#67600 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: elements of experience egberdina Hi Scott, On 29/01/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Hi Herman, > > H: "I also don't for a moment believe there are two realities in > > operation. I was simply drawing out the implications of MN01." > > Right on. > > H: "According to MN01, there is perception and direct knowing. I don't > know if the suggestion is that there is "one" "external" reality, and > that the difference is in the mode of being conscious of it, or that > one who perceives lives in a different reality to the one who knows > directly. (Personally, I don't buy the notion of an external reality, > reality is simply what is experienced.)" > > I just go with the standard visible object/eye base/seeing > consciousness triad. 'Perception' and 'knowing directly' are two > separate realities each with its own function. > > H: "Do you then think that two people can experience the same rupa?" > > The question is flawed. Two people are not real, while 'experience > and ruupa are real. > This is a perplexing answer, given that you have just agreed that perception is real. Kind Regards Herman #67601 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: elements of experience scottduncan2 Hi Herman, S: "The question is flawed. Two people are not real, while 'experience and ruupa are real." H: "This is a perplexing answer, given that you have just agreed that perception is real." Be not perplexed. Think of mental factors each with its own function. Sa~n~na (perception) is a cetasika, is real, and is part of every moment of consciousness. Of course its real. S. #67602 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: elements of experience egberdina Hi Scott, On 29/01/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Hi Herman, > > S: "The question is flawed. Two people are not real, while 'experience > and ruupa are real." > > H: "This is a perplexing answer, given that you have just agreed that > perception is real." > > Be not perplexed. Think of mental factors each with its own function. > Sa~n~na (perception) is a cetasika, is real, and is part of every > moment of consciousness. Of course its real. > What then should I make of your statement that people are not real? That aside, do you know of the top of your head, what the relevant Pali words are for "to perceive" and "to directly know" as in MN01? If so, thanks in advance, and otherwise that's cool too. Kind Regards Herman #67603 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/28/07 7:10:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > The Buddha had broken the bounds of samsara, but he was not free from the > effects of samsara until he died. He still suffered physical pains. The > Buddha suffered the residue of samsara. He was not completely free from > samsara > until death. ------------------------------------------ Howard: The Buddha experienced unpleasant bodily sensations. However, he did NOT suffer from them. A buddha, living or beyond life, does not suffer. ----------------------------------------- > > In the case of an arahat, there does seem to be some "middle ground." But > > it seems to me for practical purposes, nama/rupa and samsara are > co-generating and co-dependent. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Samsara is the state of suffering. The second noble truth gives the cause of dukkha, namely tanha. No tanha, no dukkha. No dukkha, no problem. ------------------------------------------ > > TG > ==================== With metta, Howard #67605 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 1/28/07 7:44:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Howard: "I don't think so. Samsara, or wandering, is a realm of > defilement. The Buddha, IMO, prior to his death, was already beyond > samsara." > > Visuddhimagga,XV,4: > > "[As to meaning] in general, however, base (aayatana) should be > understood as such (a) because of its actuating (aayatana), (b) > because of being the range (tanana) of the origins (aaya), and (c) > because of leading on (nayana) what is actuated (aayata). > > "Now the various states of consciousness and its concomitants > belonging to such and such a door-cum-object among those consisting of > the eye-cum-visible-datum, etc., (a) are actuated (aayananti), each by > means of its individual function of experiencing, etc.; they are > active, strive, and endeavour in these, is what is meant. And (b) > these [doors-cum-objects] provide the range for (tanonti) those states > that are origins (aaya); they give them scope, is what is meant. And > (c) as long as this suffering of the round of rebirths, which has gone > on occuring throughout the beginningless round of rebirths and so is > enormously actuated (ayata), does not recede, so long they lead on > (nayanti); they cause occurence is what is meant. > > "So all these things are called 'bases' because they actuate, because > they are the range of the origins, and because they lead on what is > actuated." ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what to make of the preceding strained English, Scott, or its importance, but I will go on. ---------------------------------------------- > > I don't think sa.msaara is a place. It is the beginningless and > unsevered chain of the five-fold khandhas. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think it's a place either, Scott. I used 'realm' figuratively. I could have used 'state' or 'situation' or 'circumstance' instead. I do not, however, identify samsara with the khandhas. The khandhas, or, equivalently the sense doors and their objects, constituting "the all", are the basis both for samsara and for nibbana. There is but one reality: the all. From the perspective of avijja, it is misperceived, and that state of misperception and consequent dukkha is samsara. A living arahant is already beyond suffering, nibbana has been realized fully, and no delusion, craving, aversion, or clinging remains. Illusion no longer holds sway. If experience ceases upon the death of an arahant it is not because s/he is in a yet-imperfect state while alive, but is due to no craving for experience remaining. ---------------------------------------------- > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > ======================= With metta, Howard #67606 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/28/07 7:57:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > (Okay, I think > I am giving this too much thought- my cittas are in a twist! ;-)) > ===================== Yep, me too! LOL! Calls for some very, very formal rite & ritual ... er, I mean meditation! ;-)) With metta, Howard #67607 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:48 am Subject: Re: Ghana corvus121 Hi Larry and Scott Okay, thanks for this - discussion of ghana is tucked away in the Visuddhimagga. When I read about it in the textbook, it struck me as being rather significant: 4 basic "errors" or perceptual tendencies that give rise to vipallasa. They are also the fundaments of atta belief IMO. If we had to reduce the Ghana to one phrase, I think this is it - "things ain't as they seem". Best wishes Andrew PS you can call me Danny Boy, if you like. :-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: >> Visuddhimagga XXI,n.3(Pm. 824): > > "...'Resolution of the compact' [ghana] #67608 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:07 pm Subject: Lachen und Weinen (Was: Re: [dsg] Meditation (again) buddhatrue Hi Joop, Joop: Yes, James can put things nice (sometimes). James: LOL! I'm not quite sure how to take that! ;-)) Joop: I want to know what the term "recognize" means exactly, is there a sense with which one recognizes? I will call that: empathy, being touched by. James: Empathy is feeling the other person's feelings. An arahant couldn't personally feel suffering so he/she couldn't empathize with a person in that way. However, he/she could recognize the suffering of another with wisdom (oh, that dreaded word! ;-)). But seriously, it is wisdom that would allow them to see the suffering of others but not be personally affected. I am reminded of the sutta about the comedian/actor. He goes to the Buddha and asks if he will be reborn in heaven because of his profession The Buddha doesn't want to answer and puts him off three times, until he finally answers the question. The Buddha tells the comedian/actor that he will be reborn as either an animal or the hell realms. The comedian/actor starts to cry and the Buddha tells him that he didn't want to answer for that reason- he didn't want to make him upset. In this instance, the Buddha can see that this comedian/actor is going to suffer a terrible rebirth. However, the Buddha doesn't personally feel anything about that- actually, he doesn't even want to tell him about it because it would upset him. This is not the conventional idea of compassion. The conventional idea of compassion would be that the Buddha would go out of his way to `save' the comedian/actor by warning him about the future rebirth. But compassion with wisdom doesn't always work in obvious ways- there was only so much the Buddha could do. Metta without equanimity is suffering; karuna without equanimity is suffering. Metta, James #67609 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 9:21 pm Subject: Re: compassion of Arahants buddhatrue Hi Joop, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > I'm glad you use "compassion" in conceptual way, not as Jon did who > said: only karuna as a paramattha dhamma is important. > A consequence of this and a question to you: Jon states > that "empathy" is not needed to have compassion. > Do you agree with that statement that is in my view the same as: > condition for having compassion is the being touched by the suffering > of that being? James: No, I don't agree with that definition. I wrote a post before this one which I believe explains more. I believe that compassion combined with the equanimity of wisdom stops the arahant from personally "feeling" the suffering of others. Joop, if you personally felt the suffering of others, especially a multitude of others, it would tear you apart! You would be dead within an instant. Equanimity is needed. > > I realize this is a tricky topic. Because in fact it's about the > question: were the Mahaynists right two thousand years ago in > criticising the Theravadins ? James: No, I don't think that they were right. The vow to "Save all sentient beings" is an impossibility and illogical. In order for it to work, all sentient beings would have to be 'saved' at exactly the same instant. Theravadins are realists; Mahayanists are idealists. > In fact I say: well, they were not completely wrong. > James: I think that they were wrong in a lot of respects, but we don't really need to get into that. > > Metta > > Joop Metta, James #67610 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:59 pm Subject: Energetic Effort! bhikkhu5 Friends: Energy Boosts Advantageous Right Effort! By it one strives and struggles, thus is it energetic effort. Any advantageous exertion of endeavour is a right effort. By it one works in the right direction, thus is it right effort. It is right, because it eliminates all the ugly evil mentalities. It is effort, because it brings progress of well-being and bliss. Therefore is it called Right Effort. It is a name for Energy... Right Effort achieves these four functions: 1: Elimination of already arisen detrimental mental states! 2: Prevention of detrimental mental states not yet arisen! 3: Initiation of advantageous mental states not yet arisen! 4: Maintenance of already arisen advantageous mental states! Thus is it fourfold. That is why it is called the 4 right efforts... Source: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga by Ariya Buddhaghosa from 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Definition and Inspiration also at: http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Effort.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Enthusiastic_is_Energy.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #67611 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation jonoabb Hi Joop Joop wrote: > Hallo James, Jon, Herman > > The answer is already given: > > "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to > the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his > legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the > fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; > mindful he breathes out. " (DN 22) > I did see your sutta quote in an earlier post, but took it to be an instance of a particular kind of meditation rather than a definition. That is to say, I presume you regard the breath as one of several possible objects of meditation. What I was looking for was a general definition. To use James' ice cream analogy, a definition of ice cream regardless of flavour, rather than a description of a particular flavour of ice cream. Care to have a crack at it? (slang for 'give it a try?' ;-)) Jon #67612 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: >> I've been asking others lately, so I might as well ask you, too: What >> do you understanding by the term 'meditation' (or 'to meditate')? >> > > Under meditation I would include any act that is a deliberate holding > of and attending to any objects in mind. > Sounds like a very reasonable definition ;-)) As a matter of interest, do you see meditation as the only way of coming to a better understanding of the way things truly are, or is the development of that kind of understanding possible outside of times of meditation practice? Jon PS Many thanks for the good wishes. Now fully recovered (indeed, feeling better than ever!). #67613 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience lbidd2 Hi Howard, --------------------------- L: "My view is that rupa is not directly known." H: "How would you know?????" --------------------------- L: Reason Larry #67614 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 5:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 1/28/2007 7:25:52 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/28/07 7:10:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: > The Buddha had broken the bounds of samsara, but he was not free from the > effects of samsara until he died. He still suffered physical pains. The > Buddha suffered the residue of samsara. He was not completely free from > samsara > until death. ------------------------------------------ Howard: The Buddha experienced unpleasant bodily sensations. However, he did NOT suffer from them. A buddha, living or beyond life, does not suffer. ----------------------------------------- TG: I disagree. Although he did not feel grief, worry, or depression from his pains, I believe he did suffer. An arahat or Buddha can suffer physically. from Digha Nikaya ... "And after eating the meal provided by Chunda the Lord was attacked by a severe sickness with bloody diarrhea, and with sharp pains as of he were about to die. But he endured all this mindfully and clearly aware, and without complaint." "Having eaten Chunda's meal He suffered a grave illness, painful, deathly..." > > In the case of an arahat, there does seem to be some "middle ground." But > > it seems to me for practical purposes, nama/rupa and samsara are > co-generating and co-dependent. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Samsara is the state of suffering. The second noble truth gives the cause of dukkha, namely tanha. No tanha, no dukkha. No dukkha, no problem. TG: Again, I think the above from Digha Nikaya would not support the "cut and dry" case you present. As the Buddha was susceptible to experiencing the residue of tanha, i.e. his continuing nama/rupa, he was susceptible of experiencing the dukkha from that...in the form of physical pain. ------------------------------------------ > > TG > ==================== With metta, Howard Good arguments. TG #67615 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:34 am Subject: re Letters on Vipassana 5,6 nilovg Hi Herman, I like to answer your post, you always bring up good points. ---------- In the beginning we cannot yet have clear understanding of nåma as > nåma and of rúpa as rúpa. > From the beginning one should > understand that realities are anattå. Seeing is anattå; it arises > because kamma produces it, nobody can produce his own seeing. H:I wonder why you think it impossible to understand nama/rupa in the beginning, yet quite possible to understand anatta? ------------- N: Understandable that you find this contradictory. There are many degrees of understanding anatta and I do not think yet of directly realizing it. This will happen at the moment of enlightenment. But I like to say a few things about beginning to understand it, because this is, I believe, essential. Before hearing the Buddha's teachings we took it for granted that I see, I think. But now we learn that there are dhammas, realities that see or think. We learn that these are cittas performing their functions, but when they actually appear we do not realize that they are dhammas, conditioned realities, non-self. However, intellctual understanding of what appears now, is pariyatti which can condition patipatti, direct awareness and understanding. It is helpful to understand more when there is a sense of self who sees, is attached, angry or studies the Dhamma. When we understand this more, there is a beginning to know what is non-self. ------- H: One may well be able to memorise what different people say about anatta, or what one thinks about anatta, but this has nothing to do with understanding. ------ N: Quite. It is understanding that matters, and it has to be one's own understanding. -------- H:And such activity, the activity of memorising, and bringing to the fore what we have remembered about anatta, is very much a volitional activity, and all part of the project of being a certain kind of being. "I am going to be this and that kind of Buddhist, I am going to be the Buddhist who understands anatta". ------------ N: Yes, there is always this danger. Pa~n~naa should see through all this. ------ H: Further, nobody will ever see kamma produce anything. Kamma is one of many explanations for what is experienced, and it is never possible to experience an explanation. What one understands to be the causes/conditions for what is happening at the moment will always be in the form of a footnote to the page, or a narration to an event. ------ N: We can never quite understand the operations of kamma, it is the field of Buddhas. But to some extent we can understand it. The first moment of life did not come about by accident, I take the word of the Master that kamma produced that moment. I do not mind about explanation or description. I quote some of ADL Ch 3: < Different accumulations of kamma are the condition for different results in life. This is the law of kamma and vipåka, of cause and result. We see that people are born into different circumstances. Some people live in agreeable surroundings and they have many pleasant experiences in their lives. Other people may often have disagreeable experiences; they are poor or they suffer from ill health. When we hear about children who suffer from malnutrition, we wonder why they have to suffer whereas other children receive everything they need. The Buddha taught that everyone receives the results of his own deeds. A deed or kamma of the past can bring about its result later on, because akusala kamma and kusala kamma are accumulated. When there are the right conditions the result can be brought about in the form of vipåka.... The Atthasåliní (Book I, Analysis of Terms, Part II, 65) explains that kamma of different people causes different results at birth and throughout life. Even bodily features are the result of kamma. We read: ...In dependence on the difference in kamma appears the difference in the destiny of beings without legs, with two legs, four legs, many legs, vegetative, spiritual, with perception, without perception, with neither perception nor without perception. Depending on the difference in kamma appears the difference in the births of beings, high and low, base and exalted, happy and miserable. Depending on the difference in kamma appears the difference in the individual features of beings as beautiful or ugly, high-born or low-born, well-built or deformed. Depending on the difference in kamma appears the difference in the worldly conditions of beings as gain and loss, fame and disgrace, blame and praise, happiness and misery. Further on we read: By kamma the world moves, by kamma men Live, and by kamma are all beings bound As by its pin the rolling chariot wheel. (``Sutta Nipåta'', 654) The Buddha taught that everything arises because of conditions; it is not by chance that people are so different in bodily features and character, and that they live in such different circumstances. Even the difference in bodily features of animals is due to different kamma.> To say it in plain Dutch: je krijgt het allemaal op je brood. Nina. #67616 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (1) sarahprocter... Hi Connie, (Scott & all), --- connie wrote: > connie: why this order / emphasis, as ever repeated: eyes, ears, nose, > tongue, body, mind. what's so special about visual object? .... S: The frequency and attachment on account of visual objects for a start. And then there's the great delusion on account of the attachment and ignorance about what's seen. Doesn't it seem 'light' all the time, don't we think we see whilst hearing, thinking and so on? Is it just the visual object or is it the dream world most the time? Whatever else, visual object has to be known clearly for what it is. .... >open eyes, > visual object the size of my field of vision. close eyes, dream vision. > they look the same. what gives? .... S: I could quibble a little about 'the size of my field of vision' (a tad scientific for my liking..), but as to what gives - in a)visual object actually appears momentarily in between the dream vision, whilst in b)[with eyes closed] it's just dream vision. So sati can be aware of visual object, but the dream vision can only be dreamt about:-). .... >evidently i don't quite get what > visual > object is before it's buried in conceptualization. even the foggy > periphery as you come out of another off elsewhere moment, the blur > comes > to focus with names, locale... 'in the seen, just the seen'? no, for > me, > in the seen, the scene. lone star and rahu rise again. ..... S: Better to realise it is the scene than to wrongly assume the seen is clearly known.....and of course, visual object is not a blur simply because there's so little awareness - it remains as it is, but the wisdom gets sharper. Lone stars, eclipses, scenes of all kinds.....dreams about visual objects all day..... I had planned to include a Sammohavin. quote on 'why vis. object first', but can't find my marker.... another time if I come across it. Thx for your good quotes and excuse my butting into your post addressed to Scott! Metta, Sarah ========= #67618 From: connie Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:55 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (5) nichiconn Sister Groupies, The last six in the section of single verses are grouped together under a single heading: "Tissaaditheriigaathaava.n.nanaa" - "commentary on the verses of [another] Tissa, etc." where 'etc' would be two Dhiraas, a Mittaa, Bhadraa and Upasammaa. Other than a few footnotes and the verses themselves, Mrs R-D devotes a single paragraph to them after verse 10. It reads: << Of all these six Sisters the story is similar to that of Tissaa (IV.)*, with this exception: Dhiiraa, called 'another Sister Dhiiraa,' had no glory-verse pronounced to her, but was troubled in heart at the Master's teaching. Leaning on his words, she strove for insight, and when she had reached Arahantship, she declaimed her verse in exultation. All the others did the same. >> *{iv = #67529 Pruitt's similar paragraph is at the beginning of the group: << Tissaa, apply yourself to good mental states is the verse of [another] Therii Tissaa. Her story is the same as the story for the trainee Tissaa [above, v.4]. And this one, having become a therii, attained Arahatship. And just as for this one, so also for the others here: Dhiraa, Viiraa, Mittaa, Bhadraa, Upasamaa, the story of these five theriis is identical. All lived in Kapilavatthu as concubines of the Bodhisatta, departed with Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii, and attained Arahatship through a verse of radiance (obhasa-gaathaaya) except for the seventh one [Viiraa]. She, on the contrary, was without a verse of radiance, depending all the more on instruction obtained from the Teacher. She zealously practised insight meditation, attained Arahatship, and spoke the verse [beginning] You are Viiraa because of your firm [mental states] as a solemn utterance. And similarly the others, having attained Arahatship, said these verses: >> The first of the group: V -- Another Sister Tissaa. text: Tisse yu~njassu dhammehi, kha.no ta.m maa upaccagaa; kha.naatiitaa hi socanti, nirayamhi samappitaa. R-D: Tissaa! lay well upon thy heart the yoke Of noblest culture. See the moment come! Let it not pass thee by! for many they Who mourn in misery that moment past. (5) Pruitt: Tissaa, apply yourself to good mental states. Do not let the opportune moment pass you by, for those who have missed the opportune moment grieve when consigned to hell. cy: << There, apply yourself (yu~njassu) to good mental states (dhammehi) means: apply yourself [alt. gram. form] to the noble mental states of calm and insight and the [thirty-seven] states associated with awakening, make an application (yoga.m karohi) [to them]. Do not let the opportune moment (kha.na) pass you by (upaccagaa) means: whoever does not develop effort (yoga-bhaavana), having recieved (1) the oportunity of rebirth (uppatti-kkha.na) in a suitable country [ie, near a Buddha], (2) the opportunity [of being] without deficiency of the six sense bases, (3) the opportunity of birth during a Buddha era, (4) the opportunity of receiving faith, him indeed all that opportune moment passes over. Do not let this opportune moment pass you by (ati-kkami). Those who have missed the oportune moment (kha.naatiitaa) means: indeed, any individual who has passed up (atiitaa) the opportune moment (kha.na), and those individuals the opportune moment has passed over (atiito), having been consigned to hell, they grieve; having been reborn there, they suffer great pain. This is the meaning. >> peace, c. #67619 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:52 am Subject: Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 127. nilovg Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 127. In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with the vipaakacittas which are the five pairs of the pa~ncavi~n~naa.nas, seeing, etc. , which are kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka, occurring in the course of life. Text Vis. 127. [2. (a) In the Course of an Existence] Firstly, in one who has been reborn by means of either profitable result or unprofitable result: according as his faculties mature, so the five profitable-resultant eye-, etc., consciousnesses occur accomplishing the respective functions of 'seeing', 'hearing', 'smelling', 'tasting', and 'touching' ((d)-(h)), contingent respectively upon a desirable or desirable-neutral visible datum, etc., as object that has come into the focus of the eye, etc., and having the sensitivity of the eye, etc., as [material] support. ------------ N: Those born with a pa.tisandhicitta which is kusala vipaaka are born in a happy plane and those born with a pa.tisandhicitta which is akusala vipaaka are born in a woeful plane. We read in the text: ‘according as his faculties mature’. In the case of human birth, kamma produces the three decads (groups of ten ruupas) of heartbase, sex and bodysense. The sense faculties of eyesense etc. develop later on, thus, there is not seeing or hearing immediately after the first moment of life. Seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions are dependent on visible object etc. and eyesense, etc. Otherwise they could not arise. ----------- Text Vis.: And likewise the five unprofitable-resultant consciousnesses; the only difference being this, that the visible data, etc., as object for these are undesirable or undesirable- neutral. And these ten are invariable as to their door, object, physical basis, and position [in the cognitive series], and invariable as to their functions. ------------ N: They are fixed or invariable as to the doorway, object and physical base: seeing only experiences visible object through the eyedoor and it arises at the eyebase. Hearing only experiences sound through the eardoor and it arises at the earbase. One may think that there is a person who can see and hear at the same time, but seeing and hearing are different cittas arising at different moments, each because of their own conditions and they perform each thier own function. And it is the same for the other pa~ncavi~n~naa.nas. Moreover, they are invariable as to their position, that is, they arise in a fixed order in a sense-door process. Seeing always arises after the eye-door adverting-consciousness. Hearing always arises after the ear-door adverting-consciousness. And they are fixed as to their function: seeing has the function of seeing, it cannot perform any other function. And it is the same for the other pa~ncavi~n~naa.nas. The ‘Summary of the Topics of the Abhidhamma’, in the commentary (T.A. p. 129), reminds us of the anattaness of realities when speaking of the fixed order of cittas (niyama): Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:03 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 5, no 8 nilovg Dear friends, When I say that it depends on one's accumulations of kusala and akusala what type of citta arises I do not mean that we are in a hopeless situation. Accumulations are not something static; there can be accumulation of wholesomeness and understanding again. This is hopeful, if there were no accumulation, how could we learn to have more mettå, or how could satipatthåna be developed? It is not true that nothing can be done. We should consider the Dhamma and study more, and verify what we read in our own life. Hearing the Dhamma conditions more understanding of one's life. However, some people may hear the Dhamma but it does not mean anything to them. Why? They have no accumulations for it. If someone thinks that he is a hopeless victim of his accumulations and cannot develop understanding, it is a moment of thinking which is akusala. When he thinks, "I cannot", he thinks so because of his lack of understanding of conditions. When right understanding is developed it can understand this moment only. Dhamma is subtle and intricate, one really needs to consider it carefully. All moments of consideration of realities are accumulated, they are never lost. Thus understanding can grow and grow, until the time has come for direct awareness without thinking about realities. Then another step has been taken. Nobody can plan or control the arising of the stages of insight and enlightenment. Can we accept this or is there a secret resistance against this fact? We want to control all the time. The wish to control leads one away from developing understanding naturally in daily life. Some people want to sit and concentrate first on breathing, or on rúpas of the body they believe they can feel moving. One may be inclined to do something else first, anything else except knowing the present moment. Thus it is understandable that some people like to stress volitional control more than paññå. Volition, cetanå cetasika, arising with each citta, is like a supervisor of the accompanying cetasikas, but it supervises them only at that one moment that it arises together with them. It cannot call paññå to come forward when there is no paññå at that moment. There is kusala volition and akusala volition, there is volition arising with vipåkacitta and with kiriyacitta (inoperative citta) and these volitions are different all the time. They are conditioned by the accompanying dhammas and in their turn they also condition the accompanying dhammas. Volition is not a factor of the eightfold Path. Viriya (energy) is, but it is energy or courage for being aware and developing understanding of the reality which is appearing. It must arise together with right understanding of the eightfold Path in order to perform its function, and it prevents one from becoming disheartened about the development. ******* Nina. #67621 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- Phil wrote: > Ph '07: I still haven't heard or read a strong warning against > wanting to have too much mindfulness. <...>> Now I have paid more attention to Anguttara Nikaya. It is laid out > there in an indisputably clear way (I certainly won't get in any > debates about it) that before one tries to see into "one's present > level of accumulated sati and other kusala that perform the guarding > function" there is guarding to be done. .... <....> >As the guarding develops, > one's behaviour becomes more morally sound. This leads to > concentration developing, which leads to insight. This is not a > disputable point, as far as Phil '07 is concerned. <...> .... S: Enjoying the dialogue between Phil '05 & '07:-) How does Phil '07 read the many Anguttara suttas which stress the importance of right view as leader and the danger of following the wrong path? (No need to answer. Here's one): Bk of 10s, 104 'The Seed' (PTS transl): " 'Monks, for a man, a person, who has wrong view, wrong thinking, speech, action, living, effort, mindfulness, concentration, wrong knowledge and wrong release, whatsoever bodily action is carried to completion and fulfilment according to that view, whatsoever action of spech, of mind, whatsoever intention, aspiration, resolve, whatsoever activities of mind (directed thereto) there may be - all those states conduce to what is unpleasant, not delightful, not charming, not profitable, to what is painful. What is the cause of that? Monks, the view is bad. "Suppose, monks, a nimb-seed or a seed of a creeper or bitter gourd be planted in moist soil. Whatever essence it derives from earth or water, all that conduces to its bitterness, its acridity, its unpleasant taste. What is the cause of that? The bad nature of the seed, monks." ..... S: Of course the sutta goes on to say how the opposite is true and how when the view is auspicious (bhaddikaa), 'the states conduce to what is pleasant', like when a seed of sugar-cane, paddy or grape is planted in moist soil, it 'conduces to its sweetness, pleasantness and delicious flavour' because of the 'happy nature of the seed.'" ***** Metta, Sarah ====== #67622 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:05 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (1) [out of order] nichiconn To anyone remotely interested in my response to Sarah's contribution: Sarah: I had planned to include a Sammohavin. quote on 'why vis. object first', but can't find my marker.... another time if I come across it. Connie: Thanks for the reminder; i think you had in mind: Dispeller: << 223. (4) As to order: here also, from among "order of arising" and so on stated above, {18} only "order of teaching" is appropriate. For among the internal bases the eye base is taught first, being obvious through having as its object what is visible (sanidassana) and accompanied by impact (sappa.tigha). After that, the ear base, etc. which have as their objects what is invisible and acompanied by impact. Or alternatively the eye base and ear base are taught first among the internal bases because of their great helpfulness as causes for the Incomparable of Seeing and for the Incomparable of Hearing [respectively] (cf. A iii 325). After that the three beginning with the nose base. And the mind base [is taught] last because of its having the resorts of the [other] five as its object. But because of their being the [respective] resorts of the eye base and so on, the visible-data base and so on, among the external [bases, are taught] each next [to its corresponding internal base]. 18} See above #129 and Vis 476. 224. Furthermore, this order of theirs should be understood as defining the reasons for the arising of consciousness; and this is said: "Due to eye and to visible data, eye-consciousness arises" (M i 111-2). Thus should the definition be known here "as to order". >> connie: what's so special about visual object? S: The frequency and attachment on account of visual objects for a start. connie: 0pen eyes, visual object the size of my field of vision. close eyes, dream vision. they look the same. what gives? .... S: I could quibble a little about 'the size of my field of vision' (a tad scientific for my liking..), but as to what gives - in a)visual object actually appears momentarily in between the dream vision, whilst in b)[with eyes closed] it's just dream vision. So sati can be aware of visual object, but the dream vision can only be dreamt about:-). connie: I'll see your quibble and raise you one. Do we really mean 'visible data' as in the derived rupa called colour when we say 'visual objects' or is there a lurking belief that 'object' means something like 'book shape' or maybe even 'cow'? Arrr... another vague memory of reading something (Illustrator?) about this seen-ness being just a "glimmer" so not the usual - or ghanac -(o, boo!) whole or parts (which would just be other wholes). I do, by the way, think there is unseen 'visible data' behind me... but then again, I go thru the day thinking I hear voices ;) peace, c. #67623 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (1) [out of order] sarahprocter... Hi Connie, --- connie wrote: > Connie: Thanks for the reminder; i think you had in mind: > > Dispeller: << 223. (4) As to order: here also, from among "order of > arising" and so on stated above, {18} only "order of teaching" is > appropriate. For among the internal bases the eye base is taught first, > > being obvious through having as its object what is visible (sanidassana) > > and accompanied by impact (sappa.tigha). After that, the ear base, etc. .... S: Thank you!! Visitors in town, so in and out - will get back to the quibble game later:-) Metta, Sarah ======= #67624 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:07 am Subject: Re: The Roots buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > You and I and Howard should regard ourselves with all the humility we > can muster. For someone of such great humility, you sure are a know-it-all! ;-)) Unfortunately, this post doesn't directly clash with anything I wrote; it's just a pedantic lecture. Metta, James #67625 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:41 am Subject: Re: A Meaningful Sense of Me and Mine Re: [dsg] Identifying Wrong Views? sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& Antony), --- upasaka@... wrote: > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: <..> > > but of course, when we say 'I was/am so miserable/happy', only right > > understanding can know at the time whether there is any wrong view of > self > > or not. > > > ========================= Howard: <..> > So, as I see it, if independent existence, self-existence and/or > substantial core, is read into such usage as "I", "me", "my", and > "mine", that is > reification of the person, that is atta-view, but if that is not read > into this > usage, and the usage pertains only to distinguishing namarupic streams, > it is > a valid usage. ... S: Agreed. As I said, only rt understanding at the time can know if there's any atta-view involved. Sometimes, it can be quite subtle. Metta, Sarah ====== #67626 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:04 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (1) [out of order] nichiconn ps, Sarah, All, just another quote on the order of the bases: Path of Purification ch XV: << 11. As to order: here too, from among 'order of arising', etc., mentioned above (XIV 211), only 'order of teaching' is appropriate. For the eye is taught first among the internal bases since it it obvious because it has as its objective field what is visible with resistance (see last triad, Dhs p.2). After that, the ear base, etc., which have as their objective fields what is invisible with resistance. Or alternatively, the eye base and ear base are taught first among the internal bases because of their great helpfulness as [respective] causes for the Incomparable of Seeing and the Incomparable of Hearing (see D iii 250). Next, the three beginning with the nose base. And the mind base is taught last because it has as its resort the objective fields of the [other] five (M i 295). But among the external bases the visible data base, etc., [are taught] each one next [to its corresponding internal base] because they are the respective resorts of the eye base, and so on. 12. Furthermore, their order may be understood as that in which the reasons for consciousness' arising are defined; and it is said 'Due to eye and to visible objects eye-consciousness arises, ... due to mind and mental objects mind-consciousness arises' (M i 111). This is how the exposition should be known here as to order. >> peace, c. #67627 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:04 am Subject: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing nichiconn Thanks for all the thoughts on samsaara, Everyone. I thought you might also like this from Path of Purification - ch VII: Recollection of the Buddha: << 7. (iii) Now this wheel of the round of rebirths with its hub made of ignorance and of craving for becoming, with its spokes consisting of formations of merit and the rest, with its rim of ageing and death, which is joined to the chariot of the triple becoming by piercing it with the axle made of the origin of cankers (see M i 55), has been revolving throughout time that has no beginning. All this wheel's spokes (ara) were destroyed (hata) by him at the Place of Enlightenment, as he stood firm with the feet of energy on the ground of virtue, wielding with the hand of faith the axe of knowledge that destroys kamma - because the spokes are thus destroyed he is accomplished (arahanta) also. 8. Or alternatively, it is the beginningless round of rebirths that is called the 'Wheel of the round of rebirths'. Ignorance is its hub because it is its root. Ageing-and-death is its rim because it terminates it. The remaining ten states [of the dependent origination] are its spokes because ignorance is their root and ageing-and-death their termination. >> and just a phrase from ch XVII 281: << ...the basic state whereby there is bondage for him who grasps it, and liberation for him who lets it go... >> "Existence" as the PED says. I'd like to read what Vin II 153 says about the movable curtain / blind that can be drawn aside (PED samsarana) peace, connie #67628 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] study with friends nilovg Hi Howard, (and Larry) No. not off topic. so good to be reminded of these things when writing posts, I think for everybody here. I remember Kh Sujin saying: hearing Dhamma is good and it does not matter who speaks about it. Please share again, what a lovely series: ten minutes with the Torah. I return to you re our former correspondance before Thailand. I was mixed up with on and off list. Explained that I was taken up by my ADL in Dutch. Sorry Larry, I am so slow with Vis. But also 128 (like 127) has no Tiika, and I will refer to 128 when doing 129. This has a long tiika. I spent really whole days on the computer. Nina. Op 28-jan-2007, om 21:53 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I didn't send my post on DSG, becuase I thought it might be > slightly off-topic. #67629 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ghana nilovg Dear Scott and Andrew, Scott, you are right. I was mixed up with ga.na. Nina. Op 26-jan-2007, om 6:13 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Another word for ghana is 'compact': #67630 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Frame-by-Frame Versus Continuity egberdina Hi Howard, I agree with what you are saying. On 26/01/07, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi all - > > The Khun Sujin interpretation of Abhidhamma with regard to the "flow" > of mindstates seems to be not that of a flow but of a sequence that is > picturable as follows: o o o o o o o o o o o o o o ... . Each > packet/frame/moment/mindstate is a point-state consisting of the knowing of an object supported by > various other operations and qualities, each cetasika being complete within that > single packet. > The "continuity" interpretation would be pictured instead as > _____________ ... . In this interpretation, a mindstate at any point in time (any point > along that "line") would consist of the knowing of an object together with > the various supporting operations and qualities in effect at that time. The same > state may continue across an interval of time, with various cetasikas > increasing or decreasing in intensity along the way, and the shift from one object to > another not necessarily a sharp one. > I far prefer the continuity interpretation, because nothing ever > happens in zero time, which, IMO, is the defectiveness of the packet perspective. I believe that there is in the Canon an idea that the arising of a dhamma, it's being, and it's ceasing, can be differentiated, but I have no idea whether it is claimed that this all happens in one instantaneous moment? Kind Regards Herman #67631 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/29/07 12:47:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --------------------------- > L: "My view is that rupa is not directly known." > > H: "How would you know?????" > --------------------------- > L: Reason > > Larry > ========================== Reason, when correct, only properly deduces conclusions from premisses. The conclusions are only as good as the premisses. If the premisses are only presumed, and not known, it still jusrt comes down to a matter of belief, not knowing. With metta, Howard #67632 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/29/07 1:05:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > In a message dated 1/28/2007 7:25:52 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Hi, TG - > > In a message dated 1/28/07 7:10:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, > _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: > > >The Buddha had broken the bounds of samsara, but he was not free from the > >effects of samsara until he died. He still suffered physical pains. The > >Buddha suffered the residue of samsara. He was not completely free from > >samsara > >until death. > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > The Buddha experienced unpleasant bodily sensations. However, he did > NOT suffer from them. A buddha, living or beyond life, does not suffer. > ----------------------------------------- > > TG: I disagree. Although he did not feel grief, worry, or depression from > > his pains, I believe he did suffer. An arahat or Buddha can suffer > physically. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: The experiencing of even extremely unpleasant bodily sensations is not suffering in the Dhammic sense, by which I understand mental distress. ---------------------------------------------- > > from Digha Nikaya ... "And after eating the meal provided by Chunda the > Lord > was attacked by a severe sickness with bloody diarrhea, and with sharp > pains > as of he were about to die. But he endured all this mindfully and clearly > aware, and without complaint." > > "Having eaten Chunda's meal > He suffered a grave illness, painful, deathly..." > > > > > > > >In the case of an arahat, there does seem to be some "middle ground." But > > > >it seems to me for practical purposes, nama/rupa and samsara are > >co-generating and co-dependent. > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Samsara is the state of suffering. The second noble truth gives the > cause of dukkha, namely tanha. No tanha, no dukkha. No dukkha, no problem. > > TG: Again, I think the above from Digha Nikaya would not support the "cut > and dry" case you present. As the Buddha was susceptible to experiencing > the > residue of tanha, i.e. his continuing nama/rupa, he was susceptible of > experiencing the dukkha from that...in the form of physical pain. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I've explained above what I take to be the Dhammic sense of suffeering. Even in ordinary legalese a distinction is made between pain and suffering. But the Dhammis sense of suffering is. think, exactly what I said above, and, IMO, the Buddha was done with that upon becoming the Buddha. ------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------------------ > > > > >TG > > > ==================== > With metta, > Howard > > > Good arguments. ------------------------------------------ Howard: LOL! If I were more effective, you'd be less inclined to say so! ;-)) ------------------------------------------ > > TG > ===================== With metta, Howard #67633 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:53 am Subject: Re: compassion of Arahants jwromeijn Hallo James Thanks for your two messages to me (yahoo made a mess of the sequence) A short reaction, I have made too many posts the last weeks and I'm tired of discussions. You stated: " I believe that compassion combined with the equanimity of wisdom stops the arahant from personally "feeling" the suffering of others." That's an important point, I agree and will make two remarks: - How can we (non-arahants) use this notion? No answer needed - Compassion without equanimity is not good; it can result in sentimentalism. But also there is a danger (real a potential danger of Theravada) to have equanimity without perfecting compassion. Herman used the term too: that is a kind of autism Metta Joop #67634 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation jwromeijn Hallo Jon Jon: "I presume you regard the breath as one of several possible objects of meditation." Joop: More precisely: I use - in the beginning of my sitting meditation and as a base - the observing of the rising and falling of my belly (caused by my breathing in and out) as the object of mindfulness. Jon, you further asked: "What I was looking for was a general definition. To use James' ice cream analogy, a definition of ice cream regardless of flavour, rather than a description of a particular flavour of ice cream. Care to have a crack at it? (slang for 'give it a try?' ;-))" Joop: No, I don't think it's useful to have a definition-discussion out of the blue. The ice cream analogy is by the way a kind of aristotle definition making. I have participated in many definition discussions and the menmory on it don't make me glad. As I said to Sarah a week ago: but I want to repeat it's a pitty we cannot have a serious good organised, good structured, good moderated discussion on this theme in DSG. (No, I will not try again to start it) There must be hundreds of definitions, made by meditation-teachers and made by buddology-scholars. What is the best depends on what is the use of it. Metta Joop #67635 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:54 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Roots ken_aitch Hi Joop, ---------------------- <. . .> KH: > > Are you sure you understand what those things are before you disagree with them?" > > J: > My answer will surprise you, it is: No, I'm not sure I understand those things. I'm sure they don't help me in this period in my spiritual life. So better than saying "I don't agree with your answers" I can say: "The ideas of Abhidhamma, Foundation-variant are not relevant to me" ------------------------ I can't force you to study the Dhamma that is found in the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries. What interests some people does not interest others. Religion (belief in an eternal soul), for example, does not interest me. I know from talking to some of my friends that the things taught by the Buddha - generosity, harmlessness and wisdom - do not particularly interest them. They take the attitude, "Those things are good up to a point, but greed can be also be a good thing, cruelty can be fun, and ignorance can be bliss." That is fair enough; they are at least being honest in their way. ---------------------------------- K: > > Pannatti is not real. > > J: > That's not correct, I think, from discussions with for example Jon and Sarah I understand the idea is: there are two kind of realities: ultimate and conventional (conceptual) realities. ----------------------------------- We understand Jon and Sarah differently. Don't be confused by the use of the word 'reality.' Conventional realities are mere concepts. They should never be mistaken for ultimate realities (namas and rupas). ---------------------------------------------- <. . .> J: > I did not say that "I do not exist"; I intented to say: the idea that there exists an "I" is a dangerous illusion. The difference is my reasoning is not ontological but soteriological. The Buddha did not (in my view) made absolute statements how "things are" but tried to help in the only topic that is important: the ending of suffering. ----------------------------------------------- The path leading to the end of suffering is 'right understanding of the way things are.' An essential preliminary step is to know the difference between concepts and realities. --------------------------------- J: > That's why I say: other beings exist, of course, that 's a conventional reality but my idea that other beings exist is not dangerous for my path to awakening; it's even wholesome because it insipres me to be compassionate (only idiots have compassion for illusions) In the certainty that I have not convinced you, ---------------------------------- No matter how much you theorise about it, wrong understanding is never a good thing, and right understanding is never a bad thing. Ken H #67636 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] study with friends upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/29/07 6:13:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, (and Larry) > No. not off topic. so good to be reminded of these things when > writing posts, I think for everybody here. I remember Kh Sujin > saying: hearing Dhamma is good and it does not matter who speaks > about it. > Please share again, what a lovely series: ten minutes with the Torah. > I return to you re our former correspondance before Thailand. > I was mixed up with on and off list. Explained that I was taken up by > my ADL in Dutch. Sorry Larry, I am so slow with Vis. But also 128 > (like 127) has no Tiika, and I will refer to 128 when doing 129. This > has a long tiika. > I spent really whole days on the computer. > Nina. > ============================= Nina, thanks for suggesting I share it. I'll do so under the same subject heading that I sent to you: "Chaver and Kalyanamitta: Good Friends, from Another [the Jewish] Tradition". With metta, Howard #67637 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 28, 2007 11:59 pm Subject: Chaver & Kalyanamitta: Good Friends, from Another [the Jewish] Tradition upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and all) - Friendship: Acquire a Friend Text: There were two close friends who had been parted by war so that they lived in different kingdoms. Once one of them came to visit his friend, and because he came from the city off the king’s enemy, he was imprisoned and sentenced to be executed as a spy. No amount of pleas would save him, so he begged the king for one kindness.“Your majesty,â€? he said, “let me have just one month to return to my land and put my affairs in order so that my family will be cared for after my death. At the end of the month I will return to pay the penalty. â€?“How can I believe you will return?â€? answered the king. “What security can you offer?â€?“My friend will be my security,â€? said the man. “He will pay for my life with his if I do not return.â€?The king called in the man’s friend, and to his amazement, the friend agreed to the conditions. On the last day of the month, the sun was setting, and the man had not returned. The king ordered his friend killed in his stead. As the sword was about to descend, the man returned and quickly placed the sword on his own neck. But his friend stopped him.“ Let me die for you,â€? he pleaded.The king was deeply moved. He ordered the sword taken away and pardoned both of them.“Since there is such great love between the two of you,â€? he said, “I entreat you to let me join you as a third.â€?And from that day on they became the king’s companions. And it was in this spirit that our Sages of blessed memory said, “Get yourself a companion. â€?Legend in Beit Hamidrash, Jellinek, A., ed. (Leipzig and Vienna: Bamberger and Wahrmaan, 1938) Interpretation: This legendary tale attempts to illustrate the verse in * Pirkei Avot “Get yourself a companionâ€? (Pirkei Avot 1:6). In Pirkei Avot the verse offers advice to the student who is eager to acquire both a good teacher and a suitable study partner. The tale deals with the risks that a person will take upon oneself for a close friend.Most people will tell you that there is nothing better than to have a good friend or two who can be trusted and counted upon to assist and be there for you in time of need. People often say that they have many acquaintances, but there are few who admit to having more than one or two really good friends.The Hebrew word chaver is often used in rabbinic writings to mean a friend. But the word chaver has many other connotations as well, including colleague, comrade, associate, partner, companion and fellow. Another Hebrew word for friend is rei-ah. Interesting, the sixth of the seven wedding blessings refer to both husband and wife as rei-im ahuvim, which can be translated as “best friendsâ€? or “loving companions.â€? [Note: All the foregoing comes from the Union for Reform Judaism.]       * For your information, the Pirkei Avot ("Verses of the Fathers") is a collection of very brief commentaries on matters of ethics and self-purification by ancient rabbis, and is standardly included as part of the regular services in orthodox congregations.       BTW, do click on the link in the article. That additional material may be interesting. This topic, I think, may be of particular interest for us Buddhists, especially us on a discussion list. The notion of "chaver", especially of "good friend in the Torah" is very, very similar, I think, to that of "kalyanamitta" (or "good friend in the Dhamma"). With metta, Howard #67638 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Chaver & Kalyanamitta: Good Friends, from Another [the Jewish] Trad... upasaka_howard Hi, all - In a message dated 1/29/07 8:04:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > BTW, do click on the link in the article. ======================= I see that when my post was broadcast from Yahoo groups, the link was lost. The link, for "Pirkei Avot 1:6", is http://tmt.urj.net/archives/4jewishethics/010104.htm With metta, Howard #67639 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: elements of experience scottduncan2 Dear Herman, H: "What then should I make of your statement that people are not real?" 'People' don't perceive since 'people' is a concept. Sa~n~na perceives - it is a reality the function of which is perception. It is a cetasika which arises with each citta in every moment of consciousness. Dhammasa"nga.ni: "[4] What on that occasion is perception (sa~n~na)? The perception, the perceiving, the state of having perceived which on that occasion is born of contact with the appropriate element of representative intellection - this is the perception that there then is,"(p.7). Rather than a person who perceives, as the above makes clear, it is sa~n~na. The language suggests function with no one functioning and this, I think, is how it is to be understood. H: "That aside, do you know of the top of your head, what the relevant Pali words are for "to perceive" and "to directly know" as in MN01?" Not being a Paali scholar by any means, but having access to the Chatta Sangayana CD, in the sutta the phrase in Paali for 'perceives earth as earth' (I'm pretty sure) is: '...pathavi.m pathavito sa~njaanaati...'. The PTS PED (to be taken with a grain of salt) gives 'sa~njaanaati' to mean: 'To recognise; to perceive, know; to be aware of; (and, in a second sense,to think; to suppose)'. Maybe Nina can say how the root sa~n~na is incorporated into the verb sa~njaanaati, I don't know the nuts and bolts of that. The phrase 'directly knows earth as earth' is" '...pathavi.m pathavito abhijaanaati...' Hence, in the sutta, the word 'abhijaanaati' is found. This is given in the PED PTS as: 'To know by experience; to know fully or thouroughly; to recognise; know of; to be conscious or aware of'. What is the cetasika whose function it is to know? I think this is pa~n~na cetasika. Back to the Dhammasa"nga.ni: "[16] What on that occasion is the faculty of insight (pa~n~nindriya.m)? The insight which ther is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Doctrine, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, a 'guide', intuition,...the absence of dullness, searching for the Truth, right views - this is the wisdom that there then is." Sincerely, Scott. #67640 From: "Joop" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:06 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Roots jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > >> > No matter how much you theorise about it, wrong understanding is > never a good thing, and right understanding is never a bad thing. > > > Ken H > Hallo Ken H Thanks for giving me your view I think our discussion can be closed now Metta Joop #67641 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/29/2007 5:48:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: I've explained above what I take to be the Dhammic sense of suffeering. Even in ordinary legalese a distinction is made between pain and suffering. But the Dhammis sense of suffering is. think, exactly what I said above, and, IMO, the Buddha was done with that upon becoming the Buddha. Hi Howard Then you do agree that the Buddha experienced pain? TG #67642 From: "Ramesh Wamanrao Patil" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:28 am Subject: Buddha and the scientific approach!! rameshat27 Buddha and the scientific approach: The Buddha stressed the importance of objective observation, which is in a sense the key to the Buddhist method for acquiring knowledge. It is objective observation that yields the first of the Four Noble Truths, the truth of suffering; it is observation that verifies one's progress along the steps of the path; and Most Important:=> It is Vippassana that confirms the realization of the complete cessation of suffering. Therefore, at the beginning, in the middle, and at the end of the Buddhist path to liberation, the role of Vippassana is essential. The cessation of suffering, can be verified, because through cultivating the path, The craving and ignorance are eliminated and the supreme happiness of nibbana is attained. It is experimental process that is repeatable,in keeping with sound scientific practice: not only did the Buddha attain the end of suffering but so, too, we can see historically,did all those who followed his path to the end. #67643 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Roots egberdina Hi KenH (and Joop) , This post has smilies all through it. Honest. :-) On 25/01/07, ken_aitch wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: > Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are saying there *is* > a sentient being. And I think you are saying anatta simply means that > sentient beings lack an immortal soul. You seem to be agreeing with > James who sometimes tells us that anatta does not affect the path or > how we follow it. He says it is only at the end of the path that > anatta becomes relevant. > > In fact, anatta exists now in every conditioned dhamma. And > that is what we need to understand. > Whatever anatta implies for an understanding of reality, there is another face to anatta. And that is anatta as phobia. Just like an arachnaphobic will react in a certain way each time a spider is encountered, or a claustraphobic each time they enter a lift, an anattaphobic will, upon realising that they have acted conventionally and as though it was real, quickly recite from memory their favourite anatta mantra denying that what they perceived and interacted with is what it means to be real. This condition is prevalent amongst Abhidhamma devotees and quantum physicists, though they do not agree with each other whose pointillistic version of reality is the real one. Treatment is difficult, if not futile. Hope you got a laugh out of it :-) Cheers Herman #67644 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:33 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 5, 9. nilovg Dear friends, When we read about striving we should not think of merely striving with the exclusion of the other path-factors. One may still cling to an idea of self who strives, who exerts control over one’s cittas, although one understands in theory that realities are anattå. Some people try to separate their “meditation life” and their daily life. They believe that, for the development of the eightfold Path, it is necessary to go into seclusion first in order to suppress akusala and to induce calm. One may be used to the idea of exerting control over one’s cittas, but it should be remembered that realities arise because of their own conditions. When awareness arises of the reality appearing now, even if it is unpleasant or akusala, it is accompanied already by right effort which performs its function without an idea of self who strives. Right effort is nothing else but effort for awareness right now and it arises because of its own conditions. What would be the use of the study of the Dhamma if it would not lead to the aim which is right understanding of whatever reality appears. We are the frequent victims of our own accumulations so long as we are not arahats yet. But realizing this is already a beginning of a cure, because we see that akusala is not self, that it is a conditioned nåma. Right understanding will finally lead to the elimination of akusala. I think we should not become impatient or disheartened by lack of sati, lack of kusala. Gradually conditions can be built up for the growth of paññå. Not by volitional control. Not by trying to make particular realities arise, special objects of awareness, or doing special exercises, instead of being aware naturally of realities which arise because of their own conditions. It does not matter if the reality which arises is a hindrance, it can be known as it is and then there is kusala citta, no hindrance. When we have more understanding of paramattha dhammas we can read the suttas with more understanding. We read about striving and self- control, but we shall understand the deep meaning of what is said: that these are sobhana cetasikas arising because of conditions. The teachings can be most helpful in reminding us to cling less to an idea of self who can develop insight. We do not develop understanding, it develops. ******* Nina. #67645 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Just joined sarahprocter... Hi Bill Z, When I replied about the reading, I had meant to also make a brief comment on what you wrote here: --- Bill wrote: > I will probably be somewhat quiet here at first. I plan on reading > through > some of the files, and past archives to get a feel for the type of > discussions the have occurred already. I don't want to be a burden > asking > questions that have already be covered or interrupt the flow of current > discussions. I just thought it would be rude of me to join and not say > hello. :) ... S: You're very considerate, but please don't ever consider it any kind of 'burden' to ask questions, interrupt or butt into any discussions. It's what we all do all the time :). Lots of topics come up repeatedly, but always with a slightly different focus or slant, depending on who's talking. I also understand if any newcomers prefer to 'listen in' for a while. Thank you again for letting us know of your presence and look f/w to talking more whenever. Metta, Sarah ======= #67646 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:44 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Ch 22, 10 nilovg Dear friends, Jhåna is called in the teachings an ``abiding in ease, here, now'' (for example, in the ``Discourse on Expunging'', Middle Length Sayings I, no. 8). Those who have become advanced in the development of calm can have many jhånacittas in succession, since they have cultivated conditions for this. They truly are ``abiding in ease, here, now''. However, the Buddha would point out that ``abiding in ease'' is not the same as ``expunging'' (eradication). We read in the Discourse on Expunging that the Buddha said to Cunda with regard to the monk who could attain rúpa-jhåna: The situation occurs, Cunda, when a monk here, aloof from pleasures of the senses, aloof from unskilled states of mind, may enter on and abide in the first jhåna which is accompanied by initial thought (vitakka) and discursive thought (vicåra), is born of aloofness, and is rapturous and joyful. It may occur to him: ``I fare along by expunging''. But these, Cunda, are not called expungings in the discipline for an ariyan. These are called ``abidings in ease, here, now'' in the discipline for an ariyan. The Buddha said the same with regard to the attainment of the other stages of rúpa-jhåna. With regard the monk who could attain arúpa- jhåna, he said: ... It may occur to him: ``I fare along by expunging''. But these, Cunda, are not called ``expungings'' in the discipline for an ariyan; these are called ``abidings that are peaceful'' in the discipline for an ariyan... Those who have accumulated great skill for jhåna and have developed vipassanå can attain enlightenment with lokuttara jhånacitta, that is, lokuttara citta accompanied by jhåna-factors of one of the different stages of jhåna, according to their accumulations. Instead of a meditation subject of samatha, nibbåna is the object which is experienced with absorption by the lokuttara jhånacitta. In the process during which enlightenment is attained the magga-citta (path- consciousness, lokuttara kusala citta) is immediately followed by the phala-citta (fruition-consciousness, the result of the magga-citta). When the phala-cittas have fallen away that process of cittas is over. The magga-citta of that stage of enlightenment cannot arise again, but for those who have developed jhåna and attained enlightenment with lokuttara jhånacitta that is accompanied by jhaana- factors of the stages of jhaana, the phala-citta can arise again, even many times in life, and it experiences nibbåna. ********** Nina. #67647 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 12:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] compassion of Arahants ken_aitch Hi Howard, --------- > > > > I don't think anyone anywhere has ever denied that the Buddha and his > > arahants had compassion. Or am I missing something? > > > > Ken H > > > ======================= > Two days ago Joop had written the following to Herman: > > "My central topic was not "path" but "compassion" > You remember a week or so ago the DSG-dicussion about laughing and > crying, one of the aspect was that arahants don't laugh (they can > smile) or cry. > The arguments for that statement braught me to the conclusion: > arahants don't have compassion. > > But the Buddha did have compassion ! > Many on DSG, many Theravadins do have being an arahant as (far) > ideal; but I have the Buddha as ideal." > > Is Joop's sentence "The arguments for that statement braught me to the > conclusion: arahants don't have compassion" not > a denial of arahants having compassion? ----------------- Oh yes, thanks! Some hours (or days) behind everyone else, I am finally seeing the light. :-) I had thought it was all a silly misunderstanding, and that none of us had claimed that arahants lacked compassion. But now I see that Joop was introducing the Mahayana nonsense about selfish arahants - as compared to unselfish, compassionate Buddhas. Thanks for setting me straight. Ken H #67648 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (1) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Scott, Mike, Connie & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > .... > > S: As I said above, it's always an understanding of the > > anicca/dukkha/anatta *of dhammas* currently appearing. <...> Howard: > I've thought a bit more about this material, and I've decided > that I > was considering it wrongly. As I think about it, what happened to this > bhikkhuni was exactly what happened to many seasoned practitioners upon > hearing a > certain word of Dhamma, a "turning phrase" as the Zen folks call it. > Pa~n~natti > can serve as a trigger for the arising of a wisdom that is a deep, > transformative insight into the general truth of impermanence (or of > dukkha, or of anatta). > The wisdom induced was a profound knowing that any and every reality > underlying an appearance of solidity is, in fact, evanescent, without > stability, and > ungraspable. The burning food was but a trigger for a ready mind to be > turned > topsy-turvy, a breeze that shook the ripe fruit off the tree. ... S: (Like others), I think that what your wrote here was good and very much as I understand the text. As we know, by natural decisive-support condition, anything (here the burning curry)can be a condition for insight if all the right factors are in place. Scott, many thanks for the Pali and help with terms, given with Pruitt's translation. Very useful. With regard to your other note to Mike, I don't see any suggestion of kasina or jhana involved. I also don't see it as a matter of bringing an 'event to mind over and over' - I think it's all much more natural without any special recollecting and so on. Just 'my take', of course! It's very interesting to see the different contributions and a good team-effort I think. Connie, many thanks for the latest Sister(3) with helpful notes. I need to digest it first. Guys, do you have anything to add to it meanwhile? Metta, Sarah ======= #67649 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: elements of experience egberdina Thanks Scott, On 30/01/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Herman, > > H: "What then should I make of your statement that people are not real?" > > 'People' don't perceive since 'people' is a concept. Sa~n~na > perceives - it is a reality the function of which is perception. It > is a cetasika which arises with each citta in every moment of > consciousness. > Ahh, perception perceives, of course :-) Thanks for the other material too. Kind Regards Herman #67650 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] whatever sarahprocter... Dear Joop, --- Joop wrote: > Sarah, > > Do you know that you have not yet responded on this message? ... S: Oops! Let's see: J:> > Every competent meditation teachers realizes that the objects of > > vipassanå and samatha are different. > > What I understood but perhaps I'm not competent: object of > vipassana > > is a ultimate reality (I'm not so happy with the term'object' as if > > one choses it; it happens) .... S: Yes. As you suggest, it's not chosen but has to be whatever nama or rupa is appearing at the present moment. It is appearing by virtue of being the object of the present cittas. ... J:>> is and STARTING-object of samatha is a > > conceptual reality. .... S: I don't know why you stress 'STARTING-object'. (Except for a couple of exceptions concerning objects of arupa jhanas), the object in the development of samatha is ALWAYS a concept. Metta, Sarah p.s You asked a question about Nina's aim which I've left because you can ask her directly now she's back. I referred to her post because I thought it was relevant to the discussion, that was all. =============================== #67651 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Roots egberdina Hi KenH, > > The path leading to the end of suffering is 'right understanding of > the way things are.' An essential preliminary step is to know the > difference between concepts and realities. > I think there is room to see in the way right understanding is often used, that what is meant is right explanation / right theory of causality. And I take the notion of right theory with a kilo of salt, especially when it comes to the paramattha dhamma theory. Before one can start to explain things, one must have observed things. And one must be sure that what is observed is actually observed, and not the result of a filling-in-the-blanks exercise, an explanation. And even more importantly, one must be sure that the opposite has not occured, a mental separating of what appears together, a mental deconstruction. Take the seeing of people, and the seeing of colours. Now both are real events. We go to McDonalds for breakfast, and speak to the lovely lassie on the other side of the counter, we hand over our cash, we get a tray of food, we look for a table, we eat, we look at others, we read the paper. It would be a particularly unworthy denial to sit and deconstruct those events, at a later point, and deny that this was experienced, but there was only sound and colour and feelings etc. Because this was not experienced. And likewise, if there are moments of seeing colour, hearing sound etc etc if would be a particularly dishonest act to say that you were seeing people as they really are. No, sound is sound, colour is colour, and people are people. That people are people when seen as people is borne out by your behaviour to them, when you see them. You talk to them, you listen to what they say to you, you read their body language, and reply to them. You avoid them when you are walking in a crowd of them, you wear clothes in their presence etc etc On the other hand, on seeing colour, hearing sound, that is simply the mode of consciousness that is in effect, and there is no suggestion that one mode of consciousness is more or less ultimate over another. It is simply true that all consciousness takes a point of view on an object, any object always being other than the consciousness, and there is never an ultimate point of view, or a lack of a point of view. Now, unless a person observes paramattha dhammas, they should not speak as though they are observing them. Because if they do (why would a person speak if only surrounded by paramattha dhammas?), they are in denial of what they are experiencing, and are mindless as to the reality of what is happening. If knowing the difference between concepts and realities amounts to remembering what has been learnt, that is an exercise in mindlessness. > No matter how much you theorise about it, wrong understanding is never > a good thing, and right understanding is never a bad thing. > I do not believe, as I wrote in the beginning, in the value of right theory/explanantion. What I believe in is the value of being honest. If I sit in a social situation, and am aware of people, that is the reality of what is happening. I can be aware that I am explaining things, when I impute motivation to people, reasons as to why they do things, and that is a valuable insight. Likewise, if in this situation, I can become aware that I am thinking that I shouldn't be seeing people, but paramattha dhammas. Either way, I am mindful of what is happening, and I am honest. If on the other hand, I speak about things I do not see, like paramattha dhammas, accumulations, kusala, kamma, or proximate conditon XYZ, and do not see that I am talking about explanations and not things I am seeing, then I am dishonest and mindless. Kind Regards Herman #67652 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/29/07 1:12:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Then you do agree that the Buddha experienced pain? > > TG > =================== Of course! :-) With metta, Howard #67653 From: "m. nease" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ghana m_nease Hi Sarah and All, > S: I agree that it is on account of not 'resolving the compact', not > understanding dhammas as elements that the various vipallasa arise > -especially those connected with ditthi (wrong views). This makes sense to me too, except why the emphasis on di.t.thi? Isn't this failure to resolve (or analyze) equally important to sa~n~navipallaasa e.g., as in taking the unpleasant for pleasant, impermanent for permanent etc.? And isn't this far more common than di.t.thivipallaasa? mike #67654 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:55 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (5) - correction nichiconn Sorry, "Guys" - -- The last six in the section of single verses are grouped together under a single heading: -- should've read more along the lines of the 'next six in this section' or 'last six in this (first) section'. There are still 8 single verses after this group. peace, c. #67655 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:55 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (6) nichiconn Reader, Carolyn's book (again): http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html VI -- Dhiiraa. Come, O Dhiiraa, reach up and touch the goal Where all distractions cease, where sense is stilled, Where dwelleth bliss; win thou Nibbana, win That sure Salvation *92 which hath no beyond. (6) ***** *92 Yogakkhema, a term adapted from secular use, therein meaning well-being or security in possession. ======= Pruitt: 6. "Dhiire nirodha.m phusehi, sa~n~naavuupasama.m sukha.m; aaraadhayaahi nibbaana.m, yogakkhemamanuttara.m. 6. Dhiiraa, attain cessation, the stilling of evil notions, happiness. Gain quenching, unsurpassed rest from exertion. 6. Attain (phusehi) cessation means: attain (phussa), obtain cessation of the defilements. The stilling of evil notions, happiness; gain (aaraadhayaahi) quenching means: gain (aaraadhehi) quenching, absolute happiness, characterized by the calming of the evil perceptions beginning with sensual thoughts. connie: you're it. ::::::::::::::::: #67656 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:14 pm Subject: Re: toodles! ksheri3 Good Day connie, > why bother running off after name callers to see where that leads? colette: NAME & FORM, okay, I admit that this all happened a long time prior to my arival. In fact one of the first things I began questioning when I lived in Hollyweird, 1982, was the potential for the unquestionably obscure names for the sun & moon. My point, then, was, that the people that labeled the sun as being the sun might've had two post-it notes or stickers, LABELS, to use for determining the NAMES of these two objects. How can I be sure that she or he didn't wake up that morning all covered in the remains of the night before's orgy, or maybe just woke up like my roommates do everyday, looking for a fight, thus MISS LABELLING the sun as the moon and the moon as the sun or visa versa? These were decisions made without my input, without my feelings being thought of, without any recognition of MY BEING whatsoever, THEREFORE, how dare they accuse me of anything i.e. Eric Clapton's version of "Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself"? Name calling in my case is a necessity since it then is redily identifiable in any dictionary and/or encyclopedia. For instance G.W.Bush and Osama Bin Laden are not found in the Dictionary and/or Encyclopedia but if I look under the names that they were given at birth then I will find clear definitions, for instance a MEGLAMANIAC. As frugal as I am forced to be in my poverty, then I cannot waste anything. I kindof have a lot in common with those cannabals out there in the Indonesian area since I will not throw it away. One of the EFFECTS from applying NAME CALLING, as you put it, is that it has an effect on the body of others since I call a spade a spade and do not run around trying to make an employer happy or make a spouse happy, I call 'em like I see 'em baby, and since I do not use rose colored glasses I flat out lay my cards on the table i.e. "Those cards can bring you money so you hide them when you're able. In the land of milk and honey you must put them on the table." Like my bullets? > are > you on assignment or ?? colette: GIVE THAT GIRL A CIGAR. Certainly, I've been trying to figure out what happened to me on April 10 or 11, 1978, when I rolled daddies brand new Caddy, end over end three times, was thrown so 350 feet from the vehicle, landed on my head, died, the EMT's brought me back, and I've lived with this utter frustration figuring out just what the hell it was I went through. So, Yes it is an assigment. Since I have no chance of employment in this state of united, the ILL state of being united, that UNITED STATE of ILLinois. There are certainly others out there that do not want the status quo to change since they have a position at the top of the status quo. Consequently, I tend to disrupt the apple cart. Or is it that thing Monty Python was saying "Bring out your dead"? > let's hear more about the different views you > dis/agree with or wonder about then. colette: Splendid idea you've thrown out on the table. Way back in the mid-70s Rare Earth was performing at the College of DuPage cafeteria and they needed some extra help. Since I lived a few blocks away I was happy to offer my time. I'm sure you can remember those live versions of I JUST WANT TO CELEBRATE, ANOTHER DAY OF LIVIN' or that drum solo in I'M LOSING YOU, et al. Why don't we shine that spotlight on some of your thoughts and or views. isn't stated: "Let the midnight special shine it's light me." Since you will be dishing it up and I will have to stomach it, I guess, then, we're all waiting for you to serve and/or serve us. ;-) toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > hi colette, > why bother running off after name callers to see where that leads? are > you on assignment or ?? let's hear more about the different views you > dis/agree with or wonder about then. > peace, > connie > #67657 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wissenschaftslehre? Conditions. ksheri3 Dear Nina, I just read this, thanx for the compliments. > It > does not consist of dry summings up, it is about life. colette: That was close, but to the untrained eye they will not see the problems you've manifested for the student that tries to understand you. On one level it is a rich a magnificent document to read since it has, within it's gravity, such a wide range of applications, but before most people can even get to that level they've gotta go through that UGLY, DRY AS DUST, side of it as being nothing more than dry summings up. They've gotta spend time in/with it. It is about life, hell no? It's about living, it's a active, dynamic, schematic of the human organism. Actually the first part of the reply I have should be that it's no about "life" it's about your life, the reader. It examines the inside from an outside perspective. Doesn't that prick your interest into HOW'D THEY DO THAT? thanx for the praise. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > > Dear Colette, > > op 17-06-2006 20:38 schreef colette op ksheri3@...: > > I laughed continuously upon getting to page six (on my printout it > starts: > > "or cry, when we are attached or worried, there are conditions for > such moments. The Paiihana helps us to understand the deep underlying > motives for our behaviour and..." > > I still laugh, mostly smile though, when I pick this material up. > _______ > N: You got the meaning, you understand the human side of the Abhidhamma. It > does not consist of dry summings up, it is about life. I am glad you > understand this. > Nina. #67658 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:49 pm Subject: Re: Warm Welcomes from/to CRAZY WISODOM ksheri3 Good Day Joop, Sorry for what? Too much for you, do you mean this in the sense of K.Marx & J. Engle's Communist Manifesto: "IMMERSION OF THE WORKER"? We may ask our Indonesian friends concerning their recent experience with water, a Tsunami and see if Immersion of the worker is similar or equal to eachother. Our Hindu friends can certainly dictate that a stratified society is a requirement, but then that leads us all around the globe to find other societies that mimick, copy, impersonate, the Hindu society, in the actions (actions are conscious recognitions of a state of "being" [see your philosophers on the that one] and automatically place a value on something that we buddhists are determinded to transcend since those things are of no value, since IT'S NOTHING MORE THAN AN ILLUSION [illusions are mirages, no, illusions, mirages, are similar to dreams, all of which are hallucinations]) I fail to recognize your appology but from the pair of shoes I'm standing in (my point of view) I will give you room to move about horizontally as you reposition your self. thanx for replying. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Joop" wrote: <...> > Hallo Colette > > I'm sorry this is really to much for me. > > Metta > > Joop > #67659 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:41 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (7) nichiconn connie: Given the name/spelling change below, I just note that Paliwords gives 'wise' r/t 'brave' for dhiira. PED, ditto; and under viira lists " Sn 44, 165 (not dhira), 642, 1096, 1102 ". I don't know what " (not dhira) " there is supposed to mean. Heroic wisdom sounds good to me and we are, after all, talking about Legendary Creatures here. RD: VII -- Another Sister Dhiiraa. Dhiiraa, brave *93 Sister! who hath valiantly Thy faculties in noblest culture trained, Bear to this end thy last incarnate frame, For thou hast conquered Maara and his host. (7) ***** *93 Her name means 'brave,' 'heroic.' ===== PRUITT: 7. "Viiraa viirehi dhammehi, bhikkhunii bhaavitindriyaa; dhaareti antima.m deha.m, jetvaa maara.m savaahana.m. 7. You are Viiraa because of your heroic (viira) mental states. You are a bhikkhunii with developed faculties. Bear your last body, having conquered Maara and his mount. 7. You are Viiraa because of your heroic (virehi) mental states means: because of energetic effor (viriya-padhaanata), the states of the noble paths are heroic (viira) and overflowing with radiance (teja); with developed faculties means: the faculties beginning with matured faith. The bhikkhunii Viiraa bears her last body having no new birth in the future, having conquered the Maara of defilement and his mount through [her conquering of] sensual desire. She indicates herself as though dealing with another person. ====== connie: you're it! #67660 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 10:56 am Subject: Abhidhamma ion Daily lIfe, Ch 22, no 9.(abhi~n~naa) nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha explained more about mind-reading, and then he said: ``And what, bråhmin, is the marvel of teaching? In this case a certain one teaches thus: `Reason thus, not thus. Apply your mind thus, not thus. Abandon this state, acquire that state and abide therein.' This, bråhmin, is called `the marvel of teaching'. So these are the three marvels. Now of these three marvels, which appeals to you as the more wonderful and excellent?'' ``Of these marvels, Master Gotama, the marvel of more-power... seems to me to be of the nature of an illusion. Then again as to the marvel of thought-reading... this also, master Gotama, seems to me of the nature of an illusion. But as to the marvel of teaching... of these three marvels this one appeals to me as the more wonderful and excellent.'' Sangårava then asked the Buddha whether he possessed all three marvels and the Buddha told him that he did. Sangårava also asked whether any other monk possessed them and the Buddha answered: ``Yes, indeed, bråhmin. The monks possessed of these three marvellous powers are not just one or two or three, four, or five hundred, but much more than that in number.'' Sangårava then expressed his confidence in taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, and he asked to be accepted as a lay-follower. In the Buddha's time many monks had cultivated conditions for ``marvellous powers''. The greatest ``marvel'' of these, however, is the ``marvel of teaching'' since it can lead to the eradication of all defilements, to the end of all sorrow. For those who have accumulations for jhåna there are many benefits since jhåna is kusala kamma of a high degree. One of the benefits is a happy rebirth, even for those who can attain only ``access- concentration'' or upacåra samådhi (Vis. XI, 123). However, even rebirth in a happy plane of existence is dukkha, because life in a happy plane may be followed by rebirth in an unhappy plane. Therefore, no birth at all is to be preferred to any kind of rebirth. This can be realized only by developing the wisdom which eradicates defilements. ****** Nina. #67661 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Howard (and Scott), > > Howard: > > The Buddha experienced unpleasant bodily sensations. However, he did > > NOT suffer from them. A buddha, living or beyond life, does not suffer. > > ----------------------------------------- To me, the distinction between an un/pleasant bodily sensation and an un/pleasant mental sensation is tenuous. I see it less as a useful or valid description of a state of affairs, but more as the consequence of a particular model of the way things work. For one, it requires a mind/body dualism of sorts, and as Scott might well say, it is not the body or the mind that experiences, experience experiences. Kind Regards Herman #67662 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Howard, > I've explained above what I take to be the Dhammic sense of > suffeering. Even in ordinary legalese a distinction is made between pain and suffering. > But the Dhammis sense of suffering is. think, exactly what I said above, and, > IMO, the Buddha was done with that upon becoming the Buddha. > ------------------------------------------------ I think there is definitely a sense in the Canon in which dukkha describes all phenomena, not just certain ones. In that sense dukkha is the condition of being. It is not only certain qualities of phenomena that determine whether there is dukkha, it is dukkha that there are phenomena. All sentience in that sense is the "suffering" of consciousness. The ending of suffering is not the end of certain qualities, it is the ending of all qualities. That's the significance of dukkha as one the tilakkhana to me, anyway. Kind Regards Herman #67663 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] elements of experience lbidd2 Hi Howard, -------------------------------- L: "My view is that rupa is not directly known." H: "How would you know?????" L: "Reason" H: "Reason, when correct, only properly deduces conclusions from premisses. The conclusions are only as good as the premisses. If the premisses are only presumed, and not known, it still just comes down to a matter of belief, not knowing." ---------------------------- L: Tell that to your doctor! ;-)) I basically agree that we don't really know anything about materiality. Such is life. I think any view, even insight knowledge, is a mix of experience and reason. And that mix has come up with some pretty remarkable engineering, as well as deliverance. Larry ps: I have come to think that the concept of 'direct knowledge of an object of consciousness' is misconceived. There's no such thing. This is a poor translation of abhi~n~naa, which I think might be a contraction of abhi ~naa.na ('higher knowledge' my trans.). Maybe Nina could say something about it. In any case it isn't a special, somehow unobstructed, relationship to an object of consciousness. Although some sort of resolution of the compact could be involved. All consciousnesses have direct relationships to the object of consciousness. L. #67664 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] study with friends lbidd2 Hi Nina, N: "Sorry Larry, I am so slow with Vis. But also 128 (like 127) has no Tiika, and I will refer to 128 when doing 129. This has a long tiika." L: I didn't think you were going to write anything until we got to 129, so there's no rush. Nice to have you back. Larry #67665 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:37 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Roots ken_aitch Hi Herman, --------------- <. . .> H: > And I take the notion of right theory with a kilo of salt, --------------- What an interesting expression! How much weight does that mean you are giving it? Quite a little bit? :-) ---------------------- H: > especially when it comes to the paramattha dhamma theory. Before one can start to explain things, one must have observed things. ---------------------- Forgive the "pedantic lecture" Herman, but should you and I be explaining things? Isn't that the role of a Buddha? Surely, our role is to hear, consider and apply the Buddha's explanation. (?) I am snipping the rest of your post; I think you are saying that no explanation of reality is more right than any other. If that were the case there would be no point in anything. Sorry if I have misunderstood. Ken H #67666 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:55 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 5, 9. buddhatrue Hi Nina, Your descriptions of Right Effort really sound like you are trying to neutralize any type of effort at all. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > When we read about striving we should not think of merely striving > with the exclusion of the other path-factors. James: Well, of course. Doesn't this go without saying? What would one be striving for anyway? One has to strive for something. One may still cling to > an idea of self who strives, who exerts control over one's cittas, > although one understands in theory that realities are anattå. James: Right Effort is not clinging to the idea of self. Some > people try to separate their "meditation life" and their daily life. James: What is a 'meditation life'? > They believe that, for the development of the eightfold Path, it is > necessary to go into seclusion first in order to suppress akusala and > to induce calm. One may be used to the idea of exerting control over > one's cittas, but it should be remembered that realities arise > because of their own conditions. When awareness arises of the reality > appearing now, even if it is unpleasant or akusala, it is accompanied > already by right effort which performs its function without an idea > of self who strives. James: This is not the definition of Right Effort as taught by the Buddha. In essence, you are saying that there is no Right Effort- Right Effort is no effort. Right effort is nothing else but effort for > awareness right now and it arises because of its own conditions. James: Again, this is not the definition of Right Effort as taught by the Buddha. There are Four Right Exertions and none of them are 'just accept what arises now'. What > would be the use of the study of the Dhamma if it would not lead to > the aim which is right understanding of whatever reality appears. We > are the frequent victims of our own accumulations so long as we are > not arahats yet. But realizing this is already a beginning of a cure, > because we see that akusala is not self, that it is a conditioned > nåma. Right understanding will finally lead to the elimination of > akusala. > I think we should not become impatient or disheartened by lack of > sati, lack of kusala. James: Of course we should!! The human birth is a precious opportunity which shouldn't be whittled away. And suffering is all around us- the world is ablaze with suffering! And you say we should just 'take it easy'. HA! Gradually conditions can be built up for the > growth of paññå. Not by volitional control. Not by trying to make > particular realities arise, special objects of awareness, or doing > special exercises, instead of being aware naturally of realities > which arise because of their own conditions. James: Utter and complete nonsense! There is nothing "natural" about the Buddha's Path! It goes against the stream. It does not matter if > the reality which arises is a hindrance, it can be known as it is and > then there is kusala citta, no hindrance. James: Well, this is true, but it requires Right Effort. > When we have more understanding of paramattha dhammas we can read the > suttas with more understanding. We read about striving and self- > control, but we shall understand the deep meaning of what is said: > that these are sobhana cetasikas arising because of conditions. The > teachings can be most helpful in reminding us to cling less to an > idea of self who can develop insight. We do not develop > understanding, it develops. James: Nina, I think you should read this again and again, because you are really confused about Right Effort: "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." > ******* > Nina. Metta, James #67667 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:17 pm Subject: Right Effort buddhatrue For Nina and All: "Be rigorously mindful," Sunlun Gu-Kyaung Sayadaw said. He emphasized rigorousness as an essential element because he understood the yogi. The yogi is much inclined to sit loosely and to meditate in a relaxed, leisurely way. He tends to be reflective and considerate. Reflective is in the sense of reflecting and thinking about the task to be done rather than doing it. Considerate is in the sense of sympathizing with himself, taking great care to see that he is neither exerted nor hurt. The yogi has a great love for himself and therefore prefers to let his thoughts run away with him, to drift rather than to pull himself together. To pull himself together needs exertion and that is anathema to the yogi. That is why when he is told to breathe harder, he is ready to quote chapter and verse to prove that he does not need to exert himself. Perhaps he takes a few lines from the Vimutti-magga, a discourse on the `Path to liberation', and says: "The yogi should not essay too strenuously. If he attempts too strenuously, he will become restless." This statement is true. The yogi who strives too strenuously will become restless. But why does he become restless? It is because instead of being mindful of touch or sensation, the yogi has his mind on the effort he is making. The effort should not be allowed to draw the attention away from the object of meditation. To keep the attention on the object and yet to generate effort, the yogi should first make sure that the attention is fixed on the object. When the object has been grasped with full awareness, and this awareness guarded with mindfulness, the yogi should step up the effort. When he proceeds in this manner, he will find that the generated effort serves to fix the attention more on the object instead of distracting it away onto the effort itself. Furthermore, a greater intentness of the mind has been developed by the increased effort. The full text of the above quotation from the Vimutti-magga in fact reads thus: "He, the yogi, should be mindful and should not let the mind be distracted. He should not essay too strenuously nor too laxly. If he essays too laxly, he will fall into rigidity and torpor. If he essays too strenuously, he will become restless." This means then, that the effort should be just enough for the purpose of mindfulness and knowledge. But how much is enough? I think it was William Blake who said this: "One never knows what is enough until one knows what is more than enough." A measure of what is enough may perhaps be supplied by the words of Lord Buddha when he spoke on how a monk should endeavour. "Monks, if his turban or hair were on fire, he would make an intense desire, effort, endeavour, exertion, struggle, mindfulness and attentiveness to extinguish the fire. So also, an intense desire, effort, endeavour, exertion, struggle, mindfulness and attentiveness is to be made by him so as to give up every evil and wrong state." Because he knew how much effort was required, because he was familiar with the propensity to slackness on the part of the yogi, the Sunlun Gu-Kyaung Sayadaw instructed: "Be rigorously mindful." To be mindful rigorously is to mobilize all of one's resources and to grasp the processes as they are, without thinking or reflecting. Rigourousness calls forth the element of viriya, effort. It is samma vayamo, right effort, which is one component of the Noble Eightfold Path. Sunlun Gu-Kyaung Sayadaw instructed us : "Be rigorously mindful of the awareness of touch." We should be rigorously, ardently, intensively mindful. "Do not rest when tired, scratch when itched, nor shift when cramped." We should keep our bodies and minds absolutely still and strive till the end. "The uncomfortable truly is the norm; the comfortable will set us all adrift on the currents of samsara." We should endeavour to study unpleasant sensation in depth; only he who has tackled and overcome sensation fully well will see processes as they are. We should generate a willing suspension of disbelief, exert that extra ounce of effort, and be rigorously mindful. Have faith (saddha), perseverance (viriya) and mindfulness (sati) to purify ourselves, to overcome pain and grief, to reach the right path, to win Nibbana. http://www.sunlun.com/yogivipa.html#YOGIVIPASSANA Metta, James #67668 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/29/07 6:57:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Scott), > > >>Howard: > >>The Buddha experienced unpleasant bodily sensations. However, he did > >>NOT suffer from them. A buddha, living or beyond life, does not suffer. > >>----------------------------------------- > > To me, the distinction between an un/pleasant bodily sensation and an > un/pleasant mental sensation is tenuous. I see it less as a useful or > valid description of a state of affairs, but more as the consequence > of a particular model of the way things work. > > For one, it requires a mind/body dualism of sorts, and as Scott might > well say, it is not the body or the mind that experiences, experience > experiences. > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > ========================== You and I are low on the spiritual scale, Herman (;-), and, so, for us, finding something unpleasant and not liking it (wanting it to "go away") seem to be one and the same. But I don't think they actually are the same. With metta, Howard #67669 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ghana egberdina Hi Connie, Sorry to be a pain. But the good doctor's book is about Abhidhamma, and introducing pronouns where they don't belong isn't going to make things any clearer. > > You're probably more familiar with Jayasuriya's "Densities or crowdings > (Ghana)" as something like 'compactness' or 'obstructions' or > ditthi-ganthi - that seemingly impenetrable jungle of view, or possibly > even the infamous cloud or veil of ignorance, which we could call > abhaghana. What it does is keep us What is this us? crowding onto the executioner's block > (ganthika) as we What is this we? wrongly grasp or assume (ga.nhati / gahana) things and > acts as a bar (ga.n.di) or thick, impervious obstruction (also gahana) > against our unravelling the knot (ga.n.thi) holding us there, as indicated > by the suffix gha (= killing, destroying). This perception of compactness > is abandoned by insight into destruction... khayaanupassanaa. > Otherwise, full marks :-) KInd Regards Herman #67670 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/29/07 7:11:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > I think there is definitely a sense in the Canon in which dukkha > describes all phenomena, not just certain ones. In that sense dukkha > is the condition of being. It is not only certain qualities of > phenomena that determine whether there is dukkha, it is dukkha that > there are phenomena. All sentience in that sense is the "suffering" of > consciousness. The ending of suffering is not the end of certain > qualities, it is the ending of all qualities. > > That's the significance of dukkha as one the tilakkhana to me, anyway. > ====================== I've discussed the word 'dukkha' before, Herman. I believe it has several senses. One of them, the generic, non-Dhammic, one is "pain" or "painful". There are two Dhammic senses, as I see it. One of these is as a noun meaning "suffering" or "distress" or "mental pain". It does not include unpleasant feeling. Dukkha in the Dhammic sense is not a type of vedana. The other Dhammic sense is as an adjective meaning "unsatisfactory" or "unsatisfying" or "not a source of satisfaction". It is this last sense that applies to all conditioned dhammas, and to which you were referring above. No conditioned dhamma is a source of genuine satisfaction, not even the most pleasant. Satisfaction comes only from relinquishment, for only relinquishment is compatible with what is insubstantial, ungraspable, impermanent, and not-self. Moreover, craving and attachment, the opposite(s) of relinquishment, lead to dukkha in the first Dhammic sense. With metta, Howard #67672 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:37 pm Subject: Toodles! nichiconn Good Evening, Miss Labelled colette! I may have mistaken the directions thrown off the cuff of your Thera-Sarvasta cloak from the Lost and Found (#63789). I hope you've got the Yogacara and Madhyamaka things ironed out. In anticipation of the successful conclusion, in spades, of your upsetting assignment, perhaps there'll be moon pies by the apple cart at your celebration dinner. Meanwhile, as I've been indulging in a bit of tacky, tasteless fare myself, let's have some light tidbits from Buddhaghosa. PPn xiii, 19: << Among these beings with recollection of past life, the sectarians' vision of past life seems like the light of a glow-worm, that of ordinary disciples like the light of a candle, that of the Chief Disciples like the light of the Morning Star, that of the Pacceka Buddhas like the light of the Moon, and that of Buddhas like the glorious Autumn Sun's disk with its thousand rays. >> Then a great course of seven suns leading up to the once luminous, fed-on-joy beings of the lovely Agga~n~na Sutta being "frigtened when they see the darkness." PPn xiii: << 45: Then in order to remove their fears and give them courage, the sun's disk apears full fifty leagues across. They are delighted to see it, thinking 'We have light', and they say 'It has appeared in order to alay our fears and give us courage (suurabhaava), so let it be called "Sun (suriya)"'. So they give it the name 'Sun (suriya)'. Now when the sun has given light for a day, it sets. Then they are frightened again, thinking 'We hav lost the light we had', and they think 'How good if we had another light!' [418] 46. As if knowing their thought, the moon's disk appears, forty-nine leagues across. On seeing it they are still more delighted, and they say 'It has appeared, seeming as if it knew our desire (chanda), so let it be called "Moon (canda)"'. So, they gave it the name 'Moon (canda)'. >> Seems we've been united in ill annoyance for ever, what? Still, according to our friends at PED, "In enumerations of heavenly bodies or divine beings Canda always precedes Suriya (the Sun)". A good omen, then... sharing the candidness, that frank incense. peace, connie #67673 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > > I've explained above what I take to be the Dhammic sense of > > suffeering. Even in ordinary legalese a distinction is made between pain and suffering. > > But the Dhammis sense of suffering is. think, exactly what I said above, and, > > IMO, the Buddha was done with that upon becoming the Buddha. > > ------------------------------------------------ > > I think there is definitely a sense in the Canon in which dukkha > describes all phenomena, not just certain ones. _________ Dear Herman and Howard, Grouped Sayings - Saṃyutta Nikāya 23:15 III [196.1] Suffering - Dukkha At Savatthi. While once seated, the Venerable Radha asked the Blessed One: Venerable Sir, one says: Suffering!! What, Venerable Sir, is suffering? Form, Radha, is suffering, feeling is suffering, perception is suffering, mental constructions are suffering, consciousness is suffering... [i.e. all the khandas are dukkha. ] Robert #67674 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing scottduncan2 Oh-oh, being paraphrased... H: "For one, it requires a mind/body dualism of sorts, and as Scott might well say, it is not the body or the mind that experiences, experience experiences." Might I then possibly say that 'experience' is naama? S. #67675 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:17 pm Subject: Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation philofillet HI Sarah > S: Enjoying the dialogue between Phil '05 & '07:-) The great thing about Phil '05 is how submissive he is. > > How does Phil '07 read the many Anguttara suttas which stress the > importance of right view as leader and the danger of following the wrong > path? (No need to answer. Here's one): Ph: I looked in my AN anthology, the one B.Bodhi did updating some of N. Thera's translations. The one you've quoted is not in there. (Which doesn't mean it's not important, of course, just that I didn't have access to B. Bodhi's commentarial notes on it, which I always value.) I looked in the table of contents, and unless I was too hasty (please correct me if I was) the only definitions of wrong view I found in suttas in my anthology were of the not-believing- there-are-results-of-deeds variety, the variety that few if any of us here are likely to hold. As for the deeper kind of right view, there is a sutta in the Book of Ones that says that it is impossible for a person of right view to believe that the impermanent is permanent, that any formation brings happiness, that there the not- self is self. This sounds like wisdom that sees through the vipalassas to perfection. The note by B. Bodhi confirms this - this person of right view is a sotapanna. I sometimes gets the feeling Acharn Sujin is saying that to start out on the path one must first become a sotapanna! That's interesting in a koan-y kind of way, but for now I am only concerned about basic forms of wrong view, not deep degrees of right view. But that is me, that's where I am. Could certainly be justified for other people to have other, more refined appraoches based on deeper understanding. I don't deny that. Metta, Phil > > Bk of 10s, 104 'The Seed' (PTS transl): > > " 'Monks, for a man, a person, who has wrong view, wrong thinking, speech, > #67676 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Herman) - In a message dated 1/29/07 9:56:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Herman and Howard, > Grouped Sayings - Saṃyutta Nikāya 23:15 III [196.1] > Suffering - Dukkha > > > At Savatthi. While once seated, the Venerable Radha asked the Blessed > One: > > Venerable Sir, one says: Suffering!! What, Venerable Sir, is > suffering? > > Form, Radha, is suffering, feeling is suffering, perception is > suffering, mental constructions are suffering, consciousness is > suffering... [i.e. all the khandas are dukkha. ] > Robert > > ========================== Come on, Robert. You and I know English better than that. In this context, "suffering" is just a terrible translation for 'dukkha'. We know what suffering is, Robert - it is a mental state, the state of distress. Form, however, is form, not suffering. Similarly for feeling, perception, fabrication, and consciousness. Only distress is suffering. What IS true is that all these dhammas are unsatisfactory. They are all imperfect, unsatisfying, undependable, unreliable, and inadequate. That translation, namely the adjective 'unsatisfactory' (or its equivalent), is the only correct translation for 'dukkha' in this context. With metta, Howard #67677 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 1/29/07 10:12:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Oh-oh, being paraphrased... > > H: "For one, it requires a mind/body dualism of sorts, and as Scott > might well say, it is not the body or the mind that experiences, > experience experiences." > > Might I then possibly say that 'experience' is naama? > > S. > =========================== My two cents: Conventionally, people experience. Literally, there is nothing at all that experiences - there is just the experiencing. With metta, Howard #67678 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:25 pm Subject: Re: Ghana nichiconn Herman: Sorry to be a pain. But the good doctor's book is about Abhidhamma, and introducing pronouns where they don't belong isn't going to make things any clearer. Connie: Thank you, sir. I stand corrected. No doubt I'm blundering again, tho! #67679 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:52 pm Subject: One BiiG Family! bhikkhu5 Friends: Kinship with All: Be Gentle & Kind towards your Family! The Blessed Buddha once said: It is not easy, Bhikkhus & Friends, to find even a single living being that during this immensely long round of rebirths has not at least 10 times been your mother, father, brother, sister, son, or daughter!!! How is this possible? Inconceivable, Bhikkhus and Friends, is the beginning of this Samsara; not to be discovered is a first beginning of individual beings who, blinded by ignorance and all obsessed by craving, are hurrying and hastening through this round of rebirths! The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book SN 15:14-19 On Samsara: The Dreadful Round: Long is indeed Samsara for the simpleton not knowing the Dhamma. Long is the night for one who keeps Awake. Long is the mile for one who is tired. Long is the rebirth round for one unaware of the true Dhamma. Dhammapada 60 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/s_t/samsaara.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Samsara.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <.....> #67680 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 9:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > >> > > ========================== > Come on, Robert. You and I know English better than that. > In this context, "suffering" is just a terrible translation for > 'dukkha'. We know what suffering is, Robert - it is a mental state, the state of > distress. Form, however, is form, not suffering. Similarly for feeling, > perception, fabrication, and consciousness. Only distress is suffering. > What IS true is that all these dhammas are unsatisfactory. They are > all imperfect, unsatisfying, undependable, unreliable, and inadequate. That > translation, namely the adjective 'unsatisfactory' (or its equivalent), is the > only correct translation for 'dukkha' in this context. > ========== Dear Howard Thank you.?@Do you have a pali word in mind when you use 'suffering'. Are you restricting it to dosa(usually translated as aversion)?H Robert #67681 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:27 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (8) nichiconn Dear Friends, VIII -- Mittaa. text: 8. "Saddhaaya pabbajitvaana, mitte mittarataa bhava; bhaavehi kusale dhamme, yogakkhemassa pattiyaa. RD: Mittaa, thou Sister friend! *94 who camest forth Convinced in heart, love thou in thought and deed Friends worthy of thy love. *95 So train thyself In ways of good to win the safe, sure Peace. (8) PRUITT: 8. Mittaa, having gone forth in faith, be one who delights in friends (mitta). Develop good mental states for the attainment of rest from exertion. 8. The word Mittaa is a vocative. One who delights in friends (mittarataa) means: greatly delighting (abhirataa) in good friends (kalyaa.namitta). There, be the one who delights in paying honour and esteem. Develop good mental states means: cause the states of the noble paths to prosper. Rest from exertion means: for the acquisition of, for the attainment of Arahatship and quenching. ***** *94 Mittaa = 'friend'; but see note 2 to Ps. xxv. ** *95 'In thought and deed,' 'worthy of thy love,' are from the Commentary. 'Peace' is another rendering of yogakkhema, so is 'security' (verse 9). ======= **for the Mittaa in Ps. xxv, the note reads: < Mettaa in the Commentary. Mittaa = amica. Cf. Ps. viii. Both Mittaa and Mettikaa (Ps. xxiv.) may be patronymics, derived ultimately from Mitra (Mithra), the Vedic propitious, friendly Day or Sun god. > c. #67682 From: connie Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:44 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (9) nichiconn Dear Friends of the Sisters, IX -- Bhadraa. text: 9. "Saddhaaya pabbajitvaana, bhadre bhadrarataa bhava; bhaavehi kusale dhamme, yogakkhemamanuttara.m. RD: Bhadraa, who camest forth convinced in heart, To sure felicity, O fortunate! *96 That heart devote. Develop *97 all that's good, Faring to uttermost Security. (9) PRUITT: 9. Bhadraa, having gone forth in faith, be one who delights in auspicious things (bhadra). Develop good mental states and unsurpassed rest from exertion. 9. The word Bhadraa is a vocative. One who delights in auspicious things (bhadra-rata) means: be one who greatly rejoices in (abhirata) and who delights in (rata) the auspicious (bhadra) states of virtuous conduct, etc. Unsurpassed rest from exertion (yoga-kkhema-m-anuttara.m) means, unsurpassed quenching, the unoppressed rest (khema.m) from the four ties (catuuhi yogehi). Cultivate the [thirty-seven] good mental states associated with awakening in order to attain that. This is the meaning. ***** *96 Bhadraa = Felicia. *97 The graceful progression - bhadrarataa bhava, bhaavehi . . . cannot well be reproduced. It is merely suggested by 'devote. Develop.' == c. #67683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 5, 9. nilovg Hi James, I am glad to see you reacting to my Vipassana Letters. Yes, this subject comes up all the time. Also in Howard's posts before I went to Thailand and to which I will react little by little. You bring good points. Some of these will be touched on when writing to Howard, and afterwards I will go back to your points, but not all at once. You make me consider matters more and that is a good thing. Is all well in Taiwan? Best wishes, Nina. Op 30-jan-2007, om 1:55 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Your descriptions of Right Effort really sound like you are trying to > neutralize any type of effort at all. #67684 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation egberdina Hi Jon, I'm glad you are well, and thanks for the question. > As a matter of interest, do you see meditation as the only way of coming > to a better understanding of the way things truly are, or is the > development of that kind of understanding possible outside of times of > meditation practice? > I do not think that folks who do not consider, or are not guided to consider, what happens in their lives, will get any insight into what their life is all about. And meditation is a form of consideration, allbeit more focused or in-depth. There is the line that those who do not learn from or understand history are condemned to repeat it, and I reckon that sentiment has a lot going for it. As a qualification, I see faith as a prime hindrance to effective consideration/meditation, almost by definition. Faith is that blind activity that sets out to discover it's object, come what may. A faith-bound person may as well not consider/meditate. Or, without a willingness to accept the possibility that the way things are are not at all like one has wanted or believed, one may as well set out to repeat history. Hope that answers your question Kind Regards Herman #67685 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/30/07 12:58:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard > Thank you.?@Do you have a pali word in mind when you > use 'suffering'. Are you restricting it to dosa(usually translated > as aversion)?H > Robert > ======================= The same word, 'dukkha', serves as noun or adjective, depending on context. However, more strictly, 'dukkho' is an adjective and 'dukkhataa' the noun meaning "suffering". With metta, Howard #67686 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:10 am Subject: RE:[dsg] Re: The Origin of Energy! (just having fun) dacostacharles Hi Phil, all. I had to laugh, (ha ha haha...!) sorry, please don't take it the wrong way that I found your post quite funny, but to me it all means I am waking up. And for all you hardliners please remember that the Buddha and his students taught many different ways, to many different types of people, and sometimes the teaching even conflict depending on levels of understanding and purposes. So ..... If one teaching can't seem to bring you to any realization or type of enlightenment then try another. But, I know, it is more fun to debate the teachings and understandings. I enjoy that too (yep, I am starting to wake up). Yours truly, Charles DaCosta _____ #67687 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing scottduncan2 Sufferers, R: "Form, Radha, is suffering, feeling is suffering, perception is suffering, mental constructions are suffering, consciousness is suffering..." H: "In this context, "suffering" is just a terrible translation for 'dukkha'. We know what suffering is, Robert - it is a mental state, the state of distress. Form, however, is form, not suffering. Similarly for feeling, perception, fabrication, and consciousness. Only distress is suffering. What IS true is that all these dhammas are unsatisfactory. They are all imperfect, unsatisfying, undependable, unreliable, and inadequate. That translation, namely the adjective 'unsatisfactory' (or its equivalent), is the only correct translation for 'dukkha' in this context." I'm not sure what this means, 'form...is form, not suffering'. Looking at the sutta, it seems to impute the nature of unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) to form. The Paali, for example is 'ruupa.m dukkha.m' and not 'ruupa.m ruupa.m'. The SN text (Dukkhasutta.m) comes out of a series. Looking more closely, the Buddha teaches a number of things regarding Form (ruupa), Feeling (vedanaa), Perception (sa~n~na), Volitional Formations (sa"nkhaaraa), and Consciousness (vi~n~nanaa). Each of these five khandas are described in turn, in the separate suttas in the series, as: Maara (maaro); subject to Maara (maaradhammo); impermanent (anicca.m); of an impermanent nature (aniccadhammo); as suffering (dukkha); of a painful nature (dukkhadhammo); as non-self (anattaa); of a selfless nature (anattadhammo); as subject to destruction (khayadhammo); as subject to vanishing (vayadhammo); as subject to arising (samudayadhammo); and as subject to cessation (nirodhadhammo). Whether one says form is 'suffering' or form is 'unsatisfactory' or form is dukkha, what is the difference? Why would the teaching include 'dukkha' and 'dukkhadhammo' along with the others if they were not separately applicable to the khandhas? Sincerely, Scott. #67688 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:45 am Subject: RE:[dsg] Re: The Origin of Energy! (just having fun) philofillet Hi Charles > I had to laugh, (ha ha haha...!) sorry, please don't take it the wrong way That's cool, no problem! Metta, Phil #67689 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 1/30/07 7:37:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > I'm not sure what this means, 'form...is form, not suffering'. > Looking at the sutta, it seems to impute the nature of > unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) to form. The Paali, for example is > 'ruupa.m dukkha.m' and not 'ruupa.m ruupa.m'. > ===================== I don't know why you are unsure of what it means, Scott. Suffering is distress, a type of sankhara, a type of nama. Material forms are not. They are rupas. Get it? Categories!! But rupas, and all conditioned phenomena, are indeed unsatisfactory. There is no thing that is "unsatisfactoriness", however, for that is mere (well grounded) pa~n~natti. But all conditioned dhammas are indeed unsatisfactory, and that is exactly what is meant by "Sabbe sankhara dukkha." It is proper to translate 'ruupa.m dukkha.m' as "Rupas are unsatisfactory" or "Rupas are flawed" perhaps, but not as "Rupas are suffering". That latter is literally false and seriously misleading. At best it is poor poetry. With metta, Howard #67690 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing scottduncan2 Hi Howard, I was wondering: H: "My two cents: Conventionally, people experience. Literally, there is nothing at all that experiences - there is just the experiencing." There is 'experiencing' through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the tongue, the body, and through the mind, for example. Are not the moments of consciousness associated with these doorways 'something' and not 'nothing'? Are there not realities which 'experience' - whose function it is to 'experience' - in different ways? How can there be only a mystical-sounding and ethereal 'experiencing'? This doesn't seem to me to be a free-floating sort of thing. Have I misunderstood you? Sincerely, Scott. #67691 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Roots jonoabb Hi James (and KenH) I don't think anyone's disputing that, as you say, the Buddha taught anatta, anicca, and dukkha - not just anatta. But all 3 characteristics must be known if enlightenment is to be attained. The tags you refer to below and the references to seeing either anicca or dukkha or anatta simply describe differences in degree. See the detailed explanation given at Vism Ch XXI pars. 88 and 89 where it is explained that every attainer of enlightenment must comprehend all 3 characteristics, and that the differences lie in which characteristic was first comprehended and which contemplation immediately preceded the path moment. Jon > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/ariya_puggala.htm > #67692 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing scottduncan2 Hi Howard, H: "I don't know why you are unsure of what it means, Scott. Suffering is distress, a type of sankhara, a type of nama. Material forms are not. They are rupas. Get it? Categories!!" I think you are saying that ruupa, being ruupa, cannot 'suffer' hence 'suffering' is a poor word choice in translating the Paali 'dukkha' in the phrase 'ruupa.m dukkha.m'. I don't think this sort of concrete way of seeing it is at all the point. 'Dukkha', it seems, has meaning that is difficult to translate into English, for sure. I certainly don't think of it or is say it in the way you suggest. It seems that you may, in fact, mean something like 'dosa' or 'domanassa' - mental factors, in making your point. Sincerely, Scott. #67693 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 1/30/07 12:58:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > > > Dear Howard > > Thank you.?@Do you have a pali word in mind when you > > use 'suffering'. Are you restricting it to dosa(usually translated > > as aversion)?H > > Robert > > > ======================= > The same word, 'dukkha', serves as noun or adjective, depending on > context. However, more strictly, 'dukkho' is an adjective and 'dukkhataa' the > noun meaning "suffering". > > __________ Dear Howard Not quite sure how that relates to the discussion, could you elaborate.. Robert #67694 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 1/30/07 8:32:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I was wondering: > > H: "My two cents: Conventionally, people experience. Literally, there is > nothing at all that experiences - there is just the experiencing." > > There is 'experiencing' through the eyes, the ears, the nose, the > tongue, the body, and through the mind, for example. Are not the > moments of consciousness associated with these doorways 'something' > and not 'nothing'? Are there not realities which 'experience' - whose > function it is to 'experience' - in different ways? How can there be > only a mystical-sounding and ethereal 'experiencing'? This doesn't > seem to me to be a free-floating sort of thing. Have I misunderstood you? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > ======================== I am trying to avoid agency speech, Scott. Any vi~n~nana is a knowing/experiencing, an activity, an event. It is not some "thing" that knows (i.e., a cognitive agent) - it is the knowing itself. When you find yourself uncomfortable with a "free-floating" activity such as knowing, that is because you want there to be agents that do things, doers. You want there to be a core of being underlying the experiencing, an actor. Single-function agents, if they existed, would be uni-dimensional selves, and they would be hardly better to keep in mind than a multi-dimensional agent, a person-entity. There is nothing more to experiencing than experiencing. Our inclination to want there to be a thing that experiences, an experiencer, is the basis for an atta-view. Consider what there is when "you are conscious of (say) hardness". There may seem to be some thing that is conscious of it, but it is concept only. There is nothing there that is doing the knowing, but the knowing does occur. Search as hard as you wish, but no knower will be found. (You won't find the hardness either except as object of the knowing. But the emptiness of the object isn't the issue at hand.) With metta, Howard #67695 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 1/30/07 9:16:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > H: "I don't know why you are unsure of what it means, Scott. Suffering > is distress, a type of sankhara, a type of nama. Material forms are > not. They are rupas. Get it? Categories!!" > > I think you are saying that ruupa, being ruupa, cannot 'suffer' hence > 'suffering' is a poor word choice in translating the Paali 'dukkha' in > the phrase 'ruupa.m dukkha.m'. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Of course rupas cannot suffer, but that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that rupas are not instances of suffering, because rupas are not distress - they are not namas or mental states of any sort. -------------------------------------- > > I don't think this sort of concrete way of seeing it is at all the > point. 'Dukkha', it seems, has meaning that is difficult to translate > into English, for sure. I certainly don't think of it or is say it in > the way you suggest. > > It seems that you may, in fact, mean something like 'dosa' or > 'domanassa' - mental factors, in making your point. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > > ========================= I can't do any better, Scott. I give up. With metta, Howard #67696 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/30/07 9:59:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard > Not quite sure how that relates to the discussion, could you > elaborate.. > Robert > ====================== No, sorry, I can't make my point any more clearly than I already have. With metta, Howard #67697 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/30/2007 9:20:04 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: Of course rupas cannot suffer, but that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that rupas are not instances of suffering, because rupas are not distress - they are not namas or mental states of any sort. Hi All Nama and rupa support each other. One does not stand without the other. Therefore, if nama is involved in suffering, would not rupa have to be as well? Rupa would be a "co-suffering generator." This especially in light of the view that there is "no sufferer" or agent that suffers; just suffering. Also, when we separate nama and rupa, do we make them into entities unwittingly? TG #67698 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/30/07 12:00:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi All > > Nama and rupa support each other. One does not stand without the other. > Therefore, if nama is involved in suffering, would not rupa have to be as > well? > Rupa would be a "co-suffering generator." > > This especially in light of the view that there is "no sufferer" or agent > that suffers; just suffering. > > Also, when we separate nama and rupa, do we make them into entities > unwittingly? > > TG > ======================= Rupas, and all conditioned dhammas, are unsatisfactory, and, when clung to, they condition suffering. They are certainly conditions for suffering, but alone they are insufficent. The four noble truths constitute the core of the Dhamma. The second noble truth gives the primary cause of suffering, and it is neither dhammas nor sensual pleasure, nor becoming, nor non-becoming that is the central cause delineated there, but the craving for them. The second noble truth points to tanha. With metta, Howard P.S. It is proper to distinguish nama from rupa. They are not the same. IMO, though, it is improper to assert their independent existence. #67699 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:39 am Subject: Dukkha (as Suffering) is the Second Dart upasaka_howard Hi, all - In the following, the Buddha explains the nature of suffering. It is the basis for my view on suffering. With metta, Howard ___________________________ Dart Translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera PTS: S iv 207 CDB ii 1263 Source: From Contemplation of Feeling: The Discourse-grouping on the Feelings (WH 303), translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983). Copyright © 1983 Buddhist Publication Society. Used with permission. Copyright © 1983 Buddhist Publication Society. Access to Insight edition © 1998 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. "An untaught worldling, O monks, experiences pleasant feelings, he experiences painful feelings and he experiences neutral feelings. A well-taught noble disciple likewise experiences pleasant, painful and neutral feelings. Now what is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists herein between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling? "When an untaught worldling is touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. He thus experiences two kinds of feelings, a bodily and a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart and, following the first piercing, he is hit by a second dart. So that person will experience feelings caused by two darts. It is similar with an untaught worldling: when touched by a painful (bodily) feeling, he worries and grieves, he laments, beats his breast, weeps and is distraught. So he experiences two kinds of feeling: a bodily and a mental feeling. "Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he then proceeds to enjoy sensual happiness. And why does he do so? An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He does not know, according to facts, the arising and ending of these feelings, nor the gratification, the danger and the escape, connected with these feelings. In him who lacks that knowledge, an underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called an untaught worldling who is fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is fettered by suffering, this I declare. "But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling, he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling. It is as if a man were pierced by a dart, but was not hit by a second dart following the first one. So this person experiences feelings caused by a single dart only. It is similar with a well-taught noble disciple: when touched by a painful feeling, he will no worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. He experiences one single feeling, a bodily one. "Having been touched by that painful feeling, he does not resist (and resent) it. Hence, in him no underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness. And why not? As a well-taught noble disciple he knows of an escape from painful feelings other than by enjoying sensual happiness. Then in him who does not proceed to enjoy sensual happiness, no underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He knows, according to facts, the arising and ending of those feelings, and the gratification, the danger and the escape connected with these feelings. In him who knows thus, no underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one who is not fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called a well-taught noble disciple who is not fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not fettered to suffering, this I declare. "This, O monks, is the distinction, the diversity, the difference that exists between a well-taught noble disciple and an untaught worldling." Revised: Sunday 2006-06-18 #67700 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/30/2007 10:37:54 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Rupas, and all conditioned dhammas, are unsatisfactory, and, when clung to, they condition suffering. They are certainly conditions for suffering, but alone they are insufficent. The four noble truths constitute the core of the Dhamma. The second noble truth gives the primary cause of suffering, and it is neither dhammas nor sensual pleasure, nor becoming, nor non-becoming that is the central cause delineated there, but the craving for them. The second noble truth points to tanha. With metta, Howard Hi Howard, All But in the 12 Fold Chain, the cause of tanha is Contact (hence The All), and the cause of contact goes back to other causes. So there are many facets consider. Tanha is mentioned in the 4 N Truths because it represents a focal point for breaking suffering and hence is integral to the Buddha's system. But its not "the sole thing" at work. TG #67701 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/30/07 12:56:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard, All > > But in the 12 Fold Chain, the cause of tanha is Contact (hence The All), > and > the cause of contact goes back to other causes. So there are many facets > consider. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Of course. The interdependencies are complex. It is avijja that is the fundamental basis for all the factors of dependent origination - they are all contaminated by ignorance. But it is tanha that the Buddha gives as the cause for dukkha, and I'll leave to him as to where the primary emphasis should be put. Obviously, given that the craving for various things is the cause for suffering, those things are among the conditions for that suffering. I certainly don't deny that. But as I said before: No craving, no suffering - and no suffering, no problem. ------------------------------------- Tanha is mentioned in the 4 N Truths because it represents a focal > > point for breaking suffering and hence is integral to the Buddha's system. > > But its not "the sole thing" at work. -------------------------------------- Howard: I agree, it is not the only condition. However, it is a necessary and the primary condition - the one given by the Buddha as "cause". As the Buddha said: "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming." -------------------------------------- > > TG > =================== With metta, Howard #67702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:25 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Ch 22, no 11. Cessation. nilovg Dear friends, Those who have attained the fourth stage of arúpa-jhåna, the ``Sphere of Neither Perception Nor Non-Perception'', and have also realized the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the anågåmí or who have realized the stage of the arahat, can attain ``cessation'' (nirodha-samåpatti) which is the temporary ceasing of bodily and mental activities. The person who has attained ``cessation'' (``the stopping of perception and feeling'') is different from a corpse. We read in the Greater Discourse of the Miscellany (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 43) that Mahå-Koììhita asked Såriputta a number of questions. He also asked questions about the dead body and about the difference between the dead body and the monk who has attained cessation. We read that Mahå-Koììhita asked: ``In regard to this body, your reverence, when how many things are got rid of, does this body lie cast away, flung aside like unto a senseless log of wood?'' ``In regard to this body, your reverence, when three things are got rid of: vitality, heat and consciousness, then does this body lie cast away, flung aside like unto a senseless log of wood.'' ``What is the difference, your reverence, between that dead thing, passed away, and that monk who has attained to the stopping of perception and feeling?'' ``Your reverence, the bodily activities of that dead thing, passed away, have been stopped, have subsided, the vocal activities have been stopped, have subsided, the mental activities have been stopped, have subsided, the vitality is entirely destroyed, the heat allayed, the sense-organs are entirely broken asunder. But that monk who has attained to the stopping of perception and feeling, although his bodily activities have been stopped, have subsided, although his vocal activities have been stopped, have subsided, although his mental activities have been stopped, have subsided, his vitality is not entirely destroyed, his heat is not allayed, his sense-organs are purified. This, your reverence, is the difference between a dead thing, passed away, and that monk who has attained to the stopping of perception and feeling.'' For those who emerge from cessation, the first citta which arises is a phala-citta (lokuttara vipåkacitta), having nibbåna as its object. In the case of the anågåmí it is the phala-citta of the stage of the anågåmí and in the case of the arahat it is the phala-citta of the arahat. The Visuddhimagga (XXIII, 50) states that their minds tend towards nibbåna. We read: Towards what does the mind of one who has emerged tend? It tends towards nibbåna. For this is said: ``When a bhikkhu has emerged from the attainment of the cessation of perception and feeling, friend Visåkha, his consciousness inclines to seclusion, leans to seclusion, tends to seclusion'' (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 44, 302). In the Lesser Discourse in Gosiòga (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 31) we read that the Buddha came to see Anuruddha, Nandiya and Kimbila when they were staying in the Gosiòga sål-wood. The Buddha asked them about their life in the forest. They could attain all stages of rúpa- jhåna and arúpa-jhåna and they could ``abide'' in them for as long as they liked. The Buddha said: ``It is good, Anuruddhas, it is good. But did you, Anuruddhas, by passing quite beyond this abiding, by allaying this abiding, reach another state of further-men, an excellent knowledge and vision befitting the ariyans, an abiding in comfort?'' ``How could this not be, Lord? Here we, Lord, for as long as we like, by passing quite beyond the plane of neither perception-nor-non- perception, entering on the stopping of perception and feeling, abide in it, and having seen through intuitive wisdom, our cankers come to be utterly destroyed. By passing quite beyond that abiding, Lord, by allaying that abiding, another state of further-men, an excellent knowledge and vision befitting the ariyans, an abiding in comfort is reached. But we, Lord, do not behold another abiding in comfort that is higher or more excellent than this abiding in comfort.'' ``It is good, Anuruddhas, it is good. There is no other abiding in comfort that is higher or more excellent than this abiding in comfort.'' ***** Nina. #67703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:29 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, 6, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Letter about Vipassanå 6 Vienna, November 1, ‘89 The development of satipatthåna is the only way to know the truth of impermanence, dukkha and anattå . However, we all notice that mindfulness does not often arise and that nåma and rúpa are not known as they are. We confuse all the different doorways and we do not realize nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa; we cannot distinguish them from each other. We know that the eightfold Path has to be developed, but it is difficult to develop it. Khun Sujin said that we are too sick to be able to walk. She reminded us that the wholesome qualities which are the "påramís", the perfections, must be developed together with satipatthåna; they are like vitamins which will give us the strength to walk the Path. The Buddha, when he was still a Bodhisatta, developed the påramís for aeons. We all need the perfection of resolution (aditthåna), which is the resolution to continue being mindful of the nåma or rúpa appearing right now. We know that the Path is difficult and that it will take many lives to develop it and therefore, we need the firm resolution to continue on. When we come to know more our akusala we shall understand that defilements are deeply rooted. Akusala is like weed which is deeply rooted and not easily pulled out. We need the perfection of wisdom; it is right understanding which can pull out the roots of lobha, attachment, dosa, aversion, and moha, ignorance. We need the perfection of energy or courage, viriya, so that we shall not become downhearted when progress is slow. We should encourage ourselves to continue on with mindfulness of nåma and rúpa. The perfection of patience is important; we should listen to the Dhamma with patience and consider it carefully, so that we can develop understanding of realities in the situation of our daily life. We need the perfection of loving kindness, mettå, as a means to have kusala citta when we are with other people or when we think of them. When mettå arises we consider other people as our close friends, even when we do not know them, when they are strangers to us. We shall think of ways and means to help them and to make them happy. It is natural that there are people we do not find sympathetic, but when aversion or anger arises we should consider that characteristic. Then we shall see more clearly that aversion is useless and we can be reminded to develop mettå right now. For the development of mettå it is necessary to have right understanding of the different cittas which arise. When someone else speaks unpleasant words to us we are likely to have resentment, but when we see the value of kusala we can gradually learn to refrain from retorting such words and to forgive him. Forgiving is a kind of generosity, it is like handing a gift to someone. ******* Nina. #67704 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:37 am Subject: right effort, and some Thailand impressions. nilovg Hi James, I did not intend to reply already, but some things in this post I like very much and will elaborate. ----------- J: A measure of what is enough may perhaps be supplied by the words of Lord Buddha when he spoke on how a monk should endeavour. "Monks, if his turban or hair were on fire, he would make an intense desire, effort, endeavour, exertion, struggle, mindfulness and attentiveness to extinguish the fire. So also, an intense desire, effort, endeavour, exertion, struggle, mindfulness and attentiveness is to be made by him so as to give up every evil and wrong state." --------- N: Kh Sujin reminded us about the fire on our head, also in Chiengmai where we had three full days of Dhamma talk. We have so much akusala, but this sutta reminds us to perform as much kusala as we can, because at such moments we do not accumulate more akusala. Life is so short. Kh Sujin once said: kusala is never enough. I am thinking of all the perfections and energy is one of them. ---------- J: It is samma vayamo, right effort, which is one component of the Noble Eightfold Path. -------- N: So it has to accompany right understanding of the Noble Eightfold Path. It is a mental factor arising because of conditions, not a self. But when we are making an effort the notion of 'I make an effort' can creep in, without us knowing it. That is why understanding is needed. And it is understanding that sees more and more the danger of akusala, and this in itself is a condition for right effort. Without the Buddha's teachings we would not know whatis kusala and what akusala, and thus, it begins with listening. ---------- J: Have faith (saddha), perseverance (viriya) and mindfulness (sati) to purify ourselves, to overcome pain and grief, to reach the right path, to win Nibbana. -------- N: And have right understanding of realities. This is indispensable. -------- J: He should not essay too strenuously nor too laxly. If he essays too laxly, he will fall into rigidity and torpor. If he essays too strenuously, he will become restless -------- N: This is the balance of the faculties we read about in the teachings. Very important. As you will understand I do not agree with having to be unconfortable, or strenuously aware. That sounds too strained to me, and there may be clinging behind it all. But no need to debate this. As regards this balance I am thinking of something else. We should be contented with what we have, as to possessions and also as to the capacities we have in order to develop understanding and all good qualities. We were born with such or such capacities and this is conditioned by kamma. Nobody can force himself to attain enlightenment quickly. Lodewijk was wondering whether this could make us passive and lazy. No, here we need the balance again: we need not be disheartened about progress being slow, and on the other hand: we should not be lazy and forget that our heads are on fire. What are your own experiences as to being in balance or getting off balance? Do you understand me more now, when I speak of realities being dependent on conditions, of the arising of sati and understanding being dependent on conditions? Laziness is not in the book of Kh Sujin or anyone of my friends. After a long day of Dhamma talks we went to the house and office of Trasvin (silkworm), who is an eminent publisher. There she spoke for another hour on the Bodhisatta and the perfections. She said that the Bodhisatta was declared a future Buddha by the Buddha Dipankara and in that life started to consider all the perfections he had to accumulate. He did not listen to a Dhamma explanation in that life since he was considering all the perfections, but in following lives he listened to other Buddhas. There was in Chiengmai also a 92 year old lady, Kh Sanguan Sucharitakul, who needed a wheelchair at the airport. She is an old friend of us who lives in Bgk. Each night around two she gets up and writes for a few hours from Kh Sujin's tapes so that it can be printed later on. If we did not have her there would be no books of Acharn. Acharn does not write books herself, she speaks, she has the gift of the word. Kh Sanguan is an example for me. Nina. #67705 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 1:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Roots egberdina Hi KenH, > > Forgive the "pedantic lecture" Herman, but should you and I be > explaining things? Isn't that the role of a Buddha? Surely, our role > is to hear, consider and apply the Buddha's explanation. (?) > No worries about lecturing or otherwise. Or misunderstanding. All shall be revealed :-) There is a certain unidentified hubris, arrogance, conceit if you will, in the person who takes on by faith the views of another, lock, stock and barrel. And a denial of reality that literally defies reality (that, at least, is what the aim is). First of all, in having selected the Buddha as the explainer of the world, there is no recognition of the role that you have played in this selection, Ken. The arrogance comes from the presumption that you, KenH, have the wherewithal to make an informed choice as to who is best able to explain the world. There is a complete denial of the superior role that you have played in this process. You are the committtee who was cast a discerning glance at the proposals in front of you, and you have deemed the Buddha to be the worthy applicant. Not only that, you determine at each step of the way what the Buddha has meant by each statement that he has made. It is you, Ken, always you and noone else, who puts the meaning into the sentences. Because, as you well realise from the discussions on sites like these, the meaning of the sentences is not at all a given, or universally acknowledged. So, in fact, it is you who is the explainer of the world, KenH, but you hide behind the Buddha, and make him your puppet, the one who speaks and acts for you. This is understandable. Because it is a grave responsibility to have to act in the world, to make your life, knowing full well that you stand to inherit the consequences of those acts. But it is an act of great insincerity, and one that provides only a false sense of security, to deny the freedom in each moment to determine your course. Instead, by adopting wholesale the ethics of another man, it is no longer you who acts, it is no longer you who chooses, but the Buddha. Instead of acknowledging the determination you make each moment, you rationalise to yourself "I do this because I am a Buddhist" or "the Budda says to do this". This is a Nuremberg defence, that totally denies your freedom and responsibility. > > I am snipping the rest of your post; I think you are saying that no > explanation of reality is more right than any other. If that were the > case there would be no point in anything. Sorry if I have misunderstood. Is there a point to anything? Does that Buddha who you have appointed as your proxy mouthpiece say there is a point to anything? My reading of him, (note that I do not appeal to his authority but mine) suggests that he believed there is no point to anything. That's why he worked tirelessly to get of the meaningless wheel, and when he succeeded, instructed others in how to to the same. I might suggest to you that if it is your project to find meaning, value and satisfaction in samsara, then perhaps you ought to appoint a different spokesman, because Buddhism is irreconcilable with such a project. See, I can lecture too :-) Kind Regards Herman #67706 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Roots ken_aitch Hi Herman, ----------- H: > No worries about lecturing or otherwise. Or misunderstanding. All shall be revealed :-) ----------- I'm glad you didn't mind being lectured to. Nor will I. :-) Howard recently referred to "parlour talk," a term I find very helpful. Until we decide on which particular teaching we are going to accept and follow, all talk can only be parlour talk. ---------------------------- H: > There is a certain unidentified hubris, arrogance, conceit if you will, in the person who takes on by faith the views of another, lock, stock and barrel. And a denial of reality that literally defies reality (that, at least, is what the aim is). ----------------------------- In parlour talk, there is no set definition of (for example) "faith." And so, while it is Herman's turn to talk, faith is a dirty word. Similarly, while it is Herman's - or anyone else's - turn to talk, "reality" means what the speaker intends it to mean ('nothing more and nothing less.') That's not good enough for me; I want order. I want our terms to be defined and, ideally, I want everyone in the discussion to stick strictly to the accepted definitions. -------------------- H: > First of all, in having selected the Buddha as the explainer of the world, there is no recognition of the role that you have played in this selection, Ken. --------------------- So what? Surely, the time to worry about that is *before* accepting the Buddha and his teaching. Once that acceptance has been genuinely made there can be no hovering back and forth. Otherwise, the acceptance is no acceptance at all. ---------------------------------- H: > The arrogance comes from the presumption that you, KenH, have the wherewithal to make an informed choice as to who is best able to explain the world. There is a complete denial of the superior role that you have played in this process. You are the committtee who was cast a discerning glance at the proposals in front of you, and you have deemed the Buddha to be the worthy applicant. ---------------------------------- The teaching of anatta answers that objection: If the teaching is heard, it is heard because of conditions, not because of sentient beings. ------------------------------------------------ H: > Not only that, you determine at each step of the way what the Buddha has meant by each statement that he has made. It is you, Ken, always you and noone else, who puts the meaning into the sentences. ------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the vote of confidence, Herman. :-) But, according to this Teaching, it is due to conditions, not to 'me.' ----------------------------- H: > Because, as you well realise from the discussions on sites like these, the meaning of the sentences is not at all a given, or universally acknowledged. So, in fact, it is you who is the explainer of the world, KenH, but you hide behind the Buddha, and make him your puppet, the one who speaks and acts for you. -------------------------------- We must see conditionality 'everywhere and in all things.' ---------------------------------------------- H: > This is understandable. Because it is a grave responsibility to have to act in the world, to make your life, knowing full well that you stand to inherit the consequences of those acts. But it is an act of great insincerity, and one that provides only a false sense of security, to deny the freedom in each moment to determine your course. Instead, by adopting wholesale the ethics of another man, it is no longer you who acts, it is no longer you who chooses, but the Buddha. Instead of acknowledging the determination you make each moment, you rationalise to yourself "I do this because I am a Buddhist" or "the Budda says to do this". This is a Nuremberg defence, that totally denies your freedom and responsibility. ---------------------------------------------------- Have I, or any other Abhidhamma proponent at DSG, ever done (or not done) something "because I am a Buddhist?" Surely, we have been advocating the opposite! We see the Dhamma as a way of understanding the presently arisen namas and rupas. It is you, and the other formal practitioners, who see it as a list of things to do. I must admit; I did do something silly like that about three years ago, and I still feel a fool for having done it. I was admiring a boat my friend across the road had just bought. He suggested we go fishing. (!) Momentarily stuck for a response, I said, "Sorry, I can't; I'm a Buddhist." What a twit! What a stupid thing to say! What a silly trivialisation of the Buddha and his Dhamma! I still squirm whenever I remember it. I will probably delete this paragraph before anyone can see it. :-) ------------------------------------ KH: > > I am snipping the rest of your post; I think you are saying that no > explanation of reality is more right than any other. If that were the > case there would be no point in anything. Sorry if I have misunderstood. H: > Is there a point to anything? Does that Buddha who you have appointed as your proxy mouthpiece say there is a point to anything? My reading of him, (note that I do not appeal to his authority but mine) suggests that he believed there is no point to anything. That's why he worked tirelessly to get of the meaningless wheel, and when he succeeded, instructed others in how to to the same. I might suggest to you that if it is your project to find meaning, value and satisfaction in samsara, then perhaps you ought to appoint a different spokesman, because Buddhism is irreconcilable with such a project. See, I can lecture too :-) -------------------------- Thanks, Herman, and I apologise for "writing off" your efforts as mere parlour talk. As I understand the Dhamma (e.g., in the Advice to the Kalamas) the right way is to (first) decide on who you are going to accept as your teacher, and (then) to listen to that teacher, consider discuss and apply his teaching, exclusively. That means no more directionless parlour talk. Parlour talk is for going around and around in samsara. Ken H #67707 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 4:18 pm Subject: Re: Toodles! ksheri3 Good Evening connie, I am so sorry I only have a few seconds but I can plainly see you're trying to play the "straigtman" in this TRAGIC-COMEDY. The jokes I was thinking of when you shot off that iggulum-like phrase about this supposed Thera-Sarvasta cloak -- for instance, waight a minute, I'm portraying Lady Godiva and so I want my boobs prominently displayed while I ride this horsey thru town, etc. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Good Evening, Miss Labelled colette! > > I may have mistaken the directions thrown off the cuff of your > Thera-Sarvasta cloak from the Lost and Found (#63789). I hope you've got > the Yogacara and Madhyamaka things ironed out. colette: I've just found a wealth of material and depth to my studies. Who the hell has any time for such mundane activity as ironing. I'm still watching the SPIN CYCLE. In anticipation of the > successful conclusion, in spades, of your upsetting assignment, perhaps > there'll be moon pies by the apple cart at your celebration dinner. colette: In closing here I'll simply go with those wise and so true words spoken by a pure leader of the community: Rasputin, who said in writing, at the dinner table, "LOVE FREELY" I'm not too up on transposing my spades for wands or is that swords or... I look forward to reading your wonder reply tomorrow. Thanx BTW, can we be sure what it is and is not that, lets say, "x" represents? I mean a politician in a democratic society must certainly represent something, just like they teach those kids in Algerbra 1. C or is that, C? toodles, colette #67708 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 5:01 pm Subject: Miss Labeling, why I tend to shy away from Miss Direction ksheri3 connie, quickly I just printed and read a bit on this crazy wisdom called Solipsism. I can't wait to get into this stuff deeper. Oh, the games that are to be had, one cannot fathom. I'm reading a piece now by a guy from St. Petersburg Russia, it takes me time since I lack a lot of education that Ph.D.s seem to come by so easily therefore I have to dwell on it and figure it out for myself. Nevertheless I came to a part last night and marked it at "11:40 p.m." because I laughed out loud: "The best example of such extreme idealistic ideas was the treatise of Ratnakirti (XI century) 'Refutation of the existence of other minds' (Santanantara Dusana)." I know I have to go back and re-read my Lankavatara Sutra and Prajna Parimita sutra but that's besides the point. My laughter came from the realization that it has been explored: Refuting the mind's of others. Oh what fun! Then before I went to bed without finishing the piece I read: "The scool as such was too indianized for the Chinese (even the Buddhist) mind. Its epistemological attitude and very complicated philosophical scholasticism was alien to the metaphysical and onthological developments of the overwhelming majority of the established school of the Chinese Buddhism." THE BIG BANG. It struck me. In the margin I wrote: "Relative and Absolute INTERPRETATIONS of ABSTRACT CONCEPTS such as GOOD & EVIL" Do you see any of MY MIRIAD OF IMPLICATIONS HERE? Look this study is getting way deep and I'll need time to go back into my philosophy sections, if I can find them soon, to search for the definitions of NOMINALISTS and EMPIRICISTS etc. I only have six of the ten pages needed to read about Solipsism. And I've gotta finish this guy from Russias work, work on Wang Yangming, the journel of the american academy of religion's Storehouse counsciousness and the Unconscious: a comparative Study of Xuan Zang and Freud on the Subliminal Mind, etc. I, myself, have such a distaste for Freud and his devotion to masturbation as the means of keeping the male hierarchy in power, When I was at the Theosophical Societies Olcott Library, Wheaton IL back in the mid 1980s studying "high magik" of the Golden Dawn and The Society of the Inner Light, I found I was wrapped up in THE BOLLINGEN SERIES XX The Collective Works of Carl Gustav Jung, so Freud is nothing more that a lead sinker for me, stuff for "bottom feaders" catfish, etc. However it has to be dealt with since it is a major part of a majority of the population. In 1982 as I was on my walk between Flagstaff AZ and Winslow AZ I eventually caved in and had to take a sip of the Hydrogen Peroxide that I had in my backpack and holy shit did that suck, so drinking Castor Oil is akin to reading about Organized Religion's dependence upon the strength of the masturbatory practices advocated by S.Freud and A.O.Spare, both held in high regards by the christian faith. The Jews are a different story as you can see by my application of Iggulum, that spinning psychology of this supposed Jehweh, depicted through Adam Kadmon. As I said, I can't wait to get to your material tomorrow. Thanx. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Good Evening, Miss Labelled colette! > > I may have mistaken the directions thrown off the cuff of your > Thera-Sarvasta cloak from the Lost and Found (#63789). I hope you've got > the Yogacara and Madhyamaka things ironed out. In anticipation of the > successful conclusion, in spades, of your upsetting assignment, perhaps > there'll be moon pies by the apple cart at your celebration dinner. ... #67709 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Roots buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James (and KenH) > > I don't think anyone's disputing that, as you say, the Buddha taught > anatta, anicca, and dukkha - not just anatta. But all 3 characteristics > must be known if enlightenment is to be attained. The tags you refer to > below and the references to seeing either anicca or dukkha or anatta > simply describe differences in degree. See the detailed explanation > given at Vism Ch XXI pars. 88 and 89 where it is explained that every > attainer of enlightenment must comprehend all 3 characteristics, and > that the differences lie in which characteristic was first comprehended > and which contemplation immediately preceded the path moment. Yeah, I agree with this. I don't think I wrote otherwise. I was just stating that there is a difference in emphasis. But, in this group, anatta reigns supreme! ;-)) Metta, James #67710 From: "m_nease" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 6:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing m_nease Hi Scott and Howard, Hope you'll pardon a somewhat parenthetical intrusion: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > It seems that you may, in fact, mean something like 'dosa' or > 'domanassa' - mental factors, in making your point. I don't know if this is what Howard meant or not but it brings up a point I think important. A lot of people (maybe westerners in particular, not sure) come to the Dhamma for relief from domanassa. Although there is much in the Dhamma that does alleviate domanassa, both temporarily and permanently, the goal is not this relief but the end of rebirth. Impossible to overstate the importance of this difference in my opinion. mike #67711 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:00 pm Subject: Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing philofillet Hi Mike > Although there is much in the Dhamma that does alleviate domanassa, > both temporarily and permanently, the goal is not this relief but the > end of rebirth. Impossible to overstate the importance of this > difference in my opinion. Very good point. I've posted before about how much I love one talk in which you describe the way you came to see that meditation or other Dhamma related activities were all about replacing domanassa with pleasant feeling. An excellent warning. On the other hand, I have been coming across a lot of suttas in AN that say that speak of happiness here and now ("if one does wholesome deeds in the morning, that will be a happy morning" or words to that effect, for one example, and another in which "there is happiness in this lifetime and the next" for one who has a habit of avoiding evil deeds) and others in which being free from remorse is a pre-condition for guarding the sense doors (or the other way around, I guess) which is in turn condition for more profound developments. So it seems that happiness, freedom from dosa, freedom from remorse, freedom from the emotional suffering that is more likely when proliferation goes unchallenged - it seems that these mundane forms of happiness that I used to rail against as examples of Westerners exploiting the Dhamma for personal emotional gain - it seems that the Buddha offered them as profitable steps on the path toward deeper understanding. So while the goal is not this relief, it seems that this relief might be a necessary factor of further development towards the goal. That's the feeling I'm getting from these suttas. I will be studying them more, and discussing them more here, so no need to get into it now. Just wanted to note that. Metta, Phil #67712 From: connie Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:38 pm Subject: re: toodles, etc. nichiconn colette: "Relative and Absolute INTERPRETATIONS of ABSTRACT CONCEPTS such as GOOD & EVIL" Do you see any of MY MIRIAD OF IMPLICATIONS HERE? connie: Cheri! Abhidhamma 101 and beyond! Plently of excitement, to be sure. I tend to stick to translations of the pali texts anymore. Tonight, it is Pi.taka-Disclosure, on Pattern of the Dispensation: << 167. 25. Herein, what is the type of Thread Belonging To Worlds and Dissociated From Worlds? < As pierced by a down-falling spear, As though he had his head on fire, A mindful bhikkhu sets about Abandoning lust for sense desires > (S i 53). "As pierced by a down-falling spear, As though he had his head on fire" belongs to worlds. "A mindful bhikkhu sets about Abandoning lust for sense desires" is dissociated from worlds. [49] [And] < Bhikkhus, if there is will for physical nutriment > (cf S ii 101) belongs to worlds, while < If there is no will [for it] > is dissociated from worlds. >> Can't say "my lack of education hasn't hurt me none" either! I fell into the dsg camp like a scavenger devouring all the scraps I could from Nina's and others hands. It's more than I can properly digest. I laugh at my misreading Nagasena, I think it was, to the effect that "there's no soul in the broth" instead of breath. And of course, there's my deep love of the work of the late Mrs R-D, Sister. peace, connie #67713 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 7:56 pm Subject: Avoiding Effort! bhikkhu5 Friends: Energy avoids, overcomes, develops, & maintains! The Blessed Buddha once said: Friends: There are four efforts: The effort to avoid, the effort to overcome, the effort to develop, and the effort to maintain... What, friends, is the effort to avoid? In this case, when perceiving a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, a smell with the nose, a taste with the tongue, a touch with the body, or a thought of mind, one neither fixes to the overall appearance nor to any of its details. One strives to avert the arising of evil and detrimental states, such as greed, urge, and longing, by remaining with guarded sense-doors! One watches & notes the senses, keeping under control the senses... This is the effort to avoid! What, friends, is the effort to overcome? In this case, one does not accept any thought of sensual lust, ill-will, irritation, or any other evil and detrimental state that may have arisen! One immediately dispels it, destroys it, and causes it to vanish right there & then... This is called the effort to overcome! What, friends, is the effort to develop? In this case, one develops the links to Enlightenment, which bent on solitude, on detachment & on ceasing, ends in release, namely: Awareness, Investigation, Energy, Joy, Tranquillity, Concentration and Equanimity... This is called the effort to develop! What, friends, is the effort to maintain? In this case, one keeps the mind firmly focused on any advantageous object of concentration that may have arisen, such as the mental image of a skeleton, of a festering corpse infested by worms, of a swollen, decaying corpse, bluish-black riddled with pus and maggot dripping holes... This is called the effort to maintain! These, Friends, are the four Right Efforts! Source: Anguttara Nikaya. Numerical Sayings: AN 4:14 http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm Definitions and Inspirations also at: http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Effort.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Enthusiastic_is_Energy.htm Avoiding Effort! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #67714 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 9:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Arahants and compassion sarahprocter... Dear Joop, --- Joop wrote: > J: I don't know what you mean by "experience compassion on a daily > basis". > My main question is: do we talk about the same concept (yes: > concept) "compassion"? > I use it included the aspect "being touched be the suffering of > another sentient being" .... S: I agree that we need to consider and reflect further on what we mean by 'compassion' and in particular, what is meant by 'compassion' in the teachings. As I'm sure you'll have seen, it's a topic I've written a lot on - it's one that I find very important like you. If you look at some of these early messages, you'll see what I mean. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3774 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/10918 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11480 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12438 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/12978 Here's an interesting one from Dan too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13926 We both have a background of 'helping' people through our work and interests and we've had many opportunities on a daily basis to show compassion to those in difficulty of one kind or another. Of course the kindness and compassion are qualities to be developed. However the closely following sorrow and disturbance on account of those difficulties are qualities not to be developed. So we continue assisting others in our own ways, but I think we can also learn more about the distinction between what we've been brought up to take for compassion and the quality of karuna, just as we distinguish between love as we used to think of it and metta as taught by the Buddha. ..... > Jon states this ability (named also "empathy") is not needed. Do you? .... S: Again I think it depends on our definition of the term. I thought Jon & James both made some helpful further clarifications: James: "The arahant can recognize the suffering of another and want to alleviate that suffering, but he/she won't personally feel that suffering. Crying comes from self-pity, not compassion for others." Also, James' comments in #67608 were very interesting and helpful, I thought. Yes, it's not an easy topic and the way of seeing things (which both Jon & James express clearly) very much goes against our training and idea of care and compassion. Detached, equanimous, pleasant (or neutral)feeling are not terms we are used to associating with compassion. Pls let me know what you think before I say more. ..... > I can also say: Sariputta is a concept. > But if you find my words to harsh, then I can more subjective say: > To me the Buddha is more an example, an ideal, than an arahant is. .... S: No, your words aren't harsh at all. Of course the Buddha has the greatest, all-encompassing compassion on account of his great wisdom. I'm glad you brought up this interesting discussion and you raised many good points and questions on it. .... > See again my Bhikkhi Bodhi quote: > " The formula for the arahant … Now all these epithets are true for > the Buddha as well, but the Buddha is not described in this way; for > these terms emphasize the attainment of one's own liberation, and the > Buddha is extolled, not primarily as the one who has attained his own > liberation, but as the one who opens the doors of liberation for > others. That is, even in the archaic suttas of the Nikayas, an "other- > regarding" significance is already being subtly ascribed to the > Buddha's status that is not ascribed to the arahant." .... S: We need to be clear that when 'one's own liberation' is referred to, in fact there is no 'one's own' except in a conventional sense. Wisdom and compassion don't belong to anyone. Wisdom develops on and on until the defilements are eradicated in a particular stream of consciousness. We (again used in a conventional sense) can only help others according to the wisdom accumulated. For example, we all know here that the greatest gift is the 'gift of Dhamma', but it can only be shared or given according to the understanding developed to date. How it is shared will of course depend on our different inclinations. This is true for arahants too. Only the Buddha 'opens the doors of liberation' for others in the sense that without a Buddha's teachings, there could be no other arahants. .... > My first aim is not eradicating defilements (that's an to negative > and aggressive expression for me) but perfect my compassion. .... S: As I see it, there cannot be any perfection of compassion or any other positive state without an eradication of defilements. This is my the development of the perfections, for example, can only be developed with the wisdom which understands such states as not belonging to anyone. Otherwise, it's always 'my compassion' or 'his/her compassion' and so on. I'd be interested to hear your further comments on this, Joop, and any other short passages from the BB article for further discussion - as you said, at the very least, my comments will give you an excuse to crticise the orthodox (or 'archaic' according to BB) approach:-). Metta, Sarah ========= #67715 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The arahant- and the bodhisattva-ideal The End sarahprocter... Dear Joop, (James, Howard, all) --- Joop wrote: > J: I know you. Of course I have looked in UP before approaching you. > I'm afraid that wehen you say 'Theravda texts' you partly or totally > think on commentaties? .... S: Well, yes - as rehearsed at the various Councils and accepted from the outset by the Theravada (or Mahanama)monks. .... > And of course 'The inquiry of Ugra' is not a orthodox Theravada text: > neither Jan Nattier nor I states that; still this path is attractive > to me. .... S: Just because it isn't orthodox doesn't me it doesn't have any value or cannot be attractive as you find. What I was just saying was that the ideas you mentioned about the choice of paths and the bodhisattva undertaking are not in conformity with the Theravada texts. That was all. .... > S: I did have a (quick) look at the (Bhikku Bodhi) essay and I > understand how and why he is approaching the topic in this way and > the conclusions he's reached. In any case, I'm grateful to you for > having introduced the essay and raised this topic so sincerely. I > don't mind discussing it further, but I doubt you'll like my comments) > > J: Why not; maybe they give me a good chance to make some sweeping > statements against orthodoxy? ... S: Ah yes - those were your words I was just looking for: 'sweeping statements against orthodoxy', lol! Those anarchist leanings again, Joop:-). Btw, what did you think of Howard's further comments (#67486) to James's good quote on the going forth out of compassion? So, if you want to address any paragraphs in particular to me (one at a time) - we can both give vent to some 'sweeping statements' perhaps? You set the rules! .... > > S: p.s On 'Merit', lots in U.P. under 'Merit - bases of (Punna > Kiriya Vatthu)'. I think compassion can be included in many of these > such as under dana, sila, bhavana, service, sharing of merit, > expounding the > Dhamma. If 'Merit' has come to have other connotations, then of > course, it's not what is meant here and in the texts. > > J: I know you, of course I have looked in UP before approaching you. > My conclusion, after reading them is: I prefer to be a buddhist > without the "merit"-concept. The disadvantage of it is: expecting > something (good kamma, better rebirth) back; I prefer to be > compassionate for its own sake without expecting a reward. .... S: I also think 'merit' can be a misleading term and is a very much abused term. If you've looked at the U.P.s on the subject, you'll know that whenever there is an 'expecting something back', this is definitely not 'punna' or merit. This is why we always have to refer back to the teachings rather than be guided by popular ideas. Yes, 'compassionate for its own sake without expecting a reward' is real merit. Btw, I think Howard added some good comments to James's apt sutta quote on the arahants going forth out of compassion (#67486). Howard wrote: "Moreover, with not an iota of selfishness left in an arahant to stand as an obstacle to his/her clarity of vision and generosity of spirit, there is every reason to expect in an arahant a heart that is open, loving, and dedicated to removing pain in the world." I wonder if these comments impressed you as they did me? Again, thank you for all the interesting issues you've raised with your series. Metta, Sarah ========= #67716 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 sarahprocter... Dear Joop (& James), (A catching up with Joop's posts as you'll have noted!) --- Joop wrote: > Hallo James, all > > You are not the first who doubt the authenticity of the Anupada Sutta > (MN 111) > In his 'Abhidhamma Studies' Nyanaponika Thera quotes mrs Rhys Davis > who has the same opinion. > Nyanaponika however does not agree at all with her and has arguments > for the authenticity. > So: who shall I trust? .... S: On the question of authenticity, in the end, it'll just come down to any understanding developed to date, I think. This sutta comes up from time to time. I meant to also give you these links too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38546 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/38587 Metta, Sarah ========= #67717 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ghana sarahprocter... Hi Mike, Always good to hear from you. --- "m. nease" wrote: > > S: I agree that it is on account of not 'resolving the compact', not > > understanding dhammas as elements that the various vipallasa arise > > -especially those connected with ditthi (wrong views). > > This makes sense to me too, except why the emphasis on di.t.thi? .... S: Good question! I think on account of the strength of this particular vipallasa. Ditthi is the grossest kind of kilesa and the one that has to be eradicated first. It is ditthi which not only doesn't understand dhammas as elements, but which (mistakenly) takes them for being things and people and wholes. .... >Isn't > this > failure to resolve (or analyze) equally important to sa~n~navipallaasa > e.g., > as in taking the unpleasant for pleasant, impermanent for permanent > etc.? > And isn't this far more common than di.t.thivipallaasa? .... S: I agree that other kinds of vipallasa (i.e citta- and sanna vipallasa not accompanied by ditthi) are far more prevalent. However, they are not as pernicious or dangerous as those with ditthi. (Of course, the taking of the impermanent for permanent is also eradicated with ditthi). For example, the taking of the unpleasant for pleasant can be extremely subtle and arise even when there is a very clear understanding of elements as elements, such as in the various ariyans (other than arahants). Do you have any other ideas on this? Metta, Sarah p.s Are you still listening to c.d.s while painting? Anything of special interest? ============== #67718 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 10:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing sarahprocter... Hi James (& Howard), --- buddhatrue wrote: > The citta theory, however, does hold some problems for me because of > the zero duration of the cittas and the `unaccounted for' gap between > them which must exist for them to be separate. .... S: Why must there be any gap? I liked your reminder about the speed of cittas, the speed of the mind - yes we read about this in various suttas such as AN Ones. (More under 'Speed' in U.P., I believe). We also read about how one citta must fall away for another to arise. .... >For example, there > could be eye- ear- eye- nose- body- ear- taste- mind- mind- mind, > etc. consciousness moments following one after the other very > quickly, with no gap in-between. ... S: Yes, except to be accurate, we'd have to point out that there are always mind door consciousness moments in between each of the sense door consciousness moments. ... >But wouldn't that make the entire > consciousness stream permanent? Especially since the last > consciousness results in a new birth somewhere else? ... S: It means the consciousness stream is never-ending UNLESS there are particular conditions in place for it to be never-ending. Here we come back to samsara and D.O. ... >(Okay, I think > I am giving this too much thought- my cittas are in a twist! ;-)) .... S: :-) We can't have that now!! Metta, Sarah ========= #67719 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' sarahprocter... Dear Scott, (& Connie*) --- Scott Duncan wrote: > S: "...or rather 'has' arisen now? I was listening to a reminder about > how 'firm remembrance' (sa~n~naa) of dhammas is the proximate > condition for sati (of satipatthana) to arise. Now there are dhammas, > is the (kusala) sanna firm enough to condition sati? I understand > there has to be such firm remembrance of dhammas on and on and on, > otherwise there's more forgetfulness and we're back to taking this > moment for someone or something, rather than just visible object or > whatever is appearing." > > Yeah, I appreciate this clarification. How do you think that the > 'firm remembrance' that arises now relates to an 'original' arising? .... Sarah: I think this 'firm remembrance' accumulates like any other wholesome qualities. As we are reading with the Sisters, the hearing, considering and 'firm remembrance' has been a growing process over aeons. Just in this lifetime, when we first hear the teachings, the 'remembrance' of what we hear/consider is very weak, very little. But by hearing and reflecting more, the 'remembrance' gradually becomes firmer and begins to condition sati. Panna can gradually begin to know when there is and isn't sati so that it can know the characteristic of it. Howard likes the 'spiral' analogy to indicate how the hearing, considering, reflecting, remembering and growth of sati and panna develop. I think that it's really only with a growth of sati that the confidence in the value of listening, considering and 'firm remembrance' of dhammas really grows too which again conditions more sati. As understanding grows and becomes firmer, there is more and more confidence that it is only the understanding of such dhammas that matters. .... > Is this along the same lines as, say, the kasina as it relates to the > actual clay device the perception of which leads to the mental object? .... Sarah: Sorry, I'm lost here. .... > S: "This is why talking more about seeing, visible object and other > dhammas can condition sati now. As we read in the Atth. and Vism > (XIV, 141), sati has 'the characteristic of not wobbling' and the > function 'not to forget'. '...like a pillar because it is firmly > founded, or as like a door-keeper because it guards the eye-door, and > so on.' note 64: "'Apilaapana' ('not wobbling') is the steadying of > an object, the remembering and not forgetting it, keeping it as > immovable as a stone instead of letting it go bobbing about like a > pumpkin in water'(Pm 487)." > > This is like the discussion in Sisters where the event of the burning > of the curry becomes object of sa~n~naa and sati 'on and on'. > Anyway, I'd like to hear more about this. .... Sarah: I wouldn't quite put it that 'the event of the burning of the curry becomes the object .....'on and on'. One brief reflection or occurrence in daily life can be a condition for awareness (and understnaing) of various dhammas to arise conditioned by previous 'firm remembrance' of what such dhammas are. The 'not wobbling' analogy is not used to indicate any 'holding' of an object in the sense of a repeated, concentrated focus on it at all. It's used to indicate the quality of sati of firmly being aware when it arises, very naturally 'following' its object - a nama or a rupa. Metta, Sarah *p.s. Thx Connie for the great recent installments - I'm running a little behind the Sisters....puff, puff.....Meanwhile, glad to see you and Colette finding a common sister language:-) ==================== #67720 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 30, 2007 11:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing sarahprocter... Hi Herman (TG, Howard & all), --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi TG, > > It's good to see that you are still posting, and thanks for these > comments. .... S: Agreed. .......... H:> If I'm not mistaken, in the Buddha's description of the All, which is > being discussed in another thread, Nibbana is conspicuous by it's > absence. Which also confirms what you are saying here. Nibbana is not > experienced. .... S: You've all been discussing what is included by the All in the Sabba Sutta, I think. Here's BB's note from the commentary again: From SN 35.23 "Spk: The all (sabba) is fourfold: (i) the all-inclusive all (sabbasabba), i.e. everything knowable, all of which comes into range of the Buddha's knowledge of omniscience; (ii) the all of the sense bases (ayatanasabba), i.e. the phenomena of the fourplanes; (iii) the all of personal identity (sakkayasabba), i.e. the phenomena of the three planes; and (iv) the partial all (padesabba), i.e. the five physical sense objects. Each of these, from (i) to (iv), has a successively narrower range than its predecessor. *In this sutta the all of the sense bases is intended.* The four planes are the three mundane planes (i.e. the sensuous plane, the form plane, and the formless plane) and the supramundane plane (i.e. the four paths, their fruits, and Nibbana)." ***** S: So the 'All' depends on the context of the sutta. In the Sabba Sutta, only those dhammas presently arising can be known as the 'All'. It doesn't include all those dhammas outside of experience, knowable by a Buddha's omniscience. Also, unless nibbana is being experienced now, it is not included. But at moments of enlightenment it is included in the All as 'dhammaayatana'. (lots more under 'Sabba Sutta' in U.P.....Of course, none of this is much use to those who prefer not to read the commentary notes:-)). Metta, Sarah ======== #67721 From: "Joop" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:40 am Subject: Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 And other topics jwromeijn --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Joop (& James), > > (A catching up with Joop's posts as you'll have noted!) > J: Yes, thanks. Always nice to get attention, and especially when it's it's from you. About the authenticity of the Anupada Sutta (MN 111): this and the content of the Sutta itself was more James's theme, I only gave some information. I don't know if this still is a relevant theme to James. To me 'authenticity' is hardly a topic. The old Indians were not interested in historical facts at all (as the Chinese were), so there is always mythical mist on the date of a text; something made more difficult by the 'theological' discussion if Gautama the Buddha literal spoke all the texts of the Tipitaka. I think He did of some but the most are composed later by diligent monks, based on what He teached. And if you (or any reader) can handle this I go one step further - otherwise don't read the next statement. And I think some of these 'diligent monks' were not awakened but rather neurotic in their wish to make a perfect and complete system of the Teachings. About the 'compassion'-theme. Your responses (in 67714 & 67715) are of value to me; I will spend more deep thinking on them. ('Deep thinking' is for me another term for 'contemplation' what is something else as 'meditation) So: thanks and I react later. One quote (of Nyatiloka's Dictionary) already on the 'merit'-aspect: "The Arahats, however, having transcended all life-affirming and rebirth-producing actions, are said to be 'beyond merit and demerit' ". I agree with this statement. Not because this is a official recignized characteristic of arahats but because it's my buddhistic intuition that says the same to me. So: exit the merit-concept. Metta Joop #67722 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (7) sarahprocter... Hi Connie & Sisters Enthusiasts with a penchant for precision of names, --- connie wrote: > > connie: Given the name/spelling change below, I just note that > Paliwords > gives 'wise' r/t 'brave' for dhiira. <...> > RD: VII -- Another Sister Dhiiraa. > > Dhiiraa, brave *93 Sister! who hath valiantly > Thy faculties in noblest culture trained, > Bear to this end thy last incarnate frame, > For thou hast conquered Maara and his host. (7) > > ***** > *93 Her name means 'brave,' 'heroic.' > > ===== > > PRUITT: > > 7. "Viiraa viirehi dhammehi, bhikkhunii bhaavitindriyaa; > dhaareti antima.m deha.m, jetvaa maara.m savaahana.m. > > 7. You are Viiraa because of your heroic (viira) mental states. <...> ..... S: I checked in DPPN under 'Viira' and was directed to 'Dhiira' where they just gave the following: "Dhiiraa Two Theriis of this name are mentioned, both belonging to the Saakiyans of Kapilavatthu. They were members of the Bodhisatta's court, at the time when he became the Buddha. They left home with Pajaapatii Gotamii, entered the Order and became arahants. Thig.6, 7; ThigA.12." .............. S: We have a good friend in Thailand called Viiraa, so now I know the meaning - 'heroic mental states'- because of viriya padhaanata (energetic effort). Thx for adding the Pali verses and so far Pruitt's translations with included Pali terms (or is that your doing?) are proving a winner. Metta, Sarah ======== #67723 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:46 am Subject: Re: Avoiding Effort! philofillet Dear Bhante and all > What, friends, is the effort to overcome? In this case, one does not > accept any thought of sensual lust, ill-will, irritation, or any other > evil and detrimental state that may have arisen! One immediately > dispels it, destroys it, and causes it to vanish right there & then... > This is called the effort to overcome! I like this "one does not accept", but even better I like the "one does not entertain" that is often used in translations. Based on this "enetertain" , I have come up with a fun technique during meditation, or sometimes during daily life - I think there can be a kind of hostility involved in crushing out hating or lustful or otherwise distracting thoughts when one is a beginner with undeveloped understanding. So what I do is think "dozo" - the Japanese word to invite a guest into one's house - but then return to the meditation object. The unwholesome visitor is not sent away by force, but neither is it entertained. It is as if I were cooking dinnner and a guest arrived at an unexpected time. I go back to the stove and let the guest wait in the living room. Needless to say, the guest often disappears. So not sending away by brute force, but refusing to abandon the meditation object in order to entertain the guest. A gentle, non- coercive dynamic. Some guests, of course, have to be sent away by brute force. It is wisdom of a basic discretionary kind developed during meditation that knows which is which, I guess. Inneresting! Metta, Phil #67724 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (7) sarahprocter... Hi Connie & all, Also still on Viiraa, --- connie wrote: >> PRUITT: > > 7. "Viiraa viirehi dhammehi, bhikkhunii bhaavitindriyaa; > dhaareti antima.m deha.m, jetvaa maara.m savaahana.m. > > 7. You are Viiraa because of your heroic (viira) mental states. You are > a > bhikkhunii with developed faculties. Bear your last body, having > conquered > Maara and his mount. .... S: I was also reminded of how K.Sujin always reminds us about viriya as courage, courage to be aware, as indicated in one of Nina's recent Letters on Vipassana: "Volition is not a factor of the eightfold Path. Viriya (energy) is, but it is energy or courage for being aware and developing understanding of the reality which is appearing. It must arise together with right understanding of the eightfold Path in order to perform its function, and it prevents one from becoming disheartened about the development." .... > > 7. You are Viiraa because of your heroic (virehi) mental states means: > because of energetic effor (viriya-padhaanata), the states of the noble > paths are heroic (viira) and overflowing with radiance (teja); with > developed faculties means: the faculties beginning with matured faith. > The > bhikkhunii Viiraa bears her last body having no new birth in the future, > having conquered the Maara of defilement and his mount through [her > conquering of] sensual desire. She indicates herself as though dealing > with another person. .... S: I like 'the noble paths are heroic (viira)' - they take courage. 'One' has to be brave to develop satipatthana. Metta, Sarah p.s More under 'Courage' in U.P. ==================== #67725 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Howard, On 30/01/07, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > To me, the distinction between an un/pleasant bodily sensation and an > > un/pleasant mental sensation is tenuous. I see it less as a useful or > > valid description of a state of affairs, but more as the consequence > > of a particular model of the way things work. > > > You and I are low on the spiritual scale, Herman (;-), and, so, for > us, finding something unpleasant and not liking it (wanting it to "go away") > seem to be one and the same. But I don't think they actually are the same. > I am more interested in the phenomenology of the matter than spiritual ascendency :-) I would love to hear your thoughts on what constitutes (experientially) the differences between bodily and mental feelings. As to un/pleasantness, I suspect this might be based on differences in degree rather than quality. Being touched by a feather and being crushed by a grand piano are merely differences in degrees of similar sensations. As is the difference between being immersed in a warm or boiling bath. I, being quite run-of-the-mill :-), cannot see how un/pleasantness is not already an evaluation of a situation, in terms of aspired-to goals, rather than just a sensation. Un/pleasantness, to me, is suggestive of action. But I'm open to any opposing views. Kind Regards Herman #67726 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Scott, On 30/01/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Oh-oh, being paraphrased... > > H: "For one, it requires a mind/body dualism of sorts, and as Scott > might well say, it is not the body or the mind that experiences, > experience experiences." > > Might I then possibly say that 'experience' is naama? > You may certainly say it, but it does not add any information, in my books. Whether it is said in a discussion that a human being experiences, or a nama experiences, makes no difference at all. As long as the emphasis remains that nama/human IS NOT the object of experience, then it is a Buddhist discussion. "I am not this" always applies. Kind Regards Herman #67727 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Howard and all, > I agree, it is not the only condition. However, it is a necessary and > the primary condition - the one given by the Buddha as "cause". As the Buddha > said: "And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the > craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, > relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for > becoming, craving for non-becoming." > -------------------------------------- I am convinced that there is no consciousness without craving, because all consciousness is a rebirth, a further becoming. Can anyone tell me what a consciousness not rooted in craving for becoming would look like? Kind Regards Herman #67728 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Sarah, > Also, unless nibbana is being experienced now, it is not included. But at > moments of enlightenment it is included in the All as 'dhammaayatana'. > > (lots more under 'Sabba Sutta' in U.P.....Of course, none of this is much > use to those who prefer not to read the commentary notes:-)). > To me, the mention of the experience of nibbana is like the mention of a square circle. It cannot be. Perhaps I do not read commentaries because they insist square circles are there. ripe for the taking :-) Kind Regards Herman #67729 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing scottduncan2 Hi Herman, I like this: H: "As long as the emphasis remains that nama/human IS NOT the object of experience, then it is a Buddhist discussion. 'I am not this' always applies." This, I think, is reference to 'own nature' and, in particular, to a certain frequent misunderstanding of the concept. I don't read it at all to imply any 'self-reflexive' capacity. This need not be misunderstood in this way. As you say, "'I am not this' always applies". There is no agent. For one to say, however, that there can be no specific function or aspect of a dhamma seems untenable. I don't think that, for any particular mental factor, having a specific function in any way suggests, implies, or need even seem as if any sort of 'selfhood' is to be understood thereby. The impermanence of each moment of consciousness precludes this, not to mention the complexity of the arising. I was just reading in The Saama~n~naphala Sutta and its Commentaries (Bh. Bodhi): "HE UNDERSTANDS AS IT REALLY IS 'THIS IS SUFFERING' "CY. He understands as it really is, by penetration of its specific essential characteristic, the entire truth of suffering thus, 'There is this much suffering, and none beyond this.' And he understands as it really is, by penetration of its specific essential characteristic, the craving which produces that suffering thus, 'This is the origin of suffering'; and the state by the attainment of which both suffering and its origin cease, (namely) Nibbaana, their non-occurence, thus, 'This is the cessation of suffering'; and the noble path which brings about its attainment thus, 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.' "N.SUB. CY. 'By penetration of its specific essential characteristic' (sarasalakkha.napa.tivedha): the commentator shows that to understand 'as it really is' means to understand by penetration of the specific essential characteristic. The essence (rasa) is the specific nature (sabhaava) which is to be 'tasted' or 'known'. Something's own essence is its specific essence (sarasa), which is itself the characteristic. Thus, the above phrase means: by the penetrating of that (characteristic) without delusion. And 'penetrating of that (characteristic) without delusion' (in regard to the first noble truth) means the occurence of knowledge in such a way that afterwards there is no delusion in delimitting the specific identity (saruupa), etc. of the truth of suffering. Thence it is said: 'he undestands as it really is.'" "Note 60. The word rasa, used in the commentaries to mean essence, or often, the function of a thing, originally had the sense of tasted, and is in fact so used in the suttas as the object of tongue-consciousness." Sincerely, Scott. #67730 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:12 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the clarifying remarks: Sarah: "I think this 'firm remembrance' accumulates like any other wholesome qualities. As we are reading with the Sisters, the hearing, considering and 'firm remembrance' has been a growing process over aeons. Just in this lifetime, when we first hear the teachings, the 'remembrance' of what we hear/consider is very weak, very little. But by hearing and reflecting more, the 'remembrance' gradually becomes firmer and begins to condition sati. Panna can gradually begin to know when there is and isn't sati so that it can know the characteristic of it. I think that it's really only with a growth of sati that the confidence in the value of listening, considering and 'firm remembrance' of dhammas really grows too which again conditions more sati. As understanding grows and becomes firmer, there is more and more confidence that it is only the understanding of such dhammas that matters." Yes, a building-up sort of thing. Sarah: "I wouldn't quite put it that 'the event of the burning of the curry becomes the object .....'on and on'. One brief reflection or occurrence in daily life can be a condition for awareness (and understanding) of various dhammas to arise conditioned by previous 'firm remembrance' of what such dhammas are. The 'not wobbling' analogy is not used to indicate any 'holding' of an object in the sense of a repeated, concentrated focus on it at all. It's used to indicate the quality of sati of firmly being aware when it arises, very naturally 'following' its object - a nama or a rupa." Again, yes. There is no need to misunderstand these processes and think to create a 'practise' out of them, such as purposive recollection and reflection or concentrated focus with the aim being to make something else happen. Sincerely, Scott. #67731 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing sarahprocter... James, More cittas in a twist here - --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: Yes, except to be accurate, we'd have to point out that there are > always mind door consciousness moments in between each of the sense door > consciousness moments. .... S: While I'm untwisting - better to say 'in between each series of the sense door consciousness moments' - or simply, always mind door processes in between each sense door process (vithi). And as you've been writing about bhavanga cittas recently, we could further add that there are always bhavanga cittas in between each of these processes. I think you'd like Dr Mehm Tin Mon's book 'Buddha Abhidhamma' which some friends quote here (like Han and Rob M if I recall). Lots of Abhidhamma detail along the lines of the Ab. Sangaha without the Pali. I believe it's on-line too. (Also more under 'Processes' in U.P.) ... Now for the serious cittas in a twist: > S: It means the consciousness stream is never-ending UNLESS there are > particular conditions in place for it to be never-ending. .... S: LOL - delete the second 'never'!! Metta, Sarah ======== #67732 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing scottduncan2 Hi Mike, This is worth considering: M: "I don't know if this is what Howard meant or not but it brings up a point I think important. A lot of people (maybe westerners in particular, not sure) come to the Dhamma for relief from domanassa. Although there is much in the Dhamma that does alleviate domanassa, both temporarily and permanently, the goal is not this relief but the end of rebirth. Impossible to overstate the importance of this difference in my opinion." I think that 'goals', unless understood properly (or rather considered from the point of view of anatta) can be misleading. If there is relief from domanassa stemming from an increasing understanding of things due to considering the Dhamma, this is just a natural consequence. Seeking to reduce 'lack of pleasure' is only seeking 'pleasure'. And seeing domanassa as 'mine' leads to misunderstanding the whole nature of things, which gives rise to ideas about 'my practise' and 'my influence' over 'my following' of 'my Path'. All wrong, methinks. Sincerely, Scott. #67733 From: connie Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:13 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (10) nichiconn Friends, This is the last of the "Tissaaditheriigaathaava.n.nanaa" set (vv 5-10). X -- Upasamaa. text: 10. "Upasame tare ogha.m, maccudheyya.m suduttara.m; dhaarehi antima.m deha.m, jetvaa maara.m savaahanan"ti.- Gaathaayo abhaasi.msu. RD: Upasamaa! cross thou serene and calm *98 The raging difficult Flood where death doth reign. Bear to this end thy last incarnate frame, For thou hast vanquished Maara and his host. (10) PRUITT: 10. Upasamaa, you should cross the flood [of ignorance], the realm of death that is very hard to cross. Bear your last body, having conquered Maara and his mount. 10. The word Upasamaa is a vocative. You should cross the flood [of ignorance] (ogha), the realm of death (maccu-dheyya) which is hard to cross means as follows: the realm of death means in this context: death (maccu) is contained here; very hard to cross (suduttara.m) means: quite hard to cross over (su.t.thu duttara.m) without the requisites of accumulated good actions. You should cross (tare) the great flood of continued existence (sa.msaara-mah'-ogha.m) [means:] you should cross over (tareyyaasi) by means of the ship of the noble paths. Bear your last body (dhaarehi antima.m deha.m) means: because of the crossing of it [ie, the round of rebirths], be one who wears her last body (antima-deha-dhara). This is the meaning. Tissaaditheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Ni.t.thitaa pa.thamavaggava.n.nanaa. Here ends the commentary on the verse of [another] Therii Tissaa, etc. Here ends the commentary on the first section. ***** *98 Upasamaa = tranquil, calm. ======= c. #67734 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:17 am Subject: Gaps: Unecessary but Interesting (Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and James) - In a message dated 1/31/07 1:50:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi James (& Howard), > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > >The citta theory, however, does hold some problems for me because of > >the zero duration of the cittas and the `unaccounted for' gap between > >them which must exist for them to be separate. > .... > S: Why must there be any gap? > ========================= What I can tell you from the mathematical perspective, Sarah, is this: 1) If the "time line" is one with a topology different from the ususal one, which IS possible, there would be no necessity for a gap, but 2) with the usual line, the so called real line, and based on the commentarial presumption of a mindstate not being a single-point event but occuring during a (brief) interval having three stages, of arising, stasis, and decline, gaps would be required - but such a gap needn't be anything more than a single, timeless, zero-dimensional (and zero-durational) point that would go fully unnoticed except by a highly advanced ariyan. It might be what some with a mystical bent would call a "moment in infinity". It is questionable, of course, whether such a point-moment is to be considered a "gap". The possible existence of such "gaps" has some interest, it seems to me, in that such a "gap" might serve as "portal" for realization (a path moment), if "walked through". (This business is just idle speculation, of course, without either experiential or textual basis.) With metta, Howard #67735 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/31/07 2:34:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: So the 'All' depends on the context of the sutta. In the Sabba Sutta, > only those dhammas presently arising can be known as the 'All'. It doesn't > include all those dhammas outside of experience, knowable by a Buddha's > omniscience. > > Also, unless nibbana is being experienced now, it is not included. But at > moments of enlightenment it is included in the All as 'dhammaayatana'. > ======================= The foregoing strikes me as an attempt to avoid the Buddha's explicit cautioning "Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." With metta, Howard #67736 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/31/07 6:24:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > On 30/01/07, upasaka@... wrote: > >Hi, Herman - > >>To me, the distinction between an un/pleasant bodily sensation and an > >>un/pleasant mental sensation is tenuous. I see it less as a useful or > >>valid description of a state of affairs, but more as the consequence > >>of a particular model of the way things work. > >> > > You and I are low on the spiritual scale, Herman (;-), and, so, for > >us, finding something unpleasant and not liking it (wanting it to "go > away") > >seem to be one and the same. But I don't think they actually are the same. > > > > I am more interested in the phenomenology of the matter than spiritual > ascendency :-) I would love to hear your thoughts on what constitutes > (experientially) the differences between bodily and mental feelings. > > As to un/pleasantness, I suspect this might be based on differences in > degree rather than quality. Being touched by a feather and being > crushed by a grand piano are merely differences in degrees of similar > sensations. As is the difference between being immersed in a warm or > boiling bath. I, being quite run-of-the-mill :-), cannot see how > un/pleasantness is not already an evaluation of a situation, in terms > of aspired-to goals, rather than just a sensation. Un/pleasantness, to > me, is suggestive of action. But I'm open to any opposing views. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I gave my position that suffering is the "second dart". That's the way I look at this. ----------------------------------------- > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > ========================= With metta, Howard #67737 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:59 am Subject: listening. nilovg Hi Howard, taking up our old thread. But how are the biceps now, back to tennis? Very soon, in April it is time for your cruise. We can continue our dialogue, but the amount of posts is very great. We can also correspond once a week if you like, just as you do with Jon. I went over our old posts and often the same points come back. But do insist if you are not satisfied! I select some points I see as the essence. It all concerns the practice, what is it. Only listening? ----------- H: Thus it seems to me that you are > saying that the Buddhadhamma consists of the Buddha's report on what > he found to be the nature of things plus the instruction to study > that report and think about it. That is not what the Buddhadhamma is > understood to be anywhere else, as far as I know, and as far as I'm > concerned reading the Sutta Pitaka makes it crystal clear that that > is not the Dhamma. That perspective turns the Dhamma into a species > of gnani (contemplative) yoga, IMO. > --------- > N: We have to listen, develop understanding and apply the Dhamma in > daily life. Developing all the perfections, that is the practice, > the application of the teachings. ---------- N: You say, ' to study that report and think about it.' No, not just thinking about it. Sudying with sati sampaja~n`n the dhamma appearing now, in order to see it as just dhamma, a reality that arises because of its own condiitons and that nobody can create. It all begins with listening. I quote from a sutta: M II, no 95, Cankiisutta. It is long, for the whole sutta: We can discuss our points along with this sutta, if you like. There is a passage about striving, and how do you and I see this? I wait for your reactions. ------------------ 'Good Gotama, now, I know the realising of the truth. How is this attained? Good Gotama, teach me that attainment and realization.' 'Bharadvàja, practising, developing and making much of those same things lead to the realization of the truth. I declare that the realization of the truth is this much.' 'Good Gotama, now I know the realising of the truth. What things are of much help for realising the truth?' 'Bharadvàja, the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth. If not for the fourfold endeavour, the realisation of the truth is not. Therefore the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the realisation of the truth.' 'Good Gotama, for the fourfold endeavour, what thing is of much help?' 'Bharadvàja, weighing [1] is of much help for the fourfold endeavour. Without the weighing there is no fourfold effort, therefore weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour.' 'Good Gotama, for weighing, what thing is of much help?' 'Bharadvàja, struggling [2] is of much help for weighing. Without that struggle there is no weighing, therefore that struggle is of much help for weighing' 'Good Gotama, for struggling, what thing is of much help?' 'Bharadvàja, interest, is of much help for struggling. Without that interest, there is no struggle, therefore that interest is of much help for struggling.' 'Good Gotama, for interest, what thing is of much help?' 'Bharadvàja, rightful speculation [3] is of much help for interest. Without the rightful speculating mind, there is no interest, therefore the rightful speculative mind is of much help for interest.' 