#66200 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali dictionary jonoabb Hi Bill Welcome to the list from me. bjones6513 wrote: > Hi Sarah, > In answer to your questions: I live in Naples, Florida and spend part of > the year in Thailand. We go back again for 3 months next October. > > I've practiced for about 15 years mainly in the Theravadan tradition and, > yes, I practice meditation, which seems to be a subject of controversy. > I'm very much interested in understanding the Abhidhamma which is > one reason I've subscribed to this group to begin with. > Very glad to see an interest in Abhidhamma. Actually, we do not emphasise Abhidhamma in particular here, but rather understanding the teachings as a whole (although, as I think you'll soon find, an understanding of Abhidhamma is central to that). I hope you find your time with us productive. Do you have any background in Abhidhamma so far? > ... > > One last thing: We're looking for a teacher in the Thai Forest tradition > for when we return. Can anyone recommend one? We were thinking > about going to Kongen (sp) to look up Long Por Boon Peng. Any > thoughts? > I'm not personally familiar with any of these teachers, although I've heard of several of them. Could you say a little about what you're looking for in a teacher, and what your criteria are? Jon #66201 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Matt matt roke wrote: >> Another thing we read about the sotapanna is that, in addition to not >> acting in breach of the precepts, he/she is also incapable of doing any act >> that could result in rebirth in a lower realm. Do you see this also as >> being attributable to the eradication of wrong view of self rather than, >> for example, the eradication of gross forms of lobha and dosa? Just trying >> to understand your reasoning about 'no wrong view of self therefore no >> intention to kill or harm'. >> > > I think the panna that eradicates wrong view of self also eradicates gross > forms of lobha and dosa. > Yes, this is my understanding too. > Sotapannas know that there is a moment of seeing that arises and falls away > and that that moment of seeing can’t be owned, it belongs to no one and it > is not self. And so it is for all dhamma moments. > I pretty much agree with this too, except I would say that while there is not always knowing (panna) for the sotapanna, there is never the wrong view that takes dhammas for self or as belonging to a self. > If dhamma moments don’t stay, can’t be held onto, can’t be owned and have no > self then certainly concepts can’t be owned and can’t be taken to be self or > other people. A sotapanna may have lobha following a sense experience, but > they can’t steal something they know is only dhammas that do not stay and > can’t be owned? In the case where dosa may follow a sense experience, how > could a sotapanna then kill dhammas that are falling away or a concept of a > person that is not real. > This is where you lose me, I'm afraid. If a person can have lobha for *an object* then they are capable of stealing that object if the lobha is gross enough. You are saying I think that the sotapanna always sees objects as only dhammas that do not stay. I'm not sure that's correct. I think they see objects as objects, but they do not take objects (or dhammas) for self. > It is this clear comprehension of dhamma moments for what they are and what > concepts are not that eradicates gross forms of lobha and dosa, which goes > hand in hand with the understanding of no self. > I agree that is is the same clear comprehension of dhammas that eradicates both wrong view of self and the grosser forms of lobha and dosa. Have you considered the possibility that it is the eradication of the grosser forms of lobha and dosa that accounts for the sotapanna's incapacity to kill or steal, to break the precepts, or to commit akusala kamma that can condition rebirth in the lower planes? Jon #66202 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas recepy. new member intro nilovg Hi James, this is lovely, thank you. Nina. #66203 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Matt) - In a message dated 12/16/06 7:53:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > >If dhamma moments don’t stay, can’t be held onto, can’t be owned and have > no > >self then certainly concepts can’t be owned and can’t be taken to be self > or > >other people. A sotapanna may have lobha following a sense experience, but > >they can’t steal something they know is only dhammas that do not stay and > >can’t be owned? In the case where dosa may follow a sense experience, how > >could a sotapanna then kill dhammas that are falling away or a concept of > a > >person that is not real. > > > > This is where you lose me, I'm afraid. If a person can have lobha for > *an object* then they are capable of stealing that object if the lobha > is gross enough. > > You are saying I think that the sotapanna always sees objects as only > dhammas that do not stay. I'm not sure that's correct. I think they see > objects as objects, but they do not take objects (or dhammas) for self. > ==================== If I may toss my 2 cents into the mix: I think an important element here is what exactly it means to not "take objects for self". First of all, I think that an "object", whether paramatthic or sankharically constructed, "not being self" means that it is impersonal, and it is insubstantial in the sense of having no core of self-existence. Now, if, indeed, there were no sense in the slightest of anything being personal or substantial, then there would be neither craving nor aversion for it nor attachment to it. And that would be exactly the situation for the arahant. An arahant would not "take objects for self" in the deepest way, lacking any sense of self in anything. However, a stream entrant *does* have atta-sense. S/he "merely" lacks atta-view, and only fails to "take objects for self" in that more superficial way. The difference between atta-view and atta-sense is a radical one. To give an analogy, not so "nice" perhaps, but possibly helpful: A lustful man man looks at a full-color, sexually-explicit photograph, and though he knows without question that it is only a representation he is looking at and not a real woman, nonetheless, despite his correct view, he finds himself aroused. Contrast this with the complete non-reaction of a man who is fully asexual (for some biological or psychological reason). The stream entrant is like the former, and the arahant like the latter. Matt's position, it seems to me, is that emotion has cognitive basis, and I think that is correct. And the craving, aversion and attachment of a sotapanna is lessened compared to that of his/her prior unawakened state, but akusala states and actions are not gone entirely in a stream entrant just on the basis of the degree of right view attained at that stage, because the ignorant cognitive *sensing* of a self in persons and phenomena yet remains. With metta, Howard #66204 From: "jcmendoza1000" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:47 am Subject: permission from parents jcmendoza1000 To Sarah: Is it true that you've to have the permission of your parents before you can ordain? What if you're adopted? -JC #66205 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:38 am Subject: Re: processes of cittas! Well, in that case I'll en scottduncan2 Dear Sarah and Howard, S: "(Howard, I would point out in this chapter of Ab.Sangaha and its commentary, Ch3, Compendium of functions, seeing, hearing and so on are described in terms of being the functions (kicca) of cittas.)" H: "Oh! In that case I'll entirely revise my thinking about agency terminology!! LOLOL!" Good, Howard, finally! See, Sarah? But help me understand this: In the Anguttara Nikaaya, Chakkanipata, Devatavaggo, there is the Attakaariisutta.m: "Then a certain Brahmin approached the Blessed One, exchanged friendly greetings, sat on a side, and said: 'Good Gotama I am of this view and say: Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' 'Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say 'Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others. 'Brahmin, is there occasion for making effort?' 'Yes, good one.' 'Brahmin when there is an occasion for making effort, when there is a sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and otherness. Brahmin, when there is the going forth...re...when there is the going forward...re...when there is firmness...re...when there is uprightness...re...when there is endurance...re...when there is a sentient being enduring, this is the being doing and the otherness...'" The Paali is difficult. For the phrase: "Brahmin, when there is the occasion for making effort, when there is a sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and otherness" it is: "Ya.m kho, braahmana, aarabbadhaatuya sati aarabhavanto sattaa pa~n~nayanti, aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro." I just know that there must be a better way to translate this, especially, "this is the being doing and otherness" - "aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro". I think this bears on 'agency terminology'. Any help? Paali scholars? Sincerely, Scott. #66206 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:03 am Subject: Re: Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling nidive Hi Howard, > akusala states and actions are not gone entirely in a stream entrant > just on the basis of the degree of right view attained at that > stage, because the ignorant cognitive *sensing* of a self in persons > and phenomena yet remains. That ignorant cognitive *sensing* of a self remains even for an anagami. It is a manifestation of the conceit "I Am". http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.089.than.html Swee Boon #66207 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas! Well, in that case I'll en upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Sarah) - In a message dated 12/16/06 10:43:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Sarah and Howard, > > S: "(Howard, I would point out in this chapter of Ab.Sangaha and its > commentary, Ch3, Compendium of functions, seeing, hearing and so on > are described in terms of being the functions (kicca) of cittas.)" > > H: "Oh! In that case I'll entirely revise my thinking about agency > terminology!! LOLOL!" > > Good, Howard, finally! See, Sarah? ------------------------------------- Howard: I presume, Scott, that you have caught my irony and are playing along. :-) ------------------------------------- > > But help me understand this: > > In the Anguttara Nikaaya, Chakkanipata, Devatavaggo, there is the > Attakaariisutta.m: > > "Then a certain Brahmin approached the Blessed One, exchanged friendly > greetings, sat on a side, and said: > > 'Good Gotama I am of this view and say: Nothing is done by the self, > nothing is done by others.' > > 'Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone > by himself approaching and receding say 'Nothing is done by the self, > nothing is done by others. > > 'Brahmin, is there occasion for making effort?' > > 'Yes, good one.' > > 'Brahmin when there is an occasion for making effort, when there is a > sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and otherness. > Brahmin, when there is the going forth...re...when there is the going > forward...re...when there is firmness...re...when there is > uprightness...re...when there is endurance...re...when there is a > sentient being enduring, this is the being doing and the otherness...'" > > The Paali is difficult. For the phrase: > > "Brahmin, when there is the occasion for making effort, when there is > a sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and otherness" > > it is: > > "Ya.m kho, braahmana, aarabbadhaatuya sati aarabhavanto sattaa > pa~n~nayanti, aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro." > > I just know that there must be a better way to translate this, > especially, "this is the being doing and otherness" - "aya.m > sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro". > > I think this bears on 'agency terminology'. Any help? Paali scholars? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > ======================= Some comments on what you quoted, Scott: 1) Agency terminology is unavoidable, but should be minimized and, when used, always should be "seen through" as just a manner of speaking. 2) The Buddha responded varyingly to various people on various occasions, depending on his (deep) knowledge of the person's understanding at the moment. For one in whom a strong substantialist inclination is in effect, the Buddha answered in a way that emphasized emptiness, insubstantiality, and impersonality. For one in whom a nihilist perspective is predominant, as in this case, the Buddha spoke of beings, agents, and personal effort. The Buddha led people to the middle-way reality as appropriate, and what is appropriate on one occasion for one person may not be so for another person or for the same person n a different occasion. With metta, Howard #66208 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 12/16/06 11:09:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >akusala states and actions are not gone entirely in a stream entrant > >just on the basis of the degree of right view attained at that > >stage, because the ignorant cognitive *sensing* of a self in persons > >and phenomena yet remains. > > That ignorant cognitive *sensing* of a self remains even for an > anagami. It is a manifestation of the conceit "I Am". > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.089.than.html > > Swee Boon > ========================== Exactly right, Swee Boon. That "scent" of "I am" mentioned in this sutta is exactly what I mean by atta-sense. With metta, Howard #66209 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] More on how to control your anger! nilovg Dear Nitesh and all, When reading the Perfection of Energy, by KH Sujin, I thought of you when coming upon a text on viriya, energy or courage. Kusala viriya is an important support for all kinds of kusala. We read: < In daily life everybody has come into contact with undesirable objects: for some people these are extremely undesirable, whereas for others these are only slightly so. This may happen when one meets another person on account of whom one is disturbed or feels displeasure. If sati-sampajañña (sati and paññå) does not arise, one does not know that there is akusala dhamma at such a moment and hence kusala viriya has no opportunity to arise and akusala viriya arises instead. There are bound to be conditions for desire and attachment so that akusala continues to arise. However, if someone has listened to the Dhamma and he develops satipaììhåna, sati-sampajañña can arise and be aware of akusala when he is irritated or displeased. We should consider more deeply the meaning of sati-sampajañña. When akusala dhamma arises, sati- sampajañña may consider the Dhamma and realize the disadvantage of the continuation of akusala. At that moment, it may be known that it is not proper to be irritated in whatever respect, be it on account of the action or speech of someone else, or be it because we have noticed something wrong. When, for example, akusala citta with anger arises and sati-sampajaññå can be aware of its characteristic, we can see whether there is effort for giving up anger; if one continues being angry it means that akusala viriya is still strong. When kusala viriya has been further developed and awareness can arise, there are conditions for the decrease of displeasure and for mettå. Thus, instead of anger which is an impure dhamma there can immediately be a change to kusala dhamma, dhamma which is pure. When dosa arises, we have displeasure, but sati sampajañña can arise and be aware of its characteristic and then we can see the benefit of sati-sampajañña. If someone has listened to the Dhamma and he is not inert but immediately gives up akusala, kusala viriya performs its function at that moment. When a certain type of akusala arises and it is followed by sati- sampajañña, kusala viriya can perform its task of refraining from anger. This kind of viriya is different from thinking that one should refrain from anger. It arises at the moment of sati- sampajañña, when energy or effort refrains from anger, and it is known that mettå is the opposite of anger. This is effort to forgive, effort for mettå. At such a moment we can remember that everybody, including ourselves, makes mistakes. Therefore, we should not have anger or displeasure on account of someone else or of dhammas which arise and then fall away. However, feeling and remembrance, saññå, are conditions for being slow and inert in letting go of one’s thoughts about circumstances and events and in that case akusala dhammas have the opportunity to arise.> N: We feel so strongly about someone else's behaviour and this causes us to keep on remembering it, we cannot let go of it. When sati and pa~n~naa see the disadvantage of akusala, there are more conditions for metta. There can be a change from akusala to kusala. Nina. #66210 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas! Well, in that case I'll en scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Howard: "I presume, Scott, that you have caught my irony and are playing along. :-)" Of course. H: "1) Agency terminology is unavoidable, but should be minimized and, when used, always should be "seen through" as just a manner of speaking." Yeah, I'm still wanting to study the text and hear from others what the Attakaariisutta.m is actually saying. H: "2) The Buddha responded varyingly to various people on various occasions, depending on his (deep) knowledge of the person's understanding at the moment...For one in whom a nihilist perspective is predominant, as in this case, the Buddha spoke of beings, agents, and personal effort." Okay, this much is clear. I think the listener's momentary understanding is one thing and Dhamma another. H: "The Buddha led people to the middle-way reality as appropriate, and what is appropriate on one occasion for one person may not be so for another person or for the same person in a different occasion." This is oft-stated - the way the Buddha 'led people to the middle-way'. Sometimes this argument seems to me to amount to equivocating, I think, when it is brought to bear in discussions on specific points of Dhamma. The Dhamma is what it is. Its as if one tries, by invoking this tendency of a Buddha, to somehow justify what doesn't, I think, devolve from this - that there is, therefore, more than one way to see something. Just me being rigid, I suppose, Howard. That's why I'll be interested to get close to what the sutta is saying. Sincerely, Scott. #66211 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:36 am Subject: Questioning Your Response Re: [dsg] More on how to control your anger! upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Nitesh, and all) - In the following, I have put certain words entirely in upper case for emphasis, and added numbers //n//, for reference purposes. My post, while written on a basis of tremendous respect and personal fondeness for you, is, yet, very frank. It is written in a no-holds-barred fashion in hopes of eliciting a clear and frank reply on your part, Nina. You are enormously to be admired, Nina, for your presentation of pariyatti and for your remsrkable, unwavering efforts. I truly do admire you. But I have grave reservations with regard to to Khun Sujin's and your presentation of what what constitutes patipatti, and it is that which I address here. In a message dated 12/16/06 11:47:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > objects: for some people these are extremely undesirable, whereas for > others these are only slightly so. This may happen when one meets > another person on account of whom one is disturbed or feels > displeasure. If sati-sampajañña (sati and paññå) does not arise, one > does not know that there is akusala dhamma at such a moment and hence > kusala viriya has no opportunity to arise and akusala viriya arises > instead. There are bound to be conditions for desire and attachment > so that akusala continues to arise. > However, if someone has //1// LISTENED to the Dhamma and he develops > satipaììhÃ¥na, sati-sampajañña can arise and be aware of akusala when > he is irritated or displeased. We //2/ SHOULD consider more deeply the > meaning of sati-sampajañña. When akusala dhamma arises, sati- > sampajañña may consider the Dhamma and realize the disadvantage of > the continuation of akusala. At that moment, it may be known that it > is not proper to be irritated in whatever respect, be it on account > of the action or speech of someone else, or be it because we have > noticed something wrong. When, for example, akusala citta with anger > arises and sati-sampajaññå can be aware of its characteristic, we //3// can > > see whether there is effort for giving up anger; if one continues > being angry it means that akusala viriya is still strong. When kusala > viriya has been further developed and awareness can arise, there are > conditions for the decrease of displeasure and for mettÃ¥. Thus, > instead of anger which is an impure dhamma there can immediately be a > change to kusala dhamma, dhamma which is pure. > When dosa arises, we have displeasure, but sati sampajañña can arise > and be aware of its characteristic and then we can see the benefit of > sati-sampajañña. If someone has //4/ LISTENED to the Dhamma and he is not > inert but immediately //5/ GIVES UP akusala, kusala viriya performs its > function at that moment. > > When a certain type of akusala arises and it is followed by //6// sati- > sampajañña, kusala viriya can perform its task of refraining from > anger. This kind of viriya is different from thinking that one should > refrain from anger. It arises at the moment of sati- sampajañña, when > energy or effort refrains from anger, and it is known that mettÃ¥ is > the opposite of anger. This is effort to forgive, effort for mettÃ¥. > At such a moment we can remember that everybody, including ourselves, > makes mistakes. //7// Therefore, we should not have anger or displeasure on > > account of someone else or of dhammas which arise and then fall away. > However, feeling and remembrance, saññå, are conditions for being > slow and inert in letting go of one’s thoughts about circumstances > and events and in that case akusala dhammas have the opportunity to > arise.> > > ------------------------------------------- Howard: In (1) and (4) you speak of listening to the Dhamma. You never seem to give any condition other than that (intentional) activity of listening as a basis for cultivating sati-sampajañña, not even intentionally paying attention to what is happening in the moment and avoiding the loss of "presentness" (i.e.avoiding getting lost in thought or sloth and torpor). To me, that restriction makes Dhamma practice a one-trick pony. Of course, sometimes you do add on considering or contemplating meaning, as in (2), but that just consists of thinking. That seems to be about it. Thus it seems to me that you are saying that the Buddhadhamma consists of the Buddha's report on what he found to be the nature of things plus the instruction to study that report and think about it. That is not what the Buddhadhamma is understood to be anywhere else, as far as I know, and as far as I'm concerned reading the Sutta Pitaka makes it crystal clear that that is not the Dhamma. That perspective turns the Dhamma into a species of gnani (contemplative) yoga, IMO. In (3) you point out that if mindfulness and wisdom have developed, one can then see whether or not energy is present for giving up anger. Again, why *should* the wisdom have arisen? Only from listening and contemplating? Moreover, what if one *does* see that the requisite viriya is in place? Then what? Should not that knowing be taken advantage by willfully cutting off akusala, since such action is possible at that time? The Buddha urged such cutting off as one of the four right endeavors. Why bother urging it? And how is one to follow that instruction? Knowing alone isn't sufficient. Action is required. In (6), you speak of sati-sampajañña arising subsequent to an akusala state. Why should it arise? What conditions it? Only having previously listened and considered? In (7), you basically say that anger may or may not arise depending on prior kusala or akusala conditions, which, of course, is quite true. But why should prior kusala conditions have arisen, and why should akusala conditions fail to have arisen? Do you maintain that the Buddha didn't urge any conventional volitional actions accept for studying and thinking about his report of "facts on the ground"? The Buddha provided a program of activities that involve doing no harm, doing good, and purifying the mind. It was a detailed program that consisted of far more than studying and considering the Buddha's reporting of the way things are. In my opinion, we may listen to and consider the four noble truths, the tilakkhana, and dependent origination from now forward without ever making any significant progress toward awakening, and the Buddha will have largely wasted the last 45 years of his final lifetime. With metta, Howard P.S. This post was written without "pulling any punches", because I am hoping that the issues that I have raised will be addressed in a completely up-front way, making it precisely clear where you and Khun Sujin stand. If your view of the Dhamma is not just that of a report of the facts plus the instruction to study the report, I hope that you will make very clear how it differs from that. #66212 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:12 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 153. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Kindred Sayings (V, Mahå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Streamwinning, chapter VI, §4, Visiting the sick) that while the Buddha was staying among the Sakyans at Kapilavatthu, in Banyan Park, Mahånåma asked him how a wise lay-follower who is sick should be admonished by another wise lay-follower. The Buddha said: A wise lay-disciple, Mahånåma, who is sick... should be admonished by another wise lay-disciple with the four comfortable assurances, thus: ``Take comfort, dear sir, in your unwavering loyalty to the Buddha, saying: He is the Exalted One, Arahat, fully enlightened One... Teacher of devas and mankind, a Buddha, an Exalted One. Take comfort, dear sir, in your unwavering loyalty to the Dhamma, thus: Well proclaimed is the Dhamma... Take comfort, dear sir, in your unwavering loyalty to the Sangha... Take comfort, dear sir, in your possession of the virtues dear to the Ariyans...'' A wise lay- disciple, Mahånåma, who is sick... should be admonished by another wise lay-disciple with these four comfortable assurances. Then, supposing he has longing for his parents, he should thus be spoken to: If he say: ''I have longing for my parents'', the other should reply: ``But, my dear sir, you are subject to death. Whether you feel longing for your parents or not, you will have to die. It were just as well for you to abandon the longing you have for your parents.'' If he should say: ``That longing for my parents is now abandoned,'' the other should reply: ``Yet, my dear sir, you still have longing for your children. As you must die in any case, it were just as well for you to abandon that longing for your children.'' If he should say: ``That longing for my children is now abandoned,'' the other should reply: ``Yet, my dear sir, you still have longing for the five human pleasures of sense.'' Then, if he say, ``That longing for the five human pleasures of sense is now abandoned,'' the other should reply: ``My friend, the heavenly delights are more excellent than the five human pleasures of sense. It were well for you, worthy sir, to remove your thoughts from them and fix them upon the Four Deva Kings.'' Suppose the sick man say, ``My thoughts are removed from human pleasures of sense and fixed upon the Four Deva Kings,'' then let the other say: ``More excellent than the Four Deva Kings and more choice are the Suite of the Thirty-three... the Yama Devas, the Devas of Delight, the Creative Devas... the Devas who rejoice in the work of other devas... the latter are more excellent and choice than the former... so it were better for you to fix your thoughts on the Brahma World.'' Then if the sick man's thoughts are so fixed, let the other say: ``My friend, even the Brahma World is impermanent, not lasting, prisoned in a person. Well for you, friend, if you raise your mind above the Brahma World and fix it on cessation from the person pack. And if the sick man say he has done so, then, Mahånåma, I declare that there is no difference between the lay-disciple who thus avers and the monk whose heart is freed from the åsavas, that is, between the release of the one and the release of the other. ***** Nina. #66213 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:26 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana III, 6 nilovg Dear friends, In the beginning the understanding of nåma and rúpa is bound to be vague and there may be awareness of only a few nåmas and rúpas. Objects appear through six doors, and it depends on the accumulations of the individual of which object there is awareness. Even when the first stage of vipassanå ñå.na, insight knowledge, has been reached there may not be clear understanding of many kinds of realities. However, when that stage arises there is no more doubt about the characteristic of nåma and about the characteristic of rúpa, both of which at those moments appear, one at a time, through the mind-door. Then there is direct understanding of nåma and rúpa. After this stage has been reached one must continue to be mindful and develop understanding of all kinds of realities which appear through the six doors. Khun Sujin said: “The characteristic of nåma can only clearly appear when it is known what the mind-door is. At the moment of the first vipassanå ñåna paññå knows the characteristic of nåma and the characteristic of rúpa. Rúpa is not different from rúpa which usually appears through the sense-door. Visible object appears through the mind-door just as naturally as when we see now, but at that moment it is not experienced through the eye-door but through the mind-door.” During a trip in the North of Thailand Alan Driver asked Khun Sujin some questions about the first stage of insight, vipassanå ñåùa, and I shall quote the conversation: Alan: “Does visible object appear to be the same through the mind- door as through the eye-door, or does it appear differently at the moment of the first vipassanå ñåna?” Khun Sujin: “It is the same, exactly the same”. Alan: “In that case how can one know the difference between seeing and the experience of visible object through the mind-door?” Khun Sujin: “Now there are sense-door processes, and mind-door processes do not appear. When the mind-door process appears in the case of vipassanå ñåna it is different from just now. “ Khun Sujin explained that at this moment sound is experienced through the ear-door and after that through the mind-door, but that we do not realize that sound is also experienced through the mind-door. We do not know the function of the mind-door process of cittas in which process the sound is also “heard”. Cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another extremely rapidly. Also in the case of the other sense objects an object is experienced through the relevant sense-door and then through the mind-door. We are confused with regard to the different doorways, it seems that we can see and hear at the same time; we do not notice that there are different sense- door processes and that each sense-door process is followed by a mind- door process. ******** Nina. #66214 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:39 am Subject: Re: Questioning Your Response Re: [dsg] More on how to control your anger! nilovg Hi Howard, I really appreciate your kind post and you address it in a very nice way. I like to quietly contemplate it, it gives me an oportunity to go more deeply into the text. Especially this quoted text from Kh Sujin touched me, I found it so true, so to the point and I am happy if I can convey it that way also to others, perhaps by elaborating more on it. I take my time. I like it when people are frank. I wanted to say that it was not so nice of me to say 'objection' to you re little agents. Without more explanations. When time permits I shall think of ways to address this subject better. We look at the series 'Law and Order' and there it is said: objection, and sustained. It plays in New York and causes nostalgia. Nina. Op 16-dec-2006, om 19:36 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My post, while written on a basis of tremendous respect and personal > fondeness for you, is, yet, very frank. #66215 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: processes of cittas! Well, in that case I'll en nilovg Dear Scott; this is a being doing (himself) and another one doing. para is other. Another person. PTS translates as: self-agency, other-agency. We can speak of oneself doing something and another doing something, but we do not need to have any misunderstanding, do we? My Thai co is very interesting, it states that the whole sutta is about effort. When time permits I may give more details. Nina. Op 16-dec-2006, om 16:38 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > a sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and otherness" > > it is: > > "Ya.m kho, braahmana, aarabbadhaatuya sati aarabhavanto sattaa > pa~n~nayanti, aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro." > > I just know that there must be a better way to translate this, > especially, "this is the being doing and otherness" - "aya.m > sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro". > > I think this bears on 'agency terminology'. #66216 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:14 am Subject: Re: Questioning Your Response Re: [dsg] More on how to control your anger! upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/16/06 2:50:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I really appreciate your kind post and you address it in a very nice > way. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Nina. You always accept my posts in a spirit that is most kind and most pleasing to me. :-) -------------------------------------- I like to quietly contemplate it, it gives me an oportunity to > > go more deeply into the text. Especially this quoted text from Kh > Sujin touched me, I found it so true, so to the point and I am happy > if I can convey it that way also to others, perhaps by elaborating > more on it. I take my time. I like it when people are frank. ---------------------------------------- Howard: So do I. Frankness, along with good, kind intention, is the best. -------------------------------------- > > I wanted to say that it was not so nice of me to say 'objection' to > you re little agents. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I had no objection to your words. ------------------------------------ Without more explanations. When time permits I > > shall think of ways to address this subject better. > We look at the series 'Law and Order' and there it is said: > objection, and sustained. It plays in New York and causes nostalgia. ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, we watch that show, and also a spin-off of it, 'Law and Order: Special Victims Unit'. They are well done for that genre. ------------------------------------ > Nina. ================ With metta, Howard #66217 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: new member intro, jhana, vipassana nilovg Hallo Joop, You find right concentration very important. I will just give you some of my musings about this subject. I was reading a Sutta, Kindred S. V, Kindred Sayings on the Way, §5, To what purpose. Other wanderers asked the monks to what purpose the holy life is lived under Gotama the recluse. The monks answered that it was for the full understanding of dukkha. The Buddha said: 'Truly, monks, thus questioned and thus replying, you do state my views... in stating that it is for the full understanding of dukkha that the holy life is lived under my rule. But if, monks, the wanderers holding other views should thus question you:'But, friends, is there any way, is there any practice for the full understanding of this dukkha?'- thus questioned, monks, thus should you reply to those wanderers of other views: 'Friends, there is indeed a Way, there is indeed a practice for the full understanding of this dukkha.' And what, monks, is that Way, what that practice? It is this very Ariyan eightfold way; to wit, right view, and the rest...' We hear the word dukkha so often, but it is deep and hard to penetrate the full meaning. We read in the K.S. V, Ch II, Setting Rolling of the Wheel of Dhamma that the Buddha explained about all the aspects of dukkha. The he said: The five khandhas are nothing else but citta, cetasika and rupa. They are impermanent and thus no refuge, they are dukkha. We can say this, repeat this, think about this, but that is not the direct understanding of dukkha. Dukkha is not in a vacuum, it is dukkha *of* a reality, and to be more precise: dukkha of a reality appearing right at this moment. The nature of dukkha of seeing, feeling, happiness, anger appearing now. I say this, but this does not mean that I realize this. I know that it is a lifelong process, and it takes more than that. What I want to say: mindfulness and understanding are essential factors. Also the other factors support and I think they develop together. Right thinking asists pa~n~naa, it hits the object that appears so that pa~n~naa can understand it. Concentration fousses on the object that appears, only one object at a time, so that pa~n~naa can know it. Energy or effort is very important, it is called the attendant of pa~n~naa. I read in Kh Sujin's Perfection of Energy about not separating samatha and vipassana: < We can notice ourselves whether we have viriya which only begins to develop and is still weak, or whether it is already right effort: the effort which avoids akusala not yet arisen, overcomes akusala already arisen, the effort to cause the arising of kusala which has not yet arisen. The kusala dhamma which has not yet arisen refers to samatha and vipassanå and to the path, magga, the fruition, phala, and nibbåna . As to the words samatha and vipassanå in this context, these refer to satipaììhåna. Samatha and vipassanå are developed together and reach completion together by the four Applications of Mindfulness, they should not be separated from each other. Effort is necessary to maintain the kusala dhammas which have arisen, not to let them decline, to further develop them, to cause them to increase and reach completion. > < For someone who develops satipaììhåna in daily life so that paññå knows more thoroughly the characteristics of realities, the right conditions are present that lead to the result, namely, the realization of the four noble Truths. For him, the result will naturally occur and this is not difficult. However, the conditions leading to such a result are difficult to develop: one should gradually consider and study with awareness the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, as they appear through the sense-doors and the mind- door. This is a very gradual process, and viriya, energy, is necessary to be aware again and again, to be aware very often, since this is the only way for paññå to be able to penetrate the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. At this very moment realities are arising and falling away, but if we do not study with awareness and begin to understand the characteristics of nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas, it will not be possible to realize their arising and falling away. The cause which can bring such a result has to be developed time and again, life after life.> Here are a few thoughts. Nina. Op 15-dec-2006, om 22:11 heeft Joop het volgende geschreven: > J: To me practicing the NEP is doing again and again each of the > aspects of it, in this cyclic practice there hardly is a first one. > Perhaps the most important one, the resulting one: the last one? #66218 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:44 pm Subject: Re: processes of cittas! Well, in that case I'll en scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for: N: "...this is a being doing...and another one doing." That is a clearer way of translating 'aya.m sattana.m attakaaro ayam parakaaro'. N: "PTS translates as: self-agency, other-agency. We can speak of oneself doing something and another doing something, but we do not need to have any misunderstanding, do we?" No. No need to misunderstand. I see where 'karoti' has the meanings 'to form, to build, to weave'. 'Kara' has the sense 'producing, causing, forming, making, doing'. Is there in some way a more subtle assertion related to becoming? To the way wrong effort contributes to the weaving of being? 'Ya.m kho, braahmana, aarabbadhaatuya sati aarabhavanto sattaa pa~n~nayanti,...' The compounds 'aarabbadhaatuya' and 'aarabhavanto' are still a bit difficult for me. 