#70200 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry hantun1 Dear Sarah, No, I do not think you have misunderstood my comments and Lily de Silva’s. I just want to know your stance. Different persons have different opinions and we need not all agree. Respectfully, Han #70201 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 12:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Wisdom upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/1/07 3:54:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > What, in your opinion, is the value of such conjecture? To me, the > straight Abhidhamma explanations seem right but, again, so what if > they do? What is the value of my conjecture? -------------------------------------------- Howard: It is a considering, mulling over, contemplating, and attempting to understand what is the case. My perspective is tentative. Yours evidently is permanent. For you, the truth is the Abhidhamma Pitaka, engraved not in stone or gold but in diamond - sacrosanct and never to be questioned. Enjoy. ------------------------------------------- > > According to the texts, wise consideration of the Buddha's teaching > leads to enlightenment. There is no mention of wisely considering > one's own teachings (or theories). -------------------------------------------- Howard: My considerations are an attempt to understand the Dhamma as taught in the suttas. I consider the Abhidhamma Pitaka to be a later compilation and summarization of the Buddha's teachings. I view it as open to questioning more strongly than the suttas. I consider the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka to be more or less the direct word of the Buddha. Incidentally, everyone, to the extent s/he believes anything at all, believes what s/he determines is likely right to believe, whatever the source. That includes you. For some reason, though, you seem to feel it is fine for you to monitor and judge what I have a right to consider and believe. Have you considered initiating a Buddhist (or Abhidhammist) Inquisition, Ken? Instead of dealing with content, you are preaching reliance on authority, an authority that you take it upon yourself to define. That is not the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha said to consider for oneself, and he did not even exclude his sutta teachings from such consideration. --------------------------------------------- > > Therefore, I don't think either of us should be influenced by > thoughts of "This seems right (or wrong) to me." ---------------------------------------------- Howard: It is either that, or reliance on someone else. How about if I choose Mohammed? Is that good? How does one choose whose words to rely on except by means of ones own experience and consideration? Ken, please do not attempt to serve as the censor of my thoughts or my expression. If you wish to discuss content, fine. If you'd rather not, that is also fine. But don't attempt to control what I look at, what I consider, or what I write. It is a fruitless effort, in any case, because I will not be intimidated. ----------------------------------------------- > > Ken H > ======================= With metta, Howard #70202 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 4:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > No, I do not think you have misunderstood my comments > and Lily de Silva’s. I just want to know your stance. > Different persons have different opinions and we need > not all agree. .... S: That's true! There will always be different opinions. So, if I may ask, what do you understand by bhavana (which could not occur whilst listening to a discourse)? I'd like to understand your (and Lily de Silva's) idea better. Metta, Sarah ========= #70203 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 12:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] the nature of wisdom/Nina upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/1/07 4:19:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > thanks for your post. > ======================== Thank you for *your* post, Nina. I much appreciate your discussing the content, the issue itself, rather that choosing to define what I have the right to consider. I agree that viewing pa~n~na as a distinct faculty and not merely the proper functioning of other cognitive functions such as sa~n~na is a reasonable point of view. What is most persusasive to me in your presentation is the view of it as the distinct faculty that sees through, dispells, and uproots ignorance. I think most especilly of your words "Pa~n~naa can eradicate defilements. Pa~n~naa can be very, very gradually developed by understanding the reality appearing at this moment. We do not know pa~n~naa until it arises. When it arises it can eliminate some of our ignorance and wrong view of the realities that appear." It is traditional to think of wisdom as the sword that uproots defilements, and what you wrote here has reminded me of that. You have had a real effect with this post, Nina, causing me to strongly reconsider. I thank you for that, and, again, I thank you for addressing the issue itself, and not giving an argument from authority or attempting to censor my thoughts. Much appreciated! With metta, Howard #70204 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 5:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (1) sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Connie & all, --- Scott Duncan wrote: #69691 >> Sarah: "I think this 'firm state of being in the firm teaching' was > only arrived at when she heard the teachings in her last life. Once > it is a 'firm' realisation at sotapanna, it is 'straight-forward' in > the sense of assured destiny and so on. > > The virtue may have been 'fulfilled' in her previous lives (as it may > be for us now), but just for those lifetimes, don't you think?" > > Scott: Okay, so she experienced the Path and Fruit at the level of > sotapanna in the penultimate lifetime. This is what is meant by > 'gained faith'. The 'alterations' effected by magga and phala moments > are, due to that which is eradicated, 'accumulated' so to speak - they > 'reside' in each moment of consciousness. She may have been > 'virtuous' for aeons but it wasn't until the last lifetime that > conditions becames such that her burning of the curry was experienced > as it was. Have I got it? I had been just thinking of sadhaa, I guess. .... Sarah: You got just what I had in mind. I think this also relates to your question about 'without falling away from it'(#68810), but I didn't see a context for that. However, in the context of this discussion, see Siihaa, #69201 which may throw a few spanners in the works:). We read that she heard the teaching from the Buddha, 'gained faith' (dhamma.m sutvaa pa.tiladdhasaddhaa)and ordained. OK. I would have thought that this meant she became a sotapanna, but maybe not.... Because then the text says that having gone forth 'although she began insight'(pabbajitvaa ca vipassana.m aarabhitvaapi), 'she was nto able to turn her mind back when it strayed externally to various bases.' Well, being overwhelmed by sense objects can happen to a sotapanna, but it also says that 'For seven years she was oppressed by wrong thoughts' (micchaavitakkehi), not obtaining mental satisfaction. Do the 'wrong thoughts' imply wrong views or just akusala (without wrong views)? I assume the latter, but can't be sure... Of interest is that she then put the noose around her neck one day, hung it from a branch of a tree. Then 'because of her former practice,she applied her mind to insight' (pubbaaci.n.navasena vipassanaaya citta.m abhiniihari). Her insight increase and she became an arahant then and there. The noose fell off. In her verse she said she had been 'afflicted by desire for sensual pleasures, because of unreasoned thinking (ayoniso manasikaaraa), previously I was conceited, being without self-mastery over the mind' etc. So, I think the wrong thinking above just referred to ayoniso manasikaaraa - not necessarily any wrong view. Ah yes, more in the further detail: "There, because of unreasoned thinking (ayoniso manasikaaraa) means: thinking something is happiness when it is unpleasant because of the wrong application of one's thought (anupaaya-manasikaarena), through being in the grip of an hallucination...." Sarah: As we know, even the sotapana who has 'gained faith' still has the vipallasas of taking what dukkha for being sukkha and taking the asubha for subha (without wrong view of self). In fact, only the arahant doesn't any longer take what is dukkha (unpleasant) for sukkha (happiness) anymore. Very interesting, thx again, Connie. I'll add another good quote full of pertinent reminders on the danger of this vipallasa from the same segment of Siihaa's after the sign-off. Metta, Sarah Pariyu.t.thitaa klesehi, subhasa~n~naanuvattiniiti pariyu.t.thaanapattehi kaamaraagaadikilesehi abhibhuutaa ruupaadiisu subhanti pavattaaya kaamasa~n~naaya anuvattanasiilaa. Sama.m cittassa na labhi.m, raagacittavasaanugaati kaamaraagasampayuttacittassa vasa.m anugacchantii iisakampi cittassa sama.m cetosamatha.m cittekaggata.m na labhi.m. 78. Obsessed (pariyu.t.thitaa) by the defilements (kilesehi), giving way to the notion of happiness (subhasa~n~naanuvattinii) means: overcome by defilments such as desire for sensual pleasures (kaama-raagaadi-kilesehi), etc, which are obsessions (pariyu.t.thaana-pattehi), being compliant by nature because of the perception of sensual pleasures (kaama-sa~n~naaya) that occurs, namely, "There is happiness in material form." I did not obtain peace of mind (sama.m cittassa), being under the influence of thoughts of passion (raaga-citta-vasaanugaa) means: having fallen under (anugacchantii) the control (vasa.m) of my mind that was associated with desire for sensual pleasures (kaama-raaga-sampayutta-cittassa), I did not obtain even a little peace of mind (cittassa sama.m), mental calm (ceto-samatha.m), single-pointedness of mind (citt'ekaggata.m). ================ #70205 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 5:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (46) sarahprocter... Dear All, And for anyone who didn't read it, I highly recommend the account of Therii Bhaadaa beginning with: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69655 Then follow the links below it. In brief, she became infatuated with a thief, married him, but ended up pushing him over a cliff. Still she became an arahant in that lifetime with all the highest attainments.... Accumulations!! Thx, Connie! Metta, Sarah ======= #70206 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 5:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry hantun1 Dear Sarah, I cannot answer for Lily de Silva, but I will say my own understanding. According to “Pali-Proper-Names/anaathapindika” the Buddha greeted him and talked to him on various aspects of his teaching, and Anaathapindika was immediately converted and became a Sotaapanna.” By noting the word “immediately” I understand that Anaathapindika became Sotaapanna without practicing bhaavanaa. How this is possible? By modern-day standard, that may not be possible, but it was during Lord Budhha’s time, and he was listening directly to Him, and he must also have accumulations and conditions from previous lives. Secondly, if he had practiced bhaavanaa after attaining Sotaapanna, there was no need for him to weep when he listened to Saariputta just before his death. Saariputta taught him "Then, householder, you should train yourself in this way: ----- and so on, which are all concerning vipassanaa bhaavanaa, If he had practiced bhaavanaa he would not have said: “It's just that for a long time I have attended to the Teacher, and to the monks who inspire my heart, but never before have I heard a talk on the Dhamma like this." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.143.than.html So my understanding is Anaathapindika practiced daana and siila exceptionally well, but he did not practice bhaavanaa. Respectfully, Han #70207 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 5:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry sarahprocter... Dear Han, It's nice to be chatting to you. A welcome break from packing and so on! just for the first part for now: --- han tun wrote: > According to “Pali-Proper-Names/anaathapindika” the > Buddha greeted him and talked to him on various > aspects of his teaching, and Anaathapindika was > immediately converted and became a Sotaapanna.” By > noting the word “immediately” I understand that > Anaathapindika became Sotaapanna without practicing > bhaavanaa. .... S: I'm still not sure what you mean by 'practicing bhaavanaa' here. Do we need to use the word 'practicing' or can we not just say that whilst listening to the teaching, there was bhavana, there was vipassana arising? I don't believe that was/is a question of 'doing' or 'practicing' anything, but rather that the listening to the Dhamma is the condition (for those with the ready accumulations) for insight to arise. I'll look forward to any further clarifications on this point. .... >How this is possible? By modern-day > standard, that may not be possible, but it was during > Lord Budhha’s time, and he was listening directly to > Him, and he must also have accumulations and > conditions from previous lives. .... S: I fully agree with you. The combination of all those factors.... Metta, Sarah p.s Thanks again for your leadership in the daana corner. It's proved to be very helpful and has led to some great discussions. I'll continue to read the extracts when I travel, but probably won't be able to respond until I return. Pls continue as usual without waiting for me:) ======== #70208 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 5:36 am Subject: Rupas Ch 5, no 5 nilovg Dear friends, If we had not studied the Abhidhamma we would have thought that all cittas originate in what we call in conventional language “brain”. One may cling to a concept of brain and take it for self. The Abhidhamma can clear up misunderstandings about bodily phenomena and mental phenomena and the way they function. It explains how physical phenomena and mental phenomena are interrelated. Mental phenomena are dependant on physical phenomena[8] and physical phenomena can have mental phenomena as conditioning factors. The conditioning factors for what we call body and mind are impermanent. Why then do we take body and mind for something permanent? We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (III, Khandhå-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Elements, First Fifty, Ch 2, § 18, Cause) that the Buddha said to the monks at Såvatthí: Body, monks is impermanent. That which is the cause, that which is the condition for the arising of body, that also is impermanent. How, monks, can a body which is compounded of the impermanent come to be permanent?.... The same is said about the mental phenomena (classified as four aggregates or khandhas). We then read: Thus seeing, the welltaught ariyan disicple is repelled by body, is repelled by feeling, by perception, by the “activities”. He is repelled by consciousness. Being repelled by it he lusts not for it: not lusting he is set free. Thus he realizes: ”Rebirth is destroyed, lived is the righteous life, done is my task, for life in these conditions there is no here-after.” --------- footnote: 8. In the planes of existence where there are nåma and rúpa. ---------- Nina. #70209 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 5:42 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 9. nilovg Dear friends, We need to develop understanding of paramattha dhammas life after life, in order to see dhamma as dhamma, to see it as anattå. We cling to the idea of “our whole body”, but when there is touching, hardness is the dhamma which appears. The idea of the whole body is only in one’s memory. Khun Sujin said: “When there is touching, where is your head, where are your legs? Only in your memory. When there is touching you may not realize it as merely a moment of experiencing an object. Deep in your mind there is still the idea of ‘something’. For instance, when you touch something in the dark you like to know what it is, thus there is still ‘something’. There are only six doors, and one object is appearing at a time. It does not stay, waiting for you to touch it.” Several conditioning factors are needed for the experience of hardness, such as the rúpa which is hardness and the rúpa which is bodysense. Also these conditioning factors are themselves conditioned. Hardness and softness are characteristics of the Element of solidity, one of the four Great Elements and this is conditioned by the other three Elements of cohesion, heat and motion arising together with it. The rúpa which is bodysense is produced by kamma. The experience of tangible object through the bodysense is vipåka, the result of kamma. We see how intricate the combination of different conditioning factors are; they are just there for a moment of experiencing hardness. We cannot direct the coming together of these factors and none of them can last. They are only present for an extremely short while, they are insignificant dhammas. ********* Nina. #70210 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sarah: I'm still not sure what you mean by 'practicing bhaavanaa' here. Do we need to use the word 'practicing' or can we not just say that whilst listening to the teaching, there was bhavana, there was vipassana arising? I don't believe that was/is a question of 'doing' or 'practicing' anything, but rather that the listening to the Dhamma is the condition (for those with the ready accumulations) for insight to arise. I'll look forward to any further clarifications on this point. Han: I have no problem if you do not like the word ‘practicing bhaavanaa.’ Equally, I cannot appreciate ‘there was bhaavanaa’ or ‘there was vipassanaa arising.’ The main difference is you do not believe in ‘doing’ or ‘practicing’ anything, while I believe that one should be ‘doing’ and ‘practicing.’ I do not think this difference can ever be bridged over. So I request you to agree to disagree. :>) Respectfully, Han #70211 From: connie Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:20 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner & Vessantara panha nichiconn Dear Friends, continuing: 39. 'Just, O king, as when a huge and mighty cauldron 2 is placed in an oven full of water, and crowded with grains of rice, then the fire burning beneath heats first of all the cauldron, and when that has become hot the water begins to boil, and as the water boils the grains of rice are heated and dive hither and thither in the water, and a mass of bubbles arises, and a garland of foam is formed--just so, O king, king Vessantara gave away whatsoever is in the world considered most difficult to bestow, and by reason of the nature of his generosity the great winds beneath were unable to refrain from being agitated throughout, and on the great winds being thrown into confusion the waters were shaken, and on the waters being disturbed the broad earth trembled, and so then the winds and the waters and the earth became all three, as it were, of one accord by the immense and powerful influence that resulted from that mighty giving. And there was never another giving, O king, which had such power as that generosity of the great king Vessantara. footnote 176:2 Mahati-mahaa-pariyogo; not in Childers nor in the Sanskrit Petersburg Dictionary. Hiinati-kumbure renders it itaa mahat wu mahaa bhaaganayak. 40. 'And just, O king, as there are many gems of value found in the earth--the sapphire, and the great sapphire, and the wish-conferring gem, and the cat's eye, and the flax gem 1, and the Acacia gem 2, and the entrancing gem, and the favourite of the sun 3, and the favourite of the moon 4, and the crystal, and the kaggopakkamaka 5, and the topaz, and the ruby, and the Masara stone 6--but the glorious gem of the king of kings is acknowledged to be the chief of all these and surpassing all, for the sheen of that jewel, O king, spreads round about for a league on every side 7--just so, O king, of all the gifts that have ever been given upon earth, even the greatest and the most unsurpassed, that giving of the good king Vessantara is acknowledged to surpass them all. And it was on the giving of that gift, O king, that the broad earth shook seven times 1.' footnotes 177:1 Ummaa-puppha; rendered diya-mendiri-pushpa in the Simhalese. Clough gives diyameneri as a plant 'commelina cucullata.' 177:2 2 Siriisa-puppha; rendered maaraa-pushpa in the Simhalese, maaraa being the seed of the 'adenanthera pavonia.' 177:3 Suriya-kanto, which the Simhalese merely repeats. 177:4 Kanda-kanta; and so also in the Simhalese. These are mythic gems, supposed to be formed out of the rays of the sun and moon respectively, and visible only when they shine. 177:5 The Simhalese has kaggopakramaya, which is not in Clough. 177:6 Masaara-galla, which the Simhalese renders by masaara-galya, which Bohtlingk-Roth think is sapphire or smaragd, and Clough renders 'emerald,' and the commentary on the Abhidhaana Padiipikaa, quoted by Childers, says is a stone produced in the hill of Masaara (otherwise unknown). On similar lists of gems elsewhere see the Kullavagga IX, 1, 3, and my note at pp. 249, 250 of the 'Buddhist Suttas' (vol. xi of the 'Sacred Books of the East'). 177:7 So also in the Mahaa-Sudassana Sutta I, 32, translated in the 'Buddhist Suttas,' p. 256. Compare above, p. 35 of the text. 178:1 There is here a long paragraph in the Simhalese omitted in the Paali. 41. 'A marvellous thing is it, Nagasena, of the Buddhas, and a most wonderful, that the Tathagata even when a Bodisat (in the course of becoming a Buddha) [119] was so unequalled in the world, so mild, so kind, and held before him aims so high, and endeavours so grand. You have made evident, Nagasena, the might of the Bodisats, a most clear light have you cast upon the perfection of the Conquerors, you have shown how, in the whole world of gods and men, a Tathagata, as he continues the practice of his noble life, is the highest and the best. Well spoken, venerable Nagasena. The doctrine of the Conqueror has been exalted, the perfection of the Conqueror has been glorified, the knot of the arguments of the adversaries has been unravelled, the jar of the theories of the opponents has been broken in pieces, the dilemma so profound has been made clear, the jungle has been turned into open country, the children of the Conqueror have received the desire of their hearts 2. It is so, as you say, O best of the leaders of schools, and I accept that which you have said!' footnote: 178:2 Nibbaahana; rendered abhiwarddhiya in the Simhalese. Here ends the dilemma as to the earthquake at Vessantara's gift, translated by T.W.Rhys-Davids. [ www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3512.htm ] peace, connie #70212 From: connie Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:19 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nichiconn Dear Friends, #10 of 11 for Pa.taacaaraa: arahatta.m pana patvaa sekkhakaale attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa uparivisesassa nibbattitaakaara.m vibhaaventii udaanavasena- 112. "na"ngalehi kasa.m khetta.m, biijaani pavapa.m chamaa; puttadaaraani posentaa, dhana.m vindanti maa.navaa. 113. "Kimaha.m siilasampannaa, satthusaasanakaarikaa; nibbaana.m naadhigacchaami, akusiitaa anuddhataa. 114. "Paade pakkhaalayitvaana, udakesu karomaha.m; paadodaka~nca disvaana, thalato ninnamaagata.m. 115. "Tato citta.m samaadhesi.m, assa.m bhadra.mvajaaniya.m; tato diipa.m gahetvaana, vihaara.m paavisi.m aha.m; seyya.m olokayitvaana, ma~ncakamhi upaavisi.m. 116. "Tato suuci.m gahetvaana, va.t.ti.m okassayaamaha.m; padiipasseva nibbaana.m, vimokkho ahu cetaso"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. And after attaining Arahatship and looking over her attainment at the time she was a trainer, explaining the way this excellent condition came into existence through a solemn utterance, she spoke these verses: 112. Ploughing the field with ploughs, sowing seeds in the ground, nourishing wives and children, young brahmans find wealth. 113. Why do I, possessed of virtuous conduct, complying with the teaching of the Teacher, not obtain quenching? I am not slack, nor puffed up. 114. I washed my feet and paid attention to the waters. And seeing the water for the feet come flowing downhill from the high land to the low land, 115. Then I concentrated my mind, like a noble thoroughbred horse. Then I took a lamp, and I entered my cell. I inspected the bed and sat on the couch. 116. Then I took a needle and drew out the wick. The liberation of my mind was like the quenching of the lamp. RD: With ploughshares ploughing up the fields, with seed Sown in the breast of earth, men win their crops, Enjoy their gains and nourish wife and child. (112) Why cannot I, whose life is pure, who seek To do the Master's will, no sluggard am, Nor puffe'd up, win to Nibbana's bliss? (113) One day, bathing my feet, I sit and watch The water as it trickles down the slope. Thereby I set my heart in steadfastness, As one doth train a horse of noble breed. (114) Then going to my cell, I take my lamp, And seated on my couch I watch the flame. (115) Grasping the pin, I pull the wick right down Into the oil. . . . Lo! the Nibbana of the little lamp! Emancipation dawns! My heart is free! (116) === peace, connie #70213 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Han: I have no problem if you do not like the word > ‘practicing bhaavanaa.’ Equally, I cannot appreciate > ‘there was bhaavanaa’ or ‘there was vipassanaa > arising.’ The main difference is you do not believe in > ‘doing’ or ‘practicing’ anything, while I believe that > one should be ‘doing’ and ‘practicing.’ I do not think > this difference can ever be bridged over. So I request > you to agree to disagree. :>) ... S: :>) Likewise, it's good to just be able to agree to disagree without any problem and in a friendly manner. I think to summarise, as you explain, when bhavana or vipassana is seen in terms of 'one should be 'doing' or 'practicing' that it then becomes inconceivable that bhavana or vipassana can occur whilst listening to the Dhamma. This is because it seems that one isn't doing anything. On the otherhand, I understand it to be an illusion that one can do or practice anything because there are merely dhammas arising by conditions at anytime. Let's not say that our differences 'can never be bridged over'. We can keep considering and discussing different aspects of the Dhamma and then who knows? Metta and appreciation, Sarah ========= #70214 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Sorry for the delay, Spring Break for the kids and I am broken by it... S: Its morning... K: "And your conscience is clear. :-)" Scott: Yeah, because I can't remember what happened. K: "I think your previous examples of agreeable/disagreeable were excellent. Larry is making you work for harder, however, and we will all benefit from that. The more examples, the merrier." Yes, I appreciate being pushed here - Its hard to articulate exactly what differentiates a moment of vipaaka and its quality from experience deriving from impulsion. I think learning precisely how this is theoretically creates 'mental space' which can facilitate real 'learning'. K: "Correct me if I am wrong, but I think your point is that knowing kusala from akusala can be very hard, and so, how much harder would it be to know the agreeable results of the hard-to-know kusala from the disagreeable results of the hard-to-know akusala?" This is what I'm thinking. Again it might seem like splitting hairs but such consideration is mental development, as far as I'm concerned. K: "You have gone into that a bit more deeply than I have, so I will take your word for it. :-)" Very perilous, my good man! K: "Those functional cittas between vipaka and impulsion depend on one's accumulations don't they? (Rather than just on the nature of the vipaka?)" Yeah, I think so. I wonder about the term 'functional'. I guess it refers to the function of moving 'forward' in relation to the whole 'stream' thing. I think vipaaka-citta, for that moment, is the end of accumulation as far as the particular kamma to which it is linked. The seeing of the disagreeable is the fruit of the disagreeable action, or something like that. This is what I'm trying to clarify. Like, if every initial instance of experience in the five sense-doors is vipaaka, then this is the meaning of being in this realm of existence. Over and over again each waking moment is patterned in a way after the first patisandhi-citta of the current existence. And, while we sleep, every bhavanga-citta is anchored to the last moment of the existence just past (which conditioned the patisandhi-citta) and, I guess for humans, is kusala. Corrections welcome, please, as the above is my conjecture - I don't know for sure about this. K: "...We don't `look' for dhammas - we understand them. (Or don't understand them - depending on conditions.)" I think so. Thanks, Ken. Any further thoughts? Sincerely, Scott. #70215 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry hantun1 Dear Sarah, I appreciate very much your patience and understanding towards a person like me. I also enjoy very much discussing with you, because I know that you will forgive me even if I say something outrageous. Okay, Sarah, let’s keep the bridge open! You said you are packing. I wish you a safe and pleasant trip, and please take with you a sincere dose of metta from me. avera hontu, abyapajjha hontu, anigha hontu, sukhi attanam pariharantu. Respectfully, Han #70216 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 6:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry scottduncan2 Dear Han and Sarah, May I put a word in? This is one of the big questions here... Han: "I have no problem if you do not like the word "practicing bhaavanaa." Equally, I cannot appreciate there was "bhaavanaa" or "there was vipassanaa arising." The main difference is you do not believe in "doing" or "practicing" anything, while I believe that one should be "doing" and "practicing." I do not think this difference can ever be bridged over." Sarah: "On the otherhand, I understand it to be an illusion that one can do or practice anything because there are merely dhammas arising by conditions at anytime." I'm not likely going to articulate this well: Can it be said that if one finds oneself 'doing' or 'practising' - given that this 'doing' is conditioned by Right Understanding - that this is bhaavanaa? In other words, effort arises which conditions citta, which conditions a series of cittaa, I guess, including various mind-produced ruupaa (speech and bodily intimations) which can be mistaken for 'practise' done by someone? Yet mental development continues. If that makes sense at all... Sincerely, Scott. #70217 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry hantun1 Dear Scott (and Sarah), Scott: I'm not likely going to articulate this well: Can it be said that if one finds oneself 'doing' or 'practising' - given that this 'doing' is conditioned by Right Understanding - that this is bhaavanaa? In other words, effort arises which conditions citta, which conditions a series of cittaa, I guess, including various mind-produced ruupaa (speech and bodily intimations) which can be mistaken for 'practise' done by someone? Yet mental development continues. If that makes sense at all... Han: For me it makes sense. We have discussed before whether awareness (sati) can be made to arise at will (repeat) at will? It is the same thing. Can someone “practice” something at will? At any rate, as you said, mental development continues – whether someone is practicing, or some cittas and cetasikas (and not beings) are contemplating on sankhaara dhammas or naamas and ruupas. Respectfully, Han #70218 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 8:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, I'm still considering your good points from the last reply, and have a number or errands to run today, but I'll just add this quote from U Naarada's 'Guide To Conditional Relations, Part I', pp. 53-54, in the section on 'Strong Asynchronous Kamma' for your consideration: "The Strange Results Produced by Asynchronous Kamma. There is no place where materiality and mentality are stored for their continual arising and ceasing in succession. Just as a match is struck a flame appears from nowhere and then disappears, so also, when object and base coincide consciousness and mental factors arise from nowhere, last for a thought-moment and then cease and vanish altogether. In this condition, volition, which is an ultimate reality, also arises and ceases in the same fashion. However, force, which is left behind after volition ceases, is not destroyed and may be present for countless worlds in the successive continuity of a being, bound by craving, conceit and wrong views, to bring a result suddenly. The result cannot be foreseen and seems to be spontaneous. Indeed, these forces give strange results. As instances, all of a sudden (i) a poor man wins a lottery and becomes rich and (ii) presidents, prime ministers and national leaders are assinated and gaoled." Sincerely, Scott. #70219 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 9:33 am Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) moellerdieter Hi Sarah and friends, using the opportunity to say hello and chip in the issue : ' Talking about bhavana..' Assuming that there is agreement of the meaning cultivation of/by mind with the aim of panna/wisdom , the question came into my mind, why the 3fold Noble Path training would not better been called Sila , Bhavana , Panna . Samadhi , usually translated by concentration , seems to me a much weaker reference to the links 6,7,8 than Bhavana as we talking about training... just wondering .. what do you think? with Metta Dieter #70220 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nilovg Dear Dieter and all those interested in bhavana, Hallo Dieter, good to see you here. It depends how one sees training. I think the cetasikas of the eightfold Path train together, they all train with pa~n~naa. Right concentration and right effort, they arise together with pa~n~naa. Training or mental development, understanding nama and rupa, the mental phenomena and physical phenomena of our life. This can be by way of study and discussion, which is also bhavana, by way of reading and writing, by way of considering right now any dhamma that appears: seeing, visible object, anger, metta. All this is included in bhavana. When talking to another person, there can be a moment of awareness of hardness, for example, when moving the jaws, or of sound while speaking. All this is so common, so natural, it does not interfere with our activities. Even a short moment of right awareness is valuable, it is mental development or bhavana. One may think: it is so slight, so insignificant. But when awareness arises by its own condiitons and there is no attachment to it, it is right awareness, and it is accumulated in this way little by little. It develops because of its own conditions. Indeed, no person here to do anything. Does this answer your question, Dieter, or would you like more clarification on some points? Nina. Op 1-apr-2007, om 18:33 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > the question came into my mind, why the 3fold Noble Path training > would not better been called Sila , Bhavana , Panna . > Samadhi , usually translated by concentration , seems to me a much > weaker reference to the links 6,7,8 than Bhavana as we talking > about training... #70221 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable nilovg Dear Scott, The patisandhicitta is kusala vipaaka for humans. We have to add: vipaaka, it is result of kusala kamma. The patisandhicitta is not produced by the dying-consciousness of last life, but by the javanacittas that preceded this. The cuticitta of last life is similar to all bhavangacittas of the life that is just ending. The cuti-citta of last life conditioned the following patisandhicitta just by way of anantara paccaya, samanantara paccaya. anantarupanissaya paccaya. All former accumulations were in that way as it were carried on from the past lives to the present life. Nina. Op 1-apr-2007, om 15:34 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > And, > while we sleep, every bhavanga-citta is anchored to the last moment of > the existence just past (which conditioned the patisandhi-citta) and, > I guess for humans, is kusala. Corrections welcome, please, as the > above is my conjecture #70222 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 5:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry ken_aitch Hi Sarah, ------------------- S: > Ken H, you mentioned that 'he had heard many Dhamma-talks and practiced insight-development - maybe not in this lifetime.....'. When it comes to the attainment of insights (vipassana), I believe they occurred in the present lifetime after hearing the teachings. -------------------- Yes, I see that now. When I wrote that, I hadn't read all of the links Han gave us, and so I didn't know whether Anaathapindika had heard about the Buddha and his teaching before he actually met him. If he had then (it stands to reason) he would have heard many Dhamma talks in that current lifetime, and he would have put into practice what he had heard. If he hadn't (as turns out to be the case), then maybe there was only the one Dhamma talk that he heard directly from the Buddha. And, of course, he would have put that into practice right there and then, while the talk continued. ----------------------- S: > Of course, like the Theriis, all the 'ingredients' would have been in place and the supporting conditions developed in former Buddha-sasanas as you say. As for the 'talk specifically designed for the needs of a Stream- enterer', I'm not sure. The sotapanna is destined to become fully enlightened regardless of any talk. However, of course ariyan disciples appreciate hearing the dhamma more than worldlings and these were the right words at the right time for further insight. ------------------------- In the article that Han is quoting, we have read that: "The Buddha greeted him and talked to him on various aspects of his teaching. Anaathapindika was immediately converted and became a Sotaapanna.> Therefore, we know that, even in the early days immediately following the Buddha's enlightenment, certain Dhamma talks were given to worldling laymen. But did ariyan laymen receive the same talks that ariyan monks received? In the sutta, Sariputta says, "This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth." And Anaathapindika replies, "In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white." I notice that the talk in question was not about overcoming wrong view; it was about overcoming clinging. That's why I thought it was one specifically tailored to the needs of an *ariyan* learner. (And yes, I do know that *everyone* needs to know about *all* aspects of Dhamma before they can experience any level of enlightenment!) :-) -------------------------------- S: > Interesting. I'll look forward to reading any further comments you have on this. -------------------------------- Thanks, and I'll look forward to yours. Meanwhile, however, you have some serious wave riding to do, so leave it till after your `surfari.' Ken H #70223 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 5:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (46) scottduncan2 Dear Sarah (and Connie), Its a good one: S: "I highly recommend the account of Therii Bhaadaa..." I like this part. It applies to me (and women I know and have known): "Na hi sabbesu .thaanesu, puriso hoti pa.n.dito; itthiipi pa.n.ditaa hoti, tattha tattha vicakkha.naa. "Na hi sabbesu .thaanesu, puriso hoti pa.n.dito; itthiipi pa.n.ditaa hoti, lahu.m atthavicintikaa"ti." A man is not wise on all occasions. A woman is also wise, being skilful here and there. A man is not wise on all occasions. A woman is also wise, quickly thinking of what is useful. RD: Not in every case is Man tho wiser ever; Woman, too, when swift to see, may prove as clever. Not in every case is Man the wiser reckoned; Woman, too, is clever, and she think but a second.' Sincerely, Scott. #70224 From: han tun Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 5:44 pm Subject: Daana Corner (31) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, It is taken from “Giving from the Heart” by M. O'C. Walshe. It is being presented in four parts. The following is 2 of 4 parts. Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ It was mentioned above that, according to the Bible, it is more blessed to give than to receive. It is interesting to note that, just as in the practice of metta-bhavana, the meditation on universal love, there is given an actual method for fulfilling that difficult Judaeo-Christian injunction "love thy neighbor as thyself," so too Buddhism can give a precise technical meaning to this biblical statement. If we receive something pleasant, this in Buddhism is considered to be vipaka, the result of previous meritorious conduct. It is nice while it lasts, but when it is finished, its virtue is exhausted. To give, however is kusala kamma, skilled action, which will be productive of some pleasant vipaka or result for the giver. In this way it can be clearly seen to be more "blessed" to give than to receive. True, this "blessing" remains purely mundane and limited, being "merit-making for the world" (lokassa). But as all our actions are habit-forming, giving once inclines us to give again, so that the result tends to be cumulative. Also, of course, this king of kusala kamma can lead on to other things, and it is not for nothing that dana is listed as the first among the ten paramis or "perfections," coming even before sila or morality. It is, after all, possible for an immoral person to be generous! The late Dr. I.B.Horner selected ten Jataka stories to illustrate the ten perfections, in a little book that is widely used as an introductory Pali reader, and she used the delightful story of the self-sacrificing hare (No. 316) to illustrate the perfection of giving. Strangely enough, though, to the Western mind at least, the most popular Jataka story on this theme is the very last, the Vessantara Jataka (No. 547), in which the Bodhisatta gives everything away including, finally, his wife and children — a distinctly dubious moral, one might think! But in Thailand this story has been singled out and is regularly made the subject of special readings and sermons for the edification of the laity. “Giving from the Heart” by M. O'C. Walshe to be continued. Metta, Han #70225 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 12:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Wisdom ken_aitch --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 4/1/07 3:54:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > ken_aitch@... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > What, in your opinion, is the value of such conjecture? To me, the > > straight Abhidhamma explanations seem right but, again, so what if > > they do? What is the value of my conjecture? > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > It is a considering, mulling over, contemplating, and attempting to > understand what is the case. My perspective is tentative. Yours evidently is > permanent. For you, the truth is the Abhidhamma Pitaka, engraved not in stone or > gold but in diamond - sacrosanct and never to be questioned. Enjoy. > ------------------------------------------- Hi Howard, You have not understood my message properly. I was trying to describe the anatta perspective that I think should be applied to Dhamma study. From the Discourse to Kalamas, for example, we can see two categories of people. There are those that have not yet chosen a teacher, and there are those that have. I would be reluctant to describe myself as one who has chosen the Buddha as my teacher. That would bring the idea of self into Dhamma study. But I can learn the difference between the two categories. I think that before choosing a teacher we rely on our own judgement of what is real and what is not real. After choosing a teacher, we learn his/her explanations of real and unreal, and we find out by trial-and-error whether they were right or wrong. Therefore, I can't see how one's own theories of "wisdom" for example can have any relevance once a teacher has been chosen. If there is doubt as to what is meant by wisdom then all we can do is to ask for clarification. To make suggestions of our devising is not a part of the student/teacher way of doing things (as I see it). ----------------- KH: > > According to the texts, wise consideration of the Buddha's teaching > leads to enlightenment. There is no mention of wisely considering > one's own teachings (or theories). Howard: > My considerations are an attempt to understand the Dhamma as taught in the suttas. I consider the Abhidhamma Pitaka to be a later compilation and summarization of the Buddha's teachings. I view it as open to questioning more strongly than the suttas. I consider the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka to be more or less the direct word of the Buddha. ------------------ OK, but I think you are in an invidious position. Who or what can you turn to when you have questions relating to the Suttanta and the Vianya? The Abhidhamma-pitaka is the only source I can think of. And the ancient commentaries must surely be the most reliable help in understanding the Abhidhamma. I will snip the rest of your reply because it hinges on the same point I have already made. In this teaching one hears and considers what the Buddha has taught. Any gaps in one's understanding are to be filled by turning to the teacher (or in our case, to the texts, and to friends who understand the texts), not to one's own reckoning. (IMHO) :-) Ken H #70226 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Apr 1, 2007 11:52 pm Subject: Bak Poya Day! bhikkhu5 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? The Bak Poya day is the full-moon of April. This holy day celebrates that the Buddha visits Ceylon for the second time to reconcile two local chiefs Mahodara and CÅ«lodara , uncle & nephew, who had fallen into war threatening hostility about a throne beset with Jewels... The story shows the Buddha as top diplomat & is given in full below! On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed white-clothed clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first 3 times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accept to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in/to this world! The journey towards NibbÄ?na: The Deathless is started! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or Uposatha Observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps also the Eight Precepts from sunrise until next dawn. If any wish official recognition by the BhikkhuSangha, they may easily forward the lines starting with "I hereby" signed by name, date, town, & country to me or join here . Public list of this new quite rapidly growing global web Saddhamma-Sangha is set up here! The New Noble Community of Buddha's Disciples: Saddhamma Sangha: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Saddhamma_Sangha.htm Can quite advantageously be Joined Here: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/sangha/Sangha_Entry.htm May your journey hereby be light, swift, and sweet. Never give up !! Bhikkhu Samahita: what.buddha.said@... For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Reuniting those divided, by bringing Harmony: Now the most compassionate Teacher, the Conqueror, rejoicing in the salvation of the whole world, when dwelling at Jetavana in the fifth year of his Buddhahood, saw that war, caused by a gem beset throne, was like to come to pass between the nagas Mahodara and CÅ«lodara , uncle and nephew and their followers! The SamBuddha , then on the uposatha day of the dark half of the month Citta, in the early morning, took his sacred alms bowl and his robes, and, out of compassion for the nagas , sought the Nagadipa . At that time the same naga Mahodara was then king, gifted with miraculous powers, in a nagas kingdom in the ocean, which covered half a 1000 yojanas. His younger sister had been given in marriage to the naga king on the Kannavaddhamana mountain; her son was CÅ«lodara . His mother’s father had given to his mother a splendid throne of jewels, then the naga had died and therefore was this war between nephew & uncle threatening! The nagas of the mountains were also armed with many miraculous powers. The deva Samiddhisumana took his rajayatana tree standing in Jetavana , his own fair habitation, holding it like a parasol over the Conqueror, he, with the Teachers leave, attended him to that spot where he had formerly dwelt. That very deva had been, in his latest birth, a man in Nagadipa . On the very spot where thereafter the rajayatana tree stood, he had seen paccekabuddhas taking their meal. And at the sight his heart was glad & he offered branches to cleanse their alms bowls. Therefore he was reborn in that very same tree in the pleasant Jetavana garden, outside of the gate rampart. The God of all gods saw in this an advantage for that deva, and, for the sake of the good which should spring therefrom for Ceylon, he brought him there together with his tree. Hovering there in midair above the battlefield, the Master, who drives away spiritual darkness, called forth dreadful darkness over the nagas! Then comforting those who were distressed by terror he once again spread light abroad. When they saw the Blessed One, they joyfully did reverence to the Masters feet. Then the Vanquisher preached to them the Dhamma that makes concord, & both nagas gladly gave up the throne to the Sage. When the Master, having alighted on the earth, had taken his place on a seat there, and had been refreshed with celestial food and drink served by the naga kings, he, the Lord, established in the three refuges and in the 8 moral precepts eighty kotis of snake-spirits, dwellers in the ocean and on the mainland. The nagaking Maniakkhika of KalyÄ?ni , maternal uncle to this naga Mahodara , who had come there to take part in the battle, and who before, at the Buddhas first coming, having heard the true Dhamma preached, had become established in the 3 refuges & in the moral duties, prayed now to the Tathagata: Great is the compassion that you have shown us here, Master! Had you not appeared we had all been consumed to ashes. May your compassion yet settle also and especially on me, you who are rich in friendly loving kindness, please peerless one come again back here to my home country. When the Lord had consented by his silence to return, then he planted the rajayatana tree on that very spot as a sacred memorial, & the Lord of the Worlds gave over the rajayatana tree & the precious throne seat to the naga kings to do homage thereto: In remembrance that I have used these do homage to them naga kings! This, well beloved, will bring to pass many blessings & happiness to you for a long time! When the Blessed One had uttered this and other exhortations to the nagas, he, compassionate saviour of the entire world, returned to the Jetavana monastery. Here ends the explanation of the Visit to Nagadipa . Source: Mahavamsa I:44. The Great Chronicle of Ceylon. Translated. By Wilhelm Geiger 1912; reprinted in 1980. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=130010I Bak Poya Day! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #70227 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 4:23 am Subject: Re: The Nature of Wisdom kelvin_lwin Hi Howard, The more I read your position about sanna vs panna, I think the ramifications of it goes beyond it. It maybe useful to think in terms of five khandas and this article: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_43.html Excerpt: A second major domain where the word sankharas applies is among the five aggregates. The fourth aggregate is the sankhara- khandha, the aggregate of volitional formations. The texts define the sankhara-khandha as the six classes of volition (cha cetanakaya): volition regarding forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile objects, and ideas. Though these sankharas correspond closely to those in the formula of dependent origination, the two are not in all respects the same, for the sankhara-khandha has a wider range. The aggregate of volitional formations comprises all kinds of volition. It includes not merely those that are kammically potent, but also those that are kammic results and those that are kammically inoperative. In the later Pali literature the sankhara-khandha becomes an umbrella category for all the factors of mind except feeling and perception, which are assigned to aggregates of their own. Thus the sankhara- khandha comes to include such ethically variable factors as contact, attention, thought, and energy; such wholesome factors as generosity, kindness, and wisdom; and such unwholesome factors as greed, hatred, and delusion. Since all these factors arise in conjunction with volition and participate in volitional activity, the early Buddhist teachers decided that the most fitting place to assign them is the aggregate of volitional formations. - Kel #70228 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 5:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Thanks for your patience. L: "...There are characteristics to some vipaka cittas that panna could use to tell whether it is kusala or akusala vipaka...Also rootless death, bhavanga, and rebirth linking can be distinguished by their objects as to kusala or akusala, and resultant fine material, immaterial, and supramundane consciousnesses can be recognized as such..." Scott: Okay, yeah. I have the CMA. In A Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, pp. 407-408: "Kaamaavacara kusala citta applies itself to daana (including giving, sharing of merit, appreciation of someone else's kusala), to siila (including morality, paying respect and helping) or to bhaavanaa (including mental development, the teaching of the Dhamma, listening to the Dhamma, and correction of one's views). Kaamaavacara kusala citta arises in the processes of the five sense-doors and of the mind-door, and, therefore, it is called mahaa-kusala... "When the eight types of kaamaavacara kusala citta arise and accomplish kusala kamma, the accompanying cetanaa (volition or intention) is kamma-condition (kamma-paccaya) for the arising of kaamaavacara kusala vipaakacitta..." Scott: It would seem that both ahetuka and sahetuka vipaakacittas relate directly to the specific kamma of which they are fruits... Survey: "There are sixteen types of results in accordance with the kamma that produces them at the appropriate time. These sixteen types of vipaakacittas are: eight types of ahetuka kusala vipaakacittas and eight types of kaamavacara sahetuka kusala vipaakacittas (mahaa-vipaakacittas)." L: "...But there doesn't seem to be any characteristics that would indicate whether eye, ear, nose, tongue, receiving, or investigating accompanied by equanimity consciousness is kusala or akusala." Scott: I think that even these must relate to kamma and are capable of differentiation based on whether cetanaa was kusala or akusala. I think there is a circularity in Dhamma, where the things that unfold are hermetically sealed by that which is Dhamma. Survey, p. 403: "A pleasant object (i.t.thaaramman.na) can have different degrees of pleasantness. It can be just a pleasant object or an extraordinarily pleasant object (adi.t.thaaramma.na). If kusala vipaakacitta is the result of kusala kamma of great purity and accompanied by pleasant feeling, it experiences an extraordinarily pleasant object, and in that case the investigation-consciousness (the santiira.na-citta), which arises in a sense-door process and considers that object, is accompanied by the kusala vipaakacittas in a sense-door process is an object that is pleasant but not extraordinarily pleasant, the investigating-consciousness is accompanied by indifferent feeling." Scott: I think that it must be possible to know, for one's self, whether a particular experience is agreeable or disagreeable. Take the rootless-wholesome-resultant described in CMA: The investigating consciousness accompanied by joy (somanassa sahagata.m santiiraa.na.m). If I'm understanding this correctly, I'd say, for example, that one would be able to know for sure when one experiences such an 'extraordinarily pleasant object' - such an agreeable moment. I'd say the characteristics would be quite clearly definable as agreeable. I'd also say that it would be impossible, at least for me, to know from whence such an experience came - that is, to know the kusala kamma that would have conditioned its arising. L: "No, kusala or akusala kamma have kusala or akusala characteristics: lobha, dosa, moha, alobha, adosa, amoha." Scott: Yes, okay. And these must lead to a corresponding vipaakacitta the agreeableness or disagreeableness of which must relate directly to the characteristic of kamma - kusala or akusala. I'd say, then, that this might be irregardless of how society defines agreeable or disagreeable. Societal categories may or may not correspond to how Dhamma defines these categories. What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. #70229 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Wisdom upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/2/07 3:15:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ken_aitch@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Ken - > > > >In a message dated 4/1/07 3:54:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >ken_aitch@... writes: > > > >>Hi Howard, > >> > >>What, in your opinion, is the value of such conjecture? To me, > the > >>straight Abhidhamma explanations seem right but, again, so what > if > >>they do? What is the value of my conjecture? > > > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > It is a considering, mulling over, contemplating, and > attempting to > >understand what is the case. My perspective is tentative. Yours > evidently is > >permanent. For you, the truth is the Abhidhamma Pitaka, engraved > not in stone or > >gold but in diamond - sacrosanct and never to be questioned. Enjoy. > >------------------------------------------- > > > Hi Howard, > > You have not understood my message properly. I was trying to describe > the anatta perspective that I think should be applied to Dhamma > study. > > From the Discourse to Kalamas, for example, we can see two categories > of people. There are those that have not yet chosen a teacher, and > there are those that have. I would be reluctant to describe myself > as one who has chosen the Buddha as my teacher. That would bring the > idea of self into Dhamma study. But I can learn the difference > between the two categories. > > I think that before choosing a teacher we rely on our own judgement > of what is real and what is not real. After choosing a teacher, we > learn his/her explanations of real and unreal, and we find out by > trial-and-error whether they were right or wrong. