#72400 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 3:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. egberdina Hi Larry, On 22/05/07, LBIDD@... wrote: > > > H: "It seems to me that if one is engaged in some sort of ritual which > is based in and reinforcing atta-beliefs, and there happen to be some > wholesome moments in amongst all that, that it is a very long bow to > suggest that the ritual is a necessary condition for that wholesomeness > to arise." > > L: First, any condition that conditions is a necessary condition. I think I understand what you mean. But you appear to be saying that because an atta-based ritual can be the situation in which there is the arising of wholesomeness, the ritual must be a necessary condition. To me, it is safer to say that the ritual is irrelevant to the wholesomeness. Epiphenomenal even. > Second, consider Christmas. Even if you don't have a Christian > background, surely you can see there is a worthwhile element of > wholesome consciousness being cultivated. The better that is understood, > the more fruitful the ritual is. I'm going to be a frightful Scrooge here. There is no connection between the arising of wholesomeness and the giving and receiving of *MATERIAL* gifts. Rituals of material generousity seek to affirm the dependence of mental states on material states. And that just isn't the case. A person who says "I am happy because I gave this gift" or "I am happy because I received this gift" is mistaken, the baseline for happiness is in or around the jhanas (a non-discursive mind). > > As for self view, there is another way to look at it. In abhidhamma self > view only arises with greed (lobha). It never arises with a wholesome > consciousness and it doesn't even arise with hatred or mere > bewilderment. Therefore, I think it would not be too far off the mark to > say self view is just selfishness. It can certainly arise with all sorts > of rationalizations, and it can be very subtle. But in the end it is > only selfishness. Yes, agreed. But seeing others is also a form of self-view. Because an other is just shorthand for an other self. Seeing monks or petas as others is also a form of selfishness. > > Nina can educate you about what ghosts are made of;-) > Bring it on, Nina :-) Herman #72401 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 4:45 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 6. "And what is the wholesome? Abstention from killing living beings is wholesome; abstention from taking what is not given is wholesome; abstention from misconduct in sensual pleasures is wholesome; abstention from false speech is wholesome; abstention from malicious speech is wholesome; abstention from gossip is wholesome; uncovetousness is wholesome; non-ill will is wholesome; right view is wholesome. This is called the wholesome.*" Katama~ncaavuso kusala.m ? Paa.naatipaataa verama.nii kusala.m, adinnaadaanaa verama.nii kusala.m, kaamesu micchaacaaraa verama.nii kusala.m, musaavaadaa verama.nii kusala.m, pisu.naavaacaa verama.nii kusala.m, pharusaavaacaa verama.nii kusala.m, samphappalaapaa verama.nii kusala.m, anabhijjhaa kusala.m, abyaapaado kusala.m, sammadi.t.thi kusala.m, ida.m vuccataavuso kusala.m. 7. "And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is what is called the root of the wholesome." Katama~ncaavuso kusalamuula.m ? Alobho kusalamuula.m, adoso kusalamuula.m, amoho kusalamuula.m, ida.m vuccataavuso kusalamuula.m. 8. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome and the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome and the root of the wholesome,** he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering.*** In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma." Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m akusala.m pajaanaati, eva.m akusalamuula.m pajaanaati, eva.m kusala.m pajaanaati, eva.m kusalamuula.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa.tighaanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja.m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassanta"nkaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato, aagato ima.m saddhammanti. * Note 116. These three are called the roots of the unwholesome because they motivate all unwholesome actions... ** Note 117. These ten unwholesome courses of action are elaborated upon in MN41,12-14. ***Note 118. MA explains the disciple's understanding of these four terms by way of the Four Noble Truths thus: all the courses of action are the truth of suffering; the wholesome and the unwholesome roots are the truth of origin; the non-occurence of both actions and their roots is the truth of cessation; and the noble path that realises cessation is the truth of the path. To this extent a noble disciple at one of the first three stages has been described - one who has arrived at supramundane right view but has not yet eliminated all defilements. Sincerely, Scott. #72402 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dana corner, atta views. nilovg Dear Han, It is a deep joke. You are very honest. So long as we cling to self we do not want to let go of it, it is quite natural. We like ourselves, our identity. That is why the idea of our death are disliked by us. So difficult to lose everything, not to be the same person again in a next life. It is the truth and how hard to face the truth. We are old and of course we think daily of death, don't we? I think we need to look at James' corner mindfulness of death. Your Burmese joke is very appropriate. Kh Sujin also said: people say that they want to be liberated from the cycle, but is this true? We have no idea what that means, no idea what nibbaana means. It is best to be honest and realistic. To do what we can do now: know the present moment. That is right at hand. It does me good to talk with you. Nina. Op 22-mei-2007, om 12:18 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But you know what, Nina? Sometimes, I > foolishly ask myself whether I really want to let go > of my atta, and loose my self-identity. #72403 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 5:23 am Subject: sammaditthi studycorner nilovg Dear Scott, thank you for the texts. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome and the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome and the root of the wholesome,** he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. ------ N: Good and bad actions are conditions by way of root-condition, hetu- paccaya. If we really understand that these hetus are cetasikas it helps us not to take our actions for mine. We often forget this, and believe: I did this. It is good to consider this text. Because of the accumulated good and bad tendencies there are conditions at times for akusala kamma, at times for akusala kamma. We may so easily overlook these important words which remind us to be aware of the dhamma appearing at this moment so that eventually we can let go of the notion of self. --------- all the courses of action are the truth of suffering; the wholesome and the unwholesome roots are the truth of origin; ------- N: whatever action we perform it is only impermanent, it falls away and thus it is dukkha. The roots are the truth of the origin of dukkha: they motivate kusala kamma and akusala kamma that will produce vipaaka and thus the cycle of birth and death continues, dukkha goes on