'Aarabbha' (or 'aarambha') imply 'attempt, effort, inception of energy'. I can sort of see how 'bhavanto' modifies but not 'dhaatuu'. Is it perhaps 'dhaatuka' - 'having the nature, by nature, affected with'? As in, 'having the nature of being effort or incipient energy'? And does 'sati' mean some form of remembrance as part of the 'process'? I'll look forward to the Thai commentary. Please take your time. Sincerely, Scott. #66219 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Please Help me with Vipassana! jonoabb Hi Nitesh kanchaa wrote: > Hello Everyone! > > I have recently returned from Vipassana Meditaion camp which was of > 10 days. The camp was guided by Teacher S.N. Goenka lead by Asst. > teacher from Nepal. Now after returning home, I have problem > meditating. I would be very thankful if someone could help me. > > I practice twice daily, an hour in the morning and evening. While I > start my mediation, I practice Ana Pana for about 5 to 10 mins, then > practice Vipassana and end with Metta. But when I meditate, I have > my brain working simultaneously. My brain usually plans about > future, sometime fantasize, analyze and I have less concentration in > my meditation. My Vipassana meditation goes in very slow process due > to lack of concentration. I have stopped practicing Metta as I am > disturbed. > > Someone suggestion regarding the matter would be highly appreciated. > I am not a meditator, but I think that meditators and non-meditators alike can fall into the trap of trying to force the development of insight or other kusala qualities. Any degree of concern about 'how my practice is going' is likely to be aksuala of various kinds coming to the fore. It is not commonly recognised or acknowledged, but in the Satipatthana Sutta, under the sections on mindfulness of consciousness and mindfulness of dhammas, it is clear that mindfulness can arise regardless of whether the present mind-state is (predominantly) kusala or akusala. So the mental conditions you mention (thinking of the future, fantasizing, less concentration, etc) need not be seen as obstacles to the development of the path. Most people who follow a particular 'practice' hold the view, perhaps unconsciously, that insight can be developed only when practising the method they've been taught. Would that be so in your case, do you think? Jon #66220 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:22 pm Subject: elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka ken_aitch Hi Sarah, Every time I sit down to answer this post I decide to wait until I've got a better grasp of what you are trying to tell me. However, that time has still not come. When I read the following quote, for example, I may as well be Homer Simpson: ------ S: Here's a quote for Howard too (relating to other threads, I think) from Sammohavinodani transl (PTS), Classification of the Structure of Conditions, 688: "Firstly, in one who is reborn by means of either profitable result or unprofitable result, according as is faculties mature, [so] the five profitable resultant eye- [etc.] consciousnesses occur, accomplishing the functions of seeing - [etc.], on being instigated [respectively] by a desirable or desirable-neutral visible datum, etc, as objects come into the focus of the eye, etc, and having eye-sensitivity (cakkhu pasaada) as their [material] support. Likewise the five unprofitable resultant [consciousnesses]; the only difference being this, that the visible data, etc. as object for these are undesirable or undesirable-neutral...." ---- Various things have been happening here lately: we have had broadband connected (at last!) with lots of technical difficulties including a possible virus, and, also, I am relearning computer programming (which was a hobby of mine many years ago). For whatever reason, my thinking is too fuzzy to even attempt a reply now. Your final remark makes me feel better: --------------- S2: I expect everyone is completely cross-eyed by now, but no good blaming the visible object or the glasses....it's the kamma:-) -------------- ;-) Ken H #66221 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Howard (and Matt) Thanks for coming in on this thread. upasaka@... wrote: >> This is where you lose me, I'm afraid. If a person can have lobha for >> *an object* then they are capable of stealing that object if the lobha >> is gross enough. >> >> You are saying I think that the sotapanna always sees objects as only >> dhammas that do not stay. I'm not sure that's correct. I think they see >> objects as objects, but they do not take objects (or dhammas) for self. >> > ==================== > If I may toss my 2 cents into the mix: I think an important element > here is what exactly it means to not "take objects for self". > First of all, I think that an "object", whether paramatthic or > sankharically constructed, "not being self" means that it is impersonal, and it is > insubstantial in the sense of having no core of self-existence. Now, if, indeed, > there were no sense in the slightest of anything being personal or > substantial, then there would be neither craving nor aversion for it nor attachment to > it. And that would be exactly the situation for the arahant. An arahant would > not "take objects for self" in the deepest way, lacking any sense of self in > anything. However, a stream entrant *does* have atta-sense. S/he "merely" lacks > atta-view, and only fails to "take objects for self" in that more superficial > way. The difference between atta-view and atta-sense is a radical one. > I agree in general terms with the distinction you are making here. The stream entrant has eradicated the particular form of akusala that is called 'wrong view', so that dhammas are no longer taken for 'self'. However, he/she has not eradicated attachment to sense-objects (or dosa arising on account of that attachment), which is eradicated by the anagami, nor the conceit 'I am', which is eradicated by the arahant. Nor has he/she fully penetrated the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta which are common to all dhammas. > ... > Matt's position, it seems to me, is that emotion has cognitive basis, > and I think that is correct. And the craving, aversion and attachment of a > sotapanna is lessened compared to that of his/her prior unawakened state, but > akusala states and actions are not gone entirely in a stream entrant just on the > basis of the degree of right view attained at that stage, because the ignorant > cognitive *sensing* of a self in persons and phenomena yet remains. > I'm sure Matt would agree that the sotapanna has not eradicated conceit, but I'll have to leave it to him to comment on the rest (I'm not sure what you have in mind when you say that emotion has a cognitive basis). Jon #66222 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Please Help me with Vipassana! upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/16/06 5:18:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Most people who follow a particular 'practice' hold the view, perhaps > unconsciously, that insight can be developed only when practising the > method they've been taught. ======================== You're right! Practice is cultivation. The effects of cultivation can arise at any time, depending as you are wont to say, on conditions. With metta, Howard #66223 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to control your anger! jonoabb Hi Nitesh kanchaa wrote: > Dear All, > > Please suggest me how do you control your anger.... If there is > someone that you cant get rid of and is contiously bothering you, how > do you deal with it? How can you practice dhamma.. > You ask about practising dhamma while still having strong anger. I think if you look into the texts, you'll find that anger is no bar to the development of insight. Below are a couple of extracts from the Satipatthana Sutta (M.10) (the sutta I mentioned in a recent post to you). It's obvious from these that the person developing insight described there does so despite the continued arising of anger. So 'controlling anger' is not really a prerequisite to developing insight. Of course, we would all like to control our anger, but if we consider more deeply what the Buddha said we may come to the conclusion that this is a mission impossible for all but the already enlightened. Jon From 'The Way of Mindfulness -- The Satipatthana Sutta and Its Commentary' by Soma Thera <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 3. The Contemplation of Consciousness "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate; ... without hate, as without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; ... without ignorance, as without ignorance; ... "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness." 4. The Contemplation on Mental Objects "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in mental objects? (i) The Five Hindrances "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances? "Here, O bhikkhus, [1] when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.' He understands how the arising of the non-arisen sensuality comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen sensuality comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned sensuality comes to be. [2] When anger is present, he knows with understanding: 'I have anger,' or when anger is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no anger.' He understands how the arising of the non-arisen anger comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen anger comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned anger comes to be. ... "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the five hindrances." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> #66224 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka jonoabb Hi Howard I was puzzled by something you said in reply to a post of Larry's. upasaka@... wrote: >> Also, what is the tangible data of an itch if not earth element on the >> outside of the body door? >> > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > I don't know what exactly you mean by "tangible data", but to me an > itch is nothing more than a sensation, an experience, i.e., a particular sort of > content/object of consciousness. My perspective is that we are aware of a > huge variety of 6 sorts of sensations, and with these as basis we project an > external world of objects that is either the commonsense world of trees, bees, and > filagrees, or the physicist's world of strings and things, or the ancients' > and Abhidhammikas' world of earth, air, fire, and water. (Sorry I didn't end > with a rhyme, but the Abhidhamma isn't as poetic as Zen! ;-) > ----------------------------------- > I took Larry to be talking about one of the 6 sorts of sensations you mention, and suggesting that an itch is one of those projected objects you refer to. Tangible data at the body-door includes heat, hardness and pressure and these may be experienced as 'itch', in the same way as visible data at the eye-door may be experienced as 'tree'. But 'itch' itself is not one of those sensations or objects of consciousness. 'Itch' would be a concept like 'tree' is. Jon #66225 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Please Help me with Vipassana! jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 12/16/06 5:18:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > >> Most people who follow a particular 'practice' hold the view, perhaps >> unconsciously, that insight can be developed only when practising the >> method they've been taught. >> > ======================== > You're right! Practice is cultivation. The effects of cultivation can > arise at any time, depending as you are wont to say, on conditions. > Yes, or we could say that cultivation can arise at any time, depending on conditions. Think about that! ;-)) Jon #66226 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to control your anger! upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Nitesh, and Kanchaa) - In a message dated 12/16/06 6:13:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Nitesh > > kanchaa wrote: > >Dear All, > > > >Please suggest me how do you control your anger.... If there is > >someone that you cant get rid of and is contiously bothering you, how > >do you deal with it? How can you practice dhamma.. > > > > You ask about practising dhamma while still having strong anger. > > I think if you look into the texts, you'll find that anger is no bar to > the development of insight. Below are a couple of extracts from the > Satipatthana Sutta (M.10) (the sutta I mentioned in a recent post to > you). It's obvious from these that the person developing insight > described there does so despite the continued arising of anger. > > So 'controlling anger' is not really a prerequisite to developing > insight. Of course, we would all like to control our anger, but if we > consider more deeply what the Buddha said we may come to the conclusion > that this is a mission impossible for all but the already enlightened. > > Jon > > ====================== If I might add to this: The very process of being clearly aware of anger enables the "seeing" that it causes immediate pain in oneself, thereby displaying it's undesirability and leading to a natural dropping of it, just as as one would automatically drop a burning coal. Generally, the process of mindful examination of dhammas with an increasingly calm and clear mind lays bare the nature of dhammas and leads to distaste for the harmful ones and a natural, automatic relinquishment of them. With metta, Howard #66227 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:42 pm Subject: Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! bjones6513 Hi Nitesh, My advice to you, if you're having trouble calming your mind, then practice anapanasati longer. In the Goenka 10-day retreats they practice anapanasati for 3-4 days before one procedes to vedana, at the 7-week retreats anapanasati is practiced for 3 weeks. Also, the practice of metta can have a calming effect or some chanting in Pali. Both of these are done in the Goenka retreats. I would continue practicing what you practiced at the Goenka retreat. I thoroughly disagree that it's not what the Buddha taught. To quote from the Satipatthana Sutta, "Monks, this is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the surmounting of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of dukkha and discontent, for acquiring the true method, for the realization of Nibbana, namely the four satipatthanas." Goenka or U Ba Khin teach that one can develop the understanding of anicca through any of the six organs of sense. In practice, however the feeling by contact of touch is more tangible than other types of feelings. Someone beginning can come to an understanding of anicca more easily through bodily feelings. You can always study the other satipatthanas but I would become well established in the understanding of anicca through bodily feelings before moving on. You can always sign up for another Goenka retreat. Most of the people I know that have been to his retreats find them very rewarding. Maybe you can use one of the guided meditations for body sweeping that Pariyatti has available. I wouldn't listen to the people who say this is not what the Buddha taught. U Ba Khin and Goenka are teaching Satipatthana but focusing on Vedana as a starting point. The 4 Satis are what the Buddha taught. Good luck, Bill #66228 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:03 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pali dictionary bjones6513 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > >> > One last thing: We're looking for a teacher in the Thai Forest tradition > > for when we return. Can anyone recommend one? We were thinking > > about going to Kongen (sp) to look up Long Por Boon Peng. Any > > thoughts? > > > > I'm not personally familiar with any of these teachers, although I've > heard of several of them. Could you say a little about what you're > looking for in a teacher, and what your criteria are? > > Jon Hi Jon, In answer to your question about my understanding of the Abhidhamma, I've done quite alot of reading including A comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Abhidhamma Studies and several texts from the Pali Text Society. I'm interested in not only intellectually understanding these readings but also realizing them through a meditative practice. My criteria for a teacher at this moment is a meditation master in the Forest tradition, someone who has experienced the teachings of the Buddha. With metta, Bill > #66229 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:07 pm Subject: Questioning Your Response Re: [dsg] More on how to control your anger! buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and Nitesh, and all) - > P.S. This post was written without "pulling any punches", because I am hoping > that the issues that I have raised will be addressed in a completely up-front > way, making it precisely clear where you and Khun Sujin stand. If this post is your idea of not pulling any punches, I need to teach you a thing or two. You hit like a girl! LOL! (just kidding) ;-)). Metta, James #66230 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:34 pm Subject: Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! buddhatrue Hi Bill, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bjones6513" wrote: > I wouldn't listen to the people who say this is not what the Buddha > taught. U Ba Khin and Goenka are teaching Satipatthana but focusing on > Vedana as a starting point. The 4 Satis are what the Buddha taught. I am afraid that you are quite mistaken. I know it is difficult to dismiss S.N. Goenka (I practiced his method for 15 years…before I learned better), but he doesn't teach what the Buddha taught in regards to satipatthana. Goenka doesn't just begin with the contemplation of vedana (feeling), that is his entire practice!! However, satipatthana has four aspects to practice which Goenka doesn't address in their entirety: (1) The contemplation of the body (kāyanupassanā) consists of the following exercises: •mindfulness with regard to in-and-outbreathing (ānāpānasati), •minding the 4 postures (iriyāpatha), •mindfulness and clarity of consciousness (satisampajañña, q.v.), •reflection on the 32 parts of the body (s. kāyagatāsati and asubha), •analysis of the 4 physical elements (dhātuvavatthāna), •cemetery meditations (sīvathikā). (2) All feelings (vedanānupassanā) that arise in the meditator he clearly perceives, namely: •agreeable and disagreeable feeling of body and mind, •sensual and super-sensual feeling, •indifferent feeling . (3) He further clearly perceives and understands any state of consciousness or mind (cittānupassanā), whether it is •greedy or not, •hateful or not, •deluded or not, •cramped or distracted, •developed or undeveloped, •surpassable or unsurpassable, •concentrated or unconcentrated, •liberated or unliberated. (4) Concerning the mind-objects (dhammānupassanā), •he knows whether one of the five hindrances (nīvarana) is present in him or not, knows how it arises, how it is overcome, and how in future it does no more arise. •He knows the nature of each of the five groups (khandha), how they arise, and how they are dissolved. •He knows the 12 bases of all mental activity (āyatana): the eye and the visual object, the ear and the audible object, .. mind and mind- object, •he knows the fetters (samyojana) based on them, knows how they arise, how they are overcome, and how in future they do no more arise. •He knows whether one of the seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga, q.v.) is present in him or not, knows how it arises, and how it comes to full development. •Each of the Four Noble Truths (sacca) he understands according to reality. Metta, James ps. As the Buddha taught, contemplation of breath alone (without the body sweeping method of Goenka) fulfills all four aspects of satipatthana. #66231 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:49 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,122 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 122. But which kind of consciousness has which kind of formations as its condition? Firstly, the following sixteen kinds arise with the sense-sphere formation of merit as condition: the five profitable resultants beginning with eye-consciousness ((34)-(38)), and in the case of mind-consciousness one kind of mind element (39) and two kinds of mind-consciousness element ((40)-(41)), and the eight kinds of sense-sphere resultant ((42)-(49)), according as it is said: 'Owing to profitable kamma of the sense sphere having been performed, stored up, resultant eye-consciousness' (Dhs.431), 'ear-, nose-, tongue-, body consciousness' (Dhs.443), 'resultant mind element arises' (Dhs.455), 'mind-consciousness element accompanied by joy arises' (Dhs.469), 'mind-consciousness element accompanied by equanimity arises' (Dhs.484), 'accompanied by joy and associated with knowledge ... accompanied by joy, associated with knowledge and prompted ... accompanied by joy and dissociated from knowledge ... accompanied by joy, dissociated from knowledge and prompted ... accompanied by equanimity and associated with knowledge ... accompanied by equanimity, associated with knowledge and prompted ... accompanied by equanimity and dissociated from knowledge ... accompanied by equanimity, dissociated from knowledge and prompted' (Dhs.498). ******************** 122. katarasa"nkhaarapaccayaa katara.m vi~n~naa.nanti ce. kaamaavacarapu~n~naabhisa"nkhaarapaccayaa taava kusalavipaakaani pa~nca cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadiini, manovi~n~naa.ne ekaa manodhaatu, dve manovi~n~naa.nadhaatuyo, a.t.tha kaamaavacaramahaavipaakaaniiti so.lasa. yathaaha -- ``kaamaavacarassa kusalassa kammassa ka.tattaa upacitattaa vipaaka.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m uppanna.m hoti. sota... ghaana... jivhaa... kaayavi~n~naa.na.m . vipaakaa manodhaatu uppannaa hoti. somanassasahagataa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu uppannaa hoti. upekkhaasahagataa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu uppannaa hoti. somanassasahagataa ~naa.nasampayuttaa. somanassasahagataa ~naa.nasampayuttaa sasa"nkhaarena. somanassasahagataa ~naa.navippayuttaa. somanassasahagataa ~naa.navippayuttaa sasa"nkhaarena. upekkhaasahagataa ~naa.nasampayuttaa. upekkhaasahagataa ~naa.nasampayuttaa sasa"nkhaarena. upekkhaasahagataa ~naa.navippayuttaa. upekkhaasahagataa ~naa.navippayuttaa sasa"nkhaarenaa''ti (dha0 sa0 431, 498). #66232 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:37 pm Subject: elements of experience lbidd2 Hi Sarah and Ken, Perhaps we could try to re-focus a little bit. The main question is, is rupa an experience or not? This question is slightly different from the question, is rupa experienced? I think we can agree that the answer to the second question is, yes, rupa is experienced. The example of the glasses is meant to show that the visible data rupa is not a blur, as far as we know, but the experience of visible data may have fuzzy edges if the eye base sensitive matter group is impaired. (I'm using 'group' here because blurred vision is due to a number of factors.) So, to re-focus, what is visual experience? Is visual experience simply eye-consciousness? If we can't agree that visual experience is only eye-consciousness, can we agree that rupa is not an experience? If rupa is an experience, what do we need consciousness for? Larry #66233 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:07 pm Subject: Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! bjones6513 Hi James, My feelings about Goenka are that he has taken a narrow aspect of the Satipatthana Sutta and applied it in a way to be of great benefit to beginners and lay people. Because one does not practice the 4 satis in their entirety does not mean that one is not practicing the teachings of the Buddha. I guess if one were to "practice these four foundations of mindfulness for seven years" and so on one "may expect one of two results" and I'm sure you know what these are. In the words of U Ba Khin, "It is open to anyone to try others means, but my suggestion is that one should have oneself well established in the understanding of anicca through bodily feelings before an attempt is made through other types of feelings." I realize that Goenka focuses on one aspect but I feel it is for two valid reasons: an entry point for many people and an expedient way of practice for lay people. One can always move on. My practice has changed dramatically over the years. Whether I'm mistaken, in your opinion, or not really doesn't matter to me but to discourage someone from the beginning and tell them to abandon everything they learned at a Goenka retreat is doing a disservice to someone who has helped multitudes. There are other students of U Ba Khin who teach a more complete approach such as Mother Sayamagyi. Myself, I tend to favor the Forest monks such as Ajahn Chah. Bhante Gunaratana at Bhavana Society also offers some great teaching on MP3 on the Satipatthana Sutta. By the way, my son is attending his first Goenka retreat in 2 weeks and an intro to meditation. With kind regards, Bill #66234 From: "kanchaa" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:03 pm Subject: Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! kanchuu2003 Hello Bill and James, Thanks for your help. I have recently returned from 10 days mediation. I could see spark, where I have to reach. I could feel Aniica (Impermancence). And after I returned home I have not been albe to concetrate as my mind wanders and disturbances too.. I wanted to know how could I control my mind. I want to practice whatever I was taught and I am not satisfied with my performenance. I would want to advance more in later days, but I am sure, I cannot practice it on my own, without any teacher. Right now, I know the technique taught by S.N.Goenka, so I would focus on the same and would want to practice. Today I will be going for a group meditation and talk to the aast teacher about the problem. I will keep you posting about my experiences and problems.. Hope to seek your continous help so that I can practice Dhamma without any doubts. Sincerely, Nitesh #66235 From: "kanchaa" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] How to control your anger! kanchuu2003 Dear All, Thank you very much for your support. Its been very helpfulf for me understanding Dhamma. Now I can understand it but the worse is, I am unconcious when I am angry.... I have to practice Dhamma to get it into my life. Sincerely, Nitesh #66236 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Larry) - In a message dated 12/16/06 6:37:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > But 'itch' itself is not one of those sensations or objects of > consciousness. 'Itch' would be a concept like 'tree' is. > ==================== An 'itch' is a concept, but an itch is something directly experienced - unless, of course, it is a sankharic amalgam of several direct experiences, in which case I would agree that it is not a paramattha dhamma, but a stream of related paramattha dhammas graspec as a unity. That latter may indeed be the case. With metta, Howard #66237 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:40 pm Subject: Re: Questioning Your Response Re: [dsg] More on how to control your anger! upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 12/16/06 7:10:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > If this post is your idea of not pulling any punches, I need to teach > you a thing or two. You hit like a girl! LOL! (just kidding) ;-)). > > ====================== LOLOL! As a matter of fact, you arose in my mind as I was writing that! ;-)) With metta, Howard #66238 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 4:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Please Help me with Vipassana! upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/16/06 6:43:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Yes, or we could say that cultivation can arise at any time, depending > on conditions. > > Think about that! ;-)) > ====================== Hmm, okay. I've thought about it ... and dismissed it as false. With metta, Howard #66239 From: Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 7:48 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] processes of cittas. jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... Send Email Dear Sarah, Thx and nice to see your comments that gives me a really break. Sorry, I am working in a restricted mail set up, probably it may not reached there. I will post my photo in the group page, from my room pc. You know, last night I was listening to some audio guide lines about vipassana meditation, one area was very interest, there it says, be still in body (no movements even a finger) then move your mind in to your skelton, and dream of it (appearence). you will feel that there is no person. only fleshes and bones etc. with that I gone slept. This morning, when I am coming to office, I was dreaming of my skelton and same way about others' movements. Its very funny for a while we all are like aliens, moving on the earth, without knowing the purpose. may all being be happy and well, dinesh #66240 From: "Ben O'Loughlin" Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:27 pm Subject: Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! oloughlinben Dear Nitesh I have just joined this group and I hope you don't mind me replying to your comment. I've been a practitioner of vipassana as taught by SN Goenka for quite a few years and I've done a number of courses. It is difficult coming back home. Sometimes, you don't feel anything! Just continue. If you are having trouble concentrating, go back to anapana. Eventually you'll begin to perceive sensations again. Just keep sitting! Metta Ben #66241 From: Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:00 pm Subject: A word jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... If one, longing for sensual pleasure, achieves it, yes, he's enraptured at heart. The mortal gets what he wants. But if for that person -- longing, desiring -- the pleasures diminish, he's shattered, as if shot with an arrow. Sutta Nipata IV, 1 #66242 From: Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:54 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] How to control your anger! jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... dear Nitesh, I have heard best way to get off from anger is, before forgiving others, start forging your-self for what ever errors/mistakes you do. Its a false and cheating your self, if you forgive others (sardha) but not your self. Sardha should start from you, then to spread on others. be kind to your self under all circumstances, that makes a real change in you. i did it, got it and enjoys today. may dhamma showers in you too. dinesh #66243 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:49 pm Subject: Re: Questioning Your Response Re: [dsg] More on how to control your anger! nilovg Hi Howard, James, I was not thinking of punches, since some words in English are above my head! In short: I like to correspond with Howard. I do not have any idea of having to defend myself. It gives me an opportunity to reflect more on the subject. Nina. Op 17-dec-2006, om 6:40 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > LOLOL! As a matter of fact, you arose in my mind as I was writing > that! ;-)) #66244 From: "Joop" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: new member intro, jhana, vipassana jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hallo Joop, .... Hallo Nina, Thanks for your answer; I think we can agree on many aspects. N: "You find right concentration very important." J: That is a misunderstanding. The topic we were talking about was vipassana and I mentioned right mindfulnes, not right concentration. But as I said in my message two days ago and as you are syaing too: all aspects of the Noble Eightfold Path are important. And we had to practice them all. For a beginner it's good to practice them one after one seperately, but more and more we had to (and we can) practice them together, combined. Perhaps one of the differences between us, if I understand you well, is that to me all eight aspects are equal and to you 'right view' is more equal, is leading. You also use the term 'understanding'; I'm not sure if this word is to you the same as 'right view' ? I'm also not sure you use it as a translation of 'panna'. To me the explanation of Bhikkhu Bodhi is more clear, in his essay in Wheel 308 'More clear' than you Sujin-quote. Below a quote of a part of chapter VIII of it, 'The Development of Wisdom' To BB and to me panna (wisdom) is the result of practicing the NEP. To mrs Sujin and to you panna is doing something: understanding I think Howard is right in criticising this expression 'panna knows'. This expression is not empty enough. Another little point of disagreement is about the end of your message: < The cause which can bring such a result has to be developed time and again, life after life.> J: Talking about 'life after life' is speculative and I prefer not speculate. Metta Joop BHIKKHU BODHI - THE NOBLE EIGHTFOLD PATH ( www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html ), Chapter VIII THE DEVELOPMENT OF WISDOM "… Though right concentration claims the last place among the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, concentration itself does not mark the path's culmination. The attainment of concentration makes the mind still and steady, unifies its concomitants, opens vast vistas of bliss, serenity, and power. But by itself it does not suffice to reach the highest accomplishment, release from the bonds of suffering. To reach the end of suffering demands that the Eightfold Path be turned into an instrument of discovery, that it be used to generate the insights unveiling the ultimate truth of things. This requires the combined contributions of all eight factors, and thus a new mobilization of right view and right intention. Up to the present point these first two path factors have performed only a preliminary function. Now they have to be taken up again and raised to a higher level. Right view is to become a direct seeing into the real nature of phenomena, previously grasped only conceptually; right intention, to become a true renunciation of defilements born out of deep understanding." … "Whereas ignorance obscures the true nature of things, wisdom removes the veils of distortion, enabling us to see phenomena in their fundamental mode of being with the vivacity of direct perception. The training in wisdom centers on the development of insight (vipassana- bhavana), a deep and comprehensive seeing into the nature of existence which fathoms the truth of our being in the only sphere where it is directly accessible to us, namely, in our own experience. …" #66245 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:21 am Subject: More on how to control anger. nilovg Dear Nitesh and all, Nitesh, I know that you are interested in the perfections. Here I have more on the perfection of patience that can be of help when angry: < We read in the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” (Miscellaneous Sayings): “The perfection of patience should be considered next: Patience is the unimpeded weapon of the good in the development of noble qualities, for it dispels anger, the opposite of all such qualities, without residue. It is the adornment of those capable of vanquishing the foe; the strength of recluses and brahmins; a stream of water extinguishing the fire of anger; the basis for acquiring a good reputation; a mantra for quelling the poisonous speech of evil people; the supreme source of constancy in those established in restraint. Patience is an ocean on account of its depth; a shore bounding the great ocean of hatred; a panel closing off the door to the plane of misery; a staircase ascending to the worlds of the gods and Brahmas; the ground for the habitation of all noble qualities; the supreme purification of body, speech and mind.” As we read, patience is “the unimpeded weapon of the good”: akusala can be destroyed when one is righteous. When patience arises we have no disturbance, because khanti, patience, cannot harm righteous people. “Patience is the unimpeded weapon of the good in the development of noble qualities, for it dispels anger, the opposite of all such qualities, without residue”, as we read. If we are able to be patient, anger cannot arise, there cannot be wrong speech, not even the slightest amount. We shall not utter angry words. As we read, patience is “the adornment of those capable of vanquishing the foe.” > ******* Nina. #66246 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:24 am Subject: release of mind matheesha333 This amazing sutta seems to be about ways in which release of the mind comes about. I think it is useful to a degree in identifying such experiences. The development of samadhi etc in this seems to be automatic, rather than practiced, as seen in other suttas. -------------------- 6. Vimuttàyatanasuttaü Ý The sphere of the releases 003.06. Bhikkhus, these five are the sphere of the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. What five? Here, bhikkhus, the Teacher or else a certain eminent co-associate in the holy life, teaches the bhikkhu. Then he gradually understands the meanings and experiences the Teaching. When understanding the meanings and experiencing the Teaching delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasa ntness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the first of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches. Yet the bhikkhu preaches others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered When he preaches others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered he realizes the meaning and experiences the Teaching and delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the second of the five releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. Yet he recites in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and realizing the meanings and experiencin g the Teaching delight arises, to the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the third of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Again, bhikkhus, neither the Teacher nor an eminent co-associate in the holy life teaches him. He does not preach others in detail the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. nor does he recite in detail, the Teaching that he had heard and mastered. He does not think and discursively think about the Teaching that he had heard and mastered and the mind does not touch a point. Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, this is the fifth of the releases, in which sphere when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. Bhikkhus, these five are the releases, in which spheres when the bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. #66247 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:40 am Subject: Re: release of mind nidive Hi Matheesha, > Yet he thinks and discursively thinks about the Teaching that > he had heard and mastered and the mind touches a point and delight > arises. To the delighted joy arises Of one with a joyful mind the > body appeases. The appeased body experiences pleasantness. The mind > of one who experiences pleasantness comes to one point. Bhikkhus, > this is the fourth of the five releases, in which sphere when the > bhikkhu dwells diligent to dispel, either the not released mind is > released, or the unexhausted desires get exhausted or the noble end > of unpleasantness not yet attained is attained. I particularly like this fourth sphere of release made known by the Buddha. Thank You! Swee Boon #66248 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:11 am Subject: Questioning Your Response Re: [dsg] More on how to control your anger! rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina (and Nitesh, and all) - > > > You are enormously to be admired, Nina, for your presentation of > pariyatti and for your remsrkable, unwavering efforts. I truly do admire you. But I > have grave reservations with regard to to Khun Sujin's and your presentation > of what what constitutes patipatti, ____________ Dear Howard What is your take on this sutta that Matheesha posted today.. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/66246 Robert #66249 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:10 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 612- Wholesome Deeds(i) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd Some of the “ten bases of meritorious deeds” are included in morality, síla. Abstinence from ill deeds is síla. There is abstinence from akusala kamma through the body and this is abstinence from killing, stealing and sexual misconduct. There is abstinence from akusala kamma through speech and this is abstinence from lying, slandering, rude speech and idle talk. When we commit wrong deeds for the sake of our livelihood, there is wrong livelihood. When we abstain from wrong livelihood there is right livelihood. As we have seen (in chapter 32), the three sobhana cetasikas which are abstinence from wrong speech, abstinence from wrong action and abstinence from wrong livelihood perform their functions in assisting the kusala citta while there is an occasion for abstaining from evil conduct. Síla is not only abstaining from what should not be done, it is also observing what should be done. We can observe moral precepts which are the foundation of wholesome conduct. A layman can make a resolution to observe them. He makes the resolution to undertake the rule of training to abstain from the following unwholesome deeds: -killing living beings -stealing -sexual misbehaviour -lying -the taking of intoxicants such as alcoholic drinks It is a Buddhist custom for laypeople to recite the five precepts when they are assembled in a temple on special occasions. When one recites them with a sincere inclination there is an opportunity for wholesomeness. Conditions are accumulated for wholesome conduct, for observing the precepts also when one is in difficult circumstances which make it hard to observe them. Morality can be considered also under the aspect of generosity, as a form of giving, because when we give up defilements it is also for the benefit and happiness of other beings; we let them live in safety and in peace. When we abstain from killing we give the gift of life. When we see morality as a gift of kindness to others and as a way to have less selfishness we can be inspired to observe it. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66250 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] permission from parents sarahprocter... Hi JC, --- jcmendoza1000 wrote: > To Sarah: > Is it true that you've to have the permission of > your parents before you can ordain? What if you're adopted? -JC ... S: Yes, you have to have the permission of both your parents if they are alive. If you have been adopted the parents are still considered as parents and permission is still required, I believe. Ven Dhammanando gave a detailed reply with detail from the Vinaya on this question before, so I'll repost it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/46052 >Re: question on seeking permission from parents Ven Dhammanando wrote: .... Dear Ken O., > One needs permission from their parents before ordain as a > monk A friend ask me two questions > a. Does one need both parents to give permission or either > one will do? Permission from both parents is needed. The Mahaavagga states: na, bhikkhave, ananu~n~naato maataapituuhi putto pabbaajetabbo. Yo pabbaajeyya, aapatti dukka.tassa. "Monks, a son must not be given the going forth without permission from his mother and father. Should one do so, it is an offence of wrong-doing." -- Vin. i. 83 The Atthakathaa states: sace dve atthi, dvepi aapucchitabbaa. "If both exist [i.e. are alive], then leave must be obtained from both." -- VinA. v. 1011 But there are quite a number of exceptions given in the Vinaya Atthakatha. Below I have appended a translation of it. > b. He said that permission only applicable to only child in > the family. If the family has a few children, then as long > as there are some children not ordained, one of them who > wished to be obtained, dont need the parent permission. I think your friend has been misinformed, or perhaps what he heard concerns the interpretation of the Chinese Dharmagupta tradition. The Atthakathaa does offer a few loopholes (I particularly like the one about the spoilt kid!), but none of them come close to what your friend is describing. Tomorrow I will be going to Lamphun for a fortnight, so I won't be able to answer any further questions till I get back. Best wishes, Dhammanando ____________________________ A quick and rough translation of Buddhaghosa's explanation of the phrase, "without permission from his mother and father" (VinA. v. 1011-12) Here, the phrase "from his mother and father" was said in regard to the man and woman who conceived him. If both are living, then leave must be obtained from both of them. If the father or mother is deceased, then leave must be obtained from [the parent] who is still living. Even if they have themselves gone forth, leave must still be obtained from them. * * * * When obtaining leave, he may either go and obtain it himself, or may send another person, saying to him, "Go to my mother and father and having obtained their leave come back." * * * * If he says, "I am one who has obtained permission," he may be given the going forth if it is believable. * * * * A father has himself gone forth and wishes his son to go forth; having obtained leave of the mother, let him go forth; or, a mother wishes her daughter to go forth; having obtained leave of the father, let her go forth. * * * * A father, not concerned for the welfare of his wife and son, runs away. The mother gives her son to some monks, saying, "Let him go forth." When asked, "Where has his father gone?" she replies, "He has run away to disport himself." -- It is suitable for him [the son] to be given the going forth. A mother has run away with some man or other. The father gives [his son to some monks, saying], "Let him go forth." The principle in this case is just the same as above. The Kurundii* states: 'A father is absent. The mother gives her son permission, saying, "Let him go forth." When asked, "Where has his father gone?" she replies, "I shall be responsible for whatever is due to you from the father." -- It is suitable for him [the son] to be given the going forth.' [* Kurundii: the Sinhalese commentary most frequently cited by Buddhaghosa as the source of his Vinaya exegesis.] * * * * The mother and father are deceased. Their boy has grown up in the company of [relatives] such as his maternal aunt. When he is being given the going forth, his relatives start a quarrel or criticize it. Therefore, in order to stop the quarrel, he should obtain their leave before being given the going forth. But if given the going forth without having obtained their leave there is no offence. They who undertook to feed him in his childhood are called "mother" and "father", and with respect to these the principle is just the same as above. The son [is reckoned as] one living dependent on himself, not on a mother and father. * * * * Even if he be a king, he must still obtain leave before being given the going forth. * * * * Being permitted by his mother and father, he goes forth, but [later] reverts [to being a householder]. Even if he goes forth and reverts seven times, on each occasion that he comes [to go forth] again he must obtain leave [from his mother and father] before he may be given the going forth. * * * * If [his mother and father] say: "This [son of ours], having reverted and come home, does not do any work for us; having gone forth he will not fulfil his duty to you; there is no point in him obtaining leave; whenever he comes to you, just give him the going forth." When [a son] has been disowned in this way, it is suitable for him to be given the going forth again without even obtaining leave. * * * * He who when only in his childhood had been given away [by his mother and father, saying], "This is a gift for you; give him the going forth whenever you want," may be given the going forth whenever he comes [to ask for it], without even obtaining leave. But [a mother and father], having given permission [to their son] when he was only in his childhood, afterwards, when he has reached maturity, withdraw their permission; he must not be given the going forth without obtaining leave. * * * * An only son, after quarrelling with his mother and father, comes [to the sangha, saying], "Let me go forth." Upon being told, "Come back after you have obtained leave," he says, "I'm not going! If you don't let me go forth, I shall burn down your monastery, or stab you with a sword, or cause loss to your relatives and supporters by cutting down the plants in their gardens, or kill myself by jumping from a tree, or join a gang of robbers, or go to another country." It is suitable to let him go forth in order to safeguard life. If his mother and father then come and say, "Why did you let our son go forth?" they should be informed of the reason for it, saying, "We let him go forth in order to safeguard life. You may confirm this with your son." * * * * Then, [one saying] "I shall jump from a tree," has climbed up and is about to let go with his hands and feet. It is suitable to let him go forth. * * * * An only son, having gone to another country, requests the going forth. If he had obtained leave before departing, he may be given the going forth. If he had not obtained leave, having sent a young monk to get [the parents] to give their leave, he may be given the going forth. If it is a very distant country, it is suitable to just give him the going forth and then send him with other bhikkhus to inform [the parents]. But the Kurundii states: 'if [the country] is far away and the way to it is [across] a great wilderness (or desert), it is suitable to give him the going forth, [thinking], "having gone there [later] we shall obtain leave [of the parents]."' * * * * If a mother and father have many sons and speak thus: "Venerable sir, may you give the going forth to whichever [one] of these boys you choose," then having examined the boys, he may give the going forth to the one he chooses. If an entire [extended] family or an entire village is given permission [by someone, saying], "Venerable sir, may you give the going forth to whichever [one] of the boys in this family or this village you choose," he may give the going forth to the one he chooses. * * * * ********************** JC, hope this provides all the detail you're looking for. Thanks for the question. You may also like to take a browse at old posts from the archives saved in 'Useful Posts' under 'Rewata' and 'Vinaya'. Also maybe 'Parents'. Metta, Sarah ========= #66251 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/16/06 5:42:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > (I'm not sure > what you have in mind when you say that emotion has a cognitive basis) > ============================= It's the old (Indian) standard, Jon: You're walking in the forest/jungle at nightfall, when, suddenly, you get goosebumps, a rapid heartbeat, rapid, ragged breathing, sweating, and shaking, because, right in front of you on the path, it seems, lies a coiled snake about to strike. That is emotion based on cognition. But all that upset ceases, when, with a sigh of relief, you discover that it is but a coiled rope on the ground. There isn't nor was there a snake. With metta, Howard #66252 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:11 am Subject: Re: Questioning Your Response Re: [dsg] More on how to control your anger! upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/17/06 6:15:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard > What is your take on this sutta that Matheesha posted today.. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/66246 > > Robert > ===================== That is a good question, Robert, one that I expected some intelligent student of Khun Sujin to ask! My answer is that this phenomenon of achieving various sorts of release due to merely hearing the Dhamma recited is common for one who is a regular practitioner. [Note for example the sentence "Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises," indicating that this is a seasoned meditator.] In fact, states of jhana and much, much more than jhana are achievable at "regular times," triggered by various sorts of phenomena, even the crack of a pebble hitting bamboo, for one who is "ripe" due to cultivation. With metta, Howard #66253 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:36 am Subject: Questioning Your Response Re: [dsg] More on how to control your anger! rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 12/17/06 6:15:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > > > Dear Howard > > What is your take on this sutta that Matheesha posted today.. > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/66246 > > > > Robert > > > ===================== > That is a good question, Robert, one that I expected some intelligent > student of Khun Sujin to ask! My answer is that this phenomenon of achieving > various sorts of release due to merely hearing the Dhamma recited is common for > one who is a regular practitioner. [Note for example the sentence "Yet a > certain meditation object well grasped and well established is penetratingly seen > with wisdom and delight arises," indicating that this is a seasoned > meditator.] In fact, states of jhana and much, much more than jhana are achievable at > "regular times," triggered by various sorts of phenomena, even the crack of a > pebble hitting bamboo, for one who is "ripe" due to cultivation. > > With metta, > Howard > > Dear Howard Thanks. I think that phrase you quote( "Yet a certain meditation object well grasped and well established is penetratingly seen with wisdom and delight arises")is only in the last on the five types of release . And certainly, as I read it, the last of the five ways that Nibbana is attained is referring to the one with skill in jhana. But I don't see the same connection in the other four types (it might still be there of course). Robert #66254 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:26 am Subject: Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! bjones6513 In defense of Goenka and whether or not his teachings are that of the Buddha, here are two passages, among many more, that show they are the teachings of the Buddha. Not everyone has to practice the entire Satipatthana to be true to the teachings. Here is a quote from M.37.3. .....whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he abides contemplating impermanence in those feelings....Contemplating thus, he does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated. when he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana." Also, M.74.10-13 talks about feelings. " A well-taught noble disciple becomes disenchanted with neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. Being disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion his mind is liberated." Bill - #66255 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:49 am Subject: Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! bjones6513 Hi Ben, Very good advice. Bill #66256 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 4:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! upasaka_howard Hi, Bill - In a message dated 12/17/06 11:29:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bjones6513@... writes: > In defense of Goenka and whether or not his teachings are that of the > Buddha, here are two passages, among many more, that show they are > the teachings of the Buddha. Not everyone has to practice the entire > Satipatthana to be true to the teachings. > Here is a quote from M.37.3. .....whatever feeling he feels, whether > pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant, he abides > contemplating impermanence in those feelings....Contemplating thus, he > does not cling to anything in this world. When he does not cling, he is > not agitated. when he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana." > Also, M.74.10-13 talks about feelings. " A well-taught noble disciple > becomes disenchanted with neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. Being > disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion his mind > is liberated." > Bill > ===================== The only exception I would take to what you say here is that when Goenka speaks of feelings, he means bodily sensations, which the Buddha would call rupas. For the Buddha, vedana is the affective experiencing of dhammas as pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. But it is also true that investigation of the body can take one all the way, and so you are correct. In MN 119, the Buddha said the following: "Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken, ten benefits can be expected. Which ten? [1] "He conquers displeasure & delight, and displeasure does not conquer him. He remains victorious over any displeasure that has arisen. [2] "He conquers fear & dread, and fear & dread do not conquer him. He remains victorious over any fear & dread that have arisen. [3] "He is resistant to cold, heat, hunger, thirst, the touch of gadflies & mosquitoes, wind & sun & creeping things; to abusive, hurtful language; he is the sort that can endure bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, sharp, stabbing, fierce, distasteful, disagreeable, deadly. [4] "He can attain at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhanas — heightened mental states providing a pleasant abiding in the here & now. [5] "He wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, & mountains as if through space. He dives in & out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches & strokes even the sun & moon, so mighty & powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. [6] "He hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified & surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine & human, whether near or far. [7] "He knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled mind [one that is not at the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind. [8] "He recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes & details. [9] "He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away & re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. [10] "Through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here & now."Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken, these ten benefits can be expected. "That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. With metta, Howard #66257 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:54 am Subject: Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! bjones6513 Hi Howard, Thanks for the post. My understanding of vedana and the dictionary translations, and I realize many of the Pali words are used differently in different situations, that's why I previously asked which dictionary this group uses, is:vedanā 'feeling', sensation, is the 2nd of the 5 groups of existence (s. khandha II). According to its nature, it may be divided into 5 classes: (1) bodily agreeable feeling (kāyikā sukhā-vedanā = sukha); (2) bodily disagreeable feeling (kāyikā dukkhā-vedanā = dukkhā); (3) mentally agreeable feeling (cetasikā sukhā-vedanā = somanassa); (4) mentally disagreeable feeling (cetasikā dukkhā-vedanā = domanassa); (5) indifferent or neutral (adukkha-m-asukhā vedanā = upekkhā, q.v.). Maybe I'm missing something, but the above is from one of the dictionaries recommended. But as you say, I've seen vedana used in different contexts other than bodily feelings or rupas. BTW, I always enjoy reading the quote from the Diamond Sutra which always follows your emails. With metta, Bill #66258 From: "bjones6513" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:39 am Subject: Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! bjones6513 Hi Howard, You got me looking up references. B Bodhi in Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, p. 115, describes feelings as "both bodily pleasure and mental pleasure or joy, and painful feeling includes both bodily pain and mental pain or displeasure." Regardless of whether feelings are bodily or mental they are still the "affective experiencing of dhammas as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral." I sure didn't know this would turn into such a lengthy topic. I was just trying to encourage the person to continue with their Goenka practice and not to abandon it as they were told by someone in this discussion group. With metta, Bill #66259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:50 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe, 154 nilovg Dear friends, Being subject to birth is dangerous. No rebirth at all in any plane of existence is to be preferred to birth even in the highest heavenly plane. If one wants to have no more rebirth right understanding of realities should be developed in order to realize the four ariyan (noble) Truths. Then one is on the way leading to the end of rebirth. The first ariyan Truth is the truth of dukkha. If we could experience, for instance, that seeing at this moment, hearing, attachment or any other nåma or rúpa which appears now is only an element which arises and falls away, we would have more understanding of the truth of dukkha. What arises and falls away cannot give satisfaction, it is dukkha. The second ariyan Truth is the truth of the origin of dukkha. Craving is the origin of dukkha. Through the development of the eightfold Path there will be less craving, less clinging to nåma and rúpa. When there finally is no more craving, there will be an end to rebirth, and this is the end of dukkha. The third ariyan Truth is the extinction of dukkha, which is nibbåna, and the fourth ariyan Truth is the Path leading to the extinction of dukkha, which is the eightfold Path. We read in the Mahå-parinibbåna-sutta (Dialogues of the Buddha II, no. 16, chapter II, 1-4): ... The Exalted One proceeded with a great company of the monks to Kotigåma; and there he stayed in the village itself. And at that place the Exalted One addressed the monks, and said: ``It is through not understanding and grasping four Ariyan Truths, O monks, that we have had to run so long, to wander so long in this weary path of rebirth, both you and I!'' ``And what are these four?'' ``The Ariyan truth about dukkha; the Ariyan truth about the cause of dukkha; the Ariyan truth about the cessation of dukkha; and the Ariyan truth about the path that leads to that cessation. But when these Ariyan truths are grasped and known the craving for future life is rooted out, that which leads to renewed becoming is destroyed, and then there is no more birth!'' ****** Nina. #66260 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:55 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana III, 7 nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin remarked that at the moments of vipassanå ñåna the sense objects appear and are understood only through the mind-door. When at those moments the mind-door appears it is as if none of the sense- doors is appearing. Thus, the situation is different from this moment when the mind-door is “obscured” by the sense-doors. At the moments of vipassanå ñåna sense objects are known one at a time and these appear only through the mind-door. But this does not mean that there are no sense-door processes, otherwise rúpas such as sound could not appear. Sound is experienced through the ear-door and extremely rapidly after that through the mind-door. In the case of vipassanå ñåna, it is experienced by paññå in a mind-door process and realized as it is, as rúpa. Khun Sujin said: “One rúpa at a time and one nåma at a time appears and is understood through the mind-door. The world with all the people is not experienced; there is no self, there is nothing else but nåma and rúpa which appear one at a time. At the moments of vipassanå ñåna there is no more doubt about the mind-door.” When we hear a sound at this moment we have a vague knowledge of the characteristic of sound, but nåma and rúpa and all the doorways are mixed up. Whereas when the first vipassanå ñåna arises the difference between nåma and rúpa is directly understood. Paññå clearly knows this, it does not have to think or consider. Is there doubt about the mind-door? Does nåma clearly appear as an element which experiences something? When we realize what we do not know yet we shall not erroneously believe that we can have direct understanding of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. This can only be realized at a later stage. First paññå must be developed to the stage that it can clearly distinguish between the different characteristics of nåma and of rúpa. ******* Nina. #66261 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! upasaka_howard Hi, Bill - In a message dated 12/17/06 1:57:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bjones6513@... writes: > > Maybe I'm missing something, but the above is from one of the > dictionaries recommended. But as you say, I've seen vedana used in > different contexts other than bodily feelings or rupas. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I understand bodily agreeable feeling to be the feeling of a bodily rupa as pleasant. That feeling-as-pleasant is different from the bodily sensation so felt. At least that is how I understand it. Similarly for unpleasant and neutral. So, for example, strong pressure in the body would be a rupa; if it is unpleasant, that feeling of unpleasantness would be called painfulness, and the pressure would be called a pain. But the pressure sensation is a rupa, and its unpleasant feel would be vedana.That's the way I understand the matter. Goenka, it sems to me, conflates bodily rupas with their pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral) affective "taste". ----------------------------------------- > > BTW, I always enjoy reading the quote from the Diamond Sutra which > always follows your emails. --------------------------------------- Howard: :-) It is a nice poetric translation, I think! ---------------------------------------- > With metta, > Bill > > ==================== With metta, Howard #66262 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! upasaka_howard Hi, Bill - > I sure didn't know this would turn into such a lengthy topic. I was just > trying to encourage the person to continue with their Goenka practice > and not to abandon it as they were told by someone in this discussion > group. > With metta, > Bill > ====================== My mentioning of the rupa/vedana business was just a side issue. I benefitted tremendusly from the one Goenka retreat I attended, though my practice now is anapanasati. With metta, Howard #66263 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:30 pm Subject: Trim Reminder dsgmods Hi All, Just the usual reminder-Trimming When replying to another post, please remember to trim any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply. If the post you are replying to is a recent one, you may assume that other members will have seen it. We appreciate your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS The full guidelines can be found in the files section. Comments or questions off-list only. Thanks #66264 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:39 pm Subject: Dinesh from Doha! sarahprocter... Hi Dinesh, Newcomers, Matheesha & all, Dinesh,thx so much for adding your nice pic to the album from the Asian Games. It really helps to remember who is who:-) How about a pic, Nitesh, Bill, Ben and any other newcomers? Meanwhile, you may like to take a browse to see the pics of other members you're writing to. Matheesha, I enjoyed reading your talk a lot. (Btw, was it at the Buddhist Vihara in Chiswick? I once gave a talk there, invited by Ven Saddhatissa who was then in charge, ages ago). Let us know how it went. Do you have a pic to go with it? Any other pics from oldies? Metta, Sarah ======== #66265 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:37 pm Subject: Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! buddhatrue Hi Bill, Bill: My feelings about Goenka are that he has taken a narrow aspect of the Satipatthana Sutta and applied it in a way to be of great benefit to beginners and lay people. James: I really don't understand your reasons for saying that Goenka's method is most appropriate for beginners and laypeople. Actually, since I am very familiar with his method, I can say with certainty that it is quite complicated. One must attend the 10 day retreat and receive instruction everyday in the method, or read his book The Art of Living which contains several chapters of explanation. Compare that to the Anapanasati Sutta which has only about 2,500 words and you can easily see that the Buddha's method is much simpler. Bill: to discourage someone from the beginning and tell them to abandon everything they learned at a Goenka retreat is doing a disservice to someone who has helped multitudes. James: It is not in my interest to support Goenka simply because he has helped multitudes of people begin the Buddha's path. It is more in my interest to warn people that Goenka teaches a method that the Buddha didn't teach, although Goenka claims otherwise. Why would I want to support an egomaniacal liar? Bill: By the way, my son is attending his first Goenka retreat in 2 weeks and an intro to meditation. James: It will be a good opportunity for him to practice meditation. However, you could let him read the Anapanasati Sutta before the retreat so that he could get a balanced perspective. What he does while sitting on that cushion is his business. Metta, James Ps. Anapanasati Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html Further explanation, if necessary, "Keeping the Breath in Mind": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html#toc #66266 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:54 pm Subject: Questioning Your Response Re: [dsg] More on how to control your anger! buddhatrue Hi Nina and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard, James, > I was not thinking of punches, since some words in English are above > my head! In short: I like to correspond with Howard. I do not have > any idea of having to defend myself. It gives me an opportunity to > reflect more on the subject. > Nina. I was just joking with Howard. Howard giving all kinds of warnings in his post when he was really just throwing daisies cracked me up! ;-)) I wasn't really recommending the he be as aggressive as me in his method of communication. We each have our own style. Metta, James #66267 From: "kanchaa" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! kanchuu2003 Dear All, I am good, meditating twice daily for an hour. I am completly lost. The mails that you have been sending goes above my head.. Anyways, thank you very much. Sincerely, Ntesh #66268 From: Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:25 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dinesh from Doha! jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... hi sarah, thank you very much for your kind words. last evening I posted my pic there, and browsed other pix as well. I show you and all other friends too. It was interesting, all dhamma freinds in the globe filters into one folder, share and grow. Appreciate once again your encouraging keep me warm. may all be well and happy, dinesh ________________________________ Dinesh,thx so much for adding your nice pic to the album from the Asian Games. It really helps to remember who is who:-) <....> #66269 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! sarahprocter... Dear Nitesh, I've also been glad to see you back after your meditation course and thank you for your sincere questions. --- kanchaa wrote: > Dear All, > > I am good, meditating twice daily for an hour. > > I am completly lost. The mails that you have been sending goes above > my head.. .... S: I think this is very understandable, but don't give up! It's good if you ask people to reply in simpler language or to ask for clarifications anytime. With regard to your questions on anger, being annoyed by people and difficulties meditating and so on, I think that all such questions are pointing to the core of the Buddha's teachings on *anatta*. We learn that there really isn't a 'Nitesh' or anyone else that can stop or control unpleasant states or make the pleasant ones or good ones arise whenever we'd like. Don't you find that this is true? Don't your questions show this? The Buddha taught that there are only 'elements' (dhatus) which are anatta and which cannot be made to arise by wishing. So, we are used to thinking that *we* experience anger that won't go away, but really there is just an element of anger and an idea about another person or something that we're angry about. We also learn that whenever a 'bad' state such as anger arises and shows itself, it is time for awareness to be aware of it and for understanding to begin to know it as anatta, instead of thinking 'how can I get rid of it?'. Strange as it may seem, it is not the trying to get rid of it that actually has the effect of doing so, but the clear understanding about what it is. I think you already know from your reading and consideration that all the difficulties we face in life and all the annoyances that disturb us, are actually caused by our attachments. And the greatest of these attachments is the clinging to ourselves - the wanting experiences to be different from what they are at this moment. Does this help at all? If not, please tell me which parts don't make sense. Thanks a lot again for your good questions. Do you have a pic you can add to the album, Nitesh, maybe one that says 'Nitesh from Nepal' so we don't confuse you with anyone else here:-). Metta, Sarah p.s Do you have a chance to hike in your beautiful nearby mountains? Would you consider meditation whilst hiking? A few years ago, Jon and I spent a wonderful Xmas hiking in the lovely mountains just out of Kathmandu - it was freezing cold in our tent, but the sherpas provided us with lovely hot food, inc. a Xmas pudding with crackers on Xmas day! ========= #66270 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:28 pm Subject: Mutual Faith ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is the Mutual Co-Dependence of Faith? Having faith, an effort is made! By making an effort, faith arises! Having faith, awareness is setup! By setup awareness, faith arises! Having faith focuses concentration! By concentration faith arises! Having faith one understands! One who understands gains faith! Having faith it is exerted; because it is exerted it gathers faith... Having faith it is established; by being established it makes faith... Having faith it is concentrated; being concentrated it reaps faith... Having faith it understands; because it understands it earns faith... Source: Sariputta - The General of the Dhamma - The Canonical: Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga. IV. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Friendship is the Greatest Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon <...> #66271 From: JC Mendoza Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] permission from parents jcmendoza1000 It doesn't seem to state the case of onbe who was adopted. Should he obtain leave from his real parents or the adpotive parents? What if he doesn't know where his real parents are and it would be very inconvenient to ask about them? sarah abbott wrote: ... S: Yes, you have to have the permission of both your parents if they are alive. If you have been adopted the parents are still considered as parents and permission is still required, I believe. <....> #66272 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (Larry & Howard), Another attempt at clarifying my thoughts.... --- ken_aitch wrote: You asked: " When a person is vision-impaired, does eye-consciousness occur in a weakened form, or does it occur in the usual form but less frequently?": The points I was trying to make (in a clumsy way) were: 1. That I don't consider either alternative to be quite right, certainly not the latter one. Instead there are several other factors to consider, especially the sensitivity of the eye-base, I'd say. As we know, in the sensuous realm, all six bases (vatthus) arise and fall away except for those blind or deaf from conception. (In the rupa-brahma realm, there are no bases for smelling, tasting and body-consciousness, these said to be coarser than those bases for seeing and hearing. I've read that the physical components of the organs exist there, but not the sensitivity to serve as vatthus.) 2. So, in the 'vision-impaired', the eye-base is there, but the eye-sensitivity or vatthu which has to act as prenascence and support condition for seeing consciousness throughout life may be weakened, thus affecting the nature of the consciousness. Whether we can refer to it as 'weakened', I'm not sure. 3. The seeing will also be affected by the nature of the visible object appearing (how bright or dim, for example) and the 'age' of the visible object when the consciousness arises. We had a long discussion before with Htoo about when objects are classified as being 'clear, very clear, faint and very faint' according to whether javana and tadarammana cittas arise and so on. If there are no javana cittas arising, for example, the object is said to be very faint - it is not experienced by lobha or dosa, for a start. So when we refer to bad eyesight, I think all these factors are relevant. Conventionally, we say we can refer to the poor eyesight or weakened eye-consciousness, but nothing is quite so simple from an Abhidhamma perspective.:-) ...... > S: Here's a quote for Howard too (relating to other threads, I think) > from Sammohavinodani transl (PTS), Classification of the Structure of > Conditions, 688: > > "Firstly, in one who is reborn by means of either profitable result or > unprofitable result, according as is faculties mature, [so] the five > profitable resultant eye- [etc.] consciousnesses occur, accomplishing > the functions of seeing - [etc.], on being instigated [respectively] > by a desirable or desirable-neutral visible datum, etc, as objects > come into the focus of the eye, etc, and having eye-sensitivity > (cakkhu pasaada) as their [material] support. Likewise the five > unprofitable resultant [consciousnesses]; the only difference being > this, that the visible data, etc. as object for these are undesirable > or undesirable-neutral...." ..... S: Yes, the quote was only marginally related to our discussion, but more closely related to discussions on a)desirable/pleasant vs undesirable/unpleasant visible objects and b) cittas with functions which I recalled we'd both been having with Howard. 4. On the present discussion here, however, I thought the quote was also of some relevance in stressing the nature of seeing consciousness as being affected by a)kamma, b)visible object and c)eye-sensitivity. I didn't find any quote, however, as referring to strong or weak eye consciousness as such, though. (I'll also raise this in Bkk). 5. As far as awareness and insight go, of course it's not of issue. Seeing consciousness has the same characteristic of such regardless of the individual quality and can be known when it's the object of awareness just as it is. Does this still miss the mark? Metta, Sarah p.s. Good news about the broadband - hope you get the technical hitches sorted out. Now in Hong Kong it seems that everyone has broadband and the systems are so overloaded that at peak hours it's now no longer any quicker than the old dial-up.... ======= #66273 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience sarahprocter... Hi Larry (& Ken H), --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah and Ken, > > Perhaps we could try to re-focus a little bit. The main question is, is > rupa an experience or not? .... S: I don't think this is a question for Ken or I:-) Rupa is never an experience, it is the dhamma which is only ever experienced. .... >This question is slightly different from the > question, is rupa experienced? .... S: Yes, it is a different question:-) .... >I think we can agree that the answer to > the second question is, yes, rupa is experienced. .... S: Phew! .... > The example of the glasses is meant to show that the visible data rupa > is not a blur, as far as we know, .... S: No, it is not a blur. Just as sounds can be loud or soft, visible objects can be bright or not, but the 'blur' is an idea about the total experience of seeing visible objects and thinking about them, I think. A bit like the 'itch' we think about from the experiencing of various tangible objects. .... > but the experience of visible data may > have fuzzy edges if the eye base sensitive matter group is impaired. > (I'm using 'group' here because blurred vision is due to a number of > factors.) .... S: I think this is a combination of what happens and what we conventionally say happens and in this regard, I agree. .... > So, to re-focus, ... S: Ah,with the new glasses.... ... >what is visual experience? Is visual experience simply > eye-consciousness? If we can't agree that visual experience is only > eye-consciousness, can we agree that rupa is not an experience? .... S: Simply put, the visible object has to impinge on the eye-base (sensitive matter)and eye-consciousness (resulting from kamma) has to arise also immediately, otherwise visible object data cannot appear and there is no 'visual experience'. This is really the meaning of 'ayatana', the coming together of these different elements at the same moment, like a perfectly co-ordinated orchestra, for the experience to take place. So we see these various 'instruments' are all finely 'tuned' and co-ordinated and also include the essential, 'universal' mental factors - contact, attention, concentration, life-faculty, feeling, perception and intention. We see that these ayatanas or elements arise, perform their functions and fall away by conditions. They are not agents or selves, but anatta. ... > If rupa is an experience, what do we need consciousness for? .... S: If rupas were the whole experience, life would exist in rocks and computers. But it doesn't! Does that answer it? Metta, Sarah ======= #66274 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] permission from parents sarahprocter... Hi JC (&Ven Dhammanando) --- JC Mendoza wrote: > It doesn't seem to state the case of onbe who was adopted. Should he > obtain leave from his real parents or the adpotive parents? What if he > doesn't know where his real parents are and it would be very > inconvenient to ask about them? .... S: I understand that the adoptive parents are for all intents and purposes considered as THE parents. See this line which was included: "They who undertook to feed him in his childhood are called "mother" and "father"" I don't think he needs to look for his real parents or ask about them. He was 'given' to and brought up by his adoptive parents, so this seems pretty clear to me. I'm not any kind of Vinaya expert, however. If Ven Dhammanando or anyone else has anything further to add, I'd be glad. (JC, you don't need to answer if it's too personal, but it would be interesting to know if you are hoping to ordain and if this is a problem) Metta, Sarah ========= #66275 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:57 pm Subject: Questioning your response, practice. no. 1 nilovg Hi Howard, ------ H: If your view of the Dhamma is not just that of a report of the facts plus the instruction to study the report, I hope that you will make very clear how it differs from that. ---------- N: I try! Perhaps I take more than one post to avoid making a post too long. The zest of you questions: are listening and intellectual understanding all there is to the application of the Dhamma? The zest of my answer: listening is the most important condition for the development of understanding. The Dhamma one hears must be applied in daily life, in our relationship with others. For this purpose the development of all the perfections is indispensable. The perfections are a guideline for all aspects of daily life. We had a similar discussion before, but now I want to illustrate what I said above more with quotes from Kh. Sujin’s Perfections. --------- Quote: However, if someone has //1// LISTENED to the Dhamma and he develops > satipatthåna, sati-sampajañña can arise and be aware of akusala when > he is irritated or displeased. ------- H: In (1) and (4) you speak of listening to the Dhamma. You never seem to give any condition other than that (intentional) activity of listening as a basis for cultivating sati-sampajañña, not even intentionally paying attention to what is happening in the moment and avoiding the loss of "presentness" (i.e.avoiding getting lost in thought or sloth and torpor). To me, that restriction makes Dhamma practice a one-trick pony. Of course, sometimes you do add on considering or contemplating meaning, as in (2), but that just consists of thinking. That seems to be about it. Thus it seems to me that you are saying that the Buddhadhamma consists of the Buddha's report on what he found to be the nature of things plus the instruction to study that report and think about it. That is not what the Buddhadhamma is understood to be anywhere else, as far as I know, and as far as I'm concerned reading the Sutta Pitaka makes it crystal clear that that is not the Dhamma. That perspective turns the Dhamma into a species of gnani (contemplative) yoga, IMO. --------- N: We have to listen, develop understanding and apply the Dhamma in daily life. Developing all the perfections, that is the practice, the application of the teachings. The citta is the source of our thoughts, action and speech which may be kusala or akusala, which may motivate the right Path or the wrong Path. It is most important to get to know our different cittas, and this begins with listening and thorough consideration of what the Buddha said. When I first came into contact with the Dhamma I found it most revealing what he taught about our different cittas. This had not occurred to me before. I immediately was attracted to the Abhidhamma since here cittas are taught in detail. We can only really know our cittas when we learn to be aware of the citta occurring at this moment. "We" cannot do it, but, the mental factors of sati and sampaja~n~na are indispensable to consider the citta at this moment. I say, at this moment, thus, there is no ‘loss o presentness’. As I quoted: We should consider more deeply the > meaning of sati-sampajañña. When akusala dhamma arises, sati- > sampajañña may consider the Dhamma and realize the disadvantage of > the continuation of akusala. Howard, you say something similar in your post to Nitesh, dropping akusala like a hot coal. You say: I would stress most of all the factor of understanding that arises because one has listened and considered the Dhamma. And also, the dropping may occur or may not, depending on conditions. Understanding conditions helps us not to think of a self who drops akusala. Understanding of realities, including the cittas that arise, should accompany our conduct and speech. If not there is no way to know whether action and speech are motivated by akusala citta (even some subtle clinging) or kusala citta. ------ H: quotes: When, for example, akusala citta with anger > arises and sati-sampajaññå can be aware of its characteristic, we //3// can > see whether there is effort for giving up anger; if one continues > being angry it means that akusala viriya is still strong. When kusala > viriya has been further developed and awareness can arise, there are > conditions for the decrease of displeasure and for mettå. Thus, > instead of anger which is an impure dhamma there can immediately be a > change to kusala dhamma, dhamma which is pure. > When dosa arises, we have displeasure, but sati sampajañña can arise > and be aware of its characteristic and then we can see the benefit of > sati-sampajañña. If someone has //4/ LISTENED to the Dhamma and he is not > inert but immediately //5/ GIVES UP akusala, kusala viriya performs its > function at that moment. > --------- H: In (3) you point out that if mindfulness and wisdom have developed, one can then see whether or not energy is present for giving up anger. Again, why *should* the wisdom have arisen? Only from listening and contemplating? ------- N: Yes, how else could one understand the citta arising at the present moment? We have to listen to the Buddha, and that with confidence. We have to hear the teachings in order to apply them. -------- H: Moreover, what if one *does* see that the requisite viriya is in place? Then what? Should not that knowing be taken advantage by willfully cutting off akusala, since such action is possible at that time? ------ N: This is an important question, who is cutting off? Only pa~n~naa can. Pa~n~naa together with all the other perfections should be developed in order that citta in the future, conditioned by the accumulation of each of the perfections now, will reach the further shore. ------- H: The Buddha urged such cutting off as one of the four right endeavors. Why bother urging it? And how is one to follow that instruction? Knowing alone isn't sufficient. Action is required. -------- N: I understand your way of thinking: what can one do? Citta and cetasikas do. They are not agents or selves. Right effort arises because of the proper condiitons, it is a cetasika, but it is so ephemeral, it has fallen away before one can think of ‘doing’ something. The notion of nimitta is very helpful, dhammas arise and fall away so quickly. We cannot get hold of them, but we experience their nimittas. These have different characteristics that can be known. Understanding *can* be developed. Action is required, you say. Cittas must be known so that it is kusala action, with understanding. Sati-sampaja~n~na knows when the citta is kusala. I like to return all the time to the source of our actions, to the citta at this moment. Viriya, energy, arises with many cittas, though not with every citta. It arises with akusala citta and with kusala citta and performs its function. It supports the citta. Another quote from the Perfection of energy: < Sometimes we may be lax and too lazy to perform kusala, we may think that its performing is troublesome, that we are too tired, or that it is time consuming. At such moments we are overcome by akusala and hence kusala cannot arise. If we know that it is difficult for us to perform kusala because we are inert and lazy, we should at this very moment, immediately, apply ourselves with diligence to kusala. Life is extremely short, as it lasts just for one moment of citta and this moment may be kusala citta or akusala citta, depending on conditions. Thus, we should not give in to laziness with regard to our task of performing kusala. If we are all the time inert and lazy, it is evident that the perfection of energy is lacking and that, therefore, there are no conditions for the elimination of akusala. The only way to eliminate akusala is to be diligent and energetic in the performing of all kinds of kusala as far as we are able to.