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Even after one has chosen one's primary or sole teacher, in realizing that one is not omniscient and may have been in error in one's choice or in error in what one took to be the teacher's teaching, one must still look and judge and measure against experence. Anything less is less than saddha, but is a blind and unworthy faith, IMO. Should a teacher in whom I have close to complete trust, as I do for the Buddha, be right in front of us teaching, I would accept that what s/he says is almost certainly correct, and I would study and contemplate it to properly understand it. Even then, though, the interpretation and understanding has to be my own, for ultimately, it will be. Now, when that teacher is long dead, and there only remain various, quite different, records of what is purported to be his/her teachings, even within the same tradition, I have to decide what makes sense and what does not - I have to which are the actual teachings and which are not. So, as I see it, taking one's own decisions out of the mix is a pipe dream. ----------------------------------------- > > Therefore, I can't see how one's own theories of "wisdom" for example > can have any relevance once a teacher has been chosen. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: You must believe you have been omniscient in your choice of teacher and teaching, and omniscient in knowing exactly what *is* the teaching and what is not. I do not so believe. I suspect certain radical Islamic extremists are quite certain of exactly what were the teachings of the Prophet and are certain of what commentaries provide the correct interpretations of his teachings. What is certainty, Ken? If one is certain, must one be correct? When is it time to say "I need no longer consider what is what, but merely accept!"? ----------------------------------------- If there is > > doubt as to what is meant by wisdom then all we can do is to ask for > clarification. To make suggestions of our devising is not a part of > the student/teacher way of doing things (as I see it). ------------------------------------------- Howard: A reading of the suttas leaves open more than one interpretation, or at least it seems to. My tentatively considered interpretation that wisdom is undefiled cognitive functioning appears to be quite compatible with sutta teachings on wisdom, and it was an attempt at understanding. It may not be correct. It represents a stage in my working with the teachings on wisdom. Nina pointed out things that gave me pause in this, and I think that it is quite possible that, in fact, as the Abhidhamma indicates, wisdom is a faculty its own - a special, distinct operation. But while the discusion with Nina served to expand my consideration of this matter, never in a thouand years would an argument from authority of person or document serve to do so. -------------------------------------------- > > ----------------- > KH: >>According to the texts, wise consideration of the Buddha's > teaching > >leads to enlightenment. There is no mention of wisely considering > >one's own teachings (or theories). > > Howard: > > My considerations are an attempt to understand the Dhamma as taught in > the suttas. I consider the Abhidhamma Pitaka to be a later > compilation and summarization of the Buddha's teachings. I view it as > open to questioning more strongly than the suttas. I consider the > Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka to be more or less the direct word of > the Buddha. > ------------------ > > OK, but I think you are in an invidious position. Who or what can you > turn to when you have questions relating to the Suttanta and the > Vianya? The Abhidhamma-pitaka is the only source I can think of. And > the ancient commentaries must surely be the most reliable help in > understanding the Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Whether you realize it or not, ultimately we, each of us, can only turn to our own understanding and experience. --------------------------------------- > > I will snip the rest of your reply because it hinges on the same > point I have already made. In this teaching one hears and considers > what the Buddha has taught. Any gaps in one's understanding are to be > filled by turning to the teacher (or in our case, to the texts, and > to friends who understand the texts), not to one's own reckoning. > (IMHO) :-) > > Ken H > ======================= With metta, Howard #70230 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 5:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry nilovg Dear Ken H, I looked at the Co. to M III, 143, about Anaathapindika I have in Thai. It is like you said. We read that he had not heard a dhamma talk like this. It is asked whether the Teacher does not give such a detailed, deep talk. The answer is that this is not so. He does. But usually layfollowers do not hear a talk on the six inner aayatanas, the six outer aayatanas, six groups of consciousness, of contacts, of feelings, six elements, five khandhas, four stages of aruupa [jhaana], this world and the world beyond. Nor on not clinging by the arahat to what is seen through the eye, and experienced through the other doorways. We read about another reason: this layfollower was very fond of daana. He never went empty handed to the Buddha's dwelling place. The Buddha gave him talks on daana and said that this was the Path of Bodhisattas, and that he himself had accumulated daana for four incalculable periods and hundred thousand aeons. Laypeople are attached to possessions, gold, their family. He would not say: do not cling to these things. Laypeople would not appreciate to hear this. N: The Buddha would not tell householders not to cling to their possessions. Anaathapindika did not take clinging for self, he was a sotaapanna. When clinging arises it can be studied with awareness and right understanding. Pa~n~naa has to be developed on and on until arahatship is reached. Nina. Op 2-apr-2007, om 2:39 heeft ken_aitch het volgende geschreven: > In the sutta, Sariputta says, "This sort of > talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in > white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth." > And Anaathapindika replies, "In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please > let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in > white." > > I notice that the talk in question was not about overcoming wrong > view; it was about overcoming clinging. That's why I thought it was > one specifically tailored to the needs of an *ariyan* learner. #70231 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Wisdom upasaka_howard Hi, Kel - I thank you for your reply. I'm afraid, though, that I don't quite follow the point that you are making with regard to Bhikkhu Bodhi's article and its relation to the nature of wisdom. Could you please clarify a bit? Thanks. With metta, Howard #70232 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Rupas Ch 6, no 1 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 6. Intimation through Body and Speech Citta is one of the four factors that produces rúpa. We look different when we laugh, when we cry, when we are angry or when we are generous. Then we can notice that citta produces rúpa. Bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti) and speech intimation (vacíviññatti) are two kinds of rúpa, originated by citta. They are not produced by the other three factors that can produce rúpa, by kamma, temperature or nutrition. As to bodily intimation, this is movement of the body, of the limbs, facial movement or gestures which display our intentions, be they wholesome or unwholesome. The intention expressed through bodily intimation can be understood by others, even by animals. Bodily intimation itself is rúpa, it does not know anything. We read in the “Dhammasangaùi” (§ 636): What is that rúpa which is bodily intimation (kåyaviññatti)? That tension, that intentness, that state of making the body tense, in response to a thought, whether good or bad, or indeterminate (kiriyacitta), on the part of one who advances, or recedes, or fixes the gaze, or glances around, or retracts an arm, or stretches it forth - the intimation, the making known, the state of having made known - this is that rúpa which constitutes bodily intimation. According to the “Atthasåliní” (I, Book I, Part III, 82, 83), in the case of bodily intimation citta produces the “eight inseparable rúpas” [1 ] and among them the element of air (wind, oscillation or motion) plays its specific part in supporting the body and strengthen the postures. We read: ... But there is a certain peculiar, unique mode of change in the primaries (four Great Elements) when set up by mind, through which, as a condition, mobility (the element of wind or motion) is able to strengthen, support and agitate the coexistent body. This is intimation. ... Because it is a capacity of communicating, it is called “intimation”. What does it communicate? A certain wish communicable by an act of the body. If anyone stands in the path of the eye, raises his hands or feet, shakes his head or brow, the movement of his hands, etc. are visible. Intimation, however, is not so visible; it is only knowable by the mind. For one sees by the eye a colour-surface moving by virtue of the change of position in hands, etc. 2. But by reflecting on it as intimation, one knows it by mind- door-consciousness, thus: “I imagine that this man wishes me to do this or that act.”... --------- footnote 1: The four Great Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion, and visible object, odour, flavour and nutrition. ******* Nina. #70233 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 6:27 am Subject: Letters on VIpassana 11, no 9 nilovg Dear friends, Some people want to concentrate on rúpas of the body. By focussing on one point of the body they believe that they can notice the rúpa which is bodysense. The bodysense is all over the body but when tangible object impinges on the rúpa which is bodysense, it does so only on one point. That extremely small particle is then the rúpa which is the physical base for body-consciousness, and it is also the doorway through which tangible object is experienced. When a rúpa like heat or hardness is impinging on the bodysense it can hurt and painful feeling arises. But can we directly experience the rúpa which is the bodydoor, arising and falling away where there is impingement at that moment? It falls away immediately. It is useless to try to find out where the impingement was. Then we continue to think of realities and there is no awareness of other realities which present themselves, such as seeing or visible object. We cannot help it that we think of the part of the body which hurts, but we should know that this is only thinking, a conditioned reality. If one tries to focus on one part of the body, one should ask oneself, what about this moment? If we are aware of what appears at this moment there is only that dhamma, and there is no need to find out where there is impingement on the bodysense. Khun Sujin explained that one does not own anything: “One thinks of one’s whole body and of one’s possessions as belonging to oneself, but there isn’t anything one owns, not even visible object in this room. It arises, appears and falls away. The succession of different rúpas which are visible object conditions the concept of ‘something’. We can see how fast citta arises and falls away, it can lure us like a magician. If we do not know this there is ‘I’ and ‘mine’ all the time. Does sound belong to anyone? If it is your voice, does it belong to you? Visible object is just a rúpa out of twentyeight rúpas. It is the only reality that can be seen. We find our thoughts about visible object so important, but visible object is only a kind of rúpa. When one has understanding of visible object and of thinking, one sees the difference between the absolute truth and the conventional truth. One knows how and when conventional truth begins.“ When we have more understanding of the difference between seeing and paying attention to shape and form, it will be clearer when the object of citta is just one reality, appearing through one of the six doors, and when the object is a concept. In the absolute sense there is no owner of anything, but does it then make sense to try to acquire possessions? There was a discussion about this topic in the house of our friends Ivan and Ell. Ivan used to think that when one contemplates Dhamma one should have fewness of wishes. Then there is no need to expand one’s business in order to make more money. Now he understands that satipatthåna should be developed in a natural way, that one should not try to change one’s life style. If one is a layman one should not try to live the monk’s life, a life of contentment with little. ********* Nina. #70234 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 6:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (11), Tevijja. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Connie & all, Half an hour before our very late departure.... --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah and Connie, > usually to the ti-vijja: remembrance of former lives, knowledge of > passing away and rebirth of beings, destruction of the cankers. See > M, no 71; Tevijja Vacchagottasutta. ... S: I meant to thank you for the reference ages ago. Also interesting is the reference in the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation to the abandoning of the fetter of householdship and the commentary reference given. No time to type out... What else in passing? Therii Jentaa (#68110) who became an arahant while listening to the Buddha. But, "it is through seeing the noble Doctrine that the Buddha, the Blessed Ones and other noble ones are seen, not through the mere seeing of their physical body. As it is, 'Indeed Vakkali.....' etc " ... Also, it was Pa.taacaaraa (as in the recent series) who helped Uttamaa (#68641), 'the perfecter of the true goal' who taught all there was to know on the Dhamma, khandhas, ayatanas, dhatus etc Oh, must dash... Thx for Vessantara and the earthquakes.....a Tsunami today in the Soloman's but I doubt it was because of some earth-shattering-quaking dana...must be the first cause, don't you think? Any more controversial Milinda tales?? Will drop in when I can... Metta, Sarah ======== #70235 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 4:49 am Subject: Wisdom as the Faculty that Cuts Off the Defilements upasaka_howard Hi, all - Wisdom is declared by the Buddha in the suttas as one of the five faculties. For example, he teaches in the Indriya Samyutta "There are these five faculties, monks: the faculty of faith, the faculty of vigor, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration and the faculty of wisdom." Also, in numerous suttas in the Indriya Samyutta, he describes wisdom as the chief faculty for awakening. (Oddly, wisdom isn't included among the seven awakening factors, but each of the seven is said to be conducive to perfect understanding, and thus pa~n~na is viewed as even beyond them.) A source for viewing wisdom as a sword that cuts off the defilements is the Milindapanha. There is the following part of a conversation between King Milinda and Ven. Nagasena: <> I wonder whether anyone here has a reference for a *sutta* that gives the metaphor of the sword or sickle of wisdom? With metta, Howard #70236 From: connie Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 9:17 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) nichiconn Dear Friends, In case anyone else is counting, this makes eleven for Pa.taacaaraa, "daughter of a se.t.thi of Savatthi, wife of her father's servant, foremost of the Sisters who were proficient in the Vinaya (Ang. Nik., i. 25), an eminent teacher and leader" (RD). enjoy, connie Tattha kasanti kasantaa kasikamma.m karontaa. Bahutthe hi ida.m ekavacana.m. Pavapanti biijaani vapantaa. Chamaati chamaaya.m. Bhummatthe hi ida.m paccattavacana.m. Aya~nhettha sa"nkhepattho- ime maa.navaa sattaa na"ngalehi phaalehi khetta.m kasantaa yathaadhippaaya.m khettabhuumiya.m pubba.n.naapara.n.nabhedaani biijaani vapantaa ta.mhetu ta.mnimitta.m attaana.m puttadaaraadiini posentaa hutvaa dhana.m pa.tilabhanti. Eva.m imasmi.m loke yoniso payutto paccattapurisakaaro naama saphalo sa-udayo. 112. There, ploughing (kasa.m) means: ploughing (kasantaa), those doing the work of ploughing (kasi-kamma.m karontaa). This is a singular in the sense of the plural. Sowing (pavapa.m) means: sowing (vapantaa) seeds. In the ground (chamaa) means: in the ground (chamaa-ya.m), for this is a nominative in the sense of a locative case. Here is the meaning of this in brief: these beings, [these] young brahmana, ploughing the fields with ploughs (na"ngalehi = phaalehi), which is for the purpose of sowing the seeds of grain and vegetables in the ground in the field, and the reason for that, the result of that being nourishing themselves and wives and children and so on, they obtain wealth. Thus in this world, an individual man's action bears fruit and is profitable. Tattha kimaha.m siilasampannaa, satthusaasanakaarikaa. Nibbaana.m naadhigacchaami, akusiitaa anuddhataati aha.m suvisuddhasiilaa aaraddhaviiriyataaya akusiitaa ajjhatta.m susamaahitacittataaya anuddhataa ca hutvaa catusaccakamma.t.thaanabhaavanaasa"nkhaata.m satthu saasana.m karontii kasmaa nibbaana.m naadhigacchaami, adhigamissaami evaati. 113. There, Why do I, possessed of virtuous conduct (siila-sam-pannaa), complying with the teaching of the Teacher (satthu saasana-kaarikaa), not obtain quenching? I am not slack, nor puffed up means: I have pure virtuous conduct (suvisuddha-siilaa); [I] am not slack because I made an effort; [I] am not puffed up because my mind is well concentrated internally. Since I accomplish the teaching of the Teacher (satthu saasana.m karonti) called the development of the meditation on the four truths, how could I not obtain quenching? I shall obtain it. Eva.m pana cintetvaa vipassanaaya kamma.m karontii ekadivasa.m paadadhovana-udake nimitta.m ga.nhi. Tenaaha "paade pakkhaalayitvaanaa"ti-aadi Tassattho- aha.m paade dhovantii paadapakkhaalanahetu tikkhattu.m aasittesu udakesu thalato ninnamaagata.m paadodaka.m disvaa nimitta.m karomi. 114. And thinking thus, she devoted herself to the gaining of insight. One day she took the water for washing her feet as her sign. Therefore she says, I washed my feet, and so on. The meaning of this is: while washing my feet, when the water had been poured out three times in order to wash my feet, I saw the foot water come flowing downhill from the high land to the low land, and I made that my sign. "Yathaa ida.m udaka.m khayadhamma.m vayadhamma.m, eva.m sattaana.m aayusa"nkhaaraa"ti eva.m aniccalakkha.na.m, tadanusaarena dukkhalakkha.na.m, anattalakkha.na~nca upadhaaretvaa vipassana.m va.d.dhentii tato citta.m samaadhesi.m, assa.m bhadra.mvajaaniyanti yathaa assa.m bhadra.m aajaaniya.m kusalo saarathi sukhena saareti, eva.m mayha.m citta.m sukheneva samaadhesi.m, vipassanaasamaadhinaa samaahita.m akaasi.m. Eva.m pana vipassana.m va.d.dhentii utusappaayanijigisaaya ovaraka.m pavisantii andhakaaravidhamanattha.m diipa.m gahetvaa gabbha.m pavisitvaa diipa.m .thapetvaa ma~ncake nisinnamattaava diipa.m vijjhaapetu.m agga.lasuuciyaa diipava.t.ti.m aaka.d.dhi.m, taavadeva utusappaayalaabhena tassaa citta.m samaahita.m ahosi, vipassanaaviithi.m otari, maggena gha.t.tesi. Tato maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa sabbaso aasavaana.m khayo ahosi. Tena vutta.m- "tato diipa.m gahetvaana…pe… vimokkho ahu cetaso"ti. Tattha seyya.m olokayitvaanaati diipaalokena seyya.m passitvaa. 115. I thought to myself, "Just as this water is subject to the phenomenon of destruction and to the phenomenon of disappearance, so too are the life-forming elements for beings." Thus, I observed the characteristics of impermanence and as a consequence of that the characteristics of misery and no-self, and I increased my insight. Then I concentrated my mind, like a noble thoroughbread (ajaaniya.m) horse means: just as a skilled charioteer makes a noble thoroughbred (aajaaniya.m) horse run with ease, I concentrated my mind with ease; I composed it by means of concentration and insight. And after increasing my my insight thus and desiring suitable surroundings, I entered my cell and took a lamp to dispel the darkness. I put down the lamp after entering the room and pulled out the lamp wich with the pin for securing the door bolt in order to extinguish the lamp when I was on the point of sitting down. Immediately upon obtaining suitable surroundings, her mind became composed. She entered the road of insight and struck out on the path. Then through the paths, one after the other, there came about the destruction of all her taints. Therefore she said: Then I took a lamp ... The liberation of my mind [was like the quenching of the lamp]. There, I inspected the bed means: looking at the bed with the light of the lamp. Suucinti agga.lasuuci.m. Va.t.ti.m okassayaamiiti diipa.m vijjhaapetu.m telaabhimukha.m diipava.t.ti.m aaka.d.dhemi. Vimokkhoti kilesehi vimokkho. So pana yasmaa paramatthato cittassa santati, tasmaa vutta.m "cetaso"ti. Yathaa pana va.t.titelaadike paccaye sati uppajjanaaraho padiipo tadabhaave anuppajjanato nibbutoti vuccati, eva.m kilesaadipaccaye sati uppajjanaaraha.m citta.m tadabhaave anuppajjanato vimuttanti vuccatiiti aaha- "padiipasseva nibbaana.m, vimokkho ahu cetaso"ti. Pa.taacaaraatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 116. A needle (suuci.m) means: a pin for securing the door bolt (agga.la suuci.m). I drew out the wick (va.t.ti.m) means: in order to extinguish the lamp, I pulled the lamp wick (va.t.ti.m) which had one end in the oil towards me. Liberation means: liberation from the defilements. But since it is [in reference to] the continuity of the mind in the highest sense, she therefore says: of my mind. But it is said that when there are conditions such as a wick, oil, etc, the lamp is ready to work (uppajjanaaraho), while in the absence of these, it is quenched and does not come into existence. Thus it is said that when mindfulness is grounded in the defilements, etc, the mind is deserving of rebirth, [but] in the absence of these, it is free through not coming into existence. So she says, The liberation of my mind was like the quenching of the lamp. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Pa.taacaaraa. #70237 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) bhavana moellerdieter Dear Nina (and friends), thanks for your nice feedback! I am pleased to meet you and like to use the opportunity to express my admiration for your Dhamma contributions and efforts for the understanding of 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' . Years ago , Robert ( Hi Robert ! ;-) ) was so kind to send me your book ... I was impressed and can imagine , how much work must be involved to write about such complex matter and suppose you received a lot of positive (critical one's too`?) responses. On my part, I have to admit that I did not manage to study it in detail , with several reasons to explain my lack of motivation ( possibly a bit of laziness too ;-), however not at least by assuming , that we all have a very individual approach to the Dhamma . In fact there are many suttas describing different types of students. Nevertheless I would be very glad to exchange views on this or that topic and perhaps may achieve a 'closer contact ' with the Abhidhamma. But back to bhavana........ refering to your mail , I believe we agree that there seems to be no clear A. definition - unlike many other terms. Hence in general - understood as mental development/cultivation - it may fit to all parts of the Noble Path and so I rest my question .. ;-) looking forward to having further pleasant conversations .. with Metta Dieter #70238 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) bhavana upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter! In a message dated 4/2/07 1:00:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: > Dear Nina (and friends), ======================== As one of the "friends", both a friend of DSG and a personal cyber-friend of yours of longstanding, it's pleasant to greet you here and to see you posting here. I look forward to adding discussions on DSG to our frequent offlist conversations. :-) With metta, Howard #70239 From: connie Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 11:03 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner nichiconn Dear Han, All, Just adding to the corner, from The Path of Purity, ch.VII-Exposition of the six recollections, #V: Whoso wishes to develop the liberality-recollection should make a constant gift to another, or share with another whatever is reserved for himself, with an habitual intentness. Or again, in striving for culture he should make resolve thus: – from now onwards, so long as there is anyone to receive it, I will not eat without making a gift, even though it may be just a ladleful of food. Should there be on that day anyone of distinguished merit to receive his gifts, he should, according to his power and ability, give and share such. And grasping the sign therein, he should in seclusion and solitude recall his own liberality by way of the virtues of freedom from the taint of stinginess and so on, thus: – "It is indeed a gain to me, verily a great gain to me, that I, among a race oppressed by the taint of stinginess, live with mind freed from the taint of stinginess, generous, clean of hands, delighting in giving away, accessible to begging, delighting in giving and sharing." {A"nguttara iii, 313.} Herein, "It is indeed a gain to me" means, to me indeed are gains such as have been praised as gains to the giver by the Blessed One on this wise: – By giving life one partakes of life divine or human; The giver is dear; many resort to him; and One who gives is dear; he follows the custom of the good. The meaning is, They are my portions undoubtedly. Verily a great gain to me – this religion or manhood that I have attained ... that is verily a great gain to me. Why? In that I, among a race oppressed by the taint of stinginess, live ... delighting in giving and sharing. Herein: – "Oppressed by the taint of stinginess" means overpowered by the taint of stinginess. "Among a race" – that is, beings are so called by virtue of begetting. Therefore the meaning here is, among beings overpowered by the taint of stinginess which is one of the dark states, destroying the radiance of the mind by its characteristic of not being able to share in common with others what one has acquired. "Freed from the taint of stinginess" means freed from other taints also, such as lust and hate, as well as from the taint of stinginess. "I live with mind": – the meaning is, I abide with a mind of the kind described. [224] But in the Suttas {A"nguttara Nikaaya iii, 284} it is said, "I live in a house," since it has been pointed out as a dependable state to Mahaanaama Sakka, when being a Stream-winner, he was enquiring after a dependable state. Here the meaning is, I live as having overcome. "Free in liberality" means of unrestrained liberality. "Clean of hands" means of purified hands. It is said, he washes his hands always to give gifts respectfully with his own hands. "Delighting in giving away": – the handing over, giving away; full liberality is the meaning. Delight by way of a constant effort in that giving away is "delighting in giving away." "Accessible to begging": – because he gives whatever others ask, he is accessible to requests, is the meaning. The reading also is yaajayogo, meaning that he is devoted to offerings called the giving of alms. "Delighting in giving and sharing": – I delight in giving and sharing. For I give alms and make a share of what is for my own personal enjoyment. I delight in both. That he thus recalls is here the meaning. Thus when he recalls his own liberality that it has such qualities as being freed from the taint of stinginess, his mind then is not invaded by lust, nor by hate, nor by delusion, but is upright with reference to his liberality. When he has by this first method discarded the hindrances, the Jhaana-factors arise in one and the same moment. But from the depth of the qualities of his liberality, or from the intentness with which he recalls them, various as they are, the Jhaana, without attaining to ecstasy, attains only to access. This Jhaana goes under the name of recollection of liberality, since it arises by way of recalling the qualities of liberality. And the monk who applies himself to the recollection of liberality is all the more intent on liberality, has desires free from covetousness, behaves in conformity with love, has confidence, is abundantly rapturous and joyful, and is bound, even if he penetrates no farther, for a happy journey. Lo! let the wise ponder earnestly The mighty thought of generosity. This is the substance of the detailed discourse on the Liberality-recollection. ============== peace, connie #70240 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 11:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wisdom as the Faculty that Cuts Off the Defilements nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for the passage about the sword amd the cutting of barley. I found something in the Book of Analysis, para 525 (p. 326) where different synonyms of sampaja~n~na (here translated as awareness) are given: Yes, wisdom is among the sambhojjhangas: dhamma vicaya: investigation of dhamma. These factors have to be developed for the attainment of enlightenment. The dhamma appearing at the present moment has to be investigated over and over again. The other bhojjhangas assist investigation of dhamma. Nina. Op 2-apr-2007, om 18:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > (Oddly, wisdom isn't included among the seven awakening > factors, #70241 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 11:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Wisdom kelvin_lwin Hi Howard, As in your recent post, wisdom is an active faculity and even an indriya which has the power to lead. According to BB's argument, such active volitional things must belong to sankhara-khanda and cannot be function of sanna-khanda. - Kel #70242 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) bhavana moellerdieter Dear Howard (and friends), thanks for this kind wellcome to DSG, a group which obviously has managed to keep a high quality profile not only by the topics discussed but by the way the members are communicating with eachother ...hence I understand your long time loyalty for the list.. ;-) I shall be active in case of recognizing a possibility to contribute for understanding in ongoing discussions ... with Metta Dieter #70243 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 8:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Wisdom upasaka_howard Hi, Kel - In a message dated 4/2/07 2:22:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kelvin_lwin@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > As in your recent post, wisdom is an active faculity and even an > indriya which has the power to lead. According to BB's argument, such > active volitional things must belong to sankhara-khanda and cannot be > function of sanna-khanda. > > - Kel > ======================= Yes, thanks, I now get your point. My other perspective, however, which I am now basically abandoning, was not identifying wisdom with proper sa~n~na, but was the view that the term 'wisdom' refered not to a cetasika, but to proper functioning of any all cognitive operations. I do now think it is clear that the Buddha taught wisdom to be a distinct nama, and, yes, it would be in he sankharakkhanda. With metta, Howard #70244 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 8:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wisdom as the Faculty that Cuts Off the Defilements upasaka_howard In a message dated 4/2/07 2:14:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > thank you for the passage about the sword amd the cutting of barley. > I found something in the Book of Analysis, para 525 (p. 326) where > different synonyms of sampaja~n~na (here translated as awareness) are > given: wisdom, tower of wisdom, light of wisdom, lustre of wisdom, splendour > of wisdom...> > Yes, wisdom is among the sambhojjhangas: dhamma vicaya: investigation > of dhamma. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that identifying investigation of dhammas with wisdom is uncertain. It is a factor that *leads* to wisdom - all seven are said to be *conducive* to perfect understanding. From SN 46.14 there is the following: "These seven factors of enlightenment, verily, Kassapa, are well expounded by me, cultivated and much developed by me, and when cultivated and much developed they conduce to full realization, perfect wisdom, to Nibbana." If "investigation of dhammas" were to refer exactly to wisdom, it would then make no sense to say that investigation of dhammas conduces to wisdom. I also recall that somewhere Bhikkhu Bodhi, I think it was he, in fact commented on wisdom not being one of the seven. Certainly investigation of dhammas is very close to wisdom, perhaps even describable as the doorway to wisdom, but it seems unlikely they would be the same. --------------------------------------------------- These factors have to be developed for the attainment of > > enlightenment. The dhamma appearing at the present moment has to be > investigated over and over again. The other bhojjhangas assist > investigation of dhamma. > Nina. > Op 2-apr-2007, om 18:13 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >(Oddly, wisdom isn't included among the seven awakening > >factors, > ======================= With metta, Howard #70245 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 9:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wisdom as the Faculty that Cuts Off the Defilements upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 4/2/07 3:59:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > In a message dated 4/2/07 2:14:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > ======================= Sorry for having missed the salutation, Nina! :-) With metta, Howard #70246 From: connie Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 1:32 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (11), Tevijja. nichiconn Dear Milinda Enthusiasts, Nina: usually to the ti-vijja: remembrance of former lives, knowledge of passing away and rebirth of beings, destruction of the cankers. See M, no 71; Tevijja Vacchagottasutta. ... Sarah: I meant to thank you for the reference ages ago. Also interesting is the reference in the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation to the abandoning of the fetter of householdship and the commentary reference given. No time to type out... ... Connie: No plane to catch here, so (possibly relevant to your 'wisdom' question too, Howard?) -- Buddha has denied that "knowledge and vision are continuously and uninterruptedly present" and told Vaccha about the ti-vijja... then, Vaccha asks "is there any householder who, without abandoning the fetter of householdership, on the dissolution of the body has made an end to suffering?" The Buddha answers No. the note in question reads: << MA explains "the fetter of householdership" (gihisa.myojana) as attachment to the requisites of a householder, which M.T details as land, ornaments, wealth, grain, etc. MA says that even though the texts mention some individuals who attainted arahantship as laymen, by the path of arahantship they destroyed all attachment to worldly things and thus either went forth as monks or passed away immediately after their attainment. The question of lay arahants is discussed at Miln 264. >> thus: DILEMMA THE FIFTY-FOURTH. IS IT MORE ADVANTAGEOUS TO BE A LAYMAN, OR TO ENTER THE ORDER? {www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3604.htm} 16. 'Venerable Nagasena, it was said by the Blessed One: "I would magnify, O brethren, the Supreme Attainment either in a layman or in a recluse. Whether he be a layman, O brethren, or a recluse, the man who has reached the Supreme Attainment shall overcome all the difficulties inherent therein, shall win his way even to the excellent condition of Arahatship." 'Now, Nagasena, if a layman, clad in white robes, enjoying the pleasures of sense, dwelling in a habitation encumbered with wife and children, of garlands and perfumes and unguents, accepting gold and silver, wearing a turban inlaid with jewels and gold, can, having reached the Supreme Attainment, win his way to the excellent condition of Arahatship--and if a recluse, with his shaven head and yellow robes, dependent for his livelihood on the alms of other men, perfectly fulfilling the fourfold code of morality, taking upon himself and carrying out the hundred and fifty precepts, conducting himself according to the thirteen extra vows without omitting any one of them, can also, having reached the Supreme Attainment, win his way to the excellent condition of Arahatship--then, Sir, what is the distinction between the layman and the recluse? Your austerity is without effect, your renunciation is useless, your observance of the precepts is barren, your taking of the extra vows is vain. What is the good of your therein heaping up woes to yourselves, if thus in comfort the condition of bliss can be reached?' 17. 'The words you ascribe to the Blessed One, O king, are rightly quoted. And that is even so. It is the man who has reached to the Supreme Attainment who bears the palm. If the recluse, O king, because he knows that he is a recluse, should neglect the Attainments, then is he far from the fruits of renunciation, far from Arahatship--how much more if a layman, still wearing the habit of the world, should do so! But whether he be a layman, O king, or a recluse, he who attains to the supreme insight, to the supreme conduct of life, he too will win his way to the excellent condition of Arahatship. 18. 'But nevertheless, O king, it is the recluse who is the lord and master of the fruit of renunciation. And renunciation of the world, O king, is full of gain, many and immeasurable are its advantages, its profit can no man calculate. Just, O king, as no man can put a measure, in wealth, on the value of a wish-conferring gem, saying: "Such and such is the price of the gem"--just so, O king, is the renunciation of the world full of gain, many and immeasurable are its advantages, its profit can no man calculate--no more, O king, than he could count the number of the waves in the great ocean, and say: "So and so many are the waves in the sea!" 19. 'Whatsoever the recluse, O king, may have yet to do, all that doth he accomplish straightway, without delay. And why is that? The recluse, O king, is content with little, joyful in heart, detached from the world, apart from society, earnest in zeal, without a home, without a dwelling-place, righteous in conduct, in action without guile, skilled in duty and in the attainments--that is why whatsoever may lie before him yet to do, that can he accomplish straightway, without delay--just as, the flight of your javelin, O king, is rapid because it is of pure metal, smooth, and burnished, and straight, and without a stain.' 'Very good, Nagasena! That is so, and I accept it as you say.' [Here ends the dilemma as to the recluse having no advantages over the layman.] === peace, connie ps, sarah... about tsunamis and people swallowed up in cracks and all, if we're going to say those events are "mighty" earthquakes, I'd rather they were from the second cause than the first, which makes me think of "the end" days. also, the next sisters (48) are 30 of Patacara's "disciples", uh, 'students'? uh.... ;) #70247 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 2:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner hantun1 Dear Connie, Thank you very much for providing additional information by quoting The Path of Purity, ch.VII-Exposition of the six recollections, (5) Recollection on generosity. Respectfully, Han --- connie wrote: > Dear Han, All, > Just adding to the corner, from The Path of Purity, > ch.VII-Exposition of > the six recollections, #V: > #70248 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 12:55 pm Subject: A Meditation Tip upasaka_howard Hi, all - I discovered a technique today that was helpful to me, and so I'm passing it on to those here who meditate on the off-chance that it will be useful for you as well. Most of the time that I meditate (I meditate on the breath), it is the case that within a few minutes of meditating, there arises a pleasant sensation throughout the body (noticed at first in the arms and legs), at which point I expand my attention to that sensation and to the body as a whole, permitting that sensation to suffuse the entire body; with that, the meditation deepens noticeably and becomes effortless. This is most of the time, but not all the time. There is an occasional sitting at which I just can't "get into it". This evening was one of those infrequent "difficult" times. After 5 to 7 minutes, the meditation was still quite superficial, the attention was poor, and instead of ease there was aversion and a strong desire to call it quits. But I resisted that inclination, and instead I "tried something": I paid attention to the nature of what was arising, specifically noting and distinguishing what was mental (nama) from what was physical (rupa), even to the extent of distinguishing speech sound as mere sound (rupa) from that sound observed as speech (nama). Very shortly, this observing became very, very *interesting*. With the increased interest came an increase in energy. At that point, aversion was replaced by a growing ease and joy, the usual pleasant bodily sensation arose, the meditation deepened and then proceeded as usual. So, it seems that the process of attending to the nama/rupa distinction was a skillful means that paid off, at least for me, and at least on that occasion. With metta, Howard #70249 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 5:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip hantun1 Dear Howard, Thank you very much for your wonderful meditation tip. I also meditate on the breath. My chief obstacle is the stray thoughts coming in, or you might say the mind wandering off. On such occasions, I moderate the breathing (against the teachings!) closing up the gap between the end of out-breath and the beginning of in-breath, by exhaling gently to the full until the lungs are empty. While concentrating on this ‘entire breath’, I could prevent the stray thoughts coming in. For the short period of time that I succeed in doing so, I have that sensation of physical and mental calm. Maybe what I just describe is more on samatha than on vipassanaa. I think your approach is far better than mine, and I will try to follow your example. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #70250 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 5:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, I think we are mostly in agreement. But I would like to comment on one point: L: "But there doesn't seem to be any characteristics that would indicate whether eye, ear, nose, tongue, receiving, or investigating accompanied by equanimity consciousness is kusala or akusala." Scott: "I think that even these must relate to kamma and are capable of differentiation based on whether cetanaa was kusala or akusala. I think there is a circularity in Dhamma, where the things that unfold are hermetically sealed by that which is Dhamma. Survey, p. 403: "A pleasant object (i.t.thaaramman.na) can have different degrees of pleasantness. It can be just a pleasant object or an extraordinarily pleasant object (adi.t.thaaramma.na). If kusala vipaakacitta is the result of kusala kamma of great purity and accompanied by pleasant feeling, it experiences an extraordinarily pleasant object, and in that case the investigation-consciousness (the santiira.na-citta), which arises in a sense-door process and considers that object, is accompanied by pleasant feeling. If the object experienced by the kusala vipaakacittas in a sense-door process is an object that is pleasant but not extraordinarily pleasant, the investigating-consciousness is accompanied by indifferent feeling." L: Here "pleasant" etc. is what we were calling "desirable" etc. Notice that investigating consciousness accompanied by indifferent feeling can be either kusala or akusala vipaka citta. There is no way to differentiate the two by paramattha dhammas. The same for objects of eye, ear, nose, and tongue consciousness. There are obviously desirable and undesirable visible data but how do we distinguish the two. One answer: conventional values. Larry #70251 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 5:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, A minor correction: L: "Here "pleasant" etc. is what we were calling "desirable" etc." L: "Desirable" should be "agreeable". Larry #70252 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 6:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable ken_aitch Hi Scott, ------- <. . .> S: Any further thoughts? ------- Since you ask, there are one or two: We were discussing agreeable and disagreeable rupas, wholesome and unwholesome kammas, and purely functional kiriyacittas. I made an observation that may have been incorrect and misleading. I suggested that that kiriya-cittas - in particular votthapana-citta (the one that determines whether the javanas will be wholesome or unwholesome) - depended on accumulations. I think it would have been safer to say it depended on conditions. I think, on reflection, that only the javana-cittas depend on accumulations. (I dimly remember that Sarah has patiently explained this to me once or twice.) ------------- S: > Its hard to articulate exactly what differentiates a moment of vipaaka and its quality from experience deriving from impulsion. I think learning precisely how this is theoretically creates 'mental space' which can facilitate real 'learning'. -------------- Yes. Mind you, we can have wrong motivations in learning these things. I remember years ago someone on DSG saying that votthapana-citta was the self. He was joking, no doubt, but I think there can be an underlying tendency in all this citta-vithi study to be looking for a magic moment in which freewill (and the self) arises. We are often told on DSG, that it is more important to know nama from rupa than it is to know kusala from akusala. No doubt the same applies to knowing javana from vipaka. Knowing nama from rupa comes first! ------------------------- <. . .> S: > Like, if every initial instance of experience in the five sense-doors is vipaaka, then this is the meaning of being in this realm of existence. Over and over again each waking moment is patterned in a way after the first patisandhi-citta of the current existence. And, while we sleep, every bhavanga-citta is anchored to the last moment of the existence just past (which conditioned the patisandhi-citta) and, I guess for humans, is kusala. Corrections welcome, please, as the above is my conjecture - I don't know for sure about this. ------------------------- That's a tricky one. I am probably not quite getting the point you are making. This [human] realm of existence is experienced by virtue of kusala. But not every vipaka-citta in this realm is the result of kusala kamma. But you know that, and I am missing the point for sure. Ken H #70253 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 7:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry ken_aitch Hi Scott (and Han), ------- Scott: I'm not likely going to articulate this well: Can it be said that if one finds oneself 'doing' or 'practising' - given that this 'doing' is conditioned by Right Understanding - that this is bhaavanaa? In other words, effort arises which conditions citta, which conditions a series of cittaa, I guess, including various mind-produced ruupaa (speech and bodily intimations) which can be mistaken for 'practise' done by someone? Yet mental development continues. If that makes sense at all... ------- You say, "given that this `doing' is conditioned by Right Understanding," but I don't think that can ever be given, can it? Doing (carrying out a course of action) is a concept, and is recognised only in the conventionally known world. Concepts, being mere illusions, are neither conditioned nor not conditioned. Therefore, they cannot be bhavana, which is conditioned. I agree that certain concepts tend to be associated with certain conditioned dhammas. For example, when there is dana there is often the concept of a gift being handed from one person to another. But that concept has no substance of its own. It could mean anything. I think you are holding out an olive branch trying to unite the formal meditators with the no-controllers. That's very kind, I am sure, but it won't wash. :-) Ken H #70254 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 10:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry rjkjp1 > Dear Ken Do you think there can be dana without any giving, or is dana a concept also? Robert > #70255 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) bhavana nilovg Dear Dieter, thank you for your kind post. The moderators are away for several weeks. Sarah usually asks newcomers to say something about where they live and about their interests. Are you from Germany? I am looking forward to your input, Nina. Op 2-apr-2007, om 20:19 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > thanks for this kind wellcome to DSG #70256 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Apr 2, 2007 10:25 pm Subject: Optimal Observance V: Neither Drinking nor Drugging! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 8 Precepts which brings Divinity? The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day endowed with eight features brings high reward and blessing, & is of sublime dignity and greatness! And which are these eight features? In this, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats avoid all alcoholic drinks, such as beer, wine, and liquor! May I also, this day & night, avoid alcoholic & intoxicating drinks... By that I will follow the track & traits of the perfected Arahats! I shall then have observed the Uposatha observance day perfectly! With this fifth praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features brings high - even divine - reward & blessing & is of sublime dignity and immense greatness... Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:44 http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm More on this Optimal Buddhist Uposatha Day Observance: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Fullmoon_Observance_Day.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/atthasila.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Addiction to alcohol and drugs is often a need for tranquilization! The side-effects are much worse than the restlessness they cure... Drinking and drugging - though pleasant - leads to carelessness... The lax neglect of the real world problems is often catastrophic! Bodily decay, social isolation and steady fall is inevitable, though often violently denied or actively ignored by the addicted person... Compared to the calm bliss of meditation is drugged sedation banal! Optimal Observance V: Neither Drinking nor Drugging! Get CLEAN! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * #70257 From: "ken_aitch" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 12:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry ken_aitch Hi Nina, Thank you for looking up the commentary. I think I understand what you have written about the reasons for not giving certain talks - or why it seemed certain talks were not given. The bit about not telling householders not to cling to possessions - just to understand clinging as a conditioned dhamma - is pertinent to recent discussions, too. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ken H, > I looked at the Co. to M III, 143, about Anaathapindika I have in > Thai. It is like you said. > > We read that he had not heard a dhamma talk like this. It is asked > whether the Teacher does not give such a detailed, deep talk. The > answer is that this is not so. He does. But usually layfollowers do > not hear a talk on the six inner aayatanas, the six outer aayatanas, #70258 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 1:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Wisdom kenhowardau Hi Howard, Sorry to be dragging this conversation out. You have probably said all you want say to on the matter, but I am finding the topic of teachers and students quite interesting. I think it would be good to know the ancient traditions because I suspect students used to put enormous faith in their teachers - even to extents that would seem foolish by today's standards. The case of Angulimala comes to mind. He was a wise and virtuous young man when he chose a teacher who proved unworthy of his trust (to put it mildly). Nevertheless, Angulimala set out to kill one thousand men as instructed. The Bodhisatta did not question his jhana teachers even though they [mistakenly] claimed to be teaching the end of dukkha. He followed their teachings faithfully until they could teach him no more. Only then did he move on. ------------------------------------------ <. . .> H: > Now, when that teacher is long dead, and there only remain various, quite different, records of what is purported to be his/her teachings, even within the same tradition, I have to decide what makes sense and what does not - I have to which are the actual teachings and which are not. So, as I see it, taking one's own decisions out of the mix is a pipe dream. ----------------------------------------- I'm not sure about "quite different records even in the same tradition." That is a matter of opinion. Many supposed contradictions have been discussed on DSG, but I think they have all been resolved. But that is a digression. Getting back to choosing, and sticking with, one teacher; I would recommend choosing, and sticking with, the Dhamma as it is found in the Pali Tipitaka and its ancient commentaries. I am very dubious of the popular practice of shopping around - taking a bit from this tradition, another bit from that tradition, and so on. ------------------------------------------ H: > You must believe you have been omniscient in your choice of teacher and teaching, and omniscient in knowing exactly what *is* the teaching and what is not. I do not so believe. I suspect certain radical Islamic extremists are quite certain of exactly what were the teachings of the Prophet and are certain of what commentaries provide the correct interpretations of his teachings. What is certainty, Ken? If one is certain, must one be correct? When is it time to say "I need no longer consider what is what, but merely accept!"