#66600 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:28 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Look at us discussing! James: Yeah. Is that something amazing?? ;-)) I discuss things with people all the time. > > This is the 'Piitisutta.m'. In the Paali, I think it is important to > note, the phrase 'a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of > seclusion' is (I think): > > "...sammaye ariyasaavako paviveha.m piiti.m upasampajja vihareyaamaati..." James: Hmmm...first you ask tons of basic questions about Buddhism, and then you turn into a Pali scholar. Just who are you Scott??? ;-)) > > The Buddha may have been approached by a lot of householders but I > think he was suggesting that they wonder about how they, householders, > could possibly enter and dwell in the rapture of seclusion *since* > they are *only* householders. James: I really don't know how you come to this interpretation. It is a real stretch from the text. The Buddha says plainly to the householders to not be satisfied with simply giving requisites to monks, that they 'could' also enter (from time to time) the pleasure of seculsion. As I see it, the Buddha must have felt that this was a group of serious householders since they were with Citta, the most devoted householder. So, the Buddha wanted to suggest something for them to practice which would be beneficial for them. Sariputta agreed with what the Buddha said and explained how such a jhana practice benefitted the holy monks of the sangha. This was not a common occurance as this was probably a unique gathering of householders- very faithful householders. > > The term 'ariyasaavako' means Noble 'Disciple'. 'Saavaka', according > to Nyanatiloka, is "'hearer', i.e. 'disciple', [and] refers in a > restricted sense [to the] mostly ariya-saavaka 'noble disciple', only > to the 8 kinds of Noble Disciples ariya-puggala...these have realised > on the 8 stages of nobility i.e. the 4 supra-mundane paths and the 4 > supra-mundane fruitions of these paths." James: Again, your sudden use of Pali interpretation is paradoxical to me. However, I can keep up with you... You are describing the noble discriples who Sariputta mentions. There is not a direct link between these noble disciples and the householders the Buddha is addressing, or at least there is no direct link apparent in the text. The Buddha is addressing one group and Sariputta mentions another group; they are two different groups. > > I would suggest that the Buddha is referring to sotaapannas, > sakadaagaamis, etc. when he discusses who does the entering into > jhaana. James: Wow, this is a HUGE leap in logic!! Nothing of the sort is referred to in the text and this idea doesn't match what the Buddha taught in regards to jhana. He never said anything about how jhana could only be achieved by ariyan disciples. Furthermore, the Vism., which discusses the path of jhana in exquisite detail, doesn't mention anything about this. Scott, you are really, really, really off-base with this idea. I would suggest he is teaching the householders to consider > the possibility of someday themselves experiencing the Path and its > Fruit. At such a point, I think, the conditions might be better for > the attainment of the first and second jhaana. James: What? Now you believe the Buddha is describing some future lifetimes to the householders? That would be really strange as the householders would have no idea of what the Buddha was talking about. Remember, this is the Buddha addressing a crowd, not KS. ;-)) (low blow I know...:-). > > I am unsure of this, but put it forward for the scrutiny of all. James: Well, I'm glad that you say you are unsure of your position. This demostrates that you are open-minded to the possibility that your interpration is mistaken. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James #66601 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Given the above, it seems to me that the Buddha is telling them to ask > themselves: 'How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the > rapture of seclusion?'. He didn't say, in this case: 'Enter and > dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion.' Of course the Buddha is not giving the householders an order to practice jhana; he is making a suggestion. What is your point? I thought that we were discussing if it is possible for householders to achieve jhana or not, so I provided this sutta. So, it is possible....suggestive or actual. Metta, James #66602 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:42 am Subject: Antw.: [dsg] re: Letters on Vipassana IV, 6 nilovg Hi Howard, When we pay attention to the shape and form of things we think of > concepts, but we could not think of shape and form if there were no > seeing. Seeing sees colour or visible object but there is usually > ignorance of these realities. ========================= Suppose we see a black disk on a red background, occupying the entire field of vision; i.e., that is exactly what is seen. The visual object is that entire, 2-colored "mosaic". It is the object content at that moment of visual consciousness. It is a reality in the sense that it is actually observed. ------- N: I do not think this is the seeing of just what appears through the eyesense. Your example is more involved with thinking about something, the entire, 2-colored "mosaic". It is still a 'something'. --------- H: Additional mental processing is presumably required to "see" that visual object as consisting of black and red, and even more processing, I would suppose, is required to see the disk shape of the black region. ---------- N: correct, but I have a hinge that this processing was already going on before that, given the fact that you give such an explanation about It is quite an explanation, is it not? --------- H: A question, though: Is not the red component "real", is not the black component "real", and is not the disk-shape also "real". Does the need for additional sa~n~nic and sankharic processing make these unreal? The name 'red', the name 'black', and the name 'disk' are, indeed, just names. But do these names not point to things quite real about the original visual object? -------- N: So, we have to ask ourselves: what impinges on the eyesense? Nobody else can point this out for you. There are many, many units of the four great elements and these have to be accompanied by four other rupas, so there are the eight inseparable rupas in a unit, and among those there is always visible object or colour. They arise and fall away very rapidly. Who can tell which one impinges in a flash upon the eyesense so that there can be seeing? Once Kh Sujin told me: can you tell how many colours there are in this room? No, we can't, but all that is visible appears through the eyesense. Nobody else can answer your question about what visible object is. There are some guidelines and that is all. Coming back to listening: explanation is important but then it has to be followed by verifying again and again and again. Can we not call that practice, application? Nina. #66603 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:48 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > I see this as an exhortation by the Buddha to householders to leave > the dusty household life and go forth into the homeless life as a > bhikkhu. > > He wasn't telling them to enter and dwell from time to time in the > rapture of seclusion in capacity as householders. I must disagree very strongly with what you say here! The Buddha never proselytized the bhikkhu life to householders!! That would go against everything the Buddha taught. It was up to householders to decide for themselves if they wanted to enter the sangha or not; the Buddha never tried to convince householders to enter the sangha. When the Buddha is suggesting to the householders that they could practice jhana, he most definitely means that they could practice jhana as householders. If he was implying that this jhana practice could only be possible if they became bhikkhus, that would be the worst type of subterfuge imaginable. Sorry, the Buddha didn't operate that way. Metta, James #66604 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 8:13 am Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] re: Letters on Vipassana IV, 6 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/29/06 2:49:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > When we pay attention to the shape and form of things we think of > >concepts, but we could not think of shape and form if there were no > >seeing. Seeing sees colour or visible object but there is usually > >ignorance of these realities. > ========================= > Suppose we see a black disk on a red background, occupying the entire > field of vision; i.e., that is exactly what is seen. The visual > object is that > entire, 2-colored "mosaic". It is the object content at that moment > of visual > consciousness. It is a reality in the sense that it is actually > observed. > ------- > N: I do not think this is the seeing of just what appears through the > eyesense. Your example is more involved with thinking about > something, the entire, 2-colored "mosaic". It is still a 'something'. --------------------------------------- Howard: I really don't know what you are saying, Nina. I'm trying to describe for you the visible object so that you will know what I am talking about. ---------------------------------------- > --------- > > H: Additional mental processing is presumably required to "see" that > visual object as consisting of black and red, and even more > processing, I would > suppose, is required to see the disk shape of the black region. > ---------- > N: correct, but I have a hinge that this processing was already > going on before that, given the fact that you give such an > explanation about entire > field of vision; i.e., that is exactly what is seen. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not begging the question, Nina. I'm indicating a visual object that, when further processed will come to be perceived and cognized in the fashion indicated. What I am alluding to is that the redness, and blackness, and the disk shape are not arbitary, but are determined not only by the sa~n~nic & sankharic processing, but by the eye-door object - it's nature - as well. It is observed as described, whereas other visual objects are observed differently, and ear-door objects with even greater difference. The visual object *does* have a nature, and that nature impacts how it comes to be observed by the mental operations of sa~n~na and various sankharic operations. ------------------------------------------------- The visual > > object is that > entire, 2-colored "mosaic".> It is quite an explanation, is it not? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Please see what I wrote above, so that you will know what I intended. ----------------------------------------------- > --------- > H: A question, > though: Is not the red component "real", is not the black component > "real", and is > not the disk-shape also "real". Does the need for additional sa~n~nic > and > sankharic processing make these unreal? The name 'red', the name > 'black', and the > name 'disk' are, indeed, just names. But do these names not point to > things > quite real about the original visual object? > -------- > N: So, we have to ask ourselves: what impinges on the eyesense? > Nobody else can point this out for you. There are many, many units of > the four great elements and these have to be accompanied by four > other rupas, so there are the eight inseparable rupas in a unit, and > among those there is always visible object or colour. They arise and > fall away very rapidly. Who can tell which one impinges in a flash > upon the eyesense so that there can be seeing? -------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry - I don't understand that as answering my question. My point is that the redness, blackness, and disk shape are not arbitrary. -------------------------------------- > Once Kh Sujin told me: can you tell how many colours there are in > this room? No, we can't, but all that is visible appears through the > eyesense. -------------------------------------- Howard: So? The number of colors is not given with the object. But is it not determined by the object? ---------------------------------------- > Nobody else can answer your question about what visible object is. > There are some guidelines and that is all. Coming back to listening: > explanation is important but then it has to be followed by verifying > again and again and again. Can we not call that practice, application? > Nina. > ==================== Nina, thank you for attempting an answer. With metta, Howard #66605 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:07 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi James, > I must disagree very strongly with what you say here! The Buddha > never proselytized the bhikkhu life to householders!! That would > go against everything the Buddha taught. It was up to householders > to decide for themselves if they wanted to enter the sangha or not; > the Buddha never tried to convince householders to enter the sangha. > > When the Buddha is suggesting to the householders that they could > practice jhana, he most definitely means that they could practice > jhana as householders. If he was implying that this jhana practice > could only be possible if they became bhikkhus, that would be the > worst type of subterfuge imaginable. > > Sorry, the Buddha didn't operate that way. Of course, householders can practice jhanas on their own, but the rate of successfully cultivating the jhanas is much higher if one is a bhikkhu rather than a householder. As a householder, you can attain the path of the anagami just like Citta the householder as I said. And it is up to the householder themselves to decide if they want to pursue the path of anagami as a householder (more difficult) or as a bhikkhu or if they even want to attain it in this very life. It all depends on the individual. Lots of factors are involved. Swee Boon #66606 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:23 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Scott, > I am under the impression that pa~n~na, in the end, performs the > penetrative function which conditions 'abandonment'. > Is not the fruit of jhaana attainment, given the right conditions, > rebirth in higher realms according to level of jhaana? > We all cling to pleasure, for sure. This is not persuasive, to me, > in recommending the cultivation jhaana as a pursuit. Pleasure is > pleasure. Being one of limited abilities and accumulations, I don't > wish to pursue pleasure, whether higher or not, when it seems to me > that it is not necessary or sufficient for the goal. Just my > opinion, mind you... > > What do you think? Yes, Right View is the sword that performs the cutting through. But Right Concentration is the stone that sharpens the sword! A blunt sword is a useless sword. There is no doubt that the pleasures of the jhanas is recommended by the Buddha. Decide for yourself on the necessity of jhanas for higher paths when you have attained stream-entry. Not much point in 'discussing' it right now. :-) Swee Boon #66607 From: "sarah abbott" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 10:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: earthquake starkidsclub Hi James, Nina & all, This is an experiment to see if I can reach DSG from this gmail account now. It seems that 6 of the 7 major cables between Hong Kong and Taiwan have been badly damaged in the earthquake and may take a couple of weeks to repair. These cables carry all internet traffic between here and Japan and North America. Some of it is being re-routed, but large corporations with clout have been given priority:-). Anyway, I can now read all DSG messages on my gmail account most of the time and Jon is slowly getting messages through to his netivigator account. Neither of us have had much luck sending messages anywhere, but I see my one to Nina did get through. It's all a bit experimental, just like when we were in Burma, remember Sukin? James, glad you didn't have any earthquake damage. Grab your passport as well as your computer next time, perhaps... Will try to catch up with the discussions this afternoon. Gmail is a great back-up account for natural disasters, for searching mail and seeing mail in threads for those who like this, but no good for printing messages and I'm having trouble editing James's last message here ---oops! It all went! Metta, Sarah (& Jon) ========== #66608 From: "sarah abbott" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind.. starkidsclub Hi Sanjay, I remember you are the Hindu with an interest in Abhidhamma, living in U.S. Glad to see you're still here, reading the messages. Thx for your appreciation of the list too. On 12/29/06, suryarao wrote: > > > <....> > I have very basic question about violence or killings done > for eating. I have read different views about this but still not > quite clear about it, so please bear with me and help me understand. > > Is there any difference between value of a life of animal and a life > a plant (vegetable) or a life of a human ? > ...... > S: Yes. A plant is not a living being of any kind. It doesn't have a 'life-force'. So there is no bad kamma involved in hurting a plant. With regard to animals and humans, according to the Buddhist texts, the (deliberate) killing of a human is considered to be more serious than the killing of an animal. With regard to animals (and insects), generally speaking, the larger the animal and the more effort required, the more serious is the kamma. The deliberate taking of any life is considered as being very 'wrong', however. ..... Buddhism prohibits killings of animals for eating them. > 1. Is the objection is because we are killing an animal ? What's > detailed reason behind it ? > ..... > S: When we deliberately take away the life of another being, the mental state is one of strong ill-will and ignorance. Ill-will is the opposite of loving-kindness of metta. ..... > 2. Several times being vegetarian, I (indirectly) kill several small > plants in one meal. If I were eating beef, may be we would need less > killing because of sheer size of animal. > ..... > S: In the first instance, whether you are vegetarian or whether you eat meat, you are not killing or harming living beings(directly or indirectly), if you don't intend to do so. As I said, plants are not living beings. We can speculate about all sorts of occurrences were we to change our lifestyles, but we don't know how others will act or what the kamma of other beings will be. In the Abhidhamma, it always comes back to our intentions at this moment, not to speculations about possible future scenarios. .... 3. Whats the difference between killings of animals for eating, or > those of ordinary humans or killings of much better humans (e.g. > Gandhi or Martin Luther King. ) > ..... > S: It is said in the texts that it involves a greater bad deed to kill (or harm) a person of greater virtue than one without virtue. As I said, generally speaking, killing a human involves greater unwholesome kamma than killing an animal. But of course, it depends on the circumstances. I've just lost the end of your message, too. I'm having a lot of trouble getting used to posting from this account. I feel just like a new member, trying to trim and do the right things. Let's see how it goes. Let me know how this sounds, Sanjay. Metta, Sarah ========= #66609 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Matt) - > > In a message dated 12/26/06 6:45:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > >> Hi Howard and Matt >> >> OK, you are taking a conventional cognitive/affective classification and >> relating it to this aspect of the teachings. >> >> I'm not sure the two mix very well, since the instances you give of the >> cognitive and the affective are mostly factors that, in Dhamma terms, >> arise together. >> > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nama and rupa arise together. Vin~n~nana and namarupa arise together. > Cetasikas and citta arise together. If there is a point you are making, Jon, > it evades me. > ------------------------------------- > Sorry if my meaning wasn't clear. I think I was trying to say that the Buddha did not classify dhammas by way of the cognitive and the affective (as defined by you), and that the cognitive as a condition for the affective, or vice versa, does not hold true as a general rule when taking the dhammas you identify as belonging to each group. Jon #66610 From: "sarah abbott" Date: Fri Dec 29, 2006 11:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Year (was: Re: earthquake starkidsclub Hi Joop (James & all), On 12/29/06, Joop wrote: > > I hope your life without internet will be ok, Sarah. > .... > S: Oh well, I've been surviving, lol. You know, no need to rush home from the surf, time to have a little rest, clean out some cupboards, update UP, edit audio......I even get to occasionally turn on the TV and catch up with some news and the rest of the world:-). Actually, it's quite funny -- first in October it was a major computer crash and literally, the day we got the computer back was the day I went down with shingles and found it really hard to be near the computer for several weeks. Just finding it easier when the earthquake struck and we got cut off. The latest predictions are that everything will be back to normal just as we go on our trip to Thailand:-) ;-). Sounds like an anarchistic anit-mods attack! from cyberspace! .... Perhaps you can write such long and beautifil messages as James did, > and post them later. > .... > S: Ooh, pushing your luck, Joop! I don't kid myself that you'll ever find my long messages beautiful anytime soon:-)) I'm glad to see James having good discussions, however and am glad he was in good humour when he read my joke about his initiation ceremonies here for newcomers. .... And have a good time in Bangkok > (perhaps you can sit quiet every day there in silence for half an hour > or an hour, doing vipassana meditation) > .... > S: Just because I can't answer back quickly, Joop....:-). If it's so useful, why only half an hour? Why not all day, all night? Wouldn't that be a faster way to become enlightened? (No chocolates, either...;-)) .... Gelukkig Nieuwjaar (Happy New Year) to all > .... > S: To you and your family too. I think we're beginning to understand each other as well, which is nice. Humour does help, I think. Look forward to reading all your messages when you need a break from all that silent sitting.... If I'm slow in responding, just save up all those numbers of posts for when I have easier access (which may not be til I get back from Thailand, before the next calamity strikes:-)). Anyway, slowly getting the hang here. Now we have to see if these messages that say 'sent' have actually gone anywhere. (Fortunately this account must be based somewhere other than in the States....) Metta, Sarah ========= #66611 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vedana jonoabb Hi Bill (and Howard) bjones6513 wrote: > ---Hi Howard and All, > I feel the basic problem, which you stated, is that those sensations are > rupa. This is where my confusion is. I constantly confuse the definitions > along with many others, including many commentators on the suttas. > It is quite common to experience confusion about this. Use of terminology varies. Let me try to explain. The objects experienced by body-consciousness through the body-sense are heat/cold, hardness/softness and motion/pressure. They are rupas. The feeling that accompanies the actual moment of experience through the body sense is the mental factor (cetasika) vedana, and is either pleasant or painful (depending on whether the moment of consciousness is kusala vipaka or is akusala vipaka), but never neutral. The feeling that accompanies the actual moment of experience through the other 4 sense-doors (i.e., eyes, ears nose and tongue) is invariably neutral. The objects of these experiences are also rupas. Then there is the feeling that accompanies the mind-door moments that think of an earlier 5 sense-door object. To summarise (somewhat simplistically): (a) the vedana that accompanies the moment of actual experience through the body sense is either pleasant or painful, (b) the vedana that accompanies the moment of actual experience through the other 4 sense-doors is always neutral, (c) the vedana that accompanies the mind-door moments that think of an earlier 5 sense-door object may be either pleasant, unpleasant or neutral When vedana is classified as 5-fold, it refers to the 2 kinds of feeling mentioned at (a) and the 3 kinds mentioned at (b) and (c). The 2 kinds of feeling mentioned at (a) are sometimes referred to in the texts as 'bodily feeling'. Now it is apparently common usage among some speakers of English to refer to experiences through the 5 sense-doors as 'sensations'. This may give rise to confusion in that (a) the objects of those experiences are in fact rupas, (b) the term 'vedana' is sometimes translated as 'sensation', thus giving 2 quite different meanings for the same term, and (c) in the context of the body door, 'body sensations' (referring to the experience of the rupas of heat, etc) may be mistaken for 'bodily feeling' (which as I explained above is used in the texts to refer to the vedana that accompanies experiences through the body-door), or vice versa. In the following passage by Howard, quoted in your post: >> There are certainly plenty of references to pleasant, unpleasant, or >> neutral bodily sensations. They are sensations which are experienced (by the >> operstion of vedana) as pleasant, unpleasant or neutral. But those sensations >> are rupa, not vedana. >> Howard is I think using the term 'bodily sensations' to refer to the rupas experienced through the body-sense. However, in the texts the terms pleasant, unpleasant or neutral are not generally applied to rupas, but to the feeling that accompanies consciousness. And as I mentioned above, the feeling that accompanies experiences through the body-door is either pleasant or painful/unpleasant, but never neutral (as I understand the texts). Hoping this helps clarify. Jon #66612 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] what can be the right balance jonoabb Hi Leo >> Here is a link to Google. In the searchbox type 'sri lanka >> map' and you'll get a choice of websites (the Lonely Planet >> link clearly shows Adam's Peak). >> http://www.google.com >> >> If you want to know where Sri Lanka is, type 'world map' in >> the searchbox, then search within one of the links. >> >> Jon >> > > > Hi > > That is Peak which is in south Western part. Originally I was > concern with the hill which is somewhere in eastern part of country. > Do you know anything about that footstep? > So you are not referring to Sri Pada/Adam's Peak, as in the website I referred you to? In that case, please give a little more information. Also, what is the source of the information you have mentioned to date (a footprint on a hill in the eastern part of Sri Lanka) -- for example, is this from a book? Jon #66613 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:53 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > Of course, householders can practice jhanas on their own, but the > rate of successfully cultivating the jhanas is much higher if one is > a bhikkhu rather than a householder. > > As a householder, you can attain the path of the anagami just like > Citta the householder as I said. > > And it is up to the householder themselves to decide if they want to > pursue the path of anagami as a householder (more difficult) or as a > bhikkhu or if they even want to attain it in this very life. It all > depends on the individual. Lots of factors are involved. James: Well, I agree with everything you write here. I guess I must have misunderstood what you were saying in your previous post. Sorry. I will call off the blood-thirsty mob now...;-)) > > Swee Boon > Metta, James #66614 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pali dictionary jonoabb Hi Bill bjones6513 wrote: > Hi Jon, > I realize it's a difficult task to find a teacher with the right balance of > meditative practice and study of the Tipitaka. I find that many teachers in > that tradition emphasize meditation more than study which at this point is > what I'm looking for. That will help balance my practice, which presently is > more study than meditation practice. My experience from past stays at > temples in Thailand is that one is mainly on their own with a brief period > each day for questions. > If you can recommend someone, please let me know. It doesn't necessarily > have to be in the Forest tradition. > Metta, > Bill > In case you haven't realised by now, I question the value of a period of stay somewhere devoted to advancing one's 'practice'. This as I understand it usually involves undertaking certain activities supposedly designed to arouse insight or to maximise the chances of this happening. I do not understand the Buddha to have taught this, it is not something found in the texts, and I see it as being not the development of the path. Not surprisingly, then, I don't know the names of any of the current 'meditation teachers' ;-)) However, if you have time while in Thailand I think you'd find discussion with Acharn Sujin to be of benefit, judging from what I've seen of your posts to date. There is a weekly discussion in English on Saturday afternoons. Please contact Sukin or me off-list for the address, etc (it used to be found on a website, but I don't know if that is still so). Jon #66615 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to control your anger! jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > ... > >> Thanks for coming in with these comments. I think the idea you are >> expressing here is that bare attention to akusala mind-states will >> result in their falling away. >> >> This idea is sometimes taken to form the basis of a kind of 'practice', >> as a way of having less aksuala. As I see it, however, that is just >> another attempt at control of dhammas, and is not the development of the >> path taught by the Buddha. > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Attending to exactly what arises, with calm and clarity and equanimity > is precisely what the Buddha taught, especially in such suttas as the > Satipatthana Sutta. > The difficulty with attending to exactly what arises is that it is something that can only be done with panna. That panna does not arise simply because we determine to attend to dhammas. It's arising is conditioned by (prior) hearing of and reflection on the teachings, and the application to the present moment of what has been thus understood at a conceptual level. So there cannot be attending to dhammas at will, even for those who have heard and studied the teachings a lot, let alone for those who rely on a form of practice. And unless panna is present, things cannot be seen as they truly are, and any assumed 'attending to dhammas' would not in fact be so. > And he taught it with an AIM, the cultivation of the mind. > ------------------------------------------- As regards cultivation of the mind, the mindfulness that experiences dhammas as they truly are is itself cultivation, because it is kusala of the highest level (the level of insight). There is not a form of 'practice' to be undertaken, such as attending to what arises, that somehow results in the arising of kusala of one kind or another. >> There is no general principle that more awareness means less akusala >> manifesting in one's life. Of course, the development of awareness will >> bring a better appreciation of all kinds of kusala, but the latent >> tendencies for akusala will see to it that akusala continues to arise in >> our life regardless (this is all part of starting from where we now are, >> I think). > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Abbottdhamma. > ------------------------------------------ I suppose that's a 'disagree' ;-)). Most people don't like having it suggested that their way of 'practice' is just another way of trying to control dhammas, so I understand the strength of your reaction. But I think it's important to see that progress in the development of insight into the true nature of a presently arising dhamma, on the one hand, and the nature and amount of aksuala that arises in our life, on the other, are separate things that are not directly (and inversely) related. Jon #66616 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:28 am Subject: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - Sorry you and Jon & all in your region are having this disruption. Of course, life & limb take precedence over convenience, and I'm happy to hear that you (and most folks) are fine. In a message dated 12/30/06 2:30:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarah.sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: Yes. A plant is not a living being of any kind. It doesn't have a > 'life-force'. ============================ Sarah, do you really *believe* that life-force stuff? And do you really think that such a thing is any less likely to be present in the plant kingdom than the animal kingdom? (Do not plants take sustenance (from water, sun, and trace minerals), depending on conditions to thrive or not, just as do animals and humans?) And, more importantly, *why* do you believe it? Far more obvious matters you (and the Buddha) say should be known directly for oneself and not be accepted merely on the basis of tradition or authority? Why do you accept such a life-force theory that is without any concrete evidence or detail? Do you believe in Mount Meru/Sumeru also? That had its origin in Hindu mythology, but it was carried forward in Buddhism. The Buddha spoke of it and never bothered rejecting it. In Kabbalah, the "soul" is said to be in the blood - hence the reason for koshering meat. Is that a tempting idea as well? ;-) Well, maybe not, because the word 'soul' is used, and this didn't occur in the Tipitaka. But if it said 'jivitindriya' instead of 'nefesh' (soul/lifeforce/biological mentality), and it was described in the Tipitaka instead of the Zohar, would it then become an article of faith? With metta (that's "metta", not "Meru" ;-), Howard #66617 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/30/06 2:40:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Sorry if my meaning wasn't clear. I think I was trying to say that the > Buddha did not classify dhammas by way of the cognitive and the > affective (as defined by you), and that the cognitive as a condition for > the affective, or vice versa, does not hold true as a general rule when > taking the dhammas you identify as belonging to each group. > ======================= I'm not making a general, carte blanche assertion, Jon. I simply say that what we react to emotionally and how we react is strongly affected by concepts, belief, thinking, and understanding/ignorance, and that cognitive papanca affects emotional papanca. And the Buddha also noted that what we perceive or recognize is conditioned by feeling. Thus, there are numerous instances of systematic relations between cognition and emotonal reaction. This is obvously so, and the Buddha pointed much of this out. I do *not* maintain, however, that "the affective" is only conditioned by "the cognitive" and vice versa, but only there are some critically important relations between the categories, that being part of the reason that right view is so important. Craving and aversion and emotional attachment are uprooted when ignorance is uprooted, that being the most important example of the influence of cognitive on affective. With metta, Howard #66618 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:53 am Subject: Re: If not pakatupanissaya lbidd2 Hi Nina and Rob, Nina: "U Narada explains in Guide to Conditional Relations (p. 181) under Natural Strong Dependence that strong asynchronous kamma is in the Natural Strong Dependence Group. Conditional Relations, p. 163: under Natural Strong Dependence " L: Is this correct: Kamma accumulates, becoming strong, and a result such as eye consciousness or rebirth consciousness arises at a later date. The accumulation is a case of kamma conditioning similar kamma and as it accumulates the accumulation process becomes stronger, conditioning the arising of similar kamma more often. Desire conditions desire, mindfulness conditions mindfulness. Kamma result does not accumulate. Also, I was wondering what "natural" means here and if it is different from the "natural" in "natural law" (niyama). I understand how "law" differs from "strong dependence". Larry #66619 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] How to control your anger! upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/30/06 9:56:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > >------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Abbottdhamma. > >------------------------------------------ > > I suppose that's a 'disagree' ;-)). =================== LOLOL! Uh, huh. :-) With metta, Howard #66620 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:11 am Subject: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) nidive Hi Howard, > > S: Yes. A plant is not a living being of any kind. It doesn't > > have a 'life-force'. > Sarah, do you really *believe* that life-force stuff? And do you > really think that such a thing is any less likely to be present in > the plant kingdom than the animal kingdom? (Do not plants take > sustenance (from water, sun, and trace minerals), depending on > conditions to thrive or not, just as do animals and humans?) And, > more importantly, *why* do you believe it? I understand life-force to be associated with kamma, particularly kamma related to whether one is short-lived, middle-lived or long- lived. Also, the Buddha speaks of aging as the decline of life-force in the Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html And in one who has died and passed away, it is said that his life- force is totally ended. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn41/sn41.006.than.html I understand that plants do not have 'life-force' because they do not engage in kamma formations. Also, I do not know of any sutta that speaks of the plant kingdom as a realm of samsaric existence by the Buddha. Swee Boon #66621 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:42 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear James, James: "...You are describing the noble discriples who Sariputta mentions. There is not a direct link between these noble disciples and the householders the Buddha is addressing, or at least there is no direct link apparent in the text. The Buddha is addressing one group and Sariputta mentions another group; they are two different groups." Actually, as I look further into this, the link does exist, but not as I originally surmised. One angle of this line of reasoning sort of evaporates in a way since Anaathapi.n.dika was a sotaapanna and, although I'm not sure of the timing of this, I think he may have been at the time of the Piitisutta.m. So this would mean, given that the wording is as you suggest, that the Buddha was exhorting these 'householders', at least Anaathapi.n.dika, to enter and dwell in the seclusion of jhaana. This would mean that my original surmise is off-base, i.e. that the householders the Buddha was addressing were as you and I. Saariputta was referring to the type of person doing the questioning - Anaathapi.n.dika was an ariya-puggala at the time. Does this detail matter? I don't know. It changes the tack I was taking. Those to whom the statement was addressed are not like you and I. S: "I would suggest that the Buddha is referring to sotaapannas, sakadaagaamis, etc. when he discusses who does the entering into jhaana." James: "Wow, this is a HUGE leap in logic!! Nothing of the sort is referred to in the text and this idea doesn't match what the Buddha taught in regards to jhana. He never said anything about how jhana could only be achieved by ariyan disciples. Furthermore, the Vism., which discusses the path of jhana in exquisite detail, doesn't mention anything about this. Scott, you are really, really, really off-base with this idea." Okay, so it seems that, in fact, at least insofar as Anaathapi.n.dika is concerned, the Buddha was speaking to a sotaapanna. Although I was missing this fact, the logic of my line of reasoning is intact, I think. That is, I'm not convinced that the Buddha, in the Piitisutta.m, was telling the ordinary person to slip off and get into jhaana and that it is still not clear to me that this is the best vehicle for the ordinary person of today. And this misses the more central point, for me, that is that the Buddha taught vipassanaa as a vehicle for the ordinary householder much more clearly than he did the pursuit of jhaana. There are a number of unexamined aspects of the Piitisutta.m left, I think. However, that being said, I think I'll step back from this thread. I think we see it differently and I don't want to get any further into the trading of suttas and the like. I'm open to the possibility that jhaana is attainable by certain people today but, as I go further into this with you, I realise that I stand much more firmly on the so-called 'DSG party-line' on this, having been convinced by the various points of Dhamma offered daily. I know you see it differently. Hopefully you won't mind my stepping back. Sincerely, Scott. #66622 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:05 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 165 nilovg Dear friends, We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Sixes, chapter VI, §6, Citta Hatthisåriputta) that even the monk who can attain jhåna may ``disavow the training'' and return to the layman's life. We read that when the Buddha was staying near Vårånasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, a number of ``elders'' were having a conversation on Abhidhamma. Citta Hatthisåriputta interrupted their talk from time to time. Mahå Koììhita said to him: ``Let not the venerable Citta Hatthisåriputta constantly interrupt the elders' Abhidhamma talk; the venerable Citta should wait until the talk is over!'' And when he had thus spoken, Citta's friends said: ``The venerable Mahå Koììhita should not censure the venerable Citta Hatthisåriputta. A wise man is the venerable Citta and able to talk to the elders on Abhidhamma.'' ``It is a hard thing, sirs, for those who know not another person's ways of thought. Consider, sirs, a person who, so long as he lives near the Master or a fellow-teacher in the holy life, is the most humble of the humble, the meekest of the meek, the quietest of the quiet; and who, when he leaves the Master or his fellow-teachers, keeps company with monks, nuns, lay-disciples, men and women, rajahs, their ministers, course-setters or their disciples. Living in company, untrammelled, rude, given over to gossip, passion corrupts his heart; and with his heart corrupted by passion, he disavows the training and returns to the lower life... Consider again a person who, aloof from sensuous appetites... enters and abides in the first jhåna. Thinking: `I have won to the first jhåna', he keeps company... Living in company, untrammelled, rude, given over to gossip, passion corrupts his heart; and with his heart corrupted by passion, he disavows the training and returns to the lower life...'' The same is said about the other stages of jhåna. We then read that Citta Hatthisåriputta disavowed the training and returned to the lower life. But not long after that he ``went forth'' (became a monk) again. We read: And the venerable Citta Hatthisåriputta, living alone, secluded, earnest, ardent, resolved, not long after, entered and abode in that aim above all of the holy life--realizing it here and now by his own knowledge--for the sake of which clansmen rightly go forth from home to the homeless life; and he knew: ``Birth is destroyed, the holy life is lived, done is what was to be done, there is no more of this.'' And the venerable Citta Hatthisåriputta was numbered among the arahats. Even if one can attain the highest stage of jhåna, one's heart can still become ``corrupted by passion'', as we read in the sutta. When Citta Hatthisåriputta had attained arahatship, he had realized the ``aim above all of the holy life''. The ``hindrances'' could not arise any more. Through vipassanå, hindrances are eradicated in the successive stages of enlightenment. The sotåpanna (who has attained the first stage of enlightenment) has eradicated the hindrance which is doubt (vicikicchå); the anågåmí (who has attained the third stage of enlightenment) has eradicated sensuous desire (kåmacchandha), ill- will (vyåpåda) and regret (kukkucca); the arahat has eradicated sloth and torpor (thína and middha) and restlessness (uddhacca), he has eradicated all defilements. ****** Nina. #66623 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:09 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana IV, 8. