#69600 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:56 pm Subject: Daana Corner (20) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “The Donee” (1 of 3 parts) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The Donee The suttas also describe the person to whom alms should be given (A.iii, 41). Guests, travelers and the sick should be treated with hospitality and due consideration. During famines the needy should be liberally entertained. The virtuous should be first entertained with the first fruits of fresh crops. There is a recurrent phrase in the suttas (D.i, 137; ii,354; iii,76) describing those who are particularly in need of public generosity. They are recluses (samana), brahmans (brahmana), destitutes (kapana), wayfarers (addhika), wanderers (vanibbaka) and beggars (yacaka). The recluses and brahmans are religious persons who do not earn wages. They give spiritual guidance to the laity and the laity is expected to support them. The poor need the help of the rich to survive and the rich become spiritually richer by helping the poor. At a time when transport facilities were meager and amenities for travelers were not adequately organized, the public had to step in to help the wayfarer. Buddhism considers it a person's moral obligation to give assistance to all these types of people. In the Anguttara Nikaya the Buddha describes, with sacrificial terminology, three types of fires that should be tended with care and honor (A.iv,44). They are ahuneyyaggi, gahapataggi and dakkhineyyaggi. The Buddha explained that ahuneyyaggi means one's parents, and they should be honored and cared for. Gahapataggi means one's wife and children, employees and dependents. Dakkineyyaggi represents religious persons who have either attained the goal of arahantship or have embarked on a course of training for the elimination of negative mental traits. All these should be cared for and looked after as one would tend a sacrificial fire. According to the Maha-mangala Sutta, offering hospitality to one's relatives is one of the great auspicious deeds a layperson can perform (Sn. 262-63). “The Donee” to be continued. Han #69601 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 3, no 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/16/07 2:36:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Eyesense is a rúpa in the eye, > capable of receiving visible object, so that citta can experience it. > > As regards the eye, the “AtthasÃ¥linÀ? (II, Book II, Ch III, 306) > distinguishes between the eye as “compound organâ€? and as “sentient > organâ€?, namely the rúpa which is eyesense, situated in the eye. > The eye as “compound organâ€? is described as follows: > > ... a lump of flesh is situated in the cavity of the eye, bound by > the bone of the cavity of the eye below, by the bone of the brow > above, by the eye-peaks on both sides, by the brain inside, by the > eyelashes outside.... Although the world perceives the eye as white, > as (of a certain) bigness, extension, width, they do not know the > real sentient eye, but only the physical basis thereof. That lump of > flesh situated in the cavity of the eye is bound to the brain by > sinewy threads. Therein are white, black, red, extension, cohesion, > heat and mobility. The eye is white from the abundance of phlegm, > black from that of bile, red from that of blood, rigid from the > element of extension, fluid from that of cohesion, hot from that of > heat, and oscillating from that of mobility. Such is the compound > organ of the eye.... > > ======================= This latter description is ancient biology. By today's standards it is primitive and flawed - it is quite primitive especially as regards such things as the phlegm & bile. But in any case, the eye organ is mere concept. Now, what does it mean for eye sense, a rupa, to be part of the eye organ, mere concept? This description makes it sound like the eye sense is a tiny little piece of matter within a larger clump of matter called the eye organ. To me, this is an attempt at an odd mix of paramatthic description and pa~n~nattic description. Forgetting about the concept of eye organ, what exactly is the rupa of eye sense, the reality and not the concept? How is it known? How is it experienced? If it is "matter", why cannot scientists with electron microscopes and other technology detect it? For me, it is a mistake to think of eye sense as a bit of matter. I think that matter is imagined substance, and I believe that rupas are not little bits of matter at all, but are physical elements of experience. Warmth, hardness, pressure, movement, sights, sounds, tastes, etc are rupas. The seeming location at which sights occur is the eye-sense rupa. When we see visible object, "where" it seems to be, "towards the front, fanning outwards", is eye sense. Eye sense is a locational rupa. It arises anew with each new sight. It is an experiential reality. When there is no seeing (i.e., no eye consciousness), there is also no eye sense and no visible object. When any are missing, so are the others. The same is the case for ear sense and so on, IMO. With metta, Howard #69602 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:25 am Subject: Inevitable Transience! bhikkhu5 Friends: INEVITABLE IMPERMANENT: So have I heard: When the Blessed One considered that his mother only lived 7 days after his birth & then re-appeared among the Tusita-devas, he exclaimed: All whoever have been, are now & ever will become, all these beings will have to leave this body again… Fully realizing this inevitable loss, any clever one eagerly pursue this Noble life… Udana – Inspiration: V - 2 VANISHING Impermanent, Momentary; Are all phenomena existing. Whoever fully perceives that with insight straightaway develops immunity to suffering. This is a way to purification, & to freedom! Dhammapada 277 SURE LOSS Yet see this ignorant world multiply & diversify, delighting in development, rejoicing in becoming, even though all that become, all that arise, absolutely everywhere whatsoever, without any even single exception, is of nature to change, to decay, to vanish, is transient, impermanent & thereby inherently painful, disappointing & frustrating as it is doomed always to be lost… In the One who sees this as it really is, craving for both becoming & for non-becoming is consequently quenched. By so uprooting all craving completely, there is instantly the Bliss of Nibbana. Thus cooled, calmed & all stilled, such Bhikkhu do not return to any form of being … Udana – Inspiration: III - 10 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * #69603 From: "shennieca" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:06 am Subject: Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello all, In Abhidhamma, there is no "person" that "controls" or could can make good/bad "intentions" (cetanaa), all phenomena arise depending on conditions. So, in this world of so many people, "you" and "I" are subjected to conditions too and in this long, long unfathomable beginning-less universe, when we started as a life until we are here today, why is it that the conditions which arise in "you" become different from the ones in "me"? Both "you" and "I" are conditioned beings, so how does the "good" or "bad" conditioning come to "you" or to "me". Both of us didn't choose this or that conditions right? So, what are the "conditions" that makes "your" conditions different from "mine"? If I say the reason is kamma condition, then it is quite unfair. Because "I" cannot control my kamma, if "I" was a good person, it was because of my good conditioning and "I" was not responsibility for being "good". The goodness that came to me, came without my free- will. Same for the bad kamma. So, in this case, how is Nibbana possible? In this life alone, I can observe good intentions and bad intentions come and go. So, with a mixture of "good" and "bad" cetanaa and other things, how can "the nama-rupa" that is inside this body achieve Nibbana? Does Nibbana come randomly based on conditions? Or do we need to suffer an X amount of time in samsara, before all of us will be conditioned to attain Nibbana anyway? Because "we" cannot force and control Nibbana to come at will. I believe in anatta, no control. But I just want to know, if "I" cannot decide or "you" cannot decide, aren't we all just "slaves" who are subjected to conditioning? You are a slave to your conditioning and I am a slave to mine.. So "what is it" that decides these different conditionings for you and me? So, in the case of random conditioning for "you" and "I", what is the main factor of conditioning that makes "you" or "me" realize Nibbana? This post may sound abit confusing, but I just want to know, if "we" are all a puppet of our "conditions", what makes "you" understand the dhamma faster then "me". I know no-one understand, only pu~n~n~a understand. It means your pu~n~n~a and mine are different, why??? Why is it, with the conditions which you and I cannot choose, make this difference in you or me? In Christianity, it is easy, it is God. But in Buddhism? Who and what chooses the conditions that befall on you or me? Looking for help with the Abhidhamma, Sobhana #69604 From: "colette" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) ksheri3 Good Day sarah, connie, Phil, and James, I didn't respond to the post directed at me from James (I believe) since I am busy "connecting", putting this all together. I do not have the ability to take myself out of the MAGICAL EXPERIENCE since it's always been with me since my automobile accident in 1978. I do know that when I start concentrating on different things I really mess with it. Putting it in as few words as possible, it screws up my operations. I spoke of the practices used and abused by society concerning "SLAVERY" in it's many forms. Sex-for-sale happens to be an unfortunate reality that exists and I don't think this is much of an actual chance for it to be "Taken Out of Society". So, WE ARE ALL STUCK WITH IT. Now you can drive yourself nuts by thinking you can actually contend with it or change it but there is so much "magical power" to it that I've just come to the conclusion that "Why Bother", lets go find different ways of performing magik and widen my horizons, widen my vistas, etc. Lets look at James' reply to me: "We are in this group because we want to purify our minds." colette: that statement is TOTALLY OUT THERE. I never had any intentions of purifying my mind by joining this group. So he has started his cricism-defense by creating a false assumption. I certainly question any and all fellow members of this group to actually come to the conclusion that their intent was to purify their minds. Ah, Sunyata hard at work since this hallucination, false assumption, happens to be EMPTY of reality. We > > want to experience a happiness that is not dependent on the six > > senses and their objects. colette: AGAIN, jeeze that ball is hit soooooo foul that there is not any way possible that any statistician could rationally say that the ball is in play. Does he DEFINE THE MEANING OF "Happiness"? I have no idea how you or any person can just say that their happiness is the exact same happiness that EVERY OTHER SENTIENT BEING HAS, and if they do not have that same "happiness" THEN, the resultant condition, the person that does not agree with James is somehow defitient and or defective as a human being. He is also telling every person what it is that I want, he's even telling me what it is that I want! Let me have some Jehovah's Witnesses or Al Quida members come over to to maybe sell him some producct that I'm sure he'll find a necessity. But I am going to allow "anger", "hate", our good Abhidharma friends: "Lobha, Mosa, and Dosa", to all go to him since he obviously has no intentions of finding actual peace, samadhi, it appears that he possesses an excessive inventory of negative emotions that he wishes to export, distribute, to another person, country, city, state, etc. As I've said: "Misery Loves Company" and I have no time for wallowing in misery. Thus I leave it be. With that said, moving on. "Righteous > > Anger" is just anger and is never benefical to anyone colette: AGAIN, only this time I'll use a different metaphor, analogy, this type of statement seriously makes me wonder what universe he's in, at best he is in the range of Pluto or Neptune by being non-judgemental and giving him the chance to be human, a sentient being. IN NO WAY WAS OR IS MY ANGER APPLIED as this organized religous schtick that gives rise to the phrase "righteous anger". My anger is taken from a buddhist standpoint, Point Of View, POV, by applying the resultant methodology that slave masters/owners have always used and will always use in their operations of slaves. This is not a normal human behavior but is a developed, a grown, a learned, behavior, much like a farmer plants a seed (bija) in a field (reminiscent of the Alaya-Vijnana) and this seed is feed, nurishment, and taken care of in the mind which is conscious of it's surroundings. As I've stated, this is normal, learned behavior that the status quo, in their value structure, honors, worships, and DESIRES to grow more powerful. You may see a wild animal that has not tasted FRESH BLOOD from a kill, but once that robot, that empty hard drive, that young animal that is growing, tastes, smells, lusts for, then that taste is imbedded in the memory, the seed of the taste of warm blood taken, stolen, from another sentient being, is planted and growing: another dose of the drug, BLOOD, is required. See Addictions. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James,(*Phil, skip to p.s again) ... > *p.s flowers for Phil- did you ever read this post James wrote? I thought > of it when I read a comment you made about being unclean. colette: Sarah, I'll jump in since I know it'll work well with the meditations I'm working on: The Unclean? Isn't Paranoia a mental disease that is to be avoided. what is dirty and what is clean? toodles, colette #69605 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (19) buddhatrue Hi Howard, Thanks for your input. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and Sarah, Rob, and Han) - > > In a message dated 3/16/07 5:45:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > > Rob M: Sometimes a person who is stingy when it comes to money is > > much less stingy when it comes to their time. Could you get them to > > start being generous with their time such as spending time tutoring > > orphans or other type of volunteer work. > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > Sometimes that is so, though I have found that more often one who is > stingy in one way tends to be generally stingy of spirit. James: Well, that could be. As we know, lack of generosity comes from the evil root of greed. If greed is strong in a person, that would generally affect many areas of life. Just what it would affect is hard to say. (The thinking on the > part of Sebastian that you shouldn't post much to DSG, James, without > "compensation" seems to suggest an inclination to stinginess in the area of voluntary > service as well.) James: Could be, but I hope not. Anyway, he does have a point. Considering the amount of time I spend and the aggravation I have to go through, maybe I should be compensated! I will send Jon and Sarah a bill and see if they pay it! LOL! (just kidding). > ------------------------------------ > > > > > James: Thanks for the practical suggestion. I don't really know if > > this is possible but I will give it some thought. Maybe as I learn > > Chinese, I can get my bf involved in some volunteer work for the > > temple. > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > Worth the trying. Should joy arise out of it, it could turn things > around. James: I hope so. I don't want to give up hope. > ------------------------------------ > > > > > Sarah: Isn't it best to just set a good example and take care of our > > own cittas rather than having expectations of others/trying to change > > others and so on? > > > > James: Maybe, but this approach seems to lack compassion for others. > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not so, IMO. Seeing another being generous and happy as a result could > serve to change a stingy attitude. People can start with false preconceptions > that can subsequently be corrected by observation. James: Well, I took that statement by Sarah in a different way than you have. First she wrote that we can set a good example, but then she wrote that we shold concern ourselves with our own cittas rather than the cittas of others. Well, that is contradictory and confusing. If you are attempting to 'set a good example', you are not concerned with only your own cittas. For example, I am reminded of a sutta in the Pali Canon of an old arahant who wore only rags and lived in the forest. The Buddha asked him why he did such a thing, since it was physically very challenging for him (being old), when he has already accomplished the goal. The old arahant said that he did it to set an example for future generations to practice in the forest, etc. Now, that is setting a good example for others! If you are concerned with only your cittas and not those of others, you are not setting a good example- you are being selfish. > ------------------------------------ > > > > > Sarah: Being forgiving or patient with others is a kind of generosity > > for example. > > > > James: I don't think forgiveness and patience fall under the category > > of dana- at least as the Buddha taught it. One could be forgiving > > and patient, but if he/she is stingy, he/she is going to be reborn in > > hell or as a hungry ghost. > > > > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > Givingness of one sort or in one area of human activity can foster it > in others. If it is present at all, it can be cultivated more generally it > seems to me. James: Could be, but not always. Both of my friends I am concerned about are generally forgiving, patient, and very nice guys-- they are just very stingy with material possessions. Isn't it funny how complicated the mind is? ;-)) > ================== > With metta, > Howard Metta, James #69606 From: "robmoult" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:57 pm Subject: Re: Conditions and Nibbana robmoult Hi Sobhana, These are some of the best questions that I have read in a long time. I really wish that I had the time right now to craft answers. I am behind on a couple of threads already. I hope that I will be able to chip in after the weekend as this discussion develops. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: You have a "beautiful" name #69607 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:56 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (45) nichiconn Hi, Howard, ----------------------------------- ... > I cultivate the Signless, and my mind > In uttermost composure concentrate. > Mine is the ecstasy of freedom won > As Path merges in Fruit, and Fruit in Path. --------------------------------------- Howard: That last phrase is odd. I wonder what it means. (Fruit merging in path?) Perhaps this represents passing through a sequence of stages. -------------------------------------- c: Wish I could say. It sure is different from Pruitt's translation of the same verse: 105. And intent and well concentrated, I develop the signless. I have had immediate liberation. I have become quenched without clinging. Maybe just another example of Mrs. RD's unique way of thinking? peace, connie #69608 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:04 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha buddhatrue Hi Connie and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > 'But then, O king, if some give away even their own lives, why do you so > violently attack Vessantara, that king of givers, for the virtuous > bestowal of his child and wife? Is there not a general practice in the > world, an acknowledged custom, according to which it is allowable for a > father who has fallen into debt, or lost his livelihood, to deposit his > son in pledge, or sell him?' > > 'Yes, that is so.' > > 'Well, in accordance therewith was it that Vessantara, O king, in > suffering and distress at not having obtained the insight of the > Omniscient Ones, pledged and sold his wife and children for that spiritual > treasure. So that he gave away what other people had given away, he did > what other people had done. Why then do you, O king, so violently attack > him, the king of givers?' This is a very faulty argument in favor of giving away your wife and children as an act of dana. I could go on and on explaining why this argument doesn't work, but I don't really have the time right now. I just wanted to focus attention on it. > > === > to be continued, > connie > Metta, James #69609 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (19) hantun1 Dear James and others, I thank James very much for the sutta quotes. ["Monks, there is the person who is engaged in promoting the good of another but not in promoting his own good. Of these two individuals the latter is superior. Monks, there is the person who is engaged in promoting his own good but not in promoting the good of another. Of these three individuals he is superior.”] This excerpt was taken from AN 4.95 Chavaalaata sutta. When I first looked at the above passage it was a bit difficult for me to appreciate how “the person who is engaged in promoting his own good but not in promoting the good of another” is superior to “the person who is engaged in promoting the good of another but not in promoting his own good.” Isn’t it contradictory to the principle of the Perfections (Paramis)? Only when I looked at AN 4.99 Sikkhaa-pada sutta, it became clear. ["And how is one an individual who practices for his own benefit and for that of others? There is the case where a certain individual himself abstains from the taking of life and encourages others in undertaking abstinence from the taking of life. He himself abstains from stealing and encourages others in undertaking abstinence from stealing. He himself abstains from sexual misconduct and encourages others in undertaking abstinence from sexual misconduct. He himself abstains from lying and encourages others in undertaking abstinence from lying. He himself abstains from intoxicants that cause heedlessness and encourages others in undertaking abstinence from intoxicants that cause heedlessness. Such is the individual who practices for his own benefit and for that of others.”] Then only, I understand what it is meant by “promoting one’s own good” and “promoting the good of another.” Thank you very much, James. Respectfully, Han --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Han, Rob M, and Sarah, > > Thank you all for your responses to my question. I will write one > post to all of you. #69610 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for clarifying prompted and unprompted consciousness. I still don't quite understand but maybe I'll look at it again later. Larry #69611 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) buddhatrue Hi Colette, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Day sarah, connie, Phil, and James, > > I didn't respond to the post directed at me from James (I believe) > since I am busy "connecting", putting this all together. I do not > have the ability to take myself out of the MAGICAL EXPERIENCE since > it's always been with me since my automobile accident in 1978. I do > know that when I start concentrating on different things I really > mess with it. Putting it in as few words as possible, it screws up my > operations. Thank you for your reply. Actually, I was hesitant to reply to your original post, but since you had written to me directly I felt obligated. I just gave you standard, Buddhist advice—nothing shocking or controversial. I could go through this post and respond to everything you have written, but I don't have the time and I don't really see that it would be effective. I think it is obvious that you have some serious mental disorders which should be treated with counseling or medications, or both. Until you get these gross delusions under control, you won't be able to understand the Buddha's teaching. Metta, James #69612 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana TGrand458@... Hi Sobhana In a message dated 3/16/2007 4:42:45 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, shennieca@... writes: Hello all, In Abhidhamma, there is no "person" that "controls" or could can make good/bad "intentions" (cetanaa), all phenomena arise depending on conditions. TG: Not just abhidhamma, this is the Buddha's teaching in the Suttas as well. So, in this world of so many people, "you" and "I" are subjected to conditions too and in this long, long unfathomable beginning-less universe, when we started as a life until we are here today, why is it that the conditions which arise in "you" become different from the ones in "me"? TG: The reason we are all different is due to "diversity of contact." I.E., because we are all subject to different contacts, the results are also different. Those who have been subject to ignorant ideas are more likely to lean towards ignorance and generate actions (kamma) that are harmful. Those who have been in proximity to wise ideas are more likely to be wise and generate actions (kamma) that are beneficial. Both "you" and "I" are conditioned beings, so how does the "good" or "bad" conditioning come to "you" or to "me". Both of us didn't choose this or that conditions right? So, what are the "conditions" that makes "your" conditions different from "mine"? TG: Same answer as above. If I say the reason is kamma condition, then it is quite unfair. Because "I" cannot control my kamma, if "I" was a good person, it was because of my good conditioning and "I" was not responsibility for being "good". The goodness that came to me, came without my free- will. Same for the bad kamma. TG: Kamma has nothing to due with fair or unfair. Its a matter of conditions. I think your analysis is quite good. Due to this "conditional nature" of events, it is ever important to immerse "yourself" in environments, books, influences, that are wholesome so that the outcomes are leading toward wholesomeness/wisdom. So, in this case, how is Nibbana possible? In this life alone, I can observe good intentions and bad intentions come and go. So, with a mixture of "good" and "bad" cetanaa and other things, how can "the nama-rupa" that is inside this body achieve Nibbana? Does Nibbana come randomly based on conditions? Or do we need to suffer an X amount of time in samsara, before all of us will be conditioned to attain Nibbana anyway? Because "we" cannot force and control Nibbana to come at will. TG: Nibbana comes when the wholesome/skilful states taught by the Buddha are implemented to the extent necessary to end attachment/ignorance. It is the influence of the Buddha and the efforts of the "preservers of the tipitaka" that are the conditions that make this possible. These conditions can allow "you" (i.e., other conditions) to choose wisely. I believe in anatta, no control. But I just want to know, if "I" cannot decide or "you" cannot decide, aren't we all just "slaves" who are subjected to conditioning? You are a slave to your conditioning and I am a slave to mine.. So "what is it" that decides these different conditionings for you and me? TG: Making a wise effort by closely paying attention to conditions is a condition and a possibility. Because "you" have pursued a path looking for truth or relief from suffering, the conditions have become available to search and make efforts in this direction. There may be 100 people who have the same "potential kamma" for seeking the Buddha's teaching that you and I have. But maybe only 5 out of 100 ever come across the teaching due to conditions. But sooner or later, suffering is the common denominator that will drive a quest for relief from that suffering and will drive folks in this direction. So, in the case of random conditioning for "you" and "I", what is the main factor of conditioning that makes "you" or "me" realize Nibbana? TG: Once you have found the Buddha's teaching, there is a guide, a motivator, a plan to follow and implement. The level of effort will depend on past kamma and the influences you find in this life. Keeping in touch with a group like this may not be the panacea, but its a better influence than watching a trashy movie. (I should know ... due to my research.) ;-) Therefore, keep the good influences coming. This post may sound abit confusing, but I just want to know, if "we" are all a puppet of our "conditions"are all a puppet of our "conditions" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) philofillet HI Sarah I?@might read it but probably not because I am three posts (one to Jon, one to Nina and one to Nitesh) away from starting my baseball season break, and I don't want to get caught in any more discussions. But just to say I doubt I used the term "unclean." Certainly burning with greed, hatred and delusion, as we all are, and certainly I referrred to the sutta in which the Buddha said that all who are not ariyans should *constantly* protect the mind, which is prone to fester, as one would protect an open sore. Maybe that's what you mean. But "unclean" sounds very Christian! But maybe I said it. If I did, I take it back. Wrong word to use. Metta, Phil > *p.s flowers for Phil- did you ever read this post James wrote? I thought > of it when I read a comment you made about being unclean. Worth the > trouble to click on the link, I assure you!!: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19633 > ============== > #69614 From: "kanchaa" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Where does Anger start from? kanchuu2003 Dear Sarah and James, Thanks for your seggestion on Metta Radiation. I is just a representation of human being, or oneself... Can you donate me some money if you dont have any? When a doctor is sick, cant he start to cure himself? Sincerely, Nitesh #69615 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:55 pm Subject: Re: All about formless planes kelvin_lwin Hi Sarah and Jon, The key is already in what you wrote. > S: sotapatti magga citta cannot arise in > arupa brahma realms, but other lokuttara cittas can) ... > cuti citta to arise. It had me stumped, but I think it must mean that any > such sotapatti phala cittas must refer to sotapatti samaapatti phala > cittas (experienced only by sotapannas who have developed all jhanas). It can arise which doesn't mean it will. It was only confusing because we're using cittas in the discussion. It's clear that the whole sotapatti magga-appana vithi cannot occur in arupa realms. Sotapatti phala-samapatti vithi can occur and phala-cittas we were talking about would be the ones from this vithi only. We can quibble about the requirements to be able to obtain this fruition but we're only talking about the potential for arising anyway. So it's clear what can and cannot arise in arupa realms. - Kel ps. I'm busy with retreats and will go again on 21st before heading to asia for all of april. Don't mind my hit and run posting which I'm sure you dont :) #69616 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:01 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (45) scottduncan2 Dear connie and Howard, Mrs. RD: I cultivate the Signless, and my mind In uttermost composure concentrate. Mine is the ecstasy of freedom won As Path merges in Fruit, and Fruit in Path. Pruitt: 105. And intent and well concentrated, I develop the signless. I have had immediate liberation. I have become quenched without clinging. The Paali: 105. "Animitta~nca bhaavemi, ekaggaa susamaahitaa; anantaraavimokkhaasi.m, anupaadaaya nibbutaa. Scott: I think this refers to how release occurs as the magga citta is followed by the phala citta immediately, without a gap (anantaraavimokkhaasi.m). Sincerely, Scott. #69617 From: E C Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello TG, all, Thanks for your reply. I'd like to make a comparison: "Some lotuses might be born in the water and grow in the water, but would rise up from the water and stand without being soiled by the water" (SN 6:560) Some flowers rise above the water and some flowers don't. Even flowers are born with different conditions and they are also subjected to conditioning. We see differences in people all over the world because there are different types of conditions for each of them. 'You' and 'I' are both subjected to conditions and conditioning. I don't understand "who" or "what" or "how" makes 'your' conditions different from 'mine'? In christianity, it is easy, because God did it. But how does Buddhism explain this? What happened to the suffering people in Rwanda? We can say that because of their bad kamma, they are born poor and have to suffer. But kamma is intention which they have NO control over. So, these poor people in Africa just stumbled upon bad conditioning? And Bill Gates just stumbled upon good kamma that made him a billionaire? So, "what-is-it" that makes the conditioning for Bill Gates different from the people in Rwanda? Does the abhidhamma provide answers like this? Sutta wise, it is easy to explain, because people made good choices or bad choices therefore they get good or bad results. But in the abhidhamma, it is explained by kusala citta and akusala citta. So, for Bill Gates, most of his past lives, his kusala citta appears more often than the poor Rwandans? Why?? How?? For people who attained Nibbana, is it because they have been in Samsara longer than those who have not achieved Nibbana yet? Is it like "first come, first serve" basis? I totally agree that we cannot control dhamma, I just want to understand the workings/mechanics of these uncontrollable conditions. TG: The reason we are all different is due to "diversity of contact." I.E., because we are all subject to different contacts, the results are also different. Those who have been subject to ignorant ideas are more likely to lean towards ignorance and generate actions (kamma) that are harmful. Those who have been in proximity to wise ideas are more likely to be wise and generate actions (kamma) that are beneficial. Sobhana: This diversity of contact is also beyond our control, therefore, I don't understand why some people are born near contacts with wise people and some people aren't. Why?? #69618 From: "colette" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:08 pm Subject: Re: ..."scrambled brains" ksheri3 Good Evening connie, I was answering this hallucination called "buddhanature" with all of his anger and hate directed towards me, about me, and the condition he and his kind manifested while I simply am looking at it and "callin' 'em like I see 'em". <....> My roommates just got this computer and the kids shut it down while I was writitng to him.. As for your statements: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > :) Colette, > > Nope, never heard of Dzyan at all... my turn to think my lack might bother > you? LOL... oops! smile across the table. Yep, I limit my reading to > Theravadan texts these days... more than enough there to scramble my > brains! colette: if you read that post/reply Buddhanature gave me then I bet you'd be saying: "This is your brain on drugs" ;-) Your below post resembles the mode of transmission from the Abhidharma. Could you give me the name of the entire suttra or sutta this comes from since I cannot get a reference on it's position. toodles, colette For instance, on the question you were considering the other > night about "name and form" (like the chicken and egg), here's an answer > from the Path of Purity translation of the Visuddhimagga: > > << Again it {c: rupa} is of five kinds as born of from one, two, three, > four, or from nothing whatever. Of these, that which is produced by action > and by consciousness is produced from one [cause]. Of these, matter as > controlling faculty together with the heart-basis, is produced by action. > The two intimations are produced by consciousness. That which is produced > by consciousness and caloric order is produced by two [causes], that is > sound as sense-object. <....> #69619 From: "matheesha" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:16 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. matheesha333 Hi Howard, Nina, Sarah, others, > When we see, there IS visual content. When we hear, there IS sound. In the cases > of thinking and recalling, though, the object is a mind-projected, shadow > object that is part and parcel of the mental process and not a reality, despite > how good of a replica it might be. I have a related question which has been on my mind the past few days: Rupa can only be detected if it comes into contact with the sense base and after the particular sensebase consciousness arises. This is called phassa (or the coming together of the 3 is phassa/contact). Now phassa is a mental/nama dhamma. This is the first instance that we actually start to experience something. Which suggests that whatever we experience we do so through a mental/nama dhamma. What we see as rupa is a representation of 'rupic' information and not a rupa dhamma in itself. So when it comes to nama-rupa paricceda nana (the insight of differentiating nama and rupa) we don't have the ability to actually sense rupa, but we differentiate indirect information of rupa in nama form, against nama itself. I would welcome any comments, clarifications or corrections! with metta Matheesha #69620 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. sarahprocter... Hi Nina, (Scott & RobM), This is a follow-up on my note to you yesterday. Thank you for helping me to reflect further as well. Looking at my post to Scott again on na-vattabba (including the reference to bhavangas and cuti taking a na-vattabba object), I still think what I wrote is correct and believe it conforms with the details given in T.A. (comy to the Ab.Sangaha) you mentioned below. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > We are in difficult area and I do not understand everything here. The > Visuddhimagga states that the dying-consciousbness always has a past > object. As to the patisandhicitta having a present object, this is > only said because the object of the last javanacittas still lasts for > a moment, or even a little longer. I read (T.A. p. 208) that in that > case even four more moments of bhavangacittas have a present object. > This is in the case of the last javanacittas accorring in a mind-door > process. But the rebirth-consciousness and bhavangacittas that have a > present object are doorfreed. ..... S: I'd like to suggest a few further points here: 1) As we know, the patisandhi, bhavangas and cuti always experience the same object. So, it doesn't make any sense to me that a *present* object of the first few bhavangas can become a *past* object of later bhavangas and the cuti citta. 2) However, as in the case of the paccavekkanas discussed or the sense-door object being experienced by the immediately following mind-door process, the *present* object is a 'na-vattabba (present)* object for the later cittas. 3) A *past* object remains a past object, i.e a concept, such as past kamma. 4) You mentioned that the "dying-consciousness always has a past object". There is a lot more detail in "The Dispeller' (Sammohavinodani), 711ff. Here it indicates that: "...rebirth-linking has three kinds of objects, namely, past, present and not so classifiable (S: Na vattabba). Non-eperceptive rebirth-linking has no object. Herein, in the sphere of boundless consciousness and the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, the object of rebirth-linking is past (S: i.e concept only) that of the ten kinds of sense-sphere rebirth-linking is past or present (S: as detailed in the T.A. quote discussed); that of the rest is not so classifiable. But when rebirth-linking occurs thus with three kinds of objects, ***the death consciousness next to which it appears has only a past or a not so classifiable object, there being no death consciousness with a present object.*** Therefore the manner of its occurrence in the happy destinies and the unhappy destinies should be understood thus, namely, that rebirth-linking [consciousness] occurs with one of three kinds of objects next to death [consciousness] with one of two kinds of objects." S: So here it indicates that death consciousness doesn't always have a past object. In other words, if the patisandhi and first few bhavanga cittas experience a *present* object, a reality, e.g a sign of kamma such as visible object or sound, then I understand the subsequent bhavanga cittas and cuti citta will experience the same object, but it will be a na-vattabba (not so classifiable) object. However, I'd like to stress that as the object of the bhavanga cittas can never appear or be known (because it's never an object through the 6 doorways), it really doesn't matter what the object is! When we are in a deep sleep (without dreams), the cittas experience this object over and over again, but it'll never be known! It's way, way beyond our limit to ever know. I was merely using this as another example of 'na vattabba' and to indicate that I don't believe the 'present' object of bhavanga cittas becomes a 'past' object in the same lifetime. I hope this helps and makes some sense! Metta, Sarah ======== #69621 From: "dsgmods" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re Abh. Ch 24, death of arahat dsgmods Hi Ramesh, I appreciated the detail you added here: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ramesh Patil" wrote: > When liberation of mind and liberation by wisdom are joined together and > described as "canker-less" *(anasava),* they can be taken to indicate two > aspects of the arahat's deliverance. Liberation of mind signifies the > release of his mind from craving and its associated defilements, liberation > by wisdom the release from ignorance: "With the fading away of lust there is > liberation of mind, with the fading away of ignorance there is liberation by > wisdom" "As he sees and understands thus his mind is liberated from the > canker of sensual desire, from the canker of existence, from the canker of > ignorance" -- here release from the first two cankers can be understood as > liberation of mind, release from the canker of ignorance as liberation by > wisdom. In the commentaries "liberation of mind" is identified with the > concentration factor in the fruition attainment of Arahatship, "liberation > by wisdom" with the wisdom factor. .... S: Thank you belatedly for this post and for the good detail you included. I particularly like the emphasis on the lokuttara jhana not being the same as the mundane jhana. Ramesh (and all), my only problem with what you posted (above and below, slightly trimmed at the end), is that nowhere did you indicate that it was taken from B.Bodhi's artice "Jhana and the Lay Disciple". I took it to be your writing at first and was very impressed, until it starting sounding very familiar!! [I'd like to urge everyone to take care when posting from articles or letters on the web (or books for that matter)or from other sites/lists, to clearly indicate the author and source whenever possible out of courtesy (as well as for copyright reasons). Likewise when quoting from or posting messages from DSG elsewhere, pls do the same, [asking permission of the author/poster if in any doubt!] Any comments on this, off-list, thx!) Metta, Sarah ========= > #69622 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re Abh. Ch 24, death of arahat sarahprocter... Hi Ramesh & all, OOOps - that was meant to have been sent from this (personal) account! Metta, Sarah ======= #69623 From: "shennieca" Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello TG, all, > TG: Nibbana comes when the wholesome/skilful states taught by the Buddha are implemented to the extent necessary to end attachment/ignorance. It is the influence of the Buddha and the efforts of the "preservers of the tipitaka" that are the conditions that make this possible. These conditions can allow "you" (i.e., other conditions) to choose wisely. Sobhana: Can we also say Nibbana comes to us randomly on its own accord. For example, say the simile of the sutta/tipitaka is like the sunlight and we are the plants, if we get fertilized well, watered well, have good seeds from past lives, we would grow well and sprout flowers (e.g. reach Nibbana)? And how much water, sunlight, fertilizer we get are also conditioned factors and not-decided by us. Nibbana becomes a waiting game, doesn't it? > TG: Making a wise effort by closely paying attention to conditions is a condition and a possibility. Because "you" have pursued a path looking for truth or relief from suffering, the conditions have become available to search and make efforts in this direction. There may be 100 people who have the same "potential kamma" for seeking the Buddha's teaching that you and I have. But maybe only 5 out of 100 ever come across the teaching due to conditions. But sooner or later, suffering is the common denominator that will drive a quest for relief from that suffering and will drive folks in this direction. Sobhana: I also believe that everyone will walk the Buddhist path one day too. Maybe in the end, we will all be conditioned to be a Buddhist and attain Nibbana too? These questions, are they skillful? Hoping to learn the dhamma, Sobhana #69624 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (14) sarahprocter... Hi Scott, You wrote a very moving post... --- Scott Duncan wrote: > The 'damage' was all about being lost in samsaara. .... S: yes....and will continue to be so, over and over again..... > > Now for me though, for certain, calm follows upon knowing that this > 'bad dream' in which a boy met with a particularily perverse yakkha - > and all the terror and pain of the moment - was merely the fruition of > past kamma. I guess this is due to conditions as well. .... S: It is due to conditions. I also find that reflecting on the fruition of past kamma is calming. Also, that the 'bad dream' is gone. Only 'now' and the present thinking that's the problem.... May such 'bad dreams' be a condition for compassion for all the other damaged 'streams'. Metta, Sarah ====== #69625 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: PoP quiz - next question. sarahprocter... Dear Connie, --- connie wrote: > The answer from PTS... actually from our Mr. Pruitt: 594 is the page > number of the untranslated text & in the translation, the new footnote > (Iti. p.43) replaces a 'not traced' note on p.718. > :) > > The quote begins on 718: << Being obsessed, monks, by two views, some > devas and men sink in the pleasures of becoming, some are carried away > by > extremism: .... S: ;-/ Whatever you say.....(I've no idea what this has to do with all the babies in the Vism ref, but will happily leave it there....) ... ... > It's right before the oft-quoted simile of the wooden doll/puppet & the > two sheaves of reeds in ch. xviii. > > > Oh, on second thought... which sutta is that quote from? .... S: Perhaps you can tell me! So many puppets beginning with the recent Sela Sutta in SN 5s. As for Howard's oft-quoted reeds, not the Nalakalapiyo (sp?) sutta in SN 12s? Metta, Sarah, PoP drop out =================== #69626 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Hi Howard, when I read this to Lodewijk I expected an answer like this. But wait, until you see the next issue. Further on the rupa eyesense is described. What you write about this, I agree with. No problem. The Commentator first describes the conventional eye to show the difference with eyesense in the ultimate sense. It does not matter whether it is primitive for our time, it is only what people in general mean by the eye. Nina. Op 16-mrt-2007, om 22:40 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > This latter description is ancient biology. #69627 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (35) sarahprocter... Dear Connie, Nina, Ven Dhammanando & Pali experts, --- connie wrote: > S: 'fulfilled the preliminary duties, established insight' (pabbajitvaa katapubbakiccaa vipassana.m) - Qu: does the fulfilling of the > preliminary > duties refer to developing vipassana or to satipatthana prior to > vipassana > or something else, I wonder? I assume it's different from pubbayoga > (prior > effort) and pubbacariyaa (prior conduct)..... > ---- > C: I wonder if the preliminary duties might be something as mundane as > > putting away the bowl, sweeping up, etc...?? .... S: I don't know. it does sound a bit mundane compared to pubbayoga, pubbacariyaa etc, but you could be right. Maybe Nina or Ven D. might know. .... <...> > S: Her verses addressed to Mara are always impressive: > > > C: 58. Sensual pleasures are like swords and stakes. The aggregates > > are a chopping block for them. What you call "delight in sensual > > pleasures" is now "non-delight" for me. > > C: Nothing about fighting or repressing desires... just a natural > outcome > of understanding by then. ... S: Yes - understanding those sensual pleasures that never stay in their scabbards and can't be made to at will:). Metta, Sarah ======= #69628 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:53 am Subject: The Fifth Joy! bhikkhu5 Friends: The 5-fold Joy (Piti): 1: Moderate Joy thrills with Rapture until the hairs raise! 2: Flashing Joy strikes like a Lightening now, here & then! 3: Showering Joy is like recurring Waves flooding a beach! 4: Elevating Joy can Levitate the body up into the free space! 5: Pervading Joy perfuses & saturates mind with Radiant Bliss! Source: The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. By the great explainer Buddhaghosa. 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <.....> #69629 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:05 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner (19) philofillet Hello Han and all >These > great givings comprise the meticulous observance of > the Five Precepts. By doing so one gives fearlessness, > love and benevolence to all beings. If one human being > can give security and freedom from fear to others by > his behavior, that is the highest form of dana one can > give, not only to mankind, but to all living beings. I find that it wasn't until I reflected more deeply that drinking alcohol was connected through a chain of conditions to harm to others (for example, going to a party where there is drinking, and implicitly encouraging drinking by your drinking, and who knows where that leads others even though one is proud of being always under control with one's drinking) that it became really easy to abstain from drinking. So observance of the precepts as a kind of dana, a kind of giving "security and freedom" by one's morality. Neat. > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265 Han! I am disappointed that you would give me this kind of encouragement! I am already fighting an internet addiction. haha - just joking. You are always a very very good Dhamma friend! This will be my last post in this series. In a week or so, I will be taking a leave of absence for around 6 months, but I look forward to discussing with you in the Autumn. (My allocated 30 minutes a day on the internet will be consumed by baseball, and I don't want to argue with my wife about it.) Thank you for this series and the consistently pleasant vibe you give off at DSG! Metta, Phil #69630 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:14 am Subject: Daana Corner (21) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “The Donee” (2 of 3 parts) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ King Kosala once asked the Buddha to whom alms should be given (S.i,98). The Buddha replied that alms should be given to those by giving to whom one becomes happy. Then the king asked another question: To whom should alms be offered to obtain great fruit? The Buddha discriminated the two as different questions and replied that alms offered to the virtuous bears great fruit. He further clarified that offerings yield great fruit when made to virtuous recluses who have eliminated the five mental hindrances (nivarana) and culivated moral habits, concentration, wisdom, emancipation and knowledge and vision of emancipation (sila, samadhi, pañña, vimutti, vimuttinanadassana). In the Sakkasamyutta (S.i,233) Sakka asked the same question from the Buddha: Gifts given to whom bring the greatest result? The Buddha replied that what is given to the Sangha bears great results. Here the Buddha specifies that what he means by "Sangha" is the community of those upright noble individuals who have entered the path and who have established themselves in the fruit of saintship, and who are endowed with morality, concentration and wisdom. It is important to note that "Sangha" according to the Vinaya means a sufficient group of monks to represent the Order of monks for various ecclesiastical purposes (Vin. i,319). But in the suttas "Sangha" means the four pairs of noble individuals or the eight particular individuals (cattari purisayugani, attha purisapuggala), i.e., those who are on the path to stream-entry, once-returning, non-returning, and arahantship, and those who have obtained the fruits thereof. The Magha Sutta (Sn.p.86) gives a detailed account of the virtues of the arahant to show to whom alms should be offered by one desiring merit. “The Donee” to be continued. Han #69631 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (19) hantun1 Dear Phil, Phil: I find that it wasn't until I reflected more deeply that drinking alcohol was connected through a chain of conditions to harm to others (for example, going to a party where there is drinking, and implicitly encouraging drinking by your drinking, and who knows where that leads others even though one is proud of being always under control with one's drinking) that it became really easy to abstain from drinking. So observance of the precepts as a kind of dana, a kind of giving "security and freedom" by one's morality. Neat. Han: Very well said, Phil. It also fits in well with AN 4. 99 Sikkhaa-pada sutta, quoted by James. We can ask ourselves which type of person we want to be: “He himself doesn't abstain from intoxicants that cause heedlessness and doesn't encourage others in undertaking abstinence from intoxicants that cause heedlessness. Such is the individual who practices neither for his own benefit nor for that of others.” (or) “He himself abstains from intoxicants that cause heedlessness and encourages others in undertaking abstinence from intoxicants that cause heedlessness. Such is the individual who practices for his own benefit and for that of others.” ----------- I look forward to resuming talks with you in the Autumn. Please enjoy your ‘leave of absence.’ With metta and deepest respect, Han #69632 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:45 am Subject: Present, past and not-so-classifiable. nilovg Hi Sarah, Quotes: Visuddhimagga states that the dying-consciousbness always has a past > object. As to the patisandhicitta having a present object, this is > only said because the object of the last javanacittas still lasts for > a moment, or even a little longer. I read (T.A. p. 208) that in that > case even four more moments of bhavangacittas have a present object. > This is in the case of the last javanacittas accorring in a mind-door > process. But the rebirth-consciousness and bhavangacittas that have a > present object are doorfreed. ..... S: I'd like to suggest a few further points here: But when rebirth-linking occurs thus with three kinds of objects, ***the death consciousness next to which it appears has only a past or a not so classifiable object, there being no death consciousness with a present object.*** Therefore the manner of its occurrence in the happy destinies and the unhappy destinies should be understood thus, namely, that rebirth-linking [consciousness] occurs with one of three kinds of objects next to death [consciousness] with one of two kinds of objects." ------- N: You are right, I should have been more careful: the death- consciousness never has a present object, it can be past or not-so- classifiable. ---------- 1) As we know, the patisandhi, bhavangas and cuti always experience the same object. So, it doesn't make any sense to me that a *present* object of the first few bhavangas can become a *past* object of later bhavangas and the cuti citta. -------- N: I see no problem. The object is always similar. Only, the term present object is used for the patisandhicitta and a few more bhavangacittas (T.A. p. 208 mentions four moments) when the object of the last javanas in a mind-door process is still 'present'. For all the following bhavangacittas and the last bhavanga, the death- consciousness, the object is past, or, in the case of not-so- classifiable, it is not-so-classifiable. -------- S:2) However, as in the case of the paccavekkanas discussed or the sense-door object being experienced by the immediately following mind- door process, the *present* object is a 'na-vattabba (present)* object for the later cittas. ------ N: Yes. But not a concept. We cannot say that what is past *has to be* a concept, or that navatta is always a concept. We had a long discussion in a Thai session. --------- S:3) A *past* object remains a past object, i.e a concept, such as past kamma. ---------- N: I would like to differentiate past object, concept and navatta. For example with reference to the ruupajhanacittas and the aruupa- jhaanacittas. The aruupa-jhaanacitta of the second stage has as meditation subject the ‘base consisting of boundless consciousness’, which is the jhaanacitta that occurred previously with boundless space as object and which has fallen away and is thus past. Evenso, the aruupa-jhaanacitta of the fourth stage, the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception, has as object the jhaanacitta that occurred having ‘nothingness’ as meditation subject and that has fallen away. Thus, the fourth aruupa-jhaanacitta also has a past object. Past object is here different from concept. Perhaps we should discuss more whether a reality that is past is necessarily a pa~n~natti. Take the case of the rupa that is the object in a mind-door process when it has just fallen away. Or the case of a stage of insight in a mind-door process that has as object nama or rupa (just fallen away). Insight is developed of paramattha dhammas, not of concepts. I also think of the discussions about nimitta: each of the five khandhas (realities) has a nimitta. S: 4) You mentioned that the "dying-consciousness always has a past object". There is a lot more detail in "The Dispeller' (Sammohavinodani), 711ff. Here it indicates that: "...rebirth-linking has three kinds of objects, namely, past, present and not so classifiable (S: Na vattabba). Non-perceptive rebirth-linking has no object. Herein, in the sphere of boundless consciousness and the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, the object of rebirth-linking is past (S: i.e concept only) that of the ten kinds of sense-sphere rebirth- linking is past or present (S: as detailed in the T.A. quote discussed); that of the rest is not so classifiable. ------- N: See what I wrote above. ---------- S: So here it indicates that death consciousness doesn't always have a past object. In other words, if the patisandhi and first few bhavanga cittas experience a *present* object, a reality, e.g a sign of kamma such as visible object or sound, then I understand the subsequent bhavanga cittas and cuti citta will experience the same object, but it will be a na-vattabba (not so classifiable) object. ----- N: I think it is navatta in the case of rupajhaana and the first and third stage of aruupajhaana. In that case the rebirth-consciousness, the bhavangacittas and the death-consciousness of one life have the same object, namely navatta. For the rest, see above. To me this is no prblem. -------- S: I was merely using this as another example of 'na vattabba' and to indicate that I don't believe the 'present' object of bhavanga cittas becomes a 'past' object in the same lifetime. ------ N: The object does not change. See above. We have to consider in what sense the term present object is used. It is in a specific sense, because in the case of doorfreed cittas it is not in the usual sense of present object. But I do not claim to understand everything about this subject. Nina. #69633 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. nilovg Dear Matheesha, The difference between the characteristic of rupa and the characteristic ofnama is directly known in mind-door processes. It is not some indirect, abstract information about rupa, that is more like thinking. Insight is not thinking, it is direct understanding of what appears. This leads to detachment from nama and rupa, to having less inclination to taking them for a self. Nina. Op 17-mrt-2007, om 8:16 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > So when it comes to nama-rupa paricceda nana (the insight of > differentiating nama and rupa) we don't have the ability to actually > sense rupa, but we differentiate indirect information of rupa in nama > form, against nama itself. #69634 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Present, past and not-so-classifiable. sarahprocter... Hi Nina, Thx for your further comments, some of which I'll have to consider further. A couple of quick clarifications/comments only for now: --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > S:2) However, as in the case of the paccavekkanas discussed or the > sense-door object being experienced by the immediately following mind- > door > process, the *present* object is a 'na-vattabba (present)* object for > the > later cittas. > ------ > N: Yes. But not a concept. We cannot say that what is past *has to > be* a concept, or that navatta is always a concept. ... S: Here I made clear in my earlier posts to Scott that in the case of paccavekkana cittas (following lokuttara cittas), the object is a paramattha dhamma by way of na-vattabba. So I agree, *not* a concept. Both concepts and paramattha dhammas can be navattabba objects. .... > S:3) A *past* object remains a past object, i.e a concept, such as past > kamma. > ---------- > N: I would like to differentiate past object, concept and navatta. > For example with reference to the ruupajhanacittas and the aruupa- > jhaanacittas. The aruupa-jhaanacitta of the second stage has as > meditation subject the ‘base consisting of boundless consciousness’, <...> .... S: Yes, good points. All jhanas experience concepts except for these 2 exceptions as discussed many times before. .... >Perhaps we should discuss > more whether a reality that is past is necessarily a pa~n~natti. > Take the case of the rupa that is the object in a mind-door process > when it has just fallen away. Or the case of a stage of insight in a > mind-door process that has as object nama or rupa (just fallen away). > Insight is developed of paramattha dhammas, not of concepts. ... S: Yes. In these cases (as I discussed in my recent posts to Scott), the objects are of course paramattha dhammas (by way of na vattabba). Even though the dhammas in question have just fallen away, they are however referred to as 'present realities' which appear when experienced in this subsequent mind-door process. It's interesting, but what is important of course is the understanding of what is appearing regardless of the name we call it. What can be proved now is that namas and rupas can be directly known and awareness can develop. What is seen is visible object and this can be known directly regardless of whether we call it past, present or navattabba! Metta, Sarah ======== #69635 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. sarahprocter... Nina, I just got a message from yahoo to say this post I sent yesterday (or was it the day before?) could not be delivered to DSG for some reason! So I'm re-posting it out of sequence now! Btw, I just looked at the examples given in Dispeller and all the cuti citta examples in the sensuous realms do seem to have had past objects as you said. S ======================= sent Friday before my other post yest. =========== Hi Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > (I pray Howard and James do not see me). .... S: ;-);-) .... > > We are in difficult area and I do not understand everything here. The > Visuddhimagga states that the dying-consciousbness always has a past > object. As to the patisandhicitta having a present object, this is > only said because the object of the last javanacittas still lasts for > a moment, or even a little longer. ... S: This is a good clarification. I remember reading about 'preset object', but quite possibly in this context. Still, I thought I recalled K.Sujin saying there is a little more to it...we may come across more. .... I read (T.A. p. 208) that in that > case even four more moments of bhavangacittas have a present object. > This is in the case of the last javanacittas accorring in a mind-door > process. But the rebirth-consciousness and bhavangacittas that have a > present object are doorfreed. .... S: I just checked, thank you and yes, this is clear. I'd probably read in Ab.Sangaha the part about 'when present objects have come into range [of consciousness (S.last javana cittas)], relinking and existence-continuum also have present objects.' I had wrongly assumed it referred to all bhavangas. The commentary elaborates as you write. Lots more interesting detail there I see about 'sign of kamma' etc. .... > Sarah to Phil: understanding of such *present dhammas* as anatta. The terms and > mechanics > are not important, but the understanding and confidence in the > knowing of > such dhammas are important.> > Hear, hear! ..... S: !! Metta, Sarah ======= #69636 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. upasaka_howard Hi, Matheesha - In a message dated 3/17/07 2:17:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, dhammachat@... writes: > Hi Howard, Nina, Sarah, others, > > >When we see, there IS visual content. When we hear, there IS sound. > In the cases > >of thinking and recalling, though, the object is a mind-projected, > shadow > >object that is part and parcel of the mental process and not a > reality, despite > >how good of a replica it might be. > > I have a related question which has been on my mind the past few days: > > Rupa can only be detected if it comes into contact with the sense > base and after the particular sensebase consciousness arises. This is > called phassa (or the coming together of the 3 is phassa/contact). > > Now phassa is a mental/nama dhamma. This is the first instance that > we actually start to experience something. > > Which suggests that whatever we experience we do so through a > mental/nama dhamma. What we see as rupa is a representation > of 'rupic' information and not a rupa dhamma in itself. > > So when it comes to nama-rupa paricceda nana (the insight of > differentiating nama and rupa) we don't have the ability to actually > sense rupa, but we differentiate indirect information of rupa in nama > form, against nama itself. > > I would welcome any comments, clarifications or corrections! > > with metta > > Matheesha > ========================== I think your inquiry is a good one. From the hard mind-matter dualism perspective, which is not my perspective, rupas are not just 5-sense-door expereinces, but phenomena that arise and cease independent of being objects of consciousness. From that hard-separation perspective, as I see it, there are at least two possible alternative scenarios. The most common scenario, as I understand it, is the following: The "external", mind-independent rupas are the only rupas there are. Contact with them is a matter of their making some sort of literal physical encounter with the corresponding sense, and that event conditioning the arising of a consciousness of that actual "external" rupa. The "sensation" that is the knowing of that rupa is not another rupa, but is the mere knowing of the rupa. So, in this view, there are only the "external" rupa and the "internal" consciousness which make contact via the corresponding sense door, the rupa somehow physically encountering the small bit of matter that is the particular 5-sense-door sense (eye sense or ear sense or whatever) and which, due to kamma presumably, arises just at the time and in the manner necessary for the interaction between rupa and it to occur and the corresponding consciousness to then result. An alternative scenario is that the contact (i.e., the comiong together) produces an "internal rupa" that is the sensation, and that is what there is actual direct consciousness of. In this scenario, there are two categories of rupa, the alleged external, mind-independent rupas, and the sensations - the alleged internal, mind-(inter)dependent rupas. In this scenario, as you point out, there is no knowing of the external rupa but only a knowing of an internal rupa, the sensation produced. I don't see that as an improvement on the prior scenario, but just a complication of it. I do understand the motivation for it, though. I think it is based on the sense of something "not quite right" with the idea of "internal" nama apprehending "external", mind-independent rupa, kind of an "apples and oranges" problem. From my perspective, if that is one's basis, a better solution would be my radical phenomenalist one in which all conditioned dhammas, namas and rupas alike, are "internal", experiential phenomena. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #69637 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kusala and akusala, Can I have "Akusala for 200 Alex" jonoabb Hi Colette Good to see you still around. colette wrote: > Hi Jonothan, > Only a few seconds: Yeah, me too. >> Thanks for the encouragement, but the problem >> > > colette: John Lennon said: "I tell them there's no problem, only > solutions" Don't be so negative. > > >> with the approach you >> suggest is that any choices made are only as soundly based as our >> ignorance and wrong view will permit. > > colette: it sounds as if we have a believer in the Qliphoth, or > keliphot. Why do you personalize, gratify, and magnify, IGNORANCE and > WRONG VIEW? they permit anything if they were conscious or had > consciousness <.....> > >> That is not to say there is never >> wholesomeness or even perhaps awareness, but these moments are >> in the minority, and cannot be summoned to be present when we >> are making choices. >> > > colette: who taught you how to be human? Where did this users manual > come from? Where is this users manual? You have to see yourself as > the prey and preditor all in the same thought. > > INSTICT. > > Step right up, place your bets. Everybodies a winner. You don't like negativity. You like an approach that is a positive one rather than a negative one. But I wonder how you would regard the Buddha's description of life as suffering, of the body as foul, of the sense-pleasures as a danger, of being locked in the cycle of birth and death, of the extreme length of time needed to develop the path, etc -- positive or negative? In conventional terms these would be regarded as negative views rather than positive ones, wouldn't you say? I think the best approach is one that is neither positive or negative, but simply in accordance with the way things are (a *realistic* one). >> If kusala/akusala are concepts of illusory situations we find >> ourselves in, it would not be possible to know whether one's >> own presently arising consciousness is kusala or aksuala. >> > > colette: how are things doing down there in the accounting dept.? You > micro-managers and/or numbers crunchers are something. Why does it > have to be deducible and, no less, deducible so that you can rest > assured that your GLASS HOUSE IS BETTER THAN THE GLASS HOUSE OF YOUR > NEIGHBOR? > Well why a given individual might be interested in kusala/akusala is another question. But as to whether kusala/akusala can be known as and when it arises, I think it's very much a part of the teachings that it can. Otherwise how would the development of samatha or vipassana, in fact any kind of kusala, be possible? Jon #69638 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 3, no 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk) - In a message dated 3/17/07 3:57:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > when I read this to Lodewijk I expected an answer like this. But > wait, until you see the next issue. Further on the rupa eyesense is > described. What you write about this, I agree with. No problem. > The Commentator first describes the conventional eye to show the > difference with eyesense in the ultimate sense. It does not matter > whether it is primitive for our time, it is only what people in > general mean by the eye. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I understand what you mean here. I look forward to "the next issue" where there is further description. :-) ----------------------------------------- > Nina. > ==================== With metta, Howard #69639 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Present, past and not-so-classifiable. nilovg Hi Sarah, I fully agree. This is also what Kh Sujin often answers: no matter what we call it, don't forget what can be experienced now, regardless how we call it. (good for Phil, hallo Phil!) I liked your asterisks, good for everybody. She also said this with regard to nimitta, and to yoniso manasikara. I listened to the first part of the audio, thanks very much. I am downloading the other parts now. I hope to discuss more with Scott about these. BTW we had one proofcopy of Perfections, and it is a beauty, also the cover with the bodytree. The lay out is so nice. It takes time before we get the copies here, ready to send, for all who are interested. They can contact me off line and I have already collected postal addresses. Nina. Op 17-mrt-2007, om 12:28 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > It's interesting, but what is important of course is the > understanding of > what is appearing regardless of the name we call it. > > What can be proved now is that namas and rupas can be directly > known and > awareness can develop. What is seen is visible object and this can be > known directly regardless of whether we call it past, present or > navattabba! #69640 From: "colette" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:43 am Subject: Truth = ? ksheri3 Good Morning James, Your chosen moniker is rather amusing, but is, well, obvious: I mean you stand out as if you were wearing a RED COAT against a solid GREEN BACKGROUND and my team and I were to disrupt your progress. <...> I can be blind drunk but as long as you follow standard operating procedure by wearing that Red Coat against a Green Background, then I simply can't see how even Helen Keller could miss a target like that. "(1) Four councils were held for the rehearsal of the Tripitaka namely, the first at Rajagrha, in the year of Shakya Muni's death; the second at Vaisali, some 100 years after the Buddha; the third at the time of King Acoka, about 235 years after the Master; the fourth at the time of King Kanishka, the first century A.D. But all these councils were held to compile the Hinayana sutras, and nothing is known of the rehearsal of the Mahayana books. Some are of opinion that the first council was held within the Sattapanni cave, near Rajagrha, where the Hinayana Tripitaka was rehearsed by 500 monks, while outside the cave there assembled a greater number of monks, who were not admitted into the cave, and rehearsed the Mahayana Tripitaka. This opinion, however, is based on no reliable source." <....> I hope you enjoy the upcoming events that may give you pleasure in your life, if ya can all it living, I prefer truth and so I say dying. <....> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: <...> > Thank you for your reply. Actually, I was hesitant to reply to your > original post, but since you had written to me directly I felt > obligated. I just gave you standard, Buddhist advice—nothing > shocking or controversial. I could go through this post and respond > to everything you have written, but I don't have the time and I don't > really see that it would be effective. I think it is obvious that > you have some serious mental disorders which should be treated with > counseling or medications, or both. Until you get these gross > delusions under control, you won't be able to understand the Buddha's > teaching. > > Metta, > James > #69641 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Hi Howard, you may not like it either. Lolol ;-)) Nina. Op 17-mrt-2007, om 15:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Yes, I understand what you mean here. I look forward to "the next > issue" where there is further description. :-) #69642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. nilovg Hi Howard and Matheesha, (* hello Phil), The first scenario is fine, except that contact, phassa is not physical contact, but a cetasika that assists the citta to clearly know the object. this is good: So, a small miracle takes place: they come together just in time. They arise and fall away but the meeting, the association happens. As you say: the small bit of matter; it is extremely tiny, right. There are outer aayatanas and inner aayatanas that meet. It is because of the proper conditions that they meet. The outer rupa has not fallen away so that it can still be object, and the senseorgan, the inner aayatana has not fallen away yet so that it can still serve as physical base and doorway. Because of their meeting there are conditions for the relevant sense-cognition, which is also an inner aayatana. *Each moment of seeing, hearing etc. is a small miracle. This reminds us that we cannot create them, they are dhammas which are conditioned. They have no owner. We cannot say: come forward eyesense and visible object and meet, so that seeing can arise. And this is the purpose (hello Phil) of learning the Abhidhamma. What we take for my eye, my seeing are elements over which we have no power. Nina. Op 17-mrt-2007, om 14:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Contact with them is a matter of their making some sort of > literal physical encounter with the corresponding sense, and that > event > conditioning the arising of a consciousness of that actual > "external" rupa. The > "sensation" that is the knowing of that rupa is not another rupa, > but is the mere > knowing of the rupa. So, in this view, there are only the > "external" rupa and > the "internal" consciousness which make contact via the > corresponding sense > door, the rupa somehow physically encountering the small bit of > matter that is > the particular 5-sense-door sense (eye sense or ear sense or > whatever) and > which, due to kamma presumably, arises just at the time and in the > manner > necessary for the interaction between rupa and it to occur and the > corresponding > consciousness to then result. #69643 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:55 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the clarifications: Sarah: "...When we (or the texts) refer to the 'present object', the present dhamma, this applies only to the immediately following mind-door object after the sense-door process has fallen away. What you refer to are the concepts experienced by later mind-door processes." Present Scott: Got it. Sarah: "...What you are referrring to are concepts on account of the sound heard before. This is not the 'reality' of sound. (However, I've also heard it said that all concepts can be considered as na-vattabba)." Present Scott: That would be concepts-as-objects, I suppose, and all concepts fall under the rubric of na-vattabba (which applies to other objects as well). Sarah: "...'present objects by way of na-vattabba' can be experienced a long, long time later however...the object of the next life time's patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas remains a present object. How? By way of na-vattabba...if the citta or cetasika just fallen away is experienced by the subsequent mental process, it is referred to as the *present* object...this is why the objects of mind-door processes (dhammaaramma.na) may be namas, rupas or concepts. If namas could not be directly known, it would be impossible to develop satipatthana." Present Scott: Okay, this makes sense. You noted earlier: "...sanna arises with each citta. Without sa~n~na marking and remembering the object at each of these moments, any such 'recollection' or marking (with whatever kind of cittas -akusala, kusala or even kiriya cittas of the arahant) would be impossible." And, as you clarify just here (Sarah: The word 'recollected' is a little deceptive. The dhammas involved are directly known, not thought about as such...), 'recollection' by way of na-vattabba is not simply 'remembering' although sa~n~na has to be involved. It is, perhaps, a special case of experience wherein a characteristic of a 'past' dhamma is object. And this is about citta 'recollecting' its object in this way, not 'anyone' doing anything. Sarah "...Rapidly succeeding paccavekkana cittas directly knowing the dhammas involved, such as the path factors that arose and so on. In the case of jhana paccevekkana cittas, they directly know the jhana factors which arose and so on...Usually, only just fallen away (like in the example of the sense door object or namas just fallen away). Sometimes, like in the case of the bhavangas, it may be that the object itself has long since fallen away...(Another extreme example of long, long fallen away would refer to a Buddha's or key disciple's recollections, I believe)." So, might the case, say, of object of bhavanga-citta be an example of this sort of 'recollecting': The characteristic of the object of the death-consciousness, marked by sa~n~na, is recollected by way of na-vattabba with the arising of each bhavanga-citta? Na-vattabba Scott: "In other words, there are the specific cases of this reviewing, as you give in relation to path factors, etc., and this is also the general process whereby any object comes to be taken by citta, one after another in a series. Is this so? Sarah: "I'm not quite clear on your meaning in 'general process'." Nor am I. I think I was considering 'ordinary' dhammas. I think I was wondering if, say, when I bring to mind ('remember'? - 'think about'?) an earlier situation where dosa arose in a situation where two children are fighting in the back seat, can the characteristic of this dosa be 'recollected' (as part of but not 'remembering' the event) by way of na-vattabba? And what if this was noticed the first time it arose as 'present object' and marked as such, would this make a difference? Sincerely, Scott. #69644 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:53 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (35) dhammanando_... Hi Sarah, > S: I don't know. it does sound a bit mundane compared to pubbayoga, > pubbacariyaa etc, but you could be right. Maybe Nina or Ven D. might > know. Pubbakicca refers to the preparatory tasks identified in Path of Purification Ch. III 16, namely, the cutting off of impediments and development of skill in absorption. Best wishes, Dhammanando #69645 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (19) buddhatrue Hi Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear James and others, > > I thank James very much for the sutta quotes. James: I'm glad you appreciated them. > Then only, I understand what it is meant by "promoting one's own good" and "promoting the > good of another." James: Yeah, it is somewhat confusing. I'm not sure why both ideas aren't always put in the same sutta. The second sutta is about the precepts, but the first seems to be rather general. Do you think it could be applied to dana? To practice generosity and to encourage others to practice generosity? > > Thank you very much, James. > Respectfully, > Han Metta, James #69646 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (14) scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I appreciate your kind remarks, as well as: Sarah: "It is due to conditions. I also find that reflecting on the fruition of past kamma is calming. Also, that the 'bad dream' is gone. Only 'now' and the present thinking that's the problem...." A bit of cross-referencing: Is this, as well, an example of recollection by way of na-vattabba, or would this simply be thinking ('reflecting')? My guess: just thinking. But if so, how does this condition calm (which it does seem to). Sarah: "May such 'bad dreams' be a condition for compassion for all the other damaged 'streams'." Yeah. S. #69647 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:13 am Subject: Re: Truth = ? buddhatrue Hi Colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Morning James, I can assure you that I don't use drugs; I don't hate you nor do I have anger towards you; and I would never wear a red coat against a green background-- how tacky!! ;-)) I'm sorry my posts have bothered you so much. Believe it or not, I was genuinely trying to help you. But, maybe I did so in a clumsy way. Anyway, let's just forget it and move on. Metta, James #69648 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:19 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Friends, the discussion continues: 8. 'Venerable Naagasena, I don't blame him for giving, but for not having made a barter with the beggar, and given away himself rather, instead of his wife and children.' [280] 'That, O king, would be an act of a wrong doer, to give himself when he was asked for his wife and children. For the thing asked for, whatever it is, is that which ought to be given. And such is the practice of the good. Suppose, O king, a man were to ask that water should be brought, would any one who then brought him food have done what he wanted?' 'No, Sir. The man who should have given what he first asked to be brought would have done what he wanted.' 'Just so, O king, when the Brahman asked Vessantara the king for his wife and children, it was his wife and children that he gave. If the Brahman, O king, had asked for Vessantara's body, then would Vessantara have not saved his body, he would neither have trembled nor been stained (by the love of self), but would have given away and abandoned his own body. If, O king, any one had come up to Vessantara the king, and asked of him, saying: "Become my slave," then would he have given away and abandoned his own self, and in so giving would he have felt no pain. === more to follow, connie. #69649 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:19 am Subject: Re: PoP quiz - next question. nichiconn Dear Sarah and other Curious Drop-outs, Sorry. The babies are in Visuddhimagga ch.14 and "Pinnocchio" is in ch. 17... no direct relation. The Path of Purity's Corrigenda page sent us to the wrong chapter. Leave the suffering babes and we'll jump to where we were supposed to have gone, only landing in Nanamoli's Path of Purification instead of U.Tin's Path of Purity: xvii.30 ....Having seen what is become as become, he has entered upon the way to dispassion for it, to the fading away of greed for it, to its cessation. This is how one with eyes sees.' (Iti.43 {c: Iti Twos, ch.2, xii}; Ps.i,159) . 31. Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood, [595] yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too, this mentality-materiality is void, soulless and without curiosity, <...snip...> 32. And this should be explained not only by means of the simile of the marionette, but also by means of the analogies on the sheaves of reeds and so on. For just as when two sheaves of reeds are propped one against the other, each one gives the other consolidating support, and when one falls the other falls, so too, in the five-constituent becoming mentality-materiality occurs as an interdependent state, each of its components giving the other consolidating support, and when one falls owing to death, the other falls too. <...cut...> Yes, the same as the SN 12.67 Nalakalapiyo Sutta reeds & SN 5.9 Sela Sutta puppet. mmm... not sure slingblade's ready to tackle the babies in relation to daana yet ;) heap up more grass and sticks while i stare a bit more thinking to cut up the very long-haired sister coming up. peace, connie #69650 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:19 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear James, > 'But then, O king, if some give away even their own lives, why do you so > violently attack Vessantara, that king of givers, for the virtuous > bestowal of his child and wife? Is there not a general practice in > world, an acknowledged custom, according to which it is allowable for a > father who has fallen into debt, or lost his livelihood, to deposit his > son in pledge, or sell him?' > > 'Yes, that is so.' > > 'Well, in accordance therewith was it that Vessantara, O king, in > suffering and distress at not having obtained the insight of the > Omniscient Ones, pledged and sold his wife and children for that spiritual treasure. So that he gave away what other people had given away, he did what other people had done. Why then do you, O king, so violently attack him, the king of givers?' J: This is a very faulty argument in favor of giving away your wife and children as an act of dana. I could go on and on explaining why this argument doesn't work, but I don't really have the time right now. I just wanted to focus attention on it. > C: I'm curious as to what you'd give as a faultless argument in favor of it, but as you're busy... later, connie #69651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:27 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, As to the “sentient eye” or eyesense, this is to be found, according to the “Atthasåliní”, in the middle of the black circle, surrounded by white circles, and it permeates the ocular membranes “as sprinkled oil permeates seven cotton wicks.” We read: And it is served by the four elements doing the functions of sustaining, binding, maturing and vibrating [1], just as a princely boy is tended by four nurses doing the functions of holding, bathing, dressing and fanning him. And being upheld by the caloric order, by thought (citta) and nutriment, and guarded by life and attended by colour, odour, taste, etc., the organ, no bigger in size than the head of a louse, stands duly fulfilling the nature of the basis and the door of visual cognition, etc. .... The “Visuddhimagga” (XIV, 37) gives the following definition of eyesense [2] : Herein, the eye’s characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see. Its function is to pick up (an object) among visible data. It is manifested as the footing of eye-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements (the four Great Elements) born of kamma sourcing from desire to see. We have desire to see, we are attached to all sense-impressions and, thus, there are still conditions for kamma to produce rebirth, to produce seeing, hearing and the other sense-impressions, and also to produce the sense-organs which are the conditions for the experience of sense objects. Also in future lives there are bound to be sense- impressions. Eyesense seems to last and we are inclined to take it for “self”. It seems that there can be a long moment of seeing and that the same eyesense keeps on performing its function. However, eyesense arises and then falls away. At the next moment of seeing there is another eyesense again. All these eyesenses are produced by kamma, throughout our life. We may find it hard to grasp this truth because we are so used to thinking of “my eyesense” and to consider it as something lasting. ----------- 1. The earth element performs its function of sustaining, the water element of holding together, the fire element of maintaining or maturing, and the wind element of oscillation. 2. See also Dhammasangaùi § 597 and Atthasåliní II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 312. ******* Nina. #69652 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana TGrand458@... Ho Sobhana Your questions are good because they are both challenging and deal with real common sense things (as opposed to theory that is being mistaken as real things.) Just some general remarks regarding the differences of the various formations we experience... Kamma is too complex to ever get a total picture of its workings IMO. I think we CAN see kamma in principle occurring when for example, bad actions are often followed by bad results and vice versa. But as to exactly why some are poor and some are rich, by trying to understand past life experiences as to why, is just not going to happen (unless perhaps meditation skills are perfected.) Bill Gates is rich now because he is smart and a smart businessman. Those conditions can be understood here and now. But as to why he was born smart and someone else wasn't, well, we're just as blind to that as we are to our own past lives. The only thing in this regard that "guides my thinking" are principles...such as the conservation of energy laws, etc. Of course, the Buddha's teaching on the subject is a huge factor. But I for one cannot just accept "unknown teachings" without some sort of logical principle or other evidence to support it. BTW, I consider things such as children's abilities to know about past events in other countries, or abilities to play instruments, etc., evidence that supports past life outlooks. So, for me, we have vague but substantial empirical evidence in "mental visionaries, prodigies, etc. We have what for my money is the greatest mind in history (Buddha) claiming direct knowledge of such, and we have scientific principles that would argue against things arising or disappearing for no reason. With this evidence, I can tacitly accept that there is kamma, put that aside, and continue with the work of overcoming suffering by trying to increase insight into impermanence, suffering, and no-self ... i.e., conditionality. In a message dated 3/16/2007 10:47:44 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, shennieca@... writes: Hello TG, all, Thanks for your reply. I'd like to make a comparison: "Some lotuses might be born in the water and grow in the water, but would rise up from the water and stand without being soiled by the water" (SN 6:560) Some flowers rise above the water and some flowers don't. Even flowers are born with different conditions and they are also subjected to conditioning. We see differences in people all over the world because there are different types of conditions for each of them. 'You' and 'I' are both subjected to conditions and conditioning. I don't understand "who" or "what" or "how" makes 'your' conditions different from 'mine'? In christianity, it is easy, because God did it. But how does Buddhism explain this? TG: Christianity doesn't explain anything. They just make unsubstantiated claims. Please follow...different contacts result in different formations. If I punch a hole in a peace of paper...that is one type of contact. If I tear a piece of paper, that is another type of contact. Due to these different contacts, the paper will exhibit different formations. This same principle applies to all contacts including mental contacts. Mental states will take on different formations due to the different contacts/experiences encountered. People born in different parts of the world have encountered different contacts and have "formed" differently...but mentally and physically. What happened to the suffering people in Rwanda? We can say that because of their bad kamma, they are born poor and have to suffer. But kamma is intention which they have NO control over. So, these poor people in Africa just stumbled upon bad conditioning? And Bill Gates just stumbled upon good kamma that made him a billionaire? So, "what-is-it" that makes the conditioning for Bill Gates different from the people in Rwanda? TG: My above comments have addressed this in all the detail I can offer. Does the abhidhamma provide answers like this? Sutta wise, it is easy to explain, because people made good choices or bad choices therefore they get good or bad results. But in the abhidhamma, it is explained by kusala citta and akusala citta. So, for Bill Gates, most of his past lives, his kusala citta appears more often than the poor Rwandans? Why?? How?? For people who attained Nibbana, is it because they have been in Samsara longer than those who have not achieved Nibbana yet? Is it like "first come, first serve" basis? TG: No, I think that it was no doubt due to the presence of people like the Buddha that was responsible for so many at that time attaining nibbana. Again, the contacts were available at that time that were conducive to leading the mind in that direction. People presumably are older now than 2500 years ago...and I'm not aware of any who have attained Nibbana now...though there may be. I totally agree that we cannot control dhamma, I just want to understand the workings/mechanics of these uncontrollable conditions. TG: I think only the general principles are going to be understood. I started off this post by outlining them. Too much attention being applied to this subject might thwart real progress in overcoming suffering in that it will take time away from actual practice of insight. TG: The reason we are all different is due to "diversity of contact." I.E., because we are all subject to different contacts, the results are also different. Those who have been subject to ignorant ideas are more likely to lean towards ignorance and generate actions (kamma) that are harmful. Those who have been in proximity to wise ideas are more likely to be wise and generate actions (kamma) that are beneficial. Sobhana: This diversity of contact is also beyond our control, therefore, I don't understand why some people are born near contacts with wise people and some people aren't. Why?? TG: It is because of conditions...cause and effect. You seem to be looking for a Christianity type basis or reason to hold onto. Not going to happen in Buddhism. Just conditions. If I tear a piece of paper, that paper has nothing to say about it. The real funny thing is...if I tear it, it is conditions that lead to that action and actually "I" have nothing to say about it either. But, suffering leads to beneficial actions and insight, beneficial actions and insight lead to nibbana. The Buddha found the solution due to some pretty smart folks in his day to learn from, and trial and error. TG #69653 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > > HI Sarah > > I?@might read it but probably not because I am three posts (one to > Jon, one to Nina and one to Nitesh) away from starting my baseball > season break, and I don't want to get caught in any more discussions. .... S: Understood;-) Yes, 'unclean' was the wrong word - I couldn't remember the right one. I was thinking of a cross between you 'scrubbing the bath' and potty training (#69518) and James' post to the StarKids you might not read (but which you'd enjoy if you didn't read it before!!). I won't say more because I've probably reached your limit already, lol:-). Have fun with the baseball season break and look forward to chatting later. Metta, Sarah ======== #69654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:27 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 10, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin spoke about the sutta on the two old bråhmins in the Bovornives Temple, explaining that it deals with our daily life. I would like to quote her explanation: “Conditions are different for different people. Some people think of themselves all the time, they do not do anything for their relatives or friends. From morning until night they are busy with their work, making a living for their family, and they have to face many problems with regard to their duties. If one does not accumulate kusala so that it becomes one's nature, kusala citta will not arise very easily. One should accumulate kusala when one is in the company of other people, while one is working or while one has free time, otherwise there may not be any opportunity for kusala. When one takes a rest after a busy day there is likely to be lobha. One clings to self, one looks for pleasure, for distraction. Then one thinks that there is no time for kusala. The two old bråhmins had faced many problems concerning their families. However, this is the case with all of us. We are bound to have moments that we are worried and disturbed. All kinds of problems arise each day. If there are no problems concerning our house, our family, or our work, there are numerous other occasions for worry. We are worried in this life, but we should remember that there was also worry in former lives. These worries belong to the past. Evenso the worry in this life cannot stay. There was worry in the past and there will also be worry in future lives. One worries about sickness and pain. Also in former lives there was worry about sickness, although we do not know from which diseases we were suffering. In this life we may have the same diseases or other ones we did not have before, but there is worry just as there was in past lives during the cycle of birth and death, and there will be worry again in lives to come. We should not forget to consider again and again eight ‘grounds for a sense of urgency’ (Vis. IV, 63): birth, ageing, sickness and death, the sufferings connected with unhappy rebirth, the suffering in the past rooted in the cycle of rebirths, the suffering in the future rooted in the cycle of rebirths, and the suffering in the present rooted in the search for nutriment. We cannot remember the sufferings of the past but they are not different from those arising in the present life, and also those in the future will not be different. If one has a house one is bound to worry about it again and again. If one has duties concerning one's daily work one is bound to worry again and again. Since we have a body we shall worry again and again about our health. We should ponder over the truth concerning the suffering in this life connected with the search for nutriment. We are actually searching food for dukkha. That is why we are continuously going around in the cycle, always travelling, time and again searching food for dukkha. ******* Nina. #69655 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:42 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (46) nichiconn Dear Friends, part one of six on Bhaddaaku.n.dalakesaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa / The comentary on the verses of Therii Bhaddaa Ku.n.dalakesaa: Luunakesiiti-aadikaa bhaddaaya ku.n.dalakesaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi padumuttarassa bhagavato kaale ha.msavatiinagare kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa ekadivasa.m satthu santike dhamma.m su.nantii satthaara.m eka.m bhikkhuni.m khippaabhi~n~naana.m agga.t.thaane .thapenta.m disvaa, adhikaarakamma.m katvaa ta.m .thaanantara.m patthetvaa yaavajiiva.m pu~n~naani katvaa The verses beginning With hair cut off are Therii Bhaddaa Ku.n.dalakesaa's. She too at the time of the Blessed One Padumuttara was born in a good family in the town of Ha.msavatii. One day, after she came of age, she heard the Doctrine in the presence of the Teacher. Seeing the Teacher place a certain bhikkhunii in the foremost position of those who have quick direct knowledge, she performed a meritorious deed, apsiring to that position. And throughout her life she made merit. kappasatasahassa.m devamanussesu sa.msaritvaa kassapabuddhakaale kikissa kaasira~n~no gehe sattanna.m bhaginiina.m abbhantaraa hutvaa, viisati vassasahassaani dasa siilaani samaadaaya komaaribrahmacariya.m carantii sa"nghassa vasanaparive.na.m kaaretvaa, For one hundred thousand aeons she journeyed on among devas and men. At the time of Buddha Kassapa, she was one of seven sisters in the household of Kikii, King of Kaasi [Benares]. For twenty thousand years she undertook the ten rules of virtuous conduct, practising the holy life as a virgin, and she had a residence built for the Order. eka.m buddhantara.m sugatiisuyeva sa.msaritvaa imasmi.m buddhuppaade raajagahe se.t.thikule nibbatti. Bhaddaatissaa naama.m ahosi. Saa mahataa parivaarena va.d.dhamaanaa vayappattaa, tasmi.myeva nagare purohitassa putta.m sattuka.m naama cora.m saho.d.dha.m gahetvaa raajaa.naaya nagaraguttikena maaretu.m aaghaatana.m niyyamaana.m, siihapa~njarena olokentii disvaa pa.tibaddhacittaa hutvaa sace ta.m labhaami, jiivissaami; no ce, marissaamiiti sayane adhomukhii nipajji. She journeyed on only in happy existences for one interval between Buddhas, and in this Buddha era, she was born in the home of a wealthy merchant in Raajagaha. Her name was Bhaddaa. She grew up with great attendance, and when she came of age, in that very city, looking from her grilled window, she saw a thief named Sattuka ("Enemy"), the son of a chief minister - [this thief] had been caught with his booty - as he was being led to the place of execution to be put to death by the town guardian on the order of the king. Athassaa pitaa ta.m pavatti.m sutvaa ekadhiitutaaya balavasineho sahassala~nja.m datvaa upaayeneva cora.m vissajjaapetvaa gandhodakena nhaapetvaa sabbaabhara.napa.tima.n.dita.m kaaretvaa paasaada.m pesesi. Bhaddaapi paripu.n.namanorathaa atirekaala"nkaarena ala"nkaritvaa ta.m paricarati. She became enamoured of him and said, "If I get him I shall live; if not, I shall die." Then she lay face down on her bed. When her father heard this news, because of the force of his love for his only daughter, he gave a bribe of a thousand coins. In this way he had the thief released, then had him bathed with scented water and adorned with all sorts of ornaments and sent him to the house. With her wish fulfilled, Bhaddaa dressed herself in an excess of ornaments and served him. Sattuko katipaaha.m viitinaametvaa tassaa aabhara.nesu uppannalobho bhadde, aha.m nagaraguttikena gahitamattova corapapaate adhivatthaaya devataaya "sacaaha.m jiivita.m labhaami, tuyha.m balikamma.m upasa.mharissaamii"ti patthana.m aayaaci.m, tasmaa balikamma.m sajjaapehiiti. Saa "tassa mana.m puuressaamii"ti balikamma.m sajjaapetvaa sabbaabhara.navibhuusitaa saamikena saddhi.m eka.m yaana.m abhiruyha "devataaya balikamma.m karissaamii"ti corapapaata.m abhiruhitu.m aaraddhaa. After Sattuka passed a few days there, greed arose for her ornaments, and he said, "Bhaddaa, as soon as the town guardian seized me, I said to the devataa inhabiting the Thieves' Precipice, 'If I am granted my life, I will bring you an offering.' Therefore acquiesce to an offering." Acquiescing to the offering, she thought, "I shall fulfil his intention." Adorned with all her ornaments, she mounted in a carriage with her husband and began to ascend the Thieves' Precipice, thinking, "I will make an offering to the devataa." Sattuko cintesi- "sabbesu abhiruhantesu imissaa aabhara.na.m gahetu.m na sakkaa"ti parivaarajana.m tattheva .thapetvaa tameva balibhaajana.m gaahaapetvaa pabbata.m abhiruhanto taaya saddhi.m piyakatha.m na kathesi. Saa i"ngiteneva tassaadhippaaya.m a~n~naasi. Sattuko, "bhadde, tava uttarasaa.taka.m omu~ncitvaa kaayaaruu.lhapasaadhana.m bha.n.dika.m karohii"ti. Saa, "saami, mayha.m ko aparaadho"ti? Sattuka thought, "With all these people going up [to the precipice], it is not possible to take her ornaments." So he had the people in her entourage stay there. He took the vessel for the offering, and climbing up the mountain with her, he did not make any friendly conversation. She knew his intentions through that very gesture. Sattuko said, "Bhaddaa, take off your outer garment and make a heap of the ornaments on your body." She said, "My lord, what is my fault?" "Ki.m nu ma.m, baale,'balikammattha.m aagato'ti sa~n~na.m karosi? Balikammaapadesena pana tava aabhara.na.m gahetu.m aagato"ti. "Kassa pana, ayya, pasaadhana.m, kassa ahan"ti? "Naaha.m eta.m vibhaaga.m jaanaamii"ti "Hotu, ayya, eka.m pana me adhippaaya.m puurehi, ala"nkataniyaamena ca aali"ngitu.m dehii"ti. So "saadhuu"ti sampa.ticchi. "You fool," he said, "what did you think? That I came in order to make an offering? On the contrary, the offering is a pretext. I came to take your ornaments." "But lord, whose ornaments are these?" she said. "Whose am I?" "I don't understand this division," he replied. "So be it, lord. But grant me one wish. Allow me to embrace you [while I am] still adorned." He agreed, saying, "So be it." Saa tena sampa.ticchitabhaava.m ~natvaa purato aali"ngitvaa pacchato aali"ngantii viya pabbatapapaate paatesi. So patitvaa cu.n.navicu.n.na.m ahosi. Taaya kata.m acchariya.m disvaa pabbate adhivatthaa devataa kosalla.m vibhaaventii imaa gaathaa abhaasi- "Na hi sabbesu .thaanesu, puriso hoti pa.n.dito; itthiipi pa.n.ditaa hoti, tattha tattha vicakkha.naa. "Na hi sabbesu .thaanesu, puriso hoti pa.n.dito; itthiipi pa.n.ditaa hoti, lahu.m atthavicintikaa"ti. (Apa. therii. 2.3.31-32). Seeing that he agreed, she embraced him in front, then [acting] as though she was going to embrace him from behind, she pushed him off the mountain cliff. He fell and was crushed to pieces. Seeing this marvel done by her, the devataa inhabiting that mountain, making known her proficiencty, spoke these verses: A man is not wise on all occasions. A woman is also wise, being skilful here and there. A man is not wise on all occasions. A woman is also wise, quickly thinking of what is useful. RD: Not in every case is Man tho wiser ever; Woman, too, when swift to see, may prove as clever. Not in every case is Man the wiser reckoned; Woman, too, is clever, an she think but a second.' === peace, connie #69656 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (19) hantun1 Dear James, James (referring to AN 4. 