#65400 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:45 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 582 - The Stages of Insight(d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd The understanding of seeing and all the other realities is bound to be vague in the beginning and it is useful to know what one does not understand yet. Seeing arises and then it falls away immediately to be succeeded by other cittas of the eye-door process which experience visible object. When the eye-door process has been completed there is a process of cittas which experience visible object through the mind-door; they do not experience a concept but visible object which has only just fallen away. Later on other mind-door processes of cittas which experience a concept may arise. When one pays attention to the shape and form of something and to the details, the object is a concept. Thus, rúpas which impinge on the five senses are experienced through the corresponding sense-door as well as through the mind-door. We are confused with regard to the truth because it seems that seeing continues for some time and that there is no mind-door process of cittas which also experience the visible object which was experienced by the cittas of the eye-door process. We do not notice the mind-door processes which arise in between the sensedoor processes, it seems that the mind-door processes are covered up by the sense-door processes. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65401 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:10 am Subject: About Bhikkhu Bodhi jwromeijn About Bhikkhu Bodhi In his message yesterday to me KenH asked me if I "could tell if Bhikkhu Bodhi is still regarded as a Theravadin monk. I believe he took up permanent residence in a Mahayana monastery two or three years ago" ? . That's correct, but he still is a monk, I don't know enough about the rules (Vinaya) but I'm sure that there is nothing against it. More about him in: http://www.inquiringmind.com/Articles/Translator.html And in de site of the monastery in which he stays: www.bodhimonastery.net This year he gave a talk on "Arahants, Buddhas, and Bodhisattvas" (to be found on this site at www.bodhimonastery.net/docs/Arahants_Bstvas_BuddhasV2.pdf Is he still a Theravadin? Yes, I'm sure. Is he changed? Yes: there is more compassion in his text Metta Joop #65402 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:02 am Subject: Re: re ADL 119 scottduncan2 Dear Nina and Howard, I'm learning a lot from your excellent conversation, thank you very much. The points you are discussing are quite relevant to a consideration of naama anad ruupa arising and falling away during the day. Not interested either in the mere memorization of list, this discussion helps me to consider what it is exactly I think I'm experiencing. N: "We have learnt about the different processes of cittas, sense-door processes and mind-door processes... ** Howard: "A truism... ** N: "...it does bear on the understanding of sankhara nimitta...what can be known and what not yet. Visible object is experienced in an eyedoor process, and immediately after this it is experienced in a mind-door process. It has just fallen away, but it (let us say a photo copy or the nimitta) is experienced through the mind-door..." I was thinking about this as well as I followed this conversation. As it says in Pa.t.thaana regarding Samanantara (Contiguity) Condition: "Eye-conciousness element and its associated states are related to mind-element and its associated states by contiguity condition; mind-element and its associated states are related to mind-consciousness element and its associated states by contiguity condition." Ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, and body consciousness are all so-related as well. As is noted: "In contiguity with these states, those (other) states, consciousness and mental factors arise; those (former)states are related to those (latter) states by contiguity condition." The discussion is helpful to me because I can better consider what I think I see and hear and touch and smell and taste. Considering that it is "nimitta" that I am experiencing is important. It keeps me from getting ahead of myself. I was noticing yesterday how much thinking is already happening and how, for example, what I am 'seeing' is still only 'looking' and 'thinking' about things that still appear whole and continuous. I wonder if this is the phenomenology of 'nimitta' as far as seeing goes: What I 'see' is already naama, that is, 'mind-consciousness element and its associated states'. I only know that dhammas arise and fall away intellectually for the most part at this point, or only in the most coarse sense. I can hear a sound and can be aware that it wasn't present, then it was, and then it is gone but I can also be aware that I've identified it, have construed a story about it, am prone to think about it after it is gone. I can be aware of some sensation, say in my hand after I bump it on a desk corner, and note when it arose, and then, many seconds later, after noting its 'persistence', can observe that it stops. Again there is much thinking - about hands and desks and pain. Seeing is even more difficult, as is hearing, when it comes to what appears to be a steady backdrop of sight or sound. All these seem whole and continuous to me still. If I see I can play games and turn my head away and feel like a child for whom 'out of sight is out of mind' but this is just magical thinking. Even though the guy I saw has gone past and I see that particular colour no longer, I'm already thinking 'guy' and 'know' that 'he' is still there walking away behind my back, not to mention still seeing 'him' in my mind's eye. Thanks again, Howard and Nina, this is a good discussion you are into. With loving kindness, Scott. #65403 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions again sarahprocter... Hi JC, --- jcmendoza1000 wrote: > To all: > Does any one know why the Awakened One taught us that even if a monk > has achieveed the goal of the contemplative life, he is still worthy > of criticism (Digha Nikaya 12 Lohicca Sutta ) and he implies there > that only a Tathagatha is worthy and completely beyond criticism that > is factual. Does this mean that even arhats can be criticized? Won't > we beget much demerit for that even if it is factual? > - JC .... S: I think if you read the sutta clearly, it is bhikkhus who teach wrong views that are to be criticised and not only the Tathagatha, but any of his disciples who 'practise the moralities', 'guard the sense-doors', 'attain jhanas', 'various insights', 'realise the Four Noble Truths', follow 'the path' etc are not to be blamed. At the end of the sutta, Brahmin Lohicca realises his own wrong views and takes refuge in the Triple Gem. Pls take a careful look and let me know if you wish to discuss it further. Metta, Sarah ========= #65404 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:46 am Subject: ADL 119, nimitta. nilovg Dear Scott (and Howard), I also enjoy the dialogue with Howard, and I find it helpful when he is direct and says: a truism. Or: this is not relevant, this is not the issue. It helps me to consider why I do find it relevant. I appreciate your quotes from the Patthana, it reminds us of the rapidity the cittas succeed one another in a specific order nobody can change. -------- Howard: "A truism... ** N: "...it does bear on the understanding of sankhara nimitta...what can be known and what not yet. Visible object is experienced in an eyedoor process, and immediately after this it is experienced in a mind-door process. It has just fallen away, but it (let us say a photo copy or the nimitta) is experienced through the mind-door..." S: I was thinking about this as well as I followed this conversation. As it says in Pa.t.thaana regarding Samanantara (Contiguity) Condition: "Eye-conciousness element and its associated states are related to mind-element and its associated states by contiguity condition.... The discussion is helpful to me because I can better consider what I think I see and hear and touch and smell and taste. Considering that it is "nimitta" that I am experiencing is important. It keeps me from getting ahead of myself. ------- N: I was thinking of what Howard said about sa~n~naa, about what has fallen away and recalled. Just this morning I heard about nimitta in Thai. Kh Sujin was first speaking about the second meaning of nimitta, remembering the outward appearance of people and things around us. Then she said: but there are more details of nimitta, meaning, nimitta of conditioned realities, of each of the khandhas, thus, realities. She explained that this is just as in a dream: what we perceive seems very real, but we remember what has already fallen away. Also when awake we live as in a dream. What we experience seems to last. She explained that the understanding of nimitta helps us to let go of what seems so important. All our experiences seem most important to us, how we cling. She said: In other words, understanding that colour and seeing have fallen away already and we remember nimittas of them does not prevent us from beginning to be mindful of their characteristics. she adds all the time: gradually, little by little (khoy, khoy in Thai.) --------- S: I was noticing yesterday how much thinking is already happening and how, for example, what I am 'seeing' is still only 'looking' and 'thinking' about things that still appear whole and continuous. I wonder if this is the phenomenology of 'nimitta' as far as seeing goes: What I 'see' is already naama, that is, 'mind-consciousness element and its associated states'. ----- N: I add the following for those who may wonder what mind- consciousness is: the five pairs are: cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na dhaatu, etc. Mano-dhaatu are: five-door adverting citta and the two sampa.ticchana- cittas. All the other cittas are mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu, mind- consciousness element. The latter also arises in sense-door processes, not merely in the mind-door process. Thus, santiira.na citta, investigating-consciousness, is mind-consciousness element. I think you mean by what you said above: it seems seeing is still there, but already colour is experienced by cittas arising in a mind- door process. The javana-cittas in that process can arise with sati- sampaja~n~na. But even in a sense-door process pa~n~na can arise. Then the object is a sense object. ---------- S: I only know that dhammas arise and fall away intellectually for the most part at this point, or only in the most coarse sense. ... I can be aware of some sensation, say in my hand after I bump it on a desk corner, and note when it arose, and then, many seconds later, after noting its 'persistence', can observe that it stops. Again there is much thinking - about hands and desks and pain. ------- N: For me it is difficult to disentangle hardness, bodily feeling, aversion. But as you say, it is just thinking. ------ S: Seeing is even more difficult, as is hearing, when it comes to what appears to be a steady backdrop of sight or sound. All these seem whole and continuous to me still. -------- N: Yes, to all of us: whole and comtinuous. Hearing Kh Sujin repeat what seeing is, what hearing is, for years and years, helps to begin gradually, gradually, to consider these realities, but not trying on purpose, or staring at colour in order to know what seeing is. I did that in the beginning. Do join in again, it is helpful for everybody. Nina. #65405 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Bhikkhu Bodhi upasaka_howard Hi, Joop (and Ken) - In a message dated 11/17/06 5:16:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, jwromeijn@... writes: > > About Bhikkhu Bodhi > In his message yesterday to me KenH asked me if I "could tell if > Bhikkhu Bodhi is still regarded as a Theravadin monk. I believe he > took up permanent residence in a Mahayana monastery two or three > years ago" ? > . > That's correct, but he still is a monk, I don't know enough about the > rules (Vinaya) but I'm sure that there is nothing against it. > More about him in: > http://www.inquiringmind.com/Articles/Translator.html > > And in de site of the monastery in which he stays: > www.bodhimonastery.net > > This year he gave a talk on "Arahants, Buddhas, and Bodhisattvas" (to > be found on this site at > www.bodhimonastery.net/docs/Arahants_Bstvas_BuddhasV2.pdf > > Is he still a Theravadin? Yes, I'm sure. > Is he changed? Yes: there is more compassion in his text > > Metta > > Joop > ======================= Early on, according to my reading, it was common for Theravadin and Mahayanist monks to reside at the same vihara. In checking the web site for the Bodhi Monastery (the name is coincidental), Bhikkhu Bodhi typically teaches such material as the MN, the Dhammapada, and the Sutta-nipata, whereas Madhyamika and so on is taught by others. Ken, was your question about Bhikkhu Bodhi still being Theravada a serious one? There are all sorts of unverifiable, negative claims and rumors about illustrious Theravadins of past and present that can be made. I generally think it is best for us to avoid implausible conjecture. With metta, Howard #65406 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:38 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 124 nilovg Dear friends, In being aware of nåma and rúpa which appear, such as seeing, visible object, feeling or thinking, we can prove to ourselves the truth of the Buddha's teachings; we can prove that the objects experienced through the six doors are impermanent and non-self. The truth will not be known if one follows other people blindly or if one speculates about the truth. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Sa.låyatana- vagga, Third Fifty, chapter V, §152, Is there a method?) that the Buddha said: ``Is there, monks, any method, by following which a monk, apart from belief, apart from inclination, apart from hearsay, apart from argument as to method, apart from reflection on reasons, apart from delight in speculation, could affirm insight thus: `Ended is birth, lived is the righteous life, done is the task, for life in these conditions there is no hereafter' ?'' ``For us, lord, things have their root in the Exalted One... Well indeed were it if the meaning of this that has been spoken were to manifest itself in the Exalted One. Hearing it from him the monks will remember it.'' ``There is indeed a method, monks, by following which a monk... could affirm insight... And what is that method? Herein, monks, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, either recognizes within him the existence of lust, aversion and ignorance, thus: `I have lust, aversion and ignorance', or recognizes the non- existence of these qualities within him, thus: `I have not lust, aversion and ignorance.' Now as to that recognition of their existence or non-existence within him, are these conditions, I ask, to be understood by belief, or by inclination, or hearsay, or argument as to method, or reflection on reasons, or delight in speculation?'' ``Surely not, lord.'' ``Are these states to be understood by seeing them with the eye of wisdom?'' ``Surely, lord.'' ``Then, monks, this is the method by following which, apart from belief... a monk could affirm insight thus: `Ended is birth... for life in these conditions there is no hereafter.' `` The same is said with regard to the doors of the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind. ****** Nina. #65407 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cutting off at feeling nilovg Dear Andrew, You expressed this very well, very clearly. Different cittas arise due to intricate conditions and we cannot trace which conditions. Many stem from the past. The cittas that arise perform their own tasks, be they kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When we tell ourselves: abstain from this bad deed, or someone else tells us and consequently we abstain, it all seems as if I abstain, have taken that decision. In reality the cittas did their task, arising due to conditions. This is what I consider the natural order of cittas. The fact that it is so unpredictable how our reactions are to sudden events reminds us of the truth of anatta. Some people may believe that this means that we shoulkd not care about siila. I quote from Kh Sujin's Perfection of siila: < The streamwinner who has realized the four noble Truths and attained the first stage of enlightenment, has eradicated the defilements in accordance with that stage of enlightenment. He observes the five precepts perfectly, he cannot transgress them anymore. If one is not a streamwinner which precepts can one observe? Even before we are a streamwinner, we should not transgress the precepts. The coarse defilements can be subdued and worn away until paññå will be de- veloped to the degree of a perfection and is able to realize the four noble Truths. The perfection of síla is an excellent quality, a supporting condition for reaching the further shore, namely the eradication of defilements. > ***** Nina Op 16-nov-2006, om 23:54 heeft Andrew het volgende geschreven: > I think both Phil and I have > confidence in a conditioning link between Dhamma study and the arising > of panna in varying degrees, but we recognise that we don't understand > that link and are therefore reluctant to "second guess" the precise > mechanics of it. For that reason, Phil (I think) says that he takes > a "commonsense" view of "do this" and "don't do that" statements. > > That's why I like Khun Sujin's emphasis on a "natural" approach. > Things are conditioned, not controlled - so the focus goes off > controling and onto understanding. That doesn't mean there is a > cessation of "doing" - but, in my experience, it tends to lead to a > degree of detachment from the doing. Is this how you read Khun Sujin's > talk of "natural"? #65408 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Scott) - In a message dated 11/17/06 10:56:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > S: Seeing is even more difficult, as is hearing, when it comes to what > appears to be a steady backdrop of sight or sound. All these seem > whole and continuous to me still. > -------- > N: Yes, to all of us: whole and comtinuous. Hearing Kh Sujin repeat > what seeing is, what hearing is, for years and years, helps to begin > gradually, gradually, to consider these realities, but not trying on > purpose, or staring at colour in order to know what seeing is. I did > that in the beginning. > ======================= As you say, it is very, *very* difficult to see things as they actually are. Yet you say that repeating (words!!!) pertaining to seeing, and hearing, and so on "for years and years" helps us to gradually come to see reality as it is. Do you seriously think that is plausible? I surely do not. We can come to "see" only by actual repeated "looking". All the words and thinking in the world will not enable us to truly see the cessation, unsatisfactoriess, and not-self of dhammas. I conjecture that it might have been quite helpful to you had you, in addition to the study of theory, continued with your early attempts at looking. Though my progress is slight and slow, such "looking" has helped me. And it is never too late to begin! All beginning starts "now"! ;-) With metta, Howard #65409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:13 am Subject: ADL 119, nimitta. nilovg Hi Howard, ------ N: Hearing Kh Sujin repeat > what seeing is, what hearing is, for years and years, helps to begin > gradually, gradually, to consider these realities, but not trying on > purpose, or staring at colour in order to know what seeing is. I did > that in the beginning. > ======================= H: As you say, it is very, *very* difficult to see things as they actually are. Yet you say that repeating (words!!!) pertaining to seeing, and hearing, and so on "for years and years" helps us to gradually come to see reality as it is. Do you seriously think that is plausible? I surely do not. -------- N: Repeating words, no, it is more than that. She explained patiently what seeing is: it only experiences what appears through the eyesense. And visible object: just what appears through eyesense, nothing else. Now, in the Buddha's time his followers would listen to what he said and while they listened, they considered, they could be aware and even attain enlightenment. This is an example that while listening, one turns it over again and again, also now, when I listen to tapes I do . Walking away to the kitchen, still considering on and off. That is how it works. It is by no means a question of words. Then you hear her explaining again and it seems that it is more meaningful than before. It has to sink in. It sounds oh so simple: seeing is the experience of what appears through the eyes, but don't we "see" persons, trees? That is not seeing just what appears through the eyes. We cling to images, that is because of our defilements, because of ignorance and clinging. We did that our whole life and now we have heard something new. It never occurred to me that visible object is only what appears through the eyes. ------- H: We can come to "see" only by actual repeated "looking". All the words and thinking in the world will not enable us to truly see the cessation, unsatisfactoriess, and not-self of dhammas. I conjecture that it might have been quite helpful to you had you, in addition to the study of theory, continued with your early attempts at looking. Though my progress is slight and slow, such "looking" has helped me. And it is never too late to begin! All beginning starts "now"! ;-) ------ N: I remember you used the word 'looking' in New York and I did not say anything, because I was not sure what you meant. Looking at what? Does the Buddha not speak also about hearing, smelling, tasting touching, experiencing objects through the mind-door? I think that we have to really consider this: six doorways, and each dhamma appears through one doorway at a time. When you say looking it does not help me to pay attention to one doorway at a time. Think of the sutta on the 'method' I just posted, this deals with six doors: < And what is that method? Herein, monks, a monk, seeing an object with the eye, either recognizes within him the existence of lust, aversion and ignorance, thus: `I have lust, aversion and ignorance', or recognizes the non- existence of these qualities within him, thus: `I have not lust, aversion and ignorance.' Now as to that recognition of their existence or non-existence within him, are these conditions, I ask, to be understood by belief, or by inclination, or hearsay, or argument as to method, or reflection on reasons, or delight in speculation?'' ``Surely not, lord.'' ``Are these states to be understood by seeing them with the eye of wisdom?'' ``Surely, lord.''> One has to be aware of lobha, dosa and moha, according to this sutta, as they arise on account of the objects experienced through all six doors. There is an expression: seeing with the eye of wisdom, and that is right seeing, not just looking. But we are beginners, we do not begin seeing the three general characteristics. Everything should be according to order. I will not repeat what I said before about the stages of insight that are reached in order. ****** Nina. #65410 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/17/06 2:30:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > N: I remember you used the word 'looking' in New York and I did not > say anything, because I was not sure what you meant. Looking at what? > Does the Buddha not speak also about hearing, smelling, tasting > touching, experiencing objects through the mind-door? I =================== Sorry for not being clear, Nina. I was speaking metaphorically. By 'looking' I meant "observing", and by "seeing" I meant cognizing truly with wisdom. To see the sense of my usage, recall that a synonym for wisdom is 'vijja', which lietrally means "sight". With metta, Howard #65411 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] About Bhikkhu Bodhi ken_aitch Hi Howard, --------------- <. . .> H: > Ken, was your question about Bhikkhu Bodhi still being Theravada a serious one? There are all sorts of unverifiable, negative claims and rumors about illustrious Theravadins of past and present that can be made. I generally think it is best for us to avoid implausible conjecture. ----------------- Yes it was a serious question. It is good to know who is a genuine monk and who isn't. I must admit, BTW, that I don't even know the relevant rules, so I can't pretend to be vitally interested. :-) As you said, monks can stay in other viharas, but aren't there strict requirements for Theravada monks to return ASAP to their own monasteries? Isn't there a requirement that they reaffirm their vows at regular set intervals in the presence of monks from their own order? How could BB have been doing this? If he hasn't been doing it, is he still a monk? Is this any of my business? Is it improper to ask? I don't know. Ken H #65412 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. scottduncan2 Dear Howard, (and Nina), I think I understand the below: H: "We can come to 'see' only by actual repeated 'looking'...such 'looking' has helped me." I'd say: "Until we see we are only looking." I like: "What is eye element? That eye which, deriving from the four great essentials, is sensitive surface, included in the body, invisible, impingent; by means of which invisible impingent eye (one) sees, will see or may see visible impingent visible (object); this is eye; this is eye base; this is eye element; this is controlling faculty of eye; this is a world; this is a door; this is an ocean; this is lucence; this is a field; this is a basis; this is a guide; this is guidance; this is the near shore; this is an empty village. This is called eye element. "Therein what is visible element? That visible (object) which, deriving from the four great essentials, is of shining appearance, visible, impingent, blue, yellow, red, white, black, crimson, green, gold-colour, the colour of a mango bud, long, short, small, big, circular, spherical, square, hexagonal, octagonal, sixteen-cornered, low, high, shady, glowing, light, dark, dull, misty, smoky, dusty, of the shining appearance of the moon's disc, of the shining appearance of the sun's disc, of the shining appearance of the stellar bodies, of the shining appearance of the mirror's disc, of the shining appearance of a gem, shell, pearl, cat's eye, of the shining appearance of gold and silver; or whatever other visible (object) which (one) saw, sees, will see, or may see by means of invisible impingent eye; this is visible (object); this is visible base; this is visible element. This is called visible element. "Therein what is eye-consciousness element? Depending on eye and on visible (objects) there arises consciousness, mind, ideation, heart (i.e. consciousness), lucence, (i.e. consciousness), mind, mind base, controlling faculty of mind, consciousness, the aggregate of consciousness; and, depending on the aforesaid, eye-consciousness element. This is called eye-consciousness element." Vibha"nga 184-186, p.p. 112-113. With loving kindness, Scott. #65413 From: "matt roke" Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling mattroke Dear Phil and all, These two seemed to be following the same train of thought, at times. I hope you don’t mind me bringing them together and making some comments? ======================================================= Phil: You are putting the development of wisdom before everything else - I no longer think it can work that way - and it's not the way Dhamma was expounded by the Buddha. . . . Now I am developing wholesome habits of mind that don't have anything to do with wisdom that penetrates dhammas to the degree of seeing anatta. . . . there are situations that have arisen and are continuing and there can be a dropping of them whether one understands anatta or not. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- The ability to develop wholesome habits is a concept that almost all beings share and one that all the major religions practice, however, the teaching of the Buddha is much deeper and more profound than this, that is why he hesitated to teach. Dhammas create concepts and attachment to them that prevents the obvious from being seen, and it is only through the development of wisdom that there can be any understanding of what is real. Conceptional wisdom helps us to have greater understanding of dhammas and what the Buddha taught. The wisdom of satipatanna that penetrates the dhammas (even when very week), clarifies that there are dhamma moments, which is very different to the world of concepts that is void of them. At the higher level of insight, wisdom knows the characteristic of a dhamma moment, which has no self and does not last. Sotapannas have this insight wisdom and yet they still have attachment and aversion. Sotapannas keep sila not because they think it is good to be wholesome or because they know that akusala kamma leads to akusala vipaka. They do so because they have the wisdom to know that the characteristics of dhammas are without self and they fall away immediately. They do not steal an item that they find attractive because they know that there is no item; there are only moments of visible object, sound and touch etc. They know that they cannot own a moment of seeing or any other dhamma moment that does not stay. They do not lie or kill because there is no one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing. Sotapannas reach this enlightened state through the development of wisdom not wholesome habits. They know that they can’t stop akusala from arising and they can’t make kusala happen. It is wisdom only that prevents them from ever again doing unwholesome deeds. It is only at this level of wisdom or higher that there is sila with no falling back. We may be able to hold sila because of favourable conditions or accumulations, but without insight wisdom that will all change. Developing wisdom, which leads to insight, is the only way to deal with those old akusala friends that keep dropping by to visit. Wisdom at the concept level can help us understand that there is no one who chooses. At conception our body grows and has its physical features and shortcomings without any input from us. . . no choice and we can’t change it. What senses there are and what impinges on them is what we get . . .no choice and we can’t change them. Mentality functions as it is meant to function . . .no choice and we can’t change it. What is experienced through the senses and what concepts are created by mentality is what we get . . .no choice and we can’t change them. The sense doors are conditioned. What arises at the sense doors are conditioned. The concepts that make up our language, beliefs, nationality, family, this world and what we call our life are conditioned and none are of our choosing and we can’t change them. Accumulations and conditions determined what concepts there are and what concepts there will be, not a person who chooses. The aim is not to avoid or change what is conditioned, but to develop wisdom that understands the true nature of what is conditioned. Conceptional wisdom is developed by reading, listening, discussing and contemplating the Dhamma that points to what is real. Dhamma concepts help us to have better understanding of reality, but ultimately, like all concepts, they can hinder insight into what is real. ======================================================= ======================================================= Phil: I can do something about individual akusala situations, no matter how deep the accumulations are. I am not content to have my mind incline in akusala directions. We can choose to take action towards the inclining of our mind in more wholesome directions. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- It is important that we have more understanding of dhammas that make up experiences and concepts, and their impermanence, even at the conceptonal level. When there is no understanding of dhammas then there will be the thoughts “I am doing” and “I can control”. It may seem like we have control because we can decide to do something and then do it. We may think that we choose to have sila or write to friends at DSG or have a beer with our old drinking buddy, but those are only concepts and not what is real. When we take that sip of beer there are countless dhamma moments impinging on the senses as seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, thinking and mental objects. We can’t choose what dhammas will arise, we can’t choose what order they will arise in, we can’t change them to be something different to what they are, and we can’t stop them from arising or from falling away. If there is no understanding of this flux of dhammas then there will only be concepts of a person who has control and does things. ======================================================= ======================================================= Phil: there are countless suttas in which one is encouraged to among other similes - stamp out akusala proliferation. . .Nothing ambiguous about that. There is no doubt whatsover that the Buddha encouraged us to stamp out akusala proliferation (thoughts of ill-will, thoughts of sensual desire, thoughts of cruelty.) No doubt for me at least. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- When the Buddha taught Dhamma it created the conditions for us to hear Dhamma. Of those who hear Dhamma, some are interested in it and many are not. And of those who are interested there are different degrees of appreciation or understanding or effort to understand. How much one appreciates Dhamma, gets involved in it, understands it or puts in the effort to understand it will depend on conditions and accumulations. The Buddha spoke of ‘effort’, which can be a condition for there to be effort. We may think that effort is important, but that does not mean that there will be effort, it all depends on accumulations. There is a difference between understanding that the Buddha’s words may condition effort and thinking that we must make an effort after hearing the Buddha’s words. ======================================================= ======================================================= Phil: I don't believe that self clinging to desiring less akusala kamma patha is that kind of dangerous wrong view. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- This lobha for less akusala is due to the dosa towards akusala behaviour. Akusala can eliminate akusala is a dangerous wrong view. ======================================================= ======================================================= Phil: Certainly we will have to come to see that all conditioned dhammas are anatta - but now I am more about "we start where we are, not where we want to be." I think that *is* the way expounded by the Buddha. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- If we desire to have less akusala, then we are starting from where we want to be, not from where we are. Understanding better the realities that are now arising and falling away is starting from where we are. ======================================================= ======================================================= Phil: Am I saying "use self to get rid of self?" - you'll say I am. But I think it's more like "not worrying about whether self is involved in avoiding transgression" - not the same thing, I think. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- These are just concepts and views as to whether they have the same meaning or not. Both do not point to the understanding of reality; the countless dhammas, arising and falling away at the 6 doors, that are impermanent and not in one’s control. ======================================================= ======================================================= Phil: Nina asks Acharn Sujin about someone on the list who is concerned about transgression, and Acharn Sujin says the akusala is already gone or whatever. Terribly advice, in my opinion. There is a time for good Dhamma friends to give direct, forthright advice. I think she really missed the mark that time. . . --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- Acharn Sujin was pointing to the importance of knowing the moment and its impermanence, rather than having concepts about transgressions that can condition more akusala. ======================================================= ======================================================= Phil: but hey, it's just one question in one of many talks. She is obviously wrong sometimes since she is not a sotapanna. (I assume.) Am I right in thinking that a sotapanna could never give faulty advice on Dhamma points becasue wrong view has been eliminated? (Forget Acharn Sujin, I mean in general.) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ ---------------- All teachers and teachings may have faults or because of our ignorance be misinterpreted, so we must investigate and only embrace that which we see points to what is real. Matt #65414 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. scottduncan2 Dear Howard, (and Nina), I'd say: "Until we see we are only looking." (remix) I also like: '"On seeing a visible object with the eye": if the eye were to see the visible object, then (organs) belonging to other kinds of consciousness would see too; but that is not so. Why? Because the eye has no thought (acetanattaa). And then, were consciousness itself to see a visible object, it would see it even behind a wall because of being independent of sense resistance (appa.tighabhaavato); but that is not so either because there is no seeing in all kinds of consciousness. And herein, it is consciousness dependent on the eye that sees, not just any kind. And that does not arise with respect to what is enclosed by walls, etc., where light is excluded. But where there is no exclusion of light, as in the case of a crystal or a mass of cloud, there it does arise even with respect to what is enclosed by them. So it is as a basis of consciousness that eye sees. '"When there is the impingement of door and object": what is intended is: when a visible datum as object has come into the eye's focus. "One sees": one looks (oloketi); for when the consciousness that has eye-sensitivity as its material support is disclosing (obhaasente) by means of the special quality of its support a visible datum as object that is assisted by light (aaloka), then it is said that a person possesed of that sees the visible datum. And here the illuminating is the revealing of the visible datum according to its individual essence, in other words, the apprehending of it experientially (paccakkhato)... '"He stops at what is merely seen": according to the Sutta method "The seen shall be merely seen" (Ud. 8). As soon as the colour basis has been apprehended by the consciousnesses of the cognitive series with eye-consciousness he stops; he does not fancy any aspect of beauty, etc., beyond that...In one who fancies as beautiful, etc., the limbs of the opposite sex, defilements arisen with respect to them successively become particularized, which is why they are called "particulars". But these are simply modes of interpreting (sannivesaakaara) the kinds of materiality derived from the (four) primaries that are interpreted (sannivi.t.tha) in such and such wise; for apart from that ther is in the ultimate sense no such thing as a hand and so on' (Paramattha-ma~njusa, Visuddhimagga A.t.thakathaa 40-41) Visuddhimagga I, Note 14, p.p. 751-752. With loving kindness, Scott. #65415 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Matt - In a message dated 11/17/06 10:50:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, mattroke@... writes with regard to stream enterers: > They do not steal > an item that they find attractive because they know that there is no item; > there are only moments of visible object, sound and touch etc. They know > that they cannot own a moment of seeing or any other dhamma moment that does > > not stay. They do not lie or kill because there is no one to be protected > and no one who will gain by lying or killing. > > ====================== Pardon me, Matt, but if that were so, I'd sooner be a good worldling than a sotapanna! With metta, Howard #65416 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:50 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 583 - The Stages of Insight(e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd When the first stage of insight is reached, paññå which arises in a mind-door process clearly distinguishes the characteristic of nåma from the characteristic of rúpa, there is no confusion about their different characteristics. Neither is there confusion about what the mind-door process is; the mind-door process which follows upon a sense-door process is no longer covered up, as was the case before the first stage of insight occurred. At the moments of insight nåma and rúpa appear one at a time in mind-door processes and at these moments one does not take realities as a “whole”, there is no idea of “the world”, no idea of a self. There is no self who can direct which nåma and rúpa are the objects of insight, there is no particular order of their appearing. Any nåma and any rúpa can be the object of insight and their different characteristics can be distinguished from each other. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65417 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:19 am Subject: ADL 119, nimitta. nilovg Hi Howard (and Scott), ----------- H: I was speaking metaphorically. By 'looking' I meant "observing", and by "seeing" I meant cognizing truly with wisdom. To see the sense of my usage, recall that a synonym for wisdom is 'vijja', which literally means "sight". ------- N: Questions: Observing what, how, when? Vijja is the opposite of avijja, ignorance as you know. There is no meaning in Pali of vijja as sight. It is as you say, a synonym for wisdom. Ignorance conceals the characteristics of sankhaara dhammas, conditioned dhammas, their true nature, their momentary arising and breaking up. I wonder about a passage you wrote just before this post, and I notice some concern in your words: H: 'I conjecture that it might have been quite helpful to you had you, in addition to the study of theory, continued with your early attempts at looking.' -------- N: My earlier attempts at looking? Did I have earlier attempts? Looking and observing? Scott wrote something about observing: Scott: I can be aware of some sensation, say in my hand after I bump it on a desk corner, and note when it arose, and then, many seconds later, after noting its 'persistence', can observe that it stops. Again there is much thinking - about hands and desks and pain. ------ Scott realized that this was thinking. We may notice that sound arises and stops, or pain arises and stops. We can certainly be reminded of impermanence, but is there not a danger here that it seems that one directly, without thinking, observes these things, but in reality it is not direct understanding, a cetasika, performing its function? Why do I wonder about this? Because first we have to understand intellectually hardness as rupa, sound as rupa, hearing as nama, and then consider them at the present moment when they appear. This is not yet perfect awareness, but it is beginning. To me this makes a great deal of sense: first intellectual understanding, correct understanding what nama and rupa are, what mindfulness is. This understanding can grow and it does grow. This understanding can condition direct awareness and understanding. But it is understanding that should be emphasized, from the beginning and all the way. But everybody should find out for himself what is helpful to him. Nina. #65418 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Scott) - In a message dated 11/18/06 9:49:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Scott), > ----------- > H: I was speaking metaphorically. By > 'looking' I meant "observing", and by "seeing" I meant cognizing > truly with > wisdom. To see the sense of my usage, recall that a synonym for > wisdom is 'vijja', > which literally means "sight". > ------- > N: Questions: > Observing what, how, when? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't think I understand your question. I mean to pay attention - to observe with attentiveness. And as for "when", any time you can. ----------------------------------------- > Vijja is the opposite of avijja, ignorance as you know. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, of course. ----------------------------------------- There is no > > meaning in Pali of vijja as sight. It is as you say, a synonym for > wisdom. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I have no idea why I thought that vijja (Skt 'vidya') carried the lieteral sense of "seeing". Obviously I was wrong in that. But as for my metaphorical use of "look" and "see", That is a common usage for me and for many others as well. In fact there is an expression describing someone who has no understanding as one who "looks but does not see". ----------------------------------------- > > Ignorance conceals the characteristics of sankhaara dhammas, > conditioned dhammas, their true nature, their momentary arising and > breaking up. > I wonder about a passage you wrote just before this post, and I > notice some concern in your words: > H: 'I conjecture that it might have been quite helpful to you > had you, in addition to the study of theory, continued with your early > attempts at looking.' > -------- > N: My earlier attempts at looking? Did I have earlier attempts? > Looking and observing? