#66000 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 9:27 pm Subject: elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka ken_aitch Hi Larry, In my opinion we should avoid unnecessary complications. Namas experience an object, and rupas don't experience anything. It's as simple as that. Let's not bring in theories of subject/object duality /non-duality and that sort of thing. They are not relevant in Theravada. ---------------------- L: > No subject/object relationship _in_ experience and the consciousness of visible data is what we usually erroneously call the visible data rupa. There is some support for this view in the Visuddhimagga: Vism.XV,41: "Individually, however, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a drum, the visible-data element as the drumstick, and the eye-consciousness element as the sound. Likewise, the eye element should be regarded as the surface of a looking-glass, the visible-data element as the face, and the eye-consciousness element as the image of the face..." L: In other words the appearance of this email is the, presumably accurate, reflection of the actual visible data of the email. Rupa is not really an element of experience. ------------------------- No, I am sure visible rupa is the object visual experience (seeing consciousness) and, therefore, it is an element of a moment of seeing. -------------------------------------- L: > Experience is consciousness only. -------------------------------------- But there needs to be an object of seeing. 'No show without Punch!' ---------------------------------------------------------- L: > Also, objects are what consciousness reacts to. Experience is a series of reactions, not a series of objects. "Object" is a concept only. It is not *now*. ---------------------------------------------------------- You might be thinking too hard. :-) I prefer the way it is explained in the Abhidhamma. Ken H #66001 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 10:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka lbidd2 Hi Ken, K: "In my opinion we should avoid unnecessary complications. Namas experience an object, and rupas don't experience anything." L: Except nibbana. But whatever makes sense to you is fine. The Buddha explained the dhamma in many ways. Larry #66002 From: "matt roke" Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 10:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling mattroke Hi Jon, Jon wrote: >Just to pursue this line of thinking a little further, I think you would >also say a sotapanna could not have dosa with another being as object. >Would that be correct? There can be accumulations for sotapannas to have dose (unhappiness) from the loss of someone dear and I think they could have dosa (dislike) towards someone because of accumulations. In both cases sotapannas know that these states are conditioned dhammas and would not cling to them as me or mine and in the latter case the dosa would not culminate in the intention to kill or the act of killing. ========================================== >Matt: From my studies I can conceptionally appreciate that dhammas are >impermanent and that sotapannas, when they have insight into dhamma >moments, understand that there is no *me and mine* and so they cannot kill >or have the intention to hurt someone. >Jon: I notice you say here 'when they have insight into dhamma moments'. As >we know, the javana citta of the sotapannas' is not necessarily with >insight. Well actually, I do not know that the javana citta of the sotapannas' is not necessarily with insight. I think that the Abhiddhama is an amazing explanation of how nama and rupa works, and it is very valuable for understanding what we take for self and the world, however, a great deal of what is explained in the Abhiddhama I do not experience and I certainly do not know the javana citta of the sotapannas'. I am not saying that what is written is not the way it is, I would rather work with what I know to be true rather than what is a concept. Concepts may be right or wrong, whereas realities are neither right nor wrong, they are what they are. The views I put forward come from my understanding of what is real not from concepts I can’t prove. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >What is the significance of the qualification about 'when they have >insight'? When panna penetrates the real nature of dhamma as being impermanent, dukka and no self then sotapannas understand that there are only dhammas which do not stay and they can NEVER AGAIN take concepts to be real and they will ALWAYS understand that there is no *me and mine*. This is what I meant when I said that sotapanna *have insight into dhamma moments*. Please excuse my poor writing skills and lack of knowledge regarding certain aspects of the Dhamma. ========================================== >Another thing we read about the sotapanna is that, in addition to not >acting in breach of the precepts, he/she is also incapable of doing any act >that could result in rebirth in a lower realm. Do you see this also as >being attributable to the eradication of wrong view of self rather than, >for example, the eradication of gross forms of lobha and dosa? Just trying >to understand your reasoning about 'no wrong view of self therefore no >intention to kill or harm'. I think the panna that eradicates wrong view of self also eradicates gross forms of lobha and dosa. Sotapannas know that there is a moment of seeing that arises and falls away and that that moment of seeing can’t be owned, it belongs to no one and it is not self. And so it is for all dhamma moments. If dhamma moments don’t stay, can’t be held onto, can’t be owned and have no self then certainly concepts can’t be owned and can’t be taken to be self or other people. A sotapanna may have lobha following a sense experience, but they can’t steal something they know is only dhammas that do not stay and can’t be owned? In the case where dosa may follow a sense experience, how could a sotapanna then kill dhammas that are falling away or a concept of a person that is not real. It is this clear comprehension of dhamma moments for what they are and what concepts are not that eradicates gross forms of lobha and dosa, which goes hand in hand with the understanding of no self. Matt #66003 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta: pathways to understanding matheesha333 Hi Han Tun, Thank you. I am going to make it today actually! I will let you know of any discussion. Someone pointed out to me that I am going too much towards ucchedavada in my speech. So I will include a little bit on that as well. with metta Matheesha #66004 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 11:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka jonoabb Hi Antony Many thanks for raising the subject of 'gratitude'. I've enjoyed reading the materials that have been quoted in the discussion so far. Just going back to your original post, I'd like to add something to your summary of the concepts of kamma-vipaka, compassion and gratitude. Antony Woods wrote: > Dear Sarah, Christine and all, > > I am working to clarify the relationship between the concept of kamma- > vipaka, which seems to say that our history of receiving compassion > from others is just the results of our own "personal" past kusala > kamma, versus the teaching on Kata~n~nutaa (gratitude), which says > that we were born utterly helpless and have survived to adulthood > through the "unpurchased" compassion of our parents. I think you see a possible inconsistency or confusion between the two concepts, and I'm wondering if it has to do with the way the two concepts are stated. Kamma-vipaka, as you know, is the law of cause and result. It refers to cause and result within the same mind-stream. Now in the case of "receiving compassion from others", it's important to identify exactly what the vipaka is. Let's say compassion arises in the consciousness of person A on account of the perceived suffering of person B, prompting A to take some action to alleviate B's suffering. It is not A's compassion that is the vipaka of B. Rather, it is how A's action is experienced by B through one or more of the 5 sense-doors that is B's vipaka. B's suffering may or may not be alleviated by A's actions, and this will depend in part on B's past kamma (B's suffering may even increase). So being the object of compassion does not necessarily mean receiving good vipaka; there is no direct relationship or connection between the two. (Of course, speaking generally and conventionally, we may say that it is good fortune (vipaka) to be the object of others' compassion.) As regards gratitude, I think it's true to say (as you do) that we were born utterly helpless and survived the first few years of our lives thanks to the efforts our parents. To what extent our parents' actions were motivated by the kusala factor of compassion, and to what extent by attachment, etc, is another matter. Regardless of that we are highly indebted to our parents, and also to others who have helped us along in life. Any kusala moment of appreciating this would be gratitude. Regarding the quote from AN: "Two sorts of people are hard to find in the world: one who first does (something kind or helpful), and one who is grateful and recognizes (that kindness)." I see this recognition of others' kindness as something that may occur in our ordinary daily life. Note that the quote is not limited to instances where the kindness is done by someone with whom we are in a special relationship (e.g., parents or guardians), nor to instances where we ourselves are the beneficiary of the kindness -- it applies equally when the kindness or helpfulness is towards a third person. So any kindness by one person towards another can be a condition for kusala gratitude on our part. It is not given here as something we deliberately call to mind to reflect upon, as a kind of 'practice'. > I suspect that the two teachings are "skillful means". Kamma-vipaka > is used to cultivate upekkha (even-mindedness), whilst gratitude is > related to mudita (appreciative joy). Upekkha is always taught in the > context of the other three Brahmaviharas (metta (friendliness), > karuna (compassion), mudita). Upekkha isn't a sense of "I told you > so" which would mean that one's metta has slipped (see wildmind.org) > ++++ > Background reading (one paragraph): > In his book on the Maha Mangala Sutta, Dr R.L.Soni wrote: > "Kata~n~nutaa: gratitude. Literally this is "knowing what has been > done," that is, remembering what others have done for oneself. The > Buddha has said: "Two sorts of people are hard to find in the world: > one who first does (something kind or helpful), and one who is > grateful and recognizes (that kindness)." ... > > We see here that both kamma-vipaka and Kata~n~nutaa are based on what > has been done (actions). The confusion is: "done by whom?". > As you will gather from what I've said above, I don't think there's really any confusion between the two. Jon #66005 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 9, 2006 11:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipallaasas and sotaapanna jonoabb Hi Joop (and Matt) I notice you've included in your list of threads that are currently discussing "what it's like to be a sotapanna" the thread between Matt and me. I can assure you that I don't our discussion as being about what it's like to be a sotapanna (and I think Matt would say the same). The question Matt and I are discussing is: to what extent is having a wrong view of self a necessary factor in forming the unwholesome intention to kill or cause harm to another living being? Matt's view is that there can be no intention to kill in the absence of a wrong view of self (and that this explains why it is said in the texts that a sotapanna is incapable of any intentional killing or causing of bodily harm). When stated this way, would you agree that it's not about being a sotapanna? Perhaps you have some views of your own on the point that you'd like to share? Jon PS I haven't checked the other threads in your list, but I suspect that many or most of them are likewise not really about what it's like to be a sotapanna, but about issues that relate directly to our own daily lives. Joop wrote: > J: > Why so many times is there a discussion in DSG about the > question how > > it is to be a sotapanna (in my words: a starting awakened) ???? > > ... > DSG-THREADS ABOUT BEING A SOTAPANNA: > Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling > Heedlessness of sotaapanna. > Vipallaasas and sotaapanna > Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling > Cetasikas' study corner 591- The Stages of Insight(m) > A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo > Neither Dear nor Undear > Doubt of a sotaapanna. > #66006 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta: pathways to understanding hantun1 Dear Matheesha, Thank you very much. I am looking forward to it. Respectfully, Han #66007 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:01 am Subject: Highest Faith ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: Well-placed Faith leads to the Supreme State! In so far as there are beings without feet, with two feet or with four feet, or with many feet, with form or formless, conscious or unconscious, or neither-conscious-nor-unconscious, of all these the Tathagata is the highest, Arahat, a Perfectly Self-Awakened One... Whoever has faith in the Buddha, has faith in what is truly highest! For those who have faith in the highest, the highest is the result... In so far as there are conditioned states, the Noble 8-fold Way is truly the highest. Whoever has faith in this noble 8-fold Way, has faith in what is highest! For those who have faith in the highest, the highest will be the result. In so far as there are states, whether constructed or unconstructed, dispassion, stilling, ceasing is truly the highest of these states, that is Nibbana... Whoever has faith in this State, has faith in what is highest! For those who have faith in the highest, the highest will be the result... In so far as there are communities, companies and groups, the community of the Disciples of the Buddha is truly the highest of these, an unsurpassed Field of Merit. Whoever has faith in the Sangha, has faith in what is highest! Those who have faith in the highest, will experience the highest... The Gradual Sayings. Anguttara Nikaya AN II 34 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #66008 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Books on Dhamma sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, --- ken_aitch wrote: > So when visible object has arisen, and a monk directly knows its > anatta characteristic, do we say the arammana is anatta or do we say > it is visible object? Does the monk at that moment just know anatta or > does > he know "visible object has the characteristic, anatta?" .... S: The latter -the anatta characteristic of visible object. In other words, visible object (or whatever dhamma) remains the object of satipatthana (of whatever level), but it's nature is known more and more precisiely as it is. The visible object (and other dhammas) are clearly seen as elements which are not 'owned' and cannot be controlled in anyway. Like even now, if visible object appears, it can be seen as just that which is seen - a mere rupa, not a self or a thing. I'm sure you already appreciate this and it's just a matter of the lingo. Metta, Sarah p.s Surfers (like everyone else) in Hong Kong are right up with the latest trends. So no one blinks when a surfer now gets out his waterproof mobile while waiting for a wave or the latest - a waterproof i-pod to listen to music whilst catching that wave. Perhaps you could try listening to the nimitta discussions whilst waiting for or catching your wave:-). On second thoughts, maybe people like us who are already injury-prone had better stick to one task at a time. ========= #66009 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:01 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 605- Wholesome Deeds(b) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd We would like to have kusala citta more often but akusala cittas are bound to arise so long as the latent tendencies to akusala have not been eradicated. The eradication of defilements is the goal of the Buddha’s teachings and this can be realized through the development of insight. Right understanding should be developed together with all other good qualities. The Buddha, when he was still a Bodhisatta, developed right understanding together with all other kinds of wholesomeness, he developed the wholesome qualities which are the “perfections” (paråmis)(1), during innumerable lives so that in his last life he could attain Buddhahood. This reminds us not to neglect the development of any kind of kusala for which there is an opportunity. *** 1) The perfections of generosity, síla, renunciation, wisdom, energy, patience, truthfulness, determination, loving kindness and equanimity. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66010 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: awareness and thinking jonoabb Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear All, > > 2006-02-15A-a is a very good nimitta of a discussion! > > Scott. > For those of you accessing the discussions direct from the dsg.org website, that's the link number (1) under '15 February, morning session' in Week 2 of the Bangkok, February 2006 series (just in case it's not obvious from the file name!). Jon #66011 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:43 am Subject: functions of citta nilovg Hi Howard (and Han), I would like to add something about functions. I can understand that Howard also thinks of the danger of little agents, little selves, when hearing about cittas performing functions. So I reflected more on functions. How this is taken depends on the disposition of the listener. I wrote before to Han: seeing-consciousness arises > only in the eye-door process and sees directly > visible object, > ruupaaramma.na. It is the only citta that performs the function of seeing, > dassana kicca. It > arises at the cakkhu-vatthu, the eyebase. > The other cittas in the eye-door process , and the > cittas in the > following mind-door process also experience visible > object, but each > of these perform a function different from dassana > kicca. They arise > at the hadaya-vatthu, heart-base, not at the > eye-base. ------- The notion of function prevents us from believing that there is a long moment of seeing. In reality there are different cittas, some of them vipaakacittas that each perform their own function while they experience the object, and in the same sense-door process there are javanacittas that perform the function of javana, either with kusala citta or with akusala citta, and in the following mind-door process there are again javanacittas after the mind-door adverting- consciousness. All these functions are performed very rapidly, in a moment. Classifying in different ways is helpful. When seeing arises it is due to the association of visible opject impinging on the eyebase. There are the aayatanas of visible object, eyesense and the mindbase (manaayatana, in this case seeing). In order to chase away any notion of actor or possessor, the Dhatukatha can help. Here all conditioned realities are classified as khandhas, and all realities are classified as aayatanas and dhaatus. We read in the Intro: The last sentence should not be taken in a substantialistic sense. Conditioned realities are fleeting. Also, mere classification will not help, they point to the present moment where they actually occur. They can be investigated with understanding and mindfulness. Nina. #66012 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Ken & Larry - You two are discussing something of interest to me. You are expessing two different views, and on this topic, my perspective is yet a third view. I'll add a couple comments in context below: In a message dated 12/10/06 12:29:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > L: In other words the appearance of this email is the, presumably > accurate, reflection of the actual visible data of the email. Rupa is > not really an element of experience. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Here, you, Larry, I believe are expressing the following position: In seeing, three elements are involved (in addition to eye door and perhaps other phenomena): 1) Eye consciousness, 2) the visible object, "out there", a rupa - what I would call a hypothesized "external rupa", and 3) the visual element of experience, "in here" that you believe is in some sense an accurate refection of the "external" rupa - what I would call in this case an "internal rupa" or eye-door "sensation". ----------------------------------------- > ------------------------- > > No, I am sure visible rupa is the object visual experience (seeing > consciousness) and, therefore, it is an element of a moment of seeing. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Here, you, Ken, I believe, are expressing the following position: In seeing, two elements are involved (in addition to eye door and perhaps other phenomena): 1) Eye conciousness, and 2) the visible object "out there", a rupa which, though external, is, itself, is the content of conscousness, requiring no "internal" reflection, but seen directly. ------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------- > L: >Experience is consciousness only. > -------------------------------------- > > But there needs to be an object of seeing. 'No show without Punch!' --------------------------------------------- Howard: Here it seems to me that you, Larry, deny an objective pole to the experiential event, and, you, Ken, assert its necessity. On this issue, I'm closer to you, Ken, though we probably differ on the matter of the independence of the object from the seeing of it, an independence I deny. ------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > L: >Also, objects are what consciousness reacts to. Experience is a > series of reactions, not a series of objects. "Object" is a concept > only. It is not *now*. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > You might be thinking too hard. :-) I prefer the way it is explained > in the Abhidhamma. ------------------------------------------ Howard: My (third) position is the following: In seeing, two elements are involved (in addition to eye door and perhaps other phenomena): 1) Eye conciousness, and 2) the visual element of experience "in here", the visible object, a rupa which, itself, is the actual content of conscousness, requiring no "external" entity to reflect, but seen directly. As for whether or not there exists an additional "external" rupa that is "reflected" by the directly cognized "internal" visual sensation, that is in principle untestable and unknowable. Thus, I countenance sights as elements of experience, but deny sights as things that may arise and cease outside of visual experience. I find the notion of "unseen sight" incoherent. Similarly, I countenance itches as elements of experience, but deny "external rupas" that are itches and of which itch sensations are "reflections". Again, I find the notion of "unfelt" itch as incoherent. For me, sights and itches are sensations - elements of experience and contents/objects of consciousness that exist only in dependence on conciousness, though are distinguishable from the consciousness operation. ------------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ===================== With metta, Howard #66013 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nimitta sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Nina), You recommended 2006-02-15A-a for more good nimitta discussion. (Btw, A=a.m and P=p.m in a day). I just listened again to the track. --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Nina (and other nimitta afficianados), > > I've had another listen or two: > > N: "...understanding nimitta is a supporting condiiton for pa~n~naa > to become detached. How can one have less and less attachment to the > result of study and developing. When one is thinking about oneself > (like: how can I know more, understand more, or my feeling frustrated > about life being a dream) it always shows clinging. Understanding > nimitta helps detachment was the main point I got." > > I think this was a good sort of clarification. .... S: I also scribbled down as I listened, her emphasis on: - 'no 'I', just understanding which understands' - 'not just the matter of reading or hearing, but understanding reality on and on' - 'just like a dream, passing on and on' - 'panna can know and become detached' - 'panna becomes more and more precise to be detached' - 'the most important thing is how can one have less and less attachment to the result of studying and developing' - 'instead of thinking about dhamma to have better understanding, we're thinking about ourselves - frustration and things. What about understanding? That's all and the other realities have arisen continuously all the time. It always shows clinging so much when one's thinking of oneself in dhamma [study] or whatever.' .... > This portion of the discussion started with a dichotomy: Nimitta and > animitta. Detachment did seem to be a strong focus. .... S: Without detachment towards what is conditioned at this moment, there won't be any development of understanding as I see it. Alobha - the opposite of lobha. .... > > Kh. Sujin: "Pa~n~na knows everything just past" > N: "No more nimitta?" > Kh. Sujin: "Nibbaana only." ... S: I can't quite make out the first sentence out of context... ... > > And later, Kh. Sujin: "When vipassanaa realises - no nimitta - the > understanding is complete." ... S: Is she referring to lokuttara cittas here - again, not sure of the context. ... > This contrasts her earlier statements: "When the pa~n~na cannot > penetrate the arising and falling away, its nimitta", and, "As long as > it arises there must be nimitta of that which has arisen." ... S: Yes, this is clear. .... > > Sarah asked about whether nimitta 'becomes stronger.' .... S: I listened for this, but didn't hear it. I was curious about the context as it sounds a strange question and I don't recall it:-/ The object (characteristic) becomes more and more apparent or appears sharper due to increased wisdom. In fact the nimitta or characteristic doesn't change - it's merely seen more precisely for what it is, like a photo through a sharper/stronger lens. .... >What do you > think? I think nimitta is nimitta, no stronger or weaker, until it is > seen differently. ... S: Yes, according to whether it's experienced with detachment or attachment, wisdom or ignorance. ... Kh. Sujin said, "that which is not real" is > nimitta. This is experience now with undeveloped pa~n~na. I think it > is pa~n~na which develops and eventually penetrates the arising and > falling away and then no more nimitta. ... S: At those moments of insight, the realities themselves are precisely known. Still, all conditioned dhammas have nimittas and as I wrote in my earlier post, even an arahant experiences nimittas of objects, but without any clinging. Thx, Scott for helping us to reflect further. Metta, Sarah p.s sorry - here S: stands for Sarah ======== #66014 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nimitta scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, More of what I'm learning: S: "I also scribbled down as I listened, her emphasis on: - 'no 'I', just understanding which understands' - 'not just the matter of reading or hearing, but understanding reality on and on' - 'just like a dream, passing on and on' - 'panna can know and become detached' - 'panna becomes more and more precise to be detached' - 'the most important thing is how can one have less and less attachment to the result of studying and developing' - 'instead of thinking about dhamma to have better understanding, we're thinking about ourselves - frustration and things. What about understanding? That's all and the other realities have arisen continuously all the time. It always shows clinging so much when one's thinking of oneself in dhamma [study] or whatever.'" This helps me notice a rather deep attachment to 'my experience'. I keep wondering about what it would be like to experience 'seeing' under the influence of pa~n~na, for example. I used to imagine that this would be somehow different than 'normal seeing'. Like that it would be some sort of magical vision of little dots and colours cascading or something. Too much Magical Mystery Tour. Pa~n~na isn't acid after all. At any rate, its obvious that this sort of day-dreaming is of no use. But it is some sort of attachment to result. Kh. Sujin: "Pa~n~na knows everything just past." N: "No more nimitta?" Kh. Sujin: "Nibbaana only." And later, Kh. Sujin: "When vipassanaa realises - no nimitta - the understanding is complete." Obsessed as I am with experience, I imagined she was speaking from her own experience. And I think she must be speaking of lokuttara citta. Sincerely, Scott. #66015 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:40 am Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka lbidd2 Hi Howard, You have understood me correctly but I would add that I also find "unseen sight" incoherent. But unseen visible data is not incoherent. In fact it is a very common conventional concept. Otherwise no one would say "look", and there would be no glasses. As for earth element which you exemplified as "itch", I would say the state of being solid is different from the sensation of hardness. I can't analyze the specifics of an itch itself. I don't know how an itch works. I believe my understanding conforms to a scientific view. Larry #66016 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nimitta lbidd2 Hi all, An errant thought on nimitta. The difference between a dream and waking experience is that 5-door consciousness doesn't have nimitta as object, but in a dream nimitta is the object of mind-door consciousness. That accounts for visual and other possible sensory experiences in dreams. They are actually experiences of nimitta. Larry #66017 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:21 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life, 147 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 20 Planes of Existence We are born, we die and then we are born again. It is beyond control in which plane of existence we will be reborn; it depends on the kamma which produces the paìisandhi-citta (rebirth-consciousness) after the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness) has fallen away. At this moment we are living in the human plane. Human life, however, is very short. When this life is over we do not know in which plane we will be reborn. Most people do not like to think of the shortness of human life; they are absorbed in what they experience through the sense-doors and on account of these experiences they are happy or unhappy. However, we should realize that happiness and unhappiness are only mental phenomena which arise because of conditions and fall away again. Our whole life is a sequence of phenomena which arise and fall away again. Many religions teach about heaven and hell. In what respect are the Buddhist teachings different? Do we just have to believe in heaven and hell? Through the Buddhist teachings we learn to study realities, to study cause and effect in life. Each cause brings about its appropriate result. People perform good and bad deeds and these deeds bring different results; they can cause births in different planes of existence. A plane of existence is the place where one is born. Birth in a woeful plane is the result of a bad deed and birth in a happy plane is the result of a good deed. Since the deeds of beings are of many different degrees of kusala and akusala, the results are of many different degrees as well. There are different woeful planes and different happy planes of existence. The animal world is a woeful plane. We can see how animals devour one another and we find that nature is cruel. The animal world is not the only woeful plane. There are different hell planes. The akusala vipåka in hell is more intense than the sufferings which can be experienced in the human plane. The descriptions of hells in the Buddhist teachings are not merely allegories; the experience of unpleasant things through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense is akusala vipåka and akusala vipåka is reality. Life in a hell plane is not permanent; when one's lifespan in a hell plane is over there can be rebirth in another plane. ******** Nina. #66018 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:23 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana II, 10. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin spoke again and again about natural awareness. She said: “When one enjoys something very much one cannot prevent it, but by being aware there can be right understanding. That is the eightfold Path. One should understand all conditioned realities which occur in one's life. Seeing is conditioned, pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling are conditioned. They have their own conditions already. We should not ‘prepare’ conditions for anything to arise. When one develops more the eightfold Path one can see how intricate and subtle its development is. Sati and paññå can follow the realities appearing through all doorways until there is no doubt about conditioned realities. Nobody can condition any reality at all. When there is sati with a very low level of understanding, begin again, begin again. When one has precise understanding of the Middle Way, one will not turn away. One can easily turn away because of lobha.” When one hears about natural awareness in the midst of enjoyment, one may wonder where the right effort of the eightfold Path comes in. It comes in exactly when we begin again, begin again. When we are not disheartened about our low level of understanding and there is courage for sati and paññå now, there is right effort accompanying right understanding, even though we are only in a beginning stage of developing the eightfold Path. We do not have to think of making an effort, then there would be an idea of self who exerts effort. We should not forget that sati without the development of understanding is not very helpful. Understanding of the flux of realities which is our life is the goal. **** Nina. #66019 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/10/06 1:44:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > You have understood me correctly but I would add that I also find "unseen > sight" > incoherent. But unseen visible data is not incoherent. In fact it is a very > common > conventional concept. Otherwise no one would say "look", and there would be > no glasses. --------------------------------------------- Howard: But we aren't discussing conventional notions, I believe. When I'm speaking of a sight/visible object, I'm referring to a paramattha dhamma. It seems to me that when you speak of unseen visible data, you are accepting the conventional physics view of photons/light waves, though probably not the commonsense, conventional "scenes" that are thought of as due to light bouncing off of conventional, external objects such as trees and grass and birds and buildings. All of these, it seems to me, including the physicists' photons and light waves, are concept-only, mere predictively-useful stories or conceptual schemes. ---------------------------------------------- > > As for earth element which you exemplified as "itch", I would say the state > of being solid is > different from the sensation of hardness. I can't analyze the specifics of > an itch itself. I > don't know how an itch works. I believe my understanding conforms to a > scientific view. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I spoke of an itch rather than hardness in order to be quite specific. (The less concrete our speech, the greater the unreality that enters in, I believe.) To me, an itch is a body-door sensation, a rupa that doesn't exist except as an element of experience. There aren't itches to be found "out there", IMO, but only as elements of experience. As for "the state of being solid", what "thing" is it that you think is in that state? Speaking of a "state of being solid" presupposes some "thing" that is in that state, like an aggregate of H2O molecules at a temperature of less than 32 F. For me, this is all just (useful) "story telling". -------------------------------------------- > > Larry ======================= With metta, Howard #66020 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 11:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] ignorances nilovg Dear Connie, ""nimitta, no friend" hurts a little, and that is due to conditions, can't be helped." ------ C: hope you've > found your missing tooth! --------- N: yes, I missed something, but I retrieved it when waking up. I understood better: metta is with the citta and that is true friendship. But there can also be clinging to metta citta, or the calm it brings. From the Net (my p. 205, is different): Feeling is at times overwhelming, the bait of the round. But we always have the Dhatukatha, so that we can chase these little agents, selves, away from the backdoor. Dhatukatha, intro: . Cetasikas are under dhammaayatana, as you know. Nina. Op 10-dec-2006, om 3:07 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > btw, i really appreciated your visit the other night #66021 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:01 pm Subject: Answers to Q. Cetasikas, akusala as object. nilovg Dear Han, I understand what you say: ------- N: I remember Kh Sujin mentioning lobha as an example. But one does not have to sit in meditation when becoming enlightened. It just happens very fast in daily life, and someone else will not notice it. It is paccatta.m, each for oneself. As we discussed: all the objects are the same (just daily!), but pa~n~naa grows. And so it is also just before enlightenment. I am not thinking of heavy akusala kamma, I am thinking of all those moments we have now: slight uneasiness, worry, even sadness, attachment to what we see or eat. Pa~n~naa can penetrate all such moments be they of a slight degree or of a heavier degree. Who knows, even great anger can be an object of insight. I am glad that any dhamma can be the object of insight even up to the last maha-kusala cittas befor the gotrabhuu. It teaches us that also akusala must be the object of insight. When reading the Theri- theragatha we see examples of enlightenment in the midst of daily life. Nina. #66022 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta: pathways to understanding nilovg Dear Matheesha, I like your simple examples very much, like the table. Also the Psychiatry examples. You explained things in a lively way, showing how we can be caught by an idea of self. You were building up your lecture gradually, coming more and more to the point. Thank you very much. Nina. Op 9-dec-2006, om 22:00 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > So if we look at this self view, we see that > 1) there is a self view which is false > 2) it has a cause – craving ..and ignorance as well > 3) there is an abandonment of the self view > 4) and the path to that is the noble eightfold path. #66023 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 1:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: vipallaasas and sotaapanna jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Joop (and Matt) > > I notice you've included in your list of threads that are currently > discussing "what it's like to be a sotapanna" the thread between Matt > and me. > ... Hallo Jon, Matt I'm glad you are not impressed by my lists, Jon. Jon: " Matt's view is that there can be no intention to kill in the absence of a wrong view of self (and that this explains why it is said in the texts that a sotapanna is incapable of any intentional killing or causing of bodily harm)." Joop: I have seen part of this discussion but did not follow it because it seems speculative to me. (Perhaps it's a better thought-experiment about an animal in stead of a sotapanna. Most aninimals don't have no view of themselves at all and also not a wrong view of self. But such an animal without a wrong view of self, for example a lion, still is capable of intentional killing.) Jon: " When stated this way, would you agree that it's not about being a sotapanna? Perhaps you have some views of your own on the point that you'd like to share?" Joop: I don't agree: it's about that it's said in the texts that a sotapanna in capable of doing … (etc) Jon: "I haven't checked the other threads in your list, but I suspect that many or most of them are likewise not really about what it's like to be a sotapanna, but about issues that relate directly to our own daily lives." Joop: I will not try to proof that I'm right because whatever I say, will give you the response that this is in fact not about how it is to be a sotapanna. And I state that understanding our daily life (because that seems to be important for you) can not be helped by speculation about a sotapanna. And I rest in my general remark: let's not talk abou sotapanna at all (till we are one). Metta Joop #66024 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Answers to Q. Cetasikas, akusala as object. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. I trust your judgment. I am also happy to note your confirmation that any dhamma (even a slight degree or a heavier degree of akusala) can be the object of insight even up to the last maha-kusala cittas befor the gotrabhuu. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > As we discussed: all the objects are the same (just > daily!), but > pa~n~naa grows. And so it is also just before > enlightenment. > I am glad that any dhamma can be the object of > insight even up to the > last maha-kusala cittas befor the gotrabhuu. > #66025 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:11 am Subject: RE: [dsg] intelligence by ajahn brahm dacostacharles Hi Matheesha, The only problem I have is the title. I see the talk as more about Wisdom then the Intelligence. I say this because Intelligence is one of the 5 aggregates, and I was expecting a talk on that. Charles DaCosta _____ From: matheesha [mailto:dhammachat@...] Subject: [dsg] intelligence by ajahn brahm Hi everyone, Interesting talk on intelligence: http://www.bswa. org/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?cid=4&lid=468 #66026 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:18 am Subject: Re: groundhog reflections, sense of urgency buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > If you are thinking of samvega as some sort of state of panic then it > may be that what you take for samvega is not actually samvega ;-)) I quit DSG for a time because of this post. You really hurt my feelings and made me upset. I thought to myself, "Why in the hell am I spending my time with people who don't understand and really appreciate what the Buddha taught? How could someone suggest I was in a `state of panic' for wanting to follow the Buddha's teachings?? How could someone judge my life and my circumstances by their life?? What kinds of friends have I met here and are they truly friends??" Yes, I thought all that and more. But now I rejoin…with reservations. My feelings are still hurt, but I know that my feelings are not important. What is important is to keep seeking for the truth. If I have to drag myself through the barbed wire of people's judgments and accusations, then so be it. As long as I know that truth lies on the other side, then it will make it all worth it. Jon, you have been a dear sweet person to me and have helped me. I'm sorry if I took your joke the wrong way. Metta, James #66027 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka lbidd2 Hi Howard, When it comes to rupa I would say science has the inside track on ultimate reality, but the basic mechanism of sense object, sense organ, and sense consciousness conforms to the Buddha's analysis. And when it comes to the cessation of grasping rupa, how could rupa be more elusive if we can't even get at it directly? Also, what is the tangible data of an itch if not earth element on the outside of the body door? However, I don't think a consciousness only view is necessary for nibbana. There isn't any indication of such a thing in the suttas as far as I know.This idea only comes up later in commentary and it happens to conform to science, which is a plus in my book. But someone else may not need that. Larry #66028 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 5:53 pm Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka ken_aitch Hi Larry, --------------- KH: > > "In my opinion we should avoid unnecessary complications. Namas experience an object, and rupas don't experience anything." L: > Except nibbana. ---------------- Yes, except nibbana. ------------------- L: > But whatever makes sense to you is fine. -------------------- Thank you. Of course, the "sense" that it makes to me has to be consistent with the Dhamma, doesn't it? Otherwise, it would be useless. ------------------------------ L: > The Buddha explained the dhamma in many ways. ------------------------------ That's true, but there is only one Dhamma. So if we disagree, we can't both be right. Ken H #66029 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:09 pm Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka ken_aitch Hi Howard and Larry, Thanks for setting this out the way you have, Howard, it makes our different viewpoints quite a lot clearer. ----------------- <. . .> L: > > > In other words the appearance of this email is the, presumably accurate, reflection of the actual visible data of the email. Rupa is not really an element of experience. Howard: > Here, you, Larry, I believe are expressing the following position: In seeing, three elements are involved (in addition to eye door and perhaps other phenomena): 1) Eye consciousness, 2) the visible object, "out there", a rupa - what I would call a hypothesized "external rupa", and 3) the visual element of experience, "in here" that you believe is in some sense an accurate refection of the "external" rupa - what I would call in this case an "internal rupa" or eye-door "sensation". > ------------------ KH: If I am following correctly, this element of visual experience is a new paramattha dhamma (that is not mentioned anywhere in the texts). But, of course, I may not be following correctly. ------------------------------ KH: > > No, I am sure visible rupa is the object of visual experience (seeing consciousness) and, therefore, it is an element of a moment of seeing. > > Howard: > Here, you, Ken, I believe, are expressing the following position: In seeing, two elements are involved (in addition to eye door and perhaps other phenomena): 1) Eye conciousness, and 2) the visible object "out there", a rupa which, though external, is, itself, is the content of conscousness, requiring no "internal" reflection, but seen directly. > ------------------------------- KH: Yes, and I believe phassa (contact between citta and its object) serves as the essential ingredient. Because there is phassa a moment of seeing is complete. There is no need for a separate visual-experience dhamma. --------------------------------------- L: > > > Experience is consciousness only. KH: > > But there needs to be an object of seeing. 'No show without Punch!' Howard: > Here it seems to me that you, Larry, deny an objective pole to the experiential event, and, you, Ken, assert its necessity. On this issue, I'm closer to you, Ken, though we probably differ on the matter of the independence of the object from the seeing of it, an independence I deny. ----------------------------------------- Yes, I think you have understood my understanding. :-) And we do differ on the matter of independence. I believe co-existing dhammas depend on each other for support, but nama is still nama and rupa is still rupa. They do not combine to form what might be called a namarupa dhamma. --------------------------------------------------------- <. . .> Howard: > My (third) position is the following: In seeing, two elements are involved (in addition to eye door and perhaps other phenomena): 1) Eye conciousness, and 2) the visual element of experience "in here", the visible object, a rupa which, itself, is the actual content of conscousness, requiring no "external" entity to reflect, but seen directly. ---------------------------------------------------------- I think I get the picture. Using my own numbering system: you and Larry are convinced that there must be more than (1) eye consciousness, (2) visible object and (3) contact between eye consciousness and visible object. You believe there must be an element of "visual experience." Larry sees visual experience as an addition to the above three dhammas, while you see it as an alternative. That alternative is a merger of eye-consciousness and eye-object. So there is neither a dhamma that sees nor a dhamma that is seen. (Nor, perhaps a dhamma that is contact, but let's not worry about than now.) In my opinion, however, there is no need for a separate element of visual experience. I believe visual experience is simply a name given to a moment in which various namas and rupas (including 1, 2 and 3) co-arise. ----------------------------- H: > As for whether or not there exists an additional "external" rupa that is "reflected" by the directly cognized "internal" visual sensation, that is in principle untestable and unknowable. ------------------------------ Larry has answered this in the affirmative (that there is an external visible object) and I agree with him on that score. But I disagree that there is an additional dhamma, "internal visible object." I also disagree with your theory of a merging of dhammas to form an element of visual experience. But, as I said, our various viewpoints are at least becoming clearer to me, thanks. Ken H #66030 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka lbidd2 Hi Ken, K: "if we disagree, we can't both be right." L: Well, we can both be wrong. Being right is more about making sense without making ego. We can have different ways of making sense dependent on our accumulations. Wrapping ourselves in the Buddha's words doesn't relieve us of the necessity of interpretation. Larry #66031 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/10/06 8:04:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > When it comes to rupa I would say science has the inside track on > ultimate reality, but the basic mechanism of sense object, sense organ, > and sense consciousness conforms to the Buddha's analysis. And when it > comes to the cessation of grasping rupa, how could rupa be more elusive > if we can't even get at it directly? > > Also, what is the tangible data of an itch if not earth element on the > outside of the body door? ------------------------------------ Howard: I don't know what exactly you mean by "tangible data", but to me an itch is nothing more than a sensation, an experience, i.e., a particular sort of content/object of consciousness. My perspective is that we are aware of a huge variety of 6 sorts of sensations, and with these as basis we project an external world of objects that is either the commonsense world of trees, bees, and filagrees, or the physicist's world of strings and things, or the ancients' and Abhidhammikas' world of earth, air, fire, and water. (Sorry I didn't end with a rhyme, but the Abhidhamma isn't as poetic as Zen! ;-) ----------------------------------- > > However, I don't think a consciousness only view is necessary for > nibbana. > ------------------------------------ Howard: What is needed to realize nibbana is the uprooting of the three poisons. In any case, I don't consider my view to be conscious-only. I distinguish between knowing and known, as two (not one) intertwined, interdependent aspects of the experiential event. I think in terms of experiential events, activities, and operations, not "consciousness things" and not material substance or particles either. Inside and out it is all empty, with neither a tangle within nor a tangle without. ------------------------------------- There isn't any indication of such a thing in the suttas as far> > as I know.This idea only comes up later in commentary and it happens to > conform to science, which is a plus in my book. But someone else may not > need that. ----------------------------------- Howard: My interpretation of the Bahiya Sutta is exactly that of a teaching to not go beyond the mere experienced (to hypothesized external objects or to a hypothesized internal subject/knower. (In the seen there is merely the seen.) ------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ===================== With metta, Howard #66032 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka lbidd2 Hi again Ken, I would like to clarify one point below: K: "I think I get the picture. Using my own numbering system: you and Larry are convinced that there must be more than (1) eye consciousness, (2) visible object and (3) contact between eye consciousness and visible object. You believe there must be an element of "visual experience." Larry sees visual experience as an addition to the above three dhammas, while you see it as an alternative. That alternative is a merger of eye-consciousness and eye-object. So there is neither a dhamma that sees nor a dhamma that is seen. (Nor, perhaps a dhamma that is contact, but let's not worry about than now.)" L: In the view I was explaining visual experience is eye consciousness, not something extra. However, another way of understanding this just occurred to me. It might be that visual experience is contact; in other words the coming together of object, sensitive matter, and eye consciousness. That would lend some credence to the presence of object in 5-door consciousness. But I still think we have to say this experience is different from the rupa. Anyone who wears glasses knows this. That would give us an extra dhamma, but in this case the extra dhamma is contact, which in this explanation we are calling visual experience. For mind-door consciousness, I don't think desire ever arises exactly _with_ its object. It doesn't really make sense to me to say desire experiences a flavour rupa or a taste sensation or a feeling. Desire is just the experience of desire, but it is linked by the force of conditioning to a previous experience as object. Because consciousnesses arise one at a time they can't interact directly; they can only react sequentially. This raises the question, what about insight? Doesn't insight (pa~n~naa) have a co-present object? If not, then what is the experience that is insight? When we are very still we can experience the arising and falling away of akusala cittas. Darting in and out of this flow is understanding which is something different and not really co-present. Also, the stillness is something different and not co-present. Larry #66033 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Larry) - In a message dated 12/10/06 9:14:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard and Larry, > > Thanks for setting this out the way you have, Howard, it makes our > different viewpoints quite a lot clearer. > > ----------------- > <. . .> > L: >>>In other words the appearance of this email is the, > presumably accurate, reflection of the actual visible data of the > email. Rupa is not really an element of experience. > > Howard: > Here, you, Larry, I believe are expressing the following > position: In seeing, three elements are involved (in addition to eye > door and perhaps other phenomena): 1) Eye consciousness, 2) the > visible object, "out there", a rupa - what I would call a hypothesized > "external rupa", and 3) the visual element of experience, "in here" > that you believe is in some sense an accurate refection of the > "external" rupa - what I would call in this case an "internal rupa" or > eye-door "sensation". > > ------------------ > > KH: If I am following correctly, this element of visual experience is > a new paramattha dhamma (that is not mentioned anywhere in the texts). > But, of course, I may not be following correctly. --------------------------------------------- Howard: You are correct, Ken. I view Larry's perspective as countenancing two kinds of rupas, those "out there", unobserved, and those "in here", the sensations that are "correct reflections"of the external rupas. (Larry doesn't call the sensations rpas, though.) You and I countenance only a single sort of rupa, I would say. Rupas to you are of the single sort "self-existent and external", while mine are of the single sort "dependent on (though distinguishable from) conscousness and internal". I agree with you that the Dhamma doesn't speak of two sorts of rupas. Of course, there could be both types, but with the type difference not being made anything of, with them all "just being rupas". ------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------ > KH: >>No, I am sure visible rupa is the object of visual experience > (seeing consciousness) and, therefore, it is an element of a moment of > seeing. >> > > Howard: > > Here, you, Ken, I believe, are expressing the following > position: In seeing, two elements are involved (in addition to eye > door and perhaps other phenomena): 1) Eye conciousness, and 2) the > visible object "out there", a rupa which, though external, is, itself, > is the content of conscousness, requiring no "internal" reflection, > but seen directly. > > ------------------------------- > > KH: Yes, and I believe phassa (contact between citta and its object) > serves as the essential ingredient. Because there is phassa a moment > of seeing is complete. There is no need for a separate > visual-experience dhamma. > > --------------------------------------- > L: >>>Experience is consciousness only. > > KH: >>But there needs to be an object of seeing. 'No show without > Punch!' > > Howard: > Here it seems to me that you, Larry, deny an objective > pole to the experiential event, and, you, Ken, assert its necessity. > On this issue, I'm closer to you, Ken, though we probably differ on > the matter of the independence of the object from the seeing of it, an > independence I deny. > ----------------------------------------- > > Yes, I think you have understood my understanding. :-) And we do > differ on the matter of independence. I believe co-existing dhammas > depend on each other for support, but nama is still nama and rupa is > still rupa. They do not combine to form what might be called a > namarupa dhamma. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I also distinguish nama from rupa, but I deny their independent existence. -------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------------------- > <. . .> > Howard: > My (third) position is the following: In seeing, two > elements are involved (in addition to eye door and perhaps other > phenomena): 1) Eye conciousness, and 2) the visual element of > experience "in here", the visible object, a rupa which, itself, is the > actual content of conscousness, requiring no "external" entity to > reflect, but seen directly. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > I think I get the picture. Using my own numbering system: you and > Larry are convinced that there must be more than (1) eye > consciousness, (2) visible object and (3) contact between eye > consciousness and visible object. You believe there must be an element > of "visual experience." Larry sees visual experience as an > addition to the above three dhammas, while you see it as an > alternative. That alternative is a merger of eye-consciousness and > eye-object. So there is neither a dhamma that sees nor a dhamma that > is seen. (Nor, perhaps a dhamma that is contact, but let's not worry > about than now.) ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I think your understanding of Larry's position and my position is very, very close to perfect. With regard to Larry's position, at times I think he sees two sorts of rupa, the external rupa and the experience/sensation, though he may not call the latter "rupa", but at other times I think he identifies the experience/sensation with consciousness itself, this last being confusing to me, as I distinguish knowing from known. With regard to my position, the only respect in which I think your grasp is slightly off is that I do not see the observed sensation/experience as some sort of merger. Seeing and seen are mutually dependent but not identical. The sensation observed, for example the sight seen, is exactly the object/content of consciousness, and that is not identical with the knowing of it, though the two are mutually dependent. ------------------------------------------------ > > In my opinion, however, there is no need for a separate element of > visual experience. I believe visual experience is simply a name given > to a moment in which various namas and rupas (including 1, 2 and 3) > co-arise. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: You and I agree on there being but one category of rupa. We differ on the matter of the independence of rupa from vi~n~nana. ------------------------------------------------ > > ----------------------------- > H: > As for whether or not there exists an additional "external" rupa > that is "reflected" by the directly cognized "internal" visual > sensation, that is in principle untestable and unknowable. > > ------------------------------ > > Larry has answered this in the affirmative (that there is an external > visible object) and I agree with him on that score. But I disagree > that there is an additional dhamma, "internal visible object." I also > disagree with your theory of a merging of dhammas to form an element > of visual experience. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I don't have a merging theory, only an interdependence theory. ------------------------------------- But, as I said, our various viewpoints are at> > least becoming clearer to me, thanks. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: That's great! I think that actually understanding what each other is talking about is, in general, an enormous accomplishment - seriously!! --------------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > ===================== With metta, Howard #66034 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 10, 2006 9:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka lbidd2 Hi Howard, H: "My interpretation of the Bahiya Sutta is exactly that of a teaching to not go beyond the mere experienced (to hypothesized external objects or to a hypothesized internal subject/knower. (In the seen there is merely the seen.)" L: I understand this slightly differently. Not so much a teaching to not go beyond the mere experienced but rather a teaching about correct identification. I don't think there is any understanding in mere experience. But I can see your view as an aspect of fruition. Larry #66035 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:28 am Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka icarofranca Hi Larry, Ken, Howard! ------------------------------------------------------------------- >K: "if we disagree, we can't both be right." > > L: Well, we can both be wrong. Being right is more about making >sense > without making ego. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Logic isn´t mere common sense - as a matter of fact, being guide by shallow common sense ends with the idea that Sun orbits around Earth! Buddha always stressed the necessity of clear perception and insight, due the congenital and usual human mind'Å› lack of logic - the Nama/Rupa question, for example: reality touches out our sense doors and we get the idea of "Rupa"...with the refinement of our perceptions and ideas we can manage reaching up a more sophisticated notion of flow of Dhammas. And, of course, right or wrong arguments haven't any deal with ego. ------------------------------------------------------------- We can have different ways of making sense dependent > on our accumulations. Wrapping ourselves in the Buddha's words doesn't > relieve us of the necessity of interpretation. -------------------------------------------------------------- As stated on Vishuddhimagga, chapter one! Good reading your posts again! ^_^ Mettaya, Ã?caro #66036 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:34 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 606- Wholesome Deeds(c) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd We have learnt about the twenty five sobhana cetasikas, but now we should apply our knowledge in daily life. When we learn more in detail about the opportunities for the performing of good deeds there are conditions for using such opportunities. Good deeds can be classified as generosity (dåna), morality (síla) and mental development (bhåvanå). The Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part IV, Chapter VIII, 157) gives, with regard to kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, mahå-kusala cittas, a tenfold classification of good deeds, namely as the “ten bases of meritorious deeds” (puññakiriya- vatthus). Learning about these aspects is beneficial for the practice of kusala. We read in the Atthasåliní about the following “bases of meritorious deeds”: 1) charity or generosity 2) virtue or morality 3) culture or mental development 4) respect 5) dutifulness or helpfulness 6) sharing one’s merit 7) thanksgiving or appreciation of someone else’s good deeds 8) teaching Dhamma 9) listening to Dhamma 10) rectification of opinion (correction of one’s views) ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66037 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] vipassana pratice sarahprocter... Hi Raghunath, Welcome to DSG and thank you for starting here with a good question: --- Raghunath Awachar wrote: > Hi > I want to know in detais about vipassana its origin , reference and > the way to practise it. Can I get the information in simple way? ..... S: Vipassanaa literally means 'insight' or vision and I believe it comes from (vi+passati. It refers to the developed understanding only taught by the Buddha and references can be found throughout the texts. In the 'Useful Posts' section of the files of DSG, under 'vipassana', yu can find a lot more detail. Here is a reply Jon wrote to a friend who asked a similar question to you (a few years back) which I just came across in that section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3663 B:> how can we practice vipassana-bhavana, ie, the > development of insight that > leads to the eradication of defilements? what can, > what shall we do? Jon replied: >This is not an easy question to answer, let alone to answer briefly, but here goes. As you know, there is no ‘we’ who can practise. But we also need to realise that there is no ‘practice’ to be done either in any generally accepted sense of the word. Vipassana bhavana is the ‘making become’ (bhavana) of understanding or wisdom (vipassana). The question we actually need to consider is, How is vipassana made to become (ie. developed)? Understanding is something that grows by gradual accretion, given the right conditions. One of those conditions is a correct understanding, from listening to and studying the texts (pariyatti –‘theory’), of exactly what the Buddha meant by vipassana bhavana. Many people are not much interested in this. They regard the study of the texts, intellectual understanding, listening and considering (call it what you will) as something for beginners, members of dsg and other nerds. They also seem to think that having an interest in this implicitly rules out any interest in understanding at other levels. This totally misses the point that understanding at a deeper level (patipatti – ‘practice’) can only occur if the proper basis is there. The other point that is not appreciated is that the different levels of understanding are interdependent and mutually supportive. Progress along the path is a cycle of listening, considering, applying, realising. Pariyatti (theory), patipatti (practice) and pativedha (realization). Sutta-, cinta- and bhavana-maya-panna (understanding acquired through listening, considering and realising). This cycle continues until enlightenment. They are not discrete stages that are to be left behind. So, keeping it as brief as possible: Vipassana bhavana is not a question of practising, it’s a question of the development of understanding. The understanding to be developed is the understanding of the reality appearing at the present moment, so it is all about studying more, knowing more about the reality appearing at the present moment. It’s sounds simple, I know, but there’s nothing easy about it! I hope this helps a little. Jon< ***** S: Raghunath, please let me know if this is too complicated and if you have more questions which I'll try to reply to more simply if need be. It would help (as well as be interesting), if you would tell us a little about your background interest in Buddhism and where you live. Are you familiar with the Pali terms at all? Thanks again for joining us and asking this important question. Metta, Sarah ======= #66038 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Answers to Q. Cetasikas, akusala as object. nilovg Dear Han, It is not such a good idea to trust my judgement. I may be wrong. We should not accept things from someone else, but we can further reflect on difficult subjects. We may come to different conclusions and that is all right too. A person who is skilled in jhana and makes jhana the basis for insight sits in meditation, but I do not think he prepares for enlightenment while sitting in meditation. This is anatta and it will occur when the time is ripe. For us laypeople without jhana life is different. When we have pain and also aversion about it, insight can be developed and the mahakusala cittas before the gotrabhuu can take any object that presents itself and it can be realized as impermanent, dukkha or anattaa. People who suffered great loss listened to the Buddha and while they listened they investigated nama and rupa, and they could attain enlightenment then and there. They experienced sadness, their tears were not dried yet. Any object could be realized as impermanent, dukkha or anattaa. Nina. Op 10-dec-2006, om 23:04 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I trust your judgment. > I am also happy to note your confirmation that any > dhamma (even a slight degree or a heavier degree of > akusala) can be the object of insight even up to the > last maha-kusala cittas befor the gotrabhuu. #66039 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 603- The Stages of Insight (y) sarahprocter... Dear Han (& Nina), I'd like to also add that I thought your answers to the Qus were very good indeed and your further discussion with Nina on the points is very interesting. May I suggest that you keep a note of any areas of special interest or queery so that we can also raise them when we meet together in Bangkok in Jan? I also have a few put aside, such as the good one you mentioned on the ref. to yoniso manasikara in Qus of K.Milinda. The qu on aversion arising in the enlightenment process is a very interesting one that I hadn't considered before. Thanks again for your careful study and keen interest in these topics arising from 'Cetasikas'. Metta, Sarah p.s I'm just repeating your first excellent answer here: --- han tun wrote: > Dear Nina and Sarah, > > Questions: > > Question (i) Why can the arising and falling away of > nåma and rúpa not be realized before the difference > between nåma and rúpa has been clearly seen? > > Answer: The first stage of insight, which is only a > beginning stage, is the understanding of the > difference between the characteristic of naama and the > characteristic of ruupa, not merely in theory but > through direct understanding of them when they appear. > The first stage of insight is called Defining of naama > and ruupa, or "Delimitation of Formations" (in Pali: > naama-ruupa-pariccheda-nana). Without this first stage > of insight, the following stages of insight, including > the knowledge of arising and falling away of naama and > ruupa (udayabbaya nana) cannot be realized. Thus, the > impermanence of, for example, seeing cannot be > realized if there is no clear understanding first of > the characteristic of seeing as naama, different from > ruupa. We know in theory that seeing does not stay, > that it must have fallen away when there is thinking > of a concept, but this does not mean that the arising > and falling away of seeing at this moment is directly > known. Seeing and visible object may still seem to > appear together, and then there is no mindfulness of > one reality at a time but only thinking about seeing > and visible object. Therefore, the direct > understanding of the difference between the > characteristic of naama and the characteristic of > ruupa is necessary, so that the knowledge of arising > and falling away of naam and ruupa can be realized. #66040 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipallaasas and sotaapanna sarahprocter... Dear Joop, --- Joop wrote: > J: Come on Sarah, I did a search on threads in DSG on this question. > This question (and the question how it is to be a arahant) is posed > again and again in DSG. Below the result of only the last two weeks. > > So WE can't possibly speak FOR the others but we can speak TO the > others: > "We, Sarah and Joop, advice all the people on DSG not thinking so > much > on the question: "how is it to be a sotapanna or a arahant?"; > We think it's better to spend our time understanding the present > moment." .... S: Without going into whether or not you are right in your assessment of the current topics, I'd like to rephrase our joint statement: "We, Sarah and Joop, are interested in spending our time understanding the present moment, but are happy to let others spend their time as they wish!" > J > and better spend our time on the question: how to get a > sotapanna ???. > > S: I think it's better to spend our time understanding the present > moment dhammas and not being concerned about 'how to get' anything. > > J: That is a bit contradictory with remarks about 'the Path' you (and > all of us) are making, for example: > > > S: "…Everything about the development of the Path is difficult > because it completely goes against our usual Path." .... S: If we are concerned about 'getting' anything, the Path becomes more and more difficult. Lobha always moves us along the wrong path. ... > > J: So 'the Path' is important, 'to go' I say in my metaphoric > language; or 'to develop' you say in your mixture of two metaphores. > And with what purpose? Sotapanna, don't you think? Or straight to > arahantship? ..... S: How about we forget about sotapannas (as you suggest) and going anywhere or getting anything (as I suggest)and start talking about this moment and present realities? Shall we start? What do you consider the reality at the present moment to be? How can the present moment be known? How can there be understanding of the present moment? ..... > S: p.s You'll be glad to hear that James mentioned to me (off-list) > that he's > looking forward to returning soon after his break. > > J: Yes, I am: it's a bit dull here now. .... S: ;-) I know you just love controversy, Joop! Oops, hope that wasn't too personal Metta, Present Moment Topic (aka Sarah) ===================== #66041 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abdhidhamma in Jakarta sarahprocter... Hi Gunasaro (& Fabian), I just wanted to say that I replied to your first intro here before reading your wonderful, long elaboration. It was really a great read and I look forward to any contributions you and Fabian add here in future. This was very funny: --- Gunasaro wrote: > "Misunderstanding of Abhidhamma"... <...> >I used to hear > that Abhidhamma: > 1.. Very technical... > 2.. Very complex... > 3.. Very complicated... > 4.. Need high intensively attended... > 5.. Mostly uses Pali words... > 6.. Only fit for monks & nuns... > 7.. Need a certain level of Dhamma knowledge... > First day, I went to Bogor with a couple of doctors [the husband is > schooling for psychiatrist]. First impression was amazing, he said that > he'd follow the discussion all the way. Later one, both of them sharing > the benefit of learning & practicing Abhidhamma. Their parents, family, > & friends also joint the discussion. Now, I also meet Dhamma-fellows who > used to learn Abhidhamma ~ but unable to gain the essence benefits. Some > even sounded very antipathy... .... S: And then, I was so glad to read the following: .... > For me, the practices have taken me into same stages: > 1.. Better understanding to Dhamma ~ many misinterpretation before > being corrected; sometimes only with a little switching of words, > different way of explanation, examples, and of course: detail > explanations. > 2.. Recognising the reality, an ability to accept suffering with > honesty [but just started from little steps]. > 3.. At the same time, realising more happiness which are surrounding > me [the ability to accept]. > 4.. Challenging to develop the "skill" ~ coz I'm still fragile, used > to loose control... Hé³... > 5.. So happy indeed to have the opportunity to learn & practice > Abhidhamma. Then I found out, whenever one joint the discussion & also > gain the benefit from it, I also feel the happiness. This time, the > feeling also "taste" different from my previous mudita... Unique... > "Confuse in Practicing Dhamma"... > I was taught to practice Dhamma in a common terminology, most of us > here, I guess... It has nothing wrong with the suggestion to practice > the Pancasila, dana, & bhavana [occasionally]. I think the main issue is > in the guidelines ~ the core/essence way to practice. Sometimes it > crossed over my mind: "What more am I supposed to do then? Is this it? > Suppose to be more than only this, huh?" ..... S: You have a great style and humour and appreciation of Abhidhamma/Dhamma. Actually, I'd like to requote it all:-) Of course, in truth, no 'I' to practice or do anything....it all comes down to the understanding of the namas and rupas we read so much about, no matter the language or terminology:-) Seeing is seeing, hearing is hearing, visible object is visible object, no matter whether we call it Abhidhamma or not. .... > I'll be very pleased to have further guidance from everyone here. Please > kindly endure with my ignorance, as I'm just a absolute beginner pupil. .... S: You have a keen appreciation of the teachings and I'll look forward to hearing more of your and Fabian's reflections as I said. Pls join in any threads - we're all used to sharing different views and understandings here, so feel free to disagree or raise tricky questions too! Metta, Sarah ===== #66042 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: groundhog reflections, sense of urgency jonoabb Hi James It's good to see you back. buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > >> If you are thinking of samvega as some sort of state of panic then >> it may be that what you take for samvega is not actually samvega ;-)) >> > > I quit DSG for a time because of this post. You really hurt my > feelings and made me upset. I thought to myself, "Why in the hell am > I spending my time with people who don't understand and really > appreciate what the Buddha taught? How could someone suggest I was > in a `state of panic' for wanting to follow the Buddha's teachings?? > How could someone judge my life and my circumstances by their life?? > What kinds of friends have I met here and are they truly friends??" > Yes, I thought all that and more. > Sorry to have been the cause of your hurt feelings. I did not mean to judge. > But now I rejoin…with reservations. My feelings are still hurt, but > I know that my feelings are not important. What is important is to > keep seeking for the truth. If I have to drag myself through the > barbed wire of people's judgments and accusations, then so be it. As > long as I know that truth lies on the other side, then it will make > it all worth it. > All of us who contribute here are on the receiving end from time to time. I'm afraid we have to learn to accept it as part of the game. As you say, learning more about the truth makes it worthwhile. > Jon, you have been a dear sweet person to me and have helped me. I'm > sorry if I took your joke the wrong way. > Thanks for the kind words. No apology needed. There may have been some misunderstanding about the meaning of my post, but I think we should let that all be in the past, and start afresh. Looking forward to seeing your contributions again. Jon #66043 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:20 am Subject: Re: groundhog reflections, sense of urgency buddhatrue Hi Jon (and all), Thank you for your kind post. I really wish that my feelings hadn't been hurt…"I" wish this and "I" wish that…just more wishing from the little, tiny, illusionary self. Just more drama from a drama queen ;- )) just another tempest in a teacup. Yeah, let's forget it and move on. So boring anyway…. Metta, James Ps. For anyone interested in an excellent, Buddhist, video presentation, may I recommend this link: http://search.utorrent.com/search.php?q=big%20mind&e=http%3a%2f% 2ftorrentspy%2ecom%2fsearch%2easp%3fquery%3d&u=1 However, to download, you will have to install a torrent manager. You can download one at this link: http://www.utorrent.com/ #66044 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Answers to Q. Cetasikas, akusala as object. hantun1 Dear Nina, I have to depend on someone. I have to depend on you. I have to depend on Dr Mehm Tin Mon. I have to depend on Sarah. You know why? I am all alone here, only with books and internet. I have no teacher. I have no personal experience in such matters as jhaana or magga viithi. So I have to trust someone. I have to depend on someone. If that is not a good idea, I am sorry. Please forgive me. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > It is not such a good idea to trust my judgement. I > may be wrong. #66045 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 603- The Stages of Insight (y) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind words. You have noted all the points I have raised. If something new comes up, I will let you know when we meet, before we go to the Foundation. Respectfully, Han #66046 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 6:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: vipallaasas and sotaapanna jwromeijn Hallo Present Moment Topic (aka Sarah) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Joop, > > S: Without going into whether or not you are right in your > assessment of the current topics, I'd like to > rephrase our joint statement: > "We, Sarah and Joop, are interested in spending our > time understanding the present moment, but are happy > to let others spend their time as they wish!" > J: Very good, prt ! Only we know time does not exist, so even 'the present moment' does not exist (that's perhaps too much Zen?) > ..... > S: How about we forget about sotapannas (as you suggest) and going > anywhere or getting anything (as I suggest)and start talking about > this moment and present realities? > Shall we start? What do you consider the reality at the > present moment to be? How can the present moment be known? > How can there be understanding of the present moment? > ..... J: The reality of the present moment one second away was the desire of taking a piece of chocolate. And of this moment: the craving of taking another one. > S: ;-) I know you just love controversy, Joop! Oops, hope that wasn't too personal J: I like people being on the edge. Metta Joop > Metta, > > Present Moment Topic (aka Sarah) > ===================== > #66047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:46 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Jakarta nilovg Dear Gunasaro, As Sarah said, your whole letter is worth while to quote again. What I like: This is very important, the Buddha taught what is akusala and what is kusala. Even a seemingly unimportant act of kindness is valuable, it is kusala and it can be accumulated, so that it arises again. We can learn in daily life that when kusala citta arises there are no attachment, aversion and ignorance. A neighbour's daughter was sighing that she had to visit her parents so often. 