#69800 From: connie Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:29 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (46) nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing Bhaddaa's story, part five of six: "Tadaaha.m paatayitvaana, giriduggamhi sattuka.m; santika.m setavatthaana.m, upetvaa pabbaji.m aha.m. "Sa.n.daasena ca kese me, lu~ncitvaa sabbaso tadaa; pabbajitvaana samaya.m, aacikkhi.msu nirantara.m. "Tato ta.m uggahetvaaha.m, nisiiditvaana ekikaa; samaya.m ta.m vicintesi.m, suvaano maanusa.m kara.m. "Chinna.m gayha samiipe me, paatayitvaa apakkami; disvaa nimittamalabhi.m, hattha.m ta.m pu.lavaakula.m. "Tato u.t.thaaya sa.mviggaa, apucchi.m sahadhammike; te avocu.m vijaananti, ta.m attha.m sakyabhikkhavo. Then after I caused Sattuka to fall down that mountain gorge, I went to the white-robed ones [Jains] and went forth. They pulled out all my hair with tweezers. After I had gone forth, the immediately taught me their doctrine. Then I learned it and lived alone, investigating their doctrine. I a cemetary, [someone] cutt off a human hand, seized it, dropped it close to me and went away. Seeing that sign, I received the hand that was full of maggots. Then I stood up, agitated, and asked my fellow practitioners [about it]. They said, "The Sakyan bhikkhus understand this matter." "Saaha.m tamattha.m pucchissa.m, upetvaa buddhasaavake; te mamaadaaya gacchi.msu, buddhase.t.thassa santika.m. "So me dhammamadesesi, khandhaayatanadhaatuyo; asubhaaniccadukkhaati, anattaati ca naayako. "Tassa dhamma.m su.nitvaaha.m, dhammacakkhu.m visodhayi.m; tato vi~n~naatasaddhammaa, pabbajja.m upasampada.m. "Aayaacito tadaa aaha, ehi bhaddeti naayako; tadaaha.m upasampannaa, paritta.m toyamaddasa.m. "Paadapakkhaalanenaaha.m, ~natvaa sa-udayabbaya.m; tathaa sabbepi sa"nkhaare, iidisa.m cintayi.m tadaa. "I will go to the disciples of the Buddha and ask about this matter," [I thought]. They took me into the presence of the Best of Buddhas. He taught me the Doctrine. The Leader said, "The aggregates, the sense bases, and the elements are ugly, impermanent, misery. And they have no-self." I heard that Doctrine and purified the eye of the Doctrine. Then knowing the true Doctrine, I requested the going forth [and] full ordination. Then the Leader said, "Come, Bhaddaa!" Then after my ordination, I saw a small amount of water. Through washing my feet, knowing this together with rise and fall, I then thought of all formations as being like this. "Tato citta.m vimucci me, anupaadaaya sabbaso; khippaabhi~n~naanamagga.m me, tadaa pa~n~naapayii jino. "Iddhiisu ca vasii homi, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; paracittaani jaanaami, satthusaasanakaarikaa. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; khepetvaa aasave sabbe, visuddhaasi.m sunimmalaa. "Parici.n.no mayaa satthaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m; ohito garuko bhaaro, bhavanetti samuuhataa. "Yassatthaaya pabbajitaa, agaarasmaanagaariya.m; so me attho anuppatto, sabbasa.myojanakkhayo. After than, my mind was completely released in every way without clinging. Then the Conqueror declared that I was foremost of those who are of quick direct knowledge. I have mastery of the supernormal powers. By means of the divine ear, I know the thoughts of others. I comply with the teaching of the Teacher. I know my previous lives; my divine eye has been purified. Having destroyed all the taints, I am pure, completely freed of impurity. I have attended on the Teacher. I have done the Buddha's teaching. I have put down the heavy burden; everything that leads to renewed existence has been rooted out. The aim for which one goes forth from the home to the homeless state, that aim has been attained by me - all bonds are destroyed. "Atthadhammaniruttiisu, pa.tibhaane tatheva ca; ~naa.na.m me vimala.m suddha.m, buddhase.t.thassa saasane. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m ...pe... kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. And I [possess] the knowledge of the comprehension of meaning, states, and language of the pure, spotless teachings of the Best of Buddhas. My depravities are burnt out, ... I have done the Buddha's teaching. === peace, connie #69801 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 3/21/07 4:13:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > > I'm sorry, Sarah, but I just don't buy it, despite a valiant > >effort on > >your part. Whatever is not present but is nonetheless object of > >awareness is > >either merely thought of or is remembered, making it pa~n~natti. > ..... > S: So does this mean you're saying either: > > a) the object of satipatthana, a paramattha dhamma, can only be a rupa. > Furthermore, the rupa can only be the object in the sense-door process. ---------------------------------------- Howard: No. First of all, I believe that wisdom is needed to see through concepts, which includes observing the thinking process. Secondly, as fas I have beend to understand, the rupa persists into the following mind-door process - the same rupa. -------------------------------------- > > or b), the other objects of satipatthana -- any namas or rupas experienced > in the subsequent mind-door process -- must be pannatti, i.e that which is > 'merely thought of or is remembered'. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Again, "no" as regards rupas. However, as regards consciousness of namas, I would say "yes". When nama A is in action, it has an object, AO. When a subsequent nama, S, that "has A as object" is in action, A is no longer in existence, AO is no longer an object, and the current nama, S, takes as object a simulation of A that is conceptually projected or recalled. The object is pa~n~natti, though one that is very faithful replica. When A is gone, it is gone. If that is a problem with regard to the axiom that wisdom only deals with paramattha dhammas, so be it. Facts are facts, gone is gone, and when facts cause problems for our premisses, we need to check our premisses. ---------------------------------------- > > I know someone else suggested something similar recently and I believe the > idea of development of wisdom based on the knowledge of concepts is > prevalent in other Schools of Buddhism (??). However, satipatthana, as I > understand it, refers to the direct knowledge, the direct awareness of > *realities*. > ---------------------------------- Howard: "Realities" that are gone, are no longer real, fhey no longer exist, despite the views of the heretical Sarvastivadins. ------------------------------------ Without this development, no enlightenment. We're all experts> > at thinking about concepts already, aren't we? ---------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly think not. ---------------------------------------- > > I'll look forward to your further reflections as usual, Howard. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Thanks, Sarah. Likewise. :-) ------------------------------------------ > > Metta, > > Sarah ===================== With metta, Howard #69802 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:40 am Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > --------------- > <. . .> > RK: > However killing is always akusala kamma patha. > ---------------- > > Yes, I know. I have got myself tangled up, yet again, over this > point. I am trying to say that a concept – including the concept of > one person killing another – is only a concept. Akusala kamma patha, > on the other hand, is a dhamma. As with all concepts, if we draw too > close a parallel between the concept of killing and the `dhamma of > killing' we will end up with the idea of control over paramattha > dhammas. > > ------------------------------ Dear Ken This is where we see the teaching very differently. When there is killing there are elements: one of them IS akusala citta, and that is not wrong view to say that. There is no need to avoid using concepts such as people etc. , what is critical is to look at the underlying views. True someone might be talking about killing and think there are really beings and self, but that is not the fault of the language, it is that the paramattha dhammas underlying their statemnets are rooted in miccha-ditthi. However we don't get to right view by going to another extreme and trying to avoid relating conventional actions to paramattha. >_______________________________________ > > I think you are saying if there has been the concept "abortion" > or "the concept "intentional bombing of a populated area" then there > must have been the dhamma "akusala kamma patha." I am not so sure. > _____________________________________________ > I will think over the information you have given me (about the > bhikkhu who wanted to lessen a criminal's pain etc.), but it seems > to me on first reading to be more about training rules than about > concepts v. realities. _______________ It is not about training rules, it is about elements. The vinaya is like a mirror to see dhammas. There are some minor rules that if broken are not inherently akusala ( assuming they were done out of ignorance), but the rules involving parajika can only be broken because akusala cittas arise. Robert > #69803 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Re: Rupas. Introduction, 1.vipassana ~naa.na. upasaka_howard Hi again, Sarah - In a message dated 3/21/07 8:34:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: > Secondly, as fas I have > beend to understand, the rupa persists into the following mind-door process > - > the same rupa. > ========================== I'm having keyboard & mouse problems, Sarah, with keys & the mouse skipping and sticking. What that was intended say is "Secondly, as far as I have been led to understand, the rupa persists into the following mind-door process - the same rupa." With metta, Howard #69804 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha and conventional upasaka_howard Hi, Robert (and Ken) - I applaud your presentation in the following of the relationship between conventional and ultimate. It is clear, and, to me, refreshing! :-) With metta, Howard #69805 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:05 am Subject: detail to the ruupas which are the senses. nilovg Dear friends, Tiika to Visuddhimagga Ch XIV, 53: A snake does not like swept places but wants a place of refuse, a lair of grass and leaves, an anthill. Thus, an uneven place. Evenso, . Thus there is a great variety of visible object, and seeing sees it all. ** The cave: All these similes are used to teach the conditions necessary for the functioning of the senses so that the sense- cognitions can occur. *** It is explained that cattle turn up their muzzles and breathe the wind, and no smell is experienced when breath is not inhaled. An example easy to understand. ****The tongue Even when the bhikkhu who enters the village in the morning In the village he will receive almsfood. A simple example that the water element (saliva) has a function for tasting sense. *****The bodysense is compared to a jackal who desires to be in a charnal ground where he can eat raw human flesh. Evenso the tactile sense desires matter grasped at (upadi.n.na), and takes tangible object dependent on the extension element (N:solidity or earth). the end of my Tiika translation it is said: The word papa~nca, obsession, is used to give us an extra stab with the goad. We are obsessed by sense impressions. Therefore understanding of dhammas has to be developed at this moment. The Expositor clarifies the real purpose of all these similes and explanations by stating about the eyesense (308, 309): We never have enough of seeing, we cannot be satisfied, it is like an ocean. <'And this is an empty village,' refers to its being common to many and to the absence of a possessor.> There is no owner who can exert control. It is empty of essence as we read. ****** NIna. #69806 From: "nidive" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:45 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 10, no 5. nidive Hi Howard, > An arahant has uprooted and permanently ended all defilements, and > there is no further suffering for him or her - ever. True. An arahant has made an end to all future births but not a radiant deva from the 2nd jhanic realm. The radiant deva does not experience any mental pain right now like an arahant, but may experience it in a future birth. I think this is where the difference lies, which is why the victory cry of arahants start with "Birth is ended.". There is every reason to say that birth is suffering just as mental pain is suffering. At the very least, the First Noble Truth says so. Remember it is not mental pain that set Price Siddhartha seeking the Ancient Path, but rather birth, aging and death. See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html Swee Boon #69807 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta TGrand458@... Hi James In a message dated 3/21/2007 1:39:13 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: What disturbs me the most about Thanissaro's article is where he writes, "In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point- blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. Thus the question should be put aside." The sutta that Thanissaro is referring to is the Ananda Sutta and that isn't at all what the sutta states- and Thanissaro should know since he translated it! In that sutta, the Buddha refused to answer the question because he knew that either answer would be misunderstood. To answer yes or no to the person asking, a wandering ascetic, would have resulted in confusion because the questioner wasn't fluent in the Dhamma, he was of a different faith. The Buddha doesn't say that the question should be put aside because it "falls into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible." The sutta in question doesn't state anything of the sort: TG: Anyone using this sutta as an excuse to try to say the Buddha did not teach no-self is either utterly foolish or very dishonest! Probably both. And certainly not able to understand no-self. TG #69808 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:55 am Subject: Fowers for Phil who vents on. nilovg Hi Phil, Do not worry about any unpleasantness. I am used to you and you need venting, it makes you feel better. I shall miss that! Inspiring venting to me. --------- Quote N: I am not hoping to be free from ignorance, that is a long way off. > Just considering conditions. Having even a little more understanding > of conditions is valuable. ------- Ph: Yes, it is valuable. And very interesting to know what the Buddha enlightned. But it does not guard the sense doors, it does not provide right effort that cuts off proliferation, thereby contributing to the kind of states of mind that are open to the deeper teaching. > I like your sutta quote about the gradual training, very basic. Nina, I find this puzzling. Why do you like a sutta that indicates that your teacher's approach to Dhamma, with its premature insistence on "detachment from the beginning" and panna that sees into anatta from the beginning is incorrect? ------- N: A gradual training, teaching about the danger of sense pleasures and about Heaven: understanding one's cittas, when are they akusala, when kusala, and also understanding cause and result, knowing the danger of akusala and the value of kusala. But first one should know what is kusala, what is akusala, understanding one's citta now. Or not? but we do not have time now to discuss this further. You take a saying of Kh Sujin out of context and repeat this all the time. As Sarah also said: kusala citta has a degree of detachment. When listening to the Dhamma there are opportunities for kusala citta if one listens with the aim to have more understanding. At that moment one does not attach to sense pleasures and the doorways are guarded. -------- Ph: you and other Acharn Sujin students find a way to spin (interpret) the sutta to make it mean something else, like you do all the suttas that say that unless one develops concentration, there will not be penetrative insight. -------- N: The Dhamma is subtle and deep. We have to go deeper into the meaning of concentration, what types. Not just the word concentration is to be understood, we have to go into all the meanings and shades. ..... Ph: Please do post a reply, if you'd like, but this will be my last comment to you until the autumn. Wishing you and Lodewijk a very good summer. Sorry again for the unpleasant tone. ------ N: Warm regards also from Lodewijk. We wish you a very pleasant break, Nina. #69809 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:45 am Subject: Flowers for Phil ( was Re: All about formless planes) sukinderpal Hi Phil, (and Nina), Butting in here knowing that you won't be responding, but I hope you don't mind. ============================ Nina: > I am not hoping to be free from ignorance, that is a long way off. > Just considering conditions. Having even a little more understanding > of conditions is valuable. Phil: Yes, it is valuable. And very interesting to know what the Buddha enlightned. Sukin: Dhamma knowledge is not for accumulating and being attached to. Every time there is some understanding of one's experiences in light of the Dhamma, no matter be it tanha, avijja or miccha ditthi, there is increased motivation to study. It is in this respect that Dhamma does indeed become interesting. ============================= Phil: But it does not guard the sense doors,……… Sukin: What are the sense doors and how are they in fact guarded if not by the development of wisdom? Even for the development of samatha leading to jhana, some level of understanding is crucial. Here the panna becomes sharper in recognizing instances of lobha arisen due to the five sense door experiences. Therefore until and unless one's understanding has *really* been developed to see the danger of sense contacts, any `practice' adopted would only be some `self' induced activity. The guarding of the senses, taught uniquely by the Buddha, requires an even higher level of understanding. However, this is not a consequence of the development of samatha, but one that is based on the understanding about conditionality, hence uncontrollability of dhammas. It sees more, the danger of avijja, than of tanha. Therefore here, not only does panna need to be keen enough to know sense objects and any lobha arisen for their particular characteristics, but also that these are conditioned and anicca, dukkha and anatta. So better to know that there has not been any `guarding of the senses' realizing the truth of conditionality and no control, than to believe wrongly that there has been. =================================== Phil: …….. it does not provide right effort that cuts off proliferation, thereby contributing to the kind of states of mind that are open to the deeper teaching. Sukin: "Right effort" is right by virtue of the other accompanying path factors, the leader of which is panna. It is not right simply because "we are making an effort in accordance with a particular script". And while one strives to avoid a certain kind of `proliferation', i.e. thinking with akusala, not acknowledging that even these moments need to be understood as they are, one ends up with proliferation of a more dangerous kind, namely, ditthi. Understanding of Dhamma deepens by repeated consideration and growing familiarity with the different dhammas, including understanding them as conditioned and anatta. It does not come about as a result of some conventional practice involving `acceptance and avoidance', which only increases `self view' and the idea of `control'. Expectation of "deepening" one's understanding in this way is, as far as I can see, a pipe dream. ==================================== Nina: > I like your sutta quote about the gradual training, very basic. Phil: Nina, I find this puzzling. Why do you like a sutta that indicates that your teacher's approach to Dhamma, with its premature insistence on "detachment from the beginning" and panna that sees into anatta from the beginning is incorrect? (This goes for other suttas on gradual training that have been posted here - ………. Sukin: There is detachment with every moment of right understanding, at such times; some `wrong understanding' is being `given up'. Wrong View is what conditions wrong practice and silabattaparamasa, the panna which has therefore then arisen to recognize this, conditions also some degree of `detachment'. I know that you are thinking about deeper levels of detachment, but I don't think A. Sujin means such. More importantly however, I think that you come from the standpoint of viewing the Teachings as being "prescriptive", hence the criticism towards us `Sujinists' as being unrealistic about our so called `detachment from the beginning' ideal. However neither is this about some high level of detachment nor is it about trying to induce some state of mind…… It takes some level of right understanding to view the Teachings as being `descriptive' rather than `prescriptive', and once this happens, it becomes apparent that "detachment" and "understanding anatta" can happen at many levels, beginning with pariyatti. If viewed as prescriptive, then obviously this is seen as something that comes about at the end of some kind of formal practice. So it is understandable that the one won't agree with the other. Regarding the stress on `anatta', I think this allows for understanding of experiences unhindered by `self'. Self, no matter how subtle, distorts perception even at the intellectual level. It is like a layer covering that which must be seen "as it is". ================================ Phil: …….I know Swee Boon posted MN39) I guess you and other Acharn Sujin students find a way to spin (interpret) the sutta to make it mean something else, like you do all the suttas that say that unless one develops concentration, there will not be penetrative insight. Sukin: This is one consequence of the prescriptive/descriptive difference I mention above. Prescriptions see the Eightfold Path as factors to be developed separately, which to me makes no sense at all. When viewd as descriptive on the other hand, it becomes clear that all the "rights", including `right effort' cannot arise without the other factors. Spinning of Suttas does happen in a big way, but not by those of us who are willing to accept that there is no `self' to "do" anything, be it to increase dana, sila, or samatha or vipassana bhavana, but rather by those who can't and won't. ================================ Phil: Sorry to be so unpleasant sounding, but I do feel a little irritated by the way Sujinists manage to ignore suttas or spin them to mean something else. This must be what goes on for you to be able to "like" a sutta which shows that your teacher is wrong. Especially irritating when one so often hears Acharn Sujin saying "one cannot change the Buddha's teaching" or words to that effect. Sukin: The Buddha's Teachings must result in the kind of "viewing of experiences" radically different from the way any uninstructed worldling, no matter how intelligent, views it. Cause and effect as seen by a worldling cannot be relied upon to lead to the development of wisdom. Leaving aside any particular Suttas, how according to you, is your idea about `guarding the senses' and `developing concentration', different from an uninstructed worldling's view of things, and how is this in line with the Dhamma? ================================ I hope I have not been too bold. I just saw that Nina has responded, but I'll read that post later. :-) Metta, Sukin #69810 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and James) - In a message dated 3/21/07 10:48:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: > > Hi James > > > In a message dated 3/21/2007 1:39:13 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > What disturbs me the most about Thanissaro's article is where he > writes, "In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point- > blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When > later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or > that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view > that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. Thus the question > should be put aside." The sutta that Thanissaro is referring to is > the Ananda Sutta and that isn't at all what the sutta states- and > Thanissaro should know since he translated it! In that sutta, the > Buddha refused to answer the question because he knew that either > answer would be misunderstood. To answer yes or no to the person > asking, a wandering ascetic, would have resulted in confusion because > the questioner wasn't fluent in the Dhamma, he was of a different > faith. The Buddha doesn't say that the question should be put aside > because it "falls into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path > of Buddhist practice impossible." The sutta in question doesn't state > anything of the sort ------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly so, and the venerable having replied as he did is worrisome to me. I don't wish to go into what exactly may be involved, especially inasmuch as how much Ven T has done in service to e Dhamma. I'll just leave it that it concerns me. -------------------------------------- > > TG: Anyone using this sutta as an excuse to try to say the Buddha did not > teach no-self is either utterly foolish or very dishonest! Probably both. > > And certainly not able to understand no-self. > > TG > > ===================== With metta, Howard #69811 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 10, no 5. upasaka_howard Hi,Swee Boon - In a message dated 3/21/07 10:47:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, nidive@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > >An arahant has uprooted and permanently ended all defilements, and > >there is no further suffering for him or her - ever. > > True. > > An arahant has made an end to all future births but not a radiant > deva from the 2nd jhanic realm. The radiant deva does not experience > any mental pain right now like an arahant, but may experience it in a > future birth. > > I think this is where the difference lies, which is why the victory > cry of arahants start with "Birth is ended.". ------------------------------------ Howard: On foregoing we agree entirely. As for the rest, our understanding of 'dukkha' differs. C'est la vie. ;-) ------------------------------------ > > There is every reason to say that birth is suffering just as mental > pain is suffering. At the very least, the First Noble Truth says so. > > Remember it is not mental pain that set Price Siddhartha seeking the > Ancient Path, but rather birth, aging and death. > > See: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html > > Swee Boon > ====================== With metta, Howard #69812 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:06 pm Subject: Rupas, Ch 3, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, The sense-organs themselves through which the sense-objects are experienced are rúpas that can only be known through the mind-door. The five sense-organs are the bases (vatthus) or places of origin of the corresponding sense-cognitions. Cittas do not arise outside the body, they are dependent on physical bases where they originate [1]. The eyesense is the base where seeing-consciousness originates. The earsense is the base where hearing-consciousness originates, and it is the same in the case of the other sense-organs. As regards the base for body-consciousness, this can be at any place of the body where there is sensitivity. The sense-organs are bases only for the corresponding sense-cognitions. All the other cittas have another base, the heart-base, I shall deal with later on. The five sense-organs function also as doorways for the five kinds of sense-cognitions, as we have seen. The doorway (dvåra) is the means by which citta experiences an object. The eyesense is the doorway by which seeing-consciousness and also the other cittas arising in that process experience visible object. As we have seen, cittas which experience objects impinging on the senses and the mind-door time and again, arise in processes of cittas . The cittas other than seeing-consciousness which arise in the eye- door process do not see, but they each perform their own function while they cognize visible object, such as considering visible object or investigating it. Each of the five sense-organs can be the doorway for all the cittas in the process experiencing a sense-object through that doorway. The sense-organs can have the function of base as well as doorway only in the case of the five sense-cognitions. The sense-organs arise and fall away all the time and they are only doorway when an object is experienced through that sense-organ. Eyesense, for example, is only eye-door when visible object is experienced by the cittas arising in the eye-door process. When sound is experienced, earsense is doorway and eyesense does not function as doorway. The “Atthasåliní “ (II, Book II, Ch III, 316) states that “the senses are not mixed.” They each have their own characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause, and through each of them the appropriate object is experienced. The earsense can only receive sound, not visible object or flavour. Hearing can only experience sound through the ear-door. We are not used to considering each doorway separately since we are inclined to think of a person who coordinates all experiences. We are inclined to forget that a citta arises because of conditions, experiences one object just for a moment, and then falls away immediately. In order to help people to have right understanding of realities, the Buddha spoke time and again about each of the six doorways separately. He told people to “guard” the doorways in being mindful, because on account of what is experienced through these doorways many kinds of defilements tend to arise. -------- [1]: There are also planes of existence where there is only nåma, not rúpa. In such planes cittas do not need a physical base. ****** Nina. #69813 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:05 pm Subject: Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Sorrow (soka) is dukkha. Sorrow ruins, it rejects and destroys welfare, the commentary states. There are five kinds of ruins or losses: of relatives, of property, of health, of virtue, síla, and of right view. When one is affected by one of these losses and one is overwhelmed by it one has sorrow. These ruins are part of our daily life. One may lose relatives when robbers kill them, or one may lose them because of a war or because of disease. It is obvious that loss of relatives, of property and of health causes sorrow. As to loss of síla, this can cause one to worry about it and to suffer greatly. When there is loss of right view, one has wrong view, and this can condition many kinds of bad deeds which will bring unpleasant results. So long as one is attached to wrong view there is no way to become free from the cycle of birth and death. The commentary uses the words "inner sorrow" and "heart-burning". We read: "... for sorrow when it arises burns, consumes the mind like fire and makes one say: 'My mind is on fire. I cannot think of anything.' " Sorrow is compared to a dart which causes pain. It is the basis for both bodily and mental suffering. We read in the commentary that it has the characteristic of inner consuming, that its nature is to completely consume the mind and that its manifestation is continual sorrowing. We read the following verse: Sorrow like a (poisoned) arrow penetrates the heart of beings, And like a spear hot from the fire most grievously it keeps on burning. And since it brings on many kinds of suffering such as disease, Old age and death, this too has thus acquired the name of suffering. In the "Gradual Sayings"(Book of the Twos, Ch I, no. 3, Tapaníyå Sutta) we read about the burning of remorse: Monks, there are these two things that sear (the conscience). What two? Herein, a certain one has done an immoral act of body, he has done immoral acts in speech and thought, has omitted moral acts in body, speech and thought. He is seared (with remorse) at the thought: I have done wrong in body, speech and thought. I have left undone the good deed in body, speech and thought. And he burns at the thought of it. These, monks, are the two things that sear (the conscience). ****** Nina. #69814 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:33 pm Subject: citta is dark nilovg Dear Scott, thank you very much for typing out the audio. I select one part to which i like to add something: --------- Sujin: Now, the maano-dvaara of thinking is hidden. Only the five door-ways appear. But when its the pa~n~na which can discern the true nature of realities, maano-dvaara appears as dark as it is with some flash of different object at a time. By then the meaning of dhaatu or element is very clear. ------- N: For newcomers: here Kh Sujin explains about vipassana ~naa.na, insight knowledge. Then itis clear what the mind-door process is. Just now, it seems that there are only sense-door processes. But the mind-door cittas are dark, as she explained, they have no shape or form, they are nama. -------- Sujin: And is one ready to give up the idea of self?...Because one must be very brave and very courageous and very cheerful to face the reality as just different reality at a time. And the pa~n~na experiences or citta experiences. ------- N: I remember that she often says this in Thai: being brave and cheerful (athaan rareng). If we are depressed, thinking that everything is so difficult or that the development takes so long, it shows clinging to a self who wants to know. One may try ways and means to develop pa~n~naa faster. At the last Thai session in Bgk, I found it overwhelming that insight can know the very tiny space in between the groups of rupa, at the third stage of tender insight, and that it is possible to be aware of bhavangacittas in between processes. I asked how that would ever be possible. Kh Sujin said that indeed, when one listens more it seems that everything becomes more difficult. But then patience is needed. I was just very busy with the printing proofs of the Perfections and read the following: < Before we can reach fulfilment of the perfections, we should continue to develop them with patience and endurance, life after life, and this is “cira kåla bhåvana”, a development which takes a long time (cira kåla). It takes a long time to develop paññå to the degree that it can eradicate defilements. When we see the extent of the defilements we still have, it is evident that the development of paññå must take an endlessly long time. Defilements cannot be eradicated if we do not listen to the Dhamma and do not contemplate it. All the teachings we listen to deal with the development of paññå and the eradication of defilements. If we have patience with the development of the perfections they will reach fulfilment, we do not develop them in vain: eventually they will reach maturity and that means that the four noble Truths can be realized. > When there is courage and cheerfulness it shows that we do not think of: when shall insight be developed, or when shall I attain enlightenment. ***** Nina. #69815 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. m_nease Hi Nina, Thanks for this. Below, ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:05 AM Subject: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. > And since it brings on many kinds > of suffering such as disease, > Old age and death I thought that tanhaa, as the origin of suffering, was responsible for these. Is 'soka' somehow synonymous with 'tanhaa' here? Thanks again. mike #69816 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:45 pm Subject: Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta ken_aitch Hi James, Thanks for your opinion. It's nice to know we agree on something. > But, Thanissaro is quite mistaken when he states that the Buddha > taught the teaching of anatta simply as a "strategy" to decrease > attachment (either during meditation or daily mindfulness). It is > obvious, through several suttas, that the Buddha taught anatta as one > of the three characteristics of all conditioned reality (dhammas): > It is also a characteristic of the unconditined dhamma, don't forget.:-) Ken H #69817 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. nilovg Hi Mike, Soka is not the same as tanhaa, it is an aspect of dukkha. But we can say because of tanhaa and ignorance we are born. As I wrote: Here we cling to these matters and thus they cause sorrow. For siila and wrong view matters are different. < As to loss of síla, this can cause one to worry about it and to suffer greatly. > Nina. Op 21-mrt-2007, om 21:30 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > And since it brings on many kinds > > of suffering such as disease, > > Old age and death > > I thought that tanhaa, as the origin of suffering, was responsible for > these. Is 'soka' somehow synonymous with 'tanhaa' here? #69818 From: Sobhana Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta shennieca Hi all, Can anyone recommend a good article on Anatta? Which Bhikkhu has written the best essay on Anatta? Thank you. Regards, Sobhana #69819 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas, Ch 3, no 6. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - Nina, you may find this post of mine remarkable! ;-) In a message dated 3/21/07 2:06:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > The sense-organs themselves through which the sense-objects are > experienced are rúpas that can only be known through the mind-door. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I find that to be indubitably so! ------------------------------------- > The five sense-organs are the bases (vatthus) or places of origin of > the corresponding sense-cognitions. Cittas do not arise outside the > body, they are dependent on physical bases where they originate [1]. > The eyesense is the base where seeing-consciousness originates. The > earsense is the base where hearing-consciousness originates, and it > is the same in the case of the other sense-organs. As regards the > base for body-consciousness, this can be at any place of the body > where there is sensitivity. The sense-organs are bases only for the > corresponding sense-cognitions. ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, places of origin. I use the terminology "locational rupas". When there is seeing, the visible object seems locationally associated with the area of the conventional eye, though the biologists tell us the actual sensing is in the brain. In terms of experience, i.e., phenomenologically, it "fans out from the eye area". Likewise, a sound, whether seemingly near or far, is always locationally associated with the conventional ears. What you wrote here, Nina, makes good sense to me from my phenomenalist perspective. =================== With metta, Howard #69820 From: han tun Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:27 pm Subject: Daana Corner (24) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “The Manner of Giving” Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The Manner of Giving The suttas (e.g., A.iii,172) lay much emphasis on the manner of giving. The attitude of the donor in the act of giving makes a world of difference for the goodwill between the donor and recipient irrespective of whether the gift given is big or small. Sakkaccam danam deti: alms should be given in such a way that the donee does not feel humiliated, belittled or hurt. The needy ask for something with a sense of embarrassment, and it is the duty of the donor not to make him feel more embarrassed and make his already heavy burden still heavier. Cittikatva danam deti: alms should be given with due consideration and respect. The recipient should be make to feel welcome. It is when a gift is given with such warmth that a cohesive mutually enriching friendliness emerges between the donor and donee. Sahattha deti: one should give with one's own hand. The personal involvement in the act of giving is greatly beneficial. This promotes rapport between the donor and donee and that is the social value of giving. Society is welded in unity with care and concern for one another when generosity is exercised with a warm sense of personal involvement. Na apaviddham deti: one should not give as alms what is only fit to be thrown away. One should be careful to give only what is useful and appropriate. Na anagamanaditthiko deti: one should not give in such a callous manner so as to make the donee not feel like coming again. Giving with faith (saddhaya deti) is much extolled in the suttas (A.iii,172). Especially when offering alms to the clergy one should do so with due deference and respect, taking delight in the opportunity one has got to serve them. Once should also give at the proper time to meet a dire need (kalena deti). Such timely gifts are most valuable as they relieve the anxiety and stress of the supplicant. One should give with altruistic concerns, with the sole intention of helping another in difficulty (anuggahacitto danam deti). In the act of giving one should take care not to hurt oneself or another (attanan ca paran ca anupahacca danam deti). Giving with understanding and discretion is praised by the Buddha (viceyyadanam sugatappasattham). If a gift contributes to the well-being of the donee it is wise to give. But if the gift is detrimental to the welfare of the donee one should be careful to exercise one's discretion. Giving as described above is highly commended as noble giving (sappurisadana). More than what is given, it is the manner of giving that makes a gift valuable. One may not be able to afford a lavish gift, but one can always make the recipient feel cared for by the manner of giving. “The Value of Giving” will be in next post. Han #69821 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:59 pm Subject: Articles on Anatta TGrand458@... Hi Sobhana IMO, it is hard to have an article that merely specializes in anatta. Anatta cannot be separated from the "conditionality laws" that also incorporate impermanence, affliction, and no-self. That being said, two recommendations. #1 of course is the Sutta Pitaka but obviously that is hard work to decipher. There is an excellent book called "The Seven Contemplations of Insight." I believe it is an excellent explanatory treatise on conditionality / no-self. Lastly... Anatta is not well realized by trying to focus of anatta. It is, rather, focusing on -- conditionality, i.e., "cause and effect principles" that exposes phenomena as being anatta. The following quote is from one of my favorite authors... If everything arises due to something else, what can be said to be self.? TG In a message dated 3/21/2007 2:39:39 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, shennieca@... writes: Hi all, Can anyone recommend a good article on Anatta? Which Bhikkhu has written the best essay on Anatta? Thank you. Regards, Sobhana #69822 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:38 pm Subject: Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > It is also a characteristic of the unconditined dhamma, don't forget.:-) James: I didn't forget ;-)). This is a matter of some controversy and I am uncomfortable with assigning the characteristic of anatta to nibbana. This is for two reasons: 1. The Buddha taught that nibbana is beyond all characeristics and descriptions; 2. The Buddha always taught the anatta characteristic in regards to the five khandas, and never specifically to nibbana. However, I don't have a strong position on this matter because I don't know very much about nibbana.:-) > > Ken H > Metta, James #69823 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta TGrand458@... Hi James In a message dated 3/21/2007 6:39:10 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: James: I didn't forget ;-)). This is a matter of some controversy and I am uncomfortable with assigning the characteristic of anatta to nibbana. This is for two reasons: 1. The Buddha taught that nibbana is beyond all characeristics and descriptions; 2. The Buddha always taught the anatta characteristic in regards to the five khandas, and never specifically to nibbana. TG: Is anatta a characteristic or is it merely the lack of a characteristic? I view it as the latter. The quote of the Buddha where he says -- All conditioned things are impermanent, all conditioned things are suffering, all THINGS are not-self -- is often interpreted to mean that Nibbana is included in ONLY the last (anatta) category due to the lack of the "conditioned" proviso. Just a thought. TG #69824 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta buddhatrue Hi TG (Ken H. and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > TG: Anyone using this sutta as an excuse to try to say the Buddha did not > teach no-self is either utterly foolish or very dishonest! Probably both. > And certainly not able to understand no-self. Hi TG (and Ken H. and Howard), After some more research into this matter, I do believe that Thanissaro is very confused about the Buddha's teaching of anatta and that he consistently misrepresents it. Also, I agree with the concern and warning that Ken H. has in regards to the web site: Access to Insight. That web site should come with the disclaimer that "Anatta is misrepresented here!" ;-)) Thanissaro writes in his introduction to the Alagaddupama Sutta: "Thus it is important to focus on how the Dhamma is taught: Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and then to recommend dropping them." This is entirely not true. The Buddha does recommend for all of his disciples to ASSUME that there is no self in the five khandas or outside of the five khandas in the universe, cosmos: "Then there is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma assumes about form: 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' "He assumes about feeling: 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' "He assumes about perception: 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' "He assumes about fabrications: 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' "He assumes about what seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect: 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' "He assumes about the view-position — 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity': 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' "Seeing thus, he is not agitated over what is not present." I'm not quite sure how Thanissaro could translate this sutta and then write in the introduction the exact opposite of what the sutta states. It is very perplexing. But, I am also with Howard that I couldn't and wouldn't say just how much this teaching of Thanissaro hurts or corrupts the Dhamma. The teaching of anatta is very difficult to comprehend and is misunderstood by practically everyone who doesn't directly experience it- which includes most of us! ;-)) If you would like to express your concern to the editor of Access to Insight (which I am going to do), you can e-mail John Bullitt at: ideas@... or john@... Metta, James #69825 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:25 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional scottduncan2 Dear Ken and Robert, I agree with Howard: This is an interesting discussion. Rob K: "This is where we see the teaching very differently. When there is killing there are elements: one of them IS akusala citta, and that is not wrong view to say that. There is no need to avoid using concepts such as people etc. , what is critical is to look at the underlying views. True someone might be talking about killing and think there are really beings and self, but that is not the fault of the language, it is that the paramattha dhammas underlying their statemnets are rooted in miccha-ditthi. However we don't get to right view by going to another extreme and trying to avoid relating conventional actions to paramattha." I was just reading the Commentary to the Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta, which notes: "4. Herein, firstly, in the detailed exposition of the first section: as regards the passage beginning killing living beings is unwholesome (panatipato kho avuso akusalam), "unwholesome" should be understood by way of the occurrence of unwholesomeness, or as what is opposed to the wholesome, which is to be dealt with below (Section 6). As to characteristic, it is blameworthy and has painful result, or it is defiled. This, in the first place, is the comment upon the general terms here. But as regards the particular terms, the phrase killing living beings means the slaughter of a living being, the destruction of a living being. And here a living being (pana) is, according to ordinary usage, a being (satta); in the ultimate sense it is the life faculty. "Killing living beings" is the volition to kill on the part of one who is aware, in respect of a living being, that it is a living being, and which (volition), manifesting itself through one or the other of the doors of body and speech, initiates activity resulting in the cutting off of the life faculty. In relation to beings such as animals, etc., which lack moral qualities (guna), it is less blameworthy in respect of small living beings and more blameworthy in respect of beings with large bodies. Why? Because of the magnitude of the effort involved. And when the effort involved is equal, because of the magnitude of the object (the being killed). In relation to beings such as humans, etc., who possess moral qualities, it is less blameworthy in respect of beings with few good qualities and more blameworthy in respect of beings with great qualities. When the size of the body and moral qualities are equal, however, it is less blameworthy when the defilements and activity are mild, and more blameworthy when they are strong: so it should be understood. There are five constituents for this (act of killing a living being): a living being, awareness that it is a living being, the mind to kill, activity, and the death (of the being) thereby. There are six means: one's own person, command, a missile, a fixed contrivance, a magical spell, supernormal power. To explore this matter in detail, however, would involve too much diffuseness. Therefore we shall not explore it in detail, or any other subject similar in kind. Those who wish to go into the matter may do so by looking it up in the Samantapasadika, the Vinaya Commentary.