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, on 11/17 you wrote the following in reply to Scott: - - - - - - - - - - > N: Yes, to all of us: whole and comtinuous. Hearing Kh Sujin repeat > what seeing is, what hearing is, for years and years, helps to begin > gradually, gradually, to consider these realities, but not trying on > purpose, or staring at colour in order to know what seeing is. I did > that in the beginning. > - - - - - - - - - - It was that last "staring at colour in order to know what seeing is. I did that in the beginning" I was referring to. My understanding was that early on, in addition to listening to and contemplating the dhamma, you examined sense-door input intently with the intention of directly seeing its nature. But then you gave that up. My assertion is that such "looking" is for the good. ------------------------------------------- Scott wrote something about observing:> > > Scott: > I can be aware of some sensation, say in my hand after I bump it on a > desk corner, and note when it arose, and then, many seconds later, > after noting its 'persistence', can observe that it stops. Again > there is much thinking - about hands and desks and pain. > ------ > Scott realized that this was thinking. We may notice that sound > arises and stops, or pain arises and stops. We can certainly be > reminded of impermanence, but is there not a danger here that it > seems that one directly, without thinking, observes these things, but > in reality it is not direct understanding, a cetasika, performing its > function? > Why do I wonder about this? Because first we have to understand > intellectually hardness as rupa, sound as rupa, hearing as nama, and > then consider them at the present moment when they appear. This is > not yet perfect awareness, but it is beginning. To me this makes a > great deal of sense: first intellectual understanding, correct > understanding what nama and rupa are, what mindfulness is. This > understanding can grow and it does grow. This understanding can > condition direct awareness and understanding. > But it is understanding that should be emphasized, from the beginning > and all the way. ------------------------------------- Howard: Intellectual understanding is good and important. It can't grow into more, though, without direct examination of phenomena as they arise. That has to be cultivated by doing. ------------------------------------ > But everybody should find out for himself what is helpful to him. > Nina. > ================== With metta, Howard #65419 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:29 am Subject: Seeing Associations with Pali 'Vijja' (or Sanskrit 'Vidya') upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and all) - You are correct in saying that the Pali 'vijja' only means "wisdom". But there is still an indirect relationship to "seeing". The linguistic relationship can be seen in the following: (Proto-Indo-European) Wid/Vid ["See" or "Know"] v v v v v v (Latin) (Greek) Videre ["See" or "know"] [Several words for seeing & for knowing] v v v (Sanskrit) Vidya ["Knowing" or "Wisdom"] In English, the words video and vision are modern derivatives. Also the Russian word vidyet', meaning "to see". With metta, Howard #65420 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:32 am Subject: Re: Seeing Associations with Pali 'Vijja' (or Sanskrit 'Vidya') upasaka_howard Hi, Nina and all - In a message dated 11/18/06 12:29:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes: > Proto-Indo-European) > Wid/Vid ["See" or "Know"] > v > v > v v > v > v > ====================== Sorry for the way that appears. The 3 v's on the left should lie in a vertical line. Likewise the 3 on the right. With metta, Howard #65421 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing Associations with Pali 'Vijja' (or Sanskrit 'Vidya') nilovg Hi Howard, clear. Seeing with the eye of wisdom. Seeing is indeed used as understanding. Nina. Op 18-nov-2006, om 18:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > You are correct in saying that the Pali 'vijja' only means "wisdom". > But there is still an indirect relationship to "seeing". #65422 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing Associations with Pali 'Vijja' (or Sanskrit 'Vidya') upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/18/06 1:28:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > clear. Seeing with the eye of wisdom. Seeing is indeed used as > understanding. > Nina. > ====================== Thank you! After all my words, that is all that I really was after. LOL! With metta, Howard #65423 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:38 am Subject: A Retry Re: [dsg] Seeing Associations with Pali 'Vijja' (or Sanskrit 'Vidya') upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina & all - Well, I see that this came out terribly! Let me try a rewrite in a more intelligible form. I hope it is resent by Yahoo in the form written! ********************************** Hi, Nina (and all) - You are correct in saying that the Pali 'vijja' only means "wisdom". But there is still an indirect relationship to "seeing". The linguistic relationship can be seen in the following: ____________________________ Proto-Indo-European: Wid/Vid ["See" or "Know"] ---------> Greek: [Several words for seeing & for knowing] ---------> Sanskrit: Vidya ["Knowing" or "Wisdom"] ____________________________ And also: ____________________________ Proto-Indo-European: Wid/Vid ["See" or "Know"] ----------> Latin: Videre ["See" or "Know"] ____________________________ In English, the words video and vision are modern derivatives. Also the Russian word vidyet', meaning "to see". With metta, Howard #65424 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:59 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, Intro, 1. nilovg Letters on Vipassana, Intro. Dear friends, ******* Introduction I shall explain some terms and notions of the Dhamma I am using in order to facilitate the reading of this book. It is essential to know the difference between what is real in convential sense and what is real in the absolute or ultimate sense. If we only know conventional truth and do not know ultimate truth, the clinging to the concept of self and all other defilements cannot be eradicated. Notions such as person, world or tree are conventional truth, they are concepts we can think of, but they are not real in the ultimate sense. Mental phenomena or nåma and physical phenomena or rúpa are ultimate realities or paramattha dhammas. They have each their own inalterable characteristic, they are real for everybody; the names of realities can be changed but their characteristics are inalterable. Nåma is the reality which experiences something, whereas rúpa does not experience anything. Seeing, for example, is nåma, it experiences visible object which is rúpa. We may change the names “seeing” or “visible object”, but their characteristics cannot be changed. Seeing is real for everybody, anger is real for everybody, no matter how we name it. A person is not real in the ultimate sense, but what we take for a person consists of ever changing nåmas and rúpas. Citta, or a moment of consciousness, is nåma, it experiences an object. Seeing is a citta which experiences visible object, hearing is a citta which experiences sound. Cittas experience their appropriate objects through six doors, the doors of the senses and the mind-door. Cittas are variegated: some cittas are wholesome, kusala, some are unwholesome, akusala, and some are neither kusala nor akusala. One citta arises at a time and then falls away, to be succeeded by the next citta. Our life is an unbroken series of citta. Each citta is accompanied by several mental factors, cetasikas, which each perform their own function while they assist the citta in knowing the object. Some cetasikas accompany each citta, whereas other types of cetasikas accompany only particular types of citta. Attachment, lobha, aversion, dosa and ignorance, moha, are akusala cetasikas which accompany only akusala cittas. Non-attachment, alobha, non-aversion or kindness, adosa, and wisdom, amoha or paññå, are sobhana cetasikas, beautiful cetasikas, which can accompany only sobhana cittas. Citta and cetasika which are both nåma, arise because of their appropriate conditions. Wholesome qualities and unwholesome qualities which arose in the past can condition the arising of such qualities at present. Since each citta is succeeded by the next one wholesome qualities and unwholesome qualities can be accumulated from one moment to the next moment, and thus there are conditions for their arising at the present time. ***** Nina. #65425 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:03 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe, 125 nilovg Dear friends, When we study the Abhidhamma we should keep in mind the purpose of the Buddha's teachings: the eradication of defilements through the wisdom which realizes the phenomena appearing through the six doors as they are. Through this ``method'' there will be an end to the cycle of birth and death. We should remember that the Abhidhamma is not a theoretical textbook but an exposition of realities appearing in daily life. We learn about nåma and rúpa; we learn about cittas which each have their own function in the sense-door process and in the mind-door process. There are sense-door processes and mind-door processes time and again, and objects are experienced by cittas arising in these processes. If there is awareness of characteristics of nåma and rúpa when they appear, the paññå is developed which can eradicate defilements. This kind of wisdom is deeper than any kind of theoretical knowledge. Nåma and rúpa which arise and fall away are conditioned realities, they arise because of different conditions. Through the study of the Abhidhamma we learn about different conditions for nåma and rúpa. Each reality which arises is dependent on several conditions. For instance, seeing is vipåka, produced by kamma. Visible object conditions seeing by being its object (åramma.na). If there is no visible object there cannot be seeing. Eyesense, the kind of rúpa in the eye (pasåda-rúpa) which is able to receive visible object, is another condition for seeing. The rúpa which is eyesense can function as the door (in Påli: dvåra) for seeing. A door or ``dvåra'' is the means through which citta experiences an object. There is eyesense arising and falling away all the time; throughout our life it is produced by kamma. However, eyesense is not a door all the time, because there is not all the time the experience of visible object. Eyesense is a door only when citta experiences visible object. It is the same with the pasåda- rúpas which are the other sense-organs. They are doors only when they are the means through which citta experiences an object. The eye-door is the means through which citta experiences visible object. Not only the cittas which are eye-door-adverting- consciousness, cakkhu-dvåråvajjana-citta, and seeing-consciousness, cakkhu-viññåùa, experience the object through the eye-door, the other cittas of that process, which are receiving-consciousness, sampaìicchana-citta, investigating-consciousness, santíraùa-citta, determining-consciousness, votthapana-citta, the javana-cittas and the tadåramma.na-cittas (retention) are also dependent on the same door, in order to experience the object. All the cittas of that process experience the object through the eye-door while they each perform their own function. After the rúpa which is experienced by these cittas has fallen away, the object is experienced through the mind-door (mano-dvåra). ***** Nina. #65426 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:59 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, preface. nilovg Dear friends, Lodewijk said that he could not understand what sati of satipatthana is. I thought that reading to him from my Letters on vipassanaa would help. It is also good for dicussion here on dsg. Remarks, also contrarious ones, and discussions are always welcome. I need not repeat this. I begin with an Intro that for many may be repetitious, but I include it for newcomers. ******* Preface: This book consists of a compilation of letters on the Dhamma to Sarah Abbott, Alan Weller, Robert Kirkpatrick and other friends. These letters were written in the period between 1980 until 1992. The material I have used are tapes of Khun Sujin’s lectures and conversations with her on the development of right understanding. She encourages people to develop understanding of the present moment, since that is the way to the ultimate goal, namely, the eradication of the clinging to the concept of self and of all other defilements. What the Buddha taught is not mere theory, but it is to be applied right now, at this moment. The Buddha taught that all mental phenomena and physical phenomena which naturally appear in our daily life can be objects of mindfulness and right understanding. I greatly appreciate Khun Sujin’s constant reminders to develop right understanding naturally, and not to force oneself to particular practices. Before one realizes it one is lured by clinging to the idea of self. The scriptures are subtle, profound in meaning, and when one is reading them one may be deluded by wrong understanding. Khun Sujin’s clear explanations of the Dhamma are of immense value and can have a great impact on one’s life. I hope that the reader will find these letters on vipassanå beneficial. ****** Nina. #65427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:29 am Subject: ADL 119, nimitta. nilovg Hi Howard, I was so surprised at your remark that staring is good, had not expected that. I told Lodewijk this and he repeated what he has said several times now when I spoke about you: "Howard must come along to India with us in Oct. next year. A new world opens up for him. And he should bring Rita too." Now back to staring. ----- H:Nina, on 11/17 you wrote the following in reply to Scott: - - - - - - - - - - > N: Yes, to all of us: whole and comtinuous. Hearing Kh Sujin repeat > what seeing is, what hearing is, for years and years, helps to begin > gradually, gradually, to consider these realities, but not trying on > purpose, or staring at colour in order to know what seeing is. I did > that in the beginning. > - - - - - - - - - - H: It was that last "staring at colour in order to know what seeing is. I did that in the beginning" I was referring to. My understanding was that early on, in addition to listening to and contemplating the dhamma, you examined sense-door input intently with the intention of directly seeing its nature. But then you gave that up. My assertion is that such "looking" is for the good. ------------------------------------------- N: Staring is not normal seeing, it is not the way to learn the nature of seeing. It is an idea of self who desires to know and that is the wrong Path. I did not go along with this for long or often. Sati of satipatthana is not concentration, it is understanding. Why should we not be content to investigate dhammas as they occur because of their own conditions, why interfere? Seeing is just normal seeing, not staring. And you never know beforehand whether hearing will arise, or great pain. If we select we do not see conditions. As Rob K often says: phenomena roll along. We cannot stop them, or select a few at will. Then we shall not know what sati is. Sati has its own way, and it is depending on correct intellectual understanding and also on firm sa~n~na that remembers what we heard, it is the proximate cause. ******* H: Intellectual understanding is good and important. It can't grow into more, though, without direct examination of phenomena as they arise. That has to be cultivated by doing. ------ N: I agree except with the last: by doing. I would say instead of doing: by more and more correct understanding of what sati is and what its object. We think we have understood, but perhaps not yet. Moreover, we should not have expectations, that is desire. ------- N: Questions: > Observing what, how, when? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't think I understand your question. I mean to pay attention - to observe with attentiveness. And as for "when", any time you can. ----- N: I would like a more precise answer. Observe what? Observe when? And what exactly is this observing, how does it operate? My insistence has a reason: here we touch on what sati is, so difficult to understand and express in words. ***** Nina. #65428 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:38 am Subject: texts Vibhanga on seeing. nilovg Dear Scott, thank you, also for the Pali. I like this one: paccakkhato: this the immediate realization of its characteristic (I prefer this to individual essence). In Thai people speak about paccak, they want to directlly realize the Truth and are disheartened when they do not achieve this yet. Text: "Therein what is eye-consciousness element? Depending on eye and on visible (objects) there arises consciousness, mind, ideation, heart (i.e. consciousness), lucence, (i.e. consciousness), mind, mind base, controlling faculty of mind, consciousness, the aggregate of consciousness; and, depending on the aforesaid, eye-consciousness element. This is called eye-consciousness element." Vibha"nga 184-186, p.p. 112-113. ------- N: A little further under mind-element and mind-consciousness element we find references to the cittas arising in a process . Do you have the Dispeller of Delusion, its co, I, p. 96, where all this is further elaborated on. Nina. #65429 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/18/06 2:51:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I was so surprised at your remark that staring is good, had not > expected that. I told Lodewijk this and he repeated what he has said > several times now when I spoke about you: "Howard must come along to > India with us in Oct. next year. A new world opens up for him. And he > should bring Rita too." > Now back to staring. > ----- > H:Nina, on 11/17 you wrote the following in reply to Scott: > - - - - - - - - - - > >N: Yes, to all of us: whole and comtinuous. Hearing Kh Sujin repeat > >what seeing is, what hearing is, for years and years, helps to begin > >gradually, gradually, to consider these realities, but not trying on > >purpose, or staring at colour in order to know what seeing is. I did > >that in the beginning. > > > - - - - - - - - - - > H: It was that last "staring at colour in order to know what seeing > is. I > did > that in the beginning" I was referring to. My understanding was that > early > on, in addition to listening to and contemplating the dhamma, you > examined > sense-door input intently with the intention of directly seeing its > nature. But > then you gave that up. My assertion is that such "looking" is for the > good. > > ------------------------------------------- > N: Staring is not normal seeing, it is not the way to learn the > nature of seeing. It is an idea of self who desires to know and that > is the wrong Path. I did not go along with this for long or often. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I had no idea that by "staring" you literally meant to be staring wide-eyed, and with a sense of an "I" who is staring! As I said above, "My understanding was that early on, in addition to listening to and contemplating the dhamma, you examined sense-door input intently with the intention of directly seeing its nature." Such careful paying attention is, IMO. very, very good, and very, very useful, and very, very much a central part of Dhamma practice. I do not envision a teeth-gritting, furrowed-brow intensity, but a calm and watchful attending. --------------------------------------------- > Sati of satipatthana is not concentration, it is understanding. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I said nothing of concentration, though of course some must be present. What I had in mind was sati, the mindfulness or mental monitoring that remembers to stay present, avoiding getting lost on thought. As for sati being understanding, I don't think that is so. But it is crucial for understanding. ---------------------------------------------- > Why should we not be content to investigate dhammas as they occur > because of their own conditions, why interfere? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Because doing so is exactly what all sentient beings do. It is false that all sentient beings are practicing Dhamma. It is even false for those humans who have read the Tipitaka but otherwise act exactly as all other people do, not attending to what arises, not staying present, but always getting lost in thought. -------------------------------------------- Seeing is just normal > > seeing, not staring. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Samsara is normal too. Bodhi is abnormal, and the Dhamma goes against the stream. Again, as to "staring", well, as I said, evidently what you were doing isn't what I thought you were doing. --------------------------------------------- And you never know beforehand whether hearing > > will arise, or great pain. If we select we do not see conditions. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I said NOTHING about selecting. Whay do you speak of that when all that I spoke of what clearly attending to whatever arises in the moment, avoiding getting lost in thought? ---------------------------------------------- > As Rob K often says: phenomena roll along. We cannot stop them, or > select a few at will. Then we shall not know what sati is. Sati has > its own way, and it is depending on correct intellectual > understanding and also on firm sa~n~na that remembers what we heard, > it is the proximate cause. > ******* > H: Intellectual understanding is good and important. It can't grow into > more, though, without direct examination of phenomena as they arise. > That has > to be cultivated by doing. > ------ > N: I agree except with the last: by doing. I would say instead of > doing: by more and more correct understanding of what sati is and > what its object. We think we have understood, but perhaps not yet. > Moreover, we should not have expectations, that is desire. ------------------------------------ Howard: If there is no doing, then there is not even any studying, for that is doing. The word 'doing' is not profanity. --------------------------------------- > ------- > N: Questions: > >Observing what, how, when? > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I don't think I understand your question. I mean to pay attention - to > observe with attentiveness. And as for "when", any time you can. > ----- > N: I would like a more precise answer. Observe what? Observe when? > And what exactly is this observing, how does it operate? --------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry, without knowing what you are actually after, I can't do any better. -------------------------------------------- > My insistence has a reason: here we touch on what sati is, so > difficult to understand and express in words. > ***** > Nina. > > ===================== With metta, Howard #65430 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - I may have been unclear in the following: > >Why should we not be content to investigate dhammas as they occur > >because of their own conditions, why interfere? > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Because doing so is exactly what all sentient beings do. It is false > that all sentient beings are practicing Dhamma. It is even false for those > humans who have read the Tipitaka but otherwise act exactly as all other > people > do, not attending to what arises, not staying present, but always getting > lost > in thought. > ===================== What I meant here by "doing so" is the standard behavior of people in *not* interfering, and simply knowing what arises without any special attention. When nothing special is done, nothing special can be expected to result. Dogs and cats experience dhammas when they arise also. With metta, Howard #65431 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > >> Hi Joop >> > .... > > Hallo Jon, > > Jon: "My meaning was, unless ignorance has been completely eradicated > by the time death comes, there will still be conditions for the > continuation of becoming." > > Joop: Yes, in the 'three lifetimes' application of DO. But, as you > know, I'm more using the 'one lifetime' application in which death > and birth are not used in literal-physical way but metaphorical. > The question I was addressing is whether the teaching on DO as given by the Buddha is limited to a single lifetime, or whether it was given as applying to life in samsara generally (i.e., beyond the span of a single lifetime). If one says that it was given as applying only to a single lifetime, then I cannot see what the profound significance of it would be (especially in instance of the reverse application mentioned in my earlier post) or what it adds to the rest of the teachings. > Joop: > >> But Theravada doesn't like any more even the >> possibility of sudden awakenings, is my impression. >> > Jon: "Not at all. There are plenty of instances in the Theravada > teachings of sudden awakenings" > > Joop: You can not read, I think because you cannot imagine that there > is any dynamics in Theravada > I wrote "any more", so about Theravava in this century. And I did > that after I described the sudden awakening of Sariputta as can be > read in the Suttas, so there was no reason to teach me that "there > are plenty of instances in the Theravada teachings of sudden > awakenings" > > Jon: "(but all have a rational explanation in terms of insight > knowledge gained in previous lifetimes)" > > Joop: I forgive you the use of the term 'rational': funny use of the > term by somebody who states that 'discursive thinking' is not > important. > I don't think I have ever said that discursive thinking is not important; only that it's not the same as direct insight. > But more central: I think these explanations are given in > commentaries, not in the Suttas. > There are many descriptions of sudden awakening in the Thera-Theri Gatha, which is part of the Kuddhaka Nikaya. > And less important: I think Sariputta and others got this insight > knowledge in this lifetime: one lifetime is enough to get enough > insight to awaken. > So my question to you: do you think, one lifetime is nog enough to > awaken? > Firstly, as regards your comment about Sariputta, to my understanding it would not be possible for any person to acquire knowledge of the conditioned nature of dhammas other than from hearing the teachings of a Buddha. Secondly, as regards your question, I can only say that it's obviously not enough for the vast majority of people. What's your view on this question? > Jon: "… contemplating on the 'this, that' formula must involve a kind > of discursive thinking, whereas insight is the direct experiencing by > panna of the characteristic of a presently arisen dhamma." > > Joop: I think we had to do both. > Discursive thinking can be kusala or akusala; if kusala, can be with or without panna (and panna can be of the level of insight or not of that level). So it is not discursive thinking but panna of the level of insight knowledge that distinguishes mundane path moments from non-path moments. As regards the conditions for the arising of such mundane path moments, these include understanding the aspects of the true dhamma that are heard and reflecting on those aspects that have been understood, both of which clearly involve discursive thinking. But it is discursive thinking that is accompanied by panna of the appropriate level; discursive thinking itself is not something that needs to be developed. Jon #65432 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >> I think it's a safe bet that the idea of 'stamping out all akusala' was >> not something newly proclaimed by the Buddha but was in fact an aspect >> of extant teachings at the time of his enlightenment. >> >> So what is it that the Buddha discovered that was unknown in the world >> immediately before his enlightenment? The teaching on 'not-self' is not >> to be discovered by stamping out all akusala, but by seeing more clearly >> any presently arisen dhamma. >> >> Jon >> > ====================== > Quite so, Jon, but that's not the point. Regardless of what was unique > to the Buddha's teaching, he DID urge active opposition to akusala states. > This is the first have of what constitutes Right Effort. > But I think that what was unique to the Buddha's teaching, being its very essence, is very much to the point when considering exactly what the Buddha said elsewhere in the teachings, for example about 'stamping out akusala like a grass fire'. Did the Buddha urge 'active opposition to akusala states', as you suggest, or did he urge the development of kusala of all kinds on any occasion (I think you'd agree that the two are not the same)? As regards kusala/akusala generally, there were many, many people before the Buddha's enlightenment who saw the danger in akusala states conditioned by consciousness arising at the five sense-doors (i.e., akusala states other than wrong view and craving for becoming), and who were able to stamp out those akusala states (temporarily) by the development of samatha to the highest levels of mundane jhana. However, mundane jhana itself is not the insight that sees presently arising dhammas as they truly are (the essence of the teachings). That insight has to be developed regardless of one's level of samatha/jhana attainment, and there is no direct link between the two. The Buddha taught that *all* states regardless of their ethical quality are conditioned dhammas to be seen as they truly are. The arising of the mundane insight that understands this (however weak and tentative that insight may be; we all start from where we are) may occur regardless of the general level of kusala or akusala that precedes or follows it. Jon #65433 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) jonoabb Phil Phil wrote: > Hi Sukin (and Jon) > > ... > p.s Jon, I haven't read your post - I said I'd leave the last word > to you, but I imagine what I babbled above contains anything I would > have said in response. > Enjoyed reading your babbles, as usual. However, you haven't addressed the question of why 'stressing sila' should mean any lessening of interest in the development of insight. To my understanding, the two (and samatha as a third) sit very comfortably together. Just think how much better your perspective on sila is because of your interest in the other aspects of the teachings, especially the insights gained over the past year or two. > p.p.s last word to you Sukin. I am hoping to gradually shift to > discussing only re paramattha dhammas and not the "practice" thing. > I still believe it is essential for me to build my understanding of > paramattha dhammas even though I doubt that I can understand them > directly. "Understand more about" dhammas, gradually, rather > than "understand" or "be aware of the characteristics of" dhammas, > for me, it seems. I hate to say "understand in theory", because it > suggests that is the only way they can be understood, which is not > the case, of course. I think that *direct understanding of* dhammas needs a lot of *understanding (in theory) about* dhammas as its support. So I pretty much agree with what you say here. In fact I had thought that was how you saw things all along. Were you secretly 'doing' something else? ;-)) ! Jon #65434 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/18/06 8:27:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > But I think that what was unique to the Buddha's teaching, being its > very essence, is very much to the point when considering exactly what > the Buddha said elsewhere in the teachings, for example about 'stamping > out akusala like a grass fire'. Did the Buddha urge 'active opposition > to akusala states', as you suggest, or did he urge the development of > kusala of all kinds on any occasion (I think you'd agree that the two > are not the same)? > ====================== He urged both. With metta, Howard #65435 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:32 pm Subject: med 2/5 lbidd2 Q: One of the six virtues of a bodhisattva is energy, exertion, virya. It is hard to relate this virtue to the idea of a waiting intelligence. R: Well, I don't see any problems, particularly. You see, hardworkingness or exertion does not necessarily mean doing a lot of things. Waiting in itself could be very hard work, being is very hard work, and there are so many temptations not to do it. Q: Is there some kind of recognizable psychological event which particularly reinstigates the process of the five skandhas and of karma? R: Yes, that is what is called "immediate cause." It is the immediate occasion of getting into a further series of events, a sort of stepping-stone. Each transition has to have that intermediary moment. Even in sleep things function that way. It allows you to fall asleep from being awake and in dreams pushes you from one moment to the next and then makes it possible to wake up again. Karma is dependent on that state, that immediate cause. It cannot function without it. The whole idea of the practice of meditation is that in the meditative state you do not have that impulse. That suddenness or the restlessness is automatically freed; that sudden impulse has been transmuted into a flowing process though the use of a meditation technique. That is how the process of meditation can be a way of preventing planting the seed of karma. #65436 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:34 pm Subject: med 3/5 lbidd2 from "Abhidharma" by Chogyam Trungpa Q: It seems from what you've been saying that meditation in action has something to do with going very much into detail. You know something and then something else comes along. And if you could just go along with that new detail-- R: Well, you see, awareness meditation, meditation in action, is a process of providing fundamental space. If you are talking or you are doing things, you are acting within that open space, so that no sudden jolt can happen, no sudden confusion or slothfulness. That abrupt clicking-in of confusion can only take place if the ground, the basic space, has been solidified or frozen. The karmic process operates against that kind of solidified background. Whereas once that solidity has been transformed by acknowledging there is another aspect to it, which is open space, openness, then any kind of sudden, impulsive movement is accommodated. Still the same rhythm goes on, but that rhythm now becomes a creative movement. The rhythm of events goes on, but you appreciate that that rhythm can happen on space, on open ground, and this brings back the message of meditation happening. So you do not have to force yourself to remember; you do not have to try to maintain your awareness all the time. Once you are open to the challenges of the moment, somehow, as you go along, the situation flashes back and a highly precise one as well. Q: If the situation doesn't flash back that awareness, then you forget it? R: Well, you disown whatever comes up. If you try to keep up and maintain something, then it does not work. It becomes your product. You are solidifying space again. #65437 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:36 pm Subject: med 4/5 lbidd2 from "Abhidharma" by Chogyam Trungpa Q: Getting back to that transitional moment in karma where it picks up impetus. Do I understand that as you advance in your meditation you notice this happening, and by noticing it you can prevent it from happening and control the situation? Once you notice what leads to the karma, do the steps become much easier to deal with? R: Well, that is rather tricky. Theoretically you might know the whole thing, but once you have the idea in mind that what you are doing is trying to escape from karma, to step out of it, then you are already doublecrossed. The probability then is that you are automatically not in the right state of mind. That is why it is important in meditation practice that at the time of practice everything is just based on a simple technique, but with no aim or object at all, none whatsoever. You give up everything and go along with the practice entirely and fully. Q: Yes, but in daily situations I think it's helpful to deliberately notice things happening. R: You see, in daily situations if you have a certain understanding of the continuous quality of the meditation experience happening all the time, then, without trying to meditate deliberately, you automatically know the daily situation, because the daily situation comes to you as a reminder, rather than your trying to go to it. It becomes a perpetual creative process. #65438 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:38 pm Subject: med 5/5 lbidd2 from "Abhidharma" by Chogyam Trungpa Q: You have talked about creation at times as though it were an ego process and now as though it is more egoless. Could you clarify? R: I suppose you could say there is ego creation and true creation. I think here again it is a question of whether or not the notion of competitive achievement, of an ideal or a goal is present. With ego's notion of creation you have a concept that you want to achieve something, and you try to match your situation with your idea of the actual achievement. You compare the dream and the actual reality. That is not the ultimate creative process but a one-way creation which can wear out. You build a thing and it is finished; you have no further place to go. It is a very limited inspiration. Whereas in the other approach without aim or object, without a goal in mind, each situation brings another, it opens another possibility. So you go along and along. That is like the experience of the bodhisattva developing through the bhumis or stages of development. When one bhumi is accomplished, he goes on to the next. Without ambition he goes on and on. He has no desire for enlightenment, but one situation leads to another until he finds himself enlightened one day. This is because he relates to things on their own merits rather than in terms of a goal of his own. So the ambition type of creation is that of ego. The alternative is to have natural appreciation of the creation itself rather than being fascinated by what _you_ are doing. If you tune into the actual creativity itself, the delight of it, it becomes an inexhaustible source of creativity. #65439 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:30 pm Subject: med 1/5 was Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. lbidd2 Hi Howard and Nina, I happened to be reading something that relates to this thread. It's a little bit long, but there's something for both of you. From "Abhidharma" by Chogyam Trungpa. This is basically a series of talks on abhidharma as taught in the Tibetan Karma Kagyu tradition, and the part I'm quoting is from one of the question and response sessions. Question: You spoke of an aerial view of the five skandhas. Do you mean that with the development of meditative awareness one can actually experience the development of the skandhas in oneself? Rimpoche: Yes. In a sudden glimpse of awareness, or in the meditation state, one sees the ups and downs of the five skandhas taking place and dissolving and beginning to develop again.The whole idea of meditation is to develop what is called the "wisdom eye", praj~naparamita, transcending knowledge. It is knowledge, information, at the beginning, when you are watching yourself and beginning to discover yourself, your psychological pattern. And suddenly, strangely, that watching process begins to become an experiencing process, and it is, in a sense, already under control. That does not mean to say that development of the five skandhas would stop taking place. The skandhas happen continuously until they are transmuted into what are called the "five tathagathas," the five types of awakened being. You see, at the beginning, we have to develop a very sharp, precise mind to see what we are. There is no other way of sharpening our intelligence. Pure intellectual speculation would not sharpen it at all, because there you have to introduce so much stuff that blunts, that overclouds. The only way to do it is just to leave intelligence as it is with the help of some technique. Then the intelligence begins to learn how to relax and wait and allow what takes place to reflect in it. The learning process becomes a reflection rather than creating things. So waiting and letting what arises reflect on the intelligence is the meditation practice. It is like letting a pond settle down so the true reflection can be seen.There are already so many mental activities going on constantly. Adding further mental activities does not sharpen the intelligence. The only way is just to let it develop, grow. #65440 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:10 pm Subject: Final Wisdom ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 3 Supramundane Mental Abilities? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these three abilities. What three? 1: The ability to come to know, what one did not yet know... 2: The ability to gradually attain the highest & final wisdom... 3: The ability of one dwelling in the highest and final wisdom... These are the three abilities. ____________________________________________________ Source of reference (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V: 204] 48 The Mental Abilities: 23 Final Wisdom.. For Details on the Abilities (indriya) & Final Knowledge (anna) see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/indriya.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Origin_of_Abilities.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/a/annaa.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Final_Knowledge.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Final_Knowledge.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Final_Freedom.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #65441 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:17 am Subject: ADL 119, nimitta. nilovg Hi Howard, We had a misunderstanding about staring, and now my other remarks such as concentrating have become redundant. You do not need to answer, since you are not inclined to lenghty debates. I just have a few remarks. ---------- H: Such careful paying attention is, IMO. very, very good, and very, very useful, and very, very much a central part of Dhamma practice. I do not envision a teeth-gritting, furrowed-brow intensity, but a calm and watchful attending. -------- N: Thank you for all the reminders in your post, they are well taken. ---------- H: Intellectual understanding is good and important. It can't grow into > more, though, without direct examination of phenomena as they arise. > That has > to be cultivated by doing. ------------------------------------ Howard: If there is no doing, then there is not even any studying, for that is doing. The word 'doing' is not profanity. ------- N: I get what you mean. doing can be taken in the wrong way: I am the doer, or it can mean as you say: energy to go on developing understanding, not taking a halt midway, as I read in the teachings. --------------------------------------- H: What I meant here by "doing so" is the standard behavior of people in *not* interfering, and simply knowing what arises without any special attention. When nothing special is done, nothing special can be expected to result. Dogs and cats experience dhammas when they arise also. ------ N: I have to explain more about not interfering. See below. And you never know beforehand whether hearing > > will arise, or great pain. If we select we do not see conditions. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I said NOTHING about selecting. Why do you speak of that when all that I spoke of what clearly attending to whatever arises in the moment, avoiding getting lost in thought? ------------------------------ N: ? This should not be excluded. It happens so often. Perhaps here we have a different approach. But it needs a longer explanation. Not interfering, not selecting, I make a few remarks about this. I am not sure I am clear enough. I try anyway. Not interfering, not like dogs and cats, but: not interfering with right understanding of kamma and vipaka, of the latent tendencies. An example: today we have a difficult day, very unusual: going to a musical event where we also have to perform, a crowd of people, long standing (we can't very well do this, being old), some anxiety about our performance. It is a surprise what kamma has in store, but I cannot select the seeing, hearing etc. kamma produces these already. No interference possible, but this is said with some understanding of kamma and vipaka. Then the reaction: with kusala citta or akusala citta? That depends on conditions, on the accumulated good and bad tendencies. which of these will win? A surprise. Not interfering, but taking them as they come along, they *can* be objects of right understanding. Will they? Who can predict conditions. Even now I am thinking about the future, and that is only nama that is conditioned. A distracting thought? It has to be known also, as a conditioned nama, it should not be left out. It conditions rupas, and these can be known too. If we keep in mind not to interfere it means: let dhammas occur as they occur already, and develop understanding of whatever occurs now, be it distracting thoughts. If we really understand this, it can condition mindfulness of whatever occurs. Then we do not put hindrances in the way of mindfulness. I think this is an important point. I may be inclined to think: how much sati is there already (I am careful not to include you)? I think one should not measure how much or how little sati there is. To me that seems to be an idea of 'I have sati'. ---------- N:Observe what? Observe when? > And what exactly is this observing, how does it operate? Instead of observing I prefer: investigating. what: any dhamma that appears already because of its own condiitons, excluding nothing, absolutely nothing. when: when that dhamma occurs. I depart from the dhamma, not from anything else, not from a thought that I have to be aware as much as I can. Such a thought can be motivated by: I do it. But, to be sincere, such a thought is likely to arise so long as we are not sotapannas. But it is good to know that this is not helpful. How does it operate: when the right conditions are present, only then. I write more on this to Larry. ****** Nina. #65442 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:30 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, Intro 2. nilovg Dear friends, Some cittas are results of akusala kamma and kusala kamma, they are vipåkacittas. Kamma is intention or volition. An unwholesome volition can motivate an unwholesome deed which can bring an unpleasant result later on, and a wholesome volition can motivate a wholesome deed which can bring a pleasant result later on. Akusala kamma and kusala kamma are accumulated from one moment to the next moment of citta, and thus they can produce result later on. Kamma produces result in the form of rebirth-consciousness, or, in the course of life, in the form of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and the experience of tangible object through the bodysense. These vipåkacittas experience pleasant objects or unpleasant objects, depending on the kamma which produces them. Cittas which experience objects through the six doors arise in a process of cittas. When, for example, hearing arises, it occurs within a series or process of cittas, all of which experience sound. Only hearing-consciousness hears, but the other cittas within that process, which is called the ear-door process, perform each their own function. Hearing-consciousness is vipåkacitta, it merely hears the sound, it neither likes it nor dislikes it. After hearing- consciousness has fallen away there are, within that process, akusala cittas or kusala cittas which experience the sound with unwholesomeness or with wholesomeness. There can be akusala cittas with attachment or with aversion towards the sound, or there can be kusala cittas. There are processes of cittas experiencing an object through the eye-door, the ear-door, the nose-door, the tongue-door, the body-door and the mind-door. After the cittas of a sense-door process have fallen away, the object is experienced by cittas arising in a mind-door process, and after that process has been completed there can be other mind-door processes of cittas which think of concepts. Cittas arise and fall away in succession so rapidly that it seems that cittas such as seeing and thinking of what is seen occur at the same time, but in reality there are different types of citta arising in different processes. We believe, for example, that we see a table, but in reality there is a process of cittas experiencing visible object through the eyesense, and then there is a process of cittas experiencing visible object through the mind-door, and later on there are other mind-door processes of cittas which think of the concept of table. For the development of right understanding it is important to know that there are different cittas which experience different objects through the six doorways. ******** Nina. #65443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:27 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 126 nilovg Dear friends, Cittas arising in a process which experience an object through one of the six doors are víthi-cittas (víthi means: way, course or process). Víthi-cittas are named after the door through which they experience an object. For example, the cittas which experience an object through the eye-door are called cakkhu-dvåra-víthi-cittas (cakkhu-dvåra means eye-door). The cittas which experience an object through the ear-door (sota-dvåra) are called sota-dvåra-víthi-cittas. The cittas which experience an object through the mind-door (mano-dvåra) are called mano-dvåra-víthi-cittas. In between the different processes of citta there have to be bhavanga- cittas (life-continuum). Bhavanga-cittas are not víthi-cittas. They are not part of the process of cittas experiencing objects which time and again throughout our life impinge on the six doors. They experience an object without being dependent on any doorway. As we have seen (in chapter 15), the pa.tisandhi-citta, rebirth- consciousness, the bhavanga-cittas and the cuti-citta, dying consciousness, in one lifespan experience the same object as the last javana-cittas which arose before the cuti-citta of the previous life. The pa.tisandhi-citta, the bhavanga-citta and the cuti-citta are ``process-free cittas'' (víthi-mutta cittas), thus, they are different from the cittas arising in sense-door processes and mind- door processes. Some cittas perform their function only through one door. For example, the two types of citta which are hearing-consciousness, sota- viññåùa, which can be kusala vipåka or akusala vipåka, only perform their functions through one door, the ear-door. Some cittas can perform their function through more than one door. Sampa.ticchana- citta, receiving-consciousness, performs its function of receiving the object through five doors, depending on the doorway which is contacted by the object. Santíra.na-citta, investigating- consciousness, performs different functions through different doorways. It performs the function of investigating the object through the five sense-doors, and it can perform the function of tadåramma.na (retention or registering, occurring after the javana- cittas) through six doorways. It also performs functions without being dependent on any doorway and this is the case when it performs the functions of pa.tisandhi, bhavanga and cuti. ******* Nina. #65444 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:49 am Subject: Re: med 1/5 was Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. nilovg Hi Larry, I am conditioned in such a way not to believe in a technique. To sharpen the intelligence? I think that it is pa~n~naa itself that will become keen and sharp because of the right conditions. These are, as I see it: first the development of intellectual understanding by reading, discussing, asking questions and also the development of all the perfections. That is to say, including energy, determination, patience and perseverance to go on investigating dhammas, life after life. Not being attached to the idea of 'I want a result of my practice, when will it come?'. You quote: And this is good: not creating things, but I would say: not creating a technique either. Quote: N: It does not matter that there are many activities, any mental activity can and should be object of understanding. And also understanding itself should be known, otherwise we take it for 'my understanding develops'. I myself tend to forget this! Nina. Op 19-nov-2006, om 5:30 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > You see, at the beginning, we have to develop a very sharp, precise > mind > to see what we are. There is no other way of sharpening our > intelligence. Pure intellectual speculation would not sharpen it at > all, > because there you have to introduce so much stuff that blunts, that > overclouds. The only way to do it is just to leave intelligence as > it is > with the help of some technique. #65445 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:04 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 584 - The Stages of Insight(f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd When the moments of insight knowledge, vipassanå ñåùa, have fallen away it seems again that realities appear as a “whole”, as the world. Understanding is still weak. It depends on the accumulated wisdom of the individual which kinds of nåma and rúpa have been penetrated by insight, it may have been only a few kinds. The understanding which was gained at the moments of vipassanå ñåùa has to be applied again and again and one has to continue to be mindful of all kinds of nåma and rúpa which appear. The concept of self is so deeply rooted that it cannot be eradicated at the first stage of insight. Understanding has to develop further in order to eradicate it. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65446 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:12 am Subject: Re: med 1/5 was Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 11/18/06 11:54:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Howard and Nina, > > I happened to be reading something that relates to this thread. It's a > little bit long, but there's something for both of you. > From "Abhidharma" by Chogyam Trungpa. This is basically a series of > talks on abhidharma as taught in the Tibetan Karma Kagyu tradition, and > the part I'm quoting is from one of the question and response sessions. > > Question: You spoke of an aerial view of the five skandhas. Do you mean > that with the development of meditative awareness one can actually > experience the development of the skandhas in oneself? > > Rimpoche: Yes. In a sudden glimpse of awareness, or in the meditation > state, one sees the ups and downs of the five skandhas taking place and > dissolving and beginning to develop again.The whole idea of meditation > is to develop what is called the "wisdom eye", praj~naparamita, > transcending knowledge. It is knowledge, information, at the beginning, > when you are watching yourself and beginning to discover yourself, your > psychological pattern. And suddenly, strangely, that watching process > begins to become an experiencing process, and it is, in a sense, already > under control. That does not mean to say that development of the five > skandhas would stop taking place. The skandhas happen continuously until > they are transmuted into what are called the "five tathagathas," the > five types of awakened being. > > You see, at the beginning, we have to develop a very sharp, precise mind > to see what we are. There is no other way of sharpening our > intelligence. Pure intellectual speculation would not sharpen it at all, > because there you have to introduce so much stuff that blunts, that > overclouds. The only way to do it is just to leave intelligence as it is > with the help of some technique. Then the intelligence begins to learn > how to relax and wait and allow what takes place to reflect in it. The > learning process becomes a reflection rather than creating things. So > waiting and letting what arises reflect on the intelligence is the > meditation practice. It is like letting a pond settle down so the true > reflection can be seen.There are already so many mental activities going > on constantly. Adding further mental activities does not sharpen the > intelligence. The only way is just to let it develop, grow. > > ======================== Thanks for this, Larry. This 1st one is a lot clearer to me the the other four. The only really odd thing about this piece is the "Five Tathagata" terminology! With metta, Howard #65447 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/19/06 4:25:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I said NOTHING about selecting. Why do you speak of that when all > that I spoke of what clearly attending to whatever arises in the > moment, avoiding > getting lost in thought? > ------------------------------ > N: ? This should not be excluded. > It happens so often. > ======================== I distinguish between thinking occurring and getting lost in thought. Thinking is normal, legitimate operation. Getting lost in thought is the result of weak mindfulness and of active craving and aversion. With metta, Howard #65448 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 11/19/06 4:25:40 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Not interfering, not like dogs and cats, but: not interfering with > right understanding of kamma and vipaka, of the latent tendencies. > An example: today we have a difficult day, very unusual: going to a > musical event where we also have to perform, a crowd of people, long > standing (we can't very well do this, being old), some anxiety about > our performance. It is a surprise what kamma has in store, but I > cannot select the seeing, hearing etc. kamma produces these already. > No interference possible, but this is said with some understanding of > kamma and vipaka. Then the reaction: with kusala citta or akusala > citta? That depends on conditions, on the accumulated good and bad > tendencies. which of these will win? A surprise. Not interfering, but > taking them as they come along, they *can* be objects of right > understanding. Will they? Who can predict conditions. > Even now I am thinking about the future, and that is only nama that > is conditioned. A distracting thought? It has to be known also, as a > conditioned nama, it should not be left out. It conditions rupas, and > these can be known too. > If we keep in mind not to interfere it means: let dhammas occur as > they occur already, and develop understanding of whatever occurs now, > be it distracting thoughts. If we really understand this, it can > condition mindfulness of whatever occurs. Then we do not put > hindrances in the way of mindfulness. I think this is an important > point. > ========================== It should *all*, ideally, be known, distracting thoughts included. This is done by energetically staying present with *whatever* arises, not getting swept up by (or lost in) thought. Whatever arises, arises, except there is one disclaimer: Mindfulness is a tool for the 4 right efforts, as follows - ___________________________ "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."— SN 45.8 ========================= With metta, Howard #65449 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Bu... jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: >> I think this is the same thing as what I referred to earlier as control >> in the conventional sense: because there are acts of volition that >> bring the intended result, there can be said to be a degree of control. >> > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, such control is not an individual namic operation. It is a > complex viewed as a single thing for purposes of discussion. I have clarified > exactly what I mean by "control". The more effective such a complex of actions is in > leading to the goal, the more is it "control". Obviously not all attempts at > control succeed. Many don't succeed at all. And I never claimed that there is > a control paramattha dhamma. That is a straw man. > ------------------------------------------ > And I wasn't suggesting you had claimed there is a control paramattha dhamma. (Does that make your 'straw man' itself a straw man?!) But if attempts at control are not successful in a proportion of cases, and those instances cannot be predicted (i.e., the factors necessary for successful control are not known), it could be said that this makes control a matter of 'dumb luck'. >> The fact that we then go further and say we understand there to be only >> conditioned dhammas underlying such acts of intention does not change >> the 'conventional' nature of the observation. > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Viewing such a complex as a single phenomenon is mere convention. That > is so. So what? > Nothing really, just making sure we're using the language in the same way here. > Viewing an airplane as a single phenomenon is no different. It doesn't > stop you from making flights, does it? > --------------------------------------------- > Agreed. >> But even at this level, we should consider the obvious fact of a certain >> 'failure rate' in volitional actions bringing their intended results, >> and also at a more micro level the question of whether we can predict >> with any certainly the exact objects that will next be experienced >> through any of the doorways. >> > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, there is failure. We are not all-powerful. So? > I make no claim of absolute control. But some here make the claim of > NO control! > ---------------------------------------- > In terms of paramattha dhammas, it seems to me that (a) the presently arisen dhamma has occurred already and (b) there is no knowing what dhamma/s will follow it, so in that (ultimate/absolute) sense there is no control. It's only when we think or speak in conventional language that it's possible to assert there is a degree of control. >>> In >>> fact, it's all a matter of impersonal conditions that have effect. I may >>> *speak* of "someone controlling something," but that is just a manner of >>> speaking, and I understand what the actual facts of the matter are. And >>> these facts aren't just theory. They can be seen directly by looking at >>> what actually occurs. The more we look, the more and better we can see. >>> >> Well, it all depends on what specifically you mean when you say 'looking >> at what actually occurs'. >> > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, it wouldn't be good if I meant by that "roasting chestnuts on an > open fire," for example. What is it you don't understand in my words? > ---------------------------------------- I was questioning your statement, but trying not to be too direct about it ;-)) I followed this remark by pointing out that there was a difference between 'looking' and 'seeing'. That should have given you a clue ;-)) The path taught by the Buddha is a path of seeing clearly things (dhammas) as they truly are. Conventional analogies of looking in order to see better do not hold here. Dhammas can only be seen as dhammas by panna, so they cannot be looked at in order to be understood by panna! Attending to, say, what we take for visible object or 'the mind' or dosa will only result in paying attention to a concept of what those things are, and that concept is likely to be a flawed one (unless understanding is already highly developed). The stimulus for seeing dhammas clearly is: considering the teachings that have been heard, and relating what has been considered and understood to the present moment. If these conditions are fulfilled then moments of 'seeing clearly' (at a level appropriate to where we are in terms of insight development) will occur, but will do so at a time and with an object that is not of our choosing. Jon #65450 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:06 am Subject: Re: texts Vibhanga on seeing. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Sorry for the delay, I've been cleaning: Purged some old decrepit furniture. Missed Andy. Was shooting hoops at the gym with the kids. Missed youth (i.e. too stiff to move). At any rate... N: "I like this one: " The language is good: 'the illuminating', 'the revealing', 'the apprehending of it experientially' - phrases which describe an event of seeing. N: "paccakkhato: this the immediate realization of its characteristic (I prefer this to individual essence)..." Yes, 'individual essence' is too 'self'-ish somehow. N: A little further under mind-element and mind-consciousness element we find references to the cittas arising in a process." Here, I'll add it: "Therein what is mind-element? Immediately after the cessation of the eye-consciousness element there arises consciousness, mind, ideation, heart, lucence, mind, mind base, controlling faculty of mind, consciousness, the aggregate of consciousness; and, depending on the aforesaid mind element...also (at the time of) first advertance in all states there arises consciousness, mind, ideation, heart, lucence, mind, mind base, controlling faculty of the mind, consciousness, the aggregate of consciousness; and, depending on the aforesaid, mind element. This is called mind element... "Therein what is called mind-consciousness element? Immediately after the cessation of the eye-consciousness element that has arisen there arises mind element; immediately after cessation of the mind element that has arisen there arises consciousness, mind, ideation...Depending on mind and on ideational (objects) there arises consciousness, mind, ideation, heart, lucence, mind, mind base, controlling faculty of mind, consciousness, the aggregate of consciousness; and, depending on the aforesaid, mind-consciousness element. This is called mind-consciousness element." N: "Do you have the Dispeller of Delusion, its co, I, p. 96, where all this is further elaborated on." No, not yet. Some day soon... With loving kindness, Scott. #65451 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] No Self, No Tathagata, No Anyone (was Re: Stephen Batchelor and Bu... nilovg Hi Jon (and Howard), thank you, Jon. I find this really good: at a time and with an object that is not of our choosing.This makes much sense to me, good for thinking over. At a time: who knows, it may be a next life, but this does not matter. Slowly we move to that moment. We cannot choose the object, it may even be lobha. It arises already after seeing now but we do not know it. It is worthy to be an object of mindfulness as you would say. It should not be neglected as object of mindfulness and that is the beginning of right effort of the eightfold Path. Actually, at the moment of right mindfulness and right understanding there are the four right efforts included, also the effort to avoid akusala. Nina. Op 19-nov-2006, om 14:46 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > The stimulus for seeing dhammas clearly is: considering the teachings > that have been heard, and relating what has been considered and > understood to the present moment. If these conditions are fulfilled > then moments of 'seeing clearly' (at a level appropriate to where > we are > in terms of insight development) will occur, but will do so at a time > and with an object that is not of our choosing. #65452 From: melek cilingir Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:48 pm Subject: hello from a new member melekcilingir dear dhamma friends, i am very happy to say hello to you all as a new member on this list. i am melek from turkey, practicing vipassana meditation taught by goenka for about 3 years. i hope this forum will help me to develop my understanding of dhamma. much metta melek #65453 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:54 pm Subject: Re: med 1/5 was Re: [dsg] ADL 119, nimitta. lbidd2 Hi Howard, H: "The only really odd thing about this piece is the "Five Tathagata" terminology!" L: I believe this has to do with the 5 khandhas from the enlightened point of view in "mind-only" mode, but I'm not sure. Plamen might know something about this. Larry #65454 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:37 pm Subject: Re: hello from a new member scottduncan2 Dear Melek, M: "...i hope this forum will help me to develop my understanding of dhamma." Undoubtedly. Scott. #65455 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:18 pm Subject: Nibbana = Nirvana = Stilled State ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: Regarding the much touted so-called misnomer 'Self-Realization': 1: There is no self to realize ... !!! Comic yet true... hihi ;-) However: 2: There is realization (making real)… We call it Nibbana.. There eternal after effects are: a: Absolute Freedom… b: Supreme Peace… c: Sublime Bliss !!! Regarding this Stilled State: The Quenched Dimension: Peaceful, smokeless, wishless, tamed, and harmless, unobstructed both in front and behind, untroubled, unconcerned with both past and future, clean, aloof, imperturbable, beyond wavering & doubt, confident, directly knowing, calmed & freed, the Arahat being enters the final state: The cooling of all craving, The stilling of all construction, The releasing of all the clinging, The relinquishing of all acquisition, Detachment, disillusion, ceasing, Formless, senseless & deathless, Silent, free, blissful, pure peace, Nibbaana... Yeah!!! More on Nibbana = Nirvana: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_Deathless_Dimension.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_2_Nibbanas.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/What_is_Nibbana.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_Deathless.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Beyond_Release.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Final_Destination.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_Uncreated.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/climax_of_calm.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_Proximate_Cause.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #65456 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:03 pm Subject: The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana nidive Hi All, I thought this makes for good reading. The ending of all experience is not said to be annihilationism for one who has rightly comprehended the Dhamma and Dependent Origination. ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/The_2_Nibbanas.htm Friends: The 2 dimensions of Nirvana: There is Nibbana here & now in this very life: We call it 'sa-upadi-sesa-nibbana' i.e. Nibbana with the substrates of becoming, still remaining: Then there is final Nibbana, with no substrates of being nor becoming left: an-upadi-sesa-nibbana: Buddha explained it thus: The 2 aspects of Nibbana: 'This was said by the Blessed One: "Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left & the Nibbana-element with no remains left. "What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahat, one whose mental fermentations is eliminated, who have fulfilled the Noble life, who has done all what was to be done, who has laid down the burden, attained the goal, who has destroyed the bondages of being, who is completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense abilities remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable, and feels both pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, aversion, and confusion in him, that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left. "Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue remaining? Here a bhikkhu is an arahat, one whose mental fermentations is eliminated, who have fulfilled the Noble life, who has done all what was to be done, who has laid down the burden, attained the goal, who has destroyed the bondages of being, who is completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will grow cool right there & cease. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left. "These, bhikkhus, are the two Dimensions of Nibbana." These two Nibbana-elements were thus made known by the Seeing One, confident & detached: The first is the element with substrates of being remaining, realized here and now, but with re-becoming destroyed. The other, having no residue left for the future, is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease. Having understood this unconstructed state, released in mind, with the cord to becoming eliminated, They attain to the sublime essence of all states. Delighting in the ceasing & calming of craving, those steady ones have left all being & becoming.' Source; Thus Was it Said: Itivuttaka II.17; Iti 38 ------------------------------------------------------------------ Regards, Swee Boon #65457 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:14 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 585 - The Stages of Insight(g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd When the characteristic of nåma and the characteristic of rúpa can be distinguished from each other, nåma and rúpa can be seen more clearly as conditioned realities. Seeing arises, no matter we like it or not, because there are conditions for its arising. Visible object conditions seeing by being its object. If there were no object, seeing could not arise. Seeing is also conditioned by eyesense which is its physical base, a kind of rúpa produced by kamma. If kamma does not produce eyesense there cannot be seeing. Seeing is vipåkacitta, the result of kamma. There is seeing of pleasant objects and of unpleasant objects and nobody can cause the experience of objects to be pleasant. Contact, phassa, is another condition for seeing. Contact is a cetasika which arises with each citta and it “contacts” the object so that citta can experience it. If there were no contact there could not be seeing. There is no self who sees and can control the seeing; it is only a conditioned nåma which arises for a moment and then falls away. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65458 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] hello from a new member sarahprocter... Dear Melek, Thank you for introducing yourself - you're the first member from Turkey that I recall. Thank you for mentioning that. Do you live in Istambul? Many other members here have also followed courses by Goenka, so they will know what you are talking about. As Scott said, undoubtedly you may develop your understanding of dhamma here. Please start any discussions by asking questions/giving comments anytime. Also, join in any current threads and ask anyone for clarifications. A big issue for those that have studied with Goenka is usually that concerning feelings and sensations. You may like to look under these subject headings or any others in 'Useful Posts' in the files section of DSG. There's also a simple Pali glossary there. I'll look forward to any future discussion with you. Metta, Sarah --- melek cilingir wrote: > dear dhamma friends, > > i am very happy to say hello to you all as a new member on this list. > > i am melek from turkey, practicing vipassana meditation taught by goenka > for about 3 years. i hope this forum will help me to develop my > understanding of dhamma. #65459 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Atthasalini, French. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Sebastien, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sébastien, > > ---------- > > N: You had: Comment la conscience (c'est à dire le mental) est-elle > > capable de produire une > > telle variété ou diversité d'actions ? > > .. telle variété d'effects par ses actions. > > What about this? > ---------- > S: It makes sense...so the "effects" you are talking about are the > product of > "actions" right ? (want to be sure). > ----- > N: Yes, I think so. Better would be to compare the Pali, but this is > not easy to find the text. > ------- .... Sarah: English transl (PTS): "By this capacity to produce a diversity of effects (in destiny) in a manner detailed above is the diversity of the mind to be understood. For all variations are done by the mind only." Pali: "evam imaaya kara.nacittataaya pi cittassa cittataa veditabbaa. Sabbaani pi hi etaani vicittaani citten' eva kataani." .... > S: What about the meaning of "specific or generic" ? Is this related > to "artistic > art" opposed to "know-how art" like cooking, growing vegetables and > so on ? > ------ > N: I think that the meaning is that all kinds are included. Again, I > would like to see the Pali. > --------- ... Sarah: English:"Thus all classes of arts in the world, specific or generic, are achieved by the mind." Pali (I think, but also difficult for me to find the right lines): "Lokasmi.m hi cittakammato uttari.m a~n~na.m citta.m naama natthi." Sarah: I take the 'specific or generic' to be referring to the kinds of art work mentioned a few lines above, i.e. whether it's the 'sketching the outline, putting on the paint, touching up, and embellishing' All kinds of art and processes in its completion. .... > S: I got difficulties also with "Nay, it is even more artistic than > the art itself, > because the latter cannot execute every design perfectly" as an art > cannot > execute anything. Or is it that every piece of art can't be perfect > whereas > masterpieces are ? > ------ > N: The art is compared to what the mind can achieve. That is far more > than what painters can do, even when the make a masterpiece, it can > still not be compared to what citta can do. Citta can even experience > nibbaana. > I agree, the way the text is translated into English is not easy to > understand. > *** .... S: I think perhaps it refers to both the intricacy of both the artist's mind and also the finished work (the masterpiece), completed by the mind. I really admire you for your task, Sebastien, especially as you have to translate some suttas and difficult texts such as the Atthasalini in the process! French speakers have had very limited resources indeed. Metta, Sarah ====== #65460 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:23 pm Subject: Getting Lost in Thought? (was:ADL 119, nimitta) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Nina, Larry, Jon, Phil, Han, Matt, Sukin & all, I've also been following all your discussions with interest. Howard: >I distinguish between thinking occurring and getting lost in > thought. > Thinking is normal, legitimate operation. Getting lost in thought is the > result of weak mindfulness and of active craving and aversion.< .... S: I agree with this comment. Someone without craving or aversion would not get 'lost in thought'. However, I think the point being made is that sati has to 'follow' what appears, not make something different happen. This is because this moment is conditioned already and can never be changed to anything else. When satipatthana hasn't been developed, we're inclined to keep thinking about having sati, thinking about not getting lost in thought or thinking about stamping out akusala. However, as I see it, when satipatthana arises, the sati is just aware of what appears, what has just arisen, by conditions already. I've been reminded of this rather a lot recently while I'm sick and in pain and able to do very little. I have short spells of rest, often with wild dreams (most unusual for me) and crave a bed of nails to lie on for the nerve pain in my back:-)). But the pain, the wild thinking, the anxiety, the seeing, the hearing which also arise as usual, are just different conditioned elements. We may think of different ways we can cope or what else can be done to have more sati, but the most important thing is the development of understanding no matter what is arising at this moment, no matter what story we have about the current situation. I heard a friend on a tape, (Vince), talking about 'emergency' situations when one is particularly lost in thought or strong kilesa are arising. But even at such 'emergency' times, if we keep on thinking about how to cope with the defilements instead of being aware, we continue to be lost in the 'future' (or 'past'), instead of understanding the present moment. It's as if we keep on postponing the understanding, instead of knowing what appears now. And what appears now will never come back, nothing will be left of it at all at the next moment. We're bound to all have strong attachment accumulated which wants life to be a particular way and wonder how it can be managed(such as not lost in thought, not carried away by the pain, not alone or whatever), but this is not the path of detachment taught by the Buddha. When we appreciate that seeing or hearing are just elements (dhatus), wherever we are, whatever condition we may be in, the appreciation can lead to right awareness and right understanding immediately. By 'Look, Look!', I appreciate that you (Howard) are reminding us that it's not a matter of clinging to particular words or verbal teachings, but it's a question of immediately developing awareness. I think this is good. I'd just go further and suggest that we can see the difference between a)right awareness and b)an intention or effort which tries to have it -- whether by staring at visible object or setting up other conditions in a contrived way. As I see it, these are examples of silabbataparamasa (wrong practice) with an idea of controlling what appears. Such kinds of wrong practice make life difficult and waste time, because they are trying to do the impossible and are not the understanding with detachment of present dhammas including one's present accumulations. Rather, one is trying to be a different person without strong dosa, not lost in thought or with more wisdom, for example. When we appreciate that no one can make sati or other kusala dhammas arise when it's not the right time, it's like a kind of relief, the lifting of the burden. It doesn't matter if one is sick or lost in thought or whatever dhammas are arising. One doesn't have to look for a particular object, a particular time or place and so one is not so ensnared by attachment. The teachings after all really do bring detachment from clinging by the development of all kinds of kusala, by minding less and less about one's kilesa or whatever dhamma is appearing. Of course, it's a very gradual path as we all know. I think it also helps a lot to appreciate that the present dhammas - whether seeing, hearing, thinking or anything else - are so very brief and impermanent. Such reflection can be a condition for right consideration, but not by trying to make it happen. It has to be very natural all the way. As Nina mentioned (from her discussion with Lodewijk), people are concerned about whether there is enough sati or what sati of satipatthana really is, but actually it's there already when there is right understanding of dhammas appearing. It arises very naturally when there's even just a little understanding now of seeing or visible object, that which is seen at this moment. And this is true for everyone, anytime, whether old or young, sick or healthy, here or there. And again, as you (Howard) reminded us, in the Rohitassa Sutta, AN, 4s, we are reminded that 'the world's end' is by understanding the namas and rupas which appear now, in 'this world'. I would add, 'whatever they may be': ***** >'But, your reverence, I declare not that there is any making an end of ill without reaching world's end. Nay, your reverence, in this very fathom-long body, along with its perceptions and thoughts, I proclaim the world to be, likewise the origin of the world and the making of the world to end, likewise the practice going to the ending of the world. Not to be reached by going is world's end. Yet there is no release for man from ill. Unless he reach world's end -Then let a man Become world-knower, wise, world-ender, Let him be one who lives the holy life. Knowing the world's end by becoming calmed. He longs not for this world or another'< ***** I'll look forward to further discussions. Metta, Sarah ======= #65461 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling ken_aitch Hi Howard, ------------ Matt: > > They do not steal an item that they find attractive because they know that there is no item; there are only moments of visible object, sound and touch etc. They know that they cannot own a moment of seeing or any other dhamma moment that does not stay. They do not lie or kill because there is no one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing. > > Howard: > Pardon me, Matt, but if that were so, I'd sooner be a good worldling than a sotapanna! ------------------- I don't know if Matt is going to ask you to explain that comment, but I'm sure a lot of us are wondering what it means. I doubt there was a typo involved, but your comment would make more sense to me if it read, "If that were NOT so, I'd sooner be a good worldling than a sotapanna." If the Buddha was wrong and there really were living beings then I would rather be a good worldling than a sotapanna. In those circumstances I would sometimes kill to protect innocent living beings, and I would sometimes steal to give to poor living beings. There are a lot of would-be good worldlings going round and round in the cycle of birth and death. That is because there are really no living beings, and it is wrong of us to believe there are. Ken H #65462 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:10 am Subject: Texts Vibhanga, on seeing nilovg Dear Scott, do not feel obliged to answer mails, I understand that you do not always have time or are in the mood of posting. I type only part of the Dispeller of Delusion text: "...Depending on mind and on ideational (objects) there arises consciousness, mind, ideation, heart, lucence, mind, mind base, controlling faculty of mind, consciousness, the aggregate of consciousness; and, depending on the aforesaid, mind-consciousness element. This is called mind-consciousness element." -------- N: Dispeller of Delusion: (p. 96): A footnote states here: The point of this discussion is to dissociate advertance from impulsion and associate it with life-continuum because it is one of the four conditions of eye-, etc. consciousness.> N: One of these four is the preceding citta, in the case of eye- consciousness the eye-door adverting consciousness, and in the case of the cittas arising in a mind-door process, the mind-door adverting- consciousness. The mind-door itself is the preceding bhavangacitta. In the Vibhanga text, some synonyms of citta are given: heart, hadaya, and lucence, pandara that is also a synonym of citta. Nina. #65463 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Getting Lost in Thought? (was:ADL 119, nimitta) nilovg Hi Sarah, This is very true. No one can make sati arise, but, so long as we are not sotaapanna, we can at times do some surreptitious measuring of sati: how much sati is there? It helps to know when we are doing so. Lost in thoughts, Kh Sujin would say: most important to realize that all such moments are dhammas, that is: conditioned dhammas. If we say: O, no, not this dhamma, it is wrong. But at times we are likely to do so, and there is some selecting that may hardly by noticeable. Everyone should find this out for himself. Pa~n~naa should realize all such moments, all moments of wrong practice. Nina. Op 20-nov-2006, om 8:23 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > When we appreciate that no one can make sati or other kusala > dhammas arise > when it's not the right time, it's like a kind of relief, the > lifting of > the burden. It doesn't matter if one is sick or lost in thought or > whatever dhammas are arising. One doesn't have to look for a > particular > object, a particular time or place and so one is not so ensnared by > attachment. The teachings after all really do bring detachment from > clinging by the development of all kinds of kusala, by minding less > and > less about one's kilesa or whatever dhamma is appearing. Of course, > it's a > very gradual path as we all know. #65464 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:20 am Subject: Atthasalini, French. nilovg Dear Sarah, how good you could find the Pali texts, how did you manage? ------ Sarah: English transl (PTS): "By this capacity to produce a diversity of effects (in destiny) in a manner detailed above is the diversity of the mind to be understood. For all variations are done by the mind only." Pali: "evam imaaya kara.nacittataaya pi cittassa cittataa veditabbaa. Sabbaani pi hi etaani vicittaani citten' eva kataani." .... N: effects in destiny could refer to rebirth in the different planes of existence, thus, the results of kamma. -------- ... Sarah: English:"Thus all classes of arts in the world, specific or generic, are achieved by the mind." Pali (I think, but also difficult for me to find the right lines): "Lokasmi.m hi cittakammato uttari.m a~n~na.m citta.m naama natthi." Sarah: I take the 'specific or generic' to be referring to the kinds of art work mentioned a few lines above, i.e. whether it's the 'sketching the outline, putting on the paint, touching up, and embellishing' All kinds of art and processes in its completion. ------- N: That seems right to me. -------- > ------ > N: The art is compared to what the mind can achieve. That is far more > than what painters can do, even when the make a masterpiece, it can > still not be compared to what citta can do. Citta can even experience > nibbaana. > *** .... S: I think perhaps it refers to both the intricacy of both the artist's mind and also the finished work (the masterpiece), completed by the mind. ------ N: I think it refers to what citta can achieve, I think that is the point of this whole simile. When we look at the words: the mind is even more artistic... Thus, apart from the artistic work achieved by the mind, citta can achieve far more. ------- Nina. #65465 From: melek cilingir Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] hello from a new member melekcilingir dear sarah, thank you for your kind letter. i have visited the file section of the list, found many useful files including pali glossary. but i am having difficulties with reaching the useful files. i tried to read useful files nov. 2006 a few times. but as soon as i try to search something, i am off from all my active yahoo windows. do you have any suggestion how to get them? yes i live in istanbul warm regards from there melek ----- Original Message ---- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 8:21:35 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] hello from a new member Dear Melek, Thank you for introducing yourself - you're the first member from Turkey that I recall. Thank you for mentioning that. Do you live in Istambul? #65466 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:07 am Subject: phil's not getting through sarahprocter... Phil asked me to f/w the following note. For some reason, 3 or 4 messages he's written (including some 3 days ago) haven't reached the list and he hasn't got a copy. If anyone else has had a problem, pls let Jon or I know off-list and make copies.....Sarah ============= Hi again Posted a test about an hour again and no show. I'll look into it in a couple of days. In the meantime, could you post this? "Hi Matt and all - sorry, for some reason my posts aren't getting through. I'll get back to you when I get it worked out." (Might not be for awhile - blessing in disguise maybe - you know how I'm always struggling to cut my internet time.)" Phil #65467 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:21 am Subject: mindfulness of akusala. nilovg Dear friends, I quote from Kh sujin's Survey: ****** Nina. #65468 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:31 am Subject: Atthasalini: the painter of pictures. nilovg Dear Sarah and Sébastien, In Kh. Sujin's book Survey I found more texts on the painting of pictures, this may clarify some ideas. By the way, Sébastien, we are going to send you this book, it may be of interest to you. The quote starts with the Leash sutta: <“Wherefore, monks, again and again must one regard one’s own citta thus: ‘For a long, long time this citta has been tainted by lust, by hatred, by illusion.’ By a tainted citta, monks, beings are tainted. By purity of citta beings are made pure. Monks, have you ever seen a picture which they call a show-piece? 9” “Yes, lord.” “Well, monks, this so-called show-piece is thought out by citta. Wherefore, monks, citta is even more diverse than that show-piece. Wherefore, monks, again and again must one regard one’s own citta thus: ‘For a long, long time this citta has been tainted by lust, by hatred, by illusion.’ By a tainted citta, monks, beings are tainted. By purity of citta beings are made pure. Monks, I see not any single group so diverse as the creatures of the animal world. Those creatures of the animal world, monks, have their origin in citta 10). Wherefore, monks, citta is even more variegated than those creatures of the animal world. Wherefore, monks, a monk must again and again thus regard his own citta: ‘For a long time this citta has been tainted by lust, by hatred, by ignorance.’ By a tainted citta, monks, beings are tainted. By purity of citta beings are made pure. Just as if, monks, a dyer or a painter, if he has dye or lac or turmeric, indigo or madder, and a well-planed board, or wall or strip of cloth, can fashion the likeness of a woman or of a man complete in all its parts, even so, monks, the untaught many folk creates and recreates its body, feeelings, perception, activities, consciousness. As to that, what do you think, monks? Is body permanent or impermanent?” “Impermanent, lord.” “And so it is with feelings, perceptions, the activities, consciousness. Wherefore, monks, so seeing... a monk knows: ’For life in these conditions there is no hereafter.’ “ A painter depends on paints of various colours so that different pictures can be made. At this moment the citta of each one of us is like a painter, it creates the khandhas of rúpa, feeling, perception, activities and consciousness which will arise in the future. We all are different, we have different appearances, and this is due to different kammas which have been performed a long time ago. The citta which performs varied actions is the condition for diverse effects in the future. There will be diverse effects by way of place of birth, sex, outward appearance, possessions, honour, wellbeing, pain, praise and blame. We should be aware of the characteristic of the citta which is appearing now, which is “painting” or creating all the realities which will arise in the future. If we are not aware of its characteristic we shall not understand the variegated nature of citta which can cause so many different effects. Cittas arise and fall away now, succeeding one another very rapidly. There is citta which sees visible object through the eyes, citta which hears sound through the ears, and, even though we may be sitting still, there is citta which travels very far while thinking. We may think of where we shall go on a journey, or we may think of all the diverse matters we are going to achieve. The painter takes his picture for something important, and evenso the citta of the ordinary person, who is not an ariyan, takes the sense objects which are only rúpas for beings, people or self, for a thing which exists, and he will continue to do so in each following life. So long as one does not know yet as they are the characteristics of the five khandhas, realities which arise and fall away, one will take them for something, for self. -------- footnote 10: Being born as an animal is the result of kamma. Citta is the source of good and bad actions which are performed and which will bring different results. _________ Nina. #65469 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 11/20/06 1:19:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > "What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? > Here a bhikkhu is an arahat, > one whose mental fermentations is eliminated, > who have fulfilled the Noble life, > who has done all what was to be done, > who has laid down the burden, attained the goal, > who has destroyed the bondages of being, > who is completely released through final knowledge. > However, his five sense abilities remain unimpaired, > by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable, > and feels both pleasure and pain. > It is the extinction of attachment, aversion, and confusion in him, > that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left. > > "Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue remaining? > Here a bhikkhu is an arahat, > one whose mental fermentations is eliminated, > who have fulfilled the Noble life, > who has done all what was to be done, > who has laid down the burden, attained the goal, > who has destroyed the bondages of being, > who is completely released through final knowledge. > For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, > not being delighted in, will grow cool right there &cease. > That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left. > > "These, bhikkhus, are the two Dimensions of Nibbana." > > ====================== I agree that this is important material. I do *not* think that the meaning of it is clear, however. What the exact difference between the two stages of nibbana is is not, IMO, crystal clear. In the second paragraph, there is no mention of death, and the statement "For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will grow cool right there & cease" is cryptic, and does not unequivocally point to nothingness upon dying. There are alternative scenarios that could be painted for interpreting this. One is that that the first stage is an affective liberation only and that the second stage, resulting from the first, adds a cognitive liberation to the affective one, still in this very life, with all reification of dhammas ceasing for good. (I'm not asserting this is correct. I don't know in fact what the Buddha meant.) With metta, Howard #65470 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/20/06 2:47:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ------------ > Matt: >>They do not steal > an item that they find attractive because they know that there is no > item; there are only moments of visible object, sound and touch etc. > They know that they cannot own a moment of seeing or any other dhamma > moment that does not stay. They do not lie or kill because there is no > one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing. > >> > > Howard: > Pardon me, Matt, but if that were so, I'd sooner be a > good worldling than a sotapanna! > ------------------- > > I don't know if Matt is going to ask you to explain that comment, but > I'm sure a lot of us are wondering what it means. I doubt there was a > typo involved, but your comment would make more sense to me if it > read, "If that were NOT so, I'd sooner be a good worldling than a > sotapanna." > > If the Buddha was wrong and there really were living beings then I > would rather be a good worldling than a sotapanna. In those > circumstances I would sometimes kill to protect innocent living > beings, and I would sometimes steal to give to poor living beings. > > There are a lot of would-be good worldlings going round and round in > the cycle of birth and death. That is because there are really no > living beings, and it is wrong of us to believe there are. > > Ken H > > ========================= What I took exception to was taking the merely conventional existence of objects to be stolen or people to be killed as the moral reason for not stealing and not killing. Where it is said "They do not lie or kill because there is no one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing," it is the "because" I find repugnant! Lying and stealing and killing are WRONG and HURTFUL, and those facts constitute the proper moral reason for not engaging in these activities. As far as I'm concerned, cerebral nonexistence theorizing is no substitute for the moral sense, and basing one's morality on it is quite worrisome. Such "nonexistence" could be quite easily used for *excusing* immoral actions just as handily! (Since there is "no one to be killed," it doesn't matter if murder occurs.) Taking the notion of nonexistence to the nihilist extreme actually leads to amorallity and an excuse for immorality. BTW, I am amazed that you didn't understand my comment! If most people here also didn't understand it, then I may well be on the wrong list. With metta, Howard #65471 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:06 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe, 127 nilovg Dear friends, In the processes of citta the doorway (dvåra) is the means through which citta experiences its object. The physical base or vatthu is another factor which conditions citta by being its place of origin. In the planes of existence where there are nåma and rúpa, cittas do not arise independently of the body; a citta which arises has a rúpa as its place of origin. Cittas such as seeing, hearing or thinking could not arise without the body. Where does seeing arise? It needs the eye as its physical base. The eyesense, cakkhuppasåda-rúpa, the rúpa in the eye which can receive visible object, is the physical base for the citta which sees. The physical base or vatthu is not the same as dvåra or doorway. Although the five sense-organs can serve as dvåra and vatthu, dvåra and vatthu have different functions. For example, the cakkhuppasåda-rúpa functions as the eye-door (cakkhu- dvåra), the means through which cittas of the eye-door process experience an object, and also as the eye-base (cakkhu-vatthu), the physical base, the place of origin for seeing-consciousness. This rúpa is the base only for seeing-consciousness, not for the other cittas of that process. Thus, one and the same rúpa, the eyesense, serves as both doorway and base only for seeing-consciousness. Regarding the other cittas of the eye-door process, they have the eyesense as doorway, but they have a different base, as I shall explain later. It is the same in the case of the other pañca- viññå.nas (sense-cognitions). The vatthu for hearing-consciousness is the earsense (sotappasåda-rúpa), the vatthu for smelling- consciousness the smelling-sense (ghånappasåda-rúpa), the vatthu for tasting-consciousness the tasting-sense (jivhåppasåda-rúpa), the vatthu for body-consciousness the bodysense (kåyappasåda-rúpa).The bodysense can arise all over the body. Any part of the body which has sensitivity can be vatthu for the kåya-viññåùa. Thus, the five kinds of pasåda-rúpa, the sense-organs, are the vatthus of the pañca- viññå.nas. ****** Nina. #65472 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:09 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, Intro 3. nilovg Dear friends, Rúpa does not know or experience anything. What we call the body consists of different kinds of rúpa which arise and then fall away. Rúpas arise and fall away in groups or units of rúpas. Each group consists of several kinds of rúpas which always include four kinds of rúpas which are called the four Great Elements: the Element of Earth or solidity, appearing as hardness or softness, the Element of Water or cohesion, the Element of Fire or temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and the Element of Wind, appearing as motion or pressure. Solidity, temperature and motion or pressure are objects which can be experienced through the bodysense, whereas cohesion can only be experienced through the mind-door. Right understanding of nåma and rúpa can be developed by sati, awareness or mindfulness of the nåma and rúpa appearing at the present moment. There are many levels of sati; sati is heedful, non- forgetful, of what is wholesome. There is sati with generosity, dåna, with the observance of moral conduct, síla, with the development of tranquil meditation, samatha, and with the development of insight or right understanding, vipassanå. In the development of insight sati is mindful of whatever reality presents itself through one of the six doors. Ultimate realities, nåma and rúpa, not concepts, are the objects of mindfulness and right understanding. Paññå develops progressively in different stages of insight knowledge. When the first stage of insight knowledge arises there is no doubt about the difference between the characteristic of nåma and the characteristic of rúpa. At a higher stage of insight the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, their impermanence, can be penetrated. In the course of the development of insight a clearer understanding is gained of the three characteristics of conditioned realities, namely the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and non- self. Dukkha is translated as suffering or unsatisfactoriness. It is the unsatisfatoriness due to the impermanence of conditioned realities. What arises and falls away cannot be a true refuge, it is dukkha. We come across the terms “development of the eightfold Path”, “development of insight”, vipassanå, and “development of satipatthåna” or the four Applications of Mindfulness. All these terms pertain to the development of right understanding of mental phenomena, nåma, and physical phenomena, rúpa. By the teaching of the four Applications of Mindfulness the Buddha showed that all nåmas and rúpas which naturally appear in our daily life can be the objects of mindfulness and right understanding. ******** Nina. #65473 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana nilovg Hi Howard, Buddhist Dictionary: <1 the full extinction of defilements (kilesa parinibbaana), sa- upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (It.41), i.e.nibbaana with the groups of existence still remaining (upaadi). This takes place at the attainment of arahatship... 2. The full extinction of the groups of existence (khandha- parinibbaana) also called an-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (It 41).