'How long will I have to do this?' she said. At such moments there is no patience, there is citta with aversion. But it is possible to learn that when giving a little attention to one's parents or to other people, the citta is quite different: there is calm, patience, kindness. We can try to alleviate somewhat other people's suffering. It is interesting to find out in daily life, with regard to ourselves, that kusala citta is very much different from akusala citta. ------- G: . ------------ This will help us to see that akusala citta is accompanied by akusala cetasikas and kusala citta is accompanied by sobhana, beautiful, cetasikas. These all assist the kusala citta, and it is amazing that so many of them are needed. Without confidence in kusala, kusala citta cannot arise. It is the same with hiri, shame, ottappa, fear of blame which see the danger of akusala, and all the other sobhana cetasikas. This teaches us that kusala citta cannot arise at will, that many conditions are necessary for the arising of kusala citta. It reminds us that akusala citta and kusala citta, all cittas, are non-self. ******** Nina. #66048 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:21 am Subject: Answers to Q. Cetasikas. nilovg Dear Han, you write: I have to depend on someone. I have to depend on you. I have to depend on Dr Mehm Tin Mon. I have to depend on Sarah. You know why? I am all alone here, only with books and internet. I have no teacher. I have no personal experience in such matters as jhaana or magga viithi. So I have to trust someone. I have to depend on someone. ------------ N:Kh Sujin stresses all the time that the Buddha taught us to develop our own understanding. That means: whatever we hear from whomever it may be, we should reflect on it ourselves, verify it, compare it with the Tipitaka and Commentaries. But I know you do this already, so there is no problem. The Buddha taught us to be our own refuge, 'with Dhamma as your island, Dhamma as your refuge.' This is by developing satipatthana. Then we can verify realities ourselves. When I first came to Buddhism the fact of not being dependent on anyone else and being one's own refuge attracted me very much. Nina. #66049 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:32 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily LIfe, 148 nilovg Dear friends, Apart from the animal plane and the hell planes, there are other woeful planes. Birth in the plane of petas (ghosts) is the result of akusala kamma, conditioned by lobha. Beings in that plane have a deformed figure and they are always hungry and thirsty. Furthermore, there is the plane of asuras (demons). The objects which are experienced in the asura plane are not as enjoyable as the objects which can be experienced in the human plane. There are four classes of woeful planes in all. Birth as a human being is a happy rebirth. In the human plane there is opportunity for the development of kusala. One can study Dhamma and learn to develop the way leading to the end of defilements, to the end of birth and death. Birth in the human plane is kusala vipåka, but during one's lifespan in this plane there are both kusala vipåka and akusala vipåka. Each person experiences different results in life: there are gain and loss, honour and dishonour, praise and blame, happiness and misery. It is due to kamma whether someone is born into pleasant or unpleasant surroundings, whether he belongs to a family which is well-to-do or which is poor. The experience of pleasant and unpleasant things through eyes, ears, nose, tongue and bodysense are the results of kamma. Other happy planes, apart from the human plane, are the heavenly planes. In the heavenly planes there is more kusala vipåka than in the human plane and less akusala vipåka. There are several heavenly planes and although life in a heavenly plane lasts a very long time, it is not permanent. The woeful planes, the human plane and the six heavenly planes which are deva planes, are sensuous planes of existence. Sensuous planes of existence are planes where there is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, the experience of tangible object through the bodysense and other kåmåvacara cittas (cittas which are of the sensuous plane of consciousness). There are eleven classes of sensuous planes of existence in all. ****** Nina. #66050 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:35 am Subject: Letters on VIpassana III, 1 nilovg Dear friends, Letter about Vipassanå 3 Through the study of the Dhamma we learn that we are misled by the outer appearance of things. As soon as we open our eyes it seems that we see continuously. Even when there is thinking or hearing it seems that there can still be seeing at the same time. More than one experience at a time seems to occur, but in reality only one citta at a time arises, experiences an object through the appropriate doorway, and then falls away. We may believe that our body can feel pleasant and unpleasant things, but in reality the body consists of rúpas, physical phenomena, which cannot experience anything. The more we study the Dhamma the more we realize that we have accumulated wrong ideas about the phenomena in ourselves and around ourselves. Should we not find out more about the realities of our life? We understand in theory that there is no self, but understanding has not been developed to the stage that the truth of anattå, not self, can be directly realized. At this moment we are full of the idea of self and our clinging to the self is bound to hinder the development of right understanding. We cling to "our kusala" and we have aversion towards "our akusala", we do not see these realities as they are, as not self. Are we not annoyed when there is disturbance of mind, forgetfulness and distraction in a day? Then we have aversion towards "our akusala". We wish to improve the situation and become calm, undisturbed and mindful, in order to accumulate a great deal of kusala, "our kusala". Instead of right understanding of realities which arise because of their own conditions our goal becomes the accumulation of kusala. Then we are moving away from our real goal: detachment from the self through right understanding. Alan Driver, a Dhamma friend who passed away, clearly understood that we can easily be moved away from our real goal. I shall quote from his words: “So very often our aim is not really to understand whatever appears right now. We want to get rid of distraction, to be calmer, to be steadier, to be more organised, to be somehow other than we are. What is that if it is not attachment? Why can't we just be aware of distraction? But, oh no, we don't like distraction and there we are, thoroughly distracted from awareness, because of our attachment to a self who does not want to be distracted. In fact, this is attachment to peace, not the development of understanding..." ******** Nina. #66051 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio nilovg Dear Han, Febr 4, 06. this was about the four kinds of upadana: * sensuous clinging (kÄ?mupÄ?dÄ?na), * clinging to views (ditthupÄ?dÄ?na), * clinging to mere rules and ritual (sÄ«labbatupÄ?dÄ?na), * clinging to the personality-belief (atta-vÄ?dupÄ?dÄ?na). We had a discussion before about no 4, and according to the Nyanatiloka dict. it is the same as sakkayaditthi, but Kh Sujin explained that 4 includes also the vipallaasas: taking dhammas for permanent, sukkha, subha, atta. The sotaapanna has no attasa~n~naa, but still clings , he has subhasa~n~naa, he likes his hand, although he knows that rupas are impermanent. This was the zest of the discussion. This is good for further discussion in Jan. And Sarah will give you a CD, since you have no broadband. Nina. Op 3-dec-2006, om 22:47 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I will be most grateful if you could kindly transcribe > this part for me, please. #66052 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio hantun1 Dear Nina (and Sarah), If I understand you correctly, attavaadupaadaana means sakkaya-ditthi plus ditthi-vipallaasa. I would have thought ditthi-vipallaasa to be more akin with ditthupaadaana. Thank you very much in advance for the CD Sarah would give to me. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > * clinging to the personality-belief > (atta-vÄ?dupÄ?dÄ?na). > > We had a discussion before about no 4, and according > to the > Nyanatiloka dict. it is the same as sakkayaditthi, > but Kh Sujin > explained that 4 includes also the vipallaasas: > taking dhammas for > permanent, sukkha, subha, atta. > The sotaapanna has no attasa~n~naa, but still clings > , he has > subhasa~n~naa, he likes his hand, although he knows > that rupas are > impermanent. This was the zest of the discussion. #66053 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Answers to Q. Cetasikas. hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: When I first came to Buddhism the fact of not being dependent on anyone else and being one's own refuge attracted me very much. Han: I must admire you for this. But I am not as strong as you. I will have to keep on referring to Dr. Mehm Tin Mon or somebody else. Anyway, thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #66054 From: "m_nease" Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 1:23 pm Subject: Re: processes of cittas. m_nease Hi Scott (and Nina and Han), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > I think now, and this is the clarification I seek, that 'visible > object' is merely what is seen - the whole visual field from point of > focus to the edge of periphery - colour(s). Please clarify for me. I'm not sure if others have replied yet, but if you don't mind my two cents' worth: I came to the (tentative) conclusion a long time ago that the entire visual field does not arise at once, or actually at all--it is, I think, a concept created by sa~n~naa (among other conditions) of a great many impingements of light (color if you prefer) on the eye base. If I'm not mistaken, each of these is more like a single pixel that eventually seems, after a very rapid series of others, to make the picture on an old-fashioned television screen than like the entire picture. (I borrowed this simile from our old friend Kom, maybe someone better at searching archives could find it). This seems to me much more consistent with my experience and with my (obviously limited) understanding of the texts. If correct, this would also apply to the other sense fields. As we know, visual consciousness doesn't arise at the same moment of, say, tactile consciouness. If the above is correct though, a scintilla of visual consciousness may be succeeded by a scintilla of tactile consciousness, then one of mental consciousness, then one of olfactory consciousness etc. until a seemingly unified 'picture' of everyday experience is woven together by sa~n~aa after unimaginably huge numbers of these cittas have arisen and subsided (in a split second), giving rise to the impression of a moment of everyday life (and a vastly more 'seamless', 'blended' sense of conventional 'consciousness'). Well, just my opinion--apologies for the klunky writing and sorry if I've belabored the point. mike #66055 From: "KRISTIN" Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:59 am Subject: New Member- Kristin intro pfoceans77 HI all, My name is Kristin. I am 27 and live in Norfolk, VA originally from Philadelphia, PA. I have been studying Buddhism for almost 3 years now on my own. I belong to a couple other Buddhist Yahoo groups also. I have joined this group along with the others to learn as much as possible about Buddhism. I have not yet joined a sangha because I plan on moving again in the next year. I am glad to be a part of your group and will contribute in any way possible. with metta, Kristin #66056 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas. upasaka_howard Hi, Mike (and Scott, Nins, and Han) - In a message dated 12/11/06 4:43:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlnease@... writes: > Hi Scott (and Nina and Han), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" > wrote: > > >I think now, and this is the clarification I seek, that 'visible > >object' is merely what is seen - the whole visual field from point of > >focus to the edge of periphery - colour(s). Please clarify for me. > > I'm not sure if others have replied yet, but if you don't mind my two > cents' worth: I came to the (tentative) conclusion a long time ago > that the entire visual field does not arise at once, or actually at > all--it is, I think, a concept created by sa~n~naa (among other > conditions) of a great many impingements of light (color if you > prefer) on the eye base. If I'm not mistaken, each of these is more > like a single pixel that eventually seems, after a very rapid series > of others, to make the picture on an old-fashioned television screen > than like the entire picture. (I borrowed this simile from our old > friend Kom, maybe someone better at searching archives could find it). > > This seems to me much more consistent with my experience and with my > (obviously limited) understanding of the texts. If correct, this > would also apply to the other sense fields. As we know, visual > consciousness doesn't arise at the same moment of, say, tactile > consciouness. If the above is correct though, a scintilla of visual > consciousness may be succeeded by a scintilla of tactile > consciousness, then one of mental consciousness, then one of olfactory > consciousness etc. until a seemingly unified 'picture' of everyday > experience is woven together by sa~n~aa after unimaginably huge > numbers of these cittas have arisen and subsided (in a split second), > giving rise to the impression of a moment of everyday life (and a > vastly more 'seamless', 'blended' sense of conventional 'consciousness'). > > Well, just my opinion--apologies for the klunky writing and sorry if > I've belabored the point. > > mike > ========================= It seems so coincidental to me that I was thinking about "sights" or "scenes" today, myself! ;-) Your "pixel" idea I seem to recall was expressed by someone else a couple years back, maybe Larry, and the person was told that, no, it isn't that way. I kind of doubt the pixel-at-a-time approach, myself. In any case, if it is not that way, but instead an entire "scene" or "color mosaic" appears at once as a single visual rupa, then it seems to me, and this is what I was thinking about today, that there are. within that visual rupa, relational patterns that are actually "there" awaiting discovery or "carving out" by higher-level sa~n~na and further sankharic processing. That is why, I believe, we "see" trees and grass and birds and clouds and so on, as part of "the scene". The relational patterns are not imagined, but are actual, though they are not paramattha dhammas, requiring, as they do, that further mental processing for their cognizing. If your pixel-at-a-time idea is correct, the mental processing, it seems to me, would be far more complex, relying on a far more complicated use of memory, and a huge sorting out of different sense-door "scintillas", not mixing the different media data in the sa~n~nic and sankharic processing required for cognition in its entirety. With metta, Howard #66057 From: connie Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:49 pm Subject: processes of cittas. nichiconn Hi, Mike, Scott, S: I think now, and this is the clarification I seek, that 'visible object' is merely what is seen - the whole visual field from point of focus to the edge of periphery - colour(s). Please clarify for me. M: I'm not sure if others have replied yet, but if you don't mind my two cents' worth: I came to the (tentative) conclusion a long time ago that the entire visual field does not arise at once, or actually at all--it is, I think, a concept created by sa~n~naa (among other conditions) of a great many impingements of light (color if you prefer) on the eye base. If I'm not mistaken, each of these is more like a single pixel that eventually seems, after a very rapid series of others, to make the picture on an old-fashioned television screen than like the entire picture. (I borrowed this simile from our old friend Kom, maybe someone better at searching archives could find it). C: not to seem competitive, but here's a repost of #2994 > > Subject: Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] Re: Vipassana meditation > > > I'm a big Buster Keaton fan. Suppose I'm watching a > Buster Keaton movie on TV, and someone comes along and > says, "That isn't Buster Keaton." So I say, "Whaddaya > mean, of COURSE it's Buster Keaton, who do YOU think > it is?!" and he says (rather smugly), "It isn't anyone > at all. It's just light from the tube in your > television set, electronically converted from an > extremely rapid series of still images, each one > nearly identical to the previous one (because of > nearly identical conditions in their production). > Each succeeding moment of light from this series of > still images, impinging on the sensitive matter in yer > eyeballs, carries with it the illusion of Buster > Keaton (not to mention a locomotive, trees, soldiers > etc." And he continues (on, and on) about microscopic Thanks for this analogy. I would like to add that if you think of how TV works, the image doesn't even exist. At a finer grain level, TV electron emitter fills the image with progressive series of lines through the entire tube. Each still image that we see is just a series of line. A line can be broken down further. It is a series of electrons hitting the tube progressively to form a line. The light emitted at the beginning of the line is long gone before the light at the end of the line even starts to begin. When we see a person at a moment, what part of a person do we see? How many moments of cittas does it take to see just a person (the entire) head (pannatti) ? When we "see" a person head, surely, the rupas that we think of as a head have all ceased to exist. Which part of the person do we see first? The ear? Then the cheek? Then the nose? The rupa that we take as the ear has ceased to exist even before we start seeing the cheek. Can we take anything we see to be something else besides what is seen? The something else is just purely delusional: it doesn't exist. Anumodhana again for the effort to write down a very good explanation. kom #66058 From: "icarofranca" Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:28 pm Subject: Re: New Member- Kristin intro icarofranca (Not spoiling at all Jon & Sarah efforts on keeping this group warm and comfortable...) Welcome Kristin! Here at DSG you will find THE BEST on Dhamma discussions, Pali scriptures´ interpretation and analysis, argumentation, true and real experiences on living Buddhism and humour, of couse! Keep your track on threads you find more interesting and you will find a treasure on commentaries about Pali tipitaka, Buddhistic lore, grammatical remarks on classical doctrine and lots of fun! Welcome! mettaya, Ícaro (from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil) > I am glad to be a part of your group and will contribute in any way possible. > with metta, > Kristin #66059 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka lbidd2 Icaro!!! Good to see you. How is life treating you these days? Still in the military? Larry #66060 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:18 pm Subject: Re: processes of cittas. scottduncan2 Dear Mike, Thanks for the below: M: "I came to the (tentative) conclusion a long time ago that the entire visual field does not arise at once, or actually at all--it is, I think, a concept created by sa~n~naa (among other conditions) of a great many impingements of light (color if you prefer) on the eye base. If I'm not mistaken, each of these is more like a single pixel that eventually seems, after a very rapid series of others, to make the picture on an old-fashioned television screen than like the entire picture...This seems to me much more consistent with my experience and with my (obviously limited) understanding of the texts." Yeah, I think you're correct, Mike. According to my own even more limited understanding of the texts (I've got the competition thing from connie) I would agree. M: "If correct, this would also apply to the other sense fields. As we know, visual consciousness doesn't arise at the same moment of, say, tactile consciouness. If the above is correct though, a scintilla of visual consciousness may be succeeded by a scintilla of tactile consciousness, then one of mental consciousness, then one of olfactory consciousness etc. until a seemingly unified 'picture' of everyday experience is woven together by sa~n~aa after unimaginably huge numbers of these cittas have arisen and subsided (in a split second), giving rise to the impression of a moment of everyday life (and a vastly more 'seamless', 'blended' sense of conventional 'consciousness')." Far from klunky, this is an elegant description, (I mean 'scintilla' - beautiful, man). It seems very apt. I agree that the other senses would be of the same nature. What a beautiful accompaniment for the dancing puppets... Sincerely, Scott. #66061 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:17 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,121 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 121. Here it may be asked: 'But how is it to be known that this consciousness of the kind stated actually has formations as its condition?'.--Because there is no kamma-result when there is no stored-up kamma. For this consciousness is kamma-result, and kamma-result does not arise in the absence of stored-up kamma. If it did, then all kinds of kamma-resultant consciousnesses would arise in all kinds of beings, and they do not do so. This is how it should be known that such consciousness has formations as its condition. **************************** 121. tattha siyaa ``katha.m paneta.m jaanitabba.m ida.m vuttappakaara.m vi~n~naa.na.m sa"nkhaarapaccayaa hotii´´ti. upacitakammaabhaave vipaakaabhaavato. vipaaka.m heta.m, vipaaka~nca na upacitakammaabhaave uppajjati. yadi uppajjeyya sabbesa.m sabbavipaakaani uppajjeyyu.m, na ca uppajjantiiti jaanitabbameta.m sa"nkhaarapaccayaa ida.m vi~n~naa.na.m hotiiti. #66062 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:23 pm Subject: Re: processes of cittas. scottduncan2 Dear connie, Thanks: C: "not to seem competitive, but here's a repost of #2994..." Good stuff. One citta at a time. A little bhavanga here and there. Sparse. Scott. #66063 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:49 pm Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka ken_aitch Hi Larry (and Howard), -------------- <. . .> L: In the view I was explaining visual experience is eye consciousness, not something extra. --------------- Both Howard and I thought you were describing something extra. But the mistake (whether it was yours or ours) was understandable because the Dhamma is a profound subject that everyone finds very hard to grasp, and communicating whatever grasp we have of it is not easy either. I like the explanation, "Citta experiences an object." Others prefer, "Citta is the experiencing of an object." That doesn't seem quite right to me (it seems like saying citta is the function of citta) but apparently the texts allow both definitions. But what about, "Citta is the experience of an object?" Is that also true according to the texts? In my opinion, an experience is the moment in which citta, cetasikas and rupas arise together and perform their functions. So, unlike "experiencing" an experience is not a single dhamma. It is more of a concept of dhammas. ----------------------------- L: > However, another way of understanding this just occurred to me. It might be that visual experience is contact; in other words the coming together of object, sensitive matter, and eye consciousness. That would lend some credence to the presence of object in 5-door consciousness. But I still think we have to say this experience is different from the rupa. ------------------------------- Of course citta (or phassa, or whatever nama is being called "experience") is different from its rupa object. But I think you mean something more complicated than that, don't you? I think you are trying to visualise experience, and you see that it is not the same as the object being experienced. --------------------------------------- L: > Anyone who wears glasses knows this. --------------------------------------- I am not sure what the Abhidhamma has to say about poor eyesight. It has been discussed on DSG (what hasn't?) but I don't remember. When a person is vision-impaired, does eye-consciousness occur in a weakened form, or does it occur in the usual form but less frequently? ------------------------------------------------------- L: > That would give us an extra dhamma, but in this case the extra dhamma is contact, which in this explanation we are calling visual experience. For mind-door consciousness, I don't think desire ever arises exactly _with_ its object. It doesn't really make sense to me to say desire experiences a flavour rupa or a taste sensation or a feeling. Desire is just the experience of desire, but it is linked by the force of conditioning to a previous experience as object. Because consciousnesses arise one at a time they can't interact directly; they can only react sequentially. -------------------------------------------------------- Now you are definitely straying too far from the texts. Lobha must be understood as a cetasika that experiences an object and performs other functions as well (functions of clinging etc). Lobha, itself, is not experienced when it arises. It *may* become the object of a subsequent mind-door consciousness, but it may not too. In any case (experienced or not experienced), it performs its functions and has conditioning effects on other dhammas. -------------------------------------------- L: > This raises the question, what about insight? Doesn't insight (pa~n~naa) have a co-present object? If not, then what is the experience that is insight? --------------------------------------------- Just like lobha, panna experiences an object and performs other functions as well. ---------------------------------------------------------------- L: > When we are very still we can experience the arising and falling away of akusala cittas. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Nonsense! I'm sorry, but satipatthana is a matter of understanding - it is not a matter of sitting still or any other . . . nonsense. :-) ------------------------------------ L: > Darting in and out of this flow is understanding which is something different and not really co-present. Also, the stillness is something different and not co-present. ------------------------------------ I think you should stick to the texts, Larry. :-) Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi again Ken, > > I would like to clarify one point below: > > K: "I think I get the picture. Using my own numbering system: you and > Larry are convinced that there must be more than (1) eye consciousness, > (2) visible object and (3) contact between eye consciousness and visible > object. You believe there must be an element of "visual experience." > Larry sees visual experience as an addition to the above three dhammas, > while you see it as an alternative. That alternative is a merger of > eye-consciousness and eye-object. So there is neither a dhamma that sees > nor a dhamma that is seen. (Nor, perhaps a dhamma that is contact, but > let's not worry about than now.)" > #66064 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:21 am Subject: Analysis of Faith ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: What is the Mental Mechanics of Evolving Faith? In how many aspects is the Ability of Faith purified? The Ability of Faith is purified on these three occasions: 1: When one avoids Faithless persons, 2: When one cultivates, visits and respects Faithful persons, 3: When one study & reviews Suttas that inspire confidence. Then the Faith Ability is purified by these three methods... Using Faith as an Instrument, Enzyme, & Elevator within the: Way to Stream Entry contained in frequenting good men; Way to Stream Entry contained in hearing the True Dhamma; Way to Stream Entry contained in rational attention; Way to Stream Entry contained in praxis according with Dhamma: The Faith Ability is found within resolute determined devotion; The Energy Ability is found within exerted enthusiastic effort; The Awareness Ability is found within acute attentive presence; The Concentration Ability is found within focused non-distraction; The Understanding Ability is found within penetrating seeing. Through the Faith Ability all the 5 Abilities are thus found among the 4 factors of stream entry in these mutually enhancing ways. Evaporating the opposing state: Sceptical Doubt in Enlightenment: When one ends sceptical doubt, one is expanding the Faith Ability. When one is enlarging the Faith Ability, one stops sceptical doubt. Source: The Canonical: Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga. IV. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #66065 From: "icarofranca" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:26 am Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka icarofranca Hi Larry! > Icaro!!! > > Good to see you. How is life treating you these days? Still in the > military? My assingment as Engineer-lieutennant had a temporary role - I was a QCOA (translating, I was at the Board of Air Force Complementary Officers). I've just completed my regular term at Air Force and resigned. Now I am a retired lieutennant, looking forward for a seat at the Brazillian Council for Nuclear Energy...not so easy, but my CV is very strong for his task! Life neither treats or ill-treats me, dear Larry. I treat life at the best instead - even at an Anatta basis! Mettaya and warm regards! Ã?caro #66066 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nimitta sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Azita), As I was walking to the beach the 'nimitta track' (15A-a) came round again as Phil would say and I think our two little mysteries may have been solved. --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Kh. Sujin: "Pa~n~na knows everything just past" ... S: I heard it as "Pa~n~na knows everything just pass", meaning at the 3rd stage of insight being referred to, the arising and falling away of dhammas is penetrated. 'Everything just passes'. .... <...> > This contrasts her earlier statements: "When the pa~n~na cannot > penetrate the arising and falling away, its nimitta", and, "As long as > it arises there must be nimitta of that which has arisen." .... S: Yes, the contrast is between the direct understanding/penetration of (the arising and falling away of) the realities themselves with the nimitta of those realities before that stage. .... > Sarah asked about whether nimitta 'becomes stronger.' What do you > think? I think nimitta is nimitta, no stronger or weaker, until it is > seen differently. .... S: OK, I thought it didn't ring a bell- it was Azita's comment/question, so I'll pass this one on to her now:-). [Linguists would say - check the different vowel sounds in the different accents. Azita has a very Aussie accent:-)] Metta, Sarah ========= #66067 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] processes of cittas. nilovg Dear Scott and all interested at seeing, The words below from Kom are to me the clue. Reasoning about t.v. screen, pixels etc. is thinking, not seeing. Kh Sujin would say: seeing is just now. We should not make it so complicated, but I must admit that I was inclined to do so before. We should find out for ourselves what is helpful and what is not. Nina. Op 11-dec-2006, om 23:49 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Can we > take anything we see to be something else besides what is seen? #66068 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member- Kristin intro nilovg Dear Kristin, Welcome here. You studied for three years. What do you find particularly helpful of the Dhamma? What attracted you? Nina. Op 11-dec-2006, om 19:59 heeft KRISTIN het volgende geschreven: > My name is Kristin. #66069 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:58 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 607- Wholesome Deeds(d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd As regards the first “base” or way of kusala, generosity, this is the giving away of useful things or things which give pleasure. True generosity is difficult; while we are giving, there are not kusala cittas all the time, and our motives for giving may not all be pure. Akusala cittas tend to arise in between the kusala cittas, for example, when we wish for a pleasant result, such as a happy rebirth or a good name. We may give because we like to be popular, or we may give with attachment to the receiver. We may give out of fear, we are afraid of other people’s opinion and hope to gain their favours by our gifts. Stinginess may arise, we regret getting rid of our money. We understand that we cannot take our possessions with us when we die, but since we have accumulated stinginess it tends to arise. We should remember that life is short and that when there is an opportunity for giving we should use it in order to combat selfishness. In this way the inclination to generosity can be accumulated. We read in the Commentary to the “Cariyåpiìaka” (the “Paramatthadípaní VII)(1), which deals with the “perfections” the Bodhisatta accumulated, that the Bodhisatta considered the perfection of generosity as follows: * "Surely, I have not been accustomed to giving in the past, therefore a desire to give does not arise now in my mind. So that my mind will delight in giving in the future, I will give a gift. With an eye for the future let me now relinquish what I have to those in need." * Further on we read in the same commentary: * "When the Great Being is giving a gift, and he sees the loss of the object being given, he reflects thus: “This is the nature of material possessions, that they are subject to loss and to passing away. Moreover, it is because I did not give such gifts in the past that my possessions are now depleted. Let me then give whatever I have as a gift, whether it be limited or abundant. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving.” *** 1) Translated by Ven. Bodhi, included in The All-embracing Net of View, the Brahmajåla Sutta and its commentaries, B.P.S. Kandy, p. 322. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66070 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:59 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 607- Wholesome Deeds(d) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd As regards the first “base” or way of kusala, generosity, this is the giving away of useful things or things which give pleasure. True generosity is difficult; while we are giving, there are not kusala cittas all the time, and our motives for giving may not all be pure. Akusala cittas tend to arise in between the kusala cittas, for example, when we wish for a pleasant result, such as a happy rebirth or a good name. We may give because we like to be popular, or we may give with attachment to the receiver. We may give out of fear, we are afraid of other people’s opinion and hope to gain their favours by our gifts. Stinginess may arise, we regret getting rid of our money. We understand that we cannot take our possessions with us when we die, but since we have accumulated stinginess it tends to arise. We should remember that life is short and that when there is an opportunity for giving we should use it in order to combat selfishness. In this way the inclination to generosity can be accumulated. We read in the Commentary to the “Cariyåpiìaka” (the “Paramatthadípaní VII)(1), which deals with the “perfections” the Bodhisatta accumulated, that the Bodhisatta considered the perfection of generosity as follows: * "Surely, I have not been accustomed to giving in the past, therefore a desire to give does not arise now in my mind. So that my mind will delight in giving in the future, I will give a gift. With an eye for the future let me now relinquish what I have to those in need." * Further on we read in the same commentary: * "When the Great Being is giving a gift, and he sees the loss of the object being given, he reflects thus: “This is the nature of material possessions, that they are subject to loss and to passing away. Moreover, it is because I did not give such gifts in the past that my possessions are now depleted. Let me then give whatever I have as a gift, whether it be limited or abundant. In that way I will, in the future, reach the peak in the perfection of giving.” *** 1) Translated by Ven. Bodhi, included in The All-embracing Net of View, the Brahmajåla Sutta and its commentaries, B.P.S. Kandy, p. 322. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66071 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] processes of cittas. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you. N: "The words below from Kom are to me the clue. Reasoning about t.v. screen, pixels etc. is thinking, not seeing." This is true. N: "Kh Sujin would say: seeing is just now. We should not make it so complicated, but I must admit that I was inclined to do so before. We should find out for ourselves what is helpful and what is not." Also true. Sincerely, Scott. #66072 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nimitta scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thank you, Sherlock: S: "...I think our two little mysteries may have been solved...I heard it as "Pa~n~na knows everything just pass", meaning at the 3rd stage of insight being referred to, the arising and falling away of dhammas is penetrated. 'Everything just passes'...the contrast is between the direct understanding/penetration of (the arising and falling away of) the realities themselves with the nimitta of those realities before that stage." Got it. S: "OK, I thought it didn't ring a bell- it was Azita's comment/question...Linguists would say - check the different vowel sounds in the different accents. Azita has a very Aussie accent..." So sorry Sarah; I'm colour blind... Sincerely, Scott. #66073 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:53 am Subject: House Builder? buddhatrue Hi All, The Buddha said upon awakening: Through the round of many births I roamed without reward, without rest, seeking the house-builder. Painful is birth again & again. House-builder, you're seen! You will not build a house again. All your rafters broken, the ridge pole destroyed, gone to the Unformed, the mind has come to the end of craving. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.11.than.html#dhp- 153 Who is the Buddha addressing? Who is the 'house-builder'? Any thoughts? Metta, James #66074 From: han tun Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 4:56 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 606- Wholesome Deeds (c) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah and all, In this post the “ten bases of meritorious deeds” (pu~n~nakiriya-vatthus) are listed. They can be grouped into three groups, namely, generosity (daana) group, morality (siila) group, and mental development (bhaavanaa) group. As the presentation proceeds the reader will know which base of meritorious deeds belongs to which group. But I think it will be useful if we know the grouping even at this stage. The three groups are as follows. Generosity (daana) Group 1) charity or generosity (daana) 2) sharing one’s merit (pattidaana) 3) thanksgiving or appreciation of someone else’s good deeds (pattaanumodana) Morality (siila) Group 1) virtue or morality (siila) 2) respect (pacaayana) 3) dutifulness or helpfulness (veyaavacca) Mental development (bhaavanaa) Group 1) culture or mental development (bhaavanaa) 2) teaching Dhamma (dhamma-desanaa) 3) listening to Dhamma(dhamma-savana) 4) rectification of opinion (correction of one’s views) (ditthijjukamma) It is to be noted that although the rectification of opinion (correction of one’s views) (ditthijjukamma) is listed in mental development (bhaavanaa) group, actually it may be included in all three groups, because one will perform daana, siila and bhaavanaa only if one has the right view about kamma and its effect. Respectfully, Han #66075 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Larry) - In a message dated 12/12/06 12:52:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > I like the explanation, "Citta experiences an object." Others prefer, > "Citta is the experiencing of an object." That doesn't seem quite > right to me (it seems like saying citta is the function of citta) but > apparently the texts allow both definitions. > =================== If you'll forgive me, Ken, it seems to me that you are strongly of a mindset (which all of us share to some degree), that there must be agents/doers - and by that terminology, I don't mean necessarily "persons". You seem to need "things that do or act or think", whereas it is quite possible, I can att est, to come to see the possibility of there just being occurrences, events, and conditions. From this perspective, instead of things that are aware (i.e., that are conscious of an object), there is just arising & ceasing awareness. Instead of something that feels (as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral), there is just the (activity of) feeling. With metta, Howard #66076 From: han tun Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] House Builder? hantun1 Dear James, These are Verse 153 and Verse 154 of Dhammapada. The Buddha was not addressing to anybody in particular. These are the "Words of Exultation of the Buddha" - the expressions of intense and sublime joy felt by the Buddha at the moment of attainment of Supreme Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana). These verses were repeated at the Jetavana monastery at the request of the Venerable Ananda. The house-builder is tanhaa. The Pali text of the verses are as follows: 153 Anekajaati samsaaram sandhaavissam anibbisam Gahakaaram gavesanto dukkhaa jaati punappunam 154 Gahakaaraka dittho’ si puna geham na kaahasi Sabbaa te phaasukaa bhaggaa gahakuutam visankhatam Visankhaaragatam cittam tanhaanam khaya majjhagaa Respectfully, Han --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi All, > > The Buddha said upon awakening: > > Through the round of many births I roamed > without reward, > without rest, > seeking the house-builder. > Painful is birth > again & again. > > House-builder, you're seen! > You will not build a house again. > All your rafters broken, > the ridge pole destroyed, > gone to the Unformed, the mind > has come to the end of craving. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.11.than.html#dhp- > 153 > > Who is the Buddha addressing? Who is the > 'house-builder'? Any > thoughts? > > Metta, > James > > > #66077 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] House Builder? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 12/12/06 8:02:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi All, > > The Buddha said upon awakening: > > Through the round of many births I roamed > without reward, > without rest, > seeking the house-builder. > Painful is birth > again &again. > > House-builder, you're seen! > You will not build a house again. > All your rafters broken, > the ridge pole destroyed, > gone to the Unformed, the mind > has come to the end of craving. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.11.than.html#dhp- > 153 > > Who is the Buddha addressing? Who is the 'house-builder'? Any > thoughts? > > Metta, > James > ======================= I've always assumed that the answer lies in the last clause, namely craving (based in ignorance). It is, as I see it, the craving and clinging of a mind that senses self in the empirical person and in phenomena that builds our prison-house, and the demolishing of the ridgepole of ignorance (the already-in-place centerpiece of the house) and the resulting total relinquishment of craving and attachment destroy the entire edifice. I'm sure there must be commentaries, ancient & modern, on this, and I might well be wrong in my interpretation. With metta, Howard #66078 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 606- Wholesome Deeds (c) nilovg Dear Han, thank you for enumerating the kinds of kusala. Kh Sujin's book I translated (see Zolag) is also helpful. There are many ways of kusala one would not have thought of. It helps to know of them, one finds more opportunities for kusala. One may not know that politeness and respect are kusala, one may overlook these ways of kusala. And the last one, as you say, pertains to all ten. Someone may not know that kusala is beneficial and akusala dangerous, but through the Dhamma he can rectify his view. Nina. Op 12-dec-2006, om 13:56 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > It is to be noted that although the rectification of > opinion (correction of one’s views) (ditthijjukamma) > is listed in mental development (bhaavanaa) group, > actually it may be included in all three groups, > because one will perform daana, siila and bhaavanaa > only if one has the right view about kamma and its > effect. #66079 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio nilovg Dear Han, As I understood, the other vipallasas are included here, not just ditthivipallasa. We see something as permanent, as pleasant, as beautiful. Nina. Op 11-dec-2006, om 22:07 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > If I understand you correctly, attavaadupaadaana means > sakkaya-ditthi plus ditthi-vipallaasa. > I would have thought ditthi-vipallaasa to be more akin > with ditthupaadaana. #66080 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:00 am Subject: Re: House Builder? nidive Hi James, > The Buddha said upon awakening: > > Through the round of many births I roamed > without reward, > without rest, > seeking the house-builder. > Painful is birth > again & again. > > House-builder, you're seen! > You will not build a house again. > All your rafters broken, > the ridge pole destroyed, > gone to the Unformed, the mind > has come to the end of craving. > > Who is the Buddha addressing? Who is the 'house-builder'? Any > thoughts? I think the Buddha is 'addressing' Ignorance. So the 'house-builder' is Ignorance. The 'house' is this very existence with its eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and intellect. Painful indeed is building this 'house' again and again through the many rounds of rebirth. And how does Ignorance build this 'house' again and again? Just this way: "And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. And how does one see the house-builder such that its rafters are broken and its ridge pole destroyed? Just this way: "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." Whoever penetrates Dependent Co-arising first in forward order and then in reverse order sees the Buddha! Whoever penetrates Dependent Co-arising first in forward order and then in reverse order penetrates the Four Noble Truths! Whoever penetrates the Four Noble Truths shatters quite a mass of Ignorance! Swee Boon #66081 From: han tun Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for the clarification. Respectfully, Han #66082 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas. upasaka_howard Hi again, Mike - In a message dated 12/11/06 5:42:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Your "pixel" idea I seem to recall was expressed by someone else a > couple years back, maybe Larry, and the person was told that, no, it isn't > that > way. I kind of doubt the pixel-at-a-time approach, myself. > ====================== On second thought, I think it may have been Rob Moult who had the same idea as you, not Larry. With metta, Howard #66083 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:41 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 149 nilovg Dear friends, Those who see the disadvantages of sense-impressions may cultivate jhåna; they can be reborn in higher heavenly planes which are not sensuous planes. Those who attain rúpa-jhåna can be reborn in rúpa- brahma-planes where there are less sense-impressions. There are sixteen rúpa-brahma planes in all. One of them is the asañña-satta plane where there is only rúpa, not nåma. Those who have attained the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna and who wish to have no consciousness at all, can be reborn without citta; for them there is only a body. These beings have seen the disadvantages of consciousness; even happiness is a disadvantage, since it does not last. Those who see the disadvantages of rúpa cultivate arúpa-jhåna. If they attain arúpa-jhåna they can be reborn in arúpa-brahma planes where there is no rúpa. There are four classes of arúpa-brahma planes. Beings born in these planes have only nåma, not rúpa. One may wonder how there can be beings which only have rúpa or beings which only have nåma. When right understanding of nåma and rúpa has been developed realities will be seen as only elements which arise because of conditions, not a being, not a person, no self. Then there will be no doubt that, under the appropriate conditions, there can be rúpa without nåma and nåma without rúpa. There are thirty-one classes of planes of existence in all, namely: 4 woeful planes | 1 human plane | 11 sensuous planes 6 deva planes | 16 rúpa-brahma planes 4 arúpa-brahma planes We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Sevens, chapter VI, §9a, Amity) about the value of wholesome deeds. They can bring pleasant results for a long time and cause birth in different happy planes. We read that the Buddha told the monks about his births in different happy planes. The Buddha said: 'Monks, be not afraid of deeds of merit. It is a name for happiness, that is, meritorious deeds. For well I know, monks, that deeds of merit done for a long time have a ripening, a blossoming, which is pleasing, joyous and lovely for a long time. For seven years I fostered thoughts of amity, and then for seven ages of the world's rolling on and rolling back I came not again to this world. Then when the world rolled on, I reached the sphere of Radiance; then when the world rolled back, I won to Brahmå's empty palace. Then, monks, I became Brahmå, great Brahmå, the conqueror, unconquered, all-seeing, all-powerful. Thirty-six times I was Sakka, the deva-king. Many times seven was I a Wheel-turning rajah, just, righteous, conquering the four ends of the earth, bringing stability to the country, possessing the seven gems...' ***** Nina. #66084 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:47 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana III, 2 nilovg Dear friends, (continuation of quote from 'Be here now', by Alan Driver): "...Ask yourself, do you really want to be aware or do you want calm? We just go on perpetuating the illusion of a self who has got a job to do and who wants to do it and does not like distraction which gets in the way of doing the job. That is not right understanding at all. It is a cause for more frustration when distraction arises. When there is satipaììhåna you are not thrown off balance by distraction. You are just aware and then there can be awareness of what appears next. There can be awareness and right understanding of what has already appeared by conditions, which is not self. Only for one moment though. And then there may be a whole lot of distraction. We can't do anything about it, it is anattå. If there is awareness at that moment something has been done al ready. It is anattå. Developing awareness. I don't think it is what we really want to do at all. We don't have the inclination, deep down we are not really interested very often. Only at a moment of right understanding is there any interest, right interest in the object that appears, in order to see it as it really is. We are always looking for some other object, trying to change it or make it last. That is attachment, not detachment." If we are honest with ourselves we shall notice when we are diverted from the right Path in choosing another goal, such as the gaining of kusala for ourselves. I am grateful for being reminded of the true goal. There should be detachment from the very beginning. When there is a moment of awareness of realities such as hardness or sound, are we pleased? Do we cling to "my awareness"? We should not be concerned about having awareness, our foremost goal is developing understanding. When heat appears it can be known as rúpa, a reality which does not experience anything. It is not part of "my body", it is not "mine". We never know what reality will appear next, a reality which is pleasant, unpleasant, kusala or akusala. If we try to direct sati to this object first and then to that, for example to rúpas appearing in the body or to feelings, there is again an idea of self and we shall never understand that sati is anattå. Someone wrote that a teacher in a meditation center told people to get rid of akusala as soon as possible. When it arises one should concentrate more deeply on particular realities such as feelings. He also said that one burns up old kamma by the accumulation of kusala cittas while one is practising vipassanå. Akusala kamma is past already and we cannot prevent it from producing its result. The ariyan who has attained enlightenment has no more conditions for an unhappy rebirth, but he still receives unpleasant results through the senses in the course of his life. We cannot know which kamma produces which result at a particular moment, only a Buddha can know this. There were countless lives in the past with countless akusala kammas. Who can claim that he can accumulate a great deal of kusala and can burn up old kamma? When we are having such thoughts we are clinging to the accumulation of kusala, we are again off the right Path. ******* Nina. #66085 From: "m_nease" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:58 am Subject: Re: processes of cittas. m_nease Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott and all interested at seeing, > > The words below from Kom are to me the clue. > Reasoning about t.v. screen, pixels etc. is thinking, not seeing. Kh > Sujin would say: seeing is just now. We should not make it so > complicated, but I must admit that I was inclined to do so before. We > should find out for ourselves what is helpful and what is not. > Nina. You're right of course. I'll keep my musings, complications etc. off-list in the future. Thanks Again, mike #66086 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas. nilovg Hi Mike, No, no, don't, don't. Nina. Op 12-dec-2006, om 19:58 heeft m_nease het volgende geschreven: > You're right of course. I'll keep my musings, complications etc. > off-list in the future. #66087 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas. upasaka_howard Hi, Mike (and Nina) - In a message dated 12/12/06 2:07:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlnease@... writes: > You're right of course. I'll keep my musings, complications etc. > off-list in the future. > ====================== I hope you do not keep them off-list. I believe we benefit from "musings", the discussion of them, and tipitaka and commentarial material relevant to the subject that scholars here can put forward. When our musings "go astray", we benefit from the feedback of knowledgable Dhamma friends, but without getting feedback, we might just get further mired in incorrect views. On the other hand, when our musings are more a matter of good insight than mere proliferation, discussing them can benefit ourselves and others. With metta, Howard #66088 From: "m_nease" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas. m_nease Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Mike (and Scott, Nins, and Han) - > It seems so coincidental to me that I was thinking about "sights" or > "scenes" today, myself! ;-) > Your "pixel" idea I seem to recall was expressed by someone else a > couple years back, maybe Larry, and the person was told that, no, it isn't that > way. I kind of doubt the pixel-at-a-time approach, myself. > In any case, if it is not that way, but instead an entire "scene" or > "color mosaic" appears at once as a single visual rupa, then it seems to me, > and this is what I was thinking about today, that there are. within that visual > rupa, relational patterns that are actually "there" awaiting discovery or > "carving out" by higher-level sa~n~na and further sankharic processing. That is > why, I believe, we "see" trees and grass and birds and clouds and so on, as part > of "the scene". The relational patterns are not imagined, but are actual, > though they are not paramattha dhammas, requiring, as they do, that further > mental processing for their cognizing. > If your pixel-at-a-time idea is correct, the mental processing, it > seems to me, would be far more complex, relying on a far more complicated use of > memory, and a huge sorting out of different sense-door "scintillas", not > mixing the different media data in the sa~n~nic and sankharic processing required > for cognition in its entirety. Thanks for your very thoughtful (as always) comments--to be honest, I think they're more than a little over my head. You're probably right about all of this and at any rate I think I've written too much already Best Wishes, mike. #66089 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 7:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas. upasaka_howard Hi, Mike - In a message dated 12/12/06 3:08:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, mlnease@... writes: > Thanks for your very thoughtful (as always) comments > ----------------------------------- Howard: Nice of you to say that. :-) --------------------------------- --to be honest, I> > think they're more than a little over my head. > --------------------------------- Howard: I doubt that very much. What is probably the case is that I'm being long winded (as always!) ;-) ----------------------------- You're probably right> > about all of this and at any rate I think I've written too much already ------------------------------- Howard: I don't know whether I'm right or not - at least I'm not certain. In any case, please don't put yourself down by saying "I think I've written too much already"! That is unfair to yourself, invalid, and, I'll remind you, sort of a (reverse) conceit. ;-) --------------------------------- > > Best Wishes, > > mike. > ================= With metta, Howard #66090 From: "KRISTIN" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member- Kristin intro pfoceans77 You studied for three years. What do you find particularly helpful of the Dhamma? What attracted you? Nina. Dear Nina and Icaro and everyone else, Thanks for the warm welcome. To Nina's question's...After not practicing Catholicism for at least 5 years, I felt a need to regain some type of spirituality other that being Catholic. Soon after that my Grandfather, who I was very close to, died somewhat unexpectedly and it took quite a toll on my emotions. I think at that point I had already read a little bit about Buddhism and other religions including Wicca, and Kaballah. The Buddhist view of death and the importance of accepting it really intrigued me. Not only was I reading them to regain spirituality but also to expand my knowledge in general. I was also reading a book called "The History of God" which I was never able to finish. In case you haven't heard of it, it looks at the History of God through Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. I must say though, being a solitary Buddhist is a bit difficult for me. Especially starting to meditate. I also have problems just retaining all the information I have read. So while I have studied for 3 years I haven't gotten too far past the "beginner" (for lack of a better word) stage. Well, have a wonderful week all with metta, Kristin #66091 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:51 am Subject: Paticcasamupada chandrafabian Dear Nina, Sarah and all friends, I have a some question about Paticcasamupada, is it experienced by Sotapanna only? And is it true that, all stages in paticcasamupada were experienced backwards by meditator? A meditator explain to me if a meditator can see sankhara arises from hadayavatthu, the whole process (sankhara)would eventually stopped producing temporarily and he enter magga nana and experienced Nibbana for the first time? Thank you, respectfully yours, Fabian #66092 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:34 am Subject: Re: Letters on VIpassana III, 1 chandrafabian Dear Nina, Reading from your article I believe you are not only learning theories, but also practicing Vipassana, but I am not yet sure you are practicing direct Vipassana or indirect (through samatha) vipassana. True, most meditator did not understand every distraction or unpleasant feeling would help their understanding growing, they just wish they get calmness or happiness when practicing Vipassana, that is why, some of my friends are disappointed when their mind get distaracted with many kind of changes, alternately sometimes peaceful (only short duration) and then distracted again. Sometimes pleasant and sometimes unpleasant (pain, boring etc). Not too many people who meditate understand unpleasant feeling is a good experience which help our understanding grows. With metta, Fabian #66093 From: "m_nease" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 5:25 pm Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 606- Wholesome Deeds (c) m_nease Hi Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > Generosity (daana) Group > 1) charity or generosity (daana) > 2) sharing one's merit (pattidaana) > 3) thanksgiving or appreciation of someone else's good > deeds (pattaanumodana) > > Morality (siila) Group > 1) virtue or morality (siila) > 2) respect (pacaayana) > 3) dutifulness or helpfulness (veyaavacca) > > Mental development (bhaavanaa) Group > 1) culture or mental development (bhaavanaa) > 2) teaching Dhamma (dhamma-desanaa) > 3) listening to Dhamma(dhamma-savana) > 4) rectification of opinion (correction of one's > views) (ditthijjukamma) > > It is to be noted that although the rectification of > opinion (correction of one's views) (ditthijjukamma) > is listed in mental development (bhaavanaa) group, > actually it may be included in all three groups, > because one will perform daana, siila and bhaavanaa > only if one has the right view about kamma and its > effect. Good and helpful reminders IMHO. I especially like the emphasis on ditthijjukamma, which I read of the first time on dsg. It is the only (good) reason I'm here. mike #66094 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] House Builder? scottduncan2 Dear Han (and James), Thank you very much for your post. And, especially I very much appreciate that you give the Paali. This is the way I like to try to understand the meaning of any given passage. I'd just copied out the Paali and was about to transcribe it when, behold, your post appeared and saved me the trouble! H: "The house-builder is tanhaa." Given the Paali, this is the answer. I concur with you. 153 Anekajaati samsaara.m sandhaavissa.m anibbisa.m Gahakaara.m gavesanto dukkhaa jaati punappuna.m 154 Gahakaaraka di.t.thosi puna geha.m na kaahasi Sabbaa te phaasukaa bhaggaa gahakuuta.m visankhata.m Visankhaaragata.m citta.m tanhaana.m khaya majjhagaa In the phrase 'visankhaaragata.m citta.m tanhaana.m khayamajjhagaa' it shows that it is craving that withers and is dispensed with. Its also interesting that while 'gaha' means house, it has a secondary meaning, I see, of 'seizing and grasping' which is a very intricate play on words. This also confirms that, indeed, the passage is referring to 'tanhaa'. The Paali is indeed the language of the Buddha. Sincerely, Scott. #66095 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka lbidd2 Hi Ken, A few snippets: K: "I like the explanation, "Citta experiences an object." " L: I think I prefer "an object conditions the arising of every consciousness". This yields an implicit subject/object dualism where the subject is an implicit self _unless_ we know better. K: "Of course citta (or phassa, or whatever nama is being called "experience") is different from its rupa object. But I think you mean something more complicated than that, don't you?" L: No, that's it. If rupa is different from experience then rupa isn't an experience. K: "I am not sure what the Abhidhamma has to say about poor eyesight. It has been discussed on DSG (what hasn't?) but I don't remember. When a person is vision-impaired, does eye-consciousness occur in a weakened form, or does it occur in the usual form but less frequently?" L: What I was going for is that putting on glasses doesn't change the reality of visual data. It changes the visual experience. One might well say it changes kamma result. K: "Lobha, itself, is not experienced when it arises." L: What makes you think so? I think this is a case where the idea "consciousness experiences an object" becomes a problem. We end up with experience being the object. So when insight experiences desire, the experience is desire. I must have a lot of insight ;-)) Larry #66096 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka lbidd2 Hi Icaro, Well, the nuclear energy committee certainly sounds interesting and I am sure they would appreciate some Buddhist wisdom. Let's start with dukkha! Larry #66097 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:43 pm Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka ken_aitch Hi Howard, ----------- H: > If you'll forgive me, Ken, it seems to me that you are strongly of a mindset (which all of us share to some degree), that there must be agents/doers - and by that terminology, I don't mean necessarily "persons". You seem to need "things that do or act or think", whereas it is quite possible, I can at least, to come to see the possibility of there just being occurrences, events, and conditions. ------------ I agree it must be possible to see just occurrences, events and conditions. Otherwise, the ancient commentaries would not include the definition, "Citta is the experiencing of an object." But don't forget they also say, "Citta experiences an object." So, if you were to claim that the former definition nullified the latter I would have to object. Of course, I should also object if someone were to claim the latter nullified of the former, but I lack the commitment on that point. :-) -------------------------------------- H: > From this perspective, instead of things that are aware (i.e., that are conscious of an object), there is just arising & ceasing awareness. --------------------------------------- "Instead of?" Shouldn't we be searching for a perspective that accepts both ways of defining citta? As we know, citta does not only experience an object. It also (for example) conditions other dhammas to arise with it and subsequently to it. It also bears the three basic characteristics. Of course, you would say it was the "conditioning" of those dhammas and the "bearing" of those characteristics, and that would be fine by me. But one way of putting it should not rule out the other. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken (and Larry) - > > In a message dated 12/12/06 12:52:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, > ken_aitch@... writes: > > > I like the explanation, "Citta experiences an object." Others prefer, > > "Citta is the experiencing of an object." That doesn't seem quite > > right to me (it seems like saying citta is the function of citta) but > > apparently the texts allow both definitions. > > #66098 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 8:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member- Kristin intro lbidd2 Hi Kristin, Welcome to the group. This is mostly a reading and listening group focused on what is really really really happening. And also on what we think is happening but isn't really. If I may, I'd like to comment on a couple of things you wrote: K: "The Buddhist view of death and the importance of accepting it really intrigued me." L: On one level, every consciousness lives and dies in the blink of an eye. Accepting every moment is choiceless. It just happens. K: "I must say though, being a solitary Buddhist is a bit difficult for me. Especially starting to meditate. I also have problems just retaining all the information I have read." L: Just accept it. When the mind wanders and the back aches, just accept it. When you forget everything and nothing makes sense, just accept it. Nothing is lost, everything accumulates. Before you know it you will be gone (awake). Larry #66099 From: han tun Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] House Builder? hantun1 Dear Scott, Thank you very much for writing Pali words correctly. Your interpretations are also excellent. In Burma these verses are frequently heard chanting by the monks. When we buy a Buddha statue from the market we requested the monks to do something before we put the statue on the home altar. I do not know how to say in English; we call it “anekajaatinthii” in Burmese. Five monks worship the statue chanting Pali verses starting with the above two verses, then followed by 3 Bodhi suttas (on Dependent Origination) from Udaana, followed by Patthaana, and followed by some Parittas. The idea is to instill Buddha’s blessings into the statue so that we can worship it as Buddha himself. During these occasions the monks explain the meaning of these verses to us, and the explanation given is the same as you have interpreted. Respectfully, Han #66100 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:37 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 608- Wholesome Deeds(e) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd The Atthasåliní explains in the section on “charity”, that there can be volition (kamma) which is kusala before the actual giving, namely when one produces the things to be given, at the time of making the gift, and afterwards when one recollects it “with joyful heart”. Thus, giving can be an occasion for kusala cittas in three different periods: before, during and after the giving. It is useful to know that we can recollect our giving afterwards with kusala citta. However, we have to know the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta, otherwise we are likely to take attachment to our kusala or to the pleasant feeling which may arise for kusala. When we are honest with ourselves we can notice that before, during and after the giving there are not kusala cittas all the time, that there are also akusala cittas arising. Instead of being discouraged about akusala there can be mindfulness of it. This is the way to know that it is only a conditioned reality, not self. Before the actual giving we may get tired when we have to buy or prepare the gift and then aversion is likely to arise. While we are giving the gift the receiver may be ungrateful and not respond to our gift in the way we expected and then we may be disappointed. However, when we have right understanding of what kusala is we will be less inclined to mind the reactions of someone else. Kusala is kusala and nobody can change the kusala citta which arises. Before we learnt about the Buddha’s teachings we did not consider generosity in this way. We used to pay attention merely to the outward appearance of deeds, we thought of people, of their reactions. Through the Dhamma we learn to investigate the cittas which motivate our deeds, we learn to see realities as they are. Also the recollection of our generosity after the giving can be disturbed by the arising of defilements such as stinginess. Generosity can only become perfected through the development of right understanding of nåma and rúpa. The sotåpanna (streamwinner) has eradicated the wrong view of self and also stinginess. Thus he has perfect generosity, stinginess cannot arise again. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66101 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member- Kristin intro ken_aitch Hi Kristin, I will let you settle in before drawing you into any serious debates, so don't answer this message. :-) You wrote: "I must say though, being a solitary Buddhist is a bit difficult for me. Especially starting to meditate. I also have problems just retaining all the information I have read." Larry answered: "Just accept it. When the mind wanders and the back aches, just accept it. . . ." To add another perspective I would say there is no need for any formal practice such as sitting meditation. Studying and learning the Dhamma is the way to develop insight. So spare yourself the aches and pains. :-) Also, don't feel any obligation to study and learn the Dhamma: according to the Buddha the only world that matters (that is ultimately real) is contained in the present moment, which has already been conditioned to arise. My point is: if there is no enlightenment now (in your present-moment universe) that is because it was not among the dhammas that were conditioned to arise. It is too late to do anything about it. But remember, there is no you in this universe - there are only dhammas - so why should you want to do anything about it? Ken H #66102 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: groundhog reflections, sense of urgency sarahprocter... Hi James, Good to see you back! --- buddhatrue wrote: >I really wish that my feelings hadn't > been hurt…"I" wish this and "I" wish that…just more wishing from the > little, tiny, illusionary self. Just more drama from a drama queen ;- > )) just another tempest in a teacup. .... S: For some reason, I've been hearing about quite a few 'hurt feelings' recently (on and off-list), so you're not alone in this of course! Often there are misunderstandings - no one intending to cause any distress in any of the recent examples here. As you say, there's always wishing 'from the little, tiny, illusionary self':-). And I think we are all drama queens in our own ways, creating little tempests in teacups whilst 'our' world revolves around our wishes and expectations of others, forgetting what the real cause of our 'hurts' are and thinking it really is what someone else says or writes or does or doesn't do.... Thanks for being honest and sharing your feelings with us and also reminding us of the 'house-builder' at work again:-). I've found both to be good topics to reflect on. Metta, Sarah ======= #66103 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka sarahprocter... Hi Howard(Ken H, Larry & all), --- upasaka@... wrote: > > S: I think that when we appreciate that there are only dhammas > performing > > deeds, experiencing results and so on, there is no confusion about > 'done > > by whom?'. > ========================== > I've made the point before, Sarah: I don't think this is a good > way to > put this matter. Dhammas that would perform deeds, experience results, > and so > on would be "little selves". They would be agents. .... S: Yes, we've had this discussion many times. I'm glad Ken H has taken it up this time:-). I think he put it well in #65967. The point of stressing 'only dhammas' is to indicate that it's not a little self (or big self) or agent that performs any deed or experiences any result. Let's say cetana (a dhamma) performs a deed and let's say seeing consciousness (a vipaka dhamma) experiences a result. Cetana and seeing consciousness are both elements, both khandhas, both ayatanas, both namas. They EXIST! They arise and fall away. They have functions. Why does this make them 'little selves' or 'agents'? .... >There are no agents > that > do or experience. There are no doers or experiencers. There are just > instances > of doing and experiencing. .... S: There are just dhammas which arise, perform their functions and fall away. Without kamma, there'd be no vipaka: "There is no doer of a deed or one who reaps the deed's result Phenomena (dhamma) alone flow on - No other view than this is right. <....> "The kamma of its fruit is void; No fruit exists yet in the kamma; And still the fruit is born from it, Wholly depending on the kamma." (Vism X1X, 20) .... >Agent terminology is best avoided in order to > stop > atta from sneaking in the back door. ;-) .... S: When we read about kamma or cetana bearing fruit or dhammas rolling on or fruit/results being born from kamma, is this agent terminology? > > With metta, > Howard (just returned from Texas) .... S: Glad to see you back in good form! I'm sure you'll have had a great time with Sophie. ***** In your other part of the thread with Larry and others, you're continuing the discussion on 'unobserved rupas' and especially, visible data. How do you account for the colour of Sophie's hair when you're not even around to see it? Does this help?: "Colour, odour, taste, and nutritive Essence, and the four elements- From combination of these eight There comes the common usage head hairs; And separately from these eight There is no common usage head hairs." (Vism X1, 2) .... S: This isn't to suggest for a moment that the emphasis you give on the world to be known now or the emphasis in the Bahiya sutta about the seen and so on isn't all that matters when it comes to the development of insight. No conflict at all, as I see it. Metta, Sarah ======== #66104 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:35 am Subject: RE: [dsg] processes of cittas. sarahprocter... Dear Jm, I think 'Jayasinghe' must be your family name and 'Mudyanse' your given name. Is that correct? How can we address you? Are you from Sri Lanka? I like your question and following comments here" --- jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... wrote: > Dear Nina, > Appreciate your comments, > What ever giving is "dana" and merits are certain, but there is very > little > if such dana is given seeking pride, ego, popularity, wealth etc. .... S: Very true! .... > Also dana should be given out of honest earnings, (samma Kammantha) > Akusals comes under those dana of Alchohol, weapons, sex articles, body > displays etc, I heard. > may you blessed with triple gems ! .... S: You're obviously familiar with the Pali terms. There has also been more discussion on dana in the 'Cetasikas' thread. Do you have anything else to add to it? Please tell us a little more about your background. There are other quiet members from Sri Lanka here (some living overseas) and you may encourage them as well. Metta, Sarah ======== #66105 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:33 am Subject: Re: New Member- Kristin intro philofillet Dear Ken > My point is: if there is no enlightenment now (in your present-moment > universe) that is because it was not among the dhammas that were > conditioned to arise. It is too late to do anything about it. But > remember, there is no you in this universe - there are only dhammas - > so why should you want to do anything about it? Well Ken, Kristin will now be facing the very difficult decision of whether to listen to the Buddha or you! Good luck with that ever-so- difficult decision, Kristin! (And welcome to the group.) There are people who will tell you -in a very gentle and nice way - that meditating is the act of a deluded (moha-rooted) greedy (lobha-rooted) mindstream, and they will tell you that intending to make positive changes in your life in the light of the Dhamma is delusionary, and they will tell you that unless there is a penetrative kind of understanding of whatever dhamma is arising now, there can be no progress or brightening (thanks to the Dhamma) in one's life and in the lives of those we no longer do harm to (if that is happening, it is delusionary, see) but if you keep listening to other sources (any other source, actually) you will find that DSG is the *only* place in the Buddhist universe at which such views are expounded, and you won't go too far astray! I recommend the excellent series of talks that a DSG member (Thanks Matheesha!) linked us to, a series of talks that got me back on track, I think. Google "Bodhi Monastery" and you'll find talks by Bhikkhu Bodhi, the eminent translator of the Pali Canon. There is one series of talks on the Majhima Nikaya (Middle-Length Discourses) and another on the Dhamma as a whole. Phil p.s I know I'm just biting your bait here, Ken. You wanted some more controversy, probably - it was too quiet... p.p.s also, Kristin, despite my bitter sounding tone you will find wonderfully helpful and patient people here. Nina van Gorkom, one of the world's leading Abhidhamma authorities is a saint and the moderators are also incredibly kind and helpful despite their wonky views!!! :) #66106 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:44 am Subject: Yet another sign off from Phil yet again!! philofillet Hi all I came by to post a sign-off letter I wrote and saw Ken's latest post and add a little extra there as well! Here's the letter: I've decided to take leave of DSG for a period extending until January 2008. I am getting busy with the other projects, and I don' t see how I could possibly post at this time without getting involved in debates, which I simply don't have time or mental capacity for. Basically, the point I disagree with most at this time is the idea that understanding of anatta precedes the need to develop wholesome mental and behavioural habits whether they are accompanied by deep understanding or not, the idea that "there must be detachement from the beginning." Yes, there is alobha with every kusala citta, but I don't think this alobha represents "detachment from the beginning." I think there is too much trying to have deep understanding by applying the intellectual faculty (ie thinking) at least there was for me. This is all about me and where I'm at, nothing to do with where you're at because like it or not we are different in the degrees to which understanding has been developed, and the degrees to which the grossest of defilements still rage. I think I have a fairly solidly-grounded intellectual understanding that all that happens is due to impersonal process, but as for direct insight into anatta, that will come as the result of diligently practicing in the light of the Buddha's instructions, or not at all. In the meantime, I feel confident that sila will become more solidly founded, day by day, year by year, as I continue to train the mind in that direction using the methods offered by the Buddha. This clarifying of the surface of the mind that will result from cutting back on the feeding of the hindrances may indeed provide conditions for concentration to develop, and if that concentration provides conditions for insight to develop, so be it. There are some methods offered to make the development of concentration more likely but as for insight, the Buddha did not provide any instructions for that, as far as I know. Insight and the liberating detachment that comes with it arise as the result of diligent practice (with right understanding, of course – as Acharn Sujin astutely said, "we cannot have understanding by doing something without understanding) if they arise at all - they are most definitely out of our hands, no matter how faithfully we lay the groundwork in the way offered by the Buddha in his gradual training. If we try to have insight by thinking harder about anatta we will be fooling ourselves, I think – that's what I was doing when studying under Acharn Sujin – trying now and then through the day to deeply understand that this or that experience was made up of dhammas that are not-self, etc. The self at work in that operation was seeking comfort through this – I think it was no less hungry for emotional comfort than the self that sits to meditate and observes what comes without any expectations of insight. (So far, at least – that could change, greed could take over my meditation practice any day now.) I am referring only to what I was doing and thinking when studying under Acharn Sujin. That is me, not anyone else. We are all different, with different accumulated tendencies to greed and ignorance as well as to wisdom and detachment. I know that the former are very strong and dominating in "my" mindstream, and the latter very weak and nascent. The latter cannot be aroused intentionally and applied to the defilements, but a much more mundane mindfulness can and will be applied to challenge the rampant spiraling of the former. The Buddha teaches us how, and this teaching need not involve penetrative wisdom into anatta or liberating detachment of any kind. That will come later for me, maybe already a familiar thing for you, who knows – only you, not me. I know my own mindstream, and what is helpful for weakening the power of the gross defilements at work in it. Acharn Sujin doesn't, and neither do you. The Buddha could look and see what is best for me, but he's not around at the moment. Acharn Sujin is not the Buddha so she and her students should take care when dictating what is and isn't helpful Dhamma for people other than themselves. And they should ask themselves honestly if there is really detachment of any kind when they think about not wanting dhammas to be different etc or whether there is not in fact a whole lot of