99 Sikkhaa-pada sutta): Do you think it could be applied to dana? To practice generosity and to encourage others to practice generosity? --------------------- Han: Yes, I think so. It is the same principle – setting a good example. You remember when I wrote, “I do not know whether any idea will work if a person is born to be stingy”, you responded by, “I don't believe that people are `born to be stingy'. Generosity can be taught and encouraged or the Buddha wouldn't have taught it.” You got a very good point there! When I wrote that what I had in mind was “carita” or nature or character of people such as raaga-carita, dosa-carita, moha-carita, saddha-carita, etc. which are difficult to eradicate. But as you rightly pointed out, the Buddha would not have taught it if people could not be encouraged to practice generosity. So, I think if one does not criticize a person for his stinginess, but rather quietly setting a good example, there is a good chance that that person may slowly follow suit. But it may take time, and a lot of patience! Respectfully, Han --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Han, > > James: Yeah, it is somewhat confusing. I'm not sure why both ideas > aren't always put in the same sutta. The second sutta is about the > precepts, but the first seems to be rather general. Do you think it > could be applied to dana? To practice generosity and to encourage > others to practice generosity? > > > #69657 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A final venting from phil, probably. m_nease Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:40 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A final venting from phil, probably. > I guess my point is that it seems to me > that it is never a single dhamma that is taken for a self or a > computer, but an innumerable number of them in retrospect. In other > words, I don't think a single eye-door process or a single > body-sense-door process is likely to be taken as a computer or as a > self, do you? .... S: I agree with you that usually the idea of 'atta' and certainly 'a computer' or 'self' is a result of innumerable dhammas perceived and thought about in such a way. Right--'idea' is the key-- However, ditthi (wrong view) can arise in an eye-door or body-sense-door process. In other words, there can be an idea of 'atta' of 'something' or 'someone' instantly, long before there is any thinking about 'computer' or 'self'. An idea of 'something' or 'someone'? Before thinking? M:>Or do you think it matters at all? ... S: Good Question! As Nina and I suggested to Phil - always good to check or consider this! I think it matters only in the sense that it's good to know how much deeply accumulated ditthi and sense of atta has been accumulated. Otherwise we might think: "Oh, I don't think of the computer or self as being real," without appreciating just how subtle and deeply held such views really are. Agreed. But I don't think I've quite got to the bottom of this--doesn't di.t.thi--the dhamma, not the concept--arise and subside before any deeply held views (concepts, in this sense, don't you think?) can be formed, by sa~n~naa and so on? Or do deeply held views arise at once, in single kha.naa, in a far more holistic way than I'm thinking? That is, can a 'deeply held view' really be a dhamma rather than a concept? I hope that makes some sense. On and off, to be honest. Thanks for trying. Always good to talk to you, Mike. Always a pleasure, Sarah. mike p.s. Am now able again to listen to mp3s while painting. Really enjoying 'Sri Lanka' at the moment. Thanks again. #69658 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:41 pm Subject: re: "scrambled brains" nichiconn dear colette, yes, the Visuddhimagga (aka Path of Purity, aka Path of Purification) would tend to read like "the mode of transmission from the Abhidharma"! As for my 'chicken and egg' quote from the Visuddhimagga ch14 "Exposition of the Aggregates", I can't give an exact sutta reference. But there, like the Mahayana councils, is another can of worms I've no appetite for... meaning I don't want to argue about whether any of it's the word of Buddha... I assume you agree that it's hard enough to agree on simple word definitions and other rules of the communication game in ordinary day to day existence and that when we start talking "Buddhism" the complications really come into play. Anyway, with my last few Visuddhimagga quotes and stories to you, I've kinda been thinking about how we can't even tie our shoes without some kind of jhaana and wondering what all you might mean by majick... in "Buddhist terms". :) A computer in the house!?!? Are you sure I can't snail mail you some cd's now? peace, connie #69659 From: "shennieca" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hi TG, Thanks for your reply. I've done something bad to you, I've ignorantly/accidentally cross-posted one of your replies in e-sangha forum. I'm sorry... :( I'll read your replies again and ponder over them. :) Buddha said he taught one thing and one thing only: Suffering and the way out of suffering. :) I think I should be focusing my study to the 8fold path instead of asking funny questions! :D Thanks TG. Warm regards, Sobhana #69660 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:19 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha buddhatrue Hi Connie and all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > C: I'm curious as to what you'd give as a faultless argument in favor of > it, but as you're busy... I appreciate you providing this series of information, even though I disagree with it, because I don't believe that anything should be censored. Herman got very upset about this information and tried to censor it, but that isn't the proper approach. It should be examined clearly. First, I don't have any arguments in favor of this occurrence because I don't believe it happened. A man's wife and children are not property for him to give away- this specifically goes against what the Buddha taught: "In five ways, young householder, should a wife as the West be ministered to by a husband: (i) by being courteous to her, (ii) by not despising her, (iii) by being faithful to her, (iv) by handing over authority to her, (v) by providing her with adornments. "The wife thus ministered to as the West by her husband shows her compassion to her husband in five ways: (i) she performs her duties well, (ii) she is hospitable to relations and attendants10 (iii) she is faithful, (iv) she protects what he brings, (v) she is skilled and industrious in discharging her duties. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html#to-spouse This sure doesn't sound like the wife belongs to the husband in the ideal type of marriage, as taught by the Buddha. The Buddha saw the ideal marriage as an equal partnership. This is the Dhamma! It doesn't change in the case of one about to become a Buddha; the Dhamma is universal and applies to all and in all times. This is what the Buddha taught in regards to the parent/child relationship: "In five ways, young householder, a child should minister to his parents as the East: (i) Having supported me I shall support them, (ii) I shall do their duties, (iii) I shall keep the family tradition, (iv) I shall make myself worthy of my inheritance, (v) furthermore I shall offer alms in honor of my departed relatives.9 "In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion: (i) they restrain them from evil, (ii) they encourage them to do good, (iii) they train them for a profession, (iv) they arrange a suitable marriage, (v) at the proper time they hand over their inheritance to them. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.31.0.nara.html#to-spouse These four winning ways make the world go round, As the linchpin in a moving car. If these in the world exist not, Neither mother nor father will receive, Respect and honor from their children. Since these four winning ways The wise appraise in every way, To eminence they attain, And praise they rightly gain. Notice the line, "The wise appraise in every way"; there isn't an exception to this teaching by the Buddha. Giving one's wife and children away as dana is unethical and hurtful and would result in a very unfavourable rebirth. Metta, James #69661 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 3, no 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/17/07 10:30:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > you may not like it either. Lolol ;-)) > Nina. > =================== Well, if I don't it that'll be my problem, not yours or anyone else's! ;-) But, you know, after a while, I find it just plain tiring to hang onto opinions about what is what. My opinions plus the price of theatre admission will, together, do no more than get me into a theatre! LOL! With metta, Howard #69662 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Matheesha) - In a message dated 3/17/07 10:53:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and Matheesha, (* hello Phil), > The first scenario is fine, except that contact, phassa is not > physical contact, but a cetasika that assists the citta to clearly > know the object. ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, I know. In the Abhidhamma it is a cetasika. In the suttas it is the coming together of sense object, sense door, and sense consciousness. I think they really come down to pretty much the same thing: The operation of coordinating that co-occurrence. ------------------------------------ With metta, Howard #69663 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:29 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Thanks James (and Andrew), I thought Andrew raised some good points in #69404 but didn't answer because I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but ... so the story goes. Now, I'd add that adoption is a form of giving away children & also that there are still (sub)cultural groups in this country/USA that treat "giving" their wife/girl-friend away as an honorable thing. Mom doesn't like to think about our Buddha (to be) "deserting his wife and son". I haven't brought up Vessantara (...yet?). Anyway, just a section from The All Embracing Net of Views for thought: << He gives his own children as a gift in order that he might adopt all beings as his children by granting them a noble birth. He gives his wives as a gift in order that he might become master over the entire world. <...little snip...> the gift of his ears, nose, etc., in order to obtain the spiritual faculties of faith, etc.; the gift of his eyes in order to obtain the universal eye; the gift of his flesh and blood with the thought: "May my body be the means of life for all the world! May it bring welfare and happiness to all beings at all times, even on occasions of merely seeing, hearing, recollecting, or ministering to me!" And he gives the gift of his head in order to become supreme in all the world. <...large snip...> In practicing the perfection of giving the Great Being should apply the perception of impermanence to life and possessions. He should consider them as shared in common with many, and should constantly and continuously arouse great compassion toward beings. Just as, when a house is blazing, the owner removes all his property of essential value and himself as well without leaving anything important behind, so does the Great Man invariably give, without discrimination and without concern. >> peace, connie #69664 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana TGrand458@... Hi Sobhana I think all of us in this group ponder these questions to some degree or another. I also think that understanding the "mechanics" of nature to the best extent possible is very useful. I don't expect to fully understand kamma but I hope to understand the basic principles of kamma enough to more or less resolve that aspect of the Buddha's teaching and put it behind me. Its the activities that occur here and now that I can more fully know that are of more importance to me. Don't worry about the cross-posting. Doesn't bother me at all. Best Wishes, TG #69665 From: Sobhana Date: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello TG, You’ve been helpful with your replies. Thank you. The reminder that I need to give myself :- have faith in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and not create doubts (vicikiccha) and confuse everyone! It is akusala kamma to have wrong view. I believe Buddha is omniscient, all-knowing, teacher of devas and men. I just need to understand “anatta”. I cannot understand why anatta meant ‘no control’, ‘cannot decide’ and ‘no free-will’. If anatta were to mean that, then we would not feel responsible for the things we do, say or think. If there is no control, I would not be responsible for my actions because I would say, “It was due to my conditions that’s why I did those bad things, it feels like an excuse to give myself.” If there is totally “no control” and “no choice”, then I should not regret my past actions because it has been conditioned that way? I think this type of thinking is wrong, I don’t want to think of anatta as that way. When I was young I was very rude to my mother and father, I regret and feel remorse and sad, and I know my kamma will punish me severely for it. I need to feel responsible for my past actions no matter how bad they were. I cannot blame it all on conditions. Buddha said: Kammassakomhi kamma-daayaado kamma-yoni kamma-bandhu kamma-pa.tisara.no. I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and live dependent on my actions. Ya.m kamma.m karissaami kalyaa.na.m vaa paapaka.m vaa tassa daayaado bhavissaami. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. For now, I’m hoping to practise: avoiding evil, doing good and purifying the mind. Warm regards, Sobhana #69666 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana ken_aitch Hi Sobhana, ------------- S: > I believe Buddha is omniscient, all-knowing, teacher of devas and men. I just need to understand "anatta". I cannot understand why anatta meant `no control', `cannot decide' and `no free-will'. If anatta were to mean that, then we would not feel responsible for the things we do, say or think. If there is no control, I would not be responsible for my actions because I would say, "It was due to my conditions that's why I did those bad things, it feels like an excuse to give myself." If there is totally "no control" and "no choice", then I should not regret my past actions because it has been conditioned that way? I think this type of thinking is wrong, I don't want to think of anatta as that way. ------------- Whether we like it or not, anatta does mean there is no self to control the world, no self to decide which realities will arise, and no self to possess free will. There are only fleeting, impersonal conditioned namas and rupas. All else is imaginary. ---------------------- S: > When I was young I was very rude to my mother and father, I regret and feel remorse and sad, and I know my kamma will punish me severely for it. I need to feel responsible for my past actions no matter how bad they were. I cannot blame it all on conditions. ----------------------- We uninstructed worldlings might like to believe in a self that does those things. It is just too humbling to believe there is no self - only conditioned namas and rupas. Nevertheless, that is what the Buddha taught. ------------------------------ S: > Buddha said: Kammassakomhi kamma-daayaado kamma-yoni kamma-bandhu kamma- pa.tisara.no. I am the owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and live dependent on my actions. Ya.m kamma.m karissaami kalyaa.na.m vaa paapaka.m vaa tassa daayaado bhavissaami. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. ------------------------------- The word `I' appears many times in the texts, but we can't use that as evidence of self. It is just a conventional designation for the five khandhas - conditioned namas and rupas. -------------------------------- S: > For now, I'm hoping to practise: avoiding evil, doing good and purifying the mind. --------------------------------- Good luck with it. I hope you will agree that sila dana and bhavana are dhammas (cittas accompanied by cetasikas). They arise purely by conditions – totally independent of a self of any kind. Ken H #69667 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:33 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha buddhatrue Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Thanks James (and Andrew), > > I thought Andrew raised some good points in #69404 but didn't answer > because I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion, but ... so the > story goes. Now, I'd add that adoption is a form of giving away children James: Doesn't relate to this Jataka Tale. Adoption as performed by society has certain moral guidelines, and this Jataka Tale wouldn't meet the specifications. > & also that there are still (sub)cultural groups in this country/USA that > treat "giving" their wife/girl-friend away as an honorable thing. James: That could be, but that also doesn't relate. Are those Buddhist groups of people? They must have different beliefs. The Buddha specifically taught how a husband should treat his wife, and giving her away into slavery isn't condoned by the Buddha. > > Mom doesn't like to think about our Buddha (to be) "deserting his wife and > son". I haven't brought up Vessantara (...yet?). James: This is also not related to the Jataka Tale. > > Anyway, just a section from The All Embracing Net of Views for thought: > << He gives his own children as a gift in order that he might adopt all > beings as his children by granting them a noble birth. James: Where did this quote come from?? This isn't from a sutta the Buddha taught, as far as I know, and it isn't from The All Embracing Net of Views, The Bramajala Sutta. > > peace, > connie > Metta, James #69668 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:06 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (1) sarahprocter... Hi Connie & Scott, Rather behind on this one....but lots of action-packed detail in #67496 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: <...> > connie: "The commentary on Therikaa's (or Sturdy's) process begins > with Buddha Ko.naagamana and goes on thru her having having died an > ordinary human after 20-thousand years of fulfilling the bhikkhunii > moral practice in Kassapa's dispensation. In her last life, she'd > (re?)gained faith and became a lay follower..." > >Scott: My vote goes to 'regained'. I think that its total proof that kusala > accumulates and that the right conditions are necessary for it to > arise and that this occurs in each successive lifetime. .... Sarah: I think I'd probably vote for the 'gained' without the 're-'! Why? Because (as I understand) this refers to gaining the faith, 'sturdy', of a sotapanna which only occurred in her last life. Later, as we know, on burning the curry, she became an anagami. .... > c: "I think this stresses that it's not just a straight-forward > path/process at least for an ordinary being; ditto, the commentary on > her 'name' meaning, << 'O you, who have arrived at a firm state of > being in the firm teaching,' 'O you, possessed of the firm states of > virtuous conduct, etc.' >>" > > Perhaps this 'arrived at' is the pithy short-hand for aeons of > non-linear process, this 'possessed of' for the accumulated kusala. .... Sarah: I think this 'firm state of being in the firm teaching' was only arrived at when she heard the teachings in her last life. Once it is a 'firm' realisation at sotapanna, it is 'straight-forward' in the sense of assured destiny and so on. The virtue may have been 'fulfilled' in her previous lives (as it may be for us now), but just for those lifetimes, don't you think? .... > c: "...it is to be understood that their complete calming is also > spoken of: (1) previously through the attainment of calming by the > substitution of opposites, (2) at the moment of calm and insight > through discarding, (3) at the moment of the path through cutting off, > (4) at the moment of fruition through calming. Therefore, the gaining > of the four types of abandoning is to be understood. .... Sarah: Thank you both for all the further good detail and comments. Metta, Sarah ======== #69669 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana sarahprocter... Hi Sobhana, --- shennieca wrote: > Buddha said he taught one thing and one thing only: Suffering and the > way out of suffering. :) I think I should be focusing my study to the > 8fold path instead of asking funny questions! :D .... Sarah: :D Just to say that I think your 'funny questions' are excellent and not funny at all! I'm going away soon and behind with some other replies, but I'd just like to welcome you to DSG and to say that I'm following your good discussions with TG and now KenH with keen interest. The anatta/conditioned dhammas/no control issues lie at the very core of the Buddha's teachings so I really encourage you to persist with your line of questioning until satisfied. I think that one of the difficulties we have with this is that we're so used to thinking in terms of a self who performs kamma, receives the results of kamma and also of other people who lead good/bad lives and so on. As you've been stressing, as we read in the teachings, especially the Abhidhamma, there are only cittas, cetasikas and rupas - all conditioned dhammas. So there is changing kamma all the time and also changing vipaka all the time, no matter how the outward life appears. Appreciating more about such dhammas is definitely the main condition for a deeper understanding of anatta to develop. So it's not fatalistic, though in a sense you're right - nibbana cannot be attained by will or any self, but only by patiently developing the 8fold path. I'll look forward to reading your further discussions and talking more to you later, Sobhana. May I ask where you live? Are you from Sri Lanka originally by any chance, like Matheesha? I only ask because of your obvious familiarity and memory of Pali phrases. Metta, Sarah ======== #69670 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:41 am Subject: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. matheesha333 Hi Nina, Howard, Thank you for your replies. I do appreciate this very much. I feel things are clearer now. I was trying to find labels for my experience in vipassana. with metta Matheesha #69671 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Request for help with Pali pronunciation jonoabb Dear Ven Dhammanando Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Hi Jon, > > >> If anyone has managed to download the sound files referred to be Ven >> Dhammanando in his message to RobK below, I'd be grateful if they >> could send me a copy, as I'm not able to open them. >> > > I too don't know how to download them. You might, however, tell your > friend that there are sound files of Pali c and j, along with a full > phonetic description, on these two Wikipedia pages: > > C > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal_plosive > > J > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palatal_plosive > > If you click on the help button near each sound file you will be > provided with info on the software needed to play them. > Many thanks for the links. I did not find it easy to distinguish between the two samples. As far as I could tell after listening quite a few times, the difference between the voiceless and the voiced could be represented as the difference between a 'j' and a 'dj' sound, where the 'j' is like the Thai 'jor jaan' rather than the English 'j' as in 'jar'. Respectfully Jon #69672 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (19) sarahprocter... Hi James & all, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: Isn't it best to just set a good example and take care of our > own cittas rather than having expectations of others/trying to change > others and so on? > > James: Maybe, but this approach seems to lack compassion for others. .... S: Isn't it more compassionate to show kindness and generosity to others rather than have expectations of others and try to change their behaviour in a way that leads to conflicts as you described? ... > Sarah: Being forgiving or patient with others is a kind of generosity > for example. > > James: I don't think forgiveness and patience fall under the category > of dana- at least as the Buddha taught it. One could be forgiving > and patient, but if he/she is stingy, he/she is going to be reborn in > hell or as a hungry ghost. .... S: I think that dana covers many kinds of generosity. Han and Phil were just discussed the example given of sila, the keeping of the precepts, as a kind of dana. I personally think this is great dana and appreciate being offered this gift every day in preference to diamonds or other material goods. When there's forgiveness, one gives up one's conceit and shows metta and generosity. We read about the giving of 'fearlessness' to others as a kind of dana. When there is forgiveness, there is this gift of letting others live without fear. When there's patience, one accepts the way others behave out of ignorance, without attachment or aversion to it. There is the giving up of one's own wishes at such times and this is a kind of generosity, I think. In one of Nina's letters, just this topic of stinginess and forgiveness arose. She wrote: (Feb22, Vipassana 8, no4) "We may feel displeased about what someone else is doing to us or saying to us. There is a kind of comparing, there is "he" and "me"; we wonder, "How can he do that to me." Then there is conceit, we cling to "our important personality". Conceit hinders generosity and mettå. Can we forgive someone else easily? Forgiving is a kind of generosity, dåna. It is "abhaya-dåna", the wish that someone else is free from harm. We should more often consider the benefit of forgiving, it helps us to have less conceit." ... > Sarah: When we mind about others lack of generosity or lack of 'good' > of any kind, it's clear that the problem is not with the 'others' at > such times! > > James: Well, I catch your drift and I think this is highly > hypocritical. Now you are judging others for judging others! LOL! .... S: I don't think so. This is what we learn from the Buddha's teachings - i.e that all the problems, conflicts and difficulties we face come back to our own accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha. It's good that you'd like to help and encourage your friends to appreciate the value of generosity and other wholesome states. When we mind or become distressed at their lack of interest or obvious inclinations for such, it's the attachment that is the problem, however. It's the same for all of us when we'd like our family members or friends to have more interest in the Dhamma and so on. When there's real metta or kindness, we help anyone with a real interest, not just those we care a lot about. ... > Sarah, you don't know my mind states to make any such generalization > about me. I am concerned about those close to me, that's all. ... S: I agree, we can only know for ourselves what the states of mind are. You had mentioned conflicts and difficulties with regard to this issue and I understood this to mean that attachments and expectations were involved, as well as the obvious care and kindness you indicated too. .... <...> > "And how is one an individual who practices for his own benefit and > for that of others? There is the case where a certain individual > himself abstains from the taking of life and encourages others in > undertaking abstinence from the taking of life. He himself abstains > from stealing and encourages others in undertaking abstinence from > stealing. He himself abstains from sexual misconduct and encourages > others in undertaking abstinence from sexual misconduct. He himself > abstains from lying and encourages others in undertaking abstinence > from lying. He himself abstains from intoxicants that cause > heedlessness and encourages others in undertaking abstinence from > intoxicants that cause heedlessness. Such is the individual who > practices for his own benefit and for that of others. > ********* > "'Whatever there may be in our family that can be given away, all > that will be shared unstintingly with virtuous ones who are of > admirable character.' That's how you should train yourselves." > > Then, having enjoined his friends & colleagues, his relatives & > kinsmen, to place confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha; having > exhorted them to undertake generosity, Citta the householder passed > away. ... S: Yes, this is a very good sutta. Let's appreciate the value of developing generosity, virtue and all that's worthy. In addition, let's encourage those around us when we have the opportunity and when they have the inclination to listen......without attachment or expectations on our part! Aren't we also encouraged by the Buddha to reflect on the good qualities of those around us rather than the bad qualities and to hold up a mirror to our own defilements? Thanks again for the good question and further reflections, James. Best wishes to your friends too - may they be able to appreciate your example and confidence in generosity. Metta, Sarah =========== #69673 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana jonoabb Hi Sobhana Welcome to the list from me. shennieca wrote: > Hello TG, all, > > >> TG: Nibbana comes when the wholesome/skilful states taught by the >> Buddha are implemented to the extent necessary to end >> attachment/ignorance. It is the influence of the Buddha and the >> efforts of the "preservers of the tipitaka" that are the conditions >> that make this possible. These conditions can allow "you" (i.e., >> other conditions) to choose wisely. >> > > Sobhana: Can we also say Nibbana comes to us randomly on its own > accord. For example, say the simile of the sutta/tipitaka is like the > sunlight and we are the plants, if we get fertilized well, watered > well, have good seeds from past lives, we would grow well and sprout > flowers (e.g. reach Nibbana)? And how much water, sunlight, > fertilizer we get are also conditioned factors and not-decided by us. > Nibbana becomes a waiting game, doesn't it? > > >> TG: Making a wise effort by closely paying attention to conditions >> is a condition and a possibility. Because "you" have pursued a path >> looking for truth or relief from suffering, the conditions have >> become available to search and make efforts in this direction. >> There may be 100 people who have the same "potential kamma" for >> seeking the Buddha's teaching that you and I have. But maybe only 5 >> out of 100 ever come across the teaching due to conditions. But >> sooner or later, suffering is the common denominator that will drive >> a quest for relief from that suffering and will drive folks in this >> direction. >> > > Sobhana: I also believe that everyone will walk the Buddhist path one > day too. Maybe in the end, we will all be conditioned to be a > Buddhist and attain Nibbana too? > Interesting questions you've been asking, which I think TG has responded to very well (although I've not read the latest exchanges yet). The main theme of your earlier posts seemed to be the origination of the differences between individual beings. On this point I think all that can be said is that (a) it was not spoken about by the Buddha, and that therefore (b) it is not something that needs to be known in order to develop understanding and gain enlightenment. As regards (a), I recall reading that the Buddha said that the beginning of samsara was not discernible, no matter how far back one went. So any attempted explanation would have to be speculation. There are plenty of things that do need to be known, but this apparently is not one of them ;-)) Jon #69674 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:45 am Subject: The Heavens & the Hells, Past Lives, Thinking, TODAY! & World-Wide Sangha. bhikkhu5 Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, Many thanks for the replies. New Questions: 1: How is Hell like? 2: How is Heaven like? 3: Can anyone remember their past life? Many thanks for sharing the knowledge, Friend Rommel. ----------------------------------------------------------- New Answers: Answer 1: There are 136 different Hells. No pleasure is ever experienced in any of them. In the worst AvÄ«ci Hell only excessive pain is felt without any break: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/ay/aviici.htm Buddha described these hells in Detail in these two speeches: The Fool and the Wise: Majjhima Nikaya 129 The Divine Messengers: Majjhima Nikaya 130 See also: Dhammapada verses 306-319 chapter XXII: Hell = Niraya http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/KN/Dhammapada.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/n/niraya.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/n_r/niraya.htm Answer 2: There are several heavens of the sensual realm & also several divine fine (dark) matter dimensions: see: The Thirty-one Planes of Existence: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/index.html Answer 3: Only quite pure and well trained beings can remember their past lives: see: The 4th suprahuman knowledge: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/a/abhinna.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/html/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html#recollection http://www.accesstoinsight.org/html/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html#recollection Bhikkhu Samahita _________________________________________ A Friend Rocky Frisco wrote: The Greatest of all of Truths are this 4 Noble Truths. These are the Eternal Truths that makes you all free. When the mind is still, you may begin to know The Real Truth. There is no self or mine in any of these Truths: All is void of Ego. You and the World are not a fully separable entities! The greatest profits, value, gain & Happiness is Awakening. Knowing The Noble Truths sets free from being a slave of mind! ----------------------------------------------------------- Sadhu: Well spoken friend rocky. Bhikkhu Samahita _________________________________________ Thinking means observing how things are, as such it is closely related to the sense of sight. Hannele Tervola, Finland in Europe ----------------------------------------------------------- Thinking can indeed also be quite deluded! Most is so! Knowing & seeing things as they really are is the goal! This means: Not thinking as if impermanent things are lasting! Not thinking as if painful things are happiness! Not thinking as if impersonal things are self! Bhikkhu Samahita , Ceylon in Asia _________________________________________ Bhante, One does not what is one's Kammic load from prior universes. How can one purify one's negative Kammas that one knows about as well as the ones one doesn't know about? Thanks - Taru ----------------------------------------------------------- Basically by: 1: STOPPING DOING EVIL NOW! Which means keeping The 5 precious precepts (pañca-sila): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/pancasila.html 2: BEGIN DOING GOOD NOW! Which means Developing the 10 Mental Perfections (paramitas) http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/The_10_mental_perfections_(parami)_in_three_le\ vels.htm Step 1 will prevent further accumulation of bad kamma. Step 2 will purify and refine mind so effects of prior kamma is reduced. Bhikkhu Samahita _________________________________________ I am a student of Theravada Buddhism and I feel I am ready to start participating in a Buddhist community, but there are no Theravada Sangha near me. It seems I have two options: 1) Have no Sangha (besides this one on the internet) 2) Pick a Sangha where comfortable & the teachings are OK. If I pick two which would you recommend? In my area we have Zen, Pure Land, and Tibetan communities. Kevin, Indianapolis, USA. ----------------------------------------------------------- 1: Stay put here among the really good friends. 2: Local Indiana Theravadin Sangha may be found at: Address: 5712 Webster Street, Fort Wayne IN 46807 Ven. Bulathshinhala Chandana Thero IN Tradition: Theravada Affiliation: Sinhalese Buddhist (Sri Lanka) Phone: (260) 744-1151 Email: bulathshinhala@... Teachers: Ven. Thalangama Devananda Thero, Contact: Ven. Chandana Thero For a Sangha in any worldwide location see: World Buddhist Directory: http://www.buddhanet.net/wbd Bhikkhu Samahita _________________________________________ Dear Bhikkhu Samahita, To my personal conviction this is rubbish. Friend Hinze ----------------------------------------------------------- Own 'personal' conviction is often quite unreliable! It is the worst evaluator of what is really real & god! Better check it out by observation & re-examination again once more before jumping into any stale conclusions! Be careful, cool, and clear! Bhikkhu Samahita Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #69675 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (20) jonoabb Hi Han Enjoying your 'Dana Corner' very much. Many thanks for the interesting reading. han tun wrote: > ... > In the Anguttara Nikaya the Buddha describes, with > sacrificial terminology, three types of fires that > should be tended with care and honor (A.iv,44). They > are ahuneyyaggi, gahapataggi and dakkhineyyaggi. The > Buddha explained that ahuneyyaggi means one's parents, > and they should be honored and cared for. Gahapataggi > means one's wife and children, employees and > dependents. Dakkineyyaggi represents religious persons > who have either attained the goal of arahantship or > have embarked on a course of training for the > elimination of negative mental traits. > I have a question, please. I think I recognise the Pali terms 'ahuneyyo' and 'dakkhineyyo' from the recollection of the virtues of the Sangha. Is the author saying that these terms were also part of the lexicon of sacrificial practices? Do we know what their significance was in that context? Grateful for any thoughts you may have. Jon PS I prefer the style of the present author (Lily de Silva) to that of the previous one, as she seems to base herself more directly on the texts (and she also gives references). #69676 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:17 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing, 9. 'Now the life of king Vessantara, O king, was a good thing shared in by many--just as meats when cooked are shared in by many, or as a tree covered with fruit is shared in by many flocks of birds. And why so? Because he had said to himself: "Thus acting may I attain to Buddhahood." As a man in need, O king, who is wandering about in his search after wealth, will have to pass along goat-tracks, and through jungles full of stakes and sticks, and doing merchandise by sea and land, will devote his actions, words, and thoughts to the attainment of wealth--just so, O king, did Vessantara, the king of givers, who was longing for the treasure of Buddhahood, for the attainment of the insight of the Omniscient Ones, by offering up to anyone who begged of him his property and his corn, his slave girls and his slaves, his riding animals and carriages, all that he possessed, his wife and children and himself, seek after the Supreme Enlightenment. Just, O king, as an official who is anxious for the seal, and for the office of the custody thereof [281], will exert himself to the attainment of the seal by sacrificing everything in his house--property and corn, gold and silver, everything--just so, O king, did Vessantara, the king of givers, by giving away all that he had, inside his house and out, by giving even his life for others, seek after the Supreme Enlightenment. === peace, connie #69677 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:17 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (46) nichiconn Dear Friends, part two of six, Bhaddaa: Tato bhaddaa cintesi- "na sakkaa mayaa iminaa niyaamena geha.m gantu.m, itova gantvaa eka.m pabbajja.m pabbajissaamii"ti niga.n.thaaraama.m gantvaa niga.n.the pabbajja.m yaaci. Atha na.m te aaha.msu- "kena niyaamena pabbajjaa hotuu"ti? "Ya.m tumhaaka.m pabbajjaaya uttama.m, tadeva karothaa"ti. Then Bhaddaa thought, "I cannot go home like this, so I shall go away from here. I shall go forth in a unique going forth." And going to the park of the Jains, she asked the Jains for the going forth. Then they said to her, "What grade should the going forth be?" She replied, "Whatever is the highest going forth for you, perform that." Te "saadhuu"ti tassaa taala.t.thinaa kese lu~ncitvaa pabbaajesu.m. Puna kesaa va.d.dhantaa ku.n.dalaava.t.taa hutvaa va.d.dhesu.m. Tato pa.t.thaaya saa ku.n.dalakesaati naama jaataa. Saa tattha uggahetabba.m samaya.m vaadamagga~nca uggahetvaa "ettaka.m naama ime jaananti, ito uttari viseso natthii"ti ~natvaa They said, "Very well," and pulled out her hair with a palm kernel. After that, when her hair grew back, it grew back curly. From that time on she came to be called Ku.n.dalakesaa ["Curlylocks"]. She studied there, learning their doctrine and course of instruction. Then she realized, "These people know just this much indeed. Beyond that there is no distinction." tato apakkamitvaa yattha yattha pa.n.ditaa atthi, tattha tattha gantvaa tesa.m jaananasippa.m uggahetvaa attanaa saddhi.m kathetu.m samattha.m adisvaa ya.m ya.m gaama.m vaa nigama.m vaa pavisati, tassa dvaare vaalukaaraasi.m katvaa tattha jambusaakha.m .thapetvaa "yo mama vaada.m aaropetu.m sakkoti, so ima.m saakha.m maddatuu"ti samiipe .thitadaarakaana.m sa~n~na.m datvaa vasana.t.thaana.m gacchati. Sattaahampi jambusaakhaaya tatheva .thitaaya ta.m gahetvaa pakkamati. Then she went away, and going to wherever there were wise men, she learned their branch of knowledge. She did not see anyone capable of debating with her, so at whatever village or town she entered, she made a heap of sand at the gate and placed a branch of a rose-apple tree in it. And she made a sign to the boys standing nearby, saying, "If anyone is able to enter into debate with me, let him trample down this branch," and then went to her dwelling place. If the rose-apple tree branch was still standing there after seven days, she took it and went away. Tena ca samayena amhaaka.m bhagavaa loke uppajjitvaa pavattitavaradhammacakko anupubbena saavatthi.m upanissaaya jetavane viharati. Ku.n.dalakesaapi vuttanayena gaamanigamaraajadhaaniisu vicarantii saavatthi.m patvaa nagaradvaare vaalukaaraasimhi jambusaakha.m .thapetvaa daarakaana.m sa~n~na.m datvaa saavatthi.m paavisi. And at that time, our Blessed One had arisen in the world. Having set the excellent wheel of the Doctrine in motion, in due course he lived in the Jeta Grove near Saavatthi. And Ku.n.dalakesaa, wandering from town to village to royal capital in the way described above, arrived at Saavatthi. She set up her rose-apple tree branch in a heap of sand at the city gate, made a sign to the boys, and entered Saavatthi. Athaayasmaa dhammasenaapati ekakova nagara.m pavisanto ta.m saakha.m disvaa ta.m dametukaamo daarake pucchi- "kasmaaya.m saakhaa eva.m .thapitaa"ti? Daarakaa tamattha.m aarocesu.m. Thero "yadi eva.m ima.m saakha.m maddathaa"ti aaha. Daarakaa ta.m maddi.msu. Then the venerable General of the Doctrine [Saariputta], entering the city alone, saw that branch. Wanting to tame her, he asked the boys, "Why is this branch set up here like this?" They explained the meaning to him. The thera told them, "In that case, trample the branch." And the boys trampled it down. Ku.n.dalakesaa katabhattakiccaa nagarato nikkhamantii ta.m saakha.m maddita.m disvaa "kenida.m madditan"ti pucchitvaa therena maddaapitabhaava.m ~natvaa "apakkhiko vaado na sobhatii"ti saavatthi.m pavisitvaa viithito viithi.m vicarantii "passeyyaatha sama.nehi sakyaputtiyehi saddhi.m mayha.m vaadan"ti Ku.n.dalakesaa had her meal and came out of the town. Seeing the branch trampled down, she asked, "Who trampled this down?" On learning the thera had caused it to be trampled down and thinking, "A debate without an opposing party does not shine," she entered Saavatthi and wandered from street to street. Shouting, "Would you like to see a debate between me and the recluse belonging to the son of the Sakyans?" ugghosetvaa mahaajanaparivutaa a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule nisinna.m dhammasenaapati.m upasa"nkamitvaa pa.tisanthaara.m katvaa ekamanta.m .thitaa "ki.m tumhehi mama jambusaakhaa maddaapitaa"ti pucchi. "Aama, mayaa maddaapitaa"ti. "Eva.m sante tumhehi saddhi.m mayha.m vaado hotuu"ti. "Hotu, bhadde"ti. Surrounded by a great number of people, she went up to the General of the Doctrine, who was seated at the foot of a certain tree, and exchanged friendly greetings. Standing to one side, she asked, "Did you have my stick trampled down?" "Yes," he said, "I had it trampled down." "That being so, let there be a debate between you and me." "So be it, madam." "Kassa pucchaa, kassa vissajjanaa"ti? "Pucchaa naama amhaaka.m pattaa, tva.m ya.m attano jaananaka.m pucchaa"ti. Saa sabbameva attano jaananaka.m vaada.m pucchi. Thero ta.m sabba.m vissajjesi. Saa upari pucchitabba.m ajaanantii tu.nhii ahosi. "Whose questions, whose answers [shall we use]?" she asked. "Indeed, all our questions are answered," he said. "What questions are you expert in yourself?" She asked about all the doctrine she was expert in herself. The thera answered all [her questions]. Not knowing anything further to ask, she was silent. === to be continued, connie #69678 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and James and Andrew) - In a message dated 3/17/07 10:29:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: > Anyway, just a section from The All Embracing Net of Views for thought: > < beings as his children by granting them a noble birth. He gives his wives > as a gift in order that he might become master over the entire world. > <...little snip...> the gift of his ears, nose, etc., in order to obtain > the spiritual faculties of faith, etc.; the gift of his eyes in order to > obtain the universal eye; the gift of his flesh and blood with the > thought: "May my body be the means of life for all the world! May it bring > welfare and happiness to all beings at all times, even on occasions of > merely seeing, hearing, recollecting, or ministering to me!" And he gives > the gift of his head in order to become supreme in all the world. > <...large snip...> In practicing the perfection of giving the Great Being > should apply the perception of impermanence to life and possessions. He > should consider them as shared in common with many, and should constantly > and continuously arouse great compassion toward beings. Just as, when a > house is blazing, the owner removes all his property of essential value > and himself as well without leaving anything important behind, so does the > Great Man invariably give, without discrimination and without concern. >> ==================== What is being quoted? And who is being quoted? (I know there is a sutta with title along the lines of All Emracing Net of Views.) The reason I ask pertains to one line: "He gives his wives as a gift in order that he might become master over the entire world." By perfect analogy between this and the rest, there is no doubt that the trade-off indicated here is the gaining of mastery over the entire world as replacement for mastery over one's wives. Now, such a view clearly describes a wife as property, as chattel, as a slave to be controlled and dispensed with as will. IMO, this is more than a cultural curiosity, but an instance of slave-holding immorality. An ordinary worldling in the Indian culture circa 500 BCE might be readily excused for that, but not an arahant. And so, I am curious as to the source of this quote. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #69679 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:43 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Hi James, > Anyway, just a section from The All Embracing Net of Views for thought: > << He gives his own children as a gift in order that he might adopt all > beings as his children by granting them a noble birth. James: Where did this quote come from?? This isn't from a sutta the Buddha taught, as far as I know, and it isn't from The All Embracing Net of Views, The Bramajala Sutta. C: pp.296-7 of the ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's book, the section called A Treatise on the Paaramiis. peace, c. #69680 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:07 am Subject: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi, Ken & Sobhana - Ken, you have correctly written "Whether we like it or not, anatta does mean there is no self to control the world, no self to decide which realities will arise, and no self to possess free will. There are only fleeting, impersonal conditioned namas and rupas. All else is imaginary." A bit more might be usefully said, though, I think: The "fleeting, impersonal conditioned namas and rupas" - all or some of them - are what we take to be self. The notion of "personal self" is a broad one, but it includes in part a core that is a self-existent agent, a doer, thinker, feeler, and controller. It is true there is no so such thing. However, all that we *take* for self is real, though utterly transient, conditioned, without own being, and impersonal. Included there are "our" emotions, desires, ignorance, wisdom, and will. When cetana (intention, impulse, or will) based in wisdom and the divine abidings occurs, good deeds arise that lead to good in the world, and the intention and resulting actions, the kamma, lead to auspicious future developments within the "same" stream of dhammas, but when cetana is based in ignorance and craving, the results are the opposite. In short, moral responsibility and kammic debt is real, but it does not require a "self" for justification of its existence. With metta, Howard #69681 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Paramattha and conventional rjkjp1 Dear Ken Sorry, I seem to be busier than I expected. I think you are limiting the assistance teh texts can give you by not taking into account the conventional as well as ultimate aspects. Consider the Dhammapada atthakatha and the stories of beings who go to hell or heaven based on deeds. Or the Vinaya where a monk is parijika if he recommends an abortion- and his advice is taken. Because it doesn't matter how legal it might be, it is killing. It is true that an abortion doctor might not know when or if the cittas are akusala kamma patha. They might be very brief - but they must be there - and they are dangerous. So.. considering the conventional teachings should help to clarify the paramattha , and vv. Robert > ------------------------------------ > KEN: Thanks for that explanation. It helps, but I am still a bit out of > step with you (and possibly some other KS students) on this issue. My > disillusionment with concepts sees me relatively unmoved by stories > of bombardiers, soldiers, abortionists, and so on. If (IF) there > are any rules at all as to what is right and what is wrong in > conventional reality I would say, "If it's legal, it's OK." > > There is no sure way of knowing which conventional practice will be > conducive to wholesome cittas and which conducive to unwholesome > cittas. Each of has to make his or her own decisions as to how we > will spend our daily lives. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think K > Sujin's only advice in this regard is, "Don't copy!" > > Ken H > #69682 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha upasaka_howard Hi, Connie (and James) - In a message dated 3/18/07 7:46:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: > C: pp.296-7 of the ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's book, the section called A > Treatise on the Paaramiis. > ===================== As Ricky Ricardo might say, "I think he's got some splainin' to do!" ;-)) With metta, Howard #69683 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (20) hantun1 Dear Jon, The author had referred to AN 7.47 Dutiya Aggi sutta. I do not have English translation of the sutta. The Buddha said that by animal sacrifice a person is establishing three akusala weapons. Before actual killing, by thinking about the animal sacrifice he is establishing mano-sattham (sattha = weapon). When he asks someone to kill he is establishing vaci-sattham. If he himself kills the animals he is establishing kaaya-sattham. So one should not practice animal sacrifice. Next, one should also not build up three fires, namely raagaggi (lust fire), dosaggi (hatred fire), and mohaggi (delusion fire). But one should tend with care and honor three types of fires, namely aahuneyyaggi, gahapataggi and dakkhineyyaggi. The explanation of these three Pali words is already given. Here, I would not consider the three Pali words (aahuneyyaggi, gahapataggi and dakkhineyyaggi) as “sacrificial terminology.” The word “fire” is used in a positive and wholesome analogy. They do not denote sacrificial practices like animal sacrifice. They are the wholesome ‘fires’ that are to be tended with care and honor. Please let me know if my explanation is not clear. Respectfully, Han --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi Han > > I have a question, please. I think I recognise the Pali terms > 'ahuneyyo' and 'dakkhineyyo' from the recollection of the virtues of the > Sangha. Is the author saying that these terms were also part of the > lexicon of sacrificial practices? Do we know what their significance > was in that context? > > Grateful for any thoughts you may have. #69684 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:22 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 10, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, (quote from Kh Sujin continued) Whenever we experience a pleasant object through the eyes we continue to search food for dukkha. We search as it were for dukkha in the cycle of birth and death. Whenever there is hearing and we are attached to sound we are already searching for dukkha. Attachment is the cause of dukkha in the cycle. We never stop searching for dukkha. Through the nose we smell fragrant odours, the scent of flowers, of perfums, and then we keep on searching for dukkha all around, everywhere. We search for dukkha when we taste flavour through the tongue, or when we experience tangible object through the bodysense. When we think of different subjects don't we search for dukkha ? We are searching for dukkha everywhere from morning until night. If we don't realize this we cannot be freed from the cycle of birth and death. Before defilements can be eradicated, before detachment, alobha, can arise and become powerful, so that selfishness can be given up, we should know the characteristic of the cause of dukkha, the food for dukkha. This is lobha, attachment, which searches all around. Lobha is the cause of dukkha whereas alobha, detachment, is the cause of happiness. When one has less attachment to the objects which appear through the six doors is there not less searching for dukkha? The next life will be again like this life and the cycle will be very long if paññå does not know the characteristics of realities as they are. Paññå should be developed to the degree that it realizes the four noble Truths and enlightenment is attained. In the next life there will be happiness and sorrow, and this depends on kamma. If one has right understanding about kamma and one has determination for kusala one will not be negligent.” These were Khun Sujin's words. The sutta on the two old bråhmins is followed by another sutta which is partly similar. The Buddha said to the two old bråhmins that the world is all ablaze with old age, sickness and death. We then read that he spoke the following verse: When a house is burning, goods removed therefrom, Not which are burned, will be of use to him who removes them. So the world is burned By old age and death. Then save yourself by giving. What is given is well saved. The self-restraint of body, speech and mind In this life practised, meritorious deeds, These make for happiness when one has died. ******* Nina. #69685 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Hi Howard, First of all, what I appreciate is that you do not try to win a point in a debate. And you also say quite often: I may be wrong and you are openminded. But since we are not arahats there is always the danger of conceit slipping in, we all have that. The ancient commentaries were closer to the Buddha's time than we. It takes some humility to be openminded to what they state. The oral tradition by which the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries were handed down was quite reliable. We can compare this with the Jewish oral tradition. As you know, only morally impeccable people were allowed to recite the texts and they were in a large group of people who could check each other. The same for those who recited at the Great Councils. We should see through the conventional matters that pertained to the olden times, such as biology and science, and consider what they explained about paramattha dhammas. That is the essence of their message. We can check that with the Tipitaka and our own experience. Then we shall not be distracted by so called primitive science. And this goes for what we read about eyesense, earsense and all the other rupas. Nina. Op 18-mrt-2007, om 1:55 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But, you know, after a while, I find it just plain tiring to hang onto > opinions about what is what. My opinions plus the price of theatre > admission > will, together, do no more than get me into a theatre! LOL! #69686 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:47 am Subject: Citta is dark. scottduncan2 Dear All, I found this portion of a discussion recently added to the list to be quite interesting... Kh. Sujin (2005-03-29A): "If we talk about a characteristic of a reality which is so real right now because there is seeing. We don't have to call it seeing but it now sees. So that which sees is real so its a reality which doesn't have shape - no shape, no form at all. Whenever it arises it has to experience an object. And when it experiences the object through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body then we know the object of the citta which experienced it. For example, right now visible object is appearing but if there is no citta, even [if] there is visible object the visible object cannot appear. So we can see that that which can experience an object is what we call vi~n~naana or citta or we don't have to call it anything it we know that the characteristic is not self because it arises and it falls away and that is it...Citta is that faculty that just experiences the object that's all. It cannot like, it cannot dislike, it cannot remember, it cannot be wholesome or unwholesome...if we understand the characteristic of citta which is different from cetasika...without theoretical knowledge can we know the difference between citta and cetasika - without intellectual understanding...We don't talk about self, we don't talk about any name, but we just talk about that characteristic which can experience an object only. Like now, this cannot experience anything - the table - or hardness cannot experience anything but what is seeing right now? What is that reality which is seeing or which sees visible object right now? There must be that reality otherwise visible object cannot appear, sound cannot appear, the story or any concept cannot appear since there is that characteristic which can experience an object. And it is so dark because there is no shape, no form at all, right? Visible object is not dark, depending on the light, but that which experiences it is dark..." Sincerely, Scott. #69687 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:19 am Subject: Rupas Ch 3, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, The eyesense is extremely small, “no bigger in size than the head of a louse”, but it seems that the whole wide world comes to us through the eye. All that is visible is experienced through the eyesense, but when we believe that we see the world there is thinking of a concept, not the experience of visible object. However, our thinking is conditioned by seeing and by all the other sense-impressions. The eye is compared to an ocean, because it cannot be filled, it is unsatiable. We are attached to the eyesense and we want to go on seeing, it never is enough. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Salåyatana-vagga, Fourth Fifty, Ch 3, § 187, The Ocean): ... The eye of a man, monks, is the ocean. Its impulse is made of objects. Whoso endures that object-made impulse - of him, monks, it is said, “he has crossed over.” That ocean of the eye, with its waves and whirlpools, its sharks and demons, the brahmin has crossed and gone beyond. He stands on dry ground..... The same is said with regard to the other senses. We read in the “Therígåthå” (Psalms of the Sisters, Canto XIV, 71, Subhå of Jívaka’s Mango-grove) that the Therí Subhå became an anågåmí; she had eradicated clinging to sense objects. A young man, infatuated with the beauty of her eyes, wanted to tempt her. She warned him not to be deluded by the outward appearance of things. In reality there are only elements devoid of self. The Therí said about her eye (vs. 395): What is this eye but a little ball lodged in the fork of a hollow tree, Bubble of film, anointed with tear-brine, exuding slime-drops. Compost wrought in the shape of an eye of manyfold aspects?.... The Therí extracted one of her eyes and handed it to him. The impact of her lesson did not fail to cure the young man of his lust. Later on, in the presence of the Buddha, her eye was restored to her. She continued to develop insight and attained arahatship. Eyesense is only an element devoid of self. It is one of the conditions for seeing. The “Visuddhimagga” (XV, 39) states about the conditions for seeing: “Eye-consciousness arises due to eye, visible object, light and attention”. ******** Nina. #69688 From: Sébastien Billard Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:52 am Subject: Teaching dhamma to children ? sbillard2000 Hi all, Some friend of mine (in reaction to a french website called dhammadana.fr published by a monk) said me that it could be dangerous and irresponsible to teach children and young people that nothing is permanent and that desire is the source of suffering... I would like to have your opinion on this topic. How is Dhamma traditionnaly teached in buddhist countries ? And how do you, you westerners, teach Dhamma to your children ? Are there some things not be said until a given age ? Regards Sébastien Billard :: http://s.billard.free.fr #69689 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 10:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Teaching dhamma to children ? upasaka_howard Hi, Sebastien - In a message dated 3/18/07 3:31:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, s.billard@... writes: > Hi all, > > Some friend of mine (in reaction to a french website called dhammadana.fr > published by a monk) said me that it could be dangerous and irresponsible to > > teach children and young people that nothing is permanent and that desire is > > the source of suffering... I would like to have your opinion on this topic. > How is Dhamma traditionnaly teached in buddhist countries ? And how do you, > you westerners, teach Dhamma to your children ? Are there some things not be > > said until a given age ? > > Regards > > Sébastien Billard > ========================== In broad strokes, I tend to agree with your friend. I think that, as for most things in the moral/spiritual sphere, the Dhamma is best taught to children by example, especially as regards how you relate to them and others. They should be taught the value of the divine abidings and see them demonstrated in how one deals with them and others. They should hear of being aware of what is going on (mindfulness) and let them know how we engage in it, especially in guarding the senses so as to do no harm, and in not hanging on to things that perturb the mind. They should hear of calming the mind through meditation and be aware of our practicing of it. Also, they should hear stories of the Buddha, of his compassion, and of how he found peace and freedom by doing what is good and useful. There is, IMO, little need or virtue in their hearing of not-self or *radical* permanence, but instead should be helped in developing a strong, balanced self-confidence, a trust in their own efficaceousness, and a magnimous and loving spirit. With metta, Howard #69690 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:05 pm Subject: Re: Teaching dhamma to children ? christine_fo... Hello Sébastien, all, Just a quick response before leaving for work. There are many things which young children's minds are actually incapable of understanding, and they may take the wrong meaning from a particular concept and be frightened. When I am counselling a family after the unexpected death of a baby or older family member - children under the age of 7 or 8 years are not capable of understanding the concept of the permanency of death, or even what death is. They have to be approached in a different way to older children. There is a special literature of story books which has grown up to cater to their abilities. There has been a lot of work done with educating children regarding Buddhism: How should I teach Buddhism to my children? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bullitt/bfaq.html#kids Buddhist Studies http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/index.htm Syllabus - Primary Level http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs_syll.htm The Buddhist Education Foundation (UK) http://www.buddhisteducation.co.uk/introduction_english.htm metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #69691 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:20 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (1) scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and connie), Thanks for the further discussion: c: "In her last life, she'd (re?)gained faith and became a lay follower..." Scott: "My vote goes to 'regained'. I think that its total proof that kusala accumulates and that the right conditions are necessary for it to arise and that this occurs in each successive lifetime." Sarah: "I think I'd probably vote for the 'gained' without the 're-'! Why? Because (as I understand) this refers to gaining the faith, 'sturdy', of a sotapanna which only occurred in her last life. Later, as we know, on burning the curry, she became an anagami." c: "I think this stresses that it's not just a straight-forward path/process at least for an ordinary being; ditto, the commentary on her 'name' meaning, << 'O you, who have arrived at a firm state of being in the firm teaching,' 'O you, possessed of the firm states of virtuous conduct, etc.' >>" Perhaps this 'arrived at' is the pithy short-hand for aeons of non-linear process, this 'possessed of' for the accumulated kusala." Sarah: "I think this 'firm state of being in the firm teaching' was only arrived at when she heard the teachings in her last life. Once it is a 'firm' realisation at sotapanna, it is 'straight-forward' in the sense of assured destiny and so on. The virtue may have been 'fulfilled' in her previous lives (as it may be for us now), but just for those lifetimes, don't you think?" Scott: Okay, so she experienced the Path and Fruit at the level of sotapanna in the penultimate lifetime. This is what is meant by 'gained faith'. The 'alterations' effected by magga and phala moments are, due to that which is eradicated, 'accumulated' so to speak - they 'reside' in each moment of consciousness. She may have been 'virtuous' for aeons but it wasn't until the last lifetime that conditions becames such that her burning of the curry was experienced as it was. Have I got it? I had been just thinking of sadhaa, I guess. Sincerely, Scott. #69692 From: Sobhana Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello Ken H, all, Ken H: I hope you will agree that sila dana and bhavana are dhammas (cittas accompanied by cetasikas). They arise purely by conditions – totally independent of a self of any kind. Sobhana: Yes, I agree to a certain extent, our lives have been conditioned by past kamma. The past kamma cannot be changed but is our future conditioned as well? Do the condition that are thrown at a person decides whether that person will attain Nibbana or go to Niraya/Naraka/woeful realm and there is absolutely nothing, nothing at all, that person can do about it? The Noble 8fold path is like the pathway/highway to Nibbana and the sutta is like a road map that guides us there. For example, take a human being to be like a vehicle, a car. The car that travels on the highway is subjected to road conditions, weather conditions and accuracy of the road map (sutta), so whether this car will arrive at its destination (Nibbana) is conditioned by the factors above. If the navigator of the car reads the wrong road sign or follows the wrong map, the car might go to Niraya/Naraka instead or it will get lost in samsara. Therefore, is there a way to make sure that the navigator of the car does not read the wrong road sign or get lost on the highway? Or is the car purely subjected to “conditions” that will take it to whatever destination the "conditions" take it to? The conditions of the road may be bumpy with many obstacles and hindrances but no matter how long the drive is, is there a way/method to make sure this car gets to Nibbana and never go to Niraya or go round and round about in samsara? In abhidhamma, the answer is NO, right? Actually, in one sutta story that I’ve read, I don’t remember the sutta name or number. One day while the Buddha was walking in town with Ananda, Buddha saw an old couple begging on the streets and Buddha stopped for awhile. Ananda asked the Buddha why did Buddha stopped and Buddha said, ”‘Look at that old couple, poor and begging on the street, they used to be rich people but because they were lazy when they were young and they did not know how to run their parent’s business, they became broke. If they were to be hard-working they would have been rich and also if they were to study the sutta and dhamma when they were young, they could at least have attained Sotapanna today instead of being beggers”. That’s how I remember the sutta, it is not word by word. So, the Buddha said “if they had been hard-working, and if they have been following the dhamma”. Why didn’t the Buddha just tell Ananda, “The poor couple has been conditioned to be beggars”? Why did the Buddha tell Ananda that the old couple made poor choices when they were in their younger days? Aren’t choices conditioned?? In confusion, Sobhana #69693 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana scottduncan2 Dear Sobhana, Regarding: S: "...That's how I remember the sutta, it is not word by word. So, the Buddha said 'if they had been hard-working, and if they have been following the dhamma'. Why didn't the Buddha just tell Ananda, 'The poor couple has been conditioned to be beggars'? Why did the Buddha tell Ananda that the old couple made poor choices when they were in their younger days? Aren't choices conditioned??" 'Choice' is conditioned - no one chooses. 'Choice' is an element. Please consider, for example, in relation to something like 'laziness': SN 51,1: "...And what, bhikkhus, is the denourishment that prevents unarisen sloth and torpor from arising and arisen sloth and torpor from increasing and expanding? There are, bhikkhus, the element of arousal, the element of endeavour, the element of exertion: frequently giving careful attention to them is the denourishment that prevents unarisen sloth and torpor from arising and arisen sloth and torpor from increasing and expanding..." ["Ko ca, bhikkhave, anaahaaro ahupannassa vaa thinamiddhassa uppaadaaya, uppannassa vaa thinamiddhassa bhiyobhaavaaya vepullaaya? Atthi, bhikkhave, aarambhadhaatu nikkamakhaatu parakmadhaatu. Tattha yonisomanasikaarabahuliikaaro ayamanaahaaro anupanassa vaa thinamiddhassa uppadaayaa, uppanass vaa thinamiddhassa bhiyobhaavaaya vepullaaya."] Note 60 (Bh. Bodhi): "Spk: The element of arousal (aarambhadhaatu) is the initial phase of energy, the element of endeavour (nikkamadhaatu) intermediate energy, the element of exertion (parakkamadhaatu) energy at full intensity." These elements (dhaatu) are conditioned. The suttas always use conventional speech. I think this is a good example of how, in the suttas, such language is less equivocal. The Buddha refers to 'elements' - and not to someone exerting energy - as 'denourishing' sloth and torpor. I also like how it is shown that yonisomanasikaara facilitates this. Sincerely, Scott. #69694 From: Sobhana Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello Scott, Thanks for your reply. Scott: 'Choice' is conditioned - no one chooses. 'Choice' is an element. 'Choice' is conditioned - no one chooses. 'Choice' is an element. Sobhana: If choice has been conditioned, why did the Buddha tell Ananda the "other possibilities/potentials" that the old beggars could have, "If" they lived their life differently? Wouldn't the Buddha just say, "Those poor beggars, their choices which have been conditioned made them beggars". Why did the Buddha mention the "If" possibility? I do believe our past kamma-conditions, condition what we are/who we are today, but is today conditioned solely by the past, therefore our future has been pre-conditioned from way, way, way back past as well? “Has my whole life been pre-conditioned?” Regards, Sobhana #69695 From: han tun Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:26 pm Subject: Daana Corner (22) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “The Donee” (3 of 3 parts) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The Brahmanasamyutta (S.i,175) maintains that offerings bear greatest results when they are made to those who know their previous lives, who have seen heavens and hells, who have put an end to birth and who have realized ultimate knowledge. Thus the Sangha comprising morally perfect, worthy personages as described in the suttas constitutes the field of merit (punnakkhetta, M.i,447). Just as seeds sown in fertile well-watered fields yields bountiful crops, alms given to the virtuous established on the Noble Eightfold Path yield great results (A.iv,238; i,162). The Dhammapada maintains that fields have weeds as their blemish; lust, hatred, delusion and desire are the blemishes of people and therefore what is given to those who have eliminated those blemishes bears great fruit (Dhp. 356-59). The results of generosity are measured more by the quality of the field of merit represented by the recipient than by the quantity and value of the gift given. The Anguttara Nikaya (A.iv,392-95) records a fabulous alms-giving conducted by the Bodhisatta when he was born as a brahman named Velama. Lavish gifts of silver, gold, elephants, cows, carriages, etc., not to mention food, drink and clothing, were distributed among everybody who came forward to receive them. But this open-handed munificence was not very valuable as far as merit was concerned because there were no worthy recipients. It is said to be more meritorious to feed one person with right view, a stream-enterer (sotapanna), than to give great alms such as that given by Velama. It is more meritorious to feed one once-returner than a hundred stream-enterers. Next in order come non-returners, arahants, Paccekabuddhas and Sammasambuddhas. Feeding the Buddha and the Sangha is more meritorious than feeding the Buddha alone. It is even more meritorious to construct a monastery for the general use of the Sangha of the four quarters of all times. Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is better still. Abiding by the Five Precepts is even more valuable. But better still is the cultivation of metta, loving-kindness, and best of all, the insight into impermanence, which leads to Nibbana. End of “The Donee” “The Motivation of Giving” will be in next post. Han #69696 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:27 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,140 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 140. [From happy to happy destiny.] In the case of one in a happy destiny who has stored up blameless kamma, when he is lying on his death-bed, his blameless kamma according as it has been stored up, or its sign, comes into focus in the mind door. For it is said, 'Then [the good deeds he did in the past] ... cover him [and overspread him and envelop him]' (M.iii,171), and so on. And that applies only in the case of one who has stored up blameless sense-sphere kamma. But in the case of one who has stored up kamma of the exalted spheres only the sign of the kamma comes into focus. Then next to the cognitive series of impulsions ending in registration, or of simple impulsions, that arose contingent upon that [kamma or its sign], death consciousness arises making the life-continuum's objective field its object. When it has ceased, rebirth-linking consciousness arises contingent upon that same kamma or sign of kamma that had come into focus, and it does so located in the happy destiny, being driven there by the force of defilements that have not been cut off. This is the kind of rebirth-linking that has a 'past' or a 'not-so-classifiable' object and comes next to death consciousness with a 'past' object. ********************** 140. sugatiya.m .thitassa pana upacitaanavajjakammassa ``taanissa tasmi.m samaye olambantii''tiaadivacanato mara.nama~nce nipannassa yathuupacita.m anavajjakamma.m vaa kammanimitta.m vaa manodvaare aapaathamaagacchati. ta~nca kho upacitakaamaavacaraanavajjakammasseva. upacitamahaggatakammassa pana kammanimittameva aapaathamaagacchati. ta.m aarabbha uppannaaya tadaaramma.napariyosaanaaya suddhaaya vaa javanaviithiyaa anantara.m bhava"ngavisaya.m aaramma.na.m katvaa cuticitta.m uppajjati. tasmi.m niruddhe tameva aapaathagata.m kamma.m vaa kammanimitta.m vaa aarabbha anupacchinnakilesabalavinaamita.m sugatipariyaapanna.m pa.tisandhicitta.m uppajjati. aya.m atiitaaramma.naaya cutiyaa anantaraa atiitaaramma.naa vaa navattabbaaramma.naa vaa pa.tisandhi. #69697 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 5:43 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Hi Howard, "funny", isn't it, how different things stand out to us (or even to the same person at different times)... like you picking up on "He gives his wives as a gift in order that he might become master over the entire world." while the sentence that stood out most to me was "In practicing the perfection of giving the Great Being should apply the perception of impermanence to life and possessions." I did mention Vessantara over breakfast today and mom, like James, said she didn't believe that ever literally happened, but that she thought the thing with those kind of stories (aesop, jataka, etc) is that they're usually about another kind of truth. Renunciation maybe? Or maybe all those reminders in the texts that one of the big devils is "Mine"? peace, connie #69698 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana scottduncan2 Dear Sobhana, Scott: Welcome to DSG, by the way. S: "I do believe our past kamma-conditions, condition what we are/who we are today, but is today conditioned solely by the past, therefore our future has been pre-conditioned from way, way, way back past as well? 'Has my whole life been pre-conditioned?' One might ask: What are the exact parameters of 'my whole life'? If, as I think, the arising of a moment of consciousness is conditioned by the preceding moment of consciousness and if this exact thing, over and over again, is 'my whole life' (or, indeed, if this moment is 'my whole life'), then conditions hold sway. It sounds as if you might understand conditions differently than do I. Can you say how it is that you do understand this? There are 24 different conditions outlined in Pa.t.thaana. Many of these, all different, can be in force simultaneously. This is good to consider since truly, when one puts it into perspective, there can be no one to have a life, the 'pre-conditioned' nature of which to lament. Sincerely, Scott. #69699 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 3/18/07 7:43:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, connieparker@... writes: > Hi Howard, > "funny", isn't it, how different things stand out to us (or even to the > same person at different times)... like you picking up on "He gives his > wives as a gift in order that he might become master over the entire > world." while the sentence that stood out most to me was "In practicing > the perfection of giving the Great Being should apply the perception of > impermanence to life and possessions." ---------------------------------------- Howard: From each according to his/her idiosyncracies, er, accumulations. ;-)) --------------------------------------- > I did mention Vessantara over breakfast today and mom, like James, said > she didn't believe that ever literally happened, but that she thought the > thing with those kind of stories (aesop, jataka, etc) is that they're > usually about another kind of truth. Renunciation maybe? > -------------------------------- Howard: I like the way your mother thinks! :-) ------------------------------ Or maybe all > > those reminders in the texts that one of the big devils is "Mine"? ------------------------------ Howard: Well no doubt about that. ----------------------------- > peace, > connie > > ================ With metta, Howard #69700 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:24 pm Subject: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana ken_aitch Hi Howard, ------------------------------- H: > Ken, you have correctly written "Whether we like it or not, anatta does mean there is no self to control the world, no self to decide which realities will arise, and no self to possess free will. There are only fleeting, impersonal conditioned namas and rupas. All else is imaginary." A bit more might be usefully said, though, I think: --------------------------------- I agree that more can be usefully said - there are questions that need to be answered. For example, what *are* those dhammas? What causes them to arise or to not arise? How can the final cessation of their arising be brought about? Apart from that, I am not so sure. There is the danger that we will talk around anatta. And this is where you and I often disagree, I think. Sometimes what you see as "useful additional information" is what I see as a roundabout way of introducing self. ------------------------------------------------- H: > The "fleeting, impersonal conditioned namas and rupas" - all or some of them - are what we take to be self. The notion of "personal self" is a broad one, but it includes in part a core that is a self-existent agent, a doer, thinker, feeler, and controller. It is true there is no so such thing. ------------------------------------------------- But there are paramattha dhammas! Let's be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. We should be mindful of the popular, misleading belief that, one day (upon enlightenment), all conditioned dhammas will be seen as illusory, ultimately non-existent and no different from concepts. That belief is *not* supported by the texts. -------------------------------- H: > However, all that we *take* for self is real, -------------------------------- Sorry to be pedantic, but I think you mean, 'the dhammas we take for self are real.' We also take concepts for self, and they are not real. ------------------------- H: > though utterly transient, conditioned, without own being, and impersonal. ------------------------------- I can't resist commenting (yet again) on your loaded phrase, "without own being." It doesn't add anything useful to the rest of your description: "utterly transient, conditioned and impersonal." Instead, it introduces Nagarjuna's heretical doctrine of a "flow of experience" in which no individual nama or rupa exists in its own right. I would definitely leave "without own being" out of any "useful additional information." :-) ----------------------------------------- H: > Included there are "our" emotions, desires, ignorance, wisdom, and will. When cetana (intention, impulse, or will) based in wisdom and the divine abidings occurs, good deeds arise that lead to good in the world, and the intention and resulting actions, the kamma, lead to auspicious future developments within the "same" stream of dhammas, but when cetana is based in ignorance and craving, the results are the opposite. In short, moral responsibility and kammic debt is real, but it does not require a "self" for justification of its existence. ------------------------------------------ Yes, I agree. However, I disagree with any connotation of control, or of 'a self by another name.' I can only repeat the opinion I have already given: Our objective as Dhamma students should be to understand that there are only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. Certainly, more information is required but only where it helps to explain what those dhammas are, how they arose, and so on. Ken H #69701 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:27 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (19) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, As usual, I don't agree with hardly a thing you write. Sarah, I don't know why you feel compelled to give me advice in regards to the Dhamma when it is obvious that I don't believe you really know the Dhamma. This isn't because I am enlightened or anything, it is because I can READ and UNDERSTAND what I read! You write: I think that dana covers many kinds of generosity. Han and Phil were just discussed the example given of sila, the keeping of the precepts… When there's forgiveness, one gives up one's conceit and shows metta and generosity. We read about the giving of 'fearlessness' to others as a kind of dana. When there is forgiveness, there is this gift of letting others live without fear. When there's patience, one accepts the way others behave out of ignorance, without attachment or aversion to it. There is the giving up of one's own wishes at such times and this is a kind of generosity, I think. James: So, in other words, to you, one doesn't really need to give material possessions, money, food, time/effort/work, etc. because one can simply give the "gifts" of morality (precepts), forgiveness, fearlessness, patience, etc. to others. Sarah, where did you come up with these ideas? Quote to me anywhere where the Buddha taught this. Perhaps you are trying to justify stinginess on your part? Do you give money/food/material possessions to the sangha and encourage others to do so? If not, you have no room to give anyone advice about generosity!. Here are just a few of the things the Buddha taught about generosity (notice I quote the BUDDHA! Not Nina, or KS, or anyone else): [The Buddha:] "Then there is the case where a certain person refrains from taking life, refrains from taking what is not given, refrains from sensual misconduct, refrains from false speech, refrains from divisive speech, refrains from abusive speech, refrains from idle chatter, is not covetous, bears no ill will, and has right views. And he gives food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, lodging, & lamps to priests & contemplatives. With the break-up of the body, after death, he reappears in the company of human beings. There he experiences the five strings of human sensuality [delightful sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations]. It's because he refrained from taking what is not given, refrained from sensual misconduct, refrained from false speech, refrained from divisive speech, refrained from abusive speech, refrained from idle chatter, was not covetous, bore no ill will, and had right views that he reappears in the company of human beings. And it's because he gave food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, lodging, & lamps to priests & contemplatives that he experiences the five strings of human sensuality. [Similarly for the case of rebirth in the company of devas] "...It's because he refrained from taking what is not given... and had right views that he reappears in the company of devas. And it's because he gave food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, lodging, & lamps to priests & contemplatives that he experiences the five strings of divine sensuality. But at any rate, brahman, the donor does not go without reward." [The brahman Janussonin:] "It's amazing, Master Gotama, it's astounding, how it's enough to make one want to give a gift, enough to make one want to make an offering, where the donor does not go without reward." "That's the way it is, brahman. That's the way it is. The donor does not go without reward." James'Note: Notice that keeping the precepts is entirely different from the giving of gifts in regards to generosity. It is not enough to simply keep the precepts and consider that giving!!!! ************** "If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared, if there were someone to receive their gift. But because beings do not know, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they eat without having given. The stain of miserliness overcomes their minds." *************** "And what is the treasure of generosity? There is the case of a disciple of the noble ones, his awareness cleansed of the stain of stinginess, living at home, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in being magnanimous, responsive to requests, delighting in the distribution of alms. This is called the treasure of generosity." **************** Conquer anger with lack of anger; bad, with good; stinginess, with a gift; a liar, with truth. ***************** What the miser fears, that keeps him from giving, is the very danger that comes when he doesn't give. **************** Sarah: It's good that you'd like to help and encourage your friends to appreciate the value of generosity and other wholesome states. When we mind or become distressed at their lack of interest or obvious inclinations for such, it's the attachment that is the problem, however. James: Well, of course I have some amount of attachment! I am not enlightened. Sarah, if you would come down off of your high horse every once in a while you would realize that you aren't enlightened either! I will demonstrate and encourage generosity to my friends, and of course I am going to be a little disappointed if they don't pick up on it and follow suit. I am not a perfect being! But, I think it is better to be a little bothered by their lack of interest than to come up with all kinds of ridiculous ideas like keeping the precepts and being polite are forms of generosity! Metta (not to be confused with dana!), James #69702 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha buddhatrue Hi Connie and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Connie (and James) - > > In a message dated 3/18/07 7:46:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, > connieparker@... writes: > > > C: pp.296-7 of the ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's book, the section called A > > Treatise on the Paaramiis. > > > ===================== > As Ricky Ricardo might say, "I think he's got some splainin' to do!" > ;-)) Well, I am very confused! Who said this quote? Connie, you wrote that it was from a sutta, now you are saying it is from a book. Where is it from? Metta, James #69703 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:04 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional ken_aitch Hi Robert, -------------------- <. . .> RK: > I think you are limiting the assistance the texts can give you by not taking into account the conventional as well as ultimate aspects. Consider the Dhammapada atthakatha and the stories of beings who go to hell or heaven based on deeds. Or the Vinaya where a monk is parijika if he recommends an abortion- and his advice is taken. Because it doesn't matter how legal it might be, it is killing. -------------------- On another thread we are discussing the giving away of a wife and children to a known abuser of wives and children. Some members are saying, "It might have been legal in ancient times, but it is, and was, immoral!" You and I, among others, are saying the case in point it was perfectly moral. Moral conduct can occur without right view, but it can never occur with wrong view. Dana, for example, can never be accompanied by belief in permanence (nicca). Nothing can be held onto; there is nothing in the real world that exists for more than a trillionth of a second. So what harm can possibly come from non-attachment? Of course, the conventional picture can be quite the opposite. Non- attachment can seem to have extremely harmful consequences. There might be some zealous Buddhists somewhere who would give away their wives and children (although I doubt it), but wouldn't they have a perception of permanence at such times? And so, wouldn't their "non-attachment" be a false, foolish, imitation of non- attachment? When a doctor refuses to conduct an abortion is his motive necessarily kusala? Someone might plead, "Please, save the mother's life - the child will die anyway!" In that case (I would have to ask myself), is his refusal necessarily akusala? ------------------------------- RK: > It is true that an abortion doctor might not know when or if the cittas are akusala kamma patha. They might be very brief - but they must be there - and they are dangerous. So.. considering the conventional teachings should help to clarify the paramattha , and vv. ------------------------------ So far, you and I are basically in agreement, I think. But the conventional teachings are no different from the ultimate teachings, are they? They both describe the presently arisen (non-conventional) paramattha dhammas. Stories of people and their activities can be helpful in describing the differences between dhammas, but not always. If a woman in trouble asks an abortionist for help, can we really know how he should respond? If a sadistic pervert knocks at our door asking for women and children, how should we respond? Ken H #69704 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:57 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Hi James, The full title of the book is: "The Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of Views: the Brahmajaala Sutta and it's Commentaries" and Bhikkhu Bodhi is the translator. He states in the introduction that "The title of the complete work, The Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of Views, is the result of a free treatment of the several alternative titles given at the sutta's close." Yes, I said it was from The All-Embracing Net of Views; I have sloppy habits and abbreviate. Sorry for the confusion. peace, connie > > C: pp.296-7 of the ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's book, the section called A > > Treatise on the Paaramiis. > > > ===================== > As Ricky Ricardo might say, "I think he's got some splainin' to do!" > ;-)) Well, I am very confused! Who said this quote? Connie, you wrote that it was from a sutta, now you are saying it is from a book. Where is it from? Metta, James #69705 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:02 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha buddhatrue Hi Connie and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Connie and Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > Hi, Connie (and James) - > > > > In a message dated 3/18/07 7:46:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, > > connieparker@ writes: > > > > > C: pp.296-7 of the ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's book, the section called A > > > Treatise on the Paaramiis. > > > > > ===================== > > As Ricky Ricardo might say, "I think he's got some splainin' > to do!" > > ;-)) > > Well, I am very confused! Who said this quote? Connie, you wrote that > it was from a sutta, now you are saying it is from a book. Where is it > from? > > Metta, > James > After doing some research, I found this quote from the book by B. Bodhi "The Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of Views" which is by Acariya Dhammapala in an ancient commentary: "Asked for his own children, wife, slaves, workers, and servants, the Great Man does not give them while they are as yet unwilling to go, afflicted with grief. But when they are willing and joyful, then he gives them. But if he knows that those who ask for them are demonic beings — ogres, demons, or goblins — or men of cruel disposition, then he does not give them away." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel367.html#intro This quote appears to be in direct contradiction to the Jataka tale we are discussing. Didn't the Bodhisattva supposedly give his wife and children away to a very unscrupulous man, and they cried and screamed when being dragged away in restraints? Metta, James #69706 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:10 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > When a doctor refuses to conduct an abortion is his motive > necessarily kusala? Someone might plead, "Please, save the mother's > life - the child will die anyway!" In that case (I would have to ask > myself), is his refusal necessarily akusala? > > ------------------------------- Dear Ken Kusala is not so common as akusala. The doctor may have all sorts of akusala reasons for not killing: maybe he wanted to go see his mistess that day and couldn't be bothered. Or maybe the woman didn't offer enough money...Or.. However killing is always akusala kamma patha. --------------- > RK: > It is true that an abortion doctor might not know when or if the > cittas are akusala kamma patha. They might be very brief - but they > must be there - and they are dangerous. > So.. considering the conventional teachings should help to clarify > the paramattha , and vv. > ------------------------------ > > So far, you and I are basically in agreement, I think. But the > conventional teachings are no different from the ultimate teachings, > are they? They both describe the presently arisen (non- conventional) > paramattha dhammas. _________ This is what I have been saying. What I don't see is how you can think abortion is not necessarily involved in akusala kamma patha- a paramattha dhamma? _____________ > > Stories of people and their activities can be helpful in describing > the differences between dhammas, but not always. If a woman in > trouble asks an abortionist for help, can we really know how he > should respond? If a sadistic pervert knocks at our door asking for > women and children, how should we respond? ____________________ If the abortionist has any understanding of Dhamma he should see that that dhammas arising when he performs the abortion are serious akusala, if he can't then that is showing avijja of a hign degree. Once a bhikkhu - thinking to lesson a criminal's pain, asked the excutioner to kill the man with an extra clean, fast chop(of the head). The executioner put in the additional care, as requested, and the Bhikkhu was subsequently expelled from the order as parajika. It shows how subtle and changing are mindstates, thus thinking these conventional actions over is very helpful. I don't follow your example about someone asking for our children? Giving away children is only for bodhisattas near the time they become Buddha. As we are not one we would have to have a very strange idea of what Dhamma is - and no awareness of paramattha dhammas at all- to think it was right for us. Robert http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/bmc1/ch04.html . Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive a human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise the advantages of death, or incite him to die (thus): "My good man, what use is this wretched, miserable life to you? Death would be better for you than life," or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or incite him to die, he also is defeated and no longer in communion. This rule against intentionally causing the death of a human being is best understood in terms of five factors, all of which must be present for there to be a parajika offense. 1) Object: a human being, which according to the Vibhanga includes human fetuses as well, counting from the time consciousness first arises in the womb immediately after conception up to the time of death. 2) Intention: knowingly, consciously, deliberately, and purposefully wanting to cause that person's death. "Knowingly" also includes the factor of — 3) Perception: perceiving the person as a living being. 4) Effort: whatever one does with the purpose of causing that person to die. 5) Result: The person dies as the result of one's act. Object. The Vibhanga defines a human being as a person "from the time consciousness first becomes manifest in a mother's womb, up to its death-time." (The concept of death-time, since it relates most directly to questions that arise in treating the terminally ill, will be discussed in the section dealing with that topic, below.) It follows from this that a bhikkhu who intentionally causes an abortion — by arranging for the operation, supplying the medicines, or giving advice that results in an abortion — incurs a parajika. A bhikkhu who encourages a woman to use a means of contraception that works after the point of conception would be guilty of a parajika if she were to follow his advice. #69707 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana lbidd2 Hi Sobhana and Scott (and Howard), Sobhana: "I do believe our past kamma-conditions, condition what we are/who we are today, but is today conditioned solely by the past, therefore our future has been pre-conditioned from way, way, way back past as well? 'Has my whole life been pre-conditioned?'" Larry: Yes, your whole life is conditioned. Here's a speculative explanation of how this might work: Accumulations of kamma in a previous life, accumulations of dana for example, condition the arising of kamma result in this life, wealth for example, by way of kamma condition. Accumulations of responses to kamma result, mostly from this life, condition a response to this kamma result, greed for example, by way of decisive support condition. So kamma conditions kamma result by way of kamma condition, and kamma conditions kamma by way of decisive support condition. But they are different kammas. There is something inexorable and straight forward about kamma condition. It's like arithmatic. In this example decisive support condition might be characterized as 'learning', a higher mathematics. Perhaps Howard knows one that could account for it. Of course these accumulations of responses to kamma result in this life are not only conditioning another response to another kamma result in this life by way of decisive support condition, they are also conditioning kamma result in the next life by way of kamma condition. Kamma accumulates in two different ways and conditions several different dhammas in several different ways, but for this explanation it is two and two. _In my opinion_ ;-) Larry #69708 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:23 pm Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/18/07 8:24:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ------------------------------- > H: >Ken, you have correctly written "Whether we like it or not, > anatta does mean there is no self to control the world, no self to > decide which realities will arise, and no self to possess free will. > There are only fleeting, impersonal conditioned namas and rupas. All > else is imaginary." A bit more might be usefully said, though, I > think: > --------------------------------- > > I agree that more can be usefully said - there are questions that > need to be answered. For example, what *are* those dhammas? What > causes them to arise or to not arise? How can the final cessation of > their arising be brought about? > > Apart from that, I am not so sure. There is the danger that we will > talk around anatta. --------------------------------------- Howardf: I won't. I'll just talk to the way things are. -------------------------------------- And this is where you and I often disagree, I > > think. Sometimes what you see as "useful additional information" is > what I see as a roundabout way of introducing self. ------------------------------------- Howard: You are free to see it as you will. ----------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------- > H: >The "fleeting, > impersonal conditioned namas and rupas" - all or some of them - are > what we take to be self. The notion of "personal self" is a broad > one, but it includes in part a core that is a self-existent agent, a > doer, thinker, feeler, and controller. It is true there is no so such > thing. > ------------------------------------------------- > > But there are paramattha dhammas! Let's be careful not to throw the > baby out with the bath water. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Was someone suggesting doing so? No one I know. ------------------------------------------------- We should be mindful of the popular, > > misleading belief that, one day (upon enlightenment), all conditioned > dhammas will be seen as illusory, ultimately non-existent and no > different from concepts. That belief is *not* supported by the texts. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I never said they were no different from concepts. In fact, I have pointed out the difference on several occasions. I have also pointed out that all conditioned dhammas are impermanent, insubstantial, and dependently originated, and thus empty of self. But you don't seem to care for that part too much. ------------------------------------------------ > > -------------------------------- > H: >However, all that we *take* for self is real, > -------------------------------- > > Sorry to be pedantic, but I think you mean, 'the dhammas we take for > self are real.' We also take concepts for self, and they are not real. ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, you are correct - pedantic but correct. ------------------------------------ > > ------------------------- > H: >though utterly transient, conditioned, without own being, and > impersonal. > ------------------------------- > > I can't resist commenting (yet again) on your loaded phrase, "without > own being." > -------------------------------- Howard: Comment all you will - it is true. That is what it means to be dependently originated. I know you dearly want paramattha dhammas to be self-existent, but they just are not. ------------------------------- It doesn't add anything useful to the rest of your > > description: "utterly transient, conditioned and impersonal." > Instead, it introduces Nagarjuna's heretical doctrine of a "flow of > experience" in which no individual nama or rupa exists in its own > right. -------------------------------- Howard: It is dead-on correct. BTW, I don't know what you are talking about with regard to Nagarjuna's alleged "flow of experience". He never ever spoke that way. Get your heretics straight, Ken. ---------------------------------- > > I would definitely leave "without own being" out of any "useful > additional information." :-) ---------------------------------- Howard: I know you would leave it out, as it makes you quite uncomfortable. Not my problem. ---------------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------- > H: >Included there are "our" emotions, desires, ignorance, wisdom, > and will. When cetana (intention, impulse, or will) based in wisdom > and the divine abidings occurs, good deeds arise that lead to good in > the world, and the intention and resulting actions, the kamma, lead > to auspicious future developments within the "same" stream of > dhammas, but when cetana is based in ignorance and craving, the > results are the opposite. > In short, moral responsibility and kammic debt is real, but it does > not require a "self" for justification of its existence. > ------------------------------------------ > > Yes, I agree. However, I disagree with any connotation of control, or > of 'a self by another name.' > --------------------------------------- Howard: Cetana is willing/impulse. It is a mental activity that occurs. It, along with other namas, constitutes volition. It has nothing to do with a self. If self is the bath water for you, then volition is the baby. ------------------------------------- I can only repeat the opinion I have > > already given: Our objective as Dhamma students should be to > understand that there are only the presently arisen paramattha > dhammas. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Our objective should be to come to directly apprehend the tilakhana and paticcasamupada, and to gain the ability to relinquish, especially to relinquish clinging to views. As for there only being paramattha dhammas, I believe that to be entirely the case. ------------------------------------ Certainly, more information is required but only where it > > helps to explain what those dhammas are, how they arose, and so on. ------------------------------------ Howard: Ken it seems to me that even when I write something accomodating, straightforward, and unobjectionable by any reasonable Buddhist standard, you look to disagree and argue. You must really enjoy that. I do not. ------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ================= With metta, Howard #69709 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (19) sarahprocter... Hi James & all, Thanks for your further reflections and good quotes. --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: So, in other words, to you, one doesn't really need to give > material possessions, money, food, time/effort/work, etc. because one > can simply give the "gifts" of morality (precepts), forgiveness, > fearlessness, patience, etc. to others. Sarah, where did you come up > with these ideas? Quote to me anywhere where the Buddha taught > this. ..... S: I didn't say one needn't give material gifts. I said that 'dana covers many kinds of generosity' and gave some other examples that I find helpful to reflect on. If they're not helpful to you or others, that's OK! From the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka - "A Treatise on the Parmais": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html "(1) The perfection of giving, firstly, is to be practiced by benefiting beings in many ways — by relinquishing one's own happiness, belongings, body, and life to others, by dispelling their fear, and by instructing them in the Dhamma. Herein, giving is threefold by way of the object to be given: the giving of material things (aamisadaana), the giving of fearlessness (abhayadaana), and the giving of the Dhamma (dhammadaana). "Among these, the object to be given can be twofold: internal and external. The external gift is tenfold: food, drink, garments, vehicles, garlands, scents, unguents, bedding, dwellings, and lamps. These gifts, again, become manifold by analyzing each into its constituents; e.g., food into hard food, soft food, etc. The external gift can also become sixfold when analyzed by way of sense object (aaramma.nato): visible forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tangibles, and non-sensory objects...." .... "The internal gift should be understood in two ways. How? Just as a man, for the sake of food and clothing, surrenders himself to another and " enters into servitude and slavery, in the same way the Great Man, wishing for the supreme welfare and happiness of all beings, desiring to fulfill his own perfection of giving, with a spiritually-oriented mind, for the sake of enlightenment, surrenders himself to another and enters into servitude, placing himself at the disposal of others. Whatever limbs or organs of his might be needed by others — hands, feet, eyes, etc. — he gives them away to those who need them, without trembling and without cowering. He is no more attached to them, and no more shrinks away (from giving them to others), than if they were external objects....." .... "The giving of fearlessness is the giving of protection to beings when they have become frightened on account of kings, thieves, fire, water, enemies, lions, tigers, other wild beasts, dragons, ogres, demons, goblins, etc. The giving of the Dhamma is an unperverted discourse on the Dhamma given with an undefiled mind; that is, methodical instruction conducive to good in the present life, in the life to come, and to ultimate deliverance. " .... S: Other examples are elaborated on, such as the gift of visible objects, sounds, scents, tastes, tangibles and mental objects. Examples given of mental objects are by way of nutriment, drink and life. For example, the giving of meal tickets, providing doctors to help the sick, liberating animals or protecting the life of beings in any way. As for the gift of virtue and so on, we read about "virtue as the foundation of all achievements". Han gave a quote about "the meticulous observance of the Five Precpts" resulting in the giving of "fearlessness, love and benevolence to all beings". ..... James:> [The Buddha:] "Then there is the case where a certain person refrains > from taking life, refrains from taking what is not given, refrains > from sensual misconduct, refrains from false speech, refrains from > divisive speech, refrains from abusive speech, refrains from idle > chatter, is not covetous, bears no ill will, and has right views. And > he gives food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, > lodging, & lamps to priests & contemplatives. With the break-up of > the body, after death, he reappears in the company of human beings. > There he experiences the five strings of human sensuality [delightful > sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations]. It's because he > refrained from taking what is not given, refrained from sensual > misconduct, refrained from false speech, refrained from divisive > speech, refrained from abusive speech, refrained from idle chatter, > was not covetous, bore no ill will, and had right views that he > reappears in the company of human beings. And it's because he gave > food, drink, cloth, vehicles, garlands, scents, creams, bed, lodging, > & lamps to priests & contemplatives that he experiences the five > strings of human sensuality. > <...> > James'Note: Notice that keeping the precepts is entirely different > from the giving of gifts in regards to generosity. It is not enough > to simply keep the precepts and consider that giving!!!! .... S: Any kind of goodness through body, speech or mind -- whatever there is an opportunity for -- should be encouraged. Again, I think they are all for all of us, myself most certainly included, to consider and develop further. Thank you for your other good quotes and reminders. In summary, your original concerns were with regard to helping close friends overcome their stinginess which you also felt led to conflicts. It was in this regard that I was suggesting a)the showing of one's own good example and b) the reflecting, practising and encouraging of different kinds of dana, not just the offering of material goods to the Sangha which is not likely to appeal to your non-Buddhist friends. It's no problem at all if you don't like any of these comments or think I'm being hypocritical in anyway:-). I was also thinking of the Aghatavinaya Sutta, (A iii 186) which stresses the reflection on the good qualities of others, rather than dwelling on their bad qualities. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52455 For example: "Now as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior but pure in his verbal behavior, how should one subdue hatred for him? Just as when a monk who makes use of things that are thrown away sees a rag in the road: Taking hold of it with his left foot and spreading it out with his right, he would tear off the sound part and go off with it. In the same way, when the individual is impure in his bodily behavior but pure in his verbal behavior, one should at that time pay no attention to the impurity of his bodily behavior, and instead pay attention to the purity of his verbal behavior. Thus the hatred for him should be subdued." ... > ************** > James: Well, of course I have some amount of attachment! I am not > enlightened. Sarah, if you would come down off of your high horse > every once in a while you would realize that you aren't enlightened > either! <...> ... S: ;-) ..... James:> Metta (not to be confused with dana!), .... S: Metta (as a kind of dana, the gift of fearlessness, too!), From the Metta Karaniya Sutta: " 'Joyful and safe [Let every creature's heart rejoice']" Sarah ======== #69710 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:57 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (20) dhammanando_... Hi Jon, > I have a question, please. I think I recognise the Pali terms > 'ahuneyyo' and 'dakkhineyyo' from the recollection of the virtues of > the Sangha. Is the author saying that these terms were also part of > the lexicon of sacrificial practices? Do we know what their > significance was in that context? We know the relevant textual sources, but I think one would need to be a brahmin, or at least to undertake a thorough study of brahminical lore, to understand their significance. Certainly it all goes over my head. In Sanskrit the three fires are called gaarhapati agni, aahavaniiya agni, and dak.si.na agni, which are the names of the three kinds of sacrificial fire (or fire altar) mentioned often in the Vedas, Upani.sads, Puraa.nas etc., cleverly adapted by the Buddha to fit his own message. I don't have access to the Vedas themselves, but here's a typical example from one of the post-Buddhist Upani.sads: "The gaarhapatya fire altar with five bricks is the year. And its five bricks are spring, summer, rainy season, autumn, winter; and by them the fire has a head, two sides, a centre, and a tail. This earth, the gaarhapatya fire altar, here is the first sacrificial pile for Prajaapati, who knows the Puru.sa (the Viraaj). It presented the sacrificer to Vaayu (the wind) by lifting him with the hands to the sky. That Vaayu is Praa.na (Hira.nyagarbha). "Praa.na is Agni, the dak.si.naagni fire altar, and its bricks are the five vital breaths, Praa.na, Vyaana, Apaana, Samaana, Udaana; and by them the fire has a head, two sides, a centre, and a tail. This sky (the dak.si.naagni fire altar) here is the second sacrificial pile for Prajaapati, who knows the Puru.sa. It presented the sacrificer to Indra, by lifting him with the hands to heaven. That Indra is Aaditya, the sun. "That (Indra) is the Agni, the aahavaniiya fire altar, and its bricks are the .Rg, the Yaju, the Saama, the Atharva-angirasas, the Itihaasa, and the Puraa.na; and by them the fire has a head, two sides, a tail, and a centre. This heaven, the aahavaniiya fire altar, is the third sacrificial pile for Prajaapati, who knows the Puru.sa. With the hands it makes a present of the sacrificer to the Knower of the Self (Prajaapati); then the Knower of the Self, lifting him up, presented him to Brahman. In him he becomes full of happiness and joy. "The earth is the gaarhapatya fire, the sky the dak.sina fire, the heaven the aahavaniiya fire; and therefore they are also the Pavamaana (becoming pure), the Paavaka (making pure), and the Suci (clean, purified). By this (by the three deities, Pavamaana, Paavaka, and Suci) the sacrifice (of the three fires, the gaarhapatya, dak.sina, and aahavaniiya) is manifested. And because the digestive fire also is a compound of the Pavamaana, Paavaka, and Suci, therefore that fire is to receive oblations, is to be laid with bricks, is to be praised, and to be meditated on." (Maitraaya.na Braahma.na Upani.sad VI 33-4) Well that all seems nice and clear. :-) Best wishes, Dhammanando #69711 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:29 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (19) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Well, I am not teaching at all this week, as there are big tests next week, so I have a lot of time on my hands. So, I guess I will take one more whack at this issue with you. I appreciate that you are trying to help, but you seem to keep missing the point. Sarah: It's no problem at all if you don't like any of these comments James: It's no problem for who? For you or for me? ;-)) Sarah: or think I'm being hypocritical in anyway:-). James: I didn't mention anything about you being hypocritical. However, if you think of yourself as a Buddhist and yet you don't give material gifts, when possible, to the Sangha, then you are being hypocritical to teach others about Buddhist generosity. (I noticed that you skipped this question…???) Sarah: In summary, your original concerns were with regard to helping close friends overcome their stinginess which you also felt led to conflicts. James: You are WAY overstating what I originally asked. I asked Han if he had come across any teachings on how to help people become more generous, if possible. You make it sound like I am a self-righteous zealot who wants to force my friends to change their evil ways! lol Sarah: It was in this regard that I was suggesting a) the showing of one's own good example and b) the reflecting, practising and encouraging of different kinds of dana, not just the offering of material goods to the Sangha which is not likely to appeal to your non-Buddhist friends. James: I agree with your "a", but not your "b". The encouraging of "different kinds of dana" is not what the Buddha taught (I will get to that in a moment), and I didn't mention anything about getting my non-Buddhist friends to donate to the Sangha! I was asking about ways to encourage them to be more generous, overall. (BTW,you really shouldn't give advice unless you know for sure what you are giving advice about.) Sarah: I didn't say one needn't give material gifts. I said that 'dana coversmany kinds of generosity' and gave some other examples that I find helpful to reflect on. If they're not helpful to you or others, that's OK! From the commentary to the Cariya Pitaka - "A Treatise on the Parmais": http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html James: Sarah, the giving of material gifts or volunteer time (which is equal to money/material possessions) is the most important type of dana and the one that the Buddha taught and stressed. These other types of things which you categorize as "dana" just barely fit in that category, if at all, and they weren't taught by the Buddha as being dana. I wrote to you to quote to me where the Buddha taught these things and you reply with giving me lots and lots of quotes from commentaries! Don't you understand that the Buddha didn't teach the commentaries?? Secondly, these immaterial gifts you quote about are meant for those who are on the path to become a Buddha!! Do you really think it is appropriate for me to encourage my non-Buddhist friends to donate their lives into the service of others (as a slave), give their organs away to those in need, or to give discourses on the Dhamma with an undefiled mind? Come on! Sarah: I was also thinking of the Aghatavinaya Sutta, (A iii 186) which stresses the reflection on the good qualities of others, rather than dwelling on their bad qualities. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/52455 James: Thank you for this sutta quote (finally one from the Buddha!! ;-)), but I don't think it really applies to this situation. The quote begins: ""Now as for a person who is impure in his bodily behavior but pure in his verbal behavior, how should one subdue hatred for him?..." I don't have hatred for my friends! Lol Again, you are overstating the situation. I am just somewhat concerned for them, and it doesn't occupy my every waking moment. Okay, I'm done- poke me with a fork, I'm fried! ;-))—you can have the last word if you want it. Metta (again, not the same as dana, but it is involved), James #69712 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:39 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Hi James, All, James: After doing some research, I found this quote from the book by B. Bodhi "The Discourse on the All-Embracing Net of Views" which is by Acariya Dhammapala in an ancient commentary: "Asked for his own children, wife, slaves, workers, and servants, the Great Man does not give them while they are as yet unwilling to go, afflicted with grief. But when they are willing and joyful, then he gives them. But if he knows that those who ask for them are demonic beings — ogres, demons, or goblins — or men of cruel disposition, then he does not give them away." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel367.html#intro This quote appears to be in direct contradiction to the Jataka tale we are discussing. Didn't the Bodhisattva supposedly give his wife and children away to a very unscrupulous man, and they cried and screamed when being dragged away in restraints? Connie: I questioned that, too, but again, I think there's some poetic license in the telling. For one thing, the wife was given to Sakka disguised as someone else in other tellings. As for the version we're talking about, Nagasena's answer must be: 'The wife, O king, was a consenting party. But the children, by reason of their tender age, lamented. Had they thoroughly understood, they too would have approved.' I accept that. peace, connie #69713 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:59 pm Subject: Re: Birth & Death Consciousness and Time [Re: [dsg] Rants and Raves ;-)) ...] sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: >....Ruupa lasts seventeen > times longer than citta, or, if we take into account the three > moments of citta, fiftyone times longer than citta. Ruupa has its > arising moment, the moments of presence and the moment of its > dissolution. .... S: Several times I've meant to ask whether we can really say that taking into account the 3 moments (or phases?) of citta that rupa lasts 51x longer than citta? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to say that on taking the 3 moments/phases into account, rupa then last 51x as long as the phases of citta (rather than just citta)? Metta, Sarah ======= #69714 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Present, past and not-so-classifiable. sarahprocter... Hi Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > BTW we had one proofcopy of Perfections, and it is a beauty, also the > cover with the bodytree. The lay out is so nice. It takes time before > we get the copies here, ready to send, for all who are interested. > They can contact me off line and I have already collected postal > addresses. .... S: We're delgighted to hear this good news! I appreciate yours and Lodewijk's generosity in translating, editing, printing and now distributing this excellent book, written by A.Sujin. I'm sure it'll be a great resource and addition to anyone's Dhamma library. So I encourage anyone interested who would like a copy to accept Nina's kind offer and to send her your address (if she doesn't have it) off-list. Meanwhile, if anyone relatively new to the list (or any old-timers who have changed their minds) would like a hard copy of A.Sujin's book 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas', I believe there are still some copies in Bangkok. In this case, let me or Sukin have your address off-list. Metta, Sarah [Nina, we may be seeing Alan Weller ('Zolag' Alan) in England soon, so we could probably arrange to carry our copies and bring back. I'll let you know when this is confirmed]. #69715 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:23 am Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional ken_aitch Hi Robert, --------------- <. . .> RK: > However killing is always akusala kamma patha. ---------------- Yes, I know. I have got myself tangled up, yet again, over this point. I am trying to say that a concept – including the concept of one person killing another – is only a concept. Akusala kamma patha, on the other hand, is a dhamma. As with all concepts, if we draw too close a parallel between the concept of killing and the `dhamma of killing' we will end up with the idea of control over paramattha dhammas. ------------------------------ <. . .> KH: > > So far, you and I are basically in agreement, I think. But the > conventional teachings are no different from the ultimate teachings, > are they? They both describe the presently arisen (non- conventional) > paramattha dhammas. RK: > This is what I have been saying. What I don't see is how you can think abortion is not necessarily involved in akusala kamma patha- a paramattha dhamma? ------------------------------ I admit I may be stretching the point a bit, and I am not expressing my thoughts very well. A dhamma is a dhamma. A car is not a dhamma, and a person is not a dhamma. Nor is the termination of a pregnancy or the dropping of a bomb etc, a dhamma. I think you are saying if there has been the concept "abortion" or "the concept "intentional bombing of a populated area" then there must have been the dhamma "akusala kamma patha." I am not so sure. I will think over the information you have given me (about the bhikkhu who wanted to lessen a criminal's pain etc.), but it seems to me on first reading to be more about training rules than about concepts v. realities. Ken H #69716 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (20) sarahprocter... Dear Han, James, Jon, Ven Dhammanando & all, Jon's and Ven D's further discussion on the following sutta encouraged me to look it up. --- han tun wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily > de Silva. <....> > In the Anguttara Nikaya the Buddha describes, with > sacrificial terminology, three types of fires that > should be tended with care and honor (A.iv,44). They > are ahuneyyaggi, gahapataggi and dakkhineyyaggi. The > Buddha explained that ahuneyyaggi means one's parents, > and they should be honored and cared for. Gahapataggi > means one's wife and children, employees and > dependents. Dakkineyyaggi represents religious persons > who have either attained the goal of arahantship or > have embarked on a course of training for the > elimination of negative mental traits. All these > should be cared for and looked after as one would tend > a sacrificial fire. According to the Maha-mangala > Sutta, offering hospitality to one's relatives is one > of the great auspicious deeds a layperson can perform > (Sn. 262-63). ..... S: From the 'Metta' site, here is the relevant part from AN Bk of 7s, 44: "Brahmin, these three fires should be revered, esteemed, honoured and fostered with rightful pleasantness. What three? The fire worthy of offerings, the household fire and the fire worthy of gifts. Brahmin, what is the fire worthy of offerings? Brahmin, mother or father is the fire worthy of offerings. What is the reason? Brahmin, I am adored and produced from them. Therefore mother and father are the fire worthy of offerings. They should be revered, esteemed, honoured and fostered with rightful pleasantness. Brahmin, what is the fire of the household? Brahmin, sons, wife, slaves, messengers and workmen are the household fire. Therefore the household fire should be revered, esteemed, honoured and fostered with rightful pleasantness. Brahmin, what is the fire worthy of gifts? Here, Brahmin, of those recluses and Brahmins who have given up false teachers, some train to be patient and gentle, a certain one tames himself, a certain one appeases himself, a certain one extinguishes. Brahmin, this is the fire worthy of gifts. The fire worthy of gifts should be revered, esteemed, honoured and fostered with rightful pleasantness. Brahmin, as for the fire of firewood, from time to time it should be lighted, attended to, put out and put aside." ****** S: The PTS translation is similar. May we all learn to tend these fires. "Verily, braahmna, these three fires, when esteemed, revered, venerated, respected, must bring best happiness." Metta, Sarah p.s James, thx for your further comments. No more forks:-) I like this sutta about the tending of the 3 fires very much - I like to give or share when there's an appropriate opportunity, no matter which fire it is, whether it is to the (bhikkhu) Sangha or to family, workmen or gift-worthy dhamma-followers or others. =============== #69717 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:06 am Subject: Condensing, Collecting, Convening & Converging Concentration! bhikkhu5 Friends: What is the Concentration Ability (Samâdhi Indriya)? Concentration is the ability to focus all mental factors on 1 object! Concentration (samÄ?dhi) is a mental ability & power when steady... Concentration is a Link to Awakening & a Factor on the Noble Way. Concentration is non-distraction, non-scatter, and non-diffusion... Concentration is collecting together, unifying, focusing, condensing! Making mental release the object the Noble Disciple gains SamÄ?dhi, achieves one-pointedness, & enters fixed unified mental absorption! The Definition of these 4 subtle Mental JhÄ?na Absorptions: Having eliminated the 5 mental hindrances, mental defects that obstruct understanding, quite secluded from all sensual-desires , protected from any detrimental mental state, one enters & dwells in the 1st jhÄ?na; full of joy & pleasure born of solitude, joined with directed & sustained thought. With the stilling of directed and sustained thought, one enters and dwells in the 2nd jhÄ?na, calmed assurance & unification of mind with joy & pleasure now born of concentration, devoid of any thinking! With the fading away of joy, in equanimity, clearly comprehending, one enters upon & remains in the 3rd jhÄ?na, still feeling pleasure in the body, about which the Noble Ones declare: In aware equanimity one dwells in Happiness... With the leaving behind of both pleasure & pain, and with the prior cessation of both joy and sorrow, one enters and dwells in the 4th jhÄ?na mental absorption, which is an entirely stilled mental state of awareness, purified by the equanimity of neither-pain-nor-pleasure! The Entrance: As long as a Bhikkhu does not perceive the disappearance of the 5 hindrances in himself, he feels as if in debt, in sickness, in bonds, in slavery, on a desert journey. But when he perceives disappearance of the five hindrances in himself, it is as if he were freed from debt, from sickness, from bonds, slavery, & from the desert dangers... And when he knows that these 5 mental hindrances have left him, then gladness arises in him, from gladness comes joy, from the joy in his mind, his body is tranquillised! With a calm body he delights in happiness, & with this happiness his mind is concentrated into focus. Thus secluded from sense-desires , isolated from detrimental states, he enters and remains in the 1st jhÄ?na, which is of directed thought & sustained evaluation, born of seclusion, filled with pleasure & joy And with this pleasure and joy born of seclusion, he so permeates, drenches, fills & pervades his whole body that there is not even a single spot in his entire body that is unsoftened by this pleasure & joy born of seclusion... The Similes: As, your majesty, all rafters there are in a house with a ridge roof, they all lead to the ridgepole, incline towards the ridgepole, lean on the ridgepole & this ridge beam is termed their peak summit, even & exactly just so, your Majesty, whatever advantageous mental states there are, all of these are headed by concentration, incline towards concentration, lean on concentration, is based on concentration ... As, your majesty, a king might enter battle with an army of 4 parts, and the whole army, the elephants, horses, chariots & foot-soldiers would be headed by him, incline towards him, lean on him, and tend towards him, would follow after just him, even exactly so is indeed this unique concentration the chief, the captain, the commander, & the conductor of the orchestra of mental states… Miln. 38 The Explanation: It is concentration in that it places & anchors the mind evenly on 1 same single object, it settles & collects mind rightly together there. Its characteristic is absence of wandering, dispersal, & distraction. Its function is joining & binding together of co-arised mental states as water does for bath-powder. Its manifestation is calming down, tranquillization, stilling, ceasing, and peace. Its proximate cause is especially happiness. It should be seen as fixed steadiness of mind, like the steadiness of candle-flames in absence of perturbing wind! Vism. XIV 139 More on this sublime Concentration: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Samma-Samadhi.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Concentration_Samadhi.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Feeding_Concentration.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Concentration.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Requisites_for_JhÄ?na_Absorption.htm Condensing, Collecting, Convening & Converging Concentration! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69718 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:41 am Subject: details about eyesense. nilovg Dear all, for those who are interested I can repost some of my Visuddhimagga Tiika studies on the subject of rupa. First a remark. We read about the eye as asubha in the text about the Therii: We can compare this with the “Atthasåliní” (II, Book II, Ch III, 306) the eye as “compound organ”, described as follows: ... a lump of flesh is situated in the cavity of the eye, bound by the bone of the cavity of the eye below, by the bone of the brow above, by the eye-peaks on both sides, by the brain inside, by the eyelashes outside.... Although the world perceives the eye as white, as (of a certain) bigness, extension, width, they do not know the real sentient eye, but only the physical basis thereof. That lump of flesh situated in the cavity of the eye is bound to the brain by sinewy threads. Therein are white, black, red, extension, cohesion, heat and mobility. The eye is white from the abundance of phlegm, black from that of bile, red from that of blood, rigid from the element of extension, fluid from that of cohesion, hot from that of heat, and oscillating from that of mobility. Such is the compound organ of the eye....> This is a very unattractive way of describing the eye. This is meaningful, it shows the asubha aspect. We shall see the same in the unattractive descriptions of the other senses. I just heard : understanding asubha does not mean that one has to say: it is not beautiful. Pa~n~naa can realize that what is impermanent is not beautiful. As to the “sentient eye” or eyesense, this is to be found, according to the “Atthasåliní”, in the middle of the black circle, surrounded by white circles, and it permeates the ocular membranes “as sprinkled oil permeates seven cotton wicks.” Some details about the seven layers of cotton: (I wrote in Tiika studies, Vi. XIV, 48, in an answer to Larry): That is why it is said: Eyesense is a hidden reality, you cannot touch it. But it is there, arising and falling away. You know it is there, otherwise you could not see. (an unobserved rupa that is real all the same!) As you will see in the Tika: Why here the seven layers? Perhaps to indicate that what we take for eye are so many groups of rupa arising and falling away. The seven layers are not the eyesense, but closely connected with it, eyesense cannot arise in isolation. You had a ? mark after louse head, why? It is only a simile. In fact, it is even smaller. The Tika explains: Note: its procedure: at this very, very small point there is a lot going on: when it is the right time for kamma to produce seeing, there is eyesense that is ready to receive visible object, so that there can be seeing.> Nina. #69719 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Present, past and not-so-classifiable. nilovg Hi Sarah, I am so glad about that, since he cannot join India now. This is then a compensation for him. Maybe you can tape discussions with him, he has such good points. You know, in my Thai copies of navatta I found more details, such as having an elevated subject with kusala citta without pa~n~naa, but I quickly put this back in my cupboard. It is too much for me now. So complicated. Nina. Op 19-mrt-2007, om 8:10 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > we may be seeing Alan Weller ('Zolag' Alan) in England soon #69720 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:02 am Subject: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana ken_aitch Hi Howard, ------------------------------------ > Ken it seems to me that even when I write something accomodating, straightforward, and unobjectionable by any reasonable Buddhist standard, you look to disagree and argue. You must really enjoy that. I do not. > ------------------------------------- That's an interesting remark. It seems to me that all (or nearly all) of your posts to DSG refer, either directly or indirectly, to the two distinctly different perspectives that are promoted here. There is the "no control" perspective, which sees formal meditation as a rite or ritual, and there is the "popularly accepted" perspective, which sees formal meditation as fundamental to the Path, and which sees the no-control perspective as a doctrine of hopelessness and helplessness. Am I wrong in thinking that this is always in the back of your mind when you write a post to DSG? I am not suggesting there would be anything wrong with that. I know it is in the back of my mind whenever I write a post. In your previous post you wrote: ------------------------------- > Ken, you have correctly written "Whether we like it or not, > anatta does mean there is no self to control the world, no self to > decide which realities will arise, and no self to possess free will. > There are only fleeting, impersonal conditioned namas and rupas. All > else is imaginary." A bit more might be usefully said, though, I > think The "fleeting, > impersonal conditioned namas and rupas" - all or some of them - are > what we take to be self. The notion of "personal self" is a broad > one, but it includes in part a core that is a self-existent agent, a > doer, thinker, feeler, and controller. It is true there is no so such > thing. ---------------------------------- Am I wrong in thinking that this is a counter to one of the no- controllers' key arguments? That is, to the argument that only namas – not sentient beings - ultimately experience objects? It seems to me that you are dampening down this argument by maintaining that, ultimately, neither concepts nor dhammas experience objects. -------------------------------------------------- KH: > > But there are paramattha dhammas! Let's be careful not to throw the > baby out with the bath water. > Howard: > Was someone suggesting doing so? No one I know. ------------------------------------------------- Maybe I am losing my mind, but I seem to remember that you, on several occasions, have posited the ultimate non-existence of conditioned dhammas. -------------------------- KH: > > We should be mindful of the popular, > > misleading belief that, one day (upon enlightenment), all conditioned > dhammas will be seen as illusory, ultimately non-existent and no > different from concepts. That belief is *not* supported by the texts. Howard: > I never said they were no different from concepts. In fact, I have pointed out the difference on several occasions. I have also pointed out that all conditioned dhammas are impermanent, insubstantial, and dependently originated, and thus empty of self. But you don't seem to care for that part too much. --------------------------- Sorry if I have misrepresented you again, but haven't you occasionally suggested that samsara (conditioned reality), when seen as it truly is, is Nibbana? -------------------------------------------------- KH: > > I can't resist commenting (yet again) on your loaded phrase, "without > own being." > Howard: > Comment all you will - it is true. That is what it means to be dependently originated. I know you dearly want paramattha dhammas to be self-existent, but they just are not. --------------------------------------------------- They have their own characteristics. Some characteristics are shared with other dhammas, while others belong uniquely to just one dhamma. Therefore, dhammas are by any measure self-existent. Why, in your opinion, do I dearly want paramattha dhammas to be self existent? Isn't it because only self-existent dhammas can provide a plausible alternative to concepts – and, therefore, to formal meditation? Can you see why I tend to disagree with your posts? Can you see why I always assume they relate to our one major point of departure (formal practive)? I am quite happy with the way things are, by the way. I am not objecting to it at all. --------------------------------------- Howard: > Cetana is willing/impulse. It is a mental activity that occurs. It, along with other namas, constitutes volition. It has nothing to do with a self. If self is the bath water for you, then volition is the baby. ------------------------------------- Need I say more? :-) Ken H #69721 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:38 am Subject: Re: Teaching dhamma to children ? dhammanando_... Hi Christine, > When I am counselling a family after the unexpected death of a baby > or older family member - children under the age of 7 or 8 years are > not capable of understanding the concept of the permanency of death, > or even what death is. They have to be approached in a different way > to older children. There is a special literature of story books which > has grown up to cater to their abilities. Seven years is also give in the Milindapanha as the minimum age for a (human) child to be capable of awakening to the Dhamma (dhammaabhisamaya -- the Milindapanha's term for stream-entry): "The following is the reason, your majesty, for my saying that an infant, even if he were to practise well, could not attain to dhammaabhisamaya. If, your majesty, one under seven years of age could feel lust about things exciting to lust, hate about things exciting to hate, delusion about things exciting to delusion, could be infatuated by things that infatuate, could understand a wrong view, could distinguish between content and discontent, could think out wholesome and unwholesome, then might dhammaabhisamaya be possible to him. But the mind of one under seven years of age, your majesty, is powerless and weak, restricted, small, slight, obscure, and dull, whereas the unconditioned nibbaana element is important, weighty, wide-reaching, and extensive." Best wishes, Dhammanando #69722 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:46 am Subject: citta is dark nilovg Dear Scott, thank you very much for the excerpt. ------- Sujin: So that which sees is real so its a reality which doesn't have shape - no shape, no form at all. Whenever it arises it has to experience an object. And when it experiences the object through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body then we know the object of the citta which experienced it. For example, right now visible object is appearing but if there is no citta, even [if] there is visible object the visible object cannot appear. -------- N: As you see she stresses that nama has no shape or form, it cannot be seen or touched. It is in a way hidden. I had to consider what she meant by saying that citta is dark, but it is another way of saying that citta has no shape or form. We have to learn the difference between nama and rupa. Visible object appears more directly. But since it can appear we know that there must be an element that experiences it. -------- Sujin: So we can see that that which can experience an object is what we call vi~n~naana or citta or we don't have to call it anything it we know that the characteristic is not self because it arises and it falls away and that is it... ------ N: namas have characteristics and these we can learn without naming them or thinking about them. ------- S: Citta is that faculty that just experiences the object that's all. It cannot like, it cannot dislike, it cannot remember, it cannot be wholesome or unwholesome...if we understand the characteristic of citta which is different from cetasika...without theoretical knowledge can we know the difference between citta and cetasika - without intellectual understanding. ---- N: Intellectual understanding is a foundation but before the first vipassana ~naa.na we do not precisely know what nama is, let alone the difference between citta and cetasika. Citta is a faculty or indriya, a leader in its own field, manindriya. It clearly knows an object, it is the chief in knowing the object. But the cetasikas condition the citta to be kusala or akusala. --------- S: We don't talk about self, we don't talk about any name, but we just talk about that characteristic which can experience an object only. Like now, this cannot experience anything - the table - or hardness cannot experience anything but what is seeing right now? What is that reality which is seeing or which sees visible object right now? There must be that reality otherwise visible object cannot appear, sound cannot appear, the story or any concept cannot appear since there is that characteristic which can experience an object. ------ N: Reminders that nama and rupa are so different. We forget, don't we? ---------- S:And it is so dark because there is no shape, no form at all, right? Visible object is not dark, depending on the light, but that which experiences it is dark..." ------ N: When our eyes are open it seems that the world is light. This is visible object. Seeing and visible object arise and fall away, but it seems that the light stays all the time! That is due to thinking and a wrong interpretation of reality. This is deeply rooted. Even now: light, light, light. Thanks to your quote I considered more that citta is dark. Nina. #69723 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:12 am Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 3/19/07 5:03:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > ------------------------------------ > >Ken it seems to me that even when I write something accomodating, > straightforward, and unobjectionable by any reasonable Buddhist > standard, you look to disagree and argue. You must really enjoy that. > I do not. > > ------------------------------------- > > That's an interesting remark. It seems to me that all (or nearly all) > of your posts to DSG refer, either directly or indirectly, to the two > distinctly different perspectives that are promoted here. There is > the "no control" perspective, which sees formal meditation as a rite > or ritual, and there is the "popularly accepted" perspective, which > sees formal meditation as fundamental to the Path, and which sees the > no-control perspective as a doctrine of hopelessness and > helplessness. Am I wrong in thinking that this is always in the back > of your mind when you write a post to DSG? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, you are wrong. The topic is unavoidable when talking with you. And we do not connect in such conversations, making them pointless. You attribute positions to me that are not mine, and that is just tiresome. ---------------------------------------- I am not suggesting there > > would be anything wrong with that. I know it is in the back of my > mind whenever I write a post. > > In your previous post you wrote: > ------------------------------- > >Ken, you have correctly written "Whether we like it or not, > >anatta does mean there is no self to control the world, no self to > >decide which realities will arise, and no self to possess free will. > >There are only fleeting, impersonal conditioned namas and rupas. All > >else is imaginary." A bit more might be usefully said, though, I > >think The "fleeting, > >impersonal conditioned namas and rupas" - all or some of them - are > >what we take to be self. The notion of "personal self" is a broad > >one, but it includes in part a core that is a self-existent agent, a > >doer, thinker, feeler, and controller. It is true there is no so > such > >thing. > ---------------------------------- > > Am I wrong in thinking that this is a counter to one of the no- > controllers' key arguments? > ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, you are wrong. It is a clarification of the facts, explaining what IS the case when there seems to be a controller. It is not an atta-defense in the slightest. As I say, it is tiresome to attempt to fight straw men, and, I won't do it any longer. ------------------------------------ That is, to the argument that only namas –> > not sentient beings - ultimately experience objects? It seems to me > that you are dampening down this argument by maintaining that, > ultimately, neither concepts nor dhammas experience objects. ---------------------------------- Howard: I don't have a clue what you are talking about. Namas are exactly the various modes of experiencing or supports for experencing. You build imaginary sky castles and then serve as a one-man demolition crew. Give me a break, Ken! ------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------- > KH: >>But there are paramattha dhammas! Let's be careful not to > throw the > >baby out with the bath water. > > > > Howard: > > Was someone suggesting doing so? No one I know. > ------------------------------------------------- > > Maybe I am losing my mind, but I seem to remember that you, on > several occasions, have posited the ultimate non-existence of > conditioned dhammas. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I can't properly judge the health of your mental functioning, but what I have maintained is not that conditioned dhammas are nonexistent, a nihilist view, but that there is no self-existence (i.e., only contingent, dependent existence), the Buddhist view. I will not discuss this matter further, as I cannot make it clearer, and I will not try to. If you wish to understand my position, study the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. -------------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------- > KH: >>We should be mindful of the popular, > > >misleading belief that, one day (upon enlightenment), all > conditioned > >dhammas will be seen as illusory, ultimately non-existent and no > >different from concepts. That belief is *not* supported by the > texts. > > > Howard: > > I never said they were no different from concepts. In fact, I have > pointed out the difference on several occasions. I have also pointed > out that all conditioned dhammas are impermanent, insubstantial, and > dependently originated, and thus empty of self. But you don't seem to > care for that part too much. > --------------------------- > > Sorry if I have misrepresented you again, but haven't you > occasionally suggested that samsara (conditioned reality), when seen > as it truly is, is Nibbana? ------------------------------------------ Howard: You are changing the subject. I'm certainly not going to pursue this topic now. Briefly: No, they are not the same. As I see it it, nibbana is the nature of reality, and samsara is reality misperceived. Samsara is the state afflicted by the three poisons, and it can be brought to an end. Nibbana is beginningless, endless, unconditioned, unchanging, and beyond grasping by concept and language. At bottom, though, neither you nor I have a clue about nibbana, and time and effort is wasted in discussing it. My aim is the uprooting of defilements. Then whatever is will be seen as it is, ignorance will be gone, craving and attachment will be gone, suffering will be gone, and freedom will have been realized. Call that whatever you wish. ------------------------------------------- > > -------------------------------------------------- > KH: >>I can't resist commenting (yet again) on your loaded > phrase, "without > >own being." > > > > Howard: > > Comment all you will - it is true. That is what it means to be > dependently originated. I know you dearly want paramattha dhammas to > be self-existent, but they just are not. > --------------------------------------------------- > > They have their own characteristics. Some characteristics are shared > with other dhammas, while others belong uniquely to just one dhamma. > Therefore, dhammas are by any measure self-existent. > > Why, in your opinion, do I dearly want paramattha dhammas to be self > existent? Isn't it because only self-existent dhammas can provide a > plausible alternative to concepts – and, therefore, to formal > meditation? > > Can you see why I tend to disagree with your posts? > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I can. You have fixed views, you cling to them for dear life, and any language which threatens them threatens you. ---------------------------------------- Can you see why I > > always assume they relate to our one major point of departure (formal > practive)? I am quite happy with the way things are, by the way. I am > not objecting to it at all. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I am tired by it. It is pointless and fruitless. ---------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Cetana is willing/impulse. It is a mental activity that occurs. It, > along with other namas, constitutes volition. It has nothing to do > with a self. > If self is the bath water for you, then volition is the baby. > ------------------------------------- > > Need I say more? :-) ---------------------------------------- Howard: Hopefully not. ;-) ---------------------------------------- > > Ken H > =================== With metta, Howard #69724 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:55 am Subject: Non-Agency Terminology Revisited (Re: [dsg] citta is dark) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Scott) - I agree with what you say below and what you report Khun Sujin as saying, but not entirely with the manner in which it is said. It is that - and only that - that I address below. In a message dated 3/19/07 5:47:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear Scott, > thank you very much for the excerpt. > ------- > Sujin: So that which sees is real so its a reality which doesn't > have shape - no shape, no form at all. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Seeing is a reality without shape or form, being only an activity, the activity of mere knowing of an object. It is the knowing, the "casting of light", and not what is lit up. ----------------------------------- Whenever it arises it has to> > experience an object. And when it experiences the object through > eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body then we know the object of the > citta which experienced it. For example, right now visible object is > appearing but if there is no citta, even [if] there is visible object > the visible object cannot appear. > -------- > N: As you see she stresses that nama has no shape or form, it cannot > be seen or touched. It is in a way hidden. I had to consider what she > meant by saying that citta is dark, but it is another way of saying > that citta has no shape or form. We have to learn the difference > between nama and rupa. Visible object appears more directly. But > since it can appear we know that there must be an element that > experiences it. --------------------------------------------- Howard: There must be the activity of experiencing it. And there certainly is. -------------------------------------------- > -------- > > Sujin: So we can see that that which can > experience an object is what we call vi~n~naana or citta or we don't > have to call it anything it we know that the characteristic is not > self because it arises and it falls away and that is it... ------------------------------------------- Howard: Vi~n~nana is not some "thing" that experiences an object. It IS the experiencing of an object. That activity/event/operation of experiencing an object occurs and is real. It comes and goes. But it is not an entity that "does its thing" - it is the doing. ------------------------------------------- > ------ > N: namas have characteristics and these we can learn without naming > them or thinking about them. > ------- > > S: Citta is > that faculty that just experiences the object that's all. It cannot > like, it cannot dislike, it cannot remember, it cannot be wholesome or > unwholesome...if we understand the characteristic of citta which is > different from cetasika...without theoretical knowledge can we know > the difference between citta and cetasika - without intellectual > understanding. ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, it is the mere apprehending of an object, without any other functioning. ----------------------------------- > ---- > N: Intellectual understanding is a foundation but before the first > vipassana ~naa.na we do not precisely know what nama is, let alone > the difference between citta and cetasika. Citta is a faculty or > indriya, a leader in its own field, manindriya. It clearly knows an > object, it is the chief in knowing the object. But the cetasikas > condition the citta to be kusala or akusala. > --------- > S: We don't talk about self, we don't talk about any > name, but we just talk about that characteristic which can experience > an object only. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Characteristic of what? I think it's important to clarify this. The experiencing of an object in some manner, e.g., the mere knowing of it, or the feeling of it, or the recognition of it, is what a nama is - a mode of knowing. All namas are knowing activities, and they differ in modality. The differences among them are their individual characteristics. Seeing is characterized by knowing of sights, while hearing by knowing of sounds. Feeling is characterized by knowing of any sense-door object affectively, whereas sa~n~na is characterized by recognizing the object or marking it for future recognition. ---------------------------------------- Like now, this cannot experience anything - the table > > - or hardness cannot experience anything but what is seeing right now? > What is that reality which is seeing or which sees visible object > right now? > -------------------------------------- Howard: The seeing itself is the reality - that very activity. Don't look for more, for an underlying agent. That would be a type of self - a doer, and does not exist. -------------------------------------- There must be that reality otherwise visible object cannot> > appear, sound cannot appear, the story or any concept cannot appear > since there is that characteristic which can experience an object. > ------ > N: Reminders that nama and rupa are so different. We forget, don't we? --------------------------------------- Howard: Do we? Hardness does nothing. Knowing hardness, in any way, is an activity - it is a doing. They are far from similar. ------------------------------------- > ---------- > S:And it is so dark because there is no shape, no form at all, right? > Visible object is not dark, depending on the light, but that which > experiences it is dark..." > ------ > N: When our eyes are open it seems that the world is light. This is > visible object. Seeing and visible object arise and fall away, but it > seems that the light stays all the time! That is due to thinking and > a wrong interpretation of reality. This is deeply rooted. Even now: > light, light, light. > Thanks to your quote I considered more that citta is dark. > Nina. > ======================= With metta, Howard #69725 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:21 am Subject: Why Namas are Actings and Not Actors upasaka_howard Hi, all - Aside from the fact that an actor would be a sort of self, there is another good reason why namas should not be thought of as things that act: Suppose a citta were a thing that knows an object, vedana a thing that feels the object, and sa~n~na a thing that recognizes it. That is, suppose these are three actors. The citta actor only needs to be conscious. However, consider a particular vedana. In order for "it" to feel the object, "it" certainly has to know it! (That is immediate from the agency usage.) Without having it as a known object, "it" cannot feel it. Likewise, a particular sa~n~na (or recognizer), in order to recognize the object has to be conscious of it. Thinking of therse as three actors is really mistaken personification. But now, let's drop the "thing" talk - the agent/actor talk, and let us instead talk in terms of activities. A citta is merely being conscious of an object, a vedana is merely feeling of that object, and a sa~n~na is merely recognizing of it. There is no thing that knows nor is there a thing that feels nor is there a thing that recognizes. There are simply three activities: being conscious of an object, feeling it, and recognizing it, three co-occurring activities. There are no entities engaged in these activities, there are just the three activities. The activity of knowing is "the leader", because the other actions cannot occur without it occurring. With metta, Howard #69726 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:34 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Friends, There doesn't seem to be a paragraph #11, so here are 10 and 12: 10. 