#65800 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 1, 2006 10:22 pm Subject: Glad Giving ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to Give with only Good & Joyous Result! There might be the case, where one gives wealth, but without joy! Then, the later result is that one gets wealth, but without any joy! Illustration: A multi-billionaire at Buddha's time was known as neither enjoying himself nor sharing any of his wealth. He lived alone in an old house, which were falling apart, wore rag clothes, ate only broken rice and drove a ramshackle ox-cart. When he died, then it took 2 weeks to move his gold & silver to the kings treasury... This king then approached and asked the Blessed Gotama Buddha: How come this man never ever enjoyed nor shared out of his wealth? The Buddha then reviewed his case and explained that 8 generations back this man had given a single meal to a Solitary Pacceka-Buddha! Yet after he had given, he felt no joy from it & even regretted that he did it. For 7 consecutive lives he was reborn as multi-billionaire, but without ever being able to enjoy any of it. Having now used up his accumulated merit, without ever doing any refilling good action, he had now, at the break-up of his body, re-arised in a bad state... Apparently, he had never asked anybody about cause and effect! The Opposite Case: When old, the Noble Disciple recollects his own generosity thus: I am truly Blessed, highly fortunate am I who joyous, among beings defiled with the mental stain of stinginess, live with a mind freed from stinginess, liberal, open-handed, rejoicing in giving, ready to give anything asked for, glad to give & happy to share with others. Such Noble one not only later gets much wealth, but also enjoys it. Why so? Not only does he give, but he also enjoys it forever after! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #65801 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] vipallaasas and sotaapanna sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- han tun wrote: >> Han: I became interested in the three vipallaasas. So > I looked at Visuddhimagga and I found: > Vism. XXII, 53: The perversions are the three, namely, > perversion of perception, of consciousness, and of > view, which occur apprehending objects that are > impermanent, painful, not-self, and foul (ugly), as > permanent, pleasure, self, and beautiful. > > Could you kindly explain more about these three > vipallaasas? .... S: Yes, there is perversion of sanna and citta with every akusala citta arising. So only the arahant has no more vipallaasa at all. The sotapanna has eradicated the vipallaasa which takes the impermanent for permanent, the not-self for self and all vipallaasa with ditthi. See the following entry from Nyantiloka's dictionary: ***** > vipallāsa 'perversions' or 'distortions'. - ''There are 4 perversions which may be either: * of perception (saññā-vipallāsa), * of consciousness (citta v.) * or of views (ditthi-v.). And which are these four? To regard: * what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; * what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness-yielding); * what is without a self (anattā) as a self; * what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful'' (A.IV.49). - See Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw (WHEEL 31/32). p.5. "Of the perversions, the following are eliminated by the 1st path-knowledge (sotāpatti): the perversions of perception, consciousness and views, that the impermanent is permanent and what is not a self is a self; further, the perversion of views that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. By the 3rd path-knowledge (anāgāmitā) are eliminated: the perversions of perception and consciousness that the impure is pure. By the 4th path-knowledge (arahatta) are eliminated the perversions of perception and consciousness that the painful is pleasant" (Vis.M. XXII, 68).< ***** S: Also, lots more good material under 'vipallasa' in 'Useful Posts'. Thank you for the helpful comments you added from the Burmese Sayadaw also. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you also for your kind comments to Howard and myself. I think you're very modest:-). ====================== #65802 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 3:05 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd At the moment of enlightenment the enlightenment factors accompany the lokuttara citta. As we have seen, these are: mindfulness, investigation of dhamma (which is paññå), energy, enthusiasm, tranquillity, concentration and equanimity. The magga-citta eradicates defilements and experiences nibbåna. The phala-citta which is the result of the magga-citta also experiences nibbåna; it does not eradicate defilements(1). *** 1) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 24. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65803 From: "Joop" Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] vipallaasas and sotaapanna jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Han & all, > ... Hallo Han, Sarah, all Han, your message had to do with one I sent some days ago (#65683, see a quote of it below) The difference is that you asked (and many messages in DSG are about that topic) about : HOW IS IT TO BE A SOTAPANNA (or a …, …, arahat) ? With me the question is: IS IT POSSIBLE TO GET A SOTAPANNA ? AND HOW? I think in theory this is possible, although in this time 2500 years affter the passing away of the Buddha, 'degeneration of time' is to me an Indian and not a Buddhistic idea. The next question is: is this only 'theory', is this extremely difficult so nearly impossible? I think the answer is: no, not that difficult. What do you think? The how is described in the Suttas I wrote this week: According Thanissaro Bhikkhu the experience of stream-entry is called 'the arising of the Dhamma-eye' (www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream1.html and www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html) Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the wanderer: "Whatever phenomena arise from a cause: Their cause & their cessation. Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, the Great Contemplative." Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this exposition of Dhamma, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." Also in the Suttas more quiet path is given: The practices leading to stream entry are encapsulated in four factors: " Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream- entry." SN 55.5 Another (more 'technical') description of the path is given with the 'fetter' method: For the sotapanna, the arising of the Dhamma eye — with its insight into the causal principles underlying the origination and cessation of stress — is what cuts through the first three fetters. " He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: self-identity view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices." MN 2 I think the information Sarah gave, is in fact the same as in this Suttas. Only one difference: - In the quotes of Sarah the path is given in negative terms (persversions, eradicated etc) - In the Sutta-quotes the path is given in positive terms. (And I prefer the positive on; fot the same reason I prefer to contemplate on the term 'metta' more than on 'adosa'; I think the positive one 'works' better') Metta Joop #65804 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 5:43 am Subject: Re: Latest edited audio discussions uploaded! scottduncan2 Dear Sarah and Jon, Thank you both very much for: "We're delighted to have uploaded the latest discussions with A.Sujin, edited by Jon and I, from Bangkok, February, 2006." 30 below and now something to do inside. Scott #65805 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] vipallaasas and sotaapanna hantun1 Dear Mike, Thank you very much for your kind words. With metta and respect, Han --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Han, > > Thanks so much for this--this is the most > interesting new material I've seen > (or noticed) posted here in years. Fascinating and > important I think, > especially given the Vsm. citation. > > mike > #65806 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Latest edited audio discussions uploaded! nilovg Dear Sarah, Anumodana to you and Jon for all your hard work. I shall download them, with many thanks, Nina. Op 2-dec-2006, om 12:02 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > We're delighted to have uploaded the latest discussions with A.Sujin, > edited by Jon and I, from Bangkok, February, 2006. #65807 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 6:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] vipallaasas and sotaapanna hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind explanation on various vipallaasas and their elimination by path knowledge in stages, referring to Nyanatiloka’s Buddhist Dictionary. I also appreciate your reference to The Manual of Insight by Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw. I like the three similes with regard to the three vipallasa illustrated by Sayadaw: the similes of wild deer, magician, and a man who has lost his way. You know what? I have this book, but I did not study it carefully. Thank you very much for referring this Manual. With metta and respect, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han & all, > > S: Yes, there is perversion of sanna and citta with > every akusala citta > arising. So only the arahant has no more vipallaasa > at all. The sotapanna > has eradicated the vipallaasa which takes the > impermanent for permanent, > the not-self for self and all vipallaasa with > ditthi. > > See the following entry from Nyantiloka's > dictionary: > > ***** > - See Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw > (WHEEL 31/32). p.5. > > ***** > S: Also, lots more good material under 'vipallasa' > in 'Useful Posts'. > #65808 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 7:09 am Subject: vipallaasa nilovg Dear Han, I quoted some material in my Vis. studies, Vis. CH XVII, 116: As we read in the text of the Visuddhimagga: < he figures that formations are self, belong to a self, are lasting, pleasant, beautiful.> Here the text refers to the perversions, vipallaasa, of perception (saññaa), of citta, of wrong view. Through these perversities one regards: what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness); what is non-self (anattaa) as self; what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful. Thus, there are four perversions. The sotaapanna has eliminated the perversions of perception, citta and wrong view, that the impermanent is permanent and what is non- self as self; further, the perversion of wrong view that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. The anaagaami has eliminated: the perversions of perception and citta that the impure is pure. The arahat has eliminated the perversions of perception and citta that the painful is pleasant (Vis. XXII, 68). Thus we see that not all perversions are conditioned by wrong view. However, all of them are conditioned by ignorance. Thus, the sotaapanna still has the perversions of perception and citta that the impure is pure and the perversions of perception and citta that the painful is pleasant. He can take for sukha what is dukkha, he clings to life. Not with wrong view, but the accumulation of attachment to life is so strong, it cannot be eradicated yet, even though he realizes that there is momentary birth and death at each moment. This teaches us how very strong laten tendencies are, how stubborn. Is there something else you would like to discuss? And as Sarah said: there is perversion of sanna and citta with every akusala citta. At the moment of lobha-mulacitta, dosa mulacitta or moha-mulacitta realities are seen in a distorted way. Akusala is not seen as akusala. Akusala is ugly, but when it arises it is not seen as such.. Han, another subject. You wrote: Han, you should not think in this way. I know with the words above you wanted to express appreciation. You are always kind, humble and without any pretenses, and I appreciate this so much. But I learnt that thinking oneself less than others is also a form of mana, conceit. I learnt this, but of course it is hard to apply and to realize when it arises. I hope you will just write from your heart, not minding about this or that person who is better, equal or less. There are no dhamma giants, there is just Dhamma. Whatever you write has substance, it is worth while. Nina. #65809 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 7:20 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe 139. nilovg Dear friends, There are also sobhana cittas arising in our life, cittas which are accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. Three among the sobhana cetasikas are hetu, root. They are: alobha (non-attachment), adosa (non- aversion) and amoha or paññå, wisdom. Sobhana cittas are always accompanied by the two sobhana hetus of alobha and adosa and they may or may not be accompanied by paññå. Thus, sobhana cittas are sahetuka, accompanied by hetus. When we perform dåna (generosity), observe síla (morality) or apply ourselves to bhåvanå (which comprises samatha, vipassanå and the study or teaching of Dhamma), there are kusala cittas, accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. Thus, kusala cittas are among the sobhana cittas. The kusala cittas which perform dåna, observe síla or apply themselves to bhåvanå are cittas belonging to the lowest plane of consciousness, the ``sense sphere''; they are kåmåvacara cittas. Kåmåvacara cittas are the cittas we have in daily life, when, for example, we are seeing, thinking or wishing for something. Sometimes kåmåvacara cittas arise with sobhana hetus (beautiful roots), sometimes with akusala hetus, and sometimes without any hetus. Dåna, síla and bhåvanå is performed by kåmåvacara kusala cittas; these kinds of kusala kamma can be performed in daily life, where there are sense-impressions. Kåmåvacara kusala cittas are called mahå-kusala cittas (``mahå'' means ``many'' or ``great''). For those who attain jhåna (absorption, developed in samatha, tranquil meditation) there is at that moment no seeing, hearing or any other sense-impression; then the citta is not kåmåvacara citta, but it is of a higher plane of consciousness. The jhånacittas can be rúpåvacara cittas (rúpa-jhånacittas) or arúpåvacara cittas (arúpa jhånacittas). However, while one is developing samatha the cittas are mahå-kusala cittas before one attains jhåna. When enlightenment is attained and the citta experiences nibbåna, the citta is lokuttara bhúmi, of the ``supramundane'' plane of consciousness (bhúmi is plane). However, lokuttara kusala cittas, magga-cittas, are preceded by mahå-kusala cittas in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained. ******** Nina. #65810 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 7:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] vipallaasas and sotaapanna hantun1 Dear Joop, Thank you very much for your comprehensive post. You also raised an important question: IS IT POSSIBLE TO GET A SOTAPANNA? AND HOW? You think the answer is: no, not that difficult; and you asked me what do I think? Dear Joop, for me, I think to become a sotaapanna is difficult. Maybe it is due to my late start in life for dhamma practice. ------------------------------ I am also grateful to you for your references with regard to “the how” to become a sotaapanna. I have noted them all for further study and practice: * Stream Entry Part 1: The Way to Stream-entry prepared by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html and * Stream Entry Part 2: Stream-entry and After prepared by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html * SN 55.5 Dutiya Sariputta Sutta * MN 2 MN 2 Sabbasava Sutta: All the Fermentations, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html ------------------------------ I also like your comment: - In the quotes of Sarah the path is given in negative terms (perversions, eradicated etc) - In the Sutta-quotes the path is given in positive terms. (And I prefer the positive on; for the same reason I prefer to contemplate on the term 'metta' more than on 'adosa'; I think the positive one 'works' better') Yes, maybe it is better to think and work on positive terms. With metta and respect, Han #65811 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 7:26 am Subject: Letters on VIpassana II, 2 nilovg Dear friends, (Continuation of the dialogue between Kh Sujin and Alan Weller.) Alan : “I was looking at curtains but I did not notice the pattern of pine-apples, because I was not thinking of it. Only when someone said that there were pine-apples I recognized the pine-apples.” Kh.S. : “Because then you were thinking about it. What is seen now is just a reality and then the thinking thinks a lot. This happens all the time, no matter whether you read a book, watch T.V., look at paintings or look while you walk in the street. There can be understanding of the true nature of realities at such moments.” A. : “There are just different types of thinking when one selects things from the visible object.“ Kh.S. : “One begins to understand that there is nobody, thinking thinks only.” A. : “Thinking is just a reality which thinks. There is no one, just realities. That is the meaning of being alone.” Kh.S. : “This is the way to become detached from realities we used to take for ‘I’. There is all the time the idea of ‘I think’, ‘I see’; ‘I,I,I’, all the time. At the moments there is no attention to shape and form, awareness of realities can develop. There is not only visible object, there is also sound. Awareness can be aware of any reality, without thinking. There is sound which appears, then visible object, then sound again, all such moments are extremely short. Awareness can follow all kinds of realities.” A. : “When we pay attention to shape and form is there usually lobha (attachment)?” Kh.S. : “When the feeling is not unpleasant, thus, pleasant or indifferent, there is usually lobha. Lobha arises when we read a newspaper or look at a picture, but sati can be aware of realities in daily life. Sati should be very ‘daily’.“ A. : “I think that there is no difference between this or that particular situation.” Kh.S. : “There is no difference at all. The six doorways are the same, everywhere. One has to become detached. This cannot be achieved by a self, only by understanding. Through satipatthåna one will see more clearly one's accumulated inclinations. Satipatthåna should be naturally developed. No matter whether one moves around or looks at something, awareness can be aware and right understanding can understand. Every reality arises and then falls away very rapidly, but awareness can follow different realities which appear. Instead of thinking too much about other people, awareness can be aware of realities. We may think about others and wonder why they behave like that, but what about our own citta? Awareness leads one back to ‘one's own reality’.“ It is true, we may have aversion about someone else's behaviour, but aversion falls away and instead of thinking for a long time about it there can be awareness of whatever reality appears. ****** Nina. #65812 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] vipallaasa hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: I quoted some material in my Vis. studies, Vis. CH XVII, 116: As we read in the text of the Visuddhimagga: < he figures that formations are self, belong to a self, are lasting, pleasant, beautiful.> Here the text refers to the perversions, vipallaasa, of perception (saññaa), of citta, of wrong view. Through these perversities one regards: what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness); what is non-self (anattaa) as self; what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful. Thus, there are four perversions. The sotaapanna has eliminated the perversions of perception, citta and wrong view, that the impermanent is permanent and what is non-self as self; further, the perversion of wrong view that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. The anaagaami has eliminated: the perversions of perception and citta that the impure is pure. The arahat has eliminated the perversions of perception and citta that the painful is pleasant (Vis. XXII, 68). Thus we see that not all perversions are conditioned by wrong view. However, all of them are conditioned by ignorance. Thus, the sotaapanna still has the perversions of perception and citta that the impure is pure and the perversions of perception and citta that the painful is pleasant. He can take for sukha what is dukkha, he clings to life. Not with wrong view, but the accumulation of attachment to life is so strong, it cannot be eradicated yet, even though he realizes that there is momentary birth and death at each moment. This teaches us how very strong laten tendencies are, how stubborn. Is there something else you would like to discuss? And as Sarah said: there is perversion of sanna and citta with every akusala citta. At the moment of lobha-mulacitta, dosa mulacitta or moha-mulacitta realities are seen in a distorted way. Akusala is not seen as akusala. Akusala is ugly, but when it arises it is not seen as such.. ------------------------------ Han: Thank you very much for your elaborate explanation. It is very useful for me. There is nothing else I would like to discuss on this matter. I am very much satisfied with the explanations by you and others. ********** > Nina: Han, another subject. You wrote: Han, you should not think in this way. I know with the words above you wanted to express appreciation. You are always kind, humble and without any pretenses, and I appreciate this so much. But I learnt that thinking oneself less than others is also a form of mana, conceit. I learnt this, but of course it is hard to apply and to realize when it arises. I hope you will just write from your heart, not minding about this or that person who is better, equal or less. There are no dhamma giants, there is just Dhamma. Whatever you write has substance, it is worth while. Han: I agree with your above comments. It may be a kind of maana (conceit). I will think about it. But at the moment, I do not have the inclination to write on controversial topics. I am sorry. Respectfully, Han #65813 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 10:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply: N: "We need not think too much about the names of stages and higher stages." No, this is right. A 'stage' is, I think, non-existent ultimately. Since we can think about stages, 'stage', I think, is concept. I think that the reality can be seen in the moment, that is, what is arising, in its complexity at a given moment will display its own 'stage' by virtue of its constituents. I think this because, for example, with the maggacitta it arises in series, then the phalacitta, and then all subsequent moments are altered by what has been eradicated. In the same way that there is not, in reality, say a 'stream enterer', there is no 'stage'; there is the reality of each moment which is conditioned in so many ways by what becomes accumulated. I can't say, 'I have passed this stage' since 'I' is not. Since 'I' is not, neither is 'stage'. These are, I think, only spoken of conventionally. What do you think? I don't mean to dismiss the constituents of 'stages' when I suggest the above. N: "...If you listen to another one, I listen too and we can discuss. Soon she and Jon will upload a new one, and this contains explanations about nimitta..." Let's find that one and listen together. I'd feel very much appreciation to discuss it with you! With loving kindness, Scott. #65814 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 10:34 am Subject: awareness and thinking nilovg Dear Scott, S: Since 'I' is not, neither is 'stage'. These are, I think, only spoken of conventionally. What do you think? I don't mean to dismiss the constituents of 'stages' when I suggest the above. ------- N: I am inclined to think of stages as degrees of pa~n~naa, and pa~n~naa is a cetasika. not a person. It is all about pa~n~naa that grows, becomes more detached from conditioned realities and inclines to nibbaana. ------- N: ".. this contains explanations about nimitta..." ---- S: Let's find that one and listen together. I'd feel very much appreciation to discuss it with you! ---- N: A good idea, and let others join in. I am downloading now. Nina #65815 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 1:00 pm Subject: Re: awareness and thinking scottduncan2 Nina, > S: > Let's find that one and listen together. I'd feel very much > appreciation to discuss it with you! > ---- > N: A good idea, and let others join in. I am downloading now. > Nina Which one is it exactly? S. #65816 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 8:54 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah and all, The text: The magga-citta eradicates defilements and experiences nibbåna. The phala-citta which is the result of the magga-citta also experiences nibbåna; it does not eradicate defilements. --------------- Han: It is interesting to note that the phala-citta which is the result of the magga-citta also experiences nibbåna; but it does not eradicate defilements. Previously, I thought magga-citta and phala-citta eradicate defilements, as the two are usually mentioned together in combination as a pair. Only later, did I know that phala-citta itself is a resultant or vipaaka citta, and as such it cannot eradicate defilements. I thank Nina for bringing out this fact. Respectfully, Han #65817 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 9:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) nilovg Dear Han, it is said that at the moment of phala-citta defilements have been eradicated in accordance with that stage. Phala samaadhi is mentioned specifically in the commentaries, it is very peaceful. Nina. Op 3-dec-2006, om 5:54 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I thought magga-citta and phala-citta > eradicate defilements, as the two are usually > mentioned together in combination as a pair. Only > later, did I know that phala-citta itself is a > resultant or vipaaka citta, and as such it cannot > eradicate defilements. #65818 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 9:37 pm Subject: awareness and thinking nilovg Dear Scott, I only listened to 4 Feb. 06, a and b. Let you know when it is about nimitta. no b is very helpful: what is sati and what is not sati, and she explains that when touching hardness there ususually is thinking of some thing. When sati arises, there is no thinking, it follows the citta that experiences hardness, a very short moment. By the understanding of a characteristic there will be less attachment to these dhammas as self. A very short moment of understanding of visual object instead of thinking of a person leads to detachment. But honestly, I do not understand all this completely, I still find this subject very difficult. Nina. #65819 From: "jcmendoza1000" Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 8:58 pm Subject: 100,000 Aeons jcmendoza1000 To Everybody: The Awakened One said that the next Awakened One after Metteya will come only after 100,000 aeons. Is he speaking for all world systems here or only in this world system? Wouldn't we be dispersed from this world system after the end of the aeon? And with countless world systems in the whole universe, wouldn't there be Awakened Ones in other world systems that arise even now and after Metteya even if 100,000 aeons haven't elapsed yet? -JC #65821 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 2, 2006 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) hantun1 Dear Nina, Yes, that is it! I was looking only from the angle of “vipaaka citta.” I missed the fact that all the defilements that have to be eradicated at that stage had already been eradicated by magga-citta, and there is no defilement left to be eradicated by phala-citta at that stage of insight. So phala samaadhi must be very peaceful indeed! Thank you very much. It has been very useful for me. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > it is said that at the moment of phala-citta > defilements have been > eradicated in accordance with that stage. Phala > samaadhi is mentioned > specifically in the commentaries, it is very > peaceful. > Nina. #65822 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 12:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ( was Re: some points on art) jonoabb Hi Swee Boon Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this. nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, > >> According to the texts, it is by the development of sati that the >> sense-doors become guarded. > > Actually not quite so. > > According to MN 39, the guarding of the senses comes first before the > development of mindfulness. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html Below is an extract from the Vism explaining the guarding of the sense-doors in terms of mindfulness. It refers to a passage from MN 27 (M.i,180). The key part is in par. 56 which, in referring to MN 27 (M.i,180) gives the following explanation: (a) the words ‘left the eye faculty unguarded’ mean ‘remained with the eye door unclosed by the door-panel of mindfulness’ and (b) the words ‘enters upon the way of its restraint’ mean ‘enters upon the way of closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness’. This would be an instance of what I had in mind. Regarding the factors set out in MN 39 (BB trans: conduct and livelihood, restraint of the senses, moderation in eating, wakefulness, mindfulness and full awareness, abandoning of the hindrances, the four jhaanas, the three true knowledges) which you referred to in your reply. Your comment implies that you see these factors as being necessarily sequential, each one a prerequisite for the next. I'd be interested to hear the basis for that view. Jon Vism Ch. I 25. (v) Now here is the answer to the question, HOW MANY KINDS OF VIRTUE ARE THERE? ... [It is of four kinds as:] virtue of Patimokkha restraint, of *restraint of sense faculties*, of purification of livelihood, and that concerning requisites. 42. …(b) that described thus, ‘On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty. On hearing a sound with the ear . . . On smelling an odour with the nose . . . On tasting a flavour with the tongue . . . On touching a tangible object with the body . . . On cognizing a mental object with the mind, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which, if he left the mind faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the mind faculty, undertakes the restrain of the mind faculty’ (M.i,180), is virtue of restraint of the sense faculties. … 53. (b) Now as regards the virtue of restraint of faculties shown next to that in the way beginning ‘on seeing a visible object with the eye’, herein, … 56. As to the words ‘through which’, etc., the meaning is: by reason of which, because of which non-restraint of the eye faculty, ‘if he’, if that person, ‘left the eye faculty unguarded’, remained with the eye door unclosed by the door-panel of mindfulness, these ‘states of covetousness, etc., might invade’, might pursue, might threaten, ‘him. He enters upon the way of its restraint’: he enters upon the way of closing that eye faculty by the door-panel of mindfulness. It is the same one of whom it is said ‘he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty’. 100. (b) And … restraint of the sense faculties should be undertaken with mindfulness. For that is accomplished by mindfulness, because when the sense faculties’ functions are founded on mindfulness, there is no liability to invasion by covetousness and the rest. So, recollecting the Fire Discourse, which begins thus, ‘Better, bhikkhus, the extirpation of the eye ‘faculty by a red-hot burning blazing glowing iron spike than the apprehension of signs in the particulars of visible objects cognizable by the eye’ (S.iv, 168), this [restraint] should be properly undertaken by preventing with unremitting mindfulness any apprehension, in the objective fields consisting of visible data, etc., of any signs, etc., likely to encourage covetousness, etc., to invade consciousness occurring in connection with the eye door, and so on. #65823 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 12:13 am Subject: Re: Getting stream-enterer in this (Was: Re: [dsg] Stephen Batchelor .. jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: > Hallo all (and a special remark to Jon at the end) > > ... > > Jon, I hope you will accept that I take this topic out of our > discussion what got to much directions. > No problem, Joop. I'm happy to have come to the rescue on the old thread. Good luck with the new thread. Jon #65824 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... jonoabb Hi Scott I know this thread has moved on, but I'd like to share the thoughts I had on reading your original post. Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Sarah, connie, All, > > ... > I like to call it, "The Chinese Wife." > > While I was learning to roll dough for dumplings in the home of > Rebecca's friend from school, her mother - my dough-rolling teacher - > a Chinese woman and very kind, was discussing her impending return to > China for a visit. She was heard by me to suggest that she could > bring back with her a Chinese wife for me; she had asked moments > earlier if I was planning to re-marry, hence the statement. I was > about to laugh, since a joke is meant to elicit such a response, but I > looked first and realised she was totally serious. Despite her > sales-pitch (Chinese wives apparently are very hard workers) I > politely (I hope) declined. > > I don't intend to remarry. ... There are moments when I wonder > about this resolve (we won't go into it but anyone with libido will know). > > The world would call this unresolved grief, fear of intimacy, and > who-knows-what-other-fancy-sounding-epithet. I call it an > opportunity. > I suppose you have in mind the opportunity for the development of insight. Is there anything in the texts about the opportunities being greater unmarried than married, unattached than attached, I wonder? Is the resolve likely to be kusala? > Should one be seeking to find another dear when one > knows the Dhamma? Is this 'coldness'? Why seek attachment any more > than one finds it unbidden billions of times a day? > Good questions. Any textual references on point? > Further damaging my reputation as a human I remain, > > Scott. Further damaging my reputation as someone interested in the actual development of insight (as opposed to the mere theory of such), I remain Jon PS BTW, a great tale! Comes as no surprise to those of us living in this part of the world. On a points system you'd score incredibly high, so no need to feel overly flattered at the approach, or to rush in at the first opportunity (just kidding, of course). #65825 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 2:40 am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 118, 119 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 118, 119. Intro: In the foregoing sections, the danger and disadvantages of ignorance were shown. Ignorance leads to many kinds of wrong view. Due to ignorance one thinks of a lasting being who travelled from past lives to this life and who will travel to a next life. Ignorance conceals the danger of the cycle of birth and death. Because of ignorance one takes the suffering of being in the cycle as pleasant, one believes rebirth to be happiness. Ignorance conditions the four perversions by which one sees all dhammas of one’s life in a distorted way, as self, permanent, happiness and beautiful. In this section it is said that we are blind from birth. We are born with the latent tendency of ignorance. However, there is a way leading out of the cycle. If we listen to the Dhamma and develop understanding ignorance will be eliminated. ------------ Text Vis. 118. Thus he figures, blinded by ignorance. He is like a blind man who wanders about the earth, encountering now right and now wrong paths, now heights and now hollows, now even and now uneven ground, and so he forms formations now of merit, now of demerit, now imperturbable. -------- N: The Tiika adds to the words, ‘ Thus he figures, blinded by ignorance’, that with these ways of wrong thinking ignorance is the cause of akusala citta and conditions beings to perform formations of merit, and so on. The words ‘and so on’ or 'to begin with' (aadi) include formations of demerit and of the imperturbable. The Tiika adds that explaining the meaning of the foregoing, he said: ‘blinded by ignorance’ (avijjaaya andhiikato). ------------------ Text Vis. 119: Hence this is said: As one born blind, who gropes along Without assistance from a guide, --------- N: The Tiika explains being without a guide as without the good friend in Dhamma (kalyaa.namitta) who has reached arahatship. The guide teaches the final knowledge of the arahat or the understanding of what is even and uneven and leads beings to nibbaana. According to the Tiika ‘without a guide’ means without such a person who is a good guide. The good guide teaches what is even and what is uneven (samavisama), what is right and what is wrong. -------- Text Vis.: Chooses a road that may be right At one time, at another wrong, So while the foolish man pursues The round of births without a guide, Now to do merit he may choose And now demerit in such plight. But when the Dhamma he comes to know And penetrates the truths besides, ---------- N: The Tiika elaborates on the words: ‘ But when the Dhamma he comes to know’ (~natvaa so dhamma.m), stating that he has understood the Dhamma he has heard, the explanation of the four Truths, when dwelling with a noble person (sappurisa), or that he has penetrated the most excellent of all dhammas, nibbaana dhamma, by pa~n~naa accompanying maggacitta (magga-~naa.na). ---------- Text Vis.: Then ignorance is put to flight At last, and he in peace may go. This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With ignorance as condition there are formations'. ---------- N: As to the expression, he will walk in peace (upasanto), the Tiika adds that he is in peace after he has completely overcome ignorance (avijjuupasama) by the attainment of what is most excellent (agga-m- agga).The Tiika refers to the two elements of nibbaana: sa- upaadisesanibbaanadhaatu: the element of nibbaana with the khandhas remaining, and anupaadisesanibbaanadhaatu: nibbaana without the khandhas remaining, which pertains to the final passing away of an arahat. The Tiika explains that when the arahat is still alive he leads his life for the welfare of other beings (sattaana.m hitacariyaaya), and he will dwell in happiness in this world (di.t.thadhammasukhavihaara). --------- Conclusion: Ignorance conceals the true nature of realities, but when we meet the good friend in Dhamma (kalyaa.namitta) we have the opportunity to listen to the Dhamma and develop understanding of realities. As understanding develops, ignorance is eliminated very gradually. Understanding is like a light that dissipates the darkness of ignorance. The Tiika emphasizes the importance of meeting the good friend in Dhamma, of listening and understanding what one hears. The Buddha and the arahats, when they had realized nibbaana with the khandhas remaining before they finally passed away, led their lives for the sake of the welfare of other beings. They were filled with the highest compassion for them in teaching the Dhamma that would lead out of the cycle of birth and death. ******* Nina. #65826 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio nilovg Dear Han, When listening to Febr. 2, 006, b, I thought of you. Before you had a question about sakkayaditthi and attavaaduupadaana, the latter being wider in meaning but including sakkayaditthi as Sarah explained. Here is the discussion which may be of interest to you. Nina. Op 3-dec-2006, om 8:18 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Yes, that is it! I was looking only from the angle of > “vipaaka citta #65827 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 3:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio hantun1 Dear Nina, You wrote: “Here is the discussion which may be of interest to you.” But where is the discussion, please? Is that audio? Do you not have a transcript? I can never study by audio. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > When listening to Febr. 2, 006, b, I thought of you. > Before you had a > question about sakkayaditthi and attavaaduupadaana, > the latter being > wider in meaning but including sakkayaditthi as > Sarah explained. Here > is the discussion which may be of interest to you. > Nina. #65828 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 4:06 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo jonoabb Hi Phil Coming in as requested to comment on the exchange between Acharn Sujin and me that you refer to below. Phil wrote: > > Hi Ken > > Sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the > Buddha didn't urge his followers to meditate. (ie. by sitting at the > root of a tree etc with legs folded, spine erect etc.) There sometimes > seems to be a denial that there was such an exhortation from the > Buddha. In one talk, when Jon asks Acharn Sujin about the "there are > the roots of trees ...(snip) meditate or you will regret it" verse, she > says "The Buddha pointed out." No, the Buddha didn't "point out", he > exhorted. > As I recall, the point being made was that this was not an *order* being given but a pointing out (or exhortation if you like). Specifically, what was being pointed out was the need for the development of vipassana, and the consequence of not doing so (i.e., regret). > Whether modern teachers and students meditate with proper motivation > and understanding is another matter, one that I still question as I get > into meditation. But no question whatsoever that the Buddha urged his > follow to do meditate, which does not mean contemplate or reflect in > daily life. (Though these are also deeply helpful.) > I don't think that because the Buddha was referring to empty places, roots of trees, etc we should conclude he was talking about what we understand by formal meditation, or that these exhortations were directed to *all* followers of the Buddha. I think it reflects the class of bhikkhus to whom he was speaking, namely, bhikkhus for whom empty places, roots of trees, etc were already (or were potentially) an aspect of their lives. Just like his comments about the monk's life: he extolled the virtues of that life properly lived, but did not recommend it for everyone. Jon #65829 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 4:19 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 598- The Stages of Insight(t) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd It is useful to learn about the different stages of insight. It reminds us that we have only a limited understanding of realities, but this should not discourage us. The only way to develop insight is to begin at this moment to be mindful of whatever reality appears. We cannot expect the arising of insight-knowledge soon, not even during this life. We have to continue to be mindful of nåma and rúpa and develop understanding of them. Only when understanding has been developed it can distinguish the characteristic of nåma from the characteristic of rúpa. Throughout the development of insight the objects of understanding are nåma and rúpa and one has to continue being mindful of them. Even when the stage of the sotåpanna has been realized one has to continue developing insight. The sotåpanna has realized the four noble Truths, but there are many degrees of realizing them. Only when paññå has been developed to the degree that arahatship is attained, it has reached completion and then all defilements are eradicated. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65830 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 4:51 am Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Sorry, I had thought momentarily to add a caveat, for those in committed relationships, that the statement was in no way an indictment of the married life, and then figured that this would be understood. J: "I suppose you have in mind the opportunity for the development of insight. Is there anything in the texts about the opportunities being greater unmarried than married, unattached than attached, I wonder?" No, not really. I know that insight needs no special situation to develop. I also know of the futility of setting the scene or trying to arrange things to make more insight happen. I certainly was not suggesting that it would be favourable to the rapid development of insight were one to be single. It is in reading here, and in considering the arguments for and against the whole thing about 'formal practice' that I've come to agree that one can't make things happen. I've read some very good exhortations by the Buddha to married couples (can't cite the source now). I'd guess that there is nothing in the texts to suggest greater opportunity. There is the whole going forth thing but I think that the 'success' of that, as with anything, depends on more than just the act of 'going forth', or of marrying or not marrying for that matter. J: "Is the resolve likely to be kusala?" Do you mean the 'resolve' not to seek to get into another relationship? It has mathematically, I suppose, a fifty percent chance of being kusala. For me, the resolve seems to have already made itself, at least going by now. S: "Should one be seeking to find another dear when one knows the Dhamma? Is this 'coldness'? Why seek attachment any more than one finds it unbidden billions of times a day?" J: "Good questions. Any textual references on point?" No. Do you need me to seek them out? J: "Further damaging my reputation as someone interested in the actual development of insight (as opposed to the mere theory of such), I remain..." My apologies for what seems, at least by what I'm reading in to your reply, to have been the inappropriate post regarding my own stance on seeking a partner after losing one. Please let me know if you consider me to be 'someone interested in the...mere theory' so that I might consider this. Sincerely, Scott. #65831 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 4:57 am Subject: Re: Reconsidering Right Effort (Re: [dsg] Stressing sila ...) jonoabb Hi Scott (and Howard) Thanks for the quotes. Great stuff! Here's some more from Vism Ch XXII dealing with the four right efforts as part of the 37 'states partaking in enlightenment' (bodhi-pakkhiya-dhamma's). Among other interesting snippets: "It is a name for energy". Jon XXII, 32- [II. THE STATES ASSOCIATED WITH THE PATH, ETC.] << << << 35. … Or alternatively: by its means people endeavour rightly, thus it is right endeavour. … It is a name for energy. It accomplishes the functions of abandoning arisen unprofitable things, preventing the arising of those not yet arisen, arousing unarisen unprofitable things, and maintaining those already arisen; thus it is fourfold. That is why 'four right endeavours' is said. 39. Now in the prior stage when mundane insight is occurring, they [the 37 states] are found in a plurality of consciousnesses as follows: [J: I summarise: (a) one or other of the 4 foundations of mindfulness, depending on whether the object of that moment is body, feeling, mind, or mental object; (b) one or other of the 4 endeavours, depending on the nature of the effort, (c) one or other of the 4 roads to power of zeal/energy/[purity of] consciousness/inquiry, and (d) one or other of the 3 abstinences, depending on the nature of the abstention. Regarding (b) above the text says:] And: - at the time when, on seeing an unprofitable state arisen in someone else, which has not yet arisen in his own person, he strives for its non-arising thus, ‘I shall not behave as he has done in whom this is now arisen, and so this will not arise in me’, then he has the first right endeavour; - when, seeing something unprofitable in his own behaviour, he strives to abandon it, then he has the second; - when he strives to arouse jhana or insight so far unarisen in this person, he has the third; and - when he arouses again and again what has already arisen so that it shall not diminish, he has the fourth. ... At the time of arising of any one of the four kinds of path knowledge, all these states are found in a single consciousness. 