? ----------------------------------------- I would say, choose carefully and then stick to one teaching at a time. Of course, if another teacher can disprove the teaching you have accepted, then (and only then) you should change your mind. BTW, I think that is how it was done in the old days. Teachers would engage in debate, and the loser would surrender all his students to the winner. (Andrew posted something on that a while back.) Ken H #70259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 1:09 am Subject: Wisdom as a faculty that cuts off the defilements nilovg Hi Howard, ------- H: I also recall that somewhere Bhikkhu Bodhi, I think it was he, in fact commented on wisdom not being one of the seven. Certainly investigation of dhammas is very close to wisdom, perhaps even describable as the doorway to wisdom, but it seems unlikely they would be the same. ------- N: Look at B.B. Samyutta Nikaya transl, p. 1489, the diagram where he lists the factors. Dhamma vicaya is under wisdom. In the teachings you find many names for pa~n~naa cetasika, indicating different aspects. One of the Bases of Success (idhipadas) is vima"msa, investigation, for example. ------- H: I think that identifying investigation of dhammas with wisdom is uncertain. It is a factor that *leads* to wisdom - all seven are said to be *conducive* to perfect understanding. From SN 46.14 there is the following: "These seven factors of enlightenment, verily, Kassapa, are well expounded by me, cultivated and much developed by me, and when cultivated and much developed they conduce to full realization, perfect wisdom, to Nibbana." ------- N: In this text we read: full wisdom, the lokuttara pa~n~naa. -------- H: If "investigation of dhammas" were to refer exactly to wisdom, it would then make no sense to say that investigation of dhammas conduces to wisdom. -------- N: I see your dilemma. Let me add something. When we look at the lists of the boddhipakkhiya dhammas we see many doubles. This has a deep meaning. The different items show different aspects of the same cetasikas. They indicate different stages of development. For example, indriyas, when developed become powers, balas, unshakable by their opposites. Dhamma vicaya will lead to full understanding, to lokuttara pa~n~naa. Lists are not mere summings up, they are never rigid, they are actual, they pertain to our life now. Whatever we learn, we have to apply it to our life right now. -------- Co. to the Satipatthanasutta (The Way of Mindfulness, Ven. Soma): <2. Investigation of Mental Objects There are karmically good and karmically bad things... right and wrong counterparts of bright and dark things, and an abundance of right reflection on them is the reason conducive to the arising of the non-arisen enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects and for the increase, expansion and the completion of culture of that enlightenment factor when it has arisen. Here, right reflection is the conscious state that is associated with knowledge and which arises by way of perceiving, according to actuality, the nature, function, characteristic and so forth of the several skillful (or wholesome) states of mind and the like. Because it is correct reflection it is called right (or radical) reflection. Six things lead to the arising of this enlightenment factor: Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth; the purification of the basis (namely, the cleaning of the body, clothes and so forth); imparting evenness to the (five spiritual) controlling faculties; avoiding the ignorant; associating with the wise; reflecting on the profound difference of the hard-to-perceive processes of the aggregates, modes (or elements), sense-bases and so forth; and the inclining (sloping, bending) towards the development of the enlightenment factor of the investigation of mental objects. Inquiring about the aggregates and so forth means: seeking the meaning of the aggregates, the modes (or elements), sense-bases, controlling faculties, powers, enlightenment factors, way factors, absorption factors, the meditation for quietude, and the meditation for insight by asking for explanation of knotty points regarding these things in the Five Nikayas with the commentaries from teachers of the Dhamma.> -------- N: , does this not pertain to visible object appearing now, seeing appearing now? The five khandhas are not abstract, they arise and appear now. Nama and rupa. We read at the end: ---------- ------------ N: In every posture, no matter where we are. No selection of place or time. Nina. #70260 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: A Meditation Tip nilovg Dear Han (and Howard), I would like to add something about samatha. I think pa~n~naa is needed that knows when citta is kusala and when akusala. The aim of samatha is detachment, detachment from the sense objects. Perhaps it is oh so difficult not to cling to a pleasant bodily sensation. But to me it is important to know when clinging arises. It does not have to disturb us, as long as pa~n~naa knows. I quote from Survey about samatha: < Generally, people who try to concentrate on an object want the citta to be without disturbance, anxiety or worry about different matters and events in their daily life. They are satisfied if the citta can be firmly fixed on an object and they do not realize that at the moments they wish to concentrate on a specific subject there is no mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå. The development of samatha is actually the development of mahå-kusala accompanied by paññå. Someone who wants to develop samatha must have paññå which sees the danger of akusala, of lobha and dosa, aversion. He should not merely see the disadvantage of dosa, arising when there is worry or anxiety. If one does not know one’s defilements and one does not see the danger of lobha, one will not be able to develop samatha. The person who develops samatha should be truthful, he should have paññå which sees the danger of lobha; he should have sati- sampajaññå: he should know the difference between lobha-múla-citta and mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå. Then he can develop mahå- kusala accompanied by paññå, so that there are no longer akusala cittas arising in between the moments of developing calm, and he can reach the degree of samådhi which is access concentration, upacåra samådhi, and attainment concentration, appanå samådhi, arising at the moment of jhåna, absorption. > I think that it is important to be very sincere as to one's cittas and admit when there is clinging, even very subtle clinging. Han, I know that you do not think of jhana, but is there perhaps another purpose of developing calm? It can only be a basis for vipassana when jhana is attained. But no need to answer, I know you are disinclined to debates. Nina. Op 3-apr-2007, om 2:22 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I moderate the > breathing (against the teachings!) closing up the gap > between the end of out-breath and the beginning of > in-breath, by exhaling gently to the full until the > lungs are empty. While concentrating on this ‘entire > breath’, I could prevent the stray thoughts coming in. > For the short period of time that I succeed in doing > so, I have that sensation of physical and mental calm. > Maybe what I just describe is more on samatha than on > vipassanaa. #70261 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 1:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry kenhowardau Hi Robert, ----- RK: > Do you think there can be dana without any giving, or is dana a concept also? ----- Sorry, `no comprende.' When you say, "without any giving" do you mean "without citta's object being the concept of a gift being passed from one individual to another?" I'm not sure of the answer, but I doubt if that is even your question. There is something in my understanding of concepts and. realities that you disagree with. But we always have trouble defining exactly what that something is. Please keep trying because I am keen to know. Ken H #70262 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 2:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > ----- > RK: > Do you think there can be dana without any giving, or is dana a > concept also? > ----- > > Sorry, `no comprende.' > > When you say, "without any giving" do you mean "without citta's object > being the concept of a gift being passed from one individual to > another?" I'm not sure of the answer, but I doubt if that is even your > question. There is something in my understanding of concepts and. > realities that you disagree with. But we always have trouble defining > exactly what that something is. Please keep trying because I am keen to > know. _________ Dear Ken As I have indicated earlier you seem to find it difficult to reconcile concepts with realities. If you give direct replies to the examples I have given it will help the dilaogue. I repeat one more time: I gave the example of a bhikkhu who was disrobed for asking an executioner to make the death cut extra clean and fast (the bhikkhu wanted to spare the man from suffering). The bhikkhu committed parijika as the executioner did make the blow faster than normal. You replied that this was mere monks rules (or something like that), whereas I say that this is a clear example of heavy akusala kamma path. Could you say why you think that this case was a mere rule? My position is that the concepts are needed to show the subtlety of citta, but you seem to want to avoid the concepts.. Look at the Abhidhamma and how full of concepts it is, without using concepts how could anyone understand.. here is a quick quote: """BY the knowledge of pentration into other's minds one knows the other beings mind associated with painful feeling...knowledge of rememberance of past existences.."".Patthana p. 334 Feeeling triplet, Object 9 Robert #70263 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 4:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: A Meditation Tip hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comments. I am not deliberately developing samatha, and I am not interested in jhaana. (not interested, because I cannot attain it :>). I am meditating the way that suits me best. Sometimes it may be samatha, sometimes it may be vipassanaa. I also realize the importance of pa~n~naa. I do not lack suta-mayaa-pa~n~naa, and cintaa-mayaa-pa~n~naa. But I am not sure about bhaavanaa-mayaa-pa~n~naa. I believe that I will experience bhaavanaa-mayaa-pa~n~naa only when it arises, conditioned by accumulations and conditions. I am not too much concerned about this. My duty is to try my best, the outcome is beyond my control. There is also no danger of me clinging to bodily pleasant sensations, because, for me, the pleasant bodily sensations are difficult to come by. Respectfully, Han #70264 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip hantun1 Dear U Htoo Naing (and Howard), Thank you very much for your kind comments. I fully agree. I hope to see your posts more often. Respectfully, Han #70265 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 5:10 am Subject: Daana Corner (32) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, It is taken from “Giving from the Heart” by M. O'C. Walshe. It is being presented in four parts. The following is 3 of 4 parts. Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ Giving is something that comes from the heart, and as I have said, there are people who enjoy giving for its own sake — which is fine provided the giving is balanced with wisdom. There are of course other people who are reluctant givers, and they are often the same people who find it difficult to say "please," "thank you," "I'm sorry," and so on. For all such types the brahmavihara meditations on love and compassion would be beneficial, to enable them to open up their hearts. Recently, in Britain, we have had a magnificent example of the power of giving from the heart, and from what to many must have seemed an unexpected source. Moved by the plight of the starving people in Ethiopia, the rock star Bob Geldof organized the fantastic international Live Aid concert which raised millions of pounds — in its way, and with the aid of modern technology, the most spectacular act of generosity in history, touching the hearts of millions, and transcending the boundaries not only of politics and religions, but also that gulf that exists between those addicted to this particular form of entertainment and those who dislike it. It is perhaps hardly necessary to point out that dana has to be exercised with discretion, and is as much subject to the rule of the middle way as everything else. It is not the best way to bring up a child, for instance, to give it everything it wants — or thinks it wants. Contrary to some trendy theories recently current, it does no harm to frustrate a spoilt brat occasionally! Nor, of course, is it the highest kind if giving if one expects something in return — even a nice rebirth in some heavenly realm! That is a kind of giving which is basically rooted in attachment and is therefore of limited kammic value. In point of fact, one of the true benefits to the giver is precisely that the act of spontaneous giving is a very fine way of helping to overcome attachment. And that is the intended point of the Vessantara story. We Westerners think of the unfortunate wife and family the Bodhisatta "sacrificed" (though of course there was happy ending and they came back to him, in the story!), but the intention is to regard them as objects of attachment, to be given up as such. As a matter of fact, despite the popularity of this particular story, modern scholars consider that it was not originally a Buddhist tale at all, and was somewhat unskillfully adapted to provide a "Buddhist" moral. “Giving from the Heart” by M. O'C. Walshe to be continued. Metta, Han #70266 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 5:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Scott: "I'm not likely going to articulate this well..." I knew I wasn't likely going to articulate that well... K: "I think you are holding out an olive branch trying to unite the formal meditators with the no-controllers. That's very kind, I am sure, but it won't wash. :-)" Scott: No, its worse than that: I gave my own thoughts about Dhamma, which are inevitably garbled. But lets see if we can salvage this. Me: "Can it be said that if one finds oneself 'doing' or 'practising' - given that this 'doing' is conditioned by Right Understanding - that this is bhaavanaa?" Scott: By right understanding I mean 'samma-di.t.thi'. And samma-di.t.thi is defined in Dhammasa"nga.ni to mean the same as 'pa~n~nindriya.m', which is: "The insight which there is on that occasion is understanding, search, research, searching the Doctrine, discernment, discrimination, differentiation, erudition, proficiency, subtlety, criticism, reflection, analysis, breadth, sagacity, a 'guide', intuition, intelligence, a 'goad', wisdom as faculty, wisdom as power, wisdom as a sword, wisdom as a height, wisdom as light, wisdom as glory, wisdom as splendour, wisdom as a precious stone; the absence of dullness, searaching the Truth, right views - this is the wisdom that there then is." By 'bhaavanaa' I mean mental development in the broad sense. I don't hold to the imprecise and misleading translation that makes it 'meditation' for the simple reason that this then leads, in my opinion, to the wrong views inherent in the whole western distortion of Dhamma - the "I-am-a-buddhist-because-I-sit-and-meditate" sort of thing. This, I think, is fraught and rife - not to mention full - of self-view. This is, by the way, why I value reading here. It is here that I can find an antidote to all the western buddhist nonsense. Its sure a bursting of the old ego to find that 'I can't do anything', but its good to know. By 'doing' or 'practising' I'm referring to the mental factors which may accompany citta at a given mind-moment, mental factors such as samma-vaayaama or viriyindriya.m Indriya, for example, again in the Dhammasa"nga.ni, is: "The mental inception of energy...the striving and the onward effort, the exertion and the endeavour, the zeal and ardour, the vigour and fortitude, the state of unfaltering effort, the state of sustained desire, the state of unflinching endurance and solid grip of the burden, energy, energy as facaulty and as power, right endeavour..." These are not things one uses to further one's practise. These are dhammas which arise with citta and serve to 'flavour' a given mind-moment. One can't make one's self have 'energy' and then use this to go 'meditate'. Right understanding, again, is not 'me-seeing-things-correctly-so -that-I-can-go-and-act-accordingly-and-better-than -the-next-guy-who -sees-things-wrongly-and-is-out-there-acting- accordingly'. These are impersonal dhammas, each with their own characteristics which, when present, condition things to happen, to put is simply. Me: "In other words, effort arises which conditions citta, which conditions a series of cittaa, I guess, including various mind-produced ruupaa (speech and bodily intimations) which can be mistaken for 'practise' done by someone? Yet mental development continues. If that makes sense at all..." K: "You say, "given that this `doing' is conditioned by Right Understanding," but I don't think that can ever be given, can it?" Scott: Well, someone can't just say, 'Today I'm going to make myself have Right Understanding'. So, not a given in that sense. I think it has to arise to dispell Wrong View. I think these things just arise when they do, conditioned as they are, and when operative, would look to the deluded to be someone practising something. The dhammas themselves (and no, this does not mean that they are all little agents, this is just conventional language) become developed by their arising and falling away and strengthening. K: "Doing (carrying out a course of action) is a concept, and is recognised only in the conventionally known world. Concepts, being mere illusions, are neither conditioned nor not conditioned. Therefore, they cannot be bhavana, which is conditioned." Scott: See above. If that makes no sense, please help me clarify this. K: "I agree that certain concepts tend to be associated with certain conditioned dhammas. For example, when there is dana there is often the concept of a gift being handed from one person to another. But that concept has no substance of its own. It could mean anything." What are the operative mental factors when it comes to daana? I don't have time to look at this. I'd suggest that these factors would all really be there functioning from moment to moment until an offering is made but there is no one who made an offering. The presence of these dhammas in succession is mental development. What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. #70267 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 5:54 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 10 nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin said: “We have lobha, no matter whether we work or do not work. We work because we were born. Working is only seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking. You don’t have to change yourself or prepare yourself for Dhamma, you don’t have to devote all your time to it, but develop understanding of this very moment, in order to see it as just dhamma. Seeing and visible object are just dhammas, everything in one’s life is dhamma. But one does not see dhamma, one does not understand dhamma as it is. One tries to spend time on dhamma, to change one’s life, but just now there is dhamma. If we talk more about realities or dhammas and we begin to understand dhamma as it is, then, at times, awareness can arise for a very short moment. That is the true awareness. If you try to devote your time to dhamma, and you sit, trying to watch realities, true dhamma does not appear. It is awareness which can be aware if there is enough understanding of realities. We should not force ourselves to have awareness, then there is lobha again. Dhamma is very natural, no need to reserve time for it or prepare oneself for it. One needs more understanding as condition for awareness to arise any time by itself. Then it is the right sati, the sammå-sati.” We may wonder whether watching T.V. would hinder the arising of sati. While we watch there are many conditions for attachment, or, when the movie is frightening we have fear. Khun Sujin said about this: “Each move is conditioned, that is the meaning of anattå.” In other words, if we want to watch T.V. this wish is conditioned already. Also while we watch there is seeing, hearing or thinking, one reality at a time. Realities appear, no matter whether we watch or do not watch T.V. There is one world at a time appearing through one of the six doorways. These six worlds should be separated so that one understands that there is no self. Realities appear because of their own conditions, not because of our wish. Khun Sujin said: “ Hardness is already there as object of which right understanding can be developed. Visible object appears. There is no need to do anything.” When Sarah asked why we always have so much lobha, Khun Sujin answered: “It is the function of lobha to cling, that is why there is clinging. We cannot change its characteristic or function. This reminds us that lobha is dhamma, it arises because of its own conditions, it is there as object of which right understanding can be developed.“ ******** Nina. #70268 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 6:00 am Subject: eCard from England jonoabb Hi All Sarah and I are in England staying at her mother's place for the next few days. We are a little jet-lagged from the 12-hour flight, especially as our departure time from HK was 1:30am so we were already rather tired before the flight began ... Looking forward to reading the messages and hopefully joining in with a post or two. Jon PS Kate (Sarah's mum) sends her best wishes to Nina and Lodewijk and other dsg friends. #70269 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 6:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable jonoabb Hi Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Jon, ... > L: I don't make too much of the distinction "intrinsic". I think it just > means not to be confused with javana. And it does seem to me that > "desirable and undesirable" is a matter of values. It is what is > appropriate according to kusala and akusala. The big difference, as I > see it, is that "desirable and undesirable" is relative to time, place, > culture, and circumstance, while kusala and akusala is always the same. > For example, giving is always giving but the fruit of giving, kusala > vipaka citta, may at one time be the experience of a chariot and at > another time the experience of a cadillac. > > However, I suspect you want vipaka citta to have an ultimate reality as > object, not a chariot or cadillac. Perhaps this is a case of not seeing > the forest for the trees. A chariot or cadillac is just a whole bunch of > vipaka cittas. To me it doesn't make much sense to say the fruit of > giving is an infinitesimally small moment of formless color. I think what you're saying is that it makes no sense to talk of kusala vipaka as ultimate dhammas if the 'conventional reality' concerned is not also something that is 'desirable' according to current values. There is problem with that approach, however. Let's take your example of a Cadillac (a conventionally desirable object). If one knocks one's head on the door-sill while getting into the seat, the vipaka of that moment is akusala, despite the conventional 'desirableness' of the door-sill as part of a Cadillac. Jon #70270 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 2:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Nature of Wisdom upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 4/3/07 4:03:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Sorry to be dragging this conversation out. You have probably said > all you want say to on the matter, but I am finding the topic of > teachers and students quite interesting. I think it would be good to > know the ancient traditions because I suspect students used to put > enormous faith in their teachers - even to extents that would seem > foolish by today's standards. > ======================== We differ on this matter, Ken. I do agree, however, that jumping from teacher to teacher with but cursory examination of a teacher and his/her teachings is just silly. I have been an upasaka of the Buddha's for, I would guess, about thirty years, and my confidence in him and his Dhamma has continually waxed and never waned. The more I have studied and applied his Dhamma, the greater my saddha. With metta, Howard #70271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 5:49 am Subject: Rupas Ch 6, no 2 nilovg Dear friends, The intention expressed through bodily intimation is intelligible to others, not through the eye-door but through the mind-door. Knowing, for example, that someone waves is cognition through the mind-door and this cognition is conditioned by seeing-consciousness that experiences visible object or colour. The meaning of what has been intimated is known after reflection on it, thus it can only be cognized through the mind-door. The “Visuddhimagga” (XIV, 61) defines intimation in a similar way and then states about its function, manifestation and proximate cause: ... Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of bodily excitement. Its proximate cause is the consciousness- originated air-element. As to the proximate cause, as we have seen, the element of wind or air plays its specific role in the intimating of intention by bodily movement or gestures. We are inclined to take intimation as belonging to self, but bodily intimation is only a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. There is no person who communicates by gestures. Are we aware of nåma and rúpa when we gesticulate? Are there kusala cittas or akusala cittas at such moments? Most of the time there are akusala cittas, but we do not notice it. Do we realize which type of citta conditions the bodily intimation when we wave to someone else in order to greet him, when we gesticulate in order to tell him to come nearer, when we nod our head while we agree with something or shake it while we deny something? Such gestures are part of our daily routine and it seems that we make them automatically. Perhaps we never considered what types of citta condition them. Akusala citta conditions bodily intimation, for example, when we with mimics ridicule someone else or show our contempt for him. In such cases it is obvious that there is akusala citta. We should remember that bodily intimation is more often conditioned by akusala citta than by kusala citta. There may be subtle clinging that is not so obvious while we are expressing our intention by gestures. When there is mindfulness we can find out whether there is kusala citta or akusala citta. ******* Nina. #70272 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wisdom as a faculty that cuts off the defilements upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/3/07 4:09:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > ------- > H: > I also recall that somewhere > Bhikkhu Bodhi, I think it was he, in fact commented on wisdom not > being one of > the seven. Certainly investigation of dhammas is very close to > wisdom, perhaps > even describable as the doorway to wisdom, but it seems unlikely they > would > be the same. > ------- > N: Look at B.B. Samyutta Nikaya transl, p. 1489, the diagram where he > lists the factors. Dhamma vicaya is under wisdom. In the teachings > you find many names for pa~n~naa cetasika, indicating different > aspects. One of the Bases of Success (idhipadas) is vima"msa, > investigation, for example. > ------- ------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, Nina. Yes, I will look at it - thank you. I have also seen some other sources where investigation of dhammas is described as an aspect of wisdom. I may be wrong on this matter, which would be fine. ;-) Also, I suppose wisdom being one of the conditions for wisdom isn't absurd, even though a bit odd. A slight degree of wisdom would be a condition for greater wisdom. One translation - in fact given below by me - gives investigation of dhammas as conducive to "perfect wisdom". ------------------------------------------- > > H: I think that identifying investigation of dhammas with wisdom is > uncertain. It is a factor that *leads* to wisdom - all seven are said > to be > *conducive* to perfect understanding. From SN 46.14 there is the > following: "These > seven factors of enlightenment, verily, Kassapa, are well expounded > by me, > cultivated and much developed by me, and when cultivated and much > developed they > conduce to full realization, perfect wisdom, to Nibbana." > ------- > N: In this text we read: full wisdom, the lokuttara pa~n~naa. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. I mention that above as well. ----------------------------------------- > -------- > H: If "investigation of > dhammas" were to refer exactly to wisdom, it would then make no sense > to say > that investigation of dhammas conduces to wisdom. > -------- > N: I see your dilemma. Let me add something. When we look at the > lists of the boddhipakkhiya dhammas we see many doubles. This has a > deep meaning. The different items show different aspects of the same > cetasikas. They indicate different stages of development. For > example, indriyas, when developed become powers, balas, unshakable by > their opposites. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I think you are right, Nina. Aspects & degrees & stages. :-) I'm starting to get concerned, Nina! You are convincing me of some matters far too much, recently!! LOLOL! --------------------------------------- > > > > > > > ====================== Thanks, Nina. With metta, Howard #70273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 7:39 am Subject: a meditation tip. nilovg Dear Han, I think you have the right attitude: ------- Han: ----------- That is good, because when we are so concerned it shows attachment. I just read what Scott wrote about bhavana. He explains about the cetasikas: ------- N: When they arise for a moment and then fall away they are not lost, they are accumulated so that there are conditions for their arising again and again. It seems insignificant, one moment of understanding, but by its arising there is development, there is bhavana. Actually, suta and cinta are bhavana. The goal is the growth of understanding, that is why we study, read, discuss. We may wonder how considering seeing as experiencing only what appears through the eyes could ever lead to less defilements. When we understand seeing, thinking of what is seen, and all other namas and rupas as impersonal elements which are conditioned, we are on the right way eventually leading to the eradication of a distorted view of realities that we have now at this moment. Samatha is also bhavana. Also before the Buddha people practised samatha. But the Buddha gave it a new dimension, just as he did with other notions that were rife at that time. Actually samatha should not be practised without vipassana, these two should be together. What degree of samatha is developed, well, that depends on the individual. Samatha should not be taken for self, as we read in the sutta spoken to Sariputta. --------- BTW I read your answer to Htoo, but did not see his mail. Is he around? It is so mysterious with him. He is around but invisible:-)) Nina. #70274 From: connie Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 8:33 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (48) nichiconn Dear Therii Pa.taacaaraa fans, Now we come to Ti.msamattaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa (The commentary on the verses of the group of thirty theriis): Musalaani gahetvaanaati-aadikaa ti.msamattaana.m theriina.m gaathaa. Taapi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantiyo anukkamena upacitavimokkhasambhaaraa imasmi.m buddhuppaade sakakammasa~ncoditaa tattha tattha kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa pa.taacaaraaya theriyaa santike dhamma.m sutvaa pa.tiladdhasaddhaa pabbajitvaa parisuddhasiilaa vattapa.tivatta.m paripuurentiyo viharanti. Athekadivasa.m pa.taacaaraatherii taasa.m ovaada.m dentii- 117. "Musalaani gahetvaana, dha~n~na.m ko.t.tenti maa.navaa; puttadaaraani posentaa, dhana.m vindanti maa.navaa. 118. "Karotha buddhasaasana.m, ya.m katvaa naanutappati; khippa.m paadaani dhovitvaa, ekamante nisiidatha; cetosamathamanuyuttaa, karotha buddhasaasanan"ti.- Imaa dve gaathaa abhaasi. The verses beginning Having taken pestles are those of the group of thirty theriis. They too did meritorious deed[s] under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] during various lives as their basis for release. In due course they accumulated the requisites for liberation, and in this Buddha era, impelled by their own deeds, they were born in good families her and there. When they came of age, they heard the Doctrine in the presence of Therii Pa.taacaaraa. They gained faith and went forth. They were of pure viruous conduct, and lived fulfilling their various duities. Then one day, Therii Pa.taacaaraa gave them instruction and spoke these two verses: 117. Having taken pestles, young brahmins grind grain. Nourishing wives and children, young brahmans find wealth. 118. Do the Buddha's teaching. Having done it, one does not repent. Wash your feet quickly and sit down on one side. Intent on peace of mind, do the Buddha's teaching. RD: Men in their prime with pestle and with quern Are busied pounding rice and grinding corn. Men in their prime gather and heap up wealth, To have and nourish wife and children dear. (117) But ye, my sisters, see ye carry out The Buddha's will, which bringeth no remorse. Swiftly bathe ye your feet, then sit ye down Apart; your souls surrender utterly To spiritual calm - so do his will. (118) Tatthaaya.m sa"nkhepattho- ime sattaa jiivitahetu musalaani gahetvaa paresa.m dha~n~na.m ko.t.tenti, udukkhalakamma.m karonti. A~n~nampi edisa.m nihiinakamma.m katvaa puttadaara.m posentaa yathaaraha.m dhanampi sa.mharanti. Ta.m pana nesa.m kamma.m nihiina.m gamma.m pothujjanika.m dukkha.m anatthasa~nhita~nca. Tasmaa edisa.m sa.mkilesikapapa~nca.m vajjetvaa karotha buddhasaasana.m sikkhattayasa"nkhaata.m sammaasambuddhasaasana.m karotha sampaadetha attano santaane nibbattetha. 117. This is the summary of the meaning there: these beings, having taken pestles for the sake of their livelihood, do the work of the mortar; they grind other people's grain. Doing inferior work such as that or some other, nourishing wives and children they heap up wealth as is fitting. But this work of theirs is inferior, belonging to the villages, low class, misery, connected with the profitable. Tattha kaara.namaaha- "ya.m katvaa naanutappatii"ti, yassa kara.nahetu etarahi aayati~nca anutaapa.m naapajjati. Idaani tassa kara.ne pubbakicca.m anuyogavidhi~nca dassetu.m, "khippa.m paadaani dhovitvaa"ti-aadi vutta.m. Tattha yasmaa adhovitapaadassa avikkhaalitamukhassa ca nisajjasukha.m utusappaayalaabho ca na hoti, paade pana dhovitvaa mukha~nca vikkhaaletvaa ekamante nisinnassa tadubhaya.m labhati, tasmaa khippa.m ima.m yathaaladdha.m kha.na.m aviraadhentiyo paadaani attano paade dhovitvaa ekamante vivitte okaase nisiidatha nisajjatha. A.t.thati.msaaya aaramma.nesu yattha katthaci cittarucike aaramma.ne attano citta.m upanibandhitvaa cetosamathamanuyuttaa samaahitena cittena catusaccakamma.t.thaanabhaavanaavasena buddhassa bhagavato saasana.m ovaada.m anusi.t.thi.m karotha sampaadethaati. 118. Therefore, destroy the impediment of defilements of such a kind. Do the Buddha's teaching; obtain, do the teaching of the Fully and Perfectly Awakened One that is called the training. Perform it in your own continuity. There she explains the cause: Having done it one does not repent. The result of doing it now or in the future is that one does not come to regret it. In doing this now in order to show the preliminary act and the method for applying oneself, wash (dhovitvaa) your feet quickly, etc, is said. There, he who sits down without washing his feet (a-dhovita-paadassa) and without washing his face (a-vikkhaalita-mukhassa) does not obtain suitable surroundings; but if he washes his feed (paade pana dhovitvaa) and if he washes his face (mukha~n ca vikkhaaletva), seated on one side, he obtains both of them. Therefore, quickly, not missing this opportune moment just as it has been obtained, wash your feet (paadaani), your own feet (attano paade), and sit down (nisiidatha) one side, be seated (nisajjatha) in a secluded place. Having connected one's own mind to the thirty-eight objects [of meditation], to whatever object that depends on the mind, intent on peace of mind (ceto-samatham anuyuttaa), with a composed mind (samaahitena cittena) through the development of the meditation on the four truths, do, obtain the admonition (anusi.t.thi.m), the instruction (ovaada.m), the teaching (saasana.m) of the Buddha, of the Blessed One. === to be continued, connie #70275 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 4:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] a meditation tip. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina & Han - In a message dated 4/3/07 11:14:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > BTW I read your answer to Htoo, but did not see his mail. Is he > around? It is so mysterious with him. He is around but invisible:-)) > Nina. > ==================== Yes, this is odd - I also didn't see Htoo's post. Htoo? Are you "here"? :-) With metta, Howard #70276 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 9:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) bhavana moellerdieter Dear Nina (and friends), sorry, I should have already introduced myself .. yes, I live in Germany ( i.e. in Hamburg ) since a couple of years, following 2 decades in Thailand. Besides activities in export and consultancy , I was very much interested in Thai culture , particular in Buddhism and recognized that I had found my philosophy /religion .. A brief monkhood in the Thai tradition provided me with the understanding what it means to be a Bhikkhu ... and had the opportunity to meet wellknown Thai Buddhists.. (though I never came in contact with Acharn Sujin). It is my view that the whole Buddha Dhamma /Canon in its essence is represented by the 4 Noble Truths and the practise of the 8fold Noble Path is the key of development for progress in our live. So, the cultivation of that practise may be called bhavana whereas its aim is the penetration/the perfect understanding of the 4 Noble Truths . As I see it , this is a gradual process of insights which accumulates in growing wisdom (panna) leading to the abolishment of ignorance (avijja) respectively defilements and by that to enlightenment/cessation of suffering. My major interest in discussions is therefor to keep the context with the Noble Path , and I hope to get a clearer picture about the Abhidhamma's contribution in this respect. What do you think? with Metta Dieter #70277 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 10:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Jon (and Nina) - ... > > When there is a moment of awareness of a presently arisen dhamma, the > > consciousness is kusala and it is accompanied by right effort. > > > ------------------------------ > Howard: > The Buddha was specific as to what right effort is. Which of the four > right efforts *must* be in effect when aware of a dhamma? Also, by "aware" are > you referring to sati? > ------------------------------ Yes, I'm referring to sati of satipatthana. The mental factor of viriya accompanies every moment of kusala or akusala consciousness. When there is kusala consciousness of the level of awareness/insight, the accompanying viriya is Right Effort. At such moments there is the non-arising of akusala and there is the arising of kusala (as to precisely which of the four Right Efforts is present at a given moment of awareness/insight, I don't think it really matters). At moments of kusala other than awareness/insight, the mental factor of effort is also kusala, but is not Right Effort of (the mundane) path level. > -------------------------------- > Howard: > You seem to be missing my point, Jon. One extreme is that there is no > control at all, an extreme often expressed here. Another is that whatever one > wishes to do, just do it! It was this latter extreme I was takiing aim at. It's interesting that both these extremes are attributed to the same person ;-)) Could it be that what is being said is being misunderstood? Surely the person who one minute says 'no control' would not the next minute say that awareness could be made to arise by just wishing to do it!! > We > cannot "just be aware instantly"'. What we can do is willfully take baby > steps, bringing about "small", preliminary conditions which, together, eventually > lead to more significant results, transforming the mind (i.e. mental > functioning) so that "just being aware instantly" does become the norm. We need to keep in mind that only kusala can lead to kusala. However, the development of kusala is not a matter of 'wilfully taking baby steps'. That I think is a particular interpretation of the teachings. > > The idea that defilements need to be weakened first in order for the > > development of awareness (whether awareness of those defilements or > > awareness of any other dhamma) to begin or to proceed may sound > > 'reasonable', but is it what the Buddha taught? > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes. That is what the entirety of Dhamma practice is about. > ------------------------------------------ > If so, at what stage of > > > weakening of defilements does the development of awareness first start > > to kick in, and how is this whole notion expressed in the suttas, as you > > see it? > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sorry, Jon - much too much for me to attempt to embark on. Remember > the old TV show, Mission Impossible? ;-)) > --------------------------------------- Fair enough, Howard :-)). Perhaps we can come back to this point later. I'd be interested to discuss further the notion that the weakening of the defilements in order to allow for the arising of awareness is the entirety of Dhamma practice. Is this something the texts say, or is it another particular interpretation of the texts? > > Of > > course, the mere hearing of the teachings alone is not sufficient, and > > no-one here has ever suggested it is, but it is a necessary part of the > > development of the path both in the beginning and throughout until > > enlightenment. > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, Jon, it is repeatedly suggested as sufficient. In fact it is > asserted to be the case. It is said to be "the only way". > --------------------------------------- You are fond of repeating this point ;-)) To my knowledge, however, no-one has ever said here that the mere hearing of the teachings alone is sufficient. A straw man, if ever there was one! Jon #70278 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) bhavana nilovg Dear Dieter, Thank you, I think this is a very good introduction, it is to the point. Abhidhamma: of course I like to discuss it, I like especially helping others to see it as not an abstract theory. Let us see what comes up. Nina. Op 3-apr-2007, om 18:28 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > My major interest in discussions is therefor to keep the context > with the Noble Path , and I hope to get a clearer picture about the > Abhidhamma's contribution in this respect. > > What do you think? #70279 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 11:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] eCard from England nilovg Dear Jon, many thanks for your Ecard. I was glad to see it and-- relieved. I had understood that you were surfing near the Solomon Islands (Ken mentioned something like that) or surfing in the Sahara?? Our warmest regards and all our love to Kate. Lodewijk said he hopes to see her again some day in Bgk. Nina. Op 3-apr-2007, om 15:02 heeft jonoabb het volgende geschreven: > Kate (Sarah's mum) sends her best wishes to Nina and Lodewijk and > other dsg friends. #70280 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 7:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/3/07 2:00:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Jon (and Nina) - > ... > >>When there is a moment of awareness of a presently arisen dhamma, > the > >>consciousness is kusala and it is accompanied by right effort. > >> > >------------------------------ > >Howard: > > The Buddha was specific as to what right effort is. Which of > the four > >right efforts *must* be in effect when aware of a dhamma? Also, by > "aware" are > >you referring to sati? > >------------------------------ > > Yes, I'm referring to sati of satipatthana. > > The mental factor of viriya accompanies every moment of kusala or > akusala consciousness. When there is kusala consciousness of the level > of awareness/insight, the accompanying viriya is Right Effort. At > such moments there is the non-arising of akusala and there is the > arising of kusala (as to precisely which of the four Right Efforts is > present at a given moment of awareness/insight, I don't think it really > matters). ----------------------------------------- Howard: It seems to me that you don't give much credence to what the Buddha said about the four right efforts, and I suspect at is so because they don't fit so well with the Abhidhamma perspective. If I am wrong, I'd like to see how you them as compatible - though of course you needn't bother yourself in attempting to satisfy what I would "like"! (I hate "assignments" myself! ;-) ---------------------------------------- > > At moments of kusala other than awareness/insight, the mental factor of > effort is also kusala, but is not Right Effort of (the mundane) path > level. > > >-------------------------------- > >Howard: > > You seem to be missing my point, Jon. One extreme is that there > is no > >control at all, an extreme often expressed here. Another is that > whatever one > >wishes to do, just do it! It was this latter extreme I was takiing aim > at. > > It's interesting that both these extremes are attributed to the same > person ;-)) Could it be that what is being said is being > misunderstood? Surely the person who one minute says 'no control' > would not the next minute say that awareness could be made to arise by > just wishing to do it!! -------------------------------------- Howard: I find it quite common to come across folks who are quite capable of holding extreme contradictory views at the same time. One example is that of both accepting a strict determinism and simultaneously a belief in events occurring quite randomly. It makes no sense, yet I come across it a lot. (Of course it is certainly possible that I misunderstand. However, I am always happy to look at clarifications. This old horse is willing to learn new tricks - witness my recent second thoughts on maers that Nina has written me about.) --------------------------------------- > > >We > >cannot "just be aware instantly"'. What we can do is willfully take > baby > >steps, bringing about "small", preliminary conditions which, together, > eventually > >lead to more significant results, transforming the mind (i.e. mental > >functioning) so that "just being aware instantly" does become the > norm. > > We need to keep in mind that only kusala can lead to kusala. However, > the development of kusala is not a matter of 'wilfully taking baby > steps'. That I think is a particular interpretation of the teachings. ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, is always a matter of interpretation. In this case it is not yours. ------------------------------------- > > >>The idea that defilements need to be weakened first in order for the > >>development of awareness (whether awareness of those defilements or > >>awareness of any other dhamma) to begin or to proceed may sound > >>'reasonable', but is it what the Buddha taught? > >> > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > > Yes. That is what the entirety of Dhamma practice is about. > >------------------------------------------ > > If so, at what stage of > > >>weakening of defilements does the development of awareness first > start > >>to kick in, and how is this whole notion expressed in the suttas, as > you > >>see it? > > > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Sorry, Jon - much too much for me to attempt to embark on. > Remember > >the old TV show, Mission Impossible? ;-)) > >--------------------------------------- > > Fair enough, Howard :-)). Perhaps we can come back to this point > later. I'd be interested to discuss further the notion that the > weakening of the defilements in order to allow for the arising of > awareness is the entirety of Dhamma practice. Is this something > the texts say, or is it another particular interpretation of the texts? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think it is in "the texts", Jon. The texts as a whole, a perspective that I believe you think a lot of. ;-)) ----------------------------------------- > > >>Of > >>course, the mere hearing of the teachings alone is not sufficient, > and > >>no-one here has ever suggested it is, but it is a necessary part of > the > >>development of the path both in the beginning and throughout until > >>enlightenment. > > > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > No, Jon, it is repeatedly suggested as sufficient. In fact it > is > >asserted to be the case. It is said to be "the only way". > >--------------------------------------- > > You are fond of repeating this point ;-)) To my knowledge, however, > no-one has ever said here that the mere hearing of the teachings alone > is sufficient. A straw man, if ever there was one! ----------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, when I wrote this I was quoting from a recent post to me - by Nina I think. Don't you recall? (There's really no virtue in trying to score points, Jon. Don't you agree?) ----------------------------------------- > > Jon > ==================== With metta, Howard #70281 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 12:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Hi Howard, Where did you get this from? Hearing alone, not considering, etc.? Perhaps we have to take this up again? Nina. Op 3-apr-2007, om 20:53 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > You are fond of repeating this point ;-)) To my knowledge, however, > > no-one has ever said here that the mere hearing of the teachings > alone > > is sufficient. A straw man, if ever there was one! > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Jon, when I wrote this I was quoting from a recent post to me - by > Nina I think. Don't you recall? #70282 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 9:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/3/07 3:08:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Where did you get this from? Hearing alone, not considering, etc.? > Perhaps we have to take this up again? > Nina. > Op 3-apr-2007, om 20:53 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >You are fond of repeating this point ;-)) To my knowledge, however, > >>no-one has ever said here that the mere hearing of the teachings > >alone > >>is sufficient. A straw man, if ever there was one! > > > >----------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >Jon, when I wrote this I was quoting from a recent post to me - by > >Nina I think. Don't you recall? > > ===================== I'll have to trace it back, Nina. I seem to recall you quoting Khun Sujin using the phrase "the only way" with regard to developing wisdom by listening tothe Dhamma. I ill check back. With metta, Howard #70283 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 9:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - =========================== Nina, it came in your msg #69976: ________________________ (You quoting Khun Sujin) < Ignorance is the condition for not seeing the benefit of the Dhamma, whereas paññå is the condition for realizing its benefit. Each moment of listening to the Dhamma is beneficial. There may not always be an opportunity to apply the Dhamma, but when we have listened to it, there are conditions for kusala dhammas to develop and akusala dhammas gradually to decrease.> ------ N: Really, there is no other way leading to the growth of pa~n~naa. LIstening, considering and understanding what one hears. ------------------------------------------- This seemed rather unequivocal to me, Nina. It is what I have gleaned all along about Khun Sujin's perspective, and yours, on what constitutes Dhamma practice. I apologize if I have misunderstood. With metta, Howard #70284 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 4/3/07 3:08:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Where did you get this from? Hearing alone, not considering, etc.? > Perhaps we have to take this up again? > Nina. > ======================= Ah, ok, I see. No, I'm sorry, I didn't mean listenting only. I do understand that considering, contemplating, mulling over, attempting to undeand is all part of it. I really didn'an to suggest otherwise, and I'm sorry for being unclear. (I do still strongly disagree that this is the only way, though. ;-) With metta, Howard #70285 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 9:55 am Subject: Keyboard Problem upasaka_howard Hi all - Please excuse the recent typos in some of my posts - the keyboais malfunctioning. (It is beset with defilements apparently! ;-) With metta, Howard #70286 From: han tun Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 2:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] a meditation tip. hantun1 Dear Nina (and Howard), Nina: I think you have the right attitude: Han: Thank you, Nina. ----------- Nina: When they (moments of understanding) arise for a moment and then fall away they are not lost, they are accumulated so that there are conditions for their arising again and again. It seems insignificant, one moment of understanding, but by its arising there is development, there is bhavana. Actually, suta and cinta are bhavana. The goal is the growth of understanding, that is why we study, read, discuss. Han: I agree, but it is for me the first time that I heard suta and cinta are also bhavana. I must make a note of it. ----------- Nina: We may wonder how considering seeing as experiencing only what appears through the eyes could ever lead to less defilements. When we understand seeing, thinking of what is seen, and all other namas and rupas as impersonal elements which are conditioned, we are on the right way eventually leading to the eradication of a distorted view of realities that we have now at this moment. Han: I agree. ----------- Nina: Samatha is also bhavana. Also before the Buddha people practised samatha. But the Buddha gave it a new dimension, just as he did with other notions that were rife at that time. Actually samatha should not be practised without vipassana, these two should be together. What degree of samatha is developed, well, that depends on the individual. Samatha should not be taken for self, as we read in the sutta spoken to Sariputta. Han; Yes, I accept your comment that samatha should not be practised without vipassana, and these two should be together. --------- Nina” BTW I read your answer to Htoo, but did not see his mail. Is he around? It is so mysterious with him. He is around but invisible:-) ) Han: Htoo is very much here but he is not yet fully visible. Maybe he is the ‘Big Brother’ watching us! Respectfully, Han #70287 From: connie Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 3:42 pm Subject: Re: A Meditation Tip nichiconn Dear Howard, I'm almost afraid to ask, but is the following 'permitting' an example of "control"? H: I expand my attention to that sensation and to the body as a whole, permitting that sensation to suffuse the entire body; with that, the meditation deepens noticeably and becomes effortless. peace, connie #70288 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Meditation Tip upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 4/3/07 6:43:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, connieparker@... writes: > Dear Howard, > I'm almost afraid to ask, but is the following 'permitting' an example of > "control"? > > H: I expand my attention to that sensation and to the body as a whole, > permitting that sensation to suffuse the entire body; with that, the > meditation deepens noticeably and becomes effortless. > > peace, > connie > =========================== I hardly know what to say. It is neither a controlling nor a non-controlling. It happens. There is intention. There is also no one doing anything. Does that make sense to you? It does to me unless I stop to think about it! ;-) With metta, Howard #70289 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Jon, J: "I think what you're saying is that it makes no sense to talk of kusala vipaka as ultimate dhammas if the 'conventional reality' concerned is not also something that is 'desirable' according to current values. There is problem with that approach, however. Let's take your example of a Cadillac (a conventionally desirable object). If one knocks one's head on the door-sill while getting into the seat, the vipaka of that moment is akusala, despite the conventional 'desirableness' of the door-sill as part of a Cadillac." L: Right, with body consciousness there is a clear indicator (feeling) that tells us whether the object is desirable or not. But with eye, ear, nose and tongue consciousness there is no such indicator. Hence, we must resort to conventional values. Once we do that we may as well talk about cars and chariots. That doesn't invalidate the significance of kamma in the least. But it doesn't require an understanding of ultimate realities to work out what is a desirable appearance. Just ask a lawyer! Larry #70290 From: "m_nease" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 5:17 pm Subject: Re: ahosi kamma m_nease Hi Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connie wrote: > It might be that I'm mixing up "function" and "occasion for results". Maybe. In some contexts 'result' refers exclusively to rebirth (as I recall--corrections welcome)--in others maybe not. > That is,(I think), even the ahosi kamma could still function as (at least) > supporting or obstructive kamma, which is still part of how we generally > seem to think of 'result'. You know the saying that "nothing is lost"... Right--the reservations above regarding the use of 'result', this is the way it seems to me. King Ajatasattu's failure to attain after his meeting the Buddha is an example, if I understand this correctly. The vipaaka of having killed Bimbisara seems to me to have obstructed his attainment on that occasion--but of course, that doesn't make it ahosi, does it (thinking out loud here)? No, I know of no reason to think it might not still result in unfavorable rebirth. So never mind this paragraph... > That and reminding myself to compare it with the other translation > (below; which seems to support what you said, mike) is why I emphasized > the last sentence of the earlier quote: **There is no karma "which has > been" when the round of births is proceeding.