> This should go to the very bone! When we understand that life is short, there can be a sense of urgency not to delay kusala. ****** Nina. #66276 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience jwromeijn Hallo Sarah, Larry, all I hope it's permitted to make some remarks on this 'experience and rupa' theme. L: Perhaps we could try to re-focus a little bit. The main question is, is rupa an experience or not? S: Rupa is never an experience, it is the dhamma which is only ever experienced. J:I'm afraid, sarah, you base yourself on a western matter-mind dichotomy when talking about nama and rupa. The Buddha did not talk on matter as such, that had no soteriological meaning, he talked about experienced material qualities. To say is short: rupa (a dhamma) IS the experienced material quality. L: If rupa is an experience, what do we need consciousness for? S: If rupas were the whole experience, life would exist in rocks and computers. But it doesn't! J: That is a good question, Larry; in my words: is there a difference between an experienced material quality AND the consciousness of that experience ? To me the answer is in a kind of 'theory of theories': we (human beings) don't know anything about the reality as such, all we can do (and a baby starts with that process) is making a theory of some aspects of the experienced reality, and we give that theory a name. There are conventional theories and an ultimate theory, and 'rupa' is a part of the ultimate theory. The answer of Srah is not correct, I think: a human being can experience (the rupa of) a rock or computer, that's something different as 'being' a rock or computer, in fact there is no being! We can have a theory of what a computer 'is'; but an ant walking on and in my computer has a total different theory of it than I have. Metta Joop #66277 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:32 am Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka ken_aitch Hi Sarah, Thanks for trying again: ------------- S: > You asked: " When a person is vision-impaired, does eye-consciousness occur in a weakened form, or does it occur in the usual form but less frequently?": The points I was trying to make (in a clumsy way) were: 1. That I don't consider either alternative to be quite right, certainly not the latter one. Instead there are several other factors to consider, especially the sensitivity of the eye-base, I'd say. As we know, in the sensuous realm, all six bases (vatthus) arise and fall away except for those blind or deaf from conception. -------------- When you say 'as we know' I get the feeling this has already been thoroughly discussed at DSG. Sorry if I have being inattentive, but why, in this case, do you distinguish between those who are blind from conception and those who become blind later? --------------------------- S: > (In the rupa-brahma realm, there are no bases for smelling, tasting and body-consciousness, these said to be coarser than those bases for seeing and hearing. I've read that the physical components of the organs exist there, but not the sensitivity to serve as vatthus.) 2. So, in the 'vision-impaired', the eye-base is there, but the eye-sensitivity or vatthu which has to act as prenascence and support condition for seeing consciousness throughout life may be weakened, thus affecting the nature of the consciousness. Whether we can refer to it as 'weakened', I'm not sure. ----------------------------- I think I understand, which, by the way, reinforces my appreciation for these discussions. They make the Dhamma (gradually) clearer. --------------------------------------- S: > 3. The seeing will also be affected by the nature of the visible object appearing (how bright or dim, for example) and the 'age' of the visible object when the consciousness arises. We had a long discussion before with Htoo about when objects are classified as being 'clear, very clear, faint and very faint' according to whether javana and tadarammana cittas arise and so on. If there are no javana cittas arising, for example, the object is said to be very faint - it is not experienced by lobha or dosa, for a start. ----------------------------------------- Ah, so I was right; we have discussed this before! I can't say I understand the above point, but leave it there for the moment. There are probably other things I need to understand first. --------------------------------------------------- S: > So when we refer to bad eyesight, I think all these factors are relevant. Conventionally, we say we can refer to the poor eyesight or weakened eye-consciousness, but nothing is quite so simple from an Abhidhamma perspective.:-) ----------------------------------------------------- In my blissful, worldling ignorance I am in no hurry. And that might be just as well - baby steps are about my limit. :-) ---------------------------------------- S: >> Here's a quote for Howard too (relating to other threads, I think) from Sammohavinodani transl S: > 4. On the present discussion here, however, I thought the quote was also of some relevance in stressing the nature of seeing consciousness as being affected by a)kamma, b)visible object and c)eye-sensitivity. I didn't find any quote, however, as referring to strong or weak eye consciousness as such, though. (I'll also raise this in Bkk). 5. As far as awareness and insight go, of course it's not of issue. Seeing consciousness has the same characteristic of such regardless of the individual quality and can be known when it's the object of awareness just as it is. Does this still miss the mark? -------------------------- I am sure it is spot on the mark, thank you. -------------------------------- <. . .> S: > p.s. Good news about the broadband - hope you get the technical hitches sorted out. <. . .> -------------------------------- Sorting them out - plus my renewed interest in computer programming - has just about worn my eyes out. As I was saying in my previous post, this has resulted in some very fuzzy thinking - seemingly as an aversion reaction to the mere sight of a computer screen. You'll remember I have had this trouble before. According to my optometrist, my optic nerves show the classic signs of glaucoma. But regular checks over the last four or five years have shown no deterioration (touch wood). :-) Ken H #66278 From: "matheesha" Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:56 am Subject: Re: Dinesh from Doha! matheesha333 Hi Sarah, The talk was at the London Buddhist Vihar -at Chiswick. Yes, it went well. I tried to put it in as simple language as possible and use similies to explain what needs to be experienced directly. I already had some practice after the talk at the interfaith group. I must thank everyone on this group for their contributions to the talk. I only wanted the speech to perhaps strengthen their faith in the concept of anatta and get a little bit of understanding on how it could be true. It was recieved well. People had been inquiring after copies of it's recordings so I think people appreciated it. There were the usual questions of 'who attains' 'if there is no self, who experiences the effects of kamma' 'who is reborn' etc. I'm hoping to start a meditation/dhamma class in the Thames Buddhist Vihar in Selsdon. I did a fairly lengthy meditation/dhamma session for their Sangamitta day. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for that. Hope things are fine with you, take care Matheesha ps-welcome Dinesh! #66279 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 4:43 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd As regards abstinence from slandering, rude speech and idle talk, these are not among the five precepts for laypeople. However, engaging in these kinds of speech is akusala whereas abstaining from them is kusala kamma. We are inclined to be heedless with regard to abstinence from wrong speech. When others speak in an unpleasant way about people we may find it hard not to join in the conversation. Or we may find abstinence of useless, idle talk a way of morality which is hard to observe. So long as one is not an arahat there are still opportunities for speaking with akusala citta. In the development of wholesomeness one has to be farsighted. We should realize that what we accumulate today, wholesomeness or unwholesomeness, can have its effects in the future, even in future lives. We can become more clever in evaluating the circumstances we are in, and the friends we have: we will be able to judge whether surroundings and friends are favourable for the development of wholesomeness or not. We will know what kind of speech should be avoided, what kind of speech is helpful. Since we will be engaged in conversation with others anyway we should learn how we can turn the conversation into an opportunity for wholesomeness. We may remember the way of generosity which is appreciation of other people’s kusala while we speak. Or when the conversation tends to be idle talk about pleasant objects, such as good food, nice weather or journeys, there is an opportunity for sympathetic joy. We can rejoice in other people’s good fortune of receiving pleasant objects. We should, however, know when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta. Otherwise we may erroneously think that there is the sobhana cetasika of sympathetic joy when there is actually attachment. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66281 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] release of mind jonoabb Hi Mateesha Thanks for posting this sutta. For those who have the Nanamoli/Bodhi anthology from AN ('Numerical Discourses of the Buddha'), it is sutta No. 98 ('Five Bases of Liberation'). There are 2 footnotes giving quotes from the commentary to AN as follows: Note to the first base of liberation: "As he listens to the Dhamma he comes to know the jhaanas, insight, the paths and fruits whenever they come up (in the course of instruction). When he knows them, rapture arises, and on account of that rapture he does not allow himself to backslide midway; rather, he brings his meditation subject up to the level of access concentration, develops insight, and attains arahantship. With reference to this it is said, 'the mind becomes concentrated'." Note to the fifth base of liberation: “‘Object of concentration’ (samaadhi-nimitta) refers to concentration upon a certain object among the thirty-eight objects of concentration.” Jon #66282 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vipallaasas and sotaapanna jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: > And I rest in my general remark: let's not talk abou sotapanna at all > (till we are one). > I agree there's no use talking about what it's like to be a sotapanna if it's just idle speculation or wishful thinking. But there are many suttas that mention the sotapanna in one context or another, and I don't think we should avoid discussing these. Besides, there are useful things to be known that involve the stages of enlightenment, for example, that wrong view is eradicated by the sotapanna, but attachment to sensuous objects only by the anagami, and conceit only by the arahant. So I don't think there should be any rule. Jon #66283 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questioning your response, practice. no. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/18/06 3:02:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > ------ > H: If your view > of the Dhamma is not just that of a report of the facts plus the > instruction to > study the report, I hope that you will make very clear how it differs > from > that. > ---------- > N: I try! Perhaps I take more than one post to avoid making a post > too long. > > The zest of you questions: are listening and intellectual > understanding all there is to the application of the Dhamma? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, Nina, that is exactly the gist of my questions. It is what I am pursuing. ------------------------------------------ > The zest of my answer: listening is the most important condition for > the development of understanding. The Dhamma one hears must be > applied in daily life, in our relationship with others. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: How exactly do you (and Khun Sujin) understand how it is to be applied? Also, is there not application that is other than our relationship with others? Is not at least an ongoing practice of mindfulness and guarding the senses an application to be intentionally engaged in? More precisely, should not the intention to be mindful kept at the forefront of ones mind and effort exerted in that direction? Also, what about cultivating the ability to enter, even master, the jhanas? Is that part of application of the Dhamma? ------------------------------------------ For this > > purpose the development of all the perfections is indispensable. The > perfections are a guideline for all aspects of daily life. -------------------------------------------- Howard: What are the means of cultivating the perfections? Do you again see that as coming out of nothing but studying and contemplating "the report"? -------------------------------------------- > We had a similar discussion before, but now I want to illustrate what > I said above more with quotes from Kh. Sujin’s Perfections. > --------- > Quote: However, if someone has //1// LISTENED to the Dhamma and he > develops > >satipatthÃ¥na, sati-sampajañña can arise and be aware of akusala when > >he is irritated or displeased. > ------- > H: In (1) and (4) you speak of listening to the Dhamma. You never > seem to > give any condition other than that (intentional) activity of > listening as a > basis for cultivating sati-sampajañña, not even intentionally paying > attention > to what is happening in the moment and avoiding the loss of > "presentness" > (i.e.avoiding getting lost in thought or sloth and torpor). To me, that > restriction makes Dhamma practice a one-trick pony. Of course, > sometimes you do add on > considering or contemplating meaning, as in (2), but that just > consists of > thinking. That seems to be about it. Thus it seems to me that you are > saying that the Buddhadhamma consists of the Buddha's report on what > he found to be the nature of things plus the instruction to study > that report and think about it. That is not what the Buddhadhamma is > understood to be anywhere else, as far as I know, and as far as I'm > concerned reading the Sutta Pitaka makes it crystal clear that that > is not the Dhamma. That perspective turns the Dhamma into a species > of gnani (contemplative) yoga, IMO. > --------- > N: We have to listen, develop understanding and apply the Dhamma in > daily life. Developing all the perfections, that is the practice, > the application of the teachings. ----------------------------------------- Howard: What intentional, conventional actions is one to engage in, as you see it, to develop the perfections? If none, then there is no practice - just good or bad luck. ----------------------------------------- > The citta is the source of our thoughts, action and speech which may > be kusala or akusala, which may motivate the right Path or the wrong > Path. It is most important to get to know our different cittas, and > this begins with listening and thorough consideration of what the > Buddha said. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Okay, you rightfully say practice begins with listening. But is that just listening to the report of the nature of things, or does it also consist in listening about conventional actions to take to enable the direct "seeing" of that nature oneself? Also, if it *begins* with listening, how should that listening be applied? A beginning is just that. Again, the gist: In your opinion, did the Buddha teach as practice ONLY listening and considering? So far, I don't see you as asserting anything other than this. ------------------------------------------- > When I first came into contact with the Dhamma I found it most > revealing what he taught about our different cittas. This had not > occurred to me before. I immediately was attracted to the Abhidhamma > since here cittas are taught in detail. > We can only really know our cittas when we learn to be aware of the > citta occurring at this moment. "We" cannot do it, but, the mental > factors of sati and sampaja~n~na are indispensable to consider the > citta at this moment. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Why don't we get that non-issue out of the way immediately? There is no "we" to literally do anything. There are just events that occur and conditions that arise. They do so because, at the conventional level, "we" act. Being aware of nama and rupa, "aware" in the sense of knowing with wisdom, occurs due to specific condtions, and *those* conditions arise as part and parcel of the conventional actions of acting morally, maintaining mindful attention, guarding the senses, and calming and clearing the mind. We may not (at first) see the individual conditions directly, but we do see the macroscopic activities that they constitute, UNLESS we don't engage in those activites because we simply wait for useful conditions to arise on their own - "somehow". But they will NOT arise unless the aforementioned macroscopic activiities occur. Not engaging in the conventional actions urged for 45 years by the Buddha is exactly avoiding the means for requisite conditions to occur. ------------------------------------------------- > I say, at this moment, thus, there is no ‘loss o presentness’. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: At *what* moment? Are you saying that when mindfulness and clear comprehension are present, there is no loss of presentness? Well, of course! When something is present it is present. The point is: Why *should* mindfulness and clear comprehension become present? Again, is your answer "ONLY due to having listened and considered"? ------------------------------------------------ > > As I quoted: > We should consider more deeply the > >meaning of sati-sampajañña. When akusala dhamma arises, sati- > >sampajañña may consider the Dhamma and realize the disadvantage of > >the continuation of akusala. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Or it may *not* so consider it. What makes the difference? Why *should* sati-sampajañña arise? Nina, you are not answering my direct question. Is the answer "Only because of having listend to the report and thought about it," or do you consider that something more was taught by the Buddha in the way of conventional action? --------------------------------------------------- > Howard, you say something similar in your post to Nitesh, dropping > akusala like a hot coal. You say: examination of dhammas with an increasingly calm and clear mind lays > bare the nature of dhammas and leads to distaste for the harmful ones > and a natural, automatic relinquishment of them.> > I would stress most of all the factor of understanding that arises > because one has listened and considered the Dhamma. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: No. It seems to me that you stress ONLY having listened and considered. If there is more, why not say so? If there is not, why not say so? ---------------------------------------- And also, the > > dropping may occur or may not, depending on conditions. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Everything occurs in dependence on conditions. Repeating this doesn't address the issue. ----------------------------------------- Understanding > > conditions helps us not to think of a self who drops akusala. ----------------------------------------- Howard: You are praising studying and considering the Buddha's report of "the facts on the ground". Nobody denies that these deserve praise. They do, but you are side-stepping the issue at hand, Nina. ------------------------------------------ > Understanding of realities, including the cittas that arise, should > accompany our conduct and speech. If not there is no way to know > whether action and speech are motivated by akusala citta (even some > subtle clinging) or kusala citta. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, Nina, I don't see you recommending anything other than studying and thinking about the report. -------------------------------------------- > ------ > H: quotes: When, for example, akusala citta with anger > >arises and sati-sampajaññå can be aware of its characteristic, > we //3// can > >see whether there is effort for giving up anger; if one continues > >being angry it means that akusala viriya is still strong. When kusala > >viriya has been further developed and awareness can arise, there are > >conditions for the decrease of displeasure and for mettÃ¥. Thus, > >instead of anger which is an impure dhamma there can immediately be a > >change to kusala dhamma, dhamma which is pure. > >When dosa arises, we have displeasure, but sati sampajañña can arise > >and be aware of its characteristic and then we can see the benefit of > >sati-sampajañña. > If someone has //4/ LISTENED to the Dhamma and he is not > >inert but immediately //5/ GIVES UP akusala, kusala viriya > performs its > >function at that moment. > > > --------- ----------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, you are just repeating what you gave before. ----------------------------------------- > H: In (3) you point out that if mindfulness and wisdom have developed, > one can then see whether or not energy is present for giving up > anger. Again, > why *should* the wisdom have arisen? Only from listening and > contemplating? > ------- > N: Yes, how else could one understand the citta arising at the > present moment? We have to listen to the Buddha, and that with > confidence. We have to hear the teachings in order to apply them. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that listening and contemplating is needed. But what I asked is whether wisdom arises ONLY from listening and contemplating!! You have answed "Yes, how else could one understand the citta arising at the present moment?" Is that, then, an affirmative reply by you? ALL that is required is listening and contemplating? Is that what you are asserting? Will you commit to this? Or is there more? Can this question not be settled here and now? ----------------------------------------- > -------- > H: Moreover, what if one *does* see that the requisite viriya is in > place? Then what? > Should not that knowing be taken advantage by willfully cutting off > akusala, > since such action is possible at that time? > ------ > N: This is an important question, who is cutting off? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I'm speaking of conventional action, the reality of which is a multitude of phenomena. I am NOT speaking of an actor, I do NOT assume an actor, and raising that non-issue is a sparring feint. "Cutting off" no more requires an actor than do the very conventional actions of studying and considering. ----------------------------------------- Only pa~n~naa > > can. Pa~n~naa together with all the other perfections should be > developed in order that citta in the future, conditioned by the > accumulation of each of the perfections now, will reach the further > shore. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Nina, this is a return to the litany to avoid the issue. Please, please, be up-front on this issue, Nina: Does Khun Sujin teach that the only conventional actions constituting the practice are studying and contemplating? ------------------------------------------ > ------- > H: The Buddha urged such cutting off > as one of the four right endeavors. Why bother urging it? And how is > one to > follow that instruction? Knowing alone isn't sufficient. Action is > required. > -------- > N: I understand your way of thinking: what can one do? Citta and > cetasikas do. They are not agents or selves. Right effort arises > because of the proper condiitons, it is a cetasika, but it is so > ephemeral, it has fallen away before one can think of ‘doing’ something. -------------------------------------- Howard: Again, the is a side-stepping. It gives the appearance of an answer whan there is no answer. ------------------------------------- > The notion of nimitta is very helpful, dhammas arise and fall away so > quickly. We cannot get hold of them, but we experience their > nimittas. These have different characteristics that can be known. > Understanding *can* be developed. ----------------------------------- Howard: HOW??????? By studying and considering? Or by additiuonal means? ------------------------------------ > Action is required, you say. Cittas must be known so that it is > kusala action, with understanding. Sati-sampaja~n~na knows when the > citta is kusala. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Around and around and around! Why do mindfulness and clear comprehension arise? ------------------------------------- I like to return all the time to the source of our > > actions, to the citta at this moment. Viriya, energy, arises with > many cittas, though not with every citta. It arises with akusala > citta and with kusala citta and performs its function. It supports > the citta. -------------------------------------- Howard: Is there any answer being given here, Nina? I'm sorry, but I don't see one. ------------------------------------- > Another quote from the Perfection of energy: > think that its performing is troublesome, that we are too tired, or > that it is time consuming. At such moments we are overcome by akusala > and hence kusala cannot arise. If we know that it is difficult for us > to perform kusala because we are inert and lazy, we should at this > very moment, immediately, apply ourselves with diligence to kusala. -------------------------------------- Howard: We *should*? Is that a choice that can be made? Who is this "we" who should apply himself/herself? Is it time to start repeating the litany that there is no self to do anything? What exactly are you asserting here, Nina? Is it that conventional, volitional efforts *can* be made and *should* be? -------------------------------------- > Life is extremely short, as it lasts just for one moment of citta and > this moment may be kusala citta or akusala citta, depending on > conditions. Thus, we should not give in to laziness with regard to > our task of performing kusala. If we are all the time inert and lazy, > it is evident that the perfection of energy is lacking and that, > therefore, there are no conditions for the elimination of akusala. > The only way to eliminate akusala is to be diligent and energetic in > the performing of all kinds of kusala as far as we are able to.> ---------------------------------------- Howard: The foregoing are good and important words, IMO. ----------------------------------------- > This should go to the very bone! When we understand that life is > short, there can be a sense of urgency not to delay kusala. > > ****** > Nina. > ===================== With metta, Howard #66284 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:26 am Subject: Questioning your response, no 2. nilovg Hi Howard, I read your answer and will think about it. First now my second installment that will be followed by a third one. These may perhaps answer some of your questions, but I am not sure. ------------ H quotes: > When a certain type of akusala arises and it is followed by //6// sati- > sampajañña, kusala viriya can perform its task of refraining from > anger. This kind of viriya is different from thinking that one should > refrain from anger. It arises at the moment of sati- sampajañña, when > energy or effort refrains from anger, and it is known that mettå is > the opposite of anger. This is effort to forgive, effort for mettå. > At such a moment we can remember that everybody, including ourselves, > makes mistakes. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: In (6), you speak of sati-sampajañña arising subsequent to an akusala state. Why should it arise? What conditions it? Only having previously listened and considered? -------- N: Again: yes! We should listen with confidence in the Dhamma and consider what we hear. Then sati and pa~n~naa can develop and perform their functions. There is no other way. Another quote: < If someone has already some understanding of the development of satipaììhåna, he can be aware of the reality which appears. Whatever kind of akusala arises, sati can be aware immediately of its characteristic. When paññå understands the way to know and study the characteristics of realities, it is of a higher level. After we have studied the Anumana Sutta, how often in a day do we examine ourselves? For someone who habitually develops satipatthåna, sati-sampajañña can immediately be aware when akusala citta arises, and he does not need to wait until it is time to examine himself. This is the beginning of the development of satipaììhåna, even if one does not know yet realities as nåma and rúpa which are non-self. It is already a degree of sati-sampajañña when the characteristic of akusala dhamma is known as it naturally appears. > I find this very encouraging. We do not know yet precisely akusala as a kind of nama, but sati-sampajañña can begin to be aware also of akusala when it appears. ---------- H quotes: //7// Therefore, we should not have anger or displeasure on > > account of someone else or of dhammas which arise and then fall away. > However, feeling and remembrance, saññå, are conditions for being > slow and inert in letting go of one’s thoughts about circumstances > and events and in that case akusala dhammas have the opportunity to > arise.> H: In (7), you basically say that anger may or may not arise depending on prior kusala or akusala conditions, which, of course, is quite true. But why should prior kusala conditions have arisen, and why should akusala conditions fail to have arisen? Do you maintain that the Buddha didn't urge any conventional volitional actions except for studying and thinking about his report of "facts on the ground"? ------ N: As to the quote above: this happens in our life. Often we keep on thinking about what happened overwhelmed as we are by feelings. We are holding on to the past or long for the future, maybe wishing for result of our practice, instead of attending to the present moment. We can learn from the present moment and if is there some amount of understanding, stemming from listening to the Dhamma understanding accumulates. We should not underestimate the accumulation of even a tiny amount of understanding. You say: and this seems the zest of your post. Action is motivated by citta. What type of citta arises, and is it accompanied by understanding? Conventional volitional activity is a term I would avoid. I know what you mean, but in reality volition, here kusala cetanaa, is a cetasika which arises when there are the proper conditions for it, and it falls away immediately. There is no possessor of it. The Buddha exhorted us to apply right effort and his words can be a condition for its arising. ---------- H: The Buddha provided a program of activities that involve doing no harm, doing good, and purifying the mind. It was a detailed program that consisted of far more than studying and considering the Buddha's reporting of the way things are. In my opinion, we may listen to and consider the four noble truths, the tilakkhana, and dependent origination from now forward without ever making any significant progress toward awakening, and the Buddha will have largely wasted the last 45 years of his final lifetime. --------------- N: < doing no harm, doing good, and purifying the mind.> How can this be done without knowing anything about the cittas that motivate action and speech? Otherwise we do not even know what is akusala that should be avoided, what is kusala that should be developed, what is purifying the mind from defilements. Such a program is impossible without right understanding of our cittas. Right understanding develops by listening and considering what we hear, and by verifying in daily life the truth of the Dhamma. You say: We cannot measure how much progress there is each day, remember the holding of the knife handle. Patience is praised very much by the Buddha. Patience is actually the cetasika viriya, energy or effort. It is another aspect. It concerns very much our practice. All the perfections concern practice. ****** (to be continued) Nina. #66285 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questioning your response, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/18/06 10:34:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I read your answer and will think about it. First now my second > installment that will be followed by a third one. These may perhaps > answer some of your questions, but I am not sure. > ------------ > H quotes: > >When a certain type of akusala arises and it is followed by //6// > sati- > >sampajañña, kusala viriya can perform its task of refraining from > >anger. This kind of viriya is different from thinking that one should > >refrain from anger. It arises at the moment of sati- sampajañña, when > >energy or effort refrains from anger, and it is known that mettÃ¥ is > >the opposite of anger. This is effort to forgive, effort for mettÃ¥. > >At such a moment we can remember that everybody, including ourselves, > >makes mistakes. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > In (6), you speak of sati-sampajañña arising subsequent to an akusala > state. Why should it arise? What conditions it? Only having previously > listened and considered? > -------- > N: Again: yes! We should listen with confidence in the Dhamma and > consider what we hear. Then sati and pa~n~naa can develop and perform > their functions. There is no other way. --------------------------------------- Howard: To the best of my knowledge, the Buddha never said that. The Buddha never said that the only way is that of listening and considering. What comes close to being the Buddha's "only way" is investigating [directly examining - not thinking about] the four foundations of mindfulness. What he did say was that what leads to the enlightenment factors is cultivation of sila and samadhi [right effort, mindfulness, and concentration], accomplishing doing no harm, doing good, and purifying the mind. What leads to the enlightenemnt factors is ongoing attention to what is arising and ceasing, guarding the senses, and cultivating, attaining, and mastering the jhanas. Note, BTW, that a number of jhana factors are also enlightenment factors. Thus, jhana attainment does more than "merely" create tranquillity. And the jhanas, especially the 4th, serve as the ideal, though not sole, base from which investigation of dhammas is done. ------------------------------------------------------ > Another quote: > satipaììhÃ¥na, he can be aware of the reality which appears. Whatever > kind of akusala arises, sati can be aware immediately of its > characteristic. When paññå understands the way to know and study the > characteristics of realities, it is of a higher level. > After we have studied the Anumana Sutta, how often in a day do we > examine ourselves? For someone who habitually develops satipatthÃ¥na, > sati-sampajañña can immediately be aware when akusala citta arises, > and he does not need to wait until it is time to examine himself. > This is the beginning of the development of satipaììhÃ¥na, even if one > does not know yet realities as nÃ¥ma and rúpa which are non-self. It > is already a degree of sati-sampajañña when the characteristic of > akusala dhamma is known as it naturally appears. > > I find this very encouraging. We do not know yet precisely akusala as > a kind of nama, but sati-sampajañña can begin to be aware also of > akusala when it appears. > ---------- > H quotes: //7// Therefore, we should not have anger or displeasure on > > > >account of someone else or of dhammas which arise and then fall away. > >However, feeling and remembrance, saññå, are conditions for being > >slow and inert in letting go of one’s thoughts about circumstances > >and events and in that case akusala dhammas have the opportunity to > >arise.> > > H: In (7), you basically say that anger may or may not arise > depending on > prior kusala or akusala conditions, which, of course, is quite true. > But why > should prior kusala conditions have arisen, and why should akusala > conditions fail to have arisen? Do you maintain that the Buddha > didn't urge any > conventional volitional actions except for studying and thinking > about his report of "facts on the ground"? > ------ > N: As to the quote above: this happens in our life. Often we keep on > thinking about what happened overwhelmed as we are by feelings. We > are holding on to the past or long for the future, maybe wishing for > result of our practice, instead of attending to the present moment. > We can learn from the present moment and if is there some amount of > understanding, stemming from listening to the Dhamma understanding > accumulates. We should not underestimate the accumulation of even a > tiny amount of understanding. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I do not underestimate understanding. Wisdom is the sword that cuts away defilements. But you say that listening and contemplating is all that is required. As far as I'm concerned, that is not the teaching of the Buddha. --------------------------------------------- > You say: conventional volitional actions> and this seems the zest of your post. > Action is motivated by citta. What type of citta arises, and is it > accompanied by understanding? > Conventional volitional activity is a term I would avoid. I know what > you mean, but in reality volition, here kusala cetanaa, is a > cetasika which arises when there are the proper conditions for it, > and it falls away immediately. There is no possessor of it. > The Buddha exhorted us to apply right effort and his words can be a > condition for its arising. > ---------- > H: The Buddha provided a program of activities that involve doing no > harm, doing good, and purifying the mind. It was a detailed program > that consisted of far more than studying and considering the Buddha's > reporting of the way things are. In my opinion, we may listen to and > consider the four noble truths, the tilakkhana, and dependent > origination from now forward without ever making any significant > progress toward awakening, and the Buddha will have largely wasted > the last 45 years of his final lifetime. > --------------- > N: How can this > be done without knowing anything about the cittas that motivate > action and speech? > ------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, it is of some help. But nobody needs tables and lists to awaken to reality. What is needed is to do what the Buddha *said* to do, cultivating a mind that SEES! ------------------------------------- Otherwise we do not even know what is akusala that > > should be avoided, what is kusala that should be developed, what is > purifying the mind from defilements. > ------------------------------------ Howard: I consider that to be a gross overstatement. It is not just Buddhist scholars who know good from bad. Also, among learned Buddhist scholars are many who are mired in defilement despite their "knowledge". I do not believe that the people on this list learned good from bad by being Buddhists. It is rather much the other way around. ------------------------------------- Such a program is impossible > > without right understanding of our cittas. Right understanding > develops by listening and considering what we hear, and by verifying > in daily life the truth of the Dhamma. ------------------------------------- Howard: Well, Nina, at least you *have* pretty much answered my question: Studying the Buddha's report of how things are and contemplating that is the entirety of Dhamma practice according to Khun Sujin and you. That is what I thought was the case, but I had never seen it stated straight out. You still haven't quite so stated it, but you are very close. ----------------------------------------- > > You say: > We cannot measure how much progress there is each day, remember the > holding of the knife handle. Patience is praised very much by the > Buddha. Patience is actually the cetasika viriya, energy or effort. > It is another aspect. It concerns very much our practice. All the > perfections concern practice. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I can't make any sense of this, Nina. There is no practice of patience. There is just cultivation of (the tendency towards) it, and according to you, that, and all other kusala, comes about ONLY by studying and thinking. ------------------------------------------- > ****** > (to be continued) > > Nina. > ====================== With metta, Howard #66286 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questioning your response, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 12/18/06 2:03:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes: > What he did say was that what leads to the enlightenment factors is > cultivation of sila and samadhi [right effort, mindfulness, and concentration], > accomplishing doing no harm, doing good, and purifying the mind. -------------------------- Also, pa~n~na leads to further sila and samadhi, and yet further pa~n~na. It is a spiral development, ... -> sila -> samadhi -> pa~n~na -> sila -> ..., with all these growing in strength, depth, and breadth. =============== With metta, Howard #66287 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:26 am Subject: Questioning your responbse, no 3. nilovg Hi Howard, I wait a while answering all your previous questions. Now I want to give you more quotes from Kh Sujin's Perfections to clarify what I said about the practice. Please, would you read slowly, and listen to this texts, perhaps then you may find a clue to what I said before. Quotes: You see that the perfections concern practice with regard to our conduct and speech. We listen to the Dhamma and then apply it! The following quote shows that pa~n~naa is indispensable for the application and accumulation of the perfections. < There is a difference between a person with paññå and without it. As to the person with paññå, no matter what wrong someone else has done to him, this makes his patience grow firmer and more accomplished. As to the person who lacks paññå, the wrongs of someone else provoke an increase in impatience, the opposite of patience. Patience is needed with regard to our environment, in the different situations of daily life. Daily life can be a test for our patience and endurance.> N: without pa~n~naa we would not know that persons and events are not the real cause for contrarieties in life. The cause is within ourselves. Kamma produces result and our reactions may be kusala citta or akusala citta. The following quote emphasizes the practice, the application of the Dhamma: < Patience has many degrees. We need patience to listen to the Dhamma, to study and to consider it, in order to have right understanding of what is taught. We should not merely listen, we should also consider with wise attention what we have heard. The Dhamma is very subtle and deep and if we do not consider thoroughly what we have heard and studied, we can easily have confusion and wrong understanding, there may be conditions for wrong conduct and wrong practice. When patience with regard to listening to the Dhamma increases we shall see the benefit of all kinds of kusala and further develop it. This means that we shall have more understanding of the right cause that brings its effect accordingly. > As I quoted for Joop: < For someone who develops satipaììhåna in daily life so that paññå knows more thoroughly the characteristics of realities, the right conditions are present that lead to the result, namely, the realization of the four noble Truths. For him, the result will naturally occur and this is not difficult. However, the conditions leading to such a result are difficult to develop: one should gradually consider and study with awareness the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, as they appear through the sense-doors and the mind- door. This is a very gradual process, and viriya, energy, is necessary to be aware again and again, to be aware very often, since this is the only way for paññå to be able to penetrate the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. At this very moment realities are arising and falling away, but if we do not study with awareness and begin to understand the characteristics of nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas, it will not be possible to realize their arising and falling away. The cause which can bring such a result has to be developed time and again, life after life.