40. When these are found in a single consciousness in this way, ... the one kind of energy is called 'four right endeavours' because it accomplishes the four functions beginning with preventing the arising of the unarisen unprofitable. >> >> >> Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Howard and Jon, > > Dhammasa"ga.ni: > > "[22] What on that occasion is right endeavour (sammaa-vaayaamo)? > > Answer as for the 'faculty of energy' > > "[13] What on that occasion is the faculty of energy (viriyindriya.m)? > > "The mental inception of energy which there is on that occasion, the > striving and the onward effort, the exertion and endeavour, the zeal > and ardour, the vigour and fortitude, the state of unfaltering effort, > the state of sustained desire, the state of unflinching endurance and > solid grip of the burden, energy, energy as faculty and as power, > right endeavour - this is the energy that there then is." > ... > #65832 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Matt matt roke wrote: > Hi Jon > >> Jon: I may not have made my question clear. Here it is again, but worded >> differently: If an 'understanding of no-self and no people' is the reason >> for being incapable of *killing* another being, why would it not also mean >> that one is incapable of *inflicting violence on* another being? >> > > I would think that *inflicting violence on another being* would require the > desire and intention to cause bodily harm to a person and then doing it. And > I think that there would also have to be dislike for the person. > > The only reasons I can think of that would motivate a person to hurt someone > would be due to envy, fear of being hurt of killed, expecting some return > for causing harm or having been hurt of deprived of something by that > person. I don’t think any of these would motivate a sotapanna to hurt > someone. > > Sotapannas can have dosa due to accumulations, such as regret for something > done or not done or sadness over the loss of someone dear to them, but in > these cases the dosa is not directed at anyone with malice. > > If, due to accumulations, a sotapanna saw a person and had dosa, then he > would understand it as impermanent conditioned realities and it would not > condition the intention to harm or the act of harming because there is an > understanding of no self and no one. > OK, so you are saying that a sotapanna is incapable of *inflicting harm* of any (physical) kind on another being. That would be consistent with your original proposition that included the assertion that a sotapanna is incapable of *killing* another being. I recall having seen references to a sotapanna not killing, but not to not inflicting harm. However, I don't profess to know/remember for sure one way or the other. By the way, I suppose 'inflicting harm' would include any kind of touching done in anger, such as restraining (someone who was bent on harming us/ones dear to us), and not just to a touching that causes pain. Is this how you would see it too? Jon #65833 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 5:08 am Subject: Re: Antw.: A fix on [dsg] external rupas , morality. jonoabb Phil and Nina Coming in to (again) clarify some reported comments of mine. Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > > -------- > > Ph:My main objection with her approach is this idea that unless it is > accompanied by an appreciation of not-self, abstaining from akusala > has no benefit and is - to use Jon's words - only replacing one kind > of akusala with another. That may be technically true (lobha or self- > identity might deepen if we are thinking about being a better > person) but to think of a world in which people hesitate to abstain > from akusala because they think self is involved is a bit > frightening. > > ---- > > N: I am sure nobody will argue that abstention from akusala is > kusala. Perhaps what Jon said was in another context. Yes, it's mainly a matter of context. When the texts talk about abstention they refer to the kusala citta that abstains. The situation with us, however, is that any trying to 'deal with' akusala that has already arisen is likely not to be kusala citta, in which case we are indeed 'only replacing one kind of akusala with another', as I see it. Jon #65834 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Sorry, I had thought momentarily to add a caveat, for those in > committed relationships, that the statement was in no way an > indictment of the married life, and then figured that this would be > understood. > Hey, c'mon! I wasn't taking you that way! > ... > J: "Further damaging my reputation as someone interested in the > actual development of insight (as opposed to the mere theory of such), > I remain..." > > My apologies for what seems, at least by what I'm reading in to your > reply, to have been the inappropriate post regarding my own stance on > seeking a partner after losing one. Please let me know if you > consider me to be 'someone interested in the...mere theory' so that I > might consider this. > No, no! That was making fun of myself (as I thought you were)! Crossed wires, I'm afraid! Never mind. Jon #65835 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 5:50 am Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Good, just checking: J: "Hey, c'mon! I wasn't taking you that way!" Chalk it up to my authority complex. J: "No, no! That was making fun of myself (as I thought you were)! Yeah, I was. I guess one's sense of humour arises and falls away according to conditions... J: "Crossed wires, I'm afraid! Never mind." Not so fast, Jon. Now that I've got you straight, I will mind, if you don't mind. Give me time to formulate a response in the proper spirit. I am careful with my reponses and respect the need to have a proper tone withing the forum (which you host, boss-man) so I'll get back to you so we can discuss. Cool? Scott. #65836 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... jonoabb Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Good, just checking: > > J: "Hey, c'mon! I wasn't taking you that way!" > > Chalk it up to my authority complex. > > J: "No, no! That was making fun of myself (as I thought you were)! > > Yeah, I was. I guess one's sense of humour arises and falls away > according to conditions... > > J: "Crossed wires, I'm afraid! Never mind." > > Not so fast, Jon. Now that I've got you straight, I will mind, if you > don't mind. Give me time to formulate a response in the proper > spirit. I am careful with my reponses and respect the need to have a > proper tone withing the forum (which you host, boss-man) so I'll get > back to you so we can discuss. Cool? > That's more like it. Who was that guy anyway? Cool. Jon #65837 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 6:32 am Subject: Re: awareness and thinking scottduncan2 Dear Nina, All, I found the session on nimitta; February 2, 2006, a. Here are some quotes; very important and interesting: "In reality when there is the realisation that there is nothing permanent, what appears now is only nimitta." "[Nimitta is] the succession of the reality which keeps on arising and falling away through one doorway at a time." "The succession of the arising and falling away of ruupa, vedanaa, sa~n~na, the sankharas and vi~n~nana are all nimittas." "What appears now is the nimitta of reality. We begin to understand different levels of the meaning of nimitta and after that...when just a characteristic appears to the developed pa~n~na its the understanding of the nimitta of that characteristic - only one characteristic." "This is yoniso manasikaara itself." "Now seeing is exactly the same. Visible object appears as visible object but the moment of understanding visible object - visible object is exactly the same. If one is trying very hard to make it different that is wrong because the development of pa~n~na is the development of pa~n~na, not the development of 'I who can do this or I who can do that' at all. So at the moment of appearing of visible object right now - very natural - there can be moment of understanding the characteristic that's just this - its a reality, and at that moment we can use the term 'no attention to concept' even [though] there [are] the things like before, its the beginning of understanding. The seed of the understanding of the reality which is now appearing...even [though] there [are] many moments of seeing and concept...there can be the process of vaara of the moment of understanding visible object as just that. And this is the development of sati and pa~n~na..." For further discussion... Scott. #65838 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 6:59 am Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 J: "...Who was that guy anyway?" Mr. Nervous. A product of an unanalalysed bit of the Oedipal thing...now totally sorted out again Dad - I mean Jon. S. #65839 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 8:34 am Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Here's a start regarding: J: "I suppose you have in mind the opportunity for the development of insight. Is there anything in the texts about the opportunities being greater unmarried than married, unattached than attached, I wonder?" There is: SN 54: 189 190 (Bh. Bodhi) "What is the support of human beings? What is the best companion here? The creatures who dwell on earth - By what do they sustain their life?" "Sons are the support of human beings, A wife the best companion; The creatures who dwell on the earth Sustain their life by rain." Spk: "...A wife is the best companion because one can confide in her one's most personal secrets." Or, then again: SN 54: 199-200 "What is a person's partner? What is it that instructs him? Taking delight in what is a mortal Released from all suffering?" "Faith is a person's partner, And wisdom instructs him. Taking delight in Nibbaana, a mortal Is released from all suffering." Or: SN 76: 237 "Life undergoes destruction night and day; Women are the stain of the holy life; Here's where menfolk are enmeshed. Austerity and the holy life - That is the bath without water." Both sides supported. Scott. #65840 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 10:39 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 140 nilovg Dear friends, We would like to have kusala cittas more often. We may think that the circumstances of our life or other people hinder the arising of kusala citta, but this is not so. The real cause that kusala cittas seldom arise is our lack of development of what is wholesome. If we know the conditions for the development of kusala, there will be more kusala cittas in our life. Through the study of the Dhamma we will learn how to develop kusala. If we have not studied Dhamma we may think that we are performing kusala while we have, on the contrary, akusala cittas. For example, we may think that when we give something away, there are only kusala cittas. However, lobha-múla-cittas may also arise. We may give something to friends and expect them to be kind to us in return. This is not kusala but lobha, attachment. When we study Dhamma we learn that the pure way of giving is giving without expecting anything in return. When we perform wholesome deeds our aim should be to have less selfishness, this is beneficial both for ourselves and for others. People have different accumulations and these are conditions for the arising of kusala cittas and akusala cittas. For example, when people visit a temple and see others presenting gifts to the monks, they may, because of their accumulations, react in different ways. Some people may appreciate someone else's good deeds; others may not be interested at all. If one would know the value of kusala and realize that appreciating the good deeds of others is a way of dåna, one would use more opportunities to develop kusala. If the Buddha had not attained enlightenment and taught Dhamma we would not have any means of knowing ourselves thoroughly; we would not have a precise knowledge of our kusala cittas and akusala cittas and of the conditions for their arising. The Buddha taught people how to develop wholesomeness and to eradicate defilements, and therefore, living according to the precepts and performing other kinds of wholesomeness is the way to pay respect to him. We read in the Mahå- Parinibbåna-sutta (Dialogues of the Buddha II, no. 16, chapter V, 137,138) that before the Buddha passed away, the twin Såla trees, which were full of flowers although it was not the season, dropped their flowers all over his body, that heavenly Mandårava-flowers and sandalwood-powder descended on his body, and that heavenly music sounded, out of reverence for him. The Buddha said to Ånanda: Now it is not thus, Ånanda, that the Tathågata is rightly honoured, reverenced, venerated, held sacred or revered. But the monk or the nun, the devout man or the devout woman, who continually fulfils all the greater and lesser duties, who is correct in life, walking according to the precepts--it is he who rightly honours, reverences, venerates, holds sacred, and reveres the Tathågata with the worthiest homage. Therefore, O Ånanda, be constant in the fulfilment of the greater and of the lesser duties, and be correct in life, walking according to the precepts; and thus, Ånanda, should it be taught. We all have in our daily life opportunities for dåna and síla. As regards bhåvanå, this comprises samatha and vipassanå, and the studying of Dhamma or explaining it to others. Not only the monks but also laypeople can study and teach Dhamma. We read in the Mahå- Parinibbåna-sutta (chapter III, 112, 113) that the Buddha told Ånanda that Måra, the Evil One, had said to the Buddha after his enlightenment that it was now the time for him to pass away. The Buddha said: And when he had thus spoken, Ånanda, I addressed Måra, the Evil One, and said:--``I shall not pass away, O Evil One! until not only the monks and nuns of the Order, but also the laydisciples of either sex shall have become true hearers, wise and well trained, ready and learned, carrying the teachings in their memory, masters of the lesser corollaries that follow from the larger doctrine, correct in life, walking according to the precepts--until they, having thus themselves learned the doctrine, shall be able to tell others of it, preach it, make it known, establish it, open it, minutely explain it and make it clear--until they, when others start vain doctrine easy to be refuted by the truth, shall be able in refuting it to spread the wonder-working truth abroad! I shall not die until this pure religion of mine shall have become successful, prosperous, widespread, and popular in all its full extent--until, in a word, it shall have been well proclaimed among men!'' ****** Nina. #65841 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 10:42 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, II, 3. nilovg Dear friends, Some people, when they hear about citta, cetasika and rúpa, say that they do not like the Abhidhamma, that they prefer the suttas. They think that the Abhidhamma is too theoretical. It depends on one's personal inclination to what extent one will study the Abhidhamma, but if there is no knowledge at all about nåma, the reality which experiences something, and rúpa, the reality which does not experience anything, one cannot develop the eightfold path. One does not know what the object of awareness is. One does not know that a concept such as the whole body or a person cannot be object of awareness, but only an object of thinking. One nåma or rúpa at a time as it appears through one of the six doors can be object of awareness. If one begins to be aware of the characteristic of seeing which appears, or the characteristic of visible object, or the characteristic of any other reality which appears, one will understand that the Abhidhamma explains the realities of our daily life. Also the suttas are full of Abhidhamma, one cannot really understand them without any knowledge of paramattha dhammas. Time and again we read in the suttas about the objects which are experienced through the six doors, we read about seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, the experience of tangible object and the experience of objects through the mind-door. If we do not know that the experiences of the objects through the six doorways are different cittas, we take all experiences for self. We learn through the Abhidhamma and also through the suttas that cittas are accompanied by different cetasikas, mental factors. Not everybody is inclined to study cetasikas in detail, but if one does not know anything about them one does not see that akusala citta is so different from kusala citta because they are accompanied by different types of cetasikas. Defilements as well as wholesome qualities are cetasikas which accompany citta. The factors of the eightfold Path, such as right understanding and right mindfulness, are cetasikas. When these factors which accompany kusala citta arise, the eightfold Path is being developed, just for a moment, and then citta and the accompanying cetasikas fall away. Sati and paññå can be accumulated and then there are conditions for another moment of developing the eightfold Path, later on. Understanding develops from moment to moment. If we understand that life exists only in one moment, we shall be less inclined to believe that there is a self who could develop the eightfold Path continuously. This would not be according to the truth, because the next moment is likely to be akusala. If we know that right effort is a cetasika which arises just for a moment we shall cling less to an idea of self who exerts effort in the development of the eightfold Path. ******* Nina. #65842 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 11:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking nilovg Dear Scott, thank you for the quote, it may not be Feb 2? I have to look. There will be more talks on nimitta in the course of these sessions. I am very slow, since i alternate with Thai. I want to add something to yesterday's quote: Just before this talk I mentioned Phil's Q.: How can there be awareness after seeing? Kh Sujin remarked on this that there is not enough detachment. This is worth thinking over. When we ask: how, it seems that we can do this or that in order to have sati. Then we cling to an idea of my sati I can manipulate. And here she refers to detachment from the beginning Phil was wondering about. Our disposition may not be good yet. It is not possible that a teacher tells us to do this or that so that sati arises. I find it very good that Kh Sujin pays attention to our way of asking, it is rather basic. Nina. Op 3-dec-2006, om 15:32 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > In reality when there is the realisation that there is nothing > permanent, what appears now is only nimitta." > > "[Nimitta is] the succession of the reality which keeps on arising and > falling away through one doorway at a time." #65843 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio nilovg Dear Han, I was speaking of the DSG org audio Sarah and Jon just uploaded. I do not know whether you have a broadband? If you click on them they can be heard. They are at the bottom of all those numbers of messages. If it is difficult, I transcribe this part for you. Nina. Op 3-dec-2006, om 12:53 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But where is the discussion, please? > Is that audio? > Do you not have a transcript? > I can never study by audio. #65844 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 12:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for a Week upasaka_howard Hi, Han - Not much internet time for me while here in Texas, but I saw this post of yours and felt *obliged* to reply: Your comments are wildly off the the mark! You say much too much that is positive about me, and absurdly too much that is negative about you!! (Also, don't forget that even negative comparisons of oneself with others is "conceit", my friend.) You are an extraordinarily knowledgeable and articulate Buddhist - an impressive Dhamma scholar! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: a star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ -----Original Message----- From: hantun1@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for a Week Dear Sarah (and Howard), > Sarah: I'm sure Han would also sympathise with your recent concerns and have been following the discussions closely. Han, can I encourage you to add any of your reflections on the sotapanna-sila/ reasons for not killing/mixed motives whilst 'doing good' and other recent controversial topics? ---------- Han: Sarah, I appreciate your encouragement. I respect Howard and appreciate all his posts. But I am reluctant to add my reflections on those controversial topics, because my reflections will be very elementary. Howard and those members with whom he is discussing are dhamma literary giants, and I feel that they are a class of their own, a class which is far up for me to join. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > I'm sure Han would also sympathise with your recent > concerns and have been > following the discussions closely. Han, can I > encourage you to add any of > your reflections on the sotapanna-sila/reasons for > not killing/mixed > motives whilst 'doing good' and other recent > controversial topics? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > #65845 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. I have two difficulties with audio. First, I do not even know what a broadband is. My computer knowledge is very elementary. Second, we (Burmese) pronounce Pali words differently from people in Thailand and Sri Lanka, for example. We pronounce ‘tha’ for ‘sa’ in Pali. We pronounce ‘saitta’ for ‘citta’ and so on. I will be most grateful if you could kindly transcribe this part for me, please. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > I was speaking of the DSG org audio Sarah and Jon > just uploaded. I do > not know whether you have a broadband? If you click > on them they can > be heard. They are at the bottom of all those > numbers of messages. > If it is difficult, I transcribe this part for you. > Nina. #65846 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for a Week hantun1 Dear Howard, I wrote that post with all my sincerity that came right from my heart. But you are right. That might be my conceit! With metta and respect, Han --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Han - > > Not much internet time for me while here in > Texas, but I saw this post of yours and felt > *obliged* to reply: Your comments are wildly off the > the mark! You say much too much that is positive > about me, and absurdly too much that is negative > about you!! (Also, don't forget that even negative > comparisons of oneself with others is "conceit", my > friend.) You are an extraordinarily knowledgeable > and articulate Buddhist - an impressive Dhamma > scholar! #65847 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 8:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for a Week sarahprocter... Dear Han, Howard & Nina, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Howard, > > I wrote that post with all my sincerity that came > right from my heart. > But you are right. That might be my conceit! .... S: It's an interesting point. While it's true that comparisons (even those considering others to be 'superior' to us in some way) always smack of maana (conceit), I think it's only the rt understanding at any momement that can know, rather than blanket statements about the words used. Just as we discussed in the examples of harsh speech that the words themselves are not necessarily indicative of the mental states (a murderer may say 'may you sleep peacefully' and a mother may say something harsh sounding, but with kindness), so too one may say politely and respectfully that someone is very wise and that he himself knows very little. I think there are also many cultural factors at work here too. Only sati and panna will know. (Of course, there are bound to be lots of different kusala and akusala cittas arising and falling away in most 'situations'). In any case, I appreciate the respect that both Han and Howard show in the exchange! Metta, Sarah ========== > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, Han - > > > > Not much internet time for me while here in > > Texas, but I saw this post of yours and felt > > *obliged* to reply: Your comments are wildly off the > > the mark! You say much too much that is positive > > about me, and absurdly too much that is negative > > about you!! (Also, don't forget that even negative > > comparisons of oneself with others is "conceit", my > > friend.) You are an extraordinarily knowledgeable > > and articulate Buddhist - an impressive Dhamma > > scholar! #65848 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 9:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Howard, Scott & all, As 'nimitta' has come up, I'd like to refer to some notes I made before and also add to an earlier discussion you and Howard were having as well. Firstly, to repeat some notes I just came across of comments of A.Sujin's which come up later in the Feb, 2006 audio discussions (8th Feb P (1) session, I think - the topic comes up several times in the series). -What is left all the time after the dhamma has fallen away is the sign, like the sign of visible object, but each reality has fallen away already. -When satipatthana has really developed, there is the beginning of seeing the difference between concept and reality, but it's still nimitta (sign) unless it's the clear realizing of the rising and falling away of realities (at the third stage of insight). Before that there has to be the clear knowledge of the distinction between concepts and realities, the knowledge of when there is and is not sati (awareness) and the distinction between namas and rupas. -At the moments of understanding the arising and falling away of dhammas, there is the understanding that the nimitta is a characteristic of a reality which arises and falls away. - Even after the moments of the direct experiencing of the arising and falling away of realities, the characteristics appearing are the nimitta of realities. Only nibbana doesn't have nimitta. -After experiencing the rising and falling away of dhammas, we know what is meant by a dream. Nothing is left, so we get closer and closer to understanding reality as not sukkha because of its 3 characteristics until nibbana (is realized) as different from all realities which keep on arising endlessly when there are conditions. -Nimitta is the shadow of reality, not the shadow of a word. -When panna grows, it knows the difference between conditioned dhammas which rise and fall away and have nimitta and the unconditioned dhamma which doesn't have any nimitta. ***** S: A little while ago, Nina and Howard were having an exchange on nimitta and I had started to chip in with a reply when I got sick: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: -------- > Kh Sujin said: dhammas are arising and > > falling away very quickly and only the nimitta, the sign remains. > > There is the nimitta of rupakkhandha, saññakkhandha, of all khandhas. .... S: Just to add to this, at each moment now, sanna makes a sign of the 5 khandhas. This is why each khandha has its nimitta, because the khandhas arise and fall away so fast that without highly developed panna, it has to be the 'sign' that is marked, just like in the example given in the texts of the swirling fire-stick. .... Howard:> What khandha do nimittas fall under? If the sign is something that > remains, what is it? Nama or rupa, of what exact sort, and how long > does it last? > (Or do nimittas constitute a 6th khandha?) .... S: No, nimittas are the signs of the khandhas. What is left all the time after the dhamma has fallen away is the sign, like the sign of visible object or sound. But each one has fallen away already. It's a shadow of reality. A shadow isn't a khandha itself. When panna grows it knows the difference between the conditioned dhammas which rise and fall and have nimitta and the unconditioned dhamma which doesn't have any nimitta. When we appreciate that what appears now is only the nimitta of a khandha, it helps us to see that we live in the world of nimittas, a kind of dream world as has been stressed so much. It's only when there is the direct understanding of the arising and falling away of realities (khandhas), that they are directly known exactly as they are and there is then the beginning of the turning away from conditioned dhammas. Only then do we really know what is meant by 'dream' with nothing left behind of the dhamma which has fallen away. We then get closer to understanding realities are not sukkha in anyway because of their 3 characteristics (as stressed in the notes above). ... > N: There are different meanings of nimitta. It can be as said above, > the mental image of for example a kasina. When one looks at it again > and again one acquires a mental image and does not need to look at it > any longer. > Further, it can mean the outward appearance and details of things by > which we are misled. We believe that we see people and things and > cling to all the details. This is the second meaning. > Then there is a third meaning and this pertains to sankhaara nimitta, > the nimitta of conditioned dhammas, of the five khandhas, of nama and > rupa. .... S: I raised the different meanings in more recent discussions and I recall K.Sujin more recently as having stressed that though there can be said to be different meanings or aspects, all refer to nimitta, the same term. For those who've developed panna, they still live in the world of nimittas. No one can change this. Even an arahant who understands perfectly what is real still experiences nimitta of khandhas. He/she still attends to nimitta anubyanjanna and knows his name or that this is a pen or glass of water. But of course, there are not the conditions to get 'lost in thought' or swayed by kilesa in anyway. There are no anusayas with the sanna at all. Sanna still makes its sign at each moment like now, but the difference is that usually there's no panna with it for us. I remember she stressed that the difference is in the vijja or avijja arising. The arahant still pays attention - it's not a matter of getting rid of nimitta at all. The cetasikas perform their functions like before, but without kilesa. Even though he doesn't pay as much attention as worldly people do, this doesn't mean no attention. He/she still thinks a lot as well. The aim is not to stop thinking. Nimitta are still experienced because of the rapidity of the succession of rising and falling realities. So, I think it's the same meaning when we refer to sanna making a sign of the 5 khandhas as when we refer to the nimitta of the khandhas appearing now. Also, when we refer to the nimitta experienced by jhana cittas, again it's still nimitta, but a different aspect or level because of different kinds of cittas arising as I understand. .... > N<...>. > Nimitta in the second sense is an image of lasting beings and things. > Nimitta as sankhara nimitta is referring to conditioned dhammas and > it is not the same as the second sense. > I said that the nimitta remains, but not in the sense of a lasting > thing. It is just a reminder of the rapidity with which the nama or > rupa that was the object of mindfulness has fallen away. .... S: We read that panna leads out of sankhara nimitta but actually this is referring to the leading away from wrong view, leading away with detachment from clinging with wrong view. K.Sujin referred to how no door, no hole in the roof is found as long as there is no understanding. Even at the first 2 stages of insight, the panna is not strong enough to directly penetrate the paramattha dhammas as opposed to the nimittas of paramattha dhammas, because the direct knowledge of the rise and fall of dhammas hasn't been fully realized. .... > When there is mindfulness we do not have to think of a mentally > constructed reproduction as the actual present object. That thinking > takes too long. There is just a beginning to attend to > characteristics that appear. Then hardness, then visible object, then > seeing, then unpleasant feeling. .... S: Yes, true. And if there's no awareness cnow of the characteristics of dhammas appearing, such as seeing and visible object, there's no need to be concerned about nimittas! Metta, Sarah --- Scott Duncan wrote: > I found the session on nimitta; February 2, 2006, a. > > Here are some quotes; very important and interesting: > > "In reality when there is the realisation that there is nothing > permanent, what appears now is only nimitta." > > "[Nimitta is] the succession of the reality which keeps on arising and > falling away through one doorway at a time." > > "The succession of the arising and falling away of ruupa, vedanaa, > sa~n~na, the sankharas and vi~n~nana are all nimittas." > > "What appears now is the nimitta of reality. We begin to understand > different levels of the meaning of nimitta and after that...when just > a characteristic appears to the developed pa~n~na its the > understanding of the nimitta of that characteristic - only one > characteristic." <...> #65849 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 9:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] vipallaasas and sotaapanna sarahprocter... Hi Mike & Han, --- "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Han, > > Thanks so much for this--this is the most interesting new material I've > seen > (or noticed) posted here in years. Fascinating and important I think, > especially given the Vsm. citation. .... S: Mike, could you elaborate a little more on the importance of the material as you see it. I think it may be helpful for us all to hear a little more of your refelections. .... > From: han tun > I found the following in a book by a Burmese Sayadaw. > It was in Question and Answer format. <...> > Sayadaw: A sotaapanna has completely eradicated twenty > sakkaaya-ditthi, or in other words, ditthi vipallaasa, > perversion of views. .... S: This point may relate to our earlier discussion (which Nina referred to recently) on the distinction between sakkaaya-ditthi, attanu-ditthi and ditthi in general. As I understand the term 'ditthi' in general (referring to all wrong views), it includes but is wider than sakkaaya-ditthi. So when ditthi vipallaasa are eradicated, not only sakkaaya-ditthi, but all kinds of wrong views should be stressed. (Of course, all other kinds of wrong view depend on sakkaaya-ditthi). ... >But he still has some amount of > sa~n~naa vipallaasa, perversion of perception, and > citta vipallaasa, perversion of thought. That's why he > is still married and weeps when his wife or son dies. > But these two remaining perversions are not as strong > as in a puthujjana, and they arise only when a > sotaapanna is heedless. When he is aware of things > with yonisomanasikaara or when he is practicing > vipassanaa bhaavanaa such perversions cannot arise. .... S: In other words, the vipallaasa arise anytime in the javana process except when the cittas are kusala (or kiriya in the case of arahants), i.e. whilst concerned with dana, sila or bhavana. There is sati and yonisomanasikaara whenever any kusala cittas arise. ..... > Han: I became interested in the three vipallaasas. So > I looked at Visuddhimagga and I found: > Vism. XXII, 53: The perversions are the three, namely, > perversion of perception, of consciousness, and of > view, which occur apprehending objects that are > impermanent, painful, not-self, and foul (ugly), as > permanent, pleasure, self, and beautiful. .... S: Thanks again Han for raising this important topic. I think we can say that whenever there is heedlessness, there are vipallaasas and whenever there are vipallaasas arising, there is heedlessness. I look forward to any more comments either of you may add. Metta, Sarah p.s Mike, pls remind me off-list if you'd still like the c.d. sent. ======================== #65850 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 10:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 591- The Stages of Insight(m) sarahprocter... Hi Azita, --- gazita2002 wrote: > thank you Han, I am not familiar with this sutta, and in fact > confess to being one who reads sutta infrequently. This has been a > subject that has come up in discussion in Bkk; I have formerly had > difficulty with Suttas in that they seem to make the development of > wisdom and understanding appear easier than it really is - but feel > now that suttas can be interpreted according to one's own > understanding. .... S: Yes, I remember your comments in this regard and I agree that we read suttas (or anything else, for that matter) according to our present understanding. As has been stressed, when satipatthana develops, all becomes clear!! I remember the example of 'visible object' being given. For those who listened to the Buddha, when they heard about visible object, there was no doubt about what it was or what awareness of visible object was. For us, we have to hear, read and consider a lot before the truths sink in. .... > I understand the Buddha had different methods for talking to > various 'beings' but his basic message was always the same. That the > all is impermanent, non-self and dukkha [unsatisfactory]. ... S: Yes, this is how I see it -- always the basic message about the characteristics of paramattha dhammas. There was no need for him to teach about the nature of concepts. Everyone was and is familiar with the conceptual world. Hope you're struggling through the supply assignment. Not long to go:-). Metta, Sarah ======= #65851 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 10:15 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- ken_aitch wrote: >I was thinking; "way" > (of understanding) can mean both "path" and "manner" can't it? Even > though there is no traveller on it, the Middle Way is a path in that > there are progressive stages of insight. More importantly, it is the > manner in which we understand the present moment. Whatever happens, we > understand there are really only namas and rupas. And it doesn't > matter which nama or rupa becomes the object of understanding; the > path is "lovely at the beginning, lovely at the middle and lovely at > the end." ... S: Nicely said:-). ... S: Thanks for reminding me of the 'spurting blood':-) Do hope you and your surfer friend have recovered from your incidents with your boards. The one real relief for my condition is getting into the cold sea water. I'm doing fine, thanks. Right now, propped up in a freezing bedroom with computer on my lap and a kitchen collander/strainer pressed into my back:-/. ... > It's a good thing there are only namas and rupas - otherwise, we'd > have to feel sorry for you. :-) .... S: Ha, ha:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #65852 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 10:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... sarahprocter... Dear Scott, I think others have replied to parts of your post #65753, but I'd also like to respond a little more. Btw, I liked your 'balanced' or 'balancing' comments in another post (to Nina, I think). When sati arises, no question about 'how to balance' or 'what is balance' and perhaps that's why sati is said to have the characteristic of not wobbling too:-). --- Scott Duncan wrote: <...> > Actually I was just thinking in pictures and feeling in my sleep. > Actually this was all about 'me'. .... Sarah: Yes, isn't it always - my feeling, my thinking, my experiences... .... > > The thoughts and the story were just like life and the point about it > all being a dream is never clearer. .... Sarah: Yes, this is our world most the time... .... <...> > Since dreaming is thinking and since mundane life with its apparent > coherence is all thinking, awake or asleep, it is clear that these > 'deeper' thoughts are only thoughts. And these are thoughts about > 'self'. I create very intricate fictions about people. Awake and > asleep, no difference. Alive or dead, no difference. This is why I > feel things like 'bereft' and 'betrayed' - because I seek to claim and > lay hold of. .... Sarah: You got it! .... <...> > A person's 'need to help' is clearly and essentially a selfish one. > While 'helping' someone is a fiction, given the strictures imposed by > the reality of no control, the paradox remains that one can 'help' > only when one no longer needs to 'help'. ..... S: The 'need', I agree is a selfish one. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say all 'helping' is a fiction. Kusala, akusala for only panna to know. Essentially we cannot help another in an ultimate sense, but our words and deeds can be an important condition for others' assistance. I agree that the less needy or self-serving, the more help. Isn't it like the learning to live alone with sounds and visible objects, no matter the circumstances? .... > > Conventional interpersonal psychodynamics are rife with intricacies of > their own. The stories are massively complex. Self-view is rampant, > obviously. One cannot be too careful about the illusion of altruism. > What I want for someone is only what I want. What I think should > happen is only what I think. My goal for someone else is arrogance. .... S: It depends, I'd say. Better not make sweeping generalisations about the 'situation' as such, but I agree with the essence of your message. ... > My pleasure at having apparently 'helped' someone is only my pleasure. > We try to show the residents that their own needs only serve to block > the work of a patient. And all this due to a belief in persons and a > self. .... S: I can appreciate the residents might come out of the sessions somewhat shell-shocked:-) ... > I don't mean to be controversial here, Sarah. ... S: Oh we thrive on controversy here - hadn't you noticed:-) ... >I'm only offering > opinions about what I think are misconceptions about 'helping'. To be > clear, the beautiful dhammas - loving kindness and the like - are > real. Of this there is no doubt. What is false is the notion that > these automatically arise when one decides to enact wholesomeness. > This decision to act is not, in and of itself, an on-off switch. .... S: Well said. In fact, if 'one decides to enact wholesomeness', any kusala would be very questionable. .... > In our residents I see a lot of illusion about selves that are good, > helpful, wise, know better, and the like. We are thought of as jaded > and callous when we point this out to the residents. The residents > fear that to be otherwise is to be mean and inhuman. They are wrong. .... S: :-) Again, only panna can tell. Never mind what others think. .... > Ahh, well. Enough musing. We'll see about the Chinese wife, eh? I > actually have to host two Chinese residents next week and show them > around the Clinic. Perhaps one of them will be a woman. Wouldn't it > be grand to have a Chinese wife who is also a physician?! .... S: There you go in fantasy land by accumulations in spite of all those resolutions:-)lol. As you've got the 'Chinese bug', how about saving up to bring your kids to Hong Kong for a holiday......It's lovely spring-like weather now here and lots to offer. We can even offer Hong Kong Disney fantasy these days for those that get home-sick:-). Metta, Sarah ======= #65853 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 11:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions sarahprocter... Hi JC, --- JC Mendoza wrote: > Hi Sarah, > The article is Theravada/Mahayana since the cosmology of the two are > more or less the same according to the source and not Tibetan and its in > wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Buddhist_ cosmology. Sorry > for the late reply, I've been quite busy these past days. I just want to > know about the cosmology of the religion. .... S: I just had a quick look and indeed it contains a lot of information. If you have time, please also look at posts saved under 'Rebirth & Planes of Existence' in 'useful posts' in the files section of DSG and add your comments. I responded to your first question about the lifespan of devas and the AN quote. I couldn't easily find the other reference you referred to about 'manusyaloka'. If you give me any Pali textual source reference, I'll be happy to discuss it further according to my limited understanding. I mention this, because I don't know where the details you gave come from. Metta, Sarah > --- jcmendoza1000 wrote: > > > To everyone: > > Concerning lifespan of devas in the heavens and the realm of humans > > (Manuṣyaloka). In Buddhist Cosmology in Wikipedia > > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_cosmology) it says the > > Vibhajyav¨¡da tradition which it says is the Theravada tradition > > believes > > that the devas of the Four Great Kings live for 90,000 human years > > while the Mahayana believes they live for 9,000,000 human years. But > > in the Theravadin Access to Insight website > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an3-70.html) it holds > > that they live for 9,000,000 human years. The same goes for the > > lifespan of the other devas in higher heavens, Access to Insight > seems > > to hold the belief of the Sarvastivadin tradition mentioned in the > > Wiki article. So which is which? > .... > S: What it says in AN 3s, 70 (PTS tranls) is: > > "...fifty years of human life are a single night and day to the Devas > of > the Four Great Kings. Thirty such days and nights make a month. Twelve > of > such months make a year. Five hundred of such years make up the life > period of the Devas of the Four Great Kings." > > I'll leave you to do the caluculation. > .... > > And also, concerning Manusyaloka, the article says: > > * Manuṣyaloka (Tib: mi) ¨C This is the world of humans and > > human-like > > beings who live on the surface of the earth. > <...