> This is without the khandhas remaining, at the death of an arahat. See: As it was said, Itivutthaka. Nina. Op 20-nov-2006, om 14:31 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "These, bhikkhus, are the two Dimensions of Nibbana." > > > > > ====================== > I agree that this is important material. I do *not* think that the > meaning of it is clear, however. What the exact difference between > the two stages > of nibbana is is not, IMO, crystal clear. #65474 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:06 am Subject: Re: About Bhikkhu Bodhi jwromeijn Hallo Howard, KenH, all In my mail about Bhikkhu Bodhi some says ago I said: "Is he (BB) changed? Yes: there is more compassion in his text" I not only meant his talk "Arahants, Buddhas, and Bodhisattvas", but also his essay 'A Look at the Kalama Sutta' from 1988 (www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_09.html), compared with his most recent 'Finding a place from which to start' (www.bodhimonastery.net/docs/novdec06bb.pdf) The passage that has been cited so often runs as follows: "Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing, nor upon tradition, nor upon rumor, nor upon scripture, nor upon surmise, nor upon axiom, nor upon specious reasoning, nor upon bias toward a notion pondered over, nor upon another's seeming ability, nor upon the consideration 'The monk is our teacher.' When you yourselves know: 'These things are bad, blamable, censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them... When you yourselves know: 'These things are good, blameless, praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them." In his 1988 essay BB's interpretation of the Kalama Sutta was as narrow as possible "The Buddha begins by assuring the Kalamas that under such circumstances it is proper for them to doubt, an assurance which encourages free inquiry. He next speaks the passage quoted above, advising the Kalamas to abandon those things they know for themselves to be bad and to undertake those things they know for themselves to be good. This advice can be dangerous if …" In the 2006 essay BB says: "Once one gains confidence in the Buddha by examining those aspects of his teaching that come into range of one's immediate experience, one can then place trust in him as one who speaks truthfully about things that lie beyond range of one's immediate experience. And on the basis of this trust one can devote oneself wholeheartedly to the practice of his teaching." My conclusion: interaction with Mahayanists can be good for our spiritual development, as Theravadins; it gives us more compassion, more understanding for other opinions, stresses more faith and less orthodoxy Metta Joop #65475 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/20/06 10:21:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Buddhist Dictionary: > <1 the full extinction of defilements (kilesa parinibbaana), sa- > upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (It.41), i.e.nibbaana with the groups of > existence still remaining (upaadi). This takes place at the > attainment of arahatship... > 2. The full extinction of the groups of existence (khandha- > parinibbaana) also called an-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (It 41).> > This is without the khandhas remaining, at the death of an arahat. > See: As it was said, Itivutthaka. > Nina. > ========================= I have two questions, Nina: 1) Where in the suttas did the Buddha go into this detail? 2) What basis is there for denying tyhat this is annihilationism? With metta, Howard #65476 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 11/20/06 1:19:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 11/20/06 10:21:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > >Hi Howard, > >Buddhist Dictionary: > ><1 the full extinction of defilements (kilesa parinibbaana), sa- > >upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (It.41), i.e.nibbaana with the groups of > >existence still remaining (upaadi). This takes place at the > >attainment of arahatship... > >2. The full extinction of the groups of existence (khandha- > >parinibbaana) also called an-upaadi-sesa-nibbaana (It 41).> > >This is without the khandhas remaining, at the death of an arahat. > >See: As it was said, Itivutthaka. > >Nina. > > > ========================= > I have two questions, Nina: > > 1) Where in the suttas did the Buddha go into this detail? > 2) What basis is there for denying that this is annihilationism? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > ========================== The sutta It.41 in full is as follows: - - - - - - - - - - This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Monks, there are these two forms of the Unbinding property. Which two? The Unbinding property with fuel remaining, & the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining.And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the pleasant & the unpleasant, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.1And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining."2These two proclaimed by the one with vision, Unbinding properties the one independent, the one who is Such:3 one property, here in this life with fuel remaining from the destruction of craving, the guide to becoming, and that with no fuel remaining, after this life, in which all becoming totally ceases. Those who know this state uncompounded, their minds released through the destruction of craving, the guide to becoming, they, attaining the Teaching's core, delighting in ending, have abandoned all becoming: they, the Such. - - - - - - - - - - - I point out the following: 1) "For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here" is not a clear statement of cessation of all phenomena. Moreover, there is evidence in the sutta itself that mind-door phenomena do not cease in all respects. The one item mentioned with regard to the first-stage of nibbana not mentioned with regard to the second is "His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the pleasant & the unpleasant, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain." Notice that it emphasizes his FIVE sense faculties still remaining, and NOT all six! While still alive, the arahant can not only cognize via the mind door, but can *also* see, hear, taste, smell, and feel. That is the distinction: The *five* senses are in effect before death, but not after. I do agree, however, that the mentioning of the five senses still being intact in the first stage does indeed suggest that the second stage pertains to the arahant beyond death. (I say "beyond" death rather than "after" death, for with the death of an arahant, to speak of time is questionable.) 2) The first stage of realization of nibbana involves the cessation of defilements, including the fetter of (i.e., inclination towards) becoming, i.e., rebirth as an individual. The second stage involves all that plus the fact that beyond that life, with the five sense media no longer existing, "all becoming totally ceases". I understand that to mean that there is no longer any realm of existence for the individual, the conventional person, partly because the five sense media are gone and partly because the uprooting of atta-sense makes any individuation no longer possible. Beyond the arahant's death, without any individuation remaining, there is no description possible for the passed-on arahant. Just as is the case with nibbana, the passed-on arahant is unconditioned, not able to be pointed to, and utterly beyond characterization, and that includes the characterization as existing or as not existing. With metta, Howard #65477 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana nilovg Hi Howard and Swee Boon, See what Swee Boon quoted: Source; Thus Was it Said: Itivuttaka II.17; Iti 38 Op 20-nov-2006, om 18:43 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > 1) Where in the suttas did the Buddha go into this detail? > ----------- > 2) What basis is there for denying that this is annihilationism? -------- N: Annihilationism is wrong view it has nothing to do with parinibbaana. Freedom from the cycle, the end of rebirth which means the end of dukkha is not annihilationism. It is a positive matter, not a negation. Cessation is the right word to use here. See below. Read the Prinibanasutta: Rebirth is produced by kamma, but he had no more kamma. -------------- Q. of King Milinda: #65478 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana nilovg Hi Howard, Nibbaana is the uncondiitoned element. But what follows makes no sense to me: the passed-on arahant is unconditioned, because he is no more, we cannot speak of him as unconditioned and permanent. You did not say permanent, I know, but what is unconditioned does not arise and fall away, it is permanent. I know some branches of Mahayana think differently, but to me this does not make sense. Nina. Op 20-nov-2006, om 20:32 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Just as is the case with nibbana, the passed-on arahant is > unconditioned, not able to be pointed to, and utterly beyond > characterization, and > that includes the characterization as existing or as not existing. #65479 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/20/06 3:20:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > Nibbaana is the uncondiitoned element. But what follows makes no > sense to me: the passed-on arahant is unconditioned, because he is no > more, we cannot speak of him as unconditioned and permanent. ----------------------------------- Howard: To say he exists makes no sense. To say he does not makes no sense. There is no individual nor is there nothing. There are no entities or existents to begin with, and even the living arahant cannot be said to truly exist. As I said beolw, neither tha characterization of exist nor not existing is correct. My main point here, however, is the incorrectness of saying "not existing". --------------------------------------- > You did > not say permanent, I know, but what is unconditioned does not arise > and fall away, it is permanent. -------------------------------------- Howard: No, not permanent. Just not impermanent. The unconditioned is beyond our mundane categories and beyond all opposites. ------------------------------------- > I know some branches of Mahayana think differently, but to me this > does not make sense. > Nina. > Op 20-nov-2006, om 20:32 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >Just as is the case with nibbana, the passed-on arahant is > >unconditioned, not able to be pointed to, and utterly beyond > >characterization, and > >that includes the characterization as existing or as not existing. > ====================== With metta, Howard P.S. You made no comment with regard to my point about the FIVE sense media, Nina. #65480 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Atthasalini, French. sbillard2000 Hi Sarah, Thank you very much for those text extracts, as it helps me to understand the whole picture. I appreciate to have several versions when it comes to canonical and pseudo canonical scriptures : as they are already translated from pali to english, I don't want to loose any meaning or make errors when translating from english to french. And thanks for the support too :) Sébastien Billard :: http://s.billard.free.fr > Sarah: English transl (PTS): "By this capacity to produce a diversity of > effects (in destiny) in a manner detailed above is the diversity of the > mind to be understood. For all variations are done by the mind only." #65481 From: "Sebastien Billard" Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Atthasalini: the painter of pictures. sbillard2000 Hi Nina, It is very kind of you, thank you :) But don't feel obliged though, if there is a version online I can work with it also, I would not want to abuse of your kindness. Sébastien Billard :: http://s.billard.free.fr >"Well, monks, this so-called show-piece is thought out by citta. >Wherefore, monks, citta is even more diverse than that show-piece. #65482 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:49 am Subject: Nibbana and the Absence of Objects Re: [dsg] The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina & all - A living arahant has no attachments and no craving for anything whatsoever. Such a being's regular mode of experience is a nondual experience of no-thing-ness free of both subject and object. For such a being it makes no difference in terms of desire whether experiential objects should arise or not. Utter freedom is already present. With the cessation of the five sense media upon the death of the arahant, the experience of absence becomes complete. The foregoing makes sense to me. It is "just fine" with me. What I don't find "just fine" is the craving I seem to see on the part of some Buddhists, usually Theravadins, not for arahanthood in the sense of absence of defilements, but in the sense of an utter nullity. Such a desire seems to be based on the assumption that being free of any and all attachment, craving, aversion, and ignorance, and clearly apprehending absence of self-existence is unsatisfactory in some inexplicable way. Actually, this allegedly "inadequate" freedom that is the living arahant's treasure is already enough to guarantee the experience of absence of subject and absence of separate objects reaching a culmination upon the death of the arahant. From my perspective, regardless of how many times I see a disclaimer, it seems to me that too many Theravadin Buddhists crave the attaining of a "nibbana" that is an utter and absolute zero, an eternal, thoroughgoing, not-at-all-middle-way, "absolute zero" that surpasses the greatest hopes of suicidal materialists. With metta, Howard #65483 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:53 pm Subject: Re: The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana nidive Hi Howard & Nina, > 1) "For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold > right here" is not a clear statement of cessation of all phenomena. > Moreover, there is evidence in the sutta itself that mind-door > phenomena do not cease in all respects. The one item mentioned with > regard to the first-stage of nibbana not mentioned with regard to > the second is "His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to > their being intact, he is cognizant of the pleasant & the > unpleasant, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain." Notice that it > emphasizes his FIVE sense faculties still remaining, and NOT all > six! I think the Buddha pointed out the five senses to distinguish that pain & pleasure are felt through the five senses only and not the intellect for a living arahant. Those pain and pleasuire are connected with old kamma. If you look under Release in MN 121, the Buddha says the six sensory spheres are dependent on this very body with life as their condition. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.121.than.html "He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming ... ignorance. And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure — superior & unsurpassed. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon #65484 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:05 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,115 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 115. When he is confused about the round of rebirths, instead of taking the round of rebirths as pictured thus: The endless chain of aggregates, Of elements, of bases too, That carries on unbrokenly Is what is called 'the round of births', he figures that it is a lasting being that goes from this world to another world, that comes from another world to this world. ******************** 115. sa.msaare vimuu.lho yo esa, ``khandhaana~nca pa.tipaa.ti, dhaatuaayatanaana ca. abbocchinna.m vattamaanaa, sa.msaaroti pavuccatii''ti.. -- eva.m va.n.nito sa.msaaro, ta.m eva.m aga.nhanto ``aya.m satto asmaa lokaa para.m loka.m gacchati, parasmaa lokaa ima.m loka.m aagacchatii''tiaadiini vikappeti. #65485 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling ken_aitch Hi Howard, ---------------- H: > What I took exception to was taking the merely conventional existence of objects to be stolen or people to be killed as the moral reason for not stealing and not killing. Where it is said "They do not lie or kill because there is no one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing," it is the "because" I find repugnant! --------------------- At the risk of being deliberately obtuse I will continue to argue the point. Right understanding is the highest moral good. Once it has arisen in its supramundane form there can never again be killing, lying or stealing. Therefore, no other cause of moral conduct can rival right understanding. ------------------------------- H: > Lying and stealing and killing are WRONG and HURTFUL, and those facts constitute the proper moral reason for not engaging in these activities. ------------------------------- Without right view, the "not engaging" will always be temporary. With right view, it becomes permanent. --------------------------------------------------- H: > As far as I'm concerned, cerebral nonexistence theorizing is no substitute for the moral sense, and basing one's morality on it is quite worrisome. --------------------------------------------------- Even at theoretical levels, right view is never akusala. ---------------------------------------------------------------- H: > Such "nonexistence" could be quite easily used for *excusing* immoral actions just as handily! (Since there is "no one to be killed," it doesn't matter if murder occurs.) Taking the notion of nonexistence to the nihilist extreme actually leads to amorallity and an excuse for immorality. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Here you are introducing an akusala view of non-existence. However, neither Matt nor I have been talking about that. I never thought for a moment that Matt wanted to kill lie and steal, and that it was only the absence of ultimately real victims that was holding him back. :-) I know you wouldn't suspect him of that either. That's why I was confused by your comment. -------------------------------------------- H: > BTW, I am amazed that you didn't understand my comment! If most people here also didn't understand it, then I may well be on the wrong list. --------------------------------------------- I couldn't understand your comment because I knew you wouldn't accuse anyone here of wanting to kill lie and steal (and being thwarted by anatta). Matt had written, "They do not lie or kill because there is no one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing." In other words, he made it clear that he was not talking about killing for pleasure. Sometimes people kill in self-defence or in the defence of others (fighting against Nazi Germany, for example). If there is no understanding of anatta it can sometimes be very hard to see where those people are going wrong. Ken H #65486 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:20 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, all - I wrote to Matt about the reasons he gave that sotapannas don't lie, steal, and kill. Ken was the only one who replied to me. Since then I've written Ken twice on this matter. I've noticed that other than for Ken, no one is discussing this issue. The silence on this matter concerns me. I worry about silence on matters of morality. It is important to me to see what perspectives you folks here on DSG have on this matter. It's very important to me. With metta, Howard #65487 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - Let me make it brief, Ken. Matt said that the reason sotapannas don't kill is that there are really no people existing to be killed. I consider that an absurdity, and a moral horror story. I don't want to know a person, ariyan or not, for whom that is the reason they don't kill. My God! I'm stunned that you cannot see the absurdity and moral perversity of this! With metta, Howard P.S. You say "At the risk of being deliberately obtuse". I HOPE you are deliberately being so. In a message dated 11/20/06 8:52:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ---------------- > H: > What I took exception to was taking the merely conventional > existence of objects to be stolen or people to be killed as the moral > reason for not stealing and not killing. Where it is said "They do not > lie or kill because there is no one to be protected and no one who > will gain by lying or killing," it is the "because" I find repugnant! > --------------------- > > At the risk of being deliberately obtuse I will continue to argue the > point. Right understanding is the highest moral good. Once it has > arisen in its supramundane form there can never again be killing, > lying or stealing. Therefore, no other cause of moral conduct can > rival right understanding. > > ------------------------------- > H: >Lying and stealing and killing are WRONG and HURTFUL, and those > facts constitute the proper moral reason for not engaging in these > activities. > ------------------------------- > > Without right view, the "not engaging" will always be temporary. With > right view, it becomes permanent. > > --------------------------------------------------- > H: >As far as I'm concerned, cerebral nonexistence theorizing > is no substitute for the moral sense, and basing one's morality on it > is quite worrisome. > --------------------------------------------------- > > Even at theoretical levels, right view is never akusala. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > H: >Such "nonexistence" could be quite easily used for *excusing* > immoral actions just as handily! (Since there is "no one to be > killed," it doesn't matter if murder occurs.) Taking the notion of > nonexistence to the nihilist extreme actually leads to amorallity and > an excuse for immorality. > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Here you are introducing an akusala view of non-existence. However, > neither Matt nor I have been talking about that. I never thought for a > moment that Matt wanted to kill lie and steal, and that it was only > the absence of ultimately real victims that was holding him back. :-) > I know you wouldn't suspect him of that either. That's why I was > confused by your comment. > > -------------------------------------------- > H: > BTW, I am amazed that you didn't understand my comment! > If most people here also didn't understand it, then I may well be on > the wrong list. > --------------------------------------------- > > I couldn't understand your comment because I knew you wouldn't accuse > anyone here of wanting to kill lie and steal (and being thwarted by > anatta). Matt had written, "They do not lie or kill because there is > no one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing." > In other words, he made it clear that he was not talking about killing > for pleasure. Sometimes people kill in self-defence or in the defence > of others (fighting against Nazi Germany, for example). If there is no > understanding of anatta it can sometimes be very hard to see where > those people are going wrong. > > Ken H > #65488 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 11/20/06 7:01:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > I think the Buddha pointed out the five senses to distinguish that > pain &pleasure are felt through the five senses only and not the > intellect for a living arahant. Those pain and pleasuire are connected > with old kamma. > ==================== This is a good point. Mental pain (dukkha) no longer arises in the arahant. That may well be the correct answer. With metta, Howard #65489 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:33 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling scottduncan2 Dear Howard, I've noticed something... H: "I've noticed that other than for Ken, no one is discussing this issue. The silence on this matter concerns me. I worry about silence on matters of morality. It is important to me to see what perspectives you folks here on DSG have on this matter. It's very important to me." ...but you may not be interested. Over the last couple of weeks your posts seem to reflect a certain amount of restiveness. Are you okay? Please forgive the personal comment. With loving kindness, Scott. #65490 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:25 pm Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling lbidd2 Hi Howard, H: "Hi, all - I wrote to Matt about the reasons he gave that sotapannas don't lie, steal, and kill. Ken was the only one who replied to me. Since then I've written Ken twice on this matter. I've noticed that other than for Ken, no one is discussing this issue. The silence on this matter concerns me. I worry about silence on matters of morality. It is important to me to see what perspectives you folks here on DSG have on this matter. It's very important to me." L: People don't lie, steal, and kill because of the compassion, conscience and abstinence cetasikas (right speech, right action, right livelihood). Is the sotapanna's motivation different? Larry #65491 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:35 pm Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 11/20/06 9:50:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > I've noticed something... > > H: "I've noticed that other than for Ken, no one is discussing this > issue. The silence on this matter concerns me. I worry about > silence on matters of morality. It is important to me to see what > perspectives you folks here on DSG have on this matter. It's very > important to me." > > ...but you may not be interested. Over the last couple of weeks your > posts seem to reflect a certain amount of restiveness. Are you okay? -------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! Yes, I am, quite. Thank you for displaying concern, seriously. :-) ------------------------------------------- > > Please forgive the personal comment. ----------------------------------------- Howard: There is never a need to forgive a kindness. :-) ---------------------------------------- > > With loving kindness, > > Scott. > > ==================== With metta, Howard #65492 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:39 pm Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/20/06 10:36:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > L: People don't lie, steal, and kill because of the compassion, > conscience and abstinence cetasikas (right speech, right action, right > livelihood). Is the sotapanna's motivation different? > ==================== I think it is not different. I think it exactly is due to compassion, conscience, and abstinance, and I approve your ordering as well. Thank you Larry! With metta, Howard #65493 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:40 pm Subject: Beyond Doubt ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: Beyond all Doubt, Perplexity & Confusion! The Ability of Faith ... The Ability of Energy ... The Ability of Awareness ... The Ability of Concentration ... The Ability of Understanding ... All these capabilities culminate in the Deathless Destination, which is their final goal, ground, home, and resulting effect... When having seen, known, understood, directly experienced, fully realized and touched this through wisdom, then one is quite beyond all doubt, uncertainty, perplexity and confusion! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book V [221] Section 48: On The Abilities. The Eastern Gatehouse: 44. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=948507 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #65494 From: "Leo" Date: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:03 pm Subject: Re: Questions leoaive To Leo: You said, I found the following: In Anggutarra Nikaya 8.51,(Refer also to The First Sangha Council-The Thera Mahakassapa has made the blessed Buddha's message to endure 500 years - from the Mahavamsa book) the Buddha warned that the true Dhamma would remain unadulterated for 500 years after his passing into Nibbána. Thereafter, it will become very difficult to distinguish the true teachings from the false. Why? Because although many of these later books contain a lot of Dhamma, some adhamma (i.e. what is contrary to the Dhamma) are added here and there. These alterations scattered throughout these texts are only noticeable if one is sharp and very well versed in the earliest suttas. Otherwise, one would find it very difficult to distinguish the later books from the earlier ones. It was on a website: http://geocities. com/allbuddhism/ Is this Theravadin or not? Why? It is because Buddha said that Dhamma will change, not because of my mind creation. He could see the evolution, having superpowers, I beleive you can see the future. I am just trying to understand what is Dhamma now. Defenetely it is not rock Buddhas and all that metal or rock of other kind of "new" art. If Sariputta was the best monk of that time, then He is like Buddha did not have that modern set up. But what is real ancient set up?.. I am trying to figure out. With Metta Leo #65495 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:15 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 586 - The Stages of Insight(h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd Each reality which arises is conditioned by different factors. The seventh book of the “Abhidhamma”, the “Book of Conditional Relations” (Paììhåna)(1) deals with twenty four different types of conditions (paccayas). When we study these we should keep in mind that they occur in daily life. When paññå has been developed more by being mindful of all kinds of realities appearing in daily life, the second stage of insight can be realized. This is Discerning the Conditions of Nåma and Rúpa( in Påli: paccaya-pariggaha-ñåùa). This is not theoretical understanding of conditions, it is not thinking of all the different conditioning factors for the arising of nåma and rúpa, but it is the direct understanding of nåma and rúpa as conditioned realities. Through direct understanding of the nåma or the rúpa which appears now we will come to understand what our life is and how it is conditioned. *** 1) Translated by Ven. U. Narada, P.T.S. 1969. See also his Guide to Conditional Relations, P.T.S. 1979. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65496 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:11 am Subject: Re: Nibbana and the Absence of Objects Re: [dsg] The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana nilovg Hi Howard, also in the Buddha's time some monks committed suicide for this false reason. You were wondering about the faculty of mind: suppose after passing away there was still a mind, only a mind, not the sense-faculties for the arahat, this cannot be correct. Then he would be like Mahaa- brahma in the arupa-brahma plane where there is no ruupa, only naama. Thus still like a god as we find in other religions. If five faculties are mentioned in your quote and that does not mean that after passing away the arahat is just without these five and still has a mind. In one passage one thing is emphasized, in another one (like Swee Boon's other quote, M.N.), something else like six sense spheres M.N. 121. This is a matter of emphasis. The five: no more clinging and ignorance on account of sense objects. If one believes in a luminous mind for the passed away arahat, there will be many contraditions: it could not arise and fall away, but, only nibbaana is an unconditioned reality. Citta can never be unconditioned, it has to arise and fall away. In order to understand nibbaana, we should first realize the truth of this fathomlong body. Otherwise we lose the way. Think of Malunkiyaputta: the Buddha proclaimed the four noble Truths. We have to understand dukkha now: seeing, visible object, they are impermanent and thus dukkha. Nina. Op 20-nov-2006, om 23:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > From my perspective, regardless of how many times I see a disclaimer, > it seems to me that too many Theravadin Buddhists crave the > attaining of a > "nibbana" that is an utter and absolute zero, an eternal, > thoroughgoing, > not-at-all-middle-way, "absolute zero" that surpasses the greatest > hopes of suicidal > materialists. #65497 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:26 am Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling nilovg Hi Howard and Larry, Larry, this is beautifully expressed in a few words. Also the sotaapanna thinks of fellow beings, has compassion and metta which have beings as subject. When we have metta, siila is also taken care of, and daana. We give other beings the opportunity to live free from harm and danger. The objects are the same for the worldling and for the sotaapanna but for the sotaapanna understanding has been developed. The understanding of kamma and vipaaka grows with each stage of insight. This helps enormously for our dealings with people. We do not blame others or situations for experiencing undesirable objects. Seeing and hearing are results of kamma and arise already, we do not create them. Seeing can be investigated as a conditioned nama, as a dhamma, until we see that whatever appears is dhamma. Howard, you think that sila is not so much a subject on dsg, or have I misunderstood you? As you remember I quoted from Kh Sujin's perfection of siila, that also laypeople should not neglect the five precepts. Sila is an important perfection supporting all the others and we need it to reach the further shore. A perfection: we do not expect any gain for ourselves. But this we really have to learn! We still like ourselves so much. Is there anything else on siila you would like to discuss, but I mean just the issue of siila. There is siila of abstaining and of observing, which includes helping, respect and all kinds of good deeds. Nina. Op 21-nov-2006, om 4:25 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > L: People don't lie, steal, and kill because of the compassion, > conscience and abstinence cetasikas (right speech, right action, right > livelihood). Is the sotapanna's motivation different? #65498 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Questions nilovg Dear Leo, dhamma is quite near. There are bodily phenomena and mental phenomena appearing right now, and you can investigate these. That is the way to begin to know the truth. You will not know the truth by speculating how long the teachings will last and who added something to the Tipitaka. Gradual Sayings (Book of the Fours, chapter V, §5, Rohitassa): ``But your reverence, I declare not that there is any making an end of ill (dukkha) without reaching the world's end. Nay, your reverence, in this very fathom-long body, along with its perceptions and thoughts, I proclaim the world to be, likewise the origin of the world and the making of the world to end, likewise the practice going to the ending of the world. Not to be reached by going is world's end. Yet there is no release for man from ill Unless he reach the world's end. Then let a man Become world-knower, wise, world-ender, Let him be one who lives the holy life. Knowing the world's end by becoming calmed He longs not for this world or another.'' The Buddha taught people about the ``world'' and the way to reach the end of the world, that is, the end of suffering, dukkha. The way to realize this is knowing the world, that is, knowing ``this very fathom-long body, along with its perceptions and thoughts'', knowing oneself. Op 21-nov-2006, om 8:03 heeft Leo het volgende geschreven: > I am just trying to understand what is Dhamma now. #65499 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:15 am Subject: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling scottduncan2 Dear Howard, I'm glad: Howard: "LOL! Yes, I am, quite. Thank you for displaying concern, seriously. :-" Although why I would, given that you have no ultimate reality and are merely a concept [;-)] is beyond me... Scott. #65500 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:25 am Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Howard (and Matt) upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, all - > > I wrote to Matt about the reasons he gave that sotapannas don't lie, > steal, and kill. Ken was the only one who replied to me. Since then I've > written Ken twice on this matter. I've noticed that other than for Ken, no one is > discussing this issue. I'm looking forward to Matt's reply to the point you have raised, which you explained further in your post #65470. I regard his explanation as a somewhat idiosyncratic one, but I'd like to see him elaborate on it before I join the discussion. Knowing Matt as I do, I doubt that he sees things as you take him to. > The silence on this matter concerns me. I worry about > silence on matters of morality. It is important to me to see what perspectives > you folks here on DSG have on this matter. It's very important to me. > Some of us take longer to get around to coming in on threads than do others ;-)) Jon #65501 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:25 am Subject: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling nidive Hi Nina, > The understanding of kamma and vipaaka grows with each stage of > insight. This helps enormously for our dealings with people. We do > not blame others or situations for experiencing undesirable objects. I think the main reason sotapannas cannot transgress the five precepts is because they have penetrated to the truth and reality of kamma and vipaaka. In fact, the main point of Dependent Origination is all about kamma and vipaaka. Because of this in depth understanding of kamma and vipaaka, sotapannas have a higher degree of compassion for living beings. They will not even kill a hornet bee or a fiery ant that gives them a sharp painful sting or bite. Regards, Swee Boon #65502 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana nidive Hi Howard, > > I think the Buddha pointed out the five senses to distinguish that > > pain &pleasure are felt through the five senses only and not the > > intellect for a living arahant. Those pain and pleasuire are > > connected with old kamma. > > > ==================== > This is a good point. Mental pain (dukkha) no longer arises in the > arahant. That may well be the correct answer. The Buddha taught not only the cessation of mental pain, but also the cessation of bodily pain. -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/index.html [Ven. Sariputta:] "Now what, friends, is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging- aggregates are stressful. ... "And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain. "And what is distress? Whatever is experienced as mental pain, mental discomfort, pain or discomfort born of mental contact, that is called distress. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon #65503 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:32 am Subject: Re: Nibbana and the Absence of Objects Re: [dsg] The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/21/06 6:22:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > also in the Buddha's time some monks committed suicide for this false > reason. > You were wondering about the faculty of mind: suppose after passing > away there was still a mind, only a mind, not the sense-faculties for > the arahat, this cannot be correct. Then he would be like Mahaa- > brahma in the arupa-brahma plane where there is no ruupa, only naama. > Thus still like a god as we find in other religions. > If five faculties are mentioned in your quote and that does not mean > that after passing away the arahat is just without these five and > still has a mind. In one passage one thing is emphasized, in another > one (like Swee Boon's other quote, M.N.), something else like six > sense spheres M.N. 121. This is a matter of emphasis. The five: no > more clinging and ignorance on account of sense objects. > If one believes in a luminous mind for the passed away arahat, there > will be many contraditions: it could not arise and fall away, but, > only nibbaana is an unconditioned reality. Citta can never be > unconditioned, it has to arise and fall away. > In order to understand nibbaana, we should first realize the truth of > this fathomlong body. Otherwise we lose the way. Think of > Malunkiyaputta: the Buddha proclaimed the four noble Truths. We have > to understand dukkha now: seeing, visible object, they are > impermanent and thus dukkha. > Nina. ==================== Basically you are right. To say that mind remains beyond the death of the arahant is off the mark. What there is is nibbana, and nibbana only. And even to say that is off the mark, because it has the ring of nibbana being an ordinary "thing" - an existent. Truly, there is nothing to say about the arahant beyond death, except negatives. Among those negatives I would include saying "It is not something" yet also "It is not nothing." With metta, Howard #65504 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:38 am Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/21/06 6:46:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and Larry, > Larry, this is beautifully expressed in a few words. > > Also the sotaapanna thinks of fellow beings, has compassion and metta > which have beings as subject. When we have metta, siila is also taken > care of, and daana. We give other beings the opportunity to live free > from harm and danger. > The objects are the same for the worldling and for the sotaapanna but > for the sotaapanna understanding has been developed. > The understanding of kamma and vipaaka grows with each stage of > insight. This helps enormously for our dealings with people. We do > not blame others or situations for experiencing undesirable objects. > Seeing and hearing are results of kamma and arise already, we do not > create them. Seeing can be investigated as a conditioned nama, as a > dhamma, until we see that whatever appears is dhamma. > Howard, you think that sila is not so much a subject on dsg, or have > I misunderstood you? As you remember I quoted from Kh Sujin's > perfection of siila, that also laypeople should not neglect the five > precepts. Sila is an important perfection supporting all the others > and we need it to reach the further shore. > A perfection: we do not expect any gain for ourselves. But this we > really have to learn! We still like ourselves so much. > Is there anything else on siila you would like to discuss, but I mean > just the issue of siila. There is siila of abstaining and of > observing, which includes helping, respect and all kinds of good deeds. > Nina. ===================== Nina, you write "Howard, you think that sila is not so much a subject on dsg, or have I misunderstood you?" I think there are people on DSG whose attachment to certain ideas pervert their ideas on sila (though not their natural inclination to kindness). I was eager to hear people speak out on this issue in order for me to see that what I was observing was a minority circumstance. With metta, Howard #65505 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:09 am Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling nilovg Hi Swee Boon, what a lovely post, thank you. Nina. Op 21-nov-2006, om 14:25 heeft nidive het volgende geschreven: > I think the main reason sotapannas cannot transgress the five precepts > is because they have penetrated to the truth and reality of kamma and > vipaaka. In fact, the main point of Dependent Origination is all about > kamma and vipaaka. Because of this in depth understanding of kamma and > vipaaka, sotapannas have a higher degree of compassion for living > beings. #65506 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:22 am Subject: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha nidive Hi All, A less popularly known definition of the Noble Truth of Dukkha is the six internal sense bases. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca1/index.html "And what is the noble truth of dukkha? 'The six internal sense media, ' should be the reply. Which six? The medium of the eye... the ear... the nose... the tongue... the body... the intellect. This is called the noble truth of dukkha." — SN 56.14 --------------------------------------------------------------------- And the cessation of the six internal sense bases is nibbana. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.009.than.html "And what are the six sense media? What is the origination of the six sense media? What is the cessation of the six sense media? What is the way of practice leading to the cessation of the six sense media? "There are these six sense media: the eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium: These are called the six sense media. "From the origination of name-&-form comes the origination of the six sense media. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. And the way of practice leading to the cessation of the six sense media is just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The six internal sense bases are the means whereby one engages in 'experiencing'. The ceasing without remainder of all that 'experiencing' is nibbana for one who has rightly comprehended dukkha. But it can be annihilationism for some others. Regards, Swee Boon #65507 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:14 am Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Matt & all) - In a message dated 11/21/06 8:32:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard (and Matt) > > upasaka@... wrote: > >Hi, all - > > > > I wrote to Matt about the reasons he gave that sotapannas don't lie, > >steal, and kill. Ken was the only one who replied to me. Since then I've > >written Ken twice on this matter. I've noticed that other than for Ken, no > one is > >discussing this issue. > > I'm looking forward to Matt's reply to the point you have raised, which > you explained further in your post #65470. I regard his explanation as > a somewhat idiosyncratic one, but I'd like to see him elaborate on it > before I join the discussion. Knowing Matt as I do, I doubt that he > sees things as you take him to. > > >The silence on this matter concerns me. I worry about > >silence on matters of morality. It is important to me to see what > perspectives > >you folks here on DSG have on this matter. It's very important to me. > > > > Some of us take longer to get around to coming in on threads than do > others ;-)) > > Jon > ==================== Thanks, Jon! :-) BTW, I don't suspect anything lacking with regard to Matt's personal moral sense and goodness. I consider his position, as stated, to be one that is ethically far off the mark, however, and I worry about taking belief systems to a point where they lead to "odd" conclusions in the moral realm. When that happens to me - and it does - I treat it as a signal to reconsider. With metta, Howard #65508 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:32 am Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling nilovg Hi Howard, I would just like to discuss the meaning of sila and all its implications for daily life. I think we should more and more understand seeing and hearing at this moment, so that we come to understand what vipaaka really is: not caused by someone else. To understand how to cope with all the contrarious events of life, including what others say or do, and that is by right understanding of paramattha dhammas. This is what I would like to discuss with you and others, nothing else. Nina. Op 21-nov-2006, om 14:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I think there are people on DSG whose > attachment to certain ideas pervert their ideas on sila (though not > their > natural inclination to kindness). I was eager to hear people speak > out on this issue > in order for me to see that what I was observing was a minority > circumstance. #65509 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:58 am Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/21/06 9:41:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I would just like to discuss the meaning of sila and all its > implications for daily life. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Certainly an important subject! The implications are significant and far reaching. ------------------------------------ I think we should more and more > > understand seeing and hearing at this moment, so that we come to > understand what vipaaka really is: not caused by someone else. > ------------------------------------ Howard: I don't think that is entirely so. The fruition of kamma is dependent on multiple conditions. We interact with others all the time, and among the supportive conditions that lead to kammic fruition are those that find their origin with others. We do *not* exist in worlds entirely of our own making. Obviously, though, the kamma that conditions eventual vipaka is our own, not another's. -------------------------------------- To > > understand how to cope with all the contrarious events of life, > including what others say or do, and that is by right understanding > of paramattha dhammas. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, that and the relations holding among those dhammas, and especially including sankharic fabrication. One will not see the forest only by looking at the trees, though without the trees there is no forest, and without cognizing the pattern of the tree cluster there is no forest. And, of course, forests are far less important than people. My tree-and-forest talk is really just metaphor for people-and-khandha talk. There is no issue of sila without people, and, more generally, without sentient beings, empty as they are. -------------------------------------- This is what I would like to discuss with you > > and others, nothing else. --------------------------------------- Howard: Well, of course, Nina, you are free to restrict what you will discuss in any way you choose. ---------------------------------------- > Nina. =================== With metta, Howard #65510 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop > Hallo Jon Jon: " The question I was addressing is whether the teaching on DO as given by the Buddha is limited to a single lifetime, or whether it was given as applying to life in samsara generally (i.e., beyond the span of a single lifetime). If one says that it was given as applying only to a single lifetime, then I cannot see what the profound significance of it would be (especially in instance of the reverse application mentioned in my earlier post) or what it adds to the rest of the teachings." Joop: Months ago we also had a discussion about this theme. I simply repeat: DO can be applied in two ways: in the single lifetime and in the three lifetime way. I prefer the single lifetime application (because I don't believe in rebirth) and I don't understand why that cannot have profound significance and why the reverse application is not relevant in the single lifetime application. Joop (earlier) > But more central: I think these explanations are given in commentaries, not in the Suttas. Jon: "There are many descriptions of sudden awakening in the Thera- Theri Gatha, which is part of the Kuddhaka Nikaya." Joop: You really cannot read. It was me that started to state that there are many examples of sudden awakening described in the Suttas. Then is was you stating "but all have a rational explanation in terms of insight knowledge gained in previous lifetimes", about which I said: "I think these explanations are given in commentaries, not in the Suttas." So my question, again, is: are there many descriptions of sudden awakening of which - IN THE SUTTAS - is given an explanation in terms of previous lifetimes ??? Jon: "Firstly, as regards your comment about Sariputta, to my understanding it would not be possible for any person to acquire knowledge of the conditioned nature of dhammas other than from hearing the teachings of a Buddha." Joop: To me reading the Suttas can have the same effect as "hearing the teachings of a Buddha" or do you think that literally hearing - by ones physical ears - of His voice has more impact? Jon: "Secondly, as regards your question, I can only say that it's obviously not enough for the vast majority of people. What's your view on this question?" Joop: I'm not sure, I think that the criteria for getting streamenterer are made (by Theravada monks for reasons I don't understand) higher and higher in the course of the centuries. I think with the level of insight you and I have, we were a streamenterer in the time of the Buddha. Jon: "Discursive thinking can be kusala or akusala; Joop: I don't agree: the results of it can be used kusala or akusala, thinking itself is innocent. Jon: "if kusala, can be with or without panna (and panna can be of the level of insight or not of that level). So it is not discursive thinking but panna of the level of insight knowledge that distinguishes mundane path moments from non-path moments. As regards the conditions for the arising of such mundane path moments, these include understanding the aspects of the true dhamma that are heard and reflecting on those aspects that have been understood, both of which clearly involve discursive thinking. But it is discursive thinking that is accompanied by panna of the appropriate level; discursive thinking itself is not something that needs to be developed." Joop: in daily life, for example when deciding to get in New York, a developed level of discursive thinking is very welcome. And I'm sure it can have a positive function in spiritual life too, I don't like that Zen-anti-intellectualism. And also discursive thinking useful in spiritual life has to be developed: a recent born child does not have much of it. Your definition of "discursive thinking" is very peculiar not to say bizar. To me "discursive thinking" is the MANIPULATION OF CONCEPTS. And in good contemplating the concepts are rich of ultimate realities. As an exemple I give the contemplation on Compassion by Nyanaponika. Metta Joop The Four Sublime States; Contemplations on Love, Compassion, Sympathetic Joy and Equanimity by Nyanaponika Thera …. Compassion (Karuna) The world suffers. But most men have their eyes and ears closed. They do not see the unbroken stream of tears flowing through life; they do not hear the cry of distress continually pervading the world. Their own little grief or joy bars their sight, deafens their ears. Bound by selfishness, their hearts turn stiff and narrow. Being stiff and narrow, how should they be able to strive for any higher goal, to realize that only release from selfish craving will effect their own freedom from suffering? It is compassion that removes the heavy bar, opens the door to freedom, makes the narrow heart as wide as the world. Compassion takes away from the heart the inert weight, the paralyzing heaviness; it gives wings to those who cling to the lowlands of self. Through compassion the fact of suffering remains vividly present to our mind, even at times when we personally are free from it. It gives us the rich experience of suffering, thus strengthening us to meet it prepared, when it does befall us. Compassion reconciles us to our own destiny by showing us the life of others, often much harder than ours. Behold the endless caravan of beings, men and beasts, burdened with sorrow and pain! The burden of every one of them, we also have carried in bygone times during the unfathomable sequence of repeated births. Behold this, and open your heart to compassion! And this misery may well be our own destiny again! He who is without compassion now, will one day cry for it. If sympathy with others is lacking, it will have to be acquired through one's own long and painful experience. This is the great law of life. Knowing this, keep guard over yourself! Beings, sunk in ignorance, lost in delusion, hasten from one state of suffering to another, not knowing the real cause, not knowing the escape from it. This insight into the general law of suffering is the real foundation of our compassion, not any isolated fact of suffering. Hence our compassion will also include those who at the moment may be happy, but act with an evil and deluded mind. In their present deeds we shall foresee their future state of distress, and compassion will arise. The compassion of the wise man does not render him a victim of suffering. His thoughts, words and deeds are full of pity. But his heart does not waver; unchanged it remains, serene and calm. How else should he be able to help? May such compassion arise in our hearts! Compassion that is sublime nobility of heart and intellect which knows, understands and is ready to help. Compassion that is strength and gives strength: this is highest compassion. And what is the highest manifestation of compassion? To show to the world the path leading to the end of suffering, the path pointed out, trodden and realized to perfection by Him, the Exalted One, the Buddha. #65511 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:49 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe, 128 nilovg Dear friends, There is a sixth vatthu which is not one of the pasåda-rúpas, sense- organs. This is the rúpa which is the material support, the physical base for all cittas other than the pañca-viññå.nas, the sense- cognitions of seeing, hearing, etc. This rúpa is called in the commentaries the heart-base or hadaya-vatthu 1). We should know its function, but there is no need to specify its exact location. The hadaya-vatthu, heart-base, is different from the mind-door. The mind- door is a citta, the bhavangupaccheda (arrest-bhavanga) which is the last bhavanga-citta arising before the mind-door-adverting- consciousness (mano-dvåråvajjana-citta). The hadaya-vatthu is rúpa, not nåma. When sound contacts the ear-sense, the five-door-adverting- consciousness (pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta) which arises has as its place of origin the hadaya-vatthu, but the hearing-consciousness has the earsense, the sotappasåda-rúpa, as its vatthu. All succeeding cittas of that process, however, have the hadaya-vatthu as their place of origin. All cittas of the mind-door process too have the hadaya-vatthu as their place of origin. The pa.tisandhi-citta, the bhavanga-citta and the cuti-citta are, as we have seen, ``process-free cittas'' (víthi-mutta cittas), cittas which do not arise within a process and which experience an object without dependence on any door. The ``process-free cittas'' also need, in the planes where there are both nåma and rúpa, a vatthu, a physical base. A new life begins when the pa.tisandhi-citta arises; however, there is not only nåma, there has to be rúpa as well. The hadaya-vatthu is the rúpa which is the vatthu of the pa.tisandhi- citta. Also all bhavanga-cittas and the cuti-citta have the hadaya- vatthu as their physical base. The vatthu is the place of origin not only of citta, but also of cetasikas arising together with the citta. Thus, except in the planes of existence where there is only nåma there has to be rúpakkhandha as well when the four nåmakkhandhas, which include citta and cetasikas, arise. --------- footnote 1): The name “heart-base” cannot be found in the scriptures. The “Book of Conditional Relations”, the seventh book of the Abhidhamma, refers under “support condition” (nissaya paccaya) to the heart-base as “that rúpa” which is the material support for the “mind-element” and the “mind-consciousness element”. These “elements” are the cittas other than the pañca- viññå.nas. ********* Nina. #65512 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:52 am Subject: Letter on Vipassana I, 1. nilovg Letter on Vipassanå I Dear Dhamma friends, Sarah and Jonothan traveled from Hong Kong to Bangkok in order to visit Khun Sujin and talk about problems which arise concerning the development of satipaììhåna. I received the cassette tapes of these discussions and I would like to share with you what I learnt from these tapes. The discussions dealt with the goal of satipaììhåna and the way of its development. Right understanding of realities which appear through the six doors is the goal. Khun Sujin explained that it is useless to have many moments of sati without understanding anything, without understanding the reality which appears through one of the six doors. We should remember what the object of sati of satipa.t.thåna is: paramattha dhammas, absolute realities, that is, nåma, mental phenomena, and rúpa, physical phenomena, appearing one at a time. Before we studied the Dhamma we knew only conventional truth, such as people, houses and trees. Through the Dhamma we learn about paramattha dhammas, nåma and rúpa. Citta, consciousness, is nåma, it experiences something. Rúpa is the reality which does not experience anything. Seeing is a citta, it experiences an object, visible object. Visible object is rúpa, it does not experience anything. It is useful to combine the study of the suttas with the study of the Abhidhamma, Khun Sujin remarked, because this helps us to understand our life as being different realities, as nåma and rúpa. We should reflect more on the nature of citta, the reality which experiences an object. When we know more about the conditions for its arising we shall have more understanding of its characteristic of anattå, not self. Khun Sujin reminded Sarah and Jonothan that different objects appear because cittas arise in processes which experience objects through the doors of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. When we are fast asleep there are no objects appearing through the different doorways. Bhavanga-cittas (life- continuum) are arising and falling away in succession, which have as their function to preserve the continuity of life as this particular person. If there would not be citta we would not be alive. When we are fast asleep we do not know any object of this world, we do not know who our parents are, what our possessions are, we are not involved with anything of this world. When we wake up we experience again the objects of this world. ******* Nina. #65513 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:23 pm Subject: Re: Letter on Vipassana I, 1. philofillet Hi Nina, and all Just testing to see if the Yahoo problem has been worked out. > Right understanding of realities which appear > through the six doors is the goal. For me, now, it seems like a distant goal. This sounds like a degree of insight that is foreign to my experience. Intellectual understanding is a helpful condition, yes, but to wait for right understanding of realities appearing through the door, no, there is not patience for that now. Khun Sujin explained that it is > useless to have many moments of sati without understanding anything, > without understanding the reality which appears through one of the > six doors. Hmm. This is not the message I get from Dhammapada. I have returned to studying Dhammapada, which is where I started in Dhamma. We can decide to look below the surface of Dhammapada and say that it is all about ultimate realities, not what it says on the surface, but I'm not sure that's a good idea. Or we can disregard Dhammapada, as I have heard someone say in the recorded talks "some friends do." Or we can understand that there are times that one benefits by being inspired and guided by the conventional truth taught in Dhammapada even without the deeper understanding of ultimate realities. Robert said "the flavour of abhidhamma is anatta" and I think that's true. I would say the flavour of Dhammapada is appamada (heedfulness) and that is the flavour I am getting these days. I don't believe appamada is dependent on penetrative understanding. Different season, different approaches. No need to fret about it. (Not that you are - I write those words to myself.) Phil #65514 From: connie Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:53 pm Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nichiconn Dear Stressed and Howard, our friend Buddhaghosa, in the commentary to the 10th stanza of the loving-kindness discourse: 71. The Blessed One thus showed those bhikkhus the maintenance of lovingkindness in being in its various aspects. And now, since lovingkindness is near to [wrong] view of self because it has creatures for its object, he therefore completed the teaching with the following stanza. Di.t.thi~n ca anupagamma [siilavaa dassanena sampanno Kaamesu vineyya gedha"m na hi jaatu gabbaseyya"m puna-r-eti.] 'But he that traffics not with views ['Is virtuous with perfected seeing 'Till, purged of greed for sense-desires, 'He will surely come no more to any womb']. He did this as a preventative against [their straying into] the thicket of [speculative] views (see M i 8) by showing those bhikkhus how the Noble Plane is reached through making that same loving-kindness jhana the basis for insight. 72. Its meaning is this. After emerging from the abiding in loving-kindness jhana, which was specified (detailed) thus 'This is Divine Abiding here, they say', [he discerns] the [non-material-form] ideas there [in that jhana] consisting in thinking and exploring and the rest, [which he defines as 'name'.] Then, following on the defining, etc., of these [jhana factors as 'name'], he discerns the ideas of [material-] form there, [which he defines as 'form'.] By means of this delimitation of name-and-form he traffics not with views (di.t.thi~n ca anupagamma), [avoiding that by discerning] in the way stated thus 'A heap of mere determinations; No creature can be found herein' (S i 135), till eventually he becomes virtuous (siilavaa) with the kind of virute that is supramundane since he is now perfected (sampanno) in the right view belonging to the Path of Stream Entry, which is called seeing (dassanena), and which is associated with that supramundane virtue. After that, whatever greed (gedha"m) there is in him still remaining unabandoned in the guise of sensual desire as [subjective] defilement for sensual desires (kaamesu) as objects (see Nd1 1), of that he becomes purged (vineyya) - vineyya (lit. 'having removed' or 'having disciplined') = vinayitvaa (alternative gerund); that is, he becomes cured - by attenuation [of certain defilements] and by abandoning [of certain others] without remainder (see e.g. M i 34) by means of [his attaining] the Paths of the Once Returner and the Non Returner, he will surely come no more to any womb (na hi jaatu gabbhaseyya"m puna-r-eti); absolutely never again coming to any womb, he is reborn only in the Pure Abodes, where he reaches Arahantship and attains extinction. peace, another minority circumstance #65515 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter on Vipassana I, 1. nilovg Hi Phil, I appreciate the Dhammapada very much. What passage did you have in mind, when you think that it is not about understanding of ultimate realities? That is, if you like to discuss this. You do not need to answer. Nina. Op 22-nov-2006, om 1:23 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > This is not the message I get from Dhammapada. I have returned > to studying Dhammapada, which is where I started in Dhamma. We can > decide to look below the surface of Dhammapada and say that it is all > about ultimate realities, not what it says on the surface, but I'm not > sure that's a good idea...Or we can > understand that there are times that one benefits by being inspired > and > guided by the conventional truth taught in Dhammapada even without the > deeper understanding of ultimate realities. #65516 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:07 pm Subject: Re: Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling sukinderpal Hi Howard, Matt, Ken, Nina, Swee Boon, all, I had planned to write in response to your earlier call for response, but then I read Ken H's post, the one to which this post of yours is a response, and I dropped the idea. I thought that he said more than I would have done (in five times the number of words ;-)). I also liked Nina's and Swee Boon's response. I was lead to reread this part of Matt's original post and I think that you might have misread him. Matt: <> ----- and this is your response here: Howard: > Let me make it brief, Ken. Matt said that the reason sotapannas don't > kill is that there are really no people existing to be killed. I consider that > an absurdity, and a moral horror story. I don't want to know a person, ariyan > or not, for whom that is the reason they don't kill. My God! I'm stunned that > you cannot see the absurdity and moral perversity of this! Sukin: You thought that Matt meant that `"other people" don't exist"', a position you feared, as leaning towards being indifferent and careless in one's interaction with others. What I think in fact he was pointing to was the Sotapana's consideration of "own self" as being non-existent. In which case, what Matt is saying is that the Sotapana does not kill even "under threat" of life, since there is no `self' to protect. Likewise, there is never a need to lie, even at gun point, for the same reason. I think if you had considered this part; "and no one who will gain by lying or killing " of his statement more carefully, you might have come to a different conclusion? Metta, Sukin #65517 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nilovg Dear Connie and Howard, Howard, I completely understand what you mean by: I feel with you when you say this, we are with fellowbeings living in this world. But, we should not forget paramattha dhammas. We should thank Connie for her post, and be most grateful for the eye-opener she gave us with her inspiring post: > creatures > for its object.> > I feel that I did not consider this enough. Before I realize it I > regard the person I extend metta to as lasting. We do not like to > hear this reminder. Lodewijk said that he accepts it grudgingly. He > accepts it. Connie quotes: This is an exhortation to develop insight, beginning with the first stage: discerning the difference between nama and rupa. No matter whether one develops jhana or not, all stages of insight have to be reached. Howard, we have metta and compassion for our fellowmen, but let us not cling to the names metta and compassion. Before we notice it, we are taking akusala for kusala, not being clear about the reality of metta and of compassion, not seeing them as dhammas arising just for a moment because of conditions. We are also clinging to ideas of this or that person we form up, and to their names. Before we know it we are trafficking with views. Howard, as to vipaaka, you say: N: Yes, for kamma to produce result there are also other conditions: the time when one is living (war or peace), the place where one lives. etc. But it is hard to say much about this subject, since there are also factors such as supportive kamma, and kamma that prevents the occurring of result. I think that the role of fellowbeings is more obvious in the case of good friendship and bad friendship, these condition kusala cittas and akusala cittas. With many thanks to Connie and sincere appreciation, Nina. Op 22-nov-2006, om 2:53 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > And now, since > lovingkindness is near to [wrong] view of self because it has > creatures > for its object, he therefore completed the teaching with the following > stanza. > > Di.t.thi~n ca anupagamma [siilavaa dassanena sampanno > Kaamesu vineyya gedha"m na hi jaatu gabbaseyya"m puna-r-eti.] > 'But he that traffics not with views > ['Is virtuous with perfected seeing > 'Till, purged of greed for sense-desires, > 'He will surely come no more to any womb']. #65518 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling nilovg Dear Sukin, You made matters very clear now. I also had misunderstandings about this post. Nina. Op 22-nov-2006, om 8:07 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > You thought that Matt meant that `"other people" don't exist"', a > position > you feared, as leaning towards being indifferent and careless in one's > interaction with others. What I think in fact he was pointing to > was the > Sotapana's consideration of "own self" as being non-existent. In which > case, what Matt is saying is that the Sotapana does not kill even > "under > threat" of life, since there is no `self' to protect. #65519 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:44 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 116 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 116. Intro: The foregoing sections and also this section expound again the danger and disadvantage of ignorance. As we have read, ignorance conceals the danger of the cycle of birth and death. It is the condition that one sees rebirth as happiness. Ignorance conditions the wrong view that a lasting being dies and is reborn. Because of ignorance one fails to see that at each moment there is birth and death of the khandhas, of naama and ruupa. We are reminded of the danger of clinging to the view of ‘ this is myself, I am the owner, I am existing, I am the doer, and I am a person who feels’. This section explains that ignorance conditions wrong view and the four perversions by which one sees all dhammas of one’s life in a distorted way, as self, permanent, happiness and beautiful. ------------ Text Vis.: 116. When he is confused about the characteristics of formations, instead of apprehending their specific and general characteristics, he figures that formations are self, belong to a self, are lasting, pleasant, beautiful. -------- N: As to the specific characteristics of conditioned dhammas (sabhaavalakkha.na) the Tiika explains, to begin with, the characteristic of ruupa as being molested (ruppana). As we read in the ‘Dispeller of Delusion’ (p. 3) ruupa is molested by cold, hunger, thirst, it is ‘broken up’. Because of ruupas of the body one is susceptible to these kinds of suffering. The Tiika mentions as specific characteristic hardness that is touched, and so on. Through the bodysense the characteristics of hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion or pressure are experienced. These are characteristics of ruupa. The fact that the Tiika adds: the hardness that is experienced by touch (kakkha.laphusana) emphasizes that this characteristic is not an abstract entity; it appears when it is touched, when it impinges on the bodysense. The Tiika then mentions the general characteristics of impermanence and so on. Thus, the three general characteristics (sama~n~nalakkha.na) of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. As to the words, (he figures that) ‘formations are self, belong to a self’, the Tiika emphasizes that one will definitely regard dhammas, beginning with ruupa, as self, and moreover, as belonging to a self (attaniya). As we read in the text of the Visuddhimagga: < he figures that formations are self, belong to a self, are lasting, pleasant, beautiful.> Here the text refers to the perversions, vipallaasa, of perception (saññaa), of citta, of wrong view. Through these perversities one regards: what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness); what is non-self (anattaa) as self; what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful. Thus, there are four perversions. The sotaapanna has eliminated the perversions of perception, citta and wrong view, that the impermanent is permanent and what is non- self as self; further, the perversion of wrong view that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. The annaagaami has eliminated: the perversions of perception and citta that the impure is pure. The arahat has eliminated the perversions of perception and citta that the painful is pleasant (Vis. XXII, 68). Thus we see that not all perversions are conditioned by wrong view. However, all of them are conditioned by ignorance. Conclusion: So long as we are confused about the specific characteristics of naama and ruupa as they appear at this moment, we shall never realize the three general characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. Conditioned dhammas appearing in our daily life have the general characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattaa. First we have to be clear what these conditioned dhammas are: all naama and ruupa of our daily life as they appear through the six doors. Thus, first right understanding of the specific characteristics of naama and ruupa has to be gradually developed. Hardness appears through the bodysense and this is different from feeling arising on account of the experience of hardness. At the first stage of insight the difference between the characteristics of naama and ruupa is realized. Their arising and falling away is realized later on. Because of ignorance we have a distorted view of the phenomena of daily life, regarding them as self, lasting, happiness and beautiful. The arahat who has eradicated ignorance is without these perversions. This section is an exhortation to develop right understanding beginning with the specific characteristics of naama and ruupa appearing in our daily life. ********* Nina. #65520 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:53 am Subject: Visuddhimagga 115, 116. nilovg Hi Larry, I was confused (vimuu.lho) about the number of Vis, posting already 116. I had both 115 and 116 ready. I shall now also post 115. Nina. #65521 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:53 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 587- The Stages of Insight(i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd Just as nåma and rúpa which arise at the present moment are conditioned, so they were in the past and so they will be in the future. We have to continue to be born and to receive results of kamma because there is still ignorance and craving and these condition rebirth. There is clinging to the objects which can be experienced through the senses, there is clinging to life. The clinging which arises today is conditioned by clinging which arose in the past and which has been accumulated and carried on from one life to the next life. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65522 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:59 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 115 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 115: Text Vis.: 115. When he is confused about the round of rebirths, instead of taking the round of rebirths as pictured thus: The endless chain of aggregates, Of elements, of bases too, That carries on unbrokenly Is what is called 'the round of births', he figures that it is a lasting being that goes from this world to another world, that comes from another world to this world. --------- N: The Tiika states with regards to the expression: a lasting being (aya.m satto), that this means that he believes: this is myself, I am the owner, I am existing, I am the doer, and I am a person who feels. This also means that a (lasting) being dies and is reborn. The Tiika explains that the expression and so on (aadi) that is added in the text, summarizes his belief that he is created by a lord creator or by Brahma. ---------- Conclusion: As we read in the text, the cycle of birth and death is an endless chain of aggregates, of elements (dhaatu), and bases (ayaatana). Naama and ruupa can be classified as khandhas, as elements and as ayaatanas. The ayaatanas are the sense objects, the sense organs, mindbase which is all cittas, and the realities which are dhammaayatanas to be experienced through the mind-door. This section and the former ones emphasize the danger of clinging to the belief in a lasting being, a self. Wrong view is deeply rooted and it is hard to give up the idea that past lives, the present life and future lives belong to a self. Through insight we can come to understand what the khandhas, the elements and the ayaatanas really are. For example when visible object impinges on the eyesense there are conditions for the arising of seeing. At that moment the ayaatanas of visible object, eyesense and seeing associate. Whatever arises because of conditions has to fall away immediately and it does not belong to a self. The wrong view of ‘ this is myself, I am the owner, I am existing, I am the doer, and I am a person who feels’ can be abandoned through insight. ******* Nina. -- #65523 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:21 am Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Matt & all) - > > > ==================== > Thanks, Jon! :-) BTW, I don't suspect anything lacking with regard to > Matt's personal moral sense and goodness. I consider his position, as stated, > to be one that is ethically far off the mark, however, and I worry about > taking belief systems to a point where they lead to "odd" conclusions in the moral > realm. When that happens to me - and it does - I treat it as a signal to > reconsider. > I am the same as you on this: a signal to reconsider. But we should remember that so far the only "odd" conclusions in this thread are ones that have been attributed to Matt, not ones that he has himself expressed ;-)) Jon #65524 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 11/18/06 8:27:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > >> But I think that what was unique to the Buddha's teaching, being its >> very essence, is very much to the point when considering exactly what >> the Buddha said elsewhere in the teachings, for example about 'stamping >> out akusala like a grass fire'. Did the Buddha urge 'active opposition >> to akusala states', as you suggest, or did he urge the development of >> kusala of all kinds on any occasion (I think you'd agree that the two >> are not the same)? >> >> > ====================== > He urged both. > If we think about it for a moment it will be apparent that the Buddha could not have taught both (a) the development of kusala of all kinds at all times and (b) the taking of certain actions to oppose akusala states. Unless the latter is identical with the former, it must involve akusala states, and this would be in contradiction with the former. An example of what I mean would be the idea that while the 'practices' urged by the Buddha may involve moments of akusala they will nevertheless give rise to some kusala moments in amongst the akusala. A teaching that recommends the undertaking of such practices would not be a teaching that urges the development of kusala at all times. Take as an example the Buddha's teaching on guarding the sense-doors. Some people see this as referring to a kind of 'monitoring' of mental states arising in reaction to sense-door experiences, calling for a practice of doing just that with a view to lessening the akusala and increasing the kusala. I believe such a practice would give rise to mostly aksuala mind-moments and very few (if any) kusala. Underlying the practice is the idea of being able to cause kusala mental states to arise and aksuala mental states to not persist (whether by merely 'observing' or by some other more positive action). The passages in the teachings on guarding the sense doors that I am familiar with are descriptive in nature and tone rather than imperative. We are not being told what we should or shouldn't be *doing*, but how important to the development of the path is kusala of different kinds that has *been developed*. According to the texts, it is by the development of sati that the sense-doors become guarded. Jon #65525 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin (and Matt, and Ken) - In a message dated 11/22/06 2:19:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@... writes: > Sukin: > You thought that Matt meant that `"other people" don't exist"', a position > you feared, as leaning towards being indifferent and careless in one's > interaction with others. What I think in fact he was pointing to was the > Sotapana's consideration of "own self" as being non-existent. In which > case, what Matt is saying is that the Sotapana does not kill even "under > threat" of life, since there is no `self' to protect. Likewise, there is > never > a need to lie, even at gun point, for the same reason. I think if you had > considered this part; "and no one who will gain by lying or killing " of his > > statement more carefully, you might have come to a different > ======================== Matt had said "They do not lie or kill because there is no one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing." That "no one to be protected" is the person to be lied to or killed. The "no one who will gain by lying or killing" is the perpetrator. The fact is that their merely conventional existence is *not* a moral basis for not lying or killing, and, in fact, could well serve as excuse for those very transgressions if one were looking for an excuse. In fact at the Buddha's time, there was a group that pretty much did that. This point seems very clear to me. With metta, Howard #65526 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:00 am Subject: Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) nidive Hi Jon, > According to the texts, it is by the development of sati that the > sense-doors become guarded. Actually not quite so. According to MN 39, the guarding of the senses comes first before the development of mindfulness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html Regards, Swee Boon #65527 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/22/06 4:16:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear Connie and Howard, > Howard, I completely understand what you mean by: tree-and-forest talk is really just metaphor for people-and-khandha > talk. There is no > issue of sila without people, and, more generally, without sentient > beings, > empty as they are.> I feel with you when you say this, we are with > fellowbeings living in this world. > > But, we should not forget paramattha dhammas. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes. And I understand (and agree with) you when you say this. The paramattha dhammas are the basis. It is they that lie in relation to each other, and it is they, with the relational patterns among them, that make possible the sankharic construction of conventional phenomena. There can be no experiencing of trees, people, cats, dogs, and DSG-posts without a basis in rupas and namas (including the fabrication operations of the sankharakkhandha). --------------------------------------------- We should thank Connie > > for her post, and be most grateful for the eye-opener she gave us > with her inspiring post: > > >creatures > >for its object.> > >I feel that I did not consider this enough. Before I realize it I > >regard the person I extend metta to as lasting. We do not like to > >hear this reminder. Lodewijk said that he accepts it grudgingly. He > >accepts it. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it is an important post, for which I also thank Connie. To maintain metta, karuna, and mudita without reifying persons is to walk a thin, taut, tightrope. The trick is not to fall off, to the right (the love is present but perverted to attachment by self-making) or to the left (destroyed is belief in the existence of people in any sense, and along with that metta, karuna, and mudita). The norm for falling off is to fall to the right. If one must fall, it is the better way. A fall to the right is a fall to the center of samsara. A fall to the left is a fall into a hell realm. ------------------------------------------- > > Connie quotes: name-and-form he traffics not with views (di.t.thi~n ca anupagamma), > [avoiding that by discerning] in the way stated thus 'A heap of mere > determinations; No creature can be found herein' (S i 135)> > > This is an exhortation to develop insight, beginning with the first > stage: discerning the difference between nama and rupa. No matter > whether one develops jhana or not, all stages of insight have to be > reached. -------------------------------------- Howard: Directly knowing the world as it is, the insight mentioned above will not bring with it ill effects.It will conduce only to good. But merely adopting the "no creature" view as *belief* can lead to perverse attitudes towards others. --------------------------------------- > Howard, we have metta and compassion for our fellowmen, but let us > not cling to the names metta and compassion. > --------------------------------------- Howard: When metta and karuna are there, there is no need to cling. When they are not, hopefully enough of a glimmer of them is present to see the need for their further cultivation. As for clinging to the names/concepts, what do you have in mind? ------------------------------------- Before we notice it, we > are taking akusala for kusala, not being clear > about the reality of > metta and of compassion, not seeing them as dhammas arising just for > a moment because of conditions. > ------------------------------------ Howard: There is always the possibility of perversion of view. I consider the view that there are no people to be killed as perversion of view. ------------------------------------ We are also clinging to ideas of this > > or that person we form up, and to their names. Before we know it we > are trafficking with views. ------------------------------------ Howard: Care must be taken with all views. But some are worse than others. ----------------------------------- > Howard, as to vipaaka, you say: on multiple conditions. We interact with others all the time, and > among the > supportive conditions that lead to kammic fruition are those that > find their > origin with others. We do *not* exist in worlds entirely of our own > making. > Obviously, though, the kamma that conditions eventual vipaka is our > own, not another's.> > N: Yes, for kamma to produce result there are also other conditions: > the time when one is living (war or peace), the place where one > lives. etc. But it is hard to say much about this subject, since > there are also factors such as supportive kamma, and kamma that > prevents the occurring of result. > I think that the role of fellowbeings is more obvious in the case of > good friendship and bad friendship, these condition kusala cittas and > akusala cittas. > > With many thanks to Connie and sincere appreciation, > Nina. > > ====================== With metta, Howard #65528 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:12 am Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/22/06 7:45:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > upasaka@... wrote: > >Hi, Jon (and Matt &all) - > > > > > >==================== > > Thanks, Jon! :-) BTW, I don't suspect anything lacking with regard to > >Matt's personal moral sense and goodness. I consider his position, as > stated, > >to be one that is ethically far off the mark, however, and I worry about > >taking belief systems to a point where they lead to "odd" conclusions in > the moral > >realm. When that happens to me - and it does - I treat it as a signal to > >reconsider. > > > > I am the same as you on this: a signal to reconsider. But we should > remember that so far the only "odd" conclusions in this thread are ones > that have been attributed to Matt, not ones that he has himself > expressed ;-)) > > Jon > ====================== I consider "They [sotapannas] do not lie or kill because there is no one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing" to be an odd conclusion. The fact of anatta in the person, the fact that there is no graspable or even discernable core of permanence or self-existence or singleness/unity in the person, should not lead to this conclusion. I do not refrain from lying and killing because of anatta-belief. I don't believe you or Matt do either. I certainly do not believe that such is the case for stream enterers. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard #65529 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:43 am Subject: Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha nidive Hi All, A further thought on the six internal sense bases: If there were no eye, would mental pain arise on account of what is not seen? If there were no ear, would mental pain arise on account of what is not heard? If there were no nose, would mental pain arise on account of what is not smelled? If there were no tongue, would mental pain arise on account of what is not tasted? If there were no body, would mental pain arise on account of what is not touched? If there were no intellect, would mental pain arise on account of what is not thought? If there were no six internal sense bases, would mental pain arise on account of what is not sensed? Therefore from the cessation of the six internal sense bases comes the cessation of this entire mass of mental pain. And how does the cessation of the six internal sense bases in the future [after death/parinibbana] come about? By the very cessation of ignorance in the here and now. Thus, this is the nibbana-element with no residue left spoken of by the Blessed Buddha. This nibbana-element is empty of even this final modicum of disturbance (or non-emptinesss): that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition. Regards, Swee Boon #65530 From: "matheesha" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:38 am Subject: doubt of a sotapanna matheesha333 Hi everyone, Here is an interesting sutta on how the doubt of a sotapanna vanishes. I feel it alters the way we understand doubt as a fetter which is broken at the sotapanna stage... -------------------- AN 7.51 Avyakata Sutta Undeclared Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A iv 67 Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, what is the cause, what is the reason, why uncertainty doesn't arise in an instructed disciple of the noble ones over the undeclared issues?" "Because of the cessation of views, monk, uncertainty doesn't arise in an instructed disciple of the noble ones over the undeclared issues. The view-standpoint, 'The Tathagata exists after death,' the view-standpoint, 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death,' the view- standpoint, 'The Tathagata both does and doesn't exist after death,' the view-standpoint, 'The Tathagata neither does nor doesn't exist after death': The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern view, doesn't discern the origination of view, doesn't discern the cessation of view, doesn't discern the path of practice leading to the cessation of view, and so for him that view grows. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. But the instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns view, discerns the origination of view, discerns the cessation of view, discerns the path of practice leading to the cessation of view, and so for him that view ceases. He is freed from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs. He is freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. "Thus knowing, thus seeing, the instructed disciple of the noble ones doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata exists after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata both does and doesn't exist after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata neither does nor doesn't exist after death.' Thus knowing, thus seeing, he is thus of a nature not to declare the undeclared issues. Thus knowing, thus seeing, he isn't paralyzed, doesn't quake, doesn't shiver or shake over the undeclared issues. "'The Tathagata exists after death' — this craving-standpoint, this perception-standpoint, this product of conceiving, this product of elaboration, this clinging-standpoint: That's anguish.1 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death': That's anguish. 'The Tathagata both does and doesn't exist after death': That's anguish. 'The Tathagata neither does nor doesn't exist after death': That's anguish.2 The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern anguish, doesn't discern the origination of anguish, doesn't discern the cessation of anguish, doesn't discern the path of practice leading to the cessation of anguish, and so for him that anguish grows. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. But the instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns anguish, discerns the origination of anguish, discerns the cessation of anguish, discerns the path of practice leading to the cessation of anguish, and so for him that anguish ceases. He is freed from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs. He is freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. "Thus knowing, thus seeing, the instructed disciple of the noble ones doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata exists after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata both does and doesn't after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata neither does nor doesn't exist after death.' Thus knowing, thus seeing, he is thus of a nature not to declare the undeclared issues. Thus knowing, thus seeing, he isn't paralyzed, doesn't quake, doesn't shiver or shake over the undeclared issues." --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Notes 1. "Anguish" here translates vippatisara, which is usually rendered into English as "remorse" or "regret." Here, however, the feeling of vippatisara relates to concerns about the future, rather than the past, and so neither remorse nor regret are appropriate to the context. The anguish alluded to in this passage is based either on the fear that Awakening would entail an end to existence or on the contrary fear that it wouldn't. 2. In some manuscripts, this paragraph runs as follows: "'The Tathagata exists after death' — this craving-standpoint, this perception-standpoint, this product of conceiving, this product of elaboration, this clinging-standpoint: That's anguish. 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death'... 'The Tathagata both does and doesn't exist after death'... 'The Tathagata neither does nor doesn't exist after death' — this craving-standpoint, this perception-standpoint, this product of conceiving, this product of elaboration, this clinging-standpoint: That's anguish. See also: MN 63; MN 72 ------------------------------------ "Lord, what is the cause, what is the reason, > why uncertainty doesn't arise in an instructed disciple of the noble > ones over the undeclared issues?" > > "Because of the cessation of views, monk, uncertainty doesn't arise > in an instructed disciple of the noble ones over the undeclared > issues. The view-standpoint, 'The Tathagata exists after death,' the > view-standpoint,..... So the reason why doubt doesnt arise in a sotapanna (is this the same as 'instructed disciple of the noble ones'?) is that views don't arise. Are these views (ditti) limited to religious ones which were present at the time? It would seem to make sense if that were the case. Because silabbataparamasa is also about not following the teachings/rite and ritual of another teacher. Also sotapannas are known to have unshakable faith in the Buddha,Dhamma,Sangha. There is a lot to do here about being faithful to the buddhadhamma. Sakkaya ditti (self view) seems like yet another view. I wonder if this was a widely known and identified view in other religions at the time as well. It would make sense that having seen hethu-phala (cause and effect), that sotapannas would not hold on to any of these views which were present at the time. Samma ditti (right view) in terms of buddhism included seeing hethu-phala and understanding that the five aggregates arise based on cause and effect. It was a middle path of sorts, in addition neatly avoiding the other extreme of thinking there was no being whatsoever as well. So even buddhism had it's own view, but it was one based on experiencing reality through vipassana, not mere conjecture and not to be held on to. These views seem to have been prevalent at the time of the buddha and there are long lists of them in the suttas. These would have undoubtedly led to a lot of doubt and debate :) The common interpretation of doubt as a fetter that the sotapannas break is that they have no doubt about the buddha, dhamma and arya sangha. Perhaps it is more specific than that, as the sutta below seems to suggest. Certainly atleast for me this idea seems to have that 'ka-chink' feeling when another piece of the jigsaw falls into place! with metta Matheesha #65531 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - We disagree on this matter. I understand the 4 right efforts, as in the following, to be indeed a monotoring activity: _______________ "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."