> We should have great confidence that listening and considering the Dhamma bring their fruits. Sati-sampaja~n~na can arise no matter in what surroundings we are. It, not we, performs its task. Even being lost in thoughts, or distraction is an object worthy of awareness. We should not be disheartened that it takes a long time to reach the further shore. Viriya, which also means perseverance and courage, can perform its task. ******* Nina. #66288 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:33 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life, 155 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 21 Samatha We would like to have more wholesomeness in life, but often we are unable to do wholesome deeds, to speak in a wholesome way or to think wholesome thoughts. Our accumulated defilements hinder us in the performing of kusala. We learn from the Buddhist teachings that there are ``hindrances'' (nívaraùa), which are akusala cetasikas arising with akusala cittas. The hindrances arise time and again in daily life. They are: sensuous desire, in Påli: kåmacchandha ill-will, in Påli: vyåpåda torpor and languor, in Påli: thína and middha restlessness and worry, in Påli: uddhacca and kukkucca doubt, in Påli: vicikicchå Kåmacchandha or sensuous desire is the cetasika which is lobha (attachment). It is attachment to the objects we can experience through the sense-doors and the mind-door. We all have kåmacchandha in different forms and intensities. Because of economic progress and technical inventions there is more prosperity in life. One can afford more things which make life pleasant and comfortable. This, however, does not bring contentedness; on the contrary, we are not satisfied with what we have and we are forever looking for more enjoyment and happiness. There is kåmacchandha with our deeds, words and thoughts. Even when we think that we are doing good deeds and helping others, kåmacchandha can arise. Kåmacchandha makes us restless and unhappy. Vyåpåda or ill-will is the cetasika which is dosa. Vyåpåda can trouble us many times a day; we feel irritated about other people or about things which happen in life. Vyåpåda prevents us from kusala. When there is vyåpåda we cannot have loving kindness and compassion for other people. Thína and middha are translated as ``torpor'' and ``languor'', or as ``sloth'' and ``torpor''. Thína and middha cause us to have lack of energy for kusala. The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 167) states concerning thína and middha: ... Herein, stiffness (thína) has the characteristic of lack of driving power. Its function is to remove energy. It is manifested as subsiding. Torpor (middha) has the characteristic of unwieldiness. Its function is to smother. It is manifested as laziness, or it is manifested as nodding and sleep. The proximate cause of both is unwise attention to boredom, sloth, and so on. Don't we all have moments in a day when there is laziness and lack of energy to perform kusala? When, for example, we are listening to the preaching of Dhamma or reading the scriptures, there are opportunities for kusala cittas. Instead, we may feel bored and we lack energy for kusala. It may happen that we see someone else who needs our help, but we are lazy and do not move. Time and again we are hindered by thína and middha. Thína and middha make the mind unwieldy. ****** Nina. #66289 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:36 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana III, 8 nilovg Dear friends, We should be grateful to the Buddha for teaching us about all realities which naturally appear in daily life. Thus we are able to test the truth of what he taught. He taught that each reality arises because of its own conditions. For example, if there were no eyesense and visible object, seeing-consciousness could not arise. Eyesense and visible object are necessary conditions for seeing. The eyesense is the rúpa which is the physical base or place of origin for seeing- consciousness. Seeing arises at that base. Hearing-consciousness arises at the ear-base and each of the other sense-cognitions have their corresponding base. The rúpas which are bases (vatthus) arise and fall away, they do not last. The base for body-consciousness can be at any point of the body, inside or on the outside. When we think of "body sensitivity" we still have an idea that the body itself can experience something. The bodysense is the base for body- consciousness and also for the accompanying bodily feeling which can be painful or pleasant. We dislike pain and we attach great importance to bodily wellbeing. When we know what exactly the bodysense is it will help us to have less confusion about nåma and rúpa. The word body sensitivity can mislead us, the bodysense cannot experience anything. It can be a condition for the experience of tangibile object, of softness, hardness, heat, cold, motion or pressure. There can be impingement only by one of these rúpas on one extremely small point of the body at a time, and then body- consciousness experiences that object just for a moment. That point of the body is then the body-base and the body-door, but it falls away immediately. When a characteristic of rúpa is experienced, such as heat, impinging on the rúpa which is then body-base, nothing else can at that moment appear at other parts of the body. These parts are as it were completely numb, they cannot be the base for body- consciousness and bodily feeling. Neither can seeing or hearing arise at the same time, since only one citta arises at a time experiencing one object. My husband pushed one hand on his shoulder and one hand on his waist, and he thought that hardness could be experienced on two points at the same time. When we only think of the body as a whole and there is no awareness of one object at a time, we shall not know the truth. We are misled by saññå, the cetasika which is remembrance. When saññå remembers wrongly, not according to the truth, it seems that there is "my whole body". All the rúpas of the body arise and then fall away immediately, never to come back again. Since we hold on to memories of what has been experienced and has fallen away already we do not know the truth. There may be "attå saññå", wrong remembrance of self, and "niccå saññå", wrong remembrance of things as permanent. Do we still think that the whole hand can "feel" something? Then there is wrong saññå. Because of association of different experiences in the past, also in the recent past, we form up the idea of a hand which feels something. ******* Nina. #66290 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka nilovg Hi Sarah, I read something in T.A. about eyesense being sluggish, but no time now to look it up. Nina Op 18-dec-2006, om 11:32 heeft ken_aitch het volgende geschreven: > I didn't find any quote, however, as referring to > strong or weak eye consciousness as such, though. (I'll also raise > this in Bkk). #66291 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questioning your responbse, no 3. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - > > You see that the perfections concern practice with regard to our > conduct and speech. We listen to the Dhamma and then apply it! -------------------------------------- Howard: HOW do we apply it? You quoted Khun sujin saying that "we should be patient and tolerant." How do we just "be" patient and tolerant. Can we be patient at will? What happened to "no control"? Will we be patient merely because we have read that patience is a virtue? While I readily agree that prior learning may well come to mind as a useful reminder when triggered by events, I don't believe that mere hearing and considering is sufficent condition for patience to arise. I believe that a practice of ongoing mindfulness, introspection, and a regular guarding of the mind are needed, and also that a base of equanimity and tranquillity of some reasonable degree, is required. The base of equanimity is established in part by contemplation of truth, especially the Dhamma, but also by proper behavior (sila), and, most dramatically and of ultimate necessity, by jhanic attainment or at least an approach to it. ------------------------------------------------- > The following quote shows that pa~n~naa is indispensable for the > application and accumulation of the perfections. --------------------------------------------- Howard: 1) A quote by someone other than the Buddha may be suggestive of something, but doesn't *show* it. I happen to completely agree with the assertion made, but it is only an assertion, and not proof. 2) Pa~n~na is a far cry from mere knowledge. I only agree with the quote if 'pa~n~na' really means "pa~n~na", and not just book learning. -------------------------------------------- > > As to the person with paññå, no matter what wrong someone else has > done to him, this makes his patience grow firmer and more > accomplished. As to the person who lacks paññå, the wrongs of someone > else provoke an increase in impatience, the opposite of patience. > Patience is needed with regard to our environment, in the different > situations of daily life. Daily life can be a test for our patience > and endurance.> ---------------------------------------- Howard: All kusala is supported by wisdom. I find that indisputable. --------------------------------------- > > N: without pa~n~naa we would not know that persons and events are not > the real cause for contrarieties in life. The cause is within > ourselves. Kamma produces result and our reactions may be kusala > citta or akusala citta. > The following quote emphasizes the practice, the application of the > Dhamma: > > Dhamma, to study and to consider it, in order to have right > understanding of what is taught. We should not merely listen, we > should also consider with wise attention what we have heard. > ------------------------------------ Howard: What good is speaking of "should", when supposedly there is no control? ------------------------------------ The > > Dhamma is very subtle and deep and if we do not consider thoroughly > what we have heard and studied, we can easily have confusion and > wrong understanding, there may be conditions for wrong conduct and > wrong practice. ------------------------------------- Howard: You claim the only right practice is listening and considering. I think that such a restriction is incorrect, for that is not what the Buddha taught , and that a practice restricted to that is wrong practice, being grossly limited. ------------------------------------ > When patience with regard to listening to the Dhamma increases we > shall see the benefit of all kinds of kusala and further develop it. > This means that we shall have more understanding of the right cause > that brings its effect accordingly. > > > As I quoted for Joop: > > knows more thoroughly the characteristics of realities, the right > conditions are present that lead to the result, namely, the > realization of the four noble Truths. For him, the result will > naturally occur and this is not difficult. However, the conditions > leading to such a result are difficult to develop: one should > gradually consider and study with awareness the characteristics of > nåma and rúpa, as they appear through the sense-doors and the mind- > door. > -------------------------------- Howard: That is ambiguous. Does it mean to directly investigate and thereby come to know the characteristics of phenomena as those phenomena arise and cease, most particularly the tilakkhana, or does it mean to "consider and study" the Abhidhammic reportage as to the nature of dhammas? The first deals with realities, and the second with concept. There is a big difference. -------------------------------- This is a very gradual process, and viriya, energy, is > > necessary to be aware again and again, to be aware very often, since > this is the only way for paññå to be able to penetrate the arising > and falling away of nåma and rúpa. At this very moment realities are > arising and falling away, but if we do not study with awareness and > begin to understand the characteristics of nåma dhammas and rúpa > dhammas, it will not be possible to realize their arising and falling > away. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, that is amazingly ambiguous. Is it intentionally so? If not, then I would suggest disambiguating that writing. ------------------------------------------ The cause which can bring such a result has to be developed > > time and again, life after life.> > > We should have great confidence that listening and considering the > Dhamma bring their fruits. Sati-sampaja~n~na can arise no matter in > what surroundings we are. It, not we, performs its task. Even being > lost in thoughts, or distraction is an object worthy of awareness. We > should not be disheartened that it takes a long time to reach the > further shore. Viriya, which also means perseverance and courage, > can perform its task. > > > ******* > Nina. > ======================= With metta, Howard #66292 From: melek cilingir Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) melekcilingir dear sarah, "We are inclined to be heedless with regard to abstinence from wrong speech. When others speak in an unpleasant way about people we may find it hard not to join in the conversation. ... Since we will be engaged in conversation with others anyway we should learn how we can turn the conversation into an opportunity for wholesomeness. " thank you for this. i was about to say something about james' post including insulting words about goenka. i should thank him for giving those links which can be helpful for us to understand his point. to nitesh, it is really great to hear that you are meditating well. keep meditating so long as you feel it is beneficial for you. i understand you are confused, i suggest you to contact an assistant teacher if you have any question regarding the technique. with metta melek <....> #66293 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Could you clarify? S: "Rupa is never an experience, it is the dhamma which is only ever experienced." L: "...can we agree that rupa is not an experience? ...." S: "Simply put, the visible object has to impinge on the eye-base (sensitive matter)and eye-consciousness (resulting from kamma) has to arise also immediately, otherwise visible object data cannot appear and there is no 'visual experience'. This is really the meaning of 'ayatana', the coming together of these different elements at the same moment, like a perfectly co-ordinated orchestra, for the experience to take place. So we see these various 'instruments' are all finely 'tuned' and co-ordinated and also include the essential, 'universal' mental factors - contact, attention, concentration, life-faculty, feeling, perception and intention. We see that these ayatanas or elements arise, perform their functions and fall away by conditions. They are not agents or selves, but anatta." L: I'm more interested in what experience is in itself. If it is a three part combination then experience is asabhava (no self nature). This is what the madhyamikas say. Is that your view? If so, then experience must be non-arising because whatever is asabhava does not arise. A simpler view might be that experience is only consciousness and consciousness is a reflection of the object. As a reflection an object of consciousness is an experience. Objects aren't known directly in the sense of _being_ experience. And sense organs (the six doors) are only known inferentially. Inference is valid insight knowledge if it is based on experience and faultless reason, imo. One experience (consciousness) arises after another due to conditioning. Visible data is one experience; feeling is one experience; desire is one experience; wisdom (panna) is one experience. All these experiences are consciousnesses. The experience that we call 'visible data' is actually the reflection of visible data in eye consciousness. Because object and consciousness are mediated by sense door, any fault with the sense door affects consciousness and hence affects the accuracy of experience as reflection of reality. This is before misunderstanding (ditthi) even arises. This phenomenon affects kamma result. If I see a pretty girl, that's good kamma result. If I take my glasses off, all I see is a blur. That's bad kamma result. Good, bad, good, bad. In this case, it's simply a matter of glasses. Larry #66294 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience lbidd2 Hi Joop, J: "a human being can experience (the rupa of) a rock or computer, that's something different as 'being' a rock or computer, in fact there is no being! We can have a theory of what a computer 'is'; but an ant walking on and in my computer has a total different theory of it than I have." L: I would say being is reality, but reality has many facets. Experience is a reality and the physical universe is a reality. Maybe there are other realities, who knows? A rock is being a rock and a computer is being a computer regardless of what I or an ant think of them or how we experience them. Oh! I forgot. Nibbana is another kind of reality. Larry #66295 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:27 pm Subject: Re: permission from parents dhammanando_... Hi Sarah & JC, > S: I understand that the adoptive parents are for all intents and > purposes > considered as THE parents. > > See this line which was included: > > "They who undertook to feed him in his childhood are called > "mother" and "father"" > > I don't think he needs to look for his real parents or ask about them. > He > was 'given' to and brought up by his adoptive parents, so this seems > pretty clear to me. > > I'm not any kind of Vinaya expert, however. If Ven Dhammanando or > anyone > else has anything further to add, I'd be glad. I agree. I was in fact adopted myself as a baby, have had no contact with my biological parents since, and my adoptive father died when I was eleven. So when I wanted to ordain, I sought the permission of my adoptive mother in line with the clause, "They who undertook to feed him..." On the E-sangha forum I get quite a lot of private messages from men enquiring about the minutiae of going forth. Most of them are American twenty-somethings and many are quite shocked to learn that the parental consent rule applies throughout one's parents' lives, irrespective of one's own age. It seems to be quite an affront to their individualism: "Whaddaya mean I need mom's permission?!? I'm already twenty-three!" Best wishes, Dhammanando #66296 From: JC Mendoza Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] permission from parents jcmendoza1000 I'd prefer to keep it personal sorry:( Well lets just hope the Ven Dhammanando hears us:) #66297 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! jonoabb Hi Bill bjones6513 wrote: > Hi Howard, > You got me looking up references. > ... > > I sure didn't know this would turn into such a lengthy topic. I was just > trying to encourage the person to continue with their Goenka practice > and not to abandon it as they were told by someone in this discussion > group. > I've got news for you: this is still a short thread by dsg standards! Don't be surprised if it runs for a few more weeks yet ;-)). Once we get our teeth into something here we give it a real going over. By the way, don't be discouraged by unexpected, controversial or negative responses to well-meant posts. Whatever one says here is probably going to challenge the deeply held views of one member or another, and some of us have rawer nerves than others ;-)) Jon #66298 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:23 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 614- Wholesome Deeds(k) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd The Visuddhimagga (Chapter I) deals with many aspects of síla. For the monks there is the observance of the rules of the Order of monks (Paìimokkha). It is difficult to observe morality perfectly for a layman; he may find himself in circumstances where it is hard not to neglect morality. He may be tempted to kill insects in house and garden, to evade taxes or to accept bribes. The person who has accumulated inclinations for the monkhood leaves his home for the homeless life in order to observe morality perfectly and to lead a life of non-violence and of contentment with little. The monk should not delight in gain and honour. He should not give hints nor use other means of scheming in order to obtain the requisites of robes, food, dwelling and medicines, and this is training in livelihood purification, which is an aspect of síla mentioned in the Visuddhimagga. Another aspect of síla is reflecting wisely on the use of the requisites. The monk should train himself not to be attached to the requisites but he should know that they are not for pleasure, that they are to be used for his health and comfort. Thus he can dedicate himself to the study and teaching of Dhamma and the development of right understanding. Also laypeople can reflect wisely, for example, on food, while they are eating. Food is most of the time an object of attachment and it can also be an object of aversion. There may be moments that we reflect wisely, with kusala citta, on the use of food: food can be considered as a medicine for the body. Then we will be less inclined to indulge in food. Overeating leads to laziness. Another aspect of síla mentioned by the Visuddhimagga (I, 42 B) is “virtue of restraint of the sense faculties”. We read in this section a quotation from the “Middle Length Sayings” I, 27, the “Lesser Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprint”. The text states: * "… On seeing a visible object with the eye, he apprehends neither the signs nor the particulars through which, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil and unprofitable states of covetousness and grief might invade him, he enters upon the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty, undertakes the restraint of the eye faculty…" * The same is said of the other five doors. When there is mindfulness of one reality at a time as it presents itself through one of the six doors, there is the observance of síla, good moral conduct. Moreover, the understanding is being developed which can eradicate defilements. If one separates the observance of síla from the development of insight síla cannot become enduring. If one does not develop insight defilements can be temporarily subdued but not eradicated. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66299 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:26 pm Subject: Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today upasaka_howard Hi, all - I'm going to the hospital today for some ambulatory surgery on my right arm. (I'll arrive at the hospital at 10:00 a.m., and the surgery should commence at noon.) The surgery involves grinding down a bone spur that has been fraying the rotator cuff and bicep tissue, and a procedure called "decompression" which amounts to an opening up of spaces that should be present but are not, generally cleaning things up, and "releasing the bicep" (whatever that is exactly, LOL!). This *should* be rather straightforward, involving only regional anaesthesia (a nerve block) followed by "light anaesthesia" via an IV that will make me unconscious during the actual surgery so long as the anaesthetic is administered. I'll be going back home today. The surgery is on my right arm, and I am right-handed, which will pose some difficulties for me. I'll be going home with an ice pack and my arm in a sling, I'll be sleeping in a chair for the next couple nights, and then I'll have 6 to 8 weeks of physical therapy. It is likely that my emailing will be drastically curtailed for a while. I'll keep in touch as possible, though. In case I cannot do any emailing as soon as I'd hope, I wish all of you for whom it is meaningful a very merry Christmas, a happy Chanukah (half over already), and, for all, a very happy new year! With metta, Howard #66300 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: permission from parents sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando (& JC), Thank you for adding your comment: --- Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > >S: "They who undertook to feed him in his childhood are called > > "mother" and "father"" > > > > I don't think he needs to look for his real parents or ask about them. > > > He > > was 'given' to and brought up by his adoptive parents, so this seems > > pretty clear to me. <...> Ven D:> I agree. I was in fact adopted myself as a baby, have had no contact > with my biological parents since, and my adoptive father died when I > was eleven. So when I wanted to ordain, I sought the permission of my > adoptive mother in line with the clause, "They who undertook to feed > him..." .<..> > "Whaddaya mean I need mom's permission?!? I'm already twenty-three!" .... S: I can imagine! Perhaps it also raises questions about teachings on respect for parents in general, deeper meanings of 'independence' and reasons for going forth... With respect, Sarah ======= #66301 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today nilovg Hi Howard, Lodewijk and I send you our best wishes for a speedy recovery. Also warmest wishes for the festive season. I read your last answer to my mails, and I wanted to delay anyway my reactions, so that will be after Thailand. You may not be able to even read at the computer. Nina. Op 19-dec-2006, om 11:26 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm going to the hospital today for some ambulatory surgery on my > right arm. #66302 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:16 am Subject: Re: Insects and the Precept Against Killing sarahprocter... Hi James, Howard, Rob K, (Ven Dhammanando & all), The discussion on the other Vinaya point about ordination reminds me that a month of so we there was a discussion on this thread of killing insects, bacteria and so on and I had intended to add a couple of quotes from Ven Thanissaro & the Vinaya at the time. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/64906 James: "whenever we wash our bodies we kill thousands and millions of living microbes." Robert: "Just a quick post to point out that there is no indication in Theravada texts that bacteria , virus or microbe are living beings....." ******* S: I thought Thanissaro's summary from the Vinaya and commentary below might be relevant about beings 'too small to be seen with the naked-eye' and medicines allowed for monks which include anti- bacterials and so on. ..... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/ch08- 7.htmlChapter 8: Pacittiya "7. The Animal Chapter <...> 61. Should any bhikkhu knowingly deprive an animal of life, it is to be confessed. There are five factors for the full offense here. 1) Object: a living animal. 2) Perception: One perceives it to be a living animal. 3) Intention: One knowingly, consciously, deliberately, and purposefully wants to cause its death. 4) Effort: whatever one does with the purpose of causing it to die. 5) Result: It dies as a result of one's action. Object. Animal here covers all common animals. As the Commentary notes, whether the animal is large or small makes no difference in terms of the penalty, although the size of the animal is one of the factors determining the moral gravity of the act. ***Apparently, this factor does not include beings too small to be seen with the naked eye, inasmuch as the classes of medicine allowed in Mahavagga VI include a number of anti-bacterial and anti-viral substances — some mineral salts and the decoctions made from the leaves of some trees, for example, can be antibiotic. The Commentary's example of the smallest extreme to which this rule extends is a bed bug egg. The four "Things Not To Be Done," taught to every bhikkhu immediately after his ordination (Mv.I.78.4), say that one should not deprive an animal of life, "even if it is only an ant."*** On the other end of the spectrum, there is a parajika for deliberately killing a human being, and a thullaccaya for deliberately killing a peta, yakkha, or naga."(end quote> ..... S: Of course, people raise the question of microscopes for scientists with regard to the reference to 'naked eye' and so on. (My asterisks above for highlighting the relevant passage above. Ven Thanissaro's text continues below my sign-off). (Ven Dhammanando, do you have anything to add here to these comments. Unfortunately the commentary is not translated into English.) S: In the Vinaya, the emphasis is always on the prior knowledge and intention of course. Many examples are given. In one example some monks were doing repairs, knew the water they were using contained life, but 'still sprinkled grass and clay and had them sprinkled'. It was reported to the Buddha who laid down the rule (Paacittiya XX): "Whatever monk, knowing that the water contains life, should sprinkle grass or clay or should have them sprinkled, there is an offence of expiation." .... S: I'm using I.B.Horner's translation from Suttavibhanga, Bk of Discipline, vol. 11. It continues: "If he thinks that it contains life when it contains life, (and) sprinkles grass or clay or has them sprinkled, there is an offence of expiation. If he is in doubt as to whether it contains life.....has them sprinkled, there is an offence of wrong-doing. If he thinks that it does not contain life when it contains life, has them sprinkled, there is no offence. If he thinks that it contains life when it does not contain life, there is an offence of wrong-doing. If he is in doubt as to whether it does not contain life, there is an offence of wrong-doing. If he thinks that it does not contain life when it does not contain life, there is no offence. "There is no offence if it was unintentional, if he was not thinking, if he did not know; if he is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer." Metta, Sarah http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/ch08- 7.htmlChapter 8: Pacittiya "7. The Animal Chapter (contd. from above) "Perception. If this factor is not fulfilled, there is no offense. For example, if one steps on bed bug eggs, thinking them to be spots of dirt, there is no penalty. Intention, in the Vibhanga, is described as "having made the decision knowingly, consciously, and purposefully." According to the Commentary, "having made the decision" refers to the moment when one "crushes" one's indecisiveness by taking an act. Knowingly means that one knows that, "This is a living being." Consciously means that one is aware that one's action is depriving the animal of life. Purposefully means that one's purpose in acting is to kill the animal. All of this indicates that this factor is fulfilled only when one acts on a clear and consciously made decision to deprive the animal of life. Thus, for example, if one is sweeping a walk, trying carefully not to kill any insects, and yet some ants happen to die, one does not commit an offense even if one knew that there was the possibility that some might die, since one's purpose in acting was not to cause their death. Effort. The act of taking life may take the form of any of the six types of action listed under Parajika 3: using one's own person (e.g., hitting with the hand, kicking, using a knife or a club); throwing (hurling a stone, shooting an arrow or a gun); using a stationary device (setting a trap, placing poison in food); using magical formulae; using psychic powers; commanding." ***** #66303 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Thanks for letting us know and very best wishes for the surgery and a speedy recovery. I'm sure you'll be in good hands and we'll look forward to hearing from you when it's convenient. (I'm celebrating my first day in an (exercise) bra today and no (mild) pain killers - a first for both after 6 wks of being bra-less and drugged up at night. I was also pretty ice-dependent for a while:-). I still go around with a bare midriff, but no more plastic bowls (except in bed) - cutting-edge fashion here as Connie put it. I don't think I will have any lasting neuralgia like your poor aunt.) Kamma rules.... I liked the reminder that when there's awareness, there's no idea of 'my body', 'my health', 'my sickness' or 'my anthing else' - just namas and rupas! Metta, Sarah p.s I'm mentioning it to Jon as I write and he's also concerned and sends his very best wishes for a speedy recovery too. ======= --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, all - > > I'm going to the hospital today for some ambulatory surgery on my > > right arm. #66304 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:46 am Subject: Re: Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Hope all goes well! H: "...and a procedure called 'decompression' which amounts to an opening up of spaces that should be present but are not..." Aakaasa-dhaatu? Sincerely, Scott. #66305 From: Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:00 am Subject: A word for the day jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... One is not low because of birth nor does birth make one holy. Deeds alone make one low, deeds alone make one holy. Sutta Nipata 136 #66306 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:16 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 122 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 122 Intro: In the preceding section it was explained that if there would not be accumulated kamma, there would not be result, vipaaka. Accumulated kamma produces its appropriate result and it is not so that for all beings any kind of vipaaka could arise. In the following sections it is specified which kamma-formations produce which types of vipaakacittas, beginning with kusala kamma- formations that produce kusala vipaakacittas. ------------ Text Vis. 122. But which kind of consciousness has which kind of formations as its condition? --------- N: The Tiika states that this is said in order to show that not all kinds of vipaakacittas occur in all cases. It states that just so many, namely, twentynine kamma-formations in all, can produce just so many, namely, thirtytwo kinds of vipaakacittas. The Tiika states that here the vipaakacittas are referred to in general. The text then proceeds explaining them in detail, beginning with the words: conditioned by meritorious kamma-formations of the sense sphere, kaamaavacarapu~n~naabhisa”nkhaarapaccaya.... Some of these occur as rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga and cuti, and some occur in the course of life, but here they are not differentiated. ----------- Text Vis.:Firstly, the following sixteen kinds arise with the sense- sphere formation of merit as condition: the five profitable resultants beginning with eye-consciousness ((34)-(38)), and in the case of mind-consciousness one kind of mind element (39) and two kinds of mind-consciousness element ((40)-(41)), ------- N: As to mind-consciousness that is kusala vipaaka, the Tiika mentions that this has been specified. As we have seen, when cittas are classified as sixfold, they are the five types of sense-cognitions and mind-consciousness which includes all the other cittas. This section deals with the mundane kusala vipaakacittas included in mind-consciousness. The ahetuka kusala vipaakacittas (without beautiful roots) included in mind--consciousness, mano-vi~n~naa.na, are the following: Receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchanacitta, classified under mind- element, mano-dhaatu. Two types of investigating-consciousness, santiira.nacitta, accompanied by indifferent feeling and by happy feeling, classified under mind-consciousness element, mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu. --------------- Text Vis.: and the eight kinds of sense-sphere resultant ((42)-(49)), -------- N: The eight mahaa-vipaakacittas are also included in mind- consciousness. The Tiika mentions that the form mahaavipaakaani which is the plural of a neuter form (it would be expected to be masc. pl: vipaaka) is used since it is considered as consciousness, vi~n~naana.m, which is neuter, just as we have seen in the preceding section. Mahaa-vipaakacitta is a term designating vipaakacitta of the sense- sphere, accompanied by sobhana hetus, beautiful roots. They are the results of kusala kamma of the sense-sphere and they can perform the functions of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti, and in the course of life they can perform the function of registration or retention (tadaaramma.na). As to the ahetuka kusala vipaakacittas mentioned before, the five profitable resultants beginning with eye-consciousness, the receiving- consciousness, sampa.ticchanacitta, the two types of investigating- consciousness, santiira.nacitta, these occur in the course of life. As regards investigating-consciousness, santira.nacitta accompanied by upekkhaa, this can perform the function of rebirth, bhavanga and cuti in the case of those who are handicapped from the first moment of life. -------- Text Vis.: according as it is said: 'Owing to profitable kamma of the sense sphere having been performed, stored up, resultant eye- consciousness' (Dhs.431), 'ear-, nose-, tongue-, body- consciousness' (Dhs.443), 'resultant mind element arises' (Dhs.455), 'mind-consciousness element accompanied by joy arises' (Dhs.469), 'mind-consciousness element accompanied by equanimity arises' (Dhs.484), 'accompanied by joy and associated with knowledge ... accompanied by joy, associated with knowledge and prompted ... accompanied by joy and dissociated from knowledge ... accompanied by joy, dissociated from knowledge and prompted ... accompanied by equanimity and associated with knowledge ... accompanied by equanimity, associated with knowledge and prompted ... accompanied by equanimity and dissociated from knowledge ... accompanied by equanimity, dissociated from knowledge and prompted' (Dhs.498). -------- N: Here all kinds of kusala vipaakacittas are classified, those which are ahetuka vipaakacittas and those which are mahaa-vipaakacittas. There are sixteen types in all: of which eight are ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta and eight are mahaa-vipaakacitta. These are produced by eight kinds of meritorious kamma-formations, and of these, four are associated with wisdom, four are without wisdom, four are accompanied by happy feeling, four by indiufferent feeling, four are unprompted and four are prompted. --------- Conclusion: Kusala kamma produces its appropriate result in the form of rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta and dying-consciousness, and also in the course of life by way of the experience of pleasant objects through the senses. The fact that we are reborn as a human being is the result of kusala kamma of the sense-sphere. In the course of life we experience pleasant objects and unpleasant objects through the senses, and these are the results of different kammas. When we are praised, we may think of people who praise ‘me’, but in reality different cittas experience objects. The hearing of a pleasant sound is vipaakacitta that arises and falls away extremely rapidly. It was the right time for kusala kamma to produce that result. After that we are likely to think of what was heard with attachment, and that is akusala citta. If we have correct understanding of kamma and vipaaka it will help us to view the events of life with more equanimity. Each cause brings its result accordingly and nobody can prevent kamma from producing its result when it is the right time. ******* Nina. #66307 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 6:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questioning your response, practice. no. 1 jonoabb Hi Howard (and Nina) I hope you don't mind if I come in with a couple of comments on your exchange with Nina. 1. You keep asking Nina to stipulate which conventional actions are taught by the Buddha, other that listening and considering, as being the 'practice'. As I understand it, and as has been said here many times before, the Buddha did not teach any conventional actions as being the 'practice'. What he did teach is that the hearing of the dhamma, reflection on what has been heard and understood and 'practice in accordance with the dhamma' are necessary prerequisites for the development of the path. That 'practice in accordance with the dhamma' is simply the arising of panna that is conditioned by what has been heard, understood and reflected upon in the sense of being related to the present moment. None of these are conventional actions. 