#72200 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu May 17, 2007 10:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' TGrand458@... Hi Nina In a message dated 5/17/2007 12:47:01 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG, Awareness is different from thinking. The object of awareness is not a concept, but a characteristic that can be directly experienced. .................................................. TG: Rereading you post, you did say "knowing" regarding rupa and not thinking. I won't belabor it further. ....................................................... TG OUT Colour is not a concept, it is experienced through the eyes by seeing. If it were a concept you would have to think about it, but it can be directly experienced. There is a lot of thinking, but sometimes (I say: sometimes) there can be a beginning awareness. We know that we have to learn characteristics of nama and rupa and gradually we can become more familiar with these, without having to name them nama and rupa. Think of my Vis. quote today in Conditions: nama is quite different from rupa, they are not mixed. We have to know the truth. Nina. #72201 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu May 17, 2007 11:20 am Subject: Change and Impermanence TGrand458@... Hi All There's been some suggestion that "impermanence" is different from "change." I don't understand why myself, but in reading MN, BB is using the word "change" in his translation. For example... Regarding the 5 aggregates... "Is what is impermanent suffering or happiness? -- Suffering venerable sir. Is what is impermanent, suffering, subject to change, fit to be regarded this..." Its also been suggested that the Sutta's impermanence is somehow meant as something different than our "ordinary" idea of impermanence. The Buddha makes these following analogies... “When, Bhikkhus (Buddhist monks), a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away.â€? (The Buddha . . . The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (CDB), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 1, pg. 960 â€" 961) And, after being asked if he could describe the time period of an aeon, the Buddha said: â€" “Suppose, brother, there were a great crag, a hill one yogana wide (about 7-8 miles), one yogana across, one yogana high without chasms or clefts, a solid mass. And a man at the end of every hundred years were to stroke it once each time with a kasi cloth. Well, that mountain in this way would sooner be done away with and ended than an aeon.â€? (The Buddha . . . KS, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) “…suppose there were a seafaring ship bound with rigging that had worn out in the water for six months. It would be hauled up on dry land during the cold season and its rigging would further be attacked by wind and sun. Inundated by rain from a rain cloud, the rigging would easily collapse and rot away.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1557) TG: This all sounds like what I think of when I think of "ordinary impermanence." TG #72202 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 17, 2007 5:04 pm Subject: Re: With Regard to Mindfulness of Death: Something from the Jewish Tradition buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > In seeing the following I thought of James' series: > ______________________ > The Laughter and the Angel of Death > Midrash D’varim Rabbah 9 > ------------------------------------------------- > The Buddha pointed out that death is certain, but the time of death > uncertain, hence the urgency of Dhamma practice now. A very nice tale, and appropriate. Thanks for sharing it! Metta, James #72203 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu May 17, 2007 5:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) scottduncan2 Dear All, Apologies for the ill-chosen, graphic language used in my last post to Herman (message # 72186). I'll take more care in future. Sincerely, Scott. #72204 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 17, 2007 5:49 pm Subject: Re: DMT Corner 2 (Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence) buddhatrue Hi Herman (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I'm not sure I understand your difficulty with chemicals. It seems > uncontroversial that whatever you imagine yourself to be is dependent > on the ingestion of substances. Do you not breathe air, eat food, > drink beverages, take medications? Are you apart from any of these > things? Do you imagine that if you were injected with DMT you would > not have your concept of yourself, as you knew it, blown away? I didn't know that Herman was starting a DMT Corner. That's really funny! I had to look up DMT because I didn't know what it was. Quite interesting. I do believe that such drug experiences can give a small "taste" of enlightenment; but it is artificial and temporary. Many famous people began the Buddhist path with such drug use: Jack Kerouac, Alan Ginsberg, Alan Watts, the Beatles, etc. But, of course, they eventually find that the drug use is no substitute for the real experience. Our modern scientific world is very material-based. We try to find a material explanation for everything. There have been studies of the brain which demonstrate that chemical changes occur as a result of meditation. Some then claim that meditation isn't anything "spiritual" at all, it is just a change in chemicals in the brain. In other words, we are simply "meat machines". But, the mind (nama) and the brain (rupa) are connected; actually, the mind and the entire body are connected. A change in the chemical properties of the brain (rupa) reflects a change in the mind (nama). Rupa depends on nama. However, when psychedelic drugs like DMT are used, then there is a sudden, forced change in the brain (rupa) without any such change corresponding in the mind (nama). Alan Watts stated of DMT that it was 'like loading the Universe into a gun and firing it into your brain'. When the drug wears off though, the person achieves no significant wisdom from the experience because the mind (nama) has not changed significantly- though there may be some lingering insight. Alan Watts also said of such drug use, "When you've got the message, hang up the phone." The best way to get to alerted states of consciousness leading to wisdom and happiness is through meditation. It is more difficult and time consuming, but the results are longer lasting. Metta, James #72205 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 17, 2007 6:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) egberdina Hi Connie, > "'I shall praise the one who has fed the Leader of the World and his > Order for seven days. Hear my words: > > === > tomorrow? You eternalist, you :-) Herman #72206 From: "gazita2002" Date: Thu May 17, 2007 7:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' gazita2002 Hello Howard. again some delay, when working I have little time for posting.. > > Azita: I will use the word 'color', I can see you > > smile :-). However, I wont use 'multicolored', you may think this > > nit-picking but I think multicolor indicates a concept, or a > > thought, whereas 'color' is just that which is seen. > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > So, are you now asserting that a visible object is a single color? > BTW, what I quoted from Khun Sujin mentioned colors, plural. But, I ask you, when > do you open your eyes and see on color? Often? Or is visible object a pixel? > (Mind you, I didn't say "pixie"! ;-) azita: when I open my eyes I see color and I didnt say one color, or colors, multicolored, pixels or even pixies :-) What matters to me is that when eyes are open, visible object can be experienced. To continue to try and find out what v.o consists of, will IMHO be madness-making because until sati and panna are highly developed v.o. cannot be known by 'me'. I dont think I have much more to comment at this point Howard, so would by quite happy to finish at this stage, Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #72207 From: "colette" Date: Thu May 17, 2007 3:38 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' ksheri3 Hi TG, Nina doesn't seem to like interacting with my rants & raves so I'll address her through you. Pardon my technique, but this is a very easy and juvenile way of working with Ultimate Realities and/or Relative Realities. "Colour is not a concept" = FALSE the very first thing the mind learns of colour is it's conception which the alaya-vijnana then transmits to the eye to be aware of. It's kindof like an East German guarding an OBSCURATION. As the eye of that brain function that gives the eye it's gratification the eye is instructed, if not dictated, to be on the lookout for anything with the characteristics that corespond to being "colour". The form of "Awareness" you mention is another function of the alaya- vijnana since the storehouse consciousness directly corresponds to the subconsciousness and supersubconsciousness, and/or unconsciousness. Premenitions are said to be functions of the unconscious but this is only a function of EXPERIENCING PAST DHARMA. For instance you approach a bond fire with hot dogs and marshmellows to roast them. At first you would naturally concieve of your parental given superiority thus holding onto the hot dog or marshmellow and sticking your hand in the fire as a means of roasting the delights. After that first time of getting burned, well, I don't think you're gonna believe mommy & daddy about playing with fire and/or about how you deserve a six figure guaranteed salary simply because you were born in suburbia. gotta go, sorry for being incomplete, but at least I tried. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi TG, > Awareness is different from thinking. The object of awareness is not > a concept, but a characteristic that can be directly experienced. > Colour is not a concept, it is experienced through the eyes by > seeing. If it were a concept you would have to think about it, but it > can be directly experienced. <....> #72208 From: "Phil" Date: Thu May 17, 2007 9:31 pm Subject: Re: Mundane vs Supramundane right view, to Phil philofillet Hi Nina > I'm confused about this, becuase when I see suttas about wrong > view, it is warning about fairly basic forms of wrong view, such as > not not believing that deeds have results. (ie not believing in > kamma and vipaka.) > > ------- > > N: True, that is a very coarse wrong view. It is very dangerous, > because one believes that one can do anything one likes, killing etc. > without there being any result of one's deeds. SInce I have had recent experience with this kind of wrong view (not with respect to killing), this crude kind, it is the form that concerns me more. > But so long as we take nama and rupa as a whole we take them for > self. We have sakkaya dit.t.hi, personality belief. The latent > tendencies of ignorance and wrong view are not eradicated. The latent > tendencies are dormant in each citta and when there are conditions > they can condition the arising of akusala citta, even of a strong > degree, who knows? That is the danger of ignorance and wrong view, > the danger of being in the cycle. This is the subtler kind of wrong view that obviously has to be eradicated, but does not feel as fresh to me, as immediate to me. > > ------- > > Ph: I don't know if I've made myself clear. I don't want to "thunder" > against Acharn Sujin as you put it, and feel the need to do so > waning, but I do want to try to work out whether she is in fact > urging her students to achive supramundane path factors. I'm not > interested in supramundane path factors, or should I say they are > not immediately relevant to a person like me, I feel. And I don't > believe that being told by a teacher to achieve supramundane path > factors, or being warned by a teacher about the *immediate* danger > (rather than in the sense of not being liberated from samsara, which > is of course "dangerous", in a more profound sense) of *not* > achieving them, is at all helpful. > > ------- > > N: No, she is never urging people to become enlightened, this is a > misunderstanding you have. > > She warns people not to cling to a result, or expect to become > enlightened soon. Ph: OK, I'm sure I have many misunderstandings.I just feel there is an implicit encouragement to try to have that first insight (nama vs. rupa), to try to understand dhammas now. Despite all the talk of aeons, I think there is too much urging to understand present dhammas in a prematurely deep way. Yes, that could very well be my misunderstanding, and that's ok. The most important thing for me now at DSG is that I express my disagreements, when they arise, in a gentle, courteous tone. That is more important than convincing anyone to follow the practices recommended by the Buddha or learning this or that about parmattha dhammas. (For now, at least. I always find Han's post help me by reminding me of the gentle, non-harmful way to disagree.) Non- harmfulness is paramount in my practice these days. Nice talking with you Nina. Metta, Phil #72209 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu May 17, 2007 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' TGrand458@... Hi Colette I'm sorry but I pretty much don't understand anything in this post. TG > "Colour is not a concept" = FALSE #72210 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 17, 2007 10:16 pm Subject: Investigation as Way to Force! bhikkhu5 Friends: How can Investigation become a Way to Suprahuman Force? The Blessed Buddha once said: When a Bhikkhu develops the Ways to Force that is enriched with concentrated Investigation, constructed by effort, by thinking: In this way will my Investigation, neither be too slack nor too tense, it will neither be constricted internally nor scattered externally, then he dwells experiencing both what is in front & what is behind, what is above, so also below, so by day, so also at night! Therefore, with a mind all open & unrestricted, he develops the dazzling bright mind, which is pervaded by its own internal luminosity... However: What is Investigation that is too slack? Investigation joined with dullness is called Investigation that is too slack! What is Investigation that is too tense? Restless, hurried, agitated Investigation is called an Investigation that is too tense! What is Investigation that is constricted internally? Investigation done in laziness. This is Investigation that is constricted internally! What is Investigation that is scattered externally? Investigation that in craving & urge is directed towards the five sense pleasures. This is called Investigation that is scattered & directed externally! How does one dwell experiencing both the front & what is behind? The perception of front, back, is well attended to, & thereby well comprehended, well considered, & well known by understanding... This is Investigation that knows both what is in the front & back! How does one dwell seeing as below, so above; as above, so below? One reviews this very frame of body upwards from the soles of the feet, & downwards from the tips of the hairs, enclosed by skin, as full of many kinds of impurities: There are in this body head-hairs, body-hairs, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, bone-marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, pleura, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, vomit in the stomach, excrement, bile, lymph, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, slime, spit, snot, joint fluid, and urine...This is Investigation that is knows what is below, so also above; as above, so also below... How does one dwell as by day, so at night; as at night, so by day? Here, at night a Bhikkhu trains the Ways to Force that is enriched with concentrated Investigation, constructed by effort using the same techniques, qualities, & aspects, as he trains during the day. So does one abide as by day, so at night; as at night, so by day! And how, does one dwell with a mind that is all open & unrestricted, a dazzling bright mind, which is pervaded by its own luminosity...? Here, friends, the perception of day-light is well attended and well resolved upon by determination. It is in exactly this way that one dwell with a mind that is all open & unrestricted, a dazzling bright mind, which is pervaded by its own luminosity. Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:278] section 51: The 4 Forces: Thread 20: Analysis of the Ways. More on The Four Feet of Force (iddhi-pÄ?da): http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/iddhi_paada.htm Investigation as a Way to Force! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #72211 From: "Robert" Date: Thu May 17, 2007 11:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello Sarah, S: I enjoy your posts and use of language such as the ones on generosity. I get a little lost when you refer to the quality you are bringing to a situation and your ability to work with it. I'm not sure how this 'fits' with momentary consciousness which is anatta. I'm sure you're not talking literally, so only elaborate if you are inclined to do so. RA: Thank you for your kind words. You are quite right - my practice does not 'fit' with momentary consciousness which is anatta. That is because my experience of life is not momentary consciousness which is anatta - my experience of life is very much an experience of a self living this life and having emotions, thoughts, and sensations. I know intellectually this is not true, having read the Buddhist text, but this is why I call it theory - because it is not my *experience* of life, and I can only work with what I experience, not what I read in a book. Over time, what I experience does change as I follow this practice and I have great confidence that over time the experience and the teachings will converge. That will be enlightenment. In the meantime, I will work with what I have. S: In a nutshell, I think you look primarily for more skillful qualities in your life regardless of the 'how' or 'what'. I am most interested in the understanding of the present dhammas, regardless of the 'good' or 'bad' in a day which I think will depend on many complex conditions anyway. RA: I am very interested in causing less harm and I believe there are things you can do and practices you can follow to make that more possible. I work with whatever comes up, skillful or unskillful, good or bad in the way I understand Right Effort as described in the Noble Eightfold Path - Prevent or abandon what is unwholesome and cultivate or strengthen what is wholesome. I believe right effort is something you 'do'. In the same way, I believe you can practice Right Intention. S: Yes, you try to follow these 'instructions' to have less anger whereas I'm most interested in the development of detachment from what has arisen, whether such 'instructions' are followed or not. RA: If I was enlightened I wouldn't need the 'instructions', but at the moment I find them very useful to keep me from behaving badly in certain circumstances. We seem very far apart in our views Sarah, but I wish you well with the practice you are following. Everyone must find their own way and I think both of us have, although those two ways are two very different paths. I enjoy reading your posts - you make a sincere effort to make your view intelligible to me and I appreciate that effort. Take care, Robert A. #72212 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue buddhatrue Hi Robert (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > We seem very far apart in our views Sarah, but I wish you well with > the practice you are following. Everyone must find their own way and > I think both of us have, although those two ways are two very > different paths. I enjoy reading your posts - you make a sincere > effort to make your view intelligible to me and I appreciate that > effort. Oh brother! You know, Robert, you really must stop being so polite and magnanimous to Sarah. You're making me look bad! ;-)) (just kidding). Metta, James ps. You could start by calling Sarah a crazy liar. That always gets a good response. ;-))))))))) #72213 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 18, 2007 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts to Siila Corner (1) to Phil sarahprocter... Dear Han, Phil,(Jon & all), You're having a good discussion on MN 61, Ambala.t.thikaaraahulovaada Sutta I just have a few comments to add after Han's helpful extracts. I think it's true that there should be a lot of wise reflection on the skilful and unskilful dhammas arising during the day in order for understanding to develop. Again, I believe that there has to be an appreciation that there are only namas and rupas as a prerequisite for such understanding. Han wrote: >The Buddha concludes this sermon as follows. Tasmaatiha raahula, paccavekkhitvaa paccavekkhitvaa kaayakammam parisodhessaama paccavekkhitvaa paccavekkhitvaa vacaakammam parisodhessaama. Paccavekkhitvaa paccavekkhitvaa manokammam parisodhessaamaati evam hi vo raahula sikkhitabbannati. http://mettanet. org/tipitaka/ 2Sutta-Pitaka/ 2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima2 /061-ambalatthik a-rahulovada- p.html <...> >Han: This paragraph was translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi as follows. "Therefore, Raahula, you should train thus: 'We will purify our bodily action, our verbal action, and our mental action by repeatedly reflecting upon them.'" ------------ --------- --------- >Han: paccavekkhati = review, contemplate, reflect parisodheti = to cleanse, purify sikkhati = to learn, to train oneself The translator used the word "repeatedly" because the Buddha uttered the word "paccavekkhitvaa" twice. ***** S: I believe the Buddha was teaching Rahula about the development of mindfulness, sati here. In Nyanaponika's translation (wheel no 33), he gives a note to say that 'paccavekkhitvaa paccavekkhitvaa refers to sati (mindfulness) and yoniso manasikaaro (wise attention). Certainly it must be reflection with awareness and understanding. In the commentary to the sutta (according to Nyanaponika), 'The Boy's Questions' in Khuddakapaa.tha were given to Rahula at the same time. These questions and answers are given in order. The second one , 'Two is what?' is answered by 'Nama and Rupa'. We read in the commentary that when a bhikkhu becomes dispassionate to nama and rupa he makes and end of suffering (See also AN 10s, vii (27) 'The Great Questions). Only when satisfied with the answers to all 9 questions including that one, 'Ten is what? ' is answered with the 'Ten Unprofitable Courses of Action'. The commentary to 'The Boy's Questions' refers again to the AN sutta, saying 'Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu becomes completely dispassionate towards ten ideas (dhammas), ...he is one who makes an end of suffering here and now. What ten? The ten unprofitable courses of action...' So I think an understanding of namas and rupas is implied. I think it's also important to remember that the ten akusala kamma-patha through body, speech and mind refer to momentary cittas (or rather the cetana accompanying these cittas). The purification and training is through the reflection leading to the direct understanding of such dhammas when they arise. We read in the Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta, MN 9 (as being posted in the Sammaditthi corner): "When friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma.' The commentary adds: "Understands the unwholesome (akusalan ca pajaanaati): he understands the unwholesome called the ten courses of unwholesome kamma (action), penetrating this by way of function with the understanding which has Nibbaana as its object as 'This is suffering.' (Understands) the root of the unwholesome (akusalamulan ca pajaanaati): And he understands the unwholesome root which has become the root condition of that (unwholesome), penetrating this, in the same way, as 'This is the origin of suffering.' The same method applies here also in regard to 'the wholesome' and 'the root of the wholesome'. So, I think that the reflection (paccevekkhana) and the training about the 10 akusala kamma patha (and their opposites) go to the very core (or 'root') of the path and the 4NT to be understood by the wise at this very moment. These are just a few ideas that come to mind. Metta, Sarah ======= #72214 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 18, 2007 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' nilovg Dear Azita and Howard, very clear, Azita. It would be maddening to find out too much, more than we are apt to. Moreover, then we are thinking all the time, not seeing and awareness of seeing or colour. I hope the two of you will not finish the dialogue, it is important. Nina. Op 18-mei-2007, om 4:25 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > What matters to me is that when eyes are open, visible object can be > experienced. To continue to try and find out what v.o consists of, > will IMHO be madness-making because until sati and panna are highly > developed v.o. cannot be known by 'me'. > > I dont think I have much more to comment at this point Howard, so > would by quite happy to finish at this stage, #72215 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 18, 2007 1:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' nilovg Dear Colette and TG, You do not have to name it colour, but it has a characteristic that can be directly experienced, it appears through the eyes. A concept is an object of thought, it has no characteristic that can be directly experienced. I find it difficult to go into subconsciousness, because this is not in the Theravada teachings. Nina. Op 18-mei-2007, om 0:38 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > "Colour is not a concept" = FALSE #72216 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 18, 2007 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue sarahprocter... Hi James, (& Robert A), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Oh brother! You know, Robert, you really must stop being so polite and > magnanimous to Sarah. You're making me look bad! ;-)) (just kidding). .... S: Well you could take a few notes, James!! ... > ps. You could start by calling Sarah a crazy liar. That always gets a > good response. ;-))))))))) ... S: Oh, is that the reason you do it? Now I know!! Ok, now I'll just respond to your messages in which I see those notes are being implemented ;-))))) Btw, thanks for your further message on death and breath reflections and the good quotes. As you're discussing the same topics with Jon as in his post #72126, I'm taking a break. Meanwhile, I'm greatly appreciating all your 'Death' extracts. However our lives unfold, death is unavoidable. All the moments of consciousness are are dukkha because they fall away as soon as they've arisen. With a little understanding, there can be more dispassion towards them. Thanks again, Metta, Sarah ======== #72217 From: han tun Date: Fri May 18, 2007 1:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts to Siila Corner (1) to Phil hantun1 Dear Sarah, Excellent, excellent explanation! I have noted in particular the following points. S: I believe the Buddha was teaching Rahula about the development of mindfulness, sati here. In Nyanaponika' s translation (wheel no 33), he gives a note to say that 'paccavekkhitvaa paccavekkhitvaa refers to sati (mindfulness) and yoniso manasikaaro (wise attention). Certainly it must be reflection with awareness and understanding. S: I think it's also important to remember that the ten akusala kamma-patha through body, speech and mind refer to momentary cittas (or rather the cetana accompanying these cittas). The purification and training is through the reflection leading to the direct understanding of such dhammas when they arise. S: So, I think that the reflection (paccevekkhana) and the training about the 10 akusala kamma patha (and their opposites) go to the very core (or 'root') of the path and the 4NT to be understood by the wise at this very moment. Thank you very much. I am thinking of doubling my tuition fees to you, if you would accept. :>) Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, Phil,(Jon & all), > > You're having a good discussion on MN 61, > Ambala.t.thikaaraahulovaada > Sutta > #72218 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 18, 2007 12:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' upasaka_howard Hi, Azita - > > > azita: when I open my eyes I see color and I didnt say one color, or > colors, multicolored, pixels or even pixies :-) > What matters to me is that when eyes are open, visible object can be > experienced. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, yeah, being sighted is useful. ;-) When I consider, though, what visual experience would be like if each visible object, each entire "panorama," were a single, homogeneous color, it wouldn't be very helpful in guiding me around the neighborhood! Would be a good "light show," though. LOL! (Ah, well!) ------------------------------------------ To continue to try and find out what v.o consists of, > > will IMHO be madness-making because until sati and panna are highly > developed v.o. cannot be known by 'me'. --------------------------------------- Howard: As I recall, it's trying to know details of kamma that is associated with madness, but you can extend that if you wish. :-) ------------------------------------------------ > > I dont think I have much more to comment at this point Howard, so > would by quite happy to finish at this stage, ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure, Azita. That'll be fine. :-) -------------------------------------------- > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > azita > > ==================== With metta, Howard #72219 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Btw, thanks for your further message on death and breath reflections and > the good quotes. As you're discussing the same topics with Jon as in his > post #72126, I'm taking a break. That's okay, then when Jon gets tired you can jump back in. It's tag-team! ;-)) Glad you appreciated my joke to Robert. (There would be no way I could write like Robert....even in a million years ;-)). I will continue the series on death on Monday. Metta, James #72220 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 18, 2007 7:29 am Subject: Conditions, Intro no 5. nilovg Dear friends, The Visuddhimagga (XVII,68)defines condition, paccaya, as follows: "...When a state is indispensable to another state's presence or arising, the former is a condition for the latter. But as to characteristic, a condition has the characteristic of assisting; for any given state that assists the presence or arising of a given state is called the latter's condition. The words, condition, cause, reason, source, originator, producer, etc., are one in meaning though different in letter...." Thus, there are conditioning phenomena, paccaya-dhammas, and conditioned phenomena, paccayupanna-dhammas. In the "Paììhåna'' there is a tripartite division of realities, which can also be found elsewhere in the Abhidhamma. Realities can be: kusala (here translated as faultless), akusala (faulty) and avyåkata (indeterminate). We should remember that avyåkata comprises citta and cetasikas which are vipåka, accompanied or unaccompanied by hetus (roots) [1], kiriyacittas, accompanied or unaccompanied by hetus, rúpa and nibbåna. The "Paììhåna'' deals with twenty-four classes of conditions and it teaches in detail about the phenomena which condition other phenomena by way of these different conditions. One may wonder whether so many details are necessary. We read in "The Guide'' [2] (Netti-Ppakaraùaó, Part III, 16 Modes of Conveying, VII, Knowledge of the Disposition of Creatures' Faculties, § 587)): "Herein,the Blessed One advises one of keen faculties with advice in brief; the Blessed One advises one of medium faculties with advice in brief and detail; the Blessed One advises one of blunt faculties with advice in detail." The Buddha taught Dhamma in detail to those who could not grasp the truth quickly. People today are different from people at the Buddha's time who could attain enlightenment quickly, even during a discourse. The "Paììhåna'' does not consist of empty formulas, we have to verify the truth of conditions in our own life. ----------- Footnotes: 1. There are three cetasikas which are unwholesome roots, akusala hetus, and these are: lobha, attachment, dosa, aversion, and moha,ignorance. They arise only with akusala cittas. There are three cetasikas which are sobhana, beautiful, hetus, and these are: alobha, non-attachment, adosa, non-aversion, and amoha, non-delusion or wisdom. These can arise with kusala cittas as well as with vipåkacittas and kiriyacittas. 2. An ancient guide for commentators, from which also Buddhaghosa quoted. It is assumed that it came from India to Sri Lanka, between the 3rd century B.C. and the 5th century A.C. ********* Nina. #72221 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 18, 2007 7:29 am Subject: Perfections N, no 27, Patience. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 7 THE PERFECTION OF PATIENCE Patience, khanti, is another perfection the Bodhisatta fulfilled. He endured insults, afflictions and tortures with end-less patience since he was unshakable in his resolution to reach his goal. We usually think of patience as enduring the undesirable, but patience also endures the desirable. When there is a pleasant object lobha is bound to arise and when there is an unpleasant object dosa is bound to arise. When there is kusala citta in-stead of akusala citta there is patience. The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) gives the following definition of patience: Patience has the characteristic of acceptance; its function is to endure the desirable and the undesirable; its manifes-tation is tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they are is its proximate cause. Right understanding of nãma and rüpa which appear conditions patience, at that moment there is no attachment, no aversion. The perfection of patience has to be developed along with satipatthãna. How could the Bodhisatta have such deep-rooted, endless patience? He accumulated right understanding of realities during many lives. The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 2) explains how patience should be fortified by reflection in the right way. We read: Although this suffering arises through the wrong deeds of others, this body of mine is the field for that suffering, and the action which is its seed was sown by me alone. And: This suffering will release me from the debt of kamma. And: If there were no wrong-doers, how could I accomplish the perfec-tion of patience? And: Although he is a wrong-doer now, in the past he was my benefactor. And: A wrong- doer is also a benefactor', for he is the basis for the developing of patience. We should develop patience in the different situations of our daily life. Can there be patience when it is too cold or too hot, when things in the house are out of order, when we are in the midst of a traffic jam? At such moments we should consider, "If I do not develop patience right now there never will be any patience". We may find it difficult to see a wrong-doer as a benefactor, but we should consider our different cittas wisely. Someone who hurts us gives us the opportunity to cultivate patience. Such a situation is like a test for our patience. When we remember that we receive the result of the kamma we performed ourselves it will help us to have more endurance. In the absolute sense there are no people who hurt us, there is no self who is hurt, there are only näma and rupa which arise because of their own conditions and then fall away immediately. ------------ 1) Ven. Bodhi p. 261. 2 Ibidem, p. 281. *********** Nina. #72222 From: connie Date: Fri May 18, 2007 7:30 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) nichiconn Dhamma Mother Therii fans, part 12 of 17: "Satasahassito kappe, okkaakakulasambhavo; gotamo naama gottena, satthaa loke bhavissati. Tassa dhammesu daayaadaa, orasaa dhammanimmitaa; gotamii naama naamena, hessati satthu saavikaa. "Tassa buddhassa maatucchaa, jiivitaapaadikaa aya.m; ratta~n~nuuna~nca aggatta.m, bhikkhuniina.m labhissati. "Ta.m sutvaana pamoditvaa, yaavajiiva.m tadaa jina.m; paccayehi upa.t.thitvaa, tato kaala"nkataa aha.m. "Taavati.msesu devesu, sabbakaamasamiddhisu; nibbattaa dasaha"ngehi, a~n~ne abhibhavi.m aha.m. "'One hundred thousand world cycles form now, there will be reborn in the world the Teacher who will be named Gotama through his lineage, a descendant of the Okkaaka clan. "'At that time there will be a disciple of the Teacher named Gotamii who will be an heir to the Doctrine, a legitimate offspring of the Doctrine. "'This one will be the aunt of that Buddha, a foster mother of his life, and she will obtain preeminence for long standing among the bhikkhuniis. "I rejoiced when I heard that. Then throughout my life I served the Conqueror with the requisites. Then I died. "I was reborn in the Taavati.msa deva realm, and I surpassed all others in the ten attributes: "Ruupasaddehi gandhehi, rasehi phusanehi ca; aayunaapi ca va.n.nena, sukhena yasasaapi ca. "Tathevaadhipateyyena, adhigayha virocaha.m; ahosi.m amarindassa, mahesii dayitaa tahi.m. "Sa.msaare sa.msarantiiha.m, kammavaayusameritaa; kaasissa ra~n~no visaye, ajaayi.m daasagaamake. "Pa~ncadaasasataanuunaa, nivasanti tahi.m tadaa; sabbesa.m tattha yo je.t.tho, tassa jaayaa ahosaha.m. "Sayambhuno pa~ncasataa, gaama.m pi.n.daaya paavisu.m; te disvaana aha.m tu.t.thaa, saha sabbaahi itthibhi. "Forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tangible objects, longevity, complexion, training, and fame. "In this way I excelled in authority. I was brilliant. I was the beloved queen of the king of the immortal there. "I journeyed on in continued existences, moved on by the wind of [past] actions, and I was born during the realm of King Kaasi in a servant village. "Exaclty five hundred servants lived there at that time. I became the wife of the eldest one of them all. "The five hundred self-dependent ones entered the village on their alms round. Seeing them, all the women and I were pleased. "Puugaa hutvaava sabbaayo, catumaase upa.t.thahu.m; ticiivaraani datvaana, sa.msarimha sasaamikaa. "Tato cutaa sabbaapi taa, taavati.msagataa maya.m; pacchime ca bhave daani, jaataa devadahe pure. "Pitaa a~njanasakko me, maataa mama sulakkha.naa; tato kapilavatthusmi.m, suddhodanaghara.m gataa. "Sesaa sakyakule jaataa, sakyaana.m gharamaagamu.m; aha.m visi.t.thaa sabbaasa.m, jinassaapaadikaa ahu.m. "Forming a guild, all the women served [them] for four months and gave sets of triple robes. Then we journeyed on with our husbands. "Then passing away, we all went to the Taavati.msa realm. Now, in our final existence, I was born in the town of Devadaha. "My father was A~njanasakka and my mother was Sulakkhanaa. Then I went to the home of Suddhodana in Kapilavatthu [as his wife]. "The others were born in the Sakyan clan and came to the home of the Sakyans. I am the most eminent of them all. I am the foster mother of the Conqueror. === tbc, connie #72223 From: "nichiconn" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) nichiconn Friend Herman, > > tomorrow? > > You eternalist, you :-) > MINIMALIST! :) connie #72224 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 18, 2007 7:51 am Subject: Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' nilovg Dear Azita and Howard, may I come in again? I find this thread worth while. ------ Howard: Well, yeah, being sighted is useful. ;-) When I consider, though, what visual experience would be like if each visible object, each entire "panorama," were a single, homogeneous color, it wouldn't be very helpful in guiding me around the neighborhood! Would be a good "light show," though. LOL! (Ah, well!) ------------------------------------------ N: Do not forget the role of sa~n~naa and the fastness of the processes of eye-door, mind-door, etc. We do not have to think of V.O. as one single colour. I often asked in the past how far V.O. extended and the answer was invariably: just whatever appears through the eyesense. This should be enough. When sati sampaja~n~na arises, more will be understood. We cannot count processes, they are too fast. Howard, you may not be satisfied, you want an exact formulation. You are a mathematicus, thus, it is understandable that you are inclined to this. It has advantages and disadvantages. There are many things you formulate very carefully and precisely. But we should not stay with the definitions. --------- Azita: To continue to try and find out what v.o consists of, > > will IMHO be madness-making because until sati and panna are highly > developed v.o. cannot be known by 'me'. --------------------------------------- Howard: As I recall, it's trying to know details of kamma that is associated with madness, but you can extend that if you wish. :-) ------------------------------------------------ N: No, the Atthasaalini speaks about the Abhidhamma. We read in the "Expositor''(I,Introductory Discourse,24): "...The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental distraction..." And at another place we read that the wrong study of the Abhidhamma leads to madness. And as Azita said: v.o. cannot be known by 'me', it depends on the development of sati sampaja~n~na. Doubt may arise and this is not pa~n~naa. Can we not leave it to pa~n~naa to know realities as they are? Or do 'we' always try to know? This is very human, but when we know that it is counteractive, we may drop this attitude. We are mixing the sense-doors and the mind-door and we take for an experience through a sense-door what is an experience through the mind-door. What do you think? Nina. #72225 From: "Robert" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 8:11 am Subject: Re: Virtue avalo1968 Hello James, Thanks for your interesting suggestions: James: Oh brother! You know, Robert, you really must stop being so polite and magnanimous to Sarah. You're making me look bad! ;-)) (just kidding). Metta, James ps. You could start by calling Sarah a crazy liar. That always gets a good response. ;-))))))))) Robert A: Well, I have always thought that we all have our roles to play in these groups. Some fill the role of helping others to work with the experience of getting their buttons pushed. It sounds like you are giving Sarah some very good material to work with in this regard. For me, I have always thought my role is to write boring little posts that help the insomniacs get to sleep at night. With metta, Robert A. #72226 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 18, 2007 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/18/07 10:52:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear Azita and Howard, > may I come in again? I find this thread worth while. > ------ > Howard: > Well, yeah, being sighted is useful. ;-) > When I consider, though, what visual experience would be like if each > visible object, each entire "panorama," were a single, homogeneous > color, it > wouldn't be very helpful in guiding me around the neighborhood! Would > be a good > "light show," though. LOL! (Ah, well!) > ------------------------------------------ > N: Do not forget the role of sa~n~naa and the fastness of the > processes of eye-door, mind-door, etc. We do not have to think of > V.O. as one single colour. ------------------------------------------- Howard: In fact I do not. My point exactly is that if such were the case, we would no way see as we see. We would just see a homogeneous red "screen" followed by a white one,then a black one, then grey, then blue, etc, and this stream of visible objects would not account for our normal seeing. The only possibilities are either 1) Each visible object is what is seen when eyes are opened, and it is multicolored, or 2) Each visible object is a single point-pixel, and the mind then *constructs* a "scene" from a seqence of such pixels. As I recall, choice 2 was expressed by RobM a couple years back, but choice 1 is more along the lines of Khun Sujin it seems to me. But the worst choice of all would be that each visible object is a homegeneous, single-color "screen," for that would in no way account for our ordinary visual perception. -------------------------------------------------- I often asked in the past how far V.O. > > extended and the answer was invariably: just whatever appears through > the eyesense. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: And I agree with that. The question is: Exactly what IS that. Without saying more, there might as well be nothing said at all! To say that visible object is what it is, is neither deep nor even slightly useful. ---------------------------------------------- This should be enough. When sati sampaja~n~na arises, > > more will be understood. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: It is nowhere nearly enough. There are enough places where Khun Sujin has said that a visible object is colors (plural), for me to take that as her position. If she didn't mean that, then she should have said something further or different. I don't buy this business of Abhidhamma being extremely detailed and yet completely fuzzy. That is odd to say the least. ---------------------------------------------- > We cannot count processes, they are too fast. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not interested in counting. But I don't believe that clear reasoning is to be dismissed either. I am unwilling to accept all sorts of detailed claims about Mount Sineru and "great earth parasols" on faith, yet also accept that there is no detailed information about visible objects that would account for visual perception. ---------------------------------------------- > Howard, you may not be satisfied, you want an exact formulation. You > are a mathematicus, thus, it is understandable that you are inclined > to this. It has advantages and disadvantages. There are many things > you formulate very carefully and precisely. But we should not stay > with the definitions. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I do not think that "blanking out" is the appropriate way to pursue truth. The bottom line, though, on this entire discussion from my perspective was my original purpose for pointing out the multicoloration of visible objects. It was the same purpose as my pointing out that there is variation in a sound during its existence, and for that matter, in very rupa with its stages of arising, stasis, and decline. Even more obvious is the variation within namas, for they are operations, and operations that do not change over time do nothing at all. So, my point was that paramattha dhammas are not such by virtue of instantaneousness and non-complexity, but by virtue of not requiring thinking for their being experienced. -------------------------------------------------- > --------- > Azita: To continue to try and find out what v.o consists of, > > >will IMHO be madness-making because until sati and panna are highly > >developed v.o. cannot be known by 'me'. > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > As I recall, it's trying to know details of kamma that is associated > with madness, but you can extend that if you wish. :-) > ------------------------------------------------ > N: No, the Atthasaalini speaks about the Abhidhamma. > We read in the "Expositor''(I,Introductory Discourse,24): > > “...The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind > run to > excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. > Consequently > he gets mental distraction...