** Right--it still seems to me that ahosi kamma is kamma that no longer can have the effect of producing rebirth in particular (as opposed to supporting or obstructing). Jury still out here too. mike #70291 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 5:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry kenhowardau Hi Robert, I still can't grasp the point you are making. As I am sure we agree; whenever we are talking about conventional realities (including abortion and public execution) we are talking about permanence, substance and free-will. That is always the case; there can be no exceptions. In the Dhamma we see conventional realities being used purely as a way of describing ultimate realities. This is not to be confused with the former (delusory) kind of talk. Any resemblance is purely coincidental. Once we have started to think that there really are bhikkhus, executioners and criminals (for example) we have lost track of the Dhamma. We are back in the illusory world of permanence, satisfactoriness and control. We can't have it both ways. Either there are only dhammas or there are no dhammas at all. ------------- RK: > As I have indicated earlier you seem to find it difficult to reconcile concepts with realities. If you give direct replies to the examples I have given it will help the dilaogue. I repeat one more time: I gave the example of a bhikkhu who was disrobed for asking an executioner to make the death cut extra clean and fast (the bhikkhu wanted to spare the man from suffering). The bhikkhu committed parijika as the executioner did make the blow faster than normal. You replied that this was mere monks rules (or something like that), whereas I say that this is a clear example of heavy akusala kamma path. Could you say why you think that this case was a mere rule? -------------- Is there a Vinaya rule that prohibits a monk from advising someone to kill? I assume there is. There is a rule for just about everything else. In any case, it can only be a rule. Akusala kamma-patha is not a conversation between a monk and an executioner; it is a fleeting paramattha dhamma. A conversation, if it exists at all, can only be something permanent (lasting for a period of time) satisfactory (useful for a purpose of some kind) and controlled (by the people taking part in it). I know I sometimes say things in a controversial (attention seeking?) way. :-) However I am not trying to add anything to our common ground. For example, I am not trying to add anything to this quote that Nina gave today: ---------- N: >. . . Khun Sujin said about this: "Each move is conditioned, that is the meaning of anattå." In other words, if we want to watch T.V. this wish is conditioned already. Also while we watch there is seeing, hearing or thinking, one reality at a time. Realities appear, no matter whether we watch or do not watch T.V. There is one world at a time appearing through one of the six doorways. These six worlds should be separated so that one understands that there is no self. Realities appear because of their own conditions, not because of our wish. Khun Sujin said: " Hardness is already there as object of which right understanding can be developed. Visible object appears. There is no need to do anything." When Sarah asked why we always have so much lobha, Khun Sujin answered: "It is the function of lobha to cling, that is why there is clinging. We cannot change its characteristic or function. This reminds us that lobha is dhamma, it arises because of its own conditions, it is there as object of which right understanding can be developed." > ----------- In that one, very important, way 'watching TV' and 'asking an executioner to 'make it quick'' are the same, aren't they? ("Realities appear because of their own conditions, not because of our wish.") That is the way taught by the Buddha. In every other way the two examples are very different. -------------------- RK: > My position is that the concepts are needed to show the subtlety of citta, but you seem to want to avoid the concepts.. Look at the Abhidhamma and how full of concepts it is, without using concepts how could anyone understand.. here is a quick quote: """BY the knowledge of pentration into other's minds one knows the other beings mind associated with painful feeling...knowledge of rememberance of past existences.."".Patthana p. 334 Feeeling triplet, Object 9 -------------------- Sorry, but that quote has gone completely over my head. I don't know what it means. Ken H #70292 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 7:24 pm Subject: Conventional and paramattha: Leading to stream entry rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > I still can't grasp the point you are making. > > As I am sure we agree; whenever we are talking about conventional > realities (including abortion and public execution) we are talking > about permanence, substance and free-will. That is always the case; > there can be no exceptions. > In the Dhamma we see conventional realities being used purely as a > way of describing ultimate realities. This is not to be confused with > the former (delusory) kind of talk. Any resemblance is purely > coincidental. _____________________________ Dear Ken It is axiomatic in Dhamma that persons and beings have no existence, and on this you are very clear. However, the Dhamma is taught in two ways. Sarah quoted from the Katthavathu atthakatha http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/21096 In the first chapter in the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy - the Abhidhamma text, PTS)and its commentary (the Debates Commentary) (On the Person, p 41) ***** QUOTe """Even in such expressions as `there is the person who works for his own good'(DN iii, 232), (MNi, 341, 411), (AN ii, 95) and so on, thre is no such person as bodily and mental aggregates, known in their specific and general senses. Given bodily and mental aggregates, it is customary to say such and such a name, a family. Thus, by this popular turn of speech, convention, expression, is meant: "there is the person." This is the sense here. """" ------- RK:So we certainly agree here. But what I see missing is appreciation of the usefulness of conventional explanations of Dhamma- ------------- QUOTe"""""The Buddhas have two kinds of discourse, the popular and the philosophical. Those relating to a being, a person, a deva, a brahma and so forth, are popular discourses, while those relating to impermanence,ill, soul-less, the aggregates, the elements, the senses, the application of mindfulness, the intent contemplation, and so forth, are discourses on highest meaning."""" ------------- RK:You appreciate the latter teaching method but, correct me if I am wrong, don't get much out of the first(those relating to deva, a being, person)? -------- QUOTe""" But popular discourse they teach consistently and in conformity with truth according to the method selected. And highest-meaning discourse, too. `they teach consistently and in conformity with truth according to the method selected. Thus it is said: The Enlightened One, best of speakers, spoke two kinds of truth, namely, the popular and that of highest meaning, a third is not got at (i.e known). There is another way of putting it. The teaching of the Exalted One is of two kinds, the highest-meaning teaching consisting of the aggregates, and so forth, and the popular taching consisting of `butter-jar,' and so forth. The Exalted One does not, indeed, overrun consistency. Hence, on the mere expression "there is the person who," must not command adherence. The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So another wise man also SHOULD NOT, IN EXPLAINING THE HIGHEST MEANING, OVERRUN A CONCEPT."""END QUOTE ------------ RK:Please take particular note of the last sentence. ------------------- > ------------- > RK: > As I have indicated earlier you seem to find it difficult to > reconcile concepts with realities. If you give direct replies to the > examples I have given it will help the dilaogue. I repeat one more > time: I gave the example of a bhikkhu who was disrobed for asking an > executioner to make the death cut extra clean and fast (the bhikkhu > wanted to spare the man from suffering). The bhikkhu committed > parijika as the executioner did make the blow faster than normal. You > replied that this was mere monks rules (or something like that), > whereas I say that this is a clear example of heavy akusala kamma > path. Could you say why you think that this case was a mere rule? > -------------- > KEN: Is there a Vinaya rule that prohibits a monk from advising someone to > kill? I assume there is. There is a rule for just about everything > else. In any case, it can only be a rule. Akusala kamma-patha is not > a conversation between a monk and an executioner; it is a fleeting > paramattha dhamma. A conversation, if it exists at all, can only be > something permanent (lasting for a period of time) satisfactory > (useful for a purpose of some kind) and controlled (by the people > taking part in it). ____________ RK:The concepts in this story are like shadows of the paramattha dhammas. This vinaya rule is there because there must be akusala kamma when, no matter how apparently well intentioned, one advises speedy dispacth of another being. The vinaya springs directly from the Buddha's insight. Robert #70293 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 10:21 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) bhavana rjkjp1 Dear Dieter Good to see you here! robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Dear Nina (and friends), > > sorry, I should have already introduced myself .. > yes #70294 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 3, 2007 10:22 pm Subject: Drunk and Drugged is always Blurred and Blinded! bhikkhu5 Friends: Any Intoxication Weakens & Corrupts the Mind! Being Drunk and/or Drugged is always being Blurred and Blinded... While drunk/drugged can one know what is best for oneself? NO! While drunk/drugged can one know what is best for others? NO! While drunk/drugged can one ever be respected by others? NO! While drunk/drugged can one be truly upright & respectable? NO! While drunk/drugged can one do a really good & valuable job? NO! While drunk/drugged can one enjoy the result of a good job? NO! While drunk/drugged can one meditate well and absorbed? NO! While drunk/drugged can one study, reflect, and reason well? NO! While drunk/drugged can one remember, and recollect well? NO! While drunk/drugged can one make any progress spiritually? NO! While drunk/drugged can one make progress professionally? NO! While drunk/drugged can one make any progress personally? NO! Is there any advantage or good at all in being drunk/drugged? NO! Is being just a little drunk/drugged just little evil or tiny good? NO! Is there any valid excuse for going completely clean & clear? NO! Will those who regurgitates this medicine ever be healed at all? NO! Is social and economic fall certain by being drunk/drugged? YES! Is the sadness of a spoiled life sure by being drunk/drugged? YES! Is bodily and mental decay severe by being drunk/drugged? YES! Is one made into an addicted zombie by being drunk/drugged? YES! Is one's behaviour often sub-human by being drunk/drugged? YES! Is the future kammic effect of inebriation insanity/stupidity? YES! Is being drunk and or drugged thus quite self-destructive? YES! Is being drunk and or drugged thus indeed quite irrational? YES! Is being drunk and or drugged literally the Way to Hell? YES! Is complete abstinence from all intoxication a VICTORY? YES! Who is the Winner? You and all other beings you contact! YES! The 5th precept laid down by the Buddha for all was therefore: Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami. I hereby accept to refrain from drinks & drugs making one careless. The Blessed Buddha further explained this avoidance by: Abandoning the use of intoxicants, the disciple of the Noble Ones abstains from taking intoxicants. Doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from harm to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and from oppression. This is the fifth gift, the 5th great gift, original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, all unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning, that is not open to any suspicion, that never will be open to any suspicion, and is recognized by every knowledgeable contemplative & recluse. And this is the 8th reward of merit, reward of skilfulness, nourishment of happiness, human as divine, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, leading to what is desirable & attractive, leading to what is pleasurable and appealing. Leading to the Welfare and to Happiness of all living Beings... Source: Anguttara Nikaya 8.39: Abhisanda Sutta: Rewards! http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.039.than.html Drunk and Drugged is always Blurred and Blinded! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * #70295 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. nilovg Hi Howard, I shall add a few things when writing to Han about suttamaya and cintamaya being also bhaavanaa. Nina. Op 3-apr-2007, om 22:53 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I do > understand that considering, contemplating, mulling over, > attempting to undeand is > all part of it. I really didn'an to suggest otherwise, and I'm > sorry for > being unclear. (I do still strongly disagree that this is the only > way, though. > ;-) #70296 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 3:04 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 143, 144 and Tiika nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 143, 144. Intro: the Visuddhimagga deals in the following sections with someone born in a happy destiny, and this is here a ruupa-brahma plane or an aruupa-brahma plane. They are reborn according to the kamma they performed in the past. This may be sense sphere kamma or the stage of jhaana they attained. If the jhaana they cultivated does not decline, it can produce rebirth in the appropriate plane of existence. ----------- Text Vis. 143: But in the case of another who is in a happy destiny and has obtained exalted [consciousness] through earth-kasina jhana, etc., at the time of his death there comes into focus at the mind door the sense-sphere profitable kamma or the sign of the kamma or the sign of the destiny, or else the sign of the earth kasina, etc., or also the exalted consciousness, or else there comes into focus a superior object of the eye or ear that is a cause for profitable rebirth. When the consciousnesses ending in determining have arisen in due succession, there arise in him impulsions numbering five because of slowing down due to the nearness of death. But in those who belong to an exalted destiny there is no registration. ---------- N: As we have seen, retention or registration (tadaaramma.na citta) only occurs in the sensuous planes of existence, and only in the processes of cittas experiencing sense objects. ---------- Text Vis.: So the one death consciousness arises next to the impulsion and making the life-continuum's objective field its object. At the end of that, rebirth-linking consciousness arises located in one of the happy destinies of the sense sphere or exalted sphere, and having as its object whichever one among the aforesaid objects has appeared. This is the kind of rebirth-linking with a 'past', 'present', or 'not-so-classifiable' object next to death consciousness in a happy destiny with a 'not-so-classifiable' object. ------- N: As we have seen, the objects of the ruupajhaanacittas are called 'not-so-classifiable' (navattabbaaramma.na). When the rebirth- consciousness, the bhavangacittas and the death-consciousness of the life that is ending are ruupaavacara vipaakacittas, the object they experience is 'not-so-classifiable'. The object of the rebirth- consciousness of the following life can be past, present or 'not-so- classifiable'. The object of rebirth-consciousness in a sense sphere can be past or present, and the object of rebirth-consciousness which is the result of ruupa-jhaanacitta and arises in a ruupa brahma plane is 'not-so- classifiable'. Thus here we see that a person in a ruupabrahma plane can be reborn in a sensuous plane or again in a ruupabrahma plane. --------- Text Vis.144: Rebirth-linking next to immaterial-sphere death should be understood in this way too. This is how rebirth-linking occurs with a 'past', 'present', or 'not-so-classifiable' object next to death consciousness in a happy destiny with a 'past' or 'not-so- classifiable' object. ------------ N: Someone in an aruupa-brahma plane has bhavangacittas and death- consciousness experiencing a past object or a 'not-so-classifiable' object. As we have seen, (Vis. Ch X, 24-45), there are four stages of aruupa-jhaana: the Sphere of Boundless Space, the Sphere of Boundless Consciousness, the Sphere of Nothingness and the Sphere of Neither Perception nor Non-Perception. There are four types of aruupaavacara kusala cittas which produce as rebirth-consciousness the corresponding aruupaavacara vipaakacittas that experience the same object as the aruupaavacara kusala cittas that produced them. The aruupaavacara kusala cittas of the first stage and the third stage have concepts as objects and they produce aruupaavacara vipaakacittas that have the same concepts as objects, called: not-so-classifiable objects. The aruupa-jhaanacitta of the second stage has as meditation subject the ‘base consisting of boundless consciousness’, which is the jhaanacitta that occurred previously with boundless space as object and which has fallen away and is thus past. Evenso, the aruupa- jhaanacitta of the fourth stage, the base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception, has as object the jhaanacitta that occurred having ‘nothingness’ as meditation subject and that has fallen away. Thus, the second and the fourth aruupa-jhaanacitta have a past object. --------- The Tiika explains that there cannot be a pa.tisandhicitta that is ruupaavacara vipaakacitta after the death-consciousness that is aruupaavacara vipaakacitta. We read in T.A. (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 211): < Following decease in the formless realms, there is relinking in the formless realms, though not in a lower formless realm, since beings in a higher formless realm do not accumulate kamma of one lower. > The Tiika to the Visuddhimagga gives an example which illustrates that there cannot be rebirth in a lower aruupa brahmaplane. When the cuticitta of the life that is ending is of the fourth aruupajhaana, thus with a past object, then the pa.tisandhicitta that is aruupaavacara vipaakacitta could not be the result of a lower stage of aruupa jhaana, with a 'not-so-classifiable' object, such as the object experienced by the aruupaavacaracitta of the third stage. We read further on in T.A.: Thus, after having been in an aruupa brahma plane, one may be reborn in a sensuous plane, but then one is reborn with alobha, adosa and pa~n~naa. The Tiika explains that there can be according to circumstances a rebirth-consciousness that is the result of aruupajhaanacitta with a past object or a 'not-so-classifiable' object, and rebirth- consciousness of the sense sphere with a past or present object. ********* Jhaanacitta can only produce its appropriate result in a next life, thus, as rebirth-consciousness, bhavangacitta and cuticitta. When one cultivates jhaana and jhaana does not decline there are conditions for the last javanacittas to be jhaanacittas. In that case there can be rebirth-consciousness that is ruupaavacara vipaakacitta or aruupaavacara vipaakacitta. As we have seen, when aruupajhaana that has been cultivated produces result, it does so accordingly: aruupajhaana of a particular stage cannot produce result of a lower stage of aruupajhaana. --------- Conclusion: we learn from these passages that kamma produces result in a manner that is exactly in accordance with that kamma. It produces result in the appropriate plane of existence. When daana is the kamma that produces rebirth, there will be rebirth in a sensuous plane of existence. Daana is sense sphere kamma. When one gives generously, one experiences objects through the senses while thinking of the gift and the receiver. We read in the ‘Book of Analysis’ (p. 541, 542) that the development of the different stages of ruupajhaana to a low degree, to an intermediate degree and to a superior degree condition rebirth in different kinds of planes with different age-limits. Thus the result is exactly according to the kamma that produces it. We read in the ‘Book of Analysis’ about many diversities in the development of the fourth jhaana which condition different rebirths: <1027. Having developed the fourth jhaana, because of diversity of objects, because of diversity of attention, because of diversity of wish, because of diversity of aim, because of diversity of decision, because of diversity of aspiration, because of diversity of wisdom , some are born into the company of Asa~n~nasatta devas....> Then different planes of existence are mentioned with increasingly higher age limits. The age limit of those born in the highest aruupa brahma plane is inconceivably long: eighty-four thousand kappas. But even life in such a plane does not last. If one has not eradicated the latent tendencies of defilements lobha and ignorance still arise in that plane and there is no end to the cycle. We read in the verse (1029): (Beings) Thrown up by power of merit Go to existence in the planes of desire and form, (Though) Reaching even the highest existence They come back again to unpleasant existence. (Even) Beings having such long life Fall from exhaustion of life, No existence is permanent, Thus was said by the Great Sage. Therefore indeed the wise who are prudent, Skilful, thinkers of betterment, To be free from old age and death Develop the highest path. Having developed the pure path, Merging into, leading to Nibbana, Comprehending all defilements Free from defilements they attain to final release.> ******* Nina. #70297 From: connie Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 6:03 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (48) nichiconn Dear Sisters' Groupies, the 2nd half of 30 following Pa.taacaaraa: ;) connie Atha taa bhikkhuniyo tassaa theriyaa ovaade .thatvaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa bhaavanaaya kamma.m karontiyo ~naa.nassa paripaaka.m gatattaa hetusampannataaya ca saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa ovaadagaathaahi saddhi.m- 119. "Tassaa taa vacana.m sutvaa, pa.taacaaraaya saasana.m; paade pakkhaalayitvaana, ekamanta.m upaavisu.m; cetosamathamanuyuttaa, aka.msu buddhasaasana.m. 120. "Rattiyaa purime yaame, pubbajaatimanussaru.m; rattiyaa majjhime yaame, dibbacakkhu.m visodhayu.m; rattiyaa pacchime yaame, tamokhandha.m padaalayu.m. 121. "U.t.thaaya paade vandi.msu, kataa te anusaasanii; inda.mva devaa tidasaa, sa"ngaame aparaajita.m; purakkhatvaa vihassaama, tevijjaamha anaasavaa"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi.msu. Then those bhikkhuniis, standing firm in the instruction of that therii, established insight, devoted themselves to mental development; and through having brought their knowledge to maturity and through the maturing of the prerequisites, they obtained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. {RD: with thorough grasp of the Norm in letter and in spirit.} Then looking over their attainment, they spoke these verses together as verses of instruction: 119. The heard her utterance, Pa.taacaaraa's teaching. They washed their feet and sat down on one side. Intent on peace of mind, they did the Buddha's teaching. 120. In the first watch of the night they recollected that they had been born before. In the middle watch of the night they had purified the divine eye. In the last watch of the night they tore asunder the mass of darkness [of ignorance]. 121. Standing up, they paid homage to her feet. "We have taken your advice. We shall dwell honouring you like the thirty devas honouring Inda, who is unconquered in battle. We have the triple knowledge. We are without taints." RD: The will of her who spake - Pa.taacaaraa -- The thirty Sisters heard and swift obeyed. Bathing their feet, they sat them down apart, And gave their souls to spiritual calm, Fulfilling thus the bidding of the Lord. (119) While passed the first watch of the night, there rose Long memories of the bygone line of lives; While passed the second watch, the Heavenly Eye, Purview celestial, they clarified; While passed the last watch of the night, they burst And rent aside the gloom of ignorance. (120) Then rising to their feet they hailed her blest: 'Fulfille'd is thy will! and thee we take, And like to Sakka o'er the thrice ten gods, Chieftain unconquered in celestial wars, We place thee as our Chief, and so shall live. The threefold Wisdom have we gotten now. From deadly drugs our souls are purified.' (121) Tattha tassaa taa vacana.m sutvaa, pa.taacaaraaya saasananti tassaa pa.taacaaraaya theriyaa kilesapa.tisattusaasana.t.thena saasanabhuuta.m ovaadavacana.m, taa ti.msamattaa bhikkhuniyo sutvaa pa.tissutvaa sirasaa sampa.ticchitvaa. 119. There, they heard her (tassaa) utterance (vacana.m). Pa.taacaaraa's teaching (Pa.taacaaraaya saasana.m) means: they, the group of thirty bhikkhunis, heard the word of instruction (avaada-vacana.m) consisting of the teachings (saasana-bhuuta.m) in the sense of the teachings opposed to her (tassaa), Therii Pa.taacaaraa's (Pa.taacaaraaya theriyaa), defilements (kilesa-pa.tisattu-saasana.t.thena). U.t.thaaya paade vandi.msu, kataa te anusaasaniiti yathaasampa.ticchita.m tassaa saasana.m a.t.thi.m katvaa manasi katvaa yathaaphaasuka.t.thaane nisiiditvaa bhaaventiyo bhaavana.m matthaka.m paapetvaa attanaa adhigatavisesa.m aarocetu.m nisinnaasanato u.t.thaaya tassaa santika.m gantvaa "mahaatheri tavaanusaasanii yathaanusi.t.tha.m amhehi kataa"ti vatvaa tassaa paade pa~ncapati.t.thitena vandi.msu. Inda.mva devaa tidasaa, sa"ngaame aparaajitanti devaasurasa"ngaame aparaajita.m vijitaavi.m inda.m taavati.msaa devaa viya mahaatheri, maya.m ta.m purakkhatvaa viharissaama a~n~nassa kattabbassa abhaavato. Tasmaa "tevijjaamha anaasavaa"ti attano kata~n~nubhaava.m pavedentii idameva taasa.m a~n~naabyaakara.na.m ahosi. Ya.m panettha atthato avibhatta.m, ta.m he.t.thaa vuttanayameva. Ti.msamattaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. 121. Standing up they paid homage to her feet means: they paid attention to, were attentive to her teaching as they had recieved it; and as they sat in a convenient place, they attained the summit of mental development. In order to tell of the distinction they had attained by themselves, they rose from their seats and went into her presence. And they said, "Great therii, your teaching has been accomplished by us in accordance to what was taught." Then they paid homage at her feet with the fivefold porstration. Like the thirty (tidasaa) devas honouring Indra, who is unconquered in battle (sa"ngaame) means: just ast he devas of the Taavati.msa realm with Inda, who was unconquered, victorious in the battle of the devas and Asuras (devaasura-sa"ngaame), we shall dwell honouring you because of the absence of anything else to be done. Therefore, We have the triple knowledge. We are without taints means: they made known the face that they were grateful, and this was indeed their declaration of perfect knowledge. And for the matter that has not been analyzed here, the meaning has been explained already. Here ends the commentary on the verses of the group of thirty theriis. #70298 From: connie Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 6:18 am Subject: Re: A Meditation Tip nichiconn Omigosh, Howard, I ask a question at 3:42pm and you, 3 time zones ahead of me, answer it at 11:50am on the same day! You must be psychic... that's good because you'll know i'm not just badgering you but am really at a loss here. > I'm almost afraid to ask, but is the following 'permitting' an example > of "control"? > > H: I expand my attention to that sensation and to the body as a whole, > permitting that sensation to suffuse the entire body; with that, the > meditation deepens noticeably and becomes effortless. > =========================== H: I hardly know what to say. It is neither a controlling nor a non-controlling. It happens. There is intention. There is also no one doing anything. Does that make sense to you? It does to me unless I stop to think about it! ;-) ======= connie: I'm thrown off even worse now with "intention"... let me forget that a minute. Here's this sensation. Ok. And that's the end of my fine-ness and the beginning of my thousand puzzlings. If you were a meditation teacher, I'd ask about expanding attention and whether it is still a breath meditation at this point, but mostly I want to focus on this "permitting that sensation to suffuse" phrase. Or just the word "permitting"... what are you saying here? If I'm off the wall to you here or just my frustrating, annoying self, just forget it & don't feel like you have to beat your head against a wall trying to get through to me. peace, connie #70299 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 6:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) bhavana moellerdieter Dear Robert, good to meet you again ! I was recently thinking of you when I wrote following feedback to the German Magazine Spiegel, wondering to which extent you would agree with me .. ;-) quote: Sir, there is a wrong information about the essence of Buddhism provided by stating the First Noble Truth as : a.. The truth that life means suffering (e.g. birth, death) Would that be true, there would be no escape from suffering in this life and enlightenment impossible ( i.e. so- called Arahant , the highest state of the Noble Ones). In fact the statement follows ( e.g. ) the erroneus view of the Catholic Church , claiming that Buddhism is a total pessimistic Weltansicht. Perhaps the occasion of H.H. the Dalai Lama 's visit to Hamburg middle of this year may offer the opportunity to get a correct understanding. unquote with Metta Dieter #70300 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip moellerdieter Hi Howard, thanks for sharing ! I tried whenever I recognized a pleasant feeling during my sittings to let this sensation suffuce the entire body but so far with no remarkable results. Your message supports my motivation to take care for it further on.. ;-) Certainly you will know a respective sutta source , in which this suffucing is explicitly mentioned.. nevertheless I like to quote from D.N. 2 (translation Thanissaro Bhikkhu): Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder - saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without - would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. "This is a fruit of the contemplative life, visible here and now, more excellent than the previous ones and more sublime. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought and evaluation, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation - internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure. unquote with Metta Dieter #70301 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] a meditation tip. nilovg Dear Han and Howard, There are ten pu~n~na kiriya vatthus, and among these is bhaavanaa: studying the dhamma, explaining the dhamma to others, samatha and vipassanaa. I think that listening, reading and considering (cinta) are included in studying the dhamma. I see the study of the Dhamma as studying on the level of pariyatti and also studying with awareness the reality of the present moment. I see bhaavana as a mental activity, done when kusala citta with pa~n~naa arises. This is not without the right conditions: meritorious deeds done in the past, listening to true Dhamma as it is explained by a kalyana mitta. Bhaavana: there is no special time for it, it is momentary, it depends on the citta with pa~n~naa. Any time can be bhaavana time. I come more and more to the conclusion that all these classifications, like sutta and cinta, are not rigid, as I said. Take dana as discussed in your dana corner: also sila can be seen as dana: you spare the lives of living beings and thereby give them the gift of life, or the opportunity to live without danger. Or siila: when reading the Visuddhimagga we see that samatha and vipassana, even developed to the level of lokuttara pa~n~naa can be seen as siila. Siila is the practice in its widest sense. ------------ Now Howard's part: H:quotes: H: ------ N: As you often said: you find that meditation, including awareness of breath helps to understand the dhamma more clearly. Sorry, if I misunderstood you here. Also for samatha listening is necessary, it is indispensable, I would say. Otherwise misunderstandings are bound to arise. With: it is the only way I mean: it is indispensable and it is the beginning of samatha and vipassana. For the development of what is kusala we need to know when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta such as citta rooted in lobha. The Abhidhamma can help us: we learn that rapture and happy feeling can arise with kusala citta as well as with akusala citta. We can listen to this, but, as you explained to Ken, we have to check ourselves what is true. As Kh Sujin often says: we have to develop our own understanding, we have to be our own refuge. When you find that you experience bliss and happy feeling during meditation, you have to find out yourself: is this kusala citta or is this akusala citta with clinging. Nobody else can tell you, only you yourself. But it is very urgent to find out, otherwise we accumulate more clinging. To return to: is listening the only way, I often answer: also the development of all the perfections is urgent. Kh Sujin, as you know, has written a whole book on it. Thus, the way is not: only listening, according to her. Take dana: as was discussed with Phil: there are many ways of dana. Also giving one's time and attention to others is dana. Then one does not think of oneself, and how helpful this is. But again, by listening we learn what kusala is, what dana is. We have to listen again and again, because we are not like those people in the Buddha's time who could attain enlightenment during one discourse. We need so much endurance and perseverance. We have to listen to have right understanding of the meditation subjects of samatha. What is breath exactly? It has to be known. How is this subject to be developed? It is very subtle and one can easily take for breath what is not breath. I have written about this and posted here several times. See Rob's forum under breath. I want to avoid repetitions. Nina. Op 3-apr-2007, om 23:20 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I agree, but it is for me the first time that I > heard suta and cinta are also bhavana. I must make a > note of it. #70302 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 3:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Meditation Tip upasaka_howard Hi, Connie - In a message dated 4/4/07 9:19:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, connieparker@... writes: > Omigosh, Howard, > I ask a question at 3:42pm and you, 3 time zones ahead of me, answer it at > 11:50am on the same day! You must be psychic... that's good because you'll > know i'm not just badgering you but am really at a loss here. > > >I'm almost afraid to ask, but is the following 'permitting' an example > >of "control"? > > > >H: I expand my attention to that sensation and to the body as a whole, > >permitting that sensation to suffuse the entire body; with that, the > >meditation deepens noticeably and becomes effortless. > > > =========================== > H: I hardly know what to say. It is neither a controlling nor a > non-controlling. It happens. There is intention. There is also no one > doing anything. > Does that make sense to you? It does to me unless I stop to think about > it! ;-) > ======= > connie: I'm thrown off even worse now with "intention"... let me forget > that a minute. > Here's this sensation. Ok. ------------------------------- Howard: OK. :-) ---------------------------- > And that's the end of my fine-ness and the beginning of my thousand > puzzlings. If you were a meditation teacher, I'd ask about expanding > attention and whether it is still a breath meditation at this point, but > mostly I want to focus on this "permitting that sensation to suffuse" > phrase. > --------------------------- Howard: Yes, if I *were* a meditation teacher. Of course, I'm not. What I will say is that some teachers translate 'anapanasati' as "mindfulness *with* breathing" rather than "mindfulness *of* breathing" - Buddhadasa for one. Thich Nhat Hanh also sems to look at it that way, and Ch'an meditation on the breath works that way. In my opinion, the Anapanasati Sutta does not teach a meditation *fixed* on the breath. Also, in that sutta, while a few folks interpret <> to mean the *whole breath* by "the entire body", I interpret "the entire body" to mean literally the entire body - all sensations arising therein. Also, when he goes on to speak of rapture I take that to refer to the very pleasant bodily sensation that arises, and I relate it to the jhana instructions elsewhere for suffusing the entire body like kneading of dough throughout. ----------------------------------------------- Or just the word "permitting"... what are you saying here?> > If I'm off the wall to you here or just my frustrating, annoying self, > just forget it &don't feel like you have to beat your head against a wall > trying to get through to me. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I know I'm not being clear on this. One doesn't create the pleasant sensation throughout the body. I suspect it is already there, but subliminal until, after feeling it in the limbs, one expands one's attention to the entire body. There *is* some thinking involved in doing that expansion of attention, and there is a willing (an impulse), but there is no sense of an artificial, self-conscious planning to it, because it is just a natural development. The restriction of attention to just part of bodily phenomena is simply felt as inadequate at one point, and there is the inclination to open up. And even the opening up to the body as a whole starts to be seen as an inadequate restriction to a single doorway. It becomes natural to be aware through all the senses. (Awareness through all the senses was of course there to some extent from the outset, but at this point it starts really come to the fore.) Sorry I can't make this clearer. -------------------------------------------- > peace, > connie > ====================== With metta, Howard #70303 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 4:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] a meditation tip. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Han) - In a message dated 4/4/07 10:17:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear Han and Howard, > > There are ten pu~n~na kiriya vatthus, and among these is bhaavanaa: > studying the dhamma, explaining the dhamma to others, samatha and > vipassanaa. I think that listening, reading and considering (cinta) > are included in studying the dhamma. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly! --------------------------------------- I see the study of the Dhamma as > > studying on the level of pariyatti and also studying with awareness > the reality of the present moment. -------------------------------------- Howard: I use the phrase "study of the Dhamma" as pariyatti, and involved with concept: the teaching/doctrine, and I see "studying with awareness the reality of the present moment" as patipatti following upon the pariyatti, applying it. -------------------------------------- > I see bhaavana as a mental activity, done when kusala citta with > pa~n~naa arises. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly *what* mental activity? I say it consists of many, making it not a paramattha dhamma. ------------------------------------- This is not without the right conditions: > > meritorious deeds done in the past, listening to true Dhamma as it is > explained by a kalyana mitta. > Bhaavana: there is no special time for it, it is momentary, it > depends on the citta with pa~n~naa. Any time can be bhaavana time. > I come more and more to the conclusion that all these > classifications, like sutta and cinta, are not rigid, as I said. Take > dana as discussed in your dana corner: also sila can be seen as dana: > you spare the lives of living beings and thereby give them the gift > of life, or the opportunity to live without danger. Or siila: when > reading the Visuddhimagga we see that samatha and vipassana, even > developed to the level of lokuttara pa~n~naa can be seen as siila. > Siila is the practice in its widest sense. > ------------ -------------------------------------- Howard: I suspect that you consider bhavana to be wisdom - pa~n~na. Perhaps "investigation of dhammas" refers to wisdom - perhaps, but, Nina, not *eveything* is pa~n~na. -------------------------------------- > > Now Howard's part: > > H:quotes: pa~n~naa. > Listening, considering and understanding what one hears.> > > H: understand that considering, contemplating, mulling over, attempting > to understand is > all part of it. I really didn't suggest otherwise, and I'm sorry for > being unclear. (I do still strongly disagree that this is the only > way, though.;-)> > ------ > N: As you often said: you find that meditation, including awareness > of breath helps to understand the dhamma more clearly. Sorry, if I > misunderstood you here. -------------------------------------- Howard: Excellent! I apologize again for having been unclear before. -------------------------------------- > > Also for samatha listening is necessary, it is indispensable, I would > say. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Me, too!!!!!! ------------------------------------- Otherwise misunderstandings are bound to arise. With: it is the > > only way I mean: it is indispensable and it is the beginning of > samatha and vipassana. > ------------------------------------ Howard: I quite agree. It is indispensable. Without it there is no practice, no possibility of "progress", and certainly no liberation. ------------------------------------ For the development of what is kusala we need > > to know when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta such as > citta rooted in lobha. The Abhidhamma can help us: we learn that > rapture and happy feeling can arise with kusala citta as well as with > akusala citta. We can listen to this, but, as you explained to Ken, > we have to check ourselves what is true. As Kh Sujin often says: we > have to develop our own understanding, we have to be our own refuge. > When you find that you experience bliss and happy feeling during > meditation, you have to find out yourself: is this kusala citta or is > this akusala citta with clinging. Nobody else can tell you, only you > yourself. But it is very urgent to find out, otherwise we accumulate > more clinging. > ------------------------------------- Howard: That's a fact, Nina. Though error is possible, it generally *is* possible to tell, Nina, when practicing properly, with that practice based on Buddhadhamma - I have no doubt about this. ------------------------------------ > To return to: is listening the only way, I often answer: also the > development of all the perfections is urgent. Kh Sujin, as you know, > has written a whole book on it. Thus, the way is not: only listening, > according to her. > Take dana: as was discussed with Phil: there are many ways of dana. > Also giving one's time and attention to others is dana. Then one does > not think of oneself, and how helpful this is. But again, by > listening we learn what kusala is, what dana is. We have to listen > again and again, because we are not like those people in the Buddha's > time who could attain enlightenment during one discourse. We need so > much endurance and perseverance. > We have to listen to have right understanding of the meditation > subjects of samatha. What is breath exactly? It has to be known. ---------------------------------- Howard: When looking carefully enough, in a state of calm and clarity, there IS no breath, per se, but only warmth, coolness, motion, touch sensations, and so on, and the conditioned interplay of these among themselves and with repect to other phenomena such as ease and its opposite, volition, thinking, and so on becomes clear as well. ---------------------------------- How > > is this subject to be developed? It is very subtle and one can easily > take for breath what is not breath. I have written about this and > posted here several times. See Rob's forum under breath. I want to > avoid repetitions. > Nina. > > ==================== With metta, Howard #70304 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 11:06 am Subject: Rupas, Ch 6, no 3 nilovg Dear friends, There may also be the performing of akusala kamma through bodily intimation, for example when someone gives by gesture orders to kill. There may be kusala cittas that condition bodily intimation when we, for example, stretch out our arms to welcome people to our home, when we stretch out our hand in order to give something, when we point out the way to someone who is in a strange city, when we by our gestures express courtesy or when we show respect to someone who deserves respect. However, there may also be selfish motives while we are doing so, or we may be insincere, and then there are akusala cittas that condition bodily intimation. More knowledge about citta and rúpas which are conditioned by citta can remind us to be aware of whatever reality appears, also while gesticulating. Then there is at such a moment no opportunity for akusala citta. Our intentions are not only communicated by gestures, but also by speech. Speech intimation (vacíviññatti) is a kind of rúpa, originated by citta. The “Dhammasangaùi” ( Ch II, § 637) states: What is that rúpa which is intimation by language (vacíviññatti)? That speech, voice, enunciation, utterance, noise, making noises, language as articulate speech, which expresses a thought whether good, bad, or indeterminate - this is called language. And that intimation, that making known, the state of having made known by language - this is that rúpa which constitutes intimation by language. When someone’s intention is intimated through speech it is then intelligible to others. The meaning of what is intimated is known after reflection about it, thus, it is cognizable through the mind- door. Speech intimation itself does not know anything, it is rúpa. The “Visuddhimagga” (XIV, 62) gives the following definition of speech intimation: Verbal intimation is the mode (conformation) and the alteration (deformation) in the consciousness-originated earth-element that causes that occurrence of speech utterance which mode and alteration are a condition for the knocking together of clung to matter [4 ]. Its function is to display intention. It is manifested as the cause of voice in speech. Its proximate cause is the consciousness- originated earth element.... -------- footnote 4: According to the Commentary to the Visuddhimagga, the “Paramattha Mañjúså” (452): “The function (knocking together) of the vocal apparatus (clung to matter)”. ******* Nina. #70305 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 11:14 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 11 nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha taught the monks, the nuns and the layfollowers, men and women, to develop satipaììhåna, each in their own situation and each following their own life style, so that they would see dhamma as dhamma. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Eights, Ch VII, § 10, Earthquakes) that the Buddha, while he was at Cåpåla Shrine, gave Ånanda three times the opportunity to ask him to live on for his full life-span. Ånanda did not ask him to do so, since his heart was possessed by Måra. After Ånanda had left, Måra came and said to the Buddha that he should now pass away. After his enlightenment the Buddha had said to Måra that he would not pass away until his disciples were able to practise the Dhamma and to proclaim it. Since this was now the case Måra asked him to pass away. The Buddha answered that he would pass away after three months. We read that he “cast away the sum of life” and that there was a great earthquake. In this sutta we are reminded of what is to be expected of the Buddha’s followers. We read that the Buddha had, after his enlightenment, said to Måra: I shall not pass away, O Evil One, until my monks shall be disciples, learned, trained and courageous, who have attained peace from bondage, who are erudite, Dhamma-bearers, perfect in righteousness of Dhamma, perfect in the right practice, who live in accordance with Dhamma- till they have taken Dhamma as their teacher and can proclaim it, teach it and make it known, can establish it, open it, analyze it and make it plain to others- till they can confute any counter- teaching which has arisen, and which may well be confuted by Dhamma, and can set forth sublime Dhamma. We read that the Buddha had said exactly the same about the nuns and the layfollowers, men and women. The commentary to this sutta, the “Manorathapúraùí, explains “erudite”, in Påli: bahussutta, as having listened to the three Pitakas (Parts of the teachings). The commentary then adds that one is bahussutta as to “pariyatti”, the theory, and as to “pativedha”, the realisation of the truth. One should be “Dhamma-bearer” in both ways. This reminds us that it is not enough to only listen and read. There should also be the application of what one has heard so that the truth can be directly experienced. The disciples should be perfect in righteousness of Dhamma. We read that the commentary states:”They practise the Way of vipassanå which is the Dhamma fitting to be ariyan Dhamma.” The Buddha’s followers should take Dhamma as their teacher. ******* Nina. #70306 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 4:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] a meditation tip. hantun1 Dear Nina (and Howard), Thank you very much, Nina, for your further clarification on the subject. I really appreciate it. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han and Howard, > There are ten pu~n~na kiriya vatthus, and among > these is bhaavanaa: #70307 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 4:14 pm Subject: Daana Corner (33) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, It is taken from “Giving from the Heart” by M. O'C. Walshe. It is being presented in four parts. The following is 4 of 4 parts. Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ The more we consider the question of dana, the more aspects emerge, and we see that there are many ways of giving, skillfully or otherwise. We may conclude with an amusing canonical example of the alleged results of relatively unskillful giving. In the Payasi Sutta (No. 23 of the Digha Nikaya) we read of the debate between the skeptic Prince Payasi, who did not believe in an afterlife, and the Venerable Kumara-Kassapa. After listening to a brilliant series of parables from the monk, Payasi declares himself converted, and decides to establish a charity "for ascetics and brahmans, wayfarers, beggars and the needy," and he appoints the young brahman Uttara to organize the distribution. (N.B. This is the correct version — there is an error in the Rhys Davids translation at his point.) Uttara complains that the food and clothing he is called upon to distribute are of such poor quality that Payasi would not touch them himself, and Payasi finally gives him leave to supply "food as I eat and clothes as I wear." At the conclusion of the sutta, we are told of the rewards the two men received after death. Payasi, who had established the charity grudgingly, was indeed reborn in a heavenly world, but in the very lowest, that of the Four Great Kings, where he was lodged in the empty Serisaka mansion (vimana). Here, indeed, he was visited by the Venerable Gavampati, an arahant who made a habit of taking his siesta in the lower heavens. And so the story was brought back to earth. But Uttara, who had reorganized the charity and given from the heart, was born in a higher heaven, among the Thirty-three Gods. Probably few Westerners will give in order to be reborn among the Thirty-three Gods, and perhaps the only reward some people look to is an easing of the conscience: being aware of some particular need — of which the case of Ethiopia is the outstanding current example — people feel unable to live with themselves if they do not give something. This is certainly better than hoping for a heavenly reward, but an easy conscience, too, may perhaps sometimes be purchased a little too easily. Best let the giving itself be its own reward, and leave it at that! End of “Giving from the Heart” by M. O'C. Walshe. “Generosity: The Inward Dimension” by Nina van Gorkom will start from next post. Metta, Han #70308 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 5:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry kenhowardau Hi Scott, Putting the Dhamma into one's own words is, I think, a necessary part of the learning process. Not always pretty, but necessary. :-) ----------------- S: > Scott: "I'm not likely going to articulate this well..." I knew I wasn't likely going to articulate that well... K: "I think you are holding out an olive branch trying to unite the formal meditators with the no-controllers. That's very kind, I am sure, but it won't wash. :-)" Scott: No, its worse than that: I gave my own thoughts about Dhamma, which are inevitably garbled. But lets see if we can salvage this. Me: "Can it be said that if one finds oneself 'doing' or 'practising' - given that this 'doing' is conditioned by Right Understanding - that this is bhaavanaa?" Scott: By right understanding I mean 'samma-di.t.thi'. By 'bhaavanaa' I mean mental development in the broad sense. By 'doing' or 'practising' I'm referring to the mental factors These are not things one uses to further one's practise. These are dhammas which arise with citta and serve to 'flavour' a given mind-moment. One can't make one's self have 'energy' and then use this to go 'meditate'. -------------------- That's clear now, thanks: contrary to my worst suspicions you were talking about the *momentary* reality taught by the Buddha. --------------- S: > Right understanding, again, is not 'me-seeing-things-correctly-so -that-I-can-go-and-act-accordingly-and-better-than -the-next-guy-who -sees-things-wrongly-and-is-out-there-acting- accordingly'. These are impersonal dhammas, each with their own characteristics which, when present, condition things to happen, to put it simply. ----------------- Thank you for another fine example of putting the Dhamma into one's own - albeit severely hyphenated - words. :-) ---------------------------- S: > Me: "In other words, effort arises which conditions citta, which conditions a series of cittaa, I guess, including various mind-produced ruupaa (speech and bodily intimations) which can be mistaken for 'practise' done by someone? Yet mental development continues. If that makes sense at all..." ---------------------------- I'm sure it does make sense, although I'm not sure where it is leading. We can say that effort conditions citta (by co-nascence condition, for example) but can we say that effort in one citta conditions the arising of another citta (or a string of cittas)? The difficulty here, as I see it, is that we will get the idea of a course of action (which is a concept) being conditioned by a single effort and, therefore, being wholly good or wholly bad. ------------------------- S: > K: "You say, "given that this `doing' is conditioned by Right Understanding," but I don't think that can ever be given, can it?" Scott: Well, someone can't just say, 'Today I'm going to make myself have Right Understanding'. So, not a given in that sense. I think it has to arise to dispell Wrong View. I think these things just arise when they do, conditioned as they are, and when operative, would look to the deluded to be someone practising something. The dhammas themselves (and no, this does not mean that they are all little agents, this is just conventional language) become developed by their arising and falling away and strengthening. -------------------------- I like the way you say, "would look to the deluded to be someone practising something." That is the only way practice can be understood in the world of persisting entities, and it is the way we are trying to see past. We should also bear in mind that right practice does not always look like right practice. For example, a butcher in an abattoir can be practising harmlessness. We wouldn't know. Virati-cetasika arises, performs its functions, and disappears. It is all over in a trillionth of a second. ----------------------------------- S: > K: "Doing (carrying out a course of action) is a concept, and is recognised only in the conventionally known world. Concepts, being mere illusions, are neither conditioned nor not conditioned. Therefore, they cannot be bhavana, which is conditioned." Scott: See above. If that makes no sense, please help me clarify this. ------------------------------------ It seems right to me (for what that's worth) but I am still looking for an argument. :-) ---------------------------------------------- S: > K: "I agree that certain concepts tend to be associated with certain conditioned dhammas. For example, when there is dana there is often the concept of a gift being handed from one person to another. But that concept has no substance of its own. It could mean anything." What are the operative mental factors when it comes to daana? I don't have time to look at this. I'd suggest that these factors would all really be there functioning from moment to moment until an offering is made but there is no one who made an offering. The presence of these dhammas in succession is mental development. What do you think? ------------------------------------------------- My only concern is with your "dhammas in succession" idea. It might be something perfectly harmless, but there seems to be a danger it will lead away from the "momentary" aspect of reality. ("Shock, horror!" as James would say.) :-) Ken H #70309 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 7:30 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (47) bhavana rjkjp1 Dera Diter Nice you corrected Das Speigel but I think you should have written more..:) Robert #70310 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 7:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip rjkjp1 Dear Dieter In the sutta you quote the translation is a little misleading. The "body' refered to is actually the body of cetasikas, not rupa, if I remember correctly. In first jhaana it is, of course, impossible to perceive any physical data at all. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Howard, > thanks for sharing ! > I tried whenever I recognized a pleasant feeling during my sittings to let this sensation suffuce the entire body but so far with no remarkable results. > Your message supports my motivation to take care for it further on.. ;-) > > Certainly you will know a respective sutta source , in which this suffucing is explicitly mentioned.. nevertheless I like to quote from D.N. 2 (translation Thanissaro Bhikkhu): > > Quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder - saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without - would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. > #70311 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 7:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Meditation Tip hantun1 Dear Howard (and others), I like your drawing the distinction between "mindfulness *with* breathing" and "mindfulness *of* breathing". Burmese Sayadaws, comparing Mahaasatipathaana sutta and Aanaapaanasati sutta, mention the following similarities. (1) The First tetrad of Aanaapaanasati sutta is similar to kaayaanupassanaa. (2) The Second tetrad of Aanaapaanasati sutta is similar to vedanaanupassanaa. (3) The Third tetrad of Aanaapaanasati sutta is similar to cittaanupassanaa. (4) The Fourth tetrad of Aanaapaanasati sutta is similar to dhammaanupassanaa. Based on the above similarities, my personal opinion is that "mindfulness *with* breathing" is applicable to Second, Third, and Fourth tetrads of Aanaapaanasati sutta. But I think the contemplation on the First tetrad is "mindfulness *of* breathing". When one contemplates on the Second tetrad of Aanaapaanasati sutta, your interpretation of literally the entire body, and all sensations arising therein, I think, is correct since you are now contemplating vedanaanupassanaa. [5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture (piiti).' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure (sukha).' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication (citta-sankhaara).' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication (passambhayam citta-sankhaaram).' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html When you experience rapture (piiti) while contemplating the Second tetrad you will experience exactly what you have described, and I think you are then using "mindfulness *with* breathing". Howard: “Also, when he goes on to speak of rapture I take that to refer to the very pleasant bodily sensation that arises, and I relate it to the jhana instructions elsewhere for suffusing the entire body like kneading of dough throughout.” These are just my thoughts. Respectfully, Han --- upasaka@... wrote: > --------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, if I *were* a meditation teacher. Of > course, I'm not. What I will > say is that some teachers translate 'anapanasati' as > "mindfulness *with* > breathing" rather than "mindfulness *of* breathing" > - Buddhadasa for one. Thich > Nhat Hanh also sems to look at it that way, and > Ch'an meditation on the breath > works that way. In my opinion, the Anapanasati Sutta > does not teach a > meditation *fixed* on the breath. Also, in that > sutta, while a few folks interpret < trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the > entire body.' He trains > himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily > fabrication.' He trains himself, > 'I will breathe out calming the bodily > fabrication.'>> to mean the *whole > breath* by "the entire body", I interpret "the > entire body" to mean literally the > entire body - all sensations arising therein. Also, > when he goes on to speak of > rapture I take that to refer to the very pleasant > bodily sensation that > arises, and I relate it to the jhana instructions > elsewhere for suffusing the > entire body like kneading of dough throughout. > ----------------------------------------------- > #70312 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 8:13 pm Subject: Re: Conventional and paramattha: Leading to stream entry kenhowardau Hi Robert, ------- <. . .> RK:> So we certainly agree here. But what I see missing is appreciation of the usefulness of conventional explanations of Dhamma- QUOTE"""""The Buddhas have two kinds of discourse, the popular and the philosophical. Those relating to a being, a person, a deva, a brahma and so forth, are popular discourses, while those relating to impermanence,ill, soul-less, the aggregates, the elements, the senses, the application of mindfulness, the intent contemplation, and so forth, are discourses on highest meaning."""" -------- Do you think the popular kind would be of any use on its own? I don't. I can't see how it would amount to anything more than rite and ritual. I know that rites and rituals do have their uses, but we need to understand their ultimate ineffectuality. I can't imagine that the Buddha ever gave a popular talk to anyone without first impressing upon them that he was teaching them something new (something profound and difficult to see). ------------- RK: >You appreciate the latter teaching method but, correct me if I am wrong, don't get much out of the first(those relating to deva, a being, person)? -------------- There is a downside to getting too much out of the first. If I put great store by its infallibility (as I do by the latter method) I would have to defend it against sceptics. I would need to take a stance on issues that, as it is, I am really not interested in. As it is, I really don't care if (for example) rain clouds are, or are not, sent by devas: I don't care if the Buddha thought the world was flat (as some people say he did) or if he thought women should treat their parents-in-law like gods, (and so on). Seen in the light of the latter method, those individuals are llusory, anyway. There are really only namas and rupas. ------------------------- RK: > QUOTE""" But popular discourse they teach consistently and in conformity with truth according to the method selected. And highest-meaning discourse, too. `they teach consistently and in conformity with truth according to the method selected. Thus it is said: The Enlightened One, best of speakers, spoke two kinds of truth, namely, the popular and that of highest meaning, a third is not got at (i.e known). There is another way of putting it. The teaching of the Exalted One is of two kinds, the highest-meaning teaching consisting of the aggregates, and so forth, and the popular taching consisting of `butter-jar,' and so forth. The Exalted One does not, indeed, overrun consistency. Hence, on the mere expression "there is the person who," must not command adherence. The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So another wise man also SHOULD NOT, IN EXPLAINING THE HIGHEST MEANING, OVERRUN A CONCEPT."""END QUOTE RK:Please take particular note of the last sentence. ------------------- I haven't found it necessary to overrun any concepts yet. I don't take a stance on the existence or non-existence of rain devas, for example. I don't care if one cultural view (of a woman's responsibilities in marriage) is superior to another. Why should I? There are only dhammas. ---------------------- <. . .> RK:> The concepts in this story are like shadows of the paramattha dhammas. This vinaya rule is there because there must be akusala kamma when, no matter how apparently well intentioned, one advises speedy dispacth of another being. The vinaya springs directly from the Buddha's insight. ----------------------- I know in English history it was common for a criminal's family to bribe the hangman to do a good job. The crowd wanted to see lots of kicking and struggling at the end of the rope. So what should the family do? Should they say, "Sorry, Dad, we can't ask the hangman to limit your suffering. It wouldn't be right!" I don't know what I would do, and I don't see such hypothetical questions as being part of my Dhamma study. I prefer to leave "me" (my self) out of it. :-) Ken H #70313 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 5:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional and paramattha: Leading to stream entry upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Robert) - In a message dated 4/4/07 11:14:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > I haven't found it necessary to overrun any concepts yet. I don't > take a stance on the existence or non-existence of rain devas, for > example. I don't care if one cultural view (of a woman's > responsibilities in marriage) is superior to another. Why should I? > There are only dhammas. > ======================== Let's push this a bit, Ken. Ken, do you care that persons, even including infants, in various places throughout the world, are slaughtered? Why should you, for they are, after all, only dhammas. Ken, can't you see a problem with using ultimate truth as a shield against conventional truth and against the need for moral decision making? There are women in various countries who are sold into marital slavery, and there are some who are sold into sex-trade slavery. Is that to be seen as not inferior to arrangements of freedom, because in every case there are only dhammas? Do you take no stance there? Is the cultural view that people should be free not to be considered superior to one which makes no objection to slavery, because "there are only dhammas"? Something is seriously wrong with the perspective you are presenting, Ken. What saves you is that when push comes to shove you don't really accept what you are saying. With metta, Howard #70314 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 4, 2007 9:53 pm Subject: Optimal Observance VI: Avoid eating at night! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 8 Precepts which brings Divinity? The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day endowed with eight features brings high reward and blessing, & is of sublime dignity and greatness! And which are these eight features? In this, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats eat only one time before noon, avoiding food at night, not eating at improper and unsuitable hours. May I also this day & night avoid all taking of food at night and eat only one time before noon! By that I will follow the track & traits of the perfected Arahats! I shall then have observed the Uposatha observance day perfectly! With this fifth praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features brings high - even divine - reward & blessing & is of sublime dignity and immense greatness... Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:44 http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm More on this Optimal Buddhist Uposatha Day Observance: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Fullmoon_Observance_Day.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/atthasila.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Addiction to taste and eating is evident especially in the western world since extreme obesity, a jungle of all fake slimming products, gastric & plastic surgery have become common even among children! Obviously can compulsive eating and bulimia not compensate for the inherent frustration and lack of lasting comfort all life inherits... A 700-pound (318 kg) American woman was recently rescued from her bathroom by 10 fire-fighters who cut away part of an exterior wall and removed a window before being able to get her out... This absurd story in itself demonstrates the degree of the problem! Optimal Observance VI: Avoid eating at night! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * #70315 From: han tun Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry hantun1 Dear U Htoo Naing, Thank you very much for your kind comments. Your comments are well taken. Respectfully, Han BTW, your message was addressed to me. It should have been addressed to: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com --- htootintnaing wrote: > Dear Han, Sarah and all, > > Thanks for this discussions on daana. Han gave a > good reference. > > Anyway daana is the first dhamma that The Buddha > preached to > the public. The public did not know naama, ruupa > etc. But they > did know offering. > > Offering or daana (deti, denti,...--> daana ) is the > requisite > for final attainment of the highest bhaavanaa. > > Daana is the initial practice. > > Bodhisatta did started with daana paaramii. > > When doing a daana or offering there are three > things that > the donor or offerer directs his or her mind. > > They are the donee or receiver, the things that are > to be > given and finally the donor or offerer himself or > herself. > > When there is wrong view then there clings to one of > these three > as self and then the daana is not a true daana. > > If one is thinking on donee or receiver whether he > is an arahat > or not then there might arise wrong view. > > There are many side-ways when doing a daana. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > -------------------------- > #70316 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 2:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conventional and paramattha: Leading to stream entry kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------------- H: > Let's push this a bit, Ken. Ken, do you care that persons, even including infants, in various places throughout the world, are slaughtered? ------------- Whoa! Back up a bit! :-) Robert's quote was: ". . . The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So another wise man also SHOULD NOT, IN EXPLAINING THE HIGHEST MEANING, OVERRUN A CONCEPT." And I said, "I haven't found it necessary to overrun any concepts yet." I hoped that would be understood to mean that I didn't disagree with any of the popular discourses. I don't disagree that one man should not murder another, or that married women should be dutiful, or that telling an executioner to kill someone painlessly was still wrong. I don't disagree with any of those things. But, at the same time, I don't put great faith in concepts. Ultimately, the Buddha was talking about conditioned paramattha dhammas - because that is all there is! Conditionality is what we need to have faith in. And we can do that without contradicting any of the concepts found in the popular discourses. When the Buddha mentioned the stringent duties of married women, he was actually describing how various kusala dhammas can be conditioned to arise. The fact that some of the specific examples he gave might seem outdated today (to put it mildly) does not worry me. Some people will engage in detailed arguments trying to explain how old ideas of marriage, weather-controlling devas, and so on can be supported even in the light of modern values and scientific discoveries. I don't feel the need to do that. That's all I meant when I said I didn't "take a stance" on those concepts. ----------------------- H: > Why should you, for they are, after all, only dhammas. ----------------------- Not they, there! Ultimately, *there* are only dhammas. I don't think of a living being as an assortment of dhammas. ---------------------------------- H: > Ken, can't you see a problem with using ultimate truth as a shield against conventional truth and against the need for moral decision making? There are women in various countries who are sold into marital slavery, and there are some who are sold into sex-trade slavery. Is that to be seen as not inferior to arrangements of freedom, because in every case there are only dhammas? ---------------------------------- We can have our concepts of right and wrong and still understand that, ultimately, only dhammas are right or wrong. ------------------------------------------------- H: > Do you take no stance there? ------------------------------------------------- Yes, I take a stance on political and social issues, although I have lost the fervour I once had. No one is one hundred percent right or one hundred percent wrong. Even conservative-voters can have kusala moments. :-) ----------------------- H: > Is the cultural view that people should be free not to be considered superior to one which makes no objection to slavery, because "there are only dhammas"? Something is seriously wrong with the perspective you are presenting, Ken. What saves you is that when push comes to shove you don't really accept what you are saying. ------------------------ Turning the spotlight back on you, if I may: Is conditionality (the teaching that says "there are only dhammas") necessarily a bad thing? Can't you see how it sits perfectly well with morality and mental development? Ken H Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (77) #70317 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 4:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Apologies again for the delay in reply. L: "Here 'pleasant' etc. is what we were calling 'desirable' etc. Notice that investigating consciousness accompanied by indifferent feeling can be either kusala or akusala vipaka citta. There is no way to differentiate the two by paramattha dhammas. The same for objects of eye, ear, nose, and tongue consciousness. There are obviously desirable [agreeable] and undesirable [disagreeable] visible data but how do we distinguish the two. One answer: conventional values." I'm needing to learn more about this, for sure. I see that indifferent feeling is with both akusla and kusala vipaaka-citta. The answer that the arbitrator must be 'conventional values' isn't an unreasonable one. I doubt it only because it breaks the pattern, it seems, that the final arbitrator in Dhamma seems always to rest with the Ultimates. If the kamma is kusala or akusala, this is so in relation to the ultimate nature of the citta and cetasikas conditioning the act, not to what convention would say about it (I'm just repeating myself, I know). Also, as Ken H. notes, when pa~n~na is not sufficiently developed, it is not able to differentiate kusala from akusala. Differentiating naama from ruupa has to come first and, until it does, the finer differentiation - experientially - is not possible and so one can only speculate and use convention to think about this. I don't think this means that one needn't learn the right theoretical understanding, though. I'll keep looking into it. Here are a few examples: 1. I have to urinate and enter the toilet at work to be assailed by the strong smell of faeces left by the last occupant of the room. I find this disagreeable. 2. I see an e-mail from a friend and find this agreeable. 3. I walk toward the exit of the Dairy Queen after taking the kids for ice-cream and my shoulder collides with the sharp and hard wooden corner of the garbage bin. I find this disagreeable. Sincerely, Scott. #70318 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 5:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry scottduncan2 Dear Ken. H, Thanks for your reply: K: "Putting the Dhamma into one's own words is, I think, a necessary part of the learning process. Not always pretty, but necessary. :-)" Scott: Yeah, as long as my own words conform to Dhamma.. [Me: "In other words, effort arises which conditions citta, which conditions a series of cittaa, I guess, including various mind-produced ruupaa (speech and bodily intimations) which can be mistaken for 'practise' done by someone? Yet mental development continues. If that makes sense at all..." K: "I'm sure it does make sense, although I'm not sure where it is leading. We can say that effort conditions citta (by co-nascence condition, for example) but can we say that effort in one citta conditions the arising of another citta (or a string of cittas)? The difficulty here, as I see it, is that we will get the idea of a course of action (which is a concept) being conditioned by a single effort and, therefore, being wholly good or wholly bad."] Scott: Yes, I think we can say that one citta conditions another. This is, in part, Proximity Condition (anantara-paccaya) and Contiguity Condition (samanantara-paccaya). And consider U Narada's clarification of Jhaana-paccaya, for example (Guide To Conditional Relations, part I, pp.65-66): "It is due to jhaana condition that a faultless or a faulty action in thought, word or deed can be completely performed from the beginning right through to the end. Without jhaana condition it would not be possible (i) to clearly distinguish birds from animals, (ii) to clearly distinguish what and whose form it is, (iii) to take one straight step forward correctly, for, if at the beginning the foot was pointed eastwards, it would point southwards in the middle and westwards at the end of the step. Or else, while taking the step forward, the mind would take another object and forget about the step altogether, (iv) to pronounce one word correctly. This shows how swiftly the mind is destracted and changed..." Just when you were likely becoming convinced that jhaana was something one should look forward to making happen so that one could sit and enjoy having it! K: "It seems right to me (for what that's worth) but I am still looking for an argument. :-) My only concern is with your "dhammas in succession" idea. It might be something perfectly harmless, but there seems to be a danger it will lead away from the "momentary" aspect of reality. ("Shock, horror!" as James would say.) :-)" Scott: Okay, here's your argument, you scrapper you: I think you might take this a bit too literally, and even that you might place dogmatic adherence to point of view over a more fluid and balanced stance. This was why I think that Right Understanding conditions the way one sees these things. I agree that one mustn't take phrases like 'dhammas in succession' or 'streams of consciousness' literally, because then one is just meaning 'self' or 'being' in a fancy-sounding way. Understanding it correctly though, one can then speak in these terms without having to mean them conventionally, that is, with wrong view. Having said this, then, I say: Of course its dhammas in succession - what else is it? What say you? Sincerely, Scott. #70319 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 2:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional and paramattha: Leading to stream entry upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Robert) - In a message dated 4/5/07 5:51:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ------------- > H: >Let's push this a bit, Ken. Ken, do you care that persons, even > including infants, in various places throughout the world, are > slaughtered? > ------------- > > Whoa! Back up a bit! :-) Robert's quote was: ". . . The highest > meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the > concept. So another wise man also SHOULD NOT, IN EXPLAINING THE > HIGHEST MEANING, OVERRUN A CONCEPT." > > And I said, "I haven't found it necessary to overrun any concepts > yet." > > I hoped that would be understood to mean that I didn't disagree with > any of the popular discourses. I don't disagree that one man should > not murder another, or that married women should be dutiful, or that > telling an executioner to kill someone painlessly was still wrong. I > don't disagree with any of those things. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Of course you don't. And that is why I wrote "What saves you is that when push comes to shove you don't really accept what you are saying." You *did* write the following: > I don't care if one cultural view (of a woman's > responsibilities in marriage) is superior to another. Why should I? > and I have picked up on that, using far more dramatic examples, to point out that avoiding conventional speech and concepts can lead to morally indefensible positions, positions that I know you would abhor. --------------------------------------------- But, at the same time, I > > don't put great faith in concepts. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Concepts need to be properly understood. They need to be seen through to the underlying reality which consists of interrelated transient, conditioned dhammas. ---------------------------------------------. Ultimately, the Buddha was talking > > about conditioned paramattha dhammas - because that is all there is! > Conditionality is what we need to have faith in. And we can do that > without contradicting any of the concepts found in the popular > discourses. --------------------------------------------- Howard: That's right. The concepts, mental shorthands for the underlying reality, provide us with a grasp on that reality that we, at our stage, would be unable to grasp otherwise. All our thinking involves concept, Ken - the good and proper thinking as well as our misguided thinking. ----------------------------------------------- > > When the Buddha mentioned the stringent duties of married women, he > was actually describing how various kusala dhammas can be conditioned > to arise. The fact that some of the specific examples he gave might > seem outdated today (to put it mildly) does not worry me. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Unfortunately, demeaning and improper modes of conduct are not restricted to ancient times and cultures, and it is in the realm of concept and story that morality and immorality are played out. The welfare of beings, conventional though they are, should concern us and even worry us. For those of us who believe that the concept-view is a shadow view of reality, and this includes me, it is encumbant upon us to nonetheless bridge the gap between conventional and ultimate truth, clearly seeing the interconnection, in order to conduct ourselves morally. ------------------------------------------- Some people > > will engage in detailed arguments trying to explain how old ideas of > marriage, weather-controlling devas, and so on can be supported even > in the light of modern values and scientific discoveries. I don't > feel the need to do that. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Nor do I. But care must be taken in the details of the reasons for such disinterest and in the conclusions to be drawn. There is a real danger of moral aloofness, and that would be a serious, unintended consequence. ----------------------------------------- That's all I meant when I said I > > didn't "take a stance" on those concepts. > > ----------------------- > H: >Why should you, for they are, after all, only dhammas. > ----------------------- > > Not they, there! Ultimately, *there* are only dhammas. I don't think > of a living being as an assortment of dhammas. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. We *impute* entities upon a basis of dhammas where all there is are the dhammas. But in the case of people, trees, hotels, and sheet music, as opposed to unicorns and rain-making devas, there actually *are* the underl ying dhammas, and it is the very real interrelationships among them that make possible the erroneous reification. In the case of "people", while there are no entities, there is suffering, there is upset, and we need to deal with it, in kindness. --------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------- > H: >Ken, can't you see a problem with using ultimate truth as a > shield against conventional truth and against the need for moral > decision making? There are women in various countries who are sold > into marital slavery, and there are some who are sold into sex-trade > slavery. Is that to be seen as not inferior to arrangements of > freedom, because in every case there are only dhammas? > ---------------------------------- > > We can have our concepts of right and wrong and still understand > that, ultimately, only dhammas are right or wrong. ------------------------------------------- Howard: That is too simplified a stance, Ken, IMO. A sequence of states dominated by hate and ignorance can include many morally neutral even wholesome states, but the effect of the whole is what needs to be dealt with. When a murder is about to occur, intervention is concept-based. There must *not* be a sitting back without acting due to there being only dhammas. A person is about to be killed, and the fact that this is a figurative way of speaking about the matter must not prevent intervention. In fact, if we truly thought only in terms of dhammas, what would be the likelihood of stepping in to stop the crime? --------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------------------------- > H: >Do you take no stance there? > ------------------------------------------------- > > Yes, I take a stance on political and social issues, although I have > lost the fervour I once had. No one is one hundred percent right or > one hundred percent wrong. Even conservative-voters can have kusala > moments. :-) --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know. I find myself all over the political spectrum, depending on the specfic issue. On some matters I am more liberal (i.e. "social democrat") than many liberals, for example fully opposing capital punishment, supporting legalization of the sale and use of drugs by adults, supporting legalization of same-sex marriage, favoring embryonic stem-cell research, and providing a safety net by the government as regards basic housing, food, and health-care matters, and on other matters I am more conservative than many "moderates", for example favoring further restrictions on abortion, opposing eminent domain except in very delimited cases, and favoring a largely laissez faire approach to trade and production, the exceptions pertaining to fraud, theft, and despoiling the environment. There's probably something "kusala" in there for everyone to find! LOLOL! --------------------------------------------------- > > ----------------------- > H: >Is the cultural view that people should be free not to be > considered superior to one which makes no objection to slavery, > because "there are only dhammas"? Something is seriously wrong with > the perspective you are presenting, Ken. What saves you is that when > push comes to shove you don't really accept what you are saying. > ------------------------ > > Turning the spotlight back on you, if I may: Is conditionality (the > teaching that says "there are only dhammas") necessarily a bad thing? > Can't you see how it sits perfectly well with morality and mental > development? ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, I can. But it will not if not seen for the complex matter that it is. This matter can be a dangerous one. It can be a basis for immoral indifference if inadequately understood in all its complexity, particularly with inadequate attention being paid to relations among dhammas, the basis for thought and concept. It is like the proverbial snake that grasped wrongly will turn and bite its holder. --------------------------------------- > > Ken H > =================== With metta, Howard #70320 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 7:10 am Subject: a meditation tip nilovg Hi Howard, --------- H: Howard: I use the phrase "study of the Dhamma" as pariyatti, and involved with concept: the teaching/doctrine, and I see "studying with awareness the reality of the present moment" as patipatti following upon the pariyatti, applying it. -------------------------------------- N: I see pariyatti as not involved with concepts but with nama and rupa. How otherwise could this be applied in pa.tipatti. It is the study of the citta, cetasika and rupa that appear now. This is not book knowledge. ---------- > I see bhaavana as a mental activity, done when kusala citta with > pa~n~naa arises. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Exactly *what* mental activity? I say it consists of many, making it not a paramattha dhamma. ------------------------------------- N: This is a good and important question. The activity is in its arising. Not one citta, but many cittas arising. Many cittas are still cittas, realities, not concepts. Why would many cittas be a concept? I refer to scott's post to Ken: Yes, what else is it? Thus, one citta with pa~n~naa arises and begins to discern the characteristic that appears as nama or rupa. For example, visible object. Pa~n~naa begins to understand that this is what appears through eyesense and at that moment there is no seeing of a person or thing in the visible object. We usually do, don't we? We confuse seeing with remembering what was seen. Does it not seem that we 'see' a person'? But by listening this wrong view can be eliminated. The citta with a beginning understanding falls away, but it can condition the arising later on of another citta with understanding. We only consider cittas now, no concepts. -------- > Bhaavana: there is no special time for it, it is momentary, it > depends on the citta with pa~n~naa. Any time can be bhaavana time. .... when> reading the Visuddhimagga we see that samatha and vipassana, even > developed to the level of lokuttara pa~n~naa can be seen as siila. > Siila is the practice in its widest sense. > ------------ Howard: I suspect that you consider bhavana to be wisdom - pa~n~na. Perhaps "investigation of dhammas" refers to wisdom - perhaps, but, Nina, not *eveything* is pa~n~na. -------------------------------------- N: There is no mental development, bhaavanaa, without pa~n~naa. --------- > Also for samatha listening is necessary, it is indispensable, I would > say. > For the development of what is kusala we need > to know when there is kusala citta and when akusala citta such as citta rooted in lobha. The Abhidhamma can help us: we learn that > rapture and happy feeling can arise with kusala citta as well as with > akusala citta. .... ------------------------------------- Howard: That's a fact, Nina. Though error is possible, it generally *is* possible to tell, Nina, when practicing properly, with that practice based on Buddhadhamma - I have no doubt about this. ..... When looking carefully enough, in a state of calm and clarity, there IS no breath, per se, but only warmth, coolness, motion, touch sensations, and so on, and the conditioned interplay of these among themselves and with respect to other phenomena such as ease and its opposite, volition, thinking, and so on becomes clear as well. ---------------------------------- N: You are right that in the ultimate sense there are only rupas, no breath. There is a lot more to say, but it is enough for now. Nina. #70321 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Meditation Tip nilovg Dear Han (and Howard), I want to ask whether the Burmese Sayadaws follow the Visuddhimagga? I do not understand much about this very complex subject but I find it safe to follow the Visuddhimagga explanations. When we read about bodily calm and rapture, sure it means: naama kaaya: the cetasikas. There is passaddhi of citta and of cetasikas (Kaaya passaddhi). If we are not careful here, we may misinterprete the texts. And as Rob said: in jhaana there are no bodily sensations. You could have a blow on the head and not feel it. This whole subject makes sense if one can attain jhaana. When emerging there is mindfulness of nama and rupa, all the stages of insight are realized until one attains enlightenment even to the stage of the arahat. But there has to be direct understanding of both nama and rupa, even with the first tetrad, even when there is the Application of Mindfulness of Body. I find it not so clear to speak of mindfulness of breathing and with breathing. I rather keep to the texts. You are familiar with the Pali texts on this subject. I remember Tep's studies of the Patisambhidamagga and how he asked your help time and again. In that way we came to know you and you came to dsg! Perhaps you could summarize some of the conclusions of these studies? Tep did not finish and left the list before. Nina. Op 5-apr-2007, om 4:34 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > When you experience rapture (piiti) while > contemplating the Second tetrad you will experience > exactly what you have described, and I think you are > then using "mindfulness *with* breathing". > Howard: “Also, when he goes on to speak of rapture I > take that to refer to the very pleasant bodily > sensation that arises, and I relate it to the jhana > instructions elsewhere for suffusing the entire body > like kneading of dough throughout.” #70322 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 7:44 am Subject: Rupas Ch 6, no 4 nilovg Dear friends, The proximate cause of bodily intimation is the element of wind or motion which is produced by citta, whereas the proximate cause of speech intimation is the element of earth or solidity which is produced by citta. According to the “Atthasåliní” (I, Book I, Part III, Ch 2, 87), in the case of speech intimation, citta produces the eight inseparable rúpas and among these the element of earth or solidity (hardness) plays its specific role when there is impact producing sound. A “certain unique change” among the great elements produced by citta conditions the impact between the sound base, a rúpa produced by kamma (called clung to matter) and the element of solidity produced by citta. Bodily intimation and speech intimation are rúpas conditioned by citta, but these two kinds of rúpa are not rúpas with their own distinct nature and characteristic. Rúpas can be classified as sabhåva rúpas, rúpas with their own distinct nature (sa meaning: with, bhåva meaning: nature) and asabhåva rúpas, rúpas without their own distinct nature. The eight inseparable rúpas are sabhåva rúpas, they each have their own distinct nature and characteristic. As we have seen, bodily intimation and speech intimation are a “certain, unique change” in the great elements, they are a quality of rúpa, namely: changeability of rúpa. Thus, they are asabhåva rúpas. The eight inseparable rúpas on which the two kinds of intimation depend are produced by citta, according to the “Atthasåliní” (II, Book II, Part I, Ch 3, 337). In the case of bodily intimation the element of wind and in the case of speech intimation the element of earth plays its specific role. Do we realize whether speech intimation is conditioned by kusala citta or by akusala citta? We may know in theory that we speak with akusala citta when our objective is not wholesomeness, such as generosity, kindness or the development of understanding of the Buddha’s teachings, but do we realize this at the moments we speak? Even when akusala kamma through speech, such as lying or slandering, is not committed, we may still speak with akusala citta. We may find out that often our speech is motivated by akusala citta. We speak with cittas rooted in attachment when we want to gain something, when we want to be liked or admired by others. With this objective we may even tell “tales” about others, ridicule or denigrate them. We are attached to speech and we often chatter just in order to keep the conversation going. We tend to feel lonely when there is silence. Usually we do not consider whether what we say is beneficial or not. We have to speak to others when we organize our work in the office or at home. Do we realize whether there are at such moments kusala cittas or akusala cittas? When we lie there is the committing of akusala kamma through speech. ****** NIna. #70323 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 7:47 am Subject: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 12 nilovg Dear friends, Khun Sujin reminded Sarah and Jonothan again that we should not be dependant on someone else. She said: “Take Dhamma as your teacher, do not depend too much on others. The understanding of realities depends on your own consideration. I do not like to depend on others. It has to be my own struggle to understand the teachings. You do not need someone else to tell you how much understanding you have. This present object will tell you.” There is visible object now. We can check whether it is understood as just dhamma or whether there is still “something” in it. Nobody else has to tell us. Dhamma is our teacher. (the end of Letters on Vipassana) ******** Nina. #70324 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 4:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] a meditation tip upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/5/07 10:36:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > --------- > H: Howard: > I use the phrase "study of the Dhamma" as pariyatti, and involved with > concept: the teaching/doctrine, and I see "studying with awareness the > reality of the present moment" as patipatti following upon the > pariyatti, applying > it. > -------------------------------------- > N: I see pariyatti as not involved with concepts but with nama and > rupa. How otherwise could this be applied in pa.tipatti. It is the > study of the citta, cetasika and rupa that appear now. This is not > book knowledge. ---------------------------------------- Howard: All verbal teaching, written or spoken, and all thinking, is conceptual. ---------------------------------------- > ---------- > >I see bhaavana as a mental activity, done when kusala citta with > >pa~n~naa arises. > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Exactly *what* mental activity? I say it consists of many, making it > not a paramattha dhamma. > ------------------------------------- > N: This is a good and important question. The activity is in its > arising. Not one citta, but many cittas arising. Many cittas are > still cittas, realities, not concepts. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Each *one* is a reality. What is that "many"? A collection? Collections are pa~n~natti. ------------------------------------- Why would many cittas be a > > concept? ------------------------------------ Howard: A collection of cittas or of anything else: What is it? What khandha does it belong to? Does it arise and cease? ----------------------------------- I refer to scott's post to Ken: > though, one can then speak in these terms without having to mean them > conventionally, that is, with wrong view. Having said this, then, I > say: Of course its dhammas in succession - what else is it?> > Yes, what else is it? > Thus, one citta with pa~n~naa arises and begins to discern the > characteristic that appears as nama or rupa. For example, visible > object. Pa~n~naa begins to understand that this is what appears > through eyesense and at that moment there is no seeing of a person or > thing in the visible object. We usually do, don't we? We confuse > seeing with remembering what was seen. Does it not seem that we 'see' > a person'? But by listening this wrong view can be eliminated. The > citta with a beginning understanding falls away, but it can condition > the arising later on of another citta with understanding. We only > consider cittas now, no concepts. > -------- > > >Bhaavana: there is no special time for it, it is momentary, it > >depends on the citta with pa~n~naa. Any time can be bhaavana time. > .... when> reading the Visuddhimagga we see that samatha and > vipassana, even > >developed to the level of lokuttara pa~n~naa can be seen as siila. > >Siila is the practice in its widest sense. > >------------ > Howard: > I suspect that you consider bhavana to be wisdom - pa~n~na. Perhaps > "investigation of dhammas" refers to wisdom - perhaps, but, Nina, not > *eveything* is pa~n~na. > -------------------------------------- > N: There is no mental development, bhaavanaa, without pa~n~naa. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't say there was. Your comment is correct but not relevant.That was not my point at all. I was quite precise, Nina. My point was the matter of exactly what sort of alleged dhamma bhavana is. It seemed to me you consider it to be identical with pa~n~na. If not, then what dhamma? If not a dhamma, then it is pa~n~natti. -------------------------------------- > --------- > > >Also for samatha listening is necessary, it is indispensable, I would > >say. > > > For the development of what is kusala we need >to know when there is > kusala citta and when akusala citta such as citta rooted in lobha. > The Abhidhamma can help us: we learn that > >rapture and happy feeling can arise with kusala citta as well as with > >akusala citta. .... > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's a fact, Nina. Though error is possible, it generally *is* > possible to tell, Nina, when practicing properly, with that practice > based on > Buddhadhamma - I have no doubt about this. > ..... > When looking carefully enough, in a state of calm and clarity, there > IS no breath, per se, but only warmth, coolness, motion, touch > sensations, and > so on, and the conditioned interplay of these among themselves and > with respect > to other phenomena such as ease and its opposite, volition, thinking, > and so > on becomes clear as well. > ---------------------------------- > N: You are right that in the ultimate sense there are only rupas, no > breath. There is a lot more to say, but it is enough for now. > Nina. > > =================== With metta, Howard #70325 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 4:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 12 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina In a message dated 4/5/07 10:48:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear friends, > > Khun Sujin reminded Sarah and Jonothan again that we should not be > dependant on someone else. She said: > > “Take Dhamma as your teacher, do not depend too much on others. The > understanding of realities depends on your own consideration. I do > not like to depend on others. It has to be my own struggle to > understand the teachings. You do not need someone else to tell you > how much understanding you have. This present object will tell you.â€? > > There is visible object now. We can check whether it is understood as > just dhamma or whether there is still “somethingâ€? in it. Nobody else > has to tell us. Dhamma is our teacher. > > (the end of Letters on Vipassana) > > ******** > Nina. > ======================== On this matter I certainly say "Three cheers (sadhus) for KS!!" :-) With metta, Howard #70326 From: han tun Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 9:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Meditation Tip hantun1 Dear Nina and Howard, My note to Howard deals with Mahaasatipatthaana sutta and Aanaapaanasati sutta, and with regard to Howard’s following comments. > to mean the *whole breath* by "the entire body", I interpret "the entire body" to mean literally the entire body - all sensations arising therein.> In kaayaanupassanaa of Mahaasatipatthaana sutta and in the first tetrad of Aanaapaanasati sutta, there is the following Pali sentence. Sabbakaayapatisamvedii assasissaamiiti sikkhati. Sabbakaayapatisamvedii passasissaamiiti sikkhati. I said that Burmese Sayadaws interpret “sabba kaaya” as the body of the breath and not the whole body of the yogi. Howard said that he would side with the whole-body interpretation, because the Aanaapaanasati Sutta does not teach a meditation *fixed* on the breath, and he interprets the instruction in Aanaapaanasati sutta as "the entire body" to mean literally the entire body - all sensations arising therein. To make his point clear Howard introduces the terminology of "mindfulness *with* breathing" and "mindfulness *of* breathing". There are no equivalent Pali words. I think Howard wants to support his original meditation tip with the idea of "mindfulness *with* breathing". As you know his original meditation tip runs as follows. -------------------- What I was trying to say was in the First tetrad of Aanaapaanasati sutta one has to fix the focus on the breath-body, and “sabba kaaya” means the breath-body and not the whole-body. But the focus may be expanded to other parts of the body and the sensations arising therein, if the yogi is contemplating on the Second tetrad of Aanaapaanasati sutta, because at that moment it becomes vedanaanupassana. [First tetrad is kaayaanupassanaa.] In Second tetrad there arise also jhaana factors of piiti and sukha, and so the rapture suffusing the entire body is possible as described by Howard. It is rather complicated and I do not know whether I make myself clear. And I also request Howard to correct me if I write anything wrongly interpreted. -------------------- As regards your question, Burmese Sayadaws refer to Visuddhimagga quite extensively for all subjects, but for the suttas under reference I think they refer to the Commentary. As regards the Patisambhidamagga, Tep and I work together in the following manner. He has the English translation. I do not have the English translation but I have the Pali text in Burmese script and the Burmese translation. So we compare notes and try to write together. I insert Pali words into his English translation. Without his English translation I cannot do anything. We are still at the very early pages of the Patisambhidamagga and Tep is trying to put some important summaries in his another web-site called Direct-Knowledge. But it is also at the very early stages. There is a lot more to do. I do not know whether it will be finished before I die. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han (and Howard), > I want to ask whether the Burmese Sayadaws follow > the Visuddhimagga? > I do not understand much about this very complex > subject but I find > it safe to follow the Visuddhimagga explanations. #70327 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 9:35 am Subject: 'Life is Suffering' ? moellerdieter Hi Robert (and friends), I hope you are well ..still residing/lecturing in Japan ? your wrote: ' Nice you corrected Das Speigel ' it is 'Der Spiegel' (the mirror) , though I think the neutral 'Das' could be the more fitting article than the male attribute.. origin of 'Spiegel' is Latin 'speculum' with a Greek background of 'kat- optron ' from the root op = sehen...only in case you are interested in etymologie ;-) I take the 'nice' for an agreement with my complaint: the Buddha did not say : 'Life is suffering' .. but , as we know, he stated that the attachment to the 5 aggregates ( the khandas, which constitute the living being, i.e. life) is. (..in brief suffering). Hence we are back to the issue, we both could not agree upon some time ago , and this was the real reason of the question to you : the 5 khandas are not suffering - our clinging to it is. Do you think we can settle this issue now and start again for the benefit of mutual understanding? R: but I think you should have written more..:) D: not necessarily .. the magazine published a series of interesting articles about contempary religions in the world. Buddhism only one of the many .. and actually Der Spiegel mirrored the dominating view by outsiders. Buddhism /Buddhists is considered a pessimistic Weltansicht (=ditthi). The Vatican , respectively the late Pope, only stressed that point. It is up to each of us whether one should contribute to change that public picture. Chances are only a few that within the likeliness of a flood of messages any particular mail is carefully read , so brief ones with a bit of 'juice' may at least trigger a bit of attention and doubt .. with Metta Dieter #70328 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 10:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip moellerdieter Dear Robert, your wrote: 'In the sutta you quote the translation is a little misleading. The "body' refered to is actually the body of cetasikas, not rupa, if I remember correctly. D: I think we should be fair with the translator , Bhikkhu Thanissaro , and specify in detail from the original R: In first jhaana it is, of course, impossible to perceive any physical data at all. D: because of 'quite withdrawn from sensuality' ? Quite does not mean to exclude any of the 5 sensual input at all, does it? (withdrawal from the sixt only by the second Jhana) Hence vedana as the condition of passa is without doubt received. Please consider that 'arupa jhana' starts only with the 5th state of Jhana. with Metta Dieter #70329 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 12:09 pm Subject: Fwd: ADL in audio nilovg Dear friends, Tom just announced that 2 chapters of Abhihamma in Daily Life are on audio on his website, read by Beverly. Nina. Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Tom Westheimer > Datum: 5 april 2007 13:28:12 GMT+02:00 > Aan: Nina van Gorkom > Kopie: "Mom Bongkojpriya (Betty) Yugala" > Onderwerp: ADL in audio > > Preface and Chapters 1-2 are now on-line > http://westheimers.net/dsg/ > #70330 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 4:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, S: "I see that indifferent feeling is with both akusla and kusala vipaaka-citta. The answer that the arbitrator must be 'conventional values' isn't an unreasonable one. I doubt it only because it breaks the pattern, it seems, that the final arbitrator in Dhamma seems always to rest with the Ultimates." L: It's definitely unusual. My first thought was that it might be an indicator of conventional mind behind kamma, or that kamma and conventional mind are inseparable. Who knows? I'm keeping an open mind. Larry #70331 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 1:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Scott) - In a message dated 4/5/07 7:45:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > L: It's definitely unusual. My first thought was that it might be an > indicator of conventional mind behind kamma, or that kamma and > conventional mind are inseparable. Who knows? I'm keeping an open mind. > > ====================== Is that mind you're keeping open a conventional one or an ultimate one? Just a little joke. (Very little, I know! ;-) More seriously: What is conventional mind? Is there more than one sort of mind? Isn't what there is just what there is, and nothing else? When you speak of "conventional mind" do you mean our usual figurative mode of thinking - in terms of entities and selves, or do you mean something else? Whatever it is that you take "conventional mind" to refer to, what do you mean by it and kamma being inseparable? The Buddha said rather unequivocally that kamma is intention, period. Do you mean something else or more with regard to kamma? Getting back to the issue at hand, the matter of the kusala or akusala nature of cetasikas and mindstates depending on convention, cetasikas and mindstates are exactly as they are, independent of convention. How we evaluate them, however, is a matter of definition in part, which means convention. But their nature and what conditions they lead to is not a matter of convention. They are as they are. In this I agree with the Theravadin notion of sabhava. Dhammas are distinctive in nature, being just as they are and not otherwise. While their nature and very existence is extrinsic (other-dependent), their nature, nonetheless, is unique and distinguishing. With metta, Howard #70332 From: han tun Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 6:51 pm Subject: Daana Corner (34) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, Today we will take up “Generosity: The Inward Dimension” by Nina Van Gorkom Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ------------------------------ Generosity: The Inward Dimension As from a heap of flowers many a garland is made, even so many good deeds should be done by one born a mortal. — Dhammapada 53 The giving away of useful or pleasant things is an act of generosity. However, if we only pay attention to the outward deeds we do not know whether or not we are being sincerely generous. We should learn more about the mind which motivates our deeds. True generosity is difficult. While we are giving, our thoughts may not all be good and noble. Our motives for giving may not all be pure. We may give with selfish motives — expecting something in return, hoping to be liked by the receiver or our gift, wanting to be known as a generous person. We may notice that there are different thoughts at different moments, some truly generous, and others having different motives. The Buddha taught that there is no lasting mind or soul which undergoes different experiences. Our experiences themselves are different moments of consciousness, which arise one at a time and then fall away immediately. Each moment of consciousness that arises and falls away is succeeded by the next moment of consciousness. Our life is thus a series of moments of consciousness arising in succession. Gradually we can learn to distinguish different types of consciousness. There is consciousness which is unwholesome or unskillful, and there is consciousness which is wholesome or skillful, and besides these there are other types of consciousness which are neither wholesome nor unwholesome. Only one type of consciousness occurs at a time, but each type is accompanied by several mental factors. Unwholesome types of consciousness are accompanied by unwholesome mental factors, such as attachment, stinginess, jealousy or aversion. Wholesome types of consciousness are accompanied by beautiful mental factors, such as generosity, kindness or compassion. To be continued. metta, Han #70333 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 3:28 pm Subject: Principles of Nature vs Particles of Nature TGrand458@... Hi All 1) The goal of Buddhism is to overcome suffering. 2) This is achieved by cutting off attachment/ignorance. 3) Cutting off attachment/ignorance is done through insight into impermanence, suffering, and no-self. These are the "principles of conditionality." 4) Insight into impermanence, suffering, and no-self is achieved by paying attention to the "particles" of experience, i.e., the elements and aggregates taught by the Buddha. This can enable the understanding of the principles of conditionality. 5) Paying attention to the elements and aggregates is possible when an mindful effort is being made that simultaneously thwarts delusion. The discussion concerning Abhidhamma teachings in this group generally relates around bridging the gap between # 5 -- overcoming delusion, and # 4 -- paying attention to "dhammas." Although the Buddha deals with the "particles" of experience (dhammas, if you must) in no small measure, I don't believe this is where the heart his message is directed. I believe the Suttas show the heart of the Buddha's message is in revealing the Principles of Conditionality -- impermanence, suffering, and no-self -- so as to reject the substantiality of conditional formations (the so called "dhammas") and cut off attachment. The "particles" of experience are NOT the focus of his teaching, they are in fact the things the Buddha wants the mind to reject as being like mirages, murderers, as coreless, and things to escape from. They are mere "tools of knowledge," and foundation for knowledge, and a means to an end. They lead to greater knowledge -- Principles of Nature -- and that greater knowledge in turn ... turns away from the Particles of Nature/"dhammas". “Form is like a lump of foam, Feeling like a water bubble; Perception is like a mirage, Volitions like a plantain trunk (coreless), And consciousness like an illusion, (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 952 – 953) “Impermanent, monks, are compounded (conditioned) things. Unstable, monks are compounded things. Insecure, monks, are compounded things. So, monks, be dissatisfied with all things of this world, be repelled by them, be utterly free from them.â€? (The Buddha . . . Gradual Sayings, Vol. 4, pg. 64) Seeing "dhammas" as "realities" isn't the point IMO. I would concede it as being a remedial step for those mired by seeing formations as objects with self nature. But for those beyond that stage, paying attention to elements and aggregates is still very useful for realizing the Principles of Nature, but a useless and counterproductive practice if the goal is to see these elements and aggregates as "realities" with "their own characteristics." Paying attention to the elements and aggregates is just an exercise with a greater and different purpose behind that mere execise/practice...detachment. TG #70334 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 7:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Scott (and All), Well, I had my bit of a break to let things settle down a bit. I thought I might need a bigger break, but I guess I could just tentatively step back into the ring. The presence of Howard in this group gives me the encouragement and support to keep participating. Scott: I think (tits on a boar) that unsubscribing seems rather an overreaction to being confronted by one guy on a whole list of people, but its what you did. James: I didn't unsubscribe because of just you. First, I was attacked by a member whose name starts with "c", simply because I tried to help her. Then I was accused by Nina of using harsh language with her, when I did nothing of the sort (that I could see and could be pointed out to me). Then I was accused by you of doing the same thing (when I still couldn't see any examples of harsh language and none were provided to me). After three unjustified confrontations in a row, I needed a break. Scott: James, you once wrote, I recall - and maybe someone else does as well - that the style you adopt here is not the way you are 'in the real world'. I can't remember whether you explained the reasons you come across here as you do or not. If the 'real you' is quieter or less acerbic or less in-your-face or whatever, why not just express yourself on the list in this way? James: First, if you think I am really "in-your-face" now, you should go back and read my posts when I first joined this group! After numerous requests, I have toned it down considerably and I don't think I can possibly tone it down anymore. I have my style and it is my style- that's all there is to it. Secondly, I read the posts between you and Nina psychoanalyzing me and the reasons for why I post the way I do, and they really cracked me up! The main reason is because I don't see how I used any kind of rough language with either of you. Yes, I was "in-your-face", but so what? I just say exactly what is on my mind and I don't back down- unless I am provided sufficient evidence as to why my position is wrong. I am not impressed or intimidated by the use of Pali because I know that doesn't mean anything. This group is described as a "discussion forum" but, actually it isn't; it is a "debate forum". Even when extracts from texts are presented, they are prefaced with the comment "Different views welcome!" Hello!! This is a debate forum. Well, I am very, very good at debate. I debated all four years of high school and in college. I won numerous awards, trophies, and scholarships for debate. I can debate both sides of numerous issues, so I have trained myself to see either side. I research an issue and I present the most effective arguments I can to support my viewpoint. I am not rude or overly aggressive when I present my side, I am just debating. Debating is "in-your-face" and there is no way it can't be. Yes, in real life I am a subdued, soft-spoken guy. People have often told me that they like to be around me because my presence relaxes them. I don't post in that manner to this group, though, because this is a debate group! We are debating the Buddha's teachings with each other (and debate is a very good way of learning, btw). If I was writing an e-mail to you off-list, I would be sweet and kind and gentle. That is me. But in this group I am not "me", I am debating in front of an audience of hundreds. You aren't going to see me be kind, sweet, and gentle to you when I am debating you. And Scott, you are not kind and gentle either- you are very aggressive and "in- your-face", so don't throw stones ;-)). (However, my posts to the Star Kids were my true personality because I wasn't debating them). Metta, James Ps. I will go back to the issue of the defilements and if we are supposed to "accept" them or not, later. I am busy the rest of today. #70335 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 4:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Principles of Nature vs Particles of Nature upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 4/5/07 10:29:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Seeing "dhammas" as "realities" isn't the point IMO. I would concede it > as > being a remedial step for those mired by seeing formations as objects with > self nature. But for those beyond that stage, paying attention to elements > and > aggregates is still very useful for realizing the Principles of Nature, but > > a useless and counterproductive practice if the goal is to see these > elements > and aggregates as "realities" with "their own characteristics." Paying > attention to the elements and aggregates is just an exercise with a greater > and > different purpose behind that mere execise/practice...detachment. > =================== I fully agree with your assessment of the purpose of investigating dhammas (and their interdependencies). I am also cautious with regard to calling dhammas "realities", though I don't utterly dismiss the terminology, for dhammas, from my perspective, are actual elements of experience that, though conditioned and dependent, are not merely mentally imputed in the way that human bodies and other conventional objects are. Hardness sensations, for example, actually occur independently of mental fabrication, though not independently, of course, of prior kamma (intention) and of being experienced. As separate, self-existent entities, dhammas are certainly merely imagined, but as fleeting phenomena, dependent and without own being, they do actually occur, and without the benefit of sankharic construction. Also, as for dhammas lacking "their own characteristics", I agree with that as well, but only with respect to the word 'own'. Their nature and existence, both, are borrowed - from other prior and simultaneous conditions, equally empty of own being. However, as I see it, namas are mental activities and rupas physical qualities and events that are distinguishable one from the other, and that, I believe, is all that 'sabhava' implies in Theravadin usage. With metta, Howard #70336 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Scott) - In a message dated 4/5/07 11:46:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Well, I had my bit of a break to let things settle down a bit. I > thought I might need a bigger break, but I guess I could just > tentatively step back into the ring. The presence of Howard in this > group gives me the encouragement and support to keep participating. > ======================= I'm *very* happy to see you posting again, James!! First of all, I like to have all my friends around. And your being around will particularly guarantee that things don't get dull here and that we don't avoid fundamental issues on which there is significant disagreement. They are often the most important issues to debate. I agree with you, BTW, that friendly, but hard-driving and spirited, debate can be very fruitful. With metta, Howard P.S. Before closing, I'd like to suggest to everyone on the list, me included especially(!), to make a particular effort to "play nice" while our hosts are on vacation. ;-)) #70337 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Howard, Here's a few clarifications but no real answers: H: "When you speak of "conventional mind" do you mean our usual figurative mode of thinking in terms of entities and selves" L: Yes. H: "Whatever it is that you take "conventional mind" to refer to, what do you mean by it and kamma being inseparable?" L: There's no kamma without mistaken notions of reality. And apparently, in some cases, i.e., eye, ear, nose, and tongue consciousness, kamma result is to some degree also conventional. What is kusala eye consciousness? The eye consciousness is an ultimate reality, but what about "kusala"? Larry #70338 From: Dhammanando Bhikkhu Date: Thu Apr 5, 2007 11:11 pm Subject: Re: Leading to stream entry dhammanando_... Hi Sarah, > Also, thank you for your further comments on 'pubbakicca' #69880. > Also, very interesting. Is there an introductory section to the > Theragaathaa commentary which includes the kind of detail you referred > to? No, it comes from the commentary's concluding summary. > [*Referring above to Lily de Silva's comments, reminds me of Han's > Daana Corner (26) #69905. At the end of the quote from Lily de Silva's > article, she suggests a contradiction in the suttas. "It is evident > here that a later interpolation cannot be altogether ruled out." I > don't think this can be correct (i.e 'a later interpolation'), but > would be interested to hear any comments you (or Han or others) may > have on this.] I agree with what Han wrote and with what he quoted from Ledi Sayadaw. De Silva overlooks the fact that when someone gives a gift to a bhikkhu with the intention that it be for the whole Sangha, the particular bhikkhu to whom the gift is given is not himself the intended recipient but is merely a spokesman or delegate acting on the intended recipient's behalf. That being so, his personal good or bad conduct has no impact on the degree of merit. When this is taken into account there isn't any contradiction between the Dakkhi.naavibhanga and the statements about daana in other suttas. Best wishes, Dhammanando #70339 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 1:23 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. gazita2002 Hello James, welcome back :-) you make me smile. You really cant keep away, can you? I mean that in a friendly way, James, You mention that you see this group as a debate group. I have never thought of it in that way. Mind you, I would be absolutely hopeless at debating, I sometimes have difficulty putting a decent sentence together! I come to this group for the occasional read and answer when I feel I have something to say. Does debating mean you want to score 'a win'? I'm sure you dont mean it that way, but I thought that was what it was about. You say that debating is a good way to learn; I think one thing I've learnt oout of this group is that we are all so different and do have different 'interpretations' of Buddhas word, even if only slightly, or not so slightly. Yes, I think you may have something there, James, I do believe I have learnt a lot from this forum/debating team! I wish I had more time to become more involved but .......... Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. #70340 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner (34) hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah and others), You opened your essay with a reference to Dhammapada verse 53. As from a heap of flowers many a garland is made, even so many good deeds should be done by one born a mortal. — Dhammapada 53 An alternative translation of this verse is as follows. As from a heap of flowers many a garland is made, even so much good can be done by one subject to birth and death (jaatena maccena). It is interesting. Is being subject to birth and death a motivation or a condition to do good deeds? This reminds me another passage from AN 10.76 Tayodhamma sutta. “If, O monks, three things were not to be found in the world, the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, would not appear in the world, nor would the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by him shed its light over the world. What are these three things? Birth, old age and death.” Here also, are the birth, old age and death the conditions for the appearance of the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, and the proclamation of the Dhamma and Discipline? Do these passages show that good can come out of bad, or is bad a condition for the good? Any thoughts? Respectfully, Han --- han tun wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Today we will take up “Generosity: The Inward > Dimension” by Nina Van Gorkom > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ------------------------------ > #70341 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 2:20 am Subject: The four Right Efforts (was, Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2.) jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ----------------------------------------- ... > Howard: > It seems to me that you don't give much credence to what the Buddha > said about the four right efforts, and I suspect at is so because they don't fit > so well with the Abhidhamma perspective. If I am wrong, I'd like to see how > you them as compatible - though of course you needn't bother yourself in > attempting to satisfy what I would "like"! (I hate "assignments" myself! ;-) > ---------------------------------------- I don't mind assignments, as long as the task is clear ;-)). I'm not sure that I understand the incompatibility you see between the 4 Right Efforts and the so-called 'Abhidhamma perspective'. I thought the explanation I gave in my last post covered your question/ comment. As I see it, the 4 Right Efforts are the effort that accompanies a moment of (mundane) path consciousness. Does this explain what you would otherwise see as an incompatibility? Pencil at the ready, waiting for clarification of the assigned task. Jon #70342 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 2:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable jonoabb Hi Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: ... > L: Right, with body consciousness there is a clear indicator (feeling) > that tells us whether the object is desirable or not. But with eye, ear, > nose and tongue consciousness there is no such indicator. Hence, we must > resort to conventional values. Hang on, Larry. That's a big jump you're making. In the first place, who says the difference between the desirable and the undesirable object can be (or needs to be) known? In the second place, why does the fact that there's no indicator by way of the accompanying feeling mean that we must resort to conventional values? After all, we are talking about the un/desirableness of the rupas that are visible object, audible object, etc, i.e., of paramattha dhammas. What is the difference, in terms of desirability, between the hardness of the door frame of a new Cadillac and an old wreck? > Once we do that we may as well talk about > cars and chariots. That doesn't invalidate the significance of kamma in > the least. But it doesn't require an understanding of ultimate realities > to work out what is a desirable appearance. Just ask a lawyer! > > Larry #70343 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip jonoabb Hi Dieter and All Thanks for the sutta quote from DN 2. I've often wondered about the simile of the ball of bath powder. Does anyone know what this is about exactly? Jon #70344 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > I find it quite common to come across folks who are quite capable of > holding extreme contradictory views at the same time. One example is that of > both accepting a strict determinism and simultaneously a belief in events > occurring quite randomly. It makes no sense, yet I come across it a lot. (Of course > it is certainly possible that I misunderstand. However, I am always happy to > look at clarifications. This old horse is willing to learn new tricks - witness > my recent second thoughts on maers that Nina has written me about.) > --------------------------------------- As one old horse to another, new tricks for the sake of new tricks no longer have appeal. However, there's always room for improvement in tricks already learnt ;-)). The idea of 'just being aware' is to be understood in the light of the commonly held notion of a particular time, place or object as being especially advantageous for the arising of awareness/insight. It expresses the idea that awareness may arise at a time not of our own choosing, and is not tied to a conscious intention to practice. Another way of expressing the same idea might be 'any time, any place, any object'. Seen in this light I don't think it is either extreme or in contradiction to the idea of there being no control. > > We need to keep in mind that only kusala can lead to kusala. However, > > the development of kusala is not a matter of 'wilfully taking baby > > steps'. That I think is a particular interpretation of the teachings. > > ----------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, is always a matter of interpretation. In this case it is not > yours. > ------------------------------------- I'd be interested to know what support you find the texts for the idea of 'wilfully taking baby steps' as a means of developing kusala (but this is not an 'assignment' ;-), so please feel free to ignore if you'd rather not continue the discussion). > > Fair enough, Howard :-)). Perhaps we can come back to this point > > later. I'd be interested to discuss further the notion that the > > weakening of the defilements in order to allow for the arising of > > awareness is the entirety of Dhamma practice. Is this something > > the texts say, or is it another particular interpretation of the texts? > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I think it is in "the texts", Jon. The texts as a whole, a perspective > that I believe you think a lot of. ;-)) > ----------------------------------------- Yes, I do think a lot of the idea of taking the texts as a whole. However, are you copying my perspective to give validity to your argument? (Just kidding, of course.) Again not meaning to set any assignments, but if you cared to give some of the texts you have in mind, that would be appreciated. > > You are fond of repeating this point ;-)) To my knowledge, however, > > no-one has ever said here that the mere hearing of the teachings alone > > is sufficient. A straw man, if ever there was one! > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > Jon, when I wrote this I was quoting from a recent post to me - by > Nina I think. Don't you recall? (There's really no virtue in trying to score > points, Jon. Don't you agree?) > ----------------------------------------- I'm not into points scoring, I can assure you. Sorry if it comes over like that. Jon #70345 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 2:54 am Subject: daana corner 34. nilovg Dear Han, --------- H: You opened your essay with a reference to Dhammapada verse 53. As from a heap of flowers many a garland is made, even so many good deeds should be done by one born a mortal. — Dhammapada 53 An alternative translation of this verse is as follows. As from a heap of flowers many a garland is made, even so much good can be done by one subject to birth and death (jaatena maccena). -------- N: Another translation (from Rob's web with a long Co: § 101. THE STORY OF VISÂKHÂ. Translated from the Dhammapada, and from Buddhaghosa's comment. 53. "As flowers in rich profusion piled Will many a garland furnish forth; So all the years of mortal man Should fruitful be in all good works." ------------- H: It is interesting. Is being subject to birth and death a motivation or a condition to do good deeds? ------- N: I see this more as an exhortation. We should not forget: life is so short. We are born as human beings and we have in this plane opportunities for kusala. Let us not waste our life with akusala such as critizing others, jealousy and conceit. Whether one is motivated to kusala depends on many conditions: kusala in the past, having the right friends, listening to dhamma. Some mortals find kusala a waste of time. They pursue other goals in life. --------- H: This reminds me another passage from AN 10.76 Tayodhamma sutta. “If, O monks, three things were not to be found in the world, the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, would not appear in the world, nor would the Dhamma and Discipline proclaimed by him shed its light over the world. What are these three things? Birth, old age and death.” Here also, are the birth, old age and death the conditions for the appearance of the Tathaagata, the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, and the proclamation of the Dhamma and Discipline? -------- N: Seeing the dukkha in life was a condition for the Bodhisatta to seek the escape from it. If there were not birth, old age and death there would be no occasion for teaching the meaning of these three. But since there are these three dhammas there is. When he was Sumedha, he said, since there is dukkha there must also be an escape of dukkha and he decided to search the truth. He contemplated all the perfections to be developed by him for aeons. Thus, we can say: seeing the dukkha in life was a condition for the Bodhisatta to seek the escape from it. He had to develop many factors so that eventually he could become the Sammaasambuddha who proclaimed the Dhamma that shed light over the world. --------- H: Do these passages show that good can come out of bad, or is bad a condition for the good? ------ N: When we use the words good and bad we should be sure about their meanings. Perhaps you mean here in a general sense: fortunate and unfortunate. When we speak about conditions we have to be precise, there are many types of conditions. We know that akusala citta can condition kusala citta, and vice versa, by way of pakatupanissaya condition . Or vipaaka can condition kusala or akusala. Nina. #70346 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 3:04 am Subject: a meditation tip nilovg Dear Han, thank you for rendering Howard's point of view. -------- H: What I was trying to say was in the First tetrad of Aanaapaanasati sutta one has to fix the focus on the breath-body, and “sabba kaaya” means the breath-body and not the whole-body. But the focus may be expanded to other parts of the body and the sensations arising therein, if the yogi is contemplating on the Second tetrad of Aanaapaanasati sutta, because at that moment it becomes vedanaanupassana. [First tetrad is kaayaanupassanaa.] In Second tetrad there arise also jhaana factors of piiti and sukha, and so the rapture suffusing the entire body is possible as described by Howard. ------ N: Where it concerns jhaana I am inclined to see kaaya as naamakaaya, as I mentioned. But it is all very complicated. -------- H: As regards the Patisambhidamagga, Tep and I work together in the following manner. He has the English translation. I do not have the English translation but I have the Pali text in Burmese script and the Burmese translation. So we compare notes and try to write together... -------- N: I am very glad to hear you and Tep are still working on this project. Nina. #70347 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner 34. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your comprehensive explanation. I really appreciate it. Respectfully, Han #70348 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 12:52 am Subject: Re: The four Right Efforts (was, Re: [dsg] Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2.) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/6/07 5:23:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > I don't mind assignments, as long as the task is clear ;-)). I'm not > sure that I understand the incompatibility you see between the 4 > Right Efforts and the so-called 'Abhidhamma perspective'. I thought > the explanation I gave in my last post covered your question/ > comment. > > As I see it, the 4 Right Efforts are the effort that accompanies a > moment of (mundane) path consciousness. Does this explain what you > would otherwise see as an incompatibility? > > Pencil at the ready, waiting for clarification of the assigned task. > > ====================== Well, Jon, I look at SN 45.8, seeing the following: _________________________________________________________________ "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- and I just do not see how those four different types of purposeful activity, conventional activities recommended* to the Buddha's followers in many places, can be characterized as "the effort that accompanies a moment of (mundane) path consciousness." The four right efforts, throughout the suttas, are presented as regular practice to engage in. Your summation seems to me to be taken utterly from whole cloth, Jon, without even the slightest inkling of that perspective to be found in the suttas. But if it seems like a perfect and obvious match to you requiring no further explanation, then, of course, it would be silly for you to try to formulate one. With metta, Howard * For example, there is the following from AN 2.19: "Abandon what is unskillful, monks. It is possible to abandon what is unskillful. If it were not possible to abandon what is unskillful, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because it is possible to abandon what is unskillful, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' If this abandoning of what is unskillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' But because this abandoning of what is unskillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Abandon what is unskillful.' "Develop what is skillful, monks. It is possible to develop what is skillful. If it were not possible to develop what is skillful, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because it is possible to develop what is skillful, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' If this development of what is skillful were conducive to harm and pain, I would not say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.' But because this development of what is skillful is conducive to benefit and pleasure, I say to you, 'Develop what is skillful.'" And, to see clearly the conventional nature of the four right efforts, there is the following from AN 4.14: "There are these four exertions. Which four? The exertion to guard, the exertion to abandon, the exertion to develop, & the exertion to maintain.And what is the exertion to guard? There is the case where a monk, on seeing a form with the eye, does not grasp at any theme or variations by which — if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye — evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. He practices with restraint. He guards the faculty of the eye. He achieves restraint with regard to the faculty of the eye. (Similarly with the ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.) This is called the exertion to guard." In my reading, this isn't remotely related to "the effort that accompanies a moment of (mundane) path consciousness." #70349 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 12:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Dieter) - In a message dated 4/6/07 5:36:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi Dieter and All > > Thanks for the sutta quote from DN 2. I've often wondered about the > simile of the ball of bath powder. Does anyone know what this is > about exactly? > > Jon > ======================== I think I know, Jon. I believe I experience that quite regularly while meditating. I believe I know it just as I know the taste of apple when eating apple, but I wouldn't know apple taste without biting and chewing. With metta, Howard #70350 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 5:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. scottduncan2 Oh, hello James, I see you're back. Sincerely, Scott. #70351 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 6:27 am Subject: Re: Conventional and paramattha: Leading to stream entry rjkjp1 Dear Ken You are talking about thousands of suttas here and I think you reveal how they have relatively little use for you. That should be a worry, why not take extract meaning and value from every part of the Tipitaka - after all, it is all Buddhavacca, so rare to hear. I think you have grasped the pith of the Dhamma but the surrounding flesh is also nourishing. Robert #70352 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 6:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Interesting... [S: "I see that indifferent feeling is with both akusla and kusala vipaaka-citta. The answer that the arbitrator must be 'conventional values' isn't an unreasonable one. I doubt it only because it breaks the pattern, it seems, that the final arbitrator in Dhamma seems always to rest with the Ultimates." L: "It's definitely unusual. My first thought was that it might be an indicator of conventional mind behind kamma, or that kamma and conventional mind are inseparable..."] Well, yes, I think I see what you are getting at here. Without the benefit of pa~n~na, for instance, actions arise and, being 'defiled', will have their result. I guess 'conventional mind' doesn't really exist, being labelled as such by conventional speech, but ignorance conditions the whole thing, in a sense. It is with 'conventional mind' that 'self' is construed, for example - wrong view. Is that what you mean? I'm thinking that everything which citta experiences from moment to moment can be said to be depend in an essential way on the patisandhi-citta (since all are flowing from it) and the intervening bhavanga-cittas (which are also connected to patisandhi - corrections welcome), since I think this is the original vipaaka-citta of a given existence in a given realm. That being said, in the text of Sammohavinodani: "43. Although those of wrong view, on seeing such exalted objects as the Enlightened One or the Order, or a great shrine and so on, shut their eyes and feel grief (domanassa), and on hearing the sound of the Law they stop their ears, nevertheless their eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc. are only profitable [kamma-] result." To me, this is clear as to the temporal 'locus' of the experience of kamma-result. It is at the moment of seeing or hearing, etc. This is either kusala or akusala independent of later feeling, which is, I think, the conditioned dhamma. The feeling does not correspond to the moment of result. It arises later and by conditions, I think, other than kamma-paccaya and vipaaka-paccaya. Sincerely, Scott. #70353 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 3:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Principles of Nature vs Particles of Nature TGrand458@... Hi Howard Thanks for the good comments. A few replies... In a message dated 4/5/2007 10:02:39 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG - In a message dated 4/5/07 10:29:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: > Seeing "dhammas" as "realities" isn't the point IMO. I would concede it > as > being a remedial step for those mired by seeing formations as objects with > self nature. But for those beyond that stage, paying attention to elements > and > aggregates is still very useful for realizing the Principles of Nature, but > > a useless and counterproductive practice if the goal is to see these > elements > and aggregates as "realities" with "their own characteristics. and aggr > attention to the elements and aggregates is just an exercise with a greater > and > different purpose behind that mere execise/practice. different pu > =================== I fully agree with your assessment of the purpose of investigating dhammas (and their interdependencies)dh I am also cautious with regard to calling dhammas "realities", though I don't utterly dismiss the terminology, for dhammas, from my perspective, are actual elements of experience that, though conditioned and dependent, are not merely mentally imputed in the way that human bodies and other conventional objects are. Hardness sensations, for example, actually occur independently of mental fabrication, though not independently, of course, of prior kamma (intention) and of being experienced. TG: If by mental fabrication you mean mental imagination, then yes. As separate, self-existent entities, dhammas are certainly merely imagined, but as fleeting phenomena, dependent and without own being, they do actually occur, and without the benefit of sankharic construction. TG: They do not occur as "thing of themselves." So in that sense: "they" do not occur. There is the occurrence of formations that arise due to multifaceted energy structures...which are ever altering due to the momentums and energies of the Four Great Elements. Also, as for dhammas lacking "their own characteristics"Also, as for dhamma that as well, but only with respect to the word 'own'. Their nature and existence, both, are borrowed - from other prior and simultaneous conditions, equally empty of own being. However, as I see it, namas are mental activities and rupas physical qualities and events that are distinguishable one from the other, and that, I believe, is all that 'sabhava' implies in Theravadin usage. TG: Agreed that "they are distinguishable." However, they are not in actuality "different things." They are just different qualities (from our perspective). They are actually empty of anything of themselves. The difference may appear as irrelevant to some, but actually it is important... One view posits substance and substantiality to "dhammas." It sees "dhammas" as "things of themselves." It sees them as -- with their own characteristics. As Realities. The other view sees phenomena as empty of anything "of themselves." and sees experiences/things as hollow, as phantoms, and as insubstantial. The first view is liable to generate attachment. The latter view is liable to generate detachment. The first view "upholds dhammas." The latter view demolishes them. With metta, Howard TG #70354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 7:32 am Subject: Rupas Ch 6, no 5 nilovg Dear friends, Speech intimation is produced by kusala citta when we, for example, with generosity and kindness try to help and encourage others in speaking to them. When we speak about the Buddha’s teachings there may be kusala cittas, but at times there also tend to be akusala cittas, for example, when we are conceited about our knowledge, or when we are attached to the people we are speaking to. Many different types of citta arise and fall away very rapidly and we may not know when the citta is kusala citta and when akusala citta. There can be mindfulness while speaking, but we may believe that this is too difficult since we have to think of what we are going to say. Thinking is a reality and it can be object of mindfulness. There are sound and hearing and they can be object of mindfulness when they appear. We are usually absorbed in the subject we want to speak about and we attach great importance to our speech. We live most of the time in the world of “conventional truth”, and we are forgetful of ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas). In the ultimate sense there is no speaker, only empty phenomena, conditioned nåmas and rúpas. When we gesticulate and speak there are only nåma and rúpa. Hardness, pressure, sound or hearing may present themselves, they can be experienced one at a time. If there is mindfulness at such moments understanding of the reality that appears can be developed. The “Visuddhimagga” (XVIII, 31) uses a simile of a marionette in order to illustrate that there is no being in the ultimate sense, only conditioned phenomena. We read: ******* Nina. #70355 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 7:41 am Subject: Nina's little book on the Perfections 1. nilovg Dear friends, I wrote a few articles on the perfections, inspired by khun Sujin's words when I was on a pilgrimage in India, many yesr ago. ----- The Perfections leading to enlkightenment. April 1980. Introduction. ITI’PI SO BHAGAVA ARAHAM, SAMMASAMBUDDHO It is for this reason that he is the Blessed One; The Worthy One, Fully Enlightened One. During our pilgrimage in India we recited these words many times when we walked around the Asoka pillar in Lumbini which marks the Buddha's birthplace, around the Bodhitree in Bodhgaya where he attained enlightenment, around the Stupa in Sarnath where he preached his first sermon and around the Stupa in Kusinara which commemorates his parinibbana. It was the fourth time that I visited the holy places. In Calcutta I joined a group of Thai friends who had organised this journey. Two monks, Bhante Dhammadhara and Bhante Guttasila, had come from Thailand together with Sujin Boriharnwanaket and other Thai friends. Sarah (from England) and Pinna (from Singapore) had also joined this group which consisted of nineteen people. When we were staying in the Thai temple in Bodhgaya Bhante Dhammadhara said that we should find out for ourselves the reason why the Buddha attained enlightenment. ‘It is for this reason that he is the Blessed One’. What did the Buddha discover? He discovered the truth of all conditioned phenomena and when he attained enlightenment he experienced the unconditioned reality, nibbana. He had developed the perfections, pãramis, during innumerable lives as a Bodhisatta, a being destined to become a Buddha. During his last life he attained enlightenment under the Bodhitree and then all his defilements were eradicated. His wisdom had matured to the omniscience of a Sammasambuddha who was foremost in wisdom and virtue. Before the unconditioned reality, nibbãna, can be experienced the conditioned phenomena which arise in daily life have to be known as they really are. Do we see phenomena as they really are? What appears at this moment? Is there seeing? Is there a notion of "I see” We do not create our seeing, it arises because of its own conditions. It performs the function of seeing just for a moment and then it falls away immediately, we cannot cause it to stay. Seeing which arises because of conditions is beyond control, it is not self. The object seeing sees is only visible object, that which appears through the eyes. We do not see people and things, these do not appear through the eyesense. People and things are concepts we form up in our mind. In the absolute sense there are only mental phenomena, nama, and physical phenomena, rüpa. There is no "I" who hears, it is hearing which hears and then falls away immediately to be succeeded by another experience. At each moment there is another experience, a moment of consciousness which experiences an object and then falls away. Objects are experienced one at a time through the six doors of eye, ear, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind. ******** Nina. #70356 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip moellerdieter Hi Jon ( Howard , Robert and all) I am pleased to meet you, Jon ! Allow me to compliment you and your wife for the management of this fine list.. ;-) you wrote: 'Thanks for the sutta quote from DN 2. I've often wondered about the simile of the ball of bath powder. Does anyone know what this is about exactly? D: interesting to note , that the simile appeared as well in DN 11, 12 ; MN 39,119 and A.N. V 28 showing its significance Howard already pointed out the need of the actual experience to catch the meaning of the simile or allegory , which -I think you agree -avoids to be exact .( the finger pointing to the Moon is not the Moon) . However I try to express my understanding so far, hoping to motivate others too ;-) : The simile says to get the feeling of joy,happines (piti & co..) experienced in this (Jhana) state be shared by the whole body from the head to the toes. The ' skilled bathman or his apprentice ' stands for the skilled meditationer or the student, ' kneading the bath powder together ' .... for approaching the body parts , 'sprinkling it again and again with water' .. for the actual feeling of piti , ' so that his ball of bath powder ,saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without' ..for ...is spreading through the whole the body inside and outside, 'would nevertheless not drip; ' for not being overwhelmed by the feeling. By the comments of Robert I recognized again that there is a lack of common understanding about Jhana between those favoring the Sutta /Vinaya Pitaka and those of the Abhidhamma Vitaka /Commentaries . There is a detailed study of this subject by Geoff Shatz , which , from my first impression , is a excellent source to look deeper into that matter. Interesting e.g. that the author points to the withdrawal from Kama instead of a total sensual one Please see: http://always-already.tripod.com/emptyuniverse/id36.htm#jhana__mental_unificatio\ n__what_it_isn_t_and_what_it_is with Metta Dieter #70357 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 12:05 pm Subject: a meditation tip nilovg Hi Howard, ----------- Howard: All verbal teaching, written or spoken, and all thinking, is conceptual. ---------------------------------------- N: Perhaps you think of situations, don't you? True, there is a situation of a person who explains and a listener. But we can also consider such a situation as namas and rupas. There are the vipaakacittas that are hearing, there are the rupas of earsense and sound. The thinking and considering is done by different cittas, kusala or akusala, that succeed one another. What do you think of this? > ---------- H quotes: N: >I see bhaavana as a mental activity, done when kusala citta with > >pa~n~naa arises. > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Exactly *what* mental activity? I say it consists of many, making it > not a paramattha dhamma. > ------------------------------------- > N: This is a good and important question. The activity is in its > arising. Not one citta, but many cittas arising. Many cittas are > still cittas, realities, not concepts. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Each *one* is a reality. What is that "many"? A collection? Collections are pa~n~natti.... A collection of cittas or of anything else: What is it? What khandha does it belong to? Does it arise and cease? ----------------------------------- N: The kusala citta with pa~n~naa is also accompanied by many other sobhana cetasikas: confidence, saddhaa, sati, hiri, ottappa, alobha, adosa, pasaadhi, calm and many other cetasikas. You could speak of a collection here: citta and several cetasikas, but we still speak of paramattha dhammas, not pa~n~nattis. They arise because of a concurrence of conditions when it is the right time and then they fall away together. Kusala citta with its accompanying cetasikas are the four nama- kkhandhas that arise and fall away. The khandhas are nama and rupa, they are not abstract. When hearing, the four nama-kkhandhas are vipaaka, arising and then falling away. When thinking and considering the four naama-khandhas are, in the case of non-arahats, kusala, and they arise and then fall away. Nama and rupa can also be classified as elements or as aayatanas. The purpose is all the time not to see them as a self, a person. ----------- > Howard: > I suspect that you consider bhavana to be wisdom - pa~n~na. Perhaps > "investigation of dhammas" refers to wisdom - perhaps, but, Nina, not > *eveything* is pa~n~na. > -------------------------------------- > N: There is no mental development, bhaavanaa, without pa~n~naa. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I didn't say there was. Your comment is correct but not relevant.That was not my point at all. I was quite precise, Nina. My point was the matter of exactly what sort of alleged dhamma bhavana is. It seemed to me you consider it to be identical with pa~n~na. If not, then what dhamma? If not a dhamma, then it is pa~n~natti. -------------------------------------- N: I see bhavana as the activity of kusala citta with pa~n~naa and the other sobhana cetasikas; one moment of bhaavana and then it falls away to be followed by more. Thus it can grow and become firmer. These are all dhammas arising because of conditions and not a person. Deep in our mind there may be the idea of: I-am-doing-bhavana, but in fact there is the activity of citta and its accompanying cetasikas, of the four nama-kkhandhas. We know, each moment of pa~n~naa is so short, it falls away immediately. I quote now what I quoted before: The Expositor speaks about the meaning of samaya in the sense of time and states how short each moment of citta is (I, 81): < Thus the word samaya in its sense of time shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of a moral thought. By this term thus showing the shortness of time, advice has been given exhorting us to great strenuousness and earnestness in intuition [pa.tivedha], albeit intuition is as difficult for the mind as stringing pearls in the dark by a lightning- flash, because of its extremely short duration.> What is difficult cannot be made easy. But we should not forget that at each lightning flash we have to string a pearl. It will take long, but it can be finished if there is right effort and earnestness, not wasting opportunities for listening more, considering more the present moment. Nina. #70358 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 10:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] a meditation tip upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/6/07 3:07:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > ----------- > Howard: > All verbal teaching, written or spoken, and all thinking, is > conceptual. > ---------------------------------------- > N: Perhaps you think of situations, don't you? True, there is a > situation of a person who explains and a listener. But we can also > consider such a situation as namas and rupas. There are the > vipaakacittas that are hearing, there are the rupas of earsense and > sound. The thinking and considering is done by different cittas, > kusala or akusala, that succeed one another. What do you think of this? ------------------------------------------ Howard: I'll explain it this way, Nina: The hardness we think of is not the paramattha dhamma hardness. It is concept. Thinking deals in concepts, and concepts only. I'll use the metaphor that Dieter brought up before: thinking is like the finger pointing at the moon. Thnking deals in shadows, even when the shadows are shadows of realities --------------------------------------- > >---------- > H quotes: N: >I see bhaavana as a mental activity, done when kusala > citta with > >>pa~n~naa arises. > >> > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >Exactly *what* mental activity? I say it consists of many, making it > >not a paramattha dhamma. > >------------------------------------- > >N: This is a good and important question. The activity is in its > >arising. Not one citta, but many cittas arising. Many cittas are > >still cittas, realities, not concepts. > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > Each *one* is a reality. What is that "many"? A collection? > Collections are pa~n~natti.... > A collection of cittas or of anything else: What is it? What khandha > does it belong to? Does it arise and cease? > ----------------------------------- > N: The kusala citta with pa~n~naa is also accompanied by many other > sobhana cetasikas: confidence, saddhaa, sati, hiri, ottappa, alobha, > adosa, pasaadhi, calm and many other cetasikas. You could speak of a > collection here: citta and several cetasikas, but we still speak of > paramattha dhammas, not pa~n~nattis. > ------------------------------------ Howard: The individual items are paramattha dhammas, but the collection is not. ------------------------------------- They arise because of a > > concurrence of conditions when it is the right time and then they > fall away together. > Kusala citta with its accompanying cetasikas are the four nama- > kkhandhas that arise and fall away. The khandhas are nama and rupa, > they are not abstract. When hearing, the four nama-kkhandhas are > vipaaka, arising and then falling away. When thinking and considering > the four naama-khandhas are, in the case of non-arahats, kusala, and > they arise and then fall away. > Nama and rupa can also be classified as elements or as aayatanas. The > purpose is all the time not to see them as a self, a person. > ----------- > > >Howard: > >I suspect that you consider bhavana to be wisdom - pa~n~na. Perhaps > >"investigation of dhammas" refers to wisdom - perhaps, but, Nina, not > >*eveything* is pa~n~na. > >-------------------------------------- > >N: There is no mental development, bhaavanaa, without pa~n~naa. > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > I didn't say there was. Your comment is correct but not relevant.That > was not my point at all. I was quite precise, Nina. My point was the > matter of > exactly what sort of alleged dhamma bhavana is. It seemed to me you > consider > it to be identical with pa~n~na. If not, then what dhamma? If not a > dhamma, > then it is pa~n~natti. > -------------------------------------- > N: I see bhavana as the activity of kusala citta with pa~n~naa and > the other sobhana cetasikas; one moment of bhaavana and then it falls > away to be followed by more. > --------------------------------------- Howard: You are calling the activity of wholesome mindstates 'bhavana'. What is that "activity" you refer to? Is that "activity" a dhamma? In what khandha, then? You say that bhavana arises for a moment and then falls away. That is talking of it as if it were a dhamma. If it is, is it a specific cetasika? Is it listed anywhere as a cetasika? Nina, I have no doubt that bhavana is concept-only, and not a paramattha dhamma. ------------------------------------- Thus it can grow and become firmer. > > These are all dhammas arising because of conditions and not a person. ----------------------------------- Howard:; Nina, this is going off in another direction. The question is whether bhavana itself is paramattha dhamma or pa~n~natti. I don't believe you consider a third possibility. If it is a specific paramattha dhamma, it can be specified as such. Hardness is bodily rupa. Attention is a cetasika, an operation in the sankharakhanda. What dhamma is bhavana? ---------------------------------- > Deep in our mind there may be the idea of: I-am-doing-bhavana, but in > fact there is the activity of citta and its accompanying cetasikas, > of the four nama-kkhandhas. ----------------------------------- Howard: That's not the matter under discussion. There is no "I" doing anything. Lots of cittas and cetasikas arise, and sequences of certain of these we *call* bhavana. That makes bhavana pa~n~natti. At any moment, the vi~n~nana, sa~n~na, vedana, etc that are in effect are all paramattha dhammas. None of them is bhavana. Bhavana goes beyond the moment. It encompasses a mutitude of dhammas, and it is not a paramattha dhamma, but a concept. ----------------------------------- > We know, each moment of pa~n~naa is so short, it falls away immediately. > I quote now what I quoted before: The Expositor speaks about the > meaning of samaya in the sense of time and states how short each > moment of citta is (I, 81): time shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of a > moral thought. By this term thus showing the shortness of time, > advice has been given exhorting us to great strenuousness and > earnestness in intuition [pa.tivedha], albeit intuition is as > difficult for the mind as stringing pearls in the dark by a lightning- > flash, because of its extremely short duration.