#62200 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Canonical Corrobation. sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, --- Kenneth wrote: > the word kaayo pi passambhati according to the Dispeller of Delusion > < tranquillised): the mental body call the trio of aggregates becomes > tranquillised through the tranquillisation of the distress due to > defilements>> .... S: Thanks for this extra reference. I think the texts all make it pretty clear and it needs to be pointed out from time to time. Otherwise, people just read 'body' as in the anapanasati sutta or section of the Vism without realizing it refers primarily to the mental factors which are calm. I was amused by the 'milk-tree' in your other good quote. I assume it refers to some tree like a rubber tree which 'milks'. Any ideas? I thought your quote and comments from the S.T.A. intro on citta and sabhava were very good. Also, I've been enjoying your discussions with Matheesha. Here's a funny one (which I'm sure even the meditators would have found amusing!): K: "Or do we do this like telling the moment of anger dont arise first, I need to go to vipassana to know that you are impermament and suffering and dukkha. So the first two hours you are meditiating that is practising, how about the next two hours? If at the point of the next two hours you are not meditating, anger arise, will you wait for yourself the next day the two hours in practise to be in concentration to see anger as the three characteristics or do we just see it as the three characteristics." .... Also, I liked this: K: "Direct experience can be anywhere anything, even while we are watching our favourite TV show :-)." ... Tep posted a very good sutta apart being aware whilst agitated or in any other state. If you, or Tep (if reading) or anyone else can remember it, pls would you give me the link again. Also, your last comments in the same post (#61892) about your secrets and so on - somehow your posts always make me smile (even when you first joined the list and had some whacky ideas:-)). This was a good one: "And not to forget people like you because you spur us to read more, study more or learn more into the commentary and Abhidhamma :-)." True - without all the disagreements and different viewpoints, none of us would be spurred on in the same way. Well, I wouldn't! Even when there are frustrations and difficulties, it's a good time to study and learn. Finally, for now, thank you for your kind comments in another post to me, #61894. Yes, I hope you'll join us again in Bangkok sometime. Joining us in India would be super. (If you or anyone else is half-interested, let me know early). As for the dinosaur club, I'll also be happy if anyone wishes to join;-). I agree with what you say about the sutta reading and 'Meanings of the dhammas become sweeters'. With a little more understanding, we can appreciate the details more and value of them. 'Calm of body' is an example. I'll look forward to reading any of your quotes or discussions anytime, including while we're away, KenO-saur:-) Metta, Sarah ======== #62201 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner - Non-Aversion (adosa) sarahprocter... Dear Han, I just like to say that I'm delighted to see your excellent answers. They are not in the least inadequate, but very helpful indeed. I know Nina will be glad to look at the Vism point in more detail, so I'll leave it for now. I must admit that everytime I post the questions, I think of Htoo (who used to answer them)and you, with your well-considered detailed responses. Thank you so much. I was also very happy to see your other very kind letter to Nina and Lodewijk. It was very moving and I know they'll be very happy to read it as well. I'm not sure if I ever said that I thought your letter on concentration, insight and the Samadhi Sutta (#60060)was very good. I recommend it to anyone interested in this topic such as Howard, Matheesha & all of us really! Metta, Sarah ======== --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah and Nina, > > Please allow me to answer the questions on > Non-Aversion (adosa). > Please correct me if my answers are wrong or > inadequate. #62202 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 3:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner - Non-Aversion (adosa) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind words with regard to my posts. But I must say that I am not as good as Htoo. I miss him too. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, > I just like to say that I'm delighted to see your > excellent answers. They are not in the least > inadequate, but very helpful indeed. I know Nina will > be glad to look at the Vism point in more detail, so > I'll leave it for now. > > I must admit that everytime I post the questions, I > think of Htoo (who used to answer them)and you, with > your well-considered detailed responses. > Thank you so much. #62203 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 3:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XVII, 85, and Tiika. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Larry,(Rob M, Howard, Han, Suan & all), This is a late response, I know - I think I was away when it was originally posted. (#60805) I just wanted to point out to those who skipped it, that there is a wealth of detail on some Abhidhamma points that often arise here. Rob M, Howard, Han, Suan and others may be interested to take another look at it. I know Nina and Larry are always glad to hear any feedback. Here are just a few snippets I marked: 1. On hadaya-vatthu in the Abhidhamma: > N: The Tiika states with regard to: ŒThe materiality with which as their > support¹ that this is the heartbase, hadaya-vatthu. In the Pa.t.thaana > the > heartbase is designated as that ruupa. In the planes of existence where > there are five khandhas, namely nåma and rúpa, each citta needs a > physical > base or place of origin, and these are the five sense-bases and the > heartbase. This reminds us of the interdependence of nåma and rúpa from > birth to death. ***** 2. How rupas are experienced in the mind-door process > The Tiika emphasizes that the ruupas which are prenascence-condition are > classified as twofold, namely as base and as object. As to the ruupa > which > is visible object, this is the object of the cittas of the sense-door > process. The Tiika explains that it is also experienced through the > mind-door and that it is also in that case a condition by way of object > prenascence-condition. It refers to the text of the Pa.t.thaana which > states > that learners (ariyans who are not arahats) and worldlings understand > with > insight the eye as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. In this case > indeterminate (avyaakata) dhamma, namely ruupa, conditions kusala dhamma > by > way of prenascence-condition. .... S: In such a way, there can be awareness and understanding of ruupa in the mind-door process ***** 3. Also for the arahant > The Pa.t.thaana mentions separately the arahat who understands with > insight > the bases and sense objects as impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. He has > mahaakiriyacittas instead of mahaa-kusala cittas, and thus in this case > indeterminate dhamma (ruupa) conditions indeterminate dhamma > (kiriyacitta) > by way of prenascence-condition. ..... S: With just a little reflection on paccaya (conditions), we can see that it 'all hangs together'. Nothing is random or left to chance! ***** 4. Visible object as prenascence condition, not only for seeing consciousness, but also for other cittas in the sense door and following mind-door process .... N:> Visible object is not only a condition by way of prenascence for >seeing, > but > also for other cittas, for those included in the mind-element > (mano-dhaatu) > and those included in mind-consciousness-element > (mano-viññaa.na-dhaatu). > Thus, it conditions a series of cittas arising in a process. As is > mentioned > in the Pa.t.thaana, these cittas also include kusala cittas and akusala > cittas. ***** 5. It's all there in the Abhidhamma itself! .... > This shows us that in the Abhidhamma itself there is reference to > processes > of cittas. Several cittas arising in a process experience the same > object. ***** Larry & Nina, please know that even though I may be slow to read and respond, I appreciate all your work and the opportunity to reflect on the rich detail (or tapestry as Scott might put it). Metta, Sarah ======= #62204 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 4:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Development of the Theravada Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, Another late response. I was just curious about a few points which I'm not sure anyone else picked up on: --- robmoult wrote: a)> My personal view is that at the time of the first recital, held soon > after the Buddha's parinibbana, the Abhidhamma texts may not have > existed in their present form (as claimed by Buddhaghosa), .... S: Are you sure Buddhaghosa claimed this (i.e that the Abhidhamma texts existed in their present form at the first recital)? It's not what I've ever read. .... b)> Buddhaghosa's source materials have all been lost with the exception > of the Milinda Panha (Debates of King Milinda) and Upatissa's > Vimuttimagga (Path of Freedom). The Vimuttimagga has a similar > structure to Buddhaghosa's encyclopedic Visuddhimagga (Path of > Purity); both texts are structured around the themes of virtue / > concentration / wisdom (sila / samadhi / panna). .... S: I'm not sure that the Vimuttimagga can be referred to as a source material. In Malalasekera's chapter on Buddhaghosa (Pali Lit. of Ceylon), he suggests that they drew on the same source materials (ancient Sinhalese commentaries & Tipitaka), but the Vimuttimagga was also influenced by Mahayana. .... c)>The main > contribution of the Vimuttimagga to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha is the > laying out of the names and order of the thought moments in the sense > door process. The Abhidhammattha Sangaha expands on this structure by > providing quantities (such as seven javana thought moments), crafting > a mind door process and the processes for events such as rebirth and > attainments. .... S: Again, I wonder where you get this information from (about the A.S. using the Vimuttimagga as its source)? .... d)> My advice > ========= > One should view the Abhidhammattha Sangaha as it was intended – as a > starting point in the study of the Abhidhamma. Having grasped an > overview of the subject from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, one should > then proceed to study the Abhidhamma Pitaka and it will then be clear > what materials in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha were "later additions". > These later additions are not necessarily wrong or embellishments, > but they can be viewed as non-core teachings. Though non-core > teachings may be interesting to discuss, they should not distract us > from the important themes contained in the Tipitaka. .... S: As I understand, the A.S. has been considered as very core since it was written and I haven't come across anything which might be distracting from the 'important themes' in the Tipitaka. Have you?. Hope you and your family are having a good summer, Rob:-) Metta, Sarah =========== #62205 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 6:36 am Subject: Re: yatha-sabhavam (knowledge comprehends things clearly as they are) philofillet Hi Nina Thanks for the below. > It begins with the visesa lakkhana, the distinctive characteristics > of nama and rupa, before the three general characteristics can be > realized, the sama~n~na lakkha.na. > I do not have your edition, is it on line? Well, through the generosity of Rob M I received a revised edition of Abhidhammattha Sangaha that came out this year through the Buddhist Publication Society. But the part I quoted is the same as in the 2000 edition. Rob mentionned there were some points that have been revised but I don't recall what they were. Phil > Nina. > Op 4-aug-2006, om 3:06 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > > > This morning I was studying the wholesome sense-sphere citta section > > in CMA and thought the nanasampayutta/nanvippayutta dichotomy seemed > > very important. (accompanied or unaccompanied by > > understanding/knowledge) > > > > The nanasampayutta is said to refer to yatha-sabhaavam (knowledge > > comprehends things clearly as they are) > #62206 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XVII, 85, and Tiika. nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you for highlighting and reflacting on points of the Abhidhamma.It is good that you are slow to respond, so that we can look at it again after a while and not forget. It is all in the Abhidhamma as yo say. Nina. Op 5-aug-2006, om 12:53 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > In the planes of existence where > > there are five khandhas, namely nåma and rúpa, each citta needs a > > physical > > base or place of origin, and these are the five sense-bases and the > > heartbase. This reminds us of the interdependence of nåma and > rúpa from > > birth to death. > ***** > #62207 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: no Nina, No Lodewijk. nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much for your most valuable and sympathetic message. I passed it on to Lodewijk and I am sure he will appreciate it. It is most helpful to many. I hope you will write more often, people like to listen to you. With appreciation, Nina. Op 5-aug-2006, om 2:32 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > An arahant, who sees paramattha dhammas with direct > knowledge, also abides in brahma-vihara. If he sees > only paramattha dhammas, or if paramattha dhammas and > compassion do not go together, how can he radiate > metta and karuna to other beings? #62208 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/5/06 4:58:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > >Howard: > > Are you sure? ;-) > >---------------------------------------- > .... > S: lol, lol :-) > > And please keep writing your kind posts to Lodewijk - I'm sure you can > sympathise well with his frustrations listening to K.Sujin and talking to > me and others here! > ===================== Sarah, I very much appreciate your good humor and your good will! :-) With metta, Howard #62209 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 7:58 am Subject: Cetasikas. Adosa. nilovg Dear Han, I very much like and appreciate your answers and additions. I do not render them here in full, but I snipped so that the post will not be too long. ------------ Han: Question (i) Why must there be right understanding of the characteristic of loving kindness in order to develop it as a subject of calm? Answer: There must be right understanding of the characteristic of any of the 40 subjects in order to develop it as a subject of calm. ... But there is one question I would like to pose to Sarah and Nina. Nina wrote H: However, in Visuddhimagga and in some suttas I find “mettaacetovimutti” mentioned (translated as the mind-deliverance of lovingkindness in Vism, and the liberation of mind by lovingkindness in suttas). If the loving kindness is not the object of the highest stage of jhaana, I would be grateful to know how one can attain mettaacetovimutti? ------------------------------ N: In Vis. IX, 111, further explanations are given. And in Vis. 119, 120, the highest limit of each of the four Brahma vihaaras is explained. < So lovingkindness is the basic support for the liberation by the beautiful (see M.II,12; MA. III, 256), but not for what is beyond that. That is why it is called ‘having beauty as the highest.’ It is also explained [before], Cetovimutti in the highest sense is the fruition of arahatship. Those who have developed jhaana and also developed insight up to arahatship are cetovimutta and paññaavimutta. If he developed jhaana with mettaa as subject, he could attain three stages of jhaana with this subject. It is not necessary for him to develop the fourth stage of jhaana in order to become an arahat. If he was inclined to attain higher jhaanas he could take upekkhaa as meditation subject. This depends on the individual inclinations. Through the attainment of arahatship all defilements are eradicated, and is this not what is most important? Different arahats have different inclinations and skills. Some arahats did not develop all stages of jhaana, and some did not develop jhaana, they were sukkha vipassaka, they developed dry insight, insight alone. --------- H: Question (ii) Why is the "near enemy' of loving kindness attachment? Answer: In Nina’s treatise, the following paragraph provides an excellent answer to the above question. Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 10:28 am Subject: No Lodewijk, no Nina, nilovg Dear Han, Lodewijk said, most excellent, fantastic. This is exactly how he feels it is: absolute truth and conventional truth go hand in hand. Nina. #62211 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 4, 2006 6:42 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe 44. nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha taught us not to be angry with those who are unpleasant to us. We read in the Vinaya (Mahåvagga X, 349) that the Buddha said to the monks: They who (in thought) belabour this: That man has me abused, has hurt, has worsted me, has me despoiled: in these wrath is not allayed. They who do not belabour this: That man has me abused, has hurt, has worsted me, has me despoiled: in them wrath is allayed. Nay, not by wrath are wrathful moods allayed here (and) at any time, but by not-wrath are they allayed: this is an (ageless) endless rule. At times it seems impossible for us to have mettå instead of dosa. For example, when people treat us badly we may feel very unhappy and we keep on pondering over our misery. So long as dosa has not been eradicated there are still conditions for its arising. By being mindful of all realities which appear the wisdom is developed which can eventually eradicate dosa. Dosa can only be eradicated stage by stage. The sotåpanna (the streamwinner, who has attained the first stage of enlightenment) has not yet eradicated dosa and also at the subsequent stage of enlightenment, the stage of the sakadågåmí (once-returner), dosa is not yet eradicated completely. The anågåmí (the non-returner, who has attained the third stage of enlightenment) has eradicated dosa completely; he has no more latent tendency of dosa. We have not eradicated dosa, but when dosa appears, we can be mindful of its characteristic in order to know it as a type of nåma, arising because of conditions. When there is no mindfulness of dosa when it appears, dosa seems to last and we take it for self. Through mindfulness of nåmas and rúpas which present themselves one at a time, we will learn that there are different characteristics of nåma and rúpa, none of which lasts and we will also know the characteristic of dosa as only a type of nåma, not self. When a clearer understanding of realities is developed we will be less inclined to ponder for a long time over an unpleasant experience, since it is only a type of nåma which does not last. We will attend more to the present moment instead of thinking about the past or the future. We will also be less inclined to tell other people about unpleasant things which have happened to us, since that may be a condition for both ourselves and others to accumulate more dosa. When someone is angry with us we will have more understanding of his situation; he may be tired or not feeling well. Those who treat us badly deserve compassion because they actually make themselves unhappy. Right understanding of realities will help us most of all to have more loving kindness and compassion towards others instead of dosa. ***** Nina. #62212 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 10:31 am Subject: Letters from Nina 25 nilovg Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Nina van Gorkom > Datum: 4 augustus 2006 15:51:35 GMT+02:00 > Aan: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Onderwerp: Letters from Nina 25 > > Dear friends, > > Can we experience the body as it really is? Let us for a while > forget about our theoretical knowledge of the body and ask > ourselves whether there is not a bodily phenomenon now, which we > can experience directly, without having to think about it. While we > are sitting or walking, is there no hardness? Can it be experienced > now? Is there no heat or cold? Can it be experienced now, just for > a moment, without having to think about it? These are physical > elements which can be directly experienced, one at a time, through > the bodysense. > > There are many different kinds of elements. The element which is > solidity can be directly experienced as hardness or softness, when > it appears through the bodysense. Bodysense is all over the body. > In order to experience hardness and softness, we do not have to > think of the place where they appear. > > Temperature is another physical phenomenon, an element which can be > directly experienced. It can be experienced as heat or cold when it > appears through the bodysense. There is change of temperature time > and again. Is there not sometimes heat, sometimes cold? We do not > have to think about it in order to experience it. > > I have given only a few examples of bodily phenomena, (physical > elements which constitute the body). These examples may help us to > see that all the > > Buddha taught can be proven, through direct experience. Knowledge > which is developed through direct experience is clearer than > theoretical knowledge. > > The knowledge acquired through direct experience is the wisdom the > Buddha taught his disciples to develop, so that all ignorance and > clinging can be eradicated. > > ******* > Nina. #62213 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 2:05 pm Subject: Re: black mail scottduncan2 Dear connie, For now I seem to be yakkhacitta. I think I met one once long ago but this is phantasmagorical. c: "Tad Eka.m, yes. That One will be 7 soon enough... & you'll be giving blessings for his going forth. You know, the adoption... best he become a breastborn son of the Buddha. Perhaps you will follow him. I'll be kicking rocks along the shore of personality. I wonder what his name will be." Ah yes. The adoption. As in all fairy-tales, a forgetfulness falls over the hapless parent. Going forth would follow naturally. His name will change with the moment. And why tarry on such a shore? c: "...I have to get all caught up in thinking about kalapas and visible objects & wherever all I'm led off after, but something's got to colour my worldviews." Walking today and sitting in the local ravine with children and dog I found myself thinking about colour while seeing motion. All mixed up as usual. There was warmth, though. And sound. And massive conceptualisation. Can't see the forest for the trees. c: "...all the more. Or none the less..." You point this out with your magic mirror... c: "...But do we take them there things literally? I'm not sure what that means, but 'The mind which is soiled with ditthi is called ditthicitta, and one who adheres to wrong view is called a micchaditthi, a heretic. (With regard to the remaining mental factors, please note how minds and persons are named in accord with the accompanying cetasikas.)' Ashin Janakabhivamsa's ADL." See above, way above. Although that's changed again. And thanks for the link. As with hypnagogic whispers heard and more, given the above nomenclature, who knows? c: "...Maybe the outcroppings are yakkhaa (plural sp?) or maybe they are non-percipient ones or just plain old visible object painted so bhikkhus appear, truly still as they sit so much nearer the Blessed One than I, hearing on that occasion, no voice of the wild." This way of seeing leaves room for overlap. c: "disclaimer:...For dhammas are in their own nature dhammas having an own nature that is unthinkable - in some places they appear in a region in which they are interrupted by way of conditions, in some places in a region in which they are not (so) interrupted. For instance, a reflection or an echo and so on, that is arisen by way of conditions, is detected coming into being in a location such as a mirror or a mountain and so forth, (that is to say) in some region other than that in which (there was an occurrence of) the conditions (that gave rise to it) such as the face or the sound and so on; therefore one ought not to cite everything as evidence under all circumstances.>> Udaana Cy, vol 1, p138." Please say more. Echo. Reflection. Mirage. Vision. Dream. Illusion. Sound and hearing. Colour and seeing. Yakkha and yakkhacitta. Faces and sounds (it was a voice so, as usual, the sound was missed.) By the way, Mars is to be in the sky on August 27th. With loving kindness, and appreciation, Scott. #62214 From: "robmoult" Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 2:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Development of the Theravada Abhidhamma robmoult Hi Sarah, wrote: > > I was just curious about a few points which I'm not sure anyone else > picked up on: > > --- robmoult wrote: > > a)> My personal view is that at the time of the first recital, held soon > > after the Buddha's parinibbana, the Abhidhamma texts may not have > > existed in their present form (as claimed by Buddhaghosa), > .... > S: Are you sure Buddhaghosa claimed this (i.e that the Abhidhamma texts > existed in their present form at the first recital)? It's not what I've > ever read. > .... ===== In his introductory discourse of the Atthasalini, Buddhaghosa mentions the seven books being laid out in their present form (except for the Katthavatthu) during the life of the Buddha. The opening verse of this introductory discourse talks about the Abhdihamma being rehearsed at the first council by Ananda (here referred to as "the wise son of Videhi Dame". A K Warder's "Indian Buddhism" (chapter 7) says the same thing. ===== > b)> Buddhaghosa's source materials have all been lost with the exception > > of the Milinda Panha (Debates of King Milinda) and Upatissa's > > Vimuttimagga (Path of Freedom). The Vimuttimagga has a similar > > structure to Buddhaghosa's encyclopedic Visuddhimagga (Path of > > Purity); both texts are structured around the themes of virtue / > > concentration / wisdom (sila / samadhi / panna). > .... > S: I'm not sure that the Vimuttimagga can be referred to as a source > material. In Malalasekera's chapter on Buddhaghosa (Pali Lit. of Ceylon), > he suggests that they drew on the same source materials (ancient Sinhalese > commentaries & Tipitaka), but the Vimuttimagga was also influenced by > Mahayana. > .... ===== In Nanamoli's introduction to his translation of the Visuddhimagga (p xxvii), he lists the Visuddhimagga as one of the source documents for the Visuddhimagga. Nanamoli also writes, "the Vimuttimagga itself contains nothing at all of the Mahayana, its unorthodoxies being well within the 'Hinayana' field." For an example of where Buddhaghosa diagrees with the Vimuttimagga, in Vism III 74, Buddhaghosa says that there are 6 types of temperament (carita) and adds, "Some would have fourteen...". The list of fourteen is taken from Chapter 6 of the Vimuttimagga. There is an interesting portion of the introduction to the Vimuttimagga which compares it with the Visuddhimagga. ===== > c)>The main > > contribution of the Vimuttimagga to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha is the > > laying out of the names and order of the thought moments in the sense > > door process. The Abhidhammattha Sangaha expands on this structure by > > providing quantities (such as seven javana thought moments), crafting > > a mind door process and the processes for events such as rebirth and > > attainments. > .... > S: Again, I wonder where you get this information from (about the A.S. > using the Vimuttimagga as its source)? > .... ===== The Vimuttimagga is the earliest record (that I am aware of) where the seventeen thought moments are named and laid out in order. The Visuddhimagga is not quite as explicit as the Vimuttimagga in this area. In any case, the Vimuttimagga predates the Visuddhimagga. ===== > d)> My advice > > ========= > > One should view the Abhidhammattha Sangaha as it was intended – as a > > starting point in the study of the Abhidhamma. Having grasped an > > overview of the subject from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, one should > > then proceed to study the Abhidhamma Pitaka and it will then be clear > > what materials in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha were "later additions". > > These later additions are not necessarily wrong or embellishments, > > but they can be viewed as non-core teachings. Though non-core > > teachings may be interesting to discuss, they should not distract us > > from the important themes contained in the Tipitaka. > .... > S: As I understand, the A.S. has been considered as very core since it was > written and I haven't come across anything which might be distracting from > the 'important themes' in the Tipitaka. Have you?. ===== In my opinion, the seventeen thought moments is one example of a topic that is fascinating to discuss but not an 'important theme' of the Tipitaka. ===== > > Hope you and your family are having a good summer, Rob:-) > ===== Sarah, I apologize for the brief reply. Life is exceptional busy at the moment. Metta, Rob M :-) #62215 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 2:57 pm Subject: Re: Letters from Nina 25 matheesha333 Hi Nina, M: Excellent, Nina, excellent. with metta Matheesha #62216 From: Daniel Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 11:35 am Subject: Re: Bruce Lee's Jeet Kun Do As Application Of Sati ( Re: Buddhist physical exercises ) sbhtkk Hi Suan and all, Thank you for the intersting information. I am wondering about a system of "soft" exercises like yoga, or tai-chi. It seems that a person who practices mindfulness, should know his own body well, and therefore be able to develop a system of physical training which is useful just for one's own physical well being, and for one's own health. I wonder why I have not heard of a Theravada based system like that. Yours, Daniel --------------------- Posted by: "abhidhammika" suanluzaw@... abhidhammika Dear Daniel and all How are you? Daniel asked: "Are there any buddhist-based systems, perhaps physical practices in Theravada?" Burmese martial artists always base their profession on Buddhist moral principles. They won't teach you martial arts if you cannot keep Buddhist precepts - five precepts at the minimum level. You will also be required to practice mindfulness meditation (satipa.t.thaana) to move on to the advanced level. Any Asian martial artist begin to apply mindfulness practice to martial arts when they reach advanced level. As Bruce Lee explained in one of the documentaries about him, he went beyond the form of martial arts he had learnt, and trained himself to be alert and mindful at all time in his execution of movements. The Buddha said the following in Section 375, Mahaasatipat.t.thaana Suttam, Mahaavaggo, Dighanikaayo, "yathaa yathaa vaa panassa kaayo pa.nihito hoti, tathaa tathaa nam pajaanaati. "He is well aware of whatever positioning his body is in." If one can apply the above Theravada teaching of the Buddha to the physical practices such as martial arts, then one will become invincible and unreachable by one's assailants. <...> #62217 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 3:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No Lodewijk, no Nina, hantun1 Dear Nina and Lodewijk, I am very happy that you are happy with my reply. I would like to see both of you when you come to Bangkok. As Lodewijk and I are about the same age I think we will have a lot to talk about and share our experiences. With metta and respect, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > Lodewijk said, > most excellent, fantastic. This is exactly how he > feels it is: > absolute truth and conventional truth go hand in > hand. > Nina. > #62218 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 3:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna matheesha333 Hi Howard, > > M: You have got me interested. What is the Ch'an (and > > Ven.Vimalasiri's) perspective on the matter? > > > > > ==================== > It's that of a heightened state of calmness and clarity, with all the > features that are given in the suttas, but also, as in the Anupada Sutta, the > ability to exercise volition and investigate dhammas *from within jhanas*, and > not having exited from them (with the exception of the 8th). Basically, the > calmness is full and powerful, and the concentration as well, except the > concentration is a concentrating on "staying present", observing whatever arises, > but not fixed on and absorbed in a single object. All the standard jhana factors > are present, but there isn't fixed absorption. Rather, it is a "wide" > perspective. > I'm not giving that perspective it due. To get a better idea, you > should read the materials on his website, http://www.dhammasukha.org/. M: Thanks. Read the Anupada sutta. Very interesting. Yes, it is not that some form of 'sub-verbal' thinking is not possible within a jhana. Mastery over jhaana would not make sense otherwise - to attain to, stay as long as etc can only be done if there was some control. However now I am in some conflict because there was another source saying the akusala cetana was impossible in the first jhana and kusala cetana was impossible by the second (Samanamandika Sutta/MN 78). Wouldnt that mean going intentionally into the 3rd is not possible? Any thoughts? with metta, Matheesha #62219 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 11:50 am Subject: The Reality of Age (Re: [dsg] No Lodewijk, no Nina) upasaka_howard Hi, Han - In a message dated 8/5/06 6:10:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hantun1@... writes: > Dear Nina and Lodewijk, > > I am very happy that you are happy with my reply. > I would like to see both of you when you come to > Bangkok. > As Lodewijk and I are about the same age I think we > will have a lot to talk about and share our > experiences. > > With metta and respect, > Han > ====================== I happen to have seen Lodewijk's photo, and so I know that despite his looking very well and quite handsome, he is not a "kid". ;-) But I have never seen your photo, and your remark about your age has caught me by surprise and taught me three things: 1) At times, knowing people only via internet discussions has some surprising benefits, 2) Sometimes lacking certain sense-door input, visual in particular, enables the attaining of a deeper and truer knowledge in other ways, and 3) Evidently you are not the 50-year-old I had imagined! Summing up, whatever your physical age may be, your mental age is vibrantly young! :-) The same is, of course, very true of Lodewijk. With metta, Howard #62220 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 3:54 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe 44. philofillet Hi Nina and all > Right understanding of realities will help us most of all to have > more loving kindness and compassion towards others instead of dosa. There is adosa (metta) with every kusala moment, if I understand correctly. Understanding conditions the arising of metta. This is very encouraging and helps to guide us away from wanting to be people with a lot of metta and compassion. Phil #62221 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 8/5/06 6:26:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >>M: You have got me interested. What is the Ch'an (and > >>Ven.Vimalasiri's) perspective on the matter? > >> > >> > >==================== > > It's that of a heightened state of calmness and clarity, > with all the > >features that are given in the suttas, but also, as in the Anupada > Sutta, the > >ability to exercise volition and investigate dhammas *from within > jhanas*, and > >not having exited from them (with the exception of the 8th). > Basically, the > >calmness is full and powerful, and the concentration as well, > except the > >concentration is a concentrating on "staying present", observing > whatever arises, > >but not fixed on and absorbed in a single object. All the standard > jhana factors > >are present, but there isn't fixed absorption. Rather, it is > a "wide" > >perspective. > > I'm not giving that perspective it due. To get a better > idea, you > >should read the materials on his website, > http://www.dhammasukha.org/. > > M: Thanks. Read the Anupada sutta. Very interesting. Yes, it is not > that some form of 'sub-verbal' thinking is not possible within a > jhana. Mastery over jhaana would not make sense otherwise - to > attain to, stay as long as etc can only be done if there was some > control. However now I am in some conflict because there was another > source saying the akusala cetana was impossible in the first jhana > and kusala cetana was impossible by the second (Samanamandika > Sutta/MN 78). Wouldnt that mean going intentionally into the 3rd is > not possible? Any thoughts? > > with metta, > > Matheesha > > ====================== I see what you mean. It is odd. I suspect there is a problem with MN 78 or its translation or both. There are many places at which is mentioned intentionally letting go of certain less-than-perfect conditions is mentioned, enabling the "moving up" to a higher jhana. What about your own experience? Are you aware of exercising volition (or "resolve") within jhana? Of course, some people question the legitimacy of the Anupada Sutta. With metta, Howard P.S. I just now wrote Ven Vimalaramsi to solicit his opinion on this. #62222 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 4:33 pm Subject: Re: The Reality of Age (Re: [dsg] No Lodewijk, no Nina) hantun1 Dear Howard, Thank you very much for saying that my mental age is vibrantly young. But the physical age is catching up! I cannot read and write on the computer for long periods of time. Both my eyes had also been operated for cataract. They are much better now, but not as good as before. That’s one reason why I write less messages now-a-days. When I see Sarah and Jon in Bangkok, I will request them whether they can take my photograph and put it on the list. With best wishes, Han #62223 From: "rahula_80" Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 7:33 pm Subject: Chanda rahula_80 Hi, I am Pali illiterate. I hope someone can help me. Did the Buddha really said desire (chanda) have to be eliminated? From the Accestoinsight website, it says: (i) As one of the fetters (Sanyojana): AN 10.13 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.013.than.html (ii) As one of the obsessions (Anusaya): AN 7.11, AN 7.12 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.011.than.html (iii) As the cause of suffering and stress: SN 42.11 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.011.than.html (iv)~ ties down the world: SN 1.69 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.069.than.html (v) Why ~ and passion connected with the senses is worth abandoning: SN 27.1-8 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn27/sn27.001- 010.than.html (vi) Why ~ and passion connected with the khandha (aggregates) is worth abandoning: SN 27.10 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn27/sn27.001- 010.than.html#sn27.010 (vi) Why ~ and passion connected with the dhatu (elements) is worth abandoning: SN 27.9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn27/sn27.001- 010.than.html#sn27.009 On the other hand, I was told that chanda means esire, a neutral term, not necessarily bad. I have also heard of the word dhammachanda and kusalachanda. DO these words have any canonical basis? Thanks, Rahula. #62224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 9:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nilovg Hi Matheesha and Howard, I shall read the sutta, but intention in my PTS text is the translation of vitakka, the jhaanafactor thinking which is abandoned in the higher jhaanas. It is the same misunderstanding that arises when right thinking of the eightfold Path is translated by right intention, very confusing. Nina. Op 6-aug-2006, om 1:15 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I see what you mean. It is odd. I suspect there is a problem with MN > 78 or its translation or both. There are many places at which is > mentioned > intentionally letting go of certain less-than-perfect conditions is > mentioned, > enabling the "moving up" to a higher jhana. #62225 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 11:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > Hallo Sarah, Howard, all > > The way I want to understand the Noble Eightfold Path is that I had > to DO again and again the eight aspects of it. > Sarah, you say it's about 'path factors' that develop (or not). > I remember a discussion with Jon half a year ago about the NEP in > which I toke the example of 'right livelihood' in explaining > that 'right livelihood' is not something what happens if conditions > arise but is a active moral decision one had to take many moments in > one's life. > I do not agree with your use of the term 'path factors' of the NEP > .... Hallo Sarah, all One of the topics in this thread we were talking about was the meaning of the Noble Eightfold Path (NEP) Skipping subtilities I said: the NEP are eight things to do again and again. And you said: the are eight Path-moments. Now my question is: are you an ekabhisamaya and maybe I an anupubbabhisamaya ? I base this question on the (rather new for me) essay of Bhikkhu Sujato, "What the Buddha Really Taught; The Pali Âgamas and Chinese Nikâyas" A quote: "… let's consider what the Saṁyutta of the Theravâdins and the Saṁyukta of the Sarvâstivâdins tell us about how the four noble truths are realized in time. The Theravâda says that one who sees any one of the four noble truths also sees the others (SN 56.30). This sutta, which has no counterpart in the Sarvâstivâda, implies that the four truths are realized all at once. In contrast, a number of Sarvâstivâda suttas, which have no Theravâda counterparts, say that one will come to know each of the four noble truths in sequence, one after the other (SA 435-437). This relates to the disputed question of sudden (ekabhisamaya) versus gradual (anupubbabhisamaya) attainment. Appropriately, the Theravâda was a classic ekabhisamaya school, and in their Abhidhamma they developed the theory that all the four noble truths were realized in one mind moment. The Sarvâstivâdin Abhidharma argued the contrary position, that the truths were realized gradually. This dispute became one of the major sectarian battlegrounds in later Chinese Buddhism, but its roots appear already in the Saṁyuttas." Metta Joop #62226 From: han tun Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas. Adosa. hantun1 Dear Nina. Thank you very much for your kind explanation. When I raised the question on mettaa-cetovimutti, I knew what is cetovimutti and what is paññaavimutti. But I was confused by the word mettaacetovimutti, with a prefix “mettaa.” If the loving kindness is not the object of the highest stage of jhaana, how can one attain mettaacetovimutti? That was what puzzled me. With your explanation and with the help of Visuddhimagga, I understand the subject matter very well now. The prefixes ‘mettaa-‘, ‘karunaa-‘, ‘muditaa-‘, and ‘upekkhaa-‘ fixed in front of the word ‘-cetovimutti’ are just to indicate their role as ‘basic support’ (upanissaya). (1) The mind-deliverence of loving-kindness (mettaa-cetovimutti) has the beauty (subha) as the highest. Loving-kindness is the basic support (upanissaya) for the liberation by the beautiful (subha-vimokkha), but not for what is beyond that. (2) The mind-deliverence of compassion (karunaa-cetovimutti) has the base consisting of boundless space as the highest. Compassion is the basic support (upanissaya) for the sphere of boundless space, but not for what is beyond that. (3) The mind-deliverence of gladness (muditaa-cetovimutti) has the base consisting of boundless consciousness as the highest. Gladness is the basic support (upanissaya) for the base consisting of boundless consciousness, but not for what is beyond that. (4) The mind-deliverence of equanimity (upekkhaa-cetovimutti) has the base consisting of nothingness as the highest. Equanimity is the basic support (upanissaya) for the base consisting of nothingness, but not for what is beyond that. [Reference: Vism. IX. 119-123] Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: In Vis. IX, 111, further explanations are given. > And in Vis. 119, > 120, the highest limit of each of the four > Brahma vihaaras is > explained. < So lovingkindness is the basic support > for the > liberation by the beautiful (see M.II,12; MA. III, > 256), but not for > what is beyond that. That is why it is called > ‘having beauty as the > highest.’ It is also explained [before], are unrepulsive > to one who abides in lovingkindness.