#69000 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Meditation egberdina Hi Matheesha, On 27/02/07, matheesha wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I recently came across what some consider the best meditation > instructions on the internet. It is by a man called Upasaka Culladasa > who has many decades of experience on the matter. It is a staggering > account of the mastery of anapanasathi. I have gained a lot from these, > so for those in DSG who are so inclined - I have inculded his > instructions in a folder in the Files sections. It is > called 'Meditation instructions in Plain English'. > Thank you very much for uploading these files. I agree with your evaluation of them. Superbly written. And non-sectarian. I thought the following was a very accurate observation "the doubt engendered by the implied assertions of each tradition that its own methods are the best and its own commentaries most accurate, can be discouraging." I heartily recommend these files to the willing. Kind Regards Herman #69001 From: "m_nease" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:09 pm Subject: Re: daana corner m_nease Hi Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > It is MN 142 Dakkhinaavibhanga Sutta. > On page 1105 (translated by Bhikkhu Naanamoli and > Bhikkhu Bodhi. > > 8. "In future times, Aananda, there will be members of > the clan who are `yellow-necks,' immoral, evil > character. People will give gifts to those immoral > persons for the sake of the Sangha. Even then, I say, > an offering made to the Sangha is incalculable, > immeasurable. I say that in no way does a gift to a > person individually ever have greater fruit than an > offering made to the Sangha." End quote. Thanks very much for this--I don't remember reading it before and it seems pretty unequivocal. Really enjoying your Daana Corner. mike #69002 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas, Introduction, 3. egberdina Hi Nina, On 01/03/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > this is a short post. > We can say: accumulations are a condition. You have skills in > Mathematics, you learnt such skills. We all have accumulated > different skills and talents. If they are not accumulated and carried > on from moment to moment, where are they, how could they appear? People's accumulations are "stored" in people's brains. My wife works in a brain injury program, and comes home daily with accounts of how people's accumulations are altered and destroyed by various types of brain injury or disease. People's brains rely on oxygenated blood for healthy functioning. If a person has a stroke, or is unable to breathe air for some time, they can turn from a loving, caring partner, parent to a vegetable. This happens to hateful and uncaring people as well. Kind Regards Herman #69003 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Sukin, On 01/03/07, sukinder wrote: > Hi Phil, > > When I say "understand characteristics", I do not expect beginners like > myself to have any real direct experience. But *understanding it is*, and > this is the "key". > > And so what else is to be understood at this level of understanding? That > realities here and now are no different from the realities there and then. > For example lobha here, say to a film, is no different from lobha there, say > to a quiet surrounding. Seeing here is no different from seeing there. > Thinking here is no different from thinking there. > From my perspective, this is no level of understanding of any reality at all, but rather a level of misunderstanding. The notion that realities, seeing, lobha etc etc exist as categories apart from the situations in which they occur is conceptualisation and generalisation of the highest order. Summations like the above lack all contact with any present moment. But you are unable to avoid reality alltogether, aren't you Sukin, because you still must refer to thinking here as opposed to thinking there, and seeing here and seeing there. The reality is that seeing here is quite different to seeing there, and that thinking here is quite different to thinking there. And needless to say, the conditions for seeing here are totally different to the conditions for seeing there. Objectless seeing doesn't occur, and neither does objectless thinking. You are not talking about any reality here at all. If I were a dairy farmer and were to tell the Buddha that there are only dairy products, this is what he would say to me: "Just as when milk comes from a cow, curds from milk, butter from curds, ghee from butter, and the skimmings of ghee from ghee. When there is milk, it's not classified as curds, butter, ghee, or skimmings of ghee. It's classified just as milk. When there are curds... When there is butter... When there is ghee... When there are the skimmings of ghee, they're not classified as milk, curds, butter, or ghee. They're classified just as the skimmings of ghee. *You foolish man, who taught you this doctrine of dairy products? Did I teach such blatant reductionism for the welfare of the many? Develop mindfulness now, dude!*" (DN09). The bit between stars was found written on some bark in a clay jar somewhere, and not all pundits agree on it's authenticity :-) Cheers, dude Herman #69004 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 egberdina Hi Nina, Just to be different, I'll address the same segment as TG :-) We can learn that in the > ultimate sense there is not a hard thing, and there is no body. There > is just the contact of element on element. To deny the body, and instead to affirm elements and paccaya and ultimate realities is simply displacing belief in a self from one level to another. It is not necessary to deny the body in order realise anatta. It is not necessary to affirm elements to realise anatta. The body stays just as it is on the realisation of anatta. The body does not vaporise on the realisation of anatta, only the belief that it plays host to an enduring self. Kind Regards Herman #69005 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Away for a Week egberdina Hi Howard, On 01/03/07, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, all - > > We're leaving for a week tomorrow to the Dallas, TX area. I will > maintain some internet contact, but not a lot. > I wish you and yours a thoroughly enjoyable time together. Kind Regards Herman #69006 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Group buddhatrue Hi Howard and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: James - > if you wish, you forward a proposed "personal" post (one you mark as "DSG > PERSONAL"?) to me for my opinion (yes, no, or suggestions for modification), I > write you back, and then you act as you deem appropriate - sending it as is, > sending it modified according to all or some of my suggestions, or withholding it. Okay, this sounds like a good idea. I will send you the articles off- list and you can tell me if you think they are okay for DSG or not. I probably wouldn't revise the articles to make them more appropriate for the sensibilities of DSG though. If they are too controversial, I will just post them to my other group. That way I am not being censored, just guided. Some may wonder what the big deal is, but they don't really see the big picture. One year I counted the off-list warnings from Jon and Sarah and they numbered more than 40! Frankly, I don't like to be bothered that much by what I write to DSG. I haven't received hardly any warnings this year because I don't post as much and I don't write everything I would like to say. Another thing is that this group has an undercurrent of homophobia so I don't like to talk about my personal life. If Phil mentions anything about Naomi, or Nina anything about Lodewijk, or Howard anything about his wife and kids, there are lots of responses and discussion; if I mention anything about my boyfriend or relationships, it's like a fart in an elevator- everyone knows it's there, everyone is uncomfortable, and no one says anything ;-)). Not a big deal though; society is generally homophobic and there is no reason to expect DSG to be any different (there are some exceptions to this: Howard, Phil, and Herman being a few). Anyway, Howard wrote to me off-list and said that my first article is okay for DSG consumption, so I will post it. Metta, James #69007 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:10 pm Subject: Death Train buddhatrue The other day, I was lying in bed with my boyfriend and he was running his hands through my hair. It was one of those nice, intimate moments where it seems like everything is right with the world. However, the sweetness of the moment was quickly shattered by a shocking revelation. Sebastian told me, "You have some grey hair. Yeah, right here, you have some grey hairs." I thought he was joking with me, as he usually does. "No I don't" I replied, "Not yet." He didn't say anything else- I don't think it was a big deal to him. But, what he said bothered me. Later that day, when we were eating lunch, I checked my hair with a little mirror that is in my brush. I was very shocked to see that he was right; I do have grey hairs mixed in with the hairs at my temples. I hadn't noticed before, but I do have grey hairs!! I am not proud to admit that I freaked out a little bit when I saw those grey hairs. It wasn't so much vanity that bothered me; I wasn't worried that I would be unattractive with grey hairs. Those grey hairs at my temples were screaming at me something that I didn't really want to face: I AM GOING TO DIE!! When it comes to death, I am somewhat schizophrenic. Sure, I know that I am going to die, in theory, but I don't really want to think about it too much. I think I am still young (but 37 really isn't young is it?), many people tell me I look younger than my years, so I thought I didn't really have to think much about getting old and dying. In short, I was in denial about my impending death; yet, here was the evidence screaming at me in the face: grey hairs! I am getting old and I am going to die. Those grey hairs were my wake-up call. I don't have as much time as I think. I don't have time to dilly dally around anymore. I need to face up to the fact that I am going to die, and reflect on that fact again and again. I am afraid of dying. I would guess that fear of death is pretty universal. Everyone is afraid to die, right? Even those who say they aren't afraid to die are lying to themselves and others- they are afraid to die. Only an enlightened person isn't afraid to die, because an enlightened person doesn't really die- he, she passes into paranibbana. But, fear is not a good thing. Fear causes ignorance and panic. The Buddha taught meditation on death to decrease fear of it and to increase wisdom. I guess I need to start giving that type of meditation a try. It is like I am sitting at a train station just waiting for the train to arrive. I don't know when it will arrive but I know that it will arrive. The death train is coming- and I am scared to death! (pun intended). What shall I do while I bide my time? I hope I use the time constructively. #69008 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Who knows anatta? /was Re: daana corner ken_aitch Hi Herman, -------- <. . .> H: > Would it impress you if I told you that I have neither stopped beating my wife, nor have I not stopped beating my wife? --------- I can see a Dhamma connotation, so, yes, I am impressed. :-) -------------------- KH: > > If they have not attained enlightenment and > permanently destroyed their capacity for evil, perhaps theirs is not > the same anatta that the Buddha taught. > H: > A well-documented phenomenon amongst Western educated classes is a decline in birth rates. It may not be all down to having acquired an understanding of the evolved / conditioned nature of the world, but certainly there is an increasing realisation amongst educated folks that by wilfully abstaining from creating new life, there is the abstaining from creating new suffering and new evil. ---------------------- Creating? Are you suggesting they have control over other people's vipaka? BTW, I am one of those `no children by choice' types, so thanks for the compliment. ----------------------- H: > As for attaining enlightenment, and permanently destroying a capacity for evil, where does that happen? ------------------------ It's in the teaching of Buddha Gotama. ------------------------ <. . .> H: > These discussions have the same helpful effect on me, except I don't think in terms of right understanding. My methodology is more a negative one, I find out what is wrong understanding, what cannot be. I do not presuppose there to be an absolute right understanding of the way things are. But there are many ways that things are not, and the discussions here certainly help bring that to light. ------------------------- You are saying there can be wrong understanding, but not right understanding. That's a strange logic. --------------- <. . .> H: > You still have not told me how illusion is distinguished from reality, and how that could occur in the framework of a present moment only. ---------------- Actually I *have* told you – many times - and so have other DSG members. This negative methodology of yours is not working! I think you should try learning the Dhamma, and *then* decide what you think of it. ----------- <. . .> H: > Seriously, you wouldn't dispute that your interpretations of the Theravadan canon are on the fringes of the mainstream, would you? ------------ No, I wouldn't dispute that at all. K Sujin has pointed out that the Pali texts – including the ancient commentaries – are teaching something quite different from the Buddhism most people know today. She is right; there can be no doubt about it! Ken H #69009 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:32 pm Subject: Re: New Group philofillet Hi James > if I mention anything > about my boyfriend or relationships, it's like a fart in an elevator- > everyone knows it's there, everyone is uncomfortable, and no one says > anything ;-)). > This sounds like wishful thinking on your part, amigo. Nobody cares who you park your car in. BTW, I enjoyed your Death Train piece, but may I suggest you try to incorporate a few words of the Buddha within your articles? I know you appreciate the power of suttas, that would make your pieces even better. Metta, Phil #69010 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:21 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,137 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 137. In another's case, owing to kamma of the kind already described, there comes into focus at the mind door at the time of death the sign of the unhappy destinies with the appearance of fires and flames, etc., in the hells, and so on.23 So when the life continuum has twice arisen and ceased, three sorts of cognitive-series consciousness arise contingent upon that object, namely, the one adverting, impulsions numbering five because of the slowing down due to the nearness of death, and two registrations. After that, one death consciousness arises making life-continuum's objective field its object. At this point eleven consciousnesses have elapsed. Then, having that same object, which has a life span of the remaining five conscious moments, his rebirth-linking consciousness arises. This is the kind of rebirth-linking that has a 'present' object next to death with a 'past' object. --------------------------- Note 23. ' "With the appearance of fire and flames, etc., in the hells" is said owing to likeness of that; appearance of fire and hell does not itself come into focus for him then' (Pm. 607). ********************** 137. aparassa mara.nasamaye vuttappakaarakammavasena narakaadiisu aggijaalava.n.naadika.m duggatinimitta.m manodvaare aapaathamaagacchati, tassa dvikkhattu.m bhava"nge uppajjitvaa niruddhe ta.m aaramma.na.m aarabbha eka.m aavajjana.m, mara.nassa aasannabhaavena mandiibhuutavegattaa pa~nca javanaani, dve tadaaramma.naaniiti tii.ni viithicittaani uppajjanti. tato bhava"ngavisaya.m aaramma.na.m katvaa eka.m cuticitta.m. ettaavataa ekaadasa cittakkha.naa atiitaa honti. athassa avasesapa~ncacittakkha.naayuke tasmi~n~neva aaramma.ne pa.tisandhicitta.m uppajjati. aya.m atiitaaramma.naaya cutiyaa anantaraa paccuppannaaramma.naa pa.tisandhi. #69011 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 5:33 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (37) nichiconn Dear Friends, 4. Catukkanipaato / The Section of the Group of Four [Verses] Bhaddaakaapilaaniitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa / The commentary on the verses of Therii Bhaddaa Kaapilaanii part one of four: Catukkanipaate putto buddhassa daayaadoti-aadikaa bhaddaaya kaapilaaniyaa theriyaa gaathaa. Saa kira padumuttarassa bhagavato kaale ha.msavatiinagare kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa satthu santike dhamma.m su.nantii satthaara.m eka.m bhikkhuni.m pubbenivaasa.m anussarantiina.m agga.t.thaane .thapenta.m disvaa adhikaarakamma.m katvaa sayampi ta.m .thaanantara.m patthetvaa yaavajiiva.m pu~n~naani katvaa In the section of four [verses], the verses beginning [Kassapa,] the son, the heir of the Buddha are Therii Bhaddaa Kaapilaanii's. It is said that at the time of the Blessed One Padumuttara she was born in the home of a [good] family in the town of Ha.msavatii. When she came of age, she heard the Doctrine in the presence of the Teacher. And she saw the Teacher place a bhikkhunii in the foremost position of those who remember their previous lives. She did a meritorious act and wished for that position for herself. Throughout her life she did meritorious deeds. {Mrs. R-D notes: Dr. Neumann translates Kapilaani by 'the Blonde' (kapilo is auburn, reddish), as if in keeping with the soubriquet of the other Bhaddaa (Ps. xlvi.). I have not done so because elsewhere a soubriquet is always explicitly accounted for in the Commentary, and here nothing is said. Moreover, and this is fairly conclusive, the Apadaana chronicle, quoted in the Commentary, makes Bhaddaa 'daughter of Kapilaa the twice-born (brahmin).' Kapilaanii, therefore, refers to her family and should be Kaapilaanii. The Phayre and Paris MSS. of the Theriigaathaa both read Kaapilaani, so does Vin., iv., 290, 292.} tato cutaa devamanussesu sa.msarantii anuppanne buddhe baaraa.nasiya.m kulagehe nibbattitvaa patikula.m gantvaa, ekadivasa.m attano nanandaaya saddhi.m kalaha.m karontii taaya paccekabuddhassa pi.n.dapaate dinne "aya.m imassa daana.m datvaa u.laarasampatti.m labhissatii"ti paccekabuddhassa hatthato patta.m gahetvaa bhatta.m cha.d.detvaa kalalassa puuretvaa adaasi. Then, when she died, she journeyed on among devas and men. She was born in the home of a [good] family in Baaraa.nasii when a Buddha had not risen. She went to her husband's household, and one day, she had a quarrel with her husband's sister because she had given alms food to a Pacceka Buddha. Thinking, "This one, [my sister-in-law,] since she gave this gift to him, she will obtain great success," she took the bowl from the hand of the Pacceka Buddha, threw away the food, filled it with mud, and gave it back. Mahaajano garahi- "baale, paccekabuddho te ki.m aparajjhii"ti? Saa tesa.m vacanena lajjamaanaa puna patta.m gahetvaa kalala.m niiharitvaa dhovitvaa gandhacu.n.nena ubba.t.tetvaa catumadhurassa puuretvaa upari aasittena padumagabbhava.n.nena sappinaa vijjotamaana.m paccekabuddhassa hatthe .thapetvaa "yathaa aya.m pi.n.dapaato obhaasajaato, eva.m obhaasajaata.m me sariira.m hotuu"ti patthana.m pa.t.thapesi. A great number of people reproached her, saying, "You foolish girl, what has the Pacceka Buddha done to offend you?" She was ashamed because of what they said and took the bowl again, removed the mud, washed it, rubbed it with sweet smelling powder, and filled it with the four sweet ingredients. She poured clarified butter shining forth with the colour of the calyx of a lotus on top and placed [the bowl] in the hand of the Pacceka Buddha. Then she established this aspiration: "Just as this alms food is radiant, may my body be radiant." {RD: Handing it back, shining, to the Silent Buddha, she registered a prayer: 'May I have a shining body like this bowl!'} Saa tato cavitvaa sugatiisuyeva sa.msarantii kassapabuddhakaale baaraa.nasiya.m mahaavibhavassa se.t.thino dhiitaa hutvaa nibbatti. Pubbakammaphalena duggandhasariiraa manussehi jigucchitabbaa hutvaa sa.mvegajaataa attano aabhara.nehi suva.n.ni.t.thaka.m kaaretvaa bhagavato cetiye pati.t.thapesi, uppalahatthena ca puuja.m akaasi. Tenassaa sariira.m tasmi.myeva bhave sugandha.m manohara.m jaata.m. Saa patino piyaa manaapaa hutvaa yaavajiiva.m kusala.m katvaa She passed away there and journeyed on in happy existences. During the time of Buddha Kassapa, she was born as the daughter of a very wealthy merchant in Baaraa.nasii. As a result of her former actions, her body had a bad smell, and she was shunned by men. A profound stirring arose in her, and she made a golden tile from her own ornaments, put it on a shrine to the Blessed One, and made an offering of a handful of lotus flowers. Then her body became sweet smelling and delightful in that very same existence. She became pleasing and dear to her husband and did good [actions] throughout her life. {RD: After many fortunate rebirths, she was reborn, in the time of Kassapa Buddha, at Benares, as the daughter of the wealthy treasurer. But by the fruition of her previous karma her body was of evil odour, and she was repulsive to others. Much troubled thereby, she had her ornaments made into an ingot of gold, and placed it in the Buddha's shrine, doing reverence with her hands full of lotuses. Thereby her body, even in that birth, became fragrant and sweet. As a beloved wife she did good all her life,} tato cutaa sagge nibbatti. Tatthaapi yaavajiiva.m dibbasukha.m anubhavitvaa, tato cutaa baaraa.nasira~n~no dhiitaa hutvaa tattha devasampattisadisa.m sampatti.m anubhavantii cirakaala.m paccekabuddhe upa.t.thahitvaa, tesu parinibbutesu sa.mvegajaataa taapasapabbajjaaya pabbajitvaa uyyaane vasantii jhaanaani bhaavetvaa brahmaloke nibbattitvaa Passing away there, she was born in heaven. There, she enjoyed divine happiness thourghout that life. Passing away ther, she became the daughter of the king of Baaraa.nasii. There, she enjoyed happiness like the happiness of the devas. After a long time, Pacceka Buddhas appeared. After their final quenching, a profound stirring arose in her and she went forth [to lead] the life of n ascetic. She lived in a royal garden, developed the absorption states, and was born in a Brahmaa realm. {RD: was reborn in heaven to celestial joys, and at length took birth as the daughter of the King of Benares. There she lived gloriously, ministering to Silent Buddhas. When they passed away she was greatly troubled, and left the world for ascetic practices. Dwelling in groves, she practised Jhana, and was reborn in the Brahma heavens,} tato cutaa saagalanagare kosiyagottassa braahma.nakulassa gehe nibbattitvaa mahataa parihaarena va.d.dhitvaa vayappattaa mahaatitthagaame pipphalikumaarassa geha.m niitaa. Tasmi.m pabbajitu.m nikkhante mahanta.m bhogakkhandha.m mahanta~nca ~naatipariva.t.ta.m pahaaya pabbajjatthaaya nikkhamitvaa pa~nca vassaani titthiyaaraame pavisitvaa aparabhaage mahaapajaapatigotamiyaa santike pabbajja.m upasampada~nca labhitvaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa na cirasseva arahatta.m paapu.ni. Passing away there, she was reborn in a home in the Kosiyagotta brhaman clan in the town of Saagala. She up [receiving] great attention. When she came of age, she was led way [in marriage] to the home of Pipphali-Kumaara in the village of Mahaatittha. They departed from there in order to go forth, abandoning a great mass of wealth and a great circle of relatives, having departed for the ascetic life. She entered the Titthiyaa-raama [and stayed there] for five years. Afterwards, she went forth in the presence of Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotami. After receiving full ordination, she established insight, and after a very short time attained the state of Arahatship. {RD: and thence into the family of a brahmin of the Kosiya clan at Saagala. *185 Reared in great state, she was wedded to the young noble Pippali at the village of Mahaa-tittha. When he renounced the world she handed over her great wealth to her kinsfolk that she too might go forth; and she dwelt five years in the Sophists' Grove, *186 after which she was ordained by Great Pajaapatii the Gotamid. Establishing insight, she soon won Arahantship. *185 On the three Saagalas, see Rhys Davids, Buddhist India, p. 38. According to the Apadaana this was the capital of the Maddas (cf. Ps. lii.). Mahaatittha, the 'great ford,' was a brahmin village in Magadha. *186 Titthiyaaraama, near the Jeta Grove at Saavatthi. } === to be continued, connie #69012 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:14 pm Subject: Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > This sounds like wishful thinking on your part, amigo. Nobody cares > who you park your car in. LOL! Don't project yourself onto everyone else. You are very, very mistaken about this! > > BTW, I enjoyed your Death Train piece, but may I suggest you try to > incorporate a few words of the Buddha within your articles? I know you > appreciate the power of suttas, that would make your pieces even better. That's an idea but nothing came to my mind when I was writing that piece. If something comes to mind, I will include it; otherwise, I won't. Remember, I am not trying to teach the Dhamma- I am not qualified for that. Maybe you could post the quotes you sent to me off-list? They could be helpful for others. > > Metta, > > Phil > Metta, James #69013 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:27 pm Subject: Re: New Group rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > This sounds like wishful thinking on your part, amigo. Nobody cares > > who you park your car in. > > LOL! Don't project yourself onto everyone else. You are very, very > mistaken about this! > >__________ Dear James I better go on record to say that I have no problem with you being Gay. I can't think of any reason why it would matter at all. Robert #69014 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: >> TG: Here's where you are relying on pure theory IMO. In a sense, since > there is continuous change, we might want to say that things arise and fall away > moment by moment as each moment they become something a little different. > But the above tone is far too dogmatic IMO. In my view, the Buddha did not > teach impermanence in this way at all. Impermanence is always presented in the > Suttas as a gradual changing process. >)_______________ Dear TG I think this shows how different people read the suttas differently depnding on view. I read this suttas as suggesting arising and falling, but I know you will say it means gradual change. Robert Guhatthaka-suttaniddeso (Exposition of the Sutta of the Eightfold Mystery) Translated by Andrew Olendzki. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka Spoken by Ayusmat Sariputta. 1. "Life, personhood, pleasure and pain - This is all that's bound together In a single mental event - A moment that quickly takes place. 2. Even for the devas who endure For 84,000 thousand kalpas - Even those do not live the same For any two moments of the mind. 3. What ceases for one who is dead, Or for one who's still standing here, Are all just the same heaps - Gone, never to connect again. 4. The states which are vanishing now, And those which will vanish some day, Have characteristics no different Than those which have vanished before. 5. With no production there's no birth; With "becoming" present, one exists. When grasped with the highest meaning, The world is dead when the mind stops. 6. There's no hoarding what has vanished, No piling up for the future; Those who have been born are standing Like a seed upon a needle. 7. The vanishing of all these states That have become is not welcome, Though dissolving phenomena stand Uncombined through primordial time. 8. From the unseen, things come and go. Glimpsed only as they're passing by; Like lightning flashing in the sky - They arise and then pass away." Kathaṃ ṭhitiparittatāya appakaṃ jīvitaṃ? Atīte cittakkhaṇe jīvittha, na jīvati na jīvissati; anāgate cittakkhaṇe jīvissati, na jīvati na jīvittha; paccuppanne cittakkhaṇe jīvati, na jīvittha na jīvissati. "Jīvitaṃ attabhāvo ca, sukhadukkhā ca kevalā; ekacittasamāyuttā, lahuso vattate khaṇo. "Cullāsītisahassāni, kappā tiṭṭhanti ye marū; natveva tepi jīvanti, dvīhi cittehi saṃyutā. "Ye niruddhā marantassa, tiṭṭhamānassa vā idha; sabbepi sadisā khandhā, gatā appaṭisandhikā. "Anantarā ca ye bhaggā, ye ca bhaggā anāgatā; tadantare niruddhānaṃ, vesamaṃ natthi lakkhaṇe. "Anibbattena na jāto, paccuppannena jīvati; cittabhaggā mato loko, pańńatti paramatthiyā. "Yathā ninnā pavattanti, chandena pariṇāmitā; acchinnadhārā vattanti, saḷāyatanapaccayā. "Anidhānagatā bhaggā, puńjo natthi anāgate; nibbattā ye ca tiṭṭhanti, āragge sāsapūpamā. "Nibbattānańca dhammānaṃ, bhaṅgo nesaṃ purakkhato; palokadhammā tiṭṭhanti, purāṇehi amissitā. "Adassanato āyanti, bhaṅgā gacchanti dassanaṃ; vijjuppādova ākāse, uppajjanti vayanti cā"ti. Evaṃ ṭhitiparittatāya appakaṃ jīvitaṃ. #69015 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas, Ch 1, no 3. TGrand458@... Hi Nina, (Howard, and Herman), In a message dated 2/28/2007 11:50:55 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, In the “Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprintâ€? (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 28) we read that SĂĄriputta taught the monks about the four Great Elements. We read about the element of earth or solidity, which is translated here as “extensionâ€?: ....And what, your reverences, is the element of extension? The element of extension may be internal, it may be external. And what, your reverences, is the internal element of extension? Whatever is hard, solid, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, that is to say: the hair of the head, the hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow of the bones, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentary, stomach, excrement, or whatever other thing is hard, solid, is internal.... If the body can be seen as only elements the wrong view of self can be eradicated. Solidity can be internal or external, outside the body. Solidity is also present in what we call a mountain or a rock, in all material phenomena. SĂĄriputta reminded the monks of the impermanence of the element of extension: TG: Excuse me if I'm mistaken, but isn't this list of elements all things that you would say don't exist? There comes a time, your reverences, when the element of extension that is external is agitated; at that time the external element of extension disappears. The impermanence of this ancient external element of extension can be shown, your reverences, its liability to distruction can be shown, its liability to decay can be shown, its liability to change can be shown. So what of this shortlived body derived from craving? There is not anything here for saying, “Iâ€?, or “mineâ€? or “I amâ€?.... The impermanence of the element of solidity may manifest itself in such calamities of nature as an earthquake, but actually at each moment rĂşpas arise and then fall away, they do not last. As regards the Element of Water (in PĂĄli: ĂĄpo dhĂĄtu) or cohesion, the “Visuddhimaggaâ€? (XI, 93) defines it as follows [1] : TG: Now this is exactly what I said earlier today. "Liable to decay," liable to change, liable to destruction" is a far cry from "arising and then immediately falling away." Your "but actually" and the following "impermanence theory" is something somebody else came up with. The Suttas do not support it and in fact they go against the gist of that outlook. The Sutta you used for evidence contradicted your own case IMO. ...The water element has the characteristic of trickling. Its function is to intensify. It is manifested as holding together. The element of water or cohesion cannot be experienced through the bodysense, only through the mind-door. When we touch what we call water, it is only solidity, temperature or motion which can be experienced through the bodysense, not cohesion. Cohesion has to arise together with whatever kind of materiality arises. It makes the other rĂşpas it accompanies cohere so that they do not become scattered. The “AtthasĂĄlinĂ“ (II, Book II, Ch III, 335) explains: TG: I generally agree with the above explanation except that "water" is not an element. Water is a "predominance of coalescence" that is composed of all the Four Great Elements. Water is a "symbol/metaphor" for coalescence. Of course we CAN touch water but as you say, it is the other three elements generating the sensation, not coalescence. Coalescence is an INWARD force/motion and therefore is always "moving away" from the sense bases and therefore cannot make contact. ... For the element of cohesion binds together iron, etc., in masses, makes them rigid. Because they are so bound, they are called rigid. Similarly in the case of stones, mountains, palm-seeds, elephant- tusks, ox-horns, etc. All such things the element of cohesion binds, and makes rigid; they are rigid because of its binding. TG: I use "coalescence," not "cohesion." The above description is dealing with "firm" (sometimes called solid or hard) structures. Firm structures are a balance of inward and outward forces. I don't argue the above description as wrong, but I don't think its very comprehensive either. At any rate, the structures under consideration are the "earth/firmness element;" and water/coalescence is not a dominating force regarding such structures. (Though I'd be open to considering that there may be a very very slight coalescing dominance in such structures.) ---------- Footnote 1: See also DhammasangaĂąi § 652 and AtthasĂĄlinĂII, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 332. ******** Nina. Fun as always. TG #69016 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:02 pm Subject: Re: New Group philofillet Hi James > > This sounds like wishful thinking on your part, amigo. Nobody cares > > who you park your car in. Ph: I was going to rewrite this because people do care about "who" -the person involved - but not what parking lot, so to speak. > > LOL! Don't project yourself onto everyone else. You are very, very > mistaken about this! Ph: Yes, of course there is a lot of homophobia in the world. I just think that you misconstrued the particular instance, the puns about fairies. Connie gets carried away with wordplay, and the word did appear in the text. It was bad punnery, not hatred, I'm quite sure. I think you're holding on to that impression of her and Scott as homophobes and I think that's really ridiculous, personally. No need to get into that, though. I'll just say that. BTW,I remember hearing a surprisingly delightful talk by a Burmese Sayadaw on the charnel ground meditations. He had said that one should not contemplate a corpse of the opposite sex because one might become turned on! He said that gay men should choose female corpses to avoid getting turned on, something like that. He was giggling as he talked. I don't think it was hateful. I would say all forms of sex are good subjects for asubbha(?)meditation. They are all sources of suffering, when you get down to it in Dhamma terms. re the quotes I sent, I assume they are up on your group board, though I haven't checked yet. If not, I will surely be posting them here at some point since I reflect on them constantly. One is to wish that one lives long enough for the next breath to come, constant attention to the awareness that death could come at any moment and that our good deeds and lack of lots of evil deeds our only refuge. I forgot the one from Dhammapada. You stand at death's door but you have not made preparations for the journey! Appamada! Avoid evil, do good, develop the mind. Now! Often! Repeatedly! Metta, Phil #69017 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:54 pm Subject: Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear James > I better go on record to say that I have no problem with you being Gay. James: Well, you don't have to go on record about it, but thanks. ;- )) (And, BTW, 'gay' doesn't need to be capitalized. ;-)) > I can't think of any reason why it would matter at all. James: In one way in doesn't matter, and in another way it does matter. As far as Buddhist practice, it doesn't matter; as far as society, it does matter- and the two meet on occassion. > Robert > Metta, James P.S. Let's see just how far we could continue this discussion before someone objects that it is off-topic. Then we could see how much it matters. ;-)) Messages 69012 - 69017 of 69017 Yahoo!My Yahoo!Mail Make Y! your home page Search: Welcome, nichiconn [Sign Out, My Account] Groups Home -Help nichiconn · connieparker@intergate.com | Group Member - Edit Membership Start a Group | My Groups dhammastudygroup · Dhamma Study Group (DSG) Home Messages Post Files Photos Links Yahoo! Groups Tips Did you know... Message search is now enhanced, find messages faster. Take it for a spin. Yahoo! 360° Share your life through photos, blogs, more. Messages Messages Help Message # Search: Advanced Start Topic Messages 69018 - 69024 of 69024 Oldest | < Older | Newer > | Newest Messages: Show Message Summaries (Group by Topic) Sort by Date #69018 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:01 pm Subject: Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > Ph: Yes, of course there is a lot of homophobia in the world. I > just think that you misconstrued the particular instance, the puns > about fairies. Connie gets carried away with wordplay, and the word > did appear in the text. It was bad punnery, not hatred, I'm quite > sure. I think you're holding on to that impression of her and Scott > as homophobes and I think that's really ridiculous, personally. No > need to get into that, though. I'll just say that. James: Phil, really, you don't know my mind to make such assumptions. Actually, I wasn't thinking anything about that whole word-play incident. I think much more is revealed by what isn't said than by what is said. > > BTW,I remember hearing a surprisingly delightful talk by a Burmese > Sayadaw on the charnel ground meditations. He had said that one > should not contemplate a corpse of the opposite sex because one > might become turned on! He said that gay men should choose female > corpses to avoid getting turned on, something like that. He was > giggling as he talked. I don't think it was hateful. James: You have no idea if it was hateful or not. He could have been embarrassed, he may have thought it was funny, he might have been being sarcastic. Many things are possible. But, just the fact that he mentioned the subject says to me that his mind is open to it. Again, it is what isn't said which reveals more than what is said. I would say all > forms of sex are good subjects for asubbha(?)meditation. They are > all sources of suffering, when you get down to it in Dhamma terms. > > re the quotes I sent, I assume they are up on your group board, > though I haven't checked yet. If not, I will surely be posting them > here at some point since I reflect on them constantly. One is to > wish that one lives long enough for the next breath to come, > constant attention to the awareness that death could come at any > moment and that our good deeds and lack of lots of evil deeds our > only refuge. I forgot the one from Dhammapada. You stand at death's > door but you have not made preparations for the journey! Appamada! > Avoid evil, do good, develop the mind. Now! Often! Repeatedly! James: Go ahead and post them here. They would be helpful for everyone, I think. > > Metta, > > Phil > Metta, James #69019 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group egberdina Hi James and Phil, On 01/03/07, Phil wrote: > > Hi James > > Ph: I was going to rewrite this because people do care > about "who" -the person involved - but not what parking lot, so to > speak. > > > > > LOL! Don't project yourself onto everyone else. You are very, > very > > mistaken about this! > > Ph: Yes, of course there is a lot of homophobia in the world. I don't doubt that this is true either. But I have not read anything at dsg which I thought was homophobic. The question arises in me, though, are you sure you are not homophobic James? I expect that will sound ridiculous to some, but I simply mean, are you fully accepting of your own sexuality and orientation? My brother's son is gay, and he seems to struggle enormously with it, to the point of drug overdoses and other suicide attempts. > > BTW,I remember hearing a surprisingly delightful talk by a Burmese > Sayadaw on the charnel ground meditations. He had said that one > should not contemplate a corpse of the opposite sex because one > might become turned on! He said that gay men should choose female > corpses to avoid getting turned on, something like that. He was > giggling as he talked. I don't think it was hateful. I would say all > forms of sex are good subjects for asubbha(?)meditation. They are > all sources of suffering, when you get down to it in Dhamma terms. > I thought this was very good, Phil. I can honestly say that I am not accepting of the fact that I am a sexual being. To say that I am a sexual being is actually false, it is more accurate to say that sexuality is me, at least a huge part of me. I see it with myself, my wife, my children, my friends, my extended family, sexuality drives more behaviour in us then we sometimes care to admit. Don't be mistaken, my wife and I enjoy a very happy sexual relationship together, but is sexual activity anything anyone would dream of doing if one wasn't driven to it? In closing, James, I don't doubt that there are some here who think they have a superior understanding of what right view is all about, but certainly I have seen no public expressions here that there is a right sexuality :-) Kind Regards Herman #69020 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:47 pm Subject: Good Job egberdina Hey all, I think you are all doing a splendid job in the threads in which you are participating :-) Kind Regards Herman #69021 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:59 pm Subject: Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi James and Phil, > > On 01/03/07, Phil wrote: > > > > Hi James > > > > Ph: I was going to rewrite this because people do care > > about "who" -the person involved - but not what parking lot, so to > > speak. > > > > > > > > LOL! Don't project yourself onto everyone else. You are very, > > very > > > mistaken about this! > > > > Ph: Yes, of course there is a lot of homophobia in the world. > > I don't doubt that this is true either. But I have not read anything > at dsg which I thought was homophobic. James: So I suppose that means that DSG is completely gay-friendly? Herman, I thought that you were smarter than that! Anyway, you can read my recent response to Phil to piece it together. Remember, I have psychic abilities. This group isn't gay-friendly, it is just tightly moderated. The question arises in me, > though, are you sure you are not homophobic James? I expect that will > sound ridiculous to some, but I simply mean, are you fully accepting > of your own sexuality and orientation? My brother's son is gay, and he > seems to struggle enormously with it, to the point of drug overdoses > and other suicide attempts. James: I like your questions! They are very striking. Every gay person has some amount of homophobia in him/her if they come from a homophobic culture. To a great extent, we are a product of our environment. Do you think I have such strong internalized homophobia that I would resort to drug overdoses and suicide attempts? I will assume you must think so to some extent or you wouldn't have asked the question. Well, no, I don't think I do. I have been accepting of my gayness since I was 18 (when still a virgin I realized I was oriented that way) and I told my parents a few months later. I have been out to my family and my friends since then. I am also usually out at my work (though I was fired in Egypt for that reason so went back in the closet at work). I would say that I am pretty well- adjusted when it comes to that subject. However, I am extremely screwed up when it comes to my disfunctional family, childhood, and siblings who have both died through drug use (who were straight, BTW). > > > > > BTW,I remember hearing a surprisingly delightful talk by a Burmese > > Sayadaw on the charnel ground meditations. He had said that one > > should not contemplate a corpse of the opposite sex because one > > might become turned on! He said that gay men should choose female > > corpses to avoid getting turned on, something like that. He was > > giggling as he talked. I don't think it was hateful. I would say all > > forms of sex are good subjects for asubbha(?)meditation. They are > > all sources of suffering, when you get down to it in Dhamma terms. > > > > I thought this was very good, Phil. I can honestly say that I am not > accepting of the fact that I am a sexual being. To say that I am a > sexual being is actually false, it is more accurate to say that > sexuality is me, at least a huge part of me. I see it with myself, my > wife, my children, my friends, my extended family, sexuality drives > more behaviour in us then we sometimes care to admit. Don't be > mistaken, my wife and I enjoy a very happy sexual relationship > together, but is sexual activity anything anyone would dream of doing > if one wasn't driven to it? James: Herman, unless you have reached the stage of once-returner or non-returner, it is rather strange to be thinking in this way. Now it is my turn to ask you if you possibly have psychological difficulties with sexuality in general? > In closing, James, I don't doubt that there are some here who think > they have a superior understanding of what right view is all about, > but certainly I have seen no public expressions here that there is a > right sexuality :-) James: Well, of course not- or I would have left the group long ago. That doesn't mean I feel completely accepted or open to talk about my gayness. It isn't an either/or, black or white situation. Frankly, straight men have very little understanding of what it is like for gay men. Women have more understanding because they face all kinds of discrimination, practically daily, and most of it is subtle and unspoken. > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > Metta, James ps. I'm still waiting for someone to object that this subject is off- topic. Who will it be?? ;-)) #69022 From: "colette" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Group, bad choice of words for a buddhist consciousness! New/Old? ksheri3 Hi all, it saves time from writing the entire list of names I speak of here. Ah, but since Nina's name was mentioned I can go with this one as when I re-read it before walking, HER NAME CAME TO MIND. Lobha, by Sujin Boriharnwanaket. In reality none can escape from lobha-mula-citta (the citta rooted or based on attachnment and clinging, the desire to be or to have), no matter through the eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. (...)" A VERY PROFOUND STATEMENT AND COGNITION. moving on: > S: As far as Jon and I are concerned 'personal' is not a 'dirty word' and > neither is 'controversial'. I doubt there'd be a list without > controversy:-). colette: Although I'm speaking with Sarah here EAVESDROPPING IS EXPECTED if not required. This works very well with a paper I'm grasping at this moment "It has been said that Buddha's teachings are with reference to these two kinds of truth, viz. samvrti and paramartha. Those who do not understand the difference between these two truths, shall not understand the spirit of the profound teaching of Buddha. Look, Sarah, at what you just said and inferred to: that our life, for that matter any life, has in it's operation the necessity of the akusala. I mean this in reference to your applications of the words "personal", "dirty words", and "controversy". I interpreted this as meaning that there are those among us that EXPECT, if not DEMAND, that the course of enlightenment is to come without any waves in the pond. There is to be no crest, such as a Zenith, nor is there to be that bottom, which could be the Nadir. It, the study of Buddha, is to be without conflict. That sounds as though there are those advocates out there that cannot live or have a life without a STATUS QUO, a norm. Debate comes along with those three things since I've found that an aspirant on the path of enlightenment should've have first and foremost began their meditations possessing the CERTAINTY that it is THEIR PERSON, THEIR SELF, which is being debated; and then we get to those lovely terms "dirty word" and "controversy". CONTROVERSY, my, my, my, isn't controversy simply nothing greater than the attack of/on the status quo, since it is a known fact that in a stagnant pond where bacteria fester, flies linger, etc, there is STAGNATION, there is no controversy, it is a sympatico existence where the HOST/PARASITE relationship is the ORDER OF THE DAY, maybe the Soup De Jour. Controversy is the necessity which propells this world forward although there are parts of the Muslim theological tradition that are hell-bent on propelling all societies backward to a position of ignorance, lets not laugh too hard at a group of people that WORSHIP IGNORANCE. As for "dirty words" I'll just ask you to find HBO, the show is called, Lewis Black, SCREWED, where he specifically deals with the problems of "dirty words". > > The only time we take anyone to task is when the list guidelines are not > being followed. colette: this is my main pet-pieve but I am so honored to have a lot of SCHOLARS out there that actually READ MY MATERIAL and they understand it from a magikal point of view. These scholars permit me through, give me the RIGHT OF PASSAGE, as say a Visa or Passport would do. There is a need to have "guidelines" but I lose efficaciousness when I am forced to follow the rules as laid down by some hypothetical dungeon master. ;-) > I think everyone would be happy with this and it would save us having any > more mod dilemmas first thing when we wake up - as Colette suggested the > other day, we have our fill:-). colette: Sarah, what is it that you refer to here since I can only dream up sooooooo many jokes to play on that one, "we have our fill". Oh the humor of life, it's TRAGIC-COMEDY qualities, LAUGH AND THE WORLD LAUGHS WITH YOU CRY AND THE WORLD LAUGHS AT YOU. I've gotta move on, gotta get home soon. toodles, colette #69023 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:14 pm Subject: Re: New Group nichiconn Hi Fellows, Phil: Connie gets carried away with wordplay, and the word did appear in the text. It was bad punnery... Connie: Indeed, she does. And all punnery is bad, but I still like it. And the word "queer". And James, or the James I imagine anyway. As far as sexual relations go, they're all defiled and perverted in my book. Maybe I'm eroto-phobic. As for the Death Train, if we die when we're all wrapped up in the pleasure of sensual indulgence, I think the texts say we can expect one of two destinations: either the animal or hell realms. Ah, love & the things we do in it's name. peace, connie #69024 From: connie Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:14 pm Subject: re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (37) nichiconn Dear Sisters Enthusiasts, sorry for the careless mistakes in the last post (#69011). The amended paragraph: Passing away there, she was reborn in a home in the Kosiyagotta brahman clan in the town of Saagala. She grew up [receiving] great attention. When she came of age, she was led way [in marriage] to the home of Pipphali-Kumaara in the village of Mahaatittha. They departed from there in order to go forth, abandoning a great mass of wealth and a great circle of relatives, having departed for the ascetic life. She entered the Titthiyaa-realm [and stayed there] for five years. Afterwards, she went forth in the presence of Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotami. After receiving full ordination, she established insight, and after a very short time attained the state of Arahatship. I also spelled 'there' with no final 'e' in another place in that post, but I'm sure you could figure that one out. Also, Sarah, thanks for pointing out that Mettikaa (#68298) threw down her outer, not "out", robe. The verse should have read: 30. I threw down my outer robe and turned my bowl upside down, I sat down on a rock. Then my mind was completely released. I have obtained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. I'm sure there have been and will be more mistakes, but will try to be more careful. Thank you for your patience. (And you can thank mom for reading Pruitt's book now or I'd probably be adding even more footnotes from there along with Mrs. R-D's}. peace, connie #69025 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group egberdina Hi James, On 01/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > > > I don't doubt that this is true either. But I have not read anything > > at dsg which I thought was homophobic. > > James: So I suppose that means that DSG is completely gay-friendly? > Herman, I thought that you were smarter than that! Anyway, you can > read my recent response to Phil to piece it together. Remember, I > have psychic abilities. This group isn't gay-friendly, it is just > tightly moderated. > The reason why I asked further down whether you were accepting of your own sexuality was not because I thought you were going to self-harm, but because if you were accepting of the way things are, you wouldn't give a h**t (hoot :-)) what others may or may not think about you. > > > > I thought this was very good, Phil. I can honestly say that I am not > > accepting of the fact that I am a sexual being. To say that I am a > > sexual being is actually false, it is more accurate to say that > > sexuality is me, at least a huge part of me. I see it with myself, > my > > wife, my children, my friends, my extended family, sexuality drives > > more behaviour in us then we sometimes care to admit. Don't be > > mistaken, my wife and I enjoy a very happy sexual relationship > > together, but is sexual activity anything anyone would dream of > doing > > if one wasn't driven to it? > > James: Herman, unless you have reached the stage of once-returner or > non-returner, it is rather strange to be thinking in this way. Now > it is my turn to ask you if you possibly have psychological > difficulties with sexuality in general? I have psychological difficulties with suffering, and I think that what drives sexuality and what drives suffering could not be separated by so much as the width of a narrow pubic hair :-). And in my defence, I call as witnesses the Vinaya and the Suttas. > > > In closing, James, I don't doubt that there are some here who think > > they have a superior understanding of what right view is all about, > > but certainly I have seen no public expressions here that there is a > > right sexuality :-) > > James: Well, of course not- or I would have left the group long ago. > That doesn't mean I feel completely accepted or open to talk about my > gayness. It isn't an either/or, black or white situation. Frankly, > straight men have very little understanding of what it is like for > gay men. Don't you be projecting now about who is what, you hear! :-) Truth be known, there are folks at dsg that rub me up the wrong way. And I'm sure there are folks at dsg who think the same about me. So what? Mindfully, one is aware that there is no benefit in pursuing right judgment, but there is bliss right here and right now for anyone who suspends judgment altogether!! Cheers, you geriatric fairy :-) Herman #69026 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Cheers, you geriatric fairy :-) > > LOL! You are completely incorrigible! ;-)) Metta, James P.S. Suffering isn't what drives sexuality, ignorance is; and unless you have eliminated ignorance, sexuality should still be present. And, there shouldn't be aversion to sexuality- that isn't what the Buddha taught! But, I am too tired to argue it anymore. Grandpa needs to go take a nap now. ;-)) #69027 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 2:35 am Subject: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nilovg Hi TG, thank you for your useful remarks. ------- TG: We can learn that in the ultimate sense there is not a hard thing, and there is no body. There is just the contact of element on element. TG: I like and agree with this for the most part. However, I think it puts too much emphasis on NO to body and hard thing ... and YES to elements. There is a way of looking at things that would have the mind think "there is a body." There is another way of looking at it that would have the mind think "there is no body." ------- N: You are right. We have to find a balance. It may look like annihilation. I like to keep in mind what I read in the Visuddhimagga about past life and this life: neither the same nor another. There is some continuity. When we think of the four factors that keep on producing rupas throughout this lifespan, we can also see some continuity in a life. The rupa that is eyesense falls away completely, there is nothing left. But already kamma produces a new eyesense. It is kamma not of someone else, but of this particualr person. --------- There is nothing left of that lute. Seeing falls away, and I do not see a gradual change of seeing. Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. There is no time for a gradual change. -------- TG: I personally think the above account of impermanence -- rupas being replaced by new rupas, etc. -- is just flat wrong and not useful in applying insight. Also, it lacks a conditional component which I think is counterproductive to insight. ------ N: Eyesense falls away and is replaced, otherwise you would not be seeing now. So long as kamma produces eyesense in your life there are conditions for seeing. You do not create your own seeing, you do not own it. Concitions are being taught all the time, both for namas and for rupas. Also, when we realize that a reality that falls away falls away completely, helps us to have less conceit, clinging to my important personality. Even when we understand this in theory, it helps us to think in the correct way. This can condition direct understanding. We have to begin somewhere and the right beginning, correct intellectual understanding is what supports the development of insight later on. Gradually so! Don't you think so? Nina. #69028 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 3:09 am Subject: Q,. Rupas. Ch 1, no 2. Science. nilovg Hi Howard, -------- So, Nina, what you believe to be the case is fact, and the quarks and so on of the physicists are not? I don't know how you know that. To me it makes more sense to say I believe something to be the case rather than I know it to be so when, in fact, I don't really know it to be so. ------- N: I study the Tipataka and Commentaries and I have confidence in them. What is taught in these texts I find very reasonable, it makes sense to me. I do not know anything about physics, but this cannot be compared to the Dhamma. Physics do not lead to liberation. I would rather replace the word belief by having confidence in. Confidence, saddhaa is a sobhana cetasika, arising with sobhana cittas. Thus, it is wholesome confidence, not blind faith. It is based on understanding, even if this understanding is still intellectual understanding, not yet insight, direct understanding. --------- H: Now, I happen to believe in rupas also, Nina, very much so. But I take them to be elements of experience - physical experience, and not liitle bits of material. ------ N: Rupas are elements and they can be objects experienced by citta which is also an element. Element means: a reality devoid of self. Physical experience is not so clear: an experience is not physical, it is nama. But you mean: experience of physical phenomena. ------- H: For a science of materials I'd sooner turn to the chemists and physicists circa 2007. But the main point of my question is how studying about rupas as opposed to subatomic particles is particularly suited to leading towards awakening and liberation. The subatomic particles of physics are every bit as anicca, sankhata, and anatta as are the rupas. ------------------------------------- N: Science has another angle, see above. Why not be in comformity with the texts that teach us about nama and rupa? Read again the “Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprint” (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 28) where we read that Sĺriputta taught the monks about the four Great Elements. We read about the element of earth or solidity, which is translated here as “extension”: <....And what, your reverences, is the element of extension? The element of extension may be internal, it may be external. And what, your reverences, is the internal element of extension? Whatever is hard, solid, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, that is to say: the hair of the head, the hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow of the bones, kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentary, stomach, excrement, or whatever other thing is hard, solid, is internal....> Note, there is internal solidity and external solidity. ---------- > Take hardness, the element of solidity that appears through the > bodysense whenever we touch something hard. We can learn that in the > ultimate sense there is not a hard thing, and there is no body. There > is just the contact of element on element. > At each moment all the rupas of the body arise, due to the four > factors and then they fall away, there is nothing left of them. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Do you observe this falling away and replacement? We read that this happens, just as we read that to be so for the subatomic particles. Has any of such reading *shown* you the radical impermanence of phenomena? Do you expect it to? --------------------------------------- N: Not yet, but I have confidence that this is the right way. If the right way is developed it will surely lead to such result. --------- But > > rupas are replaced by new rupas and then our body seems such a solid > thing that remains. In reality there is nothing left when at each > moment each rupa falls away. This can be realized through the > development of insight. > We see people walking and moving their hands, and it is because of > sa~n~na that we perceive this. In reality at each splitsecond all > rupas fall away, nothing is left. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, yes - I believe this too. Belief is just belief. -------- N: Again, shall we replace belief by confidence. And this should not be unwarranted. Based on thorough study and consideration of the entire Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included. ----------------------------------------- > > Molecules do not have characteristics that can be directly > experienced, knowing about them does not lead to detachment. One can > think about them, but thinking is only thinking. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Do you directly experience rupas? I know you believe they can be experienced, somehow. Actually, subatomic particles can in a way be experienced. ------------------------------------------- N: Note: I mean experienced by kusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa. We all experience hardness, but not necessarily by pa~n~naa. It is experienced by the citta that is body-consciousness, and after that kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. There can be akusala cittas with ignorance that experience hardness. The characteristics of rupa can be gradually understood and this leads to detachment. This is different from looking at subatomic particles. Is this done with understanding and detachment? The goal is quite different. ---------- ===================== H:The point of my posts on this is twofold: 1) Belief is just belief, and 2) Knowing does not come about just on the basis of belief. ------- N: Confidence which is kusala and which is strengthened by understanding. When one has confidence in the teachings one will study and consider more what is taught. One will also understand that sati and pa~n~naa do not arise by 'wanting to know' with attachment. From the beginning one has to remember that they cannot be induced, that they only arise because of the right conditions. Is this attitude not different from the scientist who wants to know more about the atoms? You cannot compare the two fields. Nina. #69029 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 3/1/07 12:14:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: > Maybe I'm eroto-phobic. As for the Death Train, if we die when > we're all wrapped up in the pleasure of sensual indulgence, I think the > texts say we can expect one of two destinations: either the animal or hell > realms. > ====================== Lots of humans heading for warrens or for hell, Connie! ;-) Ya know, the human realm is said to be the most auspicious for progress on the path, but without sex, there would be no humans. (Not too many virgin births reported these days!) You might note, also, that sexual relations are not proscribed for laypersons. (No pun here, Connie! ;-) With metta, Howard, getting some posting in before leaving for the airport #69030 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q,. Rupas. Ch 1, no 2. Science. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/1/07 6:10:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > -------- > So, Nina, what you believe to be the case is fact, and the quarks and > so on of the physicists are not? I don't know how you know that. To > me it > makes more sense to say I believe something to be the case rather > than I know it > to be so when, in fact, I don't really know it to be so. > ------- > N: I study the Tipataka and Commentaries and I have confidence in > them. What is taught in these texts I find very reasonable, it makes > sense to me. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I have confidence in it as well, in part due to my experience, but mostly due to what I consider plausible belief. I cannot claim to *know*, however, and thus cannot "state as fact". We do not interpret all of what we read in the same way, though. -------------------------------------------- > I do not know anything about physics, but this cannot be compared to > the Dhamma. Physics do not lead to liberation. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Nor just reading the tipitaka and discussing it, IMO. That is just the necessary beginning. Reading of the fleeting, impersonal, conditioned, ghostlike muons and quarks isn't different from reading over the lists of the fleeting, impersonal, conditioned, ghostlike rupas, especially provided that rupas are viewed as elementary particles of matter. I think it is an error to view rupas as comparable to the elements of particle physics, though the Abhidhamma, or at least some interpretations of Abhidhamma, do view them as such. They need to be viewed, I believe, as phenomenological events, as constituting the physical content of consciousness. They, and mental operations, alone and in aggregation, are what are taken for self - they form the matrix of our seemingly very personal, but actually quite impersonal, reality. Nobody takes molecules, atoms, electrons, muons, quarks, and strings personally, but folks do take such experiences as hardness, itches, warmth, sights, sounds, and so on, quite personally. -------------------------------------------- > I would rather replace the word belief by having confidence in. > Confidence, saddhaa is a sobhana cetasika, arising with sobhana > cittas. Thus, it is wholesome confidence, not blind faith. It is > based on understanding, even if this understanding is still > intellectual understanding, not yet insight, direct understanding. > --------- > H: Now, I happen to believe in rupas also, Nina, very much so. But I > take > them to be elements of experience - physical experience, and not > liitle bits > of material. > ------ > N: Rupas are elements and they can be objects experienced by citta > which is also an element. Element means: a reality devoid of self. > Physical experience is not so clear: an experience is not physical, > it is nama. But you mean: experience of physical phenomena. > ------- > > H: For a science of materials I'd sooner turn to the chemists and > physicists circa 2007. > But the main point of my question is how studying about rupas as > opposed to subatomic particles is particularly suited to leading > towards awakening > and liberation. The subatomic particles of physics are every bit as > anicca, > sankhata, and anatta as are the rupas. > ------------------------------------- > N: Science has another angle, see above. Why not be in comformity > with the texts that teach us about nama and rupa? Read again the > “Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant’s Footprintâ€? (Middle > Length Sayings I, no. 28) where we read that SĂĄriputta taught the > monks about the four Great Elements. We read about the element of > earth or solidity, which is translated here as “extensionâ€?: ----------------------------------------- Howard: I've explained above that I think that rupas are quite different from the particles of the physicists. But there is a similarity in terms of anicca and anatta. If rupas are thought of as material elements that share properties with the theorized particles of particle physics, then reading about the ephemeral aspect of one is no more useful than reading about the ephemeral aspect of the other. My point is that rupas, being experiential realities, not particulate matter, can, by following the Buddha's training, come to have their nature be directly known by with wisdom. ------------------------------------------ > > <....And what, your reverences, is the element of extension? The > element of extension may be internal, it may be external. And what, > your reverences, is the internal element of extension? Whatever is > hard, solid, is internal, referable to an individual and derived > therefrom, that is to say: the hair of the head, the hair of the > body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow of the bones, > kidney, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentary, > stomach, excrement, or whatever other thing is hard, solid, is > internal....> > Note, there is internal solidity and external solidity. > ---------- > > >Take hardness, the element of solidity that appears through the > >bodysense whenever we touch something hard. We can learn that in the > >ultimate sense there is not a hard thing, and there is no body. There > >is just the contact of element on element. > >At each moment all the rupas of the body arise, due to the four > >factors and then they fall away, there is nothing left of them. > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Do you observe this falling away and replacement? We read that this > happens, just as we read that to be so for the subatomic particles. > Has any of > such reading *shown* you the radical impermanence of phenomena? Do > you expect > it to? > --------------------------------------- > N: Not yet, but I have confidence that this is the right way. If the > right way is developed it will surely lead to such result. ------------------------------------------ Howard: *What* is the right way? Reading & thinking over? ------------------------------------------- > --------- > But > > >rupas are replaced by new rupas and then our body seems such a solid > >thing that remains. In reality there is nothing left when at each > >moment each rupa falls away. This can be realized through the > >development of insight. > >We see people walking and moving their hands, and it is because of > >sa~n~na that we perceive this. In reality at each splitsecond all > >rupas fall away, nothing is left. > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes, yes - I believe this too. Belief is just belief. > -------- > N: Again, shall we replace belief by confidence. And this should not > be unwarranted. Based on thorough study and consideration of the > entire Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I very strongly disagree that this is the teaching of the Buddha. This is just the path of the scholar. It's a nice path, wholesome - but, in itself, no more than that. ----------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------- > > > >Molecules do not have characteristics that can be directly > >experienced, knowing about them does not lead to detachment. One can > >think about them, but thinking is only thinking. > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Do you directly experience rupas? I know you believe they can be > experienced, somehow. Actually, subatomic particles can in a way be > experienced. > ------------------------------------------- > N: Note: I mean experienced by kusala citta accompanied by pa~n~naa. > We all experience hardness, but not necessarily by pa~n~naa. It is > experienced by the citta that is body-consciousness, and after that > kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. There can be akusala cittas > with ignorance that experience hardness. > The characteristics of rupa can be gradually understood and this > leads to detachment. This is different from looking at subatomic > particles. Is this done with understanding and detachment? The goal > is quite different. > ---------- > ===================== > H:The point of my posts on this is twofold: 1) Belief is just belief, > and 2) Knowing does not come about just on the basis of belief. > ------- > N: Confidence which is kusala and which is strengthened by > understanding. > When one has confidence in the teachings one will study and consider > more what is taught. One will also understand that sati and pa~n~naa > do not arise by 'wanting to know' with attachment. > From the beginning one has to remember that they cannot be induced, > that they only arise because of the right conditions. Is this > attitude not different from the scientist who wants to know more > about the atoms? You cannot compare the two fields. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that they cannot be compared. We disagree as to the reason and as to the significance. ----------------------------------------- > Nina. > ====================== With metta, Howard #69031 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 5:01 am Subject: Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. I'll just add some from the 2001-10-27-b, clarifying what we are discussing: Kh. Sujin: "... because its so short and we do not have time to think which doorway but since it has to be through sense-door otherwise ruupa cannot appear ... because you ... kusala with pa~n~naa can arise through sense-door, not only mind-door, but when and how ... without awareness how can there be the right understanding of ruupa ... without the right understanding through vipassaana-~naana through the mind-door its impossible to have the right understanding of ruupa as ruupa ... vipassaana-~naana can understand the characteristics of naama and ruupa ... the other doorway can have the kusala with pa~n~naa at the sense-door ... Q: "... the sense-door ... then mind-door but then ruupa has fallen away...how can mind-door experience the ruupa? Kh. Sujin: "See but its there ... its gone but its there because the ruupa does not arise just once [in a door-way] - many, many, many all the time ... Can we have precise understanding [of} which doorway right now? Mind-door or sense-door. But the development of understanding from the very beginning - one cannot understand the distinction between the two - mind-door process and sense-door process but there can be the development of the understanding of the characteristic of naama as not-me and ruupa as not me or mine. Because usually there is seeing and there is ignorance about it ... but pa~n~na and awareness can arise after seeing...not thinking about concept. Instead of thinking about concept, right awareness is there very naturally and there can be the development of understanding little by little. [There is] no time to think about which doorway. So...after the sense-door has fallen away and then mind-door process must have the same object - the same but not the one...it cannot be the one, but it can be the same...Right now - its exactly like this moment. Anything must be like this moment that pa~n~na can understand it...its like two sheets of paper...very thin paper...when you drop water - a drop of water - it goes through [to the] second one instantly. Can you stop it? Can you help it not to be like that? It has to be like that...the object has to be exactly the same as the sense-door process... Q: "At that moment of the mind-door process is it true to say that the object is a concept, or a reality, or something that is neither a concept or a reality? Kh. Sujin: "... Whenever paramattha dhamma is not the object it must be concept which is the object ... but when there is no concept just the characterisic of reality appears succeeded because there is not just one process of reality that appears and then is completely gone ... exactly the same object like this but there is nobody only the dhaatu- that dhaatu experiences object like this no suppression between the sense-door and the mind door by thinking at all it just experiences... when we talk about concept, if there is the characteristic [that] succeeds just suddenly instantly and it is the characteristic of paramattha dhamma its said that it is paramattha dhamma and it is also present too because its not the thought about paramattha dhamma but its the moment when paramattha dhamma succeeds the appearance from sense-door to mind-door and now ... the ruupa which has arisen has fallen away so it must be the new one all the time but we cannot know which one is the object of awareness but the characteristic of it appears so it can be this one or that one or what ones?...not only one ruupa appears now..." How did you understand the distinction that was made between the experience of ruupa at the sense-door, and the subsequent experience of the characteristic of that ruupa (but not that ruupa) at the mind-door? I like the below: N: "... hard is hard, no matter there is no sati or there is sati. When there is awareness hardness is still hardness, but then hardness can be known as a reality, and the experience can be known as another type of reality." In other words hardness - ruupa - exists whether it becomes an object of sati or not. Sincerely, Scott. #69032 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 6:55 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (37) nichiconn Dear Friends, Bhaddaa of the Kaapilaas, part two of four: Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.3.244-313)- "Padumuttaro naama jino, sabbadhammaana paaraguu; ito satasahassamhi, kappe uppajji naayako. "Tadaahu ha.msavatiya.m, videho naama naamato; se.t.thii pahuutaratano, tassa jaayaa ahosaha.m. "Kadaaci so naraadicca.m, upecca saparijjano; dhammamassosi buddhassa, sabbadukkhabhayappaha.m. "Saavaka.m dhutavaadaana.m, agga.m kittesi naayako; sutvaa sattaahika.m daana.m, datvaa buddhassa taadino. "Nipacca sirasaa paade, ta.m .thaanamabhipatthayi.m; sa haasayanto parisa.m, tadaa hi narapu"ngavo. As it is said in the Apadaana: One hundred thousand aeons ago, the Conqueror and Leader named Padumuttara, who reached the far shore of all phenomena, was born. There was at that time a wealthy merchant named Videha who had many jewels in Ha.msavatii. I was his wife. One day, he went to the Sun Among Men with his retinue and heard the Doctrine of the Buddha which gets rid of all misery and fear. The Leader praised a disciple as being foremost among those who speak of asceticism. Having heard this, he [my husband] gave a seven-day gift to the unique Buddha. He fell down head first at the feet [of the Buddha] and aspired to that position. He, that Bull Among Men, gladdened the hearts of the assembly. "Se.t.thino anukampaaya, imaa gaathaa abhaasatha; lacchase patthita.m .thaana.m, nibbuto hohi puttaka. "Satasahassito kappe, okkaakakulasambhavo; gotamo naama gottena, satthaa loke bhavissati. "Tassa dhammesu daayaado, oraso dhammanimmito; kassapo naama gottena, hessati satthu saavako. "Ta.m sutvaa mudito hutvaa, yaavajiiva.m tadaa jina.m; mettacitto paricari, paccayehi vinaayaka.m. "Saasana.m jotayitvaana, so madditvaa kutitthiye; veneyya.m vinayitvaa ca, nibbuto so sasaavako. Out of sympathy for the merchant, [the Buddha] spoke these verses: "You will obtain the desired position. Be one who becomes quenched, my son. "One hundred thousand world cycles from now, there will be reborn in the world the Teacher who will be named Gotama through his lineage, a descendant of the Okkaaka clan. "At that time there will be a disciple of the Teacher named Kasapa who will be an heir to the Doctrine, a legitimate offspring of the Doctrine." As soon as he heard this, he was filled with appreciative joy, and then, thoughout his life, he served the Leader, the Conqueror, with the requisites, his heart full of loving kindness. He [the Buddha] caused the teachings to shine forth, crushed the members of wrong sects, and instructed those whe were amenable to instruction. He, together with his disciples, was quenched. "Nibbute tamhi lokagge, puujanatthaaya satthuno; ~naatimitte samaanetvaa, saha tehi akaarayi. "Sattayojanika.m thuupa.m, ubbiddha.m ratanaamaya.m; jalanta.m satara.msi.mva, saalaraaja.mva phullita.m. "Sattasatasahassaani, paatiyo tattha kaarayi; na.laggii viya jotantii, rataneheva sattahi. "Gandhatelena puuretvaa, diipaanujjalayii tahi.m; puujanatthaaya mahesissa, sabbabhuutaanukampino. "Sattasatasahassaani, pu.n.nakumbhaani kaarayi; rataneheva pu.n.naani, puujanatthaaya mahesino. After the Chief of the World was quenched, he [my husband] brought together his friends and relatives in order to pay homage to the Teacher. He built a monument that was seven leagues high, made of jewels shining like the sun or like a saala tree in bloom. He made seven hundred thousand bowls there that shone with the seven jewels just like a fire of reeds. He filled lamps with scented oil that blazed up there to pay homage to the Great Sage, the One Who Had Sympathy for All Beings. He made seven hundred thousand full jars, full of jewels to pay homage to the Great Sage. "Majjhe a.t.tha.t.thakumbhiina.m, ussitaa ka~ncanagghiyo; atirocanti va.n.nena, saradeva divaakaro. "Catudvaaresu sobhanti, tora.naa ratanaamayaa; ussitaa phalakaa rammaa, sobhanti ratanaamayaa. "Virocanti parikkhittaa, ava.ta.msaa sunimmitaa; ussitaani pa.taakaani, ratanaani virocare. "Suratta.m sukata.m citta.m, cetiya.m ratanaamaya.m; atirocati va.n.nena, sasa~njhova divaakaro. "Thuupassa vediyo tisso, haritaalena puurayi; eka.m manosilaayeka.m, a~njanena ca ekika.m. He erected golden floral tiers in the middle of every group of eight jars, and they outshone the splendour of the autumn sun. The portals of the four gateways shone, made of jewels. Delightful slabs erected there shone, made of jewels. Well-made ornaments all around were shining. Flags erected on high and jewels were shining. The shrine was very colourful, variegated, made of jewels. Through it's splendour it outshone [all else] as the sun does the moon. The monument had three ledges. One he filled with yellow orpiment, one with red arsenic, and one with collyrium. "Puuja.m etaadisa.m ramma.m, kaaretvaa varavaadino; adaasi daana.m sa"nghassa, yaavajiiva.m yathaabala.m. "Sahaava se.t.thinaa tena, taani pu~n~naani sabbaso; yaavajiiva.m karitvaana, sahaava sugati.m gataa. "Sampattiyonubhotvaana, devatte atha maanuse; chaayaa viya sariirena, saha teneva sa.msari.m. "Ekanavutito kappe, vipassii naama naayako; uppajji caarudassano, sabbadhammavipassako. "Tadaaya.m bandhupatiya.m, braahma.no saadhusammato; a.d.dho santo gu.nenaapi, dhanena ca suduggato. Having made such a delightful offering to the Best of Speakers, he gave gift[s] to the Order, as much as he could for as long as he lived. Now having done all of those meritorious deeds together with that merchant as long as we lived, I went with him to a happy existence. We enjoyed both divine and human blissful states. I journeyed on with him like a shadow accompanying a body. Ninety-one aeons ago, the leader named Vipassi was born, of delightful appearance, clearly seeing all phenomena. At that time, he [my former husband] was a highly honoured brahman in Bandhumatii, rich in peaceful qualities but very poor in wealth. "Tadaapi tassaaha.m aasi.m, braahma.nii samacetasaa; kadaaci so dijavaro, sa"ngamesi mahaamuni.m. "Nisinna.m janakaayamhi, desenta.m amata.m pada.m; sutvaa dhamma.m pamudito, adaasi ekasaa.taka.m. "Gharamekena vatthena, gantvaaneta.m sa mabravi; anumoda mahaapu~n~na.m, dinna.m buddhassa saa.taka.m. "Tadaaha.m a~njali.m katvaa, anumodi.m supii.nitaa; sudinno saa.tako saami, buddhase.t.thassa taadino. "Sukhito sajjito hutvaa, sa.msaranto bhavaabhave; baaraa.nasipure ramme, raajaa aasi mahiipati. And at that time I was the wife of that brahman. I was even minded. One day, he met that Excellent Brahman, the Great Sage. [The Great Sage] was seated with a group of people, teaching the undying place. When he heard the Doctrine, [the brahman] was delighted and gave a single robe. He went home with [only] one article of clothing and said to me, "Rejoice in our great merit! A robe has been given to the Buddha." Then I paid homage and rejoiced, well pleased, "O husband, that robe was well given to that venerable one, the Best of Buddhas." Happy and joyous, we journeyed on in various existences. In the delightful city of Baaraa.nasii, he was the king, the lord of the earth. "Tadaa tassa mahesiiha.m, itthigumbassa uttamaa; tassaati dayitaa aasi.m, pubbasnehena bhattuno. "Pi.n.daaya vicarante te, a.t.tha paccekanaayake; disvaa pamudito hutvaa, datvaa pi.n.da.m mahaaraha.m. "Puno nimantayitvaana, katvaa ratanama.n.dapa.m; kammaarehi kata.m patta.m, sova.n.na.m vata tattaka.m. "Samaanetvaana te sabbe, tesa.m daanamadaasi so; so.n.naasane pavi.t.thaana.m, pasanno sehi paa.nibhi. "Tampi daana.m sahaadaasi.m, kaasiraajenaha.m tadaa; punaaha.m baaraa.nasiya.m, jaataa kaasikagaamake. At that time, I was his chief queen, the most important among a crowd of women. And I was very dear to him because of my husband's previous love [in former lives]. He saw eight Pacceka Leaders [Buddhas] going on their alms round. Delighted, he gave them very expensive alms food. Then he invited them [for a meal]. He had a jewel pavilion built and had a metal worker make golden bowl[s] that were indeed very pleasing. He brought them all together, and favourably disposed, gave them a gift with his own hand. They sat on golden seats. At that time, I gave that gift together with the king of Kaasi. Then I was born in Baaraa.nasii in the village of Kaasika. "Ku.tumbikakule phiite, sukhito so sabhaatuko; je.t.thassa bhaatuno jaayaa, ahosi.m supatibbataa. "Paccekabuddha.m disvaana, kaniyassa mama bhattuno; bhaaganna.m tassa datvaana, aagate tamhi paavadi.m. "Naabhinandittha so daana.m, tato tassa adaasaha.m; ukhaa aaniya ta.m anna.m, puno tasseva so ]adaa. "Tadanna.m cha.d.dayitvaana, du.t.thaa buddhassaha.m tadaa; patta.m kalalapu.n.na.m ta.m, adaasi.m tassa taadino. "Daane ca gaha.ne ceva, apace padusepi ca; samacittamukha.m disvaa, tadaaha.m sa.mviji.m bhusa.m. He was born with his brother in a prosperous, happy family, and I was the very devoted wife of the elder brother. I saw a Pacceka Buddha and gave him my younger brother's portion of food. After I gave it, returned, and I told him. He did not approve of that gift. Then I brought the cooking pot and gave him the food and he gave it to him again. I threw that food away, and being evil, I then gave the Buddha a bowl full of mud, to him, the Unique One. And he took the gift, both the pure and the impure. Seeing his calm mind and face then, I was exceedingly stirred. === to be continued, connie #69033 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 6:59 am Subject: Request for help with Pali pronunciation jonoabb Hi All I have received the following message from lurking member Tom W: **************************** We have a little study group here in New Hampshire and the members frequently refer to your Glossary of Pali Terms. One challenge is the pronunciation for farangs*. So I am looking for a volunteer to record the most common words. I will edit the recording and link them to the document. http://www.westheimers.net/dsg/Pali%20Terms.htm What do you think? Is this something that you might be interested in doing? I would do the audio editing and linking, so all one would need to do is read the words into a digital recorder or a computer. regards Tom **************************** * 'Farangs' = Thai vernacular for 'foreigners' (esp. westerners) Would anyone like to volunteer to record the Pali terms for Tom? I don't feel confident about this myself. I believe there are Pali speech/pronunciation files available on the internet. Does anyone know if these would be of any help to Tom's group? Jon #69034 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 8:07 am Subject: Re: New Group nichiconn Hi, Howard, I hope the family is all doing well. C: Maybe I'm eroto-phobic. As for the Death Train, if we die when we're all wrapped up in the pleasure of sensual indulgence, I think the texts say we can expect one of two destinations: either the animal or hell realms. ====================== H: Lots of humans heading for warrens or for hell, Connie! ;-) ==== C: Yes. Fairly safe bet any non-ariyan is on the road... not necessarily a straight-shot, but sooner or later. ==== H: Ya know, the human realm is said to be the most auspicious for progress on the path, but without sex, there would be no humans. (Not too many virgin births reported these days!) ==== C: ;) but ew, careful! you could be misread as advocating sexual activity only for it's rebirth linking function (which might offend some ppl); or even that anyone with a hint of right view Should have kids, the more the merrier! I'm just saying that there's not likely to be a lot of right view involved in the mess... in the long haul, IMO, it's not the type of bodily conduct that is to be cultivated (MN 114); of course, we start where we are & simply saying No without any understanding doesn't lead in the right direction, either. ========= H: You might note, also, that sexual relations are not proscribed for laypersons. (No pun here, Connie! ;-) ==== C: ;) Which is not to say they're prescribed, either. (As an aside, is meditation prescribed for laity & if so, what type(s)? ;)) Best wishes, connie #69035 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 8:34 am Subject: Re: Request for help with Pali pronunciation dhammanando_... Hi Jon, > I believe there are Pali speech/pronunciation files available on the > internet. Does anyone know if these would be of any help to Tom's > group? There are two online resources that may help: Wav files showing the pronunciation of the Pali vowels and consonants: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/pali/pali-alpha2.htm Wav files showing the pronunciation of a selection of words (a few of which are also on Tom's list): http://www.aimwell.org/Help/Pali/pali.html In both cases the pronunciation is modern Sinhala-style. Best wishes, Dhammanando #69036 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 4:04 am Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 TGrand458@... Hi Nina In a message dated 3/1/2007 3:36:34 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: There is nothing left of that lute. Seeing falls away, and I do not see a gradual change of seeing. Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. There is no time for a gradual change. -------- TG: I fail to see how the Sutta on the lute backs this up one iota. There are various suttas where the Buddha speaks about gradual change... A ship being slow withered away due to weathering. A mountain slowing declining in height generating after generation, the Adze handle gradually wearing away over the course of time, a mountain crag being worn away by a kasi cloth over periods of time measured in terms of aeons (different than the first mountain analogy.) I can't think of one sutta that backs up the "arising and immediately ceasing" outlook. So far, your two Sutta examples don't in any way, yet you comment (indirectly) as if they do ... which is interesting. TG: I personally think the above account of impermanence -- rupas being replaced by new rupas, etc. -- is just flat wrong and not useful in applying insight. Also, it lacks a conditional component which I think is counterproductive to insight. ------ N: Eyesense falls away and is replaced, otherwise you would not be seeing now. So long as kamma produces eyesense in your life there are conditions for seeing. You do not create your own seeing, you do not own it. TG: Kamma is not a "something" that produces eye sense either. It is conditions that generate what arises and it is conditions that disintegrate the same. Kamma is one of many conditions necessary for eye sense. Eye sense varies IN ACCORDANCE to conditions. I do not consider it to be "popping on and off." The three sentences in your statement above are unrelated so its hard to figure out what you're getting at. At any rate, the last sentence is hardly something that someone would need to be trying to convince me of. Concitions are being taught all the time, both for namas and for rupas. Also, when we realize that a reality that falls away falls away completely, helps us to have less conceit, clinging to my important personality. TG: I think it would be better to get rid of thinking of phenomena as "realities" or "dhammas" and instead directly realize that all conditions, experienced and otherwise, are empty of self or anything of "their" own. They are resultants and echoes of "other" empty resultants/echoes. They are hollow of essence, they are insubstantial, they are like phantoms, they are like death, they are affliction. Even when we understand this in theory, it helps us to think in the correct way. This can condition direct understanding. We have to begin somewhere and the right beginning, correct intellectual understanding is what supports the development of insight later on. Gradually so! Don't you think so? TG: Gradually? Why would "understanding" be gradual from your point of view? Would it not arise and then immediately cease??? At any rate, yes, correct intellectual understanding is crucial. Now as to what that "correct understanding" is ... that is the matter we disagree on to some significant extent. :-) But, that's what makes it interesting to discuss with you and others. Nina. TG #69037 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 11:40 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 1, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the above quoted sutta that Sĺriputta explained to the monks about the internal liquid element (element of water): .... Whatever is liquid, fluid, is internal, referable to an individual or derived therefrom, that is to say: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, serum, saliva, mucus, synovial fluid, urine or whatever other thing is liquid, fluid, is internal.... When we shed tears or swallow saliva we can be reminded that what we take for the fluid of “my body” are only elements devoid of self. Sĺriputta reminded the monks that the external liquid element can become agitated and can bring destruction to villages, towns, districts and regions, or that the water of the oceans may go down and disappear. It is liable to change and it is impermanent. Both the internal and the external liquid element are impermanent and not self. As to the Element of Fire, heat or temperature (in Pĺli: tejo dhĺtu), the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 93) gives the following definition of it [6] : ...The fire element has the characteristic of heat. Its function is to mature (maintain). It is manifested as a continued supply of softness [7] . The element of heat or temperature can be experienced through the bodysense and it appears as heat or cold. Cold is a lesser degree of heat. The element of heat accompanies all kinds of materiality that arises, rúpas of the body and materiality outside. It maintains or matures them. The element of heat is one of the four factors that produce rúpas of the body. At the first moment of life kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and also rúpa. After that temperature also starts to produce rúpas of the body [8] . Rúpas which are materiality outside such as those of a plant or a rock are produced solely by temperature. We read in the above quoted sutta that Sĺriputta explained to the monks about the internal element of heat: ... Whatever is heat, warmth, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as by whatever one is vitalized, by whatever one is consumed, by whatever one is burnt up, and by whatever one has munched, drunk, eaten and tasted that is properly transmuted (in digestion), or whatever other thing is heat, warmth, is internal.... ------- footnotes: 6. See also Dhammasangaůi § 648 and Atthasĺliní II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 332. 7. The Atthasĺliní (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 332) states that it has “the gift of softening (co-existent realities) as manifestation”. 8. This will be explained later on. ******** Nina. #69038 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 11:42 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana, 9, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Letter about Vipassanĺ 9 the Hague, July 29, 1991 Do we really want to be aware of attachment, lobha, when it appears? We may know that whatever reality appears can be object of awareness, but how is the application of this knowledge? We dislike our defilements and we would rather be free from them, but we forget that the only way to eventually eliminate them is to be aware of them so that they are known as they are. We read in "As it was said" (Khuddaka Nikĺya, Itivuttaka, The Ones, Ch I, par. 9) that the Buddha said: "Monks, the man who does not understand and comprehend lust, who has not detached his mind therefrom, who has not abandoned lust, can make no growth in extinguishing dukkha. But, monks, he who does understand and comprehend lust, who has detached his mind therefrom, who has abandoned lust, can make growth in extinguishing dukkha." This is the meaning of what the Exalted One said. Herein this meaning is thus spoken. By whatsoever lust inflamed Beings to the ill-bourn go, That lust, completely knowing it, Those who have insight do reject. Rejecting it, no more again They come unto this world at all. This meaning also was spoken by the Exalted One; so I have heard. The same is said about ill-will, delusion, wrath, and spite. One may believe that defilements can be abandoned without thoroughly knowing them, but this is impossible. Is there not a tendency to flee from one's defilements instead of facing them with courage and sincerity? So long as there is ignorance our defilements are hidden, they are covered up. When we listen to the Dhamma and consider it, and when we begin to be aware we come to know more and more the defilements which were hidden to us before. We come to know our true accumulations. As we read in the sutta, they can only be eliminated by knowing them with insight. So long as they are taken for self they can never be eradicated. ****** Nina. #69039 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 12:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Who knows anatta? /was Re: daana corner egberdina Hi KenH, On 01/03/07, ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Herman, > > H: > A well-documented phenomenon amongst Western educated classes is > a > decline in birth rates. It may not be all down to having acquired an > understanding of the evolved / conditioned nature of the world, but > certainly there is an increasing realisation amongst educated folks > that by wilfully abstaining from creating new life, there is the > abstaining from creating new suffering and new evil. > ---------------------- > > Creating? Are you suggesting they have control over other people's > vipaka? BTW, I am one of those `no children by choice' types, so > thanks for the compliment. > Before a man and a woman have a baby there is no other people. Anyway, you will always have my admiration for the choice you have made, and the control you exercise in maintain ing that intention. > ----------------------- > H: > As for attaining enlightenment, and permanently destroying a > capacity for evil, where does that happen? > ------------------------ > > It's in the teaching of Buddha Gotama. > Is any of it rubbing off, anywhere? In a way that makes it different and better and truer to the teachings of Jesus Christ or Ron L. Hubbard? > ------------------------ > <. . .> > H: > These discussions have the same > helpful effect on me, except I don't think in terms of right > understanding. My methodology is more a negative one, I find out what > is wrong understanding, what cannot be. I do not presuppose there to > be an absolute right understanding of the way things are. But there > are many ways that things are not, and the discussions here certainly > help bring that to light. > ------------------------- > > You are saying there can be wrong understanding, but not right > understanding. That's a strange logic. > > --------------- It is the logic of the scientific method. The scientific method does not arrive at a body of absolute facts. One simply cannot know in a strong sense the outcome of any experiement before it has been conducted. Surely you acknowledge that in your own life you make hypotheses all day long about what is possible, and then proceed to test them? Do you know beforehand which wave is going to dump you? > <. . .> > H: > You still have not told me how illusion is distinguished from > reality, and how that could occur in the framework of a present > moment only. > ---------------- > > Actually I *have* told you – many times - and so have other DSG > members. This negative methodology of yours is not working! I think > you should try learning the Dhamma, and *then* decide what you think > of it. > If you or other DSG members have told me, then it can't have registered as being coherent. In the present moment there are only paramattha dhammas. That's what I've been told. How on earth could any of those be illusory, Ken? Yet you maintain the reality of illusion, and it all must be coming from those paramattha dhammas, because that's all there is, according to you. > <. . .> > H: > Seriously, you wouldn't dispute that > your interpretations of the Theravadan canon are on the fringes of the > mainstream, would you? > ------------ > > No, I wouldn't dispute that at all. K Sujin has pointed out that the > Pali texts – including the ancient commentaries – are teaching > something quite different from the Buddhism most people know today. > She is right; there can be no doubt about it! > There can be no doubt about what is experienced. Blue was blue, anger was anger, wet was wet. But doubt is the means whereby we come to know things by reason. You do not know whether the next wave is going to dump you or not, and that means that there is a degree of doubt. And if you're game, then you go and test your belief/doubt. If the Buddhism of K Sujin is beyond doubt, then it is worthless in your life, because it cannot be tested and made true in your life. Kind Regards Herman #69040 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 1:40 pm Subject: Precepts and Control egberdina Hi All, We are all familiar with the following, or something similar to it. I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from ... 1. ...harming living beings. 2. ...taking things not freely given. 3. ...sexual misconduct. 4. ...false speech. 5. ...intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness. 6. ...taking untimely meals. 7. ...dancing, singing, music and watching grotesque mime. 8. ...use of garlands, perfumes and personal adornment. 9. ...use of high seats. 