attachment and conceit about not having attachment. Probably there isn't, or they wouldn't have practiced so patiently under Acharn Sujin for so long. That faithful listening to her teaching suggests something very wholesome at work – if the listening was usually unwholesome and hungry-for-comfort, as it turned out to be for me, understanding would reveal it within a few years, I think. If I can take a shot at summarizing a few key points of Acharn Sujin's teaching, she says direct understanding can arise conditioned by a perfected intellectual understanding (pariyatti) without need to apply oneself diligently to intentionally training the mind in the way taught explicitly by the Buddha in his threefold training. She also says that in this day and age there there will necessarily be greed and wrong view of self if one follows the explicit guidance for training of the mind taught by the Buddha that will lead to it being an operation in futility. What she says make sense, in a way. However, I have never heard similar ideas anywhere else than at DSG. Not in any suttas that I've read, nor in the very little bit of the commentaries that I've read, nor have I heard it from Bhikkhu Bodhi or any of the numerous Burmese Sayadaws that I' ve listened to for hundreds of hours in the past couple of months. Since these Sayadaws teach a specific kind of meditation, they could be said to have an agenda to protect (I wouldn't say that, but I'm sure others would) but I don't think this is the case with Bhikkhu Bodhi, whose open-mindedness is demonstrated by his living at a non- Theravadin monastery even as he continues to faithfully translate the entire Pali canon. I've listened to hundreds of hours of his talks on Majhima Nikaya and the Dhamma in general and have never heard anything resembling Acharn Sujin's views. I would be very interested to hear anyone other than Acharn Sujin and her students say the kind of things she says. It could be that she is right and the rest of the Buddhist world is wrong – and I do not say that facetiously, it is quite possible and one should not be led blindly by even the most overwhelming of majorities – but I have to say that I have never heard anyone else say the things she says leaves me wary of her teaching. That could change, very easily. In a few years I could be back listening to her talks with keen attention. Absolutely. There is no telling which way understanding will twist and turn as it develops. (or de-develops as some will think mine has been doing! J It's hard to step away from this group for even a year, because there are friends here and I don't have many friends. But the distraction of debates and disagreements and perhaps even more importantly the desire to make points are turning out to be distractions to meditation, which is the most important Dhamma- related thing for me now, for the time being. That will or won't last, who knows? I'll be back in January 2008 to tell you how it's going! My apologies for a very crude description of how Acharn Sujin teaches. It seems very ungrateful when her teaching helped me so much in the last couple of years, in important ways. She's a great teacher for her longtime students, no doubt about that – her longtime students are at a different place than me – more developed understanding, I dare say, so there is not as much grabbing for insight in daily life as there was for me as a result to listening to her teaching. OK, off I go. I will think of you fondly in my time away. If anyone comes to Japan, contract me off-list as I would love to show you around. Phil #66107 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nimitta sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: Sarah: > - 'instead of thinking about dhamma to have better understanding, > we're thinking about ourselves - frustration and things. What about > understanding? That's all and the other realities have arisen > continuously all the time. It always shows clinging so much when one's > thinking of oneself in dhamma [study] or whatever.'" > Scott:> This helps me notice a rather deep attachment to 'my experience'. .... S: While we go on thinking about 'my' experiences, my understanding, my frustration at not getting it and so on, there isn't any understanding at any level of dhammas as dhammas. This is why detachment is stressed so much. .... >I > keep wondering about what it would be like to experience 'seeing' > under the influence of pa~n~na, for example. I used to imagine that > this would be somehow different than 'normal seeing'. ..... S: No, seeing is just the same seeing it's always been. Nothing special or different at all. Exactly the same experience which goes on all the time, but usually without any knowledge about it. So everything that's usually seen is still seen. I think like Howard said, otherwise sanna would not be able to mark or recall what is seen, what is distinct and so on. Visible object as just that which appears - nothing complicated about it. No idea of peripheries or pixels, for example. Just exactly what is seen now. ..... >Like that it > would be some sort of magical vision of little dots and colours > cascading or something. Too much Magical Mystery Tour. Pa~n~na isn't > acid after all. At any rate, its obvious that this sort of > day-dreaming is of no use. But it is some sort of attachment to result. .... Sarah: Yes, I think so. It also takes us off-track. I personally think that people make it far too complicated and ending up missing what appears now as we speak:-). Thx for all the good reflections, Scott and those you've inspired in others too. Metta, Sarah ======== #66108 From: han tun Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:08 am Subject: RE: [dsg] processes of cittas. hantun1 Dear JM (Dinesh), If you are interested in Dana, please read DSG threads as suggested by Sarah, and also the following articles if you have not yet read before. Dana: The Practice of Giving: Selected essays edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel367.html Metta, Han #66109 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yet another sign off from Phil yet again!! nilovg Hi Phil, I was happily surprised to hear from you again. No need to answer me, I hope your project is going fine. I think you bring your points in a sincere and sympathetic way. I do understand you when you speak out your heart in this way. It also gives me food to think over: in how far am I 'preaching' to others. Always good to keep that in mind. I a saint? Ha, ha, a joke. Lodewijk says: Phil should see your lobha when you eat good food. I an expert in Abhidhamma? Another joke. That 'detachment from the beginning' you refer to: I see it more as a reminder to investigate my cittas: in how far am I attached to me studying, me wanting to have sati, etc. Such reminders are helpful to me. I do understand that you like to listen to other teachings, and yes, Ven. Bodhi is without any pretences, not seeing himself as a meditation teacher. You can share later on (in Jan.) with us what you got from all the Sayadaws you listened to. Below is how you see Kh Sujin's teaching, but I am afraid some points you did not get. < a perfected intellectual understanding (pariyatti) without need to apply oneself diligently to intentionally trainingthe mind in the way taught explicitly by the Buddha in his threefold training.> I am now revising her perfections and all the time I come across training, practising all the perfections, time and again. Intellectual understanding is not enough. We have to see in which perfections we are still lacking. Are metta and upekkha still lacking? Then we have to accumulate more of them, now. With energy, perseverance, patience, determination! Quote by Phil: See what I said about the perfections. They have to be developed without expecting any gain for one self, with the aim to have less defilements. Thus, right understanding can investigate one's cittas, is it kusala citta or akusala citta? Perhaps this is a different point of view ? Just a few thoughts. All best wishes, Nina. Op 13-dec-2006, om 10:44 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > If I can take a shot at summarizing a few key points of Acharn > Sujin's teaching, she says direct understanding can arise > conditioned by a perfected intellectual understanding (pariyatti) > without need to apply oneself diligently to intentionally training > the mind in the way taught explicitly by the Buddha in his threefold > training. She also says that in this day and age there there will > necessarily be greed and wrong view of self if one follows the > explicit guidance for training of the mind taught by the Buddha that > will lead to it being an operation in futility. #66110 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yet another sign off from Phil yet again!! sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > > Hi all > > I came by to post a sign-off letter I wrote and saw Ken's latest > post and add a little extra there as well! > > Here's the letter: > I've decided to take leave of DSG for a period extending until > January 2008. ..... S: I've only just got a 2007 diary:-/ Anyway, anytime you write and no matter how controversially you do so, we're all always glad to hear from you. James objects when I use 'we', but I think in this case I really can speak for everyone:-) I've always tried to say loud and clear that no one needs to understand the dhamma the same way as anyone else here and I think it makes for a healthy list when people feel free to air their different viewpoints honestly as you do.... I'm just sending this brief note to also say that we sent you the c.d. as usual of the Bkk,Feb 2006 talks which ages ago you had said you were eagerly awaiting some time ago. That will not be so now, but I'll just mention that some of your questions come up. (I think Scott's too at some point). You also asked about the bit or compressed rate (forget the term)and the capacity it takes up on an i-pod. On dhammastudygroup.org, the audio files are loaded at half the compression rate as on the c.d.s we send out, for easier down-loading, but we fear that if it's any less, the quality will be affected. I get lots on my i-pod. Sorry, our technical equipement and know-how is very limited. (When B.Bodhi, the 'master' and an assistant were in Hong Kong, they had really incredible equipment.) Anyway, no need to listen til you're in the mood. Have a great holiday and look forward to any 'appearances' during your break:-). As we know, from a dhamma point of view, resolutions are followed or not entirely depending on a mass of different conditions:-). Best wishes to Naomi too, Metta, Sarah =========== #66111 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member- Kristin intro sarahprocter... Dear Kristin, A warm welcome from me too! Thank you very much for your interesting introductory posts. Pls don't be deterred by all the different opinions/viewpoints you are hearing;-). In the end, we all have to find out the truth for ourselves, find the islands of dhamma refuge. --- KRISTIN wrote: > I must say though, being a solitary Buddhist is a bit difficult for me. .... S: Many other friends here live alone with their Buddhist interest too. The Buddha taught us that in an ultimate sense we are all alone - alone with the present experiences, no matter our circumstances. There is also a section in 'Useful Posts' in the 'files' section of DSG, under 'New to the list and new to the dhamma',which may be useful. It includes some helpful past posts addressed to friends who are knew here. Feel free to join in any discussions and ask for any clarifications too. You'll be making plenty of Buddhist friends here, Kristin, as you're already finding, from all over the world. (Icaro, good to see you around and thank you for your kind welcome to Kristin). Metta, Sarah (living in Hong Kong) ======== #66112 From: Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:31 am Subject: RE: [dsg] processes of cittas. jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... Dear Sarah, thanks writing me again, those two names are my family and surname, some western staff of my company have created these addresses. my full name is jayasinghe mudiyanselage dinesh jayasinghe. i dont know how they done this, its ok i dont mind. my first name is dinesh and surname is jayasinghe. I was watching your chat exchanges with other members, and where there any important references I reads interestly to enhance my dhamma knowledge. Already I was also lucky to write Han Tun, who replied me with very good answers. As you already know, I am sri lankan, buddhist, (Though I am born buddhist knows very bit about, and now realizes its deep.) currently I m working for US air force based here in doha qatar since 2003. my job is work control scheduler and my free time mostly spends with savanata sisilasa radio, (An austrailian buddhist online radio) listening to dhamma talks, and reads any interested articles etc. I am also divorced, 46 years old, having a daughter and son, both employed in sri lanka. my disappointment in the marriage life, prompted me huge towards dhamma concentration and I am happier today with this life, though at times feel lonesome. hope you got a brief picture of mine and glad to be with your group again. may you blessed with triple gems ! dinesh PS: Any quests arises in my mind put forward to the group for clarifications in future. thx #66113 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas. scottduncan2 Dear Voyeurs, Although this is 'thinking about seeing', the thinking is useful, in my opinion, if one seeks to clarify how perception is taught such that 'right view' can establish itself (hey, right 'view'!). Kh. Sujin, A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, pp. 51-52: "Seeing occurs at a moment different from thinking about what appears. For everyone, citta arises just for a moment, then it is succeeded by the next one; this happens continuously. Thus, it seems that the whole wide world is there, with its many different people and things. But we should have right understanding of what the world is. We should know that realities appear one at a time, and that they appear only for one moment of citta. Since cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another very rapidly, it seems that the world does not disintegrate, the world lasts, with beings, people, and many different things. In reality the world lasts just for one moment, namely, when citta arises and cognises an object, just for that moment, and then it falls away together with that citta." Can an inference be made from the statement: '...it seems that the world does not disintegrate...'? That is, can one infer that, following this basic tenet, 'base' perception is not integrated? This seems to me to follow, at least logically. Therefore, the imagined perceptual experience, say an experience with well-developed pa~n~na, might in fact be one of bare moments, one at a time, and rather 'dis-integrated'. At this most basic level, I opine, a moment would not be an integrated unity or whole of any kind, full or partial. Too basic for there to be 'scenes' or 'colour mosaics'. A moment would be more precisely described as analogous to a 'pixel'. The integration is the illusion, although clearly it happens since one sees 'the whole picture', in other words, I think 'scenes' and 'colour mosaics' would be at a more intermediate level of 'organisation'. From the CMA, III, 8, on Seeing, p.123: "In a cognitive process at the sense doors, after the moment of adverting, there arises a citta which directly cognises the impingent object. This citta, and the specific funtion it performs, is determined by the nature of the object. If the object is a visible form, eye-consciousness arises seeing it...In this context the function of seeing...[does] not refer to the cognitive acts which explicitly identify the objects of sight...as such. They signify, rather, the rudimentary momentary occasions of consciousness by which sense datum is experienced in its bare immediacy and simplicity prior to all identificatory cognitive operations." Seeing a world, I think, is the end product of a very intricate and complex process. It is the speed with which this is said to happen which, I think, accounts for the 'end product'. Speaking of thinking about seeing, thinking, and speed of process, Atthasaalinii, pp. 95-99 (Nina has given this before, but its good): "...the visible object (light and colour) comes into the avenue of the mind-door the moment it strikes the sensitive organ, that is to say, it causes vibrations of the life-continuum...Just as a bird flying through the sky and alighting on a tree touches the branch of the tree and its shadow strikes the ground, the touching with the branch and the spreading of the shadow taking place in one moment simultaneously, so the contact with the sensitive organ etc., by the presented object of sense is simultaneous with its coming into the avenue of the mind-door through its ability to cause the life-continuum to vibrate...It should be understood that an apperceptional thought (javana.m) having any one of the objects arises in the manner described. Thus the apperception of a visible object arises at the eye-door and also at the mind-door." This goes a bit afield and starts to look at the javana process, which I would also like to understand better but that is for another thread, I guess. Also, as Howard notes, other realities have functions which contribute to the illusion, sa~n~na for example. Oops, too much. Sorry. Sincerely, Scott. #66114 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yet another sign off from Phil yet again!! scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, S: "...(I think Scott's too at some point)..." Yes, I just listened! Thank you! I didn't write down the session co-ordinates though, sorry. It was a question regarding the apparent persistence of mood states. Good discussion. By the way, if I am 'a young man' (as you suggested to Kh. Sujin) then I'm also a monkey's uncle, however I was good and ogled while standing in line for a coffee the other day by two 'young' women of my age (48!) or older who had just become rather 'excited' by visiting a table selling calenders with pictures of some of Edmonton's finest and most buff firefighters. Unable to buy an actual firefighter they seemingly had no where else to go with their enhanced libido but to direct it at me, a mere visible object - an illusion of light and colour. Creepy, man. Am now, however, rethinking my so-called resolve not to seek a wife given my apparent youthfulness and virility... Scott. #66115 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:07 am Subject: Re: Paticcasamupada nidive Hi Fabian, > I have a some question about Paticcasamupada, is it experienced by > Sotapanna only? And is it true that, all stages in paticcasamupada > were experienced backwards by meditator? I think Dependent Co-arising is experienced by all four types of ariyans in increasing order of penetration. I think not all stages in Dependent Co-arising need to be penetrated. But the gist of Dependent Co-arising need to be penetrated. The gist of Dependent Co-arising can be summarized as: From ignorance and craving comes kammic formations, and from kammic formations comes renewed existence. Thus the cycle continues through birth after birth. And from the cessation of ignorance and craving comes the cessation of kammic formations, and from the cessation of kammic formations comes the cessation of renewed existence. Thus the cycle is broken asunder whereby arahants shout their victory cry: "Birth is ended". Venerable Sariputta did not know of all stages in Dependent Co-arising prior to meeting the Buddha yet he attained Stream-Entry. This is because he understood the gist of Dependent Co-arising. > A meditator explain to me if a meditator can see sankhara arises > from hadayavatthu, the whole process (sankhara)would eventually > stopped producing temporarily and he enter magga nana and > experienced Nibbana for the first time? I don't think this "sankhara arises from hadayavatthu" is true. One who truly penetrates through direct insight Dependent Co-arising first in forward order and then in reverse order would experience a "freeze" in thought processes. During this "freeze", magga and phala cittas taking nibbana as object do arise, but it is too short to be noticeable by anyone, except perhaps the Buddha. The next thing you know is that you thought you have woken up from a deep sleep. But that's because the mind has fallen into bhavanga after magga and phala cittas have fallen away. Hope this is helpful. Swee Boon #66117 From: "icarofranca" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:18 am Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka icarofranca Let's start with > dukkha! Du Kkham you imagine that even inside a so " scientifical" and "technological" métier.legal remarks has much more weight than Physics' Laws? "Physics' Laws ? Who could be concerned about Physics' Laws ?" "The Physics' Police ?" ^_^ Mettaya, Ícaro #66118 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/12/06 11:50:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ----------- > H: >If you'll forgive me, Ken, it seems to me that you are strongly > of a mindset (which all of us share to some degree), that there must > be agents/doers - and by that terminology, I don't mean necessarily > "persons". You seem to need "things that do or act or think", whereas > it is quite possible, I can at least, to come to see the possibility > of there just being occurrences, events, and conditions. > ------------ > > I agree it must be possible to see just occurrences, events and > conditions. Otherwise, the ancient commentaries would not include the > definition, "Citta is the experiencing of an object." But don't forget > they also say, "Citta experiences an object." -------------------------------------------- Howard: I consider the latter to be a way of speaking that *can* be used but deserves wariness. -------------------------------------------- So, if you were to> > claim that the former definition nullified the latter I would have to > object. > > Of course, I should also object if someone were to claim the latter > nullified of the former, but I lack the commitment on that point. :-) > > -------------------------------------- > H: >From this perspective, instead of things that are aware (i.e., > that are conscious of an object), there is just arising &ceasing > awareness. > --------------------------------------- > > "Instead of?" Shouldn't we be searching for a perspective that accepts > both ways of defining citta? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I strongly think we should avoid the agency terminology. The second-class status of such terminology is pointed out in the Patisambhidamagga I seem to recall. I believe that the felt *need* to use agency terminology, as opposed to the terminology itself, is a subtle grasping at atta. I think that mode of speaking, because of the thinking it can reflect and, more importantly because of the thinking it can condition, is best avoided as much as possible. Just an analogy: Someone shows a sharp-edged sword to a child, and tells him/her that that sword has the power to cut through thick vines, and demonstrates that with 3-inch-thick vines to the child's wide-eyed amazement. The child, then asks the sword wielder where in the sword that magical power, that "cutting essence" is to be found so that the child could take that power home with him/her. When it comes to alleged entities, we are all like that child, looking for the magical core. When we are told that a citta knows or a vedana feels or a sa~n~na recognizes, we want to look at the knowing to find the core "thing", the knowing agent called "a citta" - the knower that has "the power to know", we want to look at the feeling to find the core "thing", the feeling agent called "a vedana" - the feeler that has "the power to feel", and we want to look at the recognizing to find the core "thing", the recognizing agent - the recognizer that has "the power to recognize". We look for agents that wield powers. There is knowing but no knower, feeling but no feeler, and recognizing but no recognizer, and there are no "powers" to know, feel, or recognize. It is important, I believe, for each of us to examine our striving to find knowers, feelers, and recognizers. Whether it is one alleged agent or many, the problem is much the same. ------------------------------------------------ > > As we know, citta does not only experience an object. It also (for > example) conditions other dhammas to arise with it and subsequently to > it. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: A better way to put it is "An operation of knowing is a condition for concomitant operations to occur," I believe. Also, care in understanding must be taken when saying that knowing "conditions" other operations rather than saying that it is a condition for their occurrence. The danger here is to confuse conditioning with causing. There is no findable causal force in the knowing that is a power commanding the presence of other operations. It is merely this-that conditionality. The knowing is one of several requisite conditions in the sense that it is one of several phenomena without which the cetasikas will not occur. To look for a hidden causal power in the knowing is like looking to locate the alleged power in the sword I referred to. ----------------------------------------------- It also bears the three basic characteristics. Of course, you> > would say it was the "conditioning" of those dhammas and the "bearing" > of those characteristics, and that would be fine by me. But one way of > putting it should not rule out the other. > > Ken H > > ========================== With metta, Howard #66119 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yet another sign off from Phil yet again!! buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > --- Phil wrote: > > > > > Hi all > > > > I came by to post a sign-off letter I wrote and saw Ken's latest > > post and add a little extra there as well! > > > > Here's the letter: > > I've decided to take leave of DSG for a period extending until > > January 2008. > ..... > S: I've only just got a 2007 diary:-/ Yeah, I hope this is a typo Phil and you mean January 2007. Short leaves from this intense group are understandable, but a leave for an entire year is rather extreme. So, you finally figured out that KS's views of the dhamma are a little cuckoo- great! congratulations! But that is no reason to leave for one year. Stick around and explain your newfound wisdom resulting from your deliberate practice. There are those who will listen. > > Anyway, anytime you write and no matter how controversially you do so, > we're all always glad to hear from you. James objects when I use 'we', but > I think in this case I really can speak for everyone:-) ;-)) I do not object in this case. You have my permission to speak for everyone ;-)). Metta, James #66120 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Ken & Larry) - In a message dated 12/13/06 2:32:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard(Ken H, Larry &all), > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >>S: I think that when we appreciate that there are only dhammas > >performing > >>deeds, experiencing results and so on, there is no confusion about > >'done > >>by whom?'. > >========================== > > I've made the point before, Sarah: I don't think this is a good > >way to > >put this matter. Dhammas that would perform deeds, experience results, > >and so > >on would be "little selves". They would be agents. > .... > S: Yes, we've had this discussion many times. I'm glad Ken H has taken it > up this time:-). I think he put it well in #65967. > > The point of stressing 'only dhammas' is to indicate that it's not a > little self (or big self) or agent that performs any deed or experiences > any result. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: That's an important but partial step towards understanding anatta. ----------------------------------------------- > > Let's say cetana (a dhamma) performs a deed and let's say seeing > consciousness (a vipaka dhamma) experiences a result. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: These are exactly the sort of things I believe are better NOT to say. I would say a cetana occurs - it *is* a performing of a deed, rather than being a thing that performs it. I would say that seeing consciousness occurs - it *is* the experiencing of a visual object. ----------------------------------------------- Cetana and seeing> > consciousness are both elements, both khandhas, both ayatanas, both namas. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Constantly using agency terminology isn't an argument in its favor. ------------------------------------------------ > They EXIST! They arise and fall away. They have functions. Why does this > make them 'little selves' or 'agents'? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: NO! They are not existing things that act. They are the acting. ----------------------------------------------- > .... > >There are no agents > >that > >do or experience. There are no doers or experiencers. There are just > >instances > >of doing and experiencing. > .... > S: There are just dhammas which arise, perform their functions and fall > away. Without kamma, there'd be no vipaka: > "There is no doer of a deed > or one who reaps the deed's result > Phenomena (dhamma) alone flow on - > No other view than this is right. > <....> > "The kamma of its fruit is void; > No fruit exists yet in the kamma; > And still the fruit is born from it, > Wholly depending on the kamma." (Vism X1X, 20) > .... > >Agent terminology is best avoided in order to > >stop > >atta from sneaking in the back door. ;-) > .... > S: When we read about kamma or cetana bearing fruit or dhammas rolling on > or fruit/results being born from kamma, is this agent terminology? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Actions are conditions for other actions. Listen, Sarah, I think you're not getting my point: We cannot entirely avoid agency terminology. It is built into the language. But we should avoid it whenever possible, and we should constantly be aware of the danger in it. Most importantly, we must be carefully introspective, and not let out way of speaking lead our minds like helpless sheep. That is our tendency, I believe, and I think it is important to resist it. Human language is atta-based, mired in reification, and is a soft, silk, leash that feels so nice that we don't even realize how it pulls us where we shouldn't go. -------------------------------------- > > > >With metta, > >Howard (just returned from Texas) > .... > S: Glad to see you back in good form! I'm sure you'll have had a great > time with Sophie. -------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. :-) Just wonderful!! ------------------------------------- > ***** > In your other part of the thread with Larry and others, you're continuing > the discussion on 'unobserved rupas' and especially, visible data. > > How do you account for the colour of Sophie's hair when you're not even > around to see it? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Does she have hair, Sarah? Is that a reality? Or are there conditions that occur which determine "seeing her reddish-blonde hair color" by others and by me when I occasionally do? I don't believe that my namarupic stream is all there is, nor do I believe that streams do not interact. I believe in conditions and conditionality - all dhammas, and interrelated by complex relational patterns of conditionality. --------------------------------------- > > Does this help?: > > "Colour, odour, taste, and nutritive > Essence, and the four elements- > From combination of these eight > There comes the common usage head hairs; > And separately from these eight > There is no common usage head hairs." (Vism X1, 2) --------------------------------------------- Howard: Intersubjective elements of experience. Conditions and conditionality. No problem. --------------------------------------------- > .... > S: This isn't to suggest for a moment that the emphasis you give on the > world to be known now or the emphasis in the Bahiya sutta about the seen > and so on isn't all that matters when it comes to the development of > insight. No conflict at all, as I see it. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========================= With metta, Howard #66121 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:40 am Subject: Re: House Builder? buddhatrue Hi Howard, Scott, Han, and Swee Boon, Thank you all for your responses on this thread. Sorry I didn't respond sooner but I have been without Internet access for two days. I agree with all of your responses, but I was looking for something a little bit deeper. I didn't ask "what" is the Buddha addressing (craving, ignorance), I asked "who" is the Buddha addressing. Why would the Buddha choose to personify craving/ignorance and address it in such a way- in first person? Perhaps this passage needs to be examined/considered more deeply? Metta, James #66122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:45 am Subject: re: Letters on VipassanaI II, 1. nilovg Dear Fabian, --------- F: Reading from your article I believe you are not only learning theories, but also practicing Vipassana, but I am not yet sure you are practicing direct Vipassana or indirect (through samatha) vipassana. ------- N: I do not think of practising vipassana, but I try to learn more about the dhammas that can be objects of awareness and understanding in our daily life. It is good to have more understanding of them. But if one thinks that one should be mindful of them, to me, it does not work. The cetasika mindfulness cannot be made to arise at will. ---------- F: True, most meditator did not understand every distraction or unpleasant feeling would help their understanding growing, they just wish they get calmness or happiness when practicing Vipassana, that is why, some of my friends are disappointed when their mind get distracted with many kind of changes, alternately sometimes peaceful (only short duration) and then distracted again. Sometimes pleasant and sometimes unpleasant (pain, boring etc). Not too many people who meditate understand unpleasant feeling is a good experience which help our understanding grows. ------ N: That is well expressed. We can learn from such experiences. We learn that nothing arises according to our wishes and this a beginning of understanding that dhammas arise because of their own conditions. Gradually we can learn what the Buddha meant by anatta. As we go along in daily life we can know more about the different cittas that arise, also when we are in the company of others. Sometimes metta arises and then there is peace and calm with the citta, and sometimes we are annoyed and then there is aversion. In this way understanding of our life can develop quite naturally. Nina. #66123 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: House Builder? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 12/13/06 10:50:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, Scott, Han, and Swee Boon, > > Thank you all for your responses on this thread. Sorry I didn't > respond sooner but I have been without Internet access for two days. > > I agree with all of your responses, but I was looking for something a > little bit deeper. I didn't ask "what" is the Buddha addressing > (craving, ignorance), I asked "who" is the Buddha addressing. Why > would the Buddha choose to personify craving/ignorance and address it > in such a way- in first person? Perhaps this passage needs to be > examined/considered more deeply? > > Metta, > James > ========================== I don't suspect it to be anything more than a literary device, a personification of craving (or maybe ignorance) as the "house builder". What di you have in mind? Something like Mara? Something else? With metta, Howard #66124 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:21 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe, 150 nilovg Dear friends, As we have seen, the fact that beings are born in different planes of existence is due to their accumulated kamma. Plane of existence is the place or world where one is born. Plane of existence is not the same as plane of citta. There are different planes of citta depending on the object (årammaùa) the citta experiences. There are four different planes of citta which are the following: 1.kåmåvacara cittas (sensuous plane of citta or kåma-bhúmi) 2.rúpåvacara cittas (plane of rúpa-jhånacittas) 3.arúpåvacara cittas (plane of arúpa-jhånacittas) 4.lokuttara cittas (plane of supramundane cittas experiencing nibbåna) Kåmåvacara cittas can be classified as asobhana cittas (cittas not accompanied by sobhana cetasikas) and as kåma-sobhana cittas (cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness, accompanied by sobhana cetasikas). In which planes of existence do they arise? Kåmåvacara cittas arise in thirty planes of existence; they do not arise in the asa~n~na-satta plane, where there is no nåma, only rúpa. Even in the arúpa-brahma-planes there are kåmåvacara cittas. As regards kåma-sobhana cittas, they can arise even in woeful planes. Furthermore, they arise in the human plane, in the deva planes, in the rúpa-brahma planes and in the arúpa-brahma planes. They arise in thirty planes of existence, the asa~n~na-satta plane excepted. Not all types, however, arise in all planes of existence. As regards asobhana cittas, they can arise in thirty planes of existence, but not all types arise in all planes. Lobha-múla-cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) can arise in thirty planes; even in the rúpa-brahma planes and arúpa-brahma planes lobha-múla-cittas can arise. Dosa-múla-cittas (cittas rooted in aversion) arise in the eleven sensuous planes of existence. It is clinging to sense objects which conditions dosa; when one does not obtain the pleasant object one likes, one has aversion. Dosa-múla-cittas do not arise in the rúpa-brahma planes or in the arúpa-brahma planes. So long as beings live in the rúpa-brahma planes and in the arúpa-brahma planes there are no conditions for dosa. Moha-múla-cittas (cittas rooted in ignorance) arise in thirty planes of existence; all those who are not arahats have moha and thus moha-múla-cittas arise in all planes of existence, except in the asa~n~na-satta plane. ****** Nina. #66125 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:30 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana III, 3. nilovg Dear friends, Akusala citta may arise and after it has fallen away paññå can realize its characteristic; it can know it as a conditioned nåma. Then there is kusala citta instead of akusala citta. However, this will not be achieved by striving to have strong concentration on particular objects one selects. There will be more detachment from the self if one does not sit down in order to concentrate on particular nåmas and rúpas and if one does not “plan” to have mindfulness. It depends on conditions whether there will be sati and paññå or not. It depends on conditions what will be the object of paññå, it may be akusala citta or any other object. If we believe that by means of satipaììhåna a great deal of kusala has been accumulated already, so much so that akusala can be burnt up, we do not know ourselves. Do we realize the countless moments of subtle clinging or of ignorance, arising time and again after there has been seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or the experience of tangible object? Do we know whether there is at this moment kusala citta or akusala citta after seeing? People who have practised in a center find it difficult to develop satipa.t.thåna in daily life, they find daily life distracting. One should check what one's goal is, understanding realities or being calm and free from disturbances? Daily life can be the measure of our understanding. When paññå is truly paññå it can understand as it is seeing occurring now, hearing occurring now, it can understand them naturally, in daily life. Paññå does not develop rapidly or suddenly. We cannot determine that from now on paññå should clearly understand realities. Paññå develops when it discerns the dhamma which appears naturally, in whatever situation or place one may be. We may believe that it is difficult to be aware of realities while we are working, but the situation of our work is daily life and any reality which appears can be the object of mindfulness. Alan Weller wrote: “I do not separate Dhamma from work. I think that one sentence concerning the Dhamma, spoken by Alan Driver, can be applied and be of value in the work situation: ‘We know from our own lives that we do not always give help when help is needed.’ This can encourage us not to be neglectful of kusala in our work situation. Another phrase to be remembered: ‘This moment should not be lost’. This can be a reminder not to be absorbed in work with akusala citta. When we understand that this moment should not be lost we don't have to think first or reflect first in order to be aware. Thus, understanding can be applied in whatever situation, at different levels too: at the levels of síla, of calm and of insight. There is no self who can cause the arising of any reality. We have to be so very patient to let understanding arise by conditions and forget the trying and the wishing for results.” (end quote) ******* Nina. #66126 From: "bjones6513" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:41 pm Subject: Pali dictionary bjones6513 Hi, I'm new to this group, although I have been reading the posts for some time. I was wondering, since Pali is used quite frequently, could anyone recommend a Pali dictionary? It seems that they all vary slightly in translation. Also, where do I download the discussions with A. Sujin that are mentioned in the discussion group? I'd be interested in listening to them. Thanks, Bill #66127 From: "KRISTIN" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:53 am Subject: Re: New member intro -Kristin pfoceans77 Hi all, First let me say, Thanks for the warm welcome Larry. To Ken, You told me not to respond to your message but I must say one thing, just because I am not currently enlightened, I'm not sure that I will never achieve enlightenment. After all the Buddha was not enlightened from the start. It wasn't something he achieved until he was near 30 yrs. old. So if it's not important to meditate or learn the Dhamma what is being a Buddhist? All I can say it that unfortunately I am now completely lost. I do meditate and will continue to do so. As will I also continue reading about the Dhamma. I'm not exactly sure what you all are saying. If studying the Dhamma is not important than what is the purpose of this group? Just to clarify, I am not being confrontational, just confused. I barely know how to respond to the emails. Did I just interpret the responses wrong? To Larry and Sarah- thank you for being supportive and informative -Kristin #66128 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yet another sign off from Phil yet again!! sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Azita), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > By the way, if I am 'a young man' (as you suggested to Kh. Sujin) then > I'm also a monkey's uncle, .... Sarah: No, that was Azita again:-)....'I have a question from a young man, Scott...' or something like that if I recall..... Azita - no, I mean Sarah ======================== #66129 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New member intro -Kristin upasaka_howard Hi, Kristin - Welcome from me as well, another member of DSG, and a fellow meditator. In a message dated 12/13/06 6:01:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, PFOCEANS77@... writes: > Hi all, > First let me say, Thanks for the warm welcome Larry. > To Ken, > You told me not to respond to your message but I must say one thing, just > because I am not currently enlightened, I'm not sure that I will never achieve > enlightenment. After all the Buddha was not enlightened from the start. It > wasn't something he achieved until he was near 30 yrs. old. > So if it's not important to meditate or learn the Dhamma what is being a > Buddhist? ------------------------------------------- Howard: In my opinion, that is an appropriate and excellent question! As far as I am concerned, meditation is a clearly central element of Buddhist practice, and without meditation there is no Buddhism. Ken is one of a number of members of DSG who not only do not meditate, but actively argue against it. This, IMO, is idiosyncratic to say the least. -------------------------------------------- > All I can say it that unfortunately I am now completely lost. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Please do not feel so. There are a good number of meditators here, some of whom have, I believe, gone quite far. ------------------------------------------ > I do meditate and will continue to do so. As will I also continue reading > about the Dhamma. ----------------------------------------- Howard: An excellent and appropriate combination, I would say! :-) ----------------------------------------- > I'm not exactly sure what you all are saying. > If studying the Dhamma is not important than what is the purpose of this > group? ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think any of the folks here say that studying the Dhamma is unimportant. There is a positive concensus on that. But the interpretation of the Dhamma by some here is, let us say, a bit odd to the ear. At least I would say so! ;-) ---------------------------------------- > > Just to clarify, I am not being confrontational, just confused. I barely > know how to respond to the emails. Did I just interpret the responses wrong? > > To Larry and Sarah- thank you for being supportive and informative > -Kristin ==================== Kristin, please stick around, and you will soon get the "lay of the land". There is much to learn here, from all sources, the familiar and "different". I have found that discussions with those with different perspectives can be quite useful in several ways unless one is the sort of person who easily falls under the sway of "authority" or tends to be a "true believer" type. For independent minds who take seriously the Kalama Sutta ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html), this is a great list to belong to, IMO. With metta, Howard #66130 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: House Builder? buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > I don't suspect it to be anything more than a literary device, a > personification of craving (or maybe ignorance) as the "house builder". What di you > have in mind? Something like Mara? Something else? No, I wasn't thinking anything like Mara. It's very difficult for me to describe what I am thinking; that's why I asked a question rather than made a statement. To explain, I need to give a bit of background information. I recently watched the video presentation of Big Mind. In it, a Zen teacher talks a group of participants through a dialogue with various aspects of the self. Some of these aspects included; the controller, the skeptic, the damaged person, desire, Big Mind, etc. At first I was sceptical about this process, but then I saw some real benefit in it. (http://www.bigmind.org/index.html) It got me thinking about the self and what the Buddha taught in regards to the self. The Buddha never said if the self did or did not exist. I am starting to come to the conclusion that the self does exist, but it exists as an illusion. However, the illusion appears quite real and powerful so must be dealt with on its own terms. Denying the existence of the self doesn't accomplish breaking down this illusion, I think. Having conversations with aspects of the psyche may seem strange, and yet here is the Buddha doing it. I don't think that he is just being poetic; he is addressing an aspect of the little self which no longer has any power: House-builder, you're seen! You will not build a house again. All your rafters broken, the ridge pole destroyed, gone to the Unformed, the mind has come to the end of craving. In other words, I think that the house-builder can be viewed as craving or ignorance or the self, itself. Metta, James #66131 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: House Builder? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 12/13/06 10:02:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > I don't suspect it to be anything more than a literary > device, a > >personification of craving (or maybe ignorance) as the "house > builder". What di you > >have in mind? Something like Mara? Something else? > > No, I wasn't thinking anything like Mara. It's very difficult for me > to describe what I am thinking; that's why I asked a question rather > than made a statement. To explain, I need to give a bit of > background information. I recently watched the video presentation of > Big Mind. In it, a Zen teacher talks a group of participants through > a dialogue with various aspects of the self. Some of these aspects > included; the controller, the skeptic, the damaged person, desire, > Big Mind, etc. At first I was sceptical about this process, but then > I saw some real benefit in it. (http://www.bigmind.org/index.html) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I've heard of him. I may even have read some stuff by him. I believe he is Jewish-born, coming, in fact, from along line of rabbis, though he doesn't look particularly (genetically) Jewish. --------------------------------------------- > > It got me thinking about the self and what the Buddha taught in > regards to the self. The Buddha never said if the self did or did > not exist. I am starting to come to the conclusion that the self > does exist, but it exists as an illusion. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, the illusion of self is certainly a fact. ---------------------------------------------- However, the illusion > > appears quite real and powerful so must be dealt with on its own > terms. Denying the existence of the self doesn't accomplish breaking > down this illusion, I think. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. It certainly does not. The entire practice of the Dhamma carried out to completion, is required to break that illusion. ---------------------------------------------- > > Having conversations with aspects of the psyche may seem strange, and > yet here is the Buddha doing it. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, perhaps so, but it still is just a manner of speaking - a willful personification. When Gotama became the Tathagata, he was entirely freed of sense of self, and, so, in speaking to the "house builder", whether referring to the no-longer-existing craving or ignorance or the never-existing self, the speech was ironic. ------------------------------------------- I don't think that he is just being > > poetic; he is addressing an aspect of the little self which no longer > has any power: --------------------------------------------- Howard: But no "house builder" any longer appears, not as craving or ignorance nor imagined self, and so the speech surely IS poetic, IMO. --------------------------------------------- > > House-builder, you're seen! > You will not build a house again. > All your rafters broken, > the ridge pole destroyed, > gone to the Unformed, the mind > has come to the end of craving. > > In other words, I think that the house-builder can be viewed as > craving or ignorance or the self, itself. -------------------------------------- Howard: Well, yes, but it still is poetic usage. -------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > =================== With metta, Howard #66132 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:31 pm Subject: The 3 Gifts ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the Three kinds of Buddhist Gifts? Three kinds of gift are mentioned in Buddhism, namely: 1: Amisa dana: The gift of material things, 2: Abhaya dana: The gifts of life, and 3: Dhamma dana: The gift of Truth. Amisa dana – or the gift of material things is practised by people of all religions and is very common. Food, clothes, and houses are given to people of little means or to refugees through various religious and social organizations. It is, no doubt, a good thing to satisfy the hunger of the starved and the thirst of the thirsty. This type of donations is highly recommended in Buddhism and is called the Amisa dana. (The donations of material things). Next comes the Abhaya dana - or giving life to those who are in danger of life caused by five, water, or enemies. Sometimes we hear of people who are about to die due to lack of blood. To donate blood and save another humans life is indeed a great thing. Donation of eyes and kidneys is also highly appreciated and they come under Abhaya dana – donation of life. The last one: Dhamma dana - or the gift of Truth or the Doctrine is said to be the highest of all donations on earth. Why so? Because it opens the Door to the Deathless Dimension! This no other giving is even remotely capable of... Sabba danam Dhamma danam jinati Sabbam rasam Dhamma raso jinati Sabbam ratim Dhamma rati jinati Tanhakkayo sabba dukkham jinati The gift of Truth excels all other Gifts. The flavour of Truth excels all other flavours. The pleasure in Truth excels all other pleasures. He who has destroyed craving overcomes all sorrow. Dhammapada 354 Ven. Weragoda Sarada Maha Thero http://www.buddhist-book.com Singapore Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #66133 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: House Builder? buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James - > Howard: > But no "house builder" any longer appears, not as craving or ignorance > nor imagined self, and so the speech surely IS poetic, IMO. > --------------------------------------------- I don't want to get hung up on if the speech is poetic or not (poetic has many definitions and can imply hypothetical); that isn't really important. What I wanted to stress is that the Buddha, as Gotama, had a 'little self' (a house-builder) and that upon enlightenment that house-builder was seen for what it was and was destroyed. My ultimate point is that it isn't right for anyone to say "There is no self", when the house-builder still exists. I don't know if I am expressing myself very well. This is a hard topic. Metta, James #66134 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New member intro -Kristin nilovg Dear Krtistin, I want to thank you for your intro, and for sharing with us your experiences. Of course studying the Dhamma is basic. The Buddha taught for fortyfive years the Dhamma so that we can develop more understanding of all phenomena within ourselves and around ourselves. The word meditation may be confusing. We can call it mental development, bhavana. Also studying is mental development. Then there is meditation of calm, samatha, and development of insight, vipassana. Vipassana can be developed in daily life. To begin with, it is useful to know more about our daily life. Sometimes kusala citta, wholesome consciousness, arises and sometimes akusala citta, unwholesome consciousness arises. We can notice that they quite suddenly arise and we may wonder why. They do so because there are conditions for their arising. More understanding of these different moments is very beneficial. It can affect sila, our conduct. I read in Kh. Sujin's Perfections which I translated: This is deep Dhamma and we cannot understand all of it in the beginning. It is good to remember that lack of metta causes unwholesome conduct. And don't we cling to colour, sound, etc? We can come to realize this more often. We cannot force ourselves not to have clinging, but knowing when it arises helps us to understand ourselves better. Akusala is motivated by attachment, aversion or hate and ignorance. It is important to study these unwholesome qualities and to know when they occur. The wrong view of self conditions unwholesome conduct. We cling to ourselves very much, but it takes time to realize this. Don't we like ourselves very much? The streamwinner, sotaapannna, who has realized the first stage of enlightenment (there are four stages) has no more wrong view of self, but he still has attachment and aversion. We read further on: Here we see that knowing our different cittas affects our daily life. This is the beginning of the development of insight, vipassana. You do not have to do special things or sit in meditation. It can be developed in daily life. Nina. Op 13-dec-2006, om 14:53 heeft KRISTIN het volgende geschreven: > So if it's not important to meditate or learn the Dhamma what is > being a Buddhist? > All I can say it that unfortunately I am now completely lost. > I do meditate and will continue to do so. As will I also continue > reading about the Dhamma. > I'm not exactly sure what you all are saying. > If studying the Dhamma is not important than what is the purpose of > this group? #66135 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:59 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 121, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 121 Intro: In the previous section it was explained that there are thirtytwo types of mundane vipaakacittas produced by kamma formations. In this section a question is asked how it can be known that these vipaakacittas are conditioned by kamma formations. The translator translates the Pali term upacita kamma as ‘stored up kamma’. Pe Maung Tin translates this as 'accumulated kamma'. Upacita means accumulated. Kamma is actually cetanaa, volition or intention. The intention that motivates a deed falls away, but it is accumulated from one moment of citta to the next moment, from this life to the next life. Each citta is succeeded by the next citta; life in the cycle of birth and death is an unbroken series of cittas and thus, kamma that is accumulated can produce result later on, even after countless aeons. ----------- Text Vis. 121. Here it may be asked: 'But how is it to be known that this consciousness of the kind stated actually has formations as its condition?'.--Because there is no kamma-result when there is no stored-up kamma. For this consciousness is kamma-result, and kamma-result does not arise in the absence of stored-up kamma. --------- N: The Tiika explains that the term upacita, accumulated refers to kamma that has been performed (kata) and is able to produce its fruit. It repeats that if there would not be accumulated kamma, there would not be result, vipaaka. ---------- Text Vis.: If it did, then all kinds of kamma-resultant consciousnesses would arise in all kinds of beings, and they do not do so. This is how it should be known that such consciousness has formations as its condition. -------- N: The Tiika explains that if vipaaka would arise regardless of kamma, then for all beings any kind of vipaaka could arise. It states that, for example, smelling-consciousness could arise for those who are in the brahma planes of existence. Mahaa-vipaakacittas could arise although there is no opportunity for these kinds of vipaakacittas. Beings in the ruupa-brahma planes do not have smelling-consciousness, there is no opportunity for such kinds of vipaakacitta. Those living in the aruupa-brahmaplanes do not have any sense impressions at all. The Tiika gives a lesson in grammar, explaining that the form vipaakaani which is the plural of a neuter form (it would be expected to be masc. pl: vipaaka) is used since it is considered as consciousness, vi~n~naana.m, which is neuter: sabbavipaakavi~n~naa.naani, all vipaakacittas. This reminds us that when we read: kamma-formations conditon consciousness (s"nkhaarapaccayaa vi~n~naana.m), that the word consciousness refers to vipaakacitta, citta that is result. ******* Conclusion: Kamma produces result when there is an opportunity for it. Living in the ruupa-brahma planes of existence where there are less sense impressions is the result of ruupa-jhaana and living in the aruupa- brahma planes where there are no sense impressions is the result of aruupa-jhaana. As we have seen, there is no opportunity for kamma to produce all kinds of vipaaka for all beings, everywhere. We are living now in the human plane of existence where there is an opportunity for kamma to produce all kinds of sense impressions which may be kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. Also in past lives seeing, hearing and the other sense impressions arose and they will arise in the future so long as the cycle of birth and death continues. We continue to accumulate kusala kamma and akusala kamma and thus these kammas will produce their appropriate results in the form of rebirth-consciousness and in the course of life: kamma-formations condition vi~n~naa.na, vipaakacitta. The arahat does not accumulate kamma anymore. He has kiriyacittas performing the function of javana. Thus for him there cannot be anymore rebirth-consciousness. In the next section it is further explained that different kammas produce their results accordingly. Each cause produces its appropriate result. ********** Nina. #66136 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New member intro -Kristin icarofranca Dear Nina and Kristin, >------------------------------------------------------------------- > Here we see that knowing our different cittas affects our daily >life. > This is the beginning of the development of insight, vipassana. You > do not have to do special things or sit in meditation. It can be > developed in daily life. >---------------------------------------------------------------------- Kirstin, these words resume at the best way the more striking feature of Real Buddhism! We all are debtors of Nina Van Gorkon's efforts on reveal this treasure of true buddhistic doctrine for all people( of course she will protest, arguing that's a non-ego platform - anatta - of exposition, but don't worry: she has a real knack on teaching!) Mettaya, Ícaro #66137 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New member intro jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > ... Hallo Nina, all Your message to Kristin give me two problems First the information you gave about 'meditation': N: "The word meditation may be confusing. We can call it mental development, bhavana. Also studying is mental development. Then there is meditation of calm, samatha, and development of insight, vipassana. Vipassana can be developed in daily life." J: Why do you not give the factual information that there are two opinions within the frequent DSG-participants: yours and that of people who do sitting meditation, by some called 'formal meditation' ? My second problem is on your: N: " The streamwinner, sotaapannna, who has realized the first stage of enlightenment (there are four stages) has no more wrong view of self, but he still has attachment and aversion." J: I thought we had an agreement (see the exchange between Sarah and me this week) that we should not longer discuss the question 'how is it to be a sotapanna' ? Because that is speculation and that question does not help us. Metta Joop #66138 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New member intro -Kristin buddhatrue Hi Kristin, Nina, and Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > Dear Nina and Kristin, > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Here we see that knowing our different cittas affects our daily >life. > > This is the beginning of the development of insight, vipassana. You > > do not have to do special things or sit in meditation. It can be > > developed in daily life. > >------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > Kirstin, these words resume at the best way the more striking feature > of Real Buddhism! I couldn't disagree more. Nina is denying the importance of the Eight factor of the Noble Eightfold Path- Right Concentration (defined by the Buddha as jhana). The type of insight the Buddha taught cannot be achieved without the accomplishment of the jhanas. And the jhanas are developed during sitting meditation, not in daily life. Metta, James #66139 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:39 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 609- Wholesome Deeds(f) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd When we perform acts of generosity, the objects which can be given are the objects which can be experienced through the six doors. The Atthasåliní (I, Book I, Part II, 77) illustrates the giving of colour with a story about the treasurer of King Duììhagåmani who presented a dress embroidered with gold at the great shrine, saying, “This dress is golden in appearance, the Supreme Buddha is also golden in appearance; the golden cloth suits the Golden One, and it will be our gift of colour.” With the intention to make an offering of sound one can offer a musical instrument such as a drum to the Triple Gem. With the intention to make a gift of flavour one may offer, for example, a root with a captivating flavour. We read in the same section of the Atthasåliní that, when someone makes the gift with his own hands it is an act through the body. When he tells his relatives or friends to present his offering it is an act of speech. When he is considering to make a gift it is an act of thought. Afterwards he will do what is necessary by act or speech in order to accomplish his intention. The Atthasåliní (in the same section, 77) explains that, when someone in giving gifts observes the tradition of his family or observes usage, the giving is accomplished by síla, morality. Observing rules of tradition which are the foundation of wholesome conduct is síla. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66141 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New member intro -Kristin icarofranca Hi james! >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > I couldn't disagree more. Nina is denying the importance of the > Eight factor of the Noble Eightfold Path- Right Concentration > (defined by the Buddha as jhana). The type of insight the Buddha > taught cannot be achieved without the accomplishment of the jhanas. >------------------------------------------------------------------ That's a good argument, James! Nina's thread of reasoning ( at least it is the way I understand it) is grounded on an unique proposition: that's impossible for usual commoners today (commuters, Rock fans.Kung Fu film addicts, clerks, murderers, latin american dictators, call girls, blue collars, The Pope, Mr. Putin, Mr. Bush and last but not least DSG members...) reach the full Jhana practice. The modern human being couldn't fit Jhana goals of meditation - sitted, mind calm and undisturbed and so on - so the only true buddhistic practice at hand is the Vipassana, that can be performed reading, walking, chatting and of course crosslegged on ground (but it's not mandatory at all). I don't disagree of such idea, but I could add that all human beings must try to meditate at the classical Jhana way. Who knows anyway where success lies ? >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > And the jhanas are developed during sitting meditation, not in daily > life. >-------------------------------------------------------------------- So mote it be! Mettaya, Ícaro #66142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:07 am Subject: new member intro nilovg Hallo Joop (James), -------- J: Your message to Kristin give me two problems First the information you gave about 'meditation': N: "The word meditation may be confusing. We can call it mental development, bhavana. Also studying is mental development. Then there is meditation of calm, samatha, and development of insight, vipassana. Vipassana can be developed in daily life." J: Why do you not give the factual information that there are two opinions within the frequent DSG-participants: yours and that of people who do sitting meditation, by some called 'formal meditation' ? ------- N: I mentioned among bhavana both samatha and vipassana, see above. Samatha and vipassana are two kinds of meditation that each have a different goal and a different way of development. I did not want to go into details too much. I have nothing against sitting meditation, but it is different from vipassana. The word formal meditation is not used in the Tipataka and commentaries, and therefore I avoid this expression. This is to James about jhana being necessary: We can check the Tipitaka ourselves and see whether the Buddha ever said that jhana is a necessary condition for vipassana, and whether everyone has to develop jhana. Are people not different, with different capacities? When there is right understanding of the eightfold Path it is accompanied by the other factors already, including right concentration that assists right understanding in having one nama or rupa as object and see it as it really is. There were many debates, and see the archives, (U.P.) on the subject of jhana. Perhaps needless to repeat all this? --------- Joop: My second problem is on your: N: " The streamwinner, sotaapannna, who has realized the first stage of enlightenment (there are four stages) has no more wrong view of self, but he still has attachment and aversion." J: I thought we had an agreement (see the exchange between Sarah and me this week) that we should not longer discuss the question 'how is it to be a sotapanna' ? Because that is speculation and that question does not help us. ------- N: I quoted from Kh Sujin here. We do not have to speculate how it is being a sotapanna. But here is another reason to mention the sotaapanna: in which direction is the development of vipassana going? What defilements are eradicated? We have to know this. Otherwise there is no end to confusion. We have to know that wrong view conditions many defilements and being without wrong view is an immense support for sila. I think that it is helpful to know that there are four stages of enlightenment. It makes us see how deeply rooted defilements are, they cannot be eradicated immediately. Not before the wrong view of self is eradicated. And only the arahat has eradicated completely clinging and ignorance. Nina. #66143 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:13 am Subject: paticcasamuppada nilovg Dear Fabian, Swee Boon has given you very good points. Perhaps I can add something. ------- F: I have a some question about Paticcasamupada, is it experienced by Sotapanna only? And is it true that, all stages in paticcasamupada were experienced backwards by meditator? A meditator explain to me if a meditator can see sankhara arises from hadayavatthu, the whole process (sankhara)would eventually stopped producing temporarily and he enter magga nana and experienced Nibbana for the first time? ------- N: At the second stage of tender insight there is more understanding of conditioned dhammas. As Swee Boon explained, . The Paticcasamupada is not a matter of theory, or learning all these terms, but it pertains to our daily life now. At this moment we cling to all sense-objects, as we did in the past, and so long as there is clinging there are conditions for rebirth. There are different degrees of penetrating the Paticcasamupada. The Buddha in his omniscience could penetrate it fully. His disciples could in a lesser degree. You ask about a sotapanna. He understands it more deeply than an ordinary person. But people's accumulated wisdom is different. Not all sotaapannas have the same extent of wisdom and thus there are differences in the way they penetrate the Paticcasamupada. But let us not forget that the Paticcasamupada concerns our daily life, kehidupan seharihari. Nina. #66144 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:19 am Subject: RE: [dsg] processes of cittas. sarahprocter... Dear Dinesh & Han, Thanks so much for your interesting intro. Of course, here in Asia, Doha (Qatar), is very much in the news at the moment because of the Asia Games. There must be a lot of flights to control at the moment. Your name, Dinesh, rings a bell. Perhaps you posted before? Anyway, look forward to your contributions. The dhamma really helps a lot whatever one's personal circumstances, doesn't it? -- han tun wrote: > Dana: The Practice of Giving: Selected essays edited > by Bhikkhu Bodhi > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel367.html .... S: I have the booklet and I'm glad to hear it's on-line. Many good articles (inc. one of Nina's). I wonder if you, Dinesh or anyone else would care to either post installments from all the essays, one or two paras at a time for discussion and consideration or just to select ones you find particularly helpful? I think 'all' would appreciate this. (Poetic licence with the 'all', now James has let me off the hook once:-)). Metta, Sarah ===== #66145 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yet another sign off from Phil yet again!! sarahprocter... Hi James & Phil, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Yeah, I hope this is a typo Phil and you mean January 2007. Short > leaves from this intense group are understandable, but a leave for an > entire year is rather extreme. .... S: Yes, you're right, but actually, quite a few members I can think of have taken leave for a year at a time and then bounced back. It goes quickly and people hardly notice. In Phil's case of course, we all enjoy his writing so much that we notice when he's absent for even a week:-). I think the study of dhamma can be intense - especially when we're picking up lots of new ideas, Pali terms and hearing different ideas to consider......it all goes deep too. Both you and Phil have mentioned the friendships formed and I think it is important to stay in touch. We may disagree and even get upset at times, but the listening, considering and talking to friends about the Dhamma really helps us to focus on the priorities in life, I find. .... >So, you finally figured out that KS's > views of the dhamma are a little cuckoo- great! congratulations! ... S: Now, now!...Like, Nina, I think his summary rather missed the mark, but will leave them there. Others have mentioned the same point Phil makes that what they hear from K.Sujin (and others of us) is different from what B.Bodhi and most Sayadaws say. As Phil implied and I'd like to stress, the truth is not a 'numbers' game. Howard put this well once. A day will come when no one is teaching the truth about dhammas. Meanwhile, we all have to find out for ourselves what is 'right'. .... >But > that is no reason to leave for one year. Stick around and explain > your newfound wisdom resulting from your deliberate practice. There > are those who will listen. .... S: Exactly! If Phil or anyone else is hearing what they consider to be helpful or more correct dhamma from any Sayadaws, why not share with your good friends here! Of course some will always agree and some will always disagree....so what? Our aim is not to win any popularity contest but to share what we find helpful with each other and to learn from the feedback. I will listen for one. ... >James objects when I > use 'we', but > > I think in this case I really can speak for everyone:-) > > ;-)) I do not object in this case. You have my permission to speak > for everyone ;-)). .... S: :-))Always good to find points to agree with you on, James. Metta, Sarah ======== #66146 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:14 am Subject: Re: New member intro -Kristin ken_aitch Hi Kristin, My apologies for giving the wrong impression. What I wrote was, I think, in accordance with the Dhamma, but some further explanations would have been helpful. ---------------- K: > You told me not to respond to your message but I must say one thing, just because I am not currently enlightened, I'm not sure that I will never achieve enlightenment. After all the Buddha was not enlightened from the start. It wasn't something he achieved until he was near 30 yrs. old. ---------------- Yes, there is a conventional sense in which we say a person becomes enlightened. But, ultimately, there is no person; there are just the presently arisen five khandhas - fleeting, conditioned, mental and physical phenomena. Phil, among others, was appalled that I should inflict this truth upon you so early in the piece. To some, it makes the Buddha's teaching seem dry, barren and depressing. But to others, including me, it makes it indescribably beautiful. ---------------------------- K: > So if it's not important to meditate or learn the Dhamma what is being a Buddhist? ---------------------------- I agree with you that learning is vitally important. It is the theoretical stage of bhavana (mental development). (Some people translate bhavana as meditation, but that can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings.) I also agree that to be a Buddhist means to be learning Dhamma and to be practising what has been learnt. But there is no person that learns and practises; ultimately, "Buddhist" can only refer to a fleeting moment of consciousness. It can refer to a moment in which the Dhamma is correctly understood in theory (a moment of learning). Or it can refer to a moment in which a conditioned nama or rupa is correctly understood directly (a moment of practice). It can also refer to a moment in which the Dhamma is fully penetrated (a moment of enlightenment). ----------------------------------- K: > All I can say it that unfortunately I am now completely lost. I do meditate and will continue to do so. As will I also continue reading about the Dhamma. I'm not exactly sure what you all are saying. If studying the Dhamma is not important than what is the purpose of this group? ----------------------------------- What I said was, don't feel *obligated* to study the Dhamma. Whatever happens happens by conditions. So study the Dhamma in the same way you do anything else in normal daily life - without the idea you have control over conditioned reality. If we have the idea that we can (in the ultimate sense) make Dhamma study happen, or if we believe there is a persisting self that can go on to become enlightened, then we have wrong understanding. DSG is a forum where people can learn the Dhamma that is found in the Pali Canon and its ancient commentaries. But, if people want to discuss the teachings of modern-day meditation masters they can do that here too. And can we choose which of those purposes we will prefer? According to conventional reality maybe, but according to the beautiful, profound teaching of the Buddha, everything is a matter of fleeting conditioned soulless paramattha dhammas. Ken H #66147 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] processes of cittas. nilovg Hi Sarah, Dinesh, A good idea. The subject is important. Reflecting on it will help us to know ourselves better. It concerns so much our daily life. Nina. Op 14-dec-2006, om 11:19 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Dana: The Practice of Giving: Selected essays edited > > by Bhikkhu Bodhi > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel367.html > .... > S: > I wonder if you, Dinesh or anyone else would care to either post > installments from all the essays, one or two paras at a time for > discussion and consideration or just to select ones you find > particularly > helpful? I think 'all' would appreciate this. #66148 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New member intro -Kristin buddhatrue Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > Hi james! > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > I couldn't disagree more. Nina is denying the importance of the > > Eight factor of the Noble Eightfold Path- Right Concentration > > (defined by the Buddha as jhana). The type of insight the Buddha > > taught cannot be achieved without the accomplishment of the jhanas. > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > That's a good argument, James! > Nina's thread of reasoning ( at least it is the way I understand it) > is grounded on an unique proposition: that's impossible for usual > commoners today (commuters, Rock fans.Kung Fu film addicts, clerks, > murderers, latin american dictators, call girls, blue collars, The > Pope, Mr. Putin, Mr. Bush and last but not least DSG members...) reach > the full Jhana practice. The modern human being couldn't fit Jhana > goals of meditation - sitted, mind calm and undisturbed and so on - so > the only true buddhistic practice at hand is the Vipassana, that can > be performed reading, walking, chatting and of course crosslegged on > ground (but it's not mandatory at all). I don't really know if jhana is possible for today's folks or not. I don't really see a compelling reason as to why it wouldn't be possible. However, that doesn't matter. It isn't appropriate to change the dhamma to suit one's tastes or abilities. The Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path and completion of the Noble Eightfold Path requires jhana- end of story. The Buddha didn't teach vipassana insight. That is a bogus, modern- day teaching. > > I don't disagree of such idea, but I could add that all human beings > must try to meditate at the classical Jhana way. Who knows anyway > where success lies ? Hmmmm...interesting. Yes, those wishing to follow the Buddha's path must try to meditate in the classical, cross-legged way. You never know what's possible until you try. Metta, James #66149 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:12 am Subject: Re: new member intro buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Kristina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > This is to James about jhana being necessary: We can check the > Tipitaka ourselves and see whether the Buddha ever said that jhana is > a necessary condition for vipassana, I would like you to show me where the Buddha even taught vipassana! The Buddha didn't teach vipassana- that is a modern invention/interpretation of the Buddha's teaching. and whether everyone has to > develop jhana. Yes, if they wish to follow the Noble Eightfold Path to completion, they must all develop jhana. There are no exceptions and path factors can't be dropped based on one's tastes or abilities. Are people not different, with different capacities? So? > When there is right understanding of the eightfold Path it is > accompanied by the other factors already, including right > concentration that assists right understanding in having one nama or > rupa as object and see it as it really is. This is nonsense. The Buddha didn't define Right Concentration in this way. You are misrepresenting the Buddha's teaching. (But, you are a very sweet person while you are doing it :-) > There were many debates, and see the archives, (U.P.) on the subject > of jhana. Perhaps needless to repeat all this? I have no desire to argue with you, Nina, over jhana. I am already aware of your twisted views which are impervious to change. I wrote for the benefit of Kristina, who is a new member and shouldn't be presented false information as if it was the truth. Metta, James #66150 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: House Builder? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 12/14/06 2:24:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, James - > >Howard: > > But no "house builder" any longer appears, not as craving or > ignorance > >nor imagined self, and so the speech surely IS poetic, IMO. > >--------------------------------------------- > > I don't want to get hung up on if the speech is poetic or not (poetic > has many definitions and can imply hypothetical); that isn't really > important. What I wanted to stress is that the Buddha, as Gotama, > had a 'little self' (a house-builder) and that upon enlightenment > that house-builder was seen for what it was and was destroyed. > > My ultimate point is that it isn't right for anyone to say "There is > no self", when the house-builder still exists. -------------------------------------------- Howard: It's not clear to me exactly what the alleged "little self" is supposed to be. I suspect it is just illusory concept. Prior to arahanthood, certainly the illusion of self exists and so do repeated mental operations that create that illusion. If that is what you are referring to, I agree they were in place, but to call something a "self" of any sort is to attribute more to it than it deserves, IMO. ------------------------------------------------ > > I don't know if I am expressing myself very well. This is a hard > topic. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: It may be an important one. I hope it will be possible for you to clarify this a bit. ----------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > ====================== With metta, Howard #66151 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:25 am Subject: Re: paticcasamuppada chandrafabian Dear Nina, Thank you, all this time I thought ordinary person only understand paticcasamuppada superficially or intelectually, not penetratively, but Sotapanna understand because they experienced the process through experiencing because of their strong sati and sampajanna. Are there any part of Abhidhamma which explain in detail the process? There are 7 books, I don't know which. Respectfully yours, Fabian #66152 From: "KRISTIN M" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:44 am Subject: to Ken- Re: New member intro -Kristin pfoceans77 Ken, Thank you very much for clarifying. I can now appreciate and understand what you have said. #66153 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:00 am Subject: Big Mind-Little Self/James upasaka_howard Hi, James - I've looked at Genpo Merzel's website. I'm not so favorably impressed at 1st glance, though I readily admit that I can't properly judge just from what I see there. I do note that he's doing a lot of selling, of CD's, retreats, etc. Also, despite his disclaimer, I do think he's attempting to put forward a shortcut of his own not based in the Dhamma but on modern psychology - kind of a role-play approach. I copy below one article that describes his approach. With metta, Howard _______________________ The Big Mind and the Little Self By Janet Rae BrooksThe Salt Lake Tribune July 27, 2002 When Dennis Merzel began his formal Zen studies three decades ago, his Japanese Zen master's methods left him perplexed. "DIE ON YOUR CUSHION!" Koryu Roshi exhorted his novices who sat cross-legged on cushions facing a wall at the Los Angeles Zen Center. "BECOME THE WALL!""I don't know what the hell he's talking about," Merzel remembers thinking. "And even if I knew, I'm not doing it."From that unlikely beginning, Brooklyn-born Merzel has gone on to become spiritual leader to thousands of Zen Buddhists around the world.But Merzel--now called Genpo Roshi--always knew the traditional Eastern approach to Zen didn't work for many Westerners. They don't like being told to die. Although he eventually realized the Zen master was commanding him to "die" in order to be reborn as a more compassionate being, he thought there had to be a better way to unlock the Zen door to Westerners.For decades, Genpo searched for the key to enable Westerners to shift from identifying with their own self to being identified with the whole cosmos--to the Universal or Big Mind. Three years ago, he finally found it.Call it the Western path to enlightenment.Through a combination of Western therapy and Zen practice, Roshi now shows Zen beginners in one-day seminars at Salt Lake City's Kanzeon Zen Center how to achieve an awakening that has taken many Zen practitioners years.And it's all possible, he says, because Westerners are suckers for a magic word: Please."We'll do anything for anyone if they say please," Roshi says.At recent Saturday seminar, Roshi--wearing khakis and a short-sleeved black shirt--strode into an airy upstairs room to take his place in a director's chair before a room of 60 people sitting in padded chairs grouped in a half-circle."This might seem bold, this might seem strange," he tells the group, "that you will have in one day--before lunch actually --the clarity and experience that a Zen master has. But Zen is seen as the school of sudden enlightenment. And we're just making sure it remains sudden."His technique to temporarily silence the "controller"--one's ego or commanding voice--is so simple that it's surprising it wasn't discovered earlier, he says. But such an insight wasn't possible as long as Zen remained an Eastern-centered discipline."What we're going to do is get permission from your ego to abandon itself, to stay in cold storage for a while," he says.Roshi assures us we are not being shown a shortcut that will rob us of our own struggles. "You will still have to walk your path," he says. "All this will do is give you some wisdom as you walk this path."After spending as much as 10 hours a day, nine months a year, sitting in meditation, Roshi wondered if he was making enlightenment too easy."That's a lot of time on a cushion," he says. "And to think someone dares to have this experience in a day?"But then he realized his struggles served a purpose. If a group climbing a mountain ran out of water and sent a couple of stronger members ahead to find more, do they then bring the water back to the group, even though no one else has climbed the mountain?Of course they do. Even after the group drinks the water, each member still has to climb the mountain."When I realized the folly of where I was stuck, this process came like that," Roshi says with a snap of his fingers.And the more people who live in a state of compassionate awakening the better, he says. Consciousness shouldn't be limited to monks, Zen centers and a smattering of individuals.Then Roshi asks to speak to our "controller." To signify our willingness and readiness to allow him access, we are to shift our chairs a few inches to reinforce the shift in our perspective."Who am I speaking to?" he asks."Controller," we say in unison.The controller's job is to control, he says. What functions might the controller serve, he asks?"Protection," someone answers. "Survival," says someone else. "Somebody needs to be in charge."Roshi then asks the controller for permission to speak to the voice of the skeptic. We shift our chairs."Who am I speaking to?""Skeptic," we say."Your job," he says, "is to be skeptical, to doubt, to question."M: Yes, with each voice that comes out or struggles to get out, I see another aspect of myself.R: Every time, it works with the same intensity, it just gets clearer. The beauty is that wherever one gets stuck, before or after enlightenment, the process allows one to "unstick" and make a shift. It doesn't matter from what position, there's going to be a shift. When someone does the process repeatedly, it gets easier and easier to let the process get on and let things flow.Q: Do you plan to do the Big Mind process every Sesshin?R: I could, but I don't know if I want to. What I want, is to give people the tools so that they can work with it by themselves, with some guidance. I want it to work for people who see me only once or twice a year.Incredibly, less than three hours after meeting Roshi, everyone in the room seems to be identifying with the cosmos. For participant Sally Small, Roshi's questions seemed irrelevant. "Big Mind is an all-inclusive frame of mind," she said after the seminar. "It doesn't get stuck in one shape or one color or anything."For Michelle Larsen, Big Mind mirrored a near-death experience she survived after a motorcycle accident a decade ago. "I've tried to explain it for 10 years," Larsen later said. "To know it could happen to everyone else. . ."We return to the controller. After experiencing Big Mind, what advice would you give to the self, Roshi asks?"Release," someone says. "Relax," says another. "Die on your cushion," says a third, to laughter.We switch to the voice of Peace, then to God, or the creator, before Roshi advises us to go to lunch as the integrated self. "Be mindful of all the voices," he says."I don't know whether I'm in Zen class or in therapy," says one participant as we file down the stairs.After lunch, we voyage through the voices of non-seeking, Big Mind, big heart and peace before Roshi calls us back to the voice of the controller. For Larsen, the return was traumatic. "It's like you're being crushed," she said. "It's almost audible."We then look at the voices of wisdom and compassion, and examine the difference between acting in the voice of the controller--the voice we probably consider our own--and the voice of the Master."The Master should be the owner," said Roshi. "The controller should be the servant. If you're run by the controller, you're run by greed. If you're run by the Master, you're run by wisdom, compassion and responsibility."But we can't live our Western lives--balancing marriage, religion, sexuality, children and home--in the voice of the Master, as can Asian monks in monasteries."Trust me on this one," said Roshi. "I was Master before I got married. I had to drop that one. I'm saving you a lot of pain. You'll thank me in five years. Don't go home in the voice of the Master. Go home in the voice of the integrated self."Copyright 2002, The Salt Lake Tribune. #66154 From: "KRISTIN M" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:50 am Subject: to Nina Re: New member intro -Kristin pfoceans77 Thank you to you also, Nina for you input. You have all been very informative. I am also glad I got another dialogue going. -Kristin #66155 From: "KRISTIN M" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:52 am Subject: To Howard Re: New member intro -Kristin pfoceans77 Thank you to you also Howard. You have been reassuring and helpful-Kristin #66156 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: new member intro nilovg Hi James, let everyone find out what is helpful for him. If sitting and develop calm meditation is helpful for you, do so. But there is no rule about this. When you say the Buddha did not teach vipassana, I have a feeling that you interprete vipassana in a differerent way, different from what I think. I mean by vipassana: satipatthana, or the eightfold Path. Developing right understanding of citta, cetasika and rupa in order to eradicate defilements. Eradicating the perversions of seeing what is impermanent as permanent, what is dukkha as happiness, what is non-self as self, what is foul as beautiful. To me it is very helpful as a foundation to know the different cittas raising in daily life, when there are attachment, aversion and ignorance and when there are non-attachment, non-aversion and understanding. In the beginning we cannot know this precisely, but understanding can grow. We can learn that we cannot manipulate cittas, that there are the appropriate conditions for their arising. Nina. Op 14-dec-2006, om 13:12 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I have no desire to argue with you, Nina, over jhana. I am already > aware of your twisted views which are impervious to change. I wrote > for the benefit of Kristina, who is a new member and shouldn't be > presented false information as if it was the truth. #66157 From: "kanchaa" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:33 am Subject: Please Help me with Vipassana! kanchuu2003 Hello Everyone! I have recently returned from Vipassana Meditaion camp which was of 10 days. The camp was guided by Teacher S.N. Goenka lead by Asst. teacher from Nepal. Now after returning home, I have problem meditating. I would be very thankful if someone could help me. I practice twice daily, an hour in the morning and evening. While I start my mediation, I practice Ana Pana for about 5 to 10 mins, then practice Vipassana and end with Metta. But when I meditate, I have my brain working simultaneously. My brain usually plans about future, sometime fantasize, analyze and I have less concentration in my meditation. My Vipassana meditation goes in very slow process due to lack of concentration. I have stopped practicing Metta as I am disturbed. Someone suggestion regarding the matter would be highly appreciated. Sincerely, Nitesh #66158 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Please Help me with Vipassana! upasaka_howard Hi, Nitesh - In a message dated 12/14/06 10:38:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, kanchuu2003@... writes: > > Hello Everyone! > > I have recently returned from Vipassana Meditaion camp which was of > 10 days. The camp was guided by Teacher S.N. Goenka lead by Asst. > teacher from Nepal. Now after returning home, I have problem > meditating. I would be very thankful if someone could help me. > > I practice twice daily, an hour in the morning and evening. While I > start my mediation, I practice Ana Pana for about 5 to 10 mins, then > practice Vipassana and end with Metta. But when I meditate, I have > my brain working simultaneously. My brain usually plans about > future, sometime fantasize, analyze and I have less concentration in > my meditation. My Vipassana meditation goes in very slow process due > to lack of concentration. I have stopped practicing Metta as I am > disturbed. > > Someone suggestion regarding the matter would be highly appreciated. > > Sincerely, > > Nitesh > ============================ I have a few comments: 1) Meditating at a retreat 6 or 7 hours a day and maintaining silence when not meditating is far different from meditating for two hours a day at home and living in standard fashion in all other respects. 2) It is natural for the mind to think. That's what it does. Thgere is no problem with thoughts arising - just don't "hop on the train"! ;-) Whenever you find that you have been lost in thought, that is a moment of mindfulness in action, and it serves to cultivate further mindfulness. Be pleased that being "lost" was discovered, smile, and simply return to meditating. Remember, meditation is not about special states but about cultivation of path factors. 3) Perhaps consider doing more of the breath meditation and less of the body sweeping in order to cultivate more ease. As you do this, pleasant sensations typically arise in the body anyway, and they can be examined, but with breath still at the center of attention. Your aim, as I see it, should be to develop calm and clarity. Keep a "light" attitude. Be relaxed but attentive, and follow a middle-way approach, with the "strings" neither too taut nor too slack. With metta, Howard #66159 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:04 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life, 151 nilovg Dear friends, As we have seen, not only akusala cittas, but also ahetuka cittas are asobhana cittas (cittas which are not accompanied by sobhana cetasikas). As regards the asobhana cittas which are ahetuka, the ahetuka cittas which arise in a process of cittas experiencing an object through one of the sense-doors, can arise only in the planes of existence where there are sense impressions. Seeing-consciousness and hearing-consciousness arise in the eleven sensuous planes of existence (the four woeful planes, the human being plane and the six heavenly planes which are sensuous planes, the deva planes), and they arise also in fifteen rúpa-brahma planes, thus, they arise in twenty- six planes of existence. They do not arise in the arúpa-brahma planes where there is no rúpa. Smelling-consciousness, tasting-consciousness body-consciousness arise only in the eleven sensuous planes of existence. Thus, they do not arise in the rúpa-brahma planes and in the arúpa-brahma planes. Pañca-dvåråvajjana-citta (five-door-adverting-consciousness), sampaìicchana-citta (receiving-consciousness) and santíraùa-citta (investigating-consciousness) arise in all planes where there are sense-impressions, thus, they arise in twenty-six planes: in the eleven sensuous planes and in fifteen rúpa-brahma planes; the asañña- satta plane is excepted. The mano-dvåråvajjana-citta (mind-door-adverting-consciousness) arises in all planes where there is nåma, thus, it arises in thirty planes. ****** Nina. #66160 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:07 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana III, 4. nilovg Dear friends, This moment should not be lost. We acquire from the scriptures many valuable reminders to develop understanding of nåma and rúpa. It is right understanding which should be emphasized, not concentration or effort. When understanding develops naturally, in daily life, there are also concentration and effort or energy accompanying paññå, they are cetasikas which perform their own functions. If we think of concentration and effort there can easily be attachment, or, when we worry about lack of concentration, there is aversion. Someone asked Khun Sujin whether he would have to stop reading in order to be aware of different realities. He was wondering how paññå could know different realities while he was reading. Khun Sujin asked him whether during the time he was paying respect to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha and reciting the Påli texts, he could, in between, also think of other things. There can be many moments of ignorance in between, thus, ignorance can arise extremely rapidly. Evenso when paññå has been developed it is extremely fast. We underestimate the power of paññå. Paññå is different from what we think it is. We are full of the idea of self and thus we imagine that paññå can only know something if we first focus on it and exert effort. We may think that it is not possible for paññå to know the difference between sense-door process and mind-door process, since the different processes of citta run extremely fast. However, it can be known by paññå. It is known by paññå at the first stage of "tender insight" which is the beginning stage. Or we may mistakenly think that there cannot be sati and paññå in a sense-door process. Also in sense-door processes there are conditions for akusala cittas or kusala cittas. When there are kusala cittas they can be accompanied by paññå or unaccompanied by paññå, depending on conditions. Nobody can tell paññå to arise or not to arise, nobody can predict the object of paññå. When it arises it performs its function of understanding. The paññå which is vipassanå of the first stage of "tender insight" clearly knows rúpa as rúpa and nåma as nåma, and it knows this through the mind-door. It is useful to know more about this stage of insight, because then we shall realize what should be known and what we do not know yet. ****** Nina. #66161 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paticcasamuppada nilovg Dear Fabian, Larry is doing postings of the Visuddhimagga Ch XVII and this is exactly on the dependent origination. I translate (not literally, too difficult!) some parts of its commentary, the tiika. Maybe this is of some interst to you. We are now on: kammaformations condition vi~n~naa.na (vipaakacitta). We go very, very slowly. I try to add a conclusion to help myself and others not to forget that this is not theory. This project is running several years but we do not mind. See what you like to do. Nina. Op 14-dec-2006, om 13:25 heeft chandrafabian het volgende geschreven: > Are there any part of Abhidhamma which explain in detail the > process? There are 7 books, I don't know which. #66162 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Please Help me with Vipassana! nilovg Dear Nitesh, it is good to hear from you again. I understand your problems. Perhaps it could help if you follow my daily postings of Letters on Vipassana. May be these evoke questions. It is a subject one cannot understand immediately. Discussing, questions and answers can help. See what you would like to do. Nina. Op 14-dec-2006, om 16:33 heeft kanchaa het volgende geschreven: > Someone suggestion regarding the matter would be highly appreciated. #66163 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:56 pm Subject: For Kristin buddhatrue For some reason, this post ended up in my personal mailbox; but I'm sure it's meant for the group: Dear Kristina, (James, All,) I like this discussion (a perpetual one): N: "...This is to James about jhana being necessary: We can check the Tipitaka ourselves and see whether the Buddha ever said that jhana is a necessary condition for vipassana..." J: "...I would like you to show me where the Buddha even taught vipassana! The Buddha didn't teach vipassana- that is a modern invention/interpretation of the Buddha's teaching..." I'm fairly new here too. And new to encountering the Dhamma. I've definitely experienced the 'rush' by the 'meditators' and 'non-meditators' as I was finding my way to what fits for me. I've noticed my own reactions: Its hard to disentangle one's self from all the competing gravitational fields. The biggest planet seems to be the one named Jhaana. Orbiting asteroids are all pulled towards it. A Story: On another forum, in my very early (and therefore naive and formative) days, a helpful participant engaged me after reading my overly trusting posts in open forum. I had some vibes about him, kept them in mind and interacted with him to see where it lead. He was into jhaana and samatha-bhaavaana. He was into the 'sutta-only' approach. He suggested it to be easy and just a matter of following steps and working hard at it. He was into 'intuition'. He was into 'teaching' people. He was into flattery. He suggested to me that I, like him, was likely a Stream-Enterer - I didn't really understand the import of this at the time. He was into collecting adherents. I let him give me his perspective on jhaana. When he glibly mentioned he attained to sotaapanna on open forum my reservations began to come to fruition. When, I surmise, he noticed that my name appears on Rob K.'s web-site (where I hasten to note I function as the janitor-who-formats-the-posts) he contacted me to warn me that I was going wrong, although he couldn't be direct with me about it when I invited him to be. Reading between the lines, which is often not well-advised, I read him to be angry and petulant. (I'm rather pissed off at him as well, sorry to say.) The one true thing he said, and he didn't mean it in the way it ended up striking me, was that before one can succeed in jhaana one must be able to have 'sustained mindfulness'. Although he treated this as he did jhaana - that is easy to have with a little work and totally under one's control - the notion stuck with me. Something about this was correct. I knew from the beginning that this person was wrong and was glad to have waited until it was shown. He helped me to appreciate the Theravada perspective, the suttas, and to begin to appreciate the role of sati. He didn't know he was doing this - he wanted me to start main-lining jhaana and was sorely angry when I did not. I contrast this with the way it felt to encounter the notion of 'no-control' at around the same time. Pursuing this as well, has had a much more wholesome result. Personally, I count myself lucky to have wound up here. I've learned to understand bhaavaana and consider it very cool that this goes on all day, sitting with legs bent and back straight or sitting on the head. Anyway, got that off my chest. Stay cool, Kristina, keep reading here. Scott. #66164 From: "kanchaa" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Please Help me with Vipassana! kanchuu2003 Thank you very much Howard and Nina, Today morning I mediateted for an hour and I feel good. Better than yesterday. Maybe I should focus on Breath for few days for a while rather sweeping vibration in the body. Today I plan to go for an hour group meditaion so that I can charge myself witht the frequency of the others. I have one more question. While I meditate, do I have to remind myself everytime "Impermanece" or sweeping the vibration is enough. Most of the time when I think something else then I forget about Impermancence too. Well, I will keep you informed about it. Once again Thank you very much. Sincerely, Nitesh #66165 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:57 pm Subject: Re: House Builder? buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > It may be an important one. I hope it will be possible for you to > clarify this a bit. > ----------------------------------------------- I don't know if this topic is an important one or not; it's probably not very important. But I will try to re-explain my thinking- which is still nebulous at this point. The Buddha taught that the five khandas are not-self. His audience was ancient India and he didn't have to provide too much further explanation. They understood rather quickly what he meant by self because they had spent quite a long time pondering the self. The Vedic religion and its writings predominately addressed the self and its place in the universe. The idea/knowledge about the self seems to be deeply ingrained in the psyche of most of the Asian peoples- even to this day. However, for a western audience, who's thinking about the self stems from Greece with Aristotle and Plato, the ideas about various aspects of the self are not so well-developed. The self is associated with purely utilitarian ideas like "I think therefore I am". When you address such an audience with the Buddha's teaching of the five khandas being not-self, they won't have the first clue of what that means because they haven't pondered the various aspects of the self. What Genpo Roshi does is talk the westerner through the various aspects of the self so that they can more clearly see the self. Then he talks the westerner through the non-dualistic aspects of mind (such as limitless consciousness and limitless compassion) so that they can see the differences. Then the participants begin to see that what they thought was THE SELF is actually nothing more than a little self, a limited self, an illusionary self. This is just an introduction and Genpo Roshi encourages further learning of the dhamma and meditation practice to deepen the understanding developed during the workshops. Like I said, I was skeptical when I first started to watch this process because it seemed just too psychoanalytical. However, as I saw it unfold, I think it does have real benefit for the participants. After the workshop, during interviews, I saw people from all walks of life and nationalities, never before exposed to Buddhism, speaking about self, non-self, and Buddha-mind like those with years of study and practice. What I was attempting to do was to see if there was any type of connection between Genpo Roshi's approach and the suttas. What came to mind was the passage I quoted. However, no one really seems to know what I am talking about or where I am going with this, so it would probably be best to just forget about it and move on. ;-)) Metta, James #66166 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Please Help me with Vipassana! buddhatrue Hi Nitesh, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kanchaa" wrote: > > Thank you very much Howard and Nina, > > Today morning I mediateted for an hour and I feel good. Better than > yesterday. That's good to hear. Meditation should bring joy and ease of comfort or you aren't doing it the right way. > > Maybe I should focus on Breath for few days for a while rather > sweeping vibration in the body. My advice is that you completely abandon the technique taught by S.N. Goenka. It isn't what the Buddha taught and you will find much more benefit practicing what the Buddha taught. May I recommend this pamphlet called "Keeping the Breath in Mind" as most closely matching what the Buddha taught: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html#toc Today I plan to go for an hour group > meditaion so that I can charge myself witht the frequency of the > others. It is nice to meditate with others because it is encouraging for the practice, but you aren't a 'battery' which needs 'charging'. ;-)) You can get the proper benefits from the proper meditation even when practicing all by yourself. > > I have one more question. While I meditate, do I have to remind myself > everytime "Impermanece" or sweeping the vibration is enough. Most of > the time when I think something else then I forget about Impermancence > too. You don't have to remind yourself of the concept of "impermanence" if the meditation is done properly; you will know impermanence directly because knowledge of it will arise spontaneously. And, again, don't sweep the body searching for sensations- that isn't the proper method. Follow the method taught in "Keeping the Breath in Mind" which connects breath with body awareness in a more natural way- in the way the Buddha taught. > > Well, I will keep you informed about it. That would be nice. Good luck with your practice. > > Once again Thank you very much. > > Sincerely, > > Nitesh > Metta, James #66167 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: new member intro buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > let everyone find out what is helpful for him. If sitting and develop > calm meditation is helpful for you, do so. But there is no rule about > this. Yes there is a rule about this. The Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path which includes Right Concentration defined as jhana. You can't pick and choose which path factors you want to follow- they must all be followed. Maybe you don't want to practice jhana in this lifetime- fine. But if you are ever to make an end to suffering, you are going to have to practice jhana at some point, even in future lifetimes. > When you say the Buddha did not teach vipassana, I have a feeling > that you interprete vipassana in a differerent way, different from > what I think. I mean by vipassana: satipatthana, or the eightfold > Path. Oh my goodness, talk about mixing up terms! Vipassana, satipatthana, and the eightfold path are three different things, yet here you are saying they are the same thing. Of course, I already know your reasoning behind this interpretation, no need to explain. And you should already know that I don't agree. (You know, we both know each other's positions so well by now that debate is pointless. We should just exchange Christmas recipes. ;-)) Developing right understanding of citta, cetasika and rupa in > order to eradicate defilements. Eradicating the perversions of seeing > what is impermanent as permanent, what is dukkha as happiness, what > is non-self as self, what is foul as beautiful. > > To me it is very helpful as a foundation to know the different cittas > raising in daily life, when there are attachment, aversion and > ignorance and when there are non-attachment, non-aversion and > understanding. In the beginning we cannot know this precisely, but > understanding can grow. We can learn that we cannot manipulate > cittas, that there are the appropriate conditions for their arising. Yeah, yeah, I've heard it all before. ;-)) BTW, here is a good site for Christmas recipes (hope you have a joyous holiday!): http://www.christmas-joy.com/recipes/ #66168 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:34 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 610- Wholesome Deeds(g) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd Even when one does not have things to give there can still be accomplishment of generosity. Another one of the ten “bases” which is also a way of generosity is the “base of thanksgiving” or rejoicing in someone else’s kusala. In order to be able to apply ourselves to this way of kusala we should understand the benefit of kusala. When we have confidence ourselves in generosity, in the observance of morality and in the development of insight, we can appreciate these ways of kusala in someone else. We can appreciate the good qualities of someone else and express our appreciation in words so that others may also rejoice in such qualities. When we appreciate someone else’s kusala there is generosity, envy does not arise at such moments. When we know about this way of generosity we may remember to speak with kusala citta about the good qualities of other people instead of saying unpleasant things about them. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66169 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] processes of cittas. sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (Dinesh & friends of Kom), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, Dinesh, > A good idea. The subject is important. Reflecting on it will help us > to know ourselves better. > It concerns so much our daily life. ... > > Dana: The Practice of Giving: Selected essays edited > > > by Bhikkhu Bodhi > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel367.html .... S: Han sent me a note off-list mentioning that he will gladly send installments on the return from his one month trip away. (I don't think he will have an internet connection on his trip). Dinesh, pls join in then with any comments or even start first if you like. ..... Btw, several friends have referred to Kom and his past posts. I occasionally hear from his sister who visits him in his monastery. He re-ordained several months ago now and is staying at a branch monastery of Nong Pah Pong in Chantaburi, Thailand. I don't think he has any internet connection there. His ordained name is Amatakavesaka. Amataka +the deathless (i.e nibbana), vesaka as in vesak, the full moon day which is Buddha's birthday/parinibbana...? Metta, Sarah ======= #66170 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > K: "I am not sure what the Abhidhamma has to say about poor eyesight. It > has been discussed on DSG (what hasn't?) but I don't remember. When a > person is vision-impaired, does eye-consciousness occur in a weakened > form, or does it occur in the usual form but less frequently?" .... S: I think the former. Kamma conditions that particular kind of weakened eye-consciousness which experiences its particular visible objects. It's like when we walk into a darkish room, we can't necessarily say there is any less seeing, but the visible objects seen depend on the kamma-produced seeing at the time. Of course, if the eyes are closed and there isn't any seeing at all, like in a dream, then it's quite different. .... > L: What I was going for is that putting on glasses doesn't change the > reality of visual data. It changes the visual experience. One might well > say it changes kamma result. .... S: Yes, I think I agree. The glasses are a condition for the kamma-produced seeing to experience particular visual data in a particular way. Of course, no two people ever see the same visual data and no two moments of experiencing visual data are ever the same either. My best shot for now... Is that how you see it Ken H? Metta, Sarah ======== #66171 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas. sarahprocter... Dear Voyeur Scott & all, Lots of good detail in your post following discussions on seeing and visible object. I'm not sure any other voyeurs have responded, so let me take a *look*: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Kh. Sujin, A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, pp. 51-52: > > "Seeing occurs at a moment different from thinking about what appears. > For everyone, citta arises just for a moment, then it is succeeded by > the next one; this happens continuously. Thus, it seems that the > whole wide world is there, with its many different people and things. > But we should have right understanding of what the world is. We > should know that realities appear one at a time, and that they appear > only for one moment of citta. Since cittas arise and fall away, > succeeding one another very rapidly, it seems that the world does not > disintegrate, the world lasts, with beings, people, and many different > things. In reality the world lasts just for one moment, namely, when > citta arises and cognises an object, just for that moment, and then it > falls away together with that citta." > > Can an inference be made from the statement: '...it seems that the > world does not disintegrate...'? .... Sarah: We think that we really see people and trees and computers and that they seem to last. In fact at the moment of seeing, there is just the world of visible object appearing momentarily and then the world falls away. .... >That is, can one infer that, > following this basic tenet, 'base' perception is not integrated? This > seems to me to follow, at least logically. Therefore, the imagined > perceptual experience, say an experience with well-developed pa~n~na, > might in fact be one of bare moments, one at a time, and rather > 'dis-integrated'. .... Sarah: Again, seeing just experiences visible object without any idea of integration of disintegration. The sanna accompanying it marks it just as it is. I don't think we can refer to it as 'base' or 'bare' even. Just as it appears now without any idea of a 'thing' or 'person' in it. After many, many countless experiences of such visible objects with countless mind-door processes in between, ideas are formed and the 'integrated', lasting world seems real. ... > At this most basic level, I opine, a moment would not be an integrated > unity or whole of any kind, full or partial. .... Sarah: In the sense I've just referred to, I agree, but the problem is that people then start to try and 'disintegrate' by thinking and visible object never is known. .... > Too basic for there to be 'scenes' or 'colour mosaics'. A moment > would be more precisely described as analogous to a 'pixel'. The > integration is the illusion, although clearly it happens since one > sees 'the whole picture', in other words, I think 'scenes' and 'colour > mosaics' would be at a more intermediate level of 'organisation'. .... Sarah: I personally find the pixel idea misleading. But as soon as we start thinking about a scene or colour mosaic, that can be misleading too, because already we're thinking of ideas of these. However, it's quite wrong to think that visible object is dots or pixels or a blank of colour as some do. It's just what appears now! It was listening to K.Sujin talking about seeing and visible object when I first heard her that convinced me that I was hearing the truth. In a way it's so obvious and in another way, it's so subtle because we do carry so much baggage. .... > From the CMA, III, 8, on Seeing, p.123: > > "In a cognitive process at the sense doors, after the moment of > adverting, there arises a citta which directly cognises the impingent > object. This citta, and the specific funtion it performs, is > determined by the nature of the object. If the object is a visible > form, eye-consciousness arises seeing it...In this context the > function of seeing...[does] not refer to the cognitive acts which > explicitly identify the objects of sight...as such. They signify, > rather, the rudimentary momentary occasions of consciousness by which > sense datum is experienced in its bare immediacy and simplicity prior > to all identificatory cognitive operations." ..... Sarah: [Just to point out first that this is from the Guide, not from the Ab.Sangaha itself. I just looked in its commentary, but we don't find it]. The Guide here says 'In this context the function of seeing...[does] not refer to the cognitive acts which explicitly identify the objects of sight...as such.' Yes, this is correct - the 'identifying' as such occurs later in the mind-door processes. However, we should be clear that the seeing citta itself fully experiences or cognizes visible object when v.o. is experienced. Remember the Vism simile about sanna, vinnana(citta)and panna that we get so confused about? Citta is like the adult who knows exactly what the coin is, even though she doesn't understand it in the way that the money-dealer does. Sanna arises with each citta, marking it clearly for later conceptual ideas to formulate. 