â€? > > And at another place we read that the wrong study of the Abhidhamma > leads to madness. --------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! I could start joking here, but I'd best not, for it probably wouldn't be taken for just kidding around by some folks. :-) ------------------------------------------- > > And as Azita said: v.o. cannot be known by 'me', it depends on the > development of sati sampaja~n~na. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: How did "me" get into this? Why is the spectre of atta-view being raised? -------------------------------------------- Doubt may arise and this is not > > pa~n~naa. Can we not leave it to pa~n~naa to know realities as they > are? Or do 'we' always try to know? This is very human, but when we > know that it is counteractive, we may drop this attitude. --------------------------------------------- Howard: There indeed *should* be effort to know, to see, and to understand. It is inappropriate to abrogate investigation by any and all valid means. While reasoning is not the ultimate means, it is a valid means, especially when supported by energetic and careful direct examination. Should intent examination of what is arising as to it being kusala or akusala be avoided, because it is an attempt to know, to see clearly? I resist such an attitude strongly. I do *not* except that it is a fault to attempt to see things as they actually are. I see it as a fault to do the opposite. ---------------------------------------------- > We are mixing the sense-doors and the mind-door and we take for an > experience through a sense-door what is an experience through the > mind-door. What do you think? --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that this doesn't say enough for me to properly consider what you are after here. What I will say is that I detect a willingness to just "not look" when what will be seen is not to one's liking, and I think that such a willingness should be resisted. I've observed this in myself not infrequently, especially when Jon (and also TG & Herman at times) most usefully forces me to confront challenges to some of my phenomenalist views. But I am always aware of that "inclination to avoid", because I've developed the habit of careful introspection, and that, though most uncomfortable at times, since it challenges my clinging to view, is still something I'm very grateful for. Because of that awareness, I'm able to resist the "inclination to avoid". Without that introspection and awareness, I'd really be lost. -------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ========================= With metta, Howard #72227 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 18, 2007 11:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your interesting post. There are many points I like to think over. Tomorrow we are off, walking, but later I shall pay attention. I only miss the part about madness being funny. Lack of sense of humour probably. Nina. Op 18-mei-2007, om 19:40 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > My point exactly is that if such were the case, we > would no way see as we see. We would just see a homogeneous red > "screen" > followed by a white one,then a black one, then grey, then blue, > etc, and this stream > of visible objects would not account for our normal seeing. #72228 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri May 18, 2007 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' TGrand458@... Hi Howard and Nina In a message dated 5/18/2007 11:43:48 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/18/07 10:52:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, _vangorko@..._ (mailto:vangorko@...) writes: > Dear Azita and Howard, > may I come in again? I find this thread worth while. > ------ > Howard: > Well, yeah, being sighted is useful. ;-) > When I consider, though, what visual experience would be like if each > visible object, each entire "panorama," were a single, homogeneous > color, it > wouldn't be very helpful in guiding me around the neighborhood! Would > be a good > "light show," though. LOL! (Ah, well!) > ------------ ---- ---- ---- > N: Do not forget the role of sa~n~naa and the fastness of the > processes of eye-door, mind-door, etc. We do not have to think of > V.O. as one single colour. ------------------------------------------- Howard: In fact I do not. My point exactly is that if such were the case, we would no way see as we see. We would just see a homogeneous red "screen" followed by a white one,then a black one, then grey, then blue, etc, and this stream of visible objects would not account for our normal seeing. The only possibilities are either 1) Each visible object is what is seen when eyes are opened, and it is multicolored, or 2) Each visible object is a single point-pixel, and the mind then *constructs* a "scene" from a seqence of such pixels. As I recall, choice 2 was expressed by RobM a couple years back, but choice 1 is more along the lines of Khun Sujin it seems to me. But the worst choice of all would be that each visible object is a homegeneous, single-color "screen," for that would in no way account for our ordinary visual perception. -------------------------------------------------- ...................................................... TG: All these choices suck don't they? Oh sorry, just thinking to myself. ................................................................ I often asked in the past how far V.O. > > extended and the answer was invariably: just whatever appears through > the eyesense. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: And I agree with that. The question is: Exactly what IS that. Without saying more, there might as well be nothing said at all! To say that visible object is what it is, is neither deep nor even slightly useful. ---------------------------------------------- ............................................................. TG: Hallelujah! That was a "three pointer." ................................................................ This should be enough. When sati sampaja~n~na arises, > > more will be understood. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: It is nowhere nearly enough. There are enough places where Khun Sujin has said that a visible object is colors (plural), for me to take that as her position. If she didn't mean that, then she should have said something further or different. I don't buy this business of Abhidhamma being extremely detailed and yet completely fuzzy. That is odd to say the least. ---------------------------------------------- ............................................................. TG: And _ _ _ _ _ _ to say the most? The Abhidhamma quarter very deeply know the reality of things, but when questioned, it turns out to be extremely limited, bound in by texts, and not able to integrate with the things we know about the world today. Actually, a little akin to Christianity and science. OK, that's was going a bit too far. Seriously though, Abhidhamma has many gaps in presenting a comprehensive outline of what is really going on. And it seems whenever they guessed to fill in those gaps, they screwed it up...i.e., heart base, etc. The Buddha didn't say too much or too little. So very hard to find fault in the heart of the Suttas. Abhidhamma tried to go beyond that and then got into difficulties. That's why for me, Abhidhamma is just a nice "assist" to the Suttas, when and where it can be helpful....and not something to be taken in a realm of its own, or even viewed as authoritative. ......................................................... > We cannot count processes, they are too fast. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not interested in counting. ............................................................... TG: I'll just pretend I didn't hear that! ................................................................. But I don't believe that clear reasoning is to be dismissed either. I am unwilling to accept all sorts of detailed claims about Mount Sineru and "great earth parasols" on faith, yet also accept that there is no detailed information about visible objects that would account for visual perception. ---------------------------------------------- > Howard, you may not be satisfied, you want an exact formulation. You > are a mathematicus, thus, it is understandable that you are inclined > to this. It has advantages and disadvantages. There are many things > you formulate very carefully and precisely. But we should not stay > with the definitions. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I do not think that "blanking out" is the appropriate way to pursue truth. The bottom line, though, on this entire discussion from my perspective was my original purpose for pointing out the multicoloration of visible objects. It was the same purpose as my pointing out that there is variation in a sound during its existence, and for that matter, in very rupa with its stages of arising, stasis, and decline. ........................................................ TG: Stasis? Ouch! Let's please at least call it "un-stasis," you know ... just to humor TG. ........................................................... Even more obvious is the variation within namas, for they are operations, and operations that do not change over time do nothing at all. So, my point was that paramattha dhammas are not such by virtue of instantaneousness and non-complexity, but by virtue of not requiring thinking for their being experienced. -------------------------------------------------- ........................................................... TG: Its all just changing continuously according to conditions. Multifaceted and pushing and pulling things this way and that. .............................................................. > --------- > Azita: To continue to try and find out what v.o consists of, > > >will IMHO be madness-making because until sati and panna are highly > >developed v.o. cannot be known by 'me'. > > ------------ ---- ---- ---- > Howard: > As I recall, it's trying to know details of kamma that is associated > with madness, but you can extend that if you wish. :-) > ------------ ---- ---- ---- ---- > N: No, the Atthasaalini speaks about the Abhidhamma. > We read in the "Expositor'' We read in the "Exposito > > “...The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind > run to > excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. > Consequently > he gets mental distraction. he g > > And at another place we read that the wrong study of the Abhidhamma > leads to madness. --------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! I could start joking here, but I'd best not, for it probably wouldn't be taken for just kidding around by some folks. :-) ------------------------------------------- > > And as Azita said: v.o. cannot be known by 'me', it depends on the > development of sati sampaja~n~na. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: How did "me" get into this? Why is the spectre of atta-view being raised? -------------------------------------------- Doubt may arise and this is not > > pa~n~naa. Can we not leave it to pa~n~naa to know realities as they > are? Or do 'we' always try to know? This is very human, but when we > know that it is counteractive, we may drop this attitude. --------------------------------------------- Howard: There indeed *should* be effort to know, to see, and to understand. It is inappropriate to abrogate investigation by any and all valid means. While reasoning is not the ultimate means, it is a valid means, especially when supported by energetic and careful direct examination. Should intent examination of what is arising as to it being kusala or akusala be avoided, because it is an attempt to know, to see clearly? I resist such an attitude strongly. I do *not* except that it is a fault to attempt to see things as they actually are. I see it as a fault to do the opposite. ---------------------------------------------- ................................................. TG: Very Good. MN # 32, The Greater Discourse in Gosinga. Here 6 prominent monks all explain their inclinations in practice to the Buddha and The Buddha approves of all of them and gives his own. Only one monk, Maha Kassapa, describes mindfulness, and he is a forest dwelling ascetic, rage robe wearer who also specializes in concentration and Jhanas. Maha Mogalana describes a good practice to discuss dhamma. Ananda to remember dhamma, etc. Not at all "just seeing realities." ...................................................... > We are mixing the sense-doors and the mind-door and we take for an > experience through a sense-door what is an experience through the > mind-door. What do you think? --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that this doesn't say enough for me to properly consider what you are after here. What I will say is that I detect a willingness to just "not look" when what will be seen is not to one's liking, and I think that such a willingness should be resisted. I've observed this in myself not infrequently, especially when Jon (and also TG & Herman at times) most usefully forces me to confront challenges to some of my phenomenalist views. But I am always aware of that "inclination to avoid", because I've developed the habit of careful introspection, and that, though most uncomfortable at times, since it challenges my clinging to view, is still something I'm very grateful for. Because of that awareness, I'm able to resist the "inclination to avoid". Without that introspection and awareness, I'd really be lost. -------------------------------------------------- .............................................................. TG: Good comments. This forum's greatest attribute for me is the challenge it gives us in sorting things out. And for that I'm thankful to all the folks that participate. .............................................................. TG OUT > Nina. > ============ ======== === With metta, Howard #72229 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 18, 2007 9:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/18/07 2:49:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > I only miss the part about madness being funny. Lack of > sense of humour probably. > ======================= I'm sure your sense of humor is excellent! I simply didn't spell out the possible (un-meant) wisecracks one could make such as "Why, aren't *all* Abhidhammikas slightly mad?" (To which KenH or others could counter with a good-humored response such as "Certainly less than the meditators I know!" ;-)) With metta, Howard #72230 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 4:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence egberdina Hi Larry, On 17/05/07, LBIDD@... wrote: > > > Experience is just whatever it is, neither internal nor external to > experience. The experience of my haircut is not external to the > experience of your haircut. They are two different experiences but > experience can't be classified as external or internal to another > experience. > > The experience of a tree on the other side of a park is not external to > a conversation on this side of the park. This view is experience without > boundaries. > I think you wrote very well. And I would actually like what you wrote to be the experience more often. And in order for that to happen, I have to dispense with all efforts to distinguish between nama and rupa. Because making that distinction is the first schism in the non-duality (unity) of experience. Herman #72231 From: "Phil" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 4:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts to Siila Corner (1) to Phil philofillet H Sarah, Han and all It's always good to be reminded of the deeper implications of suttas, as you do here. But this sutta is best appreciated by beginners who are prone to gross defilements in a way that involves conventional objects of reflection. So, for example, thinking "if I say this to Peter, Peter will be hurt, and that will be harmful to Peter, and to myself." Someday, there may be condtions for deeper appreciation of the sutta, which is all about the dhammas involved. But not for me yet. Application of the sutta using conventional objects of reflection will help provide conditions for that deeper understanding. This is consistent with the way Bhikkhu Bodhi presents the sutta in his recorded talk, and I have confidence in Bhikkhu Bodhi's appreciation of what is suitable for beginners. But always good to hear of deeper matters that may become relevant to me later... Metta, Phil > So I think an understanding of namas and rupas is implied. > > I think it's also important to remember that the ten akusala kamma- patha > through body, speech and mind refer to momentary cittas (or rather the > cetana accompanying these cittas). The purification and training is > through the reflection leading to the direct understanding of such dhammas > when they arise. #72232 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] DMT corner 1 (Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55)) egberdina Hi Scott, On 17/05/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > > Scott: Sorry, Herman, that didn't come out right. I mean, Dig this, man: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMskKuG6Vsc > Thanks, dude. It is nice of you to share that pleasant experience with me. Herman #72233 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) egberdina Hi Scott, On 17/05/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > Who is the problem here? The bearers of vaginas? Hardly. > You have me puzzled here. I have come to expect from you a certain precision and literalness in your approach to the texts, but now you seem to be saying that when the Buddha literally says that women are a stain on the holy life, what he actually meant was that it is the dirty minds of men that are the stain. > > Scott: I may despise organised religion, although I think I might > have to come a long way to catch up with you, given what I can read > between the lines. I'd suggest this might make it hard for you to see > the forest for the trees. Would you accept it if I suggested that it > might be good to tone down the mockery a bit, though? Can you > separate the wheat from the chaff (sorry, I think that is New > Testament, isn't it)? > Tell you what, I'll make three full-body-length prostrations in your general direction for the way I deliberately mixed upper and lower case :-), if you tell me what this is about: Scott: For all the talk and praise of jhaana there appears to be little actual confidence in it. Not that these things are worth seeking in and of themselves... I saw the potential for that to be referring to me without naming me, but I can't make that assumption on what was presented. But just to clarify, I never spoke in praise of DMT, I merely pointed out that people who have used it, which excludes me (as I pointed out), describe their experience in much the same way as some of the Sisters do in Connie's extracts. I would agree with you if you said that the experiences of past lives, deva realms, supernatural powers and the like, are not worth seeking in and of themselves. The moment any such experience becomes an object of craving, they may as well be craving for pellets of cyanide. And that, of course, goes for anything experienced in jhanas. Herman #72234 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri May 18, 2007 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence lbidd2 Hi Herman, H: "I think you wrote very well. And I would actually like what you wrote to be the experience more often. And in order for that to happen, I have to dispense with all efforts to distinguish between nama and rupa. Because making that distinction is the first schism in the non-duality (unity) of experience." L: I agree. From my point of view you have to make a choice about how you want to proceed. That choice should be based on experiential understanding, not just what sounds good. Howard has a way around this conflict, seeing rupa as inseparable from 5-door consciousness, thereby maintaining the distinction between nama and rupa. But it seems to me a path of making distinctions is unnecessary if no internal and no external experience is understood. I must say though it took me a long time of trying to understand a mind-only point of view before I could even begin to experience it. And making distinctions is a perfectly serviceable path to anatta, which is the ultimate nonduality. So don't quite your day job ;-) Larry #72235 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? egberdina Hi Sukin, On 17/05/07, sukinder wrote: > > > S=> You had said: "only dhammas that lead to cessation are KUSALA." > Yes, quite right. Mixing different conceptual systems doesn't help the cause of clarity. Sorry about that. > So I was only trying to refute this. Had you been more precise, I wouldn't > have had to give the details as I did. Anyway, Abhidhamma doesn't contradict > the notion of "kamma that ends kamma". So are we still not on the same > page/book on this?:-) Not sure. It doesn't really matter, though, does it? :-) > > Herman: Yes, I understand. But jhana is a pleasant abiding, not an escape. I > think anyone with the intention of escaping wouldn't get within a > lion's roar of a jhana. > > S=> I am glad to hear that you agree. But then you also give so much > importance to jhana, why so? You should ask the Buddha that one. Because not one page in a random book of Suttas would go by without a mention in praise of them. My thinking as to why the Buddha recommended them is, that despite their only being the present moment, the present moment is very, very long indeed, and you have entire days, weeks and years in which to live this moment. Now, one can spend this present moment seeking out food for the senses, or one can abstain. The Buddha praised such abstinence. Why? "Because it conduces to that bhikkhu's few desires, satisfaction, purity, the nature of being suppoted easily, and for arousing of effort". (MN03). Arousing of effort for what? "There friends, greed is an evil, anger is an evil. To dispel greed and anger, there is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge enlightenment and extinction. It is this same noble eightfold path such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration." (MN03). With regard to the use of 'escape', I hesitated > at first, but decided to go ahead, since only Vipassana comes face to face > with the defilements, to actually be "dealing with" it. So in this regard, I > would reserve "Lion's Roar" only to this particular teaching of the Buddha > and not to Jhana. ;-) > In Australia, there is a saying "to not come within a bull's roar". It means, to not even come close. I simply meant that any craving (from escaping, or anything else) will prevent even coming close to jhanas). To get to jhanas requires a lot of "having dealt with". Jhanas are a litmus test for whether there has been any vipassana. > > S=> See? Here you put Jhana at the top again. And I think it is distracting > to do so. After all if at the same time you acknowledge that only the N8FP > does the job, why insist that anyone who has had a deep understanding of the > danger of sense experiences, that he must necessarily opt for jhana? > Well, what better way to be detached? If you feel that you are able to "mix it" with the world whilst remaining totally untouched by it, then you are more-or-less just doing a walking talking version of jhana. Go for it! > On the other hand, not having the level of understanding does not imply that > one in fact believes that "everything is fine". The Middle Way can be viewed > conventionally as not trying to suppress or otherwise indulge, but > 'developing understanding' gradually and naturally, in accordance with one's > accumulations. > Well, let's face it. We have naturally accumulated a desire for desire. What makes you think you are naturally going to de-accumulate this by continuing to do what has led us thusfar? > > Herman: Really, Sukin, this is so silly. Having a few moments of seeing > danger > in sense conditions *are* the conditons for renunciation. If there is > no renunciation, there has not been any insight whatsoever. > > S=> I think you are being rather idealistic here. There are many degrees of > understanding, and insight too like anything else, is a momentary phenomena. > Likewise, if there is a sense of urgency, this should not be viewed as > anything more than a momentary arising and falling. Besides that one decides > to renounce / become ordained, this is not dependent only on insight and any > deep sense of urgency, but on accumulations for leading such a life as well. > Also remember, that there were many householders who were enlightened. I am happy for you to believe what you will. And you certainly don't have to justify anything you do or don't do to me. But when it comes down to what in says in the Suttas, there is nothing that suggests that the N8FP is a natural just keeping on doing what you're doing kind of thing. > In any case, I was talking about the 'moment of understanding', that at such > moments, there is a corresponding level of renunciation. I am not interested > in the story about "someone deciding to renounce the world after > experiencing some insight". You are talking from the point of view of causation, while "someone deciding to renounce" is talking from the point of view of what is experienced. People who talk in terms of causation, without a corresponding experience, are talking about the theory of experience. The N8FP is not a theory of experience. It is a path of practice, set in train by the realisation of dukkha. > > S=> There is vipaka vatta, kilesas vatta and kamma vatta. The arahat having > eradicated the defilements, no more creates kamma, this is the cutting off > of DO. I think in talking about "actions creating future effect", you are > not referring to kamma-vipaka, but some conventional cause and effect. I > think this is a big mistake, and hence the above conclusion. > In the previous paragraph you denounce stories of renunciation, and here we have your account of arahants and what they did. ???? > > Herman: How many lifetimes have you had? I am asking this quite seriously. > What makes you think you'll have an opportunity to accumulate anything > more if it hasn't happened already? > > S=> I don't know, but do think that it must be uncountable. The fact that > any wisdom arising is so little and so rare and that conditions being so > complex, I think that I may have not much more chance than the blind turtle > who pops his head up once every hundred years and expects to do so at the > very spot where the floating wooden ring is. But what it is, is what it is, > and I don't think too much about the past or future lives. On the other > hand, not in fact "knowing" my accumulations, who knows what will happen > next! But each moment does accumulate, profitable states and unprofitable. > This I say with confidence. I think it is very wise of you to disown knowledge of your accumulations. I look forward to never having to read about them as excuses for what you do and fail to do :-) > > S=> Oh, there is so much attachment to everything, and sure there must be > quite a bit to 'thinking'. But at the moment of "right" thinking, i.e. with > right view, there is no attachment. There is Suttamaya panna and there is > Cintamaya panna, both of these are necessary part of the Path. Is that part of the theory? > S=> The Path at the highest level is one of 'insight' and not thinking. But > even the highest insights are followed immediately by thinking. And prior to > this, yes, there must necessarily be lots and lots of thinking, for > otherwise the thinking would be akusala, including ones that are conditioned > by wrong view. Why is it a necessity that there must be lots of thinking? If you are going to say that the theory says so, don't bother :-) > Herman: I am saying that a realisation of dukkha conditions turning away. A > person who promises themself at least another umpteen rebirths so they > can get their pariyatti certificate is having a lend of themselves > (kidding themselves) if they imagine that they have an inkling of > dukkha. > > S=> Rather the realization of dukkha *is* a turning away. This turning away > is in direct proportion to the level of realization/understanding of the > dukkha. Whatever level this is now, in the past or in the future, it is what > it is. So it is quite pointless to have hope and any expectation. Do you > think it is a necessary implication that anyone who believes in future > rebirths does so with hope and longing? Not in one who fears death. But I imagine that a fear of death would be condition to seek an end to the cycle of life-death. And it is for this purpose that the holy life is sought out and lived, isn't it? > Are we getting somewhere? :-) > I'm sure of it. You are helping me clarify the muddle in my head. For which I thank you :-) Herman #72236 From: Cláudia Date: Fri May 18, 2007 7:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction cultry1 Phra Alan, You are welcome to the group. People with such experince as yours are always those who can teach more. I'm also an English teacher living in Brazil, my country. For the last 10 years I've been working in school which stays in the middle of the most intenseive drug traffic in my town. It was very common to meet students at school dealing cocain, crack and other drugs. So I know what the bad the drug can make. You said at some point of your comment "I suffer from bipolar disorder (Manic depression) and have been obliged to take medication which does interfere with my practice. How is that? I also suffer from bipolar disorder, take some medication, and recently I've noticed my practice has been changing. Could you talk a little about this, please. I'm quite worried, you know. If I have to choose between buddhism and medication, I'll certainly stay with buddhism. You can write to my e-mail, please, since this is a personal problem.. claudia_vieira@... #72237 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 7:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for your reply: H: "You have me puzzled here. I have come to expect from you a certain precision and literalness in your approach to the texts, but now you seem to be saying that when the Buddha literally says that women are a stain on the holy life, what he actually meant was that it is the dirty minds of men that are the stain." Scott: Yeah, well sorry about that. I'm more often than not at a loss to pin you down, but I always figure I'm just not as swift. Anyway, here I'm probably wrong but I was thinking (always dangerous, I know) that it would be inconsistent for a Buddha to be misogynist and so the mystery of the apparent misogyny might be solved by considering the audience - men. So I was thinking that he had to teach these men in this way. I think I find myself being literal on matters of 'existence', such as realms etc., because I just don't doubt them and so find no need to consider how they might be metaphorical or otherwise interpreted. I don't consider myself to be precise at all - I'm the fuzziest thinker I know, much to my consternation when trying to discuss things with you, or figure things out. H: "Tell you what, I'll make three full-body-length prostrations in your general direction for the way I deliberately mixed upper and lower case :-), if you tell me what this is about: Scott: For all the talk and praise of jhaana there appears to be little actual confidence in it. Not that these things are worth seeking in and of themselves... H: "I saw the potential for that to be referring to me without naming me, but I can't make that assumption on what was presented. But just to clarify, I never spoke in praise of DMT, I merely pointed out that people who have used it, which excludes me (as I pointed out), describe their experience in much the same way as some of the Sisters do in Connie's extracts." Scott: No, I wasn't referring to you, at least regarding jhaana. I was on a rant at the time in a couple of threads, I think, and our conversation was distorted by it. I was speaking out against skepticism in general. I read you to a) consider jhaana to be a possibility and a reality open to experience and, b) to choose not to seek it as experience. If I've got it, then we are seeing this similarily. Correct me if I've misread you. I was reading you to be a skeptic, which may have been an error. So, in light of my rant against skepticism, I was alluding to an argument that is based on my understanding that the abhi~n~naas are a pinnacle of jhaana mastery, or its natural consequence, and so if one considers jhaana to be an achievable reality, why would one equivocate on its sequelae? I don't think you were saying this, exactly. Why argue that jhaana is a literal experience and then start to theorise about the abhi~n~naas as if they suddenly are merely some form of telepathy? As I said, I was just on a rant. Does this make sense? H: "I would agree with you if you said that the experiences of past lives, deva realms, supernatural powers and the like, are not worth seeking in and of themselves. The moment any such experience becomes an object of craving, they may as well be craving for pellets of cyanide. And that, of course, goes for anything experienced in jhanas." Scott: Yes. It is not worth seeking to attain any of these abilities. I'm afraid that is why I don't pursue jhaana myself. Jhaana, as it seems to be considered in this modern age of pop psychology and pop buddhism, seems to be no more than something to chase and that seems counter to the way I understand things. If an aptitude were present I think I'd know it. I'm afraid I have little confidence in modern man's higher 'sprititual' aptitude, when it comes to jhaana. I believe that there must be true living jhaana masters but they are likely few, far between, and would probably be silent about it (at least I hope so). I have confidence in jhaana as a reality, and as an aspect of momentaneity. I read how the Buddha himself was a jhaana master, which makes sense. Anyway, I'll stop because I feel another rant coming on. What makes sense and what doesn't? I'll try to clarify. Later, man. Scott. #72238 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] DMT corner 1 (Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55)) scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMskKuG6Vsc H: "Thanks, dude. It is nice of you to share that pleasant experience with me." Scott: I'm glad you could get into it, man. Music to appeal to the Minimalist/Experientialist. Sincerely, Scott. #72239 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri May 18, 2007 5:43 pm Subject: "Ordinary" Impermanence TGrand458@... Hi All Its been suggested that the Buddha Dhamma's impermanence is somehow meant as something different than our "ordinary" idea of impermanence. The Buddha makes these following analogies... “When, Bhikkhus (Buddhist monks), a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away.â€? (The Buddha . . . The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (CDB), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 1, pg. 960 â€" 961) And, after being asked if he could describe the time period of an aeon, the Buddha said: â€" “Suppose, brother, there were a great crag, a hill one yogana wide (about 7-8 miles), one yogana across, one yogana high without chasms or clefts, a solid mass. And a man at the end of every hundred years were to stroke it once each time with a kasi cloth. Well, that mountain in this way would sooner be done away with and ended than an aeon.â€? (The Buddha . . . KS, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) “…suppose there were a seafaring ship bound with rigging that had worn out in the water for six months. It would be hauled up on dry land during the cold season and its rigging would further be attacked by wind and sun. Inundated by rain from a rain cloud, the rigging would easily collapse and rot away.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1557) TG: This all sounds like what I think of when I think of "ordinary impermanence." Comments? TG #72240 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Fri May 18, 2007 10:33 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati, third road wisdomcompas... dear friends, i was looking for a reference in the sutta about what i said about the third road in my earlier post. here is the sutta in which buddha says that neither by effort nor by non effort he crossed the flood. i think this third road can be learnt in meditation/satipatthana, and rather easily in meditation, that was the reason i talk about effort. i hope it helps in clarifying what,i cannot explain through words. there are references about this in other suttas as well, but right now i dont remember, will post it whenever i find another sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.001.than.html with metta nidhi #72241 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 19, 2007 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? sarahprocter... Hi Herman, This discussion related to SN54:9 about the monks who committed suicide and the commentary notes I gave in #71629 --- Herman Hofman wrote: > > S: Reading the sutta in a straight-forward manner (as summarised > > here), is there any other conclusion to come to but that either a) > > the Buddha gave the monks the wrong meditation subject, or that b) > > that suicide is to be encouraged, and/or that c)The Buddha lacked the > > foresight and omniscience to know what results might follow? ... > H:> Personally, I have no need for an omniscient Buddha. The very idea > detracts from the value that Buddhism has for me. .... S: Whereas the more I study, consider and begin to understand, the more obvious it is to me that the Buddha did alone have this omniscient knowledge. There is plenty of support for it in the texts too. For example, in Patisambhidamagga (PTS, Nanamoli translation), Ch LXX111, 'Omniscient and Unobstructed Knowledge': "What is the Perfect One's omniscient knowledge? It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge. All that is past it knows,......................All that is future it knows,...........All that is presently-arisen it knows,........Eye and visible objects: all that it knows......Ear and sounds:....Nose and odours:........Tongue and flavours:......Body and tangible objects:....Mind and ideas: all that it knows,...." {S: The text continues for a few more pages on this subject of the Buddha's omniscience.) .... >H: A Buddha that can > know the future implies a deterministic universe, in which case the > Buddha was also a determined being. .... S: I think it implies an omniscient understanding of conditioned dhammas. No beings involved. .... >H: This leads to a very ugly or very > pretty, que sera sera, whatever will be will be worldview. And whether > it is pretty or ugly will, of course, depend on the determined > viewpoint one has. .... S: There is a difference between conditioned dhammas and a 'determined viewpoint'. Even thinking in that way will be a condition not to see the value of developing wisdom. .... >H: Also, I seem to recall that the Buddha, when he was a rabbit, didn't > have any problems self-immolating, so perhaps your reservations about > suicide are not shared by him? After all, Channa, who couldn't bear > the pain of his illness, died faultlessly in the eyes of the Buddha, > after having killed himself. .... S: Remember that there are different cittas, different kammas - all bringing their results accordingly. As I mentioned in the Rahula thread, I find it more helpful to reflect on momentary kamma that on long stories about deeds and actions. Otherwise one may come to the kind of conclusion you do above. Of course, the commentary makes it very clear that Channa died faultlessly because his accumulated wisdom was such that there were conditions for him to become fully enlightened after his act of suicide, but before death. .... >H: Using one's critical faculties is very important, even in just reading > Suttas on their own. .... S: Exactly so. If you read the sutta about Channa and come to the conclusion that the Buddha considered the act of suicide to be 'faultless', I don't think you are using your critical faculties. Similarly, in the case of the monks who committed suicide and murder - if you read it as a big blunder on the Buddha's part because he lacked the foresight to know the consequences of encouraging those monks to meditate on foulness, again, I think you're selling those very critical faculties of yours short, Herman!! Metta, Sarah ============ #72242 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 19, 2007 3:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > TG: <....> I cannot view > anything > in the realm of conditionality that is not energy and vice versa. Can > you? > Why the objection? Just cause its not in the book? .... S: Let's take visible object as its being discussed a lot. Now there is the seeing of visible object through the eye-sense. This is what can be directly known, not energy, except by thinking about it in some scientific manner, surely? ... > If you don't think outside the box (or book in this case) how are you > going > to see things the way they really are for yourself? Of course the > suttas are > an invaluable help. But I feel we should tap all knowledge that will > help > us see things more clearly. ... S: The only knowledge that will help us see things more clearly is insight into what appears. I keep asking you through which door-way energy appears and what its characteristic is when it so appears? .... > > The "energy thing" to me is just common sense. If it bothers you, I > wouldn't think in those terms. But if you can't see elements/aggregates > as > energies, I think you're missing some potential insight power. .... S: I'm sorry, but I think that regarding vedana, sanna and other dhammas as energies is to merely develop a scientific analysis, not an insight into namas and rupas. ... > :>TG: BTW, energy is merely something with momentum. ... > S: How is it experienced and through what doorway? Is it a > characteristic > of all dhammas? If so, why didn’t the Buddha point it out? > ............................................................................ > > TG: As you might think all the conditions the Buddha pointed out were > realities, I would much rather think that they were energies. .... S: You didn't answer my questions! .... <...> > Would the > people 2500 years ago had the idea of energy the way we might, I doubt > it. To > me, its a potential "insight perk" that we have. .... S: Ah, so we have a potential "insight perk" that the Buddha and his followers were lacking:-)). That's a new one. .... <...> >S: Even the element of air/motion > (vayo dhatu) is a conditioned dhamma (reality) which arises and falls > away. ... > TG: I don't agree with your characterization of impermanence as merely > "arises and falls away." <...> > I started a topic on impermanence that I hope you join in or at least > observe. ... S: I am following it. I believe that when the Buddha talked about anicca as one of the ti-lakkhana of all conditioned dhamms that he was referring to the arising and passing away of each dhamma that is conditioned. Because of this impermanence of conditioned dhammas, they are all dukkha -all unsatisfactory and worthless. It is the insight into such dhammas as they are which leads to the 'turning away', the 'dispassion' towards them. ....... >S: If the world of visible object is appearing, there is no world of > motion appearing. When there is thinking about energy, the object is a > concept on account of various dhammas and other concepts. > ................................................................. > > TG: Everything that is experienced is motion. Experience "itself" is > a > motion. ... S: Motion is the characterisitic of one rupa only, vayo dhatu (air element). No other dhammas can be experienced as motion. When visible object is experienced, there is no motion experienced. ...... <...> > I fully expect that I have converted you. ;-)))) .... S: ;-))) I must say, I enjoy your good humour, TG. This shows in all your threads, especially some with Howard & others. Metta, Sarah ======== #72244 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat May 19, 2007 4:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence sarahprocter... Hi TG & Larry, I gave up waiting for Pali expertise and tried to sort out our problem here: --- TGrand458@... wrote: > eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind, are derived from the > Four Great > Elements... > (The Path of Discrimination, (PD), Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, > paragraphs > 371-377) .... S: In the Pali, mano is given for mind. This refers to all kinds of consciousness as you (TG) and I thought. Definitley not 'brain', Larry! As I mentioned before, the PTS English translation is rather difficult to follow and does lead to the conclusion you quote above. I've just had a look at the Pali: http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/5Khuddaka-Nikaya/12Patisambhidamagga/\ 01-Mahavagga/1-Nyanakatha/15-vatthunanattanana-katha-p.html I found something interesting. Whereas the PTS translation for Mano (mind) internally just refers us to #371 again, in fact the Pali is not exactly the same. For the eye, there is a line: "mahaa bhuutaana.m upaadaayaa'ti vavattheti" (Eye is derived from the four great elements), followed by "cakkhu.m uppanna'nti vavattheti" (Eye is arisen). The same line (about being derived from the 4 great elements) is given for the ear, nose, tongue and body as in "kaayo catunna.m mahaabhuutaana.m upaadaayaa'ti vavattheti". However, when it comes to mano (mind/consciousness), I don't see this line about being derived from the 4 great elements. After the line about being dependent on nutriment (aahaarasambhuuto), it jumps to the line about being arisen: "mano aahaarasambhuuto'ti vavattheti mano uppanno'ti vavattheti..." Also, I believe it's an error under cakkhu (eye) when it says 'Eye is produced by nutriment' after 'eye is produced by action'. The Pali has: "cakkhu.m kammasambhuuta'nti vavattheti" (eye is produced by kamma), followed by the line about being dependent on the 4 great elements. I think this settles the question about how mano (consciousness) is said in the text to be derived from the 4 great elements. It doesn't! I believe it's just some rather careless translation. Metta, Sarah ====== #72245 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 12:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 5/19/07 12:44:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi All > > Its been suggested that the Buddha Dhamma's impermanence is somehow meant > as > something different than our "ordinary" idea of impermanence. -------------------------------------------- Howard: What I suggest is that 'anicca' means "impermanent" (a-nicca) in the sense of "not permanent", the primary dictionary rendering. There are examples such as what you give below in the suttas and examples of sudden cessation of khandhic elements as well. The Buddha used ordinary language for the most part. He wasn't a philosophy professor, but a teacher who led people to free themselves. -------------------------------------------- > > The Buddha makes these following analogies... > > > “When, Bhikkhus (Buddhist monks), a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice > looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and > his > thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away > > today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the > knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away.