#71000 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry nilovg Dear Han, It has a purpose to ask me to elaborate. You did this before (on the guarlands!) and it worked so well on me. I make new discoveries when thinking things over. It is a service to me. Nina. Op 23-apr-2007, om 14:06 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > As regards Nina’s article, there are many useful > points which are really note-worthy. At first, I > thought of highlighting those passages. But I thought > if I did that, I might only be dotting her i’s and > crossing her t’s, and might be accused of being biased > because I like her writings! #71001 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina's little book on the Perfections 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk & Sarah) - In a message dated 4/23/07 3:19:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Speaking of a story, Howard kindly asked after my health. Tomorrow I > hear the result of some heart tests (but they seemed good). > -------------------------------- Howard: Good! I hope there are no surprises except for a positive one of your heart being even better than hoped for. -------------------------------- The > > doctor is someone who sees patients like objects of science, that is > all. But I try not to be involved with stories about him, also his > not so good temper when he sees Lodewijk coming along! > -------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! It seems many doctors are like that in all parts of the world!! Well, I hope the doctor's technical expertise outweighs his miserable "bedside manner". -------------------------------- In the > > ultimate sense there is hearing, seeing, thinking. As Kh Sujin said: > they are just dhammas. Such a saying is full of meaning. We cannot do > anything about dhammas that appear and we never know what appears the > next moment. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Oh, sure we can, Nina - about dhammas not yet arisen, and we do so all the time; but I'll leave that for a discussion some other time! ;-)) ------------------------------------- So many surprises in life .> I hope you write more on the story of life. =================== Yes, many surprises - no doubt about that. May all of us write more stories of life, Nina, good ones - beneficial and happy! With metta, Howard #71002 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:49 am Subject: Re: Self and Other (Re: [dsg] what is sati, to Niddhi) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Lodewijk) - In a message dated 4/23/07 3:24:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > This reminds me of discussions with Lodewijk about: there is no > person. It is true that there are different individuals, but these > are fleeting, ephemeral phenomena. It is certainly necessary to > distinguish this individual from that one, different accumulated > experiences, different inclinations. That is why Lodewijk said: the > language is not right when you say: there is no Nina, no Lodewijk. He > believes in the truth of anatta, but thinks the way it is expressed > needs care. > On the other hand, when one is familiar with citta, cetasika and > rupa, one can also take it as a forceful reminder: where is this > person we name Lodewijk? He is still there but do not think he is > there forever. Even now all the rupas of his body fall away, from > head to toe. And the cittas change even faster. But we forget. It is > the way you take it. > Nina. ====================== I like your response very much, Nina! I would even be comfortable with a stronger one that would say that not only is there no *lasting* person "Lodewijk" or "Nina" or "Howard", but only a conventional person, or, more precisely, that there is only the convention of persons. It does no harm to say this at all, so long as it is also understood that the basis for the convention of a person really exists, namely the underlying flow of interconnected experiential phenomena (dhammas). The codifiers of the Abhidhamma Pitaka were wise to include the Patthana whose synthetic approach serves as a balance to the analytic approach of the Dhammasangani. I suspect that paying too little attention to either of those two books can lead some Abhidhammikas astray. Not enough of the analytic approach can lead to belief in the reality of what is merely conventional, the grossest form of error, and not enough of the synthetic approach can lead to a) being able to "see the trees (i.e., dhammas)" but as self-existent entities, and b) being unable to see how they comprise a forest (a complex of interrelated dhammas), these latter two errors, a) and b), being opposite sides of the same bad coin. With metta, Howard #71003 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vibhanga: Analysis of Knowledge (Nina's and Sarah's B'day Present) nilovg Dear TG, I looked up the quotes you gave in the Vibhanga and they made me think of the Buddha's Omniscience. That was all. I forgot about your further remarks. But Sarah has given more details. Nina. Op 22-apr-2007, om 22:05 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > TG: I don't understand this answer. The Buddha has instructed > others in > many suttas to be aware of these things. Its has nothing to do with "a > Buddha's omniscience #71004 From: han tun Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry hantun1 Dear Nina (and Sarah), > > Han: As regards Nina’s article, there are many useful points which are really note-worthy. At first, I thought of highlighting those passages. But I thought if I did that, I might only be dotting her i’s and crossing her t’s, and might be accused of being biased because I like her writings! > Nina: It has a purpose to ask me to elaborate. You did this before (on the guarlands!) and it worked so well on me. I make new discoveries when thinking things over. It is a service to me. Han: I am glad to know that. Without any flattery, I say that your writings are always clear, succinct and short to the point – nothing more, nothing less. I also admire your unwavering faith in your own writing. You think before you write anything, and after writing it you will not be influenced by any different opinion, because you always have solid literature reference to back up your statement. Therefore, if I have some points to be clarified I ask you. Otherwise, if I say that ‘this passage is good or useful’ I am afraid it might be superfluous, because they ARE good and useful. But now that I know the purpose to ask you to elaborate, I will come back to your article and do that at a later stage. Respectfully, Han #71005 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? egberdina Hi RobK, On 23/04/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > Dear Herman > The Dhamma is greatly respected by the arahant because it is by > following it that he became arahant and is now free of being reborn. > This he waits for death patiently , as a good worker waits for his > wages, paid for a job well done. > Consider how terrible samsara is- even just one aeon is so long. And > for more aeons than grains of sand in the ocean we have been > continually dying and being reborn. And most of our lives were as > animals or hell beings- few as human or gods. > The beings who do not see the danger of samsara, who do not realse > they will be reborn, are like a blind man walking towards a cliff, > happily oblivious to the pain and suffering that is their future. > Robert You scare me Robert, in the same way that Creationists who also hold down jobs at universities, scare me when they give literal and authoritative readings of their great book. It's scary because universities are meant to be places of learning. Herman #71006 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate egberdina Hi Scott, On 23/04/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > Thanks for the reply: > > H: "I have always wondered how people "know" what the meaning of Pali > words should be. How does one get from a Pali word to an English > understanding with any semblance of certainty of not having > contributed something that wasn't there? This is not as fodder for > disputation, but I just have no idea how anyone today can claim > certainty about these things. Not to mention that the discourses > weren't even given in Pali." > > Scott: How then, to deal with what we have of the Buddha's teachings, > and in the form we have them? Do you suggest the texts are bankrupt? > I don't think Pali is as mysterious and unknown as you seem to > indicate. Is it? > No, the texts are the texts. In themselves they are devoid of meaning. In studying the texts you will only find out about yourself, not some absolute reality. > H: "I have some first hand knowledge of learning English from scratch > as a teenager with a Dutch mother-tongue, and I know that that was a > process of trial and error. I tried, made errors, and I could only be > corrected by those fluent in English. Who are the Pali authorities > that will correct us?" > > Scott: I think, again, that we must make do. I'm not sure of the > point of this particular argument. There are enough Pali scholars and > there is enough agreement, I would think (no proof though). > I find the study of the evolution of languages very interesting. Certainly languages like Pali and Latin do not evolve much, because they were not anyone's native tongue. But this means of course that all understanding of Pali and Latin words is in other languages, which do evolve. Such simple words like anatta and dukkha create such enormous problems, what do they mean? > H: "I think that the pressing nature of having to study the Pali texts > would come from a prior decision that these texts contain matters of > ultimate importance. To then properly study these texts one would need > various Rosetta stones, whose validity again rest on a prior decision > that such and such commentaries will be Rosetta stones, and those over > there won't. What actually happens is that we are not so much studying > the texts, but we have decided to assume the view of a certain > tradition." > > Scott: This is apparently consistent. It seems to imply that nothing > of the texts is to be trusted. > It seems to me that such simple words like anatta and dukkha are translated according to which school of thought one belongs to. It is obvious that trust is placed in the tradition rather than the texts. > H: "This, to me, would be quite unsatisfactory. Happily, much of the > texts are about the way things are. And that is available for > investigation and confirmation, which is study of a different kind. No > Rosetta stones required, only the willingness to discover thickets of > views." > > Scott: These texts which are referred to above, I wonder which ones > they are? And where do they come from? And how did they come to be > in the form they are such that they are read and understood to be > about 'the way things are'? And what Rosetta stones were used? And > who decided to use those particular ones? If I recall, the Rosetta > stone was only a fragment of three or four dead languages and allowed > for a reconstruction of them in order to reconstitute them. I don't > think Pali was ever as near the brink of extinction as to require such > a thing. > > If, as it seems from the above argument, it is impossible to be > certain of anything regarding the current Theravaadin canon, how then > can it be said that one can learn 'the way things are' from these > texts and go about investigating and confirming it? If the texts say to not neglect seclusion and to cease discursive thinking, for example, and you find that the experiences as written in the text coincide with your own, then you have investigated and confirmed them. > > Doesn't this amount to saying that the Dhamma is not knowable, due to > the ambiguous condition of the texts, *and* that the Dhamma is > knowable by application to these same ambiguous texts, which one can > then investigate and confirm? > What it says is that dhammas are not found in books, and that a student of texts is not a student of dhammas. Herman #71007 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire egberdina Hi Rahula and Howard, > I tried to frame an answer, but couldn't. All I can say is that it is a very insightful question. I'll pick at your answer instead, Howard :-). Rahula asked for a Sutta perspective, but I see only Abhidhamma in your answer. Herman #71008 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire TGrand458@... Hi Rahula In a message dated 4/23/2007 6:19:53 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, rahula_80@... writes: Hi, It has been some tie since I posted here. There is an issue that trouble me off and on. If Arahant or the Buddha do not have any desire, wouldn't they be just sitting there doing nothing? This is because they do not have any desire to eat, move, teach, stand up or to do anything at all. Can someone help me to see the light from the perspective of the Pali Suttas? Thanks, Rahula TG: The Buddha and arahats have eliminated "desire based on the sense-of-self." That is the desire based on "cravings that arise in conjunction with ignorance and with minds that are fettered." Desires that are unfettered, based on insight and wisdom, do not produce suffering and the Buddha and arahats do engage in those acts. Perhaps they would be better referred to as "intentions" instead of desires. TG #71009 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue TGrand458@... Hi Robert A. In a message dated 4/23/2007 11:26:40 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, avalo1968@... writes: Hello DSG, In most discussions of Buddhist teachings, if the question would be asked - Why practice virtue? - the answer would be something along the lines that this practice brings non-harming, joy, calm, is helpful to meditation practice, and leads to good rebirth. As I have been reading the postings on this group, there seems to be some question about the usefulness of meditation and also whether states of mind can be thought of as 'good' - is calm good and agitation not good? So, I would be very interested is the opinions of the regular members of this group on the subject - why practice virtue? Thank you Robert A. TG: The reasons would be as you stated in your first paragraph ... and in addition and most importantly -- virtue stabilizes the mind so that it can "see" deeper ... in developing insight and assisting in overcoming suffering. Insight is perhaps the greatest virtue. TG #71010 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire buddhatrue Hi Herman, Rahula, and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I tried to frame an answer, but couldn't. All I can say is that it is > a very insightful question. I'll pick at your answer instead, Howard > :-). Rahula asked for a Sutta perspective, but I see only Abhidhamma > in your answer. > You might like to read this article titled "Nibbana as Living Experience" to get some insight into how the arahant lives and what he/she experiences. It predominately uses sutta references: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/desilva/wheel407.html Metta, James #71011 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vibhanga: Analysis of Knowledge (Nina's and Sarah's B'day Present) TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 4/23/2007 4:17:56 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Just looking at the brief passages in the Vibhanga on its own, I couldn't have said if this is what is being referred to here, however, though I would assume so. (There can also be wisdom accompaning thoughts of past or future where the object is a concept as you say and recall with jhanic powers of past lives without any development of vipassana, where concepts are again the object). ..... TG: Yea, it could be. But it might be less convoluted. It may be that the "past" and "future" and "external" are brought in as aspects to highlight the "principles" of nature ... impermanent, afflicting, and no-self. It is insight into these principles which lead to enlightenment. Vipassana practice is not done for the primary purpose of "discovering realities." Vipassana practice is done primarily so that actual (real time) experiences are recognized as impermanent, afflicting, and no-self. This "actual experience," along with knowledge of natures principles, as also applied conceptually to the past, future, and external; generate lots of momentum in the mind...that allow the mind to "detach" from conditionality. And it is THIS that is the POINT of vipassana practice. >This would also be the case with external object > based wisdom. Do > you agree? .... S: It may just be referring to wisdom of external objects such as visible objects or sound (from outside the body). Tangible objects can be internal (of the body) or external (outside the body). Whether touching the hardness of this body or the table, the reality is just hardness, so it's merely a conceptual differentiation for clarification only. .... > If this is the case, it seems some of the wisdom the Buddha taught is > NOT > based on knowing the present moment; but rather, insight into the nature > of > phenomena whether that knowledge arise due to awareness of the present > moment, > or by other means. .... S: It seems to me that the Buddha taught about all kinds of wisdom or understanding. All understandings are dhammas which share particular characteristics of penetrating their object, being panna cetasika etc. However, whereas insight wisdom penetrates the present dhamma to varying degrees, other kinds of wisdom do not. So, insight wisdom always refers to the knowing of the present dhamma (in the cases mentioned of the Buddha's and key disciples penetration of past dhammas, it is as if they were present dhammas). For other kinds of wisdom, such as that developed in samatha & jhana, it is the nimitta or jhana-arammana which is understood in a way as to condition calm and so on. The wisdom in such cases is present wisdom (of course!), but as concepts don't arise or fall away, I agree we cannot say it is based on 'knowing the present moment' (or rather 'present dhamma'). .... > Happy Birthday! .... S: Thanks! Perhaps next year it'll be an Abhidhamma commentary:-S: Tha that sounds ungrateful, lol!! TG: Not ungrateful but revealing. Seems like the Abhidhamma commentaries are more highly respected than the actual Abhidhamma Pitaka. Just as I suspected. ;-)))) Thanks for the detailed reply! Meanwhile, perhaps we can pursue this (slowly, on my part). Metta, Sarah TG #71012 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Herman) - In a message dated 4/23/07 7:55:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > TG: The Buddha and arahats have eliminated "desire based on the > sense-of-self." That is the desire based on "cravings that arise in > conjunction with > ignorance and with minds that are fettered." Desires that are unfettered, > based on insight and wisdom, do not produce suffering and the Buddha and > arahats > do engage in those acts. Perhaps they would be better referred to as > "intentions" instead of desires. > > TG > > ======================= Sounds like we agree, TG, but you had the good sense not to use Abh idhammese. ;-)) With metta, Howard #71013 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 4/23/07 7:03:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > I tried to frame an answer, but couldn't. All I can say is that it is > a very insightful question. I'll pick at your answer instead, Howard > :-). Rahula asked for a Sutta perspective, but I see only Abhidhamma > in your answer. > ======================= Man, Herman! That's becoming your perpetual refrain to me these days! ;-)) Asfar as I'm concerned, having read many suttas describing the Buddha's action and speech, that is my overall view. I apologize though for using Abhidhammic formulation! These days I seem to come off as a kind of heretic in *everyone's* eyes! LOLOL! With metta, Howard P.S. Herman, forgeting the formulation - do you think I'm wrong? :-) #71014 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire egberdina Hi Howard, On 24/04/07, upasaka@... wrote: > ==== > Man, Herman! That's becoming your perpetual refrain to me these days! > ;-)) Asfar as I'm concerned, having read many suttas describing the Buddha's > action and speech, that is my overall view. I apologize though for using > Abhidhammic formulation! These days I seem to come off as a kind of heretic in > *everyone's* eyes! LOLOL! > === :-) > P.S. Herman, forgeting the formulation - do you think I'm wrong? :-) > I have no idea, to be honest, Howard. That's why I felt much more comfortable picking at your answer than coming up with my own. The following is from DN33. "The monks are free from sloth and torpor, Shariputra, you think of a discourse on Dhamma to give to them. My back aches, I want to stretch it." Whatever is said about Arahants, it seems that when they suffer from pain they want to alleviate that, and leave the instructing to someone else. It doesn't really matter what Pali word is used. (The above is not a criticism of Arahants, by the way. I would have done exactly the same thing :-)) Herman #71015 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) kenhowardau Hi James and Scott, I am sure James would never build a straw man just to knock it down. He would never put silly arguments in other people's mouths just to be seen as disproving them. ------------------ J: > I'm glad that you read the web site I linked. However, your logic really breaks down at this point. I never attacked the person; I attacked the argument. If those who claim to be converted meditators can prove that they were experts in meditation, then their claims carry some weight; if they cannot prove that they were experts in meditation, then their claims don't carry any weight. You need some more practice in debate. :-) -------------------- It is quite common for DSG meditators to say, "You should try meditation! Otherwise you will never know if it works!" However, to people who have grasped the teaching of momentary reality (conditioned nama and rupa) this will be a totally unappealing invitation. Formal meditation will never fit in with their understanding of the Dhamma. Therefore, people such a Nina, who studied and accepted the Abhidhamma explanation from the beginning, will never be interested in formal meditation. Others, including Sarah and me, will simply answer, "I was interested in it once, but now I see from my Abhidhamma study that it is not the way. Thanks all the same." No claims have ever been made on DSG to the effect that a discontinued meditation practice is somehow proof against meditation. That would be silly in the extreme. Ken H #71016 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 4/23/07 9:31:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > > "The monks are free from sloth and torpor, Shariputra, you think of a > discourse on Dhamma to give to them. My back aches, I want to stretch > it." > > Whatever is said about Arahants, it seems that when they suffer from > pain they want to alleviate that, and leave the instructing to someone > else. It doesn't really matter what Pali word is used. (The above is > not a criticism of Arahants, by the way. I would have done exactly the > same thing :-)) > ===================== Certainly this could suggest two things: 1) The Buddha could suffer, and 2) The Buddha could experience aversion. OTOH, it also alternatively suggest two other things: 3) The Buddha recognized that back pain could compromise his functioning, and 4) The Buddha deemed it useful to reduce that pain. The bottom line on this is that we don't know. But if, in fact, any so called arahant could suffer and experience aversion, then the Dhamma is nonsense. So, I tend to opt for 3) and 4) rather than 1) and 2). :-) With metta, Howard #71017 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire egberdina Hi Howard, On 24/04/07, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 4/23/07 9:31:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hhofmeister@... writes: > > > > > "The monks are free from sloth and torpor, Shariputra, you think of a > > discourse on Dhamma to give to them. My back aches, I want to stretch > > it." > > > > Whatever is said about Arahants, it seems that when they suffer from > > pain they want to alleviate that, and leave the instructing to someone > > else. It doesn't really matter what Pali word is used. (The above is > > not a criticism of Arahants, by the way. I would have done exactly the > > same thing :-)) > > > ===================== > Certainly this could suggest two things: 1) The Buddha could suffer, > and 2) The Buddha could experience aversion. > OTOH, it also alternatively suggest two other things: 3) The Buddha > recognized that back pain could compromise his functioning, and 4) The Buddha > deemed it useful to reduce that pain. > The bottom line on this is that we don't know. But if, in fact, any so > called arahant could suffer and experience aversion, then the Dhamma is > nonsense. So, I tend to opt for 3) and 4) rather than 1) and 2). :-) > This is a wonderful opportunity for me to show, in fact, what a moderate I am :-) It could also show that only some of the Tipitaka is nonsense. As in another DN Sutta Lakkhana Sutta "The Marks of a Great Man" Thus have I heard. Once the Lord was staying at Savatthi, it Jetavana, Anathapindika's park. "Monks!" He said, and the monks replied, "Lord?" The Lord Said, "There are, monks, these thirty two marks peculiar to a great man, and for that great man who possesses them, only two careers are open. If he lives the household life he will become a ruler, a wheel turning righteous monarch of the law, conqueror of the four quarters who has established the security of his realm and is possessed of the seven treasures. These are: the Wheel Treasure, the Elephant Treasure, the Horse Treasure, the Jewel Treasure, the Woman Treasure, the Householder Treasure, and, as seventh, the Counselor Treasure. He has more than a thousand sons who are heroes, of heroic stature, conquerors of the hostile army. He dwells having conquered this sea-girt land without stick or sword, by the law. But if he goes forth from the household life into homelessness, then he will become an Arahant, a fully enlightened Buddha, one who draws back the veil from the world. "And what are these thirty-two marks of a great man? I. He has feet with level tread. This is one of the marks of a great man. II. On the soles of his feet are wheels complete with felloe and hub III. He has projecting heels IV. He has long fingers and toes V. He has soft and tender hands and feet VI. His hands and feet are net-like (webbed?) VII. He has high-raised ankles VIII. His legs are like an antelopes IX. Standing and without bending, he can touch and rub his knees with either hand. X. His male organs are enclosed in a sheath. XI. His complexion is bright, the color of gold XII. His skin is delicate and so smooth that no dust can adhere to his body XIII. His body hairs are separate, one to each pore. XIV. His body hair XV. grow upwards, bluish-black like collyruim, growing in rings to the right. XVI. His body is divinely straight XVII. He has the seven convex surfaces. XVIII. The front part of his body is like a Lion's. XIX. There is no hollow between his shoulders. XX. He is proportioned like a banyan-tree: his height is as the span of his arms. XXI. His bust is evenly rounded. XXII. He has a perfect sense of taste. XXIII. He has jaws like a lions XXIV. He has forty teeth. XXV. His teeth are even. XXVI. There are no spaces between his teeth. XXVII. His canine teeth are very bright. XXVIII. His tongue is very long XXIX. He has a Brahma-like voice, like that of the Karavika-bird. XXX. His eyes are deep blue. XXXI. He has eyelashes like a cow's. XXXII. The hair between his eyebrows is white, and soft like cotton down. XXXIII. His head is like a royal turban." Herman #71018 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello TG, Thank you for your reply. Your answer is one very much in agreement with all I have learned in my study of Buddhism in the past. To see deeply is made possible as the mind is stabilized by the practices of virtue and meditation. Regards, Robert A. #71019 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:01 pm Subject: Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) buddhatrue Hi Ken H., Ken H: I am sure James would never build a straw man just to knock it down. He would never put silly arguments in other people's mouths just to be seen as disproving them. James: ;-)) What is wrong with you? Have you lost your marbles or something? You keep making veiled accusations about me but never provide any specifics. What is it about me that irritates you so much? Actually, you don't need to answer that….I don't care. Ken H.: It is quite common for DSG meditators to say, "You should try meditation! Otherwise you will never know if it works!" James: My position is that, yes, you should try it to see if it works for you. However, if you give it an honest try and find that it doesn't work, then give it up. And then accept the fact that there are those it works for and that it is a practice the Buddha taught as Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. Ken H.: However, to people who have grasped the teaching of momentary reality (conditioned nama and rupa) this will be a totally unappealing invitation. Formal meditation will never fit in with their understanding of the Dhamma. James: This is a complete generalization and hogwash. There are many people who study the Abhidhamma and also practice meditation. Your peculiar outlook comes from the teachings of KS, not the Abhidhamma. That is why you will see that I don't challenge the Abhidhamma that often; I challenge the teachings of KS most frequently (perhaps that is what bugs you the most??). Ken H: Therefore, people such a Nina, who studied and accepted the Abhidhamma explanation from the beginning, will never be interested in formal meditation. James: Again, total nonsense. It was Nina's association with K. Sujin that disinterested her in meditation, not the Abhidhamma. There are many people who study the Abhidhamma, are experts in Abhidhamma, and practice meditation. Do you (again) think I am lying?? Would you like me to provide you some links to their writings?? (I won't make the effort unless I know you will read them.) Ken H.: No claims have ever been made on DSG to the effect that a discontinued meditation practice is somehow proof against meditation. That would be silly in the extreme. James: Yes, it would be silly- but you do it all the time. Actually, you are doing it again in this post. There is no need to mention one's past meditation experience unless you are specifically asked about it. Any other mention is an argument of "Statement of Conversion". Metta, James #71020 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Leading to stream entry nilovg Dear Han, thank you ahead of the trouble. I also know things like that cannot be forced. I remember Larry, in the beginning of our Visuddhimagga series, he almost every day asked me questions. Those were good times, it helped me to research and consider more. Also Htoo kept on asking me at times on the Vis. about certain points and I found that very inspiring. Nina. Op 23-apr-2007, om 23:40 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But now that I know the purpose to ask you to > elaborate, I will come back to your article and > do that at a later stage. #71021 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 5:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire TGrand458@... In a message dated 4/23/2007 6:55:47 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Sounds like we agree, TG, but you had the good sense not to use Abh idhammese. ;-)) With metta, Howard Hi Howard That's funny!!! TG #71022 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:50 pm Subject: Re: Virtue kenhowardau Hi Robert A, I'm not sure how to answer this, but I will give it a try. ---------------- RA: > In most discussions of Buddhist teachings, if the question would be asked - Why practice virtue? - the answer would be something along the lines that this practice brings non-harming, joy, calm, is helpful to meditation practice, and leads to good rebirth. ------------------ If you asked that question in a non-Buddhist discussion group you would be told more or less the same things, wouldn't you? Therefore, we need to be more specific. What, exactly, is meant by 'the practice of virtue?' For example, there is often the subtle clinging, "This is my virtue." Is virtue being practised at such times? And what about the subtle conceit, "I am the one who is being virtuous?" Possibly, some discussion groups would tell you those things don't matter, while others might agree with the Buddhist position that there can be no virtue when there is clinging or conceit. But what about wrong view? How many groups would have the faintest idea of what you were talking about if you told them, 'Virtue is not self?' ------------------- RA: > As I have been reading the postings on this group, there seems to be some question about the usefulness of meditation and also whether states of mind can be thought of as 'good' - is calm good and agitation not good? So, I would be very interested is the opinions of the regular members of this group on the subject - why practice virtue? Thank you ------------------- Yes, calm is kusala and agitation is akusala. How can we know when one exists and the other does not? Remember, the pleasant and equanimous feelings that accompany [akusala] attachment can give a distinct, but false, impression of [kusala] calm. The answer is not to have more concentration. The answer is to have more understanding. Right concentration will follow automatically. Ken H #71023 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:00 pm Subject: Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Dear Herman > > The Dhamma is greatly respected by the arahant because it is by > > following it that he became arahant and is now free of being reborn. This he waits for death patiently , as a good worker waits for his > > wages, paid for a job well done. > > > You scare me Robert, in the same way that Creationists who also hold > down jobs at universities, scare me when they give literal and > authoritative readings of their great book. It's scary because > universities are meant to be places of learning. ======= Dear Herman I am not a good writer but this passage from Ledi Sayadaw is beautifully expressed and may help you. http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL05.html IV. The Burden of Dukkha in the Lower Planes Santapa dukkha: Those who arise in hell will have their bones, nerves, flesh, hearts, lungs, brains, etc., all red-hot and tongues of fire will spring out of their skins. Thus they will remain for hundreds of thousands, billions, trillions, and decillions of years, experiencing intolerable heat. So long as their resultant effects are not exhausted they will not be free from such misery. In like manner there are myriads of beings who are arising in the various lower worlds, and who are suffering there for decillions and decillions of years. (The Samvega-Vatthu also describes the santapa-dukkhe relating to the petas, ghosts, asuras (demons) and animals.) Viparinama dukkha: In the case of viparinama at the end which is the passing away, one may arise in an infernal region for a single unwholesome volitional action; and when resultant effect comes to an end, one may pass away from there due to the burden of viparinama and be reborn in a lower region which is deeper than that of one's previous existence. One may not have the opportunity to arise in the happy higher planes even after thousands of existences. Even if they happen to be reborn in the world of men for many a time, in one out of a hundred of such existences would they be able to encounter the Buddha-Dhamma and practise it. They would hold wrong views or be vicious people in a greater number of existences. . There are decillions and decillions of such beings who become 'rooted in hell' and who have no opportunity to arise in the happy course of existence. *** * enquote The worst kamma is wrong view that denies kamma and rebirth, and sadly those who hold such views are almost certain to descend to one of the hells after death. Thus we should try to help the foolish come out of their wrong ideas, it is the greatest kindebess anyone can do for another. Robert #71024 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:16 am Subject: The Stilled One ... !!! bhikkhu5 Friends: Stilling of all Feeling, Cooling of all Construction is True! The Blessed Buddha once said: Just as the oil-lamp burns on oil and wick, but after consuming of all oil and wick, through lack of fuel, the flame comes to ceasing, similarly the Bhikkhu knows when sensing a feeling limited to this body: I am sensing a feeling limited to this very body. When sensing a feeling limited to life, he knows that: I am sensing a feeling limited to life. He knows that: With the break-up of this fragile frame body, after the termination of life, all sensed, not being clung to, will grow cold and cease right there... Here the monk, thus cooled, is endowed with the highest wisdom as an unshakable foundation. This verily is the highest & most sacred truth, to know how all Suffering will vanish. What can mislead, can be mistaken, all that is untrue! Only the infallible Nibbana is true... Source Text (extract): Majjhima Nikaya 140: Analysis of Elements: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #71025 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 am Subject: Nina's little book on the Perfections nilovg Hi Howard, -------- H: LOLOL! It seems many doctors are like that in all parts of the world!! Well, I hope the doctor's technical expertise outweighs his miserable "bedside manner". -------------------------------- N: Is it not Rita's work to help patients in such matters? But surprise, he was most kind. The results were very good (130 % compared to people my age), and he said: write more books, walk on, and he hoped not to see me again. Smiles, smiles from both sides. And your story? You wanted to have tests yesterday. You seem in good spirits, but also the Dhamma is a medicin, the best one. -------- In the > > ultimate sense there is hearing, seeing, thinking. As Kh Sujin said: > they are just dhammas. Such a saying is full of meaning. We cannot do > anything about dhammas that appear and we never know what appears the > next moment. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Oh, sure we can, Nina - about dhammas not yet arisen, and we do so all the time; but I'll leave that for a discussion some other time! ;-)) ------- N: Very good point, inspiring. Nina. #71026 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:41 am Subject: Re: Virtue avalo1968 Hello Ken H, Thank you for your reply. Ken H: If you asked that question in a non-Buddhist discussion group you would be told more or less the same things, wouldn't you? Robert A. I have always thought that the Buddhist teachings of training the mind and the place that virtue plays in that training to be unique. Ken H: Therefore, we need to be more specific. What, exactly, is meant by 'the practice of virtue?' For example, there is often the subtle clinging, "This is my virtue." Is virtue being practised at such times? And what about the subtle conceit, "I am the one who is being virtuous?" Possibly, some discussion groups would tell you those things don't matter, while others might agree with the Buddhist position that there can be no virtue when there is clinging or conceit. But what about wrong view? How many groups would have the faintest idea of what you were talking about if you told them, 'Virtue is not self?' Robert A: What is meant by the 'practice of virtue' is to learn what are the teachings of the Buddha on Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Livelihood, and undertaking to follow those teachings to the extent that one can. It is both a discipline and an aspiration. The ability to be successful in this practice is strengthened as the other aspects of the Eightfold Path are cultivated. So, if I have the intention of renunciation, lovingkindness, and compassion, my speech will more likely have the characteristics of Right Speech. There might be subtle clinging to virtue itself, or thoughts of myself as a virtuous person, but there might also be some improvement in my conduct and my state of mind as a result of my effort to pracice virtue, improvements that move me further along in the training that ultimately brings wisdom. Ken H: Yes, calm is kusala and agitation is akusala. How can we know when one exists and the other does not? Remember, the pleasant and equanimous feelings that accompany [akusala] attachment can give a distinct, but false, impression of [kusala] calm. The answer is not to have more concentration. The answer is to have more understanding. Right concentration will follow automatically. Robert A: Are we talking a chicken and egg thing here? - whether understanding leads to concentration or concentration leads to understanding. I believe both are true. On a link which I believe was provided to me by Howard I read the following: 'Do we think calmness is good, better than agitation? They are both merely conditioned phenomena, they pass away instantly.' At the time I read this I thought that, regardless of being both conditioned phenomena, they were different and with different impact on our ability to train our minds. Now I understand a little better with your explanation that the calm I am experiencing might have elements of akusala because of clinging to that calm. I suspect that for a long time, when I practice, there will be subtle aspects of clinging in many things I do, but that does not make the practices worthless. My experience of this practice over the years is that there are benefits to my very imperfect efforts following these teachings - benefits as I said in my original posting - causing less harm to myself and others, and more peace and happiness in life. You are quite right to point out the danger of clinging in any specific practice we might undertake, such as generousity, but that is not an argument for not being generous is it? I think you are saying that is an argument for being generous with as much mindfulness as you can and that is certainly true. Right Mindfulness is always an important part of the Path. Thank you for your help with this question. Robert A. #71027 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:56 am Subject: Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) wisdomcompas... hi howard thanks for ur really. i agree with u totally in all the three argumnents u have put forth, particularly the last one. infact i had similar doubts which made me to look at sutta. and i m glad that i did so. after attending two courses i felt that buddha's teaching must not be limited to observing body's sensation and remaining equanimous. what about mind? and then buddha says in first and second verse of dhammapada "mind is the chief..................". so i think that its a technique of mediation but not full teachings of buddha. but undoubtedly for a layman vipassana retreat experience is unforgettable. i wish it was properly related with chitta and mental constituents and body. --------------------------------------------------------------------- #71028 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Falling in Love? sarahprocter... Hi James (Alan* & all), Thx for your interest and polite questions at the end. --- buddhatrue wrote: Alan W: >.....Its called Attachment to > > Another Person and was written by Sarah Abbott 28 years ago! It can .... J:> Very nice article. I was surprised that I agreed with everything > presented in it! ;-)) ... S: Uh oh:-) I just tried to take a look, but couldn't open it for some reason.... ... J:> I think it is very important for everyone to > read to better understand one's attachements to others. .... S: I'd also like to relate these comments to your important discussion with others over 'Think not lightly of evil' in the Dhp you quoted, considering our mind to be 'an open sore' as Phil said and KS's comments about not hating akusala etc. No one has ever pointed out the danger of attachment and all kinds of akusala to me as she has done. This, however, is quite different from taking it for being one's own and being disturbed by it, wishing it otherwise or hating it. That was the point of the comments you referred to. Indeed, it is only with understanding and detachment (or equanimity as Scott stressed) that akusala and evil of all kinds will truly be seen for what it is. Minding about it, clinging to oneself and one's character never sees it with detachment. .... J:>I also like > how it states that we are all at different levels of understanding > when it comes to attachment to another person, and that a new or > higher understanding can't be forced. .... S: This is so true. It is for this reason that it's not a question of adopting a different lifestyle to the present one, but a question of understanding and being honest with our inclinations as they really are at this moment, whilst following our various pursuits, interests and attachments. .... J:> I was curious, however, about the fact that this was written 28 years > ago. In the article, KS gives advice to Sarah not to get married, .... S: I haven't checked the article as I said. I don't recall KS ever advising me to do or not do anything in particular except to develop awareness and understand present realities whilst seeing the danger of attachment - the cause of all suffering. This advice includes the acceptance and understanding of strong and subtle attachments. If we think attachment is harmless, as you and Phil have stressed, this is contrary to the Buddha's teachings. Yet, we start where we are, to borrow Howard's expression. .... J:> and Jon is quoted in the article, but as we know Sarah got married to > Jon anyway. Perhaps Sarah, in retrospect, would like to comment on > this? (if it's not too personal). .... S: I forget again how Jon is quoted in the article. Actually, we blame/thank(!) KS for our getting married, but that's another long story for off-list one day. Attachment to another person or other people brings grief and sorrow. No doubt about it. Does this mean we should or can avoid it? Impossible. Appreciating the harm of attachment and the great value of kindness, compassion and so on is so very valuable as I see it. Knowing that what we are really attached to is based on merely elements of visible object, sound and so on and that in truth there are no beings helps a lot, I find. What is it that we care so much about if not our own pleasant feelings? My, my, my....all the time as Nina re-quoted. It's really essential that understanding develops and knows more an more precisely what is attachment and what is metta and what the reality really is when we think about 'my friend', 'my husband', 'my son' or 'my whatever'. Metta, Sarah *Alan - great to see you in Sussex....look forward to any extracts from audio or readings you find helpful.... ======== #71029 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: eCard from Morocco 2a sarahprocter... Hi James, (Surfer James & all), I enjoyed your comments below: --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Surfer James wondered > > whether being Buddhist meant less enjoyment and he had in fact been > on a > > Buddhist(?) retreat some time back – vegie food, no coffee, > breathing > > meditation..... >>it's useless to > think > > about another situation, such as the retreat, as being more > conducive to > > knowing realities.... ... Meditator James:> "Surfer James" LOL! I really have to smile at the irony of that > one! I have never been surfing in the ocean, I wonder if surfing the > internet counts?? ;-)) .... S: 'Surfer James' is another colourful character (face-to-face anyway). He's not a Buddhist, but enjoyed our brief chats and has asked if he can raise some questions here, so you may get to meet him too! I just gave him a couple of links to posts where his name comes up, including yours! ... J:>Anyway, you might also like to point out to > surfer James that surfing is very much like sitting meditation (as > you did in a round-about-KS-way ;-)): .... S: Glad you approved, even if it was in 'a round-about-KS-way';-)) ... J:> http://www.beliefnet.com/story/198/story_19802_1.html > > "After years of hanging out with a lot of Buddhists, a lot of > surfers, and some Buddhist surfers, I've realized that many > meditators are interested in surfing, and vice versa. There's an > intuitive connection between the two activities. For many of you this > connection will seem a little too hippy-dippy-1970's to take > seriously. ... ;-)) You'd probably point to my lack of surfing expertise as confirming a lack of meditator expertise too, lol! Wouldn't that be good logical reasoning? Anyway, yes, I feel somewhat hippy-dippy about the connection, but am happy to be meditating (in the old-fashioned dictionary definition-sense you stressed before) on or off the surf-board. (A lot of time being thrown off as Surfer James could attest to, lol...) ... J:>Nevertheless, it's my experience. I am a Buddhist surfer. > And in a world where Buddhist teachings can be pricey and genuine > masters as hard to find as cheap sushi, I have let the ocean be my > greatest teacher. " .... S: Well, perhaps that's why so many surfers warm to our Buddhist interest - all those hours of ocean-gazing clocked up:-) Thx James. Perhaps you should take it up - some nice surf beaches in Taiwan, our friends tell us..... I've been enjoying your various non-surfing discussions too.... Metta, Sarah ======== #71030 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] homosexuality and jhana egberdina Hi Benji, On 20/04/07, benji_941 wrote: > > hi, > > i think there are some experts on meditation here, so I hope I can get > an answer to a question I have. > > I have been told that homosexuals cannot attain jhana( i think it is > said in the Visuddhimagga ). is this true? Have there been any gay > people who had jhana? > There is no sexuality or gender or race or colour or creed in Jhanas. Men, women and children of any persuasion whatsoever, whether that be Republican, Thai, lesbian, short, male, pretty, gay cannot enter Jhana. There can only be Jhana with the cessation of discursive thinking. And let's face it, much thinking is along the lines of I am this, I am that, I am not this, or that. There is bliss, however. And it is not you :-) Herman #71031 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:42 am Subject: Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) kenhowardau Hi James, Prepare for another stoush! I should make clear, BTW, that I don't take these scraps too seriously. If philosophical disagreements with Buddhist meditators are my biggest problem in life then I've got a pretty easy life. :-) ------------ <. . .> James: ;-)) What is wrong with you? Have you lost your marbles or something? You keep making veiled accusations about me but never provide any specifics. ------------ My previous tactic was to ask, "Are you just pretending to not understand (in order to win a debate)?" That didn't go down well. And, to tell the truth, I am beginning to have second thoughts. See a bit further down: --------------- JL > What is it about me that irritates you so much? Actually, you don't need to answer that….I don't care. ---------------- I don't need to answer because it is obvious. You misrepresent other people's points of view. It is irritating to have to continually go back and say, "No, that is not what I meant!" Take this current instance: Has anyone here ever said, "I have proved from my own experience that meditation does not work?" No, they haven't. That is not the way the non-meditators see the matter. They base their opinions on their understanding of the Dhamma, not on their personal experiences. This is where I am having second thoughts. Maybe it really does seem to you that people are making those claims. Because you can't understand the point about hearing and considering the Dhamma (instead of having meditation experiences) you genuinely can't see that other people are basing their opinions on what they have heard and considered. (?) --------------------------- <. . .> J: > This is a complete generalization and hogwash. There are many people who study the Abhidhamma and also practice meditation. Your peculiar outlook comes from the teachings of KS, not the Abhidhamma. That is why you will see that I don't challenge the Abhidhamma that often; I challenge the teachings of KS most frequently (perhaps that is what bugs you the most??). ----------------------------- I would like to see some rational challenges instead of emotional ones. Please specify a point on which you think KS contradicts the Abhidhamma. ----------------------------------------- J: > There are many people who study the Abhidhamma, are experts in Abhidhamma, and practice meditation. Do you (again) think I am lying?? Would you like me to provide you some links to their writings?? (I won't make the effort unless I know you will read them.) ------------------------------------------ No thanks. I would rather discuss your claims about KS and the Abhidhamma. Ken H #71032 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anatta sarahprocter... Hi Claudia (Cultry?),TG & all, You started a good thread on anatta and there were many responses. I'd be interested to hear any of your further thoughts or comments on any of them. You also agreed with Herman when you wrote: --- cultry1 wrote: > I agree with you. Most differently from all religions in the west > in Buddhism, I believe, we do not have a soul, we do not have a self, > we do not have a personality called Claudia, that one day will die, > and finish. I believe the cosmic energy that made that character to > live will continue in the Cosmos, purely as energy, perhaps in another > person, I don't know. .... S: This comment about energy reminded me of some of our discussions whilst we were away and also some of TG's comments before. How do you (or TG) think this energy manifests or is experienced? I hope you're able to find discussions here of interest - pls start your own topics anytime and chip in whenever you have an interest. May I ask where you live (if you haven't told us already)? Metta, Sarah ======== #71033 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] a question sarahprocter... Dear Robert A, Good to read your questions and discussion threads too. I think you mentioned in passing that you live in Kansas? Anyway, welcome to DSG. I think this was your first post and question: --- Robert wrote: > Is this statement correct? > > A person suffering from frustration or anger in this moment does so > because conditions were created in the past for that frustration or > anger to arise. To prevent the arising of frustration or anger in the > future he/she must cease to create the conditions for its arising. ... S: Others have already given good answers. Of course, the main condition is attachment. Everyone would like to have less frustration or anger, but few see the attachment as being the real problem. Attachment for what? Attachment for what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted, touched and conceived about these.... I'm sure you've already written your further reflections on this topic which I'll get to in due course. Metta, Sarah ========== #71034 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:59 am Subject: Re: what is sati, to Niddhi wisdomcompas... hi nina thanks for ur reply. surely my articulation, choice of words and intellectual understanding needs improvement. well,i would say ultimate reality is nothingness, or dukkha, or not self,or impermanence etc. but for me it is not so. my reality is dukkha, i feel permanence, and self ,desire, ego as well. so i begin with what i m and would rather take buddha's guidance for doing it. thinking about all these didnt free me from clinging. i tried not to cling as well,not to have any desire as well, but that also didnt work. so i m rather interested in knowing what exactly happens inside me. so for me actually impermanence, enlightenment, non self are concepts. and experimenting as per satipatthana is reality. if anyone else is aware of any other method/way so that this conditioning/clinging can be 'completely' eradicated, please let me know. i m very much interested in that. i dont experiment with leg but start with something as per satipatthana and take it forward again as per satipatthana. so far it was good for me. so i thought of sharing with other people as well. ********************************************************************* #71035 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? egberdina Hi RobertK, On 24/04/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > > The worst kamma is wrong view that denies kamma and rebirth, and > sadly those who hold such views are almost certain to descend to one > of the hells after death. Thus we should try to help the foolish > come out of their wrong ideas, it is the greatest kindebess anyone > can do for another. > Robert > I appreciate your intentions. You may misunderstand me, though. I do not deny cause and effect, it's just that I have no time for dressed-up Hindu cosmology, or the means that may be used to make me live in the open sewers it spawns. If you believe that I am foolish and that you are not, could I suggest that you would show greater kindness by tailoring your well-intentioned message to my foolish level of understanding, so that I may accept it. Go on, appeal to my reason. Herman #71036 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is enlightenment wisdomcompas... hi sarah thanks for ur post. i stay in india. and i was interested in dhamma for a long period, but didnt know from where to start, attending a vipassana course gave me direction, (i would say). regarding ur post, i doubt it constitues only wisdom. there would be something other that happens to mind. or may be mind doesnt exist in that state. but frankly speaking i dont know what is it. ********************************************************************* #71037 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Atta views: suffering and/or happiness sarahprocter... Dear Antony, Always good to see your quotes, comments and questions as here in #70659, quoting the Brahmajala Sutta with good additional points. --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear Group, > > I decided to research the Brahmajala Sutta the other day, mainly for > inspiration of the intelligence of the Buddha. I found this unexpected > insight: > > Sixteen Kinds of Belief in the Existence of Sanna after Death > (Uddhamaghatanika Sanna Vada) <...> > or that: (15) atta has both happiness and suffering; > (This view is held by a person who sees beings in the human world > experiencing both happiness and suffering.) .... S: As you say, this view is held by those who see 'the self' as being happy and miserable (as opposed to just happy or just sad in certain realms. The wrong view is in the idea of these mental states as belonging to a person. ... > Last night I remembered #15 watching TV on Iraq whilst my Mom happily > prepared dinner. > > So the Noble Truth of dukkha is not that atta will always suffer. What > a relief. .... S: The Noble Truth of dukkha refers to the impermanence of all conditioned dhammas. What is impermanent (including happy feeling) is unsatisfactory and thereby dukkha. The Truth is not that atta will either always suffer, never suffer or sometimes suffer. As is often quoted here from the Vism: "Mere suffering exists: no sufferer is found." There never was, is or will be an atta to suffer. > What is the best translation of atta in this sutta? .... S: A good question! My first choice would be for it not to be translated. It's usually translated as 'self' which of course is fine in some of the contexts as the above example. However, in other examples, I'm not so sure it fits. For example, when we take the computer for being a 'thing' rather than visible object, hardness and so on that is experienced, there is atta-belief - no understanding of dhammas as anatta - but 'self-view' is mis-leading here, I think. How about you? I'd like to discuss this topic further with you. As always, you raise deep points, Antony. Metta, Sarah ======= #71038 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:03 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: J: "You need some more practice in debate. :-)" Scott: I know! I'm the fuzziest thinker I've ever met. I keep begging Herman for lessons - and keep waiting. Be sure to join in when class starts. J: "I'm glad that you read the web site I linked." Scott: Try this one, as well. http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/index.htm Scott: Not Dhamma, but maybe we can raise the bar in discussions somehow. See what you think... J: "However, your logic really breaks down at this point...." Scott: See above. Fuzzy thinker. J: "If those who claim to be converted meditators can prove that they were experts in meditation, then their claims carry some weight; if they cannot prove that they were experts in meditation, then their claims don't carry any weight." Scott: What would constitute proof, I wonder? This is where I see this all as silly. What is the Dhamma in all this? I think it would be rude to demand of you to prove in what way you are expert enough in 'meditation' to be able to recommend it. Try this, for example, and I think you'll agree that, in this forum, there is no way to prove these things: Visuddhimagga I,1: "'When a wise man, established well in virtue, Develops consciousness and understanding, Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious He succeeds in disentangling this tangle.' (S.i,13) "This was said. But why was it said? While the Blessed One was living at Saavatthi, it seems, a certain deity came to him in the night, and in order to do away with doubts, he asked this question: 'The inner tangle and the outer tangle - This generation is entangled in a tangle. And so I ask of Gotama this question: Who succeeds in disentangling this tangle?' (S.i,13) III,1: "Now concentration is described under the heading of 'consciousness' in the phrase 'develops consciousness and understanding' [above]. It should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that has been purified by means of the special qualities of fewness of wishes, etc., and perfected by observance of the ascetic practises. But that concentration has been shown only very briefly and so it is not even easy to understand, much less to develop. There is therefore the following the following set of questions, the purpose of which is to show the method of its development in detail: (i) What is concentration? (ii) In what sense is it concentration? (iii) What are its characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause? (iv) How many kinds of concentration are there? (v What is its defilement? (vi) What is its cleansing? (vii) How should it be developed? (viii) What are the benefits of the development of concentration?" Scott: I sincerely doubt that you, James, or any 'meditator' here, could answer these questions adequately. Don't try, this is a rhetorical argument. And this is no fault either. I've read Buddhaghosa's answers. Even memorising them would not qualify you or me. I stop at the very beginning: 'When a wise man, established well in virtue...' Scott: This is not me in any way. I can say this of me; I can't say this of you. Can you? (Rhetorical question). And just in case my conceit were to rise again, there is: '...It should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that has been purified by means of the special qualities of fewness of wishes, etc., and perfected by observance of the ascetic practises...' Scott: Again, not me in any way. I think it is conceit to then think that, without pre-requisites, I can expect to gain 'concentration'. I'm not convinced by 'meditators' here. And I've been assailed by 'meditators' since the moment I showed up here, as 'meditators' assail all new arrivals. I didn't come here for that. I don't consider that 'concentration' is understood by 'meditators' here at all. And you can see, given that I'm even arguing this point, that I lack in virtue enough to have plenty to work on. I should really be ignoring all this. I'll leave 'concentration' for another time. You may have the floor... Sincerely, Scott. #71039 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for the reply: H: "No, the texts are the texts. In themselves they are devoid of meaning. In studying the texts you will only find out about yourself, not some absolute reality..." Scott: What do you mean when you say things like this? This sounds clever but your point seems never quite to be made. More existentialism? Can you clarify this? If you are arguing from the existentialist point of view, please at least say so and be more clear about it. And tell me what is unclear in what I reply to you, and in what way. I'd appreciate it. To me, the above seems only to be argumentative, not much of an argument, if you know what I mean. I'm discussing Dhamma and you keep discussing dhammaa. For example, this exchange from last time: [Me: "Doesn't this amount to saying that the Dhamma is not knowable, due to the ambiguous condition of the texts, *and* that the Dhamma is knowable by application to these same ambiguous texts, which one can then investigate and confirm?" You: "What it says is that dhammas are not found in books, and that a student of texts is not a student of dhammas."] Scott: I find the reasoning specious. There is a difference between Dhamma and dhammaa. Sincerely, Scott. #71040 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/24/07 2:03:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > The worst kamma is wrong view that denies kamma and rebirth, and > sadly those who hold such views are almost certain to descend to one > of the hells after death. ========================== Worse than the kamma of a torturer-murderer of infants who believes in rebirth and that s/he will suffer consequences, yet engages in such monstrous behavior anyway because it simply "feels so good" and delights him/her so much? And what of a materalist-atheist-annihilationist whose heart aches for those who suffer, who selflessly finds joy in the happiness of his/her fellow creatures, and who lives a lifetime of genuininely compassionate service? Does s/he go to hell, Robert? What, for example, of the Righteous Gentiles during the 1940's who risked their own lives to hide Jews from the Nazis. Are those of them who believed we live but one life now in hell? What of those who believed that kammic consequence is a fiction, and that good deeds may do nothing at all good for the doer, yet, out of love for others acted to save them anyway? In hell also? I also have another question: What is the basis for your belief in all these so very *precise* details of kammic consequence and hell destinations? It isn't based on "this moment" surely, and it doesn't seem presently verifiable or refutable. Doesn't it seem to you that it makes sense to have at least a modicum of tentativeness in accepting what is not testable? Is there no room for holding assent in check and simply thinking "perhaps so, but maybe not" when we really don't know? It seems to me that "ehipassiko" is a good approach to the Dhamma, and for what one cannot "come and see", hold it in abeyance. With metta, Howard #71041 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina's little book on the Perfections upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/24/07 4:59:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > -------- > H: LOLOL! It seems many doctors are like that in all parts of the > world!! > Well, I hope the doctor's technical expertise outweighs his miserable > "bedside manner". > -------------------------------- > N: Is it not Rita's work to help patients in such matters? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, in part she is an ombudsman. :-) ----------------------------------------- > But surprise, he was most kind. The results were very good (130 % > compared to people my age), and he said: write more books, walk on, > and he hoped not to see me again. Smiles, smiles from both sides. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Ah! How wonderful!!! Congratulations! :-) May you have many more healthy, productive, and joyful years ahead. BTW, some doctors, we've found, can be very pleasant when they have good news to report, but, when the news is not so good, they can be cold and remote, thinking that this represents a failure by them. (Ego!!) OTOH, perhaps he's just really a good person! :-) --------------------------------------------- > And your story? You wanted to have tests yesterday. You seem in good > spirits, but also the Dhamma is a medicin, the best one. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. I'm somewhat improved, so I'm holding off on seeing the doctor. I *had* called him a number of days ago, and I've been taking Singulaire that he prescribed for the allergic-asthmatic aspects. The improvement is slight & gradual but definite. I'm *supposed* to be a very active participant this coming Friday evening in the Men's Club service at our reform Jewish temple, chanting much of the liturgy and joining in duets and triplets on a few secular songs such as "Blowing in the Wind". No one is set to be singing more than me. However, at the moment my voice reminds me more of a squawking parrot than a singer - so I may have to bow out. ------------------------------------------- > -------- > > In the > > >ultimate sense there is hearing, seeing, thinking. As Kh Sujin said: > >they are just dhammas. Such a saying is full of meaning. We cannot do > >anything about dhammas that appear and we never know what appears the > >next moment. > > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > Oh, sure we can, Nina - about dhammas not yet arisen, and we do so all > the time; but I'll leave that for a discussion some other time! ;-)) > ------- > N: Very good point, inspiring. > Nina. > ======================== Again, congratulations on the good medical report - to both of you. I'm sure Lodewijk is greatly relieved! :-) With metta, Howard #71042 From: "nidive" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:27 am Subject: Interesting Article on Quantum Physics nidive Hi All, I found an interesting article on quantum physics where some physicists come to the 'uneasy consequence' that "reality does not exist when we are not observing it". http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/11/4/14 Personally, I relate this discovery to what the Buddha said: ------------------------------------------------------------------- 'Name-&-form exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there name-&-form?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form exists when consciousness exists. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.' "Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death ... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html ------------------------------------------------------------------- What are your thoughts? Swee Boon #71043 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Virtue upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/24/07 5:47:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, avalo1968@... writes: > On a link which I believe was provided to me by Howard I read the > following: > > 'Do we think calmness is good, better than agitation? They are both > merely conditioned phenomena, they pass away instantly.' > ===================== While, of course, it is possible that I sent you the link, I think probably not. With metta, Howard #71044 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Interesting Article on Quantum Physics upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon - Good to hear from you! It's been a while. :-) In a message dated 4/24/07 9:29:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi All, > > I found an interesting article on quantum physics where some > physicists come to the 'uneasy consequence' that "reality does not > exist when we are not observing it". > > http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/11/4/14 > > Personally, I relate this discovery to what the Buddha said: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > 'Name-&-form exists when what exists? From what as a requisite > condition is there name-&-form?' From my appropriate attention there > came the breakthrough of discernment: 'Name-&-form exists when > consciousness exists. From consciousness as a requisite condition > comes name-&-form.' Then the thought occurred to me, 'Consciousness > exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes > consciousness?' From my appropriate attention there came the > breakthrough of discernment: 'Consciousness exists when name-&-form > exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes > consciousness.' > > "Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at > name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is > birth, aging, death ... > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.065.than.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > What are your thoughts? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Well, of course I like it a lot, as it fits right in with my phenomenalist perspective. :-) ---------------------------------------- > > Swee Boon ====================== With metta, Howard #71045 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:06 am Subject: Re: Self and Other (Re: [dsg] what is sati nilovg Hi Howard, What you say is similar to what Kh Sujin said: if there were no citta, cetasika and rupa there would not be persons. I had to think about this, but now it has more meaning for me. As to, there is no person, I read to Lodewijk a passage from the Netti, the Guide (p. 96). The Thai translation I have is clearer. It has instead of 'there is the Perfected One', 'there is a being (satta)'. It explains that someone who is an arahat does not have any eternity belief nor annihilation belief with regard to the exsitence of a person. Nina. Op 23-apr-2007, om 22:49 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I would even be comfortable with > a stronger one that would say that not only is there no *lasting* > person > "Lodewijk" or "Nina" or "Howard", but only a conventional person, > or, more > precisely, that there is only the convention of persons. It does no > harm to say this > at all, so long as it is also understood that the basis for the > convention of > a person really exists, namely the underlying flow of interconnected > experiential phenomena (dhammas). #71046 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] a question avalo1968 Dear Sarah, Thank you for your reply and welcome to the group. I am enjoying reading here. It has been interesting. Regards, Robert A. #71047 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue nilovg Dear TG, you said it in one sentence! This we find in the Visuddhimagga which speaks of all degrees of siila, virtue, and even includes samatha, vipassana up to the magga-citta in siila. When defilements are eradicated, this is the highest virtue. Nina. Op 24-apr-2007, om 2:02 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > Insight is perhaps the greatest virtue. #71048 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Virtue avalo1968 Hello Howard, You are right. It was Robert. I am sorry for the mix up. Here is the link to which I referred: http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=29 Regards, Robert A. > While, of course, it is possible that I sent you the link, I think > probably not. #71049 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) nilovg Dear Scott, Every time I see this text I am impressed. Siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa all go together. I am glad about the text further on you quoted. The composition of this book is admirable. It is for teaching purposes that the Visuddhimagga treated siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa separately. At the conclusion he quotes again this sutta verse. Just some thoughts. Nina. Op 24-apr-2007, om 14:03 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Visuddhimagga I,1: > > "'When a wise man, established well in virtue, > Develops consciousness and understanding, > Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious > He succeeds in disentangling this tangle.' (S.i,13) #71050 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:38 am Subject: Re: Self and Other (Re: [dsg] what is sati upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - I suspect that 75% of disagreements on DSG are only formulational. :-) That remaining 25%, however, is quite an obstacle! LOLOL! With metta, Howard #71051 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Dear Nina and TG, Yes, when the defilements are eradicated, this is the highest virtue. On this I can certainly agree and I thank you for your replies. But they raise the question - what do I do in the meantime? While reading here, I have sometimes seen conversations that lead me to believe the emphasis for some is on the being aware of dhammas arising and passing away to the exclusion of all other practices. Perhaps this is a misreading. I have never questioned the value of seeing things arise and pass away, but have always felt I needed certain practices to make it possible for me to do that - I needed a training, and the practice of virtue was an important part of that training. It was to ask the opinion of the other members of this group on this question that I began this thread. Thank you for your patient responses, Robert A. > > Insight is perhaps the greatest virtue. #71052 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:05 am Subject: Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James, > > Prepare for another stoush! James: I had to look that word up. It is Australian slang for "a fight or brawl". Ken H., that's not the right attitude! If you want to have a healthy debate, that's great; but I don't wish to have a fight or brawl with you. I have better things to do with my time. I should make clear, BTW, that I don't > take these scraps too seriously. If philosophical disagreements with > Buddhist meditators are my biggest problem in life then I've got a > pretty easy life. :-) > > ------------ > <. . .> > James: ;-)) What is wrong with you? Have you lost your marbles or > something? You keep making veiled accusations about me but never > provide any specifics. > ------------ > > My previous tactic was to ask, "Are you just pretending to not > understand (in order to win a debate)?" That didn't go down well. James: It didn't go down well because you didn't ask me that question, you accused me of lying (in the third person) in order to win debate points. If you want to talk trash about me, at least have the decency to do it off-list! LOL! > And, to tell the truth, I am beginning to have second thoughts. See a > bit further down: > > --------------- > JL > What is it about me that irritates you so much? Actually, you > don't need to answer that….I don't care. > ---------------- > > I don't need to answer because it is obvious. You misrepresent other > people's points of view. It is irritating to have to continually go > back and say, "No, that is not what I meant!" James: I don't recall one single instance of this happening. As I see it, you get continually irritated with me because I choose to view the Dhamma in a conventional manner while you chose to view the Dhamma as the single, present moment. You may think I misrepresent you, but I don't think I do. Because of your position, you in essence deny the importance of: impermanence, karma, re-birth, dependent-origination, dukkha, Sangha, Buddha, etc., etc., etc. The list goes on and on. You can't have your cake and eat it too- if there is only the present moment then there is only the present moment! > > Take this current instance: Has anyone here ever said, "I have proved > from my own experience that meditation does not work?" James: Did you not read what I posted or what? You don't have to say that! You imply it everytime you mention that "Oh, I used to meditate but I gave that up when I ran across the teachings of KS." That is a Statement of Conversion. You can't say I misrepresent you simply because I point out something which you don't want to admit. You can disagree, sure. But you cannot say that I purposefully put words in your mouth in order to win a debate. I am just pointing something out to you that you may not be aware of. / No, they > haven't. That is not the way the non-meditators see the matter. They > base their opinions on their understanding of the Dhamma, not on > their personal experiences. > > This is where I am having second thoughts. Maybe it really does seem > to you that people are making those claims. Because you can't > understand the point about hearing and considering the Dhamma > (instead of having meditation experiences) you genuinely can't see > that other people are basing their opinions on what they have heard > and considered. (?) James: I was simply pointing out a fallacious argument. Of course I don't see the Dhamma the same way that you do. From what I am reading, even those in the KS camp don't see the Dhamma the same way you do. You are really way out there! ;-)) > > --------------------------- > <. . .