'And further, O king, Vessantara, the king of givers, thought thus: "It is by giving to him precisely what he asks for, that I shall be of service to the Brahman:" and therefore did he bestow upon him his wife and children. It was not, O king, out of dislike to them that he gave them away, not because he did not care to see them more, not because he considered them an encumbrance or thought he could no longer support them, not (in annoyance) with the wish of being relieved of what was not pleasant to him--but because the jewel treasure of omniscience was dear to him, for the sake of the insight of the Omniscient Ones, did he bestow that glorious gift,--immeasurable, magnificent, unsurpassed--of what was near and dear to him, greatly beloved, cherished as his own life, his own children and his wife! For it has been said, O king, by the Blessed One, the god of gods, in the Kariyaa Pitaka: "'Twas not through hatred of my children sweet, 'Twas not through hatred of my queen, Maddii, Thraller of hearts --not that I loved them less-- But Buddhahood more, that I renounced them all." 'Now at that time, O king, Vessantara, when he had given away his wife and children, entered the leaf hut, and sat down there. And heavy grief fell upon him distressed by his exceeding love for them, and his very heart 1 became hot, and hot breath, too much to find its way through the nose, came and went through his mouth, and tears rolled in drops of blood from his eyes. Such was the grief, O king, with which Vessantara gave to the Brahman his wife and children in the thought that his practice of giving should not be broken in upon. But there were two reasons, O king, why he thus gave them away. What are those two? That his practice of giving should not be interrupted was one; the other was that as a result of his so doing his children, distressed by living with him only on wild roots and fruits, should eventually be set free by their new master. [282] For Vessantara knew, O king: "No one is capable of keeping my children as slaves. Their grandfather will ransom the children, and so they will come back to me." These are the two reasons why he gave his children away to the Brahman. 12. 'And further, O king, Vessantara knew: "This Brahman is worn out, aged, well stricken in years, weak and broken, leaning on a stick, he has drawn near the end of his days, his merit is small, he will not be capable of keeping my children as slaves." Would a man be able, O king, by his ordinary power, to seize the moon and the sun, mighty and powerful as they are, keeping them in a basket or a box, to use them, deprived of their light, as plates?' 'Certainly not, Sir.' 'Neither, O king, could any one whatever keep in use, as his slaves, the children of Vessantara, who were to the world like the moon and the sun in glory. == to be continued. connie #69727 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:34 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (46) nichiconn Dear Friends, Bhaddaa, part three of six: Atha na.m thero aaha- "tayaa bahu.m pucchita.m, mayampi ta.m eka.m pa~nha.m pucchaamaa"ti. "Pucchatha, bhante"ti. Thero "eka.m naama kin"ti ima.m pa~nha.m pucchi. Ku.n.dalakesaa neva anta.m na ko.ti.m passantii andhakaara.m pavi.t.thaa viya hutvaa "na jaanaami, bhante"ti aaha. "Tva.m ettakampi ajaanantii a~n~na.m ki.m jaanissasii"ti vatvaa dhamma.m desesi. Saa therassa paadesu patitvaa, "bhante, tumhe sara.na.m gacchaamii"ti aaha. "Maa ma.m tva.m, bhadde, sara.na.m gaccha, sadevake loke aggapuggala.m bhagavantameva sara.na.m gacchaa"ti. Then the thera said to her, "You have asked much. We will ask you only one question." "Ask, venerable sir," she said. The thera asked this question: "What is just one?"* Ku.n.dalakesaa did not see an end or a beginning [to the question]. She was like one who has entered into darkness and said, "I do not know, venerable sir." "If you do not know that much, how can you know anything else?" he said and taught her the Doctrine. She fell at the thera's feet and said, "Venerable sir, I go to you as a refuge." "Don't come to me for refuge, Bhaddaa," he said. "Go for refuge to the Blessed One, the foremost individual in the world of [men and] devas." *RD notes: 'Eka.m naama ki.m? or more fully, 'What is that which is called (named) "one"?' Tho Jains do not appear to have been any more monistically or pantheistically inclined than the Buddhists, hence possibly her lack of ready reply. The systems she is said to have acquired cannot well have included the more esoteric and more jealously reserved Brahmanic lore. It is difficult otherwise to imagine her at such a loss, unless it was because of the extreme vagueness of the question. 'In the beginning there was One only.' . . . 'He is one, he becomes three . . . five,' etc. 'All things become one in praaj~naa,' and so on: - the oldest Upanishads give plenty of such answers. Conceivably she may have known this monism, but have seen no end or point in it, because, as a sincere Jain, she rejected it. Neither would the Apostle have wished for a Brahmanic reply, except as an occasion to be improved upon. He would be more interested in the analysis and classification of phenomena bearing on the ethical life. Thus, in the ancient catechism, the Khuddakapaatha, the question actually occurs: Eka.m naama ki.m? But the answer is, 'All beings are sustained by food.' Hence 'the point' really was, State any one fact true for the whole of any one class of things. (Cf. Ang. Nik., v. 50, 55.) and: In the note on p. 66, reference should have been made to the Viticcha-jaataka, No. 244, in the second volume of the Jaataka. Here the Buddha himself asks the question, Eka.m naama ki.m? whereupon the itinerant debater runs away! The birth-story is then told, the question being contra the theory of the Ding-an-sich. "Eva.m karissaami, bhante"ti saa saayanhasamaye dhammadesanaavelaaya.m satthu santika.m gantvaa pa~ncapati.t.thitena vanditvaa ekamanta.m a.t.thaasi. Satthaa tassaa ~naa.naparipaaka.m ~natvaa- "Sahassamapi ce gaathaa, anatthapadasa.mhitaa; eka.m gaathaapada.m seyyo, ya.m sutvaa supasammatii"ti.- Ima.m gaathamaaha. "I will do so, venerable sir," she said. In the evening, she went to the Teacher at the time for a discourse on the Doctrine, paid homage with the fivefold prostration, and stood on one side. The Teacher, realizing her mature knowledge, spoke this verse: Better than a thousand verses of meaningless words is one word of a verse that makes the one who hears it become calm. RD: 'Better than a thousand verses, where no profit wings the word, Is a solitary stanza bringing calm and peace when heard.' {Dhp.v.101} Gaathaapariyosaane yathaa.thitaava saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.3.1-54)- "Padumuttaro naama jino, sabbadhammaana paaraguu; ito satasahassamhi, kappe uppajji naayako. "Tadaaha.m ha.msavatiya.m, jaataa se.t.thikule ahu.m; naanaaratanapajjote, mahaasukhasamappitaa. "Upetvaa ta.m mahaaviira.m, assosi.m dhammadesana.m; tato jaatappasaadaaha.m, upesi.m sara.na.m jina.m. "Tadaa mahaakaaru.niko, padumuttaranaamako; khippaabhi~n~naanamagganti, .thapesi bhikkhuni.m subha.m. "Ta.m sutvaa muditaa hutvaa, daana.m datvaa mahesino; nipacca sirasaa paade, ta.m .thaanamabhipatthayi.m. At the end of the verse, just as she was standing there, she attained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. As it is said in the Apadaana: One hundred thousand aeons ago, the Conqueror and Leader named Padumuttara, who reached the far shore of all phenomena, was born. At that time, I was born in Ha.msavatii in the family of a wealthy merchant, gleaming with all kinds of jewels, and I enjoyed great happiness. I went to the Great Hero and heard the teaching of the Doctrine. Then faith arose and I went to the Conqueror for refuge. Then the One of Great Sympathy named Padumuttara placed a beautiful bhikkhunii as foremost of those of quick direct knowledge. When I heard that, I was delighted and gave a gift to the Great Sage. I fell down face forward at his feet and aspired to that position. "Anumodi mahaaviiro, bhadde ya.m tebhipatthita.m; samijjhissati ta.m sabba.m, sukhinii hohi nibbutaa. "Satasahassito kappe, okkaakakulasambhavo; gotamo naama gottena, satthaa loke bhavissati. "Tassa dhammesu daayaadaa, orasaa dhammanimmitaa; bhaddaaku.n.dalakesaati, hessati satthu saavikaa. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Tato cutaa yaamamaga.m, tatoha.m tusita.m gataa; tato ca nimmaanarati.m, vasavattipura.m tato. The Great Hero approved and said, "Bhaddaa, what you desire, all of that will succeed. May you be happy and gain quenching. One hundred aeons from now there will be a Teacher in the world, named Gotama through his lineage, a descendant of the Okkaaka clan. There will be an heir to his Doctrine, a legitimate offspring of the Doctrine named Bhaddaa-Ku.n.dalakesaa, a disciple of the Teacher." As a result of that virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. Passing away from there, I went to the Yaama realm. From there I went to the Tusita realm, and from there the Nimmaanarati realm; from there, the dwelling place of Vasavattii. === more to follow, connie #69728 From: Sobhana Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hi Scott, The way I understand conditions? The sutta gave an example for the conditions needed to build a fire: The old Buddhist simile of the sun, cow dung, and gem (gem is like a magnifying glass). Contact of sunlight, a magnifying glass, dried cow dung, and after some time you get fire. One cannot say that the new fire was stored in the cow dung, or in the sun, or in the magnifying glass. But when these things come together, we have a fire. The circumstances were favorable for the fire to appear (likewise, the results of kamma). The conditions needed for the eye-sense to see (arising of eye-consciousness): Must have contact between the eyes and the visible objects, sufficient lighting and proper attention on the object. When all these conditions come together, eye-consciousness arise. The conditions needed for Nibbana? Are the 7 factors of enlightenment considered “conditions”? "Bojjhanga! Bojjhanga! Is the saying, Lord. Pray, Lord, how far is this name applicable?" queried a monk. "Bodhaya samvattantiti kho bhikkhu tasma bojjhanga ti vuccanti" — "They conduce to enlightenment, monk, that is why they are so called," replied the Buddha. "Just as, monks, in a peaked house all rafters whatsoever go together to the peak, slope to the peak, join in the peak, and of them all the peak is reckoned chief: Even so, monks, the monk who cultivates and makes much of the seven factors of wisdom, slopes to Nibbana, inclines to Nibbana, tends to Nibbana." The seven factors are: Mindfulness (sati), Keen investigation of the dhamma (dhamma vicaya), Energy (viriya), Rapture or happiness (piti), Calm (passaddhi), Concentration (samadhi) and Equanimity (upekkha). So in order for the *anatta* to get enlightened, the 7 factors of enlightenment must come about (through accumulations of past perfections, by doing good deeds probably). This understanding is acceptable because if we keep doing good, one of these days our right conditions will arise for the anatta to get enlightened. J The only troubling thing is, anatta *cannot decide to do good* scene. So, if my anatta and your anatta *cannot decide to do good* then the conditions for Nibbana will never arise. Or it *may arise* due to some dumb luck!!! So you and I walk around in samsara, not being able to control anything, so how did some people get enlightened and some people are still ignorant? Those who got enlightened must have striked the Nibbanic lottery! Since we are here in DSG studying the dhamma, I think I have bought my Nibbana lottery ticket too. In confusion, Sobhana #69729 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:00 am Subject: Non-agency terminology revisited nilovg Hi Howard, thanks for your interest. --------- Sujin: So that which sees is real so its a reality which doesn't > have shape - no shape, no form at all. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Seeing is a reality without shape or form, being only an activity, the activity of mere knowing of an object. It is the knowing, the "casting of light", and not what is lit up. ----------------------------------- N: Seeing is not what is lit up, well said. -------- .... Visible object appears more directly. But > since it can appear we know that there must be an element that > experiences it. --------------------------------------------- Howard: There must be the activity of experiencing it. And there certainly is. Vi~n~nana is not some "thing" that experiences an object. It IS the experiencing of an object. That activity/event/operation of experiencing an object occurs and is real. It comes and goes. But it is not an entity that "does its thing" - it is the doing. ------------------------------------------- N: I understand your concern. But no need to be concerned when we know: each citta arises just for a moment and the cittas in a process have each their own place and yes, perform a function. This is fixed , niyama. Nobody can change the order of the arising of cittas in a process. There is no owner. You are concerned about function, in Pali kicca, from karoti (to do): what ought to be done. You use: activity: correct. > ------ > S: Citta is > that faculty that just experiences the object that's all. Howard: Yes, it is the mere apprehending of an object, without any other functioning. ----------------------------------- > S: We don't talk about self, we don't talk about any > name, but we just talk about that characteristic which can experience > an object only. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Characteristic of what? I think it's important to clarify this. The experiencing of an object in some manner, e.g., the mere knowing of it, or the feeling of it, or the recognition of it, is what a nama is - a mode of knowing. All namas are knowing activities, and they differ in modality. The differences among them are their individual characteristics. Seeing is characterized by knowing of sights, while hearing by knowing of sounds. Feeling is characterized by knowing of any sense-door object affectively, whereas sa~n~na is characterized by recognizing the object or marking it for future recognition. ---------------------------------------- Nina: this is good. Only one thing to add: you say: All namas are knowing activities, and they differ in modality. But what about cetasikas, such as dosa? Its characteristic is harshness. Can we call that a modality? But you would say: citta with dosa experiences the object in another way, in an unwholesome way and this is a modality. ---------- S: > What is that reality which is seeing or which sees visible object > right now? > -------------------------------------- Howard: The seeing itself is the reality - that very activity. Don't look for more, for an underlying agent. That would be a type of self - a doer, and does not exist. -------------------------------------- N: I do not think there is this misunderstanding. But also visible object is a reality. Sati can be aware of only one object at a time. We are, as beginners, not sure: is there sati, and of what is it aware? Cittas are so fast. Hard to tell whether the present object is seeing or visible object when we are still groping for sati and the difference between thinking (some very quick thinking even without words) and sati. quote:> N: Reminders that nama and rupa are so different. We forget, don't we? --------------------------------------- Howard: Do we? Hardness does nothing. Knowing hardness, in any way, is an activity - it is a doing. They are far from similar. ------------------------------------- N: important to clarify this. We all know that they are different, but if sati and pa~n~naa do not arise this is not directly known. At the first stage of insight it is directly known. An immense difference! That is why I said: we forget. When we are forgetful of nama and rupa we do not learn anything, we do not learn the difference. But, as Kh Sujin said: first the difference between the moment with sati and the moment without sati has to be known. When sati arises, only one reality appears through one of the six doors, only one dhamma. Hardness, or sound, or seeing or dosa etc. Usually we are forgetful, thinking of wholes, of stories. Is there not a difference when there is a short moment of *beginning* to know one characteristic? Not thinking of situations, people, houses etc. ? > ---------- Nina. #69730 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana TGrand458@... Hi Sobhana In a message dated 3/19/2007 9:33:42 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, shennieca@... writes: So in order for the *anatta* to get enlightened, the 7 factors of enlightenment must come about (through accumulations of past perfections, by doing good deeds probably). This understanding is acceptable because if we keep doing good, one of these days our right conditions will arise for the anatta to get enlightened. J The only troubling thing is, anatta *cannot decide to do good* scene. So, if my anatta and your anatta *cannot decide to do good* then the conditions for Nibbana will never arise. Or it *may arise* due to some dumb luck!!! TG: You are speaking as if Anatta were a "phenomena." Anatta is not a phenomena. Phenomena have no-self, but no-self is not a phenomena. Same with impermanence. Phenomena are impermanent, but Impermanence is not a phenomena. So you and I walk around in samsara, not being able to control anything, so how did some people get enlightened and some people are still ignorant? Those who got enlightened must have striked the Nibbanic lottery! TG: Things are not as willy-nilly as you make them out to be. There is effort as a component of mentality. There is attention, there is understanding, there is intention. These things combined are able to react to the influences around us. Because of impermanence, affliction, and no-self, there is the ability to understand these things. By understanding these things there is the ability to make an effort to overcome suffering. It is mere conditions yes, but conditions that unit in purpose to achieve a desired goal. Not paying careful attention vs paying careful attention is the difference between a mind living in ignorance or wisdom. Since we are here in DSG studying the dhamma, I think I have bought my Nibbana lottery ticket too. In confusion, Sobhana TG #69731 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why Namas are Actings and Not Actors TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 3/19/2007 7:22:58 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: But now, let's drop the "thing" talk - the agent/actor talk, and let us instead talk in terms of activities. A citta is merely being conscious of an object, a vedana is merely feeling of that object, and a sa~n~na is merely recognizing of it. There is no thing that knows nor is there a thing that feels nor is there a thing that recognizes. There are simply three activities: being conscious of an object, feeling it, and recognizing it, three co-occurring activities. There are no entities engaged in these activities, there are just the three activities. The activity of knowing is "the leader", because the other actions cannot occur without it occurring. TG: Nice and interesting post. I'm not sure if I'd call consciousness the leader or the follower...I'd probably call it the follower. Anyway, my idea is that all these things are just "reactors." They are indeed activities....activities that react to the conditions impinging/contacting them. "Their" arising is a mere reaction to the causes that forge "them." TG #69732 From: Sobhana Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hi TG, Thanks for your reply. Understanding arises, intentions arises, kusala and akusala citta arises all on their own accord. So Nibbana arises due to its own accord too without anyone controlling it. My confusion is: "why, how come" sometimes kusala citta arises and sometimes akusala citta arises? The answer is: because the conditions are right for kusala citta to arise, that's why it arises. Next question is: "how does" the conditions for kusala citta come about? *What controls the conditions* for kusala citta to come together so that kusala citta appears? Am I phrasing my questions wrongly? Sometimes the questions that are incorrectly put forward will not get the proper answers. I might have asked the wrong type of questions... But in your opinion, what is the answer to *how* and *why* is Nibbana attainable? Regards, Sobhana #69733 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:23 pm Subject: Rupas, Ch 3, no 4 nilovg Dear friends, Earsense is another one of the sense-organs. It is situated in the interior of the ear, “at a spot shaped like a finger-ring and fringed by tender, tawny hairs.... “ . Earsense is the rúpa which has the capability to receive sound. It is basis and door of hearing-consciousness. The “Visuddhimagga” (XIV, 38) gives the following definition: The ear’s characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for impact of sounds; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to hear. Its function is to pick up (an object) among sounds. It is manifested as the footing of ear-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to hear. Without earsense there cannot be hearing. The “Visuddhimagga” (XV, 39) states: “Ear-consciousness arises due to ear, sound, aperture and attention.” “Aperture” is the cavity of the ear. If one of these conditions is lacking hearing cannot arise. As to the other pasåda rúpas, smellingsense, tastingsense and bodysense, these are defined in the same way. Smellingsense is a rúpa situated in the nose. It is one of the conditions for smelling. The “Visuddhimagga”(XV, 39) states: “Nose-consciousness arises due to nose, odour, air (the element of wind or motion) and attention.” As to the element of wind or motion being a condition, we read in the “Atthasåliní” (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 315): ... the nose desires space, and has for object odour dependent on wind. Indeed, cattle at the first showers of rain keep smelling at the earth, and turning up their muzzles to the sky breathe in the wind. And when a fragrant lump is taken in the fingers and smelt, no smell is got when breath is not inhaled.... As to tastingsense, this is situated in the tongue and it is one of the conditions for tasting. The “Visuddhimagga” states in the same section: “Tongue-consciousness arises due to tongue, flavour, water and attention.” Also the element of water or cohesion plays its part when there is tasting. We read in the “Atthasåliní” (same section, 315) about the element of water being a condition for tasting: ... Thus even when a bhikkhu’s duties have been done during the three watches of the night, and he, early in the morning, taking bowl and robe, has to enter the village, he is not able to discern the taste of dry food unwetted by the saliva.... ****** Nina. #69734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:23 pm Subject: Letters on Vipassana 10, no 4 nilovg Dear friends, Through the development of right understanding of nåma and rúpa we shall see the danger of akusala and the benefit of kusala. We shall come to see the disadvantages of being born again and again. At this moment we do not see that life is dukkha. We are searching for dukkha so long as we are attached to nåma and rúpa. We can develop more understanding of the dukkha in our life by studying what the scriptures and the commentaries state about this subject. Even when one's understanding of dukkha is only theoretical it is beneficial to study the different aspects of dukkha. The study of the Dhamma in detail is a condition for the growth of paññå. Through the development of satipatthåna there can gradually be direct understanding of the truth. The commentary to the "Book of Analysis" (Vibhanga), the "Dispeller of Delusion", “Sammohavinodaní”, elaborates on the different aspects of dukkha.We read in the section on the "Classification of the Truths" (Ch IV, Saccavibhaòga) about the many kinds of dukkha. We read about dukkha, suffering (93): Herein, bodily and mental painful feeling are called "suffering as suffering" (dukkha-dukkha, intrinsic suffering), because of their individual essence, because of their name and because of painfulness. Bodily and mental pleasant feeling are called "suffering in change" (viparinåma-dukkha) because of being the cause of the arising of pain through their change. Indifferent feeling and the remaining formations of the three planes are called "suffering in formations" (sankhåra-dukkha) because of their being oppressed by rise and fall... Sankhåra dhammas, conditioned dhammas, which arise and fall away cannot be a refuge, thus they are dukkha. Under the section about birth we read that birth is dukkha. The commentary explains that birth is suffering since it is the basis for the arising of suffering. Birth is the foundation of many kinds of dukkha when it occurs in the unhappy planes, and it also is the foundation of dukkha in happy planes. In the human plane there is suffering rooted in the descent into the womb. The commentary describes the suffering of the unborn being because of heat of the mother's body, because of cold when his mother drinks cold water, because of all the pains when his mother gives birth. In the course of an existence there is pain in one who kills himself, who practises self-torture, who through anger does not eat or who hangs himself, or who undergoes suffering through the violence of others. ****** Nina. #69735 From: Sobhana Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:04 pm Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello Howard, Ken, all, How to harmonize the perspectives between the sutta that says, you have the “ability to think and decide whether the actions done by body, speech and thoughts are good or bad” and the abhidhamma that says, whether it is “kusala or akusala citta arises due to various combinations of conditions”? Please correct my if I’m wrong, as far as I know this harmonizing between the sutta and abhidhamma cannot be done. I can’t even think of a middle path where conventional reality and ultimate reality can come together in concordance. Both are realities, one is conventional and the other is ultimate. I guess the ultimate one is a more superior reality. I have always had faith in anatta. Actually to be honest, I thought I was an expert in anatta! lol. I loved to argue with my husband, a ‘god-fearing-catholic’ who obviously does not believe in anatta. But now I’m slowly realizing that I don’t know anatta at all. I have come to accept that some people do understand anatta in a different way than me, it is OK and I don't argue with them because I know that my level of understanding of the dhamma is not that high level yet; they may have already achieved some stages of enlightenment, therefore their understanding of anatta is different from mine (me=puthujjana). I also know that I cannot force my understanding of anatta on someone else who is not a Buddhist. Just those questions of *why* and *how* our conditions and contacts become different if there is no one controlling them? Warm regards, Sobhana #69736 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana ken_aitch Hi Sobhana, --------------------- Ken H: I hope you will agree that sila dana and bhavana are dhammas (cittas accompanied by cetasikas). They arise purely by conditions – totally independent of a self of any kind. Sobhana: Yes, I agree to a certain extent, our lives have been conditioned by past kamma. The past kamma cannot be changed but is our future conditioned as well? ------------------------ I am not sure if you have entirely understood my point. The world, as the Buddha taught it, is a small collection of namas and rupas arising momentarily and falling away at one of the six doors. That is all! According to the Buddha, anything else can only be, at best, a conventional designation referring to that strange, nama-and-rupa world. Whenever we talk about "our lives" (for example), we are doing one of two things: Either we are referring to the momentary world described by the Buddha, or we are mistakenly thinking there is something in addition to that momentary world. ----------------------- S: > Do the condition that are thrown at a person decides whether that person will attain Nibbana or go to Niraya/Naraka/woeful realm and there is absolutely nothing, nothing at all, that person can do about it? ------------------------ What person would that be? Do you see what I mean? I need to know if you are referring to the Buddha's world (of presently arisen namas and rupas) or the "conventionally known" world (of people and places and activities that persist in time). Otherwise, we will be talking at cross purposes. ---------------------------------- S: > The Noble 8fold path is like the pathway/highway to Nibbana and the sutta is like a road map that guides us there. For example, take a human being to be like a vehicle, a car. The car that travels on the highway is subjected to road conditions, weather conditions and accuracy of the road map (sutta), so whether this car will arrive at its destination (Nibbana) is conditioned by the factors above. If the navigator of the car reads the wrong road sign or follows the wrong map, the car might go to Niraya/Naraka instead or it will get lost in samsara. Therefore, is there a way to make sure that the navigator of the car does not read the wrong road sign or get lost on the highway? Or is the car purely subjected to "conditions" that will take it to whatever destination the "conditions" take it to? The conditions of the road may be bumpy with many obstacles and hindrances but no matter how long the drive is, is there a way/method to make sure this car gets to Nibbana and never go to Niraya or go round and round about in samsara? In abhidhamma, the answer is NO, right? ------------------------ I have to know what you are thinking and what you are asking before I can suggest an answer that will make sense. If, as I have been saying, there are only the presently arisen namas and rupas, it would be incongruous to talk about doing something or going somewhere, wouldn't it? However, there is a way in which we can talk about a "path to Nibbana" and, at the same time, understand the world as just momentary dhammas. That is the Abhidhamma. When we understand the Abhidhamma, we understand that the suttas are teaching exactly the same thing – even though many of them are using conventional language that refers (when understood superficially) to people and places and things to do. ----------------------- S: > Actually, in one sutta story that I've read, I don't remember the sutta name or number. One day while the Buddha was walking in town with Ananda, Buddha saw an old couple begging on the streets and Buddha stopped for awhile. Ananda asked the Buddha why did Buddha stopped and Buddha said, "`Look at that old couple, poor and begging on the street, they used to be rich people but because they were lazy when they were young and they did not know how to run their parent's business, they became broke. If they were to be hard-working they would have been rich and also if they were to study the sutta and dhamma when they were young, they could at least have attained Sotapanna today instead of being beggers". That's how I remember the sutta, it is not word by word. So, the Buddha said "if they had been hard-working, and if they have been following the dhamma". Why didn't the Buddha just tell Ananda, "The poor couple has been conditioned to be beggars"? Why did the Buddha tell Ananda that the old couple made poor choices when they were in their younger days? Aren't choices conditioned?? --------------------- Yes, I think you are on the right track! Choices are conditioned. Poor choices are conditioned primarily by ignorance (lack of understanding). If the dhammas that appear *now* are not enlightenment dhammas then they are a "poor" alternative. Why have they arisen in that poor state? Because, in the past, the company of wise friends was not sufficiently sought, the Buddha's teaching was not diligently listened to and wisely considered, and right understanding was not sufficiently put into practice. Have I expressed that clearly enough? Poor, elderly people (as referred to in the sutta) are not paramattha dhammas; they are concepts. But they can be understood in terms of paramattha dhammas. Ken H #69737 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:20 am Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi, Sobhana (and Ken) - In a message dated 3/19/07 3:06:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, shennieca@... writes: > Hello Howard, Ken, all, > > How to harmonize the perspectives between the sutta that says, you have the > “ability to think and decide whether the actions done by body, speech and > thoughts are good or badâ€? and the abhidhamma that says, whether it is “kusala > or akusala citta arises due to various combinations of conditionsâ€?? ----------------------------------------- Howard: What sutta is that, BTW, and what Abhidhammic source? The first sentence is an instance of conventional speech with its speaking of "you" and "speech" (and even "thoughts", IMO), but what it says is (more or less) true. That sentence could, with incredible difficulty, be translated into a huge corpus of speech referring pretty much only to paramattha dhammas and which would mean rather much the same thing. The second sentence has a different meaning from the first. The second says that mindstates, and their moral character (wholesome or unwholesome), are determined by conditions. The first sentence, on the other hand, addresses the (related) matter of *deciding* which kamma is wholesome and which unwholesome, asserting that this *is* decidable. That is only more or less true, for deciding what actions are good and what actions are not is not clear cut, and typically the decision process is less than definitive. The second sentence is a simpler one and happens to be entirely true. They are two different sentences, the first more "conventional" and, coincidentally, not entirely true, and the second, less "conventional", and, coincidentally, perfectly true. There is no reason to look for harmony or disharmony between them - they are simply two different sentences. -------------------------------------- > > Please correct my if I’m wrong, as far as I know this harmonizing between > the sutta and abhidhamma cannot be done. I can’t even think of a middle path > where conventional reality and ultimate reality can come together in > concordance. > > Both are realities, one is conventional and the other is ultimate. I guess > the ultimate one is a more superior reality. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Reality is reality. There are not two realities. There are two extreme poles of speech mode, though: Conventional (or figurative or abbreviational) speech and ultimate (or literal) speech. If we had to depend only on so called ultimate speech, we'd die before we could fully make even a few points. Without the abbreviational usage of conventional speech, communication would be close to impossible. Actually, what we call "ultimate speech" is always only more or less literal, for all speech is a matter of convention. All speech falls short of ultimacy. ---------------------------------------- > > I have always had faith in anatta. Actually to be honest, I thought I was > an expert in anatta! lol. I loved to argue with my husband, a ‘ > god-fearing-catholic’ who obviously does not believe in anatta. But now I’m slowly > realizing that I don’t know anatta at all. > > I have come to accept that some people do understand anatta in a different > way than me, it is OK and I don't argue with them because I know that my > level of understanding of the dhamma is not that high level yet; they may have > already achieved some stages of enlightenment, therefore their understanding of > anatta is different from mine (me=puthujjana). I also know that I cannot > force my understanding of anatta on someone else who is not a Buddhist. > > Just those questions of *why* and *how* our conditions and contacts become > different if there is no one controlling them? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Now we get to the crux. What would such a "one" be? What would it *need* to be? All the knowings, feelings, understandings, tastes, sights, sounds, likings, dislikings, fearings, trustings, distrustings, and so on are facts and require no additional "self". There is willing, there is aversion, there is equanimity. There are all the elements of all the five khandhas - arising, ceasing, and interacting. They serve as conditions for other phenomena. Every arising contributes to future arisings. At the center of this process of conditioning is cetana/willing, the chief fabricating operation - the primary sankhara and the central "motive force" for the rolling on of empty phenomena. It is that willing that draws us in to think we see a doer, an actor, a decider, a controller, but willing is just one more impersonal and empty operation whose function is, itself, entirely conditioned. ---------------------------------------------- > > Warm regards, > Sobhana > ======================= With metta, Howard #69738 From: Sobhana Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello TG, Howard, Ken, all, Ken H: If the dhammas that appear *now* are not enlightenment dhammas then they are a "poor" alternative. Why have they arisen in that poor state? Because, in the past, the company of wise friends was not sufficiently sought, the Buddha's teaching was not diligently listened to and wisely considered, and right understanding was not sufficiently put into practice. Sobhana: In a conventional way, it is acceptable to say “the company of wise friends was not sufficiently sought” but in reality, it is not our choice whether we want to be with wise friends or not, it is due to our conditions. Some poor kids who live in the ghetto or slumps, don’t they want wise friends too? It is difficult for them to be with wise-friends if they were born in the ghetto and grew up in the ghetto, they would probably be in the company of gun-totting friends instead. I’m sorry, I’m just being stubborn. I believe Anatta in reality there is actually no-control eventhough sometimes I try to deny it. When I was in university, many, many years ago my friends and I used to go for meditation retreats and sometimes we discuss our meditation experience. I’ve heard some of them say, “because there is an intention that arise, that’s why the hand moves” and I’ve heard, “during walking meditation, there is no physical sense of the leg, there is only the feeling of pressure, hard or soft, hot and cold and movement of the winds under the feet, only the intention of moving, feeling of warm air, etc. etc in a cycle” (not word by word). So, from their experiences that I’ve heard, I know that they are explaining anatta. There is no “I” that is walking, there is no “I” who’s hand is moving, physical actions are only a sequence and series of nama-rupa paramatthadhammas happening. Buddha said the dhamma is profound, hard to understand, cannot be explained in logical terms. Yep, totally. May all of us attain the bliss of Nibbana. Warm regards, Sobhana #69739 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:50 pm Subject: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana ken_aitch Hi Sobhana, Thank you for this excellent post. ----------------- S: > How to harmonize the perspectives between the sutta that says, you have the "ability to think and decide whether the actions done by body, speech and thoughts are good or bad" and the abhidhamma that says, whether it is "kusala or akusala citta arises due to various combinations of conditions"? ------------------ You will have noticed that many suttas ask questions along the lines of, "How does a monk (a wise person) practise the things that ordinary people practise?" An obvious example is the Discourse to Sigala, which addresses the ancient custom of worshiping the six directions. The Buddha noticed Sigala doing this, and told him how the six directions might properly be observed. As I was saying, there are many examples of, `How does a monk do this; how does a monk do that,' and some are less obvious, and more deeply philosophical, than others. I think we can safely say that the entire Dhamma describes the profoundly different way in which a monk (as distinct from an ordinary person) understands the world. ------------------- S: > Please correct my if I'm wrong, as far as I know this harmonizing between the sutta and abhidhamma cannot be done. I can't even think of a middle path where conventional reality and ultimate reality can come together in concordance. ------------------- In most (but not all) of the suttas, the Buddha uses a conventional manner of teaching. This does not mean he taught a conventional reality. Nor does it mean he taught both a conventional and an ultimate reality. There is only one reality – ultimate reality. "Conventional reality" is a misnomer. It might be better to call it, "the way in which the world is conventionally understood." Another way of putting it would be to say, "When the Buddha referred to "people" and other seemingly permanent (lasting) things, he did so by way of convention. The use of the words, "I, you, myself, yourself, himself, herself. . ." was a convention by which the Buddha actually referred to the ultimately real world of the five khandhas." -------------------------------- S: > Both are realities, one is conventional and the other is ultimate. I guess the ultimate one is a more superior reality. -------------------------------- I hope I can change your mind on the first part. :-) ------------- S: > I have always had faith in anatta. Actually to be honest, I thought I was an expert in anatta! lol. I loved to argue with my husband, a `god-fearing-catholic' who obviously does not believe in anatta. But now I'm slowly realizing that I don't know anatta at all. ------------- We all have an intellectual idea (to varying degrees) of what anatta means. But I think we can safely assume that none of us here at DSG has directly confirmed that dhammas bear the inherent characteristic, anatta. That confirmation (direct knowledge) comes only at the most advanced stages of satipatthana and vipassana. ------------------- S: > I have come to accept that some people do understand anatta in a different way than me, it is OK and I don't argue with them because I know that my level of understanding of the dhamma is not that high level yet; they may have already achieved some stages of enlightenment, therefore their understanding of anatta is different from mine (me=puthujjana). I also know that I cannot force my understanding of anatta on someone else who is not a Buddhist. ------------------- That is certainly true! Some Buddhists (including one or two here at DSG) do not believe in anatta at all! They prefer Bhikkhu Thanissaro's heterodoxy, which regards anatta as just a meditator's technique for calming the mind (a technique for putting stressful thoughts about self out of the meditator's mind while he/she is trying to meditate). (!!!) Other Buddhists (including many here at DSG), while not going so far as to believe the Buddha never taught anatta, do not believe the Buddha taught Abhidhamma. I don't want to sound disrespectful, but I suspect many people simply want to interpret the Dhamma in a way that confirms their pre- existing beliefs. --------------------------- S: > Just those questions of *why* and *how* our conditions and contacts become different if there is no one controlling them? --------------------------- Wouldn't it be stranger still if there *were* someone controlling them? Why would that person be doing such a bad job? :-) Ken H #69740 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:27 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika gazita2002 Hello Rob, .......... > > Hello RobM, > > > > thank you. there has been something bothering me about this > > process, and it feels like something is organising this. Like the > > kamma 'knows' that death is imminent!!! > > > > I put this down as wrong understanding on my part and I know that > > the Buddha has mentioned something about madness if one tries to > > work out how kamma works. > > > > So, for the present moment, I will accept that this is just the > > way it is - the death process - and leave it at that. > > thank you again for your help. > > ===== > > I understand your uneasiness. Let me take a stab at making you feel > more comfortable. > > According to the Abhidhamma, the "investigating" mental state follows > the "receiving" mental state in a sense-door process. But how does > an "investigating" mental state "know" that it is its turn to arise? > Is there some force that is queuing up all these mental states so > that they arise in the proper order? No. Everything arises because of > conditions. One of the conditions for the arising of > an "investigating" mental state is the falling away of a "receiving" > mental state. > > According to the Abhidhamma, death arises when one of four conditions > arise: > 1) the expiration of a life-span > 2) the expiration of the productive kamma supporting an existence > 3) the simultaneous expiration of a life-span and the productive > kamma supporting an existence > 4) the intervention of a destructive kamma > > As an analogy, an oil lamp is extinguished when: > 1) the wick is exhausted > 2) the oil runs out > 3) the wick is exausted and the oil runs out simultaneously > 4) a gust of wind blows out the flame > > So the advent of death arises naturally based on one of these four > conditions. The arising of one of these four conditions is a cause > for the arising of the death process. The arising of one of these > four conditions allows a kamma which will drive rebirth to arise. > > So everything depends on conditions. The specific conditions may be > too complex for us to understand, but what is important is that we > view the process as natural, not requiring a "self" to drive it. azita: Yes, of course, no self, just conditions that drive the whole mass of elements. I agree, the specific conditions are mostly too complex to understand, and it is beneficial to remember this fact. Its good to have dhammafriends like you to remind me of this. > > Thousands of years ago, our ancestors lived in caves. The weather was > an important factor in their lives and it was not understood. Because > weather was not understood, our ancestors personified the weather and > created "weather gods". Many non-productive rituals and even > sacrifices were made to appease these imaginary weather gods. Today, > we understand that weather is a completely natural phenomena. Nobody > really understands the details of how weather really works - it is > beyond the capability of our most powerful computers to accurately > predict the weather. Even though we do not understand it in detail, > we know that weather is a natural phenomena and we do not waste time > with rituals. Over the millenia, science has allowed us to abandon > many of the "gods" produced by the minds of men. The Buddha tells us > to abandon the "god of self" and see the mind as a sequence of > natural phenomena; everything arising because of conditions. Just as > we do not completely understand the details of the weather, we do not > completely understand the workings of the mind. > > We are not Abhidhammikas, we are meterologists!! :-) > > Does that make you feel more comfortable? azita: a wonderful analogy thank you Rob. I do feel more comfortable about these conditions that bring about the death process. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #69741 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana buddhatrue Hi Sobhana, Welcome to DSG. You ask many interesting questions- and I like your sense of humor! ;-)) Sobhana: So you and I walk around in samsara, not being able to control anything, so how did some people get enlightened and some people are still ignorant? Those who got enlightened must have striked the Nibbanic lottery! James: Those who became enlightened followed the Noble Eightfold Path, regardless of if they are Buddhas, Silent Buddhas, or Arahants. Following the Noble Eightfold Path doesn't require a Self anymore than going to McDonald's and buying a Big Mac requires a Self. Sobhana: Since we are here in DSG studying the dhamma, I think I have bought my Nibbana lottery ticket too. James: Or you may have just bought your ticket to the Funny Farm. ;-)) Sobhana: In a conventional way, it is acceptable to say "the company of wise friends was not sufficiently sought" but in reality, it is not our choice whether we want to be with wise friends or not, it is due to our conditions.Some poor kids who live in the ghetto or slumps, don't they want wise friends too? It is difficult for them to be with wise-friends if they were born in the ghetto and grew up in the ghetto, they would probably be in the company of gun-totting friends instead. James: The Buddha did teach that noble friendship is the entirety of the dhamma, but he also taught that we all must be islands unto ourselves. Even poor kids who live in the ghetto are not completely limited by their circumstances. If they desire the company of wise friends but cannot find them, they can strike out on their own. From the Dhammapada: 61. Should a seeker not find a companion who is better or equal, let him resolutely pursue a solitary course; there is no fellowship with the fool. Metta, James #69742 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 138 and Tiika gazita2002 Hello Nina, thank you. The reality is kamma snuffs out one life and kamma creates another one - very sobering thoughts indeed. When I contemplate this, all of the things that I hold near and dear and all the things I feel I should be doing - like assignments for work or fixing the leak in the roof - kind of pale into insignificance, but only briefly unfortunately. In the very next moment, I'm thinking about something else! In fact, death is really no different to now just arising and falling of namas and rupas. Good reminders, but most people dont want to talk this way. Have you noticed that?:-) Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Azita, > To me it is very meaningful. It depends on kamma how long one lives. > As we read in the Sutta: there are being with long lifespan and short > lifespan... > It is kamma that produces a new life after this life. To me it is all > about cause and effect. > One kamma has finished with this life, and then another kamma takes > over, producing another life. And as we have read, the accumulated > defilements are the 'attendants' of kamma. Driven by the power of > defilements one goes to a new destiny. > Nina. > > Op 14-mrt-2007, om 3:34 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > > > thank you. there has been something bothering me about this > > process, and it feels like something is organising this. Like the > > kamma 'knows' that death is imminent!!! > #69743 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:02 pm Subject: Re: Conditions and Nibbana scottduncan2 Dear Sobhana, Thanks for your reply (excuse the elisions): S: "The way I understand conditions...But when these things come together, we have a fire. The circumstances were favorable for the fire to appear...Must have contact between the eyes and the visible objects...When all these conditions come together, eye-consciousness arise." Scott: There are conditioning states (paccayadhammaa), conditioned states (paccayuppannadhammaa), and the force (paccayasatti) whereby the conditioning state 'conditions' the conditioned state. In these ways, dhammaa are interdependent. Your examples show conditionality but there is some imprecise use of terms and this is complex. Better slow down and take it one step at a time. I'm not an expert here. Paccaya, as taken from the Pali Text Society Pali English Dictionary: "Paccaya...literally resting on, falling back on, foundation; cause, motive etc...support, requisite, means, stay...reason, cause, ground, motive, means, condition...paccaya came to be distinguished from hetu as the genus of which hetu was the typical, chief species. I. e. paccaya became synonymous with our 'relation,' understood in a causal sense, hetu meaning condition, causal antecedent, and 23 other relations being added as special modes of causality..." Scott: This gives the sense in which paccaya is meant. S: "So in order for the *anatta* to get enlightened, the 7 factors of enlightenment must come about...anatta *cannot decide to do good* scene. So, if my anatta and your anatta *cannot decide to do good* then the conditions for Nibbana will never arise. Or it *may arise* due to some dumb luck...So you and I walk around in samsara, not being able to control anything, so how did some people get enlightened and some people are still ignorant? Those who got enlightened must have striked the Nibbanic lottery!" Scott: The above is not right, I'm afraid. 'Anatta' is not a thing. You are simply replacing the word 'person' with the word 'anatta' and this is not correct. There is no 'my anatta' or 'your anatta'. Please consider Nyanatiloka's definition, for starters. I pasted a large section from his Buddhist Dictionary, apologies for the length but it is quite clear: "Anattaa: No-self, egolessness, soullessness, impersonality, absence of identity, is the last of the 3 universal characteristics of existence ti-lakkhana. This anattaa doctrine, which only is taught by a Buddha, teaches that neither within the bodily, material and mental phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything at all, that in the ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing, real & same, ego-entity, identity, soul, self or independently existing substance. This is the central core doctrine of Buddhism, crucial for understanding the message & method of Buddhism. It is the only really specific Buddhist doctrine, with which the entire structure of the Buddhist teaching stands or falls. All the remaining Buddhist doctrines may, more or less, be found in other philosophic systems and religions, but the anattaa doctrine has been clearly and unreservedly taught only by the Buddha, wherefore the Buddha is known as the anattaa?