2. There is one crucial ingredient in the whole mix that I think you may be overlooking, and that is the panna that has already been accumulated. It is the (latent) accumulation of previously developed panna that makes possible the arising of panna in this lifetime if the right conditions are in place, and it is just this (re)arising of accumulated panna that is the 'practice' and the development of the path. Regarding the following: ------------------------------------------ Howard: Nina, this is a return to the litany to avoid the issue. Please, please, be up-front on this issue, Nina: Does Khun Sujin teach that the only conventional actions constituting the practice are studying and contemplating? ------------------------------------------ I also have 2 comments: 1. While I would not attempt to speak for Acharn Sujin in, I can say that she certainly does *not* teach that studying and contemplating are conventional actions constituting the practice. Hearing the dhamma explained in a way that makes sense and is appropriate to our level of understanding is not a conventional action. It can only happen if that particular 'vipaka' is due to us. No amount of the conventional action known as 'listening to dhamma' or 'studying the dhamma' can make it happen if it is not our due. 2. I question your insistence on having Nina (or anyone) speak for Acharn Sujin. That is not possible, and serves no real purpose anyway. There are plenty of English translations Acharn Sujin's talks (such as 'Survey') readily available to anyone who cares to read them. But trying to pin someone down to a potted synopsis of what she says will not give you a proper idea of how she explains the teachings. Having butted in, I'll butt out now, and leave you two to it! Jon #66308 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/19/06 7:52:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Hope all goes well! -------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! :-) ------------------------------- > > H: "...and a procedure called 'decompression' which amounts to an > opening up of spaces that should be present but are not..." > > Aakaasa-dhaatu? --------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! Space element, eh? --------------------------------- > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > ===================== With metta, Howard (Just leaving now for the hospital) #66309 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/19/06 6:33:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for letting us know and very best wishes for the surgery and a > speedy recovery. I'm sure you'll be in good hands and we'll look forward > to hearing from you when it's convenient. --------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, Sarah! :-) ------------------------------- > > (I'm celebrating my first day in an (exercise) bra today and no (mild) > pain killers - a first for both after 6 wks of being bra-less and drugged > up at night. I was also pretty ice-dependent for a while:-). I still go > around with a bare midriff, but no more plastic bowls (except in bed) - > cutting-edge fashion here as Connie put it. I don't think I will have any > lasting neuralgia like your poor aunt.) ----------------------------------- Howard: I do hope all remnants of the misery will be fully gone! ---------------------------------- > > Kamma rules.... > > I liked the reminder that when there's awareness, there's no idea of 'my > body', 'my health', 'my sickness' or 'my anthing else' - just namas and > rupas! > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I'm mentioning it to Jon as I write and he's also concerned and sends > his very best wishes for a speedy recovery too. --------------------------------------------- Howard: My thanks to Jon, Sarah! Unless the doctor ot anaesthesilogist messes up in some way, this should be a simple (though annoying) matter. ;-) ====================== With metta, Howard #66310 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/19/06 5:57:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Lodewijk and I send you our best wishes for a speedy recovery. Also > warmest wishes for the festive season. > I read your last answer to my mails, and I wanted to delay anyway my > reactions, so that will be after Thailand. You may not be able to > even read at the computer. > Nina. > ====================== Thank you, Nina, and to Lodewijk also. With much metta, Howard P.S. I am so pleased that you are accepting my recent posts to you that "push" so hard in a warm and friendly way! :-) As you know, I value friendship and metta very, very highly, far more than "making points", and I very much value the friendship with you and Lodewijk. #66311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today nilovg Hi Howard, thanks for your kind words. There is still a lot to be said about this subject. Firm remembrance of the Dhamma one heard is an important condition for the arising of direct awareness and understanding. Also, we think of many unimportant things in a day, but the fact that we also have exchanges on Dhamma, read suttas, etc. causes us to reflect more often on Dhamma also when we do not read or speak about it. We hear about citta with aversion, and that this is akusala. Then we remember it when it actually arises, and we verify what we heard in our life: this is so true, the Buddha taught the truth. Thus we get more confident in the teachings and just a little more understanding can accumulate: little by little. As I wrote in Cetasikas: In the development of wholesomeness one has to be farsighted. We should realize that what we accumulate today, wholesomeness or unwholesomeness, can have its effects in the future, even in future lives. We can become more clever in evaluating the circumstances we are in, and the friends we have: we will be able to judge whether surroundings and friends are favourable for the development of wholesomeness or not. Each little amount of understanding today has effect in the future. We have to remember: there is a concurrence of many conditions for the arising of one moment of understanding. Not just one condition. Also seeing the value of kusala and understanding is a condiiton for its arising. More about this later on, after Thailand. All the best, Nina. Op 19-dec-2006, om 15:16 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > P.S. I am so pleased that you are accepting my recent posts to you > that > "push" so hard in a warm and friendly way! :-) As you know, I value > friendship and > metta very, very highly, far more than " #66312 From: "bjones6513" Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:39 am Subject: Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! bjones6513 Hi Jon, I don't mind discussion which may display different view points. That's how we find the truth. As I said previously, I just didn't want to discourage the person who attended the Goenka retreat from practicing the way they were practicing, especially when they turned to this group for advice. I'm in no means discouraged. Enough said. Have a good holiday season. Good luck to you, Howard. With metta, Bill - -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Bill > I've got news for you: this is still a short thread by dsg standards! > Don't be surprised if it runs for a few more weeks yet ;-)). Once we > get our teeth into something here we give it a real going over. > > By the way, don't be discouraged by unexpected, controversial or > negative responses to well-meant posts. Whatever one says here is > probably going to challenge the deeply held views of one member or > another, and some of us have rawer nerves than others ;-)) > > Jon > #66313 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:48 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe, 156 nilovg Dear friends, Uddhacca is translated as ``agitation'' or ``excitement'' and kukkucca as ``worry'' or ``regret''. Uddhacca arises with each and every type of akusala citta. It prevents the citta from wholesomeness. As regards kukkucca, worry or regret, the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 174) states: ... It has subsequent regret as its characteristic. Its function is to sorrow about what has and what has not been done. It is manifested as remorse. Its proximate cause is what has and what has not been done. It should be regarded as slavery. When we have done something wrong or we have not done the good deed we should have done, we might be inclined to think about it again and again. We may ask ourselves why we acted in the way we did, but we cannot change what is past already. While we worry we have akusala cittas; worry makes us enslaved. Uddhacca and kukkucca prevent us from being tranquil. As regards vicikicchå, doubt, there are many kinds of doubt. One may have doubt about the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, or doubt about the eightfold Path. Doubt is akusala and a hindrance to the performing of kusala. All of the hindrances are obstructions to the performing of kusala. Is there a way to eliminate them? Samatha or the development of calm is a way to temporarily eliminate the hindrances. The calm which is developed in samatha has to be wholesome calm, it cannot arise with akusala citta. There is a degree of calm with each kusala citta but it is hard to know the characteristic of calm precisely, because there are bound to be akusala cittas very shortly after the kusala cittas. In order to develop the calm which is temporary freedom from the hindrances right understanding, paññå, is indispensable. If one merely tries to concentrate on a meditation subject without right understanding of kusala and akusala and of the characteristic of calm, calm cannot grow. The paññå of the level of samatha does not eradicate defilements, but it knows the characteristic of calm and it knows how it can be developed by means of a suitable meditation subject. Akusala citta is likely to arise time and again, even when one tries to develop samatha. One may be attached to silence and then there is akusala citta instead of the calm of samatha. Or one may think that when there is no pleasant feeling nor unpleasant feeling but indifferent feeling there is calm. However, indifferent feeling can arise with kusala citta as well as with akusala citta; lobha-múla- citta can be accompanied by indifferent feeling and moha-múla-citta is invariably accompanied by indifferent feeling. Thus, when there is indifferent feeling it may seem that one is calm, but there is not necessarily the wholesome calm of samatha. The paññå of samatha must be very keen so as to be able to recognize even the more subtle defilements which arise. ****** Nina. #66314 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:52 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, III, 9. nilovg Dear friends, In the Commentary to the “Book of Analysis” (the "Vibhanga", the Second Book of the Abhidhamma), in the "Dispeller of Delusion" (Sammohavinodaní , Classification of the Khandhas) it is explained that saññå is like a mirage which deceives us: Perception, saññå, also is like a mirage in the sense of being unsubtantial, and likewise in the sense of being ungraspable. For one cannot grasp it and drink it or wash in it or bathe in it or fill a pot with it. Furthermore, just as a mirage quivers and seems like the movement of waves, so indeed perception also, divided up as perception of blue, etc. for the purpose of experiencing blue, etc., shakes and quivers. And just as a mirage deceives many and makes them say: "This is blue, beautiful, pleasant, permanent." So too in the case of yellow and so on. Thus it is like a mirage by deception also. We may not have considered to what extent wrong saññå influences our whole life. We are misled by the outer appearance of things. When children play with dolls and toy animals they live in their own dream world which they take very seriously. When a toy is broken or is lost they cry. Is it not pitiful that we do not really grow up, but keep on playing in our dream world? Because of saññå which remembers wrongly we hold on to all objects which are experienced. We have a short happy time with the five khandhas which arise, are present for an extremely short time and then fall away. We cry about our losses. We can begin to be mindful of different characteristics of nåma and rúpa, this moment should not be lost. The study of the Abhidhamma helps a great deal to eliminate misunderstandings about different nåmas and rúpas. When for example hardness appears that characteristic can be known as rúpa, not self. We should not try to catch the place which is the body-base at a particular moment. Then there is thinking instead of awareness of the reality which appears. The rúpa which is body-base cannot be experienced through touch, it can only be experienced through the mind-door. This rúpa falls away immediately. We read in the scriptures that realities are not self, anattå, but anattå may only be a word to us. Does the reality which is not self appear already through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind- door? If we still confuse the different doorways it seems that people, houses and trees appear, and they seem to be real. Seeing is one experience and it experiences only colour, it has nothing to do with hearing or the experience of tangible object. It is only when paññå has been developed to the degree of the first vipassanå ñåna that no world, no person, no self appears, only nåma and rúpa. ******* Nina. #66315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A word for the day nilovg Dear Jayasinghe, what a good idea to post a sutta. Thank you. Nina. Op 19-dec-2006, om 13:00 heeft het volgende geschreven: > One is not low because of birth > nor does birth make one holy. > Deeds alone make one low, > deeds alone make one holy. > > Sutta Nipata 136 #66316 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:51 am Subject: Re: Insects and the Precept Against Killing dhammanando_... Hi Sarah, > Sarah: (Ven Dhammanando, do you have anything to add here to these > comments. > Unfortunately the commentary is not translated into English.) Not very much really. A few weeks ago I did post briefly to E-sangha on the subject of bacteria and the like. I paste the questions and answers below: > a) Are viruses living beings? > b)Are bacteria living beings? I don't think this is known for sure. The Pali texts refer to the "two hundred families of worms" that share our bodies, and since the texts seem to assume that they inhabit everyone's body one can't limit the meaning to just tapeworms and the like, which afflict only some persons. And so it might be tempting to identify these with bacteria and viruses. However, the subject only comes up in the context of descriptions of asubha meditation, and so the writers don't digress into a discussion of how large these "worms" are or whether they are to be classed as anything more than one-facultied beings (like plants). > c) Is killing viruses bad kamma? > d) Is killing bacteria bad kamma? I think not. In Vinaya texts the precept against intentional killing is broken only if the being killed is large enough to be visible to the human eye. > e) Can one be reborn as a virus? If so which plane (out of 31 planes > of existence) is it? > f) Can one be reborn as a bacteria? If so which plane (out of 31 > planes of existence) is it? If viruses and bacteria are sentient beings, then yes. If not, then no. If they are sentient beings then they would have to be included with animals, since they are too small to be any other kind of amanussa. Best wishes, Dhammanando #66317 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Co to Attakaariisutta nilovg Dear Scott, ------- S: The compounds 'aarabbadhaatuya' and 'aarabhavanto' are still a bit difficult for me. 'Aarabbha' (or 'aarambha') imply 'attempt, effort, inception of energy'. I can sort of see how 'bhavanto' modifies but not 'dhaatuu'. Is it perhaps 'dhaatuka' - 'having the nature, by nature, affected with'? As in, 'having the nature of being effort or incipient energy'? And does 'sati' mean some form of remembrance as part of the 'process'? ------------ N: when you see the form sati it often means: when there is... A form of santo, being, genetive absolute (see Warder). aarabbadhaatuya sati: when there is the dhaatu of aarabbha, effort. aarabhavanto sattaa pa~n~nayanti, beings are known to make an effort . aarabhavati to make an effort. "Ya.m kho, braahmana, aarabbadhaatuya sati aarabhavanto sattaa pa~n~nayanti, aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro." -------- Co. in Thai: aarabbadhaatu is the effort that has been initiated. The effort that has the nature of departing from laziness is nikkhamataa (going out). The nature of steafastness (.thiti). The nature (sabhaava) of going ahead is the dhaatu of parakkama, endeavour. The nature of strength, is thaama dhaatu, the element of power. The nature of steafastness the dhaatu of .thiti.The nature of trying is the element of undertaking, upakamma. All these words are only names for effort. ------- Remark: All these forms are called dhaatu, element devoid of self. There is no question of 'conventional effort' . There is effort, but it is a dhaatu. The term steadfastness, .thiti, is also used for an arahat, for example in the co to the Mahaaraahulovadasutta. The person who is steadfast. Nina. ---------- S: In the Anguttara Nikaaya, Chakkanipata, Devatavaggo, there is the Attakaariisutta.m: "Then a certain Brahmin approached the Blessed One, exchanged friendly greetings, sat on a side, and said: 'Good Gotama I am of this view and say: Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' ------------ #66318 From: "bjones6513" Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:20 pm Subject: Re: Insects and the Precept Against Killing bjones6513 > Hi Sarah and Others, Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo has an interesting article titled "Consciousness" which can be found at www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/consciousness.html. He talks about a third kind of consciousness inhabiting our bodies. Worms,germs and all kinds of little animals are in our bodies. He states that there are lots of minds in our mind. Many of these bacterial symbionts such as the mitochondria have over time become part of our own cells. If anyone gets a chance to read this article let me know what you think. Also, I remember one of the kitchens in one of temples which we visit was overrun by German cockroaches. The monks wouldn't kill them or let anyone else kill them. A solution had to be found because they were contaminating the food. So, someone came up with the idea to arrange a day-long outing for the monks and at the same time call a local pest control company. The problem was solved. With metta, Bill #66319 From: "bjones6513" Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience bjones6513 Hi Joop and Larry, Could you clarify your meaning of reality? Are you meaning reality in the sense of dhammas? A different take on your statement that a rock "is no being", (I never really thought about this statement which follows so as of yet I don't have an opinion) "the more persisting the form, the less intense the consciousness (the inner moment of perservering inertia). The more changing, the more moving, the more oscillating the form, the stronger is the inner principle of persistency (in thinking beings the I- consciousness). Consciousness is a phenomenon of equalization or the faculty of persistency, transformed into the inner being. Material form is the faculty of persistency which has become both visible and external. In other words, it is a visible form of consciousness." This was taken from Govinda, The Psychological Attitude of Early Buddhist Philosophy, p. 131. This also coincides with Nhat Hanh's take on the 1st precept, although not Theravadan but I'll mention it anyway, where he mentions "to protect the lives of people, animals, plants, and rocks and minerals." So, is there being or no being in a rock? With metta, Bill --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > J: "a human being can experience (the rupa of) a rock or computer, > that's something different as 'being' a rock or computer, in fact there > is no being! We can have a theory of what a computer 'is'; but an ant > walking on and in my computer has a total different theory of it than I > have." > > L: I would say being is reality, but reality has many facets. Experience > is a reality and the physical universe is a reality. Maybe there are > other realities, who knows? A rock is being a rock and a computer is > being a computer regardless of what I or an ant think of them or how we > experience them. > > Oh! I forgot. Nibbana is another kind of reality. > > Larry > #66320 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:21 pm Subject: Re: Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > I'm going to the hospital today for some ambulatory surgery on my > right arm. I wish you a speedy recovery! And Happy Holidays to you also. Metta, James #66321 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience lbidd2 Hi Bill, B: "Could you clarify your meaning of reality? Are you meaning reality in the sense of dhammas?" L: Yes, nama and rupa. I can't tell what Lama Govinda and Thich Nhat Hanh have in mind from the quotes you gave, but taking care of rocks and minerals seems to be personalizing rupa, possibly as a way of conditioning wholesome consciousnesses. The word "being" also has a somewhat personal connotation, but I wasn't using it in that sense. By "being" I simply meant reality. For me, the "personal" is a matter of the root consciousnesses: consciousness rooted in lust, hatred, bewilderment, generosity, kindness, insight. This is what being human is. Being a rock is mostly a matter of being hard. To my mind there is a difference between being hard and experiencing hardness. One is a rupa, the other is a consciousness. Larry #66323 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questioning your response, practice. no. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - Can't write much. I'm in discomfort, and my typing w/my left hand is diificult. So, my remarks will be brief. In a message dated 12/19/06 9:17:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Nina) > > I hope you don't mind if I come in with a couple of comments on your > exchange with Nina. > > 1. You keep asking Nina to stipulate which conventional actions are > taught by the Buddha, other that listening and considering, as being the > 'practice'. As I understand it, and as has been said here many times > before, the Buddha did not teach any conventional actions as being the > 'practice'. What he did teach is that the hearing of the dhamma, > reflection on what has been heard and understood and 'practice in > accordance with the dhamma' are necessary prerequisites for the > development of the path. That 'practice in accordance with the dhamma' > is simply the arising of panna that is conditioned by what has been > heard, understood and reflected upon in the sense of being related to > the present moment. None of these are conventional actions. --------------------------------------------- H: I completely disagree. To me, the facts as expressed in the suttas are patently the total opposite. We are nowhere close on this. ---------------------------------------------- > > 2. There is one crucial ingredient in the whole mix that I think you > may be overlooking, and that is the panna that has already been > accumulated. > ------------------------------------------- H: For lots of non-Buddhists as well. ------------------------------------------ It is the (latent) accumulation of previously developed > > panna that makes possible the arising of panna in this lifetime if the > right conditions are in place, and it is just this (re)arising of > accumulated panna that is the 'practice' and the development of the path. ------------------------------------------ H: That's not practice. It is the fruit of practice. Words do have meaning, Jon. ----------------------------------------- > > Regarding the following: > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Nina, this is a return to the litany to avoid the issue. Please, > please, be up-front on this issue, Nina: Does Khun Sujin teach that the only > > conventional actions constituting the practice are studying and > contemplating? > ------------------------------------------ > > I also have 2 comments: > > 1. While I would not attempt to speak for Acharn Sujin in, I can say > that she certainly does *not* teach that studying and contemplating are > conventional actions constituting the practice. > > Hearing the dhamma explained in a way that makes sense and is > appropriate to our level of understanding is not a conventional action. > It can only happen if that particular 'vipaka' is due to us. No amount > of the conventional action known as 'listening to dhamma' or 'studying > the dhamma' can make it happen if it is not our due. > > 2. I question your insistence on having Nina (or anyone) speak for > Acharn Sujin. That is not possible, and serves no real purpose anyway. > There are plenty of English translations Acharn Sujin's talks (such as > 'Survey') readily available to anyone who cares to read them. But > trying to pin someone down to a potted synopsis of what she says will > not give you a proper idea of how she explains the teachings. > > Having butted in, I'll butt out now, and leave you two to it! > > Jon > ====================== Well have to agree to disagree on this, Jon. It's physically too hard for me to continue the thread. With metta, Howard #66324 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 12/19/06 7:30:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, all - > > > > I'm going to the hospital today for some ambulatory surgery on > my > >right arm. > > I wish you a speedy recovery! And Happy Holidays to you also. > > Metta, > James > ============================ Thanks! It was done, and they say it went well, though there was some anaesthesia problem in doing the nerve block - so there was a lot of pain with that, and then they ended up having to use more IV anaesthetic. Right now I'm exhausted and in discomfort, but both should improve soon. With metta, Howard #66325 From: "bjones6513" Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:13 pm Subject: Re: elements of experience bjones6513 ---Hi Larry, Thanks for the reply. That would be my understanding. But I don't think Govinda is personalizing rupa. Maybe Thich Knat Hanh. Govinda's book, which deals with the Abhidhamma, goes on to define consciousness as the result of two components, movement and inertia. The result appears as vibration. If the vibration is strong enough, the stream of being (bhavanga) is interrupted. The longer the vibration, the more intense is consciousness. Because consciousness is a phenomenon of resistence, it is a constantly renewed effort to persist, hence the experience of ego. So following this logic he goes on to say that if conscoiusness is a phenomeon of resistence it must appear the most intensive in those forms of existence which are exposed to the greatest obstacles. So the plant is more conscious than the mineral, the animal more conscious than the plant, man more conscious than the animal. And on the celestial plane, if one is so inclined to believe, that beings of higher planes, whose existence is exposed to much less resistence and whose state of being is of much longer duration, possess a less differentiated and less "I" consciousness. From this reasoning he goes on to say that the more persisting the form, the less intense the consciousness. He defines reality as the movement between being and non- being. When viewing a rock, all I view is, for example, what relates to my experience, such as hardness. There is no inquiry as to the essence of that matter or rupa but only the essence of sense perceptions and experiences which only create a representation of rupa. Would this be a true representation? I don't think so. Good night. Bill > > L: Yes, nama and rupa. I can't tell what Lama Govinda and Thich Nhat > Hanh have in mind from the quotes you gave, but taking care of rocks and > minerals seems to be personalizing rupa, possibly as a way of > conditioning wholesome consciousnesses. The word "being" also has a > somewhat personal connotation, but I wasn't using it in that sense. By > "being" I simply meant reality. For me, the "personal" is a matter of > the root consciousnesses: consciousness rooted in lust, hatred, > bewilderment, generosity, kindness, insight. This is what being human > is. Being a rock is mostly a matter of being hard. To my mind there is a > difference between being hard and experiencing hardness. One is a rupa, > the other is a consciousness. > > Larry > #66326 From: JC Mendoza Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: permission from parents jcmendoza1000 Well, what about this case? "The mother and father are deceased. Their boy has grown up in the company of [relatives] such as his maternal aunt. When he is being given the going forth, his relatives start a quarrel or criticize it. Therefore, in order to stop the quarrel, he should obtain their leave before being given the going forth. But if given the going forth without having obtained their leave there is no offence." If there is no offence when going forth without leave from an aunt who took care of him, then how much more someone whom you really have no blood relations with? Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: <...> I agree. I was in fact adopted myself as a baby, have had no contact with my biological parents since, and my adoptive father died when I was eleven. So when I wanted to ordain, I sought the permission of my adoptive mother in line with the clause, "They who undertook to feed him..." On the E-sangha forum I get quite a lot of private messages from men enquiring about the minutiae of going forth. Most of them are American twenty-somethings and many are quite shocked to learn that the parental consent rule applies throughout one's parents' lives, irrespective of one's own age. It seems to be quite an affront to their individualism: "Whaddaya mean I need mom's permission?!? I'm already twenty-three!" Best wishes, Dhammanando <...> #66327 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 8:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: elements of experience lbidd2 Hi Bill, In all honesty this sounds like nonsense to me. It certainly isn't Theravada abhidhamma. In the early days of western exploration of Tibet many adventurers came away with very fanciful ideas and some even lost their minds. Unfortunately, I think Lama Govinda may be in this category. Perhaps it was the result of gathering bits and pieces of teachings from high and low sources and trying to patch it all together. In the early part of the 20th century it was very difficult for a westerner to understand anything Tibetan. It was not until the Tibetans became westernized that they began teaching in a way that we could understand. However, the Tibetan style is still infused with mysticism and secrecy. Larry --------------------- B: "Govinda's book, which deals with the Abhidhamma, goes on to define consciousness as the result of two components, movement and inertia. The result appears as vibration. If the vibration is strong enough, the., stream of being (bhavanga) is interrupted. The longer the vibration, the more intense is consciousness. Because consciousness is a phenomenon of resistance, it is a constantly renewed effort to persist, hence the experience of ego. So following this logic he goes on to say that if consciousness is a phenomenon of resistance it must appear the most intensive in those forms of existence which are exposed to the greatest obstacles. So the plant is more conscious than the mineral, the animal more conscious than the plant, man more conscious than the animal. And on the celestial plane, if one is so inclined to believe, that beings of higher planes, whose existence is exposed to much less resistance and whose state of being is of much longer duration, possess a less differentiated and less "I" consciousness. From this reasoning he goes on to say that the more persisting the form, the less intense the consciousness. He defines reality as the movement between being and non- being." #66328 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:59 pm Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas / Htoo sarahprocter... Hi Connie, Ken H & all, You were having a discussion about meditation instruction, I believe.... --- connie wrote: > To my thinking, there's great meditation instruction in this sutta > quoted > in the Vism under Recollection of the Law (Path of Purity, p249): << > ...As > has been said: "Brahmin, one who is lustful, overcome by lust, whose > mind > is posessed by lust, meditates harm to himself, meditates harm to > others, > meditates harm to both. He experiences mental pain and grief. When lust > is > put away he does not meditate harm to himself, does not meditate harm to > > others, does not meditate harm to both. He does not experience mental > pain > and grief. Thus, brahmin, is the Law thoroughly seen". {footnote: Or > 'seen > here-and-now'. Anguttara i,156} .... S: Great sutta quote. I was interested to read the whole sutta. Here is B.Bodhi's translation from his Anthology of AN (NDB). It's from AN,Bk of 3s, 53: "Once a certain (a~n~nataro)brahmin approached the Blessed One.....and spoke to him thus: "It is said, Master Gotama, 'The Dhamma is directly visible (sandi.t.thika). In what way, Master Gotama, is the Dhamma directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, worthy of application, to be personally experienced by the wise?" "When, brahmin, a person is impassioned with lust, overwhelmed and infatuated by lust, then he plans(ceteti) for his own harm, for the harm of others, and for the harm of both; and he experiences in his mind suffering and grief. He also behaves badly by body, speech and mind, and he does not understand, as it really is, his own good, or the good of others, or the good of both. But when lust has been abandoned, he neither plans for his own harm, nor for the harm of others, nor for the harm of both; and he does not experience in his mind suffering and grief. He will not behave badly by body, speech and mind, and he will understand, as it really is, his own good, the good of others, and the good of both. In this way, brahmin, the Dhamma is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, worthy of application, to be personally experienced by the wise." .... S: The sutta continues in a similar way with regard to 'a person depraved through hatred........through delusion........' "But when hatred and delusion have been abandoned, he neither plans for his own harm, nor for the harm of others, nor for the harm of both......" As I see it, the meditating or experiencing(ceteti)always refers to the momentary, present state of the citta and accompanying cetasikas. Having an idea about any other time or place as being more suitable for such activities, merely puts off the practice and moves the goal of direct wisdom further and further away. Thanks, Connie. What else do you have in your Xmas stocking? Metta, Sarah ======= #66329 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:01 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 615- Wholesome Deeds(l) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd Through the development of right understanding síla can become more perfected. As we have seen, the three cetasikas which are the “abstinences” arise only one at a time when they accompany kusala citta which is not lokuttara but lokiya, “mundane”. When enlightenment is attained all three of them accompany the lokuttara citta. At the moment of the path-consciousness, magga-citta, there is “abstinence by way of eradication”; that is the function of the three factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood of the eightfold Path which is lokuttara. Tendencies to evil conduct are eradicated at the subsequent stages of enlightenment, until they are all eradicated at the attainment of arahatship. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66330 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:37 pm Subject: Re: permission from parents dhammanando_... Hi JC, > Well, what about this case? > "The mother and father are deceased. Their boy has grown up in the > company of [relatives] such as his maternal aunt. When he is being > given the going forth, his relatives start a quarrel or criticize it. > Therefore, in order to stop the quarrel, he should obtain their leave > before being given the going forth. But if given the going forth > without having obtained their leave there is no offence." > > If there is no offence when going forth without leave from an aunt who > took care of him, then how much more someone whom you really have no > blood relations with? I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. The rule is in fact the same in both cases: "They who undertook to feed him in his childhood are called "mother" and "father", and with respect to these the principle is *just the same as above*. The son [is reckoned as] one living dependent on himself, not on a mother and father." The phrase "just the same as above" refers to the immediately preceding clause concerning a boy brought up by his extended family. So in both cases he is advised to obtain permission from his childhood guardians, but if this is refused he may ordain nevertheless. Best wishes, Dhammanando #66331 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today nilovg Hi Howard, I have been thinking of you a lot. Glad it is done. I sympathize. But the Buddha said to Nakulapitar: Be well, Nina. Op 20-dec-2006, om 3:35 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It was done, and they say it went well, though there was some > anaesthesia problem in doing the nerve block - so there was a lot > of pain with > that, and then they ended up having to use more IV anaesthetic. > Right now I'm > exhausted and in discomfort, but both should improve soon. #66332 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Bill & James, I think this is rather an important discussion on vedana. The following is my understanding: --- upasaka@... wrote: >>Bill: My understanding of vedana and the dictionary > > translations, and I realize many of the Pali words are used > differently in > > different situations, that's why I previously asked which dictionary > this > > group uses, is:vedanā > > 'feeling', sensation, is the 2nd of the 5 groups of existence (s. > khandha > > II). .... S: In other words, it's one of the 4 'mental' khandhas or groups of namas. It never refers to rupas or physical phenemona. .... > > According to its nature, it may be divided into 5 classes: > > > > (1) bodily agreeable feeling (kāyikā sukhā-vedanā > = > > sukha); > > > > (2) bodily disagreeable feeling (kāyikā > dukkhā-vedanā = > > dukkhā); .... S: These kinds of feelings are referred to as 'bodily'(kaayikaa)because they refer to the vedana accompanying the body consciousness (kaaya vi~n~naana)which experiences tangible objects - (solidity, temperature and motion). The name 'bodily' is somewhat misleading, I know. They are still 'mental' feelings. .... > > (3) mentally agreeable feeling (cetasikā sukhā-vedanā = > > > somanassa); > > > > (4) mentally disagreeable feeling (cetasikā > dukkhā-vedanā = > > domanassa); > > > > (5) indifferent or neutral (adukkha-m-asukhā vedanā = > upekkh& > > #257;, q.v.). .... S: So these kinds of vedana are referred to as 'mental', simply to distinguish them from the specific 'bodily' feelings above. All vedana are mental factors accompaning cittas (consciousness). .... > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understand bodily agreeable feeling to be the feeling of a > bodily > rupa as pleasant. That feeling-as-pleasant is different from the bodily > sensation so felt. At least that is how I understand it. Similarly for > unpleasant and > neutral. So, for example, strong pressure in the body would be a rupa; > if it > is unpleasant, that feeling of unpleasantness would be called > painfulness, and > the pressure would be called a pain. But the pressure sensation is a > rupa, and > its unpleasant feel would be vedana.That's the way I understand the > matter. > Goenka, it sems to me, conflates bodily rupas with their pleasant, > unpleasant, > or neutral) affective "taste". .... S: Yes, I think this is a good and fair summary. Bill, sometime, you may also like to look in 'useful posts' in the 'files' section under 'Feelings -bodily and mental) for more detail.As you quoted from CMA, all vedana refer to the 'affective experiencing...'. It also says in the Guide (p 115) that 'feeling (vedanaa) is a universal factor, the cetasika with the function of experiencing the 'flavour' of the object. Since some sort of feeling accompanies every citta, feeling serves as an important variable in terms of which consciousness can be classified.' James, I think it's good that many people, including yourself, add comments on whether Goenka's (or anyone else's) teachings conform with the Tipitaka. Also, as you rightly say, everyone has their own style which is good and healthy. However, a few more daisies along the way would not go amiss imho:-). Thanks for coming in on the other threads too, Bill. I'm glad to hear your perspective on them. Did you manage to listen to any of the recordings on dsg.org? Metta, Sarah ===== #66333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:57 pm Subject: Questioning your response nilovg Dear Jon, that is beautifully expressed: 'practice in accordance with the dhamma' > is simply the arising of panna that is conditioned by what has been > heard, understood and reflected upon in the sense of being related to > the present moment. None of these are conventional actions. It is the (latent) accumulation of previously developed > > panna that makes possible the arising of panna in this lifetime if the > right conditions are in place, and it is just this (re)arising of > accumulated panna that is the 'practice' and the development of the path.> I find this so true. I take up the thread end Jan. Trans;ator of ADL in dutch asked me to finish checking before Bgk, I am hard pressed as to time. Nina. #66334 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mutual Faith ... !!! sarahprocter... Dear Ven Samahita & all, --- Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: <...> > How is the Mutual Co-Dependence of Faith? > > Having faith, an effort is made! By making an effort, faith arises! > Having faith, awareness is setup! By setup awareness, faith arises! > Having faith focuses concentration! By concentration faith arises! > Having faith one understands! One who understands gains faith! > Having faith it is exerted; because it is exerted it gathers faith... > Having faith it is established; by being established it makes faith... > Having faith it is concentrated; being concentrated it reaps faith... > Having faith it understands; because it understands it earns faith... > > Source: Sariputta - The General of the Dhamma - > The Canonical: Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga. IV. .... S: I think this is rather an interesting extract. Often friends quote lines from other suttas along the lines of 'Having faith one understands!' or 'Having faith, an effort is made!'. Here we have the reciprocal condition of, for example, 'One who understands gains faith!' and 'By making an effort, faith arises!'. Of course, as we learn in the Abhidhamma, faith (saddha) arises with all wholesome cittas and all accompanying cetasikas support and condition each other. It's not a question of first faith, then understanding and so on, as other texts tend to be read. I'll look forward to any other similar extracts you care to share from Psm. With respect, Metta, Sarah ======== #66335 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali dictionary sarahprocter... Hi Bill, I meant to briefly reply to this note as well: --- bjones6513 wrote: > Hi Sarah, > In answer to your questions: I live in Naples, Florida and spend part of > the year in Thailand. We go back again for 3 months next October. ... S: Thanks for filling us in. Perhaps we'll meet you in Thailand sometime then as we visit quite regularly. .... > I've practiced for about 15 years mainly in the Theravadan tradition > and, > yes, I practice meditation, which seems to be a subject of controversy. ... S: Everything is a subject of controversy here. Even whether different viewpoints should be referred to as discussions or debates:-). .... > I'm very much interested in understanding the Abhidhamma which is > one reason I've subscribed to this group to begin with. .... S: You're in the right place, I think. ..... > Just finishing a book by Analayo on the Satipatthana Sutta. I highly > recommend it to anyone interested in that topic. .... S: Would you care to share any summary or conclusion or particular aspect he highlights? .... > Also, a friend attended the Big Mind/Little Mind retreat that was > mentioned. She did not get much from it although some people claimed > they felt differently but that could have just been a suggestion on the > part of the teacher. It appears that everyone wants to find a shortcut > to > realization but I have yet to find one that that works. .... S: Yes, I read the article and I see what you mean about the 'shortcut' approach. Again, I'm not sure how much it has to do with 'Dhamma', but could be interesting, nonetheless! .... > One last thing: We're looking for a teacher in the Thai Forest tradition > for when we return. Can anyone recommend one? We were thinking > about going to Kongen (sp) to look up Long Por Boon Peng. Any > thoughts? ... S: You checked the spelling to Luang Phor Boonpheng Kappako. Others might remind me if this is the same teacher that Frank and others were quoting and discussing some time back. I think so. I can't help with your search, but best wishes. Metta, Sarah ======= #66336 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas recepy. new member intro sarahprocter... Hi James, You had a nice exchange of recipes with Nina. One question at the end of yours: --- buddhatrue wrote: > "As he was sitting there, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One, "This > is half of the holy life, lord: admirable friendship, admirable > companionship, admirable camaraderie." > > "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Admirable friendship, > admirable companionship, admirable camaraderie is actually the whole > of the holy life. When a monk has admirable people as friends, > companions, & colleagues, he can be expected to develop & pursue the > noble eightfold path." > > May we all surround ourselves with admirable friends during this > holiday season. And may we all be an admirable friend to ourselves > as well. .... S: Just curious to know why your last sentence doesn't read 'And may we all be an admirable friend to others/each other' rather than 'to ourselves'? Metta, Sarah ======== #66337 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:28 am Subject: Re: processes of cittas dhammanando_... This is a re-post, minus the junk characters: Hi Scott, > Yeah, I'm still wanting to study the text and hear from others what > the Attakaariisutta.m is actually saying. The wrong view that it discusses is that of the fatalist Makkhali Gosaala, but stated in abbreviated form. In the Anguttara Commentary to this Sutta Buddhaghosa is pretty terse, presumably because he had already dealt with Makkhali's doctrine at length in the Diigha Commentary. For the meaning of the terms you were asking about see Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Saama~n~naphalasutta and its commentary (The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship, pp. 70-79). Best wishes, Dhammanando #66338 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:57 am Subject: Re: elements of experience jwromeijn Hallo Larry, Bill, Sarah (if having time), First a meta-communication. Some in DSG prefer the one-to-one messages; I prefer to adress more to a topic (a thread) than to a person. So this is a reaction to different messages, more or less about one topic My opinion is that what we call 'reality' is only a name because 'reality' as such does not exist in objective way. Said in an other way: We can not know 'reality' as such, we can only make a construct of that reality (in our mind but also with our body I think) Bill, you asked (me): B: Could you clarify your meaning of reality? Are you meaning reality in the sense of dhammas? J: I tried to explain (a) That reality, in whatever meaning, does not exist; we only can have theories of reality. (b) That there are two kind of theories on reality: conventional ones (plural) and one ultimate one (also known as 'dhamma-theory') When you ask (in #66319, I skip the Govinda-discussion): B: "So, is there being or no being in a rock?" My answer is: I can not experience that being (perhaps other human being think they can). So: No. Another question: Is there 'rockness' in a rock? My answer: there is no 'rockness'; when I as a tourist walk in the mountains, I experience the rocks there ion another way as somebody who lives there. Most important however is the question: why bother on this topic. The only reason can be a soteriological criterium: does it ('seeing things as they really are') help us in out path to awakening? I think my way of seeing it does help me (a little bit). Another point: L: Oh! I forgot. Nibbana is another kind of reality. J: Yes. And Nibbana is not made of something, Nibbana is neither nama nor rupa (I have the impression some people think Nibbana is nama) Metta Joop #66339 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/20/06 2:41:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I have been thinking of you a lot. Glad it is done. I sympathize. But > the Buddha said to Nakulapitar: not sick> > Be well, > Nina. > ======================== Thanks, Nina. You are kind as always. I was awake most of the night, despite taking one acetomenaphin w/codeine tablet every 4 hours. The pain got quite severe after the nerve block wore off. But it seems to be easing a little at the moment. Thanks for the quotation. While there is pain, I'm suffering only a little. But that's not due to the Dhamma. It's due to a wife who puts up with me being grouchy! LOL! SHE'S the one who is suffering, from GH-syndrome!! ;-)) [GH = "grouchy Howard"] With metta, Howard #66340 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:58 am Subject: Re: processes of cittas scottduncan2 Dear Venerable Dhammanando, Thanks for the below: D: "The wrong view that it discusses is that of the fatalist Makkhali Gosaala, but stated in abbreviated form...For the meaning of the terms you were asking about see Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation of the Saama~n~naphalasutta and its commentary (The Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship, pp. 70-79)." I've not got that particular volume. (Is Bh. Bodhi translating DN in its entirety? I thought he was currently working on AN.) I'll be over on campus later this week and will check the library. Sincerely, Scott. #66341 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Co to Attakaariisutta scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply; I know you are busy. N: "...'aarabbadhaatu is the effort that has been initiated. The effort that has the nature of departing from laziness is nikkhamataa (going out). The nature of steafastness (.thiti). The nature (sabhaava) of going ahead is the dhaatu of parakkama, endeavour. The nature of strength, is thaama dhaatu, the element of power. The nature of steafastness the dhaatu of .thiti. The nature of trying is the element of undertaking, upakamma. All these words are only names for effort.'