> > J: > This is a complete generalization and hogwash. There are many > people who study the Abhidhamma and also practice meditation. Your > peculiar outlook comes from the teachings of KS, not the Abhidhamma. > That is why you will see that I don't challenge the Abhidhamma that > often; I challenge the teachings of KS most frequently (perhaps that > is what bugs you the most??). > ----------------------------- > > I would like to see some rational challenges instead of emotional > ones. Please specify a point on which you think KS contradicts the > Abhidhamma. James: Where did I write that KS contradicts the Abhidhamma?? Now who is putting arguments in other's mouths?? ;-)) The Abhidhamma is just a list of dhammas, that's it. It doesn't put forth any positions or arguments. I haven't said that KS contradicts the Abhidhamma; I have said that she contradicts the words of the Buddha! As far as which points, well the list goes on and on! Currently we have been discussing Right Effort and the defilements taught by KS as opposed to what is taught by the Buddha. Just stay tuned to this channel and I'm sure you will get to read about some more. ;-)) > > ----------------------------------------- > J: > There are many people who study the Abhidhamma, are experts in > Abhidhamma, and practice meditation. Do you (again) think I am > lying?? Would you like me to provide you some links to their > writings?? (I won't make the effort unless I know you will read > them.) > ------------------------------------------ > > No thanks. I would rather discuss your claims about KS and the > Abhidhamma. James: Well, I haven't made any claims about KS and the Abhidhamma. > > Ken H > Metta, James #71053 From: connie Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:11 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (52) nichiconn dear friends, more Khema: "Pacchime ca bhave daani, saakalaaya puruttame; ra~n~no maddassa dhiitaamhi, manaapaa dayitaa piyaa. "Saha me jaatamattamhi, khema.m tamhi pure ahu; tato khemaati naama.m me, gu.nato upapajjatha. "Yadaaha.m yobbana.m pattaa, ruupalaava~n~nabhuusitaa; tadaa adaasi ma.m taato, bimbisaarassa raajino. "Tassaaha.m suppiyaa aasi.m, ruupakelaayane rataa; ruupaana.m dosavaadiiti, na upesi.m mahaadaya.m. "Bimbisaaro tadaa raajaa, mamaanuggahabuddhiyaa; va.n.nayitvaa ve.luvana.m, gaayake gaapayii mama.m. And now in my last existence, I was the pleasing, pleasant, well-loved daughter of King Madda in the magnificent town of Saakalaa. As soon as I was born that city was peaceful; therefore, through the arising of that good quality, I was named Khemaa. When I was a young woman, adorned with beauty, then my father gave me to King Bimbisaara. I was very dear to him; delighing in playfulness and beauty. I did not approach the One of Great Sympathy, thinking, "He speaks of the faults of beauty." Then King Bimbisaara, out of kindness for me, having described Ve.luvana, had singers sing to me: "Ramma.m ve.luvana.m yena, na di.t.tha.m sugataalaya.m; na tena nandana.m di.t.tha.m, iti ma~n~naamase maya.m. "Yena ve.luvana.m di.t.tha.m, naranandananandana.m; sudi.t.tha.m nandana.m tena, amarindasunandana.m. "Vihaaya nandana.m devaa, otaritvaa mahiitala.m; ramma.m ve.luvana.m disvaa, na tappanti suvimhitaa. "Raajapu~n~nena nibbatta.m, buddhapu~n~nena bhuusita.m; ko vattaa tassa nissesa.m, vanassa gu.nasa~ncaya.m. "Ta.m sutvaa vanasamiddha.m, mama sotamanohara.m; da.t.thukaamaa tamuyyaana.m, ra~n~no aarocayi.m tadaa. "We think that whoever has not seen the delightful Ve.luvana, the residence of the Sublime One, has not seen Nandana, "Nandana, which delights the king of the immortal, has been well seen by anyone who has seen Ve.luvana, which greatly delights the people. "When they leave Nandana and descend to the surface of the earth and see Ve.luvana, the devas are very astonished and not pleased. It came into existence through the merit of the king and is adorned by the merit of the Buddha. Who could describe all the great mass of virtues of that wood? When I heard of the perfection of that wood, it ws delightful to my ears. I wanted to see that royal garden, so I told the king. "Mahataa parivaarena, tadaa ca so mahiipati; ma.m pesesi tamuyyaana.m, dassanaaya samussuka.m. "Gaccha passa mahaabhoge, vana.m nettarasaayana.m; ya.m sadaa bhaati siriyaa, sugataabhaanura~njita.m. "Yadaa ca pi.n.daaya muni, giribbajapuruttama.m; pavi.t.thoha.m tadaayeva, vana.m da.t.thumupaagami.m. "Tadaa ta.m phullavipina.m, naanaabhamarakuujita.m; kokilaagiitasahita.m, mayuuraga.nanaccita.m. "Appasaddamanaaki.n.na.m, naanaaca"nkamabhuusita.m; ku.tima.n.dapasa.mki.n.na.m, yogiivaraviraajita.m. "Vicarantii ama~n~nissa.m, saphala.m nayana.m mama; tatthaapi taru.na.m bhikkhu.m, yutta.m disvaa vicintayi.m. And then the king eagerly sent me with a large entourage to see that royal garden: "My dear," [he said,] "go see the wood that is an elixer for the eyes, that always shines with the glory of the Sublime One, that is embellished with his radiance." When the Sage entered the magnificent town of Girbbaga on his alms round, just then I went to see the wood. Then I wandered around that blossoming grove with the buzz of different sorts of bees, with the song of the cuckoo and the dancing of a multitude of peacocks. It was free from noise, not crowded, adorned with various places for walking up and down, with huts and canopies scattered around, and resplendent with the Best of Sages. I thought my eyes were being rewarded, seeing there a young bhikkhu who was intent on investigation. == to be continued, connie #71054 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue TGrand458@... Hi Robert A. In a message dated 4/24/2007 8:53:21 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, avalo1968@... writes: Dear Nina and TG, Yes, when the defilements are eradicated, this is the highest virtue. On this I can certainly agree and I thank you for your replies. But they raise the question - what do I do in the meantime? While reading here, I have sometimes seen conversations that lead me to believe the emphasis for some is on the being aware of dhammas arising and passing away to the exclusion of all other practices. Perhaps this is a misreading. I have never questioned the value of seeing things arise and pass away, but have always felt I needed certain practices to make it possible for me to do that - I needed a training, and the practice of virtue was an important part of that training. It was to ask the opinion of the other members of this group on this question that I began this thread. Thank you for your patient responses, Robert A. TG: I think its important to integrate and utilize the whole of the Buddha's teachings (as contained in the Suttas). All aspects are important. But different people will probably be inclined to focus a little differently in one area or another. Use what you feel are your strengths to achieve the best results for you. TG #71055 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Interesting Article on Quantum Physics TGrand458@... In a message dated 4/24/2007 7:29:56 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: Hi All, I found an interesting article on quantum physics where some physicists come to the 'uneasy consequence' that "reality does not exist when we are not observing it". _http://physicsweb.http://physichttp://phyht_ (http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/11/4/14) Thanks for the article Swee Boon! I'll read it later today. TG #71056 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue moellerdieter Hi Robert A / All chipping in just to say that I Iiked your response .. your wrote: 'snip But they raise the question - what do I do in the meantime? While reading here, I have sometimes seen conversations that lead me to believe the emphasis for some is on the being aware of dhammas arising and passing away to the exclusion of all other practices. Perhaps this is a misreading.snip ' According to my impression perhaps not to the exclusion but to its negligence . Some messages suggest that 'simply paying attention to the phenomenal flux of one's own empirical experience' is all what is needed for enlightenment. However though an important aspect , it certainly that does not cover all practise of mindfulness , as explained by the Maha Satipatthana Sutta , not to talk about the approach to the whole Path. It is the Path what the Buddha prescribed to cure the sickness suffering and even knowing in detail what describes the whole mass of suffering , the Dependent Origination , and its fine detailed analyses by Abhidhamma and commentaries, the way of cessation means the 8fold Noble Path. I believe it is very useful to remember that the Buddha stressed that in which teaching the 8fold Noble Path can not be found , the Noble Ones are missing. Hence , a clearer relation to the 4 N.T. will help a better understanding for the common benefit, wouldn't you agree? with Metta Dieter #71057 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 TG, Yes, I can agree - each finds their own balance within all of the Buddha's teachings. But I like to discuss with others why they tend to incline one way or another. This always provides an opportunity for me to see where perhaps my own practice has gotten stuck. Thanks, Robert A. #71058 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Dieter, Yes I do agree, and I thank you for your response. Robert A. #71059 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:32 am Subject: Perfections N, no 17 nilovg Dear friends, In Varãnasi we saw many things which were mentioned in the scriptures: the money counter, the sweeper and the dirt collector. Sarah bought "neem", sweet wood, for the monks and this was used also in the Buddha’s time . One chews it and then it can be used as a toothbrush. Bhante Dhammadhara said that life in Varãnasi was just as life in the Buddha’s time: "only realities appearing through the six doors." There was a lot of noise and we were in the midst of throngs of people who were pushing, but still, there were only realities appearing through the six doors. Also in such a situation there can be mindfulness of a nama or rupa. Sati can sometimes arise, but one should not expect to have keen understanding of realities in the beginning. Bhante Dhammadhara said that the hundred and eight beads of the rosary reminded him of the hundred and eight kinds of clinging. Clinging can be classified according as it arises on account of the objects experienced through the six doors. It can arise also with the eternity view that assumes the object to be lasting, or with the annihilation view which assumes that everything is annihilated. In that way there are eighteen kinds of clinging to be discerned. Furthermore these eighteen kinds can arise with regard to one’s own visible object and to external visible object and so on with regard to the other objects. Then thirtysix kinds of clinging are to be discerned. There are thirtysix kinds of clinging of the past, thirtysix kinds of the present and thirtysix kinds of the future. Thus there are hundred and eight kinds of clinging (Vis. XVII, 235). I said that I did not quite understand why the clinging in the future which has not arisen yet is real. The Bhante said: "It is sure to come and it is frightening". Clinging will arise again and again because the conditions for it are already there. We continue to have expectations but clinging can be object of mindfulness. If clinging can be known as "only a reality" which has arisen because of conditions and which falls away immediately, it will be less of an obsession. Through right understanding it can eventually be eradicated. The Bodhisatta cultivated jhána during many lives. Jhãna is a high degree of renunciation, because at the moment of jhana one is free from sense impressions and thus not enslaved to them. However, if satipatthána is not being developed enlightenment cannot be attained and defilements cannot be eradicated. If one has accumulated skill for jhãna it can be developed together with satipatthana so that the realities which appear and also the jhänacitta can be known as not self. If right understanding of the present moment is not developed calm will be the object of clinging. What is the goal of one’s life: to develop calm or to develop right understanding of realities? ****** Nina. #71060 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:20 am Subject: Rupas, Conclusion 3. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Therígåthå” (Psalms of the Sisters) about people in the Buddha’s time who were disturbed by problems and could not find mental stability. When they were taught Abhidhamma they could develop right understanding and even attain enlightenment. While one studies the elements, the sense-doors, the objects, in short, all ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas), the truth that there is no being or self becomes more evident. We read in Canto 57 about Bhikkhuní Vijayå who could not find peace of mind. After she had been taught Abhidhamma she developed right understanding of realities and attained arahatship . We read: Four times, nay five, I sallied from my cell, And roamed afield to find the peace of mind I lacked, and governance of thoughts I could not bring into captivity. Then to a Bhikkhuní I came and asked Full many a question of my doubts. To me she taught Dhamma: the elements, Organ and object in the life of sense, (And then the factors of the Nobler life:) The Ariyan truths, the Faculties, the Powers, The Seven Factors of Enlightenment [5], The Eightfold Path, leading to utmost good. I heard her words, her bidding I obeyed. While passed the first watch of the night there rose Long memories of the bygone line of lives. While passed the second watch, the Heavenly Eye, Purview celestial, I clarified [6]. While passed the last watch of the night, I burst And rent aside the gloom of ignorance. Then, letting joy and blissful ease of mind Suffuse my body, seven days I sat, Ere stretching out cramped limbs I rose again. Was it not rent indeed, that muffling mist? ------------------ footnotes: 5.The Faculties, Powers, Seven Factors of Enlightenment are wholesome qualities that develop together with satipaììhåna so that enlightenment can be attained. Among them are mindfulness, energy, concentration and understanding. 6. The Heavenly Eye is the knowledge of the passing away and rebirth of beings. *********** (the end) Nina. #71061 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Atta views: suffering and/or happiness egberdina Hi Sarah and Antony, On 24/04/07, sarah abbott wrote: > > > For example, when we take the computer for being a 'thing' rather than > visible object, hardness and so on that is experienced, there is > atta-belief - no understanding of dhammas as anatta - but 'self-view' is > mis-leading here, I think. > Taking a computer to be a thing is merely an expectation that what is visible in one way, is tangible in another way, and functional in another way. These specific ways of expecting is what makes this computer a different thing to that cat. Then there is of course thinking about computers or cats. No seeing or touching or expectations involved at all. Just thinking. Just like thinking that seeing occurs in isolation from touching that occurs in isolation from expecting. I wouldn't call any of that atta belief. I don't think that this computer or that cat has a soul, which is what I understand atta to mean. Nice to see you back. Herman #71062 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate egberdina Hi Scott, On 24/04/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > > Dear Herman, > > Thanks for the reply: > > H: "No, the texts are the texts. In themselves they are devoid of > meaning. In studying the texts you will only find out about yourself, > not some absolute reality..." > > Scott: What do you mean when you say things like this? This sounds > clever but your point seems never quite to be made. More > existentialism? If it was existentialist, would that be reason to accept or reject it? Can you clarify this? I mean no more than the meanings of things doesn't inhere in the things themselves. The meanings of things are given by you and me and everybody else, according to our very basic beliefs and aspirations. How we act in the world, or what we understand a book to be saying, is not because the world is insisting on this action, or the book is insisting on that meaning, but they reveal to us our innermost tendencies. Something like bhavanga citta. If you are arguing from the > existentialist point of view, please at least say so and be more clear > about it. It may be existentialist, I don't know, I don't put the position forward because I belong to one school or another, I put it forward because that's how I believe things to be. And tell me what is unclear in what I reply to you, and in > what way. I'd appreciate it. To me, the above seems only to be > argumentative, not much of an argument, if you know what I mean. No, I don't actually know what you mean, sorry. Are you saying that the opposite is true, that in studying a text you arrive at it's objective, absolute meaning? > > I'm discussing Dhamma and you keep discussing dhammaa. For example, > this exchange from last time: > I don't actually accept that Dhamma and dhammaa are different. But I do realise that some equate the tipitaka with Dhamma. I think that is a little scary, because I expect that everyone will have their own interpretation of the tipitaka, and perhaps not everyone will accept that their own reading of the tipitaka is not objective or absolute. > [Me: "Doesn't this amount to saying that the Dhamma is not knowable, > due to the ambiguous condition of the texts, *and* that the Dhamma is > knowable by application to these same ambiguous texts, which one can > then investigate and confirm?" > > You: "What it says is that dhammas are not found in books, and that a > student of texts is not a student of dhammas."] > > Scott: I find the reasoning specious. There is a difference between > Dhamma and dhammaa. > As above, Dhamma and tipitaka are not to be conflated, IMO. And to reiterate, I do not want to dissuade from studying texts. But the intent of studying texts, as in studying dhammas, is not to discover something absolute (because it isn't there). It is to discover the underlying constructing activities that are making it appear that things have this meaning, or that existence. Herman #71063 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) egberdina Hi James, On 25/04/07, buddhatrue wrote: > > > > > Prepare for another stoush! > > James: I had to look that word up. It is Australian slang for "a > fight or brawl". Ken H., that's not the right attitude! If you want > to have a healthy debate, that's great; but I don't wish to have a > fight or brawl with you. I have better things to do with my time. > One of the connotations of stoush, which may not be apparent from a dictionary, is that it is nothing too serious. And I do think that Ken tries to make the point a few times that he does not invest very heavily in everything he says. It's an Australian thing, believe me, I'm much the same. Herman #71064 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > J: "I'm glad that you read the web site I linked." > > Scott: Try this one, as well. > > http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/index.htm > > Scott: Not Dhamma, but maybe we can raise the bar in discussions > somehow. See what you think... James: It seems okay. Rather intense for those who are non- philosophy majors. > > Scott: What would constitute proof, I wonder? This is where I see > this all as silly. What is the Dhamma in all this? James: Well, I suppose that one could prove that they were an expert in meditation in the ways I mentioned: If they were a teacher or recognized by other teachers as being expert. How did the Buddha look for experts before his enlightenment? The same way we all do: those who are recognized by others as being expert. I would also believe that having achieved some if not all of the jhanas would qualify one as an expert in meditation. > > I think it would be rude to demand of you to prove in what way you are > expert enough in 'meditation' to be able to recommend it. James: It would not be rude to ask such a thing. I have only assisted in the teaching of meditation. I have assisted my meditation teacher, Ajahn Somporn, lead several meditation retreats (from 3 days to 10 days) at Wat Promkunaram in Phoenix, Arizona. I translated Dhamma talks and answered questions concerning meditation and Buddhism. So, I am not an expert- I am not a teacher, just an assistant. I have personally found meditation to be of benefit to me... Try this, > for example, and I think you'll agree that, in this forum, there is no > way to prove these things: James: Well, absolute proof may be difficult, but at least some pointing toward expertise would be needed to speak as an authority on any subject- including meditation. > Scott: Again, not me in any way. I think it is conceit to then think > that, without pre-requisites, I can expect to gain 'concentration'. > I'm not convinced by 'meditators' here. And I've been assailed by > 'meditators' since the moment I showed up here, as 'meditators' assail > all new arrivals. I didn't come here for that. James: What did you come here for? Metta, James #71065 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) egberdina Hi Scott (and Swee Boon), On 24/04/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > J: "You need some more practice in debate. :-)" > > Scott: I know! I'm the fuzziest thinker I've ever met. I keep > begging Herman for lessons - and keep waiting. Be sure to join in > when class starts. > Flattery will get you everywhere. But even better would be direct deposits into my bank account :-) > > "Now concentration is described under the heading of 'consciousness' > in the phrase 'develops consciousness and understanding' [above]. It > should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that has > been purified by means of the special qualities of fewness of wishes, > etc., and perfected by observance of the ascetic practises. But that > concentration has been shown only very briefly and so it is not even > easy to understand, much less to develop. There is therefore the > following the following set of questions, the purpose of which is to > show the method of its development in detail: > > (i) What is concentration? > (ii) In what sense is it concentration? > (iii) What are its characteristic, function, manifestation, and > proximate cause? > (iv) How many kinds of concentration are there? > (v What is its defilement? > (vi) What is its cleansing? > (vii) How should it be developed? > (viii) What are the benefits of the development of concentration?" > > Scott: I sincerely doubt that you, James, or any 'meditator' here, > could answer these questions adequately. Don't try, this is a > rhetorical argument. And this is no fault either. I've read > Buddhaghosa's answers. Even memorising them would not qualify you or me. > Personally, I wouldn't even attempt to answer the questions. Not because they are poor questions, but because jhanas are a pleasant abiding. It would be silly to take an interogative attitude when you realise that it is precisely the interrogative attitude that underlies all of the tangles of consciousness. As Swee Boon's linked article points to from a scientific point of view, in the absence of the questions what is? and how is? there is ................... Herman #71066 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anatta TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 4/24/2007 4:58:26 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > I agree with you. Most differently from all religions in the west > in Buddhism, I believe, we do not have a soul, we do not have a self, > we do not have a personality called Claudia, that one day will die, > and finish. I believe the cosmic energy that made that character to > live will continue in the Cosmos, purely as energy, perhaps in another > person, I don't know. .... S: This comment about energy reminded me of some of our discussions whilst we were away and also some of TG's comments before. How do you (or TG) think this energy manifests or is experienced? TG: In my view, energy simply is what is. Whatever manifests is energy. In regard to the Buddha's teaching on suffering, energy manifests as he said in the Twelve Fold Chain, and every other formula that explains conditional relations. Energy is movement/motion and phenomena are moved/changed in accordance to conditions. ("Solid objects" are still moving but the movement is balanced and therefore appears static to us.) For my money, the Four Great Elements provide the key for understanding the principles that underlie/formulate conditionality. (A "surface understanding" of the Four Great Elements will NOT provide this understanding.) Understanding conditionality is key for generating insight into impermanence, affliction, and no-self. And this insight is key in overcoming affliction/dukkha. TG #71067 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:11 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) buddhatrue Hi Herman and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > One of the connotations of stoush, which may not be apparent from a > dictionary, is that it is nothing too serious. Thanks for telling me. I didn't know that. When I read "a fight or brawl" I thought it must be something serious. It is very important to consider the connotation of words because they can change the meaning of statements. The suttas should also be read in this light. Considering the entire sutta rather than just taking one single phrase out, defining that phrase (or word/s) in a narrow way, and thus changing the meaning of the entire sutta. Metta, James #71068 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:29 pm Subject: Re: Atta views: suffering and/or happiness buddhatrue Hi Herman, I also agree with you that recognizing "things" in the world is not atta-belief. If an arahant saw a computer as only a collection of colors, hardness, etc. (dhammas), then the arahant wouldn't be able to use a computer. (Hey, maybe that's why there are no arahants in this group?? ;-)) Furthermore, an arahant wouldn't be able to function in the world at all. He/she wouldn't be able to open a door, put on clothes, talk, eat, etc. The experience of an arahant would be nothing but a huge kaleidoscope of colors and textures! Sounds more like a drug trip than enlightenment! The arahant would still see a computer as a thing; as a computer. The difference is that the arahant wouldn't have any clinging to the computer. The second Noble Truth is that suffering is caused by clinging, not that suffering is caused by concepts. Metta, James #71069 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 4/24/07 2:03:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... > writes: > > > The worst kamma is wrong view that denies kamma and rebirth, and > > sadly those who hold such views are almost certain to descend to one > > of the hells after death. > ========================== > Worse than the kamma of a torturer-murderer of infants who believes in > rebirth and that s/he will suffer consequences, yet engages in such monstrous > behavior anyway because it simply "feels so good" and delights him/her so > much? Dear Howard, If someone belives in kamma and rebirth how could they be a torturer- murderer of infants. At the least knowing they are soon destined for the prolonged tortures of hell must spoil their fun.. > And what of a materalist-atheist-annihilationist whose heart aches for > those who suffer, who selflessly finds joy in the happiness of his/her fellow > creatures, and who lives a lifetime of genuininely compassionate service? > Does s/he go to hell, Robert? _______________ I said 'almost'. It is not an absolute certainty they will go to hell unless the view is one they adopt tenaciously. __________________________ > I also have another question: What is the basis for your belief in all > these so very *precise* details of kammic consequence and hell destinations? > It isn't based on "this moment" surely, and it doesn't seem presently > verifiable or refutable. Doesn't it seem to you that it makes sense to have at least a > modicum of tentativeness in accepting what is not testable? Is there no room > for holding assent in check and simply thinking "perhaps so, but maybe not" ____________________________________ Very few humans after death gor to a human or deva world, according to the texts, most to animal or lower. So I don't see any advanatge in trying to cultivate a doubting mind, it is ,rather, an imperative to use every means to develop faith and cultivate samvega, urgency. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma- ajivo/index.html Buddha: Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.057.nymo.html ""One has met an obstruction to heaven and an obstruction to the path to liberation. It is impossible for him to reach heaven immediately following the present existence, much less to reach liberation. This being has become a stump in the round of existences, a watchman of the earth. Generally one like this does not emerge from existence."" Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi Commentary to the Sammanaphala sutta p80 ----------------------------------------- http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL05.html Ledi Sayadaw: "Although the beings with sakkaya-ditthi are bound for hell, they may know to some extent the intensity of suffering in the lower worlds, and they may perform evil actions, simply because they are tempted by their hellish element. What can be said then of those people who are either utterly ignorant of this or who maintain false views? Their hellish element will play its part completely." Robert ""Whoever does not see fools will always be happy. Whoever associates with fools suffers a long time. Being with fools, as with an enemy, is always painful. Being with the wise, like meeting with family, is joyful. Therefore, one should follow the wise, the intelligent, the learned, the patient, the dutiful, the noble;"" #71070 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Meditation Tip - tandem sarahprocter... Hi Dieter (& Howard), I'm enjoying your discussions with Sukin, Howard and others. I'm impressed by your good humour and pleasant manner when friends disagree with comments and so on:). --- Dieter Möller wrote: > Hi Howard, > > I agree with you that it is ultimately the sword of wisdom /panna.. > the tandem of samatha and vipassana leading to it as far as I see it .. .... S: I agree with this - there cannot be vipassana without samatha.... We read about how they are 'yoked' together at moments of insight too. .... > another tandem stated is that of Jhana and Panna.. as mentioned below ... S: As I understand, there cannot be jhana without panna, but this is not necessarily the panna of vipassana. Before the Buddha's time, there was jhana with panna, but no development of satipatthana or vipassana. At moments of lokuttara cittas arising, the concentration is said to be equivalent to 1st jhana at least (appana samadhi). For those who have never attained mundane jhana, it is 1st jhana level. So sometimes this is what is referred to in context. ... > There is no meditative absorption > Without wisdom. > There is no wisdom > Without meditative absorption. > With both, > One is close to Nirvana. > Dhammapada 372 .... S: If you have time, you may like to look at more discussion and detailon these lines and the point I just touched on in "Useful Posts" in the files, under: -Dhammapada2-Jhana & Nibbana -Jhana-Two Meanings *** I'll be glad to read any of your further thoughts. Thx for quoting AN11.30 in #70713 Metta, Sarah ======= #71071 From: "cultry1" Date: Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:09 pm Subject: Re: anatta cultry1 Nina, I'm very "new" in this group, but I still admire you. I am really fortunate to have access to all your writings. I want to wish you many new writings and lectures for your birthday. Be always with us. Claudia #71072 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Thanks for your input, welcome back. ... Sarah: Thx! A pleasure to be back..... ... > "43. Although those of wrong view, on seeing such exalted objects as > the Enlightened One or the Order, or a great shrine and so on, shut > their eyes and feel grief (domanassa), and on hearing the sound of the > Law they stop their ears, nevertheless their eye-consciousness, > ear-consciousness, etc. are only profitable [kamma-] result." > > S: "Of course they are all conditioned dhammas. I wouldn't say 'the > feeling does not correspond to the moment of result' as that is one > condition, but you're right that the feeling referred to (the > domanassa in this case) arises later, by other conditions. This would > primarily be pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support > condition), i.e. the accumulations to have unpleasant feeling with > aversion on account of such objects as I understand." > > Scott: Right, they are all conditioned dhammaa. And again, right, the > domanassa, for example, which arises later relates to the moment of > result by other conditions - as you note, pakatupanissaya-paccaya. > > Can we say that this particular feeling (the domanassa), though, is > not related to the moment of result in the same way as the feeling > accompanying the moment of result itself? .... Sarah: Yes. The feeling accompanying the vipaka citta is vipaka too. They are both conditioned by (past) kamma and condition each other conascence (sahajaata paccaya) for example, as you know. In the case of the domanassa accompanying the subsequent cittas with dosa (aversion), this is not true. The dosa and domanassa arise mainly due to our accumulations for such, i.e by pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition). An arahant experiences the former - e.g. (unpleasant bodily feeling) conditioned by kamma, but not the latter domanassa. ... >That is, not by, say, > kamma-paccaya, vipaaka-paccaya, or other conditions of that moment? ... Sarah: By other conditions... .... > It is that feeling, conascent with the vipaaka-citta, that I was > wondering about. That's the one I thought defined agreeable or > disagreeable. I'm afraid I'm almost no further ahead on this. .... Sarah: I'd say that the object, e.g visible object or sound or tangible object is itself intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable. Kusala vipaka (and conascent mental factors) experiences intrinsically agreeable, while akusala vipaka experiences intrinsically disagreeable objects. In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting, the conascent feeling is actually neutral..... We can make generalisations (as even the Abhidhamma texts do), but we cannot know for sure (and there's no point in trying to know) whether at any given moment the sound or taste experienced is intrinsically desirable or not. .... > In the above - the moment of hearing the Dhamma - wouldn't this be > agreeable in all cases? .... Sarah: Again, we can only generalise. Hearing only ever hears sound and this may be agreeable or disagreeable at any given instant. For example, someone may be speaking about the Dhamma but in a very loud or gruff voice. It depends on vipaka at any moment whether it is desirable or undesirable sound heard. Usually when we consider/read about the great value in hearing the Dhamma, it refers to the cittas with wisdom which attend. ... >How would micca-di.t.thi effect this > experience? That is, at what point in the process would this dhamma > (micca-di.t.thi) have its effect? It would seem to me that this would > be during impulsion, which is later. .... S: Yes, miccha ditthi can arise with either the sense-door or mind-door javana cittas. So, instead of attending wisely, there is attending unwisely. So the sounds heard in this case are not of value at all. Or take a cat in the room - maybe kusala vipaka, but no wise attending, no 'hearing the Dhamma'. It always comes back to the citta, the present citta as Ken H was stressing when he said 'the world is a moment of consciousness..............Sila, dana and bhavana, if they exist at all, exist in one moment of consciousness.' I thought that was rather deep, (not that I disagreed with what you were saying in the discussion:-)). .... > You add this in post #9986: > > "Wrong views (ditthi) are one of the proclivities (s. anusaya), > cankers (s. aasava), clingings (s. upaadaana), one of the three modes > of perversions (s. vipallaasa). Unwholesome consciousness (akusala > citta), rooted in greed, may be either with or without wrong views > (ditthigata-sampayutta or vippayutta); s. Dhs.; Tab I." > > Scott: I cited CMA (p.172) where it was noted: > > "According to Abhidhamma philosophy, the distinction in the quality of > objects pertains to the intrinsic nature of the object itself; it is > not a variable determined by the individual temperament and > preferences of the experiencer." .... Sarah : - yes, this relates to what I said above. We need to be clear what the object is in an ultimate sense - it is sound, visible object and so on. What is experienced is determined by kamma primarily. .... > Scott: This is clear. When citing the Sammohavinodanii regarding the > matter of the 'intrinsically desirable and undesirable', however, the > authors choose to use the portion which states, seemingly in > contradiction to the above: > > "It is distinguishable according to what is found desirable at one > time and undesirable at another time by average men..." .... Sarah: Speaking generally.....Generally for most (average) men, hearing thunder is akusala vipaka, the experiencing of undesirable sounds. But for some, with hearing defects, for example, it may not be so. .... > Scott: This is confusing, to me, since in the Sammohavinodanii, the > above phrase seems to be clarified by quoting the Elder Tipi.taka > Cuula-Abhaya (note that the phrase begins with 'but'): > > "But the Elder Tipi.taka Cuula-Abhaya said: 'The agreeable and > disagreeable are distinguishable according to [kamma-] result > (vipaaka) only, not according to impulsion (javana)...Only by way of > [kamma-] result, however, is it rightly distinguishable. For [kamma-] > resultant consciousness cannot be mistaken. If the object is > agreeable it is profitable result that has arisen; if disagreeable, it > is unprofitable result that has arisen." .... Sarah: Exactly. Only vipaka is the final 'arbiter', not our judgments or generalisations. .... > Scott: It will be great when you clear this all up in your next post! ... Sarah: This same point tends to lead to a lot of confusion, so please let me know if anything I've said seems unclear or contradictory. Enjoying all your other good discussions full of good quotes. Metta, Sarah ========= #71073 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Atta views: suffering and/or happiness sarahprocter... Hi Herman (Antony & James), .... S: If we take the computer to be a 'substantial thing' that exists, that lasts longer than a finger-snap, then there is atta belief as I see it. This does not mean that there is atta-ditthi every-time we think about, read about or fix computers. Rest-assured, a sotapanna can still work all day with computers, but with no illusion that what is ever experienced is anything other that sights, sounds, tangible objects experienced through the senses and ideas about these. I liked this comment of Ken H's: "While we are going about our daily lives, fleeting, soulless mental and physical phenomena(cittas, cetasikas and rupas) are arising, performing their functions and falling away. It is by learning about these - and, eventually, knowing them directly - that perfect morality and wisdom are accomplished." So we continue going about our daily lives as usual, but with less and less delusion about atta in one of its many guises as I see it. .... H:> Nice to see you back. ... S: Likewise! I think this may be a good discussion, so let's pursue it too (slowly on my part). Metta, Sarah p.s How's Vicki's health now? Better, I hope. ======== #71074 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:34 am Subject: Re: Virtue philofillet Hi Robert Thanks for this excellent question. > In most discussions of Buddhist teachings, if the question would be > asked - Why practice virtue? - the answer would be something along the > lines that this practice brings non-harming, joy, calm, is helpful to > meditation practice, and leads to good rebirth. Yes, this is what we find in several suttas. For example, AN VI, 50. "If there is no sense control, o monks, then the basis for virtue is destroyed for one who lacks sense control. If there is no virtue, then the basis for right concentration is destroyed for one who lacks virtue. If there is no concentration, then the basis for knowledge and vision of things as they really are is destroyed for one who lacks concentration." Very clear, utterly clear. From what I understand, the concentration involved here must be of the degree of momentary concentration (khanica?) which, from listening to Bhikkhu Bodhi and the Burmese Sayadaws, and reading the Heart of Buddhist Meditation by Nyanaponika Therea, can only come in meditation. Thus, the "dry insight" worker that is vaunted by the non-meditators in this group is in fact a meditator, according to those respected sources. Also, there is AN X, 1. The benefits of virtue are laid out in a very explicit way, as you have suggested above. Virtue> non- remorse>gladness>joy>serenity>happiness>concentration>knowledge and vision fo things as they really are. (I think we are better off with a commentary on this sutta, to know what is meant by those English terms.) So yes, the virtue>bhavana aspect is laid out in a very clear way. However, in my opinion, there is far too much interest in bhavana in this group, and far too much going after the deepest of the Buddha's teachings. (I think anyone who is passionately fond of Abhidhamma is suspect of wanting to get at the deepest teachings in a premature way, again in my opinion.) THese days I am appreciating much more conventional aspects of virtue. For example, one of my favorite suttas is AN III, 51. Two elderly householders come to the Buddha and tell him that they are concerned in the face of death, because they have not done enough good deeds. And the Buddha tells them this that they are correct to be concerned about this: "Life is swept away, brief is our span of year, there are no shelters for one who has reached old age. Perceiving the peril that lurks in death, perform good deeds that entail happiness. When one is restrained in body, restrained by speech and by mind, the deeds of merit one did while alive bring happiness when one departs." (this is an addition in verse paraphrasing the Buddha's words, I think.) When people are prematurely reduced to paramattha terms, there is all sorts of talk about life being one moment of citta and so on, and the conventional summing up of what one has or hasn't done in life understood in the conventional way is underappreciated. You even here people talking about being aware of their unwholesome behavior in speech, body and mind, but somehow having bhavana deepened as a result of this. Quite wrong. I think we are better off remaining aware of our deeds in a conventional way, in line with conventional morality. For example, you will hear students of Acharn Sujin tell the world that if one abstains from an evil deeds, but with clinging to self, the abstention is somehow negated, and only leads to more clinging, more samsara etc. This is the thinking of people are too fond to trying to go too deep. When we are old we will have refuge in our good deeds - it is that simple. I think this is the approach that is prevalent in Asian countries. Unfortunately, it is corrupted by thinking that dishing out money to temples is a deed of merit, but I am more fond of thinking about deeds of kindness. For example, I was recently awarded a certificate for having had the highest rating of any teacher in the Tokyo area, based on student surveys. (Out of over 100 teachers.) Now, mentionning this, or taking pride in it would be thought of as clinging to self, conceit, by the students of Acharn Sujin. But I find a refuge in it, thinking that I have been doing this work for over 10 years, and have brought happiness to literally thousands of students at my huge chain conversation school. I would rather be inspired by this to continue to be a kind and patient *person* bring laughter and happiness to shy, nervous *people* and feel confident that this is dana and sila, rather than try hard to figure out what paramattha dhammas are involved. We are busy householders - trying to force deeper understanding into our lives is a mistake, in my opinion. An understandable mistake, because naturally enough we aspire to the understanding of the Buddha, but best to be inspired by it rather than aspire to it, if you know what I mean. That, Robert, was a Phil babble just for you! Just popping in so won't be able to comment further, but please enjoy. Metta, Phil #71075 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conventional / Ultimate sarahprocter... Hi Dieter & Howard, An important point comes up here, I think: --- upasaka@... wrote: D:> > I stumbled upon B.'s statement > > 'Ethics, meditation and wisdom are not founded on some absolute truth, > but > > grow out of a careful examination of what causes suffering and what > brings it > > to an end. Enlightenment, for the Buddha, entailed simply paying > attention to > > the phenomenal flux of your own empirical experience. ' > > > > would you say that is the point of view K.S. is taking ? > > > ========================== H:> I'm not all that clear on her positions. At times it seems she > advocates that, but at other times it seems she doesn't recognize the > possibility of > willing the doing of anything. So, I just don't know. .... S: Careful examination suggests wise thinking to me. It may be a condition for direct understanding and is certainly a necessary pre-requisite, but is not itself direct knowledge. Likewise, I don't think that enlightenment for the Buddha or anyone else can be said to be a matter of 'simply paying attention to the phenomenal flux of your own empirical experience'. As Howard suggests in passing, this seems to suggest 'the willing of doing' something. The path, on the other hand, is about the development of sati-sampajanna, the development of awareness and understanding of what has been conditioned to appear already. If there is the idea of 'paying attention' to say, the visible object or sound which has arisen, this will not lead to the development of awareness, but to focussing on selected objects, 'willing' them to appear, I think. But, KS would probably have asked you at the outset more about what you mean by 'paying attention to the phenomenal flux.....', so let me ask you to elaborate if you'd care to in order to really understand your pov. Metta, Sarah ======== #71076 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati sarahprocter... Dear Nidhi, I'm glad to meet you here as well. I had thought you might be living in India. Whereabouts do you live? Some of us will be visiting Delhi and then the Buddhist holy places in Bihar in October. I like your keen reflections, such as these in #70801 --- wisdomcompassion wrote: > dear friends > i feel to develop sati we must experiment. i like experimenting > using buddhas words as he used in the sutta. <...