without end. Unless ignorance that conditions formations has been eradicated. Nina. #72404 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 22, 2007 1:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Herman, and TG & Tep) - In a message dated 5/22/07 1:37:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Herman, > > --- Herman Hofman wrote: > > >There is no similarity at all between using one's critical faculties, > >and uncritically accepting all and sundry commentarial explanations. > >Your omniscient Buddha is a commentarial contrivance, as reading the > >Suttas in light of the commentaries is contrived. > .... > S: I thought you'd say that which is why I made the effort to quote from a > long passage for you from the Sutta Pitaka and NOT from thecommentaries. > > Even TG (and Tep before when he was posting) accept the Patisambhidamagga > as authoritative:))). ------------------------------------------- Howard: But not I, at least not entirely. The PTSM is radically different in linguistic form from other works in the Sutta Pitaka. It also differs in content, reviewing suttas and being abhidhammic-commentarial at least in tone, and it was incorporated very late into the canon. I suspect that some of it was likely based on earlier work by Sariputta, but much was "tacked on". Some of the material, including some that I like the most, namely the objections to certain usages of 'sabhava', are, I strongly believe, very late additions that are reactive, reacting to certain late-developing substantialist tendencies in Theravada and attempting to forestall Mahayanist criticisms of such tendencies by taking a lead in the criticism. I strongly doubt that this was the word of the Buddha or even directly of Sariputta, much as I like it. Also, the listing of multiple senses of 'voidness' in the Treatise on Voidness very likely has a Mahayanist influence. However, with all that said, I'm glad you mentioned the PTSM, because in looking it over again, I do see what a wealth of material is included, and I have taken it off the shelf for some ongoing perusal. (The English translation is SO off-putting, though!) ----------------------------------------------- > .... > >Gotta go, it sounds like there's a peta at my back door. > .... > S: Any metta or dana? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================== With metta, Howard #72405 From: han tun Date: Tue May 22, 2007 5:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dana corner, atta views. hantun1 Dear Nina, You are right. It is best to be honest and realistic, and do what we can do now, and know the present moment that is right at hand. It also does me good to talk with you, and I learn many things from you, for which I am very grateful. Respectfully, Han #72406 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? scottduncan2 Dear Herman (and Sarah), H: "Could I trouble you for the Pali that is here translated as omniscient?" Scott: Until Sarah finds this, I've checked and the word seems to be 'sabba~n~nuta~naa.na.m'. H: "The Buddha knew perfectly well, according to what some attribute to him, the moment of his passing, yet it was all Ananda's fault?? Yeah, right. If this is the case, then omniscience is not able to make a difference, and whether there be omniscience or not, the result is the same...Clearly, the Buddha's omniscience is unable to effect change in the course of events. Whether there is omniscience or not, it makes not a scrap of difference. It is enough to know that for those who portray the Buddha as omniscient, the end is set in stone, from the beginning." Scott: I hope you don't mind me dropping in here, Herman, but this reminded me of our unfinished discussion of 'intersubjectivity'. Might you be merging the concept of 'omnipotence' with 'omniscience' here? Why do you think that omniscience would effect change ('make a difference') in someone else? Or, conversely, why would you think that omniscience could set something in stone? I think this is a good example of how there is no intersubjectivity ultimately. Ananda could only act or understand according to his own accumulations (or abilities or what have you). Thanks for your consideration, Sincerely, Scott. #72407 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 22, 2007 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 5/22/07 5:02:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard and James, > In Visuddhimagga Ch XII there is an explanation about miraculous > powers. These are based on the highest ruupa jhaana, material jhaana. > One has to exercise mindcontrol with the attainment of kasinas in > many ways. When Susiam said that he had no superpowers it implied > that he had not even attained material jhaana. ------------------------------------------ Howard: No it didn't, Nina. Even though the iddhi are usually associated with the 4th jhana, one may attain the 4th jhana without deveoping such powers. There has to be an intentional directing of the mind to develop those powers. Not all who attain the 4th jhana develop iddhi. ----------------------------------------- > As to the Kitagirisutta Howard referred to, Ven. B.B. deals with this > in his intro to the Great Discourse on Causation. He deals with the > meanings of freed by wisdom, pa~n~navimutta and freed both ways, > ubhatobhaagavimutta. A detailed study. Did you see Rob K's link? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, I did. :-) -------------------------------------------- > > Nina. > . > ========================= With metta, Howard #72408 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 5:45 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 1, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, It is important to know which type of citta arises at the present moment. Is it with roots or is it rootless? Is it akusala citta or kusala citta? Cittas rooted in lobha are bound to arise time and again, since lobha has been accumulated for aeons. The first javana-cittas of every living being are lobha-múla-cittas. There is clinging to all kinds of objects which present themselves through the six doors and clinging is extremely hard to eradicate. We read in the "Gradual Sayings''(Book of the Twos, Ch XI,§1): "Monks,there are these two longings hard to abandon.What two? The longing for gain and the longing for life.These are the two." Time and again we want to gain something for ourselves. When we get up in the morning and we eat breakfast we are clinging to coffee or tea, but we do not notice that there are the hetus of moha and lobha which condition the citta by way of root-condition. We cling to seeing or to visible object, but we do not notice it, we are so used to clinging. We have longing for life, we want to go on living and experiencing sense objects. That is why there are conditions for rebirth again and again. It is impossible for us not to have longing for life, only the arahat has eradicated it. We would like to have kusala citta more often, but it cannot arise without the hetus which are alobha and adosa. Without these hetus we cannot perform a wholesome deed, we cannot speak with kindness and generosity. When amoha or paññå does not accompany the kusala citta, right understanding of realities cannot be developed. There is no self who can control hetu-paccaya, root- condition; akusala hetus and sobhana hetus are