'They signify, rather, the rudimentary momentary occasions of consciousness by which sense datum is experienced in its bare immediacy and simplicity prior to all identificatory cognitive operations.' .... Sarah: These BB comments (I believe) are fine, but perhaps 'bare immediacy and simplicity' can be misleading? Remember the descriptions in the Atthasalini about the artist's creation and how it's all produced by the mind and how the nature of citta is so very, very variegated and complex? I think we may underestimate what citta may experience at any moment, inc. the moment of seeing. It experiences/sees exactly what appears in all its complexity, I believe. Interesting point. ..... > Seeing a world, I think, is the end product of a very intricate and > complex process. It is the speed with which this is said to happen > which, I think, accounts for the 'end product'. .... Sarah: I would say there is a world appearing at each moment of experience. However, in ignorance, it seems to us that the worlds of sight, sound and so on do not disintegrate but last and are 'something'. The sense experiences 'cover up' the mind-door experiences in between. As you say, this is very intricate and complex. I think the 'end product' is mostly the result of sanna and moha ...oh and lobha... .... > Speaking of thinking about seeing, thinking, and speed of process, > Atthasaalinii, pp. 95-99 (Nina has given this before, but its good): > > "...the visible object (light and colour) comes into the avenue of the > mind-door the moment it strikes the sensitive organ, that is to say, > it causes vibrations of the life-continuum...Just as a bird flying > through the sky and alighting on a tree touches the branch of the tree > and its shadow strikes the ground, the touching with the branch and > the spreading of the shadow taking place in one moment simultaneously, > so the contact with the sensitive organ etc., by the presented object > of sense is simultaneous with its coming into the avenue of the > mind-door through its ability to cause the life-continuum to > vibrate...It should be understood that an apperceptional thought > (javana.m) having any one of the objects arises in the manner > described. Thus the apperception of a visible object arises at the > eye-door and also at the mind-door." .... Sarah: Yes, it's good. Like a shadow....'taking place in one moment simultaneously'. ... > This goes a bit afield and starts to look at the javana process, which > I would also like to understand better but that is for another thread, > I guess. .... Sarah: Anytime. ... >Also, as Howard notes, other realities have functions which > contribute to the illusion, sa~n~na for example. .... Sarah: Sanna plays a very major role in the marking, recollection, illusion and ideas. Of course, as we always emphasise, an arahant with no illusion still knows what a glass of water or a house is! (Howard, I would point out in this chapter of Ab.Sangaha and its commentary, Ch3, Compendium of functions, seeing, hearing and so on are described in terms of being the functions (kicca) of cittas.) .... > Oops, too much. Sorry. .... Sarah: Not at all. Thanks for the quotes and your helpful reflections, Scott. Metta, Sarah ===== #66172 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali dictionary sarahprocter... Hi Bill & any other newcomers, Welcome to DSG! Thanks for your message and questions. It also helps when newcomers mention that it's a first post.... --- bjones6513 wrote: > Hi, > I'm new to this group, although I have been reading the posts for some > time. I was wondering, since Pali is used quite frequently, could > anyone > recommend a Pali dictionary? It seems that they all vary slightly in > translation. .... S: I think it depends how much detail you want. For just a very simple glossary of frequently used Pali terms here, download the Pali glossary in the 'files' section. For detail on common and important terms, keep a link handy to Nyantiloka's Pali dictionary which many of us use frequently: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/dic3_a.htm If you look under 'Pali' in 'Useful Posts' in the files, you'll also find past letters recommending other Pali dictionaries on-line. We have a very old, thin dictionary by Buddhadatta, 'Pali-English Dictionary'. I don't know if it's on-line or available anywhere. If anyone knows, I'd be glad to hear as our copy is falling to pieces and needs replacing. There's also a large PTS dictionary by Rhys Davids and Stede which we were given by PTS and which I sometimes refer to. It's also on-line: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Pls also feel very free to ask anyone to elaborate on any terms used. You'll do others a favour in this. .... > Also, where do I download the discussions with A. Sujin that are > mentioned in the discussion group? I'd be interested in listening to > them. .... http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ At this link we keep a copy of the entire archives for easy scrolling/down-loading/searching and underneath these, you'll find sets of edited discussions with A.Sujin referred to. The first set you come to are discussions with Erik and others which are relatively easy to follow for those who haven't listened before to A.Sujin and for those who like to hear controversy too:-). Underneath this set are the recent Bangkok, Feb 2006 discussions with Nina, us and other friends. These include detail on some intricate topics, some of which are currently being discussed here, like nimitta and sakkaya ditthi etc. Please let us know anything you listen to of interest or anything that doesn't make sense or anything you disagree with! Thanks again for your obvious interest, Bill. If you feel inclined to do so, pls let us know where you live or anything about your background and interest in the Dhamma. Look forward to speaking to you later. Metta, Sarah ======= #66173 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas recepy. new member intro nilovg Hi James, We know each other. You are right. We both dislike debates. My Christmas recepy: no matter what you do, it is so beneficial to know the different cittats that motivate your writing, speech, actions. We can learn so much from the cittas that arise. They are conditioned by our accumulated inclinations. Think of the book the roots of Good and Evil, you have read and Phil spoke about. Do you have a recepy for me, but no debates! Perhaps you have some good reminder. Nina. Op 15-dec-2006, om 2:30 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > (You know, we both know each > other's positions so well by now that debate is pointless. We should > just exchange Christmas recipes. ;-)) #66174 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kanchaa: Please Help me with Vipassana! nilovg Dear Nitesh, As Sarah said you will find different opinions on meditation and we can learn from exchanges. It is so interesting that everyone is conditioned to write in this way or that way. Cittas motivate one's writing and this is conditioned by one's accumulated inclinations, even from past lives. The fact that one is inclined to samatha is also conditioned by accumulated inclinations. You asked my opinion on a link about concentration on breathing sent by James. This subject is far above my head and I cannot say anything about it. Too difficult for me, I have no experience with regard to concentration on breathing. But a remark you made makes me reflect more: It shows that you can think of only one object at a time, not more than one. Thinking is done by many kinds of cittas, arising and falling away. It seems that there is a long lasting period of thinking, but in reality many, many cittas have arisen and are then gone forever. They all go and never come back. We can learn from this experience, we can begin to see that cittas do not last. This is a beginning of understanding intellectually impermanence. You remind yourself of the truth by saying impermanence. Im-per-ma- nence: there are many sounds that are experienced by hearing. Hearing is a citta and it is different from the citta that is thinking about the meaning of what is heard. Countless cittas arise and fall away when you say: impermanence. Each one of these is accompanied by the mental factor, cetasika, remembrance, sa~n~naa which marks each object and remembers it. That is why you can think of the meaning of sounds and words that are formed, done by countless cittas.This gives you some idea of the impermanence of cittas. But reminding oneself and thinking is not enough. Understanding more about cittas, cetasikas and rupas is a foundation for the development of insight in stages. Through insight the truth of impermanence can be directly experienced. This is a long process of learning. Nina. Op 15-dec-2006, om 1:52 heeft kanchaa het volgende geschreven: > While I meditate, do I have to remind myself > everytime "Impermanece" or sweeping the vibration is enough. Most of > the time when I think something else then I forget about Impermancence > too. #66175 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:16 am Subject: Re: new member intro jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hallo Joop (James), > -------- Hallo Nina, James, all N: I did not want to go into details too much. I have nothing against sitting meditation, but it is different from vipassana. J: I'm glad to hear you nothing against it, although doing sitting meditation or not doing sitting meditation is not a detail, as you suggest. I conclude you use the term 'vipassana' in another way then I do. To me it's a name of the meditation instructed by Mahasi Sayadav. And to me it's the practice of one of the eight aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path we has to do: right mindfulnes. N: The word formal meditation is not used in the Tipataka and commentaries, and therefore I avoid this expression. J: I'm glad to hear, I avoid this expression too but some in DSG use it. Another topic is if vipassana meditation (aka insight meditation) is mentioned in the Suttas. James states it's not and I agree 'doing' (apology for this term) jhana is mentioned more clearly and 'doing' vipassana not. I still have two arguments: - We had to do (yes, 'do', this time without apology) all eight aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path, including right mindfulness - The Maha Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22), is according some about (my) vipassana meditation About my second theme N: We do not have to speculate how it is being a sotapanna. J: I'm glad to hear, it is done too much in DSG (the same about being a arahat). N: But here is another reason to mention the sotaapanna: in which direction is the development of vipassana going? What defilements are eradicated? J: That's not another reason. And to me the aim of vipassana meditation is not 'the eradication of defilements'. In fact I don't like that expression: it is to negative, to agressive. Don't you have a more positive formulae? Metta Joop #66176 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:59 am Subject: Buddhist Image Gallery is Updated! bhikkhu5 Please enjoy Buddhist Image Gallery at: http://what-buddha-said.net/gallery/main.php Click 'View Slide-Show' and lean back... Radom option is recommended. Topics: Buddha Images: 552 items; Views: 4100 Dhamma Images: 1356 items; Views: 3494 Sangha People: 600 items; Views: 1927 Buddhist Ceremonies: 29 items; Views: 370 Buddhist Wallpapers: 101 items; Views: 1316 Sri Lanka: 114 items; Views: 864 Books, Graphics & Maps: 119 items; Views: 1067 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #66177 From: "icarofranca" Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: new member intro icarofranca Hi James! >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > Oh my goodness, talk about mixing up terms! Vipassana, satipatthana, > and the eightfold path are three different things, yet here you are > saying they are the same thing. >---------------------------------------------------------------------- Good! could you elaborate such distinction with more detalis ? Please, do it: it will be a benefit for all DSG members! Mettaya, Ã?caro #66178 From: "kanchaa" Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:54 am Subject: How to control your anger! kanchuu2003 Dear All, Please suggest me how do you control your anger.... If there is someone that you cant get rid of and is contiously bothering you, how do you deal with it? How can you practice dhamma.. Sincerely, Nitesh #66179 From: "bjones6513" Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:48 am Subject: Re: Pali dictionary bjones6513 Hi Sarah, In answer to your questions: I live in Naples, Florida and spend part of the year in Thailand. We go back again for 3 months next October. I've practiced for about 15 years mainly in the Theravadan tradition and, yes, I practice meditation, which seems to be a subject of controversy. I'm very much interested in understanding the Abhidhamma which is one reason I've subscribed to this group to begin with. Just finishing a book by Analayo on the Satipatthana Sutta. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in that topic. Also, a friend attended the Big Mind/Little Mind retreat that was mentioned. She did not get much from it although some people claimed they felt differently but that could have just been a suggestion on the part of the teacher. It appears that everyone wants to find a shortcut to realization but I have yet to find one that that works. One last thing: We're looking for a teacher in the Thai Forest tradition for when we return. Can anyone recommend one? We were thinking about going to Kongen (sp) to look up Long Por Boon Peng. Any thoughts? With regards, Bill With kind regards, Bill #66180 From: "bjones6513" Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali dictionary bjones6513 Corrected spelling" Luang Phor Boonpheng Kappako #66181 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka sarahprocter... Hi Ken H, Larry, Howard & all, On second thoughts, a little fine-tuning on what I wrote in a bit of a rush earlier: --- sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Ken H & Larry, > > --- LBIDD@... wrote: > > K: "I am not sure what the Abhidhamma has to say about poor eyesight. > It > > has been discussed on DSG (what hasn't?) but I don't remember. When a > > person is vision-impaired, does eye-consciousness occur in a weakened > > form, or does it occur in the usual form but less frequently?" > .... > S1: I think the former. Kamma conditions that particular kind of weakened > eye-consciousness which experiences its particular visible objects. ... S2: I'm not sure we can refer to a 'weakened eye-consciousness' at all. Seeing is just seeing regardless, but it is conditioned by eye-sensitivity or eye-base rupa which of course varies at birth and throughout life and from moment to moment according to kamma. Here's a quote for Howard too (relating to other threads, I think) from Sammohavinodani transl (PTS), Classification of the Structure of Conditions, 688: "Firstly, in one who is reborn by means of either profitable result or unprofitable result, according as is faculties mature, [so] the five profitable resultant eye- [etc.] consciousnesses occur, accomplishing the functions of seeing - [etc.], on being instigated [respectively] by a desirable or desirable-neutral visible datum, etc, as objects come into the focus of the eye, etc, and having eye-sensitivity (cakkhu pasaada) as their [material] support. Likewise the five unprofitable resultant [consciousnesses]; the only difference being this, that the visible data, etc. as object for these are undesirable or undesirable-neutral...." .... >S1: It's > like when we walk into a darkish room, we can't necessarily say there is > any less seeing, but the visible objects seen depend on the > kamma-produced > seeing at the time. .... S2: Actually, it's the seeing which depends on the visible object (as well as eye-base and other conditions). .... >S1:Of course, if the eyes are closed and there isn't > any > seeing at all, like in a dream, then it's quite different. > .... > > L: What I was going for is that putting on glasses doesn't change the > > reality of visual data. It changes the visual experience. One might > well > > say it changes kamma result. > .... > S: Yes, I think I agree. ... S2: Well, I agree to rephrase it a little:-) ... >S1: The glasses are a condition for the > kamma-produced seeing to experience particular visual data in a > particular > way. Of course, no two people ever see the same visual data and no two > moments of experiencing visual data are ever the same either. > > My best shot for now... Is that how you see it Ken H? .... S2: I expect everyone is completely cross-eyed by now, but no good blaming the visible object or the glasses....it's the kamma:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #66182 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Please Help me with Vipassana! upasaka_howard Hi, Nitesh (ans Nina) - In a message dated 12/14/06 7:56:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, kanchuu2003@... writes: > > Thank you very much Howard and Nina, > > Today morning I mediateted for an hour and I feel good. Better than > yesterday. > > Maybe I should focus on Breath for few days for a while rather > sweeping vibration in the body. Today I plan to go for an hour group > meditaion so that I can charge myself witht the frequency of the > others. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I would stick with the breath as central meditation object for a while. (It took the Buddha "all the way", BTW.) As for group meditation, I have no idea of whether there are "group vibes" or not. But I suspect that it is more a matter of one's attitude than of "charging" oneself. The greatest meditators of present times and past meditated in complete isolation. -------------------------------------------- > > I have one more question. While I meditate, do I have to remind myself > everytime "Impermanece" or sweeping the vibration is enough. Most of > the time when I think something else then I forget about Impermancence > too. -------------------------------------------- Howard: When you *are* doing the Goenka body-sweeping meditation or any other meditating, don't intentionally think about impermanance or anything else. Just attend to what actually arises in mind and body without grasping onto it and without getting into a mental dialog. When actual direct "seeing" of impermanence arises, it is not a matter of thinking. -------------------------------------------- > > Well, I will keep you informed about it. > > Once again Thank you very much. > > Sincerely, > > Nitesh > ======================= Please keep in mind "the long run" and the middle-way mode of practice. Calm persistence without expectation is the way to go, IMO. Bhavana is cultivation leading to eventual equanimity, wisdom, relinquishment, and awakening. It is not an attempt to strong-arm one's way through a door into a magical realm of special effects. Seen rightly, this very realm is already "magical". In the religious tradition into which I was born, God is described to be "as close to us as breathing". I think that is true of nibbana, though the *realization* of nibbana is rather further away! ;-) With metta, Howard #66183 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: House Builder? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 12/14/06 8:10:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > What I was attempting to do was to see if there was any type of > connection between Genpo Roshi's approach and the suttas. What came > to mind was the passage I quoted. However, no one really seems to > know what I am talking about or where I am going with this, so it > would probably be best to just forget about it and move on. ;-)) > ====================== LOL! Well, I follow you about Merzel, and I agree that his approach might be useful as a subsidiary one. I suspect, however, that not too much should be made of the "house builder" personification of the Buddha's. With metta, Howard #66184 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:20 am Subject: new member intro, jhana, vipassana nilovg Hallo Joop, ------ I still have two arguments: - We had to do (yes, 'do', this time without apology) all eight aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path, including right mindfulness - The Maha Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22), is according some about (my) vipassana meditation ------ N: As you remember right understanding comes first, is the leader. But I am disinclined to debate (I tell you below). Ken H wrote many posts about this. ------- N: But here is another reason to mention the sotaapanna: in which direction is the development of vipassana going? What defilements are eradicated? J: That's not another reason. And to me the aim of vipassana meditation is not 'the eradication of defilements'. In fact I don't like that expression: it is to negative, to agressive. Don't you have a more positive formulae? ------- N: to reach the end of dukkha. But I do not see it as aggressive to have less attachment, aversion and ignorance. I do not mind your using the word 'do' by the way. Citta and cetasikas are active, and they are not little agents, or selves! Objection, to Howard! Now why I do not debate much: very busy with the Dutch ADL, going over it, sending it to Marjo (sorry: he or she? I forgot) Also I have to finish revising perfections and there is always the Visuddhimagga, of course. Nina. #66185 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas! Well, in that case I'll en upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/15/06 1:38:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > (Howard, I would point out in this chapter of Ab.Sangaha and its > commentary, Ch3, Compendium of functions, seeing, hearing and so on are > described in terms of being the functions (kicca) of cittas.) > ========================= Oh! In that case I'll entirely revise my thinking about agency terminology!! LOLOL! With metta and a wink, Howard #66186 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:04 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life. 152 nilovg Dear friends, People are inclined to speculate about the place where they will be reborn. Would we like to be reborn in the human plane? We cling to life in the human plane and we do not always realize the many moments of akusala vipåka we are bound to receive in this world: we are threatened by calamities such as war and hunger, there is old age, sickness and death. Some people would like to be reborn in a heavenly plane; they like to experience pleasant things through the senses. One may wish for rebirth in a heavenly plane, but whether or not this will happen depends on one's kamma. Birth is result, it does not take place without cause. If one performs many good deeds one cultivates the cause which will bring a pleasant result but there is no way to know when the result will take place, this is beyond control. Are we afraid of death? Most people want to prolong their lives. They fear death because they feel uncertain of the future. If one is not an ariyan (a noble person who has attained enlightenment) there may be rebirth in hell. We do not like to think of rebirth in a woeful plane, but there may be deeds performed in the past which can cause rebirth in hell. Even the Buddha was in one of his former lives born in hell [1]. It is useless to think of hell with aversion and fear, but the thought of hell is helpful when it reminds us to develop kusala at this moment, instead of akusala. ---------- Footnote: 1. This has been referred to in the “Múga-Pakkha-Jåtaka”,VI, no. 538. ******* Nina. #66187 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:11 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, III, 5 nilovg Dear friends, The rúpas which are the different sense objects are experienced through their corresponding sense-doors and then through the mind- door. We may have doubts about this. We may believe that through the mind-door there can only be thinking about concepts and not the experience of rúpas. We read in the "Atthasåliní " (I, part II, Analysis of Terms, 72-74) that sense objects are experienced through the senses and then through the mind-door. We read about the javana cittas [1] arising in a sense-door process and then in the mind-door process: .... Thus the javana cittas experiencing visible object arise at the eye-door and also at the mind-door. The same is the case with the javana cittas experiencing sound and the other sense objects.... The "Atthasåliní" states in the section on rúpa (II, Book II, Rúpa, the four Great Essentials, 304) that the cognition through the mind- door "falls into the stream of the fivefold cognition and goes along with it." The mind-door process which succeeds the sense-door process falls into its stream since cittas succeed one another very rapidly. The rúpa is experienced through the sense-door and then through the mind-door. When it is experienced through the mind-door it has only just fallen away. During other mind-door processes cittas can have as object a concept, such as the shape and form of something. The eye-door process, the ear-door process and the other sense-door processes are each followed by a mind-door process, but there are bhavanga-cittas [2] in between the processes. Now, at this moment, the different sense-doors are mixed up, they do not seem to be demarcated by a mind-door process. It seems that seeing does not fall away and that there can be hearing or the experience of tangible object at the same time. This shows us that processes of citta succeed one another very rapidly. The mind-door is hidden at this moment, it is hidden by the sense-doors. In order to remind us of what we do not know yet Khun Sujin said: "One door is bright, the other doors are dark." Only when there is seeing the world is bright. But now it seems that the world keeps on being bright. There seems to be seeing continuously. At this moment we know in theory that nåma is the element which experiences and that rúpa is the element which does not experience anything. However, when there is, for example, the experience of heat through the bodysense it is difficult to distinguish nåma from rúpa. There can be awareness of only one object at a time, either a nåma or a rúpa, and at that moment there is not "my body". When we think of "bodily sensations" we think of a "whole" and we are thoroughly mixing up nåma and rúpa. Then we shall continue to cling to a "self". --------- Footnotes: 1. Kusala cittas or akusala cittas arising in the sense-door process and in the mind-door process. The javana cittas of the arahat are kiriyacittas, “inoperative” cittas. 2. Lifecontinuum. Cittas which arise in between processes and which keep the continuity in life. They are different from the cittas arising in processes which experience objects impinging on the six doors. ******** Nina. #66188 From: "Joop" Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:11 pm Subject: Re: new member intro, jhana, vipassana jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hallo Joop, ... Hallo Nina, Although I know you are not inclined to debate, some remarks. No need to respond I think. N: As you remember right understanding comes first, is the leader. J: To me practicing the NEP is doing again and again each of the aspects of it, in this cyclic practice there hardly is a first one. Perhaps the most important one, the resulting one: the last one? J (yesterday): … 'the eradication of defilements'. In fact I don't like that expression: it is to negative, to agressive. Don't you have a more positive formulae? ------- N: to reach the end of dukkha. But I do not see it as aggressive to have less attachment, aversion and ignorance. J: The language is aggressive (to me). Some Theravada-expressions I really don't like, even if they have a wholesome intention. It should be better if there is harmony between the intention and the way it's expressed. 'Purification' for example has more metta build in it as 'aversion'. 'To reach the end of dukkha' is already better said. Metta Joop BTW: For Marjo see her site http://www.passaddhi.com #66189 From: Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:13 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Please Help me with Vipassana! jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... dear Nitesh, Its interesting, I wonder whether you have any written guide lines about these meditations. If so pl send it to me. may you bless with triple gems, dinesh ________________________________ I have recently returned from Vipassana Meditaion camp which was of 10 days. The camp was guided by Teacher S.N. Goenka lead by Asst. teacher from Nepal. Now after returning home, I have problem meditating. I would be very thankful if someone could help me. <....> #66190 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:38 pm Subject: Outstanding Faith ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: How are the Ability of Faith Quite Outstanding? With the development of the Ability of Faith, Enthusiasm arises, with the elimination of all Skeptical Doubt, Enthusiasm also arises, with the fading of the frustration inherent in all Skeptical Doubt, Enthusiasm arises, with the eradication of all mental obstructions linked with wrong view, Enthusiasm arises, with the removal of the gross mental obstructions, Enthusiasm arises, with the dying out of subtle mental obstructions, Enthusiasm arises, with extinction of all mental obstructions, Enthusiasm arises as a Thunderbolt!!! When via this hilarious & energetic Enthusiasm, gladness arises, then the Ability of Faith is outstanding as Faith due to Gladness... When through gladness, happiness arises, then the Ability of Faith is outstanding as Faith due to Happiness...When through happiness, tranquillity emerges, then the Ability of Faith is outstanding due to calmed & stilled Tranquillity... When tranquil, sweet pleasure arises, then the Faith Ability is quite outstanding as Faith due to Pleasure... When through pleasure illumination arises, then the Ability of Faith is outstanding as Faith due to Illumination... When through revealing illumination a sense of urgency arises, then this single Faith Ability is outstanding as Faith due to the acute & vivid Sense of Urgency... When sensing urgency one concentrates mind, then this Ability of Faith is outstanding as Faith due to Concentration... When one now thoroughly trains the mind thus concentrated, then this Ability of Faith is outstanding as Faith due to Effort. When one looks on with complete equanimity at mind thus wielded into solid focus, then the Faith Ability is outstanding as Faith due to Equanimity. When as a result of equanimity, mind is liberated from many kinds of mental obstructions, then the Faith Ability is outstanding as Faith due to Liberation. When mind is all liberated, this mentally unified state come to have a single function and taste, then the Faith Ability is outstanding as Faith due to emergence of Single Function & Taste. When mind is being cultivated and refined, it therefore turns away to what is superior, namely towards Nibbana, then the Faith Ability is outstanding as Faith due to Turning Away. When because of mind remains turned away, one is now possessed of the Path. When one, as a consequence, relinquishes both all mental obstructions and all clusters of clinging, then the Faith Ability is outstanding as Faith due to Relinquishment. When due to mental release, all the mental obstructions and the clusters of clinging therefore cease with no re-arising trace remaining, then the Ability of Faith is outstanding as Faith due to Ceasing... Source: Sariputta - The General of the Dhamma - The Canonical: Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga. IV. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Friendship is the Greatest Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon <...> #66191 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:16 am Subject: How to control your anger. nilovg Dear Nitesh, --------- K: Please suggest me how do you control your anger.... If there is someone that you cant get rid of and is contiously bothering you, how do you deal with it? How can you practice dhamma.. -------- Nina: It helps to know that the real cause of anger is within ourselves, not the events or other people are the cause of anger. We should know more about the conditions for dosa. I shall quote some parts of my Abh in Daily Life: Our attachment conditions dosa. The fact that you are bothered by someone else can be seen in the light of Dhamma: whatever unpleasant object through the senses we experience, the real cause is kamma done in the past. Then we shall be less inclined to blame others. We are more able to cope with difficult situations. When we see the disadvantages of anger, there are more conditions for kusala citta with metta. We can develop metta and extend it towards people we disliked at first. Our attitude can change. It may happen also that the other person's attitude changes. See, only the person who has attained the third stage of enlightenment has eradicated dosa completely. We still have conditions for anger. We should not expect what is impossible. We find the unpleasant feeling accompanying anger disagreeable and want to get rid of it. This is again motivated by attachment. When we have aversion about our aversion we make it worse. It seems to last and we keep on pondering over it. We can find out that this is not helpful. Nina. #66192 From: Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:18 am Subject: RE: [dsg] processes of cittas. jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... Thanks sarah for your reply with kind encourages. I got your site, and will be reading them, when ever time permits me. thx lot. sink in dhamma by any means (personal circumstances, what ever) is the greatest achievement & greatest discovery in the life I believe today. Now know my goal & and purpose of life.(way to nibbana) All dones and dreams in the past are merely endless worldly cravings, (thrushna) and unsatisfactory (dukka) Yes you are correct, doha was busy with asian games, and faces are glorious with the game festivel. I too was happy as being a volunteer at the games, my pleasure to send a photo of mine at the sports city. may you all blessed with triple gems ! see later. dinesh ________________________________ Thanks so much for your interesting intro. Of course, here in Asia, Doha (Qatar), is very much in the news at the moment because of the Asia Games. There must be a lot of flights to control at the moment. <....> #66193 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:25 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 611- Wholesome Deeds(h) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd There is still another way of generosity and this is the “base” which is the “sharing of one’s merit”. We cannot transfer to others the kusala we perform nor the result it will produce; each person receives the results of his own good deeds. However, we can by performing good deeds be a condition for other people to have kusala cittas as well, namely, when they rejoice in our good deeds. In this way we can “share merit” with others, even with beings in other planes of existence, provided they are in planes where they are able to receive this benefit. The commentary to the “Without the Walls” sutta (the “Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning”, paramatthajotikå, commentary to the “Minor Readings”, Khuddakapåìha) narrates that King Bimbisåra offered a meal to the Buddha and omitted to dedicate his gift to other beings. Ghosts who were his relatives in a former life had hoped for this in vain and because of disappointment and despair they made a horrible screeching in the night. The Buddha explained why the ghosts had screeched. Then King Bimbisåra made again an offering and did not omit to make the dedication, “Let this be for those relatives”. The ghosts benefited from his gifts immediately, they had kusala cittas and their suffering was allayed. Lotus-covered pools were generated for them in which they could bathe and drink, and they took on the colour of gold. Moreover, heavenly food, heavenly clothing and heavenly palaces were generated for them. This story illustrates that one can share one’s merit with beings who are departed. If one’s departed relatives are not able to receive this benefit other beings can. The sutta which has been explained in the commentary ends with the following words: * "Give gifts then for departed ones, Recalling what they used to do. No weeping nor yet sorrowing, Nor any kind of mourning, aids Departed Ones, whose kin remain (Unhelpful to them, acting) thus. But when this offering is given Well placed in the Community For them, then it can serve them long In future and at once as well. The true Idea1 for relatives has thus been shown, And how high honour to departed ones is done, And how the bhikkhus can be given strength as well, And how great merit can be stored away by you." * It is understandable that we are sad when we lose beloved ones, but if we know how to develop what is wholesome it can be a great consolation. Instead of sadness and aversion there can be kusala citta when we dedicate our good deeds to all those who are able to rejoice in it. It can become our custom to share wholesomeness with others. It is a Buddhist custom when a meal or robes are offered to the monks to pour water over one’s hands while the monks recite words of blessing, in order to give expression to one’s intention to dedicate this deed to other beings. The water is like a river which fills the ocean and even so a wholesome deed is so plentiful that it can be shared with others. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66194 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: paticcasamuppada sarahprocter... Dear Fabian, --- chandrafabian wrote: > Thank you, all this time I thought ordinary person only understand > paticcasamuppada superficially or intelectually, not penetratively, > but Sotapanna understand because they experienced the process > through experiencing because of their strong sati and sampajanna. > Are there any part of Abhidhamma which explain in detail the > process? There are 7 books, I don't know which. .... S: As Nina, mentioned, she and Larry are working through Ch XV11 of the Visuddhimagga and this is all on pariccasamuppada. I don't know what texts you have available in Jakarta, perhaps you could let us know. I also encourage you to join in their discussions and threads with any comments or questions, no matter how simple and no matter whether they are related to the aspect of paticcasamuppada under discussion at the time. You'll be doing them and others a favour by showing your interest and helping us all to consider these deep topic further. The most commonly used translation of the Vism in English is the one by Nanamoli, published by the BPS in Kandy, Sri Lanka. It will soon be available on-line at accesstoinsight. I also find B.Bodhi's translation of 'The Mahaanidana Sutta and Its Commentaries', available in a small booklet called 'The Great Discourse On Causation' very helpful, also published by the BPS, but possibly still out of print. Not expensive at all. Finally, in terms of Abhidhamma texts on paticcasamuppada, the most detailed and clearest elaboration can be found in the (translation of) Sammohavinodani, the commentary to the Vibhanga. There is a lot of overlap with the detail found in the Visuddhimagga. The PTS produce an exclellent translation, 'The Dispeller', but it's expensive. Perhaps you have a library at your centre? Finally, if you go to 'useful posts' in the files section and scroll down to 'Dependent Origination', you'll find may helpful past posts from the archives on various aspects of D.O. Metta, Sarah ========= #66195 From: "icarofranca" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:59 am Subject: Re: How to control your anger. icarofranca Dear Nina, >------------------------------------------------------------------- > When we see the disadvantages of anger, there are more conditions for > kusala citta with metta. We can develop metta and extend it towards > people we disliked at first. Our attitude can change. It may happen > also that the other person's attitude changes. >------------------------------------------------------------------- This specific remark can answer up the anger question aptly! Facing this single fact can make a real improvement on humankind's ethics perspective! Your words could be carved in stone, Nina! Mettaya, Ícaro P.S.: I've just received the CDs with Mme Sujin Colloquiae with DSG members, thanks Sarah's dilligence! Real good Dhamma stuff and a perfect Gift for Christmas! P.S.II: ah, have you made further inquiries about my First Krakatoa Explosion's questions ? Please, Nina, dont't forget it ! ^_^ #66196 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: How to control your anger. nilovg Dear Icaro, I passed it on to Lodewijk. I have too much work now. Nina. Op 16-dec-2006, om 11:59 heeft icarofranca het volgende geschreven: > P.S.II: ah, have you made further inquiries about my First Krakatoa > Explosion's questions ? Please, Nina, dont't forget it ! ^_^ #66197 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:04 am Subject: Re: new member intro buddhatrue Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > Hi James! > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > Oh my goodness, talk about mixing up terms! Vipassana, satipatthana, > > and the eightfold path are three different things, yet here you are > > saying they are the same thing. > >------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > Good! > could you elaborate such distinction with more detalis ? > Please, do it: it will be a benefit for all DSG members! > > Mettaya, > > Ã?caro > Well, I don't know how much it will benefit all the members, but I will offer the distinctions as I see them: Vipassana- vipassana specifically mean insight. It is to see directly (not intellectually) the three characteristics of conditioned reality. Most frequently it is used to describe a type of meditation called Vipassana Meditation. This meditation attempts to use momentary or access concentration to see the three characteristics of conditioned reality. The Buddha didn't teach this method of meditation and it therefore isn't effective for leading to liberation, IMO. Furthermore, it is not correct to say that the Buddha taught vipassana because no one can teach vipassana. Vipassana is the direct realization of the three characteristics and it is an individual matter. Satipatthana- satipatthana specifically means the four foundations of mindfulness. It is the contemplation of body, feeling, mind, and mind objects. The ultimate goal of satipatthana is vipassana and liberation; however, satipatthana isn't synonymous with vipassana. Satipatthana is the process and vipassana is the intended result. Noble Eightfold Path- the eightfold path is the last of the Four Noble Truths. It is the path of practice which leads to the ending of suffering. It is Right View, Right Thought, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration. Hope this helps to clarify. Metta, James #66198 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:40 am Subject: RE: [dsg] processes of cittas. sarahprocter... Hi Dinesh, --- jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... wrote: > Thanks sarah for your reply with kind encourages. > I got your site, and will be reading them, when ever time permits me. > thx lot. .... S: Good to have you here, Dinesh...any comments you make, however brief, encourage us all. .... > sink in dhamma by any means (personal circumstances, what ever) > is the greatest achievement & greatest discovery in the life I believe > today. ..... S: Yes, I agree...good comments! ... > Now know my goal & and purpose of life.(way to nibbana) > All dones and dreams in the past are merely endless worldly cravings, > (thrushna) and unsatisfactory (dukka) ... S: Yes, we live in madness most the time when our dreams are other than developing the understanding to really see these cravings for what they are:-). .... > > Yes you are correct, doha was busy with asian games, and faces are > glorious with the game festivel. > I too was happy as being a volunteer at the games, my pleasure to send a > photo of mine at the sports city. .... S: Sounds like it was extremely well organised and a great spectacle. I'll look forward to seeing your photo. Pls put it in the photo album of DSG (on left side on homepage). I hope other newcomers will also add their pics to the album (and any oldtimers still pic-shy). If you need any assistance, contact James for help! Metta, Sarah ======= #66199 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Christmas recepy. new member intro buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > We know each other. You are right. We both dislike debates. > My Christmas recepy: no matter what you do, it is so beneficial to > know the different cittats that motivate your writing, speech, > actions. We can learn so much from the cittas that arise. They are > conditioned by our accumulated inclinations. Think of the book the > roots of Good and Evil, you have read and Phil spoke about. > Do you have a recepy for me, but no debates! Perhaps you have some > good reminder. > Nina. Thank you for the very nice Christmas recipe. Yes, I have a Christmas recipe for you as well: "As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie." "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, companions, & colleagues, he can be expected to develop & pursue the noble eightfold path." May we all surround ourselves with admirable friends during this holiday season. And may we all be an admirable friend to ourselves as well. Metta, James