> > with perseverance and practice it can be done. we must not look for > result but just try it out of interest. then it gives good result. .... S: This relates to the post I just sent to Dieter & Howard. Back to your question about what sati is, I think it's not so much a matter of experimenting or doing anything, because self can get in the way then. Dhammas such as seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, thinking and feeling can 'appear', one at a time. Sati can arise and be aware of this dhamma just when it appears without any special doing, as I see it. At the moment of seeing, only the world of visible object appears. Nothing else. There can be awareness of it, awareness of just that which is seen momentarily. This is how sati develops very naturally at this very moment. At the moment of touching tangible object, just the world of tangible object appears. Again sati can be aware. When feeling, thinking or any other dhamma appears, it is the same. Gradually it will become more apparent that there are only ever dhammas arising and falling away - no self to experiment, no legs, no walking, no people in a restaurant. Thanks again for all your helpful reflections, such as those on anatta in #70803 as well. Metta, Sarah ====== #71077 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Virtue nilovg Dear Phil, good to see you. I quoted below about your award and I rejoice so much in it. I am really very glad and I understand that this encourages you to continue teaching as you did. You worked so hard and now you see that it brings fruits. Nina. Op 25-apr-2007, om 9:34 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > For example, I was > recently awarded a certificate for having had the highest rating of > any teacher in the Tokyo area, based on student surveys. (Out of over > 100 teachers.) Now, mentionning this, or taking pride in it would be > thought of as clinging to self, conceit, by the students of Acharn > Sujin. But I find a refuge in it, thinking that I have been doing > this work for over 10 years, and have brought happiness to literally > thousands of students at my huge chain conversation school. I would > rather be inspired by this to continue to be a kind and patient > *person* bring laughter and happiness to shy, nervous *people* and > feel confident that this is dana and sila, rather than try hard to > figure out what paramattha dhammas are involved. #71078 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue nilovg Dear Robert A, We have to know first what arises and passes away, thus, we have to know more about the very phenomena that arise and pass away first. When you read the suttas you will notice that the Buddha speaks about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. We should know these, not in theory but when they appear right now. Have you read Sarah's post (what is sati) to Nidhi? I quote: < At the moment of seeing, only the world of visible object appears. Nothing else. There can be awareness of it, awareness of just that which is seen momentarily. This is how sati develops very naturally at this very moment. At the moment of touching tangible object, just the world of tangible object appears. Again sati can be aware. When feeling, thinking or any other dhamma appears, it is the same. > See, this is a beginning and the arising and falling away can be realized by pa~n~na later on. But first the characteristics of the dhammas appearing one at a time must be investigated by pa~n~na. This is the way pa~n~naa develops, and only pa~n~na that is more developed can realize the arising and falling away of the dhammas that appear one at a time. There is no other way. This is the training, this is the practice. We have to remember that it is not 'I' who can do it. Only pa~n~na that develops because of its own conditions: listening, discussion, study. If one wishes to know the arising and falling away of dhammas quickly, there is clinging to a result and that is counteractive. Nina. Op 24-apr-2007, om 16:49 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > I have never questioned the value of seeing things arise and pass > away, but have always felt I needed certain practices to make it > possible for me to do that - I needed a training, and the practice > of virtue was an important part of that training. #71079 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:45 am Subject: what is sati to Nidhi nilovg Dear Nidhi, ------- Nidhi: thinking about all these didnt free me from clinging. i tried not to cling as well,not to have any desire as well, but that also didnt work. ------- Nina: this is very good, here you show that you are learning. You tried not to cling, but there was still clinging. We can learn that clinging is a dhamma arising because of its own conditions. We are apt to think of my clinging, but now we can learn that this is not so. Clinging cannot go away on command. In the Suttas clinging, lobha, is compared to a teacher and a pupil. The teacher is followed everywhere, and also a pupil follows someone, like a shadow. We follow lobha and lobha is always with us. Everyone loves himself and would like to be without defilements. When such a wish is motivated by self love, it is not the way. The Buddha taught the way to be without defilements, and this is the development of understanding, which means understanding also of akusala as a conditioned dhamma. ----------- Nidhi: so i m rather interested in knowing what exactly happens inside me. ... if anyone else is aware of any other method/way so that this conditioning/clinging can be 'completely' eradicated, please let me know. i m very much interested in that. -------- Nina: It is a long, long way, a gradual development of more understanding. Sarah gave you the basics in her post to you. When pa~n~naa has been developed to the stage of arahatship all clinging is eradicated. But first the wrong view of self has to be eradicated. There is no method to arrive quickly at this result. We cannot control pa~n~na. There is no need to answer this post since I am rounding off before my trip. Nina. #71080 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anatta nilovg Dear Claudia, Thank you for your kind wishes. Any questions are most welcome. Nina. Op 25-apr-2007, om 8:09 heeft cultry1 het volgende geschreven: > Nina, I'm very "new" in this group, but I still admire you. I am > really fortunate to have access to all your writings. I want to wish > you many new writings and lectures for your birthday. Be always > with us. #71081 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:04 am Subject: Re: Falling in Love? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, You posted this yesterday and I have been thinking about it, mulling it over ever since: S: I'd also like to relate these comments to your important discussion with others over 'Think not lightly of evil' in the Dhp you quoted, considering our mind to be 'an open sore' as Phil said and KS's comments about not hating akusala etc. No one has ever pointed out the danger of attachment and all kinds of akusala to me as she has done. This, however, is quite different from taking it for being one's own and being disturbed by it, wishing it otherwise or hating it. That was the point of the comments you referred to. Indeed, it is only with understanding and detachment (or equanimity as Scott stressed) that akusala and evil of all kinds will truly be seen for what it is. Minding about it, clinging to oneself and one's character never sees it with detachment." James: What you have written here seems nice and agreeable…even sweet….but after much consideration I have to tell you that I just don't buy it!! (Get yourself prepared for a storm…:-) Let us imagine that Seung-Hui Cho, the Virgina Tech shooter, was a member of DSG before the shootings because he wanted to get some insight into the anger and hatred in his mind. He knew it was wrong, he knew it was hurtful, but it was tearing him apart and he had no one else to turn to. Turning to Buddhism, a teaching of peace and tranquillity, would of course be the best course of action for him to take. But, what does he find at DSG? He finds the words of KS, who many members admire, telling him that anger and hatred aren't ugly- they are just realities. We all have anger and hatred- it's nothing to be bothered about. We shouldn't concern ourselves with how much anger and hatred we have in our minds, we should just understand it. Well, that is the perfect message for Seung-Hui Cho to hear! He doesn't need to be concerned about his anger and hatred anymore, its natural!! All he needs to do is understand his anger and hatred, as KS teaches. Well, that's easy for him to do: his anger and hatred is caused by rich kids and unfriendly girls! Case closed! Get rid of all of those pesky rich kids and girls and his anger could go away! So now he doesn't need to do anything about his anger and hatred, he doesn't need to eliminate it, he can just express it freely and let it be in equanimity! So, he goes on a shooting rampage and kills as many rich kids and girls as he can. That's Cho's solution. And he read nothing in the words of KS to dissuade him otherwise. If you think this example is extreme, think again!! Just how many future Cho's are right now in DSG reading the messages…looking for help, looking for answers?? We have a responsibility and we shouldn't take it lightly!! What should Seung-Hui Cho have read at DSG? He should have read that in no way, no how, and no kidding should the defilements be tolerated! He should have been told that if he feels so angry that he wants to kill something (kill anything) then he should kill his anger: Having killed what do you sleep in ease? Having killed what do you not grieve? Of the slaying of what one thing does Gotama approve? [The Buddha:] Having killed anger you sleep in ease. Having killed anger you do not grieve. The noble ones praise the slaying of anger — with its honeyed crest & poison root — for having killed it you do not grieve. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.071.than.html This is the message that the future Cho's should read, not the message of KS that we shouldn't hate our defilements or that our defilements aren't ugly. That message of KS is stupid to the extreme! And I don't care how much Nina, Scott, Ken H., or you Sarah try to back-peddle out of this teaching by KS, it is still inappropriate. Do any of you want the future blood on your hands?? Metta, James #71082 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] anatta jonoabb Hi Howard > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My belated birthday wishes to you, Nina - a very young lady, whatever > years have passed! Happy upcoming birthday to you, too, Sarah, and also to > Jon, whose birthday is this Thursday, I think, the day after mine. (Am I right, > Jon?) Two stubborn Taureans! LOLOL! (Of course, I prefer to say "intransigent" > instead of "stubborn"! ;-)) > ------------------------------------------------ > Yes, we each need a lot of convincing ;-)). Best wishes for your birthday today. Hope your cold/asthma/bronchitis is getting better. Jon PS I picked up a cold on the flight back from England and that together with jet-lag has kept me quiet for the past few days. #71083 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate (Nidhi) scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: James: "...What did you come here for?" Scott: I think it was Nina that asked me a version of this question quite awhile back, to which I replied - I don't know the post number off hand. In a nutshell I came here to learn. The other details are relevant only to me and are, I think, non-transferrable (for wont of a better term). Following an ineffable experience which 'introduced' me to 'buddhism', shortly after the death of my wife, I was left with a need to learn the Teachings. I knew virtually nothing about them. Traversing the dangerous field of views, I found myself discussing something or other on a thread on another buddhist web-site. It happened to be Rob K. who noted that there is a difference between the conventional and the ultimate. That I experienced this as shatteringly correct had nothing to do with Rob. It had to do with Dhamma. The experience, as with the previous one, was also ineffable. To be brief, Christine suggested I come and read on DSG, which I did. I can't explain to you how it is that I find no problems with Abhidhamma, commentarial exegesis, or the manifold other things with which others here take umbrage. I can't explain to you how it is that I find myself unable to see 'meditation' the way you do. I just know that I don't. I come here to learn as much as I can about Dhamma. I find myself virtually incapable of eclectism. I'm not interested in comparative study. I don't seek 'meditation' instruction. I don't seek convincing or cajoling or direction. I just want to consider Dhamma, again, exactly in the way outlined in the statement on the home page: "Description A discussion forum for anyone interested in understanding the Buddha's teachings as found in all three baskets of the Tipitaka, the original record of the Buddha's word in the Theravada tradition, and as further elucidated in the ancient commentaries of that tradition. The discussions include matters of both theory and practice, with the aim of developing precise understanding of dhammas (the 'realities' of the present moment)." Scott: That's it. I'm here for no more. Its enough. I don't doubt it - I just haven't learned it all yet. I feel I have no time to waste discussing certain things - and that's a flaw in me, I lack the patience evidenced, say, by Nina or Sarah or Jon. If I don't doubt something, I will plunge into it. I don't believe that I need to adopt some a priori attitude or pseudo-scientific caution vis-a-vis something I already - and I can't help it - experience as correct. And I have nothing to teach anyone else, so I just want to discuss Dhamma. Hope that answers the question, which, hopefully, was not rhetorical... Sincerely, Scott. #71084 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/24/07 11:34:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > >Hi, Robert - > > > >In a message dated 4/24/07 2:03:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@... > >writes: > > > >>The worst kamma is wrong view that denies kamma and rebirth, and > >>sadly those who hold such views are almost certain to descend to > one > >>of the hells after death. > >========================== > > Worse than the kamma of a torturer-murderer of infants who > believes in > >rebirth and that s/he will suffer consequences, yet engages in such > monstrous > >behavior anyway because it simply "feels so good" and delights > him/her so > >much? > > Dear Howard, > If someone belives in kamma and rebirth how could they be a torturer- > murderer of infants. At the least knowing they are soon destined for > the prolonged tortures of hell must spoil their fun.. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't at all think these could not co-exist in the same fevered mind. Humans are quite capable of holding apparently incompatible notions. Hitler, BTW, held many mystical and magical beliefs, it is said, and it wouldn't suprise me that he held a belief in rebirth and even kamma. For him, "killing monsterous subhumans such as Jews to save the Master Race would be nothing but heroic and deserving of reward!" At present there are people in the world who believe in murder of some people as a good deed that will send them into the arms of 72 virgins in some heaven world. Don't put so much stock in beliefs, Robert! They're not worth a thing, folks working their way around them by all sorts of techniques. I think you underestimate the abilities of humans to tailor belief, or to conveniently ignore belief, in service to their desires. ------------------------------------------- > > > > > > And what of a materalist-atheist-annihilationist whose heart > aches for > >those who suffer, who selflessly finds joy in the happiness of > his/her fellow > >creatures, and who lives a lifetime of genuininely compassionate > service? > >Does s/he go to hell, Robert? > _______________ > > I said 'almost'. It is not an absolute certainty they will go to hell > unless the view is one they adopt tenaciously. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: And if a person such as I described above *is* tenacious? Is hell then certain for that very good person? Robert, this just doesn't make sense. The goodness of people is not to be measured by belief but by their heart and their action. We are not hell bent for merely erroneous belief, but for evil intention and evil action pursuant to them, and for evil intention and action that occur in *spite* of belief, the latter "impossibility" being a perfectly common occurrence. When the effect of misbelief is not offset and it results in allowing hate and violence to flourish, certainly it is supportive of evil kamma that will have dire consequences, but when it *is* offset, stymied by metta, mudita, and karuna, it will not support evil kamma. Humans are complex, and behavior and results are not easily predictable. ------------------------------------------------------ With metta, Howard #71085 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] anatta upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 4/25/07 6:59:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Best wishes for your birthday today. > > Hope your cold/asthma/bronchitis is getting better. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. :-) The whatever-it-is I have is still a lot of trouble! Ah, well. :-( --------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > PS I picked up a cold on the flight back from England and that together > with jet-lag has kept me quiet for the past few days. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I hope it's a lot better by tomorrow, Jon. ======================= With metta, Howard #71086 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:15 am Subject: what must we slay to live happily? To James. nilovg Dear James (and Phil), your quote is exactly what is in Kh Sujin's book on Metta. It is excellent. -------- James: Having killed anger you sleep in ease. Having killed anger you do not grieve. ---------- James, about not bothering about one's defilements. I heard something this morning in a Thai session that may clear up misunderstandings. It is a subtle point and I understand that you and Phil are truly concerned. < When there is pa~n~naa, one is not disturbed by one's defilements.> N: Thus, one can only say this at the moment of kusala citta with pa~n~naa. At that moment one understands akusala as a conditioned dhamma, and then there is no akusala citta at that moment. When one just says this without pa~n~naa it is meaningless, it can be dangerous. Everybody can say that they are not disturbed, but the cittas are different. The talk went on about anattaa, using it as an excuse not to bother about kusala and akusala. One may say: o, it is anattaa, it cannot be helped. That is quite wrong. quote: < Or one may say, I am not yet a non-returner, so I won't bother about clinging. One may just say the word anatta without any understanding, using it as an excuse. One should not be negligent with regard to one's defilements. One should develop more understanding.> I know Phil is concerned about the last sentence. But when understanding develops more, even a little, it is beneficial. It will eventually lead to a lessening of defilements. When reading a sutta, each time we understand a little more, and that is development of pa~n~naa. What other reason is there to read suttas? But did you notice: do not be negligent. Her insistance on earnestness, vigilance. Develop all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity, even now, at this very moment. Then our life is not in vain. James, you may have sincere mudita for Phil's success and express this in words. Howard gives always such a good example of this form of dana. I mention this, because it is a way of dana some people do not know of. Let us not overlook small matters, opportunities for kusala in our way of speech, or respect for others. That is a form of siila. All those things I learnt from Kh Sujin when I was living in Bgk. Nina. #71087 From: connie Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:25 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (52) nichiconn dear friends, Back to Veluvana we go... not only where Buddha rocks the Queen's world, but also where the whole world trembled during the dedication of the park to the Order. In our last epidode, Queen Khema had just come upon "a young bhikkhu who was intent on investigation." "Iidise vipine ramme, .thitoya.m navayobbane; vasantamiva kantena, ruupena ca samanvito. "Nisinno rukkhamuulamhi, mu.n.do sa"nghaa.tipaaruto; jhaayate vataya.m bhikkhu, hitvaa visayaja.m rati.m. "Nanu naama gaha.t.thena, kaama.m bhutvaa yathaasukha.m; pacchaa ji.n.nena dhammoya.m, caritabbo subhaddako. "Su~n~nakanti viditvaana, gandhageha.m jinaalaya.m; upetvaa jinamaddakkha.m, udayanta.m va bhaakara.m. [I thought] "This young novice is in such a delightful grove possessed of beauty and charm like springtime. "Seated at the foot of a tree, with shaven head, dressed in his outer robe, this bhikkhu is certainly meditating, having abandoned the pleasures arising from the senses. "Cannot this very good Doctrine be practised by a householder who has enjoyed sensual pleasures as much as he likes and afterwards is an old man?" Finding that the perfumed house was empty, I went up to the dwelling of the Conqueror, and I saw the Conqueror like the rising sun. "Ekaka.m sukhamaasiina.m, biijamaana.m varitthiyaa; disvaaneva.m vicintesi.m, naaya.m luukho naraasabho. "Saa ka~n~naa kanakaabhaasaa, padumaananalocanaa; bimbo.t.thii kundadasanaa, manonettarasaayanaa. "Hemadolaabhasavanaa, kalikaakaarasutthanii; vedimajjhaava susso.nii, rambhoru caarubhuusanaa. "Ratta.msakupasa.mbyaanaa niilama.t.thanivaasanaa; atappaneyyaruupena, haasabhaavasamanvitaa. "Disvaa tameva.m cintesi.m, ahoyamabhiruupinii; na mayaanena nettena, di.t.thapubbaa kudaacana.m. I saw him seated alone being fanned by a splendid woman, and I thought, "This is not a harsh Bull Among Men." The young woman had a golden radiance, with her eyes and face like a lotus, with red lips. She resembled jasmine, an elixer for the eyes and the mind. Her ears resembled golden swings. Her breasts were like jars. She had a slim waist, beautiful hips, and thighs like a plantain tree with beautiful ornaments. She had a red outer garment, a pure blue garment underneath, and a form one never tires of seeing accompanied by a joyful nature. Seeing her I thought, "Oh, this beautiful woman has never been seen by me with these eye[s]." "Tato jaraabhibhuutaa saa, viva.n.naa vikataananaa; bhinnadantaa setasiraa, salaalaa vadanaasuci. "Sa.mkhittaka.n.naa setakkhii, lambaasubhapayodharaa; valivitatasabba"ngii, siraavitatadehinii. "Nata"ngaa da.n.dadutiyaa, upphaasulikataa kisaa; pavedhamaanaa patitaa, nissasantii muhu.m muhu.m. "Tato me aasi sa.mvego, abbhuto lomaha.msano; dhiratthu ruupa.m asuci.m, ramante yattha baalisaa. "Tadaa mahaakaaru.niko, disvaa sa.mviggamaanasa.m; udaggacitto sugato, imaa gaathaa abhaasatha. Then she was overcome by old age, wan, with her face unclean and altered, with broken teeth, white hair, and her speech was babbling. Her ears were shriveled up. She had white eyes, and her breasts were ugly and drooped down. All her limbs were flabby and wrinkled, and her body was covered with veins. Her limbs were bent, she was using a stick, her ribs were protruding, she was thin, and she was trembling. She fell down and sighed repeatedly. Then I was profoundly stirred with astonishing excitement. Woe on impure beauty that the ignorant delight in! Then the One of Great Compassion, saw me with my mind deeply stirred, with a happy mind. And the Sublime one spoke these verses: "Aatura.m asuci.m puuti.m, passa kheme samussaya.m; uggharanta.m paggharanta.m, baalaana.m abhinandita.m. "Asubhaaya citta.m bhaavehi, ekagga.m susamaahita.m; sati kaayagataa tyatthu, nibbidaa bahulaa bhava. "Yathaa ida.m tathaa eta.m, yathaa eta.m tathaa ida.m; ajjhatta~nca bahiddhaa ca, kaaye chanda.m viraajaya. "Animitta~nca bhaavehi, maanaanusayamujjaha; tato maanaabhisamayaa, upasantaa carissasi. "Ye raagarattaanupatanti sota.m, saya.m kata.m makka.takova jaala.m; etampi chetvaana paribbajanti, anapekkhino kaamasukha.m pahaaya. "See the body, Khemaa, diseased, impure, rotten, oozing, trickling, the delight of fools. "Develop the mind, intent and well concentrated, for contemplation of the unpleasant. Be mindful concerning the body. Be intent on disenchantment. "As this is, so is that. As that is, so is this. Purify yourself of physical desire both internally and externally. "And develop the signless, cast out latent tendency to conceit. Then by the full understanding of conceit, you will wander, stilled. "Whoever pursues passion makes a stream for himself as a spider [spins] its web. After severing that, wandering free from longing, he has abandoned the happiness of the sensual pleasures." === tomorrow then, connie. #71088 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:32 am Subject: Conditions, Preface, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, The Conditionality of Life in the Buddhist Teachings An outline of the Twenty-four Conditions as taught in the Abhidhamma Preface The Buddha's teaching on the conditions for the phenomena of our life has been laid down in the last of the seven books of the Abhidhamma,the "Pa.t.thåna'', or "Conditional Relations''. The Buddha, in the night he attained enlightenment, penetrated all the different conditions for the phenomena which arise and he contemplated the "Dependant Origination'' (Paticca Samuppåda),t he conditions for being in the cycle of birth and death, and the way leading to the elimination of these causes. We read in the Introduction of the Atthasåliní (The Expositor, the commentary to the Dhammasaògaùí, the first book of the Abhidhamma) that the Buddha, during the fourth week after his enlightenment, sat in the "Jewel House'', in the north west direction, and contemplated the Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma was laid down later on in seven books.We read: ...And while he contemplated the contents of the "Dhammasanganí'', his body did not emit rays; and similarly with the contemplation of the next five books. But when, coming to the "Great Book'', he began to contemplate the twenty-four universal causal relations of condition, of presentation, and so on, his omniscience certainly found its opportunity therein. For as the great fish Timirati-pingala finds room only in the great ocean eighty-four thousand yojanas in depth, so his omniscience truly finds room only in the Great Book. Rays of six colours-indigo, golden, red, white, tawny,and dazzling- issued from the Teacher's body, as he was contemplating the subtle and abstruse Dhamma by his omniscience which had found such opportunity.... The teaching of the conditional relations is deep and it is not easy to read the "Pa.t.thåna'', but we could at least begin to study different conditions and verify them in daily life. Before we knew the Buddha's teachings we used to think of cause and effect in a speculative way. We may have reflected on the origin of life, on the origin of the world, we may have thought about causes and effects with regard to the events of life, but we did not penetrate the real conditions for the phenomena of life. The Buddha taught the way to develop understanding of what is true in the absolute or ultimate sense. ******* Nina. #71089 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:49 am Subject: Re: Virtue avalo1968 Hello Phil, Thank you very much for your response to my question, particularly for the sutta references you provided and for your thoughts on this subject. You hit on many of the points I have been considering since I started reading here, although you have a better ability to express these questions better than I do. Regards, Robert A. #71090 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: anatta nilovg Dear TG, yes, that is why the Visuddhimagga went over the conditions as taught in the Patthana, before it dealt with the D.O. I will read from my 'Conditions' to Lodewijk tonight and start a new series. Nina Op 25-apr-2007, om 4:54 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > Understanding conditionality is key for generating insight into > impermanence, > affliction, and no-self. And this insight is key in overcoming > affliction/dukkha. #71091 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind response to my question. I am still having great difficulty seeing what you are saying, but you and others in the group have given me much to work with, and I appreciate your help. As you said before, we all have to work at our own pace, and I will continue to work at mine - maybe over time what you are expressing will become more clear to me. As I have been reading here, my reaction to the ideas you express has been very similar to my reaction when reading J. Krishnamurti. A lot of what he says seems to make great sense in theory, but what I have trouble with is, again, finding how to make that theory into a practice. The parallel continues in how he distains all techniques and practices other than choiceless awareness and dismisses anyone who asks him 'how to be aware'. I have two of your books - "Buddhism in Daily Life" and "The Buddha's Path", as well as Khun Sujin's book "Metta -Lovingkindness in Buddhism". Maybe one day, as I am reading these books, the light will go on. I have asked enough questions, so I will be quiet for awhile and just read. With appreciation, Robert A. #71092 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:37 am Subject: Perfections N, no 18 nilovg Dear friends, One may believe that it is difficult for a beginner to be aware of lobha or dosa which are intense. One cannot force sati and if it does not arise should one not try to be calm first, for example by thinking of the Buddha’s teachings? It is true that in the beginning mindfulness of the reality which appears at the present moment does not often arise. There may be conditions for kusala citta with calm but without there being right understanding of the present reality. Because of our wrong understanding it may seem to us that we can tell ourselves, "Now there cannot be mindfulness of nãma and rupa, but I should think of the Buddha’s teachings so that there will be less akusala". In reality all cittas which arise do so because they have their own conditions for their arising, not because we could control them. At some moments it may be possible to think of the Buddha’s teachings and to become calm, but at other moments we may be unable to do so. If one tells oneself that one should become calm first before there can be mindfulness of the present reality there is clinging to calm already and then there is akusala citta. If one wants to do something else first before one develops satipatthana is that not an excuse not to begin to develop understanding right now? Even while we are thinking in that way are there no realities appearing? It is a type of nãma which thinks in that way and it arises because of conditions. One has accumulated such inclination. Without the development of right understanding we are lost because we do not know when there is subtle clinging to "my kusala". Even though we understand in theory that the development of right understanding is urgent there can be many moments that we are distracted from our goal by clinging. While we try to avoid the types of akusala we do not like another type of akusala, a subtle clinging we do not notice, arises. Until one has become a sotãpanna one may deviate from the eightfold Path, led by clinging. But also such moments can be object of mindfulness and that is the way to follow the right Path again. If we are resolute to develop understanding of any reality which appears now, even if it is very unwholesome, we are not tempted to try other ways of practice first, we are not tempted to put off the development of right understanding. I remarked to Khun Sujin that I find it difficult as a beginner to have keen understanding of the object which appears. Khun Sujin answered: The beginner is not keen enough to be aware of all objects which appear. The beginner should begin with one doorway at a time until he is skilful enough to be able to be aware of any object. This is the way. One should not try another way and neglect awareness of the object which appears. The beginner begins to develop right awareness of the object which appears, that is the duty of the beginner. It is good to be reminded of the duty of the beginner, otherwise we make ourselves believe that awareness in daily life is impossible in the beginning and then there will never be true renunciation from all akusala. ******* Nina. #71093 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:18 am Subject: Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > It is a subtle point and I understand that you and Phil are truly > concerned. James: I don't think that this is a "subtle point"; I think it is a very significant issue. But I am glad that you appreciate my concern. > < When there is pa~n~naa, one is not disturbed by one's defilements.> James: *Sigh* This statement is completely false. Nina, you cannot convince me of this position taught by KS by again quoting KS. We are discussing Buddhism and the Buddha is the authority. Can you provide any sutta quotes, or commentaries, or anything at all that can be in support of this? You and I see this matter in the exact opposite way. Truly, it amazes me. Okay, I will keep plugging away.... Here another quote from the Buddha which shows that one is not supposed to "accept" one's defilements: Not by rules and observances, not even by much learning, nor by gain of absorption, nor by a life of seclusion, nor by thinking, "I enjoy the bliss of renunciation, which is not experienced by the worldling" should you, O monks, rest content, until the utter destruction of cankers is reached. Dhammapada 271-272 One is not supposed to "rest content" until the utter destruction of the cankers. Therefore, one is not supposed to be "undisturbed" by one's defilements. Wisdom is being disturbed by one's defilements, not being undisturbed. Only a fool is undisturbed by the presence of the defilements. Metta, James #71094 From: han tun Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:43 am Subject: Daana Corner (45) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, We have come to the last essay compiled by Bhikkhu Bodhi: The Perfection of Giving (Acariya Dhammapala). It is being presented in 7 parts. The following is 3 of 7 parts. Questions, comments and different views welcome:-) ------------------------------ The internal gift should be understood in two ways. How? Just as a man, for the sake of food and clothing, surrenders himself to another and enters into servitude and slavery, in the same way the Great Man, wishing for the supreme welfare and happiness of all beings, desiring to fulfill his own perfection of giving, with a spiritually-oriented mind, for the sake of enlightenment, surrenders himself to another and enters into servitude, placing himself at the disposal of others. Whatever limbs or organs of his might be needed by others — hands, feet, eyes, etc. — he gives them away to those who need them, without trembling and without cowering. He is no more attached to them, and no more shrinks away (from giving them to others), than if they were external objects. Thus the Great Man relinquishes an internal object in two ways: for the enjoyment of others according to their pleasure; or, while fulfilling the wishes of those who ask, for his own self-mastery. In this matter he is completely generous, and thinks: "I will attain enlightenment through non-attachment." Thus the giving of the internal gift should be understood. Herein, giving an internal gift, he gives only what leads to the welfare of the recipient, and nothing else. The Great Man does not knowingly give his own body, limbs, and organs to Mara or to the malevolent deities in Mara' s company, thinking: "Let this not lead to their harm." And likewise, he does not give to those possessed by Mara or his deities, or to madmen. But when asked for these things by others, he gives immediately, because of the rarity of such a request and the difficulty of making such a gift. The giving of fearlessness is the giving of protection to beings when they have become frightened on account of kings, thieves, fire, water, enemies, lions, tigers, other wild beasts, dragons, ogres, demons, goblins, etc. To be continued. metta, Han #71095 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Meditation Tip - tandem moellerdieter Hi Sarah (and Howard), you wrote: ' I'm enjoying your discussions with Sukin, Howard and others. I'm impressed by your good humour and pleasant manner when friends disagree with comments and so on:). thanks for that nice feedback , Sarah ! S: As I understand, there cannot be jhana without panna, but this is not necessarily the panna of vipassana. Before the Buddha's time, there was jhana with panna, but no development of satipatthana or vipassana. At moments of lokuttara cittas arising, the concentration is said to be equivalent to 1st jhana at least (appana samadhi). For those who have never attained mundane jhana, it is 1st jhana level. So sometimes this is what is referred to in context D: do you remember the source where it is said? I agree with you in general that we need to study issues in context.. e.g. what may be right mundane understanding can be different at the supramundane level respectively between conventional and ultimate truth .... Like Newton and Einstein , each right in his own field .. but - so it seem to me - that field sometimes difficult to distinguish .... S: If you have time, you may like to look at more discussion and detailon these lines and the point I just touched on in "Useful Posts" in the files, under: -Dhammapada2-Jhana & Nibbana -Jhana-Two Meanings D: thanks.. I will do with Metta Dieter #71096 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections N, no 18 moellerdieter Hi Nina, I have a question.. when you write: 'If one tells oneself that one should become calm first before there can be mindfulness of the present reality there is clinging to calm already and then there is akusala citta. If one wants to do something else first before one develops satipatthana is that not an excuse not to begin to develop understanding right now?' how then does that fit with the Maha Satipatthana Sutta , which starts ( after the introduction) with: 'There , the monk dwells in contemplation of the body, the feelings , the mind , and the mind objects, ardent , clearly conscious and attentive , after putting away wordly greed and grief' or more general the need of putting away respectively lessen the 5 hindrances /Nivarana? with Metta Dieter #71097 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? moellerdieter Hi Howard and Robert, I couldn't resist .... ;-) Robert wrote: 'If someone belives in kamma and rebirth how could they be a torturer- murderer of infants. At the least knowing they are soon destined for the prolonged tortures of hell must spoil their fun..' D: For example in Thailand, a Buddhist country , where usually kamma and rebirth is beyond doubt - following your claim- the rate of murder,robbery etc. should be significantly less than in other countries where such belief is the exception. We know it is not .. Besides the points of greed and hate ,one may not forget the issue of poverty . .for some it is already hell what they are experiencing... Furthermore it is worthwhile to consider ( in particular refering to the supramundane understanding ) what is meant by following excerpt of MN 117, which is often quoted by students from the late Achan Buddhadasa... quote (transl. by Thanissaro Bhikkhu) 'And what is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. And what is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path.' unquote I do not doubt rebirth.. and not what the Buddha stated about recalling his former lives..an experience (Jhana) less rare than one may suppose when believing Achan Brahm... but when remembering some text about the unworthiness of speculation ' what will I be ..', the usefullnes of a discussion of heaven and hell seems to questionable.. with Metta Dieter #71098 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:14 pm Subject: Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... dear sarah i m glad to hear that u people are visiting delhi and buddhist holy places. i live in pune that is in state of maharashtra . i welcome you people to india and our city. i think i have different opinion on the question of effort and other subtle things. i would like to discuss what i think. i hope my grammatical mistakes would be ignored and spirit of the words would be understood. the first question is why should we do dhamma or read or even think about it. the instinctive answer is to free ourselves from misery. but that is superficial one. the real answer is purification. the sutta is full of reference of word "kheenasav"(the one who is purified that is arhant) "nirjara", (nirodh), and chapter 18 of dhammapada (malvaggo) talks about it in detail. basically the whole of tipitaka is full ot that . in india there have been various saints who have talked about it. to name a few i recall lord mahavir, lord krishna, kabir, nanak, j krishnamurti etc. they have used different words for the same thing. that is we have to purify ourselves of mental defilements(emotions) and avijja. verse 243 of dhammapad says "avijja paramam malam" some saints have used the word "death", "atma shuddhi" etc. for that. i recall one verse of a saint born some 500 years ago in varanasi in india called kabir he says: "jeevan mein marna bhala jo mari jaane koy, varna pahile jo mare ajar amar so hoy." which means its good to die while living, one who knows such dying is good, the one who dies earlier in such a way, becomes immortal. now the question arises how to purify/die in such a way. ancient scriptures as well modern science both recognise that our thought and feelings are matter. one can verifiy that very easily in meditation. when we indulge in thought or feeling we are creating matter. which is called "sankhara" in pali and "sanskaar" in sanskrit. another meaning of both words is to 'make'. so all our life we are making, making and making. all that is made is accumulated and brings consequences in the form of "vipaka" which means fructification of what was made. and the process goes on our whole life. if we dont stop 'making' , this accumulation creates and furthers our misery. so obviously two things need to be done. 1) stop making 2) clean/purify what was made (sankhara) to stop making there is "only one way" that is being aware. so at whatever places we make sankhara we have to stop at that places(sense doors). satipatthana gives ample details in that regard. the main question is why buddha says in satipatthana that "ekayano ayam maggo" that is 'there is only one way'. the answer is that law of nature is such that when this making is "watched" only and "not acted upon" the sankharas are eradicated and never come again. "kheenam puranam navam natthi sambhavam" (in ratan sutta). this is called as death/nirjara/atmashuddhi/purification etc. that is by being 'aware' we eradicate what was being made(sankhara). in the law of nature there is no other way. we would discuss about that some other time, why is it so. and second thing is to purifiy/die/atma shuddhi/clean . here as well the same principle is applied. we can eradicate sankhara only by the same approach. so by being aware we do two things at one point of time. stop making new (sanvar), and cleaning the old(nirjara). and in law of nature there is no other way. i personally have worked on both of these aspects and cleared lots of old sankharas and bad childhood memories by purifying in this way. its like shift+delete in computers. it never comes back in mind even if i might try to recall. so i assume this way we can delete all sankharas of past births as well. since i had to make 'effort' to learn this, i feel in the beginning one has to make some effort. buddha has said in satipatthana "atapi sampjano satima" therefore i m not very sure that sati gets establish without making any effort. i think effort is a must in the beginning, then it becomes effortless automatically. may be for some other people it might be effortless but at present not for me, so i have no option but to try. that is why in another post i asked whether anyone knows any other way i would be glad to learn, because this process is very difficult for me. i would be glad if i m pointed out for any misunderstanding in my logic or interpretation. that was one of the reasons i wrote in such detail. with metta and regards nidhi #71099 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:19 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... hi sarah yes i agree with u that "I"ness and desire for sati, and attachment for sati must not happen for sati to be pure. but for effort i have posted my comments in another post. i m sorry thats a bit detailed one but i need to be clear intellectually. with metta nidhi #71100 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. nilovg Dear James, The words disturbed and undisturbed need explanation. In this context is meant by disturbed: a negative reaction, having aversion, and this is akusala. One loves oneself so much and dislikes it to see oneself full of defilements. Do you get it? But no need to asnwer. Nina. Op 25-apr-2007, om 17:18 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > One is not supposed to "rest content" until the utter destruction of > the cankers. Therefore, one is not supposed to be "undisturbed" by > one's defilements. Wisdom is being disturbed by one's defilements, > not being undisturbed. #71101 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Perfections N, no 18 nilovg Dear Dieter, you have a good question. This is a difficult passage and it has several interpretations. I quote part of the Co translated by Ven soma (the Way of mindfulness): -------------------------- <"Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]. Preliminary practice connected with the mundane path of mindfulness is pointed out by the commentator here. "In this world." In just this body. Here the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing crumbling. As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness, and mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of clinging are the world." Covetousness stands for sense desire; and grief, for anger. As sense desire and anger are the principal hindrances, the abandoning of the hindrances is stated by the overcoming of covetousness and grief. With covetousness are abandoned the satisfaction rooted in bodily happiness, delight in the body, and the falling into erroneous opinion which takes as real the unreal beauty, pleasure, permanence and substantiality of the body. With the overcoming of grief are abandoned the discontent rooted in bodily misery, the non-delight in the culture of body-contemplation, and the desire to turn away from facing the real ugliness, suffering, impermanence and insubstantiality of the body. By the instruction dealing with the overcoming of covetousness and grief, yogic power and yogic skill are shown. Yogic power is the power of meditation. Yogic skill is dexterity in yoking oneself in meditation. Freedom from satisfaction and discontent in regard to bodily happiness and misery, the forbearing from delighting in the body, the bearing-up of non-delight in the course of body-contemplation, the state of being not captivated by the unreal, and the state of not running away from the real — these, when practiced produce yogic power; and the ability to practice these is yogic skill. ------- N: As we discussed meditation has several meanings. Not running away from the real is to be remembered, I think. Of course this leaves room too for those who have skills to develop jhaana. There is a difference to be noted: one has accumulated the skill for calm which is temporary freedom from the hindrnaces. Or: one clings to an idea of tranquillity, but does not know that true calm means freedom from defilements, detachment, not clinging. But I believe that one should scrutinize one's citta all the time: is there desire to prepare oneself for satipatthana in order to have a quicker result? This may be motivated by lobha or by wrong view of self. One does not accept that there is no self who can bring about sati. ----------- Nina. Op 25-apr-2007, om 18:42 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > how then does that fit with the Maha Satipatthana Sutta , which > starts ( after the introduction) with: > 'There , the monk dwells in contemplation of the body, the > feelings , the mind , and the mind objects, ardent , clearly > conscious and attentive , after putting away wordly greed and grief' > or more general the need of putting away respectively lessen the 5 > hindrances /Nivarana? #71102 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:11 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,151 Vism.XVII,152 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 151. 