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin writes in her book "A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" (Citta, Ch 16) about this passage in the commentary: "... Someone may be unhappy and he may worry about it that he is growing older and that sati arises very seldom. When one worries the citta is akusala. We should not because of the Dhamma have akusala cittas, we should not be worried. The Buddha taught the Dhamma in order that people would be encouraged to apply it, develop it with perseverance and be inspired by it. Akusala arises when there are conditions , there is no self who can prevent its arising. When akusala citta has already arisen, we should not be downhearted, but we can take courage if there can be awareness of the characteristic of akusala which appears. We should not waste any opportunity to be aware. Then we shall know that also akusala dhamma which appears at such a moment is not a being, not a person or self. It can be clearly seen that at the moment of awareness there is no akusala, no downheartedness. One will not be troubled about akusala if one does not take it for self..." The monks were inspired and gladdened because of the benefit they acquired from the teachings. The Commentary adds: "We all can attain this benefit." We can really benefit from the teachings when satipatthåna is developed. The development of satipatthåna should not make us discouraged. The realities which appear can be penetrated and realized as they are. They arise and fall away, they are not self, not a being or person. When we consider the great value of the truth and know that we can realize it one day, although not today, we shall not be disheartened. One should not worry about it that one cannot know realities as they are today. Sati can arise and begin to be aware today, and then the characteristics of realities will surely one day be wholly penetrated and clearly known as they are. When we see that the truth of Dhamma is for our benefit and that it can be attained, we shall not become discouraged. We shall continue to listen and to study the realities the Buddha taught in detail, and then we shall not be forgetful of realities, there will be conditions for the arising of sati. ******************** #66624 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:04 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, What do you mean by: SB: "Decide for yourself on the necessity of jhanas for higher paths when you have attained stream-entry. Not much point in 'discussing' it right now. :-)" - ??? I'm sorry but this makes no sense. Stream-entry is a function of magga and phala cittas arising and falling away, eradicating hindrances. As far as I can tell, it has nothing whatsoever to do with jhaana, or rather the cetasikas which, in their mutual arising constitute jhaana (except as these arise all or some of the time with many cittas kusala and akusala when not combined as 'jhaana'). If pursuing jhaanas are not necessary when one has not entered the stream, why would the pursuit be suddenly so afterward? If the pursuit of jhaanas is beyond the worldlings of today for the most part, while still not necessary for stream entry, why would they suddenly become important after stream-entry. There is every point in discussing it. Misunderstanding is still strong. I just can't find the right way of discussing it. I like Nina's approach best. She has been quietly shadowing this discussion all along with apt suttas and other references, in case this has gone by without notice. I like her way. Sincerely, Scott. #66625 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:11 pm Subject: re: Letters on Vipassana IV, 6, colour. nilovg Hi Howard, ------- I did not manage to answer your questions. I try again, if I may, starting with the end: . N: Once Kh Sujin told me: can you tell how many colours there are in > this room? No, we can't, but all that is visible appears through the > eyesense. -------------------------------------- Howard: So? The number of colors is not given with the object. But is it not determined by the object? -------- N: I find it hard to convey the point to you. But it is not easy to explain. If we pay attention to each colour in the room, such as when counting, it is not seeing just what appears through the eyesense. That was the point of this remark. In other words, if we rationalize we shall not know what visible object is. You may find this approach too simplistic: close your eyes, and when you open them there is something there what was not there before: visible object or colour. No need to think at all. Too much thinking, and we are lost! ---------- H: I'm indicating a visual object that, when further processed will come to be perceived and cognized in the fashion indicated. What I am alluding to is that the redness, and blackness, and the disk shape are not arbitary, but are determined not only by the sa~n~nic & sankharic processing, but by the eye-door object - it's nature - as well. It is observed as described, whereas other visual objects are observed differently, and ear-door objects with even greater difference. The visual object *does* have a nature, and that nature impacts how it comes to be observed by the mental operations of sa~n~na and various sankharic operations. ------------------------------------------------- N: It is true that visible objects are not the same and sounds are not the same. There is a great variety. but seeing does not have to pay attention to the variety, it just sees. And it is also accompanied by sa~n~naa which marks the object. --------- > H: A question, > though: Is not the red component "real", is not the black component > "real", and is > not the disk-shape also "real". Does the need for additional sa~n~nic > and > sankharic processing make these unreal? The name 'red', the name > 'black', and the > name 'disk' are, indeed, just names. But do these names not point to > things > quite real about the original visual object? > -------- > N: There are many, many units of > the four great elements and these have to be accompanied by four > other rupas, so there are the eight inseparable rupas in a unit, and > among those there is always visible object or colour. They arise and > fall away very rapidly. Who can tell which one impinges in a flash > upon the eyesense so that there can be seeing? -------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry - I don't understand that as answering my question. My point is that the redness, blackness, and disk shape are not arbitrary. -------------------------------------- N: You are not satisfied with my answer. why do I speak of units of rupas? To point out that there are many, many units, all of them comprising colour as part of them. They are arising and falling away, so we never can catch this colour, or that colour. This brings home their ephemeral nature, and their having no core. When we hold on too much to the red component being "real", the black component being "real", and the disk-shape also being "real" we lose sight of their impermanence and anattaness. These names do not help me to understand that visible object is what appears through the eyesense, and to me there need not be any names. Nina. #66626 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:08 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Bill, Sorry for the delay in responding, and in welcoming you to the group. B: "In regard to change, I prefer to think instead of transforming the mind, I'm transforming my relation to my mind, but, actually, scientific research has found actual changes in the brain due to meditation. So there is change." If I may simply wade in with an opinion: Changes to a piece of electrified meat marinating in hormones and demonstrated by 'scientific research' are hardly persuasive in favour of pursuing jhaana. The argument isn't about whether there is such a thing as jhaana (and science is at least about what - 2600-2800 years too late in 'proving' that). But that's just me. I seem incapable of eclectisism and abhor mixing anything with Dhamma. It stands on its own. (Bloody luddites!) B: "...Clearly, samatha or calming of the mind, ridding of defilements is a necessary prerequisite before vipassana. This is from my experience from attending longer retreats. That's the main reason I have trouble practicing vipassana bhavana at home unless I attend a longer retreat." If, by 'samatha or calming of the mind' you refer to 'jhaana', can you say in what way it is a 'necessary prerequisite' for vipassanaa? Or rather, any more necessary a prerequisite than the very last moment of consciousness no matter what its constituents? 'Vipassanaa' or 'insight' or 'pa~n~na' is not something someone does, contrary to popular parlance or belief. It is, I think, something that arises according to conditions and in a flash, taking anything as object. No need for the idealisation of 'long' or 'longer retreats' nor for the devaluation of being at home. These locations are, I think, completely beside the point, or neither better nor worse. B: "...But for me true transcendence of worldly thoughts and ideas can only come from meditation, samatha to vipassana." No need to devalue 'worldly thoughts and ideas' either. These have their reality and, I think, can be known by pa~n~na as well, should conditions conduce. B: "Frankly, I equate Buddhism without meditation to walking into a restaurant , smelling, looking at the food, reading about it on the menu and then walking out without a taste." I like that. Here's one that keeps coming into my head as I follow this particular discussion: A field, seen from above, is full of very large, fleshy insects, some sitting with legs crossed, some walking very, very slowly and deliberately, some standing very, very still. All of them waiting for something to happen as a result. And then the light goes on and they all scatter like cockroaches on the kitchen floor. I guess that's how I equate 'meditation' without understanding. B: "I don't understand how there can be a debate over samatha versus vipassana. They are inextricably linked. Otherwise it is only an intellectual appreciation of the realities of life, not the transformative or transcendence qualities that one strives for through meditation." Just read this discussion. There it is. It is really going on right here. Again, I'd like to read how you see samatha and vipassanaa as 'inextricably linked'. We could discuss it and I'd learn something. Also, for what its worth, 'striving' is an impersonal dhamma which arises and falls away according to conditions. For what its worth... Sincerely, Scott. #66627 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Sorry for the delay. I blame the pagans who invented Christmas to line the pockets of their distant progeny. Howard: "I felt as if you were attempting to put me through an interrogation. That is not pleasant. To the extent that it seems that you are not looking to score points, I'll answer what I can..." Well, I was asking what I thought were a series of good questions worthy of consideration. I've noticed you have been quite 'dogged' in your approach to Nina lately and perhaps some of that spilled over into your perception of my post. I suppose, thinking about it now, I was being, needlessly and in part, a bit protective of her. My apologies. There has been a more abrasive tone in posts lately (including yours which is why I asked you quite awhile ago now if you were alright) which I don't particularily care for. Such as the 'looking to score points' comment above. I don't mind particularily - I mean I feel it and it bugs me temporarily - except that if one, in my opinion, tends to inject even a little hostility such as that into posts then one tends to experience it back even when there is none in a reply, if you know what I mean. Again, I don't mind but I do notice... I think James also misunderstood the thrust of my questions. I wasn't trying to get all your answers, I was wanting you to re-consider these things in light of those rhetorical questions. You just thought I was lazily trolling for easy information.;-) Howard: "The packet notion of cittas doesn't enchant me. At any point in time, there is awareness of some sense-door object, and that operation of consciousness is supported by various other mental operations and activities. That entire group of operations and activities in effect is what I mean by a mindstate. I think in terms of activities in effect, not things that are acting." "Activities in effect, not things that are acting" sounds right. The rest sounds like 'the packet notion of cittas' but said differently (and less inclusively). Howard: "When beginning to meditate, a degree of "external" stillness is needed - even in walking meditation. That external stillness helps foster an internal stilling. An initial concentrating of attention on a single category of sensory inputs, say the elements of the breath, further supports a growing calm, ease, and "letting go", as well as an increase in clarity. At a certain point, and this is determined by experience, the scope of what is "looked at" gradually and steadily expands, and eventually one is examining whatever arises, with energy expended only in "staying present", which amounts to not getting swept away in thought, in excitement, or in lethargic states." Here are you describing, in other words, a progression through jhaana levels? I thought that pa~n~na had to penetrate the various factors which define the various levels, realising and abandoning them in sequence or as they go or something. Is this correct? Howard: "Many 'sittings', most probably, fall short of jhana. In any case, even when jhana is entered, unless one is rather much of a jhana master, as I believe a few here are [not me], meditation is a process (my sittings are 45-minute sittings) that might be pictured as consisting of one or several waves, with the crests representing jhanic or near-jhanic periods, and the troughs periods of ordinary mentality. Also, it does seem to me that not all "jhanas" are the same. Some folks' jhanas are entirely absorptive, with no volition exercisable, but my meditative states have always permitted exercise of volition. Even when I was - once - apparently shuffling between 2nd & 5th jhana, an amazing though not especially fruitful event (except for showing that "there are more things in heaven and earth ..."), exercise of volition was possible. If some will say that this could not have been jhana, then I say, 'Ok, whatever!' ;-)" Cool. But, and here I want you to know I'm not meaning offense, this is why I question the pursuit of jhaana. These experiences are just experiences. How do they differ from any other. If they are not penetrated by pa~n~na why bother or so what or something like that? Are you suggesting that one 'jhanic wave' which occurred yesterday for forty-five minutes, will condition the next 'jhanic wave'? Even when you're not sure if the 'wave' is 'jhanic' or 'near-jhanic'? Are you also saying that jhaana is as different as the experiencer? A bit anarchical don't you think? Isn't there a consensus as to what jhaana is? Again, I don't doubt that jhaana exists as a function of concentration. As has been said, it was practised and taught at the time of the Buddha and used by him as well. I just wonder why it has to be idealised. And whether it is really understood today as it should be. And saying 'Ok, whatever' sounds all independent and all but what if it really matters? What if it isn't jhaana you've been experiencing, when you thought you were? Doesn't this concern you? It does me, hence my questioning it as I am. H: "I had no problem responding to this post, Scott. Your tone was quite different from before. Again, if meditataing is not your cup of tea, that's fine, though I do think it is best not to prejudge without testing the waters for oneself." I'm glad you liked the last post. Hopefully this one is alright. I don't want to discuss with you while wearing handcuffs, nor do I wish to be rude. I know you think a lot about things and tend to like what you think ;-)) Sincerely, Scott. #66628 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:06 am Subject: Fruitful Faith! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is Faith and Confidence Advantageous? Faith is the first of these 5 Elements of Effort: Faith, Health, Sincerity, Energy, and Understanding. http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/n_r/padhaaniyanga.htm Faith is main factor of these 4 Streams of Merit: 1: Unshakable faith in the Buddha, 2: Unshakable faith in the Dhamma, 3: Unshakable faith in the Sangha, 4: Quite Perfected Morality. AN IV 52 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/n_r/punna_dhaaraa.htm Faith is the first of these 7 Treasures: 1: Faith, 2: Morality, 3: Shame, 4: Fear of Wrongdoing, 5: Learning, 6: Generosity, 7: Understanding. A. VII, 5, 6. http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/b_f/dhana.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an07/an07.006.than.html http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_Seven_invisible_Diamonds.htm Faith is seed, the entrance, the initiator, the ticket, the beginning. Understanding is the highest, the goal, the diamond-cutter, the end. Both are Floods of Advantage, Fruits of the Best, Leading to Happiness! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * Freeing and Fruitful is Faith! #66629 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:59 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Scott, > If pursuing jhaanas are not necessary when one has not entered the > stream, why would the pursuit be suddenly so afterward? If the > pursuit of jhaanas is beyond the worldlings of today for the most > part, while still not necessary for stream entry, why would they > suddenly become important after stream-entry. Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a thesis on this and I agree with him. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm Swee Boon #66630 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: Letters on Vipassana IV, 6, colour. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/30/06 3:25:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > ------- > I did not manage to answer your questions. I try again, if I may, > starting with the end: . > N: Once Kh Sujin told me: can you tell how many colours there are in > >this room? No, we can't, but all that is visible appears through the > >eyesense. > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > So? The number of colors is not given with the object. But is it not > determined by the object? > -------- > N: I find it hard to convey the point to you. But it is not easy to > explain. If we pay attention to each colour in the room, such as when > counting, it is not seeing just what appears through the eyesense. > That was the point of this remark. In other words, if we rationalize > we shall not know what visible object is. ---------------------------------------- Howard: No, no - I understand the point you are making. But I am pointing to something else. --------------------------------------- > You may find this approach too simplistic: close your eyes, and when > you open them there is something there what was not there before: > visible object or colour. No need to think at all. Too much thinking, > and we are lost! ---------------------------------------- Howard: No, I understand the point, and it is an important one. It isn't what I am talking about, though. I'm pointing to the differences among visual objects - to the uniqueness of their natures. ----------------------------------------- > ---------- > H: I'm indicating a visual object > that, when further processed will come to be perceived and cognized > in the > fashion indicated. What I am alluding to is that the redness, and > blackness, and the > disk shape are not arbitary, but are determined not only by the > sa~n~nic & > sankharic processing, but by the eye-door object - it's nature - as > well. It is > observed as described, whereas other visual objects are observed > differently, > and ear-door objects with even greater difference. The visual object > *does* > have a nature, and that nature impacts how it comes to be observed by > the mental > operations of sa~n~na and various sankharic operations. > ------------------------------------------------- > N: It is true that visible objects are not the same and sounds are > not the same. There is a great variety. but seeing does not have to > pay attention to the variety, it just sees. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree entirely. But there is more to be known, and the mind door and mental processing allows for that. ------------------------------------------------- And it is also > > accompanied by sa~n~naa which marks the object. > --------- > > >H: A question, > >though: Is not the red component "real", is not the black component > >"real", and is > >not the disk-shape also "real". Does the need for additional sa~n~nic > >and > >sankharic processing make these unreal? The name 'red', the name > >'black', and the > >name 'disk' are, indeed, just names. But do these names not point to > >things > >quite real about the original visual object? > >-------- > >N: There are many, many units of > >the four great elements and these have to be accompanied by four > >other rupas, so there are the eight inseparable rupas in a unit, and > >among those there is always visible object or colour. They arise and > >fall away very rapidly. Who can tell which one impinges in a flash > >upon the eyesense so that there can be seeing? > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sorry - I don't understand that as answering my question. My point is > that the redness, blackness, and disk shape are not arbitrary. > -------------------------------------- > N: You are not satisfied with my answer. why do I speak of units of > rupas? To point out that there are many, many units, all of them > comprising colour as part of them. They are arising and falling away, > so we never can catch this colour, or that colour. This brings home > their ephemeral nature, and their having no core. When we hold on too > much to the red component being "real", the black component being > "real", and the disk-shape also being "real" we lose sight of > their impermanence and anattaness. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: By 'real' I mean nothing more than "not merely imagined". As far as I'm concerned, nothing but nibbana is truly "real". All conditioned dhammas are fleeting, unsatisfying, and without self, utterly dependent for their brief appearance on other equally empty conditions. ------------------------------------------- > These names do not help me to understand that visible object is what > appears through the eyesense, and to me there need not be any names. > Nina. > > ==================== With metta, Howard #66631 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/30/06 7:42:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Howard: "When beginning to meditate, a degree of "external" stillness > is needed - even in walking meditation. That external stillness helps > foster an internal stilling. An initial concentrating of attention on > a single category of sensory inputs, say the elements of the breath, > further supports a growing calm, ease, and "letting go", as well as an > increase in clarity. At a certain point, and this is determined by > experience, the scope of what is "looked at" gradually and steadily > expands, and eventually one is examining whatever arises, with energy > expended only in "staying present", which amounts to not getting swept > away in thought, in excitement, or in lethargic states." > > Here are you describing, in other words, a progression through jhaana > levels? ----------------------------------------- Howard: No, not necessarily. This is typically pre-jhanic. ---------------------------------------- I thought that pa~n~na had to penetrate the various factors> > which define the various levels, realising and abandoning them in > sequence or as they go or something. Is this correct? ---------------------------------------- Howard: I'm generally ignorant about pa~n~na. ;-) When aspects of a jhana are seen as inadequate, they are relinquished, leading to higher jhanas. I suppose that such "seeing" is pa~n~na to some degree. ----------------------------------------- > > Howard: "Many 'sittings', most probably, fall short of jhana. In any > case, even when jhana is entered, unless one is rather much of a jhana > master, as I believe a few here are [not me], meditation is a process > (my sittings are 45-minute sittings) that might be pictured as > consisting of one or several waves, with the crests representing > jhanic or near-jhanic periods, and the troughs periods of ordinary > mentality. Also, it does seem to me that not all "jhanas" are the > same. Some folks' jhanas are entirely absorptive, with no volition > exercisable, but my meditative states have always permitted exercise > of volition. Even when I was - once - apparently shuffling between 2nd > &5th jhana, an amazing though not especially fruitful event (except > for showing that "there are more things in heaven and earth ..."), > exercise of volition was possible. If some will say that this could > not have been jhana, then I say, 'Ok, whatever!' ;-)" > > Cool. But, and here I want you to know I'm not meaning offense, this > is why I question the pursuit of jhaana. These experiences are just > experiences. How do they differ from any other. If they are not > penetrated by pa~n~na why bother or so what or something like that? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Insights may arise during jhanas. To some extent some insight surely does arise. But the point of jhanas is neither unusual experiences nor insights neccesarily arising therein, but cultvating the mind, making it a suitable tool for investigation of dhammas. Jhana practice is a cultivational tool. When meditation falls short of jhana it still is cultivational. ---------------------------------------- > Are you suggesting that one 'jhanic wave' which occurred yesterday for > forty-five minutes, will condition the next 'jhanic wave'? > ----------------------------------------- Howard: No. Please stop theorizing. The waves were just my attempt at explaining what happens to me while meditating. You asked, so I answered. --------------------------------------- Even when> > you're not sure if the 'wave' is 'jhanic' or 'near-jhanic'? Are you > also saying that jhaana is as different as the experiencer? A bit > anarchical don't you think? Isn't there a consensus as to what jhaana is? ---------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not addressing any of this. These are your projections, I'm afraid. What I will say, and what I've been told by others far more adept at the jhanas than I, is that the textbook descriptions are just that. Reality is always different. ----------------------------------------- > > Again, I don't doubt that jhaana exists as a function of > concentration. As has been said, it was practised and taught at the > time of the Buddha and used by him as well. I just wonder why it has > to be idealised. And whether it is really understood today as it > should be. And saying 'Ok, whatever' sounds all independent and all > but what if it really matters? What if it isn't jhaana you've been > experiencing, when you thought you were? Doesn't this concern you? --------------------------------------------- Howard: Simply put, no. It is beneficial. It is kusala. And I won't put that up to a vote. --------------------------------------------- > It does me, hence my questioning it as I am. > > H: "I had no problem responding to this post, Scott. Your tone was > quite different from before. Again, if meditataing is not your cup of > tea, that's fine, though I do think it is best not to prejudge without > testing the waters for oneself." > > I'm glad you liked the last post. Hopefully this one is alright. I > don't want to discuss with you while wearing handcuffs, nor do I wish > to be rude. I know you think a lot about things and tend to like what > you think ;-)) ------------------------------------------- Howard: Despite the smiley, Scott, I believe that last sentence is insulting. I suggest you discuss meditation further with folks other than me. ------------------------------------------- > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > ====================== With metta, Howard #66632 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:01 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,124 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 124. There are seven kinds of consciousness with the formation of demerit as condition: the five unprofitable resultants beginning with eye-consciousness ((50)-(54)), one mind element (55), and one mind-consciousness element (56), according as it is said: 'Because of unprofitable kamma having been performed and stored up, resultant eye-consciousness has arisen ... ear- ... nose- ... tongue- ... body-consciousness has arisen' (Dhs.556), 'resultant mind element' (Dhs.562), 'resultant mind-consciousness element has arisen' (Dhs.564). ************************* 124. apu~n~naabhisa"nkhaarapaccayaa pana akusalavipaakaani pa~nca cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadiini, ekaa manodhaatu, ekaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatuuti eva.m sattavidha.m vi~n~naa.na.m hoti. yathaaha --``akusalassa kammassa ka.tattaa upacitattaa vipaaka.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.na.m uppanna.m hoti... sota... ghaana... jivhaa... kaayavi~n~naa.na.m... vipaakaa manodhaatu vipaakaa manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu uppannaa hotii´´ti (dha0 sa0 556). #66633 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,124 lbidd2 Hi all, Nina informs me that there is no commentary for the next few paragraphs, so I will just post them, and maybe add a few noncontroversial clarifications: "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 124. There are seven kinds of consciousness with the formation of demerit as condition: the five unprofitable resultants beginning with eye-consciousness ((50)-(54)), one mind element (55), and one mind-consciousness element (56), according as it is said: 'Because of unprofitable kamma having been performed and stored up, resultant eye-consciousness has arisen ... ear- ... nose- ... tongue- ... body-consciousness has arisen' (Dhs.556), 'resultant mind element' (Dhs.562), 'resultant mind-consciousness element has arisen' (Dhs.564). L: 50-54 is unprofitable (akusala) eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body consciousness. 55 is unprofitable receiving consciousness. 56 is unprofitable investigation, registration, rebirth, life continuity (bhavanga), and death consciousness. Unprofitable resultant consciousness is the result of unprofitable kamma ("formations of demerit"). It is said that their object is inherently undesirable. Larry #66634 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Stressing sila & Cutting off at feeling jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 12/30/06 2:40:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > >> Sorry if my meaning wasn't clear. I think I was trying to say that the >> Buddha did not classify dhammas by way of the cognitive and the >> affective (as defined by you), and that the cognitive as a condition for >> the affective, or vice versa, does not hold true as a general rule when >> taking the dhammas you identify as belonging to each group. > ======================= > I'm not making a general, carte blanche assertion, Jon. I simply say > that what we react to emotionally and how we react is strongly affected by > concepts, belief, thinking, and understanding/ignorance, and that cognitive > papanca affects emotional papanca. > It's a question of relevance and significance (usefulness). You see, we have come now to the proposition that some (but not all) dhammas that you and others (but not the Buddha) classify as 'cognitive' sometimes condition, in a manner not specified, other dhammas that are similarly classified as 'affective'. It seems to me that if it's not a relationship that holds generally, but only selectively in a way that cannot be formulated, and if the exact mode of conditioning is not known, then it falls into the category of a conventional piece of information. > And the Buddha also noted that what we perceive > or recognize is conditioned by feeling. Thus, there are numerous instances of > systematic relations between cognition and emotonal reaction. This is obvously > so, and the Buddha pointed much of this out. Well, given the numerous instances in the texts of one nama-dhamma conditioning another nama-dhamma in some manner or other, they are bound to include some 'cognitive' and some 'affective' (as defined). However, I don't think this entitles you to claim support for the relationship from the texts. I guess I just don't see the point in introducing a classification that is not already found in the texts. > I do *not* maintain, however, that "the affective" is only conditioned > by "the cognitive" and vice versa, but only there are some critically > important relations between the categories, that being part of the reason that right > view is so important. Craving and aversion and emotional attachment are > uprooted when ignorance is uprooted, that being the most important example of the > influence of cognitive on affective. > But 'emotional attachment' is, as I understand the texts, a variety of craving, aversion or ignorance, all of which are already included in the same statement. So again, what is the usefulness of this? As you know, what we call 'emotional attachment' is nothing more than the same unwholesome mental factors that appear in various combinations throughout the day, and that have been accumulated for aeons. They arise at any appropriate opportunity, and when they do arise they may be the object of awareness. Jon #66635 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:35 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > However, that being said, I think I'll step back from this thread. I > think we see it differently and I don't want to get any further into > the trading of suttas and the like. James: Okay, that's fine. I could respond to some of the things you write in this post, but I would be asking for clarifications about certain statements. Since you want to drop this thread, no reason to ask for those clarifications now. I realise that I stand much more firmly on the > so-called 'DSG party-line' on this, having been convinced by the > various points of Dhamma offered daily. James: Okay, but I hope you aren't basing your opinion just on the things presented in this group. You need to study the suttas for yourself to make your decisions (I can't emphasize this enough). Metta, James #66636 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > There has been a more abrasive tone in posts lately... > which I don't particularily care for. James: What one person considers abrasive, someone else might not consider it such a big deal. But I can understand your feeling of protectiveness for Nina (I think many people in this group feel that way). But, I think that Nina is a lot tougher than people give her credit for. I know you think a lot about things and tend to like what > you think ;-)) James: You write that you don't like abrasive tones and then you write something this nasty to Howard?? This statement suggests that Howard is egotistical and pompous- which he is neither. I also feel protective of Howard, as you do of Nina, because he is my friend and doesn't deserve such personal attacks. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James #66637 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi again, Scott - In a message dated 12/30/06 11:55:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > I > >don't want to discuss with you while wearing handcuffs, nor do I wish > >to be rude. I know you think a lot about things and tend to like what > >you think ;-)) > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Despite the smiley, Scott, I believe that last sentence is insulting. > I suggest you discuss meditation further with folks other than me. > ------------------------------------------- > ======================= Perhaps I read you incorrectly, in which case I apologize. It just seemed to me that you have been and are being confrontational, and in your eagerness to find a justification for not meditating you are grilling me as if I were someone who claims to be a meditation expert and requires some sort of challenging.Whatever your intention, I'm not finding our current conversation a friendly one. I'm no expert, far from it. Meditating is a central part of the Dhamma as far as I'm concerned, and without it, the heart of Dhamma practice is excised. My meditating is as good as it is, no better and no worse. Being reasonably adept at introspection, I can tell you that it is a wholesome and useful practice for me. I follow the Buddha's meditation instructions, with the aid of some others who, I believe, understand them well, as best I can, but I am anything but an authority. I've told you pretty much of what I can about my own meditating. For "official" and technical descriptions you will need to turn elsewhere. If your aim is to learn about meditating and the jhanas, I think you should read the reports of experts and you should find a good meditation teacher and do some hands-on (actually minds-on) meditation of your own. If your aim is to debunk it or the practicing of it, I'd suggest dropping that and getting on to more useful pursuits. With metta, Howard #66638 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 jonoabb Hi Scott (and James) (and All in a PS) I've been following this (and other) threads of yours with interest. Just like to add a couple of observations on the 2 suttas being discussed here. As I read it, what is said in the 'Laypersons' Welfare' Sutta (AN VIII,54) is of general application, in fact applicable to all lay followers, while what is said in the 'Rapture of Seclusion' Sutta (AN V,176) is pretty much specific to those 500 householders. I think the reference by Ven Sariputta to 'noble disciple' could be read as implying that these householders were enlightened, but the other interpretation as mentioned by James (i.e., that these comments relate to a different set of persons) is also possible. As you point out, the 'Rapture' sutta does not directly exhort the 500 householders to develop jhana, but rather uses a less direct way of addressing the subject. I'm sure this is significant (in some way not immediately apparent to me!). As to why the Buddha spoke to the householders on this particular subject, one can only say that he knew beings' accumulations intricately, so this was what they needed to hear at that time. Perhaps there were reasons from the past (past lives) that made consideration of the attainment of jhana pertinent for them. It would be good to have access the commentary to this sutta. Perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi's forthcoming (and eagerly awaited) translation will throw some light on this point ;-)). This sutta came up during the discussions in India in 2005 (in the hotel in Bodh-Gaya, as I remember), and links to these are on dsg.org. Jon PS Internet connections are down again in Hong Kong, after a brief period of connectivity, so Sarah is again 'grounded' as far as posting goes. Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear James, > > ... > J: "AN 109 "The Rapture of Seclusion":..." > > This is the 'Piitisutta.m'. In the Paali, I think it is important to > note, the phrase 'a noble disciple enters and dwells in the rapture of > seclusion' is (I think): > > "...sammaye ariyasaavako paviveha.m piiti.m upasampajja vihareyaamaati..." > > The Buddha may have been approached by a lot of householders but I > think he was suggesting that they wonder about how they, householders, > could possibly enter and dwell in the rapture of seclusion *since* > they are *only* householders. > ... > #66639 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Howard, Howard: "Despite the smiley, Scott, I believe that last sentence is insulting..." I think this is fair, upon reflection. Written quickly, meant as a joke, accompanied by a smiley face yet, as you say, 'insulting'. Consider the comment retracted on open-forum. My apologies to you (and to the group in general including moderators). I'll do better in future posts. Sincerely, Scott. #66640 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear James, James: "What one person considers abrasive, someone else might not consider it such a big deal. But I can understand your feeling of protectiveness for Nina (I think many people in this group feel that way). But, I think that Nina is a lot tougher than people give her credit for." Agreed. She needs no help from me. Second apology for this. Nina takes care of herself. James: "You write that you don't like abrasive tones and then you write something this nasty to Howard..." Also agreed, as I wrote to Howard. Again, I'll be taking much more care in the future. My apologies to you as well. Sincerely, Scott. #66641 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Hi again Howard, Howard: "Perhaps I read you incorrectly, in which case I apologize." No need, Howard. See my other post. A fair cop I'd say. Now it's gone. I hope for you too. H: "It just seemed to me that you have been and are being confrontational, and in your eagerness to find a justification for not meditating you are grilling me as if I were someone who claims to be a meditation expert and requires some sort of challenging.Whatever your intention, I'm not finding our current conversation a friendly one." I'd noticed this as well. I'd just chalked it up to this being a rather important subject with some polarisation of views. I'd just figured that sometimes the heat flares up. It's still worth discussing I think. H: "I'm no expert, far from it. Meditating is a central part of the Dhamma as far as I'm concerned, and without it, the heart of Dhamma practice is excised." Here I'd say again, hopefully in the right tone, that one of the very central concerns I have is in attempting to determine what people mean when they use the term 'meditation'. For example, when I was involved in a more general Buddhist forum, one often reads others to talk about needing to 'get back to the meditation cushion', and often as a comment balancing some attempt at understanding a point of Dhamma. This was repeated often enough by enough people that I began to see it more as a rather rote phrase and personally found it rather thoughtless. I also felt the group contagion effect setting in. Further, it was something I was told as well, that is, get on to the 'meditation cushion' and it usually seemed to imply that a thoughtful consideration of the Dhamma was to be jettisoned in favour of 'sitting'. It seemed as if the solution to everything was to 'get back on the meditation cushion' yet I failed to see what it was that was supposed to happen there. And, although study began to show me what jhaana was, the nature of its transformation and so on, sitting did not. I am aware of the importance of a non-intellectualised approach, by the way - this isn't what I'm trying to talk about. When I encountered the possibility that what others think is jhaana might not acutally be jhaana, this was interesting to me. This was helpful because I could see that my faith in the Buddha's teachings was condition for some mindlessness and a naive tendency to want to 'follow the crowd'. If jhaana is a rare and rarified 'state' the pursuit of which being possibly beyond one's capacities, and if vipassanaa is within one's reach, as it were, and essentially of the same process that makes the use of jhaana transformative (as I understand it - I've yet to finish reading the Bh. Bodhi article recommended by Swee Boon - interesting so far) I'm convinced that this 'practise' makes more sense. This is no indictment of 'meditation' per se. Maybe growing up in a fundamentalist religion where the naive solution to everything was to 'pray' conditions this response of mine - no doubt it does. And I suppose one could accuse me of simply following another crowd when I state that I've been convinced by Dhamma I've been given to learn about here on DSG that 'meditation' has a broader meaning and 'application' than 'sitting on a cushion'. H: "My meditating is as good as it is, no better and no worse. Being reasonably adept at introspection, I can tell you that it is a wholesome and useful practice for me. I follow the Buddha's meditation instructions, with the aid of some others who, I believe, understand them well, as best I can, but I am anything but an authority. I've told you pretty much of what I can about my own meditating." Yes and this is clear. I failed to thank you for the personal aspect in your response, for the explication of your own experience. This is always appreciated. I am familiar with the way in which some of the constituents of jhaana 'feel' by experience. This experience has given me to notice their fleeting nature. I've not pursued it enough to see if these dhammas would cohere over time into what is described as jhaana. I'd even imagined recently that perhaps it might be worth the experiment, just to see if there is jhaana or not, to sit with that goal in mind. I realised the folly of such a pursuit. H: "For 'official' and technical descriptions you will need to turn elsewhere. If your aim is to learn about meditating and the jhanas, I think you should read the reports of experts and you should find a good meditation teacher and do some hands-on (actually minds-on) meditation of your own. If your aim is to debunk it or the practicing of it, I'd suggest dropping that and getting on to more useful pursuits." You may recall my struggles with the 'find a teacher' dilemna a few months back. My aim is to learn what is possible for me and how best to 'proceed'. If I can 'meditate' from the moment of waking to the moment of falling asleep and if every element of experience is potentially object of wisdom; if there is no control because of the impermanence of dhammas which are anatta, and if I am of limited time, then I find vipassanaa to fit the bill. I don't think I want to 'debunk' the pursuit of jhaana. I know the reality of it. I appreciate that you don't see yourself as an 'expert' in 'meditation'. I was hoping the 'meditators' (as I call you - sorry) could provide some material for me to consider and confront. There is freedom to confront DSG 'party-line' and so there is freedom to confront Counter-DSG 'party-line' I figure. (This latter comment conditioned the impulse to put down one of those smiley-winky guys and so I figured it was a potentially dangerous comment as a result and, giving it a second look, I decide it is an innocuous and a fair statement and so...) ;-) Sincerely, Scott. #66642 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks for the reply. J: "As I read it, what is said in the 'Laypersons' Welfare' Sutta (AN VIII,54) is of general application, in fact applicable to all lay followers, while what is said in the 'Rapture of Seclusion' Sutta (AN V,176) is pretty much specific to those 500 householders." That is how I see it as well. J: "As you point out, the 'Rapture' sutta does not directly exhort the 500 householders to develop jhana, but rather uses a less direct way of addressing the subject. I'm sure this is significant (in some way not immediately apparent to me!)