10. ...accepting gold or silver. It will be obvious that the precepts are expressed negatively, they are in the form of undertakings to NOT do certain things. One could easily rephrase the above into positive statements, into things that one is going to do e.g I will be nice to all beings, I will eat every day at 11:53 am. But that is not how they are formulated. I think that this is not co-incidental, but quite noteworthy. The reason for these facts, IMO, is that CONTROL is a negative function that is mindfully exercisable over already initiated impulses, and CONTROL is a possibility in all mindful individuals. There is the option for all mindful individuals to NOT convert any impulse into action. If it were not so, the precepts would be a useless piece of rhetoric. On the other hand, the precepts are not written positively because no particular consciousness can be made to arise. Having undertaken to be nice to all beings at 8 am, that does not result in nice consciousnesses arising at 5 pm, as we all know. But with the spontaneous arising of an intention to be nice, the option exists to convert that to action, or do nothing. The Buddhist path is a negative path, it leads to cessation. The Buddhist path is possible because it is possible to mindfully NOT do. Kind Regards Herman #69041 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 4:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (08) hantun1 Dear Nina and others, My computer broke down last two days. It is now at servicing center. I will continue my posts as soon as I get it back. Respectfully, Han #69042 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas, Ch 1, no 4. TGrand458@... Hi Nina In a message dated 3/1/2007 12:42:28 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Rúpas which are materiality outside such as those of a plant or a rock are produced solely by temperature. TG: I seem to recall in either the Visuddhimagga or Manual of Abhidhamma that plants are mentioned as produced by temperature. Are non-living forms, such as rocks, included as well? I don't remember that. I'm just interested for accuracy sake. The entire idea though, of being solely produced by temperature, is bordering on the ludicrous. TG #69043 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 5:30 pm Subject: Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Hi, Howard, > I hope the family is all doing well. > > C: Maybe I'm eroto-phobic. As for the Death Train, if we die when we're > all wrapped up in the pleasure of sensual indulgence, I think the texts > say we can expect one of two destinations: either the animal or hell > realms. > ====================== > H: Lots of humans heading for warrens or for hell, Connie! ;-) > ==== > C: Yes. Fairly safe bet any non-ariyan is on the road... not > necessarily a straight-shot, but sooner or later. > ==== > H: Ya know, the human realm is said to be the most auspicious for > progress on the path, but without sex, there would be no humans. (Not too > many virgin births reported these days!) > ==== > C: ;) but ew, careful! you could be misread as advocating sexual > activity only for it's rebirth linking function (which might offend some > ppl); or even that anyone with a hint of right view Should have kids, the > more the merrier! > I'm just saying that there's not likely to be a lot of right view involved > in the mess... in the long haul, IMO, it's not the type of bodily conduct > that is to be cultivated (MN 114); of course, we start where we are & > simply saying No without any understanding doesn't lead in the right > direction, either. > ========= > H: You might note, also, that sexual relations are not proscribed for > laypersons. (No pun here, Connie! ;-) > ==== > C: ;) Which is not to say they're prescribed, either. As I was writing to Herman, aversion toward sexuality is not the proper way to follow the Buddha's teaching. Those who have knowledge of the Four Noble Truths see sexuality as providing very little pleasure, while those who do not see sexuality as very pleasurable. In other words, those who have wisdom have no interest in sexuality- it doesn't hold any pleasure for them. However, they don't have an aversion to sexuality- thinking that sexuality is dirty or wrong. As a householder, it isn't beneficial, natural, or necessary to reject one's sexuality. Additionally, sexuality doesn't send one to the hell or animal realms (I'm not sure where you get that idea). Those with very strong libidos can go to the diva realms when they die; where one ends up is dependent on morality not sense pleasure. In Buddhism, enjoying a chocolate cake and enjoying sex are really no different- they are both sense pleasures. But stealing a chocolate cake to enjoy or committing adultery (stealing someone else's companion) to enjoy are wrong and condemned by the Buddha. This is a confusing matter because Buddhist monks and nuns are required to be celibate, while householders are not. The question may arise: If householders can follow the Buddha's path and still have sex, why can't Buddhist monks and nuns? Actually, that very issue did arise in the beginning of the Sangha. One monk declared that even though the Buddha said monks shouldn't have sex, there is really nothing wrong with monks having sex. Here is what the commentary has to say about this incident: "Things called "obstructions" (antaraayikaa dhammaa). Comy gives here a list of ideas and actions that obstruct either heavenly rebirth or final deliverance or both. Ari.t.tha, so says Comy being a learned exponent of the Teaching, was quite familiar with most of these "obstructions"; but, being unfamiliar with the Code of Discipline (Vinaya), he conceived the view that sex indulgence was not necessarily an obstruction for a monk. Ari.t.tha is said to have used a rather sophistic argument, saying, "If some of the five sense enjoyments are permissible even for lay adherents who are stream- enterers (sotaapanna), etc., why is an exception made as to the visible shape, voice, touch, etc., of women?" According to Comy, Ari.t.tha goes so far as to charge the Buddha with exaggerating the importance of the first grave offence (paaraajikaa) for a monk (i.e., sexual intercourse), saying that the emphasis given to it is like the effort of one who tries to chain the ocean." The Buddha replies to Ari.t.tha by saying: "Of whom do you know, foolish man, that I have taught to him the teaching in that manner? Did I not, foolish man, speak in many ways of those obstructive things that they are obstructions indeed, and that they necessarily obstruct him who pursues them? Sense desires, so I have said, bring little enjoyment, and much suffering and disappointment. The perils in them are greater. Sense desires are like bare bones, have I said; they are like a lump of flesh... they are like a snake's head, have I said. They bring much suffering and disappointment. The perils in them are greater. But you, O foolish man, have misrepresented us by what you personally have wrongly grasped. You have undermined your own (future) and have created much demerit. This, foolish man, will bring you much harm and suffering for a long time."3 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel048.html#n -3 Monks and nuns have a higher standard of behaviour so they cannot indulge in sexual behaviour. And this isn't necessarily easy for them to do this either so there are many meditations to try to subdue sexual desire (which can be dangerous in themselves). If a monk or nun can't subdue this sexual desire, he/she can disrobe and become a householder- and there is no shame in that and former monk/nun isn't bound for hell or animal realms. (As an aside, is > meditation prescribed for laity & if so, what type(s)? ;)) James: Yes. Recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. Such meditation is a necessary pre-requisite for stream-entry as it builds Right View. > Best wishes, > connie > Metta, James #69044 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 6:46 pm Subject: Re: New Group nichiconn Hi James, I'll restate my 'die indulging, go to a hell or animal realm' thing. The realm of rebirth depends on the last javana citta before the cuti citta. Rebirth in the human realm (with the turtle/yoke simile for how precious it is) depends on that being kusala. I don't think it's likely to be a moment of dana, sila or bhavana if we die in the middle of being intent on licking up chocolate frosting or what have you. I'd say that's part of the 'greater perils' in pursuing sensual desires, including but not at all limited to sexual appetites. peace, connie #69045 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 7:29 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (37) nichiconn Dear Friends, Bhaddaa of the Kaapilaas, part three of four: "Puno patta.m gahetvaana, sodhayitvaa sugandhinaa, pasannacittaa puuretvaa, saghata.m sakkara.m ada.m. "Yattha yatthuupapajjaami, suruupaa homi daanato; buddhassa apakaarena, duggandhaa vadanena ca. "Puna kassapaviirassa, nidhaayantamhi cetiye; sova.n.na.m i.t.thaka.m vara.m, adaasi.m muditaa aha.m. "Catujjaatena gandhena, nicayitvaa tami.t.thaka.m; muttaa duggandhadosamhaa, sabba"ngasusamaagataa. "Satta paatisahassaani, rataneheva sattahi; kaaretvaa ghatapuuraani, va.t.tiini ca sahassaso. Then I took the bowl again, purified it with sweet-smelling oil, and with my mind well disposed [towards him], I filled it with clarified butter and gave him honour. Wherever I was reborn, I was beautiful as a result of that gift, but because of the injury to the Buddha, I have an evil-smelling mouth. Again, when a shrine was being founded for the Hero Kassapa, I gave an excellent golden tile, feeling appreciative joy. I heaped up the four kinds of perfume with that tile, and I was freed from the defect of the bad smell, having perfectly balanced limbs. I had seven thousand bowls made with the seven jewels and filled [them] with clarified butter and thousands of wicks. "Pakkhipitvaa padiipetvaa, .thapayi.m sattapantiyo; puujanattha.m lokanaathassa, vippasannena cetasaa. "Tadaapi tamhi pu~n~namhi, bhaaginiiyi visesato; puna kaasiisu sa~njaato, sumittaa iti vissuto. "Tassaaha.m bhariyaa aasi.m, sukhitaa sajjitaa piyaa; tadaa paccekamunino, adaasi.m ghanave.thana.m. "Tassaapi bhaaginii aasi.m, moditvaa daanamuttama.m; punaapi kaasira.t.thamhi, jaato koliyajaatiyaa. "Tadaa koliyaputtaana.m, satehi saha pa~ncahi; pa~nca paccekabuddhaana.m, sataani samupa.t.thahi. With a purified mind, I offered them, lit them, and place them in seven rows to pay homage to the Protector of the World. At that time, I especially shared in that meritorious deed. Again, he [my former husband] was born among the citizens of Kaasi, renowned by the name Sumitta. I was his wife, happy , joyous and beloved. At that time, he gave a thick shawl to a Pacceka Sage [Buddha]. I shared in that, too, rejoicing in the excellent gift. And again, he was born in the kingdom of Kaasi of Koliyaa descent. At that time, he and five hundred members of the Koliyaa clan served five hundred Pacceka Buddhas. "Temaasa.m tappayitvaana, adaasi ca ticiivare; jaayaa tassa tadaa aasi.m, pu~n~nakammapathaanugaa. "Tato cuto ahu raajaa, nando naama mahaayaso; tassaapi mahesii aasi.m, sabbakaamasamiddhinii. "Tadaa raajaa bhavitvaana, brahmadatto mahiipati; padumavatiiputtaana.m, paccekamunina.m tadaa. "Sataani pa~ncanuunaani, yaavajiiva.m upa.t.thahi.m; raajuyyaane nivaasetvaa, nibbutaani ca puujayi.m. "Cetiyaani ca kaaretvaa, pabbajitvaa ubho maya.m; bhaavetvaa appama~n~naayo, brahmaloka.m agamhase. He delighted them for three months and gave them sets of the three robes. I was his wife at that time, following the path of meritorious actions. Then, passing away from there, he became King Nanda of great fame. I was his chief queen also, surrounded by all sensual pleasures. At that time, he was King Brahmadatta,the lord of the earth. At that time, there were exactly five hundred Pacceka Sages [Buddhas], the sones of Padumavatii, whom he served throughout his life. He had them dwell in the royal garden, and I honoured those who were quenched. And we both built shrines, went forth, developed the [four] illimitables, and went to the Brahmaa realm. "Tato cuto mahaatitthe, sujaato pipphalaayano; maataa sumanadeviiti, kosigotto dijo pitaa. "Aha.m madde janapade, saakalaaya puruttame; kappilassa dijassaasi.m, dhiitaa maataa suciimati. "Gharaka~ncanabimbena, nimminitvaana ma.m pitaa; adaa kassapadhiirassa, kaamehi vajjitassama.m. "Kadaaci so kaaru.niko, gantvaa kammantapekkhako; kaakaadikehi khajjante, paa.ne disvaana sa.mviji. "Gharevaaha.m tile jaate, disvaanaatapataapane; kimii kaakehi khajjante, sa.mvegamalabhi.m tadaa. Then passing away there, he was well born in Mahaatittha as Pipphalaayana. He mother was Sumanadeviii, and his father was the brahman Kosigotta. In the magnificent town of Saakalaa in the district of Madda, I was [born as] the daughter of the brahman Kapila, and my mother was Suciimatii. He has a massive golden image of me made, and my father gave me to Kassapa-Dhiira, who was devoid of sensual pleasures. On day, that compassionate one went out looking at work [being done], and he was stirred when he saw living creatures being eaten by crows, etc. And [staying] at home then, I saw how sesame seeds growing there were scorched by the heat of the sunand were being eaten by worms and crows, and I becaue profoundly stirred. "Tadaa so pabbajii dhiiro, aha.m tamanupabbaji.m; pa~nca vassaani nivasi.m, paribbaajavate aha.m. "Yadaa pabbajitaa aasi, gotamii jinaposikaa; tadaaha.m tamupagantvaa, buddhena anusaasitaa. "Na cireneva kaalena, arahattamapaapu.ni.m; aho kalyaa.namittatta.m, kassapassa siriimato. "Suto buddhassa daayaado, kassapo susamaahito; pubbenivaasa.m yo vedi, saggaapaaya~nca passati. "Atho jaatikkhaya.m patto, abhi~n~naavosito muni; etaahi tiihi vijjaahi, tevijjo hoti braahma.no. Then that wise one went forth, and I followed him in going forth. For five years I lived by the vow of a wanderer. Then Gotamii, the one who nourished the Conqueror, became one who went forth. Then I went up to her, being urged on by the Buddha. I attained Arahatship in a very short time. O how glorious, the state of being the good friend of Kassapa! Kassapa, the son, the heir of the Buddha, well concentrated, who knows that he has lived before, and who sees heaven and hell, and who has attained the destruction of rebirths, is a sage perfected in direct knowledge. Because of these three knowledges, he is a brahman with triple knowledge. {RD notes: Mahaa-Kassapa became the leader of the Buddhist Order when the Buddha had passed away. According to the Apadaana, Kassapa was identical with Pippali, her husband, and had been her husband in three former lives. Kassapa was either the family name or the personal name; Pippali either the personal or the local name. See Dialogues, i. 193. His story is fully told in the Commentary on the Psalms of the Brothers, and in that on Ang. Nik., i. 23.} === to be continued, connie #69046 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 7:53 pm Subject: Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Hi James, > I'll restate my 'die indulging, go to a hell or animal realm' thing. The > realm of rebirth depends on the last javana citta before the cuti citta. Well, this is an entirely different subject. I didn't know that you were addressing the last moment of consciousness. Unfortunately, I am not very knowledgeable in this regard- this is more something that Nina could address. However, I would imagine that there are degrees of kusala of that last moment of consciousness just as there are different planes of existence. But I do ask: Is this something that we need to be extremely concerned about or have any control over? Metta, James #69047 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 8:09 pm Subject: Re: New Group philofillet Hi Herman and all >but is sexual activity anything anyone would dream of doing > if one wasn't driven to it? You put that well. "Bumping uglies" is a phrase that I liked in a Patsy Cline autobiography flick. All sense pleasures are sources of sffering, that is Dhamma 101. We still enjoy them, and will, but there is a certain sobering, a certain awareness that we are just deepening our clinging to the khandas. This awareness needn't really screw up one's sexuality or any other form of pleasant sensory experiencing. But surely there's a sobering. For example, I don't wear the latex batman suit anymore. I miss it, at times, but wise reflection took it out of my life. A big challenge in wholesome married (or otherwsie monogamous) life is to remain faithful *mentally* to one's spouse. You've seen the studies that report that men spend something like 80% of their mental down time fantasizing about sex. Overcoming that habit is an interesting practice. At first it's very difficult, but then becomes easier and easier, at least in my case. Not thinking about baseball is *much* more difficult for me now. Metta, Phil #69048 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 8:15 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing philofillet Hi Sukin (and Ken) I just want to thank you for posting your comments. You know, I can't afford to get into an ongoing discussion on these points now. I hope I will someday because I have a lot of respect for the way you think things through. Ken, same goes for you. There was a post I didn't get back to and more to come that I won't get back to. But please keep posting responses to my posts, and forgive me for not responding. (Or reading them, to tell the truth! That just triggers my need to talk back. Someday I'll have time, I hope!) Metta, Phil #69049 From: "kanchaa" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 9:09 pm Subject: Re: Where does Anger start from? kanchuu2003 Dear All, Thanks for your help understanding more about Anger.. I am expecting more details about anger later from Phil, though whenever he is free.. Actually there are situations at times when things don't work accordingly, to the discipline… It is difficult and almost impossible to handle the situation when you are bound to indulge into the things, that you are actually not responsible of, accountable of… And often repeatedly you have to face… Maybe I have to practice the situation, maybe an opportunity… But it is indeed very difficult to face so… But definitely, have been feling better than before and coping with situation more wisely.. Further posts from anyone understanding Anger would be highly appreciated.. Sincerely, nitesh #69050 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 9:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where does Anger start from? sarahprocter... Dear Nitesh, (& Phil) --- kanchaa wrote: > I am expecting more details about anger later from Phil, though > whenever he is free.. .... S: Ah yes and also those suttas to James, discussion with Jon, suttas on some other topic (was it dana?)......we're all waiting for those magic non-baseball obsessed free moments, Phil:-). (j/k, no need to respond!!) .... > Further posts from anyone understanding Anger would be highly > appreciated.. .... S: Nitesh, discover the joys of 'Useful Posts' in the files section of DSG. Scroll down to 'Dosa' (anger...) and you'll find headings that look like this: *Dosa1 (aversion) & Domanassa (unpleasant mental feeling); Stress, see also ‘Feelings’, 'Metta' *Dosa2 - Controllable? *Dosa3 - suttas *Dosa4 - the story, Irritated by someone? < Click on the numbers you find which will link you to past posts on the topic of Anger saved from the archives. Let us know if you find any of special assistance and re-quote if you feel inclined. (Ignore any which seem to complicated or detailed for now.) Metta, Sarah ======= #69051 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 10:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (02) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > This is taken from “Dana: The Practice of Giving” > compiled and edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi. .... S: I'd just like to add a quote for the reason for dana as being given first: .... Bodhi: >Besides appearing > as the first topic in the graduated exposition of the > Dhamma, the practice of giving also figures as the > first of the three bases of meritorious deeds > (punnakiriyavatthu), as the first of the four means of > benefiting others (sangahavatthu), and as the first of > the ten paramis or "perfections." ... S: From B.Bodhi's translation of the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka ("A Treatise on the Paaramis"): "(iv) What is their sequence? Here "sequence" means sequence of teaching. This sequence is rooted in the order in which the paaramiis are initially undertaken, which in turn is rooted in the order in which they are investigated.3 The quality which is investigated and undertaken at the beginning is taught first. Therein, giving is stated first, for giving assists (the development of) virtue and is easy to practice. Giving accompanied by virtue is abundantly fruitful and beneficial, so virtue is stated immediately after giving. Virtue accompanied by renunciation... renunciation by wisdom... wisdom by energy... energy by patience... patience by truthfulness... truthfulness by determination... determination by loving-kindness... and loving-kindness accompanied by equanimity is abundantly fruitful and beneficial; thus equanimity is stated immediately after loving-kindness. Equanimity is accompanied by compassion and compassion by equanimity. (Someone may ask:) "How can the bodhisattvas, the great compassionate ones, look upon living beings with equanimity?" Some teachers say: "Sometimes they show equanimity toward living beings when it is necessary to do so." But others say: "They do not show equanimity toward living beings (as such), but toward the offensive actions performed by beings." Another method (of explaining the sequence) may be given: (1) Giving is stated at the beginning: (a) because it is common to all beings, since even ordinary people practice giving; (b) because it is the least fruitful; and (c) because it is the easiest to practice. (2) Virtue is stated immediately after giving: (a) because virtue purifies both the donor and the recipient; (b) to show that, while giving benefits others, virtue prevents the affliction of others; (c) in order to state a factor of abstinence immediately after a factor of positive activity; and (d) in order to show the cause for the achievement of a favorable state of future existence right after the cause for the achievement of wealth. <.... and so on for the other paramis> Thus the sequence of the paaramiis should be understood as explained." .... S: More detail (including the order for the other paramis) can be found here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html ..... Metta, Sarah ======= #69052 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 1, 2007 11:32 pm Subject: Re: Where does Anger start from? buddhatrue Hi Nitesh (and Sarah at the end), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kanchaa" wrote: > > Further posts from anyone understanding Anger would be highly > appreciated.. Anger is one of the three poisons of the mind (the other two being greed and delusion). It is also called one of the evil roots as it underlies many negative emotions and thoughts. Everyone suffers from anger until they reach the higher levels of enlightenment, but there are ways of making sure that anger doesn't get too out of control: The best way to purify the mind is through metta meditation which is a form of samatha meditation. If the idea of metta meditation doesn't appeal to you, then you should begin to practice it immediately!! The Ego tries to protect itself by making metta meditation (or any meditation for that matter) seem uninteresting and pointless. The Vism. by Buddhaghosa describes the practice of metta meditation as proceeding in this manner: The six stages of mettâ bhâvanâ meditation which are most commonly found involves cultivating loving-kindness towards: 1. Yourself 2. A good friend 3. A 'neutral' person 4. A difficult person 5. All four 6. and then gradually the entire universe Personally, I have tried this method and I find it silly, awkward, and uneffective. I find it best just to follow the instructions as taught by the Buddha in the Metta Sutta: … Wishing: In gladness and in safety, May all beings be at ease. Whatever living beings there may be; Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none, The great or the mighty, medium, short or small, The seen and the unseen, Those living near and far away, Those born and to-be-born — May all beings be at ease! Let none deceive another, Or despise any being in any state. Let none through anger or ill-will Wish harm upon another. Even as a mother protects with her life Her child, her only child, So with a boundless heart Should one cherish all living beings; Radiating kindness over the entire world. Spreading upwards to the skies, And downwards to the depths; Outwards and unbounded, Freed from hatred and ill-will. Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down Free from drowsiness, One should sustain this recollection. This is said to be the sublime abiding. By not holding to fixed views, The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision, Being freed from all sense desires, Is not born again into this world. So, it is relatively simple and straightforward, simply make the mental wish "May all beings be at ease" or "May all beings be happy". Just keep repeating that to yourself to yourself and extend the wish in all directions. It may seem strange (almost like casting a magic spell…but it isn't like that), but it will very quickly lighten and focus the mind. During my meditation sessions, I like to begin by focusing on the breath and after I have focus on the breath, I practice the metta meditation. After I have extended metta in all directions, I go back to focusing on the breath and I notice that the quality of attention is greatly improved. Also, the mental peace and clarity from the sitting sessions lasts much longer throughout the day. I can even participate in DSG without completely losing my cool everytime! ;-)) Try it; you'll like it. Metta, James PS. Sarah, as I told you before, you were right to tell KS that metta cannot be generated when one is too tired. As you will see from the Metta Sutta, the Buddha said the same thing with the line "Free from drowsiness". #69053 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 12:37 am Subject: [dsg] Who knows anatta? /was Re: daana corner ken_aitch Hi Herman, ------------------- <. . .> H: > Before a man and a woman have a baby there is no other people. -------------------- At last count there were approximately seven billion other people. Unless you are thinking of Adam and Eve(?) ----------------------------- H: > Anyway, you will always have my admiration for the choice you have made, and the control you exercise in maintaining that intention. ------------------------------ Thanks, but be careful how you talk - there may be young people listening. I love being childless and have never wanted it any other way. But, if told a young couple that, I would be in all sorts of trouble with their parents. By the same token, I wouldn't want them blindly assuming childlessness was a terrible sacrifice. All too often, young people are given to believe that parenthood is their only reasonable option. When it is too late some of them secretly realize they were duped. ------------------------ <. ..> KH: > > It's in the teaching of Buddha Gotama. > H: > Is any of it rubbing off, anywhere? In a way that makes it different and better and truer to the teachings of Jesus Christ or Ron L. Hubbard? ------------------------ The Buddhism that is most widely practised today is virtually identical to all conventional) religions, so what would you expect? Of course, the Dhamma that is found in the original ancient texts is an entirely different matter. But, as you know, hardly anyone is interested in it. ------------------------------------ ------------------------------------ I'll skip the bit about scientific methods; it's not likely to get us anywhere. --------------- KH: > > Actually, I *have* told you – many times - and so have other DSG > members. This negative methodology of yours is not working! I think > you should try learning the Dhamma, and *then* decide what you think > of it. H: > If you or other DSG members have told me, then it can't have registered as being coherent. In the present moment there are only paramattha dhammas. That's what I've been told. How on earth could any of those be illusory, Ken? Yet you maintain the reality of illusion, and it all must be coming from those paramattha dhammas, because that's all there is, according to you. --------------- Now do you wish you had listened when you had the chance? :-) -------------------------- <. . .> H: > There can be no doubt about what is experienced. Blue was blue, anger was anger, wet was wet. But doubt is the means whereby we come to know things by reason. You do not know whether the next wave is going to dump you or not, and that means that there is a degree of doubt. And if you're game, then you go and test your belief/doubt. If the Buddhism of K Sujin is beyond doubt, then it is worthless in your life, because it cannot be tested and made true in your life. ---------------------------- You have made your bed, and now you must lie in it. :-) Ken H #69054 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Furthermore, Sariputta is quoted in the ancient texts at attaining > nibbana while listening to a discourse and fanning the Buddha- he > mentions nothing about attaining the eight jhanas in-between. The > sutta doesn't mention the listening to the discourse and the fanning > and Sariputta mentions nothing about what is in the sutta. > Obviously, the sutta is a fake. ..... S: Just looking at the Anupada sutta because I didn't respond further, I notice B.Bodhi gives some commentary notes which may be helpful as they link the two suttas, I think: First, a link to this sutta for others: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/111-anupad\ a-e.html From the sutta (using Nanamoli/Bodhi transl): 1."During half a month, bhikkhus, Sariputta had insight into states one by one as they occurred....." note: "Anupadadhammavipassanaa. MA [S: the commentary] explains that he developed insight into states in successive order by way of the meditative attainments and the jhaana factors, as will be described. The two-week period refered to fell from the time of Ven. Saariputta's ordination under the Buddha to his attainment of arahantship while listening to the Buddha explain the comprehension of feeling to Diighanakha (see MN 74.14)." .... [S: after detailing the various jhanas and the higher development of vipassana -insight into all states as they occurred] 2. "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Saariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom." note: "MA offers the explanation of the passage, transmitted by 'the elders of India': 'The Elder Saariputta cultivated serenity and insight in paired conjunction and realised the fruit of non-returning. Then he entered the attainment of cessation, and after emerging from it he attained arahantship.' " 3. "He emerged mindful from that attainment [S: nirodha samupatta as just referred to above]. Having done so, he recalled the past states, which had ceased and changed thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.' " note: "Since there are no mental factors in the attainment of cessation, MA says that 'these states' here must refer either to the states of material form that were occurring while he attained cessation, or to the mental factors of the preceding fourth immaterial attainment." ..... S: With regard to the Abhidhamma details we discussed following your introduction of a helpful article, it is an intricate matter. B.Bodhi also gives this note which you might find interesting: "The first five states in the list [S: in the sutta with regard to the states in the first jhana] are the jhaana factors proper of the first jhaana; the following states are additional components each performing their individual functions within the jhaana. This minute analysis of mental states into their components anticipates the methodology of the Abhidhamma, and it is thus no coincidence that the name of Saariputta is so closely linked witht the emergence of the Abhidhamma literature." ..... S: I'm not sure if any of this is particularly relevant to your 'fake' comments, but I'm adding it in case you're interested. Metta, Sarah ======= #69055 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 1:05 am Subject: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nilovg Hi TG, ----- TG: TG: I fail to see how the Sutta on the lute backs this up one iota. There are various suttas where the Buddha speaks about gradual change... A ship being slow withered away due to weathering. A mountain slowing declining in height generating after generation, the Adze handle gradually wearing away over the course of time, a mountain crag being worn away by a kasi cloth over periods of time measured in terms of aeons (different than the first mountain analogy.) -------- N: This is to show how slowly defilements are eliminated, how stubborn they are. They are similes, and another subject. --------- TG:I can't think of one sutta that backs up the "arising and immediately ceasing" outlook. So far, your two Sutta examples don't in any way, yet you comment (indirectly) as if they do ... which is interesting. ---------- N: The sound of a lute: it needs conditions, and when the conditions fall away, also the conditioned dhamma falls away. Sound cannot stay. -------- TG: I personally think the above account of impermanence -- rupas being replaced by new rupas, etc. -- is just flat wrong and not useful in applying insight. Also, it lacks a conditional component which I think is counterproductive to insight. ------ N: See may answer before: Eyesense falls away and is replaced, otherwise you would not be seeing now. So long as kamma produces eyesense in your life there are conditions for seeing. You do not create your own seeing, you do not own it. This is very helpful for insight. ------- TG: Kamma is not a "something" that produces eye sense either. It is conditions that generate what arises and it is conditions that disintegrate the same. Kamma is one of many conditions necessary for eye sense. Eye sense varies IN ACCORDANCE to conditions. I do not consider it to be "popping on and off." ------- N: Yes, this is understandable. That is because you do not see impermanence as momentary. -------- TG: I think it would be better to get rid of thinking of phenomena as "realities" or "dhammas" and instead directly realize that all conditions, experienced and otherwise, are empty of self or anything of "their" own. They are resultants and echoes of "other" empty resultants/echoes. They are hollow of essence, they are insubstantial, they are like phantoms, they are like death, they are affliction. ------- N: We speak of conditions in relation to realities. Realities are not concepts. The 24 conditions pertain to realities, except concept that can be object-condiiton for citta. The three general characteristics pertain to realities, not concepts. We may be thinking of the body that changes, but that is not the direct experience of impermanence. -------- Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group egberdina Hi Connie, By way of circambulation, I do like your posts very much, I find them very rich in association, they open up a million possibilities in every line. Having said that ...... :-) On 02/03/07, connie wrote: > Hi James, > I'll restate my 'die indulging, go to a hell or animal realm' thing. The > realm of rebirth depends on the last javana citta before the cuti citta. > Rebirth in the human realm (with the turtle/yoke simile for how precious > it is) depends on that being kusala. I don't think it's likely to be a > moment of dana, sila or bhavana if we die in the middle of being intent on > licking up chocolate frosting or what have you. I'd say that's part of the > 'greater perils' in pursuing sensual desires, including but not at all > limited to sexual appetites. > peace, > connie > In terms of citta, how is an animal or hell realm different to a human or god realm? Kind Regards Herman #69057 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group egberdina Hi James, On 01/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > And, > there shouldn't be aversion to sexuality- that isn't what the Buddha > taught! But, I am too tired to argue it anymore. Grandpa needs to go > take a nap now. ;-)) > I hope you are looking resplendent after your beauty sleep :-) I just wanted to clear something up. Rest assured, sex is very pleasing and very satisfying. And I very much enjoy eating a delicious meal. But only once I allowed myself to remain mindful during eating, and it was the most disgusting experience. Consequently, I don't pursue mindfulness during eating. I'd rather enjoy it than know what I'm doing. For the same reason I do not pursue mindfulness during courtship or beyond. Cheers, big ears Herman #69058 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 1:51 am Subject: Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. nilovg Dear Scott, thank you very much for this quote. ----------- Q: "... the sense-door ... then mind-door but then ruupa has fallen away...how can mind-door experience the ruupa? ------------ N: Just like now. Visible object is experienced through the eye-door and then it is experienced by the cittas arising in the following mind-door proces. It has only just fallen away. It is like a photocopy. --------- Kh. Sujin: "See but its there ... its gone but its there because the ruupa does not arise just once [in a door-way] - many, many, many all the time ... ----------- N: That is important: visible object impinges again and again on the eyesense, there is the eye-door process again and again, alternated with mind-door processes. ------- Sujin: Can we have precise understanding [of} which doorway right now? Mind-door or sense-door. But the development of understanding from the very beginning - one cannot understand the distinction between the two - mind-door process and sense-door process but there can be the development of the understanding of the characteristic of naama as not-me and ruupa as not me or mine. ------- N: Not just noting or noticing, but understanding them as dhamma, as a reality that is conditioned, nama or rupa. Not belonging to me, but wrong view is so strong. -------- Sujin: Because usually there is seeing and there is ignorance about it ... but pa~n~na and awareness can arise after seeing...not thinking about concept. Instead of thinking about concept, right awareness is there very naturally and there can be the development of understanding little by little. [There is] no time to think about which doorway. So...after the sense-door has fallen away and then mind-door process must have the same object - the same but not the one...it cannot be the one, but it can be the same... ------- N: It has fallen away, but it is similar. -------- Sujin: Right now - its exactly like this moment. Anything must be like this moment that pa~n~na can understand it...its like two sheets of paper...very thin paper...when you drop water - a drop of water - it goes through [to the] second one instantly. Can you stop it? Can you help it not to be like that? It has to be like that...the object has to be exactly the same as the sense-door process... --------- Q: "At that moment of the mind-door process is it true to say that the object is a concept, or a reality, or something that is neither a concept or a reality? -------- N: When it is the mind-door process that immediately follows a sense- door process, the object is rupa that has just fallen away. This is a paramattha dhamma. Also feeling or any other nama can be the object. How otherwise could right understanding of them be developed? Right understanding is developed of paramattha dhammas. When there is no awareness there can be thinking of concepts. --------- Kh. Sujin: "... Whenever paramattha dhamma is not the object it must be concept which is the object ... but when there is no concept just the characterisic of reality appears succeeded because there is not just one process of reality that appears and then is completely gone ... exactly the same object like this but there is nobody only the dhaatu- that dhaatu experiences object like this no suppression between the sense-door and the mind door by thinking at all it just experiences... when we talk about concept, if there is the characteristic [that] succeeds just suddenly instantly and it is the characteristic of paramattha dhamma its said that it is paramattha dhamma and it is also present too because its not the thought about paramattha dhamma but its the moment when paramattha dhamma succeeds the appearance from sense-door to mind-door ------ N: Here she speaks about insight. It is not the thought about paramattha dhamma, it appears and is directly experienced by pa~n~naa. This is very important. Is there not mostly thinking about paramattha dhammas? -------- Sujin: and now ... the ruupa which has arisen has fallen away so it must be the new one all the time but we cannot know which one is the object of awareness but the characteristic of it appears so it can be this one or that one or what ones?...not only one ruupa appears now..." ------- N: I remember this, it is important. We should not bother which rupa, but be aware of its characteristic when it appears. Rupa impinges again and again, but we do not need to think about this. I am thinking now of the nimitta of condiitoned paramattha dhammas. They arise and fall away so fast and we experience only the nimitta. But all the same: there can be awareness of the characteristics that appear, even though we only experience nimittas. ---------- Scott: How did you understand the distinction that was made between the experience of ruupa at the sense-door, and the subsequent experience of the characteristic of that ruupa (but not that ruupa) at the mind-door? ------- N: See above. Once Kh Sujin said: it is exactly the same. There is just awareness of characteristics. I read a passage about the sense-doors in Dispeller II, p. 151, because the Visuddhimagga Tiika refers to it. In the sensedoor process, during the javanacittas there is not the committing of any kamma, no 'insight that has the characteristics as object>. Thus, Insight itself arises in a mind-door process, but as we know there can be pa~n~naa in a sense-door process that understands the rupa that is the object. The processes alternate and pa~n~naa cannot be stopped when it is the turn of a sense-door process which is followed again by a mind-door process. As Kh Sujin said: < there is nobody only the dhaatu- that dhaatu experiences object like this no suppression between the sense-door and the mind door by thinking at all it just experiences> ---------- S:I like the below: N: "... hard is hard, no matter there is no sati or there is sati. When there is awareness hardness is still hardness, but then hardness can be known as a reality, and the experience can be known as another type of reality." In other words hardness - ruupa - exists whether it becomes an object of sati or not. -------- N: Realities are the same, just naturally arising, but when pa~n~naa arises it understands them. Pa~n~naa does not change the realities. Dosa may arise. When pa~n~naa arises (in a later process) it understands dosa, but it does not change the dosa. This shows that the development of satipatthaana is very natural. Life goes on as usual, but pa~n~naa can develop. Nina. #69059 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. egberdina Hi Nina, On 02/03/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Scott, > N: Realities are the same, Then why do you always go back to the one specific house in Den Haag, to the one specific husband called Lodewijk, go for your dhamma from one specific K Sujin in Thailand? Clearly, not all realities are the same for you. I see nothing that is kusala about saying that you believe what you do not do. Kind Regards Herman #69060 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 2:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: I > notice B.Bodhi gives some commentary notes which may be helpful as they > link the two suttas, I think: The two-week > period refered to fell from the time of Ven. Saariputta's ordination under > the Buddha to his attainment of arahantship while listening to the Buddha > explain the comprehension of feeling to Diighanakha (see MN 74.14)." > .... > 2. "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of > neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Saariputta entered upon and abided > in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed > by his seeing with wisdom." > > note: "MA offers the explanation of the passage, transmitted by 'the > elders of India': 'The Elder Saariputta cultivated serenity and insight in > paired conjunction and realised the fruit of non-returning. Then he > entered the attainment of cessation, and after emerging from it he > attained arahantship.' " > > 3. "He emerged mindful from that attainment [S: nirodha samupatta as just > referred to above]. Having done so, he recalled the past states, which had > ceased and changed thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been, come > into being; having been, they vanish.' " > > note: "Since there are no mental factors in the attainment of cessation, > MA says that 'these states' here must refer either to the states of > material form that were occurring while he attained cessation, or to the > mental factors of the preceding fourth immaterial attainment." James: Thanks for all of the commentary details, but they still don't clear up the matter for me. You say that they link two suttas, but I don't see a link between two suttas. Additionally, one commentary states that Sariputta attained arahantship while listening to the Buddha and the other states that he attained arahatship while reviewing material states after emerging from the cessation of perception and feeling. These two are not compatible to my way of thinking- but maybe they are, somehow, in someway. > ..... > S: With regard to the Abhidhamma details we discussed following your > introduction of a helpful article, it is an intricate matter. > > B.Bodhi also gives this note which you might find interesting: > > "The first five states in the list [S: in the sutta with regard to the > states in the first jhana] are the jhaana factors proper of the first > jhaana; the following states are additional components each performing > their individual functions within the jhaana. This minute analysis of > mental states into their components anticipates the methodology of the > Abhidhamma, and it is thus no coincidence that the name of Saariputta is > so closely linked witht the emergence of the Abhidhamma literature." > ..... > S: I'm not sure if any of this is particularly relevant to your 'fake' > comments, but I'm adding it in case you're interested. James: Thanks, that is interesting. I think that B. Bodhi is being a little diplomatic in the way he describes the situation. What do you think of this note? ;-)) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > Metta, James #69061 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 3:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Sorry to get back to your message (#68898) while you're away. Have a good trip btw. --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > The notion of ear sense as a rupa is very, very close to a > conventional one, it seems to me. It seems to be described as a very > tiny bit of matter > (in the physicist's or chemist's sense) that is located in the interior > of the > very-conventional ear organ. (Actually, it's not supposed to be a single > bit > of matter, but a series of arising and ceasing bits, perhaps > molecular-sized or > far smaller-sized particles of material substance, to be fair.) .... S: I just think of ear-sense as being the rupa which arises and falls away all the time and which is necessary in order for hearing to make contact with sound anytime. There has to be the 'coming together' of these different ayatanas. ..... > > 3. When awareness arises, it can only ever be aware of one object, i.e > one > > characteristic, at a time. > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Interesting that here you refer to an object as a characteristic. > Now, > *that* usage appeals to me, as I identify dhammas with characteristics, > not > distinguishing between a dhamma and "it's" characteristic. I also note > that the > usage of "characteristic", e,g, the characteristic of (a specific) > hardness > or heat, or sound or sight, etc, rather pleasantly blurs the distinction > > between "external" and "internal". .... S: When there is awareness of the characteristic of hardness, there's no iea of 'external' or 'internal'. Just the characteristic of hardness which appears, regardless of whether we're touching the computer or our body. .... It doesn't obliterate it, but it does > blur it. It > tends to lessen the disparity between Buddhist > phenomenalism/experientialism > and Buddhist "objectivism". .... S: Must be right then, lol! ... > BTW, I raised an issue in a recent post that no one has responded > to. > It is the matter of whether different "people" are ever aware of the > literally > same rupa. I don't mean that they have the identically same experience - > of > course they cannot, but whether thay ever make contact with the very > same rupa. > If not, if they never do, then there is a separate realm of rupas for > each > namarupic flow, and the distinction between the radical phenomenalist > position > and the objectivist position loses its significance. .... S: Nina already replied. It depends on kamma what rupa is experienced now and again at such a moment, there's no idea of it being the same or different from any other rupa experienced. But, we know, it's never the same visible object from one split-second to the next. .... > > 4. So, in the sense-door process in which seeing saw visible object, > > awareness can arise (with the javana cittas) and be aware of that same > > visible object. > > > > 5. Or, in the immediately following mind-door process, awareness can > arise > > (again with the javana cittas) and be aware of either the visible > object > > (just fallen away) or the seeing (also just fallen away). Similarly, > it > > can be aware (and understanding can understand) sound or hearing or > any > > other dhamma *appearing*. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > This "just fallen away" usage to me is an "eel wriggling" term. .... S: No need to refer to it unless someone wants a very detailed explanation. It's the present 'characteristic' of the dhamma which strictly speaking has just fallen away. Not 'eel wriggling'! ... > If a > phenomenon is "fallen away", whether that "just" happened or it happened > a long > time ago, it is *gone* - it no longer exists, and it cannot be and is > not > present to be an object. Gone is gone. ... S: If it's the object just experienced by the sense-door process and now by the succeeding mind-door process, it is still considered as the 'present' dhamma or characteristic of that dhamma in the texts. What is long gone can only be the object of thinking for us. .... >That makes it an "object of > consciousness" > only in a loose manner of speaking. There may be a recollection process > going > on that we can refer to as recalling or noting the just-passed > phenomenon, > but that phenomenon is not there - it does not exist. As Ken is fond of > reminding us, there is only the present moment. .... S: Yes, it is only the present moment, but it can be referred to as the 'not-so-classifiable' object discussed before. The recollection you refer to is thinking. ... > When the cittas accompanied by> > > awareness and understanding (and other sobhana cetasikas) arise, they > > experience a dhamma. Such a dhamma may be seeing, hearing or any other > > presently appearing dhamma. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sarah, don't you mean here "a sight, sound, or any other > presently > appearing dhamma" instead? > ----------------------------------------- ... S: No, I meant what I said:-) These were probably the dhammas being discussed, I forget. 'Seeing, hearing, visible object, sound or any other presently appearing dhamma' would be fine too. If there could not be direct awareness of seeing now when it appears (even if, strictly speaking, it has just fallen away), there could not be any development of satipatthana. Namas and rupas have to be known and awareness has to be aware of seeing and hearing amongst such namas! Perhaps there's something for you to consider here as you play with little Sophie! Metta, Sarah ======= #69062 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 sarahprocter... Hi James, (Howard & all). --- buddhatrue wrote: > > B.Bodhi also gives this note which you might find interesting: > > > > "The first five states in the list [S: in the sutta with regard to > the > > states in the first jhana] are the jhaana factors proper of the > first > > jhaana; the following states are additional components each > performing > > their individual functions within the jhaana. This minute analysis > of > > mental states into their components anticipates the methodology of > the > > Abhidhamma, and it is thus no coincidence that the name of > Saariputta is > > so closely linked witht the emergence of the Abhidhamma literature." > > ..... > James: Thanks, that is interesting. I think that B. Bodhi is being a > little diplomatic in the way he describes the situation. What do you > think of this note? ;-)) .... S: I think it's just a good example of the consistency between the Abhidhamma and the Suttas. Remember, that this is the Buddha talking (unless it's all a 'fake' of course, as you suggest:-)): "And the states in the first jhaana - the applied thought, the sustained thought, the rapture, the pleasure, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, perception, volition, and mind; the zeal, decision, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by one as they occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared. He understood thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been, come into being; having been, they vanish.' " .... note to Howard & all: This was not defining and knowing by thinking or intellectual understanding, but direct insight into these dhammas as they appeared, as *they were present*, even though strictly speaking the dhammas associated with jhaana have just fallen away. When they arise with jhana cittas, the object is the jhana object, not the reality known by insight. From the Abhidhamma pov, no problem with the sutta:-). Metta, Sarah ======= #69063 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 4:12 am Subject: The reality of the present moment egberdina Hi all, What is the reality of the present moment? This is a question often asked, and it underscores a not knowing of what the reality of the present moment is. Kind Regards Herman #69064 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 4:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I hope you are looking resplendent after your beauty sleep :-) James: Oh yes, I am practically breathtaking! ;-)) I just > wanted to clear something up. > > Rest assured, sex is very pleasing and very satisfying. James: Not ultimately, but I know what you mean. And I very > much enjoy eating a delicious meal. But only once I allowed myself to > remain mindful during eating, and it was the most disgusting > experience. James: That sounds great! You must have very strong powers of mindfulness. However, one time doesn't really mean anything. You must continue to practice mindfulness and the food will no longer be disgusting, and it will no longer be pleasurable- it will just be food. Greed and aversion are poisons are the mind which are eliminated by wisdom. Consequently, I don't pursue mindfulness during eating. James: Don't be deterred by a few unpleasant experiences. That's just Mara. > I'd rather enjoy it than know what I'm doing. For the same reason I do > not pursue mindfulness during courtship or beyond. James: This is, of course, your choice. However, I can assure you that the pleasure not dependent on the senses, the pleasure of nibbana, is the greatest pleasure of all. Many arahants after they achieve nibbana sit in complete bliss for a week or more just enjoying the pleasure of release. Could you do that with a good meal or a good lay? ;-)) > > > Cheers, big ears > > > Herman > Metta, James #69065 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 4:44 am Subject: Aware Foundation! bhikkhu5 Friends Awareness (Sati) is the Essential Key to Mental Progress: Well-Established, Well-Assured, & Well-Founded should Awareness be! Even as the foundation of the Himalaya mountains is quite deep dug in underground and all immovable… Such imperturbable awareness makes illuminating insight arise, since whatever subject mind is directed to, pays attention to, reflects on, is conscious of, investigates or reviews, then this will appear to one as assured & ascertained, all laid plain open, wholly disclosed & entirely revealed. Such exact & lucid mental clarity is due to acute & undistracted awareness, that descends into the object, drills into & penetrates it completely. Exactly so does any object appear as obvious, as the other worlds do to one possessing the divine eye... Source: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=771100 On the Divine Eye (Dibba-Cakkhu): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/b_f/dibba_cakkhu.