[8] As to object: Killing living beings, because it has the life faculty as object, has a formation as object. Taking what is not given has beings as object or formations as object. Misconduct in sensual pleasures has formations as object by way of tangible object; but some say it also has beings as object. False speech has beings or formations as object; likewise malicious speech. Harsh speech has only beings as object. Gossip has either beings or formations as object by way of the seen, heard, sensed and cognized; likewise covetousness. Ill will has only beings as object. Wrong view has formations as object by way of the states belonging to the three planes (of being). As to feeling: Killing living beings has painful feeling; for although kings, seeing a robber, say laughingly, "Go and execute him," their volition consummating the action is associated only with pain. Taking what is not given has three feelings. Misconduct (in sensual pleasures) has two feelings, pleasant and neutral, but in the mind which consummates the action there is no neutral feeling. False speech has three feelings; likewise malicious speech. Harsh speech has painful feeling only. Gossip has three feelings. Covetousness has two feelings, pleasant and neutral; likewise wrong view. Ill will has painful feeling only. As to root: Killing living beings has two roots, by way of hate and delusion; taking what is not given, by way of hate and delusion or by way of greed and delusion; misconduct, by way of greed and delusion; false speech, by way of hate and delusion or by way of greed and delusion; likewise for malicious speech and gossip; harsh speech, by way of hate and delusion. Covetousness has one root, by way of delusion; likewise ill will. Wrong view has two roots, by way of greed and delusion." Sorry about the length; the passage seemed relevant. Sincerely, Scott. #69826 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:45 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional rjkjp1 Thanks Scott Very relevant I think. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > > As to root: Killing living beings has two roots, by way of hate and > delusion; taking what is not given, by way of hate and delusion or by > way of greed and delusion; misconduct, by way of greed and delusion; > false speech, by way of hate and delusion or by way of greed and > delusion; likewise for malicious speech and gossip; harsh speech, by > way of hate and delusion. Covetousness has one root, by way of > delusion; likewise ill will. Wrong view has two roots, by way of > greed and delusion." > > Sorry about the length; the passage seemed relevant. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #69827 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta buddhatrue Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > TG: Is anatta a characteristic or is it merely the lack of a > characteristic? I view it as the latter. > > The quote of the Buddha where he says -- All conditioned things are > impermanent, all conditioned things are suffering, all THINGS are not-self -- is > often interpreted to mean that Nibbana is included in ONLY the last (anatta) > category due to the lack of the "conditioned" proviso. > > Just a thought. > > TG Yeah, I know what you are getting at, but this interpretation is based on assumption. As you wrote to Sobhana, anatta is best understood in terms of conditionality. The Buddha doesn't directly apply the teaching of anatta, understood in terms of conditionality, to nibbana. To my way of thinking, to categorize nibbana as "non- self" or as "self" is to limit it. Nibbana is beyond all categorizations. This topic is explored some in the article, "Nibbana as Living Experience": "It is significant that dhammaa was not used in the first two statements. The purpose seems to be to exclude Nibbana which is permanent and blissful. Therefore we can surmise a condition that is permanent and blissful, but it is not a self. That state is Nibbana. It has to be a dimension completely different from all that is worldly. The permanence that is conjectured here has no reference to time and space, and the bliss that is spoken of has no reference to feelings, vedanaa." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/desilva/wheel407.html James: First, this is based on an assumption- you have to surmise what the Buddha mean by changing the phraseology- and assumptions are not facts. Secondly, it doesn't make any sense is say that nibbana is permanent, but not in regards to time, and blissful, but not in regards to feelings. The logic falls apart at this point. One note to deeply consider: Vsm 454. A note of caution has to be added to this interpretation, as DhA III 407 explains: tattha sabbe dhammaa ti pa~ncakkhandhaa va adhippetaa ti, "what is meant by all dhammas is precisely the five aggregates." So, according to the Vism., when the Buddha said "sabbe dhammaa anatta" he meant that the five aggregates are non-self (obviously excluding nibbana). Metta, James #69828 From: "colette" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. ksheri3 Hi Nina, I think we should consider using the Break pedal: > and this can > condition many kinds of bad deeds colette: this is what I was asking sarah about, dirty/clean, right/wrong, kusala/akusala. You have misinterpreted the rising of Wrong View as being that which is not Right View -- do I see shades of a stratified view, a class structure here? Lets look at Terri Shiavo, according to the politicos of the Bush clan Terri Shiavo was conscious and on her way to recovery as long as the conditions existed that gave her that opportunity which means that she had to pay health care workers, doctors, nurses, nursing homes, drug cartels (pharmecuticle = drug), insurance companies, banks, a whole list of conditions that had to be gratified in order for her to possess consciousness and the hope to get better, back on her feet instead of living on her back. Both Wrong and Right View are given the opportunities to arise and to dominate the conscious. There certainly are many avenues, rue, to achieve this goal, location, location, location. The "conditioning" process is all about those avenues to the goal. May we ask Buddha IF he was and is enlightened THEN why would he want to stand up and leave the Bodhi Tree? Now the question becomes: Was the Buddha truely enlightened or did the Buddha lack things, knowledge? > and this can > condition many kinds of bad deeds which will bring unpleasant > results. colette: the obtainment of Wrong View does not condition anything. Wrong View is just that Wrong View. Hallucinations are nothing more than hallucinations just as American Dreams are nothing more than Dreams dreampt by an American. There is no svabhava in a dream, nor in a hallucination, nor is there svabhava in Wrong View, just as there may not be any svabhava in Right View. Is this not a kusala, pleasant, result. The other day as I was walking in the alleys here in my neighborhood I ran into two King Size and two regular size Pacific Coast, goose down pillows freshly laid on a garbage can. I brought them home and AM MORE THAN GREATFUL FOR THE BLESSING THAT I RECEIVED AFTER ALL THESE YEARS WITHOUT ANY PILLOW. My roommates are totally appalled that I would bring them into the basement and to have the nerve to use them. They yell at me, they tell their friends and mock me right in front of them. Why is my kusala viewed as akusala? I mean come on, you sit up on high issueing a trickle down effect but you lack the ability to transform why kusala does not have svabhava. So long as one is attached to wrong view there is no way to > become free from the cycle of birth and death.> colette: ABSURD, REDICULOUS. One is linked to the wheel of life by more than this simplistic definition of Right and Wrong View. I hope ya get my points a little better here. "The teaching of the eternal element or dhatu as the basis of all the dharmas, allowing the possibility of seeing in it a single eternal svabhava, was taken differently by different schools. The Yogacarins understood the dhatu to refer to the alaya-vijnana, or substratum consciousness. The Madhyamikas understood the dhatu to refer to the tathagata-garbha, or Buddha-nature, taken to be the emptiness of the mind. Buddhist schools sought to avoid emphasizing this teaching in any way which could be seen as holding a unitary eternal svabhava, apparently because of the similarity of this idea to the Hindu atman doctrine." toodles, colette Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4) #69829 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Ken) - In a message dated 3/21/07 7:38:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Ken H., > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" > wrote: > > > > >It is also a characteristic of the unconditined dhamma, don't > forget.:-) > > James: I didn't forget ;-)). This is a matter of some controversy > and I am uncomfortable with assigning the characteristic of anatta to > nibbana. This is for two reasons: 1. The Buddha taught that nibbana > is beyond all characeristics and descriptions; 2. The Buddha always > taught the anatta characteristic in regards to the five khandas, and > never specifically to nibbana. > > However, I don't have a strong position on this matter because I > don't know very much about nibbana.:-) > > > > >Ken H > > > > Metta, > James > ========================= I do think there are things to be said that can support nibbana being anatta. First of all, being anatta doesn't involve the having of a feature, but the lacking of one. Secondly, to be anatta has several aspects, some of which I think make easy sense for nibbana: 1) Nibbana is impersonal, 2) Nibbana is not the self of anything - not its core, as, for example, the Hindus conceive of Brahman being a world self and, in it role as atman, the self of all beings, and 3) Nibbana is without identity, being beyond all conditions. As for anatta only being applied to the khandhas, I take "Sabbe dhamma anatta" to apply to nibbana; that is, I take the use of 'dhamma' instead of 'sankhara' to not be accidental. With metta, Howard #69830 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Paramattha and conventional rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert (and Ken) - > > I applaud your presentation in the following of the relationship > between conventional and ultimate. It is clear, and, to me, refreshing! :-) > Hi Howard Maybe a touch of zen "before studying Dhamma mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. When learning Dhamma mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers. Later mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers again" here is something to enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ul3xNSz5g Robert #69831 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:30 pm Subject: The Ability to Understand! bhikkhu5 Friends: What is the Understanding Ability (Paññâ Indriya)? The Blessed Buddha once said: What, Bhikkhus, is the Ability of Understanding ? Here, Bhikkhus, any Noble Disciple who is both intelligent and wise; is endowed with understanding of cause and effect, is endowed with understanding of arising and ceasing, is endowed with understanding of conditioned dependency, which is Noble, penetrative, & leading to the complete irreversible elimination of any and all Suffering... He understands it, as it really is: This is Suffering! He understands it, as it really is: This is the Cause of Suffering! He understands it, as it really is: This is the Ceasing of Suffering! He understands it, as it really is: This is the Way to End Suffering! This is called the Ability of Understanding ! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:199] section 48: The Abilities. 10: Analysis ... More on this supreme Comprehension: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Understanding_is_the_Chief.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/n_r/pannaa.htm Understanding is knowing & seeing the 4 Noble Truths! Ignorance is not knowing & not seeing the 4 Noble Truths! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <.....> #69832 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana sarahprocter... Hi Sobhana & all, Thanks for introducing the following account which was a favourite of a friend of ours who died (Alan D/Phra Dhammadharo): --- Sobhana wrote: > One day while the Buddha was walking in town with Ananda, Buddha saw > an old couple begging on the streets and Buddha stopped for awhile. > Ananda asked the Buddha why did Buddha stopped and Buddha said, ”‘Look > at that old couple, poor and begging on the street, they used to be rich > people but because they were lazy when they were young and they did not > know how to run their parent’s business, they became broke. If they were > to be hard-working they would have been rich and also if they were to > study the sutta and dhamma when they were young, they could at least > have attained Sotapanna today instead of being beggers”. > > That’s how I remember the sutta, it is not word by word. .... S: This is the acount of Mahaadana, the treasurer's son and his wife. It is told in the commentary to Dhammapada 155 and 156. Here is a brief summary of the account: From Dict. of Pali Proper Names: "1. Mahâdhana. The son of the Treasurer of Benares. His parents possessed eighty crores, and, for all education, he learnt music and singing. He married the daughter of an equally rich family and of similar education. After the death of their parents, they were very rich. One night, as the husband was on his way from the palace, some knaves tempted him to drink. He soon fell a victim to the habit and all his wealth was squandered. Then he spent his wife's money, and finally sold all his belongings, and used to go about begging, a potsherd in his hand. One day the Buddha, seeing him waiting outside the refectory for leavings of food, smiled. In answer to Ananda, who asked him the reason for his smile, the Buddha said that there was a man who had had the power of becoming chief Treasurer or attaining arahantship, if he did but use his opportunities, but he was now reduced to beggary, like a heron in a dried up pond. DhA.iii.129ff." .... S: I tried without success to find a link to a longer version, but found this: http://www.mahindarama.com/e-library/mangalasutta2.html "Mahadhana Setthi Putta ............ In Benares there was a rich family who had an only son named Mahadhana Setthi Putta. The child was wholly neglected concerning his education and general upbringing, for the parents considered it an irksome task to look after their son’s own welfare and did not believe in having necessary control over him. As a result, the son was given a free hand to do what he liked and thus his life was wasted away in amusement and idleness. In the same city there lived another wealthy family with an only daughter. The parents of the young girl had the similar idea and had the same way of treating their daughter as the parents of Mahadhana Setthi Putta for they believed their immense wealth would be more than ample to provide their daughter with a life of ease and comfort. These two wealthy families were united by the marriage of their son and daughter. After the parents of both families had died, all the wealth and inheritance went to Mahadhana Setthi Putta and his wife. They lived a very carefree life and as it was all theirs, without any restriction, they soon fell an easy victim to vices; drank, gambled, danced and entertained lavishly until all their wealth was drained away. Then they sold the house they lived in, and even the very bed they slept on. They slept on the wayside and begged for food from around the temple. One day they came for their usual round for alms in the temple where the Lord Buddha stayed. Thereupon, a faint smile lit up the Lord Buddha’s face, when the two beggars came into view, and Ananda Thera noticing it enquired the reason for the smile and the Lord answered, “If, in their young days this man and his wife were to look after their wealth properly, and perform their duties accordingly, they would have been the wealthiest family in Benares. But if both of them were to abandon their wealth for the sake of renunciation, the victory for the man would be his attainment of Arahantship and the woman her Anagami state. If then in their later age they were to take good care of their wealth, they would become the second wealthiest family in Benares and in the course of their renunciation the man would attain the state of Sakadagami and his wife Sotapatti. Now they are human wrecks and the opportunity of enjoying the fruits of their labour in the bliss that is mundane and supramundane is lost to them forever." ...... S: This is a pretty good summary of the account. At the end, the Buddha says (Burlingame transl.): " 'But now he has fallen away from the wealth of a layman and he has likewise fallen away from the estate of a religious. He has become like a heron in a dried-up pond.' So sayijng, he pronounced the following Stanzas, 155 They that have not led the holy life, they that have not obtained wealth in time of youth, Perish like worn-out herons in a pond from which the fish have disappeared. 156 They that have not led the holy life, they that have not obtained wealth in time of youth, Lie like worn-out bows, bewailing the times that are past." ***** Sobhana:>So, the > Buddha said “if they had been hard-working, and if they have been > following the dhamma”. Why didn’t the Buddha just tell Ananda, “The poor > couple has been conditioned to be beggars”? Why did the Buddha tell > Ananda that the old couple made poor choices when they were in their > younger days? Aren’t choices conditioned?? .... S: ;-) I like your comments and I once raised just the same questions on this same account!! Yes, all their choices were conditioned and yes, there were conditions for them not to listen or attend to any wisdom -- of the conventional or dhamma-kind --, and this was the result. As KenH and others have been stressing, in the end there are just different paramattha dhammas conditioned in this way. However, if we think that therefore the path is hopeless or pre-destined or nothing can be done, then this kind of thinking in itself will be a condition not to listen, not to consider, not to develop any understanding. So, I think it helps a lot to appreciate that wise reflection, awareness and understanding can arise now of any dhammas that are apparent including seeing, visible object, thinking, confusion or anything else. Please continue to persist with your comments and questions. It seems like an impossible paradox when we appreciate that all sankhara dhammas are conditioned and yet we say there is a way, there is a path. We can't find the solution just by thinking, but when awareness develops of present dhammas, the answer becomes clear, I think. Metta, Sarah ========== #69833 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (22) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, The following is a good account of the Velaama Sutta, AN 9s,20. I think it's also relevant to discussions on the broader scope of dana, precepts and so on: .... --- han tun wrote: >This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. "The Anguttara Nikaya (A.iv,392-95) records a fabulous alms-giving conducted by the Bodhisatta when he was born as a brahman named Velama. Lavish gifts of silver, gold, elephants, cows, carriages, etc., not to mention food, drink and clothing, were distributed among everybody who came forward to receive them. But this open-handed munificence was not very valuable as far as merit was concerned because there were no worthy recipients. It is said to be more meritorious to feed one person with right view, a stream-enterer (sotapanna), than to give great alms such as that given by Velama." .... S: The Buddha is speaking to Anathapindika who had given away all his wealth through his generosity and was now living in poverty. However, he continued to serve the Buddha and bhikkhus. From the Khadirangara Jataka, 40: The Buddha asks him if gifts are still being given at his house. " 'Yes, sir,' said he; 'but there's only a little sour husk-porridge, left over from yesterday.' 'Be not distressed, householder, at the thought that you can only offer what is unpalatable. If the heart be good, the food given to Buddhas, pacceka Buddhas, and their disciples, cannot but be good too. And why? - Because of the greatness of the fruit thereof." He then recited the Velama Sutta. So back to the Velama Sutta where it says (PTS transl.): "For, though brahman Velama gave that very rich gift, greater would have been the fruit thereof, had he fed one person of right view (di.t.thisampanna"m. Comy.: 'dassanasampanna"m sotaapanna"m) Lily de Silva's summary (which you quoted) continues: "It is more meritorious to feed one once-returner than a hundred stream enterers. Next in order come non-returners, arahants, Paccekabuddhas and Sammasambuddhas. Feeding the Buddha and the Sangha is more meritorious than feeding the Buddha alone. It is even more meritorious to construct a monastery for the general use of the Sangha of the four quarters of all times. Taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha is better still. Abiding by the Five Precepts is even more valuable. But better still is the cultivation of metta, loving-kindness, and best of all, the insight into impermanence, which leads to Nibbana." ***** Metta and appreciation for your offerings, Han! Sarah ======= #69834 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 3. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, This passage about 'Searching for Dukkha' is meaningful. Yes, we're searching for dukkha all day, every day! I'd like to re-post it here for anyone who may have skipped over it the first time! Thanks for sharing it! --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > (quote from Kh Sujin continued) > > Whenever we experience a pleasant object through the eyes we continue > to search food for dukkha. We search as it were for dukkha in the > cycle of birth and death. Whenever there is hearing and we are > attached to sound we are already searching for dukkha. Attachment is > the cause of dukkha in the cycle. We never stop searching for dukkha. > Through the nose we smell fragrant odours, the scent of flowers, of > perfums, and then we keep on searching for dukkha all around, > everywhere. We search for dukkha when we taste flavour through the > tongue, or when we experience tangible object through the bodysense. > When we think of different subjects don't we search for dukkha ? We > are searching for dukkha everywhere from morning until night. ... S: Very true, but better to know it (at least in theory!!). .... >If we > don't realize this we cannot be freed from the cycle of birth and death. > Before defilements can be eradicated, before detachment, alobha, can > arise and become powerful, so that selfishness can be given up, we > should know the characteristic of the cause of dukkha, the food for > dukkha. This is lobha, attachment, which searches all around. Lobha > is the cause of dukkha whereas alobha, detachment, is the cause of > happiness. .... S: And of course, this is the opposite of how we're used to viewing happiness. ... >When one has less attachment to the objects which appear > through the six doors is there not less searching for dukkha? The > next life will be again like this life and the cycle will be very > long if paññå does not know the characteristics of realities as > they are. .... S: Yes, on and on and on, life after life of searching for dukkha if panna doesn't begin to develop now. .... >Paññå should be developed to the degree that it realizes > the four noble Truths and enlightenment is attained. > In the next life there will be happiness and sorrow, and this depends > on kamma. If one has right understanding about kamma and one has > determination for kusala one will not be negligent.” > > These were Khun Sujin's words. ..... Metta, Sarah ======== #69835 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sobhana wrote: > > Hi all, > > Can anyone recommend a good article on Anatta? Which Bhikkhu has written the best essay on Anatta? Hi Sobhana Try the essay "Soullessness - Anattalakkana Sutta" by Bhikkhu Dhammapala in Wheel Publication no. 132/133/134 "Touching the Essence: Six Lectures on Buddhism" by Bhikkhu Dhammapala (Henri van Zeyst). Best wishes Andrew #69836 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:47 am Subject: Rupas Ch 3, no 6. nilovg Hi Howard, ---------- Nina, you may find this post of mine remarkable! ;-) ------- N: I think you hang around already too long in dsg, beware ;-)) ------- quote: The sense-organs themselves through which the sense-objects are > experienced are rúpas that can only be known through the mind-door. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I find that to be indubitably so! ------------------------------------- > The five sense-organs are the bases (vatthus) or places of origin of > the corresponding sense-cognitions. ... ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, places of origin. I use the terminology "locational rupas". When there is seeing, the visible object seems locationally associated with the area of the conventional eye, though the biologists tell us the actual sensing is in the brain. In terms of experience, i.e., phenomenologically, it "fans out from the eye area". Likewise, a sound, whether seemingly near or far, is always locationally associated with the conventional ears. What you wrote here, Nina, makes good sense to me from my phenomenalist perspective. === N: The brains play their part, but so does the whole body, such as the blood, nerves etc. This is not denied. The Abhidhamma teaches about rupas to show conditions, they are conditioned dhammas and herein its purpose is different from biology. Interesting what Sarah wrote about Ayurveda. I think there is much of value in Ayurveda. When we understand what the Abhidhamma teaches and it goes into the very bone, it helps direct awareness. Then it is not necessary to think about the place of origin of visible object or sound. They appear one at a time and they can be object of awareness and understanding. There may be conditions to think of the source of sound or of the ears, I do, and at that moment there is thinking, not hearing. We can learn the difference. Nina. #69837 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:54 am Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional ken_aitch Hi Robert, ------------------ <. . .. RK: > This is where we see the teaching very differently. When there is killing there are elements: one of them IS akusala citta, and that is not wrong view to say that. -------------------- `Killing' can be a concept that refers to a paramattha dhamma, in which case there can be no disagreement with what you say. It can also be a concept that refers to other concepts, and that is when the confusion begins. ---------------------------- RK: > There is no need to avoid using concepts such as people etc. , what is critical is to look at the underlying views. True someone might be talking about killing and think there are really beings and self, but that is not the fault of the language, it is that the paramattha dhammas underlying their statemnets are rooted in miccha-ditthi. However we don't get to right view by going to another extreme and trying to avoid relating conventional actions to paramattha. ------------------------------ You and I have no interest in formal vipassana meditation because we know that dhammas (sati and panna, for example) cannot be made to arise on command. Isn't it the same with akusala kamma patha? There is no ritual (e.g., "point the gun and pull the trigger") by which cetana cetasika can be made to arise in the form, akusala kamma patha. When I remember the "all" (the loka; the world of the presently arisen paramattha dhammas) there is no hesitation or confusion. Difficulties arise, however, when I am quizzed as to my viewpoint on abortion, euthanasia, self defense and so on. Those issues are best left to the conventional sciences, which deal exclusively with concepts. The more I understand the All (and the various dhammas that are capable of arising in it), the more likely it is that kusala kamma will be conditioned in any given circumstance. I am not really bothered by arguments for and against abortion and the other tricky concepts. Does this clear things up? Or is there still something in my understanding that you disagree with? It is good to discuss these matters. Ken H #69838 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (24) nilovg Dear Han, This is a good part by Lily. She stresses the social value: Lily stresses the manner of giving: When the citta is pure and unselfish, the receiver may be able to sense this when he receives a gift. Khun Sujin in her Perfections writes about the perfection of mettaa as the foundation of generosity: < Aiming for the benefit of all beings which is the foundation of the practice of dåna, síla and so on, is called loving-kindness, mettå.... We read in the Commentary to the “Theragåthå”: “Aiming for the benefit of all beings which is the foundation of the practice of dåna, síla and so on, is called loving-kindness, mettå.” Thus, this is another aspect of mettå. People who perform generous deeds may not investigate their cittas at such moments, they may not realize that they give because of mettå. It is their nature to give and therefore, they perform generous deeds, they give things away for the benefit and happiness of others. If they consider their kusala citta they will know that mettå is the foundation of their generosity. When they abstain from ill deeds through body and speech the foundation of their kusala is also mettå. They do not want to cause suffering and distress to others by their actions or speech. The Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct”, in the “Miscellaneous Sayings” explains with regard to each of the perfections to which kind of akusala it is opposed. We read about generosity: “Further, giving is opposed to greed, hatred, and delusion, since it applies the qualities of non-greed, non-hatred, and non-delusion to gifts, recipients, and the fruits of giving, respectively.” As we read, the perfection of generosity is opposed to akusala, to lobha, dosa and moha, because when one is generous and accumulates the perfection of generosity, one practises the quality of non- attachment to one’s gift.> (end quote). Nina. Op 22-mrt-2007, om 0:28 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Sahattha deti: one should give with one's own hand. The personal > involvement in the act of giving is greatly beneficial. This > promotes rapport between the > donor and donee and that is the social value of giving. Society is > welded in unity with > care and concern for one another when generosity is exercised with > a warm sense of > personal involvement. #69839 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. nilovg Dear Colette, we just think differently about the teachings. You mention different schools about the teaching of dhatu, element. I cannot agree. Nina. Op 22-mrt-2007, om 4:34 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > So long as one is attached to wrong view there is no way to > > become free from the cycle of birth and death.> > > colette: ABSURD, REDICULOUS. One is linked to the wheel of life by > more than this simplistic definition of Right and Wrong View. #69840 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 3. nilovg Hi Sarah, When Kh Sujin explained about the three rounds of knowing the four noble Truths, she stressed as regards the first round that the four noble Truths should be thoroughly understood before going to the second round: kicca ~naa.na, the development of satipatthaana. She said that the four noble Truths must be seen as relating to the present moment, and as to the second Truth she asked whether we were searching for something, adding that we search for somehting all day long. She also mentioned this in Kaeng Kracang. Nina. Op 22-mrt-2007, om 8:28 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > S: Yes, on and on and on, life after life of searching for dukkha > if panna > doesn't begin to develop now. #69841 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha and conventional nilovg Dear Ken h, see my post to Han. quote: < we read in the Commentary to the “Theragåthå”: “Aiming for the benefit of all beings which is the foundation of the practice of dåna, síla and so on, is called loving-kindness, mettå.” Metta is a foundation for siila and then we do not need to tire ourselves with arguments for and against abortion and other concepts. Is there right at this moment metta? No matter in what circumstances? The object of metta are living beings. But I think you agree. Nina. Op 22-mrt-2007, om 8:54 heeft ken_aitch het volgende geschreven: > I am not really bothered by arguments for and against > abortion and the other tricky concepts. > > Does this clear things up? Or is there still something in my > understanding that you disagree with? It is good to discuss these > matters. #69842 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (22) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I also thank you very much for highlighting the Velaama Sutta. It is very interesting to note the ascending order of merits obtained. (1) offerings to stream-enterer (2) offerings to once-returner (3) offerings to non-returner (4) offerings to arahant (5) offerings to Paccekabuddha (6) offerings to Sammasambuddha (7) offerings to Buddha and the Sangha (8) construction of a monastery (9) taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha (10) abiding by the Five Precepts (11) the cultivation of metta (12) the insight into impermanence. I also thank you for referring to Khadirangara Jataka, 40. I have Burmese version of this Jataka, and I could appreciate the faith, courage and determination of the donor in this Jataka, who stepped on the obstructing pit of charcoal fire to make offerings to a Paccekabuddha. Respectfully, Han #69843 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (24) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind contributions. Apart from what has been written by Lily de Silva I learn additional good points from your post. “People who perform generous deeds may not investigate their cittas at such moments, and they may not realize that they give because of mettå. It is their nature to give and therefore, they perform generous deeds, they give things away for the benefit and happiness of others. If they consider their kusala citta they will know that mettå is the foundation of their generosity. Thus, this is another aspect of mettå.” “With regard to each of the perfections to which kind of akusala it is opposed, giving is opposed to greed, hatred, and delusion, since it applies the qualities of non-greed, non-hatred, and non-delusion to gifts, recipients, and the fruits of giving, respectively.” Respectfully, Han #69844 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha and conventional upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 3/22/07 12:23:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Robert (and Ken) - > > > > I applaud your presentation in the following of the > relationship > >between conventional and ultimate. It is clear, and, to me, > refreshing! :-) > > > Hi Howard > Maybe a touch of zen > "before studying Dhamma mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers. > When learning Dhamma mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are > no longer rivers. Later mountains are mountains and rivers are rivers > again" ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know that quote, and it is *perfect* in this context! :-) ---------------------------------------- > here is something to enjoy > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ul3xNSz5g > Robert > > ========================= With metta, Howard #69845 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:27 am Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana sarahprocter... Hi TG (& Nina), You addressed your message below to me, but I think it was intended for Nina (in reply to hers). Metta, Sarah --- TGrand458@... wrote: > In a message dated 3/20/2007 4:04:02 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > Hi TG, > You can imagine that you have me here :-)) > I shall avoid long debates, but allow me to give you one quote from > the Abhidhamma to show that the Abhidhamma deals with the cittas of > daily life. > > > TG:> Hi Sarah > > Your list from the Vibhanga is great. But your statement above is > exactly > what I mean about theory being taken as fact. I.E. -- "The cittas of > daily > life." The Suttas never address things that way. Its sort of the > "atomic > theory" of citta. > > TG > > PS, I'm not sure what "imagining that I have you here" means. Anyway, > Best > wishes! #69846 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:09 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (46) nichiconn dear friends, Bhaddaa, part six of six-- arahatta.m pana patvaa taavadeva pabbajja.m yaaci; satthaa tassaa pabbajja.m anujaani; saa bhikkhunupassaya.m gantvaana pabbajitvaa phalasukhena nibbaanasukhena ca viitinaamentii attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa udaanavasena- 107. "luunakesii pa"nkadharii, ekasaa.tii pure cari.m; avajje vajjamatinii, vajje caavajjadassinii. 108. "Divaavihaaraa nikkhamma, gijjhakuu.tamhi pabbate; addasa.m viraja.m buddha.m, bhikkhusa"nghapurakkhata.m. 109. "Nihacca jaa.nu.m vanditvaa, sammukhaa a~njali.m aka.m; ehi bhaddeti ma.m avaca, saa me aasuupasampadaa. 110. "Ci.n.naa a"ngaa ca magadhaa, vajjii kaasii ca kosalaa; anakaa pa.n.naasa vassaani, ra.t.thapi.n.da.m abhu~njaha.m. 111. "Pu~n~na.m vata pasavi bahu.m, sappa~n~no vataaya.m upaasako; yo bhaddaaya ciivara.m adaasi, vippamuttaaya sabbaganthehii"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. When she attained Arahatship, she immediately asked to go forth. The Teacher gave permission for her to go forth. She went to the bhikkhuniis' monastery and went forth. She spent her time [experiencing] the happiness of the fruition state and the happiness of quenching. Looking over her attainment, she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: 107. With hair cut off, wearing dust, formerly I wandered, having [only] only one robe, thinking there was a fault where there was no fault and seeing no fault where there was a fault. 108. Going out from my daytime resting place on Vulture Peak mountain, I saw the stainless Buddha attended by the Order of Bhikkhus. 109. Having bent my knee, having paid homage to him, putting my raised hands together, I stood face to face with him. "Come, Bhaddaa," he said to me. That was my full ordination. 110. I wandered over A"nga and Magadha, Vajii, Kaasi, and Kosala. For fifty years without debt, I have enjoyed the alms of the kingdoms. 111. Truly he produced much merit. Truly wise was that lay follower who gave a robe to Bhaddaa, who is now completely freed from all bonds. RD: Hairless, dirt-laden and half-clad -- so fared I formerly, deeming that harmless things Held harm, nor was I 'ware of harm In many things wherein, in sooth, harm lay. (107) Then forth I went from siesta in the shade Up to the Vulture's Peak, * and there I saw The Buddha, the Immaculate, begirt And followed by the Bhikkhu-company. (108) Low on my knees I worshipped, with both hands Adoring. 'Come, Bhaddaa!' the Master said! Thereby to me was ordination given. (109) Lo! fifty years have I a pilgrim been, In Anga, Magadha and in Vajjii, In Kaasii and the land of Kosala, Nought owing, living on the people's alms. (110) And great the merit by that layman gained, Sagacious man, who gave Bhaddaa a robe - Bhaddaa who now (captive once more to gear) Is wholly free from bondage of the mind. (111) * It is not impossible that Saavatthi had its Vulture's Peak (Gijjhakuu.ta) as well as Raajagaha in Magadha; but the latter peak is the one usually mentioned, and it seems more probable that Curlyhair's legend has been (badly) fitted on to another Bhaddaa's Psalm. Cf. Ps. xlii., also Ps. xlvii., lxiii. The commentator is silent on the point. Tattha luunakesiiti luunaa lu~ncitaa kesaa mayhanti luunakesii, niga.n.thesu pabbajjaaya taala.t.thinaa lu~ncitakesaa, ta.m sandhaaya vadati. Pa"nkadhariiti dantaka.t.thassa akhaadanena dantesu malapa"nkadhaara.nato pa"nkadharii. Ekasaa.tiiti niga.n.thacaarittavasena ekasaa.tikaa. Pure carinti pubbe niga.n.thii hutvaa eva.m vicari.m. Avajje vajjamatiniiti nhaanucchaadanadantaka.t.thakhaadanaadike anavajje saavajjasa~n~nii. Vajje caavajjadassiniiti maanamakkhapalaasavipallaasaadike saavajje anavajjadi.t.thii. 107. There, with hair cut off (luuna-kesii) means: with my hair cut off (luunaa), pulled out (lu~ncitaa). It is said with reference to them that when going forth among the Jains they pull out their hair with a palm kernel. Wearing dust (pa"nka-dharii) means: wearing dust (pa"nkadharii) through not chewing on a tooth stick, because of carrying dirt and dut (mala-pa"nka-dhaaranato) in her teeth. Having [only] one robe (eka-saa.tii) means: one who wears one robe (eka-saa.tikaa) because of the practice of the Jains. Formerly I wandered means: having been a Jain previously, I wandered in this way. Thinking there was fault (vajjamantini) where there was no fault (avajje) means: being of the view there is no fault (anavajja-di.t.thii) where there was a fault (saavajje) such as hypocrisy, spite, or hallucination. Divaavihaaraa nikkhammaati attano divaavihaara.t.thaanato nikkhamitvaa. Ayampi .thitamajjhanhikavelaaya.m therena samaagataa tassa pa~nhassa vissajjanena dhammadesanaaya ca nihatamaanadabbaa pasannamaanasaa hutvaa satthu santika.m upasa"nkamitukaamaava attano vasana.t.thaana.m gantvaa divaa.t.thaane nisiiditvaa saayanhasamaye satthu santika.m upasa"nkamitvaa. 108. Going out(nikkhamma) from my daytime resting place (divaa-vihaaraa) means: going out (nikkhamitvaa) from that place that was her own (attano) daytime resting place (divaa-vihaara-.t.thaana-tyo). This [woman] met the thera when the time was high nooon, and through the answer to that question and a discourse on the Doctrine, her stiff pride was humbled and her mind was favourable disposed towards him. Wanting to go into the Teacher's presence, she went to her dwelling place and sat down in her daytime quarters. In the evening she went into the Teacher's presence. Nihacca jaa.nu.m vanditvaati jaa.nudvaya.m pathaviya.m nihantvaa pati.t.thapetvaa pa~ncapati.t.thitena vanditvaa. Sammukhaa a~njali.m akanti satthu sammukhaa dasanakhasamodhaanasamujjala.m a~njali.m akaasi.m. Ehi, bhaddeti ma.m avaca, saa me aasuupasampadaati ya.m ma.m bhagavaa arahatta.m patvaa pabbajja~nca upasampada~nca yaacitvaa .thita.m "ehi, bhadde, bhikkhunupassaya.m gantvaa bhikkhuniina.m santike pabbaja upasampajjassuu"ti avaca aa.naapesi. Saa satthu aa.naa mayha.m upasampadaaya kaara.nattaa upasampadaa aasi ahosi. 109. Having bent (nihacca) my kneww (jaa.nu.m), having paid homage to him means: having pressed (nihantvaa) both knees down on the ground (jaa.nu-dvaya.m pathaviya.m), being established, having paid homage with the fivefold prostration. Putting my raised hands together (a~njali.m akaasi.m) with my resplendent ten fingernails joined. "Come, Bhaddaa," he said to me. That was my full ordination means: for the Buddha, as I was standing there after I attained Arahatship and entreated him [to grant me] the going forth and full ordination, he said to me, he ordered me, "Come, Bhaddaa! Go to the residence of the bhikkhuniis and in the presence of the bhikkhuniis go forth and be fully ordained." Because the Teacher's order to me was the cause of my full ordination, it became my full ordination. Ci.n.naati-aadikaa dve gaathaa a~n~naabyaakara.nagaathaa. Tattha ci.n.naa a"ngaa ca magadhaati ye ime a"ngaa ca magadhaa ca vajjii ca kaasii ca kosalaa ca janapadaa pubbe saa.naaya mayaa ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njantiyaa ci.n.naa caritaa, tesuyeva satthaaraa samaagamato pa.t.thaaya ana.naa niddosaa apagatakilesaa hutvaa pa~n~naasa sa.mvaccharaani ra.t.thapi.n.da.m abhu~nji.m aha.m. 110. The two verses beginning I wandered are the verses of her declaration of perfect knowledge. There, I have wandered over A"nga and Magadha means: formerly I wandered over, I went around the districts of A"nga and Magadha, Vajjii, Kaasi and Kosala as one in debt, enjoying the alms food of the kingdoms. In those very [districts], starting from the time I met with the Teacher, I enjoyed the alms food of the kindgoms without any debt, faultless, with impurities removed, for fifty years. Yena abhippasannamaanasena upaasakena attano ciivara.m dinna.m, tassa pu~n~navisesakittanamukhena a~n~na.m byaakarontii "pu~n~na.m vata pasavii bahun"ti osaanagaathamaaha. Saa suvi~n~neyyaava. Bhaddaaku.n.dalakesaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 111. When a lay follower gave his own robe with a believing mind, she spoke the final verse [beginning] truly he produced much merit, revealing her perfect knowledge through praise of the nature of his merit. [The rest] is easily understood. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Bhaddaa Ku.n.dalakesaa. peace, connie #69847 From: "m. nease" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. m_nease Hi Nina, OK, thanks very much for your time. mike Soka is not the same as tanhaa, it is an aspect of dukkha. But we can say because of tanhaa and ignorance we are born. #69848 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:04 pm Subject: Rupas, Ch 3, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Salåyatanavagga, Third Fifty, Ch 3, § 127, Bhåradvåja) that King Udena asked the venerable Bhåradvåja what the cause was that young monks could practise the righteous life in its fulness and perfection. Bhåradvåja spoke about the advices the Buddha gave to them, such as seeing the foulness of the body, and guarding the six doors. We read that Bhåradvåja said: ... It has been said, Mahåråjah, by the Exalted One... : “Come, monks, do you abide watchful over the doors of the faculties. Seeing an object with the eye, be not misled by its outer view, nor by its lesser details. But since coveting and dejection, evil, unprofitable states, might overwhelm one who dwells with the faculty of the eye uncontrolled, do you apply yourselves to such control, set a guard over the faculty of the eye and attain control of it. Hearing a sound with the ear... with the nose smelling a scent... with the tongue tasting a savour... with the body contacting tangibles... with the mind cognizing mind-states... be you not misled by their outward appearance nor by their lesser details... attain control thereof”.... We then read that King Udena praised the Buddha’s words. He said about his own experiences: I myself, master Bhåradvåja, whenever I enter my palace with body, speech and mind unguarded, with thought unsettled, with my faculties uncontrolled,- at such times lustful states overwhelm me. But whenever, master Bhåradvåja, I do so with body, speech and mind guarded, with thought settled, with my faculties controlled, at such times lustful states do not overwhelm me.... We read that King Udena took his refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha. How can we avoid being misled by the outward appearance or by the details of phenomena? By understanding realities as they are when they appear, one at a time. The following sutta in the “Kindred Sayings”(IV, Salåyatanavagga, Second Fifty, Ch 3, § 82, The World) reminds us not to cling to a “whole” but to be mindful of only one object at a time as it appears through one of the six doors: Then a certain monk came to see the Exalted One.... Seated at one side that monk said to the Exalted One: “ ‘The world! The world!’ is the saying, lord. How far, lord, does this saying go?” “ It crumbles away, monks. Therefore it is called ‘the world’ . What crumbles away? The eye... objects... eye-consciousness... eye- contact... that pleasant or unpleasant or neutral feeling that arises owing to eye-contact... tongue... body... mind... It crumbles away, monks. Therefore it is called ‘the world’ .