'The least decads the first has got respectively are three or two': together with the rebirth-linking consciousness that is mixed with materiality and comes first in the pair 'mixed and unmixed', there arise, at the least, the two decads (see Ch. XVIII,5f.) of physical basis and body, or else the three decads of physical basis, body, and sex. There is no reducing materiality below that. 152. But when that minimal amount arises in the two kinds of generation termed egg-born and womb-born, it amounts to no more than a drop of cream of ghee on a single fibre of new-born [kid's] wool, and it is known as the 'embryo in the first stage' (S.i,206). ********************** 151. dve vaa tayo vaa dasakaa omato aadinaa sahaati ya.m hetamettha ``missa.m amissa´´nti duke aadibhuuta.m ruupamissa.m pa.tisandhivi~n~naa.na.m, tena saha vatthukaayadasakavasena dve vaa, vatthukaayabhaavadasakavasena tayo vaa dasakaa omato uppajjanti, natthi ito para.m ruupaparihaaniiti. 152. ta.m paneta.m eva.m omakaparimaa.na.m uppajjamaana.m a.n.dajajalaabujanaamikaasu dviisu yoniisu jaatiu.n.naaya ekena a.msunaa uddha.tasappima.n.dappamaa.na.m kalalanti laddhasa"nkha.m hutvaa uppajjati. #71103 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear James, > The words disturbed and undisturbed need explanation. James: Actually, what would be more helpful is if you could quote for me where the Buddha teaches what you are saying. I keep asking for this and you keep wiggling away from doing it. In this context > is meant by disturbed: a negative reaction, having aversion, and this > is akusala. James: As I have pointed out, being disturbed by one's defilements is not akusala, it is kusala. Being disturbed by one's defilements, as hard as this is for you to accept/understand, is wholesome. Nina, I am getting really tired of repeating myself in this regard. From the Abhidhamma: Shame of evil (hiri) and fear of evil (ottappa) These are both WHOLESOME mental factors as presented in the Abhidhamma. And they are both AVERSION!!! AVERSION TO EVIL!! I hate to be shouting at an older lady like yourself, but nothing else seems to be working. One loves oneself so much and dislikes it to see oneself > full of defilements. Do you get it? James: This is not correct. Do you get it?? But no need to asnwer. James: Oh no, I am going to keep hammering away at this until we reach agreement or until my dying day, whichever comes first. > Nina. Metta, James #71104 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Dear Howard, > > If someone belives in kamma and rebirth how could they be a torturer- > > murderer of infants. At the least knowing they are soon destined for > > the prolonged tortures of hell must spoil their fun.. > > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't at all think these could not co-exist in the same fevered > mind. Humans are quite capable of holding apparently incompatible notions. Hitler, > BTW, held many mystical and magical beliefs, it is said, and it wouldn't > suprise me that he held a belief in rebirth and even kamma. For him, "killing > monsterous subhumans such as Jews to save the Master Race would be nothing but > heroic and deserving of reward!" At present there are people in the world who > believe in murder of some people as a good deed that will send them into the > arms of 72 virgins in some heaven world. Don't put so much stock in beliefs, > Robert! They're not worth a thing, ================ Dear Howard We may have a different outlook on what right view and wrong view are. I take it from the examples above that you think that someone who thinks kiiling will lead them to heaven has right view about kamma and rebirth. However, by my interpretation of the Buddhist texts they have wrong view. And that wrong view, even without them doing any killing, is sufficient to cause them to be reborn in hell. Robert #71105 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:17 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" < > > James: As I have pointed out, being disturbed by one's defilements is > not akusala, it is kusala. Being disturbed by one's defilements, as > hard as this is for you to accept/understand, is wholesome. Nina, I > am getting really tired of repeating myself in this regard. From the > Abhidhamma: > > Shame of evil (hiri) and fear of evil (ottappa) > > These are both WHOLESOME mental factors as presented in the > Abhidhamma. And they are both AVERSION!!! AVERSION TO EVIL!! > >======== Dear James Do hiri and ottappa come with pleasant, neutral or unpleasant feeling? Robert #71106 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Atta views: suffering and/or happiness egberdina Hi Sarah, On 25/04/07, sarah abbott wrote: > > .... > S: If we take the computer to be a 'substantial thing' that exists, that > lasts longer than a finger-snap, then there is atta belief as I see it. > I am happy for you to say that is your belief. It leads me to think that either you see atta as something different from soul, or that you do not actually believe what you say you believe. I have to ask, why did you address this post to Herman, if Herman is something that has come and gone before you have snapped your fingers? Clearly you write to Herman because you believe Herman is there as something that endures. Now, I do appreciate that neither the computer or Herman are things and perhaps your emphasis was on thing. But the computer and Herman are processes, and certainly those processes have continuity and identity. Herman is a different process to Sarah, and we are both identifiable as such. > This does not mean that there is atta-ditthi every-time we think about, > read about or fix computers. Rest-assured, a sotapanna can still work all > day with computers, but with no illusion that what is ever experienced is > anything other that sights, sounds, tangible objects experienced through > the senses and ideas about these. > > I liked this comment of Ken H's: > > "While we are going about our daily lives, fleeting, soulless mental and > physical phenomena(cittas, cetasikas and rupas) are arising, performing > their functions and falling away. It is by learning about these - and, > eventually, knowing them directly - that perfect morality and wisdom > are accomplished." It seems to me that if you and Ken have no difficulties with the identity of a soulless flux of cittas, rupas and the like, then your difficulty with the identity of soulless computers, Sarah and Herman seems to me unfounded. > > So we continue going about our daily lives as usual, but with less and > less delusion about atta in one of its many guises as I see it. Only people without a capacity for memory, like amnesiacs or Alzheimers sufferers live in a world without continuity. If you would like to praise these amnesiac states as being less deluded, be my guest. In the meantime, I continue to read atta-belief as a belief in a soul, an enduring, substantial agent that is itself not subject to change. Herman #71107 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/25/07 9:16:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > ================ > Dear Howard > We may have a different outlook on what right view and wrong view > are. I take it from the examples above that you think that someone > who thinks kiiling will lead them to heaven has right view about > kamma and rebirth. > However, by my interpretation of the Buddhist texts they have wrong > view. And that wrong view, even without them doing any killing, is > sufficient to cause them to be reborn in hell. > ============================= My claim was not that Hitler and terrorists have right views. My point was that beliefs alone do not determine actions. There are people who understand what is true, but who simply do not care because they want what they want and that takes precedence for them. And there are people who have wrong views, but act properly anyway because of lovingkindness and compassion. This is a simple fact. With metta, Howard #71108 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Virtue egberdina Hi Phil or anyon else, On 25/04/07, Phil wrote: > I know that Phil tends to not reply to fanmail :-), but could anyone clarify the following: "Life is swept away, brief is our span of year, there are > no shelters for one who has reached old age. Perceiving the peril > that lurks in death, perform good deeds that entail happiness. When > one is restrained in body, restrained by speech and by mind, the > deeds of merit one did while alive bring happiness when one departs." What is the peril that lurks in death? Herman #71109 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. buddhatrue Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > >======== > Dear James > Do hiri and ottappa come with pleasant, neutral or unpleasant feeling? > Robert > What do you think? Are shame and fear pleasant, neutral or unpleasant feelings? Metta, James #71110 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > >======== > > Dear James > > Do hiri and ottappa come with pleasant, neutral or unpleasant feeling? > > Robert > > > > What do you think? Are shame and fear pleasant, neutral or unpleasant > feelings? > > Metta, > James Dear James, Hiri and Ottappa are mental factors that arise with kusala citta and hence they always arise only with pleasant or neutral feeling. I am not sure what mental factors you are thinking of with shame and fear, do you have the pali terms? Robert #71111 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. egberdina Hi RobK, On 26/04/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > Dear James, > Hiri and Ottappa are mental factors that arise with kusala citta and > hence they always arise only with pleasant or neutral feeling. > What would you say about the citta of our samurai friend, who with skillful precision and equanimity, slices off the head of his opponent? Kusala citta? Herman #71112 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Robert) - In a message dated 4/25/07 11:13:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > What do you think? Are shame and fear pleasant, neutral or unpleasant > feelings? ========================== IMO, shame at having been immoral and fear of being so are unpleasant, and they are also kusala. On the other hand, blood lust can be quite pleasant and is akusala. That's what I believe to be the case. So, what is to be inferred from that? I would say that one cannot judge the moral character of a state or action based on felt pleasantness or unpleasantness. Jack the Ripper may well have been one happy fella! ;-) With metta, Howard #71113 From: "colette" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:10 pm Subject: He drove that one right onto the Green ksheri3 Herman, I must say, TOUCHE. You've obviously caught this one off guard. Who knows where those IDOL hands may've been. ;-) No slice involved at all, you made that ball a ROCKET, a straight shot. Wonderful positioning. Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. Posted by: "Herman Hofman" hhofmeister@... egberdina Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:46 pm (PST) Hi RobK, On 26/04/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > Dear James, > Hiri and Ottappa are mental factors that arise with kusala citta and > hence they always arise only with pleasant or neutral feeling. > ***What would you say about the citta of our samurai friend, who with skillful precision and equanimity, slices off the head of his opponent? Kusala citta?*** toodles, colette #71114 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. buddhatrue Hi Howard and Rob K., > > What do you think? Are shame and fear pleasant, neutral or unpleasant > ========================== > IMO, shame at having been immoral and fear of being so are unpleasant, > and they are also kusala. On the other hand, blood lust can be quite pleasant > and is akusala. That's what I believe to be the case. So, what is to be > inferred from that? I would say that one cannot judge the moral character of a > state or action based on felt pleasantness or unpleasantness. Jack the Ripper may > well have been one happy fella! ;-) This is a very complicated matter which I think that Rob K. is oversimplifying with his question. Vedana (feeling) is not the way to determine if a consciousness is wholesome or unwholesome; actually, the majority of unwholesome cittas are accompanied by a pleasant feeling, not an unpleasant feeling (Jack the Ripper probably was a happy fella!). Hiri and Ottappa, in and of themselves, are accompanied by a pleasant feeling. When one has shame and fear of doing a moral evil, and consequently doesn't do any evil, then of course the mental feeling is one of happiness. One can rest at ease that virtue is kept intact. However, as soon as one does evil, then there is discordance in the mind which is not a pleasant feeling…it is aversion to having done evil (if Hiri and Ottappa are intact). But the main point is that one is not supposed to be accepting of greed, anger, and hatred- not in their subtle forms or their gross forms. KS is teaching the opposite of what the Buddha teaches. Here is a good article about Hiri and Ottappa: http://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/Part4_4.htm Metta, James #71115 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Virtue TGrand458@... Hi Herman In a message dated 4/25/2007 9:00:25 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: Hi Phil or anyon else, On 25/04/07, Phil <_philco777@..._ (mailto:philco777@...) > wrote: > I know that Phil tends to not reply to fanmail :-), but could anyone clarify the following: "Life is swept away, brief is our span of year, there are > no shelters for one who has reached old age. Perceiving the peril > that lurks in death, perform good deeds that entail happiness. When > one is restrained in body, restrained by speech and by mind, the > deeds of merit one did while alive bring happiness when one departs." What is the peril that lurks in death? Herman TG: Death itself is considered an affliction/dukkha. Also, rebirth into states that are worse than where one is now is a possible peril... Hell, hungry ghost, animal, disfigured, severely poor, etc. According to the suttas, such a birth is more likely than a "good birth." Therefore, good deeds tend to avoid many such perils. The above quote is apparently setting up a "lack of virtue" vs "virtue" scenario. That's my take. TG #71116 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... > ============================= > My claim was not that Hitler and terrorists have right views. My point > was that beliefs alone do not determine actions. There are people who > understand what is true, but who simply do not care because they want what they want > and that takes precedence for them. And there are people who have wrong views, > but act properly anyway because of lovingkindness and compassion. This is a > simple fact. >_______________ Dear Howard Ok, I am a bit slow on understanding, please be patient. In your example above -"At present there are people in the world who believe in murder of some people as a good deed that will send them into the arms of 72 virgins in some heaven world. Don't put so much stock in beliefs,""- I would have thought their belief is a determining factor. If they didn't have that belief would they still murder? Robert #71117 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi RobK, > > On 26/04/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > > > Dear James, > > Hiri and Ottappa are mental factors that arise with kusala citta and > > hence they always arise only with pleasant or neutral feeling. > > > > What would you say about the citta of our samurai friend, who with > skillful precision and equanimity, slices off the head of his > opponent? Kusala citta? > Dear Herman, At the moment of killing a being there is always dosa mula citta (citta rooted in aversion) and this always comes with unpleasant feeling. However, cittas are changing rapidly- immediately before that the samurai could have citta rooted in greed (which is also akusala - but it comes with neutral or pleasant feeling). I hope I didnt give the impression that all pleasant feeling is kusala. This is of course not so, as all craving, clinging and lust comes with pleasant or neutral feeling. However, I had the idea that James thought hiri and otappa come with aversion (dosa) and are unpleasant. I see James now says that he knows hiri and otappa associates with pleasant/neutral feeling so my point was superfluous anyway. robert #71118 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > IMO, shame at having been immoral and fear of being so are unpleasant, > and they are also kusala. ____________ Dear Howard, This belief is in conflict with the Abhidhamma. Only painful bodily feeling or dosa mula citta (citta rooted in aversion) have unpleasant feeling. And dosa mula citta is akusala. Robert #71119 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? kenhowardau > > 'If someone belives in kamma and rebirth how could they be a torturer- > murderer of infants. At the least knowing they are soon destined for > the prolonged tortures of hell must spoil their fun..' > > Hi Rob K, This might tie in with some previous conversations you and I have been having. You think that I tend to overlook valuable conventional stories. I can't see the value in thinking, "If I perform serious misdeeds I will go to hell." Where is belief in kamma and vipaka at the time of such thinking? Wouldn't it more likely be an instance of atta belief? I think that belief in kamma and vipaka can be as simple as believing that good deeds have pleasant results and bad deeds have unpleasant results. As for stories of immoral beings going to hell (any beings, let alone me!); well, I don't find them at all helpful in their own right. But I do find them helpful as descriptions of the dhammas that are the real kamma and vipaka. Some people might protest that I am watering down kamma and vipaka by removing the concept of justice. Justice can be seen in the idea, "Aha, he committed evil deeds and now he is paying the price - hooray!" But I think it is enough to know there dhammas that are kamma and there are dhammas that are vipaka, and the two are linked by conditions. The Buddha said we are the "heirs to our deeds." I take that to mean no more than that the present citta (whatever it is) contains the conditions by which the results of countless good and bad deeds (or should I say "wills?") can eventually come to fruition. Every vipaka citta is a distribution from the executor of one of those wills. :-) Ken H #71120 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:27 pm Subject: Re: best wishes to all dsgmods All, Nidhi sent this message to the mods account to share with everyone. We hope we can encourage a re-think and we'll ask Nidhi to look out for replies on list. J & S. ................................ -Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:25:04 PM dear friends i have left the group, as i think i must find people who have similar views as mine. however there are some poeple here who give importance to practice as well theory, for them i would say that whatever i wrote about panchupadan khanda in anatta post , and about sati as well was what i saw in meditation. and i m sharing this information for the sole purpose of encouraging others who believe in practice. every one can verify buddha's words within oneself. if we dont understand what is clining in my mind, what is its movement, where clinging arises, at what moment clinging arises we cannot be free of clinging. i would continue working this way only. thanks a lot for being kind and nice to me. with whomsoever i communicated here was nice with me. best wishes for u all, may all beings beings happy, may all come out of misery. nidhi #71121 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:17 pm Subject: The River of Energetic Effort! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the Four and very Best Right Efforts? The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, there are these four right efforts. What four? Here, Bhikkhus: 1: One generates desire for the non-emergence of yet unarisen evil detrimental mental states, one makes an effort, one arouses energy, one redirects the mind, and one strives enthusiastically for that... 2: One generates desire for the quick elimination of already arisen evil detrimental states, one makes an effort, one arouses energy, one redirects the mind, and one strives enthusiastically for that... 3: One generates desire for arising of yet unarisen advantageous mental states, one makes an effort, one arouses energy, redirects the mind, and one strives enthusiastically for these good states... 4: One generates desire for the fixed maintenance of already arisen advantageous states, for their non-decay, increase, expansion, and fulfilment by development, one makes an effort, one arouses energy, one redirects the mind, and one strives enthusiastically in this... These are the four right efforts! Bhikkhus, just as the river Ganges slants, slopes, & inclines towards the East, similarly does a Bhikkhu who develops and cultivates these Four Right Efforts slants, slopes, and inclines towards NibbÄ?na. Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. Book [V:244] section 49: The 4 Efforts. 1: River Ganges. More on Right Effort! http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/What_is_Right_Effort.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Avoiding_Effort.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Energetic_Effort.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #71122 From: "cultry1" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:21 am Subject: The Buddha's Path cultry1 Dear Nina, Where can I find this text of yous? Metta Claudia #71123 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path nilovg Dear Claudia, this is the link: < http://www.zolag.co.uk/> and it is under downloads. He rearranged his site and you may have difficulty. I write to him. Nina. Op 26-apr-2007, om 9:21 heeft cultry1 het volgende geschreven: > Where can I find this text of yous? #71124 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Atta views: suffering and/or happiness upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Sarah) - In a message dated 4/25/07 10:06:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > In the meantime, I continue to read atta-belief as a belief in a soul, > an enduring, substantial agent that is itself not subject to change. > ========================== Is not the alleged soul of anything an unchanging essence, core, or identity in that thing - it's self? Why apply the notion of atta only to the conglomerate that is the conventional person? When the Buddha says "Sabbe dhamma anatta," if 'anatta' doesn't mean "without self" in the aforementioned general sense, doesn't the Buddha's statement become odd in many cases? Is it surprising or novel that hardness has no soul in the sense of an unchanging, eternal animating spirit? Is it deep that an itch is without a soul? That water is? On the other hand, anatta in the sense of being empty of own being IS deep, and it applies to dhammas and to the conventional person alike. With metta, Howard #71125 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Falling in Love? sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: S:> No one has ever pointed out the danger of attachment and all kinds of > akusala to me as she has done. This, however, is quite different from > taking it for being one's own and being disturbed by it, wishing it > otherwise or hating it. That was the point of the comments you > referred to. Indeed, it is only with understanding and detachment (or > equanimity as Scott stressed) that akusala and evil of all kinds will > truly be seen for what it is. Minding about it, clinging to oneself > and one's character never sees it with detachment." > > James: What you have written here seems nice and agreeable…even > sweet….but after much consideration I have to tell you that I just > don't buy it!! (Get yourself prepared for a storm…:-) .... S: Thank you for your following well-considered and heart-felt comments (snipped for now). Leaving aside for now what anyone has said or been quoting as saying or believing, can we just step back a little and see where any difference in our approaches/understanding is? I'll be keeping your comments about the VT shooter in mind and we can link back to this later, having agreed the common basics first. So firstly, tell me if any of this is wrong: 1. We both believe that Greed, Hatred and Ignorance are unwholesome or 'bad'. We can even use the word 'ugly' here. 2. The greed, hatred and ignorance which is of such a gross kind as to inflict harm on others is very bad, very ugly indeed. 3. More subtle kinds of greed, hatred and ignorance which may not even be noticed by ourselves or others are also bad, ugly. 4. A sotapanna no longer has such gross greed, hatred and ignorance as to break the precepts, but continues to have plenty of the subtler varieties. 5. So even though all kinds of greed, hatred and ignorance are bad or unwholesome(akusala in Pali), there are likely to be conditions for gross defilements (kilesa) to arise (if not in this lifetime, then in future lifetimes) as long as we are not sotapannas. There will also definitely be conditions for subtler defilements to arise very, very often in a day. They may be arising even now as we discuss the Dhamma. ***** Pls humour me a little and let me know if there is any disagreement so far. If not, I'd like to proceed and assure you that I will attempt to tie in all your points which I've saved. Metta, Sarah ======== #71126 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:48 am Subject: what must we slay to live happily nilovg Dear James, ---------- J: I hate to be shouting at an older lady like yourself, but nothing else seems to be working. ------- N: ha, ha, ha. I should not shout at a young lad. But in earnest, let us analyse this. Your points are important and have far-reaching consequences. There is a problem with regard to language and the way certain Pali terms are translated into English. -------- J: James: As I have pointed out, being disturbed by one's defilements is not akusala, it is kusala. ... From the Abhidhamma: Shame of evil (hiri) and fear of evil (ottappa) These are both WHOLESOME mental factors as presented in the Abhidhamma. And they are both AVERSION!!! AVERSION TO EVIL!! --------- N: Let us talk about aversion. There are many forms of dosa, usually translated as hate. It can be violence, but also a slight notion of uneasiness is dosa. I use the term aversion for dosa. Whenever the citta dislikes an object there is dosa. It may be slight or strong. The feeling that goes with it is always unpleasant feeling. By the feeling we can be warned that there is dosa, a negative quality. As you have understood, hiri and ottappa are positive qualities, they are wholesome. It is difficult to have good English translations of these, since shame may imply unwholesome aversion. When one sees the danger and disadvantage of akusala there are hiri and ottappa, as you know. There cannot be dosa with unpleasant feeling at such moments. -------- James: Actually, what would be more helpful is if you could quote for me where the Buddha teaches what you are saying. I keep asking for this and you keep wiggling away from doing it. --------- N: There are enough suttas where the Buddha tells us that akusala leads to harm both for oneself and for others. We have to agree first what is kusala and what is akusala. 'Being disturbed by one's defilements' implies a kind of self-hate. This is conditioned by clinging to oneself and by ignorance. This is what Kh Sujin meant in the quoted context. But you can also read this differently: having a sense of urgency to develop the Path leading to the end of defilements. Another context. Certainly this is to be approved by everybody. ---------- J: quote: >N: One loves oneself so much and dislikes it to see oneself > full of defilements. Do you get it? James: This is not correct. Do you get it?? Oh no, I am going to keep hammering away at this until we reach agreement or until my dying day, whichever comes first. -------- N: I will also keep hammering away at this, but after my trip. You may remind me, don't forget. Meanwhile Larry is waiting for me with the Visuddhimagga texts. Some work to finish. Nina. #71127 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue sarahprocter... Dear Robert A, --- Robert wrote: > I have never questioned the value of seeing things arise and pass > away, but have always felt I needed certain practices to make it > possible for me to do that - I needed a training, and the practice > of virtue was an important part of that training. It was to ask the > opinion of the other members of this group on this question that I > began this thread. .... S: I sympathise with the frustration(?) you and others find when reading what seems to you like a lack of 'practices' or 'training' to 'do' anything. You mentioned many good qualities that you reflect on and your posts are full of consideration and kindness too. What brings about an increase in virtue (of any kind) if it's not a reflection and understanding of its value? For example, you mentioned that you have the book "Metta". On its first page, we read about how conceit is an obstacle for metta. When there is conceit we fly a banner and find ourselves so importance. At such times, there is no kindness or concern for others at all. Does this mean we should sit quietly and try to have more metta or does it mean that whilst we are with family, friends or strangers we can become mor familiar with the qualities of metta and conceit? By appreciating the great value of the former and the harm of the latter, is it not a condition for metta to develop? Isn't it also true that we usually assume that various virtuous qualities such as metta are part of a person's character. "Oh, he/she's so kind...." and so on. In fact, by learning and considering that there are merely dhammas that arise and fall away, there is a growing appreciation that such qualities do not belong to anyone. There is no purpose in clinging or being averse to such impermanent dhammas. Again, I think that such (wise) reflection and understanding of apparent qualities for what they are is a condition for the 'good' to develop and the 'bad' to be seen for what they are. So, reflecting on dhammas during the course of a day and much more to the point, being aware of such dhammas when they arise is practice, is what the Buddha recommended. This is why he taught about such dhammas for 45 years and why it was possible for people to become enlightened, 'fully pracitice' on the spot. In this sense, I rather agree with Herman's comments that the Dhamma or dhammas are not in the book, are not in the Tipitaka. They are the impermanent namas and rupas which make up our life now as we speak. This is why Ken H and others have been stressing that if there is no practice now, there cannot be practice at another time. There only ever is this moment and the dhamma appearing now. Robert, I know you are inclined to cool-off and reflect on what you've heard. I would however be glad to hear where you get lost/disagree with the above. I think it would be helpful for everyone including me. In other words, please 'hang around' for the benefit of all and a chance to develop patience:). The discussion I'm having with James ('Falling in Love') may also be relevant. Metta, Sarah ========== #71128 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:05 am Subject: Re: Self and Other (Re: [dsg] what is sati sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Howard, Lodewijk & all, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > As to, there is no person, I read to Lodewijk a passage from the > Netti, the Guide (p. 96). The Thai translation I have is clearer. It > has instead of 'there is the Perfected One', 'there is a being > (satta)'. ... S: You may also like to look at p233 in the Guide and its footnote: Text: "[The question] 'Is there (atthi) a Perfect One (tathaagata)? is answerable.* [The question] 'Is there form?' is answerable. [The question] <'[Is] a Perfect One form?> (S. iv, 383) is unanswerable; [the question] 'Does a Perfect One possess form?' is unanswerable; [the question] <'Is] a Perfect One in form'. (S. iv, 383) is unanswerable; [the question] '[Is] form a Perfect One?' is unanswerable. Likewise (for)'Is there feeling.....perception....determinations....consciousness......' " ... *[note]: The question 'atthi tathaagato?' = 'atthi satto?' (Netti A, p.220); also 'This person (aayasmaa) is describable thus by an assumption based on the 5 categories as named so-and-so, of such-and-such family, and this, since it refers to that so-described person, in answerable' (p.220). 'Person' is otherwise called an 'avijjamaana-pa~n~natti' (PugA, i.e., 'description in terms of non-factual'), the categories, etc., being 'vijjamaana-pa~n~natti' (description in terms of the factual'). Cf. S. iv, 52." Metta, Sarah ***** N:> there is no being (uccheda di.t.thi, annihilation belief), that there > is a being nor that there is not (eternalism and annihilation > belief), a being is not permanent nor is a being void (eelwriggling > or endless equivocation, amaraavikkhepa vaada), but he knows that he > comes to be considered as profound, immeasurable, incalculable, > quenched, because of exhaustion of lust, of hate, of delusion.> <...