anattå. With regard to root-condition, the roots, hetus, are the dhammas which condition the citta and cetasikas they accompany and also the rúpa which is produced by the citta at that moment. For instance, lobha-múla-citta, citta rooted in attachment, has two hetus: lobha, attachment, and moha, ignorance. Lobha and dosa condition the citta and its accompanying cetasikas by way of root-condition. Moreover, rúpa produced by lobha-múla-citta is also conditioned by the roots of lobha and moha. In the case of root-condition, the hetus which are the conditioning factors (the paccayas) and the dhammas they condition (the paccayupanna dhammas) arise simultaneously. The "Patthåna'' (Analytical Exposition, II,1) gives the following definition of root-condition: "The roots are related to the states [1] which are associated with roots, and the rúpa produced thereby, by root-condition." --------- 1. "States"stands for dhammas, realities; "states which are associated with roots" are the realities which arise together with the roots, namely , citta and cetasikas. ******* Nina. #72409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 5:54 am Subject: Perfections N, no 31 nilovg Dear friends, We may not like it to be mindful of akusala but from the beginning we should be sincere. Many moments of lobha in our daily life pass unnoticed. When we take a bath and stretch out our hand to the hot water tap is there lobha? We take hot water for granted, but when there isn't hot water we are annoyed and this shows that we are attached to it. When we want tea is there attachment? We may think, "I have attachment", but do we have a precise knowledge of the characteristic of lobha when it appears? Though we have a general idea of what lobha is, we do not know its characteristic precisely, when it appears. We do not know it as only a conditioned reality, it is still 'my lobha' We have to verify according to fact all the different moments of our daily life. The perfections are mentioned in a specific order and immediately after truthfulness the perfection of resolution, aditthãna, is mentioned. The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) gives the following reasons for this: a) Because truthfulness is perfected by determination, since abstinence (from falsehood) becomes perfect in one whose determination is unshakable. b) Having first shown non-deception in speech, to show next unshakable commitment to one's word, for a Bodhisatta devoted to truth proceeds to fulfil his vows of giving, etc. without wavering. c) To show, right after the veracity of knowledge, the complete accumulation of the requisites of enlightenment (bodhi-sambhara); for one who knows things as they really are deter-mines upon the requisites of enlightenment and brings them to completion by refusing to vacillate in the face of their opposites. The requisites of enlightenment are the perfections themselves and these condition one another. Truthfulness is needed with the development of all the perfections. When there is truthfulness one is faithful to ones resolution to attain the goal, one does not vacillate. It means that we have a sincere inclination to develop the perfections in order to eradicate defilements. When we, for example, perform dana or observe sila, we should not expect any gain for ourselves, such as a good name or honour, but our goal should be to have less defilements. We need truth-fulness in order to develop the perfection of wisdom. If one is faithful to ones resolution and keeps to ones aim of developing right understanding of the present reality, one does not prefer another situation to the present situation and one does not prefer another practice to mindfulness right now. "Mindfulness should be developed in daily life, in any kind of situation", we often say. Are we doing what we say? If not, we are not sincere. We should scrutinize ourselves in all sincerity, with mindfulness, in order to verify the true facts. We may be satisfied with the calm which accompanies kusala citta, we may make the accumulation of calm our aim instead of right understanding of the present reality, whatever that may be, pleasant or unpleasant. Then we are not faithful to our commitment to develop right understanding in order to eradicate defilements, we are insincere. ---------- [1] Ven. Bodhi P. 258. ******* Nina. #72410 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. nilovg Hi Howard, perhaps I was not clear. The jhanalabhi need not develop the superpowers, I agree. Susima had not developed these powers neither had he developed rupa-jhaana. You want proof of his lack of ruupajhaana: See the whole context and at the end: Note: the non-attainment of these things. Nina. Op 22-mei-2007, om 14:42 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > When Susiam said that he had no superpowers it implied > > that he had not even attained material jhaana. > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > No it didn't, Nina. Even though the iddhi are usually associated with > the 4th jhana, one may attain the 4th jhana without deveoping such > powers. > There has to be an intentional directing of the mind to develop > those powers. Not > all who attain the 4th jhana develop iddhi. #72411 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 22, 2007 6:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Posts to Siila Corner (1) to Phil jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: > Hi again Jon and all > > >> But people >> like Han who refer to simple, straight-forward suttas with >> confidence are my best Dhamma friends these days. The people who >> keep it as simple as possible. >> > > I think I wrote a silly thing here. I do appreciate Dhamma friends > who always challenge me to consider the deepest teachings as well. (And > of course Han does that as well.) I know why you said what you did, though. We think of ourselves as being here more because of some particular members than because of some others, right? ;-)), that it'd be more interesting or useful if only so and so wasn't around, or if there were more members like so and so. That would be to overlook the importance of the dynamics of a gathering such as this, in my opinion. We should be equally grateful to everyone, I think. > For some reason I am being a little > obstinate about wanting to approach the Dhamma from a shallow angle > these days. I guess that will change someday. > I think we can consider the Dhamma at more than one level (shallower vs. deeper), without either distracting from our appreciation of the other. Anyway, good to have you around again, Phil. Jon #72412 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 22, 2007 6:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Death-1 jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Okay, now you have made yourself a bit clearer. You are speaking of > the "Ten Impediments" detailed in the Vism. > Not only the ten impediments, but the other things in the list as well, namely: a/ Severing the 10 impediments (a dwelling, family, gain, class, buildings, travel, kin, affliction, books and supernormal powers) b/ Approaching the good friend, the giver of the kammatthaana c/ Choosing a kammatthaana suitable to his own temperament d/ Choosing an appropriate monastery (having regard to the 18 possible faults of a monastery) e/ Severing the lesser impediments (Vism