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <.....> #69066 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 5:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Inauthenticity of Anupada Sutta, MN111 buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: I think it's just a good example of the consistency between the > Abhidhamma and the Suttas. Remember, that this is the Buddha talking > (unless it's all a 'fake' of course, as you suggest:-)): Yes, I still think it's a fake. Just because something is written in ancient texts that doesn't mean it is true. In Mahayana Buddhism there are many suttas supposedly spoken by the Buddha, some describing Pure Lands, where all Buddhas go to live for eternity after they die- do you believe those suttas were also spoken by the Buddha just because they say so and because they are ancient?? Sarah, this sutta being a fake is not far-fetched in the least. Metta, James #69067 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 5:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. nilovg Hi Herman, please look at the whole context. Nina. Op 2-mrt-2007, om 11:14 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Clearly, not all realities are the same for you. I see nothing that is > kusala about saying that you believe what you do not do. #69068 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 6:06 am Subject: Re: New Group nichiconn Hi James, snipping (in a friendly way): C: The realm of rebirth depends on the last javana citta before the cuti citta. J: Is this something that we need to be extremely concerned about or have any control over? C: Ignoring the standard "anatta/paccayas" answer, I'd say about as much as we do over the colours of our hair. Not to be overly absurd, but we've got the dye of the Teachings to apply. Not a permanent fix with a single application but then for most of us, the hair doesn't turn overnight, either. Might be nice to be extremely concerned, but for the most part, I forget that each moment is a kind of death and all about urgency. peace, connie #69069 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 4:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The reality of the present moment TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/2/2007 5:13:16 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi all, What is the reality of the present moment? This is a question often asked, and it underscores a not knowing of what the reality of the present moment is. Kind Regards Herman Hi Herman... Impermanence, Dukkha, no-self. And that's all I've got to say about that. But I would like a box of chocolates. ;-) TG #69070 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 11:00 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 1, no 5 nilovg Dear friends, The “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 36) which gives an explanation of the words of this sutta states that the element of heat plays its part in the process of ageing: “... whereby this body grows old, reaches the decline of the faculties, loss of strength, wrinkles, greyness, and so on.” As to the expression “burnt up”, it explains that when one is excited the internal element of heat causes the body to burn. The element of heat also has a function in the digestion of food, it “cooks” what is eaten and drunk. We may notice changes in body-temperature because of different conditions, for instance through the digestion of our food, or when we are excited, angry or afraid. So long as we are still alive the internal element of heat arises and falls away all the time. When heat presents itself and there is awareness of it it can be known as only a rúpa element, not “my body-heat”. When we are absorbed in excitement, anger or fear we forget that there are in reality only different kinds of nĺma and rúpa that arise and fall away. The element of heat can be internal or external. Sĺriputta explained that the liability to change of the external heat element and its impermanence can be seen when it becomes agitated and burns up villages, towns, districts and regions, and is then extinguished through lack of fuel. Both the internal and the external element of heat are impermanent and not self. As to the Element of Wind (in Pĺli: vĺyo dhĺtu) or motion, the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 93) defines it as follows 8 : ... The air element (wind) has the characteristic of distending. Its function is to cause motion. It is manifested as conveying. We may believe that we can see motion of objects but the rúpa which is motion cannot be seen. What we mean by motion as we express it in conventional language is not the same as the element of wind or motion. We can conclude that something has moved because there are different moments of seeing and thinking, and there is association of these different experiences, but that is not the experience of the rúpa which is motion. This rúpa can be directly experienced through the bodysense. When we touch a body or an object with a certain resilience, the characteristic of motion or pressure may present itself. These are characteristics of the element of wind. It can also be described as vibration or oscillation. As we read in the definition, the function of the element of wind is to cause motion and it is manifested as conveying. It is, for example, a condition for the movement of the limbs of the body. However, we should not confuse pictorial ideas with the direct experience of this rúpa through the bodysense. ***** Nina. #69071 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 11:05 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 9, no 2 nilovg Dear friends, Sarah sent me some tapes which were recorded in Bangkok with discussions about the development of right understanding. These discussions were held in Khun Sujin's house and also during a trip to Kanchanaburi. Sarah said that many people want to change their character, that they want to become a better person. There is so much quarreling in daily life and people become disappointed when their life does not change for the better after they have listened to the Dhamma. They hope to be able to change themselves in a meditation center if they work very hard at it. Khun Sujin remarked that the cittas which quarrel are anattĺ , not self, that they arise because of conditions. Right understanding can see that there is nobody at that moment. There is only nĺma which experiences and even the words are motivated by such and such realities, they do not belong to anybody. Sarah said that one's aim may be a quiet, peaceful life without quarrels. Dosa is only eradicated at the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the "non-returner", the anĺgĺmí. Khun Sujin said: "Instead of minding too much about different defilements one could develop understanding of realities, so that all akusala will become less. Ignorance which is the cause of all akusala will be eliminated by right understanding. Maybe one is just satisfied to have less quarreling, and there is no development of understanding, no elimination of ignorance, but that depends on one's inclinations." Several of the discussions were about going to a meditation center since many people believe that that is beneficial. They think that it is helpful to be away from people. They should find out whether that is their nature and whether it helps them to become more detached, to have less clinging to a result; whether it helps them to understand their own accumulations more deeply. Is it not better to have a few moments of awareness and understanding without any desire to "plan" such moments? Some people believe that an "intensive course" in a center can be a short-cut to reach the goal. How can there be a short- cut if there is no understanding of this moment? The understanding of this very moment should be the test for our progress. ***** Nina. #69072 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 11:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nilovg Hi Herman, Yes, that is what I meant in the other post: realities are the same, but understanding can develop. But what we take for the body are elements that arise and fall away. Nina. Op 28-feb-2007, om 23:11 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > The body stays just as it is on the realisation of anatta. The > body does not vaporise on the realisation of anatta, only the belief > that it plays host to an enduring self. #69073 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 12:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - Hi, Howard, I hope the family is all doing well. ------------------------------ Howard: Thanks! They're all fine! :-) ------------------------------ C: Maybe I'm eroto-phobic. As for the Death Train, if we die when we're all wrapped up in the pleasure of sensual indulgence, I think the texts say we can expect one of two destinations: either the animal or hell realms. ====================== H: Lots of humans heading for warrens or for hell, Connie! ;-) ==== C: Yes. Fairly safe bet any non-ariyan is on the road... not necessarily a straight-shot, but sooner or later. -------------------------------- Howard: Sooner or later? Yeah, likely so. -------------------------------- ==== H: Ya know, the human realm is said to be the most auspicious for progress on the path, but without sex, there would be no humans. (Not too many virgin births reported these days!) ==== C: ;) but ew, careful! you could be misread as advocating sexual activity only for it's rebirth linking function (which might offend some ppl); ---------------------------------- Howard: Certainly not my perspective. I'm much too much of an enthusiast! (Heading straight to Avicci Hell, I am!) ---------------------------------- or even that anyone with a hint of right view Should have kids, the more the merrier! I'm just saying that there's not likely to be a lot of right view involved in the mess... in the long haul, IMO, it's not the type of bodily conduct that is to be cultivated (MN 114); of course, we start where we are & simply saying No without any understanding doesn't lead in the right direction, either. ========= H: You might note, also, that sexual relations are not proscribed for laypersons. (No pun here, Connie! ;-) ==== C: ;) Which is not to say they're prescribed, either. (As an aside, is meditation prescribed for laity & if so, what type(s)? ;)) -------------------------------------- Howard: My type of course! All my takes on the Dhamma are the correct ones! Not a doubt! LOLOL! -------------------------------------- Best wishes, connie =================================== With metta, Howard #69074 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 2:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Who knows anatta? /was Re: daana corner egberdina Hi KenH, On 02/03/07, ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Herman, > > ------------------- > <. . .> > H: > Before a man and a woman have a baby there is no other people. > -------------------- > > At last count there were approximately seven billion other people. > > Unless you are thinking of Adam and Eve(?) > I obviously misread you. When you wrote "Creating? Are you suggesting they have control over other people's vipaka? " I read it to mean that the birth of babies depends on the vipaka of people who have just died, or something similarly animistic. > ----------------------------- > H: > Anyway, you will always have my admiration for the choice you > have made, and the control you exercise in maintaining that intention. > ------------------------------ > > Thanks, but be careful how you talk - there may be young people > listening. I love being childless and have never wanted it any other > way. But, if told a young couple that, I would be in all sorts of > trouble with their parents. By the same token, I wouldn't want them > blindly assuming childlessness was a terrible sacrifice. > > All too often, young people are given to believe that parenthood is > their only reasonable option. When it is too late some of them > secretly realize they were duped. > > ------------------------ You have my full agreement. Thanks for the pleasant discussion :-) Kind Regards Herman #69075 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 2:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! egberdina Hi Sarah, On 02/03/07, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Howard, > > .... > S: Nina already replied. It depends on kamma what rupa is experienced now > and again at such a moment, there's no idea of it being the same or > different from any other rupa experienced. But, we know, it's never the > same visible object from one split-second to the next. > Vicki and I often work together in the garden. Some days we forget to put on sun screen. After a while Vicki feels that she is getting sunburnt, while I don't. She doesn't tan, I do. Her forebears have been from Ireland forever, which explains her pale while skin. My forebears migrated to Holland from Spain and Mongolia. Which explains my olive skin. To suggest that Vicki's sensations of being sunburnt are due to kamma is a very weak, fanciful and non-explanatory account of the complex interrelationships that make up the experiences of daily life. Such blanket simplifications may have been leading edge speculation 2500 years ago, but it just won't cut it anymore, Sarah. Only the uncritical are going to be impressed with such sophistry :-). Kind Regards Herman Messages 69069 - 69075 of 69075 Yahoo!My Yahoo!Mail Make Y! your home page Search: Welcome, nichiconn [Sign Out, My Account] Groups Home -Help nichiconn · connieparker@intergate.com | Group Member - Edit Membership Start a Group | My Groups dhammastudygroup · Dhamma Study Group (DSG) Home Messages Post Files Photos Links Yahoo! Groups Tips Did you know... Hear how Yahoo! Groups has changed the lives of others. Take me there. Yahoo! 360° Share your life through photos, blogs, more. Messages Messages Help Message # Search: Advanced Start Topic Messages 69076 - 69088 of 69088 Oldest | < Older | Newer > | Newest Messages: Show Message Summaries (Group by Topic) Sort by Date #69076 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 3:21 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (37) nichiconn Dear Friends, Bhaddaa of the Kaapilaas, part four of four: "Tatheva bhaddaakaapilaanii, tevijjaa maccuhaayinii; dhaareti antima.m deha.m, jitvaa maara.m savaahana.m. "Disvaa aadiinava.m loke, ubho pabbajitaa maya.m; tyamha khii.naasavaa dantaa, siitibhuutaamha nibbutaa. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. I just the same way, Bhaddaa Kaapilaani, with triple knowledge, having left death behind, bears her last body, having conquered Maara and his mount. Having seen the peril in the world, we both went forth. With taintes annihilated, tamed, we have become cool, quenched. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. arahatta.m pana patvaa pubbenivaasa~naa.ne ci.n.navasii ahosi; tattha saatisaya.m kataadhikaarattaa aparabhaage ta.m satthaa jetavane ariyaga.namajjhe nisinno bhikkhuniyo pa.tipaa.tiyaa .thaanantaresu .thapento pubbenivaasa.m anussarantiina.m agga.t.thaane .thapesi; saa ekadivasa.m mahaakassapattherassa gu.naabhitthavanapubbaka.m attano katakiccataadivibhaavanamukhena udaana.m udaanentii- 63. "putto buddhassa daayaado, kassapo susamaahito; pubbenivaasa.m yovedi, saggaapaaya~nca passati. 64. "Atho jaatikkhaya.m patto, abhi~n~naavosito muni; etaahi tiihi vijjaahi, tevijjo hoti braahma.no. 65. "Tatheva bhaddaakaapilaanii, tevijjaa maccuhaayinii; dhaareti antima.m deha.m, jetvaa maara.m savaahana.m. 66. "Disvaa aadiinava.m loke, ubho pabbajitaa maya.m; tyamha khii.naasavaa dantaa, siitibhuutaamha nibbutaa"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. Now having attained Arahatship, she became one who has mastery of the knowledge of previous existences. Then, because of the fact she had made an ardent resolution, when the Teacher was seated afterwards in the midst of a group of noble ones in the Jeta Grove, placing bhikkhuniis in order in [special] positions, he placed her in the foremost position among those who remember previous existences. One day, she first praised the good qualities of Thera Mahaa-Kassapa himself, making clear such good qualities as having done his duty, and making a solemn utterance she spoke these verses: 63-64. Kassapa, the son, the heir of the Buddha, well concentrated, who knows that he has lived before, and who sees heaven and hell, and who has attained the destruction of rebirths, is a sage perfected in direct knowledges, he is a brahman with triple knowledge. 65. In just the same way, Bhaddaa Kaapilaani, with triple knowledge, having left death behind, bers her last body, having conquered Maara and his mount. 66. Having seen the peril in the world, we both went forth. With taints annihilated, tamed, we have become cool, quenched. RD: Son of the Buddha and his heir is he, Great Kassapa, master of self, serene! The vision of far, bygone days is his, Ay, heaven and hell no secrets hold for him. (63) Death too of rebirth hath he won, and eke A seer is he of mystic lore profound. By these three arms *189 of learning doth he stand Thrice-wise, 'mong gods and men elect, sublime. (64) She too, Bhaddaa the Kapilan - thrice-wise And victor over death and birth is she - Bears to this end her last incarnate frame, For she hath conquered Mara and his host. (65) We both have seen, both he and I, the woe And pity of the world, and have gone forth. We both are Arahants with selves well tamed. Cool are we both, ours is Nibbana now! (66) *189 The metaphor is not Buddhist. The Pali reads 'by these three wisdoms' (etaahi tiihi vijjaahi). See Ps. xxii. {#68171, 68175} The case of Bhaddaa is noteworthy as being the only one where wife and husband - united for so many ages - act in harmony up to the day when, having aided each other in donning the religious dress, they leave the world together, then part on their several ways to the Buddha, enjoying thereafter good comradeship in the Order. So she in the Apadaana: 'Thereafter soon I won the rank of Arahant. Ah! well for me who held the friendship wise and good Of glorious Kassapa.' {c: see also: www.dhammastudy.com/ttfive.html where Amara Chayabongse relates the story in "The Lives and Psalms of the Buddha's Disciples"} Tattha putto buddhassa daayaadoti buddhaanubuddhabhaavato sammaasambuddhassa anujaatasuto tato eva tassa daayabhuutassa navalokuttaradhammassa aadaanena daayaado kassapo lokiyalokuttarehi samaadhiihi su.t.thu samaahitacittataaya susamaahito. Pubbenivaasa.m yovediiti yo mahaakassapatthero pubbenivaasa.m attano paresa~nca nivutthakkhandhasantaana.m pubbenivaasaanussati~naa.nena paaka.ta.m katvaa avedi a~n~naasi pa.tivijjhi. Saggaapaaya~nca passatiiti chabbiisatidevalokabheda.m sagga.m catubbidha.m apaaya~nca dibbacakkhunaa hatthatale aamalaka.m viya passati. 63. There, the son, the heir of the Buddha means: the son born after the Fully and Perfectly Awakened One, being awakened after the Buddha [the Awakened One], and as a result of taking up the ninefold supramundane Doctrine when he became the heir (daayada-bhuutassa), he is Kassapa ... the heir (daayado). He is well concentrated (susamaa-hito) because his mind is well concentrated (su.t.thu samaahita-cittataaya) through mundane and suprmundane concentration (lokiya-lokuttarehi samaadhiihi). Who knows that he has lived before (pubbe-nivaasa.m) means: namely Thera Mahaa-Kassapa lived before, having made plain the succession of aggregates lived by himself and by others through the knowledge of the recollection of previous existences (pubbe-nivaasaanussati-~naa.nena); who knows, he knew, he penetrated. And sees heaven and hell (saggaapaaya~n) means: he sees heaven (sagga.m), the twenty-six divisions of the deva realms (chabbiisati-deva-loka-bheda.m), and the fourfold lower realms (apaaya~n) with the divine eye as if [looking at] an aamalaka fruit in the palm of his hand [ie, very clearly]. Atho jaatikkhaya.m pattoti tato para.m jaatikkhayasa"nkhaata.m arahatta.m patto. Abhi~n~naaya abhivisi.t.thena ~naa.nena abhi~n~neyya.m dhamma.m abhijaanitvaa pari~n~neyya.m parijaanitvaa pahaatabba.m pahaaya sacchikaatabba.m sacchikatvaa vosito ni.t.tha.m patto katakicco. Aasavakkhayapa~n~naasa"nkhaata.m mona.m pattattaa muni. Tatheva bhaddaakaapilaaniiti yathaa mahaakassapo etaahi yathaavuttaahi tiihi vijjaahi tevijjo maccuhaayii ca, tatheva bhaddaakaapilaanii tevijjaa maccuhaayiniiti. Tato eva dhaareti antima.m deha.m, jetvaa maara.m savaahananti attaanameva para.m viya katvaa dasseti. 64-65. And has attained the destruction of rebirths (jaati-kkhaya.m) means: then, after that, he attained Arahatship, which is called the destruction of rebirths (jaati-kkhaya-sa"ndhaata.m). Through direct knowledge he understood the Doctrine, which is to be known through the most excellent knowledge, having known what is to be known, having eliminated what is to be eliminated, having realized what is to be realized, he is perfected, he has attained the end, having done his duty. He is a sage (muni) because he has attained the wisdom (mona.m) called the wisdom of the destruction of the taints. In just the same way Bhaddaa Kaapilaanii means: just as Mahaa-Kassapa has been said to possess the threefold true knowlede (te-vijjo) through the three true knowledges (tiihi vijjaahi) and to have left death behind (maccu-haayii), in just the same way Bhaddaa Kaapilaanii, with triple knowledge (te-vijjaa), having left death behind (maccu-haayinii) is said. As a result, [she] bears her last body, having conquered Maara and his mount, which means: she indicates herself as if she were someone else. Idaani yathaa therassa pa.tipatti aadimajjhapariyosaanakalyaa.naa, eva.m mamapiiti dassentii "disvaa aadiinavan"ti osaanagaathamaaha. Tattha tyamha khii.naasavaa dantaati te maya.m mahaakassapatthero aha~nca uttamena damena dantaa sabbaso khii.naasavaa ca amha. Siitibhuutaamha nibbutaati tato eva kilesapari.laahaabhaavato siitibhuutaa sa-upaadisesaaya nibbaanadhaatuyaa nibbutaa ca amha bhavaamaati attho. 66. Now just as the thera's practice is good in the beginning, the middle, and the end, in just the same way, indicating "For me also," having seen peril, she says the final verse. There, with taints annihilated, tamed (dantaa), we are (te amha) means: we (te maya.m), Thera Mahaa-Kassapa and I, are tamed by the highest taming (uttamena damena), and in every way are with taints annihilated. We have become ([a]mha) cool, quenched means: therefore, we have become (amha = bhavaama) cool because of the absence of the burning defilements and quenched because of the element of quenching with [the result of past] attachment still remaining. That is the meaning. Bhaddaakaapilaaniitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Catukkanipaatava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Here ends the commentary on the verses by Therii Bhaddaa Kaapilaanii. Here ends the commentary on the section of four [verses]. ==== peace, connie #69077 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 3:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group egberdina Hi James, On 02/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > James: That sounds great! You must have very strong powers of > mindfulness. However, one time doesn't really mean anything. You > must continue to practice mindfulness and the food will no longer be > disgusting, and it will no longer be pleasurable- it will just be > food. Greed and aversion are poisons are the mind which are > eliminated by wisdom. > Thanks for your comments. I recognise greed and aversion as being those things that give meaning and value to life. If there is nothing to look forward to, and nothing to avoid, all events, all actions are identical in worth. And if life becomes a sequence of meaningless events, not one of more significance than another, one may as well not be. And I do agree that this is wisdom. Whether we are, or whether we are not, it makes not an ounce of difference. As my old mate Sartre says ".....it amounts to the same thing whether one gets drunk alone, or is a leader of nations." > > James: This is, of course, your choice. However, I can assure you > that the pleasure not dependent on the senses, the pleasure of > nibbana, is the greatest pleasure of all. Many arahants after they > achieve nibbana sit in complete bliss for a week or more just > enjoying the pleasure of release. Could you do that with a good meal > or a good lay? ;-)) > :-) Busily becoming what we are, is in the words of Sartre, being a useless passion. Suffering is also absolutely useless. I appreciate you pointing to the pleasure of non-sensual bliss. An empty mind is it's own reward. Thanks, and cheers Herman #69078 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 4:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - Hi Howard, Sorry to get back to your message (#68898) while you're away. Have a good trip btw. ----------------------------- Howard: Thanks! We are! :-) ------------------------------ --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > The notion of ear sense as a rupa is very, very close to a > conventional one, it seems to me. It seems to be described as a very > tiny bit of matter > (in the physicist's or chemist's sense) that is located in the interior > of the > very-conventional ear organ. (Actually, it's not supposed to be a single > bit > of matter, but a series of arising and ceasing bits, perhaps > molecular-sized or > far smaller-sized particles of material substance, to be fair.) .... S: I just think of ear-sense as being the rupa which arises and falls away all the time and which is necessary in order for hearing to make contact with sound anytime. There has to be the 'coming together' of these different ayatanas. ..... > > 3. When awareness arises, it can only ever be aware of one object, i.e > one > > characteristic, at a time. > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Interesting that here you refer to an object as a characteristic. > Now, > *that* usage appeals to me, as I identify dhammas with characteristics, > not > distinguishing between a dhamma and "it's" characteristic. I also note > that the > usage of "characteristic", e,g, the characteristic of (a specific) > hardness > or heat, or sound or sight, etc, rather pleasantly blurs the distinction > > between "external" and "internal". .... S: When there is awareness of the characteristic of hardness, there's no iea of 'external' or 'internal'. Just the characteristic of hardness which appears, regardless of whether we're touching the computer or our body. ----------------------------- Howard: Yes, I agree. ---------------------------- .... It doesn't obliterate it, but it does > blur it. It > tends to lessen the disparity between Buddhist > phenomenalism/experientialism > and Buddhist "objectivism". .... S: Must be right then, lol! --------------------------- Howard: ;-) ------------------------- ... > BTW, I raised an issue in a recent post that no one has responded > to. > It is the matter of whether different "people" are ever aware of the > literally > same rupa. I don't mean that they have the identically same experience - > of > course they cannot, but whether thay ever make contact with the very > same rupa. > If not, if they never do, then there is a separate realm of rupas for > each > namarupic flow, and the distinction between the radical phenomenalist > position > and the objectivist position loses its significance. .... S: Nina already replied. It depends on kamma what rupa is experienced now and again at such a moment, there's no idea of it being the same or different from any other rupa experienced. But, we know, it's never the same visible object from one split-second to the next. .... > > 4. So, in the sense-door process in which seeing saw visible object, > > awareness can arise (with the javana cittas) and be aware of that same > > visible object. > > > > 5. Or, in the immediately following mind-door process, awareness can > arise > > (again with the javana cittas) and be aware of either the visible > object > > (just fallen away) or the seeing (also just fallen away). Similarly, > it > > can be aware (and understanding can understand) sound or hearing or > any > > other dhamma *appearing*. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > This "just fallen away" usage to me is an "eel wriggling" term. .... S: No need to refer to it unless someone wants a very detailed explanation. It's the present 'characteristic' of the dhamma which strictly speaking has just fallen away. Not 'eel wriggling'! ... > If a > phenomenon is "fallen away", whether that "just" happened or it happened > a long > time ago, it is *gone* - it no longer exists, and it cannot be and is > not > present to be an object. Gone is gone. ... S: If it's the object just experienced by the sense-door process and now by the succeeding mind-door process, it is still considered as the 'present' dhamma or characteristic of that dhamma in the texts. What is long gone can only be the object of thinking for us. .... >That makes it an "object of > consciousness" > only in a loose manner of speaking. There may be a recollection process > going > on that we can refer to as recalling or noting the just-passed > phenomenon, > but that phenomenon is not there - it does not exist. As Ken is fond of > reminding us, there is only the present moment. .... S: Yes, it is only the present moment, but it can be referred to as the 'not-so-classifiable' object discussed before. ---------------------------------- Howard: Too vague for my taste. Certainly too vague, I should think, for an abhidhammika's taste! ---------------------------------- The recollection you refer to is thinking. ... > When the cittas accompanied by> > > awareness and understanding (and other sobhana cetasikas) arise, they > > experience a dhamma. Such a dhamma may be seeing, hearing or any other > > presently appearing dhamma. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sarah, don't you mean here "a sight, sound, or any other > presently > appearing dhamma" instead? > ----------------------------------------- ... S: No, I meant what I said:-) These were probably the dhammas being discussed, I forget. 'Seeing, hearing, visible object, sound or any other presently appearing dhamma' would be fine too. If there could not be direct awareness of seeing now when it appears (even if, strictly speaking, it has just fallen away), there could not be any development of satipatthana. Namas and rupas have to be known and awareness has to be aware of seeing and hearing amongst such namas! --------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, okay. I just missed the context. So, you were speaking of namic objects. That's fine. --------------------------------------------- Perhaps there's something for you to consider here as you play with little Sophie! ------------------------------------------- Howard: Nah, couldn't do that - then I wouldn't be paying attention to the present moment! ;-)) ----------------------------------------- Metta, Sarah ======= ====================================== With metta, Howard #69079 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 10:13 am Subject: Buddhism From an Islamic Point of View TGrand458@... _http://video.google.com/url?docid=6317066305444907870&esrc=sr1&ev=v&q=buddhis t&vidurl=http://video.google.com/videoplay%3Fdocid%3D6317066305444907870%26q%3 Dbuddhist&usg=AL29H21p9X72_pj3_1OmeGlG0gXZR3HTBA_ (http://video.google.com/url?docid=6317066305444907870&esrc=sr1&ev=v&q=buddhist&\ vidurl=http://video.google .com/videoplay?docid=6317066305444907870&q=buddhist&usg=AL29H21p9X72_pj3_1OmeG lG0gXZR3HTBA) Hi All This video is very interesting and scary too. Its seems about an hour long. I've just watched the first 10 minutes or so. I hope this link works. TG #69080 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 5:01 pm Subject: Re: Precepts and Control nichiconn Hi again Herman, Reading "The Path of Purity", ch.1. In the section on the kinds of virtue, it's stated that (among others) it's "two kinds as positive or negative rules of conduct". Next page goes on to say: << (ii) In the twofold portion (dyad 1) the fulfilling of the precepts enacted by the Blessed One thus: "This ought to be practised," is a positive rule of conduct; the non-doing of what has been prohibited as, "This ought not to be practised," is a negative rule of conduct. Here is the word-definition: by having fulfilled the precepts those who are endowed with a precept are pratised in it -- 'positive rule of conduct.' By means of it they avoid, guard against a prohibition -- 'negative rule of conduct.' Of these two, the former is accomplished by the effort of faith, the latter by faith. Thus it is twofold as positive and negative rules of conduct. >> Just reminded me of your post (#69040) & thought I'd pass it along... not so much the CONTROL of an individual as of faith. Not much fear of sunburning here today... expecting more snow tonight and I'm hanging out in the basement with my blanky over my shoulders... the fingers a tad cold. Maybe past time to turn the heat up? peace, connie #69081 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 3:13 pm Subject: Re: The reality of the present moment antony272b2 Dear Herman, Quoting Izabel from E-Sangha: "I think "all this about the present moment" is a strategy to aid one to act skillfully. I don't think about the "present moment" so much in terms of time, but in terms of acting. Days and nights fly by, fly by, what am I doing right now ...?" +++ with metta / Antony. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi all, > > What is the reality of the present moment? > > This is a question often asked, and it underscores a not knowing of > what the reality of the present moment is. > #69082 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 5:41 pm Subject: Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for clarifying. I'd like to focus a bit more on this below: Kh. Sujin: "See but its there ... its gone but its there because the ruupa does not arise just once [in a door-way] - many, many, many all the time ..." ----------- N: "That is important: visible object impinges again and again on the eyesense, there is the eye-door process again and again, alternated with mind-door processes." ------- Sujin: "... and now ... the ruupa which has arisen has fallen away so it must be the new one all the time but we cannot know which one is the object of awareness but the characteristic of it appears so it can be this one or that one or what ones?...not only one ruupa appears now..." ------- N: "I remember this, it is important. We should not bother which rupa, but be aware of its characteristic when it appears. Rupa impinges again and again, but we do not need to think about this. I am thinking now of the nimitta of condiitoned paramattha dhammas. They arise and fall away so fast and we experience only the nimitta. But all the same: there can be awareness of the characteristics that appear, even though we only experience nimittas." Can you please clarify this above noted distinction: characteristics can be the objects of awareness even though it is only nimitta which we experience? To take a stab at it, I'd say that the object of awareness is nimitta because ruupa continues to arise and fall away past the moment at which the object is cognised and, even so, it is still possible to become aware of the characteristic of the given ruupa nonetheless. Can you please say what you mean when you use 'awareness', and 'experience' in the above? Thanks, Nina. Sincerely, Scott. #69083 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 4:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 TGrand458@... Hi Nina Just a few short things... In a message dated 3/2/2007 2:08:22 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: TG: Kamma is not a "something" that produces eye sense either. It is conditions that generate what arises and it is conditions that disintegrate the same. Kamma is one of many conditions necessary for eye sense. Eye sense varies IN ACCORDANCE to conditions. I do not consider it to be "popping on and off." ------- N: Yes, this is understandable. That is because you do not see impermanence as momentary. -------- TG: I see impermanence as continuous. I do not see "dhammas" arising and immediately ceasing, because I do not see anything as having "its own essence" whereby it can be distinguish "as its own thing" apart from any other phenomena. That latter sort of "identification process" creates "the delusion of entities" when in fact there is no such thing. The study of "elements" is for the purpose of "turning away" from them, not for the purpose of "establishing" them. “Form is like a lump of foam, Feeling like a water bubble; Perception is like a mirage, Volitions like a plantain trunk (coreless), And consciousness like an illusion, (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 952 – 953) -------- T.G.: TG: I seem to recall in either the Visuddhimagga or Manual of Abhidhamma that plants are mentioned as produced by temperature. Are non-living forms, such as rocks, included as well? I don't remember that. I'm just interested for accuracy sake. The entire idea though, of being solely produced by temperature, is bordering on the ludicrous. --------- N: Plants are also non-living, they do not have jivitindriya ruupa. They have no citta, commit no kamma. The answer is: yes, the rupas we call rock are not produced by kamma, citta, or nutrition, thus by the element of heat. The smallest unit of rupa consists of eight rupas, including the four great element and one among these is the Element of fire, heat. That produces other rupas. TG: Interesting that you think plants are not living. I guess we would have a totally different idea of what nutrition means too. Apparently, from your definition, you feel only life stemming from delusion is life...i.e., sentient beings. You may be one of a very few people in the world who don't consider plants life though. That could be good, or bad. Personally, I'll stick to eating plants, rocks are just too crunchy. ;-) As for your last sentence...how can you possibly know that??? I mean, anyone can repeat what's in a book, but how do YOU know that??? Your statements are delivered as CLAIMS as to what's real. You do not say -- the books say this. And you do not say -- I believe it works this way. You just flat out say --- this is the way it is. How do you know this knowledge? If you have developed direct knowledge into -- "the element of fire produces other rupas" that's great. I'd be interested in your methods. Or if you have observed this directly through the senses... that's great. I'd be interested in those methods. Is there a Sutta source? If so I'd be interested in that as well. ******* Nina. TG #69084 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Antw.: [dsg] Q,. Rupas. Ch 1, no 2. Science. nilovg Hi Howard, I just select a few points. ------- H:They need to be viewed, I believe, as phenomenological events, as constituting the physical content of consciousness. They, and mental operations, alone and in aggregation, are what are taken for self - they form the matrix of our seemingly very personal, but actually quite impersonal, reality. Nobody takes molecules, atoms, electrons, muons, quarks, and strings personally, but folks do take such experiences as hardness, itches, warmth, sights, sounds, and so on, quite personally. -------------------------------------------- N: I understand and I am used to your expression: constituting the physical content of consciousness. You mean they can be experienced by citta. We also do not know the true nature of rupas outside, such as what is called molecules, atoms, etc. The impermanence is not really seen by pa~n~naa. There can also be wrong view with regard to outside phenomena (attaa-nu-ditthi). ------------------------------------------------- > N: Again, shall we replace belief by confidence. And this should not > be unwarranted. Based on thorough study and consideration of the > entire Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I very strongly disagree that this is the teaching of the Buddha. This is just the path of the scholar. It's a nice path, wholesome - but, in itself, no more than that. ----------------------------------------------- N: What are the four conditions for enlightenment? Association with the right friend, hearing the Dhamma, considering it, and pa.tipatti in accordance with the dhamma. The translation of pa.tipatti: reach the particular, that is: the particular characteristics that appear. Pa.tipatti is not: doing something. Usually we go about being forgetful, but sometimes, without tryting, heat or hardness presents itself. We can learn to be aware of them so that they are seen as rupas, not belonging to my body. The fact that hardness in the body has the same characteristic as hardness of a rock has a humbling effect. Nina. #69085 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 6:24 pm Subject: Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Hi James, > snipping (in a friendly way): > C: The realm of rebirth depends on the last javana citta before the cuti > citta. > J: Is this something that we need to be extremely concerned about or have > any control over? > C: Ignoring the standard "anatta/paccayas" answer, I'd say about as much > as we do over the colours of our hair. Not to be overly absurd, but we've > got the dye of the Teachings to apply. Not a permanent fix with a single > application but then for most of us, the hair doesn't turn overnight, > either. Might be nice to be extremely concerned, but for the most part, I > forget that each moment is a kind of death and all about urgency. > peace, > connie > Hmmm....I really don't understand this post. I don't understand the metaphor about dying your hair. I am really not very knowledgeable about the re-linking consciousness, but from what I have read one's proceeding life will very much determine the nature of that last consciousness. The final point I want to make is that living as a householder and enjoying sensual pleasures is not a guarantee of a rebirth in a hell or animal realm. Sotapanna still enjoy sensual pleasures and they are guaranteed rebirth in the human realm or higher. As far as dying your hair, I don't know much about that- but I have heard to not do it at home....go to a professional. ;-)) Metta, James #69086 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 6:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Thanks for your comments. I recognise greed and aversion as being > those things that give meaning and value to life. If there is nothing > to look forward to, and nothing to avoid, all events, all actions are > identical in worth. And if life becomes a sequence of meaningless > events, not one of more significance than another, one may as well not > be. And I do agree that this is wisdom. Whether we are, or whether we > are not, it makes not an ounce of difference. As my old mate Sartre > says ".....it amounts to the same thing whether one gets drunk alone, > or is a leader of nations." James: Well, we can't very much have a worthwhile conversation if I am talking Buddhism and you are talking existentialism. Perhaps you might like to read the writings of Nanavira Thera, a Buddhist monk who was greatly influenced by existentialism: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ctp_screen-view_v1.pdf Metta, James #69087 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 6:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group egberdina Hi James, On 03/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > > James: Well, we can't very much have a worthwhile conversation if I > am talking Buddhism and you are talking existentialism. Perhaps you > might like to read the writings of Nanavira Thera, a Buddhist monk > who was greatly influenced by existentialism: > http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/ctp_screen-view_v1.pdf > That's a bit like saying that gays and straights can't have a worthwhile conversation :-). I think there is much common ground between people of all sorts of persuasions. Vive la difference! Thanks for the Nanavira link. I have read his Clearing the Path three times already. One more time will definitely not hurt :-) Kind Regards Herman #69088 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 3:21 pm Subject: Re: New Group nichiconn Hi Mr Hoffmeister, Have I said welcome back yet? Consider it done, o opener of even more realms of thought! H: In terms of citta, how is an animal or hell realm different to a human or god realm? C: I can't rightly say I remember / have firsthand knowledge of any lifetimes there. In terms of this present lifetime, we might consider that we are born into a new realm with each moment... the old 'when I'm hogging down cake I'm an animal' and 'when I'm practising the boundless meditations, I'm godly', etc. ideas. I guess the best thing would be to ask an accomplished meditator since their attainments would correspond to certain of the heavenly realms. peace, connie #69089 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 7:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Who knows anatta? /was Re: daana corner ken_aitch Hi Herman, ----------- <. . .> H: > I obviously misread you. When you wrote "Creating? Are you suggesting they have control over other people's vipaka? " I read it to mean that the birth of babies depends on the vipaka of people who have just died, or something similarly animistic. ----------- Of course you misread me - you always misunderstand my DSG-style explanations of the Dhamma. That is because we are talking two different languages. You are talking a language in which concepts and realities can be one and the same. I am talking a language in which only nama and rupa can be real – all else is illusory. ----------------- <. . .> H: > Thanks for the pleasant discussion :-) ------------ Thanks to you too. I notice you snipped the Dhamma-related parts of our discussion; were they not-so-pleasant? You have been taking a rather aggressive tack with Nina and Sarah lately. In relation to this, I want you to understand the point of the snipped parts of our conversation. That is, you have not grasped the Dhamma (as found in the ancient texts) and, therefore, you find it silly. The fault is yours, not the Dhamma's and not other peoples'. The Dhamma is not silly. It only seems silly when you don't understand it. You wrote to Sarah: ---- > To suggest that Vicki's sensations of being sunburnt are due to kamma is a very weak, fanciful and non-explanatory account of the complex interrelationships that make up the experiences of daily life. Such blanket simplifications may have been leading edge speculation 2500 years ago, but it just won't cut it anymore, Sarah. Only the uncritical are going to be impressed with such sophistry :-). ---- So you think science (genetics, ancestry and so on) has superseded the doctrine of kamma and vipaka. That is because you still think sunburnt skin (for example) is an absolute reality. And you think the Buddha taught that sunburnt skin was a consequence of kamma. You are wrong! Even when they are speaking in conventional terms, Sarah and Nina are referring to the Buddha's teaching of paramattha dhammas. You have rejected the teaching of paramattha dhammas and, therefore, you cannot understand what Sarah and Nina are saying. But that's OK! Just understand that ignorance of the Dhamma is a conditioned mental phenomenon. It is not you or I. It arises because the company of good friends has not been sufficiently sought, the true Dhamma has not been sufficiently heard, and the true Dhamma has not been sufficiently considered. Ken H #69090 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 7:48 pm Subject: Re: New Group nichiconn Alright James, forget my stupid dye metaphor... The saying is "The deeper the indigo, the darker the blue." I didn't think that would make sense. We read the teachings in the beginning one way and then as we get more familiar and think about them more, assimilate them, the colour of our thoughts, if you will, changes. There's another saying, about the monk seeing danger in the slightest fault. And one about foregoing the lesser pleasures... but I'm back to my books for now - long selfish weekend for me. I'll leave the last word to you if you like. Nice talking with you, btw. peace, connie #69091 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 8:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Who knows anatta? /was Re: daana corner egberdina Hi KenH, On 03/03/07, ken_aitch wrote: > Hi Herman, > > Thanks to you too. I notice you snipped the Dhamma-related parts of > our discussion; were they not-so-pleasant? > They were fine Ken. I snipped them only because I could find no common ground between us. Like you said in your intro, we are talking different languages mostly, and therefore attempts at communication are going to be awkward. I appreciated your postings about your sick/dying friend, though. I know what a sick/dying friend is, but understand most of the other stuff you insist on to be no more than one hypothesis amongst many. > You have been taking a rather aggressive tack with Nina and Sarah > lately. In relation to this, I want you to understand the point of > the snipped parts of our conversation. That is, you have not grasped > the Dhamma (as found in the ancient texts) and, therefore, you find > it silly. The fault is yours, not the Dhamma's and not other > peoples'. The Dhamma is not silly. It only seems silly when you don't > understand it. We cannot even agree on what the Dhamma is, Ken. But for you to maintain your views, you need to deny the history of KenH, and therefore this post. So what I am doing replying to you must seem awfully insane to you. > > You wrote to Sarah: > ---- > > To suggest that Vicki's sensations of being sunburnt > are due to kamma is a very weak, fanciful and non-explanatory account > of the complex interrelationships that make up the experiences of > daily life. Such blanket simplifications may have been leading edge > speculation 2500 years ago, but it just won't cut it anymore, Sarah. > Only the uncritical are going to be impressed with such sophistry :-). > ---- > > So you think science (genetics, ancestry and so on) has superseded > the doctrine of kamma and vipaka. That is because you still think > sunburnt skin (for example) is an absolute reality. Yes, I think that modern science has superceded speculation. Mostly through a requirement that claims about the way things are need to be tested before they are made gospel. And they must remain open to testing. None of this closed canon doctrinal stuff. Yes, I think that sunburnt skin is real. BTW There are no degrees of reality, as far as I know. And you think the > Buddha taught that sunburnt skin was a consequence of kamma. You are > wrong! Yes, I would be wrong if I believed that. The Buddha taught no such thing. But that doesn't stop people from pronouncing their indepth knowledge of the causes of sensation, in his name. > > Even when they are speaking in conventional terms, Sarah and Nina are > referring to the Buddha's teaching of paramattha dhammas. You have > rejected the teaching of paramattha dhammas and, therefore, you > cannot understand what Sarah and Nina are saying. Fair enough. > But that's OK! Just understand that ignorance of the Dhamma is a > conditioned mental phenomenon. This is a silly sentence, IMO. If conditions were in place, I would already understand it. And if I don't understand it, your wish/command isn't going to make it so, is it? It is not you or I. It arises because > the company of good friends has not been sufficiently sought, the > true Dhamma has not been sufficiently heard, and the true Dhamma has > not been sufficiently considered. > Ken, I try and understand where people are coming from when they become very insistent about the correctness of their understanding of the way things are, especially when that is very much a fringe interpretation. There is the odd case of narcissism, (along the lines of MY VERY SPECIAL love affair with the Dhamma), spiritual one-up-manship (I'M better than you) and anxiety (as in anxiety). I think you have every reason to be anxious if you believe that there is a way out and that it is up to you to save yourself. But then again, thinking that you have outsmarted the universe you run the risk of going from anxiety to superiority. Instead of either of those unattractive options, you could just accept that not one of us is going to get out of this alive. And acknowledge the anatta, anicca and dukkha of the passing parade :-) Kind Regards Herman #69092 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 8:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group egberdina Hi the Conster, On 03/03/07, connie wrote: > > Hi Mr Hoffmeister, > Have I said welcome back yet? Consider it done, o opener of even more > realms of thought! I haven't kept track to be honest, but thanks anyway. I hope you will be as snug as a bug in a rug, with your books this weekend. AirCon (a fully intended pun) and singlets , 35C/95F here. Thank you for your Therigata series. Absolutely fascinating reading. I hope you will not be offended that I derive no doctrinal message from it, but I find it a fascinating account of how people experience their lives. Kind Regards Herman #69093 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 9:16 pm Subject: Faith (Re: Precepts and Control) buddhatrue Hi Connie, Herman, and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > Hi again Herman, > Of these two, > the former is accomplished by the effort of faith, the latter by faith. > Thus it is twofold as positive and negative rules of conduct. >> > > Just reminded me of your post (#69040) & thought I'd pass it along... not > so much the CONTROL of an individual as of faith. This is an excellent thing to point out!! So many westerners have problems with faith, and are attracted to Buddhism because they believe it is a faithless practice- but that is simply not true. Practicing the Buddha's path to perfection requires faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. There is no other way to do it! To use Herman as an example, Herman has doubts about Buddhism because he cannot intellectually grasp certain concepts: rebirth, kamma, and nibbana. He believes that any system of belief only has worth if it can be intellectually grasped. This is a big mistake!! Systems of thought which are self-contained and don't require any faith are absolutely worthless. What good is something which tells you what you already know? If you feel suffering and discontent, but want to feel better, what good is a system of thought which tells you that life is just suffering? It's worthless! Might as well drink alone, as Satyr writes, than learn such a thought system! Additionally, many westerners are afraid/uncomfortable of Buddhism because they see nibbana as annihilation. Nibbana is not annihilation! Only a materialist would view nibbana as annihilation. Sarah, Nina, Jon, and the other follows of KS do the Buddha's teaching a great disservice when they compare paranibbana to annihilation. They think they have it all figured out, because they think they have anatta all figured out, but they don't really know jack squat about it! What is it that they are missing? FAITH! They think that the Buddha's teaching can be intellectually figured out, just like existentialism, when it really cannot. All of this thinking ruins the Buddha's teaching and makes it a dry exercise in futility. One must have FAITH! Without FAITH nothing is accomplished! Metta, James #69094 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 9:20 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q,. Rupas. Ch 1, no 2. Science. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: What are the four conditions for enlightenment? Association with > the right friend, hearing the Dhamma, considering it, and pa.tipatti > in accordance with the dhamma. Where did you get this definition? I have always read it to be "practice in accordance with the Dhamma". Metta, James #69095 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 9:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > That's a bit like saying that gays and straights can't have a > worthwhile conversation :-). I think there is much common ground > between people of all sorts of persuasions. Vive la difference! James: LOL! Of course gays and straights can have a worthwhile conversation- as long as it isn't about fashion sense! ;-)) Seriously, I am not talking about the types of people, I am talking about the content of the conversation. If I speak to you about Buddhism and you reply in existentialism, then we are speaking past each other. There is no clash, no contact. > > Thanks for the Nanavira link. I have read his Clearing the Path three > times already. One more time will definitely not hurt :-) James: Uh oh, you read it too much already! Start reading the suttas and forget about reading that again. > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > Metta, James #69096 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 6:17 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Identifying Views., only a few mins. dacostacharles Hi, It is 3 in the morning and I am tired but I will start the reply now. I don't see the connection fro what "I said before" to your first paragraph. You asked, "What is it you are cognizing, per se, through the supposed eye you say suggest sees? Where does the cognition take place? Why can a practioner of the Martial Arts perform their art without causing any damage to a hallucination, which is where I'm getting at: where does the cognition take place, what is actually cognized?" To answer the questions: sensory objects are what is cognized, and they are cognized in the mind. You also asked, "... how can an illusion be cognized as having substance since it is a known fact that in a capitalistic society the participants in a transaction must see that which is bought, sold, and that which is used as compenation in kind, "show me the money", etc.? Where does a hallucination exist?" I think I see now what you want: The answer is, "It is a great hallucination/illusion, so great that it has substance, its existence is nowhere. Its existence is relative. Its substance is relative. It is relative. What is sunyata? Charles DaCosta _____ #69097 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 10:32 pm Subject: Medin Poya Day! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Medin Poya day is the full-moon of March. This holy day celebrates that the Buddha visits parents home after his supreme Enlightenment, and ordains his son prince R Ä? hula , & half brother Nanda . This day is also called: The Sangha Day, since on this full-moon 1250 Arahats spontaneously met & assembled around the Buddha without any call. Buddha then spoke the famous Ovada Patimokkha core teaching! On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! The journey towards NibbÄ?na: The Deathless is started! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps also the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... If any wish an official recognition by the Bhikkhu-Sangha, they may simply forward the lines starting with "I hereby ..." signed with name, date, town, & country to me or join here . A public list of this new quite rapidly growing global web Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift, and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Medin Poya Day! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <.....> #69098 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group egberdina Hi James, On 03/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > James: LOL! Of course gays and straights can have a worthwhile > conversation- as long as it isn't about fashion sense! ;-)) > Seriously, I am not talking about the types of people, I am talking > about the content of the conversation. If I speak to you about > Buddhism and you reply in existentialism, then we are speaking past > each other. There is no clash, no contact. > OK, understood. So it would be useful to know what Buddhism is. And it is apparent from all our discussion, we all know what Buddhism is, it's just we as a group don't agree with each other about that :-). So, when communicating, we must go back to the things that we do all have in common. And that is what we experience, and not theories as to what causes all of that. (There are, of course, those who do not accept a shared reality, but we cannot take that seriously as long as they keep writing to others). I would suggest that at all levels of experience, whether in the most refined jhanas, or the day to day drudgery of eeking out a living, the characteristics of anatta, anicca and dukkha are observable. And what is observable does not require faith to observe it. So discussions about these characteristics should be problem free. The difficulty, then, becomes the Path. Is the aim of discussion to coax others on to our understanding of what the path is ? We are all on that Death Train you wrote about. What could possibly justify suggesting to other people that moving from one carriage, or swapping seats, would be of benefit to them? Only if the quality of the journey is altered, because the destination remains assured and unchangable. Unless there are realisable fruits here and now of what we propose other people do, we would be better advised to shut up. And there is only one thing that I can recommend to others in that respect. And that is to seek out a pleasant abiding in the here and now. And there's plenty about that in the Suttas which you heartily, and rightfully, recommend. Jhanas are not a theory, they happen. And when they don't, there are reasons and remedies for that. All perfectly set out in the Suttas. I would happily recommend to anyone a peaceful, blissful, wholesome way of being. > James: Uh oh, you read it too much already! Start reading the suttas > and forget about reading that again. > Kind Regards Herman #69099 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 11:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (08) hantun1 Dear Nina, > Nina: Here again it seems Susan thinks of having merit for oneself, like I said in the beginning. Also about selecting the receiver. Han: Your observation is correct. As I understand it (please correct me if I am wrong), to make a daana perfect (daana paarami) at least the following conditions are necessary. (1) motivation: To give away things for the benefit and happiness of others rather than for one’s own merit. To give away things in order to eliminate defilements, including attachment to possessions as well as clinging to naama dhammas and ruupa dhammas one takes for beings, people, and self. To give away things without expecting a reward, not even in a heavenly plane. (2) Recipients: One should not select the recipients, completely disregarding the qualities of the recipients. One should help whoever one can and whoever is in need. (3) Gifts: To give away the dearest and most difficult gifts. Bodhisattas give away their family members, their body-parts and even their life. If one looks at from the above conditions, Susan’s description of The Recipient of Gifts is short of the requirements for daana paarami. But in all fairness to Susan, I must say that she touched upon these conditions when she wrote under the sub-heading of The Perfection of Giving, which we will read later. I would appreciate if you kindly give your views again when we reach there. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > Here again it seems Susan thinks of having merit for > oneself, like I > said in the beginning. Also about selecting the > receiver. > Nina. #69100 From: melek cilingir Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 12:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism From an Islamic Point of View melekcilingir dear tg, i could not find anything relevant in the link. could you tell us what you find interesting and scary there? metta melek (http://video. google.com/ url?docid= 6317066305444907 870&esrc= sr1&ev=v& q=buddhist& vidurl=http: //video.google .com/videoplay? docid=6317066305 444907870& q=buddhist& usg=AL29H21p9X72 _pj3_1OmeG lG0gXZR3HTBA) Hi All This video is very interesting and scary too. Its seems about an hour long. I've just watched the first 10 minutes or so. I hope this link works. TG #69101 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 12:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: daana corner hantun1 Dear Mike, I appreciate very much your kind interest in the Daana Corner. Respectfully, Han #69102 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (02) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your kind contribution. I really appreciate it. Respectfully, Han #69103 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 12:52 am Subject: Daana Corner (09) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla. Susan wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: * The Factor of Volition * The Recipient of Gifts * The Objects to be Given * The Perfection of Giving * The Ultimate Goal of Giving The following is the continuation of The Recipient of Gifts. Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------ --------- --------- The story of Sivali in the Dhammapada Commentary [2] is an example of the great merit which even a small gift can yield when presented to the Sangha led by the Buddha. At the time of Vipassi Buddha, the citizens of a country were competing with their king to see who could make the greatest offering to the Buddha and Sangha. The citizens had obtained everything for their offering except fresh honey, and they sent out messengers, each with plenty of money, to buy the missing ingredient. One of these men met a villager who happened to be bringing a newly harvested honeycomb into the city for sale. The messenger was only able to buy it from the peasant when he had offered his entire allowance of a thousand pieces of money, which was far more than a single honeycomb was worth. The villager said: "Are you crazy?... This honey isn't worth a farthing but you offer me a thousand pieces of money for it. What is the explanation for this?" The other man told him that the honey was worth so much to him because it was the final item on the menu for the citizens' offering to the Buddha. The peasant spontaneously replied, "If that is the case, I will not sell it to you for a price; if I may receive the merit of the offering, I will give it to you." The citizens were impressed with the faith of this man who so readily gave up a windfall and enthusiastically agreed that he should receive the merit of the offering. Because of this simple gift at the time of the Vipassi Buddha, the villager was reborn numerous times in celestial planes and the became the prince who inherited the throne of Benares. In his final lifetime, he became the Elder Sivali and attained Arahatship as a disciple of the present Buddha. Even after that, his gift of the honeycomb continued to bear fruit. To honor the one who had made the sweet gift aeons before, the gods provided lodging and food for the Buddha and five hundred of his monks, including Sivali, when for several days they had been walking along a deserted road. Note [2] E.W. Burlingame, trans. Buddhist Legends (London: Pali Text Society, 1969), 2:212-16. ‘The Recipient of Gifts’ to be continued. Han #69104 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 1:04 am Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q,. Rupas. Ch 1, no 2. Science. nilovg Hi James, you are right, I should have been more complete. But to be exact, the Pali cannot be avoided. Association with the sappurisa, which stands for an enlightened person. Listening to the Dhamma, wise attention (yoniso manaasikaaro) and practice in accordance with the dhamma, dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. (A ii 245) 'Anu' is in accordance with. The second word dhamma refers to nibbaana. In order to attain it, there has to be pa.tipatti of dhamma. The meaning of the latter I elaborated on. Patti is: to reach or to attain. pa.ti has many meanings, it can mean: towards. Pa.tipatti: to follow a particular way. That is, (elaboration) to realize the three general characteristics of realities. I think that wise attention is very important. Nina. Op 3-mrt-2007, om 6:20 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > N: What are the four conditions for enlightenment? Association with > > the right friend, hearing the Dhamma, considering it, and pa.tipatti > > in accordance with the dhamma. > > Where did you get this definition? I have always read it to > be "practice in accordance with the Dhamma". #69105 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (08) egberdina Hi Han, I'm glad your computer is fixed. It won't last, you know :-) On 03/03/07, han tun wrote: > Dear Nina, > > (3) Gifts: > To give away the dearest and most difficult gifts. > Bodhisattas give away their family members, their > body-parts and even their life. > This one made me smile. One really shouldn't give away what isn't theirs to give. Wives and children just are not goods and chattels to be owned and given away. But I accept there were times when this is how men thought. Come to think of it, there are places where men still think they can own another person. I sincerely hope that there is not considered to be merit in giving away what is not to be taken. Kind Regards Herman #69106 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 1:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > OK, understood. So it would be useful to know what Buddhism is. And it > is apparent from all our discussion, we all know what Buddhism is, > it's just we as a group don't agree with each other about that :-). James: Yes, we don't have agreement in this group about what constitutes Buddhism. Often times I will write to a member, especially Nina, and she will quote K. Sujin as support for her position. I will reply that what KS is teaching isn't Buddhism...blah, blah, blah. But at least we are on the same page. If I write to you about Buddhism and you reply with quotes and ideas from an existential philosopher, without any link to Buddhism provided, then that ends the communication. Nothing more I could say unless I just really have the craving to argue! ;-)) > So, when communicating, we must go back to the things that we do all > have in common. And that is what we experience, and not theories as to > what causes all of that. (There are, of course, those who do not > accept a shared reality, but we cannot take that seriously as long as > they keep writing to others). James: Yes, I think I know what you are saying. The people in this group do exist; and yet they don't exist as permanent entities. We, of course, argue that in this group so much that we should just all keep folders of canned responses. ;-)) > > I would suggest that at all levels of experience, whether in the most > refined jhanas, or the day to day drudgery of eeking out a living, the > characteristics of anatta, anicca and dukkha are observable. James: Yes And what > is observable does not require faith to observe it. James: Not true. There must be faith that it is observable before it is observed. So discussions > about these characteristics should be problem free. James: LOL! Yeah right! Dream on! ;-)) > > The difficulty, then, becomes the Path. Is the aim of discussion to > coax others on to our understanding of what the path is ? James: Sure, why not? We are all > on that Death Train you wrote about. James: I wrote about waiting for the Death Train, but same idea. What could possibly justify > suggesting to other people that moving from one carriage, or swapping > seats, would be of benefit to them? Only if the quality of the journey > is altered, because the destination remains assured and unchangable. James: The destination isn't assured and unchangable. There is the deathless state, nibbana. > Unless there are realisable fruits here and now of what we propose > other people do, we would be better advised to shut up. And there is > only one thing that I can recommend to others in that respect. And > that is to seek out a pleasant abiding in the here and now. James: Well, I recommend more than that to others. I recommend the entire Noble Eightfold Path. And > there's plenty about that in the Suttas which you heartily, and > rightfully, recommend. Jhanas are not a theory, they happen. And when > they don't, there are reasons and remedies for that. All perfectly set > out in the Suttas. I would happily recommend to anyone a peaceful, > blissful, wholesome way of being. James: Yes, you can't go wrong with cultivating the jhanas. > > > > James: Uh oh, you read it too much already! Start reading the suttas > > and forget about reading that again. > > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > Metta, James #69107 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 1:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (08) hantun1 Dear Herman, I just got back my computer, but I lost all my stored information. It is still unreliable. As you said, I know it won't last. :-) Herman: This one made me smile. One really shouldn't give away what isn't theirs to give. Wives and children just are not goods and chattels to be owned and given away. But I accept there were times when this is how men thought. Come to think of it, there are places where men still think they can own another person. I sincerely hope that there is not considered to be merit in giving away what is not to be taken. Han: You are absolutely right. The story of Prince Vessantara, the Buddhisatta, was in my mind when I wrote it. But as I said I will be happy to be corrected by anyone who thinks I am wrong. Respectfully, Han #69108 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (08) rjkjp1 Dear Herman Here is the story of Vessantara. The Bodhisatta gave awaya evenb his children and Wife- not becuase he didn't want them but because he would willingly give anything of value. http://ignca.nic.in/jatak038.htm Later the family was reunited . "Now, it was the time for Sakka to reveal his identity. He gave Maddi back to Vessantara. Furthermore, he offered eight boons to the great donor, which included the reunion of his family; his recall to the father's kingdom; and his ability to benefaction. In the meanwhile, Jujaka had traveled sixty leagues and having lost his way he reached Jetuttara, though he intended to reach Kalinga. His rugged appearance and harsh behaviour with the two delicate children attracted the royal guards, who brought him before the king. King Sanjaya, when saw his grand-children and learnt their story he bought them back from the cruel brahmin in lieu of handsome gifts and seven-storeyed palace. But Jujaka could hardly enjoy those riches as he died of over-eating in a few days. The king along with Phusati, Jali and his army then marched to Vankagiri to bring back his son and the daughter-in-law. "" Robert #69109 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (08) egberdina Dear RobertK, On 03/03/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > Dear Herman > Here is the story of Vessantara. The Bodhisatta gave awaya evenb his > children and Wife- not becuase he didn't want them but because he > would willingly give anything of value. > Thank you for the item you linked. I was quite sick in the stomach on reading it. Kind Regards Herman #69110 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 3:10 am Subject: New Pic! sarahprocter... Hi James & all, Thanks for putting the very nice pic of you and Sebastien and the Pig in the 'Significant Others' photo album - quite a mixed collection of S.O's for company there! If anyone else has a family/partner/good friend/teacher pic they'd like to add to that album, pls do! ...and if you still haven't posted a pic to the member album, pls go ahead! If you need technical assistance, James is always happy to help, even touching up, if self-conscious about those grey hairs;-). Does Sebastien have any interest in Buddhism as yet? Say 'hi' to him from us! Metta, Sarah ===== #69111 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 6:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing sukinderpal Hi Herman, ======================== > > I believe the tendency to think in terms of 'determinism' and > > controlling/free will/choice is there in all of us, having yet to experience > > the vipassana nanas. So in fact you may be justified in reading statements > > by some of us as inclining to determinism, but then again, that may be > > because on the other hand you are coming from the side of control/free will? > > Actually both these positions are quite obviously wrong, given just a little > > reflection. But they arise with "self-view" and therefore logic and > > reasoning is not enough to be done away with them. Herman: > Self-view, like anything else, is conditioned. So is the view that > self-view should be eradicated. S> Yes. ======================== Herman: > All conditioned phenomena are > conditioned. But what does this mean? To one who has evolved a > deterministic outlook like you, conditionality implies that all events > are caused, and that technically it would be possible to come to know > these causes. S> I wouldn't use the term "caused" but, "conditioned". `Cause' could limit one's consideration to the past, forgetting about present conditions. So it appears that up to this point we agree, no? To me conditions from the past could not even have effect in this moment, were a host of many other conditions not in place. For example, even kamma resultants arise not in some pre-deterministic way; many present conditions are needed for any kamma to bear fruit. So no, I don't think it is possible or even desirable to link present realities to past causes alone. ========================== Herman: > To one who has evolved a freewill perspective like me, > conditionality does not imply that all events are caused, it implies > that caused events are caused, but there are also uncaused, > spontaneous events. Needless to say, this means that it is not > possible to be certain about the past, present or future. S> Again, I would stick to using `conditions'. So whatever you have in mind when you think of "spontaneous events", I think it as involving conditioned realities arising and falling away. =========================== > > So what do I mean when I say, "There is no control .."? > > Herman: > You have here proceeded to give me your theory of mental causation, > which I thank you for. The main feature as I see it is that it is a > deterministic theory, all events are explainable. S> `Explainable' by virtue of realities having same characteristic, function and proximate cause. Thus for example, all occurrences of `lobha' since the beginningless samsara are said to be same in this regard. The only thing `determined' is that all instances of lobha had and will have the same characteristic, function and proximate cause, and of course too, that they all are anicca, dukkha and anatta. What else was the Buddha's enlightenment all about if not to discover this? ============================= Herman: > Not only that, all events should be seen in the light of an > overriding view or purpose, which you call understanding. > But surely this theory of yours, and the > overriding purpose in having it, is also conditioned? And in it's > absence, it cannot be made to appear, can it? S> Yes, `view' is conditioned and different views can arise at different times. Even right view arises and falls away without control. ============================== > > This is why it is *never* about 'doing' anything no matter how 'noble', but > > about understanding. The knowledge about conditionality must be applied to > > this very moment of seeing, hearing, thinking and so on. If not, then it > > shall remain only 'theory' used only when convenient. Herman: > Surely, whether knowledge of conditionality is applied or not, is > itself conditioned? S> Yes. ============================== > > But then I have read you elsewhere as saying that a moment of "mindfulness" > > is 'being in control' implying that being "unmindful" is 'out of control'. I > > take it that you refer to mindfulness of conventional reality and any > > intentions, attachments, feelings etc. that arises in the process..? Herman: > For me the critical thing that defines a moment of mindfulness is the > realisation that whatever is happening or not happening, does not have > to be / is not causally determined. S> If you see `conditionality' in terms of situations involving self and other, then it is understandable that any interpretation will be in accordance to an underlying view. And of this, there is no awareness and understanding. =============================== Herman: > A mindful moment is a free moment, > in which current action can be halted, or new action initiated. S> No need to halt anything, since everything arises and falls away completely in an instant, and it already has. It is because we don't in fact understand this, that the present moment is being interpreted as something that lasts, upon which we can and must then act. This gives rise to the illusion of control and `being free'. ============================== Herman: > Needless to say, it is not an agent, a self, that suspends or > initiates action, but whatever path is taken, the taking of that path > is not causally determined. It is free. S> Free in the sense of *not* being causally determined, yes. But is this all you are trying to prove? I think that in spite of what you say here, you still believe in an agent. =============================== > > The very desire to observe/note/guard the sense being tanha, is papanca. The > > sense of 'self' observing, is mana. The belief that there are 'objects' > > which a 'I' can give attention to, is ditthi papanca. Being driven by avijja > > and tanha to act through speech and body, of which there is no so called > > mindfulness may not be as bad as being driven by ignorance, craving and > > self-view to "sit still" (cross legged or otherwise) and observe. What kind > > of sanna is at work when one is conscious of sitting still? Herman: > When one is mindful of sitting still, or doing anything else for that > matter, there is the option of then doing or not doing whatever comes > to mind. When one is not mindful of sitting still, or anything else, > whatever happens happens. S> "What comes to mind", is this conditioned? Doing or not doing either way, are not these a matter of conditions? When `not mindful', whatever is done or not done, do these not involve `intention' and are these not also conditioned? I think this is an example of what I mean in part, by `illusion of result'. The difference between your so called being `mindful' and `not mindful', has given rise to this idea that in one there is control, and in the other, not. ================================ > > This is why it is so important to listen, consider and straighten one's > > views at the intellectual level. Because if the understanding is wrong, then > > wrong practice invariably follows. Herman: > Listen to what, might I ask? Surely whatever is listened to is > conditioned? Surely, there can be no selecting of what or whom one > listens to? S> Yes, it is all about conditions. Any `view' taught by any teacher will find an audience in me as long as any opposing view does not arise or has little appeal. We find what we seek. If I or anyone else happen to express `right view', this could be a condition for others to seek out more of the same after having appreciated what they just heard. =============================== Herman: > Sure. I'd like to ask you the following. Notions of wrong > understanding and right understanding are conditioned. And they are > evaluated in terms of goals that are also conceived through > conditions. But what do you imagine to be the consequences of right > understanding should this happen to evolve? S> Enlightenment. Eradication of kilesas. No more perversion of view, perception and consciousness. No more helplessly and senselessly going around in circles experiencing dukkha. But I think you are asking something else? Metta, Sukin. #69112 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! nilovg Hi Howard, here we come to the essence of satipatthaana which can be developed naturally, and enlightenment which can be attained naturally, in the middle of playing with your grandchild. Think of the Sisiters! Nobody could notice it, when you are mindful of realities just for a few moments, and then there is bound to be forgetfulness. But it *can* be developed! Just a moment and this can be accumulated so that it becomes a new habit. Is there no seeing, when looking at Sophie, or rupas which are hardness or pressure when talking to her and moving the jaws? That can come in between paying attention to her and thinking of her, very quickly, unexpectantly. How does that interfere? Cittas are sooo fast. Nina. Op 3-mrt-2007, om 1:06 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Perhaps there's something for you to consider here as you play with > little > Sophie! > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nah, couldn't do that - then I wouldn't be paying attention to the > present moment! ;-)) #69113 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 7:41 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 137 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 137. Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga deals with akusala kamma that produces rebirth-consciousness in an unhappy plane. In that case the last javanacittas before the dying-consciousness are akusala cittas and they experience an unpleasant object. In this section the object is a vision of the future destiny, and this is experienced through the mind-door. ------------- Text Vis.137: In another's case, owing to kamma of the kind already described, there comes into focus at the mind door at the time of death the sign of the unhappy destinies with the appearance of fires and flames, etc., in the hells, and so on.[23] ------ N: The Tiika explains that the kamma already described is evil kamma. Note 23, taken from the Tiika: "With the appearance of fire and flames, etc., in the hells" is said owing to likeness of that; appearance of fire and hell does not itself come into focus for him then. After the expression 'fire and flames', the word etc., ‘aadi’ is elaborated on by the Tiika. Meant is the ‘sword forest’ which is located in a hell plane. As to ‘the hells and so on’, the Tiika explains that included are ghosts and animals. The plane of ghosts and the animal world are other unhappy destinies. As to the expression, ‘ there comes into focus at the mind door, the Tiika explains that, driven by the force of kamma colour becomes an object experienced through the mind-door for someone who as it were has a dreamlike vision, or who has as it were the ‘divine eye’. In a subcommentary to the Netti (the Guide, p. 93 on the freedom of the arahat who does not have clinging to rebirth) an explanation is given about this object : < Attachment to existence appears at the moment that is close to dying. At that moment the citta takes as object kamma, a sign of kamma or a sign of destinty. Then attachment arises to the sign he sees. Even the person who will be reborn in a hell plane sees flames just as if it is light which is appealing. Therefore he rejoices in the sign which was just mentioned, and thus, he will be reborn into the life that is in accordance with his kamma. The first cittas arising in a process of each life are cittas which are attached to life. Five cittas rooted in lobha arise in a mind-door process and then they are followed by bhavangacittas.> Thus, the rebirth-consciousness in a new life is followed by bhavangacittas and then the first cittas arising in a process are cittas which are attached to life. The first cittas arising in a process for every living being are lobha-muulacittas. Even when one has an unhappy rebirth, one is still attached to life. ------------- Text Vis.: So when the life continuum has twice arisen and ceased, three sorts of cognitive-series consciousness arise contingent upon that object, namely, the one adverting, impulsions numbering five because of the slowing down due to the nearness of death, and two registrations. After that, one death consciousness arises making life- continuum's objective field its object. -------- N: During the last process of cittas before dying, the adverting- consciousness adverts to the object, in this case, through the mind- door, and then five javanacittas arise which are in this case akusala cittas. These are followed by two tadaaramma.nacittas, retention or registration, which are vipaakacittas. These are followed by the dying-consciousness which has a the same object as the bhavangacittas of the life that is about to end. --------- Text Vis.: At this point eleven consciousnesses have elapsed. Then, having that same object, which has a life span of the remaining five conscious moments, his rebirth-linking consciousness arises. This is the kind of rebirth-linking that has a 'present' object next to death with a 'past' object. --------------------------- N: The lifespan of that object is five more moments of citta. Therefore, it is said that the object of the rebirth-consciousness has a present object. It is to be remembered that the rebirth- consciousness does not experience the object through any doorway. It is door-freed and process-freed. Conclusion: This shows us that the dying-consciousness is immediately followed by the rebirth-consciousness of the next life. If someone experiences an object through one of the six doors, in this case the mind-door, the dying-consciousness may suddenly arise, against expectation. Just as at this moment one citta is succeeded immediately by a following citta, the dying-consciousness is succeeded immediately by the rebirth-consciousness of the next life and this may experience a present object. This reminds us that death can come any time, and that we should not be negligent of developing right understanding of the reality appearing at this moment. ******* Nina. #69114 From: "kanchaa" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 8:07 am Subject: Re: Where does Anger start from? kanchuu2003 Dear all, James! I usually meditate for an hour a day. What I do is start with breathing for 10-15mins and then practice Vipassana for 40 mins... Then I practice Metta... Since I dont have a good memory, how I do is: May i be free from harm and danger, May I be free from mental suffering, May I be free from Physical Suffering, May I take care of myself properly.. May Every Living in this World be free from Harm and Danger. May Every Living in this world be free from mental suffering. May Every Living in this world be free from Physical Suffering.. May Every Living in this world take care of themselves properly.. I repeat the above twice and for the last May we all be free from harm and danger... ... ...... ..... we all take care of ourselves properly. releasin it to all direction... And then I take the Saran of Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.. Then I end my meditation with "Bhawatu Sabha Managala".. Usually when I am disturber, upset then I only give Metta to myself.. I believe when I am disturbed, I dont want to share my disturbed energy to the world... I have usually my mind working toooo much during meditation... I am ignoring such at the moment... Hope that it will turn better.. Sincerely, Nitesh #69115 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 3:45 am Subject: Buddhism from a Islamic point of View. Video Link -- (Second Try) TGrand458@... _Buddhism and GOD / Do Buddhist believe in a Creator? How old is this Religion?_ (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6317066305444907870&q=buddhist) #69116 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism From an Islamic Point of View TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/3/2007 1:31:41 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, melekcilingir@... writes: dear tg, i could not find anything relevant in the link. could you tell us what you find interesting and scary there? metta melek Hi Melek I'll try again with another link that I think should work. I CCed the e-mail to my e-mail address and the link I sent to DSG worked on mine, but anyway I'll try again. It contains a one hour video that, in terms of propaganda, treats Buddhism the same way the Nazis treated the Jews. Its a slick/expensive video, produced by Islamic adherents, that is intentionally trying to destroy any credibility of Buddhism has in the eyes of the world. TG #69117 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 11:09 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (38) nichiconn Dear Sisters Enthusiasts, Now we begin Pa~ncakanipaato / The Section of Groups of Five [Verses] with A~n~nataraatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa / The commentary on the verses of a certain therii. Pa~ncakanipaate pa.n.naviisati vassaaniiti-aadikaa a~n~nataraaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii imasmi.m buddhuppaade devadahanagare mahaapajaapatigotamiyaa dhaatii hutvaa va.d.dhesi. Naamagottato pana apa~n~naataa ahosi. In the section of groups of five verses, the verses beginning It is twenty-five years since I went forth are a certain therii's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. In this Buddha era, she became Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii's nurse and served her, but her ancestry was not known. Saa mahaapajaapatigotamiyaa pabbajitakaale sayampi pabbajitvaa pa~ncaviisati sa.mvaccharaani kaamaraagena upaddutaa accharaasa"nghaatamattampi kaala.m cittekaggata.m alabhantii baahaa paggayha kandamaanaa dhammadinnaatheriyaa santike dhamma.m sutvaa kaamehi vinivattitamaanasaa kamma.t.thaana.m gahetvaa bhaavanamanuya~njantii na cirasseva cha.labhi~n~naa hutvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa udaanavasena- 67. "Pa.n.naviisati vassaani, yato pabbajitaa aha.m; naaccharaasa"nghaatamattampi, cittassuupasamajjhaga.m. 68. "Aladdhaa cetaso santi.m, kaamaraagenavassutaa; baahaa paggayha kandantii, vihaara.m paavisi.m aha.m. 69. "Saa bhikkhuni.m upaagacchi.m, yaa me saddhaayikaa ahu; saa me dhammamadesesi, khandhaayatanadhaatuyo. 70. "Tassaa dhamma.m su.nitvaana, ekamante upaavisi.m; pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m. 71. "Cetoparicca~naa.na~nca sotadhaatu visodhitaa; iddhiipi me sacchikataa, patto me aasavakkhayo; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa, kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. At the time of Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii's going forth, she went forth herself. For twenty-five years she was assailed by the desire for sensual pleasures. Indeed, she did not obtain one-pointedness of mind for the duration of a snap of the fingers. She cried out, holding her arms. She heard the Doctrine in the presence of Therii Dhammadinaa, and turned her mind away from sensual pleasures. She took a subject of meditation, developed it diligently, and after a very short time she possessed the six direct knowledges. Considering her won achievement, she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: 67. It is twenty-five years since I went forth. Not even for the duration of a snap of the fingers have I obtained stilling of the mind. 68. Not obtaining peace of mind, drenched with desire for sensual pleasures, holding out my arms, crying out, I entered the monastery. 69. I went up to a bhikkhuni who was fit to be trusted by me. She taught me the Doctrine, the aggregates, the sense bases, and the elements. 70-71. I heard the Doctrine from her and sat down on one side. I know that I have lived before. I have purified the divine eye, and there is knowledge of the state of mind of others. I have purified the ear element. I have realized supernormal power too. I have attained the annihilation of the taints. I have realized these six direct knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. RD: ....she heard Dhammadinnaa preaching the Norm. Then, with her mind diverted from the senses, she fell to practising meditative exercises, and in no long time acquired the Six Powers of Intuition. *190 And, reflecting on her attainment, she exulted thus: For five-and-twenty years since I came forth, Not for one moment could my heart attain The blessedness of calm serenity. (67) No peace of mind I found. My every thought Was soaked in the fell drug of sense-desire. *191 With outstretched arms and shedding futile tears I gat me, wretched woman, to my cell. (68) Then She to this poor Bhikkhunii drew near, Who was my foster-mother in the faith. She taught to me the Norm, wherein I learnt The factors, organs, bases of this self, Impermanent compound. *192 Hearing her words, (69) Beside her I sat down to meditate. And now I know the days of the long past, And clearly shines the Eye Celestial, (70) I know the thoughts of other minds, and hear With sublimated sense the sound of things Ineffable. *193 The mystic potencies I exercise; and all the deadly Drugs That poisoned every thought are purged away. A living truth for me this Sixfold Lore, And the commandment of the Lord is done. (71) *190 Cha.labhi~n~naa. Abhi~n~naa in the previous Psalm is rendered 'mystic lore profound.' The Six, otherwise defined as pa~n~naa (Dialogues of the Buddha, i., p. 57) and as vijjaa (ibid., p. 124), are Iddhi, the Purified Hearing, knowledge of the thoughts of others, memory of former lives, the evolution of the lives of other beings, the extinction of the AAsavas (see Vibhanga, 334)**. The last was virtually identical with Arahantship. *191 Lit. only, 'soaked with the passion of sense desires,' and explained as one whose mind was wetted by an exceedingly strong inclination, by an abundance of passionate desire for all the pleasures attainable through the senses. The metaphor of 'soaking' (avassutaa) is nearly akin to that in the cardinal defects called AAsavas, one of which is precisely the predilection described above, and the extinction of which are named as the sixth abhi~n~naa in the following verses. *192 The last five words are only implicit in the Pali. Cf. Ps. xxx. 43. Compare Dhammadinnaa's help with that given by Pa.taacaaraa, Ps. xxx. *193 See Dialogues of the Buddha, i., p. 89. **{Book of Analysis 334: What states are good? At the time when there arises good consciousness characteristic of the plane of desire accompanied by mental pleasure, associated with knowledge, having visible object :P: ideational object or is concerned with whatever (object; at that time because of ignorance there is activity; because of activity there is consciousness; because of consciousness there is mind; because of mind there is the sixth base; because of the sixth base there is contact; because of contact there is feeling; because of feeling there is faith; because of faith there is decision; because of decision there is becoming; because of becoming there is birth; because of birth there is ageing and death. Thus is the arising of this whole mass of suffering. P = Intermediate sense objects.} Tattha naaccharaasa"nghaatamattampiiti accharaagha.titamattampi kha.na.m a"ngulipho.tanamattampi kaalanti attho. Cittassuupasamajjhaganti cittassa upasama.m cittekagga.m na ajjhaganti yojanaa, na pa.tilabhinti attho. 67. There, not even for the duration of a snap of the fingers (naaccharaa-sa"nghaata-mattam) means: like the moment connected with snapping the fingers (accharaa-gha.tita-mattam), like the time connected with cracking the fingers (a"nguli-pho.tana-mattam). That is the meaning. Have I obtained (ajjhaga.m) stilling (uupasam') of the mind (cittass') means: stilling (upasama.m) of the mind (cittassa), a single-pointed mind (cittakagga.m) I have not obtained (na ajjhaga.m). That is the connection. The meaning is: I did not gain [it] (na pa.tilabhi.m). Kaamaraagenavassutaati kaamagu.nasa"nkhaatesu vatthukaamesu da.lhataraabhinivesitaaya bahalena chandaraagena tintacittaa. 68. Drenched with desire for sensual pleasures means: her mind is abundantly moistened with passion and desire because she is firmly inclined to the desire for possessions called the [five] cords of sensual pleasures. Bhikkhuninti dhammadinnattheri.m sandhaaya vadati. 69. Bhikkhunii means: she says this with reference to Theri Dhammadinnaa. Cetoparicca~naa.na~ncaati cetopariya~naa.na~nca visodhitanti sambandho, adhigatanti attho. Sesa.m vuttanayameva. 71. And there is knowledge of the state of mind of others (ceto-paricca-~naa.na~n ca) means: and there is knowledge of penetration of minds (ceto-payiya-~naa.na~n ca), the connection [should be made to] "has been purified" (visodhitan ti). She attained [this]. That is the meaning. The meaning of the rest has been explained. A~n~nataraatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Here ends the commentary on the verses by a certain therii. peace, connie #69118 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 11:12 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 1, no 6 nilovg Dear friends, The element of wind or motion arises with all kinds of materiality, both of the body and outside the body. There is also motion with dead matter, such as a pot. It performs its function so that the pot holds its shape and does not collapse. Sĺriputta explained about the internal element of motion: ... And what, your reverences, is the internal element of motion? Whatever is motion, wind, is internal, referable to an individual and derived therefrom, such as winds going upwards, winds going downwards, winds in the abdomen, winds in the belly, winds that shoot across the several limbs, in-breathing, out-breathing, or whatever other thing is motion, wind, is internal.... We may notice pressure inside the body. When its characteristic appears it can be known as only a rúpa that is conditioned. As to the words of the sutta, “winds that shoot across the several limbs”, the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 37) explains that these are: “winds (forces) that produce flexing, extending, etc., and are distributed over the limbs and the whole body by means of the network of veins (nerves)”. The element of wind plays its specific role in the strengthening of the body so that it does not collapse, and assumes different postures; it is a condition for the stretching and bending of the limbs. While we are bending or stretching our arms and legs the element of wind may appear as motion or pressure. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 92): The air element that courses through all the limbs and has the characteristic of moving and distending, being founded upon earth, held together by water, and maintained by fire, distends this body. And this body, being distended by the latter kind of air, does not collapse, but stands erect, and being propelled by the other (motile) air, it shows intimation, and it flexes and extends and it wriggles the hands and feet, doing so in the postures comprising walking, standing, sitting and lying down. So this mechanism of elements carries on like a magic trick, deceiving foolish people with the male and female sex and so on. We are deceived and infatuated by the outward appearance of a man or a woman and we forget that this body is a “mechanism of elements” and that it flexes and wriggles hands and feet because of conditions. ****** Nina. #69119 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 9, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin said: "One has to understand the very subtle desire, when one is waiting for the arising of awareness in the future. Awareness can arise now. If there is understanding now it can be accumulated. One has to notice desire, whether it is there. Instead of having desire there can be awareness and right understanding even now. That is the meaning of the 'Middle Way'. Understanding realities with awareness, that is the moment of progress. You think that you can get rid of desire, somewhere, at some time, but what about this moment? There is lobha if there is no understanding. Desire is not self, it is a reality. If you don't understand it, you will not get rid of it. When you look at the newspaper you can develop understanding about lobha which is conditioned. You cannot do anything about it, but there can be understanding of lobha as a conditioned reality." Different people will react differently when they hear, "you cannot do anything about it", it all depends on the understanding of the listener. It is right understanding when we realize that we cannot do anything about the realities which arise because of their own conditions. In this way we shall come to understand that they are beyond control, anattĺ. There is wrong understanding if one believes that it is senseless to develop kusala and right understanding since one cannot do anything about one's defilements. When people speak harsh words to us it is beneficial to realize that we cannot do anything about the hearing, since it is conditioned already. Hearing is vipĺka, the result of kamma. No self hears, it is only a type of nĺma, and no self gets hurt by harsh words. When we consider this more deeply and there can be awareness of nĺma and rúpa, we shall be less inclined to retort unpleasant words. We shall have more understanding of the truth that there is no self. Sarah said that it was a relief to know that we do not have to do anything special for the development of understanding, such as always reading Dhamma books or going to a center. Khun Sujin replied: "The idea of self always pushes one this or that way. The development of understanding just follows all realities. Then lobha cannot push you to cover up the realities which have arisen now because of conditions. Just understand any reality which is conditioned. Seeing now is conditioned and therefore it arises, it sees. Develop understanding of the reality which is already conditioned." ******** Nina. #69120 From: melek cilingir Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism From an Islamic Point of View melekcilingir hi tg, the link you have encountered belongs to one of the biggest charlatan who calls himself messiah. he does not use his real name, he (actually adnan oktar) has been convicted several times here in turkey (blackmailing, sectarianism, sexual abusing etc.) he is choosing the top models, gilded youth for his sect. his books and researchs(!) have nothing to do with islam actually. there is nothing to fear. with metta melek #69121 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 11:45 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.nimitta. nilovg Dear Scott, Always agood subject to discuss. I never get tired of it because it helps me to discuss this subject. I need to consider so much, it never is enough. -------- ----------- N: (remark now:) this is important. When touching, we just think: hardness, and it seems on one spot. But the reality is different! Already many rupas are arising and falling away. ---------- Sujin: We do not mind even if a nimitta is experienced, what is there? Behind the nimitta? If there is no rupa can there be a nimitta of anything right now? Pa~n~naa has to grow at this very moment. ----------- N: (remark now): what a reminder! It is pa~n~naa that does grow, even we understand only a tiny bit now! It gives us confidence. ---------- Sujin: Is it right or wrong to see someone or it is just visible object which is seen? Don't think of nimitta, just right now. ----------------------------------------------- Scott: To take a stab at it, I'd say that the object of awareness is nimitta because ruupa continues to arise and fall away past the moment at which the object is cognised and, even so, it is still possible to become aware of the characteristic of the given ruupa nonetheless. --------- N: Yes, there can be awareness of characteristics. Think of the example of hardness; in fact there are so many hardnesses arising and falling away. We do not try to catch them. But sure, there is a characteristic of hardness and that can be studied with awareness. Khun Sujin also said : -------- Scott: Can you please say what you mean when you use 'awareness', and 'experience' in the above? ------ N: You refer to< we experience only the nimitta. But all the . We cognize the nimitta. Such as experiencing the nimitta of visible object. Awareness: mindfulness of a characteristic that appears. Nina. #69122 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (08) nilovg Dear Han, Yes, you gave a very good summary. We wait for Susan's part on the parami of giving. Nina. Op 3-mrt-2007, om 8:26 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > (1) motivation: > To give away things for the benefit and happiness of > others rather than for one’s own merit. > To give away things in order to eliminate defilements, > including attachment to possessions as well as > clinging to naama dhammas and ruupa dhammas one takes > for beings, people, and self. #69123 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism From an Islamic Point of View TGrand458@... Hi Melek Thanks for the info Melek. Hopefully little harm will come of it. Problem is though, if widespread, whether charlatan or not, the mis-information will make an impact. That's how propaganda works. TG #69124 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 1:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 upasaka_howard Hi, Tg (and Nina) - Hi Nina Just a few short things... In a message dated 3/2/2007 2:08:22 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: TG: Kamma is not a "something" that produces eye sense either. It is conditions that generate what arises and it is conditions that disintegrate the same. Kamma is one of many conditions necessary for eye sense. Eye sense varies IN ACCORDANCE to conditions. I do not consider it to be "popping on and off." ------- N: Yes, this is understandable. That is because you do not see impermanence as momentary. -------- TG: I see impermanence as continuous. I do not see "dhammas" arising and immediately ceasing, because I do not see anything as having "its own essence" whereby it can be distinguish "as its own thing" apart from any other phenomena. That latter sort of "identification process" creates "the delusion of entities" when in fact there is no such thing. The study of "elements" is for the purpose of "turning away" from them, not for the purpose of "establishing" them. ---------------------------------- Howard: I like the foregoing, TG, and most especially the last sentence, which I think is important and memorable. ---------------------------------- “Form is like a lump of foam, Feeling like a water bubble; Perception is like a mirage, Volitions like a plantain trunk (coreless), And consciousness like an illusion, (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 1, pg. 952 – 953) -------- T.G.: TG: I seem to recall in either the Visuddhimagga or Manual of Abhidhamma that plants are mentioned as produced by temperature. Are non-living forms, such as rocks, included as well? I don't remember that. I'm just interested for accuracy sake. The entire idea though, of being solely produced by temperature, is bordering on the ludicrous. --------- N: Plants are also non-living, they do not have jivitindriya ruupa. They have no citta, commit no kamma. The answer is: yes, the rupas we call rock are not produced by kamma, citta, or nutrition, thus by the element of heat. The smallest unit of rupa consists of eight rupas, including the four great element and one among these is the Element of fire, heat. That produces other rupas. TG: Interesting that you think plants are not living. ------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly different from the consensus view, in any case. :-) ------------------------------------- I guess we would have a totally different idea of what nutrition means too. Apparently, from your definition, you feel only life stemming from delusion is life...i.e., sentient beings. You may be one of a very few people in the world who don't consider plants life though. That could be good, or bad. Personally, I'll stick to eating plants, rocks are just too crunchy. ;-) As for your last sentence...how can you possibly know that??? I mean, anyone can repeat what's in a book, but how do YOU know that??? Your statements are delivered as CLAIMS as to what's real. You do not say -- the books say this. And you do not say -- I believe it works this way. You just flat out say --- this is the way it is. How do you know this knowledge? If you have developed direct knowledge into -- "the element of fire produces other rupas" that's great. I'd be interested in your methods. Or if you have observed this directly through the senses... that's great. I'd be interested in those methods. Is there a Sutta source? If so I'd be interested in that as well. ******* Nina. TG =================================== With metta, Howard #69125 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 2:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.nimitta. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your ongoing discussion. I'm learning a lot in considering these things: N: "Always a good subject to discuss. I never get tired of it because it helps me to discuss this subject. I need to consider so much, it never is enough." Scott: Yes. ------- [Sujin: Seeing sees, and that is one moment, hearing hears and that is one moment, thinking thinks, and that is one moment. If there is no understanding of each moment of reality as it is, there is an idea of something lasting. That is nimitta. There is the nimitta of visible object that has fallen away. Nina: How can we be aware of realities when there are only nimttas? Sujin: It is not a matter of someone who can be aware, there can be the development of understanding.] ------- N: my remark now: how good, there is always someone who wants to be aware. --------- Scott: This is true. I thought I'd insert two definitions (PTS PED), since I found myself considering both as I read the above: Pa~n~natti: "...making known, manifestation, description, name, idea, notion, concept..." Nimitta: "...outward appearance, mark, characteristic, attribute, phenomenon (opp. essence)..." Scott: Clearly nimitta is not concept. Concept is naama. Do you consider ruupa-nimitta (if one can put it this way) to be something that is neither ruupa nor pa~n~natti - some sort of intermediate thing? I'd guess that this can't really be so, if one follows the adage that if it is not paramattha dhamma then it is pa~n~natti. The above noted definition of nimitta shows what Kh. Sujin asserts - that it remains true to the characteristic of the object yet is not the object itself, for reasons already discussed. See below, from the passage you provided: Sujin: "...At the moment of seeing there is the nimitta of visible object. At the moment of experiencing hardness there is the nimitta of hardness, so long as it not yet experienced as just a reality. Even right now, when touching, it seems that only one rupa of hardness appears, but there are many moments of hardness arising and falling away." Scott: See, here, how she states that nimitta is that which is experienced when a reality is not. If it is not concept, which it appears not to be, then what is it? This is interesting to consider. Could you please let me know what you think might be meant, in this context, when the word 'experience' is used? Is there a precise Paa.li term? N: "Yes, there can be awareness of characteristics. Think of the example of hardness; in fact there are so many hardnesses arising and falling away. We do not try to catch them. But sure, there is a characteristic of hardness and that can be studied with awareness. Khun Sujin also said :" Scott: This I've come to, that is, that it is unnecessary to attempt to 'catch' or 'label' experience. No need. No one experiences and to keep labelling is just like practising as there was someone who practises. N: "You refer to< we experience only the nimitta. But all the . We cognize the nimitta. Such as experiencing the nimitta of visible object. Awareness: mindfulness of a characteristic that appears." So awareness=sati. Thanks. I appreciate our consideration of this, thanks again. Sincerely, Scott. #69126 From: "colette" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 12:50 pm Subject: "Dogs Of War" Pink Floyd ksheri3 Dear Charles, Same thing, I'll try to get as much in as possible, but it's not past the city's library time so it's simply the afternoon here. ... > I don't see the connection fro what "I said before" to your first paragraph. > > > > You asked, "What is it you are cognizing, per se, through the supposed eye > you > say suggest sees? Where does the cognition take place? Why can a practioner > of the Martial Arts perform their art without causing any > damage to a hallucination, which is where I'm getting at: where does > the cognition take place, what is actually cognized?" > > > > To answer the questions: sensory objects are what is cognized, and they are > cognized in the mind. colette: Ah, how nice to see you my friend, Jaq. Derrida, shall you enjoy DE-CONSTRUCTING our friend Charles, here, with me as we get liquored up at this bachanalian festival? So, Charles, you have already taken the position of the diety in a "creationist" reality, you have given the definition that only "sensory objects" can have and all sensory objects must have this definition since you are the creator. ... "Consciousness is indivisible and unitary in its nature. To the people of perverse intellect it appears as divided into a perceptible object, a percepient subject as well as perceptive knowledge. But, it's a transient thing, I do have to say you have a point by your attempts to encapculate the Yogacara. While this transient thing may be an actual attempt to assist in it's expanation, the yogacara, I do not know and will certainly not take an offensive posture YET. What were those Five creatures that the Martial Arts sought to personify as a means to an end? ------------------------ ... The answer is, "It is a great > hallucination/illusion, so great that it has substance, its existence is > nowhere. Its existence is relative. Its substance is relative. It is > relative. > > What is sunyata? colette: don't give me that crap you valueless, empty, vessel, that was shattered when the divine light was sent through it, and now you are nothing more than shards of a Qliphothic, Keliphotic, nature. You have already, previous, in fact it was the first point you made in an elaborate deception, COGNITION ABSOLUTELY REQUIRES SUBSTANCE. That is the most blatant act of double-talking I have ever seen.... Accept the karma that comes your way baby! A side note here I'm discussing Dukkha with a person on another sight and I can't wait to ask him:how, if he RECOGNIZES DUKKHA, how is it that he can place a value on DUKKHA AS BEING GREATER DUKKHA AND LESSER DUKKHA?. Isn't that the most outlandish thought, that "suffering" has degrees and that suffering is not suffering. I can't wait to lead him into that great gigantic field of defication, fertilizer, that money happens to come from. You should go back and review your ORDERS' Western theological traditions before you come around me now that I've found how to work Buddhism and am trying to grasp the Yogacara. don't think that your "supperiors" are not paying you to assassinate me, put an end to me, take me away from the picture that they hallucinate since I've shown the falsehood of their "glass floor" or is that "glass ceiling"? toodles, colette #69127 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 4:09 pm Subject: Re: "Dogs Of War" Pink Floyd nichiconn dear colette, colette wrote: "... you valueless, empty, vessel, that was shattered when the divine light was sent through it, ... go back and review your ORDERS' Western theological traditions before you come around me now that I've found how to work Buddhism and am trying to grasp the Yogacara." A story for you from the Visuddhimagga on 'working buddhism' and 'divine light': It is said that there was a beautiful painting of the Renunciation of Seven Buddhas in the great Kura.n.daka cave. And many of the brethren, wandering round the dwellings, saw the painting, and said: "Sir, beautiful is the painting." The Elder said, "Lads, I have lived in the cave for over sixty years and I did not even know whether the painting existed or not. Now I know today through you who possess eyes." Thus it is said that for so long the Elder living there never lifted his eyes and looked up. And at the cave-entrance there was a great ironwood tree. But the Elder had never looked up at it. It is said that he knew it was in blossom when each spring he saw the filaments that fell to the ground. The king, hearing of the Elder's virtuous attainments, and wishing to pay his respects, sent for him three times. And when the Elder did not come he caused to be shut up the breasts of the women in the village who were suckling infants, and had his seal put to this order: "As long as the Elder does not come, so long these infants must not suck milk." [39] And the Elder, out of compassion for the infants, went to the village. And the king heard of it, and saying to his ministers, "Go, I say, and introduce the Elder; I will acquire the virtues," had the Elder brought within the palace, paid his respects, gave him his meal of food, and saying to him, "Sir, today there is no opportunity. Tomorrow I will acquire the virtues," he took the Elder's bowl, accompanied him a little distance, and having, together with the queen, paid his respects, turned back. And the Elder said: "May the king be happy!" whether it was the king that paid respects or the queen. Thus seven days passed. And the brethren said: "Sir, whether it was the king that paid respects or the queen, why did you only say: 'May the kind be happy'?" The Elder replied: "Lads, I make no difference as to the king or the queen." After seven days the king, finding that the Elder was not happy there, let him go. The Elder went back to the great Kura.n.daka cave, and at night ascended to the promenade. And the diety that lived in the ironwood tree stood holding a torch. Then the Elder's subject of meditation became exceedingly pure and clear. And the Elder was glad, saying to himself, "Why is my subject of meditation so exceedingly clear today?" And causing the whole mountain to resound, he attained Sanctity immediately after the middle watch. And even so should any other son of good family desirous also of his own benefit, -- Let not the eye wander like forest-ape, Or trembling wood-deer, or affrighted child. The eyes should be cast downward: they should look The distance of a yoke: he shall not serve The eye's dominion, like a restless ape." peace, connie #69128 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 4:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Idle Thoughts on Nothing egberdina Hi Sukin, On 04/03/07, Sukinder wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > S> I wouldn't use the term "caused" but, "conditioned". `Cause' could > limit one's consideration to the past, forgetting about present conditions. > So it appears that up to this point we agree, no? > It's a little bit difficult for me to keep track of who believes what. If you acknowledge the reality of the past and the future, as well as the present, then we do agree. > To me conditions from the past could not even have effect in this > moment, were a host of many other conditions not in place. For > example, even kamma resultants arise not in some pre-deterministic > way; many present conditions are needed for any kamma to bear fruit. > So no, I don't think it is possible or even desirable to link present > realities to past causes alone. I ask you the following question only to clarify my understanding of your position. It is a totally theoretical question. If a given situation arises, and then arises again at a later time, identical in all the conditions that constitute it, will the same result follow? If you say yes, then I would say that there is ultimately no difference in meaning for you between conditon and cause. Also, you write very confidently about what goes to constitute a present moment. Could I ask you what the basis of your certainty is? > Herman: > > To one who has evolved a freewill perspective like me, > > conditionality does not imply that all events are caused, it implies > > that caused events are caused, but there are also uncaused, > > spontaneous events. Needless to say, this means that it is not > > possible to be certain about the past, present or future. > > S> Again, I would stick to using `conditions'. So whatever you have in > mind when you think of "spontaneous events", I think it as involving > conditioned realities arising and falling away. It will become clearer to me how I should understand this once you answer my question above. My answer to that same question would be, no, in identical situations the same result will not necessarily follow. > > Herman: > > You have here proceeded to give me your theory of mental causation, > > which I thank you for. The main feature as I see it is that it is a > > deterministic theory, all events are explainable. > > S> `Explainable' by virtue of realities having same characteristic, > function and proximate cause. Thus for example, all occurrences > of `lobha' since the beginningless samsara are said to be same in this > regard. The only thing `determined' is that all instances of lobha had > and will have the same characteristic, function and proximate cause, > and of course too, that they all are anicca, dukkha and anatta. What > else was the Buddha's enlightenment all about if not to discover this? It seems to me that constructing a system that reduces all possible worlds to a few self-identical realities is hardly a sign of enlightenment. There simply are no instances of lobha as self-identical realities that occur in isolation, outside of thinking it is so. This is no more than a conceptual system, one model of the way things work, amongst many. > > Herman: > > For me the critical thing that defines a moment of mindfulness is the > > realisation that whatever is happening or not happening, does not > have > > to be / is not causally determined. > > S> If you see `conditionality' in terms of situations involving self and > other, then it is understandable that any interpretation will be in > accordance to an underlying view. And of this, there is no awareness > and understanding. > =============================== I did not mention it, so I do not see why you introduce "self" here. It only has the potential to derail the discussion. > Herman: > > A mindful moment is a free moment, > > in which current action can be halted, or new action initiated. > > S> No need to halt anything, since everything arises and falls away > completely in an instant, and it already has. It is because we This doesn't make sense, IMO. Who is this "we" that doesn't understand? I think it is actually you who is introducing notions of self :-) >don't in > fact understand this, that the present moment is being interpreted as > something that lasts, upon which we can and must then act. This gives > rise to the illusion of control and `being free'. You seem to suggest that there is a default course of action, in the same way that some of the dsg'ers talk about things happening "naturally", and that there is no internal review or modification in a stream of consciousness. > > Herman: > > Needless to say, it is not an agent, a self, that suspends or > > initiates action, but whatever path is taken, the taking of that path > > is not causally determined. It is free. > > S> Free in the sense of *not* being causally determined, yes. But is > this all you are trying to prove? I think that in spite of what you say > here, you still believe in an agent. Sorry to disappoint, old chum, but I do not believe in an agent. > > Herman: > > When one is mindful of sitting still, or doing anything else for that > > matter, there is the option of then doing or not doing whatever comes > > to mind. When one is not mindful of sitting still, or anything else, > > whatever happens happens. > > S> "What comes to mind", is this conditioned? Doing or not doing either > way, are not these a matter of conditions? When `not mindful', whatever > is done or not done, do these not involve `intention' and are these not > also conditioned? Yes, conditioned, and also free, in that whatever happens could be any number of things. > > I think this is an example of what I mean in part, by `illusion of result'. > The difference between your so called being `mindful' and `not mindful', > has given rise to this idea that in one there is control, and in the other, > not. Of course there is a greater degree of review/modification/control in the presence of mindfulness, than in it's absence. Mindfulness modifies the course of events. If it didn't then mindfulness could play no role in Buddhism. > > > This is why it is so important to listen, consider and straighten one's > > > views at the intellectual level. Because if the understanding is > wrong, then > > > wrong practice invariably follows. > > Herman: > > Listen to what, might I ask? Surely whatever is listened to is > > conditioned? Surely, there can be no selecting of what or whom one > > listens to? > > S> Yes, it is all about conditions. Any `view' taught by any teacher will > find an audience in me as long as any opposing view does not arise or > has little appeal. We find what we seek. > Yes, intentions rule :-) > If I or anyone else happen to express `right view', this could be a > condition for others to seek out more of the same after having > appreciated what they just heard. Yes, it may, and it may not. It is more likely that it is the intentional state of mind of the hearer that decides whether "right view" was heard. > Herman: > > Sure. I'd like to ask you the following. Notions of wrong > > understanding and right understanding are conditioned. And they are > > evaluated in terms of goals that are also conceived through > > conditions. But what do you imagine to be the consequences of right > > understanding should this happen to evolve? > > S> Enlightenment. Eradication of kilesas. No more perversion of view, > perception and consciousness. No more helplessly and senselessly going > around in circles experiencing dukkha. But I think you are asking > something else? > No, that's what I meant. Thank you for the reply. I wish you success with your intention of naturally evolving right understanding. Kind Regards Herman #69129 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 5:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 137 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, If the object of the last citta process before death is the appearance of hell fire then the object of the process-freed consciousnesses (rebirth, bhavanga, death) of the next life is that same object, but it is a mere appearance without attachment or any other emotional or cognitive reaction. Correct? Is this (the last citta process and process-freed consciousnesses) the only case of an object of consciousness being conditioned by kamma? What conditions the other objects? I know, or I can look up, what conditions rupa, for example, but what makes a particular rupa an object of consciousness? Larry #69130 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 7:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group egberdina Hi James, We agree on most things. On 03/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > And what > > is observable does not require faith to observe it. > > James: Not true. There must be faith that it is observable before it > is observed. > I don't understand this. Could you expand on it? > > The difficulty, then, becomes the Path. Is the aim of discussion to > > coax others on to our understanding of what the path is ? > > James: Sure, why not? > What is preferable about one faith over another? Unless there is some rubber hitting the road, something in the here and now which requires no faith, it is all just pie in the sky IMO. Kind Regards Herman #69131 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 7:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Hi Howard, here we come to the essence of satipatthaana which can be developed naturally, and enlightenment which can be attained naturally, in the middle of playing with your grandchild. Think of the Sisiters! Nobody could notice it, when you are mindful of realities just for a few moments, and then there is bound to be forgetfulness. But it *can* be developed! Just a moment and this can be accumulated so that it becomes a new habit. Is there no seeing, when looking at Sophie, or rupas which are hardness or pressure when talking to her and moving the jaws? That can come in between paying attention to her and thinking of her, very quickly, unexpectantly. How does that interfere? Cittas are sooo fast. Nina. Op 3-mrt-2007, om 1:06 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Perhaps there's something for you to consider here as you play with > little > Sophie! > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Nah, couldn't do that - then I wouldn't be paying attention to the > present moment! ;-)) ====================================== I was somewhat joking, Nina, but not entirely. When you spoke of "considering", I assumed you meant thinking over, which, if sustained, is just distracting. With metta, Howad #69132 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 8:37 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q,. Rupas. Ch 1, no 2. Science. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > you are right, I should have been more complete. But to be exact, the > Pali cannot be avoided. > > Association with the sappurisa, which stands for an enlightened > person. Listening to the Dhamma, wise attention (yoniso manaasikaaro) > and practice in accordance with the dhamma, > dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. (A ii 245) > > 'Anu' is in accordance with. The second word dhamma refers to > nibbaana. In order to attain it, there has to be pa.tipatti of dhamma. > The meaning of the latter I elaborated on. Patti is: to reach or to > attain. pa.ti has many meanings, it can mean: towards. Pa.tipatti: to > follow a particular way. That is, (elaboration) to realize the three > general characteristics of realities. > I think that wise attention is very important. > Nina. Thank you for the Pali elaboration. Pali is a very fascinating language! Such complicated words! Anyway, what we seem to have here is a mistranslation of the Pali. Pa.tipatti means 'to follow a particular way'. In other words, practice of the Dhamma. However, you have defined Pa.tipatti as meaning to realize the three general characteristics of realities- this doesn't seem to be a correct definition. From my limited Pali knowledge, realizing the three characteristics of realities is Vipassana. Vipassana is insight, Pa.tipatti is practice. Metta, James #69133 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 8:56 pm Subject: Re: New Pic! buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James & all, > > Thanks for putting the very nice pic of you and Sebastien and the Pig in > the 'Significant Others' photo album. James: You're welcome. Ask and ye shall receive! ;-)) > Does Sebastien have any interest in Buddhism as yet? James: It's funny you ask that. In Taiwan, Buddhism, Taoism, and Ancestor Worship are all rolled up into one. Sebastian calls himself a Buddhist, but he really isn't one. When I tell Sebastian that I am a Buddhist, he laughs and tells me that I am not a Buddhist and that I don't know anything about Buddhism! LOL! If I am talking to him about a subject, and the Buddha comes to mind, I will say something about, "The Buddha taught..." He will get irritated and in a joking way tell me, "Fu*k Buddha!" Grrrr.... It is a real test of my equanimity to not get angry when he says that! So, anyway, I doubt that I could ever get Sebastian interesed in learning about Buddhism. He knows too much already! ;-)) Say 'hi' to him from > us! James: Will do! :-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > Metta, James #69134 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 9:05 pm Subject: Re: Where does Anger start from? buddhatrue Hi Nitesh, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kanchaa" wrote: > > Usually when I am disturber, upset then I only give Metta to > myself.. I believe when I am disturbed, I dont want to share my > disturbed energy to the world... James: As I wrote to you, I don't believe in the practice of radiating metta to oneself. It just doesn't work and the Buddha didn't teach that (it can only be found in the Vism.). Just radiate metta to all living being in all the directions. Don't worry about giving them "disturbed energy"...if the metta is corrupted it won't go anywhere. And, just to point something out, you are completely defeating the purpose of metta meditation!! It is when your mind is disturbed that you should radiate metta to all living beings- this is what will calm your mind. Simply focusing on yourself just reinforces the ego and makes the mind more agitated. Rather than thinking and worrying about yourself, radiate metta to others. This will calm your mind- trust me. > > I have usually my mind working toooo much during meditation... I am > ignoring such at the moment... Hope that it will turn better.. James: It sounds like you are not very focused during your meditation. You might want to look at the files secion of this group for a folder that contains four pdf. articles about meditation. They are excellent!! They could get you back on track. > > Sincerely, > > Nitesh > Metta, James #69135 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 9:17 pm Subject: Re: New Group buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi James, > > We agree on most things. > > On 03/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > > wrote: > > > > And what > > > is observable does not require faith to observe it. > > > > James: Not true. There must be faith that it is observable before it > > is observed. > > > > I don't understand this. Could you expand on it? James: You wrote that the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) are observable so they don't need faith to observe them. Have you personally observed anatta? I know I haven't, not really, but I know that it is a reality because I have faith in the Triple Gem. Unless one is a Buddha or Silent-Buddha, where there is no learning from someone else, then faith is required to follow the Buddha's path. > > > > > The difficulty, then, becomes the Path. Is the aim of discussion to > > > coax others on to our understanding of what the path is ? > > > > James: Sure, why not? > > > > What is preferable about one faith over another? James: Buddhism is true and other faiths are false. That is what makes Buddhism preferable. Unless there is some > rubber hitting the road, something in the here and now which requires > no faith, it is all just pie in the sky IMO. > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > Metta, James #69136 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 3, 2007 10:18 pm Subject: Right Understanding? bhikkhu5 Friends: What is Right Understanding of the 3 Facts! The Blessed Buddha once said: It is impossible, Bhikkhu and Friends, and cannot ever happen, that one possessed of right understanding should ever regard any phenomenon as really permanent ... or any phenomenon as real happiness ... or any state as a real self... But it is quite possible that the ordinary worldling may indeed have, entertain & act out such a naive and distorted belief... Source: Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 15:1-3 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <......> #69137 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 1:03 am Subject: Q, Vis. Ch XVII, 137 nilovg Hi Larry, ----- If the object of the last citta process before death is the appearance of hell fire then the object of the process-freed consciousnesses (rebirth, bhavanga, death) of the next life is that same object, but it is a mere appearance without attachment or any other emotional or cognitive reaction. Correct? -------- N: Yes, because the rebirth-consciousness is merely vipaakacitta, not javanacitta. ------- L:Is this (the last citta process and process-freed consciousnesses) the only case of an object of consciousness being conditioned by kamma? What conditions the other objects? --------- N: No. Rupa connected with the body, also someone else's body, can be a sense object experienced by citta. That rupa originates from kamma, citta, nutrition or heat. Thus, this goes for example for colour that is seen, colour connected with a body. It is hard to pinpoint at which moment which factor conditions which object. When you see someone else's face become red of anger, you can deduct that it is colour originating from citta. Now we speak about the four factors producing rupa. But when we speak about kamma conditioning the object of the last javanacittas, it is another type of conditioning. We have to differentiate this. --------- L: I know, or I can look up, what conditions rupa, for example, but what makes a particular rupa an object of consciousness? --------- N: Each citta must experience an object and the object conditions citta by way of object-condition. You ask: a particular rupa: this depends on a particular type of citta. Kamma produces vipaakacitta that experiences rupa. Without kamma conditioning that citta that particular rupa could not be experienced. Then there are javanacittas that experience the same rupa, kusala or akusala. That rupa has not fallen away yet. This is conditioned by natural strong dependence condition. The accumulated kusala and akusala inclinations condition the javanacittas that experience that particular rupa. ------- Nina. #69138 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 1:20 am Subject: re: rupas, introduction, nimitta. nilovg Dear Scott, ---------- Sujin: It is not a matter of someone who can be aware, there can be the development of understanding.] ------- N: my remark now: how good, there is always someone who wants to be aware. --------- Scott: This is true. I thought I'd insert two definitions (PTS PED), since I found myself considering both as I read the above: Pa~n~natti: "...making known, manifestation, description, name, idea, notion, concept..." Nimitta: "...outward appearance, mark, characteristic, attribute, phenomenon (opp. essence)..." Scott: Clearly nimitta is not concept. Concept is naama. ------ N: Kh Sujin did not answer this at first. She wanted us to consider instead of naming or finding out whether it is a concept. She said: it is there now. Concept is not naama. Perhaps you mean: a name. ----------- S: Do you consider ruupa-nimitta (if one can put it this way) to be something that is neither ruupa nor pa~n~natti - some sort of intermediate thing? I'd guess that this can't really be so, if one follows the adage that if it is not paramattha dhamma then it is pa~n~natti. The above noted definition of nimitta shows what Kh. Sujin asserts - that it remains true to the characteristic of the object yet is not the object itself, for reasons already discussed. ------- N: The object of awareness and right understanding in vipassana is always a paramattha dhamma. She said that we can be aware of characteristics. The fact that it is a nimitta of visible object helps us to see that there is no precise understanding of one reality. There are many moments of seeing, many instants of hardness, but sure, there are characteristics and these are real. -------- Scott: ....See, here, how she states that nimitta is that which is experienced when a reality is not. If it is not concept, which it appears not to be, then what is it? This is interesting to consider. Could you please let me know what you think might be meant, in this context, when the word 'experience' is used? Is there a precise Paa.li term? -------- N: I would rather say: a characteristic is experienced. Experienced by sati and pa~n~naa, even a beginning pa~n~naa. It has to begin. Pali: paajaanati. Nimitta is also known, but this is more like dreaming, she said. Like a dream vision. -------- Scott: This I've come to, that is, that it is unnecessary to attempt to 'catch' or 'label' experience. No need. No one experiences and to keep labelling is just like practising as there was someone who practises. ------- N: Well said. ------------ N: . We cognize the nimitta. Such as experiencing the nimitta of visible object. Awareness: mindfulness of a characteristic that appears." -------- S:So awareness=sati. Thanks. ------- Nina. #69139 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nilovg Hi TG (and Howard) and friends, The below, quoted by Howard, I agree completely with. I have to make my answer short. Because of some physical weakness and a slight ailment due to old age I am forced to limit my computer time. I always try to answer mails, (I find it not so nice not doing that) but now I am not able to answer all mails or to go into all points. I regret this, but I am forced to this by circumstances. T.G. , I just select some part of your mail. My statements are not mine, I base what I say on the Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included and commentaries. So, I will not say: as I see it. See my Intro to rupas.I remember long ago you mentioned this also. Plants: there is no plane of existence of plants where you can be reborn, see the suttas. U Narada, Guide to Conditional Relations (p. 42): under strong dependence-condition materiality is never a conditioned state, although it may appear to be so. He calls them external rupa. Long ago there were posts about this, and I mentioned that I am a member of the protection of nature society. To show that I care for plants and trees. Is this post perhaps retraceable under plant life? Nina. Op 3-mrt-2007, om 22:46 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The study of "elements" is for > the purpose of "turning away" from them, not for the purpose of > "establishing" them. #69140 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 1:28 am Subject: Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2, practice. nilovg Hi James, Thank you for the Pali elaboration. Pali is a very fascinating language! Such complicated words! Anyway, what we seem to have here is a mistranslation of the Pali. Pa.tipatti means 'to follow a particular way'. In other words, practice of the Dhamma. However, you have defined Pa.tipatti as meaning to realize the three general characteristics of realities- this doesn't seem to be a correct definition. ------ N: my elaboration came from the Thai, given by a Thai professor, Somphon, who is an expert in Pali. The word particular indicates: the particular characteristics according to him. Which characteristics? First the different characteristics such as visible object, sound etc. and later on the three general characteristics of realities. -------- J: From my limited Pali knowledge, realizing the three characteristics of realities is Vipassana. Vipassana is insight, Pa.tipatti is practice. ------- N: Goood you mention this. Vipassana is insight to be developed in stages, it is a process of developing. Thus, to me it is the same as what is called pa.tipatti: development of the understanding of the characteristics of realities. -------- Nina. #69141 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 3:43 am Subject: Daana Corner (10) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla. Susan wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: * The Factor of Volition * The Recipient of Gifts * The Objects to be Given * The Perfection of Giving * The Ultimate Goal of Giving The following is the end-part of ‘The Recipient of Gifts.’ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The practice of giving is also beneficial when directed to someone who is not spiritually advanced. If the donor's intention is good, then even though the receiver is immoral, the donor will earn merit and further, by his act of giving, he will strengthen within himself his own disposition to renunciation. A gift mentally offered to the noble Sangha but physically presented to a monk who is morally corrupt will still bear great fruit. To be sure, we should not pretend that a bad person is good, but we must be most careful of our own attitude while giving, as our attitude is the factor over which we have most control. ------------------------------ Han: This is the end of sub-chapter on ‘The Recipient of Gifts.’ I like this paragraph. But it may still be short of requirements for the Perfection of Giving, because it still shows the desire to have some fruits out of one’s merits. What I like is that she mentioned the donor’s disposition to renunciation. But I am sure Nina will not agree to the last sentence: “our attitude is the factor over which we have most control.” ‘The Objects to be Given’ will start from next post. Respectfully, Han #69142 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 4:27 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner (10) philofillet Hi Han and all > gift mentally offered to the noble Sangha but > physically presented to a monk who is morally corrupt > will still bear great fruit. I have trouble with this because I live in Japan and how does one define a "monk" when "monks" in Japan marry, have children and drink Chivas whisky? I guess it is fair enough to feel that any monk who does not follow the precepts (or code of vinaya) is not a monk. But as it said above, one gives with respect for the sangha we hold mentally. To be sure, we should not > pretend that a bad person is good, but we must be most > careful of our own attitude while giving, as our > attitude is the factor over which we have most > control. > > But I am sure Nina will not agree to the last > sentence: "our attitude is the factor over which we > have most control.?E> The Buddah gives many instructions about how to train the mind to encourage positive attitudes. There are many suttas in which we are encouraged to look into oneself to see if one is often angry, or lustful, of it there is a "blemish" that one would not want to die with, or if what one is going to do, is doing and has done is harmful or helfpul, and whether one's thoughts are running in harmful ruts, and on, and on, and on. I call these "mirror" suttas - and I think it would be a shame not to use the mirror offered by the Buddha. We have no control over whether positive attitudes developed in this way will condition deeper understanding, but we must begin where we must begin. And of course we know that when there are *not* positive attitudes, wholesome attitudes it doesn't mean that we are failing as Buddhists. If there is heedfulness we will not be swept away by bad attitudes, we will not "decline from wholesome states." Heedfullnes, appamada, is like an umbrella under which all wholesome states are given shelter to develop, under which the indriyas develop. There is a very good sutta in which the Buddha makes this very clear. Wholesome states go to fulfillment under the protection of appamada. "We must be careful of our attitude" when doing anything. The Buddha made this very clear in his discourse to Rahula, his son. Before, during and after whatever we do, think, or speak. Obviously this won't be happening all the time, but if it only happens a few times an hour, for example, we are leaving ourselves open for disaster. That is a number I just chose off the topic of my head, but appamada is an ongoing, constant companion, nothing that arises now and then to be seen with panna. Nope. That's not appamada. That's off topic. I just felt like having a little mini-rant. Metta, Phil p.s Nitesh(I think that is you name, you were asking about "where does anger come from."), I haven't forgotten you, or Jon. I will be posting ...at some point! :) Nitesh, in the meantime, may I recommend that you google appamada and read as many suttas as you can on the subject? It is vitally important, I think. For us all. Appamada and avihimsa, harmlessness. #69143 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ariyan sangha jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > >>> Does the Sangha, as community of enlightened ones, have any members? >> Yes, I presume so. >> > > I suspect that the presumption of an ariyna sangha is as close as > we're going to get :-) > Right. There cannot be direct knowledge (of the kind spoken of in the teachings) of the existence of the ariyan sangha, except by one who has him/her-self attained enlightenment. There can be an idea of the possibility of enlightenment consciousness / ariyan persons, based on one's understanding of the teachings (see more below). > You seem to be implying that conventional ariyans who haved passed > away, somehow still are, or otherwise you are suggesting that there > are living ariyans today? Have I got that right? > As explained in my earlier post, the ariyan sangha is simply a conventional term to refer to the path consciousness that arises at the moment of enlightenment. If the latter is possible, then so is an ariyan sangha; if not, then not. In reflecting on the ariyan sangha, we do not need to have a mental image of particular individuals in a particular realm. >> I've seen Howard's post to you on this thread, so I'd like to add the >> following: In the ultimate sense, the ariyan sangha means the path >> consciousness (magga citta), i.e., the transcendental consciousness that >> arises at the moment of enlightenment. It is this dhamma that one >> recollects/pays respect to in recollecting/paying respect to the ariyan >> sangha. >> > > Displacing the question from a conventional realm to an ultimate realm > doesn't really alter the substance of my question. Whether it's an > embodied ariyan, or an ariyan citta, the question is, is there one? > The Buddha asserts there is an ariyan sangha. Neither you nor I can make that same assertion. But what is possible for you or I is the verification of matters taught by the Buddha, including the development of insight said to lead to path consciousness. To the extent that there has been any such verification, there can be confidence in other parts of the teachings. > If there isn't, the ariyan sangha seems no different than a tomb to an > unknown soldier. It is a placeholder for hommage in general, for > qualities that are presumed to have been, but that certainly cannot be > recollected, for they are not known. > I used the term 'recollect' because that is the usual translation of the Pali 'anussati'. Perhaps 'contemplate' would have been a better choice. Yes, the ariyan sangha represents the enlightenment qualities (wisdom, awareness, effort, etc). These are not completely foreign to us, in that they can and do arise in very weak, undeveloped form in the worldling (what is really beyond our comprehension right now is the actual enlightenment consciousness and its object, nibbana). Hope this clarifies. How was your weekend? Jon #69144 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 5:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kusala and akusala jonoabb Hi Colette colette wrote: > Good Morning Jonothan, > > Well, since this was a few days ago I'm at a loss as to the original > msg. but I'm gonna maintain a thought with you based on what you've > stated and I can work with. > > >> Yes, this sounds like me. Guilty as charged, I'm afraid. >> > > colette: this is the exact place that YOU HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS, we > can go into "value structures" etc but I think you get my point. It's > in your hands. You have the current situation, a single view of a > single reality, what is it that you are going to do with this reality? > > Here you can participate in the TRANSFORMATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS, aka > vijnana-parinama. It' a choice only you can make. > Thanks for the encouragement, but the problem with the approach you suggest is that any choices made are only as soundly based as our ignorance and wrong view will permit. That is not to say there is never wholesomeness or even perhaps awareness, but these moments are in the minority, and cannot be summoned to be present when we are making choices. >> I don't think it's necessary to be in anyone's shoes in order to >> consider the concept of kusala/akusala. >> > > colette: When I spoke of "being in another's shoes" I meant that > rethorically, as in POINT OF VIEW (POV). Kusala/Akusala are both only > concepts of illusory situations we find ourselves in. > If kusala/akusala are concepts of illusory situations we find ourselves in, it would not be possible to know whether one's own presently arising consciousness is kusala or aksuala. > We taint, we > prejudice, we color, etc, different things (which are illusions > and "empty") as a means of UNDERSTANDING AND CONVERSATIONS. I meant > that you must, in order for you to give Howard the benefit of your > wisdom, become Howard, this is an advanced magikal technique I use in > what is called Astral Projection, and now that I've found so many > scholars involved in this stuff I have only scratched the surface of > this subject in my own research, become Howard since it is advice you > are giving to Howard about Howard's consciousness, his > actions/reactions, etc. I also meant that it isn't really practical > to even consider that another person can advise a person on things > since I truely understand the doctrines on EXPERIENCE. > I agree that one cannot know another's consciousness directly. Jon #69145 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for help with Pali pronunciation jonoabb Dear Ven. Sir Many thanks for this information. I will make sure Tom sees it. Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Hi Jon, > > >> I believe there are Pali speech/pronunciation files available on the >> internet. Does anyone know if these would be of any help to Tom's >> group? >> > > There are two online resources that may help: > > Wav files showing the pronunciation of the Pali vowels and consonants: > http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/DBLM/olcourse/pali/pali-alpha2.htm > > Wav files showing the pronunciation of a selection of words (a few of > which are also on Tom's list): > http://www.aimwell.org/Help/Pali/pali.html > > In both cases the pronunciation is modern Sinhala-style. > As a matter of interest, is there such a thing as a standard 'international' pronunciation and, if so, how would the modern Sinhala-style in the files you have linked for us vary from that standard? Respectfully, Jon #69146 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 5:48 am Subject: Re: rupas, introduction, nimitta. scottduncan2 Dear Kh. Nina, Thank you very much for your reply. No need, by the way, for you to always be so prompt. This way, there could be conditions for khanti (or whatever arises instead)! ------- [Scott: Pa~n~natti: "...making known, manifestation, description, name, idea, notion, concept..." Nimitta: "...outward appearance, mark, characteristic, attribute, phenomenon (opp. essence)..." Scott: Clearly nimitta is not concept. Concept is naama.] ------ N: "Kh Sujin did not answer this at first. She wanted us to consider instead of naming or finding out whether it is a concept. She said: it is there now. Concept is not naama. Perhaps you mean: a name." Scott: Yes, sorry, naama as in 'name', not 'mentality' or 'mind'. Nimitta is 'characteristic' not 'name', hence not pa~n~natti. And I'll keep considering this, but the below helps: N: "The object of awareness and right understanding in vipassana is always a paramattha dhamma. She said that we can be aware of characteristics. The fact that it is a nimitta of visible object helps us to see that there is no precise understanding of one reality. There are many moments of seeing, many instants of hardness, but sure, there are characteristics and these are real." Scott: Nina, when you note that nimitta helps in seeing 'that there is no precise understanding of one reality', do you mean now at the very beginning of the development of vipassanaa, or that the experience of one reality is never to be expected to come, even with developed satipa.t.thaana? It doesn't matter, in a way, does it, since it is the characteristic that is real. And, also, more importantly, to worry too much about this is just thinking, and in particular thinking about a person who practises towards a goal. Not the way it is. N: "I would rather say: a characteristic is experienced. Experienced by sati and pa~n~naa, even a beginning pa~n~naa. It has to begin. Pali: paajaanati. Nimitta is also known, but this is more like dreaming, she said. Like a dream vision." Scott: Thanks for clarifying the above for me. So the beginnings of developing satipa.t.thaana, then. And 'paajaanati' is a good word. The PTS PED defines it as 'to know, find out, come to know, understand, distinguish'. This is a precise use of the word 'experience' and I think it bears keeping in mind. I notice that, when considering Dhamma, there is an intricate, recursive sort of pattern in which the various Paa.li terms circle around and fit in to each other. When the English is introduced it is often imprecise, such as with the word 'experience' and then, if one doesn't keep to as close to the original linguistic source as it is possible to do, all sorts of widely disparate nuances can enter in and distort the meaning. The gerund of 'paajaanati' I see, for example, is 'pa~n~naaya', which is defined as 'understanding fully, knowing well, realising, in full cognition, in thorough realisation or understanding'. And thus, keeping within the circle of the Paa.li, the sense of experience with sati and pa~n~na is maintained. And back to nimitta, for a moment, given that it is 'like a dream', I'm assuming that 'one' wakes up eventually. Thanks again, Nina. Please take your time to reply. Sincerely, Scott. #69147 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 5:50 am Subject: Re: Lachen und Weinen (Was: Re: [dsg] Meditation (again) jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > >> The pain is unpleasant, but there's no aversion to it. >> > > Pain, in my books, is already an aversive reaction to a stimulus. So > is a feeling of unpleasantness. > Then we are using the same term differently ;-)) According to the classification/description contained in the teachings, as under stood by me [Note: standard disclaimers for me and others who write here, but not necessarily expressed in every message written], the consciousness that is aversive reaction is a different moment and class of consciousness to that which experiences bodily pain. (a) The moment of experiencing pain is a moment of body-door consciousness experiencing hardness/heat/ pressure and accompanied by unpleasant feeling. (b) The moment of aversive reaction is a moment of mind-door consciousness that follows after the body-door consciousness. It too is accompanied by unpleasant feeling. At times of experiencing pain there will be multiple moments of each of these 2 kind of consciousness arising alternately (giving the appearance of a single kind of consciousness of 'pain with aversion'). The citta at (a) is a citta of the kind called vipaka (resultant), while the citta at (b) is a citta of the kind called aksuala. > At a certain level of jhana > pleasantness and unpleasantness do not arise. This is a state of > non-evaluation, but beyond that, at a grosser level of awareness, > there is evaluation. The vedana taste of a sensation is not an > impulsion to react, it already is a reaction. > Jhana cittas are kusala cittas, and thus not associated with 'pain with aversion' in any sense. > I accept that there are degrees in this. But the suggestion that there > is pain that is and isn't reacted to doesn't look closely enough at > what level reactivity starts. There is a good explanation for the fact > that people of certain attainments can burn themselves to a crisp as a > political protest, without so much as a whimper. It is not because > they are carefully monitoring each painful burning sensation and > biting their tongue to prevent reacting, it is because there are no > such sensations in their jhana state. > Yes, if there are jhana cittas arising there cannot at the same moment be painful burning sensation. But whether that explains the situation you mention here I'd rather not speculate about ;-)) > Pain that is not further reacted to is identical with any other > display of Stoicism. > You are talking here about reaction in the sense of something manifesting as bodily conduct/movement, I think. There is no such thing as 'no reaction', I believe [with the usual disclaimers added]. Rest of your post snipped for another time. Jon #69148 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 6:28 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (39) nichiconn Dear Friends, Vimalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa / 2. The commentary on the verses of Theri Vimalaa Mattaa va.n.nena ruupenaati-aadikaa vimalaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinitvaa imasmi.m buddhuppaade vesaaliya.m a~n~nataraaya ruupuupajiiviniyaa itthiyaa dhiitaa hutvaa nibbatti. Vimalaatissaa naama.m ahosi. Saa vayappattaa tatheva jiivika.m kappentii The verses beginning Intoxicated by my [good] complexion are Theri Vimalaa's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddha's and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. In this Buddha era, she was born in Vesaalii as the daughter of a woman who made her living from her beauty. Her name was Vimalaa. When she came of age, she made her living in the same way. ekadivasa.m aayasmanta.m mahaamoggallaana.m vesaaliya.m pi.n.daaya caranta.m disvaa pa.tibaddhacittaa hutvaa therassa vasana.t.thaana.m gantvaa thera.m uddissa palobhanakamma.m kaatu.m aarabhi. "Titthiyehi uyyojitaa tathaa akaasii"ti keci vadanti. Thero tassaa asubhavibhaavanamukhena santajjana.m katvaa ovaadamadaasi. One day, she saw Venerable Mahaa-Moggallaana going on his alms rounds in Vesaalii. She became enamoured of the thera, went to his dwelling place, and began to make seductive action in the thera's direction. Some say she did this incited by the sectarians. The thera instructed her, having frightened her with an explanation of the impure. That [instruction] has come down [to us] in the verses of the thera above. [These four verses were spoken as instruction to the prostitute who went to him out of desire {Theragaathaa vv.1150-57}: You little hut, made of a chain of bones, sewn together with flesh and sinew. Fie upon the evil-smelling body. You cherish those who have another's limbs. You bag of dung, tied up with skin, you demoness with lumps on your breast. There are nine streams in your body which flow all the time. Your body with its nine streams makes an evil smell and is obstructed by dung. A bhikkhu desiring purity avoids it as one avoids excrement. If any person knew you as I know you, he would avoid you, keeping far away, as one avoids a cess pit in the rainy season. Thus the thera made clear the faults of the body. She, the prostitute, established respect for the thera through being hurt with shame. She said, "So it is, great hero," and speaking this verse, she paid homage to the thera and stood to one side. This is so, great hero, as you say, ascetic; and here some sink down as an old bull in mud. Then the thera said, "For one like me, such conduct is useless and even causes annoyance," and pointing out the sky, he spoke another pair of verses: For whoever would think of painting the sky with yellow or any other colour, that is only a source of trouble. This mind, well concentrated inside, is like the sky. Evil-minded one,do not attack me as a moth attacks a bonfire. [O]bserving the prostitute, he spoke [another verse] to give instruction to bhikkhus with corrupt thoughts. Having heard it, the prositute was confused and ran away in the direction she had come. See the painted puppet, a heap of sores, a compounded body, diseased, with many [bad] intentions, for which there is no permanent stability.] {C: Just another queer change in word usage here... RD uses the term 'courtesan', which used to mean something quite opposite to 'prostitute'... more a higher class 'lady of the court' than one of 'the streets' or 'the evening'. OTOH, recalling (dsg #68420 (this one and that my personal favorites so far, btw)} Padumavatii was said to have become a prostitute as a result of a good deed, maybe I'm just saying something about my own 'cultured' way of thinking.} Ta.m he.t.thaa theragaathaaya aagatameva, tathaa pana therena ovaade dinne saa sa.mvegajaataa hirottappa.m paccupa.t.thapetvaa saasane pa.tiladdhasaddhaa upaasikaa hutvaa aparabhaage bhikkhuniisu pabbajitvaa gha.tentii vaayamantii hetusampannataaya na cirasseva arahatta.m patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa udaanavasena- 72. "Mattaa va.n.nena ruupena, sobhaggena yasena ca; yobbanena cupatthaddhaa, a~n~naasamatima~n~niha.m. 73. "Vibhuusetvaa ima.m kaaya.m, sucitta.m baalalaapana.m; a.t.thaasi.m vesidvaaramhi, luddo paasamivo.d.diya. 74. "Pi.landhana.m vida.msentii, guyha.m pakaasika.m bahu.m; akaasi.m vividha.m maaya.m, ujjhagghantii bahu.m jana.m. 75. "Saajja pi.n.da.m caritvaana, mu.n.daa sa"nghaa.tipaarutaa; nisinnaa rukkhamuulamhi, avitakkassa laabhinii. 76. "Sabbe yogaa samucchinnaa, ye dibbaa ye ca maanusaa; khepetvaa aasave sabbe, siitibhuutaamhi nibbutaa"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. Then, when the thera had given instruction in this way, a profound stirring arose in her, and she established [a sense of] shame and fear of wrongdoing. She gained faith in the teachings, and afterwards went forth among the bhikkhuniis. Striving, making an effort, through the maturing of the prerequisites, she attained Arahatship after a very short time. Looking over her attainment, she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: 72. Intoxicated by my [good] complexion, my figure, beauty, and fame, haughty because of my youth, I despised other women. 73. Having decorated this body, very variegated, deceiving fools, I stood at the brothel door, like a hunter having spread out a snare, 74. showing my ornamentation. Many a secret [place] was revealed. I did various sorts of conjuring, mocking many people. 75. Today I have wandered for alms with shaven head, clad in the outer robe, and am seated at the foot of a tree. I have obtained the stage of non-reasoning. 76. I have cut out all ties - those that are divine and those that are human. I have annihilated all the taints. I have become cool, quenched. RD: How was I once puff'd up, incens'd with the bloom of my beauty, Vain of my perfect form, my fame and success 'midst the people, Fill'd with the pride of my youth, unknowing the Truth and unheeding! (72) Lo! I made my body, bravely arrayed, deftly painted, Speak for me to the lads, whilst I at the door of the harlot Stood, like a crafty hunter, weaving his snares, ever watchful. (73) Yea, I bared without shame my body and wealth of adorning; Manifold wiles I wrought, devouring the virtue of many. (74) To-day with shaven head, wrapt in my robe, I go forth on my daily round for food; And 'neath the spreading boughs of forest tree I sit, and Second-Jhana's rapture win, Where reas'nings cease, and joy and ease remain. (75) Now all the evil bonds that fetter gods And men are wholly rent and cut away. Purg'd are the AAsavas that drugg'd my heart, Calm and content I know Nibbana's Peace. (76) CORRIGENDUM: In verse 72, where Professors Pischel and E. Muller have read ... a~n~naa samatima~n~ni 'ha.m, I now incline, with the Commentary, to read a~n~naasam atima~n~ni 'ha.m, and would amend the English thus: Filled with the pride of my youth, I scorned and despised other women. Again, in verse 74, a truer rendering would be: Manifold wiles I wrought, mocking with insolent laughter. And in verse 76, for 'calm' read 'cool.' Tattha mattaa va.n.nena ruupenaati gu.nava.n.nena ceva ruupasampattiyaa ca. Sobhaggenaati subhagabhaavena. Yasenaati parivaarasampattiyaa. Mattaa va.n.namadaruupamadasobhaggamadaparivaaramadavasena mada.m aapannaati attho. Yobbanena cupatthaddhaati yobbanamadena uparuupari thaddhaa yobbananimittena aha"nkaarena upatthaddhacittaa anupasantamaanasaa. A~n~naasamatima~n~nihanti a~n~naa itthiyo attano va.n.naadigu.nehi sabbathaapi atikkamitvaa ma~n~ni.m aha.m. A~n~naasa.m vaa itthiina.m va.n.naadigu.ne atima~n~ni.m atikkamitvaa ama~n~ni.m avamaana.m akaasi.m. 72. There, intoxicated by my [good] complexion (gu.na-va.n.nena), my figure (ruupena) means: through the quality of her complexion (gu.na-va.n.nena) and the perfection of her figure (ruupa-sampattiyaa). Beauty (sobhaggena) means: the state of being fortunate (subhaga-bhaavena). Fame means: the perfection of her honour. Intoxicated (mattaa) means: intoxicated by her [good] complexion, intoxicated by her figure, intoxicated by her beauty, intoxicated by her fame (va.n.na-mada-ruupa-mada-sobhagga-mada-parivaara-mada-vasena). Haughty (upatthaddhaa) because of my youth (yobbanena) means: more and more callous (uparuupari thaddhaa) by being intoxicated by my youth (yobbana-madena), possessing a mind that is haughty due to egotism through the characteristic of youth (yobbana-nimittena), possessing a mind without inner peace. I despised (samatima~n~ni) other women (a~n~naa) means: I thought (ma~n~ni.m) of myself as having passed in every way other women (a~n~naa itthiyo) in regards to the qualities of a [good] complexion, etc. Or, I despised (atima~n~ni.m) the qualities of a [good] complexion, etc, of other women (a~n~naasa.m vaa itthiina.m), having surpassed the, I thought. I had contempt for them. Vibhuusitvaa ima.m kaaya.m, sucitta.m baalalaapananti ima.m naanaavidha-asucibharita.m jeguccha.m aha.m mamaati baalaana.m laapanato vaacanato baalalaapana.m mama kaaya.m chaviraagakara.nakesa.t.thapanaadinaa sucitta.m vatthaabhara.nehi vibhuusitvaa suma.n.ditapasaadita.m katvaa. A.t.thaasi.m vesidvaaramhi, luddo paasamivo.d.diyaati migaluddo viya migaana.m bandhanatthaaya da.n.davaakuraadimigapaasa.m, maarassa paasabhuuta.m yathaavutta.m mama kaaya.m vesidvaaramhi vesiyaa gharadvaare o.d.diyitvaa a.t.thaasi.m. 73. Having decorated this body, very variegated, deceiving fools (baala-laapana.m) means: this body of mind, full of various kinds of ordure, is disgusting, because of the saying of fools (baalaana.m laapanato vaacanato), "It is mind," [therefore] deceiving fools; my body, arranging my hair and cosmetics; very variegated, with ornaments and [fine] clothing, etc; having decorated, having beautifully adorned. I stood at the brothel door (vesi-dvaaramhi), like (iv') a hunter (luddo) having spread out a snare (paasam) means: just as (viya) a hunter of animals (miga-luddo) [spreads out] nets on sticks as animal snares (da.n.da-vaakuraadi-miga-paasa.m) in order to put the animals in bonds (migaana.m bandhanatthaaya). I stood at the brothel door (vesi-dvaaramhi) - the door of the house of the prostitute (vesiyaa ghara-dvaare) - having spread out (o.d.diyitvaa) my body, which acted as a snare (paasa-bhuuta.m) for Maara, as I have said. Pi.landhana.m vida.msentii, guyha.m pakaasika.m bahunti uurujaghanathanadassanaadika.m guyha~nceva paadajaa.nusiraadika.m pakaasa~ncaati guyha.m pakaasika~nca bahu.m naanappakaara.m pi.landhana.m aabhara.na.m dassentii. Akaasi.m vividha.m maaya.m, ujjhagghantii bahu.m jananti yobbanamadamatta.m bahu.m baalajana.m vippalambhetu.m hasantii gandhamaalaavatthaabhara.naadiihi sariirasabhaavapa.ticchaadanena hasavilaasabhaavaadiihi tehi ca vividha.m naanappakaara.m va~ncana.m akaasi.m. 74. Showing (vida.msentii) my ornamentation. Many a secret [place] was revealed (pakaasa.m) means: a secret [place] such as the thighs, hips, and breasts, et, as well as the feet, knees, and head, etc, was revealed; and the secret [places] revealed (pakaasika.m) were many, various; ornamentation (pi.landhana.m), showing ornamentation (aabha-ra.na.m), intoxicated with pride in my youth. I did various (vividha.m) sorts of conjuring (maaya.m), mocking many people means: intoxicated with pride in my youth, in order to deceive many a foolish person (bahu.m baala-jana.m) through the states of laughter and sport, etc, with my perfume, garlands, clothing, and ornaments, etc, hiding the true nature of my body, and with them I created various (vividha.m = naanappakaara.m) sorts of illusions (va~ncana.m akaasi.m). Saajja pi.n.da.m caritvaana…pe… avitakkassa laabhiniiti saa aha.m eva.m pamaadavihaarinii samaanaa ajja idaani ayyassa mahaamoggallaanattherassa ovaade .thatvaa saasane pabbajitvaa mu.n.daa sa"nghaa.tipaarutaa hutvaa pi.n.da.m caritvaana bhikkhaahaara.m bhu~njitvaa nisinnaa rukkhamuulamhi rukkhamuule vivittaasane nisinnaa dutiyajjhaanapaadakassa aggaphalassa adhigamena avitakkassa laabhinii amhiiti yojanaa. 75. Today (saajja = saa ajja) I have wandered for alms ... etc ... I have obtained the stage of non-reasoning means: I (saa = aha.m), being one who lived in carelessness, today (ajja), now (idaani), I stand in the instruction of Venerable Thera Mahaa-Moggallaana, having gone forth in the teachings, with shaven head, clad in the outer robe, I have wanderedfor alms (pi.n.da.m caritvaana), I have enjoyed the food of a mendicant (bhikkhaahaara.m bhu~njitvaa). Seated at the foot of a tree (nisinnaa rukkha-mulamhi), seated on a secluded seat at the foot of a tree (rukkha-muule vivittaasane nisinnaa), by the attainment of the highest fruition state through the basis of the second absorption state, I have attained the stage of non-reasoning. That is the connection. Sabbe yogaati kaamayogaadayo cattaaropi yogaa. Samucchinnaati pa.thamamaggaadinaa yathaaraha.m sammadeva ucchinnaa pahiinaa. Sesa.m vuttanayameva. Vimalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 76. All ties (yogaa) means: the four ties: the fetters of sensual pleasures, etc. (kaama -yogaadayo). I have cut out (samucchinnaa) means: I have abandoned, properly destroyed (samma-d-eva ucchinnaa) as is fitting by means of the first path, etc. The meaning of the rest has been explained. Here ends the commentary on the verses by Therii Vimalaa. peace, connie #69149 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A cremation, just like now! nilovg Hi Howard, The word considering can create misunderstandings. It is always considering the present reality, not thinking about something. And that is the beginning of the development of insight. Nothing distracting. We do not choose any place, time, occasion. There is always opportunity for this kind of considering and we better not waste time. Nina. Op 4-mrt-2007, om 4:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I was somewhat joking, Nina, but not entirely. When you spoke of > "considering", > I assumed you meant thinking over, which, if sustained, is just > distracting. #69150 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 137 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Maybe we can raise this question later when we get to 'contact'. I still don't get it: "what causes a dhamma to become an object of consciousness?" The first answer is that the dhamma impinges on sense door sensitive matter, but my question is, why does this particular dhamma impinge on the sensitive matter? I would guess that except for the last process before death the reasons for this are beyond the 24 conditional relations. Larry #69151 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 TGrand458@... Hi Nina I'm sorry you are not feeling 100%. My best wishes for you happiness. T.G. , I just select some part of your mail. My statements are not mine, I base what I say on the Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included and commentaries. So, I will not say: as I see it. See my Intro to rupas.I remember long ago you mentioned this also. TG: I always try to apply, what I experience in nature, to the teachings in the tipitika and vice versa. I would not feel comfortable "backing up" a Sutta, for example, without some measure of application/understand garnished from my own interacting experiences with the forces of nature. If I make a claim about the Four Great Elements, it is from my own observation of nature that the claim comes from. Of course I have been guided in interpretations by all the information I have absorbed in life. If the Sutta and my observation does not match, which is almost never the case, then I have to say that either I am at fault or the Sutta is. This conflict fortunately virtually never happens regarding the Suttas, and not even with the 7 canonical Abhidhamma texts... but often occurs with the interpretations I read in Abhidhamma "commentarial" thinking. (At the least, I think those latter interpretations often "overreach" what is certain as fact.) I don't take "personal" credit for any understanding. Its just conditions that are understanding whatever is understood to what ever degree it is understood. The greatest condition was the Buddha and the monks/translators that preserved that teaching. But at the same time, I don't disregard modern thinking or modern science either. Often times, modern thinking will confirm that correctness of the Suttas and add "texture" to them much like Abhidhamma does! Plants: there is no plane of existence of plants where you can be reborn, see the suttas. TG What "you" is there to be reborn? Just conditions/momentums are reborn. For a plant, those "momentums" are in the seeds are they not? At any rate, I think its reasonably safe to say they don't generate Kamma and perhaps are not "trapped" in a "field of suffering." But I don't know that for a 100% fact. (I'm not aware of the Suttas ever saying plants are not alive.) In my view, we only feed off living things, and plants grow and reproduce. For those 3 compelling reasons, I have no problem considering them alive. U Narada, Guide to Conditional Relations (p. 42): under strong dependence-conditiodependence-condition materiality is neve although it may appear to be so. He calls them external rupa. Long ago there were posts about this, and I mentioned that I am a member of the protection of nature society. To show that I care for plants and trees. Is this post perhaps retraceable under plant life? Nina. TG #69152 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 11:04 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 9, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Jonothan said that he should have studied the Dhamma more often, that he had regret about losing opportunities for study. Khun Sujin replied: "While talking about realities the 'perfection' of pańńĺ develops by itself, even if we do not name it or talk about the resolution to develop the perfections. You would not have come from Hong Kong to have discussions if you did not have the determination to develop pańńĺ. Your action shows it. When there is awareness arising just for a moment, "slipping in", and then "slipping out", it is also the development of the perfection of pańńĺ. Any moment can be a moment of developing the perfections. Listening is not always convenient, but one can still develop perfections when there is no opportunity for listening or studying." We may have regret about lack of study and we may wonder whether we should avoid particular situations like going out and enjoying ourselves, in order to have more time for study and for consideration of the Dhamma. There is still the idea of self which pushes us this way or that way. Instead we should just "follow" all realities which appear. Alan Weller wrote a letter to me about this subject which I quote: "I used to think that I should study the Dhamma and be alone rather than going out with friends. When we say this it seems as if there is no self indulgence when we do not go to the movies whereas in actual fact defilements are around all the time. The stories on the screen are no different from the stories in our everyday life. We have pleasant feeling or unpleasant feeling conditioned by what we see, no matter whether we are at the movies or not. All situations are the same in the sense that they consist of realities which are dukkha (unsatisfactory), anicca (impermanent) and anattĺ (non-self). Pleasant feeling has its own characteristic which can be understood, no matter where we are. We cannot force kusala by listening more to the Dhamma. Akusala is conditioned by accumulation, we have to accept it as it is. By listening to the Dhamma and considering it there are conditions for the development of kusala, slowly and gradually. We should follow our own accumulations wisely, sincerely, understanding them as they really are. ******** Nina. #69153 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 11:04 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 1, no 7 nilovg Dear friends, The above quoted sutta mentions, in connection with the element of wind, in-breathing and out-breathing. The “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 37) explains: “In-breath: wind in the nostrils entering in. Out-breath: wind in the nostrils issuing out.” We are breathing throughout life, but most of the time we are forgetful of realities, we cling to an idea of “my breath”. Breath is rúpa conditioned by citta and it presents itself where it touches the nosetip or upperlip. If there can be awareness of it the characteristics of hardness, softness, heat or motion can be experienced one at a time. However, breath is very subtle and it is most difficult to be aware of its characteristic. We read in the above quoted sutta that Sĺriputta explained that the external element of motion can become agitated and carry away villages. Its liability to change and its impermanence can be seen. Both the external and the internal element of motion are impermanent. As we have seen, the four great Elements always arise together, and each of them has the other three as its proximate cause. The “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 109) states that the four great Elements condition one another: the earth element acts as the foundation of the elements of water, fire and air; the water element acts as cohesion for the other three Great Elements; the fire element maintains the other three Great elements; the air element acts as distension of the other three Great Elements. We should remember that the element of water or cohesion cannot be experienced through the bodysense, only through the mind-door, and that the elements of earth, fire and wind can be directly experienced through the bodysense. The element of earth appears as hardness or softness, the element of fire as heat or cold and the element of wind as motion or pressure. Time and again rúpas such as hardness or heat impinge on the bodysense but we are forgetful of what things really are. We let ourselves be deceived by the outer appearance of things. The “Visuddhimagga” (XI, 100) states that the four Great Elements are “deceivers”: And just as the great creatures known as female spirits (yakkhiní) conceal their own fearfulness with a pleasing colour, shape and gesture to deceive beings, so too, these elements conceal each their own characteristics and function classed as hardness, etc., by means of a pleasing skin colour of women’s and men’s bodies, etc., and pleasing shapes of limbs and pleasing gestures of fingers, toes and eyebrows, and they deceive simple people by concealing their own functions and characteristics beginning with hardness and do not allow their individual essences to be seen.... ******* Nina. #69154 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 11:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 137 , objects. nilovg Hi Larry, what I wrote in conditions, object-condion may be of help: We may wonder why we experience a particular object and why we shift our attention from one object to another.The Atthasĺliní (Expositor II,Book II,Part I,Ch III,333,334)explains that the rúpas•which can be experienced through the senses become objects "by virtue of deliberate inclination''or "by virtue of intrusion''.We should remember that even following our own inclination is conditioned,that there is no self who can decide about the experiencing of objects.The Atthasĺliní gives examples of the experiencing of an object with "deliberate inclination'':when the bowl (of a monk)is filled with food and brought,one who takes up a lump and examines whether it is hard or soft,is considering only the element of solidity,although heat as well as motion are present.38 As an example of the experience of an object "by virtue of intrusion'',the Atthasĺliní states that he who slips,knocks his head against a tree or in eating bites on a stone,takes as object only solidity,on account of its intrusiveness,although heat and motion are present as well.Further on the "Atthasĺliní states: But how does the mind shift from an object?In one of two ways:-by one's wish, or by excess of (a new)object.To expand:-one who goes to festivities held in honour of monasteries,etc.,with the express wish of paying homage to the various shrines,to bhikkhus,images,and of seeing the works of carving and painting,and when he has paid his respects and seen one shrine or image,has a desire to pay homage to,and see another,and goes off.This is shifting by one's wish.And one who stands gazing at a great shrine like a silver mountain peak, when subsequently a full orchestra begins to play,releases the visible object and shifts to audible object;when flowers or scents possessing delightful odour are brought,he releases the audible object and shifts to the olfactory object.Thus the mind is said to shift owing to excess of (a new)object. When we study and consider the Dhamma we may not hear the sound of traffic, but when the sound is very loud we may hear it.Then that object is intrusive.It is the same when we suffer from violent pains.Then there is an object which is intrusive,we cannot think of anything else but the pain. Pleasant objects and unpleasant objects are experienced by kusala cittas and akusala cittas.Kusala citta as well as akusala citta can be object- condition for kusala citta or for akusala citta. Kusala citta can be the object of kusala citta. (etc. now the different types of objects for the different types of citta are dealt with.) ******* Nina. Op 4-mrt-2007, om 17:48 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Maybe we can raise this question later when we get to 'contact'. I > still don't get it: "what > causes a dhamma to become an object of consciousness?" The first > answer is that the > dhamma impinges on sense door sensitive matter, but my question is, > why does this > particular dhamma impinge on the sensitive matter? I would guess > that except for the last > process before death the reasons for this are beyond the 24 > conditional relations. #69155 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 12:50 pm Subject: The Practicality of Right Thought: A Trivial Everyday Example\Nina upasaka_howard Hi, Nina and all - Nina, I'm writing in support of one of the matters that you make much of in your posts, namely right thought and right understanding developed even at the merely intellectual level. This is truly a practical matter. It happens to be so that frequently I will obsess about truly minor matters that are annoying to me and that will require action on my part. (Ironically, I don't obsess all that much about more major major matters. LOL!) A case in point is my having heard from my son back at home - I'm still in Texas - that he inadvertently left on our kitchen lights (five 85-watt floodlights) for 2 days, and one of them shattered, sending glass all over the kitchen. I started thinking about why that shattering should have happened, whether there might not be an electirical problem, and I also started thinking about the difficulty I might have in removing the bulb remnant from the socket. Very silly business, but the thinking about this kept on repeating, and along with that some stress. This morning I was meditating, and early into it these dumb thoughts arose. At that point, there also occurred to me that all those thoughts were just stories, that all that really was going on at the moment was thinking, feeling of bodily sensations, seeing of shades of light and color through closed eyelids, and hearing of sounds - just a bunch of fleeting, inpersonal phenomena being observed. This recollection served to calm my mind, almost immediately cutting off the broken-glass story and modifying the mind states so that what was actually transpiring became far clearer. The internal ease then increased, it suffused the body, and the rest of the sitting was one of genunine ease, rest, and clarity. I emerged form the meditation rested, calm, and set for a lovely day. This is all, of course, quite trivial, but it does show the importance of study, contemplation, and discussion in cultivating right thought and right understanding so that they can come to the fore at times of need, which is really any time. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: a star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ #69156 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 1:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Group egberdina Hi James, On 04/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > > > > > > > And what > > > > is observable does not require faith to observe it. > > > > > > James: Not true. There must be faith that it is observable > before it > > > is observed. > > > > > > > I don't understand this. Could you expand on it? > > James: You wrote that the three characteristics (anicca, dukkha, > anatta) are observable so they don't need faith to observe them. > Have you personally observed anatta? Perhaps observation was the wrong word for me to use. Anatta is an understanding of causation, of how things come about. And it is particularly an understanding that there is no such thing as a self-existing agent, that acts. Strictly speaking, causation cannot be observed, but it can be understood. And, yes, I have understood anatta. I know I haven't, not really, > but I know that it is a reality because I have faith in the Triple > Gem. Unless one is a Buddha or Silent-Buddha, where there is no > learning from someone else, then faith is required to follow the > Buddha's path. > I think that taking the 3 signs on faith would be a very counterproductive exercise. Instead, I would recommend cultivating mindfulness, and just be very alert to what is happening. (You have already commented on the great files that Matheesha uploaded, so you know the drill). Be alert to the difference between an experience and an explanation, and in relation to anatta, especially the explanations along the lines of "I am doing ......" and see if you can actually find that I. > > > > The difficulty, then, becomes the Path. Is the aim of > discussion to > > > > coax others on to our understanding of what the path is ? > > > > > > James: Sure, why not? > > > > > > > What is preferable about one faith over another? > > James: Buddhism is true and other faiths are false. That is what > makes Buddhism preferable. > I think it would be very unwise to imagine blind faith as being a virtue. Truth is a connection, a relation between things, and it is a connection that each person has to make. One has to make aspects of Buddhism true in their life, it is a service to noone to gasbag about things one doesn't know as though one knows them. Sure, if one has faith in some aspect of the teaching, by all means say so (not forgetting to mention that one is speaking from faith), but it would be quite delusory to imagine that one faith-based position can be superior another one. Faith is only faith. There is nothing true or false about it. Kind Regards Herman #69157 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 1:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Kusala and akusala egberdina Hi Jon and Colette, On 05/03/07, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Colette > > > If kusala/akusala are concepts of illusory situations we find ourselves > in, it would not be possible to know whether one's own presently arising > consciousness is kusala or aksuala. > Yes, exactly right. Paraphrasing someone who'se name I do not remember "A/kusala consciousness is consciousness that is so labelled by consciousness". There is no knowing, in an objective sense, involved in that process at all. It amounts to no more than a ruler measuring itself. Kind Regards Herman #69158 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Practicality of Right Thought: A Trivial Everyday Example\Nina egberdina Hi Howard, I trust you are enjoying your stay in Texas. On 05/03/07, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Nina and all - > ==== A case in point is my having heard from my son back at home - I'm still in Texas - that he inadvertently left on our kitchen lights (five 85-watt floodlights) for 2 days, and one of them shattered, sending glass all over the kitchen. I started thinking about why that shattering should have happened, whether there might not be an electirical problem, and I also started thinking about the difficulty I might have in removing the bulb remnant from the socket. Very silly business, but the thinking about this kept on repeating, and along with that some stress. ==== A very real life example of trying to cross a bridge before you got to it :-). Needless to say, when you get home, there may be things you will be inclined to do in relation to the bulb remnant, the electrics, the glass shards that your son missed in cleaning up. But you're in Texas now, a very suitable place to be mindful of :-) Kind Regards Herman #69159 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 2:33 pm Subject: Re: Sisters - was New Group nichiconn Hey, Herman, No problem with how you read the Sister. Glad you like them, tho. Maybe I can dig up some explicitly doctrinaire stuff in relation to them for you later. For now, still selfishly yours in flight, conster #69160 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 2:29 pm Subject: Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nichiconn Hi, TG, First, I echo your sentiments regarding Nina. Then, Maybe if you think of how the rupas always arise in a group / kalapa of at least 8 characteristics, one of which is "nutriment"? There would be nourishment in sunlight, for example. Or how the deities could threaten to break the Buddha's fast by providing nourishment through his skin? How about minerals, speaking of munching down on rocks. peace, connie TG: In my view, we only feed off living things, and plants grow and reproduce. #69161 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (10) hantun1 Dear Phil, Phil: I have trouble with this because I live in Japan and how does one define a "monk" when "monks" in Japan marry, have children and drink Chivas whisky? I guess it is fair enough to feel that any monk who does not follow the precepts (or code of vinaya) is not a monk. Han: I would have the same trouble to define a "monk" when the "monk" marries, has children and drinks Chivas whisky. Fortunately, in Burma, the monks staying at the monasteries are very well supervised by the Sayadaws, and any monk who does not follow the vinaya rules will be asked to leave the monastery. You may find a lone monk wandering on the streets, but these type of monks are very, very few. ------------------------------ Han: I also like what you had written: Heedfullnes, appamada, is like an umbrella under which all wholesome states are given shelter to develop, under which the indriyas develop. There is a very good sutta in which the Buddha makes this very clear. Wholesome states go to fulfillment under the protection of appamada. Yes, there are quite a few suttas on appamada. The following is a short one on this topic. SN 3.17 Appamada Sutta: Heedfulness, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn03/sn03.017.than.html Quote: [At Savatthi. As he was sitting to one side, King Pasenadi Kosala said to the Blessed One: "Is there, lord, any one quality that keeps both kinds of benefit secure — benefits in this life & benefits in lives to come?" "There is one quality, great king, that keeps both kinds of benefit secure — benefits in this life & benefits in lives to come." "But what, lord, is that one quality...?" "Heedfulness, great king. Just as the footprints of all living beings with legs can be encompassed by the footprint of the elephant, and the elephant's footprint is declared to be supreme among them in terms of its great size; in the same way, heedfulness is the one quality that keeps both kinds of benefit secure — benefits in this life & benefits in lives to come."] End quote. ------------------------------ Phil: "We must be careful of our attitude" when doing anything. The Buddha made this very clear in his discourse to Rahula, his son. Before, during and after whatever we do, think, or speak. Han: I have read that somewhere. But I cannot remember in which sutta. I would be grateful if you could kindly give me the sutta reference where the Buddha instructed Rahula to think very carefully before he does, thinks, or speaks anything. These may be off topic, but they are very profitable to learn. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #69162 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 5:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 137 , objects. lbidd2 Hi Nina, This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks very much. "By deliberate inclination" or "by one's wish" seems similar to kamma vipaka but perhaps that isn't the correct term. "By virtue of intrusion" and "by excess of (a new) object" seems undetermined as to whether they arise as objects of consciousness because of kamma. Btw, am I correct in thinking the functional (kiriya) consciousnesses are not accounted for in the dependent arising formula because dependent arising is only concerned with kamma and its result? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry, > what I wrote in conditions, object-condion may be of help: #69163 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 5:36 pm Subject: Re: Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2, practice. buddhatrue Hi Nina, I am going to reply to this post but I read in your other post that you are having difficulty responding to posts due to ailments. So sorry to hear that! Anyway, don't feel obligated to respond. (This is just the same old argument, rehashed again and again...;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > ------ > N: my elaboration came from the Thai, given by a Thai professor, > Somphon, who is an expert in Pali. James: You really should emphasize that this is YOUR ELABORATION. So, this is your interpretaion and it is an elaboration of the Pali. Somphon, an expert in Pali, did not make this elaboration, you did. The word particular indicates: the > particular characteristics according to him. > Which characteristics? First the different characteristics such as > visible object, sound etc. and later on the three general > characteristics of realities. James: What word particular? There is a sort of grammatical error in this statement (the object of the modifier is missing) so I can't follow your meaning. > -------- > > J: From my limited Pali > knowledge, realizing the three characteristics of realities is > Vipassana. Vipassana is insight, Pa.tipatti is practice. > ------- > N: Goood you mention this. Vipassana is insight to be developed in > stages, it is a process of developing. James: Vipassana is insight- on that we agree. But then with a comma you write your next clause as if it matches the first clause "it is a process of developing". Vipassana is insight, it isn't a process of development. These are two different things. Thus, to me it is the same as > what is called pa.tipatti: development of the understanding of the > characteristics of realities. James: Well, I really don't see how you could possibly come to such a conclusion. Your logic is jumping all over the place! What value is it to say that one must really look at the Pali and then to completely change the inherent meaning of the Pali? I'm sorry to be harping so much on this, but so much depends on this. But again, don't bother to reply to this post if you are not so inclined or able. > -------- > Nina. Metta, James #69164 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 12:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/4/2007 3:41:07 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: Then, Maybe if you think of how the rupas always arise in a group / kalapa of at least 8 characteristics, one of which is "nutriment"? There would be nourishment in sunlight, for example. Or how the deities could threaten to break the Buddha's fast by providing nourishment through his skin? How about minerals, speaking of munching down on rocks. peace, connie Hi Connie Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're getting at with these questions. TG #69165 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 5:54 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (39) buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > Vimalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa / 2. The commentary on the verses of Theri > Vimalaa This is a very nice and worthwhile story. A tale of a prostitute who goes to Mahaa-Moggallaana to seduce him and is shamed into becoming a nun. It is a very important story to reflect on, I think. I especially like the way Mahaa-Moggallaana describes the putridness of the body to the prostitute because she is so enamoured with the body. However, it should be noted, that such a recollection can be dangerous if carried too far. It should only be used to counteract lust for the body, not to create aversion for the body. There is also another tale in the Canon of monks who carried this recollection too far, created aversion for the body, and committed suicide. Metta, James ps. Connie, you must go through great effort to type all of this out! This should be great merit for you. #69166 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 egberdina Hi Nina, On 04/03/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi TG (and Howard) and friends, > The below, quoted by Howard, I agree completely with. > I have to make my answer short. Because of some physical weakness and > a slight ailment due to old age I am forced to limit my computer > time. I always try to answer mails, (I find it not so nice not doing > that) but now I am not able to answer all mails or to go into all > points. I regret this, but I am forced to this by circumstances. > I'm sorry to hear that you are not 100%. It would be nice if by wishing you could become younger every day :-). Nice, but unrealistic. But I do hope that you become well very very soon. All the best to you and Lodewijk Herman PS My mother and father are both 77. They would save themselves a lot of travelling if they both just moved into the doctor's surgery. Old age, who needs it :-) #69167 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Practicality of Right Thought: A Trivial Everyday Example\Nina upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - Hi Howard, I trust you are enjoying your stay in Texas. ------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, yes - very much. :-) ------------------------------- On 05/03/07, upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Nina and all - > ==== A case in point is my having heard from my son back at home - I'm still in Texas - that he inadvertently left on our kitchen lights (five 85-watt floodlights) for 2 days, and one of them shattered, sending glass all over the kitchen. I started thinking about why that shattering should have happened, whether there might not be an electirical problem, and I also started thinking about the difficulty I might have in removing the bulb remnant from the socket. Very silly business, but the thinking about this kept on repeating, and along with that some stress. ==== A very real life example of trying to cross a bridge before you got to it :-). ---------------------------------- Howard: Yep! ;-) -------------------------------- Needless to say, when you get home, there may be things you will be inclined to do in relation to the bulb remnant, the electrics, the glass shards that your son missed in cleaning up. But you're in Texas now, a very suitable place to be mindful of :-) ---------------------------------- Howard: Yes, and now that's where my mind *is*! :-) --------------------------------- Kind Regards Herman =============================== With metta, Howard #69168 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 6:18 pm Subject: Faith (Re: New Group_ buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I think it would be very unwise to imagine blind faith as being a > virtue. Truth is a connection, a relation between things, and it is a > connection that each person has to make. One has to make aspects of > Buddhism true in their life, it is a service to noone to gasbag about > things one doesn't know as though one knows them. Sure, if one has > faith in some aspect of the teaching, by all means say so (not > forgetting to mention that one is speaking from faith), but it would > be quite delusory to imagine that one faith-based position can be > superior another one. Faith is only faith. There is nothing true or > false about it. You are approaching this issue of faith in the same manner that you criticize in those you label "anattaists". This is, existence is not either or- people either exist or don't exist- because we are taught dependent origination. The same goes for faith. Here you are saying that one must have either blind faith or one must verify absolutely everything for oneself- these are both extremes to be avoided. Perhaps you might like to read this article by Bhikkhu Bodhi, which states in part: "When we try to determine our own relationship with the Dhamma, eventually we find ourselves challenged to make sense out of its two seemingly irreconcilable faces: the empiricist face turned to the world, telling us to investigate and verify things for ourselves, and the religious face turned to the Beyond, advising us to dispel our doubts and place trust in the Teacher and his Teaching. One way we can resolve this dilemma is by accepting only one face of the Dhamma as authentic and rejecting the other as spurious or superfluous. Thus, with traditional Buddhist pietism, we can embrace the religious side of faith and devotion, but shy off from the hard- headed world-view and the task of critical inquiry; or, with modern Buddhist apologetics, we can extol the Dhamma's empiricism and resemblance to science, but stumble embarrassingly over the religious side. Yet reflection on what a genuine Buddhist spirituality truly requires, makes it clear that both faces of the Dhamma are equally authentic and that both must be taken into account. If we fail to do so, not only do we risk adopting a lopsided view of the teaching, but our own involvement with the Dhamma is likely to be hampered by partiality and conflicting attitudes." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_02.html Metta, James PS. I don't know why, but posting to you lately makes me extremely tired (you must be giving out some bad vibes!? ;-)). So, grandpa needs to go take a nap again! ;-)) #69169 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 6:26 pm Subject: Starting of a World System robmoult Hi All, I have heard on multiple occasions the traditional explanation of the starting events surrounding the starting of a world system. Basically: - Mahabrahma is first - Retinue follows and taste the earth element of the new world system - Retinue are reborn as lower beings because of the resultant craving I am trying to track the source of this explanation. I do not think that it is from the Suttas. Does anybody know if this is included in a commentary? I believe that the explanation is included in the Mahavastu, but that is a Mahasanghika text, not a Theravada text. Metta, Rob M :-) #69170 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Faith (Re: New Group_ egberdina Hi James, On 05/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > Thanks for the B Bodhi link. A quick glance tells me it stands in sharp contrast to what my post was in answer to. > James: Buddhism is true and other faiths are false. That is what > makes Buddhism preferable. I'm going to do a Phil on this one and say no more about it. Sleep tight :-) Herman #69171 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 7:10 pm Subject: Re: Starting of a World System nichiconn Hi, RobM, try DN 27 - Agga~n~na Sutta, "On Knowledge of Beginnings"... one of my favourites, btw. peace, connie I have heard on multiple occasions the traditional explanation of the starting events surrounding the starting of a world system. Basically: - Mahabrahma is first - Retinue follows and taste the earth element of the new world system - Retinue are reborn as lower beings because of the resultant craving #69172 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 7:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Faith (Re: New Group_ buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi James, > > On 05/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > > Thanks for the B Bodhi link. A quick glance tells me it stands in > sharp contrast to what my post was in answer to. > > > James: Buddhism is true and other faiths are false. That is what > > makes Buddhism preferable. > > I'm going to do a Phil on this one and say no more about it. > > Sleep tight :-) > Okay, I am done with my nap. I only needed an hour. I love a job where I can just take a nap when I need one! ;-)) Hmmm…you take a `quick glance' at the article, say it stands in sharp contrast to what you were replying to (without further explanation), and then declare that you are going to drop this thread. Well, not like you at all, Herman. No wonder you are making me exhausted…this is a touchy subject for you. Not a big deal…we all have our touchy subjects. Okay, since I have the last word, let me explain again. Yes, I have complete faith in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. I believe that it is the only TRUE religion/philosophy in existence. My faith is unshakable. Not only does Buddhism describe the world and experience, but it also offers a way to escape suffering. It is supreme, the tops, the Tower of Pisa!! ;-)) For you, such faith is by necessity `blind faith'. I gave you an article which explained why such faith isn't `blind faith'. Herman, I am a thinking, rational person. I am widely read and I have three college degrees. I think you have some respect for me and my viewpoint so let me tell you: there is nothing wrong or stupid with having faith in the Triple Gem! Okay, let me offer a few more quotes from the article, since you didn't give it your full attention: "Investigation and critical inquiry, cool and uncommitted, constitute the first step toward wisdom… But doubt and questioning cannot continue indefinitely. Once we have decided that the Dhamma is to be our vehicle to spiritual freedom, we have to step on board: we must leave our hesitancy behind and enter the course of training which will lead us from faith to liberating vision." "For those who approach the Dhamma in quest of intellectual [i.e. Herman ;-))] or emotional gratification, inevitably it will show two faces, and one will always remain a puzzle." Metta, James #69173 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 8:58 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (39) nichiconn Hi James, J: ps. Connie, you must go through great effort to type all of this out! This should be great merit for you. C: Typos and all, eh? Mom's still got the book, but I'm betting "mind"s here should be "mine": << 73. Having decorated this body, very variegated, deceiving fools (baala-laapana.m) means: this body of mind, full of various kinds of ordure, is disgusting, because of the saying of fools (baalaana.m laapanato vaacanato), "It is mind," [therefore] deceiving fools; >> One of the parts of the Lotus Sutra that I like talks about the joy of the 50th person down the line hearing even a phrase of it & I figure if that's even close to true, how much greater it must be to hear Theravada teachings. J: I especially like the way Mahaa-Moggallaana describes the putridness of the body to the prostitute because she is so enamoured with the body. However, it should be noted, that such a recollection can be dangerous if carried too far. It should only be used to counteract lust for the body, not to create aversion for the body. There is also another tale in the Canon of monks who carried this recollection too far, created aversion for the body, and committed suicide. C: Wasn't there also something about them having committed some offense together in a past life playing a part in that, too? I don't remember right now. Right, dispassion is to be sought. I agree, the sotapanna still hasn't overcome lust but still has some perception that carnal pleasures are agreeable. I just like the cold shower routine. Life's no more desireable than a piece of excrement on the fingertip, sense pleasures "enjoyable only through a pervesion of perception like the adornments of a madman", etc. But for now, I'm running up for another piece of peanut butter fudge. peace, connie p.s. check out Ubbarii: www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/u/ubbarii.htm I call my motorbike Piglet after her (not to mention making fun of the HOGs) #69174 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 8:58 pm Subject: Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nichiconn Sorry, TG, Have you read Nina's SPD? Basic "chemistry" of rupa... any given rupa consists of a number of characteristics, with one being predominant at any given time. If there is hardness (etc) as the predominant aspect, the others must still be there to support it; none arises alone. In the simplest group, there are the four primaries: 'earth, fire, wind, water'; plus four derived rupas: 'colour, smell, taste, nutrition'. My point was that we don't just get 'nutrition' from (once) living things. I don't really want to push it, but ultimately, the fact of the matter is, we don't get nutrition from plants, rocks or animals at all, but from the rupa called 'nutrition'. I mentioned minerals because they are more like what we normally think of as 'earth'; the sun, heat (and light as colour) - which we need to properly absorb certain vitamins, I believe; and the deities saying they would cause nutriment to be absorbed through the then bodhisattas skin because there was no 'food' as we normally think of it involved. Yes, I'm of the "plants are not living beings" school of thought. They do not possess the nine rupas that arise specifically from kamma. Yes, even that so-called carnivorous venus fly trap operates on heat. hope that's more helpful. connie TG: In my view, we only feed off living things, and plants grow and reproduce. #69175 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 9:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Faith (Re: New Group_ egberdina Hi James, On 05/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > As I said, I'm doing a Phil. Which means I can post even when I said I wouldn't :-) I like what you wrote very much, and it is clear that I am not making myself very clear. You wrote: Buddhism is true AND OTHER FAITHS ARE FALSE. That is what makes Buddhism preferable. I have no problems with your, or anyone elses, faith in whatever flavour of Buddhism you pursue (especially if it is qualified as being faith). My problem lies in your faith that every other faith is false. Does that strenghten your own faith? A blanket attitude of "You're wrong if you're not my kind of Buddhist" is rather ugly to me, to be quite frank (And I'm not Frank, I'm Herman :-)). Kind Regards Herman #69176 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 9:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sisters - was New Group egberdina Hey, the Conster, On 05/03/07, connie wrote: > Hey, Herman, > No problem with how you read the Sister. Glad you like them, tho. Maybe > I can dig up some explicitly doctrinaire stuff in relation to them for you > later. For now, still selfishly yours in flight, > conster > Thanks for the offer, but no need to do that on my account. I like what and how you write just fine. Cheers Herman #69177 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 9:25 pm Subject: The biological self egberdina Hi all, Before ya'll quickly draw your anatta swords from your scabbards, I am talking about the self as identity here, not as agent. Big difference. It would be interesting to hear the same account in terms of kalapas of rupas and the like, but these days it is well understood that each healthy human body distinguishes between what is self and what is not-self. This is the basis for the auto-immune system, which destroys all foreign (not-self) bodies that attempt to enter the body. This way disease is prevented. The practice of immunisation, which has saved literal millions from death by infectious diseases such as smallpox, is also based on this mechanism. But when the auto-immune system isn't working properly, in which case there is no clear self / not-self distinction, the body attacks itself, and you get diseases like rheumatoid arthritis, or lupus, or AIDS. Clearly, advanced life forms are not possible without the distinction self/not-self. Oh, and justabout wherever you go, and whatever you do, you leave behind DNA traces that uniquely identify the self of your very specific body. So don't be bad now, you hear, if only because you will get caught :-) Kind Regards Herman #69178 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 10:30 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > I can't think of one sutta that backs up the "arising and immediately > ceasing" outlook. ..... S: Do any of the following help? 1. AN i.10 : “I consider, bhikkhus, that there is no phenomenon that comes and goes so quickly as mind. It is not easy to find a simile to show how quickly mind comes and goes.” .... 2. SN ii.95 “Just as a monkey faring through the dense forest catches one bough, and, letting it go, catches another, and then another, even so bhikkhus, with what is called thought, or mind , or consciousness, by day as by night, one arises when another perishes.” “Therein, bhikkhu, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness....Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering......” ...... 3.Visuddhimagga, XX94 under ‘Knowledge or Rise and Fall’, quoting Patisambhidamagga i.54: “..Here in the text: ‘How is it that understanding of contemplating present states’ change is knowledge of contemplation of rise and fall? Present materiality is born [materiality]; the characteristic of its generation is rise, the characteristic of its change is fall, the contemplation is knowledge. Present feeling ... perception .... formations......consciousness....eye....(etc)....Present becoming is born [becoming]; the characteristic of its generation is rise, the characteristic of its change is fall, the contemplation is knowledge.(Ps.i54)” .... 4. Visuddhimagga, V11139, quoting Maha Niddesa 1.42 ' "Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return...'"Vism, V111 39 ..... 5. Phena Sutta, SN 22:95 "Form is like a lump of foam; Feeling like a water bubble; Perception is like a mirage; Volitions like a plantain trunk. And consciousness like an illusion..." .... [note 190: "Spk: a bubble (bubbu.la) is feeble and cannot be grasped, for it breaks up as soon as it is seized; so too feeling is feeble and cannot be grasped as permanent and stable. As a bubble arises and ceases in a drop of water and does not last long, so too with feeling: 100,000 `ko.tis' of feelings arise and cease in the time of a fingersnap (one ko.ti = 10 million).] .... 5. SN 20.6 Dhanuggaha Sutta The Archer Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, suppose there were four strong archers — well-trained, practiced, & drilled — standing in the four directions, and a man were to come along saying, 'I will catch & bring down the arrows let fly by these four strong archers — well-trained, practiced, & drilled — before they have fallen to the ground.' What do you think? Would that be enough to call him a swift man, endowed with the foremost speed?" "Even if he were to catch & bring down the arrows let fly by one archer — well-trained, practiced, & drilled — before they fell to the ground, lord, that would be enough to call him a swift man, endowed with the foremost speed, to say nothing of four such archers." "Faster than the speed of that man, monks, is the speed of the sun & moon. Faster than the speed of that man, faster than the speed of the sun & moon, is the speed of the devas who rush ahead of the sun & moon. Faster than the speed of that man, faster than the speed of the sun & moon, faster than the speed of the devas who rush ahead of the sun & moon, the force of one's life span comes to an end. Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will live heedfully.' That's how you should train yourselves." ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #69179 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 5:51 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/4/2007 11:30:40 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > I can't think of one sutta that backs up the "arising and immediately > ceasing" outlook. ..... S: Do any of the following help? Hi Sarah Not really. Nothing you posted suggests anything (regarding impermanence) other than "continuous change." Of course formations are different from one moment to the next if things are changing continuously. That doesn't mean the formations or phenomena "pop on and off." What it means is that phenomena are constantly moving in relation to and in dependence on other phenomena. Generally the suttas will describe it as -- arising, changing while persisting, then ceasing. Its that "changing while persisting" part that indicates "continuous change." Not to mention other references I've posted recently that actually describe formations as "slowly/continuously altering." Move your arm up and down if you want to notice continuous change. You won't notice it popping on and off during that process. What is the change in moving the arm? There are a variety of changes occurring. But perhaps the most obvious is the change in the formation/configuration of the body and its relationship to exterior formations. TG #69180 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 10:57 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 rjkjp1 Dear TG If I read you correctly you think citta and mentality are actually types of matter. And that there is no arisng and falling of matter or mentality. How does your theory explain that one mght die as a human and then be reborn instantly - without any time interval-as a God in a distant world. Isn't that more than a slowly continuous change? And how could matter move so fast ? Robert #69181 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 11:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Faith (Re: New Group_ buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi James, > > On 05/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > > > As I said, I'm doing a Phil. Which means I can post even when I said I > wouldn't :-) > > I like what you wrote very much, and it is clear that I am not making > myself very clear. > > You wrote: Buddhism is true AND OTHER FAITHS ARE FALSE. That is what > makes Buddhism preferable. > > I have no problems with your, or anyone elses, faith in whatever > flavour of Buddhism you pursue (especially if it is qualified as being > faith). My problem lies in your faith that every other faith is false. Well, I am getting a little confused here because "faith" can be used as a verb or as a noun. As a verb, faith is relatively equal. Faith in Christianity is equal to faith in Buddhism. As a noun, faiths are not equal. You really expect a Buddhist to say that all faiths are equal and correct? That's just pandering. Frankly, I don't really care if it offends your sensibilities or not. Buddhism is the only true faith- all of the others are false. Christianity, Islam, Judiasm, Hinduism, etc., etc., etc. False, false, false. :-) Metta, James #69182 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] gentle wisdom, part III (on gratitude) sarahprocter... Dear Joel & all, I wonder if you've come across further quotes you find helpful? --- joelaltman26 wrote: > Dear friends in dhamma, > > Khun Sujin said: > > "How can such visible object appear at that very moment without > conditions? to be pleasant or unpleasant? > We cannot select. .... S: I thought of you and this quote when I heard K.Sujin discussing more about not selecting objects and how no one can help clinging, but how we need to know what kind of clinging can hinder the development of understanding.* For example, (she was saying), it's our nature to cling after seeing, hearing and tasting, but there can be an understanding of the conditions for attachment to certain objects because our accumulations choose this or that kind of food (entertainment, exercise, work, company) and so on. However, when there's an idea of liking to have pleasant feeling or experience by sitting and concentrating on an object, can we still see the accumulations at such a time? Are we keen enough to know that even thinking in that particular way about practice or hoping to have that pleasant feeling is conditioned, just like when there is anger, attachment or any kind of reality? At those times of special concentrating, isn't it true that we'd like to have the pleasantntess or concentration, so we try very hard to have it and this conditions attachment and aversion when it isn't there? In other words, (K.Sujin was still stressing), there is no understanding of realities and of tendencies that we've accumulated at all. At such a time of special practice or focus, it's not like the natural moments of life, so it can hinder the development of understanding because it's not the moment of being aware and understanding that moment as not-self. Instead, the self is trying so hard to have awareness or concentration or pleasantness. On the other hand, when there's right understanding now, it's apparent that no one can stop seeing or hearing from arising. The goal is to understand each moment as a conditioned reality and this is the way to eliminate the idea of self. So there can be moments of understanding even the thinking or wanting to sit as just a moment, a reality as not self. However, it's not enough because it has to develop on and on and on until there's less and less doubt about the characteristics of nama and rupa. For example (a little later), K.Sujin stresses that there's only hardness appearing 'from head to toe'. 'So get closer and closer to understanding elements, dhatu, which don't belong to anyone'. When hardness appears, there is no thing, no idea about different things. There is 'no seeing, no hearing.....'no world, no me!' 'Everything is exactly like now!' ***** Metta, Sarah *(These are not exact quotes as they are from some cryptic notes made while listening ealier which I've elaborated on a little). Btw, We will very soon be uploading another set of newly edited recordings. ============ #69183 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 9:54 pm Subject: Focusing on Feeling! bhikkhu5 Friends: Awareness of Feeling just as Contact Response! The Blessed Buddha said regarding Contemplation of Feeling: How, Bhikkhus and Friends, does a one live reflecting on feelings as feeling? When feeling a pleasant feeling, one notes and understands: I feel a pleasant feeling! When feeling a painful feeling, one notes & understands: I feel a painful feeling. When feeling a quite neutral & neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, one notes and understands: I feel a neutral neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. When feeling a worldly pleasant feeling, one notes and understands: I feel a worldly pleasant feeling. When feeling a pleasant feeling not of this world, one notes & understands: I feel a pleasant feeling not of this world. When feeling a worldly painful feeling, one notes and understands: I feel a worldly painful feeling. When feeling a painful feeling not of this world, one notes and understands: I feel a painful feeling not of this world . When feeling a worldly neutral feeling, which is neither-painful-nor-pleasant, one notes and understands: I feel a worldly neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling. When feeling a neutral feeling not of this world, one understands: I feel a neutral feeling not of this world. This is how a Bhikkhu abides reflecting on feelings just as feeling... Source Text: Majjhima Nikaya 10: Satipatthana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html Worldly feeling arises from sense contact with this world... Feeling not of this world arises from withdrawal from this world... The cause of the emergence of momentary feeling is contact! The cause of the ceasing of this feeling is the ceasing of contact! Contact is the meeting of 3: Object, sense-organ and attention! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69184 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/4/2007 10:00:23 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: Sorry, TG, Have you read Nina's SPD? TG: No. Just ADL. Basic "chemistry" of rupa... any given rupa consists of a number of characteristics, with one being predominant at any given time. If there is hardness (etc) as the predominant aspect, the others must still be there to support it; none arises alone. In the simplest group, there are the four primaries: 'earth, fire, wind, water'; plus four derived rupas: 'colour, smell, taste, nutrition'. Yes, I'm of the "plants are not living beings" school of thought. They do not possess the nine rupas that arise specifically from kamma. Yes, even that so-called carnivorous venus fly trap operates on heat. TG: Wait a minute there. The issue was not whether plants were "living beings." The issue was whether they were alive at all. Nina believes plants are not alive. Do you as well? hope that's more helpful. connie TG #69185 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 6:28 pm Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 TGrand458@... Hi Robert In a message dated 3/4/2007 11:58:03 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: Dear TG If I read you correctly you think citta and mentality are actually types of matter. TG: No Robert, I think they are types of energy. And that there is no arisng and falling of matter or mentality. TG: No again. There is arising and falling of phenomena. (I do not claim there is or is not matter however.) How does your theory explain that one mght die as a human and then be reborn instantly - without any time interval-as a God in a distant world. TG: I don't have a hard and fast theory regarding "rebirth mechanics." I generally think kamma is accumulated and stored sort of like a charge in a battery or a charge built up in the atmosphere. At the time of death, perhaps that charge is released into a new life system. I don't know how it works but I tacitly believe it does work...i.e., that there is rebirth. Isn't that more than a slowly continuous change? TG: Hey changes can be extremely fast to. But I still see them as being continuous analog type change; as opposed to a digital on and off change. And how could matter move so fast ? 455 Hemi engine? ;-) Robert TG #69186 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,136 sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Herman & chocolate-cakers), I thought you expressed it well below: --- upasaka@... wrote: > >Herman: From the video of Saddam's hanging, it would seem this "evil-doer" had > > no particular > > demons to face on his brutal death. > > > > I think the "science" of rebirth is perpetrated on the ignorant by the > > reprehensible. .... Howard: > What Budhaghosa said there notwithstanding, it has been my > understanding of the Buddha's teaching that it isn't easily predictable > what particular > kamma vipaka will come to the fore at the end of one's life. Under the > assumption of there possibly being a huge "store" of kamma awaiting > fruition, a person > who has acted monstrously in a given lifetime might nevertheless go on > to a > heaven realm or to a pleasant human birth at the end of that life due to > > auspicious vipaka coming to the fore. From what I've read of the > Buddha's indicating > the near-impossibility of attempting to figure out the complexities of > kamma, > there really is no "science of rebirth" at all. .... S: This is the point. We don't know for the outer appearance and whatever the result, we know kamma is very, very fair! I liked your comments about feeling anxious and having the long stories running about the broken light and then appreciating that it's just a moment of thinking now. So whether eating chocolate cake, listening to monks, standing with a noose round one's neck, any kind of cittas can arise, depending on accumulations for such. And of course - worrying about what they may be for ourselves or others just accumulates more worry for such! Metta, Sarah ======= #69187 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 4, 2007 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner sarahprocter... Dear Antony (Han & all), You raise good points as usual. Thanks for sharing your writings. --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear Group, > > I have an important point about dana I'd like to discuss. > > Ven Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda (1919-2006) wrote: > "A distinction can be made between giving as a normal act of > generosity and dana. > > In the normal act of generosity a person gives out of compassion and > kindness when he realizes that someone else is in need of help, and he > is in the position to offer the help. > > When a person performs dana, he gives as a means of cultivating > charity as a virtue and of reducing his own selfishness and craving. > He exercises wisdom when he recalls that dana is a very important > quality to be practised by every Buddhist, and is the first perfection > (paramita) practised by the Buddha in many of His previous births in > search for Enlightenment. A person performs dana in appreciation of > the great qualities and virtues of the Triple Gem." > http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/168.htm > > Antony: The "normal" act of generosity described sounds great to me. > Selfless. What more could you ask for? > Surely it is the best motive for giving, rather than thinking about > "dana" as my virtue, my wisdom, my paramita. .... S: I agree with you that the 'normal' act of generosity sounds great and selfless. I also agree that thinking about 'dana' as *my* virtue, my wisdom, my paramita doesn't sound very selfless. I think the point being stressed, however, is that it is only when the value and true nature of dana is appreciated and understood that it will be cultivated and developed without fail. I liked the comment and quote you gave on Visakha's 'profound dana wisdom'. She really appreciated the value of dana as a parami and gave selflessly, just wishing to benefit others as you commented. She knew it was just dana, not hers, having eradicated all wrong idea of self, of Visakha. It is insight which leads to the greatest of generosity or dana. Such paramis cannot be developed without it. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for your links to Sanghika dana as well. Your research and input is always appreciated! ============== #69188 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A final venting from phil, probably. sarahprocter... Hi Mike (Jiw & all), --- "m. nease" wrote: > >S: Atta sa~n~na is not the same as atta di.t.thi, simply because it > refers to > > sa~n~na, not to di.t.thi. Different cetasikas with different > functions. As > > you all know well, sa~n~na marks and remembers, so in this case it's > > marking and remembering what is experienced as 'atta'. > >Mike: OK--but you wouldn't say that it's marking and remembering the > perception of > self (i.e. a concept rather than a dhamma?) .... S: Yes, it is. Just like the marking now of the visible object and hardness as a thing, a computer. Remembering 'atta'. Did I misunderstand you? .... > > > Jiw had mentioned that on a trip there'd been a lot of worry about > past > > and future akusala kamma and that A.Sujin had mentioned it was 'caused > > from attasa~n~na, the memory of me-mine over and over.' > > Yes, a very apt comment, I thought. I've been preoccupied with it ever > since (thanks again, Khun Siw). .... S: This relates to the other posts I just sent. When they are just cittas, cetasikas and rupas (not me-mine), that arise and fall away, what is there to worry about? Thanks to you both for your input here. Metta, Sarah > >S: In other words, because of remembrance, sa~n~na of atta (accompanying > the di.t.thi), there's dwelling on and on about the story of *me* and *my > > kilesa* - wanting *me* and *my kilesa* to be another way and taking > them > > for *mine*. > >M: Sure. <....> #69189 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 12:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Faith (Re: New Group_ egberdina Hi James (and RobK), On 05/03/07, buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Herman, > You really expect a Buddhist to say that all faiths are > equal and correct? That's just pandering. It would make a lot of sense to me that a Buddhist who didn't know said he didn't know, or who wasn't sure would say he wasn't sure, or who liked to believe something said he liked to believe something, or who had reason to believe would say he had reason to believe. Frankly, I don't really > care if it offends your sensibilities or not. You're not offending my sensibilities, rest assured. The view "I'm right by faith, you're wrong by faith" is ugly, not because it offends my sensibilities, but because it makes for an ugly world. Buddhism is the only > true faith- all of the others are false. Christianity, Islam, > Judiasm, Hinduism, etc., etc., etc. False, false, false. :-) > Case in point being a very ugly slanging match between Buddhists, including bhikkhus, about the existence or otherwise of bardo states, which I stumbled upon at another site. Just now we have RobK arguing a point about impermanence, solely on the basis of his faith in the instantaneous nature of rebirth. If RobK has some privileged experience of rebirth as a God in another realm, and how long that took, I'm all ears. But if he, or you, or anyone else who publicly assumes a privileged position can fall back only on their faith, that is the makings of an ugly world. It is not only Christians, Muslims, Jews or Hindus that are made wrong through self-righteousness. It is Buddhists as well. Cheers Herman #69190 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 1:35 am Subject: Daana Corner (11) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “The Practice of Giving” by Susan Elbaum Jootla. Susan wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: * The Factor of Volition * The Recipient of Gifts * The Objects to be Given * The Perfection of Giving * The Ultimate Goal of Giving The following is *The Objects to be Given* (the first half) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The Objects to be Given The third factor involved in giving is the gift itself, which can be either material or immaterial. Dhamma-dana, the gift of the noble teachings, is said by the Buddha to excel all other gifts (Dhammapada, 354). Those who expound his teachings — monks who preach sermons or recite from the Tipitaka, teachers of meditation — frequently share the Truth, thus practicing the highest kind of generosity. Those of us who are not qualified to teach the Dhamma can give the gift of the Dhamma in other ways. We can donate Dhamma books or pay for the translation or publication of a rare or new manuscript propagating the Buddha-Word. We can discuss the Dhamma informally and encourage others to keep precepts or to take up meditation. We might write an explanation of some aspect of the Dhamma for the benefit of others. Giving cash or labor to a meditation center or helping support a meditation teacher can also be considered the gift of the Dhamma, as the purpose of the center and the teacher is the transmission of the Buddha's teaching. The most common type of gift is material things. A material object need not have a high monetary value for it to bring great results, as the story of Sivali and the honeycomb illustrates. If a poor man gives a monk the cup of rice that was to be his only food for the day, the man is making a great donation which may bear abundant fruit, while if a prosperous merchant, knowing in advance that the monk was coming for alms, were to give the same small portion of rice, he would reap meager fruits. We should try to give things whose quality is at least as good as those we use ourselves, like the people of Burma, who buy the best fruits on the market as gifts for the monks although these fruits are much too expensive for them to consume themselves. Gifts to the Sangha may consist of food, robes, medicine or monasteries, each of which has a wide range. The limits are set by the rules of the Vinaya to keep the Bhikkhu Sangha pure and strong. Lay people who understand the monks' rules can earn vast merit by donating the proper things at the proper time to the order of monks and nuns. ------------------------------ The second half of *The Objects to be Given* will be in the next post. Han #69191 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 2:02 am Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 nilovg Hi TG, When moving your arm you may be thinking of changes. But the infinitely tiny rupas of what we call arm are arising and falling away within splitseconds without you noticing it. There must be a change each splitsecond, otherwise there could not be a noticeable change after a long time. Nina. Op 5-mrt-2007, om 7:51 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > Move your arm up and down if you want to notice continuous change. You > won't notice it popping on and off during that process. What is the > change in > moving the arm? There are a variety of changes occurring. #69192 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Q. rupas, introduction, nimitta. nilovg Dear Scott, --------- Scott: Yes, sorry, naama as in 'name', not 'mentality' or 'mind'. Nimitta is 'characteristic' not 'name', hence not pa~n~natti. ------ N: I would not say that nimitta itself is characteristic. We experience the sign of visible object, and in fact visible object has fallen away and there is again visible object. We do not know which one exactly is experienced now, but it has a characteristic. ------- . She said that only nibbaana is animitta, without nimitta. --------- S: It doesn't matter, in a way, does it, since it is the characteristic that is real. And, also, more importantly, to worry too much about this is just thinking, and in particular thinking about a person who practises towards a goal. Not the way it is. -------- N: Yes,I have such thoughts creep in: me practising to reach the goal. ------- N: "I would rather say: a characteristic is experienced. Experienced by sati and pa~n~naa, even a beginning pa~n~naa. It has to begin. Pali: paajaanati. Nimitta is also known, but this is more like dreaming, she said. Like a dream vision." -------- S: I notice that, when considering Dhamma, there is an intricate, recursive sort of pattern in which the various Paa.li terms circle around and fit in to each other. When the English is introduced it is often imprecise, such as with the word 'experience' and then, if one doesn't keep to as close to the original linguistic source as it is possible to do, all sorts of widely disparate nuances can enter in and distort the meaning. ------- N: Yes I think of pa.tipatti, practice, I am discussing with James. People think it means doing something specific. What do you think? -------- S: And back to nimitta, for a moment, given that it is 'like a dream', I'm assuming that 'one' wakes up eventually. ------ N: When nibbaana is attained one knows what animitta is. One wakes up. I shall look more at my nimitta notes. Nina. #69193 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 3:50 am Subject: Re: Request for help with Pali pronunciation dhammanando_... Dear Jon, > As a matter of interest, is there such a thing as a standard > 'international' pronunciation I would say that the way Pali is pronounced by Sinhalese and Indians is the de facto international standard of pronunciation. Firstly, it comes closest to the phonetic descriptions given in the ancient grammars, with only a few sounds diverging from this. By contrast, in the typical Thai, Burmese, Khmer and Lao pronunciations, more than half of the Pali alphabet gets mispronounced. Also, the SE Asian regional pronunciations of Pali differ so much as to be not mutually intelligible, so if monks from these countries meet and Pali is their only shared language, they will all make an effort to pronounce it according to the old grammars, in effect making their pronunciation like that of the Sinhalese. Secondly, the Sinhala-style pronunciation is what is normally taught in the Pali courses in western universities. > and, if so, how would the modern Sinhala-style in the files you have > linked for us vary from that standard? In modern Sinhala and Indian pronunciation the Pali consonant 'c' tends to be realized as an unvoiced alveolar affricate (like the ch in 'church') and 'j' is realized as the voiced equivalent of this (like the j in 'jar'). Indeed many modern introductions to Pali give the instruction to pronounce the consonsants in just this way. But these consonants are in fact supposed to be palatals in Pali. Some years ago when I looked into this, I found that there are only two European languages that contain both of these palatal sounds: Turkish and Black British English (a derivative of Jamaican Creole). And so the Pali 'c' should be pronounced as Bob Marley pronounces the 'c' in Caribbean when he sings 'Buffalo Soldier'; Pali 'j' should sound like Linton Kwesi Johnson saying the 'g' in ghaddah ('gather') when he sings 'Di Great Insohreckshan'. (Apologies to those who aren't reggae fans, but I can't think of any other way to describe it without resorting to a lot of phonetics jargon). Best wishes, Dhammanando #69194 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 4:37 am Subject: Re: Q. rupas, introduction, nimitta. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks again for your reply. I'm glad to be able to discuss with you. When you mentioned your need to slow down I was reminded of the 'slow impermanence' discussed lately, and thought of a time when I would no longer have this chance to discuss back and forth in 'real-time'. Dhamma is enduring. I appreciate the way Dhamma is expressed by you. I consider I meet Dhamma in the one who speaks it and that this is what it means to me when one is said to be kalyaanamitta. I hope you are able to feel well. N: "I would not say that nimitta itself is characteristic. We experience the sign of visible object, and in fact visible object has fallen away and there is again visible object. We do not know which one exactly is experienced now, but it has a characteristic." Scott: Okay, this is a good clarification. Nimitta has a characteristic; it is a sign. The colour that is cognised is colour but not the colour 'now'. N: "Kh Sujin said that even when vipassana ~naa.na experiences the arising and falling away of a dhamma, there is still a short moment of thinking of a nimitta in between. She said: . She said that only nibbaana is animitta, without nimitta." Scott: The above adds to the meaning of nimitta but, not clearly understanding nibbaana, I can't say in what way. I guess nimitta is a natural consequence of the conditioned elements whose function is perception and the conditioned elements which are objects of this perception. My guess also is that when nibbaana becomes the object of the dhammas with perception as function - the magga-phala-citta, for example - nibbaana then must be seen directly since it has no nimitta. I've probably got that one wrong. N: Yes I think of pa.tipatti, practice, I am discussing with James. People think it means doing something specific. What do you think? Scott: Well, as to what I think, not much that is right. I've pasted back in your definitions based on the Paa.li: N: "...The translation of pa.tipatti: reach the particular, that is: the particular characteristics that appear. Pa.tipatti is not: doing something. Usually we go about being forgetful, but sometimes, without trying, heat or hardness presents itself. We can learn to be aware of them so that they are seen as rupas, not belonging to my body ... Patti is: to reach or to attain. Pa.ti has many meanings, it can mean: towards. Pa.tipatti: to follow a particular way. That is, (elaboration) to realize the three general characteristics of realities. I think that wise attention is very important. Association with the sappurisa, which stands for an enlightened person. Listening to the Dhamma, wise attention (yoniso manaasikaaro) and practice in accordance with the dhamma, dhammaanudhammapa.tipatti. (A ii 245)" Scott: Your definition is clear. There is a specific definition to the paa.li term, not one that applies to the word used as the english translation. Think that this is where much confusion enters in: one uses the meanings one likes of the english word over the meanings intended in the original. Paa.li seems to be the language of the Dhamma. Its words and phrases seem made to define aspects of the Dhamma. There is a wonderful consistency and elegance to the Dhamma. Words in paa.li seem definable only in relation to Dhamma and no other way. As such, 'practise' is only the english word approximating pa.tipatti. It will not mean what pa.tipatti means because the language (English) is not the language of the Dhamma. I understand these sorts of things in terms of some quality or other of citta. The 'following a certain way' and the 'towards' mean to me that, in accordance with Dhamma, etc., citta inclines towards a particular way - and that would be in the direction of Nibbaana - from moment to moment. This is 'practise'. Naturally I don't see it as someone who does something. I think, as you note above, learning, from time to time, to be aware of the dhammas which present themselves is pa.tipatti. It happens naturally. It is developed and is strengthened and shows up at the level of each citta (in the mental factors which are conascent) one after the other. Well, enough of my thoughts. Thanks again, Nina. Sincerely, Scott #69195 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 4:50 am Subject: Re: Request for help with Pali pronunciation rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > > Some years ago > when I looked into this, I found that there are only two European > languages that contain both of these palatal sounds: Turkish and Black > British English (a derivative of Jamaican Creole). And so the Pali 'c' > should be pronounced as Bob Marley pronounces the 'c' in Caribbean when > he sings 'Buffalo Soldier'; Dear Venerable and JOn This may help to isolate the sound:) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhQf36GYd68 With respect Robert #69196 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 4:54 am Subject: Re: Antw.: [dsg] Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Robert > > > In a message dated 3/4/2007 11:58:03 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, > rjkjp1@... writes: > > Dear TG > If I read you correctly you think citta and mentality are actually > types of matter. > > TG: No Robert, I think they are types of energy. ------------ Dear TG, I'm no expert on science views but isn't energy a type of matter? __________ > > And that there is no arisng and falling of matter or > mentality. > > TG: No again. There is arising and falling of phenomena. (I do not claim > there is or is not matter however.) ______ I thought you disagreed when the texts say that phenomena arise and pass away? > > > > How does your theory explain that one mght die as a human and then be > reborn instantly - without any time interval-as a God in a distant > world. > > TG: I don't have a hard and fast theory regarding "rebirth mechanics." I > generally think kamma is accumulated and stored sort of like a charge in a > battery or a charge built up in the atmosphere. At the time of death, perhaps > that charge is released into a new life system. I don't know how it works but > I tacitly believe it does work...i.e., that there is rebirth. > > > Isn't that more than a slowly continuous change? > > TG: Hey changes can be extremely fast to. But I still see them as being > continuous analog type change; as opposed to a digital on and off change. __________ Above you said phenomena does arise and pass away? ____________ > > > And how could matter move so fast ? > > 455 Hemi engine? ;-) > ________ I drive a 4 litre V8 here in Japan- never fast enough are they. Robert #69197 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 5:42 am Subject: [dsg] Faith (Re: New Group_ buddhatrue Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: It is not only Christians, Muslims, > Jews or Hindus that are made wrong through self-righteousness. It is > Buddhists as well. > Have you forgotten that you are in a Buddhist group? I am really not much in the habit of justifying the supremacy of Buddhism in a Buddhist group. But, I think that you are almost a Buddhist now as it is, you have just a few doubts to be resolved; so I will respond. I only mention this because if you were a confirmed Christian (or some other faith follower) posting to this group, I wouldn't respond to you at all. I NEVER try to proselytize Buddhism to confirmed followers of other faiths. Herman: Case in point being a very ugly slanging match between Buddhists, including bhikkhus, about the existence or otherwise of bardo states, which I stumbled upon at another site. James: Oh gosh, I'm sure it is soooo ugly! Probably makes war, disease, and poverty look like nothing! ;-)) Herman, I think you are being a drama queen. ;-)) A disagreement over bardo states is not a big deal- it is a minor point of difference. All Buddhists agree on the Four Noble Truths, the Noble Eightfold Path, and the Triple Gem. Herman: Just now we have RobK arguing a point about impermanence, solely on the basis of his faith in the instantaneous nature of rebirth. James: Rob K. cannot be included in this discussion because he isn't a Buddhist. He denies faith in and the importance of the Sangha of the Triple Gem, so he isn't a Buddhist in my book. (I am rather dogmatic about those sorts of things). Herman, I think I might be coming across to you in the wrong way because I am missing the PC (Political Correctness) gene. ;-)). Most Buddhists don't state faith so strongly and they don't publicly state the superiority of Buddhism to other faiths. Actually, I don't either, except in a BUDDHIST GROUP! ;-)) But, since I don't seem to be getting through to you due to my blunt presentation, allow me to quote some more gentle scholars: "Buddhist or not Buddhist, I have examined every one of the great religious systems of the world, and in none of them have I found anything to surpass, in beauty and comprehensiveness, the Noble Eightfold Path and the Four Noble Truths of the Buddha. I am content to shape my life according to that path." Prof. Rhys Davids "Of Buddhism alone can it be affirmed it is free from all fanaticism. Its aim being to produce in every man a thorough internal transforming by self-conquest, how can it have recourse to might or money or even persuasion for effecting conversion? The Buddha has only shown the way to salvation, and it is left to each individual to decide for himself if he would follow it." Prof. Lakshmi Narasu, "The Essence of Buddhism" "The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description." Albert Einstein "Gautama got rid of even that shade of a shadow of permanent existence by a metaphysical tour de force of great interest to the student of philosophy, seeing that it supplies the wanting half of Bishop Berkeley's well-known idealist argument. It is a remarkable indication of the subtlety of Indian speculation that Gautama should have seen deeper than the greatest of modem idealists. The tendency of enlightened thought of all today all the world over is not towards theology, but philosophy and psychology. The bark of theological dualism is drifting into danger. The fundamental principles of evolution and monism are being accepted by the thoughtful." Prof. Huxley. "Evolution And Ethics" "A Buddhist is not a slave to a book or to any person. Nor does he sacrifice his freedom of thought by becoming a follower of the Buddha. He can exercise his own free will and develop his knowledge even to the extent of attaining Buddhahood himself, for all are potential Buddhas." Ven. Narada Maha Thera "What is Buddhism" "It was never, however, the Buddhist way to proselytise - in the sense of forcing ideas and beliefs upon an unwilling audience, much less to exert pressure of any kind, or any kind of flattery, deceit or cajolery, to win adherence to one's own point of view. Buddhist missionaries have never competed for converts in the marketplace." Dr. G.P. Malalasekara "Of the great religions of history I prefer Buddhism, especially in its earliest forms, because it has had the smallest element of persecution." Bertrand Russell "One should not honour only one's own religion and condemn the religions of others, but one should honour others' religions for this or that reason. So doing, one helps one's own religion to grow and renders service to the religions of others too. In acting otherwise one digs the grave of one's own religion and also does harm to other religions. Whosoever honours his own religion and condemns other religions, does so indeed through devotion to his own religion, thinking "I will glorify my own religion". But on the contrary, in so doing he injures his own religion more gravely. So concord is good: Let all listen, and be willing to listen to the doctrines professed by others." Emperor Asoka "There is little of what we call dogma in the Buddha's teaching. With a breadth of view rare in that age and not common in ours he refuses to stifle criticism. Intolerance seemed to him the greatest enemy of religion." Dr. S Radhakrishnan, "Gautama The Buddha" "Most neophytes of some other religions are controlled by their Guru and are forbidden to read the scriptures, doctrines, magazines, booklets and tracts of other religions. This very rarely happens within Buddhism." Phra Khantipalo, "Tolerance" Metta, James #69198 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 5:39 am Subject: Q. Visuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 137 nilovg Hi Larry, ------------ This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks very much. "By deliberate inclination" or "by one's wish" seems similar to kamma vipaka but perhaps that isn't the correct term. ------- N: At a party with a buffet dinner you see your favorite dish and take it. This is conditioned by you accumulated lobha for that specific taste. Perhaps this is an example. It is also conditioned by seeing, first there is seeing and that is the result of kamma. It is not by accident that that favorite dish was in front of you. -------- L: "By virtue of intrusion" and "by excess of (a new) object" seems undetermined as to whether they arise as objects of consciousness because of kamma. ---------- N: Why did he hurt himself on that big stone? He was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Kamma caused the pain which is vipaaka. Seeing and hearing are vipaakacittas produced by kamma. It was time for hearing. -------- L: Btw, am I correct in thinking the functional (kiriya) consciousnesses are not accounted for in the dependent arising formula because dependent arising is only concerned with kamma and its result? --------- N: The arahat who has mahaa-kiriyacittas instead of mahaa-kusala cittas is freed from the cycle. He does not commit kamma that can produce vipaaka. But he can still have vipaakacittas produced by former kamma, committed before he was an arahat. Nina. #69199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 5, 2007 5:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. Rupas, Ch 1, no 2, practice. nilovg Hi James, thank you for your good wishes. You are right, my elaboration. The Thai was difficult to translate (thung chepo). I have another go: pa.ti: against, towards. patti: attainment (in texts also referring to nibbaana). Elaboration: the going towards the attainment. Dhammanudhamma: in accordance with the dhamma, here I think the commentaries explained it as : such that one will attain nibbaana. As I understood the second word dhamma refers to nibbaana. This cannot happen without realizing the true characteristics of realities. I liked Scott's elaboration: Nina. Op 5-mrt-2007, om 2:36 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > You really should emphasize that this is YOUR ELABORATION.