â€? > (The Buddha . . . The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (CDB), (Samyutta > Nikaya), vol. 1, pg. 960 â€" 961) > And, after being asked if he could describe the time period of an aeon, the > > Buddha said: â€" “Suppose, brother, there were a great crag, a hill one > yogana wide (about 7-8 miles), one yogana across, one yogana high without > chasms > or clefts, a solid mass. And a man at the end of every hundred years were > to > stroke it once each time with a kasi cloth. Well, that mountain in this > way > would sooner be done away with and ended than an aeon.â€? > (The Buddha . . . KS, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) > “…suppose there were a seafaring ship bound with rigging that had worn out > > in the water for six months. It would be hauled up on dry land during the > > cold season and its rigging would further be attacked by wind and sun. > Inundated by rain from a rain cloud, the rigging would easily collapse and > rot > away.â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1557) > TG: This all sounds like what I think of when I think of "ordinary > impermanence." > Comments? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Even from the conventional-object perspective, what does this "wearing away" consist of? Parts of the item, whether it be an adze handle, a mountain peak, or a ship, have ceased as part of the item. In general, when the conceptual things of the world change/alter, what is happening is that at a finer level, some items have ceased and/or others appeared. At the grosser level this appears as transformation. Look at "a person's body" from birth to death. We say it has changed. By the time of death, in fact, everything originally there is long gone. Those elements ceased, did not remain, were im-permanent. The "body", utterly dependent, across time, on parts and on mental imputation, "that" body that "still exists" it seems, is a kind of fiction in the sense that at any moment it is just a collection of simpler phenomena, the contents of which collection change completely in not that much time, and yet after that time, when nothing at all has remained, we yet think "This is still my body." The body's transformation is just the appearance resulting from lower-level impermanence. I think that the situation for paramattha dhammas is similar but not quite the same. The "life" of a rupa - say hardness - is one of growth in intensity, leveling-off of intensity, and decline in intensity, a limited transformation, but throughout it was always hardness, with only its intensity varying. Prior to this, there was no hardness, and subsequent to this there no longer is the hardness. The fact that hardness appears when there was none previously is called "arising", and the fact that no hardness appears when there had previously been hardness is called "cessation." The non-remaining of a hardness is its impermanence, not its change in intensity while existing. (Namas are similar, but their life-cycle variation is far more complex and more difficult to discuss.) In general, the Buddha did not just point to change in macroscopic entities, but to their actual cessation. And he pointed to cessation of khandhic elements. Again and again, the Buddha said that whatever arises, ceases. Ceasing isn't just variation in form, but dropping out of existence. That is the true anicca, as I see it, but at the macroscopic level it manifests as change. ------------------------------------------------ > TG > ===================== With metta, Howard #72246 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 1:17 am Subject: Anicca and Anatta - An Addendum Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence upasaka_howard Hi again, TG - There is an even more radical sense of impermanence that somewhat harmonizes your alteration/change view with my cessation view into what I think is a synthesis closer to the truth than either of these. That more radical sense of impermanence is that when anything has altered in any respect at all, the "original" has ceased! From this perspective, when a rupa is in the midst of its increase, leveling-off, and decline process - that is, while it "exists" - it doesn't actually remain at all even for a moment! And here we have anicca and anatta coming together!! Whatever doesn't remain identically the same at any time is utterly insubstantial and without essence. Here we have instantaneous cessation. And this applies all the more clearly, I think, to namas. The point of impermanence is, I think, cessation, not transformation, but the cessation is *radical*. What "changes" in any way at all in fact no longer exists as an entity and actually never did. Anicca merges right into anatta. We have to be very, very careful, I think, in these discussions of ours. It is SO easy to fall into the trap of reification even when discussing something like impermanence. The "transformation perspective" leads us into a kind of continuationist substantialism that countenances continuation of substance along with variation in form, and the "cessation perspective" leads us into a kind of discrete-phenomena-annihilationism that countenances momentary entities that are annihilated. The reality, I think, is different from each of these, radically different, and deeply difficult to see. IMO, we need to keep anatta/su~n~nata aways in front of our eyes. It is the "great protection". With metta, Howard #72247 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat May 19, 2007 4:48 am Subject: The Sugar! bhikkhu5 Friends: The Sugar of Being is Gentle Kindness: The Blessed Buddha said: May all creatures, all breathing things, all beings everyone, without exception, experience good happiness only. May they not fall into any harm. Anguttara Nikaya II, 72 Let no one deceive another or despise anyone anywhere, or through anger or irritation wish for another to suffer. Sutta Nipata I, 8 For one who deliberately & aware develops Universal Friendliness Seeing the fading away of clinging, All chains are worn down & broken. Itivuttaka 27 Overcome the angry by friendliness; overcome the wicked by goodness; overcome the miser by generosity; overcome the liar by truth. Dhammapada 223 Who is hospitable, open, and friendly, Generous, gentle and unselfish, A guide, an instructor, a leader, Such a one to honour may attain. Digha Nikaya 31 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> The Sugar! #72248 From: connie Date: Sat May 19, 2007 6:36 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) nichiconn dear friends, Therii Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii, part 13 of 17: "Mama puttobhinikkhamma, buddho aasi vinaayako; pacchaaha.m pabbajitvaana, satehi saha pa~ncahi. "Saakiyaaniihi dhiiraahi, saha santisukha.m phusi.m; ye tadaa pubbajaatiya.m, amhaaka.m aasu saamino. "Sahapu~n~nassa kattaaro, mahaasamayakaarakaa; phusi.msu arahatta.m te, sugatenaanukampitaa. "Tadetaraa bhikkhuniyo, aaruhi.msu nabhattala.m; sa.mgataa viya taaraayo, viroci.msu mahiddhikaa. "Iddhii anekaa dassesu.m, pi.landhavikati.m yathaa; kammaaro kanakasseva, kamma~n~nassa susikkhito. "Dassetvaa paa.tihiiraani, vicittaani bahuuni ca; tosetvaa vaadipavara.m, muni.m saparisa.m tadaa. "My son, having gone forth, became the Buddha, the Leader. After that, I went forth with the five hundred [women], and together with [those] wise Sakyan women, I attained peace and happiness. Those who were our husbands in our previous birth, having done meritorious deed together with us, being performers of the great Doctrine, attained Arahatship through the compassion of the Sublime One." Then the other bhikkhuniis rose up to the surface of the sky, met there like stars, and blazed forth with great supernormal powers. They showed many supernormal powers, just as a well-trained smith makes gold malleable for shaping. And then they exhibited many different marvels. They delighted the Noble Speaker, the Sage, with his retinue. "Orohitvaana gaganaa, vanditvaa isisattama.m; anu~n~naataa naraggena, yathaa.thaane nisiidisu.m. "Ahonukampikaa amha.m, sabbaasa.m cira gotamii; vaasitaa tava pu~n~nehi, pattaa no aasavakkhaya.m. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa amha.m, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaama anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata no aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. They came down from the sky and paid homage to the Best of Seers. Then with the permission of the Best of Men, they sat down in appropriate places. "O Gotamii,' [they said,] "you have been sympathetic to us all for a long time. Established through your meritorious deed, we have reached the annihilation of our taints. "Our defilements are burnt out, all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed our bonds like an elephant, we live without taints. "Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. We have attained the three true knowledges. We have done the Buddha's teaching. "The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are ours. We have realized the six direct knowledges. We have done the Buddha's teaching. "Iddhiisu ca vasii homa, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; cetopariya~naa.nassa, vasii homa mahaamune. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaama, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi daani punabbhavaa. "Atthe dhamme ca nerutte, pa.tibhaane ca vijjati; ~naa.na.m amha.m mahaaviira, uppanna.m tava santike. "Asmaabhi parici.n.nosi, mettacittaa hi naayaka; anujaanaahi sabbaasa.m, nibbaanaaya mahaamune. "Nibbaayissaama icceva.m, ki.m vakkhaami vadantiyo; yassa daani ca vo kaala.m, ma~n~nathaati jinobravi. "We have mastery of the supernormal powers. By means of the divine ear, we have mastery of the knowledge of the state of mind of others, O Great Sage. "We know our previous lives; our divine eye has been purified. All our taints are consumed; now there is no renewed existence. "And truly, O Great Hero, in your presence, knowledge has arisen in us and the comprehension of meaning, states and etymology is known. "We have attended to you with thoughts of loving kindness, O Leader. Permit us all [to attain] quenching, O Great Sage." "What shall I say, since you say, 'We will be quenched'?" the Conqueror said. "And now, you should do what you think it is time for." ===tbc, connie #72249 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 4:16 am Subject: Anatta Rules upasaka_howard Hi, all - There is no thing that remains. There also is no thing that changes. Finally, there is no thing that ceases. Yet there is not nothing! As soon as we begin thinking, and not just observing or recalling our observing, what we conclude is (ultimately) false even if provisionally true. And especially, as soon as we think of impermanence not as a denial, but as a positive result about actual entities we have missed the boat (to the far shore). As soon, in fact, as we think even of anatta not as a denial, but as a positive result about actual entities we have missed the boat (to the far shore) - and ironically so in the case of anatta. There is, I think, good reason for the preeminence of the Zen koan, 'mu', meaning "no". The koan has a student ask the Zen master "Does a dog have Buddha nature?" (The term 'Buddha nature' refers to the potential for eventual awakening, something presumed for all sentient beings.) The master simply replies "Mu!". What is that 'mu'? Does it deny Buddha nature to a dog? Or does it deny validity to the entire thought process underlying the question, involving as it does all sorts of complex reification error? Does the Zen master want the student to think & think & think, or, instead, to look and let go? I guess you know which I presume. The master is hurling the "no!" at the student to shock him out of his self-imposed stupor, to knock him off his conceptual footing, to enable him to break out and SEE. With metta, Howard #72250 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 19, 2007 8:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Death-1 jonoabb Hi James Thanks for the further comments. Vism Ch. III par. 27 to Ch. IV par. 20 sets out the matters that are preparatory to the development of samatha as discussed in the sections that follow dealing with the different kammatthaana. These matters are: a/ Severing the 10 impediments (a dwelling, family, gain, class, buildings, travel, kin, affliction, books and supernormal powers) b/ Approaching the good friend, the giver of the kammatthaana c/ Choosing a kammatthaana suitable to his own temperament d/ Choosing an appropriate monastery (having regard to the 18 possible faults of a monastery) e/ Severing the lesser impediments While some of the 10 impediments are explained as applying differently for a monk than for a layperson, the later matters assume that the developer of samatha will be a monk. My comments: 1. The texts on the individual kammatthaa (including death) assume the completion of the preparatory matters. Thus they assume a monk who is devoting his life to the development of samatha, by making that aim the overriding factor in his choice of residence and lifestyle (this is the 'factual' observation I was referring to). 2. Presumably such a monk must have already developed samatha to a considerable degree. 3. This is not to say that the development of samatha, even to high level, by a layperson is not possible. (It is possible, but as difficult as it is for a monk, it would be much more difficult for a person still living the household life.) Hoping this clarifies what I was trying to say in my last message, and responds to your comments on it. Jon buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > >> My (factual) observation was made in the context of what needed to have >> been done in order to reach the stage being discussed in the part of >> the text you are quoting, a point you had questioned. > > James: I still question this point because it isn't "factual", it is > merely your opinion. You haven't provided one single quote from the > Vism. to support your opinion that any preliminary stage needs to be > reached prior to the development of jhana, access concentration, or > the like. Actually, I quoted to Sarah quite the opposite. > > All you have done is taken the word "wisely" out of context and > extrapolated all sorts of meanings about that. Jon, that is your > "opinion" not a "fact". > >> I said nothing to the >> effect that lay followers could not also develop samatha to a high >> degree >> > > James: Then we aren't in disagreement. I really don't know why you > keep harping on this issue. You sound like some old woman who wants > to provide a "cautionary tale" to everyone- when no one needs it. ;-)) > >> -- that's a separate issue (and a red herring, James, and I'm >> certainly not rising to dat bait ;-)) > > James: This is not a red herring at all. We were discussing the > relationship between householders and bhikkhus in terms of ability to > develop samatha to the degree described in the Vism. It is not a red > herring to compare your recent comments in that regard as compared to > your past comments. I am trying to get a bearing on what it is > exactly that you are trying to say. Unfortunately, I don't think that > you even know what it is you are trying to say. ;-)) #72251 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 19, 2007 8:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts to Siila Corner (1) to Phil jonoabb Hi Phil Thanks for coming in on this thread. (I replied to your earlier message in a post addressed also to Han.) Phil wrote: > Hi Han, Jon and all > > ... > > In my case, the amount of helpful reflection slides down from the > morning into the afternoon, hits a bottom in the early evening, and > then there is more of it as I get closer to bedtime! :) > > I think it would be a good idea to devlop mental habits during the > day that lead to more mindfulness, for example, specific reflections > when eating meals, going to the bathroom, etc. Things that we do many > times during the day, in a routine kind of way, and which can therefore > be prompts for mindfulness. > I personally find that a lot of reflecting goes on during the day as a result of my involvement in the discussions here. Much of the time I'm not even aware there is reflecting going on. It's quite spontaneous, unforced, undirected even. But definitely about dhammas and the Dhamma. I'm sure you've found the same thing. I think this is an instance of useful reflection on the teachings being conditioned by association with good friends in the Dhamma. I would be inclined to see specific reflections when eating meals, going to the bathroom as being in a different category altogether. I believe these are less likely to be kusala than the spontaneous kind. Slowly and gently does it! Jon #72252 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat May 19, 2007 8:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Last Death is the Absolute Climax = Perfectly Pure Peace! jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > ... > > I would think there would be great benefit and no harm in pondering > over something your teacher told you. I think there would be enormous > harm in gathering everything your teacher ever said, to anyone, and > then gathering everything what his associates and their students over > a long time have said about that, and then feeding your mind with > that, day in, day out. As far as "gathering everything your teacher ever said, to anyone" is concerned, I'd be interested to know what you see as being the "enormous harm" involved. Actually, this was exactly the task of the first Great Council held shortly after the Buddha's parinibbaana. Without that and the efforts of subsequent generations in firstly memorising and later writing down the teachings, there'd be no teachings at all extant today and we wouldn't be having this conversation. As far as "feeding your mind with that, day in, day out" is concerned, I'm not sure where you're coming from here. As I recall, the comment of mine that you disagreed with a couple of posts ago was the idea that one should reflect upon and consider what is contained in the teachings. How does this relate to that issue? > It would be precisely because one is feeding themselves with such an > endless word salad that it would no longer be a possibility to have a > minute of mental silence. Some people like to maintain that things are > just the same now as they were in the days of the Buddha. After all, > they say, it is just the same namas and rupas now as it was then. What > rubbish! Quite apart from the implicit assumption that people in the time of the Buddha couldn't read (not correct, as far as I know), the idea that any different namas and rupas are involved for the person who reads, as compared to the person who doesn't, is an interesting one. I would see it differently: just seeing and thinking and memory performing its function. > For one, the Buddha taught by word of mouth, to people who couldn't > read. In order to learn to read you have to spend years and years at > school. That is years and years of effort to wire your brain to > recognise meaning in squigles. That is years and years of teaching > yourself to see what isn't there. As opposed to years and years of > learning by the Buddha's method to see what is there, ie nothing that > lasts or is worth clinging to. You seem to be saying that the person who has learnt to read is somehow less capable of understanding the teachings and/or developing the path than the person who has not. I am misreading you surely!?! Also, how does your description of the process of learning to read differ from, say, learning to understand and speak a second language, save that a different sense-door (ear-door vs. eye-door) is involved? Would you say that a bi-lingual person was disadvantaged in the same way as a person who has learnt to read? Jon #72253 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat May 19, 2007 9:36 am Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Death-1 buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hoping this clarifies what I was trying to say in my last message, and > responds to your comments on it. > > Jon Thanks for your additional comments but I still don't get your point. As you are saying, the practices described in the Vism. may be appropriate for some monks and for some householders. Yeah…so….??? I don't disagree with you. What is your point? If I, James, decide to practice Mindfulness of Death, as detailed in the Vism., I would sit down, cross-legged, in my home, while alone, and concentrate on the general theme of death. If I was a monk and I wanted to practice the same Mindfulness of Death, as detailed in the Vism., I would sit down, cross-legged, in my kuti (or under a tree or in a cave, etc.) and concentrate on the general theme of death. What would be the difference? As a householder I would be wearing jeans and a t-shirt and as a monk I would be wearing an orange robe and have my head shaved. Other than the outer appearance, it would be the same James. What is written in the Vism. applies to householders just as much as it applies to monks. One needs only to follow the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta, James #72254 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 6:19 am Subject: Re: Anicca and Anatta - An Addendum Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence upasaka_howard Hi yet again, TG (and all) - [A bit more.] In zero time, nothing can exist at all, for zero is truly zero. But as soon as there is any elapse of time at all, even an instant, all is different, not only in the obvious change of increase or decrease or modification in any apparent phenomenon, but as everything is what it is not in isolation but in relation to all else that is, nothing is as it was, and so nothing has survived the elapse of time. And thus all being is utterly delusive, nothing is graspable in any way even for a moment, and, in fact, things and beginnings and continuings and changings and endings are dreams. And the greatest fiction is the fiction of a dreamer. Vast openness, freeness ... slip-sliding away. With metta, Howard #72255 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 19, 2007 11:10 am Subject: Conditions, Intro, no 6 nilovg Dear friends, We read in the "Expositor'' (I,Introductory Discourse,24): "...The bhikkhu, who is ill trained in the Abhidhamma, makes his mind run to excess in metaphysical abstractions and thinks of the unthinkable. Consequently he gets mental distraction..." We should keep in mind the purpose of the study of the conditions as taught in the "Patthåna.'' Each section illustrates the truth that what we take for self are only conditioned phenomena. We keep on forgetting the truth and thus we have to be reminded again and again. We read in the Visuddhimagga (XX,19) that the five khandhas (conditioned nåmas and rúpas) are "as a disease, because of having to be maintained by conditions, and because of being the root of disease''. The khandhas arise because of conditions and what arises because of a concurrence of conditions is not eternal, it has to fall away. Therefore, the khandhas cannot be a real refuge, they are dukkha, unsatisfactory. Further on we read that they are a calamity, an affliction, a plague, no protection, no shelter, as murderous, because of breaking faith like an enemy posing as a friend. We cling to the khandhas,we want their arising again; we wish life to continue. So long as we have not eradicated defilements there will be the arising of the khandhas at birth. We perform kamma which produces rebirth. We still run the risk of an unhappy rebirth produced by akusala kamma [1]. Kamma is accumulated and thus it is capable of producing result later on. Not only kamma, but also defilements are accumulated. Since there are many more akusala cittas arising than kusala cittas, we accumulate defilements again and again, and these cause sorrow. Akusala cittas which arose in the past condition the arising of akusala cittas later on, at present and in the future. The latent tendencies of akusala are like microbes infesting the body and they can become active at any time when the conditions are favourable. So long as the khandhas have not been fully understood by insight defilements have soil to grow in; they are not abandoned and thus the cycle of birth and death continues. In order eventually fully to understand the khandhas we should learn what the conditions are for the phenomena which arise. Therefore, it is beneficial to study the twenty-four conditions which are treated in the "Patthåna''. ----------- Footnote: [1] Those who have attained one of the stages of enlightenment, the ariyans, have no conditions for an unhappy rebirth. ********** Nina. #72256 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 19, 2007 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence nilovg Dear Sarah, I do not have time to look closely. But as to nutriment ahaara, can it be the mano-sa~ncetanaa ahaara? Thus, the mental food that is kamma? Just a thought. Nina. Op 19-mei-2007, om 13:32 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Also, I believe it's an error under cakkhu (eye) when it says 'Eye is > produced by nutriment' after 'eye is produced by action'. The Pali > has: > > "cakkhu.m kammasambhuuta'nti vavattheti" (eye is produced by kamma), > followed by the line about being dependent on the 4 great elements. #72257 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 19, 2007 11:10 am Subject: Perfections N, no 28 nilovg Dear friends, We read in the commentary to the Cariyãpitaka 3) that patience has to be developed together with wisdom. We read: Again, only the man of wisdom can patiently tolerate the wrongs of others, not the dull-witted man. In the man lacking wisdom, the wrongs of others only provoke impatience; for the wise they call his patience into play and make it even grow stronger. . When right understanding of realities grows one understands more clearly that each situation one faces is conditioned al-ready, that it is beyond control. Instead of impatience there can be mindfulness of the reality which appears. The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) states that the Bodhisatta considers the following: Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever. In this way a Bodhisatta becomes fixed in his destiny, bound for enlightenment, irreversible. We need patience for the development of all the perfections. When we realize our many defilements we understand that it takes a long time to eradicate them. Then we will not be disturbed that it takes aeons to accumulate the conditions for enlightenment, that we cannot attain it soon. We need patience to listen to the Dhamma, to consider what we heard and to be aware of realities. Khun Sujin reminded us that 'sati and panña are sankhárakkhandha, the khandha of formations', which are all the mental factors, cetasikas, except feeling (vedanã) and remembrance (saññã). Akusala (unwholesome) cetasikas and sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas are included in sankharakkhandha. The 'formations' form up each moment which arises. Sati and pañna which arise now are conditioned by past accumulations of sati, panna and other wholesome qualities. If there can be right mindfulness of a näma or rupa which appears now this moment has been 'formed up' by many moments of studying, considering and mindfulness in the past. Each moment is conditioned by many factors and the way these condition it is very intricate. A moment of right mindfulness falls away but the conditions for the arising of mindfulness later on are accumulated, since each citta which arises and falls away conditions the next citta. Thus pa~n~na can develop until it has become supramundane understanding (lokuttara paññã), having nibbana as its object. Each moment which has been formed up by past accumulations is new, it cannnot be the same as past moments, it does not come into being by simply adding up all the past moments. Lokuttara panna is a completely new situation, but it is conditioned by many different factors of the past, by many moments of studying, of considering, of developing understanding of nama and rupa, and also of developing all the perfections. All the different wholesome qualities support one another and together they form up the conditions for the fully developed pa~n~na. ---------- [1] Ven. Bodhi, p. 279. ___________________ Nina. #72258 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 19, 2007 11:30 am Subject: discussion and a question, nilovg Dear Sarah and Howard, You are both good at formulating. I often write: they are only nama and rupa, they are only elements. Lodewijk does not like the use of the word only. I explained that it implies that they are slight, insignificant, in Pali: paritta. We find them so important but they fall away immediately. They are like what is contained in an empty fist, when you open a fist. Nothing in it. Then I read to Lodewijk the Conditions, Intro, emphasizing loudly each word: < Therefore, the khandhas cannot be a real refuge, they are dukkha, unsatisfactory. Further on we read that they are a calamity, an affliction, a plague, no protection, no shelter, as murderous, because of breaking faith like an enemy posing as a friend...> Lodewijk said after each expression: yes, perfectly true, correct, true. He suggested to use sometimes: mere dhammas. Nina. #72259 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections N, no 28 upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/19/07 2:22:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Sati and pañna which > arise now are conditioned by past accumulations of sati, panna and > other wholesome qualities. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: The past is gone. As for now, what if sati rarely arises and pa~n~na even more rarely. There are truly evil people in this world almost totally overcome by defilements, with akusala states overwhelming kusala states. Those akusala states will lead to future akusala states and negative "accumulations" far outweighing positive. Is their eventual awakening therefore hopeless? The conditions are as they are. Can there then be no positive change for them? If yes, WHY and HOW? It is not enough to say that it is a matter of conditions. How is there to be a CHANGE in conditions? A change for the better? (You know my answer: Intentional practice as the Buddha taught. What is your answer, Nina?) ---------------------------------------- If there can be right mindfulness of a > > näma or rupa which appears now this moment has been ‘formed up’ by > many moments of studying, considering and mindfulness in the past. > ------------------------------------- Howard: What if there cannot be right mindfulness now? And will someone beset by defilement, overwhelmed by defilement, and only getting worse engage in study, considering, and mindfulness? There was a man of compromised intelligence who was unable to study, consider, and be mindful. He was impaired. The Buddha, whom the man of low intelligence had heard was a buddha (surely like a god(!)), handed the man a clean rag, and told him that some magic could come about if the man would just rub that rag again and again and again, and the simple man listened to the Great Man and willfully and eagerly did as he said, and he grew calm, and collected, and at peace, and clarity and attention became heightened, and wisdom arose, and he reached the first stage of awakening! Conditions can be brought about now! But it requires that action be taken. ====================== With metta, Howard #72260 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] discussion and a question, upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Sarah) - In a message dated 5/19/07 2:30:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear Sarah and Howard, > You are both good at formulating. I often write: they are only nama > and rupa, they are only elements. Lodewijk does not like the use of > the word only. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I have to smile. I have no problem with the 'only', though it isn't a very special word. It is the 'elements' that I don't like! ;-) ---------------------------------------- I explained that it implies that they are slight, > > insignificant, in Pali: paritta. We find them so important but they > fall away immediately. They are like what is contained in an empty > fist, when you open a fist. Nothing in it. > Then I read to Lodewijk the Conditions, Intro, emphasizing loudly > each word: are dukkha, unsatisfactory. Further on we read that they are a > calamity, an affliction, a plague, no protection, no shelter, as > murderous, because of breaking faith like an enemy posing as a > friend...> > Lodewijk said after each expression: yes, perfectly true, correct, true. > He suggested to use sometimes: mere dhammas. > Nina. > ======================== I approve of the expression 'mere dhammas'. The word 'mere' really implies clearly the insignificant status. They are as fragile as gossamer wings. They are as fleeting as bubbles in a stream. They are ungraspable, utterly dependent ghosts of ghosts, reflections of reflections, mirages of mirages - nothing at all in and of themselves. As in the Phena Sutta: Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick â€" this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately. Despite Lodewijk's not liking the use of 'only', it is proper, I think, though 'mere' sounds even better to me. In fact, I think that dhammas are even less than you think, Nina. What isn't realized by many folks, I believe, is that the insubstantial, ephemeral nature of dhammas is nothing to fear. It is simple truth. That no safe haven is to be found in the ungraspable does not mean that there is no safe haven. As I see it, letting go our attempting to grasp at straws, relinquishing everything, opens up an unimagined vista that is the true safe haven and the ultimate happiness. Practice of the Dhamma, including meditation, can, when carried far enough, give an inkling and a preview, and can put at ease the fearful heart. BTW, I like the open-fist simile of yours, Nina! With metta, Howard #72261 From: "Larry" Date: Sat May 19, 2007 1:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Great detective work! Regarding my interpretation of "mind" as "brain", notice that this section is concerned with vatthu, the physical basis of the various consciousnesses. I thought mano vatthu must be the heart base. I notice in the Buddhist Dictionary that the mano vatthu is not given a specific location in the Patthana. Later commentators assigned it to the heart, while this commentator assigned it to the brain. But it is interesting that this text didn't say that this vatthu was derived from the four great elements. Perhaps there are variations in different editions of the text. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi TG & Larry, > > I gave up waiting for Pali expertise and tried to sort out our problem > here: > > --- TGrand458@... wrote: > > > eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind, are derived from the > > Four Great > > Elements... > > (The Path of Discrimination, (PD), Patisambhidamagga) treatise 1, > > paragraphs > > 371-377) > .... > S: In the Pali, mano is given for mind. This refers to all kinds of > consciousness as you (TG) and I thought. Definitley not 'brain', Larry! > > As I mentioned before, the PTS English translation is rather difficult to > follow and does lead to the conclusion you quote above. > > I've just had a look at the Pali: > http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/5Khuddaka-Nikaya/12Patisambhidamagga/ 01-Mahavagga/1-Nyanakatha/15-vatthunanattanana-katha-p.html > > I found something interesting. Whereas the PTS translation for Mano (mind) > internally just refers us to #371 again, in fact the Pali is not exactly > the same. > > For the eye, there is a line: > > "mahaa bhuutaana.m upaadaayaa'ti vavattheti" (Eye is derived from the four > great elements), followed by "cakkhu.m uppanna'nti vavattheti" (Eye is > arisen). > > The same line (about being derived from the 4 great elements) is given for > the ear, nose, tongue and body as in "kaayo catunna.m mahaabhuutaana.m > upaadaayaa'ti vavattheti". > > However, when it comes to mano (mind/consciousness), I don't see this line > about being derived from the 4 great elements. After the line about being > dependent on nutriment (aahaarasambhuuto), it jumps to the line about > being arisen: > "mano aahaarasambhuuto'ti vavattheti mano uppanno'ti vavattheti..." > > Also, I believe it's an error under cakkhu (eye) when it says 'Eye is > produced by nutriment' after 'eye is produced by action'. The Pali has: > > "cakkhu.m kammasambhuuta'nti vavattheti" (eye is produced by kamma), > followed by the line about being dependent on the 4 great elements. > > I think this settles the question about how mano (consciousness) is said > in the text to be derived from the 4 great elements. It doesn't! I believe > it's just some rather careless translation. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== > #72262 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 10:14 am Subject: Re: Anicca and Anatta - An Addendum Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence TGrand458@... Hi Howard, (All) I really enjoyed reading all three of your posts. You are able to see impermanence from many different angles. This second post is the one that sees it most closely to the way I see it. So I'm going to start here. In a message dated 5/19/2007 6:17:59 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi again, TG - There is an even more radical sense of impermanence that somewhat harmonizes your alteration/change view with my cessation view into what I think is a synthesis closer to the truth than either of these. That more radical sense of impermanence is that when anything has altered in any respect at all, the "original" has ceased! From this perspective, when a rupa is in the midst of its increase, leveling-off, and decline process - that is, while it "exists" - it doesn't actually remain at all even for a moment! ................................................ NEW TG: Exactly! ............................................... And here we have anicca and anatta coming together!! Whatever doesn't remain identically the same at any time is utterly insubstantial and without essence. Here we have instantaneous cessation. ...................................................... NEW TG: Exactly! ....................................................... And this applies all the more clearly, I think, to namas. The point of impermanence is, I think, cessation, not transformation, but the cessation is *radical*. What "changes" in any way at all in fact no longer exists as an entity and actually never did. ................................................................... NEW TG: Exactly! Great final sentence above! However, I see it as applying to namas and rupas in the same way, i.e., not to one more than the other. But, and this may be your point, because of the fast speed in which consciousness moves, it may be easier to "see it" happening there. .................................................................. Anicca merges right into anatta. ................................................................. NEW TG: Yes. The "mechanics" of conditionality forge impermanence and no-self simultaneously. ................................................................. We have to be very, very careful, I think, in these discussions of ours. It is SO easy to fall into the trap of reification even when discussing something like impermanence. The "transformation perspective" leads us into a kind of continuationist substantialism that countenances continuation of substance along with variation in form, .................................................................... NEW TG: It need not to. Its only if the "person" considering it considers it in that way. It can just as well be considered as you have said prior... that entities/objects never arise in the first place. I.E., there's nothing to continue because there was nothing to begin with. There was just impermanence/no-self to begin with...and that's all that "remains." ......................................................................... and the "cessation perspective" leads us into a kind of discrete-phenomena-a kind of discrete-phenomena-annihilati entities that are annihilated. The reality, I think, is different from each of these, radically different, and deeply difficult to see. IMO, we need to keep anatta/su~n~anatta/su~n~nata aways in front of our eyes. It is the "g ........................................................................ NEW TG: It may be asked...Then why did the Buddha speak of arising and ceasing? I believe its because he is referring to "formations" as we commonly perceive them. So yes, our cars, our houses, ourselves, arise and cease; our feelings and thoughts as well ... and we can't hold onto the things we are attached to. But this is speaking/teaching toward a "deluded mind-set." In actuality, there is just continuous change and these other things, that we think of as arising and ceasing, are delusions. The advantage in focusing on cessation is ... that is highlights dukkha. I.E., we will lose everything. Do we actually feel "hardness"? Yes. But when it arises, it arises due to conditions which are just mutually changing. Other than from a subjective perspective, there is no "thing" hardness. There is just continuous alteration of empty formations. ........................................................................ TG OUT #72263 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 10:34 am Subject: Re: Anicca and Anatta - An Addendum Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence upasaka_howard Hi, TG - Just copying a bit of what you wrote, and only adding a bit toa part of that. In a message dated 5/19/07 5:22:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > And here we have anicca > and anatta coming together!! Whatever doesn't remain identically the same > at > any time is utterly insubstantial and without essence. Here we have > instantaneous cessation. > ...................................................... > > NEW TG: Exactly! > > ....................................................... > > > > And this applies all the more clearly, I think, to namas. The > point of impermanence is, I think, cessation, not transformation, but the > cessation is *radical*. What "changes" in any way at all in fact no longer > exists as > an entity and actually never did. > ................................................................... > > NEW TG: Exactly! Great final sentence above! > > However, I see it as applying to namas and rupas in the same way, i.e., not > > to one more than the other. But, and this may be your point, because of > the > fast speed in which consciousness moves, it may be easier to "see it" > happening there. > ============================= It's not the relative speed I had in mind, but the greater the complexity of variation in a nama. A rupa rises in intensity, crescendos, and declines with little other variation. But a nama is an operation, and, per force, it has greater complexity. With metta, Howard #72264 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 10:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence TGrand458@... Hi Sarah (and Larry) That's very interesting. THANK YOU very much for researching it Sarah!!! TG OUT #72265 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 11:10 am Subject: Re: Anicca and Anatta - An Addendum Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence TGrand458@... Hi Howard, (All) Continuing my out of order responses, here's a look at your third post. In a message dated 5/19/2007 11:20:05 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi yet again, TG (and all) - [A bit more.] In zero time, nothing can exist at all, for zero is truly zero. But as soon as there is any elapse of time at all, even an instant, all is different, not only in the obvious change of increase or decrease or modification in any apparent phenomenon, but as everything is what it is not in isolation but in relation to all else that is, nothing is as it was, and so nothing has survived the elapse of time. ................................................................ NEW TG: Yes ................................................................. And thus all being is utterly delusive, nothing is graspable in any way even for a moment, and, in fact, things and beginnings and continuings and changings and endings are dreams. ..................................................................... NEW TG: Fantastic!!! Keeping in mind that this outlook, which I agree with, is from the more or less "ultimate perspective." That is, we are looking at conditionality "objectively" from the "outside." (I think this is where we want to be too.) But for us ignoramuses, I think we will need to keep bouncing our viewpoints from this "outside" overview perspective, to the more basic "inside" perspective...of seeing/experiencing the change of formations ... to continue deepening insight ... until we can finally let go of this crap ... as it becomes seen as only dukkha. .......................................................................... And the greatest fiction is the fiction of a dreamer. Vast openness, freeness ... slip-sliding away. ......................................................................... NEW TG: If one reflects deeply, one can see that -- "ordinary" impermanence -- contains all the information to come to the conclusions Howard has posted in his last two posts on this topic. Even though some things may appear to last through a measurement of time, they really don't. All things are continuously changing in relation to the conditions affecting them. Conditionality is the combining of conditions and this is also what impermanence is. Its a continuous and dynamic process. Energies are interacting and forging the forms that "appear" to arise....including consciousness. What arises is not only NOT what it appears to be, due to conditionality and its "resultant" nature, it never actually arises (as a thing/object) because its continuously altering. Its a "double no-self" wild wacky world. ;-) .............................................................................. ......... TG OUT #72266 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 11:20 am Subject: Re: Anicca and Anatta - An Addendum Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/19/2007 3:40:05 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: It's not the relative speed I had in mind, but the greater the complexity of variation in a nama. A rupa rises in intensity, crescendos, and declines with little other variation. But a nama is an operation, and, per force, it has greater complexity. With metta, Howard Hi Howard To tell you the truth, In my own thinking, I don't separate nama and rupa as is traditionally done. I don't see them as "separate things" other than conventionally. But, I do agree that mentality is a very complicated process with enormous structuring factors and without thinking about it too deeply, I can't think of any rupa situation that is as complex. TG #72267 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 12:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence TGrand458@... Hi Howard, (All) Response to your first post.... In a message dated 5/19/2007 5:53:29 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG - In a message dated 5/19/07 12:44:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: > Hi All > > Its been suggested that the Buddha Dhamma's impermanence is somehow meant > as > something different than our "ordinary" idea of impermanence. -------------------------------------------- Howard: What I suggest is that 'anicca' means "impermanent" (a-nicca) in the sense of "not permanent", the primary dictionary rendering. There are examples such as what you give below in the suttas and examples of sudden cessation of khandhic elements as well. The Buddha used ordinary language for the most part. He wasn't a philosophy professor, but a teacher who led people to free themselves. -------------------------------------------- .......................................................................... NEW TG: Continuous change or impermanence ... they both render the same result from the way I see them. The arising, changing, and ceasing of formations is based on conditional circumstances. Sudden is as sudden does. ;-) I.E., if the structuring conditions move fast, the "resultant" conditions will too. Note: we are one level below the "discussion level" of your second and third posts ... in terms of "ultimateness." ........................ ............................................................. > > The Buddha makes these following analogies... > > > “When, Bhikkhus (Buddhist monks), a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice > looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and > his > thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away > > today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the > knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away.â€? > (The Buddha . . . The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (CDB), (Samyutta > Nikaya), vol. 1, pg. 960 â€" 961) > And, after being asked if he could describe the time period of an aeon, the > > Buddha said: â€" “Suppose, brother, there were a great crag, a hill one > yogana wide (about 7-8 miles), one yogana across, one yogana high without > chasms > or clefts, a solid mass. And a man at the end of every hundred years were > to > stroke it once each time with a kasi cloth. Well, that mountain in this > way > would sooner be done away with and ended than an aeon.â€? > (The Buddha . . . KS, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) > “…suppose there were a seafaring ship bound with rigging that had worn out > > in the water for six months. It would be hauled up on dry land during the > > cold season and its rigging would further be attacked by wind and sun. > Inundated by rain from a rain cloud, the rigging would easily collapse and > rot > away.â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1557) > TG: This all sounds like what I think of when I think of "ordinary > impermanence. i > Comments? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Even from the conventional-Even from the conventional-object persp away" consist of? Parts of the item, .................................................................. NEW TG: Referring to your "radical" impermanence, continuous alteration does not allow consideration of "parts of objects." Change is according to conditions. Change is not inherent within the formation as abhidhamma seems to suggest. But it is a quality of conditionaliity...dynamic movement, continuous change. Change is inherent in a "conditionality matrix." All formations are impermanent, not due to "themselves," but due to conditionality processes/interaction. .................................................................... whether it be an adze handle, a mountain peak, or a ship, have ceased as part of the item. In general, when the conceptual things of the world change/alter, what is happening is that at a finer level, some items have ceased and/or others appeared. At the grosser level this appears as transformation. .................................................................. NEW TG: I think "transformation" is the more subtle view. Trans = moving. A trans-formation is moving in form. The form is altering. Essentially it means the form is disintegration. It disintegrates due to interaction of conditions. I.E., formations wear each other away, through friction, contact, -- they are rubbed away, pounded away, broken and scattered. “Imposthume, brethren, is a term for body, of the four elements compounded, of parents sprung, on rice and gruel fed, impermanent, of a nature to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered.â€? (The Buddha . . . Book of the Kindred Sayings (KS), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 4, pg. 50) .................................................................... Look at "a person's body" from birth to death. We say it has changed. By the time of death, in fact, everything originally there is long gone. Those elements ceased, did not remain, were im-permanent. .............................................................................. . NEW TG: Those elements "passed through" the body and became fertilizer, which became a condition for plants, that became a condition for animals, etc. Or the air was compositionally changed which became air useable by plants, trees, etc. So, I see it as a process of continuous alteration. The thing we conceived as a formation has ceased yes, but that was just OUR VIEW of something ceasing. Of course your follow up posts have demonstrated you are aware of this aspect and outlook. I'm not going to analyze any more of this post because I think we have already surpassed it. If others are reading, maybe what's been said so far will be useful. ......................................................................... TG OUT The "body", utterly dependent, across time, on parts and on mental imputation, "that" body that "still exists" it seems, is a kind of fiction in the sense that at any moment it is just a collection of simpler phenomena, the contents of which collection change completely in not that much time, and yet after that time, when nothing at all has remained, we yet think "This is still my body." The body's transformation is just the appearance resulting from lower-level impermanence. I think that the situation for paramattha dhammas is similar but not quite the same. The "life" of a rupa - say hardness - is one of growth in intensity, leveling-off of intensity, and decline in intensity, a limited transformation, but throughout it was always hardness, with only its intensity varying. Prior to this, there was no hardness, and subsequent to this there no longer is the hardness. The fact that hardness appears when there was none previously is called "arising", and the fact that no hardness appears when there had previously been hardness is called "cessation." The non-remaining of a hardness is its impermanence, not its change in intensity while existing. (Namas are similar, but their life-cycle variation is far more complex and more difficult to discuss.) In general, the Buddha did not just point to change in macroscopic entities, but to their actual cessation. And he pointed to cessation of khandhic elements. Again and again, the Buddha said that whatever arises, ceases. Ceasing isn't just variation in form, but dropping out of existence. That is the true anicca, as I see it, but at the macroscopic level it manifests as change. ------------------------------------------------ > TG > ============ ======== With metta, Howard #72268 From: "m_nease" Date: Sat May 19, 2007 4:17 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner m_nease Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > 3. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome and > the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome and the root of the > wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is > straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at > this true Dhamma." D'you reckon that this would fall under BB's opinion of mundane right view or supramundane right view? The final phrase suggests the latter to me ("perfect confidence" etc). Do you think that there is a 'conventional' right view re. understanding the unwholesome, the root of unwholesome etc.? If so, do you think do you think that this conventional (intellectual) right view is a prerequisite to supramundane right view? I know some of us have been over this ground before, still I'd be interested in any documentation from the Paali texts either for or against the idea. Thanks in Advance, mike #72269 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence lbidd2 Hi TG (and Howard), My only comment is that the examples you gave are of the impermanence of rupa, and specifically of rupa wearing away rupa. Since rupa only arises in groups it seems that that creates an unstable situation that inevitably collapses. This fits in nicely with the philosophical word derivation of 'rupa' coming from 'ruppana', 'being molested', this being the primary reason rupa is dukkha. Also, it seems to me that even though consciousness is technically more impermanent in the sense that it arises and ceases faster, meditative states that minimize or eliminate rupa may seem almost timeless. I wonder if either of you guys know anything about the 'time/space continuum'. If there is no physical space, as in the formless realm, can there be time or a sense of impermanence? Larry #72270 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat May 19, 2007 5:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? egberdina Hi Jon, On 17/05/07, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > We probably have a differing definition of concept. For me a concept > > is an aggregation of various sense data, feelings and thought, all at > > once. > > > > You've lost me, I'm afraid. The statements 'Everything is concept' and > 'A concept is an aggregation of various sense data, feelings and > thought' seem inconsistent, because the latter acknowledges that there > *are* (individual) sense data, feelings and thought that are not > themselves concepts. Perhaps I'm missing something. > I have highlighted one crucial word in the above. You take the view that there *are* ultimate existents, while I take the view that your ultimate existents are also only concepts. You might reply that therefore there *are* concepts for me. I would have to agree, but qualify that by saying that even these concepts are only concepts. Both your ultimate existents and my concepts are not to be found. Herman #72271 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat May 19, 2007 5:31 pm Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? kenhowardau Hi Elaine, Sorry about the delay: sometimes I don't know if a discussion has ended or not. I suppose, when in doubt keep going. :-) ----------- <. . .> > Elaine: After reading it, I sat down to meditate for half an hour. Hoping one day to get a glimpse of Nibbana. There is too much suffering in life, I hope to escape from Samsara, step-by-step. ------------ You might get a glimpse, but it won't be of nibbana. As we can see from another current thread, formal meditation is the same as drug taking. Instead of drugs it relies on sensory deprivation, but (when meditation occasionally works) the chemical reactions in the brain are similar. Sometimes they will produce a sense of certainty. They will cause Christians to know *beyond doubt* that they are in the presence of Christ, and they will cause Buddhists to know *beyond doubt* they are experiencing either insight or jhana. In fact, they are experiencing a chemical malfunction. The true Dhamma does not promise weird and wonderful sensations. It promises a gradually increasing wisdom. When Nibbana is directly experienced it will not come as a surprise. It will be experienced by a fully developed wisdom that had slowly become more and more aware of what to expect. From beginning to end, vipassana is a way of understanding. --------------------- E: > Btw, Ken, should Buddhism be sooo complicated? --------------------- Suttas describe the Dhamma as profound, pertaining to the void and difficult to see. -------------- E: > Life is already complicated as it is. -------------- Let's not complicate it more by messing with our minds. ---------------------- E: > I hope to discuss the advanced Dhamma/abhidhamma later on. Right now, I hope to understand the basic foundation of the Buddha's teachings. There are so many views out there and I'm still trying to figure out which one is the "real right view". I also like this sentence from Nina, "Conditions can be cultivated by listening, considering, applying the Dhamma." It is a very positive out-take on conditions. :-) ----------------------- Yes, but it has to be understood the right way. And the right way is profound, pertaining to the void and difficult to see. :-) Ken H #72272 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 1:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence TGrand458@... In a message dated 5/19/2007 6:20:05 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: If there is no physical space, as in the formless realm, can there be time or a sense of impermanence? Larry Hi Larry Only from the descriptions in the texts...where Devas are very long lived and apparently are not aware they are impermanent ... until they start to smell bad or otherwise start to deteriorate. I guess the answer is that there is a sense of impermanence but it is even much more subtle then our sense of it...which aint that great either. Perhaps in the "non-return" planes there is enough insight to know that consciousness is impermanent and they are aware of a sense of impermanence. Of course this is all just from the texts and not something I can really know with my limited "powers." TG #72273 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sat May 19, 2007 6:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? egberdina Hi Elaine, On 17/05/07, Sobhana wrote: > > > Therefore, in the case where I have no control over my actions, I am afraid of the day >when the conditions for weighthy bad kamma happens. Is there anything to do to prevent >it from happening? Metaphorically, are there any preventive medicine to prevent a disease >from occuring? Studying the Dhamma is a good conditioning for wholesomeness, are >there anything else that can be done? The disease is judging the world in terms of an "I". The judgments are "I am this", "I am that", "I am not this", "I am not that", "I am doing this", "I am refraining from doing that". And you can subsitute past tense and future tense in there as well. "I was this", "I will be this". Judging the world is the same as the holding of views. The antidote is mindfulness ie not judging the world, not holding views. Mindfulness takes the form of an unspoken and unthought "this is happening", simply being present to whatever there may be. When there is mindfulness, there is studying the Dhamma. Herman #72274 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sat May 19, 2007 6:46 pm Subject: Re: Anatta Rules antony272b2 Dear Howard, When I think of "Antony" or "Howard" I can think that "Antony" and "Howard" are a *situation*. The dictionary says: situation: noun {C} 1 the set of things that are happening and the conditions that exist at a particular time and place http://www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/situate with metta / Antony. #72275 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat May 19, 2007 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > . Later commentators assigned > it to the heart, while this commentator assigned it to the brain. +\_____________ Dear Larry Do you have the referene to the Commentary that said the mind arises in the brain? Robert #72276 From: "Phil" Date: Sat May 19, 2007 7:17 pm Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? philofillet Hi Ken and all > As we can see > from another current thread, formal meditation is the same as drug > taking. Instead of drugs it relies on sensory deprivation, Incorrect. May be true for those who seek jhanas, which I don't, but not of what is usually called vipassana meditation. (Which is, as all good teachers acknowledg, not actually vipassana, but "in the vicinity of vipassana" as one Burmese Sayadaw put it. Vipassana may be the result.) Metta, Phil #72277 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 9:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence lbidd2 Hi Robert, R: "Do you have the reference to the Commentary that said the mind arises in the brain?" Larry: By "this commentator assigned it [mind base] to the brain" I meant me. Larry #72278 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat May 19, 2007 5:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta Rules upasaka_howard Hi, Antony - In a message dated 5/19/07 9:46:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, antony272b@... writes: > Dear Howard, > > When I think of "Antony" or "Howard" I can think that "Antony" and > "Howard" are a *situation*. > The dictionary says: > situation: noun {C} > 1 the set of things that are happening and the conditions that exist > at a particular time and place > http://www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/situate > > with metta / Antony. > ============================ Yes, at any given moment, there is fuzzy collection of events, past and occurring, that are interrelated, and which is thought of as a unit-entity called "Antony". The same for "Howard". But each collection is a mental creation, a construct built from odds and ends of phenomena arising via five sense doors and mightily reconstructed by mind - not a single phenomenon at all. With metta, Howard #72279 From: "Phil" Date: Sat May 19, 2007 11:23 pm Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? philofillet Hi again > Incorrect. May be true for those who seek jhanas, which I don't, but This is fun. I'm posting from work between classes. I've never done that before. Correction to my correction of Ken above. I mean that it may be true that jhanas rely on sensory deprivation (I don't know) but the part about meditation being the same as taking drugs is just plain (ahem, let me practice my new non-harmfulness) stuuuuuuupendously doubtful! :) Metta, Phil #72280 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 12:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? egberdina Hi KenH (and RobA and Antony), On 20/05/07, kenhowardau wrote: > A word of warning here, this is going to be a bit of unstructured ramble. I must say that I think you have written some great posts lately. You are just going to have to take my word for it, but I had some earmarked for reply, when the whole "Phil the golden wonderboy" thing happened :-). I felt that if I replied to those earmarked posts with praise, it may have seemed insincere, so I just let it go. The fact remains, I find myself in the scary position of often agreeing with you. :-) As an aside, RobA and I had a bit of a discussion recently wherein I wondered what is a good or kind deed? I am going to wonder the same thing aloud to you, is it a good or useful thing to praise someone else's posts because you agree with them? I honestly don't know. > > You might get a glimpse, but it won't be of nibbana. A couple of sadhus in the general direction of the ageing surfie. As we can see > from another current thread, formal meditation is the same as drug > taking. Instead of drugs it relies on sensory deprivation, but (when > meditation occasionally works) the chemical reactions in the brain > are similar. While I agree 100% with what you say here, what you say here also applies to any other activity I can think of. Not necessarily the sensory deprivation thing, but certainly that all action is geared towards bringing about a change. And that change is a change of mind or brain, however anyone wants to portray it. Whether it is reading, walking, shopping, surfing, meditating etc when these are seen as activities that are put in motion by "me", they may as well be the taking of drugs, all with the intent of changing "me". >Sometimes they will produce a sense of certainty. They > will cause Christians to know *beyond doubt* that they are in the > presence of Christ, and they will cause Buddhists to know *beyond > doubt* they are experiencing either insight or jhana. In fact, they > are experiencing a chemical malfunction. Perhaps I don't agree with you as often as I thought :-) Malfunction is misleading here, it implies that things ought to be different to what they are in the situation (thanks Antony) that brought it about. Which I think you would agree is not a very sensible proposition? > > The true Dhamma does not promise weird and wonderful sensations. More of them sadhus. It > promises a gradually increasing wisdom. I don't disagree with you here, but in order to say this you have to leave your "present moment only" paradigm behind, IMO. When Nibbana is directly > experienced it will not come as a surprise. It will be experienced by > a fully developed wisdom that had slowly become more and more aware > of what to expect. From beginning to end, vipassana is a way of > understanding. > How Nibbana is thought of is how Nibbana is thought of. In terms of persons, their conception of Nibbana defines that person's aspirations. It would be stupid of me, and anyone else, to argue the truth of people's definitions of themselves. May you attain Nibbana (whatever that is for you) in this very lifetime (whatever that is) Herman #72281 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 12:57 am Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? kenhowardau Hi Phil, -------- Ph: > Incorrect. May be true for those who seek jhanas, which I don't, but <…> Correction to my correction of Ken above. I mean that it may be true that jhanas rely on sensory deprivation (I don't know) -------------- It is hard to make this clear, but I will repeat for the millionth time that jhana meditation is, in my opinion, *not formal meditation.* Originally, the practice of sitting straight-backed in a quiet place was followed only after kusala consciousness had been developed to an extraordinary degree. The practitioners were already "established in morality and moderation.." Their next step was to develop intense concentration in order to enter a state of jhana absorption. Today, there is a farcical parody of this practice, in which people who are by no means established in either morality or moderation nonetheless head off for a quiet retreat where they convince themselves they are practising jhana. That is what I mean by "formal meditation." The other, genuine, meditation is not formal (forced) at all; it is a natural progression in the of development kusala consciousness. ------------------------- Ph > but the part about meditation being the same as taking drugs is just plain (ahem, let me practice my new non-harmfulness) stuuuuuuupendously doubtful! :) ------------------------- Thanks for the non-harmfulness. You're not in the Abbott or van Gorkom league yet, but you're trying. :-) But surely you are not attributing the link between drugs and meditation to me! (?) I don't think there was anything new in what I said. It is very common for former hippies and the like to be trying to attain the same highs through mediation as they used to attain through drugs. The point I was trying to make to Elaine was that those people were on a fool's errand. Vipassana is about understanding; it is not about weird and wonderful sensations. The same can be said for jhana, although the object of understanding is different. Ken H #72282 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 12:58 am Subject: Q. re: Perfections no 28. nilovg Hi Howard, ---------- H: The past is gone. As for now, what if sati rarely arises and pa~n~na even more rarely. There are truly evil people in this world almost totally overcome by defilements, with akusala states overwhelming kusala states. Those akusala states will lead to future akusala states and negative "accumulations" far outweighing positive. Is their eventual awakening therefore hopeless? The conditions are as they are. Can there then be no positive change for them? If yes, WHY and HOW? It is not enough to say that it is a matter of conditions. How is there to be a CHANGE in conditions? A change for the better? (You know my answer: Intentional practice as the Buddha taught. What is your answer, Nina?) ---------------------------------------- N: Even what you call intentional practice is dependent on conditions, it does not fall out of the blue sky, don't you think so? We cannot know someopne else's accumulations of kusala and akusala in the past. Only a Buddha can know someone else's dispositions. A positive change: possible if there are also accumulations of kusala, and if he meets the right friend in Dhamma, listens and considers the dhamma and applies it. -------- If there can be right mindfulness of a > > näma or rupa which appears now this moment has been 'formed up' by > many moments of studying, considering and mindfulness in the past. > ------------------------------------- Howard: What if there cannot be right mindfulness now? And will someone beset by defilement, overwhelmed by defilement, and only getting worse engage in study, considering, and mindfulness? ------ N: See above. ---------- H: There was a man of compromised intelligence who was unable to study, consider, and be mindful. He was impaired. The Buddha, whom the man of low intelligence had heard was a buddha (surely like a god(!)), handed the man a clean rag, and told him that some magic could come about if the man would just rub that rag again and again and again, and the simple man listened to the Great Man and willfully and eagerly did as he said, and he grew calm, and collected, and at peace, and clarity and attention became heightened, and wisdom arose, and he reached the first stage of awakening! Conditions can be brought about now! But it requires that action be taken. ------ N: Yes, mentioned in the Vis. He met the Buddha in person and the Buddha knew his disposition. This passage is sometimes used to erroneously show that study is not necessary. The right conditions for this or that person are different. The Buddha knew, he was omniscient. It is off the mark to think that for us today study is not necessary. You say that action should be taken, intentional practice. It depends on what kind of action or practice. I have a question. Some people say that Kh Sujin is not Theravada since she does not encourage what is called formal meditation. Has the Buddha ever said that everybody has to develop tranquillity, that it is not possible to become enlightened by vipassana alone? You find sitting meditation helpful but do you go so far as to say that it is an indispensable condition for enlightenment? I find no corroboration for this in the Tipitaka. People are of different dispositions. Ven. Bodhi also does not say that this is necessary, at least for attaining the state of sotaapanna and sakadagaamii. Nina. #72283 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 1:38 am Subject: Mind Body Immersing! bhikkhu5 Friends: Immersing Body in the Mind & Mind in the Body! The Blessed Buddha once said: When, Ananda , the Tathagata immerses the body in the mind & the mind in the body, by entering and dwelling in a blissful and buoyant experience of the body, it happens that the body of the Tathagata rises spontaneously up without difficulty from earth up into the air just as a light tuft of cotton easily rises up into the air in the wind. Then he possesses all the various kinds of supra-human forces: Having been one, he becomes many; having been many, he becomes one; he appears & he vanishes; he goes unhindered through a wall, through a barricade, & through a mountain as through open space; he dives in and out of the earth at if it were water; he flies freely in space like a bird yet seated cross-legged, he walks on water as though it were solid earth without sinking; with his hand he touches & strikes both the moon & sun so powerful and mighty; he masters the body and forms as far as the fine-dark-material Brahma world ! Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:283-84] section 51: The 4 Forces. Thread 22: The Iron Ball. http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/aa/aananda.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/t/tathaagata.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/library/DPPN/b/brahmaloka.htm http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html Mind Body Immersing! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <...> #72284 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 2:04 am Subject: Impermanent versus inconstant. nilovg Hi Howard and T.G., ------------ > N: Do not forget the role of sa~n~naa and the fastness of the > processes of eye-door, mind-door, etc. We do not have to think of > V.O. as one single colour. ------------------------------------------- Howard: In fact I do not. My point exactly is that if such were the case, we would no way see as we see. We would just see a homogeneous red "screen" followed by a white one,then a black one, then grey, then blue, etc, and this stream of visible objects would not account for our normal seeing..... -------------------------------------------------- N: I agree, seeing sees what appears through the eyes in a natural way. -------- I often asked in the past how far V.O. > > extended and the answer was invariably: just whatever appears through > the eyesense. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: And I agree with that. The question is: Exactly what IS that. Without saying more, there might as well be nothing said at all! To say that visible object is what it is, is neither deep nor even slightly useful. ---------------------------------------------- N: It is what it is, and this means: it has a characteristic that can be directly experienced and its characteristic is what it is, it cannot be changed. Visible object has a characteristic different from sound. When we begin to understand a little more of what satipatthana is and what its object, thus, the object of satipatthana/vipassana, such an answer is useful, it reminds us to be aware of what appears naturally. We should get this message. It is deep and useful. This should be enough. When sati sampaja~n~na arises, > > more will be understood. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: It is nowhere nearly enough. There are enough places where Khun Sujin has said that a visible object is colors (plural), for me to take that as her position. If she didn't mean that, then she should have said something further or different. I don't buy this business of Abhidhamma being extremely detailed and yet completely fuzzy. That is odd to say the least. ---------------------------------------------- N: We can use the term colour or visible object or what is visible, all that is visible now. It does not matter. The abhidhamma points to awareness now. Be aware of visible object or seeing when there is seeing. We cannot know the truth when thinking. > We cannot count processes, they are too fast. --------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not interested in counting. But I don't believe that clear reasoning is to be dismissed either. I am unwilling to accept all sorts of detailed claims about Mount Sineru and "great earth parasols" on faith, yet also accept that there is no detailed information about visible objects that would account for visual perception. ---------------------------------------------- N: Here is some info: Vis. Ch XIV, 54. 6. Tiika: <(Its function is) being the objective field, it is object- condition. Sense-object is just the objective field, and therein the diversity of visible data is not to be found elsewhere, and it is an object of abundant relish for seeing-consciousness.> N: Not elsewhere, not when there is hearing, thinking, etc. In the Dhammasangani (618) all kinds of colours are given as an example. Since there are countless moments of seeing arising closely one after the other and mind-door processes in between, it is hard to pinpoint visible object. And think of the two eyes! Only one citta at a time can experience one object at a time for sure. Sati sampaja~n~na developed in vipassana can know exactly what visible object is. It cannot be known by concentration. > Howard, you may not be satisfied, you want an exact formulation. You > are a mathematicus, thus, it is understandable that you are inclined > to this. It has advantages and disadvantages. There are many things > you formulate very carefully and precisely. But we should not stay > with the definitions. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I do not think that "blanking out" is the appropriate way to pursue truth. ------- N: Quite right, no blanking out. -------- H:The bottom line, though, on this entire discussion from my perspective was my original purpose for pointing out the multicoloration of visible objects. ------- N: I think this is pointed out in the Dhammasangani (618). Agreed. -------- H: It was the same purpose as my pointing out that there is variation in a sound during its existence, and for that matter, in very rupa with its stages of arising, stasis, and decline. ------ N: These are actually submoments and the characteristic of a rupa does not change during these submoments. It is rather a matter of being weak at the arising moment, too weak to condition other dhammas. And as to naama: citta is strong at its arising moment and can condition other dhammas. ---------- > And as Azita said: v.o. cannot be known by 'me', it depends on the > development of sati sampaja~n~na. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: How did "me" get into this? Why is the spectre of atta-view being raised? -------------------------------------------- N: Very appropriate. So long as pa~n~naa has not been developed there is a subtle sense of me seeing, me being aware. It is a great gain to get this point, it is at the heart of the matter! We have to be very sincere, truthful, not misleading ourselves. --------------------------------------------- Howard: There indeed *should* be effort to know, to see, and to understand. It is inappropriate to abrogate investigation by any and all valid means. While reasoning is not the ultimate means, it is a valid means, especially when supported by energetic and careful direct examination. Should intent examination of what is arising as to it being kusala or akusala be avoided, because it is an attempt to know, to see clearly? I resist such an attitude strongly. I do *not* accept that it is a fault to attempt to see things as they actually are. I see it as a fault to do the opposite. ---------------------------------------------- N: I agree with the last sentence, but, if, if, if... See above. Reasoning, intellectual understanding is a foundation, and above all we should know that also sati sampaja~n~na is anatta, no self who can try to know or examine or have close attention. All this can so easily be done with a sense of self. So long as we are not sotapanna we have the latent tendency of wrong view. Don't you agree? > We are mixing the sense-doors and the mind-door and we take for an > experience through a sense-door what is an experience through the > mind-door. What do you think? --------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that this doesn't say enough for me to properly consider what you are after here. What I will say is that I detect a willingness to just "not look" when what will be seen is not to one's liking, and I think that such a willingness should be resisted. ------- N: I am after this: our knowledge is still coarse, imprecise. We should realize this lest we draw wrong conclusions as to visible object and seeing and all phenomena that appear right now. I do not know what you are after by your words. Not looking? Inclination to avoid? Perhaps you mean: an attitude of openmindedness. I also think of truthfulness, knowing when clinging to an idea of self arises. -------- To T.G. Lodewijk and I were guessing at your first name: Tom, Ted, Terry? T.g.: N: I am glad you find dsg useful, it can help you to find out what Abhidhamma really is. It is not a mere book. Let me share with you what I think. Is there citta now? what kind? Does it stay? What does it experience? The Abhidhamma gives us answers that we can verify now. The world could not appear if there were no citta. This is Abhidhamma, Abhidhamma is life. Also the suttas teach Abhidhamma, they teach about seeing and attachment arising on account of what is seen. Nina. #72285 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun May 20, 2007 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Death-1 jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Jon, > ... > > Thanks for your additional comments but I still don't get your point. > As you are saying, the practices described in the Vism. may be > appropriate for some monks and for some householders. Yeah…so….??? I > don't disagree with you. What is your point? > No, that's not my point. I was drawing attention to the significance of the passage at Vism Ch. III par. 27 to Ch. IV par. 20 (what I called the 'preliminary matters'). > If I, James, decide to practice Mindfulness of Death, as detailed in > the Vism., I would sit down, cross-legged, in my home, while alone, > and concentrate on the general theme of death. If I was a monk and I > wanted to practice the same Mindfulness of Death, as detailed in the > Vism., I would sit down, cross-legged, in my kuti (or under a tree or > in a cave, etc.) and concentrate on the general theme of death. > If you wished to develop samatha as detailed in the Vism then, whatever the object, you would need to consider the significance of the preliminary matters discussed at Ch. III par. 27 to Ch. IV par. 20 because that applies to all samatha objects. > What would be the difference? As a householder I would be wearing > jeans and a t-shirt and as a monk I would be wearing an orange robe > and have my head shaved. Other than the outer appearance, it would be > the same James. What is written in the Vism. applies to householders > just as much as it applies to monks. > Just to clarify, I've never said that a householder can't develop samatha. However, when it comes to the higher levels of samatha as discussed in the Vism, the household life is going to be quite an impediment, according to my reading of Vism Ch. III par. 27 to Ch. IV par. 20. Jon Vism Ch. III par. 27 to Ch. IV par. 20 sets out the matters that are preparatory to the development of samatha as discussed in the sections that follow dealing with the different kammatthaana. These matters are: a/ Severing the 10 impediments (a dwelling, family, gain, class, buildings, travel, kin, affliction, books and supernormal powers) b/ Approaching the good friend, the giver of the kammatthaana c/ Choosing a kammatthaana suitable to his own temperament d/ Choosing an appropriate monastery (having regard to the 18 possible faults of a monastery) e/ Severing the lesser impediments #72286 From: "sukinder" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 11:38 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: what must we slay to live happily? sukinderpal Hi Herman, This is a very long post; I apologize before hand if it causes any dosa. ============================ > S=> I am glad to hear that you agree. But then you also give so much > importance to jhana, why so? H: You should ask the Buddha that one. Because not one page in a random book of Suttas would go by without a mention in praise of them. Suk: The Buddha praised dana, sila and other forms of kusala as well and Jhana in this regard is second only to the 8FP. ============================= H: My thinking as to why the Buddha recommended them is, that despite their only being the present moment, the present moment is very, very long indeed, and you have entire days, weeks and years in which to live this moment. Now, one can spend this present moment seeking out food for the senses, or one can abstain. The Buddha praised such abstinence. Why? "Because it conduces to that bhikkhu's few desires, satisfaction, purity, the nature of being suppoted easily, and for arousing of effort". (MN03). Arousing of effort for what? "There friends, greed is an evil, anger is an evil. To dispel greed and anger, there is the middle path which conduces to wisdom, knowledge enlightenment and extinction. It is this same noble eightfold path such as right view, right thoughts, right speech, right actions, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration." (MN03). Suk: That of lastingness and any moral action based on this is exactly the worldling's perspective. The 8FP arises and falls in an instant. It is not a "doing" based on a perception of the future. The overall effect is that of "understanding the presently arisen reality", therefore 'abstinence' would be a matter of right understanding in the moment. Otherwise it easily becomes an object of desire and wrong view. Peoples of other religions too believe in abstaining, but based on concepts, they don't have right view and their subsequent practices don't lead to it... Even from the perspective of Jhana, fewness of wishes is based on "understanding" of the danger of sense experiences; deliberately abstaining does not make the understanding arise. In vipassana, the object being the eradication of ignorance, understanding becomes even more important and covers a larger area, including any intentions accompanying jhana cittas. Without Dhamma, one might be excused for pursuing other practices which are done with a view of the past and future, even if to 'abide' in the present :-). After hearing and acknowledging the Dhamma however, such pursuits, if one has not already accumulated the conditions for, seem to miss the point. =========================== H: To get to jhanas requires a lot of "having dealt with". Jhanas are a litmus test for whether there has been any vipassana. Suk: No. To vipassana panna, jhana is another conditioned reality to be known as such. In fact this is possible only if one's accumulated understanding of the Path is strong enough to not be drawn in so to speak, by the 'pleasant abiding', but instead to come out of it to insight its true nature of being "dukkha". ============================ > S=> See? Here you put Jhana at the top again. And I think it is distracting > to do so. After all if at the same time you acknowledge that only the N8FP > does the job, why insist that anyone who has had a deep understanding of the > danger of sense experiences, that he must necessarily opt for jhana? H: Well, what better way to be detached? If you feel that you are able to "mix it" with the world whilst remaining totally untouched by it, then you are more-or-less just doing a walking talking version of jhana. Go for it! Suk: I think that you might need to reconsider your understanding of what Jhana is and how it is developed. Also while we look to be detached from sense experiences, we might loose sight of the goal of Dhamma, namely detachment from "all conditioned realities" and not just sense objects. ============================== > On the other hand, not having the level of understanding does not imply that > one in fact believes that "everything is fine". The Middle Way can be viewed > conventionally as not trying to suppress or otherwise indulge, but > 'developing understanding' gradually and naturally, in accordance with one's > accumulations. H: Well, let's face it. We have naturally accumulated a desire for desire. What makes you think you are naturally going to de-accumulate this by continuing to do what has led us thusfar? Suk: Yes, and this covers any *ideas* that we may have about what needs to be done, all the more reason not to jump at "doings". Natural development can be seen as an instance of not trying to cross the flood by pushing forward or else staying in place. Do you not see a difference after hearing the Dhamma from before? Does not reading / considering the Dhamma each time, have an 'effect' without any need to 'do' anything more? The cumulative effect is there surely, so why not let this go on 'naturally' instead of trying to 'push forward'? I am sure you don't wish to be swept away...:-) ========================== > S=> I think you are being rather idealistic here. There are many degrees of > understanding, and insight too like anything else, is a momentary phenomena. > Likewise, if there is a sense of urgency, this should not be viewed as > anything more than a momentary arising and falling. Besides that one decides > to renounce / become ordained, this is not dependent only on insight and any > deep sense of urgency, but on accumulations for leading such a life as well. > Also remember, that there were many householders who were enlightened. H: I am happy for you to believe what you will. And you certainly don't have to justify anything you do or don't do to me. But when it comes down to what in says in the Suttas, there is nothing that suggests that the N8FP is a natural just keeping on doing what you're doing kind of thing. Suk: Of course I am not trying to justify myself. I am simply expressing my understanding of how these things work. It is all about conditioned realities and having an understanding firm enough that this is so regardless of what we do outwardly. Association with the wise friend, hearing the Dhamma, appropriate attention and practice in accordance to the dhamma, do these have to be translated as "things to do" instead of being seen as conditioned dhammas? ========================== > In any case, I was talking about the 'moment of understanding', that at such > moments, there is a corresponding level of renunciation. I am not interested > in the story about "someone deciding to renounce the world after > experiencing some insight". H: You are talking from the point of view of causation, while "someone deciding to renounce" is talking from the point of view of what is experienced. People who talk in terms of causation, without a corresponding experience, are talking about the theory of experience. The N8FP is not a theory of experience. It is a path of practice, set in train by the realisation of dukkha. Suk: My expressed views are informed by experience or not, this is not important to determine. I think it is more important to find out what the Texts says and means, which would in any case require some level of understanding intellectual and/or experiential. I don't give a sh*t about a worldling's experience, he may just as well be under the influence of DMT. ;-) At least in this case, realizing the deluded state has all the chance of kicking in. "Meditation" on the other hand is a trip/trap hard to get out of. ;-) ======================== > S=> There is vipaka vatta, kilesas vatta and kamma vatta. The arahat having > eradicated the defilements, no more creates kamma, this is the cutting off > of DO. I think in talking about "actions creating future effect", you are > not referring to kamma-vipaka, but some conventional cause and effect. I > think this is a big mistake, and hence the above conclusion. H: In the previous paragraph you denounce stories of renunciation, and here we have your account of arahants and what they did. ???? Suk: :-) Not what they *did*, but what the conditions *are*. ========================== > and I don't think too much about the past or future lives. On the other > hand, not in fact "knowing" my accumulations, who knows what will happen > next! But each moment does accumulate, profitable states and unprofitable. > This I say with confidence. H: I think it is very wise of you to disown knowledge of your accumulations. I look forward to never having to read about them as excuses for what you do and fail to do :-) Suk: Sorry, but I do like to be reminded every now and then about 'accumulations'. Admittedly however, much of the time instead of referring to conditioned realities arising in the moment, I think in term of "having such and such accumulations", and this is misleading. On the other hand, knowing for example, that intense pleasure has arisen on seeing a beautiful women or that displeasure has on smelling cigarette smoke, shows that there is/was accumulations for such. This in turn can be a reminder not to underestimate the power of accumulated akusala to arise uncalled-for. ====================== > S=> Oh, there is so much attachment to everything, and sure there must be > quite a bit to 'thinking'. But at the moment of "right" thinking, i.e. with > right view, there is no attachment. There is Suttamaya panna and there is > Cintamaya panna, both of these are necessary part of the Path. H: Is that part of the theory? Suk: Yes, but informed by the level of both Suttamaya and Cintamaya panna ;-) and so far have found no cause to doubt about. ====================== > S=> The Path at the highest level is one of 'insight' and not thinking. But > even the highest insights are followed immediately by thinking. And prior to > this, yes, there must necessarily be lots and lots of thinking, for > otherwise the thinking would be akusala, including ones that are conditioned > by wrong view. H: Why is it a necessity that there must be lots of thinking? If you are going to say that the theory says so, don't bother :-) Suk: As in case of the above, it is how it seems to be in experience. As I mentioned in an earlier post, even arahats cannot choose not to think. It is part of how the cittas arise and fall in process/ citta niyama. What according to you is the significance of suppressing vitakka and viccara in jhana? Is it not in part because normally the citta *will* think? Perhaps you are referring to a particular kind of thinking, pictorial ones and involving stories? I am not sure if you are basing your conviction on any personal experience; however I think it may be good to be reminded that while we recognize one form of thinking as being the only kind, other more subtle forms may be overlooked. On the surface, the water may appear still, but deep below there may be quite a bit of movement.. =========================== > S=> Rather the realization of dukkha *is* a turning away. This turning away > is in direct proportion to the level of realization/understanding of the > dukkha. Whatever level this is now, in the past or in the future, it is what > it is. So it is quite pointless to have hope and any expectation. Do you > think it is a necessary implication that anyone who believes in future > rebirths does so with hope and longing? H: Not in one who fears death. But I imagine that a fear of death would be condition to seek an end to the cycle of life-death. And it is for this purpose that the holy life is sought out and lived, isn't it? Suk: Different people are attracted to different paths. However only one is the Right one, hence it must all come down to accumulated understanding. So it is not so much "fear of death", but rather the understanding that 'death' is Dukkha. ;-) ========================== > Are we getting somewhere? :-) H: I'm sure of it. You are helping me clarify the muddle in my head. For which I thank you :-) Suk: Yes, and I learn quite a bit from you. I skip reading several posts here, but yours, almost never. ;-) Metta, Sukinder #72287 From: "Phil" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 5:24 am Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? philofillet Hi Kenn > > It is hard to make this clear, but I will repeat for the millionth > time that jhana meditation is, in my opinion, *not formal > meditation.