Ch. III par. 27 to Ch. IV par. 20) > ... > Let me quote some > relevant passanges (which I wish you would do when referring to texts!): > > "This is not an impediment for everyone. It is an impediment only for > anyone whose mind is exercised about the building, etc….or whose mind > is caught up by some business connected with it. For any other it is > not an impediment." > > "But even mother and father are not an impediment for another….Even > mother and father are no impediment for one such as him, so how much > less any other family that supports him." > > "From sunrise till the first watch of the night he never breaks his > association with people….He should leave his group and wander by > himself where he is not known. This is the way his impediment is > severed." > > "If with the group's instruction and questioning he gets no > opportunity for the ascetic's duties [meditation], then that group is > an impediment for him. He should sever that impediment in this way…." > > "Building is new building work. Since one engaged in this must know > about what [material] has and has not been got by carpenters, etc., > and must see about what has and has not been done, it is always an > impediment. It should be severed in this way…" > > etc. etc..... > > Jon, these are all common-sense types of things. If one is too busy > or over-involved to meditate, then of course that is an impediment. > If you can't find the time to do it, then it won't get done! > On my reading of the relevant part of Vism (in my translation, pp 90 - 122, some 32 pages), it is a matter of a change of lifestyle rather than finding some spare time in one's busy schedule (like, by not watching the evening news on the TV). Nor do I think these things are simply common-sense and nothing more. > However, > for most of the members of this group these things are not > impediments. The members of DSG obviously spend a lot of time > studying texts and posting to this group (as there are about 25-30 > posts a day), so they obviously have a lot of time on their hands. In > my opinion, this time would be better spent actually practicing what > the Buddha taught rather than just talking about it…but that's my > opinion (and probably wouldn't win me a popularity contest ;-)). > Some of our more frequent posters are members who, as you would put it, 'actually practise what the Buddha taught'. So there goes that little theory !;-)) Jon #72413 From: connie Date: Tue May 22, 2007 7:28 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) nichiconn hi all, "Maha Pajapati", part 16 of 17: "Cattaaro lokapaalaa te, a.msehi samadhaarayu.m; sesaa sakkaadikaa devaa, kuu.taagaare samaggahu.m. "Kuu.taagaaraani sabbaani, aasu.m pa~ncasataanipi; saradaadiccava.n.naani, vissakammakataani hi. "Sabbaa taapi bhikkhuniyo, aasu.m ma~ncesu saayitaa; devaana.m khandhamaaru.lhaa, niyyanti anupubbaso. "Sabbaso chaadita.m aasi, vitaanena nabhattala.m; sataaraa candasuuraa ca, la~nchitaa kanakaamayaa. "Pa.taakaa ussitaanekaa, vitataa pupphaka~ncukaa; ogataakaasapadumaa, mahiyaa pupphamuggata.m. The four guardians of the world carried it on their shoulders. The other devas, Sakka, etc, were united at the pinnacled building. In all, there were five hundred pinnacled buildings that were the colour of the autumn sun, for they had been made by Vissakamma. All the [five hundred] bhikkhuniis were laid on their couches and mounted on the shoulder[s] of the devas who went out in due order. The surface of the sky was completely covered with a canopy made of gold that was marked with the sun and moon together with the stars. Many flags were raised. Coverings of flowers were spread out. Lotuses descended from the sky, and a flower rose from the earth. "Dissanti candasuuriyaa, pajjalanti ca taarakaa; majjha.m gatopi caadicco, na taapesi sasii yathaa. "Devaa dibbehi gandhehi, maalehi surabhiihi ca; vaaditehi ca naccehi, sa"ngiitiihi ca puujayu.m. "Naagaasuraa ca brahmaano, yathaasatti yathaabala.m; puujayi.msu ca niyyanti.m, nibbuta.m buddhamaatara.m. "Sabbaayo purato niitaa, nibbutaa sugatorasaa; gotamii niyyate pacchaa, sakkataa buddhaposikaa. "Purato devamanujaa, sanaagaasurabrahmakaa; pacchaa sasaavako buddho, puujattha.m yaati maatuyaa. The sun and the moon were to be seen, and the stars blazed forth. Like the moon, the sun did not scorch, even though it had gone to the middle [of the sky]. The devas honoured them with celestial perfumes, fragrant garlands, instrumental music, dancing, and singing. Then according to their ability and their means, the Naagas and Asuras and Brahmaas honoured the Buddha's mother, who was quenched, as she was taken out. All of those being taken out first, those legitimate offspring of the Sublime One, were quenched. And Gotamii, the honoured one who nourished the Buddha, was taken out afterwards. In front, there were devas and men together with Naagas, Asuras, and Brahmaas. In back, were the disciples of the Buddha, who went to honour his mother. "Buddhassa parinibbaana.m, nedisa.m aasi yaadisa.m; gotamiiparinibbaana.m, atevacchariya.m ahu. "Buddho buddhassa nibbaane, nopa.tiyaadi bhikkhavo; buddho gotaminibbaane, saariputtaadikaa tathaa. "Citakaani karitvaana, sabbagandhamayaani te; gandhacu.n.napaki.n.naani, jhaapayi.msu ca taa tahi.m. "Sesabhaagaani .dayhi.msu, a.t.thii sesaani sabbaso; aanando ca tadaavoca, sa.mvegajanaka.m vaco. "Gotamii nidhana.m yaataa, .dayha~ncassa sariiraka.m; sa"nketa.m buddhanibbaana.m, na cirena bhavissati. The final quenching of the Buddha was not the equal of the final quenching of Gotamii. [Hers] was a much more wonderful occasion. The Buddha did not prepare the bhikkhus for the Buddha's quenching the way the Buddha and Saariputta, etc, did for the quenching of Gotamii. They made pyres consisting of all sorts of perfume, and sweet-smelling powder was scattered there where they were cremated. Except for the bones, all the remaining parts were burned. And then Aananda said the words that produced a profound stirring: "Gotamii has gone to her end. This is the appointed place her body was burnt. It will not be long till the final quenching of the Buddha." ===tbc, connie #72414 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 22, 2007 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/22/07 9:17:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > perhaps I was not clear. The jhanalabhi need not develop the > superpowers, I agree. Susima had not developed these powers neither > had he developed rupa-jhaana. You want proof of his lack of > ruupajhaana: supranatural powers, rupa-jhana or arupa-jhana and they answered that > they had not.When Susima asked them "How is that", they answered: > "We have been freed by insight, friend Susima."