-vaa?di or 'Teacher of impersonality'. Whosoever has not penetrated this universal impersonality of all existence, and does not comprehend that in reality there exists only this continually self-consuming & self-referring process of arising and passing away of bodily, material and mental phenomena, and that there is no separate ego-entity or stable and same core neither within nor outside this process, he will not be able to understand Buddhism, i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths sacca, in the right light. He will think that it is his ego, his personality, that experiences suffering, his personality that performs good and evil actions and will be reborn according to these actions, his personality that will enter into Nibbaa?na, his personality that walks on the 8-fold path. This is the fatal 'personalist-view' sakkaa?ya-ditthi and self-deception maana 'I Am' that keep beings wandering in Samsaara. Thus it is said in Vis.M XVI: Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; Actions are, but no actor is ever found; Nibbaana is, but no being exists that enters it; The path is, but no traveler is seen. Whosoever does not understand the origin of conditionally arisen phenomena, and does not comprehend that all the actions are conditioned by ignorance, greed and hate, he thinks that it is an ego or self that understands or does not understand, that acts or causes to act, and that comes into existence at rebirth. He believes there exists an identity 'I' that has the sense-contact, that feels, desires, becomes attached, continues and at rebirth again enters a new existence as the same being... Vis.M XVII, 117..." Scott: Enough for now. Can you see the way you were misunderstanding 'anattaa'? I hope this helps you. Go slowly. Sincerely, Scott. #69744 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:36 pm Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/19/2007 2:06:32 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, shennieca@... writes: Hello Howard, Ken, all, How to harmonize the perspectives between the sutta that says, you have the “ ability to think and decide whether the actions done by body, speech and thoughts are good or badâ€? and the abhidhamma that says, whether it is “kusala or akusala citta arises due to various combinations of conditionsâ€?? Hi Sobhana They are actually in harmony IMO. The suttas are being pragmatic and practical ... while Abhidhamma is being technical and theoretical. Imagine it this way...the suttas are speaking to people in a common sense fashion. Abhidhamma is speaking to aloof scholars. That's not exactly right but generally that's what it amounts to. TG #69745 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/19/2007 1:02:13 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, shennieca@... writes: Thanks for your reply. Understanding arises, intentions arises, kusala and akusala citta arises all on their own accord. So Nibbana arises due to its own accord too without anyone controlling it. Hi Sobhana None of these things arise "on their own accord." They all arise based on "other conditions." They are "resultants." No time right now but I'll look at the rest of your e-mail later. TG #69746 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:08 pm Subject: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana buddhatrue Hi Ken H. and Sobhana, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > You will have noticed that many suttas ask questions along the lines > of, "How does a monk (a wise person) practise the things that > ordinary people practise?" An obvious example is the Discourse to > Sigala, which addresses the ancient custom of worshiping the six > directions. The Buddha noticed Sigala doing this, and told him how > the six directions might properly be observed. > > As I was saying, there are many examples of, `How does a monk do > this; how does a monk do that,' and some are less obvious, and more > deeply philosophical, than others. I think we can safely say that the > entire Dhamma describes the profoundly different way in which a monk > (as distinct from an ordinary person) understands the world. James: The Buddha teaches the Singalovada Sutta to Singala the householder in the same manner he teaches all of his other suttas to monks, in the third-person narrative: And the Exalted One spoke as follows: "Inasmuch, young householder, as the noble disciple (1) has eradicated the four vices in conduct,1 (2) inasmuch as he commits no evil action in four ways, (3) inasmuch as he pursues not the six channels for dissipating wealth, he thus, avoiding these fourteen evil things, covers the six quarters, and enters the path leading to victory in both worlds: he is favored in this world and in the world beyond. Upon the dissolution of the body, after death, he is born in a happy heavenly realm. (1)"What are the four vices in conduct that he has eradicated? The destruction of life, householder, is a vice and so are stealing, sexual misconduct, and lying. These are the four vices that he has eradicated."…." The Buddha teaches this way because he teaches by example, not by pedantic lecturing. > > ------------------- > S: > Please correct my if I'm wrong, as far as I know this > harmonizing between the sutta and abhidhamma cannot be done. I can't > even think of a middle path where conventional reality and ultimate > reality can come together in concordance. > ------------------- > > In most (but not all) of the suttas, the Buddha uses a conventional > manner of teaching. This does not mean he taught a conventional > reality. Nor does it mean he taught both a conventional and an > ultimate reality. James: Actually, the Buddha didn't teach any kind of reality. As he said, he only taught suffering and the path leading to the ending of suffering. There is only one reality – ultimate > reality. James: If there is only one reality then it should just be called "Reality", not "Ultimate Reality". That's like calling our planet Earth, "Ultimate Earth". ;-)) > > That is certainly true! Some Buddhists (including one or two here at > DSG) do not believe in anatta at all! They prefer Bhikkhu > Thanissaro's heterodoxy, which regards anatta as just a meditator's > technique for calming the mind (a technique for putting stressful > thoughts about self out of the meditator's mind while he/she is > trying to meditate). (!!!) James: I don't think that this is an accurate summary of Thanissaro's position. Could you quote the thesis statement in which he proposes this? > > Other Buddhists (including many here at DSG), while not going so far > as to believe the Buddha never taught anatta, do not believe the > Buddha taught Abhidhamma. James: NO WAY!! IMPOSSIBLE!! ;-)))))) > > I don't want to sound disrespectful, but I suspect many people simply > want to interpret the Dhamma in a way that confirms their pre- > existing beliefs. James: Or they know how to do historical research. Metta, James #69747 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:58 pm Subject: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > As I was saying, there are many examples of, `How does a monk do > this; how does a monk do that,' and some are less obvious, and more > deeply philosophical, than others. I think we can safely say that the > entire Dhamma describes the profoundly different way in which a monk > (as distinct from an ordinary person) understands the world. I would also like to point out the first sutta the Buddha taught, to demonstrate that the Buddha was not simply "describing" an experience, but also explaining a course of action as well: "As long as my knowledge of seeing things as they really are, was not quite clear in these three aspects, in these twelve ways, concerning the Four Noble Truths,3 I did not claim to have realized the matchless, supreme Enlightenment… 3. As the previous paragraphs indicate, there are three aspects of knowledge with regard to each of the Four Noble Truths: 1. The knowledge that it is the Truth (sacca-ñana). 2. The knowledge that a certain function with regard to this Truth should be performed (kicca- ñana). 3. The knowledge that the function with regard to this Truth has been performed (kata-ñana). The twelve ways or modes are obtained by applying these three aspects to each of the Four Noble Truths." Unfortunately, Nina describes kicca-nana with regards to the Fourth Noble Truth in this manner: "As regards the fourth Noble Truth, the way leading to the end of dukkha, we should have the firm understanding that the development of satipatthana is the only way leading to this goal. We should understand the difference between right view and wrong view. When we are really convinced that there is no other way but the development of satipatthana, we shall not deviate from the right Path. Thus, we should not follow after the past nor desire for the future, we should be aware of any reality appearing now." http://www.abhidhamma.org/India7.html So, the Eightfold Path has been turned into a one-fold path. (On second thought, it is pointless to be arguing this. I am wasting my time. Laters.) Metta, James #69748 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:13 pm Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/19/2007 10:00:24 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: So, the Eightfold Path has been turned into a one-fold path. (On second thought, it is pointless to be arguing this. I am wasting my time. Laters.) Metta, James Yep. LOL TG #69749 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana TGrand458@... Hi Sobhana In a message dated 3/19/2007 1:02:13 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, shennieca@... writes: My confusion is: "why, how come" sometimes kusala citta arises and sometimes akusala citta arises? The answer is: because the conditions are right for kusala citta to arise, that's why it arises. Next question is: "how does" the conditions for kusala citta come about? *What controls the conditions* for kusala citta to come together so that kusala citta appears? TG: Kusala influences, such as contact with the Buddha's teaching and paying attention to it, results in Kusala citta. Am I phrasing my questions wrongly? Sometimes the questions that are incorrectly put forward will not get the proper answers. I might have asked the wrong type of questions... But in your opinion, what is the answer to *how* and *why* is Nibbana attainable? TG: By following the eightfold path, diligently taking the actions to develop insight and overcome ignorance/suffering. Nibbana is the result of implementing the appropriate conditions. By understanding nature, the mind can harmonize with it. No-self is a "technical fact" due to conditionality. This does not mean you give up making an effort. No, the opposite is needed...a Promethean effort! The final words of the Buddha... "all things are impermanent, strive tirelessly/diligently!" You might ask..."who is making the effort?" The answer is... conditions are making the effort...due to kusala influences such as the Buddha's teaching. Regards, Sobhana TG #69750 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:40 pm Subject: Goodwill Encore! bhikkhu5 Friends: Universal Friendliness (Mettâ) Outshines All!!! The Buddha said: May all creatures, all breathing things, all beings everyone without exception, experience joy & good fortune only. May they not fall into any harm! Anguttara Nikaya II, 72 Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer! Sutta Nipata I, 8 For one who deliberately & aware Fully develops Universal Friendliness Fading away of clinging is realized, All chains are worn down & broken! Itivuttaka 27 More Metta: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Metta.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Friendliness_Frees.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/One_BIG_Family.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_Good_Friend.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Blazing_Friendliness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Selfless_Friendship_is_Sweetest.htm Goodwill Encore! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69751 From: Sobhana Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hi TG, all, TG: No-self is a "technical fact" due to conditionality. This does not mean you give up making an effort. No, the opposite is needed...a Promethean effort! The final words of the Buddha... "all things are impermanent, strive tirelessly/diligently!" You might ask..."who is making the effort?" The answer is... conditions are making the effort...due to kusala influences such as the Buddha's teaching. Sobhana: Very nice, I like that... :) Abhidhamma is like a surgeon dissecting the nama-rupa for analysis and for a worldling like me studying it can become scary and repulsive, you know what I mean? I'll stick to my sutta studies for now. The sutta is easy to understand. The stories in the sutta are about people, about their views, problems, questions and confusions and Buddha always give good answers. :) The abhidhamma is hard to understand or imagine because it cannot be "perceived" by most people (I believe) because it purely explains the intricacy of the mind and matter. It is like reading the building blocks of our mind and it's not for everyone. I'll continue 'trolling' DSG for a while and hope to learn more things. :) Thanks for the advice, TG. Warm regards, Sobhana #69752 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (39) sarahprocter... Hi Connie, James & all, --- connie wrote: > James: I especially like the way Mahaa-Moggallaana describes the putridness > of > the body to the prostitute because she is so enamoured with the body. <...> Connie:> I just like the cold shower routine. Life's no more desireable than a > piece of excrement on the fingertip, sense pleasures "enjoyable only > through a pervesion of perception like the adornments of a madman", etc. > But for now, I'm running up for another piece of peanut butter fudge. > > peace, > connie > > p.s. check out Ubbarii: > www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/u/ubbarii.htm > I call my motorbike Piglet after her (not to mention making fun of the > HOGs) .... S: Just got round to checking :-)). Accumulations!! For those who didn't check before, I'll make it easy for you: "1. Ubbarī.-A princess. In the time of Kakusandha she was a hen. Having heard a monk repeat a formula of meditation, she was born as a royal princess and named Ubbarī. Seeing a heap of maggots in the privy, she meditated thereon and entered the first jhāna and was born in the Brahma-world. In the time of Gotama Buddha she was reborn as a sow in Rājagaha, and the Buddha, seeing her, smiled and related her past to Ananda. Later she was born in the royal household in Suvannabhūmi, then, in succession, in a horse-dealer's house in Suppāraka and in a mariner's household in Kāvīra. Then she was reborn in a nobleman's house in Anurādhapura, and again in the village of Bokkanta in South Ceylon, as the daughter of a householder named Sumana. She was called Sumanā, after her father. When her father moved to the village of Mahāmuni in Dīghavāpi, Lakuntaka Atimbam, prime minister of Dutthagāmani, met her and married her, and she went to live in Mahāpunna. Having recollected her past births from some words uttered by the Elder Anula of Kotipabbata, she joined the Order of Pañcabalaka nuns. At Tissamahārāma she heard the Mahā Satipatthāna Sutta and became a Sotāpanna. Later, having heard the āsīvisopama Sutta in Kallaka-Mahāvihāra, she attained arahantship. On the day of her death she related her story, first to the nuns and then in the assembly, in the presence of the Elder Mahā Tissa of Mandalārāma. DhA.iv.46ff." ***** Metta, Sarah p.s Connie - do you have a pic of yourself with Piglet for the album? Also, Mom for another S.O., especially now she's joining in of a sort? ======== #69753 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Question to Ask sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Howard, Herman, James & all, --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Hello Howard, Herman, all, > > This is worth discussing. I can understand how, believing that > Nibbaana is annihilation, many beings simply seek to 'make merit' to > gain a comfortable rebirth. > > This is very long ~ apologies all - I had to type the text out of > Bhikkhu Bodhi's Anthology of Discourses from the Paali Canon "In the > Buddha's Words' p. 317/8/9 (ISBN 0-86171-491-1) I hope it can be a > reference for continuing the discussion. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > IX,5 The Goal of Wisdom. <.....> S: I've only now read through it. As you say, Chris, it would be a good reference for further discussion, especially the first section. If any of you would care to start a 'Nibbana Corner' quoting one paragraph (or even half a paragraph) at a time, I think that would be a good way to go. It's relevant to mnay of the nibbana and extinguishing of fire discussions here. Metta, Sarah p.s Thx for typing it out for us, Chris! ======== #69754 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:11 pm Subject: Daana Corner (23) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “The Motivation of Giving” Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The Motivation for Giving The suttas record various motives for exercising generosity. The Anguttara Nikaya (A.iv,236) enumerates the following eight motives: 1. Asajja danam deti: one gives with annoyance, or as a way of offending the recipient, or with the idea of insulting him. [5] 2. Bhaya danam deti: fear also can motivate a person to make an offering. 3. Adasi me ti danam deti: one gives in return for a favor done to oneself in the past. 4. Dassati me ti danam deti one also may give with the hope of getting a similar favor for oneself in the future. 5. Sadhu danan ti danam deti: one gives because giving is considered good. 6. Aham pacami, ime ne pacanti, na arahami pacanto apacantanam adatun ti danam deti: "I cook, they do not cook. It is not proper for me who cooks not to give to those who do not cook." Some give urged by such altruistic motives. 7. Imam me danam dadato kalyano kittisaddo abbhuggacchati ti danam deti: some give alms to gain a good reputation. 8. Cittalankara-cittaparikkarattham danam deti: still others give alms to adorn and beautify the mind. Favoritism (chanda), ill will (dosa) and delusion (moha) are also listed as motives for giving. Sometimes alms are given for the sake of maintaining a long-standing family tradition. Desire to be reborn in heaven after death is another dominant motive. Giving pleases some and they give with the idea of winning a happy frame of mind (A.iv, 236). But it is maintained in the suttas (A.iv,62) that alms should be given without any expectations (na sapekho danam deti). Nor should alms be given with attachment to the recipient. If one gives with the idea of accumulating things for later use, that is an inferior act of giving. If one gives with the hope of enjoying the result thereof after death, that is also an inferior act of giving. The only valid motive for giving should be the motive of adorning the mind, to rid the mind of the ugliness of greed and selfishness. [Note 5: Though the PTS translation reads "one gives alms on one's own accord," the accuracy of this translation is questionable. The sutta seems to record motives for giving in ascending order of refinement. If the PTS translation is accepted, the order is disturbed. Moreover, asajja is the gerund of asadeti, which means to strike, offend, assail, insult.] “The Manner of Giving” will be in next post. Han #69755 From: "dsgmods" Date: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:46 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (33) dsgmods Dear Connie & all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > Dear Friends, > part one of: Ubbiritheriigaathaava.n.nanaa / The commentary on the verses > of Therii Ubbirii -- ... S: Ubbirii, not to be confused with Ubbarii, the sow! Ubbirii became a queen of Kosala after the birth of her daughter. However, the little girl ran around continuously and died. Ubbirii grieved and went to the cemetery every day. One day she went to see the Buddha who told her that 84,000 of her daughters with the same name had been cremated in the same place. Then we read: ... >Thus the Doctrine taught by the Teacher > served [to develop] her knowledge as a consequence of the discourse. She > began [developing] insight. Because of the beauty of the Teacher's > discourse and because of her attainment of the prerequisites, just as she > was standing there, she eagerly practised insight and through the paths, > one after the other, was established in the highest fruition state of > Arahatship. > ====== [>eva.m satthaaraa dhamme desite desanaanusaarena ~naa.na.m > pesetvaa vipassana.m aarabhitvaa satthu desanaavilaasena attano ca > hetusampattiyaa yathaa.thaataava vipassana.m ussukkaapetvaa > maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa aggaphale arahatte pati.t.thaasi.] .... S: Of course, as the text stated earlier, she had performed great merit in previous lives. However, only in this life did she develop the insight and attain all the stages of enlightenment, one after the other 'just as she was standing there'. No time to go to the forest, sit cross-legged or anything else for her. Of course, the Buddha knew exactly what she needed to hear, starting with the reminder about the loss of so many, many daughters before, so that she could listen to the Dhamma discuourse without being overwhelmed by grief. As she went on to say, the dart of craving was plucked out which had produced the pain in her mind: .... > 53. Today I (saajja = saa ajja) have my dart plucked out > (abbuu.lhasallaaha.m) means: today I (saa aha.m ajja) have the dart of > craving drawn out (uddha.ta-ta.nhaa-sallaa), and after that I am without > hunger, quenched. The Sage means: the omniscient Buddha, and the nine > divisions of the supramundane Doctrine that is comprised of the [four] > paths, the [four] fruition states, and quenching taught by him, and the > Order of those called the group of eight types of noble persons > established in that [Doctrine] because of the linking of these and because > of the destruction of all the misery of rolling on. [They are] a refuge > (sara.na.m), a protection (le.na.m), a shelter (taa.na.m) a support > (paraaya.nan). I go [to them] (upemi), I go (upaggacchaami), I am awake > [to] (bujjhaami), and I resort (sevaami) [to them]. That is the meaning. > Here ends the commentary on the verses by Theri Ubbirii. > ===== ..... S: Wonderful reminders. May we the darts be plucked out! I really appreciate reading about the very different accumulations of the Sisters. Very different circumstances, different attainments of jahna and so on, but for all, the darts were completely plucked out. Metta, Sarah ========== #69756 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (33) sarahprocter... oops! Again this was meant to be from my personal email account. S. --- dsgmods wrote: > Dear Connie & all, #69757 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:06 am Subject: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > They prefer Bhikkhu > > Thanissaro's heterodoxy, which regards anatta as just a meditator's > > technique for calming the mind (a technique for putting stressful > > thoughts about self out of the meditator's mind while he/she is > > trying to meditate). (!!!) > > James: I don't think that this is an accurate summary of Thanissaro's > position. Could you quote the thesis statement in which he proposes > this? > Hi James, Have a look at the article, "No Self or Not Self:" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html I have outlined my objections to Thanissaro's teachings in message #34782. You might like to tell me what you think of it. Ken H #69758 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Why Namas are Actings and Not Actors nilovg Hi Howard, If we replace thing by dhamma it can alleviate your concerns as to people believing in entities. A dhamma arises because of the appropriate conditions, it has no owner, nobody creates it. Seeing is only a dhamma, so are feeling, sa~n~naa, etc. We may say this, or just have intellectual understanding of this fact, but what really is important: pa~n~naa that directly realizes the presently appearing dhamma *as a dhamma*. This is a development that takes a long time. Many defilements are in the way. We need all the perfections to go along this long, long way. I heard this morning about fire on our head, that this is a exhortation to viriya. But it does not mean that we should hurry with lobha to have more sati and do particular things so that sati and pa~n~naa will arise. No 'us' who can do anything. Firm sa~n~naa is the proximate cause of sati, but this is not merely remembering names and terms. We should understand that what appears now through the eyes is dhamma. Usually when hardness appears we know this but it is known by an underlying idea of self. Sincerity is needed to detct this. When there is not yet sufficient understanding of what dhamma is, there are no conditions for sati. When samma-sati arises we need not ask someone else whether this is sati or only thinking. Nina. Op 19-mrt-2007, om 14:21 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: There is no thing that knows nor is there a thing that feels nor is there a thing that recognizes. > There are simply three activities: being > conscious of an object, feeling it, and recognizing it, three co- > occurring > activities. There are no entities engaged in these activities, > there are just > the three activities. The activity of knowing is "the leader", > because the other > actions cannot occur without it occurring. #69759 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:03 am Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana nilovg Hi TG, You can imagine that you have me here :-)) I shall avoid long debates, but allow me to give you one quote from the Abhidhamma to show that the Abhidhamma deals with the cittas of daily life. The Book of Analysis (Vibhanga, Chapter 17, 832) gives a very revealing list of the objects on account of which pride and conceit can arise: ( Pride of birth; pride of clan; pride of health: pride of youth; pride of life; pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being respected; pride of prominence; pride of having adherents; pride of wealth; pride of appearance; pride of erudition; pride of intelligence: pride of being a knowledgeable authority; pride of being (a regular) alms collector; pride of being not despised; pride of posture (bearing); pride of accomplishment; pride of popularity: pride of being moral; pride of jhana; pride of dexterity: pride of being tall; pride of (bodily) proportion; pride of form; pride of (bodily) perfection... All these objects can be a source of intoxication and conceit and we should consider them in daily life, that is why they are enumerated. Nina. Op 20-mrt-2007, om 3:37 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > the suttas are speaking to people in a common sense > fashion. Abhidhamma is speaking to aloof scholars. That's not > exactly right > but generally that's what it amounts to. Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:06 am Subject: Visuddhimaggga XVII, 140 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimaggga XVII, 140. Intro: In the previous section we read about someone in an unhappy plane of existence who is reborn in a happy plane. In this section we read about someone in a happy plane who has a happy rebirth. Kusala kamma of the sense sphere produces rebirth as a human or rebirth in a deva plane. Ruupaavacara kusala kamma and aruupaavacaara kusala kamma produce rebirth in the relevant ruupa-brahmaplanes and aruupa- brahmaplanes. ----------- Text Vis.140: [From happy to happy destiny.] In the case of one in a happy destiny who has stored up blameless kamma, when he is lying on his death-bed, his blameless kamma according as it has been stored up, or its sign, comes into focus in the mind door. For it is said, 'Then [the good deeds he did in the past] ... cover him [and overspread him and envelop him]' (M.iii,171), and so on. And that applies only in the case of one who has stored up blameless sense-sphere kamma. But in the case of one who has stored up kamma of the exalted spheres only the sign of the kamma comes into focus. --------- N: If the person who is about to die continued to develop jhaana and his skill in jhaana did not decline, then there are conditions for the last javanacittas to experience a sign of kamma, that is, the meditation subject of mahaggata kamma, kamma which is ruupajhaana or aruupajhaana. The Tiika adds to the expression ‘only the sign of kamma’, that because this is the object of the (relevant mahaggata) kamma, it is the object of the mahaggata vipaakacitta (the rebirth-consciousness of the next life). The vipaakacitta which is the rebirth-consciousness of the next life has the same object as the kusala jhaanacitta that produced it. --------- Text Vis.: Then next to the cognitive series of impulsions ending in registration, or of simple impulsions, that arose contingent upon that [kamma or its sign], death consciousness arises making the life- continuum's objective field its object. ----------- N: The Tiika explains the expression ‘simple impulsions’. In the case of jhaanacitta there are no tadaaramma.nacittas. The latter arise only in the case of cittas of the sense-sphere which experience sense objects. Jhaanacittas do not experience sense objects. The Tiika explains that with regard to the last javanacittas preceding ruupaavacara or aruupaavacara vipaakacitta, these have to be considered as near to the mahaggata vipaakacitta. This is the rebirth-consciousness of the next life. Jhaanacittas do not produce result in the same life but only in a next life as rebirth- consciousness, bhavangacitta and cuti-citta. --------- Text Vis.: When it has ceased, rebirth-linking consciousness arises contingent upon that same kamma or sign of kamma that had come into focus, and it does so located in the happy destiny, being driven there by the force of defilements that have not been cut off. This is the kind of rebirth-linking that has a 'past' or a 'not-so- classifiable' object and comes next to death consciousness with a 'past' object. ---------- N: The Tiika explains that the not-so-classifiable object pertains to the rebirth-consciousness that is ruupaavacara vipaakacitta and also the aruupaavacaara vipaakacittas of the first and third stage of aruupajhaana. The Tiika adds that the aruupaavacaaravipaakacittas of the second and fourth stage of aruupajhaana have a past object. As we have seen, (Vis. Ch X, 24-45), there are four stages of aruupa- jhaana: the Sphere of Boundless Space, the Sphere of Boundless Consciousness, the Sphere of Nothingness and the Sphere of Neither Perception nor Non-Perception. There are four types of aruupaavacara kusala cittas which produce as rebirth-consciousness the corresponding aruupaavacara vipaakacittas that experience the same object as the aruupaavacara kusala cittas that produced them. The aruupaavacara kusala cittas of the first stage and the third stage have concepts as objects and they produce aruupaavacara vipaakacittas that have the same concepts as objects, called: not-so- classifiable objects. The aruupa-jhaanacitta of the second stage has as meditation subject the ‘base consisting of boundless consciousness’, which is the jhaanacitta that occurred previously with boundless space as object and which has fallen away and is thus past. Evenso, the aruupa- jhaanacitta of the fourth stage, the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception, has as object the jhaanacitta that occurred having ‘nothingness’ as meditation subject and that has fallen away. Thus, the fourth aruupa-jhaanacitta also has a past object. These two aruupaavacara kusala cittas produce as results the aruupaavacara vipaakacittas which arise as rebirth-consciousness in the next life. Since the aruupaavacara kusala cittas that produced them experienced a past object, it is also said of the vipaakacittas that were produced by them as rebirth-consciousness, that they have a past object. --------- Conclusion: The Visuddhimagga text refers to the Baalapa.n.ditasutta (M III, 129) where we read: This sutta reminds us of the value of kusala kamma. Even if akusala kamma has an opportunity to produce an unhappy rebirth in the next life, kusala kamma is never lost and it may have an opportunity in the future to produce a happy rebirth. The Visuddhimagga gives many details about the possibilities of rebirth in unhappy and in happy planes. This reminds us that no rebirth is to be preferred even to rebirth in the highest brahmaplanes. So long as we are in the cycle of birth and death the future is uncertain. ******* Nina. #69761 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:06 am Subject: details on the senses, addition to Rupas. nilovg Dear friends, The commentaries use many similes to explain the senses. We should go deeper into these texts in order to understand the purpose of the similes and explanations. Otherwise we do not profit to the full from the texts. The eye is compared to and it is not bigger than a louse head. . Louse head, goat's hoof, those are not attractive images. The Expositor (311) states as to the tongue:like the upper part of a torn lotus leaf. Not beautiful. These similes help us to see the foulness of the body, one of the meditation subjects for all occasions. And what is the purpose of that meditation? To remind us that what we take for our beautiful body are only rupas that are non-self. To see the body in the body. And this is repeated for each of the senses:< It has assistance, consolidation, and maintenance in the way aforesaid; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door...> The rupas that are the senses arise in a group of rupas, they need the assistance of the other rupas in that group, they are conditioned. ****** Nina. #69762 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana sarahprocter... Hi Sobhana, --- Sobhana wrote: > Abhidhamma is like a surgeon dissecting the nama-rupa for analysis.... <...> > I'll continue 'trolling' DSG for a while and hope to learn more > things. :) .... S: You may also like to browse in 'Useful Posts' (messages from the archives set aside by the mods): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ - scroll down to 'Useful Posts'. Once there, you might like to take a look under particular headings, such as: 1. Anatta2 - no control? 2. Control 3. Effort (right) 4. Abhidhamma-beginners 5. Sutttas vs Abhidhamma (or it may be the other way round...) 6. Satipatthana-now! 7. Free-will ***** If you come across any past post of particular interest (or which you particularly disagree with!!), do re-quote it or respond if you feel inclined to do so. Meanwhile, I think all your current discussions are very interesting and usefu and I like the way you give your sincere responses. Don't give up with the discussions or your reflections on the Abhidhamma! Metta, Sarah ========= #69763 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:58 am Subject: Re: Citta is dark. scottduncan2 Dear All, This portion of a discussion, suggested by connie, also relates: Kh. Sujin (2001-10-23-e): "Even when one closes one's eyes. Because you see that people think that reality must be quite different from the daily reality but its not at all. Exactly the same. But the pa~n~na grows and knows and discerns inside the true nature of reality as it is. Because each moment is short. No difference whether [it] is seeing or hearing or thinking but when there is not the developed understanding, when its not clear, when its not precise, there is doubt about it and doubt is a reality. So no matter [if] its doubt or anything pa~n~na can see it as dhamma. It fits the meaning from the beginning. Everything is dhamma. We have to come to realise by our own understanding. Start from the beginning: everything is dhamma. "And we can see that the rebirth consciousness and the bhavanga - the citta which follows the birth consciousness - must be very dark. As dark as when there is no seeing process; the same because hardness can be experienced even when there is no seeing, so how dark it is. So the pa~n~na can understand the quality or the characteristic of citta. It doesn't have any shape, no form, nothing else in it at all only the faculty of experiencing an object. It is the indriya, the leader, or the chief of experience. Not like cetasika which feels or remembers. So when we take everything out of this world, what is left? Citta. It knows. "...When ruupa does not appear, citta is there, and at that moment the characteristic is seen by pa~n~na which knows the characteristic of citta as citta, not as cetasika. So one lives in darkness, very, very dark, and only one spot that can make the world bright or light. Just only that. Eye-base only. The other ruupaa cannot condition the appearing of visible object or light. So, in reality, one lives in darkness with the idea or thinking about what is experienced through the other door-ways. And what is darker? Aviija. Doesn't know anything at all... (2001-10-23-f)"...Now, the maano-dvaara of thinking is hidden. Only the five door-ways appear. But when its the pa~n~na which can discern the true nature of realities, maano-dvaara appears as dark as it is with some flash of different object at a time. By then the meaning of dhaatu or element is very clear. And is one ready to give up the idea of self?...Because one must be very brave and very courageous and very cheerful to face the reality as just different reality at a time. And the pa~n~na experiences or citta experiences. "...because its so dark - nothing - so its very frightening when its not the developed pa~n~na. So one knows one's self whether one has the developed level of pa~n~na or not yet to be alone, and its not 'I', but only the element which can experience an object. No friends, no family, no one...So when there is the idea of self, one can try every way to gain Nibbaana because one doesn't know that even the sa.nkhaara dhammaa, the conditioned reality - the reality that is conditioned and falls away - is not Nibbaana. But pa~n~na has to know this before attaining the Four Noble Truths. Even the first Truth. Are we ready?" Sincerely, Scott. #69764 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:53 am Subject: The Source of Dukkha upasaka_howard Hi all - The Buddha, in the second noble truth, pointed to tanha as the (primary) condition for suffering. There is an inclination among some Buddhists, however, to treat all conditioned dhammas as leading to suffering on their own and as requiring abandonment not only in the sense of relinquishing attachment to them, but in the sense of annihilating them. This tendency leads to seeing our very senses and sense objects as fetters. But the Buddha's lieutenant, Ven. Sariputta, has explicitly denied this last attribution of fetter status in the Kotthita Sutta. I copy that sutta here for your convenience. ________________________________ SN 35.191 Kotthita Sutta To Kotthita Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu Copyright © 1997 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1997 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. Once, Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Maha Kotthita were living near Varanasi, at Isipatana in the Deer Park. Then Ven. Maha Kotthita, in the late afternoon, left his seclusion and went to Ven. Sariputta. On arrival, he exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Now tell me, friend Sariputta, is the eye the fetter of forms, or are forms the fetter of the eye? Is the ear... Is the nose... Is the tongue... Is the body... Is the intellect the fetter of ideas, or are ideas the fetter of the intellect?" "No, my friend. The eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. The ear is not the fetter of sounds... The nose is not the fetter of aromas... The tongue is not the fetter of flavors... The body is not the fetter of tactile sensations... The intellect is not the fetter of ideas, nor are ideas the fetter of the intellect. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. "Suppose that a black ox and a white ox were joined with a single collar or yoke. If someone were to say, 'The black ox is the fetter of the white ox, the white ox is the fetter of the black' — speaking this way, would he be speaking rightly?""No, my friend. The black ox is not the fetter of the white ox, nor is the white ox the fetter of the black. The single collar or yoke by which they are joined: That is the fetter there." "In the same way, the eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. The ear is not the fetter of sounds... The nose is not the fetter of aromas... The tongue is not the fetter of flavors... The body is not the fetter of tactile sensations... The intellect is not the fetter of ideas, nor are ideas the fetter of the intellect. Whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. "If the eye were the fetter of forms, or if forms were the fetter of the eye, then this holy life for the right ending of stress & suffering would not be proclaimed. But because whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them is the fetter there, that is why this holy life for the right ending of stress & suffering is proclaimed. "If the ear were the fetter... "If the nose were the fetter... "If the tongue were the fetter... "If the body were the fetter... "If the intellect were the fetter of ideas, or if ideas were the fetter of the intellect, then this holy life for the right ending of stress & suffering would not be proclaimed. But because whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them is the fetter there, that is why this holy life for the right ending of stress & suffering is proclaimed. "And through this line of reasoning one may know how the eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye, but whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. The ear is not the fetter of sounds... The nose is not the fetter of aromas... The tongue is not the fetter of flavors... The body is not the fetter of tactile sensations... The intellect is not the fetter of ideas, nor are ideas the fetter of the intellect, but whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. There is an eye in the Blessed One. The Blessed One sees forms with the eye. There is no desire or passion in the Blessed One. The Blessed One is well-released in mind. "There is an ear in the Blessed One... "There is a nose in the Blessed One... "There is a tongue in the Blessed One... "There is a body in the Blessed One... "There is an intellect in the Blessed One. The Blessed One knows ideas with the intellect. There is no desire or passion in the Blessed One. The Blessed One is well-released in mind. "It is through this line of reasoning that one may know how the eye is not the fetter of forms, nor are forms the fetter of the eye, but whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there. The ear is not the fetter of sounds... The nose is not the fetter of aromas... The tongue is not the fetter of flavors... The body is not the fetter of tactile sensations... The intellect is not the fetter of ideas, nor are ideas the fetter of the intellect, but whatever desire & passion arises in dependence on the two of them: That is the fetter there." ------------------------------------------- I would like to repeat the following portion of the foregoing, because, in my opinion, it dramatically and directly points out what requires extinction, and what does not, in order for there to be release: There is an eye in the Blessed One. The Blessed One sees forms with the eye. There is no desire or passion in the Blessed One. The Blessed One is well-released in mind. "There is an ear in the Blessed One... "There is a nose in the Blessed One... "There is a tongue in the Blessed One... "There is a body in the Blessed One... "There is an intellect in the Blessed One. The Blessed One knows ideas with the intellect. There is no desire or passion in the Blessed One. The Blessed One is well-released in mind. With metta, Howard #69765 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana buddhatrue Hi Sobhana, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Sobhana, > Sobhana: Since we are here in DSG studying the dhamma, I think I have > bought my Nibbana lottery ticket too. > > James: Or you may have just bought your ticket to the Funny Farm. ;-)) I hope that you realize I was just joking here. I was thinking about it and I realized that you are new here so you may not be able to appreciate/understand my sense of humor yet. My jokes have many layers of meaning- and first impressions are usually mistaken. Anyway, I want to assure you that you couldn't find a better group on the Internet than DSG. It is such a fantasic group that you should be careful not to let it become a substitute for real practice. As TG so wonderfully wrote to you, the Buddha's path requires great, great effort. That effort involves following the Noble Eightfold Path, not spending all of your time posting to and reading the posts of DSG. (Hmmmm...am I giving you advice or myself?? ;-))* Metta, James *another joke of mine with layers of meaning. :-) #69766 From: han tun Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Source of Dukkha hantun1 Dear Howard, Thank you very much. Very well presented! I often consider sense objects as fetters. Your post and the sutta clearly state that our senses and sense objects are not fetters, but whatever desire & passion (chanda-raaga) arises in dependence on them is the fetter. Respectfully, Han #69767 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:11 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (46) nichiconn Offline Dear Friends, Bhaddaa, part four of six: "Yattha yatthuupapajjaami, tassa kammassa vaahasaa; tattha tattheva raajuuna.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m. "Tato cutaa manussesu, raajuuna.m cakkavattina.m; ma.n.daliina~nca raajuuna.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m. "Sampatti.m anubhotvaana, devesu maanusesu ca; sabbattha sukhitaa hutvaa, nekakappesu sa.msari.m. "Imamhi bhaddake kappe, brahmabandhu mahaayaso; kassapo naama gottena, uppajji vadata.m varo. "Upa.t.thaako mahesissa, tadaa aasi narissaro; kaasiraajaa kikii naama, baaraa.nasipuruttame. Wherever I was reborn, thanks to that deed, I ruled there as chief queen of the kings [of those deva realms]. Passing away from there, in human lives, I ruled as the chief queen of a king who was a wheel-turning monarch and of kings ruling a country. I enjoyed prosperity among devas and men. I was happy everywhere, journeying on for many aeons. In this auspicious aeon, the Brahmaa Kinsman of Great Fame, Kassapa by name, the Best of Speakers, was born. At that time, the Great Sage's servant was the ruler named Kikii, who was the king of Kaasi in the great city Baraa.nasii. "Tassa dhiitaa catutthaasi.m, bhikkhudaayiiti vissutaa; dhamma.m sutvaa jinaggassa, pabbajja.m samarocayi.m. "Anujaani na no taato, agaareva tadaa maya.m; viisavassasahassaani, vicarimha atanditaa. "Komaaribrahmacariya.m, raajaka~n~naa sukhedhitaa; buddhopa.t.thaananirataa, muditaa satta dhiitaro. "Sama.nii sama.naguttaa ca, bhikkhunii bhikkhudaayikaa; dhammaa ceva sudhammaa ca, sattamii sa"nghadaayikaa. "Khemaa uppalava.n.naa ca, pa.taacaaraa aha.m tadaa; kisaagotamii dhammadinnaa, visaakhaa hoti sattamii. I was his fourth daughter, named Bhikkhudaayii. Having heard the Doctrine of the Best of Conquerors, I had a strong inclination to go forth. At that time, our father did not give us permission [to go forth], [so] we seven daughters grew up in comfort as princesses, and unwearying we followed the holy life as virgins for twenty thousand years in our home, delighting in the service of the Buddha with appreciate joy. We were Samanii, Sama.naguttaa, Bhikkhunii, Bhikkhudaayikaa, Dhammaa, Sudhammaa, and, the seventh is Sa"nghadaayikaa. Now, [we are] Khemaa, Uppalava.n.naa, Pa.taacaaraa, me [Ku.n.dalaa], Kisaa-Gotamii, Dhammadinnaa, and, the seventh is Visaakhaa. "Tehi kammehi sukatehi, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msamagacchaha.m. "Pacchime ca bhave daani, giribbajapuruttame; jaataa se.t.thikule phiite, yadaaha.m yobbane .thitaa. "Cora.m vadhattha.m niiyanta.m, disvaa rattaa tahi.m aha.m; pitaa me ta.m sahassena, mocayitvaa vadhaa tato. "Adaasi tassa ma.m taato, viditvaana mana.m mama; tassaahamaasi.m visa.t.thaa, atiiva dayitaa hitaa. "So me bhuusanalobhena, balimajjhaasayo diso; corappapaata.m netvaana, pabbata.m cetayii vadha.m. As a result of those virtuous deed and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. And now, in my last existence, I was born in the magnificent town of Giribbaja [Raajagaha] in the family of a prosperous, wealthy merchant. When I was still young, I was a thief being led to the execution site. I was infatuated with him. Then my father set him free from punishment with a thousand coins. Seeing my state of mind, my father gave him to me. I had trust in him. I was very in love with him and devoted to him. Because of greed for my ornaments, he led me towards the mountain to the Thieves' Precipice with the intention of making an offering. He was thinking of murder. "Tadaaha.m pa.namitvaana, sattuka.m sukata~njalii; rakkhantii attano paa.na.m, ida.m vacanamabravi.m. "Ida.m suva.n.nakeyuura.m, muttaa ve.luriyaa bahuu; sabba.m harassu bhaddante, ma~nca daasiiti saavaya. "Oropayassu kalyaa.nii, maa baa.lha.m paridevasi; na caaha.m abhijaanaami, ahantvaa dhanamaabhata.m. "Yato saraami attaana.m, yato pattosmi vi~n~nuta.m; na caaha.m abhijaanaami, a~n~na.m piyatara.m tayaa. "Ehi ta.m upaguuhissa.m, katvaana ta.m padakkhi.na.m; na ca daani puno atthi, mama tuyha~nca sa"ngamo. Then I bowed down to Sattuka with hands raised virtuously, and protecting my own life, I said this: "Take this gold bracelet and all these many pearls and lapis lazuli, sir, and call me your slave." "Put them down, my beauty," [he said]. "Don't lament too much. If I don't kill you, I can't know the wealth you have brought." "Ever since I can remember," [I said], "since I came of age,I don't know of anyone more dear to me than you. "Come, I will embrace you, keeping you on the right. We will not meet again now." "Na hi sabbesu .thaanesu, puriso hoti pa.n.dito; itthiipi pa.n.ditaa hoti, tattha tattha vicakkha.naa. "Na hi sabbesu .thaanesu, puriso hoti pa.n.dito; itthiipi pa.n.ditaa hoti, lahu.m atthavicintikaa. "Lahu~nca vata khippa~nca, nika.t.the samacetayi.m; miga.m u.n.naa yathaa eva.m, tadaaha.m sattuka.m vadhi.m. "Yo ca uppatita.m attha.m, na khippamanubujjhati; so ha~n~nate mandamati, corova girigabbhare. "Yo ca uppatita.m attha.m, khippameva nibodhati; muccate sattusambaadhaa, tadaaha.m sattukaa yathaa. A man is not wise on all occasions. A woman is also wise, being skilful here and there. A man is not wise on all occasions. A woman is also wise, quickly thinking of what is useful. I qiuckly did my duty and rapidly brought him down with a calm mind. Then I killed Sattuka in this way, as [a hunter] with a fully bent bow [kills] an animal. Whoever does not quickly understand a matter when it arises, dim witted, he is killed like a thief in the mountain gorge. Whoever quickly attends to a matter when it arises, he is freed from being pressed by an enemy, as I was from Sattuka. === peace, connie #69768 From: connie Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:15 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Offline Dear Friends, 13. 'And hear another reason, O king, for the same thing. That wondrous gem, O king of a sovran overlord, bright and beautiful, with its eight facets so well cut, four cubits in thickness, and in circumference as the nave of a cart-wheel, could no man, wrapping it up in a cloth and putting it into a basket, keep and use as a hone to grind his scissors upon. And neither, O king, could any one soever keep in use, as his slaves, the children of Vessantara, like to the jewels of the lord of the world in glory. 14. 'And hear, O king, another reason. just as the elephant king Uposatha, gentle and handsome, eight cubits in height and nine in girth and length, showing the signs of rut in three places on his body, all white, sevenfold firm, could never by any one be covered up with a saucer or a winnowing fan, could never be put into a cowpen like a calf, or made use of as one [283]; just so could no one whatever keep in use, as his slaves, the children of Vessantara, who were, in the world, like Uposatha the elephant king. 15. 