> > #62227 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Aug 5, 2006 11:56 pm Subject: Re: no Nina, No Lodewijk. buddhatrue Hi Nina, I am in Taiwan waiting for the time for me to board a plane for Hong Kong. It's been a few days since I checked into the messages here and I found this thread started by you. I find it to be very nice, open-minded, and concillatory, so I have decided to contribute my input. I hope it is helpful to Lodewijik. First, Lodewijik should know that he isn't alone in his difficulty to accept the teaching of anatta, in his heart; and the fact that he states this difficulty straight out, without trying to 'act' like he accepts anatta (like so many others) is a big step in the right direction. I turn for support to the Channa Sutta: "Then the thought occurred to Ven. Channa, "I, too, think that form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant; form is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is not-self, fabrications are not-self, consciousness is not-self; all fabrications are inconstant; all phenomena are not-self. But still my mind does not leap up, grow confident, steadfast, & released1 in the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the ending of craving, dispassion, cessation, Unbinding. Instead, agitation & clinging arise, and my intellect pulls back, thinking, 'But who, then, is my self?' But this thought doesn't occur to one who sees the Dhamma. So who might teach me the Dhamma so that I might see the Dhamma?" So, Ven. Channa was in the same boat that Lodewijik is in. He knows the teachings, he understands them, but his heart doesn't leap at them, his heart doesn't completely accept. Fortunately for Channa, he went to Ven. Ananda for a teaching and heard just what he needed to hear: "...May Ven. Ananda exhort me, may Ven. Ananda teach me, may Ven. Ananda give me a Dhamma talk so that I might see the Dhamma." "Even this much makes me feel gratified & satisfied with Ven. Channa, that he opens up & breaks down his stubbornness. So lend ear, friend Channa. You are capable of understanding the Dhamma." Then a sudden great rapture & joy welled up in Ven. Channa at the thought, "So I am capable of understanding the Dhamma!" This is the crucial thing!!!!! Ven Ananda gave Ven Channa encouragement that he could understand the dhamma. This is very different from the supposedly "cold showers" that KS, Sarah, and you, Nina, are so willing to give people. Rather than encourage people that they can learn and penetrate the dhamma, you and these others talk about how difficult and impossible it is! No wonder Lodewijk gets upset and frustrated-- and I do as well. There should be encouragement, not talk of difficulties, accumulations, countless lifetimes, and all that other bunk. So, what does Ven. Ananda finally teach Ven. Cunda: "Face-to-face with the Blessed One have I heard this, friend Channa. Face-to-face with him have I learned the exhortation he gave to the bhikkhu Kaccayanagotta:2 'By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by3 a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "non-existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one. "'By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on "my self." He has no uncertainty or doubt that, when there is arising, only stress is arising; and that when there is passing away, stress is passing away. In this, one's knowledge is independent of others. It is to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. "'"Everything exists": That is one extreme. "Everything doesn't exist": That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering." So, telling Lodewijk that "There is no Lodewijk" is falling into one of the extreme views that the Buddha taught against. Stop telling Lodewijk that he doesn't exist and he will be fine. He will be able to accept the Buddha's teachings as they were intended. But, Nina, if you want Lodewijk to accept the idea that he doesn't exist, and you want advice on how to do that, you are looking for the wrong thing. Lodewijk is too wise for that. Maybe you should consider the possibility that it isn't Lodewijk who needs the assistance learning the dhamma, (no offense) it is you. Metta, James #62228 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 1:49 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 508- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (tranquillity/calm) There are many degrees of calm. When we are generous or observe the moral precepts there is calm of cetasikas and of citta. At such moments there is no restlessness, agitation or worry. The feeling which accompanies the kusala citta is also calm. We may notice the difference between pleasant feeling which accompanies attachment and pleasant feeling which accompanies generosity; these feelings have different qualities. Those who have accumulated inclinations for higher degrees of calm can develop it if there is right understanding which knows precisely the characteristic of calm. Those who are able to cultivate samatha and attain jhåna experience a high degree of calm since there are at the moments of jhåna no sense impressions and thus no enslavement to them. However, even the calm of the highest stage of jhåna cannot eradicate defilements. They will arise again after the jhånacittas have fallen away. ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #62229 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 2:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi jonoabb Hi Mateesha matheesha wrote: >>J: In other words, samadhi is not a quality that is >>kusala in and of itself. So kusala samadhi (i.e., >>the kind that is to be developed, the kind referred >>to in all the suttas except where miccha samadhi is >>specified) can only arise with a citta that is kusala, >>that is to say, that is a moment of dana, sila or >>bhavana (samatha or vipassana). >> >M: Yes, I think we can lay that matter to rest now - it is clear and >I agree. > Glad we have managed to agree on something ;-)). There is no 'samadhi citta' per se, there are only cittas that are accompanied by samadhi. >M: Sorry for using unconventional terminology. To clarify - samadhi >is a quality of a citta - and in samatha that citta is focused on a >single object (of meditation) most of the time. The citassaekaggata- >the one-pointedness - is directed towards the obejct of meditation. >(Its clunky to have to say it piece by piece - it is clear >immediately when you actually do it). > I appreciate that you are used to talking about being 'in samatha', but samatha encompasses much more than a directed practice. For example, whenever another being is an object of our consciousness (and that is a large part of the day for most of us), the citta will be either kusala or akusala and, if it's kusala, then there must be metta, karuna, mudita or upekkha present. Such moments are moments of samatha, as I understand the 3-fold classification of kusala into dana, sila and bhavana. So let's just say that the mental factor of samadhi takes the same object as the citta it accompanies. Samadhi preforms its function regardless of whether the citta is taking the same object as the previous moment of consciousness or is taking a different object. >Experientially - if one stops >meditating (samatha) then the citta with samadhi remains focued on >whatever comes to it's grasp longer (ie-gives rise to more moments >of similar citta) than it would otherwise. Or to put it in another >way, it is less distracted and not jumping to other novel stimuli. > The idea that when one is no longer 'in samatha' the concentration factor carries over into one's daily life is another of those often-heard assertions that cannot actually be found stated in the texts. And when you think about it for a moment, what kind of cittas would these be? If it's no longer samatha, it can hardly be kusala (again, this means dana, sila or bhavana), so does that mean it would have to be aksuala? These are questions we need to consider. I am not doubting your experience of 'less distracted' states of mind, nor your dedication and commitment, but I think one needs to be sure that one's practice has a solid basis in the teachings. It is so easy for subtle akusala to be taken as the calm of kusala. Come to that, how is the distinction between those 2 mind-states to be known, would you say? >>In brief, insight 'based on' jhana means that the >>immediately fallen away jhana citta is taken as the >>object of a moment of insight consciousness. But I >>think we should leave aside the yuganaddha situation >>for the time being, as it is a special case. >> > >M: Well jhana can be taken as an object of insight. But why climb a >mountain if it can be had at the base? Any moment can be similarly >used. There is something more here. Why is the 4th jhana a good base >for vipassana? I think the visuddhimagga would say that equanimity >that it has is uesful for vipassana. That is not simply looking back >at a moment gone by, but useful in experiencing the current moment. > > If you have a reference for the Visuddhimagga passage that says this I'd be interested in following up on it. >I dont think the yuganaddha can be kept aside. It is the first one >in the four paths leading to enlightenment. Jhana is well praised by >the Buddha. It is part of the 'sukkha magga' to nibbana. It is part >of samma samadhi. We need to accept samatha as a definite part of >practice. > > I agree that jhana is well praised by the Buddha; absolutely no question about that. But that does not tell us its precise role in the development of insight. As I recall, we have agreed in a previous post that samatha/jhana is not a prerequisite to the development of insight. There are, however, other factors that *are* a prerequisite to the development of insight (and I would rather be discussing those ;-)) You say that yuganaddha is the first of the four paths leading to enlightenment. Sorry, I'm not with you here. Could you explain what you have in mind? Thanks. I'll break here and continue with the rest of your post in a separate message. Jon #62230 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Development of the Theravada Abhidhamma sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, Thanks for your prompt response when you're so busy. > > S: Are you sure Buddhaghosa claimed this (i.e that the Abhidhamma > texts > > existed in their present form at the first recital)? It's not what > I've > > ever read. > > .... > > ===== > > In his introductory discourse of the Atthasalini, Buddhaghosa > mentions the seven books being laid out in their present form (except > for the Katthavatthu) during the life of the Buddha. > > The opening verse of this introductory discourse talks about the > Abhdihamma being rehearsed at the first council by Ananda (here > referred to as "the wise son of Videhi Dame". > > A K Warder's "Indian Buddhism" (chapter 7) says the same thing. .... S: Ok, I understand what you are saying with regard to form and I agree. I was thinking of form as in format more. At the First Council, much of the Abhidhamma was in the Khuddakanikaya of the Sutta Nikaya. Some of the commentaries were included, but others added before later councils and final 'cut-off' or 'closure' of the Pali Canon. Here's another quote of Malalasekera's in the same book I mentioned: "It must be borne in mind that these commentaries were not compiled in the modern sense of the word, nor did any commentaries, such as Buddhaghosa himself wrote later, exist in the Buddha's lifetime or immediately after his death. So that, when Buddhaghosa mentions, in the opening stanzas of the Samangala-vilasini, that the commentary to the Digha-Nikaya ws at the first council rehearsed by 500 holy Elders, we may assume that he means, that at this meeting the *meanings* to be attached to the various terms - particularly to those that appear to have been borrowed from Hindu philosophy - were discussed and properly defined. This removes the dificulty of conceiving the contemporaneous existence of the commentaries and the Pitakas from the very earliest times. Such definitions and fixations of meaning formed the nucleus of the later commentaries. The Elders had discussed the important terms at the First Council, and had decided on the method of interpreting and teaching the more recondite doctrines." ..... > > S: I'm not sure that the Vimuttimagga can be referred to as a source > > material. In Malalasekera's chapter on Buddhaghosa (Pali Lit. of > Ceylon), > > he suggests that they drew on the same source materials (ancient > Sinhalese > > commentaries & Tipitaka), but the Vimuttimagga was also influenced > by > > Mahayana. > > .... > ===== > > In Nanamoli's introduction to his translation of the Visuddhimagga (p > xxvii), he lists the Visuddhimagga as one of the source documents for > the Visuddhimagga. Nanamoli also writes, "the Vimuttimagga itself > contains nothing at all of the Mahayana, its unorthodoxies being well > within the 'Hinayana' field." .... S: (you mean the Vimuttimagga above). I don't think Nanamoli does quite say the Vimuttimagga was 'one of the source documents for the Visuddhimagga'. What he says is that the material in both 'suggests that they both drew a good deal from the same sources.' Nowhere does Buddhaghosa refer to the Vimuttimagga when he refers to his various sources. He's clearly aware of the ideas (where they differ) that are found in the Vimuttimagga, however. These were presumably prevalent ideas at the time. .... > > For an example of where Buddhaghosa diagrees with the Vimuttimagga, > in Vism III 74, Buddhaghosa says that there are 6 types of > temperament (carita) and adds, "Some would have fourteen...". The > list of fourteen is taken from Chapter 6 of the Vimuttimagga. > > There is an interesting portion of the introduction to the > Vimuttimagga which compares it with the Visuddhimagga. .... S: I don't have the Vimuttimagga btw. On carita - well, we could say there are thousands and millions in the sense that lobha, for example, can be divided and sub-divided indefinitely into various 'types'. No lobha is the same:-) .... > > > S: Again, I wonder where you get this information from (about the > A.S. > > using the Vimuttimagga as its source)? > > .... > ===== > > The Vimuttimagga is the earliest record (that I am aware of) where > the seventeen thought moments are named and laid out in order. The > Visuddhimagga is not quite as explicit as the Vimuttimagga in this > area. In any case, the Vimuttimagga predates the Visuddhimagga. > .... S: This is all very logical, but I think it's speculative and somewhat jumping to conclusions. The ancient commentaries preceded the Vimuttimagga and we don't know exactly when they were destroyed. Also, as Nina and I have written before, all the detail of the 17 cittas can be extracted from the Abhidhamma and commentaries (based on the earlier Sinhalese ones) in the Mahavihara tradition. .... > > S: As I understand, the A.S. has been considered as very core since > it was > > written and I haven't come across anything which might be > distracting from > > the 'important themes' in the Tipitaka. Have you?. > > ===== > > In my opinion, the seventeen thought moments is one example of a > topic that is fascinating to discuss but not an 'important theme' of > the Tipitaka. .... S: I'm sure many/most people would agree with you. However, if there's no understanding of rapidly succeeding cittas in the sense and mind door processes and of cittas as elements, I think we're likely to go on thinking that we can see and hear at the same time and most the time for that matter. Also, we'll go on thinking that emotional states last and that somehow we can control the show, for example. Understanding a little more about the theory of cittas and processes helps break down some of these erroneous ideas, don't you think? ... > Sarah, I apologize for the brief reply. Life is exceptional busy at > the moment. .... S: No need to apologize and no need to respond. I know you're a busy man. Thx for showing your 'face'. Sorry you can't join our get-together with James tomorrow. That would have been nice:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #62231 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] When the 7 becomes 14 ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, (Ken O, Daniel & all), I'm appreciating this series. Just to continue with the earlier discussion a little: --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > There is Energy of the body (vigour & strength) and Energy of the mind > (keen enthusiasm). > Both kinds of Energy are links leading to Enlightenment > (viriya-sambojjhanga). .... S: I hadn't seen energy (viriya) divided before. Again, I assume it is referring to energy of the (sobhana)mental factors and of citta. Do you have any commentary note? ..... <...> > There is calm Tranquillity of the body and there is serene Tranquillity > of the mind. > Both kinds of Tranquillity are links leading to Enlightenment > (passaddhi-sambojjhanga). .... S: Again, BB gives a commentary note to his translation which "explains tranquillity of body (kaayappasaddhi) as the tranquillizing of distress in the three aggregrates (feeling, perception, volitional formations), tranquillity of mind (cittappassaddhi) as the tranquillizing of distress in the aggregrate of consciousness." In a way, James was right when he suggested that I'm picking on this detail to show that I don't believe that meditation in the sense of quiet, still body, focus on movements and so on has anything to do with the development of calm as an enlightenment factor at any time. Often, it's these very passages which are picked out to support such an idea. This reminds me of Daniel's message about why there aren't any references to particular kinds of exercise such as yoga in the Theravada texts. Simply, the teachings are for anyone inclined to listen, regardless of time, place, activity, busy or still body, agile and focussed or clumsy and unfocussed. Daniel, I say all this in spite of having done yoga and Tai Chi for years and years and recommending them to others. What I've never said or believed, however, is that they have anything whatsoever to do with the path. Awareness can develop whether one is doing yoga or watching one's favourite TV show:-). Ven Samahita (and others), I'd be grateful for any further comments and especially for any further commentary details to the excellent sutta above. Daniel, how does this sound? With respect and metta, Sarah ========== #62232 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 4:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the latest distortion sarahprocter... Hi Connie, ....and this was certainly the right icy-cold shower at the right time for Bahiya - ouch!: --- connie wrote: >Approached (ten'upasa"nkami): just as a strong man might > > stretch out a contracted arem, or contract an outstretched arm, just to > > did he disappear in the Brahmaloka and approach by way of appearing > before > Baahiya. Uttered this (etad avoca): the Brahmaa uttered this utterance > now > on the point of being uttered commencing with "You, Baahiya, are > certainly > no arahant", as if seizing a robber together with the goods, to Baahiya > to > whom the false reflection of "Whoever there be in this world who are > arahants" and so on had occurred. [83] You, Baahiya, are certainly no > arahant (n'eva kno tva.m Baahiya arhaa): by this means he rejects > asekkha > status for Baahiya at that time. Nor even one who has attained the > arahant-path (n'aapi arahattamagga.m vaa samaapanno): by this means (he > > rejects) sekkha status; whilst by means of both he elucidates his status > > to be completely non-ariyan. Nor is this practice of yours one by which > > you could become an arahant or one who has attained the arahant-path > (saa > pi te pa.tipadaa n'atthi yaaya tva.m arahaa vaa assa arahattamagga.m vaa > > samaapanno): whereas in this way he rejects even the status of the > virtuous puthujjana for him. >> .... S: So there he is - one minute an arahant and the next not even a 'virtuous puthujjana'. And the rest is history, as they say. Bahiya took off at unbelievable speed to seek out the Buddha. Enjoy your riddles with Scott. I'm amazed at his ability to adapt to the lingo or whoever he's conversing with, like a chameleon changing its colours so naturally. (Scott, that's all meant in a complimentary sense - I've tried once or twice to talk riddles with Connie, but I collapsed in exhaustion as I tried to keep up with her quick wit. You obviously have the 'touch':-)). Metta and thanks for all the good and apt quotes. The Net tapestry was a gem. Sarah ======== #62233 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 4:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe 44, snippet for Phil. nilovg Hi Phil (and Howard), when I read this to Lodewijk, he approved, he did not have any problem at all. He has no problems with ADL. I thought of you when listening to audio Nalanda 2. It is very good, you would appreciate it. Comment: we may think about the Dhamma, about nama and rupa, don't we do that all the time? I am bound to forget that thinking is not the teaching, and therefore I appreciate it that Kh Sujin always comes back to seeing now. It may seem monotonous, but we are seeing now and we know so little about it, as: not I who sees, only a nama. We may repeat this, but that is again thinking. It takes time! Then about awareness, but I see that red lights start to burn. Howard, this is in the ultimate sense: I appreciate Howard's balanced post, his post scriptum to Sarah. Howard and I are both thinking how to help, how to prevent misunderstandings as to ultimate sense and conventional sense. There were conditions for awareness: the listening, considering which is quite an effort (conventional!). But then there is the actual moment of sati in the ultimate sense: it is with kusala citta, and each kusala citta is accompanied by detachment. Thanks to the Abhidhamma we get some idea of the different kusala cittas and akusala cittas arising in processes. I for one know that kusala arises very seldom and that attachment arises very, very often. Attachment in the form of expectations, hoping, wanting to directly experience the truth. Every slight attempt with lobha, even hardly noticeable lobha, goes counter to sati. So I can appreciate what Kh Sujin says here. If we give up any idea of trying to have sati (it is always lobha!) then we can see that sometimes it can arise unexpectedly. I agree with Sayadaw Sitagu that the Abhidhamma and Vipassana go hand in hand. Nina. Op 6-aug-2006, om 0:54 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Right understanding of realities will help us most of all to have > > more loving kindness and compassion towards others instead of dosa. > > There is adosa (metta) with every kusala moment, if I understand > correctly. Understanding conditions the arising of metta. This is very > encouraging and helps to guide us away from wanting to be people > with a > lot of metta and compassion. #62234 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 5:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: no Nina, No Lodewijk. nilovg Hi James, Thank you for your kind and considerate post. I appreciate the sutta you quote. Of course I need assistance learning the Dhamma, I am sooo in need of this! I told Lodewijk about your post and he said that he never had a cold shower from me. I read ADL to him every night and when I read out: more loving kindness and compassion towards others instead of dosa> he fully agreed. He said that he has no problems with ADL. nor with my letters. We all try our best to explain the Dhamma and do this in our own way, we are all different. It is in my nature not to make the medicine too bitter, but there are also people who like it to be as bitter as possible. We are not the same. I appreciate it that you took the trouble to write while waiting at the airport, even finding this sutta and I hope that everything will run smoothly for you. Nina. Op 6-aug-2006, om 8:56 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > So, telling Lodewijk that "There is no Lodewijk" is falling into one > of the extreme views that the Buddha taught against. Stop telling > Lodewijk that he doesn't exist and he will be fine. He will be able > to accept the Buddha's teachings as they were intended. But, Nina, > if you want Lodewijk to accept the idea that he doesn't exist, and > you want advice on how to do that, you are looking for the wrong > thing. Lodewijk is too wise for that. Maybe you should consider > the possibility that it isn't Lodewijk who needs the assistance > learning the dhamma, (no offense) it is you. #62235 From: Daniel Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 4:58 am Subject: Re: Letters from Nina 25 sbhtkk Dear Nina, For me personally "hardness" or "softness" is not the best way to describe my bodily experience. When I squeeze the tip of nose, or when I squeeze my computer mouse, there seems to be a different feeling of "soft" versus "hard". But when I look at the feeling more deeply, I see that it is not really in the nose, or in the mouth, but it is sensed inside my hand. It is just muscular tension. When I squeeze something soft there is a different feeling of muscular tension than the one when I squeeze something hard. It seems to be a feeling of the muscles actually. I read in a book that hunger and thirst are also bodily sensations. Though in the west we are not used to think about them is such, it makes sense. Hunger for example is a bodily sensation felt in a specific place inside the body - not in one's own nose! Yours, Daniel #62236 From: Daniel Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 4:48 am Subject: Re: How Faith, Truth and Wisdom are Related sbhtkk Hi, It is interesting. Sometimes I believe in a certain sentence, that it is true, because a person I respect said so. Then, time passes, and I have some experience which also can be described by the same sentence. So I also think that this sentence is true, but it is somehow different. What are the differences between the different two ways of "thinking a sentence to be true"? I try to think about it, so I can identify more easily what is my mode of thinking in specific cases. If someone would say an opposite opinion, in the first case, I would still disagree. However, I would probably feel angry at the person "why don't you agree with me? you should respect the opinion which I respect". In the second case, I could consider his opinion to be true, I could think about it. Probably anger would not arise. Also, in the first case, I would not know the exact measure. For example, I believe because people I respect told me that the earth is moving around the sun. But if I am to think "with what velocity? Since what time? ", I am bound to go back to the person and ask. I do not know how to investigate it. However, I believe that if I would know the reason, I cold try to investigate it somehow. Another issue, which I think is my biggest problem right now, is that in the first case there is fear involved. "How can I disagree with a person that is so smart, or so moral. Probably it means that I am stupid, or that I am arrogant, or that I am immoral. " I still have a belief in a creator God, and there is definitely fear involved there "How can I disagree with my creator? ". On the other hand, on the second case no fear is involved of course. Well, these are my thoughts. I would be glad to hear responses since I feel that there are additional differences between thinking a sentence after you came to a conclusion yourself, and because another person said so, which I have not identified yet. Yours, Daniel > Excerpt: How Faith, Truth and Wisdom Are Related ..... > TDEditor : To blindly stick to faith that something is definitely true > is to destroy truthfulness - even if that believed in is absolutely > true. Being open-minded when unsure preserves truth and truthfulness, > thus safeguarding the integrity of one's spiritual path. Having faith > about something being the truth is not yet being one with truth > itself, while to realise the truth is to cultivate true faith. Strong > faith might be based on strong delusions. Thus, truly strong faith is > strong because it is based on personal experience, based on actual > knowing and seeing of the truth, of the way things truly are; it is > not based on mere belief. While we might not realise the whole truth > straightaway, we can cultivate wisdom to realise more and more facets > of the truth. #62237 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 6:16 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 45 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 7 Ignorance We may know when we have akusala cittas rooted in lobha (attachment) or akusala cittas rooted in dosa (aversion), but do we know when we have akusala cittas rooted in moha (ignorance)? What is the characteristic of moha? We may think someone ignorant who does not have much education, who does not speak foreign languages, who does not know anything about history or politics. We call someone ignorant who does not know what is happening in the world. Is that the kind of ignorance which should be eradicated? If that were true it would mean that there is more wholesomeness in one's life if one speaks foreign languages or if one knows about history and politics. We can find out that this is not true. In order to understand the characteristic of moha we should know what we are ignorant of when there is moha. There is the world of concepts which in our daily, ordinary language are denoted by conventional terms and there is the world of paramattha dhammas or ultimate realities. When we think of the concept which in conventional language is denoted by ``world'', we may think of people, animals and things and we call them by their appropriate names. But do we know the phenomena in ourselves and around ourselves as they really are: only nåma and rúpa which do not last? The world of paramattha dhammas is real. Nåma and rúpa are paramattha dhammas. The nåmas and rúpas which appear in our daily life can be directly experienced through the five sense-doors and the mind-door, no matter how we name them. This is the world which is real. When we see, there is the world of visible object. When we hear, there is the world of sound. When we experience an object through touch there is the world of tangible object. Visible object and seeing are real. Their characteristics cannot be changed and they can be directly experienced; it does not matter whether we call them ``visible object'' and ``seeing'', or whether we give them another name. But when we cling to concepts which are denoted by conventional terms such as ``tree'' or ``chair'', we do not experience any characteristic of reality. ****** Nina. #62238 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 6:20 am Subject: Letters from Nina 26 nilovg Dear friends, Not only bodily elements arise and fall away, also what we call mind arises and falls away, each moment. There is not a mind or a soul which 'exists', there is only a moment of consciousness now, and this falls away to be succeeded by the next moment. There may be thinking now, but it falls away to be succeeded by the next moment. Don't we think then of this, then of that? Thinking never stays the same. Can we control our thinking? Now we may have attachment, then aversion, then a moment of generosity. Is there generosity all the time? It falls away and very closely afterwards there may be pride, or stinginess. What we call mind are many different elements which arise and then fall away immediately. There is actually birth and death of consciousness, time and again, all through life. Thus, we may understand that what we call in conventional language 'dying' is in fact not different from what takes place each moment of our life. The Buddha and the disciples who had attained supreme perfect enlightenment felt no grief about anything, whatever happened to them. We have not attained enlightenment and thus we feel deep grief when those who are dear to us die, and at times we think with fear of our own death. Does the Buddha have a message for us who are only beginners on his Path? The Buddha has a message for all those who are afflicted by grief and are disturbed by the thought of death. He teaches us to develop clear comprehension of the present moment. The wisdom the Buddha taught to develop is knowledge acquired from direct experience of the physical elements and mental elements of which our life consists. Mental elements are moments of consciousness, feelings and other mental qualities such as anger and attachment. ****** Nina. #62239 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 6:27 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe 44, snippet for Phil. philofillet Hi Nina > I thought of you when listening to audio Nalanda 2. It is very good, > you would appreciate it. I do - near the steps of the university. I am finding favourite talks from India 2005. There is one *very* good one about sanna, led by Jon mostly. But I have misplaced the CD Rom (it will reappear) so am mostly listening to Phra Dhammadaro these days. > > to their understanding, their life, their accumulations. They believe > that only thinking is enough, but this is not the teaching. It takes > time to understand reality right now.> I am feeling less uptight about "should" and "understand now" and that sort of thing. One of the "letters to Nina", yesterday maybe, was on the importance of direct understanding, direct experience, as the key. Part of me said "yes, that's fine, but direct experience is not something we can have so easily." The other part of me was encouraged and stirred to study hard the present moment, develop that habit. > Comment: we may think about the Dhamma, about nama and rupa, don't we > do that all the time? These days I am thoroughly obsessed with baseball. I think about it all the time. I even write and rewrite the lineup of players on the New York Yankees team in the margin of CMA when I try to study, things like that. It's quite insane. But there is nothing to be done about that - I am riding it out, looking at my accumulations. I find it funny and don't fret. There is also Dhamma^related consideration at other times. >I am bound to forget that thinking is not the > teaching, and therefore I appreciate it that Kh Sujin always comes > back to seeing now. It may seem monotonous, but we are seeing now and > we know so little about it, as: not I who sees, only a nama. Never monotonous. Too brief and subtle to be monotonous. I find it to be a very fascinating topic - there is always seeing and visible object to be considered. I liked what Scott wrote the other day about his hiking trip. It reminded me of Rob K's famous post about hiking in New Zealand. Phil: > > > > There is adosa (metta) with every kusala moment, if I understand > > correctly. Understanding conditions the arising of metta. This is very > > encouraging and helps to guide us away from wanting to be people > > with a > > lot of metta and compassion. Ph: BTW, I was thinking more about this as I walked. Also alobha with every kusala moment. It is not so radical for Acharn Sujin to say there must be detachment from the beginning. Because there *is* detachment from the beginning at moments of kusala. I think I have sounded harsh and strident on the topic of "no Nina" especially in the disparaging-sounding comments about Lodewijk not understanding. But of course you know I always write off the top of my head and something I write at one moment is just the proliferation of that moment. Different Phil at every moment. Usually quite strident because of being a fanatical neophyte! :) Phil #62240 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Development of the Theravada Abhidhamma nilovg Dear Sarah and Rob M, I would like to add: details of the cittas arising in processes can be found also in the Path of Discrimination, the Patisambhidamagga of the Khuddaka Nikaya. If we would not learn about the different processes which follow upon each other extremely rapidly we would have misunderstandings about vipassana. We would not know how there can be mindfulness of akusala that arose in a previous process. We could not understand that the first stage of insight, knowing the difference beteen nama and rupa arises in a mind-door process. We would not know that nama can be clearly understood as nama at the first stage of insight knowledge, when it is directly realized by pa~n~naa what a mind-door process is. Nina. Op 6-aug-2006, om 11:32 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Also, as Nina and I > have written before, all the detail of the 17 cittas can be > extracted from > the Abhidhamma and commentaries (based on the earlier Sinhalese > ones) in > the Mahavihara tradition. #62241 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe 44, snippet for Phil. nilovg Hi Phil, don't worry, but you don't worry I can add. I understand you. Lodewijk just said that he did not quite get your message. What is Rob K's post about his hiking in New Zealand? Yes I liked Scott's post about hiking in the valley. Nina. Op 6-aug-2006, om 15:27 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I think I have sounded harsh and strident on the topic of "no > Nina" especially in the disparaging-sounding comments about Lodewijk > not understanding. #62242 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 7:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina 25 nilovg Dear Daniel, Again, we have to be careful: are we talking in conventional sense or in the ultimate sense? I understand your point of view, you look at phenomena in the conventional way. I do not deny conventional truth, but it is a point of view different from ultimate truth. I was explaining ultimate realities as taught in the Abhidhamma. These can be directly experienced, without the need to name them, without thinking of a certain place of the body. The aim of this point of view is the development of direct awareness of phenomena so that there will be less clinging to my body, my mind. Thinking of muscular tension will not help us to become detached from the idea of my body. Seeing realities as elements arising because of their own conditions, without ownership of a self will help us to cling less. Thus, if we do not think of any place of the body, we may learn that there is indeed softness or hardness, motion or pressure, heat or cold, that can be directly experienced without giving them any names. But if we try to hold on to them, or think about them, the reality is thinking. We all think, but we can learn that thinking is not the experience of bodily phenomena. Your questions are good, they touch on very essential things. Nina. Op 6-aug-2006, om 13:58 heeft Daniel het volgende geschreven: > But when I look at the feeling more deeply, I see that it is not > really in the > nose, or in the mouth, but it is sensed inside my hand. It is just > muscular > tension. When I squeeze something soft there is a different feeling > of muscular > tension than the one when I squeeze something hard. It seems to be > a feeling of > the muscles actually. > > I read in a book that hunger and thirst are also > bodily > sensations. Though in the west we are not used to think about them > is such, it > makes sense. Hunger for example is a bodily sensation felt in a > specific place > inside the body - not in one's own nose! > #62243 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Matheesha) - > I shall read the sutta, but intention in my PTS text is the > translation of vitakka, the jhaanafactor thinking which is abandoned > in the higher jhaanas. > It is the same misunderstanding that arises when right thinking of > the eightfold Path is translated by right intention, very confusing. > Nina. > ======================= Thank you, Nina. The "problem", however, in MN 78, doesn't lie with the cessation of vittaka and vicara, but with kusala and akusala "resolve". The parts of MN 78 that are relevant are the following: And what are unskillful resolves? Being resolved on sensuality, on ill will, on harmfulness. These are called unskillful resolves. What is the cause of unskillful resolves? Their cause, too, has been stated, and they are said to be perception-caused. Which perception? — for perception has many modes & permutations. Any sensuality-perception, ill will-perception or harmfulness-perception: That is the cause of unskillful resolves. Now where do unskillful resolves cease without trace? Their cessation, too, has been stated: There is the case where a monk, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This is where unskillful resolves cease without trace.       and And what are skillful resolves? Being resolved on renunciation (freedom from sensuality), on non-ill will, on harmlessness. These are called skillful resolves. What is the cause of skillful resolves? Their cause, too, has been stated, and they are said to be perception-caused. Which perception? — for perception has many modes & permutations. Any renunciation-perception, non-ill will-perception or harmlessness-perception: That is the cause of skillful resolves. Now where do skillful resolves cease without trace? Their cessation, too, has been stated: There is the case where a monk, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. This is where skillful resolves cease without trace. With metta, Howard #62244 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 7:18 am Subject: Re: The Reality of Age (Re: [dsg] No Lodewijk, no Nina) nilovg Hi Howard, :-)) It is not so easy to take when all the persons of the same year one had known at the University die, or have Altzheimer. He looks at photos and sees that most of them have died. But of course, it is essential to come to understand momentary birth and death, the arising and falling away of each citta (this is not convential). I think this could become quite natural: changing from conventional truth to ultimate truth backwards and forwards, each second. Nina. Op 6-aug-2006, om 0:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Summing up, whatever your physical age may be, your mental age is > vibrantly > young! :-) The same is, of course, very true of Lodewijk. #62245 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 7:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] No Lodewijk, no Nina, nilovg Dear Han, definitely, it will be a great pleasure. It will only be next year in January. Nina. Op 6-aug-2006, om 0:10 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I would like to see both of you when you come to > Bangkok. > As Lodewijk and I are about the same age I think we > will have a lot to talk about and share our > experiences. #62246 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 3:27 am Subject: Channa Sutta/James upasaka_howard Hi, James - Have good travels! James, thank you for referencing the Channa Sutta! It must be the first time I have read it, and I am excited in its quoting the Kaccayanagotta Sutta, especially in the context of *how to learn the Dhamma*! The Kaccayanagotta is one of the suttas that are of primary value to me, of ultimate value to me. Never before have I seen it referenced in another sutta, and here it is not only referenced, but it is done so in order to get across a clear understanding of the Dhamma! Excellent!! :-) With metta, Howard #62247 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 6:26 am Subject: Re: Mental factors behind Bodily Calm! bhikkhu_ekamuni Some comments inspired by Ven. Ledi Sayadaw: What is the mental factors (cetasika) behind bodily calm? 1: It is calm of feeling (vs. feeling burning pain will induce bodily unrest) 2: It is calm of perception (vs. experience of burning finger will induce bodily unrest) 3: It is calm of mental construction (vs. constructing the wish to flee will induce bodily unrest) This is IMHO perfectly consistent with both text & all commentary. PS: Sarah do you train sitting meditation? -- vandana Friendship is the Greatest... Bhikkhu Samahita <...