> -------------------------------------------- Howard: I have carefully reread the sutta, Nina, and though I might of course just be missing it, I do not see Susima asking them whether they had attained rupa-jhana. I cannot find that at all. Can you? If yes, I'd appreciate your pointing it out to me. ---------------------------------------------- > See the whole context and at the end: whether the body is permanent or impermanent, and whether what is > impermanent is dukkha or pleasant, sukha, and whether one can take > what is impermanent and dukkha for self. The Buddha asked him the > same about the other khandhas, aggregates, and then taught him the > Dependent Origination in order and in reverse order, which means that > with the ceasing of ignorance there is the end of the cycle of birth > and death. The Buddha then asked him whether when he would know this, > he would enjoy the supramundane powers, and whether he could attain > arupa-jhana, he answered that he could not. ------------------------------------------ Howard: That's right, arupa-jhana. ------------------------------------------ > The Buddha said:> > "Here then, Susima:- this catechism and the non-attainment of these > things:-this is what we have done. "> > Note: the non-attainment of these things. > Nina. > > Op 22-mei-2007, om 14:42 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >When Susiam said that he had no superpowers it implied > >>that he had not even attained material jhaana. > > > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > >No it didn't, Nina. Even though the iddhi are usually associated with > >the 4th jhana, one may attain the 4th jhana without deveoping such > >powers. > >There has to be an intentional directing of the mind to develop > >those powers. Not > >all who attain the 4th jhana develop iddhi. > > > ========================== With metta, Howard #72415 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue May 22, 2007 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] DMT Corner 3 (Last Death is the Absolute Climax = Perfectly Pure Peace!) jonoabb Hi Herman Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > On 16/05/07, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > >> Any resemblance between sleep and death is surely superficial. >> > > Mmmm, I actually think it is a very close resemblance. I certainly > don't remember ever having been been dreamlessly asleep, or dead. > Let me see if I've understood: The fact that you don't remember (a) ever having been been dreamlessly asleep, or (b) ever having been been dead indicates to you that there's a close resemblance between the two (sleep and death). Mmmm, I'll have to think about that ;-)). >> People >> don't fear sleep because experience tells them it's a good cure for >> tiredness (thereby allowing them to pursue with renewed vigour more of >> what they're used to getting) ;-)) >> >> A person who is asleep is still enjoying the same (present) lifespan. > > Apart from the minor technicality that in dreamless sleep there is no > awareness of lifespans, I appreciate what you are saying here. In > effect, the same lifespan is a function of remembering it to be so. > A lifespan is determined by the (objective) criteria of a birth at one end and a death at the other. Span of memory (a subjective criterion) does not come into it. >> Death, on the other hand, marks the end of a lifespan, and the next >> moment the consciousness is either arising in another lifespan or it >> does not arise at all (depending on how you see it). >> > > Yes, so in a rebirth scenario, death is marked by the absence of any > memory. For a being that becomes conscious, it is becoming conscious > for the first time, and not even knowing that this is the case. > If you're talking about conventional memory, there is quite a long period between death at the end of one lifespan and the time in the new lifespan when there can be said to be memory, including the whole of the period of gestation. How do you reckon this 'memory-less' period? ;-)) >> According to the texts and other (non-Buddhist) sources, it is possible >> for memory to be trained to such a degree that it can recall beyond the >> birth-moment of this life, into previous lives. So the matter is not in >> principle unknowable, if that's what you're suggesting. >> > > Yes, agreed. And this paragraph is why I decided to put my reply in > the DMT corner. Not as denial of the proposition that memory can be > trained in a certain way (you are very avant-garde here, using the > word training :-)), because I agree that all the functions of mind are > trainable. But because hidden memory can also be evoked, or created, > chemically, eg by the use of DMT and the like, or even mechanically, > by the direct stimulation of the cerebral cortex, which requires the > drilling of a hole or two :-) > I'd be interested to know your basis for likening the memory recall in these 2 cases. I'd have thought that any chemical-induced 'memory' would be more in the nature of a hallucination. In any event, it would not be anything to do with the development of kusala. Not sure why you keep bringing up the DMT thing. Curiosity, perhaps? ;-)) Jon #72416 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 22, 2007 4:07 am Subject: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi again, Nina - A bit more, Nina: In a message dated 5/22/07 10:27:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes: > Hi Howard, > perhaps I was not clear. The jhanalabhi need not develop the > superpowers, I agree. > ========================== You had written "When Susiam said that he had no superpowers it implied that he had not even attained material jhana." My point was that not attaining superpowers does NOT imply not attaining material jhanas. Your statement says that it does. I presume, based on your reply quoted above, that this wasn't exactly what you intended to assert. But, again, with regard to your claim of "proof" of Susima allegedly having asked about attaining of rupa-jhanas, I do not see that in the sutta at all, and I'm perplexed as to your reason for saying that it is there. What were you quoting when you wrote ? Was that from a commentary, or what? With metta, Howard #72417 From: Sobhana Date: Tue May 22, 2007 9:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? shennieca Hi all, I think Right view (right understanding) is the most difficult path to follow. Right view arises when Ignorance is eradicated, right view is the "outcome / end product" of Wisdom, isn't it? But a person needs some level of mundane right view to thread the path to wisdom. When a certain stage of enlightenment is achieved, right view will arise on its own, therefore only enlightened Ariyas have the Absolute Right View, right? So, if a person is not a sotapanna yet, how can s/he be sure what the real right view is all about? When a person listens to a "real right view" Dhamma talk, maybe the conditions for Mundane right view could arise in the mind. But Supra-mundane right view can never arise by listening to a Dhamma talk or through a discussion like this, can it? Discussing supra-mundance right view is like talking about the pleasure of eating a dragon fruit when one has not even seen what a dragon fruit looks like, right? Buddhists are supposed to practise non-attachment, I don't think it is good to get attached to "our view of what Right view is and isn't", no? Can anyone recommend a good website that explains Right view in the most correct way? I'm going to read the one from accesstoinsight by Bhikkhu Bodhi, is that a good article? Weblink: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html#ch2 Thank you. Metta Elaine #72418 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue May 22, 2007 9:46 am Subject: Daana corner moellerdieter Dear Han , thanks for your sharing , I enjoyed the reading! You wrote: 'Now I have a very quiet life at home. I have the chance to do daana once a month. A temple in Wat Mahaathat allows Burmese community and