> H:> > or, more > > precisely, that there is only the convention of persons. It does no > > harm to say this > > at all, so long as it is also understood that the basis for the > > convention of > > a person really exists, namely the underlying flow of interconnected > > experiential phenomena (dhammas). #71129 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:20 am Subject: Re: what must we slay to live happily buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: 'Being disturbed by one's > defilements' implies a kind of self-hate. This is conditioned by > clinging to oneself and by ignorance. This is what Kh Sujin meant in > the quoted context. We cannot go futher with this issue until you define what you mean by "self hate". I do not believe that there is any such thing as "self hate". As the Buddha taught, we ALL hold ourselves dear. It doesn't do any good to talk about imaginary concerns and issues. Having aversion toward the defilements, or wanting to rid oneself of defilements, is not "self hate", it is wisdom. Metta, James #71130 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] what is enlightenment sarahprocter... Hi Nidhi, Hope you read this! --- wisdomcompassion wrote: > hi sarah > thanks for ur post. i stay in india. and i was interested in dhamma > for a long period, but didnt know from where to start, attending a > vipassana course gave me direction, (i would say). ... S: I'm interested to hear more about your study and practice. .... > regarding ur post, i doubt it constitues only wisdom. there would be > something other that happens to mind. or may be mind doesnt exist in > that state. but frankly speaking i dont know what is it. ... S: We were discussing what enlightenment is. Yes, as you point out not only wisdom is involved. All the enlightenment factors are involved. The enlightenment consciousness is accompanied by all these dhammas (bodhipakkhiya dhammas)and at such a time nibbana is experienced. So this wisdom which realises the 4 Noble Truths does so by way of the 4 applications of mindfulness, i.e. the 4 right efforts, the 4 bases of success, the 5 faculties, the 5 powers, the 7 factors of enlightenment and the 8 Path factors which accompany the enlightenment consciousness. There is always consciousness/mind arising. At the moment of enlightenment it is referred to as supramundane consciousness (lokuttara citta). I'd be happy to discuss this further or give you references if it helps. Does this conform to your understanding about enlightenment? Metta, Sarah ====== #71131 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Falling in Love? buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > So firstly, tell me if any of this is wrong: > > 1. We both believe that Greed, Hatred and Ignorance are unwholesome or > 'bad'. We can even use the word 'ugly' here. > > 2. The greed, hatred and ignorance which is of such a gross kind as to > inflict harm on others is very bad, very ugly indeed. > > 3. More subtle kinds of greed, hatred and ignorance which may not even be > noticed by ourselves or others are also bad, ugly. > > 4. A sotapanna no longer has such gross greed, hatred and ignorance as to > break the precepts, but continues to have plenty of the subtler varieties. > > 5. So even though all kinds of greed, hatred and ignorance are bad or > unwholesome(akusala in Pali), there are likely to be conditions for gross > defilements (kilesa) to arise (if not in this lifetime, then in future > lifetimes) as long as we are not sotapannas. There will also definitely be > conditions for subtler defilements to arise very, very often in a day. > They may be arising even now as we discuss the Dhamma. > ***** > > Pls humour me a little and let me know if there is any disagreement so > far. If not, I'd like to proceed and assure you that I will attempt to tie > in all your points which I've saved. I don't have any significant disagreements with what you have written here (except that Sotapanna don't ever break precepts...because I haven't seen a sutta which states that specifically, only commentaries.) Metta, James #71132 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:38 am Subject: Orgasm egberdina Hi Sarah, On 26/04/07, sarah abbott wrote: > > ... > S: We were discussing what enlightenment is. > If you know the experience of enlightenment, by all means, speak up. If, on the other hand, it's only something you've heard about, frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. Herman #71133 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Sorry for the delay. H: "If it was existentialist, would that be reason to accept or reject it? Can you clarify this?" Scott: Nothing personal, Herman. Its my own thing: I don't want to discuss anything but Dhamma. You might consider the response I attempted to James, who asked why I am reading in DSG. H: "I mean no more than the meanings of things doesn't inhere in the things themselves. The meanings of things are given by you and me and everybody else, according to our very basic beliefs and aspirations. How we act in the world, or what we understand a book to be saying, is not because the world is insisting on this action, or the book is insisting on that meaning, but they reveal to us our innermost tendencies. Something like bhavanga citta." Scott: Let me see if I'm getting you: 'The meaning of things', then, would be that which one thinks about a thing, is this it? In the world, 'basic beliefs and aspirations' would be one definition (or perhaps set of aspects) of self. When you mention 'innermost tendencies', you link actions and understanding to these entities. Is this correct? Is this dhammaa? You suggest a dynamic interaction between action and understanding on the one hand, and an apparently underlying structure consisting of basic beliefs and aspirations. You suggest that this underlying structure can be revealed by the way one acts or understands things. I can't quite follow the comparison to bhavanga citta. Can you clarify this? I'm not aware that bhavanga citta reveals anything. Pa~n~na may serve a function like this, depending on what you are meaning to say. Meaning doesn't inhere in a thing. Things (dhammaa) have characteristics - or are equivalent to the characteristic inherent in them. I think we are discussing naama when we are discussing meaning. H: "No, I don't actually know what you mean, sorry. Are you saying that the opposite is true, that in studying a text you arrive at it's objective, absolute meaning?" Scott: Who knows what I wind up saying. I think I'm saying that the text describes realities but is only a text. I think this is what you are saying as well. I'm saying that some correspondence exists between the textual descriptions of realities and the realities themselves. I'm saying that there is Dhamma. I'm saying, given that these texts reflect the teachings of a Buddha (Dhamma), and given that these teachings were taught in one way (that is, are what they are and not otherwise), I assume the existence of Truth defined as what a Buddha taught (Dhamma). This I define as Dhamma, and here we seem to diverge. Dhamma, the teachings of a Buddha, are thus and so and not otherwise and the texts, which reflect Dhamma, can be apprehended in a way which corresponds to Dhamma or they can be misunderstood. Then, I assume that the texts are in some way reflections or shadows of this truth. I don't consider them to be essentially devoid of essence or meaning (even if it is conceptual), nor do I consider meaning to be equal to that which one arrives at as meaning. I assume that the teachings are in a form which I apperceive in some way. I assume that the texts can be more or less 'perfectly' rendered and come more or less close to reflecting Truth (Dhamma) as taught by a Buddha. I assume that pa~n~na can know Truth (Dhamma). I assume that reading is like hearing and then I think of the descriptions of those at the time of the Buddha in whom, conditioned by hearing, the Path arose to various degrees. H: "I don't actually accept that Dhamma and dhammaa are different. But I do realise that some equate the tipitaka with Dhamma. I think that is a little scary, because I expect that everyone will have their own interpretation of the tipitaka, and perhaps not everyone will accept that their own reading of the tipitaka is not objective or absolute." Scott: What alternative do you suggest? How do you equate Dhamma and dhammaa? To do so, to me, is to ignore differences which exist. I still wonder to what extent you are willing to take this position of interpretive relativism, if thats what it is. Do you go so far as to say that, since the texts are subject to the whims of personal interpretation, they are then not relevant? H: "As above, Dhamma and tipitaka are not to be conflated, IMO. And to reiterate, I do not want to dissuade from studying texts. But the intent of studying texts, as in studying dhammas, is not to discover something absolute (because it isn't there). It is to discover the underlying constructing activities that are making it appear that things have this meaning, or that existence." Scott: Are you saying the Dhamma is dhammaa because Dhamma teaches about dhammaa? If so, then I think I agree (nothing like solid committment to what I'm sayin, eh? It would seem I lack trust). This is why I differentiate conventional from ultimate. Ultimate reality was taught by the Buddha. Texts and the reading of texts is not knowing ultimate reality. This is known in the moment (dhammaa) but these are real and it is reality that can be known. I'll let you sort this out. Again, please point out the flaws in my attempts and I'll try to sharpen it up. Sincerely, Scott. #71134 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Virtue avalo1968 rebirth and continued wandering in samsara. wrote: > What is the peril that lurks in death? #71135 From: connie Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:22 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (52) nichiconn dear friends, We continue from when Buddha had spoken Dhp v 347 after showing her the queen the little fast-forward show starring the other woman. "Tato kallitacitta.m ma.m, ~natvaana narasaarathi; mahaanidaana.m desesi, suttanta.m vinayaaya me. "Sutvaa suttantase.t.tha.m ta.m, pubbasa~n~namanussari.m; tattha .thitaavaha.m santii, dhammacakkhu.m visodhayi.m. "Nipatitvaa mahesissa, paadamuulamhi taavade; accaya.m desanatthaaya, ida.m vacanamabravi.m. "Namo te sabbadassaavi, namo te karu.naakara; namo te ti.n.nasa.msaara, namo te amata.m dada. "Di.t.thigahanapakkhandaa, kaamaraagavimohitaa; tayaa sammaa upaayena, viniitaa vinaye rataa. Then knowing that my mind was agreeable, the Charioteer of Men taught me the Great Discourse on Origination for the sake of my discipline. Hearing that best of discourses, I remembered the former sign [of the ageing woman], and standing there, thrilled, I purifed the eye of the Doctrine. I fell down at the feet of the Great Sage, and in order to acknowledge my fault straight away, I spoke these words: "Praise to you, All-Seeing One! Praise to you, Compassionate One! Praise to you have gone beyond continued existence; to you, the giver of the undying! "I was plunged into the thicket of wrong view, confused by the desire for sensual pleasures, but I have been trained by you through a proper means. I delight in discipline. "Adassanena vibhogaa, taadisaana.m mahesina.m; anubhonti mahaadukkha.m, sattaa sa.msaarasaagare. "Yadaaha.m lokasara.na.m, ara.na.m ara.nantagu.m; naaddasaami aduura.t.tha.m, desayaami tamaccaya.m. "Mahaahita.m varadada.m, ahitoti visa"nkitaa; nopesi.m ruupanirataa, desayaami tamaccaya.m. "Tadaa madhuranigghoso, mahaakaaru.niko jino; avoca ti.t.tha khemeti, si~ncanto amatena ma.m. "Tadaa pakamya sirasaa, katvaa ca na.m padakkhi.na.m; gantvaa disvaa narapati.m, ida.m vacanamabravi.m. "Beings are without pleasure because of not seeing such great sages, and they experience great pain in the ocean of continued existence. "When that Refuge of the World who is free from passion, who has overcome death, was standing not far away, I did not see. I confess that fault. "Suspicious, I did not accept the Great Friend, the Best of Givers, saying, 'He is my enemy.' I delighted in my beauty. I confess that fault." Then the One of Sweet Speech, the One of Great Sympathy, the Conqueror, sprinkling me with the undying, said, "Stand, Khemaa." Then bowing down head first, I went around him, keeping him on the right. When I saw the king, I said these words: "Aho sammaa upaayo te, cintitoyamarindama; vanadassanakaamaaya, di.t.tho nibbaanato muni. "Yadi te ruccate raaja, saasane tassa taadino; pabbajissaami ruupeha.m, nibbinnaa munivaa.ninaa. "A~njali.m paggahetvaana, tadaaha sa mahiipati; anujaanaami te bhadde, pabbajjaa tava sijjhatu. "Pabbajitvaa tadaa caaha.m, addhamaase upa.t.thite; diipodaya~nca bheda~nca, disvaa sa.mviggamaanasaa. "Nibbinnaa sabbasa"nkhaare, paccayaakaarakovidaa; caturoghe atikkamma, arahattamapaapu.ni.m. "O victorious one, a proper means was thought of by you. I was desirous of seeing the wood, but I have seen the Sage who is quenched. "If you please, O king, I will go forth in the teaching of that Unique One. I am disenchanted with beauty because of the utterance of the Sage." Then the king paid respects to me with raised hands together and said, "I permit you, noble lady. May your going forth be succesful." I went forth then, and after half a month had passed, I saw the arising of a lamp and its modification [as it burned]. Then my mind was agitated, and I was disenchanted with all continued existence. I understood the division of causes. I had gone beyond the four floods. I attained Arahatship. #71136 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:07 am Subject: Conditions, Preface , no 2. nilovg Dear friends, We cannot understand the "Paììhåna'' if we do not know the difference between what is real in conventional sense and what is real in the ultimate sense. Body and mind are real in conventional sense, they are not real in the ultimate sense. What we call body and mind are temporary combinations of different realities which arise because of conditioning factors and then fall away immediately. They are succeeded by new realities which fall away again, and thus the flux of life goes on. Body, mind, person or being do not exist in the ultimate sense. Mental phenomena, nåma, and physical phenomena, rúpa, which constitute what we call a "person'' are real in the ultimate sense, but they are merely passing phenomena. Ultimate truth is not abstract. Ultimate realities, in Påli: paramattha dhammas, have each their own characteristic which cannot be changed. We may change the name, but the characteristic remains the same. Seeing is an ultimate reality, it experiences visible object which appears through the eyes; it is real for everyone, it has its own unalterable characteristic. Anger has its own characteristic, it is real for everyone, no matter how we name it. Ultimate realities can be directly experienced when they appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. They arise because of their appropriate conditions. There are twenty-four classes of conditions enumerated in the "Paììhåna''. In order to understand these it is essential to have a precise knowledge of the realities which are involved in these conditional relations. The Dhammasaògaùí, the first book of the Abhidhamma, is an analytical exposition of all classes of consciousness, cittas, and their accompanying mental factors, cetasikas, and all physical phenomena, rúpas. The Dhammasaògaùí explains which cetasikas accompany which cittas and it deals with conditions which operate in one moment of consciousness [1]. It explains which rúpas arise together in a group and the factors which produce rúpas, namely, kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature. However, it does not describe in detail the different types of conditions. The Paììhåna describes in detail all possible relations between phenomena. Each reality in our life can only occur because of a concurrence of different conditions which operate in a very intricate way. --------- footnote: [1]There is only one citta at a time but it is accompanied by several cetasikas which each perform their own function. ******* Nina. #71137 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. upasaka_howard Hi, James (ans Robert) - In a message dated 4/26/07 1:13:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hiri and Ottappa, in and of themselves, are accompanied by a pleasant > feeling. When one has shame and fear of doing a moral evil, and > consequently doesn't do any evil, then of course the mental feeling > is one of happiness. ======================= I suppose that proper English translation of these Pali terms ia essential. In any case: As far as fear of moral evil is concerned, if that amounts to disinclination to act immorally, I agree that, in itself, it might well be pleasant, even typically so. Shame and great regret, however, at having acted immorally, is, in my experience, most assuredly unpleasant. In fact it is the very unpleasantness that in part serves as a spur to rectification - that is how that aspect of conscience works. With metta, Howard #71138 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily nilovg Dear James, quite right. But the picture one has of oneself may be spoilt by impurity and then one hates oneself for it. This is dosa, conditioned by lobha and ignorance. Actually, one takes a negative attitude towards one's defilements. Instead of understanding them as conditioned dhammas. But, as you will read in my Perfections, it is wisdom to consider defilements like dung. Perhaps we are not so far away from each other and it is just the interpretation of the word aversion. I mean dosa. You mean hiri, and that is kusala. James: N: wanting to get rid of them, that is good. But, beware of the idea of self creeping in. *My* defilements, *my* getting rid of them. So long as there is "I, I, I," there will not be any eradication. Nina. Op 26-apr-2007, om 12:20 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > As the Buddha taught, we ALL hold ourselves dear. #71139 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/26/07 2:11:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > > > IMO, shame at having been immoral and fear of being so are > unpleasant, > >and they are also kusala. > ____________ > Dear Howard, > This belief is in conflict with the Abhidhamma. Only painful bodily > feeling or dosa mula citta (citta rooted in aversion) have unpleasant > feeling. And dosa mula citta is akusala. > Robert > ======================= Okay. BTW, Robert, have you ever experienced shame at having acted immorally? Was it pleasant for you? With metta, Howard #71140 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 4/26/07 1:55:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard > Ok, I am a bit slow on understanding, please be patient. In your > example above -"At present there are people in > the world who > believe in murder of some people as a good deed that will send > them into the > arms of 72 virgins in some heaven world. Don't put so much stock > in beliefs,""- I would have thought their belief is a determining > factor. If they didn't have that belief would they still murder? > Robert > ======================== You are correct about this example, Robert. It was a poor one. The 72-virgin belief indeed serves as an inducement, playing on lust, and as a justification.My apologies for that example. My main point, forgetting that poor example, is that people are generally led by their cravings and aversions more than their beliefs. Their desires, often quite perverse, are frequently so strong, that despite a sure belief that there will be "retribution" for immoral action, lead them nonetheless to evil action, even to engaging in atrocities. And when they don't outright ignore contrary belief, they attempt end-runs around it, their desires at times pushing them to concoct all sorts of contorted stories about wouldly facts and events to accomodate their belief. People are led by desire and aversion for the most part, and these overpower belief, even correct belief. Right view in the sense only of correct belief is a good beginning, but weak. Right view in the sense of highest wisdom is different: It is powerful and transforming, and it uproots the roots of craving and aversion. With metta, Howard #71141 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Dear Sarah, Actually, it is not from frustration that I was determining to be quiet so much as recognition that this group is one at which I could easily spend too much time that I should be spending in meditation - but your words were kind and helpful and deserve a response. So let me cling to my views a little more here. :) The teachings of the Buddha are beautiful and wonderfully simple, if we let them be so. IMHO the greatest barrier westerners need to overcome in order to see this simplicity and beauty is our tendency to over-analyze and over-intellectualize - to be in our heads too much rather than in our hearts and our bodies. That is why I find the Dhammapada more helpful than the Abhidhamma in teaching me how to make Buddhism a living force in my life. I don't think anyone disagrees with the value of seeing the arising and passing away of dhammas. Sarah: For example, you mentioned that you have the book "Metta". On its first page, we read about how conceit is an obstacle for metta. When there is conceit we fly a banner and find ourselves so importance. At such times, there is no kindness or concern for others at all. Does this mean we should sit quietly and try to have more metta or does it mean that whilst we are with family, friends or strangers we can become more familiar with the qualities of metta and conceit? By appreciating the great value of the former and the harm of the latter, is it not a condition for metta to develop? Robert A: Yes it is, but the question is how do we develop our capacity to do just what you said - to 'become more familiar with the qualities of metta and conceit'. I don't think that capacity is innate. It is something that must be cultivated as a skill, and I think all of the practices of Buddhism, as described in the Noble Eightfold Path do just that. What I am saying is that I think most people would find that if they do try 'sitting quietly' as you put it and also taking up practices such as generousity, patience, and virtue not as abstract 'good things to do' but as systematic practices, they would find 'whilst we are with family, friends, or strangers', our capacity for wise reflection has been strengthened greatly. Thank you very much for your response and I wish you well with your practice, however you choose to pursue it. With Metta, Robert A. #71142 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:12 am Subject: Perfections N, no 19 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 5 THE PERFECTION OF WISDOM There are different kinds and degrees of pa~n~na, wisdom, and the Bodhisatta developed them all. The Bodhisatta knew what was good and what was harmful for beings, and this is wisdom. Out of compassion he gave advice both with regard to material welfare and spiritual welfare. Also during the lives when he was an animal he saved other beings from destruction. In the train to Bodhgaya Bhante Dhammadhara read to us the "Supparaka-Játaka" (no. 463), the story of the Bodhisatta’s life as a wise mariner who guided people on a ship through dangerous seas, collected treasures for them and brought them safely home. When he had become the Buddha he guided beings through the sea of samsára, the cycle of birth and death, and he helped them to reach safety, to reach the real security which is the end of rebirth. Bhante Dhammadhara said that one has to be "long-sighted" to be able to develop pa~n~na. The ultimate result will be the attainment of nibbana, but that is a long way off. One cannot attain nibbãna immediately when one has just begun to develop pa~n~na, it takes countless lives. One has to know what the stumbling blocks are, one has to know the right conditions for the growth of pa~n~na, one has to study realities and consider them carefully, over and over again. The Bodhisatta developed the wisdom based on learning, that is: wisdom through studying, listening, memorizing and interrogation. He developed the wisdom based on reflection, he considered paramattha dhammas, and he developed insight, direct understanding of realities. He had listened to several Buddhas and thus he had learnt to develop satipatthana. Out of compassion he also helped other beings to develop wisdom. We read that when the Bodhisatta was Sumedha he understood the danger of rebirth and the disadvantages of defilements. He compared defilements with dung and we should reflect on this simile. Do we realize the ugliness of defilements, do we really consider them as filthy as dung? The Bodhisatta knew that there should be an end to defilements. He compared nibbãna to a lake in which the stain of corruptions could be washed away. Generosity, sila and all the other perfections must have as their foundation pa~n~na which sees the danger of defilements, otherwise they cannot be purified. The goal of the perfections is the eradication of defilements. The commentary to the Cariyãpitaka states that pa~n~na is the chief cause for the development of the other perfections, that it perfects them all. In his last life the Bodhisatta reached the omniscience of a Buddha. After he had realized the truth of all conditioned realities he experienced the unconditioned reality, nibbana. ********* Nina. #71143 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Orgasm upasaka_howard Hi, Herman & Sarah - In a message dated 4/26/07 6:42:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > If you know the experience of enlightenment, by all means, speak up. > > If, on the other hand, it's only something you've heard about, frankly > my dear, I don't give a damn. > > Herman > ======================= Just to forestall misunderstanding, I rush to point out that "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn" quotes Clark Gable from the film "Gone with the Wind". With classic celluloid metta, Howard #71144 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:27 am Subject: Re: Self and Other (Re: [dsg] what is sati nilovg Dear Sarah thank you, very good. Nina. Op 26-apr-2007, om 12:05 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > You may also like to look at p233 in the Guide and its footnote #71145 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > My main point, forgetting that poor example, is that people are > generally led by their cravings and aversions more than their beliefs. Their > desires, often quite perverse, are frequently so strong, that despite a sure belief > that there will be "retribution" for immoral action, lead them nonetheless to > evil action, even to engaging in atrocities. And when they don't outright > ignore contrary belief, they attempt end-runs around it, their desires at times > pushing them to concoct all sorts of contorted stories about wouldly facts and > events to accomodate their belief. People are led by desire and aversion for the > most part, and these overpower belief, even correct belief. Right view in the > sense only of correct belief is a good beginning, but weak. Right view in the > sense of highest wisdom is different: It is powerful and transforming, and it > uproots the roots of craving and aversion. >____________ Dear Howard Ditthi, wrong view, always comes associated with lobha, clinging. The more the view is pondered the more attachment increases. It becomes exceedingly sticky, so that even a Buddha could not dislodge it. The Buddha says: "Monks I know not of any other single thing so greatly to be blamed as perverted view. Perverted views at their worst are greatly to be blamed". Anguttara Nikaya 1,17,10. Chapter XVIII Makkhali (page 29 gradual sayings vol.I) And these views - the worst ones- are those that deny rebirth and kamma. Because of science teaching, which is based on materialism and the void left after the decline of the Christian church , this is now a dominant view in western societies, a regrettable matter. Robert #71146 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello again Sarah, If I could say one more thing about meditation: I have seen some discussions that imply that the really useful place to see dhammas arise and pass away is in the situations of our lives - that somehow meditation is a lost opportunity to confront the dhammas in their native environment, so to speak. I don't know about for you, but for me, in meditation, there are still a lot of dhammas coming and going, and I have always thought that one of the points of meditation is to create a special environment where we can be more skillfully aware of them, and our getting to know them in this more simple setting enhances our ability to see their true nature in the more complex setting of that Thanksgiving family gathering. Thank you, Robert A. #71147 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dangers of rebirth: anatta, pinnacle of dhamma? upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - > >____________ > Dear Howard > Ditthi, wrong view, always comes associated with lobha, clinging. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think that depends on exactly what is meant by "wrong view". There are lots of mistaken beliefs that are of no importance to one and involve no clinging at all. But I agree that the core wrong views, those that pertain to atta, when deepset, and not mere "positions", are associated with clinging. ---------------------------------------------- > The more the view is pondered the more attachment increases. It > becomes exceedingly sticky, so that even a Buddha could not dislodge > it. > The Buddha says: > "Monks I know not of any other single thing so greatly to be blamed > as perverted view. Perverted views at their worst are greatly to be > blamed". Anguttara Nikaya 1,17,10. Chapter XVIII Makkhali (page 29 > gradual sayings vol.I) > > And these views - the worst ones- are those that deny rebirth and > kamma. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: These are basic and harmful. They are not the worst, however. There are people who believe in rebirth and in kamma, yet who also believe that short-run pleasures for themselves are worth the long-run kammic penalties, and there are those who believe that they are so greatly superior to the mass of humanity that they have the right to do whatever they wish. In short, extreme egomania is worse. ===================== With metta, Howard #71148 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue TGrand458@... Hi Robert A. I think this was beautifully stated by the conditions we know as Robert A. :-) I'm happy that you took the time from your meditation to share this because it was valuable for me to hear. TG #71149 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello TG, Thank you for your kind words. Robert A. #71150 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha's Path nilovg Dear Claudia, Zolag answered: It takes long to arrive here and needs a password. Then it is O.K. I ordered some copies and later on I can send it if you like. Please give off line your postal address. Nina. Op 26-apr-2007, om 9:21 heeft cultry1 het volgende geschreven: > Where can I find this text of yous? #71151 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:23 pm Subject: virtue nilovg Dear Sarah and all, ------ Sarah, here are many good thoughts on the practice. People often want to know what is the practice. Here is food for thought and I want to consider more, while reading your post. I just think aloud. ---------- Sarah to Rob A: For example, you mentioned that you have the book "Metta". On its first page, we read about how conceit is an obstacle for metta. When there is conceit we fly a banner and find ourselves so importance. At such times, there is no kindness or concern for others at all. -------- N: Some people were surprised that Kh Sujin spoke about conceit in the context of metta on the first page. People are used to hearing talk on the opposite: dosa. This is very much to the point: when there is conceit the citta is not gentle but harsh. We are stiff with pride. Perhaps we did not consider this before. When there is metta the citta is gentle. --------- S: Does this mean we should sit quietly and try to have more metta or does it mean that whilst we are with family, friends or strangers we can become mor familiar with the qualities of metta and conceit? By appreciating the great value of the former and the harm of the latter, is it not a condition for metta to develop? ------ N: Then is the practice, when we are leading our normal life, being in the company of others, I find. ------- S: Isn't it also true that we usually assume that various virtuous qualities such as metta are part of a person's character. "Oh, he/she's so kind...." and so on. In fact, by learning and considering that there are merely dhammas that arise and fall away, there is a growing appreciation that such qualities do not belong to anyone. There is no purpose in clinging or being averse to such impermanent dhammas. ------- N: Yes, I catch myself thinking of someone's kind character. Good reminder here. Merely dhammas arising and falling away. --------- S: .... So, reflecting on dhammas during the course of a day and much more to the point, being aware of such dhammas when they arise is practice, is what the Buddha recommended. This is why he taught about such dhammas for 45 years and why it was possible for people to become enlightened, 'fully practice' on the spot. -------- N: This is the practice. And so it happened, they attained enlightenment on the spot. Many thanks, Nina. #71152 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] virtue TGrand458@... Hi Nina and Sarah A couple comments below... In a message dated 4/26/2007 2:35:53 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Sarah and all, ------ Sarah, here are many good thoughts on the practice. People often want to know what is the practice. Here is food for thought and I want to consider more, while reading your post. I just think aloud. ---------- Sarah to Rob A: For example, you mentioned that you have the book "Metta". On its first page, we read about how conceit is an obstacle for metta. When there is conceit we fly a banner and find ourselves so importance. At such times, there is no kindness or concern for others at all. -------- N: Some people were surprised that Kh Sujin spoke about conceit in the context of metta on the first page. People are used to hearing talk on the opposite: dosa. This is very much to the point: when there is conceit the citta is not gentle but harsh. We are stiff with pride. Perhaps we did not consider this before. When there is metta the citta is gentle. --------- S: Does this mean we should sit quietly and try to have more metta or does it mean that whilst we are with family, friends or strangers we can become mor familiar with the qualities of metta and conceit? By appreciating the great value of the former and the harm of the latter, is it not a condition for metta to develop? ------ N: Then is the practice, when we are leading our normal life, being in the company of others, I find. ------- TG: If I'm following you correctly ... you are suggesting that Buddhist practice is best in the company of others while leading a "normal" life? S: Isn't it also true that we usually assume that various virtuous qualities such as metta are part of a person's character. "Oh, he/she's so kind...." and so on. In fact, by learning and considering that there are merely dhammas that arise and fall away, there is a growing appreciation that such qualities do not belong to anyone. There is no purpose in clinging or being averse to such impermanent dhammas. ------- N: Yes, I catch myself thinking of someone's kind character. Good reminder here. Merely dhammas arising and falling away. --------- S: .... So, reflecting on dhammas during the course of a day and much more to the point, being aware of such dhammas when they arise is practice, is what the Buddha recommended. This is why he taught about such dhammas for 45 years and why it was possible for people to become enlightened, 'fully practice' on the spot. -------- N: This is the practice. And so it happened, they attained enlightenment on the spot. Many thanks, Nina. TG: You mean on the spot where the Buddha vowed to meditate until he was enlightened? The spot where he sat in solitude? I find this post unusually disturbing. I hope I am misunderstanding something here. TG #71153 From: "sukinder" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:03 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Virtue sukinderpal Dear Robert A., The below caught my attention and interest. ============================ Robert: As I have been reading here, my reaction to the ideas you express has been very similar to my reaction when reading J. Krishnamurti. A lot of what he says seems to make great sense in theory, but what I have trouble with is, again, finding how to make that theory into a practice. The parallel continues in how he distains all techniques and practices other than choiceless awareness and dismisses anyone who asks him 'how to be aware'. Sukin: I was once very interested in Krishnamurti and still admire him quite a bit. I would rather read him than do most Buddhists books available. The reason as you have noted, he has a similar attitude towards techniques/methods for arousing awareness as do some of us here. He seems to me to have had some level of insight(conventional) into the nature of 'thinking' vs. 'thoughts'. One of his statements which stuck with me from around 20 yrs. ago was, "One can't learn from experience" (by this he meant 'past experience'). In other words I think he saw through thoughts about the past and future. My interest in K however, was lost for a good while when I got interested in Buddhism, this was the mainstream interpretation. One reason was that with the concept of 'formal meditation', I was being offered the chance to directly experience first hand all that I read in theory. There was nothing of the sort in K's teachings. And even though no significant change in perception and understanding occurred, the idea that I should just 'keep practicing' kept me going. This would have continued had I not been introduced to A. Sujin and DSG. Since then, there has been some "real learning", the kind that was never possible with the mainstream interpretation. I was reminded again about K's statements on "learning" and visited some discussion lists on the net. Some ideas, especially those regarding the 'limitation of thoughts', I was impressed with. However I noted that participants often argued with little consideration for morality. And I compared K's to Buddha's teachings and saw that while Sila, Dana, the Parami, the Brahmavihaaras and all other forms of kusala were very much stressed in the Dhamma, K would talk a little about love, honesty and compassion and only in passing about some of the other kusala dhammas. Obviously K had no idea about the Parami and how generosity, loving kindness, sincerity, renunciation, patience, wisdom and so on was intimately connected. This is because he was not enlightened. And because he was not enlightened and not a Savaka either, he did not know the 4NT. This means that whatever he concluded about reality and the path (choice less awareness), it was rooted in "self View" and therefore wrong. So in a way Robert, I think you were justified in not pursuing K. His teachings *could never* have taken you close to the Truth. But perhaps you might also question your own motives? First of all, what is it that you mean by 'theory' and what 'practice'? What does practice actually mean in Dhamma terms, and can Dhamma in fact be considered theory in the way it is generally understood? Are you bringing in into your Dhamma study some preconceived /conventional understanding? Secondly, are you not also having some expectations of results? If so would this not determine the preferred interpretation? These are rhetorical questions, of course. Dhamma/Abhidhamma is deep and so very hard to see, but because it is about experience-able realities, I think the way its proper study brings about results (often not discernable), requires much patience; certainly expectations about 'applying theory' will only hinder and mislead. Ignorance hides the Truth and wisdom reveals it. Both of these are conditioned realities beyond control of 'self' to make arise or not. Panna when arisen "knows" amongst other things, this truth, ignorance on the other hand, can only "want" panna to arise, but will never succeed. So we do land up in a bind and *not know* it! Hearing about this and about all other realities of daily life, hearing about their proximate cause, function, manifestation and characteristic and about 'conditionality' in general, can be a condition whereby directly knowing them with panna can take place. One important part of the process is hearing/considering about 'wrong view' and 'desire', to misinterpret and mislead. These apparently were the driving forces in our quests before hearing the dhamma, and there is no reason to believe that they would not influence the way Dhamma itself is read in the beginning. All the more reason to 'study', and to be patient and careful with it. Otherwise if we have made up our minds about an interpretation which is wrong but feels right, is this not dangerous? Another thing, this idea about "putting into practice the theory", why so? Is there not at such a time 'self-view', an idea about self and situations in time? Why not 'develop understanding' instead? Ignorance and the other dhammas being in effect "now", why not the interest in these? But of course, this pov arises only after there has been some understanding, but this I believe is what must be the position at one time or the other. Krishnamurti had some insight into the futility of using "thought to solve the problem of thought". Buddhists on the other hand continue to use 'self' to understand 'self', but this is not possible, and the reason why 'insight' is the key. K had many limitations, but most Buddhists even after hearing about the danger of Wrong View, continue to insist on an interpretation of Dhamma that is clearly influenced by self-view. Many of K's students do end up realizing as you did, that his teachings can't lead very far, Buddhists on the other hand, armed with all those 'beautiful concepts', actually end up projecting the ideas and becoming attached to illusory results. Besides is it not wiser to consider the causes rather than results? OK, I'm going on and on, so I'll end here. Just this last: ============================ Robert : I have asked enough questions, so I will be quiet for awhile and just read. Sukin: I see great value in discussions, without it there is little or no chance to 'correct one's views', this being an indispensable part of the process leading to insight and penetration. But I just saw your name in the message list, so it seems that you are still around responding. ;-) Metta, Sukinder #71154 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? buddhatrue Hi Howard and Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (ans Robert) - > > In a message dated 4/26/07 1:13:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > > Hiri and Ottappa, in and of themselves, are accompanied by a pleasant > > feeling. When one has shame and fear of doing a moral evil, and > > consequently doesn't do any evil, then of course the mental feeling > > is one of happiness. > ======================= > I suppose that proper English translation of these Pali terms ia > essential. In any case: As far as fear of moral evil is concerned, if that amounts > to disinclination to act immorally, I agree that, in itself, it might well be > pleasant, even typically so. Shame and great regret, however, at having acted > immorally, is, in my experience, most assuredly unpleasant. In fact it is the > very unpleasantness that in part serves as a spur to rectification - that is > how that aspect of conscience works. You know, I don't think I am really explaining this very well because the Abhidhamma doesn't have a very good explanation, as far as I can tell. Here is what the Buddha taught: "Two white Dhammas; O Bhikkhus, there are that protect the world. What are they? they are HIRI and OTTAPPA. Without these two, O Bhikkhus, there would not be those being regarded as mothers, aunts, teachers' wives. The world would then be steeped in promiscuity, with the behaviour of peoples like those of the goats, sheep, hens, pigs, dogs and foxes." http://www.mahidol.ac.th/budsir/Part4_4.htm Hiri and Ottappa are wholesome cetasikas, but they are not "natural" in that everyone is born with them. They are developed through morality training. There is a social taboo against incest because of Hiri and Ottappa; however, in those who haven't developed hiri and ottappa, they would have no problem with committing incest (as often happens). Hiri and Ottappa apply to other social standards as well; and for a monk in training, hiri and ottappa are developed for 227 different precepts. Now, the Abhidhamma states that hiri and ottappa are accompanied by pleasant feeling. I don't have a problem agreeing with that because when one isn't breaking moral codes, then of course the feeling is pleasant. However, as far as I can tell in my limited research, the Abhidhamma doesn't say anything about when one breaks moral codes. Are hiri and ottappa then accompanied by unpleasant feeling? Or are some other cetasikas involved? I can't seem to find a good answer to that. However, if Robert or anyone else maintains that moral shame over having broken a moral code is accompanied by a pleasant mental feeling, then they are hopelessly foolish! They have no common sense and believe something just because it is written in a book. Sophocles' Oedipus has Oedipus so filled with unpleasant feeling when he finds out that he has killed his father and has had four children with his mother, that he gouges his eyes out. This is believable because moral shame is an unpleasant feeling! Anyway, I don't know what to think of this subject as far as the Abhidhamma goes. I think that probably there is a missing piece somewhere. Metta, James #71155 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily buddhatrue Hi Nina, Thanks for writing back to me. I hope that this discussion isn't too tiring/taxing for you. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear James, > quite right. But the picture one has of oneself may be spoilt by > impurity and then one hates oneself for it. James: First you agree with me that self hate isn't a possibility, but then you say that self hate is a possibility. Which is it? This is important because this whole issue hinges on this matter. You and KS are asserting that one should not "hate" one's defilements because that is self-hate and unhealty (in a psychological sense); I am asserting that you and KS are raising concern over something that isn't a possibility. As I first stated, long ago at the beginning of this thread, it doesn't make any sense to say that one "hates" his/her defilements because hate is a defilement. Now I am also saying that it doesn't make any sense to say that one hates oneself because it isn't possible to hate oneself (although that expression is used in a psychological sense, it doesn't really mean that one hates oneself- what it means is that one is overwhelmed with suffering and wishes to end it.) So, finally, what I am trying to point out is that you and KS are raising concern over a non-issue which would then be interpreted by most as negating Right Effort as taught by the Buddha. <*whew* that's a mouthful! ;-))> This is dosa, conditioned > by lobha and ignorance. Actually, one takes a negative attitude > towards one's defilements. Instead of understanding them as > conditioned dhammas. James: This is just so silly. It sounds like psychobabble. Again, please, please, please quote to me where the Buddha taught that this is a real issue! > But, as you will read in my Perfections, it is wisdom to consider > defilements like dung. James: So, consider them like dung but don't disapprove of them too much! Nina, just what are you saying? (BTW, I agree that it is wisdom to consider them like dung...this must be from the Buddha, not from you or KS.) > Perhaps we are not so far away from each other and it is just the > interpretation of the word aversion. I mean dosa. You mean hiri, and > that is kusala. James: Yes, I mean hiri...but there is some confusion as to if hiri involves dosa (aversion) or not. See my recent post to Howard and Robert. > James: oneself ofdefilements, is not "self hate", it is wisdom.> > N: wanting to get rid of them, that is good. But, beware of the idea > of self creeping in. *My* defilements, *my* getting rid of them. So > long as there is "I, I, I," there will not be any eradication. James: This is a non-issue. Erradication of the sense of self happens at the end of the path, not the beginning. > Nina. Metta, James #71156 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Robert) - In a message dated 4/26/07 8:52:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > However, if Robert or anyone else maintains that moral shame over > having broken a moral code is accompanied by a pleasant mental > feeling, then they are hopelessly foolish! They have no common sense > and believe something just because it is written in a book. > Sophocles' Oedipus has Oedipus so filled with unpleasant feeling when > he finds out that he has killed his father and has had four children > with his mother, that he gouges his eyes out. This is believable > because moral shame is an unpleasant feeling! > ======================== This was my sole point - that shame at having acted immorally is unpleasant. This is about as clear as could possibly be. At the same time, such shame is proper and moral and kusala. It's absence would be perverse and akusala. With metta, Howard #71157 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue buddhatrue Hi Robert A (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > Hello again Sarah, > > If I could say one more thing about meditation: > > I have seen some discussions that imply that the really useful place > to see dhammas arise and pass away is in the situations of our lives - > that somehow meditation is a lost opportunity to confront the dhammas > in their native environment, so to speak. > > I don't know about for you, but for me, in meditation, there are still > a lot of dhammas coming and going, and I have always thought that one > of the points of meditation is to create a special environment where > we can be more skillfully aware of them, and our getting to know them > in this more simple setting enhances our ability to see their true > nature in the more complex setting of that Thanksgiving family > gathering. I agree with you. The Buddha taught that the householder life is a dusty path, but Sarah and the KS crew try to maintain that it isn't dusty at all- that's its clean as a whistle and the perfect place to practice the Buddha's teaching. That is just wishful thinking on their part. They have attachment to their lifestyles so they don't want to give them up in the pursuit of the Buddha's path. They completely ignore the Buddha's teaching of "renunciation". Those who really understand the Buddha's teaching, understand what he said when he called the householder life a dusty path. They understand that time must be set aside to practice mental cultivation (bhavana) if one wants to make any progress at all. You are doing the right thing. I hope that you don't remain quiet and in the background in this group. Debate, if done without anger, can be beneficial to understanding and dedication (faith). Metta, James ps. To Nidhi....this post applies to you also. :-) #71158 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello Sukin, Thank you for responding to my post. Sukin: Obviously K had no idea about the Parami and how generosity, loving kindness, sincerity, renunciation, patience, wisdom and so on was intimately connected. This is because he was not enlightened. And because he was not enlightened and not a Savaka either, he did not know the 4NT. This means that whatever he concluded about reality and the path (choice less awareness), it was rooted in "self View" and therefore wrong. Robert A: With all respect, statements like this make me a little uncomfortable. I think it is a good idea not to judge others rightness or wrongness. It is better to let their writings speak for themselves and let others draw their own conclusions. Sukin: So in a way Robert, I think you were justified in not pursuing K. His teachings *could never* have taken you close to the Truth. But perhaps you might also question your own motives? First of all, what is it that you mean by 'theory' and what 'practice'? What does practice actually mean in Dhamma terms, and can Dhamma in fact be considered theory in the way it is generally understood? Are you bringing in into your Dhamma study some preconceived /conventional understanding? Secondly, are you not also having some expectations of results? If so would this not determine the preferred interpretation? These are rhetorical questions, of course. Robert A. I didn't pursue the teachings of Krishnamurti because I did not understand them. That does not say anything about their 'truth' or wisdom, only that I could not find a way to work with them that was helpful for me in my life. What I mean by theory is the view of reality that is described by the teachings of the Buddha. What I mean by practice is everything I do in response to hearing those teachings - how those teachings have changed the way I live my life. The difference between the teachings of the Buddha for me, is, unlike the teachings of Krishnamurti, they gave me all kinds of tools that were so very helpful for me in finding what I think was a better way to live. Sukin: Dhamma/Abhidhamma is deep and so very hard to see, but because it is about experience-able realities, I think the way its proper study brings about results (often not discernable), requires much patience; certainly expectations about 'applying theory' will only hinder and mislead. Ignorance hides the Truth and wisdom reveals it. Both of these are conditioned realities beyond control of 'self' to make arise or not. Panna when arisen "knows" amongst other things, this truth, ignorance on the other hand, can only "want" panna to arise, but will never succeed. So we do land up in a bind and *not know* it! Robert A: Perhaps I am in that bind and *not know* it. Perhaps not. I don't see how that discussion can ever end. Sukin: Another thing, this idea about "putting into practice the theory", why so? Is there not at such a time 'self-view', an idea about self and situations in time? Why not 'develop understanding' instead? Ignorance and the other dhammas being in effect "now", why not the interest in these? Robert A: I hope that in my own slow way I am developing some understanding. I hope that I am taking an interest in what is going on now. I am sorry if I gave the impression I thought it was not important to be aware of what was going on now, because certainly it is. Many years ago, when I was first developing an interest in Buddhism, I read in a little book called "Beginning to See" by Sujata that it was helpful to be aware. At that time, I thought it sounded easy, this awareness stuff, but soon found out it was not. However, through the help of many different people and books I found that it was possible to train in being aware - to develop this skill - and that is what I have been working on ever since. Sukin: But of course, this pov arises only after there has been some understanding, but this I believe is what must be the position at one time or the other. Robert A. Perhaps I am not quite there yet. Sukin: Krishnamurti had some insight into the futility of using "thought to solve the problem of thought". Buddhists on the other hand continue to use 'self' to understand 'self', but this is not possible, and the reason why 'insight' is the key. K had many limitations, but most Buddhists even after hearing about the danger of Wrong View, continue to insist on an interpretation of Dhamma that is clearly influenced by self-view. Many of K's students do end up realizing as you did, that his teachings can't lead very far, Buddhists on the other hand, armed with all those 'beautiful concepts', actually end up projecting the ideas and becoming attached to illusory results. Besides is it not wiser to consider the causes rather than results? Robert A: I hope I am considering causes, but I also like to pay attention to results. If some of my practices help me cause less harm, that is a result I think worth considering. Sukin: I see great value in discussions, without it there is little or no chance to 'correct one's views', this being an indispensable part of the process leading to insight and penetration. But I just saw your name in the message list, so it seems that you are still around responding. ;-) Robert A: Yes, discussions are of great value, but I have so little free time I often need to chose between several worthwhile activities. When I am retired I will spend more time in these discussions, but regret that I haven't figured out how to be retired just yet. Yes, I am still posting, but only because it seems this topic I opened up has not yet run its course. Thank you for the detailed and thoughtful response. I appreciate your efforts to explain your point of view as clearly as you can. I hope my responses haven't led you to believe it was completely for a lost cause. Robert A #71159 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello James, Thank you for your response. James: I agree with you. The Buddha taught that the householder life is a dusty path, but Sarah and the KS crew try to maintain that it isn't dusty at all- that's its clean as a whistle and the perfect place to practice the Buddha's teaching. That is just wishful thinking on their part. They have attachment to their lifestyles so they don't want to give them up in the pursuit of the Buddha's path. They completely ignore the Buddha's teaching of "renunciation". Robert A: This is always an interesting question - what is the 'best' environment for practice. There is the story of the yogi who spent twenty years in a cave in the mountains meditating on patience. Some could argue this wasn't the best approach since, if there was no one around to bug him, he wasn't really getting much 'practice' in patience. But you do need to make some time to train the mind outside of the rush of events - I feel very strongly this is so, not only because the Buddha teaches this, but because my own experience says it is so. I don't think these questions are ever cut and dry. I happen to believe that someone who spends his life in solitude meditating on compassion is doing something beautiful for all of our benefit. But how could I prove that is so? In the end we have to go with what we feel to be true. James: Those who really understand the Buddha's teaching, understand what he said when he called the householder life a dusty path. They understand that time must be set aside to practice mental cultivation (bhavana) if one wants to make any progress at all. Robert A: Yes, I agree. The more one practices in the setting of the household life, the more one sees the difficulties it presents. At the same time, I think it is of value to find the best way to practice as a householder since most of us probably won't become monastics. Learning how to practice in the world, doing the best you can, and sharing what you learn with others caught in the rat race, can help a lot of people. James: You are doing the right thing. I hope that you don't remain quiet and in the background in this group. Debate, if done without anger, can be beneficial to understanding and dedication (faith). Robert A: Thank you very much for your encouragement. Yes, debate can be beneficial, as long as we can find the right balance between the outer activities, such as participating in these groups, and the inner activities which make it possible for us to do the outer ones skillfully. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. Robert A. #71160 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Orgasm egberdina Hi Howard and Sarah, On 27/04/07, upasaka@... wrote: > > Just to forestall misunderstanding, I rush to point out that "Frankly > my dear, I don't give a damn" quotes Clark Gable from the film "Gone with the > Wind". > > With classic celluloid metta, > Howard > Yes, quite right. Thanks for pointing that out Howard. I did intend my quip as a bit of wit :-) Herman #71161 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? nilovg Dear James, just briefly: hiri and ottappa accompany kusala citta and this is either accompanied by happy feeling or by indifferent feeling. When morality is transgressed there are the akusala cetasikas: ahirika and anotappa. 'a' means: not, a negation. Nina. Op 27-apr-2007, om 2:48 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Now, the Abhidhamma states that hiri and ottappa are accompanied by > pleasant feeling. I don't have a problem agreeing with that because > when one isn't breaking moral codes, then of course the feeling is > pleasant. However, as far as I can tell in my limited research, the > Abhidhamma doesn't say anything about when one breaks moral codes. #71162 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: best wishes to all sarahprocter... All, this is another message from Nidhi sent to the mods account in response to our off-list note at the bottom of it. I'm sure any encouragement will be welcomed! S. ====================== Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 3:41:21 AM dear sarah thanks for forwarding my mail. i would surely visit the site. if there is any specific thing i can share i would surely love to do that. as long as joining DSG is concerned, i think i m a misfit there. to me mere talking about dhamma is of no worth. i have been through the phase when i couldnt meditate, but sutta brought me to meditation again, i would like to explain how. may be it helps someone. 1) take any sutta where buddha gives instructions (as in some sutta there are reflections of buddha, we must leave those sutta). 2) watch that sutta within for sometime. understand how things work in our mind or body. that is read with contemplation or meditation if possible. 3) do this only for some days. in between dont read other suttas. (its very important). 4)watch very closely, very patiently, consistently. Enquiry within oneself is the key to success. 5) the approach must be of a scientist+compassion for all beings. i mean we must investigate why clinging arises in human beings (not me). its good to choose a sutta where instructions are easily implementable, and dont belong to very higher things. we are learning ABCD compared to lord buddha's standards, so i feel we must not look at what he talks about Phd. level. at that level very subtle things appear, and we have to care for very subtle things, but at our level we have to start with gross. so effortlessness is a subtle thing, but at our level we have to make some effort. we are learning writing alphabets, we must not talk about calligraphy. if we do it for some time mind settles and becomes fit for formal meditation. whatever i have shared above, i work this way and i devised this my own self. so please use ur own discretion. however it has worked quite fine for me so far. i wish it would work for you as well. i m quite weak in correct framing of words, so if u need any clarification, please feel free to ask. with best wishes nidhi ***** Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: Dear Nidhi, We've forwarded your message to DSG. Pls look there for replies. We greatly appreciate your sharing of your Dhamma views and practice. Pls reconsider and continue to share more. Dhamma is the greatest dana! Best wishes, Jon & Sarah ***** #71163 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:44 pm Subject: Herman's idea of wit!*#$/?!!! (was: [dsg] Orgasm) sarahprocter... Hi Herman & Howard, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Yes, quite right. Thanks for pointing that out Howard. I did intend my > quip as a bit of wit :-) .... S: When someone (who was it?) recently mentioned that he was sure that if we were to all meet together, we'd be best friends, I had thought of replying with my own brand of wit by suggesting that, yes, even meeting Herman is a real pleasure face-to-face :-). Metta(at a pinch..:-/), Sarah ===== #71164 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: best wishes to all avalo1968 Nidhi, Thank you for the interesting message. I will work with your advice in my own practice. I am thinking that the same approach might be usefully applied with just a few verses of the Dhammapada. What do you think? You need not worry about your English. Your writing was very clear. With Metta, Robert A. #71165 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear James, > just briefly: hiri and ottappa accompany kusala citta and this is > either accompanied by happy feeling or by indifferent feeling. > When morality is transgressed there are the akusala cetasikas: > ahirika and anotappa. 'a' means: not, a negation. > Nina. I was aware of this. However, what does the Abhidhamma have to say about the feeling of remorse, shame, guilt, etc. which lasts for a long time after the moral code has been transgressed? Surely this is an unpleasant feeling....does it accompany Hiri and Ottappa? What does the Abhidhamma say in this regard. I looked in the Manual of Abhidhamma and I couldn't find anything that relates. Metta, James #71166 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:59 pm Subject: The Tranquil One! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Highest Tranquilization is of Greed, Hate & Confusion! The Blessed Buddha once said: Formerly, when that person was still ignorant, then he was obsessed and possessed of sexual & sensual greed, envy, jealousy, miserliness & he was obsessed and possessed of hate, anger, ill-will, irritation & stubbornness & he was obsessed by and possessed of ignorance, delusion, and foolishness... These things are now overcome by him, rooted out, like a palm-tree razed to the ground, destroyed, & unable to come into existence forever again! Therefore such Bhikkhu, thus endowed, is indeed endowed with the highest tranquillization as his unshakable foundation. Since this, friends, is the very highest & most sacred: The Tranquillization of Greed, Hate, & Ignorance !!! Source Text (extract): Majjhima Nikaya 140: Analysis of the Elements: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #71167 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:18 pm Subject: Re: Herman's idea of wit!*#$/?!!! (was: [dsg] Orgasm) egberdina Hi Sarah, On 27/04/07, sarah abbott wrote: > > > --- Herman Hofman wrote: > > Yes, quite right. Thanks for pointing that out Howard. I did intend my > > quip as a bit of wit :-) > .... > S: > > When someone (who was it?) recently mentioned that he was sure that if we > were to all meet together, we'd be best friends, I had thought of replying > with my own brand of wit by suggesting that, yes, even meeting Herman is a > real pleasure face-to-face :-). > :-) And I much enjoyed meeting you and Jon. Did you "get" my allusion to orgasm? I just used it to demonstrate how talking about it is nothing like it, and actually prevents it. I know the same goes for jahnas, and I suspect it would apply to enlightenment as well. Having sorted that out ........back to work, everyone :-) Herman #71168 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. egberdina Hi RobK, On 26/04/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > > Hi RobK, > > > > What would you say about the citta of our samurai friend, who with > > skillful precision and equanimity, slices off the head of his > > opponent? Kusala citta? > > > Dear Herman, > At the moment of killing a being there is always dosa mula citta > (citta rooted in aversion) and this always comes with unpleasant > feeling. However, cittas are changing rapidly- immediately before > that the samurai could have citta rooted in greed (which is also > akusala - but it comes with neutral or pleasant feeling). I may be wrong, but I think that the Abhidhamma cannot actually give an account of killing a being. I will take your word for which feelings go with which cittas, but to me these sound more like definitions, with no necessary connection to what is experienced. > > I hope I didnt give the impression that all pleasant feeling is > kusala. This is of course not so, as all craving, clinging and lust > comes with pleasant or neutral feeling. > I am quite surprised to read this. I experience craving / lust as unpleasant. It is the satisfaction of the craving which I experience as pleasant. Perhaps craving / lust is used differently to how I use it? Herman #71169 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:55 pm Subject: What About Me? buddhatrue Hi All, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDSAAlrqAHM Mipham- What About Me? Metta, James #71170 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Atta views: suffering and/or happiness egberdina Hi Howard, On 26/04/07, upasaka@... wrote: > > Is not the alleged soul of anything an unchanging essence, core, or > identity in that thing - it's self? Why apply the notion of atta only to the > conglomerate that is the conventional person? > When the Buddha says "Sabbe dhamma anatta," if 'anatta' doesn't mean > "without self" in the aforementioned general sense, doesn't the Buddha's > statement become odd in many cases? Is it surprising or novel that hardness has no > soul in the sense of an unchanging, eternal animating spirit? Is it deep that > an itch is without a soul? That water is? On the other hand, anatta in the > sense of being empty of own being IS deep, and it applies to dhammas and to the > conventional person alike. > I agree with you. Do you think that being empty of own being implies that all referring to processes, as in referring to this person, or that dhamma, is therefore atta-view? Herman #71171 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate egberdina Hi Scott, On 26/04/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > > Sorry for the delay. > No worries. > H: "I mean no more than the meanings of things doesn't inhere in the > things themselves. The meanings of things are given by you and me and > everybody else, according to our very basic beliefs and aspirations. > How we act in the world, or what we understand a book to be saying, is > not because the world is insisting on this action, or the book is > insisting on that meaning, but they reveal to us our innermost > tendencies. Something like bhavanga citta." > > Scott: Let me see if I'm getting you: 'The meaning of things', then, > would be that which one thinks about a thing, is this it? In the > world, 'basic beliefs and aspirations' would be one definition (or > perhaps set of aspects) of self. Yeah, sounds good. > > When you mention 'innermost tendencies', you link actions and > understanding to these entities. Is this correct? Is this dhammaa? > You suggest a dynamic interaction between action and understanding on > the one hand, and an apparently underlying structure consisting of > basic beliefs and aspirations. You suggest that this underlying > structure can be revealed by the way one acts or understands things. > Yeah, that's about right. > I can't quite follow the comparison to bhavanga citta. Can you > clarify this? I'm not aware that bhavanga citta reveals anything. No, it's not the bhavanga citta that reveals things, the bhavanga citta can be revealed. Like our innermost beliefs, that drive us without us knowing that we are driven by them, can be revealed. > Pa~n~na may serve a function like this, depending on what you are > meaning to say. Panna, or self-analysis, or both. Meaning doesn't inhere in a thing. Things (dhammaa) > have characteristics - or are equivalent to the characteristic > inherent in them. I think we are discussing naama when we are > discussing meaning. Sounds good. > H: "No, I don't actually know what you mean, sorry. Are you saying > that the opposite is true, that in studying a text you arrive at it's > objective, absolute meaning?" > > Scott: Who knows what I wind up saying. > > I think I'm saying that the text describes realities but is only a > text. I think this is what you are saying as well. I'm saying that > some correspondence exists between the textual descriptions of > realities and the realities themselves. This is were we start to diverge. You may have noticed a recent thread called "Orgasm". Avoid that thread at all costs. It is my worst effort at trying to convey something meaningful. But thanks for the opportunity to express again what I meant there, and hopefully it will come out a bit more coherent. Just to start of with, I would like to juxtapose orgasm, the experience, and the book written about it. I would say that any notions of correspondence between an orgasm and the book "Orgasm" are entirely mind-made. > > I'm saying that there is Dhamma. Yes, if Dhamma is the way things can be. I'm saying, given that these texts > reflect the teachings of a Buddha (Dhamma), and given that these > teachings were taught in one way (that is, are what they are and > not otherwise), I assume the existence of Truth defined as what a > Buddha taught (Dhamma). The book about the way things can be, and the way things can be, correspond because a mind makes them correspond. There is absolutely no orgasm in the book about it, and there is absolutely no Dhamma in the other book. This I define as Dhamma, and here we seem to > diverge. Dhamma, the teachings of a Buddha, are thus and so and not > otherwise and the texts, which reflect Dhamma, can be apprehended in a > way which corresponds to Dhamma or they can be misunderstood. > The book about orgasm can never be understood until you have one (an orgasm, that is, not the book). In the same way, the book about the way things can be can never be understood until it has become that way. > Then, I assume that the texts are in some way reflections or shadows > of this truth. I don't consider them to be essentially devoid of > essence or meaning (even if it is conceptual), nor do I consider > meaning to be equal to that which one arrives at as meaning. It is the mind that makes the meaning of the book, in the absence of the experience of what the book is describing. > > I assume that the teachings are in a form which I apperceive in some > way. I assume that the texts can be more or less 'perfectly' rendered > and come more or less close to reflecting Truth (Dhamma) as taught by > a Buddha. I assume that pa~n~na can know Truth (Dhamma). I assume > that reading is like hearing and then I think of the descriptions of > those at the time of the Buddha in whom, conditioned by hearing, the > Path arose to various degrees. There is no verbal description of an orgasm that any amount of panna can constitute into the experience. > > H: "I don't actually accept that Dhamma and dhammaa are different. But > I do realise that some equate the tipitaka with Dhamma. I think that > is a little scary, because I expect that everyone will have their own > interpretation of the tipitaka, and perhaps not everyone will accept > that their own reading of the tipitaka is not objective or absolute." > > Scott: What alternative do you suggest? How do you equate Dhamma and > dhammaa? To do so, to me, is to ignore differences which exist. I > still wonder to what extent you are willing to take this position of > interpretive relativism, if thats what it is. Do you go so far as to > say that, since the texts are subject to the whims of personal > interpretation, they are then not relevant? I take the texts as recipe books, as instructions for baking cakes, descriptions of difficulties encountered while trying to follow the instructions, how to overcome those difficulties, and descriptions of the cakes that arise should you succeed in following those recipes. Just like a book on orgasm that doesn't describe what is necessary in order to arrive at the experience would be as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike, so a book about the way things can be that doesn't prescribe the methods for getting there would be useless. What I am saying is that the tipitaka as a set of beautiful texts to study, is useless, and a self-serving exercise. Because, in effect, one is remaining ignorant that one is studying their own bhavanga citta, which is the basis for finding the text so beautiful to start of with. That's what I reckon, anyway. > > H: "As above, Dhamma and tipitaka are not to be conflated, IMO. And to > reiterate, I do not want to dissuade from studying texts. But the > intent of studying texts, as in studying dhammas, is not to discover > something absolute (because it isn't there). It is to discover the > underlying constructing activities that are making it appear that > things have this meaning, or that existence." > > Scott: Are you saying the Dhamma is dhammaa because Dhamma teaches > about dhammaa? If so, then I think I agree (nothing like solid > committment to what I'm sayin, eh? It would seem I lack trust). This > is why I differentiate conventional from ultimate. Ultimate reality > was taught by the Buddha. Texts and the reading of texts is not > knowing ultimate reality. This is known in the moment (dhammaa) but > these are real and it is reality that can be known. Amen to that. We agree. (If you see the teaching as a method to achieve a goal) Herman #71172 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate sarahprocter... Hi Scott, (Ven Dhammanando & all), From # 70866 - a useful post for further study.... --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear All, > > (For anyone actually wanting to discuss suttas in detail.) > > Comparing 'Modern' Commentators On: > > DN9 (Maurice Walshe) > > "...Po.t.thaapada, there are three kinds of 'acquired self': the > gross acquired self, the mind-made acquired self, the formless > acquired self. What is the gross acquired self? <...> > "...these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations > in common use in the world, which the Tathaagata uses without > misapprehending them." <...> > T. W Rhys Davis: > > "...For the most part, one point only is dealt with in each text. In > our Sutta it is, in the first place, the gradual change of mental > conditions, of states of consciousness: and then, secondly, the point > that personality, individuality (attapa.tilaabho) is only a convenient > expression in common use in the world, and therefore made use of also > by the Tathaagata, but only in such a manner that he is not led astray > by its ambiguity, by its apparent implication of some permanent entity." > > Scott: Can anyone find the Ancient Commentary to DN9? This would be > good for comparison. ... S: yes, I agree....there's v.little DN comy available, except for a few suttas like the Brahmajala. Perhaps Ven Dhammanando or someone else with Pali expertise will add any further comments if anything in the commentary is brief and pertinent enough to summarise. This post may also be relevant: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/65288 And then, of cours, lots and lots under 'Concepts vs Realities' in U.P. .... > > Personally, I don't go with Thanissaro Bhikkhu because of his > 'use-of-self-to-get-rid-of-self' notions, the heart of which can be > seen in the above excerpt of his 'commentary' (while the essence of > which suffuses his translations). The 'commentary' by Rhys Davis is, > at least, devoid of such theorising, however bland by comparison. .... S: Thx also for sharing your ell-considered critique of some TB statements on rather than off-list. I was glad to see Larry discussing these further. Metta, Sarah ========= #71173 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] virtue, time and place. nilovg Dear TG, I am sorry that you find this post so disturbing. Sarah will answer you, but meanwhile allow me to say a few words. The Buddha was extraordinary, he found the truth all by himself and taught the truth to us all. We are so fortunate that we can listen to his teachings. Thus, how could we compare our situation with the Buddha's circumstances. We read about people who listened to him and could develop understanding while they listened even to the degree of lokuttara pa~n~naa. Read the Sisters, they could attain enlightenment in daily life, when stumbling, when cooking, when blowing out a candle. We have to listen first and when we really understand the difference between concepts and paramattha dhammas, we know that there are dhammas appearing through the six doors, one at a time. The objects of awareness are everywhere and if we do not select time and place, only then, we can see that also awareness and understanding are dhammas that arise because of their appropriate conditions and not by our will or desire. Nina. Op 27-apr-2007, om 1:40 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > This is the practice. And so it happened, they attained > enlightenment on the spot. > Many thanks, > Nina. > > TG: You mean on the spot where the Buddha vowed to meditate until > he was > enlightened? The spot where he sat in solitude? I find this post > unusually > disturbing. #71174 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Falling in Love? sarahprocter... Hi James, OK, we both agree on the following 1st set, though your reservation to the sotapanna has been noted in. We can come back to that later if we wish. .... 1st set ======== 1. We both believe that Greed, Hatred and Ignorance are unwholesome or 'bad'. We can even use the word 'ugly' here. 2. The greed, hatred and ignorance which is of such a gross kind as to inflict harm on others is very bad, very ugly indeed. 3. More subtle kinds of greed, hatred and ignorance which may not even be noticed by ourselves or others are also bad, ugly. 4. A sotapanna no longer has such gross greed, hatred and ignorance as to break the precepts [James: according to the commentaries, maybe not evident in the suttas], but continues to have plenty of the subtler varieties. 5. So even though all kinds of greed, hatred and ignorance are bad or unwholesome( akusala in Pali), there are likely to be conditions for gross defilements (kilesa) to arise (if not in this lifetime, then in future lifetimes) as long as we are not sotapannas. There will also definitely be conditions for subtler defilements to arise very, very often in a day. They may be arising even now as we discuss the Dhamma. ***** 2nd set: ========= 1. We both agree that the past by definition has gone and the future hasn't come yet. The present is always now. 2. So any greed, hatred or ignorance now is bad or ugly. If it is of a degree now to inflict harm to others in anyway, it is very bad, very ugly, however we might try to justify it. 3. If there is greed, hatred or ignorance now, however natural and common it may be, it won't be of any assistance at all in the development of dana, sila or bhavana. In fact it will just lead to more of the same. 4. So feeling angry, annoyed, uneasy or disturbed by any object is not of value, just as being attached to any object is not of value, even though such states of mind occur all the time. 5. Past transgressions (even those of a few moments ago) have gone. Feeling disturbed by them now is understandable but not helpful. Having equanimity, peace of mind, metta or wise reflection now would be of value, however. 