." Too bad, I thought you'd have known! It will be interesting to learn more of this seemingly odd wording. J: "As to why the Buddha spoke to the householders on this particular subject, one can only say that he knew beings' accumulations intricately, so this was what they needed to hear at that time. Perhaps there were reasons from the past (past lives) that made consideration of the attainment of jhana pertinent for them." This would be the sort of 'standard' way of making sense of this. I was thinking in this way as well, and I guess this is why the sutta doesn't, as I've mentioned, seem to stand out as a clear directive. If you haven't read it already, check out the Bh. Bodhi reference given earlier by Swee Boon. It seems to have some interesting things to say on this general topic. J: "It would be good to have access the commentary to this sutta. Perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi's forthcoming (and eagerly awaited) translation will throw some light on this point ;-))." Yeah, for sure. Any idea when this is likely? J: "This sutta came up during the discussions in India in 2005 (in the hotel in Bodh-Gaya, as I remember), and links to these are on dsg.org." Thanks Jon, I'll look that one up. Sincerely, Scott. #66643 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" For example, when I was involved > in a more general Buddhist forum, one often reads others to talk about > needing to 'get back to the meditation cushion', and often as a > comment balancing some attempt at understanding a point of Dhamma. > This was repeated often enough by enough people that I began to see it > more as a rather rote phrase and personally found it rather > thoughtless. I also felt the group contagion effect setting in. > > Further, it was something I was told as well, that is, get on to the > 'meditation cushion' and it usually seemed to imply that a thoughtful > consideration of the Dhamma was to be jettisoned in favour of > 'sitting'. _______ Hi Scott I was browsing that forum tonight. Here is a quote from the thread, "Pali Canon in Zen Buddhism, Is it recognized?" written today or yesterday: '..in the Zen School direct insight is first and the teachings only after. So one should not worry about complicated teachings before enlightenment.' So we see everyone, whether Buddhist or not, has different ideas about Dhamma, the theory and pratice. It is all very interesting and natural. Robert #66644 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:37 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for the reference: SB: "Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a thesis on this and I agree with him." I've read it once and will again, time permitting. What do you agree with in particular? It will be interesting to discuss this. I find that I wish Bh. Bodhi had written the unwritten essay on the possibility of 'dry-insight' and the nature of the Commentaries he mentions at the end of the paper. Sincerely, Scott. #66645 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Hi Robert, R: "'..in the Zen School direct insight is first and the teachings only after. So one should not worry about complicated teachings before enlightenment.' So we see everyone, whether Buddhist or not, has different ideas about Dhamma, the theory and pratice. It is all very interesting and natural." Thank you. A good way of seeing it, as opposed to my way which, apparently, involves the 'theory and practise' of getting all wrought-up. Sincerely, Scott. #66646 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 rjkjp1 --- Dear Scott In case you got the wrong idea, it is certainly appropriate to correct wrong views - if we can. When I say it is natural I don't mean it is good that there is so much adhamma about these days. Robert #66647 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - Thank you, Scott. I appreciate your fast response, and I certainly fully accept your apology. Clearly you evaluate me however you evaluate me, and I think that what you said about me is, indeed, what you believe about me. That's fine. You have every right to that, and there isn't much you could do about that even if you wished to. But what we think and feel is one thing, and what we express in words is another. The speech we can control, and I thank you for your retraction. With metta, Howard #66648 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:10 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 166 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 22 Jhånacittas There are many different cittas arising in our daily life which experience objects through the five sense-doors and through the mind- door. Both in the sense-door process and in the mind-door process of cittas there are javana-cittas which are, in the case of the non- arahat, either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. The javana-cittas are most of the time akusala cittas because we cling to all objects which are experienced through the sense-doors and through the mind-door. We cling to visible object and seeing, to sound and hearing, to all the objects we experience. We cling to life, we want to go on living and receiving sense-impressions. We may not notice when there is clinging after seeing or hearing, especially when we do not feel particularly glad about what was seen or heard. But there may be lobha-múla-cittas with indifferent feeling. There are likely to be many moments of clinging which pass unnoticed, both in the sense-door processes and in the mind-door processes. Time and again an object is experienced through one of the sense-doors and then through the mind-door and there are also mind-door processes of cittas which think of concepts such as people, animals or things. Clinging to concepts is likely to arise very often and thus we think most of the time with akusala citta. When we do not apply ourselves to dåna, síla or bhåvanå, thinking is done with akusala citta. Even when we perform good deeds there are bound to be akusala cittas shortly after the kusala cittas since there is seeing and hearing time and again, and after seeing or hearing attachment or aversion on account of what we experience may arise. The cittas which experience sense-objects, the kusala cittas and akusala cittas, all the cittas which arise in our daily life are of the ``sensuous plane of consciousness'', or kåmåvacara cittas. On account of the experience of sense-objects defilements tend to arise. Therefore wise people, even those who lived before the Buddha's time, who saw the disadvantages of sense-impressions, developed jhåna in order to be temporarily freed from sense- impressions. Jhåna-cittas are not kåmåvacara cittas, they are of another plane of consciousness; these cittas experience with absorption a meditation subject through the mind-door. ****** Nina. #66649 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 12/31/06 10:58:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Hi again Howard, > > Howard: "Perhaps I read you incorrectly, in which case I apologize." > > No need, Howard. See my other post. A fair cop I'd say. Now it's > gone. I hope for you too. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, we're talking! ;-)) ----------------------------------------- > > H: "It just seemed to me that you have been and are being > confrontational, and in your eagerness to find a justification for not > meditating you are grilling me as if I were someone who claims to be a > meditation expert and requires some sort of challenging.Whatever your > intention, I'm not finding our current conversation a friendly one." > > I'd noticed this as well. I'd just chalked it up to this being a > rather important subject with some polarisation of views. I'd just > figured that sometimes the heat flares up. It's still worth > discussing I think. > > H: "I'm no expert, far from it. Meditating is a central part of the > Dhamma as far as I'm concerned, and without it, the heart of Dhamma > practice is excised." > > Here I'd say again, hopefully in the right tone, that one of the very > central concerns I have is in attempting to determine what people mean > when they use the term 'meditation'. For example, when I was involved > in a more general Buddhist forum, one often reads others to talk about > needing to 'get back to the meditation cushion', and often as a > comment balancing some attempt at understanding a point of Dhamma. > This was repeated often enough by enough people that I began to see it > more as a rather rote phrase and personally found it rather > thoughtless. I also felt the group contagion effect setting in. ------------------------------------------ Howard: There are aberations of all sorts to be found all over the place! ;-) ----------------------------------------- > > Further, it was something I was told as well, that is, get on to the > 'meditation cushion' and it usually seemed to imply that a thoughtful > consideration of the Dhamma was to be jettisoned in favour of > 'sitting'. It seemed as if the solution to everything was to 'get > back on the meditation cushion' yet I failed to see what it was that > was supposed to happen there. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly not my point of view. As I repeat (probably ad nauseum), Dhamma practice isn't a one-trick pony. ---------------------------------------- > And, although study began to show me > what jhaana was, the nature of its transformation and so on, sitting > did not. I am aware of the importance of a non-intellectualised > approach, by the way - this isn't what I'm trying to talk about. --------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what sort of "meditation training" you received. Perhaps it was unsuitable for you, or perhaps it was just plain wrong. But finding out what jhana actually is will never come from studying. Studying the jhana descriptions can be useful. At best it will help guide the process once one gets to a jhanic level, though at worst it will tend to make one stop meditating and begin evaluating "Hey, is this the 1st jhana? The 2nd? Is it access concentration?". Studying meditation *instructions* from proper teachers who properly base their teaching on tipitaka material is essential. Without the proper approach, there is no reasonable expectation of progress except for those few who are "natural meditators" based on previous-lifetime practice. ------------------------------------------------ > > When I encountered the possibility that what others think is jhaana > might not acutally be jhaana, this was interesting to me. This was > helpful because I could see that my faith in the Buddha's teachings > was condition for some mindlessness and a naive tendency to want to > 'follow the crowd'. > > If jhaana is a rare and rarified 'state' the pursuit of which being > possibly beyond one's capacities, and if vipassanaa is within one's > reach, as it were, and essentially of the same process that makes the > use of jhaana transformative (as I understand it - I've yet to finish > reading the Bh. Bodhi article recommended by Swee Boon - interesting > so far) I'm convinced that this 'practise' makes more sense. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Jhana is far more directly within one's grasp than significant vipassana. Without prior cultivation of calm, clarity, and other wholesome factors through sila and samadhi (right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration), now or in past lives, development of insight will be negligible. Don't forget, wisdom is the sword that cuts through the defilements. It isn't easy to come by. Of course, we typically know nothing of our past lives, and we cannot depend on what we might or might not have accomplished then. But *now* is the time we *do* know, and *now* is the time to purify the mind. ----------------------------------------- > > This is no indictment of 'meditation' per se. Maybe growing up in a > fundamentalist religion where the naive solution to everything was to > 'pray' conditions this response of mine - no doubt it does. And I > suppose one could accuse me of simply following another crowd when I > state that I've been convinced by Dhamma I've been given to learn > about here on DSG that 'meditation' has a broader meaning and > 'application' than 'sitting on a cushion'. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Bhavana/cultivation has a far broader meaning than only meditation. But meditation is a very important part of it, and often the word 'bhavana' has the restricted sense of "meditation". The normal gateway to the jhanas is meditation. Entering the jhanas by some other means is rare, though, due to prior cultivation and current conditions, not impossible. There are rare reports of falling into (apparent) jhanas in many traditions, Buddhist and non-Buddhist. ----------------------------------------- > > H: "My meditating is as good as it is, no better and no worse. Being > reasonably adept at introspection, I can tell you that it is a > wholesome and useful practice for me. I follow the Buddha's meditation > instructions, with the aid of some others who, I believe, understand > them well, as best I can, but I am anything but an authority. I've > told you pretty much of what I can about my own meditating." > > Yes and this is clear. I failed to thank you for the personal aspect > in your response, for the explication of your own experience. This is > always appreciated. I am familiar with the way in which some of the > constituents of jhaana 'feel' by experience. This experience has > given me to notice their fleeting nature. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: For it truly to be jhana, all the conditions need be in place, and the "locked-in" nature of a jhana makes it not SO fleeting. ---------------------------------------- I've not pursued it enough> > to see if these dhammas would cohere over time into what is described > as jhaana. I'd even imagined recently that perhaps it might be worth > the experiment, just to see if there is jhaana or not, to sit with > that goal in mind. I realised the folly of such a pursuit. > > H: "For 'official' and technical descriptions you will need to turn > elsewhere. If your aim is to learn about meditating and the jhanas, I > think you should read the reports of experts and you should find a > good meditation teacher and do some hands-on (actually minds-on) > meditation of your own. If your aim is to debunk it or the practicing > of it, I'd suggest dropping that and getting on to more useful pursuits." > > You may recall my struggles with the 'find a teacher' dilemna a few > months back. My aim is to learn what is possible for me and how best > to 'proceed'. If I can 'meditate' from the moment of waking to the > moment of falling asleep and if every element of experience is > potentially object of wisdom; if there is no control because of the > impermanence of dhammas which are anatta, and if I am of limited time, > then I find vipassanaa to fit the bill. ------------------------------------- Howard: 'Vipassana' is a synonym for 'pa~n~na', and it is not something one can "practice". It can be cultivated, but not without a significant degree of calm also cultivated. So-called insight meditation (of various stripes) will be shallow and unproductive unless there is a strong samatha component present as well. And (strictly absorptive) samatha meditation will not on its own serve to liberate but only lead into such jhanas as the Buddha was trained in before he did on his own what was needed to be done. For me, the most typically "Buddhist" meditation is in-tandem meditation, such as that presented in the Anapanasati Sutta, cultivating both samatha and vipassana. --------------------------------------- > > I don't think I want to 'debunk' the pursuit of jhaana. I know the > reality of it. I appreciate that you don't see yourself as an > 'expert' in 'meditation'. I was hoping the 'meditators' (as I call > you - sorry) could provide some material for me to consider and > confront. There is freedom to confront DSG 'party-line' and so there > is freedom to confront Counter-DSG 'party-line' I figure. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Meditation is experiential. There are many decent teachers of it. I think you might consider looking at some of what Ven. Vimalaramsi has taught on the subject. I think he is rather good. If you want any web references for him, you can write me offline. (James may be a bit less favorably inclined than I with regard to his teaching, but you can judge for yourself.) ------------------------------------------- > > (This latter comment conditioned the impulse to put down one of those > smiley-winky guys and so I figured it was a potentially dangerous > comment as a result and, giving it a second look, I decide it is an > innocuous and a fair statement and so...) > > ;-) > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > ======================== With metta, Howard P.S Have a happy new year, Scott. And everyone else here as well - a healthy, happy, peaceful and fruitful year! #66650 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:27 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana IV, 6, colour. nilovg Hi Howard, Howard: No, I understand the point, and it is an important one. It isn't what I am talking about, though. I'm pointing to the differences among visual objects - to the uniqueness of their natures. ----------------------------------------- N: You want to emphasize that visible objects are different and all of them are seen. That is good, otherwise people may think that they are all grey. -------- Howard: What I am alluding to is that the redness, and > blackness, and the > disk shape are not arbitary, but are determined not only by the > sa~n~nic & > sankharic processing, but by the eye-door object - it's nature - as > well. It is > observed as described, whereas other visual objects are observed > differently ------- N: But I would like to emphasize something else, although it does not have to do directly with your remarks: it does not matter what the colour is that is seen, more important: it is only a rupa, the rupa that is visible object. It is different from nama, and they appear only one at a time. This is to be known by direct understanding, not just by reasoning. This understanding can develop by direct awareness of either nama or rupa when it appears, and this is patipatti, conditioned by pariyatti, as Sukin explained. Nina. #66651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:50 am Subject: meditation nilovg Hi James and Scott, I have abreak from my hard work by your posts, and so amusing. James: What one person considers abrasive, someone else might not consider it such a big deal. But I can understand your feeling of protectiveness for Nina (I think many people in this group feel that way). But, I think that Nina is a lot tougher than people give her credit for. N: ha, ha, I also laughed when reading Scott's post about protecting me from Howard. So funny. Howard is the kindest person. I like it when he says: Now, Nina, please tell me... Or that whole series I shall keep for later. I hope you all, Scott, James, Howard, will continue the dialogue in good spirit. Nina. #66652 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana IV, 6, colour. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - > N: But I would like to emphasize something else, although it does not > have to do directly with your remarks: it does not matter what the > colour is that is seen, more important: it is only a rupa, the rupa > that is visible object. It is different from nama, and they appear > only one at a time. > ---------------------------------- Howard: That is entirely clear to me. ---------------------------------- This is to be known by direct understanding, not > > just by reasoning. --------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed. I do not take rupa for nama nor nama for rupa. That consusion never seems to arise for me. They are utterly unalike to me, similar only with respect to the tilakkhana. ----------------------------------- > This understanding can develop by direct awareness > of either nama or rupa when it appears, and this is patipatti, > conditioned by pariyatti, as Sukin explained. -------------------------------------- Howard: I do not see it as such at all. As far as I am concerned, it is a *fruit* of practice. -------------------------------------- With metta, Howard #66653 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:44 am Subject: if not Pakatupanissaya nilovg Hi Larry, "U Narada explains in Guide to Conditional Relations (p. 181) under Natural Strong Dependence that strong asynchronous kamma is in the Natural Strong Dependence Group. Conditional Relations, p. 163: under Natural Strong Dependence " L: Is this correct: Kamma accumulates, becoming strong, and a result such as eye consciousness or rebirth consciousness arises at a later date. ------ N: the mentioning of strong asynchronous kamma only means: a powerful deed done already (already strong, not weak kamma) accumulates in the citta so that it brings result later on. It does not mean that happens what you say here: We speak now only about a kamma that conditions vipaaka later on, and for this to happen not only kamma condition operates, but also Natural Strong Dependence. -------- L: Desire conditions desire, mindfulness conditions mindfulness. ------ N: This is another aspect: kusala and akusala accumulate so that there are conditions for their arising again. ------- L: Kamma result does not accumulate. N: Right. But pleasant and unpleasant vipaaka can condition kusala citta and akusala citta that react to it, by way of Natural Strong Dependence. -------- L: Also, I was wondering what "natural" means here and if it is different from the "natural" in "natural law" (niyama). I understand how "law" differs from "strong dependence". ------ N: Yes, different. The order in which cittas in a process arise is because of niyama. It is like a law nobody can alter. Nina. #66654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana IV, 6, colour. nilovg Hi Howard, this can be the beginning of a new thread, very actual and important. I know in theory, but o the practice! Good for later. Nina. Op 31-dec-2006, om 20:39 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Howard: > Yes, indeed. I do not take rupa for nama nor nama for rupa. That > consusion never seems to arise for me. They are utterly unalike to > me, similar only > with respect to the tilakkhana. #66655 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] meditation upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/31/06 3:00:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > N: ha, ha, I also laughed when reading Scott's post about protecting > me from Howard. So funny. Howard is the kindest person. I like it > when he says: Now, Nina, please tell me... Or that whole series I > shall keep for later. > I hope you all, Scott, James, Howard, will continue the dialogue in > good spirit. > Nina. > ======================== You are really a sweetheart, Nina! It's a true pleasure having you and Lodewijk as friends. :-) With much metta, Howard #66656 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana IV, 6, colour. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/31/06 3:16:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes with regard to distinguishing nama from rupa: > Hi Howard, > this can be the beginning of a new thread, very actual and important. > I know in theory, but o the practice! Good for later. > Nina. > ===================== For the new year, then! Something to look forward to! :-) With metta, Howard #66657 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Robert, Thanks: R: "In case you got the wrong idea, it is certainly appropriate to correct wrong views - if we can. When I say it is natural I don't mean it is good that there is so much adhamma about these days." I think I got your point. The word 'natural' made me think of the current discussion on natural decisive support condition and hence thought its natural for adhamma to arise given conditions. And no its not good. I don't really have the credibility to correct wrong views but sometimes I can notice them. Sincerely, Scott. #66658 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 ken_aitch Hi all, Owing to computer problems, I have been absent from DSG for most of the past seven days. I see I have been missing some excellent discussions: ----------------------- Howard wrote to Scott: > I follow the Buddha's meditation instructions, with the aid of some others who, I believe, understand them well, as best I can, but I am anything but an authority. I've told you pretty much of what I can about my own meditating. For "official" and technical descriptions you will need to turn elsewhere. If your aim is to learn about meditating and the jhanas, I think you should read the reports of experts and you should find a good meditation teacher and do some hands-on (actually minds-on) meditation of your own. If your aim is to debunk it or the practicing of it, I'd suggest dropping that and getting on to more useful pursuits. ----------------------- To my mind, the debunking of formal vipassana practices is not a mere, endless debate. It is a way of sharing with others one's own precious understanding of Abhidhamma. It is also a way of strengthening that understanding. While many Buddhists study Abhidhamma, very few of them can combine it with their daily life. That is why, for example, no Abhidhamma-pitaka material is found at Access to Insight - as John Bullitt explains, it is "not helpful to meditation." It would be a terrible shame if the heart of the Buddha's teaching really were an impediment to vipassana practice. But here at DSG we can learn that it does not interfere with it at all. Abhidhamma is vipassana practice! Ken H #66659 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:15 pm Subject: happy new year gazita2002 Hello all at dsg, Happy new year to everyone. May the following years be full of wisdom and understanding of the Buddha's beautiful teachings. May all beings be happy, azita #66660 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:21 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, All other readers of the essay, A very good essay: SB: "Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a thesis on this and I agree with him." Conclusion 2: "...If we go along with the Commentaries in recognising the Abhidhammic distinction between preparatory path and supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhaanas included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature..." I'm tempted to make something of this distinction between 'mundane' and 'supramundane' jhaana. I'd appreciate some input on this but is it fair to say that supramundane jhaana is concentration which accompanies the magga and phala cittas and is therefore equally 'intantaneous'? Sincerely, Scott. #66661 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:20 pm Subject: Photos of Bill Jones buddhatrue Dear Members, I have uploaded pictures of Bill Jones to the Members folder and Members Significant Others & Family folder. There are two pictures of Bill Jones at Wat Pah Nanachat in Thailand (Members folder); and a picture of Bill Jones with his wife in southern Thailand (Members Significant Others & Family folder). HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!! Metta, James Ps. If anyone else would like help uploading pictures, please don't hesitate to contact me (I need all the good karma I can get! ;-)) #66662 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:54 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Swee Boon, All other readers of the essay, > > A very good essay: > > SB: "Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a thesis on this and I agree with him." > > Conclusion 2: > > "...If we go along with the Commentaries in recognising the > Abhidhammic distinction between preparatory path and supramundane > path, then we can maintain that the jhaanas included in right > concentration as a path factor pertain to the supramundane path and > are thus of supramundane stature..." > > I'm tempted to make something of this distinction between 'mundane' > and 'supramundane' jhaana. I'd appreciate some input on this but is > it fair to say that supramundane jhaana is concentration which > accompanies the magga and phala cittas and is therefore equally > 'intantaneous'? > __________ Dear Scott, In the Atthasalini, The expositor PTS (translator : maung tin). P58. Triplets in the Matika "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall." "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth" The last two chapters in this section explain all the different types of "MUNDANE" Jhanas. Note that mundane jhanas are said to be bricks in the wall of samsara. The start of the next chapter is where it discusses the eight-fold path. The Discourse on LOKUTTARA (transcendental). "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momentary FLASH of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral (kusala) consciousness of the three planes[includes all levels of "mundane" jhana]" I think it is unfortunate that Bhhikku Bodhi rejects the ancient Theravada texts in his essay, and in other comments he makes in his translations. Robert #66663 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:07 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Scott, Scott: For example, when I was involved in a more general Buddhist forum, one often reads others to talk about needing to 'get back to the meditation cushion', and often as a comment balancing some attempt at understanding a point of Dhamma. James: That does sound rather silly…"Oh, I don't understand this aspect of dhamma; I guess I need to get back to the meditation cushion." There is no guarantee that going to the meditation cushion is going to make that person understand the point any better. Since he/she has this superficial idea about meditation, it is most likely that it wouldn't help the understanding at all. Insight (vipassana) cannot be made to arise at will; it depends on conditions. Meditation practice is just one of those conditions so there isn't a direct and single correlation between meditation and insight. Scott: This was repeated often enough by enough people that I began to see it more as a rather rote phrase and personally found it rather thoughtless. I also felt the group contagion effect setting in. James: That sounds like a really nutty group. They have given you the wrong ideas about meditation practice and meditators. From that group, you would think that all meditators are superficial loons. Again, don't judge meditation or anything about the dhamma by your impression of people who claim to practice it, judge for yourself from the texts. The Buddha is the supreme teacher, not some wackos on the Internet ;-)). Scott: If jhaana is a rare and rarified 'state' the pursuit of which being possibly beyond one's capacities, and if vipassanaa is within one's reach, as it were, and essentially of the same process that makes the use of jhaana transformative (as I understand it - I've yet to finish reading the Bh. Bodhi article recommended by Swee Boon - interesting so far) I'm convinced that this 'practise' makes more sense. James: First, vipassana is not a practice; it is a Pali word that means insight. Second, if you mean vipassana meditation, then I wouldn't recommend that as the Buddha didn't teach it. If you mean satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness), then by all means you should be practicing that. But again, just like meditation, there is no guarantee that satipatthana alone will result in the arising of insight. If you think so, then you will be just as superficial as those meditators from the other group, "Oh, I don't understand this aspect of dhamma; I guess I need to practice more daily mindfulness!" There is a Noble Eightfold Path to follow to create the conditions for the arising of insight; Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration need to be followed as well as the six other factors. I know that there is some sort of `mystique' to the practice and attainment of jhana, but it is really no more ratified than satipatthana. They both require extraordinary states of mind. Weak jhana (momentary and access concentration) will result in weak insight and weak satipatthana will result in weak insight. The mind is very complicated and its purification isn't simple or easy. What KS teaches (the 'DSG party line' as you describe it) is like a fad diet, a one-trick wonder for people who are desperate for quick and easy solutions. But fad diets don't work in the long run. Metta, James #66664 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Howard and Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: I > think you might consider looking at some of what Ven. Vimalaramsi has taught on > the subject. I think he is rather good. If you want any web references for > him, you can write me offline. (James may be a bit less favorably inclined than I > with regard to his teaching, but you can judge for yourself.) Yeah, I don't agree with what Ven. Vimalaramsi teaches in regards to meditation practice because it doens't correspond with what the Buddha taught (though he claims otherwise). But, Scott, by all means check him out if you feel so inclined. However, Scott, I would recommend reading the article "Keeping the Breath in Mind" and following its techniques as it more closely follows what the Buddha taught: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html#toc I practice the technique taught in this article and find it very beneficial. Though I don't believe I have experienced any of the jhanas yet, from this technique I experience the 'perception of light' that the Buddha taught about, in practically every sitting. This is encouraging to me that I am on the right track (though you may think otherwise ;-)). Hope this helps!! Metta, James #66665 From: connie Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:45 pm Subject: A fix on [dsg] external rupas - sensational! nichiconn Sarah: What else do you have in your Xmas stocking? connie: Incredibly, from Sacred Texts, the address for a single file version of CAFRD's !! http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html ...o what fun it is to read! back to the commentary now for sure. and how about that real heavy surf... "a recluse or a brahmin with magic power who has his mind well controlled... may, by intense concentration on the image of the widest expanse of water, make this earth move and tremble" best wishes thru-out the new year, connie #66666 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:57 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Robert, Thanks for the material. This is beautiful, in my opinion: "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momentary FLASH of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral (kusala) consciousness of the three planes[includes all levels of "mundane" jhana]" The text goes on: "...So it sets about pulling down and demolishing decrease and rebirth heaped up by the three-planed moral consciousness, by bringing about a deficiency in the causes thereof; hence it is 'leading to dispersion for the putting away of wrong views.'" R: "I think it is unfortunate that Bhhikku Bodhi rejects the ancient Theravada texts in his essay, and in other comments he makes in his translations." I think its unfortunate the amount of disrespect generally shown towards these ancient sources of knowledge. At least Bh. Bodhi has translated many of the Commentaries. Neglect, in my opinion, is a much more serious sign of disrespect. These must be read and read. Sincerely, Scott. #66667 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:03 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" > R: "I think it is unfortunate that Bhhikku Bodhi rejects the ancient > Theravada texts in his essay, and in other comments he makes in his > translations." > > I think its unfortunate the amount of disrespect generally shown > towards these ancient sources of knowledge. At least Bh. Bodhi has > translated many of the Commentaries. Neglect, in my opinion, is a > much more serious sign of disrespect. These must be read and read. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. Hi Scott Rejects is probably too strong a word. I should have said he considers the Commentaries but sometimes disagrees with them. Why he does that is not clear to me. Robert > #66668 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:24 pm Subject: Evident Faith! bhikkhu5 Friends: Where does Faith and Confidence Lead? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, the well explained Dhamma is clear, open, evident, and free of patchwork. In this very clear, open, evident, and unstitched Dhamma, those who are Dhamma-followers or are Faith-followers are all headed for Enlightenment... Bhikkhus, the well explained Dhamma is clear, open, evident, and free of patchwork. In this very clear, open, evident, and unstitched Dhamma, those who have enough faith in me, and enough devotion for me, are all headed for Divine Existence... Source: MN 22: Alagaddupama Sutta: The Snake Simile http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.nypo.html The Noble Dhamma-follower is a Noble Person whose main quality is Understanding. He who understands that all constructions are impersonal & lacking self, by thus gaining the ability of wisdom, he is at the moment of Stream-Entrance a Dhamma-devotee... The Noble Faith-follower is a Noble Person whose main quality is Conviction. He who is filled with determination and dedication, who considers all constructions as impermanent & lacking stability, by thus gaining the ability of faith, he is at the path moment of Stream-Entrance a Faith-devotee... For the various kinds of Noble Disciples see: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/a/ariya_puggala.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #66669 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 4:10 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Scott, > What do you agree with in particular? It will be interesting to > discuss this. I agree with him when he says "I myself believe there is strong evidence in the Nikāyas that the jhānas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner.". > I find that I wish Bh. Bodhi had written the unwritten essay on the > possibility of 'dry-insight' and the nature of the Commentaries he > mentions at the end of the paper. I once thought that 'dry-insight' arahants are possible. But now I think it is an impossibility. There is no direct positive evidence in the Nikayas supporting this view, but there is direct positive evidence in the Nikayas supporting the opposite, especially MN 64, if I am not wrong. > I'm tempted to make something of this distinction between 'mundane' > and 'supramundane' jhaana. I'd appreciate some input on this but is > it fair to say that supramundane jhaana is concentration which > accompanies the magga and phala cittas and is therefore equally > 'intantaneous'? In my opinion, I don't think the Buddha made such a distinction in the Nikayas. He taught only one system of jhanas. Such distinction is convoluted to me, an unnecessary complication. Swee Boon #66670 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Scott) - In a message dated 12/31/06 10:30:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Yeah, I don't agree with what Ven. Vimalaramsi teaches in regards to > meditation practice because it doens't correspond with what the > Buddha taught (though he claims otherwise). But, Scott, by all means > check him out if you feel so inclined. > > However, Scott, I would recommend reading the article "Keeping the > Breath in Mind" and following its techniques as it more closely > follows what the Buddha taught: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html#toc > > I practice the technique taught in this article and find it very > beneficial. Though I don't believe I have experienced any of the > jhanas yet, from this technique I experience the 'perception of > light' that the Buddha taught about, in practically every sitting. > This is encouraging to me that I am on the right track (though you > may think otherwise ;-)). > > Hope this helps!! > > Metta, > James > ======================== James, I've looked over "Method 1" in "Keeping the Breath in Mind". I would expect that unusual meditative experiences might well arise from such practice, which sounds like a kind of tantric approach to me, and perhaps it is very useful. But I am amazed that while you consider Ven. Vimalaramsi's teaching to not correspond to what the Buddha taught, you consider this approach of Ajahn Lee Dhammadaro's to more closely follow what the Buddha taught. For me it is quite the opposite! ;-) Ah, well, "to each according to his accumulations"! ;-)) With metta, Howard #66671 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 8:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi James & Howard, > > However, Scott, I would recommend reading the article "Keeping > > the Breath in Mind" and following its techniques as it more > > closely follows what the Buddha taught: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html#toc > James, I've looked over "Method 1" in "Keeping the Breath in Mind". > I would expect that unusual meditative experiences might well arise > from such practice, which sounds like a kind of tantric approach to > me, and perhaps it is very useful. I read the article and something caught my attention. It's regarding this so-called nimitta of the breath - the brilliantly white ball or lump of light. I once experienced this bright white light while meditating on the breath. At this point, the breath is very subtle and light. Quite peaceful. But I am not sure of the usefulness of this bright white light. I never pursued it further. Swee Boon #66672 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and James, Scott, and all) - In a message dated 1/1/07 11:22:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > I read the article and something caught my attention. It's regarding > this so-called nimitta of the breath - the brilliantly white ball or > lump of light. > > I once experienced this bright white light while meditating on the > breath. At this point, the breath is very subtle and light. Quite > peaceful. > > But I am not sure of the usefulness of this bright white light. I > never pursued it further. > > Swee Boon > ========================= It's hard to say what that might be. It could be "access-concentration" experience - what the Zen folks dismiss as "makyo", or it could be more. (When I once apparently shuffled between 2nd & 5th jhanas, there was the experience of infinite space suffused by brilliant light and accompanied by extraordinary joy. But as I have mentioned before, that experience, *perhaps* due to its brevity, had no fruitful consequences as far as I know.) `What I mainly value in meditation is the combination of great tranquillity and great clarity, because I find that it is in such a context that it is easiest to examine what is actually occuring, with neither excitement nor lethargy interfering. With metta, Howard #66673 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 8:38 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > James, I've looked over "Method 1" in "Keeping the Breath in Mind". I > would expect that unusual meditative experiences might well arise from such > practice, which sounds like a kind of tantric approach to me, and perhaps it is > very useful. But I am amazed that while you consider Ven. Vimalaramsi's > teaching to not correspond to what the Buddha taught, you consider this approach of > Ajahn Lee Dhammadaro's to more closely follow what the Buddha taught. For me > it is quite the opposite! ;-) Ah, well, "to each according to his > accumulations"! ;-)) Hi Howard, No, it is not because of our accumulations. It is because I have studied the Buddha's suttas, all of them in print, and I know what the Buddha taught in regards to meditation. Personally, I don't follow Method 1 of Ajahn's Lee's methods (I find it rather complicated), I follow Method 2. But there is nothing `tantric' about what Ajahn Lee is teaching in Method 1 and it does correspond to what the Buddha taught in regards to meditation. From the Samadhi Sutta: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html Ven. Vimalaramsi's teaching doesn't correspond with the Buddha's teaching because Ven. V has a step in his teaching of breath meditation called "How". The meditator is supposed to notice "how" the mind moves away from the meditation object (the breath), relax, and then return attention back to the meditation object. Ven. V believes that this step is necessary for one to understand dependent origination. I'm sorry, but Ven. V is simply teaching a different form of vipassana meditation, which the Buddha didn't teach. In summary, he is attempting to create the artificial arising of insight into dependent origination by having the meditator notice "how" the mind moves away from the meditation object. This step is completely unnecessary and convoluted. Insight into dependent origination will arise on it's own at enlightenment, it can't be forced or slowly cultivated with Ven. V's meditation step of figuring out "how" the mind moves each time it moves. I could go into more detail but I quit Ven. V's group when I figured out that he isn't teaching what the Buddha taught. I don't have access to all of the supplementary material in the files section of his discussion group. I could have posted my findings to his group itself, but I thought that would be tacky- so I just quit. Metta, James #66674 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 8:40 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for your reply: SB: "I agree with him when he says "I myself believe there is strong evidence in the Nikaayas that the jhaanas become an essential factor for those intent on advancing from the stage of once-returning to that of non-returner." I think the arguments hinge on a more clear understanding of jhaana citta. I think, when one speaks of jhaana as 'meditative' practise, one ignores that, in fact, this is really a 'state' conditioned by the contiguous arising of a certain constellation of citta and mental factors which is 'jhaana'. In other words, I think there is a tendency to think of 'jhaana' as some sort of 'whole'. I think that one mistakenly takes this 'state' - that is the experience of jhaana - in terms of a whole, semi-permanent entity one names 'jhaana', which permanence of course, it cannot have. Why? Because each moment of consciousness arises and falls away. Since this is an essential and basic fact, one needs to consider jhaana from the single moment of consciousness perspective first and from the perspective of complex conditionality second. That being said, I'd consider your next point: SB: "I once thought that 'dry-insight' arahants are possible. But now I think it is an impossibility. There is no direct positive evidence in the Nikayas supporting this view, but there is direct positive evidence in the Nikayas supporting the opposite, especially MN 64, if I am not wrong." Yes, in MN 64 the Buddha does point out to Ananda 'the way to abandoning the five lower fetters': "...a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhaana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion." (MN64,9,~Naa.namoli/Bodhi) This, I would say, is 'mundane' jhaana. The next statement refers to the actual mutative aspect: "Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not-self." And what is this moment of 'seeing'? Note 655 (related to the above): "This passage shows the development of insight (vipassanaa) upon a basis of serenity (samatha), using the jhaana on which the practise of insight is based as an object of insight contemplation...Here two terms - impermanent and disintegrating - show the characteristic of impermanence; three terms - alien, void, and not-self - show the characteristic of non-self; the remaining six terms show the characteristic of suffering." Again, the mutative event here is not jhaana but the moment of insight; the moment of consciousness which becomes object of pa~n~na is a moment of 'jhaana consciousness'. Mundane jhaana, as I think the Buddha demonstrates, is just another accumulation leading to rebirth. SB: "In my opinion, I don't think the Buddha made such a distinction in the Nikayas. He taught only one system of jhanas. Such distinction is convoluted to me, an unnecessary complication." Yes, I won't try too hard here since you are clear that you are of the above opinion. Even Bh. Bodhi notes that it is not as unequivocal as all that. In Note 23, regarding MN 117, he shows the paali for one of the "two kinds of path factors", that