Burmese monks to meet once a month. There, I offer alms food and other requisites to the monks and to the Burmese community. ' D: I have often visited Maha Chula University for monks residing in the compound of Wat Mahathat .Some of its lecturers run a center there aiming to give advise for the interested (foreign) laity , e.g. Phra Maha Dr. Somchai and Phra Maha Dr. Tuan. In case you don't know them I like to recommend a contact . Both are very kind and have numerous connections within the sangha. Thinking about Dana , the gift of Dhamma the greatest one, let me ask you whether you ever considered to give some lectures yourself ? The combination of English and good Dhamma understanding of a volunteer could be of interest for the university or the center. Assumed of course it would not disturb your quite life at home.. H: . I observe five precepts. I do meditation on-cushion and off-cushion. I do kaayaanupassanaa (aanaapaanasati) on-cushion; and kaayaanupassanaa (aanaapaanasati) and cittaanupassana off-cushion. I am not doing anything special with a view to accumulate the Ten Perfections. To be frank, I have no specific goal. I will do siila, samaadhi, and bhaavanaa to the best of my ability. The outcome of my efforts is beyond my control. If I have accumulations and conditions I may attain something. If I do not attain anything it would not bother me much. I will do my best, and the rest will be my kamma. D: quite impressive .. ;-) just out of interest as we talked about the issue of samma samadhi /Jhana before. I remember you mentioned some difficulties in concentration and wonder whether the problem concerns the stilling of the mind activity or keeping the focus on an object , respectively both? with Metta Dieter #72419 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? nilovg Hi James and Ken, Ah, but this Simone example was meant in an ironical way, as I grasp the matter. Watch out for Ken :-)) Nina. Op 22-mei-2007, om 3:02 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > The only thing that > Simone is missing is Right View to make her practice true Buddhist > meditation. #72420 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 10:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? nilovg Dear Ken, Yeah, yeah, that is it. Satipatthana is as natural as that. Every activity as usual, but in between we can 'study' nama and rupa and learn to be aware of them. As Sarah said, no matter on the surfboard, everywhere there are nama and rupa. Do you find that too? Nina. Op 22-mei-2007, om 0:19 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > If we would just have right > understanding while we were kicking, tackling and passing, we could > practice satipatthana and football at the same time. :-) #72421 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 11:36 am Subject: Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. nilovg Hi Howard, I compared translations of PTS and B.B. (p. 615, and his notes from the Co. In the sutta text as B.B. says, nothing is said about rupajhanas, only about not having arupa jhanas and abhi~n~nas. The co states about the absence of any jhana, as I quoted before, also the subco. Thus, the Co gives more details here. When looking at what the Buddha taught, this was about the khandhas, being impermanent, dukkha, non-self, and the Dependent origination. Not about the attainment of jhana. I find this significant. Nina. Op 22-mei-2007, om 17:07 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But, again, with regard to your claim of "proof" of Susima allegedly > having asked about attaining of rupa-jhanas, I do not see that in > the sutta at > all, and I'm perplexed as to your reason for saying that it is > there. What > were you quoting when you wrote attained supranatural powers, rupa-jhana or arupa-jhana and they > answered that they had > not.When Susima asked them "How is that", they answered: "We have > been freed by > insight, friend Susima.">? Was that from a commentary, or what? #72422 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 22, 2007 9:04 am Subject: Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/22/07 3:28:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I compared translations of PTS and B.B. (p. 615, and his notes from > the Co. > In the sutta text as B.B. says, nothing is said about rupajhanas, > only about not having arupa jhanas and abhi~n~nas. The co states > about the absence of any jhana, as I quoted before, also the subco. > Thus, the Co gives more details here. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Details drawn from out of the blue! There simply is no basis. I have to wonder at this, Nina. It doesn't instill confidence in the commentaries, though I do think it fair to not judge all commentaries on the basis of one - and I do not. ------------------------------------------ > When looking at what the Buddha taught, this was about the khandhas, > being impermanent, dukkha, non-self, and the Dependent origination. > Not about the attainment of jhana. I find this significant. > Nina. > Op 22-mei-2007, om 17:07 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >But, again, with regard to your claim of "proof" of Susima allegedly > >having asked about attaining of rupa-jhanas, I do not see that in > >the sutta at > >all, and I'm perplexed as to your reason for saying that it is > >there. What > >were you quoting when you wrote >attained supranatural powers, rupa-jhana or arupa-jhana and they > >answered that they had > >not.When Susima asked them "How is that", they answered: "We have > >been freed by > >insight, friend Susima.">? Was that from a commentary, or what? > ======================== Thank you for looking into this further, Nina, and presenting your findings in a straightforward way. With metta, Howard #72423 From: Sobhana Date: Tue May 22, 2007 1:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? shennieca Hello Nina, Nina: Yeah, yeah, that is it. Satipatthana is as natural as that. Every activity as usual, but in between we can 'study' nama and rupa and learn to be aware of them. As Sarah said, no matter on the surfboard, everywhere there are nama and rupa. Do you find that too? Elaine: *How* can we be aware of Nama and rupa during daily activities? What method do you use? A long time ago, when I went to an intensive meditation retreat, the instruction I received was to do my daily activities, e.g. walking, eating, washing hands, etc.. in a very very slow manner. I asked my meditation teacher (Bhante Sujiva), why do we need to do everything in slow motion and he gave a simile. He said, for example the ceiling fan, when it is moving very fast, we see the blade as one single blade, but when the movement of the fan is slowed down, we could see that the fan is actually made up of 3 blades. I gather from there that, it is possible to "observe" nama and rupa (and other khandhas) when the motions of the nama is slow, because the mind (nama) can observe the rupa better when the rupa moves slower. I suppose, a very mindful person can see nama-rupa while playing soccer, but it is not a common way the Buddha taught us how. Daily mindfulness can never be as good as meditative mindfulness, although it is better to be mindful (while playing soccer) than not being mindful at all. But saying that we can observe nama-rupa while playing soccer is like saying, we can see the 3 blades of the fan while the fan is moving very fast, unless the person has the divine eye, it is not very possible. What is your opinion Nina? Looking forward to your replies. Thank you. Metta Elaine #72424 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 2:07 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence kenhowardau Hi Sarah (Herman and Larry), ----------- <. . .