— SN 45.8 ======================== With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/22/06 8:31:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > upasaka@... wrote: > >Hi, Jon - > > > >In a message dated 11/18/06 8:27:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, > >jonabbott@... writes: > > > > > >>But I think that what was unique to the Buddha's teaching, being its > >>very essence, is very much to the point when considering exactly what > >>the Buddha said elsewhere in the teachings, for example about 'stamping > >>out akusala like a grass fire'. Did the Buddha urge 'active opposition > >>to akusala states', as you suggest, or did he urge the development of > >>kusala of all kinds on any occasion (I think you'd agree that the two > >>are not the same)? > >> > >> > >====================== > > He urged both. > > > > If we think about it for a moment it will be apparent that the Buddha > could not have taught both (a) the development of kusala of all kinds at > all times and (b) the taking of certain actions to oppose akusala > states. Unless the latter is identical with the former, it must involve > akusala states, and this would be in contradiction with the former. > > An example of what I mean would be the idea that while the 'practices' > urged by the Buddha may involve moments of akusala they will > nevertheless give rise to some kusala moments in amongst the akusala. A > teaching that recommends the undertaking of such practices would not be > a teaching that urges the development of kusala at all times. > > Take as an example the Buddha's teaching on guarding the sense-doors. > Some people see this as referring to a kind of 'monitoring' of mental > states arising in reaction to sense-door experiences, calling for a > practice of doing just that with a view to lessening the akusala and > increasing the kusala. I believe such a practice would give rise to > mostly aksuala mind-moments and very few (if any) kusala. Underlying > the practice is the idea of being able to cause kusala mental states to > arise and aksuala mental states to not persist (whether by merely > 'observing' or by some other more positive action). > > The passages in the teachings on guarding the sense doors that I am > familiar with are descriptive in nature and tone rather than > imperative. We are not being told what we should or shouldn't be > *doing*, but how important to the development of the path is kusala of > different kinds that has *been developed*. According to the texts, it > is by the development of sati that the sense-doors become guarded. > > Jon > #65532 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] hello from a new member sarahprocter... Dear Melek, --- melek cilingir wrote: > dear sarah, > > thank you for your kind letter. > i have visited the file section of the list, found many useful files > including pali glossary. but i am having difficulties with reaching the > useful files. i tried to read useful files nov. 2006 a few times. but as > soon as i try to search something, i am off from all my active yahoo > windows. do you have any suggestion > how to get them? .... S: I just tested and have no problem. It could be because the file is too big for your computer. For this reason, we've also uploaded 2 smaller files of a)A-K and b)L-Z. Would you kindly check and see if these work better for you and let me know (off-list would be better). .... > yes i live in istanbul > warm regards from there ... S: ....in spite of cold winter weather approaching, I would think:-). Pls let us know here if you find any of the current threads or anything you come across in 'Useful Posts' of particular interest. Metta, Sarah ========= #65533 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 11/22/06 10:49:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi All, > > A further thought on the six internal sense bases: > > If there were no eye, would mental pain arise on account of what is > not seen? > > If there were no ear, would mental pain arise on account of what is > not heard? > > If there were no nose, would mental pain arise on account of what is > not smelled? > > If there were no tongue, would mental pain arise on account of what is > not tasted? > > If there were no body, would mental pain arise on account of what is > not touched? > > If there were no intellect, would mental pain arise on account of what > is not thought? > > If there were no six internal sense bases, would mental pain arise on > account of what is not sensed? > > Therefore from the cessation of the six internal sense bases comes the > cessation of this entire mass of mental pain. > > And how does the cessation of the six internal sense bases in the > future [after death/parinibbana] come about? By the very cessation of > ignorance in the here and now. > > Thus, this is the nibbana-element with no residue left spoken of by > the Blessed Buddha. This nibbana-element is empty of even this final > modicum of disturbance (or non-emptinesss): that connected with the > six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its > condition. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > ======================= If there were nothing at all, there would indeed be no suffering - there would be nothing. And that is nihilism. What else is nihilism? But if there were no separate things to grasp at, no clinging, no desire, no aversion, and no ignorance, there also would be no suffering. With metta, Howard #65534 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:13 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 129 nilovg Dear friends, The sense-bases, citta and the objects experienced by citta can be classified as twelve åyatanas, translated sometimes as ``sense- fields'' (Vis. XV, 1-17). There are six inward åyatanas and six outward åyatanas. They are classified as follows: six inward åyatanas six outward åyatanas eyesense visible object earsense sound smelling-sense odour tasting-sense taste bodysense tangible object mind-base (manåyatana) mind-object (dhammåyatana) Mind-base, manåyatana, includes all cittas; mind-object, dhammåyatana, includes cetasikas, subtle rúpas and nibbåna. When we see, hear or think we believe that a self experiences objects, but in reality there is the association of the inward åyatana and the outward åyatana, the objects ``outside''. This classification can remind us that all our experiences are dependent on conditions. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XV, 15), in the section on the åyatanas, about conditioned realities: ... they do not come from anywhere previous to their arising, nor do they go anywhere after their falling away. On the contrary, before their arising they had no individual essence, and after their falling away their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without power (being exercisable over them) since they exist in dependence on conditions... Likewise they should be regarded as incurious and uninterested. For it does not occur to the eye and visible object, etc., ``Ah, that consciousness might arise from our concurrence''. And as door, physical basis, and object, they have no curiosity about, or interest in, arousing consciousness. On the contrary, it is the absolute rule that eye-consciousness, etc., come into being with the union of eye with visible object, and so on. So they should be regarded as incurious and uninterested... ****** Nina. #65535 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:16 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, I, 2. nilovg Dear friends, Visible object impinges on the eye-door and is experienced by seeing and by the other cittas of the eye-door process. There is sound impinging on the ear-door and there are the other sense objects impinging on their corresponding doorways. On account of the objects which are experienced there are mostly akusala cittas with like or dislike. We keep on thinking of the objects which are experienced through the senses and we create long stories about people and things. We take it for granted that different objects appear all day long, but, we should remember that they appear just because there are cittas arising in processes, víthi-cittas. In the case of seeing, several conditions are needed for seeing to experience visible object. Seeing is vipåkacitta, the result of kamma, a deed performed in the past. Eyesense is also a condition for seeing; eyesense is produced by kamma. Visible object is another condition for seeing; if it would not impinge on the eyesense there could not be seeing. Seeing sees visible object, and then there is paying attention to shape and form which is not seeing. It is important to reflect on the difference between seeing and thinking of concepts such as people and things. In that way it will be clearer that realities such as seeing and visible object can be the objects of mindfulness and right understanding, and that conventional truth, concepts or ideas, are objects of thinking but not objects of awareness. However, the reality which thinks about concepts is a type of nåma and thus it can be object of awareness. Khun Sujin said that when there is more intellectual understanding based on study and reflection, sati can arise, and direct understanding of the characteristics of realities can be developed. I shall quote from a letter of Alan Weller in England, who describes his own experience concerning the study of Dhamma, in order to encourage my husband Lodewijk: “I remember getting stuck with Khun Sujin's tapes, listening to the same ones over and over again. Books like the Visuddhimagga used to send me to sleep. I could not cope with the endless classifications. However, very gradually I just keep on walking. I have no problems now with the Visuddhimagga and I delight in its precision. The teachings are so wide, books, tapes, discussions with people. I like to study what I am interested in and if I find something tiring or difficult I turn to what I find interesting. The Jåtaka stories are very easy to read and so useful for daily life. The wide reading is a condition to have great respect for Khun Sujin's words on the tape, for without those tapes I could not understand the depth of the Dhamma or have the confidence that I have now. This is my advice to Lodewijk: just keep on walking.” Alan refers to what Khun Sujin once said in India: “Keep on walking, even if it is just one step at a time.” We should have more confidence in the value of listening to the Dhamma, studying the scriptures and reflecting on the Dhamma again and again. This is a condition for right understanding of nåma and rúpa, and this understanding is being accumulated. We can be sure that in this way conditions are being built up for the arising of direct awareness and direct understanding which is different from thinking about realities. ****** Nina. #65536 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) nilovg Hi Howard, I quote from Kh Sujin's Perfection of Energy. Note especially the third one. < There are four supreme efforts (sammå-ppadhåna): the effort to avoid the akusala dhammas which have not yet arisen the effort to overcome the akusala dhammas which have arisen the effort to develop kusala dhammas which have not yet arisen the effort to maintain kusala dhammas which have arisen, not to let them decline, to further develop them, to cause them to increase and to reach completion. ----------- Viriya which is a faculty, indriya, and has become a “leader”, must have been accumulated very gradually so that it could become a faculty. The controlling faculty of viriya should be regarded from the point of view of the four supreme efforts. We can notice ourselves whether we have viriya which only begins to develop and is still weak, or whether it is already right effort: the effort which avoids akusala not yet arisen, overcomes akusala already arisen, the effort to cause the arising of kusala which has not yet arisen. The kusala dhamma which has not yet arisen refers to samatha and vipassanå and to the path, magga, the fruition, phala, and nibbåna. As to the words samatha and vipassanå in this context, these refer to satipa.t.thåna. Samatha and vipassanå are developed together and reach completion together by the four Applications of Mindfulness, they should not be separated from each other. Effort is necessary to maintain the kusala dhammas which have arisen, not to let them decline, to further develop them, to cause them to increase and reach completion. > Nina. Op 22-nov-2006, om 16:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "And what, monks, is right effort? > [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, > activates > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non- > arising of > evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. > [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > upholds & exerts > his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful > qualities that > have arisen. > [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > upholds & > exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities > that have not > yet arisen. > [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > upholds & exerts > his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: > This, monks, is > called right effort."— SN 45.8 > ======================== > With metta, > Howard #65537 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:41 am Subject: doubt of a sotaapanna. nilovg Dear Matheesha, I am so glad to see you again. An hour ago I was just thinking about it how your lecture was in London, and I was wondering whether I should ask, but then I thought it better to wait, since you know that we are interested. Now awhole list of questions worth while thinking over. Thank you for this sutta quote. ------- So the reason why doubt doesnt arise in a sotapanna (is this the same as 'instructed disciple of the noble ones'?) is that views don't arise. Are these views (ditti) limited to religious ones which were present at the time? It would seem to make sense if that were the case. Because silabbataparamasa is also about not following the teachings/rite and ritual of another teacher. Also sotapannas are known to have unshakable faith in the Buddha,Dhamma,Sangha. There is a lot to do here about being faithful to the buddhadhamma. ------ N: These views about the Buddha and doubt whether he is alive, in some (refined) way or other, also occur at the present time. The sotaapanna is denoted as: who has heard much, bahussutta. He has considered and practised the Dhamma. He has eradicated all wrong views and all doubts. His unshakable faith in the Buddha,Dhamma,Sangha includes all aspects of the sasana. All aspects of the teachings, of enlightenment of the Buddha, and of the possibility of enlightenment for his followers. Also the Path, the right Path that should be followed. The sotaapanna is firmly established on this Path and cannot deviate from it anymore. He has full confidence that he finally will reach arahatship. --------- M: Sakkaya ditti (self view) seems like yet another view. I wonder if this was a widely known and identified view in other religions at the time as well. ------- N: This is explained as pertaining to the five khandhas, all nama and rupa, taking them for self or belonging to the self, contained in self or the self as container of them. This view conditions actually all other kinds of wrong view. ---------- M: It would make sense that having seen hethu-phala (cause and effect), that sotapannas would not hold on to any of these views which were present at the time. Samma ditti (right view) in terms of buddhism included seeing hethu-phala and understanding that the five aggregates arise based on cause and effect. ---------- N: seeing the different conditions for the dhammas that arise. Cause and effect: kamma and its result. This is seen more clearly at each stage of insight. Now we speak about seeing as vipaaka, but through insight one understands vipaakacitta as a type of nama more clearly. ------- I just gave a few thoughts and hopefully others will come in as well. Nina. #65538 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:37 am Subject: Reconsidering Right Effort (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ...) upasaka_howard Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 11/22/06 12:02:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Hi, Jon - > > We disagree on this matter. I understand the 4 right efforts, as in > the following, to be indeed a monotoring activity: > _______________ > "And what, monks, is right effort? > [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates > persistence, upholds &exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of > evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. > [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds &exerts > > his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities > that > have arisen. > [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that > have not > yet arisen. > [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds &exerts > > his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > development, &culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, > monks, is > called right effort."— SN 45.8 > ======================== > With metta, > Howard > > ============================ I've looked again, more carefully this time, at the 4 right efforts, and upon reexamination, I think you may be correct that it is not a matter of mindful monitoring. As I read exactly what it says, it seems to be more the purposeful cultivation of four intentions/inclinations: The intention for the non-arising of akusala states, the intention for the abandoning of already-arisen akusala states, the intention for the arising of kusala states, and the intention for furtherance of already-arisen kusala states. It seems that this is a matter of efforts at cultivating mental propensities rather than efforts at monitoring mindstates. With metta, Howard #65539 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:27 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila. nilovg Hi Howard, Thank you for your good post. You took great care to express so well the balance between ultimates and life with our fellowmen. If we do not take the utmost care it can be the cause of doubts, confusion, dwindling of confidence in others. They may be under the impression of the teaching of ultimates as being inhuman. ------- H: And I understand (and agree with) you when you say this. The paramattha dhammas are the basis. ..... There can be no experiencing of trees, people, cats, dogs, and DSG-posts without a basis in rupas and namas (including the fabrication operations of the sankharakkhandha). --------------------------------------------- N: Exactly what Kh Sujin says: could there be thinking of persons if there were no nama and rupa. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it is an important post, for which I also thank Connie. To maintain metta, karuna, and mudita without reifying persons is to walk a thin, taut, tightrope. ... ------ N: Very well said. --------- N: Howard, we have metta and compassion for our fellowmen, but let us > not cling to the names metta and compassion. > --------------------------------------- Howard: When metta and karuna are there, there is no need to cling. When they are not, hopefully enough of a glimmer of them is present to see the need for their further cultivation. As for clinging to the names/concepts, what do you have in mind? ------------------------------------- N: I tend to cling to a thought about metta, how beautiful, we should cultivate it. Or to the word metta which I like. Clinging to concepts instead of directly realizing metta as a type of nama which can only arise when there are the right conditions, not at will. Don't we cling to a concept of a person? I read (U Narada) that when a person is in love with someone else, he is in love with his own concept or image of that person. He loves the image or idea he has created of that person. When his expectations do not come true he is disappointed. I also cling to names of persons. I make pictures in my mind of names, perhaps it is only my idiosyncrasy. But it is an example of how we form up concepts all the time. ------------------------------------ N: I thought of vipaka you see as also being conditioned by other (social) factors besides by kamma. But take the example of seeing, that is such a short moment. Besides of being produced by kamma, it is conditioned by the adverting citta that precedes it, by visible object, by eyesense, by light. Here is no place for a person. It is so fast, already gone before we can think of it. To conclude about life in the world, I think of some suttas for lay people with many good counsels. Vyagghapajja sutta (Longknee). at the end we find the accomplishment of confidence, charity, wisdom. He has to do many things, but can still develop insight. He has to be a good citizen, think of family and fellowbeings. Also at the end of the Sigalovaadasutta we find advice for the development of understanding: Who is energetic and not indolent, In misfortune unshaken' Flawless in manner and intelligent, Such a one to honour may attain. Surely not worldly intelligence. And In misfortune unshaken: because of right understanding of kamma and vipaka. Nina. #65540 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha TGrand458@... In a message dated 11/22/2006 11:37:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: If there were nothing at all, there would indeed be no suffering - there would be nothing. And that is nihilism. What else is nihilism? But if there were no separate things to grasp at, no clinging, no desire, no aversion, and no ignorance, there also would be no suffering. With metta, Howard Hi Howard IMO, Nihilism only applies if one has the view that there are "things/entities" to be annihilated. As conditions are empty of anything that can be identified as "them," what is there to be annihilated? -- other than suffering. As I see it, the idea of nihilism is an impossibility if right view is present. Same applies to enternity. I believe the Buddhist position on nihilism is that -- only people with self view/sense of self are subject to that notion. TG #65541 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/22/06 3:56:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Thank you for your good post. ================== And thank you for yours! I appreciate all the detail, and most of all I appreciate your expressed warmth and kind friendship. With metta, Howard #65542 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:19 pm Subject: Re: Perspectives Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > ====================== > I consider "They [sotapannas] do not lie or kill because there is no > one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing" to be an odd > conclusion. The fact of anatta in the person, the fact that there is no > graspable or even discernable core of permanence or self-existence or > singleness/unity in the person, should not lead to this conclusion. I do not refrain from > lying and killing because of anatta-belief. I don't believe you or Matt do > either. I certainly do not believe that such is the case for stream enterers. > I don't want to second-guess Matt's reasoning here (because I think he has not spelt it out fully), but I think the question he is addressing is the question of why sotapannas are *incapable of* killing or stealing, not why they refrain (like you or I do) from doing so. The factors at play in refraining from a given form of akusala are different from those at play in one who no longer has any tendency towards that form of akusala. To expand on that distinction a little, the citta that *refrains from* akusala does not arise in the arahant; he no longer has any latent tendency for akusala and thus is *incapable of* performing any akusala. The question of restraint simply does not arise for him. Jon #65543 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:39 pm Subject: Re: Reconsidering Right Effort (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ...) jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi again, Jon - > > ... > ============================ > I've looked again, more carefully this time, at the 4 right efforts, > and upon reexamination, I think you may be correct that it is not a matter of > mindful monitoring. As I read exactly what it says, it seems to be more the > purposeful cultivation of four intentions/inclinations: The intention for the > non-arising of akusala states, the intention for the abandoning of > already-arisen akusala states, the intention for the arising of kusala states, and the > intention for furtherance of already-arisen kusala states. It seems that this is > a matter of efforts at cultivating mental propensities rather than efforts at > monitoring mindstates. > I think the key question here is whether the effort being described is effort that itself arises in a kusala mindstate, or is the effort that leads to (i.e., that precedes) the arising of a (subsequent) kusala mindstate, because if it is the latter then it would be effort arising in an akusala mindstate. I'd be interested to hear your views on this. Jon PS In the passage you have quoted from SN 45:8, the words "There is the case where" seem to apply to each of the 4 descriptions that follow, so that the passage could also be arranged as: << << << And what, monks, is right effort? There is the case where: [1] a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen, [or] [ii] he generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen, [or] [iii] he generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen, [or] [iv] he generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen. This, monks, is called right effort. >> >> >> #65544 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/22/06 5:00:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > IMO, Nihilism only applies if one has the view that there are > "things/entities" to be annihilated. As conditions are empty of anything > that can be > identified as "them," what is there to be annihilated? -- other than > suffering. > As I see it, the idea of nihilism is an impossibility if right view is > present. Same applies to enternity. I believe the Buddhist position on > nihilism > is that -- only people with self view/sense of self are subject to that > notion. > > TG > ======================= I do follow, I believe, what you say here, and I agree with it. I would only add, just to clarify, that there is a difference between the Buddha's emptiness perspective that there is nothing in any phenomena, elementary or compounded, that implies their being <<"things/entities" to be annihilated>> or that can enable phenomena to <>, on the one hand, and the perspective that there is, in every posible sense, from the outset, nothing whatsoever at all. It is the latter perspective, that I think of as nihilism. It is the diametric opposite of the extreme view called substantialism/realism. The perspective that conceives of self-existent "things/entities" that are subsequently destroyed I think of, not as nihilism, but as "annihilationism", a perverse hybrid of substantialist realism and nihilism. A Buddhist example of that would be a conceiving of dhammas that are real, self-existent entities having essential and non-contingent existential status one moment and being utterly zero the next. Such a perspective is the setting up & knocking down of fictions, and is not the middle-way view, but an annihilationistic one. The true middle-way perspective of the Buddha, the only perspective, IMO, that can account for impermanance, is neither substantialism, not nihilism, nor their hybrid offspring, annihilationism. With metta, Howard #65545 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:29 pm Subject: Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha nidive Hi Howard, > If there were nothing at all, there would indeed be no suffering - > there would be nothing. And that is nihilism. What else is nihilism? > But if there were no separate things to grasp at, no clinging, no > desire, no aversion, and no ignorance, there also would be no > suffering. Have I not said, from the cessation of ignorance in the here and now comes the cessation of the six internal sense bases in the future [after death/parinibbana]? If the above is not true and factual, then I accept your accusation that I speak of annihilationism. Regards, Swee Boon #65546 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:32 pm Subject: Re: Letter on Vipassana I, 1. philofillet Hi Nina > I appreciate the Dhammapada very much. What passage did you have in > mind, when you think that it is not about understanding of ultimate > realities? That is, if you like to discuss this. You do not need to > answer. Thanks for your understanding, Nina. I'm feeling too time-pressed for discussion these days, but always put my foot in my mouth, opening cans of worms, by making statements about Dhammapada, as I did, or an emphasis on sila etc. Of course there are paramattha dhammas at the root of all suttas, in all of the Buddha's teaching, and everything in the universe, for that matter. But it seems to me that in Dhammapada they are usually implicit rather than explicit the way they are in SN 35, for example. And that there is no need to make them explicit. For an example, see the first line of Chapter 12. I paraphrase from memory: "If one held oneself dear, one would be vigilant in all watches of the day and night." I personally don't see any need to draw out the dhammas that are implicit here. I'm content with the surface message, for now. When I reflect on suttas in SN 35, for example, it is all about paramattha dhammas presented in a very explicit way to help us develop understanding of them. There is a very good description of the different emphasis in different areas of the tipitaka in the general introduction to Bhikkhu Bodhi's Samyutta Nikaya anthology, pp. 32-34. I'm afraid I don't have time to type it out now, but it certainly encapsulates (?) what I was getting at. Different focuses/emphasisis for different people with different accumulated tendencies at different times. All very fluid. Such a rich wealth of wisdom in the tipitaka taught by the Buddha who could see into the minds of us all and understand that different people (or "people" if one prefers) need and can benefit from different teaching at different times. So while I can say I am right about certain points, I don't think I will be saying that you or Acharn Sujin or anyone else is wrong. We have different openings to the Dhamma at different times. For example, Acharn Sujin said "what good is it to know kusala from akusala if we do not know that all realities are not-self." I can say that this is a teaching that does me little good at this point in time, but I won't say it's wrong because I know that this is the kind of teaching that motivates you and inspires you (for example) to be such a kind, diligent, compassionate person. Phil p.s Matt, Andrew and Jon - will be back to you when I can. #65547 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... ken_aitch Hi all, Matt's formulation may have been idiosyncratic, I don't know - he may even choose to revise it. But I think it was right; a sotapanna does not kill because he knows there are no beings to be killed. We worldlings might like to think we would never kill, but the potential is always there. Who knows when the dreaded circumstances, in which killing appears to be the lesser of two evils, will arise? The sotapanna can be aware of the same conventional circumstances, but he will always know beyond doubt that there are no beings to be killed. So for him, that course of action will be ruled out. That is the difference between a good worldling and a sotapanna. Ken H #65548 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha nidive Hi TG, > IMO, Nihilism only applies if one has the view that there are > "things/entities" to be annihilated. As conditions are empty of > anything that can be identified as "them," what is there to be > annihilated? -- other than suffering. > As I see it, the idea of nihilism is an impossibility if right view > is present. Same applies to enternity. I believe the Buddhist > position on nihilism is that -- only people with self view/sense > of self are subject to that notion. Indeed this is correct. In the Buddha Dhamma, annihilationism is spoken of only in the context of self-identification views. For one with no self-identification views, having cast off views of eternalism and annihilationism, and having right view, there is only dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. Hard to see indeed is this sublime Dhamma. Regards, Swee Boon #65549 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... philofillet Hi Ken and all I don't have such strong opinions on this topic because I don't know much about sotapannas but the below sounds a bit convoluted. Isn't the main point that the sotapanna is no longer subject to dhammas that propel acts of killing, stealing etc? That the dhammas that propel killing have burned out, so to speak? What you say about the sotapanna knowing there are no beings is no doubt true, but it doesn't seem the most important reason that the sotapanna doesn't kill. Maybe I'm wrong, because there is not a "killing" dhamma that could burn out, and anger, lust and other "violent" (if you will) dhammas are not eliminated for the sotapanna as far as I recall. Or has the soptapanna eradicated extreme forms of anger and hatred? I guess he/she has. I forget. Anyways, that is my muddled contribution to this thread. Phil > The sotapanna can be aware of the same conventional circumstances, but > he will always know beyond doubt that there are no beings to be > killed. So for him, that course of action will be ruled out. That is > the difference between a good worldling and a sotapanna. #65550 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:04 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,116 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 116. When he is confused about the characteristics of formations, instead of apprehending their specific and general characteristics, he figures that formations are self, belong to a self, are lasting, pleasant, beautiful. ************************* 116. sa"nkhaaraana.m lakkha.ne vimuu.lho sa"nkhaaraana.m sabhaavalakkha.na.m saama~n~nalakkha.na~nca aga.nhanto sa"nkhaare attato attaniyato dhuvato sukhato subhato vikappeti. #65551 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:48 pm Subject: Re: Reconsidering Right Effort (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ...) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/22/06 5:56:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > I think the key question here is whether the effort being described is > effort that itself arises in a kusala mindstate, or is the effort that > leads to (i.e., that precedes) the arising of a (subsequent) kusala > mindstate, because if it is the latter then it would be effort arising > in an akusala mindstate. > > I'd be interested to hear your views on this. > > Jon > ===================== As I interpret the sutta now, the 4 right efforts constitute wholesome, intentional cultivating of certain (wholesome) propensities, and they would occur during kusala mindstates. Right effort occurs during wholesome mindstates, and it indirectly conditions future wholesome states by directly conditioning the intention/propensity for non-arising of akusala, abandoning of arisen akusala, arising of kusala, and furthering of already-arisen kusala. With metta, Howard #65552 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Ken) - In a message dated 11/22/06 8:14:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: > I don't have such strong opinions on this topic because I don't know > much about sotapannas but the below sounds a bit convoluted. Isn't the > main point that the sotapanna is no longer subject to dhammas that > propel acts of killing, stealing etc? That the dhammas that propel > killing have burned out, so to speak? What you say about the sotapanna > knowing there are no beings is no doubt true, but it doesn't seem the > most important reason that the sotapanna doesn't kill. > ====================== That is certainly my perspective, Phil. Moreover, I would suspect that a sotapanna, besides having abandoned a degree of akusala qualities has also strngthened such kusala qualities as metta, karuna, and mudita. With metta, Howard #65553 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha TGrand458@... In a message dated 11/22/2006 4:09:48 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Hi Howard > > IMO, Nihilism only applies if one has the view that there are > "things/entities" to be annihilated. As conditions are empty of anything > that can be > identified as "them," what is there to be annihilated? -- other than > suffering. > As I see it, the idea of nihilism is an impossibility if right view is > present. Same applies to enternity. I believe the Buddhist position on > nihilism > is that -- only people with self view/sense of self are subject to that > notion. > > TG > ======================= I do follow, I believe, what you say here, and I agree with it. I would only add, just to clarify, that there is a difference between the Buddha's emptiness perspective that there is nothing in any phenomena, elementary or compounded, that implies their being <<"things/entities" to be annihilated>> or that can enable phenomena to <>, on the one hand, and the perspective that there is, in every posible sense, from the outset, nothing whatsoever at all. It is the latter perspective, that I think of as nihilism. It is the diametric opposite of the extreme view called substantialism/substanti The perspective that conceives of self-existent "things/entities" that are subsequently destroyed I think of, not as nihilism, but as "annihilationism""annihilationism", a perverse hybrid of substantialist realism and example of that would be a conceiving of dhammas that are real, self-existent entities having essential and non-contingent existential status one moment and being utterly zero the next. Such a perspective is the setting up & knocking down of fictions, and is not the middle-way view, but an annihilationistic one. The true middle-way perspective of the Buddha, the only perspective, IMO, that can account for impermanance, is neither substantialism, not nihilism, nor their hybrid offspring, annihilationism. With metta, Howard Hi Howard Formations arise, and then utterly cease. They do not arise as "things unto themselves," but arise through conditional interaction...and as conditions are dynamic, they are continuously changing. The formations that come together at any one moment are continually in the process of disintegrating -- literally. I think there is even a Sutta where the Buddha is accused of being an "annihilationist" and he agrees, tongue and cheek, by saying he does endorse the annihilation of suffering, etc. (It would not surprise me if you agreed with all of this.) I do believe that when an arahat dies, suffering is ended completely for that former life continuum. Suffering that was once an aspect of that life continuum is annihilated, ended, extinguished. The formation of that former life continuum is annihilated, ended, extinguished. The Sutta (below) that referenced this topic is pointing out that the 6 sense bases completely cease and by their cessation comes the cessation of Dukkha. I have no problem calling this annihilation and I don't imply or project any philosophical ramifications to the term other than that a former condition no longer stands. In Buddhist terms, wisdom has annihilated ignorance/suffering. (Wisdom brings about the end of suffering.) Does that make sense? If there were no eye, would mental pain arise on account of what is > not seen? > > If there were no ear, would mental pain arise on account of what is > not heard? > > If there were no nose, would mental pain arise on account of what is > not smelled? > > If there were no tongue, would mental pain arise on account of what is > not tasted? > > If there were no body, would mental pain arise on account of what is > not touched? > > If there were no intellect, would mental pain arise on account of what > is not thought? > > If there were no six internal sense bases, would mental pain arise on > account of what is not sensed? > > Therefore from the cessation of the six internal sense bases comes the > cessation of this entire mass of mental pain. > > And how does the cessation of the six internal sense bases in the > future [after death/parinibbana] come about? By the very cessation of > ignorance in the here and now. TG #65554 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:17 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear All, I've not much relevant to say about siila but this: c: "71. The Blessed One thus showed those bhikkhus the maintenance of lovingkindness in being in its various aspects. And now, since lovingkindness is near to [wrong] view of self because it has creatures for its object, he therefore completed the teaching with the following stanza. Di.t.thi~n ca anupagamma [siilavaa dassanena sampanno Kaamesu vineyya gedha"m na hi jaatu gabbaseyya"m puna-r-eti.] 'But he that traffics not with views ['Is virtuous with perfected seeing 'Till, purged of greed for sense-desires, 'He will surely come no more to any womb']. He did this as a preventative against [their straying into] the thicket of [speculative] views..." The reason I appreciate reading in DSG is that I can read such as the above. I think the Dhamma is hard and deep and pristine. It is rare, in my limited experience, for the Dhamma to be considered as it is in its essence. Few, I think, for example, are interested in stripping away histrionic notions of metta, of seeing it as another wholesome dhamma arising and falling away; this is considered here. I know that a consideration of the Dhamma at this depth is not well appreciated in other circles. I totally appreciate it. Being such a beginner, with so little time to waste, I'm glad to have found my way to this ethereal space, where, if I work to keep up, I can learn so much. Thanks to all. Non-histrionically yours, Scott. #65555 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha upasaka_howard Hi, TG - I'm not 100% sure I understand what you are saying in the following. In any case, just to make myself clear: I have no trouble with the fact that phenomena degrade and then cease entirely. What I simply maintain is that they are not entities to begin with. They lack essence from the get-go, and if that were not so, their cessation would be impossible. I think we agree on this. As for whether there is absolutely nothing at all in any sense after the death of an arahant is unknown to me, but I doubt it. I also don't believe it is a "something" in any of the usual sense we have for that term. I do believe that nibbana is a reality, thoght not an entity. In any case, for the living arahant, neither presence nor absence makes one iota of difference as regards preference. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/22/06 9:33:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > > > Hi Howard > > Formations arise, and then utterly cease. They do not arise as "things > unto > themselves," but arise through conditional interaction...and as conditions > are dynamic, they are continuously changing. The formations that come > together at any one moment are continually in the process of disintegrating > -- > literally. I think there is even a Sutta where the Buddha is accused of > being an > "annihilationist" and he agrees, tongue and cheek, by saying he does > endorse > the annihilation of suffering, etc. (It would not surprise me if you > agreed > with all of this.) > > I do believe that when an arahat dies, suffering is ended completely for > that former life continuum. Suffering that was once an aspect of that life > > continuum is annihilated, ended, extinguished. The formation of that > former life > continuum is annihilated, ended, extinguished. > > The Sutta (below) that referenced this topic is pointing out that the 6 > sense bases completely cease and by their cessation comes the cessation of > Dukkha. I have no problem calling this annihilation and I don't imply or > project > any philosophical ramifications to the term other than that a former > condition > no longer stands. In Buddhist terms, wisdom has annihilated > ignorance/suffering. (Wisdom brings about the end of suffering.) Does > that make sense? > > If there were no eye, would mental pain arise on account of what is > >not seen? > > > >If there were no ear, would mental pain arise on account of what is > >not heard? > > > >If there were no nose, would mental pain arise on account of what is > >not smelled? > > > >If there were no tongue, would mental pain arise on account of what is > >not tasted? > > > >If there were no body, would mental pain arise on account of what is > >not touched? > > > >If there were no intellect, would mental pain arise on account of what > >is not thought? > > > >If there were no six internal sense bases, would mental pain arise on > >account of what is not sensed? > > > >Therefore from the cessation of the six internal sense bases comes the > >cessation of this entire mass of mental pain. > > > >And how does the cessation of the six internal sense bases in the > >future [after death/parinibbana] come about? By the very cessation of > >ignorance in the here and now. > > TG #65556 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:08 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... rjkjp1 Dear Scott, I like your post. Dhamma 101: "This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person" Visuddhimagga XVIII24 and "The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll"XVII31 But we foolish ones cannot see this, and so we imagine there is really is a world populated with other beings who we feel varying degress of affection/dislike/equanimity for. Like the Buddha said in Dhammapada: Verse 212. Affection begets sorrow, affection begets fear. For him who is free from affection there is no sorrow; how can there be fear for him? Verse 213. Endearment begets sorrow, endearment begets fear. For him who is free from endearment there is no sorrow; how can there be fear for him? In the Buddha's time a woman came to listen to the Dhamma. At that time her sons were soon to be executed. They had done no wrong but had lost the favor of the King. While listening she was told, "this son is now being led to the place where he dies> Now his head has being chopped off...The next son is being led to the execution area> Now.." and so on. She had no emotion about this and was intent on listening to Dhamma. It might seem strange that she wasn't at all bothered about losing her sons, but she was wise,an anagami. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear All, > > I've not much relevant to say about siila but this: > > c: "71. The Blessed One thus showed those bhikkhus the maintenance of > lovingkindness in being in its various aspects. And now, since > lovingkindness is near to [wrong] view of self because it has > creatures for its object, he therefore completed the teaching with the > following stanza. > > Di.t.thi~n ca anupagamma [siilavaa dassanena sampanno > Kaamesu vineyya gedha"m na hi jaatu gabbaseyya"m puna-r-eti.] > 'But he that traffics not with views > ['Is virtuous with perfected seeing > 'Till, purged of greed for sense-desires, > 'He will surely come no more to any womb']. > > He did this as a preventative against [their straying into] the > thicket of [speculative] views..." > > The reason I appreciate reading in DSG is that I can read such as the > above. > > I think the Dhamma is hard and deep and pristine. It is rare, in my > limited experience, for the Dhamma to be considered as it is in its > essence. > > Few, I think, for example, are interested in stripping away histrionic > notions of metta, of seeing it as another wholesome dhamma arising and > falling away; this is considered here. I know that a consideration of > the Dhamma at this depth is not well appreciated in other circles. I > totally appreciate it. > > #65557 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] doubt of a sotapanna lbidd2 Hi Matheesha and Nina, I agree, this is an interesting sutta. The logic of it seems to be, doubt is doubt about views and when views are recognized as views both views and doubt cease. But this apparently applies only to doubt about the undeclared questions (does the Tathagata exist, not exist, both, neither, after death?). I don't see how it could apply to doubt about the Dhamma. The Dhamma is declared, not undeclared. Why does that doubt cease? Is a question a doubt? Larry AN 7.51 "Because of the cessation of views, monk, uncertainty doesn't arise in an instructed disciple of the noble ones over the undeclared issues. The view-standpoint, 'The Tathagata exists after death,' the view-standpoint, 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death,' the view- standpoint, 'The Tathagata both does and doesn't exist after death,' the view-standpoint, 'The Tathagata neither does nor doesn't exist after death': The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern view, doesn't discern the origination of view, doesn't discern the cessation of view, doesn't discern the path of practice leading to the cessation of view, and so for him that view grows. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. But the instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns view, discerns the origination of view, discerns the cessation of view, discerns the path of practice leading to the cessation of view, and so for him that view ceases. He is freed from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs. He is freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress..." #65558 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 11/22/2006 8:32:40 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: As for whether there is absolutely nothing at all in any sense after the death of an arahant is unknown to me, but I doubt it. TG: Also to me but I don't doubt it. I suspect it but can't know for sure. The quotes at the bottom have some support for this line... I also don't believe it is a "something" in any of the usual sense we have for that term. I do believe that nibbana is a reality, thoght not an entity. In any case, for the living arahant, neither presence nor absence makes one iota of difference as regards preference. With metta, Howard “Where consciousness becomes established and comes to growth … I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.â€? … “Where consciousness does not become established and come to growth…I say that is without sorrow, anguish, and despair.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 600 - 601) “By the utter destruction of delight in existence, By the extinction of perception and consciousness, By the cessation and appeasement of feelings, It is thus, friend, that I know for beings – Emancipation, release, seclusion.