* Originally, the practice of sitting straight-backed in a > quiet place was followed only after kusala consciousness had been > developed to an extraordinary degree. The practitioners were > already "established in morality and moderation.." Their next step > was to develop intense concentration in order to enter a state of > jhana absorption. Oh ok. I think we may be closer to agreement than I thought. With possible apologies to Howard and James and anyone else who seeks jhanas, I don't think it's possible unless one is "established in morality and moderation" as you say. > Today, there is a farcical parody of this practice, in which people > who are by no means established in either morality or moderation > nonetheless head off for a quiet retreat where they convince > themselves they are practising jhana. That is what I mean by "formal > meditation." The other, genuine, meditation is not formal (forced) at > all; it is a natural progression in the of development kusala > consciousness. Well, I tend to agree with you about the whole retreat thing as well, though I can't say since I haven't been on one. Feels like there would be too many forced expectations. On the other hand, no one will be able to make me believe that a daily period or two of what is called "vipassana meditation" in which one observes what the mind is up to from very close quarters is not hugely helpful for taking one's first steps towards liberation. Anyways, perhaps I understand you better now. I will leave the bit about drugs. My main point was to deny that all forms of meditation are about sensory deprivation. Au contraire - the one I practice is about sensory observation. Metta, Phil #72288 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? upasaka_howard Hi, Phil - In a message dated 5/20/07 2:23:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: > Correction to my correction of Ken above. I mean that it may be true > that jhanas rely on sensory deprivation (I don't know) but the part > about meditation being the same as taking drugs is just plain (ahem, > let me practice my new non-harmfulness) stuuuuuuupendously doubtful! ======================== Here is why I doubt it: While I commonly enter during meditation a state of calm, peace, clarity, and stability, and often one in which no effort at mental application is further required, and these *might* be first and second jhanas, I had one experience that was, to me, unquestionably jhanic. Leigh Brasington, after hearing my description, thought I was likely shuttling between second and fifth jhana. Whatever this was, it involved gloriously lit infinite space and unimagimaginable bliss. Now, in years past, because of a long history of passing many good-size kidney stones, I've had plenty of experience in hospitals with injected morphine and injected demerol. The bliss of this "shuttling" jhana so far surpassed these drugs as to make them seem like absolutely nothing. If that bliss came about by virtue (or vice ;-) of the body being infused with bodily-created analogs to those drugs (along with hallucinogens to account for the "infinite space and light show"), then they must have been the most short-acting chemicals of that sort, for the moment I emerged from the meditation, it was *all* gone - no bliss (at all), no light (at all), no infinite space (at all), not anything at all special - just "business as usual". It is that immediate cessation that makes me doubt the chemical connection. (As to whether endorphins were involved, well, yeah, I suppose that's possible. I don't know how fast they subside.) With metta, Howard #72289 From: "Phil" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts to Siila Corner (1) to Phil philofillet Hi Jon > I personally find that a lot of reflecting goes on during the day as a > result of my involvement in the discussions here. Much of the time I'm > not even aware there is reflecting going on. It's quite spontaneous, > unforced, undirected even. But definitely about dhammas and the > Dhamma. I'm sure you've found the same thing. Yes, I have, very true. It is much better for me to be involved with this group. It doesn't seem to obsess me like it used to, but it helps to reinforce my confidence in the Buddha. > > I think this is an instance of useful reflection on the teachings being > conditioned by association with good friends in the Dhamma. I don't know about the good friends. I think it is about the Buddha's message being transferred through people who participate here. I know "good friends" are highly praised by the Buddha, but a single passage of a sutta is much more valuable to me than anything anyone here could say. Well, that's an exaggeration. But people like Han who refer to simple, straight-forward suttas with confidence are my best Dhamma friends these days. The people who keep it as simple as possible. > > I would be inclined to see specific reflections when eating meals, going > to the bathroom as being in a different category altogether. I believe > these are less likely to be kusala than the spontaneous kind. > I'm not sure about this. Anything that brings the mind away from its racing to reflection on the teachings is good. If a habit is developed by which one reflects on the teachings every time one drains his snake, for example, it would be a good thing. I do very often - the habit is developing. And as you say, discussing it here will help reinforece the habit. After reading your post this morning, I reflected on the Buddha's teaching several times while draining my snake. I might ahve anyways, but I think the habit was reinforced. Thanks! Needless to say, I am not concerned about whether clinging to self is involved in these urinary Dhamma moments. If there is wrong view of the sublte, deeply rooted kind involved in ridding myself of Wrong View of the Dangerous Kind that Leads to Evil Deeds, that is fine for me. Metta, Phil #72290 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 5/20/07 3:58:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > It is hard to make this clear, but I will repeat for the millionth > time that jhana meditation is, in my opinion, *not formal > meditation.* Originally, the practice of sitting straight-backed in a > quiet place was followed only after kusala consciousness had been > developed to an extraordinary degree. The practitioners were > already "established in morality and moderation.." Their next step > was to develop intense concentration in order to enter a state of > jhana absorption. > > Today, there is a farcical parody of this practice, in which people > who are by no means established in either morality or moderation > nonetheless head off for a quiet retreat where they convince > themselves they are practising jhana. That is what I mean by "formal > meditation." The other, genuine, meditation is not formal (forced) at > all; it is a natural progression in the of development kusala > consciousness. > ============================ Are you claiming to have developed the iddhi of mind-reading, Ken? ;-) How many jhana practitioners do you know, and how well, that you can evaluate their moral caliber? With metta, Howard #72291 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 5:55 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154. Intro: as we have seen, there are four ways of generation (yoni): beings may be eggborn, born by way of the womb, born by way of moisture and by way of spontaneous birth. If one is born in hell or as a deva, there is only spontaneous rebirth. The 'earth devas' are excepted. These are the lowest class of devas and among them all four kinds of generations are found. There is a distinction to be made among ghosts: ghosts consumed with thirst, petas that are nijjhaamata.nhika, are mentioned in this text, but there are other kinds of petas. In 'Milinda's Questions' (Dilemmma eight, division 4) ghosts are classified as four: those who feed on what has been vomited up, vantaasikaa; those who are tormented by hunger and thirst, khuppipaasa; those who are consumed by craving, nijjhaamata.nhika; those living on gifts to others, paradatt'upajiivino. The fourth kind of petas profit from 'transference of merit', dedication of kusala, when gifts have been made to others in the human plane. As to ghosts consumed with thirst, they only have spontaneous rebirth and the Tiika explains the reasons. Among the other three kinds of ghosts, there are all four kinds of generation. ---------- Text Vis. 153: Herein, how the different kinds of generation come about may be understood according to the kind of destiny. For as regards these: No first three generations are in hell, or with the deities, save those of earth; all four are found in the three other destinies. Text Vis. 154. Herein, by the words 'with deities' it should be understood that, as in hell and among deities--excepting earth deities--so also among the ghosts consumed with thirst, the first three kinds of generation are not found; for they are apparitional only. But in the remaining three kinds of destiny, in other words, among animals, ghosts and human beings, and among earth deities excepted above, there are all four kinds of generations. ****** N: The Tiika explains that the earth deities, the lowest class of deities, have all four kinds of generation, and this is because of their similarity to the humans. As regards the ghosts consumed with thirst, these have only spontaneous birth. The Tiika explains that they are constantly afflicted (niccaatura), their bodies are heated by fire (aggijaalaaya santappamaanasariira). They are in this situation from the moment of birth on and thus, they could not be born in a location where there is fluidity (alla.t.thaanesu). They can only have spontaneous rebirth, not birth by way of moisture, egg or womb. Akusala kamma produced such kind of rebirth. --------- Conclusion: We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 160): < Those who are far (paka.t.thena) removed (ita) or gone from happiness are 'hungry ghosts' (peta); the abode of the different kinds of hungry ghosts, such as the 'Consumed by Craving' (nijjhaama ta.nhika), etc., is the hungry ghosts' abode. But here, the animal place of birth and the abode of hungry ghosts are simply taking hold of aggregates, since there is no separate region for these [beings]; or else as they basically dwell in forests and at the foot of mountains, etc., the region they occupy should be understood in terms of these sorts of place.> Thus, we do not have to think of a separate region where they are born. They are born with a pa.tisandhicitta that is santiira.nacitta which is akusala vipaakacitta. Since the akusala kamma that produced this is of many degrees, the result also has many degrees. We are reminded by these passages how sorrowful birth as a ghost is. It is 'far removed from happiness'. They are not in a situation that is favorable for hearing the Dhamma. So long as we are in the cycle of birth and death we run the risk of an unhappy rebirth, such as birth as a hungry ghost when one is constantly afflicted. Only some kinds of ghosts can profit from the transference of merit of good deeds performed by humans. We should not neglect this kind of daana and use the opportunity to dedicate our kusala to those who can appreciate it. We should use every opportunity for daana, siila and bhaavanaa which will produce birth in a happy plane where we can hear the Dhamma and develop the understanding leading eventually to the end of the cycle. ********** Nina. #72292 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/20/07 3:59:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > ---------- > H: The past is gone. As for now, what if sati rarely arises and pa~n~na > even more rarely. There are truly evil people in this world almost > totally > overcome by defilements, with akusala states overwhelming kusala > states. Those > akusala states will lead to future akusala states and negative > "accumulations" > far outweighing positive. Is their eventual awakening therefore > hopeless? The > conditions are as they are. Can there then be no positive change for > them? If > yes, WHY and HOW? It is not enough to say that it is a matter of > conditions. How > is there to be a CHANGE in conditions? A change for the better? (You > know my > answer: Intentional practice as the Buddha taught. What is your > answer, Nina?) > ---------------------------------------- > N: Even what you call intentional practice is dependent on > conditions, it does not fall out of the blue sky, don't you think so? > We cannot know someopne else's accumulations of kusala and akusala > in the past. Only a Buddha can know someone else's dispositions. > A positive change: possible if there are also accumulations of > kusala, and if he meets the right friend in Dhamma, listens and > considers the dhamma and applies it. -------------------------------------------- Howard: It is a truism that events come to pass only on the basis of conditions and not randomly. Evidently the conditions for intentional practice are in place for me and a number of other folks I know. We've heard and studied the Dhamma, met wonderful teachers, and started upon intentional practice that has already been very helpful. It seems to me that the conditions are certainly in place for you to proceed unless there are views that nothing can be done intentionally holding you back. -------------------------------------------- > -------- > > If there can be right mindfulness of a > > >näma or rupa which appears now this moment has been ‘formed up’ by > >many moments of studying, considering and mindfulness in the past. > > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > What if there cannot be right mindfulness now? And will someone beset > by defilement, overwhelmed by defilement, and only getting worse > engage in > study, considering, and mindfulness? > ------ > N: See above. > ---------- > H: There was a man of compromised intelligence who was unable to study, > consider, and be mindful. He was impaired. The Buddha, whom the man > of low > intelligence had heard was a buddha (surely like a god(!)), handed > the man a clean > rag, and told him that some magic could come about if the man would > just rub > that rag again and again and again, and the simple man listened to > the Great > Man and willfully and eagerly did as he said, and he grew calm, and > collected, > and at peace, and clarity and attention became heightened, and wisdom > arose, > and he reached the first stage of awakening! Conditions can be > brought about > now! But it requires that action be taken. > ------ > N: Yes, mentioned in the Vis. He met the Buddha in person and the > Buddha knew his disposition. > This passage is sometimes used to erroneously show that study is not > necessary. > The right conditions for this or that person are different. The > Buddha knew, he was omniscient. > It is off the mark to think that for us today study is not necessary. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: You are inferring things not given. -------------------------------------------------- > > You say that action should be taken, intentional practice. It depends > on what kind of action or practice. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I recommend the practice urged by the Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------- > I have a question. Some people say that Kh Sujin is not Theravada > since she does not encourage what is called formal meditation. Has > the Buddha ever said that everybody has to develop tranquillity, that > it is not possible to become enlightened by vipassana alone? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: The distinction the Buddha seems to have made is between those who attained only the 1st 4 jhanas, and those who attained formless jhanas also. ------------------------------------------------------ > You find sitting meditation helpful but do you go so far as to say > that it is an indispensable condition for enlightenment? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I say that the prejudice against meditation is contrary to the Buddhadhamma, and that right effort, right mindfulness, and right collectedness constitute meditation - three out of eight. I make no further claims. ------------------------------------------------------- > I find no corroboration for this in the Tipitaka. People are of > different dispositions. Ven. Bodhi also does not say that this is > necessary, at least for attaining the state of sotaapanna and > sakadagaamii. > Nina. > ========================= With metta, Howard #72293 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanent versus inconstant. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/20/07 5:05:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > So long as we are not sotapanna > we have the latent tendency of wrong view. Don't you agree? > ====================== Yes. :-) With metta, Howard #72294 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 4:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] please help - anger and aversion pannabahulo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Ven. Pannabahulo, > > Welcome to the group. We actually have a lot in common: same age, same > sex, not married, and no hair on top of the head. But I live in Boulder > Colorado, US. As for anger I certainly know what you mean. It has been > my experience that nothing actually works. You just have to live with > it. However, we can learn, little by little, and things change because > of that. > > The Buddha advised that we ask ourselves, "why be angry". There's no > good reason. The basic insight is simply to recognize anger. In that > moment it is seen as not me (anatta). In general, the better you > understand anatta the calmer you will become. Plus getting older kind of > wears you out. > > Having a Buddhist name is like a window into your mind so anyone can > look inside. Would you tell us what "Pannabahulo" means? > > Larry > Hi there Larry,thanks a lot for your letter.The anger problem seemed to start when I was in my twenties. Before that it was just hurt that I carried inside. I have tried a few different Vipassana techniques;what they have done is drawn my attention to the anger.Previously I always felt self-justified when I was angry;always blaming external causes. Vipassana meditation has helped me to see that it is solely my problem. Unfortunately that hs not been enough to eradicate it;but the anger is not as strong as beforeand doesn't last as long.Often the anger just arises without any seeming cause and immediately attaches itself to some thought or situation. Unfortunately I might get angry and say or do something I later regret.(Nowadays it's only likely to be something said). When I calm down I go to apologise to the other person. But few people accept an apology and the friendship is detroyed forever. In some ways I am saddened by the Lord Buddha's constant comdemnation of anger.The angry person is in a state of real misery; anger is not something one brings on willfully. 'Pannabahulo' is a Pali name meaning 'An abundance of wisdom'. It is obviously meant to be something I should strive to be. It is certainly not descriptive. Thank you again for your kind letter, Pannabahulo bhikkhu (Phra Alan) #72295 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 6:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] please help - anger and aversion pannabahulo Hi there Elaine, Thank you very much for your e-mail. There are many useful suggestions and i want to take them point by point. > > Elaine: Anger or any other feelings that arise must have contact "phassa" as a condition. Contact leads to feelings. Is there any particular person who makes you angry? One method that I use to avoid anger is to avoid contact with certain people. If there is someone who annoys you, try to stay far away from him/her but of course that's not always possible but whenever possible though, try to avoid contact with that person. Pannabahulo: I spend most of my time alone. I am the only Western monk in this temple and I deliberately stay away from rites, rituals and cultural things. I don't like them and I don't like crowds. But I have noticed that I can spend days alone and think I am calm if not a little depressed. It is only when I go out amongst what I don't like that I know that the anger is there.The person I don't like is a reminder that I have anger to deal with. And I think I am better off for recognising the problem than not really knowing it is there. > Elaine: Whenever anger arises, observe the feelings/sensations that it creates. Whenever anger arises, first thing I notice is the feeling of a burning sensation on my chest, then the heat travels to the ears and face, breathing gets heavy and sometimes I get sweaty palms. If I'm really really angry, my body will tremble. Instead of getting caught up in the anger, be aware of how anger affects the bodily sensations. When I observe anger this way, it subsides faster. Pannabahulo: That's preceisely the entry point I'm looking for.The anger flares up so quickly I'm caught in it before I can do anything. How do I develop that breathing space to catch the anger at the moment it arises and then be able to switch to sensation? > Elaine:It is easier to handle the angry feeling when you watch it at its beginning stage when it arises. Catch it while it is small before it becomes a full-blown anger. What are the sensations that you feel when you are angry? Pannabahulo: I find the anger has already attached itself to a thought stream before I am aware enough to stop it.Or even to be able to get that moment of reflection on what is happening. Elaine: Another method is to try reasoning with yourself by thinking of anger as a separate entity, as a momentary feeling that comes and goes and that it is not-self. All feelings are not-self. Don't think of it as "I am angry" just watch it as anger. Understanding nama-rupa will help overcome feelings/emotions. But I don't have any direct experience of the namarupa yet though. Pannabahulo: Yoniso. This is the method that is most helping me though.And we seem to be at the same place in our level of understanding. Thank you Elaine for sharing your thoughts with me. I don't feel so alone anymore. Metta, Phra alan (Pannabahulo) #72296 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. egberdina Hi Nina, On 20/05/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154. > > Intro: as we have seen, there are four ways of generation (yoni): > beings may be eggborn, born by way of the womb, born by way of > moisture and by way of spontaneous birth. > We should use every opportunity for daana, siila and bhaavanaa which > will produce birth in a happy plane where we can hear the Dhamma and > develop the understanding leading eventually to the end of the cycle. > Are you out of your mind? Is this Dhamma? Herman #72297 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/20/07 9:26:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > Hi Nina, > > On 20/05/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154. > > > >Intro: as we have seen, there are four ways of generation (yoni): > >beings may be eggborn, born by way of the womb, born by way of > >moisture and by way of spontaneous birth. > > > > >We should use every opportunity for daana, siila and bhaavanaa which > >will produce birth in a happy plane where we can hear the Dhamma and > >develop the understanding leading eventually to the end of the cycle. > > > > > Are you out of your mind? Is this Dhamma? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Herman, would this be your inimitable way of saying "I don't buy any of this," my friend?? ----------------------------------------- > > > Herman > > =================== With metta, Howard #72298 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 6:56 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Mike, Thanks for your reply regarding: 3. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome and the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma." Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako akusala~nca pajaanaati, akusalamuula~nca pajaanaati. Kusala~nca pajaanaati, kusalamuula~nca. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. M: "D'you reckon that this would fall under BB's opinion of mundane right view or supramundane right view? The final phrase suggests the latter to me ("perfect confidence" etc)." Scott: I think this refers to supramundane right view. First of all, the text is referring to the 'ariyasaavako'. 'Saavaka' is 'a hearer, disciple (never an Arahant)',(PTS PED); ['ariya']-saavaka: 'a disciple of the noble ones', (PTS PED), and 'Ariya (= Noble Ones) are those who have realized one of the 8 stages of Nobility, i.e. the 4 supra-mundane paths (magga) and the 4 supra-mundane fruitions (phala) of these paths', (Nyanatiloka). It would seem, then that the remarks regard those in whom the path has already arisen - at least to the level of sotaapanna and apparently not the arahat. Secondly, then, I'd say that this last phrase,'Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti', also supports this. 'Avecca' is 'certainly, definitely, absolutely, perfectly', (PTS PED). 'Pasaada' has the senses of '1. clearness, brightness, purity...2. joy, satisfaction, happy or good mind, virtue, faith [and] 3. repose, composure, allayment, serenity...', (PTS PED). 'Samannaagata' is 'possessed of, endowed with', (PTS PED). 'Aagata' is '[pp. of Ä?gacchati] (1) come, arrived...', (PTS PED). So, that which the Noble Disciple understands (pajaanaati) is developed (hoti) and arrives, with absolute clarity as a function of the path, therefore supramundane. I think this is what Bh. Bodhi is referring to when he notes, 'The question posed by the Ven. Saariputta concerns the sekha, the disciple in higher training, who possesses supramundane right view leading irreversibly to emancipation. This is implied by the phrase 'perfect confidence' and 'arrived at this true Dhamma'. M: "Do you think that there is a 'conventional' right view re: understanding the unwholesome, the root of unwholesome etc.? If so, do you think do you think that this conventional (intellectual) right view is a prerequisite to supramundane right view?...I'd be interested in any documentation from the Paali texts either for or against the idea." Scott: Its a good question, Mike, and I'd only be hazarding a guess. I'd say 'conventional' might tend to mislead. Do you think, in relation to right view, that it is pa~n~na that would have to arise in order to render any view 'right'? This is how I would tend to see it. This being the case, then, 'conventional' would only refer to the intellectual understanding that is 'right' but not yet to the level of the path. The support for this assertion in the above begins with the terms 'pajanati' and 'hoti', which are used, I think, to describe a process. According to the PTS PED, 'pajaanaati' is "[pa+jaanaati] to know, find out, come to know, understand, distinguish...' To me this is the 'function' of pa~n~na. 'Hoti' is (?) a synonym for 'bhavati', which is related to the root 'bhuu', meaning 'to become...to grow'. Bhuu is also a root for the related 'bhaaveti', which is '...to beget, produce, increase, cultivate, develop...', (PTS PED). I'd say that right view, prior to the arising of the path, is the development of pa~n~na. What do you think? I'll have to keep checking to get more from the texts. Sincerely, Scott. #72299 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 7:06 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 1, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 1 Root-Condition (Hetu-Paccaya) The first condition mentioned in the 'Patthåna' is root-condition, hetu-paccaya. There are three akusala hetus: lobha, attachment, dosa, aversion, and moha, ignorance, and these can have many degrees. Lobha can be a slight attachment or it can be clinging, greed or covetousness. Dosa can be a slight aversion, or it can be as intense as anger or hatred. Moha is ignorance of realities, it is ignorance of what is kusala or akusala, and ignorance of the four noble truths [1]. Moha is the root of everything which is akusala, it arises with each akusala citta. There are three sobhana (beautiful) hetus: alobha, non-attachment or generosity, adosa, non-aversion or kindness, and amoha, paññå or right understanding. The three sobhana hetus can have many degrees, they can even be lokuttara (supramundane), when they accompany lokuttara citta which experiences nibbåna. These six roots are actually cetasikas or mental factors which accompany citta. They are called root, since they are the firm foundation of the citta. Just as a tree rests on its roots and receives sap through the roots in order to grow, evenso are the akusala cittas and sobhana cittas dependent on the presence of the roots and they cannot occur in their absence. Thus, the roots are powerful conditions for the cittas which are rooted in them. When akusala citta arises it is always rooted in moha, and it may have in addition the root of lobha or of dosa. The twelve types of akusala citta are classified according to hetu: eight types are rooted in moha and lobha, and they are called lobha- múla-cittas [2], two types are rooted in moha and dosa, and they are called dosa-múla- cittas [3], two types are rooted only in moha, and they are called moha-múla- cittas [4]. All sobhana cittas have to be rooted in alobha and adosa and they may or may not be rooted in amoha or paññå as well. Of the eight types of mahå- kusala cittas (kusala cittas of the sense-sphere [5]), the eight types of mahå- vipåkacittas and the eight types or mahå-kiriyacittas (of the arahat [6]), four types out of the eight are accompanied by paññå and four types are not accompanied by paññå, thus, accompanied by two sobhana hetus [7]. ----------- footnotes: 1.The truth of dukkha,suffering, of the origin of dukkha, which is clinging, of the cessation of dukkha, which is nibbåna, and of the Path leading to the cessation of dukkha. 2.Múla also means root. Four types are accompanied by somanassa, pleasant feeling, four types by wrong view, four types are asaòkhårika, not-induced or spontaneous, four types are sasaòkhårika, induced. Altogether there are eight types. 3 One type is not-induced and one type is induced. 4. One is called accompanied by restlessness, uddhacca, and one is accompanied by doubt, vicikicchå. 5 Mahå means great. 6..The arahat does not have akusala cittas nor kusala cittas, he does not perform kamma which produces result.When he has sobhana cittas, cittas accompanied by beautiful qualities, they are inoperative, mahå- kiriyacittas which do not produce result. 7. Of the eight types, four types are associated with paññå, four are without paññå, four types are accompanied by somanassa, pleasant feeling, four types are accompanied by upekkhå, indifferent feeling. Four types are asaòkhårika, not induced, four types are sasaòkhårika, induced. ****** NIna. #72300 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 7:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Howard and Herman, yes, but I understand the Herman language, it is O.K. for me. I just want to know what is so difficult for him. Each person has his own way of expressing, who minds? But today I may not have time. Nina. Op 20-mei-2007, om 15:53 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Herman, would this be your inimitable way of saying "I don't buy > any of > this," my friend?? #72301 From: connie Date: Sun May 20, 2007 7:11 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) nichiconn dear friends, part 14 of 17: "Gotamii-aadikaa taayo, tadaa bhikkhuniyo jina.m; vanditvaa aasanaa tamhaa, vu.t.thaaya aagami.msu taa. "Mahataa janakaayena, saha lokagganaayako; anusa.myaayii so viiro, maatuccha.m yaavako.t.thaka.m. "Tadaa nipati paadesu, gotamii lokabandhuno; saheva taahi sabbaahi, pacchima.m paadavandana.m. "Ida.m pacchimaka.m mayha.m, lokanaathassa dassana.m; na puno amataakaara.m, passissaami mukha.m tava. "Na ca me vandana.m viira, tava paade sukomale; samphusissati lokagga, ajja gacchaami nibbuti.m. Then Gotamii and the other bhikkhuniis paid homage to the Conqueror, and they arose from their seats and returned [to their monastery]. Together with a great group of people, the Supreme Leader of the World, the Hero, accompanied his aunt as far as the gateway [of the city]. There, Gotamii fell down at the feet of the Kinsman of the World together with all the elders. This was the last veneration at [his] feet. "This is our last glimpse of the Protector of the World," [they said.] "We shall not see your face that looks like ambrosia again." "My veneration, O Hero, will not touch your feet that are so soft, O Chief of the World." [Gotamii said.] "Today I go to [final] peace. "Ruupena ki.m tavaanena, di.t.the dhamme yathaatathe; sabba.m sa"nkhatameveta.m, anassaasikamittara.m. "Saa saha taahi gantvaana, bhikkhunupassaya.m saka.m; a.d.dhapalla"nkamaabhujja, nisiidi paramaasane. "Tadaa upaasikaa tattha, buddhasaasanavacchalaa; tassaa pavatti.m sutvaana, upesu.m paadavandikaa. "Karehi ura.m pahantaa, chinnamuulaa yathaa lataa; rodantaa karu.na.m rava.m, soka.t.taa bhuumipaatitaa. "Maa no sara.nade naathe, vihaaya gami nibbuti.m; nipatitvaana yaacaama, sabbaayo sirasaa maya.m. "What is material form to you, having seen phenomena as they are? All of this is conditioned, comfortless, transitory." She went to together with them to their own bhikkhunii monastery and she sat in the best seat, bending [one leg] in a half cross-legged postion. Then the women lay followers there, those attached to the teachings of the Buddha, hearing her news, approached to pay homage at her feet. Beating themselves on the breast with their hands, afflicted by grief they fell to the ground like vines with their roots cut off, lamenting piteously with a loud sound. "O protector who gives us refuge, do not abandon us and go to [final] peace!" [they cried.] "We all fall down head first and entreat you." "Yaa padhaanatamaa taasa.m, saddhaa pa~n~naa upaasikaa; tassaa siisa.m pamajjantii, ida.m vacanamabravi. "Ala.m puttaa visaadena, maarapaasaanuvattinaa; anicca.m sa"nkhata.m sabba.m, viyoganta.m calaacala.m. "Tato saa taa visajjitvaa, pa.thama.m jhaanamuttama.m; dutiya~nca tatiya~nca, samaapajji catutthaka.m. "Aakaasaayatana~nceva, vi~n~naa.naayatana.m tathaa; aaki~nca.m nevasa~n~na~nca, samaapajji yathaakkama.m. "Pa.tilomena jhaanaani, samaapajjittha gotamii; yaavataa pa.thama.m jhaana.m, tato yaavacatutthaka.m. The most zealous woman lay follower among them who had faith and wisdom, stroking her head, made this speech: "Enough of your dejection, my children. That is giving in to the snares of Maara. Everything is impermanent, conditioned, ends in separation, and is unstable." Then she sent them away. And she entered the excellent first absorption state, and the second, third, and fourth [ones]. And then she entered one after the other: the sphere of [infinite] space, the sphere of [infinite] consciousness, [the sphere of] nothingness, [the sphere of] neither perception [nor non-perception]. Then Gotamii entered the absorption states in reverse order down to the first and [back] up to the fourth. ===tbc, connie. #72302 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 6:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Herman, Thanks for writing to me. But I do not understand what you are referring to. Do you find something strange here? Nina Op 20-mei-2007, om 15:24 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Are you out of your mind? Is this Dhamma? #72303 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 7:04 am Subject: Perfections N, no 29 nilovg Dear friends, If we understand, at least in theory, that right understanding is sankharakkhandha, formed up by many factors, and that it forms up later moments of understanding, it will help us to see that panna grows very gradually in the course of many lives. It will prevent us from clinging to an idea that we can direct the growth of parina, that we have to do something special in order to hasten its development. If we remember that pannA is sar~kharakkhandha, the khandha of formations, we will be more pa-tient while we study with mindfulness the realities which ap-pear. The beginning has to be the beginning, the beginning cannot be the advanced stage of panna. Nama has to be realized as nãma, and rupa as rupa, their different characteristics have to be directly known when they appear one at a time. This is the beginning stage of insight know-ledge which has to be realized before the following stages of insight. Paññã grows stage by stage. Hearing is different from sound. When sound appears it is evident that there must also be hearing. Sound and hearing have each different characteristics and these can, one at a time, be objects of mindfulness. Sound does not experience anything, it has no intention to be object of hearing. Hearing is an experience, it is a kind of knowing, and its characteristic can be realized if there is mindfulness of it when it appears. While we are thinking about hearing, the characteristic of hearing cannot be known, since the reality at that moment is thinking. We need patience to develop understand-ing of the different characteristics of realities. In order to discern the different characteristics of realities we need right thinking, vitakka, a factor of the eightfold Path accompanying right mindfulness and right understanding. Vitakka is different from what we in conventional language denote by 'thinking". The function of vitakka of the eightfold Path, samma-sankappa or right thinking, is 'touching' the nama or rupa which appears so that right understanding can know it as it is. When nama is the object of mindfulness, vitakka "touches" that object, so that there can be right understanding of it as only a nãma, not self. When rupa is the object of mindfulness, vitakka "touches' that object, so that right understanding can know it as it is. There are objects impinging on the six doors time and again but most of the time there is forgetfulness of realities. Sometimes there is mindfulness of the reality which appears and then we may notice that such moments are different from our usual forgetfulness. Although there is not yet clear understanding of realities, there can be a beginning of noticing or "studying' with awareness different namas and rupas which appear. Are we patient enough to study with awareness all the details of our daily life? We may not like it to be aware of unpleasant feeling, or we may not find it interesting enough to know seeing which appears now or hearing which appears now. If there is patience there can be careful consideration of the Dhamma and there can be a beginning of understanding of the present reality. The only way to have less ignorance is mindfulness of the reality which appears now, even if that is ignorance or unawareness. Courage, perseverance and patience are indispensable for the development of right understanding. ******* Nina. #72304 From: "sukinder" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 2:56 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? sukinderpal Hi Herman (and Ken H), This is just to say that I hadn't read this post of yours or Ken's original when I sent my post # 72286 to you. That response would have been quite different had I done so. :-) Metta, Sukinder ========================= > from another current thread, formal meditation is the same as drug > taking. Instead of drugs it relies on sensory deprivation, but (when > meditation occasionally works) the chemical reactions in the brain > are similar. While I agree 100% with what you say here, what you say here also applies to any other activity I can think of. Not necessarily the sensory deprivation thing, but certainly that all action is geared towards bringing about a change. And that change is a change of mind or brain, however anyone wants to portray it. Whether it is reading, walking, shopping, surfing, meditating etc when these are seen as activities that are put in motion by "me", they may as well be the taking of drugs, all with the intent of changing "me". #72305 From: "matheesha" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 9:03 am Subject: all that is caused by previous action matheesha333 21. Sivaka Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said: "There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?" "Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma - (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. "Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither- pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans." When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!... May the revered Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as long as life lasts." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel303.html#t -15 #72306 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 6:41 am Subject: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Nina, Sarah, Jon, Howard, Herman, James, Larry and the Rest... Something hit me like a bolt of lightning last night. It occurred to me that when the Abhidhammikas talk about Dhammas "arising and immediately falling away," that it is an inference based on time. I.E., "the present moment" arises and immediately falls away. Therefore, all that constitutes the present moment must also arise and immediately fall way...from this vantage point. This outlook would explain a number of things. First of all, it explains a lack of being comfortable of including the Suttas description of "changing while persisting" as part of the arising and ceasing description. "The present" could not change while persist." It would support the idea of "ultimately real" dhammas. For only the present is "ultimate real"...from this vantage point. It supports the intense focus on "mindfulness of the present moment" as the "heart" of their practice. However, I'm dubious of this conclusion because it would be a relatively easy thing to explain and I don't recall getting this explanation from Nina or Sarah during our many conversations on the subject. It also has it own problems...such as -- how can there be 17 progressive present moments of consciousness for one present moment of rupa? Also, how can the ceasing of a state be a condition for the arising of following state? (In reference to Abhidhammikas view of consciousness.) This latter idea is in direct conflict with the Buddha formula of D.O. -- This being, that is; with the arising of this, that arises; this not being, this is not; with the ceasing of this, that ceases. There are other problems as well. Anyway, if this hypothesis is right, it would mean that the Abhidhammikas have mixed the D.O. principles of the Suttas with the time oriented teachings: past, present, future, of the Suttas. There is certainly a certain logic in it. But, the former (D.O.principles) is designed to explain the structure and mechanics of phenomena, the later (past, present, future) is designed to express a sense of impermanence and the futility of attachment to the present. The problem with it though is ... it falls short of a comprehensive view and account of the D.O. principles/mechanics of phenomena. Then again, maybe this isn't at all correct understanding of the Abhidhammika position. Comments? TG #72307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 11:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? nilovg Hi Herman, how true. It is study, but not theoretical study. Study of what appears now through one of the six doors. Nina. Op 20-mei-2007, om 3:45 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > When > there is mindfulness, there is studying the Dhamma. #72308 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] all that is caused by previous action nilovg Dear Matheesha, Thank you for reminding us of this sutta. I posted before the Commentary and subcommentary and it can be found in dsg archives. These explain many points of this sutta. Maybe you can google the sutta. Sarah is always so clever to find the right links, I do not know how she does it. Nina. Op 20-mei-2007, om 18:03 heeft matheesha het volgende geschreven: > Sivaka > Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove > Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering > ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after > an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. #72309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 11:40 am Subject: daana corner nilovg Dear Han and Herman, Herman shook me up a bit by his remark about transfer of merit to ghosts. We have talked here in the daana corner about King Bimbisara who forgot this, see Sutta without the walls. The ghosts cired out and later on the King remembered to do this. They were his relatives who had passed away. In India each day we all recite words to transfere merit to all who have passed away. I am reminded then. It is a way of daana. It is good we can do something for those who have passed away and who can appreciate this dedication. But here back home I forget. That is why I was glad Herman reminded me in his own personal way, in his own style. Han, what do you do, what is the custom in Birma and do you perform this way of dana? Nina. #72310 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] please help - anger and aversion nilovg Venerable Bhikkhu Pannabulo. Yes, Yonoso manaasikaara helps, it is the proximate cause for kusala. But only the anaagaami has eradicated anger. First wrong view has to be eradicated. We still believe, deep in our minds, that it is 'my anger'. Therefore, I think it helps most to get to know all kinds of phenomena that appear. One of the conditions for anger is attachment: people and things are not the way we expect them to be and that is attachment. Attachment, anger, all phenomena are conditioned, we cannot prevent them at will. They can be suppressed for a certain time, but they will arise again and again. They can be objects of mindfulhness so that we learn that they are conditioned dhammas. That helps not to attach too much importance to them. We shall have less aversion towards our anger. That would make it only worse. Respectfully, Nina. Op 20-mei-2007, om 15:10 heeft pannabahulo het volgende geschreven: > Pannabahulo: Yoniso. This is the method that is most helping me > though. #72311 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun May 20, 2007 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] discussion and a question, nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your answer I send through to Lodewijk. He appreciates your post very much. You raised many points in different mails and I shall react as I find time. Nina. Op 19-mei-2007, om 21:18 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I have no problem with the 'only' #72313 From: "m_nease" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 1:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Death-1 m_nease Hi Jon, Thanks for this: ----- Original Message ----- From: Jonothan Abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 2:15 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Death-1 > Vism Ch. III par. 27 to Ch. IV par. 20 sets out the matters that are > preparatory to the development of samatha as discussed in the sections > that follow dealing with the different kammatthaana. > These matters are: > a/ Severing the 10 impediments (a dwelling, family, gain, class, > buildings, travel, kin, affliction, books and supernormal powers) > b/ Approaching the good friend, the giver of the kammatthaana > c/ Choosing a kammatthaana suitable to his own temperament > d/ Choosing an appropriate monastery (having regard to the 18 possible > faults of a monastery) > e/ Severing the lesser impediments I thought it might also be worth (re-)posting this: The 18 faults of a monastery are: "Herein, one that is unfavourable has any one of eighteen faults. These are largeness, newness, dilapidatedness, a nearby road, a pond, (edible leaves), flowers, fruits, famousness, a nearby city, nearby timber trees, nearby arable fields, presence of incompatible persons, a nearby port of entry, nearness to the border countries, nearness to the frontier of a kingdom, unsuitability, lack of good friends. One with any of these faults is not favourable. He should not live there. Why? 1. Firstly people with varying aims collect in a large monastery. They conflict with each other and so neglect the duties. The Enlightenment-tree terrace, etc., remain unswept, the water for drinking and washing is not set out. So if he thinks 'I shall go to the alms-resort village for alms' and takes his bowl and robe and sets out, perhaps he sees that the duties have not been done or that a drinking-water pot is empty, and so the duty has to be done by him unexpectedly. Drinking water must be maintained. By not doing it he would commit a wrongdoing in the breach of a duty. But if he does it, he loses time. He arrives too late at the village and gets nothing because the almsgiving is finished. Also when he goes into retreat, he is distracted by the loud noises of novices and young bhikkhus, and by acts of the Community (being carried out). However, he can live in a large monastery where all the duties are done and where there are none of the other disturbances. 2. In a new monastery there is much new building activity. People criticize someone who takes no part in it. But he can live in such a monastery where the bhikkhus say 'Let the venerable one do the ascetic's duties as much as he likes. We shall see to the building work'. 3. In a dilapidated monastery there is much that needs repair. People criticize someone who does not see about the repairing of at least his own lodging. When he sees to the repairs, his meditation subject suffers. 4. In a monastery with a nearby road, by a main street, visitors keep arriving night and day. He has to give up his own lodging to those who come late, and he has to go and live at the root of a tree or on top of a rock. And next day it is the same. So there is no opportunity (to practice) his meditation subject. But he can live in one where there is no such disturbance by visitors. 5. A pond is a rock pool . Numbers of people come there for drinking water. Pupils of city-dwelling elders supported by the royal family come to do dyeing work. When they ask for vessels, wood, tubs, etc., (120) they must be shown where these things are. So he is kept all the time on the alert. 6. If he goes with his meditation subject to sit by day where there are many sorts of edible leaves, then women vegetable-gatherers, singing as they pick leaves nearby, endanger his meditation subject by disturbing it with sounds of the opposite sex. 7. An where there are many sorts of flowering shrubs in bloom there is the same danger too. 8. Where there are many sorts of fruits such as mangoes, rose-apples and jack-fruits people who want fruits come and ask for them, and they get angry if he does not give them any, or they take them by force. When walking in the monastery in the evening he sees them and asks "Why do you do so, lay followers?", they abuse him as they please and even try to evict him. 9. When he lives in a monastery that is famous and renowned in the world, like Dakkhimagire, (1) Hatthikucchi, Cetiyagiri or Cittalapabbata, there are always people coming who want to pay homage to him, supposing that he is an Arahant, which inconveniences him. But if it suits him, he can live there at night and go elsewhere by day. 10. In one with a nearby city objects of the opposite sex come into focus. Women water-pot carriers go by bumping into him with their jars and giving no room to pass. Also important people spread out carpets in the middle of the monastery and sit down. 11. One with nearby timber trees where there are timber trees and osiers useful for making framework is inconvenient because of the wood-gatherers there, like the gatherers of branches and fruits already mentioned. If there are trees in a monastery, people come and cut them down to build houses with. When he has come out of his meditation room in the evening and is walking up and down in the monastery, if he sees them and asks "Why do you do so, lay followers?", they abuse him as they please and even try to evict him. 12. People make use of one with nearby arable fields, quite surrounded by fields. They make a threshing floor in the middle of the monastery itself. They thresh corn there, dry it in the forecourts, (2) and cause great inconvenience. And where there is extensive property belonging to the Community, the monastery attendants impound cattle belonging to families and deny the water supply (to their crops). (121) Then people bring an ear of paddy and show it to the Community saying "Look at your monastery attendants work". For one reason or another he has to go to the portals of the king or the king's ministers. This (matter of property belonging to the Community) is included by (a monastery that is) near arable fields. 13. Presence of incompatible persons: where there are bhikkhus living who are incompatible and mutually hostile, when they clash and it is protested "Venerable sirs, do not do so" they exclaim "We no longer count now that this refuse-rag wearer has come". 14. One with a nearby water port of entry or land port of entry (3) is made inconvenient by people constantly arriving respectively by ship or by caravan and crowding round, asking for space or drinking water or salt. 15. In the case of one near the border countries, people have no trust in the Buddha, etc., there. 16. In one near the frontier of a kingdom there is fear of kings. For perhaps one king attacks that place, thinking "It does not submit to my rule", and the other does likewise,thinking "It does not submit to my rule". A bhikkhu lives there when it is conquered by one king and when it is conquered by the other. Then they suspect him of spying, and they bring about his undoing. 17. Unsuitability is that due to the risk of encountering visible data, etc., of the opposite sex as objects or to haunting by non-human beings. Here is a story. An elder lived in a forest, it seems. Then an ogress stood in the door of his leaf hut and sang. The elder came out and stood in the door. She went to the end of the walk and sang. The elder went to the end of the walk. She stood in a chasm a hundred fathoms deep and sang. The elder recoiled. Then she suddenly grabbed him saying "Venerable sir, it is not just one or two of the likes of you I have eaten". 18. Lack of good friends: where it is not possible to find a good friend as a teacher or the equivalent of a teacher or a preceptor or the equivalent of a preceptor, the lack of good friends there is a serious fault. One that has any of these eighteen faults should be understood as unfavourable. And this is said in the commentaries: 'A Large abode, a new abode, 'One tumbling down, one near a road, 'One with a pond, or leaves or flowers, 'Or fruits, or one that people seek: (122) 'In cities, among timber, fields, 'Where people quarrel, in a port, 'In border lands, on frontiers, 'Unsuitableness, and no good friend - 'These are the eighteen instances 'A wise man needs to recognize 'And give them full as wide a berth 'As any footpad-hunted road. Bhikkhu Nanamoli, (the Path of Purification - Vissuddhi Magga) Buddhist Publication Society, Sri Lanka, 1979 - P.122 - 125 Thanks Again, mike #72314 From: han tun Date: Sun May 20, 2007 3:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner hantun1 Dear Nina and Herman, Yes we do that in Burma. On the seventh day of the death of a person, the relatives offered alms food to the monks and guests. When the monks have eaten the food, they chant together while one of the relatives pours water from a flask into a dish. At the end, all say together loudly "Amya!" three times transferring our merits to all beings, and then say "Sadhu!" three times. It is our belief that if the deceased had been reborn as some form of peta (ghost) who could hear us, and if he also says Sadhu! three times together with us, he would be released from that life and immediately reborn in some other pleasant realm. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han and Herman, > > Herman shook me up a bit by his remark about > transfer of merit to > ghosts. We have talked here in the daana corner > about King Bimbisara > who forgot this, see Sutta without the walls. The > ghosts cired out > and later on the King remembered to do this. They > were his relatives > who had passed away. > In India each day we all recite words to transfere > merit to all who > have passed away. I am reminded then. It is a way of > daana. It is > good we can do something for those who have passed > away and who can > appreciate this dedication. But here back home I > forget. That is why > I was glad Herman reminded me in his own personal > way, in his own style. > Han, what do you do, what is the custom in Birma and > do you perform > this way of dana? > Nina. > > > > #72315 From: "Phil" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 4:34 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner philofillet Hi Mike Hope you and Rose have been well. > M: "D'you reckon that this would fall under BB's opinion of mundane > right view or supramundane right view? Could I ask you to calrify why you say "BB's opinion?" The other day I posted about mundane vs. supramundane right view, and while I said "BB's commentarial posts make it clear" I really should have said the sutta makes it clear and BB's commentarial notes only confirm what can be understood from the sutta. Are there some controversial material in which BB expresses opinions about this that are contrary to what can be understood from paragraphs 6-8 of MN 117? Thanks. Metta, Phil #72316 From: "Phil" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts to Siila Corner (1) to Phil philofillet Hi again Jon and all > But people > like Han who refer to simple, straight-forward suttas with > confidence are my best Dhamma friends these days. The people who > keep it as simple as possible. I think I wrote a silly thing here. I do appreciate Dhamma friends who always challenge me to consider the deepest teachings as well. (And of course Han does that as well.) For some reason I am being a little obstinate about wanting to approach the Dhamma from a shallow angle these days. I guess that will change someday. Metta, Phil #72317 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 5:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanent versus inconstant. lbidd2 Hi Nina and all, I have a further question about visible object. Visible object always manifests (if that is the right word) inseparable from at least 7 other kinds of rupa: 4 great elements, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. But it is experienced as a separate rupa. Which is the ultimate reality, the group (kalaapa) or the singular kind of rupa? Can we analyze a tree as a kalaapa? Larry #72318 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Nina, N: "The fourth kind of petas profit from 'transference of merit', dedication of kusala, when gifts have been made to others in the human plane." L: How does this work? Must one first recognize kusala citta? Then what? What does one say or do? When merit is transfered does it go only to this kind of ghost or can it go to other beings as well? In Tibet there is the practice of leaving a small portion of a meal for a certain kind of peta as well as prayers before and after a meal. Is there this practice in Theravadin traditions? Larry #72319 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 5:37 pm Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? kenhowardau Hi Herman, -------------- <. . .> H: > I must say that I think you have written some great posts lately. You are just going to have to take my word for it, but I had some earmarked for reply, when the whole "Phil the golden wonderboy" thing happened :-). I felt that if I replied to those earmarked posts with praise, it may have seemed insincere, so I just let it go. -------------- Just when unsolicited praise was coming my way I had to open my big mouth! Now I'll always suspect you are just feeling sorry for me. ---------------------- H: > The fact remains, I find myself in the scary position of often agreeing with you. :-) ---------------------- I can't know what to believe, but thanks for saying so. :-) ----------------------------- H: > As an aside, RobA and I had a bit of a discussion recently wherein I wondered what is a good or kind deed? I am going to wonder the same thing aloud to you, is it a good or useful thing to praise someone else's posts because you agree with them? I honestly don't know. ---------------------------- It often happens that I would love to compliment someone on an outstanding post, but for one reason or another I rarely do. As to whether there is kusala intention involved in such compliments, who can tell? We do what we think is best in the circumstances, but none of us has control over the arising or non-arising of dhammas. -------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > A couple of sadhus in the general direction of the ageing surfie. -------------------------------------- Thank you. You don't know what it is like to have to pose smilingly for a photo that is going to be captioned "Old man with surfboard," or, "Surfing and the spectre of death," or, "If he can do it anyone can!" :-) -------------------------- KH: >> As we can see > from another current thread, formal meditation is the same as drug > taking. Instead of drugs it relies on sensory deprivation, but (when > meditation occasionally works) the chemical reactions in the brain > are similar. H: > While I agree 100% with what you say here, what you say here also applies to any other activity I can think of. Not necessarily the sensory deprivation thing, but certainly that all action is geared towards bringing about a change. And that change is a change of mind or brain, however anyone wants to portray it. Whether it is reading, walking, shopping, surfing, meditating etc when these are seen as activities that are put in motion by "me", they may as well be the taking of drugs, all with the intent of changing "me". ---------------- Hallelujah! :-) -------------------------- KH: >>Sometimes they will produce a sense of certainty. They > will cause Christians to know *beyond doubt* that they are in the > presence of Christ, and they will cause Buddhists to know *beyond > doubt* they are experiencing either insight or jhana. In fact, they > are experiencing a chemical malfunction. H: > Perhaps I don't agree with you as often as I thought :-) Malfunction is misleading here, it implies that things ought to be different to what they are in the situation (thanks Antony) that brought it about. Which I think you would agree is not a very sensible proposition? ----------------------------- In an effort not to be argumentative, I will let that one go through to the keeper. ---------------------- KH: >> The true Dhamma does not promise weird and wonderful sensations. H: > More of them sadhus. KH: >> It > promises a gradually increasing wisdom. H: > I don't disagree with you here, but in order to say this you have to leave your "present moment only" paradigm behind, IMO. ------------------------- These things need to happen again and again. Finding a teacher needs to happen again and again (lifetime after lifetime); more so, paying wise attention and wisely considering his words. Even the acclaimed, exemplary practice of direct right understanding (satipatthana) needs to happen again and again. However, as you rightly point out, there is only the one, present, moment. And in that moment there can be right understanding of the need for right understanding to happen again and again. --------------------- KH: >> When Nibbana is directly > experienced it will not come as a surprise. It will be experienced by > a fully developed wisdom that had slowly become more and more aware > of what to expect. From beginning to end, vipassana is a way of > understanding. > H: > How Nibbana is thought of is how Nibbana is thought of. In terms of persons, their conception of Nibbana defines that person's aspirations. It would be stupid of me, and anyone else, to argue the truth of people's definitions of themselves. ---------------------- I am not sure how to interpret that. Have you fallen off the sadhu wagon, or are you still agreeing with me? :-) Nibbana is whatever the Dhamma says it is. No personal opinion of it can be of any consequence. ------------------------ H: > May you attain Nibbana (whatever that is for you) in this very lifetime (whatever that is) ------------------------ Thanks Herman. You too! :-) Ken H #72320 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 5:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] please help - anger and aversion lbidd2 Hi Phra Alan, Thanks for your reply. This discussion prompted me to think about my own anger. One thing I can say is that intention (chanda) and action (cetana) are always different. It is good to let surprise into one's life. Larry #72321 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. egberdina Hi Nina, On 20/05/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > Hi Herman, > Thanks for writing to me. But I do not understand what you are > referring to. Do you find something strange here? > Nina What I find strange is that you, who often remind others of the conditioned nature of reality and of the Buddha's profound insight of anatta, do not find it strange to list in detail the different types of ghosts, their mode of generation, their mode of being, and the rites and rituals which will minister to their needs. It seems to me that Buddhism in daily life can be either a perpetuation of folkloric, animistic traditions, or it can be a deliverance from those views. But it can't be both. Herman #72322 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 6:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Herman, H: "It seems to me that Buddhism in daily life can be either a perpetuation of folkloric, animistic traditions, or it can be a deliverance from those views. But it can't be both." L: Actually it serves the purpose of cultivating kusala citta. It is interesting that modern culture has very few rituals that do that. Larry #72323 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 6:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. egberdina Hi Larry, On 21/05/07, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Herman, > > H: "It seems to me that Buddhism in daily life can be either a > perpetuation of folkloric, animistic traditions, or it can be a > deliverance from those views. But it can't be both." > > L: Actually it serves the purpose of cultivating kusala citta. It is > interesting that modern culture has very few rituals that do that. > Interesting. Are you saying that rites and rituals actually do have an effect ? Herman #72324 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 6:49 pm Subject: Re: Mindfulness of Death-1 buddhatrue Hi Jon, Okay, now you have made yourself a bit clearer. You are speaking of the "Ten Impediments" detailed in the Vism. Here are the Ten Impediments: Dwelling, family, gain, class, building, travel, kin, affliction, books, and supernormal powers. About these ten impediments you write: "However, when it comes to the higher levels of samatha as discussed in the Vism, the household life is going to be quite an impediment, according to my reading of Vism Ch. III par. 27 to Ch. IV par. 20." Jon, what you fail to mention is that these ten impediments are potential impediments for the bhikkhu just as much as for the householder. It all depends on the person. Let me quote some relevant passanges (which I wish you would do when referring to texts!): "This is not an impediment for everyone. It is an impediment only for anyone whose mind is exercised about the building, etc….or whose mind is caught up by some business connected with it. For any other it is not an impediment." "But even mother and father are not an impediment for another….Even mother and father are no impediment for one such as him, so how much less any other family that supports him." "From sunrise till the first watch of the night he never breaks his association with people….He should leave his group and wander by himself where he is not known. This is the way his impediment is severed." "If with the group's instruction and questioning he gets no opportunity for the ascetic's duties [meditation], then that group is an impediment for him. He should sever that impediment in this way…." "Building is new building work. Since one engaged in this must know about what [material] has and has not been got by carpenters, etc., and must see about what has and has not been done, it is always an impediment. It should be severed in this way…" etc. etc..... Jon, these are all common-sense types of things. If one is too busy or over-involved to meditate, then of course that is an impediment. If you can't find the time to do it, then it won't get done! However, for most of the members of this group these things are not impediments. The members of DSG obviously spend a lot of time studying texts and posting to this group (as there are about 25-30 posts a day), so they obviously have a lot of time on their hands. In my opinion, this time would be better spent actually practicing what the Buddha taught rather than just talking about it…but that's my opinion (and probably wouldn't win me a popularity contest ;-)). Metta, James #72325 From: "m_nease" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 7:26 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner m_nease Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: Great to hear from you--really enjoying your current (or recent) exchange with Nina. > Hope you and Rose have been well. Thanks Phil, I hope the same for you and yours. > Could I ask you to calrify why you say "BB's opinion?" The other > day I posted about mundane vs. supramundane right view, and while I > said "BB's commentarial posts make it clear" I really should have > said the sutta makes it clear and BB's commentarial notes only > confirm what can be understood from the sutta. While I have great respect (also affection) for BB, I discovered some time ago that he has sometimes published his own comments in such a way that I failed (out of my own carelessness) to distinguish between them and the ancient commentaries. > Are there some > controversial material in which BB expresses opinions about this > that are contrary to what can be understood from paragraphs 6-8 of > MN 117? What can be understood is of course always a matter of opinion (for us puthujjanaa, at least). With all due respect (which is very considerable) I don't hold BB's opinions as being in quite the same category of those (if they are opinions) expressed in the ancient commentaries. I don't feel particularly competent to compare and/or contrast the Bhikkhu's opinions with the texts as I understand them, but I do (obviously) think it's worthwhile to make a distinction between the two. I know this response is vague but hope that it may be of some use anyway. Always great to hear from you, Phil. mike #72326 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 7:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Herman, H: "Are you saying that rites and rituals actually do have an effect ?" L: If they condition the arising of kusala citta, that's an effect. If they condition the arising of akusala citta, that's an effect. There's lots of effects. Larry #72327 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 7:54 pm Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? kenhowardau Hi Phil --- <. . .> Ph: > Well, I tend to agree with you about the whole retreat thing as > well, though I can't say since I haven't been on one. Feels like > there would be too many forced expectations. > > On the other hand, no one will be able to make me believe that a > daily period or two of what is called "vipassana meditation" in > which one observes what the mind is up to from very close quarters > is not hugely helpful for taking one's first steps towards > liberation. --- It's the thin end of the wedge, Phil. Either there is no control (in absolute reality) or there is full control. You can't have it both ways. You can't have a little bit of control "just to get the process started." I think you will find the first steps are when we concede there is a version of the Dhamma that does not involve a 'doer' in the conventional sense of the word. We might not agree with that version of the Dhamma, but at least we are listening. ------------- <. . .> Ph: > I will leave the bit about drugs. My main point was to deny that all forms of meditation are about sensory deprivation. Au contraire - the one I practice is about sensory observation. ------------- I don't want to say, "Been there, done that!" It annoys the hell out of people. But back in the old days when I used to practice mindfulness, it was about concentrating on one thing at a time. When I was being mindful of a sound, for example, where was my mindfulness of visual images? Or of smells, flavours. physical sensations and all the mental activities? I would say they were excluded. My practice was more about being *unmindful* than about being mindful. Ken H #72328 From: han tun Date: Sun May 20, 2007 8:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts to Siila Corner (1) to Phil hantun1 Dear Phil, You are one of my best Dhamma friends, whether you consider the deepest teachings, or whether you wish to approach the Dhamma from a shallow angle. After all, one does only what one can do best. I like you for your keen interest and practice in siila, and your strong belief in the value of guarding the sense doors. And I like your posts! Respectfully, Han --- Phil wrote: > > Hi again Jon and all > > > But people > > like Han who refer to simple, straight-forward > suttas with > > confidence are my best Dhamma friends these days. > The people who > > keep it as simple as possible. > > I think I wrote a silly thing here. I do > appreciate Dhamma friends > who always challenge me to consider the deepest > teachings as well. (And > of course Han does that as well.) For some reason I > am being a little > obstinate about wanting to approach the Dhamma from > a shallow angle > these days. I guess that will change someday. > > > Metta, > > Phil > > #72329 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 8:37 pm Subject: Mindfulness of Death-7 buddhatrue Hi All, MINDFULNESS OF DEATH EIGHT WAYS OF RECOLLECTING DEATH (NUMBER 6): As signless: as indefinable. The meaning is that it is unpredictable. For in the case of all beings, The span, the sickness, and the time, and where The body will be laid, the destiny: The living world can never know these things; There is no sign foretells when they will be. Herein, firstly the span has no sign because there is no definition such as: just so much must be lived, no more than that. For beings [die in the various stages of embryo, namely], at the time of the kalala, of the abduna, of the pesi, of the Ghana, at one month gone, two months gone, three months gone, four months gone, five months gone…ten months gone, and on the occasion of coming out of the womb. And after that they die this side or the other of the century. And the sickness has no sign because there is no definition such as: Beings die only of this sickness, not of any other. For beings die of eye disease or of any one among those beginning with ear disease. And the time has no sign because there is no definition such as: One has to die only at this time, not at any other. For beings die in the morning and at any of the other times such as noon. And where the body will be laid down has no sign because here is no definition such as: When people die, they must drop their bodies only here, not anywhere else. For the person of those born inside a village is dropped outside the village, and that of those born outside the village is dropped inside it. Likewise that of those born on water is dropped on land, and that of those born on land on water. And this can be multiplied in many ways. And the destiny has no sign because there is no definition such as: One who dies there must be born here. For there are some who die in a divine world and are reborn in the human world, and there are some who die in the human world and are reborn in a divine world, and so on. And in this way the world goes round and round the five kinds of destinies like an ox harnessed to a machine. This is how death should be recollected as signless. To be continued…..EIGHT WAYS OF RECOLLECTING DEATH (NUMBER 7) Metta, James #72330 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 8:50 pm Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > When I was being mindful of a sound, for example, where was my > mindfulness of visual images? James: You can only be mindful of one thing at a time. If you are being mindful of sound then you can't be mindful of visual images as the same time. I thought you knew that?? Or of smells, flavours. physical > sensations and all the mental activities? I would say they were > excluded. James: Excluded at that moment? Of course they are excluded at that moment as you can only be mindful of one thing at a time. If you are talking about over a period of time, then it doesn't matter if the other senses were excluded. There are Four Foundations of Mindfulness and then there is jhana. You aren't being very clear about what your prior practice consisted of. My practice was more about being *unmindful* than about > being mindful. James: It sounds like you didn't even have a prior practice, or you didn't know what you were doing. Perhaps you received poor instructions? > > Ken H > Metta, James #72331 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 8:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. egberdina Hi Larry, On 21/05/07, LBIDD@... wrote: > > > Hi Herman, > > H: "Are you saying that rites and rituals actually do have an effect ?" > > L: If they condition the arising of kusala citta, that's an effect. If > they condition the arising of akusala citta, that's an effect. There's > lots of effects. > I may be completely wrong on this, but from discussions here at dsg I have come away with the notion that all self-view is akusala. I wonder which bits of the process of giving food to monks in order to free deceased relatives from their potential peta-state are not suffused with self-view? Herman #72332 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 9:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Herman, H: "I wonder which bits of the process of giving food to monks in order to free deceased relatives from their potential peta-state are not suffused with self-view?" L: I would say the generosity and the compassion. Larry #72333 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun May 20, 2007 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta Rules TGrand458@... Hi Howard Nice post. The thing with the Zen master that usually strikes me about Zen...is that it correctly is anti conceptualization, but incorrectly stifles thinking before one can garner enough knowledge to know why. Well, perhaps the Zen Master Stories we read are targeted to students with a vast background who are ripe for that type of instruction. Doesn't seem that way sometimes though. TG #72334 From: "robmoult" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 10:46 pm Subject: Relevance of Puggala-pannatti robmoult Hi All, I got an interesting email from one of my students... "I have read the Abhidhamma fourth book- Designation of Human Types. What are the applications?" I would be interested in your comments. Metta, Rob M :-) #72335 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 11:54 pm Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? kenhowardau Hi James, The Abhidhamma explains that citta can only experience one object at a time, but it is talking about absolute reality in which objects come and go in a trillionth of a second. Phil and I were talking about "formal practices." They include piano playing, archery and a million other conventionally real skills that can be intentionally developed. All conventional disciplines involve concentration - either on playing the right note or on hitting the right target etc - and, in my opinion, they all alter our state of consciousness. (some more than others, of course.) Last week I heard a radio program about Simone Weil, the author of Waiting for God. She had a practice of silently reciting the Lord's Prayer three or four times every day. When she did so she concentrated on every word, and if her concentration wavered to the slightest noticeable degree she would start again from the beginning. According to her, the practice had an astounding effect in which Christ's presence became radiantly clear. Isn't it the same with a good formal vipassana practice? When it works it has a gee-wiz factor that we want to write a book about - or, at least, talk about to anyone who will listen. The problem is, of course, no one really wants to listen. Other people's meditation stories are about as interesting as their holiday photos. ------------------- KH: >> My practice was more about being *unmindful* than about being mindful. > James: It sounds like you didn't even have a prior practice, or you didn't know what you were doing. Perhaps you received poor instructions? ------------------- I sure did! But they were the same instructions that you and all the other formal meditators have received. At the time, I used to read the same popular books and articles that most other Buddhists read. But you get my point about being unmindful, don't you? During a really good session of piano practice, or football practice, or whatever, people will be unaware of other things going on around them. At the end they might exclaim, "Is that the time already? Look, the sun has gone down!" :-) Ken H #72336 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 21, 2007 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Relevance of Puggala-pannatti sarahprocter... Hi Rob M & students, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi All, > > I got an interesting email from one of my students... > > "I have read the Abhidhamma fourth book- Designation of Human Types. > What are the applications?" > > I would be interested in your comments. .... S: A very good question and thanks for challenging us with it too! I think that as with all the texts, the application depends on the wise consideration whilst reading and reflecting. If there is no wise consideration, then there is no useful application. It is very easy to read this entire volume with an idea of people who are this way or that way. For example, Ch 1V talks about the sort of person who is not a good man, 'more' not a good man than the first one, a good man, a 'better' than a good man, a wicked man, a 'more' wicked than the wicked man and so on. If we don't appreciate that in truth and reality there are only cittas, cetasikas and rupas (as we read so much about in the first 3 volumes of the Abhidhamma Pitaka), we might come away with the idea that the Buddha is merely reinforcing our conventional ideas of good and bad people. In fact, as the useful introduction to this English translation stresses, 'the individual has no real existence. The term 'puggala' does not mean anything real.' Later it also tells us how the commentary to the text mentions that 'pa~n~natti means 'explanation,' 'preaching,' 'pointing-out,' 'establishing,' 'showing,' and 'exposition.' ' So when the text refers to different types of people, it is actually using pa~n~natti to point out various combinations of cittas, cetasikas and rupas. When it says a person is 'not a good man', it refers to the cittas involved in the destroying of life, the taking of what is not given and so on. When it refers to 'a good man', it is referring to the cittas involved in the refraining from harmful acts and so on. So, we are used to thinking of ourselves and others as being this or that kind of person whereas in fact 'the person' changes from moment to moment according to conditioned cittas and cetasikas. Some of the descriptions in the text point to this momentary aspect of cittas very clearly, but are very difficult to follow without reading notes given from the commentary. For example, at the very beginning under 'The Table of Contents' (1) we read about 'The Grouping of Human Types by One": >1) The One who is emancipated in season. >2) One who is emancipated out of season.<...> >10) One become of the family of the Ariyas. These are a few examples, but what do they mean? Even these following notes have to be appreciated as referring to momentary cittas, otherwise we go wrong again: >1) Samanyavimutto applies to Sotaapanna (stream-enterer), sakadaagaamii (once-returner) and anaagaami (never-returner) (Commentary) >2) Asamayavimutto - It applies to Sukkhavipassaka-khii.naasavas, 'dry-visioned saints' (Arahants who do not practise Jhaana) (Commentary) >10) Gotrabhuu- According to the Commentary, this term is applied to a person who has reached the family, circle, or designation of Ariyas by surpassing the family, circle, or designation of ordinary persons through the knowledge acquired by meditation on Nirvaa.na....The term Gotrabhuu comes from the word Gotra, meaning 'lineage.' And 'bhuu' meaning 'born of'. ' 'Evolving the lineage' "is the name for the stage when, in a moment of spiritual regeneration, the kinship to Kaamaloka is rejected for the communion of the Ariyas...." ' ***** S: In other words, again these terms bound up with the use of people actually refer to very brief, momentary cittas. Again back to the first set of examples in Ch 4, we read that the person of a lovely disposition is the one who refrains from breaking the precepts, refrains from all kinds of harmful speech and is one with right views. The person who is 'more lovely than one of lovely disposition' is the one who not only is lovely in these ways but who also 'incites' others to follow the same good behaviour and to have right views. If we appreciate that this is referring to kusala (wholesome/skilful) dhammas, rather than to 'you' or 'me' it can be a condition to see the value and develop such states, but without clinging to any idea of 'being a good person'. This is the right view that we find in the Buddha's teachings - the application with an appreciation of 'anatta' that we don't find elsewhere. As I said at the outset, I believe the applications and the value of this and any other texts depend on the understanding and wise reflection whilst we are considering them. If you and your student have further discussion or if there is further feedback/questions, please share with us! I hope others who've read this text also give their comments. Metta, Sarah p.s Any wise reflections to share from your funeral speech you mentioned to me (off-list)? Hope to see you next time in H.K. ============ #72337 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun May 20, 2007 11:51 pm Subject: The Classic 40 Meditation Objects! bhikkhu5 Friends: What are the 40 Classic Buddhist Meditation Objects? The Buddha taught 40 principal meditation objects kammatthÄ?na:: kammatthÄ?na literally means: Place of work, basis of action leading to the various degrees of mental meditational absorption jhÄ?na . The 40 meditation subjects are: I. Ten kasina exercises: Kasina = 'Entirety'. All 4 jhÄ?nas possible: 1: Earth kasina, 2: Water kasina, 3: Fire kasina, 4: Wind kasina, 5: Blue kasina, 6: Yellow kasina, 7: Red kasina, 8: White kasina, 9: Light or consciousness kasina, 10: Space kasina. II. Ten perceptions of disgust : asubha-sañña:. 1st jhÄ?na possible: A swollen & bloated corpse, a bluish livid corpse, a rotting corpse, a cut-up & split corpse, a gnawed corpse, a hacked corpse, a spread scattered corpse, a bloody corpse, a corpse of maggots, a skeleton. III. Ten contemplations , remembrances or recollections anussati:: 1: On the Buddha , 2: The Dhamma , 3: Noble Sangha community, 4: Morality , 5: Generosity , 6: Heavenly divine beings, 7: Death , 8: Body , 9: In-and-out-breathing All 4 jhÄ?nas possible, 10: Peace . IV. Four divine abodes or infinite states brahma-vihÄ?ra:: 1: All-embracing friendliness = mettÄ?:, 2: Pity = karunÄ?:, 3: Mutual joy = muditÄ?, 4: Equanimity = upekkhÄ?:. V. Four formless spheres arÅ«pÄ?yatana: based on the 4th jhÄ?na: 1: The infinitude of space, 2: The infinitude of consciousness, 3: Empty nothingness, 4: Neither-perception-nor-non-perception. VI. Perception of the disgust of food. Ä?hÄ?re patikkÅ«la-saññÄ?: VII. Defining Analysis of the four elements dhÄ?tu-vavatthÄ?na:. Details: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/l /DPPN/wtb/b_f/bhaavanaa.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library ibrary/DPPN/wtb/g_m/kasina.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/l ibrary/DPPN/wtb/a/asubha.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/a/anussati.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/b/buddha.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/b_f/dhamma.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/s_t/sangha.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/b_f/caaga.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/s_t/siila.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/b_f/deva.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/marana.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/kaaya_gata_sati.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/a/anapana_sati.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/u_v/upasamaanussati.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/b_f/brahma_vihaara.