> #62248 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 10:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the latest distortion scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, connie will be the final arbitrator... S: "Enjoy your riddles with Scott. I'm amazed at his ability to adapt to the lingo or whoever he's conversing with, like a chameleon changing its colours so naturally. (Scott, that's all meant in a complimentary sense - I've tried once or twice to talk riddles with Connie, but I collapsed in exhaustion as I tried to keep up with her quick wit. You obviously have the 'touch':-))." I chalk it up to a certain cockiness because years ago I was one of the first in the world to discover that Paul was, in fact, not dead because it was John who was, in fact, the Walrus. With loving kindness, Scott. #62249 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nilovg Hi Howard, Now this does not solve the translation problem. The Pali has sankappo, which is vitakka cetasika. It is a synonym of vitakka (Nyanatiloka dict) Think of sammaasankappa of the eightfold Path: right thinking. This is in your text: resolves, in PTS intentions, by B.B. habits. Because of all these translations the confusion is complete. Transl by Sister Upalavanna (Rob K's forum Vipassana): Carpenter, what are thoughts of demerit? Sensual thoughts, angry thoughts and hurting thoughts, are thoughts of demerit. Where do these thoughts of demerit arise? They arise from perceptions, is the reply. What are perceptions? Perceptions are also various and different. They are sensual perceptions, angry perceptions, and hurting perceptions. Thoughts of demerit arise from these perceptions. Carpenter, where do these thoughts of demerit cease completely? Their cessation too is told. Here, the bhikkhu secluded from sensual thoughts ---abides in the first jhana. Here, all thoughts of demerit cease completely. Carpenter, fallen to what method is the ceasing of thoughts of demerit? Here, carpenter, the bhikkhu arouses interest and effort to push the mind forward with endeavour for the non arising of not arisen thoughts of demerit. The bhikkhu arouses interest and effort to push the mind forward with endeavour to dispel arisen thoughts of demerit. The bhikkhu arouses interest and effort to push the mind forward with endeavour for the arousing of not arisen thoughts of merit. The bhikkhu arouses interest and effort to push the mind forward with endeavour for the undeluded stabilisation, growth, development and completion of arisen thoughts of merit. Carpenter, the bhikkhu falls to this method, for the cessation of thoughts of demerit.. Carpenter, what are thoughts of merit? Non-sensual thoughts, non- angry thoughts and not hurting thoughts are thoughts of merit. Carpenter, where do these thoughts of merit arise?.There arising is also told, they arise in perceptions, is the reply. What are perceptions? Perceptions are also various and different, non-sensual perceptions, non-angry perceptions and non-hurting perceptions. From these arise thoughts of merit. Carpenter, where do these thoughts of merit cease without a remainder. Carpenter, their cessation is also told. Here, carpenter, the bhikkhu, overcoming thoughts and thought processes –re—attained to abide in the second jhana. Here all thoughts of merit cease without a remainder. Carpenter, fallen to what method, is the cessation of thoughts of merit? Here, carpenter, the bhikkhu arouses interest and effort to push the mind forward with endeavour for the not arising of not arisen thoughts of demerit. The bhikkhu arouses interest and effort, to push the mind forward with endeavour to dispel arisen thoughts of demerit. The bhikkhu arouses interest and effort to push the mind forward with endeavour to arouse not arisen thoughts of merit. The bhikkhu arouses interest and effort, to push the mind forward with endeavour for the undeluded stabilisation, growth, development and completion of arisen thoughts of merit. Carpenter, the bhikkhu falls to this method for the cessation of thoughts of merit. Carpenter, endowed with what ten things do I declare the most skilled perfect recluse with the highest merit.? Here, carpenter, the bhikkhu is endowed with, right understanding of one gone beyond the training. He is endowed with right thoughts right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right endeavour, right mindfulness and right concentration of one gone beyond the training. He is endowed with right knowledge and right release of one gone beyond the training. Endowed with these ten things, I declare the most skilled perfect recluse with the highest merit. The Blessed One said thus and the carpenter Pancakanga delighted in the words of the Blessed One.. .... Notes 1 . The bhikkhu becomes virtuous, not only that, but knows as it really is, how there is to him the release of the mind and the release through wisdom, through the cessation of observances of merit.’bhikkhu siilavaa hoti naca siilamyo ta.mcacetovimutti.m pa~n~naavimutti.m yatthaabhuuta.m pajaanaati yatthaassa ce kusalaasiilaa aparisesaa nirujjhanti’ The sutta explains with precision how the mind has to be developed to attain the release of mind. It is to the four endeavours that the prominence is given. end quote. Nina. Op 6-aug-2006, om 16:10 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > And what are unskillful resolves? Being resolved on sensuality, on > ill will, > on harmfulness. These are called unskillful resolves. What is the > cause of > unskillful resolves? Their cause, too, has been stated, and they > are said to be > perception-caused. #62250 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 12:09 pm Subject: Rob K on listening. nilovg Dear friends, I shall quote some parts from Rob K's forum. Here is an old letter he wrote before: Rob K: < It is hard for most to see that while discussing Dhamma there are immediate conditions for insight: that even at this moment conditioned dhammas are arising. They think study and practice are somehow separate - this stems from strongly held self-view. WE think we have to do this or that before insight arises - not realising that there is nobody who can do anything, but that any moment can be understood if panna has been developed; while no moment can be understood(at the level of satipatthana) if there is an idea of 'me' seeing. Some want to have 'experience', they think Abhidhamma is intellectual, they want to know their own heart; but what is more real than nama and rupa that is arising now? What could be more useful than learning to see what is really there - fleeting, insignificant dhammas- nobody. _________ And you replied: Dear Robert, Can I deduce from what you have written , that when someone seperates the pariyatti from the actual practice thinking that the former is a tool for the latter at another time and place, being a situation created by the mind, we are infact chasing our own projections? Sukin____________ R: This is part of what I meant. While it is true that listening to Abhidhamma is a condition for future direct insight, it is also true that it is pointing to this moment. When we are listening to Dhamma or discussing or reading the texts what cittas are present? Isn't there seeing and visible object, sound and hearing, bhavanga cittas.... It all points to understand the anattaness of dhammas that are arising now. These dhammas are arising right while listening or considering - now is the time to understand. However, if we listen without knowing that the whole Abhidhamma has one flavour- that of anatta- one can still believe "I am listening" or "the real understanding will come later when I do this or that" (whatever one thinks the real practice is)....> Nina. #62251 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - > end quote. > Nina. > > ======================== Nina, you wrote above "Now this does not solve the translation problem. The Pali has sankappo, which is vitakka cetasika. It is a synonym of vitakka (Nyanatiloka dict)" On the contrary, Nina, by displaying the Pali and this alternative transaltion of the sutta, you have shown that the word should not have been 'resolve'. It should have been 'thought'. That makes all the difference in the world, for there is now no issue of resolve/intention ceasing!! It was indeed a translation problem. Now it seems that there is no contradiction between the two suttas! With metta, Howard #62252 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna matheesha333 Hi Nina, Howard, > ======================== > Nina, you wrote above "Now this does not solve the translation > problem. The Pali has sankappo, which is vitakka cetasika. It is a synonym of vitakka > (Nyanatiloka dict)" > On the contrary, Nina, by displaying the Pali and this alternative > transaltion of the sutta, you have shown that the word should not have been > 'resolve'. It should have been 'thought'. That makes all the difference in the > world, for there is now no issue of resolve/intention ceasing!! It was indeed a > translation problem. Now it seems that there is no contradiction between the two > suttas! > M: :) that's a relief! Thank you both for a fine bit of detective work! Putting heads together helps. Sariputta's 'thinking' in the Anupada sutta is still a bit of a mystery. I think it is also one of those 'stock phrases' which keep repeating. Meaning, I don't think it is such a long drawn out thought, not that it is impossible. I don't believe that thought silence is absolute above and in the second the jhana. Experientially speaking, it might not arise upto the degree of a fully formed, papanca or even a mental verbalization, there might be subtle snatches of pre-verbal thought (just meanings really) quickly swallowed up by the pervasive and dominating samadi. For example to get into arupa jhana one must think of vast space etc. I guess cetana and sanna can be (has to be) present. There was also another interesting sutta about Ven.Moggallana's jhaana training where he was experiencing factors from lower jhana's in higher jhanas (vitakka in the second jhana for example). The Buddha instructs him to steady and concentrate the mind further, to get the 'textbook' jhana! with metta Matheesha #62253 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 6:25 pm Subject: Re: reborn with pa~n~naa scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Apologies for the delay. I've been pondering and walking and playing one-on-one basketball and swimming and doing a lot of thinking about cleaning up the house. I asked: S: "...How is it that ruupa is known as ruupa? N: "Through the mind-door. Ruupa, a sense object, whatever it maybe, is experienced through the relevant sense-door and then through the mind-door, as is always the case. But insight knowledge that arises realizes that ruupa as ruupa in a mind-door process . There are so many sense-door processes and mind-door processes alternating, with bhavangacittas in between, and one does not count them, impossible." So, since pa~n~na is naama, it must arise in a mind-door process. I realise this is elementary. I recall how the sense-door process is, for lack of a better word, 'replicated' (functionally) in the mind-door process with the same object as for the sense-door. N: "The late Ven. Dhammadharo asked Kh. Sujin (I was present): how does ruupa appear through the mind-door, does it appear just as it appears through the sense-door? Kh Sujin answered: it appears as the same, exactly the same." That is why I tentatively used 'replicated' above. Is this 'replication?' Does the word 'appear' mean 'look like?' That is, I assume that the object 'seen' in the visual sense-door process 'appears' in the mind-door process exactly as it was 'seen' a moment before. But this is not seeing, is it? Wouldn't seeing be at the sense-door? I'd appreciate the clarification. N: "I want to add something about trying to focus on particular namas or rupas. When we learn about nama and rupa we all do this for a while, and then we see for ourselves that this does not help. It is thinking, perhaps with subtle lobha. But nobody else can tell." Understood. With loving kindness, Scott. #62254 From: connie Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 9:26 pm Subject: Re: the latest distortion nichiconn hey Sarah, S: So there he is - one minute an arahant and the next not even a 'virtuous puthujjana'. And the rest is history, as they say. Bahiya took off at unbelievable speed to seek out the Buddha. c: The Commentary (p127) says he was: <> and still arrived (p129) <<[87] With the appearance of one in a hurry (taramaanaruupo): with the indication of one in a hurry. >> Then there is talk <> ending << And he is (d) the Sugata since he speaks properly (sammaa gadati), since he proclaims speech that is itself fitting on an occasion that is fitting. And this also is said: "He is one speaking that which is timely, one speaking that which is fact, one speaking of the goal, one speaking Dhamma, one speaking Discipline, one proclaiming speech at the right time that is worthy of being treasured, reasoned, to the point, connected with the goal" (D iii 175; A ii 22); in addition to which "That speech which is not factual, fictitious, not connected with the goal, and that which for others is not dear, not charming - that speech the Tathaagata does not proclaim" (cp D iii 134; M i 395) and so on is also said. So he is also Sugata on account of his having spoken properly (sammaa gadattaa).>> ...not at all like someone who would have you "collapsed in exhaustion"; I apologize for my tiredness and hope to at least become more conversant with the texts so I can speak more properly. peace, connie #62255 From: connie Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 9:26 pm Subject: Re: black mail nichiconn c: I'll be kicking rocks along the *shore of personality*. s: why tarry on such a shore? c: actually, i was hoping to sneak up on the pali word for *that*, not remembering where i read it lately. too much sand in the eyes to see an exit? (tarry! hmph. doesn't reading count?) quite sure when you drown this side of the net, you wash back out onto another in the chain of Revival Hell I-Lands anyway. nichiren: << The third chapter of the Lotus Sutra states, "They dwell in hell so long that they come to think it as natural as playing in a garden, and the other evil paths seem like their own home." >> Udaana Cy: p224 n986: << From this it would seem clear that his realm, or haunt (bhavana) and his vimaana are one and the same - cp Vv-a 7, 312, and VS 485 n 5, where the possibility of such identity was raised. The various stories of the Vimaanavatthu demonstrate that a vimaana was thought usually to consist of a celestial dwelling, situated within substantial grounds containing parks and lotus ponds and so on, which sometimes also provided a means of transportation. >> c: but what would you have me do? the kon-tiki skims the surface nicely enough, yet i'm not one of << Those who fare mindful at all times (ye caranti sadaa sataa): those who fare, by way of the bodily postures, mindful, having become those possessing mindfulness, by way of the continual abidings with respect to the six objects of sights and so on at all times on account of the fact that they have reached fullness of mindfulness. And, in this connection, by way of this same inclusion of mindfulness, attentiveness is also to be understood as included.>> Exposition of the Fifth [Udaana Cy] Udaana Cy: p62 <> p75 <> I'm undermined where echoes lie. I forget: << The material world in which beings live is not to be mistaken as samsara. The continuous coming into existence of consciousness (citta), and mental factors (cetasikas) together with matter (rupa) in succession is called samsara in the ultimate sense. [sam = in succession; sara going, wandering.]>> Ashin Janakabhivamsa, ADL. peace, connie #62256 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nilovg Hi howard, I meant the other previous translations with resolve etc. these were problematic. I meant: the following was clearer: sankappo, vitakka. Nina. Op 6-aug-2006, om 21:57 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Now this does not solve the translation problem. #62257 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 12:09 am Subject: Energy = Viriya! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the Energy (Viriya) Link to Awakening! The Energy Link to Awakening (Viriya-sambojjhanga) is basically the same mental property (viriya-cetasika), as that which performs any effort & which also is inherently included in: The Energy Feet of Force (viriyiddhipada) The Ability of Energy (viriyindriya) The Power of Energy (viriyabala) The Right Effort Path Factor (samma-vayama-magganga) Trained, developed and aroused so that it are capable of Enlightening! The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (asava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Energy Link to Awakening based on seclusion, disillusion, ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then neither can any mental fermentation, nor any fever, or discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who examines, finds out why, & comes to certain comprehension, in him his Energy Link to Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] The Ability of Energy is to initiate, launch into effort and to complete any undertaking using persistent endurance. When this ability becomes unshakable and unfailing, it then becomes the mighty Power of Energy! The function of energy is this four-fold right effort of: 1: Eradicating evil disadvantageous states that have arisen in the mind. 2: Preventing the arising of yet unarisen disadvantageous mental states. 3: Initiating and developing yet unarisen advantageous mental states. 4: Increasing, refining & completing already arisen advantageous states. The characteristic of energy is readiness, willingness, enthusiastic ease, eager and keen vigour. The manifestation of energy is action, exertion, endeavour, industry, struggle, powerful striving and accomplishment! Lazy: The one, who does not rise when it is time to rise. Who though young & strong, is weak in mind, soft in will, & lazy by nature, such slow one does never find the way to Nibbana. Dhammapada 280 Get up! Sit up! Of what use are your dreams? How can you sleep, when sick, stabbed by the arrow of craving... Sutta Nipata 331 Get up! Sit up! Push on your training, until reaching sole peace! Do not let the king of death see you sloppy and thus delude & dominate you like a toy doll... Sutta Nipata 332 Feeding Energy: And what, friends, is feeding the Energy Link to Enlightenment, not yet arisen, & food too for boosting of any present Energy? 1: The element of mental initiative, 2: The element of launching into effort, 3: The element of enduring persistence. Systematic attention to these, is feeding any yet unarisen Energy Link to Awakening, & food too for boosting any present Energy. Samyutta Nikaya XLVI 51 Bojjhanga-samyutta Fivefold final Energy: Following the Buddha the energy in the disciple culminates, when he finally thinks: Let just this blood & flesh dry up & wither away so only skin, sinews & bones remain, I will not give up my quest and stray from this Noble 8-fold Path before having reached Enlightenment...!!! Further inspirations on the enthusiastic & effective quality of Energy: Feeding Energy: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Feeding_Energy.htm The 5th perfection: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Enthusiastic_is_Energy.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PS: Please include the word Samahita in any comment, since then will my automatic mail filters pick it up and I will see it & respond!! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. Friendship is the Greatest ... Let there be Calm & Free Bliss !!! <...> #62258 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: no Nina, No Lodewijk. nilovg Hi James, a reaction from Lodewijk. He just read your post and he is delighted with it. He finds the sutta very beautiful and asked me to print out your post. We shall take it along on our trip. Nina Op 6-aug-2006, om 8:56 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > First, Lodewijik should know that he isn't alone in his difficulty > to accept the teaching of anatta, in his heart; and the fact that he > states this difficulty straight out, without trying to 'act' like he > accepts anatta (like so many others) is a big step in the right > direction. I turn for support to the Channa Sutta #62259 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 3:43 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe 44, snippet for Phil. philofillet Hi Nina > Lodewijk just said that he did not quite get your message. I can hardly blame him for that. As James once said my posts are kind of stream of consciousness. So I will just repeat Acharn Sujin's memorable lines - "nobody can change the Buddha's teaching, the truth is the truth." Understanding that there is no Nina, in ultimate terms (ie in the light of the truth penetrated by the Buddha) is one aspect of the understanding that will condition metta and karuna and other factors that help us to take care of people and appreciate them better, without quite as much ignorance and attachment. > What is Rob K's post about his hiking in New Zealand? He writes about present realities understood while hiking. Very good. It's in the UPs, but I don't know where. It's also posted at Rob's forum, in a thread (in the Vipassana section) in which I posted some of Phra Dhammadaro. Well, I'm off on my summer vacation. Talk to you again in a couple of weeks. Phil #62260 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 3:53 am Subject: A relaxing summer interlude with James sarahprocter... Dear All, Just got home after dropping James off at the station for the airport. We spent over 5 hrs together, which started at the Taiwanese visa office where Jon met him, then a long leisurely, peaceful curry lunch at the place we've taken Charles D and Christine (seems to have become the spot for DSG visitors if anyone else passes through), a walk in the park and aviary, then back to the Taiwanese visa office where we watched the clock tick by with no sign of the visa and a flight looking less and less likely. Anyway, we found out James could get a later flight if he doesn't make it. This'll be a minor drama after the big dramas he's gone through in the last week since Cairo airport. His sutta collections had to be left with a friend there and little Simon, his cat, had to be left with the friend of an airport worker in Bangkok. Much more and James talked about it very calmly and with good humour. We immediately found him very gentle, softly spoken and pleasant company to be with. We had some good dhamma discussion at the lunch table in particular and it was all very enjoyable and mellow, if I can use that word. We very seldom have long leisurely dhamma-packed lunches - it was rather like being in an old movie when people used to eat slowly, be polite and have proper conversations in quiet, glamorous surroundings. The main topics of discussion, more or less in order from my scribbles were: -meditation, James' practice - the Dhamma as the most beautiful thing and all that matters as related to getting agitated when one feels others are voicing wrong views on the list - The Buddha's strong reactions, referring to bhikkhus as 'foolish' or being like prostitutes and so on (ref for the last James?). Corrupt, selfish ego-driven agitation vs the motives of this strong language. - Dhamma - attachment vs protection -kusala and akusala now vs in meditation - reciting the Metta sutta - kusala or akusala? The 'right' type of metta meditation. 'Feeling' when it's right. Metta to oneself? - Kusala is calm . All in general agreement! - Metta now? Gradations of kusala? All agreed that either kusala or akusala at any given moment, but an experience is a mixture... - Present mindfulness - Is meditation necessary, especially the strength of focus or concentration, to reinforce daily practice? - factors for mindfulness, 8FP - not just study! - Concentration, samatha - the AN sutta about the thief and mindfulness even in 'wrong' livelihood - What exactly is the present moment? Is it the lunch or the nano second we're talking about? What about a review of what's just gone? - Knowing the absolute present moment only during meditation - What are present dhammas? - Meditation - need to be concentrated leading to being focussed at other times -jhana - included in the Path -mindfulness now - moment on the path? Only with other factors - All mindfulness the same or same degree? - Focussing on breath - does it have to be kusala? - Delusion - most the time - All agreed! - Appreciating the delusion, understanding dhammas, developing confidence now - Shopping with Ajahn Chah - seeing what he can live without. (Vinaya breach?) - Renunciation, right thought, right understanding - can be now! - Understanding now - not book knowledge - Justified dosa - does it matter what the object is? Same for attachment? The raft.... S: I see there is some repetition and some going in circles in the above but I've been out since 5.30 a.m and feeling too tired to re-order. Really, it was a delight as I knew it would be. Perhaps the surprise was how easily we were able to discuss these controversial dhamma topics together so quietly and calmly together. I was really touched by James' keen interest and confidence in the value of the Dhamma, even at this time when he was very tired, just arrived in yet another strange city and with all sorts of visa and other hassles going on. There's still plenty of difference in approach and viewpoint, but I think we understand each other better. Let's see! Hope to meet you again before too, too long, now you're in a neighbouring country, James! Thanks truly for taking the trouble to spend time with us. Metta, Sarah p.s and Phil, James laughed a lot as well at your latest purchase which tests your reaction times here:-) ======= #62261 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 3:56 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 509- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (tranquillity/calm) People in the Buddha’s time and also people before his time developed calm, even to the degree of jhåna, if they had accumulated the skill and the inclination to do so. The development of calm is not specifically Buddhist. The fact that the Buddha and his disciples developed calm to the stage of jhåna does not mean that everybody has to develop jhåna in order to be able to also develop vipassanå. The Buddha explained that also jhånacitta could be object of insight, in order to help those who were able to attain jhåna not to cling to it, but to understand it as it is: impermanent and not self. We should remember this whenever we read in the scriptures about the attainment of jhåna. If someone has accumulated the capability to reach higher degrees of calm even to the stage of jhåna, they will arise because of conditions. Anything which arises can be object of awareness, and thus also jhåna. The attainment of jhåna is not an aim in itself, neither is it a necessary requirement for the attainment of enlightenment. ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #62262 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 4:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making The... jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: >J: "If one studies the teachings in the belief that that is going to >give rise to moments of direct knowledge, or that more studying means >more insight, or the like, then this is the kind of thing I have in >mind when I refer to 'doing a particular kind of activity'." > >That makes it clear. This is almost aphoristic, isn't it? As you >say, the wrong view associated with the act of study for a particular >reason, that is for the purpose of somehow wilfully causing insight to >arise, will simply condition the non-arising of insight, if one can >phrase it that way. > Yes. Or to put it another way, wrong view is not going to condition insight to arise (except perhaps if and when it is seen as wrong view). >"On the other hand, one could study the teachings out of an interest >in the teachings and with a recognition of the importance of coming to >a better understanding of them, but with no expectation of immediate >or direct result (based on one's understanding of the way things >work). Sure, the act of studying will involve some 'intentional >action'. Intention is present in every moment of consciousness." > >This too, I imagine, would have to have a natural quality, a sort of >insouciance associated with it, a more or less pure non-desire for >simple better understanding and that's it. One cannot fool the >dhammas into arising by pretending not to be studying to hasten the >arising of any particular dhamma. The trouble is, one can fool one's >self quite easily. > > Yes, I like the way you put it: One cannot fool the dhammas, but one can easily fool oneself. In actual fact there are bound to be 'mixed' motives even where there is acceptance at an intellectual level of what we are discussing here. As long as one accepts this, there is always the possibility that instances of wrong view which arise will be seen for what they are. Jon #62263 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 4:41 am Subject: Lunch with James jonoabb Hi All I too enjoyed the meeting with James. The discussion was earnest but pleasant. I remember at one stage James remarking that actually we were not so far apart, and I too felt the gap was much less than sometimes seems to be the case when discussing on the list. James, hope you had an uneventful trip back, after all the trials and tribulations of your trip from Egypt and subsequently, and are able to settle in to your new job. Jon PS I have uploaded a pic of James into the 'Members' album, and of the 3 of us into the 'Meetings' album. #62264 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/7/06 3:55:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi howard, > I meant the other previous translations with resolve etc. these were > problematic. I meant: the following was clearer: sankappo, vitakka. > Nina. > ====================== Yes, sorry for not following youat irst. And thank you so much for zeroing in on the translation error. You have made an apparent problem disappear! :-) With metta, Howard #62265 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 1:47 am Subject: Fortune-Cookie Dhamma/ Very Brief Post upasaka_howard Hi all - Last night my wife and I went out to a Chinese restaurant for dinner with our younger son & his fiancee, and our older son, daughter-in-law, and two granddaughters visiting us from the Dallas, Texas area. I came away with the following fortune-cookie message that expresses well my attitude towards Buddhist practice: "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten"!! ;-)) With metta, Howard #62266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 5:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A relaxing summer interlude with James nilovg Dear Sarah, Jon, James, what a delightful report about your lunch together. I wonder whether Jon taped it? There are so many subjects, I can't make it all out. But James will write as well. Sorry for the cat Simon. No sutta collection any more, and you, James, still gave that beautiful sutta to Lodeiwjk. I do hope many others follow. Nina Op 7-aug-2006, om 12:53 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > We spent over 5 hrs together, which started at the Taiwanese visa > office > where Jon met him, then a long leisurely, peaceful curry lunch #62267 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 5:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe 44, snippet for Phil. nilovg Hi Phil, no problem, this is very good. May you and Naomi have a very good summer vacation, with Dhamma, Nina Op 7-aug-2006, om 12:43 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Understanding that there is no Nina, in ultimate terms (ie in the > light of the truth penetrated by the Buddha) is one aspect of the > understanding that will condition metta and karuna and other factors > that help us to take care of people and appreciate them better, > without quite as much ignorance and attachment. #62268 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 6:43 am Subject: Rob K on listening, 2. nilovg Dear friends, I quote again from Rob K's forum, from an old letter he wrote before: Rob K: end quote. ****** Nina. #62269 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 6:51 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 46 nilovg Dear friends, What is real when we look at a tree? What can be directly experienced? Visible object is a paramattha dhamma, a reality; it is a kind of rúpa which can be directly experienced through the eyes. Through touch hardness can be experienced; this is a kind of rúpa which can be directly experienced through the bodysense, it is real. ``Tree'' is a concept or idea of which we can think, but it is not a paramattha dhamma, not a reality which has its own unchangeable characteristic. Visible object and hardness are paramattha dhammas, they have their own characteristics which can be directly experienced, no matter how one names them. The world experienced through the six doors is real, but it does not last; it is impermanent. When we see, there is the world of the visible, but it falls away immediately. When we hear, there is the world of sound, but it does not last either. It is the same with the world of smell, the world of flavour, the world of tangible object and the world of objects experienced through the mind-door. However, we usually know only the world of concepts, because ignorance and wrong view have been accumulated for so long. Ignorance of paramattha dhammas is the kind of ignorance which should be eradicated; it brings sorrow. Ignorance conditions the wrong view of self and all other defilements. So long as there is ignorance we are deluding ourselves, we do not know what our life really is: conditioned phenomena which arise and fall away. The world in the sense of paramattha dhammas is in the teachings called ``the world in the ariyan sense''. The ariyan has developed the wisdom which sees things as they are; he truly knows ``the world''. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Sa.låyatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, chapter IV, §84, Transitory) that Ånanda said to the Buddha: `` `The world! The world!' is the saying lord. Pray, how far, lord, does this saying go?'' ``What is transitory by nature, Ånanda, is called `the world' in the ariyan sense. And what, Ånanda, is transitory by nature? The eye, Ånanda, is transitory by nature... objects... tongue... mind is transitory by nature, mind-states, mind-consciousness, mind-contact, whatsoever pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or indifferent feeling which arises owing to mind-contact, that also is transitory by nature. What is thus transitory, Ånanda, is called `the world' in the ariyan sense.'' ***** Nina. #62270 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 6:56 am Subject: Letters from Nina 27 nilovg Dear friends, We can have clear knowledge only of what occurs at the present moment, not of what is past already. Is there hardness now? That is only a physical element. Is there no heat or cold now? These are only physical elements. Is there pleasant feeling now? That is only a mental element. Is there dislike of something now? That is only a mental element. We are not used to considering the world in us and around us as elements. Someone may be inclined to say "How can this kind of understanding help me now? It will not return to me my husband or wife, my child or my friend who have died. It will not alleviate my bodily pain, it cannot make me healthy again." When we learn to see realities as elements which do not belong to us and which are beyond control, there will be less ignorance in our life. We will suffer less from the adversities of life. We still have sorrow, but we should know sorrow as it is. Sorrow or grief is a kind of aversion, it is dislike of something we experience. It is natural that we feel grief. It is bound to arise when there are conditions for it. We had aversion in the past and this conditions the arising of aversion today. Ignorance of realities conditions everything which is unwholesome and thus also aversion. Aversion is also conditioned by attachment. We are attached to the pleasant feeling we have when we are in the company of someone who is dear to us. When that person isn't there any more we have grief. Thus, it is actually a selfish clinging to our own pleasant feeling which conditions grief. This may sound crude, but if we are sincere to ourselves we can see that it is true. ******* Nina. #62271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 7:00 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 93 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 93. Path-Condition (Magga-Paccaya) Intro: In the case of path-condition, magga-paccaya, the cetasikas which are called path-factors are the conditioning dhammas (paccayas) and these are related to the dhammas arising together with them, the conditioned dhammas (paccayupanna dhammas), by way of path-condition, magga-paccaya. The path-factors which are path-condition are not merely the factors of the noble eightfold Path which leads to enlightenment, but the term path-factor should be taken in a wider sense. Path-factors can be akusala cetasikas which constitute the wrong path, or they can be sobhana cetasikas which constitute the right path.The factors of the wrong Path are: wrong view, wrong thinking, wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. Wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood are not cetasikas, but they are unwholesome actions motivated by akusala cetanaa, unwholesome volition, which accompanies akusala citta. Neither is wrong mindfulness a cetasika, but it designates lack of attention to kusala, lack of mindfulness which is a property of akusala citta. The cetasika mindfulness, sati, can only accompany sobhana citta, it cannot be akusala. Since the four factors of wrong speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood and wrong mindfulness are not cetasikas they are not conditioning factors of path-condition. The other four factors of the wrong path are akusala cetasikas, namely: wrong view, wrong thinking, wrong effort and wrong concentration. Thus,they are conditioning factors of path-condition. The factors of the wrong path perform each their own function while they condition citta, cetasikas and mind-produced rúpa by way of path- condition. While the factors of the wrong path condition the accompanying dhammas there can be wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. The factors of the right path are the following sobhana cetasikas: right view (sammå-di.t.thi) right thinking (sammaa-sa.nkappa) right speech (sammå-våcå) right action (sammå-kammanta) right livelihood (sammå-åjíva) right effort (sammå-våyåma) right mindfulness (sammå-sati) right concentration (sammå-samådhi ) The factors of the right path are sobhana cetasikas which condition sobhana cittas. They condition mahå-kusala cittas, mahå-vipåkacittas and mahå-kiriyacittas and also mind-produced matter by way of path- condition. They condition rúpåvacara cittas and arúpåvacara cittas by way of path-condition. They also condition lokuttara cittas by way of path-condition. Not all path-factors arise with each kind of sobhana citta. The quality and the degree of the path-factors is variegated since they accompany different kinds of sobhana cittas. As we have seen, citta and the accompanying cetasikas condition one another by conascence- condition, by mutuality-condition, by dependence-condition and by other conditions. Evenso the sobhana citta and the cetasikas which are the path-factors condition one another in these different ways. Sobhana cittas may arise without the path-factor sammå-di.t.thi, paññå or right understanding, or they may be accompanied by sammå- di.t.thi. ---------------- Text Vis. 93. (18) The twelve path factors classed as profitable, etc., which assist in the sense of an outlet from whatever it may be, are 'path conditions', -------- N: The words, profitable, etc. (kusalaadi, aadi meaning: to begin with), refer to the factors which are kusala, akusala and indeterminate (avyaakata) which include those which are vipaaka and kiriya. The Tiika explains the expression, from whatever it may be (yato tato), as the wrong Path (micchaa) or the right Path (sammaa). The path-factors of the wrong path lead downwards, to an unhappy rebirth, and the path-factors of the right path lead to a happy rebirth, or, when they are constituents of the noble eightfold Path, they lead to deliverance from the cycle of birth and death. ---------- Text Vis.: according as it is said: 'The path factors are a condition, as path condition, for states associated therewith and for the kinds of materiality originated thereby' (P.tn.1,6). ------- N: The cetasikas that are Path-factors condition the conascent dhammas and also mind-produced ruupa. --------- Text Vis.: But in the Question Section it is said: 'At the moment of rebirth-linking, resultant indeterminate path factors are a condition, as path condition, for aggregates associated therewith and for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed' (P.tn.1,176). ------------ N: At the moment of rebirth the path-factors accompanying the rebirth- consciousness which is accompanied by sobhana hetus condition the other naama- dhammas and also the ruupa produced by kamma by way of path-condition. -------------- Text Vis.: But these two, namely, jhana and path conditions, should be understood as inapplicable to the two sets of five consciousnesses and to the consciousnesses without root-cause ((34)-(41), (50)-(56), (70)-(72). ----------- N: The Tiika deals with the question whether applied thinking, vitakka accompanying mind element (mano-dhaatu: the five sense-door adverting-consciousness and the two types of receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchana-citta) can be a jhaanaa-factor. We read in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 269) that in the five sense-cognitions the jhaanafactors are not obtained and in the ahetuka (rootless) cittas the path-factors are not obtained. The Co. to this passage explains: This commentary also explains that in rootless cittas the path- factors are not obtained, The Expositor (II, p. 351) comments on the Dhammasangani (§454, mind- element): It states the same about investigation-consciousness, santiira.na-citta. The Tiika to the Vis. states that the words , ‘ jhana and path conditions, should be understood as inapplicable to the two sets of five consciousnesses and to the consciousnesses without root-cause’ are based on the Pa.t.thaana, not on the Dhammasangani. *********** Conclusion. The path-factors are strong supports for the sobhana cittas and akusala cittas they condition by way of path-condition. As we have seen, the wrong path leads downwards, to an unhappy rebirth and the right path leads upwards to a happy rebirth or to the end of the cycle. What is called path are actually cetasikas: akusala cetasikas or sobhana cetasikas. They arise just for a moment because of the appropriate conditions and then they fall away. This teaches us that being on a path is momentary; being on a path means: the arising of akusala citta or sobhana citta conditioned by path-factors. When someone is angry he is on the wrong path leading downwards. When someone utters angry speech there is ruupa conditioned by factors of the wrong path. When someone gives generously, the kusala citta is conditioned by factors of the right path. At such a moment there are also mind-produced ruupas conditioned by factors of the right path. When right understanding of naama and ruupa is developed during one’s activities in daily life, the right path is beginning to be developed. However, there may be clinging to having a great deal of awareness, one may have desire for result and this can induce a person to deviate from the right path, be it even for a moment. Moments of being on the right path and the wrong path may alternate. It is right understanding that can detect all such different moments. In that way, right understanding can eventually lead to the end of the cycle. *********** Nina. #62272 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 8:17 am Subject: Re: black mail scottduncan2 Dear connie, And a living spell check as well: bee stil my beeting hart. c: "too much sand in the eyes to see an exit? (tarry! hmph. doesn't reading count?)" Alas no, and yet: tary, tarey, tarrey? No, in the end its tarry, not in the first but in the second sense. Yet still, I am maana-jaatika, maana-thaddha with a plenitude of maana-anusaya and always worsted. Ever worsted and thus... c: "quite sure when you drown this side of the net, you wash back out onto another in the chain of Revival Hell I-Lands anyway." Plumbing, just plumbing. Va.msadhamana-va.t.ta c: "Udaana Cy: p224 n986: << From this it would seem clear that his realm, or haunt (bhavana) and his vimaana are one and the same - cp Vv-a 7, 312, and VS 485 n 5, where the possibility of such identity was raised. The various stories of the Vimaanavatthu demonstrate that a vimaana was thought usually to consist of a celestial dwelling, situated within substantial grounds containing parks and lotus ponds and so on, which sometimes also provided a means of transportation." They are aakaasa.t.thaanaani. Sakehi kammehi apaapakehi pu~n~nehi laddha. c: "yet i'm not one of...ye caranti sadaa sataa...In the vipassanaa- and path-knowledges." Nor I. c: "I'm undermined where echoes lie. I forget: << The material world in which beings live is not to be mistaken as samsara. The continuous coming into existence of consciousness (citta), and mental factors (cetasikas) together with matter (rupa) in succession is called samsara in the ultimate sense. [sam = in succession; sara going, wandering.]