#64600 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 10/22/06 6:27:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard again (& Larry), > > >The following mayerial you present is about delineating a self. The > >other material was about dilineating various other things, but, in > >particular it used the phrase 'delineate a delineation'. So, I don't > >see how what you have below clarifies that matter. > >My first question is what is meant by 'delineate'. Is it "to > >define"? My second question is about the repetitive expression of > >"delineating a delineation". My question is a linguistic one, a > >semantic one. WHAT those expressions are about is what I'm after. > > I found a passage that might explain that expression in a different > way. In fact, it's right on top of what I previously quoted. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.15.0.than.html > > "This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing > away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of > designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which > the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle > revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e., > name-and-form together with consciousness. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I thought hard about this and I came to the idea that "delineate a > delineation of" might actually mean "discern a manifestation of". ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The fact that 'delineation' completes the trio of "designation, expression, and delineation," suggests to me that they are close to being synonyms, and they amount to "(conceptual) definition", or "fixing in the mind as an idea". The doubling the term, namely 'delineate the delineation', is probably a strengthening of that, and may well be exactly the papa~nca that Larry suggests. But the meaning of 'delineation' aside, I am very glad that you have brought our attention to this paragraph. There is some really important depth to it, I think. And I think you have seen that importance. What I see as emphasized in this paragraph is the name-and-form/consciousness "vortex" (as Bhikkhu ~Nanananda calls it) as the fulcrum for samsara. ---------------------------------------------- > > Substitutuing that, we have: > > "Now, when there is the eye, when there are forms, when there is eye- > consciousness, it is possible that one will discern a manifestation of > contact. When there is a manisfestation of contact, it is possible > that one will discern a manifestation of feeling. When there is a > manifestation of feeling, it is possible that one will discern a > manifestation of perception. When there is a manifestation of > perception, it is possible that one will discern a manifestation of > thinking. When there is a manifestation of thinking, it is possible > that one will discern a manifestation of being assailed by the > perceptions &categories of complication. > > "Now, when there is no eye, when there are no forms, when there is no > eye-consciousness, it is impossible that one will discern a > manifestation of contact. When there is no manifestation of contact, > it is impossible that one will discern a manifestation of feeling. > When there is no manifestation of feeling, it is impossible that one > will discern a manifestation of perception. When there is no > manifestation of perception, it is impossible that one will discern a > manifestation of thinking. When there is no manifestation of thinking, > it is impossible that one will discern a manifestation of being > assailed by the perceptions &categories of complication. > > I find myself liking this translation. It makes a lot of sense! > > What do you think? --------------------------------------- Howard: I think it is a worthy contender! :-) --------------------------------------- > > Regards, > Swee Boon > =================== With metta, Howard #64601 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:48 am Subject: Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release nidive Hi Howard, > The fact that 'delineation' completes the trio of "designation, > expression, and delineation," suggests to me that they are close to > being synonyms, and they amount to "(conceptual) definition", or > "fixing in the mind as an idea". The doubling the term, namely > 'delineate the delineation', is probably a strengthening of that, > and may well be exactly the papa~nca that Larry suggests. That is what I thought so too. > But the meaning of 'delineation' aside, I am very glad that you have > brought our attention to this paragraph. There is some really > important depth to it, I think. And I think you have seen that > importance. What I see as emphasized in this paragraph is the > name-and-form/consciousness "vortex" (as Bhikkhu ~Nanananda calls > it) as the fulcrum for samsara. I like the way you describe the interaction of { consciousness -> name-&-form } and { name-&-form -> consciousness } as a "vortex" and as a "fulcrum for samsara". The Buddha describes it as a "revolving cycle". I think this passage is a direct slap-on-the-face by the Buddha on the likes of Buddhadasa and his followers. > > "Now, when there is no eye, when there are no forms, when there > > is no eye-consciousness, it is impossible that one will discern a > > manifestation of contact. > > > > I find myself liking this translation. It makes a lot of sense! > > > > What do you think? > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think it is a worthy contender! :-) > --------------------------------------- In addition to the way of understanding by papa~nca, I now have another way of understanding it. Regards, Swee Boon #64602 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu nilovg Hi Joop and Howard, I include here Howard, since he said: ------- N: The second stage of insight is directly knowing dhammas as conditioned dhammas. It may seem purely intellectual, but it is not. At this moment we cannot imagine how this can be, but the Buddha taught the conditions not for the purpose of intellectual analysis. It is the same in the case of khandha or ayatana or dhatu. These represent realities that are to be understood through insight. Nina. Op 22-okt-2006, om 12:48 heeft Joop het volgende geschreven: > The analytical way of the 11 links or the 24 classes of conditions > - A synthetical way (I don't have the best word, 'mystical' perhaps) > > On this moment my intuition leads me (again) to the second one #64603 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:15 am Subject: Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release buddhatrue Hi guys, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > I think this passage is a direct slap-on-the-face by the Buddha on the > likes of Buddhadasa and his followers. I haven't been following this thread, but the Buddha would never slap anyone in the face. What a horrible thing to say!! Someone needs to get a grip. Metta, James #64604 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:09 am Subject: Maana : Why I don't post much. scottduncan2 Dear All, Dhammasa.ngani 1116: "What is the Fetter of conceit? Conceit at the thought 'I am the better man'; conceit at the thought 'I am as good [as they]'; conceit at the thought 'I am lowly' - all such sort of conceit, overweening conceitedness, loftiness, haughtiness, flaunting a flag, assumption, desire of the heart for self-advertisement - this is called conceit." Vibha.nga 866-877: "866. Therein what is the conceit thus, 'I am better'? Herein a certain one by birth or by clan or by good family or by beautiful body or by property or by study or by sphere of work or by sphere of craft or by branch of science or by learning or by intelligence or by one reason or another causes conceit to arise; that which is similar, conceit, being conceited, state of being conceited, loftiness, haughtiness, (flaunting a) flag, assumption, desire of consciousness for a banner. This is called the conceit thus, 'I am better'. 867. Therein what is the conceit thus, 'I am equal'? Herein a certain one...causes conceit to arise...This is called the conceit thus, 'I am equal'. 868. Therein what is called the conceit thus, 'I am inferior'? Herein...causes self-disrespect to arise; that which is similar, self-disrespect, being self-disrespectful, state of being self-disrespectful, scorning (self), being very scornful, state of being very scornful, self-disdain, self-despising, self-contempt. This is called the conceit thus, 'I am inferior". 869. Therein of one who is better what is the conceit thus, 'I am better'? Herein a certain one who is better...places himself as better than others...causes conceit to arise...This is of one who is better is called the conceit thus, 'I am better'. 870. Therein of one who is better what is the conceit thus, 'I am equal'? Herein a certain one who is better...places himself equal to others...causes conceit to arise...This is of one who is better is called the conceit thus, 'I am equal'. 871. Therein of one who is better what is the conceit thus, 'I am inferior'? Herein a certain one who is better...places himself as inferior to others...causes self-disrespect to arise...This is of one who is better is called the conceit thus, 'I am inferior'. 872. Therein of one who is equal what is the conceit thus, 'I am better'? Herein a certain one who is equal...places himself as better than others...causes conceit to arise...This of one who is equal is called conceit thus, 'I am better'. 873. Therein of one who is equal what is the conceit thus, 'I am equal'? Herein a certain one who is equal...places himself as equal to others...causes conceit to arise...This is of one who is equal is called the conceit thus, 'I am equal'. 874. Therein of one who is equal what is the conceit thus 'I am inferior'? Herein a certain one who is equal...places himself as inferior to others...causes self-disrespect to arise...This in one who is equal is called the conceit thus, 'I am inferior'. 875. Therein of one who is inferior what is the conceit thus, 'I am better'? Herein a certain one who is inferior...places himself as better than others...causes conceit to arise...This of one who is inferior is called the conceit thus, 'I am better'. 876. Therein of one who is inferior what is the conceit thus, 'I am equal'? Herein a certain one who is inferior...places himself as equal to others... causes conceit to arise...This of one who is inferior is called the conceit thus, 'I am equal'. 877. Therein of one who is inferior what is the conceit thus, 'I am inferior'? Herein a certain one who is inferior...causes self-disrespect to arise...This is of one who is inferior is called the conceit thus, 'I am inferior'." In the end, a certain one finds it impossible to act without conceit. A certain one thinks a certain one can know where a certain one is and even then, this is conceit. There is no one who is better than, equal or inferior to and nobody to be better than, equal or inferior to, so everything just arises until it doesn't. Maybe I can post once in awhile anyway... With loving kindness, Scott #64605 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release lbidd2 Hi Swee Boon, Howard, Nina, It occurred to me that we need to look at the whole sutta before completely rejecting papa~nca. The Buddha very succinctly explained how papa~nca was the root of all ill but the bhikkhus didn't understand and so went to someone to explain his meaning "in detail". I think there is a place for delight in thinking just as delight (piti?) is an important part of jhana. That delight is what led to the abhidhamma pitaka and internet discussion groups. Larry #64606 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maana : Why I don't post much. nilovg Dear Scott, you give reasons why you will not post much. I hope you will post ofte, very, very often. Your posts are appreciated! All kusala is interspersed with akusala, and the akusala arises much more often,especially conceit. We all cling to the importance of self even when we do not compare. What do I look like, what will others think of me? If we think too much about this, we shall never post anything. No forum anymore, no opportunity to discuss and learn. I cannot help thinking of Rob K's example: not eating icecream lest lobha arises. I hope Connie will react to your post! Nina. Op 22-okt-2006, om 18:09 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > In the end, a certain one finds it impossible to act without conceit. > A certain one thinks a certain one can know where a certain one is > and even then, this is conceit. There is no one who is better than, > equal or inferior to and nobody to be better than, equal or inferior > to, so everything just arises until it doesn't. > > Maybe I can post once in awhile anyway... #64607 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:48 am Subject: Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > I like the way you describe the interaction of { consciousness -> > name-&-form } and { name-&-form -> consciousness } as a "vortex" and > as a "fulcrum for samsara". The Buddha describes it as a "revolving > cycle". > > Regards, > Swee Boon > Hallo Swee Are you sure? This is a typical Buddhaghosa-expression, not a Buddha-expression Joop #64608 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Swee Boon & Nina) - In a message dated 10/22/06 2:16:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Swee Boon, Howard, Nina, > > It occurred to me that we need to look at the whole sutta before completely > rejecting > papa~nca. The Buddha very succinctly explained how papa~nca was the root of > all ill but the > bhikkhus didn't understand and so went to someone to explain his meaning "in > detail". I > think there is a place for delight in thinking just as delight (piti?) is an > important part of > jhana. That delight is what led to the abhidhamma pitaka and internet > discussion groups. > > Larry > ========================= I'm not certain I'm following you, Larry. Are you saying that some people might consider all instances of delight to be instances of papa~nca? If so, I certainly agree that would be a mistake. One only need read the joy of awakening expressed by the Buddhist nuns in the Therigatha with regard to see wholesome delight! (Likewise in the various Ch'an/Zen writings.) With metta, Howard #64609 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Maana : Why I don't post much. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your very kind post. Now, I'm sure I just posted because of some other akusala arising... I keep reading of course because of the absolute wealth of learning here, for which I am very grateful and to which you contribute. (And just then the fear: was this statement motivated by kusala or akusala; I decide kusala since I truly do appreciate your contributions and know of your attempts to steer the middle road when it is a matter of praise and flattery versus gratitude). Actually, the gratitude is for the Dhamma, which you merely study and repeat with such diligent accuracy. There is often, these days, an overwhelming gratitude for the Buddha's Dhamma that arises and when it does I know it is kusala. N: "...you give reasons why you will not post much." A bit of a verb conjugation mix up, Nina. I was just trying to express a current dilemma. I'll post as often as I do. I'm sorry if the post you responded to sounded like a plea for attention - it probably was which demonstrates the paralysing paradox of it all! I was just noticing that every time I tried to post something lately I just stopped it because of noticing what went into the desire to post. A guy feels like standing very, very, very still. I can see where the surrealists were coming from: The story of the artist who walked around with very big shoes so as not to fall through the spaces between the molecules in the floor... N: "I hope you will post ofte, very, very often. Your posts are appreciated!" Thank you, Nina. If this paralysis subsides. There is so much to absorb... N: "All kusala is interspersed with akusala, and the akusala arises much more often,especially conceit. We all cling to the importance of self even when we do not compare. What do I look like, what will others think of me? If we think too much about this, we shall never post anything. No forum anymore, no opportunity to discuss and learn." Very true. I don't want others to think of me at all and yet I do the very next moment. Most perplexing these days... N: "I cannot help thinking of Rob K's example: not eating icecream lest lobha arises." Yeah, it's the same. Except I know that when the desire to post arises it is so often already conditioned by maana for me - I can tell, and it sort of sours the whole idea and I desist. I think I'm going through some sort of weird developmental phase or something. With loving kindness, Scott. #64610 From: Daniel Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:02 pm Subject: Re: Mind (nama and rupa also) sbhtkk Hi all, Nina : > Emotions such as anger, excitement, fear, which are nama, can > condition certain rupas that appear through the bodysense. Each > person can verify this for himself. Perhaps you could give some more examples of that? This issue leads to ponder what is causality, in general. If in every case that X would occur, Y would occur at a later time, would it be enough to say that X is a cause of Y? Or do we also need to add the condition that if X doesn't occur, then Y doesn't occur? Lets talk about heart beat rate which increases during\after a state of fear. Now, lets say that scientists observe that the proccess by which it increases is by receiving horomones, and these neurons are secreted by the brain. So, it is not the subjective feeling of fear which causes the increase of the rate beat of the heart. And it is not the subjective feeling of fear which causes the hormones to be selected - we find that mechanism to be the brain. So which of the body processes is influenced by the specific mental state of fear?? I have a certain premise - that we say that a specific mental causes a certain physical event, then it must be the only cause for that event. That this event would have only a mental cause, and not a physical one. Lets say that we test if telekinesys exists. Then we try to move a computer mouse with our thoughts, and check whether it moves. We will come to the conclusion that telekinesys occured if (1) we observed movement (2) there was some specific thought before\at the same time of the movement (2) there was no physical cause for the movement- like wind. So, do we not need to find something just like that within the body? The problem is as far as I know, it is not found... Yours, Daniel #64611 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:00 pm Subject: Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release nidive Hi James, > I haven't been following this thread, but the Buddha would never > slap anyone in the face. What a horrible thing to say!! Someone > needs to get a grip. That's not a literal slap. It's figurative. Regards, Swee Boon #64612 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:07 pm Subject: Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release nidive Hi Joop, > > I like the way you describe the interaction of { consciousness -> > > name-&-form } and { name-&-form -> consciousness } as a "vortex" > > and as a "fulcrum for samsara". The Buddha describes it as a > > "revolving cycle". > Are you sure? > This is a typical Buddhaghosa-expression, not a Buddha-expression I have had enough of debates with persons like you who hold to wrong views. Previously there was this Dhammarato guy, totally incorrigible. I don't see a need to prove anything to you. I have quoted the passage before. Look for it in the suttas yourself! I can't change a skeptical mind. It's beyond my control. LOL! Regards, Swee Boon #64613 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:58 pm Subject: Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release nidive Hi Larry, > It occurred to me that we need to look at the whole sutta before > completely rejecting papa~nca. The Buddha very succinctly explained > how papa~nca was the root of all ill but the bhikkhus didn't > understand and so went to someone to explain his meaning "in > detail". I think there is a place for delight in thinking just as > delight (piti?) is an important part of jhana. That delight is what > led to the abhidhamma pitaka and internet discussion groups. I am not sure I am following you. I don't reject the interpretation of papa~nca regarding that sutta. Regards, Swee Boon #64614 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release lbidd2 Hi Howard, H: "I'm not certain I'm following you, Larry. Are you saying that some people might consider all instances of delight to be instances of papa~nca?" L: No, my idea was that papa~nca can be useful if it aids understanding. I assumed that papa~nca arises with delight and as you pointed out delight can sometimes (but not always) be kusala. Larry #64615 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 10/22/06 8:36:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > H: "I'm not certain I'm following you, Larry. Are you saying that some > people might consider all instances of delight to be instances of > papa~nca?" > > L: No, my idea was that papa~nca can be useful if it aids understanding. > I assumed that papa~nca arises with delight and as you pointed out > delight can sometimes (but not always) be kusala. > > Larry > ======================= Well, the way tha papa~nca is typically used by the Buddha, it seems to always indicate a cognitive or emotive proliferation that reaches a point of harmfulness. We can delight in all sorts of things, some good, some bad. Delight that is the result of papa~nca in the usual sense would be ill placed delight, I would think. With metta, Howard #64616 From: connie Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:32 pm Subject: Re: Maana : Why I don't post much. nichiconn Dear Scott, Nina, We're off in the morning to see the kids & whoever; back the first. Better ppl visit me and go away than take me from my precious reading for so long! I'm not usually overly talkative in person (heck, my grandfather would call me Temiya) & I usually delete pretty much everything I do bother to write before it gets anywhere near the "send" key. Anyway, talk to you next month, connie #64617 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jwromeijn Hallo Nina, Howard Now I think the second way of contemplating D.O. can better be giben the name "non-dualistic" We should practice both ways, the analytical Nina described and the non-dual. Alternating Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Joop and Howard, > I include here Howard, since he said: > intellectually see the impersonality of conditioning. That is similar > to coming to i > ntellectually see the impersonality of "the person" using the > analyses by way > of khandha or ayatana or dhatu. > > ------- > N: The second stage of insight is directly knowing dhammas as > conditioned dhammas. It may seem purely intellectual, but it is not. > At this moment we cannot imagine how this can be, but the Buddha > taught the conditions not for the purpose of intellectual analysis. > It is the same in the case of khandha or ayatana or dhatu. These > represent realities that are to be understood through insight. > Nina. > #64618 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Maana : Why I don't post much. nilovg Dear Connie, Yes, when you have time. I thought of you when reading all the good texts on mana Scott quoted. You always manage to find other texts nobody thought of and you bring it in a poetical way. Nina. Op 23-okt-2006, om 7:32 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > I'm not usually overly talkative in person #64619 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:51 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 558- Compassion/karu.naa and Sympathetic Joy/muditaa(o) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Compassion(karu.naa)and Sympathetic Joy(muditaa) Sympathetic joy can arise with the eight types of mahå-kusala cittas. It does not arise at all times with these types of citta since there is not always an opportunity for it. Thus, sympathetic joy can accompany the mahå-kusala cittas associated with pleasant feeling as well as those associated with indifferent feeling. We should remember that sympathetic joy is different from pleasant feeling. The translation of muditå as sympathetic joy or gladness can mislead us. One can be appreciative of someone’s success also with indifferent feeling. Sympathetic joy does not accompany mahå-vipåkacittas since it has living beings as object (Vis. XIV, 181). It can accompany mahåkiriyacittas. Also arahats extend sympathetic joy to living beings. They have eradicated all akusala and good qualities have reached perfection in them. Sympathetic joy can accompany rúpajhånacittas (1). Sympathetic joy does not accompany lokuttara cittas since these have nibbåna as their object. *** 1) It can accompany the rúpåvacara cittas of the first, second and third stage of jhåna of the fourfold system (and the fourth stage of the five-fold system), but not those of the highest stage. Thus, sympathetic joy can accompany twelve types of rúpåvacara cittas in all (Vis. IX, 111, and XIV, 157, 182. See Appendix 8. ***** Compassion(karu.naa) and Sympathetic Joy(muditaato) be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #64620 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:57 am Subject: Why I don't post much. nilovg Dear Scott, I am happy you pressed the send button. It should not bother us that also akusala arises. It is so common. You touch on some important matters: analysing by way of thinking and right understanding according to the Dhamma. These are two matters that are different, although they may seem alike. ---------- Scott: And just then the fear: was this statement motivated by kusala or akusala; I decide kusala since I truly do appreciate your contributions.... ------- N: You give some good examples. We try to find out and we all do: is this kusala or akusala? This is not the way to find out, we cannot find out, because we are merely thinking of an idea of my kusala, my akusala. Only after the first stage of insight: knowing the difference between nama and rupa we shall understand what the nature of nama is and thus also what kusala is and what akusala. We think about it now, but the true characteristic of kusala and akusala as it appears is not known. If it is known we have no doubt. --------- S: I was just trying to express a current dilemma. I'll post as often as I do. I'm sorry if the post you responded to sounded like a plea for attention - it probably was which demonstrates the paralysing paradox of it all! I was just noticing that every time I tried to post something lately I just stopped it because of noticing what went into the desire to post. .... I know that when the desire to post arises it is so often already conditioned by maana for me - I can tell, and it sort of sours the whole idea and I desist. I think I'm going through some sort of weird developmental phase or something. ------- N: In the beginning when I learnt that laughing is motivated by lobha, I went through a phase trying not to laugh. Now I know better. It is not a matter of trying not to have akusala (I do not speak now of heavy akusala kamma), but it is a matter of understanding that all these akusala cittas are conditioned dhammas. We should not make a problem out of this. We can laugh at ourselves. There, we have mana again, well, it is just conditioned. That is why Kh Sujin repeats: everything is dhamma. We have to understand that what appears is dhamma. We may attach too much importance to 'our' akusala. I remember Sarah saying that the dhamma should not complicate our life, that it should make life lighter. Remember, among the sobhana cetasikas we have: lightness, agility, adaptability. Akusala is heavy, whereas kusala has lightness, it is without worry which makes life so heavy. Don't feel sour! We all want attention, we are social beings aren't we? It is conditioned, it is no problem. It is dhamma. The moment we see this, there is no worry, no sour ideas. To a certain extent it is useful to realize more that maana arises quite often. But we could also go too far and try to stop for example posting. Again, it is not a matter of preventing ourselves from doing certain actions. If we do not post we may find ourselves so good, we resisted mana. This does not help. We may try to find out too much, and this is impossible. It depends on the development of insight, beginning with becoming familiar with characteristics of dhammas as they appear one at a time through the six doors. But your examples are very useful, and do push the send button again. Very useful if you share your experiences with others. Nina. #64621 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to explain kamma to a newcomer to Buddhism? ( was Re: Books on Dhamma sarahprocter... Hi Kavee,(Phil & all), I thought you wrote a very helpful messge with lots of good links and good points on this thread #64353. --- Kaveenga wrote: > With regards to a specific situation like child abuse which was > mentioned in this discussion thread, I would not find it skillful or > appropriate to say to the abused that it is a result of past a kamma > unless I have direct knowledge that it is so and the abused is mature > enough and is mentally stable to understand fact that one is the owner > of their kamma, heir to…born of…related through…and have > their actions as their arbitrator [Upajjha tthanna sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html > ]. .... S: Yes, as you say, it's not always appropriate. I think that when we ourselves understand a little more about kamma and its results, there are more conditions for compassion for both the abused and the abuser however. > > [Anecdote: For seven days the Buddha distracted King Pasenadi from his > question as to where his beloved wife Queen Mallika, who was devote > disciple of the Buddha, was reborn after death. It was only on the 7th > day did the Buddha answer the King's question and said that Mallika > had been reborn in the "Heaven of the Blissful Devas." The Lord did not > mention the 7 days she had spent in hell due to the ripening of a past > kamma, so as not to add to the King's sorrow. .... S: Yes, this is a good example of when the Buddha knew it was appropriate to keep quiet. I personally find the reminders of compassion for those who behave badly to be helpful. This was in a recent extract from Nina's 'Cetasikas': "Someone may treat us in an unjust way by speech or by actions, but, when we consider that he will receive the results of his own deeds, compassion can arise instead of anger. Understanding of kamma and vipaka can condition compassion." I think it's a good example of how an understanding of dhammas and conditions leads to the development of the brahma viharas in a 'purer' sense and without any special trying with a sense of self. As for the bad experiences we or our dear ones may have suffered, don't we just make ourselves miserable by dwelling on them? It may sound unsympathetic, but really what's happened has gone and the only problem now is the thinking with dosa about them without any detachment and understanding of the present moment. 'It's gone!'. I like the lines that Phil read out to Naomi and which she picked up on very much in this regard too; "These thoughts of ill will lead to my harm, to the harm of others, and to the harm of both, they obstruct wisdom, cause difficulties and lead away from nibbana" (or words to that effect, he said), from MN19. Yes, it takes courage and strength to really see what causes us mental harm. ..... > There are many examples of kamma and vipaka given in the suttas but I > have not come across any example which mentions a kamma that bares the > vipaka of child abuse. Even if there is an example of a similar vipaka > and its causative kamma, a different kamma may lead to a different > vipaka depending on the individual concerned. Without direct knowledge > all one would know is that kamma may have had a part to play, any more > is conjecture. .... S: Yes, children (and adults) respond to the same treatment very, very differently. In a strict sense of the terms, the vipaka just refers to momentary results through the 5 sense-doors, such as moments of seeing and hearing. In fact for any of us or for any children, there are numerous kusala and akusala vipakas arising throughout the door. In conventional language we say that 'oh, this event was akusala vipaka', such as when we get sick or are stuck in traffic or whatever. But most of the problem always is the thinking with kilesa (defilements) on account of momentary vipakas. As for the texts about child abuse, some would they that the Vessantara Jataka, for example, was a classic case of child abuse. The children were given away by the bodhisatta, knowing they'd be wretched, beaten up and so on. In fact, in this case, it was done with the utmost compassion! I think kamma and vipaka are very, very complicated. ... S: Thanks again, Kavee, for your good comments and links. Hope to hear lots more from you. You're obviously very familiar with the texts from growing up in Sri Lanka. Metta, Sarah ========== #64622 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to explain kamma to a newcomer to Buddhism? sarahprocter... Hi Sebastien, I remembered that you also added some comments to this thread and were also having an important discussion with Nina, even if it ended with a koan for you! I'd like to see if I can pick the thread up at all. --- s.billard@... wrote: > Hi all, > > There was a question about how we can explain for instance the horrible > things > that happen to children. > > The Buddha said in Sivaka Sutta, SN 36 that all things experimented are > not > always the result of past actions, and saying that is a wrong view. > > I would like to know if my comprehension is correct : kamma is "only" > one of the > laws (niyamas). So we can experience things that are not caused directly > by > kamma, but but by other niyamas, like utu, dhamnia etc. These > experiences are > not the result of past actions. But in a certain sense, though, the > experience > is conditionned by kamma, as if there was no kamma, there would be no > "being" > to experience it. Is that correct ? .... S: Yes, indirectly kamma is a condition because without birth (conditioned by kamma), there would be no other cittas, cetasikas or rupas arising. Even when kamma is the direct cause, say when we are injured and there are unpleasant bodily experiences, still, kamma could not bring any result without the support of many other conditions. You gave the example in another post of a volcano erupting, I think. What is seen, heard or experienced through the body-sense at such a time is a result of kamma. However, as you point out, other conditions such as temperature are also playing a part. Some people will not be as adversely affected by others however and this is due not just to kamma, but also to decisive support condition - to accumulated tendencies and so on. The way people react, the cittas at the time, will also affect the bodily experiences too. Still, what is experienced through the senses is primarily due to kamma. As discussed in the current Vism thread, sometimes just the most obvious or predominant condition is given as representative, but this doesn't ever mean it's the only one. I've just found your post on earthquakes (#64508) and you say that your difficulty 'is about interactions between us "beings" and what is not "being", like natural phenomenas: earthquake for example.....' Yes, the earthquake rupas are conditioned by temperature, but whether or not we are hit on the head or caught by fire will depend on our past kamma at that moment. 'Being in the wrong place at the wrong time...' Like those affected or hurt in a war too - it's a result of kamma, supported by other conditions. Not everyone will be affected. Reflecting on kamma can condition equanimity when we hear or read about atrocities. I think the reason it's hard to accept is because we're used to think about 'events' and 'situations' rather than about momentary good and bad intentions which lead to actions and bring results in the way of momentary sense experiences. I hope this may have helped rather than just adding more koans to your in-box! Pls, let us know, so we can pursue it. Pls let us know exactly where any remaining sticking points are. Many people have difficulty in understanding the distinction between bodily and mental feelings and in appreciating that both kinds are mental. I'm not suggesting you do (but wondered from the 'koan' response:-)). Anyway in case anyone would like a review, pls check out these past messages from 'U.P.' Feelings2 – Bodily & Mental- see also ‘Bodily feelings’(in U.P.) 16061, 57325, 59342, 61028, 61064, 61294, 62664, 62690 Btw, I'm very glad you're translating ADL into French. Your English is excellent and you have a good appreciation of Abhidhamma, so I'm sure you're a good person to do it! Sometime, pls put the link to your website in the DSG 'bookmarks' so that we can easily direct French speakers there. Do post any tricky parts of the translation with the English for discussion as you did before. It's interesting and as you'll have seen, there are several other translator assistants here! Metta, Sarah p.s. Btw, Nina's translation of the Sivaka sutta and commentary can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13094 ======= #64623 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:16 am Subject: Re: Maana : Why I don't post much. scottduncan2 Dear connie, Scott. (N.B. Content deleted prior to sending) #64624 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:22 am Subject: Re: Why I don't post much. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks again for your reply. Very good points. N: "...We think about it now, but the true characteristic of kusala and akusala as it appears is not known. If it is known we have no doubt." Thinking about is not knowing. It's good to be reminded of this, for one who thinks too much... N: "...It is not a matter of trying not to have akusala (I do not speak now of heavy akusala kamma), but it is a matter of understanding that all these akusala cittas are conditioned dhammas...We have to understand that what appears is dhamma." Understanding, knowing - pa~n~na. Dhammasan.ngani 16: "What on that occasion is the faculty of insight (pa~n~nindriya.m)? "The insight which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Doctrine, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, a 'guide', intuition, intelligence, a 'goad'; wisdom as faculty, wisdom as power, wisdom as a sword, wisdom as a height, wisdom as light, wisdom as glory, wisdom as splendour, wisdom as a precious stone; the absence of dullness, searching the Truth, right views - this is the wisdom that there is." N: "Remember, among the sobhana cetasikas we have: lightness, agility, adaptability. Akusala is heavy, whereas kusala has lightness, it is without worry which makes life so heavy." Dhammasa.ngani 44&45: "What on that occasion is pliancy of mental factors (kaayamudutaa)? "The pliancy which there is on that occasion, the suavity, smoothness, absense of rigidity, in the [khandhas] of feeling, perception, and synergies - this is pliancy of mental factors that there is. "What on that occasion is pliancy of mind (cittamudutaa)? The pliancy which, etc. (as in 44), in the [khandha] of consciousness - this is the pliancy of mind that there then is." And, to the point, Atthasaalinii, p. 172: "'Kaaya-plasticity' is plasticity of mental factors; citta-plasticity is plasticity of consciousness. They have the characteristic of suppressing the rigidity of mental factors and of consciousness; the function of crushing the same in both; the manifestation or effect of setting up no resistance; and have mental factors and consciousness as proximate cause. They are the opponents to the corruptions, such as opinionativeness and conceit, which cause mental rigidity." I'm interested to see how cittamudutaa and kaayamudutaa are the opponents to opinionativeness and conceit. Conceit is stubborn, rigid and quite deeply subcutaneous (metaphorically). Do you have other references to this dynamic where 'mental rigidity' is opposed by mudutaa? Thanks again, Nina. If you are reading this then I did hit the send button... With loving kindness, Scott. #64625 From: s.billard@... Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:45 am Subject: How to explain kamma and ADL chapt 2 sbillard2000 Hi Sarah and all, > Yes, the earthquake rupas are conditioned by temperature, but whether or > not we are hit on the head or caught by fire will depend on our past kamma > at that moment. 'Being in the wrong place at the wrong time...' Like those > affected or hurt in a war too - it's a result of kamma, supported by other > conditions. Not everyone will be affected. Reflecting on kamma can > condition equanimity when we hear or read about atrocities. This is where I struggle to understand. I do see kamma as a condition of the painful experience, as it is kamma that perpetuate "existence" as a being and hence suffering. Still, I have problem seeing all painful experiences as a consequence of bad deeds. I think I have perhaps a beginning of understanding, please let me know if it is correct : all painful bodily feelings are said akusala vipaka, resultas if previous bad deeds in ADL chapter 2. But in fact, this is the citta accompagnied by this painful feeling that is (ahetuka) akusala vipaka. The very same (physical) object in contact with sense organs of 2 beings may therefore be felt as pleasant or unpleasant by "their" citta/vedana ensembles, depending of their respective kamma. Kamma therefore is not the physical cause of the event itself, but of its perception ? > Btw, I'm very glad you're translating ADL into French. Your English is > excellent and you have a good appreciation of Abhidhamma, so I'm sure > you're a good person to do it! Sometime, pls put the link to your website > in the DSG 'bookmarks' so that we can easily direct French speakers there. > Do post any tricky parts of the translation with the English for > discussion as you did before. It's interesting and as you'll have seen, > there are several other translator assistants here! Ok I will do, and I would like to know how many members of DSG read/speak french ? Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr #64626 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:28 am Subject: How to explain kamma and ADL chapt 2 nilovg Dear Sebastien, Yes, let us continue. It is a good subject and relaly difficult for all of us to really understand. If anything is unclear, do tell us. It is good to see a subject from different angles. --------- Sebastien: I think I have perhaps a beginning of understanding, please let me know if it is correct : all painful bodily feelings are said akusala vipaka, results of previous bad deeds in ADL chapter 2. But in fact, this is the citta accompagnied by this painful feeling that is (ahetuka) akusala vipaka. ------- N: Citta and all accompaying cetasikas, including feeling, are vipaaka. When we speak of citta which is vipaakacitta, kusala citta or akusala citta, the accompanying cetasikas are always included. I repeat again, there are four jaatis of citta and accompanying cetasikas. Jaati means nature. Akusala is of a nature that is totally different from kusala. The four jaatis are: kusala, akusala vipaaka and kiriya. It is very basic, but is there anything not clear yet? Then I try to explain again. ----------- S: The very same (physical) object in contact with sense organs of 2 beings may therefore be felt as pleasant or unpleasant by "their" citta/vedana ensembles, depending of their respective kamma. Kamma therefore is not the physical cause of the event itself, but of its perception ? ------- N: You are close! Instead of perception (sa~n~naa) I would use experience. The citta and accompanying cetasikas are vipaaka and experience such result. You say: , this is not quite correct. You think of a "thing" such as a hard stone, but when we speak of object, aaramma.na, it is not the same for the cittas of two persons. Here we have to differentiate between speaking by way of situations, and by way of cittas. Each citta experiences an object which is unique for that citta, it cannot be shared by the citta of another person strictly speaking. What do you think of this, am I going too fast? A particular kamma causes a pleasant or unpleasant experience, in the case of a particular person. There is no collective kamma. ------- S: This is where I struggle to understand. I do see kamma as a condition of the painful experience, as it is kamma that perpetuate "existence" as a being and hence suffering. Still, I have problem seeing all painful experiences as a consequence of bad deeds. ------- N: When we consider our life, kusala kamma produced the rebirth- consciousness in this human plane, and it depends on kamma how long we will live. As Sarah said, also other conditions are operating in our life. But when we look at a particular experience such as bodily pain, we understand that that citta and accompanying cetasikas is produced by akusala kamma. There are different kusala kammas and akusala kammas that produce different results in the course of our life. Tell me if anything is not clear. Nina. #64627 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] fear??? jonoabb Hi Larry LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > J: "As I understand it, there is no specific 'fear' cetasika (it's a > combination of different akusala mental factors of the dosa variety). > Would this perhaps explain why there's no particular treatment of it in > the texts?" > > L: I find it a little odd that it isn't mentioned except as bhaya ~nana. > I don't think it is any different than hate in terms of being a > "combination". They are both formations (sankhara). If it were a > combination it would have no own nature (sabhava). That would be nice > ;-) > You are right that it's no different that hate in that respect, but are you saying that hate gets more treatment in the texts? In the context of the development of metta, sure; but otherwise?. > It does make sense though that it is classed as a variety of dosa in > that the proxmate cause of both is injury or thoughts about injury to > *me*. Yes, fear is definitely related to thoughts of pain or suffering to *me*! Jon #64628 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cuticitta. jonoabb Hi Han I know this thread has gone a little 'cold', but I've not been able to get back to you (and others) until now. han tun wrote: > Han: Thank you very much, Jon, for your clarification. > > I understand better on the explanation on Object “A” > and Object “B” without their second sentences. > You are right. The second sentences were somewhat convoluted. I think I was trying to avoid saying that the *objects* of the cuti and patisandhi cittas are conditioned by previous kamma, because it is the *experiencing* of the object, i.e., the cittas themselves, that are conditioned by kamma. > > Object “A” taken by the cuti citta [and the patisandhi > citta and bhavanga cittas] of present life is the same > object as the object of the last javana process of the > past life. > Object “B” taken by the patisandhi citta [and bhavanga > cittas and cuti citta] of next life is the same object > as the object of the last javana process of the > present life. > > I have nothing more to add. > We can now give the subject a peaceful rest. I'm glad we got this sorted out. I should add that the explanation I gave was no different from the explanation that Nina had already given (but I just happened to notice a comment of yours on the CMA passage that suggested a different understanding of the passage). Now that we've settled this issue, what about the 'practical' significance of the point? I know you've given a lot of thought as to how best to 'prepare' for the final moments of this life. What bearing does this discussion have on that, as you see it? Jon #64629 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cuti citta and bhavanga citta jonoabb Hi Plamen Plamen Gradinarov wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Meditate on the second part of the quote: > > "Even the terminal thought (cutti-citta) did not travel. It had the > power to give rise to the passive or /bhavanga/ state. At the moment > of birth which marks a separate existence, through contact with the > outer world, the unconscious or sub-conscious /bhavanga/ state gives > way to the /vithi-citta/ or conscious mind." > Unfortunately the author does not give us any textual references to indicate where he's coming from. I'm reluctant to 'meditate' too much on what may be purely his own ideas ;-)) What can you tell us about the author? > So bhavanga here is grasped as the continuum of life and death rather > than only as a life-continuum. I would even say that bhavanga is the > continuum of death, because life is action while bhavanga is absence > of action, equipoise, nivrtti (nivatti, returning back to the absolute > peace of nonproliferation by means of papanca-upasama. > > On the other hand, calling bhavanga "citta" is counterproductive > (patipakkhika, in the sense of not containing the probandum in the > locus), because citta is what cetati, i.e., what is conscious of its > object, while bhavanga-citta - although allegedly salambanam, > possessing an object, - is not aware of it. > A citta that it has no awareness of its object? Where does this idea come from, and what does it mean exactly? Is it not a self-contradiction? Jon #64630 From: s.billard@... Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to explain kamma and ADL chapt 2 sbillard2000 Yes, I thought experience, but didn't found the proper word while writing. So i used perception in the common sense (not as sanna). When I say the same physical object, I was thinking about the light of the sun for example. The sun, or what we call the sun, exist, it is rupa or an ensemble of rupas. It can be experienced by sense organs and simultanously by two or more persons. My view was that the light of the sun may be experienced as a pleasant or unpleaseant bodily feeling, according to each one's kamma right ? In a sense these being experience the same object or rupa, even if the mental object is unique to each citta no ? Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr > N: You are close! Instead of perception (sa~n~naa) I would use > experience. The citta and accompanying cetasikas are vipaaka and > experience such result. > You say: organs of 2 beings>, this is not quite correct. You think of a > "thing" such as a hard stone, but when we speak of object, > aaramma.na, it is not the same for the cittas of two persons. > Here we have to differentiate between speaking by way of situations, > and by way of cittas. Each citta experiences an object which is > unique for that citta, it cannot be shared by the citta of another > person strictly speaking. > What do you think of this, am I going too fast? #64631 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cuticitta and bhavanga jonoabb Hi Han han tun wrote: > But the second point, whether the first viithi process > occurs only when the baby is outside of mother’s womb, > or is there any viithi process while within the > mother’s womb, I am not sure. If babies in the womb can react to stimuli, kick and suck their thumb, then it seems likely there would be vitthi cittas! ;-)) Jon #64632 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: > Hallo Jon > > Jon: "After all, it's not so much who is being quoted, but the merit > of what is being said, that's important. > As I have mentioned before, the Visuddhimagga is accorded special > recognition in the Theravada community, largely because it is > regarded as a consolidation of the ancient commentaries which are no > longer in existence." > > Joop: There is a big contradiction between this two statements. > If "who is being quoted" is not important, why then is Buddhaghosa > important? > I of course do not see these two statements as being contradictory, but as one being an exception to the general rule stated by the other. > The Vism is only accorded by some Theravadins, in fact there don't > exist a Theravada community. I don't accord it, that's exactly why I > don't know if I longer do belong to DSG I was referring to Theravadins generally of the past, not to any present-day Theravadin community (if such a thing exists). >> When there is this, that is. >> With the arising of this, that arises. >> When this is not, neither is that. >> With the cessation of this, that ceases. >> > Jon: A good quote (this passage is quite often mentioned here). But > I'm not sure what your point is here. > > Joop: My point is that this passage is the essence of DO and not > that's about a round. > But the quote contemplates the existence of a round of rebirths. It is only with the (complete) cessation of ignorance that there is the cessation of becoming, so until ignorance has been eradicated, there must be the continuation of becoming. I do not see how one can consider DO without also allowing for the possibility of a round of rebirths. > Jon: "Does the Visuddhimagga actually describe DO as a wheel and, if > so, in what > context? Since the point has been raised I think it's worth looking > at." > > Joop: OK I was wrong because I stated that without a proof. I have > not studied the Vism (I did read parts but the stype and the content > did not inspire me at all so I will not do that again) > All I can say is: > - Before some commentators got active, DO was described (in several > Suttas) as a sequence. > - And after the commentarors (and Buddhaghosa) got active, > DO was described as a wheel; the proof of this second > statement is the essay of Bhikkhu Khantipalo. > We are now discussing this aspect in another thread, so I won't say any more on it here. > Jon: "Does Buddhadasa Bhikkhu explain further what he means by 'a > process of DO beginning and ending in a flash'? What textual sources > does he give?" > > Joop: I will give a quote that follow the one I gave: > "Thoughts arise with great intensity and in a flash. Anger comes > about with great intensity and in a flash. In everyday life, when a > mind action occurs in a flash and generates suffering, it becomes a > dependent arising instantaneously. One feels horrified if he can > perceive such phenomena. If one cannot, then he will be oblivious to > them. Dependent arising, to put it in ordinary language, is intense > and lightning-speed mind action, which generates suffering, in our > everyday life. " > Do you really need textual sources for this quote? I don't > I agree that thoughts arise in a flash, but I'm not sure about the rest. In particular: - Is he saying that (single) thoughts that generate suffering are all 12 links of DO? Or is he saying that (single) thoughts that generate suffering constitute one link of DO? - I am not clear on his use of 'generate suffering', and which particular thought moments this would refer to. To my understanding all conditioned dhammas are 'dukkha'. Perhaps you could explain a little further, based on your knowledge of his writings. Thanks. Jon #64633 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: >> Jon: > I know what you mean, but I think we need to be careful >> about making any assumptions as to how permanent any such >> change in behaviour is, and whether it represents any >> underlying change in our accumulations. > > This is a very interesting point, one that I have been thinking a > lot about recently. While it is true that we are all beginners, etc, > and that there is not set or established character, it is also true > that we are in a more conventional sense at different stages in > terms of loosening the pull of the gross defilements, the ones that > rise in transgression. > > For example, except for the period last year during which you > fell prey to methamphetamines and were running amok on the streets > of Hong Kong, mugging passers-by to get cash to feed your habit, > you, Jon, have led a consistently moral life over the last couple of > decades. I say that with a strong degree of confidence, though of > course who knows? For you, a consideration of accumulations, of > anusayas, is timely, appropriate. I've come to see that for me, with > such very strong tendencies to transgress, it's a bit premature to > to study much about the anusayas, though they are very interesting > to know about in theory. Are you saying that an interest in developing sila and an interest in understanding more about the anusayas do not go hand in hand? This does not sound like the Phil I have come to know! ;-)) > For me, for the time being, first things > first. More consideration of sila before there is concern about > bhanava. I think the sila > concentration > bhavana progression has > been disputed here, but while I still don't understand quite what is > involved in concetration and bhavana, I'm feeling that I have been > too slack in establishing a foundation of sila. We agree on 'first things first'; we only disagree on what it means ;-)). Similarly, there has never been any dispute here on the sila, samadhi, panna 'progression' as mentioned in the teachings; but again there may be differences in understanding as to what exactly that means. My understanding of it is that sila is perfected (i.e., by the sotapanna) before samadhi is (i.e., by the anagami), and that samadhi is perfected before panna is (i.e, by the arahant). All kusala supports the development of other kusala, and so sila, samadhi and panna each support the others. I have seen it suggested that this 'progression' should be interpreted as meaning that the development of insight should be put on hold until sila has been more developed. I don't agree with that. I think both sila and insight can be developed without giving either a 'priority'. How do you see this? > Yes, self involved, > but it is very clear to me that the Buddha *does* give clear > instructions about dropping gross forms of akusala, in countless > suttas, and I think there is no need to worry about whether self or > lobha are involved here. MN 19, the two kinds of thought, is just > one good example of such a sutta. There are so, so many in SN 35. The development of kusala of all kinds is strongly encouraged in the suttas. But nowhere does it say that the development of insight (which is kusala of the highest kind) cannot begin right away, or that any give level of sila is a necessary prerequisite. In my own case, an interest in the development of satipatthana has been a great help as regards the development of sila. > I think when Acharn Sujin talks to the group in Bangkok, she is > talking to a group of people who have -generally speaking - made > considerable progress in overcoming transgression by the development > of sila, whether they see sila as coming first or not. It has come > first, whether in an intentional way or not. It hasn't come first > for me yet. > Ah, but I wonder which came first: the interest in satipatthana or the 'progress in overcoming transgression by the development of sila'? > Right. The latent tendency will be there. But the transgression > aspect of the kilesa may be lessened, the probability of > transgression occuring may be dramatically reduced by laying down a > foundation of sila. I do believe that now. > What you call the 'transgression aspect of the kilesa' may be lessened simply by hearing the teachings and coming to appreciate them at an intellectual level (as I think has been your own experience). > As for the bhavana that will lead to loosening the latent > tendencies, that is another matter. That is where acharn sujin is so > helpful in pointing out that if self or lobha are involved here, > there can be no loosening. So to paraphrase her statement "there > muyst be detachment from the beginning" I would say there must be > detachement at any moment of bhavana, but that is not necessarily > the case when dropping gross forms of akusala is involved. > As between (a) gross forms of akusala behaviour and (b) wrong view, the latter is the greater hindrance to the development of insight, and is to be feared the most. It is only our attachment to our self-image that makes the former seem the greater obstacle and the more urgent one. > I would disagree with this. Again, the net change with the > anusayas, yes, you're right. But people's lives can be dramatically > changed, and for the better, by taking the Buddha's teaching as a > guiding light in a more conventional way. THeir accumulated greed, > hatred and ignorance hasn't been reduced, maybe, and as you learned > in that drug craze last year, we never know when transgression may > arise, but there is an effect in terms of buildling a more moral > character on the surface, at least. And that more moral character > may be helpful in setting up conditions for deeper understanding to > arise, I think. No expectations re bhavana, but as for the lessening > of moral transgression, yes, there are expectations there. > But the better 'moral character' that is to be built in the manner you suggest here has exactly the same underlying foundation as the present not-so-good 'moral character', so the long-term prognosis remains unchanged. It is only by developing insight into the true nature of dhammas that any truly substantive change for the better can occur. > My tone has changed, hasn't it? Two factors at work here. For > some reason I haven't been able to find the DSG CD-ROMs. I'm such a > slob that they are probably under the junk in some closet somewhere. > Naomi denies tossing them, but in a fit of rage, who knows? :) > > > In the meanwhile, I have been listening to the Bhikkhu Bodhi MN > talks that Matheesha linked us to, and predictably enough being that > I am such an impressionable guy they have swung understanding in a > new direction. No, it's not a new direction. We're all going on the > same direction. Just an emphasis has shifted, or something. I applaud your interest in developing sila, but I'm sure the talks you are listening to do not actually suggest that this should in any way replace an existing interest in the development of satipatthana. > I will have to cut short our discussion, Jon, as I am going off > the internet for a few months. (See ps.) Always a pleasure talking > with you and listening to you (I've done more of that) and looking > forward to many years to come, unless you go on another meth- > amphetamine binge and crash a stolen Porsche into Hong Kong Harbour, > or something like that. > Stay tuned; always a chance of the unexpected ;-)) Jon #64634 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jwromeijn Hallo Sarah, Larry, all --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop, (Larry & all), > > Just briefly this time... Briefly: it was a rich one Thanks again Sarah A short reaction before i take a brake, short or long: I don't know. S: "Actually, I think it's possible that Karunadasa's comments have been misrepresented or taken out of context." J: That was what I was thinking about too, the texts I have read of Karunadasa this year were more careful than this comment. So: I don't need Karunadasa on my side. Concerning Nyatiloka's definition, it can be found in: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_n.htm natthika-diṭṭhi: 'nihilistic view' (a doctrine that all values are baseless, that nothing is knowable or can be communicated, and that life itself is meaningless), s. diṭṭhi. I think it's a rather good definition but Larry can be right in his statement that this is a western definition. S: "In effect there is a negating of the 'moral significance of deeds' in part, if not fully." J: It's no problem calling me a partly nihilist, a semi-nihilist, that so far from the middle way I perceive as the wished position: " Everything exists - this, Kaccayana, is one extreme Everything does not exists - this, Kaccayana, is the second extreme Kaccayana, without approaching either extreme, the Tathagata teaches yout a doctrine by the middle Depending on ignorance arise dispositipons …." (I know you explain this text in another way as I'm doing now. S: "My own idea about 'natthika-ditthi' and the other ditthis being discussed is that they all relate to wrong ideas and clinging to an idea of self." J: As said before: I think I hardly cling to an idea of self, but you will evaluate it on another way Thanks again Joop #64635 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu upasaka_howard Hi, Joop - In a message dated 10/23/06 2:55:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > Hallo Nina, Howard > > Now I think the second way of contemplating D.O. can better be giben > the name "non-dualistic" > We should practice both ways, the analytical Nina described and the > non-dual. Alternating > > Metta > > Joop > ===================== I follow you, Joop. Perhaps the term 'direct' or 'directly experiential' could be an alternative to 'non-dualistic'. All our knowing remains strongly dualistic, I believe, until sufficient progress is made. I think of the analytic approach as an "at-a-distance" one via intellect, and the other approach to be a direct one via attending to what arises in the moment and with ever-increasing degrees of developing mindfulness and insight. I agree that both are needed. BTW, as an aside, the Tibetan Madhyamikans make a great deal of the analytic approach as a tool (backed up by meditation - largely samatha I think). Their aim, especially as described by the Kagyu centrist school, is to use the mind as a deconstructive tool, step-by-step undoing the results of ignorance-based conceptualization. With metta, Howard #64636 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop > Hallo Jon Thanks for your reactions. A short and quick response. As I wrote to Sarah, I take a break now (I hope Sarah understands that brake --> break) Jon: "But the quote contemplates the existence of a round of rebirths. It is only with the (complete) cessation of ignorance that there is the cessation of becoming, so until ignorance has been eradicated, there must be the continuation of becoming." Joop: This is in german called 'hineininterpretieren'. I agree your description is one of the ways the formula can be used but I think the Buddha doesn't have one use in mind (your one), but a more broad and general formula. Jon: " I do not see how one can consider DO without also allowing for the possibility of a round of rebirths." Joop: Oh, yes, I can, see for example my message #64617 to Nina. Jon: " - Is he [Buddhadasa] saying that (single) thoughts that generate suffering are all 12 links of DO? Or is he saying that (single) thoughts that generate suffering constitute one link of DO?" Joop: I think your first answer is the correct one; only one point is, as often, said wrong (in my eyes): DO has 12 items (for example numbed 1=ignorance … 12=death) And that gives 11 links (and not 12): 1-->2; 2-->3; …. 11-->12 Jon: "- I am not clear on his use of 'generate suffering', and which particular thought moments this would refer to. To my understanding all conditioned dhammas are 'dukkha'." Joop: I'm afraid Buddhadasa didn't talk in a scholastic way so that this question cannot be answered by me; perhaps he did mean something special, perhaps not. Metta Joop #64637 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: cuticitta and bhavanga hantun1 Dear Jon, > Jon: If babies in the womb can react to stimuli, kick and suck their thumb, then it seems likely there would be vitthi cittas! ;-)) Han: I also thought so. The only thing is I was not bold enough to say it. Nina has confirmed that it (viithi) occurs shortly after the first moment of life, thus, in the womb. Now, you also confirm it. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #64638 From: han tun Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cuticitta. hantun1 Dear Jon, Thank you very much for your reply. > Jon: Now that we've settled this issue, what about the 'practical' significance of the point? I know you've given a lot of thought as to how best to 'prepare' for the final moments of this life. What bearing does this discussion have on that, as you see it? Han: The preparation for my final moments is to accumulate good aacinna-kamma (good habitual kamma) as much as I can, while I can still do it. Whether it can influence my aasanna-kamma or not at the last javana process is beyond my control. I am not afraid to face that music whatever it may be. Trying to accumulate good aacinna-kamma to the best of my ability is my duty; the result is up to my kamma! Respectfully, Han #64639 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cuti citta and bhavanga citta pgradinarov Dear Jon (all concerned) > What can you tell us about the > author? Almost nothing, except what is given at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratna/index.html and what is referred to in the Potter's Encyclopedia http://www.indology.net/biblio-7413.html > A citta that it has no awareness of its object? Where does this idea > come from, and what does it mean exactly? Is it not a self- contradiction? So far no one is immediately aware of the object of bhavanga-citta. It is believed that there is such an object and that it should probably be the same as in the wake states of mind, but to believe and to be aware of are quite diiferent mental modi. In the best case we can talk of a postapperception whose object is problematic or totally absent, like in the dreamless sleep. Or we can infer the existence of the bhavanga-citta-alambana, but never have a direct and distinct jnana when abiding in bhavanga. Kindest regards, Plamen #64640 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:19 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe 103. nilovg Dear friends, There are fifty-five cittas in all which perform the function of javana. Summarizing them, they are: 8 lobha-múla-cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) 2 dosa-múla-cittas (cittas rooted in aversion) 2 moha-múla-cittas (cittas rooted in ignorance) 8 mahå-kusala cittas (kåmåvacara kusala cittas) 8 mahå-kiriyacittas 1 hasituppåda-citta ( ahetuka kiriyacitta of the arahat which may arise when he smiles) 5 rúpåvacara kusala cittas (rúpa-jhånacittas) 5 rúpåvacara kiriyacittas (rúpa-jhånacittas of the arahat) 4 arúpåvacara kusala cittas (arúpa-jhånacittas) 4 arúpåvacara kiriyacittas (arúpa-jhånacittas of the arahat) 4 magga-cittas (lokuttara kusala cittas) 4 phala-cittas (lokuttara vipåkacittas) It is useful to know that when akusala cittas arise on account of an object, not merely one akusala citta, but seven akusala cittas arise in one process and this process of cittas can be followed by other processes with akusala javana-cittas. Each time we dislike something there are processes of cittas which experience the object, and in each of these processes there are seven akusala javana-cittas. Countless akusala cittas may arise on account of something we dislike or are attached to. There is no self who can prevent akusala cittas from arising; as soon as the votthapana-citta in the sense-door process has determined the object, this citta is succeeded by akusala cittas already, and as soon as the mano-dvåråvajjana-citta has adverted to the object in the mind-door process, this citta is succeeded by akusala cittas already. The cittas which arise in processes do so in a fixed order. When the first javana-citta has arisen it has to be succeeded by the following javana-cittas. The first javana-citta conditions the second one and this again the following one; each subsequent javana-citta is conditioned by the preceding one. ***** Nina. #64641 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:23 am Subject: Abhidhamma and Pratice, 3. nilovg Dear friends, We believe that a self exists, sees, hears and thinks, we believe that a self lives and dies. We believe that other people exist. This is a wrong view of reality. What we take for self are only ever- changing phenomena. In reality there is no ‘I”, no ‘he’. We spend our life dreaming about things which do not exist. Our wrong view causes us suffering. We have expectations about ourselves and others and if these do not come true we suffer from frustrations. We are afraid of death and we do not know what will happen to the ‘self’ after we have died. It would be a great gain if we could see our life as it really is—only changing phenomena. Then we could face with right understanding old age, sickness and death. The Abhidhamma teaches us that all phenomena in ourselves and around ourselves are only two kinds of realities: Mental phenomena, or nama, Physical phenomena, or rupa. Nama experiences or knows something, rupa does not know anything. What we take for self or person are only changing phenomena, nama and rupa. But, we may wonder, is the world not full of people, animals and things? We see them, we touch them, we live with them. If we see them as only changing phenomena, namas and rupas, does this vision estrange us from the world, from our fellow men? When we think about old age, sickness and death, we will understand that life, that all people, are impermanent. But there is impermanence at each moment, each phenomenon which arises falls away immediately. This does not mean that these phenomena are not real. Love is real, but it falls away immediately, and it does not belong to a self who could be master of it. We can have the intention to be kind, but we cannot force ourselves to kindness. When things are not the way we want them to be we may become angry, in spite of ourselves, as we say. This shows us that phenomena are anatta, not self. Anger is real, but it falls away immediately. Love, hate, wisdom, generosity, all these things are real, but there is no self which could be master of them, they are anatta. Does not everybody have his own personality? There is nothing lasting in a man, not even what we call his character. There are ever changing moments of consciousness which arise and fall away. There is only one moment of consciousness (citta) at a time, and it falls away immediately after it has arisen, but it is succeeded by a next moment. Thus our whole life is like a chain of moments of consciousness. Each moment of consciousness which falls away conditions the next moment of consciousness and thus it is possible that our good and bad moments today condition our inclinations in the future. Generosity today or anger today conditions generosity or anger in the future. A moment of right understanding now conditions right understanding in the future, and thus it is possible to develop wisdom. Although each moment falls away we can still speak of an ‘accumulation’ of experiences in each moment of consciousness, and we can call this character. But we should not forget that the mental phenomena we call character do not last and that they do not belong to a self. ***** Nina. #64642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] cuticitta. nilovg Dear Jon, this is usually the case, but as far as I understand in this special case the object of the last javanacittas is also conditioned by kamma. It is a very special object. Nina. Op 23-okt-2006, om 15:33 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > I think I > was trying to avoid saying that the *objects* of the cuti and > patisandhi > cittas are conditioned by previous kamma, because it is the > *experiencing* of the object, i.e., the cittas themselves, that are > conditioned by kamma. #64643 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:56 am Subject: Mind (nama and rupa also) nilovg Dear Daniel, I try to answer, but some points are above me. -------- > Emotions such as anger, excitement, fear, which are nama, can > condition certain rupas that appear through the bodysense. Each > person can verify this for himself. > D: Perhaps you could give some more examples of that? ---------- N: When one is very sad one may shed tears. When one is touched by a piece of music, one may shed tears. Did you ever feel weak in the knees before having to perform music or pass an examination? When you were frightened by sudden loud thunder was there rigidity of the body? -------- D: This issue leads to ponder what is causality, in general. If in every case that X would occur, Y would occur at a later time, would it be enough to say that X is a cause of Y? Or do we also need to add the condition that if X doesn't occur, then Y doesn't occur? ----- N: I rather think of conditioning factors. These are taught by the Buddha. Some factors condition another phenomenon that is conascent, or that is prenascent or that is postnascent. ---------- D: Lets talk about heart beat rate which increases during\after a state of fear. Now, lets say that scientists observe that the proccess by which it increases is by receiving horomones, and these neurons are secreted by the brain. So, it is not the subjective feeling of fear which causes the increase of the rate beat of the heart. And it is not the subjective feeling of fear which causes the hormones to be selected - we find that mechanism to be the brain. So which of the body processes is influenced by the specific mental state of fear?? -------- N: All these notions are science and this is a different field. One could ask oneself: what is the cause of the brain to behave in that way? It is not by accident that the blood is chased through the veins. Fear. It is mental. But there is no need to think of all such terms. Is it not enough to know: nama conditions rupa and rupa conditions nama. Understanding this will lead to detachment. That is what matters. -------- D: I have a certain premise - that we say that a specific mental causes a certain physical event, then it must be the only cause for that event. That this event would have only a mental cause, and not a physical one. Lets say that we test if telekinesys exists. ... (snipped) ------- N: This example I do not follow so well. I try to understand conditions as taught by the Buddha. For me this is already a very difficult subject. Good talking to you, Nina. #64644 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe 103. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/23/06 2:22:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > There is no self who can prevent akusala cittas from arising; as soon > as the votthapana-citta in the sense-door process has determined the > object, this citta is succeeded by akusala cittas already, and as > soon as the mano-dvåråvajjana-citta has adverted to the object in the > mind-door process, this citta is succeeded by akusala cittas already. > ====================== I have no doubt this is so. In particular, there is no self to do anything at all. Are there not, however, conditions, including cetana, that can prevent some future unwholesome states from arising, and conditions, including cetana, that can lead to some future wholesome states arising? And given that there are such conditions, do they not occur as elements of what we conventionally refer to as "helpful intentional actions of ours"? If the answers to these questions according to Abhidhamma or the commentaries or particular understandings of these are "yes", I think that is important to announce loudly and frequently, because that would inspire confidence. If the answers are "no", then that would be disheartening, I would think, and would raise all sorts of questions for many folks. With metta, Howard #64645 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:08 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind - What is it? dacostacharles Hi Sarah, I am swamp with material now. I have been trying to re-read lots of Buddhist material to get really started so my posting has been slowed. It is interesting, for the first time I am reading to collect the facts instead of to formulate an opinion, and it is tough. But I will be posting some results soon. BTW: I did post to the thread on teaching beginners about kamma. I have not seen any other threads about teaching beginners. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sarah abbott Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 13:30 Hi Charles D, --- Charles DaCosta TELE.DK> wrote: > Who Knows how the Theravadan School define the Mind and its functions? .... S: The closest I can think of is citta (consciousness). It is the (impermanent) cognizing or experiencing of an object. Seeing is consciousness (citta) Hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking are all very briefly arising kinds of consciousness. Sometimes mano is used which has the same meaning. This may be translated as 'mind', but it's not the Mind we are used to thinking of in a scientific or philosophical sense. Remember, there are only 3 kinds of conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away - cittas, cetasikas and rupas. How are we doing? Metta, Sarah p.s On the questions others have been asking about teaching beginners on kamma and so on, do you have ideas? I think the sections in Useful Posts under 'Abhidhamma - beginners' and 'Kamma- beginners' may be helpful. What do you think about them? ========= #64646 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:12 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind. The Pentad of sense impression. dacostacharles Hi Nina, I see what you mean. Also Feelings and memories are reactions to sense impressions. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina van Gorkom Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 08:42 Dear Charles D, Our reactions are kusala cittas or akusala cittas, and these are accompanied by volition or intention that is kusala or akusala. In the very brief summary of the Pentad, volition is mentioned. It is right to move slowly in all these matters. Do come back on this subject late ron. Nina. <....> #64647 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: some points on art philofillet Hi Jon Phil: For you, a consideration of accumulations, of > > anusayas, is timely, appropriate. I've come to see that for me, with > > such very strong tendencies to transgress, it's a bit premature to > > to study much about the anusayas, though they are very interesting > > to know about in theory. > Jon:> Are you saying that an interest in developing sila and an interest in > understanding more about the anusayas do not go hand in hand? This does > not sound like the Phil I have come to know! ;-)) Just want you to know that I have read what you wrote, and on the printed-out sheet wrote tons of stuff in return, but I really don't want to stay on this computer (the other one I use for writing isn't connected to the 'net) so I won't post it now. But thank you - usually when I say "I will print it out and reflect on it" I don't but in this case I already have so I can say I will do some more too! And I will write more too, on the back, and in the margins. And post about it with a progress report when I'm back in February, when I will be on the internet whether I like it or not. (I promised my brother to play in a fantasy baseball league with him next season - you are better off not knowing what that means - and since he has been doing so much to help my elderly parents, I want to honor that promise instead of breaking it like I have the past two seasons. Fantasy baseball requires being online for hours, pouring over statistics and whatnot) So this is my chance to stay off the 'net for awhile. I'll just reassure you by saying don't worry, I'm not thinking "ok I will lay down sila perfectly and then when that's down I'll move on to concentration and insight" I know it's far more subtle and interwined than that. There is sila and concentration with every moment of kusala - those moments can be appreciated. And yet....I'll leave it there! :) Phil p.s Hi Nina, in my e-mail box I am reading all your messages to keep developing my understanding of Abhidhamma - and the whole tipitaka, of course. p.p.s I'll also post a passage from Rob K that I like very much and which I think is relevant. "The path of the Buddha is not the stopping of contact, rather it is insight into the six doors (snip) ...I think we become less concerned about what the object is and when (whether?) there is kusala or akusala and the focus changes to the annattaness and conditionality of the moment - then every moment is so utterly perfect and instructive." (end quote) I think this "we become less concerned" can also be "we become more concerned" at times, it's a dynamic, like the simile of loosening and tightening the lute string to get it in tune. I'm glad that I am in a "more concerned" stage because it shows that this dynamic is at work - which conditions more confidence in the Buddha's teaching. OK, I will leave it there. Talk to you again in February. #64648 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:57 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe 103. buddhatrue Hi Howard and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 10/23/06 2:22:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > > There is no self who can prevent akusala cittas from arising; as soon > > as the votthapana-citta in the sense-door process has determined the > > object, this citta is succeeded by akusala cittas already, and as > > soon as the mano-dvåråvajjana-citta has adverted to the object in the > > mind-door process, this citta is succeeded by akusala cittas already. > > > ====================== > I have no doubt this is so. In particular, there is no self to do > anything at all. Are there not, however, conditions, including cetana, that can > prevent some future unwholesome states from arising, and conditions, including > cetana, that can lead to some future wholesome states arising? And given that > there are such conditions, do they not occur as elements of what we > conventionally refer to as "helpful intentional actions of ours"? > If the answers to these questions according to Abhidhamma or the > commentaries or particular understandings of these are "yes", I think that is > important to announce loudly and frequently, because that would inspire confidence. > If the answers are "no", then that would be disheartening, I would think, and > would raise all sorts of questions for many folks. What I want to know is what is the point of continually emphasizing that cittas are anatta and beyond "anyone's" control? What is the point of that? Did the Buddha emphasize that? Really, I just wonder what religion is being preached here. Sometimes I can't tell. It's like a foreign language. > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James #64649 From: "Plamen Gradinarov" Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: cuticitta and bhavanga pgradinarov Dear Jon, > If babies in the womb can react to stimuli, kick and suck their thumb, > then it seems likely there would be vitthi cittas! ;-)) Then we have to define what is vitthi citta. For Yoga-darsana, citta- vrtti are all operational modes of mind, including the uncosncious, like in the deep sleep without dreams (nidra = susupti). Such operational modes of citta are: 1. Pramana 2. Viparyaya 3. Vikalpa 4. Nidra, and 5. Smrti These are citta-vrtti, while citta-nivrtti is nirodha. If bhavanga citta is not nirodha, then it must be citta-vrtti. If it is niruddha- citta then deep sleep with or without dreams, as well as swoon, cannot be examples of bhavanga citta. Kindest regards, Plamen #64650 From: s.billard@... Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:49 am Subject: A possible nice tool for DSG ? sbillard2000 Hi all, Google just released a new free tool to create customized search engines : http://google.com/coop/ It allows to search on selected websites, and hence better results. I am going going to create a french theravadin search engine, I thought it may interest the DSG team :) Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr #64651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:18 am Subject: How to explain kamma and ADL chapt 2 nilovg Dear Sebastin, --------- S: When I say the same physical object, I was thinking about the light of the sun for example. The sun, or what we call the sun, exist, it is rupa or an ensemble of rupas. It can be experienced by sense organs and simultanously by two or more persons. ------- N: For clarity we have to differentiate conventional way of speaking: light of sun, persons who experience it, and thinking by way of paramattha dhammas such as cittas experiencing one object at a time through one of the sense organs. --------- S: My view was that the light of the sun may be experienced as a pleasant or unpleaseant bodily feeling, according to each one's kamma right ? -------- N: The light of sun (conventional language) can be experienced as a pleasant object or unpleasant object; not 'as' a feeling. but by a feeling. The citta that experiences this is accompanied by a feeling that also experiences the same object. Citta, feeling and all accompanying mental factors arise together at the same physical base, share the same object and fall away together. Is there anything not clear? If not, I try to explain in a different way. Sun in Asia is too hot and someone who is exposed to it may have painful feeling. Sun in Europe can be mild and it can be pleasant to experience. To be more precise: it is heat which is the object of citta and feeling. -------- S: In a sense these beings experience the same object or rupa, even if the mental object is unique to each citta no ? In Abhidhamma terms, when we use mental object the meaning is: an object known through the mind-door. When you say: these beings experience the same object, object is used in a conventional sense. But when we are precise: it cannot be the same object for the cittas of two individuals. It is much more intricate. When two people are looking at a tree, the seeing of visible object (colour, only what appears through eyes, not defining the tree) in the case of each of these two people is different. We call something a tree, but some parts may have an ugly colour, some a beautiful colour, we never can tell. Someone may speak harsh words, and then the sound is an unpleasant object, produced by akusala citta. He addresses his words to one person but several people may be standing near who hear the sound, but the person he addresses his words to may not hear the sound since he is occupied by something else. It depends on kamma which vipaka is produced in the case of a particular person. In order to understand the event mentioned above, it is necessary to consider paramattha dhammas, not situations. The moments of vipaka are extremely short, and after that we may dwell on it with akusala cittas. It is beneficial to know this. Nina. #64652 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:34 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 559- Compassion/karu.naa and Sympathetic Joy/muditaa(p) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Compassion(karu.naa)and Sympathetic Joy(muditaa) We read in the Gradual Sayings (V, Book of the Elevens, Chapter II, § 5, Advantages) about the results of the development of the divine abiding of loving kindness, but actually the other divine abidings, namely compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity, lead to the same benefits (Vis. IX, 83, 87, 90). These benefits are the following: * "One sleeps happy and wakes happy; he sees no evil dream; he is dear to human beings and non-human beings alike; the devas guard him; fire, poison or sword affect him not; quickly he concentrates his mind; his complexion is serene; he makes an end without bewilderment; and if he has penetrated no further (to arahatship) he reaches (at death) the Brahma-world…" * ***** Compassion(karu.naa) and Sympathetic Joy(muditaato) be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #64653 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:02 am Subject: re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 103. nilovg Hi Howard and James, ------------ H writes: as > soon as the mano-dvåråvajjana-citta has adverted to the object in the > mind-door process, this citta is succeeded by akusala cittas already. > ====================== H: I have no doubt this is so. In particular, there is no self to do anything at all. Are there not, however, conditions, including cetana, that can prevent some future unwholesome states from arising, and conditions, including cetana, that can lead to some future wholesome states arising? And given that there are such conditions, do they not occur as elements of what we conventionally refer to as "helpful intentional actions of ours"? If the answers to these questions according to Abhidhamma or the commentaries or particular understandings of these are "yes", I think that is important to announce loudly and frequently, because that would inspire confidence. If the answers are "no", then that would be disheartening, I would think, and would raise all sorts of questions for many folks. --------- Nina: The answer is yes, but it needs some explanation. It is understanding above all that conditions kusala, and good intention and also right effort follow along. The last two and also confidence in kusala, saddhaa, and many other sobhana cetasikas are indispensable. If we only think of intention or will but lack understanding, how could we know that it is the wholesome one? There can easily be wrong view of self who believes that it can create kusala cittas. There are different ways of overcoming akusala (see Nyanatiloka dict. p. 113, under pahaana who also gives the texts): 1: overcoming by repression (vikkhambhana pahaana), the temporary suppression of the hindrances, in samatha. 