6. No one can make the wholesome states arise. However it helps to know what is of value and what isn't. ***** Pls continue to let me know if you have any disagreements so far. Metta, Sarah ======== #71175 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Virtue egberdina Hi TG, On 26/04/07, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > > What is the peril that lurks in death? > > Herman > > TG: Death itself is considered an affliction/dukkha. Also, rebirth into > states that are worse than where one is now is a possible peril... Hell, hungry > ghost, animal, disfigured, severely poor, etc. According to the suttas, > such a birth is more likely than a "good birth." > > Therefore, good deeds tend to avoid many such perils. The above quote is > apparently setting up a "lack of virtue" vs "virtue" scenario. That's my take. > I know you were only clarifying, so I am not having a go at you here, but I wonder why it is excusable to have a view of a future? Is that not a view of the type "I will be", the dreaded eternalism? Herman #71176 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Virtue egberdina Hi Robert A, On 26/04/07, Robert wrote: > > > rebirth and continued wandering in samsara. > The question was what is the peril that lurks in death? Rebirth is not a consequence of death, though, is it? Rebirth is a consequence of craving. And there ought not to be a special significance in death, because in Buddhism death is just another moment in life. It seems to me that the peril is in life. Herman #71177 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and Robert) - > > In a message dated 4/26/07 8:52:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > However, if Robert or anyone else maintains that moral shame over > > having broken a moral code is accompanied by a pleasant mental > > feeling, then they are hopelessly foolish! They have no common sense > > and believe something just because it is written in a book. > > Sophocles' Oedipus has Oedipus so filled with unpleasant feeling when > > he finds out that he has killed his father and has had four children > > with his mother, that he gouges his eyes out. This is believable > > because moral shame is an unpleasant feeling! > > > ======================== Howard: This was my sole point - that shame at having acted immorally is > unpleasant. This is about as clear as could possibly be. At the same time, such > shame is proper and moral and kusala. It's absence would be perverse and akusala. > >Howard prior post: > IMO, shame at having been immoral and fear of being so are unpleasant, > and they are also kusala. ________ Dear Howard and James, All kusala citta comes with pleasant or neutral feeling - according to the texts of Abhidhmma. By the reasoning that this type of shame (dosa in pali) is kusala, then the more unpleasant the feeling the more the kusala. And the more frequent one has such regret the more one is developing kusala.I would think your example of Oeidpus supports that belief. However, the shame he was feeling was not kusala: in fact there was no hiri and otappa, thus the feelings were unpleasant, rooted in dosa. It was mea culpa, selfish regret. As it happens , according to Abhidhamma, unpleasant feeling and akusala regret can be a condition for one to be more careful in the future- one doesn't want to endure those painful feelings again. Thus akusala can be a condition for kusala. Hence the common idea that such regret is a good thing. Robert #71178 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Agreeable and Disagreeable scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for the reply; sorry for the delay. Sarah: "...The dosa and domanassa arise mainly due to our accumulations for such, i.e by pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support condition). An arahant experiences the former - e.g. (unpleasant bodily feeling) conditioned by kamma, but not the latter domanassa...I'd say that the object, e.g. visible object or sound or tangible object is itself intrinsically agreeable or disagreeable. Kusala vipaka (and conascent mental factors) experiences intrinsically agreeable, while akusala vipaka experiences intrinsically disagreeable objects. In the case of seeing, hearing, smelling and tasting, the conascent feeling is actually neutral...We can make generalisations (as even the Abhidhamma texts do), but we cannot know for sure (and there's no point in trying to know) whether at any given moment the sound or taste experienced is intrinsically desirableor not..." Scott: So, the only object of experience for kusala-vipaaka-citta is an intrinsically agreeable one, and the only object of experience for akusala-vipaaka-citta is an intrinsically disagreeable one. At the level of pure experience, without thinking and categorising, this is known. This hermetic circularity is always seen in Dhamma. It demonstrates anatta to me. Thinking later, based on post javana akusala-citta, can be mistaken about the intrinsic valence of an object. Its agreeableness or disagreeableness will be determined solely by virtue of whether vipaaka-citta is kusala or akusala, and never by what I am thinking about an experience later. Sarah: "...Again, we can only generalise. Hearing only ever hears sound and this may be agreeable or disagreeable at any given instant. For example, someone may be speaking about the Dhamma but in a very loud or gruff voice. It depends on vipaka at any moment whether it is desirable or undesirable sound heard. Usually when we consider/read about the great value in hearing the Dhamma, it refers to the cittas with wisdom which attend..." Scott: I like this, 'hearing only ever hears sound'. What would citta with wisdom take as object in the case of hearing sound which later is rendered as 'loud or gruff voice speaking about the Dhamma'? The 'speaking about Dhamma' must be a function of later mind-door processes and involving thinking or thoughts as object. Sarah: "...Yes, miccha ditthi can arise with either the sense-door or mind-door javana cittas. So, instead of attending wisely, there is attending unwisely. So the sounds heard in this case are not of value at all. Or take a cat in the room - maybe kusala vipaka, but no wise attending, no 'hearing the Dhamma'. It always comes back to the citta, the present citta as Ken H was stressing when he said 'the world is a moment of consciousness...Sila, dana and bhavana, if they exist at all, exist in one moment of consciousness.' I thought that was rather deep..." Scott: Yeah, it was. Where does yoniso manasikaara come into play in the process? Sarah: "...yes, this relates to what I said above. We need to be clear what the object is in an ultimate sense - it is sound, visible object and so on. What is experienced is determined by kamma primarily... Generally for most (average) men, hearing thunder is akusala vipaka, the experiencing of undesirable sounds. But for some, with hearing defects, for example, it may not be so...Exactly. Only vipaka is the final 'arbiter', not our judgments or generalisations." Scott: I guess, since vipaaka is the final arbiter, and since vipaaka is conditioned by past kamma, there is less incentive to think too much about this. It'll unfold. Sincerely, Scott. #71179 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for the reply. H: "No, it's not the bhavanga citta that reveals things, the bhavanga citta can be revealed. Like our innermost beliefs, that drive us without us knowing that we are driven by them, can be revealed." Scott: Here, I think, you might be referring to bhavanga-sota, which I take to be conceptual. (Bhavanga-citta, which is vipaaka, is the reality). And here, given that I'm reading you correctly, you refer to the concept of unconscious process. If so, then you are saying that it is possible to become aware of unconscious motivations. While this is true, I think we are dealing here with a) concepts, b) concepts about self, and, c) thinking. And, I think, you are using all this as an analogy. H: "Panna, or self-analysis, or both." Scott: Two very different things. I don't think you're equating them. Again ultimate (pa~n~na) versus conventional ('self-analysis'). H: "This is were we start to diverge. You may have noticed a recent thread called "Orgasm". Avoid that thread at all costs. It is my worst effort at trying to convey something meaningful. But thanks for the opportunity to express again what I meant there, and hopefully it will come out a bit more coherent. Just to start of with, I would like to juxtapose orgasm, the experience, and the book written about it. I would say that any notions of correspondence between an orgasm and the book "Orgasm" are entirely mind-made." Scott: Actually, I got it; it wasn't so bad. Reading about coming and coming are two very different things. Me: "I'm saying that there is Dhamma." H: "Yes, if Dhamma is the way things can be." Scott: Just a point here. I'd say Dhamma is the way things are as well. H: "The book about the way things can be, and the way things can be, correspond because a mind makes them correspond. There is absolutely no orgasm in the book about it, and there is absolutely no Dhamma in the other book. This I define as Dhamma, and here we seem to diverge. Dhamma, the teachings of a Buddha, are thus and so and not otherwise and the texts, which reflect Dhamma, can be apprehended in a way which corresponds to Dhamma or they can be misunderstood. The book about orgasm can never be understood until you have one (an orgasm, that is, not the book). In the same way, the book about the way things can be can never be understood until it has become that way." Scott: I mined this out of the stacks (from Nina): "...The second meaning given of dhamma is pariyatti: the wording of the teachings as contained in the Tipitaka. We read in the "Dhammapada Atthakataa 1.22: Dhamma.m vo, bhikkhave, desessaami aadikalyaa.nan"ti (ma. ni. 3.420) aya.m desanaadhammo naama. I shall teach you, monks, Dhamma that is beautiful in the beginning (middle and end), this is the dhamma of teaching. "Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacce kulaputtaa dhamma.m pariyaapu.nanti sutta.m geyyan"ti (ma. ni. 1.239) Here, monks, some men of a good family learn thoroughly the dhamma: sutta, geyya, etc. aya.m pariyattidhammo naama. This is the dhamma which is the wording of the teachings. And the word dhamma is used in the sense of scriptural text (pariyatti), virtue (gu.na), absence of an entity, living thing (nissatta, nijjiva), etc." Scott: I'd say orgasm exists with or without books. I'd say things are the way things are with or without a Buddha. But, and I think this is important, I'd say a Buddha and the teachings of a Buddha are essential. I'm not sure you're saying they are not, but you might be saying that they correspond less to reality than I think they do. I think the Teachings of a Buddha are central and not to be minimized. H: "There is no verbal description of an orgasm that any amount of panna can constitute into the experience." Scott: I know this is an analogy, but pa~n~na wouldn't have 'orgasm' as object would it? Maybe 'orgasm' is, at its momentary level, merely kusala-vipaaka-citta. I don't know. H: "I take the texts as recipe books, as instructions for baking cakes, descriptions of difficulties encountered while trying to follow the instructions, how to overcome those difficulties, and descriptions of the cakes that arise should you succeed in following those recipes. Just like a book on orgasm that doesn't describe what is necessary in order to arrive at the experience would be as useless as an ashtray on a motorbike, so a book about the way things can be that doesn't prescribe the methods for getting there would be useless. What I am saying is that the tipitaka as a set of beautiful texts to study, is useless, and a self-serving exercise. Because, in effect, one is remaining ignorant that one is studying their own bhavanga citta, which is the basis for finding the text so beautiful to start of with." Scott: That would be bhavanga-sota. I'm likely missing your point here but I don't equate studying the texts with studying my self. Although I'm aware of the conceptual notion of distortion of perception via projection - which seems to me to be what you are discussing - I think you are taking this too far. Can you say more about this part of it - the 'reading' of the self taken for a 'reading' of texts? H: "Amen to that. We agree. (If you see the teaching as a method to achieve a goal)" Scott: I think 'method' could be qualified but I think I know what you mean here. Sincerely, Scott. #71180 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] He drove that one right onto the Green egberdina Thanks, Colette, On 26/04/07, colette wrote: > > > Herman, > I must say, TOUCHE. You've obviously caught this one off guard. Who > knows where those IDOL hands may've been. ;-) > > No slice involved at all, you made that ball a ROCKET, a straight > shot. Wonderful positioning. > You've made me feel a whole lot better about my golf game :-) BTW, I find you an amazing person. There doesn't seem to be a topic with which you are not conversant. You always make for fascinating reading. Thanx Herman #71181 From: connie Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:02 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (52) nichiconn dear friends, continuing the story of << KHEMA, daughter of the King's family at Sagala in Magadha, wife of King Bimbisara, Rajagaha, foremost of the Sisters who were distinguished for insight (AN i. 25), ranked by the Buddha as a model Sister (SN ii. 236) >> (Mrs. RD) "Iddhiisu ca vasii aasi.m, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; cetopariya~naa.nassa, vasii caapi bhavaamaha.m. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi daani punabbhavo. "Atthadhammaniruttiisa, pa.tibhaane tatheva ca; parisuddha.m mama ~naa.na.m, uppanna.m buddhasaasane. "Kusalaaha.m visuddhiisu, kathaavatthuvisaaradaa; abhidhammanaya~n~nuu ca, vasippattaamhi saasane. "Tato tora.navatthusmi.m, ra~n~naa kosalasaaminaa; pucchitaa nipu.ne pa~nhe, byaakarontii yathaatatha.m. I am a master of the supernormal powers, and through the divine ear element I have become a master of the knowledge of the state of mind of others. I know my previous existences. The divine eye has been purified. All my taints have been consumed. Now there is no renewed existence [for me]. And I truly possess comprehension of meaning, states, and language. Pure knowledge of the teaching of the Buddha has arisen in me. I am skillful in the purities, proficient in the Kathaavatthu, and knowledgeable in the Abhidhamma method. I have attained mastery in the teaching. After that, when I [was residing] in Tora.navatthu, the king, the ruler of Kosal, asked me subtle questions which I answered correctly. "Tadaa sa raajaa sugata.m, upasa"nkamma pucchatha; tatheva buddho byaakaasi, yathaa te byaakataa mayaa. "Jino tasmi.m gu.ne tu.t.tho, etadagge .thapesi ma.m; mahaapa~n~naanamaggaati, bhikkhuniina.m naruttamo. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. Then the king approached the Sublime One and asked [the same questions]. And the Buddha answered them just as I had answered. Then the Conqueror, the Best of Men, being pleased with this quality [of mine], placed me as foremost among the bhikkhuniis, saying, "She is foremost in great wisdom." My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. arahatta.m pana patvaa phalasukhena nibbaanasukhena ca viharantiyaa imissaa theriyaa satipi a~n~naasa.m khii.naasavattheriina.m pa~n~naavepullappattiya.m tattha pana kataadhikaarataaya mahaapa~n~naabhaavo paaka.to ahosi; tathaa hi na.m bhagavaa jetavanamahaavihaare ariyaga.namajjhe nisinno pa.tipaa.tiyaa bhikkhuniyo .thaanantare .thapento "etadagga.m, bhikkhave, mama saavikaana.m bhikkhuniina.m mahaapa~n~naana.m yadida.m khemaa"ti (a. ni. 1.235-236) Then having attained Arahatship, while this therii was dwelling in the happiness of the fruition state and in the happiness of quenching, and while there was the acquisition of a diversity of virtues by other theriis who had destroyed their taints and attained abundant wisdom, she became well known there because of her great wisdom and because she had done the prerequisite work. Thus, when the Blessed One was seated in the great monastery in Jeta Grove in the midst of a group of noble ones, he placed the bhikkhuniis in order according to special positions, and he placed her in the foremost position because of her great wisdom, saying: "Bhikkhus, the foremost among my disciples who are bhikkhuniis of great wisdom is Khemaa." === more later, connie #71182 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Virtue avalo1968 Hello Herman, What you say is true, but I believe the teachings on Metta speak of a peaceful death and a favorable rebirth as benefits of this practice. Of course, there ought not be special significance in death, but I doubt I am at the point where it will be just another mind moment for me. With metta, Robert A. > > It seems to me that the peril is in life. Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (33) #71183 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:17 am Subject: Conditions, Preface, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Hearing is conditioned by sound which impinges on the earsense. Both sound and earsense are rúpas which also arise because of their own conditions and therefore, they have to fall away. Thus, the reality they condition, hearing, cannot last either, it also has to fall away. Each conditioned reality can exist just for an extremely short moment. When we understand this it will be easier to see that there is no self who can exert control over realities. How could we control what falls away immediately? When we move our hands, when we walk, when we laugh or cry, when we are attached or worried, there are conditions for such moments. The Pa.t.thaana helps us to understand the deep underlying motives for our behaviour and the conditions for our defilements. It explains, for example, that kusala can be the object of akusala citta. For instance, on account of generosity which is wholesome, attachment, wrong view or conceit, which are unwholesome realities, can arise. The Pa.t.thaana also explains that akusala can be the object of kusala, for example, when akusala is considered with insight. This is an essential point which is often overlooked. If one thinks that akusala cannot be object of awareness and right understanding, the right Path cannot be developed. The enumerations and classifications in the Pa.t.thaana may, at first sight, seem dry and cumbersome, but when they are carefully considered it can be seen that they deal with realities of daily life. The study of the Abhidhamma can become very lively and interesting if our knowledge is applied in our own situation. It can be understood more clearly that kusala citta and akusala citta arise because of different conditions. One may doubt whether it is helpful to know details about realities and their conditions. When we know that there isn't anything we can control, will that change our life? It is beneficial to have less ignorance about ourselves. Defilements cannot be eradicated immediately, there will still be sadness, worry and frustration. However, when it is more clearly understood that realities arise because of their own conditions there will be less inclination to try to do what is impossible: to change what has arisen because of conditions. When there is more understanding one will be less obsessed by one's experiences, there will be more patience. The Pa.t.thaana clarifies how accumulations of good and bad qualities are conditions for the arising of kusala and akusala in the future. Thus, the study of the Pa.t.thaana can encourage us to develop understanding together with all good qualities. Conditions can be accumulated which lead to direct understanding of realities and eventually to enlightenment. ****** Nina. #71184 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:23 am Subject: Perfections N, 20 nilovg Dear friends, The Buddha is called the "Tathagata", and this word has several meanings. The commentary to the Cariyãpitaka gives different explanations of this word in order to show different aspects of the qualities of the Buddha. "Tathagata" is explained as "thus come". As soon as the Bodhisatta was born in his last life he went the same way as the previous Buddhas. "Thus come" shows the advent of a Buddha to be. He arrived at his goal through the same course as the Buddhas of the past. "Tathagata" is also explained as "thus gone". Gone refers to the Bodhisatta’s deportment at birth, when he took seven strides and surveyed the world in all directions, exclaiming that he was the chief, the best and the eldest in the world and that this was his last birth. "Gone" also refers to the movement of his knowledge. This implies the development of his wisdom culminating in final deliverance. The third explanation of "Tathagata" is: "come to the real characteristic", and this refers to his discovery of the real characteristics of all dhammas. The next explanation of "Tathagata" is: "awakened to real dhammas". This refers to his realization of the four noble Truths and the Dependent Origination. The following explanation of "Tathagata" is: "seer of the real", and this discloses the scope of his knowledge, the analytical precision of it and its all-encompassing range. The Buddha is called the "Tathagata" because he is the speaker of the real. This refers to the truth of every utterance of the Buddha, from the night of his enlightenment until his parinibbãna. The Buddha is called the "Tathagata" because he practises what he teaches. His conduct is in accordance with his teaching. The Buddha is called the "Tathagata" in the sense of vanquishing or surpassing. He is unequalled as to virtue and wisdom. He is unique, incomparable. The word "Tathagata" designates all the qualities of the Buddha. We cannot grasp the Buddha’s wisdom. We can only acquire some understanding of it if we practise what he taught. We read in "As it was said" (Itivuttaka, Book of the Threes, Ch 5, Part 3): - Monks, even if a monk should seize the hem of my garment and walk behind me step for step, yet if he be covetous in his desires, fierce in his longing, malevolent of heart, of mind corrupt, careless and unrestrained, not quieted but scatterbrained and uncontrolled in sense, that monk is far from me and I am far from him. What is the cause of that? Monks, that monk sees not Dhamma. Not seeing Dhamma he sees not me. Monks, even though a monk should dwell a hundred yoyanas away, yet if he be not covetous in his desires, not fierce in his longing, not malevolent of heart, not of mind corrupt, but with mindfulness set up and composed, calmed, one-pointed in mind and restrained in sense,— then indeed that one is near to me and I am near to him. What is the cause of that? Monks, that monk sees Dhamma. Seeing Dhamma he sees me. ******* Nina. #71185 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? nilovg Hi Howard, I think we have to differentiate between a situation and between the cittas arising at each moment. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas alternate and this is very intricate. Hiri arises with kusala citta and then the danger of akusala is seen. In between there are bound to be akusala cittas with dosa, with disappointment in oneself and then there is also unhappy feeling. One may reason with kusala citta: next time I should not do this evil. When we use the word shame in conventional language it usually describes a whole situation, but reality is much more complex. Unhappy feeling never accompanies kusala citta. Kusala citta is either accompanied by happy feeling or by indifferent feeling. Nina. Op 27-apr-2007, om 3:08 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > This was my sole point - that shame at having acted immorally is > unpleasant. This is about as clear as could possibly be. At the > same time, such > shame is proper and moral and kusala. It's absence would be > perverse and akusala. #71186 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? nilovg Dear James, see my post to Howard. i hope this can clarify. Nina. Op 27-apr-2007, om 7:49 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > However, what does the Abhidhamma have to say > about the feeling of remorse, shame, guilt, etc. which lasts for a > long time after the moral code has been transgressed? Surely this is > an unpleasant feeling....does it accompany Hiri and Ottappa? What > does the Abhidhamma say in this regard. #71187 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:41 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? scottduncan2 Dear Nina and All Concerned. Regarding: N: "I think we have to differentiate between a situation and between the cittas arising at each moment..." Scott: I think that this is the very heart of the matter. Sincerely, Scott. #71188 From: han tun Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:54 am Subject: Daana Corner (46) hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, We have come to the last essay compiled by Bhikkhu Bodhi: The Perfection of Giving (Acariya Dhammapala). It is being presented in 7 parts. The following is 4 of 7 parts. Questions, comments and different views welcome:-) ------------------------------ The giving of the Dhamma is an unperverted discourse on the Dhamma given with an undefiled mind; that is, methodical instruction conducive to good in the present life, to good in the life to come, and to ultimate deliverance. By means of such discourses, those who have not entered the Buddha's Dispensation enter it, while those who have entered it reach maturity therein. This is the method: In brief, he gives a talk on giving, on virtue, and on heaven, on the unsatisfactoriness and defilement in sense pleasures, and on the benefit in renouncing them. In detail, to those whose minds are disposed towards the enlightenment of disciples (savakabodhi) he gives a discourse establishing and purifying them (in progress towards their goal) by elaborating upon the noble qualities of whichever among the following topics is appropriate: going for refuge, restraint by virtue, guarding the doors of the sense-faculties, moderation in eating, application to wakefulness, the seven good dhammas; application to serenity (samatha) by practicing meditation on one of the thirty-eight objects (of serenity meditation); application to insight (vipassana) by contemplating the objects of insight-interpretation such as the material body; the progressive stages of purification (visuddhipatipada), the apprehension of the course of rightness (sammattagahana), the three kinds of clear knowledge (vijja), the six kinds of direct knowledge (abhiñña), the four discriminations (patisambhida), and the enlightenment of a disciple. So too, for beings whose minds are disposed towards the enlightenment of paccekabuddhas and of perfectly enlightened Buddhas, he gives a discourse establishing and purifying them in the two vehicles (leading to these two types of enlightenment) by elaborating upon the greatness of the spiritual power of those Buddhas, and by explaining the specific nature, characteristic, function, etc., of the ten paramis in their three stages. Thus the Great Man gives the gift of the Dhamma to beings. When he gives a material gift, the Great Man gives food thinking: "May I, by this gift, enable beings to achieve long life, beauty, happiness, strength, intelligence, and the supreme fruit of unsullied bliss." He gives drink wishing to allay the thirst of sensual defilements; garments to gain the adornments of shame and moral dread and the golden complexion (of a Buddha); vehicles for attaining the modes of psychic potency and the bliss of Nibbana; scents for producing the sweet scent of virtue; garlands and unguents for producing the beauty of the Buddha-qualities; seats for producing the seat on the terrace of enlightenment; bedding for producing the bed of a Tathagata's rest; dwellings so he might become a refuge for beings; lamps so he might obtain the five eyes. [9] He gives visible forms for producing the fathom-wide aura (surrounding a Buddha); sounds for producing the Brahma-like voice (of a Buddha); tastes for endearing himself to all the world; and tangibles for acquiring a Buddha's elegance. Note [9] - The five eyes are the fleshly eye (mamsacakkhu); the divine eye (dibbacakkhu), by which he sees beings pass away and re-arise In accordance with their kamma; the wisdom eye (pa~n~naacakkhu), by which he sees the specific and general characteristics of things; the Buddha-eye (buddhacakkhu), by which he sees the propensities and dispositions of beings; and the universal eye (samantacakkhu), his knowledge of omniscience. To be continued. metta, Han #71189 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: best wishes to all upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Nidhi) - In a message dated 4/27/07 12:36:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > All, this is another message from Nidhi sent to the mods account in > response to our off-list note at the bottom of it. I'm sure any > encouragement will be welcomed! S. > ====================== > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 3:41:21 AM > > dear sarah > > thanks for forwarding my mail. i would surely visit the site. if there is > any specific thing i can share i would surely love to do that. as long as > joining DSG is concerned, i think i m a misfit there. to me mere talking > about dhamma is of no worth. i have been through the phase when i couldnt > meditate, but sutta brought me to meditation again, i would like to > explain how. may be it helps someone. > > 1) take any sutta where buddha gives instructions (as in some sutta there > are reflections of buddha, we must leave those sutta). > 2) watch that sutta within for sometime. understand how things work in our > mind or body. that is read with contemplation or meditation if possible. > 3) do this only for some days. in between dont read other suttas. (its > very important). > 4)watch very closely, very patiently, consistently. Enquiry within oneself > is the key to success. > 5) the approach must be of a scientist+compassion for all beings. i mean > we must investigate why clinging arises in human beings (not me). > > its good to choose a sutta where instructions are easily implementable, > and dont belong to very higher things. we are learning ABCD compared to > lord buddha's standards, so i feel we must not look at what he talks about > Phd. level. at that level very subtle things appear, and we have to care > for very subtle things, but at our level we have to start with gross. so > effortlessness is a subtle thing, but at our level we have to make some > effort. we are learning writing alphabets, we must not talk about > calligraphy. > > if we do it for some time mind settles and becomes fit for formal > meditation. > whatever i have shared above, i work this way and i devised this my own > self. so please use ur own discretion. however it has worked quite fine > for me so far. i wish it would work for you as well. > > i m quite weak in correct framing of words, so if u need any > clarification, please feel free to ask. > > with best wishes > nidhi > ***** > > > Sarah and Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dear Nidhi, > > We've forwarded your message to DSG. Pls look there for replies. We > greatly appreciate your sharing of your Dhamma views and practice. Pls > reconsider and continue to share more. Dhamma is the greatest dana! > > Best wishes, > > Jon &Sarah > ========================= Sarah, thank you for your forwardings of Nidhi's posts. The remainder of what I write here is addressed to him. Nidhi, as one of the crew of "intrepid, DSG misfits" ;-)), I encourage you to stick around, participating only as much as you wish and in exactly the fashion that you wish! Your approach to sutta study and your sincere love of the Dhamma impress me mightily. I think that all here have benefited greatly from your presence, and I hope it continues. There is a mix of "types" of Buddhist on DSG, and I have found that discussions among these different "camps" have been beneficial to me, by letting me see from fresh (to me) perspectives, sometimes resulting in a slight modification of my understanding, sometimes reinforcing, sharpening, and deepening my already-existent understanding. I've been a member of DSG for years, and throughout all that time I've been a dedicated meditator and practitioner of all aspects of what I see as a magnificent training program laid out by the Buddha. So, based on my history, there need be no fear in maintaining membership on DSG of losing what you (and I and numerous others here) understand to be the Dhamma. I am truly impressed by your approach to the Dhamma and to sutta study. It reminds me, BTW, of an approach taught by a certain American Theravadin monk I know, and whom I have considerable admiration for. In any case, Nidhi, I think you will find a good-size, somewhat disparate group of like-minded Buddhists here with whom you can interact easily and learn much, and will also find that the rest of the membership consists of genuinely good and kind folks - really good friends - dedicated to the Dhamma and who are very bright and very well versed in the Tipitaka and the Theravadin commentaries. From these good and bright people you can learn much in the way of textual material, and you can deepen and sharpen your Dhamma understanding by conversing with them. At times - many times - it can be exasperating, I find, but most worthwhile. So, for several reasons, please consider retaining your subscription to DSG. With metta, Howard #71190 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? To James. upasaka_howard Hi, Herman (and Rob K) - In a message dated 4/27/07 2:51:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > > > > I hope I didnt give the impression that all pleasant feeling is > > kusala. This is of course not so, as all craving, clinging and lust > > comes with pleasant or neutral feeling. > > > > I am quite surprised to read this. I experience craving / lust as > unpleasant. It is the satisfaction of the craving which I experience > as pleasant. Perhaps craving / lust is used differently to how I use > it? > > ===================== Yes, I also experience craving as unpleasant. And that, in fact, shows a basic way in which we humans are so perverse, as we engage in that unpleasant mental activity very, very frequently!! As I see it, craving is unpleasant and immediately productive of suffering, and the pleasure of momentarily attaining what was craved lies not only in its attaining, but at least as much in the concomitant release of the suffering engendered by the craving! Dukkha arises again, of course, at the subsequent loss of what was craved, and so it goes - on, and on, and on, tossed about on samsaric waves like so much ocean wreckage. With metta, Howard #71191 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Atta views: suffering and/or happiness upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 4/27/07 3:05:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > On 26/04/07, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Is not the alleged soul of anything an unchanging essence, core, or > > identity in that thing - it's self? Why apply the notion of atta only to > the > > conglomerate that is the conventional person? > > When the Buddha says "Sabbe dhamma anatta," if 'anatta' doesn't mean > > "without self" in the aforementioned general sense, doesn't the Buddha's > > statement become odd in many cases? Is it surprising or novel that > hardness has no > > soul in the sense of an unchanging, eternal animating spirit? Is it deep > that > > an itch is without a soul? That water is? On the other hand, anatta in the > > sense of being empty of own being IS deep, and it applies to dhammas and > to the > > conventional person alike. > > > > I agree with you. > > Do you think that being empty of own being implies that all referring > to processes, as in referring to this person, or that dhamma, is > therefore atta-view? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: When and if any process, and any dhamma, is considered a "thing in itself" - an "entity", then, yes, that would be a species of atta-view. All reification is a form of atta-view, IMO. But, before closing, let me mention that I do think that the atta-view that countenances a *personal* self (i.e., a core of self-existence in the conventional person) is the most serious and most insidious form of atta-view. However, when processes, events, and phenomena are not considered self-existent, but as contingent and empty of own being, there need be no serious atta-view being expressed in referencing them. Of course, until ignorance has been entirely uprooted, at least some *sense* of self in "the person" and in other processes and in dhammas remains, even if diminished. Reification is a chronic illness. It is tenacious. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Herman > > ======================= With metta, Howard #71192 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Conventional / Ultimate, Potthapada. nilovg Dear Scott,(Howard at end), I can only give few Pali words. Scott: 1) 'acquired self' 2) 'the gross acquired self' 3) 'the mind-made acquired self' 4) 'the formless acquired self' ------------ N: atta-pa.tilaabho: Co states: attabhaava-pa.tilaabho. attabhaava is often translated as personalityor as the body. there are three: 1: o.laariko: the coarse one, in the case of those born in sensuous planes. (Also elaborated on in the PTS footnote: eleven planes. 2: mano-maya-attabhaava: mindmade. said of those born in the ruupa- brahma planes. 3. aruupattabhaava: said of those born in the aruupa-brahma planes. -------- Scott: 5) 'perfection of wisdom' ------- N: pa~n~naapaaripuuri.m vepullatan ti magga-pa~n~naa-phala- pa~n~naana.m paaripuuri~n c'eva vipulabhaava~nca. Vipulla: abundant. ------- S: 6) 'super-knowledge' ------- N: abhi~n~na 7) 'a doctrine for getting rid of' N: I leave this. It is about jhaana and vipassanaa. many points. Calm, piiti, etc. -------- S:8) 'names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world' ------- N: Sammuttikathaa: satto, brahmaa, etc. I wish I had more time, it is a very good text. Howard could note: khandhas are not conventional language. They are under paramattha- kathaa. Nina. Op 21-apr-2007, om 16:29 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > DN9 (Maurice Walshe) > > "...Po.t.thaapada, there are three kinds of 'acquired self': the > gross acquired self, the mind-made acquired self, the formless > acquired self. What is the gross acquired self? It has form, is > composed of the four great elements, nourished by material food. What > is the mind-made self? It has form, complete with all its parts, not > defective in any sense organ. What is the formless acquired self? It > is without form, and made up of perception. #71193 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? nilovg Dear James and Howard, what Rob says here is very helpful to understand all those different cittas and their condiitons. According to the Patthana, akusala can condition kusala later on by way of natural decisive support- condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya). You may be afraid of hell and therefore abstain from akusala. Being afraid is a form of dosa. Abstaining is kusala. Nina. Op 27-apr-2007, om 12:43 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > As it happens , according to Abhidhamma, unpleasant feeling and > akusala regret can be a condition for one to be more careful in the > future- one doesn't want to endure those painful feelings again. Thus > akusala can be a condition for kusala. Hence the common idea that > such regret is a good thing. #71194 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: best wishes to all wisdomcompas... hi robert, i m not sure which verses u are talking about.but if something deeply touches u then u can extend it into a meditation.i call recall some stories of monks who did that. but i personally think that reflections are mostly not watchable as they are result of insight.i have grew up in a tradition where i could find profound reflections. but seeing changes the mind totally. the pattern of mind changes after seeing. and what i really liked about buddha's teaching is that he spoke for 45 years of "how to do" it. otherwise the knowledge of anicca, dukkha, attachment, enlightnement,the whole world is conditioned and even that all the lokas are in each one of us ; was available before buddha as well. and saints after buddha have also spoke about it. but what makes buddha stand out totally different was that he taught "how" he became buddha, and nothing else. i couldn't find such information anywhere else. and i really value buddhist literature as one finds everything under one roof. with metta, nidhi **************************** > Nidhi, > > Thank you for the interesting message. I will work with your advice > in my own practice. > > I am thinking that the same approach might be usefully applied with > just a few verses of the Dhammapada. What do you think? > > You need not worry about your English. Your writing was very clear. > > With Metta, > > Robert A. > #71195 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 4/27/07 9:37:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I think we have to differentiate between a situation and between the > cittas arising at each moment. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas > alternate and this is very intricate. Hiri arises with kusala citta > and then the danger of akusala is seen. In between there are bound to > be akusala cittas with dosa, with disappointment in oneself and then > there is also unhappy feeling. One may reason with kusala citta: next > time I should not do this evil. > When we use the word shame in conventional language it usually > describes a whole situation, but reality is much more complex. > Unhappy feeling never accompanies kusala citta. Kusala citta is > either accompanied by happy feeling or by indifferent feeling. > Nina. > ======================== This is an excellent answer, Nina! :-) With metta, Howard #71196 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James, and Rob) - In a message dated 4/27/07 10:49:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear James and Howard, > what Rob says here is very helpful to understand all those different > cittas and their condiitons. According to the Patthana, akusala can > condition kusala later on by way of natural decisive support- > condition (pakatupanissaya paccaya). You may be afraid of hell and > therefore abstain from akusala. Being afraid is a form of dosa. > Abstaining is kusala. > Nina. > ========================= Yes, I very much see the matter this way. In the past, however, some folks have argued with me over this, saying for example that any conditions beset by sense of self cannot lead to kusala conditions in the future,and using that argument as a basis for arguing against intentional practice. There has been the claim that akusala cannot lead to kusala, which I do not accept, it being clearly contradicited by experience. With metta Howard #71197 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Perfections N, no 18 moellerdieter Hi Nina, thanks for your answer. Leaving the commentary for a later opportunity I like refer to your comments: ''As we discussed meditation has several meanings. Not running away from the real is to be remembered, I think.' D: real understood to be relative to one's state of consciousness /citta /mind ? N: Of course this leaves room too for those who have skills to develop jhaana. D: I am not sure what you mean by ' those' ... running away from the real? N: There is a difference to be noted: one has accumulated the skill for calm which is temporary freedom from the hindrances' D: the goodies of bhavana , aren't they ?..;-) N: Or: one clings to an idea of tranquillity, but does not know that true calm means freedom from defilements, detachment, not clinging. D: seems to me like the snake bites its tail N: But I believe that one should scrutinize one's citta all the time: is there desire to prepare oneself for satipatthana in order to have a quicker result? This may be motivated by lobha or by wrong view of self. One does not accept that there is no self who can bring about sati. D: I agree with the need to scrutinize one's citta ..actually exercise chapter 3 of the Maha Satipatthana sutta. but don't follow to connect that with loba ( it takes places 'after putting away wordly greed ...') . So coming back to my question concerning '''If one tells oneself that one should become calm first before there can be mindfulness of the present reality there is clinging to calm already and then there is akusala citta.' I think one needs to tell oneself to become calm first because to remind about the monkey nature of our day-to day mind . It is the daily routine from which we need to have a break in order to contemplate, to be aware of what is indeed going on in the Here - and Now and to that the present mind situation is belonging too (besides body, feelings ,dhamma/mindobjects) As I understand there is no clinging to calm , because it is the clinging - especially kama tanha which hinders to be calm...hence nothing of akusala ... with Metta Dieter #71198 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? nilovg Hi Howard, I remember, and also what you explained: it does not matter if we begin to practise with an idea of self. Akusala can lead to kusala. But here, I think, the matter is different. If one starts with the wrong view of self one accumulates more of it and how could that be right? Nina. Op 27-apr-2007, om 16:59 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > There has > been the claim that akusala cannot lead to kusala, which I do not > accept, it > being clearly contradicited by experience. #71199 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:23 am Subject: Perfections N, no 18 nilovg Dear Dieter, ------------- ''As we discussed meditation has several meanings. Not running away from the real is to be remembered, I think.' D: real understood to be relative to one's state of consciousness / citta /mind ? ----------- N: Not running away from the dhamma presenting itself at that moment. We read further on: the --------- N: There is a difference to be noted: one has accumulated the skill for calm which is temporary freedom from the hindrances' D: the goodies of bhavana , aren't they ?..;-) --------- N: We read in this Co: Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]. Preliminary practice connected with the mundane path of mindfulness is pointed out by the commentator here. ---------- N: vikkhambhana pahaana: temporary suspension of the hindrances by jhaana. And tadanga pahaana: by insight.Overcoming by opposites: the idea of self will be overcome by the contemplation of anatta, etc. . Having overcome: not by mundane satipatthaana. see above: there has to be first the mundane path of mindfulness. Only lokuttara magga can overcome all defilements. Satipatthana is mundane, and its fruit will eventually be the eradication of defilements. Note: the world is nama and rupa, or the five khandhas. --------- N: Or: one clings to an idea of tranquillity, but does not know that true calm means freedom from defilements, detachment, not clinging. D: seems to me like the snake bites its tail ------- N: I do not get you here. ------- N: But I believe that one should scrutinize one's citta all the time: is there desire to prepare oneself for satipatthana in order to have a quicker result? This may be motivated by lobha or by wrong view of self. One does not accept that there is no self who can bring about sati. D: I agree with the need to scrutinize one's citta ..actually exercise chapter 3 of the Maha Satipatthana sutta. but don't follow to connect that with loba ( it takes places 'after putting away wordly greed ...') . ------- N: That is not possible. Desire also includes wrong view, and satipatthana is developed in order to overcome wrong view, not after having overcome it. That makes no sense. Also lobha has to be investigated and understood as it is in no. 3. The lobha that arises, or the wrong vioew that arises. --------- D: So coming back to my question concerning '''If one tells oneself that one should become calm first before there can be mindfulness of the present reality there is clinging to calm already and then there is akusala citta.' --------- D: I think one needs to tell oneself to become calm first because to remind about the monkey nature of our day-to day mind . .... As I understand there is no clinging to calm , because it is the clinging - especially kama tanha which hinders to be calm...hence nothing of akusala ... ------- N: Also clinging and all other akusala has to be known according to the sutta. Everyone can only find out for himself when there is clinging and when not. One can find out whether it is true or not that there are many more akusala cittas in a day than kusala cittas. Nina.