'Good Gotama, for a rightful speculative mind, what thing is of much help?' 'Bharadvàja, examining the meanings in the Teaching, is of much help for a rightful speculative mind. Without that examining of meanings in the Teaching, there is norightful speculation, therefore examining meanings in the Teaching is of much help for a speculative mind.' 'Good Gotama, for examining meanings in the Teaching, what thing is of much help?' 'Bharadvàja, bearing the Teaching in the mind, is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching. Without bearing the Teaching in mind, there is no examination of meanings, therefore bearing the Teaching in mind is of much help for examining meanings in the Teaching.' 'Good Gotama, for bearing the Teaching in the mind, what thing is of much help?' 'Bharadvàja, listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind. Without listening to the Teaching, there is no bearing of the Teaching, therefore listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind.' 'Good Gotama, for listening to the Teaching, what thing is of much help?' 'Bharadvàja, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching. Without lending ear there is no listening to the Teaching, therefore, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching.' 'Good Gotama, for lending ear, what thing is of much help?' 'Bharadvàja, associating, is of much help for lending ear. Without association there is no lending ears, therefore associating is of much help for lending ear.' 'Good Gotama, for associating, what thing is of much help?' 'Bharadvàja, approaching, is of much help for associating Without an approach there is no association, therefore approaching is of much help for associating.' 'Good Gotama, for approaching, what thing is of much help?' 'Bharadvàja, faith, is of much help for approaching Without faith there is no approaching, therefore faith is of much help for approaching.'... [1] Weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour (padhànassa kho bharadvàja tulanà bahukàrà). The fourfold endeavours are pushing the mind forward earnestly, to dispel arisen demerit to promote non arising of not arisen demerit To promote the arising of not arisen merit and to see the development and completion of arisen merit. For this kind of mental work to happen, we should mentally weigh our activities by body speech and mind. We should be aware of the activities at the six doors of mental contact. [2] Struggling is of much help for weighing (tulanàya kho bharadvàja ussàho bahukàro hoti). This is a mental struggle. It consists of thinking and pondering to sort out the correct and comes to be right thinking. [3] Right speculation is of much help for interest (chandassa kho Bharadvàja dhammanijjhànakhanti bahukàrà). Right speculation falls to the category of right thinking. So this is falling to the Noble Eightfold path, with right view at the foremost. -------- N: The Co. mentions siila and samaadhi in connection with exaimining the teaching. As to weighing up: considering the three characteristics of impermanence, etc. As to struggling, energy or effort, this is connected with Magga. As to the the realisation of the truth: the realisation of the ultimate truth, he clearly realizes nibbaana and he eradicates defilements by pa~n~naa. He realizes magga and phala, fruition. --------- Nina. #67738 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:40 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Ch 23, 1. Lokuttara Cittas. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 23 Lokuttara Cittas The Abhidhamma teaches us about different kinds of wholesome cittas. There are kåmåvacara kusala cittas (kusala cittas of the sensuous plane of consciousness, mahå-kusala cittas), rúpåvacara kusala cittas (rúpa-jhånacittas) and arúpåvacara kusala cittas (arúpa-jhånacittas). All these types of citta are kusala, but they do not eradicate the latent tendencies of defilements. Only lokuttara kusala cittas, magga- cittas, eradicate the latent tendencies of defilements. When all defilements are eradicated completely there will be an end to the cycle of birth and death. We may wonder whether lokuttara kusala cittas really eradicate defilements so that they never arise again. There are many defilements. We are full of lobha, dosa and moha. We have avarice, jealousy, worry, doubt, conceit and many other defilements. The clinging to the self is deeply rooted: we take our mind and our body for self. It is hard to understand how all these defilements can be eradicated. Defilements can be eradicated and there is a Path leading to it, but we have accumulated defilements to such an extent that they cannot be eradicated all at once. Diììhi, wrong view, has to be eradicated first; so long as we take realities for self there cannot be eradication of any defilement. There are four stages of enlightenment: the stages of the sotåpanna (streamwinner), the sakadågåmí (once-returner), the anågåmí (no- returner) and the arahat. At each of these stages the lokuttara kusala citta, the magga-citta, arises which experiences nibbåna and eradicates defilements. The sotåpanna, the ariyan who has attained the first stage of enlightenment, has eradicated diììhi completely, so that it can never arise again, but he has not eradicated all defilements. Defilements are eradicated stage by stage and only when arahatship has been attained all defilements have been eradicated. People may wonder how one can know that one has attained enlightenment. The lokuttara citta is accompanied by paññå (wisdom) which has been developed in vipassanå. One does not attain enlightenment without having developed insight-wisdom, vipassanå. --------- Nina. #67739 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:42 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 6, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Sarah said to Khun Sujin that it is more difficult to develop mettå when we are tired because then we are more easily irritated and annoyed. Although we see the value of mettå we do not have enough confidence in kusala; we have no conditions for kusala at the moment we want to have it. Khun Sujin answered that the idea of self is in the way all the time. We attach too much importance to the way we feel. Tiredness is no reason for being angry, we should develop mettå in order to think less of ourselves. We need also the perfections of generosity, of síla and of detachment or renunciation (nekkhamma) so that we shall be less selfish and more considerate for other people's wellbeing. All the perfections should be developed, they are a necessary support for the arising of sati and paññå in our daily life. Sati may not often arise, but when there is patience we do not mind it if understanding develops only little by little. There is conceit when we believe that we should be "somebody with great wisdom". We should follow Såriputta's example who compared himself with a dustrag, a useless rag without any value. If we do not consider ourselves "somebody", but rather a "nobody", it will prevent us from pretending, even to ourselves, that we are more advanced than we in reality are. We also need the perfection of truthfulness (sacca) to keep us on the right track. We have to be sincere, truthful to reality. Do we want to avoid being aware of akusala? We have to be aware of it in order to know our true accumulations. If we are not aware of akusala we shall take what is akusala for kusala. We need to develop the perfection of equanimity, upekkhå, in order to learn to accept with kusala citta the vicissitudes of life. Praise and blame are only realities which arise because of their own conditions; in reality people are not the cause of praise or blame. When people do wrong to us we can develop mettå if we see the value of mettå. Instead of having aversion about people's bad points we shall try to remember their good qualities. If they have none there can be compassion or there can be equanimity. Equanimity can arise when we remember that the real cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is not a person but our own kamma. We should carefully consider the different perfections and then we shall be reminded to develop them in our daily life, they are necessary in each situation. Khun Sujin said that while she prepares lectures for the radio she needs many perfections, such as mettå, patience, energy and equanimity. When there is equanimity she does not feel hurt when people do not want to listen to her or when they criticize her. ******* Nina. #67740 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] listening. m_nease Hi Nina (and Howard), Wonderful citation Nina, thanks, very useful, also and especially for the commentary notes. Do you know, are the footnotes the translator's, or...? mike #67741 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] listening. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/31/07 10:06:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > taking up our old thread. But how are the biceps now, back to tennis? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks for asking! :-) No, not back to tennis yet. My shoulder & bicep had been feeling much better until Jan 24, when the physical therapists pushed me a bit too hard in one session (with a tough workout including pushups), and now it has gotten painful again. I hope no damage was done. I see the surgeon a week from today. ------------------------------------- > Very soon, in April it is time for your cruise. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, we have decided to cancel that. It is a bit too much for us, in several respects, to do at this point. We'll probably opt for something a bit less ambitious, and we'll do it in August, which is actually when out anniversary (our 40th) falls. Maybe we'll do something with our sons & their families. In any case, it'll be in the U.S. ------------------------------------- We can continue our > > dialogue, but the amount of posts is very great. We can also > correspond once a week if you like, just as you do with Jon. > I went over our old posts and often the same points come back. But do > insist if you are not satisfied! I select some points I see as the > essence. It all concerns the practice, what is it. Only listening? > ----------- > H: Thus it seems to me that you are > >saying that the Buddhadhamma consists of the Buddha's report on what > >he found to be the nature of things plus the instruction to study > >that report and think about it. That is not what the Buddhadhamma is > >understood to be anywhere else, as far as I know, and as far as I'm > >concerned reading the Sutta Pitaka makes it crystal clear that that > >is not the Dhamma. That perspective turns the Dhamma into a species > >of gnani (contemplative) yoga, IMO. > >--------- > >N: We have to listen, develop understanding and apply the Dhamma in > >daily life. Developing all the perfections, that is the practice, > >the application of the teachings. > > ---------- > N: You say, ' to study that report and think about it.' No, not just > thinking about it. Sudying with sati sampaja~n`n the dhamma appearing > now, in order to see it as just dhamma, a reality that arises because > of its own condiitons and that nobody can create. ------------------------------------------ Howard: So, since it cannot be commanded, how is this any different from what I said: studying the report and thinking about it? There is no guarantee that your studying of it (or my studying of it) will be "with sati sampaja~n`n". It seems to me that this is a meager notion of practice, and very far from the fullness of the Buddha's practice teachings. -------------------------------------------- > It all begins with listening. I quote from a sutta: M II, no 95, > Cankiisutta. It is long, for the whole sutta: > Majjhima2/095-canki-e1.html > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: That link doesn't work for me. There is an excerpt on ATI, but since it is such a lengthy sutta, why not quote the parts you wish to point to? BTW, I also think that practice begins with listening, for that is how one learns what and how to practice! -------------------------------------------- > > We can discuss our points along with this sutta, if you like. There > is a passage about striving, and how do you and I see this? I wait > for your reactions. > ------------------ > 'Good Gotama, now, I know the realising of the truth. How is this > attained? Good Gotama, teach me that attainment and realization.' > > 'Bharadvàja, practising, developing and making much of those same > things lead to the realization of the truth. I declare that the > realization of the truth is this much.' > > 'Good Gotama, now I know the realising of the truth. What things are > of much help for realising the truth?' > > 'Bharadvàja, the fourfold endeavour is of much help for the > realisation of the truth. If not for the fourfold endeavour, the > realisation of the truth is not. Therefore the fourfold endeavour is > of much help for the realisation of the truth.' > > 'Good Gotama, for the fourfold endeavour, what thing is of much help?' > > 'Bharadvàja, weighing [1] is of much help for the fourfold endeavour. > Without the weighing there is no fourfold effort, therefore weighing > is of much help for the fourfold endeavour.' > > 'Good Gotama, for weighing, what thing is of much help?' > > 'Bharadvàja, struggling [2] is of much help for weighing. Without > that struggle there is no weighing, therefore that struggle is of > much help for weighing' > > 'Good Gotama, for struggling, what thing is of much help?' > > 'Bharadvàja, interest, is of much help for struggling. Without that > interest, there is no struggle, therefore that interest is of much > help for struggling.' > > 'Good Gotama, for interest, what thing is of much help?' > > 'Bharadvàja, rightful speculation [3] is of much help for interest. > Without the rightful speculating mind, there is no interest, > therefore the rightful speculative mind is of much help for interest.' > > 'Good Gotama, for a rightful speculative mind, what thing is of much > help?' > > 'Bharadvàja, examining the meanings in the Teaching, is of much help > for a rightful speculative mind. Without that examining of meanings > in the Teaching, there is norightful speculation, therefore examining > meanings in the Teaching is of much help for a speculative mind.' > > 'Good Gotama, for examining meanings in the Teaching, what thing is > of much help?' > > 'Bharadvàja, bearing the Teaching in the mind, is of much help for > examining meanings in the Teaching. Without bearing the Teaching in > mind, there is no examination of meanings, therefore bearing the > Teaching in mind is of much help for examining meanings in the > Teaching.' > > 'Good Gotama, for bearing the Teaching in the mind, what thing is of > much help?' > > 'Bharadvàja, listening to the Teaching, is of much help for bearing > the Teaching in the mind. Without listening to the Teaching, there is > no bearing of the Teaching, therefore listening to the Teaching, is > of much help for bearing the Teaching in the mind.' > > 'Good Gotama, for listening to the Teaching, what thing is of much > help?' > > 'Bharadvàja, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the > Teaching. Without lending ear there is no listening to the Teaching, > therefore, lending ear, is of much help for listening to the Teaching.' > > 'Good Gotama, for lending ear, what thing is of much help?' > > 'Bharadvàja, associating, is of much help for lending ear. Without > association there is no lending ears, therefore associating is of > much help for lending ear.' > > 'Good Gotama, for associating, what thing is of much help?' > > 'Bharadvàja, approaching, is of much help for associating Without an > approach there is no association, therefore approaching is of much > help for associating.' > > 'Good Gotama, for approaching, what thing is of much help?' > > 'Bharadvàja, faith, is of much help for approaching Without faith > there is no approaching, therefore faith is of much help for > approaching.'... > > [1] Weighing is of much help for the fourfold endeavour (padhànassa > kho bharadvàja tulanà bahukàrà). The fourfold endeavours are pushing > the mind forward earnestly, to dispel arisen demerit to promote non > arising of not arisen demerit To promote the arising of not arisen > merit and to see the development and completion of arisen merit. For > this kind of mental work to happen, we should mentally weigh our > activities by body speech and mind. We should be aware of the > activities at the six doors of mental contact. > > [2] Struggling is of much help for weighing (tulanàya kho bharadvàja > ussàho bahukàro hoti). This is a mental struggle. It consists of > thinking and pondering to sort out the correct and comes to be right > thinking. > > [3] Right speculation is of much help for interest (chandassa kho > Bharadvàja dhammanijjhànakhanti bahukàrà). Right speculation falls to > the category of right thinking. So this is falling to the Noble > Eightfold path, with right view at the foremost. > -------- --------------------------------------- Howard: The foregoing seems clear and uncontroversial to me. What is there to discuss about it? ---------------------------------------- > N: The Co. mentions siila and samaadhi in connection with exaimining > the teaching. As to weighing up: considering the three > characteristics of impermanence, etc. > As to struggling, energy or effort, this is connected with Magga. > As to the the realisation of the truth: the realisation of the > ultimate truth, he clearly realizes nibbaana and he eradicates > defilements by pa~n~naa. He realizes magga and phala, fruition. > --------- > Nina. > > ===================== With metta, Howard #67742 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (7) nilovg Hi Sarah, BTW Alan is very much involved with the Perfections which may be ready in about three weeks. Lodewijk is collecting addresses of centers etc. and will be very active with the sending of the books, also to Thailand. Nina. Op 31-jan-2007, om 11:35 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: I like 'the noble paths are heroic (viira)' - they take courage. > 'One' > has to be brave to develop satipatthana. #67743 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (1) nilovg Dear Connie and friends, The Co. to D iii 250: The seeing of him of the Ten Powers (the Buddha), the Sangha, this is the seeing abover all: dassanaanuttariya.m. Hearing the Buddha's words, the Tipi.taka, that is the hearing above all (tepi.taka-buddha-vacana-savana.m). Nina. Op 29-jan-2007, om 12:04 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Or alternatively, the eye base and ear base are taught first > among the internal bases because of their great helpfulness as > [respective] causes for the Incomparable of Seeing and the > Incomparable of > Hearing (see D iii 250). #67744 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Roots egberdina Hi KenH (and Mike), On 31/01/07, ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > Howard recently referred to "parlour talk," a term I find very > helpful. Until we decide on which particular teaching we are going to > accept and follow, all talk can only be parlour talk. > I don't understand why you see it as necessary to adopt yourself out, wholesale, to a teacher. Nor would I think that a teacher who accepted this sort of behaviour from a student would be a teacher worth his salt. You and the teacher are never going to get away from the fact that, no matter how you are instructed, it is always going to become your understanding, and not a perfect replica of the one true teaching. > > In parlour talk, there is no set definition of (for example) "faith." > And so, while it is Herman's turn to talk, faith is a dirty word. > Similarly, while it is Herman's - or anyone else's - turn to talk, > "reality" means what the speaker intends it to mean ('nothing more and > nothing less.') > > That's not good enough for me; I want order. I want our terms to be > defined and, ideally, I want everyone in the discussion to stick > strictly to the accepted definitions. > I understand what you are saying here. > -------------------- > H: > First of all, in having selected the Buddha as the explainer of > the world, there is no recognition of the role that you have played in > this selection, Ken. > --------------------- > > So what? Surely, the time to worry about that is *before* accepting > the Buddha and his teaching. Once that acceptance has been genuinely > made there can be no hovering back and forth. Otherwise, the > acceptance is no acceptance at all. > When the Buddha was alive, he may have accepted you as a follower, if you had asked. But he certainly hasn't asked if he could be your teacher, so there is no sense in which you accept him. But this is just nit-picking on my behalf. The fact remains that Buddhism is not one unified stream of thought, it is many streamlets, and you are navigating through the maze, and selecting what you will take on board, and what you won't. And if you have the attitude, as you seem to do, that once having chosen something you cannot re-evaluate it, or even discard it, then this is very much an eyes-wide shut approach, an approach that is hell-bent on finding it's object of faith. Which renders Buddhism impotent, because it is no longer in the service of any goal, and it's success or failure cannot be measured. It simply means that "KenH is a Buddhist of this and that persuasion, and that's all there is to it". As Mike pointed out, Buddhism purports to secure for it's followers an end to the cycle of rebirths. If you have already assumed the success of the mission, by faith, then THAT renders your future quite pointless. > ---------------------------------- > H: > The arrogance comes from the presumption that > you, KenH, have the wherewithal to make an informed choice as to who > is best able to explain the world. There is a complete denial of the > superior role that you have played in this process. You are the > committtee who was cast a discerning glance at the proposals in front > of you, and you have deemed the Buddha to be the worthy applicant. > ---------------------------------- > > The teaching of anatta answers that objection: If the teaching is > heard, it is heard because of conditions, not because of sentient beings. Statements about conditions are beyond the range of the All, are they not? Why make them? You put yourself on the same footing as scientists here, who might make bold proclamations about everything ensuing from the Big Bang, or some other nonsense. > > ------------------------------------------------ > H: > Not > only that, you determine at each step of the way what the Buddha has > meant by each statement that he has made. It is you, Ken, always you > and noone else, who puts the meaning into the sentences. > ------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for the vote of confidence, Herman. :-) But, according to this > Teaching, it is due to conditions, not to 'me.' > That tidbit of metaphysics doesn't alter anything, but, does it? If you find yourself walking down the street to the shops, reciting to yourself that this is due to conditions, this will also no doubt be due to conditions. And, if you encounter someone who starts to hit you, and you ask him to stop, and he says "Oh foolish man, this is not me, this is due to conditions", do you bow down before him, and ask, "who is your teacher that I might worship him"? (You're supposed to answer "no" here, and wonder how an appeal to conditions is any different to an appeal to God ) > ----------------------------- > H: > Because, as > you well realise from the discussions on sites like these, the meaning > of the sentences is not at all a given, or universally acknowledged. > So, in fact, it is you who is the explainer of the world, KenH, but > you hide behind the Buddha, and make him your puppet, the one who > speaks and acts for you. > -------------------------------- > > We must see conditionality 'everywhere and in all things.' As I said before, conditionality is beyond the All. You'll never see one single solitary condition. If you're seeing conditions, you are thinking. I see no substantial difference between parlour talk and parlour thought, do you? Cheers, Ken Kind Regards Herman #67745 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Scott, A question for you. On 31/01/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Hi Herman, > > I like this: > > H: "As long as the emphasis remains that nama/human IS NOT the object > of experience, then it is a Buddhist discussion. 'I am not this' > always applies." > > > I don't think that, for any particular mental factor, having a > specific function in any way suggests, implies, or need even seem as > if any sort of 'selfhood' is to be understood thereby. The > impermanence of each moment of consciousness precludes this, not to > mention the complexity of the arising. > Given the momentary nature of nama, and that nama is not the object it experiences, on what basis can anything be said about the im/permanence or otherwise of the object of nama? Kind Regards Herman #67746 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:55 pm Subject: A bit more about compassion egberdina Hi All, I am wondering if there are any acts which can truly be called compassionate in the Buddhist scheme of things. For in the absence of perfect knowledge, an absence in which we all share, there is no telling what the consequences of our deeds will be. Is it better to let a being die in abject misery, with the possibility that their next birth will see them entering the stream, or to save them, risking that they will fall into some horrendously unwholesome deeds, following on from which they will suffer in the worst hell for a million years? Who would know? On the other hand, a person not afflicted by thoughts of deterministic conditionality and endless rebirth can confidently act in their life towards their fellow man. One can help a person who cannot help themself to a point where they can assume responsibility for their own actions. Kind Regards Herman It would be an act of great compassion to help free a person bound by views of deterministic conditionality and endless rebirth from the shackles of such a view. In that sense, the Buddha was indeed compassionate, because that is all he sought to do. #67747 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' ksheri3 Good Day Scott, Hope ya don't mind me butting in but I want to start applying some things I've been reading about so that I can better internalize them. Hope your seatbelt is fastened and remember, our insurance company requires that all participants keep their hands and arms in the car until the ride comes to a hault. Off we go. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > > Yes, a building-up sort of thing. > colette: I had/have problems with this psychology (it's my Deconstructionist side showing itself) since you're QUANTIFYING something that does not exist, "building-up" I see as ACQUISITION. Wang Yangming took the "a priori" position believing that a person KNOWS what it RIGHT and what is WRONG at birth. Therefore, this KNOWLEDGE came with the product that we conventionally refer to as a baby, THUS, I question, CAME FROM WHERE? For instance if you buy your computer from a store the computer comes preassembled and ready to go: see PATH, it has it's memory programmed before you get the product or baby. Well, the microchip is what I'm refering to thus we must ask Intel if they can do a better job of manufacturing microchips since my baby or product isn't programmed the way I like it and I cannot employ my baby or product the way I want to. (Lets try to stay on Yangming's concepts here I know what I said). How did this chip automatically perform certain functions without my directions, orders, dictates, etc? I'm trying to focus on the concept of the Chinese (Wangming) that a person can have knowledge without/prior to corresponding action. This, IMO, is nothing less than the actions of a sabatuer, a terrorist, since it GIVES RISE TO CREATIONISM. Lets do our best to keep the bible thumpers out of our house here. > Sarah: "I wouldn't quite put it that 'the event of the burning of the > curry becomes the object .....'on and on'. One brief reflection or > occurrence in daily life can be a condition for awareness (and > understanding) of various dhammas to arise conditioned by previous > 'firm remembrance' of what such dhammas are. The 'not wobbling' > analogy is not used to indicate any 'holding' of an object in the > sense of a repeated, concentrated focus on it at all. It's > used to indicate the quality of sati of firmly being aware when it > arises, very naturally 'following' its object - a nama or a rupa." > > Again, yes. There is no need to misunderstand these processes and > think to create a 'practise' out of them, such as purposive > recollection and reflection or concentrated focus with the aim being > to make something else happen. colette: here you've lossed me. Think of our friend the ASSEMBLY LINE which is illustrated fairily well by the manufacturing process. This is a step by step CONDITIONING of sorts? Misunderstanding processes is certainly a cause of something but it was first the effect from something other. How can you be absolutely sure, absolutely certain THAT within your microprocessor, brain, you have not misunderstood something and were only given more rupa as a gratifying way for you to accept your misunderstanding as a normal REALITY since this means that the truth is a lie, the misunderstanding is welcomed as UNDERSTANDING? Sarah says: One brief reflection or > occurrence in daily life can be a condition for awareness (and > understanding) of various dhammas to arise conditioned by previous > 'firm remembrance' of what such dhammas are. colette: well, if the product baught and sold on the open market called a computer or baby, comes fully functional and WITHOUT EXPERIENCE then I've gotta ask sarah about this "previous 'firm remembrance'" since that would make the product I have "used goods" So you see Scott, there is a big use and application for misunderstanding. We certainly can find this as the norm, the status quo, in the educational systems of the USA. Only the teachers can stop the assembly line yet do they not accept payment from the Athletic Dept. so that an athlete can continue to "win the big one", ;-), or at least continue advertising dollars funding extra- carricular activities. ;-o Scott says: > Again, yes. There is no need to misunderstand these processes and > think to create a 'practise' out of them, such as purposive > recollection and reflection colette: EXPERIENCE IS THE BEST TEACHER no? What do you do in meditation if not RECOLLECT AND/OR REFLECT? Have you ever tried to maintain certain hours of the day for meditation? or a fixed amount of time for meditation? or concentrated focus colette: this is an elementary form of meditation in the training of the mind. The concentrated focus is there so that you can practice the different YOGAS required in meditation. Meditation is a deep subject which requires the asanas, mudras, etc. but I digress, we speak of the mental activities that you, the aspirant, is trying to obtain control over. Ya gotta start somewhere so why not try developing a concentrated or controled form of meditation so that you can recognize YOUR OWN MIND'S characteristics, tricks, etc.? It takes time in position to get a handle on it since the mind is so multifaceted. But isn't that why there are diffent monestaries, or different sects, or different flavors, of certain theologies: the object being that a single facet is all, a single facet is the only thing real? Of coarse we have our friends saying that their facet is better than another's facet, etc. We could go into Myopia or vision thru a Urethra but that's another topic, phallic worshipers are everywhere. ------------------------------------------ > with the aim being > to make something else happen. colette: a value, no? An attempt to manifest something other. Did you forget the saying I used a few days ago: "You can only step in the same river once". How is it possible to re-manifest the exact situation, circumstances, conditions, etc. so that you can attempt to make something else happen? You can retain it in your mind, so that's where I put the alaya-vijnana (storehouse consciousness) and you can THEORIZE but once ya start attempting to recreate things that have already occured, with the INTENT of manifesting a different outcome, then you really gotta look at what you're doing. ... Can you see my meanings for INTENT? We have to practice at this stuff before going off around the bend. And ALWAYS BE CONSCIOUS THAT IT IS AN ILLUSION. IT IS NOT THE SELF. Of course we can go into rupa and nama but I'm going with your ability to grasp the concepts here. Which brings me back to ourfriend Wangming and the Chinese, can we know something without experiencing it first as a cause? How does the Zen concept of MIND BODY AND SPIRIT BEING ONE work in here? Ya see the problems I go thru when I start working with new practices? Yep, connie, I'm still shocked by that "Thera-Sauvantika" line you gave me. toodles, colette #67748 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:13 pm Subject: Re: A bit more about compassion philofillet Hi Herman and all I don't know if this is in any way relates to your post on compassion, but I always think it's helpful to remember that according to Abhidhamma (and suttanta? I don't know) compassion cannot be acccompanied by unpleasant mental feeling to be Buddhist compassion. Personally, I think puts compassion in the realm of people of deeper understanding. I stick to metta and mudita, which seem more readily available to folks like me. (us?) For example, the reflection that people are the heirs of their deeds, that they will reap what they sow. This is recommended as a compassionate contemplation when there is someone who has been hurtful to us in any way, do we make this contemplation with compassion or with a kind of spitefulness? Definitely the latter in my case, if I am honest with myself. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi All, > > I am wondering if there are any acts which can truly be called > compassionate in the Buddhist scheme of things. For in the absence of > #67749 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:17 pm Subject: Re: A bit more about compassion philofillet Hi again > compassion > cannot be acccompanied by unpleasant mental feeling to be Buddhist > compassion. i,e if there is sadness involved, it is not compassion. That makes Buddhist compassion much rarer than we think...I think. metta, phil #67750 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:37 pm Subject: First mindfulness of the body? ( was [dsg] Re: Meditation) philofillet Hi all I think I found the answer to this question in AN I, xxi. "One thing, O monks, iff developed and cultivated, leads to a strong sense of urgency; to great benefit; to great security from bondage; to mindfulness and clear comprehensions; to the attainment of vision and knowledge; to a pleasant dwelling in this very life to the realization of the fruit of knowledge and liberation. What is that one thing? It is mindfulness directed to the body." This doesn't mean that one rushes out to acheive mindfulness directed to the body with those results in mind. But it is kind of encouraging for me, because the biggest difference I've noticed since starting to meditate again is that I am less often in my head and more often in my body. No longer the compulsive need to listen to dhamma talks all the time. It is enough to walk and know one is walking, to sit and know one is sitting etc. To breathe, to reach, to straighten, to slump....every moment there is something going on with the body to which mindfulness may attend. B. Bodhi's note: "The great stress laid on contemplation of the body derives from the fact that meditative conemplation of the impermanent, painful and selfless nature of bodily processes forms the indispensable basis for a corresponding comprehension of mental processes; and it is only the comprehensions of both that will lead to liberating insight and the noble path." Nothing really surprising here, I know. Metta, Phil #67751 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:12 pm Subject: Re: right effort, and some Thailand impressions. buddhatrue Hi Nina, I am doing fine in Taiwan. Thanks for asking. In my mind, I kept starting all kinds of responses to your post, and then I finally figured that it is pointless. You are right, we have discussed this sooooo many times before- and we got no where then, so why should now make any difference? But, I will just make a quick response and then shut up (I'm sure Connie will be very pleased ;-)). When it comes to Right Effort, I am looking at what the Buddha taught; you are looking at what KS teaches. Sorry, but they are not compatible. Right Effort is not "being aware of presently arising dhammas", that is Right Mindfulness. Right Effort involves guarding the sense doors so that wholesome states will increase and unwholesome states will decrease. Bhikkhu Samahita recently posted about this: #67713. Nina, you asked about my personal experience with Right Effort and how I practice it. I would love to share that with you, but not in this list. I have found that several members in this list are not sensitive to other people, so I am not going to share personal information anymore. I may write to you off-list. Metta, James #67752 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 4:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: On the question of authenticity, in the end, it'll just come down to > any understanding developed to date, I think. I don't understand what you mean. Metta, James #67753 From: "m_nease" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:15 pm Subject: Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing m_nease Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > Hi Mike > > > Although there is much in the Dhamma that does alleviate domanassa, > > both temporarily and permanently, the goal is not this relief but the > > end of rebirth. Impossible to overstate the importance of this > > difference in my opinion. > > Very good point. I've posted before about how much I love one talk in > which you describe the way you came to see that meditation or other > Dhamma related activities were all about replacing domanassa with > pleasant feeling. An excellent warning. It does seem to me a very legitimate concern, and not only for the real corruptions (or imperfections) of insight* (vipassanuupakkilesa) but especially--since they are vastly more common--for perversions of perception etc. mistaken for corruptions of insight when no actual bhaavanaa (or understanding) has occurred but only thinking. > On the other hand, I have been coming across a lot of suttas in AN > that say that speak of happiness here and now ("if one does wholesome > deeds in the morning, that will be a happy morning" or words to that > effect, for one example, and another in which "there is happiness in > this lifetime and the next" for one who has a habit of avoiding evil > deeds) and others in which being free from remorse is a pre-condition > for guarding the sense doors (or the other way around, I guess) which > is in turn condition for more profound developments. > > So it seems that happiness, freedom from dosa, freedom from remorse, > freedom from the emotional suffering that is more likely when > proliferation goes unchallenged - it seems that these mundane forms of > happiness that I used to rail against as examples of Westerners > exploiting the Dhamma for personal emotional gain - it seems that the > Buddha offered them as profitable steps on the path toward deeper > understanding. I think I take your point--but what about freedom from attachment? Since it's attachment, not proliferation, that is the second noble truth, it seems to me that unchallenged (or unresolved) attachment (and its attendant somanassa) is an even greater problem than unchallenged proliferation (also because it seems to be inherently pleasant). (By the way, as I understand it, freedom from remorse is essential to samaadhi, but this I think is a different matter). > So while the goal is not this relief, it seems that this relief might > be a necessary factor of further development towards the goal. I think this may be true--IF the moment of 'relief' is really kusala, i.e. a moment of true daana, siila or bhaavanaa AND it occurs with insight. I think these moment are extremely rare. If that's true, then most of the time the relief must be akusala. Moreover, even when the moment of relief is kusala, if insight isn't present then the moment still leads toward future rebirth (even if favorable) rather than to the goal. I hope doesn't seem gratuitously contentious--I'm winging it and appreciate the opportunity to discuss the subject with you. > That's the feeling I'm getting from these suttas. I will be studying > them more, and discussing them more here, so no need to get into it > now. Just wanted to note that. Thanks Phil, hope you didn't mind my getting into it anyway, looking forward to more. mike p.s. I think the difference between the emotional suffering you mention above and dukkha in its entirety is also very important. If I understand it correctly, somanassa (the opposite of emotional suffering?) is a part of dukkha (as a part of the fourth aggregate of attachment). *"The Visuddhimagga (XX, 105) mentions "imperfections" which can arise: someone may cling to his understanding, to tranquility or to the assurance he has due to this beginning insight. He may forget that also understanding is only a conditioned reality which is not self. Or he may erroneously think that he has attained enlightenment already and thus he may get stuck in his development." from Nina's 'Cetasikas' #67754 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:19 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 6, no 2. philofillet Hi Nina and all > Sarah said to Khun Sujin that it is more difficult to develop mett·?? > when we are tired because then we are more easily irritated and > annoyed. Although we see the value of mett·??we do not have enough > confidence in kusala; we have no conditions for kusala at the moment > we want to have it. I'm very interested in this topic, because I've noticed very clearly that the feeling of metta that is so vibrant and usually present early in the day, for example when I walk to the station in the morning, is far less likely to be vibrant and present when I walk home, tired, at the end of the day. I think instead of wanting to have metta or trying to have metta at such times there can be appamada - now it is more about just getting home without harming anyone! So non-harmfulness takes over when metta is lacking. Khun Sujin answered that the idea of self is in > the way all the time. We attach too much importance to the way we > feel. Yes, whenever we are feeling poorly it is because we are identifying too strongly with the khandas. "We attach too much importance to the way we feel." Very well said. Another thing that Acharn Sujin said that I really like is "we place too much importance on the feelings that have already fallen away than on the present realities" or something like that. (On the other hand, I think she sometimes places too much, premature emphasis on "understanding present realities," which I feel is something that is highly unlikely to happen for busy worldings, though of course it may. It may, but not if one is urged to to do it and strives, whether consciously or not, to do so! We can be urged to pay attention, we can be urged to avoid evil and do good deeds, we can be urged to do this and do that, but I don't think we should be urged to "understand!" I don't think understanding works that way, but I am probably wrong.) >Tiredness is no reason for being angry, we should develop mett·?? > in order to think less of ourselves. Hmmm. No "should develop metta" when metta isn't there. I think in order to think less of