> S: > I have to say that I've never been very fussed about where this base is:-). What difference does it make and I'm not sure how it relates to the topic being discussed in the subject line??? ------------ I think Herman brought it up this time. If remember correctly his point was that, if the Commentaries could be wrong about this, they could be wrong about other things too. Actually, I think that is the point behind 99% of DSG's disagreements - if the texts can be wrong about various little pictures, they can wrong about the big picture too. But I digress. I feel the same way you do (not fussed) about where the mind-base is located. Just recently, I saw a television science show report that suggested the heart might actually be the centre of consciousness. It didn't affect me one way or the other. It didn't change my feelings about the Dhamma and the ancient texts in the least! The show was a very reputable one (not of the sensation-seeking kind). It followed the lives of several heart-transplant recipients who had reported some inexplicable developments. They were experiencing someone else's memories and someone else's personality traits. The families of the heart donors were interviewed, and, lo and behold, they were the memories and personality traits of the donors! So it is possible that science might one day agree with the commentaries on this point. But so what? It can't affect the truth about namas and rupas. Ken H #72425 From: han tun Date: Tue May 22, 2007 2:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana corner hantun1 Dear Dieter, D: I have often visited Maha Chula University for monks residing in the compound of Wat Mahathat .Some of its lecturers run a center there aiming to give advise for the interested (foreign) laity , e.g. Phra Maha Dr. Somchai and Phra Maha Dr. Tuan. In case you don't know them I like to recommend a contact. Both are very kind and have numerous connections within the sangha. Han: I take note of it, and will see if I can have the chance to meet those lecturers. -------------------- D: Thinking about Dana, the gift of Dhamma the greatest one, let me ask you whether you ever considered to give some lectures yourself? The combination of English and good Dhamma understanding of a volunteer could be of interest for the university or the center. Assumed of course it would not disturb your quite life at home.. Han: I have never given any lectures (of any kind) myself either in Burmese or in English. I don't know whether I can do it. Some people are gifted for that, but maybe I am not one of them. -------------------- D: I remember you mentioned some difficulties in concentration and wonder whether the problem concerns the stilling of the mind activity or keeping the focus on an object, respectively both? Han: I think the two are connected. For example, if I can keep the focus on the breath touching the nostril, my mind becomes stilled. And if my mind is still, I can keep the focus on the breath. Yes, I still find the difficulty. But it is not always, sometimes the concentration is good, sometimes it is not. Thank you very much for reading my post. Respectfully, Han #72426 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 3:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] sammaditthi studycorner egberdina Hi Nina, On 22/05/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > N: Good and bad actions are conditions by way of root-condition, hetu- > paccaya. If we really understand that these hetus are cetasikas it > helps us not to take our actions for mine. We often forget this, and > believe: I did this. It is good to consider this text. Because of the > accumulated good and bad tendencies there are conditions at times for > *akusala kamma, at times for akusala kamma*. We may so easily overlook > these important words which remind us to be aware of the dhamma > appearing at this moment so that eventually we can let go of the > notion of self. > --------- A bit of a Freudian slip (between the asterisks), perhaps? > ------- > N: whatever action we perform it is only impermanent, it falls away > and thus it is dukkha. In the light of what you wrote above, might it be clearer and more consistent to say, whatever action is performed? Herman #72427 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 3:24 pm Subject: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 5/22/07 3:28:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > I compared translations of PTS and B.B. (p. 615, and his notes from > > the Co. > > In the sutta text as B.B. says, nothing is said about rupajhanas, > > only about not having arupa jhanas and abhi~n~nas. The co states > > about the absence of any jhana, as I quoted before, also the subco. > > Thus, the Co gives more details here. > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Details drawn from out of the blue! There simply is no basis. I have > to wonder at this, Nina. Hi Howard, I think you have missed Nina's point. She wrote: > When looking at what the Buddha taught, this was about the khandhas, being impermanent, dukkha, non-self, and the Dependent origination. Not about the attainment of jhana. I find this significant. > (end quote) So the arahants who composed the ancient commentaries were explaining this sutta in the context of the entire Dhamma. They were not taking a few words out of context and concluding "Aha, so mundane jhana is required for vipassana after all!" Ken H It doesn't instill confidence in the commentaries, > though I do think it fair to not judge all commentaries on the basis of one - and > I do not. > #72428 From: "sukinder" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 10:26 am Subject: RE: [dsg] daana corner sukinderpal Dear Han (and Robert), You wrote: Thank you very much for your kind words. They give me encouragement and a renewed faith in my practice. ============== In the above by 'faith' do you mean 'saddha'? If so what is the object of the saddha at the moment? I'm asking because I wish to learn more about saddha and think that lobha is often mistaken for it. Thanks in advance. Metta, Sukinder --- Robert com> wrote: > Dear Friend Han, > > I enjoyed your description of your practice very > much. There is > much wisdom in the way you balance the steady energy > of your > practice with a letting go of thoughts of > attainment. I believe it > is in finding this balance that the best progress > can be made. > #72429 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 22, 2007 4:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for your reply. I'm guessing you don't have the Patthana in Pali. What I was interested in is, if "mano vatthu" is incorrect, then what term is used in the Patthana. It couldn't be "hadaya vatthu" because that term came into use in the later commentaries. In Ven. Nyanatiloka's "Guide Through The Abhidhamma-Pitaka" he uses "physical organ of mind" in the section on the conditioning of nama and rupa in the Patthana, but