'And hear, O king, another reason. Just, O king, as the mighty ocean is great in length and breadth, and deep, not to be measured, and hard to cross, impossible to fathom or to cover up, and no one could close it in and make use of it as a single ferry, just so could no one whatever keep in use, as his slaves, the children of Vessantara, as esteemed in the world as the mighty ocean. == to be continued, connie #69769 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:34 am Subject: Re: The Source of Dukkha nidive Hi Howard, > The Buddha, in the second noble truth, pointed to tanha as the > (primary) condition for suffering. There is an inclination among > some Buddhists, however, to treat all conditioned dhammas as > leading to suffering on their own and as requiring abandonment not > only in the sense of relinquishing attachment to them, but in the > sense of annihilating them. This tendency leads to seeing > our very senses and sense objects as fetters. But the Buddha's > lieutenant, Ven. Sariputta, has explicitly denied this last > attribution of fetter status in the Kotthita Sutta. The six sense media are old kamma and whatever tanha that arises in dependence on old kamma is new kamma. An arahant makes no new kamma though old kamma remains in operation. The six sense media and tanha support each other in a vicious cycle. If there is the appearance of the six sense media, it is possible that there will be tanha. Tanha cannot arise without the six sense media. And if there is tanha, there will be the reappearance of the six sense media in a future birth. If one is dispassioned with the eye, dispassioned with the ear, dispassioned with the nose, dispassioned with the tongue, dispassioned with the body, dispassioned with the intellect, then one does not make a support for the reappearance of the six sense media. When the six sense media is seen rightly in this way, it is nothing short of being dukkha, though it is definitely not the fetter. The Buddha teaches the ending of all kamma, whether old or new. Swee Boon #69770 From: "Alan McAllister" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:34 am Subject: indifferent feelings drampsych I hope to get some clarification on the issue of the link between feelings and greed, hatred, and delusion. I see how positive feelings (pleasant) lead to desire and greed and negative feelings (unpleasant) lead to aversion and hatred, but I don't understand the connection between indifferent feelings and ignorance/delusion. Perhaps you could clarify this point. Also, greed and hatred take many forms as emotions, but what are the emotional forms that ignorance/delusion take? Thank you for your attention. Alan McAllister #69771 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Source of Dukkha upasaka_howard Hi, Han - In a message dated 3/20/07 9:06:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, hantun1@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > Thank you very much. > =================== Thank *you*, sir! :-) With metta, Howard #69772 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:11 am Subject: Re: indifferent feelings nidive Hi Alan McAllister, > I see how positive feelings (pleasant) lead to desire and greed and > negative feelings (unpleasant) lead to aversion and hatred, but I > don't understand the connection between indifferent feelings and > ignorance/delusion. Perhaps you could clarify this point. Bhikkhu Samahita has a Dhamma Drop on this: http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/ Indifference_Creates_Ignorance.htm Swee Boon #69774 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Source of Dukkha TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 3/20/2007 6:56:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi all - The Buddha, in the second noble truth, pointed to tanha as the (primary) condition for suffering. There is an inclination among some Buddhists, however, to treat all conditioned dhammas as leading to suffering on their own and as requiring abandonment not only in the sense of relinquishing attachment to them, but in the sense of annihilating them. TG: I'm not aware of this view expressed in this group. (But I miss a lot of posts.) If when Herman and I spoke of Nibbana as the end of all experience, if that's what you are referring to by annihilation, then I don't think you have understood that position. (And, I posted several Suttas that support that position directly.) I also believe the view of annihilation is only relevant when someone is holding to the notion of self. As far as treating all conditioned dhammas as leading to suffering. Well, The Buddha said ... "All things are dukkha, and I say this in relation to the impermanence of all formations." Surely this approach, though true in itself, is meant to turn the mind away from attachment to formations and hence overcome attachment/suffering. This tendency leads to seeing our very senses and sense objects as fetters. But the Buddha's lieutenant, Ven. Sariputta, has explicitly denied this last attribution of fetter status in the Kotthita Sutta. I copy that sutta here for your convenience. TG From my view...not at all. The fetters are the attachments to phenomena by seeing phenomena as pleasant instead of unpleasant. Therefore, tanha is directly related to NOT seeing all conditions/formations as Dukkha. That's why the Buddha stressed so often that -- all formations are dukkha. But isolating tanha or ignorance as the key culprits in the experience of suffering is something I agree with whole-heatedly. I'd be crazy not to. LOL TG #69775 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:20 am Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana TGrand458@... In a message dated 3/20/2007 4:04:02 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG, You can imagine that you have me here :-)) I shall avoid long debates, but allow me to give you one quote from the Abhidhamma to show that the Abhidhamma deals with the cittas of daily life. Hi Sarah Your list from the Vibhanga is great. But your statement above is exactly what I mean about theory being taken as fact. I.E. -- "The cittas of daily life." The Suttas never address things that way. Its sort of the "atomic theory" of citta. TG PS, I'm not sure what "imagining that I have you here" means. Anyway, Best wishes! #69776 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Source of Dukkha upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 3/20/07 11:18:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > > In a message dated 3/20/2007 6:56:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Hi all - > > The Buddha, in the second noble truth, pointed to tanha as the > (primary) condition for suffering. There is an inclination among some > Buddhists, > however, to treat all conditioned dhammas as leading to suffering on their > own and > as requiring abandonment not only in the sense of relinquishing attachment > to > them, but in the sense of annihilating them. > > TG: I'm not aware of this view expressed in this group. (But I miss a lot > > of posts.) If when Herman and I spoke of Nibbana as the end of all > experience, if that's what you are referring to by annihilation, then I > don't think > you have understood that position. (And, I posted several Suttas that > support > that position directly.) I also believe the view of annihilation is only > relevant when someone is holding to the notion of self. > > As far as treating all conditioned dhammas as leading to suffering. Well, > The Buddha said ... "All things are dukkha, and I say this in relation to > the > impermanence of all formations." > > Surely this approach, though true in itself, is meant to turn the mind away > > from attachment to formations and hence overcome attachment/suffering. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe that the word dukkha is a multiple-meaning one for which there are at least two Dhammic senses. One of them, using 'dukkha' as a noun, means suffering (or mental pain). The other, using it as an adjective, means unsatisfactory (or unsatisfying). I believe it is that adjectival sense that is intended in "Sabbe sankhara dukkha". The point is that satisfaction is not to be found in conditions (but in relinquishment). ----------------------------------------- > > > > This tendency leads to seeing > our very senses and sense objects as fetters. But the Buddha's lieutenant, > Ven. > Sariputta, has explicitly denied this last attribution of fetter status in > the > Kotthita Sutta. I copy that sutta here for your convenience. > > > > TG From my view...not at all. The fetters are the attachments to > phenomena > by seeing phenomena as pleasant instead of unpleasant. Therefore, tanha is > > directly related to NOT seeing all conditions/formations as Dukkha. That's > > why the Buddha stressed so often that -- all formations are dukkha. ----------------------------------------- Howard: We need to see that all conditions are unsatisfying (dukkha, the adjective) and that craving the presence or absence of conditions engenders suffering (dukkha, the noun) in order to put an end to suffering (dukkha, the noun). After full awakening, the adjectival sense of 'dukkha' remains a fact. Even for a Buddha, conditions are not sources of satisfaction, but a Buddha hasn't the sightest inclination to find satisfaction there, having attained perfection in all respects and requiring nothing. ----------------------------------------- > > But isolating tanha or ignorance as the key culprits in the experience of > suffering is something I agree with whole-heatedly. I'd be crazy not to. > LOL > > TG > > ======================= With metta, Howard #69777 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:21 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 10, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Old age is dukkha. The commentary explains that it is called suffering as being the basis for both bodily and mental suffering. We read: ...For the person of one who is aged is weak like an aged cart. Great suffering arises in one struggling to stand or to walk or to sit; grief arises in one when his wife and children are not as considerate as before. Thus it should be understood as suffering through being the basis for these two kinds of suffering. Furthermore: With leadenness in all one's limbs, With all one's faculties declining, With vanishing of youthfulness, With undermining of one's strength, With loss of memory and so on, With growing unattractiveness To one's own wife and family, And then with dotage coming on, The pain that mortals undergo, Alike of body and of mind- Since ageing causes all of this, Old age is thus called suffering. Death is dukkha. The dying moment is only one moment of citta which falls away and then there is another life, but one is no longer the same person. Death is called suffering because it is the basis for both mental and bodily suffering. There is bodily suffering before dying and also mental suffering. When one loses one's possessions one is unhappy, but at death one loses everything, one loses one's body, one loses one's life as this particular person. Death is the greatest dukkha. We are attached to our possessions and we may be inclined to stinginess. If we remember that at death we have to leave everything behind it can be a condition to be less stingy. Stinginess can condition akusala kamma leading to an unhappy rebirth. "If we want to save things for ourselves we actually save them for Hell", Khun Sujin explained. The commentary states that those who, because of akusala kamma, are destined for an unhappy rebirth, have great fear and grief shortly before dying. At that moment the akusala kamma they committed or an image of Hell can appear to them. Thus we see that death is the basis for bodily and mental suffering. ****** Nina. #69778 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:42 am Subject: indifferent feeling nilovg Dear Alan Mc, good to see you here again :-) --------- alanmcallister@... I see how positive feelings (pleasant) lead to desire and greed and negative feelings (unpleasant) lead to aversion and hatred, but I don't understand the connection between indifferent feelings and ignorance/delusion. Perhaps you could clarify this point. Also, greed and hatred take many forms as emotions, but what are the emotional forms that ignorance/delusion take? ----------- N: When citta rooted in attachment accompanied by happy feeling (or by indifferent feeling) experiences a pleasant object there is delight in the object. When citta rooted in aversion accompanied by unpleasant feeling experiences an unpleasant object it is averse, it wants to shun the object. When citta rooted in ignorance experiences an object it does not know anything about the object, it does not know whether it is pleasant or unpleasant, there is just the darkness of not knowing. How could there be pleasant or unpleasant feeling when there is blank ignorance? But each citta is accompanied by feeling, and in that case it can only be indifferent feeling. I would avoid the word emotion, since feeling as taught in the Tipitaka is very precise, it is not the same as what we denote in conventional terms as emotion; emotion describes a situation, not a moment of citta. It is better to be precise, differentiating what type of citta arises, rooted in which hetus, experiencing what kind of object. Also I would not call pleasant feelings positive and unpleasant feelings negative, it is not so precise. Pleasant feeling can be kusala or akusala. Can we call akusala pleasant feeling that accompanies lobha positive? What is on the side of akusala leads to harm, it is negative. We find pleasant feeling very important, but it is only a conditioned dhamma and it is beyond control. The vipaakacittas arising in a process of cittas experience a pleasant object or an unpleasant object. These cittas are the result of kamma. After that there are javanacittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas which react to the object. It depends on yoniso manaasikaara or ayoniso manaasikaara whether kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. These cittas accumulate kusala or akusala and this will condition the arising of kusala cittas or akusala cittas in the future. Nina. #69779 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:21 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 3, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, As to bodysense, this is situated all over the body and inside it, except in the hairs or tips of the nails. It is one of the conditions for experiencing tactile object. The “Visuddhimagga” states, in the same section: “Body-consciousness arises due to body, tangible object, earth and attention.” The “Atthasåliní” (same section, 315) explains: ... Internal and external extension (solidity) is the cause of the tactile sense seizing the object. Thus it is not possible to know the hardness or softness of a bed well spread out or of fruits placed in the hand, without sitting down on the one or pressing the other. Hence internal and external extension is the cause in the tactile cognition of the tactile organ. Thus, when there is tactile cognition, bodyconsciousness, there are actually elements impinging on elements. The impact of tactile object on the bodysense is more vigorous than the impact of the objects on the other senses. According to the “Paramattha Mañjúsa”, a commentary to the “Visuddhimagga”, because of the violence of the impact on the bodysense, body-consciousness (kayaviññåùa) is accompanied either by pleasant feeling or by painful feeling, not by indifferent feeling, whereas the other sense-cognitions (seeing, hearing, etc.) are accompanied by indifferent feeling. Through the bodysense are experienced: the earth element, appearing as hardness or softness; the fire element, appearing as heat or cold; the wind element, appearing as motion or pressure. When these characteristics appear they can be directly experienced wherever there is bodysense, thus also inside the body. As we have seen, visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object (three of the four Great Elements) are experienced through the corresponding sense-doors and they can also be experienced through the mind-door. The sense-organs themselves through which the sense- objects are experienced are rúpas that can only be known through the mind-door. ******* Nina. #69780 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Yes, whatever fails to satisfy (i.e., whatever is dukkha), but is clung to as if it could satisfy is a source of suffering. Whatever, however, is neither craved nor despised nor clung to is not a source of suffering, despite it failing to satisfy. An arahant is free of dukkha in two senses: 1) S/he is free of all phenomena that will not satisfy, being unconditionally free even while still alive, and 2) In being so, s/he does not suffer. Even illness, old age, and death itself, while dukkha (unsatisfying) and while conditions for extreme suffering in a worldling and even lesser ariyans, are not conditions for suffering in an arahant. To call something "suffering" if it is a condition for suffering (provided it, or its absence, is craved) is just a way of speaking - a misleading way of speaking. What is true is only that it is a condition for suffering in the presence of craving (or aversion). All conditioned dhammas are dukkha, but only suffering (i.e., mental pain) is literally suffering. With metta, Howard #69781 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:10 pm Subject: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 3/19/2007 10:00:24 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > So, the Eightfold Path has been turned into a one-fold path. > (On second thought, it is pointless to be arguing this. I am wasting > my time. Laters.) > > Metta, > James > > > > Yep. LOL > > TG > Hi TG, To start with, I would like to assure you that I am not offended by this post. You can write what you like – that is the nature of DSG. But does it concern you that you may be "laughing out loud" at the Buddha's teaching? I think you will agree that your opinions on the Dhamma can only be supported by denying the authenticity of the Abhidhamma (that is found not only in the Abhidhamma-pitaka but also in many suttas), denying clear and specific explanations that are found in the ancient commentaries, denying the reality of namas and rupas, and denying that anatta makes the practice of vipassana something totally different from other, more common, practices. That is quite a stretch, isn't it? Perhaps you should be a little less sure of your opinions and a little more circumspect with your laughter. (?) Ken H #69782 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:24 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 10, no 5. nidive Hi Howard, > All conditioned dhammas are dukkha, but only suffering (i.e., > mental pain) is literally suffering. What then is the difference between an arahant and a radiant deva from the 2nd jhanic realm in terms of suffering, ie mental pain? Swee Boon #69783 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:15 pm Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana upasaka_howard Hh, Ken - In a message dated 3/20/07 7:12:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > ... the Abhidhamma (that is found not only in the Abhidhamma-pitaka but > also > in many suttas), ... ======================= I find that "Abhidhamma can be found in the suttas" business objectionable and condescending. What is to be found in the Sutta Pitaka is the Dhamma. And if the Dhamma can be found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, a position I largely agree with, that is quite good enough to say for the Abhida Pitaka! The Buddha taught Dhamma-Vinaya, not Abhidhamma-Vinaya. There is no need to go beyond the Dhamma, to go above the Dhamma, or to supercede the Dhamma, nor is there any possibility of doing so. There is no truth higher than the Dhamma. With metta, Howard #69784 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 10, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/20/07 7:25:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > >All conditioned dhammas are dukkha, but only suffering (i.e., > >mental pain) is literally suffering. > > What then is the difference between an arahant and a radiant deva > from the 2nd jhanic realm in terms of suffering, ie mental pain? > > Swee Boon > > ======================= An arahant has uprooted and permanently ended all defilements, and there is no further suffereing for him or her - ever. With metta, Howard #69785 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Flowers for Phil ( was Re: All about formless planes) philofillet Hi NIna > I am not hoping to be free from ignorance, that is a long way off. > Just considering conditions. Having even a little more understanding > of conditions is valuable. Yes, it is valuable. And very interesting to know what the Buddha enlightned. But it does not guard the sense doors, it does not provide right effort that cuts off proliferation, thereby contributing to the kind of states of mind that are open to the deeper teaching. > I like your sutta quote about the gradual training, very basic. Nina, I find this puzzling. Why do you like a sutta that indicates that your teacher's approach to Dhamma, with its premature insistence on "detachment from the beginning" and panna that sees into anatta from the beginning is incorrect? (This goes for other suttas on gradual training that have been posted here - I know Swee Boon posted MN39) I guess you and other Acharn Sujin students find a way to spin (interpret) the sutta to make it mean something else, like you do all the suttas that say that unless one develops concentration, there will not be penetrative insight. Sorry to be so unpleasant sounding, but I do feel a little irritated by the way Sujinists manage to ignore suttas or spin them to mean something else. This must be what goes on for you to be able to "like" a sutta which shows that your teacher is wrong. Especially irritating when one so often hears Acharn Sujin saying "one cannot change the Buddha's teaching" or words to that effect. Please do post a reply, if you'd like, but this will be my last comment to you until the autumn. Wishing you and Lodewijk a very good summer. Sorry again for the unpleasant tone. Metta, Phil #69786 From: "colette" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:26 pm Subject: Re: "scrambled brains" ksheri3 Hi connie, Visuddhimagga, I'm fairily sure I've seen mention of it here and there but this buddhism is new to, I grew up literally receiving an "F" for my participation in the christian version of Sunday school in Chantilly VA, circa 1971, but lived in a dictatorial household of Patriarchy -- after my automobile accident in 1978 that took away any/all athletic career/scholarships my dad would go into a tyraid when he wasn't in Tokyo, last two years I spent with my parents, 16- 18 years of age, I only saw my dad about two days of 14 days, you'd have to have seen the movie Animal House where the frat- pledge "Dorfman" was being inspected in his ROTC uniform , the exact actions were totally replicated by my dad: he'd get so angry that I was recouperating and trying to live a life without him that if anything went wrong his blood pressure would sky-rocket (not good for a person that had previously had three or four heartattacks) but he'd get about an inch from my face, his brain would be racing so fast that his mouth couldn't keep up with his thoughts which literly led to spitting in my face. Now since I never saw him brush his teeth for the first 17 years of my life, never, ever, then I didn't have the guts to say a word since I didn't want that shit in my mouth i.e."Pledge Pin" The car accident gave me THE ESOTERIC, actually it gave me everything, alchemy, tarot, divination, etc. and I've been developing these qualities, skills, resistances, connections, whatever, ever since. My main course of study for more than two decades was the kabballah and Golden Dawn techniques, so I come with LOTS & LOTS OF BAGGAGE. I'm surprised you don't know of Dzyan or the Book of Dzyan, since I was a member of the Theosophical Society in Wheaton IL when I lived there and study religously at the Olcott Library. that's where I picked up the breathing technique of Pranayama. so, enough chit-chat, background noise, or is that white noise? ahggg, whatever, I wasn't aware that this book, Visuddhimagga, came divided up into sections that contained different specific Suttas or Sutras, but then again I'm not very familiar with reading any Asian or Oriental manuscripts in their entirety, can't afford it. The jewish population here watched me read all these books on the Kabballah for 20 years and when I just left everything in a "Public Storage" locker in, I think, 2000, they surely got a interesting collection of Grimoires, books on ceremonial magik. > I assume you agree that it's hard enough to agree on simple word > definitions and other rules of the communication game in ordinary day to > day existence and that when we start talking "Buddhism" the complications > really come into play. > colette: it's not just hard, difficult, it's down right AGGRIVATING AND AGGITATING to have to sit here sometimes trying to hold discussions <...> > without some > kind of jhaana colette: I'm trying to work with some others now on this exactr subject material. That grandious union of Shiva/Shakti, Yin/Yang, is what I speak of. It's a type of "Bliss" or "Extacy" nevertheless it is a euphoria and euphorias are caused by things such as chemical conditions in the body, speed of the blood, etc. <...> These changes in the body work hand in hand with THE ENVIRONMENT or Nature. Now we run into our friends the Quantum Physics Theorists since it is a VERY GOOD APPLICATION OF THE OCCURANCE WHICH THEY'VE DEFINED AS "String Theory". It incorporates so many "concepts" such as "VIBRATION", you may care to look into Tibetan monks or monestaries; or this works with applying the Zen concept of THE SINGULARITY OR MIND, BODY, SPIRIT. Although there is way too much deviation and perversions in and from this concept of Boddhisatva to bother going into it, I can say that the basic principle of the Boddhisatva teachings are VERY RATIONAL AND NORMAL TO ME. Which gives rise to our Jewish friends in their concept of Adam Kadmon. The amazing thing is that there is CONTINUITY. For instance, while there may be as of yet undiscovered reasons for the South and Central American Tribes, cultures, to have built pyramids but damn, how is it possible for indencticla pyramids to be built in South/Central America and in Indonesia or China, or even in Egypt, what about the Gaelic mounds near StoneHendge, etc. I hope you can see my points that I'm getting at here. This brings me to a place very close to me, the University of Chicag, where I find this guy, board of directors for the Golden Dawn Society, but he applies, uses, a lot of buddhist techniques, values, etc. in his workings -- <...> > :) A computer in the house!?!? Are you sure I can't snail mail you some > cd's now? > colette: I'd love to receive matterial from others, receive mail that is not AN ORDER FROM SOME BIMBO AUTHORITY that dictates I LOSE. I'd love to give ya the address of where I was lucky enough to get a place to stay but it is not my residence, I'm the RENTERS guest one might say, and so I'd be involving another person in something that is totally MY WORKINGS. As I'm sure you can tell, <...> Thanx for the reply, email me and I'll give ya the address of The Fransiscan Outreach Ministries where I pick up my mail. Every letter that has been mailed to the home I live in, addressed to me, has been opened and inspected, so I make sure I don't bother them with MY MAIL, CORRESPONDENCE. I have no privacy with them anyway so I've gotta do something to save myself. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > dear colette, > > yes, the Visuddhimagga (aka Path of Purity, aka Path of Purification) > would tend to read like "the mode of transmission from the Abhidharma"! <....> #69787 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:00 pm Subject: Optimal Observance I bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 8 Precepts which brings Divinity? The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day endowed with eight features brings high reward and blessing, & is of sublime dignity and greatness. And which are these eight features? Here, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats avoid the killing of living beings, they do not hurt any of them. Without stick or weapon, tender-hearted, gentle, caring, & mild they think only of the welfare of all living beings! So will also I, this day and night, avoid the killing and hurting of hearted, full of kindness, I will think only on the joyous welfare of all living beings and creatures. In this regard I will follow the Arahats, & I shall observe this observance day praxis perfectly! With this first praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features will bring high - even divine - reward & blessing and is of supreme dignity and immense greatness... Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:44 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm More on this Optimal Buddhist Uposatha Day Observance: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Fullmoon_Observance_Day.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/atthasila.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Optimal Observance I! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69788 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (14) sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Sarah: "It is due to conditions. I also find that reflecting on the > fruition of past kamma is calming. Also, that the 'bad dream' is gone. > Only 'now' and the present thinking that's the problem...." > > A bit of cross-referencing: Is this, as well, an example of > recollection by way of na-vattabba, or would this simply be thinking > ('reflecting')? My guess: just thinking. But if so, how does this > condition calm (which it does seem to). .... S: Just thinking, but thinking wisely! Samatha (calm) accompanies all kinds of kusala. When there is wise reflection on any aspect of dhamma, it is samatha and knowing this, it can be developed at such times without any special 'trying'. Just daily life:). .... > Sarah: "May such 'bad dreams' be a condition for compassion for all > the other damaged 'streams'." > > Yeah. .... S: Again, when one reflects wisely on the suffering for all those involved (as opposed to pity or anger and so on), it can condition calm again. Metta, Sarah ======== #69789 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (35) sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando, Connie & all, --- Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Pubbakicca refers to the preparatory tasks identified in Path of > Purification Ch. III 16, namely, the cutting off of impediments and > development of skill in absorption. .... S: Thank you for this and the reference. Makes good sense. So, whenever pubbakicca is mentioned in the Therii accounts (prior to insight), it would imply the attainment of jhaana first, would you say? When she was still a young girl, she came into the presence of the Teacher together with the king. She heard the Doctrine, gained faith, and became a lay follower. Afterwards, a profound stirring arose and she went forth with the bhikkhuniis. *She fulfilled the preliminary duties*, established insight, and mastering the formations, possessing the prerequisites, and being of matured knowledge, after a very short time she attained Arahatship. daarikaa hutvaa ra~n~naa saddhi.m satthu santika.m upagantvaa dhamma.m sutvaa pa.tiladdhasaddhaa upaasikaa ahosi. Saa aparabhaage sa~njaatasa.mvegaa bhikkhuniisu pabbajitvaa katapubbakiccaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa sa"nkhaare sammasantii upanissayasampannattaa paripakka~naa.naa nacirasseva arahatta.m paapu.ni. ..... S: So here, by the age of 7 she attained (mundane) jhana(s), developed vipassana and became an arahant! Of course, this was not all just as a result of coming into the presence of the Buddha, but also her good deeds and listening to past Buddhas. Metta Sarah ------ #69790 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Nina), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Sarah: "...'present objects by way of na-vattabba' can be experienced > a long, long time later however...the object of the next life time's > patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti cittas remains a present object. How? By > way of na-vattabba... .... Present Sarah: I'd like to withdraw this particular example. I believed I had heard K.Sujin using it in this way, but as Nina has pointed out, the texts seem to just use na-vattabba for particular jhana cittas in this context and say cuti cittas never experience a 'present' object. I hadn't read her Tiika details on the Vism passages (e.g. #69597) when I wrote before. Actually, it was just a coincidence that I was looking at the same passages in Dispeller! Nina, the Tika details are very helpful in this regard, thank you. ... Past Sarah:>if the citta or cetasika just fallen away is > experienced by the subsequent mental process, it is referred to as the > *present* object...this is why the objects of mind-door processes > (dhammaaramma.na) may be namas, rupas or concepts. If namas could not > be directly known, it would be impossible to develop satipatthana." .... > Present Scott: Okay, this makes sense. You noted earlier: "...sanna > arises with each citta. Without sa~n~na marking and remembering the > object at each of these moments, any such 'recollection' or marking > (with whatever kind of cittas -akusala, kusala or even kiriya cittas > of the arahant) would be impossible." And, as you clarify just here > (Sarah: The word 'recollected' is a little deceptive. The dhammas > involved are directly known, not thought about as such...), > 'recollection' by way of na-vattabba is not simply 'remembering' > although sa~n~na has to be involved. It is, perhaps, a special case > of experience wherein a characteristic of a 'past' dhamma is object. > And this is about citta 'recollecting' its object in this way, not > 'anyone' doing anything. .... Sarah: Yes, just like the experiencing of sense objects or namas just fallen away. .... > Sarah "...Rapidly succeeding paccavekkana cittas directly knowing the > dhammas involved, such as the path factors that arose and so on. In > the case of jhana paccevekkana cittas, they directly know the jhana > factors which arose and so on...Usually, only just fallen away (like > in the example of the sense door object or namas just fallen away). > Sometimes, like in the case of the bhavangas, it may be that the > object itself has long since fallen away...(Another extreme example of > long, long fallen away would refer to a Buddha's or key disciple's > recollections, I believe)." ..... Forgotten Scott: > So, might the case, say, of object of bhavanga-citta be an example of > this sort of 'recollecting': The characteristic of the object of the > death-consciousness, marked by sa~n~na, is recollected by way of > na-vattabba with the arising of each bhavanga-citta? .... Sarah: I would have said so as a 'principle', but I think we need to put this example I used on hold for now. Let's see if we come across it on a tape sometime. Of course, as discussed, bhavanga and cuti-citta objects can be paramattha dhammas or concepts. ..... > Na-vattabba Scott: "In other words, there are the specific cases of > this reviewing, as you give in relation to path factors, etc., and > this is also the general process whereby any object comes to be taken > by citta, one after another in a series. Is this so? .... Sarah: The way I was using it, (paramattha by way of na-vattabba), it would only apply to particular cittas whereby the paramattha dhamma is still experienced as paramattha dhamma. ... > Sarah: "I'm not quite clear on your meaning in 'general process'." .... Forgotten Scott: > Nor am I. I think I was considering 'ordinary' dhammas. I think I > was wondering if, say, when I bring to mind ('remember'? - 'think > about'?) an earlier situation where dosa arose in a situation where > two children are fighting in the back seat, can the characteristic of > this dosa be 'recollected' (as part of but not 'remembering' the > event) by way of na-vattabba? .... Sarah: This would just be thinking or a concecpt of the dosa, even if it's just a partial recollection or 'taste'. I do believe that in a broader sense, K.Sujin said that all recollections of concepts could be considered as na-vattabba, however. So, I think this is where all bhavanga cittas come in etc. ..... Split Scott: >And what if this was noticed the first > time it arose as 'present object' and marked as such, would this make > a difference? .... Hesitant Sarah: Present objects are always 'marked' as such, usually by sanna vipallasa. There is always a marking. But except when it is the object of the immediately following mind-door process, it is said to be a concept rather than the reality. Metta, Sarah ========= #69791 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. sarahprocter... Hi Nina, Matheesha, Howard(* hello Phil!!), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: Nina: > And this is the purpose (hello Phil) of learning the Abhidhamma. What > we take for my eye, my seeing are elements over which we have no power. .... S: This is so true. I liked Matheesha's questions on phassa and the experiencing of rupa. Without the assistance of phassa, the nama, such as seeing consciousness, would not be able to experience its object when it impacts on the sense-base. For example, when we are asleep, no visible objects are seen because there is no 'contact' no seeing consciousness or phassa to experience them. This is the meaning of the 'coming together' of the elements. So it is always a nama which experiences a rupa, not as a 'representation', but as a 'rupa dhamma in itself'. When it comes to nama-rupa pariccheda nana, which you mentioned Matheesha, both namas and rupas which are experienced are clearly known, one after the other in the mind-door process. You mentioned that this topic was clearer after Nina's and Howard's helpful replies. I think you touched on important topics, so please do persevere if there are lingering questions/doubts/seeming contradictions. It's helpful for other people to clarify these difficult points. Metta, Sarah *Phil, look forward to discussing your comments about seeming contradictions between the suttas and what we say on your return. Without an understanding of seeing, visible object and the 'coming together' of elements, I don't see there being any real understanding of 'elements', anatta or reduction of kilesa as a result of lessening of the clinging to Self, but I know you have a different take on what you read. Have a great summer! ========== #69792 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:32 am Subject: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta buddhatrue Hi Ken H. and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > > They prefer Bhikkhu > > > Thanissaro's heterodoxy, which regards anatta as just a > meditator's > > > technique for calming the mind (a technique for putting stressful > > > thoughts about self out of the meditator's mind while he/she is > > > trying to meditate). (!!!) > > > > James: I don't think that this is an accurate summary of > Thanissaro's > > position. Could you quote the thesis statement in which he > proposes > > this? > > > > Hi James, > > Have a look at the article, "No Self or Not Self:" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html > > I have outlined my objections to Thanissaro's teachings in message > #34782. You might like to tell me what you think of it. I have read your post and Thanissaro's article and I would say that I agree with you: Thanissaro presents the teaching of anatta incorrectly. If Thanissaro believes there is a self or not is merely conjecture, however. And it wouldn't be good to assume things that he doesn't directly state. But, Thanissaro is quite mistaken when he states that the Buddha taught the teaching of anatta simply as a "strategy" to decrease attachment (either during meditation or daily mindfulness). It is obvious, through several suttas, that the Buddha taught anatta as one of the three characteristics of all conditioned reality (dhammas): "Monks, whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All processes are inconstant. "The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain: All processes are inconstant. "Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All processes are stressful. "The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain: All processes are stressful. "Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands — this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All phenomena are not-self.1 "The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain: All phenomena are not-self." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.134.than.html What disturbs me the most about Thanissaro's article is where he writes, "In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point- blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. Thus the question should be put aside." The sutta that Thanissaro is referring to is the Ananda Sutta and that isn't at all what the sutta states- and Thanissaro should know since he translated it! In that sutta, the Buddha refused to answer the question because he knew that either answer would be misunderstood. To answer yes or no to the person asking, a wandering ascetic, would have resulted in confusion because the questioner wasn't fluent in the Dhamma, he was of a different faith. The Buddha doesn't say that the question should be put aside because it "falls into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible." The sutta in question doesn't state anything of the sort: "Ananda, if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism [the view that there is an eternal, unchanging soul]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness]. If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self — were to answer that there is a self, would that be in keeping with the arising of knowledge that all phenomena are not-self?" "No, lord." "And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn44/sn44.010.than.html Metta, James #69793 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A final venting from phil, probably. sarahprocter... Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > S: I agree with you that usually the idea of 'atta' and certainly 'a > computer' or 'self' is a result of innumerable dhammas perceived and > thought about in such a way. > M:> Right--'idea' is the key-- > S:> However, ditthi (wrong view) can arise in an > eye-door or body-sense-door process. In other words, there can be an > idea > of 'atta' of 'something' or 'someone' instantly, long before there is > any > thinking about 'computer' or 'self'. > M:> An idea of 'something' or 'someone'? Before thinking? .... S: Yes, I think so! Perhaps 'idea' is the wrong word because we associate it with thinking. A baby sees a smile or a red object and has an idea of something pleasant. We hear thunder during the night of see lightening and have an instant impression of something. .... S:> I think it matters only in the sense that it's good to know how much > deeply accumulated ditthi and sense of atta has been accumulated. > Otherwise we might think: "Oh, I don't think of the computer or self as > being real," without appreciating just how subtle and deeply held such > views really are. > M:> Agreed. But I don't think I've quite got to the bottom of > this--doesn't > di.t.thi--the dhamma, not the concept--arise and subside before any > deeply > held views (concepts, in this sense, don't you think?) can be formed, by > sa~n~naa and so on? Or do deeply held views arise at once, in single > kha.naa, in a far more holistic way than I'm thinking? That is, can a > 'deeply held view' really be a dhamma rather than a concept? .... S: By 'deeply held', I meant "how subtle and 'tenacious' " wrong views are. That's why the tendency is only eradicated at sotapatti magga. Only when these more and more subtle layers are seen when they arise, can they be known and eventually eradicated. If they don't arise and aren't known, there's no chance of their being understood. I think that the wrong views we're used to recognising are the grosser kinds as in "I can control my moods" or something. However, whenever there's the idea/impression of the telephone, computer or hand as being 'something','something permanent', there's sanna vipallasa with wrong view. .... > On and off, to be honest. Thanks for trying. ... S: Interesting to consider more, I think. I certainly appreciate there are many more moments of ditthi arising than I used to think. (Of course, one can mistakenly take or lobha for ditthi which wouldn't be helpful at all.) M:> p.s. Am now able again to listen to mp3s while painting. Really > enjoying 'Sri Lanka' at the moment. Thanks again. ... S: Glad to hear it! The painting and listening are a good combination. Let us know if you hear anything which really stands out. There's a very good segment near the beginning of 'Colombo' as I recall. I never used to enjoy long-haul flights much, but now I look forward to ones, like our up-coming ones, as a chance to catch up with some listening! Metta, Sarah ======== #69794 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: All about formless planes sarahprocter... Hi Kel, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > S: sotapatti magga citta cannot arise in > > arupa brahma realms, but other lokuttara cittas can) ... > > cuti citta to arise. It had me stumped, but I think it must mean > that any > > such sotapatti phala cittas must refer to sotapatti samaapatti phala > > cittas (experienced only by sotapannas who have developed all > jhanas). Kel: > It can arise which doesn't mean it will. It was only confusing > because we're using cittas in the discussion. It's clear that the > whole sotapatti magga-appana vithi cannot occur in arupa realms. > Sotapatti phala-samapatti vithi can occur and phala-cittas we were > talking about would be the ones from this vithi only. We can quibble > about the requirements to be able to obtain this fruition but we're > only talking about the potential for arising anyway. So it's clear > what can and cannot arise in arupa realms. .... S: Very clearly stated, thank you. I think the requirements are the attainment of all jhanas with full mastery and being a sotapanna. .... > ps. I'm busy with retreats and will go again on 21st before heading > to asia for all of april. Don't mind my hit and run posting which > I'm sure you dont :) .... S: Oh, you're off today! Have a good retreat if this catches you and a wonderful trip to Asia for April. (Will you be in Myanmar or somewhere else, I wonder?). Let us know if you're coming through Hong Kong, though we'll also be away for most of April. No, we don't mind the 'hit and run posting' at all. Just good to see old faces around when they appear:). Metta, Sarah ========= #69795 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- colette wrote: > Good Day sarah, connie, Phil, and James, > colette: Sarah, I'll jump in since I know it'll work well with the > meditations I'm working on: > > The Unclean? Isn't Paranoia a mental disease that is to be avoided. > what is dirty and what is clean? ..... S: Thanks for the question. The 'unclean' or rather the 'dirty' refers to the defiled mind whilst the 'clean' refers to the 'undefiled'. Of course, our minds are always changing - one moment 'clean', the next 'dirty' or 'defiled': http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.007.nypo.html "1. Thus have I heard. Once the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks thus: "Monks." — "Venerable sir," they replied. The Blessed One said this: 2. "Monks, suppose a cloth were stained and dirty, and a dyer dipped it in some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take the dye badly and be impure in color. And why is that? Because the cloth was not clean. So too, monks, when the mind is defiled,1 an unhappy destination [in a future existence] may be expected. "Monks, suppose a cloth were clean and bright, and a dyer dipped it in some dye or other, whether blue or yellow or red or pink, it would take the dye well and be pure in color. And why is that? Because the cloth was clean. So too, monks, when the mind is undefiled, a happy destination [in a future existence] may be expected. 3. "And what, monks, are the defilements of the mind?2 (1) Covetousness and unrighteous greed are a defilement of the mind; (2) ill will is a defilement of the mind; (3) anger is a defilement of the mind; (4) hostility...(5) denigration...(6) domineering...(7) envy...(8) jealousy...(9) hypocrisy...(10) fraud...(11) obstinacy...(12) presumption...(13) conceit...(14) arrogance...(15) vanity...(16) negligence is a defilement of the mind.3 4. "Knowing, monks, covetousness and unrighteous greed to be a defilement of the mind, the monk abandons them.4 Knowing ill will to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing anger to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing hostility to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing denigration to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing domineering to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing envy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing jealousy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing hypocrisy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing fraud to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing obstinacy to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing presumption to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing conceit to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing arrogance to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing vanity to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it. Knowing negligence to be a defilement of the mind, he abandons it." ..... Metta, Sarah ====== #69796 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Where does Anger start from? sarahprocter... Dear Nitesh, --- kanchaa wrote: >When a doctor is sick, cant > he start to cure himself? .... S: Good question! He'd certainly be wise to do so. However, it wouldn't be with metta which always has *other* beings as object. Metta (to you, not to me), Sarah ========= #69797 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 3, no 1. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (Nina & all), --- upasaka@... wrote: >>N: (quote from Atthasalini).....Although the world perceives the eye as white, > > as (of a certain) bigness, extension, width, they do not know the > > real sentient eye, but only the physical basis thereof. That lump of > > flesh situated in the cavity of the eye is bound to the brain by > > sinewy threads. Therein are white, black, red, extension, cohesion, > > heat and mobility. The eye is white from the abundance of phlegm, > > black from that of bile, red from that of blood, rigid from the > > element of extension, fluid from that of cohesion, hot from that of > > heat, and oscillating from that of mobility. Such is the compound > > organ of the eye.... ... > This latter description is ancient biology. By today's standards > it is > primitive and flawed - it is quite primitive especially as regards such > > things as the phlegm & bile. .... S: This is rather a minor problem and you may well be right in what you say here. I'd just like to point out that even when assuming the conventional descriptions are 'primitive and flawed', such as with reference to the phlegm and bile, we have to consider that we may not understand what is intended and that the translation may not be adequate for this either: For example, many of these ideas related to ayurvedic medicine. I read somehwere that the first eye surgeries were carried out around the time of the Buddha by ayurvedic opthamologists using well-founded principles for cataract removal and so on. Just a couple of notes to consider here: ttp://www.itmonline.org/ayurreview/ayur5.htm "Pitta, kapha, and vata (vayu) have been translated as bile, phlegm, and wind, respectively, based on translations that arose out of the ancient Greek system. These terms are poor representatives of the underlying meaning, however." "The doshas-vayu, pitta, and kapha-constitute the tripod on which Ayurveda stands. To understand their theory perfectly and correctly is by itself a long and arduous study. The subject being a very complicated one, it cannot be explained within a few pages. Also, it has been defined by different experts in different ways, but the basic principles to which they all point to are the same." Metta, Sarah ======== #69798 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > I'm sorry, Sarah, but I just don't buy it, despite a valiant > effort on > your part. Whatever is not present but is nonetheless object of > awareness is > either merely thought of or is remembered, making it pa~n~natti. ..... S: So does this mean you're saying either: a) the object of satipatthana, a paramattha dhamma, can only be a rupa. Furthermore, the rupa can only be the object in the sense-door process. or b), the other objects of satipatthana -- any namas or rupas experienced in the subsequent mind-door process -- must be pannatti, i.e that which is 'merely thought of or is remembered'. I know someone else suggested something similar recently and I believe the idea of development of wisdom based on the knowledge of concepts is prevalent in other Schools of Buddhism (??). However, satipatthana, as I understand it, refers to the direct knowledge, the direct awareness of *realities*. Without this development, no enlightenment. We're all experts at thinking about concepts already, aren't we? I'll look forward to your further reflections as usual, Howard. Metta, Sarah ========= #69799 From: connie Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:29 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Friends, the last installment from www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3606.htm : 16. 'And hear another reason, O king. Just as the Himaalaya, the king of the mountains, five leagues high, and three thousand leagues in extent at the circumference, with its ranges of eight and forty thousand peaks, the source of five hundred rivers, the dwelling-place of multitudes of mighty--creatures, the producer of manifold perfumes, enriched with hundreds of magical drugs, is seen to rise aloft, like a cloud, in the centre (of the earth); like it, O king, could no one whatever keep in use, as his slaves, the children of Vessantara, as esteemed in the world as Himaalaya, the mountain king. 'And hear another reason, O king. Just as a mighty bonfire burning on a mountain top would be visible afar off in the darkness and the gloom of night, so was Vessantara the king well known among men, and therefore could no one whatever keep in use, as his slaves, the children of so distinguished a man--for just as at the time of the flowering of the Naaga trees in the Himaalaya mountains, when the soft winds (of spring) are blowing, the perfume of the flowers is wafted for ten leagues, or for twelve [284], so was the sound of the fame of king Vessantara noised abroad, and the sweet perfume of his righteousness wafted along for thousands of leagues, even up to the abodes of the Akanittha, (the highest of all) gods, passing on its way the dwelling places of the gods and Asuras, of the Garudas and Gandhabbas, of the Yakshas and Raakshasas, of the Mahoragas and Kinnaras, and of Indra the monarch of the gods! Therefore is it that no one could keep his children as slaves. 17. 'And the young prince Gaali, O king, was instructed by his father, Vessantara, in these words: "When your grandfather, my child, shall ransom you with wealth that he gives to the Brahman, let him buy you back for a thousand ounces of gold, and when he ransoms your sister Kanhaaginaa let him buy her back for a hundred slaves and a hundred slave girls and a hundred elephants and a hundred horses and a hundred cows and a hundred buffaloes and a hundred ounces of gold. And if, my child, your grandfather should take you out of the hands of the Brahman by word of command, or by force, paying nothing, then obey not the words of your grandfather, but remain still in subjection to the Brahman." Such was his instruction as he sent him away. And young Gaali went accordingly, and when asked by his grandfather, said: As worth a thousand ounces, Sir, My father gave me to this man; As worth a hundred elephants, He gave the girl Kanhaaginaa."' 'Well has this puzzle, Naagasena, been unravelled, well has the net of heresy been torn to pieces, well has the argument of the adversaries been overcome and your own doctrine been made evident, well has the letter (of the Scriptures) been maintained while you have thus explained its spirit! That is so, and I accept it as you say.' [Here ends the dilemma as to Vessantara's gift of his wife and children.] peace, connie