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 90) The body disintegrated, perception ceased, All feelings became cool, Mental activities were calmed, And consciousness came to an end. (The Buddha . . . The Udana & The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) TG #65559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nilovg Hi Phil, Yes, he cannot commit any deed of violence or any other akusala kamma that could lead to rebirth in an unhappy plane. Right understanding leads to a high degree of guarding the sensedoors, of metta and karuna. He has a greater generosity with no trace of avarice, no jealousy. Nina. Op 23-nov-2006, om 2:02 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Or has the > soptapanna eradicated extreme forms of anger and hatred? I guess he/ > she > has #65560 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... ken_aitch Hi Phil, > I don't have such strong opinions on this topic because I don't know > much about sotapannas but the below sounds a bit convoluted. Isn't the > main point that the sotapanna is no longer subject to dhammas that > propel acts of killing, stealing etc? That the dhammas that propel > killing have burned out, so to speak? What you say about the sotapanna > knowing there are no beings is no doubt true, but it doesn't seem the > most important reason that the sotapanna doesn't kill. -------------------------- Like you, I am having trouble remembering what I have learnt about sotapannas. What, for example, are the dhammas that they are no longer subject to? I know they include samma-ditthi (wrong view) vicikiccha (doubt) and issa (envy). And, yes, I remember that those dhammas have been "burned out" by the supramundane path factors. I think it is true to say that a sotapanna cannot abstain from certain misdeeds that ordinary mortals can abstain from. There are no more conditions for killing, lying and stealing, and so there can be no more abstention from them. However, of the eight path factors that burn conditions out, samma-ditthi is *the forerunner*. In case you haven't already guessed, that is why I am so adamant in my convoluted arguments. :-) Not only is there a suggestion that right view is not the forerunner (as is common in 'formal practice' debates), there also seems to be a suggestion that right view can sometimes be wrong. Namely, when it is the reason a sotapanna does not kill, lie or steal. Ken H #65561 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:31 pm Subject: The Buddha on Faith (Saddha)! bhikkhu5 Friends: What did Buddha said about Faith (Saddha)? The Blessed Buddha once said: And even though a disciple of the Noble Ones lives off lumps of alms food and wears rag-robes, still, because he is endowed with four qualities, then he is freed from hell, freed from the animal womb, freed from the realm of hungry ghosts, freed from all the plane of pain & deprivation, the bad destinations, the lower realms. And what are the four? There is the case where the disciple of the Noble Ones is endowed with verified faith, confidence & conviction in the Awakened Buddha like this: Worthy, honourable and perfectly self-Enlightened is the Buddha! Fully consummated in knowledge and behaviour, totally transcended, expert in all dimensions, knower of all worlds, unsurpassable trainer of those who can be tamed, both teacher and guide of gods as well as of humans, blessed, exalted, awakened and enlightened is the Buddha !!! He/she is endowed with verified faith, confidence, & conviction in the Dhamma like this: Perfectly formulated is this Buddha-Dhamma, visible right here and now, immediately effective, timeless, inviting each and everyone to come and see for themselves, inspect, examine and verify. Leading each and everyone through progress towards perfection. Directly observable, experiencable and realizable by each intelligence... He/she is endowed with verified faith, confidence, & conviction in the Noble Sangha like this: Perfectly training is this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples: Training the right way, the true way, the good way, the direct way! Therefore do these 8 kinds of individuals, the four Noble pairs, deserve both gifts, grants sacrifice, offerings, hospitality and reverential salutation even with joined palms, since this Noble Sangha community of the Buddha's Noble disciples, is an unsurpassable and forever unsurpassed field of merit, in this world, for this world, to honour, respect, support, give to and protect. He/she is endowed with long-term morality, which are dear to the Noble Ones: Moral purity that is untorn, unbroken, unspotted, and impeccable, liberating, praised by the wise, immaculate, leading to concentration. SN 55.1 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn55/sn55.001.than.html For a lay person, there are these five rewards of faith, confidence & conviction Which five? 1: When truly good people in the world show compassion, they will first show compassion to people of faith, confidence & conviction, and not to people lacking in faith, confidence & conviction... 2: When visiting, they visit people of faith, confidence & conviction, and not people without faith, confidence & conviction... 3: When accepting gifts, they first accept gifts from people with faith, confidence & conviction, & not from people lacking faith, confidence & conviction. 4: When teaching the Dhamma, they first teach those with faith, confidence & conviction, & not those without faith, confidence & conviction . 5: A person of faith, confidence & conviction , on the break-up of the body, after death, will arise in a good destination, the heavenly world. For a lay person, these are the five certain rewards of faith, confidence & conviction. AN 5:38 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.038.than.html And what is the individual released through faith, confidence & conviction ? There is the case where a certain individual does not dwell immersed in those peaceful states that transcend all form, but having understood, some of his mental fermentations are ended, and his faith, confidence & conviction in the Tathagata is settled, rooted, and established. This is called an individual who is released through faith, confidence & conviction. Regarding this monk, I say that he has still a task to do. Why is that? Perhaps this Venerable, when staying at suitable places, associating with admirable friends, while balancing his mental abilities, will reach & dwell in the supreme goal of Noble life for which good men rightly go forth from home into homelessness, directly realizing it for himself right here & now. Envisioning this fruit of further effort for this monk, I say that he has a task to do. MN 70 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html Any female disciple of the Noble Ones who grows by these 5 types of growth grows a Noble growth, and thereby gets a handle on what is essential, and what is excellent. Which five? She grows in terms of Faith... She grows in terms of Morality... She grows in terms of Learning... She grows in terms of Generosity... She grows in terms of Understanding.... Growing by these five types of growth, any female disciple of the Noble Ones grows a Noble growth, and thereby gets hold on what is really essential, and what indeed is excellent. Growing in faith, morality, learning, generosity, & understanding, a virtuous female lay disciple such as this takes hold of the essence within herself. SN 37.34 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_Three_Jewels.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #65562 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] doubt of a sotapanna nilovg Hi Larry, In other suttas we read about his unshakable confidence in the Triple Gem, thus confidence that cannot be shaken by diffidence. He has no doubt about paramattha dhammas, about nama and rupa, because he has developed right understanding of them. The views about the Buddha after his passing away stem among others from eternity belief and annihilation belief. The sotaapanna can still be sad and attached to persons. But, as Howard writes: This reminds me of Rob K's post about the anagaami which may at first sound bizarre, but when we consider more can be understood under the right perspective. Now his head has being chopped off...The next son is being led to the execution area> Now.." and so on. She had no emotion about this and was intent on listening to Dhamma. It might seem strange that she wasn't at all bothered about losing her sons, but she was wise,an anagami..> How do we not fall off the tightrope, keeping the middle? She was listening to the Dhamma and developing right understanding, and this conditioned a high degree of metta, karuna and upekkha. She could cope with the most contrarious events one could imagine. True compassion is devoid of aversion and sadness. With tears one cannot help anybody nor can one help oneself. Evenmindedness, upekkha, here: tatramajjhattataa, is necessary at all times. She realized that what happened to her sons was the result of kamma, that everyone is the heir of his own kamma. That is the Brahmavihaara of upekkha. That event could not be prevented. What else could she do but developing right understanding so that eventually she would reach the end of dukkha. This contains also a lesson for us. When something terrible happens, it should be seen in the right way: kamma must produce its result when it is the right time. By aversion we cannot change the events that have happened already. Understanding is the only way to cope with them. I do realize that this is easily said, but hard to follow up when we face the facts of life. Nina. Op 23-nov-2006, om 5:35 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > The logic of it seems to be, > doubt is doubt about views and when views are recognized as views both > views and doubt cease. But this apparently applies only to doubt about > the undeclared questions (does the Tathagata exist, not exist, both, > neither, after death?). I don't see how it could apply to doubt about > the Dhamma. The Dhamma is declared, not undeclared. Why does that > doubt > cease? Is a question a doubt? #65563 From: "matt roke" Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:18 am Subject: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling mattroke Dear Howard, Ken H, Sukin, Jon and all, I must admit that I am not the best at putting thoughts on paper, however Ken H, Sukin and Jon did seem to understand my point. Howard has different accumulations so he will probably not agree with what has been said or what I will now say in order to explain more clearly the point I was trying to make. =========================================== =========================================== >Matt: They do not steal an item that they find attractive because they know >that there is no item; there are only moments of visible object, sound and >touch etc. They know that they cannot own a moment of seeing or any other >dhamma moment that does not stay. They do not lie or kill because there is >no one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing. >Howard: What I took exception to was taking the merely conventional >existence of objects to be stolen or people to be killed as the moral >reason for not stealing and not killing. Where it is said "They do not lie >or kill because there is no one to be protected and no one who will gain by >lying or killing," it is the "because" I find repugnant! Lying and stealing >and killing are WRONG and HURTFUL, and those facts constitute the proper >moral reason for not engaging in these activities. >Sukin: You thought that Matt meant that `"other people" don't exist"', a >position you feared, as leaning towards being indifferent and careless in >one's interaction with others. What I think in fact he was pointing to was >the Sotapana's consideration of "own self" as being non-existent. In which >case, what Matt is saying is that the Sotapana does not kill even "under >threat" of life, since there is no `self' to protect. Likewise, there is >never a need to lie, even at gun point, for the same reason. I think if you >had considered this part; "and no one who will gain by lying or killing " >of his statement more carefully, you might have come to a different >Howard: Matt had said "They do not lie or kill because there is no one to >be protected and no one who will gain by lying or killing." That "no one to >be protected" is the person to be lied to or killed. The "no one who will >gain by lying or killing" is the perpetrator. >Jon: I don't want to second-guess Matt's reasoning here but I think the >question he is addressing is the question of why sotapannas are *incapable >of* killing or stealing, not why they refrain (like you or I do) from doing >so. . .The factors at play in refraining from a given form of akusala are >different from those at play in one who no longer has any tendency towards >that form of akusala. . . To expand on that distinction a little, the citta >that *refrains from* akusala does not arise in the arahant; he no longer >has any latent tendency for akusala and thus is *incapable of* performing >any akusala. The question of restraint simply does not arise for him. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- REGARDING STEALING: Worldlings steal because there is a desire to have something that belongs to someone else or they may steal to correct what they think is an injustice (i.e. Robin Hood). Sotapannas can’t steal because they no longer take the concept of owning something to be real, they clearly see that there are only dhammas and those dhammas do not stay, so there is nothing that can be owned or stolen. When a sotapanna observes a piece of fine jewelry they do not take the concept of that jewelry to be a reality. They know that what is real are the many moments of visible object, touch and thinking that arise and fall away and create a concept of jewelry. They may have lobha for the visible object or the concept of jewelry because of accumulations, nevertheless there are no conditions for them to steal the item because they know that dhammas do not stay, thus they can’t be possessed or taken. REGARDING LYING: I said “they (sotapannas) do not lie because there is no one to be protected and no one who will gain by lying.” Worldlings lie because they fear that they will be blamed or they fear the loss of something they cherish or they think there is something to be gained. Sotapannas understand that there is no self, so they do not lie because there is no fear of blame. And because they know that dhammas do not stay, there is nothing to be lost and nothing to be gained. REGARDING KILLING: I said “they (sotapannas) do not kill because there is no one to be protected and no one who will gain by killing.” Worldlings kill to protect themselves, for revenge for things done to them or because there is something to gain from another person’s death. Sotapannas understand that there is no self, so they will not kill in order to protect themselves and they do not desire revenge because there is nothing that can be done to them. And because they know that dhammas do not stay and there is nothing to be gained, they will not kill for that purpose. REGARDING IMMORALITY: All immoral deeds are done for “self” or because of “self”. As long as there is lobha and dosa and a concept of “self” there are conditions for immorality. Only when there has been insight into the true nature of dhammas as being impermanent, dukkha and no self, can there never again be wrong view or the doing of immoral actions (for up to seven lifetimes for sotapannas). It is this understanding of “no self” and the lack of unwholesome states that are conditioned by a concept of self that makes it possible for sotapannas to have such compassion and friendship to others. =========================================== =========================================== >Howard: As far as I'm concerned, cerebral nonexistence theorizing is no >substitute for the moral sense, and basing one's morality on it is quite >worrisome. Such "nonexistence" could be quite easily used for *excusing* >immoral actions just as handily! (Since there is "no one to be killed," it >doesn't matter if murder occurs.) Taking the notion of nonexistence to the >nihilist extreme actually leads to amorallity and an excuse for immorality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Many Buddhists are taught that there is “no self” and yet I am not aware of any large number of people out and about murdering others because there is “no one to be killed”, or using this belief as an excuse to be immoral. On the other hand worldlings who have a very strong belief in self have of late been very successfully at achieving new extremes of immorality. The Buddha made it clear that belief in self is wrong view. Are you implying that the Buddha’s teaching of “no self” will lead to immorality and therefore it is wrong? =========================================== =========================================== >Howard: Let me make it brief, Ken. Matt said that the reason sotapannas >don't kill is that there are really no people existing to be killed. I >consider that an absurdity, and a moral horror story. I don't want to know >a person, ariyan or not, for whom that is the reason they don't kill. My >God! I'm stunned that you cannot see the absurdity and moral perversity of >this! >The silence on this matter concerns me. I worry about silence on matters of >morality. It is important to me to see what perspectives you folks here on >DSG have on this matter. It's very important to me. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attachment to the concept of morality seems to have caused you to be disturbed, stunned, concerned, worried, appalled and even made you express yourself in a disturbing and frustrated manner. In other words, attachment to kusala has conditioned akusala. One can cling to concepts (which are often just speculative views) or have more understanding of the dhammas that create concepts. The latter, I believe, conditions less attachment to views and less aversion towards others for not agreeing with one’s beliefs. =========================================== =========================================== >Howard: Lying and stealing and killing are WRONG and HURTFUL, and those >facts constitute the proper moral reason for not engaging in these >activities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wanting to be good and trying to be good does not necessarily make one a good person. I presume that you believe that kusala is good and that you try to be a good person who does not do things that are hurtful. And yet you will berate people and write sarcastic one-liners (while signing off with the word metta) because their opinion is different to yours. This, I understand, is conceit; because one thinks they are right and the others are wrong. It is attachment; because one takes the concepts to be theirs and they think that what they have written is clever. And it is dosa; because there is intention to hurt. Metta on the other hand is about friendship and kindness, and I would thing that if metta arose when you wrote that word then you would not send the HURTFUL comments. This is not a criticism of your actions, as that would be like the pot calling the kettle black. I am simply making the point that no matter how much we may WANT to be good or TRY to be good, and not do what is hurtful, our attachment to the concept of a self conditions akusala, which can prevent us from being that good person we may wish to be. Matt #65564 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:28 am Subject: Re: doubt of a sotaapanna. matheesha333 Hi Nina, I am so glad to see you again. An hour ago I was just thinking about > it how your lecture was in London, It went well, Nina. There were many questions as well. I will post a transcript - I hope someone might find it useful. My absence has been due to accidentally noticing how many emails I have posted to this group. It was over a 1000. I must have spent 20mins to 1hr if not more on each one. I also noticed I was developing a theoretical/conceptual framework of buddhism and begining to think it was real understanding which shook me a bit. I also noted that I was giving rise to more akusala due to debates on this group. What I gained in terms of understanding has been limited as well. So I guess my involvement will possibly be limited due to these reasons. I will pop in now and again though. :) with metta Matheesha #65565 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:07 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 588- The Stages of Insight(j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd We may still doubt whether there is rebirth after the dying consciousness. If the citta at this moment is clearly understood as a conditioned reality there will also be more understanding about death and rebirth. Each citta which arises now is succeeded by the next one. This also happens at the last moment of our life: the dying-consciousness has to be succeeded by the rebirthconsciousness which is the first citta of the next life. So long as there are conditions for it there will be the arising of nåma and rúpa again and again. Doubts about past life, present life and future life cannot be overcome by theoretical understanding of the conditions for the arising of nåma and rúpa, it can only be overcome by the direct understanding of realities and their conditions. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65566 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:33 am Subject: Reconsidering Right Effort (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ...) scottduncan2 Dear Howard and Jon, From the CSCD, the Paali: "Katamo ca, bhikkhave, sammaavaayaamo? Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu anuppannaana.m paapakaana.m akusulaana.m dhammaana.m anuppaadaaya chanda.m janeti vaayamati viriya.m aarabhati citta.m paga.nhaati padahati, uppannaana.m paapkaana.m akusalana.m dhammaana.m pahaanaaya chanda.m janeti...pe...anuppanhaana.m kusalana.m dhammaana.m uppaadaaya chanda.m janeti...pe...uppannaana.m kusalaana.m dhammaana.m .thitiyaa asammosaaya bhiyyobhaavaaya vepullaaya bhaavanaaya paaripuuriyaa chanda.m janeti vaayamati viriya.m aavabhati citta.m paagganhaati padahati - aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave, sammaavaayamo." The functional words seem to be: 'chanda.m' 'viriya.m' 'vaayamati' 'bhiyyobhaavaaya' 'padahati' I also note that what Bhikkhu Bodhi renders as 'states' is 'dhammaana.m'. I wonder if 'makes an effort' signifies that effort arises? I'm out of time to carry on but, for what its worth, and for the Paali scholars... Scott. #65567 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:13 am Subject: Re: doubt of a sotapanna nidive Hi Larry, Matheesha and Nina, > But this apparently applies only to doubt about the undeclared > questions (does the Tathagata exist, not exist, both, neither, > after death?). I don't see how it could apply to doubt about > the Dhamma. The Dhamma is declared, not undeclared. Why does that > doubt cease? Is a question a doubt? I think the core essence of doubt/uncertainty is the latent doubt/ uncertainty with regard to the existence of nibbana. Until we have had a glimpse of nibbana, we can only take the existence of nibbana on faith. When we have seen for ourselves the truth and reality of nibbana, all latent doubts/uncertainty with regard to its existence also ceases. That's also when all latent views with regard to the undeclared questions cease forever, set never to arise again in the future. Regards, Swee Boon #65568 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:51 am Subject: Cessation as Final Finality nidive Hi All, Some people do wonder excessively thus: Is there anything at all after the death of an arahant? Or is there nothing at all after the death of an arahant? These are questions and 'amazing wonders' unconnected with the Middle Path. The Buddha teaches only dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. With the remainderless cessation of the six internal sense bases, that very remainderless cessation itself is the final finality. To wonder of a something or a nothing after that final finality is a complication. And it could be the case that an ignorant person from that complication of a wonder of nothing, imagines an imagined annihilation, causing an obstruction for himself. Regards, Swee Boon #65569 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:38 am Subject: Some More on Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) upasaka_howard Hi, again, Jon - You had asked me about guarding the senses, and I really couldn't get what you were aiming at. So, I've looked back at the recent history of our conversations, and saw that this began with your writing the following: > But I think that what was unique to the Buddha's teaching, being its > very essence, is very much to the point when considering exactly what > the Buddha said elsewhere in the teachings, for example about 'stamping > out akusala like a grass fire'. Did the Buddha urge 'active opposition > to akusala states', as you suggest, or did he urge the development of > kusala of all kinds on any occasion (I think you'd agree that the two > are not the same)? > I then replied to that with "He urged both." I realize now how you must have understood this reply, and that that probably led to your subsequent questions. Let me comment as follows: The Buddha DID urge "stamping out akusala like a grass fire." This, however, I take to be a conventional process, involving billions of mindstates. Part of the process involves heightened attention and vigilance so that one will not miss the sort of states, wholesome and unwholesome, that are typical at a given time. Generally, a feature, such as anger, will repeat for a long stretch. During intervening wholesome states, cutting short such a train of unwholesomeness is possible. Likewise, the sustaining and furthering of kusala, and so on. Right effort is a conventional process, and not a matter of a single instantaneous action. Much of the right-effort endeavors amount to advance cultivation, as I described in my last post. That's the thrust of the sutta SN 45.8, it seems. With metta, Howard #65570 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Matt - In a message dated 11/23/06 5:29:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, mattroke@... writes: > REGARDING STEALING: > > Worldlings steal because there is a desire to have something that belongs to > > someone else or they may steal to correct what they think is an injustice > (i.e. Robin Hood). --------------------------------------- Howard: Often they steal simple because they *want* the item, and they don't care, or not sufficiently, about the other person's rights and welfare for that to prevent them from stealing. Believing that there really IS no other person would be a convenient excuse for the philosophically minded criminal. --------------------------------------- > > Sotapannas can’t steal because they no longer take the concept of owning > something to be real, they clearly see that there are only dhammas and those > > dhammas do not stay, so there is nothing that can be owned or stolen. ------------------------------------ Howard: I think that it is because they cannot tolerate causing harm or acting wrongly. They presumably don't take food as "real" either, but they DO eat, don't they? ------------------------------------ > > When a sotapanna observes a piece of fine jewelry they do not take the > concept of that jewelry to be a reality. They know that what is real are the > > many moments of visible object, touch and thinking that arise and fall away > and create a concept of jewelry. They may have lobha for the visible object > or the concept of jewelry because of accumulations, nevertheless there are > no conditions for them to steal the item because they know that dhammas do > not stay, thus they can’t be possessed or taken. > > REGARDING LYING: > > I said “they (sotapannas) do not lie because there is no one to be protected > > and no one who will gain by lying.â€? > > Worldlings lie because they fear that they will be blamed or they fear the > loss of something they cherish or they think there is something to be > gained. > > Sotapannas understand that there is no self, so they do not lie because > there is no fear of blame. And because they know that dhammas do not stay, > there is nothing to be lost and nothing to be gained. ------------------------------------- Howard: Not having self-view is still a far cry from lacking any sense of self. Stream enterers still have craving. ------------------------------------- > > REGARDING KILLING: > > I said “they (sotapannas) do not kill because there is no one to be > protected and no one who will gain by killing.â€? > > Worldlings kill to protect themselves, for revenge for things done to them > or because there is something to gain from another person’s death. > > Sotapannas understand that there is no self, so they will not kill in order > to protect themselves and they do not desire revenge because there is > nothing that can be done to them. And because they know that dhammas do not > stay and there is nothing to be gained, they will not kill for that purpose. > > REGARDING IMMORALITY: > > All immoral deeds are done for “selfâ€? or because of “selfâ€?. As long as > there > is lobha and dosa and a concept of “selfâ€? there are conditions for > immorality. Only when there has been insight into the true nature of dhammas > > as being impermanent, dukkha and no self, can there never again be wrong > view or the doing of immoral actions (for up to seven lifetimes for > sotapannas). > > It is this understanding of “no selfâ€? and the lack of unwholesome states > that are conditioned by a concept of self that makes it possible for > sotapannas to have such compassion and friendship to others. > > =========================================== > =========================================== > > >Howard: As far as I'm concerned, cerebral nonexistence theorizing is no > >substitute for the moral sense, and basing one's morality on it is quite > >worrisome. Such "nonexistence" could be quite easily used for *excusing* > >immoral actions just as handily! (Since there is "no one to be killed," it > >doesn't matter if murder occurs.) Taking the notion of nonexistence to the > >nihilist extreme actually leads to amorallity and an excuse for immorality. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Many Buddhists are taught that there is “no selfâ€? and yet I am not aware of > > any large number of people out and about murdering others because there is > “no one to be killedâ€?, or using this belief as an excuse to be immoral. On > the other hand worldlings who have a very strong belief in self have of late > > been very successfully at achieving new extremes of immorality. > > The Buddha made it clear that belief in self is wrong view. Are you implying > > that the Buddha’s teaching of “no selfâ€? will lead to immorality and > therefore it is wrong? > > =========================================== > =========================================== > > >Howard: Let me make it brief, Ken. Matt said that the reason sotapannas > >don't kill is that there are really no people existing to be killed. I > >consider that an absurdity, and a moral horror story. I don't want to know > >a person, ariyan or not, for whom that is the reason they don't kill. My > >God! I'm stunned that you cannot see the absurdity and moral perversity of > >this! > > >The silence on this matter concerns me. I worry about silence on matters of > > >morality. It is important to me to see what perspectives you folks here on > >DSG have on this matter. It's very important to me. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Attachment to the concept of morality seems to have caused you to be > disturbed, stunned, concerned, worried, appalled and even made you express > yourself in a disturbing and frustrated manner. In other words, attachment > to kusala has conditioned akusala. > > One can cling to concepts (which are often just speculative views) or have > more understanding of the dhammas that create concepts. The latter, I > believe, conditions less attachment to views and less aversion towards > others for not agreeing with one’s beliefs. > > =========================================== > =========================================== > > >Howard: Lying and stealing and killing are WRONG and HURTFUL, and those > >facts constitute the proper moral reason for not engaging in these > >activities. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Wanting to be good and trying to be good does not necessarily make one a > good person. > ------------------------------------ Howard: I don't care about *wanting* to be good, something which sounds self-serving anyway. I care about *being* good because one don't for the world want to cause pain! I'm sorry that my post was hurtful to you. -------------------------------------- I presume that you believe that kusala is good and that you try > > to be a good person who does not do things that are hurtful. And yet you > will berate people and write sarcastic one-liners (while signing off with > the word metta) because their opinion is different to yours. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, Matt. I regret any sarcasm I might have used in writing to you, though I don't recall doing so. I nonetheless take exception to your ethics views, and I think I have a right to comment on that. I am very concerned about what I consider a clinging to view leading to views in the moral sphere that are based on ontological theories instead of kindness. I do *not* claim, nor have I, that you are anything other than a personally kind and moral person. It is your views I've been discussing, not "you". ------------------------------------- This, I > > understand, is conceit; because one thinks they are right and the others are > > wrong. It is attachment; because one takes the concepts to be theirs and > they think that what they have written is clever. And it is dosa; because > there is intention to hurt. Metta on the other hand is about friendship and > kindness, and I would thing that if metta arose when you wrote that word > then you would not send the HURTFUL comments. > > This is not a criticism of your actions, as that would be like the pot > calling the kettle black. I am simply making the point that no matter how > much we may WANT to be good or TRY to be good, and not do what is hurtful, > our attachment to the concept of a self conditions akusala, which can > prevent us from being that good person we may wish to be. ---------------------------------------- Howard: It seems that you think it is improper of me to take exception to a person's views should that person be upset by my doing so. That makes no sense to me. It would require silence as the response to whatever one disagrees with. If I wasn't soft enough in my original post to you on this subject, if I should have used gentler language, I apologize for not having done so. It was not my intention to hurt you, and I regret that you were upset. ---------------------------------------- > > Matt > =================== With metta, Howard #65571 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cessation as Final Finality upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - The following is very good, Swee Boon! Very calming, very edifying, and very important. Truly excellent! Thank you. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/23/06 10:02:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi All, Some people do wonder excessively thus:> > > Is there anything at all after the death of an arahant? > Or is there nothing at all after the death of an arahant? > > These are questions and 'amazing wonders' unconnected with the Middle > Path. > > The Buddha teaches only dukkha and the cessation of dukkha. > > With the remainderless cessation of the six internal sense bases, that > very remainderless cessation itself is the final finality. > > To wonder of a something or a nothing after that final finality is a > complication. > > And it could be the case that an ignorant person from that > complication of a wonder of nothing, imagines an imagined > annihilation, causing an obstruction for himself. > > Regards, > Swee Boon > #65572 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha upasaka_howard Hi again, TG - In a message dated 11/23/06 1:44:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > “Where consciousness becomes established and comes to growth … I say that > > is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.â€? … “Where consciousness > does > not become established and come to growth…I say that is without sorrow, > anguish, and despair.â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 600 - 601) > “By the utter destruction of delight in existence, > By the extinction of perception and consciousness, > By the cessation and appeasement of feelings, > It is thus, friend, that I know for beings – > Emancipation, release, seclusion.â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 90) > The body disintegrated, perception ceased, > All feelings became cool, > Mental activities were calmed, > And consciousness came to an end. > (The Buddha . . . The Udana &The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) > ====================== I think it is possible to understand the foregoing with 'vi~n~nana' referring to defiled dualistic, subject-object consciousness (as I understand it in dependent origination.) Thanissaro Bhikkhu, whom almost no one here likes (LOL!), has written "There is also a type of consciousness that lies outside of the khandhas — called consciousness without feature (viññanam anidassanam) — which is not related to the six senses at all." I conceive of viññanam anidassanam as undefiled, non-dual awareness of nibbana, involving neither subject nor object. I don't think that this is included under the term 'vi~n~nana' in the above-quoted material referring to cessation of consciousness. Look at the very first quote above: “Where consciousness becomes established and comes to growth … I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.â€? … “Where consciousness does not become established and come to growth…I say that is without sorrow, anguish, and despair.â€? Compare that unestablished consciousness with the following item from the Kevatta Sutta: Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end? "'And the answer to that is:Consciousness without feature,1 without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here brought to an end.'" Also, from Ud 8.1, there is the following: "There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support. Just this is the end of suffering." I believe that this base, the non-dual reality pointed to in each of the foregoing is the same as is referred to when the Buddha says "Where consciousness does not become established and come to growth…I say that is without sorrow, anguish, and despair." in the material you quote. Consciousness without a footing, consciousness without feature, consciousness withoug support, and unestablished consciousness are one and the same, I think. These are all terms pointing to the unconditioned. With metta, Howard #65573 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:34 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 130. nilovg Dear friends, It is useful to become familiar with different classifications of realities, such as the classification by way of kicca, function, åramma.na, object, dvåra, doorway, vatthu, physical base, åyatana, sensefield, and other classifications. In this way we will have a clearer understanding of citta and of the conditions for its arising. We should, however, remember that this kind of understanding is not yet the wisdom which eradicates lobha, dosa and moha. In the Kindred Sayings (III, Khandha-vagga, Kindred Sayings about Rådha, chapter I, §4, To be understood) we read: At Såvatthí... As the venerable Rådha thus sat at one side the Exalted One addressed him thus:-- ``I will show you the things to be understood, and the understanding, and the person who has understood. Do you listen to it.'' The Exalted One thus spoke: ``And what, Rådha, are the things to be understood? Body, Rådha, is a thing to be understood; so is feeling, perception, the activities (saòkhårakkhandha). Consciousness is a thing to be understood. These, Rådha, are the things to be understood. And what, Rådha, is understanding? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of ignorance,--this, Radhå, is called `understanding'. And who, Rådha, is the person who has understood? `Worthy', should he be called, that venerable one of such and such a name, of such and such a clan:--that, Rådha, is the meaning of `the person who has understood'.`` Sometimes the Buddha reminded people of the purpose of the teachings in a longer discourse, sometimes in a shorter discourse, but one has to be often reminded of the goal. What is the purpose of understanding if it does not lead to the eradication of defilements? ------- Nina. #65574 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:37 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana I, 3. nilovg Dear friends, The gradual development of understanding is in the scriptures (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Sevens, Ch VII, par. 7) compared to the wearing out of a knife handle which one holds each day. However, it wears out so slowly that one cannot see its wearing away. Jonothan remarked that if one's practice is right one should see some progress. He found that there was no sati while working in his office. The world of work seems to be different from the world of Dhamma. He thought that being under stress was not a good condition for sati. One should be in the right mood and have some leisure time. Khun Sujin answered that this is only thinking. One should know the difference between a moment of experiencing a reality and thinking. Only through satipaììhåna one can know the difference. This is a good reminder. We are so involved in our thoughts about having sati, finding ways to have more, but what is there right at that moment? Only a nåma which thinks. When we realize this, the infatuation is gone, no more worry about sati. Khun Sujin said: “Do not think of the past or the future, just be aware. Realities appear, why do you have to move away from them. That is not the way to understand this moment. There is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or thinking, no matter whether one is working or not. If sati does not arise often it is because there are not enough conditions for it. Does one just want to have it? Develop it!“ If one has no understanding of cittas which experience objects through the six doors one does not know how to apply Khun Sujin's words, "develop sati now". Time and again objects such as visible object, sound or tangible object are appearing. They can only appear because there is citta which experiences them. Did we consider this enough? There may be sound but if hearing-consciousness does not arise sound is not an object which is experienced, sound does not appear. We believe that we see the world of people and different things, but there is only citta which thinks about what has appeared to seeing. Seeing does not occur at the same time as thinking. Seeing experiences visible object which has impinged on the eyesense, it does not pay attention to shape and form. However, seeing conditions thinking of shape and form, of defining them as people and different things. Khun Sujin writes in her book "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas": “Since cittas succeed one another very rapidly, it seems that there is the world which does not disintegrate, the world which is lasting and which is full of beings and many different things. In reality the world lasts just for one moment and then it falls away.” ******** Nina. #65575 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter on Vipassana I, 1. nilovg Hi Phil, I read it and it is a good explanation about what is emphasized in different parts of the suttanta. Interesting what he says about the Gradual Sayings that is more directed to laypeople living in the world. Makes me think of Howard's walking on a tightrope. Just putting a question mark to his remark about the Abhidhamma being technical. Ultimate realities are the objects of vipassana and Abhidhamma and vipassana go together, they should not be separated. True that Sam. IV is very sober. Non histrionical, pristine. Nina. Op 23-nov-2006, om 1:32 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > There is a very good description of the different emphasis in > different areas of the tipitaka in the general introduction to > Bhikkhu Bodhi's Samyutta Nikaya anthology, pp. 32-34. #65576 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: doubt of a sotaapanna. nilovg Hi Matheesha, But we do not count Emails, nor should we mind how many or how little. Let it come, and we do not mind the number. No, no, they are not giving rise to akusala. It is good to hear different points of view, how could that be offensive. I found your posts interesting, and you brought your points in a careful way. Anyway, I always enjoyed corresponding with you. As to taking theoretical understanding for real understanding, we all have to cope with that. When still a worldling we may feel unsure, it is not easy and we have to be very careful. As to the transcript of your lecture, it is best if you cut it up in small parts, then more people will read it. Hoping that you pop in often and that you find some posts here useful, Nina. Op 23-nov-2006, om 12:28 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > noticing how many emails I > have posted to this group. It was over a 1000. I must have spent > 20mins to 1hr if not more on each one. I also noticed I was > developing a theoretical/conceptual framework of buddhism and > begining to think it was real understanding which shook me a bit. I > also noted that I was giving rise to more akusala due to debates on > this group. What I gained in terms of understanding has been limited > as well. So I guess my involvement will possibly be limited due to > these reasons. I will pop in now and again though. :) #65577 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha nilovg Hi Howard, I just recall a very clear post of Suan where he explained this term. Here vi~n~naa.na.m does not refer to citta but to what is known. The whole meaning is different from what one would think at first sight. Nibbaana is not referred to as vi~n`naa.na. Perhaps someone else can retrieve this post? I am not good at this. Nina. Op 23-nov-2006, om 18:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There is also a type of consciousness that lies outside of the > khandhas — > called consciousness without feature (viññanam anidassanam) #65578 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:52 am Subject: Re: Reconsidering Right Effort (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ...) nilovg Dear Scott, thank you for the Pali. I know that often dhamma is translated as state. Not necessary, we have many words we can choose, like: good quality, gu.na. and others. I like the repetition of chanda.m janeti. Chanda is necssary to accomplish what one strives after. Makes an effort does not have enough impetus to me. Chanda is also translated as zeal, and I quote from Kh sujin's perfection of energy, where you find this term: < The Commentary speaks further on about effort which has developed to the degree of the enlightenment factor of viriya (sambhojjhanga), one of the factors pertaining to the realization of the four noble Truths. The Commentary uses the Påli term viriyårambha. Årambha can mean beginning, attempt or effort. Viriyårambha is viriya cetasika, it is the putting forth of energy, such as effort to apply oneself to the Buddha’s teachings. We read further on about the characteristic of energy which should be developed: “Effort is called ‘årambha’ because it is striving. The term viriyårambha renders the characteristic of that kind of striving. What kind of striving? It is striving by way of escaping from idleness. Onward effort is so called by virtue of reaching a higher and higher state. Exertion is so called by virtue of rising up and keeping going. Endeavour is so called by virtue of special exertion; zeal, of being zealous; vigour, of firmness; fortitude, of bearing (supporting) citta and cetasikas, or of bearing the continuity of kusala by unbroken procedure.” These are the characteristics of viriya. It is the escaping from idleness, progressing towards a higher state, continued exertion without stopping, zeal and fortitude by progressing on. We read in the Commentary: “Another method of exposition: -This viriyårambha is ‘striving’ in expelling lust, ‘onward effort’ in cutting the bonds, ‘exertion’ in escaping from the floods, ‘endeavour’ in reaching the further shore, ‘zeal’ in being a forerunner, ‘ardour’ in exceeding the limit, ‘vigour’ in lifting the bolt (of ignorance), and ‘fortitude’ in producing steadfastness. ’Verily, let the skin, veins and bones dry up’ 11 - thus by virtue of unfaltering effort at such time is the ‘state of a man of unfaltering effort’.” The Commentary explains further that energy does not let go of the desire-to-do, chanda (which is necessary to accomplish something), that it does not give up the task, and does not give in to discouragement with regard to the performing of kusala. It uses a simile of an ox which carries a burden and does not let go of it: “Just as if they were to say, ‘Get a beast of burden, an ox, to draw a burden from a marshy place not beyond the bullock’s strength,’ and the bullock, pressing the ground with its knees, were to carry the burden and would not allow it to drop on the ground, so energy lifts up and seizes the burden in the matter of doing moral acts. Hence it is said to be ‘support of burden’.” **** Nina. Op 23-nov-2006, om 14:33 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I also note that what Bhikkhu Bodhi renders as 'states' is > 'dhammaana.m'. I wonder if 'makes an effort' signifies that effort > arises? #65579 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha TGrand458@... In a message dated 11/23/2006 10:44:22 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi again, TG - In a message dated 11/23/06 1:44:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: > “Where consciousness becomes established and comes to growth … I say that > > is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.â€? … “Where consciousness > does > not become established and come to growth…I say that is without sorrow, > anguish, and despair.â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 600 - 601) > “By the utter destruction of delight in existence, > By the extinction of perception and consciousness, > By the cessation and appeasement of feelings, > It is thus, friend, that I know for beings – > Emancipation, release, seclusion.â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 90) > The body disintegrated, perception ceased, > All feelings became cool, > Mental activities were calmed, > And consciousness came to an end. > (The Buddha . . . The Udana &The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) > ====================== I think it is possible to understand the foregoing with 'vi~n~nana' referring to defiled dualistic, subject-object consciousness (as I understand it in dependent origination.in Thanissaro Bhikkhu, whom almost no one here likes (LOL!), has written "There is also a type of consciousness that lies outside of the khandhas — called consciousness without feature (viññanam anidassanam) — which is not related to the six senses at all." I conceive of viññanam anidassanam as undefiled, non-dual awareness of nibbana, involving neither subject nor object. I don't think that this is included under the term 'vi~n~nana' in the above-quoted material referring to cessation of consciousness. Look at the very first quote above: “Where consciousness becomes established and comes to growth … I say that is accompanied by sorrow, anguish, and despair.