2. overcoming by the opposite (tadanga pahaana), and this refers to the stages of insight (personality view is overcome by the first stage of insight, etc.) 3. overcoming by destruction, the eradication of defilements by magga- citta. 4. overcoming by tranquillization, referring to the moment of phalacitta, fruition, when defilements are already eradicated by the magga-citta. 5. overcoming by deliverance, is the same as extinction and nibbaana. -------- Also if one develops samatha, understanding is indispensable. One has to know what is kusala citta and what akusala citta, otherwise concentration on a meditation subject will not be right. As for the other four ways, it is clear that understanding is indispensable. We have to listen, read, study, verify for ourselves whether it is true that akusala citta has akusala roots: lobha, dosa and moha, and kusala citta has alobha, adosa and that it may have amoha or pa~n~naa as well. We should consider them when they appear in our life and gradually we may also see the danger of more subtle akusala. As we read in the vinaya: he sees danger in the slightest faults. We come to understand that conceit arises very often. When the eightfold Path is being developed right understanding arises together with right effort: that can prevent future unwholesome states from arising, and can lead to future wholesome states arising, which includes supramundane cittas. As understanding grows also confidence in kusala grows. The way is being aware of whatever object appears through one of the six doors. In that way understanding can grow. Sati guards the six doors at that moment, Mara has no chance at the moment of awareness and understanding. We come to understand that whatever appears is dhamma, not a person or thing. ---------- James writes: What I want to know is what is the point of continually emphasizing that cittas are anatta and beyond "anyone's" control? --------- N: Clinging to self is so deeply rooted. Even if we think that we have understood that dhammas are anatta, we fail. Conceit is also a way of clinging to self. We find ourselves important. Don't we want attention? Is there not an idea of, I see, I hear, I think? We need to hear the truth again and again. The suttas repeat the same truth all the time. Nina. #64654 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:22 am Subject: Sila as a foundation sarahprocter... Dear All,(including Phil), I was listening to a recording from Bangkok in which some of Phil's good questions on sila and understanding were raised by some of us. First of all, sila refers to any moment of kusala (wholesomeness) in a day by means of dana, samatha, wise study or satipatthana. When kusala arises, deeds and speech are also kusala by way of sila. In other words, sila is always there with any wholesome mental states and that's why it's said to be the foundation for all wholesomeness. This comment of K.Sujin's caught my attention: "It's no use to be good without understanding" It was stressed that the point is that a person who doesn't have any understanding will cling to sila instead of knowing what quality sila really is and why sila should be developed, so in the long run in doesn't help in terms of the release from samsara. In other words, we have to know what the purpose of sila is and how "it's not for oneself". By developing understanding, we can begin to appreciate more and more that at moments of akusala (unwholesomeness), there cannot be any sila, so mostly in a day there is akusala instead of sila. Knowing this in itself is a condition for sila of different levels to develop, for the arising of wholesome moments instead of unwholesome moments. Of course, we'd all like to have less akusala and we're also bound to cling to having more kusala and to being good people. But how can the akusala be eradicated? When we (or rather understanding) appreciates that it's because of the idea of a self that there is such strong clinging, we can see that the first thing is to understand realities as they are in order to eradicate the idea of self. As I said, sila is of different levels and there's no doubt that even without the Buddha's teachings people can have sila, but "what about the sila of those and the sila of those with understanding?" as Sujin asked. After taking refuge in the three gems and seeing the value of the Dhamma, all kinds of kusala develop as a result of understanding realities. But for those with just sila without any understanding, there is no way to have better sila or higher sila, such as that accompanying samadhi or panna. Comments welcome! Metta, Sarah ====== #64655 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release sarahprocter... Hi Larry & Howard,(& Swee Boon) --- upasaka@... wrote: > Well, the way tha papa~nca is typically used by the Buddha, it > seems > to always indicate a cognitive or emotive proliferation that reaches a > point of > harmfulness. We can delight in all sorts of things, some good, some bad. > > Delight that is the result of papa~nca in the usual sense would be ill > placed > delight, I would think. ... S: I agree with this - papa~nca always refers to cittas arising with lobha, including those with mana and ditthi. So, any delight associated with it would always be 'ill-placed'. Of course, most of the delight, joy or enthusiasm we have in a day would fall under this category rather than the wholesome piti category:-). Great thread you guys have had with Swee Boon's excellent details too on the delineations etc which also puzzled me. I was glad to read Swee Boon's 'translation' and explanation and the BB note and detail Larry posted. Metta, Sarah ======= #64656 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Unreal Eternal Element sarahprocter... Dear Plamen, (Suan & all), --- Plamen Gradinarov wrote: > > So you didn't like my 'spaced out' subject heading:-). > > P: It is not a matter of liking; I don't understand the meaning > of "All Spaced Out". ... S: It was just a joke to reflect my state of mind when I wrote the post on Space;-). ... > > > As for yourse, 'the > > unreal eternal element' is an oxymoron as I understand the > terms.... > > P: You understood them correctly. The "Unreal Eternal Element" is as > much an oxymoron as is the "non-existing eternal concept". The > subject of the post reflected the second predicament. ... S: I think I find the first, i.e 'The "Unreal Eternal Element" the more oxymoronic of the two, lol. .... > P: He evidently meant only this. Rupa-kalapas are separate units. > Breaking one pot in the potter's house does not mean that all > neighbouring pots should also disappear. .... S: As long as we understand that all the kalapas in all the pots are breaking up all the time, then we'll be on the right track I think. ... > > > L.S. Thus in between all masses of materiality there are voids > or space, > > > comparable in principle to the open sky above the Earth. > > .... > > S: This is the 2nd kind of akasa I referred to in open spaces. Not > the > > pariccheda rupa dependent on the arising of the kalapas. > > P: I got the impression that LS wants to account for akasa only as a > dhatu possessing two main functions: (1) to formally delimit > (paricchindati) the material objects from each other (pariccheda- > rupa) - it may appear that this is the geometrical space, but it is > not, and (2) to serve as a particular locus, i.e., as paricchinna > akasa-dhatu, i.e., as a space that is delimited, paricchijjati. ... S: It may amount to the same. Isn't the open space delimited, parichijjati? I'm not sure. .... S: I read Karunadasa's details again which you quoted. Whenever I read his articles, there's always a lot I agree with, including his good research, but there are always conclusions I disagree with, even though I appreciate how he reaches them. Karunadasa: > What all this amounts to is that in the ultimate sense > (nippariyayena), the space-element (akasa-dhatu) is not different > from space akasa). Both are conceptual constructs with no > corresponding objective reality." ... S: I don't believe this is the right conclusion and to suggest that the commentators only included akasa rupa dhatu in the grouping of 28 rupas (paramattha dhammas) as a matter of convention, but not because they are anything other than 'conceptual constructs' is wrong as I see it. So too for the other anipphanna rupas, though I agree that they are a special category of 'not easily known' rupas (as the Vism puts it). Thanks again for the interesting discussion on various topics. Btw, I was curious about the discussion you were having with Suan on bhavanga cittas. The quote you gave is included in Soma's translation of the Satipatthana Sutta and commentaries as well as in the Sammanaphala sutta and commentaries as Suan pointed out. Perhaps it depends on the Pali version whether it is also included in the Satipatthana Sutta tiika? Also, I took it and the other passages in the section to refer to rebirth too (as you suggested) and also read the passage as referring to rebirth-linking as a function of bhavanga. After all, the patisandhi, bhavangas and cuti cittas are all the results of the same kamma and are identical in kind, taking the same object throughout life. Anyway, interesting points....thank you both for raising them and to Suan for his additional comments and translation. Metta, Sarah ======== #64657 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:53 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 103. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ---------- > James writes: What I want to know is what is the point of continually > emphasizing > that cittas are anatta and beyond "anyone's" control? > --------- The suttas repeat the same truth > all the time. This is what I don't agree with. How often do the suttas speak of this matter? Really, don't you think you are rather obsessed with it? An occassional reminder is one thing, but you don't stop writing about it! You know the suttas, which did the Buddha directly teach more often: anatta or developing the jhanas? > > Nina. Metta, James #64658 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:15 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Existence sarahprocter... Hi Charles, > S: Only 6 worlds no matter who or what. > > Perhaps you'd give me an example of a 7th doorway or 'sense'. --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > In Humans there is a sense of balance (not mentioned by the Buddha since > it > is unrelated to suffering). In birds there is a sense of direction (they > appear to have a compass in their heads). Sharks can sense, from a > distance, > the electrical discharges of working muscles. > > Would you really limit all non-human sentient beings to having 6 > senses .... S: Yes - only 6 doorways. Take the 'sense of balance', your first example. I think that what we take for this sense are many different experiences through the body-sense (especially in the inner ears)plus lots of sanna marking such experiences and thinking (without words). We know that when people have ear damage or brain injury, their sense of balance can be affected. After having concussion once, I recall how my 'sense of balance' was affected for a long time. It's very difficult to understand all the experiences of animals, but I think you'll find that they all relate to experiences through the 'body-sense', 'ear-sense' and so on, however different these are to ours. Others may be more expert in this area. Metta, Sarah ======= #64659 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Existence sarahprocter... Hi Daniel, --- Daniel wrote: > Sarah: > > When the Buddha taught about the 6 worlds, it was with regard to what > > could be directly experienced. As Howard always stresses, any existing > > dhamma outside these worlds is completely unknown and for all intents > and > > purposes doesn not exist at all for us. > > > But you just wrote an email about what lies outside the 6 worlds, didn't > you? > And I just wrote a sentence about it. And while you wrote about that > email , you > also thought about what is outside of the six worlds, did not you... So > perhaps > it does exist in some manner... No? .... S: Good points! At such a time, only the thinking about it exists. What is thought about are only ideas that can never be known. The thinking itself can be directly experienced. If there's no thinking about 'the world out there', then where is it? Gone. ..... > What is the definition for "the sixth > consciousness\the sixth sense"? What is the sutras definition, and what > definition would you give it yourself, to the specific way in which you > use it? > If I want to check if a certain phenomena is > cognized with my sixth consciousness, or not, what check can I perform? .... S: The sixth sense refers to moments of consciousness which arise through the 'mind-door' as opposed to those experienced through the eye-door etc. For example, now when there's thinking about the words in front of us, it's different from when there is just the seeing of the visible object. The seeing experiences the visible object through the eye-door and dependent on the eye-sense. The thinking about the ideas is not dependent on the eye-sense and can occur with our eyes closed for that matter. It is the 'mind-door' experiencing, the 6th group of consciousness. Let's keep this discussion going as these are important points to consider further. Apologies for this delay. Btw, pls remind me - did you say you lived in Australia? If so, where? I'm very glad to see your continued participation and great questions. Metta, Sarah p.s All, pls could everyone be sure to make clear whom they are addressing and to sign off to avoid any confusion. TIA! =============== #64660 From: s.billard@... Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A possible nice tool for DSG ? sbillard2000 Sorry I reply to myself but I have set up a theravadin search engine, free of spam and adverstising : http://s.billard.free.fr/dhamma/ I began to use french ressources only, but I added english ones as well so DSG members can use it :) I selected strict theravadin websites only, including DSG of course, but also aother ressources likes nibbana.com, access to insight and lesser known websites. Don't hesitate to suggest me websites to include in its index. Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr > Google just released a new free tool to create customized search engines : > http://google.com/coop/ It allows to search on selected websites, and hence > better results. > > I am going going to create a french theravadin search engine, I thought it > may > interest the DSG team :) #64661 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:39 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 104 nilovg Dear friends, Processes with kusala javana-cittas and processes with akusala javana- cittas can arise shortly one after the other. For instance, people have the intention to offer food to the monks. However, when someone has bought the ingredients for the food he is going to offer, he may find the cost rather high. At that moment there may be cittas with stinginess and then the javana-cittas are akusala cittas. Thus we see that accumulated defilements can appear at any time when there are conditions, even if one has the intention to do a good deed. It is during the time of the javana-cittas that we accumulate wholesomeness or unwholesomeness. There is no self who can control javana-cittas, but knowing the conditions for wholesomeness will help us to have kusala cittas. The Buddha, out of compassion, taught people the way to have less akusala. He encouraged them to perform all kinds of kusala, no matter whether it is dåna (generosity), síla (morality) or bhåvanå (mental development). He taught the development of the wisdom which can eradicate all kinds of akusala. There are different degrees of wisdom, paññå. If there is understanding of what is kusala and what is akusala, there is paññå, but it is not of the degree that it can eradicate akusala. When paññå has not been developed to the degree of ``insight-wisdom'', right understanding which sees realities as they are, there is still a concept of self who develops wholesomeness and abstains from ill deeds. So long as there is the concept of self, defilements cannot be eradicated. The person who is not an ariyan (noble person who has attained enlightenment) may be able to observe the five precepts, but there is a difference between him and the sotåpanna, the ariyan who has attained the first stage of enlightenment, who does not transgress them. The non-ariyan may transgress the five precepts when there are conditions for it, whereas for the sotåpanna there are no more conditions for transgressing them. Moreover, the sotåpanna who observes síla does not take the observing of síla for self any more, since he has eradicated the latent tendency of wrong view. Thus his síla is purer. He is on the way leading to the eradication of all defilements. ****** Nina. #64662 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:53 am Subject: mental rigidity. nilovg Dear Scott (and Daniel at end), -------- S: I'm interested to see how cittamudutaa and kaayamudutaa are the opponents to opinionativeness and conceit. Conceit is stubborn, rigid and quite deeply subcutaneous (metaphorically). Do you have other references to this dynamic where 'mental rigidity' is opposed by mudutaa? ---------- Here is from my Tiika study, Vis. 146. Vis. 146: 146. Text Vis.: (xx)-(xxi) The malleable state of the [mental] body is 'malleability of the body'. The malleable state of consciousness is 'malleability of consciousness'. They have the characteristic of quieting rigidity in the [mental] body and in consciousness. N: The Tiika states that hardness, thaddha, or rigidity, thambho, are terms for wrong view and conceit etc., or for the four naamakhandhas that exert themselves in that way. Text Vis.: Their function is to crush stiffening in the [mental] body and in consciousness. They are manifested as nonresistance. N: The Tiika explains that by crushing stiffness they manifest themselves by being free of obstruction with regard to whatever object, or that they cause the accompanying dhammas to be non- resistant (appa.tighaata) in that way. Text Vis.: Their proximate cause is the [mental] body and consciousness. They should be regarded as opposed to the defilements of views, conceit (pride), etc., which cause stiffening of the [mental] body and of consciousness. **** N: Pliancy (muduta) of citta and cetasikas perform their function in assisting kusala citta. They suppress mental rigidity. When someone is stubborn in clinging to wrong view there is mental rigidity, one is not openminded to the Dhamma. Because of conceit he may not want to listen to true Dhamma and thinks that his opinion is the best. Malleability or pliancy suppresses such mental rigidity and causes the citta to be non-resistant, openminded to the Truth of Dhamma. --------- The Tiika summarizes the six pairs of tranquillity, lightness, mallleability, wieldiness, proficiency and rectitude. They all assist sobhana citta and its accompanying cetasikas so that citta and cetasikas are alert, healthy and efficient in performing kusala. They are classified as six pairs, one pertaining to citta and one pertaining to the mental body, cetasikas. The Tiika gives another reason why they are classified as twofold. ----------------------- This is for Daniel: Note 65, taken from the Tiika: 'And here by tranquilization, etc., of consciousness only consciousness is tranquilized and becomes light, malleable, wieldy, proficient and upright. But with tranquilization, etc., of the [mental]body also the material body is tranquilized, and so on. This is why the twofoldness of states is given by the Blessed One here, but not in all places' (Pm.489). N: Thus we see that the good qualities of tranquillity, lightness etc. also condition bodily phenomena. ------------ Nina. #64663 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mind. The Pentad of sense impression. nilovg Hi Charles D, Op 23-okt-2006, om 22:12 heeft Charles DaCosta het volgende geschreven: > Also Feelings and memories are reactions to > sense impressions. --------- N: They arise together with kusala citta or akusala citta. In the case of javanacittas: the citta and accompanying cetasikas react together, but each in its own way; feeling feels in the whole or unwholesome way about the object, and memory marks or remembers in the wholesome or unwholesome way. Nina. #64664 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some points on art nilovg Dear Rob K, Scott, Phil. Where can I find this passge? Is it in Rob's forum? Nina. Op 24-okt-2006, om 3:12 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I'll also post a passage from Rob K that I like very much > and which I think is relevant. "The path of the Buddha is not the > stopping of contact, rather it is insight into the six doors > (snip) ...I think we become less concerned about what the object is > and when (whether?) there is kusala or akusala and the focus changes > to the annattaness and conditionality of the moment - then every > moment is so utterly perfect and instructive." #64665 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 103. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 10/24/06 6:12:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and James, > ------------ > H writes: > as > >soon as the mano-dvåråvajjana-citta has adverted to the object in the > >mind-door process, this citta is succeeded by akusala cittas already. > > > ====================== > H: I have no doubt this is so. In particular, there is no self to do > anything at all. Are there not, however, conditions, including > cetana, that can > prevent some future unwholesome states from arising, and conditions, > including > cetana, that can lead to some future wholesome states arising? And > given that > there are such conditions, do they not occur as elements of what we > conventionally refer to as "helpful intentional actions of ours"? > If the answers to these questions according to Abhidhamma or the > commentaries or particular understandings of these are "yes", I think > that is > important to announce loudly and frequently, because that would > inspire confidence. > If the answers are "no", then that would be disheartening, I would > think, and > would raise all sorts of questions for many folks. > --------- > Nina: The answer is yes, but it needs some explanation. It is > understanding above all that conditions kusala, and good intention > and also right effort follow along. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm very pleased that there is no hedging about the answer being "yes". An added explanation is, of course, fine! I certainly agree that intention based largely on ignorance is likely to be misdirected intention. Blind intention is certainly foolish, and I do not in the slightest underestimate the critical importance of right understanding in properly directing our steps. I also am, as you know, a great promoter of right effort (as explained by the Buddha). -------------------------------------------- The last two and also confidence > > in kusala, saddhaa, and many other sobhana cetasikas are indispensable. > If we only think of intention or will but lack understanding, how > could we know that it is the wholesome one? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. That goes without saying, but saying it anyway is only for the good. ------------------------------------------- There can easily be wrong > > view of self who believes that it can create kusala cittas. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Not only *can* there be such mistaken view - there usually *is*. However, when the mistaken belief in self is joined with the intention for "that self" to act properly out of love and respect for oneself and others - to do no harm, to do good, and to purify the mind, then step by step good can result. If that were not so, all the very good and kind but imperfect people of this world could achieve nothing wholesome or of significant value. All worldlings are beset by belief in self, yet many consistently good people can accomplish much good in the world. I think, for example, of the many saintly people who are non-Buddhists, some even materialists filled to overflowing with wrong view ;-), who serve sentient beings with love - courageously, unselfishly, consistently, and effectively. ----------------------------------------- > There are different ways of overcoming akusala (see Nyanatiloka dict. > p. 113, under pahaana who also gives the texts): > 1: overcoming by repression (vikkhambhana pahaana), the temporary > suppression of the hindrances, in samatha. > 2. overcoming by the opposite (tadanga pahaana), and this refers to > the stages of insight (personality view is overcome by the first > stage of insight, etc.) > 3. overcoming by destruction, the eradication of defilements by magga- > citta. > 4. overcoming by tranquillization, referring to the moment of > phalacitta, fruition, when defilements are already eradicated by the > magga-citta. > 5. overcoming by deliverance, is the same as extinction and nibbaana. > > -------- > Also if one develops samatha, understanding is indispensable. One > has to know what is kusala citta and what akusala citta, otherwise > concentration on a meditation subject will not be right. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Not while one is meditating. All distractions are akusala in that case, and need to be relinquished. What one needs to do is to choose at the outset a wholesome meditation "anchor", kindly pointed out by the Buddha, and the akusala that then needs to be avoided consists of any and all distractions to the meditation process itself. The right effort during meditation is not identical to that of other times. In fact, it is considerably more demanding. A background knowledge, is critical for meditating as for all other Dhamma practice, of course. --------------------------------------------- > As for the other four ways, it is clear that understanding is > indispensable. > > We have to listen, read, study, verify for ourselves whether it is > true that akusala citta has akusala roots: lobha, dosa and moha, and > kusala citta has alobha, adosa and that it may have amoha or pa~n~naa > as well. We should consider them when they appear in our life and > gradually we may also see the danger of more subtle akusala. As we > read in the vinaya: he sees danger in the slightest faults. We come > to understand that conceit arises very often. > > When the eightfold Path is being developed right understanding arises > together with right effort: that can prevent future unwholesome > states from arising, and can lead to future wholesome states arising, > which includes supramundane cittas. > As understanding grows also confidence in kusala grows. > The way is being aware of whatever object appears through one of the > six doors. In that way understanding can grow. Sati guards the six > doors at that moment, Mara has no chance at the moment of awareness > and understanding. We come to understand that whatever appears is > dhamma, not a person or thing. > ---------- > James writes: What I want to know is what is the point of continually > emphasizing > that cittas are anatta and beyond "anyone's" control? > --------- > N: Clinging to self is so deeply rooted. Even if we think that we > have understood that dhammas are anatta, we fail. Conceit is also a > way of clinging to self. We find ourselves important. Don't we want > attention? Is there not an idea of, I see, I hear, I think? We need > to hear the truth again and again. The suttas repeat the same truth > all the time. > > Nina. > > > ====================== With metta, Howard #64666 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 103. nilovg Hi James, he often taught jhanas, but he did not teach jhana for the sake of jhana. The monks had to develop insight as well, otherwise they would take jhana for self and could not attain enlightenment. In the Kindred Sayings IV, we find his teaching of anatta time and again. It is the core of his teachings, we do not find this in other religions. For example, Ch 3, on the sick man, that the Budha went to see a sick monk who was of no reputation (we see so much the Buddha's compassion). He asked the monk what the purity of life in the Dhamma as taught by the exalted one was. The monk answered: passion and the destruction of passion. The Buddha then asked him whether the eye is permanent or impermanent, and so for the other senses. The monk answered: ------- Middle Length Sayings, no 148, the Six Sixes: These are just a few examples. Nina. Op 24-okt-2006, om 12:53 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > You know the suttas, which did the Buddha > directly teach more often: anatta or developing the jhanas? #64667 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:00 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Practice 4. nilovg Dear friends, We do not become estranged from life and from our fellowmen when we see both ourselves and others as nama and rupa which are impermanent and not self. We would rather that there is no impermanence, no death, but that is not possible. It is better to know the truth about life than to mislead ourselves with regard to the truth. When there is less clinging to the concept of self we will be able to act with more unselfishness and thus we can be of more help to others and we can perform our duties with more wholesomeness. In reality there are only nama and rupa which are impermanent and not self. Nama experiences or knows something, rupa does not know anything. Seeing, hearing, thinking, love, hate, these are all experiences, they are namas. Sound, hardness or softness are rupas, they do not experience anything. Both nama and rupa are realities which we experience time and again, they are real for everybody. We do not have to name them in order to experience them; they can be directly experienced when they present themselves, at this moment. We see and hear the whole day, but we know so little about these realities. Seeing is an experience through the eyes and it is different from thinking of what we see. Hearing is an experience through the ears and it is different from thinking of what we hear. Since the different moments of consciousness succeed one another so rapidly we believe that we can see and hear or see and think all at the same time. However, there is only one moment of consciousness at a time which experiences one object and then falls away immediately. We are attached to all namas and rupas. We are, for example, attached to seeing and to what we see, but what is actually seeing and what is visible object? We should know seeing and visible object as they are. We think that we are a person but seeing sees only what appears through the eyes: the visible. A person could not contact the eye-sense. When we pay attention to the shape and form of something there is no seeing, but thinking. Thinking of a person is another moment of consciousness which cannot occur at the same time as seeing. ******* Nina. #64668 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 103. buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > he often taught jhanas, but he did not teach jhana for the sake of > jhana. The monks had to develop insight as well, otherwise they would > take jhana for self and could not attain enlightenment. Ah, you gave Howard a direct answer but you didn't give me one. I asked which did the Buddha teach more often: anatta or the value of cultivating the jhanas? (I don't have my Tipitaka right now but there is a simple way to find this out: Go to the index in each book, see how often anatta is mentioned and how often jhana is mentioned. Count them up and let me know. Which one did the Buddha teach more often?) The reason I ask this question (I'm not like Jon, I give the reasons for my questions ;-)), is because I feel that you place too much emphasis on anatta (more emphasis than should be placed). When you stress anatta over Right Speech, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, when everything is anatta, anatta, anatta, then the reader will develop a sense of helplessness and apathy toward the Buddha's teaching (as Howard has pointed out). I go so far as to say that you aren't even teaching the Buddha's teaching; you are teaching something else entirely. I would say that you are more an Existentialist than a Buddhist. An Existentialist believes that life is absurd and has no meaning and that we have absolutely no control over the situation to make it any better; sound familiar? Does to me- sounds like all of your teachings. Does anatta have a place in the Buddha's teaching? Yes, of course it does- but only for those who are very, very advanced in insight and are close to surrendering craving. For the rest of us, it can give the wrong impression. That is why I say the Buddha didn't teach anatta as often as he taught jhana (and the Noble Eightfold Path, even). Metta, James #64669 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma in Practice 4. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 10/24/06 1:10:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear friends, > > We do not become estranged from life and from our fellowmen when we > see both ourselves and others as nama and rupa which are impermanent > and not self. ============================= I agree with every word (of your entire piece, Nina, and not just what I copied above), and I think it is very well said! Another matter that I think is very deservant of elucidation and elaboration, and which is keenly needed but dealt with almost not at all (by anyone), is the relationship between conventional (or figurative, as I would put it) speech, and ultimate (or literal, as I would put it) speech. In the process, doing so would clarify each, would demonstrate the value and necessity of each, and would show the special care in understanding that needs to be taken in understanding each so as not to conflate them, doing a disservice to each. This, of course, would be a *major* undertaking, and one which I wouldn't dare to embark upon myself. With metta, Howard #64670 From: "matheesha" Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:36 pm Subject: intelligence by ajahn brahm matheesha333 Hi everyone, Interesting talk on intelligence: http://www.bswa.org/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?cid=4&lid=468 with metta Matheesha #64671 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:06 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,109 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 109. Here it may be said: 'We admit that. But ignorance is reprehensible and has entirely undesirable fruit. How then can it rightly be a condition for formations of merit and of the imperturbable? Sugarcane does not grow from [bitter] nimba seeds'. Why should it not be right? For in the world [that is, even among thinkers outside the Dispensation it is recognized that] Both as opposed and unopposed A state's conditions may be found, And both as like and unlike too: That does not make it their 'result'. ******************** 109. etthaaha, eva.m santepi ekantaani.t.thaphalaaya saavajjaaya avijjaaya katha.m pu~n~naane~njaabhisa"nkhaarapaccayatta.m yujjati. na hi nimbabiijato ucchu uppajjatiiti. katha.m na yujjissati. lokasmi~nhi, viruddho caaviruddho ca, sadisaasadiso tathaa. dhammaana.m paccayo siddho, vipaakaa eva te ca na.. #64672 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:35 pm Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu ken_aitch > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Jon: " - Is he [Buddhadasa] saying that (single) thoughts that > generate suffering are all 12 links of DO? > Or is he saying that (single) thoughts that generate suffering > constitute one link of DO?" > Joop: I think your first answer is the correct one; Hi all, Arguments put forward by Buddhadasa, Batchelor, Thanissaro and others are confusing. When they tell us about 'unbound consciousness,' 'samsara and nibbana being the same' and 'rebirth not being taught by the Buddha,' we might be less confused if we knew their overall perspective on the Dhamma. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it is as follows: The past has never existed and the future will never exist - Dependent Origination teaches the existence of only one, all encompassing, moment. Because our minds are stressed, however, we cannot see this. When it is stressed, consciousness is "bound" (limited, restrained, conditioned) to seeing only see object at a time. When we see only one object at a time we get the false impression of many separate times (or moments) belonging to the past, present and future. Ideally, consciousness can become "unbound" (unconditioned), and when that happens everything in samsara is known at once. That is why nibbana is ultimately the same as samsara - enlightenment is just a matter of seeing all of samsara at once. In order to unbind our consciousness we need to free it from stress. Stress occurs whenever we think about our own existence or non-existence. Therefore, when the Buddha taught anatta he did not mean there was no self, he simply meant we should not think about self. That seems to be the overall view of the Dhamma being promoted by these so-called "Buddhist teachers." Corrections welcome! Ken H #64673 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:30 pm Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > > wrote: > > > > > > > Jon: " - Is he [Buddhadasa] saying that (single) thoughts that > > generate suffering are all 12 links of DO? > > Or is he saying that (single) thoughts that generate suffering > > constitute one link of DO?" > > Joop: I think your first answer is the correct one; > > Hi all, > > > Arguments put forward by Buddhadasa, Batchelor, Thanissaro and others > are confusing. I have read about the interpretation that all twelve links of D.O. occur in one thought moment. I have also read about the interpretation that all eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path occur in one thought moment, which is even more preposterous (don't you believe that one? ;-)) However, I haven't read about these other things you propose like nibbana is being able to see samsara all at once, and the like. Maybe you could quote some relevant texts- I would be interested to read about that. Metta, James #64674 From: "Leo" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: some points on art leoaive --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Leo, > > --- Leo wrote: > > > Hi > > > > It is also interesting, that Dhammapada is saying about Arahant is > > staying in village or forest. It does not say that arahant is staying > > in city. It looks to me it is too ascetical. I mean do not have trees > > and walk around everywhere inside of city walls. > .... > S: I don't see any significance in it. Even today, around the main > Buddhist holy places in India (as found in the scriptures), there are just > forests and villages. Take Jetavana at Savatthi where the Buddha and > arahants spent considerable amounts of time - even today, just small > hamlets around, no city for hundreds of kms and still no proper roads. > > If we think there cannot be any development of satipatthana or any > vipassana unless we're sitting under a tree or outside a city, we're in > trouble, I think. Not the Middle Way. > > How about you? Did you say you were living in Hawaii now? Does it make any > difference whether you are in the city, in the hills or on the beach > there? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Hi Yes, I am in Hawaii and for me I feel better to meditate in natural set like trees or park. I feel it is boring to meditate in some strange places with some drunk next to you or some other kind of sportsmen hitting the wall by rubber ball with the full force, countless time. In that case your home is more meditative. So if you do not like to sit at home and listen some noise, then you come to conclusion that park is better, especially if it is not on weekend. Otherwise even park has loud music and so on. In Hawaii it is boring to seat at home, so park at the right time I like the best. With metta Leo > #64675 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:03 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 560- Compassion/karu.naa and Sympathetic Joy/muditaa(q) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Compassion(karu.naa)and Sympathetic Joy(muditaa)contd We read in the Visuddhimagga (IX, 97) with regard to the four “divine abidings” that loving kindness is developed to ward off ill-will, compassion to ward off cruelty, sympathetic joy to ward off aversion and equanimity to ward off greed or resentment. However, we should realize that defilements cannot be eradicated unless the true nature of realities has been realized. All conditioned realities, even the most excellent qualities, are impermanent, dukkha and anattå. We read in the Gradual Sayings (V, Book of the Elevens, Chapter II, § 6, 345) about a monk who has developed the four divine abidings: * "Then he thus ponders: This heart’s release by amity… by compassion… by sympathy… by equanimity is just a higher product; it is produced by higher thought. Then he comes to know: Now even that which is a higher product, produced by higher thought, is impermanent, of a nature to end. Fixed on that idea he wins destruction of the cankers; or if not that, yet by his passion for dhamma, by his delight in dhamma, by utterly making and end of the five fetters belonging to this world, he is reborn spontaneously, and in that state passes utterly away, never to return (hither) from that world." * ***** Compassion(karu.naa) and Sympathetic Joy(muditaato) be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #64676 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Maana : Why I don't post much. sarahprocter... Dear Scott & Nina, Thx Scott for the great quote on the 9 kinds of maana (conceit) #64604. Sometimes we forget that even when the idea is correct, for example, we really may be inferior in some regard and compare 'correctly', it's still conceit. I believe it says that it is this 'true' kind of comparing or thinking that is eradicated last, but I haven't got the text in front of me to check. Also, sometimes we forget how subtle conceit can be - there doesn't have to be any obvious comparison involved at all - just an 'impression' of "Oh, that man went out without his umbrella" or "he's not wearing a helmet on the bicycle".....the understanding is that we wouldn't be so foolish and would do better. As you put it: Scott:> 877. Therein of one who is inferior what is the conceit thus, 'I am > inferior'? Herein a certain one who is inferior...causes > self-disrespect to arise...This is of one who is inferior is called > the conceit thus, 'I am inferior'." > > In the end, a certain one finds it impossible to act without conceit. > A certain one thinks a certain one can know where a certain one is > and even then, this is conceit. There is no one who is better than, > equal or inferior to and nobody to be better than, equal or inferior > to, so everything just arises until it doesn't. .... S: Better to know!! **** Also, I liked your other quotes on 'understanding' and 'pliancy of citta and cetasikas' in contrast to conceit. A little more in U.P. under 'Pliancy' and 'Pairs-6', I think. Pls keep adding your helpful quotes. Btw, she mentioned off-list sth about 'the echo in a quote from the Baahiya cy' you'd asked about. Perhaps you can elaborate and quote for us all as she's gone on a trip. Could be more interesting than the 'zany' blank one;:-)). Let's read your discussions! Nina, I liked your post to Scott and the examples of thinking one shouldn't laugh or eat ice-cream:-) The wrong views apparent in these examples are funny, but they can lead to serious consequences. For example, I've known several people who've got the idea that they should be serious and not lead their ordinary home lives after going on retreats, for example, even though they aren't ordained or anything. Sometimes the strong views along these directions and ideas about particular ways of living have led to broken up families and sad consequences for partners and children. Often the friends become impossible to talk to and they may even think they should avoid other people too. I think Scott was just joking about not posting because of the conceit, but it may be true that some people think they shouldn't post or speak if there's any akusala arising or if they make any errors and can't delete them. Again, lots of maana at work and as you said, no one would post anything here if we all thought like this! As you pointed out, there's going to be akusala involved whichever way we turn. If we're too concerned about it, it shows the strong clinging to 'self' rather than any understanding and detachment of what is appearing. I liked K.Sujin's reminder one time about seeing such akusala and knowing how many errors we make shows how great the Buddha's wisdom was and we can respect this all the more. Metta, Sarah ========= #64677 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:53 am Subject: re:Abhidhamma in Practice 4, language nilovg Hi Howard, ----------- H: Another matter that I think is very deservant of elucidation and elaboration, and which is keenly needed but dealt with almost not at all (by anyone), is the relationship between conventional (or figurative, as I would put it) speech, and ultimate (or literal, as I would put it) speech. In the process, doing so would clarify each, would demonstrate the value and necessity of each, and would show the special care in understanding that needs to be taken in understanding each so as not to conflate them, doing a disservice to each. ------- N: This is exactly what Lodewijk thinks. You touched on this before, speaking of mixing the conventional langugae and the language explaining paramattha dhammas. A good point, worth considering. Lodewijk is still upset about: there is no Lodewijk. He said: wording it in this way makes no sense. There are different individuals, we are not the same. There are different streams of citta for this or for that person. He understands (in theory) that these cittas are impermanent and do not belong to a self. A sentence as: 'there is no Lodewijk' makes him doubt about the Dhamma, and it estranges him from the Dhamma, for a long, long time. I have to read a lot of materials to him. And life is so short. Someone who has no more wrong view of self responds differently to words expressing paramattha dhammas than worldlings who still cling to the idea of self. As you said in New York, there is not nothing. That would be close to annihilism. I often speak in one sentence about conventional realities and paramattha dhammas, but how can this be avoided when explaining Dhamma? It is useful if you mention this to me in future. There is a listener and someone who explains. It is a personal matter and it depends on the disposition of the listener how he will receive the Dhamma. The suttas can be our guide in this matter. Take the sutta about the sick monk, I quoted for James. I read the Sutta to Lodewijk because I thought it could help him. We read that the Buddha heard the words: novice, sick and of no reputation, and then he went to see this monk. He first inquired about his pains. Then he inquired about his mental wellbeing: did he have any doubt or remorse? The monk said that he did not understand the purity of life in the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha. The Buddha then asked him how he understood it and the monk answered: passion and the destruction of passion. After that the Budda went straight to paramattha dhammas, asking whether the eye is permanent or impermanent and so for the other doorways. Thus he showed the way leading to the destruction of passion. This sutta shows us that a gentle, personal introduction is helpful. Now the disposition of that monk was that he could attain the first stage of enlightenment: 'Now in that monk arose the pure and flawless eye of the Dhamma, (so that he saw) 'Whatever is of a nature to arise, all that is of a nature to cease.' This is stock for the attainment of the stage of the sotaapanna. He has eradicated the wrong view of self. People went to see the Buddha when they were troubled and suffered from sickness and losses, when they were oppressed by defilements. The Buddha could touch their hearts so that they would listen to his teaching of dukkha, the cause of dukkha, the ceasing of dukkha and the way leading to the end of dukkha. In order to understand dukkha we have to understand impermanence. They eye is impermanent. We cannot avoid knowing dhammas as they appear one at a time through the six doors. I shall pay attention to your other mail later on. Looking forward to what you have to say about this subject, Nina. #64678 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu sarahprocter... Hi Joop, --- Joop wrote: > A short reaction before i take a brake, short or long: I don't know. .... S: Whether a brake or a break, I hope it's a short one:-) I enjoy our lively discussions. .... > Concerning Nyatiloka's definition, it can be found in: > http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_n.htm > natthika-diṭṭhi: 'nihilistic view' (a doctrine that all > values are > baseless, that nothing is knowable or can be communicated, and that > life itself is meaningless), s. diṭṭhi. .... S: Yes, I see now. Curious! I found the same on the link I usually use, too: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_n.htm I replaced our very old falling-to-pieces dictionary relatively recently and it definitely doesn't have this (and as I said, I don't think the BPS will ever permit any changes). Metta, Sarah ======= #64679 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:00 am Subject: Identifying Wrong Views? antony272b2 Dear Group, I have a question about wrong views: "And how is one drawn into present things? Herein, monks, an uninstructed ordinary man who is unskilled in the Dhamma, untrained in the Dhamma, looks upon form as self, or self as possessed of form, or form as in self, or self as in form. He looks upon feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in self, or self as in feeling. He looks upon perception as self, or self as possessed of perception, or perception as in self, or self as in perception. He looks upon formations as self, or self as possessed of formations, or formations as in self, or self as in formations. He looks upon consciousness as self, or self as possessed of consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in consciousness. That is how, monks, one is drawn into present things." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.131.nana.html ++++ Antony: Ordinary people (like me) don't say in casual conversation: "I look upon form as self" etc. so the wrong view is subverbal. How do I begin to identify my wrong views during the day? Or are they so immediate and changing all the time that they can't be verbalized? In the past few days I've been grieving with the strong belief that my deceased cat Suzy (1984-2001) had a historically factual soul. Today at an art class I donated a book on how to draw and saw how a drawing (form?) of a cat starts off as overlapping, variously sized circles rather than taking for granted the image of eyes and fur color with the assumption of a fixed cat independent of the angle of seeing and the intention to see. I think I am "looking upon self as possessed of perception." Does this make sense? Thanks / Antony. #64680 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:30 am Subject: Re: mental rigidity. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply and especially the references. I like to learn about these particular cetasikas. N: "Pliancy (muduta) of citta and cetasikas perform their function in assisting kusala citta. They suppress mental rigidity. When someone is stubborn in clinging to wrong view there is mental rigidity, one is not openminded to the Dhamma. Because of conceit he may not want to listen to true Dhamma and thinks that his opinion is the best. Malleability or pliancy suppresses such mental rigidity and causes the citta to be non-resistant, openminded to the Truth of Dhamma." The list of pairs: kaayapassaddhi, cittapassaddhi kaayalahutaa, cittalahutaa kaayamudutaa cittamudutaa kaayakamma~n~nataa cittakamma~n~nataa kaayapaagu~n~nataa, cittapaagu~n~nataa kaayujukataa, cittujukataa Anatta extant and these arise. Its an interesting function, that of effecting the invisible and intangible quality of citta and cetasika in relation to the rigid/supple metaphorical dichotomy. But its true, one can sense a given "rigidity of mind" and its absence. Thanks again, Nina. With loving kindness, Scott. P.S. For my next shopping spree: If you have a moment might you list for me the texts you have and use (English) of the Khuddakanikaayo? Thanks. #64681 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:37 am Subject: Re: Identifying Wrong Views? scottduncan2 Dear Antony, Just a thought on: A: "In the past few days I've been grieving with the strong belief that my deceased cat Suzy (1984-2001) had a historically factual soul. Today at an art class I donated a book on how to draw and saw how a drawing (form?) of a cat starts off as overlapping, variously sized circles rather than taking for granted the image of eyes and fur color with the assumption of a fixed cat independent of the angle of seeing and the intention to see. I think I am 'looking upon self as possessed of perception.'" I've learned through grieving that grief creates effigies of the dead and that these can be of soul-like factual historicity as well as sketchy overlapping circles defiant of angularity and, in the absence of "cat" or "wife" stand in and seem to do. I think it is more like "possession and looking perceived as self." Sorry to hear about your cat. With loving kindness, Scott. #64682 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:52 am Subject: Re: Maana : Why I don't post much. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I like: S: "Also, sometimes we forget how subtle conceit can be - there doesn't have to be any obvious comparison involved at all - just an 'impression' of "Oh, that man went out without his umbrella" or "he's not wearing a helmet on the bicycle".....the understanding is that we wouldn't be so foolish and would do better." I wasn't plotting a "please post" sort of group-reaction for sure. And I wasn't quite joking either since I was noticing rigidity. The thing I like about learning more of the "Pairs" is that it assists in considering anatta since all aspects of experience are accounted for and named. I also appreciate the distinction and interaction between consciousness/mental body and physical body. With loving kindness, Scott. #64683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Identifying Wrong Views? nilovg Dear Anthony, Form stands for visible object. We think we see a person or a cat. In reality it is only what appears through the eyes, colour, that is seen but we take it for a being. Seeing a drawing of a cat or seeing a cat: this is perceiving an image in both cases. It is different from seeing which sees only what appears through eyes. A cat cannot impinge on the eyesense. We cannot catch wrong view, it arises with citta rooted in attachment, and cittas arise and then fall away immediately. You suggest this yourself also. If we gradually learn what dhammas are, what seeing, visible object, hearing, sound are, then we shall also have more understanding of what wrong view is. Nina. Op 25-okt-2006, om 13:00 heeft Antony Woods het volgende geschreven: > Antony: Ordinary people (like me) don't say in casual > conversation: "I look upon form as self" etc. so the wrong view is > subverbal. > > How do I begin to identify my wrong views during the day? Or are they > so immediate and changing all the time that they can't be verbalized? #64684 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:40 am Subject: re Abhidhamma in Daily Life 103. nilovg Hi James, ---------- J: Ah, you gave Howard a direct answer but you didn't give me one. I asked which did the Buddha teach more often: anatta or the value of cultivating the jhanas? (I don't have my Tipitaka right now but there is a simple way to find this out: Go to the index in each book, see how often anatta is mentioned and how often jhana is mentioned. Count them up and let me know. Which one did the Buddha teach more often?) ------- N: Jhana occurs often in the suttas, yes. Anatta is there, all the time, even not always expressively in words. I come back to this point. Monks had developed jhana before, so, the Buddha did not have to teach them how to develop it. But, he gave a new dimension to jhana. For those who had talents and inclination to jhana, jhana could be developed together with insight and for those monks there were benefits of jhana. A Buddha arose in this world not to teach jhana, but to teach the three characteristics and the way leading out of the cycle. He did not spend fortfive years of his life teaching only jhana, you will agree I am sure. You pointed out before that also laypeople could attain jhana and this is true. But, a life of sense pleasures is incompatible with jhana. Those laypeople had to be of few wishes, and very likely they observed eight precepts. -------- J: The reason I ask this question ... is because I feel that you place too much emphasis on anatta (more emphasis than should be placed). When you stress anatta over Right Speech, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration, when everything is anatta, anatta, anatta, then the reader will develop a sense of helplessness and apathy toward the Buddha's teaching (as Howard has pointed out). ---------- N: do not forget the three characteristics, James. If these are not directly understood one cannot be liberated from the cycle. No helplessness, no apathy as I explained to Howard. Conditions can and should be cultivated. Life is very short. We are fortunate to be born in the human plane where we can still hear the teachings, and we do not know what the next life will be. -------- J: I go so far as to say that you aren't even teaching the Buddha's teaching; you are teaching something else entirely. I would say that you are more an Existentialist than a Buddhist. An Existentialist believes that life is absurd and has no meaning and that we have absolutely no control over the situation to make it any better; sound familiar? Does to me- sounds like all of your teachings. ------ N: I do not know what to answer here. -------- J: Does anatta have a place in the Buddha's teaching? Yes, of course it does- but only for those who are very, very advanced in insight and are close to surrendering craving. For the rest of us, it can give the wrong impression. That is why I say the Buddha didn't teach anatta as often as he taught jhana (and the Noble Eightfold Path, even). ------- N: Think of the Sutta about sick monk and of what I just said to Howard: There are four stages of enlightenment, and the first one is that of the streamwinner, sotapanna. He has eradicated the wrong view of self, has directly understood the three characteristics. He has not eradicated all defilements, that happens only when someone has reached arahatship. The sotapanna does not transgress the five precepts. So, let us first think of the sotapanna. It is not true what you say: The sotapanna directly understands anatta but still has craving for sensepleasures, for rebirth. We should not forget that there are four stages of enlightenment. For us worldlings, anatta is difficult and deep, hard to understand. But I do not feel hopeless. We can begin now. Follow the sutta I referred to: The monk answered: This is for all of us. We all see, hear, think. We all have attachment and aversion and should't we learn their characteristics? Nina. #64685 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:12 am Subject: re Abhidhamma in Daily Life 103. nilovg Hi Howard, --------- H:However, when the mistaken belief in self is joined with the intention for "that self" to act properly out of love and respect for oneself and others - to do no harm, to do good, and to purify the mind, then step by step good can result. If that were not so, all the very good and kind but imperfect people of this world could achieve nothing wholesome or of significant value. All worldlings are beset by belief in self, yet many consistently good people can accomplish much good in the world. I think, for example, of the many saintly people who are non-Buddhists, some even materialists filled to overflowing with wrong view ;-), who serve sentient beings with love - courageously, unselfishly, consistently, and effectively. ------------ N: I agree with you, there are many examples. However, at the moment of wrong view the citta is akusala and there is not at the same time the good intention for love and respect. They can arise closely one after the other, but not at the same time. We learn: ignorance conditions meritorious kamma-formations. So long as ignorance is not eradicated by wisdom, one cannot be liberated from the cycle, even if one does many good deeds. Ignorance and wrong view can condition all sorts of good deeds, don't forget. As Buddhists we have the opportunity to listen to the Dhamma and begin to develop understanding. We should not waste this opportunity. If the beginning is not right, that is, with kusala citta and some degree of understanding, one will not reach the goal. Kusala citta is interspersed with many akusala cittas such as with wrong view, but at the moment of kusala citta with understanding, the citta is pure, with a degree of detachment, with confidence. Such rare moments are conditions for their arising again. We should not underestimate this. --------- H: quotes N: Also if one develops samatha, understanding is indispensable. One > has to know what is kusala citta and what akusala citta, otherwise > concentration on a meditation subject will not be right. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Not while one is meditating. All distractions are akusala in that case, and need to be relinquished. What one needs to do is to choose at the outset a wholesome meditation "anchor", kindly pointed out by the Buddha, and the akusala that then needs to be avoided consists of any and all distractions to the meditation process itself. The right effort during meditation is not identical to that of other times. In fact, it is considerably more demanding. A background knowledge, is critical for meditating as for all other Dhamma practice, of course. --------------------------------------------- N: A background knowledge is a degree of intellectual understanding. But more is needed. One has to know right at the moment hindrances arise, which kind of akusala arises. One has to know precisely the jhanafactors. A discriminating understanding is needed. Concentration can arise with attachment, and if this is not seen at that moment the situation is dangerous. If sati and pa~n~naa are not strong, one may take for true jhana what is not true jhana. Piiti and sukha arise with jhanacitta, but since these also arise with attachment, I think that it is easy to confuse the wholesome ones and the unwholesome ones, even if one is still engaged concentrating on one meditation subject. Nina. #64686 From: "coristine philip" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:24 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 103. philofillet Hi James I don't know if there is anything to this, but I always feel that the fact that the second discourse the Buddha chose to give was the anatta sutta shows the importance he placed on understanding anatta. I find it plants a seed to recall anatta in any sutta that follows. Kind of the way the first discourse plants a seed to recall the 4 noble truths in any sutta that follows. And the anatta sutta was delivered to the same inital five disciples as that first discourse - that makes it feel very central to me. No need to reply. Just thought I would throw that in. Phil > > ---------- > > James writes: What I want to know is what is the point of >continually > > emphasizing > > that cittas are anatta and beyond "anyone's" control? > > --------- > > The suttas repeat the same truth > > all the time. > >This is what I don't agree with. How often do the suttas speak of >this matter? Really, don't you think you are rather obsessed with >it? An occassional reminder is one thing, but you don't stop >writing about it! You know the suttas, which did the Buddha >directly teach more often: anatta or developing the jhanas? > #64687 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:09 am Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu nidive Hi Ken H, > Arguments put forward by Buddhadasa, Batchelor, Thanissaro and > others are confusing. When they tell us about 'unbound > consciousness,' 'samsara and nibbana being the same' and 'rebirth > not being taught by the Buddha,' we might be less confused if we > knew their overall perspective on the Dhamma. Correct me if I am > wrong, but I think it is as follows: I am not sure if Thanissaro speaks of an "unbound consciousness", but he did speak of a "consciousness without feature". I think he may have misunderstood the meaning of this. In my opinion, "consciousness without feature" refers to a special type of jhana that takes nibbana as its object. I think it is called the "Attainment of Fruition" which is achievable only by (all) Ariyans skilled in concentration. This "Attainment of Fruition" is not to be confused with the "Cessation of Perception & Feeling", which is only available to Anagamis and Arahants. The Buddha and Sariputta both confirmed the possibility of attaining to this special type of jhana. ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/likefire/2-1. html Ananda: In what way, lord, might a monk attain concentration of such a form that he would have neither the perception of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient? The Buddha: There is the case, Ananda, where he would be percipient of this: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all mental processes; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; nibbana.' — A X.6 [Ananda puts the same question to Sariputta, who responds that he himself once had experienced such a concentration.] Ananda: But what were you percipient of at that time? Sariputta: 'The stopping of becoming — nibbana — the stopping of becoming — nibbana': One perception arose in me as another perception stopped. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame disappears, even so, 'The stopping of becoming — nibbana — the stopping of becoming — nibbana': One perception arose in me as another one stopped. I was percipient of the stopping of becoming — nibbana. — A X.7 ------------------------------------------------------------------ > The past has never existed and the future will never exist - > Dependent Origination teaches the existence of only one, all > encompassing, moment. Because our minds are stressed, however, we > cannot see this. When it is stressed, consciousness is "bound" > (limited, restrained, conditioned) to seeing only see object at a > time. When we see only one object at a time we get the false > impression of many separate times (or moments) belonging to the > past, present and future. > Ideally, consciousness can become "unbound" (unconditioned), and > when that happens everything in samsara is known at once. That is > why nibbana is ultimately the same as samsara - enlightenment is > just a matter of seeing all of samsara at once. Regarding Buddhadasa who rejects rebirth as taught by the Buddha and claims that nibbana is ultimately the same as samsara, you can safely dismiss him as a hard-core heretic. I do not know if Thanissaro falls into this category, but from what can be seen from his translation works, I don't think he falls into this category. > In order to unbind our consciousness we need to free it from > stress. Stress occurs whenever we think about our own existence or > non-existence. Therefore, when the Buddha taught anatta he did not > mean there was no self, he simply meant we should not think about > self. Actually, I don't think the Buddha did outright declare that there is no self. If he did that, other contemplatives would be confused and declare the Buddha to be a nihilist, and that would be to their detriment. I would say, the Buddha teaches no-self by way of not-self. So it is possible that a beginner in the Dhamma need not take a position of no- self, yet come to see the reality and truth of no-self when the insight into the not-self characteristic of the five aggregates / six sense bases comes to maturity. That is when one no longer takes no- self as a position to fasten onto, but rather as a truth that one has realized and seen for himself. Fastening onto a no-self position doesn't take one across to nibbana, and is a manisfestation of clinging to rites & rituals. If one fastens onto a position of no- self, it is possible that one fastens onto a position of "absolute no control". It is wiser and much skillful to spend time practicing insight meditation into the not-self characteristic of the five aggregates than to take a position of no-self. :-) Regards, Swee Boon #64688 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khuddakanikaya. nilovg Dear Scott, Minor Readings and Illustrator (Khuddakapatha) Dhammapada, by Ven. Narada and Co, 3 parts: Buddhist Legends. Verses of Uplift and As it was said, as Minor Anthologies, no 2. Suttanipata, Group of discourses, Norman. Vimana stories and Peta stories, as Minor anthologies 4. Also the co to Vimaana stories. Theritheragatha, an old version of PTS. (The new one lost some of the poetical features) Jatakas, three volumes. Path of Discrimination. Chronicle of the Buddhas and Basket of conduct, as Minor anthologies 3. Also the co Clarifier of Sweet Meaning. I hope this helps, Nina. Op 25-okt-2006, om 13:30 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > If you have a moment might you list > for me the texts you have and use (English) of the Khuddakanikaayo? #64689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 103. nilovg Hi Philip, These are good points. I hope you often throw something in! Nina. Op 25-okt-2006, om 16:24 heeft coristine philip het volgende geschreven: > I don't know if there is anything to this, but I always feel that the > fact that the second discourse the Buddha chose to give was the anatta > sutta shows the importance he placed on understanding anatta. I > find it > plants a seed to recall anatta in any sutta that follows. Kind of > the way > the first discourse plants a seed to recall the 4 noble truths in > any sutta > that follows. And the anatta sutta was delivered to the same inital > five > disciples as that first discourse - that makes it feel very central > to me. #64690 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:37 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 105 nilovg Dear friends, When we are not mindful of realities, we take the objects we experience for ``self''. When paññå realizes the objects which are experienced as nåma and rúpa, elements which do not last and which are devoid of self, there is less opportunity for akusala javana-cittas. In the Visuddhimagga (I, 55) we read about the ``Elder'' Mahå-Tissa: ... It seems that as the Elder was on his way from Cetiyapabbata to Anurådhapura for alms, a certain daughter-in-law of a clan, who had quarreled with her husband and had set out early from Anurådhapura all dressed up and tricked out like a celestial nymph to go to her relatives' home, saw him on the road, and being low-minded, she laughed a loud laugh. (Wondering) ``What is that?'', the Elder looked up, and finding in the bones of her teeth the perception of foulness, he reached Arahatship. Hence it was said: ``He saw the bones that were her teeth, And kept in mind his first perception; And standing on that very spot, The Elder became an Arahat.'' But her husband who was going after her saw the Elder and asked ``Venerable sir, did you by any chance see a woman?'' The Elder told him: ``Whether it was a man or woman That went by I noticed not; But only that on this high road There goes a group of bones.'' Mahå-Tissa was not absorbed in the object he experienced, nor entranced by the details. He realized when he perceived the woman's teeth the ``foulness of the body'' and he did not take what he perceived for ``self''. The perception of the ``foulness of the body'' can remind us not to see the self in the body, but to realize bodily phenomena as rúpas which do not stay. Mahå-Tissa saw things as they are; the paññå arising at that moment was to the degree that it could eradicate all defilements. ****** Nina #64691 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:47 am Subject: Abhidhamma and Practice 5. nilovg Dear friends, At first we may find it strange that seeing only sees visible object and not a person. We find it strange because we actually cling to the concept of a person who exists, who stays, at least for some time, But this is not the truth. When we look at what we call a ‘person’, seeing sees only what is visible, visible object. Visible object is not a person, it is a kind of rupa which falls away immediately, although we do not realize it. At the moment of seeing only visible object is experienced, no other reality such as solidity. It is true that the rupa which is visible object does not arisen alone, it arises together with other rupas such as solidity and temperature. Visible object could not arise if there were no solidity and other rupas arising together with it. However, only one reality can be known at a time; it can be known when it appears through the appropriated doorway. Realities can be experienced one at a time through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body- sense and mind, through these six doors. The moment of consciousness which experiences visible object does not experience sound or hardness (solidity). When we touch what we call a ‘human-body’ hardness may appear through the body-sense. The hardness which is experienced is not a body, it is only hardness, a rupa which is experienced through the body-sense and it falls away again, although we do not realize it. Since we always cling to the concept of a person or the human body we fail to see them as different elements which do not stay, even for a second. We are always attached to people and to self and this causes us sorrow. We do not only cling to the concept of a person but also to the concepts of things such as a house or a tree and we believe that they exist, that they can stay. In reality there are only different elements which arise and fall away. Our life is actually one moment of consciousness which experiences one object and this moment falls away immediately. Then another moment arises. The object which is experienced does not stay either, it falls away. The development of a more precise knowledge of realities which appear one at a time is the only way to gradually eliminate ignorance and wrong view about them. If we learn to be aware of the characteristic of visible object when it appears we will know that it is only a rupa appearing through the eye-sense, not a person. If there can be awareness of hardness when it appears we will know that it is only a rupa appearing through the body-sense, not a person or a thing. We should not try to avoid thinking of people or things, thinking is a reality, it arises. However, we should know that the concepts which are object of our thinking are not real in the ultimate sense; they are different from nama and rupa which can be experienced one at a time through the appropriate doorways. We form up concepts because of a combination of many different experiences which we remember. ****** Nina #64692 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:Abhidhamma in Practice 4, language upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk, and all) - In a message dated 10/25/06 6:07:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ----------- > > H: Another matter that I think is very deservant of elucidation and > elaboration, and which is keenly needed but dealt with almost not at > all (by > anyone), is the relationship between conventional (or figurative, as > I would put it) > speech, and ultimate (or literal, as I would put it) speech. In the > process, > doing so would clarify each, would demonstrate the value and > necessity of > each, and would show the special care in understanding that needs to > be taken in > understanding each so as not to conflate them, doing a disservice to > each. > > ------- > > N: This is exactly what Lodewijk thinks. You touched on this before, > speaking of mixing the conventional langugae and the language > explaining paramattha dhammas. A good point, worth considering. > > Lodewijk is still upset about: there is no Lodewijk. He said: wording > it in this way makes no sense. There are different individuals, we > are not the same. There are different streams of citta for this or > for that person. He understands (in theory) that these cittas are > impermanent and do not belong to a self. > > A sentence as: 'there is no Lodewijk' makes him doubt about the > Dhamma, and it estranges him from the Dhamma, for a long, long time. > I have to read a lot of materials to him. And life is so short. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: IMO, this is why a habit of regular, mindful introspection (supported by cultivation of calmness and clarity) is so crucial in addition to reading-about and hearing-about. The direct seeing of the reality of matters usually is far less fearful than the corresponding conceptualizing (story-making ;-) for one who is upset by words of anatta. When one "sees" directly what actually occurs where "the person" is assumed to be, there is seen not only what the reality is, but also that, in fact, nothing has changed, and nothing has been destroyed except some faulty ideas and harmful inclinations. As I said to Lodewijk, all the thinking, seeing, tasting, feeling, loving, hating, worrying, delighting-in, and so on that, taken together conceptually, is called "Lodewijk" actually occurs, and I would add that it occurs as part and parcel of a living, dynamic, interrelated flux that, if not obsessed about and not clung to, is amazing and wonderful! ---------------------------------------------------- > > Someone who has no more wrong view of self responds differently to > words expressing paramattha dhammas than worldlings who still cling > to the idea of self. > > As you said in New York, there is not nothing. That would be close to > annihilism. > > I often speak in one sentence about conventional realities and > paramattha dhammas, but how can this be avoided when explaining > Dhamma? It is useful if you mention this to me in future. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree that it is unavoidable. What we all have to work to avoid in that regard, though, I believe is a *confusing* mix of the two modes of speech. In particular, some improper interpreting of figurative speech as literal (i.e., as ultimate) can have the particularly harmful effect of making one believe that conventional volitional actions are impossible, leading to a sense of powerlessness and hopelessness. -------------------------------------------- > > There is a listener and someone who explains. It is a personal matter > and it depends on the disposition of the listener how he will receive > the Dhamma. The suttas can be our guide in this matter. > > Take the sutta about the sick monk, I quoted for James. I read the > Sutta to Lodewijk because I thought it could help him. We read that > the Buddha heard the words: novice, sick and of no reputation, and > then he went to see this monk. He first inquired about his pains. > Then he inquired about his mental wellbeing: did he have any doubt or > remorse? > > The monk said that he did not understand the purity of life in the > Dhamma as taught by the Buddha. The Buddha then asked him how he > understood it and the monk answered: passion and the destruction of > passion. After that the Budda went straight to paramattha dhammas, > asking whether the eye is permanent or impermanent and so for the > other doorways. Thus he showed the way leading to the destruction of > passion. > > This sutta shows us that a gentle, personal introduction is helpful. > Now the disposition of that monk was that he could attain the first > stage of enlightenment: 'Now in that monk arose the pure and flawless > eye of the Dhamma, (so that he saw) 'Whatever is of a nature to > arise, all that is of a nature to cease.' This is stock for the > attainment of the stage of the sotaapanna. He has eradicated the > wrong view of self. > > People went to see the Buddha when they were troubled and suffered > from sickness and losses, when they were oppressed by defilements. > The Buddha could touch their hearts so that they would listen to his > teaching of dukkha, the cause of dukkha, the ceasing of dukkha and > the way leading to the end of dukkha. > > In order to understand dukkha we have to understand impermanence. > They eye is impermanent. We cannot avoid knowing dhammas as they > appear one at a time through the six doors. > > I shall pay attention to your other mail later on. > > Looking forward to what you have to say about this subject, > > Nina. > > ======================= With metta, Howard #64693 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Identifying Wrong Views? upasaka_howard Hi, Antony - In a message dated 10/25/06 7:06:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@... writes: > > Dear Group, > > I have a question about wrong views: > "And how is one drawn into present things? Herein, monks, an > uninstructed ordinary man who is unskilled in the Dhamma, > untrained in the Dhamma, looks upon > form as self, or self as possessed of form, or form as in self, or > self as in form. > He looks upon > feeling as self, or self as possessed of feeling, or feeling as in > self, or self as in feeling. > He looks upon perception as self, or self as possessed of perception, > or perception as in self, or self as in perception. > He looks upon formations as self, or self as possessed of formations, > or formations as in self, or self as in formations. > He looks upon consciousness as self, or self as possessed of > consciousness, or consciousness as in self, or self as in > consciousness. That is how, monks, one is drawn into present things." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.131.nana.html > ++++ > Antony: Ordinary people (like me) don't say in casual > conversation: "I look upon form as self" etc. so the wrong view is > subverbal. > > How do I begin to identify my wrong views during the day? Or are they > so immediate and changing all the time that they can't be verbalized? > > In the past few days I've been grieving with the strong belief that > my deceased cat Suzy (1984-2001) had a historically factual soul. > Today at an art class I donated a book on how to draw and saw how a > drawing (form?) of a cat starts off as overlapping, variously sized > circles rather than taking for granted the image of eyes and fur > color with the assumption of a fixed cat independent of the angle of > seeing and the intention to see. > > I think I am "looking upon self as possessed of perception." > > Does this make sense? > > Thanks / Antony. ========================== Wrong view isn't always subverbal. Much that we say, if meant more literally than figuratively (when only the figurative usage is proper), displays wrong view. Suppose, for example, you stub your toe and say or think "I hurt myself." That is perfectly good and true figurative language. If it is taken as such, there is no wrong view involved. If we look into the matter, we see that when "hurting myself" many actual things occurred, but none of them involved an action by a findable "I", and none of them involved hurting some findable entity called "myself". If the words are taken literally, however, without any analysis being made as to what the facts are, it is wrong view that is active. When we speak and think, it is useful to look introspectively and deeply to see two things: 1) What is the sense intended by our talking or thinking, i.e., what is the way we are superficially "seeing" things, and 2) What is the reality of what occurs. With metta, Howard #64694 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:48 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Emptiness Awareness-Release nidive Hi Sarah, > Great thread you guys have had with Swee Boon's excellent details > too on the delineations etc which also puzzled me. I was glad to > read Swee Boon's 'translation' and explanation and the BB note and > detail Larry posted. I thought the expression "delineate a delineation of X" can also be used to express the co-arising/co-dependence of citta and cetasikas. Something that can be "delineated" is something which is "dependently come into being". Therefore, if for example X is contact, then "a delineation of contact" means that contact is something that is "dependently come into being". Then what does the "delineate" that comes before "a delineation of X" mean? I think it means "cognize". Citta is what that cognizes and it is also something that is "dependently come into being". Therefore, the expression "it is possible that one will delineate a delineation of X" is a succinct way of describing the co-arising/co- dependence nature of samsara. And the expression "it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of X" is a succinct way of describing the non co-arising/ non co-dependence nature of nibbana. Regards, Swee Boon #64695 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:Abhidhamma in Practice 4, language nidive Hi Howard, > When one "sees" directly what actually occurs where "the person" is > assumed to be, there is seen not only what the reality is, but also > that, in fact, nothing has changed, and nothing has been destroyed > except some faulty ideas and harmful inclinations. I agree. > As I said to Lodewijk, all the thinking, seeing, tasting, feeling, > loving, hating, worrying, delighting-in, and so on that, taken > together conceptually, is called "Lodewijk" actually occurs, and I > would add that it occurs as part and parcel of a living, dynamic, > interrelated flux that, if not obsessed about and not clung to, is > amazing and wonderful! I think there is some contradiction here. If one finds the ability to see, hear, taste, smell, touch and think as amazing and wonderful, isn't there passion and delight for those six senses? How is "amazing and wonderful" to be understood in the context of The Fire Sermon? ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.than.html I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Gaya, at Gaya Head, with 1,000 monks. There he addressed the monks: "Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither- pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. "The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame... "The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame... "The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame... "The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame... "The intellect is aflame. Ideas are aflame. Consciousness at the intellect is aflame. Contact at the intellect is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. "Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: With that, too, he grows disenchanted. "He grows disenchanted with the ear... "He grows disenchanted with the nose... "He grows disenchanted with the tongue... "He grows disenchanted with the body... "He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: He grows disenchanted with that too. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, the hearts of the 1,000 monks, through no clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from fermentation/effluents. ------------------------------------------------------------------ In my opinion, something that is 'aflame' cannot be "amazing and wonderful". Regards, Swee Boon #64696 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:Abhidhamma in Practice 4, language upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 10/25/06 12:11:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >When one "sees" directly what actually occurs where "the person" is > >assumed to be, there is seen not only what the reality is, but also > >that, in fact, nothing has changed, and nothing has been destroyed > >except some faulty ideas and harmful inclinations. > > I agree. > > >As I said to Lodewijk, all the thinking, seeing, tasting, feeling, > >loving, hating, worrying, delighting-in, and so on that, taken > >together conceptually, is called "Lodewijk" actually occurs, and I > >would add that it occurs as part and parcel of a living, dynamic, > >interrelated flux that, if not obsessed about and not clung to, is > >amazing and wonderful! > > I think there is some contradiction here. If one finds the ability to > see, hear, taste, smell, touch and think as amazing and wonderful, > isn't there passion and delight for those six senses? > > How is "amazing and wonderful" to be understood in the context of The > Fire Sermon? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.028.than.html > > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Gaya, > at Gaya Head, with 1,000 monks. There he addressed the monks: > > "Monks, the All is aflame. What All is aflame? The eye is aflame. > Forms are aflame. Consciousness at the eye is aflame. Contact at the > eye is aflame. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on > contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither- > pleasure-nor-pain — that too is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with > the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion. > Aflame, I tell you, with birth, aging &death, with sorrows, > lamentations, pains, distresses, &despairs. > > "The ear is aflame. Sounds are aflame... > > "The nose is aflame. Aromas are aflame... > > "The tongue is aflame. Flavors are aflame... > > "The body is aflame. Tactile sensations are aflame... > > "The intellect is aflame. Ideas are aflame. Consciousness at the > intellect is aflame. Contact at the intellect is aflame. And whatever > there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — > experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too > is aflame. Aflame with what? Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire > of aversion, the fire of delusion. Aflame, I say, with birth, aging & > death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, &despairs. > > "Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows > disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with > consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye. And > whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye, > experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: With that, > too, he grows disenchanted. > > "He grows disenchanted with the ear... > > "He grows disenchanted with the nose... > > "He grows disenchanted with the tongue... > > "He grows disenchanted with the body... > > "He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, > disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with > contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in > dependence on contact at the intellect, experienced as pleasure, pain > or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: He grows disenchanted with that too. > Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is > fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully > released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, > the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" > > That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at > his words. And while this explanation was being given, the hearts of > the 1,000 monks, through no clinging (not being sustained), were fully > released from fermentation/effluents. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > In my opinion, something that is 'aflame' cannot be "amazing and > wonderful". > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ====================== I disagree with you. The reality of things is miraculous. The paeons of joy expressed upon enlightenment and reported in the songs of the monks and nuns, and elsewhere, are not baseless. The Buddha's smile is not baseless. Note that I said that "it occurs as part and parcel of a living, dynamic, interrelated flux that, IF NOT OBSESSED ABOUT AND NOT CLUNG TO, is amazing and wonderful!" [Upper case letters added here.] What does the fire sermon say the All is aflame with? It is "Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion." When these fires that cloud the mind and distort perception and emotion are over and done with, the interrelated flux of actualities remains, but seen as it is - pristine, undefiled, immaculate. The freeness of reality and its realization are glorious. That there is only suffering to be found in being enchanted and enslaved does not in the slightest take away from the beauty of reality as it is. The removal of defilements reveals the beauty. The goal of the Dhamma is neither annihilation, nor a dreary distaste, but an awakening to freedom and wisdom. With metta, Howard P.S. You have your perspective on this, and I have mine. I don't wish to engage is dueling sutta references to shore up my "stance". I am content to let reality disabuse me of my mistaken view should I be in the wrong. #64697 From: Daniel Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:04 pm Subject: Re: Mind (Napa&Rupa also) sbhtkk Dear Nina and all, > 'And here by tranquilization, etc., of consciousness only > consciousness is tranquilized and becomes light, malleable, wieldy, > proficient and upright. But with tranquilization, etc., of the > [mental]body also the material body is tranquilized, and so on. This > is why the twofoldness of states is given by the Blessed One here, > but not in all places' (Pm.489). It is a beautiful quote, thanks for that. However, it seems to me that if the mind is to influence the body somehow, the effects of its influenced should be measured. It does seem reasonable from our daily experience that the mind influences the body, we seem to know\assume it when it comes to the macro level. However, how can it be that when it comes to the micro-level, one does not find evidence of non-material influences on the body? (Well, one can always say 'what about quantum mechanics', but all know nothing about quantum mechanics, do we? I think that it should be seen that the mind influences the cells. It is very strange why effects of the mind on cells are not seen). Yours, Daniel #64698 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:39 pm Subject: Re: re Abhidhamma in Daily Life 103. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > > ---------- > J: Ah, you gave Howard a direct answer but you didn't give me one. I > asked which did the Buddha teach more often: anatta or the value of > cultivating the jhanas? (I don't have my Tipitaka right now but > there is a simple way to find this out: Go to the index in each > book, see how often anatta is mentioned and how often jhana is > mentioned. Count them up and let me know. Which one did the Buddha > teach more often?) > ------- > N: Jhana occurs often in the suttas, yes. Anatta is there, all the > time, even not always expressively in words. I can see that no matter how many times I ask this question I am not going to get a direct answer. Nina, now you are claiming that every single sutta is about anatta, even when not expressly stated. Again, I find this as proof of your obsession with anatta. What if I said that every sutta the Buddha gave was really about dukkha, even if not expressly stated? "Dukkha, dukkha, dukkha, everything is about dukkha…It is the first Noble Truth after all. Everything is dukkha; we musn't forget dukkha; we can never have too many reminders about dukkha. Yes, everything should be seen in terms of dukkha. Dukkha, dukkha, dukkha…" Wouldn't you say that I had an unhealthy obsession with dukkha? Wouldn't those who read my writing interpret the Buddha's teaching as depressing and morose? There needs to be balance in what is presented. The Buddha's teaching is not all about anatta anymore than it is all about dukkha, or all about jhana, or all about DO, etc. Metta, James #64699 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 103. buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "coristine philip" wrote: > > > Hi James > > I don't know if there is anything to this, but I always feel that the > fact that the second discourse the Buddha chose to give was the anatta > sutta shows the importance he placed on understanding anatta. I find it > plants a seed to recall anatta in any sutta that follows. I don't agree. If the Buddha's teaching was to be viewed entirely in terms of anatta, he would have said so in his first sermon. He didn't have a time limit after all, he could have taught anatta in that first sermon if he felt it was necessary. The first sermon is of the utmost importance. It is all called the wheel turning sermon because it begins the wheel of dhamma. Every sermon after that first sermon should be viewed in terms of the first sermon. The second sermon is just that, the second sermon. Not every subsequent sermon should be viewed in terms of the second sermon. That wouldn't make any sense. What about the third sermon? What about the fourth, and the fifth, and the sixth? Just where do you draw the line in terms of importance? Metta, James #64700 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re Abhidhamma in Daily Life 103. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina) - In a message dated 10/25/06 4:46:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Nina, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > >Hi James, > > > >---------- > >J: Ah, you gave Howard a direct answer but you didn't give me one. > I > >asked which did the Buddha teach more often: anatta or the value of > >cultivating the jhanas? (I don't have my Tipitaka right now but > >there is a simple way to find this out: Go to the index in each > >book, see how often anatta is mentioned and how often jhana is > >mentioned. Count them up and let me know. Which one did the Buddha > >teach more often?) > >------- > >N: Jhana occurs often in the suttas, yes. Anatta is there, all > the > >time, even not always expressively in words. > > I can see that no matter how many times I ask this question I am not > going to get a direct answer. Nina, now you are claiming that every > single sutta is about anatta, even when not expressly stated. > Again, I find this as proof of your obsession with anatta. What if > I said that every sutta the Buddha gave was really about dukkha, > even if not expressly stated? "Dukkha, dukkha, dukkha, everything > is about dukkha…It is the first Noble Truth after all. Everything > is dukkha; we musn't forget dukkha; we can never have too many > reminders about dukkha. Yes, everything should be seen in terms of > dukkha. Dukkha, dukkha, dukkha…" Wouldn't you say that I had an > unhealthy obsession with dukkha? Wouldn't those who read my writing > interpret the Buddha's teaching as depressing and morose? There > needs to be balance in what is presented. The Buddha's teaching is > not all about anatta anymore than it is all about dukkha, or all > about jhana, or all about DO, etc. > > Metta, > James > > ======================== I agree with you about balance in presentation, James, and your point about dukkha as competitor to anatta for prominence in the Dhamma is a good one, expecially as the Buddha said that he teaches only dukkha and the end of dukkha. One might also with justification argue that anicca lies at the heart of the Dhamma. One might especially argue that paticcasamupada lies at the heart of the teaching, and the Buddha himself said something along those lines. However, the most distinctively Buddhist "theory" teaching (as opposed to the most distinctive "practice" teaching, which I think might well be investigation of dhammas) is the teaching of anatta. If I'm not mistaken the Buddha even in his day was called "the teacher of anatta". And it is anatta with it's full range of meaning, including impersonality, corelessness, identitylessness, insubstantiality, dependency, and conditionality that is the core of Dhamma theory in *all* the schools of Buddhism. Mahayana, under the name of "emptiness", particularly puts it at the center and identifies if with conditionality and dependent origination. So, while presentation of Dhamma importantly requires balance, to the extent that presentation is slanted in one direction, anatta seems a likely direction to me. It is, of course, a separate issue what conclusions one draws from the fact of anatta. With metta, Howard #64701 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:17 pm Subject: Re: re Abhidhamma in Daily Life 103. buddhatrue Hi Howard (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: So, while presentation of Dhamma importantly > requires balance, to the extent that presentation is slanted in one direction, > anatta seems a likely direction to me. It is, of course, a separate issue what > conclusions one draws from the fact of anatta. I think that we are more in agreement on this issue than disagreement. I, for one, do believe that anatta is the heart of the Buddha's teaching; however, I don't believe it is the ENTIRETY of the Buddha's teaching. There needs to be balance in presentation of the Buddha's teaching or there is likely to be misinterpretation. The thing is that the Abhidhamma is entirely about anatta; however, I don't believe the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma, while Nina does. Therefore, there will probably never be agreement on this issue and I will have to read about anatta until I want to puke anatta! ;-)). But, I hadn't posted for a while so I thought I should get some things stirred up! ;-)) Metta, James #64702 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re Abhidhamma in Daily Life 103. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Nina) - In a message dated 10/25/06 8:22:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Nina), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > So, while presentation of Dhamma importantly > >requires balance, to the extent that presentation is slanted in > one direction, > >anatta seems a likely direction to me. It is, of course, a > separate issue what > >conclusions one draws from the fact of anatta. > > I think that we are more in agreement on this issue than > disagreement. > ------------------------------------ Howard: That may well be so. :-) ------------------------------------ I, for one, do believe that anatta is the heart of > > the Buddha's teaching; however, I don't believe it is the ENTIRETY > of the Buddha's teaching. ------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed not. I doubt that Nina thinks it is either. ------------------------------------ > > There needs to be balance in presentation of the Buddha's teaching > or there is likely to be misinterpretation. The thing is that the > Abhidhamma is entirely about anatta; however, I don't believe the > Buddha taught the Abhidhamma, while Nina does. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, I don't think it's so that the Abhidhamma is antirely about Abhidhamma. I'm not sure the Abhidhamma Pitaka is any more about anatta than the suttas are. If anything, I tend to see far more of a discrete realist pluralism implied in the Abhidhamma than in the suttas. --------------------------------------- Therefore, there > will probably never be agreement on this issue and I > will have to > read about anatta until I want to puke anatta! ;-)). ---------------------------------------- Howard: Tenderly put, James! LOLOL! You know, though, it's not anatta that is our sickness. We have the atta-disease: an illness that is insidious, highly infectious, and requiring the strongest of medicines for its cure. --------------------------------------- > > But, I hadn't posted for a while so I thought I should get some > things stirred up! ;-)) ---------------------------------------- Howard: Hey, if anyone can do it, "you da man!" ;-) ----------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ===================== With metta, Howard #64703 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: re Abhidhamma in Daily Life 103. upasaka_howard Hi again, James & Nina - In a message dated 10/25/06 8:56:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes: > Howard: > Actually, I don't think it's so that the Abhidhamma is antirely about > Abhidhamma. I'm not sure the Abhidhamma Pitaka is any more about anatta than > the suttas are. If anything, I tend to see far more of a discrete realist > pluralism implied in the Abhidhamma than in the suttas. > ========================== Let me try a rewrite of that 1st sentence! ;-)) It was intended to be "Actually, I don't think it's so that the Abhidhamma is entirely about anatta." With metta, Howard #64704 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:11 pm Subject: Re: re:Abhidhamma in Practice 4, language nidive Hi Howard, > I disagree with you. The reality of things is miraculous. The paeons > of joy expressed upon enlightenment and reported in the songs of the > monks and nuns, and elsewhere, are not baseless. The Buddha's smile > is not baseless. I think that's because the realization of nibbana is amazing & wonderful and not because the six senses are amazing & wonderful. > Note that I said that "it occurs as part and parcel of a living, > dynamic, interrelated flux that, IF NOT OBSESSED ABOUT AND NOT > CLUNG TO, is amazing and wonderful!" [Upper case letters added here > ] What does the fire sermon say the All is aflame with? It is > "Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of > delusion." When these fires that cloud the mind and distort > perception and emotion are over and done with, the interrelated > flux of actualities remains, but seen as it is - pristine, > undefiled, immaculate. The Buddha also says that it is aflame with "birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, &despairs". I think it is very important to see that the six senses are actually old kamma. They are the result of ignorance & craving. Something that is the result of ignorance & craving cannot be amazing & wonderful. > The freeness of reality and its realization are glorious. That there > is only suffering to be found in being enchanted and enslaved does > not in the slightest take away from the beauty of reality as it is. > The removal of defilements reveals the beauty. The Buddha did say that the beauty of the five strands of sensuality remains though passion & delight for them have been subdued. But I don't think a person contemplating on the foulness of the body after Awakening would have a sudden change in perspective. He may think that a person is beautiful but the perspective on the very foulness of that person's body remains. > The goal of the Dhamma is neither annihilation, nor a dreary > distaste, but an awakening to freedom and wisdom. I don't know what to make of this. Am I on the verge of annihilation? Regards, Swee Boon #64705 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:15 pm Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu ken_aitch Hi James, -------------- J: > I have read about the interpretation that all twelve links of D.O.occur in one thought moment. I have also read about the interpretation that all eight factors of the Noble Eightfold Path occur in one thought moment, which is even more preposterous (don't you believe that one? ;-)) -------------- Instead of judging which of the two is the more preposterous, I am asking which is the teaching of the Buddha? I suspect "no rebirth" is the teaching of Buddhadasa and Batchelor et al. And I suspect it relies on the proposition that everything - past, present, future, here, there, in between and beyond, can be known together in the one moment. The other kind of one-moment teaching is very different, and is to be found unambiguously in the Theravada texts. It says that dhammas have existed (but no longer exist) in the past, while other dhammas will (but do not yet) exist in the future. Every dhamma that does exist does so only in the present moment. In other words, anything that did, does, or will exist existed, exists, or will exist in the timeframe of a single past, present or future moment, respectively. Therefore, if there really is an eightfold path that leads out of samsara, it must exist in a single moment. Otherwise, it (the NEP) is a mere concept - a figment of the imagination. ----------------------------- J: > However, I haven't read about these other things you propose like nibbana is being able to see samsara all at once, and the like. Maybe you could quote some relevant texts- I would be interested to read about that. ----------------------------- You will have read about samsara and nibbana being ultimately the same, and you will have read about universal consciousness. I was putting those heterodoxies together and concluding that (according to them) enlightenment must be a matter of seeing all of samsara (past, present, future, etc) at once. How else could samsara be seen as nibbana? As I was saying, it is confusing to see these heterodoxies in isolation from each other because we don't know where they are coming from. Therefore I tried to sum up Buddhadasa's overall teaching in a few short paragraphs. It was largely guesswork. If you or anyone else can better, I will be glad to see it. Ken H #64706 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:31 pm Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu ken_aitch Hi Swee Boon, ------------- <. . .> SB: > I am not sure if Thanissaro speaks of an "unbound consciousness", -------------- According to my sieve-like memory, there was such a quote quite recently on DSG. Sorry I can't be more specific. Thanks for the information on "consciousness without feature." It sounds like a glimpse into parinibbana. It can't be the real thing of course, because parinibbana is without consciousness. Thanissaro disputes this. If you read his essay on "the flame gone out" you will be told that there is actually an "essence of flame" that always remains. (According to Thanissaro, that is.) ---------------------- <. . .> SB: > Regarding Buddhadasa who rejects rebirth as taught by the Buddha and claims that nibbana is ultimately the same as samsara, you can safely dismiss him as a hard-core heretic. I do not know if Thanissaro falls into this category, but from what can be seen from his translation works, I don't think he falls into this category. ----------------------- I know you don't, I have been trying for years to convince you otherwise! :-) ---------------------------------- <. . .> SB: > Actually, I don't think the Buddha did outright declare that there is no self. If he did that, other contemplatives would be confused and declare the Buddha to be a nihilist, and that would be to their detriment. ------------------------------------ OK, we have changed the subject now (no longer talking about Buddhadasa and Thanissaro). Firstly, I would like to point out that there are places in the Tipitaka where the Buddha flatly asserts there is no self. As usual, I can't give references, but Ven. Dhammanado gave a selection of them on DSG some time ago. He quoted the Buddha as saying: "In truth and reality, there is no self." Secondly, I am not convinced that the Buddha hid the fact of anatta from newcomers. Nor do I believe that he in any way sugarcoated the Dhamma in order to draw people in. Phil and I were discussing this recently, and Sarah joined in with some useful quotes. ------------------- SB: > I would say, the Buddha teaches no-self by way of not-self. So it is possible that a beginner in the Dhamma need not take a position of no- self, yet come to see the reality and truth of no-self when the insight into the not-self characteristic of the five aggregates / six sense bases comes to maturity. -------------------- Sarah quoted K Sujin as saying: "We are learning to understand the elements - studying the element of citta, the element of cetasika, the element of rupa. So there's no question about 'how' and 'I' and 'me' at all." Would you agree that we don't need to "take a position" of any kind? We just need to listen to, and learn, the Buddha's teaching. We don't need to worry, "Do I believe this? How am I to prove it for myself?" ---------------------- SB: > That is when one no longer takes no- self as a position to fasten onto, but rather as a truth that one has realized and seen for himself. Fastening onto a no-self position doesn't take one across to nibbana, and is a manisfestation of clinging to rites & rituals. If one fastens onto a position of no- self, it is possible that one fastens onto a position of "absolute no control". It is wiser and much skillful to spend time practicing insight meditation into the not-self characteristic of the five aggregates than to take a position of no-self. :-) ----------------------- I assume that, by "insight meditation," you are referring to the development of right understanding, and not to a silly rite or ritual. If so I agree with what you have said. But I hope you will agree with me that 'studying the Dhamma' is by no means the same as 'fastening onto a position.' Ken H #64707 From: "coristine philip" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:37 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 103. philofillet Hi James (p.s to Sarah) I guess my impression that the anatta sutta is an especially cetnral one was cemented by N. Thera (I forget which one) including the first three discourses together in a short book he called "The Cardinal Discourses of the Buddha." That made an impression on me. Also, as you know I spend a couple of years focussing on SN 22 and 35 in which no-self is constantly brought up as a point of understanding that the notion of anattta *not*being central to Dhamma is a bit ppeculiar to me. Now if I had only been studying Anguttara Nikaya, for example, I wouldn't feel so. Never mind. Anyways, I don't think an appreciation of the centrality of the teaching of anatta need prevent one from meditating, which is the issue you are usually going after. . I am doing simple bare attention meditation again and I don't care whether clinging to self is at the root of it or not. It is a good, helpful exercise for better understanding the workings of the mind and sorting out mental clutter, cutting off the akusala proliferation - just that for me, for now. There are conditions for it. And the Buddha certainly pushed monks to develop jhanas. I don't have conditions for that, but if you do, go for it, no matter what anyone tells you and don't spend so mcuh of your precious time and energy worrying about what other people say. (I know you want to spare people from being sent to hell realms etc but look after your own cittas, as someone here once wisely said. Catch you later. Phil p.s Sarah, thanks for posting the foundation of sila thread but I really don't want to carry on that discussion now. >From: "buddhatrue" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 103. >Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:48:14 -0000 > >Hi Phil, > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "coristine philip" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi James > > > > I don't know if there is anything to this, but I always feel >that the > > fact that the second discourse the Buddha chose to give was the >anatta > > sutta shows the importance he placed on understanding anatta. I >find it > > plants a seed to recall anatta in any sutta that follows. > >I don't agree. If the Buddha's teaching was to be viewed entirely >in terms of anatta, he would have said so in his first sermon. He >didn't have a time limit after all, he could have taught anatta in >that first sermon if he felt it was necessary. > >The first sermon is of the utmost importance. It is all called the >wheel turning sermon because it begins the wheel of dhamma. Every >sermon after that first sermon should be viewed in terms of the >first sermon. The second sermon is just that, the second sermon. >Not every subsequent sermon should be viewed in terms of the second >sermon. That wouldn't make any sense. What about the third >sermon? What about the fourth, and the fifth, and the sixth? Just >where do you draw the line in terms of importance? > >Metta, >James > > #64708 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:54 pm Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > The other kind of one-moment teaching is very different, and is to be > found unambiguously in the Theravada texts. It says that dhammas have > existed (but no longer exist) in the past, while other dhammas will > (but do not yet) exist in the future. Every dhamma that does exist > does so only in the present moment. In other words, anything that > did, does, or will exist existed, exists, or will exist in the > timeframe of a single past, present or future moment, respectively. > Therefore, if there really is an eightfold path that leads out of > samsara, it must exist in a single moment. Otherwise, it (the NEP) is > a mere concept - a figment of the imagination. Hmmmm….interesting. I have never heard it explained that way. You said that this teaching is found in the Theravada texts, but it isn't found in the suttas. The Buddha doesn't teach this. The factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are not realities; they don't exist in single mind moments. So, I guess, by your definition, they don't exist. So what? They don't exist. Who cares? I don't exist either and so I will follow the Noble Eightfold Path that doesn't exist. Emptiness following emptiness. Reminds me of the Heart Sutra: "Also, There is No Truth of Suffering, Of the Cause of Suffering, Of the Cessation of Suffering, Nor of the Path." Metta, James #64709 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily life 103. buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "coristine philip" wrote: > > > Hi James (p.s to Sarah) > > I guess my impression that the anatta sutta is an especially cetnral one > was cemented by N. Thera (I forget which one) including the first three > discourses together in a short book he called "The Cardinal Discourses of > the Buddha." That made an impression on me. Thanks for drawing my attention to this pamphlet. I like this quote from the Vism. which is included: "The characteristic of impermanence does not become apparent because, when rise and fall are not given attention, it is concealed by continuity; the characteristic of pain does not become apparent because, when continuous oppression is not given attention, it is concealed by the postures (changing from one posture to another, waking and sleeping); the characteristic of not-self does not become apparent because, when resolution into the various elements (that compose whatever is) is not given attention, it is concealed by compactness." I like this quote because it gives the three characteristics equal billing and shows how they are similar. > > Also, as you know I spend a couple of years focussing on SN 22 and 35 in > which no-self is constantly brought up as a point of understanding that the > notion of anattta *not*being central to Dhamma is a bit ppeculiar to me. > Now if I had only been studying Anguttara Nikaya, for example, I wouldn't > feel so. It depends on what you study. Some suttas really stress anatta and some don't. The point I have been making is that Buddhism isn't just anatta and there isn't a reason to stress anatta to the exclusion of everything else. > > Never mind. Anyways, I don't think an appreciation of the centrality of > the teaching of anatta need prevent one from meditating, which is the > issue you are usually going after. It's good that you realize meditation and anatta can go hand-in- hand. However, I wasn't really going after that issue with this thread. I am just getting sick of reading about anatta all the time! ;-)) . I am doing simple bare attention > meditation again and I don't care whether clinging to self is at the root > of it or not. It is a good, helpful exercise for better understanding the > workings of the mind and sorting out mental clutter, cutting off the > akusala proliferation - just that for me, for now. There are conditions for > it. Bravo! I'm glad to hear it. Now I won't have to lament your fate and blame the evil influences of DSG anymore! ;-)) (just kidding). > > And the Buddha certainly pushed monks to develop jhanas. I don't have > conditions for that, but if you do, go for it, no matter what anyone tells > you and don't spend so mcuh of your precious time and energy worrying about > what other people say. I really don't know if I have the conditions in my life to develop the jhanas or not. Actually, I am not really shooting for that, I'm just trying to keep my head above water (the water of gross defilements). (I know you want to spare people from being sent to > hell realms etc but look after your own cittas, as someone here once wisely > said. Hmmmm...I don't know if I ever mentioned anything about wanting to save people from hell realms. I don't have psychic insight into people's future lives so I doubt I have made that claim. I do look after my own cittas; but I also sometimes foolishly feel like I need to defend the dhamma. I hate to see it corrupted. But it's a losing battle and a waste of my energy. Right now, I am just wasting time ;-)). > > Catch you later. > > Phil Metta, James #64710 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:04 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 109, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 109. Intro: In the preceding section one representative cause and fruit have been taught: ignorance conditions kamma-formations. Those kamma- formations are kusala, akusala and imperturbable, which are aruupa- jhaana kusala cittas. In this section, a person who does not understand how ignorance can condition kusala and imperturbable questions this fact. In the following sections an explanation is given. ---------- 109. Here it may be said: 'We admit that. But ignorance is reprehensible and has entirely undesirable fruit. How then can it rightly be a condition for formations of merit and of the imperturbable? Sugarcane does not grow from [bitter] nimba seeds'. ------- N: The Tiika laborates further on the reprover’s remark adding that the formations of merit and of the imperturbable are of a blameless nature and bring desirable vipaaka, and are thus opposed to ignorance. -------- Text Vis.: Why should it not be right? --------- N: The Tiika states further that a desirable cause does not mature as an undesirable result, and a undesirable cause does not mature as a desirable result. In other words, a good or bad deed produces vipaaka accordingly. The reprover who states that ignorance is reprehensible and has an entirely reprehensible fruit and asks how it can be a condition for kusala, considers ignorance only under the aspect of rootcause, hetu, as the Tiika states. The Tiika states that the intended meaning is in accordance with the characteristics of the conditioning dhammas for the conditioned dhammas and that in this connection there is a multiformity of conditions, not a limited application of conditions. Here it is shown that the ways a conditioning dhamma is related to the dhamma it conditions are intricate. There is a variety of conditioning factors. ---------- Text Vis.: For in the world [that is, even among thinkers outside the Dispensation it is recognized that] Both as opposed and unopposed a state's conditions may be found, and both as like and unlike too: that does not make it their 'result'. -------- N: The are conditions other than kamma that produces vipaaka. For example, akusala can condition kusala by way of natural decisive support-condition. In the next section it is further explained that something can have an effect on something else although it is opposed and dissimilar to it in nature or function. Conclusion: We are reminded that because of ignorance that conceals the danger of rebirth, we can be misled. Kusala can be conditioned by ignorance. We may believe that it is sufficient to perform many good deeds, such as deeds of generosity and observing the precepts. However, if right understanding of the eightfold Path is not developed ignorance and the other defilements are not eradicated and there will not be liberation from the cycle, liberation from dukkha. ***** Nina. #64711 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mind (Napa&Rupa also) nilovg Dear Daniel, we cannot measure all those things. Is it not enough to know that nama conditions rupa and rupa nama? That helps detachment from wrong view. No need to think of macro, micro, cells. Nina. Op 25-okt-2006, om 22:04 heeft Daniel het volgende geschreven: > However, it seems to me that if the mind is to > influence the body somehow, the effects of its influenced should be > measured. > > It does seem reasonable from our > daily > experience that the mind influences the body, we seem to know > \assume it when it > comes to the macro level. However, how can it be that when it comes > to the > micro-level, one does not find evidence of non-material influences > on the body? > (Well, one can always say 'what about quantum mechanics', but all > know nothing > about quantum mechanics, do we? I think that it should be seen that > the mind > influences the cells. It is very strange why effects of the mind on > cells are > not seen). #64712 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:10 am Subject: re:Abhidhamma in Practice 4, language nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you for your answer, which I passed on to Lodewijk. He said: warm greetings to you and next time he would also like to meet your family. I will add a few things, but this is not meant as a debate, and no need to answer again. You answered James and the same: no need for a debate. --------- H: IMO, this is why a habit of regular, mindful introspection (supported by cultivation of calmness and clarity) is so crucial in addition to reading-about and hearing-about. ------- N: Yes, we may listen and read again and again, but we should turn over in our mind what we heard and read, and this again and again. Everyone will do this in his own way. For me, it can be in the kitchen, a favorite place for me. I discussed with Lodewijk that also sa~n~naa, and this is kusala sa~n~naa accompanying understanding, plays an important part. Firm sa~n~naa is called the proximate cause of sati in the Co. We forget so easily what we have heard. We have to remember. --------- H: The direct seeing of the reality of matters usually is far less fearful than the corresponding conceptualizing (story- making ;-) for one who is upset by words of anatta. When one "sees" directly what actually occurs where "the person" is assumed to be, there is seen not only what the reality is, but also that, in fact, nothing has changed, and nothing has been destroyed except some faulty ideas and harmful inclinations. ------- N: What is seen, heard, etc. does not change, it is understanding of dhammas that grows, and thus faulty ideas lessen. Seeing sees colour, hearing hears sound, this does not change, no matter in the past, the present, the future. This is always the case. But there can be more understanding of them. Understanding that is intellectual can change into direct understanding, but not by our will. We can begin to be mindful of colour, sound, seeing, feeling, whatever appears now. We may doubt whether there is mindfulness or thinking, but also doubt is a conditioned dhamma, nothing to worry about. Understanding cannot be clear in the beginning. But the direct seeing is developed insight, and only then dhammas are understood as they are. It develops more slowly than one would wish, but the wishing for it to develop is absolutely counteractive. We have to listen again and again, consider again and again, and develop 'our own' understanding, not understanding from hearsay. ---------- H: As I said to Lodewijk, all the thinking, seeing, tasting, feeling, loving, hating, worrying, delighting-in, and so on that, taken together conceptually, is called "Lodewijk" actually occurs, and I would add that it occurs as part and parcel of a living, dynamic, interrelated flux that, if not obsessed about and not clung to, is amazing and wonderful! ---------------------------------------------------- N: I connect your last remarks with our being born a human, and having the opportunity of hearing Dhamma and the capacity to develop understanding that eventually can lead to freedom from the cycle. ------------ quote N: > I often speak in one sentence about conventional realities and > paramattha dhammas, but how can this be avoided when explaining > Dhamma? It is useful if you mention this to me in future. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree that it is unavoidable. What we all have to work to avoid in that regard, though, I believe is a *confusing* mix of the two modes of speech. In particular, some improper interpreting of figurative speech as literal (i.e., as ultimate) can have the particularly harmful effect of making one believe that conventional volitional actions are impossible, leading to a sense of powerlessness and hopelessness. ----- N: I understand what you mean here. The effect of the Dhamma is not hopelessness but confidence. To conclude, I quote from Kh Sujin's Perfection of pa~n~naa, and as you will see, energy (or effort), kusala chanda, wish-to-do and endurance are necessary: < With regard to the perfection of paññå, most people are longing for paññå, but the perfection of paññå, that is, paññå that understands the characteristics of realities, cannot arise if one does not develop it. Generally people wish to know the truth of realities, but they should carefully investigate whether, at the moment of seeing, of the experience of the other sense objects or of thinking, they have the sincere desire (chanda) to know and to understand the characteristics of the realities that are appearing at those very moments. When someone really sees the benefit of paññå he needs to have energy and endurance, because the development of paññå is a difficult task which takes an endlessly long time. Understanding of the level of listening is only a foundation, it is not the perfection of paññå that is the condition for the realization of the four noble Truths. The perfection of paññå evolves with the development of the understanding of the characteristics of realities that are appearing. This includes the development of understanding of the level of listening, of considering realities, and also of the level of awareness of realities at this moment.> ***** Nina. #64713 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:46 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind - Is this it? dacostacharles Hi ... (all interested), Is the following it (Mind from a Theravadan prospective, and converted to plain and simple English)? The Mind appears to be the space/ground/place where thought arises and fades away. At its most basic level, thought appears to be sensory input (including bodily sensations), memories, feelings/evaluations, formulations/systematizations/linking/concoctions, and a degree of awareness. The degrees of awareness range from unaware/unconsciousness to fully aware, this also includes a distorted awareness where the perception of the object of awareness is not clear or distorted. However, normally, Thoughts/Mind appears to be a complex of the five listed above; what I mean is that it can also be argued that a Thought consists of the aforementioned: sensory perception, feeling, linking, and a degree of awareness. In other words, they are the components of every thought. Volitions (i.e.: desires; the act of willing, choosing, or resolving) are an example of such a complex. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles DaCosta Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 17:31 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Mind Hi Sarah, Your question slipped by me. What I understand by Mind is not important now because I want this first model to be a purely Buddhist view with a Indian view as a reference point. I would like to start with a Theravadan view and then I will expand it to include variations from the other major views (i.e., Mahayana, and Tibetan). Therefore, "What is the Mind, its components and functions," are the first questions. Charles DaCosta #64714 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:27 am Subject: Pannatti: speech and music antony272b2 Dear Group, I've been thinking that music can only be enjoyed if the mind is allowed to proliferate a story beyond the present musical note into the past and future notes. I extended that to speech and found the following transcription I did in 1995 by Mahasi Sayadaw: "If one is constantly mindful, one will just hear what appears on his ear-door, and no more. Now as I am delivering this discourse, you are hearing each sound or syllable of the words that I am uttering. If you concentrate your mind on each syllable that I am pronouncing, you will certainly miss the import and meaning of what I am trying to convey to you. If you just stop short at cognition of the sounds that I make, you will not be able to note them in the //pannatti// way. That is to say you will not be able to form any concept of what you hear." http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Malukyaputta/malukyaputta.html#Hea ring I think I am an auditory person so I can begin to appreciate the ear- door. Once in 1995 I felt I had been reborn into a realm of impermanence (I had been vigorously noting for 3 days and nights and it may have been just confusion and psychosis). In order to think I had to type words into my computer journal, read them and say them out aloud all at the same time. I still get psychotic symptoms after reading something profound on the computer. I start noticing the fonts and colors of the words on the screen more than the meaning of the words. I'd love to know if there is a name for these symptoms. Thanks for listening. with metta / Antony. #64715 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:25 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 561- Compassion/karu.naa and Sympathetic Joy/muditaa(r) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Compassion(karu.naa)and Sympathetic Joy(muditaa)contd Questions i When someone else is hurt we tend to have unpleasant feeling. Can there be compassion at the same time? ii By what kinds of feeling can compassion be accompanied? iii Can one extend loving kindness and compassion at the same time to someone else? iv What is the proximate cause of sympathetic joy? v Why is it said that the function of sympathetic joy is being unenvious? vi Why are loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity called the “Illimitables”? ***** Compassion(karu.naa) and Sympathetic Joy(muditaato) be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #64716 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:26 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 561- Compassion/karu.naa and Sympathetic hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, Questions Question i: When someone else is hurt we tend to have unpleasant feeling. Can there be compassion at the same time? Answer: Yes, but not exactly at the same time. When we see someone else is hurt, there can be moments of compassion when we wish to help him allay his suffering. But there can also be moments of aversion. If we see a person who suffers we may find this an unpleasant sight and because of this, aversion may arise. Thus, compassion and aversion can arise closely one after the other, but not exactly at the same time. The aversion is the close enemy of compassion, which can be easily mistaken for compassion. Whenever there is aversion in such a case it shows that there is no true compassion. Without right understanding, it may be difficult to differentiate which is which. ------------------------------ Question ii: By what kinds of feeling can compassion be accompanied? Answer: Compassion can arise with pleasant feeling or with indifferent feeling. ------------------------------ Question iii Can one extend loving kindness and compassion at the same time to someone else? Answer: Yes, one can extend loving kindness and compassion to someone, but not exactly at the same time. For example, in the case of visiting a sick person, there can be moments of loving-kindness when we give him flowers or wish him well, but there can also be moments of compassion when we notice his suffering. The loving kindness "sees the lovableness of beings", and promotes their welfare, whereas, compassion wants to allay beings' suffering. ------------------------------ Question: iv What is the proximate cause of sympathetic joy? Answer: The proximate cause of sympathetic joy is seeing beings’ success or good fortune (lakkhi-dasaana padatthaanaa). ------------------------------ Question: v Why is it said that the function of sympathetic joy is being unenvious? Answer: The function of sympathetic joy is being unenvious (anissaayanaa rasa), because it prevents the arising of envy or jealousy (issaayanaa) which is based on someone else’s good fortune. The proximate cause of both envy and sympathetic joy is the same: someone else's good fortune. Jealousy arises with the akusala citta which is rooted in aversion, dosa-mua-citta. If there is wise attention and right understanding, sympathetic joy can arise instead of jealousy. That’s why it is said that the function of sympathetic joy is being unenvious. ------------------------------ Question: vi Why are loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity called the “Illimitables”? Answer: These divine abidings are called "illimitables" (appamannas), because when they have been developed in samatha as meditation subjects which condition calm and when, by means of them, jhana has been attained, these “illimitables” are not limited to any particular people, but directed towards all beings, and then they become really unlimited. However, there is “real compassion” of another dimension that can only be fulfilled by the Buddhas. This is called “mahaa karunaa samaapatti nana” one of the six nanas possessed only by the Buddhas. ------------------------------ General: The following is not related to the Questions, but the points I have taken, regarding karuna and mudita, from Nina’s book on Cetasikas. I would be most grateful if Nina could kindly see whether I got them right. [Compassion (karuna), and sympathetic joy (mudita) are among the six sobhana cetasikas which do not arise with every sobhana citta. (Han: What are the other four sobhana cetasikas?) (1) They (karuna and mudita) accompany maha kusala cittas associated with pleasant feeling as well as those associated with indifferent feeling, but only when there is an opportunity for it. (2) They do not accompany the maha-vipakacittas, cittas which are results of kusala kamma of the sense-sphere, because they have living beings as object. (3) They can accompany the maha-kiriyacittas of the arahats. The arahats can abide in true Brahmavihara because they have eradicated all akusala, and good qualities have reached perfection in them. (4) They can accompany the rupavacara cittas of the first, second and third stage of jhana of the fourfold system (and the fourth stage of the fivefold system) but not those of the highest stage of jhana. Thus, they can accompany twelve types of rupavacara cittas. (5) They do not accompany arupavacara cittas because they have living beings as object. (6) They do not accompany lokuttara cittas, since the object of lokuttara cittas is nibbana.] Respectfully, Han #64717 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Khuddakanikaya. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for taking the time to give your list. N: "...I hope this helps" Yes, I'll look to see how many of these I can find. With loving kindness, Scott. #64718 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:29 am Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu nidive Hi Ken H, > Thanks for the information on "consciousness without feature." It > sounds like a glimpse into parinibbana. It can't be the real thing > of course, because parinibbana is without consciousness. Thanissaro > disputes this. If you read his essay on "the flame gone out" you > will be told that there is actually an "essence of flame" that > always remains. (According to Thanissaro, that is.) Yes, it is not parinibbana because there is still the element of consciousness. And in this respect, I think Thanissaro made an error. > > SB: > Regarding Buddhadasa who rejects rebirth as taught by the > > Buddha and claims that nibbana is ultimately the same as samsara, > > you can safely dismiss him as a hard-core heretic. > > I know you don't, I have been trying for years to convince you > otherwise! :-) LOL! That's humourous. > Firstly, I would like to point out that there are places in the > Tipitaka where the Buddha flatly asserts there is no self. > As usual, I can't give references, but Ven. Dhammanado gave a > selection of them on DSG some time ago. He quoted the Buddha as > saying: "In truth and reality, there is no self." If the Buddha did say this, there is no harm in making a change in my understanding. As it is, in truth and reality, there is indeed no self. > Secondly, I am not convinced that the Buddha hid the fact of anatta > from newcomers. Nor do I believe that he in any way sugarcoated the > Dhamma in order to draw people in. Phil and I were discussing this > recently, and Sarah joined in with some useful quotes. I think the Buddha would not declare the truth and reality of no self to a person who is perplexed about whether there is a self or no self. Vacchagotta is an example. It would be better left for him to discover that truth and reality by directly seeing the not-self nature of the five aggregates. Adding fuel to a fire does not put out the fire. > Would you agree that we don't need to "take a position" of any kind? > We just need to listen to, and learn, the Buddha's teaching. We > don't need to worry, "Do I believe this? How am I to prove it for > myself?" Just listening to and learning the Buddha's teaching doesn't bring out the essence and intention of those teachings. > I assume that, by "insight meditation," you are referring to the > development of right understanding, and not to a silly rite or > ritual. If so I agree with what you have said. But I hope you will > agree with me that 'studying the Dhamma' is by no means the same as > 'fastening onto a position.' Yes, studying the Dhamma is not the same as fastening onto a position. Regards, Swee Boon #64719 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:55 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 105 philofillet Hi Nina > Mah?ETissa was not absorbed in the object he experienced, nor > entranced by the details. "He stopped at seeing" is a line that is used, I think. But really there was thinking too, if what he saw were "bones" > He realized when he perceived the woman's > teeth the ``foulness of the body'' and he did not take what he > perceived for ``self''. The perception of the ``foulness of the > body'' can remind us not to see the self in the body, but to realize > bodily phenomena as rúpas which do not stay. I find, personally, that it is a bit difficult because while the foulness is there, intrinsically, and will have its way one way or another, someday, it's not foul at the moment in the lovely woman in question. On the other hand, reflecting that thoughts of lust are harmful to oneself, to the other (by encouraging lust or more likely if I was the one ogling a sense of aversion! :)) and harmful for both, that it obstructs wisdom, causes difficulties - that sort of thing I find more immediately helpful than the foulness of the body - because to the ignorant mind the body does not appear foul. Bhikkhu Bodhi recommends that people who are prone to lust can consider meditating more often using foulness of the body or the charnel ground as a way of wearing down lust of that variety. I remember your series on the Removal of Distracting Thoughts sutta - that was very good. Phil p.s thanks for the invitation in the other thread to continue throwing in comments. I will. And questions. I won't be able to carry on discussion though, unfortunately. Someday I will. p.p.s I ahve a funny story. Naomi saw a picture on the inside cover of a Mahesi (?) Sayadaaw book I have depicting the charnel ground, and was horrified. I tried to explain how it could be helpful, especially for monastics, and also told the story I like of how you and Lodewijk had dinner in a lively restaurant with waiters buzzing around all the while discussing foulness of the body. She said this: "It's easy for her to have that conversation when she's eating in a nice French restaurant, but if she were eating surrounded by pooing cows she couldn't have the same conversation." I kind of know what she means! :) Mah?ETissa saw things as > they are; the paññ?Earising at that moment was to the degree that it > could eradicate all defilements. > > ****** > Nina #64720 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:59 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 106 nilovg Dear friends, There are countless javana-cittas in a day with lobha, dosa and moha, and therefore we should not be heedless. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Saîåyatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Second Fifty, chapter V, § 97, Dwelling heedless) : At Såvatthí was the occasion (of this discourse)... ``I will teach you, monks, of the one who dwells heedless, and of the one who dwells earnest. Do you listen to it. And how, monks, does one dwell heedless? In him, monks, who dwells with the faculty of sight uncontrolled, the heart is corrupted by objects cognizable by the eye. In him whose heart is corrupted there is no delight. Without delight there is no joy. Where joy is not, there is no calm. Without calm one dwells in sorrow. The sorrowful man's heart is not composed. When the heart is not composed, one has not clear ideas. Through not having clear ideas he is reckoned as one who dwells heedless. (And it is the same with regard to the faculties of taste, touch and mind.) And how, monks, does one dwell earnest? In him, monks, who dwells with the faculty of sight controlled the heart is not corrupted by objects cognizable by the eye. In him whose heart is not corrupted delight is born. In one delighted joy is born. When one is joyful the body is calmed. He whose body is calmed feels at ease. Composed is the heart of him who is at ease. When the heart is composed one's ideas are clear. Through having clear ideas one is reckoned as one who dwells earnest. (And it is the same with regard to the faculty of taste, touch and mind) Thus, monks, is one a dweller in earnestness.'' ****** Nina. #64721 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:05 am Subject: Abhidhamma and Practice 6. nilovg Dear friends, We may find it difficult to accept that nama and rupa are ultimate realities and that concepts such as people, animals and things are not. Gradually we may be able to prove to ourselves that life is actually one moment of experiencing one object through one of the six doors. Thus, life is nama and rupa which arise because of conditions and fall away again. Time and again there are objects impinging on the different doorways. When there is a pleasant object attachment is bound to arise, and when there is an unpleasant object, aversion. Defilements have been accumulated and they can arise at any time so long as they have not been eradicated. Defilements are nama which arise because of conditions. When there is no right understanding of nama and rupa we will only have a superficial knowledge of both ourselves and others. We will have wrong understanding of cause and effect in life. Don’t we blame others for our own unhappiness? The real cause of unhappiness is within ourselves. Right understanding of the different namas and rupas which appear is the only way to have less defilements and thus to have less sorrow in life. Namas and rupas can experienced now. There are seeing and hearing time and again but we may never have been aware of them. Still, it is necessary to know them as they are. Seeing is not thinking. Seeing sees and it does not think. When we close our eyes we may think of many things but we cannot see. When we open our eyes something appears which did not appear when our eyes were closed. There is seeing, and seeing sees visible object. Seeing does not see a man or a tree. The development of insight is a kind of study of nama and rupa through the direct experience of them. Namas and rupas which appear one at a time should be ‘studied’ with mindfulness, but each moment of study is extremely short, since mindfulness does not last, it falls away. However, gradually a clearer understanding of realities can be accumulated. Nama and rupa are the objects of the ‘study with mindfulness’, not people, animals or things. Wherever we are, there are in reality nama and rupa, such as seeing, hearing, visible object, sound or hardness. Instead of clinging to them or having aversion towards them we can know them as they are. When we realize that our life is actually nama and rupa which arise because there are conditions for their arising, we can become more patient, even in difficult situations. ****** Nina. #64722 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khuddakanikaya. nilovg Dear Scott, I forgot: Co to the Udana in 2volumes, by Peter Masefield. Connie quotes from this. She also quotes from two later co: The guide, netti pakarana, and The Pi.taka Disclosure (Pe.takopadesa). I have both, but the other works may be items to get first. Nina. Op 26-okt-2006, om 15:05 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Thanks for taking the time to give your list. #64723 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:14 am Subject: about intelligence. nilovg Dear Matheesha, you gave us a link to spoken word, but could you give a summary of it? When short of time it is hard to listen to spoken word. Nina. #64724 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Ken) - In a message dated 10/26/06 1:05:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Ken H., > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" > wrote: > > > >The other kind of one-moment teaching is very different, and is to > be > >found unambiguously in the Theravada texts. It says that dhammas > have > >existed (but no longer exist) in the past, while other dhammas will > >(but do not yet) exist in the future. Every dhamma that does exist > >does so only in the present moment. In other words, anything that > >did, does, or will exist existed, exists, or will exist in the > >timeframe of a single past, present or future moment, respectively. > >Therefore, if there really is an eightfold path that leads out of > >samsara, it must exist in a single moment. Otherwise, it (the NEP) > is > >a mere concept - a figment of the imagination. > > Hmmmm….interesting. I have never heard it explained that way. You > said that this teaching is found in the Theravada texts, but it > isn't found in the suttas. The Buddha doesn't teach this. The > factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are not realities; they don't > exist in single mind moments. So, I guess, by your definition, they > don't exist. So what? They don't exist. Who cares? I don't exist > either and so I will follow the Noble Eightfold Path that doesn't > exist. Emptiness following emptiness. Reminds me of the Heart > Sutra: > > "Also, There is No Truth of Suffering, > Of the Cause of Suffering, > Of the Cessation of Suffering, Nor of the Path." > > Metta, > James > ========================= I would add, BTW, that processes, about which much is made in the Abhidhamma, also do not exist "in the moment," and thus every process would also be "a mere concept - a figment of the imagination" ;-) What was the Buddha or Sariputta or whoever produced the Abhidhamma Pitaka thinking of, Ken? (An ironic, rhetorical question of mine, of course. ;-) My point, Ken? My point is that it is possible to paint oneself into a theoretical corner by obsessively fixing on a concept, "momentariness" in this case, in a way that is less than liberating. There is no question that at any time, it is just that time and no other, and whatever is in effect at that time is all that is then in effect. What more is there to be said about momentariness? Actually, nothing IMO. Abhidhamma itself teaches that rupas, for example, exist for many moments. So even Abhidhamma doesn't fixate on single moments. And the commentaries even teach that a single mindstate goes beyond "the moment" (whatever "the moment" is supposed to be - some zero-duration mental concoction, it seem to me), because there is a period of arising, a period of stasis, and one of decline. But the details are less important, I believe, than the matter of clinging to concept. One of the most important things we can do, I believe, is to engage in introspection to see what it is that actually happens in our mind. And what needs to happen in doing that is not a refining of our pet theoretical schemes, but a letting go of schemes, hardened concepts, reference points, or whatever one calls the results of cognitive proliferation (papa~naca). With metta, Howard #64725 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re:Abhidhamma in Practice 4, language upasaka_howard Hi, Nina In a message dated 10/26/06 6:36:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thank you for your answer, which I passed on to Lodewijk. He said: > warm greetings to you and next time he would also like to meet your > family. > ===================== Yes, that would be nice. Rita would like you both, and I know you both would like her! (A warm "hello" to Lodewijk! :-) With metta, Howard #64726 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:58 am Subject: Q. cetasikas, compassion, sympathetic joy. nilovg Dear Han, I appreciate your answers. I can add something: Answer: The function of sympathetic joy is being unenvious (anissaayanaa rasa), because it prevents the arising of envy or jealousy (issaayanaa) which is based on someone else’s good fortune. The proximate cause of both envy and sympathetic joy is the same: someone else's good fortune. Jealousy arises with the akusala citta which is rooted in aversion, dosa-mua-citta. If there is wise attention and right understanding, sympathetic joy can arise instead of jealousy. That’s why it is said that the function of sympathetic joy is being unenvious. --- N: When jealousy arises we do not like to have it, but there is an idea of: 'I ' do not like to have this. There is clinging to self and we take the jealousy for mine. It has already arisen and we know that it has arisen because there are conditions for its arising. We can learn very gradually that it is a dhamma, that it it not ours. I am glad you mention this: ---------- Han: [Compassion (karuna), and sympathetic joy (mudita) are among the six sobhana cetasikas which do not arise with every sobhana citta. (Han: What are the other four sobhana cetasikas?) ------- N: The three abstinences (virati cetasikas): from wrong speech, from wrong action, from wrong livelihood. There is not always an opportunity for them. Furthermore: pa~n~naa. As you know four maha-kusala cittas, maha- vipakacittas and maha-kiriyacittas are not accompanied by pa~n~naa. ------- H: 4) They can accompany the rupavacara cittas of the first, second and third stage of jhana of the fourfold system (and the fourth stage of the fivefold system) but not those of the highest stage of jhana. Thus, they can accompany twelve types of rupavacara cittas. (5) They do not accompany arupavacara cittas because they have living beings as object. ------- N: The feeling accompanying arupavacaracitta is upekkha, the same as the feeling accompanying the highest stage of rupa-jhana. See Vis. XIV, 157, which gives this as the reason that compassion and sympathetic joy do not accompany these cittas. Whereas compassion and mudita can be accompanied by happy feeling or by upekkhaa. Thank you Han, for taking the trouble answering questions. I am glad to have the opportunity to consider more sympathetic joy. There are many opportunities to appreciate others' kusala, like yours at this moment, but we do not realize that this is mudita. I quote some part of what I wrote about the Brahmaviharas: < When we see the benefit of kusala we shall find out that there are many more opportunities in our daily life than we ever thought for the development of the Brahama viharas. We can rejoice in the praise and honour others receive or in their kusala cittas. Appreciation of someone else’s kusala is one of the ten meritorious actions, it is a way of dåna or generosity. It is anumodana dåna, generosity of thanksgiving or appreciation. Thus, this is a way of developing the Brahma vihåra of sympathetic joy. We can express our appreciation also in speech and gesture. Acharn Sujin said in “Wholesome Deeds”: “The person who rejoices in the wholesome deeds of someone else, has kusala cittas, cittas without attachment, anger, jealousy or other defilements. The appreciation of someone else’s kusala is another way of kusala. Its arising is conditioned by the kusala of someone else....For someone who knows what kusala is, kusala citta has the opportunity to arise more often than for someone who does not know what kusala is. Besides, we do not have to wait for a specific moment to have kusala citta.... When we have clear understanding of kusala and akusala, we can develop more wholesomeness, we can develop kusala dhammas so that these become more powerful and are able to gradually eliminate defilements.” It is so true that we, for the development of kusala, do not have to wait for specific moments. When we consider more the Brahma vihåra of sympathetic joy we can find the opportunities when and where to develop it.... we can have sympathetic joy about the honour and praise others receive. It is natural that there may also be moments of jealousy or conceit while we think about ourselves and we wonder why we did not receive praise or honour. It is important to know the difference between kusala and akusala and to realize that we have accumulated a great deal of defilements. We can have sympathetic joy not only about the happiness of people who are close to us, but even with regard to strangers. Sympathetic joy can be without limits. ***** Nina. #64727 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:09 pm Subject: (No subject) nilovg Hi Phil, Seeing foulness and developing insight could be combined by Mahatissa, this was no problem. why not? But there is not a special schedule: this first, than that. There were conditions that it happened as it happend. He was not attached to beauty, and thus he could see a woman as a group of bones, it came naturally to him. He truly lived the brahma life. Nina. #64728 From: han tun Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. cetasikas, compassion, sympathetic joy. hantun1 Dear Nina (and Sarah), Thank you very much for your additional points and the very valuable comments at the end of your message, drawing from the “Brahmaviharas” that you had written, and from Acharn Sujin,s “Wholesome Deeds”. I like your remark that we can find many more opportunities in our daily life than we ever thought for the development of the Brahama viharas. For example, it is a reminder for me that sympathetic joy can arise with appreciating others’ kusala cittas, like you just did with my kusala cittas that had arisen while answering your questions. I usually associate mudita with others’ material gains and fame and honour. It is a good point to realize that it can also arise with others’ kusala cittas which are not visible like material gains. I will, from now on, be reading the messages at DSG with mudita, as they are contributed by members with their kusala cittas. Respectfully, Han #64729 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:42 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 105 gazita2002 Hello Phil, Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Nina . Bhikkhu > Bodhi recommends that people who are prone to lust can consider > meditating more often using foulness of the body or the charnel > ground as a way of wearing down lust of that variety. > > I remember your series on the Removal of Distracting Thoughts > sutta - that was very good. > Azita: can u point me in the direction of this please. My distracting thoughts at the moment are more dosa related. Have taken on a new job and its very stressful and confidence shaking (me,me,me,). I think its got a lot to do with Mana as well. "I'm not skilled enuff; may I'll stuff up etc etc" Patience, courage and goodcheer, - if only...... azita #64730 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:34 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 105 philofillet Hi Azita > > I remember your series on the Removal of Distracting Thoughts > > sutta - that was very good. > > > > Azita: can u point me in the direction of this please. My > distracting thoughts at the moment are more dosa related. This is MN 20, which offers several remedies or antidotes (though Nina doesn't like that word :) ) for distracting thoughts. Nina would you like to repost that series? And B.Bodhi has a good talk on it in his great series of talks on the Majjhima Nikaya. The one on MN 19 is also great for encouraging us to let go of aggravating trains of thought - it can be done and personally I don't think it matters if clinging to self-image is involved. Cutting off trains of thought that are doing us harm and may condition doing harm to others is good, plain and short, whether it's mostly rooted in lobha and delusion or not. Leaves more room for wholesome factors to begin to germinate a bit more, maybe. Or maybe not - no need to think about that. Cutting off the harmful trains of thought is enough on its own. Deep accumulated tendencies cannot be eradicated in this way, of course. But no reason not to gently get rid of the bugbear that is biting us right now - by being observed with mindfulness, it often enough subsides - that's the MN 19 thing. No forcing it out and putting a more pleasant thought in its place. But just developing the habit of keeping an eye on the way our thoughts run. Personally, these days I start the day with a simple meditation during which I just note thoughts and whatever else arises (Mahasa Sayadaw method) and it seems to have me doing it more often during the day, which is good I think. Nothing fancy, nothing sublime. But very practical for tidying the mental factory a bit, which I think makes us happier more often, the way having a tidy house does. Phil http://www.bodhimonastery.net/mntalks_audio.html #64731 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:42 pm Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu ken_aitch Hi James, --------- J: > You said that this teaching is found in the Theravada texts, but it isn't found in the suttas. --------- Some suttas are not spelt out in Abhidhamma terminology, but with the help of the ancient commentaries we can see that no other interpretation is plausible. --------------- J: > The Buddha doesn't teach this. --------------- That depends on your interpretation. Nina was saying recently that anatta should be read into every sutta, even if it is not expressly mentioned. I think Howard added that anicca and dukkha should be treated the same way. Every word of the Tipitaka should be understood in the context of the entire Tipitaka. To interpret one section in isolation from the others is to invite wrong view. -------------------- J: > The factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are not realities; they don't exist in single mind moments. So, I guess, by your definition, they don't exist. So what? They don't exist. Who cares? I don't exist either and so I will follow the Noble Eightfold Path that doesn't exist. Emptiness following emptiness. Reminds me of the Heart Sutra: "Also, There is No Truth of Suffering, Of the Cause of Suffering, Of the Cessation of Suffering, Nor of the Path." -------------------- Oh dear, the Heart Sutra! Do you see what happens when the "emptiness" is interpreted in isolation from the rest of the Tipitaka? The heart of the dhamma is ripped out and thrown away. :-) Ken H #64732 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu ken_aitch Hi Howard, ------------------ <. . .> H: > I would add, BTW, that processes, about which much is made in the Abhidhamma, also do not exist "in the moment," and thus every process would also be "a mere concept - a figment of the imagination" ------------------- Yes, as we have often agreed, a process of cittas is a concept. The Buddha (who explained the cause of every conditioned dhamma) used the factually accurate concept of a citta-process to explain how the present citta was conditioned by the immediately preceding citta, which was conditioned by the citta that preceded it and so on. Even so, it is only the presently arisen citta (with its cetasikas and rupas) that constitutes absolute reality. ----------------------------- <. . .> H: > My point is that it is possible to paint oneself into a theoretical corner by obsessively fixing on a concept, "momentariness" in this case, in a way that is less than liberating. There is no question that at any time, it is just that time and no other, and whatever is in effect at that time is all that is then in effect. What more is there to be said about momentariness? Actually, nothing IMO. ------------------------------ It tells us that the entire universe exists only in the present moment. The implications of this are enormous and endless. Birth, life and death are ultimately real only to the extent that they exist in one, fleeting moment. Any contrary view of them is a wrong view. It is hard to see the world in this absolutely real way. It is not enough that we know the ultimate unreality of people and places: we also have to know about the dhammas that actually do exist. There is a lot to learn because, apart from the little Dhamma-study we have already undertaken, we have no knowledge of ultimate realities. ---------------------------------------- H: > Abhidhamma itself teaches that rupas, for example, exist for many moments. So even Abhidhamma doesn't fixate on single moments. And the commentaries even teach that a single mindstate goes beyond "the moment" (whatever "the moment" is supposed to be - some zero-duration mental concoction, it seem to me), because there is a period of arising, a period of stasis, and one of decline ---------------------------------------- I agree it is not easy. However, I can see a difference between, say, a process of dhammas (concept) and an actual dhamma (reality). The former does not arise, persist or fall away in one moment (or sub-moment), but the latter does. ---------------------------- H: > . But the details are less important, I believe, than the matter of clinging to concept. ----------------------------- I agree that looking for more details is less important than correctly understanding the details we already have. But every little right understanding opens the way for more details to be sought, acquired and understood. --------------- H: > One of the most important things we can do, I believe, is to engage in introspection to see what it is that actually happens in our mind. And what needs to happen in doing that is not a refining of our pet theoretical schemes, but a letting go of schemes, hardened concepts, reference points, or whatever one calls the results of cognitive proliferation (papa~naca). --------------- If I may be melodramatic for a minute: isn't that the voice of Mara? Doesn't Mara (a personification of wrong view) desperately want us to put theory aside and go it alone? What is it that goes alone? (!!!) You say we need introspection to see what it is that "actually happens in our mind" but what is 'introspection?' What is 'the mind' that introspection sees into? As I understand those commonly used terms, they are concepts that refer, not to realities, but to other concepts. Hence the expression, "drowning in a sea of concepts." :-) Ken H #64733 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 10/26/06 10:14:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > H: > One of the most important things we can do, I believe, is to > engage in introspection to see what it is that actually happens in our > mind. And what needs to happen in doing that is not a refining of our > pet theoretical schemes, but a letting go of schemes, hardened > concepts, reference points, or whatever one calls the results of > cognitive proliferation (papa~naca). > --------------- > > If I may be melodramatic for a minute: isn't that the voice of Mara? ---------------------------------- Howard: Er, no - haven't talked with him for a while, in fact! ;-) ----------------------------------- > Doesn't Mara (a personification of wrong view) desperately want us to > put theory aside and go it alone? What is it that goes alone? (!!!) > ----------------------------------- Howard: Ken, clinging to views is SO easily excused by us unawakened "intellectuals"! It is Mara himself, namely deep-set ignorance (and our ultimate Adversary), who provides our excuses. What I am calling for is merely being willing to take off the blinders and actually look at what is happening in "the moment" that you are so enamored of, and doing so without jumping to intellectually pidgeonhole it. We have to look at what happens and come to see that it isn't at all what we thought it to be. ------------------------------------- > > You say we need introspection to see what it is that "actually happens > in our mind" but what is 'introspection?' What is 'the mind' that > introspection sees into? As I understand those commonly used terms, > they are concepts that refer, not to realities, but to other concepts. > Hence the expression, "drowning in a sea of concepts." :-) > > Ken H > ========================= With metta, Howard #64734 From: Jaran Jainhuknan Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 105 jjnbdal --- gazita2002 wrote: > Hello Phil, Nina > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Nina > . Bhikkhu > > Bodhi recommends that people who are prone to lust can > consider > > meditating more often using foulness of the body or the > charnel > > ground as a way of wearing down lust of that variety. > > > > I remember your series on the Removal of Distracting > Thoughts > > sutta - that was very good. > > > > Azita: can u point me in the direction of this please. My > distracting thoughts at the moment are more dosa related. Have > taken > on a new job and its very stressful and confidence shaking > (me,me,me,). I think its got a lot to do with Mana as well. > "I'm not > skilled enuff; may I'll stuff up etc etc" > > Patience, courage and goodcheer, - if only...... > azita > Dear Azita: When you figure this out, do let me know. For me, challenges and stress prompt more mana..so it seems. Good luck, Jaran #64735 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 105 sarahprocter... Hi Azita, Jaran & Phil, > --- gazita2002 wrote: > > Azita: can u point me in the direction of this please. .... S: Go to 'Useful Posts' in the files http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ and down to: "Vitakka-Santhana Sutta, MN20 (Removal of Distracting Thoughts)" for lots of good material Metta, Sarah p.s Jaran, always good to see you chipping in. Sorry we didn't see you again when we were last in Bkk.... I think someone mentioned you'd recently got married (??). Congratulations if this is correct! Hope to see you (both) next time. ======= #64736 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:37 pm Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu ken_aitch Hi Swee Boon, ------------ <. . .> > > SB: > Regarding Buddhadasa who rejects rebirth as taught by the > > Buddha and claims that nibbana is ultimately the same as samsara, > > you can safely dismiss him as a hard-core heretic. > > I know you don't, I have been trying for years to convince you > otherwise! :-) LOL! That's humourous. ------------ I think you meant to snip the reference to Buddhadasa and leave in the reference to Thanissaro. (Instead of the other way around.) Never mind - no harm done. :-) ------------------------ <. . .> KH: > > He quoted the Buddha as saying: "In truth and reality, there is no self." > > SB: > If the Buddha did say this, there is no harm in making a change in my understanding. As it is, in truth and reality, there is indeed no self. ------------------------ And knowing that (intellectually, at least) has not harmed us, has it? It hasn't sent us mad. That is why I wonder about the story of Vacchagotta: ------------------------------- <. . .> SB: > I think the Buddha would not declare the truth and reality of no self to a person who is perplexed about whether there is a self or no self. Vacchagotta is an example. It would be better left for him to discover that truth and reality by directly seeing the not-self nature of the five aggregates. Adding fuel to a fire does not put out the fire. ------------------------------- True, but I would like to add that Vacchagotta was no fool. He attained Stream-entry not long after that encounter with the Buddha. That means he must have had prodigious panna - accumulated over many, many lifetimes of right study and right practice. I wonder if his problem was that he accumulated an imbalance of saddha over panna. With his colossal, overwhelming faith, he would have believed anything the Buddha told him. So the Buddha had to be careful not to give the wrong impression. To Vacchagotta, the words, "In truth and reality there is no self" would have meant, "You did have a self, but I have taken it from you," and he would have believed that implicitly. As I was saying, those words do not have that effect on us. And that is not because we are smarter than Vacchagotta was. To the contrary, it is because we lack his vast accumulations of saddha. All that might be wrong of course - just thinking out loud. --------------------------------------------- <. . .> SB: > Just listening to and learning the Buddha's teaching doesn't bring out the essence and intention of those teachings. --------------------------------------------- It depends on what you mean by listening and learning. If those things are done with panna then they are pariyatti - the factors that lead to direct to mundane insight (patipatti). Of course, there is no control. If it was a simple matter of saying "OK, I'll listen and learn with panna!" then ignorance, samsara, and life as we know and love it, would be over in no time. :-) Ken H #64737 From: Jaran Jainhuknan Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 105 jjnbdal Dear Sarah: > p.s Jaran, always good to see you chipping in. Sorry we didn't > see you > again when we were last in Bkk.... I think someone mentioned > you'd > recently got married (??). Congratulations if this is correct! > Hope to see > you (both) next time. Thank you. You don't miss a thing. I now reside in Bangkok, but still travel often. Hope to see you next time in Bkk. Best Regards, jaran #64738 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A possible nice tool for DSG ? sarahprocter... Hi Sebastien, (Joop & all) --- s.billard@... wrote: > Sorry I reply to myself but I have set up a theravadin search engine, > free of > spam and adverstising : > http://s.billard.free.fr/dhamma/ > > I began to use french ressources only, but I added english ones as well > so DSG > members can use it :) .... S: Thx for mentioning it. I'm sure it'll work well. I just did a little experiment on search engines for quickly finding past DSG posts on a topic one is interested in. I tried 'dhammastudygroup space' on your link, but I think it hasn't yet built up its database as it didn't find anything (takes time), but on the google web option, found 121 entries. On www.dhammastudygroup.org, we have 3 search engines installed. Searching for the same (just in dsg archives in this case of course), I got the following: Google: 89 entries Atomz: 270 entries Freefind: 269 entries. **** Of these, Atomz gives the most information (at a glance one also gets more idea of whether it's what one is looking for) and also one can search it either by 'score' or 'date'. The higher the 'score' the more likely the link is to be relevant in general. Once, I've clicked on an entry, I use 'ctrl + F' with 'space' or some other term, to find the relevant posts. (Usually, I'd narrow down the first search by including something more, like 'milinda' or 'Kathavatthu'. ..... Joop, while doing this research, I also thought of you and keyed in 'Buddhadasa' into Atomz -- lots of findings, over 70, I believe. So if you don't wish to be restricted by what U.P. has to offer, this is the way to go:-)). Keep searching 'til satisfied..... Metta, Sarah ======== #64739 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:42 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 562- Understanding/pa~n~naa (a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Chapter 34 Understanding (paññå) There are many kinds and degrees of understanding. There can be understanding which is knowing the benefit of wholesomeness and the disadvantages of unwholesomeness, there can be understanding which stems from contemplation on the shortness of life. These kinds of understanding can arise even when one has not listened to the Dhamma. When one has studied the Dhamma there can be intellectual understanding about ultimate realities, about kamma and vipåka, about nåmas and rúpas which can be experienced through six doors, and, when understanding develops further there can be direct understanding of ultimate realities, of nåma and rúpa. Direct understanding of realities can develop to the highest wisdom which eradicates all defilements. ***** Understanding (paññå)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #64740 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 105 nilovg Dear Jaran, Good to see you. I also want to congratulate you. I hope you are in Bgk when Lodewijk and I are there in January. A trip to K. Kracan is organised. We also go to Dhammahome in Chiengmai afterwards. Nina. Op 27-okt-2006, om 7:59 heeft Jaran Jainhuknan het volgende geschreven: > Thank you. You don't miss a thing. I now reside in Bangkok, but > still travel often. Hope to see you next time in Bkk. #64741 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu sarahprocter... Hi KenH & Swee Boon, --- ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Swee Boon, > > ------------- > <. . .> > SB: > I am not sure if Thanissaro speaks of an "unbound consciousness", > -------------- > > According to my sieve-like memory, there was such a quote quite > recently on DSG. Sorry I can't be more specific. .... S: I have a sieve-like memory for these things too, but just googled these terms in my gmail account (which I just use for recent DSG post searches), It brought up this translation. I don't know if it helps: .... "One neither fabricates nor mentally fashions for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is *totally unbound right within*. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" -- MN 140 (tr. Thanissaro Bhikkhu) The Pali for "Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within" is: Anupaadiya.m na paritassati. Aparitassa.m paccatta.myeva parinnibbaayati. I checked a couple of the words: Paccatta =individually Paritassati = to be excited, worried, show a longing for B.Bodhi translates it as: "When he does not cling, he is not agitated [S: doesn't show any longing?]. When he is not agitated [S: doesn't long for anything?], he personally attains Nibbana." Metta, Sarah ===== #64742 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. cetasikas, compassion, sympathetic joy. nilovg Dear Han and Scott, I am also reminded by Scott that conceit arises so often after kusala citta. I notice that the thought, 'I did this very well' (after posting for example) comes up after kusala citta, but this is not a reason to be distressed or to be silent, not posting anymore. Scott, you would rather be silent, but what are the cittas like when we are silent? The fact that conceit arises so often should not stop us from having metta and karuna for others. Don't we want to share what we find precious? We can do this wholeheartedly, but of course there are many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas. Lobha always follows, that is a fact. So good to know this. It is beneficial to develop more understanding so that we know: kusala and akusala are conditioned dhammas. We should be grateful that the Buddha taught us more understanding of our different cittas. The Visuddhimagga repeats that ignorance also conditions kusala. This is a great exhortation: develop right understanding no matter whatever you do. Kusala without the development of understanding will not lead to the eradication of defilements. Nina. Op 27-okt-2006, om 0:04 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I like your remark that we can find many more > opportunities in our daily life than we ever thought > for the development of the Brahama viharas. #64743 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 105 nilovg Dear Azita and Phil, Kh Sujin would say: this is a test for our understanding. It is a challenge and we can learn from it. We can see that when the object is just right for dosa it arises. it is conditioned by lobha: when things are not the way we want them to be we have aversion. Your example is very good, it is very human. When we learn to what extent such akusala is conditioned it may help to take all those happenings less personal. As to the Sutta about the Removal of Distracting Thoughts, we should read it with right understanding. I wrote: < We have to remember throughout this sutta that the bikkhu who lives his bhikkhu life to the full is developing vipassana with whatever he is doing and his goal is arahatship. The Bhikkhu has left his household life and all the sense pleasures involved with it. His lifestyle is as far removed from the laylife as is heaven from earth. When he abandons akusala thoughts, he is aware of nama and rupa, there is no view of self who is doing this. The Buddha speaks here about the bhikkhu who is going to attain arahatship. Then pañña can have perfect control over his thoughts, there will not be any opportunity for akusala thoughts. When we read this sutta we have to keep this in mind. > We read that he should go to the teacher. The co states: <... he should go to another bhikkhu he respects and he should asks questions concerning the meaning of the Dhamma. In this way his doubts will be allayed and he can abandon delusion. He should listen to the Dhamma at the appropriate time with respect and thus the meaning of what he hears will become clear to him. Thus he can abandon ignorance of the Dhamma. He should inquire as to the right cause that can bring the appropriate result. In this way he can abandon ignorance of the Dhamma.> The answer is: listen more, consider more so that there will be more understanding of the cittas which are cause (kusala and akusala), and the cittas that are vipaakacittas, for example. The unpleasant experiences through the senses are vipaaka, but how are our reactions to these? Do we blame others, or the situation, or is there understanding of cause and effect in life? wishing you some more good cheer, Nina. Op 27-okt-2006, om 2:42 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > Have taken > on a new job and its very stressful and confidence shaking > (me,me,me,). I think its got a lot to do with Mana as well. "I'm not > skilled enuff; may I'll stuff up etc etc" #64744 From: "Sebastien aka French Dread aka Mesa" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:29 am Subject: Re: A possible nice tool for DSG ? sbillard2000 Hi Sarah, yes I am aware of the problem. This search engine in fact uses the main Google index but display only the pages belonging to the websites I specified (including DSG). But the custom search engine doesn't display pages labeled as "supplemental" in Google. And DSG archivess are for now labeled as "supplemental" : http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en&ie=UTF- 8&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2006-16,GGLG:fr&q=site%3Awww%2Edhammastudygroup%2Eorg Google is working on this bug. Anyway you will hopefully find with this personnalized search engine many other quality ressources ;) Sebastien http://s.billard.free.fr > I just did a little experiment on search engines for quickly finding past > DSG posts on a topic one is interested in. > > I tried 'dhammastudygroup space' on your link, but I think it hasn't yet > built up its database as it didn't find anything (takes time), but on the > google web option, found 121 entries. #64745 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: > J: "On the general question of DO and multiple lifetimes, please > consider the implication of the fact that under the reverse order of > DO sorrow and suffering come to an end only with the cessation of > ignorance, that is to say, sorrow and suffering must continue until > ignorance has been completely eradicated (no matter how long that may > take). > > "...Any further thoughts?" > > I have no doubt regarding multiple lifetimes, for one. I didn't really think you had any doubt (those particular remarks of mine were addressed to Joop ;-)) > Secondly I see > DO as it is described or set out for didactic purposes to only appear > to be linear, this being an illusion caused by words, the rules of > grammar and by discursive thought. I see DO as highlighting certain particular conditioning factors out of the many that apply, those that are key to the continuation of or (in the case of the reverse order) the escape from life in samsara. > Is it correct to see DO, rather, > as showing that each moment is a complex arising borne upon a > beautiful weave of conditions? (Including the brief period being > discussed elsewhere at death and birth in the next existence). > Yes, DO does help to show how complex the matter of conditions is, in the sense that there is a whole sequential series of these conditions but only a single point at which any lessening of their effect can occur. Of course, the nature of dhammas as being (multiply) conditioned and of momentary duration is also well illustrated in other parts of the teachings. Jon #64746 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:56 am Subject: No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, Swee Boon, Nina, Howard, James & all There are lots of good discussions going on which I have in mind here. --- ken_aitch wrote: >Firstly, I would like to point out that > there are places in the Tipitaka where the Buddha flatly asserts there > is no self.... > Secondly, I am not convinced that the Buddha hid the fact of anatta > from newcomers. Nor do I believe that he in any way sugarcoated the > Dhamma in order to draw people in. .... > Sarah quoted K Sujin as saying: "We are learning to understand the > elements - studying the element of citta, the element of cetasika, the > element of rupa. So there's no question about 'how' and 'I' and 'me' > at all." ***** S: Yes, I agree and as Nina wrote in her Abhidhamma series: "Since we always cling to the concept of a person or the human body we fail to see them as different elements which do not stay, even for a second. We are always attached to people and to self and this causes us sorrow." Of course, it doesn't mean we go around talking about 'elements' all day :-). But, here we're discussing dhammas (realities), so we'd better understand more about what they are. Later in Nina's same letter in the series, she wrote: "We should not try to avoid thinking of people or things, thinking is a reality, it arises. However, we should know that the concepts which are object of our thinking are not real in the ultimate sense; they are different from nama and rupa which can be experienced one at a time through the appropriate doorways. We form up concepts because of a combination of many different experiences which we remember." .... S:I also heard K.Sujin saying that when there's still the idea of 'applying' the teachings, it seems as if there is the self who'd like the result so much and who tries so hard too, instead of understanding the presently appearing dhamma now. As for flatly asserting there is no self, no me, you, or anyone else, I like the Yamaka Sutta, SN22:85 (Bodhi transl) in which Sariputta certainly doesn't 'sugarcoat' the message when hearing of Yamaka's wrong views: ..... " 'What do you think, friend Yamaka, do you regard form as the Tathagata?' - 'No, friend.' - 'Do you regard feeling...perception....volitional formations....consciousness as the Tathagata?' - 'No, friend.' 'What do you think, friend Yamaka, do you regard the Tathagata as in form.....apart from form....in consciousness....as apart from consciousness?' - 'No, friend.' 'What do you think, friend Yamaka, do you regard form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness [taken together] as the Tathagata?' - 'No, friend.' 'What do you think, friend Yamaka, do you regard the Tathagata as one who is without form, without feeling, without perception, without volitional formations, without consciousness?' - 'No, friend.' 'But, friend, when the Tathagata is not apprehended by you as real and actual here in this very life*, is it fitting for you to declare: 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, a bhikkhu whose taints are destroyed is annihilated and perishes with the breakup of the body and does not exist after death?' 'Formerly, friend Sariputta, when I was ignorant, I did hold that pernicious view, but now that I have heard this Dhamma teaching of the Venerable Sariputta I have abandoned that pernicious view and have made the breakthrough to the Dhamma.'" ***** S: Yamaka could rejoice and understand the message which he'd failed to grasp when the other bhikkhus had tried to help. (He became a sotapanna at this time). Of course, we could substitute any name for a person who cannot be discerned 'as real and actual here in this very life.' Even if we do not always rejoice at the time when we hear about elements, about namas and rupas, we may reflect on what we've heard and rejoice later (like the bhikkhus who heard the Mulapariyaya Sutta). *BB gives the Pali for this phrase as: "Di.t.th'eva dhamme staccato thetato tathaagato anupalabbhiyamaano." (In MN22, the Buddha also uses the phrase "Bhikkhus, since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established...") .... S: As we've discussed many times, even what we call 'personality' or 'character' are merely changing cittas and cetasikas arising and falling away. They accumulate, but don't belong to any self. So long as there is still the idea of 'oneself' or 'others' actually existing, defilements can never be eradicated. This is why the sotapanna's sila, brahma viharas and all kinds of kusala are purer - such kusala is not taken for being his or hers in anything other than a conventional sense. As Nina also recently wrote: "Life is very short. We are fortunate to be born in the human plane where we can still hear the teachings, and we do not know what the next life will be.' Also, "Anatta is there, all the time, even not always expressively in words." Metta, Sarah ======= #64747 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: > Jon: "On the general question of DO and multiple lifetimes, please > consider the implication of the fact that under the reverse order of > DO sorrow and suffering come to an end only with the cessation of > ignorance, that is to say, sorrow and suffering must continue until > ignorance has been completely eradicated" > > Joop: It's not a question but an interpretation of D.O. I'm tolerant > enough to give the three-lifetimers room for their interpretation, I was really asking about your reading of the 'If no this, then no that' passage as applied to becoming. As you know the standard recital of the reverse order of DO begins with reference to the cessation of ignorance. What do you understand by the cessation of ignorance? > but I still want to know if they also want to accept AND discuss any > other interpretation. Well I can only speak for myself, but I'm of course happy to discuss any other interpretation. Jon #64748 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. cetasikas, compassion, sympathetic joy. scottduncan2 Dear Nina and Han, I've been noticing more and more desire to cultivate the Brahmaviharas of late. But as to the below: N: "Scott, you would rather be silent, but what are the cittas like when we are silent? The fact that conceit arises so often should not stop us from having metta and karuna for others." No, that is true. Conceit doesn't seem to stop these from arising but, as you say below, then akusala arises again. I like finding the term 'maanatthaddha', which is mentioned in Note 469 to the Braahma.nasa.myutta in Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Sa.myutta Nikaaya. He renders it as 'stiff with conceit'. Given that conceit opposes the pliancy etc. of citta and cetasika when it has arisen, it is easy to see how this factor conditions the stiffness of the mind at moments it is present. This is how I would understand my desire to be silent - as the 'stiffness of conceit"; a sort of paralysis borne of conceit causing those moments of consciousness to seize up and giving rise to the thought, 'I'll be silent therefore'. That thought, of course, is conceit as well, in part. Considering the process for a moment, I think there was also the fact that the thought, 'I'll be silent, therefore' was part of a process of penetration. In this context an awareness of the presence of conceit (say kusala, say related to pa~n~na knowing) conditioned more conceit and the process bogged down, stiffened up. This did lead to the post on silence which allowed for our discussion which is conditioning more understanding. N: "Don't we want to share what we find precious?" I do notice this desire. It too conditions the conceit for me, I also notice. I find that the joy that arises due to the Dhamma conditions conceit. In fact, I notice that a lot of akusala arises in me in response to conviction about the Buddha's Dhamma, and this is often conceit-related. It seems as if an inflation of the 'personality' is a common accompaniment to the arising of powerful impersonal dhammas. This would be termed 'defensive' from a mundane perspective and is possibly a reaction related to lobha - clinging to self. It seems that thinking of sharing the Dhamma also leads to thoughts of how special I must be since this conviction in the Dhamma has arisen. This is akusala, of course, and can be easily seen as self claiming special status, or stiffness in the process of consciousness, or whatever. Again, the thought, 'I will be silent, therefore' comes. Even now, considering this, more conceit as I think what a self-centred person I am, not like others here. N: "We can do this wholeheartedly, but of course there are many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas. Lobha always follows, that is a fact. So good to know this." Very true. This knowing counteracts the lack of pliancy. N: "...develop right understanding no matter whatever you do. Kusala without the development of understanding will not lead to the eradication of defilements." Yeah. Very true. Thanks, Nina. With loving kindness, Scott. #64749 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Identifying Wrong Views? sarahprocter... Hi Antony, Thanks for asking your good questions about wrong views here. Others have answered, but I also promised to give your questions some thought: --- Antony Woods wrote: > I have a question about wrong views: > "And how is one drawn into present things? Herein, monks, an > uninstructed ordinary man who is unskilled in the Dhamma, > untrained in the Dhamma, looks upon > form as self, or self as possessed of form, or form as in self, or > self as in form. <...> > Antony: Ordinary people (like me) don't say in casual > conversation: "I look upon form as self" etc. so the wrong view is > subverbal. .... S: Yes, much of the wrong views arising are 'subverbal' as you say. Don't we from time to time really think the various khandhas (such as the rupas of the body) are mine and so on? Likewise with the feelings and other khandhas? .... > How do I begin to identify my wrong views during the day? Or are they > so immediate and changing all the time that they can't be verbalized? .... S: They can only be 'identified' or known when they appear. It's not a matter of what is verbalized, but of the wrong belief when we take ourselves, other people and things around us to actually exist as entities, as atta in some regard. ... > In the past few days I've been grieving with the strong belief that > my deceased cat Suzy (1984-2001) had a historically factual soul. .... S: I'm sorry too about Suzy. Of course there can be lots of grieving without any wrong view arising. However, any idea of a lasting soul is not correct. There are only ever rapidly changing namas and rupas which constitute what we call a person or a cat. I'm sorry, but I couldn't follow the part about perception, but I saw Scott responded. Off-list (in response to a note of mine sent to you in error - intended for another Antony who helps me with surfboard matters!), you referred to some comments about flashbacks and a comment I'd made a long time ago which you said found very helpful: S:“the seeing and thinking are real but the images and concepts are purely imaginary. Let them go.” Please let us know if you have anything to add on this. You also mentioned that you were learning more about the meaning of images and concepts and referred to some other comments I'd made which you're still trying to prove wrong with regard for a desire for lots of friends and papanca. I think others would be glad to hear about this, if you'd care to add more on list. It's all very interesting. I'm always very interested to hear your deep reflections, Antony. Metta, Sarah p.s We visited Australia in August, but didn't stop in Sydney this time or arrange any meetings. ======= #64750 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pannatti: speech and music sarahprocter... Hi Antony, (Scott & all), --- Antony Woods wrote: > I've been thinking that music can only be enjoyed if the mind is > allowed to proliferate a story beyond the present musical note into > the past and future notes. ..... S: I'm not sure it's a question of being 'allowed to proliferate...'. I think there is just bound to be proliferation while lobha remains as root cause. It's not a matter of trying to stop such proliferation at all, but anytime, awareness can be aware of lobha, thinking or any other dhamma appearing, very, very naturally. .... > > I extended that to speech and found the following transcription I did > in 1995 by Mahasi Sayadaw: > > "If one is constantly mindful, one will just hear what appears on > his ear-door, and no more. Now as I am delivering this discourse, > you are hearing each sound or syllable of the words that I am > uttering. If you concentrate your mind on each syllable that I am > pronouncing, you will certainly miss the import and meaning of what I > am trying to convey to you. If you just stop short at cognition of > the sounds that I make, you will not be able to note them in > the //pannatti// way. That is to say you will not be able to form > any concept of what you hear." > http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Malukyaputta/malukyaputta.html#Hea > ring .... S: There will still be concepts - if they are not concepts of what is heard, they are concepts of what is concentrated on or something else. The development of satipatthana is not about some special focus, but the development of awareness and understanding of what is conditioned already. ... > I think I am an auditory person so I can begin to appreciate the ear- > door. Once in 1995 I felt I had been reborn into a realm of > impermanence (I had been vigorously noting for 3 days and nights and > it may have been just confusion and psychosis). .... S: We are all attached to sounds and all other sense objects. What you describe as 'vigorously noting' for 3 days and nights is exactly the kind of danger I've referred to in the past with regard to what I see as wrong practice. Yes, it can certainly lead to psychosis for those with such tendencies. .... >In order to think I > had to type words into my computer journal, read them and say them > out aloud all at the same time. > > I still get psychotic symptoms after reading something profound on > the computer. I start noticing the fonts and colors of the words on > the screen more than the meaning of the words. I'd love to know if > there is a name for these symptoms. ... S: I don't know, Antony. I wonder if you are still following a practice of intensive noting or paying special attention? If so, like the flashbacks we discussed, my recommendation is to 'let it go' again. It's not the Middle Way. I think I may have mentioned the example of John Nash and his schizophrenic episodes. In an interview I saw, he said he stopped paying attention to his fantasies or hallucinations and then they stopped bothering him. Of course, all thinking and paying attention to particular objects (such as flashbacks, dreams, sense objects, anything) is conditioned, but if there is the wrong view that such attention or noting is of use, then it can be very dangerous for some people - often intelligent people. Pls let me know how this sounds. Scott may have further comments too. > Thanks for listening. S: A real pleasure. I'd like to listen to you more often! Glad to hear you're doing well. Metta, Sarah ======== #64751 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:36 am Subject: No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Ken H, Swee Boon, Nina, Howard, James & all > > There are lots of good discussions going on which I have in mind here. Oh brother, why did you put my name on this heavily-laden anatta post?? I just had to read it. Are you trying to kill me?? ;-)) Really, I am absolutely fed up with all of this anatta stuff! Aren't you embarrassed that you hardly write about anything else? I know I would be. I wouldn't want to be known as a 'one trick pony'. ;-)) Anyway, to change the subject off of this infuriating anatta topic, I have been wondering about the phrase so often used about cittas that they are "rooted" in kusala or "rooted" in akusala; "rooted" in dosa or "rooted" in adosa, etc. What does "rooted" mean exactly? "Rooted" makes me picture one thing feeding off of something else, but I don't think that quite fits the model of the citta. So, do you think you could you stop telling me that I don't exist for a moment to answer my question?? ;-)) I know it will be difficult, but maybe you can lower your standards. ;-)) Metta, James #64752 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pannatti: speech and music scottduncan2 Dear Sarah and Anthony, I personally dig music. A: "I've been thinking that music can only be enjoyed if the mind is allowed to proliferate a story beyond the present musical note into the past and future notes." I've thought about this too. I think that music is music and not sound because of the illusion of continuity. It all hangs together as sensuous sound clung to and made into a whole. A: "I think I am an auditory person so I can begin to appreciate the ear-door." Same here. A: "Once in 1995 I felt I had been reborn into a realm of impermanence (I had been vigorously noting for 3 days and nights and it may have been just confusion and psychosis)." What did it sound like? S: "We are all attached to sounds and all other sense objects. What you describe as 'vigorously noting' for 3 days and nights is exactly the kind of danger I've referred to in the past with regard to what I see as wrong practice. Yes, it can certainly lead to psychosis for those with such tendencies." Yeah. If one's thinking tends towards disorganisation one oughtn't, I think, mistake the mundane mind's attempts at reconsolidation for practise. A: "In order to think I had to type words into my computer journal, read them and say them out aloud all at the same time. I still get psychotic symptoms after reading something profound on the computer. I start noticing the fonts and colors of the words on the screen more than the meaning of the words. I'd love to know if there is a name for these symptoms." Perhaps 'disorganised by rapture'. Isn't 'psychosis' in part just a particular mode of thinking? I see where Sarah is coming from below: S: "...Of course, all thinking and paying attention to particular objects (such as flashbacks, dreams, sense objects, anything) is conditioned, but if there is the wrong view that such attention or noting is of use, then it can be very dangerous for some people - often intelligent people." Yeah. Well for all, eh? With loving kindness, Scott. Yeah, that makes sense to me. #64753 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:17 am Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu nidive Hi Ken H, > I think you meant to snip the reference to Buddhadasa and leave in > the reference to Thanissaro. (Instead of the other way around.) > Never mind - no harm done. :-) It is my personal opinion that Thanisaro does not reject rebirth and neither claims that nibbana is ultimately the same as samsara. It would be wrong of me to put him in the same category as Buddhadasa. I owe much of my understanding of the Dhamma to his translation works put up freely on accesstoinsight, and it would be ingratitude of me to accuse him of such when the evidence points otherwise. Regards, Swee Boon #64754 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 562- Understanding/pa~n~naa (a) hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, The text: When one has studied the Dhamma there can be intellectual understanding about ultimate realities, about kamma and vipåka, about nåmas and rúpas which can be experienced through six doors, and, when understanding develops further there can be direct understanding of ultimate realities, of nåma and rúpa. Han: Can you kindly give me Pali words for: “intellectual understanding about ultimate realities” and “direct understanding of ultimate realities.” Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #64755 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:12 am Subject: Weekend Trip upasaka_howard Hi, all - We're leaving this morning, Friday (circa Long Island, NY, USA), with friends for a weekend trip. Will return Sunday evening, and will reply to any messages after that. With metta, Howard #64756 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu nidive Hi Sarah, > Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is *totally > unbound right within*. > Paccatta =individually > Paritassati = to be excited, worried, show a longing for > B.Bodhi translates it as: > "When he does not cling, he is not agitated [S: doesn't show any > longing?]. When he is not agitated [S: doesn't long for anything?], > he personally attains Nibbana." I don't find anything wrong with Thanissaro's translation. In fact, from this sutta, I see that Thanissaro's translation is of a higher standard than B.Bodhi's. From my repeated readings of Thanissaro's works, unbound is a term he uses for expressions related to nibbana. Of course, one is unbound right within. No one can be unbound right without, right? "Right within" is a more meaningful phrase than "personally" or "individually". "Personally" or "individually" suggests a self that is unbound or attains nibbana, but "right within" does not suggest such a self, as I see it. Regards, Swee Boon #64757 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) sarahprocter... Hi James, Thanks for your good-humoured post:-)) --- buddhatrue wrote: > Anyway, to change the subject off of this infuriating anatta topic, > I have been wondering about the phrase so often used about cittas > that they are "rooted" in kusala or "rooted" in akusala; "rooted" in > dosa or "rooted" in adosa, etc. What does "rooted" mean > exactly? "Rooted" makes me picture one thing feeding off of > something else, but I don't think that quite fits the model of the > citta. ... S: Excellent question. In a way what you say at the end is about it. We can say that all akusala (unwholesome) cittas and cetasikas are rooted in lobha, dosa or moha. Actually, moha (ignorance) is always a root - that means when there is moha, all the accompanying states are 'feeding off' this ignorance. When the citta and cetasikas are rooted in lobha, it means that in addition to 'feeding off' the moha, they are also 'feeding off' or rooted in attachment. Attachment and ignorance are then arising together and conditioning the other states by 'root' condition. When the 24 conditions are listed, root (hetu) condition is given first, indicating its importance. When there's lobha root, there's no dosa root or dosa conditioned states. Conversely, when dosa(aversion) is the root, other states are conditioned by it, but no lobha arises. For example, with dosa as root, the feeling is always unpleasant. It's different from the feeling accompanying lobha or moha on its own. (For kusala, there are the opposite roots, of course). ... > So, do you think you could you stop telling me that I don't exist > for a moment to answer my question?? ;-)) I know it will be > difficult, but maybe you can lower your standards. ;-)) .... S: The truth is that the states we call Sarah or James are always changing and by appreciating this, we get to understand a little more about anatta. Oops...it creeps in all the time. As you say, a 'one trick' pony...:-)). Btw, I like the quote you gave about how all 3 characteristics are concealed. I agree that aniccan and dukkha should be stressed as well. Metta, Sarah p.s I'm copying the first two paragraphs on 'Root-condition' from Nina's book 'conditions': "The first condition mentioned in the "Patthana" is root-condition, hetu-paccaya. There are three akusala hetus: lobha, attachment, dosa, aversion, and moha, ignorance, and these can have many degrees. Lobha can be a slight attachment or it can be clinging, greed or covetousness. Dosa can be a slight aversion, or it can be as intense as anger or hatred. Moha is ignorance of realities, it is ignorance of what is kusala or akusala, and ignorance of the four noble truths.[17] Moha is the root of everything which is akusala, it arises with each akusala citta. There are three sobhana (beautiful) hetus: alobha, non-attachment or generosity, adosa, non-aversion or kindness, and amoha, panna or right understanding. The three sobhana hetus can have many degrees, they can even be lokuttara (supramundane), when they accompany lokuttara citta which experiences nibbana. These six roots are actually cetasikas or mental factors which accompany citta. They are called root, since they are the firm foundation of the citta. Just as a tree rests on its roots and receives sap through the roots in order to grow, evenso are the akusala cittas and sobhana cittas dependent on the presence of the roots and they cannot occur in their absence. Thus, the roots are powerful conditions for the cittas which are rooted in them." ***************** ========== #64758 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon (& Ken H) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > I don't find anything wrong with Thanissaro's translation. In fact, > from this sutta, I see that Thanissaro's translation is of a higher > standard than B.Bodhi's. .... S: I was just finding a source for your discussion with Ken H to try and help out. I wasn't buying into any evaluation of the merits of the translations. I'll leave that to you two. .... > > From my repeated readings of Thanissaro's works, unbound is a term he > uses for expressions related to nibbana. > > Of course, one is unbound right within. No one can be unbound right > without, right? .... S: I don't really know what it means and I've never studied TB's use of language much. I was 'brought up' on the PTS translations and then more recently BB's. You tell me as you're a lot more familiar with his use of terms! .... > > "Right within" is a more meaningful phrase than "personally" or > "individually". "Personally" or "individually" suggests a self that is > unbound or attains nibbana, but "right within" does not suggest such a > self, as I see it. .... S: I don't know, Swee Boon, 'unbound right within' sounds most odd to me, but then as I say, I haven't made the study that you and Ken H have of his writings. Of course, it always comes down to the understanding rather than the language. If we say in translation that 'one attains nibbana' or 'one personally attains nibbana', it depends whether it's understood as just a use of conventional language to refer to particular cittas and cetasikas or whether it's understood as suggesting a self. Let's see what Ken H and others say. I'm glad I'm not a translator:- ). Metta, Sarah ======= #64759 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:58 am Subject: No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) nidive Hi Sarah, > (In MN22, the Buddha also uses the phrase "Bhikkhus, since a self > and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and > established...") Thank you for pointing out this passage from MN 22! Thanissaro translates it as "Monks, where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality ...". I don't see there is any deviation from B.Bodhi's translation. I will let Thanissaro's translations speak for himself. Regards, Swee Boon #64760 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:09 am Subject: K.Sujin says there can be control! nidive Hi Sarah, I received my copy of Survey and ADL today. I started with Survey on the chapter "The Natural Way of Development". On page 356, she quoted the Lesser Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant's Footprint about the control over the organ of sight. She says that this kind of restraint can be achieved through the development of panna that understands the realities that appear as they are. I think this suggests that she doesn't teach "absolute no control", which I am very glad to know of. Regards, Swee Boon #64761 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Weekend Trip nilovg Hi Howard, I hope you have/had a nice weekend, walking along the Delaware river. I want to tell friends here that we are leaving for a trip on Sunday, returning Wednesday, so that I will be silent. Nina Op 27-okt-2006, om 15:12 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > We're leaving this morning, Friday (circa Long Island, NY, USA), with > friends for a weekend trip. Will return Sunday evening, and will > reply to any > messages after that. #64762 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:23 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 107 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 15 The Functions of Tadårammaùa and Cuti An object which impinges on one of the senses can be visible object, sound, odour, flavour or tangible object. Each of these objects is rúpa. They arise and fall away, but they do not fall away as rapidly as nåma. As we have seen (in chapter 12), rúpa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. When a sense object which is rúpa impinges on one of the senses, a process of cittas occurs which arise in a particular order and perform each their own function while they experience that sense object. The first citta of that process, the pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta, five-door-adverting-consciousness, does not arise immediately. First there have to be bhavanga-cittas and these are: atíta-bhavanga, past bhavanga, bhavanga-calana, vibrating bhavanga, and bhavangupaccheda, arrest-bhavanga or last bhavanga before the current of bhavanga-cittas is arrested. These bhavanga- cittas do not experience the rúpa which impinges on one of the senses. The pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta, which is a kiriyacitta, adverts to the object and is then succeeded by one of the dvi-pañca-viññåùas (seeing-consciousness, hearing-consciousness, etc.) which is vipåka, the result of a good deed or a bad deed. There is, however, not only one moment of vipåka in a process, but several moments. The dvi-pañca- viññåùa is succeeded by sampaìicchana-citta (receiving-consciousness) which is vipåka and this citta is succeeded by santíraùa-citta (investigating-consciousness) which is also vipåka. The santíraùa- citta is succeeded by the votthapana-citta (determining- consciousness) which is kiriyacitta. This citta is succeeded by seven javana-cittas which are, in the case of non-arahats, akusala cittas or kusala cittas. All cittas, starting with the pañca-dvåråvajjana- citta, experience the object which impinges on one of the senses. Counting from the atíta-bhavanga, fifteen moments of citta have elapsed when the seventh javana-citta has fallen away. If the rúpa which has impinged on one of the senses and atíta-bhavanga arose at the same time, that rúpa can survive two more moments of citta, since the duration of rúpa equals seventeen moments of citta. Thus, after the javana-cittas there can be two more moments of citta which directly experience the object. These cittas, which are vipåkacittas, are tadårammaùa-cittas or tadålambana-cittas. They perform the function of tadårammaùa or tadålambana, which is translated as ``registering'' or ``retention''. Tadårammaùa literally means ``that object''; the citta ``hangs on'' to that object. ******* #64763 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:34 am Subject: Abhidhamma and Practice, 7. nilovg Dear friends, Mindfulness (sati) is nama which arises with a wholesome moment of consciousness. We cannot induce mindfulness whenever we want it, but it can arise when there are the appropriate conditions. All namas and rupas in our life arise only when there are the appropriate conditions, not because of our will. The condition for right mindfulness is intellectual understanding of what nama and rupa are: realities which appear through the six doorways. Nama and rupa which appear now – thus, realities, not ideas - are the objects about which right understanding should be developed. When we read in the Buddhist scriptures time and again about the realities which appear through the six doors or we listen to talks about nama and rupa, and we understand what we read or what we hear, then the intellectual understanding can condition the arising of mindfulness. Even one moment of mindfulness is valuable because it can condition another moment later on and thus right understanding can grow. The development of insight is the highest form of wholesomeness, it is the only way to eradicate attachment, aversion and ignorance. Mindfulness of the nama or rupa which appears now is the way to develop insight. Someone may believe that doing all one’s actions in a day with thoughtfulness is awareness, but if there is no awareness of nama and rupa that appear one at a time, insight is not developed. When one, for example, follows what one’s hands and feet are doing in a day one does not learn anything about nama and rupa, about what is real, about impermanence. In the development of insight we do everything as usual, but in our daily life there can be mindfulness of a nama or a rupa, a moment of ‘study with mindfulness’, study through the practice. When my husband takes my hand, there is, as we say, a ‘human contact’. What are the realities? There is attachment and this is real, we do not have to try to suppress it. There can, in a very natural way, be study with mindfulness of a nama or a rupa. What appears through the body-sense? Not a person, not my husband. Heat or cold, hardness or softness can appear through the body-sense. We do not have to think about it, it can be directly experienced. Through mindfulness we can prove that no person is experienced through the body-sense, that, in truth, a person does not exist. What we take for a person are different namas and rupas appearing one at a time, and they do not stay. Clinging to people brings sorrow; eventually I will have to take leave from my husband, nothing is permanent. Through the development of insight, clinging to the concept of a person who exists can be eradicated. When there is more right understanding of nama and rupa we will have a different view of the events of our life. We like to make plans but often things do not happen the way we would like them to. Our good and bad deeds (kamma) are the causes in our life which bring their results in the form of pleasant and unpleasant experiences. When we understand that our life is nama and rupa which arise because of their own conditions, not because of our will, we will be less attached to pleasant results and less inclined to blame others for unpleasant things we experience. There are only nama and rupa and we are not master of them. Through the development of insight we will become more patient, we will have more loving-kindness and compassion. Thus, the development of insight is to the benefit of other people as well. ***** Nina. #64764 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:27 pm Subject: degrees of pa~n~naa nilovg Dear Han, this is an important subject, but difficult to give definitions in Pali. Your question touches on: the difference between intellectual understanding about ultimate realities” and “direct understanding of ultimate realities.” Do keep asking about this, it is very suitable for discussion. ---------- Han: The text: When one has studied the Dhamma there can be intellectual understanding about ultimate realities, about kamma and vipåka, about nåmas and rúpas which can be experienced through six doors, and, when understanding develops further there can be direct understanding of ultimate realities, of nåma and rúpa. Han: Can you kindly give me Pali words for: “intellectual understanding about ultimate realities” and “direct understanding of ultimate realities.” ---------- N: The Visuddhimagga ch XIV, 7,8, speaks about: sutta-maya-pa~n~na, cinta-maya-pa~n~naa and bhavanaa-maya-pa~n~na. But we have to be careful about the context, it refers also to Bodhisatta and Pacheka Buddhas. Different meanings in different contexts. What is direct understanding is: vipassanaa pa~naa. From the first stage of insight on there is direct understanding. Samma-di.t.thi of the eightfold Path is direct understanding. Also pa~n~naa as faculty, and as bala, power. There are also the expressions pariyatti and pa.tipatti. It is not so that pariyatti is only book knowledge, when one applies pariyatti one begins to study with awareness the nama or rupa appearing now. Pa.tipatti refers to the development of direct understanding. In the suttas we read about listening, asking questions, discussing, but even while listening awareness can begin to be mindful of nama and rupa. Still, this implies a beginning pa~n~naa. We all begin like this. How can there be immediately direct understanding, impossible. Kh Sujin often speaks about sacca-~naa.na: having firm understanding of what the Path is, what the object of vipassana, kicca-~naa.na, which is already the development of awareness, kata~naa.na: realisation of the truth. But, at a higher stage, sacca-~naa.na and kicca-~naa.na are not given up. These three phases are in the Co to the Dhamma cakkha pavattanasutta. The Book of Analusys, Ch 12, 525 gives definitions of awareness, which is here the trans;ation of sampaja~n~na. We read about investigation, search, etc. and this also refers to vipassana. In the definitions the borderline is not clearcut. I have only given a few thoughts. I really appreciate your question and this is a subject we should continue to discuss. Nina. #64765 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:17 pm Subject: No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) philofillet Hi James > I have been wondering about the phrase so often used about cittas > that they are "rooted" in kusala or "rooted" in akusala; "rooted" in > dosa or "rooted" in adosa, etc. What does "rooted" mean > exactly? "Rooted" makes me picture one thing feeding off of > something else, but I don't think that quite fits the model of the > citta. Very important topic! Absolutely central to Dhamma (as anatta is, but never mind.) Google "Roots of Good and Evil" and you'll find a wonderful little book by our friend Ven. Thera. Phil #64766 From: han tun Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] degrees of pa~n~naa hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation, and I really appreciate it. Why I asked that question was to have a clear idea of the “basics” in starting a new chapter on understanding/pa~n~naa. There will definitely be “degrees” of development in every subject, not only in “understanding.” What I am looking for is the “basics” to start with. The degrees of development can come later. If I were asked that question, I would reply that: (1) “intellectual understanding” means sutta-maya-pa~n~na and cinta-maya-pa~n~naa combined, and “direct understanding” means bhavanaa-maya-pa~n~na. or (2) “intellectual understanding” means pariyatti, and “direct understanding” means patipatti, and pativedha will come towards the end. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > this is an important subject, but difficult to give > definitions in > Pali. Your question touches on: the difference > between intellectual > understanding about ultimate realities” > and “direct understanding of ultimate realities.” > Do keep asking about this, it is very suitable for > discussion. > ---------- #64767 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 105 gazita2002 Hello Sarah, Phil, Nina, Jaran, thanx for the links and comments. have printed out lots to read from yr link, Sarah. Jaran, when I've discovered a 'cure' I'll let u know - I think it will be arahatship :-( and BTW congratulations. See u in Bkk in Jan, maybe,if you're not travelling elsewhere. I just realised what the title of this post is: Ab. in daily life. that's exactly perfect - where else can we go for support except right now, that's the only time that awareness can arise and know the present moment, be it full of lobha, dosa, moha or whatever. Not to say that those kilesa wont arise immediatly afterwards - sati is like a pinhole in the curtain of delusion, letting lite in for such a brief moment. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Azita, Jaran & Phil, > > > > --- gazita2002 wrote: > > > Azita: can u point me in the direction of this please. > .... > S: Go to 'Useful Posts' in the files > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ > and down to: > > "Vitakka-Santhana Sutta, MN20 (Removal of Distracting Thoughts)" > > for lots of good material > > Metta, > > Sarah #64768 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:42 pm Subject: Antaraaparinibbaayati: "attainer of Nibbaana in the interval" scottduncan2 Dear All, Bhikkhu Bodhi writes: "...If we understand the term antaraaparinibbaayi literally, as it seems we should, it then means one who attains Nibbaana in the interval between two lives, perhaps while existing in a subtle body in the intermediate state...Though the Theravaadin proponents argue against this interpretation of antaraaparinibbaayi...,the evidence from the suttas leans strongly in its favour..." (Note 65, Bojjha.ngasa.myutta, Sa.myutta Nikaaya, pp. 1902-1903.) This relates to the discussion of the cuti citta. I'll add the sutta references Bh. Bodhi refers to tomorrow. I wonder how anantara and samanantara conditions relate to this. Any comments? With loving kindness, Scott. #64769 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu rjkjp1 Dear All Is this relevant. An old letter from Dhammanando bhikkhu -http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php...33364&st=60 Citing the relevant suttas is unlikely to be persuasive to those who have fallen for Thanissaro's ...... . A good example of this is the following passage from the Alagaddūpamasutta, which is one of the starkest and most uncompromising assertions of the non-existence of self.... until Thanissaro gets his hands on it: attani ca attaniye ca saccato thetato anupalabbhamāne (MN. 22; also cited in the Kathāvatthu's debate on the puggalavāda, Kvu. 68) And here are some extracts from an old article of mine discussing this phrase... First I cite seven translations of it: Dhammanando: "...since in truth and reality there obtains neither self nor what belongs to self..." Ñāṇamoli/Bodhi: "...since a self and what belongs to a self are not apprehended as true and established..." Thanissaro: "...where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality..." B.C. Law: "...But both soul and that which belongs to soul being in truth, and forever, impossible to be known..." I.B. Horner: "But if Self and what belongs to Self, although actually existing are incomprehensible..." Mahāmakut Tipiṭaka: "...meua attā lae borikhān neuang duai attā bukkhon theu ao mai dai, doey khwām pen khong jing, doey khwām pen khong thae..." Mahāchulalongkorn Tipiṭaka: "...meua thang ton lae khong thii neuang kap ton ja yang hen mai dai, doey khwām pen khong jing, doey khwām pen khong thae..." Then my comments: Of the seven renderings above, those of Horner and Law are completely off the map, while the remaining five are more or less defensible so far as purely philological considerations go. There are two key terms in the passage that give rise to disagreement: firstly, the participle "anupalabbhamāne"; secondly, the phrase "saccato thetato". How one conceives the meaning of these will determine how one interprets the passage; and how one interprets the passage will determine how one goes about translating it. The problem, of course, is that every translator's interpretation of the above phrases will be determined - or at least influenced - by his prior assumptions about the Buddha's teaching. Let's start with anupalabbhamāne. This is the present participle of the passive form of the verb upalabhati, inflected in the locative case. In front of it is placed the negative particle na ('not'), which changes to an- in accordance with the rules of euphonic junction. Upalabhati means to obtain, get or find. So in the passive voice it would mean to be obtained, gotten or found. With the addition of the negative particle 'na' the meaning would be "not to be found." Here's one familiar example of the verb, to be found in every Indian logic textbook: vañjhāya putto na upalabbhati. "A son of a barren woman is not to be found." (Or as western philosophers would phrase it, " 'Son of a barren woman' does not obtain."). Elsewhere the same will be predicated of "horns of a hare", "flowers in the sky", etc. And here arises the first point of controversy among translators and interpreters of this sutta: does the phrase "not to be obtained" mean the same as "not exist"? Ñāṇamoli, Bodhi and myself would answer yes. A mystically-inclined monk like Thanissaro would answer no. Unsurprisingly Thanissaro has chosen a rendering ("not pinned down") that stresses the epistemic or cognitive, and would tend to imply that a self does (or at least might) exist, but one that is too inscrutable to say anything about. To continue, when the verb na upalabbhati is made into a present participle, the meaning would be "non-obtaining" (or more precisely, a "not-being-obtained-ness"). When this present participle is inflected in the locative case, then various meanings are possible, and here arises the second point of controversy. What function does the locative have in this context? There are three possibilities: Spatial or situational stipulative: "Where there is a non-obtaining of self..." Temporal stipulative: "When there is a non-obtaining of self...." Causative: "Because there is a non-obtaining of self..." Ñāṇamoli, Bodhi and I of course favour the causative, for the other two would leave a loophole that there might be some time or place where self does obtain. Thanissaro of course favours a reading that will leave his mysticism intact. So here too it's a case of our prior assumptions determining how we translate. Now for "saccato thetato". Sacca means true or a truth; theta means sure, firm, or reliable, or something that has these features. Adding the suffix -to turns these words into adverbs. Here I'm not really sure about the relative merits of the above translations, or even if there is a difference between "X does not obtain as a truth" or "X does not in truth obtain." Not that this matters greatly; the crux of the matter is obviously the word anupalabbhamāne. The difference between my old rendering and the Ñāṇamoli/Bodhi one is that I had taken saccato thetato to be an adverbial qualification of anupalabbhamāne, whereas Ñāṇamoli and Bodhi make it more like an adjectival qualification of "self and what belongs to self." I now think that their rendering is more likely to be correct. At least it seems to accord better with the Ṭīkā to this sutta. Best wishes, Dhammanando Bhikkhu #64770 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) nilovg Hi James, this is the link: Nina. Op 28-okt-2006, om 1:17 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Very important topic! Absolutely central to Dhamma (as anatta is, but > never mind.) Google "Roots of Good and Evil" a #64771 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:37 pm Subject: Re: Fwd: Retreat inspiration was Name change in Canberra sukinderpal Hi Sarah, > Thx for your good comments too! Always nice to hear from you guys in > Bangkok:-). Anything special from the Sat discussions? Sorry for the late response. As you know K. Sujin was away last Saturday, however the week before that while reading the Survey, we came upon the idea of 'space' being one of the three unconditioned dhammas. This puzzled me and we didn't go into it as this was towards the end of the session. But thanks to your discussion with Plamen, it is now somewhat clear. Usually there isn't much to report on, unlike when you and Jon are around ;-). Metta, Sukin . #64772 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:59 pm Subject: No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > ... > S: Excellent question. In a way what you say at the end is about it. We > can say that all akusala (unwholesome) cittas and cetasikas are rooted in > lobha, dosa or moha. Actually, moha (ignorance) is always a root - that > means when there is moha, all the accompanying states are 'feeding off' > this ignorance. Thanks for your explanation, but I still don't get it. I am having trouble with this metaphor of "roots"- it just doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Did the Buddha ever use this metaphor? To quote from Nina's book: "They are called root, since they are the firm foundation of the citta. Just as a tree rests on its roots and receives sap through the roots in order to grow, evenso are the akusala cittas and sobhana cittas dependent on the presence of the roots and they cannot occur in their absence." I don't agree with this; I don't believe the Buddha taught this. According to the Buddha, the mind is not dependent on the defilements for its existence. The mind is naturally pure, naturally luminous, and it is the outside factors of the defilements which makes the mind impure. From the Pabhassara Sutta: "Luminous, monks, is the mind.1 And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2} http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an01/an01.049.than.html Metta, James #64773 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:04 pm Subject: No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James > > Very important topic! Absolutely central to Dhamma Oh brother, could we please stop making everything so "central to dhamma"! ;-)) What is central to dhamma depends on the person and the circumstance. (as anatta is, but > never mind.) Google "Roots of Good and Evil" and you'll find a > wonderful little book by our friend Ven. Thera. I've read it before. Very good book. I found the title to be about the roots of good and evil in human behavior, not the supposed 'roots' in cittas. Did I miss something? > > Phil > Metta, James #64775 From: "jcmendoza1000" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:56 am Subject: Does anyone know where I can ask questions about Theravada? jcmendoza1000 To Everybody: I would like to ask if almost all animals can recall their former life as devas and brahmas do and if I'm right that all devas and brahmas can recall their former life. -JC #64776 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Identifying Wrong Views? antony272b2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply. You wrote: > Dear Anthony, > Form stands for visible object. We think we see a person or a cat. In > reality it is only what appears through the eyes, colour, that is > seen but we take it for a being. Seeing a drawing of a cat or seeing > a cat: this is perceiving an image in both cases. It is different > from seeing which sees only what appears through eyes. A cat cannot > impinge on the eyesense. A: Could this be expressed in a different way, that what is seen is *more* than just a "cat" (instead of *only* colour and *not* a "cat"). Isn't the problem that the mind puts labels on things and then doesn't investigate further? Thanks / Antony. #64777 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 105 nilovg Dear Azita, I appreciate your remark very much. It shows that you are finding the cure already. Nina. Op 28-okt-2006, om 2:44 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > I just realised what the title of this post is: Ab. in daily life. > that's exactly perfect - where else can we go for support except > right now, that's the only time that awareness can arise and know the > present moment, be it full of lobha, dosa, moha or whatever. #64778 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. cetasikas, compassion, sympathetic joy. nilovg Dear Scott, your examples are helpful and makes one consider more. Phil warned many times against lobha arising when finding comfort in the Dhamma. When I believe that I have confidence in the Dhamma it is so much mixed with lobha: attachment to having an anchor, a refuge. Especially when I notice pleasant feeling, I think: beware, beware. I do not trust it! This is all thinking. Before the first stage of insight arises, we do not know exactly what is kusala, what is akusala. We can think, but they are gone already, how can their characteristics be precisely known? We do not know yet the characteristic of nama as different from rupa, nor do we know citta as being different from cetasika. The akusala cetasikas cause citta to be akusala. I just heard this on tape. Since I cannot find out anyway at this moment, I am inclined not to think about it for a long time. Nina. Op 27-okt-2006, om 12:52 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > It seems that thinking of sharing the Dhamma also leads to thoughts of > how special I must be since this conviction in the Dhamma has arisen. > This is akusala, of course, and can be easily seen as self claiming > special status, or stiffness in the process of consciousness, or > whatever. Again, the thought, 'I will be silent, therefore' comes. > Even now, considering this, more conceit as I think what a > self-centred person I am, not like others here. #64779 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:30 am Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu ken_aitch Hi Swee Boon (and Sarah), Even with Sarah's expert tips on operating the three search-engines, I have been unable to find the "unbound, unconditioned consciousness" quote that I claimed to have seen on DSG. Maybe I dreamt it! ----------- SB: > It is my personal opinion that Thanisaro does not reject rebirth and neither claims that nibbana is ultimately the same as samsara. It would be wrong of me to put him in the same category as Buddhadasa. I owe much of my understanding of the Dhamma to his translation works put up freely on accesstoinsight, and it would be ingratitude of me to accuse him of such when the evidence points otherwise. ----------- Yes, ATI is a helpful site. The people behind it, however, have a secret agenda. Sorry for sounding paranoid, but I have no doubt that Thanissaro and his students believe in an eternal self (or a self of some kind) and they use ATI to convince people that the Buddha believed in it too. They are perfectly entitled to do that, of course, but I want people to know what is going on (especially before they refer newcomers to that site). Please read my post # 34782 (of July 2004) and tell me what you think. Ken H PS: I have just had a quick look at Rob K's (and Ven Dhammanando's) contribution to the thread. It is much more scholarly than mine! I look forward to your thoughts on that too. KH #64780 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:00 am Subject: Appamada - a loose end sarahprocter... F/W message From: "Andrew Thelander" ............................................................. Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 17:24:32 +1000 Hi Sarah I wanted to post to dsg but am forbidden because apparently an email to me bounced. Anyway, while I work on that, perhaps you can post this for me. I was reading in SN and came across the word "appamada", usually translated as "diligence" or "zeal". It's not in the DSG glossary but there are 3 useful posts on it - Phil and Larry looking at the Nyanatiloka Dictionary definition and (oddly?) an excerpt from Nina's Cetasikas referring to heedlessness. I can't find appamada in CMA or the Visuddhimagga. My book by Ven. Analayo has an obscure footnote referring to "the commentarial understanding of the related term 'appamada' as undistracted mindfulness" [the other term being discussed was satipatthana]. So, my question: where does appamada fit in to the scheme of citta and cetasika? As far as I can see, this is a loose end. The useful posts don't address it. SN (BB's p 1551) states that all wholesome states are "rooted in" appamada. I am trying to comprehend this in an Abhidhammic sense. Any help would be greatly appreciated. All well here. Hope likewise at your end. Best wishes Andrew #64781 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:03 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 563- Understanding/pa~n~naa (b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Understanding(paññå)contd Understanding, paññå or amoha, is among the six sobhana cetasikas which do not accompany each sobhana citta. It is one of the three beautiful roots, sobhana hetus. The two sobhana hetus which are non-attachment, alobha, and non-aversion, adosa, accompany each sobhana citta, but understanding does not. Whenever we perform deeds of generosity or observe morality understanding may or may not accompany the kusala citta. But when we apply ourselves to mental development, bhåvanå, which comprises studying the teachings and explaining them to others, the development of samatha and the development of vipassanå, understanding has to accompany the kusala citta. ***** Understanding (paññå)to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #64782 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:55 am Subject: Re: Antaraaparinibbaayati: "attainer of Nibbaana in the interval" scottduncan2 I'll add the sutta references Bh. Bodhi refers to: "This interpretation, adopted by several non-Theravaada schools of early Buddhism, seems to be confirmed by the Purisagati Sutta (AN IV 70-74), in which the simile of the flaming chiip suggests that seven types (including the three kinds of antaaraparinibbayaati) are mutually exclusive and have been graded according to the sharpness of their faculties. Additional support comes from AN II 134, 25-29, which explains antaaraparinibbayaati as one who has abandoned the fetter of rebirth (upapattisa.myojana) without yet having abandoned existence (bhavasa.myojana)." Sa.mmyutta Nikaaya, Bojjha.ngasa.myutta Note 65, p. 1903. Scott. #64783 From: "jcmendoza1000" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:47 am Subject: Having trouble finding these suttas and their name and number... jcmendoza1000 TO EVERYBODY: -Sutta that says to honor devas and they would help us as a mother to their child. If there are suttas that tell us to honor brahmas similar to the one above. -Sutta that says for one who can tell a direct lie there is no evil he won't do. Thanks. -JC #64784 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Identifying Wrong Views? nilovg Dear Anthony, I do not see it that way. There is only one citta at a time. There are many cittas succeeding one another. Seeing sees what appears through eyesense. Afterwards other cittas put labels on and these cittas think of concepts, experiencing an object through the mind-door. Nina Op 28-okt-2006, om 10:48 heeft Antony Woods het volgende geschreven: > A: Could this be expressed in a different way, that what is seen is > *more* than just a "cat" (instead of *only* colour and *not* > a "cat"). Isn't the problem that the mind puts labels on things and > then doesn't investigate further? #64785 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada - a loose end nilovg Dear Andrew T, good to hear from you, it is a long time ago we heard from you, and I was wondering how you were. You have to look at pamada: mada is intoxication. Pa: all around. Pamada: heedlessness. Appamada: a negation, heedful or diligent. When heedless, one does not know what one is doing, like being drunk. Appamada: the Buddha exhorted the bhikkhus, also shortly before passing away: be diligent. This is with regard to satipatthana. We should not waste the precious moments we are in human life and can still listen to the Dhamma and develop understanding. Nina. Op 28-okt-2006, om 12:00 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > As far as I can see, this is a loose end. The useful posts don't > address > it. SN (BB's p 1551) states that all wholesome states are "rooted in" > appamada. I am trying to comprehend this in an Abhidhammic sense. #64786 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada - a loose end sarahprocter... Hi Andrew T, > I was reading in SN and came across the word "appamada", usually > translated as "diligence" or "zeal <...> > So, my question: where does appamada fit in to the scheme of citta and > cetasika? > > As far as I can see, this is a loose end. The useful posts don't > address > it. SN (BB's p 1551) states that all wholesome states are "rooted in" > appamada. I am trying to comprehend this in an Abhidhammic sense. <...> S: The following is from an earlier message I wrote: which you may not have seen: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60490 > Dhp21 "Appamaado amatapada'm pamaado maccuno pada'm" "Heedfulness is the path to the deathless heedlessness is the path to death." Also a commentary note to the last sentence from the Mahaparinibbana Sutta you quoted: "'Ananda, among these': among these 'five hundred monks' sitting in the pavilion. 'The one who is the most backward': the one who is last in terms of virtue. It was referring to Aananda Thera that he said this. 'Achieve with vigilance': You should successfully perform all your duties with no absence of mindfulness. Thus ['As a landlord of great wealth lying on his deathbed would explain to his sons the value of his property']did the Blessed One, while lying on his deathbed, give all the advice he had given for forty-five years by putting it into the single word 'vigilance' (appamaada)."< S: I take it to refer to sati in particular. As your quote indicated, all wholesome states are said to be rooted in appamada (SN 45:140). In a note to his translation of the Dhp verse quoted above, Narada says that "appamaada, literally, means non-infatuation, i.e. ever-present mindfulness, watchfulness or earnestness in doing good. The ethical essence of Buddhism may be summed up by this word - appamaada. The last words of the Buddha were - appamaadena sampaadetha - strive on with diligence." S: I'd also suggest that in terms of cetasikas, besides sati, viriya , panna and other wholesome qualities are included or implied. Some terms or phrases cannot be pin-pointed by a single cetasika. Quick examples that come to mind are 'yoniso and ayoniso manasikara' (wise and unwise attention) which refers to a series of wholesome or unwholesome cittas, kanti (patience) which refers to (samma) viriya in some contexts, but other cetasikas in other contexts and miccha sati (wrong awareness) for which there is also no single cetasika. I hope this helps. Metta, Sarah p.s Just seen that Nina has also replied, but will post anyway. Also, let us know off-list if you think we can help at all with your technical problem. Meanwhile, I'm happy to act as 'courier'. ============================ #64787 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:35 am Subject: No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) philofillet Hi James > Oh brother, could we please stop making everything so "central to > dhamma"! ;-)) What is central to dhamma depends on the person and > the circumstance. Really? WHen you get away from the core teachings, that is true I guess, but surely know that there are core teachings - think about what you wrote to those kids - didn't you teach them about central, core teachings? What is the one teaching that the Buddha said includes all the other teachings like the elephant's footprint contains the footprint of all other animals? And what is the relationship of greed, hatred and delusion (especially greed and delusion) to that one central teaching that was designated by the Buddha? There you'll have the answer to why the roots are so central. > > (as anatta is, but > > never mind.) Google "Roots of Good and Evil" and you'll find a > > wonderful little book by our friend Ven. Thera. > > I've read it before. Very good book. I found the title to be about > the roots of good and evil in human behavior, not the > supposed 'roots' in cittas. Did I miss something? "Supposed" roots? Yup, please have another look. Phil #64788 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:15 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life 108 nilovg Dear friends, When the tadåramma.na-cittas have fallen away the sense-door process has run its full course. There is, however, not always a complete sense-door process. When a rúpa which impinges on one of the senses, more than three moments of bhavanga-cittas may pass before a process starts and then the process cannot run its full course. Since rúpa does not last longer than seventeen moments of citta, it falls away before the tadåramma.na-cittas could arise. Thus, in that case there are no tadåramma.na-cittas 1) Only in the sensuous plane of existence kamma can, after kåmåvacara javana-cittas (of the sense-sphere), produce the vipåkacittas which are the tadåramma.na-cittas, ``hanging on'' to the sense object 2). For those who are born in rúpa-brahma-planes where there are less conditions for sense-impressions, and for those who are born in arúpa- brahma planes where there are no sense-impressions, there are no tadåramma.na-cittas 3). Summarizing the cittas which succeed one another when a rúpa impinges on one of the senses and becomes the object of cittas of a sense-door process which runs its full course: 1. Atíta-bhavanga (past bhavanga) 2. Bhavanga-calana (vibrating bhavanga) 3. Bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga) 4. Pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta (five-door-adverting-consciousness) 5. Dvi-pañca-viññå.na (the five pairs of seeing-consciousness, etc.) 6. Sampa.ticchana-citta (receiving-consciousness) 7. Santíra.na-citta (investigating-consciousness) 8. Votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness) 9. Javana-cittas 10. " 11. " 12. " 13. " 14. " 15. " 16. Tadåramma.na-citta (registering-consciousness) 17. " ------------ Footnotes: 1) The “Abhidhammattha Sangaha”, Ch 4, Analysis of Thought Processes, calls sense objects “very great” when the process runs its full course; it calls them “great” when the process is interrupted after the javana-cittas; it calls them “slight” when the process is interrupted after the votthapana-citta; it calls them very slight when the process does not start. 2) See Visuddhimagga XIV, 122. 3)Birth in a rúpa-brahma plane is the result of rúpåvacara kusala citta (rúpa-jhånacitta) and birth in an arúpa-brahma-plane is the result of arúpåvacara kusala citta (arúpa-jhånacitta). Those who develop jhånacitta see the disadvantage of sense impressions, they want to be freed from them. -------- Nina. #64789 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:19 am Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu nidive Hi Ken H, > Even with Sarah's expert tips on operating the three search-engines, > I have been unable to find the "unbound, unconditioned > consciousness" quote that I claimed to have seen on DSG. Maybe I > dreamt it! You indeed dreamt it! :-) Something that cannot be Googled has a 99% chance of not existing at all. > Yes, ATI is a helpful site. The people behind it, however, have a > secret agenda. Sorry for sounding paranoid, but I have no doubt that > Thanissaro and his students believe in an eternal self (or a self of > some kind) and they use ATI to convince people that the Buddha > believed in it too. Sorry, I don't see it as such. I think they are a bunch of great and generous people although I have not communicated with anyone of them. They also put up not quite a few translation works by people other than Thanissaro's. > They are perfectly entitled to do that, of course, but I want people > to know what is going on (especially before they refer newcomers to > that site). Please read my post # 34782 (of July 2004) and tell me > what you think. In summary, I agree with Thanissaro that "the doctrine of not-self is a technique or strategy for liberation, and not a metaphysical or ontological position." While the statement "there is no self" is true in truth and reality, it should not be seen as a metaphysical or ontological position. Holding to such a position doesn't liberate anyone. Telling this truth like it is might also cause nihilist views to arise among newcomers to the Buddha's teachings. It is wiser and much skillful to spend time practising the four foundations of mindfulness directly discovering for oneself the not- self characteristic of the five aggregates than to hold onto a position of "no self". The view of "absolute no control" is connected with the position of "no self". The view of "absolute no control" is a fatalist view. The view of "absolute no control" is a complication. Keep keeping discovering through meditation the not-self characteristic of dhammas. Don't bother about whether there is a self or not a self. Thoughts of a "self" or "not a self" are distracting thoughts. The truth and reality of "there is no self" is revealed upon maturity of insight into the not-self characteristic of dhammas at the path of sotapanna-ship. Don't worry about "no self", worry about whether you see the not-self characteristic of dhammas through direct insight. That's the simplicity and beauty of the Buddha's Dhamma - non-complication. Regards, Swee Boon #64790 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:17 am Subject: Re: Q. cetasikas, compassion, sympathetic joy. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your response; I have a few questions: N: "When I believe that I have confidence in the Dhamma it is so much mixed with lobha: attachment to having an anchor, a refuge. Especially when I notice pleasant feeling, I think: beware, beware. I do not trust it! This is all thinking." I tend to agree with you when you say that believing that one has something is thinking. I wonder, though, whether "confidence in the Dhamma" can be something other than a thought. I'm referring to "aveccappasaada" or confidence in the Dhamma? Is this pa~n~nati? Is it a mental factor? Is this the label for thoughts? Or is this something else? I suspect, as you mention above, that such a thing can be, as anything, subject to clinging. It can be accompanied by pleasant feeling, which can be clung to as well. Don't trust thinking is good. Is doubting the same as or different from not trusting? N: "Before the first stage of insight arises, we do not know exactly what is kusala, what is akusala. We can think, but they are gone already, how can their characteristics be precisely known? We do not know yet the characteristic of nama as different from rupa, nor do we know citta as being different from cetasika. The akusala cetasikas cause citta to be akusala. I just heard this on tape. Since I cannot find out anyway at this moment, I am inclined not to think about it for a long time." Can one have confidence in the Dhamma prior to the arising of the first stage of insight? Sincerely, Scott. #64792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:33 am Subject: Q. cetasikas, compassion, sympathetic joy nilovg Dear Scott, I try to answer this before leaving. ------ Scott: quote: N: Especially when I notice pleasant feeling, I think: beware, beware. I do not trust it! This is all thinking." S: I tend to agree with you when you say that believing that one has something is thinking. I wonder, though, whether "confidence in the Dhamma" can be something other than a thought. ------ N: I meant something else: my observations are all on the level of thinking. Thinking about lobha, about feeling, and I realize that this is not the same as being aware of their characteristics. It is only knowing in general, it is not precise. --------- S: I'm referring to "aveccappasaada" or confidence in the Dhamma? Is this pa~n~nati? Is it a mental factor? Is this the label for thoughts? Or is this something else? ------- N: It means perfect confidence. This must be strong, together with pa~n~naa. Confidence is actually saddhaa cetasika. Saddhaa accompanies each kusala citta. There could not be any form of kusala without the support of saddhaa. But there are many degrees of it. As pa~n~naa becomes stronger, also saddhaa gains in strength. The term pasadaa has almost the same meaning, it means purity. Saddhaa also has the characteristic of purity, like the purifying gem that was thrown into the water to purify it. When there is saddhaa there is purity of citta. This aspect helps me to see that it is quite different from clinging. ------- S: I suspect, as you mention above, that such a thing can be, as anything, subject to clinging. It can be accompanied by pleasant feeling, which can be clung to as well. Don't trust thinking is good. Is doubting the same as or different from not trusting? ----- N: Doubt: is it this or is it that? Is it kusala or akusala? Not trusting: this is more an expression of conventional language, and I mean: do not take each pleasant feeling for kusala. I said it half jokingly. --------- S: quotes: N: "Before the first stage of insight arises, we do not know exactly what is kusala, what is akusala. ... Can one have confidence in the Dhamma prior to the arising of the first stage of insight? --------- N: Yes. The fact that we listen and study shows our confidence. We persevere, even though it is a long way and we do not notice much progress. That shows our confidence. ****** Nina. #64793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] K.Sujin says there can be control! nilovg Dear Swee Boon, I am so glad you are reading Survey. The word control is no problem, so long as we remember that there is no person or "I" doing this, but controlling factors, indriyas, and in particular the indriya of pa~n~naa. Howard has written many posts on this subject. The expression beyond control is also used for anattaa, indicating that dhammas have no owner, no possessor. They arise depending on their own conditions and not because of a self who wants them to be in this or that way. But even though we know all this in theory, still, a subtle idea of self creeps in time and again, wanting to take over. Nina. Op 27-okt-2006, om 16:09 heeft nidive het volgende geschreven: > I received my copy of Survey and ADL today. I started with Survey on > the chapter "The Natural Way of Development". On page 356, she quoted > the Lesser Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant's Footprint about > the control over the organ of sight. > > She says that this kind of restraint can be achieved through the > development of panna that understands the realities that appear as > they are. > > I think this suggests that she doesn't teach "absolute no control", > which I am very glad to know of. #64794 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:13 pm Subject: Re: Q. cetasikas, compassion, sympathetic joy scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your good reply, especially since you were preparing to leave on a trip. I always appreciate your consistent and diligent help when I struggle with understanding. N: "I meant something else: my observations are all on the level of thinking. Thinking about lobha, about feeling, and I realize that this is not the same as being aware of their characteristics. It is only knowing in general, it is not precise." Sorry for misunderstanding. It was I who was mixing up thinking and being aware of the characteristics of dhammas. N: "It means perfect confidence. This must be strong, together with pa~n~naa. Confidence is actually saddhaa cetasika. Saddhaa accompanies each kusala citta." Okay so perfect confidence is like turbo-saddhaa because it is accompanied by pa~n~na. This would mean, would it, that such a complex would only arise from time to time, or given appropriate conditions, arise again and again in sequence? When, for example, it is said that the sotaapanna has 'perfect confidence,' does this mean that this arises again and again, or that it was a one-time constituent of the magga-citta that heralded the event of stream-entry? N: "There could not be any form of kusala without the support of saddhaa. But there are many degrees of it. As pa~n~naa becomes stronger, also saddhaa gains in strength. The term pasadaa has almost the same meaning, it means purity. Saddhaa also has the characteristic of purity, like the purifying gem that was thrown into the water to purify it. When there is saddhaa there is purity of citta. This aspect helps me to see that it is quite different from clinging." Quite clear, as was the rest. Thanks again, Nina. I hope you have (or had) a pleasant trip. With loving kindness, Scott. #64795 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Appamada - a loose end corvus121 Dear Sarah and Nina Many thanks for your replies - both very clear and helpful (meet the definition of "useful posts"!). It's very interesting to contemplate that some important concepts in Dhamma (including the subject of the very last utterance of the Buddha) are composite terms - concepts describing a range of co-arising realities (all of which need to be understood lest, for example, unwholesome energy/viriya be mistaken for wholesome diligence/appamada). Truly complex! (And yet Swee Boon says in a recent post that the Dhamma should be without complication? An interesting perspective.) Best wishes Andrew PS the computer yakkhas seem to be letting me post today (or at least "reply" to a post!). Let's hope it continues ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > S: I'd also suggest that in terms of cetasikas, besides sati, viriya , > panna and other wholesome qualities are included or implied. > > Some terms or phrases cannot be pin-pointed by a single cetasika. Quick > examples that come to mind are 'yoniso and ayoniso manasikara' (wise and > unwise attention) which refers to a series of wholesome or unwholesome > cittas, kanti (patience) which refers to (samma) viriya in some contexts, > but other cetasikas in other contexts and miccha sati (wrong awareness) > for which there is also no single cetasika. #64796 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:40 pm Subject: Re: K.Sujin says there can be control! nidive Hi Nina, > I am so glad you are reading Survey. > The word control is no problem, so long as we remember that there is > no person or "I" doing this, but controlling factors, indriyas, and > in particular the indriya of pa~n~naa. > Howard has written many posts on this subject. > The expression beyond control is also used for anattaa, indicating > that dhammas have no owner, no possessor. They arise depending on > their own conditions and not because of a self who wants them to be > in this or that way. I agree. Speaking of control is not a problem so long as we see that there is no self that controls, but only dhammas themselves are controlling themselves. If one thinks there can absolutely be no control, then that is a fatalistic view. > But even though we know all this in theory, still, a subtle idea of > self creeps in time and again, wanting to take over. > Nina. It is possible to practise meditation on the four foundations of mindfulness without letting that self creep in. When that idea of self creeps in, just note that as a distraction of the mind that has come into being due to ignorance. Keep doing this repeatedly and that idea of self will subside. That idea of self can be overcome. It may be difficult initially, but the effort pays off. Regards, Swee Boon #64797 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:30 pm Subject: Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu ken_aitch Hi Swee Boon, ---------------- <. . .> SB: > In summary, I agree with Thanissaro that "the doctrine of not-self is a technique or strategy for liberation, and not a metaphysical or ontological position." ----------------- Never mind about "ontological position;" is there (according to the Dhamma) a self, or is there not? I think every Dhamma student needs to know this from the outset. ----------------------------- SB: > While the statement "there is no self" is true in truth and reality, ----------------------------- You are going a step further than Thanissaro. He says "...where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality..." (see post # 64769) ------------------------------------------ SB: > it should not be seen as a metaphysical or ontological position. Holding to such a position doesn't liberate anyone. Telling this truth like it is might also cause nihilist views to arise among newcomers to the Buddha's teachings. It is wiser and much skillful to spend time practising the four foundations of mindfulness directly discovering for oneself the not- self characteristic of the five aggregates than to hold onto a position of "no self". ------------------------------------------ I am sure that would be very wise indeed, and it will happen when the true Dhamma has been heard and wisely considered. So what is the true Dhamma? The five khandhas are not self, and nibbana is not self. Does that mean there is no self? Or is there something else (other than the five khandhas and nibbana)? Did the Buddha withholding something from us? Ken H #64798 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:44 pm Subject: No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) philofillet Hi again James I was thinking about this - is your confusion that it's hard to see how a citta that rises and falls away in a split-second, rooted in greed or hatred, could possibly be an object of mindfulness? If that is the case, I know what you mean. It seems, realistically, that it would be a whole bunch of mental moments "rooted" in greed or hatred that would be a useful object of mindfulness rather than one incredibly fast citta. How can something so ephemeral be an object of mindfulness for any person of non-Ariyan understanding? I do think greed and hatred can be objects of mindfulness, for us ordinary folk. Thinking about that... Phil > > I've read it before. Very good book. I found the title to be > about > > the roots of good and evil in human behavior, not the > > supposed 'roots' in cittas. Did I miss something? > > > "Supposed" roots? Yup, please have another look. > > Phil > #64799 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu) jonoabb Hi James (and Phil) buddhatrue wrote: >> Google "Roots of Good and Evil" and you'll find a >> wonderful little book by our friend Ven. Thera. >> > > I've read it before. Very good book. I found the title to be about > the roots of good and evil in human behavior, not the > supposed 'roots' in cittas. Did I miss something? > These two (roots of good and evil in behaviour, roots of cittas) are really one and the same. See the useful summary in the entry for 'mula' in Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, which reads in part: << << << MÅ«la 'roots', also called hetu, are those conditions which through their presence determine the actual moral quality of a volitional state (cetanÄ?), and the consciousness and mental factors associated therewith, in other words, the quality of karma. There are 6 such roots, 3 karmically wholesome and 3 unwholesome roots, viz.,: greed, hate, delusion (lobha, dosa, moha), and greedlessness, hatelessness, undeludedness (alobha, adosa, amoha). In A.III.68 it is said that greed arises through unwise reflection on an attractive object, hate through unwise reflection on a repulsive object. Thus, greed (lobha or rÄ?ga) comprises all degrees of 'attractedness' towards an object from the faintest trace of a longing thought up to grossest egoism, whilst hatred (dosa) comprises all degrees of 'repulsion' from the faintest trace of ill-humor up to the highest pitch of hate and wrath. The 3 wholesome (kusala) roots, greedlessness, etc., though expressed in negative terms, nevertheless possess a distinctly positive character, just as is also often the case with negative terms in other languages, for example, the negative term 'immorality', which has a decidedly positive character. Thus, greedlessness (alobha) is a name for unselfishness, liberality, etc., hatelessness (adosa) for kindness or goodwill (mettÄ?), undeludedness (amoha) for wisdom (paññÄ?). ... >> >> >> Full text here: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/g_m/muula.htm Hope this helps Jon