>> Ashin Janakabhivamsa, ADL." Wonderful! Sadhu! I keep forgetting, having never learned. The material world is art and appreciation or worse. With loving kindness, Scott. #62273 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 8:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making The... scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thank you. J: "Yes. Or to put it another way, wrong view is not going to condition insight to arise (except perhaps if and when it is seen as wrong view)." Better put. Miccha-di.t.thi conditions more miccha-di.t.thi, I would imagine. J: "In actual fact there are bound to be 'mixed' motives even where there is acceptance at an intellectual level of what we are discussing here. As long as one accepts this, there is always the possibility that instances of wrong view which arise will be seen for what they are." Again, this is the heart of the matter. Seeing things for what they are only happens when it does. I believe the steam has gone out of this particular thread between us, Jon, so, unless you have more to help me understand, shall we await further interactions? With loving kindness, Scott. #62274 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 9:03 am Subject: Re: black mail scottduncan2 c, "Plumbing, just plumbing. Va.msadhamana-va.t.ta" Addendum: vaccakuupa-va.t.ta S. #62275 From: Illusion Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 11:37 am Subject: "Shades" Dhamma talk by Bhante Pannadipa vvhite_illusion Dear Dhamma Friends, The Dhamma talk by Bhante Pannadipa, "Shades" can be listened to from this link below: www.silashin.org/audio/PannyaDipa.WMA Summary: Bhante Pannadipa talked about the different kinds of "shades" in our lives. The first is the tree; with dense leaves trees can provide shade for us in times of extreme heat (such as the one we've experienced several weeks ago). Second is our relatives; our relatives can provide psychological support (that soothes us) during times of hardship. Third is our parents; our parents are like our "Gods". They provide psychological, material, and physical support. Fourth is the government; government always "tries" to protect us and fulfills our needs in order to survive in this society. The fifth is Buddhasasana; Buddha's teachings provide the real and ultimate support. Dhamma teaches us to become independent when all the four kinds of shades (as aforementioned) fail to support us. Thus, when we chant (in the temple or at home) we are really taking refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. We chant not for speech therapy nor for the sake of exercising our mouths (so that it would not become stiff), but Bhante Pannadipa explains the true reason why it is we chant, why it is we take refuge in the Triple Gem. Metta, -- []\/[][]D (Maya Putra) #62276 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 11:40 am Subject: reborn with pa~n`naa nilovg Dear Scott, Op 7-aug-2006, om 3:25 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: Apologies for the delay. I've been pondering and walking and playing one-on-one basketball and swimming and doing a lot of thinking about cleaning up the house. -------- N: please no apologies, you need not answer all my mails. ------------ S: So, since pa~n~na is naama, it must arise in a mind-door process. I realise this is elementary. I recall how the sense-door process is, for lack of a better word, 'replicated' (functionally) in the mind-door process with the same object as for the sense-door. ------ N: I remember Kh Sujin using the word photocopy. That sense object has only just fallen away and cittas succeed one another so fast. Its characteristic can still be known through the mind-door. We can still consider it as present object. --------- S: Does the word 'appear' mean 'look like?' That is, I assume that the object 'seen' in the visual sense-door process 'appears' in the mind-door process exactly as it was 'seen' a moment before. But this is not seeing, is it? Wouldn't seeing be at the sense-door? I'd appreciate the clarification. --------- N: It is not seen anymore, seeing arises only in a sense-door process. Seeing does not need the help of vitakka and vicara in order to see. The following receiving- consciousness and investigating-consciousness need vitakka and vicara in order to experience visible object, they do not see. But they experience visible object. Evenso, cittas arising in a following mind-door process do not see, but they experience the visible object, and in this case they arise in an immediately following process experiencing visible object that has just fallen away. ---------- N: "I want to add something about trying to focus on particular namas.... You had a very good remark to Jon: Nina. or rupas. #62277 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 11:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna nilovg Hi Matheesha, I think that there are no thoughts connected with sense objects in jhaana, because the person who cultivates it sees the danger of sense impressions. But the first jhana is still accompanied by the jhanafactor vitakka which thinks of the meditation subject. We read about the four right efforts and this is the right effort of the eightfold Path. He is also cultivating vipassanaa. Perfect view of an adept pertains to the arahat. For arupajhaana, the preparation is thinking of vast space. He has to repeat: infinite space. Cetanaa and sa~n~naa arise with each citta but they become very subtle in the higher arupajhanas: neither perception nor non- perception, etc. . Nina. Op 6-aug-2006, om 23:21 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > Sariputta's 'thinking' in the Anupada sutta is still a bit of a > mystery. I think it is also one of those 'stock phrases' which keep > repeating. Meaning, I don't think it is such a long drawn out > thought, not that it is impossible. I don't believe that thought > silence is absolute above and in the second the jhana. > Experientially speaking, it might not arise upto the degree of a > fully formed, papanca or even a mental verbalization, there might be > subtle snatches of pre-verbal thought (just meanings really) quickly > swallowed up by the pervasive and dominating samadi. For example to > get into arupa jhana one must think of vast space etc. I guess > cetana and sanna can be (has to be) present. > > There was also another interesting sutta about Ven.Moggallana's > jhaana training where he was experiencing factors from lower jhana's > in higher jhanas (vitakka in the second jhana for example). The > Buddha instructs him to steady and concentrate the mind further, to > get the 'textbook' jhana! #62278 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 1:12 pm Subject: Re: reborn with pa~n`naa scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks as always... N: "I remember Kh Sujin using the word photocopy.That sense object has only just fallen away and cittas succeed one another so fast. Its characteristic can still be known through the mind-door. We can still consider it as present object." But it is through the mind-door that "seeing" can be "knowing," is this right? That is, pa~n~na does not arise at the sense door, just citta with the universals. It is only through the mind-door that the mental factors operate. Is this correct? In other words, the sense-object proper has fallen away and it's "copy" is the object through the mind door. N: "It is not seen anymore, seeing arises only in a sense-door process. Seeing does not need the help of vitakka and vicara in order to see. The following receiving-consciousness and investigating-consciousness need vitakka and vicara in order to experience visible object, they do not see. But they experience visible object. Evenso, cittas arising in a following mind-door process do not see, but they experience the visible object, and in this case they arise in an immediately following process experiencing visible object that has just fallen away." I read in The Debate of King Milinda, chapter 3, numbers 7 and 8: "Does mind-consciousness arise whenever eye-consciousness arises?" "Yes, O King, where the one is there the other is." "Which arises first?" "First eye-consciousness then mind-consciousness." "Does eye-consciousness issue a command to mind-consciousness or vice versa?" "No there is no communication between them..." "Where there is mind consciousness, Naagasena, is there always contact and feeling?" "Yes, where there is mind-consciousness there is always contact and feeling. Also perception, intention, initial application, and sustained application." These latter are two of the particulars, while contact and feeling are two of the universals. A bit confusing. I think, though, that at the sense-door it is citta with the universals alone while through the mind door is the fullness of naama. With loving kindness, Scott. #62279 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 2:42 pm Subject: Bruce Lee's Jeet Kun Do As Application Of Sati ( Re: Buddhist physical exercises ) kelvin_lwin Hello Daniel, > just for one's own physical well being, and for one's own health. I wonder why > I have not heard of a Theravada based system like that. I believe it's called walking meditation and going on alms rounds :o - Kel #62280 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 12:44 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Buddhist physical exercises dacostacharles Hi Daniel, First, yoga is very broad, there are some forms based on Buddhism. The earliest form of Taichi was heavily influenced by Chan Buddhism. I train a style of Kung Fu that was based on Tantric Buddhism, and I use to train kung fu and yoga systems that were developed at the Shaolin Temple. Charles DaCosta -----Original Message----- I am wondering if anyone is familiar with a system of physical exercises that is based on Buddhism? Yoga has roots in Hinduism, and Tai-Chi I think is based upon chinese thought, perhaps on Taoism or something like that. Are there any buddhist-based systems, perhaps physical practices in Theravada? <...> #62281 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 4:41 pm Subject: Re: How Faith, Truth and Wisdom are Related kelvin_lwin Hi Daniel, > Well, these are my thoughts. I would be glad to hear responses since I > feel that there are additional differences between thinking a sentence after > you came to a conclusion yourself, and because another person said so, which I > have not identified yet. This is normally defined as suta-maya-panna and cinta-maya-panna. Suta-maya is a knowledge given by outside source. Cinta-maya is knowledge from your own thinking and reflecting on it. The only way to really know is to develop bhavana-maya-panna which is the experiential knowledge. So it is said that beginning is suta-maya then you understand it better with cinta-maya and finally live it with bhavana-maya. - Kel #62282 From: connie Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 4:52 pm Subject: Re: black mail nichiconn S: Addendum: vaccakuupa-va.t.ta C: indeed, sky-pilot! straining to hear the summoner over the pipes and suffering the loss of the hearing of the ancients, my measures fall far short of a full (sound) fathom. "S": "Oh! the skilful deceit of ignorance!" The afflicted (material) world is (reflected on as) art and appreciation or worse. <<[104] The seven (red) metals and the kahaapa.na are what are known as "valuables" (saaraa). Bed, clothing, cloak, red teeth, complexion and charm and so on are what are known as "vanities".>> p267 Udaana Cy. p135 <> peace, c. ps: as for your suggesting to sarah('s walrus) that I be final arbitraitor, I leave my head in the hands of: The King [Mucalinda 2. (p266)]: <> #62283 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 6:41 pm Subject: Re: reborn with pa~n`naa kelvin_lwin Hi Scott (Nina), > But it is through the mind-door that "seeing" can be "knowing," is > this right? That is, pa~n~na does not arise at the sense door, just > citta with the universals. It is only through the mind-door that the > mental factors operate. Is this correct? In other words, the > sense-object proper has fallen away and it's "copy" is the object > through the mind door. K: The mind-adverting consciousness precedes the javanas in the original sense-door process itself. Since it's in one process, it's still the same object. It's not considered a mind-door process because the object came through a sense-door first. Also the javanas that arises in this original process can contain panna. The copy/replicated object is only necessary for subsequent secondary mind- door processes (not consciousness) that fully complete the picture and identification of the original object. Just remember which level you're dealing with, consciousness or process. - Kel #62284 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 8:14 pm Subject: Re: black mail scottduncan2 Dear connie - "Ekadhubbhaka." C: "...straining to hear the summoner over the pipes and suffering the loss of the hearing of the ancients, my measures fall far short of a full (sound) fathom." "Ye te suttantaa tathaagatabhaasitaa gambhiiraa gambiiratthaa lokuttaraa su~n~natapa.tisa.myuttaa." c: "The seven (red) metals and the kahaapa.na are what are known as "valuables" (saaraa). Bed, clothing, cloak, red teeth, complexion and charm and so on are what are known as "vanities".>> p267 Udaana Cy." Oh. Yeah... Oops. c: "p135"<>" Okay, here's where I show how thick I really am. The mind-door adverting consciousness cognises the object as itv is, to its own extent and no more. Is that it? And what are the objects potentially to be cognised? Those only from the five sense-doors? Or even mind-objects? Are there mind-objects arising without having entered through the sense-doors? I'd say yes. Back to the books... c: "final arbitraitor" See above epithet. c: "I leave my head in the hands of..." With a committee like this, you'll be good for an aeon. With loving kindness, Scott. #62285 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 8:29 pm Subject: Re: reborn with pa~n`naa scottduncan2 Dear Kel, K: "The mind-adverting consciousness precedes the javanas in the original sense-door process itself." Is this called the "votthapana-citta" at this point? K: "Since it's in one process, it's still the same object. It's not considered a mind-door process because the object came through a sense-door first." There can be mind-objects which did not come through a sense-door. K: "Also the javanas that arise in this original process can contain panna. The copy/replicated object is only necessary for subsequent secondary mind-door processes (not consciousness) that fully complete the picture and identification of the original object. Just remember which level you're dealing with, consciousness or process." So pa~n~na can arise with javana-cittas which appear in a sense-door process if conditions conduce? I'm not sure what you mean when you use "consciousness." You seem to be referring to awareness or experience. I'm using the term to mean citta - any consciousness - and trying to determine where in the process things can occur, but your point is well taken. Might you say more? Thank you, Kel, and sorry if I seem obtuse - its merely obduracy (of skull, that is). With loving kindness, Scott. #62286 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 9:27 pm Subject: Re: reborn with pa~n`naa kelvin_lwin > Is this called the "votthapana-citta" at this point? K: Yep, you got it. > There can be mind-objects which did not come through a sense-door. K: Yea, mind-door directly (can be a sense object) > So pa~n~na can arise with javana-cittas which appear in a sense- door > process if conditions conduce? K: yeap, there's no restrictions there as far as I know. Just different types of vithis based on how strong the object is. > use "consciousness." You seem to be referring to awareness or > experience. I'm using the term to mean citta - any consciousness - > and trying to determine where in the process things can occur, but > your point is well taken. K: I'm using citta/consciousness also and vithi/process. Your posts just sounded like you were mixing up things from two levels. If you're looking at just one process and the cittas that arise then it's the same object that lasts 17 mind moments. > Thank you, Kel, and sorry if I seem obtuse K: No need, it's confusing stuff. If I didn't have my Abhidhamma teacher in person I wouldn't be able to make head or tail outta things. I don't know how people can do it on their own. - Kel #62287 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sati, Samadhi, Samatha, Vipassana and Panna - but mainly samadhi jonoabb Hi Mateesha Continuing with the final part of your post. matheesha wrote: >>J: But is the idea of 'interchangeable' samadhi mentioned >>or alluded to in the suttas? >> >>I would say rather the opposite: samadhi of samatha requires >>samatha, while samadhi of vipassana requires vipassana. I re-post >>the summary of AN IV, 41: >> >><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< >>[snip of sutta text dealing with 4 kinds of samadhi-bhavana] >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>I don't see any need to assume either a separate development of >>samadhi, or the idea of transference to samadhi from samatha to >>vipassana. >> >> > >M: What is different in these 4 'types' of samadhi? >-one is obviously the outcome >-the other is the actual practice (vipassan/samatha) method used > >Why are these developments of samadhi and not simply developments in >vipassana, samatha etc? > A good question. You have suggested a possible answer (below). I can think of at least one alternative possibility. As we know, the Buddha taught his message in a variety of ways, so that it would appeal to listeners of different capabilities and tendencies. Samadhi was obviously a big thing at the time, and there were many, many people who were highly skilled in it. Perhaps for some of those people, the message of insight would be more acceptable when presented as an aspect of samadhi. Somewhat like the way the Buddha adopted the vocabulary and language of other traditions or groups but gave new meaning to that vocab and language ( e.g., what a 'brahmin' truly is, 'fire' in the context of life in samsara, a different way of 'paying respect to the 6 directions', etc). >The reason is that they have a common >element -that is samadhi - as a root and a base. Citassaekaggata is >just that and nothing else. It is common to all these. How it is >weilded will decide what it will give rise to. A bit like how dough >can give rise to many different types of food depending on how it is >weilded. > The function of samadhi is just to concentrate. If there is any wielding to be done, it would have to be panna that does it, I believe, so again it comes down to the development of samatha or vipassana. (But I don't think it is being suggested that samadhi is something to be wielded.) >How will you give rise to the samadhi of vipassana? > >In one of right mindfulness, right concentration comes into being... >In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right >knowledge, right release comes into being. >-mahacattasarika sutta > >Right concentration is predominantly defined as jhana 1-4. Now The >sutta above says these are sequential, as can be seen. Otherwise >there is no reason to say in one of right ..., right ... comes into >being and keep repeating it. The reasonable (unless trying to adapt >a square peg into a round hole) way to understand is that. > There are 2 issues here: right concentration as the 4 jhanas, and the passage from the Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta. As regards the Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta (MN 117, MLDB p.934), the passage does not actually say that the factors are sequential. What it says is just what you've quoted here, namely that "In one of factor A, factor B comes into being". The commentarial interpretation is that the factors referred to are coarisnig factors. This is in line with the commentarial view of the NEP factors as being a set of co-arising factors. Looking at your quoted passage in a little more detail, I get a slightly different picture than you do. The relevant section of the sutta begins: "Therein, bhikkhus, right view comes first. In one of right view, right intention comes into being." This 'right view' is samma-ditthi, the panna of the NEP. The 'right knowledge' and 'right release' that are mentioned after 'right concentration' refer, according to the commentary (as quoted in the BB translation), to two cittas of the arahant that arise after arahantship has been attained. Summarising the 10 factors given in the passage they are in order: 1. Right View (panna of the NEP) 2.-8. The other factors of the NEP, ending with Right Concentration 9.-10. Two factors that are exclusive to the person who has attained arahantship. So in the context of the development of insight *prior to* the attainment of enlightenment, it comes down to just the 8 NEP factors, starting with panna (ditthi) and ending with ekaggata (samadhi). >How can sati give rise to samma samadhi, often defined as jhana? How >can samadhi give rise to panna? > Well if you see the path factors as being sequential you will also need to ask how samma-aajiiva (right livelihood) can give rise to samma-vaayaama (right effort), or why right effort and right concentration are apparently not necessary to give rise to panna (right view). Is the sequential interpretation a safe inference to draw? As mentioned before, the factors of ' right knowledge' and 'right release' immediately following right concentration pertain to the cittas of persons who have already attained arahantship. >But the Buddha says that jhana is essential only at the anagami >stage. How are we to understand this then? What can be said about a >sotapanna's panna level? The reasonable way to understand it is that >there is development of both samatha and vipassana samadhi with >satipatthana practice (it gives rise to both as mentioned in >suttas), and that a level required for a sotapanna something like >access concentration is adquate. > >It has to serve a purpose in development of direct experiencing, >which is deeper levels of panna, more than theoretical >understanding. > Yes, the necessary samadhi is developed as satipatthana is developed. That is about as much as we need to know, I think! >If you focus on the present moment, even for a moment (!), there is >focusing. There is some samadhi there. > Ah yes, but you are assuming, I think, that 'focusing on the present moment' means the citta will be kusala (presumably either samatha or vipassana). I don't think that is a safe assumption. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this point, as it's a very crucial one. Jon PS I have not commented in this post on samma-samadhi as the 4 jhanas. I might come back to that later. In brief, my understanding is that samadhi of actual path moments (magga citta) is reckoned as jhana of one or other of the 4 levels, regardless of whether mundane jhana has previously been attained or not. #62288 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 2:00 am Subject: Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah buddhatrue Hi All, Well, I am finally settled into an apartment in Taichung, Taiwan. I am very, very tired as I have been on the constant go for eight days now, but I thought I would write a post about my lunch meeting with Sarah and Jon while it is still fresh in my mind. First, I met Jon in his work building where I was getting my visa. The first thing I noticed about Jon is that he has the most piercing blue eyes. He came to my rescue because my hiring agency gave me the wrong information about how much my visa would cost (US citizens have to pay three times what others pay) and the $100 dollar US note I had the bank wouldn't accept because it was an older note, so Jon was kind enough to exchange the note for me from his own pocket!! I hope that he is able to get the money back before his bank figures out I made the note with Photoshop! ;-)) (just kidding). I went to the Conrad Hotel restaurant to meet Sarah. She was extremely kind, as expected, and all smiles to meet me. I told her about my trials and tribulations on my way to Taiwan (leaving behind my Tipitaka and my cat) and she was sympathetic. We talked about teaching and she gave me some tips and some games I could use with my new Asian students. I thanked her for letting me continue on this list even though I can be quite a handful. She related some stories to me about how my name sometimes comes up during dhamma discussions in other countries and how I am not very well received. Actually, she and Jon have both had to take flak from members who outright demand that I be removed from the group or at the very least be censured/moderated. However, they have not done that and have defended my being a member of this group. I think that this action speaks volumes about their Buddhist practice and outlook. The Buddha accepted murderers and thieves into the sangha, surely Jon and Sarah can accept an aggressive poster in this group. When Jon arrived we got right down to the business of dhamma discussion! ;-)) He started out by asking me some questions about the present moment and if there is metta or not in the present moment. I tried to keep up with him and his questions but I'm really not sure how well I did. My brain was rather scrambled from one day after the other of countless activities and stress. You can see from Sarah's post that we covered a huge variety of topics during our discussion, but most of the discussion centered on knowing dhammas during the present moment and the role of meditation in Buddhist practice. This was good, as there was a lot to discuss, but I wanted to discuss some about the role of anatta in Buddhist practice- but we didn't get to that. Maybe I will have to take another trip to Hong Kong. ;-)) Okay, to summarize the significant points: Jon stressed that mindfulness of the present moment is the entirety of the Buddha's path; I disagreed and said that it was only one part of the path, that there were also seven other factors of the Noble Eightfold path to follow. I gave the example that a thief can be very mindful and concentrated while he is robbing a bank, but he isn't following the Buddha's path. Jon agreed but he continued to stress knowing the present moment, along with Sarah, while I continued to stress following the Noble Eightfold Path. I mentioned jhana and asked "What about jhana?" but I got no response from Jon or Sarah. I asked a few times and still got no response. So, anyway, I dropped that subject. By having this conversation with Jon and Sarah, face-to-face, I started to understand more of where they are coming from and I think that we agree on most points rather than disagree. Jon and Sarah are concerned by the so called "meditation movement" which has all kinds of supposed experts teaching meditation. Then those who follow these "experts" receive the wrong teachings about meditation and even believe that meditation is the entirety of the Buddha's path. I agree wholeheartedly with their concerns in this regard. As a personal example, which I related to them, I followed the teachings of S.N. Goenka for several years until I realized that they lead down a blind alley. Granted, they offer some little benefit, and are probably better than spending your time shopping, whoring, and using drugs, but they are not what the Buddha taught. So, Sarah and Jon wanted to emphasize that knowing the dhammas of the present moment is more in keeping with following the Buddha's teaching than following these meditation teachers who put up a shingle everyday. And, I agree with them. However, I stressed to them both that true meditation and mindfulness practice are not mutually exclusive and that one supports the other. S.N. Goenka and others like him may have given meditation a dirty name to those in the know, but it doesn't have to be like that. Meditation and sati can work together to fulfill the Buddha's path. So, anyway, it was a very pleasant lunch and we agreed more than we disagreed. I got to personally thank them both for giving me the chance to participate in their group and to learn so much. They both asked me if I am going to continue in the group, and that is a difficult question. I really don't like arguing the same things over and over again and I don't think that the posting format is a good way to communicate effectively- face to face is much better. I was able to understand Jon and Sarah more in person in one afternoon than I have been able to on the Internet for years. Really, that says something! But, I'm not sure yet. I thought that my apartment has Internet provided automatically, but I found out today that I have to pay extra for it (different than what I told Jon and Sarah). But, I have free Internet until the end of September so that gives me enough time to consider if I want to keep it or not. We will see. Hope you enjoyed this report of our meeting. Sorry it is so long. Metta, James Ps. I forgot to add one thing: Sarah is really, really in shape!! When we went running for a taxi to take me back to the airport, I could hardly keep up with her! Don't let that grey hair fool you! ;- )) #62289 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 2:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: no Nina, No Lodewijk. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > a reaction from Lodewijk. He just read your post and he is delighted > with it. He finds the sutta very beautiful and asked me to print out > your post. We shall take it along on our trip. > Nina Well, I am very glad that he appreciated it! Hope you enjoy it on your trip. Metta, James #62290 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 2:40 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 510- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (tranquillity/calm) We can have moments of calm in our daily life when we study the teachings and reflect on them in a wholesome way. The object of reflection is then actually one of the forty meditation subjects of samatha, that is, recollection of the Dhamma. This meditation subject comprises recollection on the teachings as well as recollection on nibbåna and the eight types of lokuttara cittas which experience it, the “nine supramundane dhammas”, included in the Dhamma which is the second of the Triple Gem. There can also be moments of calm when we develop loving kindness or one of the other meditation subjects which suit our inclinations. However, we should remember that it is extremely difficult to attain jhåna or even “access-concentration”(1). We read in the Visuddhimagga (XII, 8) that only very few people, “one in a hundred or a thousand” are able to do so. If someone only wants to develop calm without right understanding of its characteristic, he is likely to cling to calm without knowing it. If calm arises it does so because of conditions and there is no self who can exert power over it. *** 1) See Chapter 6. ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #62291 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fortune-Cookie Dhamma/ Very Brief Post sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi all - > > Last night my wife and I went out to a Chinese restaurant for > dinner > with our younger son & his fiancee, and our older son, daughter-in-law, > and two > granddaughters visiting us from the Dallas, Texas area. ... S: How nice that they are able to travel and visit you with little Sophie:-) .... >I came away with > the > following fortune-cookie message that expresses well my attitude towards > > Buddhist practice: "If you always do what you've always done, you'll > always get > what you've always gotten"!! ;-)) .... S: that's funny.....so do we want to keep getting the same round and round? Metta, Sarah p.s I think you'd have really enjoyed our leisurely lunch with James (and we'd have loved to have you, of course!)....maybe next time he returns to discuss more about anatta, others can think about joining too.... =================== #62292 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mental factors behind Bodily Calm! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita, --- Bhikkhu samahita wrote: > PS: Sarah do you train sitting meditation? > -- ... S: A simple answer is 'no'. I don't think at all in terms of particular activities in my day to be trained. I consider the only training of importance to be at the present moment regardless of the activity, regardless of the dhammas arising. Does that answer it? Metta & Respect, Sarah ===== #62293 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) sarahprocter... Hi Matheesha, Nina, Han & all, --- matheesha wrote: > >re: metta-cetovimutti > >N: Hi Matheesha, > > yes, a lot more. When we read vimutti, it means that also insight > has > > been developed up to the stage of enlightenment. > > * > > M: I seem to recall in the udana's something about the Buddha as a > bodhisattva attaining metta-cetovimutti in a previous life then > becomming a mahabrhama once, sakka several thousand times, a wheel > turning monarch several hundreds of thousands of times and so on. > Unfortunately I can't seem to get hold of that sutta right now, > which i remember reading in the udana. Vimutti here might have > different meanings, not pertaining to the buddhist idea of > arahathship. .... S: I can't find the Udana either that you have in mind (maybe a Jataka or other text), but I'm interested to understand this. Also Han's Vism quote. I see that Nyantiloka (in the dict.) writes that 'boundless deliverance of mind (appamaa.na-ceto-vimutti) is a name for the 4 boundless states and he then lists other uses of ceto-vimutti with a reference to MN 43. In the last section in MN 43 'Deliverance of Mind' the different uses/meanings of ceto-vimutti are given in context. para #31, we read: "What, friend, is the way in which these states are different in meaning and different in name? Here a bhikkhu abides pervading one quarter with a mind imbued with loving-kindness.....etc.....he abides pervading the all-encompassing world with a mind imbude with equanimity.....This is called the immeasurable deliverance of mind." Later, we read about how the various states are one in meaning and different only in name and how "Of all the kinds of immeasurable deliverance of mind, the unshakeable deliverance of mind is pronounced the best." The footnote at the end (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl) gives this quote supporting Nina's comments: "All the four deliverances of mind are one in meaning in that they all refer to the fruition attainment of arahantship. MA also points out that the four deliverances are one in meaning because the terms - the immeasurable, nothingness, voidness, and the signless - are all names for Nibbaana, which is the object of the fruition attainment of arahantship." Interesting... Metta, Sarah ======= #62294 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 3:17 am Subject: born with pa~n~naa nilovg Dear Scott, Kel answered your questions very well. Perhaps I can add something. S: But it is through the mind-door that "seeing" can be "knowing," is this right? ------ N: Seeing knows or cognizes the object, visible object. Seeing is also a kind of knowing. ------ S:That is, pa~n~na does not arise at the sense door, just citta with the universals. It is only through the mind-door that the mental factors operate. -------- N: As Kel said, the sense-door javanas can be accompanied by pa~n~naa, thus, even before an object is defined. This shows us, how fast cittas run, and that whatever votthapana determines is according to accumulations. There is no time to *do* anything, to promote the arising of kusala and pa~n~naa. Also the cetasikas accompanying cittas of a sense-door process perform their functions. As I said before, applied thinking and sustained thinking (vitakka and vicara) accompany the receiving- consciousness, sampa.ticchanacitta and the other cittas of the sense- door process. This is not thinking in conventional sense, they direct citta towards the object, they touch or hit the object. ------- S: I read in The Debate of King Milinda, chapter 3, numbers 7 and 8: "Does mind-consciousness arise whenever eye-consciousness arises?" "Yes, O King, where the one is there the other is." "Which arises first?" "First eye-consciousness then mind-consciousness." "Does eye-consciousness issue a command to mind-consciousness or vice versa?" "No there is no communication between them..." "Where there is mind consciousness, Naagasena, is there always contact and feeling?" "Yes, where there is mind-consciousness there is always contact and feeling. Also perception, intention, initial application, and sustained application." -------- N: As Kel said, this is also in a sense-door process. Initial application, and sustained application are the translations of vitakka and vicara. Mind-consciousness is the translation of mano-vi~n~naa.na. This includes all cittas apart from the sense-cognitions and mano-dhaatu which is sense-door adverting-consciousness and the two types of sampaticchanacitta. Thus, mind consciousness or mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu can refer to santiira.nacitta, votthapanacitta and the javanas of a sense-door process and to registration-consciousness. Maybe your dilemma is solved now? The Milinda passage illustrates that cittas do not give commands to each other: do this, do that. They are elements and they arise according to their proper conditions. Nina. #62295 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice sarahprocter... Hi Joop, --- Joop wrote: > One of the topics in this thread we were talking about was the meaning > of the Noble Eightfold Path (NEP) > Skipping subtilities I said: the NEP are eight things to do again and > again. > And you said: the are eight Path-moments. .... S: OK .... > > Now my question is: are you an ekabhisamaya and maybe I an > anupubbabhisamaya ? > I base this question on the (rather new for me) essay of Bhikkhu > Sujato, "What the Buddha Really Taught; The Pali Âgamas and Chinese > Nikâyas" .... S: Let's see:-) .... > > A quote: "… let's consider what the Saṁyutta of the Theravâdins > and > the Saṁyukta of the Sarvâstivâdins tell us about how the four > noble > truths are realized in time. The Theravâda says that one who sees any > one of the four noble truths also sees the others (SN 56.30). This > sutta, which has no counterpart in the Sarvâstivâda, implies that the > four truths are realized all at once. In contrast, a number of > Sarvâstivâda suttas, which have no Theravâda counterparts, say that > one will come to know each of the four noble truths in sequence, one > after the other (SA 435-437). This relates to the disputed question of > sudden (ekabhisamaya) versus gradual (anupubbabhisamaya) attainment. > Appropriately, the Theravâda was a classic ekabhisamaya school, and in > their Abhidhamma they developed the theory that all the four noble > truths were realized in one mind moment. .... S: This doesn't mean that there isn't a very gradual path leading up to that moment of enlightenment when all the Noble Truths are fully realized. .... >The Sarvâstivâdin Abhidharma > argued the contrary position, that the truths were realized gradually. > This dispute became one of the major sectarian battlegrounds in later > Chinese Buddhism, but its roots appear already in the Saṁyuttas." .... S: Interesting. Yes, according to the texts, the magga citta fully realized the 4NT, but without the gradual development of the mundane path, the path of satipatthana, there could not be any magga citta. "Bhikkhus, one who sees suffering also sees the origin of suffering, also sees the cessation of suffering, also sees the way leading to the cessation of suffering." SN 56:30 As to your original question - I don't see any reason to doubt what I read in the Theravada texts. Metta, Sarah ======== #62296 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Chanda sarahprocter... Hi Rahula, Nice to see you after a long time. --- rahula_80 wrote: > Hi, > > I am Pali illiterate. I hope someone can help me. > > Did the Buddha really said desire (chanda) have to be eliminated? ... S: Chanda (interest) can be wholesome or unwholesome. For example, now there may be keen interest in reading, writing or eating some food. Such interest may be kusala or akusala, depending on the other mental factors it accompanies. It may be with attachment (lobha) or with detachment (alobha). Only sati can be aware of its nature when it arises. .... > > From the Accestoinsight website, it says: > > (i) As one of the fetters (Sanyojana): AN 10.13 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.013.than.html > > (ii) As one of the obsessions (Anusaya): AN 7.11, AN 7.12 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.011.than.html > > (iii) As the cause of suffering and stress: SN 42.11 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.011.than.html > > (iv)~ ties down the world: SN 1.69 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.069.than.html > > (v) Why ~ and passion connected with the senses is worth abandoning: > SN 27.1-8 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn27/sn27.001- > 010.than.html > > (vi) Why ~ and passion connected with the khandha (aggregates) is > worth abandoning: SN 27.10 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn27/sn27.001- > 010.than.html#sn27.010 > > (vi) Why ~ and passion connected with the dhatu (elements) is worth > abandoning: SN 27.9 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn27/sn27.001- > 010.than.html#sn27.009 .... S: In all the references you give, it would be referring to unwholesome (akusala) cittas with akusala chanda. ... > > On the other hand, I was told that chanda means esire, a neutral > term, not necessarily bad. .... S: It's what is referred to as a 'paki.n.nakaa' (particular) mental factor like vitakka, vicaara, viriya, piiti and ahimokkha. This means that it depends on the citta and other factors as to whether they are kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya cittas. In the case of chanda, it can arise with any of the cittas accompanied by lobha (attachment)and with some kinds of dosa (aversion) only. It also arises with all 'good' or sobhana cittas. Of course its characteristic is quite different depending on what it arises with. Same with effort, joy, determination and the other factors in the list above. .... > > I have also heard of the word dhammachanda and kusalachanda. DO > these words have any canonical basis? .... Dhammachanda would refer to interest (in a good sense) in the dhamma. Kusalachanda refers to wholesome chanda as I've mentioned above. Lots of refs in the Abhidhamma. I don't know if the suttas use the term kusala chanda, but lots and lots of suttas refer to the wholesome kind of kusala chanda without needing to mention 'kusala', eg SN51:13 Please let me know if this isn't clear. Metta, Sarah ============= #62297 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner - Non-Aversion (adosa) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: >I would like to refer to a passage from SN > 35.238 Aasiivisopama sutta (The Simile of the Vipers). > > > Quote [“Then, bhikkhus, afraid of the four vipers of > fierce heat and deadly venom, and of the five > murderous enemies, that man would flee in one > direction or another. They would tell him: “Good man, > a sixth murderer, an intimate companion, is pursuing > you with drawn sword, thinking, ‘Whenever I see him I > will cut off his head right on the spot.’ Do whatever > has to be done, good man!”] End quote. > > Commentary explanation: The king spoke to his > ministers thus: “first, when he was pursued by the > vipers, he fled here and there, tricking them. Now, > when pursued by five enemies, he flees even more > swiftly. We can’t catch him, but by trickery we can. > Therefore send as a murderer an intimate companion > from his youth, one who used to eat and drink with > him.” The ministers then sought out such a companion > and sent him as a murderer. > > Towards the end of the sutta, the Buddha explained > that “The sixth murderer, the intimate companion with > drawn sword: this is a designation for delight and > lust (nandi raaga).” > > Thus, selfish affection is like an enemy who is near > us all the time, who can kill us anytime like the > intimate companion murderer in SN 35.238, and yet we > may not even be aware of it as a near enemy. .... S: Such a good reminder. We've talked about old age, separations, living alone and so on and yet we forget all the time that 'selfish affection' is the murderous companion. It reminds me of the Migajaala Sutta (SN 35:63) and others which remind us of the real meaning of living alone: "Because craving is his partner, and he has abandoned it; therefore he is called a lone dweller." Thank you for your responses again and good reminders of the near enemy, ready to 'kill' us anytime. Metta, Sarah p.s Lots more in 'useful posts' under 'seclusion', 'alone' and so on. ================= #62298 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 12:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Jon & Sarah) - In a message dated 8/8/06 5:01:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi All, > > Well, I am finally settled into an apartment in Taichung, Taiwan. I > am very, very tired as I have been on the constant go for eight days > now, but I thought I would write a post about my lunch meeting with > Sarah and Jon while it is still fresh in my mind. > ======================= Great report, James! So happy that your meeting went so very well! :-) My best to you, James, on your new venture! May all go very well. Do keep up with your practice - the entire 8-fold enterprise (LOL!). With metta, Howard #62299 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fortune-Cookie Dhamma/ Very Brief Post upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/8/06 5:49:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >Hi all - > > > > Last night my wife and I went out to a Chinese restaurant for > >dinner > >with our younger son &his fiancee, and our older son, daughter-in-law, > >and two > >granddaughters visiting us from the Dallas, Texas area. > ... > S: How nice that they are able to travel and visit you with little > Sophie:-) --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, thanks! :-) It was wonderful. And sophie is *amazing*! She has become beautiful, brilliantly attentive, and has the sweetest, most gorgeous (and very frequent) loving smile! I'm delighted by her and besotted with her!! ---------------------------------------- > .... > >I came away with > >the > >following fortune-cookie message that expresses well my attitude towards > > > >Buddhist practice: "If you always do what you've always done, you'll > >always get > >what you've always gotten"!! ;-)) > .... > S: that's funny.....so do we want to keep getting the same round and > round? --------------------------------------------- Howard: Nope - sure don't! :-) --------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I think you'd have really enjoyed our leisurely lunch with James (and > we'd have loved to have you, of course!)