is: "'ariya anaasava lokuttara magga"nga'", [meaning] "noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path". I think the essay is, among other things, considering the development of paths and fruits (as much as jhaana as a vehicle is a focus). This development is functionally due to certain significant moments of consciousness which permanently alter the conditions which determine subsequent moments of consciousness. This is eradication. How do the jhaanas contribute to this? I think it is important, as I note above, to remember that jhaana is a moment of consciousness which contains certain definitive constituents. Bh. Bodhi seems clear in setting out his opinion that, for stream entry, the 'practise of jhaana' as 'meditative' pursuit is unnecessary. I think one needs to consider the role of jhaana - and here I mean to refer to the mental factors which are its constituents - in the arising of magga and phala cittas. Bh. Bodhi notes: "The way to stream entry certainly requires a degree of concentration sufficient for the eye of the Dhamma to arise..." He goes on to say that, "...every path and fruition attainment, from the stage of fruition up is also a jhaana, and thus all path-attainers are attainers of supramundane jhaana." By not committing the error of taking jhaana for a semi-permanent state or a whole endowed with its own mutative functions and by keeping in mind that jhaana citta - the momentary arising - is part of the sequence of moments of consciousness which culminate in the arising of the magga and phala cittas one needn't be confused about jhaana. I'll stop now. Thanks for discussing. Sincerely, Scott. #66675 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 9:54 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 167 nilovg Dear friends, Jhåna-cittas are not kåmåvacara cittas, they are of another plane of consciousness; these cittas experience with absorption a meditation subject through the mind-door. At the moment of jhåna one is freed from sense-impressions and from the defilements which are bound up with them. Jhånacittas comprise rúpåvacara cittas (rúpa-jhånacittas) and arúpåvacara cittas (arúpa-jhånacittas). Arúpa-jhåna (immaterial jhåna) is more refined than rúpa-jhåna (fine-material jhåna), since the meditation subjects of arúpa-jhåna are no longer dependent on materiality. Later on I will deal with their difference. Apart from the planes of citta which are kåmåvacara cittas, rúpåvacara cittas and arúpåvacara cittas, there is still another plane of citta: the lokuttara cittas (translated as ``supramundane cittas'') which have nibbåna as their object. Those who attain enlightenment have lokuttara cittas, experiencing nibbåna. Jhånacittas do not have as their object visible object, sound, or any other sense-object. Jhånacittas arise in a process of cittas experiencing a meditation subject through the mind-door. In this process there are first kåmåvacara cittas which experience the meditation subject and then, in that same process, the jhånacitta arises. The process is as follows: mano-dvåråvajjana-citta or mind-door adverting-consciousness parikamma or preparatory consciousness upacåra, which means: proximity or access anuloma or adaptation gotrabhú, which means: that which overcomes the sense-sphere, or ``change of lineage'' jhånacitta appanå or absorption (the moment of citta which attains jhåna) For some, ``parikamma'' (preparatory consciousness) is not necessary, and in this case there are, after the mind-door-adverting- consciousness, only three kåmåvacara cittas arising, instead of four, before the jhånacitta arises. Gotrabhú (which ``overcomes'' the sense- sphere) is the last citta in that process which is kåmåvacara citta. ******* Nina. #66676 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 9:56 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana V, 1. nilovg Dear friends, Letter about Vipassanå 5 We are disturbed by aversion, dosa, which often arises in a day and we would like to get rid of it. We would like to have more patience in difficult circumstances and more loving kindness towards others, but kusala citta does not arise very often. If we want to cultivate patience and loving kindness, we should see the disadvantage not only of dosa but also of all other kinds of akusala. We find it unpleasant to have dosa, but dosa is conditioned by attachment, lobha. Our attachment to pleasant objects conditions dosa when we do not get what we want. There are many moments of akusala we overlook. We may notice that there is akusala citta when we act or speak in an unpleasant way, but there are countless moments of thinking which are akusala and these pass unnoticed. In which way do we think of others, with kusala citta or with akusala citta? For example, when we notice someone who is dressed in a peculiar way we may find him funny looking, and there may be conceit. We compare him with ourselves, he does not conform to the way we think someone should dress. When there is conceit there is no loving kindness. When we are annoyed about something which is very unpleasant we know that there is dosa, but we may not notice dosa when it is of a lesser degree, for example, when something is not quite as it should be. Do we have kusala cittas or akusala cittas when we taste fruit which is overripe, when we see that there is a button missing, when we feel a little too cold or too hot? We find it very important how the "self" is feeling. We only want pleasant objects and we forget that seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions are produced by kamma. We cannot see kamma, it has been committed in the past, but nobody can change the result produced by kamma. If we do not accumulate kusala there will be evermore akusala accumulated from life to life. When we notice that there are so few moments of loving kindness, mettå, in a day and so many akusala cittas, we may become discouraged. However, there is no self who can prevent the arising of akusala and cause mettå to arise immediately. Akusala citta as well as kusala citta are nåmas which arise because of their own conditions, they are beyond control. It depends on one's accumulated inclinations what type of citta arises at a particular moment. Through the study of the Dhamma there will be more understanding of the different characteristics of kusala and akusala. The Dhamma is the condition for less ignorance in one's life. If we want to develop mettå we must have a precise knowledge of its characteristic when it arises. At the moment of mettå one is not selfish, one only thinks of the wellbeing of someone else. There is kindness without expecting anything in return. ******* Nina. #66677 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 5:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/1/07 11:45:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > James, I've looked over "Method 1" in "Keeping the Breath in > Mind". I > >would expect that unusual meditative experiences might well arise > from such > >practice, which sounds like a kind of tantric approach to me, and > perhaps it is > >very useful. But I am amazed that while you consider Ven. > Vimalaramsi's > >teaching to not correspond to what the Buddha taught, you consider > this approach of > >Ajahn Lee Dhammadaro's to more closely follow what the Buddha > taught. For me > >it is quite the opposite! ;-) Ah, well, "to each according to his > >accumulations"! ;-)) > Hi Howard, > > No, it is not because of our accumulations. It is because I have > studied the Buddha's suttas, all of them in print, and I know what > the Buddha taught in regards to meditation. Personally, I don't > follow Method 1 of Ajahn's Lee's methods (I find it rather > complicated), I follow Method 2. But there is nothing `tantric' > about what Ajahn Lee is teaching in Method 1 and it does correspond > to what the Buddha taught in regards to meditation. From the Samadhi > Sutta: > > "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & > pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge &vision? There is the > case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved > on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] > is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an > awareness open &unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is > the development of concentration that, when developed &pursued, > leads to the attainment of knowledge &vision. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, but nothing is said there about seven-time shifting of attention from nose tip to middle of forehead, then the same between forehead and mid-brain, then between mid-brain and mid-chest, all of which is at least reminiscent of cakra meditations. I don't recall ever seeing such in any sutta or in any Theravadin tradition but a certain questionable one, Wat Luang Phor Sodh Dhammakayaram, whose website is http://www.concentration.org/homepage.htm . Again, I don't claim that there is nothing to gain from these practices. There may well be. What I do claim is that their coming from the Buddha is farfrom obvious. ------------------------------------------------- . > > Ven. Vimalaramsi's teaching doesn't correspond with the Buddha's > teaching because Ven. V has a step in his teaching of breath > meditation called "How". The meditator is supposed to notice "how" > the mind moves away from the meditation object (the breath), relax, > and then return attention back to the meditation object. Ven. V > believes that this step is necessary for one to understand dependent > origination. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Well would that not involve noticing craving, aversion, and any of a variety of hindrances, fundamental to meditation as described in the Satipatthana Sutta? Aside from that issue, the element that Ven V considers the most important in the Buddha's meditation as taught in such suttas as the Satipatthana Sutta and Anapanasati Sutta that he believes is generally missing or underemphasized in highly-focused-concentration meditation teachings is the "relaxing" element - the permitting of the body and mind to calm down prior to returning to the primary process, or as the Buddha puts it: "Calming bodily fabrication" and "Calming mental fabrication". -------------------------------------------- > > I'm sorry, but Ven. V is simply teaching a different form of > vipassana meditation, which the Buddha didn't teach. In summary, he > is attempting to create the artificial arising of insight into > dependent origination by having the meditator notice "how" the mind > moves away from the meditation object. This step is completely > unnecessary and convoluted. Insight into dependent origination will > arise on it's own at enlightenment, it can't be forced or slowly > cultivated with Ven. V's meditation step of figuring out "how" the > mind moves each time it moves. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The mind will notice what it will notice, of course. But monitoring what is going on, attending to what is going on, is certainly central to meditation, and it enables noticing what is going on. And typically it is easiest to note what is going on at moments of change, as when attention is led away from the breath in anapanasati practice. So, if one continually practices mindful attention, noting the urges that lead to distraction is not so surprising a feat - it becomes rather natural. In fact, I'm sure you frequently observe this yourself. -------------------------------------------------- > > I could go into more detail but I quit Ven. V's group when I figured > out that he isn't teaching what the Buddha taught. I don't have > access to all of the supplementary material in the files section of > his discussion group. I could have posted my findings to his group > itself, but I thought that would be tacky- so I just quit. ------------------------------------------- Howard: That's fine. To me, though, by adopting Ajahn Lee Dhammadaro's approach you have jumped from the frying pan (if that's what Ven V's approach is) right into the fire! LOL! ------------------------------------------ > > Metta, > James > > ===================== With metta, Howard #66678 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 5:32 am Subject: Correction Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 upasaka_howard Hi, James - I miixed the steps in the following: In a message dated 1/1/07 1:16:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes: > Yes, but nothing is said there about seven-time shifting of attention from > nose tip to middle of forehead, then the same between forehead and mid-brain, > then between mid-brain and mid-chest, all of which is at least reminiscent > of cakra meditations. What I should have written was "... seven-time shifting of attention from nose tip to middle of forehead, then the same between forehead and crown of head, then between crown of head and mid-brain, and then between mid-brain and mid-chest, all of which is at least reminiscent of cakra meditations." Wouldn't want to cause any cakra disharmony in someone who followed my incorrect directions. :-) With metta, Howard #66679 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] One-trick poney nilovg Hi Howard, good: the difference between nama and rupa. But I want to tell you about a little happening. At dinner we talked about your expression a one-trick poney, I understand what you mean. For the arising of insight more conditions are needed, not just one. There was water leaking from our little Christmas tree, all over the cupboard. Lodewijk was looking at the mess and could not listen to my usual Abh. reading. He said: Howard is right that you need some quiet to concentrate. Later on I read from the Vipassana Letter (posted now): I pointed at the mess caused by the water, saying: now here comes the practice. We see the disadvantage of impatience and this can be a condition for kusala instead of akusala. See, all perfections that are developed now, in daily life can accumulate and together they form conditions for insight. Many, many conditions are needed. It seems an unimportant event, but we need patience in very small things, like a missing button, it all happens right now and we overlook this. I begin to understand that a concurrence of conditions over the years can lead to insight, but it happens very gradually. We have to think of a long period. my good wish for everybody: may we all cultivate patience, even where it concerns seemingly trivial matters, Nina. Op 31-dec-2006, om 21:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > For the new year, then! Something to look forward to! :-) #66680 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 11:16 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas - sensational! nilovg Dear Connie, Thank you for the link, I was surprised. Thank you for your good wishes, and the same to you, Nina. Op 1-jan-2007, om 5:45 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > connie: Incredibly, from Sacred Texts, the address for a single file > version of CAFRD's !! #66681 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] One-trick poney upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk) - I like the following, Nina. Dhamma practice and one's life are best together - as an integrated whole. :-) A bit more below, in context: In a message dated 1/1/07 2:28:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > good: the difference between nama and rupa. But I want to tell you > about a little happening. At dinner we talked about your expression a > one-trick poney, I understand what you mean. For the arising of > insight more conditions are needed, not just one. There was water > leaking from our little Christmas tree, all over the cupboard. > Lodewijk was looking at the mess and could not listen to my usual > Abh. reading. He said: Howard is right that you need some quiet to > concentrate. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, at least a modicum. But as we progress, as equanimity grows, more and more external "disturbance" will be tolerated, being internally undisturbing. The culmination, may it come soon for all of us(!), will see the blossoming of total freedom from all internal disturbance. :-) ---------------------------------------- Later on I read from the Vipassana Letter (posted > > now): and we would like to get rid of it. We would like to have more > patience in difficult circumstances and more loving kindness towards > others, but kusala citta does not arise very often. > If we want to cultivate patience and loving kindness, we should see > the disadvantage not only of dosa but also of all other kinds of > akusala. > > I pointed at the mess caused by the water, saying: now here comes > the practice. We see the disadvantage of impatience and this can be a > condition for kusala instead of akusala. See, all perfections that > are developed now, in daily life can accumulate and together they > form conditions for insight. Many, many conditions are needed. It > seems an unimportant event, but we need patience in very small > things, like a missing button, it all happens right now and we > overlook this. > -------------------------------------- Howard: In fact, one of life's ironies seems to be that often major difficulties are handled well, but "the small things" really do us in! LOL! --------------------------------------- I begin to understand that a concurrence of conditions > > over the years can lead to insight, but it happens very gradually. We > have to think of a long period. > > my good wish for everybody: may we all cultivate patience, even where > it concerns seemingly trivial matters, > Nina. > > ======================== With metta, Howard #66682 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 12:37 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 ken_aitch Hi Scott and Swee Boon, ----------------------- S: > > I'm tempted to make something of this distinction between 'mundane' > and 'supramundane' jhaana. I'd appreciate some input on this but is > it fair to say that supramundane jhaana is concentration which > accompanies the magga and phala cittas and is therefore equally > 'intantaneous'? SB: > In my opinion, I don't think the Buddha made such a distinction in the Nikayas. He taught only one system of jhanas. Such distinction is convoluted to me, an unnecessary complication. ------------------------ From previous discussions here I have gained the impression that (1) all ariyans would be able to practise mundane jhana if they put their minds to it, and (2) only those ariyans who had made jhana their "vehicle" for insight (from stream-entry onwards) would be able to exercise the resulting higher powers. Therefore, I think those arahants in the sutta who told the monk, "We do not have supernatural powers because we were freed by wisdom alone," probably were jhana meditators by that stage. It would have been, after all, a pleasant way of spending their remaining years in samsara. Ken H #66683 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 5:36 pm Subject: "Keeping the Breath in Mind" (Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0) buddhatrue Hi Howard (Scott and All), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James - all of which is at least reminiscent of cakra meditations." > Wouldn't want to cause any cakra disharmony in someone who followed my incorrect > directions. :-) LOL! I know that this method may seem reminiscent of chakra meditation, but it most definitely is not chakra meditation! If it was chakra meditation, there is no way I would be a proponent of it or recommend it to other people as following what the Buddha taught. I know better- and you should know that I know better! :-) Okay, this is a complicated subject, but I will delve into it because I believe it is important. Chakra meditation is focusing on various energy centers in the body. There are seven of them, they are different colors, and they follow a straight line up and down through the body. The purpose of chakra meditation is to align these energy centers, unblock any chakras which are blocked, and increase the energy flow through the body. More can be read about this meditation here: http://www.learningmeditation.com/chakras.htm I have never practiced chakra meditation because it doesn't lead to knowledge, wisdom, or liberation. How is this meditation different from what Ajahn Lee is teaching in Method 1? Ajahn Lee is teaching the focusing of mindfulness on the bases of breath (not chakras). The Vism. also describes these bases of breath, so there is a basis for them in Theravada Buddhism. The bases of breath are the nostrils, tip of the nose, center of the forehead, and abdomen (Ajahn Lee adds the top of the head, but that is just a more subtle base of breath). The bases of the breath are the areas where the breath can be felt as a physical sensation. As the breath comes into the nostrils, it can be felt at the nostrils and tip of the nose, as the breath goes up the nostrils it can be felt in the nasal cavities which are directly behind the forehead, it can further be felt at the top of the head from the pressure of the air (but much more subtle), as the breath goes down the wind pipes and into the lungs, it can be felt in the abdomen. Howard, these are just centers of physical sensation and have nothing to do with the chakras! Ajahn Lee is teaching one to focus concentration on these bases of breath (physical sensations) until the nimitta of light appears in the middle of the brain. This nimitta of light is to be expanded and suffused throughout the body. Ajahn Lee states that this method will lead to knowledge (mundane and psychic) and visions (mundane and psychic). This is the EXACT same thing that the Buddha teaches in the Samadhi Sutta*. Furthermore, Ajahn Lee points out that such knowledge and vision is mundane until it is united and seen as suffering, impermanent, and non-self. Again, what the Buddha teaches! I, again, stand by my original recommendation of this article as following the Buddha's teaching and believe that anyone who follows it will benefit greatly. Metta, James *And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. #66684 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 5:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] One-trick poney buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > my good wish for everybody: may we all cultivate patience, even where > it concerns seemingly trivial matters, > Nina. This is a beautiful post and I agree with everything you write here. Life is filled with many small lessons and chances to practice. I hope you write more posts like this one during 2007! One of my New Year's resolutions is to practice more patience, especially toward myself. I can be very patient of my students, friends, etc., but I am not very patient with myself. Interesting- not sure why. But I am going to work on that. HAPPY NEW YEAR! Metta, James #66685 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 2:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Keeping the Breath in Mind" (Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps s... upasaka_howard Hi, James - Thank you, James. A well done defense! :-) With metta, Howard #66686 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 11:14 pm Subject: Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year jwromeijn In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah abbott" wrote: > > Hi Joop (James & all), > > On 12/29/06, Joop wrote: > > .... > > And have a good time in Bangkok (perhaps > > you can sit quiet every day there in silence for half an hour > > or an hour, doing vipassana meditation) > > .... > > S: Just because I can't answer back quickly, Joop....:-). If it's so useful, > why only half an hour? Why not all day, all night? Wouldn't that be a faster > way to become enlightened? Hallo Sarah, James, Howard, all Yes Sarah, why only half an hour? Several times three quarters sitting meditation, (alternated with walking meditation) is better. Why not all day? I think the combination of mindfulness meditation (aka vipassana) and concentration (samatha), as Howard has explained, is the most buddhistic kind of meditation. A human being (even a monk) has to survive and some moment of the day had to eat something, to go to the toilet, sleep some hours. And that activities can not be done in the level of concentration that is needed for 'formal' meditation. So the answer is: meditate all day is - for physical reasons - simply not possible. Was is possible and needed, is being mindful all day (about all night I'm not sure). Mindful in daily life is even important as doing 'formal' meditation, and that meditation is a good exercise that makes being mindful in daily life better (What is 'better'? Perhaps I can say 'deeper' but more exact is: 'clearer'). Perhaps there are people that don't need any more that exercise but I don't believe that. Metta Joop #66687 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 1, 2007 11:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Photos of Bill Jones sarahprocter... Dear James, Bill & all, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I have uploaded pictures of Bill Jones to the Members folder and > Members Significant Others & Family folder. > > There are two pictures of Bill Jones at Wat Pah Nanachat in Thailand > (Members folder); and a picture of Bill Jones with his wife in southern > Thailand (Members Significant Others & Family folder). ..... S: Very nice pix indeed. There are also a couple of Bill in Colorado which had the wrong captions. Rather than removing them, I've just changed the captions for now as I thought they were a good contrast with the WPN pix - whether it's the Colorado mountains and jeans or temple life and white clothes, just ordinary dhammas to be known:-). (Let me know off-list if I've taken too much poetic licence by not removing anything. I also reckon Bill plans to hang in with us, so it's good to really get to know him in the album:-)) ... > > HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!! .... S: Likewise, a very Happy and Wise New Year, New moment, New life..... Many, many thanks to all those who've been helping us out behind and on the scene. Hope to start joining in some of those discussions if this work-around connection lasts anytime for more than 10 minutes:-). > Ps. If anyone else would like help uploading pictures, please don't > hesitate to contact me (I need all the good karma I can get! ;-)) .... S: Yes, all -- pls give James the good karma/kamma!! Metta, Sarah ======== #66688 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 2:25 am Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] re: Letters on Vipassana IV, 6 sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > Sorry - I don't understand that as answering my question. My > point is > that the redness, blackness, and disk shape are not arbitrary. .... S: I think you've had an interesting discussion with Nina on this topic and I can understand your comments and also Nina's reluctance to give the simple, affirmative reply you'd like. As you suggest, nothing about the visible objects (smells, sounds etc) are arbitrary and if they didn't have their own/unique/particular characteristics to be 'observed' (as you put it, I believe....)and also marked by sanna, then there wouldn't be the further ideas and thoughts and clingings on account of what has been 'experienced'. To give simpler examples which I know you'll agree with -- when tastes are experienced, there are sour tastes, sweet tastes, bitter tastes and so on. When sounds are heard, there are loud, quiet, piercing sounds and so on. When tangible objects are experienced, there are hard, rough objects, soft, smooth objects and so on. In other words, as you suggest, all the various rupas experienced have unique characteristics. The same is so with visible objects. What is seen to the left and right and straight ahead are different visible objects and these are different at each moment of seeing. They are just what appears. Like Nina, I'm also reluctant to just agree that if a red and black object with a disc shape is placed in front of us that this is what will be seen. So much depends on kamma at any time. But, I think your point is correct that the perceived colours and what are later taken for shapes are not arbitrary, but are based on what is seen and what is paid attention to. ..... > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > So? The number of colors is not given with the object. But is it > not > determined by the object? > ---------------------------------------- ..... S: Yes, it depends on the object experienced according to kamma at any given moment. We may be looking in the same direction or apparently hearing the same noise, but it depends on kamma as to exactly what is seen at any given moment. As you say, the ideas of shapes, sizes and colours are based on the visible objects seen and of course the accumulations and other conditioning factors. Thanks also for your other good discussions. I understand why there has been some heat in the meditation/jhana one. I can understand that you felt you were being 'grilled' and that you were kindly sharing what you could from your own experience. However, I also understand Scott's approach of not wishing to leave any stones unturned and his keenly questioning and probing of different understandings of the teachings, including his probing Abhidhamma questions too. I'm sure it was intended kindly and in the spirit of dhamma investigation. We all have our different approaches as James often points out:-) Anyway, for lurkers (like me, recently, lol), it's been good discussion and I'm impressed at how you were all able to sort out the heaty issues in a kindly manner. At the very least, it will have been a good distraction from the arm pain -- a good example perhaps of how brief the experiences of rupas through the body-sense are and how it is the dwelling on them that really causes the problems most the time. I meant to keep this brief as I keep losing the connection and posts. Metta, Sarah ======== #66689 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 2:32 am Subject: Melek! (was: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j)) sarahprocter... Hi Melek, --- melek cilingir wrote: > hi sarah and james, > > :) > > i really dont have time to write now, but i feel i must clear something. > yes i am the one in the center, but i am not a man. i have written a > short description, but it is not seen i guess. the other two are my > nieces (one is 12, the other is 15) my name is the turkish version of an > arabic name which means angel. they suggest me to change my name in > india, because it is so similar to a male indian name there :) .... S: I do apologise for my careless mistake. I had looked at the pic very briefly without a proper light and was thinking of a Pakistani man I knew called Melek. I thought you were a youth with long hair and two beautiful girlfriends:) Thank you for taking the comments in such good humour and for clarifying. When I looked again, it was obvious:). Nice pic with lovely nieces too. I was also glad to follow your discussions on vedana, Goenka and so on. I hope to come back on one or two of them later.... A very happy New Year, Melek. You have a lot to contribute here, so look forward to many discussions with you. Metta, Sarah ========= #66690 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 1:53 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 621- Wholesome Deeds(r) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd Teaching or explaining the Dhamma is another one of the ten “bases of meritorious deeds”. Both the person who explains the Dhamma and the listener can benefit, since both are reminded of the truth of Dhamma and of the need to apply the Dhamma. Teaching Dhamma is not easy, one should consider the capacity of the listener to receive the Dhamma. One can start with subjects which are more easily understandable such as generosity, and later on explain about the development of understanding which eradicates defilements. It is essential to learn about the ways of developing generosity and to apply them, because if one cannot give up things one possesses how could one give up clinging to self and other defilements? The Buddha preached to general Síha a graduated discourse on almsgiving, the precepts and on heaven (Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Chapter 2, § 2). When the Buddha saw that Síha was ready to receive the teaching of the four noble Truths he taught these to him. The teaching of Dhamma should be gradual; in the beginning one does not see the disadvantages of clinging. When one understands the dangers of defilements one wants to learn to develop the way leading to the eradication of defilements. The gift of Dhamma is the highest gift because through learning the Dhamma one can develop the understanding which eradicates defilements and leads to the end of dukkha. Thus the teaching of Dhamma can also be considered as an aspect of generosity, dåna. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66691 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: > J: "It would be good to have access the commentary to this sutta. > Perhaps Bhikkhu Bodhi's forthcoming (and eagerly awaited) translation > will throw some light on this point ;-))." > > Yeah, for sure. Any idea when this is likely? > No idea, I'm afraid. But I hope it's soon! > J: "This sutta came up during the discussions in India in 2005 (in > the hotel in Bodh-Gaya, as I remember), and links to these are on > dsg.org." > > Thanks Jon, I'll look that one up. > I was mistaken here. It's the discussion in Benares (thanks, Sarah). The particular passage is on track 4 of that discussion (file name: 2005-10-12-d-Benares4) starting at about the 14.5 minute mark. Sorry for any inconvenience. Jon #66692 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 3:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 sarahprocter... Hi Scott, Swee Boon & all, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > SB: "Bhikkhu Bodhi has written a thesis on this and I agree with him." > > I've read it once and will again, time permitting. What do you agree > with in particular? It will be interesting to discuss this. I find > that I wish Bh. Bodhi had written the unwritten essay on the > possibility of 'dry-insight' and the nature of the Commentaries he > mentions at the end of the paper. .... Sarah: You're discussing the article/thesis 'Jhana and the Lay Disciple' which was first posted here as I recall. I had a little further discussion with B.Bodhi about it and sent the comments below which were also posted here and which you may find of interest. (they're rather technical and detailed). They relate to his misgivings expressed in the article with regard to 'dry-insight' attainement for some ariyans. (Btw, also see U.P. under 'Jhana x2 - mundane and supramundane' or sth along those lines). B.Bodhi’s further comments (to mine below at his suggestion) were to the effect that he was limiting his conclusions to what he reads in the suttas only, but appreciated I was using a ‘synthetic’ approach incorporating the Abhidhmma and ancient commentaries in interpretation too. Metta, Sarah http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/39500 >As most people will recall, some time ago I posted an article by Bhikkhu Bodhi: “The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pâli Suttas” I’m not aware that it has been published and may still be a draft, but it can be seen here: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebdha267.htm <....> ***** Dear Ven Bodhi, Thankyou for your response. The following is a very brief summary of some of the difficult points raised in your article which I’ve been considering and also discussed briefly in India with K. Sujin as I mentioned. I apologise in advance for the point format which is merely to help me keep it brief and focussed and also for the Pali spelling. The points are not raised in any special order. 1.Just v.briefly, I found it a very useful article and piece of research and posted it on DSG in short instalments as a series for others to read as well. I agree with your main conclusion – that sotapannas do not necessarily possess jhana at all and that the textual sources make this clear. 2.With regard to the open questions you raise about anagamis and arahants in this regard, you wonder if the commentaries may have deviated from the Nikayas when they specifically specify that prior attainment of jhanas is not any pre-requisite . In your final conclusion you raise the Satipatthana Sutta as possibly supporting the commentaries. However, you raise other suttas which might suggest the requirement of prior jhana achievement for these stages of enlightenment. As you know, I have a lot of confidence in the Pali commentaries and was interested to look at any possible conflicts.. 3.Under ‘When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary?’ you refer to AN3:85, referring to adhisiila –sikkhaa, adhicitta-sikkhaa and adhipa~n~naa-sikkha. As you point out, adhisiila is perfected by the sotapanna, adhicitta by the anagami and adhipanna by the arahant. As I understand, these develop with satipatthana, (there is guarding of the 6 doors, firmness of citta and understanding at such moments), so that adhisiila is perfected by the sotapanna who can no longer break the precepts, but of course virati continues developing. Adhicitta is perfected by the anagami with the eradicated of attachment to sensuous objects resulting in this degree of calm when the developed vipassana is more absolute.. It doesn’t mean the 4 jhanas have necessarily been attained and adhicitta-sikkhaa is only developed in the one developing the Path. (cf 7 Visuddhi which of course also refer to the purification of sila, citta etc with wisdom). I believe that adhi in adhi sila indidcates the difference between satipatthana sila and ordinary sila, in other words, ‘higher sila’ etc. AN IV,1: “It is through not understanding, not penetrating noble morality….noble concentration….noble wisdom…noble deliverance that I, as well as you, have had for such a long time to pass this round of rebirths.” 4.It may be that adhicitta is defined by the 4 jhanas in context – it would depend on who is being addressed. As we know, many of the main disciples at the time had indeed attained all jhanas and for them, such calm/concentration would be defined in such a way if the jhanas are used as a basis for enlightenment, I’d think. In otherwords, the 1st,2nd,3rd,4th jhana formulas are only for those who have developed jhana to those degrees. For those who haven’t, 1st jhana equivalent Samadhi is there at lokuttara moments as you’ve explained, because of nibbana being the object, not by having developed jhana. 5.In some contexts we also have to keep in mind the two meanings of jhana – one referring to the object which can ‘burn away’ the defilements (aramma.nuu-panijjhaana)and the other which develops with satipatthana (lakkha.nuupjijhaana). 6.With regard to AN4:169/11 and the asa.nkhaara-parinibbaayii and the sasa.nkhaara=-parinibbaayii,you referred to samadhi bala as defined in terms of jhanas. You also referred to this sutta in a letter to me. Whilst saying it supports the attainment of arahantship by ‘a dry-insight approach’, you also raised the question of the panca sekhabalaani and samaadhi bala which is often defined ‘by the four jhana formula’. Surely, samadhi bala as one of the 5 balas included in the bodhipakkhiya dhammas, developed at moments of satipatthana are different from samadhi bala as a jhana factor, developing with samatha development. There are many ways to talk about the variety oft ariyans of course and again we need to look at contexts when reading about balas. 7.In an earlier section of the article under ‘The Stream-enterer and Jhaana’, you refer to SN 55:40. ‘When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become manifest….’Panna and Samadhi surely condition each other and arise together in the development of satipatthana. Indeed, at stages of vipassana ~nana, they are ‘yoked’ together (yuganaddha) because of the clarity at such times. The object is so clear at such times that the samadhi is apparent.This contrasts with the beginning of satipatthana., otherwise there’s no different level. However, even at vipassana ~nana, it must be khanika samadhi, not appanaa (access) as I believe you suggest. The objects of the samadhi and panna are still characteristics of reality (i.e 4 foundations of mindfulness). ***** There may have been other points, but these are the ones I had a particular interest in and I’ve already overstepped your request for a very brief summary. <...> ========================================== #66693 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 6:57 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Scott, > In other words, I think there is a tendency to think of 'jhaana' as > some sort of 'whole'. > I think that one mistakenly takes this 'state' - that is the > experience of jhaana - in terms of a whole, semi-permanent entity No such idea exists in me. > Again, the mutative event here is not jhaana but the moment of > insight; the moment of consciousness which becomes object of pa~n~na > is a moment of 'jhaana consciousness'. Different perspective here. When in jhanas, the form therein is refined form, the feelings therein is refined feelings, the perceptions therein is refined perceptions, the fabrications therein is refined fabrications, and the consciousness therein is refined consciousness. If one through perfect insight perceives these refined & subtle aggregates as anicca, dukkha and anatta, how much more would one perceive the grosser aggregates of the sensuous realm as anicca, dukkha and anatta. Without direct insight into these refined & subtle aggregates, it is impossible to achieve arahant liberation, in my opinion. > Mundane jhaana, as I think the Buddha demonstrates, is just another > accumulation leading to rebirth. The Buddha often speaks and praises the attainment of jhanas (specifically mundane jhanas according to your definition). Jhanas only lead to rebirth when there is clinging for those refined & subtle aggregates. In one whose fever for those refined & subtle aggregates has subsided and faded away, jhanas for him is only mere pleasurable abidings here & now. > How do the jhaanas contribute to this? I think it is important, as > I note above, to remember that jhaana is a moment of consciousness > which contains certain definitive constituents. Bh. Bodhi seems > clear in setting out his opinion that, for stream entry, the > 'practise of jhaana' as 'meditative' pursuit is unnecessary. I > think one needs to consider the role of jhaana - and here I mean > to refer to the mental factors which are its constituents - in the > arising of magga and phala cittas. The magga citta lasts for only one abhidhammic moment. The phala citta lasts for a maximum of three abhidhammic moments. So, we have a maximum of 4 abhidhammic moments of "supramundane jhana" per set of magga and phala cittas, making a total maximum of 16 abhidhammic moments of "supramundane jhana" for the four sets of magga and phala cittas. Do you really believe that the Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path factor of Right Concentration as consisting of only 16 abhidhammic moments, less than the time it takes for a snap of the fingers? Is there any basis for such a belief? Swee Boon #66694 From: "Joop" Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 7:16 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: >... Hallo James, all James, you mentioned the Samadi Sutta; thanks for that: "But there is nothing `tantric' about what Ajahn Lee is teaching in Method 1 and it does correspond to what the Buddha taught in regards to meditation. From the Samadhi Sutta: "And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision? There is the case where a monk attends to the perception of light and is resolved on the perception of daytime [at any hour of the day]. Day [for him] is the same as night, night is the same as day. By means of an awareness open & unhampered, he develops a brightened mind. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html I did read the Sutta in this translation and that of Bhikkhu Bodhi (no big differences, I think) and have a question. "Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? (1) There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. (2) There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. (3) There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. (4)There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. " (numbering made by me, Joop) My question is: Are here literally described four kinds of samatha- meditation with only a loose relation OR is there described a hierarchy with four degrees of concentration ? Said in another way: is a consequence of this Sutta that for getting # 3 (and that' s what I need in mindfulness-meditation aka insight- meditation aka vipassana) one first had to develop # 1 (with the four jhanas) and then #2 and then can start with # 3 ? I think the former is the case, but I'm not sure; I think that in the concentration needed to 'do' insight-meditation (to do you a favor, I the avoid this time the term 'vipassana') getting jhana is not needed. Do you agree with that ? Metta Joop #66695 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 7:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Jon, Thanks, I found it: J: "I was mistaken here. It's the discussion in Benares (thanks, Sarah). The particular passage is on track 4 of that discussion (file name: 2005-10-12-d-Benares4) starting at about the 14.5 minute mark." Here, there is some confusion since the sutta isn't in front of anyone during the discussion. The gist seems to be related to the commentarial clarification regarding the 500 friends who were apparently inclined to the hunting of animals and getting frustrated when they missed a shot. The point is being made that, given this particular tendency, how could they go on to just develop jhaana from time to time. Kh. Sujin refers to kusala moments, suggesting that these are 'calm'. She also refers to the ability of a Buddha to know the particular accumulations of his listeners. I think she was not of the opinion that these ones were being told to go develop jhaana from time to time. Is that how you hear it as well? Sincerely, Scott. #66696 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year upasaka_howard Hi, Joop (and Sarah) - > So the answer is: meditate all day is - for physical reasons - simply > not possible. > > ====================== I would like to add something: Eating is good too, but not to eat all day. Lots of things are good, but not for doing all the the time. Sarah, is the assumption that something must either be engaged in all the time or not at all? Is Dhamma practice a middle-way practice or one of extremes? Sarah, it seems to me that your question to Joop is a not-so-veiled attack on meditation. But it is not an effective one. Nothing is "good" independent of limits and conditions. Most good things are only good in proper measure and context. Think, for example, about truthful speech: The Buddha didn't say only that speech should be truthful, but also that it should be made only when the occasion is right and only in a useful manner. Specifically, he taught the following about proper speech: "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." He didn't say that since truthful speech is good, why not speak proclaim truth all the time under all conditions. Silence is possible also. Likewise, meditation ws never recommended by the Buddha as a 24/7 activity. With metta, Howard #66697 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 9:21 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, Thanks for your reply. I appreciate the chance to continue to study these matters: SB: "...When in jhanas, the form therein is refined form, the feelings therein is refined feelings, the perceptions therein is refined perceptions, the fabrications therein is refined fabrications, and the consciousness therein is refined consciousness." As Nina wrote in her recent Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 167: "Jhaana cittas are not kaamaavacara cittas...Apart from the planes of citta which are kaamaavacara cittas, ruupaavacara cittas and aruupaavacara cittas there is still another class of citta: the lokuttara citta (translated as 'supramundane cittas') which have nibbaana as their object." I don't think that the question of planes of citta is a problem when we examine the question of whether one requires a developed skill in the meditative absorption called jhaana to 'acquire' the path or its fruits, at any level. To me, the planes of citta is clearly taught and hence are tangential to this discussion as a point of contention. In other words, I think we agree that there are planes of citta. What appears to be contentious is the function (and even the existence) of lokuttara or supramundane citta, and this contention, to me, appears to disquise the deeper contention regarding the validity of the third basket of the ti-pitaka and of the Commentarial tradition. If this is the case, then one will likely have to agree to disagree. SB: "If one through perfect insight perceives these refined & subtle aggregates as anicca, dukkha and anatta, how much more would one perceive the grosser aggregates of the sensuous realm as anicca, dukkha and anatta. Without direct insight into these refined & subtle aggregates, it is impossible to achieve arahant liberation, in my opinion." Okay, here I find the logic a bit dodgy. In particular I don't see the distinction you make, apparently one wherein 'perfect insight' is somehow more perfect when it penetrates the characteristics of ruupaavacara citta or aruupaavacara citta than its apparently less perfect version when kaamaavacara cittas are penetrated. Pa~n~na, as I understand it, 'penetrates' the object - any object. I think the main problem with the above premise is the idea that there is anyone that perceives ('...how much more would one perceive the grosser aggregates...'). Pa~n~na penetrates and can penetrate any object. There are levels of pa~n~na though, I think - maybe this is what you are referring to. My question as to the necessity of 'jhaana meditation' isn't to question the reality of 'jhaana meditation'. SB: "The Buddha often speaks and praises the attainment of jhanas (specifically mundane jhanas according to your definition)." Given, not disputed, and not 'my' definition. SB: "Jhanas only lead to rebirth when there is clinging for those refined & subtle aggregates. In one whose fever for those refined & subtle aggregates has subsided and faded away, jhanas for him is only mere pleasurable abidings here & now." But here your are referring to the Arahat, in which case stating the obvious. I'm questioning whether the ordinary guy of today can hope to attain true jhaana absorption as in the Buddha's day, whether the attainment of jhaana is the only way, and, if not, why the debate. SB: "The magga citta lasts for only one abhidhammic moment. The phala citta lasts for a maximum of three abhidhammic moments. So, we have a maximum of 4 abhidhammic moments of "supramundane jhana" per set of magga and phala cittas, making a total maximum of 16 abhidhammic moments of "supramundane jhana" for the four sets of magga and phala cittas. Do you really believe that the Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path factor of Right Concentration as consisting of only 16 abhidhammic moments, less than the time it takes for a snap of the fingers? Is there any basis for such a belief?" I'm sorry to be nearly out of time here and so will have to study a bit later to review the sequence of moments of consciousness. Stepping back, I'd again wonder whether or not an essential difference here might be the acceptance or non-acceptance of the validity of the Abhidhamma as Dhamma. The logic above, again in my opinion, is off. I do believe that the essential 'unit' is the 'momentary' citta with concomitant mental factors arising and falling away. The path and fruit are only moments that last 'less than the time it takes for a snap of the fingers'. I don't think you are denying that this is the case. Always, as I see it, we are dealing with momentary phenomena, are we not? I think this is what the Buddha taught. I am wondering, at this point, if in fact Right Concentration includes the level of concentration (as a momentary mental factor or cetasika) concomitant to path and fruit moments. I think this is the case. Others with more knowledge will have to wade in. I'll be able to look into it more after I take the kids tobagganing. Thanks for the discussion. Sincerely, Scott. #66698 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 9:46 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, 168 nilovg Dear friends, In the Visuddhimagga (IV, 74) we can read about the process of cittas in which jhåna occurs for the first time. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 78) states that in that case only one single moment of jhånacitta arises, which is then succeeded by the bhavanga-citta (life-continuum). After that there is a process of kåmåvacara cittas, reviewing through the mind-door the jhåna which has just occurred. For that person the ability to attain jhåna is still weak, he has to continue to purify himself of the hindrances in developing the jhåna-factors until these have become stronger. Further on (Vis. IV, 123 and following) we read that absorption can ``last'' only when it is absolutely purified of states which obstruct concentration. One must first completely suppress lust by reviewing the dangers of sense-desires and also suppress the other ``hindrances''. When someone has become more accomplished there can be jhånacittas succeeding one another, even for a long time. We read (Vis. IV, 125): But when he enters upon a jhåna after (first) completely purifying his mind of states that obstruct concentration, then he remains in the attainment even for a whole day, like a bee that has gone into a completely purified hive... Jhånacittas are kusala kamma of a high degree. When jhåna has been attained the hindrances of sensuous desire, ill-will, sloth, torpor, restlessness, regret and doubt are temporarily eliminated. Thus one is truly calm, at least at that moment. As we have seen in the preceding chapter, the person who wants to develop samatha so as to be able to attain jhåna, has to develop the five jhåna-factors which can inhibit the hindrances, namely: applied thinking (vitakka) sustained thinking (vicåra) rapture (píti) happy feeling (sukha) concentration (samådhi) ****** Nina. #66699 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 9:49 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana V, 2. nilovg Dear friends, Lovingkindness is one of the four "Divine Abidings", Brahmavihåras. The other Brahmavihåras are: compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity. These are subjects of samatha or tranquil meditation. Through the development of samatha there can be temporary freedom from akusala. However, samatha cannot be developed without right understanding. Paññå must know the characteristic of true calm which is kusala. When we hear the word samatha we may think that we have to go into seclusion in order to have concentration and that we should recite for example the "mettå sutta". However, the development of mettå is not a matter of trying to concentrate or reciting. Mettå must be developed in daily life when we are with others; then we can come to know its true characteristic. Foremost is right understanding which knows the characteristic of mettå when it appears. We read in the scriptures about people who developed samatha to the degree of jhåna, absorption, but we should know that not everybody is able to attain jhåna. People who had accumulated great skill for jhåna could attain different stages of jhåna, but, as the "Visuddhimagga" (Ch XII,7) states, jhåna is extremely difficult and only very few people can attain it. One has to live in seclusion and many conditions have to be fulfilled in order to attain it. At the moments of jhåna there are no sense impressions and the "hindrances" are temporarily subdued. The "hindrances" are: sensuous desire, ill- will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry, and doubt. However, through samatha defilements cannot be eradicated. Through right understanding developed in vipassanå defilements can be eradicated. We think of ourselves and others as persons, we cling to a concept of "self", but through vipassanå we learn to see what we really are: only citta, cetasika and rúpa which arise and then fall away immediately. When someone goes away or dies, we can think of a name, but also a name is forgotten soon. We read in the "Sutta Nipåta" (on Decay, vs. 807-809): As a man awakened from sleep no longer sees what happened in his dream, similarly one does not see a loved one who is dead. Those people who were seen and heard and called by their names as such and such, only their names remain when they have passed away. When we are reborn there is another life and we are no longer "this person", but also right now there isn't "this person" who exists. ******* Nina. #66700 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 9:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nilovg Dear Scott, Referring to the sutta about Anathapindika's friends, I read the Co. in Thai before and we discussed it. It is very strange. If the layfollowers would go into seclusion they would have no aversion they would otherwise have when killing swines and then having aversion if they would miss shooting them. Nina. Op 31-dec-2006, om 14:04 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: > It would be good to have access the commentary to this sutta. #66701 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 10:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] One-trick poney nilovg Hi Howard (and James), ------------- H: Dhamma practice and one's life are best together - as an integrated whole. ------- N: This is well said. And also this: H:In fact, one of life's ironies seems to be that often major difficulties are handled well, but "the small things" really do us in! ------------ N: I like to learn paying attention to small, seemingly insignificant things. They are not so insignificant when you think of one citta and its the duration. Our life consists of countless short moments, from birth to death. During such a moment, when it is kusala or akusala, there is accumulation. Patience as to a small matter can be accumulated. If it is not in that way, how can it grow? And so it is with understanding: understanding of just this moment of colour (let it be red or black, never mind) or seeing, is the way that it grows. I cook a lot, I feel close to the Theri who had her herbs burnt. . She was anonym, and I like this. Her name is long forgotten. Verse uttered by a certain Sister, a BhikkhunÄ« of Name Unknown. Sleep softly, little Sturdy, take thy rest At ease, wrapt in the robe thyself hast made. Stilled are the passions that would rage within, Withered as potherbs in the oven dried. (1) The Co in short: she had met Buddha's in former lives and thus learnt to develop pa~n~naa and, let us not forget: all the perfections. <.... And all her life doing meritorious acts, she was reborn among the gods, and then again among men when Kassapa was Buddha, under whom she renounced the world. Reborn again in heaven till this Buddha- dispensation, she was finally born in a great nobleman's family at VesÄ?lÄ«. ... hearing the Great PajÄ?patÄ« the Elder preaching the Doctrine, the wish arose in her to leave the world, and she told this to her husband. He would not consent; so she went on performing her duties, reflecting on the sweetness of the doctrine, and living devoted to insight. Then, one day in the kitchen, while the curry was cooking, a mighty flame of fire shot up, and burnt all the food with much crackling. She, watching it, made it a basis for rapt meditation on the utter impermanence of all things. Thereby she was established in the Fruition of the Path of No-Return. Thenceforth she wore no more jewels and ornaments. When her husband asked her the reason, she told him how incapable she felt of living a domestic life. So he brought her, as VisÄ?kha brought DhammadinnÄ?,79 with a large following, to Great PajÄ?patÄ« the Gotamid, and said: 'Let the reverend Sisters give her ordination.' And PajÄ?patÄ« did so, and showed her the Master; and the Master, emphasizing, as was his custom, the visible basis whereby she had attained, spoke the verse above. Now, when she had attained Arahantship, the Sister repeated that verse in her exultation, wherefore this verse became her verse.> ------------------ Howard: But as we progress, as equanimity grows, more and more external "disturbance" will be tolerated, being internally undisturbing. ------- N: I am glad you emphasize equanimity, this is also one of the perfections, and I tend to overlook this. As James mentioned; for some things we are patient (in his case the students), but not for other things (in his case himself). 'Things' are easier for me, but I have trouble with certain people, like someone in our family. Lack of equanimity. Nina. Op 1-jan-2007, om 20:58 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > In fact, one of life's ironies seems to be that often major > difficulties are handled well, but "the small things" really do us in! #66702 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 4:44 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Scott, > What appears to be contentious is the function (and even the > existence) of lokuttara or supramundane citta, and this contention, > to me, appears to disguise the deeper contention regarding the > validity of the third basket of the ti-pitaka and of the > Commentarial tradition. If this is the case, then one will likely > have to agree to disagree. Not very sure what you are talking about. > Okay, here I find the logic a bit dodgy. In particular I don't see > the distinction you make, apparently one wherein 'perfect insight' > is somehow more perfect when it penetrates the characteristics of > ruupaavacara citta or aruupaavacara citta than its apparently less > perfect version when kaamaavacara cittas are penetrated. You misinterpreted me. > Pa~n~na, as I understand it, 'penetrates' the object - any object. > I think the main problem with the above premise is the idea that > there is anyone that perceives ('...how much more would one > perceive the grosser aggregates...'). No such idea exists in me. > Pa~n~na penetrates and can penetrate any object. There are levels > of pa~n~na though, I think - maybe this is what you are referring > to. > My question as to the necessity of 'jhaana meditation' isn't to > question the reality of 'jhaana meditation'. Two of the five higher fetters relate to rupa jhana becoming and arupa jhana becoming. Without direct insight into the refined & subtle aggregates of the jhanas, I do not know how there can be the abandoning of these two fetters. > But here your are referring to the Arahat, in which case stating the > obvious. I'm questioning whether the ordinary guy of today can hope > to attain true jhaana absorption as in the Buddha's day, whether the > attainment of jhaana is the only way, and, if not, why the debate. Those arahants in the Buddha's day were also very ordinary guys before Awakening, just like you and me. Don't fantasize about them. > The logic above, again in my opinion, is off. I do believe that the > essential 'unit' is the 'momentary' citta with concomitant mental > factors arising and falling away. Looking for further clarification here. If Right Concentration is not (mundane) jhanas, then what is it? Swee Boon #66703 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 7:17 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Hi Swee Boon, I'll put forward these two passages below: SB: "Two of the five higher fetters relate to rupa jhana becoming and arupa jhana becoming. Without direct insight into the refined & subtle aggregates of the jhanas, I do not know how there can be the abandoning of these two fetters." Visuddhimagga XXIII,2: "Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning with the fetters. With dreadful thump the thunderbolt Annihilates the rock, The fire whipped by the driving wind Annihilates the wood. The radiant orb of solar flame Annihilates the dark. Developed understanding, too Annihilates inveterate Defilements' netted overgrowth, The source of every woe. This blessing in this very life A man may know." SB: "Looking for further clarification here. If Right Concentration is not (mundane) jhanas, then what is it?" Visuddhimagga XXII,128: "(d) And two developings are reckoned: but developing is also reckoned as twofold, namely as (i) mundane developing, and (ii) as supramundane developing. (i) Herein, the arousing of mundane virtue, concentration, and understanding, and the influencing of the continuity by their means, is mundane developing. And (ii) the arousing of supramundane virtue, concentration and understanding, and the influencing of the continuity by them, is supramundane developing. Of these, it is the supramundane that is intended here. For this fourfold knowledge arouses supramundane virtue, etc., since it is their conascence condition, and it influences the continuity by their means. So it is only supramundane developing that is a function of it. Therefore these are the Functions of full-understanding, and the rest As stated when truths are penetrated to, Each one of which ought to be recognised According to its individual essence." Sincerely, Scott. #66704 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 7:06 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > My question is: Are here literally described four kinds of samatha- > meditation with only a loose relation > OR is there described a hierarchy with four degrees of concentration ? Thank you for the question; but first let me emphasize that I am no expert in these regards. Actually, when it comes to these higher attainments through meditation, I feel like I am as dumb as a lamp post! ;-)). As I read the Samadhi Sutta, it appears to me that these types of concentration are not being taught as sequential*. However, as with most suttas, the Buddha does list the types of concentration from least important to most important (although they are all important!). Jhana is the least important because it alone simply results in a pleasant abiding in the here and now; perception of light is more important than jhana because it gives rise to knowledge and vision; satipatthana is more important than the perception of light and jhana because it gives rise to alertness and mindfulness (which is helpful in every situation); and concentration on the arising and falling of the five aggregates is the most important because it gives rise to complete liberation. You ask an important question: Joop: I think that in the concentration needed to 'do' insight- meditation (to do you a favor,I the avoid this time the term 'vipassana') getting jhana is not needed. Do you agree with that? James: This is, of course, the question of the day! This is what we have been so passionately discussing in this group lately. I will give you my opinion (and it's just my opinion): Too many people look at these types of concentration and think, "Hey, I want to do the most important type of concentration! I don't have the time to dick around with these other types…" and that is a grave mistake. The emphasis should be on CONCENTRATION, not the labels of jhana, perception of light, satipatthana, etc.. If one has the power of concentration to see and know the arising and falling of the five aggregates, then by all means he/she should start with that type of concentration. However, most of us are not in that category. Most of us are lucky if we can concentrate on a TV show from one commercial to the next! ;-)) Concentration which can see the arising and falling of the five aggregates is the most powerful type of concentration. So, the development of jhana is crucial; the development of satipatthana is crucial; the development of the perception of light is extremely beneficial (but not necessarily crucial, I think). There are no short-cuts. Metta, James *"Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.041.than.html #66705 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 2, 2007 8:28 pm Subject: Today is Durutu Poya Day! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Durutu Poya day is the full-moon of January. This holy day celebrates the first visit of the Buddha to Sri Lanka. The Buddha visited the very place, where the present magnificent Mahiyangana Stupa was built to enshrine the Buddha's hair relics and the collar bone. For Details see: http://www.buddhanet.net/sacred-island/mahiyangana.html On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards NibbÄ?na: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town, & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift, and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #66706 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 1:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Nina, Scott, and Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott, > Referring to the sutta about Anathapindika's friends, > I read the Co. in Thai before and we discussed it. It is very > strange. James: You only think this commentary is strange because you have a preconceived notion that these 500 householders must have been ariyans or otherwise the Buddha wouldn't recommend they practice jhana. However, as I have been saying, it is plainly obvious that they were just ordinary householders. They were ordinary householders who had to hunt on occasion for their food- so they were definitely not all sotapanna or higher. When the sutta states that they were ordinary householders, and the commentary states that they were ordinary householders, just when are you going to accept that they were ordinary householders? :-) If the layfollowers would go into seclusion they would have > no aversion they would otherwise have when killing swines and then > having aversion if they would miss shooting them. > Nina. > Op 31-dec-2006, om 14:04 heeft Jonothan Abbott het volgende geschreven: Metta, James #66707 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 1:45 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 622- Wholesome Deeds(s) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd Both the development of calm and the development of insight are ways of mental development, the tenth “base of meritorious deeds”. As regards calm, this can be developed for the purpose of temporarily subduing defilements. The Visuddhimagga (Chapter III-XI) explains how calm can be developed even to the degree of jhåna by means of a meditation subject. It is extremely difficult to develop calm to the stage of jhåna, but some of the meditation subjects which are dealt with in the Visuddhimagga can also be used as recollections in daily life and then they can condition mahå-kusala cittas. The “ten bases of meritorious deeds” are objects of mahå-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, and, therefore, calm to the degree of jhåna is not dealt with in this context by the Atthasåliní. Those who have accumulated conditions for the attainment of jhåna have first to develop, by means of a meditation subject, calm which accompanies mahå-kusala citta. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66708 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 1:55 am Subject: Searches on the DSG home-page sarahprocter... Dear All, I was reminded yesterday (when I wanted to fish out an old message from the archives quickly)that the yahoo search function on the home-page has been greatly improved and works really well now. I think it's now easier to search for old messages there than on dhammastudygroup.org (the back-up of archives) or in a gmail account, assuming it goes back far enough anyway. Also, by searching on the yahoo website one gets the link and # of the post too. Very simple (even with a bad connection!) 1. Click on the homepage http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/ 2. Make sure messages are showing in 'summary' form, with a couple of lines of text beneath each. 3. Key in search items, e.g 'Sarah Bodhi jhana lay' or 'Howard spiral Jon' 4. Almost instantly you should get a number of posts with on the screen with these search items highlighted in the text. **** I'm just mentioning all this because some members (like me) may not have tried it for a long time as it used to be so hopeless. Metta, Sarah ========= #66709 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 jonoabb Hi Scott Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Jon, > > Thanks, I found it: > > J: "I was mistaken here. It's the discussion in Benares (thanks, > Sarah). The particular passage is on track 4 of that discussion (file > name: 2005-10-12-d-Benares4) starting at about the 14.5 minute mark." > > Here, there is some confusion since the sutta isn't in front of anyone > during the discussion. The gist seems to be related to the > commentarial clarification regarding the 500 friends who were > apparently inclined to the hunting of animals and getting frustrated > when they missed a shot. The point is being made that, given this > particular tendency, how could they go on to just develop jhaana from > time to time. > Yes, and also that it is the 500 who are being addressed, not Anathapindika. > Kh. Sujin refers to kusala moments, suggesting that these are 'calm'. > She also refers to the ability of a Buddha to know the particular > accumulations of his listeners. I think she was not of the opinion > that these ones were being told to go develop jhaana from time to > time. Is that how you hear it as well? > I'm not sure about the last of these. My recollection is that the discussion proceeded on the assumption that the words spoken by the Buddha were in effect a recommendation to develop jhana. But I agree that was not specifically confirmed by Aj. Sujin. Let's see if it comes up again during the Bangkok trip ... Jon #66710 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 3:02 am Subject: Re: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Swee Boon), It's not often I read a post which really surprises me, but your one in response to my post on 'killing' to Sanjay did:-). I didn't expect what I wrote to be in the least controversial, but then as I said to a new member recently, just about everything is controversial round here, lol. I liked and agreed with Swee Boon's reply (#66620), thank you Swee Boon. I'm not sure there's much more to add... let's see..... --- upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Sarah - > > Sorry you and Jon & all in your region are having this > disruption. Of > course, life & limb take precedence over convenience, .... S: Now you don't believe in 'life-force' or jivitindriya (also translated as life-faculty or vitality if you prefer), but you consider 'life' takes precedence. What is life then? (Btw, SB, according to the Abhid., there is jivitindriya the cetasika which accompanies all cittas, 'maintaining' them and jivitindriya the rupa, produced by kamma as you say, 'maintaining' the life of the other rupas it arises with.) .... > and I'm happy to > hear > that you (and most folks) are fine. .... S: Thx for your kind good wishes, Howard. I always appreciate your kindness. .... > > S: Yes. A plant is not a living being of any kind. It doesn't have a > > 'life-force'. > ============================ > Sarah, do you really *believe* that life-force stuff? And do you > really think that such a thing is any less likely to be present in the > plant > kingdom than the animal kingdom? (Do not plants take sustenance (from > water, sun, > and trace minerals), depending on conditions to thrive or not, just as > do > animals and humans?) .... S: There is no life faculty, there are not sentient beings or 'satta' in plants. Of course, sentient beings (satta) are conventional terms, but they represent the various dhammas such as jivitindriya which we refer to as such. Plant life is not conditioned by kamma (as Swee Boon said), nor by cittas, for example. Of course both the nama and rupa jivitindriya are as impermanent as any other namas and rupas. But right now, there is jivitindriya arising at each moment with each citta or we wouldn't be communicating at all. At the end of this life, the body remains are rupas without such a 'life-force'. I remember when jivitindriya came up in the Vism installments, it was one of your 'pet peeves'. As Swee Boon mentioned, there are many references to jivitindriya or 'life-force' or jivita in the texts, including suttas as well, (sometimes using different words). I remember quoting one before. Here's another: SN 48:22 'Life Faculty' (Bodhi transl) "Bhikkhus, there are these three faculties. What three? The femininity faculty, the masculinity faculty, the life faculty. These are the three faculties." ... from Bodhi note: "....The life faculty (jivitindriya)is another type of derivative form, responsible for maintaining conascent physical phenomena. It is defined at Dhs#635 and Vibh#123 and commented on at As323 and Vism447 (Ppn 14:59). .... >And, more importantly, *why* do you believe it? .... S: Simply, living beings 'operate' in a way that plants don't, wouldn't you say, Howard? Can't it be proved at this moment that cittas and cetasikas are present? Do you really think this is so for plants? Let me ask you why you ask for ways to help maintain the life of crickets in your house, but not of dying house-plants or Xmas trees? .... >Far > more > obvious matters you (and the Buddha) say should be known directly for > oneself and > not be accepted merely on the basis of tradition or authority? Why do > you accept > such a life-force theory that is without any concrete evidence or > detail? .... S: Even if the exact cetasika 'jivitindriya' does not appear as object of mindfulness (and the rupa is a subtle rupa like 'masculinity' or 'femininity', unlikely to be directly experienced). However, what I read about them matches what is obviously true! It's like apo dhatu (water element) we were discussing before. It is not experienced through the body-sense, but it's obvious that other rupas could not arise without its cohesive quality and what we read about it in conventional or ultimate terms makes good sense. I like to consider and question what I hear and read very carefully in order to understand it even intellectually. So much has been proved correct of the Buddha's teaching, I accept that what he taught is completely right, even if I can't begin to understand much of it even intellectually. This doesn't mean I don't continue to question and consider what I hear further. (Btw, did you have a chance to listen to some of the audio I mentioned? You'll hear that I question a lot from all sides:-)). ... <...> > But if it > said 'jivitindriya' instead of 'nefesh' (soul/lifeforce/biological > mentality), > and it was described in the Tipitaka instead of the Zohar, would it then > become an article of faith? .... S: If there was any sense of 'lastingness' or 'soul' or 'inner being', then it would clearly be wrong. This can be tested and proved. I don't care about the name, but 'jivitindriya' refers to a momentary arising element which doesn't belong to anyone. (I was trying to keep the message as simple as possible and avoiding Pali terms for Sanjay who is new here). .... > > With metta (that's "metta", not "Meru" ;-), ... S: If it's good and kind, let's call it anything we like;-). Now do you believe your plants can show you metta? If not, why not? Do you have metta towards them? If so, maybe we should discuss more about metta too! With Mt Meru Metta! Sarah p.s Again, I thought SB's response was very neat -- I'll look f/w to any responses to his or this one. ====== #66711 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 3:16 am Subject: Re: A fix on [dsg] external rupas - sensational! sarahprocter... --- connie wrote: > Sarah: What else do you have in your Xmas stocking? > > connie: Incredibly, from Sacred Texts, the address for a single file > version of CAFRD's !! .... S: Wow, you always get the best stockings, Connie!! The Sisters are away. Any joy coming for the Brothers? > ...o what fun it is to read! back to the commentary now for sure. .... S: ...o what fun indeed. I can almost hear you jingling away with this one. We have the hard copy falling to pieces, but so great to save on the typing. Norman unfortunately doesn't add any commentary or even notes to his more recent translations....no fun at all:-/ ..... > > and how about that real heavy surf... > > "a recluse or a brahmin with magic power who has his mind well > controlled... may, by intense concentration on the image of the widest > expanse of water, make this earth move and tremble" .... S: Ah, but can he catch that perfect great tube wave that you see in the films? Remember KenH's book....'Tremble the Waves' or sth... Also saw an extract about a gold medal skier who discussed the intense concentration from the moment he got up to the moment he won his gold. After his ski-run, he didn't hear the crowd at all or seem to see anything, so he didn't know his score. But of course, wrong concentration can be very, very captivating and intense too..... .... > best wishes thru-out the new year, ... S: Thx for sharing your stocking around. Anything to add on the various live threads going on? Metta, Sarah ======= #66712 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 4:20 am Subject: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Howard, and Swee Boon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: S: Simply, living beings 'operate' in a way that plants don't, wouldn't > you say, Howard? Can't it be proved at this moment that cittas and > cetasikas are present? Do you really think this is so for plants? Let me > ask you why you ask for ways to help maintain the life of crickets in > your house, but not of dying house-plants or Xmas trees? > .... I don't know if there is a "life force" or not (reminds me of Star Wars ;-)), but if there is a life force then surely plants must have it. Plants are alive and I don't think it is appropriate to put plants into the category of rupa. The Buddha didn't think so either. The Buddha said that plants have life and forbid monks from killing them: "The eleventh Confession offence concerns destroying plant life. It originated because a bhikkhu harmed 'one-facultied life' by cutting down trees. He continued to cut down a tree even when the tree-deva asked him to stop, so she went and complained to the Buddha. This led to lay criticism of such behavior and a rule was set down: "Intentionally damaging or destroying a living plant is [an offence of Confession.]"(Summary Paac. 11; See BMC p.294) Therefore destroying a living plant — for instance, felling a tree, uprooting a flower, burning grass — is a Confession offence; as is picking fruit from a tree, a flower from a bush, etc. It is an offence of wrong-doing (dukka.ta) to damage or destroy fertile seeds or pips, or viable seedlings. (See Kappiya). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ariyesako/layguide.html#veg gie Metta, James #66713 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 5:30 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Scott, > "Herein, it should be understood that one of the benefits of the > mundane development of understanding is the removal of the various > defilements beginning with [mistaken] view of individuality. This > starts with the delimitation of mentality-materiality. Then one of > the benefits of the supramundane development of understanding is the > removal, at the path moment, of the various defilements beginning > with the fetters. I don't understand. What's the difference between mundane & supramundane development of understanding if both are capable of removing the various defilements? I am not exactly a fan of the Visuddhimagga, which is not a work of the Buddha. > Visuddhimagga XXII,128: > > "(d) And two developings are reckoned: but developing is also > reckoned as twofold, namely as (i) mundane developing, and (ii) as > supramundane developing. > > (i) Herein, the arousing of mundane virtue, concentration, and > understanding, and the influencing of the continuity by their means, > is mundane developing. And (ii) the arousing of supramundane > virtue, concentration and understanding, and the influencing of the > continuity by them, is supramundane developing. Of these, it is > the supramundane that is intended here. For this fourfold > knowledge arouses supramundane virtue, etc., since it is their > conascence condition, and it influences the continuity by their > means. So it is only supramundane developing that is a function of > it. Therefore these are the functions of full-understanding, and > the rest as stated when truths are penetrated to, each one of which > ought to be recognised according to its individual essence." Again, what's the difference? To me, its only a difference of five extra letters. :-) Swee Boon #66714 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 5:37 am Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] re: Letters on Vipassana IV, 6 jonoabb Hi Howard (and Scott and Sarah) sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Howard, > ... > > Thanks also for your other good discussions. I understand why there has > been some heat in the meditation/jhana one. I can understand that you felt > you were being 'grilled' and that you were kindly sharing what you could > from your own experience. However, I also understand Scott's approach of > not wishing to leave any stones unturned and his keenly questioning and > probing of different understandings of the teachings, including his > probing Abhidhamma questions too. I'm sure it was intended kindly and in > the spirit of dhamma investigation. We all have our different approaches > as James often points out:-) > I agree with these sentiments. In particular, questions directed to the basis of another member's stated views, or to assumptions implicit in those views, is surely part and parcel of a discussion list such as this, and should not be seen as an attempted 'debunking' or 'grilling' (as long, of course, as done in a proper manner). For example, a member who urges the development of samatha/jhana may fairly expect to be questioned as to the relevance of this to the development of insight, on the basis of the recorded texts. This in fact was the thrust of Scott's questions (as I read them), rather than the technicalities of jhana development. I think we can all benefit from intelligent, informed discussion on this vexed issue. Jon #66715 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: > Hi Scott, > ... > >> I'm tempted to make something of this distinction between 'mundane' >> and 'supramundane' jhaana. I'd appreciate some input on this but is >> it fair to say that supramundane jhaana is concentration which >> accompanies the magga and phala cittas and is therefore equally >> 'intantaneous'? >> > > In my opinion, I don't think the Buddha made such a distinction in > the Nikayas. He taught only one system of jhanas. Such distinction is > convoluted to me, an unnecessary complication. > If one takes the factors of the NEP to be the mental factors that accompany (a) a moment of insight development leading toward the attainment of enlightenment, and (b) an actual path moment when enlightenment is attained, then they all have a mundane and a supramundane form. The most obvious of these is Right View (panna cetasika). As the path is being developed, it is mundane. At the moment of attainment of enlightenment, it is supramundane. The same applies for the other factors, including Right Concentration. Thus, while it may be true that when jhana is mentioned in the suttas it is not specified whether the reference is to mundane or supramundane, one still has to consider the context in order to understand which is being referred to. Jon #66716 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 5:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 sarahprocter... Hi KenH, Scott & Swee Boon, > Scott: > > I'm tempted to make something of this distinction between > 'mundane' > > and 'supramundane' jhaana. I'd appreciate some input on this but is > > it fair to say that supramundane jhaana is concentration which > > accompanies the magga and phala cittas and is therefore equally > > 'intantaneous'? .... S: Yes, equally brief and equally instantaneous. It is jhana by way of being absorption(appanaa) concentration on account of the object, nibbana. .... > > SB: > In my opinion, I don't think the Buddha made such a distinction in > the Nikayas. He taught only one system of jhanas. Such distinction is > convoluted to me, an unnecessary complication. .... Sarah: When they are references to (lokuttara) jhana in the texts, it's different from (lokiya) jhana. .... KH> From previous discussions here I have gained the impression that (1) > all ariyans would be able to practise mundane jhana if they put their > minds to it, .... Sarah: I don't think this is correct. I think it entirely depends on their accumulations for such. .... and (2) only those ariyans who had made jhana their > "vehicle" for insight (from stream-entry onwards) would be able to > exercise the resulting higher powers. .... Sarah: I'm not sure if you're referring to the 'abhinnas' (higher powers) or sth else? I think 5 lokiya abbhinnas depend on the highest jhana abilities and the 6th abhinna refers to arahantship and destruction of all kilesa. Lots more in Vism X1-X111 and also a summary in Nyantiloka dict. You may also be thinking of phala samapatti, nirodha samapatti.....iddhi.. Also, I know there's lots of talk of 'making jhana a basis/vehicle' etc for enlightenment, but sometimes I wonder if it's appropriate because of course, jhanas like all other conditioned dhammas arise just when these conditions are in place and if and only if.....KS picks people (inc. me on one tape) for using such expressions. .... > Therefore, I think those arahants in the sutta who told the monk, "We > do not have supernatural powers because we were freed by wisdom > alone," probably were jhana meditators by that stage. ... Sarah: I've completely lost track of what sutta is being discussed, but regardless, I wouldn't assume they were 'jhana meditators by that stage' unless it said so. Of course, accumulations are so varied that (as we read in AN, Yuganaddha Sutta), some attain jhanas before insight has developed, some after, some together with and some not at all. ..... >It would have > been, after all, a pleasant way of spending their remaining years in > samsara. .... Sarah: ;-) Just as it would be pleasant to always have metta when with people or any other developed kusala....but not by choice or will, ever! Metta, Sarah p.s Scott, I thought you made some good further points on the 'Bodhi thesis' in #66674. Appreciating SB's and your discussion and reflections on this which I hadn't read when I re-posted my old letter. SB, pls continue to help me out with the plant life discussions!! ======== #66717 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 6:24 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > > > > My question is: Are here literally described four kinds of > > samatha-meditation with only a loose relation > > OR is there described a hierarchy with four degrees of > > concentration ? > > > Thank you for the question; but first let me emphasize that I am no > expert in these regards. Actually, when it comes to these higher > attainments through meditation, I feel like I am as dumb as a lamp > post! ;-)). James, you are too modest. > .... > You ask an important question: > Joop: I think that in the concentration needed to 'do' insight- > meditation (to do you a favor,I the avoid this time the term > 'vipassana') getting jhana is not needed. Do you agree with that? > > James: This is, of course, the question of the day! This is what we > have been so passionately discussing in this group lately. I will > give you my opinion (and it's just my opinion): > > Too many people look at these types of concentration and think, "Hey, > I want to do the most important type of concentration! I don't have > the time to dick around with these other types…" and that is a grave > mistake. The emphasis should be on CONCENTRATION, not the labels ... Yes, we should concentrate, I agree. And see what happens. .... > So, the development of jhana is crucial; the development of > satipatthana is crucial; the development of the perception of light > is extremely beneficial (but not necessarily crucial, I think). > There are no short-cuts. I don't understand that 'so' Of course it's better to do but no disaster without (jhana). Metta Joop #66718 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 1:35 am Subject: Re: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 1/3/07 6:06:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard (& Swee Boon), > > It's not often I read a post which really surprises me, but your one in > response to my post on 'killing' to Sanjay did:-). I didn't expect what I > wrote to be in the least controversial, but then as I said to a new member > recently, just about everything is controversial round here, lol. > > I liked and agreed with Swee Boon's reply (#66620), thank you Swee Boon. > I'm not sure there's much more to add... > > let's see..... > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >Hi, Sarah - > > > > Sorry you and Jon &all in your region are having this > >disruption. Of > >course, life &limb take precedence over convenience, > .... > S: Now you don't believe in 'life-force' or jivitindriya (also translated > as life-faculty or vitality if you prefer), but you consider 'life' takes > precedence. What is life then? ----------------------------------------- Howard: The functioning of the body, most especially the nervous system and heart. The body's functioning depends on a host of physiological and biochemical conditions. ---------------------------------------- > > (Btw, SB, according to the Abhid., there is jivitindriya the cetasika > which accompanies all cittas, 'maintaining' them and jivitindriya the > rupa, produced by kamma as you say, 'maintaining' the life of the other > rupas it arises with.) > .... > >and I'm happy to > >hear > >that you (and most folks) are fine. > .... > S: Thx for your kind good wishes, Howard. I always appreciate your > kindness. > .... > > >>S: Yes. A plant is not a living being of any kind. It doesn't have a > >>'life-force'. > >============================ > > Sarah, do you really *believe* that life-force stuff? And do you > >really think that such a thing is any less likely to be present in the > >plant > >kingdom than the animal kingdom? (Do not plants take sustenance (from > >water, sun, > >and trace minerals), depending on conditions to thrive or not, just as > >do > >animals and humans?) > .... > S: There is no life faculty, there are not sentient beings or 'satta' in > plants. Of course, sentient beings (satta) are conventional terms, but > they represent the various dhammas such as jivitindriya which we refer to > as such. Plant life is not conditioned by kamma (as Swee Boon said), nor > by cittas, for example. > > Of course both the nama and rupa jivitindriya are as impermanent as any > other namas and rupas. But right now, there is jivitindriya arising at > each moment with each citta or we wouldn't be communicating at all. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I'm personally happy that modern, Western medical science doesn't depend on "life-force" for it's approach to medical care. I prefer its approach depending on factors that are observable, measurable, and usable. I have seen no evidence for a "life force" in any biological organisms, plant or animal. ---------------------------------------- At the> > end of this life, the body remains are rupas without such a 'life-force'. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Very close to a soul theory, Sarah. You know: "The body dies when the soul leaves it". ------------------------------------------ > > I remember when jivitindriya came up in the Vism installments, it was one > of your 'pet peeves'. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: It remains so. ----------------------------------------- As Swee Boon mentioned, there are many references to> > jivitindriya or 'life-force' or jivita in the texts, including suttas as > well, (sometimes using different words). I remember quoting one before. > Here's another: > > SN 48:22 'Life Faculty' (Bodhi transl) > > "Bhikkhus, there are these three faculties. What three? The femininity > faculty, the masculinity faculty, the life faculty. These are the three > faculties." > ... > from Bodhi note: "....The life faculty (jivitindriya)is another type of > derivative form, responsible for maintaining conascent physical phenomena. > It is defined at Dhs#635 and Vibh#123 and commented on at As323 and > Vism447 (Ppn 14:59). ----------------------------------------- Howard: At best a conventional notion, at worst primitive pseudo-science. ---------------------------------------- > .... > >And, more importantly, *why* do you believe it? > .... > S: Simply, living beings 'operate' in a way that plants don't, wouldn't > you say, Howard? > -------------------------------------- Howard: Of course they operate differently, though not so differently at the ce llular level. The primary difference is at the organ level and organ-system level, as determined by the DNA. The DNA, is observable, BTW, but not the "life force". The notion of life force is a kind of biological soul theory - the Buddhist twist, of course, is to make it constantly arising & ceasing, though one might wonder why the organism doesn't die at the first moment of cessation! (No life force, dead body!) -------------------------------------- Can't it be proved at this moment that cittas and> > cetasikas are present? Do you really think this is so for plants? > ------------------------------------- Howard: No. I don't claim that plants are sentient beings. I don't care about plants except as part of the environment. The whole plant business is an irrelevant issue for me. They are aggregates of plant cells organized and functioning in specific ways. Animal bodies operate differently. So what? When an animal/human body is alive, i.e. biologically functioning, it serves as support for mental operations. Again, so what? What I question is the notion of an unobserved (and unnecessary) "life force" whose presence allegedly accounts for the continued biological functioning of the animal/human organism. As I said before, I have no more reason to believe in "life force" than I do in Mount Sumeru. I don't claim to *know* that these don't exist. Nor do I claim to *know* that water sprites are not inhabiting the water drops in my kitchen sink. I just have no reason to believe in such things. On the other hand, I very much have reason to believe in the 4 noble truths, the tilakkhana, and dependent origination, matters of Dhamma rather than anthropological and cultural artifacts. -------------------------------------- Let me> > ask you why you ask for ways to help maintain the life of crickets in > your house, but not of dying house-plants or Xmas trees? -------------------------------------- Howard: Already answered. (Oh, BTW, I try to save plants as well - but that is an aside, for the reason is different.) -------------------------------------- > (Btw, did you have a chance to listen to some of the audio I mentioned? > You'll hear that I question a lot from all sides:-)). -------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for the reminder. I listened to a little of it, but I need to get back to listening to it. --------------------------------------- With metta, Howard #66719 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 6:41 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Jon, > If one takes the factors of the NEP to be the mental factors that > accompany (a) a moment of insight development leading toward the > attainment of enlightenment, and (b) an actual path moment when > enlightenment is attained, then they all have a mundane and a > supramundane form. For all intents and purposes, the supramundane form is none of our concern. When magga & phala cittas arise, they last for only a maximum of 4 abhidhammic moments. If they do arise, then congratulations! If not, keep going on. So now, let's focus on the mundane. Swee Boon #66720 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 7:10 am Subject: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) nidive Hi James, > Plants are alive and I don't think it is appropriate to put > plants into the category of rupa. The Buddha didn't think so > either. The Buddha said that plants have life and forbid monks > from killing them: I think the Buddha forbids it because destroying plant life has every potential of destroying the home of plant-dwelling beings. And destroying seeds/flowers/etc is equivalent to depriving those plant-dwelling beings of potential new homes. Not only is destroying plant life depriving plant-dwelling beings of their home, it also deprives many forest-dwelling animals of their home, sometimes driving them to near extinction. Swee Boon #66721 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 7:18 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Swee Boon, I'm likely not the guy to go to regarding: WB: "I don't understand. What's the difference between mundane & supramundane development of understanding if both are capable of removing the various defilements?...Again, what's the difference? To me, its only a difference of five extra letters." As I understand it, this is a very important distinction. There are posts in the archives on the supramundane cittas. Again, as I understand it, lokuttara cittas have nibbaana as object (hence are not 'lokiyaa'). Regarding magga and phala cittas I think these are javana cittas which occur in one process of javana. I'm not sure, and stand for correction, but I think that only these cittas condition eradication whereas mundane, say with jhaana, only suppress defilements. I can add the following from Dhammasa"nga.ni: "[1093] Which are the states that are mundane*? Co-intoxicant states, good, bad and indeterminate, relating to the worlds of Sense, of Form, or of the Formless, [to wit] the five khandhas. [1094] Which are the states that are supra-mundane? The Paths that are Unincluded, and the Fruits of the Paths, and unconditioned element." * (trans.): "Lokiyaa=bound down to, forming a part of, the circle (of existence), which for its dissolving and crumbling away (lujjana palujjana) is called loko. To have got beyond the world, to be a non-conforming feature in it - in it but not of it - is to be lokuttaro" Atthasaalinii, p.63: "In the expression 'worldly phenomena' the round of rebirth is called 'the world' (loka), because of its dissolving and crumbling (lujjana etc). States which are joined to the world by being included therein are termed 'worldly'[lokiya, 'mundane']. To have passed beyond the 'worldly' is to be unworldly, lit. 'ulterior'. Things which have passed beyond worldly, being not included therein, are termed 'transcendental' (lit. ultra-world' [lokuttara])." And from ibid., p.289: "...Herein in what sense is it 'transcendental'? Because it crosses the world, it crosses over the world, passing beyond the world it stands overpowering it..." And, commenting on Dhammasa"nga.ni 277, "Thoughts engaged on the Higher Ideal (lokuttara.m citta.m - with relevance to jhaana): "...'He cultivates [bhaaveti*] the Jhaana' means he evolves, produces, develops the ecstatic Jhaana of one momentary flash of consciousness. Because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this Jhaana is called 'going out.' Or, a person goes forth by means of it, hence it is called 'going out.' The person who is endowed with that, comprehending (the Fact of) Ill goes forth, abandoning the cause (of Ill) goes forth, realising the (fact of ) cessation goes forth, evolving the Path goes forth..." *Regarding 'bhaaveti': "Develops means to beget, produce, increase. This is the meaning of bhaavaana here." (ibid, p. 217). Sincerely, Scott. #66722 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 7:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: S: "p.s Scott, I thought you made some good further points on the 'Bodhi thesis' in #66674. Appreciating SB's and your discussion and reflections on this which I hadn't read when I re-posted my old letter..." Thanks for that 'old letter'. I'm still studying it - as you say its 'technical'. Sincerely, Scott. #66723 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 7:38 am Subject: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) nidive Hi Howard & Sarah, > Very close to a soul theory, Sarah. You know: "The body dies when > the soul leaves it". I think it is easier to understand life-force as five-aggregates sustaining kamma. So long as this sustaining kamma has not expired, there continues the appearance of the five-aggregates. Once this sustaining kamma has expired, there is the breakup and dissolution of the five-aggregates. And then if ignorance has not been uprooted, another sustaining kamma takes over and there comes the appearance of another set of five- aggregates. It all boils down to Dependent Origination. Swee Boon #66724 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 8:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I've got to keep looking at this good letter, but the following seems relevant to the current state of the discussion, that is, in relation to the mundane/supramundane distinction which is being considered: S: "7. In an earlier section of the article under 'The Stream-enterer and Jhaana', you refer to SN 55:40. 'When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become manifest'. Pa~n~na and Samadhi surely condition each other and arise together in the development of satipatthana. Indeed, at stages of vipassana ~nana, they are 'yoked' together (yuganaddha) because of the clarity at such times. The object is so clear at such times that the samadhi is apparent.This contrasts with the beginning of satipatthana., otherwise there's no different level. However, even at vipassana ~nana, it must be khanika samadhi, not appanaa (access) as I believe you suggest. The objects of the samadhi and panna are still characteristics of reality (i.e 4 foundations of mindfulness)." Kha.nika, to glean from PTS PED, has such meanings as 'unstable', 'momentary', 'temporary', 'evanescent' and 'changeable'. Can you say more about this? Sincerely, Scott. #66725 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 3:38 am Subject: Re: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Sarah) - In a message dated 1/3/07 10:54:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > > Hi Howard &Sarah, > > >Very close to a soul theory, Sarah. You know: "The body dies when > >the soul leaves it". > > I think it is easier to understand life-force as five-aggregates > sustaining kamma. > > So long as this sustaining kamma has not expired, there continues the > appearance of the five-aggregates. > > Once this sustaining kamma has expired, there is the breakup and > dissolution of the five-aggregates. > > And then if ignorance has not been uprooted, another sustaining kamma > takes over and there comes the appearance of another set of five- > aggregates. > > It all boils down to Dependent Origination. > > Swee Boon > ======================= That is far closer to how I would see the matter of continuation of "life"- namely continued bodily function due to a variety of conditions, including kamma. But that is not exactly what the notion of life force is, to the best of my understanding. I understand rupa-jivitindriya to be considered a paramattha dhamma of its own in Abhidhamma; namely it is supposed to be a type of rupa that exists as part of every kamma-induced rupa group (kalapa), sustaining that grouping. In the suttas, I think the notion of life-force was far more conventional and informal, rather much along the lines of our saying such things as "The life went out of him" or "He was just a lifeless shell", expressions that are not taken literally but just indicate a great weakening in the first case and death in the second i.e., lessening and cessation of bodily function. With metta, Howard #66726 From: s.billard@... Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 9:00 am Subject: Re: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) sbillard2000 Hi all and happy new year BTW (and to Nina : I have not given up the translation of ADL, I was working on setting up a personal pali dictionary in open office and translating chapt 3) Concerning the discussion below I believe monks were not allowed to kill plants to not fuel bad habits and commit bad deeds. Not to protects plants as beings. If this was the case, the Buddha would have put it as a precept for all people, no ? Sébastien > > Plants are alive and I don't think it is appropriate to put > > plants into the category of rupa. The Buddha didn't think so > > either. The Buddha said that plants have life and forbid monks > > from killing them: > > I think the Buddha forbids it because destroying plant life has every > potential of destroying the home of plant-dwelling beings. #66727 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 4:42 pm Subject: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon and Sebastian, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > I think the Buddha forbids it because destroying plant life has every > potential of destroying the home of plant-dwelling beings. I don't know how important this topic is, but I will participate as it is a good break from the endless jhana discussions ;-)). I am not arguing that plants are living beings. As the Buddha taught, living beings subsist on four types of nutriment: food, feelings (vedana), volition, and consciousness. As far as I know, plants do subsist on food, but they don't subsist on feelings, volition, or consciousness. However, these are living beings, and I believe that we are discussing living plants. Does a plant have life? Of course it does! It eats, grows, reproduces, and dies- it is alive. The four great elements: earth, air, fire, and water do not do these things; elements are not alive. As far as I'm concerned, elements are rupa, but plants are not rupa. The first precept is to refrain from the killing of living beings; plants don't fall into this category because they aren't living beings, they are living plants. However, monks must follow this non- killing even further and not kill living plants. Not only that, they must not harm living plants (picking fruit, cutting plants, picking flowers, etc.), and they must not destroy plant seeds (which contain the embryo of plant life). I don't believe that the Buddha instituted all of these extra rules for monks just to save living beings dependent on plants or to foster good habits (at least the texts don't show that), the Buddha instituted this rule because plants are alive and they shouldn't be killed purposefully by one who wants to live the holy life. Metta, James Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (10) #66728 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 4:56 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Joop, Joop: James, you are too modest. James: Well, thank you, but I don't think I am being too modest (or expressing false humility). I really don't know anything about these attainments through concentration other than what I read. And to my way of thinking, that means I don't know very much at all. Joop: I don't understand that 'so' Of course it's better to do but no disaster without (jhana). James: This depends on how you define `disaster'. In reality, all of samsara is a disaster- it is intrinsically suffering. If one wants to escape from samsara, then jhana practice is a necessity. But not everyone is quite ready for that; not everyone is ready to escape samsara. For those Buddhists who just want to live a more wholesome live and slowly follow the path to nibbana, jhana is not a necessity but it can result in a pleasant abiding in the here and now. The pleasure of jhana is much more wholesome than the pleasure of drugs and alcohol, for example. So, either way you look at it, jhana is a good thing. Metta, James #66729 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 3, 2007 6:12 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,125 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga). Ch. XVII 125. There are four kinds of immaterial resultant consciousness ((62)-(65)) with the formation of the imperturbable as condition, according as it is said: 'Owing to that same profitable kamma of the immaterial sphere having been performed, stored up [by the development of that same profitable immaterial jhana, with the abandoning of bodily pleasure and pain ... he enters upon and dwells in the resultant fourth jhana, which,] with the complete surmounting of perceptions of material form ... is accompanied by the base consisting of boundless space' (Dhs.501), 'accompanied by the base consisting of boundless consciousness' (Dhs.502), 'accompanied by the base consisting of nothingness' (Dhs.503), 'accompanied by the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception' (Dhs.504). ****************************** 125. aane~njaabhisa"nkhaarapaccayaa pana cattaari aruupavipaakaaniiti eva.m catubbidha.m vi~n~naa.na.m hoti. yathaaha --``tasseva aruupaavacarassa kusalassa kammassa ka.tattaa upacitattaa vipaaka.m sabbaso ruupasa~n~naana.m samatikkamaa aakaasaana~ncaayatanasa~n~naasahagata.m...pe0... vi~n~naa.na~ncaa...pe0... aaki~nca~n~naa...pe0... nevasa~n~naanaasa~n~naayatanasahagata.m sukhassa ca dukkhassa ca pahaanaa catuttha.m jhaana.m upasampajja viharatii''ti (dha0 sa0 501). #66730 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 1:50 am Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 623- Wholesome Deeds(t) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd In order to develop calm we should know when the citta is akusala citta and when kusala citta. When we have studied the akusala cetasikas and sobhana cetasikas we know in theory what is akusala citta and what is kusala citta, but we may not be able yet to apply our knowledge in daily life. We may not know what type of citta arises at the present moment. There are innumerable moments of clinging after seeing, hearing and the other sensecognitions, but we do not notice them. When clinging is not as coarse as greed or lust it may pass unnoticed. When we make plans what to do next, when we go somewhere, when we want to get something or when we want a rest in the afternoon there are likely to be countless moments of clinging. We have learnt that the development of loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity in daily life can condition moments of calm, but it is difficult to recognize the characteristic of calm. We may erroneously believe that the citta is kusala citta with calm when it is accompanied by indifferent feeling. However, kusala citta as well as akusala citta can be accompanied by indifferent feeling. It is essential to learn more about our different cittas and this is mental development. When we know the characteristic of true calm which arises with kusala citta, calm can be developed. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66731 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 3:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Joop), --- upasaka@... wrote: > ====================== > I would like to add something: Eating is good too, but not to eat > all > day. Lots of things are good, but not for doing all the the time. .... S: Usually no one suggests such activities are 'the practice' or are 'vipassana meditation'. .... >Sarah, > is > the assumption that something must either be engaged in all the time or > not at > all? ... S: The way I see it, as I'm sure you know, is that the development of satipatthana or vipassana has nothing to do with particular activities one is engaged in part or all of the time. It has everything to do with understanding present dhammas appearing. .... >Is Dhamma practice a middle-way practice or one of extremes? .... S: The middle-way as I see it is one of being aware and developing understanding right now. An extreme path is one where one feels that following particular activities at particular times of day is necessary for satipatthana. I believe this is the radical truth which the Buddha taught us, quite different from all his previous teachers. Anatta. ..... >Sarah, > it > seems to me that your question to Joop is a not-so-veiled attack on > meditation. .... S: Again, you surprise me with this comment, Howard. My comments were intended as friendly ones in the same good humour as Joop's suggestion/comment to me initially was. Really, I don't see friendly discussion and questioning of points (such as yours in the jivitindriya/life-force thread, for example) as being 'veiled' or 'not-so-veiled attacks'. I also apologise sincerely if this is how my comments come across to you. Metta, Sarah ======= #66732 From: "matheesha" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year matheesha333 Hi Sarah, Howard, Just popped in to see how you guys were doing. :) I see you are at each other again about meditation! It's so funny. There's no peace here. until next time.. take care all Matheesha #66733 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 4:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year buddhatrue Hi Sarah and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Again, you surprise me with this comment, Howard. My comments were > intended as friendly ones in the same good humour as Joop's > suggestion/comment to me initially was. James: What makes you believe that Joop's comments were intended to you as 'good humor'? I didn't take them way at all. He was making a very (and I mean very) serious suggestion to you, for your benefit. He wasn't making fun of you or your beliefs. It was a very spontaneous comment(as Joop always is) which he probably didn't think much about as being controversial. > > Really, I don't see friendly discussion and questioning of points (such as > yours in the jivitindriya/life-force thread, for example) as being > 'veiled' or 'not-so-veiled attacks'. I also apologise sincerely if this is > how my comments come across to you. James: Well, of course, Sarah, your comments came across as very smart ass- "Oh, so you think I should meditate...well, then, why don't I just meditate all day!!!" HO, HO, HO...Really, Sarah, that was such an immature response. :-( But that's okay. We are all soooo immature! The sooner we can admit that the sooner we can begin to grow up...and wake up!! ;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > Metta, James #66734 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 4:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year buddhatrue Hi Matheesha, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "matheesha" wrote: > > Hi Sarah, Howard, > > Just popped in to see how you guys were doing. :) I see you are at each > other again about meditation! James: Well, of course! Did you think something else would be different?? ;-)) > > It's so funny. There's no peace here. James: Matheesha, this is where you make a very grave and fatal error in your thinking!! Just because friends argue, bicker, and disagree with each other here, that doesn't mean that there isn't peace here! As the Buddha taught, where there is love and metta for each other, there is always peace. One shouldn't judge by the superfical appearances of things... Please come back and join this family of disgruntled dhamma students...we miss you. :-) > > until next time.. > > take care all > > Matheesha > Metta, James #66735 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 5:04 am Subject: HEY ICARO!!!! buddhatrue Hey Icaro! I just noticed the new photo you posted in the members folder! Is that a kilt you are wearing?? Ohhhh…you look just too sexy! ;-)) (just kidding…maybe ;-)). Just where is Ipenama anyway? I think it is somewhere in South America, but I feel too lazy to look it up right now. How did you get away with wearing a kilt in the streets of such a primitive, backward city?? You are one wild man! ;-)) I hope you will post some more of your abstract expressions of love for the Abhidhamma and Nina to this group!! Personally, I miss you around here (though I have not always been so kind to you…sorry). You have a unique perspective not found anywhere else… Metta, James #66736 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perspectives Re: Stressing sila... sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > It seems that the 'there's no one' thing allows for detachment of some > degree or other. I don't think detachment negates other mental > factors such as mettaa. Nor, of course, can one will oneself to be > 'detached'. I suppose its a certain quality of citta which serves as > condition. .... Sarah: Mostly panna, I think. .... > > Say, for example, there is a boy playing road hockey with his dad, > like there actually was earlier. Say the boy gets all upset at a > failure to make a good shot and becomes all pissy, directing his > frustration at the hapless dad frozen in the goal. The dad could > notice that he's now feeling pissy and about to join in and act > equally pissy but some level of understanding could condition thoughts > like, 'Well, its just feelings about colour', or 'No dad' or some > such. .... S: Of course, any weak understanding is better none. A moment of awareness of the 'pissy' state when it appears or of the thinking as just thinking or direct awareness of any other dhamma is of course more useful than just thinking... .... >This could be condition for not acting with pissiness and maybe > acting with kindness instead. .... Sarah: Maybe, maybe not...anatta again:-) .... >I think though, that the 'acting with > kindness' is kamma for the 'dad' and has nothing to do with the 'boy', > or that other 'flux' or 'stream of consciousness' if you know what I > mean. .... Sarah: Sort of.... of course the boy may or may not appreciate the kindness. He may just find something else to get mad about. .... > The concepts 'dad' and 'boy' and 'hockey' for that matter (although > this latter of a much higher order naturally being 'of hockey' and > all) .... Sarah: naturally:-) ... >are no less apparent at least at this level of understanding but > the dad can find a thought like 'No dad' in his head which could alter > the whole nature of citta. .... Sarah: Maybe.....any expectations of such? .... > > Care of the ill, I suppose, would also be constituted similarily. No > 'one' who is ill, but conditions for arising dhammas including > understanding, mettaa and the like. .... Sarah: I think some wrong practice can creep in if we think there 'should' be a particular way of thinking which will condition kusala states....all in future, rather than being aware now. ... > > Oh, well, best I can do with a frozen head... .... Sarah: And I've probably misunderstood some comments as I try to catch up with some mail before leaving Hong Kong soon... Metta, Sarah ======== #66737 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 4:58 am Subject: Re: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) sarahprocter... Hi James, (Howard, Swee Boon & Sebastien), --- buddhatrue wrote: >However, monks must follow this non- > killing even further and not kill living plants. Not only that, they > must not harm living plants (picking fruit, cutting plants, picking > flowers, etc.), and they must not destroy plant seeds (which contain > the embryo of plant life). I don't believe that the Buddha > instituted all of these extra rules for monks just to save living > beings dependent on plants or to foster good habits (at least the > texts don't show that), the Buddha instituted this rule because > plants are alive and they shouldn't be killed purposefully by one who > wants to live the holy life. ..... S: I think the texts reveal quite a lot. From the Patimokkha, suddhapaacittiyaa, The Section about plant beings, 11: "In causing damage to plant beings there is an offence entailing expiation." From SuttaVibhanga (Horner transl), the account leading up to this rule is given: "....at Alavi in the chief shrine at Alavi. Now at that time the monks of Alavi, making repairs, were cutting down trees and having them cut down; and a certain monk of Alavi cut down a tree, and the devata living in that tree said to this monk: "Do not, honoured sir, desiring to make an abode for yourself, cut down my abode." This monk, taking no notice, cut it down, and in doing so, struck the arm of that devata's son. Then it occurred to that devata: "What now if I, just here, should deprive this monk of life?" Then it occurred to that devata: "But this would not be suiting in me, that I were, just here, to deprive this monk of life. What now if I were to tell this matter to the lord?" Then this devata approached the lord, and having approached she told this matter to the lord. "Very good, devata, it is good that you, devata, did not deprive this monk of life. If today you, devata, had deprived this monk of life, you, devata, would also have produced much demerit. You go, devata; in a certain place there is a solitary tree, go you into it." People looked down upon, criticised, spread it about, saying: "How can these recluses, sons of the Sakyans, cut down trees and have them cut down? These recluses, sons of the Sakyans, are harming life that is one-facultied." Monks heard these people who looked down upon, criticised, spread it about. Those who were modest monks looked down upon, criticised, spread it about, saying: "How can these monks of Alavi cut down trees and have them cut down?".... "Is it true, as is said, that you, monks, cut down trees and had them cut down?" "It is true, lord," they said. The enlightened one, the lord, rebuked them, saying: "How can you, foolish men, cut down trees and have them cut down? Is it not, foolish men, for pleasing those who are not (yet) pleased.....And thus, monks, this rule of training should be set forth: For destruction of vegetable growth there is an offence of expiation." ****** Metta, Sarah ======== #66738 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 5:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year sarahprocter... Hi James, (Joop, Math, Howard & all), Just a clarification here: --- buddhatrue wrote: >S:....My comments > were > > intended as friendly ones in the same good humour as Joop's > > suggestion/comment to me initially was. > > James: What makes you believe that Joop's comments were intended to > you as 'good humor'? ... S: I said 'friendly ones in....good humour'. Not 'as 'good humor'. A big difference. In good humour (as I use it) means the opposite of 'in bad humour', i.e in a bad mood. .... >I didn't take them way at all. He was making a > very (and I mean very) serious suggestion to you, for your benefit. > He wasn't making fun of you or your beliefs. .... S: Yes, he was making a suggestion which he believed would be for my benefit and my response, just as seriously, was intended to give him (and anyone else) something to consider a little more, also intended for his/others' benefit. I believe there are very deep and important issues underlying our friendly exchanges 'in good humour'. Btw, thx for encouraging Matheesha to stay and participate. We at least agree on this! If it helps at all, my connection will be cut again soon when I leave for Thailand:-). As for peace - it's the nature of all kusala cittas. May we learn to understand when these arise and don't arise, rather than being concerned about our perceptions of others' ignoble intentions and lack of peace! Metta & peace, Sarah ========= #66739 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 5:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > James: What makes you believe that Joop's comments were intended to > > you as 'good humor'? > ... > S: I said 'friendly ones in....good humour'. Not 'as 'good humor'. A big > difference. In good humour (as I use it) means the opposite of 'in bad > humour', i.e in a bad mood. James: Oh, sorry about that. Very interesting to me to see the differences between British English and American English. > .... > >I didn't take them way at all. He was making a > > very (and I mean very) serious suggestion to you, for your benefit. > > He wasn't making fun of you or your beliefs. > .... > S: Yes, he was making a suggestion which he believed would be for my > benefit and my response, just as seriously, was intended to give him (and > anyone else) something to consider a little more, also intended for > his/others' benefit. I believe there are very deep and important issues > underlying our friendly exchanges 'in good humour'. James: Of course you believed that you were giving some good advice/response in a friendly and humorous way. Unfortunately, you and Jon need to both learn that your sense of humor and playing don't match most people's. Jon has seriously hurt my feelings on more than one occassion with his sense of caustic, British humor...and you, Sarah, are more gentle in your humor but it can come across as passive/agressive at times to those not used to it. Just something to consider. > > Btw, thx for encouraging Matheesha to stay and participate. We at least > agree on this! James: Yeah, I knew we would. If nothing else, you are a sweetheart to the core. If it helps at all, my connection will be cut again soon > when I leave for Thailand:-). James: No, that won't help at all!! When the cat's away, the mice will play!! ;-)) > > As for peace - it's the nature of all kusala cittas. May we learn to > understand when these arise and don't arise, rather than being concerned > about our perceptions of others' ignoble intentions and lack of peace! James: Yes, we should focus more on ourselves than focus on others. I have been that too much in this short spurt of activity...and I am really sorry. I will be quiet now. > > Metta & peace, > > Sarah > ========= > Metta, James #66740 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 6:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Mental-Developers-of-All-Kinds, Studying Bh. Bodhi's translation of the Mahaanidaa Sutta, along with the commentaries and sub-commentaries, I came across the following: Sutta: "Aananda, when a bhikkhu - having understood as they really are the origin, passing away, satisfaction, unsatifactoriness, and escape in regard to these seven stations for consciousness and two bases - is liberated through non-clinging, then he is called a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom." Cy: "He is liberated by not grasping anything through the four kinds of clinging. 'Liberated by wisdom'; having brought about the [future] non-occurence of the mental body and the material body, he is liberated solely by the power of wisdom without realising the eight emancipations. This type is fivefold: the dry-insight meditator and those who attain arahatship after having become established in one or another of the four jhaanas. It is said: 'Who is the individual liberated by wisdom?' Herein, some individual does not dwell suffusing the eight emancipations with the body; but having seen with wisdom, his cankers are destroyed. This individual is called 'one liberated by wisdom'" (Pug., pp. 14,73) Sub. Cy: "'Liberated by wisdom'; he is liberated solely by the power of wisdom he does not achieve the eight emancipations and thus lacks the power of eminent concentration. Or else, 'liberated by wisdom' means liberated while understanding; that is, knowing and penetrating the four truths in the modes of full understanding, etc. without contact with the first jhaana,* he is 'liberated' or distinctively freed by completing the functions (of penetration) by bringing those functions to their climax. "'Dry insight meditator': one whose insight is dry, rough, and unmoistened, lacking the moisture of serenity meditation. "'Does not dwell suffusing the eight emancipations': this indicates the absence of the power of eminent concentration. 'Having seen with wisdom': this indicates possesion of the power of eminent wisdom." * Note 54: "'Without contact with the first jhaana' (pa.thamajjhaanaphassena vinaa). This phrase needs careful qualification. It applies only to the dry-insight meditator, and means that he reaches the supramundane path, by which he penetrates the truths, without having previously attained mundane jhaana. But for all meditators the supramundane path includes jhaana, required to fulful the 'right concentration' factor of the noble eightfold path. In the case of the dry-insight meditator, the concetration factor will occur at the minimal level as the first supramundane jhaana (see Vism. XXI,112). The four functions of penetration are the full understanding of suffering, the abandonment of its origin (craving), the realisation of its cessation (nibbaana), and the development of the path. Each supramundane path performs these functions; the last one, the path of arahatship, completes them. See Vism. XXII,92-97." In his introduction, Bh. Bodhi writes an interesting, although somewhat lengthy, section on the above. He gives his own opinions and take on certain matters of relevance to the thread. Since the book is out of print, I'd be happy to post the section if anyone has interest. Sincerely, Scott. #66741 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 6:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 That would be the "Mahaanidaana Sutta". Sorry. S. #66742 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/4/07 6:36:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > >Sarah, > >it > >seems to me that your question to Joop is a not-so-veiled attack on > >meditation. > .... > S: Again, you surprise me with this comment, Howard. My comments were > intended as friendly ones in the same good humour as Joop's > suggestion/comment to me initially was. --------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't consider your comments unfriendly, Sarah. I should have used a word other than 'attack' - perhaps 'dismissal'. I'm sorry for my appearing unfriendly myself - I apologize for that. ---------------------------------------- > > Really, I don't see friendly discussion and questioning of points (such as > yours in the jivitindriya/life-force thread, for example) as being > 'veiled' or 'not-so-veiled attacks'. I also apologise sincerely if this is > how my comments come across to you. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Again, I'm sorry for using a word with a poor connotation. What you had written to Joop with regard to meditating was the following: > If it's so useful, > > why only half an hour? Why not all day, all night? Wouldn't that be > a faster way to become enlightened? > I took exception to that, for two reasons: One is that every useful activity is useful only in proper measure and context, hence the examples I gave. The other is that your joking comment was, IMO, a mildly sarcastic dismissal of meditation as contrary to the "real" Dhamma, which I do believe is what you think it is, and I think that such a view is hurtful to the Dhamma. Whenever I see such things asserted I'm inclined to rush in to express an opposite view, because I feel it is a teaching that can do harm, especially to newcomers to the Dhamma. I regret that I didn't take more care in the words I used in my response, however. Were I to push an extreme view of meditation-only, as some Zen folks do, and urge that folks stay away from texts and study and contemplation, I think you and others would be quite justified in jumping in with very strong language critical of that anti-Dhamma attitude. You would do so to safeguard the Dhamma as you understand it and to protect neophytes. You would be absolutely right to speak up. Probabaly, though, you would exhibit more care in how you replied than I. The life force business, on the other hand, I consider a minor matter. It was not something involved when I (too hastily) used the expression"not-so-veiled attack". (That referred only to meditating, and, again, I apologize for the expression I used.) As far as I'm concerned, the matter of life force is of no importance to the Dhamma, wherher real or imagined, that issue being one of the many leaves not in the Buddha's hand. With metta, Howard #66743 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 7:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Scott, > It is said: 'Who is the individual liberated by wisdom?' Herein, > some individual does not dwell suffusing the eight emancipations > with the body; but having seen with wisdom, his cankers are > destroyed. This individual is called 'one liberated by wisdom' As I understand it, there are two types of arahants: those 'released both ways', and those 'released through discernment'. When an arahant is said to be 'released both ways', it means that he has attained the Cessation of Perception & Feeling, that is, he is skilled in all Eight Emancipations as in DN 15. When an arahant is said to be 'released through discernment', it means that he has NOT attained the Cessation of Perception & Feeling. This is what distinguishes the two types of arahants. The necessity of jhanas cannot be inferred from this distinction. And also, all arahants are liberated by wisdom, whether or not they attain the Cessation of Perception & Feeling. See also: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html Swee Boon #66744 From: "icarofranca" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 8:58 am Subject: Re: HEY ICARO!!!! icarofranca Hi James! >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > I just noticed the new photo you posted in the members folder! Is >that > a kilt you are wearing?? Ohhhh…you look just too sexy! ;-)) (just > kidding…maybe ;-)). Just where is Ipenama anyway? I think it is > somewhere in South America, but I feel too lazy to look it up >right > now. How did you get away with wearing a kilt in the streets of >such a > primitive, backward city?? You are one wild man! ;-)) >------------------------------------------------------------------ Well, I was at Ipanema Beach, Rio de Janeiro, at the New Year´s Day, watching up with some friends the fireworks show - not so beautiful as Sidney´s, I confess! Rio has MANY backwards places indeed...but Ipanema Beach still remains the best on this city! And I am not so wild or radical just that chap who thinks all humankind is classified in two main branches: Beer drinkers and Hell Angles! >---------------------------------------------------------------- > I hope you will post some more of your abstract expressions of love for > the Abhidhamma and Nina to this group!! Personally, I miss you around > here (though I have not always been so kind to you…sorry). You have a > unique perspective not found anywhere else… >---------------------------------------------------------------- You can apply some Abhidhamma´s remarks walking on a beach at midnight: you gather the sensorium data through your sense doors and think about the beach, the waves, the fireworks, "La Foule", people happy on streets at the New Year´s midnight. Your friend X is here, your friend Y is over there and his children are gripping their mother´s hands eagerly. All this set of perceptions are sammuit- Sacca. But when you take notice of your own breath, gaining a conscious step on keeping your vision clear, you perceive that there´s a MIND beyond all sensorium data - your MIND, your Cetasikas. Peeling more and more your mind´s onion you reach that shore of no-Self at all - only MIND, only CETASIKA and RUPA...and who knows where lies Nibbana ? All these are PARAMMATHA SACCA! Mettaya Ícaro #66745 From: connie Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 9:01 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surge nichiconn dear scott, yes, please, pass the christmas stocking 'round! the book worms and those other families herein are eager for more feasting. gobble, gobble and gobbledy gook... give us a nibble, cookie. throw us a hook. idly wonder what she must have been like in person, the humouress behind "Ajjhatta is one of those not-submerged reefs of original Buddhism calling to us, unheeding: Before anattaa was, I Am!" later, and much thanks, connie "drop kick me jesus thru the goal-posts of life" -- cool hand luke #66746 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 9:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year jwromeijn Hallo Sarah, Howard, James, all One day not participating in DSG and already too much happened. I will not quote and not repeat, but be short (with two loud grandchildren around me) Of course I was serious when I advised Sarah to do formal meditation and of course I knew she will not follow my advise: I hardly have illusions. But a more general serious remark is: I'm convinced that being mindful in daily life is very important, without that there is no path. I mean mindful in the way for example Thich Nath Hanh teaches it. But I'm also convinced that formal meditation (concentration AND mindfulness) had to be done, for two reasons: - It's according the teachings of the Buddha - It's helpful to me, in many aspects, that my experience I say that again, not to make peace between two parties (and the parties exists) but because both aspects (being mindful in daily life AND in meditation) are important. And for the rest, Sarah, my image of you is that you are a rather talkative woman; I hope you enjoy moments of silence too. Metta Joop #66747 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 10:23 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Hi Swee Boon, We are dealing with the term 'pa~n~navimutto'. MN 70, Ki.tagiri Sutta: "What kind of person is one liberated-by-wisdom (pa~n~navimutto)? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, but his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This kind of person is called one liberated-by-wisdom. I do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being negligent." The Buddha is not inconsistent or contradictory in his teachings, obviously. In the Pa~n~naavimutta.m Sutta you cite, one called pa~n~nvimutto can be so-called when, after rising from the seclusion of one of the absorptions, pa~n~na realises leading to the attainment of Nobility. The other two citations describe the sukha-vipassako. Nyanatiloka, also citing the Commentaries (in this case to the Puggala Pa~n~natti), notes that there are two who may be called 'pa~n~navimutto': Either the sukha-vipassako or the "one who has attained to Nobility after rising from one of the absorptions." SB: "When an arahant is said to be 'released through discernment', it means that he has NOT attained the Cessation of Perception & Feeling." Given the preceding I think that not only can one be 'pa~n~navimutto' as sukha-vipassako, but also after arising from Cessation of Perception & Feeling. SB: "The necessity of jhanas cannot be inferred from this distinction." Exactly, the distinction shows that the attainment of the mundane jhaanas is not a necessity, but can be used. All along I'm still wanting to learn as much as possible about whether the pursuit of mundane jhaana is necessary. So far, it seems not. SB: "And also, all arahants are liberated by wisdom, whether or not they attain the Cessation of Perception & Feeling." Yes. See the extract from the Bh. Bodhi translation of the Mahaanidaana Sutta to follow. Sincerely, Scott. #66748 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 10:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Hi Again Swee Boon, I forgot to add the note (I'm using Bh. ~Naa.namoli/Bh. Bodhi 'Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha): Note 703: "Pa~n~naavimutta. MA: This includes those who attain arahantship either as dry-insight meditators (sukkha-vipassaka) or after emerging from one or another of the four jhaanas. The Pug. definition merely substitutes the eight liberations for 'those liberations...transcending forms." Pardon my earlier misspelling of 'sukkha-vipassaka'.) Sincerely, Scott #66749 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life. 169 nilovg Dear friends, Jhåna is developed in stages, with each succeeding stage being more refined than the preceding one. There are five stages of rúpa-jhåna (fine-material jhåna) in all. For the first stage of rúpa-jhåna it is still necessary that all five jhåna-factors arise with the jhånacitta, but at each higher stage, when one has become more advanced, jhåna-factors are successively abandoned. When one attains to the rúpa-jhåna of the second stage, one does not need the jhåna- factor which is vitakka, applied thinking. At this point the jhånacitta can experience the meditation subject without vitakka, which has the characteristic of directing the mind unto an object and the function of ``touching'' the object. The other four jhåna-factors still arise with the jhånacitta of the second stage. At the third stage of rúpa-jhåna vicåra, sustained thinking, is abandoned. At this stage one does not need vitakka nor vicåra any longer in order to become absorbed in the meditation subject. Now there are three factors remaining: píti, rapture, sukha, happy feeling, and samådhi, concentration. At the fourth stage píti is abandoned. There is still sukha, happy feeling, accompanying the jhåna-citta, but píti does not arise. Without píti the jhånacitta is more quiet, more refined. At the fifth stage sukha, happy feeling, too is abandoned and there is indifferent feeling (upekkhå vedanå) accompanying the jhånacitta instead. At this stage one is no longer attached to happy feeling. The jhåna-factor which is samådhi, concentration, remains. Some people can, at the second stage of jhåna, abandon both vitakka, applied thinking, and vicåra, sustained thinking. Consequently, they can, in the third stage, abandon píti, rapture, and in the fourth stage sukha, happy feeling. Thus for them there are only four stages of jhåna instead of five. That is the reason why rúpa-jhånas can be counted as four stages or as five stages (as the fourfold system or the five-fold system). When we read in the suttas about four stages of jhåna, it is the fourfold system which is referred to. There can be up to five stages of rúpa-jhåna in all and thus there are five types of rúpåvacara kusala cittas (rúpa-jhåna kusala cittas). Jhånacitta is kusala kamma of a high degree and thus its result is kusala vipåka of a high degree. Jhånacittas do not produce vipåka in the same lifespan: their result is rebirth in higher planes of existence. The result of rúpåvacara kusala cittas is rebirth in rúpa-brahma planes. Rúpåvacara kusala citta can produce result only if one's ability to attain jhåna does not decline and jhånacittas arise shortly before dying. If rúpåvacara kusala citta is to produce the next rebirth, there are rúpåvacara kusala cittas arising shortly before the cuti-citta, dying-consciousness. The patisandhi-citta of the next life is rúpåvacara vipåkacitta and this arises in the appropriate rúpa-brahma plane. It experiences the same meditation subject as the rúpåvacara kusala cittas arising shortly before the cuti-citta of the preceding life. The five types of rúpåvacara kusala cittas are able produce five types of rúpåvacara vipåkacittas. When one is born with a patisandhi-citta which is rúpåvacara vipåkacitta, all bhavanga-cittas and the cuti-citta of that life are of the same type of citta as the paìisandhi-citta. Rúpåvacara vipåkacitta can only perform the functions of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti. ******* Nina. #66750 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 11:23 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana V, 3 nilovg Dear friends, We should often consider where our body now comes from. We have eyes and ears, but we cannot notice what causes eyesense and earsense. It is kamma performed in the past. The rúpas which form up our body are conditioned by kamma, citta, temperature and food. We are seeing and hearing time and again. Seeing and hearing are cittas produced by kamma. They arise and then fall away immediately. When we think of other people we usually think of names. We should consider the difference between names and paramattha dhammas, absolute realities, nåma and rúpa which can be directly experienced without having to name them. We live mostly in the world of our thoughts, we keep on thinking of stories about people, about their names, about concepts. However, in order to know the truth we should learn to be aware of realities as they appear one at a time through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind-door. Then we shall eventually be able to see realities as they are: impermanent, dukkha and anattå. When we look at a chair it does not seem to fall away. A chair is a concept we can think of, but it is not a reality. Only paramattha dhammas have the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå which can be realized by paññå when it has been developed. Vipassanå should be developed in daily life, it is right understanding of all realities which are in us and around us. The object of vipassanå are paramattha dhammas as they appear one at a time through one of the six doors. The object of samatha is one of the meditation subjects and the aim is to have true calm, temporary freedom from akusala. Mettå, loving kindness, is an object of samatha, but it can and should be developed in daily life. Mettå is directed towards a person, thus, its object is not a paramattha dhamma but a concept. There are many moments that we think of people and instead of thinking with attachment, aversion or conceit, we can learn to think with kindness. Mettå is a reality and thus it can be object of mindfulness, it can be known as a kind of nåma which is not self. We can develop both vipassanå and mettå in daily life. Mettå is one of the "perfections" (paramís) which should be developed together with satipatthåna from life to life. Through the development of mettå we learn to be less selfish and thus also mettå is, together with all the other sobhana cetasikas which are accumulated, a supporting condition for paññå which can eventually eradicate the wrong view of self. Satipatthåna conditions mettå to arise more often. When there is awareness of the different cittas we learn to know their characteristics more clearly, we learn to know when the citta is kusala and when akusala. When mettå arises and there is awareness of it we shall be less inclined to take it for self. ******** Nina. #66751 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 11:31 am Subject: Re: Beliefs/Sarah (Re: [dsg] Killings - violence : the insight behind..) nilovg Dear Sébastien, I am glad. I went through the Dutch one, checking someone else's translation these last weeks, had to finish it before I leave for Thailand, this Saturday. I will be glad to read yours when I am back. Especially translating Visuddhimagga in Dutch is very difficult. It is too time consuming for me to go to the Pali texts and translate from these the sutta quotes. Nina. Op 3-jan-2007, om 18:00 heeft s.billard@... het volgende geschreven: > (and to Nina : I have not given up the translation > of ADL, I was working on setting up a personal pali dictionary in > open office > and translating chapt 3) #66752 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year nilovg Hi Matheesha, I thought of you and then you pop up. You had promised Han and me also a report of the questions in London. But Han is away to Mynmar and I am leaving for Bgk Saturday, so, perhaps after Jan. 20? don't forget us. You said, there never is peace here, but peace is anyway momentary. That is the dukkhaness of it! Best wishes to you for the New Year, Nina. Op 4-jan-2007, om 12:59 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > Just popped in to see how you guys were doing. :) I see you are at > each > other again about meditation! #66753 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: HEY ICARO!!!! nilovg Dear Icaro, I always love to hear this, thank you. Best wishes to you for the New Year, Nina. Op 4-jan-2007, om 17:58 heeft icarofranca het volgende geschreven: > only MIND, only CETASIKA and RUPA...and who knows where lies > Nibbana ? > All these are PARAMMATHA SACCA! #66754 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 11:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nilovg Dear Scott, Thank you for the text quotes, they are very useful. You find similar good quotes in Ven. Henepola Gunaratana, the Jhanas, Wheel 351/353. Ven. Bodhi also helped him with suggestions. I referred to this book some time ago. Nina. Op 4-jan-2007, om 15:31 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Studying Bh. Bodhi's translation of the Mahaanidaa Sutta, along with > the commentaries and sub-commentaries #66755 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 12:38 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surge scottduncan2 Dear connie (first) and All Mental Developers (next), Here is the excerpt. Prepare yourselves - its a bit longish... c: "yes, please, pass the christmas stocking 'round! the book worms and those other families herein are eager for more feasting. gobble, gobble and gobbledy gook... give us a nibble, cookie. throw us a hook." Coming up after... c: "idly wonder what she must have been like in person, the humouress behind 'Ajjhatta is one of those not-submerged reefs of original Buddhism calling to us, unheeding: Before anattaa was, I Am!'" Probably at a loss for words regarding 'that which arises from within'. Who was she? c: "'drop kick me jesus thru the goal-posts of life' -- cool hand luke" Here its 'slap-shoot me jesus thru the five-hole of life' - same difference though. S. ----------------------------- And now: "The Liberated One. "Having shown the arahat in a general way, without distinction, in the final sections of the sutta the Buddha introduces a division of the liberated one into two types: the pa~n~naavimutta arahat, 'the one liberated by wisdom,' and the ubhatobhaagavimutta arahat, 'the one liberated both ways.' Both types achieve arahatship through wisdom, always the direct instrument for cutting off the ignorance that holds the defilements in place. For both the content of that wisdom is the same, the understanding of the Four Noble Truths. For both the eradication of defilements is equally complete and final. What distinguishes them is their facility in serenity (samatha): the extent to which they have gained mastery over the meditative attainments on the side of concentration (samaadhi). "A clear sutta statement of the difference between the two types is found in the Kii.taagiri Sutta (M.70; i477-78). There the ubhatobhaagavimutta is described as a person who dwells 'having suffused with the body' (kaayena phusitvaa) the immaterial emancipations which are peaceful and transcend material form; and having seen with wisdom, his cankers are destroyed. The pa~n~naavimutta does not dwell 'having suffused with the body' the immaterial emancipations; but having seen with wisdom, for him too the cankers are destroyed. The distinguishing mark between them, then, is the 'bodily suffusion' of the immaterial emancipations - the four immaterial attainments and the cessation of perception and feeling. The ubhatobhaagavimutta arahat has this experience, the pa~n~naavimutta lacks it. The commentary regards ubhatoghaagavimutta arahatship as the consummation for the person originally spoken of as 'not describing self,' pa~n~naavimutta arahatship as the consummation for the bhikkhu who does not consider self. The reason for this connection, presumably, is that the former passage may be read as alluding to the immaterial attainments, while the latter contains no indications of any attainments in serenity. "In the sutta itself the pa~n~naavimutta arahat is described in terms of his understanding of the different realms of existence. This indirect presentation gives the Buddha the opportunity to sketch the topography of sa"msaara. Already, by explaining the conditions responsible for rebirth, he has depicted the generative structure of the round. Now, by showing the planes where rebirth can take place, he draws a picture of its cosmological terrain. The planes are divided into seven stations for consciousness and the two bases; elsewhere these are collectively called the nine abodes of beings. The round, the Buddha said earlier, turns only so long as consciousness 'gains a footing' in mentality-materiality. The seven stations for consciousness provide the cosmic expanse of materiality-mentality where consciousness gains that footholding, establishing itself, and comes to growth. "The pa~n~naavimutta arahat attains liberation by understanding each of the nine planes of existence from five angles: by way of its origin, passing away, satisfaction, unsatisfactoriness, and the escape from it. The origin and passing away of the planes of can be interpreted both as the conditioned origination and cessation of existence in those realms and the momentary production and dissolution of their constituent phenomena. The former interpretation, taken as a basis for contemplation, leads to comprehension of dependent arising, the latter to insight first into impermanence and then into the other two characteristics, suffering and non-self. Contemplation of the remaining three aspects brings understanding of the Four Noble Truths: 'satifaction' implies craving, the truth of the origin of suffering, 'unsatisfactoriness' the truth of suffering, 'escape' the truth of cessation together with the path. When a bhikkhu understands the nine planes from these five angles, he abandons clinging and attains arahatship as one liberated by wisdom. Since he has not gained mastery over the meditative attainments (at least not the immaterial ones), it is clear he does not arrive at insight by contemplating these planes clairvoyantly. His knowledge is inductive rather than direct. By direct insight he can see that the phenomena included in his own experience have an origin and a passing away, that they yield satisfaction, are fraught with danger and misery, and that an escape from them exists. By induction he understands that these five aspects extend to all phenomena throughout all the planes. "Nothing is said in the sutta itself about the pa~n~naavimutta arahat's abilities on the side of serenity. The commentary, filling in, explains that this type is fivefold: the 'dry-insight meditator' (sukkhavipassaka) who attains arahatship by the power of insight alone without the support of a fine-material-sphere jhaana, and those who reach arahatship after basing themselves on one or another of the four fine-material-sphere jhaanas. The pa~n~naavimutta arahat is thus certainly not bereft of attainment in serenity; to the contrary, he can carry serenity quite far. However, not being an obtainer of the eight emancipations, unable to dwell 'having suffused these with the body', he lacks the power of eminent concentration. "The ubhatobhaagavimutta arahat, in contrast, is expressly described by way of his mastery over the eight emancipations. The emancipations include the nive successive attainments reached by the power of concentration: the four jhaanas, the four immaterial attainments, and the cessation of perception and feeling. The four jhaanas are not mentioned among the emancipations under their own name, but are included by the first three items in the set. These first three emancipations, besides being each inclusive of the four jhaanas, as a set seem to be an abridgement of the eight 'positions of mastery' (abhibhaavatana; see D.16;ii, 110-11) The cessation of perception and feeling requires not only concentration but also insight; it can be attained only by non-returners and arahats who have already mastered the immaterial attainments. On the basis of the commentarial discussion, it seems that for a meditative attainment to qualify as an emancipation it is not enough merely that it be entered and dwelt in; rather, after being attained, it has to be developed to such a degree of eminence that it 'thoroughly releases' the mind from the states opposed to it. "The commentaries explain the word ubhatobhaagavimutta as meaning both liberated through two portions and liberated from two portions. Through his mastery over the immaterial attainments this type of arahat is liberated from the material body, through his attainments of the path of arahatship he is liberated from the mental body. This twofold liberation of the ubhatobhaagavimutta arahat should not be confused with (as it sometimes is) with the two liberations - 'liberation of mind' (cetovimutti) and 'liberation by wisdom' (pa~n~naavimutti) - mentioned in 36. These two kinds of liberation are used to describe arahatship in general and pertain to all arahats (see M.i,35-36); they even appear in a passage describing a type of arahat expressly defined as one who does not obtain the eight emancipations (A.IV.iii,10; i,61). In the commentaries the former is taken to denote the concentration faculty in the arahat's fruition attainment, the latter to denote wisdom faculty. "As the ubhatobhaagavimutta arahat is described as one who obtains the eight emancipations, the question may be raised how far his accomplishment in this arena must go to merit the title 'liberated both ways'. The Kii.tigiri Sutta cited above makes it plain that the immaterial emancipations are necessary. But need he obtain all these without omission? The exegetical texts answer both in the negative. The commentary says that the 'one liberated in both ways' is fivefold by way of those who attain arahatship after emerging from one or another of the four immaterial attainments and the one who attains it after emerging from cessation. The subcommentary explains that if one obtains even a single immaterial attainment one can be called a gainer of the eight emancipations and thus be liberated in both ways. But nothing less than that will do. The exegetical texts, arguing down an unorthodox opinion that the fourth jhaana is sufficient, emphasise that only the immaterial attainments give the complete experiential liberation from material form needed to qualify for the title..." Apologies for typos. Sincerely, Scott #66756 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 12:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Regarding... N: "Thank you for the text quotes, they are very useful." You're welcome. N: "You find similar good quotes in Ven. Henepola Gunaratana, the Jhanas, Wheel 351/353. Ven. Bodhi also helped him with suggestions. I referred to this book some time ago." I'll check it out. Sincerely, Scott. #66757 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 1:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 ken_aitch Hi Sarah, ------------------- KH: > > From previous discussions here I have gained the impression that (1) > all ariyans would be able to practise mundane jhana if they put their > minds to it, .... Sarah: I don't think this is correct. I think it entirely depends on their accumulations for such. -------------------- You know more about it than I do, so I won't argue. But didn't someone at DSG once make the point, "Anyone who could attain to the level of Anagami would find mundane jhana a pushover?" I thought there was general agreement on that. Apparently not! :-) There is a typo in this next quote; I meant to type 'arahants' not 'ariyans:' --------------------------------- KH: > > and (2) only those ariyans who had made jhana their > "vehicle" for insight (from stream-entry onwards) would be able to > exercise the resulting higher powers. .... Sarah: > I'm not sure if you're referring to the 'abhinnas' (higher powers) or sth else? I think 5 lokiya abbhinnas depend on the highest jhana abilities and the 6th abhinna refers to arahantship and destruction of all kilesa. Lots more in Vism X1-X111 and also a summary in Nyantiloka dict. You may also be thinking of phala samapatti, nirodha samapatti.....iddhi.. ----------------------------------- I seem to recall that the Buddha and his chief disciples attained enlightenment by jhana-and-vipassana in tandem. And I had the impression that this gave them powers greater than the powers of ordinary arahants (flying through the air etc). But maybe I am confusing those powers with those of ordinary (non-Buddhist) jhana masters. How were they different? ------------------------------------------------ S: > Also, I know there's lots of talk of 'making jhana a basis/vehicle' etc for enlightenment, but sometimes I wonder if it's appropriate because of course, jhanas like all other conditioned dhammas arise just when these conditions are in place and if and only if.....KS picks people (inc. me on one tape) for using such expressions. ------------------------------------------------- I see what you mean; it gives the impression of a predetermined technique for enlightenment (formal practice). Such things make sense only in conventional reality. ------------------------------------------------------------ KH: > > Therefore, I think those arahants in the sutta who told the monk, "We > do not have supernatural powers because we were freed by wisdom > alone," probably were jhana meditators by that stage. ... Sarah: > I've completely lost track of what sutta is being discussed, -------------------------------------------------------------- That could be my fault; maybe Scott, Swee Boon and the others on this thread hadn't been discussing that sutta at all! -------------------------------------------- S: > but regardless, I wouldn't assume they were 'jhana meditators by that stage'unless it said so. -------------------------------------------- This goes back to my opening [questionable] assumption - that all arahants would find mundane jhana a piece of cake. ----------------------------- S: > Of course, accumulations are so varied that (as we read in AN, Yuganaddha Sutta), some attain jhanas before insight has developed, some after, some together with and some not at all. ------------------------------ Had I been more motivated to learn these jhana details I would probably have remembered more of them from previous discussions. As it is, I am totally confused. The Buddha mentioned 'vipassana followed by jhana' as one of the four ways. But how would jhana after vipassana affect anything? Don't answer that; I am only sidetracking the thread even more! :-) ------------------------ KH: > >It would have > been, after all, a pleasant way of spending their remaining years in > samsara. .... Sarah: > ;-) Just as it would be pleasant to always have metta when with people or any other developed kusala....but not by choice or will, ever! ------------------------- Point taken! But, of course, jhana is just as much a conditioned dhamma as any other. Wouldn't it be the kind of citta that would naturally (and inevitably) develop in the mind of an arahant? Ken H #66758 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, > > >> If one takes the factors of the NEP to be the mental factors that >> accompany (a) a moment of insight development leading toward the >> attainment of enlightenment, and (b) an actual path moment when >> enlightenment is attained, then they all have a mundane and a >> supramundane form. >> > > For all intents and purposes, the supramundane form is none of our > concern. > > When magga & phala cittas arise, they last for only a maximum of 4 > abhidhammic moments. > > If they do arise, then congratulations! If not, keep going on. > > So now, let's focus on the mundane. > Right. We have no choice but to 'focus on the mundane' in that sense (i.e., that the supramundane do not arise for us). But then we still need to allow for the supramundane when reading the Buddha's words, because he often spoke about it. Enjoying your contributions of late. Thanks for the much good input. Jon #66759 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 4:08 pm Subject: Re: HEY ICARO!!!! buddhatrue Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > You can apply some Abhidhamma´s remarks walking on a beach at > midnight: you gather the sensorium data through your sense doors and > think about the beach, the waves, the fireworks, "La Foule", people > happy on streets at the New Year´s midnight. Your friend X is here, > your friend Y is over there and his children are gripping their > mother´s hands eagerly. All this set of perceptions are sammuit- > Sacca. > But when you take notice of your own breath, gaining a conscious > step on keeping your vision clear, you perceive that there´s a MIND > beyond all sensorium data - your MIND, your Cetasikas. Peeling more > and more your mind´s onion you reach that shore of no-Self at all - > only MIND, only CETASIKA and RUPA...and who knows where lies > Nibbana ? > All these are PARAMMATHA SACCA! Very nicely put...and poetic. I'm glad you took my silly post in good humor. > > Mettaya > > Ícaro > Metta, James #66760 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 4:30 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Scott, > MN 70, Ki.tagiri Sutta: > > "What kind of person is one liberated-by-wisdom (pa~n~navimutto)? > Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those > liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, > but his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This kind of > person is called one liberated-by-wisdom. I do not say of such a > bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? > He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being > negligent." This sutta says that one liberated by wisdom does not attain the formless jhanas. Therefore we cannot conclude that one liberated by wisdom does not attain the form jhanas. > SB: "The necessity of jhanas cannot be inferred from this > distinction." > > Exactly, the distinction shows that the attainment of the mundane > jhaanas is not a necessity, but can be used. All along I'm still > wanting to learn as much as possible about whether the pursuit of > mundane jhaana is necessary. So far, it seems not. Sorry, I meant to say that the necessity or unnecessity of (mundane) jhanas cannot be inferred from such a distinction. Therefore, I do not agree with your conclusion that (mundane) jhanas are unnecessary. It simply cannot be inferred from such a distinction. Swee Boon #66761 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 4:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year ken_aitch Hi Howard, ---------- H: > <. . .> dismissal of meditation as contrary to the "real" Dhamma, which I do believe is whatyou think it is, and I think that such a view is hurtful to the Dhamma. Whenever I see such things asserted I'm inclined to rush in to express an opposite view, because I feel it is a teaching that can do harm, especially to newcomers to the Dhamma. ----------- Years ago, Mike posted a sutta on the subject of "defaming the Buddha." It referred to discourses that needed "further explanation" and said they must not be represented as needing "no further explanation." Anyone who said those discourses needed no further explanation would be defaming the Buddha. As a case in point, it would be wrong to say, "According to this sutta, you are defaming the Buddha!" Before we mention "you" or any sentient being in relation to the Dhamma we must explain that, in this teaching, there are only dhammas (no sentient beings). So if I were to say, "Howard is portraying conventional reality as the ultimate reality taught by the Buddha; therefore, Howard is defaming the Buddha!" I would be missing the point. It would be the same if you were to say, "Ken H is denying the efficacy of formal vipassana meditation; therefore Ken H is defaming the Buddha!" The point is to understand there are only dhammas. Even when there is defamation of the Buddha there are only conditioned dhammas. There are no sentences, no words and no you or me who is doing the defaming. At any time when we are discussing Dhamma should remember we are discussing silly, worthless, fleeting, soulless mental and physical phenomena - nothing to get personal about. ---------------- H: > Were I to push an extreme view of meditation-only, as some Zen folks do, and urge that folks stay away from texts and study and contemplation, I think you and others would be quite justified in jumping in with very strong language critical of that anti-Dhamma attitude. You would do so to safeguard the Dhamma as you understand it and to protect neophytes. ---------------- But absolute truth is not a matter of degree. Just as Zen's conventional version of meditation is not bhavana, so too anyone's conventional version of meditation is not bhavana. No matter how subtle the idea of self may be, it is still not anatta. It is not the teaching of the Buddha. Whenever we say a conventional teaching is "near enough to the real thing" we are defaming the Buddha. Earlier in the discussion, Sarah was saying only the paramattha teaching of "life force" (jivita-cetasika) was the right teaching. You were saying that the conventional teaching was right. Wasn't your argument, "Conventional understanding is good enough - the Buddha's reference to "life force" needs no further explanation?" Are you sure you were correct? Ken H #66762 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 5:09 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Hi Swee Boon, Sorry, my mistake: SB: "This sutta says that one liberated by wisdom does not attain the formless jhanas. Therefore we cannot conclude that one liberated by wisdom does not attain the form jhanas. Sorry, I meant to say that the necessity or unnecessity of (mundane) jhanas cannot be inferred from such a distinction. Therefore, I do not agree with your conclusion that (mundane) jhanas are unnecessary. It simply cannot be inferred from such a distinction." I missed your gist. I fear we remain at loggerheads with regards to 'mundane' and 'supramundane' and perhaps this amounts to an insurmountable concern. I am understanding that the sukkhavipassaka 'musters' the requisite concentration at moments of path and fruition, 'in a flash' and that this, along with the other mental factors which are conascent, suffices. Not wanting to be difficult, but can you suggest where I might read that the sukkhavipassaka has a need to a prior attainment of the form jhaanas? Sincerely, Scott. #66763 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Swee Boon and Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Scott, > Sorry, I meant to say that the necessity or unnecessity of (mundane) > jhanas cannot be inferred from such a distinction. Therefore, I do > not agree with your conclusion that (mundane) jhanas are unnecessary. > It simply cannot be inferred from such a distinction. I also do not agree with this conclusion. This description of the two types of arahants shows that there are those released by wisdom and those released both ways. Those who are released both ways have attained the immaterial jhanas (at least one), and thus they have great supernatural powers. Those who are released by wisdom have not attained the immaterial jhanas and therefore don't have great supernatural powers. However, it is safe to conclude, that both groups of arahants have at least achieved one if not all of the four rupa jhanas. As the Buddha taught, the jhanas are necessary for completion of the Noble Eightfold Path. The jhanas are necessary for enlightenment. Metta, James > #66764 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 5:15 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,126 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 126. After knowing what kind of consciousness has what formations as its condition, one should now understand how it occurs as follows. [(2) The Occurrence of Resultant Consciousness] Now this resultant consciousness all occurs in two ways, namely, (a) in the course of an individual existence (or continuity), and (b) at the rebirth-linking [moment]. Herein, there are the two fivefold consciousnesses ((34)-(38)) and ((50)-(54)), two mind elements ((39) and (55)), and root-causeless mind-consciousness element accompanied by joy (40), that is, thirteen which occur only in the course of an existence in the five-constituent kind of becoming.20 The remaining nineteen occur in the three kinds of becoming, either in the course of an existence or at rebirth-linking, as appropriate. How? ----------------------- Note 20. For five-constituent becoming, etc., see pars. 253-54. 'Unprofitable resultant eye-consciousness, etc., sometimes arise even in Brahmaas when undesirable visible data, etc., come into focus' (Pm.604); cf. par. 180. ********************** 126. eva.m ya.m sa"nkhaarapaccayaa ya.m vi~n~naa.na.m hoti, ta.m ~natvaa idaanissa eva.m pavatti veditabbaa -- sabbameva hi ida.m pavattipa.tisandhivasena dvedhaa pavattati. tattha dve pa~ncavi~n~naa.naani, dve manodhaatuyo, somanassasahagataa ahetukamanovi~n~naa.nadhaatuuti imaani terasa pa~ncavokaarabhave pavattiya~n~neva pavattanti. sesaani ekuunaviisati tiisu bhavesu yathaanuruupa.m pavattiyampi pa.tisandhiyampi pavattanti. katha.m? #66765 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear James, Thank you for: J: "...However, it is safe to conclude, that both groups of arahants have at least achieved one if not all of the four rupa jhanas. As the Buddha taught, the jhanas are necessary for completion of the Noble Eightfold Path. The jhanas are necessary for enlightenment." Can you please direct me to where this is taught (should you know of a reference)? I don't think I'm being obtuse (I hope not) but I'm not seeing how this is so cut-and-dried as is made out, in other words, I remain leery that this is 'safe to conclude'. Sincerely, Scott. #66766 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 3:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 1/4/07 7:36:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: Howard: I'm not fond of "defaming the Buddha" terminology. It's more harsh than I like. ----------------------------------------- > > The point is to understand there are only dhammas. Even when there is > defamation of the Buddha there are only conditioned dhammas. There are > no sentences, no words and no you or me who is doing the defaming. At > any time when we are discussing Dhamma should remember we are > discussing silly, worthless, fleeting, soulless mental and physical > phenomena - nothing to get personal about. --------------------------------------- Howard: Thinking that way can be of some help. --------------------------------------- > > ---------------- > H: > Were I to push an extreme view of meditation-only, as some > Zen folks do, and urge that folks stay away from texts and study and > contemplation, I think you and others would be quite justified in > jumping in with very strong language critical of that anti-Dhamma > attitude. You would do so to safeguard the Dhamma as you understand it > and to protect neophytes. > ---------------- > > But absolute truth is not a matter of degree. Just as Zen's > conventional version of meditation is not bhavana, so too anyone's > conventional version of meditation is not bhavana. No matter how > subtle the idea of self may be, it is still not anatta. It is not the > teaching of the Buddha. Whenever we say a conventional teaching is > "near enough to the real thing" we are defaming the Buddha. --------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree entirely. Meditation as taught by the Buddha is quite conventional.And for me this is as clear as can be. All activities, of course, are sequences of groups of realities. ------------------------------------------ > > Earlier in the discussion, Sarah was saying only the paramattha > teaching of "life force" (jivita-cetasika) was the right teaching. You > were saying that the conventional teaching was right. Wasn't your > argument, "Conventional understanding is good enough - the Buddha's > reference to "life force" needs no further explanation?" Are you sure > you were correct? ---------------------------------------- Howard: I simply have no reason to believe in a lif force, and I do not. Could I be wrong? Sure! ----------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > ====================== With metta, Howard #66767 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 8:26 pm Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Can you please direct me to where this is taught (should you know of a > reference)? I don't think I'm being obtuse (I hope not) but I'm not > seeing how this is so cut-and-dried as is made out, in other words, I > remain leery that this is 'safe to conclude'. You can read the Buddha teach this in his first and most important discourse, "Setting Rolling the Wheel of Truth": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.nymo.html > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James #66768 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 9:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: >.....the following seems > relevant to the current state of the discussion, that is, in relation > to the mundane/supramundane distinction which is being considered: > > Sarah: "7. In an earlier section of the article under 'The > Stream-enterer and Jhaana', you refer to SN 55:40. 'When the mind is > concentrated, phenomena become manifest'. Pa~n~na and Samadhi surely > condition each other and arise together in the development of > satipatthana. Indeed, at stages of vipassana ~nana, they are 'yoked' > together (yuganaddha) because of the clarity at such times. The object > is so clear at such times that the samadhi is apparent.This contrasts > with the beginning of satipatthana., otherwise there's no different > level. > > However, even at vipassana ~nana, it must be khanika samadhi, not > appanaa (access) as I believe you suggest. The objects of the samadhi > and panna are still characteristics of reality (i.e 4 foundations of > mindfulness)." ..... Sarah: There's a rather important typo in what I wrote here (to BB). It should read "upacara (access)", NOT appanaa.... This is what BB wrote, which this comment was based on (which I don't believe is correct, except we agree that no jhana is involved!): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34202 BB: "The expression "manifestation of phenomena" (dhammaana.m paatubhaava) indicates that the disciple is engaged in contemplating the rise and fall of the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and so forth. Thus this passage shows how the disciple proceeds from concentration to insight, but it does not describe this concentration in terms suggesting it occurs at the level of jhaana. Since the sequence switches over from concentration to insight without mentioning jhaana, it seems that the concentration attained will be tantamount to access concentration, not jhaana, yet even this suffices to support the arising of insight." ***** Scott:> Kha.nika, to glean from PTS PED, has such meanings as 'unstable', > 'momentary', 'temporary', 'evanescent' and 'changeable'. Can you say > more about this? ... Sarah: In the development of vipassana, all moments of satipatthana and all vipassana nanas are accompanied by khanika samadhi. Only lokuttara cittas are accompanied by appana samadhi, (because of nibbana being the object as I said). In the developed of samatha to jhana, just prior to the attainment of jhana, samadhi is upacara (access) and then appana (absorption) at moments of jhana on account of the strength of (kusala) concentration, the object and duration (i.e repeated cittas) after jhana has been experienced for the first time. I think you'll find these details supported in CMA and other Abhidhamma texts and commentaries, but as BB said, he's basing his findings on the suttas alone which are open to different interpretations. Good to see your further textual quotes. Also more under 'Dry-insight', 'Susima Sutta', 'Jhanas - mundane and supramundane' and others in U.P. Metta, Sarah p.s that 'shoulder biceps surgery' has certainly metamorphosised:-). ========= #66769 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 9:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vedana sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Bill), I thought the following in response to response to Bill's confusion over sensations was well-said: --- upasaka@... wrote: > Here is my understanding: Namas are operations of knowing (in > some > fashion), or operations that assist knowing. They, of course, can also > *be* > known. But what cannot know or assist knowing, that is, what can *only* > be known, > are rupas. They are such things as hardness, warmth, motion, sights, > sounds, > tastes, and smells. Bodily sensations probably fall for the most part > under one > of the "earth element", "air element", "fire element", and "water > element" > categories or are compounds or complexes viewed conceptually as units. > (Note: The > remainder of this post is an aside, is speculative, and could be skipped > as > regards the core of this topic.) ... S: I thought the rest on nibbana was not bad at all....as you say, anything we say is speculative there - we can only go by the texts. .... > As for nibbana, well, Abhidhamma calls it nama, and gives what I > consider a convoluted and strained reason for doing so. .... S: Yes, Bill - 'nama' as Howard says according to the texts....on account of bending 'namati' the citta (lokuttara cittas) towards it. Of course, very different from all other namas! Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, thank you so much for your further kind response on the 'attack'. It's always difficult to find the right words and I'm glad you didn't read my post as being unfriendly at least:-). ============= #66770 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 10:00 pm Subject: Cetasikas' study corner 624- Wholesome Deeds(u) sarahprocter... Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) =============================================== Wholesome Deeds contd As regards vipassanå, insight, this is the understanding of realities which can eradicate the latent tendencies of defilements so that they cannot arise again. If we develop good qualities without developing right understanding of realities defilements cannot be eradicated. Akusala cittas are bound to arise time and again, even in between the moments we are performing good deeds. The eradication of defilements is the goal of the Buddha’s teachings. For mindfulness of nåma and rúpa there is an opportunity at any time, but when mindfulness has not been accumulated it does not often arise. We may become impatient and have aversion when there is lack of mindfulness, but then we should remember that the moments of awareness and also the moments of forgetfulness arise because of conditions, that they are not self. Moments of ignorance of realities are real, thus, they can also be object of awareness. ***** Wholesome Deeds to be contd Metta, Sarah ====== #66771 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 9:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] merry christmas from phil sarahprocter... Hi Phil (if you're still reading), Happy New Year! I was waiting to see if anyone else picked up on this comment first: - > Phil wrote: >One thing I am feeling these days > about Acharn Sujin is that she encourages a premature reliance on panna > (without encouraging the gradual training that the Buddha teaches is the > necessary condition for that panna) and it would take a rather deep > degree > of panna to *really* appreciate the cold shower. .... S: The way I see it is that the gross akusla which you often refer to can only ever be understood by panna as conditioned and impermanent dhammas and it is only by understanding them as such that any real difference can be made. Otherwise, we just go on with 'Self' wanting to get rid of these gross akusala as usual, not really appreciating their danger, just wishing 'Self' to be better and nicer all the time. It is, after all, the very strong attachment to 'Self' and particularly the wrong view of Self which conditions the strong reactions of various kinds in the pursuit of pleasing Self. I'll look forward to your further reflections in whichever year it may be! Metta, Sarah ======== #66772 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 10:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > Howard, while you are still somewhat 'incapacitated', I think you > would > > find it particularly interesting to listen to the first track at least > of > > the Bangkok, Feb 2006 set. I'd be very glad to hear you comments if > you > > feel like giving it half an hour or so. > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Thanks I'll give a listen! :-) > ------------------------------------- .... S: I forgot to mention that it's in the very last section of all on the last day that Betty reads out from one of your letters and this is discussed. Some of the best (and most controversial, for those who like it 'hot') seesions is the set in the afternoon of 15th Feb, I think. James, KenH, Joop and others might like this part too:-). Let us know if anyone listens and has any comments. Metta, Sarah ======== #66773 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 10:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: If not pakatupanissaya, then what else? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Jon & Larry, Belatedly if it's any use: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > BTW, a translation that I saw of the Upanisa Sutta the following > > summary by the translator: > > __________ > > The twelve stages of transcendent dependent origination consist of: > > > >> (1) suffering which gives rise to > >> (2) faith which gives rise to > >> (3) gladness (or joy) which gives rise to > >> (4) rapture which gives rise to > >> (5) tranquility which gives rise to > >> (6) happiness which gives rise to > >> (7) concentration which gives rise to > >> (8) the knowledge and vision of things as they really are which <...> > > ------------------------ >H: The proximate cause given there for concentration is happiness. Would > > the Pali be 'sukha' rather than 'piti', <...> >J: It seems to be 'sukha': > > Faith (saddha) > Joy (pamojja) > Rapture (piti) > Tranquillity (passaddhi) > Happiness (sukha) > Concentration (samadhi) <....> .... S: Also see Vism. here as quoted by Nina before: "The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 139) states concerning samådhi: It puts (ådhiyati) consciousness evenly (samaó) on the object, or it puts it rightly (sammå) on it, or it is just the mere collecting (samådhåna) of the mind, thus it is concentration (samådhi). Its characteristic is non-wandering, or its characteristic is non- distraction. Its function is to conglomerate conascent states as water does bath powder. It is manifested as peace. Usually its proximate cause is bliss. It should be regarded as steadiness of the mind, like the steadiness of a lamp's flame when there is no draught." .... S: Here 'bliss' is a translation of sukha too. Metta, Sarah ====== #66774 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 10:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vedana lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Howard, and Bill, I've been thinking about vedana lately and I think the easiest way to distinguish vedana from body sensations is to look for pain. Of course there is also pleasant feeling and neutral feeling but these are harder to pin down. Interestingly, I think all pain can be located in the body, even mental pain. Mental pain has a mental object but it is still located in the body. When found, the difference between feeling and body is quite subtle. A more obvious insight might be that pain is not anger or hatred or fear and anger, hatred, or fear is not a feeling. When we can make that distinction anger etc. is reduced to nothing. I don't know what it means to say "nama experiences an object". If we say nama reacts to an object, so does rupa, at least conventionally. A foot-print in the mud is mud reacting to foot. I think we need a better understanding of "object of consciousness". Larry #66775 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 10:41 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cetasikas' study corner 613- Wholesome Deeds(j) sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Sukin), You responded to some of the comments of Sukin's which I had suggested were helpful. You weren't so sure (!), but I'll leave it to Sukin to follow up on them. (#66519). I'll just pick up on this one: > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Will I have "but little dust in my eyes" if only I adhere to the > listen-and-consider, one-trick-pony school of Dhamma practice? ... S: I don't think anyone suggests (I certainly don't) that 'listen-and-consdier' will necessarily lead to right practice. As I wrote about in a recent post to you (and many, many earlier ones too), I consider there are different kinds of listening. Here it's listening with panna which may lead to right practice, patipatti, depending on many conditions. .... >This > listen-and-consider business, while clearly essential, is NOT the whole of Dhamma practice, .... S: No suggestion of it being so... .... > but only the first step, being the means for understanding what the practice > is, and getting a glimpse of what that practice may lead to. The Buddha's body > of teaching is the map. The practice requires hitting the road. .... S: Yes, exactly. This is what I was referring to in a post to Scott. Just thinking (however rightly) will never lead to liberation. There has to be the direct awareness and understanding of the dhammas we've heard so much about, right now! This is the 'hitting the road'. .... > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: <...> No, there > is no one "technique" that is a panacea. And listening and considering is no > panacea. Dhamma practice is complex and significant, and, yes, subtle. ... S: Agreed! Metta, Sarah ========= #66776 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu Jan 4, 2007 10:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] merry christmas from phil gazita2002 Hello Phil, and Sarah. I notice, Phil, that Sarah has added 'if youre still reading' so I dont know if u are still writing into dsg, as I have been away from the computor for some time. I'll ask anyway; when you say 'without the gradual training that the Buddha teaches is hte necessary condition for that panna' I wonder what u mean by gradual training? I remember RobK commenting once that if we shoot an arrow and the aim is off by 1cm then by the time it reaches the target 100mt away, it will be very far off indeed. He went on to say that this path of Dhamma is very much further than 100mt, and if 'we' are slightly off at the beginning then we can go a very long way off target and find it hard to come back and resight - so to speak. This impressed me bec. i believe it is only panna that can eradicate defilements, panna being the very opposite of ignorance, avijja. so IMO, why put off until later the development of wisdom. I belive with the slow growth of wisdom other aspects of Buddhas teaching eg sila, dana seem to automatically grow slowly also. I would like to rephrase your comment thus: " panna is the necessay condition for that gradual training that the Buddha teaches" Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. #66777 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 1:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year sarahprocter... Dear Joop (& all concerned about my lack of silence!), Thank you for your kind concern and advice as usual: --- Joop wrote: >I hope you enjoy moments of silence too. ..... S: Yes, actually, like many, many people, I have rather a lot of attachment to silence and quiet and being on my own. I believe it's very seldom a kusala (wholesome)inclination/preference, however. So did the Buddha recommend silent retreats and silent gatherings of dhamma students? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6427 Jim Anderson wrote: >"The Buddha made a vinaya rule against the practice of silence (muugabbata) as follows: "Monks, an observance of members of other sects, the practice of silence, should not be observed. Whoever observes it, there is an offence of wrong-doing." -- The Book of the Discipline, Part 4, p. 211 trs. I.B. Horner. It also comes with a story of several pages long leading up to the Buddha making this rule. It involved several monks deciding to observe silence together during a rains-retreat (it's at the beginning of the Pavaara.naakkhandhaka, Mahaavagga)."< ***** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/6572 >Here's a condensed version of quotes from pp. 208-11, The Book of the Discipline, Part IV. (trs. I.B. Horner): [While the Lord was staying near Savatthi,] "several monks, friends, and associates, entered on the rains in a certain residence in the Kosala country. Then it occurred to these monks: 'Now by what means can we, all together, on friendly terms and harmonious, spend a comfortable rainy season and not go short of almsfood?' " "Then it occurred to these monks: 'If we should neither address one another nor converse, but whosover should return first from the village . . . [a long passage on how the duties are to be performed] . . . by signalling with his hands, having invited a companion (to help him) by a movement of his hand; but he should not for such a reason break into speech . . . Then the monks neither addressed one another nor conversed . . . [same passage repeated verbatim with tense changes to show that all this had taken place for the duration of the retreat] . . . did not break into speech." [At the end of the three months rains retreat these monks then went to see the Lord near Savatthi.] "Then the Lord spoke thus to these monks, I hope that you kept going, I hope that, all together, on friendly terms and harmonious, you spent a comfortable rainy season and did not go short of almsfood?' [The monks replied that things had gone well for them.] "Now, Truthfinders (sometimes) ask knowing, and knowing (sometimes) do not ask . . . In two ways, Lords question monks, either: . . . or 'Shall we lay down a training rule for disciples?' Then the Lord spoke thus to these monks: 'But in what way, monks, did you, all together, on friendly terms . . . not go short of almsfood?' 'In that connection, did we, Lord, several friends and associates enter on the rains . . . [all what took place is repeated from the beginning] . . . but not for such a reason did he break into speech. Thus did we, Lord, . . . not go short of almsfood.' "Then the Lord addressed the monks, saying: 'Indeed, monks, these foolish men having spent an uncomfortable time pretend to have spent an equally comfortable time. Indeed, monks, these foolish men having spent communion like beasts, pretend to have spent an equally comfortable time. Indeed . . . like sheep, pretend to have spent an equally comfortable time . . . How, monks, can these these foolish men observe an observance of members of (other) sects: the practice of silence?' " [Here's an interesting footnote on the practice of silence, p. 211: "custom of being dumb (muuga), according to VA. 1073, for three months. Cf. the monks who sat like dumb swine, (muugasuukaraaa), when they might have been speaking dhamma, above p.131."]"< ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #66778 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 1:52 am Subject: Re: A hurrah for concepts (Was:Re: [dsg] elements of experience sarahprocter... Dear Joop & all, Thx for being patient on this thread. Just to reassure you here, I have nothing at all against concepts. The only point I was stressing (if I recall), was that merely thinking about concepts will never bring any kind of liberation. --- Joop wrote: > Thanks again. There are only some subtle different views, I think. > > I gave the message another title because of your remark " S: And in > an ultimate sense, theories are just ideas, concepts, non-realities > and don't lead out of samsara." > Even in accepting the difference between conventional and > ultimate 'realities' and even in accepting that "seeing things as > they really are" (that is: as dhammas arising and falling away) WE > NEED CONCEPTS. .... S: Yes. We couldn't communicate now without them. ... > Not only in daily life we need them (how I can ever find the bakery > without them?) but also in spiritual life we need them. The Buddha > used many many concepts (ideas) to explain Dhamma. .... S: Yes. .... > Pure ultimate realities are only lists, like the Dhammasangani. .... S: Even here, it is using concepts to list the ultimate realities. Concepts about paramattha dhammas. ..... > So I don't agree totally when you say theories don't lead out of > samsara. When we cling on a theory then it don't, but they are means > and wordlings can not start the leading out of samsara without > theories. .... S: Yes. As we've been stressing, if there isn't any listening and considering (in concepts), no direct panna to lead out. .... > (I said to Bill yesterday I'm not an expert on the topic of Nibbana > but a Buddha or a Arahat after their passing away - so 'in' Nibbana - > even don't 'have' ultimate realities.) .... S: After parinibbana, I wouldn't say "'in' Nibbana". (Actually, I wouldn't use that particular phrase anytime, but that's btw.) .... > Like an englishman once said "East is east and West and west and > never the twain shall meet", there are now people who say: > "Ultimate realities are Ultimate realities and Concepts are Concepts > and never the twain shall meet" ..... S: Ultimate realities can never be concepts and vice versa. However, there are concepts of concepts and concepts of ultimate realities. And at the time of thinking of such concepts there are also ultimate realities:-). .... > I however think there is a link between those two in our thinking. > There even are in-between-phenomena, like the famous "accumulations". > And some say the rupa kabalikarahara (edible food) is itself a > concept. > (I know this remarks of me are a little provocation) .... S: Ooh....Perhaps others can begin to appreciate that we have fun with our 'little provocations' together:-). Keeps us in 'good humour'! .... > One remark was a puzzle to me: > S: A small refinement - I wrote 'the dhamma which is only ever > experienced' rather than 'experienced', because there are many, many, > many rupas arising and falling away all the time which are not > experienced. > 'Only ever experienced' means that unlike nama, rupas can never > experience an object. > > J: Of course rupas can never experience an onject, that's in fact off- > topic. > But a "rupa arising and falling away which is not experienced" is - > in my system - a not-existing-rupa. .... S: Well, you agree with Howard on this! .... > Because - for me - the rupa IS the experience of arising and falling > away. There are not two entities: the rupa AND the arising and > falling away, but one. > (Possibly this is not the formal Abhidhamma-view: no problem.) .... S: I wouldn't say 'the rupa IS the experience of arising and falling away', but 'each rupa arises and falls away' (regardless of whether it's ever experienced). If you'd like to pursue this one, I hope others can help pick up the thread and run with it while I'm away. It's a discussion topic in itself. .... > S: How about THIS moment? You appreciate discussions on anicca. What > is anicca at THIS very moment? > J: The first time I was reading this part of your message, I was > listening to Emma Kirby singing 'Exultate jubilate' of Mozart. > Accepting anicca was accepting that this only takes some minutes; .... S: That's a conventional idea of reality at this moment and anicca. Again, pls continue to discuss, but I'll leave it to others to help me out for now. .... > of > course I can push on the 'repeat' button (more difficult to do in > daily life) but still this listening itself is an exercise in anicca: > not being attached to the joy of some minutes ago. .... S: I think this is thinking about anicca. .... > I hope Jon and you (and all other DSG participants) have good days > next week and a good 2007 .... S: Likewise, Joop. I've thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated our recent discussions with all their little friendly provocations. Metta, Sarah ======= #66779 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 12:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] vedana sarahprocter... Hi Melek & all, --- melek cilingir wrote: > these are the passages i found clarifying that vedana indicates > sensations on the body. One of my favourite suttas. ... S: Excellent passages to look at. For now, I'm just keeping the most relevant line to your comment (in Pali and just a little more in English): <...> > Tathevimasmim kayasmim, samuppajjanti vedana; > sukhadukkhasamuppatti, adukkhamasukha ca ya. ... > (samyutta nikaya 2.4.260) > > Through the sky blow many different winds,from east and west, from north > and south,dust-laden and dustless, cold as well as hot,fierce gales and > gentle breezes-many winds blow. In the same way, in this body, > sensations arise, pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral. <...> .... S: BB gives a similar translation for the last line(SN 36:12, 'The Sky'): "So in this very body here Various kinds of feelings arise, Pleasant ones and painful ones, And those neither painful nor pleasant." *** S: In this body is a translation of kaayasmin. Kaaya means literally 'heap' or 'accumulation', often translated as 'group' or 'body'. As the Nyantiloka dictionary (under kaaya) indicates, it "may either refer to the physical body (ruupa-kaaya) or to the mental body (naama-kaaya). In the latter case it is either a collective name for for the mental groups (feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness; s.khandha), or merely for feeling, perception and a few of the mental formations (s. naama). In this context, kaaya is referring to naama-kaaya, the 'mental body', to all feelings which may arise. If it were only referring to bodily feelings (also mental, also naama), then the neutral feelings would not be included. Does this make sense to you? ***** S: Now for your second good quote from the Patthana: > Pakatupanissayo-kayikam sukham kayikassa sukhassa, kayikassa dukkhassa, > phalasamapattiya upanissayapaccayena paccayo. Kayikam dukkham kayikassa > sukhassa, kayikassa dukkhassa, phalasamapattiya upanissayapaccayena > paccayo. > (patthana 1.1.423) > > Pleasant bodily sensation is the cause for the arising of pleasant > sensation of the body, unpleasant sensation of the body, and attainment > of fruition (nibbana) in relation to the strong dependent condition. > Unpleasant bodily sensation is the cause for the arising of pleasant > sensation of the body, unpleasant sensation of the body, and attainment > of fruition (nibbana) in relation to the strong dependent condition. .... S: The PTS translation is similar here too: " Bodily happiness is related to bodily happiness, bodily pain, attainment of Fruition by strong-dependence condition. Bodily pain is related to bodily happiness, bodily pain, attainment of Fruition by strong-dependence condition." .... S: Here it is referring to natural strong dependence condition (pakutupanissaya paccaya), a very broad condition and specifically to bodily pleasant and unpleasant feelings (sukha and dukkha vedana) only. These are the (mental)vedana arising with the citta which experiences rupas through the body-sense. As I just mentioned they can only be pleasant or unpleasant. On account of the pleasant or unpleasant feelings which arise, further pleasant and unpleasant feelings may be accumulated by this condition. (I'll leave aside the reference to phala (fruition) now as I need to study the text and it'll take us off-topic). .... > > Pakatupanissayo-kayikam sukham upanissaya... vipassanam uppadeti, maggam > uppadeti, abhinnam uppadeti, samapattim uppadeti. > (patthana 1.1.423) > > Dependent on pleasant bodily sensations... Vipassana arises... Path > arises... Knowledge arises... attainment of (nibbana) arises. .... S: OK, this is why I need to look at more of the text in context. The PTS translation here gives" "The Arahat, by the strong-dependence of bodily happiness generates the functional attainment which has not yet arisen. (He) enters the (functional) attainment which has arisen, (He) practises insight into the impermanency, suffering and impersonality of the formations...... by the strong-dependence of bodily pain....generates.........(He) practises insight into the impermanency, suffering and impersonality of the formations..." .... S: So this part of the text is referring to the arahat, hence the reference to phala (fruition) above. (Earlier, there is a reference in the text to 'object strong dependence' as well and how by this condition the arahat esteems and reviews (arahat) fruition and nibbana etc.) Whether it be pleasant or unpleasant bodily feelings arising (namas, as I've said), they can be a condition in this way for insight to arise. The Patthana is a very difficult text to dip into, but regardless, when one appreciates that vedana are always namas, always mental, one can appreciate that this is always what is being referred to, whether in the suttas, Vinaya or Abhidhamma. No difference. ... > i know some of you are expert in pali. hope i can start to learn this > language next year. .... S: I think the understanding of Abhidhamma, however basic, is the most useful. .... > looking forward to reading your comments .... S: I'll look forward to your feedback too, Melek, but my further replies to any new incoming mail will have to wait awhile as I'm going away and just trying to catch up with old posts for now. Metta, Sarah ========== #66780 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 3:21 am Subject: Meditation (again) jonoabb Hi Howard In a message to Scott you said: > Bhavana/cultivation has a far broader meaning than only meditation. > But meditation is a very important part of it, and often the word 'bhavana' has > the restricted sense of "meditation". > I welcome the view that bhavana has a far broader meaning than what most people refer to as meditation. 'Bhavana' literally means 'development', but the term 'cultivation' is also used in some translations. Any instance of the arising of panna is one form of bhavana or the other (samatha or vipassana). But what then is meditation as you use the term? Is it a reference to specific things mentioned in the texts, or to techniques for 'practising' those things? One of the difficulties of holding a meaningful discussion on this topic is the different (and generally vague) ideas people have about what meditation is. As someone who is careful with words, you will I'm sure be able to be specific about this. Jon #66781 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 5:56 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nidive Hi Scott, > I am understanding that the sukkhavipassaka 'musters' the requisite > concentration at moments of path and fruition, 'in a flash' and > that this, along with the other mental factors which are conascent, > suffices. How is the above to be understood in the context of your reply in Message No. 66697 in response to my question? ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/66697 SB: "The magga citta lasts for only one abhidhammic moment. The phala citta lasts for a maximum of three abhidhammic moments. So, we have a maximum of 4 abhidhammic moments of "supramundane jhana" per set of magga and phala cittas, making a total maximum of 16 abhidhammic moments of "supramundane jhana" for the four sets of magga and phala cittas. Do you really believe that the Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path factor of Right Concentration as consisting of only 16 abhidhammic moments, less than the time it takes for a snap of the fingers? Is there any basis for such a belief?" ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Not wanting to be difficult, but can you suggest where I might read > that the sukkhavipassaka has a need to a prior attainment of the > form jhaanas? 'Sukkhavipassaka' is an invention of the commentaries, sub- commentaries, sub-sub-commentaries, ..., the list goes on. It never appeared in the Nikayas. Sorry, there is nothing I could suggest. Swee Boon #66782 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 6:08 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks, I like the Sutta; but isn't this, as a response to the specifics of my question, a bit tautological? That's okay. J: "You can read the Buddha teach this in his first and most important discourse, 'Setting Rolling the Wheel of Truth'" The 'right concentration' referred to is what I am trying to pin down. Sincerely, Scott. #66783 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 6:09 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 126 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 126. Intro: In the preceding sections the Visuddhimagga explained which type of vipaakacitta has which type of kamma as condition, beginning with the kaamaavacara kusala vipaakacittas (of the sense sphere) produced by the formations of merit, kusala kamma. After that (123) the Visudhhimagga enumerates the five kinds of ruupaavacara vipaakacittas which are the results of ruupa-jhaana. These vipaakacittas arise only as rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta and cuti-citta of the following life. In the following section (124) the Visuddhimagga enumerates the seven kinds of akusala vipaakacittas produced by akusala kamma. These are the five sense-cognitions (seeing etc.) which are akusala vipaakacittas, and also two types of akusala vipaakacittas included in mind-consciousness, mano-vi~n~naa.na. The akusala vipaakacittas, included in mind--consciousness, mano- vi~n~naa.na, which are mentioned here are the following: Receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchanacitta, classified under mind- element, mano-dhaatu, and investigating-consciousness, santiira.nacitta, accompanied by indifferent feeling, classified under mind-consciousness element, mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu. After that (125) the Visuddhimagga enumerates the four types of aruupaavacara vipaakacittas which are the results of aruupa-jhaana. These vipaakacittas arise only as rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta and cuti-citta of the following life. There is no Tiika explanation to these last sections since kamma- formations and their results were formerly dealt with in detail. In the next sections the Visuddhimagga deals first with the vipaakacittas that occur only in the course of life (pavatti kaala), and after that it deals with the vipaakacittas occurring at the moment of rebirth-consciousness (pa.tisandhi kaala) and which also occur as bhavanga-citta and cuti-citta. ------------- Text Vis.126 :After knowing what kind of consciousness has what formations as its condition, one should now understand how it occurs as follows. [(2) The Occurrence of Resultant Consciousness] Now this resultant consciousness all occurs in two ways, namely, (a) in the course of an individual existence (or continuity), and (b) at the rebirth-linking [moment]. Herein, there are the two fivefold consciousnesses ((34)-(38)) and ((50)-(54)), two mind elements ((39) and (55)), and root-causeless mind-consciousness element accompanied by joy (40), that is, thirteen which occur only in the course of an existence in the five-constituent kind of becoming [20]. ---------- N: As to the five-constituent kind of becoming (pa~nca-vokaro), this refers to the planes where there are five khandhas, thus, naama and ruupa. There are also other planes of existence where there are only ruupa or only naama. The Visuddhimagga then enumerates the vipaakacittas ocurring only in the course of life: these are the five pairs of sensecognitions (seeing, etc.) which may be kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. The two mind elements (mano-dhaatu) are the two types of ahetuka vipaakacitta which is receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchanacitta, one type kusala vipaakacitta and one type akusala vipaakacitta. As to the mind-consciousness element (mano-vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu) accompanied by joy, this refers to the investigating-consciousness, santiira.nacitta, which is ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta and which occurs when the object is extraordinarily pleasant. Only this type of santiira.nacitta is mentioned here, because the other two types can also occur as rebirth-consciousness. In this section the vipaakacittas are mentioned that occur only in the course of life. ---------- Note 20 taken from the Tiika.: 'Unprofitable resultant eye- consciousness, etc., sometimes arise even in Brahmaas when undesirable visible data, etc., come into focus' (Pm.604). N: Beings born in ruupa-brahmaplanes may see or hear unpleasant objects that arise in a sensuous plane, but these objects do not arise in the ruupa-brahmaplanes (Vis. XVII, 180). ------------ Text Vis.: The remaining nineteen occur in the three kinds of becoming, either in the course of an existence or at rebirth-linking, as appropriate. How? ----------------------- N: The Tiika states with reference to the vipaakacittas that occur only in the course of an existence, that the meaning of this which is explained in brief, will be explained further. Therefore, the expression ‘how’ (kathan”ti) is used. This refers to the following sections. The remaining nineteen vipaakacittas can occur in three planes of existence as is appropriate: the sensuous planes, the ruupa-brahma planes and the aruupa-brahma-planes. These types of vipaakacitta are: two types of santiira.na-cittas which are ahetuka vipaaka, accompanied by indifferent feeling: one akusala vipaakacitta and one kusala vipaakacitta. Further there are eight mahaa-vipaakacittas, five ruupaavacara vipaakacittas and four aruupaavacara vipaakacittas. Thus, there are thirtytwo mundane vipaakacittas produced by twentynine kamma-formations, as we have seen before (Vis. 120-122). In the preceding sections further explanations were given and it was stated that not all kinds of vipaaka arise for all kinds of beings. ------------ Conclusion: we are reminded by the text of the Visuddhimagga that vipaakacittas such as seeing and hearing arise in the cycle of birth and death. They arise so long as there are kamma-formations that produce them. We cannot prevent seeing or hearing from arising, there are still conditions for their arising. Sometimes they experience a pleasant object, sometimes an unpleasant object, they are beyond control. All these vipaakacittas do not last, they fall away immediately and thus they are dukkha. Seeing and hearing that occur now can remind us that life in the cycle of birth and death is dukkha. ******** Nina. #66784 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 6:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vedana nilovg Hi Larry, I did not mean to write more posts (besides Vis.), but I like to say something in general about this subject. The first stage of insight is knowing the difference between nama and rupa. We have to go deeper into this matter, as Howard and I agreed, for the New Year! I myself would like to consider this subject more and I am truly grateful for any input. Citta and cetasikas, including feeling, are namas, they experience an object and they experience this each in their own way. We could say: feeling reacts to the object, but this is a kind of experiencing. Most important is to begin to investigate seeing when seeing occurs, or of feeling when feeling occurs, otherwise we always remain on the level of abstractions. Definitions only help to a certain extent. We can ask ourselves: nama experiences, and is this different from dead matter that does not know anything? Is the experience of nama not different from any kind of physical reaction? Lobha may react to a pleasant object, but is this kind of reaction not an experience, a nama? It really is a matter of urgency to investigate this, and precisely at the moment there is an experience, such as seeing, like, dislike. I cannot say more at the moment, Nina. Op 5-jan-2007, om 7:34 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I don't know what it means to say "nama experiences an object". If we > say nama reacts to an object, so does rupa, at least conventionally. A > foot-print in the mud is mud reacting to foot. I think we need a > better > understanding of "object of consciousness". #66785 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily life, 170 nilovg Dear friends, There are five types of rúpåvacara kiriyacittas which are the cittas of the arahat who attains rúpa-jhåna. He does not have kusala cittas but he has kiriyacittas instead. Thus, there are fifteen rúpåvacara cittas in all. Summarizing them, they are: 5 rúpåvacara kusala cittas 5 rúpåvacara vipåkacittas 5 rúpåvacara kiriyacittas Those who have attained to the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna and see the disadvantages of rúpa-jhåna which is still dependent on materiality, might want to cultivate arúpa-jhåna or ``immaterial jhåna''. The meditation subjects of arúpa-jhåna are not connected with materiality. There are four stages of arúpa-jhåna. The first stage of arúpa-jhåna is the ``Sphere of Boundless Space'' (åkåsånañcåyatana). In order to attain this stage of arúpa- jhåna one has to attain first the highest stage of rúpa-jhåna in any one of the kasina meditations (excepting the ``kasina of limited space'') and achieve mastery in it. We read in the Visuddhimagga (X, 6): When he has seen the danger in that (fine-material fourth jhåna) in this way and has ended his attachment to it, he gives attention to the ``Base consisting of Boundless Space'' as peaceful. Then, when he has spread out the kasina to the limit of the world-sphere, or as far as he likes, he removes the kasina (materiality) by giving his attention to the space touched by it, (regarding that) as ``space'' or ``boundless space''. As regards the ``Sphere of Boundless Space'', the Visuddhimagga (X, 8) explains about the ``removing'' of the kasina: And when the kasina is being removed, it does not roll up or roll away. It is simply that it is called ``removed'' on account of his non-attention to it, his attention being given to ``space, space''. This is conceptualized as the mere space left by the removal of the kasina (materiality)... In this way he can surmount the materiality of the kasina and attain the first arúpa-jhåna, the ``Sphere of Boundless Space''. There are three more stages of arúpa-jhåna, and each one of these is more subtle and more peaceful than the preceding one. ****** Nina #66786 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 6:15 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Hi Swee Boon, Thanks. SB: "'Sukkhavipassaka' is an invention of the commentaries, sub- commentaries, sub-sub-commentaries, ..., the list goes on. It never appeared in the Nikayas. Sorry, there is nothing I could suggest." Okay. Sincerely, Scott. #66787 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 1:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vedana upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Bill) - > ... > S: I thought the rest on nibbana was not bad at all....as you say, > anything we say is speculative there - we can only go by the texts. ------------------------------------- Howard: Why, *thank* you, Sarah! :-) ------------------------------------ > .... > p.s Howard, thank you so much for your further kind response on the > 'attack'. It's always difficult to find the right words and I'm glad you > didn't read my post as being unfriendly at least:-). > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Thank *you*, Sarah. You are never unkind or unfriendly. :-) ===================== With metta, Howard #66788 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Please Help me with Vipassana! upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - LOLOL! Stirring the pot, eh, Sarah? ;-)) With metta, Howard #66789 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 6:26 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana V, 4 nilovg Dear friends, Some people think that they should first have calm as a condition for more moments of satipatthåna later on, but that is desire, not mahå- kusala citta accompanied by paññå. Someone wrote to me that the development of jhåna would be beneficial for the development of vipassanå. He wrote: "Jhåna can provide a very strong basis of concentration serving the development of insight. Though jhåna is not strictly necessary to develop vipassanå, it can prove very effective in suppressing the hindrances and thereby allows the development of insight to proceed with special strength and consistency. Jhåna fulfills the factor of Right Concentration in the noble eightfold Path." The factors of the eightfold Path must be accompanied by right understanding of the eightfold Path, and the object must be a nåma or a rúpa. The factors of the eightfold Path are cetasikas which each have their own function in the development of right understanding of paramattha dhammas, of the realities appearing right now. When right understanding arises of the reality which appears there is also right thinking, vitakka, which assists right understanding; it "hits" the object which appears so that paññå can penetrate its characteristic and know it as it is. At that moment also right effort arises, which is effort or energy to develop understanding of the object which appears; it strengthens and supports paññå. The path-factor right mindfulness is aware of the nåma or rúpa which appears so that right understanding can develop. Right concentration (sammmå-samådhi) is concentration on the paramattha dhamma which appears, just for that moment. As to the factors which are síla (morality), namely, right action, right speech and right livelihood, they arise one at a time, when there is an opportunity for them. When there is a moment of right awareness and right understanding the eightfold Path is being developed. One can also say, satipatthåna is being developed, or vipassanå is being developed. It is the same. The development of the eightfold Path is not a matter of developing concentration separated from the other factors of the eightfold Path. When right understanding arises of a paramattha dhamma which appears there is already right concentration which arises naturally, because of conditions. At that moment right understanding is assisted by the other path-factors and there is no need to think of path-factors or name them. If one encourages people to develop jhåna as a foundation for vipassanå many misunderstandings are bound to arise. People may not know what true calm is, they may not know what jhåna is. They do not realize that the objects of vipassanå and samatha are different. ******* Nina. #66790 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 7:11 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana V, 4 nidive Hi Nina, > When right understanding arises of a paramattha dhamma which > appears there is ALREADY right concentration which arises > naturally, because of conditions. I don't think this is what the Buddha taught. Such a conditioning is never taught in Dependent Origination. It is tantamount to a Noble Onefold Path. This is not the Dhamma. Swee Boon #66791 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vedana upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Sarah & Bill) - Howard: I believe that in Dhammic terminology, while painful bodily sensations are rupas, the "pain" of them is the feeling of them ("vedanizing" of them) as unpleasant. So, from that perspective, a pain (better, a "paining") is actually an activity, a distasteful affective "tasting" of a bodily sensation. I think that in common usage, 'pain' usually denotes the unpleasant bodily sensations, themselves, which would make 'pains" constitute a variety of rupa in that common usage. There is yet another (similar) common-usage thinking about pain that I consider to be worse. That is the view that posits the following "things": 1) The painful sensation, 2) The "pain" - some other something-or-other or entity (another sort of rupa perhaps - who knows!) that accompanies the painful sensation, and 3) The knowing of the sensation and the knowing of the pain. In this case, item 1 is a reality and item 3 is a slightly distorted reality, but item 2 is a completely false postulation. There is no "pain" category of dhammas different from the painful sensations and also different from the feeling of them as unpleasant, neither fish nor fowl. There are just the painful sensations (rupas) and the knowing of them in a variety of ways, including the feeling of them as painful/unpleasant (vedana). --------------------------------------------------- > > I don't know what it means to say "nama experiences an object". If we > say nama reacts to an object, so does rupa, at least conventionally. A > foot-print in the mud is mud reacting to foot. I think we need a better > understanding of "object of consciousness". ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: My understanding is the following: Namas are mental activities of knowing of phenomena in a variety of ways and also activities that support such knowing. The mere knowing of a dull hardness in the body as "present" is vi~n~nanizing it, the feeling of it as unpleasant is vedanizing it, and the recogizing of it (wordlessly) as an ache is sa~n~nizing it. -------------------------------------------------- With metta, Howard #66792 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 7:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks. S: "...I think you'll find these details supported in CMA and other Abhidhamma texts and commentaries...Also more under 'Dry-insight', 'Susima Sutta', 'Jhanas - mundane and supramundane' and others in U.P." Yes, I do so find. These U.P. are, in fact, very 'useful' (hence the nomenclature). S: "p.s that 'shoulder biceps surgery' has certainly metamorphosised:-)." Yeah, for real! I'm satisfied at this point and don't really feel a need to follow the metamorphosis any further. Sincerely, Scott. #66793 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation (again) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - What I consider Buddhist meditation to be is the intentional activity discussed in such suttas as the Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas. We view those suttas differently, of course. ;-) But that's all been hashed out many times before, Jon. With metta, Howard P.S. I'm not very interested at the moment in engaging in lengthy discussions of what meditation may or may not be. Instead, I'd rather do a bit more of it! ;-) It happens that I have been more regular in my meditation practice recently, and I have benefited from it, it seems. Last night I had a "mystical" dream of such majesty and glorious beauty that it caused me to sob from joy (while dreaming and upon awakening). It was like a "gift". Not the usual sort of experience for me, but very, very welcome. #66794 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation -(-w-a-s-s-h-o-u-l-d-e-r-b-i-c-e-p-s-s-u-r-g-e-r-y-)- upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/5/07 10:13:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > p.s that 'shoulder biceps surgery' has certainly metamorphosised:-). > ====================== Yes, high time to cut that from the subject line! ;-) With metta, Howard #66795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 11:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation and mindfulness in daily life (Was: New year nilovg Hi Sarah, excellent. I am glad to read again this old post I had forgotten. Gives food for thought. Nina. Op 5-jan-2007, om 10:03 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > "The Buddha made a vinaya rule against the practice of silence > (muugabbata) as follows: #66796 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 12:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana V, 4 nilovg Hi Swee Boon, The Path factors develop together. When the object is nama or rupa, in the case of the mundane Path development right concentration that accompanies right understanding does its function of focussing on the nama or rupa that appears. With 'already' I mean, it has already arisen together with sammaditthi and no need to try to have it. It is there already because of its own conditions. This is important: because of its own conditions. If we don't grasp this we take it for my important concentration which I should try to increase. We continue after Bgk if you like. Nina. Op 5-jan-2007, om 16:11 heeft nidive het volgende geschreven: > When right understanding arises of a paramattha dhamma which > > appears there is ALREADY right concentration which arises > > naturally, because of conditions. > > I don't think this is what the Buddha taught. > > Such a conditioning is never taught in Dependent Origination. > > It is tantamount to a Noble Onefold Path. #66797 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 1:13 pm Subject: scottduncan2 Interested Mental-Developers' I would like to learn more about the first stage of insight. Kh. Sujin notes (A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, p. 325): "Mahaa-kusala citta ~naa.na-sampayutta arises and clearly distinguishes the difference between the characteristic of naama and the characteristic of ruupa as they appear one at a time. The objects of 'the world' appear as devoid of self. At that moment there is no attaa-sa~n~naa (wrong remembrance of self), which used to remember or perceive realities as 'a whole,' conceived as 'the world.' There begins to be right remembrance of the realities which appear as anattaa. Satipa.t.thaana should continue to be aware of all kinds of naama and ruupa, in addition to those realised at the moment of vipassanaa ~naa.na. When there is awareness of realities, pa~n~na should consider again and again anattaa-sa~n~naa penetrated at the moment of vipassanaa ~naana. Otherwise attaa-sa~n~na, which has been accumulated for a long time in the cycle of birth and death, cannot be eradicated." What exactly is naama? What exactly is ruupa? Ruupa doesn't experience anything. Naama is experience. Or something. Anyone want to discuss this? Sincerely, Scott. #66798 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 1:52 pm Subject: Re: naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na ken_aitch Hi Scott, -------------- S: > What exactly is naama? What exactly is ruupa? Ruupa doesn't > experience anything. Naama is experience. Or something. Anyone want > to discuss this? -------------- Sorry to be pedantic, but I think we should say, "Nama experiences and object," or, "Nama is the experiencing of an object." To say "Nama is experience," or, "Nama is the experience of an object," is to go too far, I think. But we (or others) have had that discussion. So if you want to skip that part and continue with other aspects, that would be fine by me. Ken H #66799 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 5, 2007 2:52 pm Subject: Re: naama-ruupa-pariccheda-~naa.na scottduncan2 Hi Ken, Thanks: K: "Sorry to be pedantic, but I think we should say, "Nama experiences an object," or, "Nama is the experiencing of an object." To say "Nama is experience," or, "Nama is the experience of an object," is to go too far, I think." That's fair. I think that is more precise. This is definition by function. I'll look into the stacks for old discussions and try to catch up. Pedantically yours, Scott.