> ------------------------------------------ Howard: But, Nina, that has no bearing on the issue at hand. ----------------------------------------- > What is difficult cannot be made easy. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: That's a fact. :-) ---------------------------------------- But we should not forget that > > at each lightning flash we have to string a pearl. It will take long, > but it can be finished if there is right effort and earnestness, not > wasting opportunities for listening more, considering more the > present moment. > Nina. > > > > ========================== With metta, Howard #70359 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 3:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry and Jon, I thought I'd add the description of Resultant Condition (vipaaka-paccaya) given by U Narada (Guide To Conditional Relations, part I, pp. 54-55), for your consideration and/or comment. I think it is relevant to this discussion: "Definition. The condition where the conditioning state relates by making the associated states, the conditioned states, that arise together with it as passive, calm and peaceful as itself - and which is so because it is the result of kamma - it is known as resultant condition. Analogy. This condition is like the fruits which have ripened and flowers which have bloomed. Since energy was expended to reach these stages, they have now become weak and are, therefore, passive and calm. The Resultant Consciousnesses are Calm. In the continuity of a person who is asleep, the resultant life-continuum, taking as object either kamma, a sign of kamma or a sign of destiny, successively arises and ceases like the water in a flowing river. During this time of sleep no efforts are made for action in thought, word or deed and the life-continuum is so calm that there is no awareness that the mind is functioning at all. On awaking, it cannot cause the mind to know and perceive anything. Also, in the five-door mental process, the fivefold consciousnesses and the other resultant consciousnesses arise without having to make efforts when the objects and bases coincide. So, if these were the only consciousnesses, there would be no awareness of objects. It is only when the impulsions arise that objects are known. This above shows how calm the resultant consciousnesses are." Sincerely, Scott. #70360 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 11:27 am Subject: Bhavana & the Body/Nina (Re: [dsg] a meditation tip) upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - One more attempt to explain my point, Nina. You had written the following in discussing bhavana: > This is a good and important question. The activity is in its arising. Not > one citta, but many cittas arising. Many cittas are still cittas, realities, > not concepts. > Each of the many interrelated cittas and cetasikas that underlie what we call bhavana is a paramattha dhamma, but the ordered, structured aggregate of them that ihe bhavana is not a paramattha dhamma. It is much the same with a human body. There are many dhammas arising and ceasing. Those many dhammas are all "realities", and not concepts. Each one is a dhamma. But "the many" is not a paramattha dhamma. It is human body - mere concept, not a total fiction since based upon interconnected phenomena that actually do arise and cease, but not itself a paramattha dhamma. With metta, Howard #70361 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Jon, J: "Hang on, Larry. That's a big jump you're making. In the first place, who says the difference between the desirable and the undesirable object can be (or needs to be) known?" L: It already _is_ known. It's a matter of common knowledge. If you choose to reject that common knowledge then you have "good deeds have good consequences but no one knows what a good consequence is". J: "In the second place, why does the fact that there's no indicator by way of the accompanying feeling mean that we must resort to conventional values?" L: Do you have an alternative? J: "After all, we are talking about the un/desirableness of the rupas that are visible object, audible object, etc, i.e., of paramattha dhammas. What is the difference, in terms of desirability, between the hardness of the door frame of a new Cadillac and an old wreck?" L: Bodily consciousness is different. It is accompanied by pleasant or unpleasant feeling. I think you could tell the difference in the seat. Larry #70362 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 4:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry kenhowardau Hi Scott, We were talking about the momentary nature of absolute reality. You wrote: ------------------ > I think you might take this a bit too literally, and even that you might place dogmatic adherence to point of view over a more fluid and balanced stance. This was why I think that Right Understanding conditions the way one sees these things. > ------------------- I would hate to sound argumentative, but no, we can't take the present moment too literally. We can take it too figuratively. That's easy to do. Our big problem is we can't take it literally enough! ----------------------------- S: > I agree that one mustn't take phrases like 'dhammas in succession' or 'streams of consciousness' literally, because then one is just meaning 'self' or 'being' in a fancy-sounding way. Understanding it correctly though, one can then speak in these terms without having to mean them conventionally, that is, with wrong view. Having said this, then, I say: Of course its dhammas in succession - what else is it? What say you? ----------------------------- That sounds good to me. But I am looking at it from the present- moment aspect. There is only one citta - the present one. Its arising might be explained (in part) by reference to cittas that went before it. So the jhana-paccaya that you mentioned earlier could be handy for that. But that is as far as it goes. That's why I am a bit dubious about the quote you gave: >U Narada: "It is due to jhaana condition that a faultless or a faulty action in thought, word or deed can be completely performed from the beginning right through to the end. Without jhaana condition it would not be possible (i) to clearly distinguish birds from animals, (ii) to clearly distinguish what and whose form it is, (iii) to take one straight step forward correctly, for, if at the beginning the foot was pointed eastwards, it would point southwards in the middle and westwards at the end of the step. Or else, while taking the step forward, the mind would take another object and forget about the step altogether, (iv) to pronounce one word correctly. This shows how swiftly the mind is destracted and changed..." I am sure that is technically correct, but it seems to be using dhammas (momentary realities) to explain some kind of "conceptual reality." "Faultless and faulty actions" seems to me to be very dangerous terminology. At any moment in which there is there right understanding of reality there is no concept of actions - of walking or of telling the difference between birds and animals etc. Some people seem to see the present moment reality as a way of illuminating a conceptual reality: a stream of namas and rupas: a complicated network of interrelated cittas, cetasikas and rupas. There is no such thing - no such network. There is only the present moment. Ken H #70363 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 4:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, in the text of Sammohavinodani: "43. Although those of wrong view, on seeing such exalted objects as the Enlightened One or the Order, or a great shrine and so on, shut their eyes and feel grief (domanassa), and on hearing the sound of the Law they stop their ears, nevertheless their eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, etc. are only profitable [kamma-] result." S: "To me, this is clear as to the temporal 'locus' of the experience of kamma-result. It is at the moment of seeing or hearing, etc. This is either kusala or akusala independent of later feeling, which is, I think, the conditioned dhamma. The feeling does not correspond to the moment of result. It arises later and by conditions, I think, other than kamma-paccaya and vipaaka-paccaya." L: Feeling accompanies every consciousness, as do quite a few other cetasikas. They are all part of the same moment and so are conditioned by the same conditions. I think that predominance condition conditions which cetasika we experience (not sure?). In the example above neutral feeling accompanies eye consciousness and ear consciousness and painful feeling (domanassa) accompanies grief (dosa). This is an example of perversion (vipallaasa) of views. Larry #70364 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 5:08 pm Subject: Re: Conventional and paramattha: Leading to stream entry kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Ken > You are talking about thousands of suttas here and I think you reveal > how they have relatively little use for you. That should be a worry, > why not take extract meaning and value from every part of the > Tipitaka - after all, it is all Buddhavacca, so rare to hear. > I think you have grasped the pith of the Dhamma but the surrounding > flesh is also nourishing. > Hi Robert, I believe K Sujin once said, "The Buddha taught satipatthana, and every word of his teaching should be understood in terms of satipatthana." Also, it has been explained on DSG that Abhidhamma study comes before Sutta study. Or, to put it another way, the higher- teaching should be understood before the conventionally worded teaching can be properly understood. I don't know if that view is found in the texts in so many words, but it certainly seems right to me. Can you give an example of "surrounding flesh" that is not actually (when properly understood) pith? Ken H #70365 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 5:20 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,145 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 145. [From unhappy to unhappy destiny.] In the case of one in an unhappy destiny who is an evil-doer, that kamma, or its sign, or the sign of the destiny, comes into focus in the mind door, or in the five doors, as the object that is the cause for the unprofitable rebirth. Then his rebirth-linking consciousness arises in due succession at the end of the death consciousness and located in the unhappy destiny and with one of those objects as its object. This is how rebirth-linking occurs with a 'past' or 'present' object next to death in an unhappy destiny with a 'past' object. ****************** 145. duggatiya.m .thitassa pana paapakammino vuttanayeneva ta.m kamma.m kammanimitta.m gatinimitta.m vaa manodvaare. pa~ncadvaare vaa pana akusaluppatti hetubhuuta.m aaramma.na.m aapaathamaagacchati, athassa yathaakkamena cuticittaavasaane duggatipariyaapanna.m tesu aaramma.nesu a~n~nataraaramma.na.m pa.tisandhicitta.m uppajjati. aya.m atiitaaramma.naaya duggaticutiyaa anantaraa atiitapaccuppannaaramma.naaya pa.tisandhiyaa pavattanaakaaroti. #70366 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 6:15 pm Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello James, > Does debating mean you want to score 'a win'? I'm sure you dont > mean it that way, but I thought that was what it was about. James: No, I don't debate in this group just to score a "win" (although you can be sure that I will be accused of that for now on whenever someone doesn't like my arguments ;-)); I sincerely believe what I debate. I could, however, just as effectively argue the opposite side of any issue in Buddhism. To argue a position you simply emphasize certain points and de-emphasize other points; only quote material which supports your position; and structure your arguments so that there is direct clash with your opponents. For example, in this group we often argue the KS philosophy. This philosophy, while sometimes nebulous, basically emphasizes the effort of no-effort (wu wei), the power of panna to transform consciousness, and everyday life as a path of practice. Sure, I could argue that! Heck, I even believe that! It is simply Zen philosophy in a different package. However, because I know how to argue both sides, I know that the KS philosophy is only focusing on the most elevated part of the Buddha's path- the ending. Sure, the Buddha taught that we must eventually abandon his teachings on the Noble Eightfold Path, because they are simply a raft to get us to the other shore, but KS teaches that we must abandon them right at the onset! Sorry, but that doesn't work in my view of the Buddha's teachings. In my view, the Buddha's path is a gradual process and you can't get to "no effort" until you have perfected Right Effort. You say > that debating is a good way to learn; I think one thing I've learnt > oout of this group is that we are all so different and do have > different 'interpretations' of Buddhas word, even if only slightly, > or not so slightly. James: Yes, debating is a good way to learn. Also, debate is a valuable and honored part of Buddhist tradition. The Tibetans have long used debate as a path of spiritual development. Here is something from a book on that subject: "Synopsis: Debate is the investigative technique used to lead students into Buddhist philosophy and to increase their sharpness and analytical capacities. This book is a clear and thorough exposition of the practice and theory of introductory Buddhist logic and epistemology, based on the `Introductory Path of Reasoning' by the Gelugpa lama Purbujok Jampa Gyatso. Using this debate manual as its focus, this foundational book covers content and procedure in beginning debate and contextualizes this technique with a view toward its educational efficacy and religious significance. Since a significant part of the Tibetan commentarial tradition incoporates the debate style as the principal means of explaining philosophy, in order to understand the various philosophical stances in Tibetan religious studies it is essential to apprehend the procedure in debate. This translation is supplied with annotations on procedure and content drawn from the oral explanations of Tibetan teachers expert in debate. " http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=1991 Yes, I think you may have something there, > James, I do believe I have learnt a lot from this forum/debating > team! I wish I had more time to become more involved but .......... James: Well, I hope that you will find or make more time to join the debate/discussion. It will be for your benefit. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > azita. Metta, James #70367 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Apr 6, 2007 6:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > > By the comments of Robert I recognized again that there is a lack of common understanding about Jhana between those favoring the Sutta /Vinaya Pitaka and those of the Abhidhamma Vitaka /Commentaries . There is a detailed study of this subject by Geoff Shatz , which , from my first impression , is a excellent source to look deeper into that matter. Interesting e.g. that the author points to the withdrawal from Kama instead of > a total sensual one > Please see: > > http://always- already.tripod.com/emptyuniverse/id36.htm#jhana__mental_unification__w hat_it_isn_t_and_what_it_is > > >____ Dear Dieter, AS I said earlier it is impossible, according to Theravada to be have any sense inputs while in first jhana. If one can feel sensations in the body they can't be in jhana, if they think they are then that is delusion. Buddhghosa: "Of course these [sense impressions] are not to be found in one who has entered upon the first jhana etc. either, for consciousness at that time does not occur by way of the five doors[/ [I]i] it.Vis. X17 and Abhidhamma, Katthavatthu, PTS translation by Aung and Davids pages 331-332. XV1118 Of Hearing in Jhana From the commentary [by Buddhaghosa] Controverted point - That one who has attained jhana hears sound."The opinion is held by some - the Pubbaseilyans , for instance- that because the Exalted one called sound a thorn to first jhana, and if sound if not heard cannot be thorn in the flesh of one who had attained that state, it was inferable that such a one was able to hear. It takes over a page for the Theravada to show why this is wrong. This link looks at the issue. http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=185 Robert #70368 From: robert kirkpatrick Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 3:41 am Subject: Fwd: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip rjkjp1 htootintnaing wrote: Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2007 08:46:36 -0000 From: "htootintnaing" To: "rjkjp1" Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip Dear Robert, Dieter and all, Citta needs a ground to stand as a citta. Citta needs an object to hook around. Citta needs many supports such as mental factors or cetasikas to become a citta that we all can understand. An example of citta is '1st jhaanacitta'. This is a citta. So it needs a ground. That ground has to be hadaya vatthu or heart-element. It needs an object. That object is not a sight, not a sound, not a smell, not a taste, not a touch but just an object and that object is unshakable one. That is it does not arise nor fall away. Because it is pannatta. It is nimitta-pannatta of counter sign, which is the product of thought. So if one is in 1st jhaana he or she cannot see (with eye), hear (with ear),--- and so on. When in abhinnaa sight, sound, smell, taste, touch and everything can be known but through mind-door. Htoo Naing ------------------------------------------------------------------- #70369 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 4:28 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. gazita2002 Hello James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Azita, > ......., in this group we often argue the KS philosophy. This > philosophy, while sometimes nebulous, basically emphasizes the effort > of no-effort (wu wei), the power of panna to transform consciousness, > and everyday life as a path of practice. Sure, I could argue that! > Heck, I even believe that! It is simply Zen philosophy in a > different package. However, because I know how to argue both sides, > I know that the KS philosophy is only focusing on the most elevated > part of the Buddha's path- the ending. Sure, the Buddha taught that > we must eventually abandon his teachings on the Noble Eightfold Path, > because they are simply a raft to get us to the other shore, but KS > teaches that we must abandon them right at the onset! azita; you know, I've listened to KS quite a lot, and I've never heard her say that we must abandon Buddhas teachings right at the onset. In fact, I believe she has the utmost respect for and dedication to his teachings. The room at the Foundation in Bangkok where we sit when we have English discussion, is surrounded by bookcases full of Tipitika [in Thai] and I have noticed she will often ask one of the young Thais who work there, to locate a book for her so that she can sort out some 'knotty' question bought up by someone in the room. She appears to have quite extensive knowledge IMHO. Sorry, but that > doesn't work in my view of the Buddha's teachings. In my view, the > Buddha's path is a gradual process and you can't get to "no effort" > until you have perfected Right Effort. Azita: not sure about this 'no effort', because there is effort/energy with almst every citta or moment of consciousness. I somehow think hte emphasis is placed differently. There is effort but it dosen't belong to anyone! It is our perversion of perception that makes us believe 'we'can do something. Listening to KS has never stopped me doing things that I think are wholesome, with some effort involved:-) however its good to be reminded that effort arises, and falls away, and that there is no 'me' in the effort. Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #70370 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 2:20 am Subject: Optimal Observance VII! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 8 Precepts which brings Divinity? The Blessed Buddha once said: The habitual praxis of the observance day endowed with eight features brings high reward and blessing, & is of sublime dignity and greatness! And which are these eight features? In this, any Noble Disciple considers within himself: Throughout their life the Arahats keep aloof from dance, song, music, & shows. They reject garlands, perfumes, ointment, as well as any kind of adornment and cosmetics. May I also this day & night avoid all dance, songs, music, shows, perfumes, jewellery, any adornment and all cosmetics! By that I will follow the track & traits of the perfected Arahats! I shall then have observed the Uposatha observance day perfectly! With this seventh praxis is the observance day enriched. Observed in this very way, the observance day endowed with eight features brings high - even divine - reward & blessing & is of sublime dignity and immense greatness... Source (edited extract): Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikaya AN 8:44 http://what-buddha-said.net/Canon/Sutta/AN/Index.Numerical.htm More on this Optimal Buddhist Uposatha Day Observance: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Fullmoon_Observance_Day.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/atthasila.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Addiction to empty entertainment & beautification is also clinging! Optimal Observance VII: No music, shows, perfumes, & jewellery! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * #70371 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 2:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip upasaka_howard Hi, Htoo (and Robert) - Welcome back, Htoo! :-) In a message dated 4/7/07 6:42:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > That object > is not a sight, not a sound, not a smell, not a taste, not a > touch but just an object and that object is unshakable one. > > That is it does not arise nor fall away. Because it is pannatta. > It is nimitta-pannatta of counter sign, which is the product of > thought. > ==================== The only way in which it could be said to not arise or fall away is if it is nothing at all - not existing at all at any time. As far as experience is concerned, prior to jhana it is not there, during jhana it is present, and after jhana it is not there. That is what is normally called arising and falling away. With metta, Howard #70372 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 6:28 am Subject: Re: Letters on Vipassana 11, no 2. buddhatrue Hi Azita, Oh, good, I'm glad I got you debating! ;-)) Azita: azita; you know, I've listened to KS quite a lot, and I've never heard her say that we must abandon Buddhas teachings right at the onset. James: That was my summary of how I view her teaching. She stresses that no effort must be made toward enlightenment. Just listen to the Dhamma, preferably from her since she has her own radio show, and let panna (wisdom) do the rest. Where is Right View, Right Intention, Right Action, Right Speech, Right Livilihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration?? Where did the Buddha teach that all we have to do is listen to the Dhamma (which would involve thinking about it, of course) and that is it? Azita: In fact, I believe she has the utmost respect for and dedication to his teachings. The room at the Foundation in Bangkokwhere we sit when we have English discussion, is surrounded by bookcases full of Tipitika [in Thai] and I have noticed she will often ask one of the young Thais who work there, to locate a book for her so that she can sort out some 'knotty' question bought up by someone in the room. She appears to have quite extensive knowledge IMHO. James: Am I supposed to be impressed by this? She sounds like a librarian. What does a librarian know about the Buddha's teaching? ;- )) I would be more impressed by a monk in the forest with no books around him/her, who actually practices the Buddha's teaching, rather than someone who just reads about it. Azita: It is our perversion of perception that makes us believe 'we'can do something. James: Well, if you don't believe you can do anything then don't do anything. How is that working for you so far? Have you found improved inner peace and wisdom from doing nothing different? (This is really important because it will determine if there is value to be found in doing nothing special toward enlightenment.) Azita: Listening to KS has never stopped me doing things that I think are wholesome, with some effort involved:-) however its good to be reminded that effort arises, and falls away, and that there is no 'me' in the effort. James: I'm not quite following you here. So you specifically practice the Noble Eightfold Path, as a practice, but you know that there is no self doing that practicing? That sounds fine to me. Do you really need KS to remind you to do this? What about the Buddha's teaching? What good are constant "reminders" when the Buddha wanted you to directly realize anatta for yourself? Metta, James #70373 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 6:32 am Subject: Re: Bhavana & the Body/Nina (Re: [dsg] a meditation tip) nilovg Hi Howard, before I answer your post we should first talk about realities and concepts. I understood from you that as soon as we think of a paramattha dhamma the subject becomes a concept. Perhaps you mean by concept something different from what I understand. Concept can mean a term or name, or that what is designated by a term. A term can denote a reality or that which is not a paramattha dhamma. All that is not a paramattha dhamma: thus, citta, cetasika, rupa, and nibbaana, all that is pa~n~natti. The Buddha taught by way of samutti sacca and by way of paramattha sacca. When he was speaking about paramattha dhammas so that the listeners could penetrate these, even at the very moment of listening, the subject of his talk and the subject the listeners considered did not change into concepts. They realized characteristics, characteristics not of concepts. concepts do not have characteristics. I mention all this because I think it has great influence on the way a person appreciates listening and considering, even, as Robert says, thinking in the present moment. It influences the way one sees bhaavanaa. In Rob's forum I found a post by Suan that can also clarify things, and I quote parts of it: And see: aggregates, elements are ultimate ways of teaching. Aggregates are not concepts. The namakkhandhas: citta and cetasikas arise and fall away together. That does not make them a concept. ---------- Suan: Each of the many interrelated cittas and cetasikas that underlie what > we call bhavana is a paramattha dhamma, but the ordered, structured > aggregate > of them that is bhavana is not a paramattha dhamma. #70374 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 6:45 am Subject: Rupas Ch 6, no 6 nilovg Dear friends, When one sees a performance with marionettes, it seems that the puppets have lives of their own: they exert themselves, they are absorbed, attached or full of hatred and sorrow, and one can laugh and cry because of the story that is being enacted. However, the puppets are only wood and strings, held by men who make them act. When one sees how the puppets are stored after the play they are not impressive anymore, only pieces of wood and strings. When we study the Abhidhamma it helps us to understand more that this marionette we call “self” can move about, act and speak because of the appropriate conditions. As we have seen in the definitions of the two kinds of intimation by the ‘Dhammasangaùi” (§ 636, 637), these two kinds of rúpa can be conditioned by kusala citta, akusala citta or “inoperative” citta (kiriyacitta). When we realize that intimation through body and speech is very often conditioned by akusala citta, we come to see the danger of being forgetful of nåma and rúpa while we make gestures and speak. Then we are urged to remember the Buddha’s words as to the practice of “clear comprehension” (sampajañña) in the “Satipaììhåna Sutta” (Middle Length Sayings no. 10, in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, dealing with the four kinds of clear comprehension) : And further, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu, in going forwards (and) in going backwards, is a person practising clear comprehension; in looking straight on (and) in looking away from the front, is a person practising clear comprehension; in bending and in stretching, is a person practising clear comprehension; in wearing the shoulder-cloak, the (other two) robes (and) the bowl, is a person practising clear comprehension; in regard to what is eaten, drunk, chewed and savoured, is a person practising clear comprehension; in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension; in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension. ******* Nina. #70375 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 6:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry scottduncan2 Dear Ken H., Thanks for the reply: K: "I would hate to sound argumentative, but no, we can't take the present moment too literally. We can take it too figuratively. That's easy to do. Our big problem is we can't take it literally enough!" Scott: You don't sound argumentative, I was just trying to say something you could 'argue' against. I was more meaning that, along with maintaining the centrality of the momentaneity of consciousness, one needs to consider the 'dynamics' of the way one moment succeeds a previous moment, and so on. I was only pointing out the possibility that a balance might be required which includes a balance of 'content' and 'process'. K: "That sounds good to me. But I am looking at it from the present- moment aspect. There is only one citta - the present one. Its arising might be explained (in part) by reference to cittas that went before it..." Scott: And those that arise with it, which serve as nutriment for it, which are base for it, and so on... K "...So the jhana-paccaya that you mentioned earlier could be handy for that. But that is as far as it goes. That's why I am a bit dubious about the quote you gave...I am sure that is technically correct, but it seems to be using dhammas (momentary realities) to explain some kind of 'conceptual reality.' 'Faultless and faulty actions' seems to me to be very dangerous terminology. At any moment in which there is there right understanding of reality there is no concept of actions - of walking or of telling the difference between birds and animals etc." Scott: Kamma, for example. What is it? I think it is 'action'. I think this can either be 'faultless' or 'faulty', 'advantageous' or 'disadvantageous' (Nyanatiloka), 'kusala' or 'akusala'. I think you are referring to 'concept', if I'm reading you accurately, and saying there is 'no person who does anything' or 'no one acting' or something like that. I think the excerpt might be suggesting that, although wrong view conditions thoughts of concepts when 'action' occurs - as you say, it is, among other things, jhaana-paccaya which assists in the dynamics of existence such that actions occur and become condition to bring about result. Is this a way to bridge things? I like the way Azita put it in her recent reply to James: "...not sure about this 'no effort', because there is effort/energy with almost every citta or moment of consciousness. I somehow think the emphasis is placed differently. There is effort but it dosen't belong to anyone! It is our perversion of perception that makes us believe 'we'can do something. Listening to KS has never stopped me doing things that I think are wholesome, with some effort involved:-) however its good to be reminded that effort arises, and falls away, and that there is no 'me' in the effort." This is good, I think, because it accepts the dynamics as well as the static moment. K: "Some people seem to see the present moment reality as a way of illuminating a conceptual reality: a stream of namas and rupas: a complicated network of interrelated cittas, cetasikas and rupas. There is no such thing - no such network. There is only the present moment." Scott: Yes, very true. The bigger picture, I think, thanks to a factoring in of conditional relations, is that the conditioning dhammas, conditioned dhammas and the forces inherent in their connections allow for the coherence and dynamics of the moment-to-moment process to be elaborated. This allows for the reality of the moment, with all its complexity to be preserved, while demonstrating how these moments relate the moments in succession. Take kamma. An act, and I'm standing for correction, does not have its result immediately, necessarily, yet is condition for the arising of its result at some point future to it. What say you? Sincerely, Scott. #70376 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 6:51 am Subject: Perfections N, 2. nilovg Dear friends, When we were in the bus in Calcutta Bhante Dhammadhara reminded me that in the absolute sense there are no people, we are alone. He spoke into my taperecorder the following message for my husband who had encouraged me so much to undertake this pilgrimage: I remarked that, although I understand in theory that there are no people, only nåma and rúpa, I find it difficult to realize this in my daily life. However, it is right understanding which brings detachment from the notion of people and beings. When we only think about náma and rupa there will not be detachment. The náma and rupa which appear now can be the object of mindfulness and in this way the direct knowledge of realities can be developed. The Buddha could attain enlightenment because he developed for innumerable lives direct understanding of seeing which appears at the present moment, of visible object which appears at the present moment, of all realities which appear at the present moment. Direct understanding of realities can only be developed now. If the Buddha had not attained enlightenment and taught us the truth of all realities we would live in complete darkness, not knowing the way to develop right understanding, not knowing what is right and what is wrong. It is a blessing that the Buddha taught us the way to develop right understanding. It is a blessing that there still is opportunity to hear the Dhamma "which only becomes manifest at rare intervals covering immeasurable aeons" [1] ----------- [1] Subcommentary, Dígha Nikaya, translated by Ven. Bodhi, B.P.S. Kandy, Sri Lanka. ******** Nina. #70377 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 7:46 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Larry, Thanks for the reply: L: "Feeling accompanies every consciousness, as do quite a few other cetasikas. They are all part of the same moment and so are conditioned by the same conditions. I think that predominance condition conditions which cetasika we experience (not sure?). In the example above neutral feeling accompanies eye consciousness and ear consciousness and painful feeling (domanassa) accompanies grief (dosa). This is an example of perversion (vipallaasa) of views." Scott: Yeah, thanks. Feeling accompanies every consciousness. This is right. Do you think this means, that is what you note above, that it is a matter of which feeling is experienced and in what way - that is at what point does the perversion set in? Vipallaasa occurs after the object is experienced but it must be present as each object is experienced. Can you clarify this for me please? In the Paa.li text of Sammohavinodanii, the term translated as 'agreeable and disagreeable object' is : 'i.t.thaani.t.thaarmama.na.m'. Noting Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya), is this the sub-category of Object-Predominance to which you refer? Can you say more about this? Sincerely, Scott. #70378 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 4:03 am Subject: Re: Bhavana & the Body/Nina (Re: [dsg] a meditation tip) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/7/07 9:41:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > before I answer your post we should first talk about realities and > concepts. > I understood from you that as soon as we think of a paramattha dhamma > the subject becomes a concept. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Good. On that we agree. ------------------------------------ Perhaps you mean by concept something > > different from what I understand. Concept can mean a term or name, or > that what is designated by a term. A term can denote a reality or > that which is not a paramattha dhamma. ------------------------------------- Howard: I take the designation as the primary sense of 'concept', and the term as secondary. As I see it, when there is thinking, there are imagined/conceived of "things", and those things-conceived-of, not actual dhammas themselves, are called "concepts". All there *actually* is at the time is the thinking. A process of thinking, when optimal, *refers* to (or points to) dhammas and mentally constructed/projected aggregates of interrelated dhammas, or to purely imagined aggregates that are known to be purely imagined. -------------------------------------- > All that is not a paramattha dhamma: thus, citta, cetasika, rupa, and > nibbaana, all that is pa~n~natti. ------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, what is thought about, even paramattha dhammas, is not present, but only conceived of. ------------------------------------ > The Buddha taught by way of samutti sacca and by way of paramattha > sacca. When he was speaking about paramattha dhammas so that the > listeners could penetrate these, even at the very moment of > listening, the subject of his talk and the subject the listeners > considered did not change into concepts. They realized > characteristics, characteristics not of concepts. concepts do not > have characteristics. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Because they are only imagined/conceived of. ----------------------------------------- > I mention all this because I think it has great influence on the way > a person appreciates listening and considering, even, as Robert says, > thinking in the present moment. It influences the way one sees > bhaavanaa. > In Rob's forum I found a post by Suan that can also clarify things, > and I quote parts of it: > First, I would like to quote the following statements made by > Buddhaghosa in Section 57, Anangana Suttavannanaa, Mulapannaasa, > Majjimanikaaya Atthakathaa. > > QUOTE > > "The Buddha Bhagavaa's way of teaching is twofold in terms of the > conventional way of teaching (sammutidesanaa) and the ultimate way of > teaching (paramatthadesanaa). There, such way of teaching as person, > sentient being, woman, man, Royals, Brahmin, gods, and maaro is the > conventional way of teaching. Such way of teaching as impermanence, > misery, selflessness, aggregates, elements, venues, and Establishment > of Recollection (Satipatthaana) is the ultimate way of teaching. > > There, the Buddha Bhagavaa delivers the conventional way of teaching > to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the > teaching in conventional terms, penetrating the meaning, and removing > ignorance. On the other hand, the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of > teaching to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by > hearing the teachings in ultimate terms, penetrating the meaning, and > removing ignorance." > ------- > Nina: This is possible: penetrating the meaning, removing ignorance. >And see: aggregates, > elements are ultimate ways of teaching. Aggregates are not concepts. ------------------------------------- Howard: Of *course* they are, Nina! The rupakkhandha, the collection of all rupas, past, present, and future, is concept. The body is concept. The Tipitaka is concept. They all are concept. It seems that when a concept is important to you, you don't want it to be concept. But our wishes don't make things so. --------------------------------------- > The namakkhandhas: citta and cetasikas arise and fall away together. > That does not make them a concept. -------------------------------------- Howard: If by "namakkhandas" PLURAL, you mean individual namas, that is so - they are paramattha dhammas. But the aggregate, the namakkhandha, is concept, pure and simple. Likewise, all the rupas, past present, and future, that make up what we call "the body" are paramattha dhammas, but the body itself is concept. There is no body independent of being conceived of as a unity. -------------------------------------- > ---------- > > Suan: Atthasaalinii, page > 223, in Roman edition. > > QUOTE > "Abhidhammo naama paramatthadesanaa" > > "Abhidhamma is the ultimate way of teaching." > > > Thus, whenever we find in a Suttam the teachings of impermanence, > misery, selflessness, aggregates, elements, venues, and Establishment > of Recollection (Satipatthaana), we can know for sure that this > Suttam is engaging in the ultimate way of teaching. And, as the > ultimate way of teaching is indicative of Abhidhamma, we can > establish the fact that this Suttam contains a segment or segments of > Abhidhamma. For example, Mahaa Satipatthaana Suttam would easily > qualify as Abhidhamma because this Suttam dedicates itself to > teaching the establishment of recollection exclusively. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I have no dispute with there being varying types of teaching. That is not what the issue is. ---------------------------------------- > > We can also find in the Suttams the teachings of persons and sentient > beings so that they can also qualify as the conventional way of > teaching. For example, Metta Suttam uses sentient beings as its > objects while containing items of Abhidhamma such as gentleness > (mettaa or adosa in Abhidhamma parlance). > > Therefore, we now know that Suttanta Pitaka contains both the > conventional way of teaching and the ultimate way of teaching. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes. So? Who is questioning that? Not me. ---------------------------------- That > > is another way of saying that Suttams contains segments of Abhidhamma. ----------------------------------- Howard: I would not put it that way. The suttas present Dhamma. There is variation in the conventionality of speech used therein. The Abhidhamma Pitaka is an attempt to formulate and summarize the Dhamma using minimal conventional speech. ------------------------------------ > > Now, let's take a closer look at the second paragraph we quoted > earlier from Anangana Suttavannanaa. > > QUOTE > "There, the Buddha delivers the conventional way of teaching to those > who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teaching in > conventional terms, penetrating the meaning, and removing ignorance. > On the other hand, the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of teaching > to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the > teachings in ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and removing > ignorance." > > > The above paragraph is extremely significant in determining the goal > of Suttanta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka. --------------------------------- Howard: This is an issue having no bearing on our discussion, Nina. --------------------------------- > > The first sentence shows the conventional way of teaching and its > purpose. And the purpose is the gain of unique insight. Unique > insight is the right view that is sammaaditthi, which is an ultimate > reality, or an item of Abhidhamma. > > In short, Suttams not only contain segments of Abhidhamma, but also > have the right view that is an item of Abhidhamma as their goal. ------------------------------------- Howard: I think it is an unintentional put-down to say that the Sutta Pitaka contains "segments of Abhidhamma". The whole of the Dhamma is there in the suttas. They are the uncontestable teaching of the Buddha, and they lack for nothing. Abhidhamma is not the good and smart child, and the suttas the lesser step-child that gets hand-me-downs. Dhamma is Dhamma, and Abhidhamma is "abhi" only in that it follows upon the Dhamma, codifying it, and based on it. -------------------------------------- > > The second sentence solves the issue of whether Abhidhamma can > deliver awakening at all. Yes, Abhidhamma can deliver the goods > because "the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of teaching to those > who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teachings in > ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and removing ignorance." --------------------------------------- Howard: This sort of position runs the risk of establishing "Abhidhammism" as a substitute for the Dhamma. But, again, Nina, I don't know why you are bringing up any of this. It does not deal with the matter at hand, the nature of bhavana, which I maintain is pa~n~natti, just as the human body is pa~n~natti. --------------------------------------- > (end quote) > Nina. > > > Op 7-apr-2007, om 0:27 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >Each of the many interrelated cittas and cetasikas that underlie what > >we call bhavana is a paramattha dhamma, but the ordered, structured > >aggregate > >of them that is bhavana is not a paramattha dhamma. > ======================== With metta, Howard #70379 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 8:49 am Subject: e-card from the English countryside sarahprocter... Dear Nina & All, Lots of lambs in surrounding fields, daffodils, walks in bluebell woods and on the Sussex downs, primrose banks and pleasant times with my mother and extended family and a couple of friends. Alan W (from Zolag website) came down one afternoon from London and as we walked and sipped tea we talked about teaching dhamma to children, especially his children. The interest really depends on accumulations for such and each child is so different in this regard. He likes to read and discuss (simplified) Jatakas and his children at least appreciate at some level that attachment brings sorrow when you don't get what you want! He likes asking questions such as 'What's better than being a good person?' [Being a good person and helping others to also be good....]. Lots of talk on publishing, distribution of dhamma books and so on...Alan and I have known each other since school days, so we always have lots to chat about. He's been visiting my mother's garden for dhamma discussions for decades! When Right View isn't firm enough, how we can easily be led astray by other beliefs and ideas. When he first met Khun Sujin (in Thailand), he'd asked her about different beliefs and she'd asked him if he believed in seeing now, hearing now.... Also, when he'd told her he was studying Abhidhamma, she'd responded by saying that seeing is Abhidhamma, hearing is Abhidhamma....She always brought the topics he raised back to this moment and the practice now, i.e the understanding of dhammas appearing as we speak. [Alan likes listening to the audio discussions and promises to try and post occasional extracts he finds helpful here....we'll see!] And so, whether here in Sussex or there in Hong Kong, seeing is just seeing, hearing is just hearing, visible object....sound, thinking about stories....just the same. I had a little chat with my mother this morning about letting go of the past. We all have good and bad experiences, good and bad memories, life after life, but what's important is what we learn and the understanding of good values and qualities. We touched on kamma and the importance in confidence in what is worthy... Actually, I learn a lot from her great kindness, consideration for others too.... I'm very fortunate. A very slow connection here and I need to pack again as off on Surf-ari tomorrow with my nephew Tom, who used to have quites some interest in the Dhamma and even posted here a little before....should be fun... Thanks for all the good discussions which we've been following when we've had the chance. Much appreciated. Metta, Sarah p.s James, after this trip I should be re-viatalized for more debates - perhaps we could swap sides and you could argue the KS line appreciating the importance of understanding realities now and I could challenge you on it:-) ======== #70380 From: connie Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 9:18 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (44) nichiconn Dear Friends, Yet another of Theri Pa.taacaaraa's followers: Candaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa - The commentary on the verses of Therii Candaa Duggataaha.m pure aasinti-aadikaa candaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii anukkamena sambhatavimokkhasambhaaraa paripakka~naa.naa The verses beginning Formerly I fared ill are Therii Candaa's. She too performed meritorious deed under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. In due course, she accumulated the prerequisites for liberation through matured knowledge. imasmi.m buddhuppaade a~n~natarasmi.m braahma.nagaame apa~n~naatassa braahma.nassa gehe pa.tisandhi.m ga.nhi. Tassaa nibbattito pa.t.thaaya.m ta.m kula.m bhogehi parikkhaya.m gata.m. Saa anukkamena vi~n~nuta.m patvaa dukkhena jiivati. Atha tasmi.m gehe ahivaatarogo uppajji. Tenassaa sabbepi ~naatakaa mara.nabyasana.m paapu.ni.msu. Saa ~naatikkhaye jaate a~n~nattha jiivitu.m asakkontii kapaalahatthaa kule kule vicaritvaa laddhaladdhena bhikkhaahaarena yaapentii In this Buddha era, she obtained rebirth in a certain village of brahmans in the home of an unknown brahman. From the time of her birth, that family's wealth diminished. In due course she came of age and lived miserably. Then cholera* broke out in that home, and because of that ll her relatives arrived at the disaster of death. When the loss of her relatives happened, she was not able to live anywhere else. She wandered from family to family with her alms bowl in her hand. She kept alive through whatever alms food she received. * {RD translates "snake-blast disease" and notes: On this mythical illness, see Hardy, Eastern Monachism, 85 n.} ekadivasa.m pa.taacaaraaya theriyaa bhattavissagga.t.thaana.m agamaasi. Bhikkhuniyo ta.m dukkhita.m khuddaabhibhuuta.m disvaana sa~njaatakaaru~n~naa piyasamudaacaarena sa"ngahetvaa tattha vijjamaanena upacaaramanoharena aahaarena santappesu.m. Saa taasa.m aacaarasiile pasiiditvaa theriyaa santika.m upasa"nkamitvaa vanditvaa ekamanta.m nisiidi. Tassaa therii dhamma.m kathesi. Saa ta.m dhamma.m sutvaa saasane abhippasannaa sa.msaare ca sa~njaatasa.mvegaa pabbaji Pabbajitvaa ca theriyaa ovaade .thatvaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa bhaavana.m anuyu~njantii kataadhikaarataaya ~naa.nassa ca paripaaka.m gatattaa na cirasseva saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa- 122. "Duggataaha.m pure aasi.m, vidhavaa ca aputtikaa; vinaa mittehi ~naatiihi, bhattaco.lassa naadhiga.m. 123. "Patta.m da.n.da~nca ga.nhitvaa, bhikkhamaanaa kulaa kula.m; siitu.nhena ca .dayhantii, satta vassaani caariha.m. 124. "Bhikkhuni.m puna disvaana, annapaanassa laabhini.m; upasa"nkamma.m avoca.m, pabbajja.m anagaariya.m. 125. "Saa ca ma.m anukampaaya, pabbaajesi pa.taacaaraa; tato ma.m ovaditvaana, paramatthe niyojayi. 126. "Tassaaha.m vacana.m sutvaa, akaasi.m anusaasani.m; amogho ayyaayovaado, tevijjaamhi anaasavaa"ti.- Udaanavasena imaa gaathaa abhaasi. Then one day, she went to the place where a meal was being served by Theri Pa.taacaaraa. When the bhikkhuniis saw she was afflicted and overwhelmed by hunger, compassion arose, and being well disposed, they served her the food that remained. She had faith in their morals and virtuous conduct. She went into the presence of the therii, paid homage, and sat down to one side. Then the therii explained the Doctrine to her. After hearing the Doctrine, she had faith in the teaching; a profound stirring arose in her concerning continued existence; and she went forth. And after she went forth, standing firm in the therii's instruction, she established insight and developed it diligently. Since she had done the prerequisite work, and because of the maturity of her knowledge, after a very short time, she attained Arahatship together with the [four] discrminations. Looking over her attainment, she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: 122. Formerly I fared ill, a widow without children. Without friends and relations, I did not obtain food or clothing. 123. Taking a bowl and stick, begging from family to family, and being burned by cold and heat, I wandered for seven years. 124. But then I saw a bhikkhunii who had obtained food and drink, and approaching her, I said, "Send me forth into the homeless state." 125. And Pa.taacaara, in pity, sent me forth. Then she exhorted me and urged me towards the highest goal. 126. I heard her utterance and took her advice. The noble lady's exhortation was not in vain. I have the triple knowledge. I am without taints. RD: Fallen on evil days was I of yore. No husband had I, nor no child, no friends Or kin - whence could I food or raiment find? (122) As beggars go, I took my bowl and staff, And sought me alms, begging from house to house, Sunburnt, frost-bitten, seven weary years. (123) Then came I where a woman Mendicant *250 Shared with me food, and drink, and welcomed me, And said: 'Come forth into our homeless life!' (124) In gracious pity did she let me come - PA.TAACAARAA - and heard me take the vows. And thenceforth words of wisdom and of power She spake, and set before my face The way of going to the Crown of Life. *251 (125) I heard her and I marked, and did her will. O wise and clear Our Lady's homily! The Threefold Wisdom have I gotten now. From deadly drugs my heart is purified. (126) *250 Bhikkhunii. The charm of the poem lies in the poor woman, an involuntary beggar 'in the world,' 'coming forth,' a voluntary beggar, into the higher Mendicancy, and from the dregs of living, reckoned by worldly standards, setting herself to win the cream of the life of Mind. *251 Lit., the thing of supreme import or advantage - paramatthe. Tattha duggataati daliddaa. Pureti pabbajitato pubbe. Pabbajitakaalato pa.t.thaaya hi idha puggalo bhogehi a.d.dho vaa daliddo vaa hi na vattabbo. Gu.nehi pana aya.m therii a.d.dhaayeva. Tenaaha "duggataaha.m pure aasin"ti. Vidhavaati dhavo vuccati saamiko, tadabhaavaa vidhavaa, matapatikaati attho. Aputtikaati puttarahitaa. Vinaa mittehiiti mittehi bandhavehi ca parihiinaa rahitaa. Bhattaco.lassa naadhiganti bhattassa co.lassa ca paaripuuri.m naadhigacchi.m, kevala.m pana bhikkhaapi.n.dassa pilotikaakha.n.dassa ca vasena ghaasacchaadanamattameva alatthanti adhippaayo. Tenaaha "patta.m da.n.da~nca ga.nhitvaa"ti-aadi. 122. There, fared ill means: [she was] poor. Formerly (pure) means: before (pubbe) she went forth. From the time of going forth, an individual in this case is not said to be rich or poor in terms of wealth. But this therii was rich in good qualities; therefore she says, Formerly I fared il. Widow (vidhavaa) means: a husband (dhavo) is said to be a husband (saamiko); in the absence of one, [one is] a widow, one whose husband is dead (mata-patikaa); this is the meaning. Without children (aputtikaa) means: deprived of children (putta-rahitaa). I did not obtain (naadhiga.m) food or clothing (bhatta-co.lassa), but with regard to alms-round food and a piece of rag. I received just enough food and clothing. That is the meaning. Tattha pattanti mattikaabhaajana.m. Da.n.danti go.nasunakhaadiparihara.nada.n.daka.m. Kulaa kulanti kulato kula.m. Siitu.nhena ca .dayhantiiti vasanagehaabhaavato siitena ca u.nhena ca pii.liyamaanaa. 