....maybe next time he returns to > discuss more about anatta, others can think about joining too.... > -------------------------------------------- Howard: From your end and from James', your get-together sounds like it was wonderful!! ======================= With metta, Howard #62300 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 4:37 am Subject: Re: born with pa~n~naa scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you. N: "Maybe your dilemma is solved now?" I think so. I'll think about it more. You (and Kel) have helped clarify. N: "The Milinda passage illustrates that cittas do not give commands to each other: do this, do that. They are elements and they arise according to their proper conditions." I like the Debate of King Milinda. With loving kindness, Scott. #62301 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 4:45 am Subject: Re: reborn with pa~n`naa scottduncan2 Dear Kel, Much thanks. You and Nina have been very helpful. K: "I'm using citta/consciousness also and vithi/process. Your posts just sounded like you were mixing up things from two levels. If you're looking at just one process and the cittas that arise then it's the same object that lasts 17 mind moments." Got it. That's helpful. I'll remember to distinguish viithi from citta as I consider this. You are correct about the dilemma I was finding myself in the midst of. I'll think more about this. With loving kindness, Scott. #62302 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and Jon & Sarah) - > ======================= > Great report, James! So happy that your meeting went so very well! :-) Thank you Howard. I'm glad that you liked it. I wasn't sure how to present so I just took my best shot. I knew that it would go well or I wouldn't have wanted to meet Jon and Sarah so much. You have to listen to your heart/gut instincts in this regard. I really wish that I could meet you one day but I don't see the possibility of that happening. But one never knows. ;-)) > My best to you, James, on your new venture! May all go very well. Thank you so much for your well wishes! It is kinda tough for me right now but I do see some light at the end of the tunnel. ;-)) Actually, it is so good for me to learn that with every connection I must learn to let go. Thank you. Do > keep up with your practice - the entire 8-fold enterprise (LOL!). I'm not quite sure what your LOL means in this statement, but I don't want it to be some kind of double meaning. I will follow the 8 fold path as I see fit and others will follow the same as they see fit- we are all just blind idiots groping around in the dark. May some of us find the key to the light!!!!!!!!!! > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James #62303 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 8/8/06 8:31:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Do > >keep up with your practice - the entire 8-fold enterprise (LOL!). > > I'm not quite sure what your LOL means in this statement, but I > don't want it to be some kind of double meaning. I will follow the > 8 fold path as I see fit and others will follow the same as they see > fit- we are all just blind idiots groping around in the dark. May > some of us find the key to the light!!!!!!!!!! > ===================== Nothing cryptic meant. Your perspective, if I understand it, and much the same as mine, is that Dhamma practice involves all the "samma links" as cultivational practices, which is different from Jon and Sarah's take on "practice" as consisting of whatever arises and ceases in the moment, with the elements of the noble 8-fold path all occuring together at the moment of path & fruit (or something along those lines). With metta, Howard #62304 From: han tun Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner - Non-Aversion (adosa) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for pointing out SN 35.63 Migajaala sutta. I have read it before, but I am reading it again and I find it very useful. Also, thank you for letting me know that a lot more is in the ‘useful posts.’ Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > It reminds me of the Migajaala Sutta (SN 35:63) and > others which remind us of the real meaning of living > alone: > Metta, > Sarah > p.s Lots more in 'useful posts' under 'seclusion', > 'alone' and so on. > ================= > #62305 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah nilovg Hi Howard, that is a sentence full of contents! If you read the Vis. study 93 it may (I hope) be clear what these links are: cetasikas arising and falling away with the citta. When the path is mundane (this is conventional!) not all path-factors that are these cetasikas (this is ultimate, not conventional) arise together. This happens only when the path (the cetasikas) is lokuttara. For now there is the development of five or six factors. Six if there are one of the three siila factors. These siila factors can arise only one at a time. The pathfactors are being developed, and right view or right understanding is still weak. When it arises it is accompanied by right thinking, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration, thus at this moment when there is no opportunity for abstinence, five cetasikas. These five cetasikas accompany citta and they must experience an object: the object of which understanding is being developed. That is, nama or rupa. Not yesterday's nama or rupa, but the dhamma appearing now, because only that object can be known more clearly. This is the practice of vipassanaa, not anyone's take on it! Nina. Op 8-aug-2006, om 14:40 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Your perspective, if I understand it, and much > the same as mine, is that Dhamma practice involves all the "samma > links" as > cultivational practices, which is different from Jon and Sarah's > take on > "practice" as consisting of whatever arises and ceases in the > moment, with the > elements of the noble 8-fold path all occuring together at the > moment of path & > fruit (or something along those lines). #62306 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 6:56 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 47 nilovg Dear friends, Someone may think that he can truly know himself without knowing the world as it appears through the six doors. He may think that he knows his anger and attachment, but, in fact, he has not experienced them as they are: only different types of nåma and not self. So long as he has wrong view of realities he does not really know himself and he cannot eradicate defilements. He clings to an idea, to the concept of self; he has not directly experienced any characteristic of reality. It is difficult to know when there are lobha, dosa and moha, and it is difficult to be aware also of the more subtle degrees of akusala. When we start to develop ``insight'', right understanding of realities, we realize how little we know ourselves. When there is moha we live in darkness. It was the Buddha's great compassion which moved him to teach people Dhamma. Dhamma is the light which can dispel darkness. If we do not know Dhamma we are ignorant about the world, about ourselves; we are ignorant about good and ill deeds and their results; we are ignorant about the way to eradicate defilements. The study of the Abhidhamma will help us to know more about the characteristic of moha. The Atthasåliní (Book II, Part IX, chapter I, 249) states about moha: ``Delusion'' (moha) has the characteristic of blindness or opposition to knowledge; the essence of non-penetration, or the function of covering the intrinsic nature of the object; the manifestation of being opposed to right conduct or causing blindness; the proximate cause of unwise attention; and it should be regarded as the root of all akusala... There are many degrees of moha. When we study Dhamma we become less ignorant about realities; we understand more about paramattha dhammas, about kamma and vipåka. However, this does not mean that we can already eradicate moha. Moha cannot be eradicated merely by thinking of the truth; it can only be eradicated by developing the wisdom which knows ``the world in the ariyan sense'': eyesense, visible object, seeing-consciousness, earsense, sound, hearing- consciousness, and all realities appearing through the six doors. When we study the Abhidhamma we learn that moha arises with all akusala cittas. Lobha-múla-cittas have moha and lobha as roots; dosa- múla-cittas have moha and lobha as roots. There are two types of akusala citta which have moha as their only root, these are moha-múla- cittas. One type of moha-múla-citta is moha-múla-citta accompanied by doubt (in Påli: vicikicchå), and one type is moha-múla-citta accompanied by restlessness (in Påli: uddhacca). The feeling which accompanies moha-múla-cittas is always indifferent feeling (upekkhå). When the citta is moha-múla-citta there is no like or dislike; one does not have pleasant or unpleasant feeling. Both types of moha-múla- citta are unprompted (asa.nkhaarika). *** Nina. #62307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 7:00 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 28. nilovg Dear friends, When we know more about the conditions for grief, we can understand that grief is only a mental element. Grief does not last, it falls away as soon as it has arisen. It may arise again, but then it is a different moment of grief. When we learn to see grief as a conditioned phenomenon, we will think less in terms of 'my grief', and thus we will be less overpowered by it. Our life consists not only of grief, there are many other realities which arise. When there is, for example, seeing or hearing, there cannot be grief at the same time. When we learn to know the present moment, we will worry less about the past. What has happened, has happened already, how can we change it now? What can be done now is the development of right understanding of the present moment. We read in one of the 'Jatakas', the Birthstories of the Bodhisatta, in the 'Birthstory about Desire' (Kama Jataka, no. 467 3 ) about grief, conditioned by clinging. In the commentary to this story we read that a brahmin cultivated corn with the greatest care. He had the intention to give alms to the Buddha and his disciples when it was ripe. However, the night before he was to reap it, a great flood of rain carried away the whole crop. The brahmin pressed his hand to his heart, because he was overcome with grief, went home weeping and lay down lamenting. The Buddha came in order to console him and said: 'Why, will what is lost come back when you grieve?' The Brahmin answered: 'No, Gotama, that will not.' The Buddha then said: 'If that is so, why grieve? The wealth of beings in this world, or their corn, when they have it, they have it, and when it is gone, why, it is gone. There is no composite thing that is not subject to destruction; do not brood over it.' ****** Nina. #62308 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 3:49 am Subject: Path Factors (Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/8/06 9:46:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > that is a sentence full of contents! > If you read the Vis. study 93 it may (I hope) be clear what these > links are: cetasikas arising and falling away with the citta. When > the path is mundane (this is conventional!) not all path-factors that > are these cetasikas (this is ultimate, not conventional) arise > together. This happens only when the path (the cetasikas) is lokuttara. > For now there is the development of five or six factors. Six if there > are one of the three siila factors. These siila factors can arise > only one at a time. > The pathfactors are being developed, and right view or right > understanding is still weak. When it arises it is accompanied by > right thinking, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration, > thus at this moment when there is no opportunity for abstinence, five > cetasikas. > These five cetasikas accompany citta and they must experience an > object: the object of which understanding is being developed. That > is, nama or rupa. Not yesterday's nama or rupa, but the dhamma > appearing now, because only that object can be known more clearly. > This is the practice of vipassanaa, not anyone's take on it! > Nina. > Op 8-aug-2006, om 14:40 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >Your perspective, if I understand it, and much > >the same as mine, is that Dhamma practice involves all the "samma > >links" as > >cultivational practices, which is different from Jon and Sarah's > >take on > >"practice" as consisting of whatever arises and ceases in the > >moment, with the > >elements of the noble 8-fold path all occuring together at the > >moment of path & > >fruit (or something along those lines). > ========================== Nina, my reading of the suttas is that the noble 8-fold path is quite conventional. Right livelihood, for example, is the holding of an occupation that is moral, and not immoral - excluding for example the sale of munitions and poisons, and so on. Specifically, there is the following: "A lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison."— AN 5.177 This is an habitual matter, and not just a momentary one. So long as one holds a harmless occupation, even when on vacation, s/he is engaged in right livelihood. Right speech amounts to speaking harmlessly. It occurs whenever one is speaking harmlessly, and that is an extended activity, it is conventional. Specifically, there is the following: "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."— SN 45.8 Right action is defined as follows: "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity. This is called right action."— SN 45.8 What is involved here is an ongoing pattern of behavior, and not just moments of abstention. With regard to the last two, you and others will say that they occur at the moment that the impulse to abstain occurs in the face of a temptation to indulge. I agree with that, but I don't think that is the whole story. Those are the critical "test points". But the temptation is extended and repeated, and so is the abstention. Everything that is conventional but also real reduces to momentary activities, but it is a mistake to ignore the matter of an ongoing pattern - a habitual pattern of behavior. That, in fact, was primarily what the Buddha was addressing in the suttas, IMO. With metta, Howard #62309 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 8:00 am Subject: Re: Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah philofillet Hi Howard >which is different from Jon and Sarah's take on > "practice" How long have you been discussing with Jon and Sarah, Howard, and how long have you read their patiently explained *text based* points? And yet it has been reduced to their *take* on it. Really tiresome. Phil #62310 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 8/8/06 11:01:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > >which is different from Jon and Sarah's take on > >"practice" > > How long have you been discussing with Jon and Sarah, Howard, and how > long have you read their patiently explained *text based* points? And > yet it has been reduced to their *take* on it. > > Really tiresome. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Gee, that's too bad, Phil! Hope you get some rest soon! ----------------------------------------- > > > Phil > ===================== With metta, Howard #62311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 9:26 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 47, typo. nilovg Dear friends, here is a typo: dosa-múla-cittas have moha and lobha as roots. Change into: dosa-múla-cittas have moha and dosa as roots. Nina. #62312 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 5:27 am Subject: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - The following is a "textual" explication of right speech by the Buddha. It is quite conventional and pertains to extended, habitual, conventional activity and propensity, and it includes positive action as well as abstention: Herein someone avoids false speech and abstains from it. He speaks the truth, is devoted to truth, reliable, worthy of confidence, not a deceiver of people. Being at a meeting, or amongst people, or in the midst of his relatives, or in a society, or in the king's court, and called upon and asked as witness to tell what he knows, he answers, if he knows nothing: "I know nothing," and if he knows, he answers: "I know"; if he has seen nothing, he answers: "I have seen nothing," and if he has seen, he answers: "I have seen." Thus he never knowingly speaks a lie, either for the sake of his own advantage, or for the sake of another person's advantage, or for the sake of any advantage whatsoever. He avoids slanderous speech and abstains from it. What he has heard here he does not repeat there, so as to cause dissension there; and what he has heard there he does not repeat here, so as to cause dissension here. Thus he unites those that are divided; and those that are united he encourages. Concord gladdens him, he delights and rejoices in concord; and it is concord that he spreads by his words. He avoids harsh language and abstains from it. He speaks such words as are gentle, soothing to the ear, loving, such words as go to the heart, and are courteous, friendly, and agreeable to many. He avoids idle chatter and abstains from it. He speaks at the right time, in accordance with facts, speaks what is useful, speaks of the Dhamma and the discipline; his speech is like a treasure, uttered at the right moment, accompanied by reason, moderate and full of sense. With metta, Howard P.S. I repeat here a part of the foregoing material that I think is important for getting along well, especially with Dhamma friends: "He speaks such words as are gentle, soothing to the ear, loving, such words as go to the heart, and are courteous, friendly, and agreeable to many." #62313 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 10:32 am Subject: Rob K on listening, 3 nilovg Dear friends, I quote again from Rob K's forum, from an old letter he wrote before: Rob K: When we read this we should know that there was direct insight into nama and rupa happening even during the time he was reflecting. We might think we have to get "my mind calm first" before understanding can come. But even the idea of a mind is a delusion let alone My mind. The theory shows one that nothing lasts even for a moment. here I am talikng about vipassana,. For sila, samatha or giving one can still have such self-view and perform these good deeds - but not for vipassana. The theory gives enough understanding so that all states can be dissected. Dissected even while they are happening. All the khandas (aggregates), all the time are in a flux; there is nothing good about them. They are, as the Patisambhidhimagga says, a disease and alien, not self. Do we think calmness is good, better than agitation? They are both merely conditioned phenomena, they pass away instantly. The Atthasalini, (triplets p451)defines "ignorant average man" as: QUOTE Expositor "owing to the absense of access to the Scriptures, and of the higher attainment of the path and fruition. For to whoever owing to the absense of learning by heart and deduction therefrom regarding the khandas(aggregates) elements(dhatus) sense-organs(ayatanas) the causal mode, the applications of mindfulness etc there is NO attainment of that learning which represses opinionativeness, nor any access, owing to the non-attainment of what should be attained by conduct. Such a person, from the absense of such access and such attainment should be known as ignorant" In the Netti-Pakarana (translated as the Guide, PTS) p7. It explains the vipallasa, perversions of view. These are the perception of seeing the ugly as beautiful, the dukkha as sukha, the impermanent as permanent and the not self as self. These vipallasas are said to be overcome repectively by the cattaro satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness). Satipatthana sees realities as they really are - ugly, dukkha, impermanent and not-self. This is a gradual seeing though. The first phase (cira kala bhavana -long, long time development) is investigating and learning the characteristics (visesa lakkhana) of paramattha dhammas as they are. ****** Nina #62314 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 11:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil nilovg hi Howard, a sutta that I really appreciate, especially about not repeating things. I shall think more on what you wrote to me in your other post. Nina. Op 8-aug-2006, om 18:27 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > What he has heard here he > does not repeat there, so as to cause dissension there; and what he > has heard > there he does not repeat here, so as to cause dissension here. Thus > he unites > those that are divided; and those that are united he encourages. > Concord > gladdens him, he delights and rejoices in concord; and it is > concord that he spreads > by his words. #62315 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 7:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/8/06 2:08:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > hi Howard, > a sutta that I really appreciate, especially about not repeating things. > I shall think more on what you wrote to me in your other post. ------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Nina. It's always a pleasure to talk with you. Agreement on everything isn't necessary, but respect and good friendship are! :-) -------------------------------------- > Nina. > =================== With metta, Howard #62316 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil nilovg Hi Howard, I feel the same. Actually, I find it useful to consider what you wrote, and it touches on the two ways of viewing things: conventional and ultimate. A subject I find important. Nina. Op 8-aug-2006, om 20:12 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Thank you, Nina. It's always a pleasure to talk with you. Agreement on > everything isn't necessary, but respect and good friendship are! :- #62317 From: connie Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 11:37 am Subject: Re: black mail nichiconn c: "p135"<>" S: Okay, here's where I show how thick I really am. The mind-door adverting consciousness cognises the object as it is, to its own extent and no more. Is that it? And what are the objects potentially to be cognised? Those only from the five sense-doors? Or even mind-objects? Are there mind-objects arising without having entered through the sense-doors? I'd say yes. Back to the books... dear Scott, You seem to be in good hands, but just one more answer from Nina's 'Dhamma Issues' (avail @ zolag): Ch1 - The Aayatanas, note 5: << There are six classes of objects: five classes of the five sense objects and the sixth class which is dhammaaramma.na. Dhammaaramma.na can be experienced only through the mind-door; it includes: the five sense-organs, the subtle ruupas, citta, cetasika, nibbaana and concepts. >> and (not just to show my own thickness, but) because it was helpful, I copy an old post from another friend (and list) below. peace, connie Subject: [DSList] Re: Vithi Citta's Date: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 8:59 PM --- In DSList@yahoogroups.com, "connie" wrote: > Hi, Steve. >First, I would apologize for mis-spelled words: dvi-pancavinnasa and > tadarammasa should be dvi-pancavinnana and darammana. Then, I think the > "17 citta sense door process" is misleading since not all of the active > cognitive processes will include all 17 citta moments and that it is > also stated in some places that a normal process is 15 cittas. I would > call the whole thing cittavitthi or thought process instead of sense > door process since I believe it includes the mind door events. The > bhavangas that are not involved in the cittavitthi are vithi-mutta. > Dear Steve, Connie, and friends, {i've cut out a paragraph on yahoo/hotmail issues} About the cittas, let us go back to the fact that the cittas arise either in a process or outside it. The ones outside the processes are the patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas, all other kinds of cittas arise in processes. There are two kinds of processes, ones that include the dvipanca vinnanas or the two [good and bad or kusala and akusala vipaka cittas] kinds of cittas that arise at the five [dvaras] senses. These are the actual cittas that arise to experience a precise rupa through a precise dvara, for example the cakkhu [eye] vinnana [citta that experiences clearly] that arises to see through the cakkhu dvara [eye sense (or door or path)]. When we see pleasant things as a result of a good past kamma, the kind of citta is called kusala [good] vipaka [result of kamma]. on the contrary, when we see unpleasant things as a result of a bad past kamma, the kind of citta is called akusala [bad] vipaka [result of kamma]. The same applies to all the rest of the five senses, hence the dvi [two] panca [five] vinnanas [cittas]. It is to be noted that only these ten cittas arise at their pasada [sense bases that kamma conditions to arise] rupas that serve as their vatthus [birthplace of the cittas] when conditions are right [when the ruparammana, vatthu and the citta (+ cetasikas) meet to become ayatana or meeting place for the citta to arise and experience the arammana (or object of the citta)]; all the rest of the cittas, no matter the function, arise at the hadayavatthu rupa [except the arupabrahma world where there is no rupa]. When the vithi vara cittas [process of cittas] include one of the ten dvipanca vinnanas, the process is called the panca dvara vithi or five sense door process, when the bhavangas stop, the mind becomes alert to the senses and the actual ruparammana is experienced, and the citta passes the arammana to the manodvara to experience or run through the same object as well, where the mind reacts to the arammana according to the accumulated tendencies. For example when we see the color red, some people might have the tendency to like or dislike it. The entire process is faster than the speed of any rupa, faster than turning on the light since electricity is only a rupa and the citta is at least 17 times faster. After the tiny instant of experiencing the object, the mind usually thinks of the arammana and all sorts of connotations it has of the arammana, according to the accumulated memory of the experiences. Sometimes just an instant of seeing the colors 'on the computer screen' one thinks of endless stories, even when other arammanas have appeared through other dvaras, we would keep being obsessed by what we 'read' or think of the colors that we see through the eyes and the manodvara or thoughts based on what we 'see'. The manodvara vithi is what we call the thoughts or experiences through the manodvara that follows the panca dvara vithis, as well as arise by itself such as when we daydream or think of some past arammana or memory or speculations about concepts, or even when we dream as we sleep; when no arammana appears at any of the senses but we think of things and events from past experiences or speculate about them in the future, and the arammanas can be as 'real' to us then, appearing only to the mano dvara, as it is right now when we are seeing while we are awake. When the manodvara vithi is part of the panca dvara vithi, it is considered the pancadvara vithi as well, and the manodvaravaccana citta that 'switches' from the pancadvara vithi to the javanas would be called the votthappana citta instead, and there would be no bhavangas interposing. After the sense process has fallen away, the bhavangas arise, then the mano dvara processes would arise to continue to think and react, as well as condition actions to arise as physical, verbal or mental kamma, during the javana cittas. Several manodvara processes can follow a single panca dvara vithi vara, although the processes would be interposed by at least 2 bhavangas. A tiny moment of seeing right now is composed of countless processes through several dvaras, so that we think that we see and hear and use the computer at the same time, whereas, like the light beam that sweeps tiny dots of light across the screen making it appear as an integral page, all this is expereinced through the citta that arises in and outside processes. Without the Buddha's enlightenment, we could never know this even in theory. As we have seen in an earlier message, The order of arising of the vithi-cittas through the panca-dvara is as follows: 1. Atita-bhavanga 2. Bhavanga-jalana -- three non-vithi-cittas 3. Bhavangupaccheda 4. Panca-dvaravajjana-citta 5. Dvi-pancavinnana-citta 6. Sampaticchanna-citta -- vithi-cittas 7. Santirana-citta 8. Votthapana-citta [the exact same type of citta as the manodvaravajjana citta] 9. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta 10. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta 11. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta -- the seven javana- 12. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta vithi-cittas 13. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta 14. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta 15. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta 16. Tadalambana-citta 17. Tadalambana-citta -- the two tadalambana- vithi-cittas The duration of the sabhava-rupa [non-intelligence, non-conscious reality] equals the arising and falling away of 17 instants of citta. The manodvara is much shorter: The order of arising of the vithi-cittas through the mano-dvara comprises three processes: 1. Bhavanga-jalana --non-vithi-citta 2. Bhavangupaccheda 3. Mano-dvaravajjana-citta --vithi-citta 4. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta 5. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta 6. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta 7. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta -- the 7 javana-vithi-cittas 8. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta 9. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta 10. Kusala, akusala or kiriya-citta 11. Tadalambana-citta 12. Tadalambana-citta --the two tadalambana-vithi-cittas. > I think rather than saying: > bhavanga cittas -- 17 citta sense door process -- bhanvanga calana -- > bhavangupacceda -- javanas -- tadarammanas -- bhavangas, > I would say: > bhavangas -- sensory consciousness -- mind door process(es) -- > bhavangas. >Amara or someone else will probably explain it to both of us better. In > particular, I would hope they would address the idea that "each process > of knowing arammana through each dvara must be interposed by > bhavanga-citta between the processes through the panca-dvara and those > of the mano-dvara." > The panca dvara vithi varas normally include the javanas, and once the process has fallen away, there must be bhavanga cittas between the varas. For example right now when seeing arises in a vara, the bhavangas arise followed by hearing, then seeing again, followed by bhavangas and the mano dvara vithi, thinking about what one has just seen, followed by more bhavangas and more thinking, then bhavangas and then thinking again and again. The perhaps more seeing etc. This would take place so rapidly it would have been a single little split second to us. This is why when people say they can stop the process at certain cittas, we know that it is impossible, by the time we are aware of the process, it is already over, although we can be aware of the characteristics of the arammana more and more clearly with satipatthana, including knowing the kind of citta that had just fallen away, for example when we 'see' the color 'red', or when we 'think of the color with lobha or dosa', or 'the combination of cetasikas that compose the cittas at that time' or are simply aware of the reality that appears at that particular moment. Sati and panna are the only realities fast enough to 'catch' the exact characteristics of the cittas and cetasikas, as well as the arammanas as they really are, when satipatthana arises at the javanas as well. Panna and sati are accumulated each time conditions are right for satipatthana to arise, making the next moments of sati arise more easily. This is a very intricate and complicated affair, I think, and personally it took me a long time to grasp. I hope the above is of some use to you, again, the main objective is not to know as many names as possible but to see that all are just different kinds of namas and rupas, not the self who experiences anything, we only think we do. Anumodana with your studies, Amara > In the meantime, msg. 146 in the archives might be instructive. >thank you for raising these questions. > connie #62318 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 8:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/8/06 2:24:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I feel the same. ---------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! :-) -------------------------------- > Actually, I find it useful to consider what you wrote, and it touches > on the two ways of viewing things: conventional and ultimate. A > subject I find important. -------------------------------- Howard: As do I. And I consider them both valid for their respective purposes, with the ultimate view being, of course, ... ultimate, and the conventional view being valid only when properly understood as merely a very useful mental shorthand. I do think that the conventional perspective is necessary for thinking, for understanding of vast complexity, and for communication for worldlings if not also "lower" ariyans. I doubt, however, that the conventional perspective was at all necessary for a Buddha's understanding. But even for him it was needed for purposes of communication to those beings lacking his wisdom. ----------------------------------- > Nina. > ==================== With metta, Howard #62319 From: Illusion Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 3:19 pm Subject: UPDATE: "Shades" Dhamma talk by Bhante Pannadipa vvhite_illusion Dhamma talk by Bhante Pannadipa is now available on mp3 format www.silashin.org/audio/pannadipa.mp3 On 8/7/06, Illusion wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > The Dhamma talk by Bhante Pannadipa, "Shades" can be listened to from > this link below: > www.silashin.org/audio/PannyaDipa.WMA > > Summary: > > Bhante Pannadipa talked about the different kinds of "shades" in our lives. > > The first is the tree; with dense leaves trees can provide shade for > us in times of extreme heat (such as the one we've experienced several > weeks ago). > > Second is our relatives; our relatives can provide psychological > support (that soothes us) during times of hardship. > > Third is our parents; our parents are like our "Gods". They provide > psychological, material, and physical support. > > Fourth is the government; government always "tries" to protect us and > fulfills our needs in order to survive in this society. > > The fifth is Buddhasasana; Buddha's teachings provide the real and > ultimate support. Dhamma teaches us to become independent when all > the four kinds of shades (as aforementioned) fail to support us. > > Thus, when we chant (in the temple or at home) we are really taking > refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. We chant not for speech therapy > nor for the sake of exercising our mouths (so that it would not become > stiff), but Bhante Pannadipa explains the true reason why it is we > chant, why it is we take refuge in the Triple Gem. > > > Metta, -- []\/[][]D (Maya Putra) "It is easy enough to be pleasant; When life flows like a sweet song. But the man worthwhile, Is the one who can smile, When things go dead wrong." -=S. N. GOENKA=- #62320 From: connie Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 3:36 pm Subject: old-fashioned sexist terminology nichiconn dear scott, howard, not to worry. two-finger wits understand: "Those Great Beings Were Only Men". c. from: A Treatise on the Paaramiis: << Through his freedom from wrong view he gains good companions. Even if he is threatened with the guillotine, he will not perform an evil deed. Because he holds to the ownership of kamma, he does not believe in superstitious omens. His faith in the true Dhamma is established and firmly rooted. He has faith in the enlightenment of the Tathaagatas, and no more delights in the diversity of outside creeds than a royal swan delights in a dung heap. He is skilful in fully understanding the three characteristics (of impermanence, suffering, and non-self), and in the end gains the unobstructed knowledge of omniscience. Until he attains final enlightenment he becomes the foremost in whatever order of beings (he happens to be reborn in), and acquires the most excellent achievements. Thus, esteeming virtue as the foundation for all achievements - as the soil for the origination of all the Buddha-qualities, the beginning, footing, head, and chief of all the dhammas issuing in Buddhahood - and recognizing gain, honour, and fame as a foe in the guise of a friend, a bodhisattva should diligently and thoroughly perfect his virtue as a hen guards its eggs: through the power of mindfulness and clear comprehension in the control of bodily and vocal action, in the taming of the sense-faculties, in purification of livelihood, and in the use of the requisites. This firstly, is the method of practising virtue as avoidance. The practice of virtue as performance should be understood as follows: - Herein, at the appropriate time, a bodhisattva practices salutation, rising up, making a~njali, and courteous conduct towards good friends worthy of reverence. At the appropriate time he renders them service, and he waits upon them when they are sick. When he receives well-spoken advice he expresses his appreciaiton. He praises the noble qualities of the virtuous and patiently endures the abuse of antagonists. He remembers help rendered to him by others, rejoices in their merits, dedicates his own merits to the supreme enlightenment, and always abides diligently in the practice of wholesome dhammas. When he commits a transgression he acknowledges it as such and confesses it to his co-religionist. Afterwards he perfectly fulfils the right practice. He is adroit and nimble in fulfilling his duties towards beings when these are conducive to their good. He serves as their companion. When beings are afflicted with the suffering of disease, etc., he prepares the appropriate remedy. He dispels the sorrow of those afflicted by the loss of wealth, etc. Of a helpful disposition, he restrains with Dhamma those who need to be restrained, rehabilitates them from unwholesome ways, and establishes them in wholesome courses of conduct. He inspires with Dhamma those in need of inspiration. And when he hears about the loftiest, most difficult, inconceivably powerful deeds of the great bodhisattvas of the past, issuing in the ultimate welfare and happiness of beings, by means of issuing in the ultimate welfare and happiness of beings, by means of which they reached perfect maturity in the requisites of enlightenment, he does not become agitated and alarmed, but reflects: "Those Great Beings were only men. But by developing themselves through the orderly fulfilment of the training they attained the loftiest spiritual power and the highest perfection in the requisites of enlightenment. I, too, should practise the same training and in the end attain the same state." Then, with unflagging energy preceded by this faith, he perfectly fulfils the training in virtue, etc. Again, he conceals his virtues and reveals his faults. He is few in his wishes, content, fond of solitude, aloof, capable of enduring suffering, and free from anxiety. He is not restless, puffed up, fickle, scurrilous, or scattered in speedh, but calm in his faculties and mind. Avoiding such wrong means of livlihood as scheming, etc.>> >> (p288) #62321 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 4:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Just to confirm re "noble instructed disciple" (Nina) matheesha333 Hi Sara, Han, Nina > --- matheesha wrote: > > >re: metta-cetovimutti > > >N: Hi Matheesha, > > > yes, a lot more. When we read vimutti, it means that also insight > > has > > > been developed up to the stage of enlightenment. > > > * > > > > M: I seem to recall in the udana's something about the Buddha as a > > bodhisattva attaining metta-cetovimutti in a previous life then > > becomming a mahabrhama once, sakka several thousand times, a wheel > > turning monarch several hundreds of thousands of times and so on. > > Unfortunately I can't seem to get hold of that sutta right now, > > which i remember reading in the udana. Vimutti here might have > > different meanings, not pertaining to the buddhist idea of > > arahathship. > .... > S: I can't find the Udana either that you have in mind (maybe a Jataka or > other text), M: Not the exact one, but see below fomr the Itivuttaka: it talks of leading to rebirth in heavenly realms (following metta-cetovimutti), so the commentary can't be right in saying that it is always about nibbana: § 27. The Development of Loving-kindness {Iti 1.27; Iti 19} This was said by the Lord... "Bhikkhus, whatever grounds there are for making merit productive of a future birth, all these do not equal a sixteenth part of the mind- release of loving-kindness. The mind-release of loving-kindness surpasses them and shines forth, bright and brilliant. "Just as the radiance of all the stars does not equal a sixteenth part of the moon's radiance, but the moon's radiance surpasses them and shines forth, bright and brilliant, even so, whatever grounds there are for making merit productive of a future birth, all these do not equal a sixteenth part of the mind-release of loving- kindness... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.1.001- 027.than.html#iti-027 --------------- Metta Sutta Loving-kindness "Here, bhikkhus, a certain person abides with his heart imbued with loving-kindness extending over one quarter, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, likewise the fourth quarter, and so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself; he abides with his heart abundant, exalted, measureless in loving-kindness, without hostility or ill-will, extending over the all-encompassing world. "He finds gratification in that, finds it desirable and looks to it for his well-being; steady and resolute thereon, he abides much in it, and if he dies without losing it, he reappears among the gods of a High Divinity's retinue. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.125.nymo.html It certainly can be part of the path to nibbana, but not nibbana itself. In the following sutta, the buddha asks a monk to develop ceto-vimutti as concentration practice and then do satipatthana: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.063.than.html with metta Matheesha #62322 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 5:50 pm Subject: Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil ken_aitch Hi Howard (and Phil), -------- <. . .> H: > I repeat here a part of the foregoing material that I think is important for getting along well, especially with Dhamma friends: "He speaks such words as are gentle, soothing to the ear, loving, such words as go to the heart,and are courteous, friendly, and agreeable to many." --------- Well said, but I would like to come back to the cause of Phil's frustration, which was the use of the word "take" (see below). From time to time on DSG, someone will claim that there are "many experts on Abhidhamma, but K Sujin (along with her students) is the only one to interpret it the way she does." That person is always asked to give an example, and, in every case so far, K Sujin's interpretations have been shown to be identical with those found in the ancient commentaries. Then we are told, "But I don't accept the commentaries!" From there, someone will demonstrate that the commentaries are only explaining in detail a point that is found in the Abhidhamma. Then, of course, we hear that the Abhidhamma is "not always right." And so references are provided to where the suttas say the same thing. In some of these cases, the complainant has told us that the suttas concerned were fraudulent additions to the original texts. In other cases, they have simply said, "But that is not my take on the suttas." In other words (and please correct me if I am wrong) in every case so far, K Sujin has been exonerated and the complaint has been withdrawn. So it was not surprising that Phil breathed an audible sigh when he saw the word "take" being casually tossed back into the mix. :-) Ken H Howard to James: > Your perspective, if I understand it, and much > the same as mine, is that Dhamma practice involves all the "samma links" as > cultivational practices, which is different from Jon and Sarah's take on > "practice" as consisting of whatever arises and ceases in the moment, with the > elements of the noble 8-fold path all occuring together at the moment of path & > fruit (or something along those lines). > #62323 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] old-fashioned sexist terminology upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and Scott) - In a message dated 8/8/06 6:38:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, connieparker@... writes: > dear scott, howard, > not to worry. two-finger wits understand: "Those Great Beings Were Only > Men". > c. > ========================= Connie, I haven't a clue what you are talking about. Why was I included in this post? I'm mystified. With metta, Howard #62324 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 6:37 pm Subject: Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil kelvin_lwin Hi KenH, (Howard) > In other words (and please correct me if I am wrong) in every case so > far, K Sujin has been exonerated and the complaint has been withdrawn. Kel: I'm afraid you're making too broad a statement. There are many Tipitaka Sayadaws who have differing opinions based on the same texts. Most of them do not take the same stance as K Sujin on everything either. This is especially true when it comes to practice. I've never heard of non-meditation approach in all the traditions I'm exposed to in Burma. I only know of applying it in all life situations as a real test. - Kel #62325 From: connie Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 6:57 pm Subject: Re: old-fashioned sexist terminology nichiconn dear Howard, no mystery... i was prompted to say hi when reading that "Those Great Beings were only men" reminded me of: scott: > The PTS PED (not the be-all and end-all as Nina points out) defines > "citta" as "the centre and focus of man's emotional nature as well as > intellectual element which inheres in and accompanies its > manifestations, i.e. thought...citta denotes both the agent and that > which is enacted." Since women are left out its only half a definition. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Aside from the old-fashioned sexist terminology, I think that in the context of our discussion, this definition is terrible. Connie: also you said something recently about right livelihood and "Avoiding such wrong means of livlihood as scheming, etc," reminded me of that. peace, c. #62326 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 3:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Phil) - I don't know what your problem is, Ken. I use the word 'take' in the same way as I would use 'perspective' or 'understanding' or 'interpretation'. I don't assume that I have the facts, but only an understanding of, opinion on, perspective on, and "take" on the facts. I'm uncertain about many things, not believing that I have "the truth" on my side. I don't think anyone else here does either, though it is clear that some here think they do. I strongly believe the Buddha did, but the problem is that it is NOT certain in all cases exactly what the Buddha meant. In my opinion, and BTW that is a phrase I am careful to consistently use (to safeguard the truth), anyone who IS certain of exactly what the Buddha meant is either an arahant or an egomaniac. Do you suppose there are many arahants around? There are a number of folks on DSG with very strong opinions that I don't share. I feel free to disagree with them, while at the same time recognizing their complete right to hold whatever position makes sense to them. Should there come the time that I am made to feel that it is no longer tolerated on DSG for me to assert my understanding of the Dhamma or to state my disagreement with the understanding of others here, that is the time that I will leave this list. Inasmuch as I haven't gotten the slightest suggestion along those lines from Jon and Sarah and Nina, and I have no expectation of getting such a suggeston from them, because they are good, fair people with good values, it is unlikely that I will be unsubscribing any time soon. So, I'm afraid that you will, a while longer, just have to put up with my words that you seem to concur are "tiresome". Two more things, Ken: You mention a lot of things below that you just plain don't like - opinions that you seem to think you have the right to be shielded from, opinions you would like to see not expressed. It seems to me that you feel you have the right to be a censor. Well, first of all, you do not have the right. Secondly, a number of the disliked positions mentioned by you below are not stated positions of mine. But if they were stated positions of mine, so what? I don't believe anyone on DSG has beem appointed to be a Buddhist Torquemada. With metta, Howard In a message dated 8/8/06 8:51:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Phil), > > -------- > <. . .> > H: >I repeat here a part of the foregoing material that I think is > important for getting along well, especially with Dhamma friends: "He > speaks such words as are gentle, soothing to the ear, loving, such > words as go to the heart,and are courteous, friendly, and agreeable to > many." > --------- > > Well said, but I would like to come back to the cause of Phil's > frustration, which was the use of the word "take" (see below). From > time to time on DSG, someone will claim that there are "many experts > on Abhidhamma, but K Sujin (along with her students) is the only one > to interpret it the way she does." > > That person is always asked to give an example, and, in every case so > far, K Sujin's interpretations have been shown to be identical with > those found in the ancient commentaries. Then we are told, "But I > don't accept the commentaries!" > > From there, someone will demonstrate that the commentaries are only > explaining in detail a point that is found in the Abhidhamma. Then, > of course, we hear that the Abhidhamma is "not always right." > > And so references are provided to where the suttas say the same thing. > In some of these cases, the complainant has told us that the suttas > concerned were fraudulent additions to the original texts. In other > cases, they have simply said, "But that is not my take on the suttas." > > In other words (and please correct me if I am wrong) in every case so > far, K Sujin has been exonerated and the complaint has been withdrawn. > > So it was not surprising that Phil breathed an audible sigh when he > saw the word "take" being casually tossed back into the mix. :-) > > Ken H > #62327 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: old-fashioned sexist terminology upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 8/8/06 9:59:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, connieparker@... writes: > > dear Howard, > no mystery... i was prompted to say hi when reading that "Those Great > Beings were only men" reminded me of: > > scott: > >The PTS PED (not the be-all and end-all as Nina points out) defines > >"citta" as "the centre and focus of man's emotional nature as well as > >intellectual element which inheres in and accompanies its > >manifestations, i.e. thought...citta denotes both the agent and that > >which is enacted." Since women are left out its only half a definition. > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Aside from the old-fashioned sexist terminology, I think that in > the > context of our discussion, this definition is terrible. > > Connie: also you said something recently about right livelihood and > "Avoiding such wrong means of livlihood as scheming, etc," reminded me of > that. > > peace, > c. ========================== Ahh, thank you! I just didn't make the connection. :-) Always good to get a "hi" from you in any case! :-) With metta, Howard #62328 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 8:31 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,94 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 94. (19) Immaterial states that assist by the kind of association consisting in having the same physical basis, same object, same arising, same cessation, are 'association conditions', according as it is said: 'The four immaterial aggregates are a condition, as association condition, for each other' (P.tn.1,6). ********************** 94. ekavatthuka-ekaaramma.na- ekuppaadekanirodhasa"nkhaatena sampayuttabhaavena upakaarakaa aruupadhammaa sampayuttapaccayo. yathaaha -- ``cattaaro khandhaa aruupino a~n~nama~n~na.m sampayuttapaccayena paccayo''ti (pa.t.thaa0 1.1.19). #62329 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 8:40 pm Subject: Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil ken_aitch Hi Kel, -------------- KH: > > In other words (and please correct me if I am wrong) in every case so far, K Sujin has been exonerated and the complaint has been withdrawn. > > Kel: > I'm afraid you're making too broad a statement. There are many Tipitaka Sayadaws who have differing opinions based on the same texts. --------------- Oh, I see. I was thinking that the differences always came down (in the final analysis) to the question, 'Which texts are to be accepted and which are to be rejected?' But, you tell me there are experts who totally accept the Theravada texts without agreeing with one another. I am sure you are right, but that is not exactly what I was talking about. ----------------------- Kel: > Most of them do not take the same stance as K Sujin on everything either. ----------------------- Isn't it true that most of them base their teachings on what they assume must be in the texts? K Sujin has revealed some startling facts simply by pointing to the [long forgotten] ancient commentaries in which many common assumptions are expressly denied. ----------------------------------- Kel: > This is especially true when it comes to practice. I've never heard of non-meditation approach in all the traditions I'm exposed to in Burma. ----------------------------------- That's exactly my point. Where in the texts is there any mention of a formal vipassana practice? People assume it must be there. Those who realise it is not there [like our friend Htoo, for example] assume its absence must be due to an oversight - by Ven. Ananda at the First Council. Admittedly, there are the well-quoted lines in the Satipatthana sutta ("knows he is walking" etc), but any interpretation of them as a formal practice has been expressly ruled out by the commentaries. (And, I would add, it has been ruled out by the Tipitaka as a whole.) ------------ Kel: > I only know of applying it in all life situations as a real test. ------------ Sorry, I probably know what you mean by that but I'm not sure. Do you mean that when you are walking, for example, you concentrate on walking? Ken H #62330 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 10:59 pm Subject: Re: Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah matheesha333 Let's try an alternate reading... > > Hi Phil, > > >which is different from Howard's take on > > "practice" > > How long have you been discussing with Howard, and how > long have you read his patiently explained *text based* points? And > yet it has been reduced to his *take* on it. > > Really tiresome. > > If someone cannot critically and fairly review both sides of the story, it is immature thinking. To want THAT degree of certainty that nothing else is tolerated is also immature thinking. Being secure in ambivalence is both growth in maturity and dhamma...and is just how life needs to be taken. with metta Matheesha #62331 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 11:07 pm Subject: Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil kelvin_lwin Hi KenH, > But, you tell me there are experts who > totally accept the Theravada texts without agreeing with one another. > I am sure you are right, but that is not exactly what I was talking > about. Kel: If I'm right then your original statement is wrong. Because you says the only reason people disagree with KS is because they don't accept the same texts. > Isn't it true that most of them base their teachings on what they > assume must be in the texts? K Sujin has revealed some startling facts > simply by pointing to the [long forgotten] ancient commentaries in > which many common assumptions are expressly denied. Kel: Laugh, are you serious? I guess Ledi Sayadaw must've forgotten some ancient commentaries. > That's exactly my point. Where in the texts is there any mention of a > formal vipassana practice? People assume it must be there. Those who > realise it is not there [like our friend Htoo, for example] assume its > absence must be due to an oversight - by Ven. Ananda at the First Council. Kel: Well maybe because it makes sense to consider that practice is already covered in first two sections of Visuddhimagga and third is merely a description of knowledge levels since any dhamma can be used. Formal practice is definitely endorsed by this commentary is it not? (you'll say yes but only for samatha) Here's a sample from Part 3 Understanding: Vsm XX, 21 [nine ways of sharpening the faculites, etc.] While thus engaged in inductive insight, however, if it does not succeed, he should sharpen his faculties [ of faith, etc.,] in the nine ways stated thus: 'The faculties become sharp in nine ways: (1) he sees only the destruction of arisen formations; (2) and in that [occupation] he makes sure of working carefully, (3) he makes sure of working perserveringly, (4) he makes sure of working suitably, and (5) by apprehending the sign of concentration and (6) by balancing the enlightenment factors (7) he establishes disregard of body and life, (8) wherein he overcomes [pain] by reunication and (9) by not stopping halfway. He should avoid the seven unsuitable things in the way stated in the Description of the Earth Kasina and cultivate the seven suitable things, and he should comprehend the material at one time and the immaterial at another. Seems kinda clear to me, unless you just don't want to read it in an obvious way. > Admittedly, there are the well-quoted lines in the Satipatthana sutta > ("knows he is walking" etc), but any interpretation of them as a > formal practice has been expressly ruled out by the commentaries. > (And, I would add, it has been ruled out by the Tipitaka as a whole.) Kel: err what commentaries that rule it out? Maybe by some particular way of reading it but definitely not common one in Burma. > Sorry, I probably know what you mean by that but I'm not sure. Do you > mean that when you are walking, for example, you concentrate on walking? Kel: er no, I mean any situation can be used for enlightenment. But nobody is suggesting you go find a lion to bite your head since one Thera was liberated it that way. You can practice kayagata-sati or cittanupassana while walking. It doesn't matter as whatever object can be used. - Kel #62332 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 10:47 pm Subject: Nikini Poya day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Nikini Poya day is the full-moon of August. On such Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees and head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms in front of the heart, one recite these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accepts to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards Nibbana: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality, developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation... Today indeed is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here. A public list of this new Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Disciples: The Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... Details on Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. <....> #62333 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 12:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil ken_aitch Hi Howard, ---------- H: > I don't know what your problem is, Ken. I use the word 'take' in the same way as I would use 'perspective' or 'understanding' or 'interpretation'. I don't assume that I have the facts, but only an understanding of, opinion on, perspective on, and "take" on the facts. ----------- I wouldn't say I have a problem. I was just offering an explanation for why some of us get a bit irritable at times. ------------------ H: > I'm uncertain about many things, not believing that I have "the truth" on my side. I don't think anyone else here does either, though it is clear that some here think they do. ------------------- You see? We all make the occasionally derogatory remark for one reason or another. Well, not all of us, but you and I and Phil and quite a few others do. ------------- H: > I don't believe anyone on DSG has been appointed to be a Buddhist Torquemada. -------------- No, unless you count self-appointed, and then there'd be one or two of us. :-) Ken H #62334 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Tue Aug 8, 2006 11:52 pm Subject: Re: Difficult to advance without real meditation... bhikkhu_ekamuni > PS: Sarah do you train sitting meditation? >Sarah: A simple answer is 'no'. There is 3 levels of knowing: 1: Intellectual knowing (only read in a book or on PC, pariyatti) 2: Knowing by praxis and training (doing and living it, patipatti) 3: Knowing it after having penetrated it (realization, pativedha) It is VERY difficult - read close to impossible - to make progress beyond the initial level 1 without moral purification & meditation! No sila => no samadhi! No samadhi => no panna! PS: At Buddha's time there was a lay man very well versed in the suttas. He could recite them by heart. Many feared his erudition. However every time the Buddha saw this man, he addressed him: 'Ahh there you are Mr. Empty-Knowledge!' Later, when humbled, this same man had difficulties in finding a teacher, since no monk knowing his extreme & stubborn pride, found it possible to learn him something, that he mistakenly thought he already knew, even much better ... However an Arahat Samanera accepted him on the condition that he would do exactly as he said. To test him, he then made him walk, dressed in white, out into a knee-deep mud-pool... Which he did! There, standing in mud, he realized his prior folly! Friendship is the Greatest... Bhikkhu Samahita http://What-Buddha-Said.net <...> #62335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nikini Poya day ... !!! nilovg Venerable Bhikkhu Samahita, Thank you for reminding me of Poya day. It conditions kusala cittas when I am reminded by you. With respect, Nina. Op 9-aug-2006, om 7:47 heeft Bhikkhu Samahita het volgende geschreven: > > Nikini Poya day is the full-moon of August. #62336 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nikini Poya day ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Reg: >Thank you for reminding me of Poya day. It conditions kusala cittas >when I am reminded by you. With respect, Nina. Dear Friend Nina: Thanx for the thanx! It induces advantageous mental states to participate in mutual appreciation of the Good! Yes indeed! That is why Friendship Really is the Greatest... vandana Friendship is the Greatest... Bhikkhu Samahita <...> #62337 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 1:46 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 511- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (tranquillity/calm) Tranquillity of cetasikas and of citta accompany each kusala citta and thus, they arise also when insight is being developed. When there is right understanding of a nåma or a rúpa which appears there is calm at that moment. When, for example, visible object is known as only a rúpa appearing through the eyesense, not a person, there is calm. At that moment there cannot be disturbance caused by desire nor can there be annoyance. Even when someone treats us badly there can be right understanding of the objects appearing through the six doors, and then we are not perturbed nor afraid. ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #62338 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Difficult to advance without real meditation... sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita & all, --- Bhikkhu samahita wrote: > > PS: Sarah do you train sitting meditation? > >Sarah: A simple answer is 'no'. > > There is 3 levels of knowing: > 1: Intellectual knowing (only read in a book or on PC, pariyatti) > 2: Knowing by praxis and training (doing and living it, patipatti) > 3: Knowing it after having penetrated it (realization, pativedha) > > It is VERY difficult - read close to impossible - to make progress > beyond the initial level 1 without moral purification & meditation! .... S: With respect, where does it say in the texts that sila, patipatti or bhavana entail someone to 'train sitting meditation'? Can 'someone' do anything, for that matter? Did the Buddha tell anyone that to develop sila and to 'know by praxis and training' that such development should be other than 'at the present moment regardless of the activity..' as I suggested? I indicated that the references to calm leading to enlightenment were to mental states, not to a particular training of 'sitting meditation'. I'll be glad to look at any other references in this context. Also, I might add, I don't see pariyatti in terms of 'only read in a book or on PC'. Do you? In fact, I'd say there may or may not be any pariyatti arising at such times. .... > > No sila => no samadhi! > No samadhi => no panna! .... S: Well, this is another discussion, which I'll leave for now. In fact, I'd like to say to everyone that we're going away in 3 days' time for a month, so I'll just be trying to finish up loose ends rather than getting into new threads for now (which may or may not work out as planned, of course:-)). Jon will be taking his computer, so he's more likely to keep up with his posting. .... > > PS: At Buddha's time there was a lay man very well versed in the > suttas. He could recite them by heart. Many feared his erudition. > However every time the Buddha saw this man, he addressed him: > 'Ahh there you are Mr. Empty-Knowledge!' Later, when humbled, > this same man had difficulties in finding a teacher, since no monk > knowing his extreme & stubborn pride, found it possible to learn > him something, that he mistakenly thought he already knew, even > much better ... However an Arahat Samanera accepted him on the > condition that he would do exactly as he said. To test him, he then > made him walk, dressed in white, out into a knee-deep mud-pool... > Which he did! There, standing in mud, he realized his prior folly! .... S:-) Which just goes to show my point that even pariyatti, let alone patipatti is not a matter of reciting texts by heart at all. If there's no understanding of dhammas appearing at this moment, it's useless. Thank you for your kind response. I'll look forward to reading any further comments or texts you may add and responding at a later time, when I have a chance. If you have a chance, you may also wish to look at the following topics in 'useful posts' in the files: 'Sila, samadhi, panna' 'Bhavana' 'Meditation in the texts' 'Satipatthana -Now' 'Samatha & Vipassana bhavana' Metta, Sarah ======== #62339 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lunch meeting with Jon and Sarah sarahprocter... Hi James, So glad you made all the tight connections... --- buddhatrue wrote: > This was good, as there was a lot to discuss, > but I wanted to discuss some about the role of anatta in Buddhist > practice- but we didn't get to that. Maybe I will have to take > another trip to Hong Kong. ;-)) .... S: We'll look forward to it;-) ... > Ps. I forgot to add one thing: Sarah is really, really in shape!! > When we went running for a taxi to take me back to the airport, I > could hardly keep up with her! Don't let that grey hair fool you! ;- > )) .... S: ;-)) Well, you were carrying a heavy bag with a computer. I must say, I don't often run for taxis, but your tight schedule did get me moving! It really sounded like you're in a nice place and I think the internet connection with friends that appreciate your keen interest in the Buddha's teachings is important, however zen-like the lifestyle and even if it means taking a peep at mail during the night once in a while:-). Metta, Sarah ========== #62340 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fortune-Cookie Dhamma/ Very Brief Post sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > Sophie:-) > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, thanks! :-) It was wonderful. And sophie is *amazing*! She > has > become beautiful, brilliantly attentive, and has the sweetest, most > gorgeous > (and very frequent) loving smile! I'm delighted by her and besotted with > her!! > ---------------------------------------- S: Besotted! Really! Would we have ever guessed? :-)) .... > > S: that's funny.....so do we want to keep getting the same round and > > round? > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nope - sure don't! :-) > --------------------------------------------- .... S: Except when we're besotted, perhaps :-) .... > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > From your end and from James', your get-together sounds like it > was > wonderful!! > ======================= ..... S: Yes, we'll look forward to another occasion and maybe have some topics ready for discussion too. I hope he'll also continue with discussions and sutta quotes here when he's rested and settled down. Metta, Sarah ========= #62341 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: commentaries sarahprocter... Hi Joop & all, --- Joop wrote: (quoting B.Bodhi): > To be brief, I would say there are two extreme attitudes one could > take to the commentaries. One, often adopted by orthodox Theravadins, > is to regard them as being absolutely authoritative almost on a par > with the suttas. The other is to disregard them completely and claim > they represent "a different take on the Dhamma." I find that a > prudent middle ground is to consult the commentaries and use them, > but without clinging to them. Their interpretations are often > illuminating, but we should also recognize that they represent a > specific systematization of the early teaching. THEY ARE BY NO MEANS > NECESSITATED BY THE EARLY TEACHING, AND ON SOME POINTS EVEN SEEM TO > BE IN TENSION WITH IT." .... S: the discussion I had with Ven Samahita and others on the topic of calm of body would be a good example of one where B.Bodhi doesn't fully accept the commentary explanation which also accords with what we read in other texts. It may seem like a 'prudent middle ground' to half-accept, half-reject it, but perhaps the so-called 'tension' with the early teaching is merely indicative of our limited understanding and wrong ideas of what 'bhavana' and 'enlightenment factors' are in this example. I'm sure you'll give a spirited reply, but apologies in advance for any delayed responses. Perhaps after stirring up some waves, I can leave others to ride them:-) Metta, Sarah ======== #62342 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Knowledge of the Difference Between Naama and Ruupa: Making The... sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Jon, Ven Samahita and all, I thought you (Scott) and Jon made some good comments on the topic of the meaning of study and pariyatti. I was reminded of it as I just replied to Ven Samahita: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > J: "If one studies the teachings in the belief that that is going to > give rise to moments of direct knowledge, or that more studying means > more insight, or the like, then this is the kind of thing I have in > mind when I refer to 'doing a particular kind of activity'." > > That makes it clear. This is almost aphoristic, isn't it? As you > say, the wrong view associated with the act of study for a particular > reason, that is for the purpose of somehow wilfully causing insight to > arise, will simply condition the non-arising of insight, if one can > phrase it that way. > > "On the other hand, one could study the teachings out of an interest > in the teachings and with a recognition of the importance of coming to > a better understanding of them, but with no expectation of immediate > or direct result (based on one's understanding of the way things > work). Sure, the act of studying will involve some 'intentional > action'. Intention is present in every moment of consciousness." > > This too, I imagine, would have to have a natural quality, a sort of > insouciance associated with it, a more or less pure non-desire for > simple better understanding and that's it. One cannot fool the > dhammas into arising by pretending not to be studying to hasten the > arising of any particular dhamma. The trouble is, one can fool one's > self quite easily. > > "What distinguishes the two situations is the mental state.... .... S: Yes, it always comes down to the mental state..... Metta, Sarah p.s More (of course!) in U.P. under 'pariyatti' and 'study'. ======================= #62343 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 3:07 am Subject: pathfactors nilovg Hi Howard, ------- Howard: And I consider them both valid for their respective purposes, with the ultimate view being, of course, ... ultimate, and the conventional view being valid only when properly understood as merely a very useful mental shorthand. I do think that the conventional perspective is necessary for thinking, for understanding of vast complexity, and for communication for worldlings if not also "lower" ariyans. I doubt, however, that the conventional perspective was at all necessary for a Buddha's understanding. But even for him it was needed for purposes of communication to those beings lacking his wisdom. --------- N: You expressed this very well, in a balanced way. I would like to add something, but I go first into your other post on this subject. What is in my mind: let us do some teamwork. ---------- H: my reading of the suttas is that the noble 8-fold path is quite conventional. Right livelihood, for example, is the holding of an occupation that is moral, and not immoral -.... ------- N: Yes, I remember good examples given by Jon, in one’ s work. I could add: not using the company’s car, phone, computer time for personal matters. ------------ H: This is a habitual matter, and not just a momentary one. Right speech amounts to speaking harmlessly. ...Right action is defined as follows: "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life... What is involved here is an ongoing pattern of behavior, and not just moments of abstention. With regard to the last two, you and others will say that they occur at the moment that the impulse to abstain occurs in the face of a temptation to indulge. I agree with that, but I don't think that is the whole story. ------ N: No. it is not the whole story. You speak about a pattern of behaviour, and indeed, when there are many moments of siila, these are accumulated and thus we can speak of habitual siila, a wholesome habitual conduct. This does not mean that akusala siila is eradicated. Only pa~n~naa of the eightfold Path when it has been developed can eradicate akusala siila. Moreover, there are many aspects to siila. Siila is not only abstention, but also performance (caaritta siila), as you also emphasized. The Buddha taught anattaa and that differentiates his teaching from all other teachings. He taught the development of vipassanaa in daily life, when we are leading our ordinary life and are associating with others. He taught us to know our own cittas so that we understand when there is true mettaa and compassion and when we are selfseeking. There is a close connection between right understanding of the present moment and our life in conventional sense. We can learn and we have to learn: when we are of gentle speech is there kusala or akusala? Are there selfseeking motives, is there some conceit? If we do not know this, it will be self, self, self that observes siila. --------- H: Everything that is conventional but also real reduces to momentary activities, but it is a mistake to ignore the matter of an ongoing pattern - a habitual pattern of behavior. That, in fact, was primarily what the Buddha was addressing in the suttas, IMO. --------- N: Now to return to the factors of the NEP: they are sobhana cetasikas, all of them. You mentioned above momentary activities , but do not ignore a pattern of behaviour. Quite right, but how is it with that ongoing pattern? Is there some clinging to it? Do we take it for mine? If we do not find out we are lost, entirely lost. I think that the Buddha’s message in all suttas is the flavour of anattaa, as Rob K expresses it. It means: right view (or right understanding) is indispensable for the development of the eightfold Path. If that is lacking the Path is not developed. The fact that the cetasikas that are the abstentions from akusala siila arise only when there is an opportunity for them does not mean that kusala siila is not being developed together with right understanding. There are also all the other sobhana cetasikas that are great supports. Think of confidence: confidence in an object worthy of confidence, namely the Triple Gem. Detachment, necessary for all kinds of kusala. Non- aversion, adosa, which arises also in the form of patience. When we are generously giving or speaking with kusala citta, there can be moments of awareness of nama and rupa. It is not so that concentration on what we are going to say prevents a moment of mindfulness of nama or rupa. There are countless cittas arising and falling away, and in between we can learn to be aware of nama and rupa. One moment we are in the conventional world, and one moment in the world according to the ariyan discipline. They can and should be combined. They alternate as I said before. Is there not motion or pressure, or hardness when moving the hands to give something away, or helping others, or moving the jaws when speaking? These are ruupas conditioned by path-condition. The dhamma appearing at the present moment is quite near. We do not have to think of the path-factors, when we have understood what they are, they can be developed together quite naturally. This brings me again to the perfections which are supporting conditions for each other and lead to the eradication of defilements. It is important not to have expectations, not even expectations of more understanding, because the self can be involved all the time. I took up Kh. Sujin’s book on the Perfections of the Bodhisatta, on siila: < We may consider the perfections that we begin to develop. We wish to listen to the Dhamma and to learn about the practice in accordance with the Dhamma. We need the perfection of energy, viriya, in order to be able to listen. If there is no energy or right effort, we do not come to listen to the Dhamma, but we rather listen to another subject that gives us pleasure and entertainment. When we listen to the Dhamma we also need the perfection of patience, khanti, because sometimes we have to listen to what does not interest us so much. Without patience we cannot develop the other perfections such as the perfection of morality, síla. Without the perfection of síla we shall transgress morality by our deeds and speech. ... If one develops kusala without expecting any result for oneself, there will be a result in conformity with the kusala one performed. Someone may speak well, expressing himself with beautiful words, but when he speaks he should think of the wellbeing of the listener, he should know whether the listener will be ill at ease or happy. If there is sati sampajañña (sati and paññå) he will refrain from speech that causes the listener to be uncomfortable, even though he does not speak an untruth. If sati sampajañña arises it will cause one to speak in a beneficial, agreeable way. If someone does not expect any result for himself, his kusala will bring its result, as the Buddha explained... Síla of performance, cåritta síla, is very subtle and refined, and we should consider it at the present moment with sati sampajañña. For example, when a dear friend does something wrong, one may be off guard and blame him immediately in front of others. But when sati sampajañña arises, one will wait for the proper opportunity and speak to him later on. This shows that defilements have to be worn off time and again, until they eventually will be completely eradicated. > ***** Nina. #62344 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 3:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 84 and Tiika. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, Another very belated comment on a Vism thread. As usual, there was a lot of excellent detail in this one. I'd just like to elaborate on one point which often comes up in discussions: --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 84 > > Natural Decisive Support-Condition (Pakatuupanissaya-Paccaya) > > Intro: > As we have seen, there are three kinds of decisive support-condition: > decisive support of object, aaramma.nuupanissaya-paccaya, decisive > support > of proximity, anantaruupanissaya-paccaya, and natural decisive > support-condition, pakatuupanissaya-paccaya. > > Natural decisive support-condition, pakatuupanissaya-paccaya, is very > wide. > Kusala or akusala performed in the past that have been accumulated are > cogent reasons for the arising of kusala citta and akusala citta at the > present time. > As we shall see kusala can condition akusala and akusala can condition > kusala by way of natural decisive support-condition. > Also concepts as climate, food, dwelling place and persons one > associates > with can be cogent reasons for the arising of kusala citta or akusala > citta. .... S: I think there could be a misunderstanding that such concepts actually exist. Rather, they are being used as a kind of short-hand to represent many different dhammas (realities). We have to use concepts of course to understand such realities and such relations of conditions, but we shouldn't be fooled by them. For example, when we talk about the climate, really it's heat or cold being experienced, for example. When we talk about the 'persons one associates', really it's the hearing of useful things through the ear-door and following mind-door processes. It depends on whether they are right or wrong, the tone, how we reflect and so on. It needs a lot of detail in paramattha terms, but instead we just refer to the good friend, for example. I think it's the same when we talk about sappaya sampajanna and so on - we refer to favourable country, dwelling, friends etc, but really these are short-hand terms for various dhammas conditioning right understanding at this moment. As I heard on tape, whenever there's a moment of satipatthana, it's sappaya (suitable object). I think it's a little like when we refer to the results of kamma in conventional terms - like being healthy, wealthy, experiencing worldly conditions and so on. Really, as we know, these are conventional terms to convey a multitude of dhammas and in fact, vipaka comes down to moments of seeing visible objects, hearing sounds and other realities. Of course, we have to use the short-hand and conventional expressions to communicate. It just depends on our understanding when we read, hear or use them as to whether they are just used for convenience or not. Metta, Sarah p.s I also just read the wealth of helpful detail in the extracts on jhana and path conditions. ======== #62345 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the latest distortion sarahprocter... Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > hey Sarah, > > S: So there he is - one minute an arahant and the next not even a > 'virtuous puthujjana'. And the rest is history, as they say. Bahiya took > > off at unbelievable speed to seek out the Buddha. > > c: The Commentary (p127) says he was: < been > given a shock thinking "Accursed, truly, is this putthujjana-status, as > a > result of which I, though being no arahant, conceived myself to be an > arahant and did not know that a Perfectly Self-Enlightened One had > arisen > in the world and was teaching Dhamma <...> > Sugata on account of his having spoken properly (sammaa gadattaa).>> > > ...not at all like someone who would have you "collapsed in exhaustion"; > I > apologize for my tiredness and hope to at least become more conversant > with the texts so I can speak more properly. .... S: Nothing to apologise for! You speak very properly and we enjoy the challenges involved in the deciphering this end....a bit like when we used to do crossword puzzles - we'd seldom get all the clues and that's the fun (and exhaustion) of it:-). Now Scott, on that walrus with John & Paul, wasn't there a bit at then end which had to be played backwards to make sense...?;/! Thx for all your good quotes, Connie....helping to fill up the Bahiya line at the same time:-) Metta, Sarah ======== #62346 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 3:40 am Subject: Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil ken_aitch Hi Kel, ------------ <. . .> Kel: > If I'm right then your original statement is wrong. Because you says the only reason people disagree with KS is because they don't accept the same texts. ------------ What I said was; that is the way it has been so far at DSG. People have begun by saying that KS was in a minority of one among Abhidhamma experts. But whenever they have given a specific example, KS's perspective has been shown to be entirely consistent with the ancient texts. That is when historical and other arguments against the validity of some of those texts have been resorted to. ------- KH: > > That's exactly my point. Where in the texts is there any mention of a formal vipassana practice? People assume it must be there. Those who realise it is not there [like our friend Htoo, for example] assume its absence must be due to an oversight - by Ven. Ananda at the First Council. > > Kel: > Well maybe because it makes sense to consider that practice is already covered in first two sections of Visuddhimagga and third is merely a description of knowledge levels since any dhamma can be used. -------- I'm not sure I follow you, but moving on: ----------- Kel: > Formal practice is definitely endorsed by this commentary is it not? (you'll say yes but only for samatha) ------------- No, I will not agree that there is a formal practice for samatha. Samatha is the calm that accompanies kusala consciousness. No one can decree, "Let my consciousness be kusala!" Nor will any bodily posture make kusala consciousness arise. As I understand jhana absorption (the repeated concentration of kusala consciousness on a single meditation object) its development requires freedom from distractions, and that is when a quiet place and a steady posture become important. ---------------- Kel: > Here's a sample from Part 3 Understanding: Vsm XX, 21 [nine ways of sharpening the faculites, etc.] While thus engaged in inductive insight, however, if it does not succeed, he should sharpen his faculties [of faith, etc.,] in the nine ways stated thus: 'The faculties become sharp in nine ways: (1) he sees only the destruction of arisen formations; (2) and in that [occupation] he makes sure of working carefully, (3) he makes sure of working perserveringly, (4) he makes sure of working suitably, and (5) by apprehending the sign of concentration and (6) by balancing the enlightenment factors (7) he establishes disregard of body and life, (8) wherein he overcomes [pain] by reunication and (9) by not stopping halfway. He should avoid the seven unsuitable things in the way stated in the Description of the Earth Kasina and cultivate the seven suitable things, and he should comprehend the material at one time and the immaterial at another. Seems kinda clear to me, unless you just don't want to read it in an obvious way. ---------------- Heaven help me if I ever think the Dhamma is obvious in any way. No, that is a description of certain kusala paramattha dhammas - fleeting phenomena known only to the wise. They arise by conditions, not by anyone's control. ------------- <. . .> Kel: err what commentaries that rule it out? Maybe by some particular way of reading it but definitely not common one in Burma. -------------- I was thinking of where the commentaries explain that the mode of "going" known to the monk when he is walking is not the conventional mode that is known to uninstructed worldlings and even to "dogs and jackals." (Please read post No. 52642 by Nina) Contrary to that, I think you will find that there are millions of Buddhists who stoically concentrate on their feet, "Lifting, lifting, moving, moving, placing, placing" and so on. They are relying on a mistaken reading of the Satipatthana Sutta (and of the Visuddhimagga, which also mentions walking). Ken H #62347 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 3:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters from Nina 26 sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Does the Buddha have a message for us who are only beginners on his > Path? > > The Buddha has a message for all those who are afflicted by grief and > are disturbed by the thought of death. He teaches us to develop clear > comprehension of the present moment. .... S: Yes, this is exactly what we are reminded of all the time. Also, the comments in letter 27 about how 'it is actually a selfish clinging to our own pleasant feeling which conditions grief.' As you say, 'this may sound crude, but if we are sincere to ourselves we can see that it is true'. (Btw, I've forgotten when was this series of letters written. Were they based on a trip or any talks? It's good to read them again.) The same message we hear again and again, but of course we don't always like hearing it, understandably. Btw, please apologise to Lodewijk if anything I said caused any distress (unintentionally of course!). I looked again at my message to you (#62135) and still couldn't see anything in it which might have caused a reaction - it was kindly intended, pls assure him. I think it's the same for us all - anything can trigger distress as Howard just found out or as Andrew T found out when he gave his kind apology! 'Our' accumulations are so complicated! Actually, it was a bit of a cold shower for me to read I'd upset Lodewijk in anyway as it's the last thing I'd wish!! We all just do our best, that's all. Also, I don't think I've ever quoted K.Sujin out of context, but if you'd like to give me an example anytime, I'd be happy to elaborate and add more detail/background. Metta, Sarah ======== #62348 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 4:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. sarahprocter... Hi Larry & Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > it is Vis. XXII, 117. There are different contexts where sign is used. > Nina. > Op 27-jul-2006, om 1:22 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > > > n the Buddhist Dictionary under "vipassana" the signless seems to be > > nibbana, but in Vism.XXII,114 it says: > > > > " 'Contemplation of the signless' is the same as contemplation of > > impermanence. Through its means the sign of permanence is abandoned." .... S: Nibbana is the signless dhamma. Doesn't the 'contemplation of the signless' refer to the understanding of the impermanence of all conditioned dhammas which leads to the realization of the 'signless' nature of nibbana? I meant to do some checking in texts on this, but no time. Perhaps Ken O, Connie or others have more to add as well. Metta, Sarah p.s Larry, how are your existentialist Theravada reflections going:-) It'll probably be you that encourages Herman back at some stage. ============== #62349 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 4:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How Faith, Truth and Wisdom are Related sarahprocter... Hi Daniel, --- Daniel wrote: > Well, these are my thoughts. I would be glad to hear responses > since I > feel that there are additional differences between thinking a sentence > after > you came to a conclusion yourself, and because another person said so, > which I > have not identified yet. .... S: In the end, any understanding has to be one's own, not another's. We cannot have the Buddha's understanding, but by reading, listening and considering, we can understand the path he taught and directly know the truths for ourselves. But he could never make anyone understand. The best thing is to keep considering and questioning and proving to yourself what is right and wrong. Please keep asking your good questions to us all. I hope you saw my comments on exercise along with others. Mine were in a post addressed to Ven Samahita and yourself. Metta and best wishes, Daniel. Sarah ========= #62350 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/9/06 3:18:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ---------- > H: >I don't know what your problem is, Ken. I use the word 'take' in > the same way as I would use 'perspective' or 'understanding' or > 'interpretation'. > I don't assume that I have the facts, but only an > understanding of, opinion on, perspective on, and "take" on the facts. > ----------- > > I wouldn't say I have a problem. I was just offering an explanation > for why some of us get a bit irritable at times. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, unfortunately I know the feeling well. ;-) I do apologize for expressing my irritation to you. (It seems I react to you as an easy trigger.) --------------------------------------- > > ------------------ > H: >I'm uncertain about many things, not believing that I have "the > truth" on my side. I don't think anyone else here does either, though > it is clear that some here think they do. > ------------------- > > You see? We all make the occasionally derogatory remark for one reason > or another. Well, not all of us, but you and I and Phil and quite a > few others do. > > ------------- > > H: >I don't believe anyone on DSG has been appointed to be a Buddhist > Torquemada. > -------------- > > No, unless you count self-appointed, and then there'd be one or two of > us. :-) ----------------------------------------- Howard: I do not try to censor anyone. I don't *choose* to censor anyone. I am not so devoted, so fixedly attached, to a particular interpreter or interpretation of the Dhamma that I'm motivated to prevent others from freely expressing their alternative understandings. And it is more than a matter of mere "tolerance" of other views. I have, in fact, benefited greatly from others on DSG, getting most especially a keen appreciation for the Abhidhammic framework, secondarily an appreciation of how the commentaries provide a useful source of clarification for suttas that, often due to translation problems, seem obscure, and, interestingly, I think, also an appreciation of the "wu wei" element within Theravada made especially clear by RobK while he was a member, and also put forward well by Jon. As much as I express disagreement with certain ideas, I *do* give them considerable thought, and I do ferret out what I deem to be a germ of truth even in ideas that I think are somewhat faulty. But, as I have said, I feel perfectly free to express my take on the Buddha's teachings gleaned from Dhamma study and practice and to explain in what ways I think others are mistaken. That is proper for a discussion list, and it doesn't call for a response that makes me feel like an outsider, even a pariah, whose barely tolerated opinions are "tiresome", and with that free-speech-chilling response triggered by my innocent use of the synonym 'take' for 'understanding', blaming me for an association that is in someone else's head. It is useful, actually important, for me to observe that irritation and anger are alive and well in my psyche, but it is unfortunate when such observation becomes one of the major benefits I obtain from a discussion group. --------------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ======================= With metta, Howard #62351 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] pathfactors upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/9/06 6:07:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > ------- > > Howard: > And I consider them both valid for their respective purposes, > with the ultimate view being, of course, ... ultimate, and the > conventional > view being valid only when properly understood as merely a very > useful mental shorthand. I do think that the conventional perspective > is necessary for > thinking, for understanding of vast complexity, and for communication > for worldlings > if not also "lower" ariyans. I doubt, however, that the conventional > perspective was at all necessary for a Buddha's understanding. But > even for him it was > needed for purposes of communication to those beings lacking his wisdom. > > --------- > > N: You expressed this very well, in a balanced way. I would like to > add something, but I go first into your other post on this subject. > What is in my mind: let us do some teamwork. > > =========================== Nina,i thank you for your lengthy yet very well expressed post! I appreciate what you said in it, and I am completely comfortable with all that you said! With much metta, Howard #62352 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters from Nina 26 nilovg Dear Sarah. Lodewijk said, no need to apologize for anything whatsoever. He immensely appreciates all your kindness and your efforts to explain the Dhamma. But he finds that he still has problems with ultimate and conventional. We shall discuss more coming weekend when we are away for four days. A good opportunity. There are two methods of teaching: the Abhidhamma method and the Suttanta method as we discussed before. This may clarify things. We wish you a lovely trip and have a good rest. Nina and Lodewijk. Op 9-aug-2006, om 12:53 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Btw, I've forgotten when was this series of letters written. Were they > based on a trip or any talks? It's good to read them again.) > > The same message we hear again and again, but of course we don't > always > like hearing it, understandably. > > Btw, please apologise to Lodewijk if anything I said caused any > distress > (unintentionally of course!). I looked again at my message to you > (#62135) > and still couldn't see anything in it which might have caused a > reaction - > it was kindly intended, pls assure him. #62353 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 10:32 am Subject: Rob K on listening, 4. nilovg Dear friends, I quote again from Rob K's forum, from an old letter he wrote before: Rob K: Perhaps we think we already know the characteristic of feeling. After all feeling arises with every citta. It is arising now. All of us experience it almost all day long. But do we experience it with sati and panna? Observe feeling now. Somewhere it is arising but is it experienced with sati or lobha or moha or dosa? Or are we not sure what type of citta experienced it? Do we think it is "us" who is experiencing feeling? Obviously if we do then that is not satipatthana - that is vipallasa , a perversion of view. Do we think I am having insight? Do we think sati is something we bought up, we conditioned? It is easy to see these strong vipallasa but there are more subtle aspects of vipallasa. By hearing enough and considering conditions are built up to gradually let go of the clinging to wrong practice that we have accumulated, Then there can be the opportunity for sati and panna to understand dhammas, as they are now. Whether we are sitting, or standing, or in the meditation center there can be awareness of dhammas -but not by clinging. There is no self - that is the illusion formed by the rapid change and the different elements doing their functions. It is like a movie - merely different frames joined together and giving the appearance of life.And yet, like a movie we get so engrossed in the 'story of my life'. None of the elements, the different cetasikas and cittas and rupas have any idea of wanting to do this or that. They are merely carrying out there function - which is to know, or to hear, or to see, or to crave and so many other elements with different functions. There are levels of understanding both at the theoretical and experiential level. The theory assists understanding at the practical level and the practical makes the theory clearer. Even when we are thinking there can be moments of direct understanding of the characteristics of different realities. Also when we are studying a Dhamma book there can be many moments when there is direct study of realities. This is an important question because we have to learn how to study realities directly otherwise our Dhamma study is merely theoretical. Sometimes we might think "there is no self" but still have no understanding. Thus even when we are reflecting or contemplating or whatever we call it we need to develop the ability to see below the surface and see the realities that are conditioning the thinking. It can be done and discussions like these perhaps help to encourage. And are we grateful for the understanding we have now? Whatever level is there only because of the compassion of the Buddha who developed the parami over 100,000 aeons and 4 unthinkably long periods of time. And too the sangha that kept the teachings pristine for these thousands of years - in Sri lanka, Thailand, Burma, Cambodia. end quote. ******* Nina. #62354 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 10:31 am Subject: Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil kelvin_lwin Hi KenH, > experts. But whenever they have given a specific example, KS's > perspective has been shown to be entirely consistent with the > ancient texts. Kel: Entirely consistent? I don't think so. I only see it being consistent if you read it in a certain way for some issues. That happens for most everyone though. I'm just saying your statement is way overstated. > No, I will not agree that there is a formal practice for samatha. > Samatha is the calm that accompanies kusala consciousness. No one can > decree, "Let my consciousness be kusala!" Kel: Erm who's talking about commanding consciousness to be kusala? Have you even read such chapters in Visuddhimagga? Try Description of the Earth Kasina where picking the object, place and everything is explained in detail. 7 unsuitable things might be useful since it's even reference in panna portion. > Heaven help me if I ever think the Dhamma is obvious in any way. No, > that is a description of certain kusala paramattha dhammas - fleeting > phenomena known only to the wise. They arise by conditions, not by > anyone's control. Kel: It is obvious intellectually. The hard part is living it. > ------------- > <. . .> > Kel: err what commentaries that rule it out? Maybe by some > particular way of reading it but definitely not common one in Burma. > -------------- > > I was thinking of where the commentaries explain that the mode of > "going" known to the monk when he is walking is not the conventional > mode that is known to uninstructed worldlings and even to "dogs and > jackals." (Please read post No. 52642 by Nina) Contrary to that, I > think you will find that there are millions of Buddhists who stoically > concentrate on their feet, "Lifting, lifting, moving, moving, placing, > placing" and so on. They are relying on a mistaken reading of the > Satipatthana Sutta (and of the Visuddhimagga, which also mentions > walking). Kel: Well if you truly understand that it's merely a device and not the end then I don't see a problem. I have a question for you, how do you think Bodhisatta fulfilled his paramis with a sense of self in 99% of his lives? - kel #62355 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 10:41 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe, 48 nilovg di.t.thiDear friends, The characteristic of moha should not be confused with the characteristic of di.t.thi (wrong view), which only arises with lobha- múla-cittas. When di.t.thi arises one takes, for example, what is impermanent for permanent, or one believes that there is a self. Moha is not wrong view, it is ignorance of realities. Moha conditions di.t.thi, but the characteristic of moha is different from the characteristic of di.t.thi The two types of moha-múla-citta are: 1 Arising with indifferent feeling, accompanied by doubt (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, vicikicchå-sampayutta.m). 2 Arising with indifferent feeling, accompanied by restlessness (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, uddhacca-sampayutta.m). When we have the type of moha-múla-citta which is accompanied by doubt, we doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. We may doubt whether the Buddha really discovered the truth, whether he taught the Path leading to the end of defilements, whether there are other people who can become enlightened as well. We may doubt about past and future lives, about kamma and vipåka. There are many degrees of doubt. When we start to develop insight we may have doubt about the reality of the present moment; we may doubt whether it is nåma or rúpa. For example, when there is hearing, there is sound as well, but there can be awareness of only one reality at a time, since only one object at a time can be experienced by citta. We may doubt whether the reality which appears at the present moment is the nåma which hears or the rúpa which is sound. Nåma and rúpa arise and fall away so rapidly and when a precise understanding of their different characteristics has not been developed one does not know which reality appears at the present moment. There will be doubt about the world of paramattha dhammas until pa~n~nå (wisdom) clearly knows the characteristics of nåma and rúpa as they appear through the six doors. The Atthasåliní (Book II, Part IX, chapter III, 259) states about doubt: Here doubt means exclusion from the cure (of knowledge). Or, one investigating the intrinsic nature by means of it suffers pain and fatigue (kicchati)--thus it is doubt. It has shifting about as characteristic, mental wavering as function, indecision or uncertainty in grasp as manifestation, unsystematic thought (unwise attention) as proximate cause, and it should be regarded as a danger to attainment. ***** Nina. #62356 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 10:44 am Subject: Letters from Nina 29. nilovg Dear friends, After the Buddha's discourse the brahmin could see realities as they are and attained enlightenment. The Buddha said that he had also in a former life, when he was still a Bodhisatta, cured this brahmin of grief. The brahmin was then a king who was very greedy for power. He wanted to possess many kingdoms. When he did not obtain three cities which were promised to him, he became sick of grief. The Bodhisatta explained to him that those who are greedy want to have more and more and are never satisfied. He cured the brahmin of his sickness by words of wisdom. He said: 'What, O King! Can you capture those cities by grieving?' When the king answered that he could not, the Bodhisatta said: 'Since that is so, why grieve, O great King? Every thing, animate or inanimate, must pass away, and leave all behind, even its own body...' We read that the Bodhisatta also said: 'For each desire that is let go a happiness is won: He that all happiness would have, must with all lust have done.' ******* Nina. #62357 From: Daniel Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 11:44 am Subject: Re: Buddhist physical exercises sbhtkk Hello Matheesha, Kelvin, Charles and all, Thank you for the information, I hope I will be able to find a reliable teacher for any of the physical disciplines related to buddhism... Daniel #62358 From: Daniel Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 11:53 am Subject: Re: How Faith, Truth and Wisdom are Related sbhtkk Hi Kelvin and all, Perhaps you (or anyone) could tell something from his own experience on the difference between knowing something for yourself, and because someone else says so? How can the differences be identified? Thankfuly, Daniel Re: How Faith, Truth and Wisdom are Related Posted by: "kelvin_lwin" Hi Daniel, Daniel: > Well, these are my thoughts. I would be glad to hear > responses since I > feel that there are additional differences between thinking a > sentence after > you came to a conclusion yourself, and because another person said > so, which I > have not identified yet. This is normally defined as suta-maya-panna and cinta-maya-panna. Suta-maya is a knowledge given by outside source. Cinta-maya is knowledge from your own thinking and reflecting on it. The only way to really know is to develop bhavana-maya-panna which is the experiential knowledge. So it is said that beginning is suta-maya then you understand it better with cinta-maya and finally live it with bhavana-maya. - Kel #62359 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 4:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Regarding the contemplation of the signless (animittanupassana) I am clueless, perhaps even signless ;-) Vism.XXII,117 clearly says "Contemplation of the signless is the same as contemplation of impermanence." "The Buddhist Dictionary" under 'vipassana' says "[contemplation of] the unconditioned (or signless, animittanupasana)". This category of insight is one of the 18 principal insights that have to do with "abandoning by the substitution of opposites": Vism.XVII,113: "And also in the case of the eighteen principal insights the abandoning by substitution of opposites is: (1) the abandoning of the perception of permanence, through the means of the contemplation of impermanence; (2) of the perception of pleasure, through the means of contemplating pain; (3) of the perception of self, through the means of the contemplation of not-self; (4) of delight, through the means of the contemplation of dispassion (revulsion); (5) of greed, through the means of the contemplation of fading away; (6) of originating, through the means of the contemplation of cessation; (7) of grasping, through the means of the contemplation of relinquishment; (8) of the perception of the compact, through the means of the contemplation of destruction; (9) of accumulation, through the means of the contemplation of fall; (10) of the perception of lastingness, through the means of the contemplation of change; (11) of the sign, through the means of the contemplation of the signless; (12) of desire, through the means of the contemplation of the desireless; (13) of misinterpreting (insisting) due to grasping at a core, through the means of insight into states that is higher understanding; (15) of misinterpreting (insisting) due to confusion, through the means of correct knowledge and vision; (16) of misinterpreting (insisting) due to reliance [on formations], through the means of the contemplation of reflexion; (18) of misinterpreting (insisting) due to bondage, through the means of the contemplation of turning away (cf. Ps.i,47)." L: Perhaps what is meant is what is gone because of impermanence is signless and similarly nibbana being cessation is signless. Can you relate impermanence, sign, and signlessness to A. Sujin's remarks on sign? There is also this: Patisambhidamagga I,435: "When he sees clearly the sign [of formations] as terror and sees [their] fall each time he applies [his knowledge to them] because he is resolved upon the signless [aspect of nibbana], this is the signless abiding [of insight]. When he sees clearly desire [of formations] as terror and sees [their] fall each time he applies [his knowledge to formations] because he is resolved upon the desireless [aspect of nibbana], this is the desireless abiding [of insight]. When he sees clearly misinterpretation [of formations] as terror and sees [their] fall each time he applies [his knowledge to formations] because he is resolved upon voidness [aspect of nibbana], this is the void abiding [of insight]." Larry ps: Herman appears to be signless also. #62360 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 6:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: the latest distortion scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Allow me to set you straight on this important doctrinal concern (after which I promise a return to serious things ;-)): S: "Now Scott, on that walrus with John & Paul, wasn't there a bit at then end which had to be played backwards to make sense...?;/!" This came from the later recording, not Magical Mystery Tour (wherein the Walrus was featured). The phrase "Number nine" was the one in question, from the track known as "Revolution Number Nine," on The White Album. Played backwards this was to have said: "Turn me on dead man." Of course a scholarly look at this reveals that the meaning was subtly altered during the sanskritisation of the work. As is easily seen, this alteration went in favour of a more or less pervasive and global combination of sassata-di.t.thi and sakkaaya-di.t.thi, as it revolved around the concept of "dead man." The request, of a dead man, to be "turned on" by him, is simply fraught with micchaa-di.t.thi. The pronunciation of "number nine," taking into account the Liverpudlian accent and histrionic enunciation, is rendered, more or less: ahnumbah ninah. Backwards, then, this is: ahnin ahbmunah. This, of course, is immediately apparent as being the poorly pronounced paali phrase: a~n~naa abhi~n~naa, the meaning of which should be obvious. Thank you. S. #62361 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 7:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil ken_aitch Hi Howard, --------------------------------------- Howard: > Yes, unfortunately I know the feeling well. ;-) I do apologize for expressing my irritation to you. (It seems I react to you as an easy trigger.) --------------------------------------- Not at all! Your response showed admirable restraint considering that you mistook my explanation as disapproval. My talk about rejecting parts of the texts was not a disapproval of text rejection. It was to make a more subtle point. Skip the next three paragraphs if you are really bored with the subject, but I would like to explain a little more. Phil's point was that both Jon and Sarah (et al) have always said, 'Don't take my word for it, here it is in the texts.' Or, in other words, 'It's not just my take on the matter; I believe it is explained this way in the texts.' Very often, people have (in all good faith) said, "No, that is just your take on the matter: the texts do not say that at all." Then, as I elaborated, there have been long and detailed discussions ending in, "OK, maybe that is what the texts say, but I reject those particular sections of text." Again, I have no argument with anyone's right to reject whatever they want to reject. However, it is galling to see those long and detailed discussions ignored or forgotten and the same claim come up afresh: "This is just Jon and Sarah's (or K Sujin's) take on the matter." You just happened (in all innocence as you explained) to use the word "take" in the wrong place at the wrong time. :-) --------- H: > > > I don't believe anyone on DSG has been appointed to be a Buddhist Torquemada. > > > KH: > > No, unless you count self-appointed, and then there'd be one or two of us. :-) > > H: > I do not try to censor anyone. I don't *choose* to censor anyone. --------- No, I was making a joke at my own (and maybe Phil's) expense. While we are on the subject, I might add that there are other aspects to being a "Buddhist Torquemada." The proponents of the Spanish inquisition were not only censoring: they were also (in their view) protecting. Did I understand TG correctly when he admitted, quite openly, to this role? Didn't he say that he drops in occasionally at DSG purely to spread mayhem and to disrupt our discussions? I gather he sees the Abhidhamma, and any talk of paramattha dhammas, as a terrible threat to Buddhism. Maybe there's a bit of Torquemada in all of us. I know you are a bit outspoken sometimes, trying to shield new members from DSG's "helplessness and hopelessness" aspects. I, in turn, try to steer them away from formal practices. I am sure we are taking ourselves far too seriously, and people are perfectly capable of making up their own minds. :-) Ken H #62362 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 3:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 8/9/06 10:12:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > > Yes, unfortunately I know the feeling well. ;-) I do apologize > for expressing my irritation to you. (It seems I react to you as an > easy trigger.) > --------------------------------------- > > Not at all! Your response showed admirable restraint considering that > you mistook my explanation as disapproval. My talk about rejecting > parts of the texts was not a disapproval of text rejection. It was to > make a more subtle point. Skip the next three paragraphs if you are > really bored with the subject, but I would like to explain a little more. > > Phil's point was that both Jon and Sarah (et al) have always said, > 'Don't take my word for it, here it is in the texts.' Or, in other > words, 'It's not just my take on the matter; I believe it is explained > this way in the texts.' > > Very often, people have (in all good faith) said, "No, that is just > your take on the matter: the texts do not say that at all." Then, as I > elaborated, there have been long and detailed discussions ending in, > "OK, maybe that is what the texts say, but I reject those particular > sections of text." Again, I have no argument with anyone's right to > reject whatever they want to reject. However, it is galling to see > those long and detailed discussions ignored or forgotten and the same > claim come up afresh: "This is just Jon and Sarah's (or K Sujin's) > take on the matter." -------------------------------------------- Howard: I doubly apologize for having thought that you were being disapproving. However, as regards one's take on a matter, the accepting of someone else's interpretation, for example a commentarial interpretation, is an adoption of that interpretation as one's own. That interpretation then becomes one's take on the issue. One's take on an issue, whatever the basis for it, is still just opinion. It may be correct. It might not be. When I use the word 'take' I don't mean anything disparaging in that usage in the slightest. For me it is a neutral term. ------------------------------------------------ > > You just happened (in all innocence as you explained) to use the word > "take" in the wrong place at the wrong time. :-) ---------------------------------------------- Howard: My bad luck ... er, kamma vipaka! ;-) ---------------------------------------------- > > --------- > H: >>>I don't believe anyone on DSG has been appointed to be a > Buddhist Torquemada. > >>> > > KH: >>No, unless you count self-appointed, and then there'd be one > or two of us. :-) > >> > > H: >I do not try to censor anyone. I don't *choose* to censor anyone. > --------- > > No, I was making a joke at my own (and maybe Phil's) expense. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Excellent! I wish I had a better sense of humor today! Seriously, I need to lighten up. :-) ------------------------------------------------- > > While we are on the subject, I might add that there are other aspects > to being a "Buddhist Torquemada." The proponents of the Spanish > inquisition were not only censoring: they were also (in their view) > protecting. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I know! I used the name to purposely include in part the meaning of "defender of the faith". But I misunderstood your intent, and I regret my harshness. (Not right speech by any means.) ------------------------------------------------ Did I understand TG correctly when he admitted, quite> > openly, to this role? Didn't he say that he drops in occasionally at > DSG purely to spread mayhem and to disrupt our discussions? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Did he? I don't recall. You'll have to ask him. (Though we see a number of matters quite similarly, we're not tag-team wrestlers! ;-) ---------------------------------------------- I gather> > he sees the Abhidhamma, and any talk of paramattha dhammas, as a > terrible threat to Buddhism. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Again, you'll have to ask him. I presume you know by now that this is not my view. -------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe there's a bit of Torquemada in all of us. I know you are a bit > outspoken sometimes, trying to shield new members from DSG's > "helplessness and hopelessness" aspects. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: There's no problem with expressing one's point of view, nor of disgreeing with that of another. That is quite different from trying to shut out opposing views. ------------------------------------------------- I, in turn, try to steer> > them away from formal practices. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. We're at opposite poles when it comes to that, though I see a germ of truth in the no-can-do perspective. I'm willing to look for truth wherever it might be hiding! ;-) ------------------------------------------------ I am sure we are taking ourselves far> > too seriously, and people are perfectly capable of making up their own > minds. :-) ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Superb! You have hit upon a point of agreement!! :-) -------------------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ========================== With metta, Howard #62363 From: "Jeffrey S. Brooks" Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 7:40 pm Subject: Contemplative Jeffery S Brooke --- Re: See for Your self jhanananda Hello Suan, while you claim to be a "A Humble Lay Disciple of" anyone. And, do not forget to take your medication regularly. By the way, while Theravadans may wish to appropriate the Buddha dhamma for themselves, it is only the who believe they have the propriaty to do so. The the Buddha, "Bhikkhu" meant monstic follower of the Buddha. It most certainly did not mean "Theravadan monk." There weren't any at his time. Best regards, Jhanananda --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Jeffrey S, Brooks > > How are you? > > It is great that you are promting yourself, your views on religions > and your activities. It is your right to do so in a society where > free speech is valued and shared by all of us. > > The only thing I would like to strongly suggest to you is that you > should make extra effort to not seem to be misleading the people > into believing that you might be a Buddhist monk. > > According to your writing about yourself, you wrote: > > "He (Jhananada) is not anyone's disciple, devotee, representative or > student." > > Thus, it is clear that you are not the Buddha's disciple, devotee, > representative or student. Then, it follows that there is no need > for you to camoufalge yourself with the Bhikkhu title and appearance > (wearing the robe of a Bhuddhist monk and a shaven head). > > But, you signed off your post as Bhikkhu Jhananda. > > At first, I was confused by that signature because Bhikkhu title is > reserved for Theravada Buddhsit monks. > > As you are not ordained by Theravada Samgha, you should not use the > title "Bhikkhu" reserved for a member of Theravada Samgha simply > because this can lead to confusion. > > As you claimed to be a western contemplative, why don't you just > choose an English title such as Contemplative or Western > Contemplative, thus making a proper lable "Contemplative Jefferey S > Brooke." You do not have to use Pali title and Pali name, which can > be confusing and misleading the people. > > If you really believe that you have genuine attainments, you should > also believe in yourself and your ability to communicate them in > English terms as a native speaker of English. > > You do not have to use Pali technical terms reserved for the > teachings of the Buddha and his faithful Bhikkhu disciples, > representatives, students and followers. > > I trust that your spiritual attainments would help you see my > suggestions are sincere and good for you and the people in contact > with you. > > With compassion, > > Suan Lu Zaw > > A Humble Lay Disciple of Gotama the Buddha > > > PS-- do not forget to take your medication regularly. > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jhanananda > wrote: > > Hello friend, the Buddha used to say, ³Ehipassikho,² see for your > self. So, > see for yourself what the Buddha really said, There you can also > see for > your self what Patanjali said in his Yoga Sutras. See for yourself > what > these teachers said in the original Pali, and Sanskrit and in several > English translations. <...> #62364 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 9:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 93 and Tiika. jonoabb Hi Nina Fascinating stuff, as ever. A quick question on one of the terms used in the text (but not elaborated on in the tika, perhaps): Nina van Gorkom wrote: >... >Text Vis. 93. (18) The twelve path factors classed as profitable, >etc., which assist in the sense of an outlet from whatever it may be, >are 'path conditions', > > Any thoughts about the significance of the term 'outlet'? I've come across it in other parts of Vism, in connection with the NEP. Thanks. Jon #62365 From: connie Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 10:17 pm Subject: Re: Momentary nature of the path (ps Joop) nichiconn Hi, Larry, i'm with you, except that i looked in Conditional Relations first occurrences index and as close as i got was "aniccato vipassati: practises insight into the impermanence of" and wasn't going to look it up, but there were a couple other cool words there from the same page: pubbenivaasa: past existence & yathaakamma: according to one's kamma (which differs from kammasakata how?) so curiosity won out: CR I,142: <<404. Faultless state is related to faultless state by object condition. After having offered the offering, having undertaken the precept, having fulfilled the duty of observance, (one) reviews it. (One) reviews (such acts) formerly well done. Having emerged from jhaana, (one) reviews the jhaana. Learners review change-of-lineage. (They) review purification. Learners, having emerged from Path, review the Path. Learners or common worldlings practise insight into the impermanency, suffering and impersonality of the faultless (state). By the knowledge of penetration into other's minds (they) know the faultless mind of the other being. Faultless "infinity of space" is related to faultless "infinity of consciousness" by object condition. Faultless "nothingness" is related to faultlesss "neither-perception-nor-non-perception" by object condition. Faultless aggregates are related to knowledge of supernormal power, knowledge of penetration into others' minds, knowledge of remembrance of past existences, knowledge of rebirths according to one's kamma, knowledge of future existences by object condition.>> also not quite on track, a great section of Udaana Cy begins on p61: <> Shower included: "That wherein stress is tranquillized, which has the Deathless as its object, lovely, wherein all appetite for the world is vomited, calm, is the utmost fruition of recluseship" (Vism 701) followed by a course of "dependent co-arising". peace, connie ps: Joop, I'll have to go back and see if there was any more for you, but who knows when? I think you might rather i send you some stuff from Paaramiis, meanwhile: p64 Dependent co-arising (pat.ticcasamuppaada.m) is a thing that forms a condition; for it is things that form conditions, such as ignorance and so on, that are (to be understood by) "dependent co-arising". Lest (it should be asked) how this is to be known, (one should answer) by way of the Word of the Lord. For root-causes, such as ignorance and so on, are spoken of by the Lord as follows: "Therefore, this same, Aananda, is, in this connection, the root-cause, this the source, this the origination, this the condition, of old age and dying, that is to say, birth...of the formations, that is to say, ignorance" (D ii 57-63). Just as there are twelve conditions, (so are there) twelve dependent co-arisings. p68 For dependent co-arising is the occurrence of the khandhas together with (such) fetters, which (fetters) are latent (within those khandhas) on account of their not having been completely rooted out. later, c. #62366 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 10:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Momentary nature of the path ( was Re: Letters from Nina, 13. matheesha333 Hi Larry, Sarah, I don't agree that the animitta samadhi is a type of vipassana! The suttas speak of going up the jhanas and attaining animitta samadhi after the 8th jhana. It is THEN through understanding that even animitta samadhi is a fabricated thing, understanding it's characteristics, that nibbana is gained. It is one of the three doors to nibbana, not nibbana itself. Another sutta speaks of developing animitta samadhi as 'your awareness release'. I wrote to Sarah earlier showing from the suttas that awareness release is actually a samatha attainment; the word vimutti in that, not meaning release in a nibbanic sense, and that it leads to future (good) births. Only if it is joined with panna vimutti does it become 'buddhist' enlightenment. see below: "Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of wilderness, not attending to the perception of earth -- attends to the singleness based on the perception of the dimension of the infinitude of space... (and so on through the four levels of formless jhana. Then:) Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception -- attends to the singleness based on the signless concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its signless concentration of awareness. He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of nothingness... that would exist based on the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is void... (etc.)' Further, Ananda, the monk -- not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception -- attends to the singleness based on the signless concentration of awareness. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its signless concentration of awareness. He discerns that 'This signless concentration of awareness is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to stopping.' For him -- thus knowing, thus seeing -- the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is void of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And there is just this non- voidness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as void of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into voidness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure -- superior & unsurpassed. M 121 http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thaniss aro/likefire/2-3.html "Furthermore, there is the case where a monk might say, 'Although the signless has been developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well- undertaken by me as my *awareness-release*, still my consciousness follows the drift of signs.' He should be told, 'Don't say that. You shouldn't speak in that way. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One, for it's not right to misrepresent the Blessed One, and the Blessed One wouldn't say that. It's impossible, there is no way that -- when the signless has been developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, and well- undertaken as an awareness-release -- consciousness would follow the drift of signs. That possibility doesn't exist, for this is the escape from all signs: the signless as an awareness-release.' http://www.metta.lk/mirror/www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/angutt ara/an06-013.html I have found going over these suttas again useful. Thanks. with metta Matheesha #62367 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: the latest distortion sarahprocter... Oh Scott, (Connie, Howard, Phil* & zany fans only), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Allow me to set you straight on this important doctrinal concern .... I'm never going to get round to packing if friends insist on picking on my every word!! .... > (after which I promise a return to serious things ;-)): .... S: Meanwhile, at this rate, you'll be banished to the 'zany' corner of U.P. in no time!! ;-)) ... > > S: "Now Scott, on that walrus with John & Paul, wasn't there a bit at > then end which had to be played backwards to make sense...?;/!" > > This came from the later recording, not Magical Mystery Tour (wherein > the Walrus was featured). The phrase "Number nine" was the one in > question, from the track known as "Revolution Number Nine," on The > White Album. > > Played backwards this was to have said: "Turn me on dead man." > > Of course a scholarly look at this reveals that the meaning was subtly > altered during the sanskritisation of the work. As is easily seen, > this alteration went in favour of a more or less pervasive and global > combination of sassata-di.t.thi and sakkaaya-di.t.thi, as it revolved > around the concept of "dead man." The request, of a dead man, to be > "turned on" by him, is simply fraught with micchaa-di.t.thi. > > The pronunciation of "number nine," taking into account the > Liverpudlian accent and histrionic enunciation, is rendered, more or > less: ahnumbah ninah. Backwards, then, this is: ahnin ahbmunah. > This, of course, is immediately apparent as being the poorly > pronounced paali phrase: a~n~naa abhi~n~naa, the meaning of which > should be obvious. ... S: What a wit! Glad to see you putting your new Pali expertise to such a noble cause:-) And of course, we all know what went into some of those micchaa-di.t.thi Magical sounds and it was a little simpler than the Pali version of the highest abhi~n~naa we read about in the texts, I believe:-)) Now, I've been wondering what the title of your Ph D must have been as you slaved away during those long Canadian winter nights, sipping milk to the tune of 'Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds', no doubt. Let's have a crack - "A psychoanalytical paradigm of the Shankarian sanskritisation evident in Micchaa Magical Mysteries." Am I close? If not I'll try to keep to my plege not to respond to any new posts til I'm at least off on my real (as in paramattha) trip and leave the serious scholarly word-invention experts like Connie, Howard and Phil* to have next go (or sort out the mess, whatever). Metta, Sarah * p.s In the case of Phil, he likes a prize offered, I warn you and a packet of smarties won't do! You missed his 'Dear Abby' (or was it 'Dear Abhi'?) posts - you might like to ask him for more:-) =================== #62368 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:11 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 512- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (tranquillity/calm) Calm is one of the factors of enlightenment. We read in the Book of Analysis (Chapter 10, Analysis of the Enlightenment Factors, § 469): * "… That which is calmness of body (cetasikas), that calmness enlightenment factor is for full knowledge, for enlightenment, for full emancipation also. That which is calmness of consciousness, that calmness-enlightenment factor is for full knowledge, for enlightenment, for full emancipation also." * As right understanding develops the enlightenment factor of calm develops as well. We do not have to aim at calm. When the enlightenment factor of calm accompanies at the moment of enlightenment lokuttara citta, it is also lokuttara. As defilements are eradicated at the subsequent stages of enlightenment there will be more peace of mind, less restlessness. The arahat who has eradicated all defilements has reached true calm which cannot be disturbed again by defilements. We read in the Dhammapada (verse 96) about the arahat: * "Calm is his mind, calm is his speech, calm is his action, who, rightly knowing, is wholly freed, perfectly peaceful, and equiposed." * ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #62369 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 93 and Tiika. nilovg Dear Jon and Larry, Outlet, niyyaana. In this case outlet is used in a wide sense, since it also pertains to the wrong path that can lead out from this world to an unhappy destiny. In the Path of Discrimination (p. 265) outlet is used in connection with the three liberations of signless (seeing dhammas as impermanent), desireless (seeing them as dukkha), void (seeing them as anattaa) which occur just before enlightenment. It depends on the individual's accumulations which of the three occurs. Some people are more inclined to see dhammas as anattaa, other as dukkha, others as impermanent. We read in the P. of Discr. : This is connected with the texts quoted by Larry just now. Larry also asks: N: She explains about sankhaara nimitta, the sign of conditioned realities, mentioning that each of the five khandhas has a nimitta. This refers to the arising and falling away of each conditioned dhamma. It seems to us that they last, but they fall away very rapidly and only a nimitta remains. So this is a different context. Nibbaana is without nimitta, but this can only be understood when enlightenment has been attained. I would say: now animitta, signless, is merely a term to us. Nina. Op 10-aug-2006, om 6:48 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > Text Vis. 93. (18) The twelve path factors classed as profitable, > >etc., which assist in the sense of an outlet from whatever it may be, > >are 'path conditions', > > > > > > Any thoughts about the significance of the term 'outlet'? I've come > across it in other parts of Vism, in connection with the NEP. #62370 From: Bhikkhu samahita Date: Wed Aug 9, 2006 11:57 pm Subject: Meditation is the Core Praxis of Buddhism... bhikkhu_ekamuni The Blessed Buddha said in DN2: Endowed with this noble aggregate of morality, this noble sense control, this noble awareness and alertness, and this noble contentment, he seeks out a secluded dwelling: a forest, the shade of a tree, a mountain, a glen, a hillside cave, a charnel ground, a jungle grove, the open air, or just a heap of straw. After his meal, returning from his alms round, he sits down, crosses his legs, holds his body erect, and brings awareness in focus. Furthermore 81 !!! times is it reported that the Blessed Buddha strongly emphasized: Friends! There are roots of trees and there are empty places. Meditate or you will come to regret it later... Finally he said: Intent on meditation, determined, he should delight in the lonely forest grove. He should meditate at the foot of a tree, thereby inducing calm content... Sn 709. vandana Friendship is the Greatest... Bhikkhu Samahita <....> #62371 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:10 am Subject: Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil ken_aitch Hi Kel, ---------- KH: > > No one can decree, "Let my consciousness be kusala!" > > Kel: > Erm who's talking about commanding consciousness to be kusala? ------------ I'm not sure what you're objecting to here. Perhaps the word "commanding" was too melodramatic. How about "making?" Isn't that the aim of formal samatha practice? And in the case of formal vipassana practice, isn't right mindfulness the aim? So, isn't it fair to characterise formal practice as a way of making kusala and samma dhammas arise? ------------------ K: > Have you even read such chapters in Visuddhimagga? Try Description of the Earth Kasina where picking the object, place and everything is explained in detail. 