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/jhaana.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/b_f/dhaatu_vavatthaana.htm The 40 Meditation Objects! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #72338 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 12:25 am Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? buddhatrue Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi James, > > The Abhidhamma explains that citta can only experience one object at > a time, but it is talking about absolute reality in which objects > come and go in a trillionth of a second. Phil and I were talking > about "formal practices." They include piano playing, archery and a > million other conventionally real skills that can be intentionally > developed. You and Phil were talking about piano playing and archery? I could have sworn that you were talking about meditation!! ;-)) Do you see what you have done in this post? I ask a few simple questions about meditation and I don't get any direct answers; instead I get a long diatribe which covers subjects ranching from piano playing and archery to Christian prayer to football practice. All I can tell is that you are vehemently opposed to: piano practice, archery, football practice, and Christian prayer. But I guess surfing is okay? ;-)) What about Buddhist meditation?? None of these things are the Four Foundations of Mindfulness or Jhana that I asked about. I can't adequately reply to your post because it covers so many subjects. But, thank you for your attempt to answer me anyway. Metta, James #72339 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 21, 2007 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight. nilovg Hi Howard, See the Susima sutta and Co. about dry insight workers. See also Sarah's post about the Puggala pa~n~natti: people who did not develop evcen ruupajhaanas can become enlightened. Nina. Op 20-mei-2007, om 15:02 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > I have a question. Some people say that Kh Sujin is not Theravada > > since she does not encourage what is called formal meditation. Has > > the Buddha ever said that everybody has to develop tranquillity, > that > > it is not possible to become enlightened by vipassana alone? > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The distinction the Buddha seems to have made is between those who > attained only the 1st 4 jhanas, and those who attained formless > jhanas also. > - #72340 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 21, 2007 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Relevance of Puggala-pannatti nilovg Dear Sarah, I like this post very much. I sent it to Lodewijk (good for him: there is no person) and keep it in my favorite files. Nina. Op 21-mei-2007, om 9:06 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > I think that as with all the texts, the application depends on the > wise > consideration whilst reading and reflecting. If there is no wise > consideration, then there is no useful application. #72341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 21, 2007 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Larry, Herman, When perfroming any kind of kusala, be it dana, sila or bhaavana, with pure intention, with kusala citta, one can let others know, dead or alive, doing this also with kusala citta, not in order to boast. This is a way to condition kusala citta also in others. It is one of the three ways of daana, and it falls under the ten bases of meritorious deeds. It is based on the Tipitaka. Herman, of course one can spoil any kind of kusala with selfishness or superstition, but kusala is done with the pure, kusala citta. You see how we need abhidhamma, to know our cittas. As Larry said: it can be done with metta, and compassion. You spoke about < listing in detail the different types of ghosts, their mode of generation, their mode of being.> and find this strange. It shows cause and result, deeds bring their results accordingly. All based on the teachings. Kamma-condition is one type of condition. Larry asked how to transfer merit: one can think of one's deceased relatives and say their names. One does not know in which plane they are, but the Buddha said that if someone is not in a situation to appreciate it, other deceased persons will. This type of kusala is not wasted. It does not matter. Also devas can appreciate other people's kusala. I read about people leaving food or drink for ghosts, but when it is their vipaaka to have hunger and thirst they cannot take it. Nina. Op 21-mei-2007, om 2:32 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > N: "The fourth kind of petas profit from 'transference of merit', > dedication of kusala, when gifts have been made to others in the human > plane." > > L: How does this work? Must one first recognize kusala citta? Then > what? > What does one say or do? >> ___.___ > When merit is transfered does it go only to > this kind of ghost or can it go to other beings as well? In Tibet > there > is the practice of leaving a small portion of a meal for a certain > kind > of peta as well as prayers before and after a meal. Is there this > practice in Theravadin traditions? #72342 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 21, 2007 12:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner nilovg Dear Han, thank you for your answer. Also in Thai temples there are similar actions. But in India we dedicated kusala after a Dhamma discussion. This is bhavana and the merit can be transferred. On this list we also have dhamma discussions, thus, bhaavanaa. What about you in daily life, at home? I am thinking about the perfections accumulated by the Bodhiosatta and I read: there was no daana he had not performed, no siila he had not observed. Under siila is also helping and respect. Nina. Op 21-mei-2007, om 0:07 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > On the seventh day of the > death of a person, the relatives offered alms food to > the monks and guests. When the monks have eaten the > food, they chant together while one of the relatives > pours water from a flask into a dish. At the end, all > say together loudly "Amya!" three times transferring > our merits to all beings, and then say "Sadhu!" three > times. #72343 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 21, 2007 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] all that is caused by previous action sarahprocter... Dear Matheesha & Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Matheesha, > Thank you for reminding us of this sutta. I posted before the > Commentary and subcommentary and it can be found in dsg archives. .... S: See under "Useful Posts": Sivaka Sutta, SN36 11193, 13094, 64421, 64622 (Of course, if you go to U.P. the numbers of the archived posts are highlighted to take you straight to them). > These explain many points of this sutta. ... S: Yes. Matheesha, did you have any particular reason for quoting the sutta? We (Nina & I) always like to hear your reflections. .... >Maybe you can google the > sutta. Sarah is always so clever to find the right links, I do not > know how she does it. ... S: Nina, I'm just familiar with what headings there are in U.P. You may have been away when I recently also mentioned how good the yahoo search function is on the DSG homepage now. For example, if you (or Math or anyone)goes to the homepage: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/ Then, put 'Nina, Sivaka, commentary' in the search, you'll find all your messages (and a few others) on this topic are immediately shown on two pages, going back several years. It just takes a couple of minutes max to find them. So, Matheesha, let's hear a little more from you! Do you have any disagreement with any comments which prompted you to quote this sutta? Metta, Sarah > > Sivaka > > Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove > > Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering > > ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after > > an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. #72344 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 21, 2007 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence sarahprocter... Hi Larry, (TG & all), Thanks to you and TG too! --- Larry wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Great detective work! Regarding my interpretation of "mind" as "brain", > notice that this > section is concerned with vatthu, the physical basis of the various > consciousnesses. I > thought mano vatthu must be the heart base. .... S: Vatthu here is a difficult term, with different meanings, I think. Sometimes, as I understand, vatthu can be referring to the 6 internal ayatanas. So while it's true that in the case of the eye-base.....body-semse-base are not only the inner ayatana, but also the physical vatthu and also doorway (dvara), in the case of manayatana (mind-base), it refers to all kinds of consciousness (citta). Vism XV, 13: "in brief the twelve bases are simply mentality-materiality because the mind base and one part of the mental-data base are included in mentality, and the rest of the bases in materiality." Vism XV11, 52 (to be read in the light of the last quote): "The sixfold base (sa.laayatana) has the characteristic of actuating (aayatana). Its function is to see, and so on. It is manifested as the state of physical basis (vatthu) and door (dvara). Its proximate cause is mentality-materiality...." So in the text, when mano is translated as mind or consciousness (rather than heart-base or brain (by a well-known commentator!!), I believe it is correct. If you look up mano in the glossary at the back of Vism or in Nyantiloka's dictionary, you'll see that it always refers to citta, to naama and never to ruupa. .... I notice in the Buddhist > Dictionary that the > mano vatthu is not given a specific location in the Patthana. .... S: Are you sure it uses the phrase 'mano vatthu'? In any case, as you say, the vatthu or base for the mind door process is a rupa, given as the hadaya-vatthu (heart-base) in the commentaries. Lots under 'haddaya-vatthu' in U.P. In our Psm text under discussion, if it were the subtle rupa being referred to, then I think it would have included the phrase 'derived from the four great elements' as you say. But, I don't think it is. .... >Later > commentators assigned > it to the heart, while this commentator assigned it to the brain. But it > is interesting that > this text didn't say that this vatthu was derived from the four great > elements. Perhaps > there are variations in different editions of the text. ... S: Errors can creep into different manuscripts and I believe a note for the next section suggests such a difference, but let's not go there....:-) Also, I should say that I made a comment to what I see was some clumsy translation in 371. However, if one reads the introduction with regard to the great difficulties and years/decades in making this text available, one can imagine that errors may have crept in at any stage in the production, not necessarily by the translator. Metta, Sarah ========== #72345 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 21, 2007 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence sarahprocter... Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > I do not have time to look closely. But as to nutriment ahaara, can > it be the mano-sa~ncetanaa ahaara? Thus, the mental food that is kamma? > Just a thought. .... S:> > Also, I believe it's an error under cakkhu (eye) when it says 'Eye is > > produced by nutriment' after 'eye is produced by action'. The Pali > > has: > > > > "cakkhu.m kammasambhuuta'nti vavattheti" (eye is produced by kamma), > > followed by the line about being dependent on the 4 great elements. .... S: My point was that n the Pali, the phrase 'aahaara sambhuuto 'ti vavattheti' is not given for the eye (whereas it is for kaayo and mano). However, in the translation, it is not excluded after the reference to kamma, given for all of them. Metta, Sarah ======= #72346 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 21, 2007 2:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] discussion and a question, sarahprocter... Dear Nina (& Howard), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah and Howard, > You are both good at formulating. I often write: they are only nama > and rupa, they are only elements. Lodewijk does not like the use of > the word only. I explained that it implies that they are slight, > insignificant, in Pali: paritta. .... S: For me, there are two senses of 'only'. 1) when I hear, read or use 'only nama and rupa, they are only elements', I think 'ONLY' is very significant and to be stressed. We hear and hear about namas and rupas and yet still try to introduce people and things all the time. It seems that we don't really have confidence or enough understanding that there is nothing else in life apart from cittas, cetasikas and rupas. The rest is merely conceptualised. 2) is the sense you stressed in your message. Here, whether 'only' or 'mere' is used is the same to me. We cling to the ungraspable as Howard stressed. Not only the ungraspable but elements or dhammas which are totally unsatisfactory in every sense because of their impermanence and the fact they cannot be controlled ever. ... >We find them so important but they > fall away immediately. They are like what is contained in an empty > fist, when you open a fist. Nothing in it. > Then I read to Lodewijk the Conditions, Intro, emphasizing loudly > each word: < Therefore, the khandhas cannot be a real refuge, they > are dukkha, unsatisfactory. Further on we read that they are a > calamity, an affliction, a plague, no protection, no shelter, as > murderous, because of breaking faith like an enemy posing as a > friend...> > Lodewijk said after each expression: yes, perfectly true, correct, true. > He suggested to use sometimes: mere dhammas. .... S: Yes, the khandhas are really an affliction and no shelter at all. We can say 'mere dhammas', 'mere dhatus', mere khandhas', but the point is to understand what the realities are now which can be known, whatever the terms used. Seeing can be known, hearing can be known, likes and dislikes can be known. People and things can never be known because they don't exist in any ultimate sense. I think this also relates to questions about what sati is. As I see it, when we clearly appreciate exactly what the realities are now which can be known, i.e. what namas are and what rupas are, then sati will begin to develop of its own accord and 'only nama and rupa', 'only elements' will be welcomed! Metta, Sarah ======== #72347 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 21, 2007 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction sarahprocter... Dear Claudia (& Phra Alan), --- Cláudia wrote: > Phra Alan, > You are welcome to the group. People with such experince as yours are > always those who can teach more. I'm also an English teacher living in > Brazil, my country. For the last 10 years I've been working in school > which > stays in the middle of the most intenseive drug traffic in my town. ... S: Thanks Claudia for introducing yourself a little more and telling us about your home and work. We've have a few other Brazilian members here, all lurking at present. Icaro is the most colourful if you haven't met him! .... >It > was > very common to meet students at school dealing cocain, crack and other > drugs. So I know what the bad the drug can make. You said at some point > of > your comment "I suffer from bipolar > disorder (Manic depression) and have been obliged to take medication > which > does interfere with my practice. > How is that? I also suffer from bipolar disorder, take some medication, > and > recently I've noticed my practice has been changing. Could you talk a > little about this, please. I'm quite worried, you know. If I > have to > choose between buddhism and medication, I'll certainly stay with > buddhism. .... S: I'd be very interested to read Phra Alan's further comments too. I have a lot of sympathies for people suffereing from bipolar or manic depression. My father used to and it caused tremendous difficulties. However, I don't see any need to 'choose between buddhism and medication' and as to whether it affects the 'practice', it depends on how one views 'practice'. As I see it, any dhamma (reality) appearing can be known and this is 'practice'. So we may be under medication or very sick, but there are still realities to be known. There is still seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, thinking, aversion or whatever else. It may seem that we are more 'fuzzy-minded' or 'sedated', but this is more thinking which can be known too, just as the different feelings or tangible objects such as heat and cold, can be known at such times as well. In the suttas, we read about followers who became arahants whilst on their death-beds or in extreme physical pain. The great value of the teachings is that they are equally applicable and to be practised by anyone with insight into different namas and rupas. Please let us know how it goes Claudia and thank you again for your honest and open introduction following on from your other good questions before. Metta, Sarah ======== #72348 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 21, 2007 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] discussion and a question, nilovg Dear Sarah, thank you, I sent it on to Lodewijk. For the first meaning of only, he may object that we should not forget that there are individuals, each with their own accumulations. He said that the word only could be abused. He greatly appreciated your post on Puggala pa~n~natti, very balanced, he said. Nina. Op 21-mei-2007, om 11:04 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > 1) when I hear, read or use 'only nama and rupa, they are only > elements', > I think 'ONLY' is very significant and to be stressed. #72349 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 4:14 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? kenhowardau Hi Howard, ---------- <. . .> H: > Are you claiming to have developed the iddhi of mind-reading, Ken? ;-) How many jhana practitioners do you know, and how well, that you can evaluate their moral caliber? ----------- As I see it, the jhana meditator - or anyone in a position to consider attempting jhana meditation - will be in a class above ordinary people. True, such a person might have the appearance of being quite ordinary, I don't know, but deep down he or she will be very different. So, when I say someone is not moral enough to attempt jhana I am not saying they are immoral. By ordinary standards they could be exceptionally moral, but still not enough for jhana. That's how I imagine it to be, anyway. Ken H . #72350 From: han tun Date: Mon May 21, 2007 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: What about you in daily life, at home? ---------- Han: Now I have a very quiet life at home. I have the chance to do daana once a month. A temple in Wat Mahaathat allows Burmese community and Burmese monks to meet once a month. There, I offer alms food and other requisites to the monks and to the Burmese community. I observe five precepts. I do meditation on-cushion and off-cushion. I do kaayaanupassanaa (aanaapaanasati) on-cushion; and kaayaanupassanaa (aanaapaanasati) and cittaanupassana off-cushion. I am not doing anything special with a view to accumulate the Ten Perfections. To be frank, I have no specific goal. I will do siila, samaadhi, and bhaavanaa to the best of my ability. The outcome of my efforts is beyond my control. If I have accumulations and conditions I may attain something. If I do not attain anything it would not bother me much. I will do my best, and the rest will be my kamma. Respectfully, Han #72351 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 21, 2007 12:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anatta Rules upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 5/21/07 12:05:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Nice post. > > The thing with the Zen master that usually strikes me about Zen...is that > it > correctly is anti conceptualization, but incorrectly stifles thinking before > > one can garner enough knowledge to know why. Well, perhaps the Zen Master > Stories we read are targeted to students with a vast background who are ripe > > for that type of instruction. Doesn't seem that way sometimes though. > > TG > =========================== Well, for a tradition that claims to bypass writing and thinking, the corpus of sutras and commentaries is *huge*! ;-) And some Zen masters, most especially Ven Thich Nhat Hanh, put great emphasis on the Pali suttas. So, Zen's not entirely what it is said to be. With metta, Howard #72352 From: "Phil" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 4:39 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner philofillet Hi Mike > What can be understood is of course always a matter of opinion (for us > puthujjanaa, at least). With all due respect (which is very > considerable) I don't hold BB's opinions as being in quite the same > category of those (if they are opinions) expressed in the ancient > commentaries. I don't feel particularly competent to compare and/or > contrast the Bhikkhu's opinions with the texts as I understand them, > but I do (obviously) think it's worthwhile to make a distinction > between the two. Ok. I tend to have more confidence in BB than in TB because I think the latter is more passsionate about teaching meditation (I love his talks, personally, very helfpul for beginners) while the former seems more of an academic in his approach to the texts, therefore being more objective, I assume. But nevermind. Personally, I think the sutta passage in question is clear enough in making it clear that supramundane *right* view is that of the ariyan and is clearly compared to the right view of worldlings who do not gain liberation from samsara through their right view, but at least do not fall into gross wrong view that leads them into evil deeds. It is this latter right view that interests me, personally. The wrong view of *not* having the right view of the ariyan? Not a concern. I don't think that this supramundane right view can be attained by thinking about it. Nice talking with you as always, Mike. Metta, Phil #72353 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 21, 2007 1:11 am Subject: "Dry Insight" (Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight.) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/21/07 3:29:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > See the Susima sutta and Co. about dry insight workers. See also > Sarah's post about the Puggala pa~n~natti: people who did not develop > evcen ruupajhaanas can become enlightened. > Nina. > ========================= I've read the Susima Sutta before, and I just reread it. There is NO WAY that it speaks of not attaining jhanas, but only of not attaining the formless jhanas. Moreover, the term 'release through discernment' most generally doesn't even rule out the formless jhanas. Specifically, please look at the Pa~n~n avimutti Sutta, to be found at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html, and that I copy right here: ________________________ AN 9.44 Paññavimutti Sutta Released Through Discernment Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: A iv 452 Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. Copyright © 1997 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1997 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. [Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?"[Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment."Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment."Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described in a non-sequential way by the Blessed One as released through discernment." There is also the following from the Kitagiri Sutta, to be found at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.070.than.html : _________________________ "Monks, there are these seven individuals to be found in the world. Which seven? One [released] both ways, one released through discernment, a bodily witness, one attained to view, one released through conviction, a Dhamma-follower, and a conviction-follower."And what is the individual [released] both ways? There is the case where a certain individual remains touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, and â€" having seen with discernment â€" his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual [released] both ways.4 Regarding this monk, I do not say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? He has done his task with heedfulness. He is incapable of being heedless."And what is the individual released through discernment? There is the case where a certain individual does not remain touching with his body those peaceful liberations that transcend form, that are formless, but â€" having seen with discernment â€" his fermentations are ended. This is called an individual who is released through discernment.5 Regarding this monk, I do not say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. Why is that? He has done his task with heedfulness. He is incapable of being heedless. I also point out to you that there is a sutta - I forget the reference - in which the Buddha says that one who has mastered jhana should then go to be taught the mastery of wisdom, and one who has mastered wisdom should then go to be taught to master jhana. And then, finally, Nina, I leave you with the following from the Dhammapada, which I think is rather clear: ______________________________ 372. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks insight, and no insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He in whom are found both meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana. With metta, Howard #72354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 21, 2007 6:19 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 1, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, People who develop samatha, tranquil meditation, may have accumulated skill for the attainment of jhåna, absorption. When there are the right conditions jhånacittas arise. There are jhånacittas of different stages of rúpa-jhåna, material jhåna, and arúpa-jhåna, immaterial jhåna [1]. The rúpa-jhånacittas (rúpåvacara cittas) and the arúpa- jhånacittas (arúpåvacara cittas) always have three hetus, because there cannot be absorption without paññå. Through the development of insight, vipassanå, right understanding of realities gradually grows and when understanding has been developed to the degree that enlightenment can be attained, lokuttara cittas which experience nibbåna arise. Lokuttara cittas always have three hetus because they are accompanied by paññå which is lokuttara. Not all cittas have hetus, there are also rootless cittas, ahetuka cittas which may be vipåkacittas (result) or kiriyacittas (neither cause nor result, inoperative). When visible object impinges on the eyesense, it is experienced by cittas arising in the eyedoor process [2]; it is experienced by seeing which is ahetuka vipåkacitta, and by other ahetuka cittas and then cittas performing the function of javana (impulsion or "running through the object'') arise, and these are (in the case of non-arahats) kusala cittas or akusala cittas and thus, with hetus. After the eye-door process is over, visible object is experienced through the mind-door; there is the mind-door adverting-consciousness which is ahetuka and then there are javanacittas which are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Good deeds or bad deeds are performed during the moments of javana. Then kamma is accumulated which can produce its result later on. One also accumulates good and bad tendencies which condition the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta in the future. When kusala javana-cittas are accompanied by paññå which is right understanding of realities, right understanding is accumulated. As we have seen in the classification of cittas rooted in sobhana hetus, there are vipåkacittas with hetus [3]. Kamma produces rebirth-consciousness, paìisandhi-citta, which is vipåkacitta, and this vipåkacitta, depending on the type and degree of kamma which produces it, may be: ahetuka, or accompanied by two roots, namely alobha and adosa, or accompanied by three roots, and in that case it has paññå in addition. The roots condition the citta and the accompanying cetasikas by way of root-condition. All bhavanga-cittas (life-continuum [4]) and the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness) are of the same type of citta as the paìisandhi- citta. ----------- Footnotes: 1.The meditation subjects of rúpa-jhåna are dependant on materiality, whereas those of arúpa-jhåna do not and thus, arúpa- jhåna is more tranquil, more refined. 2. The objects which impinge on the six doors are experienced by several cittas arising in a process, which each perform their own function. Some of these cittas are ahetuka kiriyacitta, some ahetuka vipåkacitta, and some are accompanied by roots, namely the javana- cittas which are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. See Appendix 1. 3.Some vipåkacittas are ahetuka, rootless,such as seeing- consciousness or hearing-consciousness, and some vipåkacittas are accompanied by roots. 4. Bhavanga-cittas arise in between the processes of cittas, they preserve the continuity in the life of a being. They do not experience the objects which impinge on the senses and the mind, they experience their own object, which is the same as the object experienced by the rebirth-consciousness. ********* Nina. #72355 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 21, 2007 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight. sarahprocter... Hi Nina & Howard, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > See the Susima sutta and Co. about dry insight workers. .... S: In case you're wondering, also lots of past posts on Susima & commentary in U.P.: >Susima sutta, SN 12371, 19330, 19389, 19390, 30189, 30191, 46905, 46967 Metta, Sarah ======= #72356 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 21, 2007 6:43 am Subject: Re: "Dry Insight" (Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight.) nilovg Hi Howard, true, pa~n~navimutta includes both jhaanalabhi and dry insight workers. And sometimes calm refers to supramundane: the phalacitta. We have to be very careful. The Jhanas, by ven. Henepola (Wheel 351, 352) gives good info and deals with dry insight on p. 70, I referred to before: Co to the Susimasutta: N: the sotaapanna has fulfilled siila, he does not transgress the five precepts.The anaagami has fulfilled calm, because he has eradicated attachment to sense-pleasures. This is also the case if he has not developed jhaana. By nature he is calm. The arahat has fulfilled sila, samaadhi and also perfect insight. --------- As to the question: should everybody develop jhana: see the same book, the fours, 26: After this a person who attains both and a person who attains neither are mentioned. Here we see that by sukkha vipassana enlightenment can be attained. All arahats have eradicated the defilements completely, but they have different degrees of qualities. Some have mastery of all jhanas and also the four discriminations, some have mastery of all jhanas but are not endowed with the dircriminations, some are sukkha vipassaka. ------- Nina. Op 21-mei-2007, om 14:11 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I've read the Susima Sutta before, and I just reread it. There is NO > WAY that it speaks of not attaining jhanas, but only of not > attaining the > formless jhanas. > Moreover, the term 'release through discernment' most generally > doesn't even rule out the formless jhanas. Specifically, please > look at the Pa~n~n > avimutti Sutta, #72357 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 21, 2007 6:49 am Subject: Perfections N, no 30 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 8 THE PERFECTION OF TRUTHFULNESS Sincerity or truthfulness, sacca, is another perfection the Bodhisatta developed. When one is seeking the truth one is inclined to truthfulness also in speech. The Bodhisatta did not speak falsehood and he always kept his promise, even when he was in danger of life. The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) speaks about different aspects of truthfulness: Without truthfulness, virtue, etc. is impossible, and there can be no practice in accordance with ones vows. All evil states converge upon the transgression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future. On the other hand, one devoted to truth secures the foundations of all noble qualities. With truthfulness as the foundation, he is capable of purifying and fulfilling all the requisites of enlightenment. Not deceived about the true nature of dhammas, he performs the functions of all the requisites of enlightenment and completes the practice of the Bodhisatta path. The same commentary 2) gives the following definition of truthfulness: Truthfulness has the characteristic of non-deceptiveness in speech; its function is to verify in accordance with fact; its manifestation is excellence; honesty is its proximate cause. The function of truthfulness is verifying according to fact. What are the facts? Our ignorance and the many defilements which arise are facts. We should not be deluded about realities. Do we want to know them as they are, or do we pretend to be more virtuous and wise than we actually are? It takes courage to verify according to fact, but sincerity is indispensable for the development of right understanding. We may take akusala citta for kusala citta, but we have to verify the truth. For example, when we are helping others we may think that there are kusala cittas all the time, but is this true? "Helping can be very superior', Bhante Dhammadhara reminded us. Is there conceit, is there up-holding of ourselves in our dealings with others? Do we expect kindness in return for our good deeds? Very shortly after the kusala cittas have fallen away there are bound to be akusala cittas but we may not notice this. We take for kusala what is akusala, but also the opposite may be the case. We may take, for example, confidence in the Dhamma for lobha. When there is con- fidence in wholesomeness, saddha cetasika, it can be accompanied by pleasant feeling and since lobha can also be accompanied by pleasant feeling, we may think that as soon as there is pleasant feeling there must be akusala citta. It is not easy to know the true facts, but we can verify according to fact by being mindful of the different realities of our daily life. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Ven. Bodhi, p. 283. 2. Ven. Bodhi, p. 261... ********** Nina. #72358 From: connie Date: Mon May 21, 2007 8:46 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) nichiconn dear friends, part 15 of 17 "Tato vu.t.thaaya nibbaayi, diipacciiva niraasavaa; bhuumicaalo mahaa aasi, nabhasaa vijjutaa pati. "Panaaditaa dundubhiyo, paridevi.msu devataa; pupphavu.t.thii ca gaganaa, abhivassatha medani.m. "Kampito meruraajaapi, ra"ngamajjhe yathaa na.to; sokena caatidiinova, viravo aasi saagaro. "Devaa naagaasuraa brahmaa, sa.mviggaahi.msu ta"nkha.ne; aniccaa vata sa"nkhaaraa, yathaaya.m vilaya.m gataa. "Yaa ce ma.m parivaari.msu, satthu saasanakaarikaa; tayopi anupaadaanaa, diipacci viya nibbutaa. When she arose from that she was quenched like the flame of a lamp, without taints. And there was a great earthquake and lightning fell from the sky. Drums rolled, devataas lamented. A shower of flowers rained down from the sky on the earth. Meru, the king [of mountains], shook like an actor on a stage downcast with grief, and the ocean roared. The devas, Naagas, Asuras, and Brahmaas were deeply moved at that moment: "Indeed, formations are impermanent, just as this [woman] is dispersed. "These who carry out the Teacher's teachings and who surrounded her [Gotamii], they are all quenched, like the flame of a lamp without fuel. "Haa yogaa vippayogantaa, haanicca.m sabbasa"nkhata.m; haa jiivita.m vinaasanta.m, iccaasi paridevanaa. "Tato devaa ca brahmaa ca, lokadhammaanuvattana.m; kaalaanuruupa.m kubbanti, upetvaa isisattama.m. "Tadaa aamantayii satthaa, aananda.m sutasaagara.m; gacchaananda nivedehi, bhikkhuuna.m maatu nibbuti.m. "Tadaanando niraanando, assunaa pu.n.nalocano; gaggarena sarenaaha, samaagacchantu bhikkhavo. "Pubbadakkhi.napacchaasu, uttaraaya ca santike; su.nantu bhaasita.m mayha.m, bhikkhavo sugatorasaa. "Alas, ties end in separation. Alas, all conditioned states are impermanent. Alas, life ends in destruction." This was their lamentation. Then the devas and the Brahmaa[s] did what conforms to common practice and the proper time and approached the Best of Seers. Then the Teacher addressed Aananda, the ocean of learning; "Go Aananda, announce my mother's [final] peace to the bhikkhus." Then Aananda, with eyes full of tears, said in a broken voice, "May the bhikkhus assemble. "Those who are in the east, south, west and north; those who are in the vicinity, let the bhikkhus, the legitimate heirs of the Sublime One, hear this speech. "Yaa va.d.dhayi payattena, sariira.m pacchima.m mune; saa gotamii gataa santi.m, taaraava suuriyodaye. "Buddhamaataapi pa~n~natti.m, .thapayitvaa gataasama.m; na yattha pa~ncanettopi, gati.m dakkhati naayako. "Yassatthi sugate saddhaa, yo ca piyo mahaamune; buddhamaatussa sakkaara.m, karotu sugatoraso. "Suduura.t.thaapi ta.m sutvaa, siighamaagacchu bhikkhavo; keci buddhaanubhaavena, keci iddhiisu kovidaa. "Kuu.taagaaravare ramme, sabbaso.n.namaye subhe; ma~ncaka.m samaaropesu.m, yattha suttaasi gotamii. "The one who brought up the Sages' final [material] body, making a great effort - Gotamii - she has gone to peace, like the stars at sunrise. "Putting aside concepts, the Buddha's mother has gone to the unequalled, the realm where even the One with Five Eyes, the Leader, cannot see her. "Whoever has faith in the Sublime One, and whoever is dear to the Great Sage, let him, that legitimate offspring of the Sublime One, pay honour to the Buddha's mother." Bhikkhus who heard him came, even those standing a very long way off, some by the power of the Buddha, some through being skilled in supernormal powers. They placed the couch on which Gotamii had slept in a beautiful, delightful, splendid pinnacled building all made of gold. === tbc, connie #72359 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 21, 2007 5:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Nina) - > >See the Susima sutta and Co. about dry insight workers. > .... > S: In case you're wondering, also lots of past posts on Susima & > commentary in U.P.: > > >Susima sutta, SN 12371, 19330, 19389, 19390, 30189, 30191, 46905, 46967 > ===================== Thanks, Sarah. I'm saving this post in my in-box to look at these later on. With metta, Howard #72360 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 10:34 am Subject: "Dry Insight" (Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight.) buddhatrue Hi Howard (and Nina), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 5/21/07 3:29:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard, > > See the Susima sutta and Co. about dry insight workers. See also > > Sarah's post about the Puggala pa~n~natti: people who did not develop > > evcen ruupajhaanas can become enlightened. > > Nina. > > > ========================= > I've read the Susima Sutta before, and I just reread it. There is NO > WAY that it speaks of not attaining jhanas... I also agree with you. The Susima Sutta is not any type of proof of enlightenment without jhanas. Actually, jhanas aren't even mentioned in the sutta*! Susima asks a group of arahants if they have any types of psychic powers, and they answer no to all of the different psychic powers that he lists. He is amazed because he equates being "liberated" with having psychic powers. He doesn't understand how they could be liberated without psychic powers and they tell him that they have been liberated by insight, not by psychic powers. Susima then goes to the Buddha who explains how it is that one is liberated by insight and not by psychic powers. Just where in that sutta does it say the arahants questioned never achieved any of the jhanas? NOWHERE!! Just where in that sutta does the Buddha describe the arahants questioned by Susima as "Dry Insight Workers"? NOWHERE!! All arahants and Buddhas are liberated by insight! That sutta is not "proof" of anything other than the fact that enlightenment is achieved through insight and not psychic powers. Metta, James ps. Howard, I believe the question about visiting formless realms is referring to psychic powers (perhaps astral projection), not arupa jhanas. #72361 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 21, 2007 6:52 am Subject: Re: "Dry Insight" (Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight.) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/21/07 9:44:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > true, pa~n~navimutta includes both jhaanalabhi and dry insight workers. > ============================== Nina, I thank you for this detailed post. However, Nina, from the sutta teachings of the Buddha that I posted, I am content that the Buddha meant what he said when he defined right concentration as the jhanas, as follows: "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk â€" quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities â€" enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation â€" internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain â€" as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress â€" he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration."â€" SN 45.8 How one understands exactly what the Buddha meant by the jhanas, and whether "his" jhanas differed from the absorbed states of his teachers, is another matter. I DO suspect they differed. I think there is ample suttic evidence that volition, for example, is exercisable during Buddhist jhanas. An example is the Anupada Sutta, and a less controversial one is the sutta detailing the awakening of the Buddha, which I see as clearly having him direct his attention to various things while "in" the 4th jhana (e.g., past lives, "rebirthing" of beings, and so on). There is NO indication there of his leaving the jhana prior to exercising volition. There is no ambiguity in the suttas on this issue as I read them, and the commentarial views on this make no sense to me. (There are other similar suttas detailing attainment of arahantship.) What I specifically have in mind here is the following: "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details."This was the first knowledge I attained in the first watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose â€" as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain."When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings â€" who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings â€" who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views â€" with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus â€" by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human â€" I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma."This was the second knowledge I attained in the second watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose â€" as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain."When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it was actually present, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"This was the third knowledge I attained in the third watch of the night. Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose â€" as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, & resolute. But the pleasant feeling that arose in this way did not invade my mind or remain."â€" MN 36 Please note that the mind "... concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability" describes the state of mind in the 4th jhana. BTW, Nina, what comment do you have to make about the previous sutta quotes I gave - from the Paññavimutti Sutta, the Kitagiri Sutta, and Dhammapada 372? Also, what is not straightforward about the Susima Sutta denying only the formless attainments? With metta, Howard #72362 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 21, 2007 11:08 am Subject: Re: "Dry Insight" (Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight.) nilovg Hi Howard, thanks. I read the thorough study by Ven. Hennepola. He also quoted the blue lotus sutta. For me it is clear enough what the puggala pa~n`natti states and the Co. to the Susima sutta. Of course I do not deny the other suttas where the Buddha praised jhana which is high kusala, provided one attains genuine jhana. I have no time to study the other suttas you gave but will keep them, for later. Nina. Op 21-mei-2007, om 19:52 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Also, what is not straightforward about the Susima Sutta denying only > the formless attainments? #72363 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 21, 2007 7:06 am Subject: Re: "Dry Insight" (Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight.) upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/21/07 1:37:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > ps. Howard, I believe the question about visiting formless realms is > referring to psychic powers (perhaps astral projection), not arupa jhanas. > ======================= Not just Ven T, but also Bhikkhu Bodhi has this refer to the formless jhanas. With metta, Howard #72364 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 21, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanent versus inconstant. nilovg Hi Larry, Visible object always arises in a kalapa of at least seven other rupas. Visible object can impinge on the eyesense so that it can be seen, the accompanying rupas of that group cannot be seen. But the other rupas support visible object, visible object could not arise without them. All rupas of the list of twentyeight rupas are ultimate realities, paramattha dhammas, they are rupakkhandha. What we call a tree consists of kalapas of rupas. When we touch it the rupa solidity can appear and this rupa arises together in a group with the other seven inseparable rupas. Nina. Op 21-mei-2007, om 2:12 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Visible object always > manifests (if that is the right word) inseparable from at least 7 > other > kinds of rupa: 4 great elements, smell, taste, and nutritive essence. > But it is experienced as a separate rupa. Which is the ultimate > reality, > the group (kalaapa) or the singular kind of rupa? Can we analyze a > tree > as a kalaapa? #72365 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon May 21, 2007 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? nilovg Hi James and Ken, But it was marvellous! Straight to the point! Nina. Op 21-mei-2007, om 9:25 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I can't adequately reply to your post because it covers so many > subjects. #72366 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 3:19 pm Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? kenhowardau Hi Nina and James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James and Ken, > But it was marvellous! Straight to the point! > Thanks Nina. Getting straight to the point is never easy when we are discussing Dhamma, is it? Each word of a sutta, for example, has to be understood in light of the entire Dhamma - the Suttanta, the Abhidhamma and the Vinaya. Puffed up by your compliment, I went back and read my post to James again. I saw that I had written ". . . conventionally real skills that can be intentionally developed." This was on the same day I had told Phil that any idea of intentional practice was the thin end of the wedge! :-) Ultimately, there is no control, and dhammas arise purely by conditions. There is no more control when we are developing football skills than when we are developing vipassana skills. Football involves communication, effort and concentration, but it does not involve right understanding. If we would just have right understanding while we were kicking, tackling and passing, we could practice satipatthana and football at the same time. :-) Ken H #72367 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. egberdina Hi Nina, Larry, Sarah and all, On 21/05/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Herman, of course one can spoil any kind of kusala with selfishness > or superstition, but kusala is done with the pure, kusala citta. You > see how we need abhidhamma, to know our cittas. As Larry said: it can > be done with metta, and compassion. It seems to me that if one is engaged in some sort of ritual which is based in and reinforcing atta-beliefs, and there happen to be some wholesome moments in amongst all that, that it is a very long bow to suggest that the ritual is a necessary condition for that wholesomeness to arise. You spoke about < listing in > detail the different types of ghosts, their mode of generation, their > mode of being.