123. Therefore she says: taking a bowl and stick, etc. There bowl means: a clay bowl. Stick means: a stick for protection against dogs and oxen, etc. From family to family (kulaa kula.m) means: from family to family (kultato kula.m). And being burned by cold and heat (siitu.nhena) means: being oppressed by cold (siilena ca) and by heat (u.nhena ca) because of the absence of a dwelling or clothes. Bhikkhuninti pa.taacaaraatheri.m sandhaaya vadati. Punaati pacchaa, sattasa.mvaccharato aparabhaage. 124. A bhikkhunii means: she speaks with reference to Therii Pa.taacaaraa. But then, means: afterwards, after seven years. Paramattheti parame uttame atthe, nibbaanagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya nibbaane ca. Niyojayiiti kamma.t.thaana.m aacikkhantii niyojesi. Sesa.m vuttanayameva. 125. The highest goal (paramatthe) means: the goal that is the highest (parame uttame atthe), the practice of the path leading to quenching and quenching itself. [She] urged me (niyojayi) means: she urged me (niyojesi), explaining a meditation subject. The meaning of the rest has been explained. Candaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Pa~ncakanipaatava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Candaa. Here ends the commentary on the groups of five [verses]. =========== peace, connie ps. sorry again about the length... sometimes i just cringe too much thinking about where to split these things. #70381 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 9:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip moellerdieter Dear Robert ( and friends), you wrote: 'AS I said earlier it is impossible, according to Theravada to be have any sense inputs while in first jhana. If one can feel sensations in the body they can't be in jhana, if they think they are then that is delusion.' Robert , please let me explain that my understanding of Theravada is first of all based on the Sutta/Vinaya Pitaka not excluding Abhidhamma and commentaries (e.g.Ven. Buddhadosa), as far as the latter are in accordance /within the framework of the suttas. To check that - when in doubt - has been explicitly stated by the Buddha before his passing away. In this way - I hope you agree- misunderstandings may be solved respectively finally be concluded ´to agree to disagree.. so it can't be helped .. ;-) The link I recommended to read can provide us with some of the material needed for our discussion... of course it must be scrutinized ... But to talk a bit simple about the practical side from my limited experience: to put the Jhana concept into action we need to sit down , relax and try to get out of this thirst- for -action attitude which is normally determining our daily life. To calm down the mind , to bring this monkey nature to ´rest, we fix our attention on a object , e.g. the in- and out breathing. The inner peace , though not always achieved , may bring us what the Buddha called the joy orginated by withdrawal: piti , which is what we are talking about in the simile of the extract from D.N. 2 concerning the first Jhana. Piti ,as I understand, is a mental formation as it is peace of mind which generates this happy feeling . And this happy feeling needs to be approached for the whole body .. the bathman using the water to form the ball of bath powder... but that is only my understanding and certainly there may be others.. Now we should look into the issue of your statement: in (the first) Jhana there is no bodily sensation at all to be felt ( i.e. refering to the 5 senses) . However I think it would be good to learn whether you agree with me so far before we continue.. (?) with Metta Dieter > http://always- already.tripod.com/emptyuniverse/id36.htm#jhana__mental_unification__what_it_isn_t_and_what_it_is > > #70382 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 10:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable jonoabb Hi Larry Thanks for the further elaboration. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > J: "Hang on, Larry. That's a big jump you're making. In the first > place, who says the difference between the desirable and the undesirable > object can be (or needs to be) known?" > > L: It already _is_ known. It's a matter of common knowledge. If you > choose to reject that common knowledge then you have "good deeds have > good consequences but no one knows what a good consequence is". But everyone knows what good consequences are in conventional terms. They are things like good health, a comfortable life, ease of livelihood, and avoidance of extremes of weather and temperature. These are not things that are dependent on current values or tastes. > J: "In the second place, why does the fact that there's no indicator by > way of the accompanying feeling mean that we must resort to conventional > values?" > > L: Do you have an alternative? The alternative would be that only developed panna can know whether the presently experienced visible object is the result of kusala vipaka or of akusala vipaka. Would you see this as a problem? > J: "After all, we are talking about the un/desirableness of the rupas > that are visible object, audible object, etc, i.e., of paramattha > dhammas. What is the difference, in terms of desirability, between the > hardness of the door frame of a new Cadillac and an old wreck?" > > L: Bodily consciousness is different. It is accompanied by pleasant or > unpleasant feeling. I think you could tell the difference in the seat. But if you knock your head on the door-frame, a new Cadillac can be just as painful as an old wreck. Jon #70383 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 10:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable jonoabb Hi Scott Many thanks for the passage from U Narada's 'Guide To Conditional Relations'. I agree that it's relevant, but I'm not sure it helps resolve Larry's curiosity about being able to tell whether a given moment of vipaka is the result of kusala kamma or of akusala kamma. Jon PS Interesting the definition in its reference to making the co- arising conditioned states "as passive, calm and peaceful as itself". Always something new to notice! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Larry and Jon, > > I thought I'd add the description of Resultant Condition > (vipaaka-paccaya) given by U Narada (Guide To Conditional Relations, > part I, pp. 54-55), for your consideration and/or comment. I think it > is relevant to this discussion: > > "Definition. The condition where the conditioning state relates by > making the associated states, the conditioned states, that arise > together with it as passive, calm and peaceful as itself - and which > is so because it is the result of kamma - it is known as resultant > condition. ... #70384 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 10:30 am Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip moellerdieter Hi Htoo (and Robert), nice to hear from you again .. I hope you are well though wondering about your indrect way of communication .. ;-) I will reply to your mail later and would appreciate your comment as well in respect to my last message to Robert with Metta Dieter #70385 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 10:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip jonoabb Hi Dieter (and Howard) and All Many thanks for the detailed explanation of the simile. Actually, I was asking about the reference to bath powder. Do we know what bath powder is, why it is made into a ball, and what its characteristics are? Anyone? Jon PS Thanks for the kind words about the list. We hope you find your time here pleasant and rewarding. #70386 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 10:41 am Subject: The four Right Efforts jonoabb Hi Howard Thanks for clarifying the assignment ;-)) I'd like to summarise/ precis the 3 sutta texts you've quoted. Note that the first two texts deal with the same 4 classifications of viriya/padhaana. A. From SN 45.8: Right effort is [the case] where a monk generates desire, endeavours, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of: [i] the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: B. From AN 4.14: The 4 exertions are: [i] the exertion to guard, [ii] the exertion to abandon [iii] the exertion to develop [iv] the exertion to maintain C. From AN 2.19: Abandon what is unskilful Develop what is skilful Howard: ... I just do not see how those four different types of purposeful activity, conventional activities recommended to the Buddha's followers in many places, can be characterized as "the effort that accompanies a moment of (mundane) path consciousness." The four right efforts, throughout the suttas, are presented as regular practice to engage in. Jon: If you take a close look at the wording you will not find any necessary implication of 'regular practice to engage in'. That would be an inference drawn from the text. Nor in fact will you find any necessary implication of 'purposeful activity' or 'conventional activities'. Let my try to explain why. In Text A, the words "There is the case where" are important. They indicate that a situation is being described. They are not words of exhortation to do anything, to undertake some kind of conventional activity. The reading is: Right effort is where there *is in fact* any of the 4 kinds of kusala that are then described, namely: [i] the non-arising of akusala i.e., restraint from akusala (= guarding of the sense doors) [ii] the abandonment of akusala that has arisen [iii] the development of kusala that has not arisen [iv] the maintaining of kusala that has arisen. Text B deals with the same 4 'right efforts'. The translation here is 'exertions', but I suspect the Pali is the same viriya/padhaana. Text C uses similar terminology (abandon, develop). This time it is in the form of an imperative. It is an exhortation to abandon akusala and to develop kusala. But again, there is no actual reference to conventional activities or regular practice. To my understanding, the 4 right efforts describe kusala, not akusala, moments of consciousness. If they were taken to be moments of consciousness that are going to result in kusala in the future, which is what I understand your reading to be, that would mean they were themselves akusala. Or do you see it differently? Howard: Your summation seems to me to be taken utterly from whole cloth, Jon, without even the slightest inkling of that perspective to be found in the suttas. But if it seems like a perfect and obvious match to you requiring no further explanation, then, of course, it would be silly for you to try to formulate one. Jon: I'm not familiar with the expression 'taken from whole cloth', but the summation I've given is what I understand the commentaries to say, and thus is not 'my' interpretation. Jon #70387 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 10:53 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Scott, S: "at what point does the perversion set in?" L: Technically it occurs at javana, but I think we could say it occurs in a subsequent mind- door process. S: "Vipallaasa occurs after the object is experienced but it must be present as each object is experienced." L: The idea is that vipallaasa _isn't_ a part of the experience of the object itself. It's a wrong (perverted) reaction. The "correct" reaction is also not part of the resultant experience. Vipallaasa is kamma, not kamma vipaka. S: "Noting Predominance Condition (adhipati-paccaya), is this the sub-category of Object- Predominance to which you refer?" L: Maybe I'm wrong here. My thought was conascent predominance would determine whether we experience pain or heat, for example, when there is contact between body consciousness and fire. But I see that conascent predominance only arises in javana. So maybe this won't work. Larry #70388 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 11:44 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable lbidd2 Hi Jon, J: "But everyone knows what good consequences are in conventional terms. They are things like good health, a comfortable life, ease of livelihood, and avoidance of extremes of weather and temperature. These are not things that are dependent on current values or tastes." L: I agree, but these examples all relate to body consciousness. What about eye consciousness? J: "The alternative [to using consensus values to determine agreeable and disagreeable] would be that only developed panna can know whether the presently experienced visible object is the result of kusala vipaka or of akusala vipaka. Would you see this as a problem?" L: What is there to know about visible data? Even if you knew the kamma that conditioned the arising of the consciousness of it you would still need something else to determine whether it was agreeable or disagreeable. It would be like getting a rock from your grandmother. You would of course love it because your grandmother gave it to you, but it might be a diamond or a piece of costume jewelry. You wouldn't be able to evaluate how good your grandmother (kamma) really was. J: "But if you knock your head on the door-frame, a new Cadillac can be just as painful as an old wreck." L: I agree. If a Cadillac runs over you that is definitely akusala kamma vipaka. And if you are a chauffeur that is not quite as agreeable as being the owner. Larry #70389 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 12:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] e-card from the English countryside nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you so much for your E-card. I am so glad to hear about your talks with your mother and also your meeting with Alan. Lodewijk just remarked how well he writes and his style is so good. I hope he will write a post some time. I remember that he repeated: seeing is abhidhamma, hearing is abhidhamma. People keep on thinking that Abhidhamma is a book or a concept. Have a good continuation with your holiday, although i do not know what surf-ari is. Nina. Op 7-apr-2007, om 17:59 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Lots of lambs in surrounding fields, daffodils, walks in bluebell > woods > and on the Sussex downs, primrose banks and pleasant times with my > mother > and extended family and a couple of friends. #70390 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 9:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 4/7/07 2:45:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > If a Cadillac runs over you that is definitely akusala kamma vipaka. ====================== Possibly just a bad brake? LOL! With manic metta, Howard #70391 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 9:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The four Right Efforts upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/7/07 1:43:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Thanks for clarifying the assignment ;-)) I'd like to summarise/ > precis the 3 sutta texts you've quoted. Note that the first two > texts deal with the same 4 classifications of viriya/padhaana. > > A. From SN 45.8: > Right effort is [the case] where a monk generates desire, endeavours, > activates persistence, upholds &exerts his intent for the sake of: > [i] the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet > arisen. > [ii] the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. > [iii] the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. > [iv] the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, > development, &culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: > > B. From AN 4.14: > The 4 exertions are: > [i] the exertion to guard, > [ii] the exertion to abandon > [iii] the exertion to develop > [iv] the exertion to maintain > > C. From AN 2.19: > Abandon what is unskilful > Develop what is skilful ------------------------------------------- Howard: The summaries of B & C are far too restrictive. Important aspects relevant to my evaluation are missing. ------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > ... I just do not see how those four different types of purposeful > activity, conventional activities recommended to the Buddha's > followers in many places, can be characterized as "the effort that > accompanies a moment of (mundane) path consciousness." The four right > efforts, throughout the suttas, are presented as regular practice to > engage in. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, I disagree with the following, and I think a look at all of B & C, and not just the bare bones that you gave, will show why. --------------------------------------- > > Jon: > If you take a close look at the wording you will not find any > necessary implication of 'regular practice to engage in'. That would > be an inference drawn from the text. Nor in fact will you find any > necessary implication of 'purposeful activity' or 'conventional > activities'. Let my try to explain why. > > In Text A, the words "There is the case where" are important. They > indicate that a situation is being described. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Yeah, I know. You always jump on such locutions as proof of your "mere description" interpretation. I don't buy it. You, of course, are welcome to it though. ------------------------------------- They are not words of > > exhortation to do anything, to undertake some kind of conventional > activity. The reading is: Right effort is where there *is in fact* > any of the 4 kinds of kusala that are then described, namely: > [i] the non-arising of akusala i.e., restraint from akusala (= > guarding of the sense doors) > [ii] the abandonment of akusala that has arisen > [iii] the development of kusala that has not arisen > [iv] the maintaining of kusala that has arisen. > > Text B deals with the same 4 'right efforts'. The translation here > is 'exertions', but I suspect the Pali is the same viriya/padhaana. > > Text C uses similar terminology (abandon, develop). This time it is > in the form of an imperative. It is an exhortation to abandon > akusala and to develop kusala. But again, there is no actual > reference to conventional activities or regular practice. ------------------------------------- Howard: Main Entry: ex·hor·ta·tion Function: noun Pronunciation: "ek-"so r-'tA-sh&n, -s&r-; "eg-"zo r-, -z&r- 1 : an act or instance of exhorting 2 : language intended to incite and encourage Main Entry: ex·hort Function: verb Pronunciation: ig-'zo rt Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French exhorter, from Latin exhortari, from ex- + hortari to incite -- more at YEARN transitive senses : to incite by argument or advice : urge strongly intransitive senses : to give warnings or advice : make urgent appeals - ex·hort·er noun ------------------------------------------------------------- > > To my understanding, the 4 right efforts describe kusala, not > akusala, moments of consciousness. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know. I think that's just silly, but, hey, to each his own. ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------- > > If they were taken to be moments of consciousness that are going to > result in kusala in the future, which is what I understand your > reading to be, that would mean they were themselves akusala. Or do > you see it differently? ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Huh? What in the world would make a right effort akusala? I don't follow that at all. Doing what is useful, right, and wholesome is just that - doing what is useful, right, and wholesome. ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > Your summation seems to me to be taken utterly from whole cloth, Jon, > without even the slightest inkling of that perspective to be found in > the suttas. But if it seems like a perfect and obvious match to you > requiring no further explanation, then, of course, it would be silly > for you to try to formulate one. > > Jon: > I'm not familiar with the expression 'taken from whole cloth', but > the summation I've given is what I understand the commentaries to > say, and thus is not 'my' interpretation. -------------------------------------------- Howard: The phrase "cut (or taken, or made) from whole cloth" most simply, in U.S. English, means "without basis". --------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ===================== With metta, Howard #70392 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 2:05 pm Subject: Bhavana & the Body/Nina (Re: [dsg] a meditation tip) scottduncan2 Dear Howard (and Nina), I hope you don't mind my appearing in this thread, but I couldn't help noticing a couple of things. Feel free to put me on 'Ignore'. Nina: "This is possible: And see: aggregates, elements are ultimate ways of teaching. Aggregates are not concepts." Howard: "Of *course* they are, Nina! The rupakkhandha, the collection of all rupas, past, present, and future, is concept. The body is concept. The Tipitaka is concept. They all are concept. It seems that when a concept is important to you, you don't want it to be concept. But our wishes don't make things so." This statement of yours, Howard, certainly caught my attention! You think the aggregates are concept? Is this what your are saying? Please consider Nyanatiloka: "Khandha: the 5 'groups of existence' or 'groups of clinging' upaadaanakhandha alternative renderings: aggregates or clusters, categories of clinging's objects. These are the 5 aspects in which the Buddha has summed up all the physical and mental phenomena of existence, and which appear to the ignorant man as his ego, or personality, to wit: 1 the materiality group khandha ruupa-khandha, 2 the feeling group vedanaa-khandha, 3 the perception group sa~n~naa-khandha, 4 the mental-construction group sankhara-khandha, 5 the consciousness-group vi~n~naana-khandha Whatever there exists of material things, whether past, present or future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or near, all that belongs to the materiality group. Whatever there exists of feeling... of perception... of mental constructions... of consciousness... all that belongs to the consciousness-group...Another division is that into the 2 groups: mind 2-5 and materiality 1 naama-ruupa, whilst in Dhamma Sa"nga.nii, the first book of the Abhidhamma, all the phenomena are treated by way of 3 groups: consciousness 5, mental properties 2-4, materiality 1, in Paali citta cetasika, ruupa..." Scott: Please, in what way are the above all conceptual, if you will? N: "The namakkhandhas: citta and cetasikas arise and fall away together. That does not make them a concept." Howard: "If by "namakkhandas" PLURAL, you mean individual namas, that is so - they are paramattha dhammas. But the aggregate, the namakkhandha, is concept, pure and simple. Likewise, all the rupas, past present, and future, that make up what we call "the body" are paramattha dhammas, but the body itself is concept. There is no body independent of being conceived of as a unity." Scott: Again, what do you actually mean to be saying here? It is not clear at all, unless you mean to assert that everything is concept, which you couldn't possibly be trying to assert. Ruupa arises in a group. Citta arises with cetasikas. Are you suggesting that only citta alone without accompanying cetasikas is paramattha dhamma? Or that cetasika alone without citta is paramattha dhamma? Or that when these arise together, as is the well-known natural order of things, that then these don't exist anymore except conceptually? What, may I inquire, are you saying, if you don't mind elaborating? What do you consider to be 'real'? Nina: "Suan: Buddhaghosa also made the following statement in Atthasaalinii, page 223, in Roman edition. QUOTE 'Abhidhammo naama paramatthadesanaa' 'Abhidhamma is the ultimate way of teaching.' Thus, whenever we find in a Suttam the teachings of impermanence, misery, selflessness, aggregates, elements, venues, and Establishment of Recollection (Satipatthaana), we can know for sure that this Suttam is engaging in the ultimate way of teaching...Therefore, we now know that Suttanta Pitaka contains both the conventional way of teaching and the ultimate way of teaching." Howard: "I have no dispute with there being varying types of teaching. That is not what the issue is." Scott: What is the issue, then, Howard? If you don't dispute that there are 'varying types of teaching', and, if these varying types teach realities to be as, say, Nyanatiloka summarises above, then I think it is the issue, since you disagree with the way in which some of the 'varying teachings' present 'reality'. N: "We can also find in the Suttams the teachings of persons and sentient beings so that they can also qualify as the conventional way of teaching. For example, Metta Suttam uses sentient beings as its objects while containing items of Abhidhamma such as gentleness (mettaa or adosa in Abhidhamma parlance)." Howard: "Yes. So? Who is questioning that? Not me." Scott: Well, yes, in fact you are questioning that most directly, I think. That's why 'so', in my infinitesimal opinion. Are you not the one making assertions about the conceptuality of things? This point seems to directly deal with your imputations by noting that conventional language need not be misunderstood and can be used to teach paramattha dhammas. Nina "That is another way of saying that Suttams contains segments of Abhidhamma." Howard: "I would not put it that way. The suttas present Dhamma. There is variation in the conventionality of speech used therein. The Abhidhamma Pitaka is an attempt to formulate and summarize the Dhamma using minimal conventional speech." Scott: That is an interesting definition of the Abhidhamma Pi.taka. Do you mean to suggest that the whole thing is an exercise in literary minimalism? I thought that the Abhidhamma method was a way of listing and defining dhammas - paramattha dhammas - as well as explaining the interactions between them, among other things. Nina: "Now, let's take a closer look at the second paragraph we quoted earlier from Anangana Suttavannanaa: "There, the Buddha delivers the conventional way of teaching to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teaching in conventional terms, penetrating the meaning, and removing ignorance. On the other hand, the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of teaching to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teachings in ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and removing ignorance." The above paragraph is extremely significant in determining the goal of Suttanta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka." Howard: "This is an issue having no bearing on our discussion, Nina." Scott: Baffling. Why doesn't this bear on the discussion? The method of teaching gives rise to the content of teaching. One can't tell whether one is coming or going with all of this bearing and not bearing on the discussion. Can you show how this doesn't bear? Nina: "The first sentence shows the conventional way of teaching and its purpose. And the purpose is the gain of unique insight. Unique insight is the right view that is sammaaditthi, which is an ultimate reality, or an item of Abhidhamma. In short, Suttams not only contain segments of Abhidhamma, but also have the right view that is an item of Abhidhamma as their goal." Howard: "I think it is an unintentional put-down to say that the Sutta Pitaka contains 'segments of Abhidhamma'. The whole of the Dhamma is there in the suttas. They are the uncontestable teaching of the Buddha, and they lack for nothing. Abhidhamma is not the good and smart child, and the suttas the lesser step-child that gets hand-me-downs. Dhamma is Dhamma, and Abhidhamma is 'abhi' only in that it follows upon the Dhamma, codifying it, and based on it." Scott: Now this doesn't bear on the discussion, says I, unless your discussion is actually about how Abhidhamma is bad and Suttanta is good. Nina: "The second sentence solves the issue of whether Abhidhamma can deliver awakening at all. Yes, Abhidhamma can deliver the goods because "the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of teaching to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teachings in ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and removing ignorance." Howard: "This sort of position runs the risk of establishing "Abhidhammism" as a substitute for the Dhamma. But, again, Nina, I don't know why you are bringing up any of this. It does not deal with the matter at hand, the nature of bhavana, which I maintain is pa~n~natti, just as the human body is pa~n~natti." Scott: On topic again, I opine, if the topic is 'Abhidhamma is an inferior method of teaching Dhamma'. Where is 'the nature of bhaavaana taught, Howard? What is the final arbitrator, in your opinion? Thanks for your kind consideration, Howard. Don't forget to ignore all of this at your leisure should you wish to do so. Sincerely, Scott. #70393 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 2:47 pm Subject: Re: e-card from the English countryside kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > thank you so much for your E-card. <. . .> > Have a good continuation with your holiday, although i do not know > what surf-ari is. > Nina. > Hi Nina, This reminds me that I had meant to write to you earlier. You were worried that S & J might be on a surfing trip to the Soloman Islands. It's confusing, I know, when information comes in bits and pieces. My reference to "surfari," which is not in the dictionary, would not have helped. :-) I think the Beach Boys invented the word surfari. It is a trip (like a hunting safari) made by surfers in search of waves. Sarah, Jon and nephew Tom (?) are on their way to Morocco where, apparently, there are beautiful uncrowded beaches, and where they intend to do a lot of surfing. Ken H #70394 From: "gazita2002" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 3:51 pm Subject: Re: e-card from the English countryside gazita2002 Hello KenH, I suspect you were down at the beach last Monday morning, with your surfboard, waiting for the BIG one! :-0 patience, courage and good cheer, azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > This reminds me that I had meant to write to you earlier. You were > worried that S & J might be on a surfing trip to the Soloman Islands. > #70395 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 12:03 pm Subject: Re: Bhavana & the Body/Nina (Re: [dsg] a meditation tip) upasaka_howard Hi, Scott (and Nina) - In a message dated 4/7/07 5:08:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, scduncan@... writes: > Dear Howard (and Nina), > > I hope you don't mind my appearing in this thread, but I couldn't help > noticing a couple of things. Feel free to put me on 'Ignore'. > > Nina: "This is possible: penetrating the meaning, removing ignorance. >And see: aggregates, > elements are ultimate ways of teaching. Aggregates are not concepts." > > Howard: "Of *course* they are, Nina! The rupakkhandha, the collection > of all rupas, past, present, and future, is concept. The body is > concept. The Tipitaka is concept. They all are concept. It seems that > when a concept is important to you, you don't want it to be concept. > But our wishes don't make things so." > > This statement of yours, Howard, certainly caught my attention! You > think the aggregates are concept? Is this what your are saying? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, Scott. Every collection without exception is concept, and not paramattha dhamma, regardless of what the elements of the collection are. ------------------------------------------- > > Please consider Nyanatiloka: > > "Khandha: the 5 'groups of existence' or 'groups of clinging' > upaadaanakhandha alternative renderings: aggregates or clusters, > categories of clinging's objects. These are the 5 aspects in which the > Buddha has summed up all the physical and mental phenomena of > existence, and which appear to the ignorant man as his ego, or > personality, to wit: > > 1 the materiality group khandha ruupa-khandha, > 2 the feeling group vedanaa-khandha, > 3 the perception group sa~n~naa-khandha, > 4 the mental-construction group sankhara-khandha, > 5 the consciousness-group vi~n~naana-khandha > > Whatever there exists of material things, whether past, present or > future, one's own or external, gross or subtle, lofty or low, far or > near, all that belongs to the materiality group. Whatever there exists > of feeling... of perception... of mental constructions... of > consciousness... all that belongs to the consciousness-group...Another > division is that into the 2 groups: mind 2-5 and materiality 1 > naama-ruupa, whilst in Dhamma Sa"nga.nii, the first book of the > Abhidhamma, all the phenomena are treated by way of 3 groups: > consciousness 5, mental properties 2-4, materiality 1, in Paali citta > cetasika, ruupa..." > > Scott: Please, in what way are the above all conceptual, if you will? --------------------------------------------- Howard: Every one of the foregoing, and every collection of every sort is concept. No collection is a rupa or a member of any other khandha. Anything that is neither nama nor rupa is pa~n~natti. That's the story, and most especially the Abhidhamma story. ------------------------------------------- > > N: "The namakkhandhas: citta and cetasikas arise and fall away > together. That does not make them a concept." > > Howard: "If by "namakkhandas" PLURAL, you mean individual namas, that > is so - they are paramattha dhammas. But the aggregate, the > namakkhandha, is concept, pure and simple. Likewise, all the rupas, > past present, and future, that make up what we call "the body" are > paramattha dhammas, but the body itself is concept. There is no body > independent of being conceived of as a unity." > > Scott: Again, what do you actually mean to be saying here? It is not > clear at all, unless you mean to assert that everything is concept, > which you couldn't possibly be trying to assert. Ruupa arises in a > group. Citta arises with cetasikas. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Scott, are you unaware of the difference between a single phenomenon and a collection of phenomena? Rupas arise in groups, and cittas arise with cetasikas. That is, these individual realities co-occur. They are, each one of them, a paramattha dhamma. Any group of them, however, is concept, and *not* a paramattha dhamma. A group of rupas is called a "kalapa". A kalapa is neither a nama nor a rupa. You will not find it in any list of dhammas. It is pa~n~natti. (Please don'tignore this, but let it sink in.) --------------------------------------- > > Are you suggesting that only citta alone without accompanying > cetasikas is paramattha dhamma? > -------------------------------------- Howard: A single citta (i.e., vi~n~nana or consciousness) is itself, a paramattha dhamma. Each cetasika accompanying it is also, itself, a paramattha dhamma. The collection of all of them, sometimes referred to collectively as a "mindstate" is not a paramattha dhamma. It belongs to no khandha. It is pa~n~natti. ----------------------------------------- Or that cetasika alone without citta > > is paramattha dhamma? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yep! ------------------------------------------ Or that when these arise together, as is the > well-known natural order of > things, that then these don't exist > anymore except conceptually? > --------------------------------------- Howard: Not at all. When these arise together, each one of them is present and exists. But the GROUP does not, except conventionally. That's the story, Scott. If you are uncomfortable with that, then it is Abhidhamma that is making you uncomfortable. This distinction between paramattha dhammas and pa~n~nati occurs in the Abhidhamma explicitly, but only implicitly in the suttas. I think it is an important and valid distinction, though. --------------------------------------- What, may I inquire, are you saying, if> > you don't mind elaborating? What do you consider to be 'real'? -------------------------------------- Howard: What I am telling you here is the position of Abhidhamma. The matter of "reality" is somewhat othogonal to this. As far as "reality" is concerned, my view of this is somewhat different from Khun Sujin's, mainly terminologically. I speak of degrees of "reality". I would not, for example, say a human body (yours or mine) is utterly "unreal". I would say, however, that it is *less* real than the rupas that are its basis. It is a more contingent reality. I would say that it is dependent not only on prior conditions, but also on the rupas that are its basis and on the mentality imputing a unity upon that basis. But Abhidhammic terminology, at least that of Khun Sujin, would be to say that it is unreal. I say it is *less* real than the rupas underlying it. -------------------------------------------------- > > Nina: "Suan: Buddhaghosa also made the following statement in > Atthasaalinii, page 223, in Roman edition. > > QUOTE > 'Abhidhammo naama paramatthadesanaa' > > 'Abhidhamma is the ultimate way of teaching.' > > Thus, whenever we find in a Suttam the teachings of impermanence, > misery, selflessness, aggregates, elements, venues, and Establishment > of Recollection (Satipatthaana), we can know for sure that this > Suttam is engaging in the ultimate way of teaching...Therefore, we now > know that Suttanta Pitaka contains both the conventional way of > teaching and the ultimate way of teaching." > > Howard: "I have no dispute with there being varying types of teaching. > That is not what the issue is." > > Scott: What is the issue, then, Howard? > ------------------------------------ Howard: Scott! Do I have to repeat it 84,000 times? ----------------------------------- If you don't dispute that> > there are 'varying types of teaching', and, if these varying types > teach realities to be as, say, Nyanatiloka summarises above, then I > think it is the issue, since you disagree with the way in which some > of the 'varying teachings' present 'reality'. ------------------------------------- Howard: Abhidhamma teaches that collections are pa~n~natti. That is why trees, people, animals, the Tipitaka, the planet earth, and email lists are all pa~n~natti. That is why Nagasena's chariot is pa~n~natti. The chariot is without self because it is a composite of elements and exists as a unity only in dependence on being thought of so. --------------------------------------- > > N: "We can also find in the Suttams the teachings of persons and > sentient beings so that they can also qualify as the conventional way > of teaching. For example, Metta Suttam uses sentient beings as its > objects while containing items of Abhidhamma such as gentleness > (mettaa or adosa in Abhidhamma parlance)." > > Howard: "Yes. So? Who is questioning that? Not me." > > Scott: Well, yes, in fact you are questioning that most directly, I > think. ---------------------------------- Howard: Well, Scott, you think wrong. You don't understand this issue, and I can't seem to do anything about that. ------------------------------ > That's why 'so', in my infinitesimal opinion. Are you not the > one making assertions about the conceptuality of things? This point > seems to directly deal with your imputations by noting that > conventional language need not be misunderstood and can be used to > teach paramattha dhammas. --------------------------------------- Howard: I haven't a clue what you are talking about. --------------------------------------- > > Nina "That is another way of saying that Suttams contains segments > of Abhidhamma." > > Howard: "I would not put it that way. The suttas present Dhamma. There > is variation in the conventionality of speech used therein. The > Abhidhamma Pitaka is an attempt to formulate and summarize the Dhamma > using minimal conventional speech." > > Scott: That is an interesting definition of the Abhidhamma Pi.taka. > Do you mean to suggest that the whole thing is an exercise in literary > minimalism? I thought that the Abhidhamma method was a way of listing > and defining dhammas - paramattha dhammas - as well as explaining the > interactions between them, among other things. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I meant exactly what I said. ------------------------------------------ > > Nina: "Now, let's take a closer look at the second paragraph we quoted > earlier from Anangana Suttavannanaa: > > "There, the Buddha delivers the conventional way of teaching to those > who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teaching in > conventional terms, penetrating the meaning, and removing ignorance. > On the other hand, the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of teaching > to those who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the > teachings in ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and removing > ignorance." > > The above paragraph is extremely significant in determining the goal > of Suttanta Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka." > > Howard: "This is an issue having no bearing on our discussion, Nina." > > Scott: Baffling. Why doesn't this bear on the discussion? The method > of teaching gives rise to the content of teaching. One can't tell > whether one is coming or going with all of this bearing and not > bearing on the discussion. Can you show how this doesn't bear? -------------------------------------- Howard: Does "Eleven is larger than four" have bearing? The issue was a clear and delimited one, Scott: What alleged paramattha dhamma is bhavana? I say the correct answer is "none", and I have read nothing to the contrary. Bhavana is pa~n~natti, but it is not unreal. -------------------------------------- > > Nina: "The first sentence shows the conventional way of teaching and > its purpose. And the purpose is the gain of unique insight. Unique > insight is the right view that is sammaaditthi, which is an ultimate > reality, or an item of Abhidhamma. > > In short, Suttams not only contain segments of Abhidhamma, but also > have the right view that is an item of Abhidhamma as their goal." > > Howard: "I think it is an unintentional put-down to say that the Sutta > Pitaka contains 'segments of Abhidhamma'. The whole of the Dhamma is > there in the suttas. They are the uncontestable teaching of the > Buddha, and they lack for nothing. Abhidhamma is not the good and > smart child, and the suttas the lesser step-child that gets > hand-me-downs. Dhamma is Dhamma, and Abhidhamma is 'abhi' > only in that it follows upon the Dhamma, codifying it, and based on it." > > Scott: Now this doesn't bear on the discussion, says I, unless your > discussion is actually about how Abhidhamma is bad and Suttanta is good. ---------------------------------- Howard: It was a statement in response to what I considered an inappropriate description of the suttas with respect to Abhidhamma. I had a right to make the statement. ------------------------------------ > > Nina: "The second sentence solves the issue of whether Abhidhamma can > deliver awakening at all. Yes, Abhidhamma can deliver the goods > because "the Buddha delivers the ultimate way of teaching to those > who are capable of gaining unique insight by hearing the teachings in > ultimate terms, penetating the meaning, and removing ignorance." > > Howard: "This sort of position runs the risk of establishing > "Abhidhammism" as a substitute for the Dhamma. But, again, Nina, I > don't know why you are bringing up any of this. It does not deal with > the matter at hand, the nature of bhavana, which I maintain is > pa~n~natti, just as the human body is pa~n~natti." > > Scott: On topic again, I opine, if the topic is 'Abhidhamma is an > inferior method of teaching Dhamma'. Where is 'the nature of > bhaavaana taught, Howard? What is the final arbitrator, in your opinion? ------------------------------------------- Howard: Again, I haven't a clue what you are talking about. I never said 'Abhidhamma is an inferior method of teaching Dhamma'!! Who are you quoting, Scott??? ------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for your kind consideration, Howard. Don't forget to ignore > all of this at your leisure should you wish to do so. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Damn! Too late! ------------------------------------------ > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > ===================== With metta, Howard #70396 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 2:00 pm Subject: Concepts Need not be "Unreal"/Scott (Re: Bhavana & the Body/Nina) upasaka_howard Hi again, Scott (and Nina) - A bit more about concepts and "reality": Imagine that you are sitting at the table "looking at a cup". During that time, you are experiencing a cup, or, more properly, you are having an experience that I will refer to as the "cup image". You definitely are having that experience, and, in that sense, the cup image is not unreal. It is, however, not actually a visual rupa. It is not a visual phenomenon at all. In fact, it is not a paramattha dhamma observed through any door at all. It is a mental construct, constructed by a multitude of sankharic fabrications, combining percepts (elementary conceptual experiences) carved out by sa~n~na operating on multitudes of different visible objects (entire "scenes"), and thus, the cup image is a constructed experience produced from a huge aggregate of related rupas by incredibly complex mental operations. That is what makes it concept and not paramattha dhamma. But it is actually experienced, and the experience had a paramatthic basis, and thus it is not an utter unreality. Scott, I hope this is clear and that it gives you some perspective on my understanding of the psychology of perception. I think it is compatible with both sutta and Abhidhamma. With metta, Howard #70397 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 6:34 pm Subject: Bhavana & the Body/Nina (Re: [dsg] a meditation tip) scottduncan2 Dear Howard (and Nina), Thank you for your reply. I'm sorry for having exasperated you. Now, Howard, the below I've cut from the end and pasted here. It was good to return to the central question for a moment. I appreciate the way you ended your post with this reminder: Howard: "Does 'Eleven is larger than four' have bearing? The issue was a clear and delimited one, Scott: What alleged paramattha dhamma is bhavana? I say the correct answer is "none", and I have read nothing to the contrary. Bhavana is pa~n~natti, but it is not unreal." Scott: Howard, here you suggest that bhaavaana is pa~n~natti, in order to refute the statement that bhaavaana is paramattha-dhamma. I'd like you to remind me, if you would, of where it was said that bhaavaana was a paramattha dhamma, although if the exercise seems liable to drive you to distraction, please feel free to desist. I believe this is what you said that Nina said, when you misunderstood her - I consider - lo a few posts ago. When she returns after a bit of a rest, she will likely patiently continue with her discussion. You and Nina may, of course, be discussing at cross-purposes because very clearly you and Nina differ as to the essential meaning of bhaavaana, as far as I can tell of course. Just to make give own miniscule opinion on the matter, I don't think bhaavaana, that is 'mental development', is or could be paramattha dhamma. I don't think Nina ever said it was, mind you (I await the quote) and for that matter, because I don't think she would misunderstand this. When dhammas arise and fall away -and I would say this could be wholesome or unwholesome dhammas - in succession, this is, at its most basic, bhaavaana or 'mental development'. Why do I say this is so? Well, Howard, because the arising and falling away of any given dhamma creates conditions for future arising and falling away of that dhamma or related dhammas. In this way they develop, you see? Here, Howard, we are dealing with 'process', with 'dynamisms', with 'movement' if you take my meaning (and, of course, don't take these words literally). And, again of course, when one begins to discuss movement, or notions of things which do things, then we are dealing squarely with pa~n~natti, again as to the best of my limited ability to understand these sorts of things. Does this make more sense now? Howard: "Yes, Scott. Every collection without exception is concept, and not paramattha dhamma, regardless of what the elements of the collection are." Scott: I'm truly thick, Howard, at least as far as the attempt to find success in penetrating what you are suggesting here. Please bear with me if at all possible. Nyanatiloka's statement, snipped: "Buddha has summed up all the physical and mental phenomena of existence, and which appear to the ignorant man as his ego, or personality, to wit: 1 the materiality group khandha ruupa-khandha, 2 the feeling group vedanaa-khandha, 3 the perception group sa~n~naa-khandha, 4 the mental-construction group sankhara-khandha, 5 the consciousness-group vi~n~naana-khandha" And your own position: Howard: "Every one of the foregoing, and every collection of every sort is concept. No collection is a rupa or a member of any other khandha. Anything that is neither nama nor rupa is pa~n~natti. That's the story, and most especially the Abhidhamma story." Scott: I'd be pleased were you to be able to show how this is the case, that is, that khandhas are concepts because they are collections. Perhaps you can refer me to the appropriate Abhidhamma text. I'd appreciate it. In the meantime, I hope you don't mind if I provide a bit from the PTS PED definition of khandha, as you can see, in the 'absolute' sense. Perhaps this might clarify things further: "...B. (absolute) in individual sense: constituent element, factor, substantiality. More especially as khandhaa (pl.) the elements or substrata of sensory existence, sensorial aggregates which condition the appearance of life in any form. Their character according to quality and value of life and body is evanescent, fraught with ills & leading to rebirth...They are usually enumerated in the foll. stereotyped set of 5: ruupaa (material qualities), vedanaa (feeling), sa~n~naa (perception), sankhaaraa (coefficients of consciousness), vi~n~na.naa (consciousness)..." Scott: Now here, Howard, in the above, and with the caveat that the PTS PED is not necessarily the best source of definitions at all times, when khandhaa is defined as 'elements or substrata of sensory experience' we can clearly see that this does not refer in any way to pa~n~natti, does it? Howard: "Scott, are you unaware of the difference between a single phenomenon and a collection of phenomena? Rupas arise in groups, and cittas arise with cetasikas. That is, these individual realities co-occur. They are, each one of them, a paramattha dhamma. Any group of them, however, is concept, and *not* a paramattha dhamma. A group of rupas is called a "kalapa". A kalapa is neither a nama nor a rupa. You will not find it in any list of dhammas. It is pa~n~natti. (Please don'tignore this, but let it sink in.)" Scott: I appreciate, Howard, the reminder that there is a difference between a single phenomenon and a collection of phenomena. This is often an important distinction to keep in mind. I'll be certain not to ignore this important distinction and will hope, as do you, that it truly sinks in. Can you please elaborate on this point you are making that, when an individual phenomenon, which is a paramattha dhamma, ceases to be a paramattha dhamma when it is part of a collection of phenomena? In particular I'd very much like to learn how, since it is impossible for cetasika to arise without citta or for citta to arise without cetasika, for example, in what way your thesis applies. Might you kindly take the time to clarify this? And with a ruupa-kalapa as well, now that you mention it again; it is impossible that a single dhaatu should ever arise without the others. Does pathavii-dhaatu, for example, cease to be paramattha-dhamma the moment it arises with the other three? To me this seems unusual since they all have to arise at once, every time and all the time, at least as far as I've been given to understand this. Please elaborate. For instance, you state: Howard: "Not at all. When these arise together, each one of them is present and exists. But the GROUP does not, except conventionally. That's the story, Scott. If you are uncomfortable with that, then it is Abhidhamma that is making you uncomfortable. This distinction between paramattha dhammas and pa~n~nati occurs in the Abhidhamma explicitly, but only implicitly in the suttas. I think it is an important and valid distinction, though." Scott: Here, Howard, I am not even treading water when it comes to this particular way of viewing things you present above. Since they do arise together, and since they are paramattha dhammas, can you please exlain how the unalterable fact of their constant conascent arising, they cease to be paramattha dhammas as a result? Howard: "...As far as "reality" is concerned, my view of this is somewhat different from Khun Sujin's, mainly terminologically. I speak of degrees of "reality"...I say it is *less* real than the rupas underlying it." Scott: Ah, thanks Howard, I recall this. I'm very sorry to say I think it is untenable, at least for me. It does help me see how you are viewing the entire discussion though. I'd like to agree to disagree with you here, unless you'd like to be shown more about this. Howard: "Scott! Do I have to repeat it 84,000 times?" Scott: Again, I apologise for discombobulating you. I shall leave off at this point, for fear of further raising your ire. As usual, a reply is always nice, but so might igoring me - feel free to do either. Sincerely, Scott. #70398 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 6:50 pm Subject: Concepts Need not be "Unreal"/Scott (Re: Bhavana & the Body/Nina) scottduncan2 Dear Howard (and Nina), Sorry, I was working on the last reply when this one arrived. I'll try to address it: Howard: "A bit more about concepts and "reality": Imagine that you are sitting at the table "looking at a cup". During that time, you are experiencing a cup, or, more properly, you are having an experience that I will refer to as the "cup image". You definitely are having that experience, and, in that sense, the cup image is not unreal. It is, however, not actually a visual rupa. It is not a visual phenomenon at all. In fact, it is not a paramattha dhamma observed through any door at all. It is a mental construct, constructed by a multitude of sankharic fabrications, combining percepts (elementary conceptual experiences) carved out by sa~n~na operating on multitudes of different visible objects (entire "scenes"), and thus, the cup image is a constructed experience produced from a huge aggregate of related rupas by incredibly complex mental operations. That is what makes it concept and not paramattha dhamma. But it is actually experienced, and the experience had a paramatthic basis, and thus it is not an utter unreality." I appreciate the clarity with which you set out your thesis. 'Cup' is a mental construct. Howard: "Scott, I hope this is clear and that it gives you some perspective on my understanding of the psychology of perception. I think it is compatible with both sutta and Abhidhamma." Scott: It seems clearly stated but, I fear, I can't see how it is anything other than dhamma-cised conventional theory of perception, with a sprinkling of maybe some sort of cognitive neuroscience. I'm sorry, Howard, that I can't see it otherwise, but thanks. If your willing to show how this is compatible with the Sutta and Abhidhamma, I'd be interesting in examining the fine points of it. Sincerely, Scott. #70399 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Apr 7, 2007 7:03 pm Subject: Bhavana & the Body/Nina (Re: [dsg] a meditation tip) scottduncan2 Dear Howard, A typo - and no broken keyboard: "...As usual, a reply is always nice, but so might igoring me - feel free to do either." That should be, of course, 'ignoring'. I'm not sure I know what it would be to 'igore' someone but please don't do it - I don't like the association to what bulls do to those manly sorts who run with them... Sincerely, Scott.