“ ****** Nina. #69849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:04 pm Subject: Letters on Vipassana 10, no 7 nilovg Dear friends, The commentary to this sutta, the "Manorathapúraní", illustrates how a bad conscience can cause great sorrow. We read that two brothers killed a cow and divided the flesh. However, the younger brother wanted to have more since he had many children. They had a fight and then the older brother killed the younger one. He realized that he had committed grave akusala kamma and kept on worrying about it. He could find no rest, no matter he was standing or sitting and he could no longer digest his food, so that he finally became only skin and bone. He was afterwards reborn in Hell as a result of his akusala kamma. Lamentation (parideva) is dukkha. It is the basis for both bodily and mental suffering. We read: Struck by sorrow's dart a man laments, Yet thus makes worse the pain born of dry throat And lips and palate, and unbearable- So the Blessed One called lamentation pain. Pain is dukkha. Both bodily and mental pain are dukkha, because each of these is the basis for both bodily and mental suffering. When one is afflicted by bodily pain one also suffers mentally. When one is overwhelmed by grief one may bring bodily pain upon oneself by thumping one's breast or even by committing suicide. Woe (upåyåsa) is dukkha because it is also the basis for bodily and mental suffering. According to the commentary, it has the characteristic of frustration, its nature is moaning and it manifests itself as dejection. Furthermore, the commentary elaborates on the kinds of dukkha which are: association with the undesired, separation from the desired and not getting what one wishes. These are also the basis for both bodily and mental suffering. The five khandhas of clinging in short are dukkha. The commentary explains: In the description of the khandhas as objects of clinging, "in short" (sankhittena) is said with reference to the manner of teaching. For suffering cannot be summed up in short as so many hundred kinds of suffering, or so many thousand kinds of suffering, or so many hundred thousand kinds of suffering; but it can by the manner of teaching. Therefore he spoke thus, summing up the teaching in short in this way: "There is no other suffering at all, but in short the five khandhas as objects of clinging are suffering." According to the commentary the different kinds of suffering are generated in the five khandhas as grass is on the ground or fruits and flowers are on trees. Dukkha is inherent in the five khandhas of clinging. ******** Nina. #69850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:14 pm Subject: Re: Harmonizing Perspectives Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana nilovg Hi TG, see the satipatthanasutta under mindfulness of citta, and mindfulness of dhamma. Here are also meaningful summings up. Each of these deserve careful consideration and contemplation, especially in relation to the present moment, not just reading like a list. They are like short meditations, in the present moment. TG: > PS, I'm not sure what "imagining that I have you here" means. N: In english I should have said: you have got me here. About Abhidhamma being only for scholars, you know. You could expect protest, but I am joking only. I do not take this so heavily. Nina. Op 22-mrt-2007, om 12:27 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > The Suttas never address things that way. Its sort of the > > "atomic > > theory" of citta. > > > > TG > > > #69851 From: "colette" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. ksheri3 Good Morning Nina, > we just think differently about the teachings. colette: Of course, and there you have one of the greastest OBSCURATIONS in this world today. Ah, I was going to embark on the "conditioning" path of argument but then I thought about the meat I have in the oven, the vegetables steaming on many burners, etc, and realized that SEASONING AND SPICE are definately in order here. ;-) While they may say, "at the ole ball game" in San Francisco "NO PEPPER ALLOWED" I tend to make sure I apply many peppers to my meats, some vegeis, etc. Are you of the opinion that there should only be a single way to view the teachings of the dharma, dhamma, and/or Buddha? If so, is that way your way? Now I can get into fractions and that highly useful tool the LEAST COMMON DENOMINATOR. You see, when numbers are fractionalized the LCD is required in order to Add or Subtract. I can get into the nickname I've heard others call me by, Adder, but that just means they think too much of being subtracted. Now, as for this: > "...teaching of dhatu, element. I cannot agree." colette: Why not agree, why are you forced to DIS-agree? toodles, colette #69852 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:14 pm Subject: Fwd: Presumed Trouble at Yahoo Groups sarahprocter... All, Just starting the day. Seems like there was a yahoo glitch but mail seems to be going through now without delay. As Howard says, there will likely be a backlog that will take some time to clear. Thanks, Howard. It does help when people like you let us know of these things off-list. Also, yahoo mentioned in a circular a couple of days ago that some g-mail accounts hadn't been receiving yahoo mail. We hope theat's solved for anyone affected. Sarah (& Jon) --- Upasaka@... wrote [0ff-list]: > From what I can see, no posts have appeared on any Yahoo groups > for > over 5 hours at this point. (It's going on 1:30 p.m. now on the U.S. > East > Coast.) You're likely sleeping at this point - no doubt it'll all be a > thing of the > past by the time you awaken, except for a huge backlog of emails then > appearing. #69853 From: Sobhana Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello Sarah, Thank you for typing the sutta stories, those are exactly the ones I was looking for. :) Thank you for your advice too, it is nice to hear someone say "yes, you have to keep on practising and meditating", rather than "do you think you can decide to meditate? Is that "decision" yours to make?" the later comment is like looking at a half-empty glass. Has the Buddha mentioned anything about "everything is conditioned" in the sutta pitaka? Did he imply that anywhere in the sutta or is it only in the abhidhamma? Metta Sobhana #69854 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:47 pm Subject: PATH OF PURITY - Pe Maung Tin (PTS - 2003) nichiconn relevance, your honour? ;)c. PART III: UNDERSTANDING [598] CHAPTER XIX: EXPOSTION OF THE PURITY OF THE TRANSCENDING OF DOUBT Knowledge established by the transcending of doubt in the three (phases of) time through grasping the causes of this name-and-form is called Purity of the transcending of doubt. The monk who desires to fulfil it sets about making a search for the condition and cause of name-and-form, just as a clever physician seeks for the origin of a disease, or a compassionate man, seeing a young little child lying on its back on the road, thinks of its parents, saying "Whose child may it be?" From the beginning he reflects thus: "This name-and-form is not without condition since it is the same name-and-form everywhere, at all times, in all cases. It is not caused by a creative deity or others, for there is no creator, or anyone beyond the name-and-form. And they who say the Creator and others are mere name-and-form, according to them the name-and-form arises without such conditions as those called creator and so on. Therefore, since it must have its root-condition and cause, which are they?" Attending thus to the condition and cause of name-and-form, he grasps the condition and cause of the body-group thus: "This body is not born amidst water-lilies, lotuses, white lotuses, white water-lilies and so on, or amidst rubies, pearls and so on. It is born between the stomach and the colon, with the membrane of the stomach behind, the back-bones in front, surrounded by the intestines and the mesentery, itself evil-smelling, loathsome and repulsive, confined in a place, evil-smelling, loathsome and repulsive, like worms in rotten fish, decomposed corpses {Puutiku.napa is omitted in the Burmese texts.}, putrid junkets, cesspools, pools of mud and so on. And of the body that is born thus, [599] these four states: ignorance, craving, grasping, karma are the root-condition, as having produced it, and sustenance is the cause, as having supported it. Thus these five states are its root-condition and cause. Of these the three begining with ignorance are the sufficing condition of this body, like the mother of a child; karma is the generator, like the father of a son; sustenance is the supporter {sandhaaraka}, likethe nurse of a child." #69855 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:06 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,141 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 141. In another's case, owing to blameless sense-sphere kamma, there comes into focus in the mind door at the time of death the sign of a happy destiny, in other words, the appearance of the mother's womb24 in the case of the human world or the appearance of pleasure groves, divine palaces, wishing trees, etc., in the case of the divine world. His rebirth-linking consciousness arises next to the death consciousness in the order shown for the sign of an unhappy destiny. This is the kind of rebirth-linking that has a 'present' object and comes next to death consciousness with a 'past' object. ------------------------- Note 24. The Sammohavinodanii adds more details here: 'When hell appears it does so like a metal cauldron; when the human world appears, the mother's womb appears like a woollen slipper (kambala-yaana--for yaana as footwear or sandals see MA.iii,222); when the heavenly world appears, wishing trees, divine palaces and couches, etc., appear'. Pm. remarks here: 'By the words "the appearance of the mother's womb", etc., only visual appearance is given as the sign of destiny. Herein, in the first place it would be logical that sound has not been given in the Commentaries as a sign of destiny because it is included in the happy destinies as not-clung-to, but the reason for odour, etc., not having been given, will be inquired into' (Pm. 609). This question is in fact dealt with at length at Pm. 611, but the arguments are not reproduced here. See note 26 below. ********************** 141. aparassa mara.nasamaye kaamaavacaraanavajjakammavasena manussaloke maatukucchiva.n.nasa"nkhaata.m vaa devaloke uyyaanavimaanakapparukkhaadiva.n.nasa"nkhaata.m vaa sugatinimitta.m manodvaare aapaathamaagacchati, tassa duggatinimitte dassitaanukkameneva cuticittaanantara.m pa.tisandhicitta.m uppajjati. aya.m atiitaaramma.naaya cutiyaa anantaraa paccuppannaaramma.naa pa.tisandhi. #69856 From: han tun Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:22 pm Subject: Daana Corner (25) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “The Value of Giving” (to be presented in 5 parts) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The Value of Giving Many suttas enumerate the various benefits of giving. Giving promotes social cohesion and solidarity. It is the best means of bridging the psychological gap, much more than the material economic gap, that exists between haves and have-nots. The Magha Sutta maintains that hates gets eliminated when one is established in generosity (Sn. 506). The one with a generous heart earns the love of others and many associate with him (A.iii,40). Giving also cements friendships (Sn. 187). It is maintained that if a person makes an aspiration to be born in a particular place after giving alms, the aspiration will be fulfilled only if he is virtuous, but not otherwise (A.iv,239). According to one sutta (A.iv,241-43), if one practices giving and morality to a very limited degree and has no idea about meditation, one obtains an unfortunate birth in the human world. One who performs meritorious deeds such as giving and morality to a considerable degree, but does not understand anything about meditation, meets a fortunate human birth. But those who practice giving and morality to a great extent without any knowledge of meditation find rebirth in one of the heavens. They excel other deities in the length of life, beauty, pleasure, fame and the five strands of sense pleasure. The Anguttara Nikaya (A.iv,79) enumerates a number of this-worldly benefits of giving. The generous person, and not the miser, wins the sympathy of others. arahants approach him, accept alms and preach to him first. A good reputation spreads about him. He can attend any assembly with confidence and dignity. He is reborn in a state of happiness after death. Another sutta (A.iii,41) adds that a generous person wins popularity; people of noble character associate with him and he has the satisfaction of having fulfilled a layperson's duties (gihidhamma anapeto hoti). It is said that an almsgiver bestows on others life, beauty, happiness, strength and intelligence. Having bestowed them on others, he becomes a beneficiary of them himself (A.iii,42). The same idea is expressed by the succinct statement that one reaps what one sows (yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam, S.i,227). “The Value of Giving” to be continued. with metta, Han #69857 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:32 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > When I remember the "all" (the loka; the world of the presently > arisen paramattha dhammas) there is no hesitation or confusion. > Difficulties arise, however, when I am quizzed as to my viewpoint on > abortion, euthanasia, self defense and so on. > > Those issues are best left to the conventional sciences, which deal > exclusively with concepts. The more I understand the All (and the > various dhammas that are capable of arising in it), the more likely > it is that kusala kamma will be conditioned in any given > circumstance. I am not really bothered by arguments for and against > abortion and the other tricky concepts. Hi Ken H and Robert You are having an interesting discussion which, to me, touches upon the position of ethics in a teaching that holds to anatta. Anatta is such a radical and counter-intuitive notion for us, there is little wonder we deal with it in very different ways and dispute about it so much. I once belonged to a Dhamma discussion group where it was agreed that anatta would *not* be discussed. A bit like studying anatomy without reference to the central nervous system!! Classically defined, ethics deals with the question "what should I do?" So where does ethics fit in a system where there is no "I" to do anything? Clearly, fertile ground for friction between conventional and paramattha thinking. Henri van Zeyst addressed this very point in his essay "Ethics in Buddhism" (The Cultural Evolution of Buddhism, MD Gunasena & Co Ltd, 1969). He said that "the Buddha, by his denial of a soul, a 'self', a substance, an ego, an 'I', removed the very basis of [classical] ethical value." His conclusion: in Dhamma "moral conduct will be there, but neither through obedience to a law, nor in conformity with tradition, however universal. Morality is not a categorical imperative, it is not a pure abstract, not a universal idea, not a supernatural or divine law. It is just the way nature works, as long as it is not interfered with in ignorance." In some of his writings, he seems to draw a distinction between "reform" and "awakening". Where there is little knowledge of and insight into anatta, action becomes "reform" (You need to do A, B and C). But knowledge of and insight into anatta leads to "awakening" - linked to right understanding, "the first step on the path and the most essential one". He doesn't dismiss reform-type ethics - they are "a means to an end" in living in a social context. But the bottom line is: both kusala and akusala tie one to samsara. Dhamma doesn't discard the moral order but transcends it. Ken H wants everyone to focus only on the transcendental aspect of the Dhamma. The ultimate cold shower! Not even the Buddha tried that approach!! And Rob K wants to harmonise the conventional with the ultimate. This has to be possible - otherwise nibbana and parinibbana would always co-occur, wouldn't they? But, as the "giving away wives & children" furore shows, this is a perilous task - the purified cittas of ariyans can be easily percieved as unethical from within the moral order. Good luck, Rob - you're going to need it. ;-)) Sorry for rambling. Humbly yours Andrew #69858 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana buddhatrue Hi Sobhana (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sobhana wrote: > > Hello Sarah, > > Thank you for typing the sutta stories, those are exactly the ones I was looking for. :) > Thank you for your advice too, it is nice to hear someone say "yes, you have to keep on practising and meditating" James: Wow! Sarah gave that advice!? I guess I missed that. Anyway, Sobhana you asked for articles by Bhikkhus dealing with anatta. Here is an article you might appreciate that deals with anatta and how to relate anatta to meditation to achieve the jhanas: http://what-buddha- taught.net/Books/Ajahn_Brahm_Using_NonSelf_to_Let_Go.htm I will just have t, rather than "do you think you can decide to meditate? Is that "decision" yours to make?" the later comment is like looking at a half-empty glass. Has the Buddha mentioned anything about "everything is conditioned" in the sutta pitaka? James: Yes, the Buddha taught Dependent Origination- also known as "This/That Conditionality". Loka Sutta (The World): http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.044.than.html Did he imply that anywhere in the sutta or is it only in the abhidhamma? James: He taught it directly in the suttas, and it is probably the most difficult of his teachings to comprehend. The Abhidhamma attempts to elaborate this teaching to detail all of its aspects. There are seven books of the Abhidhamma and each of them become increasingly more complex in analysis of DO. > > Metta > Sobhana Metta, James #69859 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and Ken) - > I do think there are things to be said that can support nibbana being > anatta. First of all, being anatta doesn't involve the having of a feature, > but the lacking of one. Secondly, to be anatta has several aspects, some of > which I think make easy sense for nibbana: 1) Nibbana is impersonal, 2) Nibbana is > not the self of anything - not its core, as, for example, the Hindus conceive > of Brahman being a world self and, in it role as atman, the self of all > beings, and 3) Nibbana is without identity, being beyond all conditions. As for > anatta only being applied to the khandhas, I take "Sabbe dhamma anatta" to apply > to nibbana; that is, I take the use of 'dhamma' instead of 'sankhara' to not > be accidental. You raise some very good points, and I am not going to argue it. As I posted, this is not a subject I have a strong position about. I know about nibbana what a fish knows about airplanes! ;-)) However, I would be much more willing to accept this thesis if the Buddha had taught it directly. The Buddha had 45 years to teach and yet he didn't once say, "Nibbana is non-self". To me, that is important. Looking at three sentences from the Buddha and deciphering a hidden meaning- like it is the Da Vinci Code ;-))- doesn't settle well with me. Metta, James #69860 From: Sobhana Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello all, I have a few more questions. Take for example, a person who is bad and does not keep his/her sila (e.g. breaking all 5 precepts) in his/her past life. Will he/she have a chance to become a good person (who keeps all the precepts) in the future lives? Does everyone have a chance to "become" good in the end? Will everyone attain Nibbana one day in this long unfathomable samsara? Does a person have to exhaust all his/her bad kamma in order to attain Nibbana? If the answer is "yes, he/she can become a good person in the future", how does the "turning point from bad to good happen? How does the conditions work in this case? Doesn't akusala root always have akusala effect? And this akusala effect, won't it propel another set of akusala cause, therefore doesn't it become a never-ending cycle of akusala cause and effect? What I mean is that, once something start from akusala root, it will be akusala till the end. Akusala root will not produce kusala effect, right? For example, Angulimala who has done good and bad deeds in the past, with a mixture of wholesome and unwholesome cause and effect, how did his good deeds get ripe at the right time for him to meet the Buddha and become an Arahant? Ok, the answer is, it is conditioned. But how did the conditioning happen? How did the wholesome conditions come together in such perfect timing? My theory is that, let's say a serial killer had to kill because he has got no choice, he was conditioned to be a killer. Therefore, when he dies, is reborn in a woeful realm and he suffers there until his bad kamma is exhausted. Then he gets to be reborn again in a human realm and has a chance to good deeds because whatever little bit of the good kamma that he had left over from past lives will condition him to do good deeds and because he has started to do good deeds, the wholesomeness will accumulate and accumulate and eventually he will meet with the conditions that is right for him to reach Nibbana. I think the time he spent in woeful realm is like a jail time, a time to repent and 'burn off kamma'. There is no "self" in the equation, only kamma, conditions and time spent suffering. Right??? Or urgh, bad theory!!! Teach me the correct view, please. Thank you. Regards, Sobhana #69861 From: Sobhana Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello James, James: Wow! Sarah gave that advice!? I guess I missed that. Sobhana: I'm sorry if I've mislead you into thinking that Sarah gave that advice 'word by word'. No, I deduced that conclusion from *my own point of view*. I'm sorry because I don't understand your sense of humor yet, I'm not sure if you are sincere or sarcastic. I'm sorry... The post from Sarah that you've missed, I've copied below. Sarah: ;-) I like your comments and I once raised just the same questions on this same account!! Yes, all their choices were conditioned and yes, there were conditions for them not to listen or attend to any wisdom -- of the conventional or dhamma-kind --, and this was the result. As KenH and others have been stressing, in the end there are just different paramattha dhammas conditioned in this way. However, if we think that therefore the path is hopeless or pre-destined or nothing can be done, then this kind of thinking in itself will be a condition not to listen, not to consider, not to develop any understanding. So, I think it helps a lot to appreciate that wise reflection, awareness and understanding can arise now of any dhammas that are apparent including seeing, visible object, thinking, confusion or anything else. Please continue to persist with your comments and questions. It seems like an impossible paradox when we appreciate that all sankhara dhammas are conditioned and yet we say there is a way, there is a path. We can't find the solution just by thinking, but when awareness develops of present dhammas, the answer becomes clear, I think. -------- Regards, Sobhana #69862 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:01 pm Subject: Importance of Sila and Brahma-Viharas ( was Re: Conditions and Nibbana) buddhatrue Hi Sobhana (and all), Sobhana: If the answer is "yes, he/she can become a good person in the future", how does the "turning point from bad to good happen? James: Very good question! The turning point from good to bad happens when the person gains right view and realizes that bad actions have bad consequences. The person must believe in kamma or the potential for bad will always outweigh the potential for good. The turning point occurs when the person resolves not to do bad actions any longer which create bad kamma. Sobhana: How does the conditions work in this case? Doesn't akusala root always have akusala effect? And this akusala effect, won't it propel another set of akusala cause, therefore doesn't it become a never-ending cycle of akusala cause and effect? James: Another good question! Past negative kamma which is medium to minor is counter-acted, or "burned away", with meditation on the Brahma-Viharas: "Having abandoned the taking of life, he refrains from taking life. Having abandoned stealing, he refrains from stealing. Having abandoned illicit sex, he refrains from illicit sex. Having abandoned lies, he refrains from lies. Having abandoned divisive speech, he refrains from divisive speech. Having abandoned harsh speech, he refrains from harsh speech. Having abandoned idle chatter, he refrains from idle chatter. Having abandoned covetousness, he becomes uncovetous. Having abandoned ill will & anger, he becomes one with a mind of no ill will. Having abandoned wrong views, he becomes one who has right views. "That disciple of the noble ones, headman — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction [the east] with an awareness imbued with good will, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through good will is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there. "That disciple of the noble ones — thus devoid of covetousness, devoid of ill will, unbewildered, alert, mindful — keeps pervading the first direction with an awareness imbued with compassion... appreciation... equanimity, likewise the second, likewise the third, likewise the fourth. Thus above, below, & all around, everywhere, in its entirety, he keeps pervading the all-encompassing cosmos with an awareness imbued with equanimity — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, without hostility, without ill will. Just as a strong conch-trumpet blower can notify the four directions without any difficulty, in the same way, when the awareness-release through equanimity is thus developed, thus pursued, any deed done to a limited extent no longer remains there, no longer stays there." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.008.than.html Some members of this group are the students of a teacher in Thailand named K. Sujin. K. Sujin teaches that the qualities of metta, compassion, appreciation, and equanimity should not be developed during meditation, that they should be developed during everyday life- little by little as they arise naturally. I cannot emphasize enough how dangerous and wrong this teaching is!! It is the most dangerous teaching that KS proposes! As you rightly point out, the potential for bad far outweighs the potential for good when things are allowed to "run their course". It is through the deliberate cultivation of the Brahma-Viharas that the mind is turned to kusala and eventually to wisdom and release. Sobhana: I think the time he spent in woeful realm is like a jail time, a time to repent and 'burn off kamma'. James: Repenting, or feeling sorry, for bad past actions does nothing to the power of the consequence: "[He reflects:] 'The Blessed One in a variety of ways criticizes & censures stealing... indulging in illicit sex... the telling of lies, and says, "Abstain from the telling of lies." There are lies that I have told, to a greater or lesser extent. That was not right. That was not good. But if I become remorseful for that reason, that evil deed of mine will not be undone.' So, reflecting thus, he abandons right then the telling of lies, and in the future refrains from telling lies. This is how there comes to be the abandoning of that evil deed. This is how there comes to be the transcending of that evil deed." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn42/sn42.008.than.html The Noble Eightfold Path begins with Right View and Right Intention. The next part of the path, however, which many people skip over, is Right Speech, Right Livelihood, and Right Action- all aspects of morality. Morality must be developed quite distinctly from the development of wisdom (most people want to just jump right to the development of satipatthana and jhana without perfecting morality first). The development of morality includes meditation on the Brahma-Viharas. Actually, ALL newly ordained monks to the Buddha Sangha were given the subjects of the Brahma-Viharas to meditate upon first. Again, the approach of KS which sees Right Speech, Right Livelihood, and Right Action as simply cetasikas arising with path moment cittas- which arise very infrequently- is a very dangerous approach. Dangerous because it will keep one trapped to the wheel of samsara. Metta, James #69863 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana buddhatrue Hi Sobhana, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sobhana wrote: > > Hello James, > > James: Wow! Sarah gave that advice!? I guess I missed that. > > Sobhana: I'm sorry if I've mislead you into thinking that Sarah gave that advice 'word by word'. No, I deduced that conclusion from *my own point of view*. I'm sorry because I don't understand your sense of humor yet, I'm not sure if you are sincere or sarcastic. I'm sorry... James: No, I am the one who is sorry. I will refrain from the joking with you in the future. I just wrote a post to you about Sila and the Brahma-Viharas and it contains no jokes whatsoever (I consider that a very serious subject). Metta, James #69864 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana scottduncan2 Dear Sobhana, S: "Take for example, a person who is bad and does not keep his/her sila (e.g. breaking all 5 precepts) in his/her past life. Will he/she have a chance to become a good person (who keeps all the precepts) in the future lives? Does everyone have a chance to "become" good in the end? Will everyone attain Nibbana one day in this long unfathomable samsara? Does a person have to exhaust all his/her bad kamma in order to attain Nibbana?..." Scott: I think that the problem here is the insistence on 'person'. Too much focus on this concept. Akusala can condition kusala. (And the other way round as well, for that matter.) This is very good to consider. The conditions whereby this can occur are complex. This occurs from moment to moment. Why all the concern about good or bad persons, if I may ask? Sincerely, Scott. #69865 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 3/22/07 7:44:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > You raise some very good points, and I am not going to argue it. As > I posted, this is not a subject I have a strong position about. I > know about nibbana what a fish knows about airplanes! ;-)) ----------------------------------- Howard: Well, of course, the same for me. And actually a fish knows airplanes better, for s/he can at least catch a glimpse looking up throught the water's surface! LOL! ---------------------------------- However, I > > would be much more willing to accept this thesis if the Buddha had > taught it directly. The Buddha had 45 years to teach and yet he > didn't once say, "Nibbana is non-self". To me, that is important. ----------------------------------- Howard: I suppose it makes mores sense to talk about what leads to inconceivable freedom than to discuss what is inconceivable. -------------------------------- > > Looking at three sentences from the Buddha and deciphering a hidden > meaning- like it is the Da Vinci Code ;-))- doesn't settle well with > me. > ---------------------------------- Howard: Well, the only alternative that I could see for the switch from 'sankhara' to 'dhamma' is literary crafting on the part of the Buddha to make his speech more interesting stylistically, and I don't see that as very likely. But, hey, we don't know. ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #69866 From: "colette" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana ksheri3 Hi Sobhana, Mind if I sprinkle a thought in here and there? > Thank you for your advice too, it is nice to hear someone say "yes, you have to keep on practising and meditating", colette: I easily understand your position here. language, words, I think is what's gonna turn my next bit of explanation into a misinterpretation, I think,: * Meditation is normal * I can't see why ALL PEOPLE do not wish to meditate * When I started on the net in groups like this I was coming from a CONDITIONED background where study was encouraged however study was only a good thing as long as I studied the books I was told to study, read the scripts I was told to read, practice the way I was told to practice, etc. Once I deviated from the status quo, the norm, the Beatten Path, the blind led by the blind, then my study became a very bad thing and that's the only kind of response I got from any persona and every person. It's VERY HEALTHY to find groups that accept your chosen path of practice. * Get better at meditating. * read about it, find out what the mind does since the mind is what CAUSES you to believe the Illusionary world outside yourself and once you take that wrong turn it's hard to keep your eyes on the road you were on let alone stay on the delusional road that the wrong turn led you to. ----------------------- rather than "do you think you can decide to meditate? Is that "decision" yours to make?" colette: those types of statements are presented to me everyday, by everyone I meet, they all know how to live my life better than I do and when they don't get their way they just go ballistic and create a very big debt structure. It's like my roommates, since moving in with them before their boy was born we rented a small three bedroom apartment, but they kept buying things that really didn't matter, they kept buying toys as well for the other children. Soon the apartment was packed. Now we live in a small single family home with two bedrooms upstairs and I live in the basement. No not good enough, they've just continually packed this place with stuff that they really do not need and cannot afford but who am I to say. <...> _________________________________________ the later comment is like looking at a half-empty glass. Has the Buddha mentioned anything about "everything is conditioned" in the sutta pitaka? Did he imply that anywhere in the sutta or is it only in the abhidhamma? colette: "conditioned" is an Abhidharma formulation. I bet, though, that there are suttas that speak of this. Just as there are suttas that speak of "This is not me" "this suffering is not me" or "this ignorance is not me" It's a very good sutta! When I applied it to my meditations I had some extremely CLEAR LIGHT, see Mahamudra. toodles, colette #69867 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:41 pm Subject: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn dear friends, Path of Purity, ch.3: "To him who has entrusted himself, there arises no fear, even when a fearsome object presents itself. ... ". I think of the children trusting their father... and thinking of their mother, to give her half the toys. http://ignca.nic.in/jatak038.htm thanks, robert. connie Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (80) #69868 From: connie Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:41 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (35) nichiconn Thank you, venerable sir. ven. D: Pubbakicca refers to the preparatory tasks identified in Path of Purification Ch. III 16, namely, the cutting off of impediments and development of skill in absorption. connie: and sarah, et al. (whatever that means), ;) Pop quiz question 3, from ch.3: "The preparation of the first jhaana renders service to the jhaana itself by the relation of succession" -- footnote: Tikapa.t.thaana. Qy. Should we read upanissaya for anantara? Cf. Tkp., part ii, 165. i guess "anyone" might aspire to something beyond dry insight, but how many in the past had the breath to get even close to that? peace, connie #69869 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:54 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional ken_aitch Hi Andrew, <. . .> Ken H wants everyone to focus only on the transcendental aspect of > the Dhamma. The ultimate cold shower! Not even the Buddha tried > that approach!! I think he did. Every word of the Dhamma is to be understood in terms of paramattha dhammas. There can be no other approach. Moderately yours, :-) Ken H #69870 From: Sobhana Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hi Scott, Scott: Why all the concern about good or bad persons, if I may ask? Sobhana: The term "person" that I'm using is a figure of speech, as in the conventional way that we use to identify people. It is just too troublesome to say "the 5 khandhas that make up that particular someone...". Hmm, I think my POV is strongly influenced by christianity. In the christian faith, they put a lot of stress in doing good deeds, being a good person, helping people, stuffs like that which I really admire, which I'm grateful for actually. The christian missionaries have helped a lot of people directly and indirectly. I was talking to my friend's mother-in-law the other day, an old lady in her 70s who recently passed her chaplaincy exam where she had to study all types of religion. And now she's qualified to do grief counseling in hospitals. She has a PhD in genetics and spent her career looking at chromosomes under the microscope and she marvels at the "creations" and complexities of life. And when she got to know that I'm a Buddhist, she told me that during the first day of her chaplaincy class, the teacher asked a question which "religion does not believe in god", and she was surprised to learn that Buddhists don't believe in a god. She wants to know more about Buddhism and I'm going to have a hard time explaining no-god concept to her, wait till she hears about Anatta and no control!! :) I don't have problems understanding "conditions" in a conventional way, I have a B.Sc(hons.) in chemistry and I know that if the conditions are not right, the experiments won't work and I used to work in the process engineering dept. in a semi-conductor factory, where I write the manufacturing specs and conditions for the clean-room assembly process. Maybe, I'm getting that type of "conditions" mixed up with the meaning of "paccayo". :( Anyway, the good person or bad person is just my way of referring to kusala actions or akusala actions. I'll try to avoid using the 'person' word in the future, whenever possible. Warm regards, Sobhana #69871 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:00 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > <. . .> Ken H wants everyone to focus only on the transcendental aspect > of > > the Dhamma. The ultimate cold shower! Not even the Buddha tried > > that approach!! > > > I think he did. Every word of the Dhamma is to be understood in terms > of paramattha dhammas. There can be no other approach. > > Moderately yours, :-) > Ken H Dear Ken H Thank you for correcting me. I hereby announce that all my future DSG posts will be written in Old Icelandic. None of you understand Old Icelandic. Nevertheless, my posts are to be understood. Period. Foolishly yours, :-) Andrew #69872 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:02 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" wrote: > > When I remember the "all" (the loka; the world of the presently > arisen paramattha dhammas) there is no hesitation or confusion. > Difficulties arise, however, when I am quizzed as to my viewpoint on > abortion, euthanasia, self defense and so on. > > Those issues are best left to the conventional sciences, which deal > exclusively with concepts. The more I understand the All (and the > various dhammas that are capable of arising in it), the more likely > it is that kusala kamma will be conditioned in any given > circumstance. I am not really bothered by arguments for and against > abortion and the other tricky concepts. > > Does this clear things up? Or is there still something in my > understanding that you disagree with? It is good to discuss these > matters. > ____________ Dear KenH For me it doesn't clear up anything. We seem to be agreeing on some points but I am still unclear on others. When you study the Vinaya do you feel in awe of the wisdom of the Buddha - that it is so precise and beautiful, because of his understanding of paramattha dhammas , of kusala and aksuala. Or do you still think that studying Vinaya is not relevant to laypeople? When the Budda gave this advice http://www.vipassana.info/k.htm#325 ""One day, King Pasenadi of Kosala went to the monastery to pay homage to the Buddha soon after having a heavy meal. The king was in the habit of taking one quarter basketful (half a bushel of) cooked rice and meat curry. While he was in the presence of the Buddha, the king felt so drowsy that he kept on nodding and could hardly keep himself awake. Then he said to the Buddha, "Venerable Sir! I have been in great discomfort since I have taken my meal." To him the Buddha replied, "Yes, O king! Gluttons do suffer in this manner." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 325. The stupid one who is lazy, gluttonous, and drowsy, who just wallows like a well-fed pig, is subject to repeated rebirths. "" Does it make sense to you and perfectly agree with Abhidhamma? It should because excess food is one of the conditions for torpor to arise. If I can be a bit direct: how often to you study the Jataka stories? They are filled with inspiring stories and each one is purely about paramattha dhammas, albeit couched in conventional langauge. Thus in no way should it be confusing to consider these stories, or any events or problems in life. That you confess "Difficulties arise, however, when I am quizzed as to my viewpoint on > abortion, euthanasia, self defense and so on" indicates some limitation in understanding IMO. I recommend a solid course of Dhammapada and Jataka commentaries. Robert #69873 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James - > Howard: > Well, the only alternative that I could see for the switch from > 'sankhara' to 'dhamma' is literary crafting on the part of the Buddha to make his > speech more interesting stylistically, and I don't see that as very likely. But, > hey, we don't know. > ===================== I guess I stand corrected, sort of. After some research, I found a quote by the Buddha which indirectly states that nibbana should be viewed as non-self (It's not done in the same manner as the other suttas, where non-self is linked with annica and dukkha, but it does seem to state that nibbana is non-self): "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html Metta, James #69874 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:24 am Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional ken_aitch Hi Andrew, ------ A: > Thank you for correcting me. ----- Not correcting - just giving my opinion. Maybe my sign- off, "moderately," gave the wrong impression. I was meant as a joke at my own expense (after I had sounded a bit of an extremist). -------- A: > I hereby announce that all my future DSG > posts will be written in Old Icelandic. None of you understand Old > Icelandic. Nevertheless, my posts are to be understood. Period. -------- No trouble! I'll consult my junior woodchucks' manual. Ken H #69875 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:00 am Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional ken_aitch Hi Robert, --------- <. . .> RK: > For me it doesn't clear up anything. We seem to be agreeing on some points but I am still unclear on others. When you study the Vinaya do you feel in awe of the wisdom of the Buddha - that it is so precise and beautiful, because of his understanding of paramattha dhammas , of kusala and aksuala. Or do you still think that studying Vinaya is not relevant to laypeople? ----------- Definitely the first one (in awe of the Buddha)! I should add, though, that I don't actually study the Vinaya. I know nothing more about it than what I have read here at DSG. ------------------ RK: > When the Budda gave this advice http://www.vipassana.info/k.htm#325 ""One day, King Pasenadi of Kosala went to the monastery to pay homage to the Buddha soon after having a heavy meal. The king was in the habit of taking one quarter basketful (half a bushel of) cooked rice and meat curry. While he was in the presence of the Buddha, the king felt so drowsy that he kept on nodding and could hardly keep himself awake. Then he said to the Buddha, "Venerable Sir! I have been in great discomfort since I have taken my meal." To him the Buddha replied, "Yes, O king! Gluttons do suffer in this manner." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: Verse 325. The stupid one who is lazy, gluttonous, and drowsy, who just wallows like a well-fed pig, is subject to repeated rebirths. "" Does it make sense to you and perfectly agree with Abhidhamma? ---------------------- What would the Buddha have said had the king asked him, "Do you mean *I* will be reborn? Or are you talking about conditionality?" ------------------------- RK: > It should because excess food is one of the conditions for torpor to arise. ------------------------- I think you are saying that concepts can condition dhammas by way of natural decisive support. That is true of course, but further explanation is required. Ultimately, it is dhammas that do the conditioning. ------------------------------- RK: > If I can be a bit direct: how often to you study the Jataka stories? -------------------------------- See my answer re the Vinaya. -------------------------------------- RK: > They are filled with inspiring stories and each one is purely about paramattha dhammas, albeit couched in conventional langauge. Thus in no way should it be confusing to consider these stories, or any events or problems in life. --------------------------------------- I can't agree with your conclusion. Certainly, stories can be useful for describing paramattha dhammas, but they have no reality in their own right. The exception is a story told by a Buddha. Only a Buddha can know another person's citta and kamma. Only a Buddha can say (for example), "That person is a glutton and is destined for the rebirths suffered by gluttons." -------------------------------------- RK: > That you confess "Difficulties arise, however, when I am quizzed as to my viewpoint on > abortion, euthanasia, self defense and so on" indicates some limitation in understanding IMO. I recommend a solid course of Dhammapada and Jataka commentaries. --------------------------------------- Thank you, I am sure that is a good recommendation. Ken H #69876 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 3:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) hantun1 Dear Nina, Sarah and others, Lily de Silva gave a lot of sutta references when she wrote ‘The Value of Giving’ [Daana Corner (25)]. Although ‘The Value of Giving’ is not finished yet, do you have any comments on the text so far finished? Or, would you rather wait till it is finished completely? Respectfully, Han ============= #69877 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana scottduncan2 Dear Sobhana, Thanks for your clarification: Sobhana: The term 'person' that I'm using is a figure of speech, as in the conventional way that we use to identify people. It is just too troublesome to say "the 5 khandhas that make up that particular someone...Anyway, the good person or bad person is just my way of referring to kusala actions or akusala actions. I'll try to avoid using the 'person' word in the future, whenever possible." Scott: No, of course. Next time, just write 't.f.k.t.m.u.t.p.s.' and I'll know what you mean. (Not funny despite being an attempt at humour gone terribly wrong.) Seriously though, it did seem, when coupled with the concern regarding the doing of good and bad deeds, not to mention where a 'person' will end up, that your use of 'person' was more than just figurative. No need not to use 'person' when it is clear that this is only figurative. Are you sure you're clear on this? As far as kusala or akusala actions, these, and I'm not sure you see it this way, are not done by a 'person' ultimately. Nor can actions be willed to be kusala. S: "Hmm, I think my POV is strongly influenced by christianity. In the christian faith, they put a lot of stress in doing good deeds, being a good person, helping people, stuffs like that which I really admire, which I'm grateful for actually. The christian missionaries have helped a lot of people directly and indirectly." Scott: I think that all this emphasis on 'doing good deeds' is being placed from the point of view of strong belief in self and belief in self as agent. This goes to the point made above. One has to really know whether a desire to do good is kusala or not. What looks and feels like a 'good deed' may have akusala roots. This is not so easy to know sometimes. S: "I was talking to my friend's mother-in-law the other day, an old lady in her 70s who recently passed her chaplaincy exam where she had to study all types of religion...And when she got to know that I'm a Buddhist...She wants to know more about Buddhism and I'm going to have a hard time explaining no-god concept to her, wait till she hears about Anatta and no control!! :)" Yeah but it might just be that conditions are such that this will make sense to her. One doesn't necessarily know. Of course, and I say with tongue firmly in cheek, you might want to make more sense of it first yourself ;-)... S: "I don't have problems understanding "conditions" in a conventional way, I have a B.Sc(hons.) in chemistry and I know that if the conditions are not right, the experiments won't work...Maybe, I'm getting that type of 'conditions' mixed up with the meaning of 'paccayo'. :(" Scott: Well, its just my opinion here, but I think you'd do well to leave science out of it. Science is great and all (it pays the bills) but it is definitely not Dhamma. I think that its best to discuss Dhamma as Dhamma, learn Dhamma as Dhamma, and not bother with the mixing of scientific concepts. Conditionality, as taught by the Buddha, is not 'conventional'. I'd say just keep on considering and studying and asking questions as you do. This can be condition for understanding. Dhammaa, in my opinion, was never meant to be 'science'. Dhamma is that which is only taught by a Buddha. Dhamma is truth and has such a depth that no other secular knowledge, in my opinion, compares. Sometimes, when considering Dhamma, there don't seem to be words to describe how it is to have encountered the Teacher in the form of Dhamma. Sincerely, Scott. #69878 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 3/23/07 3:05:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, James - > > > >Howard: > > Well, the only alternative that I could see for the switch > from > >'sankhara' to 'dhamma' is literary crafting on the part of the > Buddha to make his > >speech more interesting stylistically, and I don't see that as very > likely. But, > >hey, we don't know. > >===================== > > I guess I stand corrected, sort of. After some research, I found a > quote by the Buddha which indirectly states that nibbana should be > viewed as non-self (It's not done in the same manner as the other > suttas, where non-self is linked with annica and dukkha, but it does > seem to state that nibbana is non-self): > > "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding > as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not > conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of > Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in > Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root > of suffering &stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, > and that for what has come into being there is aging &death. > Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, > relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the > unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html > > Metta, > James > ========================= Yes, that sutta at least states that nibbana is "not mine", making it impersonal to that extent. I truly think that nibbana is included in what is anatta in every possible sense. Not only is it empty of self, it seems to me, but empty of anything and everything by which it could be positively described with any adequacy. It is hard to say anything at all of nibbana, because, first of all, it isn't a phenomenon in the same way as others, and the Buddha's intended audience, including many far more advanced that we, would, for the most part, have no significant experience of nibbana at all, making any discussion of it little more than misleading, as would be describing some color as "warm" to one without sight. With metta, Howard #69879 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Kenh - bombs, monks etc sarahprocter... Hi Rob K & all, I'm appreciating your discussions on these various topics. A couple of weeks ago, you wrote the following: --- rjkjp1 wrote: > In the meantime let's start with a challenging story to think about. > Bahiya became an arahat while listening to a short sutta. The > Commentaries say he was a bhikkhu when the Dhamma was declining in > the time of Kassapa and with 6 other bhikkhu climbed a mountain, > kicked away the ladder , and vowed arahat or die. One monk attained > arahat, one anagami, and the rest died of starvation... > How do we understand that, any takers..? .... S: As I don't recall there being many 'takers', let me add a little more as it may also relate to some of the other recent discussions too. First, this is the link you gave to the story and also to your message where you quoted the details: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/burlingame/wheel324.html#sect29 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69306 You brought up this story in Bangkok last August and asked K.Sujin for her comments which led to further discussion. I happened to come across it*, so will just give a summary of some of the points of interest. You asked how one can explain those actions and she responded by saying that "'no one can stop anyone's accumulations......different accumulations. No need to copy!" As examples, she also gave the example of the monk (in the Satipatthana Sutta) who always started and stopped and then the interesting example of the dung-eating ascetic who became an arahant! "Accumulated like that, see?" .... [This was the account about Jambuka, the naked ascetic as given in the Dhp. commentary, 70 From the Dict of Pali Proper Names: "l. Jambuka Thera.-He was born in Râjagaha of rich parents but from infancy he would eat nothing but excrement. When he grew older he was ordained with the âjîvakas, who pulled out his hair with a palmyra comb. When the Ajivakas discovered that he ate filth, they expelled him and he lived as a naked ascetic, practising all kinds of austerities and accepting no offerings save butter and honey placed on the tip of his tongue with the point of a blade of grass. His fame spread far. When he was fifty-five years old, the Buddha visited him and spent the night in a cave near his abode. During the night, Jambuka saw mighty gods come to pay homage to the Buddha and was so impressed that the next day he sought the Buddha's counsel. The Buddha told him of his past evil deeds which had condemned him to practise austerities for so long and counselled him to give up his evil ways. In the course of the sermon, Jambuka grew ashamed of his nakedness and the Buddha gave him a bath-robe. At the end of the discourse Jambuka became an arahant, and when the inhabitants of Anga and Magadha came to him with their offerings, he performed a miracle before them and paid homage to the Buddha, acknowledging him as his teacher." S: He was living in a cave, eating his excrement, deceiving the world by pretending to be living on air and yet the Buddha saw that he would only need to give a single stanza and that by the end of it, he would become an arahant and 84,000 living beings would be enlightened too.] ...... After a change of subject, you brought the discussion back to the bhikkhus who climbed the mountain and kicked away the ladder. Again, K.Sujin stressed that "each moment is conditioned by accumulations" and that "one has to be very precise [as to] the moment. Even while giving, there can be akusala in between, so vipallasas (perversions) can arise." "Is there akusala now?". Considering vipallasas is a reminder to understand realities now. "If there is no understanding of visible object as just visible object there is vipallasa." [Azita, I think, had brought up the topic of vipallasas, so it was introduced here as well.] Back again to the extreme behaviour of the bhikkhus and K.Sujin said it indicated how difficult it is to understand realities. One of them became an arahant, one became an anagami, but the others died of starvation. It takes thousands of times listening to the teachings to understand them. Just once is not enough, she was stressing, because of so much ignorance. We all have different accumulations and so did the bhikkhus and it'll depend on such accumulations what conditions the parami to develop. "For us now, what will we do? When will we do it? It all depends on accumulations." We live different lives, have different ways. Again she stressed that people will do anything according to their accumulations. The important thing is that whatever they do, there has to be the development of right understanding. "Otherwise, it's impossible to become enlightened." Back to the dung-eating ascetic and "what about his previous parami?", KS asked. If they hadn't been developed in former lives, he wouldn't have been able to become an arahant on hearing aa few words from the Buddha. Before he heard the teachings in his last life-time he could not develop right understanding (vipassana). You mentioned that in the story of the bhikkhus who climbed the mountain, that it seems they had done so with right understanding. K.Sujin agreed that they had not done so with any apparent wrong understanding but again, she stressed, one shouldn't copy! She went on to elaborate that as long as anyone is not a sotapanna, even those who are 'on the way, "what is not right path is silabbataparamasa". This is a kind of wrong view, but it's not ditthupadana (clinging to wrong views, such as the idea of a 'God' as creator etc). Right understanding has to know all kinds of wrong view and silabbataparamasa, such as when there is the intention to understand. "Panna can see the very, very fine akusala, so it can eradicate the finest one until there is no more ditthi." She also mentioned that "at the moment of trying to have it (i.e. understanding), it's wrong. If panna cannot see it, that person is stuck. Lobha doesn't let go." Finally, Ivan asked if the actions of the bhikkhus were conditioned and K.Sujin's response was that "each moment is conditioned". He asked if their actions had been a necessary condition (for enlightenment). KS: "It's not our judgement, but whenever it arises, panna understands reality as not self. So that's why one has to understand all conditions which condition each moment." I chipped in and suggested there could be just lobha for results. KS: "Anything, anything. Panna has to know it's a reality - not me, not self, arising and falling away." Thanks, Rob, for encouraging me to write these notes and read the full account of the dung-eating bhikkhu again! Metta, Sarah *The discussion will be included in the next set of edited audio recordings. ======= #69880 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:10 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (35) dhammanando_... Hi Sarah, >> Dh: Pubbakicca refers to the preparatory tasks identified in Path of >> Purification Ch. III 16, namely, the cutting off of impediments and >> development of skill in absorption. .... > S: Thank you for this and the reference. Makes good sense. So, > whenever pubbakicca is mentioned in the Therii accounts (prior to > insight), it would imply the attainment of jhaana first, would you > say? I would think so. The only other use of 'pubbakicca' that I know of is a Vinaya one, where it refers to the various preparations to be carried out before the fortnightly Paatimokkha recital -- setting out the sitting mats and drinking water, lighting the lamps, conveying the consent of sick bhikkhus etc. But it is never used in this sense in the Thera- and Theriigaathaa commentaries. The Theragaathaa commentary states that all of the arahants in the Theragaathaa are of four kinds: "attained by the perfections" (paaramippatto, meaning the chief disciples); attained to the four discriminations (pa.tisambhidaappatto); possessing the six higher knowledges (cha.labhi~n~no); and possessing the three knowledges (tevijjo); so it would seem that most, and perhaps all, of them were jhaana-cultivators (though I'm not sure about the pa.tisambhidaappatto arahant -- the texts that I've read don't seem to say very much about this type). Though not explicitly stated, it seems likely that this would also be the case with the bhikkhuni arahants whose verses were deemed worthy of inclusion in the Theriigaathaa. Best wishes, Dhammanando #69881 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- han tun wrote: > Lily de Silva gave a lot of sutta references when she > wrote ‘The Value of Giving’ [Daana Corner (25)]. > Although ‘The Value of Giving’ is not finished yet, do > you have any comments on the text so far finished? Or, > would you rather wait till it is finished completely? ... S: I hope others will have comments and questions for you! I'm afraid we're rather behind in our reading, but your note caught my attention. Let me add one comment for now only - this may be what you had in mind, anyway:-)) > According to one sutta (A.iv,241-43), if one practices > giving and morality to a very limited degree and has > no idea about meditation, one obtains an unfortunate > birth in the human world. .... S: You (and James) may be surprised and happy to hear I fully agree:-) However, we need to be clear what is meant by meditation here: A quick check of the Pali indicates that the text is referring to the 3 pu~n~na kiriya vatthu (bases of meritorious deeds), i.e siila-maya-, daana-maya- and bhaavanaa-maya-pu~n~na kiriya vatthu: "Idha pana bhikkhave, ekaccassa daanamaya"m pu~n~nakiriyavatthu adhimatta"m kata"m hoti, siilamaya"m pu~n~nakiriyavatthu adhimatta"m kata"m heti, bhaavanaamaya"m pu~n~nakiriyavatthu naabhisambhoti." S: As we know the commentaries elaborate these into 10 and that bhaavanaa- here includes expounding the Dhamma (desanaaa), listening to the Dhamma (savana) and straightening one's views (di.t.thujukamma). http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/punna_kiriya_v.htm I'll look forward to reading the other details more carefully later. Thanks again for your good work. Metta, Sarah p.s Pls just set the pace as you see fit, Han! ============= #69882 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. nilovg Dear Colette, Lodewijk was buying some milk at the super and the milkman is always very sour. Lodewijk greeted him cheerfully and asked: 'how is it going, is it going a bit?' He answered:'Whether it is going all right or not depends entirely on ourselves.' To me this is Dhamma. Not the outward circumstances or situations are the real cause of being in peace or not, but our own cittas. I am very grateful to the Buddha that he taught in detail about cittas, so that we know what is akusala and thus harmful, and what is kusala which is valuable and to be pursued. When there is ignorance about ourselves, our cittas, we live in darkness, in the wilderness of wrong view. Understanding is the light, it lights up the darkness. The Buddha taught us the way leading out of ignorance but we have to follow the Buddha's Path ourselves, nobody else can do this for us. In that way you can find out for yourself whether the Buddha truly taught the One Way or not. Nina. Op 22-mrt-2007, om 16:57 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > Are you of the opinion that there should only be a single way to view > the teachings of the dharma, dhamma, and/or Buddha? If so, is that way > your way? #69883 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] PATH OF PURITY - Pe Maung Tin (PTS - 2003) nilovg Dear Connie, I am glad you post this text, thank you. Nina. Op 22-mrt-2007, om 23:49 heeft connie het volgende geschreven: > And of the body that is born > thus, [599] these four states: ignorance, craving, grasping, karma > are the > root-condition, as having produced it, and sustenance is the cause, as > having supported it. #69884 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:44 am Subject: Optimal Observance II bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 8 Precepts which brings Divinity? The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day is endowed with eight features & brings high reward and blessing. It is of sublime dignity and greatness. And which are these eight features? In this, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats avoid all stealing of others' property and abstain from any cheating. Always waiting till whatever thing is freely & openly given, free from all thievish intent, they remain pure both in mind & moral! May also I, this day and night, avoid all stealing & not cheat anyone.. By that I will follow the track & traits of these perfected Arahats! I shall then have observed the Uposatha observance day perfectly.. With this second praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features brings high - even divine - reward & blessing & is of sublime dignity and immense greatness... Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:44 http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm More on this Optimal Buddhist Uposatha Day Observance: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Fullmoon_Observance_Day.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/atthasila.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Optimal Observance II: Not Stealing! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69885 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) nilovg Dear Han and Sarah, I agree with Sarah about bhaavana, which includes many things and always goes together with pa~n~naa. Lily used the word meditation, but this is interpreted in different ways and can lead to confusion. Kusala cittas can be accompanied by pa~n~naa or unaccompanied by it. The former are of a higher degree of kusala and thus their fruits are of a higher degree. Nina. Op 23-mrt-2007, om 11:22 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Although ‘The Value of Giving’ is not finished yet, do > you have any comments on the text so far finished? #69886 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your comments. At the outset I must say that it is very difficult for me to identify the suttas that were quoted. I have Pali text in Burmese script and Burmese translation of Anguttara Nikaya. As regards English translation I have An Anthology of Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya by Nyanaponika and Bhikkhu Bodhi, which does not contain all suttas. The accesstoinsight also does not have all AN suttas. Even if they have, it won’t help much because the author had quoted old volumes of translation by page numbers without sutta title. I have to read a lot of material to pin-point some of the suttas. Fortunately the sutta in question is in the Anthology by Nyanaponika and Bhikkhu Bodhi. It is AN 8.36 Pu~n~nakiriya-vatthu Sutta. And you are right that the three ways of making merit mentioned in this sutta are siila-maya-,daana-maya- and bhaavanaa-maya- pu~n~na kiriya vatthu. But bhaavanaa-maya-pu~n~na kiriya vatthu consists of four items viz., bhaavanaa, dhamma-desanaa, dhamma-savana, and di.t.thujukamma. The bhaavanaa may be translated as meditation both tranquility and insight. So the translation of “meditation” is not totally wrong, but it does not cover the entire bhaavanaa-maya-pu~n~na kiriya vatthu. Respectfully, Han #69887 From: han tun Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) hantun1 Dear Nina (and Sarah), You are right about the definition of bhaavanaa and that if accompanied by pa~n~naa it will bear higher degree of fruits. . But in this sutta under reference, it will not make much difference, because in the following three examples the person has no idea about “meditation” with or without pa~n~naa. (1) If one practices giving and morality to a very limited degree and has no idea about meditation, one obtains an unfortunate birth in the human world. (2) One who performs meritorious deeds such as giving and morality to a considerable degree, but does not understand anything about meditation, meets a fortunate human birth. (3) But those who practice giving and morality to a great extent without any knowledge of meditation find rebirth in one of the heavens. They excel other deities in the length of life, beauty, pleasure, fame and the five strands of sense pleasure. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han and Sarah, > I agree with Sarah about bhaavana, which includes > many things and > always goes together with pa~n~naa. Lily used the > word meditation, > but this is interpreted in different ways and can > lead to confusion. > Kusala cittas can be accompanied by pa~n~naa or > unaccompanied by it. > The former are of a higher degree of kusala and thus > their fruits are > of a higher degree. > Nina. #69888 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Ability to Understand! TGrand458@... Send Email Thanks Bhikkhu Samahita This is another real gem! I take it to show that understanding causal principles is a crucial aspect of the Buddha's teaching and that without such understanding, paying bare attention to experiences would probably bear little fruit unless the knowledge of conditionality was well known during that process. TG In a message dated 3/21/2007 11:31:11 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, bhikkhu2@... writes: Friends: What is the Understanding Ability (Paññâ Indriya)? #69889 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:27 pm Subject: Letters on Vipassana 10, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, The fact that, in short, the five khandhas of clinging are dukkha reminds us of the ultimate truth. There is no being in the ultimate sense, there are only the five khandhas, nåma and rúpa. They arise and then fall away immediately and thus they are unsatisfactory, one cannot take one's refuge in them. We may say that there is nothing desirable in life, that life is dukkha, but have we realized the truth of dukkha? Right understanding of the reality appearing at this moment should be developed, because this is the only way to know the truth about nåma and rúpa. Through the development of satipatthåna there will be more understanding of cause and result in our life, of kamma and vipåka, and more understanding of our defilements which are conditioned by our accumulations. When there is more understanding there will be less dukkha. We usually react with akusala citta when we experience pleasant and unpleasant objects. We are disturbed by the eight "worldly conditions" of gain and loss, praise and blame, honour and dishonour, bodily well-being and misery. It is kamma which is the cause of our birth and which produces the sense organs through which we experience pleasant and unpleasant objects. Seeing, hearing and the other sense-impressions are results of kamma. If it were not for kamma there could not be seeing, hearing or the experience of tangible object at this moment. We cannot see the deeds committed in the past which produce results now but we should remember that we are heirs to kamma. We have theoretical understanding of kamma and vipåka but we do not apply this knowledge in our life. We keep on clinging to the "self" and we wonder why this or that unpleasant experience had to happen to "me". We usually forget that whatever happens has to happen because of conditions. When we suffer a loss there are sorrow, lamentation and woe, we complain and we are sorry for ourselves. When such moments arise there can be mindfulness of them so that we learn that they are only conditioned realities. When paññå has developed to the degree that the first stage of insight can arise nåma is known as nåma and rúpa as rúpa, their different characteristics are clearly distinguished. This stage can only be reached when understanding has been developed of all kinds of nåma and rúpa which appear through the six doors. When a stage of insight arises there is no self, no world, there are only nåma and rúpa which are conditioned. With each stage of insight there is also a growth of understanding of the "ownership of kamma", of kamma and result (kammassakata ñåna). The development of satipatthåna is the only way to be able to apply in daily life one's knowledge of kamma and result. Instead of reacting to the worldly conditions with akusala citta there will be more conditions to react wisely. Eventually there can be more patience and equanimity towards the adversities of life. ******* Nina. #69890 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:27 pm Subject: Rupas, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, We are infatuated with all the objects which are experienced through the sense-doors. However, they are only rúpas that fall away immediately; we cannot possess them. Sometimes we experience pleasant objects and sometimes unpleasant objects. The experience of a pleasant object is the result of kusala kamma and the experience of an unpleasant object is the result of akusala kamma. The objects which can be experienced through the sense-doors are the following: colour or visible object sound odour flavour tangible object As we have seen, three of the four Great Elements can be tangible object, namely: solidity (appearing as hardness or softness), temperature (appearing as heat or cold) and motion (appearing as motion, oscillation or pressure). The element of cohesion is not tangible object, it can be experienced only through the mind-door. Visible object, odour and flavour are included in the “eight inseparable rúpas” which always arise together. Although they arise together, only one kind of rúpa at a time can be the object which is experienced. When there are conditions for the experience, for example, of flavour, the flavour that impinges on the tastingsense is experienced by tasting-consciousness. Flavour arises together with the four Great Elements of solidity, temperature, cohesion and motion, and with visible object, odour and nutrition, but these are not experienced at that moment. Sound is the object of hearing-consciousness. Sound is not included in the eight inseparable rúpas, but when it arises it has to be accompanied by these rúpas that each perform their own function. Whenever there is sound, there also have to be solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion and the other inseparable rúpas. When sound is heard, the accompanying rúpas cannot be experienced [1]. We read in the “Dhammasangaùi” (§ 621) about different kinds of sounds, such as sound of drums and other musical instruments, sound of singing, noise of people, sound of concussion of matter, sound of wind or water, human sound, such as sound of people talking. The “Atthasåliní” (II, Book II, Part I, Ch III, 319), which gives a further explanation of these kinds of sounds, defines sound as follows : ... all sounds have the characteristic of striking the ear, the function and property of being the object of auditory cognition, the manifestation of being the field or object of auditory cognition.... ---------- 1. Because each citta can experience only one object at a time through the appropriate doorway. ************ Nina #69891 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Paramattha and conventional m_nease Hi Andrew, Undarligr! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 10:00 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Paramattha and conventional I hereby announce that all my future DSG posts will be written in Old Icelandic. None of you understand Old Icelandic. Nevertheless, my posts are to be understood. Period. #69892 From: "colette" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. ksheri3 It's all Greek to me. Hey, since so big on our deutchland friends maybe I can get Fr. U.D. or several Russian alchemists to bother with this synthesization of the German to English. I do not have conditions but it seems you may. ;-) I gotta get used to this new keyboard and computer the kids have in this house, I just deleted some of the post you gave to me about Wrong View and the cyclical behavior of the Wheel of Existence, Wheel of Life. Well, while it's true that a person can never free themselves from this recurring nightmare, defect in the grooves of the platter, the record, I think that subscription to this concept of the Wheel is far more intricate than your designation as Wrong View being the cause. There can a greater roll played by the DELUSIONS an individual has from the time they're born, but you glossed over such foundaational bija (seeds). toodles, colette #69893 From: connie Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:19 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nichiconn Dear Friends, part 1 of 11: Pa.taacaaraatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa The commentary on the verses of Therii Pa.taacaaraa Na"ngalehi kasa.m khettanti-aadikaa pa.taacaaraaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi padumuttarassa bhagavato kaale ha.msavatiinagare kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa, ekadivasa.m satthu santike dhamma.m su.nantii satthaara.m eka.m bhikkhuni.m vinayadharaana.m agga.t.thaane .thapenta.m disvaa, adhikaarakamma.m katvaa ta.m .thaanantara.m patthesi. Saa yaavajiiva.m kusala.m katvaa devamanussesu sa.msarantii The verses begining Ploughing the field with ploughs are Therii Pa.taacaaraa's. She too at the time of the Blessed One Padumuttara was born in a good family in the town of Ha.msavatii. One day, after she came of age, she heard the Doctrine in the presence of the Teacher. Seeing the Teacher place a certain bhikkhunii in the foremost position of those knowing the discipline, she performed a meritorious deed, aspiring to that position. And throughout her life she made merit and journeyed on among devas and men. kassapabuddhakaale kikissa kaasira~n~no gehe pa.tisandhi.m gahetvaa sattanna.m bhaginiina.m abbhantaraa hutvaa viisati vassasahassaani brahmacariya.m caritvaa bhikkhusa"nghassa parive.na.m akaasi. Saa tato cutaa devaloke nibbattaa, eka.m buddhantara.m dibbasampatti.m anubhavitvaa At the time of the Buddha Kassapa, she obtained rebirth in the household of Kiki, the King of Kaasi. She was one of seven sisters who practised the holy life for twenty thousand years, and she had a monastery built for the bhikkhunis. When she died she was born in a deva world, and she enjoyed divine attainment[s] during one Buddha interval. imasmi.m buddhuppaade saavatthiya.m se.t.thigehe nibbattitvaa vayappattaa attano gehe ekena kammakaarena saddhi.m kilesasanthava.m akaasi. Ta.m maataapitaro samajaatikassa kumaarassa daatu.m divasa.m sa.n.thapesu.m. Ta.m ~natvaa saa hatthasaara.m gahetvaa tena katasanthavena purisena saddhi.m aggadvaarena nikkhamitvaa ekasmi.m gaamake vasantii gabbhinii ahosi. Saa paripakke gabbhe "ki.m idha anaathavaasena, kulageha.m gacchaama, saamii"ti vatvaa tasmi.m "ajja gacchaama, sve gacchaamaa"ti kaalakkhepa.m karonte "naaya.m baalo ma.m nessatii"ti tasmi.m bahi gate gehe pa.tisaametabba.m pa.tisaametvaa "kulaghara.m gataati mayha.m saamikassa kathethaa"ti pa.tivissakagharavaasiina.m aacikkhitvaa "ekikaava kulaghara.m gamissaamii"ti magga.m pa.tipajji In this Buddha era, she was born in the home of a wealthy merchant in Saavatthi. When she was of age, she had an illicit relationship with a certain servant in her own household. Her mother and father fixed a day to hand her over to a young man of equal birth. When she learned this, she took her movable goods, and together with that servant with whom she had had sexual intercourse, she departed through the main gate [of the town]. Then living in a village she became pregnanat. When the embryo matured, she said, "Why stay here without a protector? Husband, let us go to the home of my family." When he made a delay, saying, "Let's go today, let's go tomorrow," she thought to herself, "This fool will not take me." When he went out, she put in order what needed to be put in order in the house, and she told those who lived in the neighbouring house, "Tell my husband I am going to my family's home." Thinking, "I will go to my family home by myself," she set out on the path. So aagantvaa gehe ta.m apassanto pa.tivissake pucchitvaa "kulaghara.m gataa"ti sutvaa "ma.m nissaaya kuladhiitaa anaathaa jaataa"ti padaanupada.m gantvaa sampaapu.ni. Tassaa antaraamagge eva gabbhavu.t.thaana.m ahosi. Saa pasutakaalato pa.t.thaaya pa.tippassaddhagamanussukkaa saamika.m gahetvaa nivatti. When he came back he did not see her in the house. He asked the neighbours, and on hearing that she had gone to her family's home, he thought to himself, "Because of me, this daughter of a good family is without a protector." Then following in her footsteps, he caught up with her. Her child was born right on the road. From the time she gave birth, her desire to continue the journey subsided, so she took her husband and turned back. === the story continues... connie #69894 From: Sobhana Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Importance of Sila and Brahma-Viharas ( was Re: Conditions and Nibbana) shennieca Hello James, Thank you for the reply. :) I'm not familiar with the teachings of KS. There are still a few things in Buddhism which I don't understand and it is difficult for me to differentiate what is the 'right teaching' or 'wrong teaching' or what is 'right-view or wrong-view' but hopefully oneday that problem can be solved. I like this quote, it says: "You are your own teacher. Looking for teachers can’t solve your own doubts. Investigate yourself to find the truth - inside, not outside. Knowing yourself is most important."- Ajahn Chah" Warm regards, Sobhana #69895 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > .... > S: You (and James) may be surprised and happy to hear I fully agree:-) James: :-)) Oh yeah! I'm going to throw a party!! > > However, we need to be clear what is meant by meditation here: James: Oh rats! That was a short party!! ;-)) > S: As we know the commentaries elaborate these into 10 and that bhaavanaa- > here includes expounding the Dhamma (desanaaa), listening to the Dhamma > (savana) and straightening one's views (di.t.thujukamma). > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/punna_kiriya_v.htm James: Well, I hate to be a party pooper ;-)), but I checked out your link and you are misrepresenting the information presented there. What you quote are not features of bhavana (meditation) but are rather features of punna-kiriya-vatthu (bases of meritorious action). Metta, James #69896 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Han and Sarah, > I agree with Sarah about bhaavana, which includes many things and > always goes together with pa~n~naa. James: You might want to check out that link again. Sarah misrepresented what it says. Lily used the word meditation, > but this is interpreted in different ways and can lead to confusion. James: There is nothing wrong with how Lily used the word 'meditation'. The only ones confused are you and Sarah. ;-)). Metta, James #69897 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:34 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ken_aitch" > ------------------ > RK: > When the Budda gave this advice > http://www.vipassana.info/k.htm#325 > ""One day, King Pasenadi of Kosala went to the monastery to pay > homage to the Buddha soon after having a heavy meal. The king was in > the habit of taking one quarter basketful (half a bushel of) cooked > rice and meat curry. While he was in the presence of the Buddha, the > king felt so drowsy that he kept on nodding and could hardly keep > himself awake. Then he said to the Buddha, "Venerable Sir! I have > been in great discomfort since I have taken my meal." To him the > Buddha replied, "Yes, O king! Gluttons do suffer in this manner." > Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows: > Verse 325. The stupid one who is lazy, gluttonous, and drowsy, who > just wallows like a well-fed pig, is subject to repeated rebirths. "" > > Does it make sense to you and perfectly agree with Abhidhamma? > ---------------------- > > What would the Buddha have said had the king asked him, "Do you mean > *I* will be reborn? Or are you talking about conditionality?" > > ------------------------- > RK: > It should because excess food is one of the conditions for > torpor to arise. > ------------------------- > > I think you are saying that concepts can condition dhammas by way of > natural decisive support. That is true of course, but further > explanation is required. Ultimately, it is dhammas that do the > conditioning. > > ___________ Dear Ken Consider the main point of the story. Food, nutrition, is not merely a concept. All rupa is comprised of kalapas which have the element of ahara (nutriment). Ingesting excess rupa is one of the conditions for thina and middha (sloth, torpor). Knowing this may help us eat less.The King listened to the Buddha, slimmed down and later reported that he felt more energetic. Do your earlier comments about leaving up to science any issues like abortion etc indicate that you see Abhidhamma as hard to relate to the conceptual world? Personally I find it hard to see anything in the texts or daily life that is not related to Abhidhamma. Robert #69898 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > > Dear Han and Sarah, > > I agree with Sarah about bhaavana, which includes many things and > > always goes together with pa~n~naa. > > James: You might want to check out that link again. Sarah > misrepresented what it says. > > Lily used the word meditation, > > but this is interpreted in different ways and can lead to confusion. > > James: There is nothing wrong with how Lily used the > word 'meditation'. The only ones confused are you and Sarah. ;-)). > > Metta, > James Dear James and Sarah I will check the pali of this. Sarah when you give a quote it is helpful if you give a full reference so we can check easily. I will try to find it now, but references should have page numbers and full titles of suttas, plus the exact reference and page number etc for the commentary, really as much information as possible to make it easy to find. Robert > #69899 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) sarahprocter... Hi James (& Rob K & Han*), --- buddhatrue wrote: > > S: As we know the commentaries elaborate these into 10 and that > bhaavanaa- > > here includes expounding the Dhamma (desanaaa), listening to the > Dhamma > > (savana) and straightening one's views (di.t.thujukamma). > > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/punna_kiriya_v.htm > > James: Well, I hate to be a party pooper ;-)), but I checked out your > link and you are misrepresenting the information presented there. ..... New Sarah: What I wrote was this: > According to one sutta (A.iv,241-43) , if one practices > giving and morality to a very limited degree and has > no idea about meditation, one obtains an unfortunate > birth in the human world. .... >S: You (and James) may be surprised and happy to hear I fully agree:-) However, we need to be clear what is meant by meditation here: A quick check of the Pali indicates that the text is referring to the 3 pu~n~na kiriya vatthu (bases of meritorious deeds), i.e siila-maya-, daana-maya- and bhaavanaa-maya- pu~n~na kiriya vatthu: "Idha pana bhikkhave, ekaccassa daanamaya"m pu~n~nakiriyavatthu adhimatta"m kata"m hoti, siilamaya"m pu~n~nakiriyavatthu adhimatta"m kata"m heti, bhaavanaamaya" m pu~n~nakiriyavatthu naabhisambhoti. " S: As we know the commentaries elaborate these into 10 and that bhaavanaa- here includes expounding the Dhamma (desanaaa), listening to the Dhamma (savana) and straightening one's views (di.t.thujukamma) . http://www.palikano n.com/english/ wtb/n_r/punna_ kiriya_v. htm< ..... New Sarah: James, If you look at this old message of Han's, I think you'll see there is no mis-representation. Do ask him, if you still think so! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/66074 Metta, Sarah *Rob, the only quote I gave was for two lines of Pali for which Lily de Silva had given the reference which I quoted above. As I mentioned, it was just a quick note. The title of the sutta given is 'The Pu~n~nakiriya Vatthu Sutta"m' and it is in the Bk 8s. As B.Bodhi explained to me, the titles in AN are often just added later by the Pali transcribers and translators. Therefore they are often different, which is probably by Mrs De Silva and other Pali scholars don't add them to their Pali references. (Page nos also depend on editions, but not relevant to web-Pali. I didn't look at any commentaries either). The other comments were my own, but I added a link for those who wished to check the Nyantiloka dict. for more detail. ... Han, do you have any current news of Mrs de Silva. Is she still alive, I wonder? I ask because we met her in Sri Lanka many years ago when she attended talks and discussions (in Sri Lanka)when Nina and I were there with A.Sujin. She was already a Pali scholar. B.Bodhi and many other bhikkhus also attended some of the discussions. Ven Nyanaponika was still at the Forest Hermitage then - I remember we visited him to pay our respects. ========== #69900 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:06 pm Subject: Outstanding Understanding! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is the Understanding Ability Outstanding? With the development of the Ability of Understanding, Enthusiasm arises! With the elimination of all Skeptical Doubt, Enthusiasm also arises! With the ceasing of the frustration inherent in all Skeptical Doubt, Enthusiasm arises! With the eradication of all fixed mental obstructions linked with wrong view, Enthusiasm arises. With the removal of the gross mental obstructions, Enthusiasm arises. With the dying out of subtle mental obstructions, Enthusiasm also arises! With extinction of all mental obstructions, Enthusiasm arises as a Thunderbolt!!! When through this hilarious & energetic Enthusiasm, gladness arises, then the Ability of Understanding is outstanding as Understanding due to Gladness... When through gladness, happiness arises, then the Ability of Understanding indeed is outstanding as Understanding due to Happiness...When via happiness, tranquillity emerges, then the Ability of Understanding is outstanding due to calmed & stilled Tranquillity... When tranquil, sweet pleasure arises, then the Understanding Ability is outstanding as Understanding due to Pleasure... When through pleasure illumination arises, then this Ability of Understanding is outstanding as Understanding due to Illumination... When through revealing illumination sense of urgency arises, then this single Ability of Understanding is outstanding as Understanding due to the acute & vivid Sense of Urgency... When sensing urgency one concentrates mind, then this Ability of Understanding is outstanding due to well focused Concentration... When one now thoroughly trains the mind thus concentrated, then this Ability of Understanding is outstanding as Understanding due to Effort. When one looks on with complete equanimity at mind thus wielded into fixed focus, then this unique Ability of Understanding is outstanding as Understanding due to Equanimity. When as a prime result of equanimity, mind is liberated from many kinds of mental obstructions, then the Understanding Ability is outstanding as fine Understanding due to Liberation. When mind is all liberated, this mentally unified state come to have a single function and taste, then the Understanding Ability is outstanding as Understanding due to development of single function & taste. When mind is being cultivated and refined, it therefore turns away to what is superior, namely towards Nibbana, then verily this Ability to Understand is outstanding as Understanding due to Turning Away. When a mind remains turned away, then one becomes possessed of the Path… When one, as a consequence, relinquishes both mental obstructions & the clusters of clinging, then Understanding Ability is particularly outstanding as Understanding due to Relinquishment. When due to mental release, the mental obstructions, and the clusters of clinging therefore cease with no re-arising trace remaining, then the Ability of Understanding is outstanding as Understanding due to Ceasing... Source: Sariputta - The General of the Dhamma - The Canonical: Path of Discrimination: Patisambhidamagga. IV. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69901 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > > Sarah > *Rob, the only quote I gave was for two lines of Pali for which Lily de > Silva had given the reference which I quoted above. As I mentioned, it was > just a quick note. > > The title of the sutta given is 'The Pu~n~nakiriya Vatthu Sutta"m' and it > is in the Bk 8s. ___________ Dear Sarah Thanks. I found it on page 165 -166 of the Hare translation, gradual saying iv. http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara5/8-atthakanipata/004-danavaggo-p.htm for easy reading http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php? act=ST&f=17&t=244&st=0#entry1044 Robert #69902 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) buddhatrue --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James (& Rob K & Han*), > > > S: As we know the commentaries elaborate these into 10 and that bhaavanaa- > here includes expounding the Dhamma (desanaaa), listening to the Dhamma > (savana) and straightening one's views (di.t.thujukamma) . > http://www.palikano n.com/english/ wtb/n_r/punna_ kiriya_v. htm< > ..... > New Sarah: > James, If you look at this old message of Han's, I think you'll see there > is no mis-representation. Do ask him, if you still think so! Hi Sarah, Thanks for you additional quote, but you are still misrepresenting what the commentaries state. Here is the information you linked to, all of it, and I will explain at the end: •puñña-kiriya-vatthu 'bases of meritorious action'. In the suttas, 3 are mentioned •consisting of giving (liberality; dāna-maya-p.), •of morality (sīla-maya-p.) and •of mental development (meditation; bhāvanā-maya-p.). See D.33; It.60; expl. in A.VIII.36. Commentaries have a list of ten (dasa p.) which is very popular in Buddhist countries: • (1)-(3) as above, • (4) reverence (apaciti), • (5) service (veyyāvacca), • (6) transference of merit (pattānuppadāna), • (7) rejoicing in others' merit (abbhānumodana), • (8) expounding the Doctrine (desanā), • (9) listening to the Doctrine (savana), • (10) straightening one's right views (rectification of views; ditthujukamma). - James: As we can see, starting from the top, in the suttas 3 bases of meritorious actions are given: 1. liberality, 2. morality, and mental development (meditation). However, the commentaries give 10 bases of meritorious actions: 1. THE FIRST THREE JUST GIVEN, and then 4. reverence, 5. service, 6. transference of merit, 7. rejoicing in other's merit, 8. expounding the Doctrine, 9. listening to the Doctrine, 10. straightening one's right views. The commentaries do not clarify bhavana (meditation) to be these other things, the commentary just lists additional items. Do you understand now? Metta, James #69903 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) sarahprocter... Dear Han (& James), --- han tun wrote: > At the outset I must say that it is very difficult for > me to identify the suttas that were quoted. I have > Pali text in Burmese script and Burmese translation of > Anguttara Nikaya. As regards English translation I > have An Anthology of Suttas from Anguttara Nikaya by > Nyanaponika and Bhikkhu Bodhi, which does not contain > all suttas. The accesstoinsight also does not have all > AN suttas. .... S: You may find it helpful to also use the Metta site which has the Pali and English: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html I just checked in B.Bodhi's translation which you have and I see he does include some of these suttas, in the Ch. of 8s, 161 'Ways of Giving' to 164 'Ways of Meritorious Action' (this sutta being discussed). The first one, 161 'Ways of Giving' is the one Lily de Silva was discussing in interesting detail in your installment #69754, 'The Motivation of Giving'. For the first motive ('Asajja danam deti'), she gave 'one gives with annoyance, or as a way of offending the recipient or with the idea of insulting him.' She added a footnote to explain why she thought the PTS translation: 'One gives alms on one's own accord' is questionable. Of interest is that BB uses: 'One gives spontaneously'. Do you have any idea about what is right from the Burmese or Pali? ... >Even if they have, it won’t help much > because the author had quoted old volumes of > translation by page numbers without sutta title. I > have to read a lot of material to pin-point some of > the suttas. ... S: I think she gives the reference for the Pali which she's using. As I mentioned to Rob, the title often depends on the translator. .... > Fortunately the sutta in question is in the Anthology > by Nyanaponika and Bhikkhu Bodhi. It is AN 8.36 > Pu~n~nakiriya-vatthu Sutta. > > And you are right that the three ways of making merit > mentioned in this sutta are siila-maya-,daana-maya- > and bhaavanaa-maya- pu~n~na kiriya vatthu. > > But bhaavanaa-maya-pu~n~na kiriya vatthu consists of > four items viz., bhaavanaa, dhamma-desanaa, > dhamma-savana, and di.t.thujukamma. ... A: Yes, you and James are correct in this. I mentioned that bhaavanaa-maya punna kiriya vatthu, *included* the last 3, in order to stress them, but it wasn't clear, I see now. Thank you! The first item consists of samattha and vipassana bhavana. If we use 'meditation' in this context, we should be clear that all of these are intended. Even as a translation for either samatha or vipassana bhavana, meditation is misleading in my view! ... >The bhaavanaa may > be translated as meditation both tranquility and > insight. So the translation of “meditation” is not > totally wrong, but it does not cover the entire > bhaavanaa-maya-pu~n~na kiriya vatthu. ... S: I agree. I think the problem is that 'meditation' has a lot of its own connotations these days and can be misleading. Of course, the same applies to many terms. Metta, Sarah ======= #69904 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) hantun1 Dear Sarah (James, Robert), You quoted AN 8.36 Pu~n~nakiriya-vatthu Sutta correctly. I just added that bhaavanaa-maya-pu~n~na kiriya vatthu consists of four items viz., bhaavanaa, dhamma-desanaa, dhamma-savana, and di.t.thujukamma. The bhaavanaa may be translated as meditation both tranquility and insight. So the translation of “meditation” is not totally wrong, but it does not cover the entire bhaavanaa-maya-pu~n~na kiriya vatthu. I do not know Mrs. De Silva personally. I have never been to Sri Lanka. Respectfully, Han #69905 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:39 am Subject: Daana Corner (26) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, This is taken from “Giving in the Pali Canon” by Lily de Silva. Lily de Silva wrote the essay in the following sub-headings: *Functions of Giving* *Qualities of the Donor* *The Donations* *The Donee* *The Motivation of Giving* *The Manner of Giving* *The Value of Giving* The following is “The Value of Giving” (2 of 5 parts) Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ Giving with faith results in the attainment of riches and beauty whenever the fruition of the gift occurs. By giving alms with due deference one gains, in addition, children, wives, subordinates and servants who are obedient, dutiful and understanding. By giving alms at the proper time not only does one obtain great wealth but also timely fulfillment of needs. By giving alms with the genuine desire to help others, one gains great wealth and the inclination to enjoy the best of sense pleasures. By giving alms without hurting oneself and others, one gains security from dangers such as fire, floods, thieves, kings and unloved heirs (A. iii,172). Alms given to recluses and brahmans who follow the Noble Eightfold Path yield wonderful results just as seeds sown on fertile, well-prepared, well-watered fields produce abundant crops (A.iv,238). Alms given without any expectations whatsoever can lead to birth in the Brahma-world, at the end of which one may become a non-returner (A.iv,62). The Dakkhinavibhanga Sutta enumerates a list of persons to whom alms can be offered and the merit accruing therefrom in ascending order. A thing given to an animal brings a reward a hundredfold. A gift given to an ordinary person of poor moral habit yields a reward a thousandfold; a gift given to a virtuous person yields a reward a hundred thousandfold. When a gift is given to a person outside the dispensation of Buddhism who is without attachment to sense pleasures, the yield is a hundred thousandfold of crores. When a gift is given to one on the path to stream-entry the yield is incalculable and immeasurable. So what can be said of a gift given to a stream-enterer, a once-returner, a non-returner, an arahant, a Paccekabuddha, and a Fully Enlightened Buddha? The same sutta emphasizes that a gift given to the Sangha as a group is more valuable than a gift offered to a single monk in his individual capacity. It is said that in the distant future there will be Buddhist monks who wear only a yellow collar as a distinguishing clerical mark, who are immoral and of evil character. If a gift is offered even to such monks in the name of the Order, it yields much more merit than a gift given to a monk in his individual capacity. But it should be observed that this statement is contradictory to ideas expressed elsewhere, that what is given to the virtuous is greatly beneficial but not what is given to the immoral. It is evident here that a later interpolation cannot be altogether ruled out. “The Value of Giving” to be continued. with metta, Han #69906 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. nilovg Dear Colette, you are right that delusion or ignorance is fundamental to the wheel of existence. When there is wrong view of self there is a wrong interpretation of reality and this is conditioned by ignorance. Only the arahat has eradicated ignorance. We have to begin eliminating the view of I study, I am aware, I see, I think. Thus, we have to begin to develop understanding of what it is that sees, thinks, studies. Wrong view is so deeply rooted that we do not notice it that there is this idea of I do this or that. If there is not even a beginning of the elimination of wrong view there is no hope to ever eradicate ignorance, to reach the end of the cycle. That is what I meant. Nina. Op 24-mrt-2007, om 0:08 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > Wheel of > Life. Well, while it's true that a person can never free themselves > from this recurring nightmare, defect in the grooves of the platter, > the record, I think that subscription to this concept of the Wheel is > far more intricate than your designation as Wrong View being the > cause. > There can a greater roll played by the DELUSIONS an individual has > from > the time they're born, but you glossed over such foundaational bija > (seeds). #69907 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Teaching dhamma to children ? sarahprocter... Hi Sebastien & all, You raised a good question. --- Sébastien Billard wrote: > Some friend of mine (in reaction to a french website called > dhammadana.fr > published by a monk) said me that it could be dangerous and > irresponsible to > teach children and young people that nothing is permanent and that > desire is > the source of suffering... I would like to have your opinion on this > topic. .... S: In addition to Christine's and Ven Dhammanando's helpful letters, you may also like to see posts saved in 'Useful Posts' in the files under: *Children - posts addressed to…, see also ‘Teenagers’ *Children (Teaching them dhamma) My own experience is that children are all very, very different (just as adults are). If a child (of any age) has an enquiring mind and raises questions about birth, death, suffering, desire or any dhamma-related topic, I like to question the child gently and encourage him/her to explore the ideas further. Children soon 'switch off' and change the topic/activity when they have no interest or find it distasteful in anyway, I find. Jon was chatting to another lawyer last week who was disturbed because his young children (about 5 and 6 yrs old) had asked him if he was going to die. This was partly because the father is much older than most other fathers. He had tried to change the subject, but I think it's better to ask the children the reasons for their questions (and fears, perhaps) and explore such topics together in an encouraging manner. A child I was teaching a couple of years ago (of about 8 or 9 yrs) had been to visit a new baby in a hospital with his mother. His reaction (to me) was to say 'We're just born to die'. I told him I thought this was very profound and we discussed it further. When I was young (about 6 or 7 yrs old), one day at school a friend just collapsed in the playground while we were playing 'catch'. (She'd had a heart problem which had been undiagnosed). The next morning at assembly, we were all told that she'd gone to heaven to play with the angels and was very happy now. I found that kind of response disturbing and when I got home, I asked my parents how anyone knew this. No one gave me an answer and it went on troubling me for a very long time. Metta, Sarah ======== #69908 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) hantun1 Dear Sarah (James), Sarah: You may find it helpful to also use the Metta site which has the Pali and English: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/index.html Han: Thank you very much for the link. It is indeed very useful. ------------------------------ The text 1. Asajja danam deti: one gives with annoyance, or as a way of offending the recipient, or with the idea of insulting him. Note: Though the PTS translation reads "one gives alms on one's own accord," the accuracy of this translation is questionable. The sutta seems to record motives for giving in ascending order of refinement. If the PTS translation is accepted, the order is disturbed. Moreover, asajja is the gerund of asadeti, which means to strike, offend, assail, insult. Sarah: She (de Silva) added a footnote to explain why she thought the PTS translation: 'One gives alms on one's own accord' is questionable. Of interest is that BB uses: 'One gives spontaneously'. Do you have any idea about what is right from the Burmese or Pali? Han: “aasajja” means (approaching, coming towards), or (hitting, striking), or (insulting, offending, assailing). The Burmese translation uses the meaning of ‘coming towards.’ The donor gives the recipient because the recipient has come to him. Respectfully, Han #69909 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) philofillet Hi Sarah I was writing something and I think it disappeared, but if it appears sorry for the double. > S: Understood;-) Yes, 'unclean' was the wrong word - I couldn't remember > the right one. I was thinking of a cross between you 'scrubbing the bath' > and potty training (#69518) and James' post to the StarKids you might not > read (but which you'd enjoy if you didn't read it before!!). You're right, I used words that suggested "unclean." I was trying to find a suitable metaphor for the arousing of the second right effort, the dropping of unwholesome developments, which we must do again and again and again countless times in a day if we are diligent Buddhists. I say "we must do" because the suttas which inspire me in this direction are phrased in conventional terms, and there is no mention of insight into anatta. That comes later, as a benefit of wholesome patterns of body, speech and mind that are proetced and fostered by diliegence. It's not sexy in a SOWS way and therefore not suitable for posting about or discussing, really. You do it or you don't. Brushing the teeth after every meal? Sitting up straight when one finds one is slouching? I don't know, doesn't matter. Those who know how important it is to be unremittingly diligent about the arising of unwholesome states do it whatever the metaphor is. > I won't say more because I've probably reached your limit already, lol:-). > > Have fun with the baseball season break and look forward to chatting > later. Thanks. One or two more rather long posts to go, probably next Saturday. Metta, Phil #69910 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:06 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nichiconn dear friends, Pa.taacaaraa (2 of 11): Dutiyavaarampi gabbhinii ahosiiti-aadi sabba.m purimanayeneva vitthaaretabba.m. Aya.m pana viseso- yadaa tassaa antaraamagge kammajavaataa cali.msu, tadaa mahaa-akaalamegho udapaadi. Samantato vijjulataahi aaditta.m viya meghathanitehi bhijjamaana.m viya ca udakadhaaraanipaatanirantara.m nabha.m ahosi. Saa ta.m disvaa, "saami, me anovassaka.m .thaana.m jaanaahii"ti aaha. Then she became pregnant a second time, and everything is to be given as before, but with this difference: When her labour pains began on the road {RD: when midway the winds born of Karma blew upon her}, a great untimely storm arose. From all sides there were flashes of lightning like flames, and it was as if the clouds were split by the thundering. Streams of water fell down continuously from the sky. When she saw this, she said, "Husband, find me a place that is sheltered from the rain." So ito cito ca olokento eka.m ti.nasa~nchanna.m gumba.m disvaa tattha gantvaa hatthagataaya vaasiyaa tasmi.m gumbe da.n.dake chinditukaamo ti.nehi sa~nchaaditavammikasiisante u.t.thitarukkhada.n.daka.m chindi. Taavadeva ca na.m tato vammikato nikkhamitvaa ghoraviso aasiiviso .da.msi. So tattheva patitvaa kaalamakaasi. Saa mahaadukkha.m anubhavantii tassa aagamana.m olokentii dvepi daarake vaatavu.t.thi.m asahamaane viravante urantare katvaa, dviihi jaa.nukehi dviihi hatthehi ca bhuumi.m uppii.letvaa yathaa.thitaava ratti.m viitinaametvaa vibhaataaya rattiyaa ma.msapesiva.n.na.m eka.m putta.m pilotikacumba.take nipajjaapetvaa hatthehi urehi ca pariggahetvaa, itara.m "ehi, taata, pitaa te ito gato"ti He looked here and there and saw a thicket covered with grass. He went there, and wanting to cut sticks in that thicket with the axe he held in his hand, he cut a stick from a tree growing on top of an ant hill covered with grass. A terrible, poisonous snake immediately came out of the ant hill and bit him. He fell down on that very spot and died. She experienced great pain as she watched for his return, and the two boys, who could not endure the wind and the rain, cried out against her breast. She pressed both knees and both hands on the ground and spent the night like that. vatvaa saamikena gatamaggena gacchantii ta.m vammikasamiipe kaala"nkata.m nisinna.m disvaa "ma.m nissaaya mama saamiko mato"ti rodantii paridevantii sakalaratti.m devena vu.t.thattaa ja.n.nukappamaa.na.m thanappamaa.na.m udaka.m savanti.m antaraamagge nadi.m patvaa, attano mandabuddhitaaya dubbalataaya ca dviihi daarakehi saddhi.m udaka.m otaritu.m avisahantii je.t.thaputta.m orimatiire .thapetvaa itara.m aadaaya paratiira.m gantvaa saakhaabha"nga.m attharitvaa tattha pilotikacumba.take nipajjaapetvaa "itarassa santika.m gamissaamii"ti baalaputtaka.m pahaatu.m asakkontii punappuna.m nivattitvaa olokayamaanaa nadi.m otarati. At dawn, she laid down one son, who was the color of a piece of flesh, on a pillow of cloth; and she grasped the other with her hands to her breast, saying, "Come, child. Your father has gone away from here." She went along the path taken by her husband and saw him seated close to the ant hill dead. Crying our and lamenting, she said, "Because of me, my husband is dead." She arrived at a river on the way that was flowing with water that was knee deep or chest deep due to the rain all night. Because of her own sluggish intellect and weakness, she was not able to go into the water with both her sons, so she placed the elder son on the near bank, and taking the other one, she went to the far bank, strew out a bundle of branches, and laid him on a pillow of cloth. Thinking, "I will go back for the other one," but unable to abandon the younger child, she turned back and looked at him over and over again as she descended into the river. === connie #69911 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (26) hantun1 Dear Sarah and others, Lily de Silva had again quoted a number of suttas in ‘The Value of Giving’ which I post in Daana Corner (26) If we break up the first paragraph into its constituent parts we get as follows: (1) Giving with faith results in the attainment of riches and beauty whenever the fruition of the gift occurs. (2) By giving alms with due deference one gains, in addition, children, wives, subordinates and servants who are obedient, dutiful and understanding. (3) By giving alms at the proper time not only does one obtain great wealth but also timely fulfillment of needs. (4) By giving alms with the genuine desire to help others, one gains great wealth and the inclination to enjoy the best of sense pleasures. (5) By giving alms without hurting oneself and others, one gains security from dangers such as fire, floods, thieves, kings and unloved heirs (A. iii,172). For details you can also click on the following link. AN 5.148 Sappurisadana Sutta: A Person of Integrity's Gifts, Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.148.than.html Han: I would like to draw the kind attention of the readers to the fifth way of giving, viz., giving a gift without adversely affecting himself or OTHERS. Respectfully, Han > Giving with faith results in the attainment of riches and beauty whenever the fruition of the gift occurs. By giving alms with due deference one gains, in addition, children, wives, subordinates and servants who are obedient, dutiful and understanding. By giving alms at the proper time not only does one obtain great wealth but also timely fulfillment of needs. By giving alms with the genuine desire to help others, one gains great wealth and the inclination to enjoy the best of sense pleasures. By giving alms without hurting oneself and others, one gains security from dangers such as fire, floods, thieves, kings and unloved heirs (A. iii,172). > #69912 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Robert & James, and all) - In a message dated 3/24/07 4:30:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > A: Yes, you and James are correct in this. I mentioned that bhaavanaa-maya > punna kiriya vatthu, *included* the last 3, in order to stress them, but > it wasn't clear, I see now. Thank you! The first item consists of samattha > and vipassana bhavana. If we use 'meditation' in this context, we should > be clear that all of these are intended. Even as a translation for either > samatha or vipassana bhavana, meditation is misleading in my view! > ... > >The bhaavanaa may > >be translated as meditation both tranquility and > >insight. So the translation of “meditationâ€? is not > >totally wrong, but it does not cover the entire > >bhaavanaa-maya-pu~n~na kiriya vatthu. > ... > S: I agree. I think the problem is that 'meditation' has a lot of its own > connotations these days and can be misleading. Of course, the same applies > to many terms. > =========================== Sarah, who is speaking where in the foregoing, please? Who is "A" (or does that mean "answer")? If it is you writing "A", or even if it is not, what English would *you* use for 'samatha bhavana' and 'vipassana bhavana' that you prefer to 'meditation'? In my opinion, 'meditation' serves rather well for samatha bhavana, and somewhat less well for vipassana (and in-tandem samatha & vipassana) bhavana, for the training of the satipatthana and anapanasati suttas centrally includes but definitely goes beyond what is typically referred to as 'meditation'. Dhamma practice as a whole, of course, certainly goes beyond meditation, but that isn't the matter I'm addressing in this paragraph. With metta, Howard #69913 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) sarahprocter... Anyone confused, typo: --- sarah abbott wrote: > A: Yes, you and James are correct in this. .... A=S in a hurry:) More later SA #69914 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:22 am Subject: RE: [dsg] The Ability to Understand! bhikkhu5 Friend TG: >paying bare attention to experiences would probably bear little >fruit unless the knowledge of conditionality is well known. Indeed the understanding of this essential fragility, dependency, Not-in-itself-existing, bound-to-cease, of all phenomena is the only really effective antidote that can break clinging to such ephemerals! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #69915 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:10 am Subject: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear All, In Sammohavinodanii (The Dispeller of Delusion), regarding 'the distinguishing an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable': "42. But the Elder Tipi.taka Cuula-Abhaya said: 'The agreeable and disagreeable are distinguishable according to [kamma-] result (vipaaka) only, not according to impulsion (javana). But it is impulsion through perversion of perception (sa~n~navipallasa) only that lusts for the agreeable or hates the same agreeable, that lusts for the disagreeable or hates the same disagreeable. Only by way of [kamma-]result, however, is it rightly distinguishable. For [kamma] resultant consciousness cannot be mistaken. If the object is agreeable it is profitable result that has arisen; if disagreeable, it is unprofitable result that has arisen.' "43. Although those of wrong view, on seeing such exalted objects as the Enlightened One or the Order, or a great shrine and so on, shut their eyes and feel grief (domanassa), and on hearing the sound of the Law they stop their ears, nevertheless their eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc., are only profitable [kamma-]result." It gives one pause. Kamma-resultant consciousness cannot be mistaken, but 'I' can. How often is one's perception of what is 'agreeable', for example, a function of 'impulsion' versus a knowing of what is vipaaka? Sincerely, Scott. #69916 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:30 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 4, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Like the other sense objects, sound has as its proximate cause the four Great Elements. No matter what sound we hear, it has a degree of loudness and it “strikes the ear”. Its characteristic can be experienced without the need to think about it. We may hear the sound of a bird and it seems that we know at once the origin of the sound. When we know the origin of the sound it is not hearing, but thinking of a concept. However, the thinking is conditioned by the hearing. It seems that we can hear different sounds at a time, for example when a chord is played on the piano. When we recognize the different notes of a chord it is not hearing but thinking. When there is awareness, one reality at a time can be known as it is. Sound can be produced by temperature or by citta. Sound of wind or sound of water is produced by temperature. Speech sound is produced by citta. We are inclined to find a loud noise disturbing and we may make ourselves believe that there cannot be mindfulness of realities when we hear a loud noise. We read in the “Theragåthå” (Psalms of the Brothers, Part VII, 62, Vajjiputta) about a monk of the Vajjian clan who was dwelling in a wood near Vesålí. The commentary to this verse (Paramatthadípaní) states: ... Now a festival took place at Vesålí, and there was dancing, singing and reciting, all the people happily enjoying the festival. And the sound thereof distracted the bhikkhu, so that he quitted his solitude, gave up his exercise, and showed forth his disgust in this verse: Each by himself we in the forest dwell, Like logs rejected by the woodman’s craft. So flit the days one like another by, Who more unlucky in their lot than we? Now a woodland deva heard him, and had compassion on the bhikkhu, and thus upbraided him, “Even though you, bhikkhu, speak scornfully of forest life, the wise desiring solitude think much of it,” and to show him the advantage of it spoke this verse: Each by himself we in the forest dwell, Like logs rejected by the woodman’s craft. And many a one does envy me my lot, Even as the hell-bound envies him who fares to heaven. Then the bhikkhu, stirred like a thoroughbred horse by the spur, went down into the avenue of insight, and striving soon won arahatship. Thereupon he thought, “The deva’s verse has been my goad!” and he recited it himself. By this Sutta we are reminded that aversion to noise is not helpful. Our most important task is being mindful of whatever reality presents itself. When sound appears correct understanding of this reality can be developed. It can be known as a kind of rúpa and it does not matter what kind of sound it is. ******* Nina. #69917 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:34 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Letter about Vipassanå 11 We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (I, Sagåthå-vagga, Ch I, The Devas, 3, The Sword Suttas, § 1, By impending Sword) that a deva said to the Buddha: As one downsmitten by impending sword, As one whose hair and turban are aflame, So let the bhikkhu, mindful and alert, Go forth, all worldly passions left behind. The Exalted One said: As one downsmitten by impending sword, As one whose hair and turban are aflame, So let the bhikkhu, mindful and alert, Go forth, leaving personality-belief behind. Just as the person who has been struck by a sword or whose hair and turban are aflame will not be neglectful but apply energy to remedy his dangerous situation, evenso should the bhikkhu not be neglectful, but mindful and alert. The Buddha repeated what the deva said, but he changed one line, and this change is very meaningful. The deva spoke about subduing the sense pleasures, but so long as they have not been eradicated, will one be bound by clinging to them. They cannot be eradicated when there is still the wrong view of self. We read in the commentary to this sutta, the “Såratthappakåsiní”, that the Buddha, in view of this, wanted to change the deva’s verse, using the same similes but applying them to the magga-citta of the sotåpanna (the streamwinner, who attains the first stage of enlightenment), which citta eradicates personality-belief, sakkåya ditthi. We may easily overlook the subtle point of this sutta. We understand in theory that first of all wrong view has to be eradicated before finally, at the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the anågåmí (non-returner), clinging to sense pleasures can be eradicated. Even though we know this, we are still inclined to worry about our attachment to sense pleasures instead of knowing its characteristic when it appears. This is the only way to finally be able to eradicate it. ****** Nina. #69918 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (26) nilovg Dear Han, this would be giving of alcoholic drinks. Or silly movies that distract from what is really worth while in life. What do you think? Nina. Op 24-mrt-2007, om 13:10 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I would like to draw the kind attention of the > readers to the fifth way of giving, viz., giving a > gift without adversely affecting himself or OTHERS. #69919 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Sarah (and Robert & James, and all) - > In my opinion, 'meditation' serves rather well for samatha bhavana, > and somewhat less well for vipassana (and in-tandem samatha & vipassana) > bhavana, for the training of the satipatthana and anapanasati suttas centrally > includes but definitely goes beyond what is typically referred to as 'meditation'. > Dhamma practice as a whole, of course, certainly goes beyond meditation, but > that isn't the matter I'm addressing in this paragraph. Exactly. I think that this entire ruckus over the word "meditation" is really unnecessary. Actually, my heart-felt opinion is that it is just pretentious. "Bhavana" is usually translated as "meditation". But then there are those "purists" who don't like that word because it is used in so many non-Buddhist settings (Oh, horror of horrors!), so they prefer to translate bhavana as mental development. Hmmm…how is "mental development" any clearer than "meditation"? Answer: it isn't- but at least no one else uses "mental development"! Again, the motivation for avoiding the use of the word "meditation" is just pretentious elitism. Take for example this quote: • bhâvanâ 'mental development' (lit. 'calling into existence, producing') is what in English is generally but rather vaguely called 'meditation'. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/bhaavanaa.htm Oh yes, because it is `generally' called meditation, so that makes it `vague"--- again, just a pretentious attitude! "Mental Development" is just as vague as "Meditation", as far as words go. Actually, bhavana is supposed to be seen as a vague word. In the Pali Canon it is combined with other words in order to be more specific: Metta-bhavana Samatha-bhavana Vipassana-bhavana Now, these pretentious scholars have no problems with these phrases, but if you suggest: Metta meditation Samatha meditation Vipassana meditation Suddenly, the phraseology is just too "vague" so they won't accept it. Utter nonsense. Metta, James #69920 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) nilovg Hi Phil, no need to answer this. For a beginner, we must first know what is kusala and what is akusala, see the value of kusala and the harm of akusala. We read this in the suttas, but the Buddha wanted us to verify this ourselves, not blindly following what we read. I think it needs already a degree of understanding to know the foregoing and to realize, even still coarsely, the moments of kusala and akusala. It also helps to know the conditions for kusala and for akusala. If we see that kusala and akusala do not arise at will, but that they are dependent on the appropriate conditions, we move already into the direction of understanding them as a dhamma, as having no owner. In this way there is a beginning of understanding anatta. Nina. Op 24-mrt-2007, om 12:55 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > the dropping of unwholesome developments, which we must do > again and again and again countless times in a day if we are diligent > Buddhists. I say "we must do" because the suttas which inspire me in > this direction are phrased in conventional terms, and there is no > mention of insight into anatta. That comes later, as a benefit of > wholesome patterns of body, speech and mind #69921 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:52 pm Subject: ahosi kamma nichiconn Dear Searchers for Loopholes, turns out that ahosi kamma isn't one... I'd thought ahosi meant something along the lines of 'kamma that can no longer bring a result', like it's time was up. I think Htoo may have tried to expain this to me before and I still missed it. There's a short couple minute discussion of it in 2005-10-12-a-Benares1.mp3 where it is explained it is just "that kamma which has been done" ... "it will produce result". Also, there is this quote from The Path of Purity, ch.19, p.724: [601] In this respect there are four kinds of karma {For this and the two following paragraphs see Compendium, pp.144-5}: karma (the fruit of which is) to be experienced in this life, karma (the fruit of which is) to be experienced in (the next life), karma (the fruit of which is) to be experienced in some after life, karma "which has been." {Ahosi-Kamma.m.} Of them, the first apperceptional volition, moral or immoral, out of the seven classes of consciousness in a single process of apperception, is known as karma (the fruit of which is) to be experienced in this life. It gives fruit during this very life. That which is unable to do so is karma "which has been," so called by way of the triple statement: there was no fruit of karma, there will be no fruit of karma, there is no fruit of karma. The seventh apperceptional volition which effects its purpose is known as karma (the fruit of which is) to be experienced in (the next) life. It yields fruit in the immediately succeeding life. That which is unable to do so is, as said above, karma "which has been." Volition of the five apperceptions between the first and the seventh is known as karma (the fruit of which is) to be experienced in some after life. It yields fruit in the future when an opportunity occurs. **There is no karma "which has been" when the round of births is proceeding.** peace, connie #69922 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:23 pm Subject: Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, This is a little misleading because "intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable" is conventional in the sense that it is what most mature responsible worldly people (merchants, lawyers, etc.) consider to be agreeable and disagreeable, e.g., fame, wealth, beauty, health or their opposites. I think this indicates that conventionality is the foundation of the ultimate reality of kamma. For example, in some cultures being fat is agreeable while in other cultures being fat is disagreeable. Also I think we could say that a kusala impulsion with an akusala vipaka citta object is never a perversion of perception. Liking an agreeable object is still akusala and hence accompanied by ignorance and no doubt sa~n~naa vipallasa. However, as a side issue, I think this line of reasoning supports the idea that 5-door consciousness is a reflection of its object. In other words, what we experientially know as light is consciousness. In abhidhamma 5-door consciousness is resultant (vipaka). It is not a rupa. But what we are labeling as agreeable is a rupa. What we _should_ label as agreeable is the resultant consciousness. Therefore it makes sense that the consciousness is a reflection of the rupa, a proxy in a different medium. Living in a house with a beautiful view is not agreeable if you are blind. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear All, > > In Sammohavinodanii (The Dispeller of Delusion), regarding 'the > distinguishing an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable': > > "42. But the Elder Tipi.taka Cuula-Abhaya said: 'The agreeable and > disagreeable are distinguishable according to [kamma-] result > (vipaaka) only, not according to impulsion (javana). But it is > impulsion through perversion of perception (sa~n~navipallasa) only > that lusts for the agreeable or hates the same agreeable, that lusts > for the disagreeable or hates the same disagreeable. Only by way of > [kamma-]result, however, is it rightly distinguishable. For [kamma] > resultant consciousness cannot be mistaken. If the object is > agreeable it is profitable result that has arisen; if disagreeable, it > is unprofitable result that has arisen.' > > "43. Although those of wrong view, on seeing such exalted objects as > the Enlightened One or the Order, or a great shrine and so on, shut > their eyes and feel grief (domanassa), and on hearing the sound of the > Law they stop their ears, nevertheless their eye-consciousness, > ear-consciousness, etc., are only profitable [kamma-]result." > > It gives one pause. Kamma-resultant consciousness cannot be mistaken, > but 'I' can. > > How often is one's perception of what is 'agreeable', for example, a > function of 'impulsion' versus a knowing of what is vipaaka? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #69923 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ahosi kamma m_nease Hi Connie, ----- Original Message ----- From: "connie" To: "dsg" Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 11:52 AM Subject: [dsg] ahosi kamma > Dear Searchers for Loopholes, > > turns out that ahosi kamma isn't one... I'd thought ahosi meant something > along the lines of 'kamma that can no longer bring a result', like it's > time was up. I think Htoo may have tried to expain this to me before and > I still missed it. Have I still got this wrong? > There's a short couple minute discussion of it in > 2005-10-12-a-Benares1.mp3 where it is explained it is just "that kamma > which has been done" ... "it will produce result". This seems contrary to: > That which is unable to do so is karma > "which has been [ahosi]," so called by way of the triple statement: there was > no fruit of karma, there will be no fruit of karma, there is no fruit of > karma. As I think I mentioned off-line, I thought this kind of kamma could not bear fruit because the other conditions necessary for the vipaaka to arise were absent, or counter-conditions resulting from some other kamma were present and of sufficient strength to prevent the other resultant. Do you read this as being contrary to what you've cited here? > The seventh apperceptional volition which effects its purpose is > known as karma (the fruit of which is) to be experienced in (the next) > life. It yields fruit in the immediately succeeding life. What is the meaning of > That which is > unable to do so is, as said above, karma "which has been." by your reading? What means "unable to do so"? > Volition of the > five apperceptions between the first and the seventh is known as karma > (the fruit of which is) to be experienced in some after life. It yields > fruit in the future when an opportunity occurs. **There is no karma "which > has been" when the round of births is proceeding.** I see you've placed the final sentence in double asterisks--do you find it particularly significant? Thanks in Advance, mike #69924 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:56 pm Subject: Re: ahosi kamma lbidd2 Hi Connie, C: "turns out that ahosi kamma isn't one... I'd thought ahosi meant something along the lines of 'kamma that can no longer bring a result', like it's time was up. I think Htoo may have tried to expain this to me before and I still missed it." L: You didn't miss it, that's it. The kamma of the first impulsion (javana citta) has to come to fruition in this life. If it doesn't, it is kamma ahosi. Its time is up. Similarly the kamma of the 7th impulsion has to come to fruition in the next life. If it doesn't, it is kamma ahosi. The kamma of the other 5 impulsions can come to fruition anytime in the future. Of course this kamma has to be a strong kamma, a course of action (kamma patha). I think a course of action can be an accumulation (aayuuhana) of many relatively minor actions, for example, giving alms. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > > > Dear Searchers for Loopholes, > > turns out that ahosi kamma isn't one... I'd thought ahosi meant something > along the lines of 'kamma that can no longer bring a result', like it's > time was up. I think Htoo may have tried to expain this to me before and > I still missed it. > > There's a short couple minute discussion of it in > 2005-10-12-a-Benares1.mp3 where it is explained it is just "that kamma > which has been done" ... "it will produce result". > > Also, there is this quote from The Path of Purity, ch.19, p.724: > [601] In this respect there are four kinds of karma {For this and the two > following paragraphs see Compendium, pp.144-5}: karma (the fruit of which > is) to be experienced in this life, karma (the fruit of which is) to be > experienced in (the next life), karma (the fruit of which is) to be > experienced in some after life, karma "which has been." {Ahosi-Kamma.m.} > Of them, the first apperceptional volition, moral or immoral, out of the > seven classes of consciousness in a single process of apperception, is > known as karma (the fruit of which is) to be experienced in this life. It > gives fruit during this very life. That which is unable to do so is karma > "which has been," so called by way of the triple statement: there was no > fruit of karma, there will be no fruit of karma, there is no fruit of > karma. The seventh apperceptional volition which effects its purpose is > known as karma (the fruit of which is) to be experienced in (the next) > life. It yields fruit in the immediately succeeding life. That which is > unable to do so is, as said above, karma "which has been." Volition of the > five apperceptions between the first and the seventh is known as karma > (the fruit of which is) to be experienced in some after life. It yields > fruit in the future when an opportunity occurs. **There is no karma "which > has been" when the round of births is proceeding.** > > > peace, > connie > #69925 From: han tun Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (26) hantun1 Dear Nina, Yes, Nina, it is true that if one gives such gifts as alcoholic drinks, silly movies, weapons, and poison it may affect adversely to others. I was also thinking of the third party who might be involved in the process. But, on second thought, I rather not open up the discussion again! Respectfully, Han #69926 From: "colette" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. ksheri3 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:> > Dear Colette, > To me this is Dhamma. Not the > outward circumstances or situations are the real cause of being in > peace or not, but our own cittas. colette: so the Dhamma ends at that point where it reaches YOU. And you do not have any effect on the dhamma when it comes into contact with you, the dhamma remains constant, it has inherent Self-Existance since you have no effect on it but it has a lot of effect on you. In the Mind-Only school of Yogacara they/we do MENTAL YOGA, we attempt to percieve that which is not ours, as if EXPERIENCE were/is a personal thing. You have taken something, dhamma, and crystalized it, polarized it, and this causes you to CLING TO IT, to clutch at it, to maintain it as if it were a ring you named PRECIOUS while your name is Golum, see J.R.R.Tolkien. The Dhamma is an illusion just as we are all illusions, in one form or another. --------------------------------- > > I am very grateful to the Buddha that he taught in detail about > cittas, so that we know what is akusala and thus harmful, and what is > kusala which is valuable and to be pursued. colette: that is all fine & dandy, why sure I am greatful to have predessessors and people that have had the consciousness to pursue what I pursue, BUT that's where it ends and my life is just that it is my life, not the Buddha's life, not some monastic ritual behavior that I've gotta become a slave to, it is my life whether the buddha likes it or not and I am not going to disrespect my colleagues that study this with me and are trying to support my efforts, encourage my efforts, etc. They are with me and they know enough about me for them to accept me as I am, not as the status quo hallucinates I should be. I come from the position that YOU ARE CLINGING, YOU ARE ENTIRELY DEPENDENT ON the dhamma, YOU REFUSE TO ALLOW ANY OTHER BELIEF OR WAY OF LIFE TO EXIST IN THE STUDY OF BUDDHISM IF IT DOES NOT CONFORM TO YOUR PERAMETERS, YOUR OBSCURATIONS, OF THE DHAMMA, ETC. <...> -------------------------------- > When there is ignorance about ourselves, our cittas, we live in > darkness, colette: and light, therefore, according to your SPECIFICATIONS, is dependent on YOUR OPINION OF WHETHER OR NOT SOMETHING IS TRUE, which takes us to a new level of examination according to Abhidamma standards. --------------------- in the wilderness of wrong view. Understanding is the > light, it lights up the darkness. colette: and what lights up the darkness for you does not nessessarily light up the darkness for another person. <....> The Buddha taught us the way > leading out of ignorance but we have to follow the Buddha's Path > ourselves, <...> toodles, colette #69927 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) philofillet --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Phil, > no need to answer this. For a beginner, we must first know what is > kusala and what is akusala, see the value of kusala and the harm of > akusala. We read this in the suttas, but the Buddha wanted us to > verify this ourselves, not blindly following what we read. I think it > needs already a degree of understanding to know the foregoing and to > realize, even still coarsely, the moments of kusala and akusala. NO, Nina. You and Acharn Sujin are wrong on this point. It does not take subtle understanding to know what is kusala and akusala for a beginner. It is common sense enlightened by the Buddha's simple instructions. Sujinists go wrong, way wrong, when they force deep teachings on people who do not have suitable understanding. This is very clear to me now. Fortunately, not many beginners are listening to Acharn Sujin - hopefully it will stay that way. It is not *blindly* when one sees that certain intentional actions lead to one's well-being and that of others, or more likely avoiding harm. You are too fascinated and attached to panna and thereby fail to preach the simple benefits of Buddhist morality in my opinion. Panna will not possibly come until wholesome habits of body, speech and mind are developed, and they require only the most fundamental, non-exclsive to Dhamma aspects of discretionary choices as a prerequisite shelter for development. Metta, Phil #69928 From: connie Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:41 pm Subject: re: ahosi kamma nichiconn Hi mike, Larry, others, It might be that I'm mixing up "function" and "occasion for results". That is,(I think), even the ahosi kamma could still function as (at least) supporting or obstructive kamma, which is still part of how we generally seem to think of 'result'. You know the saying that "nothing is lost"... That and reminding myself to compare it with the other translation (below; which seems to support what you said, mike) is why I emphasized the last sentence of the earlier quote: **There is no karma "which has been" when the round of births is proceeding.** jury still out, connie Path of Purification, xix, 14: Herein, kamma is fourfold: to be experienced here and now, to be experienced on rebirth, to be experienced in some subsequent becoming, and lapsed kamma.* Of these, (i) the volition, either profitable or unprofitable, of the first of the seven impulsion consciousnesses in a single cognitive series of impulsions is called kamma to be experienced here and now: it gives its result in this same selfhood. But if it cannot do so, it is called (iv) lapsed kamma (ahosi-kamma), according to the triad described thus 'There has been (ahosi) kamma, there has been no kamma-result, there will be no kamma-result' (see Ps. ii, 78). (ii) The volition of the seventh impulsion that accomplishes its purpose is called kamma to be experienced on rebirth: it gives its result in the next selfhood. If it cannot do so, it is called (iv) lapsed kamma in the way already described. (iii) The volition of the five impulsions between these two is called kamma to be experienced in some subsequent becoming: it gives its result in the future when it gets the opportunity, and however long the round of rebirths continues it never becomes lapsed kamma. the footnote to that: '"To be experienced here and now" means kamma whose fruit is to be experienced in this present selfhood. "To be experienced on re-birth" means kamma whose fruit is to be experienced [in the becoming] next to the present becoming. "To be experienced in some subsequent existence" means kamma whose fruit is to be experienced in some successive selfhood other than either that here and now or next to that here and now. "Lapsed kamma" is kamma of which it has to be said "There has been kamma, but there has not been, is not, and will not be, kamma-result". 'The volition of the first impulsion, which has efficient power by not being prevented by opposition and by having acquired the distinction of a condition, and which has definitely occurred as a prior kamma-formation of the appropriate kind, giving its fruit in this same selfhood, is called "to be experienced here and now." For while that first-impulsion volition, being effective in the way stated, is helpful to what is associated with its special qualities in the impulsion continuity, yet because it wields little power over aspects and because it has little result owing to lack of repetition, it is not, like the other two kinds, kamma that looks beyond the occuring continuity and looks to obtain an opportunity; it gives its fruit here only as mere result during the course of becoming, like a mere flower. "But if it cannot do so": kamma's giving of result comes about only through the due concurrence of conditions consisting of (suitable) essentials of becoming, means, etc., failing which it is unable to give its result in that selfhood. "That accomplishes its purpose": that fulfils its purpose consisting in giving, etc., and in killing, and so on. For the seventh impulsion to which this refers is the final impulsion in the series, and when it has acquired distinction in the way already stated and has acquired distinction in the way already stated and has acquired the service of repetition by the previous impulsions, it gives its result in the next selfhood and is called to be experienced on rebirth"' (Pm. 769) #69929 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:59 pm Subject: Re: Paramattha and conventional ken_aitch Hi Robert (and Nina), ----------- <. . .