â€? … “Where consciousness does not become established and come to growth…I say that is without sorrow, anguish, and despair.â€? Compare that unestablished consciousness with the following item from the Kevatta Sutta: Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end? "'And the answer to that is:Consciousness without feature,1 without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here brought to an end.'" Also, from Ud 8.1, there is the following: "There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-consisting of consisting of neither-perception- “By the utter destruction of delight in existence, > By the extinction of perception and consciousness, > By the cessation and appeasement of feelings, > It is thus, friend, that I know for beings – > Emancipation, release, seclusion.â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 90) > The body disintegrated, perception ceased, > All feelings became cool, > Mental activities were calmed, > And consciousness came to an end. > (The Buddha . . . The Udana &The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) TG #65580 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:12 pm Subject: Re: Letter on Vipassana I, 1. philofillet Hi Niona > I read it and it is a good explanation about what is emphasized in > different parts of the suttanta. Interesting what he says about the > Gradual Sayings that is more directed to laypeople living in the > world. I think he used the expression "personal edification" to describe what many people get from AN - perhaps this means he thinks there is less concern about self-view, more acceptance of conventional definitions of "people" - you know, the suttas about "four kinds of people" etc. Of course these are referring to paramattha dhammas when you get right down to it. >Makes me think of Howard's walking on a tightrope. I don't remember this comment from Howard. (Probably missed it.) Did it refer to the heedfulness that is involved in walking a tight rope, or some aspect of the middle way? > Just putting a question mark to his remark about the Abhidhamma being > technical. Ultimate realities are the objects of vipassana and > Abhidhamma and vipassana go together, they should not be separated. Yes, that's right. Abdhidhamma is not dry and technical unless it is misunderstood. It is about the same objects of vipassana that the suttas are about, surely. Well perhaps some of them are spelled out in more detail. (e.g all the derived rupa that are not spelled out in the suttas.) Phil #65581 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:54 pm Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... philofillet Hi Ken > However, of the eight path factors that burn conditions out, > samma-ditthi is *the forerunner*. In case you haven't already guessed, > that is why I am so adamant in my convoluted arguments. :-) Not only > is there a suggestion that right view is not the forerunner (as is > common in 'formal practice' debates), there also seems to be a > suggestion that right view can sometimes be wrong. Namely, when it is > the reason a sotapanna does not kill, lie or steal. Yes, samma-ditthi is the forerunner, as the dawn precedes that day or however it is in that sutta. I sometimes have felt that I try to force the issue, to have right view that is penetrative understanding too soon. So it is just this thinking "this person is just nama and rupa, nothing to get upset about" (or somewhat subtler varieties) And I note that there is also a sutta that says that it is heedfulness that precedes all, the way dawn precedes the day. (Or the way all beams of a house lead from a central point in the roof, or soemthing like that.) So different varients of that pattern of sutta emphasize different factors. But the point was sotapannas, and I can certainly see your point that the samma-ditthi they have achieved would be just the thing for preventing killing! Phil p.s Matt, Jon and Andrew, thanks for waiting. I am not broaching your posts until I have time to write at my leisure. #65582 From: connie Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:43 pm Subject: Suan / Vi~n~nanam nichiconn Dear Nina, I think this is what you were looking for by Suan. peace, connie SUAN wrote: The original Pali found in Section 499, Kevatta Suttam, Silakkhandhavagga, Dighanikayo starts with the term "Vi~n~nanam". And Kevatta Sutta Atthakatha defines "Vi~n~nanam" as follows. "Tattha vi~n~natabbanti "Vi~n~nanam" nibbanassetam namam,.." "There, to be known specially, so (it is) "Vi~n~nanam". This is the name of nibbana." And Kevatta Sutta Tika further explains the phrase "vi~n~natabbanti" as follows. "Vi~n~natabbanti visitthena ~natabbam, ~nanuttamena ariyamagga~nanena paccakkhato janitabbanti attho, tenaha "nibbanassetam namam"ti." "(To be known specially) means to be extraordinarily known. The meaning is 'to be known in the sense of realization by ultimate wisdom, by noble path wisdom'". Therefore, (the commentator) stated that 'This is the name of nibbana'" Therefore, the term 'Vi~n~nanam' in the line of the original Pali verse "Vi~n~nanam anidassanam, anantam sabbatopabham .." does not refer to consciousness, the usual meaning of vi~n~nanam. In fact, the same verse includes the following two lines "Ettha nama~nca rupa~nca, asesam uparujjhati Vi~n~nanassa nirodhena, etthetam uparujjhati'ti". "Here (in nibbana), nama as well as rupa ceases without remainder. By ceasing of consciousness, nama as well as rupa ceases here." Nibbana does not become a sort of consciousness just because one of its Pali names happens to be Vi~n~nanam. Suan #65583 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] doubt of a sotapanna lbidd2 Hi Matheesha, Good to see you again even if only briefly. I always learn something from your emails but I can understand not wanting to get involved in convoluted discussions. I just wanted you to know that your input is appreciated even if we don't always show it. Larry #65584 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:29 pm Subject: Re: Suan / Vi~n~nanam rjkjp1 Dear Nina Here is some more http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=10 with respect Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Dear Nina, > I think this is what you were looking for by Suan. > peace, > connie > > SUAN wrote: > > The original Pali found in Section 499, Kevatta Suttam, Silakkhandhavagga, > Dighanikayo starts with the term "Vi~n~nanam". > #65585 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] doubt of a sotapanna lbidd2 Hi Nina and Swee Boon, I still don't understand why doubt concerning the dhamma ceases. Many people have doubts about kamma, rebirth, nibbana, and the many details of abhidhamma, not to mention doubt about the trustworthiness of commentators. Surely not all these doubts are overcome by direct knowledge of the sotapanna. Perhaps some are overcome by faith but that seems like not quite enough for a sotapanna. Maybe these doubts are overcome in the same way as view is overcome in the case of views concerning the undeclared questions, i.e., doubt is recognized as doubt just as views are recognized as views. Or maybe there's a better answer??? A couple of other questions: what about jury duty, does a sotapanna not have any doubt about who is guilty and who is innocent? If he is incapable of doubting does this disqualify him from jury duty? Perhaps Jon might know something about this. Also, in the sutta we are discussing 'view' is analyzed using the 4 noble truths. Is consciousness of the end of views consciousness of nibbana? If not, then how do we classify consciousness of the end of views? Larry #65586 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 11/23/06 6:28:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Damn, I knew I posted to you for some reason. Lots of good stuff to > consider. Yet, until further insight, I stick with my initial/current > assessment. -------------------------------- Howard: Fair enough! :-) --------------------------------- > > I'd say in your extensive argument there is a bit of "Sutta Gymnastics" > going on to support an unknowable proposition...unless one is an arahat and > > perhaps passed away. > --------------------------------- Howard: Quite so, at least as regards unknowable (or at least unknown). ---------------------------------- My assessments are also unknowable for the same reasons, but > > are more directly in a literal line with what the Suttas are saying I > believe. If we look at the 2 Suttas below, they seem incredibly direct and > clear. > Consciousness is extinguished, came to an end. > -------------------------------- Howard: You could, of course, be correct. I think of vi~n~nana as a separative consciousness - one which separates phenomena from phenomena and subject from object in a hard and fast way, a reifying consciousness, but I admittedly could be wrong. ---------------------------------- I'm dubious about another > > type of consciousness that still maintains. > ---------------------------------- Howard: Well, the Buddha is taking about *something* in Ud. 8.1 and in the Kevatta Sutta. ------------------------------------ If your proposition is correct, I > > would really need to reevaluate my confidence in the Buddha's ability to > communicate his meaning as well as I now consider it. And with all that > said, > The one term in the Suttas I have not been able to fit comfortably in my > understanding is his usage of "luminous." Especially if it is meant to > apply to > Parinibbana. As far as T. Bhikkhu goes, I side with the apparent > consensus. > ;-) > > >“By the utter destruction of delight in existence, > >By the extinction of perception and consciousness, > >By the cessation and appeasement of feelings, > >It is thus, friend, that I know for beings – > >Emancipation, release, seclusion.â€? > >(The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 90) > >The body disintegrated, perception ceased, > >All feelings became cool, > >Mental activities were calmed, > >And consciousness came to an end. > >(The Buddha . . . The Udana &The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) > > TG > > ====================== With metta, Howard #65587 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Suan / Vi~n~nanam nilovg Dear Connie and Robert, thank you very much, that helps! Nina. Op 24-nov-2006, om 3:43 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > "Vi~n~nanam anidassanam, anantam sabbatopabham .." does not refer to > consciousness, the usual meaning of vi~n~nanam. > > In fact, the same verse includes the following two lines > > "Ettha nama~nca rupa~nca, asesam uparujjhati > Vi~n~nanassa nirodhena, etthetam uparujjhati'ti". > > "Here (in nibbana), nama as well as rupa ceases without remainder. > By ceasing of consciousness, nama as well as rupa ceases here." > > Nibbana does not become a sort of consciousness just because one of > its > Pali names happens to be Vi~n~nanam. > #65588 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter on Vipassana I, 1. nilovg Hi Phil, it is about the finding a balance between the conventional world and the world of paramattha dhammas: > Connie quotes: name-and-form he traffics not with views (di.t.thi~n ca anupagamma), > [avoiding that by discerning] in the way stated thus 'A heap of mere > determinations; No creature can be found herein' (S i 135)> > > This is an exhortation to develop insight, beginning with the first > stage: discerning the difference between nama and rupa. No matter > whether one develops jhana or not, all stages of insight have to be > reached. -------------------------------------- Howard: Directly knowing the world as it is, the insight mentioned above will not bring with it ill effects.It will conduce only to good. But merely adopting the "no creature" view as *belief* can lead to perverse attitudes towards others.> ------------- As to B B's remarks on personal edification: all parts of the Tipitaka are good, and it depends on a person's disposition what helps him at a particular moment. You used to find helpful: S. IV: on Fire, what is on fire: the eye, etc. Perhaps you may now be more inclined to Gradual Sayings. Or the Middle Length Sayings: For example the tortoise who has to put its head into the hole of a yoke and comes to the surface once in innumerable years. So difficult it is to be born a human. We should not waste this moment and develop understanding of the dhamma appearing now, we have no time to waste as Scott said. Or if you prefer a shorter exhortation, Dpd: heedless is the path to hell. Or the Buddha's last words, exhorting the monks not to be heedless. You used to be concerned that one would cling to the words of the Dhamma, seeking comfort for oneself. Then we need the reminders of S IV, and the Abhidhamma: scrutinizing ourselves as to the different cittas: with clinging or with kusala chanda seeking sincerely more understanding. Nina. Op 24-nov-2006, om 1:12 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I think he used the expression "personal edification" to describe > what many people get from AN - perhaps this means he thinks there is > less concern about self-view, more acceptance of conventional > definitions of "people" - you know, the suttas about "four kinds of > people" etc. Of course these are referring to paramattha dhammas > when you get right down to it. > > >Makes me think of Howard's walking on a tightrope. > > I don't remember this comment from Howard. (Probably missed it.) > Did it refer to the heedfulness that is involved in walking a tight > rope, or some aspect of the middle way? #65589 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling sarahprocter... Dear Matt, Howard & all, I think your discussions and those of the others who've contributed to this topic on 'sila and why the sotapanna doesn't kill or break other precepts'have been very useful. It's natural to have different ideas and to express them rather forcefully at times:-). For my contrubution, I'd like to quote some extracts from the commentary to the Sammaditthi Sutta, translated by B.Nanamoli, edited by B.Bodhi (with some of my own ideas interspersed). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel377.html#pt2 "The person possessing right view is of three kinds: the worldling (puthujjana), the disciple in higher training (sekha), and the one beyond training (asekha). Herein, the worldling is of two kinds: one outside the Dispensation and one within the Dispensation. Herein, one outside the Dispensation who believes in kamma is one of right view on account of the view of kamma as one's own, but not on account of that which is in conformity with the truths, because he holds to the view of self. One within the Dispensation is of right view on account of both. The disciple in higher training is one of right view on account of fixed right view, the one beyond training on account of (the right view) that is beyond training." .... S:The sotapanna is the one of 'fixed right view' of kamma, the Noble Truths and anatta. With unshakeable confidence in these truths, the grosser kinds of akusala, including any idea of killing (or breaking the other precepts) has been completely eradicated. The confidence in the value of kusala of all kinds and the harm of akusala is much stronger. Qualities, such as metta, are much wider and stronger when there isn't the idea of particular people, I believe. ... "But here "one of right view" is intended as one possessing supramundane wholesome right view, which is fixed in destiny and emancipating. Hence he said: whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma (ujugata'ssa ditthi dhamme aveccappasadena samannagato agato imam saddhammam). Because of its going straight without deviating to either extreme, or because of its going straight by removing all crookedness such as bodily crookedness, etc., supramundane right view is "straight." One possessing that view also possesses perfect confidence, unshakable confidence, in the ninefold supramundane Dhamma....." ... S: With unshakable confidence and 'going straight' at all times as a result of the developed vipassana, there cannot arise the attachment or aversion or wrong view which can lead to any thought of the gross akusala kamma patha which can lead to unhappy rebirths. .... "Understands the unwholesome (akusalan ca pajanati): he understands the unwholesome called the ten courses of unwholesome kamma (action), penetrating this by way of function with the understanding that has Nibbana as its object as "This is suffering." (Understands) the root of the unwholesome (akusalamulan ca pajanati): And he understands the unwholesome root which has become the root condition of that (unwholesome), penetrating this, in the same way, as "This is the origin of suffering." The same method applies here also in regard to "the wholesome" and "the root of the wholesome."." .... S: There is highly developed understanding of conditions and especially the roots of kusala and akusala, the origin of suffering and so on. There is no illusion that such akusala can ever lead to any well-being, such as killing in any circumstances. ... "The Unwholesome Courses of Action Herein, firstly, in the detailed exposition of the first section: as regards the passage beginning killing living beings is unwholesome (panatipato kho avuso akusalam), "unwholesome" should be understood by way of the occurrence of unwholesomeness, or as what is opposed to the wholesome.... As to characteristic, it is blameworthy and has painful result, or it is defiled.... "But as regards the particular terms, the phrase killing living beings means the slaughter of a living being, the destruction of a living being. And here a living being (pana) is, according to ordinary usage, a being (satta); in the ultimate sense it is the life faculty. "Killing living beings" is the volition to kill on the part of one who is aware, in respect of a living being, that it is a living being, and which (volition), manifesting itself through one or the other of the doors of body and speech, initiates activity resulting in the cutting off of the life faculty." .... S: When the cittas are known more clearly for what they are as conditioned dhammas, as namas, distinct from rupas, kusala and akusala cetasikas are also known more and more precisely without any idea of various situations, scenarios or 'things' as existing in truth. Even though a sotapanna thinks of and refers to 'being' and 'person', there is no illusion that this is anything other than 'ordinary usage'. .... "Wrong view (micchaditthi): It sees wrongly due to the absence of a correct grasp of things, thus it is wrong view. Its characteristic is the mistaken view that "there is no (result from) giving," etc. .....Its constituents are two: a mistaken manner of grasping the basis (for the view), and the appearance of that (basis) in accordance with the manner in which it has been grasped" ... S: We see how wrong view can be a condition for all kinds of akusala. When wrong view has been completely eradicated (at the stage of sotapatti magga), other kinds of gross akusala conditioned by such views are also eradicated. .... S: The following refers to the 3 ways in which the precepts such as non-killing are kept. The third way, the total eradication of any idea of killing etc is adhi-sila (higher sila) which only those who have developed the eightfold path, the path of vipassana and attained sotapatti magga can realize: .... "Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome (panatipata veramani), etc.: Here "killing living beings," etc. have the same meaning as aforesaid. It crushes the hostile, thus it is abstention (veram manati ti veramani); the meaning is that it abandons the hostile. Or: with that as the instrument one abstains (viramati), the syllable ve being substituted for the syllable vi. This here is, in the first place, the commentary on the phrasing. But as to the meaning, abstention is refraining (virati) associated with wholesome consciousness. What is stated thus: "For one refraining from killing living beings, that which is on that occasion the leaving off, the refraining" (Vibh. 285), that is the refraining associated with wholesome consciousness. As to kind, it is threefold: refraining in the presence of opportunity, refraining because of an undertaking, and refraining because of eradication (of defilements). Herein, refraining in the presence of an opportunity (sampattavirati) is to be understood as the refraining which occurs in those who have not undertaken any training rule but who do not transgress when an opportunity for doing so presents itself because they reflect upon their birth, age, learning, etc...." ... S: a)Virati sila(abstention) is the first kind - when there is an opportunity to kill etc, there is the wise abstention. The development of right speech, action and livelihood is the development of the virati of the 8fold path. It doesn't refer to any idea of abstaining in future, such as when reciting the precepts ...... "Refraining because of an undertaking (samadanavirati) is to be understood as the refraining which occurs in those who do not transgress in a particular case because they have undertaken training rules, giving up even their own lives in the undertaking of the training rules and in what is superior to that..." .... S: b)Samadana sila is the intention or undertaking to abstain from killing etc in future. Of course it's not just a matter of repeating the precepts on a Moon day by custom, but the honest intention to abstain in future when opportunity arises. As children we may even have determined not to kill or harm, for example. There is no need for a sotapanna to have samadana and there won't be any virati arising in the case of killing etc, because there won't be such an idea anyway. So samadana sila which those of any religion might follow is not like the sila of a sotapanna. .... "Refraining because of eradication (of defilements) (samucchedavirati) is to be understood as the refraining associated with the noble path. After the arising of this even the thought, "I will kill a living being," does not occur to the noble persons. This refraining is called "wholesome" (kusala) because of the occurrence of wholesomeness (kosalla); or because of shedding the vile (kucchitassa salanato). Also, evil conduct is commonly called "weeds" (kusa) and it mows this down (lunati), thus it is called "wholesome." .... S: c) Samucchedavirati is the sotapanna's (and other ariyan disciples') sila. This is what distinguishes it from a)virati sila above and b)samadana sila. Without the realization of the 4 Noble Truths, there can never be such adhi sila (higher sila). The 'vile' has been 'shed' as it says. .... "Conclusion on the Unwholesome and the Wholesome Now, summing up the meaning of all that has been set forth in brief and in detail, he states the concluding section beginning with the words when a noble disciple. Herein, has thus understood the wholesome (evam akusalam pajanati) means: has thus understood the unwholesome by way of the ten courses of unwholesome kamma as described. The same method applies in the case of the root of the unwholesome, etc." ... S: It is by the following of the path, beginning with the clear comprehension of namas and rupas, that kusala and akusala are clearly known and the defilements are eradicated, beginning with the grossest kinds which include self-view and all other wrong views and the kilesa of a degree that can break the precepts. Thank you for stimulating and encouraging this discussion. Metta, Sarah ======== #65590 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:07 am Subject: Doubt of a wordling (Was:Re: doubt of a sotaapanna. jwromeijn Hallo Matheesha, Nina, Larry, all I have not sent so much messages as Matheesha did but still doubt. Some days ago I wrote to Jon (in 65510, about the possibility of awakening - especially of sudden awakening - today): "I think that the criteria for getting streamenterer are made (by Theravada monks for reasons I don't understand) higher and higher in the course of the centuries. I think with the level of insight you and I have, we were a streamenterer in the time of the Buddha." Still I'm not (I know my own greed, hatred and a part of my delusion) but although not a sotapanna, I have my doubts. Maybe other doubts than that of a sotapanna: I have said more than once, I just start thinking what to do as a streamenterer or higher aryan at the moment I got it: time enough, I prefer thinking about what to do in my situation now. Yesterday I understood James' leaving DSG. I regret but I understand. Of course most discussions or debates (in DSG) or useless. Still I post now and then, but most of them are now: to formulate my ideas, writing them down and sending to an audience can help in formulating. If this has any influence on the audience: I doubt. Perhaps my motto from now on will be the double doubt of the question: DO I DOUBT ??? Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > ..... > My absence has been due to accidentally noticing how many emails I > have posted to this group. It was over a 1000. I must have spent > 20mins to 1hr if not more on each one. I also noticed I was > developing a theoretical/conceptual framework of buddhism and > begining to think it was real understanding which shook me a bit. I > also noted that I was giving rise to more akusala due to debates on > this group. What I gained in terms of understanding has been limited > as well. So I guess my involvement will possibly be limited due to > these reasons. I will pop in now and again though. :) > > with metta > > Matheesha > #65591 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:50 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 589- The Stages of Insight(k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd Life exists in only one moment of experiencing an object. This moment falls away and is gone completely, and then another moment arises. When there is seeing, our life is seeing, when there is hearing, our life is hearing. Each moment of life is impermanent and thus it is dukkha, we cannot take our refuge in it. The cause of dukkha is clinging. Very often after seeing, hearing or the other sense-cognitions there is clinging, but it may be so subtle that we do not notice it. We cling to seeing, we also cling to thinking of concepts after the seeing, we want to pay attention to shape and form. When we read there is usually clinging, we have desire to know the meaning of what we read. When we are thinking there are often akusala cittas with clinging, but we do not notice it. When right understanding is being developed clinging can be known as only a conditioned nåma, not self. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65592 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:29 am Subject: doubt of a sotaapanna. nilovg Hi Larry (and Sarah), I think many of your dilemmas are solved when looking at Sarah's very helpful post about the Sammaditthisutta. First this: L: A couple of other questions: what about jury duty, does a sotapanna not have any doubt about who is guilty and who is innocent? If he is incapable of doubting does this disqualify him from jury duty? ------- N: Doubt that is eradicated is not doubt about worldly matters but doubt about paramattha dhammas. This solves what you asked above. --------- L: I still don't understand why doubt concerning the dhamma ceases. Many people have doubts about kamma, rebirth, nibbana, and the many details of abhidhamma, not to mention doubt about the trustworthiness of commentators. Surely not all these doubts are overcome by direct knowledge of the sotapanna. Perhaps some are overcome by faith but that seems like not quite enough for a sotapanna. Maybe these doubts are overcome in the same way as view is overcome in the case of views concerning the undeclared questions, i.e., doubt is recognized as doubt just as views are recognized as views. Or maybe there's a better answer??? ------- N: quote from Sarah's post: Unshakable confidence in these truths, and that means: no doubt. Quote Sammaditthisutta: The second of the Triple Gem the sotaapanna has absolute confidence in includes the nine lokuttara dhammas, thus, also nibbaana. L: not to mention doubt about the trustworthiness of commentators. ----- N: The sotaapanna has verified himself the Truth of the teachings. He can verify whether what is in the commentary pertains to the Truth or not, that is most important. We all should do this! We can find out! ------- L: Also, in the sutta we are discussing 'view' is analyzed using the 4 noble truths. Is consciousness of the end of views consciousness of nibbana? If not, then how do we classify consciousness of the end of views? ------ N: I could not find the sutta anymore. The sotaapanna has realized the four noble truths directly. When he attained nibbaana, he directly realized the third noble Truth and thereby also eradicated wrong view and also any doubt about paramattha dhammas. Nina. #65593 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:09 am Subject: Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Robert, A pre-requisite course: R: "Dhamma 101: "This is mere mentality-materiality, there is no being, no person" Visuddhimagga XVIII24 and "The mental and material (nama rupa) are really here. But here is no human being to be found, for it is void and merely fashioned like a doll"XVII31" I think this is very clear. I also think that this can condition a sometimes subtle wish that there is some sort of self. And that the wish arises rooted in lobha. I was looking into lobha in Dhammasa"nga.ni, 1059: "What is greed? That which is lust (raago), passion (saraago), seducing (anunayo), compliance (anurodho), delighting in (nandi), taking lustful delight in (nandi-raago), heart's passion (citassa saraago), wanting (icchaa), languishing (mucchaa), gulping at, devouring (ajjhosaana.m), cupidity (gedho), voracity (palighedo), cleaving to (sango), a slough (panko), longing (ejaa), illusion (maayaa), genitrix (janika), pregenetrix (sa~njananii), seamstress (sibbanii), she who ensnares (jaalinii), the flowing stream (saritaa), she who is diffused (visattikaa), the thread (sutta.m), diffusion (vi.sataa), she who urges (aayuuhanii), the consort (dutiyaa), aiming at (pani.dhi), she who leads to rebirth (bhavanettii), the forest (vana.m), the jungle (vanatho), intimacy (santhavo), fondness (sineho), affection (apekkhaa), connexion (pa.tibandhu), appetite for (aasaa), hoping for (aasi.msanaa), anticipation (assimsitattha.m), appetite for visual shapes (ruupasaa, etc.), for sounds, for odours, for tastes, for the tangible, for getting, for wealth, for children, for life, mumbling (jappaa), mumbling on, and over, muttering, murmuring, self-indulgence (loluppa.m), self-indulging, intemperateness, agitation (pu~ncikataa), longing for the agreeable (saadukamyataa), incestuous passion (adhammaraago), lawless greed (visamalobho), wish (nikaamanaa), hungering for (nikaamanaa), entreating (patthanaa), envying (pihanaa), imploring (sampatthanaa), craving for sensual indulgence (kaamata.nhaa), for existence (bhavatanhaa), for non-existence (vibhavata.nhaa), for [material] form, for immateriality, for annihilation, for visible shapes, for sounds, for smells, for tastes, for the tangible, for mental states (dhammata.nhaa), a flood (ogho), a yoke (yogo), a tie (gantho), grasping (upaadaana.m), obstruction (aavara.na.m), hindrance (niivara.na.m), covering (chadana.m), bondage (bandhana.m), depravity (upakkilesa), latent bias (anusayo), obsession (pariyu.t.thaana.m), a creeper (lataa), avarice (veviccha.m) root of ill, source of ill (dukkhanidaana.m), production of ill (dukkhappabhavo), Maara's trap (maarapaaso), Maara's fish-hook (maarabalisa.m), Maara's domain (maaravisayo), craving, the flux of craving for (sandata.nhaa), the fishing net of (jaala.mta.nhaa), the leash of (gaddulata.nhaa), the ocean (samuddho), covetousness (abhijjhaa), greed as the root of evil - this is what is called greed." R: "But we foolish ones cannot see this, and so we imagine there is really is a world populated with other beings who we feel varying degress of affection/dislike/equanimity for." In the Dhammasa"nga.ni list there appear some of the more gentle or apparently desirable and possibly laudable qualities: compliance intimacy fondness affection connexion hoping for wish entreating One need not look too hard to see these every day. And with others, and I find this most with the young others who share my home, these are very much aspects of what one could mistakenly call "compassion" when caring for them. Do I not love them? Hug them? Tuck them in? Want to please them? Buy them gifts? Attempt to satisfy their needs? I suspect that these overt actions might not appear different at the surface were they to be the manifestation of true compassion, but I also suspect that this wholesome dhamma may not arise that often as I "love" the children. Can it arise that I see the children as manifestations of their own kamma? Can it arise that I see them as condition for the arising of wholesome dhammas such as compassion? Can I see them as no different, in the end, from any other so-called being as an object which might condition the arising of wholesome dhammas? I can remember how it must have been a similar discussion that elicited the tongue-in-cheek call for the immediate removal of these children from my care for reasons of what seemed to be coldness due to considerations of anatta. I know I "love" these children. The Dhamma shows that this "love" is not often compassion. This is hard to bear. It shakes the foundations. But of what? Only those of the scarecrow's house, I'd say. Scott. #65594 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:42 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe, 131 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 18 Elements The Buddha spoke about realities as elements, dhåtus, in order to remind us that they are non-self. When we speak about elements we usually think of elements in chemistry or physics which each have their own characteristic. In chemistry and physics matter is analysed into elements, but it may seem strange to us to regard the eye or seeing as elements. We are not used to considering them as elements because we are inclined to take them for self. What we take for self are only nåma-elements and rúpa-elements which arise because of their appropriate conditions and then fall away again. Eyesense is only an element which has its own characteristic and is devoid of self; it is rúpa which arises because of conditions and then falls away again. Seeing is only an element which has its own characteristic and is devoid of self; it is nåma which arises because of conditions and falls away again. In the Buddha's teachings realities are classified as elements, dhåtus, some of which are rúpa and some of which are nåma. There are different ways of classifying realities as elements. When they are classified as eighteen elements, they are as follows: The five senses: 1. Eye-element (cakkhu-dhåtu) 2. Ear-element (sota-dhåtu) 3. Nose-element (ghåna-dhåtu) 4. Tongue-element (jivhå-dhåtu) 5. Body-element (kåya-dhåtu, which is the bodysense) The five objects (experienced through the five senses): 6. Visible object-element (rúpa-dhåtu) 7. Sound-element (sadda-dhåtu) 8. Smell-element (gandha-dhåtu) 9. Taste-element (rasa-dhåtu) 10. Element of tangible objects (pho.t.thabba-dhåtu), comprising the following three kinds of rúpa: earth-element (solidity), appearing as hardness or softness, fire-element (temperature), appearing as heat or cold, wind-element, appearing as motion or pressure. The dvi-pañca-viññåùas (the ``five pairs'' of sense-cognitions, experiencing the five sense-objects): 11. Seeing-consciousness-element (cakkhu-viññåùa-dhåtu) 12. Hearing-consciousness-element (sota-viññåùa-dhåtu) 13. Smelling-consciousness-element (ghåna-viññåùa-dhåtu) 14. Tasting-consciousness-element (jivhå-viññåùa-dhåtu) 15. Body-consciousness-element (kåya-viññåùa-dhåtu) In addition, there are three more elements: 16. Mind-element (mano-dhåtu) 17. Dhamma-dhåtu 18. Mind-consciousness-element (mano-viññåùa-dhåtu) ******* Nina. #65595 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Robert) - In a message dated 11/24/06 8:17:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > R: "But we foolish ones cannot see this, and so we imagine there is > really is a world populated with other beings who we feel varying > degress of affection/dislike/equanimity for." > > In the Dhammasa"nga.ni list there appear some of the more gentle or > apparently desirable and possibly laudable qualities: > > compliance > intimacy > fondness > affection > connexion > hoping for > wish > entreating > > One need not look too hard to see these every day. And with others, > and I find this most with the young others who share my home, these > are very much aspects of what one could mistakenly call "compassion" > when caring for them. Do I not love them? Hug them? Tuck them in? > Want to please them? Buy them gifts? Attempt to satisfy their needs? ------------------------------------------- Howard: The "same" actions may or may not be really the same. It depends on the underlying sankharas, especially intentions. And from moment to moment these may shift from wholesome to defiled and back again. As we look within with right intention and increasingly objective perception, we may learn to distinguish. But until we are advanced ariyans, should we not just "do our best"? In any case, IMO, it would be tragic were one, in order to avoid "imperfection", scuttle the "loving", the hugging, the tucking in, and the various other attempts at providing the means to benefit the little ones. ------------------------------------------- > > I suspect that these overt actions might not appear different at the > surface were they to be the manifestation of true compassion, but I > also suspect that this wholesome dhamma may not arise that often as I > "love" the children. -------------------------------------------- Howard: We are not saints, so we shouldn't expect the actions of a saint in ourself. -------------------------------------------- > > Can it arise that I see the children as manifestations of their own > kamma? Can it arise that I see them as condition for the arising of > wholesome dhammas such as compassion? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: These insights would be useful. It would be excellent that they arise. But they should arise along with even strengthened metta, karuna, and mudita, and not with a heart-numbing de-personalization. That is the danger is grasping anatta wrongly - a de-personalization that dries out and hardens the heart. ---------------------------------------------- Can I see them as no different, > > in the end, from any other so-called being as an object which might > condition the arising of wholesome dhammas? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: ARE they no different, and should they be seen as no different? Are they but conditions for you, and should they be seen only as such? Are they but a means to your end? Are human beings *utter* fictions, *fully* unreal, or are they simply empty of existence *as* unitary, self-existent, independent entities? Reality, as I see it, is of a middle-way sort, but our mind has trouble walking a middle-way tightrope. We almost always tend towards loss of balance. The Dhamma is like the pole the tightrope walker holds that helps keep him/her balanced. At all times we need to closely monitor the mind to see which way it is leaning and to pull ourselves back to the middle. In the Kaccayangotta Sutta, the Buddha says the following about the conventional person or mind-body ("the world"): "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one." ----------------------------------------------- > > I can remember how it must have been a similar discussion that > elicited the tongue-in-cheek call for the immediate removal of these > children from my care for reasons of what seemed to be coldness due to > considerations of anatta. I know I "love" these children. The Dhamma > shows that this "love" is not often compassion. This is hard to bear. > It shakes the foundations. But of what? Only those of the > scarecrow's house, I'd say. > > ------------------------------------- Howard: The realizing that the mind moves from kusala to akusala and is less than perfect should be celebrated, not feared. It is fact that we are extremely imperfect. Were we not to realize that imperfection we would be seriously lost - we would be in a desperate situation without knowing it. To be aware that our (conventional) motives are mixed is *good*. That awareness is the necessary first step to improvement. ======================= With metta, Howard #65596 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha nidive Hi Howard & TG, > Consciousness without feature, > without end, > luminous all around: > Here water, earth, fire, & wind > have no footing. > Here long & short > coarse & fine > fair & foul > name & form > are all brought to an end. > With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness > each is here brought to an end.'" I suspect that "consciousness without feature" refers to a special type of concentration that takes nibbana as its object. This type of special concentration is spoken of by the Buddha and Sariputta. Spoken of by the Buddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.006.than.html Spoken of by Sariputta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.007.than.html If you look again at Kevatta Sutta, you would notice that the bhikkhu who was seeking an answer as to where the four great elements cease without remainder was actually an expert in the jhanas. I suspect that that bhikkhu was seeking a type of jhana where the four great elements cease without remainder. And it is in response to this that the Buddha speaks of this special type of jhana, calling it a "consciousness without feature". Sariputta also described this sort of consciousness as without end when he said "one perception arose as another ceased". As to why it is "luminous all around", I think that can only be understood by direct experience of this type of jhana. And as to why the Buddha prefers to phrase the four great elements as "having no footing" instead of "cease without remainder", I think that's because this type of consciousness does not constitute nibbana, but only the mere perception of nibbana. Because it is mere perception only, "having no footing" is a more accurate description than "cease without remainder". Also, I don't think this type of consciousness describes the 'state' of an arahant after death. The Buddha at parinibbana is said to emerge from the fourth jhana and then immediately totally unbound. Also, the description of "one perception arose as another ceased" as described by Sariputta is not in accord with being 'unconditioned'. Also, the last sentence of "With the cessation of consciousness, each is here brought to an end." leaves a big question mark. Does this consciousness refer to the khandhic consciousness or the supposed 'consciousness without feature'? I think this ambiguity is solved when we identify "consciousness without feature" as the special type of jhana taking nibbana as its object. The consciousness of "consciousness without feature" is in fact the same consciousness as khandhic consciousness. > I believe that this base, the non-dual reality pointed to in each of > the foregoing is the same as is referred to when the Buddha says > "Where consciousness does not become established and come to > growth, I say that is without sorrow, anguish, and despair." > in the material you quote. Consciousness without a footing, > consciousness without feature, consciousness withoug support, and > unestablished consciousness are one and the same, I think. These > are all terms pointing to the unconditioned. I believe that this sutta is talking on a different subject than the one on "consciousness without feature". I think it is related to the Udana Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.055.than.html Regards, Swee Boon #65597 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:45 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana I, 4. nilovg Dear friends, If we have a bowl of fruits on the table we can look at them and they do not seem to fall away. It is helpful to know the reason. Realities, paramattha dhammas, such as visible object which is a kind of rúpa, fall away. However, we keep on thinking about the stories we create. The concepts such as fruit we can think of are not paramattha dhammas, they are not realities, thus they do not arise and fall away. They are merely made up by our thinking. Khun Sujin said to Jonothan: “When one is busy with one's work, just keep on remembering that sati can be aware of any moment. When there is not forgetfulness but awareness, one can begin to have some understanding, even though it be very little, of what is real. Citta is real, it experiences an object. A dead body, even if there are still eyes and ears, cannot experience anything. Citta experiences. The experience is a reality. We should not be attached to the idea of, ‘how can I have more sati’. It can grow in a few lifetimes. Let us talk about seeing and visible object so that there can be conditions to be aware of them. If there is no understanding of this moment how can understanding grow? Considering visible object in the office is not different from considering visible object at this moment. There is no need to change the situation or to do anything else in order to develop right understanding. When sati is not hindered by wrong ideas we may have about it, it can arise freely and show its characteristic of anattå , not self or mine. Also when one talks about conventional things in the office there can be awareness of nåma and rúpa.” Jonothan said that he would continue to consider visible object, since it is there all the time. Khun Sujin remarked that a few moments of awareness now are better than thinking of having many moments of it in the future, when one has free time. Are we inclined to put off kusala to a later time? ****** Nina. #65598 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... nilovg Dear Scott and Howard, I was hoping Howard would come in, I thought so much of the tightrope and the balance. I take these things very much to heart. Howard expressed it all so well. Like this: N: Wonderful you tuck in your children, not all parents do. This is not an inhuman religion, we should not become unnatural in our dealings with our fellowmen. And like this: H: Important point. We should not overreach, and we should not tell ourselves: 'we should not do this or that", but I do not speak now of the harmful lobha Phil refers to. We read texts and these help us to know ourselves, but this does not mean: point at all the moments of lobha or conceit. That would drive us crazy. ------------- Scott: Can it arise that I see the children as manifestations of their own > kamma? Can it arise that I see them as condition for the arising of > wholesome dhammas such as compassion? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: These insights would be useful. It would be excellent that they arise. But they should arise along with even strengthened metta, karuna, and mudita, and not with a heart-numbing de-personalization. That is the danger is grasping anatta wrongly - a de-personalization that dries out and hardens the heart. ------ N: Howard, very well said. Scott: to see the children in this or that way: we have to be careful not to see the children as a means to have more kusala. It depends on whether this naturally arise or not. Best to see lobha as a conditioned dhamma, and not try to change your lobha into something else. ------ S: Can I see them as no different, > > in the end, from any other so-called being as an object which might > condition the arising of wholesome dhammas? -------- N: Howard asks: are they no different? And he is right to question this. We cannot deny human relations. Of course they are different, we have to be sincere. We are not saints. Again the balance: we know that persons are citta, cetasika and rupa, but at the same time we do not deny human relations. always this balance. --------- S: I know I "love" these children. The Dhamma > shows that this "love" is not often compassion. This is hard to bear. ------ N: It is not hard to bear, if it is, one judges oneself, blames oneself with a thought of my lack of kusala. But, I also do these things. That is not the dhamma way. We should live our life quite naturally. I always learnt this from Kh Sujin, right from the beginning. ------------------------------------------- H: The realizing that the mind moves from kusala to akusala and is less than perfect should be celebrated, not feared. It is fact that we are extremely imperfect. Were we not to realize that imperfection we would be seriously lost - we would be in a desperate situation without knowing it. To be aware that our (conventional) motives are mixed is *good*. That awareness is the necessary first step to improvement. ------ N: Yes celebrated, not feared. Excellent, Howard. It is good to know the facts, but again, no judgement of oneself. It is so wise that the teaching of insight is this: our only task now is becoming familiar with the characteristics of nama and rupa that appear. Then we shall know the difference in their characteristics. We cannot precisely know yet citta as nama, lobha as nama. Not before the first stage of insight. We are mostly thinking of concepts and the name lobha or conceit. We can learn to be aware of whatever arises, kusala, akusala, they are all conditioned. Jon's word: they are equally worthy to be object of awareness. We need evenmindedness, impartiality to the dhammas that appear already because of their own conditions. There they are, they appear because they have arisen because of conditions. it is not helpful to try to have less affection out of fear for akusala. To conclude with great appreciation of yours and Howard's post. These are important matters to reflect on. Nina. Op 24-nov-2006, om 14:09 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > these > are very much aspects of what one could mistakenly call "compassion" > when caring for them. Do I not love them? Hug them? Tuck them in? > Want to please them? Buy them gifts? Attempt to satisfy their needs? #65599 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] doubt of a sotaapanna. lbidd2 Hi Htoo and Nina, Thank you for your replies. I'm satisfied;-) Htoo!!! So nice to see you again. What are your plans? I hope you will be with us for a good long time. Larry ps: Htoo, I couldn't reply directly to you. You might have to update your yahoo account.