> and find this strange. It shows cause and result, > deeds bring their results accordingly. I agree that this shows cause and result, not of what is real, but how a proliferating mind works. Recently Sarah wrote: " when we take the computer for being a 'thing' rather than visible object, hardness and so on that is experienced, there is atta-belief - no understanding of dhammas as anatta." Yet you enumerate all sorts of petas when all that is experienced is ??????. What on earth is the reality that corresponds to a peta? All based on the teachings. > Kamma-condition is one type of condition. > > Larry asked how to transfer merit: one can think of one's deceased > relatives and say their names. Please tell me what a deceased relative is other than their name and one's memory of them when they were alive. What are the realities of the present moment from which one could conceive of dead relative? People are well justified in conceiving of a computer, or a biscuit. There is seeing and touching and using a computer, or seeing and touching and eating a biscuit. But what would you say if I were to suggest to you that the biscuit I ate yesterday still exists, in another form, in another plane. That would be taking a biscuit for a thing, that would be putting an essence, a spirit in the biscuit, that is animism, a complete denial of the teachings of the Buddha. Yet I am asked to believe that the same Buddha who taught that in the seen there is only the seen etc also taugth to make offerings to thoughts of imagined spirits?????? > One does not know in which plane they are, but the Buddha said that > if someone is not in a situation to appreciate it, other deceased > persons will. This type of kusala is not wasted. It does not matter. > Also devas can appreciate other people's kusala. > I read about people leaving food or drink for ghosts, but when it is > their vipaaka to have hunger and thirst they cannot take it. Next time I read something along the lines of "there is no Lodewijk", I'll know that you'll be leaving milk and biscuits out for him anyway, when he's gone, just in case . Herman #72368 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 21, 2007 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for the reply. I was wondering how the physical mind base is referred to in the Patthana, if you have that text. Thanks Larry #72369 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 4:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: DMT Corner 2 (Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence) egberdina Hi James, On 18/05/07, buddhatrue wrote: > > > The best way to get to alerted states of consciousness leading to > wisdom and happiness is through meditation. It is more difficult and > time consuming, but the results are longer lasting. > I agree with you, for many reasons. While I know that anyone here would get an immediate realisation of anatta within 45 seconds of ingesting some DMT, I would never recommend taking that path. Because unless a realisation of anatta occurs in a framework without fear and with acceptance, it could be an extremely destructive realisation. Not even the most avid animist could deny that there is noone in control in a DMT trip, and therefore not beyond it either. For a person of the belief that they are very much in charge of their daily life, this would be a most unwelcome, shattering even, realisation. The drawback in not taking the quick, DMT, route, is the length of time the belief in a controlling self can be perpetuated by the little white lies of daily life. But as your excellent series on the contemplation of death shows, eventually all beings must face the fact that there is no them that is in control. So it needs to be said, I think, if one is going to be fearful and unaccepting of death, really, one may as well have taken the quick, DMT, route, and make a sudden, but terrifying end to the self-illusion. Herman #72370 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 5:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James and Ken, > But it was marvellous! Straight to the point! > Nina. > Op 21-mei-2007, om 9:25 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: In what way do you think it was marvellous and straight to the point? It had no point. You really think that jhana can be compared to archery and football practice? They are not even slightly comparable! However, the bit about Christian prayer is somewhat comparable so I will write another post addressing that issue- if it will make you happy! I wouldn't want the cheering section to go home disappointed! ;-)) Metta, James #72371 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 21, 2007 5:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanent versus inconstant. lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. I'm having trouble with this word "inseparable". If the rupas in a kaalapa are truly inseparable, how can one of them be experienced separately? Or is a kaalapa and the rupa that has entered the sense door two different phenomena? Also, can we say that when one rupa in a kaalapa is experienced it is usually taken as a sign of the whole kaalapa by perception (sa~n~naa)? Larry #72372 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 5:43 pm Subject: "Dry Insight" (Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight.) buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 5/21/07 1:37:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > > ps. Howard, I believe the question about visiting formless realms is > > referring to psychic powers (perhaps astral projection), not arupa jhanas. > > > ======================= > Not just Ven T, but also Bhikkhu Bodhi has this refer to the formless > jhanas. It could be the formless jhanas- I have seen the sutta translated in different ways. However, Susima seems intent on asking about psychic powers so it seems odd for him to ask about formless jhanas since the formless jhanas are not a psychic power. Metta, James #72373 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon May 21, 2007 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Herman, H: "It seems to me that if one is engaged in some sort of ritual which is based in and reinforcing atta-beliefs, and there happen to be some wholesome moments in amongst all that, that it is a very long bow to suggest that the ritual is a necessary condition for that wholesomeness to arise." L: First, any condition that conditions is a necessary condition. Second, consider Christmas. Even if you don't have a Christian background, surely you can see there is a worthwhile element of wholesome consciousness being cultivated. The better that is understood, the more fruitful the ritual is. As for self view, there is another way to look at it. In abhidhamma self view only arises with greed (lobha). It never arises with a wholesome consciousness and it doesn't even arise with hatred or mere bewilderment. Therefore, I think it would not be too far off the mark to say self view is just selfishness. It can certainly arise with all sorts of rationalizations, and it can be very subtle. But in the end it is only selfishness. Nina can educate you about what ghosts are made of;-) Larry #72374 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 5:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? egberdina Hi Sarah, > >H: Using one's critical faculties is very important, even in just reading > > Suttas on their own. > .... > S: Exactly so. If you read the sutta about Channa and come to the > conclusion that the Buddha considered the act of suicide to be > 'faultless', I don't think you are using your critical faculties. > > Similarly, in the case of the monks who committed suicide and murder - if > you read it as a big blunder on the Buddha's part because he lacked the > foresight to know the consequences of encouraging those monks to meditate > on foulness, again, I think you're selling those very critical faculties > of yours short, Herman!! > There is no similarity at all between using one's critical faculties, and uncritically accepting all and sundry commentarial explanations. Your omniscient Buddha is a commentarial contrivance, as reading the Suttas in light of the commentaries is contrived. Gotta go, it sounds like there's a peta at my back door. Herman #72375 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 6:02 pm Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? buddhatrue Hi Ken H. (and Nina), Ken: Last week I heard a radio program about Simone Weil, the author of Waiting for God. She had a practice of silently reciting the Lord's Prayer three or four times every day. When she did so she concentrated on every word, and if her concentration wavered to the slightest noticeable degree she would start again from the beginning. According to her, the practice had an astounding effect in which Christ's presence became radiantly clear. Isn't it the same with a good formal vipassana practice? James: Actually, what you describe here is more comparable to samatha practice. By concentrating on the Lord's Prayer three or four times a day, Simone suppressed the mind's defilements. By suppressing the mind's defilements, Simone experienced increased peace, joy, and bliss- which she defined as "Christ's presence". The only thing that Simone is missing is Right View to make her practice true Buddhist meditation. This may be shocking to you, Ken, but I believe that Simone is closer to the Buddha's teaching than you are. By purifying her mind of the defilements of greed, hatred, and delusion, she has given up more of self-view than you have with all of your Abhidhamma study and listening to KS on mp3. When the Buddha became enlightened, he thought that the first people he should teach the Dhamma to were those with "little dust in their eyes". He immediately thought of his former teachers who practiced meditation and achieved the formless jhanas. They had little dust in their eyes because the only thing they were missing was Right View. So, don't be so quick to judge Simone. She is missing Right View, but you, Ken, are deficient in Right View, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration (no offence intended). Metta, James #72376 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 7:11 pm Subject: "Dry Insight" (Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight.) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > ++++++++ Dear Howard http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=129 This link gives info. Robert #72377 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 21, 2007 3:33 pm Subject: Re: "Dry Insight" (Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight.) upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/21/07 8:45:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > It could be the formless jhanas- I have seen the sutta translated in > different ways. However, Susima seems intent on asking about psychic > powers so it seems odd for him to ask about formless jhanas since the > formless jhanas are not a psychic power. > ======================== Well, it could be that this sutta is simply pointing out attainments that are achievable on the way to awakening, but are not requisite. Among those are the various psychic powers and also the formless jhanas. Frequently all of these are attained along the way to awakening. Interestingly (perhaps), though the Buddha had attained the formless jhanas prior to his awakening, apparently not on the night of his awakening. Before his passing, though, 45 years later, he did shuttle through all the jhanas, 1st through last, then down to the 4th. With metta, Howard #72378 From: "Phil" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 7:44 pm Subject: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle philofillet Hi all I need your help again to track down a sutta. Came across it last week, so either in MN or AN. The gist is that some people are prone to gross forms of lust and hatred, and achieve sila through painful struggle. Other people who are not prone to gross defilements achieve jhanas. The latter point may be of interest in the jhanas discussions, but I'm primarily interested in the first point. I have heard some people teach that there is always calm with sila, and sila with all moments of kusala, and this is surely true in the beauituflly refined deep teaching of Abhidhamma, and therefore ture in the ultiamte sense, in a way that will be discovered by those who develop deep understanding. But it is equally true that the Buddha taught on a more conventional level that for people of evil tendencies (in the Dhamma sense) sila is a hard struggle. "No pain, no gain" you could say. Anyways, we can discuss this further. Can anyone provide a link to the sutta I refer to above? Thanks. Metta, Phil #72379 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon May 21, 2007 3:44 pm Subject: Re: "Dry Insight" (Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight.) upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 5/21/07 10:11:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard > http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=129 > This link gives info. > Robert > ======================= Thanks for this, Robert. However, I don't think that not experiencing the eight deliverances implies not experiencing the first four. The converse is true, though. With metta, Howard #72380 From: "Robert" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 9:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner avalo1968 Dear Friend Han, I enjoyed your description of your practice very much. There is much wisdom in the way you balance the steady energy of your practice with a letting go of thoughts of attainment. I believe it is in finding this balance that the best progress can be made. With respect and appreciation, Robert A #72381 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon May 21, 2007 10:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > There is no similarity at all between using one's critical faculties, > and uncritically accepting all and sundry commentarial explanations. > Your omniscient Buddha is a commentarial contrivance, as reading the > Suttas in light of the commentaries is contrived. .... S: I thought you'd say that which is why I made the effort to quote from a long passage for you from the Sutta Pitaka and NOT from thecommentaries. Even TG (and Tep before when he was posting) accept the Patisambhidamagga as authoritative:))). .... > Gotta go, it sounds like there's a peta at my back door. .... S: Any metta or dana? Metta, Sarah ====== #72382 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? egberdina Hi Sarah, On 19/05/07, sarah abbott wrote: > > > There is plenty of support for it in the texts too. For example, in > Patisambhidamagga (PTS, Nanamoli translation), Ch LXX111, 'Omniscient and > Unobstructed Knowledge': > > "What is the Perfect One's omniscient knowledge? > Could I trouble you for the Pali that is here translated as omniscient? > It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is > omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is > unobstructed knowledge. > > All that is past it knows,......................All that is future it > knows,...........All that is presently-arisen it knows,. I wonder why the Buddha blamed Ananda, in DN16, for not asking him to extend his life, if he already knew that Ananda wasn't going to take his hinting that the end was nigh, on that occasion? "Then, Ananda, the fault is yours. Herein have you failed, inasmuch as you were unable to grasp the plain suggestion, the significant prompting given by the Tathagata, and you did not then entreat the Tathagata to remain. For if you had done so, Ananda, twice the Tathagata might have declined, but the third time he would have consented. Therefore, Ananda, the fault is yours; herein have you failed." The Buddha knew perfectly well, according to what some attribute to him, the moment of his passing, yet it was all Ananda's fault?? Yeah, right. If this is the case, then omniscience is not able to make a difference, and whether there be omniscience or not, the result is the same. As evidenced by: "And of that, Ananda, which the Tathagata has finished with, that which he has relinquished, given up, abandoned, and rejected - his will to live on - the Tathagata's word has been spoken once for all: 'Before long the Parinibbana of the Tathagata will come about. Three months hence the Tathagata will utterly pass away.' And that the Tathagata should withdraw his words for the sake of living on - this is an impossibility". Clearly, the Buddha's omniscience is unable to effect change in the course of events. Whether there is omniscience or not, it makes not a scrap of difference. It is enough to know that for those who portray the Buddhist as omniscient, the end is set in stone, from the beginning. Herman #72383 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 11:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? egberdina Hi Sarrah, On 22/05/07, sarah abbott wrote: > > .... > > Gotta go, it sounds like there's a peta at my back door. > .... > S: Any metta or dana? > I just realised that I replied to the wrong post. My last post about the omniscience of the Buddha vis a vis DN16 was meant to be a reply to this post. Oh well. And yes, there was, and always is, much generousity and kindness on the hearing of sounds. Herman #72384 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon May 21, 2007 11:36 pm Subject: Mindfulness of Death- 8 buddhatrue Hi All, MINDFULNESS OF DEATH EIGHT WAYS OF RECOLLECTING DEATH (NUMBER 7): As to the limitedness of the extent: the extent of human life is short now. One who lives long lives a hundred years, more or less. Hence the Blessed One said: `Bhikkhus, this human life span is short. There is a new life to be gone to, there are profitable [deeds] to be done, there is the life of purity to be led. There is no not dying for the born. He who lives long lives a hundred years, more or less… `The life of human kind is short; `A wise man holds it in contempt `And acts as one whose head is burning; `Death will never fail to come' And he said further: `Bhikkhus, there was once a teacher called Araka `….' (A. iv, 136), all of which sutta should be given in full, adorned as it is with seven similes. And he said further: `Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu develops mindfulness of death thus, "Oh let me live a night and day that I may attend to the Blessed One's teaching, surely much could be done by me", and when a bhikkhu develops mindfulness of death thus, "Oh let me live a day that I may attend to the Blessed One's teaching, surely much could be done by me", and when a bhikkhu develops mindfulness of death thus, "Oh let me live as long as it takes to eat a meal that I may attend to the Blessed One's teaching, surely much could be done by me", and when a bhikkhu develops mindfulness of death thus, "Oh let me live as long as it takes to chew and swallow four or five mouthfuls that I may attend to the Blessed One's teaching, surely much could be done by me", -- these are called bhikkhus who dwell in negligence and slackly develop mindfulness of death for the destruction of cankers. `And, bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu develops mindfulness of death thus, "Oh let me live for as long as it takes to chew and swallow a single mouthful that I may attend to the Blessed One's teaching, surely much could be done by me", and when a bhikkhu develops mindfulness of death thus, "Oh let me live as long as it takes to breathe in and breathe out, or as long it takes to breathe out and breathe in that I may attend to the Blessed One's teaching, surely much could be done by me", -- these are called bhikkhus who dwell in diligence and keenly develop mindfulness of death for the destruction of cankers'. So short in fact is the extent of life that it is not certain even for as long as it takes to chew and swallow four or five mouthfuls. This is how death should be recollected as to the limitedness of the extent. To be continued….EIGHT WAYS OF RECOLLECTING DEATH (NUMBER 8). Metta, James #72385 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 12:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner buddhatrue Hi Robert and Han, I also very much liked Han's post. There is a quote by Woody Allen which I often reflect on during my daily living "80% of success is just showing up". Though it isn't from the Buddha, I very much agree with the wisdom of this saying. 80% (and usually 90%) of success in anything is just showing up. If one wants to have success in the Buddha's teaching, it isn't one's innate talents or accumulations, one's feelings, or moods, or secret techniques, which have the biggest influence, it is just showing up! If you want to have a peaceful and pure life, simply show up to the temple every month. Just by showing up you are going to be successful in the Buddha's teaching. If you want success in meditation, just show up to the meditation cushion everyday. It doesn't matter if you want to achieve jhana or if you don't want to achieve jhana, if you show up to the cushion everyday then you will achieve success. How often you show up will most determine how successful you are, prior accumulations are of a minor influence. This is where the having a good friend is the entirety of the Dhamma- because he or she will make sure you show up even if you don't feel like it!! May we all just "show up" and achieve nibbana. Metta, James #72386 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 22, 2007 12:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? sarahprocter... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > >S: There is plenty of support for it in the texts too. For example, in > > Patisambhidamagga (PTS, Nanamoli translation), Ch LXX111, 'Omniscient > and > > Unobstructed Knowledge': > > > > "What is the Perfect One's omniscient knowledge? > > > > Could I trouble you for the Pali that is here translated as omniscient? .... S: Sabba~n~nuuta (omniscient) ~naa.na.m (knowledge) ... > > It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it > is > > omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is > > unobstructed knowledge. > > > > All that is past it knows,......................All that is future it > > knows,...........All that is presently-arisen it knows,. ... > I wonder why the Buddha blamed Ananda, in DN16, for not asking him to > extend his life, <....> .... S: He fully understood conditions. Ananda's lack of a request to do so was a condition for the Buddha's life not to be extended. .... > Clearly, the Buddha's omniscience is unable to effect change in the > course of events. .... S: It made a huge difference to his teaching, wisdom and ability to help others. However, in the end, each has his own kamma and accumulations to respond accordingly. Even with his unmeasurable omniscience and compassion, he couldn't prevent rebirths in hell realms either. .... >Whether there is omniscience or not, it makes not a > scrap of difference. It is enough to know that for those who portray > the Buddhist as omniscient, the end is set in stone, from the > beginning. ... S: Well for the Buddha who fully comprehended conditions in all their complexity *according to what he put his mind to*, it was predictable how all dhammas would unfold. Metta, Sarah p.s From the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, 56:11 (TB transl): "And, monks, as long as this knowledge & vision of mine - with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present - was not pure, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk. But as soon as this knowledge & vision of mine - with its three rounds & twelve permutations concerning these four noble truths as they actually are present - was truly pure, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & commonfolk. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" ....... #72387 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 1:07 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. nilovg Hi Herman, you bring many interesting points. About no Lodewijk: I continue with that in a post to Han I am planning! Watch out! Larry said I have to educate you as to ghosts. Ha, ha, he made me laugh. Perhaps you find it still difficult to understand kamma and vipaaka, and true, it is difficult. We read in the teachings about ghosts, there is a whole book: Petavatthu, of the Khuddaka Nikaya. It may be clearer if we think in terms of naama and ruupa. It is akusala kamma that generates such rebirth-consciousness with such kinds of ruupa. (In Dutch: je krijgt het allemaal op je brood, Herman.) Also with those customs, think of the cittas: kusala cittas can help others, dead or alive to have also kusala cittas. That is why good friendship is important. We do not think of superstition, that is lobha, not kusala. H: Please tell me what a deceased relative is other than their name and one's memory of them when they were alive. What are the realities of the present moment from which one could conceive of dead relative? -------- N: there is no person now but the kusala cittas and akusala cittas of this life are not lost. They are accumulated and condiiton the cittas of future lives. There is no annihilation of life. Later sections of our Visuddhimagga study will explain more. Think of the Bodhisatta's lives when he accumulated all the perfections. There was not the same person, but there were conditions for kusala that were carried on from life to life. Nina. Op 22-mei-2007, om 1:18 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > Next time I read something along the lines of "there is no Lodewijk", > I'll know that you'll be leaving milk and biscuits out for him anyway, > when he's gone, just in case . #72388 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 22, 2007 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts to Siila Corner (1) to Phil sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > It's always good to be reminded of the deeper implications of suttas, > as you do here. But this sutta is best appreciated by beginners who are > prone to gross defilements in a way that involves conventional objects > of reflection. So, for example, thinking "if I say this to Peter, Peter > will be hurt, and that will be harmful to Peter, and to myself." .... S: I understand what you mean. I thought of you and this sutta when I was replying to Rob M yesterday: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72336 The Puggala Pannatti follows the format of AN and there's a lot of overlap. So yes, it can be read on different levels. BB is very adept at addressing different audiences and we've discussed this aspect with him before. .... > Someday, there may be condtions for deeper appreciation of the sutta, > which is all about the dhammas involved. But not for me yet. > Application of the sutta using conventional objects of reflection will > help provide conditions for that deeper understanding. > > This is consistent with the way Bhikkhu Bodhi presents the sutta in > his recorded talk, and I have confidence in Bhikkhu Bodhi's > appreciation of what is suitable for beginners. > > But always good to hear of deeper matters that may become relevant to > me later... .... S: Very diplomatic these days, Phil:-) Good to have you around. Metta, Sarah ====== #72389 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 1:30 am Subject: dana corner, atta views. nilovg Dear Han, -------- H: Now I have a very quiet life at home. I have the chance to do daana once a month. -------- N: I am glad you have the chance to meet in a temple with Burmese people and to perform dana together. Anumodana. You also write: This is good. I still kept an old post of yours about attaviews: ------------ N: But to let go of the idea of no Han, no Nina, No Lodewijk, is the outcome of a long practice of insight. What you list here are not simple approaches at all. We may understand in theory, but we cannot expect to let go of clinging to self now! So, it is a problem for everyone who is not a sotaapanna, let us recognize this. You are not alone. Life is so fragile, within a very short time we shall not be the same person again, although this life conditions the next life. When one is reborn as a human, one does not remember who one was in a previous life. But even now, life lasts as long as one moment of citta experiencing one object. I reminded Lodewijk and said: you are moving your hands lifting those envellopes with the books we are sending off now. It is kusala citta that moves the hands, that conditions rupas. We are nama and rupa. Next moment, when hurting his toe he may curse, and then he is like a different person, no longer the same. Akusala citta conditions speech sound. You said you have no goal, but our goal could be to have a little more understanding of nama and rupa. A little more understanding of the Buddha's teaching of anatta, that is already a gain. Nina. #72390 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 22, 2007 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati sarahprocter... Dear Nidhi, Don't worry about any late replies anytime. I was very glad to read your message showing how helpful you find the Abhidhamma. I fully agree with your sentiments. Exactly which books have you been reading? I forget what we recommended now. Let us know any comments/concerns/questions anytime. In your other message, you also mentioned you'd listened to the two brief extracts of discussion with A.Sujin on the homepage. Sometime, pls also take a look at www.dhammastudygroup.org and scroll down to below the archived posts for lots more edited audio discussions with her. Let us know anything you find helpful/disagree with anytime. If you have a slow connection and it's difficult for you to download them, let me know and we can send a cd in mp3 format. Also, Sukin or we can send you a hard copy of Nina's book 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' if you send me your address off-list. Thanks again for your kind messages. Metta, Sarah p.s Do you (and any other new members) have a photo to put in the DSG photo album (on the homepage)? --- wisdomcompassion wrote: > dear sarah > > i m sorry for being late in replying ur mail. i didnt have net > connection for some days and later on i thought to learn abhidhamma. i > started with two books from net and one book by ledi sayadaw (summary > of abhidhamma perhaps). i must confess abhidhamma is marvellous. at > lots of time i was speechless, and other times i was elated. <...> > its quite different from all other scriptures that i saw. its so > beautiful and yet technically correct. no other book is similar to it. > > i might find it hard to find people well versed in abhidhamma in > india, but i m sure that i would get help from people in this group in > studying it. #72391 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanent versus inconstant. gazita2002 hello Larry, Nina here are my thoughts on your quest. Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > Thanks for your reply. I'm having trouble with this word "inseparable". > If the rupas in a kaalapa are truly inseparable, how can one of them be > experienced separately? azita: As we know, at any given moment there is only ever one citta, and therefore there can only be one type of rupa being experiencec by that citta. For example, in a kaalapa there are at the very least the Four great elements - earth: hardness/softness, fire: heat/cold, wind: motion/pressure and water which apparently cannot be experienced thro a sense door, it must only 'appear' thro mind door. So, if hardness/softness is experienced, then hot/cold cannot be experienced at the same time. Likewise, if color is experienced, sound cannot be experienced simultaneously. Or is a kaalapa and the rupa that has entered > the sense door two different phenomena? azita: in this particular example my answer is no. Just because one rupa of that kaalapa is being experienced I would think that it doesnt make it two different phenomena. > > Also, can we say that when one rupa in a kaalapa is experienced it is > usually taken as a sign of the whole kaalapa by perception (sa~n~naa)? azita: that's an interesting question Larry, I honestly dont know so will leave that one for Nina or whoever knows the answer :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #72392 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 1:56 am Subject: jhaana and superpowers. nilovg Hi Howard and James, In Visuddhimagga Ch XII there is an explanation about miraculous powers. These are based on the highest ruupa jhaana, material jhaana. One has to exercise mindcontrol with the attainment of kasinas in many ways. When Susiam said that he had no superpowers it implied that he had not even attained material jhaana. As to the Kitagirisutta Howard referred to, Ven. B.B. deals with this in his intro to the Great Discourse on Causation. He deals with the meanings of freed by wisdom, pa~n~navimutta and freed both ways, ubhatobhaagavimutta. A detailed study. Did you see Rob K's link? I quote something from Survey, p. 309: < The development of samatha in past lives can be accumulated in the cycle of birth and death. It can be a condition for some people to have a presentiment of events which may take place. Someone who has developed concentration may be able to see omens and have a presentiment of events in the future. However, it should be remembered that for the accomplishment of supranatural powers samatha must be developed by mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå, so that calm grows and concentration on the meditation subject becomes firmly established, to the degree that the stages of jhåna can successively arise. It should be noted that all this is most difficult. A person who has developed concentration may have visions of future events, and some of his presentiments may come true whereas some may be wrong. His visions may be a result of his development of concentration, but they are not supranatural powers, the special qualities which are the result of the development of samatha. If one develops samatha it is already most difficult to attain even upacåra samådhi, access concentration. The reason is that when an object impinges on one of the senses or the mind-door, we usually turn to such an object with lobha, dosa or moha. Kusala citta of the level of dåna, síla or mental development arises very rarely in our daily life. The moments of kusala citta are very rare when compared to the moments of akusala cittas which usually arise very rapidly, on account of the objects impinging on the senses and the mind-door. ..> One may have paranormal sensations or mystical experiences and take this for jhana, but they may be due to experiences in former lives. In the Buddha's time there were laypeople who could attain jhaana, but one should lead a life quite removed from sense pleasures. Thus, one should live practically like a monk. This must be a real struggle. One can't have it both ways. In the end insight has to be developed, also of jhaanacittas. why not now, without jhana? I quote from Rob K's forum: (end quote) ****** Nina. . #72393 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 22, 2007 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati sarahprocter... Dear Nidhi, (Ken H & all), This is a reply to your second message to me. I'm afraid I have to snip some parts as there was a lot of detail to respond to every point. --- wisdomcompassion wrote: > yes there seems to be misunderstanding on one point that is 'effort'. > today i read the archives of the group, and also i heard the audio > clips of KS in the files section. i liked her intelligence, grace and > calm way of explaining. i also understand and appreciate her views on > effort. but i agree with her partly. what she is saying is perfectly > alright, but my opinion is that there is another side of the coin as > well. ... S: I'm glad that you express your opinion. ... > honestly speaking i felt unhappy, for the remarks i made in past, the > reason being that i realised that this group was started with a > specific interpretation of teachings of buddha. .... S: Simply put, no need to feel unhappy at all. If we don't all express our different understandings/interpretations then there's no discussion! We're all hear to share and assist each other. ... <..> > i m presenting my understanding here > first i would like to state what i understand of KS (from clips), and > other members (some archives) > > my understanding is that : > 1) the danger in exerting effort is that the self (atta) exerts the > effort, there is also possiblity of motive being escape from dukkha, > desire for wisdom,etc. so this way self strenghtens itself, and hence > makes it difficult for the person to attain that very thing (e.g. > sati, panna, wisdom, nibbana etc.) .... S: Yes, not bad at all. There is effort with almost every citta. It can be right or wrong effort. If it is effort with desire, then of course it's wrong effort. .... > 2) formal meditation and (satipatthana) inherits the danger of self > effort. .... S: In the development of satipatthana, there's no 'self effort'. So we need to learn more about what satipattana really is. Can there be satipatthana at any time other than now? Can any dhamma be known other than that which appears now? ... > > i fully agree on these two points. but i still say that there is a > third road between effort and non effort. which includes both > actually. <...> but if **by any chance** it so > happens that volition is not present and awareness of arising and > passing is there, that moment is very pure. as in that moment when > sati watches the dhammas, since volition is absent, the sankharas > cannot be made. ... S: To be honest, Nidhi, I don't really understand this. Cetana (volition)is a universal cetasika which arises with every single citta (even for an arahant). Sankhara khandha (which you referred to in part I snipped), includes all cetanas plus all other cetasikas except vedana and sanna. When there is awareness, there is effort, there is volition and many other cetasikas. All conditioned dhammas are formed up (sankhata). You may mean that in the case of the arahant, there is no more kamma - the good cittas are inoperative and won't bring any result. ... >so the dhamma so arisen dont add to anushayas. if that > happens repeatedly the anushayas come up, and if sati is there and > volition is absent that anushayas also falls away. ... S: The anusayas lie dormant and are eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment. Again, we can't say volition is absent. ... > this is the whole basis of meditation. first understanding things as > they are (knowing dhamma as it is), ... S: OK, this is why we have to be very precise about what dhammas are theoretically first. What do you understand them to be? .... > and secondly stopping the process > of making sanskaras. ... S: Sankhara means conditioned. All dhammas (except for nibbana) are conditioned to arise. No one can stop them, not even a Buddha. Only when an arahant attains to parinibbana at the end of life will there be a 'stopping' of 'the process' through the complete eradication of attachment and ignorance. ..... <..> > i have tried to put the theoritical part of my understanding here. so > what i actually mean by self effort is not effort of > volition/ego/me/mine but self as it presents itself as just awareness > and direction of mind, and my personal opinion is that one can learn > it, though its quite slow and difficult road. ... S: The main point is that it is understanding, awareness and other wholesome cetasikas which assist the citta to 'direct the mind' in a wise way. It's never you or I. ... >and these pure moments > happen only when all the three conditions "atapi", "sampjano", > "satima" of satipatthana sutta are present. ... S: I agree with this. ... >if any one of them is > missing kamma cannot be combed out. .... S: I'm not sure about this business of 'combing out kamma', Nidhi:). ... >and whatever dhamma arises are > added into the anusaya. ... S: Anusaya refers to latent tendencies for particular kinds of unwholesomeness. So even if there is no anger arising now, the anusaya for such is still there because it hasn't been eradicated. I don't think we can say 'whatever dhamma.....etc'. .... >but i surely believe that in meditation such > pure moments occur more frequently. ... S: In Pali, bhavana refers to the development of understanding. So if there is bhavana now, there is 'pure' meditation now! ... > MY INTENTION IS NOT TO OPPOSE ANYONE'S VIEWS SPECIALLY NOT OF A PERSON > WHO IS SO DEDICATED TO DHAMMA AND KNOWS SO MUCH ABHIDHAMMA, BUT I JUST > WANT TO EXPLAIN WHAT I UNDERSTAND. .... S: PLEASE DO! YOU ARE MOST WELCOME!! A pleasure to discuss dhamma with you. I'm the one who is slow replying this time! Thankyou also for your reference to the 1st sutta in SN about crossing the flood. Not over or under-exerting - the Middle Way. Lots on this under 'Floods, crossing the flood' in 'Useful Posts' if you have time to take a look and give any comments on the messages there. (It's a favourite sutta of Ken H's if I recall!) Metta, Sarah ======== #72394 From: han tun Date: Tue May 22, 2007 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner hantun1 Dear Friend Robert, Thank you very much for your kind words. They give me encouragement and a renewed faith in my practice. Respectfully, Han #72395 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts to Siila Corner (1) to Phil philofillet Hi Sarah > The Puggala Pannatti follows the format of AN and there's a lot of > overlap. So yes, it can be read on different levels. BB is very adept at > addressing different audiences and we've discussed this aspect with him > before. Interesting. Obviously the Buddha is known for teaching to different people according to how he knows their needs. Any Dhamma teacher must share that gift to some small degree. Some more than others. > S: Very diplomatic these days, Phil:-) Good to have you around. I've noticed that as well. I think it is a result of having been called the golden-haired boy by Ken. It could be said to be golden- haired boy noblesse oblige. Metta, Phil #72396 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 2:33 am Subject: impermanent versus inconstant nilovg Hi Larry and Azita, Azita answered the first part. ------------- L: If the rupas in a kaalapa are truly inseparable, how can one of them be experienced separately? Or is a kaalapa and the rupa that has entered the sense door two different phenomena? Also, can we say that when one rupa in a kaalapa is experienced it is usually taken as a sign of the whole kaalapa by perception (sa~n~naa)? -------- N: Sa~n~naa accompanies each citta and it experiences the same object as the citta, thus, in this case, the one rupa that impinges on the appropriate sensedoor. It does not experience the whole kalapa. The accompanying rupas are not experienced, nor by citta nor by sa~n~naa or any other cetasika that accompanies citta. Nina. #72397 From: han tun Date: Tue May 22, 2007 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] daana corner hantun1 Dear James (and Robert), I find many things to learn from your post. * it is just showing up! * simply show up to the temple every month! * just show up to the meditation cushion everyday! I would call this "perseverance," and it is also in line with the Buddha's last words. "Appamaadena sampaadetha"- "Strive on untiringly!" You are also very right in saying that this is where the having a good friend is the entirety of the Dhamma-because he or she will make sure you show up even if you don't feel like it!! Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #72398 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 22, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for the reply. I was wondering how the physical mind base is > referred to in the Patthana, if you have that text. Thanks ... I don't know if you have U Narada's 'Guide to Conditional Relations' (PTS). It's a very helpful introduction to the Patthana. In ch 4, under 'Dependence Condition', there's a whole section on 'Heart-base'. Here are a couple of quotes: " ' The heart-basis...the support for the mind-element and for the mind-consciousness-element': how is that to be known? (i)From scriptures and ii)from logical reasoning. i) The scripture is this: 'The materiality dependent on which the mind-element and mind-consciousness-element occur is a condition, as support-condition, for the mind-element and the mind-consciousness-element and what is associated therewith' (Pth. 1.5)......" ... S: I'm sure materiality would be ruupa here in the Patthana quote. Much further down in the text, U Narada also writes: ... "Question: Why is it that the general term 'base' expanded in Pth. is specified as 'heart-base' by the Commentators when this is not mentioned anywhere in the Pali Canon? Answer: It is clear to many that eye-consciousness, etc are dependent and based on eye-base, etc. But in the case of the material base in question, 'heart' is prefixed to it so that there will be no doubt as to which base is meant. For mind-element and mind-consciousness element are dependent on the material base which is situated within the heart and is, therefore, called 'heart-base'. Thus 'base' and 'heart-base' are one and the same." .... S: There are pages and pages on heart-base here and lots, lots more in 'U.P' under 'haddaya-vatthu' or 'heart-base'!! I have to say that I've never been very fussed about where this base is:-). What difference does it make and I'm not sure how it relates to the topic being discussed in the subject line??? Metta, Sarah ========