> RK: > Do your earlier comments about leaving up to science any issues like abortion etc indicate that you see Abhidhamma as hard to relate to the conceptual world? ------------ I think Nina (if I have understood her correctly) pointed to the nub of this issue when she wrote: > Metta is a foundation for siila and then we do not need to tire ourselves with arguments for and against abortion and other concepts. Is there right at this moment metta? No matter in what circumstances? > (end quote) Isn't it true that wholesome consciousness will never do any harm to anyone? Does metta need to know the finer points of the abortion debate (for example)? ---------- RK: > Personally I find it hard to see anything in the texts or daily life that is not related to Abhidhamma. ---------- Sure, but does that mean there is an Abhidhamma-sanctioned side to every political and social issue? I don't think so. I think it means there are only dhammas. Ken H #69930 From: Sobhana Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hi Scott, all, Scott:Seriously though, it did seem, when coupled with the concern regarding the doing of good and bad deeds, not to mention where a 'person' will end up, that your use of 'person' was more than just figurative. No need not to use 'person' when it is clear that this is only figurative. Are you sure you're clear on this? Sobhana: Truthfully, I'm still not a 100% clear on anatta yet. I feel like a first-grader studying quantum physics when it comes to anatta. When the right time comes, hopefully the panna will automatically understand it (keyword 'hopefully'). When namarupa-paricheda-nyana insight arises, it that the first sign of anatta? Is namarupa-paricheda-nyana understanding even considered part of the stages of insight, or is it just a scratch on the surface? Scott: I think that all this emphasis on 'doing good deeds' is being placed from the point of view of strong belief in self and belief in self as agent. This goes to the point made above. One has to really know whether a desire to do good is kusala or not. What looks and feels like a 'good deed' may have akusala roots. This is not so easy to know sometimes. Sobhana:I see many christian nuns do lots of good deeds, take for example Mother Theresa who helped the orphans in India. Since she is a christian, she might not know about 'anatta'. The good deeds that she has done in her life, I suppose were performed with a belief in self and therefore 'those good deeds have Akusala roots'? Must all good deeds be carried out with the knowledge/understanding of 'anatta' before it become a 'valid' kusala deed? What happens to non-Buddhists who are kind, compassionate, I mean truly kind and compassionate because they think they are doing god's work? Is their effort wasted because they have wrong-view? Warm regards, Sobhana #69931 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana upasaka_howard Hi, Sobhana - In a message dated 3/24/07 9:11:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, shennieca@... writes: > Must all good deeds be carried out with the knowledge/understanding of > 'anatta' before it become a 'valid' kusala deed? What happens to non-Buddhists > who are kind, compassionate, I mean truly kind and compassionate because they > think they are doing god's work? Is their effort wasted because they have > wrong-view? > ========================= An excellent question, Sobhana, one to which I think you already have an answer. Here's mine: A truly kind, compassionate God-believer, I think of Gandhi as a great example, is not wasting his/her good efforts, and his/her compassionate deeds are indeed good kamma. S/he is a cultivator and practitioner of sila. His/her compassionate action will, besides doing good for others, also cultivate selflessness in him/herself, and s/he should be commended. I believe the Buddha would commend such a person. With metta, Howard #69932 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:46 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (14) philofillet Hi Nina and all > NO, Nina. You and Acharn Sujin are wrong on this point. I'd like to apologize for the aggressive tone of my post. I'm clearly a bit touchy on certain Dhamma-related issues. I do stand by what I wrote, but if I can't be gentle and respectful in my posting, there is something wrong with my basic approach to Dhamma, I think. Anyways, vowing to be gentler.... Metta, Phil #69933 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:06 pm Subject: Optimal Observance III bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 8 Precepts which brings Divinity? The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day endowed with eight features brings high reward and blessing, & is of sublime dignity and greatness. And which are these eight features? In this, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats avoid sexual intercourse, dwelling celibate, abiding aloof, far above copulation and masturbation, vulgar animal-like praxis... May also I, this day and night, avoid copulation and masturbation... By that I will follow the track & traits of the perfected Arahats! I shall then have observed the Uposatha observance day perfectly. With this third praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features brings high - even divine - reward & blessing & is of sublime dignity and immense greatness... Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:44 http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm More on this Optimal Buddhist Uposatha Day Observance: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Fullmoon_Observance_Day.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/atthasila.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Optimal Observance III: Neither copulating nor masturbating! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #69934 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (14) nilovg Hi Phil, In what way? I do not understand what you mean. Nina Op 25-mrt-2007, om 7:46 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > NO, Nina. You and Acharn Sujin are wrong on this point. #69935 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) nilovg Hi Phil I had not seen your other post. Is it subtle understanding to know what is kusala and akusala? By one's own experience one can find out what leads to harm both for oneself and others. Nina. Op 25-mrt-2007, om 1:20 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > It does not > take subtle understanding to know what is kusala and akusala for a > beginner. It is common sense enlightened by the Buddha's simple > instructions. #69936 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 10, no 6. nilovg Dear Colette, I find that we have no common points that we can discuss, but that is all right. Nina. Op 24-mrt-2007, om 23:51 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > The Dhamma is an illusion just as > we are all illusions, in one form or another. #69937 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:08 am Subject: Vusuddhimagga Ch XVII, 141 and Tiika. nilovg Vusuddhimagga Ch XVII, 141. Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga explains that kusala kamma of the sense sphere produces rebirth as a human or as a deva. The object of the last javanacittas is a vision of the future destiny and is apprehended through the mind-door. ---------- Text Vis.141. In another's case, owing to blameless sense-sphere kamma, there comes into focus in the mind door at the time of death the sign of a happy destiny, in other words, the appearance of the mother's womb in the case of the human world or the appearance of pleasure groves, divine palaces, wishing trees, etc., in the case of the divine world [24]. -------- Note 24, taken from the Tiika: 'By the words "the appearance of the mother's womb", etc., only visual appearance is given as the sign of destiny. Herein, in the first place it would be logical that sound has not been given in the Commentaries as a sign of destiny because it is included in the happy destinies as not-clung-to, but the reason for odour, etc., not having been given, will be inquired into' (Pm. 609). ------------- N: Sound is ‘not clung to’, because sound is not a ruupa belonging to the body. Ruupa produced by kamma is called: clung to, upaadinna, and this is also said of all the ruupas of the body. ---------- Text Vis.: His rebirth-linking consciousness arises next to the death consciousness in the order shown for the sign of an unhappy destiny. This is the kind of rebirth-linking that has a 'present' object and comes next to death consciousness with a 'past' object. ------------------------- Conclusion: As we have seen (Vis. 138), in the case of a vision of a future destiny which is an unhappy plane, as to the expression, ‘ there comes into focus at the mind door’, the Tiika explains that, driven by the force of kamma colour becomes an object experienced through the mind-door for someone who as it were has a dreamlike vision, or who has as it were the ‘divine eye’. During the last process of cittas before dying, the adverting- consciousness adverts to the object, in this case, through the mind- door, and then five javanacittas arise which are in this case kusala cittas. These are followed by the dying-consciousness which has a the same object as the bhavangacittas of the life that is about to end. Then eleven consciousnesses have elapsed The lifespan of that object is five more moments of citta. Therefore, it is said, just as in the case of the vision of an unhappy destiny, that the rebirth-linking has a 'present' object next to death with a 'past' object. We do not know which of the kusala kammas performed in the past will produce rebirth. Kusala kamma that is not of the level of jhaana can produce rebirth in the human plane or in one of the six classes of deva-planes that are also sensuous planes of existence. In the deva planes there are less unpleasant objects compared to the objects in the human plane. When we perform dana or observe siila, we can do so with the expectation of a happy rebirth. When we perform kusala kamma in order to have less defilements, without any expectations of a pleasant result, the kusala kamma is purer. Mindfulness and right understanding of nama and rupa can accompany the performing of good deeds, and in that way we can learn not to take kusala kamma for self. Right understanding of naama and ruupa can develop until arahatship has been reached, and then there will be no more rebirth. ******* Nina. #69938 From: connie Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:56 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nichiconn dear friends, #3/11, Pa.taacaaraa: Athassaa nadiimajjha.m gatakaale eko seno ta.m daaraka.m disvaa "ma.msapesii"ti sa~n~naaya aakaasato bhassi. Saa ta.m disvaa ubho hatthe ukkhipitvaa "suusuu"ti tikkhattu.m mahaasadda.m nicchaaresi. Seno duurabhaavena ta.m anaadiyanto kumaara.m gahetvaa vehaasa.m uppati. Orimatiire .thito putto ubho hatthe ukkhipitvaa mahaasadda.m nicchaarayamaana.m disvaa "ma.m sandhaaya vadatii"ti sa~n~naaya vegena udake pati. Iti baalaputtako senena, je.t.thaputtako udakena hato. When she arrived at the middle of the river, a hawk saw her son. Thinking it was a piece of flesh, it swooped down out of the sky. She saw it and waved both hands. She uttered a great cry three times, "Shoo, shoo!" The hawk took no notice of her as she was far away. Taking the child, it flew up into the sky. Her son who was standing on the near bank, seeing both her hands being waved and hearing the great cry she uttered, thought, "She is talking to me." And suddenly fell into the water. Thus, the younger son was killed by the hawk and the elder son by the water. Saa "eko me putto senena gahito, eko udakena vuu.lho, panthe me pati mato"ti rodantii paridevantii gacchantii saavatthito aagacchanta.m eka.m purisa.m disvaa pucchi- "kattha vaasikosi, taataa"ti? "Saavatthivaasikomhi, ammaa"ti. "Saavatthiya.m asukaviithiya.m asukakula.m naama atthi, ta.m jaanaasi, taataa"ti? "Jaanaami, amma, ta.m pana maa pucchi, a~n~na.m pucchaa"ti. "A~n~nena me payojana.m natthi, tadeva pucchaami, taataa"ti. "Amma, tva.m attano anaacikkhitu.m na desi, ajja te sabbaratti.m devo vassanto di.t.tho"ti? "Di.t.tho me, taata, mayhameva so sabbaratti.m vu.t.tho, ta.m kaara.na.m pacchaa kathessaami, etasmi.m taava me se.t.thigehe pavatti.m kathehii"ti. "Amma, ajja rattiya.m se.t.thi ca bhariyaa ca se.t.thiputto caati tayopi jane avattharamaana.m geha.m pati, te ekacitakaaya.m jhaayanti, svaaya.m dhuumo pa~n~naayati, ammaa"ti. She cried out and lamented, "One of my sons was taken by a hawk; one was carried away by the water! My husband is dead along the road!" Going along, she saw a man coming from Saavatthi. She asked him, "Sir, where do you live?" "I live in Saavatthi, madam," he replied. "There is a certain family who is in a certain street. Do you know them, sir?" she asked. "I do know them, madam," he said. "But don't ask me about them. Ask about someone else." "No one else is my concern," she said. "I am only asking about them, sir." "Madam, did you not notice yourself?" he asked. "Did you see that it rained all last night?" "I saw, sir," she said. "I spent all night in it. I will explain that matter later. Now tell me the news in that wealthy merchant's house." "Madam," he said, "last night the house fell over and overwhelmed three people there - the merchant, the wife, and the merchant's son. They are burning now on a single funeral pyre. The smoke can be seen now, madam." === connie #69939 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (22) jonoabb Hi Han (and All) han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I also thank you very much for highlighting the Velaama Sutta. > It is very interesting to note the ascending order of merits obtained. > > (1) offerings to stream-enterer > (2) offerings to once-returner > (3) offerings to non-returner > (4) offerings to arahant > (5) offerings to Paccekabuddha > (6) offerings to Sammasambuddha > (7) offerings to Buddha and the Sangha > (8) construction of a monastery > (9) taking refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha > (10) abiding by the Five Precepts > (11) the cultivation of metta > (12) the insight into impermanence. > Thanks for setting this out. One can see clearly the 3-fold classification of kusala mentioned in the suttas: 1. Dana (items 1 - 8) 2. Sila (items 9 and 10) 3. Bhavana, namely (a) Samatha bhavana (item 11) (b) Vipassana bhavana (item 12) For those interested, the Velaama Sutta is included in Bhikkhu Bodhi's latest anthology ('In the Buddha's Words') at p. 178, where he gives it the title 'Insight Surpasses All'. Jon #69940 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana scottduncan2 Dear Sobhana, Scott: Kusala, I think, is kusala no matter whether it arises in one who knows Dhamma or in one who does not. A moment of consciousness which is kusala is so because of its roots. Take AN VI,39 for example: "There are three causes for the origination of actions. Greed is a cause for the origination of actions. Hatred is a cause for the origination of actions. Delusion is a cause for the origination of actions. "It is not non-greed, O monks, that arises from greed; it is rather greed that arises again from greed. It is not non-hatred that arises from hatred; it is rather hatred that arises again from hatred. It is not non-delusion that arises from delusion; it is rather delusion that arises again from delusion... "There are three other causes for the origination of actions. Non-greed...non-hatred...non-delusion... "It is not greed, O monks, that arises from non-greed; rather it is non-greed that arises again from non-greed...non-hatred that arises again from non-hatred...non-delusion that arises again from non-delusion... "It is not through actions born of non-greed, non-hatred, and non-delusion that there is the appearance of beings of the hells, of the animal realm, of the sphere of ghosts or any others of a bad destination; it is rather devas, humans, or any other creatures belonging to a good destination that appear through action born of non-greed, non-hatred and non-delusion." The six roots discussed here are dosa, lobha, moha, adosa, alobha, and amoha. These are mental factors. They can arise conascently with citta. They are roots. When these roots do arise they condition actions in thought, word, and deed. Sobhana: "Truthfully, I'm still not a 100% clear on anatta yet..." Scott: I understand it that the wholesome mental factors which condition wholesome deeds, while being conditioned, do not arise simply because one wishes them to. This is a function of anatta, in my opinion. Sobhana: "I see many christian nuns do lots of good deeds, take for example Mother Theresa who helped the orphans in India. Since she is a christian, she might not know about 'anatta'. The good deeds that she has done in her life, I suppose were performed with a belief in self and therefore 'those good deeds have Akusala roots'?" Scott: How are we to know this? I don't think we can. The appearance of goodness on the outside cannot demonstrate to outside observers what the root of the action was. This we cannot know. It does no good, I think, when considering wholesomeness and the deeds it produces, to consider historical figures and the good things they were supposed to have done. I think that this is entirely beside the point. Why? Because we can't know the roots of their deeds. I make an assumption about Mother Theresa, for example, that she was indeed a very compassionate woman, but I don't know the nature of the consciousness that lead to her actions. Can we know our own consciousness? Can we know, for example, whether our desire to give is rooted in lobha or alobha? Do we misunderstand our own actions? I think it is likely, at least I can see for me, that it is so much of the time. Wanting to be a good person, wanting to do good deeds - in what are these desires rooted? And is this enough? Sobhana: "Must all good deeds be carried out with the knowledge/understanding of 'anatta' before it become a 'valid' kusala deed? What happens to non-Buddhists who are kind, compassionate, I mean truly kind and compassionate because they think they are doing god's work? Is their effort wasted because they have wrong-view?" Scott: I think the above-cited sutta answers the question regarding the destination of anyone whose deeds are performed by kusala-citta. Right view knows that there is no doer of deeds. The ongoing problem is the thinking in terms of 'someone' who can choose to perform good deeds, and the desire to be and appear to be such a person. People don't like to let go of this notion. Sincerely, Scott. #69941 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (25) jonoabb Hi James (and Howard) buddhatrue wrote: > Exactly. I think that this entire ruckus over the word "meditation" > is really unnecessary. Actually, my heart-felt opinion is that it is > just pretentious. > > "Bhavana" is usually translated as "meditation". But then there are > those "purists" who don't like that word because it is used in so > many non-Buddhist settings (Oh, horror of horrors!), so they prefer > to translate bhavana as mental development. Hmmm…how is "mental > development" any clearer than "meditation"? Answer: it isn't- but at > least no one else uses "mental development"! Again, the motivation > for avoiding the use of the word "meditation" is just pretentious > elitism. > My own reservation about the use of 'meditation' as a translation of the Pali term 'bhavana' is that it carries connotations that the Pali doesn't. I prefer the simpler 'development' which is much closer to the literal 'producing' or 'make become' (which I've also seen as a literal translation of 'bhavana'). Etymologically, there seems to be no connection between 'meditation' and 'bhavana'. > Take for example this quote: > > • bhâvanâ > 'mental development' (lit. 'calling into existence, producing') is > what in English is generally but rather vaguely called 'meditation'. > http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/b_f/bhaavanaa.htm > > Oh yes, because it is `generally' called meditation, so that makes > it `vague"--- again, just a pretentious attitude! "Mental > Development" is just as vague as "Meditation", as far as words go. > > Actually, bhavana is supposed to be seen as a vague word. In the > Pali Canon it is combined with other words in order to be more > specific: > Metta-bhavana > Samatha-bhavana > Vipassana-bhavana > > Now, these pretentious scholars have no problems with these phrases, > but if you suggest: > Metta meditation > Samatha meditation > Vipassana meditation > > Suddenly, the phraseology is just too "vague" so they won't accept > it. Utter nonsense. > Do you see any problem with 'development' in the contexts you mention above? (Pretentiously yours...) Jon #69942 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (20) jonoabb Dear Ven Dhammanando Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Hi Jon, > > >> I have a question, please. I think I recognise the Pali terms >> 'ahuneyyo' and 'dakkhineyyo' from the recollection of the virtues of >> the Sangha. Is the author saying that these terms were also part of >> the lexicon of sacrificial practices? Do we know what their >> significance was in that context? >> > > We know the relevant textual sources, but I think one would need to be > a brahmin, or at least to undertake a thorough study of brahminical > lore, to understand their significance. Certainly it all goes over my > head. In Sanskrit the three fires are called gaarhapati agni, > aahavaniiya agni, and dak.si.na agni, which are the names of the three > kinds of sacrificial fire (or fire altar) mentioned often in the Vedas, > Upani.sads, Puraa.nas etc., cleverly adapted by the Buddha to fit his > own message. I don't have access to the Vedas themselves, but here's a > typical example from one of the post-Buddhist Upani.sads: > Many thanks for going to the trouble to find this material. It answers my query nicely. I think a certain amount of background information such as this helps in one's reading of the suttas. > "The gaarhapatya fire altar with five bricks is the year. And its five > bricks are spring, summer, rainy season, autumn, winter; ... > > ... And because the digestive fire also is a > compound of the Pavamaana, Paavaka, and Suci, therefore that fire is to > receive oblations, is to be laid with bricks, is to be praised, and to > be meditated on." > (Maitraaya.na Braahma.na Upani.sad VI 33-4) > > Well that all seems nice and clear. :-) > It's as much as we need to know, anyway ;-)) Respectfully Jon #69943 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (20) jonoabb Dear Han Thanks for the comprehensive answer, and my apologies for the delay in responding (I've been very busy with work these past 2 weeks or so). han tun wrote: > Dear Jon, > > The author had referred to AN 7.47 Dutiya Aggi sutta. I do not have English translation > of the sutta. The Buddha said that by animal sacrifice a person is establishing three > akusala weapons. Before actual killing, by thinking about the animal sacrifice he is > establishing mano-sattham (sattha = weapon). When he asks someone to kill he is > establishing vaci-sattham. If he himself kills the animals he is establishing > kaaya-sattham. So one should not practice animal sacrifice. > > Next, one should also not build up three fires, namely raagaggi (lust fire), dosaggi > (hatred fire), and mohaggi (delusion fire). > > But one should tend with care and honor three types of fires, namely aahuneyyaggi, > gahapataggi and dakkhineyyaggi. The explanation of these three Pali words is already > given. > > Here, I would not consider the three Pali words (aahuneyyaggi, gahapataggi and > dakkhineyyaggi) as “sacrificial terminology.” The word “fire” is used in a positive and > wholesome analogy. They do not denote sacrificial practices like animal sacrifice. They > are the wholesome ‘fires’ that are to be tended with care and honor. > > Please let me know if my explanation is not clear. > Very clear, thanks, and I agree with you. The sacrificial connotations are purely when used in a non-Dhamma context. It was, as we know, one of the great skills of the Buddha to take terminology from one school of thought or field of knowledge and give it meaning within the context of the Dhamma. There are probably more instances of this kind of thing in the suttas than we would imagine (I wonder if anyone has ever collected them together). Jon #69944 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] indifferent feelings jonoabb Hi Alan Alan McAllister wrote: > I hope to get some clarification on the issue of the link between > feelings and greed, hatred, and delusion. > > I see how positive feelings (pleasant) lead to desire and greed and > negative feelings (unpleasant) lead to aversion and hatred, but I > don't understand the connection between indifferent feelings and > ignorance/delusion. Perhaps you could clarify this point. > The feelings you mention here are those that accompany the kind of consciousness described. In other words: - Consciousness rooted in desire is accompanied by either pleasant or neutral (indifferent) feeling - Consciousness rooted in aversion is accompanied by unpleasant feeling - Consciousness rooted in ignorance is accompanied by indifferent (neutral) feeling. There is no connection in terms of the feeling leading to the mental state, although it may well be that we are also inclined to be attached to pleasant feeling and averse to unpleasant feeling. > Also, > greed and hatred take many forms as emotions, but what are the > emotional forms that ignorance/delusion take? > Greed and hatred are mental factors, and what we take for emotions are also mental factors. Hope this helps. Jon #69945 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: All about formless planes jonoabb Hi Kel kelvin_lwin wrote: > Hi Sarah and Jon, > > The key is already in what you wrote. ... > > It can arise which doesn't mean it will. It was only confusing > because we're using cittas in the discussion. It's clear that the > whole sotapatti magga-appana vithi cannot occur in arupa realms. > Sotapatti phala-samapatti vithi can occur and phala-cittas we were > talking about would be the ones from this vithi only. We can quibble > about the requirements to be able to obtain this fruition but we're > only talking about the potential for arising anyway. So it's clear > what can and cannot arise in arupa realms. > Thanks for clarifying. That solves the point. > - Kel > > ps. I'm busy with retreats and will go again on 21st before heading > to asia for all of april. Don't mind my hit and run posting which > I'm sure you dont :) > Not at all! Look forward to hearing from you from time to time. Jon #69946 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:40 am Subject: Re: Leading to stream entry dhammanando_... Hi Sarah, This is a late reply to message #60469 (Thu Jun 15, 2006) in which you discussed the phrase sotaapattiphalasacchakiriyaaya pa.tipanno ('practising for the realization of the fruition of stream-attainer') as it occurs in the Dakkhi.naavibhanga Sutta. After quoting from Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes on this phrase, you wrote: > S: It would be useful to see more detail from these commentary notes > in due course! I don't recall anyone posting any more detail, but as this very issue has just come up on E-sangha I thought I would post here my reply to a question from the Czech monk Ven. Gavesako (Jakub Bartovsky): >> Ven.G: >> "Can I ask, how does the commentary explain the 8 types of >> individuals mentioned in the Suttas, namely, "one practising for >> realizing the fruit of stream-entry", "stream-enterer" and so on? >> (These are also described as recipients of offerings, which means >> they have to be at that particular stage for more than a single >> moment.)" > Dh: > > I think phalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanna would be better translated as > "one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit..." > (~Naa.namoli's rendering), rather than "one practising for..." > > In answer to your question, a good place to start is the commentary to > the Dakkhi.naavibhanga Sutta (MN. 142); this is one of the suttas in > which these persons are described as potential recipients of > offerings. > > It should be noted that the 8 types in this Sutta do not perfectly > overlap with the "4 pairs of persons, 8 kinds of individuals" that > constitute the Noble Sangha, for the 4 pairs here are not attainer of > the path vs. attainer of the fruit, but rather, one who has entered > upon the way to realisation of the fruit vs. one has realised the > fruit. In the commentarial exposition, disciples in whom sotaapatti > magga has arisen are just one sub-class of persons who have entered > upon the way to realisation of sotaapatti phala. > > The phrase "one who has entered upon the way to realisation of the > fruit of stream-entry" (sotaapattiphalasacchikiriyaaya pa.tipanna) is > defined by the commentary according to the Sutta Method, and the > definition given is a rather broad and inclusive one; in this context > any worldling who has become an upaasaka by going to the three refuges > is reckoned as "one who has entered upon the way to realisation of the > fruit..." The commentator remarks that being an upaasaka with the > three refuges is the bare minimum (he.t.thimako.ti) for a person to be > counted as such; he then proceeds to list seven other types who are > progressively more worthy to be recipients of offerings: > > * one established in the five precepts; > * one established in the ten precepts; > * one who goes forth as a saama.nera (so long as the offering is given > to him on the day he goes forth); > * a bhikkhu who is dutiful (vattasampanna); > * a vipassaka (i.e. one who has developed insight up to but not > including the knowledge of rise and fall); > * an aaraddhavipassaka (one who has developed strong insight, i.e. > knowledge of rise and fall onwards); > * a maggasamangii (one possessed of the factors of the path). > > The last is the highest type and is the only one who has actually > attained sotaapatti magga. > > The commentator then asks if it is possible to give a gift to a > maggasamangii, considering that such a 'person' only exists for a > single mind-moment. He answers that it is and gives the example of an > aaraddhavipassaka bhikkhu who goes to a layman's house for almsfood, > the people there take his almsbowl from him and then emergence of the > path ( magga-vu.t.thaana) occurs in him at the same moment that they > are putting food in his bowl. There are a few other examples given, > but they are essentially the same, differing only in the manner in > which the food is given. Later, to make the difference between the two lists of eight clearer to another poster, I summarized them: > List A: the Noble Sangha: > > 1. Attainer of the path of stream-entry. (ariyan). > 2. Attainer of the fruit of stream-entry. (ariyan). > > 3. Attainer of the path of once-returning. (ariyan). > 4. Attainer of the fruit of once-returning. (ariyan). > > 5. Attainer of the path of non-returning. (ariyan). > 6. Attainer of the fruit of non-returning. (ariyan). > > 7. Attainer of the path of arahatta. (ariyan). > 8. Attainer of the fruit of arahatta. (ariyan). > > > List B: Eight persons worthy of gifts: > > 1. One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of > stream-entry. (might be an ariyan or puthujjana. If he's an ariyan > then he will be the same as person 1 in List A). > 2. Stream-entrant. (ariyan = person 2 in List A). > > 3. One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of > once-returning. (ariyan). > 4. Once-returner. (ariyan). > > 5. One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of > non-returning. (ariyan). > 6. Non-returner. (ariyan). > > 7. One who has entered upon the way to the realization of the fruit of > arahatta. (ariyan). > 8. Arahant. (ariyan). And in another later post I added the qualification that though the above is the case with the Dakkhi.naavibhanga Sutta, there are other suttas in which person 1 in List A refers *only* to the maggasamangii / attainer of the path of stream-entry, and so in these suttas the list consists entirely of ariyans. Best wishes, Dhammanando #69947 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable jonoabb Hi Larry Larry wrote: > Hi Scott, > > This is a little misleading because "intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable" is conventional > in the sense that it is what most mature responsible worldly people (merchants, lawyers, > etc.) consider to be agreeable and disagreeable, e.g., fame, wealth, beauty, health or their > opposites. > I've never seen this said. Are you quoting from something here? > I think this indicates that conventionality is the foundation of the ultimate > reality of kamma. > An interesting perspective ;-)). I'd like to discuss further when I've seen the material you based your initial premise on. Jon #69948 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:39 am Subject: Rupas Ch 4, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, When sound appears correct understanding of this reality can be developed. It can be known as a kind of rúpa and it does not matter what kind of sound it is. We are infatuated with pleasant sense objects and disturbed by unpleasant ones. Like and dislike are realities of daily life and they can be objects of awareness. We often find reasons why we cannot be mindful of the present moment. We would like to hear only pleasant things. When someone speaks unpleasant words to us we are inclined to think about it for a long time instead of being mindful of realities. We may forget that the moment of hearing is vipåkacitta, result produced by kamma. Nobody can change vipåka. Hearing falls away immediately. When we think with aversion about the meaning of the words that were spoken we accumulate unwholesomeness. We read in the “Greater Discourse of the Elephant’s Footprint” (Middle Length Sayings I, 28) that Såriputta spoke to the monks about the elements that are conditioned, impermanent and devoid of self. He also spoke about the hearing of unpleasant words: ... Your reverences, if others abuse, revile, annoy, vex this monk, he comprehends: “This painful feeling that has arisen in me is born of sensory impingement on the ear, it has a cause, not no cause. What is the cause? Sensory impingement is the cause.” He sees that sensory impingement is impermanent, he sees that feeling... perception... the habitual tendencies (saòkhårakkhandha) are impermanent, he sees that consciousness is impermanent 3 . His mind rejoices, is pleased, composed, and is set on the objects of the element. If, your reverences, others comport themselves in undesirable, disagreeable, unpleasant ways towards that monk, and he receives blows from their hands and from clods of earth and from sticks and weapons, he comprehends thus: “This body is such that blows from hands affect it and blows from clods of earth affect it and blows from sticks affect it and blows from weapons affect it. But this was said by the Lord in the Parable of the Saw: ‘If, monks, low-down thieves should carve you limb from limb with a two-handled saw, whoever sets his heart at enmity, he, for this reason, is not a doer of my teaching.’ Unsluggish energy shall come to be stirred up by me, unmuddled mindfulness set up, the body tranquillised, impassible, the mind composed and onepointed. Now, willingly, let blows from hands affect this body, let blows from clods of earth... from sticks... from weapons affect it, for this teaching of the Awakened Ones is being done.” Do we see our experiences as elements to such a degree already that, when we hear unpleasant words, we can immediately realize: “This painful feeling that has arisen in me is born of sensory impingement on the ear”? In order to see realities as they are it is necessary to develop understanding of nåma and rúpa. ****** Nina. #69949 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:43 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, “Should we hate our akusala? It is just a reality, it arises”, Khun Sujin reminded Sarah and Jonothan while they were in Bangkok. They recorded their conversations with Khun Sujin and I shall give an account of the contents of these tapes. Khun Sujin explained that she does not think that she should get rid of all defilements now. She remarked: “I do not think, ‘defilements are so ugly’, they are just realities. There should be understanding of them. People want to get rid of all defilements but they do not have any understanding of them. Why should our first objective not be right understanding? I do not understand why people are so much irritated by their defilements. One is drawn to the idea of self all the time, while one thinks about it whether one has less defilements or more. There is no understanding but merely thinking of kusala and akusala as ‘ours’. So long as there is ignorance there must be different degrees of akusala. We should just develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment of developing understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about the amount of one’s defilements, wondering about it how many defilements one has or whether they are decreasing. Just be aware instantly!” We may not notice that we think of kusala and akusala as “ours”, but the idea is there, deep in our mind. Khun Sujin’s reminders can help us to consider more thoroughly what motivates our actions, speech and thoughts. Is it not mostly clinging to ourselves? Sarah remarked that when she reflects on lobha she has dosa and that this “spoils the fun”. Khun Sujin answered: “That is only reflection, not the understanding of the characteristic which is not self. Who could change the characteristic of attachment. Understanding should be developed in a natural way. This is a relief. Even if lobha arises again, we should realize it as only a reality. You can understand the characteristic of lobha we talk about a great deal. It’s nature is non-self. This way of developing understanding is the most effective way. Then there is no attachment or aversion towards the object which appears. You should not stop pleasure, it is not ‘you’.” ******* Nina #69950 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - I agree that clear and direct understanding of defilements, as for all phenomena, is the key. However, clarity of understanding needs to be cultivated. Also, the defilements are, in fact, exactly that: defilements, and to be uprooted, and this requires action. On the way to uprooting defilements, kusala states are to be encouraged and akusala discouraged. What, after all, are the four right efforts all about? The definition is as follows: "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."— SN 45.8 To say “Should we hate our akusala? It is just a reality, it arisesâ€? sounds very "Zen" ;-), but even the most "Zen" of Zen masters will say that nothing comes from nothing. The Buddha did not recommend passivity with regard to kusala and akusala states, but proactiveness. The material "We should just develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment of developing understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about the amount of one’s defilements, wondering about it how many defilements one has or whether they are decreasing. Just be aware instantly!" is rather amusing to me, especially the last sentence! Just do it, huh? It reminds me of Nancy Reagan's answer to drug addiction, "Just say no!" The difficulty in just being aware "instantly" of the defilements is exactly the defilements, themselves!! They need to be weak ened in order to be clearly aware of them, and that weakening is accomplished by the four right efforts, by sila bhavana in general, and by meditative bhavana. Nothing comes from nothing, and that includes cultivation of mindfulness and insight. With metta, Howard #69951 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:19 am Subject: Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Thanks for your reply. I'm just considering this for the first time so... L: "This is a little misleading because "intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable" is conventional in the sense that it is what most mature responsible worldly people (merchants, lawyers, etc.) consider to be agreeable and disagreeable, e.g., fame, wealth, beauty, health or their opposites...." Scott: Here's a bit more from the Dispeller: "39. '... These same visible data (ruupa), Majesty, are pleasing to one and they are unpleasing to another; ... these same sounds ... odours ...flavours ... tangible data, Majesty, are pleasing to one and they are unpleasing to another.' (S i 80) Thus, because one enjoys and delights in these visible data and arouses greed for them, while the other is annoyed and vexed by them and arouses hate for them ... For the border dwellers worms are agreeable and desired and pleasing, while to the dwellers in the middle country they are extremely disgusting..." Scott: This differs somewhat, I think, from the example you provide but may reflect the same gist: these differences are conventional, as you say. In the Dispeller, the point is made, I think, that ultimate distinctions are made in conformity with Dhamma, that is, that which is agreeable or disagreeable is defined by Dhamma. See below: "40. ... 'Do you say that there is no distinquishing an object as intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable? ... Is nibbaana agreeable or disagreeable? If he knows he will say: 'Agreeable.' ... But nibbaana is entirely agreeable. Is this not [the case] that one who becomes angry when praises of nibbaana are being spoken asks: 'You speak the praises of nibbaana. Are there the five cords of sense-desire there, which are satisfied with food and drink, garlands, perfumes, unguents, couches and clothing?''? And when it is replied: 'There are not', [saying] 'Enough of your nibbaana!' he becomes angry when the praises of nibbaana are spoken and stops both his ears ... for that man speaks out of perverted perception. And it is through perversion (vipallaasa) of perception that that same object is agreeable to one and disagreeable to for another..." Given that nibbaana is taught by a Buddha, is Dhamma, and is said to be agreeable, the only way to see this, I think, is that Dhamma defines agreeable. I think you are saying the same thing: It doesn't matter what the lawyers or merchants think is agreeable or disagreeable (no offense to lawyers and merchants intended). L: "I think this indicates that conventionality is the foundation of the ultimate reality of kamma. For example, in some cultures being fat is agreeable while in other cultures being fat is disagreeable. Also I think we could say that a kusala impulsion with an akusala vipaka citta object is never a perversion of perception. Liking an agreeable object is still akusala and hence accompanied by ignorance and no doubt sa~n~naa vipallasa." Scott: I'm not sure what you mean above entirely but I think I understand the point regarding the 'kusala impulsion with an akusala vipaaka,' that makes sense. L: "However, as a side issue, I think this line of reasoning supports the idea that 5-door consciousness is a reflection of its object. In other words, what we experientially know as light is consciousness. In abhidhamma 5-door consciousness is resultant (vipaka). It is not a rupa. But what we are labeling as agreeable is a rupa. What we _should_ label as agreeable is the resultant consciousness. Therefore it makes sense that the consciousness is a reflection of the rupa, a proxy in a different medium. Living in a house with a beautiful view is not agreeable if you are blind." Scott: The text later discusses how one and the same object can be agreeable through one doorway while disagreeable through another. And yeah, it was vipaaka-citta I was considering when I read this. Citta would have to be conditioned specially in order to know whether the particular vipaaka-citta is agreeable or disagreeable - to distinguish between vipaaka and impulsion. Sincerely, Scott. #69952 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Larry > > Larry wrote: > > Hi Scott, > > > > This is a little misleading because "intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable" is conventional > > in the sense that it is what most mature responsible worldly people (merchants, lawyers, > > etc.) consider to be agreeable and disagreeable, e.g., fame, wealth, beauty, health or their > > opposites. > > > I've never seen this said. Are you quoting from something here? > > > I think this indicates that conventionality is the foundation of the ultimate > > reality of kamma. > > > > An interesting perspective ;-)). I'd like to discuss further when I've > seen the material you based your initial premise on. > > Jon > Hi Jon, See page 172, CMA: "The Sammohavinodanii states that the distinction between the intrinsically desirale and undesirable obtains by way of the average man (majjhima-satta): "It is distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one time and undesirable at another time by average (men such as) accountants, government officials, burgesses, land owners and merchants." " The idea that kamma is supported by conventional views is further supported by the doctrine that once arahantship is attained and ultimate reality is completely penetrated, no more kamma is generated. Larry #69953 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:28 am Subject: Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, S: "Citta would have to be conditioned specially in order to know whether the particular vipaaka-citta is agreeable or disagreeable - to distinguish between vipaaka and impulsion." L: I think this determination is just a general consensus valuation made apart from whether one likes it or not. The idea is to show that good deeds are rewarded and bad deeds are punished, wealth is a reward, poverty is punishment *in general*. If you like poverty or dislike wealth the perversion of perception is in complicating or rejecting the notion of reward and punishment. But either like or dislike is linked to a perversion of perception on another level, regardless of what is agreeable and disagreeable. Larry #69954 From: "Alan McAllister" Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:29 am Subject: indifferent feelings drampsych Thanks to Nina and Jonathan for replying to my query concerning indifferent feelings. I am afraid I am still quite muddled about the technicalities here, and I ask for your patience. I have some follow- up questions: In terms of dependent origination (or at least the way in which it is usually stated), craving arises from (depends on) feeling. However, Jonathan, when you say that there is "no connection in terms of the feeling leading to the mental state," you seem to contradict this. I am sure the idea that craving arises from feeling is much too simplistic, but surely there is a connection. I would really like to understand the way in which feeling and unwholesome cittas are connected. Nina, you mention desirable and undesirable objects. These qualities are surely not inherent to the objects. Are these qualities the result of my past history with these objects, so that they appear as desirable or undesirable to me? In other words, if I like spicy food, then a bowl of hot chili is a desirable object. But if I detest spicy food, then it is not. This seems to touch on another thread of discussion, that between Scott and Larry about agreeable and disagreeable objects. What Larry said made sense to me: "But what we are labeling as agreeable is a rupa. What we _should_ label as agreeable is the resultant consciousness. Therefore it makes sense that the consciousness is a reflection of the rupa, a proxy in a different medium." Nina, is it correct to say, in the process of knowing an object, vipaakacittas (resultant kamma consciousness?) arise and experience a pleasant or unpleasant object, which is really a feeling associated with the object based on past history with that object? Nina, you go on to say that after the vipaakacittas, javanacittas arise and (then?) kusala cittas or akusala cittas react to the object depending on yoniso manaaskiaara (thorough attention?) or ayoniso manaasikaara. It looks like these javanacittas are the critical point in the process. Do the wholesome cittas necessarily arise if we have yoniso manaaskiaara? Is yoniso manaaskiaara a synonym for sati or something (more or less) else? This suggests to me that if the object is really a proxy for a feeling then the feelings associated with the object (i.e., our feelings of pleasure, displeasure or indifference) are determined by past kamma (over which we have no control in the present). Then, is it the quality of our attention in the present (yoniso or ayoniso manaaskiaara) that determines whether wholesome or unwholesome consciousness arises? Presumably, yonios manaaskiaara is associated with the wholesome roots and ayoniso manaaskiaara is associated with the unwholesome roots. But how? I hope that I am not being presumptuous in asking you to help me sort out my confusions. Alan #69955 From: Sobhana Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hi Scott, Howard, Thank you for your nice replies. :) :namaste: Warm regards, Sobhana #69956 From: Sobhana Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hello James, Scott, all, I have one more question. We cannot control dhamma because it is anatta. Therefore, kamma (intention) also cannot be controlled. If akusala intention appears, akusala actions will be performed, because it cannot be controlled. But as we all know, kamma will produce vipaka. Akusala kamma will produce akusala vipaka. And this akusala vipaka will be experienced by the 5 khandhas. So, how do we justify this concept of reaping the result of something that is sown, without our control? You know what I mean? If someone do something unwholesome, it is because the akusala root produces that akusala action, and this akusala action will produce akusala kamma, which will produce akusala vipaka. So why do 'the 5 khandhas' have to reap the result / fruit of something which was beyond their control anyway? Reaping the akusala vipaka, let's say in this life someone has contracted an illness which is very painful, the 5 khandhas will feel the pain, don't tell me it is not painful, don't say it is anatta and therefore no pain. A puthujjana will still feel that pain. So how is kamma and vipaka explained or justified by the anatta and no-control dhamma? Looking forward to right-view. Thank you. Regards, Sobhana #69957 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:20 pm Subject: Another glitch... sarahprocter... All, Seems to be another glitch in accessing DSG and in DSG mail coming through to in-boxes. Pls continue posting as usual (if you can) and hopefully it'll clear itself soon. Sarah (& Jon) =============== #69958 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 1:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Another glitch... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - This came through, Sarah - so must be ok now. With metta, Howard #69959 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:29 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (25) buddhatrue Hi Jon, This seems to be a favorite topic of yours (?). I can recall discussing it with you on more than one occasion. Jon: My own reservation about the use of 'meditation' as a translation of the Pali term 'bhavana' is that it carries connotations that the Pali doesn't. James: What sort of connotations are you concerned about? Of course the Pali "bhavana" doesn't have any connotations to the English speaker, it is a foreign word. What we must carefully consider is whether the translation of "bhavana" into "meditation" is seriously misleading to the English reader, based on how "bhavana" is used in the texts. Believe me, I am a stickler when it comes to using the right words, so I would have no problem dropping "meditation" as the translation of "bhavana" if I was presented compelling evidence or reasoning to do so. However, I no one has presented any such thing (including this post). It seems to come down to a matter of personal preference. Jon: I prefer the simpler 'development' which is much closer to the literal 'producing' or 'make become' (which I've also seen as a literal translation of 'bhavana'). James: The word "development" isn't a simple word. It has many meanings, both denotative and connotative: development noun 1. act of improving by expanding or enlarging or refining; "he congratulated them on their development of a plan to meet the emergency"; "they funded research and development" 2. a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage (especially a more advanced or mature stage); "the development of his ideas took many years"; "the evolution of Greek civilization"; "the slow development of her skill as a writer" [ant: degeneration] 3. a recent event that has some relevance for the present situation; "recent developments in Iraq"; "what a revolting development!" 4. the act of making some area of land or water more profitable or productive or useful; "the development of Alaskan resources"; "the exploitation of copper deposits" [syn: exploitation] 5. a district that has been developed to serve some purpose; "such land is practical for small park developments" 6. a state in which things are improving; the result of developing (as in the early part of a game of chess); "after he saw the latest development he changed his mind and became a supporter"; "in chess your should take care of your development before moving your queen" 7. (biology) the process of an individual organism growing organically; a purely biological unfolding of events involved in an organism changing gradually from a simple to a more complex level; "he proposed an indicator of osseous development in children" [syn: growth] [ant: nondevelopment] 8. processing a photosensitive material in order to make an image visible; "the development and printing of his pictures took only two hours" 9. (music) the section of a composition or movement (especially in sonata form) where the major musical themes are developed and elaborated James: I don't really see how the word "development" could be considered a simple word with clear denotative or connotative definitions. Here is the definition of "meditation" (from the same source): meditation noun 1. continuous and profound contemplation or musing on a subject or series of subjects of a deep or abstruse nature; "the habit of meditation is the basis for all real knowledge" 2. (religion) contemplation of spiritual matters (usually on religious or philosophical subjects) http://dictionary.reference.com/ James: Again, this word isn't that terribly clear either; although, it seems to have fewer definitions. Jon: Etymologically, there seems to be no connection between 'meditation' and 'bhavana'. James: Well, this statement seems to be very impressive, but I don't think you have the expertise to back it up. Are you an etymologist with extensive knowledge in Pali etymology and English etymology? As far as I know, you are a business lawyer. But maybe you have studied the findings of such etymologists? If so, then present their findings here; I would be quite interested, and would be willing to change my viewpoint. I don't cling to words. Jon: Do you see any problem with 'development' in the contexts you mention above? James: No, I don't see any problem with using the word "development" either. As I stated, they are both equally vague. Let's take a look: Metta Development Samatha Development Vipassana Development OR Metta Meditation Samatha Meditation Vipassana Meditation Yeah, they both seem equally vague to me. "Development" has a somewhat more secular connotation (like building something) than "Meditation" which has a somewhat more spiritual connotation (like contemplating some deep subject), but they are still both vague. I would have to study the Buddha's teachings to know what these words really meant. Metta, James #69960 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:52 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Nina and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > "I do not think, `defilements are so ugly', they are just realities. > There should be understanding of them. People want to get rid of all > defilements but they do not have any understanding of them. Why > should our first objective not be right understanding? I do not > understand why people are so much irritated by their defilements. One > is drawn to the idea of self all the time, while one thinks about it > whether one has less defilements or more. There is no understanding > but merely thinking of kusala and akusala as `ours'. So long as there > is ignorance there must be different degrees of akusala. We should > just develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment > of developing understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about > the amount of one's defilements, wondering about it how many > defilements one has or whether they are decreasing. Just be aware > instantly!" James: This teaching of KS directly contradicts what the Buddha taught in regards to the defilements: "[6] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying? There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will... Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of cruelty... Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to destroy these things do not arise for him when he destroys them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html Metta, James #69961 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:28 pm Subject: Re: Conditions and Nibbana buddhatrue Hi Sobhana, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sobhana wrote: > > Hello James, Scott, all, > > I have one more question. > > We cannot control dhamma because it is anatta. Therefore, kamma (intention) also cannot be controlled. If akusala intention appears, akusala actions will be performed, because it cannot be controlled. The Buddha's path is a gradual path precisely because there is no self who has absolute control. For example, I cannot intend with my mind "I will become enlightened in five minutes"….and then in five minutes become enlightened. This is because the five khandas are without a self, without a controller. However, I do have control (within reason) over my actions. I have control over my bodily actions, my verbal actions, and my mental actions. Those who say they have no-control over their bodies, their speech, and their minds are certifiably insane. We do have control (within reason) over those things. As the Buddha taught: "What do you think, Rahula: What is a mirror for?" "For reflection, sir." "In the same way, Rahula, bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions are to be done with repeated reflection. "Whenever you want to do a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I want to do — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Would it be an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then any bodily action of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then any bodily action of that sort is fit for you to do. "While you are doing a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I am doing — is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it. "Having done a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities. ….the same for verbal and mental actions……" "Thus, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify my bodily actions through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal actions through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental actions through repeated reflection.' That's how you should train yourself." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html Sobhana, when considering anything about the Buddha's teaching, you should consider first the very first thing he taught. The very first thing the Buddha taught wasn't the Four Noble Truths or Anatta, the first thing the Buddha taught was the Middle Path. He taught that extremes, of all sorts, are to be avoided. The teaching of "no-control" is obviously an extreme and it should be avoided. Thanks for the question. Metta, James #69962 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta sarahprocter... Hi James (Howard, Steve, Charles D & all), --- buddhatrue wrote: >.....After some research, I found a > quote by the Buddha which indirectly states that nibbana should be > viewed as non-self (It's not done in the same manner as the other > suttas, where non-self is linked with annica and dukkha, but it does > seem to state that nibbana is non-self): > > "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding > as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not > conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of > Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in > Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has known that delight is the root > of suffering & stress, that from coming-into-being there is birth, > and that for what has come into being there is aging & death. > Therefore, with the total ending, fading away, cessation, letting go, > relinquishment of craving, the Tathagata has totally awakened to the > unexcelled right self-awakening, I tell you." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html .... S: A good example. See also this extract from an old post of Steve's: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/55454 [Charles]>I am investigating on these thing/views > 1. sabbe dhamma anatta > 2. nibbana is asankhata dhamma, > therefore it is included in the word dhamma > 3. from (1) and (2) then nibbana is anatta [Steve] >As mentioned in a previous post, within the context of the Dhammapada verse #279, the commentators state sabbe dhammaa is limited to the 5 aggregates, but in other parts of the canon the commentators include Nibbana, the asankata datu within `Sabbe Dhamma Anattaa". The Channa Sutta of the Khandhavagga of the Samyutta Nikaya has >All formations are impermanent, all phenomena are anatta. Sabbe sankhara anicca, sabbe dhamma anattaa'ti. >The commentaries state in reference to this passage: >Sabbe sankhara anicca'ti sabbe tebhumakasankhara aniccaa. Sabbe dhammaa anattaati sabbe catubhumakadhammaa anattaa. >All formations of the three planes are impermanent; all phenomena of the four planes are nonself. -- >Chapter XVIII – Planes, of the Patisambhidamagga explains the 4 Planes: >There are these fours planes: the sensual-desire sphere, the material sphere, the immaterial sphere and the unincluded sphere. >What is the unincluded plane? The unincluded paths and fruitions of the paths and the unformed principle (asankata datu): these are the unincluded plane.< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== #69963 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana sarahprocter... Hi Sobhana, --- Sobhana wrote: > I was talking to my friend's mother-in-law the other day, an old lady > in her 70s who recently passed her chaplaincy exam where she had to > study all types of religion. And now she's qualified to do grief > counseling in hospitals. She has a PhD in genetics and spent her career > looking at chromosomes under the microscope and she marvels at the > "creations" and complexities of life. And when she got to know that I'm > a Buddhist, she told me that during the first day of her chaplaincy > class, the teacher asked a question which "religion does not believe in > god", and she was surprised to learn that Buddhists don't believe in a > god. She wants to know more about Buddhism and I'm going to have a hard > time explaining no-god concept to her, wait till she hears about Anatta > and no control!! :) .... S: Let us know how your discussions with her go - sounds interesting! Thx for sharing it. Looking forward to more! Metta, Sarah ======== #69964 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > If you would like to express your concern to the editor of Access to > Insight (which I am going to do), you can e-mail John Bullitt at: > ideas@... > or > john@... .... S: Let us know if you get any response of interest! Metta, Sarah ====== #69965 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana scottduncan2 Dear Sobhana, I'll take a crack at answering, but just to study this along with you (I'm quoting someone who does know this)... S: "...We cannot control dhamma because it is anatta. Therefore, kamma (intention) also cannot be controlled. If akusala intention appears, akusala actions will be performed, because it cannot be controlled. But as we all know, kamma will produce vipaka. Akusala kamma will produce akusala vipaka. And this akusala vipaka will be experienced by the 5 khandhas. So, how do we justify this concept of reaping the result of something that is sown, without our control? You know what I mean?" Scott: No, this seems not quite on, in my opinion. Nyanatiloka (on the khandhas): "Whatever there exists of material things, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, all that belongs to the materiality group. Whatever there exists of feeling... of perception... of mental constructions... of consciousness... all that belongs to the consciousness-group..." Scott: Akusala vipaaka is part of the khandhas. No control does not in any way mean that nothing happens - whether good or ill. Dhammaa arise and fall away and all this is just continued on (and on and on and on...). Nyanatiloka: "What is called individual existence is in reality nothing but a mere process of those mental and physical phenomena, a process that since time immemorial has been going on, and that also after death will still continue for unthinkably long periods of time. These 5 groups, however, neither singly nor collectively constitute any self-dependent real ego-entity, or personality attÄ? nor is there to be found any such entity apart from them. Hence the belief in such an ego-entity or personality, as real in the ultimate sense, proves a mere illusion..." S: "If someone do something unwholesome, it is because the akusala root produces that akusala action, and this akusala action will produce akusala kamma, which will produce akusala vipaka." Scott: I think this is correct. Its just the way it is. S: "So why do 'the 5 khandhas' have to reap the result / fruit of something which was beyond their control anyway?" Scott: Okay, you're doing it again, I think. Now, at least to me, you seem to be writing 'the five khandhas' as if you were meaning 'the person' instead. The khandhas are not just another way of saying 'me'. There is not a single dhamma within the five khandhas over which anyone has any control. The khandhas don't 'reap the result', I think the result is just part of the khandhas. Again with Nyanatiloka: "Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities 'heaps', 'bundles', while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body-and-mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental constructions are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities." S: "Reaping the akusala vipaka, let's say in this life someone has contracted an illness which is very painful, the 5 khandhas will feel the pain, don't tell me it is not painful, don't say it is anatta and therefore no pain. A puthujjana will still feel that pain." Scott: Its like you are saying something like, 'Its unfair that I have to experience pain since I didn't have any control over the causes of it,' or some such. I don't think 'fairness' comes into it, its just a natural process. Nyanatiloka: "The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness. For example, with one and the same unit of consciousness only one single kind of feeling, say joy or sorrow, can be associated and never more than one. Similarly, two different perceptions cannot arise at the same moment. Also, of the various kinds of sense-cognition or consciousness, only one can be present at a time, for example, seeing, hearing or inner consciousness, etc. Of the 50 mental constructions, however, a smaller or larger number are always associated with every state of consciousness..." S: "So how is kamma and vipaka explained or justified by the anatta and no-control dhamma?" Scott: There isn't a 'no-control dhamma' that I know of. Actions arise, conditioned, and results follow, sooner or later, again conditioned. Things really happen. Lots of things. Complex things. Just look around you right now. All that you experience is it. Anatta has to be realised by pa~n~na, another impersonal dhamma, otherwise it all seems to hang together like 'you' 'looking around' 'the room'. Sorry about the lame response - that's the best I can do when its past my bedtime. Good night. Sincerely, Scott. #69966 From: Sobhana Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hi Sarah, I hope I'll meet with Penny again, that's my friend's mother-in-law's name. She lives in St.John, Nova Scotia (I think it's called St.John, there is another city called St.Johns in Canada). I'm not very familiar with the cities and places in Canada yet. I was from M'sia and I moved to Toronto, Canada about 6 years ago when I got married. :) Anyway, I met Penny when my friend invited us to dinner in a chinese restaurant a few months ago and I hope to see her again soon. I'll try to explain the 'no-god' concept first, the anatta will have to wait till later. :rolleyes: :) When Penny asked me "How do you explain to someone that there is no-god?" and she looked at me with such a perplexed look, I didn't even know how to start explaining it to her and I don't feel like getting into a debate with a 70-year old lady. (heheh). Anyway, luckily it was towards the end of the dinner and everyone was getting ready to leave and she said she wants to talk to me again. She sounds like a religious person and her son (my friend's husband, is kinda religious too). He attends a Unitarian church, or something like that, I didn't get the details of it but anyway I know that they are religious people so no-god would probably not sit well with them. And in public, there are 3 topics which should be avoided, i.e.: sex, politics and religion. :) And I hope this no-god discussion will not make me an outsider, ummm.. Anyway, will keep ya'll informed. :) Metta, Sobhana #69967 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Wrong teaching of Thanissaro about Anatta buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > If you would like to express your concern to the editor of Access to > > Insight (which I am going to do), you can e-mail John Bullitt at: > > ideas@... > > or > > john@... > .... > S: Let us know if you get any response of interest! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > Hi Sarah, Yes, John wrote back with a very nice e-mail, but he still won't budge about Thanissaro (I will post his response and then my response): Hi James, Thanks for your note. I'm sorry to hear that you don't find Thanissaro's translations helpful. I fully understand that not everyone will like them or agree with his interpretations. This is natural. In fact, I don't know of any scholar whose interpretations of Dhamma are universally accepted as "correct". Everybody has an opinion! I like to keep in mind that the proof of these teachings is in the pudding, so to speak: take them, reflect on them, and put them into practice; it they're useful and bring you closer to the Buddhist goal, great!; if they're not, then just put them aside. Personally, I find Thanissaro's translations and teachings immensely useful, insightful, and valuable. And that's why they're on Access to Insight.. peace John *********************** Hi John, Thanks for you response. First, I really want to express my deep heart-felt appreciation to you for your web site! It is just about the most wonderful thing on the net! I'm sure that you will attain fields and fields of merit for creating and maintaining such a golden treasure! Second, I don't have any problems with the manner in which Thanissaro translates the suttas. I think his translations are fine. However, I just thought that he is presenting the Buddha's teaching of anatta in the wrong manner- in his essays and commentarial introductions. The Buddha didn't wish for the question and issue of anatta to be placed aside, he wished for it to be foremost in the mind of the practitioner. Anyway, I just thought I would make you aware of that. Of course it is your web site and you should do with it what you see fit. I am not concerned about myself in these regards, I am concerned about others. Just as you have made merit for yourself with your wonderful web site, I have made merit for myself by bringing this matter to your attention. ;-) We can consider the matter closed. Thank you again and keep up the good work! Metta, James ps. If you have the time or inclination, you can read this essay by another Bhikkhu who I feel more properly presents the teaching of anatta in relation to meditation #69968 From: Sobhana Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hi all, Oops, I think St.John is in New Brunswick and not Nova Scotia. I need to get the Canadian geography correct. :blush: Metta Sobhana #69969 From: "Ramesh Wamanrao Patil" Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:08 pm Subject: A path Leading to a Perfection!! rameshat27 The practice of moral discipline consists of abstinence from immoral actions of body and speech and positively in the observance of ethical principles promoting peace within oneself and harmony in one's relations with others. The basic code of moral discipline taught by the Buddha for the guidance of his lay followers is the five precepts: abstinence from taking life, from stealing, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, and from intoxicating drugs and drinks. These principles are bindings as minimal ethical obligations for all practitioners of the Buddhist path, and within their bounds considerable progress in meditation can be made. However, those aspiring to reach the higher levels of concentration and samatha to pursue the path further to the stages of liberation, are encouraged to take up the more complete moral discipline pertaining to the life of renunciation, by taking the 20 days or 30 days or 45 days or 60 days courses at Vippassana International Academy, Dhammagiri. Where he can test his ability to sit for meditation and check his patience how many days he can live in this 30 or 40 or 60 renounce days. But before that more profound and deep study of Vinaya Pitika and Sutta Pitika should be acknowledged by heart and faith. Early Buddhism is unambiguous in its emphasis on the limitations of household life for following the path in its fullness and perfection. Time arose again, in India, for a noble disciple who is fully intent upon making rapid progress towards Nibbána, for such noble disciples, all the facilities are there in International Academy Igatpuri! For styding Tripitika and full dhamma Study following links are very usefull:- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/index.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ With Metta Ramesh Patil Mumbai, India #69970 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha sarahprocter... Hi Connie & all, --- connie wrote: > Dear Friends, > the last installment from www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3606.htm : <...> > 'Well has this puzzle, Naagasena, been unravelled, well has the net of > heresy been torn to pieces, well has the argument of the adversaries > been > overcome and your own doctrine been made evident, well has the letter > (of > the Scriptures) been maintained while you have thus explained its > spirit! > That is so, and I accept it as you say.' > > [Here ends the dilemma as to Vessantara's gift of his wife and > children.] .... S: At least King Milinda was satisfied! Many thanks for running this sub-Daana corner (and putting yourself in the firing line in the process:-)). As the Dict of Pali Proper Name says: "The story also occurs in the Cariyāpitaka (i.9), and is often referred to (E.g., Sp.i.245; VbhA.414; Cv.xlii.5; c.74) as that of a birth in which the Bodhisatta's dāna pāramitā reached its culmination. The earth shook seven times when Vessantara made his gifts, and this forms the subject of a dilemma in the Milinda-Pañha. (Mil. p.113; for another question, see ibid. 274f). The story of the Jātaka was sculptured in the Relic Chamber of the Mahā Thūpa. (Mhv.xxx.88). The story of Vessantara is the first of the Jātakas to disappear from the world (AA.i.51). See also Gūlha Vessantara." .... S: The Cariyapitaka is part of the Khuddaka Nikaya. The other Milinda question referred to would be 'The Causes of Earthquakes' (I presume). This is in Dilemmas 1, First Division 4. It's actually very interesting if you'd care to continue leading the sub-corner. I don't think it's difficult to see why the Vessantara Jataka will be the first to disappear. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before a Jataka translation comes out without it! Metta, Sarah ======= #69971 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Mar 25, 2007 11:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana sarahprocter... Hi Sobhana, (Alan Mc, Ann, other Canadians, James, Han & all), --- Sobhana wrote: >I was from M'sia and I moved > to Toronto, Canada about 6 years ago when I got married. :) .... S: That's interesting. I knew you must be from a Buddhist background. How are you finding living in Toronto? There are quite a few Canadians (and Malaysians) here. Rob M is from Toronto but has lived in Malaysia mostly since his marriage! Who else? Alan Mc, glad to see you asking excellent questions again. If I remember rightly, you are also from Ontario? Bancroft? Another lurking friend, Ann M comes from Toronto too, but now lives in Vancouver. (Ann, hope you managed to get re-subscribed. If so, perhaps you could write a summary of what struck you on your recent return to Thailand and dhamma discussions there.) Also, Scott, Joel & Phil are all from Canada.....other lurking Canadians too. ... > Anyway, I met Penny when my friend invited us to dinner in a chinese > restaurant a few months ago and I hope to see her again soon. I'll try > to explain the 'no-god' concept first, the anatta will have to wait till > later. :rolleyes: :) When Penny asked me "How do you explain to someone > that there is no-god?" and she looked at me with such a perplexed look, > I didn't even know how to start explaining it to her and I don't feel > like getting into a debate with a 70-year old lady. (heheh). Anyway, > luckily it was towards the end of the dinner and everyone was getting > ready to leave and she said she wants to talk to me again. .... S: She sounds very sincerely interested. I think you will need to explain that only visible object, sound and so on can be experienced through the 5 sense doors. Through the mind-door, the thinking is real, but the ideas we have of computers, houses, people and Gods are just ideas. In truth, as you've been discussing, there is no 'person' or 'God' in control except in our imaginations. You can also ask her to explain what she means by God and how this is known. Gentle probing (rather than giving the answers) can be very helpful, I think. This way it becomes her own consideration and reflection. Does she or her son have a computer? If so, you could give them a link to DSG and encourage them to ask questions further here as well. Maybe, better to have a few discussions first. ... > She sounds like a religious person and her son (my friend's husband, > is kinda religious too). He attends a Unitarian church, or something > like that, I didn't get the details of it but anyway I know that they > are religious people so no-god would probably not sit well with them. .... S: She's obviously asking, however, because she wishes to know how you, as a Buddhist, see the world and live without the idea of a God in control. ... > And in public, there are 3 topics which should be avoided, i.e.: sex, > politics and religion. :) And I hope this no-god discussion will not > make me an outsider, ummm.. .... S: I'm sure you'll do fine. Just talk from your own viewpoint and make it clear that you appreciate they may have different understandings. Maybe better to talk to her quietly or alone rather than over a 'public' dinner:) Perhaps if you come across a simple/useful article without too much Pali, you can print it out for her too. Perhaps James, Han or someone here can think of one that would be just the thing. One of B.Bodhi's? .... > Anyway, will keep ya'll informed. :) .... S: Good ;) Metta, Sarah ======== #69972 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Citta is dark. sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Connie & all) Great quotes and beautifully presented (369763). They all relate:) A couple of brief extracts - --- Scott Duncan wrote: > This portion of a discussion, suggested by connie, also relates: > > Kh. Sujin (2001-10-23-e): > > "Even when one closes one's eyes. Because you see that people think > that reality must be quite different from the daily reality but its > not at all. Exactly the same.... **** **** > "...because its so dark - nothing - so its very frightening when its > not the developed pa~n~na. So one knows one's self whether one has > the developed level of pa~n~na or not yet to be alone, and its not > 'I', but only the element which can experience an object. No friends, > no family, no one... ***** S: Thanks also Connie and Mike for your quotes and discussion on ahosi kamma etc here which I plan to look at more carefully. Very interesting. I remember the brief comments in Benares. Just looked in Buddhadatta's dict: "Ahosi (aor. of hoti), he was - kamma, nt. an act of thought which has no longer any potential force." Hmmm....I'll look f/w to anymore that comes up. Btw, if either of you or anyone comes across anything in the recordings which is curious or questionable, do bring up the points here. Very helpful for us all to consider further. Metta, Sarah ======== #69973 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:38 am Subject: Revealing Understanding! bhikkhu5 Friends: How is the Understanding Ability Penetrating? Understanding knows more than the mere perception since this can just classify as 'blue' or 'round'... Only Understanding can dig out and penetrate into abstract characteristics of the object such as: Impermanent, Miserable and Impersonal... While perception is like a child, and thinking is like a villager, then Understanding is like an Expert, who knows far beyond both the childish perception and the naive villager-like logical thinking... Penetration into the particular individual essence significant for only that special object is the characteristic of Understanding! To eliminate the darkness of delusion & doubt by illuminating the object, as if from all sides, is the function of Understanding! Certainty, assured knowing, beyond all doubt, fully comprehending without deluded confusion is the manifestation of Understanding! The proximate cause of Understanding is Concentration, since only that quality can anchor consciousness long enough on the object so that analytical thinking can drill into it & penetrate into the core! When the object is experienced as if from inside, it is Understood! Understanding is always accompanied by clear Joy or Equanimity! Understanding prevents disadvantageous states from arising and eliminates all these detrimental states, if already arisen & present! Understanding initiates the arising of absent advantageous states, & refines, expands & perfects these good states if already arisen! There is Understanding gained by Hearing & Learning from another. There is Understanding earned by Thinking and Rational Reasoning. There is Understanding won by Development through Meditation. Who Knows? There is NOT an 'I, Me, or Person' who understands! Rather the Event of Understanding occurs exactly when the Ability of Understanding is in the State of Understanding... It is therefore Understanding itself!, that Knows, Comprehends and Understands... Source: The Path of Purification XIV 2ff: Visuddhimagga by Ariya Buddhaghosa from the 5th century AC. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #69974 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana sarahprocter... Hi Sobhana, --- sarah abbott wrote: > Hi > S: She sounds very sincerely interested. I think you will need to > explain > that only visible object, sound and so on can be experienced through the > 5 > sense doors. Through the mind-door, the thinking is real, but the ideas > we > have of computers, houses, people and Gods are just ideas. In truth, as > you've been discussing, there is no 'person' or 'God' in control except > in > our imaginations. .... S: This extract Connie posted may be helpful: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69854 (You'd have to explain what is meant by 'name-and-form', i.e. nama-rupa) Also, take a look sometime at messages saved under 'Creator' in 'Useful Posts'. Metta, Sarah ======== #69975 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:55 am Subject: indifferent feelings nilovg Dear Alan Mc, ------ Alan McAllister: Nina, you mention desirable and undesirable objects. These qualities are surely not inherent to the objects. Are these qualities the result of my past history with these objects, so that they appear as desirable or undesirable to me? In other words, if I like spicy food, then a bowl of hot chili is a desirable object. ------- N: We have to distinguish vipaakacittas that are results of kamma and javanacittas that are conditioned by our accumulated kusala and akusala inclinations. It is difficult to know whether the object experienced by vipaakacittas is i.t.thaaramma.na. desirable, or ani.t.thaaramma.na, undesirable. We cannot change kamma and it is not possible that the result of akusala kamma, thus, akusala vipaakacitta experiences a desirable object. Here the words desirable and undesirable are not meant as a subjective judgement, they merely indicate their nature of being the object of kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. But, the moments of vipaakacitta are so short, it is difficult to know the object they experience. Afterwards we can conclude about them, and in the case of the objects experienced through the bodysense we may know more easily what kind of object was experienced. The javanacittas in a process arise very soon after the vipaakacittas and then we have like and dislike, we are carried away by our feelings. --------- A: Nina, is it correct to say, in the process of knowing an object, vipaakacittas (resultant kamma consciousness?) arise and experience a pleasant or unpleasant object, which is really a feeling associated with the object based on past history with that object? ----- N: No, see above. We should distinguish kusala cittas and akusala cittas from vipaakacittas. ---------- A: Nina, you go on to say that after the vipaakacittas, javanacittas arise and (then?) kusala cittas or akusala cittas react to the object depending on yoniso manaaskiaara (thorough attention?) or ayoniso manaasikaara. It looks like these javanacittas are the critical point in the process. ------- N: Yoniso manaasikaara: wise attention. When there are conditions for kusala javanacittas there is wise attention to the object, and the opposite for unwise attention. I do not try to find out whether an object is pleasant or unpleasant, but I find it more important that there is wise attention. When kusala cittas arise there are conditions for more kusala in the future. ----------- A: Do the wholesome cittas necessarily arise if we have yoniso manaaskiaara? Is yoniso manaasikaara a synonym for sati or something (more or less) else? ------- N: Manaasikaara: manodvaaravajjanacitta (mind-door adverting consciousness) is actually called 'controller of the javanas', it precedes the javanacittas. But this is a kiriyacitta (neither kusala nor akusala nor vipaaka), only a very short moment, and we actually refer to the javanacittas as well when we speak of yoniso manaasikaara. There is also sati with the kusala javanacittas. --------- A: This suggests to me that if the object is really a proxy for a feeling then the feelings associated with the object (i.e., our feelings of pleasure, displeasure or indifference) are determined by past kamma (over which we have no control in the present). ------ N: We have to differentiate the feelings accompanying vipaakacittas and those accompanying the javanacittas. The vipaakacittas of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The vipaakacitta that is bodyconsciousness is accompanied by either pleasant or painful bodily feeling. These feelings are merely vipaaka and they are entirely different from happy feeeling and unhappy feeling accompanying javanacittas. -------- A: Then, is it the quality of our attention in the present (yoniso or ayoniso manaaskiaara) that determines whether wholesome or unwholesome consciousness arises? Presumably, yoniso manaaskiaara is associated with the wholesome roots and ayoniso manaasikaara is associated with the unwholesome roots. But how? ------- N: The kiriyacitta preceding the kusala javanacittas and the akusala javanacittas is not accompanied by hetus, but the following javanacittas are. Actually our accumulated kusala and akusala conditions the arising of the javanacittas. --------- Nina. #69976 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:57 am Subject: Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Hi Howard and James, I understand your points of view very well when you read: just be aware. I would like to explain the context more. ----------- Howard:To say “Should we hate our akusala? It is just a reality, it arises” sounds very "Zen" ;-), but even the most "Zen" of Zen masters will say that nothing comes from nothing. The Buddha did not recommend passivity with regard to kusala and akusala states, but proactiveness. The material "We should just develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment of developing understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about the amount of one’s defilements, wondering about it how many defilements one has or whether they are decreasing. Just be aware instantly!" is rather amusing to me, especially the last sentence! -------- N: Kh Sujin likes to help us to have more understanding of kusala, akusala. If we do not have any understanding of what kusala and akusala really are how could there be the four right efforts? We have learnt about anattaa, we have learnt that kusala and akusala are conditioned namas, but when they appear right now how much understanding is there? There is likely to be an underlying idea of: I myself try not to have defilements. In theory we know that effort is a type of nama, a cetasika, but is there understanding of its characteristic when it appears, right now? I think that this is difficult for all of us. ---------- H: The difficulty in just being aware "instantly" of the defilements is exactly the defilements, themselves!! They need to be weak ened in order to be clearly aware of them, and that weakening is accomplished by the four right efforts, by sila bhavana in general, and by meditative bhavana. Nothing comes from nothing, and that includes cultivation of mindfulness and insight. ------- N: I agree that nothing comes from nothing, that mindfulness and insight have to be cultivated. If one tries first to weaken defilements so that there can be awareness of them it seems to me that there is an idea of self who wants to do something else first before there can be awareness. Also subtle lobha, clinging to a result has to be detected, and it is pa~n~naa that can detect this. Pa~n~naa develops when there is listening to the right Dhamma. I think it is helpful to have more understanding of all kinds of nama and rupa that appear in daily life. Seeing and hearing are also important, it is after seeing and hearing that defilements arise on account what is seen and heard. The four right efforts are among the factors leading to enlightenment and that means that as such they are accompanied by right understanding of the eightfold Path, right understanding of nama and rupa. When we remember this all the sutta texts about them gain in meaning. I would like to quote from Kh sujin's Perfections. She speaks a great deal of right efforts, but she emphasizes the role of pa~n~naa. Right effort is a cetasika, it needs the right conditions for its arising. --------- Quotes: < Ignorance is the condition for not seeing the benefit of the Dhamma, whereas paññå is the condition for realizing its benefit. Each moment of listening to the Dhamma is beneficial. There may not always be an opportunity to apply the Dhamma, but when we have listened to it, there are conditions for kusala dhammas to develop and akusala dhammas gradually to decrease.> ------ N: Really, there is no other way leading to the growth of pa~n~naa. LIstening, considering and understanding what one hears. ------------ < Wisdom is opposed to akusala as it dispels the darkness of attachment and restores sight. As soon as we have seen something, attachment is bound to arise. When paññå is lacking, there is no opposition to lobha which is very skilful in clinging to all the sense objects. However, when paññå arises, attachment cannot arise at the same time; paññå is opposed to attachment. Only paññå can dispel the darkness of attachment. When paññå arises, it is able to understand the true nature of the reality that appears. Paññå understands kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala. As paññå develops, it will know the characteristics of realities as they are, so that the darkness of ignorance can be overcome.> < ...if someone has listened to the Dhamma and develops satipaììhåna, sati-sampajañña can arise and be aware of akusala when he is irritated or displeased. We should consider more deeply the meaning of sati-sampajañña. When akusala dhamma arises, sati-sampajañña may consider the Dhamma and realize the disadvantage of the continuation of akusala. At that moment, it may be known that it is not proper to be irritated in whatever respect, be it on account of the action or speech of someone else, or be it because we have noticed something wrong. When, for example, akusala citta with anger arises and sati- sampajaññå can be aware of its characteristic, we can see whether there is effort for giving up anger; if one continues being angry it means that akusala viriya is still strong. When kusala viriya has been further developed and awareness can arise, there are conditions for the decrease of displeasure and for mettå. Thus, instead of anger which is an impure dhamma there can immediately be a change to kusala dhamma, dhamma which is pure. When dosa arises, we have displeasure, but sati sampajañña can arise and be aware of its characteristic and then we can see the benefit of sati-sampajañña. If someone has listened to the Dhamma and is not inert but immediately gives up akusala, kusala viriya performs its function at that moment of refraining from anger. This kind of viriya is different from thinking that one should refrain from anger. It arises at the moment of sati-sampajañña, when energy or effort refrains from anger, and it is known that mettå is the opposite of anger. This is effort to forgive, effort for mettå. At such a moment we can remember that everybody, including ourselves, makes mistakes. Therefore, we should not have anger or displeasure on account of someone else or of dhammas which arise and then fall away.> (end quotes) ******** Nina. #69977 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:10 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. philofillet HI James, Nina and all Thanks for pointing this out, James. Indeed, there are many suttas in which Acharn Sujin's teaching that there is no need to think about how many defilements one has, whether they are increasing or decreasing in number, her teaching that in fact this sort of consideration is counter-productive, is revealed to be incorrect. For example, AN X, 51. One looks at oneself and asks whether one is "often" (note that word, it makes it impossible to reduce this sutta to a moment of an understanding of a dhamma) covetous, full of ill-will etc, and if one determines this is the case one rouses "unremitting" mindfulness and clear comprehension for their abandoning. In MN 5, one asks if there are blemishes in oneself, and if one finds there are, one goes after them. ("When a peson with a blemish understands as it actually is thus 'I have a blemish' it can be expected that he will arouse zeal, make effort and instigate energy to abandon that blemish, and that he will die without lust, hate and delusion, without blemish, with mind undefiled." This is not talking about understanding that arises in a moment (though Acharn Sujin's students will try to explain it in that way) this is the story of a life of a person who makes progress in wholesomeness. To take a passive approach to the defilements out of some misplaced belief that self-view will taint any diligent effort to overcome them is unwise, I think. Only a few more days of me going on and on on this point and then I'll be quiet for a good little while, I assure you. :) Metta, Phil > James: This teaching of KS directly contradicts what the Buddha taught > in regards to the defilements: > > "[6] And what are the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying? > There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, does not > tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, > dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. > > Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of > ill will... > > Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of > cruelty... > > Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful > mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & > wipes them out of existence. The fermentations, vexation, or fever > that would arise if he were not to destroy these things do not arise > for him when he destroys them. These are called the fermentations to > be abandoned by destroying." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html > > Metta, > James > #69978 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: ahosi kamma sarahprocter... Hi Connie, Mike, Larry & all, --- connie wrote: > jury still out, > connie > > Path of Purification, xix, 14: Herein, kamma is fourfold: to be > experienced here and now, to be experienced on rebirth, to be > experienced > in some subsequent becoming, and lapsed kamma.* > Of these, (i) the volition, either profitable or unprofitable, of the > first of the seven impulsion consciousnesses in a single cognitive > series > of impulsions is called kamma to be experienced here and now: it gives > its > result in this same selfhood. But if it cannot do so, it is called (iv) > > lapsed kamma (ahosi-kamma), according to the triad described thus 'There > > has been (ahosi) kamma, there has been no kamma-result, there will be no > > kamma-result' (see Ps. ii, 78). .... S: From the commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha(PTS), ch 5, 'The Process Free', 'The Explanation of Fourfold Kamma': "...[kamma] that will be experienced by virtue of experience of its result during this [existence] is [kamma] 'to be experienced here and now'. That which will arise and be experienced immediately following the here and now is [kamma] 'to be experienced subsequently'. That which will be experienced in any of the various existences other than the here and now is kamma 'to be experienced variously'. Kamma that simply has occurred (ahosi), but its results have not occurred, are not occurring, and will not occure - this is kamma that should be termed 'has-been kamma'." **** S: A little later in the same section: "However, the first two kammas, when their particular time has passed, and the third too, when the occurrence of sa"msaara has been cut off, are called 'has-been kamma'. 