> > > Now, we all know now that the earth is round unlike what is mentioned > > in the article of it having horizontal limits and that there are many > > continents in it but all can be reached by boat and that none of the > > people living there are more that 8 feet tall. People who grow 5 to > 6 > > feet not only live in Jambudipa but also in all other continents that > > make up the world as we know today ( and why aren't these other > > continents named in Manusyaloka), are people mentioned in the article > > being 12 -48 feet tall myths or do they really exist and we still > have > > no means to reach them? And why is Manusyaloka represented as > > horizontal instead of it being round? #65854 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Nina, > > Thank you very much. > I have two difficulties with audio. > First, I do not even know what a broadband is. > My computer knowledge is very elementary. .... S: Some people are connected to the internet by telephone dial-up and some are connected by broadband which is usually faster and means one can keep the connection longer. That's all. .... > Second, we (Burmese) pronounce Pali words differently > from people in Thailand and Sri Lanka, for example. > We pronounce ‘tha’ for ‘sa’ in Pali. > We pronounce ‘saitta’ for ‘citta’ and so on. ... S: I remember this from when we were in Yangon and met some friends. It all took us a little time to get used to the 'saitta' and 'citta' etc, but not very long at all. We just spoke our own pronunciations and understood each other fine. Sometime we'll edit and make those discussions available as well. ... > I will be most grateful if you could kindly transcribe > this part for me, please. .... S: I'll look forward to any comments you chip in with as usual. Later, if you can listen to some parts at the same time, I think this would be even better, but I know some people just prefer reading, like Larry:-). Metta, Sarah ========== #65855 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 12:02 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 599- The Stages of Insight(u) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd As we have seen, there are many kinds and degrees of understanding: intellectual understanding of realities, direct understanding of them, developed in different stages of insight, understanding of the plane of rúpåvacara citta (fine-material jhåna) and of the plane of arúpåvacara citta (immaterial jhåna), and understanding which is lokuttara paññå. As regards kåmåvacara cittas, cittas of the sense-sphere, which are accompanied by understanding, there are four of the eight types of mahå-kusala cittas, four of the eight types of mahåvipåkacittas and four of the eight types of mahå-kiriyacittas which are accompanied by understanding(1). If someone is born with mahå-vipåkacitta accompanied by understanding he may, if he intends to develop higher degrees of calm, be able to attain jhåna in that life. If someone develops insight he may attain enlightenment in that life. If someone is not born with mahå-vipåkacitta accompanied by understanding he can still develop calm or insight, but he cannot attain jhåna or enlightenment in that life. As regards the mahå-kiriyacittas of the arahat, four of the eight types are, as we have seen, accompanied by understanding. The arahat can have mahå-kiriyacittas which are not accompanied by understanding, for example at the moments when he does not preach Dhamma. All rúpåvacara cittas and all arúpåvacara cittas have to be accompanied by understanding. Without paññå jhåna cannot be attained. As regards lokuttara citta, the magga-cittas and the phala-cittas of the four stages of enlightenment are accompanied by understanding which is lokuttara paññå. When lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhåna-factors of the different stages of jhåna are not taken into account, there are eight lokuttara cittas accompanied by lokuttara paññå. When lokuttara cittas accompanied by jhåna-factors of the five stages of jhåna are taken into account, there are forty lokuttara cittas (five times eight) instead of eight(2) which are accompanied by lokuttara paññå. The fact that lokuttara cittas can be counted as eight or forty shows us that accumulations of different ariyans are not the same. They all have eradicated the same kinds of defilements at the subsequent stages of enlightenment, but they have accumulated different inclinations and skills. Some had the ability to develop insight as well as calm to the degree of jhåna and could attain different stages of jhåna, others did not have such skill. *** 1) See the summary in Appendix 8. 2) See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 23. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65856 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 11:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Nina), --- han tun wrote: > Dear Nina, > > Yes, that is it! I was looking only from the angle of > “vipaaka citta.” I missed the fact that all the > defilements that have to be eradicated at that stage > had already been eradicated by magga-citta, and there > is no defilement left to be eradicated by phala-citta > at that stage of insight. So phala samaadhi must be > very peaceful indeed! .... S: Perhaps it's also helpful to remember that this is the one occasion when vipaka immediately succeeds its 'cause' in the same process. Vipaka is just result, but cannot 'cause' anything. It's the 'fruit'. Metta, Sarah ======== #65857 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions again sarahprocter... Hi JC (TG, Swee Boon & all), We were discussing the Lohicca Sutta, DN12 Before you wrote: > --- jcmendoza1000 wrote: > > > To all: > > Does any one know why the Awakened One taught us that even if a monk > > has achieveed the goal of the contemplative life, he is still worthy > > of criticism (Digha Nikaya 12 Lohicca Sutta ) and he implies there > > that only a Tathagatha is worthy and completely beyond criticism that > > is factual. Does this mean that even arhats can be criticized? > Won't > > we beget much demerit for that even if it is factual? > > - JC > .... ... S: I replied: .... > S: I think if you read the sutta clearly, it is bhikkhus who teach > wrong > views that are to be criticised and not only the Tathagatha, but any of > his disciples who 'practise the moralities', 'guard the sense-doors', > 'attain jhanas', 'various insights', 'realise the Four Noble Truths', > follow 'the path' etc are not to be blamed. > > At the end of the sutta, Brahmin Lohicca realises his own wrong views > and > takes refuge in the Triple Gem. ... S: Now you quote: --- JC Mendoza wrote: > "..."Then there is the case where a certain teacher has attained the > goal of the contemplative life for which one goes forth from the home > life into homelessness. He, having attained that goal of the > contemplative life, teaches his disciples, 'This is for your welfare. > This is for your happiness.' His disciples don't listen, don't lend ear, > don't put forth an intent for gnosis. They practice in a way deviating > from the teacher's instructions. He should be criticized, saying, 'You, > venerable sir, have attained the goal of the contemplative life for > which one goes forth from the home life into homelessness. Having > attained that goal of the contemplative life, you teach your disciples, > "This is for your welfare. This is for your happiness." Your disciples > don't listen, don't lend ear, don't put forth an intent for gnosis, and > practice in a way deviating from the teacher's instructions. It's just > as if, having cut through an old bond, one were to make another new > bond. I say > that such a thing is an evil, greedy deed, for what can one person do > for another?' This is the third teacher who is worthy of criticism in > the world, and when anyone criticizes this sort of teacher, the > criticism is true, factual, righteous, & unblameworthy." .... S: I'd be glad to have the input of keen Sutta friends like TG and Swee Boon. I believe the point is here the same as in the example of the first teacher. The disciples don't wish to listen, the instructions are flouted and the teacher should be blamed because "it is just as if a man were to persist in making advances to a woman who rejected him, and to embrace her though she turned away." Attachment is at the source of one's teaching in such a case. .... > When this was said, the brahmin Lohicca said to the Blessed One, "But > is there, Master Gotama, any teacher who is not worthy of criticism in > the world?" > "There is, Lohicca, a teacher who is not worthy of criticism in the > world." > "But which teacher, Master Gotama, is not worthy of criticism in the > world?" > "There is the case, Lohicca, where a Tathagata appears in the world, > worthy & rightly self-awakened. He teaches the Dhamma admirable in its > beginning, admirable in its middle, admirable in its end. He proclaims > the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely > perfect, surpassingly pure. > "A householder or householder's son, hearing the Dhamma, gains > conviction in the Tathagata..." .... S: So here, anyone who follows the Buddha's teaching and teaches what is 'admirable in the beginning' etc follows the Buddha's instructions. .... > That's what the sutta says that even if a "certain teacher has attained > the goal of the contemplative life" and teaches others "he should be > criticized..." and "this criticism is true, factual, righteous, and > unblameworthy." And arahats aren't perfect right? .... S: I'd like to hear others' input. I think you make a very good point. Obviously if such a teacher was an arahant, his actions could not be criticised. As you say, arahants are perfect. I don't have access to any commentary and I can only think that 'gained the goal of asceticism' (Walshe transl) doesn't hear refer to arahantship. The Pali would be useful if someone would care to check it. ... >What if there is one > who teaches wrong things apart from the Dhamma (since his knowledge > about the Dhamma is complete) and it is dangerously sucking one into > the evanescence of its ignorance? One can't help but safeguard > oursleves from such a person even if he is an arahat. But the problem > and question here is won't you accrue much bad kamma for shunning and > looking down on the arahat? .... S: No, I don't think so. If he's an arahant, he cannot be rightly criticised. I think only the last set of teachers, those who follow the Tathagata are on the right course. I think in the earlier example, 'gained the goal of asceticism' does not refer to those following the Buddha's path, but to attainers of jhana or other ascetic practices perhaps. At the end we read that those who attain to the realization of the 4 NT cannot be blamed. Very good points, JC. Look forward to more and also your introduction sometime:-) Metta, Sarah p.s Pls make it clear whom you are addressing in your posts:-) ================= #65858 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio hantun1 Dear Sarah (and Nina), Thank you very much for your explanation about broadband. I think my computer is connected to the internet by telephone dial-up. It doesn’t stay connected for long. Yes, I also prefer reading. I make notes on the margin, and highlight the sentences that I like with red, green, and yellow highlighter. In that way I understand better. Respectfully, Han #65859 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 100,000 Aeons sarahprocter... Hi JC, --- jcmendoza1000 wrote: > To Everybody: > The Awakened One said that the next Awakened One after Metteya will > come only after 100,000 aeons. Is he speaking for all world systems > here or only in this world system? Wouldn't we be dispersed from this > world system after the end of the aeon? And with countless world > systems in the whole universe, wouldn't there be Awakened Ones in > other world systems that arise even now and after Metteya even if > 100,000 aeons haven't elapsed yet? > -JC .... S: I think he would have been referring to 100,000 aeons in this world system. Even at the end of this lifetime, let alone at the end of an aeon, the flux of cittas we refer to now as 'JC' or 'Sarah' may continue in any world system. Universal Buddhas only arise in the human realm and only one in each Buddha era. Therefore, there will be no Metteya Buddha until the teachings of Gotama have become completely extinct. I think you may be interested to read the following and also ch 69 on 'World Cycles' from the same text (too much to quote in one post): http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits002.htm "§ 2. A LIST OF FORMER BUDDHAS. Translated from the Introduction to the Jâtaka (i.4328). Now in the same world-cycle that saw Dîpamkara, The One Possessing the Ten Forces, there were also three other Buddhas; but as none of them prophesied concerning the Future Buddha, I have not mentioned them. In the Commentary, however, all the Buddhas are mentioned from the beginning of that world-cycle on, as follows:-- 247. "Tanhamkara, Medhamkara, And also Saranamkara, Dîpamkara, the Buddha great, Kondañña, of all men the chief, 248. "Mañgala, and Sumana too, Revata, Sobhita, the sage, Anomadassi, Paduma, Nârada, Padumuttara, 249. "Sumedha, and Sujâta too, Piyadassi, the glorious one, Atthadassi, Dhammadassi, Siddhattha, guide of every man, 250. "Tissa, Phussa, the Buddha great, Vipassi, Sikkhi, Vessabhû, Kakusandha, Konâgamana, Kassapa also, guide for men,-- 251. "All these aforetime Buddhas were, Tranquil, from every passion free. And like the sun, the many-rayed, They chased away the darkness dense, And having flamed like tongues of fire, Became extinct with all their train." Our Future Buddha, in his passage through four immensities and a hundred thousand world-cycles to the present time, p. 33 [J.i.4415 has made his wish under twenty-four of these Buddhas beginning with Dîpamkara. But since Kassapa, The Blessed One, there has been no Supreme Buddha excepting our present one. Accordingly, our Future Buddha has received recognition at the hands of twenty-four Buddhas beginning with Dîpamkara." ***** "§ 3. THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A FUTURE BUDDHA. Translated from the Introduction to the Jâtaka (i.4420). "A human being, male of sex, Who saintship gains, a Teacher meets, As hermit lives, and virtue loves, Nor lacks resolve, nor fiery zeal, Can by these eight conditions joined, Make his most earnest wish succeed," These eight conditions were all united in him when he made his earnest wish at the feet of Dîpamkara, saying,-- "Come now! I'll search that I may find Conditions which a Buddha make." Thereupon, putting forth a strenuous effort,--as it is said,-- "And then I searched, and found the First Perfection, which consists in alms,"-- he discovered, not only the perfection which is called alms, but also all the others that go to make a Buddha. And in fulfilling them he reached his Vessantara existence.1 In so doing, all the blessings celebrated in the following stanzas as belonging to Future Buddhas who make the earnest wish were attained by him:-- p. 34 [J.i.4429 252. "Such men in every virtue trained, And destined for the Buddhaship, In all their weary rounds of birth, Though cycle-millions come and go, 253. "Are never born inside of hell, Nor in the intermundane voids. They never share the Manes' thirst,1 Their hunger or ferocity,1 And though sometimes of low estate, Are never of the insect class. 254. "When they appear among mankind, [S: note 'appear among mankind'] 'T is not as blind from birth they come, Deafness they never have to bear, Nor dumbness have they to endure. 255. "They're never of the female sex, Nor as hermaphrodites appear, As eunuchs are they never classed, Those destined for the Buddhaship. 256. "From all the five great crimes exempt, And pure in all their walks in life, They follow not vain heresy, For well they know how karma works. 257. "Though in the heavens they may be born, Yet ne'er 'mongst those perception-reft; Nor are they destined to rebirth 'Mongst dwellers in the Pure Abodes.2 258. "These pleasure-abnegating men Live unattached in every birth, And ever toil to help the world; While all perfections they fulfil." ***** S: Let me know if this helps and anymore about your particular interest. How does it help you on the path? Metta, Sarah ======== #65860 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 2:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Getting Lost in Thought? (was:ADL 119, nimitta) sarahprocter... Hi Nina & Azita, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > This is very true. No one can make sati arise, but, so long as we are > not sotaapanna, we can at times do some surreptitious measuring of > sati: how much sati is there? It helps to know when we are doing so. .... S: And to see the clinging to self at such times .... > Lost in thoughts, Kh Sujin would say: most important to realize that > all such moments are dhammas, that is: conditioned dhammas. If we > say: O, no, not this dhamma, it is wrong. But at times we are likely > to do so, and there is some selecting that may hardly by noticeable. > Everyone should find this out for himself. Pa~n~naa should realize > all such moments, all moments of wrong practice. .... S: The last point should be stressed. If there were no momenets of wrong view or wrong practice arising and appearing as object to sati and panna, they could never be eradicated. Of course, it depends on different accumulations what arises, what appears at any time. I thought to add to Azita's comment about the difficulty in reading suttas and the difficulty of the path in general and K.Sujin's response that pointing out such difficulties is to praise the wisdom of the Buddha. Metta, Sarah ======== #65861 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 599- The Stages of Insight (u) hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, Nina: (from the text of Cetasikas’ study corner 599) All rúpåvacara cittas and all arúpåvacara cittas have to be accompanied by understanding. Without paññå jhåna cannot be attained. Sarah: (as per message # 65780) Those who have developed samatha (even up to jhana) without insight, know kusala and akusala, but not as paramattha dhammas because they are still clung to as belonging to a self and so on. Han: Now, my question is: without paññå, can any jhåna be attained? Those who attained jhåna before Buddha’s time, did they all have paññå? Respectfully, Han #65862 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas as part of a namarupic stream (was, Books on Dhamma) sarahprocter... Dear Han, JC & Howard JC's discussion of world systems reminds me of this sutta we were discussing with Howard and how you kindly added the Pali: JC, let me know what you think of this: --- han tun wrote: > I was also looking for the same sutta (AN 4.45) where > the Buddha talked about the fathom-long body. > I inserted Pali words taken from the Pali text of the > sutta for those who are interested in Pali. > > Yet it is just within this fathom-long body (imasamim > byaama-matte kalebara), with its perception & > intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos > (loka), the origination of the cosmos (loka-samudaya), > the cessation of the cosmos (loka-nirodha), and the > path of practice leading to the cessation of the > cosmos (loka-nirodha-gaamini-patipadaa)." > > The significance of this paragraph is that the Nibbana > is not far away from the body; if one contemplates on > the fathom-long body (i.e. naam and ruupa as Nina used > to say) one can realize the liberation from loka. .... S: And the significance is that we really don't need to be overly concerned with other world systems or planes of existence. The 'world' can be known right here and now! Thanks again for your help, Han and also to Howard for raising the sutta again. Metta, Sarah ====== #65863 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 599- The Stages of Insight (u) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Nina and Sarah, > > Nina: (from the text of Cetasikas’ study corner 599) > All rúpåvacara cittas and all arúpåvacara cittas have > to be accompanied by understanding. Without paññå > jhåna cannot be attained. > > Sarah: (as per message # 65780) > Those who have developed samatha (even up to jhana) > without insight, know kusala and akusala, but not as > paramattha dhammas because they are still clung to as > belonging to a self and so on. > > Han: Now, my question is: without paññå, can any jhåna > be attained? Those who attained jhåna before Buddha’s > time, did they all have paññå? .... S: No, all samatha development (esp. and incl. jhana) needs panna. Even before the Buddha's time this was so. BUT, there are different kinds of panna. The panna accompanying the development of samatha bhavana up to jhana is not the panna of satipatthana and insight development. Concepts rather than paramattha dhammas are the object in the former case. Do the comments make sense now or have I misunderstood you? I'm sure Nina will add more as well. Metta, Sarah ======= #65864 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 599- The Stages of Insight (u) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your explanation. Yes, your comments make sense. No, you did not misunderstand me. I was only seeking for some clarification for something which I did not understand clearly. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Do the comments make sense now or have I > misunderstood you? I'm sure Nina > will add more as well. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > #65865 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 578- Understanding/pa~n~naa (q) sarahprocter... Dear Han (Scott & all), --- han tun wrote: > Question (iv): We may find a particular situation too > difficult, not favourable for the development of > understanding. What > should we do when we are in such a situation? > > Answer: We should not worry about the situation we are > in but we should be mindful of whatever reality > appears. When we learn about the different > classifications of understanding we can be reminded > that understanding has to be developed in order to > reach higher stages. It should be developed in > whatever situation in our daily life we may be. We are > inclined to think that awareness of the present moment > is too difficult, but that one day in the future we > may reach the goal. If we think that the present > situation is not favourable for the development of > right understanding, it will not develop. We should > remember that each moment is in fact a new situation > which is conditioned and which is beyond control, and > that it is therefore useless to prefer another > situation to the present one. Therefore, we should not > worry about the too difficult or unfavourable > situation we are in, but we just have to be diligently > mindful of whatever reality appears here and now. > ------------------------------ .... S: This was such a good answer. As you say, 'each moment is in fact a new situation'. And each of those momentary 'situations' is conditioned and beyond control as you said. What's the point in preferring another 'situation' or another reality to arise now? Whichever way life goes, whichever way we step is conditioned too, but sati can be aware of what is appearing. I know Scott agrees, but was thinking about our discussions on resolves and Chinese wives when I pulled your post out of my large pile of letters I'd 'resolved' to reply to weeks ago:-). Metta, Sarah ========== #65866 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 3, 2006 10:14 pm Subject: Today is Unduwap Poya Day! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to be Real Buddhist through Observance? Unduwap Poya is this Fullmoon of December celebrating 2 events: 1: The arrival of Nun Theri Sanghamitta , sister of Arahat Mahinda , from India in the 3rd century B.C. establishing the Order of Nuns. 2: The arrival at Anuradhapura of a sapling of the sacred Bodhi-tree at Buddhagaya, brought to Sri Lanka by Arahat Theri Sanghamitta . This day is designated Sanghamitta Day. Nowadays Dasasil Matas; ten-precept nuns, take an active part in making these celebrations. Details on the Arahat Nun Theri Sanghamitta and the MahaBodhi : See: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/sa/sanghamitta_theri.htm and the Tree http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/b/bodhirukka.htm On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges & undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I hereby accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in/to this world! So is the start towards NibbÄ?na: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha / observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish a recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The Modern Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #65867 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 5:12 am Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your kind reply. I agree with you, especially in regard to the need to soften statements - I seem to tend towards rather histrionic generalisations when carried away by some sort of mental factor or other. S: "There you go in fantasy land by accumulations in spite of all those resolutions:-)lol." Yeah. About those resolutions: it was cool to watch the way in which I took Jon's reply yesterday. Proof that 'resolutions' are often only words (or words accompanied perhaps by true intention). As I considered my reaction I could see that there must be a deeper opposite 'resolution' in play - one which has me resolving to seek another wife despite my so-called resolve. In other words, a 'resolve' can be simply delusion at times because it is founded on the premise that there is one in existence to make such a thing and control its result. S: "As you've got the 'Chinese bug', how about saving up to bring your kids to Hong Kong for a holiday......It's lovely spring-like weather now here and lots to offer. We can even offer Hong Kong Disney fantasy these days for those that get home-sick:-)." That would be cool! A little tough to swing at the moment but what a good idea... With loving kindness, Scott. #65868 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 5:02 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) chandrafabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Nina, Sarah and all, > > The text: > The magga-citta eradicates defilements and experiences > nibbåna. The phala-citta which is the result of the > magga-citta also experiences nibbåna; it does not > eradicate defilements. > > --------------- > > Han: > It is interesting to note that the phala-citta which > is the result of the magga-citta also experiences > nibbåna; but it does not eradicate defilements. > Previously, I thought magga-citta and phala-citta > eradicate defilements, as the two are usually > mentioned together in combination as a pair. Only > later, did I know that phala-citta itself is a > resultant or vipaaka citta, and as such it cannot > eradicate defilements. > > I thank Nina for bringing out this fact. > > Respectfully, > Han > > Dear Nina, I am a new comer, but I met you long time ago in Vihara Buddha metta in Jakarta, Mr Gorkom was still ambassador at that time, and I am glad to meet you again in this forum. I also have some question regarding Magga, if understanding, vision,insight, knowlwdge, wisdom and light arises at the moment of magga, what we experience when Phala arises according to scriptures? All I know all this time is we experience cessation of mental factors temporarily, is that true? And I have an embarassing fundamental question, even though I read many books and practicing maditation a lot, but I cannot describe the exact difference of sati and samadhi, even though I apply both when practicing Vipassana. could you describe exactly? Thank you. Respectfully, Fabian. #65869 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 11:07 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 141. nilovg Dear friends, We all have in our daily life opportunities for dåna and síla. As regards bhåvanå, this comprises samatha and vipassanå, and the studying of Dhamma or explaining it to others. Not only the monks but also laypeople can study and teach Dhamma. We read in the Mahå- Parinibbåna-sutta (chapter III, 112, 113) that the Buddha told Ånanda that Måra, the Evil One, had said to the Buddha after his enlightenment that it was now the time for him to pass away. The Buddha said: And when he had thus spoken, Ånanda, I addressed Måra, the Evil One, and said:--``I shall not pass away, O Evil One! until not only the monks and nuns of the Order, but also the laydisciples of either sex shall have become true hearers, wise and well trained, ready and learned, carrying the teachings in their memory, masters of the lesser corollaries that follow from the larger doctrine, correct in life, walking according to the precepts--until they, having thus themselves learned the doctrine, shall be able to tell others of it, preach it, make it known, establish it, open it, minutely explain it and make it clear--until they, when others start vain doctrine easy to be refuted by the truth, shall be able in refuting it to spread the wonder-working truth abroad! I shall not die until this pure religion of mine shall have become successful, prosperous, widespread, and popular in all its full extent--until, in a word, it shall have been well proclaimed among men!'' The fact that we are able to perform wholesome deeds in our lives is due to conditions, it is not due to a self. We read in the Dialogues of the Buddha (III, no. 34, Tenfold Series, chapter IV, 276) about factors which are helpful conditions for kusala: Four... that help much:--four ``wheels'', to wit, the orbit of a favourable place of residence, the orbit of association with the good, perfect adjustment of oneself, the cycle of merit wrought in the past. As regards a favourable place of residence, living in a Buddhist country can be a helpful condition for kusala cittas. Then one has the opportunity to visit temples and listen to the preaching of Dhamma. The Dhamma can change our life, it is the condition for the performing of wholesome deeds, for dåna, síla and bhåvanå. As regards association with the good, this means association with the right friend in Dhamma. If one, even though living in a Buddhist country, does not meet the right friend in Dhamma who can help in the search for the truth, one lacks the condition which is most helpful for the development of wisdom and the eradication of defilements. ******* Nina. #65870 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 10:59 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana II, 4. nilovg Dear friends, We think that we should develop understanding, but actually it is understanding, paññå, which develops. There is nobody who develops understanding. Khun Sujin remarked: “In the beginning it seems that ‘I’ am developing, but later on one realizes that it is right understanding, paññå, which grows. One comes to the conclusion that nobody can do anything.” Alan said: “Because each moment is conditioned, one can't do anything or control anything, not even the development of right understanding. It is conditioned by what one has learnt or considered.“ Khun Sujin remarked: “Even if one considers oneself a Buddhist, it depends on conditions whether one can read wisely or consider wisely. Or does one just want to be ‘somebody’ instead of developing right understanding? It is quite difficult to develop understanding of visible object at this moment, to realize that there is not anybody in the visible object which is seen. It takes time to listen again and again, to be aware again and again. Without awareness and understanding of this moment there is no way to eliminate desire. There is desire if one wants to have a special experience instead of developing understanding. I do not tell anybody to do this or that first in order to be aware, there is no technique which should be applied. One thinks too much and tries too much. When can there be satipaììhåna? When there is enough understanding to condition it.” One may be very keen to reach the different stages of insight, but if there is such a wish, is there not an idea of self? We should not force ourselves to reach something for which we are not ready yet. Khun Sujin said: “This moment of gaining understanding is enough for this moment, and thus the development can continue naturally. There should be contentedness with one's own ability. We should be grateful to the Buddha for the understanding we have gained already, even if it is not a great deal yet. If there is not much understanding now, it is because it was not developed much in the past. It takes aeons to develop it. We should remember that right understanding is a conditioned reality, we cannot hasten its development. If we try to do so, we are clinging to the idea of self. However, understanding is developed in order to get rid of the idea of self.” ****** Nina. #65871 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) nilovg Dear Fabian, I am so happy to welcome you here. That session in the vihara in Jakarta was a very good one, I remember it. I shall answer later on, I had some computer trouble, lost some data and I have to do revisions. Nina. Op 4-dec-2006, om 14:02 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > I am a new comer, > but I met you long time ago in Vihara Buddha metta in Jakarta, #65872 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking nilovg Dear Sarah, Thank you for all the notes on nimitta, I keep them. Scott will also be glad. Nina Op 4-dec-2006, om 6:46 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > As 'nimitta' has come up, I'd like to refer to some notes I made > before > and also add to an earlier discussion you and Howard were having as > well. #65873 From: "m_nease" Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 1:09 pm Subject: Re: vipallaasas and sotaapanna m_nease Hi Sarah (and Han), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Mike, could you elaborate a little more on the importance of the > material as you see it. I think it may be helpful for us all to hear a > little more of your refelections. Actually I'm afraid very little reflection went into my post-- > S: Of course, all other kinds of wrong view depend on sakkaaya-ditthi). This sounds familiar Sarah but could you please remind me of the source text? > > But he still has some amount of > > sa~n~naa vipallaasa, perversion of perception, and > > citta vipallaasa, perversion of thought. That's why he > > is still married and weeps when his wife or son dies. > > But these two remaining perversions are not as strong > > as in a puthujjana, and they arise only when a > > sotaapanna is heedless. When he is aware of things > > with yonisomanasikaara or when he is practicing > > vipassanaa bhaavanaa such perversions cannot arise. Of course this material isn't new to the list (though I think the Sayadaw's quotation is). Nina posted the Vism. passage recently I think and others (including you?) have also written about the different usages of 'vipallaasa'. I'd fallen into the habit of thinking of it only in the context of di.t.thivipallaasa which of course is far more limited than the real scope of the term. It is significant to me because perversion of consciousness or of perception can occur even when wrong view is not present. Different factors though no doubt compatible. I also tend to fall into the habitual error of thinking of wrong view as conceptual when of course it is actually akusala kamma (cetanaa). Big mistake. Han's quote from the Sayadaw just struck me in a way that other writing on the subject hasn't done, at least recently. As we've often observed it's good to see these points again and again, sometimes they 'work' better than others. mike > Sarah > p.s Mike, pls remind me off-list if you'd still like the c.d. sent. > ======================== > #65874 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 6:03 am Subject: Re: vipallaasa chandrafabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Han, > I quoted some material in my Vis. studies, Vis. CH XVII, 116: > As we read in the text of the Visuddhimagga: < he figures that > formations are self, belong to a self, are lasting, pleasant, > beautiful.> > Here the text refers to the perversions, vipallaasa, of perception > (saññaa), > of citta, of wrong view. Through these perversities one regards: what > is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; what is painful (dukkha) as > pleasant (or happiness); what is non-self (anattaa) as self; what is > impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful. Thus, there are four > perversions. > The sotaapanna has eliminated the perversions of perception, citta > and wrong view, that the impermanent is permanent and what is non- > self as self; further, the perversion of wrong view that the painful > is pleasant, and the impure is pure. <...> > Han, another subject. You wrote: he is > discussing are dhamma literary giants, and I feel that > they are a class of their own, a class which is far up > for me to join. > > Han, you should not think in this way. I know with the words above > you wanted to express appreciation. You are always kind, humble and > without any pretenses, and I appreciate this so much. But I learnt > that thinking oneself less than others is also a form of mana, > conceit. I learnt this, but of course it is hard to apply and to > realize when it arises. > I hope you will just write from your heart, not minding about this or > that person who is better, equal or less. There are no dhamma giants, > there is just Dhamma. Whatever you write has substance, it is worth > while. > Nina. <...> dear Nina, I think you are really fair Nina, and I agree we just say what we think is good, but may we express our own comment based on our experience even though it seems not in line with the scriptures? Especially the purpose is to explain a twisted question? respectfully, Fabian #65875 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 5:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking chandrafabian --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Nina, Howard, Scott & all, > > As 'nimitta' has come up, I'd like to refer to some notes I made before > and also add to an earlier discussion you and Howard were having as well. > > Firstly, to repeat some notes I just came across of comments of A.Sujin's > which come up later in the Feb, 2006 audio discussions (8th Feb P (1) > session, I think - the topic comes up several times in the series). > > -What is left all the time after the dhamma has fallen away is the sign, > like the sign of visible object, but each reality has fallen away already. <....> Hi, everyone.. may I join the discussion? I am interested in the meaning of nimitta, All this time I simply thinking nimitta is the image appear when we are practicing Samatha, I was wrong. I practice vipassana (directly) before, I think nimitta (like patibhaga nimitta) only arises at the third stage of nana, and it is still considered as vipassana kilesa, and the rest of nana (udayabaya nana and forward) nimitta does not arises, what appears are only objects of attention (nama-rupa) arises together with, or without concept, only after meditator achieved sankharupekkha nana the conceptual thought not arises when we are in deep concentration. The conceptual thought maybe differentiated with unconceptual thought or unconceptual mind, more familiar known as knowing mind, an unconceptual mind which discern nama-rupa without reacting, is only arises at later stage when the insight is near ripe (around sankharupekkha nana), maybe what you say about nimitta is nama-rupa objects? I asked Vipassana yanika meditator, they don't experience nimitta, maybe only samatha yanika meditator experience nimitta? With metta, Fabian. #65876 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 3:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas as part of a namarupic stream (was, Books on Dhamma) upasaka_howard HI, Sarah (and Han, and JC) - *Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: a star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream* -----Original Message----- From: sarahprocterabbott@... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 4:48 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas as part of a namarupic stream (was, Books on Dhamma) Dear Han, JC & Howard JC's discussion of world systems reminds me of this sutta we were discussing with Howard and how you kindly added the Pali: JC, let me know what you think of this: --- han tun wrote: > I was also looking for the same sutta (AN 4.45) where > the Buddha talked about the fathom-long body. > I inserted Pali words taken from the Pali text of the > sutta for those who are interested in Pali. > > Yet it is just within this fathom-long body (imasamim > byaama-matte kalebara), with its perception & > intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos > (loka), the origination of the cosmos (loka-samudaya), > the cessation of the cosmos (loka-nirodha), and the > path of practice leading to the cessation of the > cosmos (loka-nirodha-gaamini-patipadaa)." > > The significance of this paragraph is that the Nibbana > is not far away from the body; if one contemplates on > the fathom-long body (i.e. naam and ruupa as Nina used > to say) one can realize the liberation from loka. .... S: And the significance is that we really don't need to be overly concerned with other world systems or planes of existence. The 'world' can be known right here and now! Thanks again for your help, Han and also to Howard for raising the sutta again. Metta, Sarah ====== ============================ I like that "The 'world' can be known right here and now!" very much, Sarah!" :-) With metta, Howard #65877 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 8:28 pm Subject: Dual Faith ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: Faith has 2 main Components: Devotion & Belief! The two components of Faith (saddha): 1: An affective emotional component pouring from the heart as devotion: One Trusts! 2: A cognitive component residing in the intellect as a fixed view or opinion: One Believes! Initiation, Evolution, Maturation and Culmination of Faith: Both are necessary for initiating spiritual praxis and mental training. Both are, by the effects of this praxis and training later replaced, yet also reinforced, by - direct experience - : One Knows! The faith has thus gradually evolved and grown strong into first Confidence and later, when validated and verified into persuaded Conviction. The ability of Faith initiates as seed the ability of Energy; this repeatedly trains the ability of Awareness, which then purifies the ability of Concentration that then enables the ability of Understanding to penetrate into real progress... When unshakable these 5 abilities have become powers! Replacement and reinforcement by Direct Experience: The confident Noble Disciple having repeatedly trained so, having repeatedly been aware so, having repeatedly worked on concentration so, and having repeatedly understood so, by that therefore becomes fully confident in those states, which were previously only heard of or known from reading: Now I dwell having directly experienced them with my own body and having fully penetrated them by understanding: I see them through! Samyutta Nikaya V:226 The Fruit of Faith: Entering the Stream to Awakening! Hereafter is Faith never more needed as Sceptical Doubt have been irreversibly eradicated. One has thus entered the Stream leading to Awakening with Enlightenment as assured destination within max. 7 lives: And yet another Noble has been born by emerging out of the egg of Faith! The shell of Ignorance has been broken... A Learner is going the few final rounds... Smiling as smelling Freed Peace & Bliss... The Battle with Mara has begun. Yeah! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #65878 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 4, 2006 11:43 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 600- The Stages of Insight(v) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd Some types of sobhana cittas are accompanied by understanding, others are not. Understanding is a cetasika, not self, and it arises only when there are the right conditions for its arising. We may find it difficult to grasp how the understanding of the reality appearing at the present moment can develop to the degree that it leads to the eradication of defilements. When someone merely begins to develop understanding he may sometimes have doubts about the benefit of mindfulness of visible object, seeing, sound or hearing which appears now. We should remember that when there is less ignorance of realities there will be less defilements. Ignorance is the root of all that is unwholesome. When there is ignorance we do not know the benefit of kusala and the danger of akusala, we do not know realities as they are. Ignorance conditions wrong view. It is wrong view to take realities for self or to believe that they last. When understanding begins to develop we cannot expect a radical change in our behaviour. We are still selfish, we still cling to the objects we experience, we are still angry, jealous and stingy. We have to be sincere with ourselves when we develop understanding, we should not pretend to be without defilements. Defilements are bound to arise, but we can begin to understand that whatever reality presents itself has arisen because of its appropriate conditions and is not self. We cannot eradicate defilements merely by doing good deeds without developing understanding of realities. Seeing realities as they are is the only way that eventually defilements can be eradicated. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65879 From: JC Mendoza Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 100,000 Aeons jcmendoza1000 To Sarah: Do you have a source for the answer that the next Awakened One after 100,000 aeons is for this world system? There are no sections on "World-Cycles" in the text you gave. Also, I accidentally deleted the message about "manusyaloka" but the source of the source from which I took it must have been Theravada/Mahayana as it sadi they have more or less the same cosmology it doesn't have a Pali text. Why do you need a Pali text? About your questions on why I need to know these things it just helps one be more aware of landscape in Samsara as well as its events that are unfolding or will unfold. -JC sarah abbott wrote: Hi JC, -JC <..> .... S: I think he would have been referring to 100,000 aeons in this world system. Even at the end of this lifetime, let alone at the end of an aeon, the flux of cittas we refer to now as 'JC' or 'Sarah' may continue in any world system. Universal Buddhas only arise in the human realm and only one in each Buddha era. Therefore, there will be no Metteya Buddha until the teachings of Gotama have become completely extinct. I think you may be interested to read the following and also ch 69 on 'World Cycles' from the same text (too much to quote in one post): http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits002.htm #65880 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 593- The Stages of Insight(o) sarahprocter... Dear Han, (Nina & all), You gave an interesting reply to this extract on the Stages of Insight. I'm afraid I had to put some posts aside to consider more carefully now I'm 'picking up': --- han tun wrote: > The Text: > 1) For details see Appendix 9. .... S: Let me add Appendix 9 now for others to see what we're talking about: >Appendix 9 The Stages of Insight Three stages of “tender insight” (taruùa vipassanå): Defining of Nåma and Rúpa (nåma-rúpa-pariccheda ñåùa)[S: this should read ~naa.na throughout] Discerning the Conditions of Nåma and Rúpa (paccayapariggaha ñåùa) Investigation Knowledge or Comprehension by Groups (sammasana ñåùa) ..... Eight Stages of Principal Insight (Mahå-Vipassanå Ñåùa): Knowledge of the Arising and Falling Away of Nåma and Rúpa (udayabbhayå ñåùa) Knowledge of Dissolution (bhanga ñåùa) Knowledge of Terror (bhaya ñåùa) Knowledge of Danger (ådínava ñåùa) Knowledge of Dispassion (nibbida ñåùa) Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muccitukamyatå ñåùa) Knowledge of Reflection (paìisankhå ñåùa) Knowledge of Equanimity about Saòkhåra Dhammas (saòkhårupekkhå ñåùa) Adaptation Knowledge (anuloma ñåùa)< ***** Text contd: >The way of counting of > the stages of insight may vary depending on whether > the counting starts at the first stage of principal > insight or at the third stage of tender insight, and > whether paññå arising in the process during which > enlightenment occurs, paññå accompanying the lokuttara > cittas and paññå which “reviews” after that process is > over, is included or not. > ---------------------------------- > > Han: > If there are two groups of people: the first group of > people who count 10 vipassanaa insights starting from > the third stage of tender insight (sammasana nana); > and the second group of people who count 9 vipassanaa > insights starting from the first stage of principal > insight (udayabbhaya nana); please count me in the > first group. .... S: We can also count the stages of insight from the very first tender insight, nama-rupa pariccheda nana. .... Han: > The reasons are as follows. > > The Investigation Knowledge or Comprehension by Groups > (sammasana nana), which investigates the three > characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) of realities > (naama and ruupa), may still be a tender insight > (taruna vipassanaa). It may still be vulnerable to ten > imperfections (upakkilesas). At this stage, panna may > still be not keen enough yet to see the danger and > disadvantage of the arising and falling away of > realities. Nevertheless, the knowledge of the three > characteristics of realities (naama and ruupa) is the > first most important step towards higher vipassanaa > insights. Subsequent vipassanaa insights cannot do > away with the knowledge of these three characteristics > of realities. ..... S: I follow your reasoning. I've also heard it said that the first stage of nama-rupa pariccheda-nana is the most important stage. Without this stage, there can be no following stages of insight. In 'Survey',Ch 30, 'Stages of Insight', A.Sujin writes: "Some people believe, when they consider nåma and rúpa and know that this nåma is conditioned by that rúpa and this rúpa is conditioned by that nåma, that the second stage of insight has already arisen, namely the direct understanding of conditionality, paccaya-pariggaha-ñåùa. However, when the first stage of insight, nåma-rúpa-pariccheda-ñåùa, has not arisen yet, the following stages of insight cannot arise either. When the first stage of insight has arisen, one will not erroneously believe that there is vipassanå ñåùa when there is no vipassanå ñåùa. When vipassanå ñåùa has arisen one understands its nature of anattå. One realizes that it has arisen because of the right conditions; one knows that the factors of the eightfold Path were developed to such degree that that stage of insight could arise. Vipassanå ñåùa can only arise when the right conditions have been cultivated, that is, satipaììhåna, which studies, investigates and notices the characteristics of nåma and rúpa as they naturally appear in daily life over and over again, so that paññå can become keener. Someone who does not even know the difference between the characteristics of nåma and rúpa may mistakenly believe that he has reached the third stage of insight, the stage of comprehension by groups, sammasana ñåùa. He may think that he can experience the arising and falling away of nåmas, one after the other, and that that is the third stage of insight. However, if someone has not developed satipaììhåna and has not been aware of the characteristics of different kinds of nåma that appear, he does not realize nåma as the element which experiences. He may believe that he experiences the arising and falling away of nåma, but he does not clearly know what nåma is. He confuses nåma and rúpa, he does not know that nåma is entirely different from rúpa. A person who is impatient wishes that vipassanå ñåùa arises soon. He will try to do something other than being aware of the characteristics of nåma and rúpa that naturally appear and have arisen because of the appropriate conditions." ..... S: One thing for sure is that no stage can be skipped and the foundation of satipatthana is essential from the start! Always good to hear your deep and profound reflections as Howard said:-) Metta, Sarah ======== #65881 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] From Udana 2.1 (Two Translations, Each Good) sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all. --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, all - > > Sending this along as an encouragement and to show that > realization of > no self is not to be feared. Bodhi is the supreme happiness. ... S: I liked this message and the two translations you gave from the Udana(2:1): > Translation by John Ireland > > Blissful is detachment for one who is content, > For one who has learned Dhamma and who sees; > Blissful is non-affliction in the world, > Restraint towards living creatures; > > Blissful is passionlessness in the world, > The overcoming of sensual desires; > But the abolition of the conceit "I am" — > That is truly the supreme bliss. > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > > Translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu > > Blissful is solitude for one who's content, > who has heard the Dhamma, > who sees. > Blissful is non-affliction with regard for the world, > restraint for living beings. > Blissful is dispassion with regard for the world, > the overcoming of sensuality. > But the subduing of the conceit "I am" — > That is truly > the ultimate bliss. .... S: I'd like to add Masefield's translation which is not so poetic and doesn't read as easily, but simply because I'm going to add his translation of the interesting commentary notes which naturally follow his use of terms: "Separation is bliss for the one who is satisfied, whose Dhamma has been heard, who beholds. Harmlessness is bliss that, that control with respect to living beings in this world. Freedom from lust where this world is concerned is bliss, that transcendence of sense-desires. The driving out of the 'I am' conceit - this is indeed the highest bliss." **** S: Now the passage from the commentary: ..... "nibbaana, is bliss. for the one who is satisfied by way of the contendness associated with the knowledge associated with the four paths. whose Dhamma has been made manifest, whose Dhamma has been heard far and wide. (alternative grammatical form) all this - that separation, or indeed whatever else there is to be beheld - [102] with the eye of knowledge attained through his own power in the form of energy. " angerlessness; in this way it is the stage previous to loving kindness that is indicated. and that control with respect to beings <(sattesu)>, meaning non-injury is bliss; in this way it is the stage previous to compassion that is indicated. being without lust where this world is concerned is also bliss. Of what sort? means that that being without lust, that is spoken of as "That transcendence of sense-desires", is also bliss; in this way it is the path of the non-return that is talked about. " by this means, moreover, it is arahantship that is talked about. For arahantship is spoken of as "the driving out, by way of tranquillization, of the 'I am' conceit"; and there is known no bliss behond this, for which reason he said "This is indeed the highest bliss". So did he bring that teaching to a climax by way of arahantship." ***** S: Thank you again for your inspiring post. Enjoy the rest of your holiday. Metta, Sarah ======= #65882 From: han tun Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 5:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 593- The Stages of Insight(o) hantun1 Dear Sarah, In Cetasikas' study corner 593- The Stages of Insight (o) (message # 65707): 1) For details see Appendix 9. The way of counting of the stages of insight may vary depending on whether the counting starts at the first stage of principal insight or at the third stage of tender insight, and whether paññå arising in the process during which enlightenment occurs, paññå accompanying the lokuttara cittas and paññå which “reviews” after that process is over, is included or not. ---------- Han: The above passage indicated that counting the stages of insight may vary depending on how differently it is counted by different people. What I mentioned was one such possibility of counting ten vipassanaa ~naanas starting from sammasana ~naana. If another person counted otherwise I will not have any objection. ---------- Han: The way of counting that I mentioned was not without support. In ABHIDHAMMATTHA – SANGAHA of Anuruddhācariya http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_9.htm the following ten vipassanaa insights are mentioned. 1. Sammasanañānam, 2. Udayavyayañānam, 3. Bhangañānam, 4. Bhayañānam, 5. ādīnavañānam, 6. Nibbidāñānam, 7. Muñcitukamyatāñānam, 8. Patisankhāñānam, 9. Samkhārupekkhāñānam, 10. Anulomañānam c'āti dasa Vipassanāñānāni. The explanation for the above Pali words are given as follows. There are ten kinds of Insight: 1. Investigating knowledge, 2. Knowledge with regard to the arising and passing away (of conditioned things), 3. Knowledge with regard to the dissolution (of things), 4. Knowledge (of dissolving things) as fearful, 5. Knowledge of (fearful) things as baneful, 6. Knowledge of (baneful) things as disgusting, 7. Knowledge as regards the wish to escape from them, 8. Knowledge of reflecting contemplation, 9. Knowledge of equanimity towards conditioned things, and 10. Knowledge of adaptation ---------- Han: Also in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, translated by Mahaathera Naarada and translation revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi, on page 346, the above classification is mentioned. ---------- Han: In The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon, on page 407, it is stated as follows. The two knowledges, i.e. naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naana and pccaya-priggaha-~naana, are very important. They are the basic knowledges in insight-meditations and they constitute the foundations for the arising of ten vipassanaa-~naanas in later stages. They are not included in vipassanaa-~naanas because they do not concentrate on the three characteristic marks (tilakkhana) of existence. Nevertheless, they reveal the insight nature of the ultimate realities concerning naama and ruupa. End Quote. The reason for not including naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naana and pccaya-priggaha-~naana is given there. ---------- Dear Sarah, I have only responded to your invitation mentioned with each presentation: “Questions, comments and different views welcome.” So I have expressed my opinion. If another person has a different opinion, I will not have any objection. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, (Nina & all), > > You gave an interesting reply to this extract on the > Stages of Insight. > I'm afraid I had to put some posts aside to consider > more carefully now > I'm 'picking up': <.....> > Always good to hear your deep and profound > reflections as Howard said:-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== > #65883 From: han tun Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 5:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 593- The Stages of Insight(o) hantun1 Dear Sarah, In my last post, the Pali words for ten vipassanaa insights did not turn up well. Please read them as follows. 1. Sammasana~naanam, 2. Udayavyaya~naanam, 3. Bhanga~naanam, 4. Bhaya~naanam, 5. aadiinava~naanam, 6. Nibbidaa~naanam, 7. Muncitukamyataa~naanam, 8. Patisankhaa~naanam, 9. Samkhaarupekkhaa~naanam, 10. Anuloma~naanam c'aati dasa Vipassanaa~naanaani. I am sorry for the inconvenience that may have been caused. Respectfully, Han --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > 1. Sammasanañā nam, 2. Udayavyayañ&# 257;nam, 3. Bhangañā nam, 4. Bhayañānam, 5. ādī navañā nam, 6. Nibbidāñ ānam, 7. Muñcitukamyat& #257;ñā nam, 8. Patisankhāñ ānam, 9. Samkhārupekkh& #257;ñā nam, 10. Anulomañā nam c'āti dasa Vipassanāñ ān&# 257;ni. #65884 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 593- The Stages of Insight(o) nilovg Dear Han, I am always glad when you bring up points, they are worth considering. The book by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon must be very good, and I hope you will quote often. I do not have it. True that the first two stages of tender insight are directed more to the visesa lakkhana, and the higher stages are directed to the sama~n~na lakkhana. The Visuddhimagga includes the first stage of taru.na vipassanaa in Ch XVIII, under di.t.thi visuddhi neddesa. I am glad Dr. Mehm stresses the importance of the two first stages. It seems that these are often overlooked. As always, appreciating your posts, Nina. Op 5-dec-2006, om 14:04 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > In The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm > Tin Mon, on page 407, it is stated as follows. > The two knowledges, i.e. naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naana > and pccaya-priggaha-~naana, are very important. They > are the basic knowledges in insight-meditations and > they constitute the foundations for the arising of ten > vipassanaa-~naanas in later stages. They are not > included in vipassanaa-~naanas because they do not > concentrate on the three characteristic marks > (tilakkhana) of existence. Nevertheless, they reveal > the insight nature of the ultimate realities > concerning naama and ruupa. End Quote. #65885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 10:42 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana II, 5. nilovg Dear friends, A friend wrote to me about a meditation technique he applies in order to experience the impermanence of rúpas of the body. Through concentration on rúpas of the body he thinks that he can experience the change of rúpas such as heat of the body. He finds it such an intellectual struggle to grasp the truth of anattå (non-self) and through the experience of impermanence he believes that he can realize the truth of anattå more easily. He thinks that by this method all the stages of insight, vipassanå ñåùas, can be reached. When the rúpa which is heat appears, there must also be nåma which experiences heat. In order to know the truth there should not only be awareness of rúpa but also of nåma, the element which experiences something. If there is no awareness and right understanding which realizes nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa, there is an idea of self who feels hot or "my body" which is hot. There is "somebody" or "something" there, thus, one clings to a "self". There is the deeply rooted idea of self, even when we do not think, "I feel", or "This is my body". It is not easy to understand the meaning of anattå, as the writer of the letter remarks. We should consider what the Buddha taught about anattå . He clearly showed the conditions for each reality which arises. Since there are conditions for the nåmas and rúpas which arise we cannot exert control over their arising. "Beyond control" is one way to describe the nature of anattå. When the right conditions are present, a rúpa such as heat may impinge on the bodysense. Bodysense is a kind of rúpa which is produced by kamma. Nobody can create his own bodysense. The bodysense is all over the body, it can be outside or inside. When heat impinges on the bodysense there are conditions for the arising of body-consciousness which experiences the heat just for a short moment and then it falls away. It merely experiences the heat and it does not know anything else. Feeling accompanies the body-consciousness, it is a cetasika which feels on account of the tangible object which is experienced. When tangible object is pleasant, pleasant bodily feeling accompanies body- consciousness, and when it is unpleasant, painful bodily feeling accompanies body-consciousness. Shortly afterwards there are likely to be akusala cittas which may be akusala cittas rooted in attachment, accompanied by pleasant or by indifferent feeling, or akusala cittas rooted in aversion, accompanied by unpleasant feeling, or akusala cittas rooted in ignorance, accompanied by indifferent feeling. Sometimes there can be kusala cittas accompanied by pleasant feeling or by indifferent feeling. We can learn through awareness that when the feeling is not unpleasant there is usually attachment to objects. ******** Nina. #65886 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 10:38 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe, 142 nilovg Dear friends, Perfect adjustment of oneself is ``adjusting oneself'' with kusala as the goal. There are many degrees of kusala. If one develops the wisdom of the eightfold Path in being mindful of nåma and rúpa, there will be less clinging to the concept of self. If there is mindfulness of nåma and rúpa while performing wholesome deeds, one will come to realize that no self, no person performs these deeds. In that way kusala kamma will be purer and eventually defilements will be eradicated. The accumulation of kusala in the past is the fourth factor which is helpful. The kusala kammas which were accumulated in the past are the condition for us to go to the right place and meet the right people. It is kamma which causes one to be born in a Buddhist country or to live in a Buddhist country. The kusala accumulated in the past conditions our study and practice of the Dhamma at the present time. If we consider the factors in our life which are the conditions for kusala we will understand more clearly that it is not self who performs good deeds. In the Abhidhamma we learn that there are eight types of mahå-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness. Why isn't there only one type? The reason is that each type has its own conditions for its arising. If we know about these different types and if we can be aware of them when their characteristics present themselves, it will help us not to take them for self. Four types of mahå-kusala cittas arise with somanassa (pleasant feeling) and four types arise with upekkhå (indifferent feeling). We would like to have kusala cittas with somanassa, because we cling to somanassa. However, we cannot force somanassa to arise. Sometimes we perform dåna with somanassa, sometimes with upekkhå. It depends on conditions whether somanassa or whether upekkhå arises with the mahå-kusala citta. Four types are accompanied by wisdom; four types are not accompanied by wisdom. We may, for example, help others without paññå or with paññå. When we realize that helping is kusala, or when we are aware of the nåma or rúpa appearing at that moment, there is paññå arising with the mahå-kusala citta. Four types are asa.nkhårika (unprompted, spontaneous, not induced by someone else or by one's own consideration) and four types are sasa.nkhårika (prompted, by someone else or by oneself). ******* Nina. #65887 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 11:11 am Subject: awareness and thinking, nimitta. nilovg Dear Fabian, --------- F: I asked Vipassana yanika meditator, they don't experience nimitta, maybe only samatha yanika meditator experience nimitta? ------- N: Nimitta in samatha refers to the meditation subject of samatha, it has a meaning different from sankhaara nimitta, the sign of conditioned dhammas, the nimittas of the five khandhas. The notion of sankharanimitta occurs in the Path of Discrimination and also in commentaries. As Sarah explained, When you swirl such a fire stick it seems that you see a lasting image, like a line or circle. That is only the appearance of it, it is like magic. The notion of nimitta reminds us that visible object, sound, etc. arise and fall away so fast, so that what we experience is a sign of it. Sa~n~naa has marked it and remembers it. This does not mean that there cannot be awareness of characteristics of dhammas, one at a time, otherwise insight could not be developed. We can begin. We are reminded that we cling actually to what exists no more, it is gone. Isn't that strange? We can reflect on that more. .... F: I practice vipassana (directly) before, I think nimitta (like patibhaga nimitta) only arises at the third stage of nana, and it is still considered as vipassana kilesa, and the rest of nana (udayabaya nana and forward) nimitta does not arises, what appears are only objects of attention (nama-rupa) arises together with, or without concept, only after meditator achieved sankharupekkha nana the conceptual thought not arises when we are in deep concentration. ------- N:Insight is not the same as deep concentration, it is different from samatha. Nimitta we speak about now is nimitta of a reality, not a special experience. As Sarah explained, F:... unconceptual mind which discern nama-rupa without reacting, is only arises at later stage when the insight is near ripe (around sankharupekkha nana), maybe what you say about nimitta is nama-rupa objects? ------- N: Also now we experience the nimitta, the shadow of realities. As insight develops, the object is the same, but understanding becomes stronger. It is all in daily life, it pertains to all objects we experience just now, colour, hardness, sound. Nina. #65888 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipallaasa nilovg Dear Fabian, Op 4-dec-2006, om 15:03 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > I agree we just say what we > think is good, but may we express our own comment based on our > experience even though it seems not in line with the scriptures? ------- N: We can express our own comment and it may be wrong. It is good to check what the Tipitaka and the Commentaries say. I did not quite get what you mean. You refer to conceit here? Cittas arise and fall away so fast and kusala cittas alternate with akusala cittas. It is hard to tell when there is conceit as regards ourselves, and as to others we do not know. ------- > > F: Especially the purpose is to explain a twisted question? ------- N: Sorry, I do not understand what type of question you are referring to. Nina. #65889 From: "m_nease" Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 11:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 593- The Stages of Insight(o) m_nease Hi Nina and Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Han, I am always glad when you bring up points, they are worth > considering. The book by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon must be very good, and I > hope you will quote often. I do not have it. > True that the first two stages of tender insight are directed more to > the visesa lakkhana, and the higher stages are directed to the > sama~n~na lakkhana. > The Visuddhimagga includes the first stage of taru.na vipassanaa in > Ch XVIII, under di.t.thi visuddhi neddesa. > I am glad Dr. Mehm stresses the importance of the two first stages. > It seems that these are often overlooked. Thanks again Han, I found this interesting too and I'd forgotten about the first two. In looking for reminders about vivesa vs sama~n~na lakkhana, I found this from Nina's 'Cetasikas': "Each reality has its own specific characteristic by which it can be distinguished from another reality (distinctive mark or visesa lakkhana. Seeing, hearing, hardness or sound have each their own characteristic. However, there are also three general characteristics common to all conditioned realities (samanna lakkhana) and these are: impermanence, dukkha or unsatisfactoriness, and anatta, non-self. When understanding has been developed it can eventually know realities as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. There cannot, in the beginning, be clear understanding of the true nature of realities. Understanding develops gradually in different stages." I also found this old post from 2002 from our old friend Kom, regrettably absent from the list these days. It is only incidentally pertinent to the subject but so good I thought I'd repost it anyway: "Have you ever smelled a pungent odor that you immediately dislike? It is the dosa that replled the object: it has that smell as its aramana. All the conascent states, including the citta along with other cetasikas, also has the smell as the aramana. Domanassa vedana co-arises with dosa-mula citta, the feeling associated with the citta, having the smell as its object, is unpleasant. If you read further on (in ADL), you will see that the cittas arising on the panca-dvara (5 sense door) all have the same object as aramana. Although dosa-mula citta doesn't smell (as that is the function of kana-vinnana citta), it has the smell as its aramana. When dosa-mula citta arises in the panca-dvara vithi, the object of the citta is still present (has not fallen away). When dosa-mula citta arises in the mano-dvara vithi, virtually immediately after the panca-dvara vithi, the dosa-mula cittas have the same rupa (but the rupa has already fallen away) as the aramana. Although logically, the dosa-mula citta is cognizing the memory of the visesa lakkana of the fallen away rupa, I don't think the text exactly says this. How this exactly works is probably very intricate, and may not be very important (because this happens so fast we won't be able to tell the difference anyway)." Thanks again Han and Nina. mike #65890 From: han tun Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 2:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 593- The Stages of Insight(o) hantun1 Dear Mike (and Nina), Thank you very much for your post. I also appreciate your mentioning of visesa vs sama~n~na lakkhana taken from Nina's 'Cetasikas'; Kom’s explanation on the conascent states, including the citta along with other cetasikas, and the aramana; and the panca-dvara (5 sense door) process and the secondary mind-door process as explained in ADL. In the beginning, I got confused with visesa lakkhana and sama~n~na lakkhana. It maybe because of our everyday usage of the word sama~n~na which means something which is very ordinary and not so important. Now, it is okay. Respectfully, Han #65891 From: han tun Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 593- The Stages of Insight(o) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind response. The contents and arrangement of chapters in Dr. Mehm Tin Mon’s book are more or less the same as in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma. But I find some explanations given by Dr. Mehm Tin Mon are more easily understandable. I will quote him in the future when opportunity arises. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I am glad Dr. Mehm stresses the importance of the > two first stages. > It seems that these are often overlooked. > As always, appreciating your posts, > Nina. #65892 From: "Gunasaro" Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 8:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) gunasaro.fang@... Dear All: So sorry, OOT... It was back to my first year of starting to learn Dhamma. I met Bro Fabian in Vihara Jakarta Dhammacakka Jaya & he'd like to lend me a thin book; I'm not quite sure with the title ± "An Introduction of Abhidhamma by Nina van Gorkom". The only impression I got at the time was: the writer was not an Asian. I opened few pages & gave it back to Bro Fabian. I felt silly at that time, why was I supposed to learn about mind etc? My focus at the time was religious comparison. I took me many years, a quite long process 'till few months ago I decided to focus in learning Abhidhamma. Sincerely thanking You all... Sukhi Hotu, Gunasaro * * * * * * * ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 2:30 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) Dear Fabian, I am so happy to welcome you here. That session in the vihara in Jakarta was a very good one, I remember it. I shall answer later on, I had some computer trouble, lost some data and I have to do revisions. Nina. Op 4-dec-2006, om 14:02 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > I am a new comer, > but I met you long time ago in Vihara Buddha metta in Jakarta, . #65893 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 4:12 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,120 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch.XVII [iii Consciousness] [(1) Kinds of Mundane Resultant Consciousness] 120. In the clause, 'with formations as condition, consciousness', consciousness is sixfold as eye-consciousness, and so on. Herein, eye-consciousness is twofold, namely, profitable [kamma-] resultant and unprofitable [kamma-] resultant. Likewise ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body consciousness. But mind consciousness is twenty-two-fold, namely, the two profitable and unprofitable resultant mind elements and, the three root-causeless mind-consciousness elements, and the eight sense-sphere resultant consciousnesses with root-cause, the five of the fine-material sphere, and the four of the immaterial sphere. So all the thirty-two mundane resultant consciousnesses are included by these six kinds of consciousness. But the supramundane kinds do not belong to the exposition of the round [of becoming], and so they are not included. *********************** sa"nkhaarapaccayaavi~n~naa.napadavitthaarakathaa 120. sa"nkhaarapaccayaa vi~n~naa.napade -- vi~n~naa.nanti cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadi chabbidha.m. tattha cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m kusalavipaaka.m akusalavipaakanti duvidha.m hoti. tathaa sotaghaanajivhaakaayavi~n~naa.naani. manovi~n~naa.na.m kusalaakusalavipaakaa dve manodhaatuyo, tisso ahetukamanovi~n~naa.nadhaatuyo, a.t.tha sahetukaani kaamaavacaravipaakacittaani, pa~nca ruupaavacaraani, cattaari aruupaavacaraaniiti baaviisatividha.m hoti. iti imehi chahi vi~n~naa.nehi sabbaanipi baatti.msa lokiyavipaakavi~n~naa.naani sa"ngahitaani honti. lokuttaraani pana va.t.takathaaya na yujjantiiti na gahitaani. #65894 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 9:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) nilovg Dear Gunasaro, Welcome to dsg. Wonderful to meet you. Are you still going to the Vihara, do you still live in Jakarta? I meant to ask Fabian too. If you have remarks or questions on Abhidhamma, do ask. Looking forward to hearing from you, Nina. Op 5-dec-2006, om 17:04 heeft Gunasaro het volgende geschreven: > It was back to my first year of starting to learn Dhamma. I met Bro > Fabian in Vihara Jakarta Dhammacakka Jaya & he'd like to lend me a > thin book; I'm not quite sure with the title ± "An Introduction of > Abhidhamma by Nina van Gorkom #65895 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 9:37 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 601- The Stages of Insight(w) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Tens, Chapter III, § 3, With Body(1)) that wrong bodily action can be abandoned by right bodily action and wrong speech by right speech. However, the three unwholesome roots of lobha, dosa and moha can only be eradicated by understanding. The text states: *** "Which are the things, O monks, that can neither be abandoned by bodily acts nor by speech, but can be abandoned by wisely seeing them? Greed can neither be abandoned by bodily acts nor by speech; but it can be abandoned by wisely seeing it. Hatred can neither be abandoned by bodily acts nor by speech; but it can be abandoned by wisely seeing it. Delusion can neither be abandoned by bodily acts nor by speech; but it can be abandoned by wisely seeing it." *** 1) I am using the translation by Ven. Nyanaponika, in The Roots of Good and Evil,p. 55, Wheel 251/ 253, B.P.S. Kandy, 1978. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65897 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 9:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) sarahprocter... Dear Gunasaro & Fabian, I'd also like to extend a warm welcome to you both. Clearly you are both keen Abhidhamma students and we can all learn a lot from your participation here. Fabian, you're asking very interesting and detailed questions. --- Gunasaro wrote: > It was back to my first year of starting to learn Dhamma. I met Bro > Fabian in Vihara Jakarta Dhammacakka Jaya & he'd like to lend me a thin > book; I'm not quite sure with the title ± "An Introduction of Abhidhamma > by Nina van Gorkom". The only impression I got at the time was: the > writer was not an Asian. I opened few pages & gave it back to Bro > Fabian. I felt silly at that time, why was I supposed to learn about > mind etc? My focus at the time was religious comparison. > I took me many years, a quite long process 'till few months ago I > decided to focus in learning Abhidhamma. .... S: This is a good story and an interesting introduction, thank you! If either of you or anyone else would also like a hard copy of Ajahn Sujin's book 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', translated by Nina, or a hard copy of 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' (if still available), pls let Nina, Sukin or I know off-list so we can arrange it. (No cost involved). I'll look forward to talking to you both later. Metta, Sarah ======== #65898 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 10:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Only this is true anything else is worthless? sarahprocter... Hi JC (& Howard), To add to Howard's comments: --- upasaka@... wrote: JC:> > In Majjhima Nikaya 95 Canki Sutta (With Canki), it is said that "But > > to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? > > To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama > > about the safeguarding of the truth." <...> > > Why can't one come to the conclusion that "Only this is true, anything > > else is worthless?" before a truth one learned is safeguarded? : > > "But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is > > true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there > > is the safeguarding of the truth." ..... S: The Brahmins were extremely knowledgable in many ways, but only by investigating, hearing the Dhamma, examining it, scrutinising it with wisdom and so on is there said to be 'the discovery of the truth'. And even then, there is no 'final arrival at truth' until nibbana is realised at the stage of sotapatti magga. Only then it is said that there is the 'arrival' and 'safeguarding' of the truth only as I understand and the preservation of the truth. All wrong views have been eradicated. Until that time, wrong views can lead us astray and lead us to have convictions like the brahmins in the sutta about the wrong path. .... > > Isn't our conviction in the Dhamma likewise in holding and > > safeguarding its truth? Though not to the extent of saying anything > > else is worthless, it does require that some things be considered > > worthless. Or did I misinterpret the meaning of the sutta? .... S: When it's the right path of satipatthana, there can be confidence in the Dhamma. At moments of right view, there's no doubt about what is right. At moments of wrong view, the reverse is true as I see it. I'll be glad to hear any of your (or anyone else's) further comments on what I or Howard have said on this important sutta. I thought you raised very good points as usual. Metta, Sarah Howard: > ======================= > In this sutta, the Buddha distinguished safeguarding the truth > from > having awakened to the truth. One who has awakened to the truth - knows. > But for > one who has not awakened to the truth, s/he has merely a conviction or > belief > of some degree of certainty. For such a one to say that what s/he > believes is > truth and that all else is falsehood is not only arrogant, but is > playing > fast and loose with reality, for, after all, only believing and not > truly > knowing, his/her assertion is quite possibly false, and thus not > safeguarding truth. > But a person who merely has a conviction, and *says* only that s/he has > that > conviction speaks truly and therby safeguards the truth. This is why the > words > "I believe" should be an important part of our speech. We may even say > "I am > certain" and safeguard the truth. But to say "It is so, and not > otherwise" if > one does not uncontestable know is to not act quite as one should. That > is my > understanding. #65899 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 10:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 100,000 Aeons sarahprocter... Hi JC, --- JC Mendoza wrote: > To Sarah: > Do you have a source for the answer that the next Awakened One after > 100,000 aeons is for this world system? .... S: I gave this source: > Translated from the Introduction to the Jâtaka (i.4328). > <...> > Our Future Buddha, in his passage through four immensities and a > hundred thousand world-cycles to the present time, > > p. 33 [J.i.4415 > > has made his wish under twenty-four of these Buddhas beginning with > Dîpamkara. .... S: Is this not adequate? If not, pls explain exactly what you're looking for. ... >There are no sections on > "World-Cycles" in the text you gave. .... S: I gave the following link: > I think you may be interested to read the following and also ch 69 on > 'World Cycles' from the same text (too much to quote in one post): > > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm Ch69: World Cycles .... S: I gave this source because it's on-line and I don't know if you have the Vism. If you have the Vism., it's taken from ch X111 Note that it says that 'the eighty great disciples can call to mind former states of existence for one hundred thousand world-cycles; the two chief disciples, for one immensity and one hundred thousand world-cycles; Private Buddhas, for two immensities and one hundred thousand world-cycles, for such is the limit of their earnest wish. But The Buddhas have their power unlimited." Lots and lots of interesting detail and numbers for you:-). .... > Also, I accidentally deleted the message about "manusyaloka" but the > source of the source from which I took it must have been > Theravada/Mahayana as it sadi they have more or less the same cosmology > it doesn't have a Pali text. Why do you need a Pali text? .... S: I think the details are often different. If it refers to 'manusyaloka'. it is more likely to be a Mahayana source. That's fine, but there was something in your original quote or comment (I forget what) which wasn't as I understand from the Theravada sources. That's why I asked for a Theravada/Pali source as that's what we (mostly) discuss here:-). .... > About your questions on why I need to know these things it just helps > one be more aware of landscape in Samsara as well as its events that are > unfolding or will unfold. .... S: Did you see my other post addressed to you, Han & Howard with reference to understanding the 'world' at this moment? I agree with you that the 'landscape' is quite interesting, but do you think it's possible to understand what samsara is without understanding the world appearing through the six senses now as we speak? Thanks for helping me to reflect further, JC. It's good to discuss dhamma with you! Metta, Sarah ======== #65900 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipallaasas and sotaapanna sarahprocter... Hi Mike (& Han), --- m_nease wrote: > Actually I'm afraid very little reflection went into my post-- .... S: Another modest one....:-) ... > > > S: Of course, all other kinds of wrong view depend on > sakkaaya-ditthi). > > This sounds familiar Sarah but could you please remind me of the > source text? .... S: I'm sure there are many, but here's one B.Bodhi quotes in his intro to his transl of the Brahmajala Sutta and commentaries: "Now, householder, as to those divers views that arise in the world, ....and as to these sixty-two views set forth in the Brahmajala, it is owing to the personality view (sakkaaya-di.t.thi)that they arise, and if the personality view exists not, they do not exist"(S 1V.7.3) Without sakkaya-ditthi, no other wrong views could arise. .... > > > > But he still has some amount of > > > sa~n~naa vipallaasa, perversion of perception, and > > > citta vipallaasa, perversion of thought. That's why he > > > is still married and weeps when his wife or son dies. > > > But these two remaining perversions are not as strong > > > as in a puthujjana, and they arise only when a > > > sotaapanna is heedless. When he is aware of things > > > with yonisomanasikaara or when he is practicing > > > vipassanaa bhaavanaa such perversions cannot arise. > > Of course this material isn't new to the list (though I think the > Sayadaw's quotation is). Nina posted the Vism. passage recently I > think and others (including you?) have also written about the > different usages of 'vipallaasa'. I'd fallen into the habit of > thinking of it only in the context of di.t.thivipallaasa which of > course is far more limited than the real scope of the term. It is > significant to me because perversion of consciousness or of perception > can occur even when wrong view is not present. .... S: Yes, most the time, in fact! ... >Different factors > though no doubt compatible. I also tend to fall into the habitual > error of thinking of wrong view as conceptual when of course it is > actually akusala kamma (cetanaa). Big mistake. .... S: Well, usually concepts are the objects of wrong view. Of course, ditthi and cetana are two different cetasikas, but I think you are rightly saying that the cetana arising with it is of the degree of akusala kamma patha.......(Whether this is always so, I'd have to think about. I understand wrong view can even arise in a sense-door process, when of course only rupa is experienced). .... > Han's quote from the Sayadaw just struck me in a way that other > writing on the subject hasn't done, at least recently. As we've often > observed it's good to see these points again and again, sometimes they > 'work' better than others. ... S: I agree with this. Different aspects and comments from different Sayadaws or friends here can be very illuminating and as you say, some 'work' better for us than others. Pls let us know of anything else you come across that 'works' for you, as others are likely to benefit too. Thanks again, Han for introducing this material. Metta, Sarah ========= #65901 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 11:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Argument Pertaining to "External Rupas" and "Internal Rupas" sarahprocter... Hi Howard, I know many others responded to your post to me on water and so on, so I'll just keep this pretty brief: --- upasaka@... wrote: > > S: The visible objects, sounds, smells and tastes are experienced by > > seeing consciousness and so on, accompanied by indifferent feeling. > > However, the nature of the visible objects and these other rupas is > said > > to be intrinsically pleasant, unpleasant (or very pleasant). > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I assume that what you are saying is that they are indifferently > felt > dring the 5-sense-door mindstate but pleasantly or unpleasantly during > the > subsequent mind-door state. .... S: Yes, usually. Of course they may also be indifferently felt during the subsequent mind-door state. But generally, pleasant objects are experienced with lobha with pleasant (though sometimes indifferent) feeling and unpleasant objects with dosa (always accompanied by unpleasant feeling). When it is just moha (without lobha or dosa)arising, then the feeling is indifferent always. ... >Is that your meaning? To be intrinsically > non-neutral > would have to require being felt non-neutrally in *some* respect, else > the > notion would be utterly empty. .... S: Yes, the neutral feeling referred to is that accompanying the momentary seeing, hearing, smelling or tasting which don't have the same 'impact' on experience as bodily touch. .... ,...> > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > It may be so that liquidity and cohesiveness and any of the other > > things we associate with "water" are not experienced by body sense. As I > think > about it, when touching liquid, all that is actually experirnced are > such things > as coolness, smoothness, etc. .... S: Right. ... >(I'm not sure whether wetness is a > distinct > experirnce, though it might be.) ... S: A particular combination of experienced rupas (solidity, temperature and motion) ... >Certainly, I do not touch cohesion! ... S: Exactly! ... > But that only leaves concept for me. If I don't know "water" > through > body sense, which may in fact be the case, then I don't know liquidity > or > cohesiveness by any means other than conceptual construction based upon > body-sense > and eye-sense contacts. Do you? ... S: Just like you, it's merely a concept thought about. However, just because we don't have the wisdom to directly know this rupa through the mind-door like the Buddha and his disciples who'd accumulated so much panna, it doesn't mean it wasn't possible for them and isn't possible for those with the 'right' accumulations. The same applies to the direct understanding of all the subtle rupas which are merely concepts for us now. ... >What is the mystery of "water" that > requires > special insight? The > "water element" isn't some lokuttara dhamma requiring special wisdom for > its > experiencing. ... S: No, but the 'mystery' is because it's said to not easily be known, because it doesn't appear through any of the 5 sense-doors. It's not 'near'. .... > P.S. The more I think about it, the less persuaded I am that the "water > element" is anything other than concept. Cohesion, for example, does not > appear to > be an elementary feature of experience, but a concept based upon a > multitude > of experiences. ... S: Yes, now it is only experienced by thinking. However, there has to be the reality of 'cohesion', of apo dhatu in order for the other rupas to arise together in a kalapa. Whilst we can say this is just theoretical, or just quoting the texts, I don't think it's wise to just reject the possibility that these dhammas exist, just because we haven't directly proved them. Metta, Sarah ======= #65902 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Howard), --- ken_aitch wrote: > S: > Uh, oh - Just when Howard and I managed to wrap up the thread 'on > the same page':-) As I understand it, Howard and I are both agreeing > that concepts such as 'things' cannot be said to impermanent because > they don't exist. > --------------- > > No, I think you have missed Howard's point. ... S: OK, Howard clarified. ... > S: > I'd say, an 'actual' directly observable characterstic/aspect of > a paramattha dhamma...not as an observable 'thing' in its own > right....but I don't think you can be saying that:-/??? > ------------------------- > > I don't know what I think. :-) I could be persuaded either way. When a > scientist observes that a certain element is, for example, magnetic he > doesn't see (directly observe) magnetism, does he? But I thought it > would be different in satipatthana. I thought that, rather than > inferring anicca from the data (by experiment, as it were), panna > would directly observe anicca. Maybe that is what you are saying too. > :-/??? ... S: Yes, directly know anicca, but anicca OF A REALITY, not anicca in a vacuum. .... <...> > I was wondering if panna experienced an entire dhamma at any one > moment or just one of its characteristics. .... S: One characteristic of the dhamma at a time. This is why prior to sotapattimagga, it's the anicca, dukkha OR anatta characteristic of a dhamma which appears. (Of course, all 3 characteristics have appeared over and over again by this stage, but according to accumulations one 'manifests' at such a time. Like when we look at a glass of juice, the juice or the empty part of the glass might be noticed. ... >In any case, we clearly > agree that anicca is something to be *directly* observed, and not just > to be observed *by inference.* It is not a matter of observing, "First > a conditioned dhamma was here and now it has gone, therefore, it had > the characteristic, anicca!" ... S: Exactly - when we think we see or observe impermanence now, that's the conceptual kind of impermanence that anyone knows about. Not the direct understanding of impermanence of a nama or a rupa, by clearly understanding the precise nature of those namas and rupas. ... > > Phew! How are we going? :-) .... S: Oh, we always do fine, though I'm been even slower than usual to get back on this. Look forward to more controversies:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #65903 From: JC Mendoza Date: Tue Dec 5, 2006 11:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 100,000 Aeons jcmendoza1000 To Sarah: I think you misunderstood my first question. I asked from what source did you get your answer for saying that the next Awakened One coming after 100,000 aeons is only for this world system. It isn't in the link you gave. What is the title of book of the link you gave me? Are they the commentaries? Are they written by people of olden times or by modern writers? And why did it say that the power of the Buddha to recall past lives is unlimited when he said that a beginning point of Samsara is "not cognizable" as well as an end point? sarah abbott wrote: Hi JC, --- JC Mendoza wrote: > To Sarah: > Do you have a source for the answer that the next Awakened One after > 100,000 aeons is for this world system? .... S: I gave this source: > Translated from the Introduction to the Jâtaka (i.4328). > <...> > Our Future Buddha, in his passage through four immensities and a > hundred thousand world-cycles to the present time, > > p. 33 [J.i.4415 > > has made his wish under twenty-four of these Buddhas beginning with > Dîpamkara. .... S: Is this not adequate? If not, pls explain exactly what you're looking for. <....> #65904 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 100,000 Aeons sarahprocter... Hi JC (Ken O & all), --- JC Mendoza wrote: > To Sarah: > I think you misunderstood my first question. I asked from what source > did you get your answer for saying that the next Awakened One coming > after 100,000 aeons is only for this world system. It isn't in the link > you gave. .... S: I believe the definitions of world-cycles are given in human world-cycle terms unless stated otherwise, but it's not an area I know much about. For example, I gave you a link to this reference in 'World-cycles' as quoted from the Vism in 'Buddhism in Translations' by Henry Clarke Warren: "Can call to mind--Can remember by following either the succession of the groups, or the sequence of births and deaths. For there are six classes of persons who can call to mind former states of existence: members of other sects, ordinary disciples, great disciples, chief disciples, Private Buddhas, and Buddhas. Now members of other sects can call to mind former states of existence for forty world-cycles,(1) and no more." .... S: the footnote to (1) is to a well-known sutta from SN, XV,5 which gives the definition of a world cycle: "It is as if, O priest, there were a mountain consisting of a great rock, a league in length, a league in width, a league in height, without break, cleft, or hollow, and every hundred years *a man* were to come and rub it once with a silken garment; that mountain consisting of a great rock, O priest, would more quickly wear away and come to an end than a world-cycle. O priest, *this is the length of a world-cycle*. And many such cycles, O priest, have rolled by, and many hundreds of cycles, and many thousands of cycles, and many hundreds of thousands of cycles......" .... > What is the title of book of the link you gave me? ... S: As given above. Didn't the link give it? If not, I apologise. ... >Are they the > commentaries? ... S: The texts quoted were the 'Introduction to the Jatakas' and 'The Visuddhimagga'. Yes, these are both commentaries. ... >Are they written by people of olden times or by modern > writers? ... S: The Visuddhimagga is the well-known commentary compiled by Buddhaghosa in around the 5th century. I don't think the origin of the 'Intro to Jatakas' is known, but it is also an old text. If you are REALLY interested, I'll try to check in the intro. .... >And why did it say that the power of the Buddha to recall past > lives is unlimited when he said that a beginning point of Samsara is > "not cognizable" as well as an end point? ... S: OOh, you do ask difficult questions:-). Reminds me of another friend, Ken O, when he first joined us. Very quick off the mark! For the Buddha, he could know anything he put his mind to. So if he wished he could know previous lives (his or others) indefinitely back into the past. It's just a question of what he applied his knowledge to at any moment. Let me know how I'm doing now and keep questioning and challenging - that's fine, though there may be delays as I attend to other duties and posts. Isn't it your turn to answer some of my questions about where you live and knowing the world now, for a start??? (No need, if you'd rather not, of course:-)). I hope others will help me out too... Metta, Sarah p.s Can we remind all newcomers to 'trim' posts please - not necessary to re-post the whole of the letter or letters you're responding to - just enough for the context. ..... #65905 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 2:14 am Subject: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka antony272b2 Dear Sarah, Christine and all, I am working to clarify the relationship between the concept of kamma- vipaka, which seems to say that our history of receiving compassion from others is just the results of our own "personal" past kusala kamma, versus the teaching on Kata~n~nutaa (gratitude), which says that we were born utterly helpless and have survived to adulthood through the "unpurchased" compassion of our parents. I suspect that the two teachings are "skillful means". Kamma-vipaka is used to cultivate upekkha (even-mindedness), whilst gratitude is related to mudita (appreciative joy). Upekkha is always taught in the context of the other three Brahmaviharas (metta (friendliness), karuna (compassion), mudita). Upekkha isn't a sense of "I told you so" which would mean that one's metta has slipped (see wildmind.org) ++++ Background reading (one paragraph): In his book on the Maha Mangala Sutta, Dr R.L.Soni wrote: "Kata~n~nutaa: gratitude. Literally this is "knowing what has been done," that is, remembering what others have done for oneself. The Buddha has said: "Two sorts of people are hard to find in the world: one who first does (something kind or helpful), and one who is grateful and recognizes (that kindness)." Without this quality a person forgets parents, relatives, friends, teachers, and those who teach him Dhamma, he turns his back on them just when they could be helped by him or when they are in need of aid. A selfish person seems to try to isolate himself from the world's web. "I alone am important," he says, and forgets all the benefit derived from others. On the other hand the grateful person makes for harmony and peace. How many good things have we obtained through others in this life and how many are we grateful for and then express our gratitude in speech and action?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soni/wheel254.html +++++ We see here that both kamma-vipaka and Kata~n~nutaa are based on what has been done (actions). The confusion is: "done by whom?". I think upekkha leads to one being grateful for *everything* compassionate: grateful to not only our parents but indirectly to all beings. When there is no opportunity to express gratitude to one's parents then upekkha "redirects our energies to where we can make a difference" (Thanissaro). There are about 13 entries in google for this quote: "You have no cause for anything but gratitude and joy. Author: The Buddha" Would the Buddha have made such a global statement? Thanks / Antony. #65906 From: "jcmendoza1000" Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 3:36 am Subject: Uposatha 2007 jcmendoza1000 To Everybody: Does anyone know the calendar for Uposatha 2007? -JC #65907 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 4:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 100,000 Aeons jwromeijn Hallo JC, Sarah, all Because I did study astrophysics as a natural science before Buddhism was my path, the texts on buddhist cosmology has interested me. My idea now: it's more Indian culture with its cyclic patterns then Buddhism per se. Most of it is not found in the words of the Buddha, in the Suttas, but in later texts. There is no reason, JC, to take this texts literal, better take them metaphorical: Buddhism is no natural science. The Buddha was silent about these these topics because they do not help in the awakening proces. Still, it's fascinating. The source you gave, Sarah (www.sacred- texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm) has most translations of hundred years old. I take a look at chapter 102, 'THE BUDDHIST APOCALYPSE'. There I found a translation of Anâgata-Vamsa (History of Future Events), According John Bullitt (Beyond the Tipitaka; A Field Guide to Post- canonical Pali Literature) It's composed by Mahakassapa of Cola; (12th c.?): The life story of Metteyya, the next Buddha What was special is that after doing a google search on 'Anagata- vamsa' it wre most christian site who quoted it, as an non-chistian example of apocalyptic ideas. Or - in my words - apocalyptic phantasies. Metta Joop BTW, Sarah, how about #65803, or is it better to be modest to get an response ? (joke) #65908 From: "matt roke" Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 5:21 am Subject: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling mattroke Hi Jon, Jon wrote: >By the way, I suppose 'inflicting harm' would include any kind of touching >done in anger, such as restraining (someone who was bent on harming us/ones >dear to us), and not just to a touching that causes pain. Is this how you >would see it too? If a sotapanna were to restrain someone I don’t believe they would do it out of anger directed at the individual or from fear, but there may be some other accumulations that makes them do it. If we were to observe such an action we may tale it to be brought on by fear or anger when it is neither. I presume that is why we worldlings can’t know which individuals are sotapannas. From my studies I can conceptionally appreciate that dhammas are impermanent and that sotapannas, when they have insight into dhamma moments, understand that there is no *me and mine* and so they cannot kill or have the intention to hurt someone. Beyond that, I do not see any value in knowing what accumulations a sotapanna may have because it would only be speculation (conceptional thinking) that does not help one understand dhamma moments any better or condition more wisdom. Matt #65909 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 5:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: > J: "...Who was that guy anyway?" > > Mr. Nervous. A product of an unanalalysed bit of the Oedipal > thing...now totally sorted out again Dad - I mean Jon. > Oh, Mr Nervous? I konw the guy well. He's been around pretty much my whole life (I've come to know him as Mr Maana). Jon #65910 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... jonoabb Hi Scott Great quotes. I never cease to be amazed at your (and others') ability to come up with nifty passages from the texts. Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Here's a start regarding: > > J: "I suppose you have in mind the opportunity for the development of > insight. Is there anything in the texts about the opportunities being > greater unmarried than married, unattached than attached, I wonder?" > > There is: > > SN 54: 189 190 (Bh. Bodhi) > "What is the support of human beings? > What is the best companion here? > The creatures who dwell on earth - > By what do they sustain their life?" > > "Sons are the support of human beings, > A wife the best companion; > The creatures who dwell on the earth > Sustain their life by rain." > > Spk: "...A wife is the best companion because one can confide in her > one's most personal secrets." > > Or, then again: > > SN 54: 199-200 > "What is a person's partner? > What is it that instructs him? > Taking delight in what is a mortal > Released from all suffering?" > > "Faith is a person's partner, > And wisdom instructs him. > Taking delight in Nibbaana, a mortal > Is released from all suffering." > > Or: > > SN 76: 237 > "Life undergoes destruction night and day; > Women are the stain of the holy life; > Here's where menfolk are enmeshed. > Austerity and the holy life - > That is the bath without water." > > Both sides supported. > Yes, both sides supported (although your last quote is perhaps on a slightly different point). So was the Buddha for or against? The answer of course (as you know) is neither; there's no right or wrong, better or worse, more desirable or less desirable. The situation is just like the monk vs. layperson thing. But since we're probably in agreement on this, we perhaps don't need to take it any further ;-)) Jon #65911 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 9:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matt roke" wrote: > >.... > > Beyond that, I do not see any value in knowing what accumulations a > sotapanna may have because it would only be speculation (conceptional > thinking) that does not help one understand dhamma moments any better or > condition more wisdom. > > Matt > Hallo Matt, all That's what I'm saying too. So I agree with you Joop #65912 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 10:55 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 143. nilovg Dear friends, The eight types of mahå-kusala cittas are the following: 1. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, unprompted (Somanassa-sahagata.m, ~naa.na sampayutta.m, asa"nkhaaria.m eka.m) 2. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, with wisdom, prompted (Somanassa- sahagata.m, ~naa.na-sampayutta.m, sasa"nkhaarika.m eka.m) 3. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, unprompted (Somanassa-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-vippayutta.m, asa"nkhaarika.m eka.m) 4. Accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, prompted (Somanassa-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-vippayutta.m, sasa"nkhaarika.m eka.m) 5. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, unprompted (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-sampayutta.m, asa"nkhaarika.m eka.m) 6. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, prompted (Upekkhå- sahagata.m, ~naa.na-sampayutta.m, sasa"nkhaarika.m eka.m) 7. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, unprompted (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-vippayutta.m, asa"nkhaarika.m eka.m) 8. Accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, prompted (Upekkhå-sahagata.m, ~naa.na-vippayutta.m, sasa"nkhaarika.m eka.m) Mahå-kusala cittas are not the only kind of kåmåvacara sobhana cittas (beautiful cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness). Mahå- kusala cittas are cittas which are cause; they can motivate kusala kamma through body, speech or mind which is capable of producing results. There are also mahå-vipåkacittas, which are results of kusala kamma performed with mahå-kusala cittas. Mahå-vipåkacittas are sobhana cittas too, arising with sobhana cetasikas. There are several types of mahå-vipåkacittas because the kusala kammas which produce them are of different kinds. **** Nina. #65913 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 11:04 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana II, 6. nilovg Dear friends, At first it may seem easy to be aware only of rúpas of the body. When we learn more about different types of nåma and rúpa we can see that it is not easy to have precise knowledge of any of them. When there is awareness of either nåma or rúpa right understanding of their characteristics can develop. When heat appears its characteristic can be known as only a rúpa. We do not have to think whether it is external heat or internal heat, we do not have to think of the spot of the body where it appears. It is only a rúpa which appears just for a moment, it does not belong to "my body", it is beyond control. Understanding of the different types of nåma and rúpa which appear through the appropriate doorways develops very gradually. It is only later on that paññå can realize the three general characteristics of nåma and rúpa, which are impermanence, dukkha and anattå. One may believe that one can select the object of awareness, but there are conditions for sati to be aware of an object. Sati is a cetasika, and understanding, paññå, is another cetasika. When there are the right conditions kusala citta accompanied by sati and paññå can arise. One cannot select any object of awareness, all realities which appear are beyond control. The Buddha spoke about the six doors in order to remind people that all realities of daily life should be known as they are. It is not easy at all to know precisely, through direct understanding, what nåma is and what rúpa. When paññå is still weak we are not sure whether a characteristic of rúpa or of nåma appears. Understanding has to be developed again and again. When there is direct experience of hardness or heat we may have doubts whether that was mindfulness or not. The fact that hardness or heat can be directly experienced without having to think about them does not mean that there is mindfulness of them. They are directly experienced by body-consciousness which is vipåkacitta, and this citta is not accompanied by sati. After that there may be akusala cittas with subtle clinging to hardness or heat, but one may take that for mindfulness. When one tries to concentrate on realities in order to know them there is akusala citta with clinging; there is desire to know, not mindfulness. ******* Nina. #65914 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 11:25 am Subject: a typo, Uposatha. nilovg Hi all, I had a typo, read bhikkhuni Sangamitta, instead of Samahita (who is the ven. bhikkhu). Nina. #65915 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Uposatha 2007 nilovg Hi JC, I always look at the moon and the newspaper, these are my sources. When it is full moon, Ven. Samahita sends a reminder, like last time, about Samahita, and the bringing of a sprout of the Bo-tree to Sri Lanka. . Nina. Op 6-dec-2006, om 12:36 heeft jcmendoza1000 het volgende geschreven: > Does anyone know the calendar for Uposatha 2007? #65916 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 12:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] An Argument Pertaining to "External Rupas" and "Internal Rupas" upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - Hi Howard,know many others responded to your post to me on water and so on, so I'll just keep this pretty brief: .... > P.S. The more I think about it, the less persuaded I am that the "water > element" is anything other than concept. Cohesion, for example, does not > appear to > be an elementary feature of experience, but a concept based upon a > multitude > of experiences. ... S: Yes, now it is only experienced by thinking. However, there has to be the reality of 'cohesion', of apo dhatu in order for the other rupas to arise together in a kalapa. Whilst we can say this is just theoretical, or just quoting the texts, I don't think it's wise to just reject the possibility that these dhammas exist, just because we haven't directly proved them. ----------------------------- Howard: Yes, you're right. I agree. At this point, I have my doubts, but I will not outright rejsect, for I lack the basis to. ------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ======= =============================== With metta, Howard #65917 From: "Gunasaro" Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 8:18 am Subject: Abdhidhamma in Jakarta [Re: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s)] gunasaro.fang@... Dear Nina & Sarah: Thanking so much for Your warm & sincere welcoming. Actually this is my second time subscribe in the mailing list group. The first time was ± ½ a year ago, but then I decided to unsubscribe. Besides that I was too busy with my new job; I was also unable to follow the discussion, as I was a true newcomer then. Please kindly be reminded, I'm living in Jakarta [Fabian as well] ~ and since end Feb 2006, me & friends [non-Buddhist as well] jointed The Abhidhamma Discussion Class in Bogor [± 1¼ hours way from Jakarta]. The tutor is Nanapalo, also the one who introduced me into this forum. I'm truly glad to have the opportunity to join his class; which has been running for ± 9 years ~ but I just knew it early this very year... All of us earned so many useful knowledge to be implemented into our daily actual life... All of this time, I used to get confused with the suggestion of 'practicing Dhamma in daily life'; charity/dana, 5 precepts [avoiding few things], & sometimes meditate. Then what about the remain moments, most of my time? Now, I'm so clear about the suggestion ~ thanking so much to my mentor, Nanapalo, for being so patient, kind, & sincere of reminding us to keep it on to the right track ~ guiding us to gain the happiness, piece by piece, moment to moment... Now, I'm so gleeful to inform that Nanapalo already extended the Abhidhamma Discussion Class into 2 new places in Jakarta [Gunung Sahari & Vihara Pluit Dharma Sukha]. Bogor carries out 4 times discussions in a month [weekly] & Jakarta carries out 2 times within a month [every Saturday]. I do appreciate indeed for Nanapalo's effort ~ as he guides 3 classes within a day [twice a month]. In Gunung Sahari, the attendants ± 35 & had been running since end April 2006. In VPDS, the attendants ± 80-90 and it's getting more ~ here, the organizer of the vihara asked for extension of time, from 120 minutes into 180 minutes [3 hours per session]. Now we're trying to introduce Abhidhamma to friends in some other remote places. Almost 99% of them misunderstood about Abhidhamma: hard to be understood, for a specific follower only, not at the "class" yet, etc. But after long approaching ~ now, they are expecting for a team to visit their town to introduce Abhidhamma [such a 2-3 days of seminar]... I merely want to share this happiness, Nanapalo always mentioned that this forum gave him a lot of contributions. So, I think it's also a great thing for all of You to realize that we're here pleased by Your kind contributions... Many of my friends, including me, solved many little things in our daily life ~ mostly little things that we couldn't comprehend for almost all the time. Thanks so much for the attention & hopefully we can get more precious contribution from this forum. Respectfully Yours, Gunasaro * * * * * * * Dear Gunasaro, Welcome to dsg. Wonderful to meet you. Are you still going to the Vihara, do you still live in Jakarta? I meant to ask Fabian too. If you have remarks or questions on Abhidhamma, do ask. Looking forward to hearing from you, Nina. #65918 From: "Rick Harrison" Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Uposatha 2007 raiu_harrison > I always look at the moon and the newspaper, these are my sources. If your employer requires you to plan your days off far in advance, you need a calendar or something along those lines. #65919 From: "m_nease" Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 5:53 pm Subject: Re: Uposatha 2007 m_nease Hi Guys, Here's a link from my old gang: http://ical.mac.com/WebObjects/iCal.woa/wa/default?u=lono123&n=buddhist_uposatha\ _days_2006_07.ics --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Harrison" wrote: > > > > I always look at the moon and the newspaper, these are my sources. > > If your employer requires you to plan your days off far in advance, > you need a calendar or something along those lines. > #65920 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 7:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks for the reply: J: "...Yes, both sides supported (although your last quote is perhaps on a slightly different point). So was the Buddha for or against? The answer of course (as you know) is neither; there's no right or wrong, better or worse, more desirable or less desirable. The situation is just like the monk vs. layperson thing. But since we're probably in agreement on this, we perhaps don't need to take it any further ;-))" Yeah, the sub-issue (or the whole issue) might be the efficacy of 'resolving' something. Maybe we can look into this... Sincerely, Scott. #65921 From: han tun Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Uposatha 2007 hantun1 Dear Mike, Thank you very much. To get the whole picture at a glance, I extracted the following information from your link. January 2007 Wednesday, January 3, 12:00am Full Moon Thursday, January 11, 11:00am Waning Moon Thursday, January 18, 11:00am New Moon Friday, January 26, 11:00am Waxing Moon February 2007 Friday, February 2, 11:00am Full Moon Saturday, February 10, 11:00am Waning Moon Friday, February 16, 11:00am New Moon Saturday, February 24, 11:00am Waxing Moon March 2007 Saturday, March 3, 11:00am Magha Puja Full Moon Sunday, March 11, 11:00am Waning Moon Sunday, March 18, 11:00am New Moon Monday, March 26, 11:00am Waxing Moon April 2007 Monday, April 2, 11:00am Full Moon Tuesday, April 10, 11:00am Waning Moon Monday, April 16, 11:00am New Moon Tuesday, April 24, 11:00am Waxing Moon May 2007 Tuesday, May 1, 11:00am Full Moon Wednesday, May 9, 11:00am Waning Moon Wednesday, May 16, 11:00am New Moon Thursday, May 24, 11:00am Waxing Moon Thursday, May 31, 11:00am Vesak Puja Full Moon June 2007 Friday, June 8, 11:00am Waning Moon Thursday, June 14, 11:00am New Moon Friday, June 22, 11:00am Waxing Moon Friday, June 29, 11:00am Full Moon July 2007 Saturday, July 7, 11:00am Waning Moon Saturday, July 14, 11:00am New Moon Sunday, July 22, 11:00am Waxing Moon Sunday, July 29, 11:00am Asalha Puja Full Moon Monday, July 30, 11:00am Enter Vassa [rains] August 2007 Monday, August 6, 11:00am Waning Moon Monday, August 13, 11:00am New Moon Tuesday, August 21, 11:00am Waxing Moon Tuesday, August 28, 11:00am Full Moon September 2007 Wednesday, September 5, 11:00am Waning Moon Tuesday, September 11, 11:00am New Moon Wednesday, September 19, 11:00am Waxing Moon Wednesday, September 26, 11:00am Full Moon October 2007 Thursday, October 4, 11:00am Waning Moon Thursday, October 11, 11:00am New Moon Friday, October 19, 11:00am Waxing Moon Friday, October 26, 11:00am Pavarana Day Full Moon [end rains] November 2007 Saturday, November 3, 11:00am Waning Moon Friday, November 9, 11:00am New Moon Saturday, November 17, 11:00am Waxing Moon Saturday, November 24, 11:00am Anapanasati Day Full Moon December 2007 Sunday, December 2, 11:00am Waning Moon Sunday, December 9, 11:00am New Moon Monday, December 17, 11:00am Waxing Moon Monday, December 24, 11:00am Full Moon With metta and respect, Han --- m_nease wrote: > Hi Guys, > Here's a link from my old gang: > http://ical.mac.com/WebObjects/iCal.woa/wa/default?u=lono123&n=buddhist_uposatha\ _days_2006_07.ics > #65922 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 8:41 pm Subject: Leaping Faith...!!! bhikkhu5 Friends: Clearing, Crossing, and Leaping Faith! Faith is like a Water-Clearing Jewel: Faith is like the Water-Clearing Gem that clears & calms water that is stirred & muddy, making it fit for drinking... Faith as Motivation: Faith is like the inspiration a crowd get by seeing a strong man leap over a swollen river, they thereby get to cross... By Faith is the Flood Crossed... Sn 184 Faith is both clearing the mind and spurring it on: Faith first makes the mind ready by calm clearing composure. This then induces a desire to act, with purpose & intention. Enthusiasm, energy, strength, and persistence soon follow. Manifested are decision, determination, & solid commitment! The soil in which faith grows is the 4 ways to Stream-Entry: 1: Association with Good People. (sappurisa-samseva) 2: Hearing the True Dhamma. (saddhamma savana) 3: Rational Attention. (yoniso manasikara) 4: Training Dhamma in praxis. (dhammaanudhamma-patipatti) Arahat Nagasena once explained to King Milinda: Faith, your majesty, evaporates the mental hindrances, when it emerges. Any mind without the mental hindrances is clear, composed, & unagitated! It is exactly so, your majesty that faith has the characteristic of calm tranquilized composure. When the learner sees that the minds of others are all freed, then he leaps forward after the fruit of stream-attainment, after the fruit of once-return, the fruit of never-return & after the fruit of arahat-ship! He makes an effort for the attaining of the yet unattained, for the mastering of the yet unmastered, and for the realization of the yet unrealized...!!! Exactly so, your majesty, has faith also the characteristic of leaping forward... Milindipanha 34-35. Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #65923 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 6, 2006 11:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abdhidhamma in Jakarta nilovg Apa Kabar, Gunasaro! I appreciate very much all your activities. I remember that Nanapalo already extended the Abhidhamma Discussion Class into 2 new places in Jakarta. A friend told friends and so people became interested and in this way there were conditions for more classes. You wrote: It would interest all of us what these matters were. Examples from daily life are so useful for all of us. You write: , it is also useful if you wrire your own feelings about this, it can help others. And what you write here is also an important point: We could discuss, what is the practice of Dhamma? Perhaps you can send me off line your and Fabian's postal address, so that I can arrange for the "Survey" , the book Sarah mentioned, to be sent to you. With appreciation for your wanting to share all the Dhamma activities going on in Indonesia, Nina. Op 6-dec-2006, om 17:18 heeft Gunasaro het volgende geschreven: > Please kindly be reminded, I'm living in Jakarta [Fabian as well] ~ > and since end Feb 2006, me & friends [non-Buddhist as well] jointed > The Abhidhamma Discussion Class in Bogor #65924 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 12:16 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 602- The Stages of Insight(x) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd Attachment, aversion and ignorance are realities, they arise. They can be object of mindfulness so that understanding can investigate them and see them as they are, as not self. If we avoid being mindful of akusala, it cannot be seen as it is and then it cannot be eradicated. At this moment enlightenment seems far off, but we should not forget that understanding begins by listening, memorizing and considering what one has heard. Considering the nåma and rúpa which appear can condition mindfulness so that there can gradually be direct understanding of realities. Understanding which arises now is conditioned by many moments of studying and considering in the past. It arises and then falls away, but it is never lost since the conditions are accumulated for the arising again of understanding and thus it can grow. Understanding which is lokuttara is completely different from past moments of “mundane” understanding, yet it is conditioned by past moments of insight and also by other good qualities, such as generosity, patience and perseverance, which have been developed together with understanding. Such good qualities should not be neglected, they can be helpful conditions leading to detachment. Understanding develops gradually in the course of many lives and therefore we should persevere in considering the Dhamma in daily life and in being mindful of realities. ***** The Stages of Insight to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65925 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] vipallaasas and sotaapanna sarahprocter... Dear Joop, You asked for my comments on this post of yours. I thought it was primarily addressed to Han had that he had already given a nice response, but let's see if there's anything else for me to add- --- Joop wrote: <...> > With me the question is: > IS IT POSSIBLE TO GET A SOTAPANNA ? AND HOW? > > I think in theory this is possible, although in this time 2500 years > affter the passing away of the Buddha, 'degeneration of time' is to > me an Indian and not a Buddhistic idea. > The next question is: is this only 'theory', is this extremely > difficult so nearly impossible? > I think the answer is: no, not that difficult. > What do you think? .... S: I think that even to directly understand namas and rupas now and their distinction is difficult. Everything about the development of the Path is difficult because it completely goes against our usual Path. Knowing about the various dhammas and the ti-lakkhana in theory is very easy. Directly being aware and understanding the arising and falling away of namas and rupas is not simple at all. As soon as there is any trying to do so, we go wrong again. ... > > The how is described in the Suttas > I wrote this week: > > According Thanissaro Bhikkhu the experience of stream-entry is > called 'the arising of the Dhamma-eye' > (www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream1.html and > www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html) > > Then Ven. Assaji gave this Dhamma exposition to Sariputta the > wanderer: > "Whatever phenomena arise from a cause: > Their cause > & their cessation. > Such is the teaching of the Tathagata, > the Great Contemplative." > Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this exposition of > Dhamma, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is > subject to origination is all subject to cessation." ... S: Yes, this was enough for Sariputta's accumulations to directly understand the impermanence of dhammas and to realize nibbana. We read in the Jatakas and other texts about the countless lives he accompanied the bodhisatta and listened to many earlier Buddhas too, making his great aspiration to be the Buddha's chief disciple in his final life. I probably didn't bother to repeat this as I know from your discussions with Jon and others that you don't accept these kinds of details and think that all necessary wisdom can be developed in just this life time. I have no problem with your thinking like this, Joop. We just differ in how we read the texts. .... > > Also in the Suttas more quiet path is given: > The practices leading to stream entry are encapsulated in four > factors: > " Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. > Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. > Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. > Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream- > entry." > SN 55.5 .... S: Yes, these are the essential conditions. We need to associate with the Dhamma, listen, consider a lot and develop right understanding accordingly. We can just find out for ourselves how much or little is directly known at this moment about present dhammas. .... > > Another (more 'technical') description of the path is given with > the 'fetter' method: > For the sotapanna, the arising of the Dhamma eye — with its insight > into the causal principles underlying the origination and cessation > of stress — is what cuts through the first three fetters. > " He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination > of stress... > This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the > cessation of stress. > As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are > abandoned in him: self-identity > view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices." > MN 2 > > I think the information Sarah gave, is in fact the same as in this > Suttas. > Only one difference: > - In the quotes of Sarah the path is given in negative terms > (persversions, eradicated etc) .... S: I know that many of the Pali terms and translation of them sounds negative, but as others have said, it's not at all. For example, adosa if translated as non-aversion sounds negative. But actually, when we realise it refers to friendliness or metta, for example, we see that it's a very 'positive' term. The same applies to the eradication of the perversions. Nothing negative about this. .... > - In the Sutta-quotes the path is given in positive terms. > (And I prefer the positive on; fot the same reason I prefer to > contemplate on the term 'metta' more than on 'adosa'; I think the > positive one 'works' better') ... S: Oh, I see you've just given the same example. I agree. I think it's just a misunderstanding of the Pali. Pls let me know if this isn't adequate and if there's more to discuss. Just remind me anytime you're expecting a response, Joop. If there aren't any question marks, sometimes I think you're just sharing your reflections. Thanks again for prompting me. Metta, Sarah ========= #65926 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 2:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma ken_aitch Hi Sarah, Thanks for elaborating on this point. ----------- S: One characteristic of the dhamma at a time. This is why prior to sotapattimagga, it's the anicca, dukkha OR anatta characteristic of a dhamma which appears. (Of course, all 3 characteristics have appeared over and over again by this stage, but according to accumulations one 'manifests' at such a time. Like when we look at a glass of juice, the juice or the empty part of the glass might be noticed. ----------- So when visible object has arisen, and a monk directly knows its anatta characteristic, do we say the arammana is anatta or do we say it is visible object? Does the monk at that moment just know anatta or does he know "visible object has the characteristic, anatta?" Ken H #65927 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 3:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking jonoabb Hi Scott, Nina and all Just in case you didn't know or had forgotten, the discussion 'Bodh Gaya (on departure)' in the India October 2005 series is also about nimitta. Jon Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Nina, All, > > I found the session on nimitta; February 2, 2006, a. > > Here are some quotes; very important and interesting: > > "In reality when there is the realisation that there is nothing > permanent, what appears now is only nimitta." ... > > #65928 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 4:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks for the reminder: J: "Just in case you didn't know or had forgotten, the discussion 'Bodh Gaya (on departure)' in the India October 2005 series is also about nimitta." S. #65929 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Matt Thanks for the further response. matt roke wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Jon wrote: > >> By the way, I suppose 'inflicting harm' would include any kind of touching >> done in anger, such as restraining (someone who was bent on harming us/ones >> dear to us), and not just to a touching that causes pain. Is this how you >> would see it too? >> > > If a sotapanna were to restrain someone I don’t believe they would do it out > of anger directed at the individual or from fear, but there may be some > other accumulations that makes them do it. > OK, so as you see it a sotapanna is incapable of restraining someone, with dosa, from harming another. Thanks for clarifying that (I do think it necessarily follows from your earlier statements). Just to pursue this line of thinking a little further, I think you would also say a sotapanna could not have dosa with another being as object. Would that be correct? > >From my studies I can conceptionally appreciate that dhammas are impermanent > and that sotapannas, when they have insight into dhamma moments, understand > that there is no *me and mine* and so they cannot kill or have the intention > to hurt someone. > I notice you say here 'when they have insight into dhamma moments'. As we know, the javana citta of the sotapannas' is not necessarily with insight. What is the significance of the qualification about 'when they have insight'? Another thing we read about the sotapanna is that, in addition to not acting in breach of the precepts, he/she is also incapable of doing any act that could result in rebirth in a lower realm. Do you see this also as being attributable to the eradication of wrong view of self rather than, for example, the eradication of gross forms of lobha and dosa? Just trying to understand your reasoning about 'no wrong view of self therefore no intention to kill or harm'. Jon #65930 From: "nanapalo" Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 4:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abdhidhamma in Jakarta [Re: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s)] nana_palo@... dear Gunasaro, anumodana you keep your effort to learn and Apply Abhidhamma in daily life. Greatly appreciate. In this forum, we have many expert in Abhidhamma. Nina, Sarah, and all. lets share your feeling, and contribute discussion with us... metta, selamat #65931 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 7:42 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Jakarta nilovg Dear Selamat, Gunasaro, Fabian, and other friends. I am revising Kh Sujin's perfections (paaramii or paramita) and going over the perfection of truthfulness (sacca), I came across a passage that reminded me of Gunasaro's remark, what is the practice of Dhamma: < People say that they want to practise the Dhamma. The practice of the Dhamma is the abandoning of akusala: of lobha, dosa and moha. Lobha should be abandoned when it arises, that is the practice of the Dhamma. If someone wants to apply the Dhamma he should not delay this. When anger arises, one should abandon it so that there is non-hate, that is the practice of the Dhamma. When jealousy, stinginess or other kinds of akusala arise one should abandon them, that is the practice of the Dhamma. However, defilements cannot be eradicated according to our wishes or expectations. Even the Bodhisatta who had accumulated the perfections during innumerable lives was still susceptible to the power of akusala, because he had not yet eradicated defilements. We should reflect on the Bodhisatta who accumulated the perfections in order to realize the noble Truths. He wanted to understand the truth of the four paramattha dhammas, of citta, cetasika, rúpa and nibbåna. We should develop paññå in order to realize the truth of Dhamma, we should see the benefit of sacca, of the truth. The paramattha dhammas which are the true dhammas have inalterable characteristics. We should find out what the true characteristic is of citta, cetasika, and rúpa, which are not self, not a being or person.