...All these forms are called dhaatu, element devoid of self. There is no question of 'conventional effort'..." Yes, that is the sense of the sutta as I read it. I think that this is clear. I like the commentarial statement: 'All these words are only names for effort'. I think that the statement you make, 'There is no question of conventional effort', is correct. Sincerely, Scott. #66342 From: "bjones6513" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:28 am Subject: Re: elements of experience bjones6513 Hi Joop, I guess I'm one of those people who think Nibbana is nama in the sense that it is a dhamma in the sense that it is a mental object. Perhaps you can explain. Maybe my understanding is misconceived. thanks, Bill > > > > L: Oh! I forgot. Nibbana is another kind of reality. > J: Yes. And Nibbana is not made of something, Nibbana is neither nama > nor rupa (I have the impression some people think Nibbana is nama) > #66343 From: "bjones6513" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! bjones6513 ---Hi Sarah, Just a question about the following entry. I'm not sure what kā, etc means. Can you explain? I haven't been able to find the recordings. Where are they again? thanks. Bill > > > > > > > (1) bodily agreeable feeling (kāyikā sukhā- vedanā > > = > > > sukha); > > > Thanks for coming in on the other threads too, Bill. I'm glad to hear your > perspective on them. Did you manage to listen to any of the recordings on > dsg.org? > #66344 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questioning your response, practice. no. 1 jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > Can't write much. I'm in discomfort, and my typing w/my left hand is > diificult. So, my remarks will be brief. > You've done very will to get out this message! > In a message dated 12/19/06 9:17:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > >> Hi Howard (and Nina) >> >> I hope you don't mind if I come in with a couple of comments on your >> exchange with Nina. >> >> 1. You keep asking Nina to stipulate which conventional actions are >> taught by the Buddha, other that listening and considering, as being the >> 'practice'. As I understand it, and as has been said here many times >> before, the Buddha did not teach any conventional actions as being the >> 'practice'. What he did teach is that the hearing of the dhamma, >> reflection on what has been heard and understood and 'practice in >> accordance with the dhamma' are necessary prerequisites for the >> development of the path. That 'practice in accordance with the dhamma' >> is simply the arising of panna that is conditioned by what has been >> heard, understood and reflected upon in the sense of being related to >> the present moment. None of these are conventional actions. >> > > --------------------------------------------- > H: > I completely disagree. To me, the facts as expressed in the suttas are > patently the total opposite. We are nowhere close on this. > ---------------------------------------------- > Well I certainly had no expectation of any expression of agreement from you ;-)) But perhaps you would agree now that there are certain assumptions contained in your questions to Nina that make it difficult for a straight yes/no answer to be given (as you are urging her to do). >> 2. There is one crucial ingredient in the whole mix that I think you >> may be overlooking, and that is the panna that has already been >> accumulated. >> > ------------------------------------------- > H: > For lots of non-Buddhists as well. > ------------------------------------------ > Yes, but for these people there can not be the arising of that panna in the present lifetime, unless they hear the teachings in some form or other as a first step (note: 'hear', not 'listen to'). >> It is the (latent) accumulation of previously developed >> panna that makes possible the arising of panna in this lifetime if the >> right conditions are in place, and it is just this (re)arising of >> accumulated panna that is the 'practice' and the development of the path. >> > > ------------------------------------------ > H: > That's not practice. It is the fruit of practice. Words do have > meaning, Jon. > ----------------------------------------- > I think you see the 'practice' as one kind of kusala and the arising of panna (as the 'fruit' of that practice) as another kind of kusala. That interpretation would require an extra class of kusala not provided for in the texts. To my understanding, the 3-fold classification of kusala as dana, sila and bhavana (samatha or vipassana) is an exhaustive one. This leaves nowhere for a class of kusala called 'practice', 'advance cultivation' or the like. But there is no such problem when the references to guarding the sense-doors, right effort, etc., are understood as references to moments of actual insight (but emphasising different aspects of those moments). >> Regarding the following: >> >> ------------------------------------------ >> Howard: >> Nina, this is a return to the litany to avoid the issue. Please, >> please, be up-front on this issue, Nina: Does Khun Sujin teach that the only >> >> conventional actions constituting the practice are studying and >> contemplating? >> ------------------------------------------ >> >> I also have 2 comments: >> >> 1. While I would not attempt to speak for Acharn Sujin in, I can say >> that she certainly does *not* teach that studying and contemplating are >> conventional actions constituting the practice. >> >> Hearing the dhamma explained in a way that makes sense and is >> appropriate to our level of understanding is not a conventional action. >> It can only happen if that particular 'vipaka' is due to us. No amount >> of the conventional action known as 'listening to dhamma' or 'studying >> the dhamma' can make it happen if it is not our due. >> >> ... >> > ====================== > Well have to agree to disagree on this, Jon. It's physically too hard > for me to continue the thread. > By all means let the thread drop. But I hope you don't mind if I point out that your idea of how the teachings are explained by Acharn Sujin (e.g., that she teaches that "the only conventional actions constituting the practice are studying and contemplating") is rather wide of the mark still. Sorry to hear that you are in some discomfort. I hope it disappears soon. Jon #66345 From: "bjones6513" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: elements of experience bjones6513 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Larry, I know most people think of Lama Govinda and Tibet but this book was written before he traveled to Tibet. He was living at that time in Sri Lanka and teaching post-graduate studies in Pali Buddhism at the U of Patna, India. Anyway, I find his line of reasoning interesting, to say the least. Metta, Bill #66346 From: "bjones6513" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: elements of experience bjones6513 ---Bill: What I think Lama govinda is explaining refers to the element of experience. Experience is a disruption in the vibrational force of bhavanga, in other words, the oscillation between being and non-being. To experience, for example a rock, with our relative way of thinking, we experience maybe only hardness. In samadhi, where the oscillation between being and non-being is less intense, we have a different type of experience. I have to get to work. Metta, Bill #66347 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:30 am Subject: Re: elements of experience jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bjones6513" wrote: > > --- > > > > > Hi Joop, > I guess I'm one of those people who think Nibbana is nama in the sense > that it is a dhamma in the sense that it is a mental object. Perhaps you can > explain. Maybe my understanding is misconceived. > thanks, > Bill Hallo Bill Although I prefer to discuss my 'two kind of theories theory' of reality, I try to answer 'Try' because I'm not an expert on the topic of Nibbana; my intention is starting studying it when I'm a streamenterer: then I have time enough (I know this postponement is not a orthodox Theravada view). The Abhidhammatha Sangaha states: "The things contained in the Abhidhamma … are altogether fourfold from the standpoint of ultimate reality: consciousness, mental factors, matter, and Nibbana" (Ch I, par. 2) and: "Consciousnes (citta) and mental factors (cetasika), which compromise the four immaterial aggregates, and Nibbana, are the five kinds that are immaterial. They are also called 'name' (nama)." (Ch. VIII, par. 29) Said otherwise: nama=citta+cetasika+Nibbana. So I had to say: Nibbana is neither citta nor cetasika nor rupa. But still, when you say "Nibbana … is a mental object", I'm surprised: object of whom? Metta Joop #66348 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questioning your response, practice. no. 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/20/06 8:54:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > By all means let the thread drop. But I hope you don't mind if I point > out that your idea of how the teachings are explained by Acharn Sujin > (e.g., that she teaches that "the only conventional actions constituting > the practice are studying and contemplating") is rather wide of the mark > still. --------------------------------------- Howard: I had assumed that Nina and Khun Sujin believed that one should intentionally listen to (or read) the Dhamma, and think about it, and that such activity would eventually produce all the enlightenment factors and liberation. If that is not so, that could be stated by Nina. You, I understand, don't believe there is such a thing as conventional Dhamma practice, putting the label of 'practice' on the arising (somehow) of wisdom, whereas I believe the Buddha explicitly taught exactly complex conventional Dhamma practice. BTW, I consider the idea that wisdom, except for ultimate liberating wisdom, cannot arise in people who have never encountered the Dhamma to be a Buddhist triumphalism and parochialism that is invalid. ---------------------------------------- > > Sorry to hear that you are in some discomfort. I hope it disappears soon. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! :-) I had a terrible night, but it is better now. ==================== With metta, Howard #66349 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:25 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 157 nilovg Dear friends, We read in the scriptures about people who could attain jhåna if they cultivated the right conditions for it. Before the Buddha's enlightenment jhåna was the highest form of kusala people could attain. Jhåna, which is sometimes translated as absorption, is a high degree of calm. At the moment of jhånacitta one is free from sense- impressions and from the defilements which are bound up with them. The attainment of jhåna is extremely difficult, not everybody who applies himself to samatha can attain jhåna. However, even if one has no intention to cultivate jhåna there can be conditions for moments of calm in daily life; but there must be right understanding of the characteristic of calm and of the way to develop it. When one applies oneself to samatha one should develop five cetasikas which can eliminate the hindrances; they are the jhåna-factors. The first jhåna-factor is vitakka, which is translated into English as ``applied thinking''. Vitakka is a mental factor, a cetasika, which arises with many kinds of citta; it can arise with kusala citta as well as with akusala citta. The wholesome kind of vitakka which is developed in samatha is one of the jhåna-factors. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 88) states concerning vitakka: ... Herein, applied thinking (vitakkana) is applied thought (vitakka); hitting upon, is what is meant. It has the characteristic of directing the mind onto an object (mounting the mind on its object). Its function is to strike at and thresh--for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought. It is manifested as the leading of the mind onto an object... Vitakka, when it is a jhåna-factor, is opposed to thína and middha (sloth and torpor). In ``thinking'' of the meditation subject vitakka helps to inhibit thína and middha temporarily. Another jhåna-factor is vicåra, which is translated as ``sustained thinking''. This cetasika arises with different kinds of citta, but when it is developed in samatha, it is a jhåna-factor. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 88) states concerning vicåra: ... Sustained thinking (vicarana) is sustained thought (vicåra); continued sustainment (anusañcarana), is what is meant. It has the characteristic of continued pressure on (occupation with) the object. Its function is to keep conascent (mental) states (occupied) with that. It is manifested as keeping consciousness anchored (on that object). In samatha, vicåra keeps the citta anchored on the meditation subject. When we continue to think of wholesome subjects such as the Buddha's virtues or his teachings there is no vicikicchå or doubt. Vicåra helps to inhibit doubt. ***** Nina. #66350 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:27 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana III, 10 nilovg Dear friends, When the different objects experienced through the six doors are not clearly separated we tend to think for a long time about what is not real. The object is then a concept. We are obsessed by our thoughts and we cling to them, and thus there are still conditions for rebirth. The arahat also thinks of concepts, but he has no defilements, for him there are no conditions for rebirth. We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (II, Nidåna vagga, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Ch IV, § 40, Will), that the Buddha, while he was at Såvatthí , said to the monks: That which we will, monks, and that which we intend to do, and that with which we are occupied: - this becomes an object for the persistence of consciousness. The object, being there, becomes a basis for consciousness. Consciousness being based and having grown, there comes a bending; there being a bending, there is a going to a coming; there being a going to a coming, there is decease and rebirth; there being decease and rebirth, birth, old age and death happen in the future, and grief, lamentation, suffering, sorrow and despair. Even such is the entire mass of dukkha. This happens also if we do not will, or intend to do, but are occupied about something. But if we do not will, nor intend to do, nor are occupied about something, these things do not happen. Even such is the ceasing of this entire mass of dukkha. This sutta is about daily life. Time and again we are absorbed in our thinking and planning and there is forgetfulness of realities. We plan what we are going to do today or tomorrow. However, if there were no citta which thinks we could not plan anything. If we remember this there can be conditions for awareness of the citta which thinks and it can be known as a conditioned nåma. At that moment we are not obsessed by our thinking. There will be thinking again and again because there are conditions for it, but through awareness and right understanding it can be known as anattå. ***** Nina. #66351 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today nilovg Hi Howard, Rita is used to suffering patients and you are very lucky. How clever you write with your left hand. A walk in the park can really help with pain, I have experience that when I broke my wrist with complications. I had to have my daily walk, even with a sling. No, I do not want to drop the thread, like to take it up after Thailand, there are good points in it. I have no trouble with your asking me about Kh Sujin's teaching. Whatever you ask is fine, no problem. Pain is a complicated thing. There are so many namas and rupas, and aversion too. If we point, try to pay attention to this or that one, there is thinking, and still thinking of self or mine, even if we do not say so. Sometimes it helps to know what sati is not. Ongoing mindfulness: mostly thinking. I hope you sleep well, Nina. Op 20-dec-2006, om 13:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > ======================== > > I was awake most of the night, despite taking one acetomenaphin #66352 From: "bjones6513" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:30 am Subject: Re: elements of experience bjones6513 > > Hi Joop, The idea of Nibbana being a mental object comes from the book Abhidhamma Studies by Ven. Nyanaponika Thera. I would think that coincides with what you call nama. Object of whom? Object of our own mind. metta, Bill > > The Abhidhammatha Sangaha states: > "The things contained in the Abhidhamma … are altogether fourfold > from the standpoint of ultimate reality: consciousness, mental > factors, matter, and Nibbana" (Ch I, par. 2) > and: > "Consciousnes (citta) and mental factors (cetasika), which compromise > the four immaterial aggregates, and Nibbana, are the five kinds that > are immaterial. They are also called 'name' (nama)." (Ch. VIII, par. > 29) > > Said otherwise: nama=citta+cetasika+Nibbana. > So I had to say: Nibbana is neither citta nor cetasika nor rupa. > > But still, when you say "Nibbana … is a mental object", I'm > surprised: object of whom? > #66353 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/20/06 1:50:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > Rita is used to suffering patients and you are very lucky. How clever > you write with your left hand. ------------------------------------------- H: It's slow going! ;-) ------------------------------------------- > A walk in the park can really help with pain, I have experience that > when I broke my wrist with complications. I had to have my daily > walk, even with a sling. -------------------------------------------- H: Well, I'm staying in my pajamas. It's too hard to try to dress & undress. I *am* doing prescribed arm exercises despite the pain, and I'm applying ice. ------------------------------------------- > No, I do not want to drop the thread, like to take it up after > Thailand, there are good points in it. I have no trouble with your > asking me about Kh Sujin's teaching. Whatever you ask is fine, no > problem. -------------------------------------------- H: Very good, Nina. BTW, one place at which I do believe we have a common meeting ground on the issue of hearing & thinking over correct teachings, most especially the Buddha's, is that they DO serve as important and useful promptings to right action at the time triggering conditions arise. I do NOT underestimate the importance of this in the slightest. ---------------------------------------------- > Pain is a complicated thing. There are so many namas and rupas, and > aversion too. If we point, try to pay attention to this or that one, > there is thinking, and still thinking of self or mine, even if we do > not say so. Sometimes it helps to know what sati is not. Ongoing > mindfulness: mostly thinking. -------------------------------------------- H: Pain, when not entirely intolerable, is an excellent phenomenon to attend to, especially as regards learning first-hand about aversion, dukkha, impermanance, and sankharic construction. [What we take for "pain" is a complex construct consisting of a flux of namic & rupic conditions not all of which are unpleasant]. ------------------------------------------ > I hope you sleep well, ----------------------------------------- H: Thanks! Tonight is bound to be better than last night! LOL! ----------------------------------------- > Nina. ===================== With metta, Howard #66354 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questioning your response, practice. no. 1 jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I had assumed that Nina and Khun Sujin believed that one should > intentionally listen to (or read) the Dhamma, and think about it, and that such > activity would eventually produce all the enlightenment factors and liberation. If > that is not so, that could be stated by Nina. You, I understand, don't > believe there is such a thing as conventional Dhamma practice, putting the label of > 'practice' on the arising (somehow) of wisdom, whereas I believe the Buddha > explicitly taught exactly complex conventional Dhamma practice. > I like the way you have summarised the position. Pretty well spot on! I had not appreciated that you see a difference between my understanding of the Buddha's teaching and Acharn Sujin's. It'll be interesting to find out how others see it ;-)) Just a slight tweaking of your statement of my understanding as follows: "You, I understand, don't believe there is such a thing as conventional Dhamma practice, putting the label of 'practice' on the arising (somehow) of wisdom" The way I see it is that the Buddha did not teach a conventional Dhamma 'practice', but the arising of wisdom of the level of insight conditioned by hearing the true dhamma, appreciating it and relating it to the present moment, and this is what is (conventionally) referred to in the suttas as 'development' or (less frequently) 'practice'. There are many, many aspects to panna and its arising, and these are variously (and conventionally) described in terms of right effort, guarding the sense-doors, living in seclusion, living the holy life, being a bhikkhu, etc. > BTW, I consider the idea that wisdom, except for ultimate liberating > wisdom, cannot arise in people who have never encountered the Dhamma to be a > Buddhist triumphalism and parochialism that is invalid. > ---------------------------------------- > I think what you're saying is that people who have never encountered Buddhism in their present life can develop insight (but perhaps cannot achieve enlightenment). This comes right back to the question of what exactly is the development of insight as taught by the Buddha. If one views the Buddha's teaching as a conventional practice of guarding the sense-doors, putting forth effort, directing attention to the flow of mental states, etc, aimed at reducing the amount of aksuala arising, then yes, there would be no reason to have to hear the teachings first. Absolutely agree. Indeed, this is a strong argument in my view against that interpretation of the teachings: what's so deep and difficult about that? Surely there is never a time when such ideas are not around. By the way, do you dismiss out of hand the possibility that there are deep truths about the way things are an understanding of which requires the prior hearing about them as a trigger, i.e., that cannot be self-discovered without any outside input whatsoever? I'd be interested to know. >> Sorry to hear that you are in some discomfort. I hope it disappears soon. >> > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thank you! :-) I had a terrible night, but it is better now. > ==================== > Sorry to hear this. Hope you're able to take it easy and get some rest during the day. Jon #66355 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: elements of experience lbidd2 Hi Bill, Thanks for clarifying Lama Govinda's history. I realized after I wrote that I didn't really know much about him. Regarding vibrations and consciousness, is this a view that holds that consciousness is in some way material? Larry #66356 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: elements of experience lbidd2 Hi again Bill, B: "What I think Lama govinda is explaining refers to the element of experience. Experience is a disruption in the vibrational force of bhavanga, in other words, the oscillation between being and non-being. To experience, for example a rock, with our relative way of thinking, we experience maybe only hardness. In samadhi, where the oscillation between being and non-being is less intense, we have a different type of experience." L: Oh, I see what you are taking about. Here is how B. Bodhi explains it in his explanatory note to "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma": P.157: "When no active cognitive process is taking place, the bhavanga flows on as a series of cittas all of the same type, hanging on to a single object--either of kamma, a sign of kamma, or a sign of destiny--the same as the object of the last javana process in the immediately preceding existence. At the very moment a sense object enters a sense door, one bhavanga citta passes, known as atiita-bhavanga, the past life-continuum. Then another two bhavanga citta vibrate owing to the impact of the object, the second interrupting the stream of the bhavanga. In the sub-commentaries these are distinguished as bavanga-calana, vibrational life-continuum, and bhavang'-uppaccheda, arrest life-continuum. Thereafter, with the arising of the five-door adverting citta, the stream of consciousness emerges from the "process-freed" state and launches into a cognitive process (viithipaata)." L: I guess we could call this an oscillation between non-experience and experience, or, in your terms between being and non-being. When there is the consciousness of (experience of) a rock there is the experience of any of a number of possible dhammas, e.g., hardness, color, taste, sound, smell which can be recognized as a sign of a rock. A sign is an idea. In jhana samadhi only a sign can be the object of consciousness. It isn't so much that the oscillation between experience and non-experience is of a different intensity. It is more that a sign is different from a bodily sensation. Ultimately a sign is less "real". But the concentration (samadhi) is very focused and jhana experience is quite profound. Nina could explain this better than I can, but she has ten thousand literary obligations to see to, PLUS she has to cook Christmas dinner ;-)) After jhana insight might arise. The object of insight is always a reality rather than a sign, but a very focused concentration (samadhi) is also necessary. Larry #66357 From: JC Mendoza Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Insects and the Precept Against Killing jcmendoza1000 Hi everyone: I read the article by Ajaan Lere Dhmmadaro, is it true that those other consciousnesses that inhabit our body influence our thinking? I find this, as well as other things in the article like having to be aware of these consciousnesses as part of our advancement in the Dhamma, to be very doubtful. It says: So altogether there are three: Your own consciousness, and there's only one of that. And then all the many consciousnesses lurking in your body, so many that you can't say exactly how many there are. The ones with bodies you can see are more than many. And as for the ones with no bodies, but are living in your body, there's no telling how many there are. Now, it's because there are so many of them, with so many agendas, that the Buddha tells us not to go joining in with them. They're not us, not ours, none of our business. Sometimes we sit around, with absolutely nothing wrong, and all of a sudden one thing starts leading to another inside the mind. We don't want it to happen, but the mind seems to take on a mind of its own. That's a clear case of these consciousnesses, these crazy consciousnesses, getting into the act, seeping into our own consciousness and making us fall in line with them. These consciousnesses that lurk in our bodies without any bodies of their own: They can get angry, too, you know. They can get greedy and deluded, they can feel love and hate, just like us. Once they start feeling things like this, and they're right next to us, our own consciousness follows along with them, without our even realizing it. This is why there are so many issues in the heart. I'm doubting the truth of this article very much, did the Awakened One ever say anything about these consciousnesses? bjones6513 wrote: > Hi Sarah and Others, Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo has an interesting article titled "Consciousness" which can be found at www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/consciousness.html. He talks about a third kind of consciousness inhabiting our bodies. Worms,germs and all kinds of little animals are in our bodies. He states that there are lots of minds in our mind. Many of these bacterial symbionts such as the mitochondria have over time become part of our own cells. If anyone gets a chance to read this article let me know what you think. #66358 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:23 pm Subject: Power of Faith ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: What and How is the Power of Faith? It is not shaken sceptical non-faith, thus is it the Power of Faith. It is the Power of Faith by stiffening & stabilizing other qualities. It is the Power of Faith by terminating the bad mental defilements. It is the Power of Faith by purifying penetration to understanding. It is the Power of Faith by calming, steadying, & focusing the mind. It is the Power of Faith by clearing, cleansing & purifying the mind. It is the Power of Faith in the sense of arrival at subtle distinction. It is the Power of Faith in the sense of penetration to even higher. It is the Power of Faith in the sense of convergence upon actuality. It is the Power of Faith in the sense of establishing in cessation! This, so and such is the mighty Power of Faith... Source: Sariputta - The General of the Dhamma - The Canonical: Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga. XIX. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Friendship is the Greatest Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon <...> #66359 From: JC Mendoza Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: permission from parents jcmendoza1000 Hi Ven. Dhammanando, Come again? What you're saying is that one can ordain even without the permission of the adoptive parents, is that it? Is there no text about cases of adopted people who ordained and if they have to obtain permission from his real parents if these real parents aren't deceased yet? #66360 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Christmas recepy. new member intro buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > May we all surround ourselves with admirable friends during this > > holiday season. And may we all be an admirable friend to ourselves > > as well. > .... > S: Just curious to know why your last sentence doesn't read 'And may we > all be an admirable friend to others/each other' rather than 'to > ourselves'? Actually, after I posted that, I thought to myself that it should have read "May we all be an admirable friend to ourselves and others." I wanted to emphasize the `being a friend to oneself' because it is soooooo difficult to find admirable friends in one's daily life. Sure, we can stay away from drug dealers/users, thieves, liars, etc., but then we will find that most of our friends can still lead us astray with petty desires of shopping, entertainment, sexual lust, etc. It is hard to find a truly admirable friend, as a householder. So, I suggested that we need to be an admirable friend to ourselves (and others). We need to be strong enough to keep ourselves on the path when others lead us astray (purposefully or not). And to be an admirable friend who tells others the proper way to be, even when it goes against the grain. This is very, very difficult! But it is the entirety of the holy life!! Metta, James #66361 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:48 pm Subject: Re: Questioning your response, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Howard and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > I do not underestimate understanding. Wisdom is the sword that cuts > away defilements. But you say that listening and contemplating is all that is > required. As far as I'm concerned, that is not the teaching of the Buddha. > --------------------------------------------- Right, this is not the teaching of the Buddha- it is the teaching of Gnostic Yoga. Granted, there are those who will become enlightened simply by listening and contemplating, but they must be ripe for enlightenment by having a sufficient accumulation of wisdom. This is not what the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught a path of practice which can lead to enlightenment in one lifetime, regardless of one's accumulations. Metta, James #66362 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) buddhatrue Hi Melek, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, melek cilingir wrote: > > dear sarah, > > > "We are inclined to be heedless with regard to abstinence from wrong > > speech. When others speak in an unpleasant way about people we may find it > > hard not to join in the conversation. > ... Since we will be engaged in conversation with others > > anyway we should learn how we can turn the conversation into > > an opportunity for wholesomeness. " > > thank you for this. > i was about to say something about james' post including insulting > words about goenka. Sorry for offending your sensibilities. Your "non-saying" already says volumes. I will admit that I probably went too far in my description of Goenka, but I have a great aversion toward him (personally) and his practice. However, it's not good to always hear from the cheering section. I offer you an alternative viewpoint. i should thank him for giving those links which can > be helpful for us to understand his point. Thank you. I hope you found them helpful. Metta, James #66363 From: Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:12 pm Subject: A word for the day jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... With his wealth collected justly, won through his own efforts, he shares both food and drink with beings who are in need. Itivuttaka 66 Posted dinesh #66364 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 12:55 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 616- Wholesome Deeds(m) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd The paying of respect to those who deserve respect is another one of the “bases of meritorious deeds” and this is included in síla. Respect is due to monks, novices, parents, teachers and elderly people. We can express respect and politeness through our conduct in body and speech. We may have selfish motives when we are polite, for example when we wish for a good reputation or when we want to obtain favours. That is not the way of kusala which is respect. We can pay respect with kusala citta, and then respect is sincere. We should pay respect to the monks because they have left their homes for the homeless life in order to strive after the virtues of the ariyans. The goal of monkhood is arahatship and thus the monks can remind us of the virtues of the ariyan Sangha, even if they are not arahats. Laypeople can pay respect to monks by clasping their hands and bowing their head, or by prostrating the body and touching the floor with the forehead, the forearms and knees. When one shows one’s respect in this way one should do it thoughtfully and sincerely, remembering that this is another opportunity for kusala citta. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66365 From: Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:35 am Subject: So sweet dhamma.... jayasinghe.mudiyanse@... Generosity, kind words, doing a good turn for others, and treating all people alike: these bonds of sympathy are to the world what the lynch-pin is to the chariot wheel. Anguttara Nikaya II, 32 May all beings be happy & well. See again Saturday, dinesh #66366 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas recepy. new member intro upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Sarah) - > This is very, very difficult! But it is the entirety of the holy > life!! > > Metta, > James =========================== Wonderful, James! Sadhu x 3!! And, Sarah, thank you for pursuing this, enabling James to expand & expound on it so beautifully! :-) With metta, Howard #66367 From: "Leo" Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:53 am Subject: what can be the right balance leoaive Hi Some time ago I found that there is Buddha foot step somewhere on a hill in eastern Sri Lanka. I guess it is safe to be on a hill, it is protective from tsunamis. Later I found from talking to south asian man, that the higher you are in a mountain, the more wind you get. So you have more risk of Thaifoon and problems because of that. What do you think would be the right hight and elevation? With Metta Leo #66368 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:10 am Subject: Re: processes of cittas dhammanando_... Hi Scott, > I've not got that particular volume. (Is Bh. Bodhi translating DN in > its entirety? I thought he was currently working on AN.) Yes, he's currently working on the AN. He isn't translating the DN., but in the past has published four translations of single Suttas along with their commentary and sub-commentary (in abridged form). They are all published by the BPS in Kandy and well worth getting. Here are the titles: * The Discourse on the Root of Existence (Muulapariyaaya Sutta) * The Discourse on The All-embracing Net of Views (Brahmajaala Sutta) * The Great Discourse on Causation (Mahaanidaana Sutta) * The Discourse on the Roots of Recluseship (Saama~n~naphala Sutta) > I'll be over on campus later this week and will check the library. If it is not there, let me know. Best wishes, Dhammanando #66369 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:50 am Subject: Re: processes of cittas scottduncan2 Dear Venerable Dhammanando, Alas, these volumes (thanks for the titles) are not in the collections at the University of Alberta libraries. D: "...They are all published by the BPS in Kandy and well worth getting..." There's nothing for it but a trip to the local bookstore. D: "...If it is not there, let me know." When you have a moment, if you don't mind, I'd appreciate a bit on the particular words in question as cited (you know, in the interest of science) - no rush. Thanks for your consideration, Sincerely, Scott. #66370 From: JC Mendoza Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: permission from parents jcmendoza1000 Also, what is the source of the texts below which you posted before? Is it the Vinaya Atthakatha? Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: Hi JC, > Well, what about this case? > "The mother and father are deceased. Their boy has grown up in the > company of [relatives] such as his maternal aunt. When he is being > given the going forth, his relatives start a quarrel or criticize it. > Therefore, in order to stop the quarrel, he should obtain their leave > before being given the going forth. But if given the going forth > without having obtained their leave there is no offence." > > If there is no offence when going forth without leave from an aunt who > took care of him, then how much more someone whom you really have no > blood relations with? I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. The rule is in fact the same in both cases: "They who undertook to feed him in his childhood are called "mother" and "father", and with respect to these the principle is *just the same as above*. The son [is reckoned as] one living dependent on himself, not on a mother and father." The phrase "just the same as above" refers to the immediately preceding clause concerning a boy brought up by his extended family. So in both cases he is advised to obtain permission from his childhood guardians, but if this is refused he may ordain nevertheless. Best wishes, Dhammanando #66372 From: "jcmendoza1000" Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:53 am Subject: Uposatha jcmendoza1000 To Ven. Dhammanando: Is it alright to eat salt and drink vegetable juice without pulp after twelve noon during Uposathas? And is it alright to play games like billiards, chess, checkers on Uposatha days? -JC #66373 From: melek cilingir Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) melekcilingir hi james, you did not offend my sensibilities. i just could make nothing of the aggressive wording. stating your point would be fairly enough. i admire your sincere explanation about the aversion. hope you get rid of it. thanks again for the links. be happy melek #66374 From: "chandrafabian" Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: paticcasamuppada chandrafabian > ========= >Thank you Nina and Sarah, We have Tipitaka, PTS and BPS or some Myanmar, but Attakatha (in English) is very limited, especially we desperately need Abhidhamma Athakatha to clarify some hesitation about the source of some Dhamma Phrase. I have Visuddhi Magga, and I would appreciated if you tell me where I could find Abhidhamma Athakatha in English. with metta, Fabian #66375 From: "bjones6513" Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:30 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) bjones6513 --- > Hi James, I appreciate different view points and I think its good to discuss them. That's how we learn. I didn't realize I was a cheering section, seeing how I don't practice his technique, but I don't want to discourage anyone by harsh words from trying it and practicing it as I have done in the past. Have a happy holiday season. Metta, Bill #66376 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) buddhatrue Hi Melek, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, melek cilingir wrote: i admire your sincere explanation about the aversion. hope you get rid of it. We all have aversions while still unenlightened; no big deal to admit that. I have no desire to "get rid" of my aversions- that would just be another aversion! ;-)) You wanting me to be free of aversions is your aversion. Passive aggressive is still agressive. I prefer the more direct approach. ;-)) > > thanks again for the links. > be happy > melek Metta, James #66377 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:00 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) buddhatrue Hi Bill, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bjones6513" wrote: > > Hi James, > I appreciate different view points and I think its good to discuss them. > That's how we learn. I didn't realize I was a cheering section, Honestly, I wasn't thinking about you specifically when I wrote that. I was thinking about how Goenka is pretty much universally accepted and cheered. To me, this is a real shame because he doesn't teach what the Buddha taught (Does it help that I state that in a non- agressive way? Are you now more opt to believe me than when I refer to Goenka as an egomanical liar? Really, I don't think it matters how I say it- you are still going to believe what you wish). seeing > how I don't practice his technique, but I don't want to discourage anyone > by harsh words from trying it and practicing it as I have done in the > past. This I really don't understand. You don't practice his technique but you think it is okay for others to do so? What, it's not good enough for you but it's fine for others? You aren't making any sense and are coming across to me as somewhat hypocritical. > Have a happy holiday season. > Metta, Bill Metta, James #66378 From: "bjones6513" Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:39 am Subject: Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) bjones6513 Hi James, I guess I tend to judge the merit of any philosophical or religious practice based on how it helps one with their daily life. Maybe this is one of my flaws. But I do stand by my point that Goenka has helped many. Maybe I'm ignorant, but I still don't understand your reasoning other than a negative emotional outburst. Bill #66379 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:59 am Subject: Nitesh from Nepal -pic sarahprocter... Dear Nitesh,(James & all), With Jon's help, the great pic you sent me has now been put in the DSG photo album, next to Dinesh from Doha. We have no excuses for confusing your names anymore. You also kindly replied to my (and other) comments to you here and I know others will be interested to read them too - I hope that's OK: N:>Thanks for your suggestion. I am clear about what you have written. Its time to face the actual truth, watch the movement, change... Impermanence... I have been meditating twice daily for an hour and I am quite satisfied with my meditation. I can feel "Anitta" and I have seen the spark, my destination, maybe long way to go though. Sila (Discipline) is must to achieve something, and after my return, I have been leading a disciplined life. I never knew the charm of being disciplined.... I will try to be in Sila and practice Dhamma.... Its nice to know that you were in Nepal. I have been travelling to different places of Nepal... I design tours... Looking for peace, once I trekked all alone above the mountains to a place called Lo-Manthang (Upper Mustang, 4 days walk from Jomsom, 2 hours walk to Tibet from there ) but did not find one. Just was refreshed for a while... ..... S: The reason I asked whether you do any trekking is because I believe that whether you're sitting cross-legged in a quiet (or noisy) room, designing your tours or trekking, there can be the development of mindfulness. No need to wait or not follow one's normal activities. Also, I believe that there is sila at any moment of good (kusala) thought or action. For example, when you show kindness to your clients, show generosity or when there is reflection on the Buddha's teachings, there is sila too. .... N: I dont know how to post pictures in the album.. Just am sending you one during my trip to Lomanthang. The picture is not in right position as there was no one to take one, so I had use 10 secs Auto Click... .... S: It's a great pic and as I said, now in the album. If anyone else would like assistance, pls ask James or Jon (or me!). .... N:If you visit Nepal, again in your life time, it would be a great pleasure to meet you personally. I heartily welcome you to Nepal! .... S: Thank you. That would be a pleasure for us too! Metta, Sarah ======== #66380 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:42 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 158 nilovg Dear friends, Another jhåna-factor is píti, translated as ``rapture'', ``enthusiasm'' or ``happiness''. Píti can also arise with lobha-múla- citta and then it is akusala. The wholesome kind of píti, arising with kusala citta, which is developed in samatha is a jhåna-factor. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 94) states concerning píti: ... It refreshes (píùayati), thus it is happiness (píti). It has the characteristic of endearing (sampiyåna). Its function is to refresh the body and the mind; or its function is to pervade (thrill with rapture). It is manifested as elation. But it is of five kinds as minor happiness, momentary happiness, showering happiness, uplifting happiness, and pervading (rapturous) happiness. According to the Visuddhimagga (IV, 99) the jhåna-factor píti is the ``pervading happiness'' which is the ``root of absorption''. When píti is developed in samatha it inhibits the hindrance which is ill- will (vyåpåda). However, keen understanding is needed in order to know whether there is akusala píti which arises with attachment or kusala píti. Even when one thinks that there is wholesome enthusiasm about a meditation subject, there may be clinging. The jhåna-factor píti takes an interest in the meditation subject without clinging. Wholesome píti which delights in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha or in another meditation subject refreshes the mind and then there is no aversion, no boredom as to kusala. Another jhåna-factor is sukha. This jhåna-factor is not pleasant bodily feeling, but it is happy mental feeling or somanassa. Sukha which is developed in samatha is happy feeling about a meditation subject. However, as we know, happy feeling arises also with attachment. Paññå should know precisely when happy feeling is akusala and when it is kusala. The jhåna-factor which is wholesome sukha inhibits the hindrances which are restlessness and regret (uddhacca and kukkucca). When there is wholesome happy feeling about a meditation subject there is no restlessness and regret. Píti and sukha are not the same. Sukha, which is translated as happiness, bliss, ease or joy, is happy feeling. Píti, which is translated as joy, rapture, zest, and sometimes also as happiness, is not feeling; it is not vedanåkkhandha, but saòkhårakkhandha (the khandha which is all cetasikas, except vedanå and saññå). When reading the English translations, we have to find out from the context which cetasika is referred to, píti or sukha. ****** Nina. #66381 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:45 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana IV, 1. nilovg Dear friends, Letter about Vipassanå 4 We read in the "Kindred Sayings" (I,Sagåthå vagga, Ch IV, Måra, 2, par. 7, The Sphere of Sense) that the Buddha taught the monks about the six spheres of contact. Måra wanted to confuse the monks and therefore he made a terrible noise so that they thought that the earth was splitting open. The Buddha told the monks that it was only Måra. He addressed Måra in a verse: Sights, sounds, and tastes and smells and tangibles, All sense impressions and mental objects, These are the direful bait that draws the world; Herein the world infatuated lies. All this if he get past and leave behind, The Buddha's follower, with heedful mind, Passing beyond the range of Måra's might, Like the high sun fills the world with light. We then read that Måra was sad and disappeared. We are engrossed in the sense objects, but through the development of right understanding we can pass beyond the range of Måra. According to the commentary to this sutta , the "Saratthappakåsiní" (Thai edition p. 329), the range of Måra are the three classes of planes where one can be reborn: the sensuous planes, the rúpa-brahma planes and the arúpa-brahma planes. When there is no more rebirth one escapes the snare of Måra. We are born in the human plane which is a sensuous plane. Our birth in the human plane is conditioned by kusala kamma performed by cittas of the sense sphere, kåmåvacara cittas. In the human plane there are opportunities time and again to experience sense objects. We are engrossed in all the sense objects and we keep on thinking about them. All these objects can only appear because there are cittas arising in processes which experience objects through the six doors. We may have learnt this through the study of the Abhidhamma but since we are so absorbed in the objects themselves we forget to consider citta, the reality which experiences them. The Abhidhamma teaches us about daily life and thus the study of it can motivate us to find out more about all realities which occur in our daily life. The Abhidhamma can be a supporting condition for the arising of sati, mindfulness, which is directly aware of realities which appear. When visible object impinges on the eyesense there are conditions for seeing, but visible object appears only for an extremely short moment. It is the same with sound and the other sense objects, they are all insignificant dhammas, they appear just for a short moment and then they fall away. Also the cittas which arise in the different sense-door processes and experience the objects fall away very rapidly. Cittas arise and fall away but each citta is succeeded by the next citta and thus it seems that citta can stay. ******* Nina. #66382 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today nilovg Hi Howard, I do not mail now, overburdened with work, but a sick person should have some attention. Op 20-dec-2006, om 21:06 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > H: Well, I'm staying in my pajamas. It's too hard to try to dress & > undress. > I *am* doing prescribed arm exercises despite the pain, and I'm > applying ice. > ------------------------------------------- > N: Quatch. Lodewijk said: nonsense. You can always pull over some jogging attire. > > -------------------------------------------- > H: one place at which I do believe we have a common > meeting ground on the issue of hearing & thinking over correct > teachings, most > especially the Buddha's, is that they DO serve as important and useful > promptings to right action at the time triggering conditions arise. > I do NOT > underestimate the importance of this in the slightest. > ---------------------------------------------- > N: Then you have come to the essence. You hear or read and then sa~n`naa does the job of right remembrance, and it supports sati. Especially when you see: this makes sense, I can verify it in my life. That is a degree of understanding and this understanding is accumulated, nobody can stop it. --------- > N: Pain is a complicated thing. There are so many namas and rupas, > and > > aversion too. If we point, try to pay attention to this or that one, > > there is thinking, and still thinking of self or mine, even if we do > > not say so. Sometimes it helps to know what sati is not. Ongoing > > mindfulness: mostly thinking. > > -------------------------------------------- > H: Pain, when not entirely intolerable, is an excellent phenomenon > to attend > to, especially as regards learning first-hand about aversion, dukkha, > impermanance, and sankharic construction. [What we take for "pain" > is a complex > construct consisting of a flux of namic & rupic conditions not all > of which are > unpleasant]. > ------------------------------------------ > N: But we can learn: there is not pain all the time, there are also > seeing, sound, hearing. At the moment of seeing or hearing there is > not the experience of pain at the same time. Only one citta at a > time. Check it, check it. > There are rupas (you call them bodily sensations) such as > hardness, and also heat, pain can be fiery. There is unpleasant > bodily feeling, just a moment of vipaaka, and mental unhappy > feeling which seems to last (Grr). As to impermanence; no, the true characteristic cannot be known so long as insight does not realize the arising and falling away of one nama or rupa at a time. Most important: not to say to yourself: I shall attend to this or that nama or rupa. Let sati do the work. The hearing and considering can trigger (as you say) sati and pa~n~na, LET them do their work. **** Nina. > #66383 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Shoulder-Bicep Surgery Today upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/21/06 1:24:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > >H: one place at which I do believe we have a common > >meeting ground on the issue of hearing &thinking over correct > >teachings, most > >especially the Buddha's, is that they DO serve as important and useful > >promptings to right action at the time triggering conditions arise. > >I do NOT > >underestimate the importance of this in the slightest. > >---------------------------------------------- > >N: Then you have come to the essence. > You hear or read and then sa~n`naa does the job of right remembrance, > and it supports sati. Especially when you see: this makes sense, I > can verify it in my life. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Without a doubt that is so. It is crystal clear. ---------------------------------------------- That is a degree of understanding and this > > understanding is accumulated, nobody can stop it. > --------- > >N: Pain is a complicated thing. There are so many namas and rupas, > >and > >>aversion too. If we point, try to pay attention to this or that one, > >>there is thinking, and still thinking of self or mine, even if we do > >>not say so. Sometimes it helps to know what sati is not. Ongoing > >>mindfulness: mostly thinking. > > > >-------------------------------------------- > >H: Pain, when not entirely intolerable, is an excellent phenomenon > >to attend > >to, especially as regards learning first-hand about aversion, dukkha, > >impermanance, and sankharic construction. [What we take for "pain" > >is a complex > >construct consisting of a flux of namic &rupic conditions not all > >of which are > >unpleasant]. > >------------------------------------------ > >N: But we can learn: there is not pain all the time, there are also > >seeing, sound, hearing. At the moment of seeing or hearing there is > >not the experience of pain at the same time. Only one citta at a > >time. Check it, check it. > >There are rupas (you call them bodily sensations) such as > >hardness, and also heat, pain can be fiery. There is unpleasant > >bodily feeling, just a moment of vipaaka, and mental unhappy > >feeling which seems to last (Grr). > As to impermanence; no, the true characteristic cannot be known so > long as insight does not realize the arising and falling away of one > nama or rupa at a time. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I have at least come close to that - at the one Goenka retreat I attended. But at a grosser level, it is more easily observed that pain may increase, decrease, and cease, and while that isn't the ultimate apprehension of anicca, it is still insightful. ----------------------------------------- > Most important: not to say to yourself: I shall attend to this or > that nama or rupa. Let sati do the work. The hearing and considering > can trigger (as you say) sati and pa~n~na, LET them do their work. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: When meditating in an in-tandem fashion, cultivating both calm and insight, it is the norm to "open up" to whatever arises after a point. The expenditure of energy, once one has attained a satisfactory degree of calm and clarity, is not directed to a specific subject, but to "staying present" in the sense of not getting lost in thought or in states marked by sloth & torpor. THAT effort IS made, else one is no longer meditating. Just staying present then deepens and strengthens the process. ===================== With metta, Howard P.S. Please tell Lodewijk not to worry about my getting out of the house. ;-) On Xmas Eve I'll be driving to our daughter-in-law's parents' house for dinner and then to attend midnite mass at their church, and the next day I'll be driving to Connecticut for Xmas day with a bunch of Rita's relatives - a number of the spouses are Christian. Also please tell Lodewijk that I won't be wearing my pajamas either time! LOLOL! #66384 From: melek cilingir Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) melekcilingir hi james, j: You wanting me to be free of aversions is your aversion m: not at all! i thought you were suffering from this and wished you to get rid of it. j:Passive aggressive is still agressive. I prefer the more direct approach. ;-)) well, enjoy then! melek #66385 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:09 pm Subject: Goenka (Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j)) buddhatrue Hi Bill, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "bjones6513" wrote: > > Hi James, > I guess I tend to judge the merit of any philosophical or religious > practice based on how it helps one with their daily life. How are you to be the judge of that??? Maybe this is > one of my flaws. But I do stand by my point that Goenka has helped > many. Helped them how?? I believe he has lead them astray. Any teaching other than the Buddha's will lead people astray. (And from a personal perspective, he lead me astray for 15 years.) > Maybe I'm ignorant, but I still don't understand your reasoning other > than a negative emotional outburst. Well, I have throughly explained and so has Howard and Sarah (who also see the faults in Goenka's teaching). I don't know if it will help any, but I will give one more explanation. However, I am too busy today as I am teaching seven classes and have only two breaks. And I have dinner plans. So, I will post another explanation of the faults of Goenka's teaching this weekend. > Bill Metta, James #66386 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Goenka (Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j)) upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Bill & Sarah) - In a message dated 12/21/06 8:20:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Well, I have throughly explained and so has Howard and Sarah (who > also see the faults in Goenka's teaching). ======================= I think he is in error with regard to to the meaning of 'vedana', I think that he is incorrect in thinking that vipassana bhavana is exactly mindfulness of bodily sensation, though mindfulness of the body can be a complete meditative practice (as in MN 119), and I think he is in error in saying "vipassana" when he should be saying "vipassana bhavana". However, I personally benefited tremendously from my 10-day Goenka retreat, gaining my first genuine insight into personal self being illusion; so I cannot dismiss his teaching as totally as you. I should add that I did not find his body-sweeping technique suitable for me outside of retreat. For the long run my current style of meditation, inadequately summarized as "breath as centerpoint, but being open to all dhammas that arise," seems best for me. With metta, Howard #66387 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:35 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 617- Wholesome Deeds(n) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd We may pay respect to the Triple Gem in prostrating before a Buddha statue and reciting words of praise while we think of the excellent qualities of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. However, there are not kusala cittas all the time. When we experience some bodily discomfort akusala cittas with aversion tend to arise. Or we may think of other things with attachment or aversion. We should know the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta, they arise because of their own conditions and they are not self. While we are reciting words of praise to the Triple Gem there can be mindfulness of realities which appear, even if these are akusala dhammas. Mindfulness of whatever reality appears is the best way of respect we can give to the Buddha since we then follow what he taught. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66388 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka sarahprocter... Hi Nina & Ken H, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > I read something in T.A. about eyesense being sluggish, but no time > now to look it up. > Nina > Op 18-dec-2006, om 11:32 heeft ken_aitch het volgende geschreven: > > >S: I didn't find any quote, however, as referring to > > strong or weak eye consciousness as such, though. (I'll also raise > > this in Bkk). .... S: Yes, 'eyesense being sluggish' or strong or weak as I suggested (according to kamma), but not that I recall seeing to 'eye consciousness'... Metta, Sarah ========= #66389 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Insects and the Precept Against Killing sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando, Bill & all, --- Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > > a) Are viruses living beings? > > b)Are bacteria living beings? > > I don't think this is known for sure. The Pali texts refer to the "two > hundred families of worms" that share our bodies, and since the texts > seem to assume that they inhabit everyone's body one can't limit the > meaning to just tapeworms and the like, which afflict only some > persons. And so it might be tempting to identify these with bacteria > and viruses. ... S: Thank you for your response (#66316) which seems very sensible to me. Bill, thanks also for your response (#66318), Lee Dhammadharo article link and the 'German solution'. I had a quick look at the article but would rather leave it to others to give a more considered response. At a very quick look, it seemed that he was using the invasion by worms and small insects as an analogy for the different kinds of cittas (consciousness) arising in a day? There also seemed to be rather a lot of focus......You could consider posting the article in short installments (one or two paras a day) for further discussion, if you think it would be interesting. Ven Dhammadharo may have comments to add on the 'German solution'. In the end, each has their own kamma which will bring results accordingly. I think that when someone calls in the pest control company, it's a good example of how we really can only know our own and not the others' cittas at any time. And of course, these cittas change all the time too...... Metta, Sarah ======== #66390 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Insects and the Precept Against Killing upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/22/06 12:24:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > I > think that when someone calls in the pest control company, it's a good > example of how we really can only know our own and not the others' cittas > at any time ====================== Each person will have to decide for him/herself whether to take lives that are "low on the scale", but hiring a pest-control company as a means to avoid direct killing reminds me that one who hires a (successful) hit man is charged with murder in courts of law. Hypocrisy is hypocrisy, no matter who the hypocrites are. With metta, Howard #66391 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Goenka (Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j)) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, James, Bill, Melek & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: > >J: Well, I have throughly explained and so has Howard and Sarah (who > > also see the faults in Goenka's teaching). > ======================= ... S: I had tried to stay out of the controversy, but sometimes one's name pops in anyway, lol! ... >H: I think he is in error with regard to to the meaning of 'vedana', .... S: Agreed, as we've both discussed .... >H: I > think that he is incorrect in thinking that vipassana bhavana is exactly > mindfulness of bodily sensation, .... S: Agreed,I don't think the practice taught has anything to do with 'vipassana'(insight, highly developed panna), but see below. ... >H: though mindfulness of the body can be a > complete > meditative practice (as in MN 119), .... S: NOT Agreed! Yes, if one reads MN 119 in isolation, it can be read that way, just as if one reads a sutta just on vedana, or just on kamma or just on the 4 elements, they can be taken (wrongly) as 'a complete meditative practice'. I believe such interpretations miss the point of the development of satipattthana - that it refers to the development of sati sampajanna (mindfulness and right understanding) of whatever appears and that ideas of selection and control are the antithesis to the core teachings of anicca, dukkha and anatta. .... >H: and I think he is in error in saying > "vipassana" when he should be saying "vipassana bhavana". .... S: I think both are equally misleading in context. Actually, I thought the definitions James gave of the various terms - vipassana, satipatthana and so on were quite good. Vipassana refers to 'insight' and specifically to vipassana nanas(i.e.~naanas of levels/kinds of insight resulting from the development of satipatthana, as I understand). .... >H: However, I > personally > benefited tremendously from my 10-day Goenka retreat, gaining my first > genuine > insight into personal self being illusion; so I cannot dismiss his > teaching as > totally as you. ... S: In any case, we can never blame a teacher for any 'waste of time' or misunderstandings on our part. These are due to our own wrong views and tendencies to follow the wrong path. In other words, it is the way samsara goes.....lots and lots of wrong view accumulated. My own personal encounters with Goenka and one course with him in 1974 were pleasant and interesting experiences. I don't have any animosity towards him at all, though I'm baffled as to why some of his comments which are so clearly erroneous (such as the vedana issue)were never corrected by him. I suspect it was because he was passing on U Ba Khin's teaching intact. The same with other teachers such as John Coleman. Even back then, it would be pointed out to Goenka that the terminology was misleading and he was studying some Abhidhamma too. .... >H: I should add that I did not find his body-sweeping technique > suitable > for me outside of retreat. .... S: Funnily enough, I've never considered it to be anything 'Buddhist' at all, but I think it does have health/therapeutic value and reminds me of a similar effect from Qi Gong, Tai chi and acupuncture - a 'clearing' of blocked energy or chi channels. So maybe it had health benefits at least, James! I remember Goenka used to have all sorts of tales (inc. his own personal one) of great health benefits. I think this is quite possible. If I have a cold or stiff limb,for example, I may follow something like this. .... >H: For the long run my current style o > meditation, > inadequately summarized as "breath as centerpoint, but being open to all > dhammas > that arise," seems best for me. .... S: And to make a controversial topic even more controversial, I personally doubt that focus or concentration on the breath as is common with so-called 'anapanasati followers' today has anything more to do with the Buddha's teachings and vipassana than Goenka's 'vipassana practice'. Again, all sorts of health benefits may accrue and again these shouldn't be understimated. How many moments of such practice are kusala or skilful in terms of the development of satipatthana -- well, only direct panna (understanding) will know. Meanwhile, I encourage everyone to do what they wish and find helpful with lots of daisies and friendliness:-) Metta, Sarah p.s Bill & Melek and anyone else -- if you have a photo to add the album, we'll all be happy! ====== #66392 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:16 pm Subject: [dsg] elements of experience / was Re: Gratitude vs kamma-vipaka sarahprocter... Hi Ken H & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: >S: 1. That I don't consider either alternative to be quite right, > certainly not the latter one. Instead there are several other factors > to consider, especially the sensitivity of the eye-base, I'd say. > > As we know, in the sensuous realm, all six bases (vatthus) arise and > fall away except for those blind or deaf from conception. > -------------- > > When you say 'as we know' I get the feeling this has already been > thoroughly discussed at DSG. Sorry if I have being inattentive, but > why, in this case, do you distinguish between those who are blind from > conception and those who become blind later? .... S: I think you'll remember posts about different kinds of patisandhi citta ( birth consciousness), such as those with no roots, those with 2 roots and those with 3 roots. If someone is born with no roots in the human realm (ahetuka kusala vipaka), they are handicapped from birth. There is no eye-sense or ear-sense (so no seeing or hearing) or there are other defects. The birth is still the result of kusala kamma, but not of the degree as that with produces patisandhi with roots. If someone is blind, deaf or handicapped from birth, we cannot assume this is the cause, however. (See ADL chapters 11 & 12. and also CMA, chV, p194-5) ..... > --------------------------- > S: > (In the rupa-brahma > realm, there are no bases for smelling, tasting and > body-consciousness, these said to be coarser than those bases for > seeing and hearing. I've read that the physical components of the > organs exist there, but not the sensitivity to serve as vatthus.) > > 2. So, in the 'vision-impaired', the eye-base is there, but the > eye-sensitivity or vatthu which has to act as prenascence and support > condition for seeing consciousness throughout life may be weakened, > thus affecting the nature of the consciousness. Whether we can refer > to it as 'weakened', I'm not sure. .... S: I just came across something in CMA on what I wrote here while looking for the other ref. See CMA, Ch 111, (p145, 'in the sense world, etc) Yes, your comment above is how I understand it. When you say 'may be weakened', we have to remember that eye-sense or eye-sensitivity also rises and falls away, being conditioned by kamma at each moment. For example, during my recent illness, some days (or rather some moments of some days), my eye-sense was 'weak' or 'sluggish' and the seeing consciousness affected as a result. At other times, it was 'normal'. .... > I think I understand, which, by the way, reinforces my appreciation > for these discussions. They make the Dhamma (gradually) clearer. .... S: Yes, gradually:-). If we didn't consider and discuss, we'd really think the main cause of improvement was the glasses rather than kamma! ... --------------------------------------- > S: > 3. The seeing will also be affected by the nature of the visible > object appearing (how bright or dim, for example) and the 'age' of the > visible object when the consciousness arises. We had a long discussion > before with Htoo about when objects are classified as being 'clear, > very clear, faint and very faint' according to whether javana and > tadarammana cittas arise and so on. If there are no javana cittas > arising, for example, the object is said to be very faint - it is not > experienced by lobha or dosa, for a start. > ----------------------------------------- > > Ah, so I was right; we have discussed this before! I can't say I > understand the above point, but leave it there for the moment. There > are probably other things I need to understand first. .... S: I can refer you back to Htoo's posts if you are interested. As it happens, I took this same matter up with K.Sujin and it happens to be on the discussions we're currently editing, so I have it in mind. It is one way that the objects are classified as 'clear', 'faint' and so on, but here just means according to the timing of visible object when it's seen. Detail can also be found in CMA. I can also summarise my notes from further discussion with KS sometime (I had meant to do it for Htoo). As you say, maybe not now. .... > --------------------------------------------------- > S: > So when we refer to bad eyesight, I think all these factors are > relevant. Conventionally, we say we can refer to the poor eyesight or > weakened eye-consciousness, but nothing is quite so simple from an > Abhidhamma perspective.:-) > ----------------------------------------------------- > > In my blissful, worldling ignorance I am in no hurry. And that might > be just as well - baby steps are about my limit. :-) .... S: Ah yes, I know those kinds of steps ;-). In the end, it's also a question of whether there is direct awareness and understanding of the seeing or visible object appearing now or not. If there is awareness, there's no thought of 'strong' or 'weak'. It appears just as it is. .... S: Meanwhile, take good care of your eyes -- we need them in good shape here for all the controversies!! Metta, Sarah ====== #66393 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience sarahprocter... Hi Joop, (Larry & all), --- Joop wrote: > L: Perhaps we could try to re-focus a little bit. The main question > is, is rupa an experience or not? > S: Rupa is never an experience, it is the dhamma which is only ever > experienced. > > J:I'm afraid, sarah, you base yourself on a western matter-mind > dichotomy when talking about nama and rupa. > The Buddha did not talk on matter as such, that had no soteriological > meaning, he talked about experienced material qualities. .... S: And I referred to rupa, the dhamma which is only ever experienced. Such rupa are 'experienced material qualities'. .... > To say is short: rupa (a dhamma) IS the experienced material quality. .... S: A small refinement - I wrote 'the dhamma which is only ever experienced' rather than 'experienced', because there are many, many, many rupas arising and falling away all the time which are not experienced. 'Only ever experienced' means that unlike nama, rupas can never experience an object. .... > L: If rupa is an experience, what do we need consciousness for? > S: If rupas were the whole experience, life would exist in rocks and > computers. But it doesn't! > > J: That is a good question, Larry; in my words: is there a difference > between an experienced material quality AND the consciousness of that > experience ? .... S: Without the understanding of this clear distinction and the development of awarness of namas and rupas with their different characteristics, the first stage of insight will never be attained. There will be no development of satipatthana at all. .... > To me the answer is in a kind of 'theory of theories': we (human > beings) don't know anything about the reality as such, all we can do > (and a baby starts with that process) is making a theory of some > aspects of the experienced reality, and we give that theory a name. .... S: This is the way to become experts at theorising, but not the way to develop direct awareness. ..... > There are conventional theories and an ultimate theory, and 'rupa' is > a part of the ultimate theory. > The answer of Srah is not correct, I think: a human being can > experience (the rupa of) a rock or computer, that's something > different as 'being' a rock or computer, in fact there is no being! .... S: Correct! There is no human being to experience anything. However, there are is tactile experiencing of an object and there are tactile objects experienced. Awareness can be aware of the experiencing or of the tactile object when it is experienced. This is the way satipatthana can develop, by knowing the paramattha dhammas as they appear. .... > We can have a theory of what a computer 'is'; but an ant walking on > and in my computer has a total different theory of it than I have. ... S: And in an ultimate sense, theories are just ideas, concepts, non-realities and don't lead out of samsara. I'm glad you joined in. Thx for taking my 'cutting-edge' comments in good spirit in another thread. So there was lobha for chocolate a moment ago. Let's say the reality was lobha (regardless of what it was attached to). How about THIS moment? You appreciate discussions on anicca. What is anicca at THIS very moment? Metta, Sarah ======= #66394 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:10 pm Subject: Re: permission from parents dhammanando_... Hi JC, > Come again? What you're saying is that one can ordain even without the > permission of the adoptive parents, is that it? Yes, one can, though one ought to ask them anyway if this is necessary to avert a quarrel. > Is there no text about cases of adopted people who ordained and if > they have to obtain permission from his real parents if these real > parents aren't deceased yet? No, such a case is not discussed and so we have to derive our ruling by analogy with the cases that are given. Which of the cases are the most closely analogous will of course depend upon the circumstances of the adoption, for the term "adoption" can cover quite a diversity of arrangements. If there aren't any clear analogies, then we derive it by considering the spirit of the rule: will the man's going forth result in parental disgruntlement (like that of King Suddhodana when Raahula went forth) and avoidable criticism of the bhikkhusangha? If we're talking about the most typical kind of adoption scenario in western countries (e.g., unwed teenage girl gets pregnant; boyfriend does a bunk; girl and her family lack the wherewithal to raise the baby and so entrust him to an adoption agency; child grows up without any contact with his biological parents, whose identity is concealed from him), then I think the closest analogies would be with the two clauses about parents who abandon their family. So in this case their permission need not be sought, for the father by absconding, and the mother by signing away her maternal rights, have effectively relinquished any claim to filial service by their son, and so are not entitled to forbid him to ordain. But to take another scenario: suppose there's a family in which the mother and father suffer a serious injury that leaves them permanently paralyzed and unable to bring up their son by themselves. They then pay a neighbour to adopt the son, who grows up living in the neighbour's home, but in daily contact with his biological parents. In this case there is no question of any abandonment of the child by his parents, and so the two parental abandonment clauses would not over-ride the first and basic clause: "Here, the phrase "from his mother and father" was said in regard to the man and woman who conceived him. If both are living, then leave must be obtained from both of them." So here permission from the biological parents must be obtained. Best wishes, Dhammanando #66395 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: some points on art sarahprocter... Hi Leo, (Your message #65157)didn't come to my in-box, but just came across it on the homepage): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Leo" wrote: > >S: Of course, all these preferences we have for parks, countryside > and quiet > > come down to attachment wouldn't you say? .... Leo:> I do not consider that as attachment. I see nothing to be attached > to really. .... s: There is nothing to be attached to, seeing as how all dhammas are anicca, dukkha and anatta, YET in our ignorance, we are attached to what appears through the senses most of the day, even when we think we're just sitting peacefully in the quiet park. Do we mind when we're disturbed or when it's suddenly noisy, hot or cold? Without attachment, we wouldn't mind, would we? .... >Your mind is more relaxed, then seeing nice subjects and > mind participation in discrimination of what is better. .... S: More relaxed or less disturbed.....in other words, more attachment....Where is the 'goodness' involved? ... >Or some high > extreme of night life and bars and all that "sexy go-go" and "I like > that music" or "that one is better". .... S: Different objects of attachment and aversion. Like you, I prefer the 'quiet', but I don't kid myself that it's dana, sila or bhavana when I follow this preference. .... >It says that forest is end of > perceptions. So I guess it is a good healthy ground that everybody > needs sooner or later. .... S: No, not everybody. Many or most would go mad if left alone for any length of time in the forest. The Buddha never told everyone to go to the forest. He did teach everyone to live alone, however, with what is appearing through the senses, whether in the forest or in a crowded bar. ....... >People come to parks in Hawaii to have talk > and food and relax from problems and work. > Like I said I see it as relaxation from common activities. .... S: Fine! But what we call relaxation usually refers to attachment wouldn't you agree? I hope you'll continue this thread, Leo. Metta, Sarah p.s Pls make it clear who you're addressing in your posts - that way they're more likely to get a response than if it's just 'hi!' ============ #66397 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:07 am Subject: Welcome Rick! (was:Uposatha 2007) sarahprocter... Hi Rick, A belated 'welcome' here! --- Rick Harrison wrote: > > > I always look at the moon and the newspaper, these are my sources. > > If your employer requires you to plan your days off far in advance, > you need a calendar or something along those lines. .... S: A good comment.....too late to look up at the moon and say 'By the way, I'm off - just seen there's a full moon!'. Anyway, Mike provided the calendar for next year for those that need it. Can I encourage you to introduce yourself - anything you wish to care about your background, interest in Buddhism and so on. Where do you live? I'll look forward to any further contributions you make. Do you usually take full-moon day off work? Metta, Sarah ======== #66398 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas' study corner 597- The Stages of Insight(s) and audio sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Han),& Sebastien in the p.s --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > Febr 4, 06. this was about the four kinds of upadana: > * sensuous clinging (kÄ?mupÄ?dÄ?na), > * clinging to views (ditthupÄ?dÄ?na), > * clinging to mere rules and ritual (sÄ«labbatupÄ?dÄ?na), > * clinging to the personality-belief (atta-vÄ?dupÄ?dÄ?na). > > We had a discussion before about no 4, and according to the > Nyanatiloka dict. it is the same as sakkayaditthi, but Kh Sujin > explained that 4 includes also the vipallaasas: taking dhammas for > permanent, sukkha, subha, atta. ..... S: Like Han's later comment indicated, I understood that the last upadana, attanupadana, refers sakkaya ditthi and all occasions of taking a 'thing' for being a reality, including all occaions of taking a 'thing' for lasting. With regard to the perversions of sukkha and subha, I take it that they are only included when accompanied by the wrong view of a 'thing' which is pleasurable or beautiful, such as a hand or candy! .... > The sotaapanna has no attasa~n~naa, but still clings , he has > subhasa~n~naa, he likes his hand, although he knows that rupas are > impermanent. This was the zest of the discussion. .... S: Yes, the sotapanna still clings, but without attasanna and also, I believe, without any attanupadana. He likes his hand, but doesn't take it for a 'thing' or a 'hand' (except in a conventional sense) and as you say, doesn't take any dhamma to last in anyway. This is my understanding to date anyway. .... > This is good for further discussion in Jan. And Sarah will give you a > CD, since you have no broadband. .... S: Yes, we'll be glad to do so. Metta, Sarah p.s In another old post I didn't get round to replying to, you asked me about Sebatien's French terms - pernicieuse for akusala and benefique for kusala. I'm flattered to be asked, but my French isn't up to knowing such fine nuances. They sound pretty good, though, I have to say. Also, where possible, I agree with Sebastien that it make sense to conform with other translations such as in the French Vism. I think Phil and Scott can help much better with this. How's it going, Sebastien? ========= #66399 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 12:43 am Subject: Re: permission from parents dhammanando_... Hi JC, > Also, what is the source of the texts below which you posted before? > Is it the Vinaya Atthakatha? Yes. Samantapaasaadikaa, Mahaavagga-va.n.nanaa, Raahulavatthukathaa. In the PTS edition: Vin.A. volume v. pp. 1011-12. > I'd also like to ask if one can eat salt or drink vegetable juice > without pulp after 12 during Uposathas? If you are asking about bhikkhus, the Vinaya rules about food and medicine apply on all days, not just Uposathas. Salt can be eaten after mid-day, provided that it has been determined by the bhikkhu as medicine and not previously used to flavour food. Vegetable juices allowable after mid-day are limited to those of lotus roots, sugar cane and those leaves that would not normally be cooked and eaten as vegetables. If you are asking about a layperson observing the Uposatha, the interpretation of the sixth precept varies a lot from place to place. In some places the laity will consume any kind of beverage after mid-day; in others they will observe the precept in the same way as bhikkhus. > And is it alright to play games like billiards, chess, checkers on > Uposatha days? For a bhikkhu it is never permitted to play these games. For a layperson observing the Uposatha, there isn't any mention of these games in the wording of the precepts themselves. However, the commentaries take the word visuukadassana (unseemly displays) in the seventh precept as a shorthand for all the various recreations and frivolities listed in the Majjhimasiila section of the Brahmajaala Sutta (DN. 1), and so it would seem that billiards etc. would also be included. Best wishes, Dhammanando