'By way of the occasion for their results': by way of the occasion for the first three being defined as the present, the immediately following existence and various [existences] respectively, and by way of there being no occasion for the last one's result, for it is designated 'has-been kamma' because it has overshot its occasion." **** S: I believe K.Sujin's comment/correction was that ahosi kamma just means 'past kamma'. It is past kamma that will no longer bring a result, but this is different from calling it an 'inoperative kamma' or 'kamma that cannot bring a result'. A subtle point, perhaps? Has the jury reached a consensus? Metta, Sarah ========= #69979 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:34 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner (14) philofillet Hi all I was thinking about this point. Vowing to have write speech, or studying the suttas in which right speech are described may not make it much more likely that one will have right speech. But there are suttas in which the Buddha provides intentional practices that are sure to help. In MN 61, his instructions to Rahula which I have quoted here before, he urges us to reflect before, during and after our speech (as well as actions of body and mind) as to whether what we are doing is harmful to oursleves, or others, whether it is likely to bring painful consequences. It's an extraordinary sutta in its simplicity. If one were to reflect in its light before coming to DSG, for example, it would be almost impossible to have wrong speech. If one were to reflect in its light while engaged in an argument, one would be protected. Now, how does one remember to reflect in its light. That's another matter. (A little speaker attached to my glasses, piping in this sutta constantly and my speech would be so gentle. Now of course everyone laughs at that. But I am going to see if I can rig one up.) This sutta doesn't require one to be concerned about whether dhammas are anatta or not. It requires one to look at what one is going to do, is doing and has just finished doing and make rational judgements about whether harm will be done, is being done, or has been done. It's not rocket science. It's just thoroughly applied decency. And it provdes shelter for deeper understanding to develop, if it is to develop. It won't develop without this sort of shelter. As the sutta concludes: "Rahula, whatever recluses and brahmins in the past purified their bodily action, their verbal action, and their mental action, all did so by prepeatedly reflecting thus. Whatever recluses in the present...whatever recluses in the future...Rahula, you should train thus: "We will purify our bodily action, our verbal action and our mental action by repeatedly reflecting upon them." "Repeatedly"...that's a key word. I'm sure there are other suttas that provide ways of training for less wrong speech. Metta, Phil #69980 From: "gazita2002" Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:09 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. gazita2002 hello Nina, thanks once again for the seemingly tireless energy you put into these posts. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, .....snip..... 'Who could change the characteristic of attachment.' azita; this really got my attention. its one of those 'ah ha, of course' kind of statements. No one can change the characteristic of attachment, its as impossible as finding a 'self' in the khandhas. Attachment will arise as long as there are the conditions for it to do so or until it has been finally eradicated. Yes, it is a relief to realise that all of these defilements arise and fall away because that is their nature to do so. To be reminded often as A.Sujin does, that all of this is natural and that understanding must be jsut as natural and that the path to deliverance goes along with detachment - and this detachment only comes with understanding realities as they truly are eg the characteristic of attachment cannot be changed by anyone because there is noone to change it - it is as it is!!! > Understanding should be developed in a natural way. This is a relief. > Even if lobha arises again, we should realize it as only a reality. > You can understand the characteristic of lobha we talk about a great > deal. It's nature is non-self. This way of developing understanding > is the most effective way. Then there is no attachment or aversion > towards the object which appears. You should not stop pleasure, it is > not `you'." Azita; exactly, there is no 'you, me' I love these reminders, Nina. > Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. #69981 From: "gerardblok" Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:38 am Subject: Re: indifferent feelings gerardblok Hallo Nina, You write: 'Here the words desirable and undesirable are not meant as a subjective judgement, they merely indicate their nature of being the object of kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka.' Isn't this a case of "begging the question"? You describe vipaakacitta in terms of the object, desirable and undesirable, and the object in terms of kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. Gerard #69982 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (14) sarahprocter... Hi Phil,(Nina, Sukin* & all) --- Phil wrote: > You're right, I used words that suggested "unclean." I was trying > to find a suitable metaphor for the arousing of the second right > effort, the dropping of unwholesome developments, which we must do > again and again and again countless times in a day if we are diligent > Buddhists. .... S: Yes, lots of metaphors for the removing of dirt. I recently wrote on the same thread to Colette: "Thanks for the question. The 'unclean' or rather the 'dirty' refers to the defiled mind whilst the 'clean' refers to the 'undefiled'. Of course, our minds are always changing - one moment 'clean', the next 'dirty' or 'defiled'." .... S: Then I gave a link to the 'Simile of the Cloth' and quoted from it. I'm sure it's a favourite of yours too: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.007.nypo.html ... >I say "we must do" because the suttas which inspire me in > this direction are phrased in conventional terms, and there is no > mention of insight into anatta. That comes later, as a benefit of > wholesome patterns of body, speech and mind that are proetced and > fostered by diliegence. It's not sexy in a SOWS way and therefore not > suitable for posting about or discussing, really. You do it or you > don't. .... S: Just do it, Phil - I mean post and discuss as you see fit and don't worry whether it's sexy in a SOWS or any other kind of way:-). Vent away as Nina said! It's Ok, I remember the promise you made to your brother and that the baseball is just about to start....anytime, whenever - if he and Naomi give you any leave, lol! As for there being something 'wrong' with one's approach when one gets agitated by others' wrong approaches, well.....a sense of humour helps, I find!! We're all just doing our best, trying to help each other along, lost as we are in samsara most the time. [Btw, I thought of you when I read Nina's LOV-ed 10, no 6 #69813 about sorrow , loss of sila, worry leading to wrong deeds, remorse and so on.] ... > Brushing the teeth after every meal? Sitting up straight when one > finds one is slouching? I don't know, doesn't matter. Those who know > how important it is to be unremittingly diligent about the arising of > unwholesome states do it whatever the metaphor is. .... S: Even though you don't think so, I think it is a level of panna to really see the urgency and danger of unwholesome states as you appreciate here. More diligence, more guarding, more wisdom leads to more recognition of the importance of 'sitting up straight' or 'cleaning the cloth'. Fire is on our heads.... Thx for your reflections today as well. ... Metta, Sarah *Sukin - some helpful comments, #69809 "Regarding the stress on 'anatta'. I think this allows for understanding of experiences unhindered by 'self'. Self, no matter how subtle, distorts perception even at the intellectual level. It is like a layer covering that which must be seen "as it is". S: Yes, the more clinging to self, the harder it is to really be honest and detached about even those gross unwholesome states, I find. =========== #69983 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:55 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nichiconn Dear Friends, part 4 of 11: Pa.taacaaraa Saa tasmi.m kha.ne nivatthavatthampi patamaana.m na sa~njaani. Sokummattatta.m patvaa jaataruupeneva- "Ubho puttaa kaala"nkataa, panthe mayha.m patii mato; maataa pitaa ca bhaataa ca, ekacitamhi .dayhare"ti. (Apa. therii 2.2.498)- Vilapantii paribbhamati. At that moment, she did not notice the clothing she was wearing was falling down. She went out of her mind from grief, and she roamed around naked, babbling: Both my sons are dead. My husband is dead on the road. My mother and father and brother are being burnt on a single funeral pyre. RD: Thereat grief maddened her, so that she was not aware even of her clothing slipping off. Wailing in her woe - 'My children both are gone, and in the bush Dead lies my husband; on one funeral bier My mother, father, and my brother burn,' Tato pa.t.thaaya tassaa nivaasanamattenapi pa.tena acara.nato patitaacaarattaa pa.taacaaraatveva sama~n~naa ahosi. Ta.m disvaa manussaa "gaccha, ummattike"ti keci kacavara.m matthake khipanti, a~n~ne pa.msu.m okiranti, apare le.d.du.m khipanti. Satthaa jetavane mahaaparisaamajjhe nisiiditvaa dhamma.m desento ta.m tathaa paribbhamanti.m disvaa ~naa.naparipaaka~nca oloketvaa yathaa vihaaraabhimukhii aagacchati, tathaa akaasi. From that time on, because of her not walking around (acara.nato) with a cloth (pa.tena) as large as a garment and because of her "fallen" conduct (patitaacaarattaa), her name became Pa.taacaaraa.* Seeing her, men said, "Go away, crazy woman!" And some threw rubbish on her head; others threw dirt; others still threw a clod of earth. The Teacher, seated in the midst of a large assembly in the Jeta Grove teaching the Doctrine, saw her roaming around there and observed her mature knowledge as she came, approaching the monastery, just as she was doing so. *RD: she wandered around from that day forth in circles, and because her skirt-cloth fell from her she was given the name 'Cloak-walker.' {n.: Pa.taa, cloak; aacaraa, walker (fem.)} Parisaa ta.m disvaa "imissaa ummattikaaya ito aagantu.m maadatthaa"ti aaha. "Bhagavaa maa na.m vaarayitthaa"ti vatvaa aviduura.t.thaana.m aagatakaale "sati.m pa.tilabha bhaginii"ti aaha. Saa taavadeva buddhaanubhaavena sati.m pa.tilabhitvaa nivatthavatthassa patitabhaava.m sallakkhetvaa hirottappa.m paccupa.t.thapetvaa ukku.tika.m upanisajjaaya nisiidi. Eko puriso uttarasaa.taka.m khipi. Saa ta.m nivaasetvaa satthaara.m upasa"nkamitvaa pa~ncapati.t.thitena vanditvaa, "bhante, avassayo me hotha, eka.m me putta.m seno ga.nhi, eko udakena vuu.lho, panthe pati mato, maataapitaro bhaataa ca gehena avattha.taa mataa ekacitakasmi.m jhaayantii"ti saa sokakaara.na.m aacikkhi. When the assembly saw her, they said, "Don't allow this crazy woman to approach here." But the Blessed One said, "Do not restrain her." After she had come to a spot not far from him, he said, "Sister, regain your mind!" She immediately regained her mind through the power of the Buddha, and she noticed the fact that the clothing she had been wearing had fallen off. This brought up shame and fear of wrongdoing, and she sat down, squatting as she sat near by. Then a man threw her an outer garment. She put it on and approached the Teacher. She paid homage with the fivefold prostration and told him the cause of her grief: "Venerable sir, be my support. One of my sons was taken by a hawk; one was carried away by the water. My husband died on the road. My mother, father, and brother were overwhelmed by their house and burnt on the same funeral pyre." Satthaa "pa.taacaare, maa cintayi, tava avassayo bhavitu.m samatthasseva santika.m aagataasi. Yathaa hi tva.m idaani puttaadiina.m mara.nanimitta.m assuuni pavattesi, eva.m anamatagge sa.msaare puttaadiina.m mara.nahetu pavattita.m assu catunna.m mahaasamuddaana.m udakato bahutaran"ti dassento- "Catuusu samuddesu jala.m parittaka.m, tato bahu.m assujala.m anappaka.m; dukkhena phu.t.thassa narassa socanaa, ki.m kaara.naa amma tuva.m pamajjasii"ti. (Dha. pa. a.t.tha. 1.112 pa.taacaaraatheriivatthu)- Gaatha.m abhaasi. "Pa.taacaaraa, don't think about that," the Teacher said. "You've just come into the presence of one who is able to be a support for you. Just as you are now producing tears because of the death of your sons and so on, so too in continued existences without beginning or end, the tear[s] that have poured forth because of the death of sons and so on are greater than the water of the four great oceans." To show her this, he spoke this verse: The water in the four oceans is smaller than the greater amount of water of the tears of a man affected by misery and grieving. Mother, why do you neglect yourself so? RD: 'Pa.taacaaraa, think not thou art come to one able to become a help to thee. Just as now thou art shedding tears because of the death of children and the rest, so hast thou, in the unending round of life, been shedding tears, because of the death of children and the rest, more abundant than the waters of the four oceans: 'Less are the waters of the oceans four Than all the waste of waters shed in tears By heart of man who mourneth touched by Ill. Why waste thy life brooding in bitter woe?' === peace, connie #69984 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 3/26/07 3:58:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and James, > I understand your points of view very well when you read: just be aware. > I would like to explain the context more. > ----------- > Howard:To say “Should we hate our akusala? It is just a reality, it > arisesâ€? > sounds very "Zen" ;-), but even the most "Zen" of Zen masters will > say that > nothing comes from nothing. The Buddha did not recommend passivity > with regard > to kusala and akusala states, but proactiveness. The material "We > should just > develop understanding of whatever reality appears. At the moment of > developing > understanding one is not carried away by thoughts about the amount of > one’s > defilements, wondering about it how many defilements one has or > whether they are > decreasing. Just be aware instantly!" is rather amusing to me, > especially the > last sentence! > -------- > N: Kh Sujin likes to help us to have more understanding of kusala, > akusala. If we do not have any understanding of what kusala and > akusala really are how could there be the four right efforts? > ------------------------------------------ Howard: One does not have to study lists to distinguish wholesome from unwholesome. Unless one is a psychopath, one has a darn good idea of the difference. There are no surprises on those lists of kusala and akusala. And our understanding of the fine points of distinguishing wholesome from unwholesome comes about by paying attention to reality, not stories. The four right efforts are to be engaged in, practiced, honed, and improved upon. ---------------------------------------- We have > > learnt about anattaa, we have learnt that kusala and akusala are > conditioned namas, but when they appear right now how much > understanding is there? There is likely to be an underlying idea of: > I myself try not to have defilements. In theory we know that effort > is a type of nama, a cetasika, but is there understanding of its > characteristic when it appears, right now? I think that this is > difficult for all of us. > ---------- > H: The difficulty in just being aware "instantly" of > the defilements is exactly the defilements, themselves!! They need to > be weak > ened in order to be clearly aware of them, and that weakening is > accomplished > by the four right efforts, by sila bhavana in general, and by meditative > bhavana. Nothing comes from nothing, and that includes cultivation of > mindfulness > and insight. > ------- > N: I agree that nothing comes from nothing, that mindfulness and > insight have to be cultivated. If one tries first to weaken > defilements so that there can be awareness of them it seems to me > that there is an idea of self who wants to do something else first > before there can be awareness. > -------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me what there is is a worthwhile goal in mind, period. Everything we do, including studying Abhidhamma, is likely to be tainted by sense of self, of course, making this issue a red herring. To get where one needs to go, one has to do what is required to get there. Having defilements, chief of which is sense of personal self, is not a valid excuse for not doing what needs to be done to put an end to defilements. If it were, the Catch-22 would be a lock, and the Dhamma would be a colossal waste of time and energy. --------------------------------------- Also subtle lobha, clinging to a > > result has to be detected, and it is pa~n~naa that can detect this. --------------------------------------- Howard: Wisdom tends to become operative when calm, mindfulness, clarity, and attention have been cultivated. The four right efforts, repeatedly paying attention to what is actually happening at any time, and pacifying the mind by sila and meditative cultivation are means towards this. Wisdom doesn't arise randomly, and to dream that it does is to live in a world of dreams. The process of cultivation must begin with the arsenal currently available, and to not accept that is to be caught in the worst possible, self-imposed Catch-22. --------------------------------------- > Pa~n~naa develops when there is listening to the right Dhamma. --------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, that axiom, repeated again and again and again, is not the Dhamma. It is a substitute Dhamma, an ersatz Dhamma. If all it means is that one must have knowledge of the Buddha's teachings in order to adopt them, it is trivial, obvious, and almost tautologous. If it means, as I believe it does when you state it, that listening to the dhamma is the whole of Dhamma practice, it is just plain false. --------------------------------------- > I think it is helpful to have more understanding of all kinds of nama > and rupa that appear in daily life. Seeing and hearing are also > important, it is after seeing and hearing that defilements arise on > account what is seen and heard. > The four right efforts are among the factors leading to enlightenment > and that means that as such they are accompanied by right > understanding of the eightfold Path, right understanding of nama and > rupa. When we remember this all the sutta texts about them gain in > meaning. --------------------------------------- Howard: The foregoing is very hard for me to pin down as to concrete meaning. It seems to be asserting something, but I'm sorry to say I can't figure out what it is. Te four right efforts are efforts to be made, and if they are not, talk of them is useless. --------------------------------------- > I would like to quote from Kh sujin's Perfections. She speaks a great > deal of right efforts, but she emphasizes the role of pa~n~naa. > --------------------------------------- Howard: We all begin with some degree of wisdom. Were that not so, we'd be lying in a coma. But she wants to begin a journey at the end of that journey. I find that to be at best foolish. --------------------------------------- Right > > effort is a cetasika, it needs the right conditions for its arising. > --------- > Quotes: > Dhamma, whereas paññå is the condition for realizing its benefit. > Each moment of listening to the Dhamma is beneficial. There may not > always be an opportunity to apply the Dhamma, but when we have > listened to it, there are conditions for kusala dhammas to develop > and akusala dhammas gradually to decrease.> -------------------------------------------- Howard: This is nothing to argue with. Of *course* tha Dhamma should be listened to! That's a given! --------------------------------------------- > ------ > N: Really, there is no other way leading to the growth of pa~n~naa. > LIstening, considering and understanding what one hears. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: No other way, you say! Says who? Not the Buddha! The Buddha did speak of ekayana, and it was not a matter of just listening to the Dhamma. The Buddha never, ever, said this. This Khun Sujin teaching is a single-note melody that is discordant to my ears. ----------------------------------------------- With metta, Howard #69985 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha hantun1 Dear Connie and Sarah, I join Sarah in congratulating and thanking Connie for the presentation of Daana Corner & Vessantara panha. Dear Sarah, I cannot read the following: ---------- As the Dict of Pali Proper Name says: "The story also occurs in the Cariyāpitaka (i.9), and is often referred to (E.g., Sp.i.245; VbhA.414; Cv.xlii.5; c.74) as that of a birth in which the Bodhisatta's dāna pāramit& #257; reached its culmination. The earth shook seven times when Vessantara made his gifts, and this forms the subject of a dilemma in the Milinda-Pañha. (Mil. p.113; for another question, see ibid. 274f). The story of the Jātaka was sculptured in the Relic Chamber of the Mahā Thūpa. (Mhv.xxx.88) . The story of Vessantara is the first of the Jātakas to disappear from the world (AA.i.51). See also Gūlha Vessantara." ---------- As suggested by Sarah, the next subject Connie may wish to present could be about the earthquakes. I found ‘Vessantara’s Earthquake’ in Book IV, Mendaka-Panha: The Solving Of Dilemmas http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3512.htm#page_170 Respectfully, Han #69986 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, I cannot read the following: .... S: Sorry for that. Let me try and give a 'translation':) .... "The story also occurs in the Cariyaapitaka (i.9), and is often referred to (E.g., Sp.i.245; VbhA.414; Cv.xlii.5; c.74) as that of a birth in which the Bodhisatta's daana paaramitaa reached its culmination. The earth shook seven times when Vessantara made his gifts, and this forms the subject of a dilemma in the Milinda-Pa~nha. (Mil. p.113; for another question, see ibid. 274f). The story of the Jaataka was sculptured in the Relic Chamber of the Mahaa Thuupa. (Mhv.xxx.88). The story of Vessantara is the first of the Jaatakas to disappear from the world (AA.i.51). See also Guulha Vessantara." ... > As suggested by Sarah, the next subject Connie may > wish to present could be about the earthquakes. > I found ‘Vessantara’s Earthquake’ in Book IV, > Mendaka-Panha: The Solving Of Dilemmas > http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3512.htm#page_170 .... S: Thx for finding the link, Han. Metta, Sarah ======= #69987 From: han tun Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your ‘translation.’ "The story also occurs in the Cariyaapitaka (i.9), and is often referred to (E.g., Sp.i.245; VbhA.414; Cv.xlii.5; c.74) as that of a birth in which the Bodhisatta's daana paaramitaa reached its culmination. The earth shook seven times when Vessantara made his gifts, and this forms the subject of a dilemma in the Milinda-Pa~nha. (Mil. p.113; for another question, see ibid. 274f). The story of the Jaataka was sculptured in the Relic Chamber of the Mahaa Thuupa. (Mhv.xxx.88) . The story of Vessantara is the first of the Jaatakas to disappear from the world (AA.i.51). See also Guulha Vessantara." Respectfully, Han #69988 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:50 am Subject: Rupas Ch 4, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, There are different ways of classifying rúpas. One way is the classification as the four Great Elements (mahå-bhúta rúpas) and the derived rúpas (upåda rúpas), which are the other twentyfour rúpas among the twentyeight rúpas. Another way is the classification as gross rúpas (oîårika rúpas) and subtle rúpas (sukhuma rúpas). Twelve kinds of rúpa are gross; they are the sense-objects that can be experienced through the sense- doors, namely: visible object, sound, odour, flavour and the three rúpas that are tangible object, namely: solidity, temperature and motion, thus, three of the great Elements, and also the five sense- organs (pasåda rúpas) that can be the doors through which these objects are experienced. The other sixteen rúpas among the twentyeight kinds are subtle rúpas[4]. The “Visuddhimagga” (XIV, 73) states that twelve rúpas “are to be taken as gross because of impinging; the rest is subtle because they are the opposite of that.” The seven rúpas that can be sense objects [5] are impinging time and again on the five rúpas which are the sense organs. Subtle rúpas do not impinge on the senses. According to the “Visuddhimagga”, the subtle rúpas are far, because they are difficult to penetrate, whereas the gross rúpas are near, because they are easy to penetrate. There is impingement of objects on the senses time and again, but we are usually forgetful of realities. We have learnt about the four Great Elements and other rúpas and we may begin to notice different characteristics of realities when they present themselves. For example, when we are walking, rúpas such as hardness, heat or pressure may appear one at a time. We can learn the difference between the moments characteristics of realities appear one at a time, and the moments we are thinking of concepts such as feet and ground. The ground cannot impinge on the bodysense and be directly experienced. The Buddha urged the monks to develop right understanding during all their actions. ---------- footnotes: 4. As we see, of the eight inseparable rúpas six are gross, namely: three of the four Great Elements, visible object, odour and flavour, and two are subtle, namely: cohesion and nutrition. 5. They are visible object, sound, odour, flavour and three tangible objects which are three among the Great Elements. ----------- Nina. #69989 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:56 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, The object which appears is the object of which understanding should be developed. When understanding is being developed there is no attachment nor dislike of the object; no attachment when the object is kusala, no dislike when the object is akusala. We do not have to feel guilty when we enjoy ourselves, the enjoyment is only a reality. When we think of our defilements it is actually thinking of ourselves in a particular way all the time. Did we notice how busy we are with “ourselves”? We develop understanding and at times there is some awareness, but when we have problems in our daily life we become frustrated and we find it difficult to be aware of realities. Khun Sujin said: “When there is no awareness there has not been enough listening and not enough intellectual understanding of the objects of insight. One may think that it is enough to know that there are nåma and rúpa, but their characteristics have to be realized. Knowing the details of realities can help one to see their nature of anattå. This is very important for the growth of paññå. One has to become ‘a person who has listened a lot’, in Påli: bahussutta, in order to attain enlightenment.” Sarah asked Khun Sujin questions about the object of right understanding and about details one has to know. I shall quote from their conversation occurring during a traffic jam in Bangkok which lasted for hours: Khun Sujin: “One has to know the details of each of the six doorways, of the way realities are conditioned, of realities as dhåtus, elements, of the åyatanas, bases or sense-fields . The Buddha taught for fortyfive years about nåma and rúpa. Såriputta understood as soon as he heard the word ‘dhamma’, he understood realities as nåma and rúpa. For us it is different, we have to listen again and again and to consider what nåma is and what rúpa is. Seeing right now is an experience, it is just a reality. One has to consider and listen and discuss a great deal about these subjects.” ****** Nina. #69990 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Ch 4, no 4. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 3/26/07 9:51:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > There are different ways of classifying rúpas. One way is the > classification as the four Great Elements (mahå-bhúta rúpas) and the > derived rúpas (upåda rúpas), which are the other twentyfour rúpas > among the twentyeight rúpas. > ===================== Could you kindly explain in what sense the derived rupas are derived from the four great elements? Does it mean that the 4 elements are conditions for the arising of the others, and, if so, in what way exactly, or does it mean something else or more? Just calling the other rupas "derived" does no more than associate a tag. What is the precise meaning, please? With metta, Howard #69991 From: Sobhana Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions and Nibbana shennieca Hi Scott, all, Thanks for your reply. :) Scott: Actions arise, conditioned, and results follow, sooner or later, again conditioned. Things really happen. Lots of things. Complex things. Just look around you right now. All that you experience is it. Anatta has to be realized by pa~n~na, another impersonal dhamma, otherwise it all seems to hang together like 'you' 'looking around' 'the room'. Sobhana: Thoughts arise, actions arise, these explanations are fine. Whenever I meditate, I can see all types of thinking arises, some are just weird thoughts and some are lustful thoughts which doesn't appear when I'm not meditating, only when I meditate do these thoughts appear, it's frustrating. So, I know thinking and thoughts are un-controllable (sometimes almost to the verge of insanity, I'm just kidding :)). But really, whenever kusala or akusala thoughts arises, there is something in the mind that identifies and knows "ah, this is akusala, I should not encourage it" or "this is kusala, I should develop it". Isn't there a "discerning" ability in the mind? There should be, shouldn't it? There has to be an ability in any normal human being to be able to identify what we "think is good" or "what we think is bad". Even children knows that cruelty to animals is 'bad'. Most people have conscience except for people who are nihilist I suppose. An example for doing good, if we don't particularly like someone but yet we treat him/her as nice as we could, I think that is considered 'good' and deserves some merit, little things like that count, right? I don't mean doing good as in saving the world from war and famine. What I'm getting at is, even though thoughts are uncontrollable, we have the ability to discern "good thoughts" from "bad thoughts", right? Metta Sobhana #69992 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:38 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Vessantara-ites, Following up on the earlier dilemna, we come to T. W. Rhys Davids' telling of VESSANTARA'S EARTHQUAKE, www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3512.htm - 35. 'Venerable Nagasena, the Blessed One said thus: "There are these eight causes, O Bhikkhus, proximate or remote, for a mighty earthquake 1." This is an inclusive statement, a statement which leaves no room for anything to be, supplemented, a statement to which no gloss can be added. There can be no ninth reason for an earthquake. If there were, the Blessed One would have mentioned it. It, is because there is no other, that he left it unnoticed. But we find another, and a ninth reason, when we are told that on Vessantara's giving his mighty largesse the earth shook seven times 2. If, Nagasena, there are eight causes for an earthquake, then what we hear of the earthquake at Vessantara's largesse is false. And if that is true, then the statement as to the eight causes of earthquakes is false. This double-headed question, too, is subtle, hard to unravel, dark, and profound. It is now put to you. [114] No one of less knowledge can solve it, only one wise as you.' === And take a few side-trips following the footnotes: 170:1 From the Book of the Great Decease, III, 13, translated at p. 45 of my 'Buddhist Suttas,' vol. xi in this series. www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe11/sbe1103.htm 13. 'Eight are the proximate, eight the remote causes, Ananda, for the appearance of a mighty earthquake. What are the eight? This great earth, Ananda, is established on water, the water on wind, and the wind rests upon space. And at such a time, Ananda, as the mighty winds blow, the waters are shaken by the mighty winds as they blow, and by the moving water the earth is shaken. These are the first causes, proximate and remote, of the appearance of a mighty earthquake. 14. 'Again, Ananda, a Samana or a Brahman of great (intellectual) power, arid who has the feelings of his heart well under his control; or a god or fairy (devata [1]) of great might and power,--when such a one by intense meditation of the finite idea of earth or the infinite idea of water (has succeeded in realising the comparative value of things[1]) he can make this earth move and tremble and be shaken violently. These are the second causes, proximate or remote, of the appearance of a mighty earthquake. 15. 'Again, Ananda, when a Bodhisatta consciously and deliberately leaves his temporary form in the heaven of delight and descends into his mother's womb, then is this earth made to quake and tremble and is shaken violently. These are the third causes, proximate or remote, of the appearance of a mighty earthquake[2]. [detouring to the first sentence of this footnote: 2. The Bodhisatta's voluntary incarnation is looked upon by the Buddhists as a great act of renunciation, and curious legends have gathered about it... ] 16. 'Again, Ananda, when a Bodhisatta deliberately and consciously quits his mother's womb, then the earth quakes and trembles and is shaken violently. This is the fourth cause, proximate and remote, of the appearance of a mighty earthquake. 17. 'Again, Ananda,' when a Tathagata arrives at the supreme and perfect enlightenment, then this earth quakes and trembles and is shaken violently. This is the fifth cause, proximate and remote, of the appearance of a mighty earthquake. 18. 'Again, Ananda, when a Tathagata founds the sublime kingdom of righteousness, then this earth quakes and trembles and is shaken violently. This is the sixth cause, proximate and remote, of the appearance of a mighty earthquake. 19. 'Again, Ananda, when a Tathagata consciously and deliberately rejects the remainder of his life, then this earth quakes and trembles and is shaken violently. This is the seventh cause, proximate and remote, of the appearance of a mighty earthquake. 20. 'Again, Ananda, when a Tathagata passes entirely away with that utter passing away in which nothing whatever is left behind, then this earth quakes and trembles and is shaken violently. This is the eighth cause, proximate and remote, of the appearance of a mighty earthquake. === 170:2 See the Vessantara Gaataka, and compare Gaataka I, p. 74. www.sacred-texts.com/bud/j1/j1032.htm = No. 29. Ka.nha Jaataka, on the verse: With heavy loads to carry, with bad roads, They harness 'Blackie'; he soon draws the load. for a shorter version of this story of the black ox, see www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ay/ayyakaa_kaalaka.htm for more on another life of the old 'mother' in Jaataka 29, see www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/u/uppalavannaa.htm === peace, connie #69993 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: indifferent feelings nilovg Hallo Gerard, No, I think you do not get what I mean. Nina. Op 26-mrt-2007, om 13:18 heeft gerardblok het volgende geschreven: > You write: 'Here the words desirable and undesirable are not > meant as a subjective judgement, they merely indicate their nature of > being the object of kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka.' > > Isn't this a case of "begging the question"? You describe vipaakacitta > in terms of the object, desirable and undesirable, and the object in > terms of kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. #69994 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:49 pm Subject: Re: ahosi kamma nichiconn Dear Bailiff, Please advise the court that as much as I'd like to put the question to bed, the arguing with myself continues with this being my first real thought these past few mornings... rather than a transcript of that, here's the section from 2005-10-12a-Benares1.mp3: ??: I am still very confused about kamma; because the old saying always said 'your old kamma' and can you make new, good new kamma to balance the old kamma so it becomes zero? TA: When is the old kamma? ??: Could be from the past life ...? TA: You mean not now? ??: Not now. TA: Just past is already past; and what is now is present. When we talk about past kamma and present kamma it has to be the one which has fallen away is the past, and the one which is now presenting itself is the present one ??: Then when someone says "ahosi kamma" ...? TA: What does it mean? because we have to know the meaning. ahosi kamma is that which has been done, that's all; the kamma which has been done, ahosi, has done already. ??: Ahosi and [apayi???] TA: O no, that's just the thai understanding or meaning but not the meaning in pali; we don't have to think the way we understand or misunderstand because the pali term is: the kamma which has done is ahosi because it's done already. ??: So, when someone makes new kamma ...? TA: Then, it will produce result in the future; and that one has done already, so it is ahosi kamma. S: But isn't ahosi the one that won't bring results ...? TA: No, no, not at all; some will bring result in the future and some will bring this life and some has brought already in past life. J: So the kamma of the immediately past moment, if that was a kamma ... was ahosi kamma... TA: Yeah - and it can produce result in this life, see, or future life; not past life. J: ...so when we talk about 'old kamma', there's really no distinction between kamma done in this life and kamma done in a previous life. TA: Past - all past kamma... J: ...and so the new kamma of this moment is old kamma the next moment === Be further advised that I've no intention of hanging myself over this ... yet ... it does, after all, lie on the grounds of madness. For now, I keep asking myself why it matters... kamma --> result(s). Who cares about the first or the seventh weaker moments when the other five are still out there? connie (who - depending on your POV - either can't or doesn't have to perform jury duty anyway) #69995 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. : Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Howard (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > N: Really, there is no other way leading to the growth of pa~n~naa. > > LIstening, considering and understanding what one hears. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No other way, you say! Says who? Not the Buddha! The Buddha did speak > of ekayana, and it was not a matter of just listening to the Dhamma. The > Buddha never, ever, said this. This Khun Sujin teaching is a single-note melody > that is discordant to my ears. > ----------------------------------------------- Very good post, Howard. You patiently went through the thicket of wrong views presented by Nina and disentangled each of them. I hope it will be of some benefit to Nina and others. I wanted to focus on this last issue: the issue of listening. Nina states that listening to the Dhamma (and considering and understanding what one hears) is the only way for panna (wisdom) to develop. You rightly point out that the Buddha never taught that. I would also like to quote specifically what the Buddha taught in regards to listening to the Dhamma, Dhammassavana Sutta (Listening to the Dhamma): "There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five? "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. One's mind grows serene. "These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.202.than.html So, listening to the Dhamma will, at the most, result in samatha. It won't result in vipassana (insight), panna (wisdom), or nibbana (release). The benefits of listening to the Dhamma, in and of itself, if that is all one does, are superficial and not lasting. Metta, James #69996 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:55 pm Subject: Re: Daana Corner (14) ken_aitch Hi all, Phil wrote: > ------------ > I was thinking about this point. Vowing to have write speech, or studying the suttas in which right speech are described may not make it much more likely that one will have right speech. But there are suttas in which the Buddha provides intentional practices that are sure to help. In MN 61, his instructions to Rahula which I have quoted here before, he urges us to reflect before, during and after our speech (as well as actions of body and mind) as to whether what we are doing is harmful to oursleves, or others, whether it is likely to bring painful consequences. It's an extraordinary sutta in its simplicity. If one were to reflect in its light before coming to DSG, for example, it would be almost impossible to have wrong speech. If one were to reflect in its light while engaged in an argument, one would be protected. Now, how does one remember to reflect in its light. That's another matter. (A little speaker attached to my glasses, piping in this sutta constantly and my speech would be so gentle. Now of course everyone laughs at that. But I am going to see if I can rig one up.) > --------------- I would say, save yourself the trouble, Phil. I was brought up as if I had a speaker in my glasses. For my generation in Australian it was common to have one's parents constantly criticizing; "Sit up straight: elbows off the table: hold your knife properly: bring the food to your mouth, not your mouth to the food," and so on and so forth. Good behaviour was drummed into us, while in America the opposite technique was taking precedence. (I am generalising here, of course.) Children were allowed to express themselves, and they were praised for whatever they did - right or wrong - in order that they might have "self esteem." Perhaps I haven't seen much of the world, but I am constantly surprised by the bad manners some people display here at DSG. I can almost hear my parents scolding, "Is that the way to speak to someone older than you? Is that the way to speak to a lady? Is that the way to speak to someone who is only trying to help? Is that the way to speak to anyone?" Bad manners are one extreme, but, as I was saying, the other extreme doesn't work too well either. People like me (with etiquette drummed into us) are inclined to be priggish and standoffish and to think, "If that's the way you're going to behave then I can't be bothered with you." DSG wouldn't last long if left to us. :-) However, some people here at DSG have my undying admiration. Insults and ingratitude have no effect on them; regardless of any kind of behaviour, they keep on trying to help. ------------------- Ph: >This sutta doesn't require one to be concerned about whether dhammas are anatta or not. ------------------- I think you mean, "about whether there are dhammas or not." I think you are saying the Buddha taught the same old conventional things that people already knew. What makes the patient, forgiving, helpful people at DSG different from the same old conventional types you will find anywhere else? I would say it was their knowledge of conditionality (something taught only by the Buddha). To them, neither praise nor blame is of any consequence - there are only dhammas. ------------------------- Ph: > It requires one to look at what one is going to do, is doing and has just finished doing and make rational judgements about whether harm will be done, is being done, or has been done. It's not rocket science. It's just thoroughly applied decency. ------------------------- And it doesn't work. At best, it provides a veneer of decency. It doesn't destroy the kilesas that have been built up over countless aeons. ------------------- Ph: > And it provdes shelter for deeper understanding to develop, if it is to develop. It won't develop without this sort of shelter. As the sutta concludes: "Rahula, whatever recluses and brahmins in the past purified their bodily action, their verbal action, and their mental action, all did so by prepeatedly reflecting thus. Whatever recluses in the present...whatever recluses in the future...Rahula, you should train thus: "We will purify our bodily action, our verbal action and our mental action by repeatedly reflecting upon them." --------------------- There is no need to wait for admirable traits to develop before you practise satipatthana. Now is the time. You have heard some true Dhamma and, therefore, any dhamma that arises now can be known to some extent. ------------------- Ph: > "Repeatedly"...that's a key word. ------------------- The extent to which right understanding will arise now depends, above all else, on how often – how repeatedly - the Dhamma has been heard and wisely considered. Ken H #69997 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:13 pm Subject: Re: Conditions and Nibbana nichiconn hi sobhana, if i may butt in back out again: bhikkhu bodhi: ...each action has the ability to produce the result appropriate to itself just through the nature of the action itself, this is called the kammaniyama - the order of kamma, which functions autonomously. And the good and bad results that come from the wholesome and unwholesome actions - these are not rewards or punishments 721001BN.mp3 --- if memory (mine, not the computer's) serves, i got it from the www.budaedu.org audio library. one of the 10 in his nibbaana series??? peace, connie #69998 From: connie Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:35 pm Subject: no burning curiosity nichiconn Hi Sarah, Jon, Listeners, Sarah: ...Btw, if either of you or anyone comes across anything in the recordings which is curious or questionable, do bring up the points here. Very helpful for us all to consider further. Connie: Just in passing ... Jon mentioned once, laughingly, about a glowing chair? So, my shot in the dark: Path of Purity, ch. xx, in the section on Insight Corrupters [634], following a quote from the Patisambhida, ii, 100f.: Therein illumination means insight-illumination. When that arises the meditator seizes what is not the Path as the Path, and what is not the fruition as the fruition saying, "Never indeed has such illumination arisen to me before now. Surely I have reached the Path, I have reached the fruition." And the course of insight of him who has seized what is not the Path as Path, what is not the fruition as fruition is known to have gone astray. He lets go his original subject of meditation and rests relishing the illumination. **And this illumination indeed arises in the case of some bhikkhu illuminating just his seat,** in the case of others the interior of the chamber, of others the exterior of the chamber also, of others the whole monastery, a gavuta, half yojana, one, two, three yojana – and in the case of some it makes one (continuous) light from the surface of the earth as far as the Akani.t.tha Brahmaa world. And that of the Blessed One's arose illuminating the ten thousand world-elements. So here is a story of its variety: It is said that two elders sat down within a double-gabled house on Mt. Cittala. And it was the holy day of the dark fortnight. The quarters were overcase with rain-clouds. At night there was a four-fold darkness. Then one elder said, "Reverend sir, on the lion's seat in the shrineyard flowers of the five colours are visible to me now." The other replied to him, "You have said nothing wonderful, friend. Now to me fishes and turtles in the great ocean are visible at a yojana distance." But this insight-corrupter arises generally in one who has obtained calm insight. Because of the inoperation of the corruptions which have been discarded by attainment such a person produces the thought "I am a saint" like Mahaanaaga the elder, resident at Uccavaalika, like Mahaadatta the elder, resident at Hankanaka, and like Cuu.lasumana the elder, resident at Nikapennakapadhaanaghara on Mt. Cittala. nothing to do with anything else, just that the 'hot seat' caught my ear and then my eye. peace, connie #69999 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:52 pm Subject: Optimal Observance IV: Neither lying nor deceiving! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 8 Precepts which brings Divinity? The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day endowed with eight features brings high reward and blessing, & is of sublime dignity and greatness! And which are these eight features? In this, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats avoid lying & refrain from any falsehood. They speak only the factual & actual truth, they are very devoted to valid accuracy, reliable, all honest, worthy of trust & confidence, & not deceivers! May I also, this day & night, avoid lying & refrain from falsehood... By that I will follow the track & traits of the perfected Arahats! I shall then have observed the Uposatha observance day perfectly. With this fourth praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features brings high - even divine - reward & blessing & is of sublime dignity and immense greatness... Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:44 http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm See also: Truth Triumphs! Truthful Honesty is the Seventh Mental Perfection: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Truth_Triumphs.htm More on this Optimal Buddhist Uposatha Day Observance: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Fullmoon_Observance_Day.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/atthasila.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Optimal Observance IV: Neither lying nor deceiving! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....>