> When we notice: it can remind us that there is no self or person who can control dhammas. As we read: we should develop understanding of paramattha dhammas. The Abhidhamma helps us to understand citta, cetasika and rupa. At first we may wonder whether all these classifications are of any use. As we study and consider we can find out that these are most helpful to understand what akusala is, what kusala is, and what the condiitons are for their arising. We come to understand why it is that we cannot abandon defilements according to our wish, only by developing more understanding of realities. Nina. #65932 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 9:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Uposatha 2007 m_nease Hi Han, What a good idea--thanks for the effort. mike #65933 From: "Gunasaro" Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 9:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abdhidhamma in Jakarta gunasaro.fang@... Saya lebih bahagia, Bu Nina... Proper conditioning; it's what we need here to get more people, at least by letting themselves to know about Abhidhamma. It's also a fact here, only few persons who really care to share the happiness in Dhamma for others. But it's getting better now, by spreading positive influences. "Little things in daily life"... I used to heard a phrase "think before talking"... Well I guess, I just started for a real "think before talking" for the past few months. I mean really 'thinking of how to response, how to control the feeling & emotion. Even it's only happening few times in a day, or even once within few days. But it seems like never happens this way before; a true new experience. I heard the phrase since I was very young, I thought I was good with it; but it wasn't so... For instance: I consider myself as a very impatient person when listening to others. Became even more if the opponent were pig-headed or to slow in understanding my explanation. Later on, I could "pretend" to perform being patient ~ merely to show off [from my present understanding] to people surround me. But now, I may humbly say that I become a little bit patient, sincerely; even not for all the time. But I'm feeling fine with it ~ it motivate me even more to keep it that way. I used to ask Nanapalo before: "How it becomes like that? In such circumstances ~ I reacted a certain way which I never had before?" In the discussion, Nanapalo always patiently repeated many simple examples which are related closely to our daily activities. And, whenever I faced an event which was exactly the same as being exampled ~ then at least I could control my response & feeling at the very time. As You must know it well, Jakarta & Bangkok have one thing in common: traffic "very" jam. Blowing horn & yelling people would be a routine for me ~ more over, I brought the anger all along the road & when met other, I shared it... Those are which related to the examples ~ later on, I was conditioned to pay more attention on other cases [works & home]. Even it's still little by little; but I was convinced that, this is the right way. Coz I'm getting happier & my burdens are felt lighter then before. Somehow, I find myself easier to empathise than before ~ the 'quality'/feeling is different. Frankly to say, I cannot observe to the detail "how" ~ I just noticed the final result. Now, we're discussing cetasikas in one of Jakarta's classes ~ seems like I'm getting some clues... "Misunderstanding of Abhidhamma"... It started when I decided to learn Basic Buddhism Course in Bogor [Dhamma Study Group Bogor] with a friend of mine, a Roman Catholic disciple. Who once was a pastor wanna be. Then I contacted Nanapalo for further information; funny thing, I was asking for the Basic Buddhism Course ~ but he was explaining about Abhidhamma Discussion Class. Finally I found out, it's Abhidhamma that he's talking about. But even I heard many "horror things" regarding with Abhidhamma ~ but the way Nanapalo expressed it, seemed quite "friendly" to me. I used to hear that Abhidhamma: 1.. Very technical... 2.. Very complex... 3.. Very complicated... 4.. Need high intensively attended... 5.. Mostly uses Pali words... 6.. Only fit for monks & nuns... 7.. Need a certain level of Dhamma knowledge... First day, I went to Bogor with a couple of doctors [the husband is schooling for psychiatrist]. First impression was amazing, he said that he'd follow the discussion all the way. Later one, both of them sharing the benefit of learning & practicing Abhidhamma. Their parents, family, & friends also joint the discussion. Now, I also meet Dhamma-fellows who used to learn Abhidhamma ~ but unable to gain the essence benefits. Some even sounded very antipathy... For me, the practices have taken me into same stages: 1.. Better understanding to Dhamma ~ many misinterpretation before being corrected; sometimes only with a little switching of words, different way of explanation, examples, and of course: detail explanations. 2.. Recognising the reality, an ability to accept suffering with honesty [but just started from little steps]. 3.. At the same time, realising more happiness which are surrounding me [the ability to accept]. 4.. Challenging to develop the "skill" ~ coz I'm still fragile, used to loose control... Hé³... 5.. So happy indeed to have the opportunity to learn & practice Abhidhamma. Then I found out, whenever one joint the discussion & also gain the benefit from it, I also feel the happiness. This time, the feeling also "taste" different from my previous mudita... Unique... "Confuse in Practicing Dhamma"... I was taught to practice Dhamma in a common terminology, most of us here, I guess... It has nothing wrong with the suggestion to practice the Pancasila, dana, & bhavana [occasionally]. I think the main issue is in the guidelines ~ the core/essence way to practice. Sometimes it crossed over my mind: "What more am I supposed to do then? Is this it? Suppose to be more than only this, huh?" I spent more time in arguing religions comparison, rather than doing something more useful. It came to a moment where I found myself get boring & empty ~ have no directions. But it was tentative, few only... lucky, hé³... Now I'm getting to a wider understanding, that, this is not as simple as I used to think. That I suppose to deal with the practice in every single moment in my daily life. Not easy, I admit it. But this is very challenging & it has noble benefits... For me & others around me... And I realise it very well, it's still a long way to go; I just learn a little part & need more³ than before... I'll be very pleased to have further guidance from everyone here. Please kindly endure with my ignorance, as I'm just a absolute beginner pupil. Anumodana for Your kindness Bu Nina, I'll send my address. I'm glad to be able to contribute the survey... Sukhi Hotu, Gunasaro * * * * * * * #65934 From: "Gunasaro" Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 9:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abdhidhamma in Jakarta [Re: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s)] gunasaro.fang@... Dear Sir: I'm surely will... It's also my deepest appreciation for Your kind, patient, & wise support/guidance thru all these times... Please never ever hesitate to warn, remind, & criticize me, if any negative issues found... Anumodana... Sukhi Hotu, Gunasaro * * * * * * * #65935 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 11:09 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 144. nilovg Dear friends, People's deeds are not the same and thus the results cannot be the same. People are born with different pa.tisandhi-cittas (rebirth- consciousness). pa.tisandhi-cittas are vipåkacittas; they are the result of kamma. As we have seen before (in chapter 11), human beings can be born with a pa.tisandhi-citta which is ahetuka kusala vipåka (and in this case they are handicapped from the first moment of life), or with a pa.tisandhi-citta which is sahetuka vipåka, accompanied by sobhana hetus. In the case of human beings, and of beings born in other sensuous planes of existence, the pa.tisandhi- citta which is sahetuka vipåkacitta is mahå-vipåkacitta, the result of kåmåvacara kusala kamma (kamma performed by mahå-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness). Apart from mahå-vipåkacitta there are other types of sahetuka vipåkacitta which are not the result of kåmåvacara kusala kamma but of kusala kamma of higher planes of consciousness. These types will be dealt with later on. There are eight types of mahå-vipåkacittas. They can be accompanied by somanassa or by upekkhå, they can be with paññå or without paññå, they can be unprompted, asa"nkhaarika, or prompted, sasa"nkhaarika. They are classified in the same way as the eight types of mahå-kusala cittas mentioned above. The bhavanga-citta (life-continuum) and the cuti-citta (dying- consciousness) are the same type of citta as the first citta in one's life, the pa.tisandhi-citta. If the pa.tisandhi-citta is mahå- vipåkacitta, the bhavanga-citta and the cuti-citta of that life are the same type of mahå-vipåkacitta. In that case the functions of pa.tisandhi, bhavanga and cuti are performed by mahå-vipåkacitta. When we see a beautiful visible object or experience pleasant objects through the other sense-doors, the citta is kusala vipåkacitta, the result of kusala kamma; however, that kind of vipåkacitta is ahetuka vipåka (arising without hetu), it is not mahå-vipåka. The functions of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and experiencing tangible object through the bodysense, and also the functions of sampaìicchana, receiving, and santíraùa, investigating, cannot be performed by mahå-vipåkacittas, they are performed by ahetuka vipåkacittas. Tadårammaùa-citta, a vipåka-citta which may arise after the javana-cittas and which performs the function of tadårammaùa, registering or retention, can be ahetuka vipåkacitta or mahå- vipåkacitta. ***** Nina. #65936 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 11:23 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, II, 7. nilovg Dear friends, It does not matter if mindfulness does not arise yet. It is conditioned by listening to the Dhamma, reading and considering, thus, by right understanding. Our goal should not be: having sati for its own sake. Sati without the development of understanding of the nåma and rúpa which appear will not lead to the eradication of the idea of "self". The following sutta can remind us that there should be the development of understanding of rúpa as rúpa and of nåma as nåma, as elements devoid of self. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (II, Nidåna-vagga, Ch XIV, Kindred Sayings on Elements, § 1) that the Buddha, while he was at Såvatthí , said to the monks: What, monks, is the diversity in elements? The elements of eye, of visible object, of seeing-consciousness; the elements of ear, of sound, of hearing-consciousness; the elements of nose, of odour, of smelling-consciousness; the elements of tongue, of taste, of tasting- consciousness; the elements of body-sense, of tangibles, of body- consciousness; the elements of mind, of dhammas, of mind- consciousness. This, monks, is called diversity in elements. We should reflect more on this sutta. Seeing can only arise when there are visible object and eyesense, thus, it can only arise when there are the appropriate conditions. The nåma-elements and rúpa- elements of our life arise because of conditions, they are not self, they are beyond control. When heat appears, understanding of its characteristic can be developed for that short moment, so that it can be known as a rúpa element. It is rúpa, not part of "my body", not self. It does not know anything, it is different from nåma. When feeling appears, understanding can be developed of its characteristic as a nåma element. It is nåma, an element which experiences something, different from rúpa. There is no self who experiences. When understanding is developed at the moment of mindfulness, there will be less doubt as to whether there was sati or not. Sati can arise naturally in daily life, while seeing, hearing or experiencing objects through the other doorways. Doubt about mindfulness is bound to arise, but then we can be mindful of doubt as a kind of nåma which is conditioned. Khun Sujin reminds us: "Begin again, be aware again." Sati can follow all kinds of realities appearing through the six doors. We should not try to hold on to any reality, then we are forgetful of what appears at the present moment. We should not try to select any object in order to be mindful of it. Since sati and paññå are anattå there cannot be any rule that there should first be mindfulness of rúpas of the body, then of feelings, then of cittas and then of other dhammas. ***** Nina. #65937 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 11:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abdhidhamma in Jakarta nilovg Dear Gunasaro, thank you very much for your post with all the examples from daily life. Later on I may add something, and I hope Sarah and others will add too. Nina. Op 7-dec-2006, om 18:34 heeft Gunasaro het volgende geschreven: > Little things in daily life"... > I used to heard a phrase "think before talking"... Well I guess, I > just started for a real "think before talking" for the past few > months. #65938 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 12:08 pm Subject: Re: vipallaasas and sotaapanna jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Joop, > ... Dear Sarah, all S: "You asked for my comments on this post of yours. I thought it was primarily addressed to Han had that he had already given a nice response." J: Two misunderstandings. First my messages are primary adressed to a topic and not to a person. And second: I prefer information or opinions; 'nice responses' do not help (my) dhamma-study. But thanks for you respons. S: "…Everything about the development of the Path is difficult because it completely goes against our usual Path." J: I'm not only so modest (as Han) but also not so pessimistic (as you). Do I have a 'usual path"? I doubt. You are right that there is no use in repeating the recent discussion (with Jon) about what is possible in one lifetime. Only S: " We read in the Jatakas and other texts about the countless lives he [Sariputta] accompanied the bodhisatta …" That 'other texts' are commentaries. Linguistic discussions are not important; but perhaps that it's not only my misunderstanding Pali that I prefer 'metta' above 'adosa', perhaps it's also the optimism-pessimism dimension. So I have another set of questions that was implicit in my message to you: Why so many times is there a discussion in DSG about the question how it is to be a sotapanna (in my words: a starting awakened) ???? Don't you think we should not worry or even think about that future and better spend our time on the question: how to get a sotapanna ??? Metta Joop #65939 From: JC Mendoza Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 7:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Uposatha 2007 jcmendoza1000 What's the time beside the date for? han tun wrote: Dear Mike, Thank you very much. To get the whole picture at a glance, I extracted the following information from your link. January 2007 Wednesday, January 3, 12:00am Full Moon Thursday, January 11, 11:00am Waning Moon Thursday, January 18, 11:00am New Moon Friday, January 26, 11:00am Waxing Moon ... #65940 From: han tun Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 2:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Uposatha 2007 hantun1 Dear JC and Mike, It is also the first time for me to come across such a list with the time. I think the time indicates the exact time of the day when the moon is full or when it starts to wane or wax or when the new moon starts. But I do not know exactly. Perhaps, Mike might know something about it. Han --- JC Mendoza wrote: > What's the time beside the date for? > #65941 From: "m_nease" Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 2:57 pm Subject: Re: Uposatha 2007 m_nease Hi Han and JC, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear JC and Mike, > > It is also the first time for me to come across such a > list with the time. > I think the time indicates the exact time of the day > when the moon is full or when it starts to wane or wax > or when the new moon starts. > But I do not know exactly. > Perhaps, Mike might know something about it. I suspect Han is right about this, but without knowing the time zone referred to in the calendar we wouldn't know how these times relate to us. In temples I believe the various observances simply are performed on the day (and night) in the conventional sense without too much worry about precise times. However there is some VERY complex date figuring in the Vinaya texts, so I could be mistaken. mike #65942 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 7:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Uposatha 2007 jonoabb HI Mike, Han and JC --- m_nease wrote: > Hi Han and JC, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > > > Dear JC and Mike, > > > > It is also the first time for me to come across such a > > list with the time. > > I think the time indicates the exact time of the day > > when the moon is full or when it starts to wane or wax > > or when the new moon starts. > > But I do not know exactly. > > Perhaps, Mike might know something about it. > > I suspect Han is right about this, but without knowing the time zone > referred to in the calendar we wouldn't know how these times relate to > us. In temples I believe the various observances simply are performed > on the day (and night) in the conventional sense without too much > worry about precise times. However there is some VERY complex date > figuring in the Vinaya texts, so I could be mistaken. > > mike Or it could just be that they had to specify a time in order to make the entry in the calender, and they chose 11.00 am (with one or two exceptions). In which case, no significance. Jon #65943 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 9:30 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 603- The Stages of Insight(y) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== The Stages of Insight contd Questions i Why can the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa not be realized before the difference between nåma and rúpa has been clearly seen? ii Through which doorway can insight knowledge realize seeing as it is? iii Can there be clinging when we perceive a teacup? iv When is there thinking with akusala citta? v What is the object of understanding all through the development of the different stages of insight? vi Can aversion be the object of insight in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained? ***** The Stages of Insight finished! Metta, Sarah ====== #65944 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 9:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka sarahprocter... Dear Antony (Christine & all), Your comments and reflections on gratitude and kamma-vipaka are very interesting indeed. I wasn't familiar with the word 'kata~n~nutaa' (gratitude). --- Antony Woods wrote: <...> > We see here that both kamma-vipaka and Kata~n~nutaa are based on what > has been done (actions). The confusion is: "done by whom?". .... S: I think that when we appreciate that there are only dhammas performing deeds, experiencing results and so on, there is no confusion about 'done by whom?'. By understanding a little more about kamma-vipaka, there are more conditions for upekkha (equanimity) to arise because one knows that whatever happens in life is by conditions, including previous kamma-patha. Even when we know that in reality there are no people, we can still feel gratitude to our parents who've carried and taken care of us, our dhamma friends who've helped us and so on. Right understanding of dhammas is a condition for more metta and appreciation, not less. The ariyans without any self-view have more purified brahma viharas arising than non-ariyans simply because there is no clinging to the idea of people existing as such. .... >I think > upekkha leads to one being grateful for *everything* compassionate: > grateful to not only our parents but indirectly to all beings. When > there is no opportunity to express gratitude to one's parents then > upekkha "redirects our energies to where we can make a difference" > (Thanissaro). .... S: I don't know about this. I think of upekkha as been even-mindedness or equanimity towards whatever is experienced at this moment. Wholesome gratitude to others may be more indicative of metta and mudita, often with joy, I'd have thought. Do you have any textual sources where kata~n~nutaa (gratitude) is used in context? .... > > There are about 13 entries in google for this quote: > "You have no cause for anything but gratitude and joy. > Author: The Buddha" > > Would the Buddha have made such a global statement? .... S: I don't know what it means. Do you have a textual source? I think we'd need to look at the context. Thanks, Antony. I always enjoy your reflections. A couple of times Christine has also brought up the topic of 'gratitude' when we've been in Bangkok. Can we persuade you to add more, Chris? Metta, Sarah ======= #65945 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 10:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 593- The Stages of Insight(o) sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Nina), --- han tun wrote: > Han: The way of counting that I mentioned was not > without support. > In ABHIDHAMMATTHA – SANGAHA of Anuruddhācariya > http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_9.htm .... S: Thank you for the further details. I'd like to assure you that I wasn't for a minute suggesting your comments weren't without good support and basis. All the ways of counting are valid. <...> > Han: Also in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, > translated by Mahaathera Naarada and translation > revised by Bhikkhu Bodhi, on page 346, the above > classification is mentioned. .... S: Yes, indeed and with good reasons as you gave. ... > Han: In The Essence of Buddha Abhidhamma by Dr. Mehm > Tin Mon, on page 407, it is stated as follows. > The two knowledges, i.e. naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naana > and pccaya-priggaha-~naana, are very important. They > are the basic knowledges in insight-meditations and > they constitute the foundations for the arising of ten > vipassanaa-~naanas in later stages. They are not > included in vipassanaa-~naanas because they do not > concentrate on the three characteristic marks > (tilakkhana) of existence. Nevertheless, they reveal > the insight nature of the ultimate realities > concerning naama and ruupa. End Quote. > > The reason for not including > naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naana and > pccaya-priggaha-~naana is given there. .... S: Thank you. This is interesting. I also have this book (given to us by Rob M). As you say, there's a lot of helpful detail. ... > ---------- > > Dear Sarah, I have only responded to your invitation > mentioned with each presentation: “Questions, comments > and different views welcome.” So I have expressed my > opinion. If another person has a different opinion, I > will not have any objection. .... S: As Nina's said, we're both very glad that you do this. Your comments are always helpful and you encourage me to keep posting the extracts for all of us to consider and discuss further. Metta, Sarah ========= #65946 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 10:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abdhidhamma in Jakarta [Re: Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s)] sarahprocter... Dear Gunasaro, --- Gunasaro wrote: > Actually this is my second time subscribe in the mailing list group. The > first time was ± ½ a year ago, but then I decided to unsubscribe. > Besides that I was too busy with my new job; I was also unable to follow > the discussion, as I was a true newcomer then. ... S: Yes, I remember when you joined before, but had forgotten your name, so I thought you were another member from the same Jakarta group perhaps. It's kind of you to re-introduce yourself again and to jog our memories. ... > Please kindly be reminded, I'm living in Jakarta [Fabian as well] ~ and > since end Feb 2006, me & friends [non-Buddhist as well] jointed The > Abhidhamma Discussion Class in Bogor [± 1¼ hours way from Jakarta]. The > tutor is Nanapalo, also the one who introduced me into this forum. I'm > truly glad to have the opportunity to join his class; which has been > running for ± 9 years ~ but I just knew it early this very year... .... S: The activities of the group and Nanapalo (Salamat's) instruction is very impressive. I remember even back in the 70s, he used to correspond with Nina, so I know he's had a keen study and interest in the Abhidhamma for a long time now. ... > All of us earned so many useful knowledge to be implemented into our > daily actual life... All of this time, I used to get confused with the > suggestion of 'practicing Dhamma in daily life'; charity/dana, 5 > precepts [avoiding few things], & sometimes meditate. Then what about > the remain moments, most of my time? Now, I'm so clear about the > suggestion ~ thanking so much to my mentor, Nanapalo, for being so > patient, kind, & sincere of reminding us to keep it on to the right > track ~ guiding us to gain the happiness, piece by piece, moment to > moment... .... S: S: I heard on a cd today, A.Sujin saying that when it's panna (understanding)in daily life, it's so relaxing, whereas when it's the idea of self, it's so very heavy - wanting to get something for the self, thinking of another time and place for practice and so on. Pls also elaborate on your understanding of 'practice' now. .... > Now, I'm so gleeful to inform that Nanapalo already extended the > Abhidhamma Discussion Class into 2 new places in Jakarta [Gunung Sahari > & Vihara Pluit Dharma Sukha]. Bogor carries out 4 times discussions in a > month [weekly] & Jakarta carries out 2 times within a month [every > Saturday]. I do appreciate indeed for Nanapalo's effort ~ as he guides 3 > classes within a day [twice a month]. > In Gunung Sahari, the attendants ± 35 & had been running since end April > 2006. > In VPDS, the attendants ± 80-90 and it's getting more ~ here, the > organizer of the vihara asked for extension of time, from 120 minutes > into 180 minutes [3 hours per session]. ..... S: Excellent and anumodana to Nanapalo. .... > Now we're trying to introduce Abhidhamma to friends in some other remote > places. Almost 99% of them misunderstood about Abhidhamma: hard to be > understood, for a specific follower only, not at the "class" yet, etc. > But after long approaching ~ now, they are expecting for a team to visit > their town to introduce Abhidhamma [such a 2-3 days of seminar]... .... S: Out of interest, are these mostly Indonesians brought up as Buddhists or brought up as Muslims (or Hindus)? I think the Dhamma and Abhidhamma is very hard to be understood, so I appreciate the interest that the 1% have! .... > > I merely want to share this happiness, Nanapalo always mentioned that > this forum gave him a lot of contributions. So, I think it's also a > great thing for all of You to realize that we're here pleased by Your > kind contributions... Many of my friends, including me, solved many > little things in our daily life ~ mostly little things that we couldn't > comprehend for almost all the time. .... S: This is a very kind note and the support that both active and lurkind friends give to the discussions makes it most worthwhile. Please give some example of these 'little things' if you'd care to. It may be helpful for others too. ... > Thanks so much for the attention & hopefully we can get more precious > contribution from this forum. .... SAnd this time, please stay with us and also kindly add your contributions from time to time. It's good to hear from friends in Indonesia! Metta, Sarah ===== #65947 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Water. sarahprocter... Hi Scott, Howard & all, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Swimmers, > > Would this be relevant? .... S: As one of the swimmers here I had meant to get back on this one before as well: ... > "The water element, or fluidity, is the material factor that makes > different particles of matter cohere, thereby preventing them from > being scattered about. Its characteristic is trickling or oozing, its > function is to intensify the coexisting material states, and it is > manifested as the holding together or cohesion of material phenomena. > Its proximate cause is the other three great essentials. The > Abbhidhamma holds that unlike the other three great essentials, the > water element cannot be physically sensed but must be known > inferentially from the cohesion of observed matter." CMA, p.238. .... S: This is from B.Bodhi's 'Guide' to the Ab.Sangaha, mostly based on its commentary, but the last sentence may be rather ambiguous. While it's true that (as discussed at length) the water element cannot be physically sensed as it says, I don't think it's true to say that it 'must be known inferentially' only, even though this is what happens for us without the panna to know it directly through the mind-door. First of all, it's made clear from the Ab.Sangaha V1,#3 (CMA p237)that apo dhatu (water element) is included in the 18 rupas which are nipphannaruupa (concretely produced matter), "Thus these eighteen kinds of material phenomena are grouped together as: matter possessing intrinsic nature (sabhaavaruupa'm), matter possessing real characteristics (salakkha.naruupa'm), concretely produced matter (nipphannaruupa'm), material matter, and matter to be comprehended by insight (sammasanaruupa'm ti ca sangaha'm gacchati)." The commentary, Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii transl(PTS transl) adds: "These are called materiality that has a particular nature because of their each being differentiated by their own particular natures, such as hardness, etc. That which accompanied by the characteristics of arising, etc, or of impermanence, etc, has the characteristics. "They are materiality as real products (nipphanna) because they are by their very nature, quite apart from their state of delimitation [by space]etc, what has been produced by conditions, such as kamma,etc." **** S: There is also an interesting commentary passage which emphasises for anyone left in doubt that the water element cannot be experienced through the body-sense (same text,Ch6:6,) following the Ab.Sangaha (and I expect this is what the CMA comment given at the top refers to): "(6)Visible form, sound, smell,taste, and the tangible, which is considered as the three elements excluding the water element, are called 'materiality as objective field' "[S: of the 5 senses only]. "Since the water element, being by nature subtle, is incapable of being touched, he states 'considered as the three elements excluding the water element'. For even though one apprehend cold when one touches [something], this is just fire. For when heat is feeble the perception is of cold, since there is no separate quality reckoned as cold. Heat is experienced as a perception of cold since its condition is not constant, like the two extremes [of one thing]. So, indeed, during the hot season those who move into the shade after having been in the sun have the sensation of cold, and when they remain there for a long time they have the sensation of heat. And if cold were [equivalent to] the water element, it would be found along with the condition of heat in a single cluster, but this does not happen. Therefore the water element is not perceived as cold. "However, those who argue that the water element is experienced as fluidity through [the sense of] touch should be told that the view that fluidity can be experienced through touch is merely the opinion of those elders, as in the case of shape. For this is what is said by the ancients: -'When people touch the three essential materialities that exist along with fluidity, they imagine they are touching fluidity. -'When they touch the elements and discern a shape with the mind, they think they touch [that shape] directly; so fluidity should be considered in the same way as this.' They are called 'materiality as objective field' because of their being the objects of the five sense-consciousnesses; the objective field (gocara) is the place where the cattle of the sense-faculties pasture (gaavo....caranti) and this is a term for object....." ****** S: Enough swimming in this one.... Metta, Sarah ======= #65948 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Realities, Paramattha Dhammas, and Concepts sarahprocter... Hi Larry, (TG & Howard), You also gave some very good quotes about the elements inc. water element. As TG and others were pointing out, even if dhammas are not known, it doesn't mean they don't exist and there are many, many references to apo dhatu (water element) as being one of the 4 great elements: --- LBIDD@... wrote: > L: <...>The Visuddhimagga tackles this problem by means > of the resolution of the compact which destroys the assumption of a > whole. It cites this passage in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta as example: > > Vism.XI,28: "It is given in brief in the Mahasatipatthana Sutta, for one > of quick understanding whose meditation subject is elements, as follows: > 'Bhikkhus, just as though a skilled butcher or butcher's apprentice had > killed a cow and were seated at the cross-roads with it cut up into > pieces, so too, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu reviews this body however placed, > however disposed, as consisting of elements: In this body there are the > earth element, the water element, the fire element, and the air element' > (D.ii,294).20 <...> > Note 20. 'Herein, as regards 'earth element', etc., the meaning of > element is the meaning of individual essence, the meaning of individual > essence is the meaning of voidness, the meaning of voidness is the > meaning of not-a-living-being. So it is just earth in the sense of > individual essence, voidness and not-a-living-being that is the element; > hence it is earth element. So too in the case of the water element, and > the rest. The earth element is the element that is the foothold for the > conascent material states. Likewise the water element is the element of > their cohesion; the fire element is the element of their ripening; and > the air element is the element of their conveyance and distension' (Pm. > 345). > > "To avoid confusion, it might be mentioned here that in 'physical' > earth, fire, water, and air, it would be held that all four elements are > present in each equally, but that in 'physical' earth the earth element > is dominant in efficacy as the mode of hardness; and correspondingly > with water and the rest." > > L: This comes up again as an insight knowledge: contemplation of > destruction. What is destroyed is the sense of a compact whole. .... S: Yes, when there is the clear comprehension of dhammas as elements and of the arising and falling away of these dhammas, it'll be clear that there is no 'compact whole', no 'person', no 'thing as such' - merely dhammas that cease as soon as they arise, never to return. Thanks again for all your helpful quotes from the Vism. and notes. Metta, Sarah ======= #65949 From: han tun Date: Thu Dec 7, 2006 11:45 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 603- The Stages of Insight (y) hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, Questions: Question (i) Why can the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa not be realized before the difference between nåma and rúpa has been clearly seen? Answer: The first stage of insight, which is only a beginning stage, is the understanding of the difference between the characteristic of naama and the characteristic of ruupa, not merely in theory but through direct understanding of them when they appear. The first stage of insight is called Defining of naama and ruupa, or "Delimitation of Formations" (in Pali: naama-ruupa-pariccheda-nana). Without this first stage of insight, the following stages of insight, including the knowledge of arising and falling away of naama and ruupa (udayabbaya nana) cannot be realized. Thus, the impermanence of, for example, seeing cannot be realized if there is no clear understanding first of the characteristic of seeing as naama, different from ruupa. We know in theory that seeing does not stay, that it must have fallen away when there is thinking of a concept, but this does not mean that the arising and falling away of seeing at this moment is directly known. Seeing and visible object may still seem to appear together, and then there is no mindfulness of one reality at a time but only thinking about seeing and visible object. Therefore, the direct understanding of the difference between the characteristic of naama and the characteristic of ruupa is necessary, so that the knowledge of arising and falling away of naam and ruupa can be realized. ------------------------------ Question (ii) Through which doorway can insight knowledge realize seeing as it is? Answer: First, through the eye-door process when only colours are seen; but the insight knowledge that realizes seeing as it is can happen only through the mind-door process, which we call it secondary mano-dvara viithi. ------------------------------ Question (iii) Can there be clinging when we perceive a teacup? Answer: Yes, we can cling to thinking of concept after seeing the teacup, if we pay attention to the beautiful shape and form of the teacup. ------------------------------ Question (iv) When is there thinking with akusala citta? Answer: Thinking with akusala citta usually occurs when there is just thinking of concepts, without the awareness of naam and ruupa that presents itself, one at a time. ------------------------------ Question (v) What is the object of understanding all through the development of the different stages of insight? Answer: The objects of understanding all through the development of the different stages of insight are naama and ruupa, that presents itself, one at a time. ------------------------------ Question (vi) Can aversion be the object of insight in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained? Answer: Aversion can be an object of “mindfulness” in the gradual process of development of understanding, but aversion cannot be the object of “insight” in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained. Only one of the three characteristics of realities (naama and ruupa) can be the object of insight, to be penetrated by paññå accompanying the mahå-kusala cittas before the “change of lineage” (gotrabhu citta) arises in magga viithi. Then, the object becomes Nibbana for gotrabhu citta, magga citta and phala citta in the same viithi process. ------------------------------ Respectfully, Han #65950 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 100,000 Aeons sarahprocter... Hi Joop & JC, --- Joop wrote: > There is no reason, JC, to take this texts literal, better take them > metaphorical: Buddhism is no natural science. > The Buddha was silent about these these topics because they do not > help in the awakening proces. ..... S: In suttas such as DN27, Agga~n~na Sutta 'On knowledge of Beginnings', the detail is similar as I recall..... > > Still, it's fascinating. The source you gave, Sarah (www.sacred- > texts.com/bud/bits/index.htm) has most translations of hundred years > old. .... S: Much older than that. .... > I take a look at chapter 102, 'THE BUDDHIST APOCALYPSE'. > There I found a translation of Anâgata-Vamsa (History of Future > Events), .... S: Thank you for reminding me of this chapter in 'Buddhism in Translations' too. It contains a lot of detail about the decline of the teachings and so on. Most this detail can be found in other texts as well, I believe. ... > According John Bullitt (Beyond the Tipitaka; A Field Guide to Post- > canonical Pali Literature) > It's composed by Mahakassapa of Cola; (12th c.?): The life story of > Metteyya, the next Buddha > > What was special is that after doing a google search on 'Anagata- > vamsa' it wre most christian site who quoted it, as an non-chistian > example of apocalyptic ideas. Or - in my words - apocalyptic > phantasies. .... S: We have a translation - it is a later commentary based on an early poem as I recall. We also have another later commentary 'The Birth-Stories of the Ten Bodhisattas and the Dasabodhisattuppattikathaa' (PTS)which also starts with a chapter on Buddha Metteyya to be. Like you, I don't have a great lot of interest in world cycles and so on, but I appreciate that JC does. JC, take a look at ch 102 at the link I gave you last time and let us know how you go on that and my last post. Thanks Joop for adding this. Metta, Sarah ======== #65951 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipallaasas and sotaapanna sarahprocter... Dear Joop, --- Joop wrote: > J: Two misunderstandings. First my messages are primary adressed to > a topic and not to a person. > And second: I prefer information or opinions; 'nice responses' do not > help (my) dhamma-study. .... S: Oh, I misunderstood when you reminded me I hadn't replied. Next time, let's ask 'topic' to respond without any niceties:-). [Sorry, poor joke!) .... > > But thanks for you respons. > S: "…Everything about the development of the Path is difficult > because it completely goes against our usual Path." > J: I'm not only so modest (as Han) but also not so pessimistic (as > you). > Do I have a 'usual path"? I doubt. .... S: The usual path is following lobha, dosa and moha. Isn't this what happens most the day, even when we've considered the teachings quite a lot? .... > > You are right that there is no use in repeating the recent discussion > (with Jon) about what is possible in one lifetime. Only S: " We read > in the Jatakas and other texts about the countless lives he > [Sariputta] accompanied the bodhisatta …" That 'other texts' are > commentaries. .... S: I think that as Swee Boon and others pointed out, there are also lots and lots of suttas which refer to rebirth and past lives, teachings under previous Buddhas and so on. Perhaps he can help provide some references again if you are interested. ..... > Linguistic discussions are not important; but perhaps that it's not > only my misunderstanding Pali that I prefer 'metta' above 'adosa', > perhaps it's also the optimism-pessimism dimension. .... S: I don't think it has anything to do with optimism-pessimism, but a lot to do with the understanding of the Pali terms. Kusala or sobhana cittas and cetasikas can never be 'negative' or 'pessimistic'. By the way, isn't it preferable to be realistic rather than optimistic? ... > > So I have another set of questions that was implicit in my message to > you: > Why so many times is there a discussion in DSG about the question how > it is to be a sotapanna (in my words: a starting awakened) ???? .... S: I can't speak for the others. I joined in this thread because you asked me to, I thought. ... > Don't you think we should not worry or even think about that future > and better spend our time on the question: how to get a sotapanna ???. ... S: I think it's better to spend our time understanding the present moment dhammas and not being concerned about 'how to get' anything. Back to you. Hope this isn't too nice:-). Metta, Sarah p.s You'll be glad to hear that James mentioned to me (off-list) that he's looking forward to returning soon after his break. ======= #65952 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 1:26 am Subject: Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka antony272b2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your reply. I am grateful for you looking out for me on dsg. S: Do you have any textual sources where kata~n~nutaa (gratitude) is used in context? A: Here is the verse from the Maha Mangala Sutta, translated by Dr R.L.Soni: Gaaravo ca nivaato ca santu.t.thii ca kata~n~nutaa / kaalena dhammasavana.m etam ma"ngalam-uttama.m / Gaaravo (reverence) ca (and) nivaato (humility) ca (and) santu.t.thii (contentment) ca kata~n~nutaa (and gratitude) kaalena (timely) dhammasavana.m (hearing Dhamma) etam ma"ngalam-uttama.m (this, the Highest Blessing). Right reverence and humility Contentment and a grateful bearing, Hearing Dhamma when it's timely: This, the Highest Blessing. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soni/wheel254.html +++++ Ajahn Sumedho uses the term kata~n~nu kataveti: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GratitudeInspiration/message/1 Regarding reverence I like this quote by Dr R.L. Soni: "The further one has gone along the path of Dhamma the more reverence one has for it — and for others who also practice correctly. It is not that reverence grows less as one practices! This is a way of estimating one's own position, for if a lot of pride and conceit can be seen then one has not got very far!" Regarding upekkha, I'll research the Useful Posts before posting more. Thanks again. with metta / Antony. #65953 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 1:37 am Subject: Answers to Q. Cetasikas. nilovg Dear Han, as always I do appreciate your answers and elaborations which invite us to further considering Dhamma. I add a few things, inspired by your answers, just a further elaboration. --------- H: Question (ii) Through which doorway can insight knowledge realize seeing as it is? Answer: First, through the eye-door process when only colours are seen; but the insight knowledge that realizes seeing as it is can happen only through the mind-door process, which we call it secondary mano-dvara viithi. ------------------------------ N: Seeing is nama, and thus it can only be known by mind-door process cittas. When a stage of insight arises, nama is known as different from rupa, and this is in a mind-door process. There are many processes of the sense-door and the mind-door, and these cannot be counted, they go so fast. ----------- H: Question (iii) Can there be clinging when we perceive a teacup? Answer: Yes, we can cling to thinking of concept after seeing the teacup, if we pay attention to the beautiful shape and form of the teacup. ------------------------------ N: I think usually when we define what something is there is clinging, even if the object is not beautiful. But awareness can arise and then thinking of concepts can be known as a type of nama. Actually, this type arises time and again, also now. It can be understood as such. ------------ H: Question (iv) When is there thinking with akusala citta? Answer: Thinking with akusala citta usually occurs when there is just thinking of concepts, without the awareness of naam and ruupa that presents itself, one at a time. ------------------------------ N: When the objective is not dana, sila or mental development thinking is with akusala citta. We can think with metta of a person, or with generosity of a thing that we are going to give away, thus, we can think of concepts with kusala citta. But, as you say, usually we think with akusala citta of concepts. Anyway, there are so many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas. Without the Dhamma we would never, never have known this. ---------- H: Question (v) What is the object of understanding all through the development of the different stages of insight? Answer: The objects of understanding all through the development of the different stages of insight are naama and ruupa, that presents itself, one at a time. ------------------------------ N: very good. The object is the same but understanding of it grows. -------- H: Question (vi) Can aversion be the object of insight in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained? Answer: Aversion can be an object of “mindfulness” in the gradual process of development of understanding, but aversion cannot be the object of “insight” in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained. Only one of the three characteristics of realities (naama and ruupa) can be the object of insight, to be penetrated by paññå accompanying the mahå-kusala cittas before the “change of lineage” (gotrabhu citta) arises in magga viithi. Then, the object becomes Nibbana for gotrabhu citta, magga citta and phala citta in the same viithi process. ------------------------------ N: Yes, aversion can be the object of the maha-kusala cittas arising in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained. Why? Because it can be seen as impermanent, dukkha, anatta. When we speak about the three charactreistics, these are always the characteristic *of* a dhamma that presents itself, any dhamma, even lobha or dosa. Enlightenment occurs in daily life. Thus, the characteristic of anatta, etc. is never separated from a dhamma that naturally presents itself because of the appropriate conditions. When we consider this, we understand the the whole development of insight, up to enlightenment, occurs in daily life. We are angry and attached, but these are cetasikas, realities and their charactreistics can be penetrated deeper and deeper. With appreciation, Nina. #65954 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 1:22 am Subject: Whenever and Wherever ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: Some Sequential & Consequential Facts: Whenever and wherever there is Ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths; There is also Greed, Voracity, Lust, Desire, Craving and Longing! Whenever and wherever there is Greed, Lust, Desire, Craving; There is also the Hate of Envy, Jealousy, and Fear of Loosing! Whenever and wherever there is Hate, Envy, Jealousy & Anger; There is Conflict, Clash, Opposition, Hostility and sheer Violence! Whenever and wherever there is Conflict, Hostility and Violence; There is neither Peace, nor Harmony, nor any Relaxed Contentment! Whenever and wherever there is neither Peace, nor any Harmony; There is neither Gladness, nor elated Joy, nor Bliss nor Happiness! Whenever and wherever there is neither Gladness, nor Happiness; There is Suffering, Frustration, Misery, Distress & Discomfort! Whenever and wherever there is Suffering, Frustration, & Misery; There is no Concentration, nor any Calmed Clear Mental Absorption! Whenever and wherever there is no Concentration, nor Absorption; There is no penetration into the Nature of Phenomena as it really is! Whenever and wherever there is no penetration into the Realities; There is Ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths, Confusion and Doubt... Friends, therefore from Ignorance grow even more Ignorance!!! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #65955 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 1:46 am Subject: magga-citta and phala-citta, sati, samadhi nilovg Dear Fabian, -------- F: I also have some question regarding Magga, if understanding, vision,insight, knowlwdge, wisdom and light arises at the moment of magga, what we experience when Phala arises according to scriptures? All I know all this time is we experience cessation of mental factors temporarily, is that true? ------- N: The magga-citta and the phala-citta experience the unconditioned dhamma, nibbana. This is the third noble Truth, the cessation of dukkha. Lokuttara cittas are leading out of the cycle of birth and death and thus, they are leading out of dukkha. This is not the cessation of mental factors. The lokuttara citta and cetasikas experience nibbaana. But the anagami and arahat who have also developed the fourth stage of arupa-jhana and have mastery in jhana can attain cessation of citta and cetasikas, nirodha samaapatti. (details in Buddh dict. Nyanatiloka) --------- F: And I have an embarassing fundamental question, even though I read many books and practicing maditation a lot, but I cannot describe the exact difference of sati and samadhi, even though I apply both when practicing Vipassana. could you describe exactly? ------- N: It is avery good question, not embarassing at all. Not easy to answer in afew words. I sha;; qiuote from my Cetasikas, and perhaps we can further discuss what is not clear. Samadhi, ekaggata cetasika or concentration: <... among the seven 'universals' which arises with every citta with kusala citta, akusala citta, vipakacitta and kiriyacitta. Although wrong concentration and right concentration are both ekaggata cetasika their qualities are different. Samma-samadhi focuses on the object in the right way, the wholesome way. There are many levels of right concentration.... Samma-samdhi is one of the jhana-factor which are developed in samatha in order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhaha ... There is also samma-samadhi of vipassana. ...When panna knows a nama or a rupa as it is, there is at that moment also right concentration performing its function. Samma-samadhi is one of the factors of the eightfold Path. When panna knows, for example, the visible object which presents itself as only a rupa appearing through the eyes or the seeing which presents itself as only a nama which experiences visible object, there is also right concentration at that moment: samma samadhi focuses on the object in the right way....> N: You do not have to try to focus on an object, because ekaggata cetasika arises already, performing its function. Looking forward to discussing more, Nina. #65956 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka sarahprocter... Dear Antony & all, --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear Sarah, > A: Here is the verse from the Maha Mangala Sutta, translated by Dr > R.L.Soni: > Gaaravo ca nivaato ca > santu.t.thii ca kata~n~nutaa / > kaalena dhammasavana.m > etam ma"ngalam-uttama.m / > > Gaaravo (reverence) ca (and) nivaato (humility) ca (and) santu.t.thii > (contentment) ca kata~n~nutaa (and gratitude) kaalena (timely) > dhammasavana.m (hearing Dhamma) etam ma"ngalam-uttama.m (this, the > Highest Blessing). > > Right reverence and humility > Contentment and a grateful bearing, > Hearing Dhamma when it's timely: > This, the Highest Blessing. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soni/wheel254.html > +++++ ..... S: I can now add a little to this from the commentary, Paramatthajotikaa, translated as 'The Illustrator'(PTS). 1) commentary on the words: "Now as to 'Then respect': respect (gaaravao) is respectfulness (garubhaava). Humble manner (nivaato) is lowly mien (niicavattana). Content (santu.t.thii) is contentment (santosa). The state of knowing what has been done (katassa jaananataa) is grateful bearing (kata~n~nutaa). When it is timely (kaalena): when it is the moment, when it is the occasion. Hearing truth: dhammasavana'm=dhammassa savana'm (resolution of compound).....This is the word commentary. .... 2) commentary on the meaning (very abbreviated because it's long): "Respect (gaaravo) is the payment of respect (garukaara), paying respect (garukara.na), respectfulness (gaaravataa), accorded to Englightened Ones, Hermit Englightened Ones, Perfect Ones' disciples, teachers, preceptors, mothers, fathers, elder brothers and sisters, etc, who are the worthy means for the payment of respect. And that respect is called a good omen since it is a cause for going to a happy destination, etc..... "Humble manner (nivaato) is lowliness of the mind, humility in manner. The person possessing it has put away conceit, put away arrogance, and he resembles a foot-wiping cloth, resembles a bull with amputated horns, resembles a snake with extracted fangs, and is gentle, genial and easy to talk with. Such is 'humble manner'. This is called a good omen since it is a cause of obtaining the special qualities of fame, and so on. And it is said that -'One is humble and unobdurate -'Is such as will acquire good fame' (Ja vi, 286)" "Content (santu.t.thii) is contentment with the [four] requisite conditions whatever they are like. That is of twelve kinds. There are three kinds in the case of the robe, namely, contentment with what one gets, contentment with one's own strength, and contentment with what is befitting; and similarly in the cases of alms food, [resting-place, and medicine]...... "Grateful bearing (kata~n~nutaa) is the state of knowing (jaananataa), by recollection again and again, about assistance, whether little or much, and done by whomsoever it may be. Furthermore, 'grateful bearing' can also be understood as recollection of [acts of]merit, which also greatly assist breathing things since they protect them from hell's sufferings and so on. Consequently 'grateful bearing' can be understood as the recollection of their assistance. That is called a good omen since it is a cause for acquiring the many sorts of distinctions beginning with commendability by True Men. And it is said: 'Bhikkhus, two kinds of person are hard to find in the world. What two? One who first does [a favour], and one who is grateful, who is recognizant' (A.i.87)." ***** S: The last AN quote is the one you gave before too. .... > Ajahn Sumedho uses the term kata~n~nu kataveti: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GratitudeInspiration/message/1 > > Regarding reverence I like this quote by Dr R.L. Soni: > "The further one has gone along the path of Dhamma the more reverence > one has for it — and for others who also practice correctly. It is > not that reverence grows less as one practices! This is a way of > estimating one's own position, for if a lot of pride and conceit can > be seen then one has not got very far!" ..... S: Yes, thanks. .... > Regarding upekkha, I'll research the Useful Posts before posting more. ... S: Please do. You'll see the different meanings referred to as well. I'll be glad to discuss anything further. Also, ch 30 in 'Cetasikas' by Nina is very helpful on 'Equanimity'. Thanks again for helping us to consider more about the meaning of 'gratitude' and the other qualities, such as 'humble manner' referred to in the quotes above. Metta, Sarah ======= #65957 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 5:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking scottduncan2 Dear All, 2006-02-15A-a is a very good nimitta of a discussion! Scott. #65958 From: han tun Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Answers to Q. Cetasikas. Question (ii) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you ever so much. Your comments are very deep, and very beneficial for me. If you don’t mind, I would like to discuss one ‘question and answer’ at a time. ********** H: Question (ii) Through which doorway can insight knowledge realize seeing as it is? Answer: First, through the eye-door process when only colours are seen; but the insight knowledge that realizes seeing as it is can happen only through the mind-door process, which we call it secondary mano-dvara viithi. ------------------------------ N: Seeing is nama, and thus it can only be known by mind-door process cittas. When a stage of insight arises, nama is known as different from rupa, and this is in a mind-door process. There are many processes of the sense-door and the mind-door, and these cannot be counted, they go so fast. ------------------------------ Han: First, let me look at *cakkhu-dvaara viithi*. Bha-Ti-Na-Da-Pa-Ca-Sam-Na-Vo-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Ja-Da-Da-Bha. Bha = bhavanga Ti = atita-bhavanga Na =bhavanga-calaana Da = bhavang-upaccheda Pa = panca-dvaaraavajjana = five-door adverting consciousness. It adverts the consciousness stream towards the sense-object. Ca = cakkhu-vi~n~naana = eye-consciousness. It *sees* the visible object. It makes the sense impression and transmits the impression to the next consciousness before it dissolves. Sam = sampaticchana = receiving consciousness. Na = santirana =investigating consciousness. Vo = votthapana = determining consciousness. Ja = seven impulsive consciousness *enjoying the taste of the sense object*. One of the 29 kaama-javana cittas, as conditioned by manasikaara and votthapana, arises mostly seven times, i.e. it runs for seven conscious moments. Da = tadaalambana = registering consciouness. Bha = bhavanga. Then there are *secondary mano-dvaara viithis* at the mind-door which follows each and everyone of the panca-dvaara viithi. In panca-dvaara viithi, the sense-impression is processed only to the extent to be known roughly whether it is good or bad. The form, shape, and detailed features and the name of the object are not known yet. Thus after a panca-dvaara viithi, a mano-dvaara viithi quickly follows it retaking the sense-object of the panca-dvaara viithi as a past object. Only after many of these secondary mano-dvaara viithis, does one know the object together with form, shape, name and other details. Thus seeing is not only at the mind-door process. It is the combination of eye-door process and mind-door process, although the *seeing* is complete at the mind-door process. True, these processes go very fast, but when we are considering the paramattha dhammas, this fastness should not be an obstacle for learning the details of the processes. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > as always I do appreciate your answers and > elaborations which invite > us to further considering Dhamma. I add a few > things, inspired by > your answers, just a further elaboration. > --------- #65959 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 7:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: vipallaasas and sotaapanna jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Joop, > ... Dear Sarah Thanks again for responding to the topics raised by me J: > Why so many times is there a discussion in DSG about the question how > it is to be a sotapanna (in my words: a starting awakened) ???? S: I can't speak for the others. I joined in this thread because you asked me to, I thought. J: Come on Sarah, I did a search on threads in DSG on this question. This question (and the question how it is to be a arahant) is posed again and again in DSG. Below the result of only the last two weeks. So WE can't possibly speak FOR the others but we can speak TO the others: "We, Sarah and Joop, advice all the people on DSG not thinking so much on the question: "how is it to be a sotapanna or a arahant?"; We think it's better to spend our time understanding the present moment." DSG-THREADS ABOUT BEING A SOTAPANNA: Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling Heedlessness of sotaapanna. Vipallaasas and sotaapanna Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling Cetasikas' study corner 591- The Stages of Insight(m) A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo Neither Dear nor Undear Doubt of a sotaapanna. DSG-THREADS ABOUT BEING AN ARAHANT: Awareness and thinking, nimitta From Udana 2.1 (Two Translations, Each Good) Questions again Six Internal Sense Bases as Noble Truth of Dukkha Cessation as Final Finality Nibbana and the Absence of Objects Re: [dsg] The 2 Dimensions of Nibbana J > and better spend our time on the question: how to get a sotapanna ???. S: I think it's better to spend our time understanding the present moment dhammas and not being concerned about 'how to get' anything. J: That is a bit contradictory with remarks about 'the Path' you (and all of us) are making, for example: > S: "…Everything about the development of the Path is difficult ecause it completely goes against our usual Path." J: So 'the Path' is important, 'to go' I say in my metaphoric language; or 'to develop' you say in your mixture of two metaphores. And with what purpose? Sotapanna, don't you think? Or straight to arahantship? S: p.s You'll be glad to hear that James mentioned to me (off-list) that he's looking forward to returning soon after his break. J: Yes, I am: it's a bit dull here now. Metta Joop #65960 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 11:08 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 145 nilovg Dear friends, There are still other kinds of kåmåvacara sobhana cittas: the mahå- kiriyacittas. The arahat has mahå-kiriyacittas instead of mahå-kusala cittas. Since he has no conditions for rebirth he does not accumulate any more kamma. He has mahå-kiriyacittas (inoperative cittas) which perform the function of javana in the sense-door process and in the mind-door process. When we experience a pleasant object lobha may arise and when we experience an unpleasant object dosa may arise. The arahat has equanimity towards pleasant objects and unpleasant objects, he has no more defilements. The arahat can have mahå- kiriyacittas which are ñåùa-vippayutta, not accompanied by wisdom. Arahats can have mahå-kiriyacittas which are ~naa.na-vippayutta, because paññå does not necessarily accompany the mahå-kiriyacittas when they are not preaching or discussing Dhamma. The arahat has kiriyacittas which are sobhana cittas and also kiriyacittas which are asobhana cittas. The five sense-door-adverting consciousness, pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta, the mind-door-adverting consciousness, mano-dvåråvajjana-citta, the hasituppåda-citta, smile producing consciousness of the arahat which can perform the function of javana, are asobhana kiriyacittas. These types of citta are not accompanied by sobhana cetasikas, they are ahetuka. There are eight types of mahå-kiriyacittas in all. They are accompanied by somanassa or by upekkhå, they are accompanied by paññå or not accompanied by paññå, they are asa.nkhårika or sasa.nkhårika. They are classified in the same way as the eight types of mahå-kusala cittas. Altogether there are fifty-four cittas which are kåma-bhúmi, or kåmåvacara cittas, cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness. They are: 12 akusala cittas | 30 asobhana cittas 18 ahetuka cittas | 8 mahå-kusala cittas | 8 mahå-vipåkacittas | 24 sobhana cittas 8 mahå-kiriyacittas | Thus, there are thirty asobhana cittas and twenty-four kåma-sobhana cittas (sobhana cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness). ******* Nina. #65961 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 11:11 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, II, 8. nilovg Dear friends, The first stage of insight which clearly distinguishes nåma from rúpa may seem to be far away, but it is useful to know that this is the first stage. When one experiences changes of the body temperature or notices the appearance and disappearance of sound, one may believe that one experiences the impermanence of rúpas. However, the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa is the fourth stage of insight or the first stage of "principal insight", mahå-vipassanå, and this cannot be realized if the first stage of "tender insight" has not been reached . We are inclined to name or label the objects which appear and to think about them for a long time instead of being mindful of them in order to know them as nåma or as rúpa. Khun Sujin reminded Alan: “Life is just the flux of realities. Without studying the details about realities it is very difficult to become detached from the object which is experienced. Detachment is most helpful. Forgetting about labelling the objects is another stepping-stone which has to be taken and this is difficult.” Life exists only in a moment. When we consider this more we shall be less inclined to cling to the concept of a person. When we cling to someone or dislike someone it is only thinking. We always think of people, but when there is awareness we know whether we think with kusala citta or with akusala citta, with loving kindness or with aversion. Khun Sujin said: “When we have aversion we should find out whether it is a name or a reality which is the object of aversion. A name represents a person. When you think of a name you think of someone. Right understanding can find out that it is thinking again. One lives with one's own thoughts. Develop loving kindness instead of having aversion towards what is only a name.” When we understand that a person, in the ultimate sense, exists only in our thoughts, we can appreciate the following reminder: “What we consider as a friend in conventional terms is only an idea. When you have a friend what does it mean? About what do you talk? ‘What shall we do tomorrow, where are we going, what shall we eat?’ Thus it means that you associate with someone's opinion which you consider as a friend. These are moments of thinking. We may associate with wrong opinions or with right opinions and that influences our way of life.” ******* Nina. #65962 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 12:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking nilovg Dear Scott, very good. I made notes so we can discuss. It is my sleeping time, but just this: understanding nimitta a supporting condiiton for pa~n~naa to become detached. How can one have less and less attachmetn to the result of study and developing. When one is thinking about oneself (like: how can I know more, understand more, or my feeling frustrated about life being a dream) it always shows clinging. Understanding nimitta helps detachment was the main point I got. Nina. Op 8-dec-2006, om 14:01 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > 2006-02-15A-a is a very good nimitta of a discussion! #65963 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 5:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Sleep well then: N: "...very good. I made notes so we can discuss...understanding nimitta a supporting condition for pa~n~naa to become detached." Yes. Very good stuff. N: "...How can one have less and less attachment to the result of study and developing. When one is thinking about oneself (like: how can I know more, understand more, or my feeling frustrated about life being a dream) it always shows clinging. Understanding nimitta helps detachment was the main point I got." Also the gist I got. Talk to you soon. Scott. #65964 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 5:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Water. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Good points here: S: "...but the last sentence may be rather ambiguous. While it's true that (as discussed at length) the water element cannot be physically > sensed as it says, I don't think it's true to say that it 'must be known inferentially' only, even though this is what happens for us without the panna to know it directly through the mind-door." Yes, that makes sense. Maybe the point is that one still cannot literally 'touch' apo-dhatu. I do think that developed pa~n~na can know 'cohesion' although this is beyond my experience. S: "First of all, it's made clear from the Ab.Sangaha V1,#3 (CMA p237)that apo dhatu (water element) is included in the 18 rupas which are nipphannaruupa (concretely produced matter), 'Thus these eighteen kinds of material phenomena are grouped together as: matter possessing intrinsic nature (sabhaavaruupa'm), matter possessingreal characteristics (salakkha.naruupa'm), concretely produced matter(nipphannaruupa'm), material matter, and matter to be comprehended by insight (sammasanaruupa'm ti ca sangaha'm gacchati)....These are called materiality that has a particular nature because of their each being differentiated by their own particular natures, such as hardness, etc...They are materiality as real products (nipphanna) because they are by their very nature, quite apart from their state of delimitation...Since the water element, being by nature subtle, is incapable of being touched, he states 'considered as the three elements excluding the water element'. For even though one apprehend cold when one touches [something], this is just fire... When people touch the three essential materialities that exist along with fluidity, they imagine they are touching fluidity...When they touch the elements and discern a shape with the mind, they think they touch [that shape] directly; so fluidity should be considered in the same way as this...'" Makes one think twice drinking a glass of water while having a cold shower... Scott. #65965 From: han tun Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 5:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Answers to Q. Cetasikas. Question (iii) hantun1 Dear Nina, Question (iii) Can there be clinging when we perceive a teacup? > H: Answer: Yes, we can cling to thinking of concept after seeing the teacup, if we pay attention to the beautiful shape and form of the teacup. ------------ > N: I think usually when we define what something is there is clinging, even if the object is not beautiful. But awareness can arise and then thinking of concepts can be known as a type of nama. Actually, this type arises time and again, also now. It can be understood as such. ------------ Han: You have brought up a good point that there can be clinging when we perceive an object even if it is not beautiful. It will be like when one “clings” to something or someone with dosa. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #65966 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 5:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Antony, and Christine) - In a message dated 12/8/06 1:05:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: I think that when we appreciate that there are only dhammas performing > deeds, experiencing results and so on, there is no confusion about 'done > by whom?'. ========================== I've made the point before, Sarah: I don't think this is a good way to put this matter. Dhammas that would perform deeds, experience results, and so on would be "little selves". They would be agents. There are no agents that do or experience. There are no doers or experiencers. There are just instances of doing and experiencing. Agent terminology is best avoided in order to stop atta from sneaking in the back door. ;-) With metta, Howard (just returned from Texas) #65967 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka ken_aitch Hi Howard, Thanks for injecting a bit of controversy into the discussions. :-) ---------------- H: > I've made the point before, Sarah: I don't think this is a good way to put this matter. Dhammas that would perform deeds, experience results, and so on would be "little selves". They would be agents. There are no agents that do or experience. There are no doers or experiencers. There are just instances of doing and experiencing. Agent terminology is best avoided in order to stop atta from sneaking in the back door. ;-) ------------------- "Little selves?" Are you saying that anything that exists has to be a self? I am sure that is not what the Buddha meant by the term, atta. When you say doers and experiencers would be agents; agents of whom? Why would they necessarily be acting on behalf of anyone? The realities that are called namas include those that do volitional deeds and those that experience the results of volitional deeds. Therefore, it would be misleading to say there were only *instances* of doing and experiencing. That would imply there were no realities performing those functions. It would also imply there were no objects (real or imaginary) to which the functions of doing were directed. And it would imply there were no absolutely real objects (rupas) that were experienced as a result. But there are! :-) Ken H #65968 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 1:05 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 604- Wholesome Deeds(a) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Part IV: Sobhana Cetasikas Chapter 36 Wholesome Deeds As we have seen, nineteen sobhana cetasikas accompany each sobhana citta. In order to perform wholesome deeds the kusala citta needs the assistance of at least these nineteen cetasikas. It needs confidence in kusala, mindfulness which is non-forgetful of kusala, shame which shrinks from akusala and fear of blame which fears its consequences. Each kusala citta has to be rooted in the two beautiful roots, sobhana hetus, of non-attachment, alobha, and non-aversion, adosa. Moreover, there has to be equanimity or mental balance, there has to be calm of cetasikas and calm of citta. There have to be the other “pairs” of mental lightness, pliancy, workableness, proficiency and uprightness, so that there is suppleness and proficiency in the performing of good deeds(1). In addition to the nineteen sobhana cetasikas which accompany each sobhana citta, there are, as we have seen, six other sobhana cetasikas which do not accompany each sobhana citta. These are the three abstinences of right speech, right action and right livelihood, compassion, sympathetic joy and understanding. Thus, there are twenty-six sobhana cetasikas in all. The three abstinences, compassion and sympathetic joy arise when there is an opportunity for them. Understanding does not accompany each sobhana citta, but for mental development, which includes samatha and vipassanå, understanding is indispensable. Each sobhana cetasika has its own function to perform while it assists the kusala citta. Learning about these sobhana cetasikas will help us to see that good qualities do not belong to a self. It is not “I” who is generous, who has kindness or compassion, they are sobhana cetasikas which assist the kusala citta. *** 1) For the “Six Pairs” see Chapter 31. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #65969 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 12:59 am Subject: Visudhimagga Ch XVII, 120 and Tiika. nilovg Vis. Ch XVII, 120. Intro: In the preceding sections the Visuddhimagga explained that ignorance conditions kusala kamma, akusala kamma and imperturbable kamma, the kamma that is aruupa-jhaana. The Visuddhimagga elaborated on the different ways ignorance conditions kamma-formations. In this section it deals with the fact that kamma conditions vi~n~naa.na, consciousness, that is vipaakacitta. Kamma conditions vipaaka in the form of rebirth-consciousness and in the form of vipaakacittas arising in the course of life. It explains that lokuttara (supramundane) vipaakacittas are not part of the cycle of birth and death. ------------ Text Vis.: [(1) Kinds of Mundane Resultant Consciousness] 120. In the clause, 'with formations as condition, consciousness', consciousness is sixfold as eye-consciousness, and so on. Herein, eye-consciousness is twofold, namely, profitable [kamma-] resultant and unprofitable [kamma-] resultant. Likewise ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body consciousness. ------- N: These are the five pairs of sense-cognitions that are vipaakacittas. --------- Text Vis.: But mind consciousness is twenty-two-fold, namely, the two profitable and unprofitable resultant mind elements and, the three root-causeless mind-consciousness elements, -------- N: In the Suttanta we find a sixfold classification of citta: the five types of sense-cognitions and mind-consciousness which includes all the other cittas. The text elaborates here on the vipaakacittas that are included in mind-consciousness. The mundane vipaakacittas included in mind-consciousness, mano- vi~n~naa.na, are: receiving-consciousness, the kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta arising after each of the sense-cognitions. This is classified under mind-element, mano-dhaatu. As to the three root-causeless (ahetuka) mind-consciousness elements, these are the three types of investigating-consciousness, santiira.nacitta, which are ahetuka vipaakacitta. One type is akusala vipaakacitta and two types are kusala vipaakacitta, accompanied by indifferent feeling or by happy feeling. These are classified under mind-consciousness element, mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu. ------------- Text Vis.: and the eight sense-sphere resultant consciousnesses with root-cause (sahetuka), the five of the fine-material sphere, and the four of the immaterial sphere. ---------- N: These are the eight types of vipaakacittas with sobhana hetus, beautiful roots, which are the results of kusala kamma. Of these, four types are accompanied by wisdom, four types are not accompanied by wisdom; four types are accompanied by pleasant feeling and four types by indifferent feeling; four types are asa.nkhaarika (unprompted, spontaneous, not induced by someone else or by one's own consideration) and four types are sasa.nkhaarika (prompted, by someone else or by oneself). Furthermore, there are five ruupaavacara vipaakacittas, the results of ruupa-jhaana, and four aruupaavacara vipaakacittas, the results of aruupa-jhaana. Thus, there are twentytwo mundane (lokiya) vipaakacittas in all, classified under mind-consciousness, that is the sixth consciousness mentioned after the sense-cognitions that are classified as fivefold. ---------- Text Vis.: So all the thirty-two mundane resultant consciousnesses are included by these six kinds of consciousness. --------- N: Altogether there are thirtytwo kinds of mundane resultant consciousnesses: the five pairs of sense-cognitions (one of each pair being kusala vipaakacitta and one akusala vipaakacitta), and twentytwo types classified under mind-consciousness. --------- Text Vis.: But the supramundane kinds do not belong to the exposition of the round [of becoming], and so they are not included. ---------- N: The Tiika refers to different ways of classifying vipaakacittas. It refers to the texts of the Dhaatu-katha, the Discourse on Elements, the third Book of the Abhidhamma, the Vibha”nga, the Book of Analysis, the second Book of the Abhidhamma and the Dhammasa”nganii, the first Book of the Abhidhamma. It deals with the question that is asked why in some texts also lokuttara vipaakacittas are included. The Tiika quotes from the Dhaatu-kaatha which classifies conditioned realities as khandhas and all realities (nibbaana included) as aayatanas and dhaatus. In Ch 1,6, ‘Dependent Origination and so on’, it states which dhammas are classified (‘included, sa”ngathita) in how many khandhas, aayatanas and dhaatus, and which ones are not included (unclassified, asa”ngathita). The Tiika answers the question why also lokuttara vipaakacittas are included (lokuttaravipaakaanampi gahana.m) in these classifications of the Dhaatukatha. The answer is that all vipaakadhammas are exhaustively classified (anavasesavipaakadhammasa”nga.nhana) in the Abhidhamma divisions. The Tiika refers to the text of the Dhammasanga”nganii (987) which includes also lokuttara vipaakacittas under vipaakacittas. However, the text of the Visuddhimagga states “But the supramundane kinds do not belong to the exposition of the round”, in order to explain that only mundane vipaakacittas are included in the exposition of the round. ---------- Conclusion: Mundane vipaakacittas are part of the cycle of birth and death. They are objects of clinging, we cling to seeing and all the sense impressions. So long as there is clinging, the cycle of birth and death continues. Lokuttara vipaakacittas are not part of the cycle, they are not objects of clinging. Lokuttara dhammas are the only dhammas that are not objects of clinging. We read in the “Atthasaalinii” (47, 48, p. 63) about the meaning of lokiya and lokuttara: The lokuttara vipaakacitta arises immediately after the lokuttara kusala citta, the magga-citta, in the same process, and it is the only type of vipaakacitta that performs the function of javana. In the case of cittas of the sense-sphere, kusala cittas or akusala cittas (in the case of non-arahats) perform the function of javana. What is worldly arises and falls away, it crumbles away. The Dhaatukathaa reminds us, page after page, that khandhas, and, with the exclusion of nibbaana (classified under dhammaayatana and dhammadhaatu), the aayatanas and dhaatus arise and fall away. If right understanding of them is developed the lokuttara magga-citta of the sotaapanna can arise and then one can be sure that eventually there will be an end to the cycle. ******* Nina. #65970 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 1:24 am Subject: processes of cittas. nilovg Dear Han, thank you very much, reminding us of the complexity of the different processes. ------------ H: First, let me look at *cakkhu-dvaara viithi*. .... One of the 29 kaama-javana cittas, as conditioned by manasikaara and votthapana, arises mostly seven times, i.e. it runs for seven conscious moments. ------- N: Quite so. I would say they are conditioned by our accumulated kusala and akusala. It is all so fast, there is no time to *do* anything. -------- H: Then there are *secondary mano-dvaara viithis* at the mind-door which follows each and everyone of the panca-dvaara viithi. In panca-dvaara viithi, the sense-impression is processed only to the extent to be known roughly whether it is good or bad. The form, shape, and detailed features and the name of the object are not known yet. --------- N: Knowing roughly whether it is good or bad, you say. I think that it is not known whether the experience of the sense-object such as visible object, is desirable or undesirable, thus, kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. Like at this moment of seeing, do we know this? It is hard to know. --------- H: Thus after a panca-dvaara viithi, a mano-dvaara viithi quickly follows it.... Thus seeing is not only at the mind-door process. It is the combination of eye-door process and mind-door process, although the *seeing* is complete at the mind-door process. -------- N: As to *seeing* is complete at the mind-door process, I know what you mean. But we could say, the experience of visible object in a mind-door process, since seeing only arises in a sense-door process. But that is why you say, *seeing*. ---------- H: True, these processes go very fast, but when we are considering the paramattha dhammas, this fastness should not be an obstacle for learning the details of the processes. ------- N: Yes, it is very useful, it teaches us something about the rapidity of the different processes and about the fact that there is no time to do anything. Amazing that we immediately think of a concept on account of what is seen, even now when looking at the table or computer. And then, in these processes we think with javanacittas that are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. We do not notice it that just now we think of the table with akusala cittas when there is no mindfulness of a dhamma such as visible object. When understanding is developed there are also conditions for citta, instead of defining, to be aware of that rupa or that nama. As Kh Sujin says: we take realities for something all the time. We are so much in the habit of this, but by developing understanding habits can be changed. ****** Nina. #65971 From: Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 1:42 am Subject: RE: [dsg] processes of cittas. jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... if you have pl let me know dasa kusal and dasa akusal, peace, jm ________________________________ Dear Han, thank you very much, reminding us of the complexity of the different processes. ------------ H: First, let me look at *cakkhu-dvaara viithi*. .... One of the 29 kaama-javana cittas, as conditioned by manasikaara and votthapana, arises mostly seven times, i.e. it runs for seven conscious moments. ------- N: Quite so. I would say they are conditioned by our accumulated kusala and akusala. It is all so fast, there is no time to *do* anything. -------- H: Then there are *secondary mano-dvaara viithis* at the mind-door which follows each and everyone of the panca-dvaara viithi. In panca-dvaara viithi, the sense-impression is processed only to the extent to be known roughly whether it is good or bad. The form, shape, and detailed features and the name of the object are not known yet. --------- N: Knowing roughly whether it is good or bad, you say. I think that it is not known whether the experience of the sense-object such as visible object, is desirable or undesirable, thus, kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. Like at this moment of seeing, do we know this? It is hard to know. --------- <...> #65972 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] processes of cittas. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind response. > > H: First, let me look at *cakkhu-dvaara viithi*. .... One of the 29 kaama-javana cittas, as conditioned by manasikaara and votthapana, arises mostly seven times, i.e. it runs for seven conscious moments. ------- > N: Quite so. I would say they are conditioned by our accumulated kusala and akusala. It is all so fast, there is no time to *do* anything. -------- Han: Yes, javana cittas are conditioned by our accumulated kusala and akusala. As regards there is no time to *do* anything is also correct. But here we are not talking about doing anything at this stage, because the process of seeing is not yet even completed at this stage of cakkhu-dvaara viithi. ********** > > H: Then there are *secondary mano-dvaara viithis* at the mind-door which follows each and everyone of the panca-dvaara viithi. In panca-dvaara viithi, the sense-impression is processed only to the extent to be known roughly whether it is good or bad. The form, shape, and detailed features and the name of the object are not known yet. --------- > N: Knowing roughly whether it is good or bad, you say. I think that it is not known whether the experience of the sense-object such as visible object, is desirable or undesirable, thus, kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. Like at this moment of seeing, do we know this? It is hard to know. --------- Han: Dr. Mehm Tin Mon (from whose book I took all these) did not elaborate what he meant by knowing roughly whether it is good or bad. What I think is he was referring to cakkhu-vi~n~naana-dhaatu or cakkhu-vi~n~naanadvi, the wholesome resultant and unwholesome resultant. Or he might be referring to upekkha-sahagatam cakkhu-vi~n~naanam of akusala vipaaka cittas, and upekkha-sahagatam cakkhu-vi~n~naanam of ahetuka kusala vipaaka cittas. At any rate, you are right that at this moment of seeing, we cannot know this. ********** > > H: Thus after a panca-dvaara viithi, a mano-dvaara viithi quickly follows it.... Thus seeing is not only at the mind-door process. It is the combination of eye-door process and mind-door process, although the *seeing* is complete at the mind-door process. -------- > N: As to *seeing* is complete at the mind-door process, I know what you mean. But we could say, the experience of visible object in a mind-door process, since seeing only arises in a sense-door process. But that is why you say, *seeing*. ---------- Han: Now, it becomes a bit complicated. Do you mean to say that *seeing* only arises in eye-door process, and the visible object is *experienced* at the mind-door process? If so, it is a new idea for me to take note of. ********** > > H: True, these processes go very fast, but when we are considering the paramattha dhammas, this fastness should not be an obstacle for learning the details of the processes. ------- > N: Yes, it is very useful, it teaches us something about the rapidity of the different processes and about the fact that there is no time to do anything. Amazing that we immediately think of a concept on account of what is seen, even now when looking at the table or computer. And then, in these processes we think with javanacittas that are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. We do not notice it that just now we think of the table with akusala cittas when there is no mindfulness of a dhamma such as visible object. When understanding is developed there are also conditions for citta, instead of defining, to be aware of that rupa or that nama. As Kh Sujin says: we take realities for something all the time. We are so much in the habit of this, but by developing understanding habits can be changed. ------- Han: The above passage is very deep and profound. It will take me some time to digest it. But digest I will. It is very beneficial for me to have discussions with you, and I thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > thank you very much, reminding us of the complexity > of the different > processes. > ------------ #65973 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 4:04 am Subject: RE: [dsg] processes of cittas. hantun1 Dear JM, Ten akusala kamma-pathas (ten unwholesome actions) 1. paanaatipaataa, killing any living being 2. adinnaadaanaa, stealing or taking what is not given 3. kamesu-micchaacaaraa, sexual misconduct 4. musaavaadaa, lying 5. pisunavaacaa, slandering 6. pharusavaacaa, rude or harsh speech 7. samphappalaapa, idle talk or foolish babble 8. abhijjhaa, covetousness 9. byaapaada, ill-will 10. micchaaditthi, wrong view Ten kusala kamma-pathas (ten wholesome actions) are avoidance of the above ten unwholesome actions. Metta, Han --- jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... wrote: > if you have pl let me know dasa kusal and dasa > akusal, > peace, > jm > #65974 From: Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 4:17 am Subject: RE: [dsg] processes of cittas. jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... appreciate han your kind prompt reply, peace, jm #65975 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] processes of cittas. nilovg Dear Jayasinghe, I did not see you before, are you new? I appreciate your question. Han has answered already. Most important is knowing the citta that motivates our deeds. We learn that daana is kusala. From the outward appearance it may seem that we are generously giving things, but we should know the different cittas. One may give because of motives that are not so noble, like making a good impression upon others. Or, some cittas are kusala, but they are alternated with cittas that are akusala, such as cittas with conceit. What is your opinion about this? Nina. Op 9-dec-2006, om 10:42 heeft het volgende geschreven: > if you have pl let me know dasa kusal and dasa akusal, #65976 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/9/06 3:25:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for injecting a bit of controversy into the discussions. :-) > > ---------------- > H: >I've made the point before, Sarah: I don't think this is a good > way to put this matter. Dhammas that would perform deeds, experience > results, and so on would be "little selves". They would be agents. > There are no agents that do or experience. There are no doers or > experiencers. There are just instances of doing and experiencing. > Agent terminology is best avoided in order to stop atta from sneaking > in the back door. ;-) > ------------------- > > "Little selves?" Are you saying that anything that exists has to be a > self? I am sure that is not what the Buddha meant by the term, atta. > > When you say doers and experiencers would be agents; agents of whom? > Why would they necessarily be acting on behalf of anyone? > > The realities that are called namas include those that do volitional > deeds and those that experience the results of volitional deeds. > Therefore, it would be misleading to say there were only *instances* > of doing and experiencing. That would imply there were no realities > performing those functions. > > It would also imply there were no objects (real or imaginary) to which > the functions of doing were directed. And it would imply there were no > absolutely real objects (rupas) that were experienced as a result. > > But there are! :-) > > Ken H ============================ Being conscious of a sound is just that. There is not a thing that is being conscious. There is just the consciousness-activity. Likewise for recongnizing, feeling, and so on. With metta, Howard #65977 From: connie Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 7:45 am Subject: ignorances nichiconn dear nina, BB's Net of Views: four ignorances on p215, para beginning The particular origin is also twofold: << ...; the ignorance of beings about the proper way to behave in the face of praise and blame; their ignorance about the various kinds of virtue which form the object of praise; their ignorance of the unobstructed coursing of the ominiscient knowledge in the sixty-two standpoints of views and in that which transcends them; and their ignorance of the fact that the Tathaagata cannot be contained anywhere [in any of the realms of existence]. >> Ignorance (as non-penetration of origin) "leads to confinement in the prison of sa"msaara, for it functions as the condition for kamma formations" (p232) {c: asubha!} p233: << Ignorance, indicated by the phrase "who do not know and do not see", is described by way of its objective domain as four and of eight types.>> In the section (pp239-41) on the Method of the Lion's Play "...the four perversions are shown. The four foundations of mindfulness are implied as their opposites. ... all four perversions, indicate the truth of the origin..." and i think we are back to nimitta... no friend. peace, connie #65978 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka lbidd2 Hi Ken, K: "It would also imply there were no objects (real or imaginary) to which the functions of doing were directed. And it would imply there were no absolutely real objects (rupas) that were experienced as a result." L: That's the way I see it. No subject/object relationship _in_ experience and the consciousness of visible data is what we usually erroneously call the visible data rupa. There is some support for this view in the Visuddhimagga: Vism.XV,41: "Individually, however, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a drum, the visible-data element as the drumstick, and the eye-consciousness element as the sound. Likewise, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a looking- glass, the visible-data element as the face, and the eye-consciousness element as the image of the face..." L: In other words the appearance of this email is the, presumably accurate, reflection of the actual visible data of the email. Rupa is not really an element of experience. Experience is consciousness only. Also, objects are what consciousness reacts to. Experience is a series of reactions, not a series of objects. "Object" is a concept only. It is not *now*. Larry #65979 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 8:04 am Subject: Nimitta scottduncan2 Dear Nina (and other nimitta afficianados), I've had another listen or two: N: "...understanding nimitta is a supporting condiiton for pa~n~naa to become detached. How can one have less and less attachment to the result of study and developing. When one is thinking about oneself (like: how can I know more, understand more, or my feeling frustrated about life being a dream) it always shows clinging. Understanding nimitta helps detachment was the main point I got." I think this was a good sort of clarification. This portion of the discussion started with a dichotomy: Nimitta and animitta. Detachment did seem to be a strong focus. Kh. Sujin: "Pa~n~na knows everything just past" N: "No more nimitta?" Kh. Sujin: "Nibbaana only." And later, Kh. Sujin: "When vipassanaa realises - no nimitta - the understanding is complete." This contrasts her earlier statements: "When the pa~n~na cannot penetrate the arising and falling away, its nimitta", and, "As long as it arises there must be nimitta of that which has arisen." Sarah asked about whether nimitta 'becomes stronger.' What do you think? I think nimitta is nimitta, no stronger or weaker, until it is seen differently. Kh. Sujin said, "that which is not real" is nimitta. This is experience now with undeveloped pa~n~na. I think it is pa~n~na which develops and eventually penetrates the arising and falling away and then no more nimitta. Anyway, enough for now. With loving kindness, Scott. #65980 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 10:30 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 146. nilovg Dear friends, There are also sobhana cittas which are not kåma-sobhana cittas, namely: the sobhana cittas which are rúpa-bhúmi 1) (rúpåvacara cittas, for those who attain rúpa-jhåna) the sobhana cittas which are arúpa-bhúmi (arúpåvacara cittas, for those who attain arúpa-jhåna) the sobhana cittas which are lokuttara bhúmi, (lokuttara cittas for those who attain enlightenment) Only kåmåvacara cittas can include both sobhana cittas and asobhana cittas. Cittas which are rúpa-bhúmi, arúpa-bhúmi and lokuttara bhúmi can only be sobhana cittas. Those who do not attain jhåna or attain enlightenment cannot know the cittas of other bhúmis, but they can verify the truth of the Buddha's teachings as regards the kåma-bhúmi. We can find out for ourselves whether it is beneficial to perform dåna, observe síla and apply ourselves to bhåvanå. We can find out whether the development of these ways of kusala helps us to have less akusala cittas. Sometimes it is the right moment for dåna, sometimes for síla or for bhåvanå. Vipassanå, right understanding of realities, can be developed at any time, no matter whether we perform dåna, observe síla, study or teach Dhamma. Right understanding can also be developed when there is no opportunity for dåna, síla or other ways of kusala. Through mindfulness of nåma and rúpa we come to know the different types of cittas which arise, also akusala cittas and eventually there will be less attachment to the concept of self. In being mindful we can verify the truth of the Buddha's teachings. We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Sevens, chapter VIII, §9, The message): Now the venerable Upåli came to the Exalted One, saluted and sat down at one side. So seated, he said: ``Well were it for me, lord, if the Exalted One were to expound Dhamma briefly to me, so that, having heard it, I might abide resolute, alone, secluded, earnest and zealous.'' ``The doctrines, Upåli, of which you may know: `These doctrines lead one not to complete weariness (of the world), nor to dispassion, nor to ending, nor to calm, nor to knowledge, nor to awakening, nor to the cool'--regard them definitely as not Dhamma, not the discipline, not the word of the Teacher. But the doctrines of which you may know: `These doctrines lead one to complete weariness, dispassion, ending, calm, knowledge, the awakening, the cool'--regard them unreservedly as Dhamma, the discipline, the word of the Teacher.'' The Commentary to this sutta, the ``Manorathapúraùi'', explains the word ``knowledge'' as the penetration of the three characteristics of conditioned realities, namely, impermanence, dukkha and anattå. The ``awakening'' refers to the attainment of enlightenment and the ``cool'' to nibbåna. ------- footnote 1) Bhúmi is plane; in this case, plane of citta, not plane of existence. The difference between plane of citta and plane of existence will be explained in chapter 20. ---------- Nina. #65981 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 10:33 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, II, 9. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin also spoke to Alan about married life: “We are attached to many things in life but we know that it is for a very short time. You can change your mind. One will be married or single according to one's accumulations. But don't forget the development of understanding. You should not think that your attachment to a person will last as long as you live. Every moment arises because of conditions. There can be a change in the relationship because of your own accumulations or because of the other person's accumulations. Attachment brings sorrow, no matter it lasts long or short. If one really studies one's cittas one can understand that there are many degrees of attachment. Sometimes one wants something so much for oneself, even if one likes the other person. You are attached to that person but you want something for yourself. If we study our life closely we just love ourselves. Everything is just for the sake of our own feeling, our own pleasure. Nothing is permanent. This helps us to see the true nature of reality. We can gain something from each moment, even when there is a loss. Even a loss does not bring me much pain, I get something from it. It is good if one is prepared, ready to face any unpleasant situation. The understanding of the Dhamma can help one in many situations about which one would otherwise feel unhappy.” Alan asked Khun Sujin: “Should one in daily life not be very careful so that one is not caught up with pleasant things, non-Dhamma things?” Khun Sujin answered: “I think one cannot live without pleasure, and one cannot live without Dhamma. One cannot live with ignorance, having just pleasure. The wise person cannot live just for pleasure. He will live with pleasure and with understanding.” This is the Middle Way. If we are honest we know that we have accumulations for enjoyment, why deny it? But understanding can develop naturally, of all realities which appear, also of pleasure. We do not have to wait or change conditions. The Middle Way is the right way, but it is difficult. Progress is bound to be slow and because of desire one may try to flee from daily life, try to exert effort and concentrate on realities. ******** Nina. #65982 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 11:02 am Subject: processes of cittas. nilovg Dear Han, thank you for your kind post. you write: ------- N: You took the material from Dr Mehm Tin Mon, and I think there may be confusion only because of language. I use Pali, it is clearer. When I speak of 'seeing' I think of cakkhuvi~n~naa.na, also translated as eye-consciousness or seeing-consciousness. It arises only in the eye-door process and sees directly visible object, ruupaaramma.na. It is the only citta (saita, you should teach me Burmese) that performs the function of seeing, dassana kicca. It arises at the cakkhu-vatthu, the eyebase. The other cittas in the eye-door process , and the cittas in the following mind-door process also experience visible object, but each of these perform a function different from dassana kicca. They arise at the hadaya-vatthu, heart-base, not at the eye-base. Dr. Mehm means by seeing perhaps: the experience of visible object as done also by the other cittas, and he may not mean: cakkhuvi~n~naa.na. He knows Abhidhamma. -------- Nina. #65983 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 11:43 am Subject: Re: processes of cittas. scottduncan2 Dear Han and Nina, May I please come in with a question? N: "When I speak of 'seeing' I think of cakkhuvi~n~naa.na, also translated as eye-consciousness or seeing-consciousness. It arises only in the eye-door process and sees directly visible object, ruupaaramma.na..." I've wondered lately about 'visible object'. I had thought, when I considered the term, I knew what it meant. Then I noticed, one day, that I had been conceptualising 'object' and was looking at 'chair' or 'person' and thinking these things were the 'object'. (I know, too much looking and thinking but I press on). I think now, and this is the clarification I seek, that 'visible object' is merely what is seen - the whole visual field from point of focus to the edge of periphery - colour(s). Please clarify for me. Thanks, Nina. Sincerely, Scott. #65985 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas. nilovg Dear Scott, I used to have endless trouble with this subject. How far does it extend, but that is thinking, and when we think, no seeing. so we kept on asking and the only answer we got was: just what appears through the eyesense. close your eyes; it does not appear. Open your eyes: it appears. The less thinking of the actual field, the better. when we reason there will only be doubt. Then another point: and when is there mindfulness of visible object? Nobody can direct that. It depends on conditions of what object sati is aware of. But then it will surely be clearer what visible object is. Nina. Op 9-dec-2006, om 20:43 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I think now, and this is the clarification I seek, that 'visible > object' is merely what is seen - the whole visual field from point of > focus to the edge of periphery - colour(s). Please clarify for me. #65986 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 12:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ignorances nilovg Dear Connie, thank you for the quotes. They are useful after going over the many texts on ignorance in our vis. studies. I like the expression of samsaara being like a prison. "nimitta, no friend" hurts a little, and that is due to conditions, can't be helped. Nina. Op 9-dec-2006, om 16:45 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Ignorance (as non-penetration of origin) "leads to confinement in the > prison of sa"msaara, for it functions as the condition for kamma > formations" #65987 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 12:40 pm Subject: [dsg] nimitta nilovg a repost of the same, I forgot the title. Dear Scott, -------- S: I've had another listen or two: ------- N: Very good, I should do the same. --------- N: "...understanding nimitta is a supporting condition for pa~n~naa to become detached. How can one have less and less attachment to the result of study and developing. When one is thinking about oneself (like: how can I know more, understand more, or my feeling frustrated about life being a dream) it always shows clinging. Understanding nimitta helps detachment was the main point I got." S: I think this was a good sort of clarification. -------- N: Kh Sujin senses one's attitude when we ask a question. Lodewijk says, it can be so sharp. Sharp but good. We are full of self! She tries to direct one to the right track. To this moment now! Yes, the disposition is so important, so that we are ready to receive the Dhamma. Conceit may be in the way and then we cannot listen or receive the Dhamma. The Buddha knew it so well when people came to him. We have our own ideas and then we are not openminded, I notice this with myself. I can become irritated about what others say. But such an attitude is momentary, bound to change again. -------- S: This portion of the discussion started with a dichotomy: Nimitta and animitta. Detachment did seem to be a strong focus. ------- N: I am glad she emphasizes this all the time. Attachment is so much in the way. in the form of clinging to self, to my own ideas, conceit, etc. Kh. Sujin: "Pa~n~na knows everything just past" N: "No more nimitta?" Kh. Sujin: "Nibbaana only." And later, Kh. Sujin: "When vipassanaa realises - no nimitta - the understanding is complete." This contrasts her earlier statements: "When the pa~n~na cannot penetrate the arising and falling away, its nimitta", and, "As long as it arises there must be nimitta of that which has arisen." -------- N: At one moment she emphasizes one thing, at another moment another thing. One has to get used to her way of expression, and it is at times difficult to see the right meaning. Let me analyse it: Kh. Sujin: "Nibbaana only." Nibbaana does not arise and fall away, it is completely different from the conditioned dhammas that arise and fall away very fast, so fast that only a nimitta remains that can be experienced. There is a nimitta of whatever arises of each conditioned reality. --------- Kh. Sujin: "When vipassanaa realises - no nimitta - the understanding is complete." ------- She said that without awareness it is impossible to understand what a nimitta of a reality is. She said: Thus, at that stage one begins to understand that there is also an unconditioned dhamma. This makes me think of Bodhisatta Sumedha: dhammas arise and fall away, and thus for sure there must also be a dhamma that does not arise and fall away. He had wisdom, he was the Bodhisatta. But we can understand this intellectually. When pa~n~naa understands the arising and falling away, I think that it understands more clearly what a nimitta of conditioned dhammas is. Now we talk about it, and we guess, not yet clear understanding. --------- S: Sarah asked about whether nimitta 'becomes stronger.' What do you think? I think nimitta is nimitta, no stronger or weaker, until it is seen differently. ------- N: Let us wait for her to come in on this one. ----------- S: Kh. Sujin said, "that which is not real" is nimitta. This is experience now with undeveloped pa~n~na. I think it is pa~n~na which develops and eventually penetrates the arising and falling away and then no more nimitta. ------ N: I get it a little different. She said: when something arises there must be a characteristic and that is nimitta. In other words: understanding of any characteristic that appears can be developed. No nimitta: only nibbana does not have a nimitta. 'Nimitta not real': in this sense that the reality has fallen away and what remains is the sign of it. That sign is somehow a characteristic of the reality that has just fallen away. How otherwise could we develop insight? But the Buddha did show the way. ******* Nina. #65988 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 1:00 pm Subject: Anatta: pathways to understanding matheesha333 Hi Nina, everyone.. You were keen on my speech to the London Buddhist Vihar, so I typed this out for you. I hope you find it useful. with metta ------------------------------------------------- Anatta: Pathways to understanding This is a very important and interesting concept in Buddhism, as you all know. It is part of the insight gained when on the noble eightfold path. Specifically it is part of the tilakkhana, or the 3 characteristics of phenomena. That is anicca, dukkha and anatta. It is also linked to the important concept of sakkaya-ditti or self view. Understanding that there is no self, means that such a person will not have a self view or view anything in the mind and body as self. Now, sakkaya-ditti as you might know is one of the fetters which are abandoned when one becomes a sotapanna or stream-entrant. So to begin with, it is important to get some understanding of why it is said there is no self. We will begin by looking at simple ways of understanding it and work our way towards more complex ways of understanding it. I will also include aspects from psychiatry and psychotherapy to illustrate it further. Control Lets us look at this body and this mind. Can we tell this body not to age? Can we tell it not get sick? No. It does what it wants and we have no control over it. Can we tell this mind not to get upset when something bad happens. Can we tell our moods not to keep changing all the time. We cannot. Again the mind also seems out of our control. If the mind or the body was Me, then we should have complete control over it. Yet we don't. This tells us a lot about this false idea that our bodies or minds are our selves. We have incomplete control over it. We have incomplete control over our surroundings as well. Yet we do not consider say a stream of water to be the self, just because we can alter it's path, for example. Yet we do just that with this body and mind. Unchanging self You might say well …I have a body –so the self exists. Or I have a mind, so the self exists. I have likes and dislikes, I have a personality. Doesn't all this point towards a self? Lets look at our bodies. The material in this body, every atom gets replaced ever 5 years or so. 98% of the body gets replaced within 1 year. The skin every month. The liver in 6 weeks. So if it is not the matter, then is it the shape. No, -that is continually changing. We don't have the same shape that we did as a 10 yr old. It has gradually changed to our shape now. So even as we speak the shape is changing. So there is no one thing that we can hold on to as a self in our bodies. What about our minds? Do we have the same likes and dislikes we had as a 10yr old? No -they have also been changing gradually. Moment to moment the mind changes very rapidly. Thoughts come and go, emotions change. The body also changes rapidly as the atoms spin. The same combinations of atoms will never be repeated ever again. So we are looking at nothing but change. There is nothing you can pinpoint and say that this is a self. The Soul So what about a soul then. Could there be something there which we cannot experience behind this body and mind? Well, what is it that we call the self? Is it the known likes and dislikes and preferences or unknown unheard ones? Is it the known body that we call the self or an unknown one? The answer is clear. In practice what we call the self is what we can sense, not what we cant sense. So to dream of something we don't experience at all as existing is meaningless and it is certainly not what we normally consider the self. What we normally consider the self is the mind and the body. We can see that they are not permanent and there is no self to be found there. Examples from psychotherapy and psychiatry The single self We can look at some examples from psychiatry and psychotherapy. Dr.Ryle a very famous man in these circles developed this theory of self states. He stated that when we interact with someone, depending on who it is, we get into different roles – or self states. That is when we are with a friend we are one type of person. When we are with our parents we behave differently, think differently. When we are with our partners we are again different. We might even hold our bodies differently or talk differently. So it seems that depending on the person we are interacting with we `become' different people. So which of those self states is the real you? If you pick one – are the others not you? You can't pick all of them because all of them are different from each other. The only conclusion is that there is no self. Further evidence comes from multiple personality states, where one person seems to completely switch personalities with different names. Producing a self There is another theory of internal working models, by Dr.Fonagy, another giant in the field of psychotherapy. He says that we have the ability to create perfect working models of people in our minds. There was a recent Channel 4 programme on this which showed a children's novelist setting out to write a story. She created this character of a giant, complete with all his characteristics in her mind. She said that it felt as if the giant was writing the story through her rather than her writing the story because in someways this giant hade come alive in her mind. This was suggested to be one mechanism through which some people hear god for example. They have been thinking about God and speaking about God so much that they create an internal working model. The beauty of these models are that they can actually give instructions and guide you in ways you might not have thought of yourself! So the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes can be helpful. But again this shows that if our minds can create other people, it can very easily create us. Sense of self So what about this sense of a person that we have? We have a feeling that `I' am inside `me'. Depersonalisation is an interesting phenomena in psychiatry which we can loose our sense of self. The person feels that there is no self. This can happen to normal people in extreme circumstances like extreme tiredness or stress. So this shows that this feeling that there is a person inside of me doesn't always happen and changes. So this again points towards that there is no self. Self as Concept So moving away from psychiatry lets look at another example. Consider a longish piece of wood and a flat piece of wood. Now lets take 4 pieces of longish wood and attach them to the flat piece of wood, only on one side though. What do you have? You have a little table! What happened there?! Suddenly it was not pieces of wood anymore, it was a table. Suddenly it had a name, it had a purpose, it might have even had some value, you know what to do with it. What happened? The raw matter had not changed. It is still pieces of wood. What happened was that we added something to that wood, from our minds and imagination. This just goes to show you how much of our experience is mind created; from our own imagination. So what was created new there was not something magic coming into existence, but a concept. This was the concept of the table. That concept was linked to so many values and ideas about it. Now, the idea of Self is also similar. It is more than the flesh,blood and mind that we are. We have given it so much more from our own imagination. We have added to our experience of reality. We have dreamt up a being which sits inside of us. There used to be this idea of a homunculous which sits inside our brain, a little man controlling our every move. Of course now we know that no such thing exists, but in some senses that was a personification of that concept of a being within us. But now we know that no such thing exists, it is all in our mind and body and mind is enough. There's no need to add something more to that. In short, the idea that there is a being within us is just a concept. It doesn't really exist. The singularity of self The concept of self is also a simplification of what really is there. There is no one thing as a self, but there are multiple components at work here. The body is made up of so many different parts and organs. The mind is also similarly made up of different components, like vedana (feelings), Sanna (concepts), sankhara (mental fabrications), and vinnana (consciousness). To think of this one self, is to distort this reality of multiple parts of us; a unification; and in this distortion it becomes easier to start thinking of one being. But if we see the multiple parts working away inside us, doing their own thing, we begin to understand that there is no one self to be seen. It is like seeing a tv picture for the first time. We might think that there is a person inside the box. But if we look closer we see that it is just coloured dots changing constantly. These multiple coloured dots give us the illusion of single entity. But in actuality it is multiple particles making up this unity. We are also like that. We are also made up nama and rupa components arising and passing away at great speed. Or if you like, we are atoms spinning at great speeds or thoughts eternally changing. These are like the dots flashing in and out of existence eternally changing. Ultimately it is only an illusion. There is no solidity there. Constant change. It is at this point we let go of any idea of a self. Volition Lets also look at volition. Some people say that since we can do things intentionally there must be self. Lets consider an example. Someone rings the doorbell. You are inside and you hear it. You get up from your seat and go and answer the doorbell. So this was you doing what you wanted, choosing to answer the doorbell, isn't it? Well, however, if we closely look at what happened it becomes much more interesting. You heard the doorbell ring. Then you had thought of getting up and answering it. Then you got up and answered the doorbell. If you look at each of these events, this is a string of causes and effects. One thing giving rise to the next. Without hearing the doorbell the thought would not arise to answer it, without the thought of getting upto answer it you would not have gotten up, and no doorbell would have been answered. So it is simply one cause giving rise to an effect. That in turn becomes a cause for the next effect to arise. So was there a `you' there? There was no need for a `you' or controlling being in their. Remember we spoke of multiple parts doing their own thing. This was just how those multiple parts give rise to each other and in their cause and effect interaction, something happens. A we, since we can't see the parts acting, giving rise to one after the other, in a string of cause and effect, in an automatic way, we are fooled into believing that there is a man inside the tv set. One thing arose, as you saw, because something else existed before that, which gave rise to it. That in turn gave rise to something else. Without the cause there would be no effect. If we are to consider any of the thoughts or actions as the self it is unrealistic because the existence of those things were contingent upon something else. So there is nothing here which can stand on it's own and say it exists in it's own right. There is only causally arisen phenomena here. When there is no cause, there is no effect. Choice The thought (choice) of answering the doorbell as opposed to not answering the doorbell is also based on cause and effect. The thought which arose now is conditioned by memories and experiences from the past which informs you that answering the doorbell is what you should do when you hear the doorbell. However if someone had a bad experience from answering the doorbell the thought might arise not to answer it. So this again shows that if one cause is there it gives rise to a particular effect. If it is not there it doesn't give rise to that effect. This shows the choice is also predetermined and we don't really have a choice, and that there is no one making a choice. The path to understanding How do we start seeing this in ourselves? How do we see the dots, the cause and effect mechanisms? It becomes clear that in order to see all these very subtle things we need to have a very clear, calm mind. It is a bit like if we want to see beautiful little fish in a stream, the stream has to be calm. It cannot be turbulent or muddy or overgrown with weeds. This is where the noble eightfold path comes in. It can be summarised into Sila (virtue), Samadhi (calm or one- pointedness), and Panna (insight). Each of these set the background for the next one to arise. It is not possible to have good Samadhi if you are breaking the precepts all the time. Imagine the mind of a murderer running from the police or something who is afraid he will get caught for stealing something or being with someone else's spouse. There is no calm there. So it becomes important to keep the precepts and often in the description of Sila, it is said that it gives rise to calm. This is another purpose of Sila, apart from just morality. Calm can be developed through various meditations like Anapanasathi (mindfulness-of-breath) or Metta (loving-kindness) meditation. These help to focus the mind and stop it from being distracted from this and that. When the habit of continuously running from this to that ceases, it is a calm mind. It is a clear mind. It is in the present moment. It is aware and knows what is happening. When it can do that we can be aware of everything that goes on in our minds and bodies. We can see these components of the body and the mind arising and passing away moment to moment through the practice of vipassana or insight meditation. We can see that there is impermanence. When we see that there is nothing but this dance of dots flashing in and out of existence, that everything is an illusion and not very solid we understand that it is dukkha, unsatisfactory. We also see the impermanence and the cause and effect mechanisms working. Everything is automatic, there is no need for a being there. We see that there is no self, anatta. With continued mindfulness of this meaningless dance of the dhammas there comes a point where consciousness chooses to disengage with what is experienced through the 6 doors. All craving for it extinguished for a moment. The experience and continued insight of impermanance and dukkha is so much that it just withdraws. It breaks past fetters which normally keep giving rise to phenomena, due to the depth of insight. Like throwing a penny through a slot a mile away, there is release so rare in samsara. Other ways that insight can be developed, is through reading and listening. This can form a foundation for a more complete understanding through vipassana. Some people may even gain complete understanding through this method alone if conditions permit. Cause of self view I believe that the cause of this self view is the idea of belonging. The idea of something being `mine'. It becomes easy to understand that this idea of ownership becomes congealed when applied for years on end, indeed lifetimes on end, to the mind and the body. We start seeing the mind and body not only as mine, but as myself. Thinking that something is `mine' is driven by craving. A craving for something. It is also driven by ignorance –that there is such a thing as me or mine. Summary So if we look at this self view, we see that 1) there is a self view which is false 2) it has a cause – craving ..and ignorance as well 3) there is an abandonment of the self view 4) and the path to that is the noble eightfold path. -------------------------------- #65989 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 1:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] processes of cittas. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. When you use Pali words I understand it very clearly. Yes, I find dassana-kicca in kicca sangaha. Respectfully, Han #65990 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta: pathways to understanding hantun1 Dear matheesha, Thank you very much and congratulations for your excellent speech given at the London Buddhist Vihar. It is indeed very useful. Now, there must be questions from the audience at the end of your speech. When you have time, I will be grateful to know what they asked and how you had answered. Respectfully, Han --- matheesha wrote: > Hi Nina, everyone.. > > You were keen on my speech to the London Buddhist > Vihar, so I typed > this out for you. I hope you find it useful. > > with metta #65991 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 4:55 pm Subject: Re: processes of cittas. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply: N: "I used to have endless trouble with this subject. How far does it extend, but that is thinking, and when we think, no seeing. so we kept on asking and the only answer we got was: just what appears through the eyesense. close your eyes; it does not appear. Open your eyes: it appears." I think I know what this means. N: "The less thinking of the actual field, the better. when we reason there will only be doubt. Then another point: and when is there mindfulness of visible object? Nobody can direct that. It depends on conditions of what object sati is aware of. But then it will surely be clearer what visible object is." Less thinking. Just seeing. And it will be clear, as you say. Scott. #65992 From: connie Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 6:07 pm Subject: pentad of contact nichiconn Dear Azita? there was a question about contact in one of the latest talks... BB's Net, Exegesis p.199; of the Round << CY: ...the pentad of contact* originates in and converges upon the sense faculties, and these latter are its cause; thus they are called 'bases'. Here, the bases of contact, etc. are mentioned in order to show the succession of conditions, making contact the starting point and arranging the teaching under the heading of contact, iaw the method of the following passage: "Dependent on the eye and visible forms, eye-consciousness arieses. The meeting of the three is contact," etc. (S.II.5.4). *n1: Phassapa~ncamakaa dhammaa: consciousness, feeling, preception, volition, and contact. The name derives from the last member. >> hope you know what i'm talking about. and who you are. peace, connie #65993 From: connie Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 6:07 pm Subject: ignorances nichiconn Nina: "nimitta, no friend" hurts a little, and that is due to conditions, can't be helped. connie quotes Net, p198: << ...among which contact is the chief. "The strength of the condition": feeling sometimes arises without the eye-base, etc., and without some of its concomitant dhammas, but it can never arise without contact; hence contact is a strong cause for feeling. For if a sense object is within range, but the act of consciousness does not contact the object, the latter will not become an object condition (aaramma.napaccaya) for consciousness. Thus contact is a special condition for all the concomitant dhammas (in an act of consciousness). Hence when the Exalted One analyzed an act of consciousness (in the Dhammasa"nga.nii), he educed contact first. But it is the foundation especially for feeling. >> which is all "painful" ... down to the new toilet paper - one of the older talks. not getting what we want and not wanting what we get. btw, i really appreciated your visit the other night... and hope you've found your missing tooth! well, you might remember i was feverish. not to mention clingish. i remain, your dreamer. #65994 From: connie Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 6:07 pm Subject: processes of cittas. nichiconn Dear Han, Nina, also, there is a Dr. Mehm Tin Mon abhidhamma series of lectures found on http://www.dhammadownload.com/AudioInEnglish.htm peace, connie #65995 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 7:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] processes of cittas. hantun1 Dear Connie, Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. With metta and respect, Han > http://www.dhammadownload.com/AudioInEnglish.htm #65996 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 7:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Answers to Q. Cetasikas. Question (iv) (v) hantun1 Dear Nina, Question (iv) When is there thinking with akusala citta? > > H: Answer: Thinking with akusala citta usually occurs when there is just thinking of concepts, without the awareness of naam and ruupa that presents itself, one at a time. ---------- > N: When the objective is not dana, sila or mental development thinking is with akusala citta. We can think with metta of a person, or with generosity of a thing that we are going to give away, thus, we can think of concepts with kusala citta. But, as you say, usually we think with akusala citta of concepts. Anyway, there are so many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas. Without the Dhamma we would never, never have known this. ---------- Han: Very useful comments. I have nothing more to add. ********** Question (v) What is the object of understanding all through the development of the different stages of insight? > > H: Answer: The objects of understanding all through the development of the different stages of insight are naama and ruupa, that presents itself, one at a time. ------------- > N: very good. The object is the same but understanding of it grows. ------------ Han: I like what you said, “The object is the same but understanding of it grows.” Respectfully, Han #65997 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 7:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Answers to Q. Cetasikas. Question (vi) hantun1 Dear Nina, Question (vi) Can aversion be the object of insight in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained? > > H: Answer: Aversion can be an object of “mindfulness” in the gradual process of development of understanding, but aversion cannot be the object of “insight” in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained. Only one of the three characteristics of realities (naama and ruupa) can be the object of insight, to be penetrated by paññå accompanying the mahå-kusala cittas before the “change of lineage” (gotrabhu citta) arises in magga viithi. Then, the object becomes Nibbana for gotrabhu citta, magga citta and phala citta in the same viithi process. ---------------- > N: Yes, aversion can be the object of the maha-kusala cittas arising in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained. Why? Because it can be seen as impermanent, dukkha, anatta. When we speak about the three characteristics, these are always the characteristic *of* a dhamma that presents itself, any dhamma, even lobha or dosa. Enlightenment occurs in daily life. Thus, the characteristic of anatta, etc. is never separated from a dhamma that naturally presents itself because of the appropriate conditions. When we consider this, we understand the whole development of insight, up to enlightenment, occurs in daily life. We are angry and attached, but these are cetasikas, realities and their characteristics can be penetrated deeper and deeper. --------------- Han: Yes, you also mentioned this point with regard to Questions and Answers on Understanding/pa~n~naa (message 65289). You said that a characteristic is always a characteristic of a dhamma, and until the gotrabhu, the object is any dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. It can even be lobha or dosa! But it is seen with developed wisdom, as a conditioned dhamma that is impermanent, etc. According to this, any akusala cetasika can be an object of the maha-kusala cittas arising in the process of cittas during which enlightenment is attained, as long as they are seen as impermanent, dukkha or anatta. You may be right, but for me, it is still difficult to appreciate that an akusala cetasika can be an object for the maha-kusala cittas in the process of magga viithi. I would not have difficulty to appreciate an akusala cetasika as an object of maha-kusala cittas in the process of any other viithi prior to magga viithi. But during the ultimate magga viithi it is difficult to appreciate. I would have assumed that a meditator who is just about to be enlightened would not have any such akusala cetasikas as lobha, dosa or aversion, during the last viithi process as a puthujjana. I will keep on thinking about this. Anyway, thank you very much for your very useful and valuable comments. Respectfully, Han #65998 From: Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 7:48 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] processes of cittas. jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... Dear Nina, Appreciate your comments, What ever giving is "dana" and merits are certain, but there is very little if such dana is given seeking pride, ego, popularity, wealth etc. Also dana should be given out of honest earnings, (samma Kammantha) Akusals comes under those dana of Alchohol, weapons, sex articles, body displays etc, I heard. may you blessed with triple gems ! jm #65999 From: "Raghunath Awachar" Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 9:10 pm Subject: vipassana pratice raghunath_aw... Hi I want to know in detais about vipassana its origin , reference and the way to practise it. Can I get the information in simple way? regards ruawachar