ourselves we can think more of others, to think of protecting them, not harming them, but I don't think this is necessarily metta. Reflecting on how all the people around me are going home from work tired too, reflecting on how they - like me - are subject to the burning of the fires of desire/greed, aversion/hatred and delusion, that can give rise to a "we are in the same boat, brothers and sisters" kind of friendly feeling. It *can*. It *may* It often does. But to say "we should develop metta" when we are feeling tired or cranky sounds like a wish for fast relief, a wish for...oh no, trying to change presently arisen dhammas! We have discussed this "should" many times, haven't we Nina? :) BTW, I hope you and Lodewijk have settled back home nicely after your Asian trip. Metta, Phil #67755 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:36 pm Subject: Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing philofillet Hi Mike I haven't read your post thoroughly yet, I'm on the fly. But just picked up one point that will help me develop my understanding, I think. > > phil: So while the goal is not this relief, it seems that this relief might > > be a necessary factor of further development towards the goal. > > mike: I think this may be true--IF the moment of 'relief' is really kusala, > i.e. a moment of true daana, siila or bhaavanaa AND it occurs with > insight. Ph: It's this "insight." The message I'm getting from ANguttara Nikaya is that insight is developed -eventually- as the result of more mundane efforts. I think there can be a sense of well-being just from having abandoned the urge to do a bad things, from having abandoned an unwholesome, obsessive mental proliferation. Is there insight involved in that? I don't think so. And this freedom from remorse, this sense of well-being, is helpful on the way to developing insight. I quite from an AN passage I jotted down in a notebook: "Virtuous ways of conduct have non-remorse as their benefit and reward; non-remorse has gladness as its benefit and reward; gladness has joy as its benefit and reward; joy has serenity as its benefit and reward; serenity has concentration as its benefit and reward; concentration has insight as its benefit and reward." I don't know what these terms really mean - I guess "joy" and "gladness" and "serenity" are the jhana factors. But I find the beginning of that chain very meaningful these days. "Virtuous wyas of conduct have non-remorse as their benefit and reward." I am not coming across any suttas in which insight is mentionned as being a necessary pre-condition for virtuous ways of conduct, but I am just beginning to study AN. (Of course I will find what I want to find - that is the danger of suttas.) > I think these moment are extremely rare. If that's true, > then most of the time the relief must be akusala. Moreover, even when > the moment of relief is kusala, if insight isn't present then the > moment still leads toward future rebirth (even if favorable) rather > than to the goal. Sure, but I'm just starting out. The kind of insight that could lead to path moments that could lead out of samsara is not an issue for me at this point. The Buddha said "Avoid evil - it can be done. If it were harmful in any way, I wouldn't tell you to avoid evil." or words to that effect. There is no warning in that sutta that it will be harmful if one avoids evil without insight, if one avoids evil without seeing directly that all dhammas are anatta. I think the Buddha wants to know that avoiding evil is good in the beginning (without insight) good in the middle (with some insight) and good in the end (with perfect insight) or something like that. > > I hope doesn't seem gratuitously contentious--I'm winging it and > appreciate the opportunity to discuss the subject with you. I appreciate discussing with you too, Mike. As you know, I am a big fan of yours. > > > That's the feeling I'm getting from these suttas. I will be studying > > them more, and discussing them more here, so no need to get into it > > now. Just wanted to note that. > > Thanks Phil, hope you didn't mind my getting into it anyway, looking > forward to more. There will be more. I will leave it for now. Metta, Phil #67756 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Ghana m_nease Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Ghana > Always good to hear from you. My pleasure-- > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > > > S: I agree that it is on account of not 'resolving the compact', not > > > understanding dhammas as elements that the various vipallasa arise > > > -especially those connected with ditthi (wrong views). > > > > This makes sense to me too, except why the emphasis on di.t.thi? > .... > S: Good question! I think on account of the strength of this particular > vipallasa. Ditthi is the grossest kind of kilesa and the one that has to > be eradicated first. It is ditthi which not only doesn't understand > dhammas as elements, but which (mistakenly) takes them for being things > and people and wholes. > .... > >Isn't > > this > > failure to resolve (or analyze) equally important to sa~n~navipallaasa > > e.g., > > as in taking the unpleasant for pleasant, impermanent for permanent > > etc.? > > And isn't this far more common than di.t.thivipallaasa? > .... > S: I agree that other kinds of vipallasa (i.e citta- and sanna vipallasa > not accompanied by ditthi) are far more prevalent. However, they are not > as pernicious or dangerous as those with ditthi. (Of course, the taking of > the impermanent for permanent is also eradicated with ditthi). Point taken. > For example, the taking of the unpleasant for pleasant can be extremely > subtle and arise even when there is a very clear understanding of elements > as elements, such as in the various ariyans (other than arahants). Right-- > Do you have any other ideas on this? Not at the moment, thanks. > p.s Are you still listening to c.d.s while painting? Anything of special > interest? Unfortunately not set up for listening to mp3s while working at this point. But they're at the top of the list when this becomes practical again--thanks for asking. mike #67757 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:45 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Roots ken_aitch Hi Herman and all, My computer has broken down again. (This seems to happen every three months or so.) I am briefly checking in from an internet cafe. Herman, you have missed the point - yet again - of the "no control" perspective on the Dhamma. Don't worry, you are not alone. Expect more lectures from me when my computer is fixed. Ken H #67758 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: It means the consciousness stream is never-ending UNLESS there are > particular conditions in place for it to be never-ending. Here we come > back to samsara and D.O. You are not giving this subject the same degree of deep thought and consideration which I gave it. If the consciousness stream is never- ending (and never-beginning according to the Buddha) then it isn't impermanent. You seem to imply that this consciousness stream ends at enlightenment, but does it? There are deeper issues here which you seem to gloss over. Metta, James #67759 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > James, > > More cittas in a twist here - > > --- sarah abbott wrote: > > S: Yes, except to be accurate, we'd have to point out that there are > > always mind door consciousness moments in between each of the sense door > > consciousness moments. > .... > S: While I'm untwisting - better to say 'in between each series of the > sense door consciousness moments' - or simply, always mind door processes > in between each sense door process (vithi). And as you've been writing > about bhavanga cittas recently, we could further add that there are always > bhavanga cittas in between each of these processes. I didn't know this. Thanks for the information. Metta, James #67760 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing m_nease Hi Scott, ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Duncan To: Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:22 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing > I think that 'goals', unless understood properly (or rather considered > from the point of view of anatta) can be misleading. Ultimately there is, of course, only one goal as I understand it. > If there is > relief from domanassa stemming from an increasing understanding of > things due to considering the Dhamma, this is just a natural > consequence. Fair enough-- > Seeking to reduce 'lack of pleasure' is only seeking > 'pleasure'. If by renouncing a lesser happiness one may realize a greater happiness, let the wise one renounce the lesser, having regard for the greater. Dhammapada 290 The commentary will probably dispute the value of this citation in this context. I'm never very comfortable quoting the Dhammapada (because the commentarial exigesis is so often counter-intuitive, to me at least). Still, the principle of seeking happiness (or more accurately reducing lack-of-happiness--if I may substitute 'happiness' for 'pleasure') doesn't seem contrary to the texts to me. > And seeing domanassa as 'mine' leads to misunderstanding > the whole nature of things, Surely seeing anything as 'mine' does so-- > which gives rise to ideas about 'my > practise' and 'my influence' over 'my following' of 'my Path'. All > wrong, methinks. Certainly! This reminds me that I have a toothache and a backache today. I find that the thought of 'toothache' or that of 'backache' is very different from thoughts of 'my toothache' or 'my backache'. Just a natural consequence as you say. mike #67761 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:59 pm Subject: Navam Poya Day! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Navam Poya day is the full-moon of February. This holy day celebrates the ordination of the Buddha Gotama's main disciples S Ä riputta and Mah Ä Moggall Ä na . On this day he also later decides his ParinibbÄna . On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than oneâ??s own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards NibbÄna: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town, & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift, and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Navam Poya Day! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #67762 From: connie Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:40 pm Subject: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' nichiconn colette: How does the Zen concept of MIND BODY AND SPIRIT BEING ONE work in here? Ya see the problems I go thru when I start working with new practices? Yep, connie, I'm still shocked by that "Thera-Sauvantika" line you gave me. connie: and then I got to part of the Pi.taka-Disclosure that I thought you might like in relation to the heart of the prajnaparamita sutra(s): 173. 31. Herein, what is Demonstrated and Undemonstrated? < With clear eyes, with countenance bright, Majestic, erect as a flame, In the midst of this body of monks Thou shinest like unto the sun > (Sn 550). [51] [From] "With clear eyes" down to "Thou shinest like unto the sun" is Demonstrated. That he with the clear eyes is the Blessed One, and how he has clear eyes, how he has a fine face, how he has a divine body, how he is erect as a flame, and how he shines, is Undemonstrated. [And] the prose-exposition of the Lump-of-Froth Simile (S iii 140f): By "as a lump of froth is, so is form; as a bubble is, so is feeling; ... down to ... consciousness" the five categories are Demonstrated with the five similes. But the reason why form is similar to a lump of froth, and whether is is all [the kind that is] cognizable by the eye [only] or [also] that cognizable by the [other] four bases, [namely ear, nose, tonge, and body] and how feeling is similar to a bubble, and which kind of feeling it is, whether pleasant, painful, or neither-painful-nor-pleasant: this is Undemonstrated. That is how it is Demonstrated and Undemonstrated. 181. 39. Herein, what is Ideas Not Inseparable from the Idea of Ripening? < Form, and the felt, and then perception, And consciousness, and choice besides: "This is not I, nor this my self", When he sees thus his lust fades out > ( ), [and] < Bhikkhus, there are these five categories > (cf S iii 47). This is Ideas Not Inseparable from the Idea of Ripening. connie: And there is repetition: < How many ideas must be given attention by one who desires to verify the fruit of Stream-Entry? > the Blessed One said < The Five Categories for assumption > ( ). peace, c. #67763 From: connie Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:40 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (1) nichiconn Dear Nina and friends, Pi.taka Disclosure: << 150. No one can demonstrate how the Thread's meaning is without having lent an ear (?). >> and << 177. 35. Herein, what is Seeing? < This is the only path, no other, For the purification of seeing, So do you practise the way therein: This is bewilderment of Maara > (cf $41), [and] < When a noble hearer is possessed of ... four factors ..., he could ... declare himself to himself thus: "I have exhausted [risk of birth in] hells ... down to ... I am a Stream-Enterer, no longer inseparable from the idea of perdition, certain [of rightness], bound for enlightenment > (A v 182). This is Seeing. >> best wishes, c. ======= The Co. to D iii 250: The seeing of him of the Ten Powers (the Buddha), the Sangha, this is the seeing abover all: dassanaanuttariya.m. Hearing the Buddha's words, the Tipi.taka, that is the hearing above all (tepi.taka-buddha-vacana-savana.m). > Or alternatively, the eye base and ear base are taught first > among the internal bases because of their great helpfulness as > [respective] causes for the Incomparable of Seeing and the > Incomparable of > Hearing (see D iii 250). #67764 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 sarahprocter... Hi Scott, (Connie and all Mental Developers), A little belatedly back to your good quotes from the Mahanidana & commentaries: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Sutta: "Aananda, when a bhikkhu - having understood as they really > are the origin, passing away, satisfaction, unsatifactoriness, and > escape in regard to these seven stations for consciousness and two > bases - is liberated through non-clinging, then he is called a bhikkhu > liberated by wisdom." > > Cy: "He is liberated by not grasping anything through the four kinds > of clinging. 'Liberated by wisdom'; <...> > Sub. Cy: "'Liberated by wisdom'; he is liberated solely by the power > of wisdom he does not achieve the eight emancipations and thus lacks > the power of eminent concentration. Or else, 'liberated by wisdom' > means liberated while understanding; that is, knowing and penetrating > the four truths in the modes of full understanding, etc. without > contact with the first jhaana,* he is 'liberated' or distinctively > freed by completing the functions (of penetration) by bringing those > functions to their climax. > > "'Dry insight meditator': one whose insight is dry, rough, and > unmoistened, lacking the moisture of serenity meditation. > > "'Does not dwell suffusing the eight emancipations': this indicates > the absence of the power of eminent concentration. 'Having seen with > wisdom': this indicates possesion of the power of eminent wisdom." ..... S: yes the Puggala Pannatti (Abhidhamma text)and its commentaries spell it out in very clearly. Of course, many will say 'ah, yes, but we only look to the suttas'. (Also more in U.P. for anyone under 'Dry Insight', 'Panna vimutti', 'Susima Sutta' etc). So far in the accounts of our Therii (Sisters), all of whom have become arahants, to date I see no evidence of those so far discussed having attained prior mundane jhanas. Do you? For example, in Sisters (5) we read about Tissaa. In the R-D transl: "Leaning on his words, she strove for insight and when she had reached Arahantship, she declaimed her verse in exultation...." In the Pruitt transl: "She zealously practised insight meditation [S: I assume this refers to vipassana bhavana*], attained Arahatship, and spoke the verse...." In the cy at the end we read: "< * Note 54: "'Without contact with the first jhaana' > (pa.thamajjhaanaphassena vinaa). This phrase needs careful > qualification. It applies only to the dry-insight meditator, and > means that he reaches the supramundane path, by which he penetrates > the truths, without having previously attained mundane jhaana. But > for all meditators the supramundane path includes jhaana, required to > fulful the 'right concentration' factor of the noble eightfold path. > In the case of the dry-insight meditator, the concetration factor will > occur at the minimal level as the first supramundane jhaana (see Vism. > XXI,112). <...> S: This note of B.Bodhi's is the point that some of us repeatedly make here - i.e that even for those without any prior (mundane) jhana, the lokuttara cittas are accompanied by concentration of first jhana level. Hence, for all, they are lokuttara jhana cittas. .... > In his introduction, Bh. Bodhi writes an interesting, although > somewhat lengthy, section on the above. He gives his own opinions and > take on certain matters of relevance to the thread. Since the book is > out of print, I'd be happy to post the section if anyone has interest. ... S: All your quotes are useful, Scott. I'm very glad that through your persistent efforts, you managed to track down copies of these valuable translations. You might like to check under 'Mahanidana Sutta' in U.P. first before typing out too much intro as I remember Christine typing out some passages too. I look f/w to what else you dig out. Connie, thx for all your many helpful recent quotes too and Sisters Galore:-) *Insight meditation (vipassana bhavana, subject to someone checking the Pali) - for those who don't see much vipassana bhavana in the texts, here we go. So, who'd like to discuss what insight meditation is? Metta, Sarah ======= #67765 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing sarahprocter... Hi James & all, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > S: It means the consciousness stream is never-ending UNLESS there are > > particular conditions in place for it to be never-ending. Here we come > > back to samsara and D.O. > > You are not giving this subject the same degree of deep thought and > consideration which I gave it. .... S: Guilty! I can't say that sentence (later corrected to cut the second 'never') took any great insight:-). Apologies again. To be honest, I was just finishing off a busy posting spell when Jon came in, back from more surgery (can I say 'very minor' again, Herman, just so that folks aren't unduly concerned? We've swapped roles of 'patient' and 'nurse' recently:-)). As I'm nearly always a 'write and post' person (as opposed to 'write, save, check, draft, check, post' person), someone always 'cops' it when I'm interrupted (often!):-). .... >If the consciousness stream is never- > ending (and never-beginning according to the Buddha) then it isn't > impermanent. You seem to imply that this consciousness stream ends at > enlightenment, but does it? There are deeper issues here which you > seem to gloss over. .... S: The stream just refers to all the cittas arising and falling away in never-ending succession. In a recent Vism installment (#67619), Nina quoted from the commentary to the Abhidammatha Sangaha about how cittas arise in a particular order: "In this way it is shown how each of these dhammas has a distinct function, and thus one should understand that when consciousness is operating, it operates by virtue of a fixed order of consciousness, like the fixed order of the seasons and seeds, without there being anyone issuing orders saying, 'You are adverting and come immediately after existence-continuum [bhavanga]; you are, saying, seeing, or whatever, and come immediately after adverting.'" So the cittas are all impermanent, but the 'stream' is merely a concept to indicate the continuous 'flow' of these impermanent cittas. The 'stream' doesn't end at enlightenment, but only at parinibbana [i.e the end of the arahant's life, as you know, when there is no 'fuel' left to condition the further patisandhi rebirth citta after the last cuti death citta]. This is an important topic and you've raised good questions. Pls let me know if you still think my answer is inadequate. We don't need to know all the details about different cittas and processes, but understanding a little, helps us to appreciate that there cannot be seeing and hearing at the same time, for example and that there cannot be any self behind this 'stream' of cittas. As Nina also explained in the same Vism installment about the cittas: "They are fixed or invariable as to the doorway, object and physical base: seeing only experiences visible object through the eyedoor and it arises at the eyebase. Hearing only experiences sound through the eardoor and it arises at the earbase. One may think that there is a person who can see and hear at the same time, but seeing and hearing are different cittas arising at different moments, each because of their own conditions and they perform each their own function." I'll look forward to any further feedback. Metta, Sarah ========= #67766 From: "Andrew" Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:50 pm Subject: Gaps: Unecessary but Interesting corvus121 Hello Howard & Sarah Reading this post has just prompted my memory about something. I don't think it's too far off-topic here, so I will interject with it, if I may. I mentioned in another thread that I am ploughing through a book on Abhidhamma by a Sri Lankan doctor, Jaya... [help, the book is not to hand and I can't spell his name from memory!] In one part, he made a throwaway comment that made me ponder. The throwaway was essentially this - that the anatta doctrine only makes sense in combination with a 'momentary citta' theory. He didn't develop the argument (at least, not so far - I'm still reading) but I assume he is thinking that non-momentary citta is de facto atta. Have you heard this argument before? What do you think of it? Best wishes Andrew --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah (and James) - > > In a message dated 1/31/07 1:50:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > > Hi James (& Howard), > > > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > >The citta theory, however, does hold some problems for me because of > > >the zero duration of the cittas and the `unaccounted for' gap between > > >them which must exist for them to be separate. > > .... > > S: Why must there be any gap? #67767 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, Also, another late reply to some good quotes and comments in a discussion with Swee Boon: --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Again, as I understand it, lokuttara cittas have nibbaana as object > (hence are not 'lokiyaa'). Regarding magga and phala cittas I think > these are javana cittas which occur in one process of javana. I'm not > sure, and stand for correction, but I think that only these cittas > condition eradication whereas mundane, say with jhaana, only suppress > defilements. ..... S: All sounds good to me. The 2 or 3 phala cittas (fruition consciousness) are lokuttara vipaka-cittas which immediately follow the magga citta in the same process, unlike other vipaka cittas. Also, unlike other vipaka cittas, as you say, they perform the function of javana. It is just the magga cittas which eradicate defilements. .... <....> More good quotes on lokiya and lokuttara trimmed reluctantly... ... > And, commenting on Dhammasa"nga.ni 277, "Thoughts engaged on the > Higher Ideal (lokuttara.m citta.m - with relevance to jhaana): > > "...'He cultivates [bhaaveti*] the Jhaana' means he evolves, produces, > develops the ecstatic Jhaana of one momentary flash of consciousness. .... S: And here we come back to bhaavanaa and bhaaveti as just referred to as in 'vipassana bhavana' (translated as insight meditation). Bhaaveti is the verb, as in 'he develops/meditates....'As your further note adds: 'Regarding 'bhaaveti': "Develops means to beget, produce, increase. This is the meaning of bhaavanaa here." '(Atthasalini, p.217) So again, what is meant by 'he cultivates (bhaaveti) the Jhaana' in this context of lokuttara (transcendental)above? ... > Because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this > Jhaana is called 'going out.' Or, a person goes forth by means of it, > hence it is called 'going out.' The person who is endowed with that, > comprehending (the Fact of) Ill goes forth, abandoning the cause (of > Ill) goes forth, realising the (fact of ) cessation goes forth, > evolving the Path goes forth..." .... S: In other words, as you quote, the 'cultivates the jhaana' here refers to the lokuttara cittas which 'go forth' from samsara, from the lokiya (mundane) world. Thanks again for all these helpful passages. Metta, Sarah ======= #67768 From: "Joop" Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 1:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arahants and compassion jwromeijn Dear Sarah, As I said yesterday: your responses are really valuable for me. S: " Btw, I think Howard added some good comments to James's apt sutta quote on the arahants going forth out of compassion (#67486). Howard wrote:"Moreover, with not an iota of selfishness left in an arahant to stand as an obstacle to his/her clarity of vision and generosity of spirit, there is every reason to expect in an arahant a heart that is open, loving, and dedicated to removing pain in the world." S: "I wonder if these comments impressed you as they did me?" J: This and other comments did convince me of the arahant's compassion. The question however is: what can we learn from this, how can we (wordlings) practice compassion because we should not wait till we got arahant? Part of the answer must be: being mindful that when we think to practice compassion, it's really without greed or hatred. Practice compassion again and again and being mindful again and again. I think the view of the Buddha is well said in this quote: "… that dhammas like lovingkindness and compassion can and do arise in the mental continua of Buddhas and arahants, but that they differ from those which arise in non-arahants in that they arise as accompaniments to a special class of consciousnesses known as operative or functional consciousness (kriyâ citta), so called on account of their being neither kamma-generating nor kamma resultants." I sometimes have my doubts if reasoning in the way of "arahants have this characteristics" or "arahants don't have any more of that …" is very helpful. Because a too simple conclusion then can be: Oh, if we want to be an arahants, we should try to have this .. or try to 'destruct' that …; and that's doesn't work. Applied to 'compassion'. I think as worldlings: should we try to have compassion without 'empathy' because an arahants doesn't have that any more? I think that's not wise. As I said to James some days ago: I agree with you, compassion without equanimity is not good; but also there is a danger to have equanimity without perfecting compassion, that is a kind of autism. Said otherwise: when we, worldling try to do as a arahant, we behave autistic. I think the reason is: nobody likes dukkha so there is a temptation skip dukkha and get as soon as possible in a life without. And that's of course: an illusion. ONLY WHO HAS REALLY FELT THE SUFFERING OF OTHERS BEINGS, CAN TRANSCEND IT. Perhaps you remember that a year or so ago I proposed to ad a citta to the list, named in the Dhammasanghani, labeled (nicely) by you "the Joop-citta" and by me as "the social citta": I repeat a piece of our discussion in #46699: "Joop: > I define this 'social citta' as "the intuitive, so immediate, > awareness of the presence of another being". Sarah: To me this is a kind of thinking, often without words. There is the seeing of the visible object and then immediately the idea of another 'presence'. Even babies have such an idea very quickly, don't they? Joop: yes, even babies, that's a 'proof' that it's not 'thinking' because babies (for exemple according Piaget) cannot think in this way." end of quote To my surprise there is more consistency in the ideas arising in me then I knew myself. Because this proposal an my emphasis on the empathy-aspect is in fact the same: a human being is not an isolated construction of aggegates. My statement still is: the Buddha has paid attention to this social dimension but the Abhidhamma is only describing a part of all this, is "individual psychology" a soteriologic selection of the Teachings; but there is also a "social psychology". And I still state: Theravadins has the tendency to neglect this deep-rooted social dimension in all sentient beings; and that is no good. You said; " So we continue assisting others in our own ways, but I think we can also learn more about the distinction between what we've been brought up to take for compassion and the quality of karuna, just as we distinguish between love as we used to think of it and metta as taught by the Buddha." J: the distinguishment between 'love' and 'metta' I already know 45 years ago, when it's was explained in my study pedagogics about child rearing: eros vs agape (greek words) of which 'eros' is self-centered and 'agape' altruistic. I think this is something else as the distinguishment conventional versus ultimate language as I understand you well. My view is: when 'compassion' is self-centered (for example self-pitty) than it's not compassion. We can continue the discussion. Discussion about 'compassion' s such already runs: see Herman message of yesterday I prefer: about quotes of the Bhikkhu Bodhi essay. Most interesting then is the question of chapter IV: "How the Buddha is distinguished from other arahants" Combined with the question of chapter V: why "… in the Nikayas the Buddha is never seen teaching others to enter a bodhisattva path." ? " In the final analysis, I have to confess that I can't provide a cogent explanation. In view of the fact that in later times, so many Buddhists, in Theravada lands as well as in the Mahayana world, have been inspired by the bodhisattva ideal, it is perplexing that no teachings about a bodhisattva path or bodhisattva practices are included in the discourses regarded as coming down from the most archaic period of Buddhist literary history. For me, this remains an incomprehensible puzzle." (p. 14) There is another topic: the evolution of the thinking of Bhikkhu Bodhi. When still in Sri Lanka, he never should have written an essay as this. His view got broader. Another example of this (in my view positive) development is seen when comparing two explanations of the Kalama Sutta. See my message #65474 So my question is: do you agree that interaction with other buddhist traditions is good for ones spiritual development? Metta Joop #67769 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 2:35 am Subject: Listening. nilovg Hi Howard, I hope your arm improves, better do exercises quietly by yourself. These therapists want a result too soon (like us developing insight!). So much the better the cruise was cancelled, it sounded a terrible idea to me. You can try to get the link from Rob K: Abhidhamma Vipassana, links. ------------ Howard: The foregoing seems clear and uncontroversial to me. What is there to discuss about it? --------- N: I know you see the importance of listening, but let us discuss this Sutta in depth. Each word should be studied. Others can also make their input. Let us go slowly, slowly! --------- H: There is no guarantee that your studying of it (or my studying of it) will be "with sati sampaja~n`n". It seems to me that this is a meager notion of practice, and very far from the fullness of the Buddha's practice teachings. --------- N: In the course of our sutta study I hope to give more clarifications of my notion of practice as not being a 'meager notion of practice'. I think you and I see listening and considering differently. ------------- In which way should we listen? With confidence, saddhaa, and with much respect and reverence. Let us first deal with confidence. In the Sutta we read first that a householder who approaches a monk wants to know whether he is purified from lobha, dosa and moha, before he will put his confidence in him. We read: Before we associate with someone we should consider whether he or she truly is a good friend in Dhamma we should listen to. Can we verify for ourselves what is said by the good friend? The Buddha said that we should develop our own understanding; be a refuge to yourself, Dhamma is your island, your refuge. How can we verify something we hear? By testing it out, and this can only be done with regard to the present reality. Why is Khun Sujin repeating over and over again what seeing is, different from thinking of what is seen? Howard, I know that you understand this, but, now we come to a crucial point: is the truth of this realized at the very moment seeing appears, thinking appears? That is more difficult than just hearing about it, or reading about it and understanding it in theory. A friend asked me: why do we have to hear the same things over and over again, why is this? Answer: we accumulated so much ignorance. We believe that we have understood the truth already, but when we see that this is not so, there is already some progress on the way. Now an aside about confidence, an example. A good friend, Kh Kulin, had an attack and was in coma. Since she had listened with great confidence for many years, Kh Sujin used a tape and put the button in her ear. She woke up immediately from her coma and started to talk. People listen to the Dhamma with different degrees of confidence. I noticed this with myself. Sometimes I listen and do not take in much. Sometimes, especially when listening in Thailand at the Thai sessions, I have more confidence and then I gain much more from what I hear. Different conditions. We listen and hear things we had not heard before. Before listening to the Dhamma we had no notion of seeing being different from thinking of what we see, or of the role of sa~n~naa that remembers what is seen as this or that thing or person. It is thanks to the Buddha's wisdom that we can learn the truth of realities. When we begin to consider seeing that appears now we can also remember the Buddha's excellent qualities without having to think about it, or to chant. This is what I heard this morning from Kh Sujin, and this is the Recollection of the Buddha related to the present moment. It is so direct, so true for daily life. Nina. #67770 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 2:37 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 129 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 129. Intro: In section 128 the Visuddhimagga dealt with the vipaakacittas which are receiving-consciousness, one being kusala vipaaka and one being akusala vipaaka. They are variable as to door and object, according as they follow upon seeing, hearing, etc. The receiving-consciousness that succeeds seeing has visible object, sound, etc. as its object and it receives that object through the eyedoor, eardoor etc. They are invariable as to physical base which is the heartbase, invariable as to their position in the process, since they arise after the pa~ncavi~n~naa.nas and invariable as to their function, since they only perform the function of receiving the object. In this section, no 129, the Visuddhimagga deals with the santiira.nacitta, investigating-consciousness which is ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by happy feeling. It does not deal with the other two types of santiira.nacitta (one being akusala vipaakacitta accompanied by upekkhaa and one kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by upekkhaa) since these can also occur as rebirth-consciousness. In this section only the vipaakacittas are mentioned that occur in the course of life (pavatti kaala). The santiira.nacitta, investigating-consciousness, accompanied by somanassa, happy feeling, performs the function of investigating an object that is extraordinarily pleasant, experienced by cittas arising in a sense-door proces and it can also perform the function of retention, tadaaramma.na arising after the javana-cittas. Only in the sensuous planes of existence and on account of sense-objects kamma can produce tadaarama.na-citta after the javana-cittas. --------- Text Vis.129: Then next to the profitable-resultant mind element, the root-causeless mind-consciousness element accompanied by joy (40) occurs accomplishing the function of 'investigation' (j), contingent upon the same object as that of the mind element, and having the heart-basis as support. --------- N: The mind-element, mano-dhaatu, refers here to the receiving- consciousness, sampa.ticchanacitta which is succeeded by the santiira.nacitta by way of proximity-condition. ---------- Text Vis.: And when the object is a vivid one in any of the six doors belonging to sense-sphere beings, usually at the end of impulsions associated with greed it holds up the [renewal of the] course of the life-continuum (b) by occurring either once or twice as 'registration' (m), having the same object as that apprehended by the impulsions--so it is said in the Majjhima Commentary. -------- N: As to a strong or vivid object (balava), this means that the process of cittas that experience the ruupa runs its full course. Ruupa cannot last longer than seventeen moments of citta. When the object has impinged on a sense-door, it is not experienced immediately. Before the sense-door adverting-consciousness arises there are bhavanga-cittas the last two of which are called vibrating- bhavanga, the bhavangacitta that is ‘affected’ by the object, followed by the arrest-bhavanga, which is the last bhavanga-citta in the stream of bhavangacittas. It may happen that a ruupa starts to impinge on a sense-door several moments before there is the vibrating- bhavanga, and then the process cannot take it’s full course, since ruupa does not last longer than seventeen moments of citta. In that case there will not be an opportunity for tadaaramma.nacittas, registration or retention. As we read in the text: ‘ usually at the end of impulsions associated with greed it holds up the [renewal of the] course of the life- continuum...’ The Tiika elaborates on the word 'usually’, yebhuyyena. It explains that the tadaaramm.na-cittas accompanied by somanassa, happy feeling, do not arise when they follow upon the javana-cittas with dosa, doubt or restlessness. As we have seen before (Vis. Ch XIV, 122), there are several intricate conditions for retention. The object experienced by the javana-cittas which may be very desirable, moderately desirable or undesirable and also the feeling accompanying the javana-cittas are factors which can be conditions for the type of retention that arises within that process of cittas and for the feeling that accompanies retention. The Tiika explains that the tadaaramma.na-citta does not always have happy feeling when the preceding javanacittas are accompanied by happy feeling. It gives examples of javanacittas with attachment and other akusala cetasikas. It refers to Sutta texts, such as: ‘He rejoices in the eye, delights in it, and then attachment arises, wrong view arises... Or doubt and restlessness arise'. It states that when akusala citta has ceased, the vipaakacitta that is tadaarama.nacitta arises. But, when the object is pleasant, it is not so that tadaarama.nacitta with happy feeling does not arise. There are different opinions about the feeling accompanying the tadaaramma.na-citta. Some teachers say that kusala javanacittas and akusala javanacittas accompanied by upekkhaa, indifferent feeling, can be followed by tadaaramma.nacitta with happy feeling. In the case of javanacittas that are kiriyacittas accompanied by upekkhaa, the tadaarama.nacitta is not accompanied by happy feeling. In the case that the javanacittas are accompanied by three sobhana hetus, some teachers say that the tadaarama.nacitta can sometimes be ahetuka vipaakacitta and that there is then only one moment of tadaarama.nacitta. ---------- Text Vis.: But in the Abhidhamma Commentary two turns of consciousness have been handed down with respect to 'registration'. This consciousness has two names, 'registration' (tad-aaramma.na-- lit. 'having that object' that the preceding impulsions had) and 'aftermath life-continuum' (pi.t.thi-bhava"nga--see Ch. XIV,122). ---------- N: The Tiika explains that other teachers say that, when the object is near to dissolution and it can survive for only one moment of citta, the tadaarama.nacitta which experiences the same object as the javanacittas, does not arise. The Commentary to the Book of Aanalysis (Vibhanga) states that, when tadaarama.nacitta arises, there are two moments of tadaarama.nacitta. ----------- Text Vis. It is variable as to door and object, it is invariable as to physical basis, and it is variable as to position and function. ---------- N: The physical basis of this vipaakacitta is always the heartbase. It is not fixed as to door, object and function. As we have seen, the Visuddhimagga deals here only with kusala ahetuka vipaaka accompanied by happy feeling, arising in the course of life (pavatti-kaala). It can perform the function of investigating in a sense-door process and then it experiences an object through one of the five sense-doors. It can perform the function of tadaarama.na, retention or registration, and then it can arise in a sense-door process or a mind-door process, experiencing an object through six doors. ----------- Text Vis.: This, in the first place, it should be understood, is how thirteen kinds of consciousness occur only in the course of an individual existence in the five-constituent kind of becoming. --------------- N: These thirteen cittas are: the five pairs of sense-cognitions (seeing, etc.) which may be kusala vipaakacitta or akusala vipaakacitta. The two mind elements (mano-dhaatu) which are the two types of receiving-consciousness, sampa.ticchanacitta, one type ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta and one type akusala vipaakacitta. Furthermore, there is the mind-consciousness element (mano- vi~n~naa.na-dhaatu) accompanied by joy, which is investigating- consciousness, santiira.nacitta.This citta can perform in the course of life the functions of investigating and retention. ----------- Conclusion: The texts remind us that kamma can produce two more vipaakacittas after the javanacittas in the sensuous planes of existence. Kamma produced our birth as a human, in a plane where we can experience sense objects. We are attached to all the sense objects that can be experienced through the senses. Because of our attachment there are conditions to continue in the cycle of birth and death. Each citta in the cycle conditions the arising of the following citta by proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya. The object that is experienced by the cittas arising in a process may be pleasant or unpleasant. The vipaakacittas that experience a pleasant object or an unpleasant object is produced by kusala kamma or by akusala kamma. The javanacittas that experience that object are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. After the javanacittas there may be two more vipaakacittas that experience the same object. Each citta within a process has a fixed position and this cannot be changed. All cittas arise and fall away faster than a flash of lightning, they are beyond control. As we have seen, the Tiika refers to a Sutta text: ‘He rejoices in the eye, delights in it, and then attachment arises, wrong view arises... Or doubt and restlessness arise.’ There is more often unwise attention to an object than wise attention. The akusala cittas arising in the cycle of birth and death are countless. After the akusala cittas there are tadaarama.nacittas, if they arise, and then there are bhavangacittas, until a new process begins. We are reminded again of the danger of being in the cycle which goes on and on. Only when all akusala has been eradicated by pa~n~naa there will be the end to the cycle. ******* Nina. #67771 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 2:49 am Subject: re: Letters on Vipassana 6, no 2. nilovg Hi Phil, ------------ Ph: Another thing that Acharn Sujin said that I really like is "we place too much importance on the feelings that have already fallen away than on the present realities" or something like that. (On the other hand, I think she sometimes places too much, premature emphasis on "understanding present realities," which I feel is something that is highly unlikely to happen for busy worldings, ---------- N: shall we say: studying, beginning to understand the present reality? If it is not the present one, we keep on speculating about it. It is not easy to know whether it is metta you notice early morning. You are in a happy mood, and then, who knows, there may be many moments of attachment to that good feeling. ---------- Ph: but I don't think we should be urged to "understand!" ------- N: It depends how we see being urged. This concerns only citta and cetasikas that arise when there are conditions. There is fire on our head, you like that text. -------- Ph: We have discussed this "should" many times, haven't we Nina? :) ------- N: Ken H explained it. It does not mean a commandment. Rather: it cannot be otherwise but.... Thanks for your good wishes. The days were full of Dhamma and this is good. Very little relaxation and this was hard on Lodewijk. Nina. #67772 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 2:58 am Subject: right effort nilovg Hi James, thanks for answering. To me it does not matter that we discussed these things over and over. ------- j: When it comes to Right Effort, I am looking at what the Buddha taught; you are looking at what KS teaches. Sorry, but they are not compatible. Right Effort is not "being aware of presently arising dhammas", that is Right Mindfulness. Right Effort involves guarding the sense doors so that wholesome states will increase and unwholesome states will decrease. -------- N: You rightly state according to the texts: Right Effort involves guarding the sense doors so that wholesome states will increase and unwholesome states will decrease. That is how I see it, it is right effort of the eightfold Path, together with right mindfulness and right understanding. If one hears unpleasant words from someone else and is about to retort in an unpleasant way, there may be awareness of the dhammas appearing through the six doors. Sound is only sound and it can be heard, in the ultimate sense there is no person there. It is kamma that produces the hearing of an unpleasant object. This is the way to guard the six doors, and there is effort, but together with right mindfulness and right understanding of realities appearing at the present moment. No opportunity of blaming others or feeling sorry for onself. Nina. #67773 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing scottduncan2 Dear Mike, Thanks for the response: M: "Ultimately there is, of course, only one goal as I understand it." I like the Dhammapada here: "If by renouncing a lesser happiness one may realize a greater happiness, let the wise one renounce the lesser, having regard for the greater. Dhammapada 290" For fun, the Paali: "Mattaasukhapariccaagaa, passe ce vipula.m sukha.m; caje mattaasukha.m dhiiro, sampassa.m vipula.m sukkha.m" M: "The commentary will probably dispute the value of this citation in this context. I'm never very comfortable quoting the Dhammapada (because the commentarial exigesis is so often counter-intuitive, to me at least). Still, the principle of seeking happiness (or more accurately reducing lack-of-happiness--if I may substitute 'happiness' for 'pleasure') doesn't seem contrary to the texts to me." On the latter, okay that makes sense; on the former (commentarial exegisis as putative 'wet-blanket') - from the Commentary: "...Vipula.m sukkhanti u.laara.m sukkha.m nibbaanasukkha.m vuccati, ta.m ce passeyyaati attho..." Maybe not. I think the above suggests that 'greater happiness' is in reference to 'nibbaanasukkha.m'; I'm not sure how this is rendered in English, maybe something like the 'the happiness of Nibbaana' or 'of cessation' or something like that. The commentator also notes, at the end of the passage: "Desanaavasaane bahuu sotaapattiphaladiini pupu.ni.msuti" Again, I'm not sure, but this seems to refer to the attainment of the Path at the level of stream-entry, suggesting that this is what is being discussed. Real Paali scholars can correct me. M: "This reminds me that I have a toothache and a backache today. I find that the thought of 'toothache' or that of 'backache' is very different from thoughts of 'my toothache' or 'my backache'. Just a natural consequence as you say." Yep. Thanks, Mike. Sincerely, Scott. #67774 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing scottduncan2 Hi Herman, H: "Given the momentary nature of nama, and that nama is not the object it experiences, on what basis can anything be said about the im/permanence or otherwise of the object of nama?" SN22,52(10): "Bhikkhus, attend carefully to form. Recognize the impermanence of form as it really is. When a bhikkhu attends carefully to form and recognizes the impermanence of form as it really is, he experiences revulsion for form...attend carefully to feeling...to perception...to conditional formations...to consciousness..." I think on the above noted basis. I realise you are making a technical point, I think, regarding the impermanence of 'naama' based on the notion that citta cannot be 'aware of itself'. The Buddha teaches above that it is possible to recognise the impermanence of all conditioned phenomena. Do you wish to discuss the ways in which this occurs? Sincerely, Scott. #67775 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 6:18 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 6, no 2. philofillet HI Nina > N: shall we say: studying, beginning to understand the present > reality? If it is not the present one, we keep on speculating about it. OK, that sounds reasonable. "Beginning to understand the present reality." In one talk I heard Jon say "understand realities or understand more about realities" and though that might not seem like an important distinction, I think it is. I think the latter is more realistic, somehow. > It is not easy to know whether it is metta you notice early morning. > You are in a happy mood, and then, who knows, there may be many > moments of attachment to that good feeling. I don't worry about that anymore. Whether it is metta or thinking about metta with attachment, it still motivates me to be friendlier, less harmful to others, and this helps to create conditions that might help foster deeper understanding. This is the sort of thing I wrote about to Mike and is where I'm at these days. BTW, I've never heard any warning about attachment to metta except in this group, and until I do I probably won't worry about whether it is really metta or not. No, that's not true, of course I've heard about the near neighbours (?) of the brahma-viharas. Metta, Phil #67776 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 6:30 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (11) nichiconn Friends, XI -- {Another} Muttaa *99, daughter and wife of Kosalan brahmins Muttaa, heaping up good under former Buddhas, was, in this Buddha-dispensation, born in the land of Kosala as the daughter of a poor brahmin named Oghaa.taka. Come to proper age, she was given to a hunchbacked brahmin; but she told him she could not continue in the life of the house, and induced him to consent to her leaving the world. Exercising herself in insight, her thoughts still ran on external objects of interest. So she practised self-control, and, repeating her verse, strove after insight till she won Arahantship; then exulting, she repeated: O free, indeed! O gloriously free Am I in freedom from three crooked things: - From quern, from mortar, from my crookback'd lord! *100 Ay, but I'm free from rebirth and from death, And all that dragged me back is hurled away. (11) ***** *99 Cf. Ps. ii. *100 The Thera Sumangala also celebrates his release from three crooked things - the sickle, the plough, and the spade. See Ps. xxi. { http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html } ====== VRI: "Sumuttaa saadhumuttaamhi, tiihi khujjehi muttiyaa; udukkhalena musalena, patinaa khujjakena ca; muttaamhi jaatimara.naa, bhavanetti samuuhataa" PRUITT: 11. I am well released, properly released by my release by means of the three crooked things, by the mortar, the pestle, and my crooked husband. I am released from birth and death. Everything that leads to renewed existence has been rooted out. 11. There, well released (sumuttaa) means: well released (sutthu muttaa). Properly released means: "I am properly, even perfectly, released." Now why did she say [she was] well released, properly released? By my release by means of the three crooked things (khujjehi) means: "by my perfect release by means of the three bent things (va"nkakehi)." This is the meaning. Now to show them by their form, she said, by the mortar, the pestle, and my crooked husband. For it is said that when grain is thrown into a mortar, turned over, and crushed by a pestle, it is the back (pi.t.thi) that is made to stoop over (onaametabbaa). Because they are the cause of making someone crooked (khujja-kara.na-hetutaaya), both of them [ie, the mortar and pestle] are said to be "crooked" (khujja.m). As for her husband, he was indeed hunchbacked (khujjo). Then she said, "...released from the three crooked things" in order to show which release? In order to show precisely that, she said, I am released from birth and death. She speaks of the reason for that: that which leads to renewed existence has been removed. The meaning of this is: not only am I released from these three crooked things, but also from all birth and death. Craving, which is the leader and guide to all [continued] existence, has been completely destroyed by me through the highest path. connie: Pruitt also has a lot from the Apadaana, but I haven't been adding much of that. Off the top of my head, I think I just mentioned the following bit that many of the verse commentaries, including this one, have in common: My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. peace, c. #67777 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 3:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing/Sarah & Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 2/1/07 2:40:19 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > To be honest, I was > just finishing off a busy posting spell when Jon came in, back from more > surgery (can I say 'very minor' again, Herman, just so that folks aren't > unduly concerned? We've swapped roles of 'patient' and 'nurse' > recently:-)). ===================== Sorry for what you guys have been going through! Is Jon comfortable ... and through for a while with surgery? With metta, Howard #67778 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 3:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Gaps: Unecessary but Interesting upasaka_howard Hi, Andrew - In a message dated 2/1/07 2:54:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, athel60@... writes: > Hello Howard &Sarah > > Reading this post has just prompted my memory about something. I > don't think it's too far off-topic here, so I will interject with it, > if I may. I mentioned in another thread that I am ploughing through > a book on Abhidhamma by a Sri Lankan doctor, Jaya... [help, the book > is not to hand and I can't spell his name from memory!] In one part, > he made a throwaway comment that made me ponder. The throwaway was > essentially this - that the anatta doctrine only makes sense in > combination with a 'momentary citta' theory. He didn't develop the > argument (at least, not so far - I'm still reading) but I assume he > is thinking that non-momentary citta is de facto atta. Have you > heard this argument before? What do you think of it? > > Best wishes > Andrew > ======================== I haven't heard the claim that not-self depends on (the assumption of) mindstates being discrete. In my opinion discreteness isn't relevant, and anatta depends solely on conditionality, which definitely is a reality. With metta, Howard #67779 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 8:32 am Subject: right effort, and some Thailand impressions. nichiconn James: ... I will just make a quick response and then shut up (I'm sure Connie will be very pleased ;-)). Connie: You never know. A message to his sister (on his on-line obit pages) from someone I know he was fond of: << I actually don't think Keith spoke more than a dozen sentences to me in all the years you and I were friends as teenagers Kristi. I just remember a quite, sweet, gentle soul always playing the guitar in his room upstairs. >> I remember what kept us "quiet". In the interests of not provoking more akusala, ... #67780 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 3:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Listening. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 2/1/07 5:36:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I hope your arm improves, better do exercises quietly by yourself. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I completely agree. That is what I'm doing ... very carefully. -------------------------------------------- > These therapists want a result too soon (like us developing > insight!). > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Again I agree. Their motivations for the overdoing may vary, but often it is a matter of ego. ------------------------------------------ So much the better the cruise was cancelled, it sounded a > > terrible idea to me. ------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) Yes, I think so. Too long, too many stops, too hectic ... and bad timing! (Otherwise, just perfect! LOLOL!) -------------------------------------------- > You can try to get the link from Rob K: Abhidhamma Vipassana, links. > ------------ > Howard: > The foregoing seems clear and uncontroversial to me. What is there to > discuss about it? > --------- > N: I know you see the importance of listening, but let us discuss > this Sutta in depth. Each word should be studied. Others can also > make their input. Let us go slowly, slowly! ---------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. :-) I'll follow your lead. ---------------------------------------- > --------- > H: There is no guarantee that > your studying of it (or my studying of it) will be "with sati > sampaja~n`n". It > seems to me that this is a meager notion of practice, and very far > from the > fullness of the Buddha's practice teachings. > --------- > N: In the course of our sutta study I hope to give more > clarifications of my notion of practice as not being a 'meager notion > of practice'. I think you and I see listening and considering > differently. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I will listen to and consider all that you have to say, Nina. -------------------------------------------- > ------------- > In which way should we listen? With confidence, saddhaa, and with > much respect and reverence. Let us first deal with confidence. > In the Sutta we read first that a householder who approaches a monk > wants to know whether he is purified from lobha, dosa and moha, > before he will put his confidence in him. We read: > thoughts, overcome by them, not knowing would say I know, not seeing > would say I saw, or would teach others, in such a way for their ill > doing for a long time. This venerable one's bodily and verbal > behaviour are those of one not deluded. If this venerable one teaches > something, it is deep, difficult to understand, exalted, beyond > logic, clever, should be experienced by the wise, this cannot be done > by one who is deluded. When examining he sees the venerable one is > pure, not deluded. Thus faith gets established in him, with faith he > approaches to associate. When associating he lends ear to listen to > the Teaching and to bear it in his mind. When the Teaching is borne > in the mind it is examined. When examining the meanings, he > speculates patiently and an interest is born. With bon interest he > struggles to weigh facts. Weighing makes the fourfold endeavour to > realise the highest truth. Then realises the highest truth even with > the body, also sees it with penetrating wisdom. Bharadvàja, with this > much the truth is realised. I declare this as the realising of the > truth.> > > Before we associate with someone we should consider whether he or she > truly is a good friend in Dhamma we should listen to. Can we verify > for ourselves what is said by the good friend? The Buddha said that > we should develop our own understanding; be a refuge to yourself, > Dhamma is your island, your refuge. > How can we verify something we hear? By testing it out, and this can > only be done with regard to the present reality. Why is Khun Sujin repeating over and over again what seeing is, > different from thinking of what is seen? > Howard, I know that you understand this, but, now we come to a > crucial point: is the truth of this realized at the very moment > seeing appears, thinking appears? That is more difficult than just > hearing about it, or reading about it and understanding it in theory. > A friend asked me: why do we have to hear the same things over and > over again, why is this? > Answer: we accumulated so much ignorance. ------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha taught many cultivational activities for overcoming ignorance. What is being suggested by Khun Sujin other than listening & thinking over? -------------------------------------------- > We believe that we have understood the truth already, but when we see > that this is not so, there is already some progress on the way. > > Now an aside about confidence, an example. A good friend, Kh Kulin, > had an attack and was in coma. Since she had listened with great > confidence for many years, Kh Sujin used a tape and put the button in > her ear. She woke up immediately from her coma and started to talk. > People listen to the Dhamma with different degrees of confidence. --------------------------------------------- Howard: My confidence in the Buddha and his Dhamma grew gradually, but there were specific events that were turning points for that. One was an early realization that the jhanas are real. Later ones were several "insight events" growing out of meditation practice and that verified Dhammic teachings, and a very basic one was seeing the reality, in my own life, of how the release of craving led to perfect equanimity in the face of apparent (but mistaken) prospects for death. The second noble truth was seen as a truth in that latter case, and it was then seen as more than just a theoretical proposition. So, certainly, having listened to and carefully considered the Dhamma sufficiently to accept it, I was able to apply it. ---------------------------------------------- > I noticed this with myself. Sometimes I listen and do not take in > much. Sometimes, especially when listening in Thailand at the Thai > sessions, I have more confidence and then I gain much more from what > I hear. Different conditions. > We listen and hear things we had not heard before. Before listening > to the Dhamma we had no notion of seeing being different from > thinking of what we see, or of the role of sa~n~naa that remembers > what is seen as this or that thing or person. It is thanks to the > Buddha's wisdom that we can learn the truth of realities. When we > begin to consider seeing that appears now we can also remember the > Buddha's excellent qualities without having to think about it, or to > chant. This is what I heard this morning from Kh Sujin, and this is > the Recollection of the Buddha related to the present moment. It is > so direct, so true for daily life. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I have no disagreement with any of this in the slightest. ----------------------------------------- > Nina. > ==================== With metta, Howard #67781 From: connie Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 9:15 am Subject: Re: Meditation (was shoulder biceps surgery0 nichiconn hi sarah, < ... > sarah: So far in the accounts of our Therii (Sisters), all of whom have become arahants, to date I see no evidence of those so far discussed having attained prior mundane jhanas. Do you? For example, in Sisters (5) we read about Tissaa. In the R-D transl: "Leaning on his words, she strove for insight and when she had reached Arahantship, she declaimed her verse in exultation...." In the Pruitt transl: "She zealously practised insight meditation [S: I assume this refers to vipassana bhavana*], attained Arahatship, and spoke the verse...." < ... cut ...> *Insight meditation (vipassana bhavana, subject to someone checking the Pali) - for those who don't see much vipassana bhavana in the texts, here we go. So, who'd like to discuss what insight meditation is? === check, mate: VRI / text: Saa pana obhaasagaathaaya vinaa pageva satthu santike laddha.m ovaada.m nissaaya vipassana.m ussukkaapetvaa arahatta.m paapu.nitvaa udaanavasena "viiraa viirehii"ti gaatha.m abhaasi. Itaraapi arahatta.m patvaa- Pruitt: She, on the contrary, was without a verse of radiance, depending all the more on instruction obtained from the Teacher. She zealously practised insight meditation, attained Arahatship, and spoke the verse [beginning] You are Viiraa because of your firm [mental states] as a solemn utterance. connie. #67782 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 11:04 am Subject: Abhidhamma in Daily lIfe, Ch 23, no 2, Lokuttara Cittas. nilovg Dear friends, There are several stages of insight-wisdom. First, doubt about the difference between nåma and rúpa is eliminated. It may be understood in theory that nåma is the reality which experiences an object and rúpa is the reality which does not know anything. However, theoretical understanding, understanding of the level of thinking, is not the same as direct understanding which realizes nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa. When there is, for example, sound, which is rúpa, there is also hearing, which is nåma, and these realities have different characteristics. There can be mindfulness of only one characteristic at a time and at such a moment right understanding of the reality which presents itself can develop. So long as there is not right mindfulness of one reality at the time there will be doubt as to the difference between nåma and rúpa. There has to be mindfulness of the different kinds of nåma and rúpa which appear in daily life in order to eliminate doubt. When the first stage of insight, which is only a beginning stage, is attained, there is no doubt as to the difference between the characteristics of nåma and rúpa. The characteristics of nåma and rúpa have to be investigated over and over again until they are clearly understood as they are and there is no more wrong view about them. The realization of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa is a higher stage of insight which cannot be attained so long as the characteristic of nåma cannot be distinguished from the characteristic of rúpa. All the different stages of insight have to be attained in the right order [1]. Paññå should continue to investigate the characteristics of realities as they appear through the six doors so that the three characteristics of conditioned realities, namely: impermanence (anicca), dukkha and non-self (anattå), can be penetrated more and more. When paññå has clearly understood these three characteristics enlightenment can be attained; paññå can then experience nibbåna, the unconditioned reality. When paññå has been developed to that degree there cannot be any doubt as to whether one has attained enlightenment or not. The English word enlightenment can have different meanings and therefore it may create confusion. The Påli term for enlightenment is ``bodhi''. Bodhi literally means knowledge or understanding. The attainment of enlightenment in the context of the Buddhist teachings refers to paññå which has been developed to the degree that it has become lokuttara paññå, ``supramundane paññå'', which accompanies lokuttara cittas experiencing nibbåna. Enlightenment is actually a few moments of lokuttara cittas which do not last. Nibbåna does not arise and fall away, but the lokuttara cittas which experience nibbåna fall away and are followed by cittas of the sense-sphere; in the case of the ariyans who have not yet attained the fourth stage of enlightenment, also akusala cittas are bound to arise again. However, the defilements which have been eradicated at the attainment of enlightenment do not arise anymore. --------- footnote 1: See Visuddhimagga chapter XX and XXI and “Path of Discrimination” I, Treatise on Knowledge, chapter V -chapter X. -------- Nina. #67783 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 11:07 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 6, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, The perfection of wisdom must be developed from life to life. We know that we should realize the difference between paramattha dhammas, namely, nåma and rúpa, and concepts. We know that the object of satipaììhåna is nåma and rúpa, not concepts. It is necessary to consider the difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts in detail, under different aspects, in our daily life. All such moments of considering are accumulated, they condition the growth of paññå, so that one day, we do not know when, direct understanding of nåma and rúpa can arise. When we see, we think that we are in this world, a world full of people, houses and streets. When we hear, we think that we are in this world, we hear people, animals, cars. We think all the time of the whole wide world with everything in it. In reality there is only one moment of seeing and one moment of hearing. Seeing sees just that which appears through eyes, visible object, and then both seeing and visible object fall away. After that we think of a person or of the whole world, because saññå remembers. There is only one moment of hearing and then both hearing and sound fall away, but we keep on thinking about what was heard, because saññå remembers. When we think of a person or of the world, the object of citta is a concept. As soon as we notice the shape and form of a person or a thing there is a concept of a whole. Even when we do not think of names we can still have a concept as object. When we perceive a pen we experience already a concept before we think about the name "pen". Children who cannot talk yet and who do not know the meaning of conventional terms which are used in language can experience concepts of a "whole". When they grow up they learn conventional terms so that they can name different things. They can then understand which person or thing is referred to. The English word "concept" (in Påli: paññatti) stands for the idea which is the object of thinking as well as the name or term used to denote such an idea. We should not try to avoid thinking of concepts; even the arahat thinks of concepts because there are conditions for thinking. The arahat does not cling to concepts but we are still clinging. We have not eradicated "attå-saññå", the wrong remembrance of things as "self". We cling to the general appearance of things and to the details. When we cling to the image of a man or woman we do not know the reality which appears through the eyes, visible object, and thus we know only a concept, not a reality. We do not only like the general appearance of things, we also like the details. We are attached to the trademark of clothing, of cars. ------------- Nina. #67784 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 11:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 6, no 2. nilovg Hi Phil, yes, the near enemy. We may consider this: what is better, to develop more understanding or accumulate more ignorance. I think we have already accumulated a mass of ignorance, so dark, so deep as the deepest abyss, as we read in a sutta. It is frightening. Should we not begin to develop a little more understanding of different realities, such as feeling, lobha or mettaa? Nina. Op 1-feb-2007, om 15:18 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > BTW, I've never heard any warning about attachment to metta except > in this group, and until I do I probably won't worry about whether > it is really metta or not. No, that's not true, of course I've heard > about the near neighbours (?) of the brahma-viharas. #67785 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 6:17 am Subject: Not-Self and "Rebirth" upasaka_howard Hi, all - On another list, I replied to a poster who had a rather typical atta view but wanted to understand the Buddhist anatta view and how it is compatible with rebirth. The following was my reply. (I am suppressing the name of the other poster, the name of the other list, and I am paraphrasing the poster's remarks, without direct quoting.) My reply to the poster follows below. With metta, Howard ******************************* ---------------------------------------- Howard: The term 'rebirth' is just barely better than 'reincarnation'. Literally, there is nothing that is reborn. What is going on, as I understand it, is the following: From moment to moment, new experiences arise: hardness, warmth, itches, sights, sounds, tastes, odors, thinking, feeling, emotions, and so on and so forth. Whatever occurs now, most especially volition, serves as condition for future experiences. The moment of death is just one more moment of experiencing, and it is immediately followed by the next moment of experience. The moment of death is simply a far more radical juncture point. If our current moment-by-moment experience is like watching a TV show, death is the moment that one show ends and the next begins. Or, if our current experience is like watching a sequence of shows on one channel, then death is like making a channel change. But even right now, nothing at all continues from moment to moment, for nothing at all remains; current phenomena arise and cease, serving as conditions for the arising of future phenomena. It's all just ebb & flow of impersonal, insubstantial, ungraspable, and fleeting conditions, each utterly dependent for its brief and fragile existence on other equally empty conditions. There is no self or core or own-being to be found in anything. --------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, a soul theory. It countenances an unchanging core to be found in the conventional person, but the conventional person is merely a concept imputed upon a flow of ever-changing, empty experiential conditions. That alleged core or self is exactly what does NOT exist according to the Dhamma. -------------------------------------------- <"Modern" view of ego being brain-produced and ceasing with death of brain said to be understandable> ---------------------------------------------- Howard: That is not the view of the Buddhadhamma. ---------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------- Howard: No, that is a misreading of the suttas. Nothing survives, even from moment to moment right now. Current phenomena condition future phenomena. "When this is, that is. With the arising of this, that arises." Just a conditioned flow of empty experience, without self. ---------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no changing substance. There are just experiential conditions at play. At one moment there is finger-touch-on-keyboard sensation, and then it is gone. At one moment there is a fleeting impulse to smile, and then it is gone. At one moment there is sound sensation, and then it is gone. There are no entities at all. --------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, this is good metaphor. ------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- Howard: You're getting close. But the Buddha didn't speak of any soul, not even an impermanent one. The term 'soul' intends a self-existent core. ------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Howard: You are assuming something that survives death. There is no such thing. But don't make a big deal of that. Nothing survives even right now, during this very life. Current conditions are the basis for future conditions - that's all. Future memories arise due to past experiences, and that contributes to the sense of something continuing, but every recalling is a new event. And even now we fail to recall much of what has gone by, and virtually all of "our life" as an infant. We don't grieve over that, do we? ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------- Howard: Nothing at all is permanent. Moreover, nothing at all is independent or self-existent, but simply arises briefly due to conditions. Dukkha is based in clinging to what is dependent, insubstantial, and impermanent as if it were independent, substantial, and permanent. Ease and joy is based in relinquishing that attachment so inappropriate to the nature of reality. #67786 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] right effort, and some Thailand impressions. nilovg Dear Connie, James, There is no provocation in discussions. When someone like James has another opinion, I find it challenging, it is an occasion for considering, and for the growth of confidence, I find. Nina. Op 1-feb-2007, om 17:32 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > In the interests of not provoking more akusala, #67787 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not-Self and "Rebirth" nilovg Hi Howard, You answered very well. I am glad you brought him to this moment now, with the words: Nothing survives even right now, during this very life. We could add: also now there is birth and death of citta, momentary death. This is an example of referring to the present moment when we explain the Dhamma. It is the clearest way. Nina. Op 1-feb-2007, om 20:17 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nothing survives even right now, during > this very life. #67788 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (11) nilovg Dear Connie, thank you very much. This always impresses me: heaping up good under former Buddhas,.. Or: age-enduring, for aeons. It shows how long it takes to listen, consider, be aware of nama and rupa. How could it all be over in just a short while? Nina. Op 1-feb-2007, om 15:30 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > Muttaa, heaping up good under former Buddhas, was, in this > Buddha-dispensation, born in the land of Kosala #67789 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 6:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Not-Self and "Rebirth" upasaka_howard Hi again, all - The first line of my reported post seems to have been partly cut off. What it should have been was the following: ====================== With metta, Howard #67790 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 11:52 am Subject: Re: First mindfulness of the body? ( was [dsg] Re: Meditation) nilovg Hi Phil, But in order to understand what rupa is, being quite different from nama, one also has to be mindful of the nama that appears. Unavoidable. It is like B.B. also says. Or sometimes we read that feeling has to be fully understood, but that means that also other phenomena like rupa have to be fully understood. Nina. Op 1-feb-2007, om 0:37 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > What is > that one thing? It is mindfulness directed to the body." #67792 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 7:42 am Subject: Wow, What's with Yahoo Groups? Re: [dsg] Not-Self and "Rebirth" upasaka_howard Hi, all - One more time! In a message dated 2/1/07 2:54:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > The first line of my reported post seems to have been partly cut off. > What it should have been was the following: > reborn> > ========================== The material between corner brackets is supposed to be "A question to the effect that given there is rebirth, what is it that is reborn". If this doesn't come through properly this time, something mighty strange is going on! ;-)) With metta, Howard #67793 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 12:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Roots egberdina Hi KenH On 01/02/07, ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Herman and all, > > My computer has broken down again. (This seems to happen every three > months or so.) I am briefly checking in from an internet cafe. > > Herman, you have missed the point - yet again - of the "no control" > perspective on the Dhamma. Don't worry, you are not alone. Expect more > lectures from me when my computer is fixed. > You have my sincere sympathy re your computer. I hate the bloody things. With regards to "no control", there are two ways of looking at this. There is control as causation/conditionality, and there is control as experience. I am not interested in control as causation, because it is at best theoretical, and at worst, speculative. Causality is always beyond the range of experience. When I talk about freedom etc I talk about the experience of freedom, which correlates with mindfulness. In a mindful state, one is free to take the broken computer to the repairman, or throw the bloody thing over the balcony. In a mindless state, there is no freedom in our action. This does not make mindfulness some cure-all. Mindfulness, while giving one freedom, curses one with responsibility. As an example, the joy of ordination is sound balanced by that flaming patimokkha hanging around your neck. Also, when mindful, one has freedom to choose a course of action, in fact one MUST choose a course of action when mindful, but one does not choose the context in which the choice is made, nor does one's choice guarantee the outcome of the endeavour. Of course, I am not free to be mindful when I am mindless. I cannot choose to have a computer that never breaks down. I cannot choose to stay happy and healthy. I cannot choose to enter upon a path that will end the unquenchable thirst for fulfillment inherent in all consciousness. Each mindful moment, I am confronted with the questions "To be, or not to be?" and if so "What will I be?" Little wonder, then, that at the first whiff of the spontaneous arising of mindfulness, most will do everything in their power to bury it :-) Haha, I got another lecture in, and you can't get me back, cuz you haven't got a computer :-) Cheers and Kind Regards Herman #67794 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A bit more about compassion egberdina Hi Phil, Thanks for all your posts. On 01/02/07, Phil wrote: > > Hi again > > > compassion > > cannot be acccompanied by unpleasant mental feeling to be Buddhist > > compassion. > > i,e if there is sadness involved, it is not compassion. That makes > Buddhist compassion much rarer than we think...I think. > I agree with you. But I wonder, seriously, why we bother busying ourselves with rare theoretical states that we wouldn't be able to identify if we fell over them? Kind Regards Herman #67795 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 1:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Sarah, On 01/02/07, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James & all, > > S: Guilty! I can't say that sentence (later corrected to cut the second > 'never') took any great insight:-). Apologies again. To be honest, I was > just finishing off a busy posting spell when Jon came in, back from more > surgery (can I say 'very minor' again, Herman, just so that folks aren't > unduly concerned? We've swapped roles of 'patient' and 'nurse' > recently:-)). As I'm nearly always a 'write and post' person (as opposed > to 'write, save, check, draft, check, post' person), someone always 'cops' > it when I'm interrupted (often!):-). Sarah, Sarah, Sarah. You don't know much about men, do you? Any man will tell you that there is no such thing as v minor surgery, when it applies to them. All of us blokes reading about Jon's ordeal know that what you describe as v minor, is in fact equivalent to a breech birth of twins in a bear hug :-) Wishing you both a speedy return to good health and normality. Kind Regards Herman #67796 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 1:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Scott, Thanks yet again for your efforts. On 02/02/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Hi Herman, > > H: "Given the momentary nature of nama, and that nama is not the > object it experiences, on what basis can anything be said about the > im/permanence or otherwise of the object of nama?" > > SN22,52(10): > > "Bhikkhus, attend carefully to form. Recognize the impermanence of > form as it really is. When a bhikkhu attends carefully to form and > recognizes the impermanence of form as it really is, he experiences > revulsion for form...attend carefully to feeling...to perception...to > conditional formations...to consciousness..." > > I think on the above noted basis. I realise you are making a > technical point, I think, regarding the impermanence of 'naama' based > on the notion that citta cannot be 'aware of itself'. The Buddha > teaches above that it is possible to recognise the impermanence of all > conditioned phenomena. > > Do you wish to discuss the ways in which this occurs? > I certainly do. If I might, could we possibly steer the discussion towards the Suttanta perspective? Which I believe to be the gradual impermanence of form, not any momentary impermanence. Kind Regards Herman #67797 From: "colette" Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 9:13 am Subject: Re: 'We are here to learn the dhamma' ksheri3 Good Morning Sarah, Allow me to add a few thoughts here: > Sarah: I wouldn't quite put it that 'the event of the burning of the curry > becomes the object .....'on and on'. colette: understand that I do not know the material you're covering here, I realy don't know how to read these footnote markers and such that you apply, still, I go on. Your above sentence, I take from the actions or act of the individual. Okay, for years back in the 1990s I had incense burners, etc. that hung from from my shelves and would glow at night when I burned them, frankensence was my favorite fragrance, sandlewood, etc are all good. Enlightenment may not simply come by viewing the act of perfoming the ceremonial of "burning the curry". The aroma may be the focus here, no? You can do a lot thru the application of incense. I read a piece last night that I don't have with me, that concerned the "Perfumed" ... it will come back to me later. Maybe there is no object, application of sunyata. Maybe it is by looking at yourself as the diety performing a diety's ceremonials. I refer to another piece I was reading last night the awakened me to the fact that although "man" does not have a "soul" maybe the "soul" has the "man", YES, now I remember, it was a definition of "CONSCIOUSNESS ONLY". ---- One brief reflection or occurrence in > daily life can be a condition for awareness (and understnaing) of various > dhammas to arise conditioned by previous 'firm remembrance' of what such > dhammas are. colette: I hope you're refering to Bija (seeds). wow, right when I wrote that I had a big flash. sorry, I'll have to come back later today. Does "awareness" = "consciousness"? toodles, colette #67798 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 1:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Gaps: Unecessary but Interesting egberdina Hi Howard, > I haven't heard the claim that not-self depends on (the assumption of) > mindstates being discrete. In my opinion discreteness isn't relevant, and > anatta depends solely on conditionality, which definitely is a reality. > Could you go into some more detail as to how/why conditionality is definitely a reality? Kind Regards Herman #67799 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 1:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Listening. egberdina Hi Howard, I gather that you have had surgery lately, and that the issues are causing quite some interruption in your life. I hope that things settle down real soon. Kind Regards Herman