7 unsuitable things might be useful since it's even reference in panna portion. ------------------- No, I have only read parts of them. Are you citing them as examples of formal practices (devices) for "making" kusala and samma consciousness arise? If not, what are they, in your opinion? -------------------- Kel: It is obvious intellectually. The hard part is living it. --------------------- Sorry to be disagreeing with almost everything you say, but the Abhidhamma is far from obvious - intellectually or otherwise. In my case, for example, it has been a huge step up from my former, conventional, understanding of Buddhism. I am still learning (at the intellectual level) how there can be a path with no traveller on it. It defies conventional logic. I think the obvious versions (for example, 'sit and meditate until you turn into great sage') are the major obstacle we all need to get past before we can have right understanding. -------------- <. . .> KH: > "Lifting, lifting, moving, moving, placing, placing" and so on. They are relying on a mistaken reading of the Satipatthana Sutta (and of the Visuddhimagga, which also mentions walking). Kel: Well if you truly understand that it's merely a device and not the end then I don't see a problem. --------------- Wrong understanding conditions more wrong understanding. There is no point at which it magically turns into right understanding. ------------------------- Kel: > I have a question for you, how do you think Bodhisatta fulfilled his paramis with a sense of self in 99% of his lives? ------------------------- I don't think that at all. A sense of self can arise with either wrong view, attachment or conceit. At such moments there is no development of the paramis. The Bodhisatta had wholesome moments (with no sense of self) in between the unwholesome moments that you are referring to. The unwholesome ones were in no way devices for bringing about the wholesome ones. Ken H #62372 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:16 am Subject: Re: Momentary nature of the path (ps Joop) matheesha333 Hi Connie, M: great quote here: also not quite on track, a great section of Udaana Cy begins on p61: > < all ariyans attain their own respective fruition. > But why do these attain (same)? With the aim of abiding in that bliss > belonging to these seen conditions. For just as a king experiences royal > bliss, the devataa heavenly bliss, so do ariyans attain > fruition-attainment at the moment of their choice after (first) setting > the limit for the period (proposed) thinking "I will experience > supermundane bliss". > And how is there attaining thereof, how sustaining, how emerging? > (1) there is, first of all, attaining thereof in two (separate) modes: > through not paying attention to any object other than nibbaana, and > through paying attention to nibbaana, in accordance with which there is > said: "There are friend, two conditions for the attainment of liberation > of heart that is signless - not paying attention to any sign (whatsoever) > [35] and paying attention to the signless slement" (M i 296). This is, > moreover, the procedure for attaining (same) in this connection: > formations are to be penetrated with vipassanaa by way of rise and fall > and so on by the ariyasaavaka having fruition-attainment as his goal who > has gone forth into hiding, who is in seclusion; as this same one > penetrates such occurrences during the progressive (stages of) vipassanaa, > his consciousness, (changes) immediately after knowledge of > change-of-lineage from one having those formations as its object, (and) > becomes absorbed in cessation by way of fruition-attainment - and, due to > his being bent on fruition-attainment, it is fruition alone that arises > even for the sekha, not the path.>> > M: This is phala-samapatti is it not? Did you feel that this had some similarity with animitta? with metta Matheesha #62373 From: "rahula_80" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Chanda rahula_80 Dear Sarah, Thank you for you reply. Sadhu 3X. Best wishes, Rahula #62374 From: "m" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: the latest distortion m_nease Hi Scott, Please excuse my butting in: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Allow me to set you straight on this important doctrinal concern > (after which I promise a return to serious things I think the main problem here is that you've taken the word 'dead' too literally when writing, " The request, of a dead man, to be "turned on" by him, is simply fraught with micchaa-di.t.thi." If one examines predialectic desublimation, one is faced with a choice: either accept the subcultural paradigm of reality or conclude that the raison d'etre of the participant is deconstruction. Sartre uses the term 'surrealism' to denote the absurdity of textual sexual identity. In a sense, the primary theme of la Fournier's model of textual neocultural theory is the difference between society and class. The subject is interpolated into a surrealism that includes culture as a paradox. It could be said that if textual neocultural theory holds, we have to choose between prebuddhist discourse and the modern paradigm of context. The main theme of the works of Stone is the role of the observer as participant. In a sense, Lacan uses the term 'predialectic desublimation' to denote the bridge between sexual identity and reality. Derrida's essay on Marxist class states that the media is [FUNDAMENTALLY] dead, given that the premise of textual neocultural theory is valid. But a number of appropriations concerning a self-fulfilling reality may be found (brackets and caps my own). mike #62375 From: "mike" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:06 am Subject: Re: the latest distortion: p.s. m_nease Dear Friends, My last response to Scott "...is completely meaningless and was randomly generated by the Postmodernism Generator..." http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo (with minor modifications). Sorry, mike #62376 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:04 am Subject: From Rob K's forum.5. nilovg Dear friends, this is a quote from Rob k' forum. < A friend asked: "I don't know that I've ever known the moment, but it's certainly clear in retrospect. But is this kind of retrospection of some value, or just 'darting among unrealities'?" --- Rob: Thinking about it in retrospect is not understanding at the level of satipatthana but, if it is right thinking, it is kusala and beneficial. Everyone has to see for themself how much this is useful. If it is done with panna it is very good but if we cling to this type of reflection again we are missing the main point. So many ways to think about it even in retrospection: are we considering that dosa was simply a parammattha dhamma; are we remembering that there is no self who has dosa; is there consideration that each moment arises to pass away instantly? This type of reflection is, if done with panna, a type of samattha ie dhammanusati- recollection of Dhamma. And it can support direct awareness. Even while we are thinking in this way, another level of panna can come in and directly understand some aspect of the thinking process - and that is satipatthana. If there is retrospection then that is what is happening now- and it is good to know whether it is done with kusala or akusala. At times we may reflect often about Dhamma but have very little direct awareness. At other times possibly little thinking but still direct awareness comes. Most of the time both are scarce. When we think about Dhamma or study Dhamma it can be and even should be (but of course no rule, not always) a condition for some direct study, at some level, (maybe simply at the level of what I call "consideration in the present") of the present moment. It is worrying that some who study even Abhidhamma do not connect it with satipatthana. But Abhidhamma is purely what is real - how can we separate this subject from the direct study of dhammas? Pariyatti should be intimately connected to patipatti. Robertk --------------- end quote. ****** Nina. #62377 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:14 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 49 nilovg Dear friends, Doubt is different from wrong view (di.t.thi). When there is di.t.thi one clings, for example, to the view that phenomena are permanent or that they are self. When vicikicchå, doubt, arises, one wonders whether the mind is different from the body or not, whether phenomena are permanent or impermanent. There is no other way to eradicate doubt but the development of paññå which sees realities as they are. People who have doubts about the Buddha and his teachings may think that doubt can be cured by studying historical facts. They want to find out more details about the time the Buddha lived and about the places where he moved about; they want to know the exact time the texts were written down. They cannot be cured of their doubt by studying historical events; this does not lead to the goal of the Buddha's teachings which is the eradication of defilements. People in the Buddha's time too were speculating about things which do not lead to the goal of the teachings. They were wondering whether the world is finite or infinite, whether the world is eternal or not eternal, whether the Tathågata (the Buddha) exists after his final passing away or not. We read in the Lesser Discourse to Målu"nkyå (Middle Length Sayings II, no. 63) that Målu"nkyåputta was displeased that the Buddha did not give explanations with regard to speculative views. He wanted to question the Buddha on these views and if the Buddha would not give him an explanation with regard to these views he wanted to leave the order. He spoke to the Buddha about this matter and the Buddha asked him whether he had ever said to Målu"nkyåputta: ``Come you, Målu"nkyåputta, fare the Brahma-faring under me and I will explain to you either that the world is eternal or that the world is not eternal... or that the Tathågata is... is not after dying... both is and is not after dying... neither is nor is not after dying?'' We read that Målu"nkyåputta answered: ``No, revered sir.'' The Buddha also asked him whether he (Målu"nkyåputta) had said that he would ``fare the Brahma-faring'' under the Lord if the Lord would give him an explanation with regard to these views and again Målu"nkyåputta answered: ``No, revered sir.'' The Buddha then compared his situation with the case of a man who is pierced by a poisoned arrow and who will not draw out the arrow until he knows whether the man who pierced him is a noble, a brahman, a merchant or a worker; until he knows the name of the man and his clan; until he knows his outward appearance; until he knows about the bow, the bowstring, the material of the shaft, the kind of arrow. However, he will pass away before he knows all this. It is the same with the person who only wants to ``fare the Brahma-faring'' under the Lord if explanations with regard to speculative views are given to him. ********** #62378 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:23 am Subject: Letters from Nina, 30 nilovg Dear friends, The Hague,15 February, '81 Dear Students in Penang, You requested me to write about Dhamma as it can be applied in daily life. We may ask ourselves about our goal in life. We all want happiness, but what is it? Can we find true happiness in life? Pleasant things we enjoy are susceptible to change, they are impermanent. We do not really see the impermanence of what is in ourselves and around ourselves, we cling to what is impermanent. We are slaves of the vicissitudes of life. One day we are praised and then we are glad. The next day we are treated unjustly and we are humiliated, and then we are sad. There are alternately gain and loss, fame and obscurity, praise and blame, contentment and pain. These are the eight 'worldly conditions' in our life. We read in the 'Gradual Sayings' (Book of the Eights, Ch I, par. 6) that the Buddha spoke to the monks about the eight worldly conditions which obsess the world. He spoke with regard to those who have not attained enlightenment: ... Monks, gain comes to the unlearned common average folk, who reflect not thus: "This gain which has come is impermanent, painful and subject to change." They know it not as it really is. Loss comes ... fame... obscurity... blame... praise... contentment... pain.... They reflect not that such are impermanent, painful and subject to change, nor do they know these conditions as they really are. Gain, loss and so forth take possession of their minds and hold sway there. They welcome the gain which has arisen; they rebel against loss. They welcome the fame which has arisen; they rebel against obscurity. They welcome the praise which has arisen; they rebel against blame. They welcome the contentment which has arisen; they rebel against pain. Thus given over to compliance and hostility, they are not freed from birth, old age, death, sorrows, lamentations, pains, miseries and tribulations. I say such people are not free from ill. ****** Nina. #62379 From: "mike" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mindfulness and insight 2 (samadhi) m_nease Hi Jon, Sorry for the delay-- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > >M: Guess I've missed something here. I have a feeling you've stated this > >before in different terms but could you please elaborate? Is it impossible > >for samatha bhaavanaa to arise with a citta experiencing a paramatha dhamma > >(e.g. color)? > > > It is more the fact that the panna is not of the appropriate kind. The > panna of samatha bhavana knows the difference between kusala and > akusala, but does not attend to the characteristic of the object. > I think so--I don't remember reading about two different degrees(?) of pa~n~naa before unless we're talking about lokiya vs lokuttara sammaadi.t.thi. Does this mean that samatha bhaavanaa and vipassana bhaavanaa are incompatible (i.e. can't arise with the same citta)? Is this explicit in the texts? I have a feeling we've been over this before but maybe not from this angle. Thanks for your patience. mike #62380 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:51 am Subject: Link to the Perfections, read by Lodewijk. nilovg Dear friends, I received the link to the Perfections, a. Sujin's book, read by Lodewijk. For some of you who do not have this it may be of use. It is edited by Tom Westheimer. Nina. http://www.dhammawords.org/perfections/ #62381 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:33 pm Subject: Re: Some Material on Right Speech from AN 10:176/Phil kelvin_lwin Hi KenH, > I'm not sure what you're objecting to here. Perhaps the word > "commanding" was too melodramatic. How about "making?" Isn't that the > aim of formal samatha practice? And in the case of formal vipassana > practice, isn't right mindfulness the aim? So, isn't it fair to > characterise formal practice as a way of making kusala and samma > dhammas arise? Kel: Not really make either. It would become obvious to someone who has gone through it. The difference between moments of kusala and akusala are seen more clearly. Then you may hope to see the subtle lobha that RobK and others are worried about. Otherwise without a deeper understanding of oneself and tendencies you'll make these basic and elementary mistakes. > No, I have only read parts of them. Are you citing them as > examples of formal practices (devices) for "making" kusala and samma > consciousness arise? If not, what are they, in your opinion? Kel: I'm citing them as a need for practice for doing specific things that are conducive. They are necessary but might not be sufficient for the final goal. If you just read the Earth Kasina and get back to me, this discussion would be easier. How can you make a categorial statement without having gone through it yourself? If you tell me preparing earth disk for kasina meditation is merely a description then I would be agast (ala andrew). I would type it up but I don't have my book with me at work. Here's a link with an excerpt about ascetic practices: http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-11.htm You'll find there's quite conventional things to do. Look at the last one, sitter's practice. Why do you suppose that's there? > Sorry to be disagreeing with almost everything you say, but the > Abhidhamma is far from obvious - intellectually or otherwise. In my > case, for example, it has been a huge step up from my former, > conventional, understanding of Buddhism. I am still learning (at the > intellectual level) how there can be a path with no traveller on it. > It defies conventional logic. Kel: Just because it's hard for you doesn't mean it is hard. Maybe if you combine living practice with intellectual understanding it would come easier. How do you even know your current understanding is a step up anyway? What measure do you use? You have said before that you followed a few traditions in your life and everytime you were convinced it was right. So what's the difference now? > Wrong understanding conditions more wrong understanding. There is no > point at which it magically turns into right understanding. Kel: Nope, wrong understanding can be an object of right understanding. There the contrast is as obvious as can be. > I don't think that at all. A sense of self can arise with either wrong > view, attachment or conceit. At such moments there is no development > of the paramis. The Bodhisatta had wholesome moments (with no sense of > self) in between the unwholesome moments that you are referring to. > The unwholesome ones were in no way devices for bringing about the > wholesome ones. Kel: Here's the biggest problem of right view having to come first. Buddha only encountered 28 living Buddhas while he was a Bodhisatta. There's no teaching of anatta outside of sasanas. So then how do you suppose he got right view to have these wholesome moments to begin with? Also in most of his human lives, he became an ascetic. What for? He could've just be in the present and be done. - Kel #62382 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:24 pm Subject: Theravada and Dzogchen ~ Small boat, Great Mountain ~ Amaro Bhikkhu christine_fo... Hello all, I was wondering about opinions on this book in which the similarities between Theravada and Dzogchen are discussed. It is available as a .pdf "Small Boat, Great Mountain ~ Therava-dan Reflections on the Natural Great Reflection" by Amaro Bhikkhu. I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on this. http://www.abhayagiri.org/index.php/main/book/138/ metta Christine #62383 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 6:24 pm Subject: Re: the latest distortion: p.s. scottduncan2 Dear Mike, !!! M: "My last response to Scott '...is completely meaningless and was randomly generated by the Postmodernism Generator...'" First I was like "whoa," then I was like "huh?" and then I was like "oh man..." Brilliant. Scott. #62384 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:05 pm Subject: Dhamma teacher scottduncan2 Dear All, A little help from those with more experience: How have you evaluated potential Dhamma teachers with whom you may or may not have chosen to study? What criteria might one use to decide whether or not one might be a good teacher? Since I have a chance to do this presently, I'd like some of your expertise, if you please. Thank you for your consideration. With loving kindness, Scott. #62385 From: connie Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:52 pm Subject: Re: Momentary nature of the path nichiconn dear Math, M: This is phala-samapatti is it not? Did you feel that this had some similarity with animitta? C: i think phalasamapatti is a vipassanaa also known as animitta cetosamadhi "signless concentration of the mind". similar, like it's aniccaanupassana's culmination? there's getting it and then abiding in it... animittavihaari.m puggala.m ... so different levels r/t culmination, because it's four-storied. the first floor or culmination being sotapatti magga phala sammaditthi? i just struggle with the word nimitta, thinking it "nothing friendly". peace, c. #62386 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma teacher upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 8/10/06 10:05:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear All, > > A little help from those with more experience: > > How have you evaluated potential Dhamma teachers with whom you may or > may not have chosen to study? What criteria might one use to decide > whether or not one might be a good teacher? > > Since I have a chance to do this presently, I'd like some of your > expertise, if you please. > > Thank you for your consideration. > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > ======================== I would rank humility as highest and an appreciation of the Kalama Sutta as a close second. Also of (to me) obvious importance is that s/he be a serious practitioner herself/himself who it seems has gotten significantly "futher along" than we have, who knows the Buddha's teachings well, and who is a clear communicator. One more point: You always have the Buddha's teachings to fall back on. I mention that obvious fact, because having no (living) teacher at all is a better choice than having a bad teacher. So please do take considerable care. With metta, Howard #62387 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:33 pm Subject: Re: Dhamma teacher corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear All, > > A little help from those with more experience: > > How have you evaluated potential Dhamma teachers with whom you may or > may not have chosen to study? What criteria might one use to decide > whether or not one might be a good teacher? Hi Scott If you dip him/her in an acetyline solution and he/she turns a light shade of mauve, that's a positive indication of sound Dhamma. Any other colour means you should make a dash for the Mexican border. ... seriously, look up the references to associating with the wise, kalyana-mitta, and (if there are claims of attainments) references to dealing with such claims. They might help. But really, your own present understanding of "right view" has to be important. I'm not suggesting you drop out as soon as that understanding is challenged ... but you'll know how long to persevere if your understanding doesn't change. Howard has some great advice. Let the Dhamma be your guide. Best wishes Andrew #62388 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma teacher matheesha333 Hi Scott, Howard >H: I would rank humility as highest and an appreciation of the Kalama > Sutta .... M: Having one teacher is great. But we only end up idealizing and projecting a perfect situation where there cannot be one, setting oneself up for dissappointment. This does not mean that one teacher might not take you far if you are willing to work with the limitations, as all situations in life. I agree with what Howard as said, dhamma knowledge and practice being more important for me than humility and the kalama sutta, which would come further down the line. Respect for the teachings and sincerity are important to me. Genuine loving-kindness is important to me. A sense of humour is nice and shows that he/she doesnt take the whole thing too seriously (less attached). Arrogance and not willing to consider new ideas is a turn-off. I have yet to have a teacher (as in monks who I learnt something from and not just associated with) who didnt even hint at some form of progress, atleast in the degree of insight and experience they had. It must be said I learnt a lot from several teachers, at the end of the day it is your own practice as well which is an amalgamation of many causes and effects. with metta Matheesha #62389 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop, > Hallo Sarah Take your time, I'm without PC the next week, but I think you have not reacted on my # 62171 On this message of you: it's clear to me. > > As to your original question - I don't see any reason to doubt what I read > in the Theravada texts. J: I don't doubt the Suttas but do on other parts of the Canon > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > Metta Joop #62390 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:03 am Subject: Re: Theravada and Dzogchen ~ Small boat, Great Mountain ~ Amaro Bhikkhu jwromeijn Hallo Christine, all Perhaps in two weeks I have an opinion, just downloaded it now Reminds me of Josephy Goldstein - One Dharma Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > I was wondering about opinions on this book in which the similarities > between Theravada and Dzogchen are discussed. It is available as > a .pdf "Small Boat, Great Mountain ~ Therava-dan Reflections on the > Natural Great Reflection" by Amaro Bhikkhu. > I'd be interested to hear anyone's thoughts on this. > http://www.abhayagiri.org/index.php/main/book/138/ > #62391 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 1:43 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 513- Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas (j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas The next pair of sobhana cetasikas is: lightness of cetasikas, kåya-lahutå lightness of citta, citta-lahutå According to the Dhammasangaùi (§ 42, 43) this pair of cetasikas consists in the absence of sluggishness and inertia, they have “alertness in varying”. The meaning of this will be clearer when we read what the “Múla-Tíkå”(1) states about lightness of citta: * “the capacity of the mind to turn very quickly to a wholesome object or to the contemplation of impermanence, etc.” * The Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part IV, Chapter I, 30) explains: * "Kåya-lightness is buoyancy of mental factors; citta-lightness is buoyancy of consciousness. They have the characteristic of suppressing the heaviness of the one and the other; the function of crushing heaviness in both; the manifestation of opposition to sluggishness in both, and have mental factors and consciousness as proximate cause. They are the opponents of the corruptions, such as sloth and torpor, which cause heaviness and rigidity in mental factors and consciousness." * The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 145) gives a similar definition. Lightness is the opponent of sloth and torpor (thína and middha), which cause heaviness and sluggishness with regard to kusala. When there is akusala citta, there is mental heaviness and we are unable to perform any kind of kusala. Kusala citta needs confidence (saddhå), it needs mindfulness or non-forgetfulness and it also needs mental lightness which suppresses heaviness and rigidity. When there is lightness of cetasikas and of citta they react with alertness so that the opportunity for kusala is not wasted. *** 1) A subcommentary quoted by Ven. Nyanaponika in Abhidhamma Studies,Chapter 1V, 10 ***** Six Pairs of Beautiful Cetasikas to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #62392 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma teacher buddhatrue Hi Scott (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Scott - > ======================== > I would rank humility as highest and an appreciation of the Kalama > Sutta as a close second. Also of (to me) obvious importance is that s/he be a > serious practitioner herself/himself who it seems has gotten significantly > "futher along" than we have, who knows the Buddha's teachings well, and who is a > clear communicator. > One more point: You always have the Buddha's teachings to fall back > on. I mention that obvious fact, because having no (living) teacher at all is a > better choice than having a bad teacher. So please do take considerable care. I do agree with all that Howard has had to say but I would like to add that your dhamma teacher should be a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni. Metta, James #62393 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ven. Cunda's Advice sarahprocter... Hi Joop, --- Joop wrote: > ....I think you have > not reacted on my # 62171 .... S: Quite right - I did intend to respond to it, so here goes: > --- Joop wrote: > Hallo Sarah, Howard, all > > The way I want to understand the Noble Eightfold Path is that I had > to DO again and again the eight aspects of it. > Sarah, you say it's about 'path factors' that develop (or not). .... S: Really, there's no we to DO anything. Conditioned dhammas arise and perform their functions - that's it. When you say 'I had do DO', what do you mean by this "I"? .... > I remember a discussion with Jon half a year ago about the NEP in > which I toke the example of 'right livelihood' in explaining > that 'right livelihood' is not something what happens if conditions > arise but is a active moral decision one had to take many moments in > one's life. .... S: Yes, there is an 'active moral decision' at many moments, but this moral decision consists of wise thinking, intentions, right effort and so on. Still no 'I' or 'one' to DO it. Still, conditioned dhammas - conditioned by wise reflection and understanding such as at this moment. .... > I do not agree with your use of the term 'path factors' of the NEP .... S: OK, any words which help us understand the path are fine by me. .... > > Perhaps said in ultimate language we are talking about a difference > between us of the term VIRIYA; 'effort', sometimes also tranlated > as 'energy' but that is not a good idea because 'energy' in physics > is a potential and we are not talking about a potential but about > what in fact happens. .... S: I tend to agree with you. So let's stick to the Pali terms for the 'links' of the path .... > (And yes, I did the chapter om viriya in Nina's book about cetasikas) .... > Viriya is (to me) not alone something what just happens when there > are conditions, one should also try to use it. Otherwise it is not an > effort. ... S: It's impossible for 'one' to 'use it'. Trying to do so with an idea of self just leads further and further away from the goal. .... >You are getting hopeless in a paradox (an effort that just > happens without trying) by calling viriya a dhamma that arises (just > happens) when there are conditions. .... S: On the contrary, I see the path of 'trying' and 'doing' by trying to will certain states or practice along the path as hopeless. When there is awareness/mindfulness of a dhamma appearing now, there is right effort or viriya already without any special trying or expectation or self getting in the way. .... > > In fact you are saying that too: > S: "Again, it comes back to this moment. If there has been sufficient > wise > CONSIDERING, mindfulness may arise and be aware of a dhamma appearing > now." > J: Look good at the term 'considering' What is 'to consider' ? It > can not be something else as a (mental) activity. Is it a dhamma or > are you in between using a conventional term? .... S: By wise considering, I'm thinking of yoniso manasikara, the condition for mindfulness to arise. There is such wise attention with all kinds of wholesome states, but here I'm especially thinking in terms of wise reflection - cittas thinking about concepts, but accompanied with panna (wisdom) at the level of pariyatti. ... > > Another point that surprises me that you so easy say "we agree there > are only ever the present dhammas now" Are you forgotten the > discussions (for example with me) about "accumulations". Is'nt it > better to say: there are present dhammas plus accumulations? .... S: I believe my original post and this comment was mainly addressed to Howard. No, I haven't forgotten our many good discussions, Joop. However, I thought I also wrote several messages to indicate that accumulations also refer to present dhammas now. Thinking now is an accumulation. Likes and dislikes now are accumulations now as well. They are all present dhammas. .... > For the rest: I agree with Howard about the need (some part of the > day) of silence and seclusion. Of course one can be attached to > silence, but good mindfulnes is mindful about that attachment too. .... S; Yes, there can be a lot of attachment to silence and physical seclusion. I think that the deepest meaning of silence and seclusion that the Buddha encouraged us to find is the seclusion from our usual partner, attachment. [lots in U.P. under 'seclusion', 'path', effort' etc, but as you say, it's all very biased:-)) .... > And of course: it's possible that one is mindfull at other moments of > the day, when not (formal) meditating. It's not an "either-or" point; > I propose (not original at all) to do both. .... S: That's fine. In the end we'll follow whatever there are accumulations to follow from moment to moment. We think we know what will happen at the next moment, but we never do. Will it be seeing of a particular visible object, hearing of a particular sound or what? Even as I write now, I'm being distracted by the news I can hear about Heathrow airpot. I didn't plan that, but no one can control or silence the mind-door processes by wishing or intention. Even if I turned the news off, what other mental distractions would there be by accumulations? I don't see the goal as being to stop or change such accumulations but to understand them for what they are - moments of thinking, seeing, hearing, happiness, grief and so on. None of them belonging to a self. None of them worth clinging onto or being distressed about. ..... > > The only point is: as long as I'm not perfect, being mindful in > meditation is helping me in being mindful in daily life. .... S: I'd say the same. Only, for me, meditation or bhavana refers to moments of understanding with calm only ever at the present moment, regardless of the paraphernalia around us in our physical and mental settings. Thanks again for giving me the prompt (pls do this anytime). I'll look forward to reading your messages while I travel and responding to anything futher on my return, Joop. Metta, Sarah ========= #62394 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How Faith, Truth and Wisdom are Related sarahprocter... Hi Kel (& Daniel), I hadn't seen you good comments below in response to the same lines in Daniel's post which I picked up. (I mistakenly thought no one had replied to him). I like the way you stress these 3 kinds of panna and help relative newcomers to the list. Enjoying all your discussions such as the ones on sense-door and mind-door processes with Scott and your recent lively discussion with Ken H:-) Keep him on his toes! (I'll try to raise some of our discussion points in Bangkok too.) Metta, Sarah ===== --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > Hi Daniel, > > > Well, these are my thoughts. I would be glad to hear > responses since I > > feel that there are additional differences between thinking a > sentence after > > you came to a conclusion yourself, and because another person said > so, which I > > have not identified yet. > > This is normally defined as suta-maya-panna and cinta-maya-panna. > Suta-maya is a knowledge given by outside source. Cinta-maya is > knowledge from your own thinking and reflecting on it. The only way > to really know is to develop bhavana-maya-panna which is the > experiential knowledge. So it is said that beginning is suta-maya > then you understand it better with cinta-maya and finally live it with > bhavana-maya. #62395 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'As Tears Go By'......(was:Born with pa~n~na.) sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Sarah, <..> > As I go through a day I think I must constantly seek to avoid grief - > grief in the momentary sense I suppose. I don't find that I dwell > much on the future. I guess I've tamed my anxiety, which seems to > arise along with living in an imaginary future. .... S: I know you're just speaking conventionally here, but really we can't avoid grief, anxiety or other shades of dosa as long as they are being conditioned by our attachments to sense objects. It may seem that we've found a way to escape for a while, but sooner or later the conditions will be there for such states to arise. Like all dhammas they are impermanent however and they really are beyond anyone's control. So the path of understanding is a path of detachment - acceptance of what is conditioned at this very moment, regardless of whether we're watching hockey and laughing or lost in thoughts about the past. .... >I see how I am > constantly dwelling in the moment past. It is all thinking and, I > guess, dreaming in the sense meant by K. Sujin. ... S: Yes, all this life and other lives, we're lost in our dream worlds. But even when there is such dwelling and thinking, there can be awareness. These are dhammas too. .... >The dead moment. Its > like the mind literally grasps and clings to past moments, whether > thinking about an event, a conversation, what was seen, or heard. I > can't grasp the moment now, but I do see how constantly I am back in > the recent or distant past. .... S: I think it helps a lot to understand the thinking as being real and the conversations, stories and dreams as being merely conceptual, merely imaginary. At moments of awareness, the story is cut momentarily, the dhammas are known for what they are. Then, back to the stories, on and on and on. .... > > I really like the Assu sutta you cited. A very profound teaching. I > take the Buddha literally of course. All the tears... .... S: Yes, I think it's meant bery literally. The tears in this life are mere drops in the ocean of samsaric tears. Metta, Sarah ======= #62396 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma teacher sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, --- Scott Duncan wrote: >What criteria might one use to decide > whether or not one might be a good teacher? .... I like your question and all the replies to date. Useful to reflect on. As Howard said, really the Dhamma is our refuge. Also,like Math, I'd be a bit wary of looking for the 'right' teacher with expectations of guidance and so on. I'm sure you're well-used to the dangers of the guru/therapist-on-the-pedestal approach. I think the factors of virtue, integrity, courage and wisdom are all important, but we may only learn about these qualities after a long time of living closely to someone and detailed questioning in the case of the wisdom. See the suttas I referred to in this message: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46520 I'll just requote the last section here as it's probably the most important, though I think that the virtue, integrity and lifestyle in general should be in conformity with what is taught. Those I have learnt and continue to learn most from live like 'open-books' without any hidden agenda. >4. Wisdom (pa~n~naa) “In this case, monks, a person by conversing with another knows thus of him: Judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is weak in wisdom, he is not wise. What is the cause of that? In the case in question this worthy utters no profound profitable sentence (attha-padda”n) that calms, is sublime, is beyond the sphere of mere reasoning (atakkaavacara”n), that is subtle and intelligible to the wise. As to Dhamma that this worthy talks, he is not competent, either in brief or in detail, to explain its meaning, to show it forth, expound it, lay it down, open it up, analyse and make it plain. This worthy is weak in wisdom, he is not wise..... "Herein again, monks, a person by conversing with another knows thus of him: Judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom (pa~n~navaa). What is the cause of that? "In the case in question this worthy can utter a profound, profitable sentence, that calms, that is sublime, is beyond the sphere of mere reasoning, that is subtle and intelligible to the wise. As to Dhamma that this worthy talks, he is competent, both in brief and in detail, to explain its meaning, to show it forth, expound it, lay it down, open it up, analyse and make it plain. This worthy is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom. "Just as if, monks, a man with good eyesight, standing on the bank of a pool of water, were to see a big fish rising, he would think: Judging by the uprise of this fish, judging by the size of the ripple it makes, judging by its speed, this is a big fish; this is not a small fish: - just in the same way, monks, a person, by conversing with another, knows thus of him: judging by this worthy’s approach to a question, judging by his intention, judging by his conversation, he is a wise man, he is not weak in wisdom.”< I'll look forward to further comments from other friends on this topic. Metta, Sarah p.s someone referred to the qualities of 'kalyana mitta' - see this and 'friendship' and 'judging' in U.P. Also 'metta' -------------------- #62397 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:42 am Subject: Joy = Piti ... !!! bhikkhu_ekamuni Friends: What is the Joy (Piti) Link to Awakening? The Joy Link to Awakening (Piti-sambojjhanga) has the characteristic of suffusing contentment, and the property of gladdening satisfaction. This Joy Link to Awakening manifests as mental elation, which can reach five increasing degrees of intensity: 1: Minor Joy, which can raise the hair on the body when thrilled. 2: Momentary Joy is flashing like lightning at various occasions. 3: Showering Joy breaks over the body repeatedly like sea-waves. 4: Uplifting Joy, which can be strong enough to levitate the body. 5: Pervading Joy, which is like a sponge all saturated with water. Vism IV 94-9 The Buddha once said: What mental fermentations (asava) should be overcome by development? If a Bhikkhu by careful & rational attention develops the Joy Link to Awakening based on seclusion, on disillusion, on ceasing, & culminating in relinquishment, then neither can any mental fermentation, nor any fever, or discontent ever arise in him. MN2 [i 11] In one who has aroused enthusiastic energy, there arises a joy not of this world & the Joy Link to Awakening emerges there. He develops it, & for him it goes to the culmination of its development. MN118 [iii 85] Any one convinced by understanding of Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha, gets an enthusiastic sense of the sublime good goal of Nibbana & gains gladness connected, joined and fused with this Dhamma...! In any one gladdened, Joy is born. The body of the Joyous is calmed. One of calm body experiences pleasure and happiness. The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. The concentrated mind sees and knows things as they really are. This brings disgust and disillusion, which enables full direct experience of mental release. It is in this way that Joy indeed is a factor leading to Awakening! MN [i 37-8], AN [iii 21-3], DN [iii 21-3] Further inspirations on the elevating & ecstatic quality of Joy: Feeding Joy http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Feeding_Joy.htm Joys Beyond World http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Joys_Beyond_This_World.htm Joys of the Flesh http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Joys_of_the_Flesch_and_Beyond.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. #62398 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma teacher jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > > I do agree with all that Howard has had to say but I would like to > add that your dhamma teacher should be a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni. > > Metta, > James > Hallo James, all It's possible to agree partly with you. Why should one have ONE teacher? I think more is better, serial or even at the same moment. And then is very welcome that one of them is a bhikkhu or bhikkhuni. We are not Tibetan buddhists where there is a exclusive relation to THE teacher and where in taking refuge in this teacher is even more important than taken refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha Once Martine Batchelor, when asked why Korean Zen-masters send so easy (compared with for example Japan) their pupils to other masters, explained: Korean Zen teachers are not attached to their pupils. No misunderstanding: My most important teacher is a bhikkhuni and I still visit the centre in Amsterdam where she is "in charge". But to me and to her it's not 'adultery' that I go to other teachers too for intensive retreats or dhamma-talks) Metta Joop BTW: Glad to hear again from you, James #62399 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:38 am Subject: Re: Dhamma teacher scottduncan2 Dear All: Howard, James, Andrew, Matheesha, Sarah, Thank you very much for your thoughtful replies. Naturally I've decided to use Andrew's suggestion of dipping the teacher in solution and checking the colour; being colour-blind this ought to be interesting. Oh yes - the new, serious me... I find, first of all, that, and this may be due to imprinting, I am influenced by the quality and depth of discussion in this forum such that it almost structures my expectations of a teacher - s/he ought to be equally compentent. Secondly I find myself almost naturally much influenced by the clarity and specificity of the abhidhamma perspective as it reflects on sutta teachings. And thirdly I have my own sort of gut (and possibly intuitive) reactions to have to assess. I appreciate the instruction to make use of my own efforts and judgements hence I know the decision as to whether to associate with a given spiritual friend has to rest with me in the end. That being said, I have met once with the person in question. I'll stop here because I want a bit more direction. Given that the person is a member of the bhikkhu sangha, is it respectful to come here with questions about this - about how to evaluate (in this case) him - and with some specific concerns? I do plan to speak with him again and I am assessing him, as I think I should. I'll wait to get your sense on how to tell of my meeting, if to do so at all, and on the best, most respectful way to continue to tap into your collective experience. This is not like buying a car, which I can do myself. This is much more important, it seems. With loving kindness, Scott.