he doesn't give the Pali. A few thoughts on situating the mind support in the heart, this also has happened in the west. There is a long tradition of designating the heart as the seat of mental feeling as well as emotions such as love, hate, generosity, etc. Larry #72430 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 4:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? egberdina Hi Scott, On 22/05/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > > Scott: I hope you don't mind me dropping in here, Herman, but this > reminded me of our unfinished discussion of 'intersubjectivity'. > Might you be merging the concept of 'omnipotence' with 'omniscience' > here? Why do you think that omniscience would effect change ('make a > difference') in someone else? Or, conversely, why would you think > that omniscience could set something in stone? Thanks for the Pali, I'll check it out later. Knowing something changes people's behaviour. A person who was unaware that fire was hot might walk straight into it, while a person who knows that fire is hot, would avoid it. Knowledge is basically a feedback loop that adapts people to their environment. In the case of the Buddha, however, knowing everything, he would have known that Ananda wasn't going to take his hint. If I give a hint to my kids and they don't take it, I become more direct. Not the Buddha. Knowing the future could not alter his behaviour. It appears whatever is done, is what is done. If omniscience was possible (which I reject, of course), it would follow that nothing of an undetermined nature could intervene. > I think this is a good example of how there is no intersubjectivity > ultimately. Ananda could only act or understand according to his own > accumulations (or abilities or what have you). > I think if the Buddha had said something more direct, as in, hey Ananda, I'm thinking of throwing in the towel, I suspect Ananda's conditioning would have pricked his ears up. Herman #72431 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue May 22, 2007 12:47 pm Subject: Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, Ken - In a message dated 5/22/07 6:25:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I think you have missed Nina's point. She wrote: > > >When looking at what the Buddha taught, this was about the > khandhas, being impermanent, dukkha, non-self, and the Dependent > origination. Not about the attainment of jhana. I find this > significant. >(end quote) > > So the arahants who composed the ancient commentaries were explaining > this sutta in the context of the entire Dhamma. They were not taking > a few words out of context and concluding "Aha, so mundane jhana is > required for vipassana after all!" > > Ken H > > > ======================== No, I didn't miss anything.The commentary speaks about not attaining the rupa-jhanas when that was not in the sutta at all. That was MY point. With metta, Howard #72432 From: han tun Date: Tue May 22, 2007 4:53 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] daana corner hantun1 Dear Sukinder, I just used the term "faith" loosely. By "faith" here I mean "confidence." I have more confidence in my practice. Respectfully, Han --- sukinder wrote: > Dear Han (and Robert), > In the above by 'faith' do you mean 'saddha'? If so > what is the object of > the saddha at the moment? I'm asking because I wish > to learn more about > saddha and think that lobha is often mistaken for > it. #72433 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 22, 2007 5:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Herman, H: "To me, it is safer to say that the ritual is irrelevant to the wholesomeness. Epiphenomenal even." L: My thinking is that a phenomenon partakes of everything that conditions it. A wood fire on a sunny day in Herman's back yard is all of that. But more importantly, the whole point of any ritual is to condition the arising of wholesome consciousness, imo. H: "I'm going to be a frightful Scrooge here. There is no connection between the arising of wholesomeness and the giving and receiving of *MATERIAL* gifts. Rituals of material generosity seek to affirm the dependence of mental states on material states. And that just isn't the case. A person who says "I am happy because I gave this gift" or "I am happy because I received this gift" is mistaken, the baseline for happiness is in or around the jhanas (a non-discursive mind)." L: Isn't there any family ritual that you have performed that conditioned the arising of a wholesome consciousness? L: ... "But in the end it is only selfishness." H: "Yes, agreed. But seeing others is also a form of self-view. Because an other is just shorthand for an other self. Seeing monks or petas as others is also a form of selfishness." L: I agree that seeing others as "others" is self view, or perhaps conceit. But I don't think mere identity is really self view. Above I said the purpose of ritual is to condition the arising of wholesome consciousness, but as we all know any ritual also usually conditions the arising of unwholesome consciousness. At the end of any day we might look back and ask, when was there wholesome consciousness. Most likely not very often. Even a little is very welcome. Larry #72434 From: "sukinder" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 12:06 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] daana corner sukinderpal Dear Han, You replied: I just used the term "faith" loosely. By "faith" here I mean "confidence." I have more confidence in my practice. It is still not clear. You now use 'confidence' which is the usual translation for saddha. If it is in fact not saddha that you mean, what is the nature of this 'confidence' and what do you have in mind when you say 'my practice'? With respect, Sukinder #72435 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 22, 2007 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanent versus inconstant. lbidd2 Hi Azita, Nice to talk to you. A: "As we know, at any given moment there is only ever one citta, and therefore there can only be one type of rupa being experienced by that citta." L: Agreed, but this is a deception. One rupa is only part of the reality of the kalaapa. We have two realities here, the kalaapa and the single rupa. The single rupa can't be the same rupa that is inseparable from the kalaapa. Why can't we say the single rupa is a facsimile of the inseparable rupa? The rule is that no rupa manifests by itself. Larry #72436 From: han tun Date: Tue May 22, 2007 6:25 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] daana corner hantun1 Dear Sukinder, Here, I used the word "confidence" as in ordinary English usage, not as a translation from Pali word. Just like "self-confidence". How do you understand self-confidence? That was exactly how I felt - increased self-confidence in whatever I was doing. "My practice" means what I am doing at present, which I had mentioned in my previous post. In case you missed my previous post, the following is what I had written. "Now I have a very quiet life at home. I have the chance to do daana once a month. A temple in Wat Mahaathat allows Burmese community and Burmese monks to meet once a month. There, I offer alms food and other requisites to the monks and to the Burmese community. I observe five precepts. I do meditation on-cushion and off-cushion. I do kaayaanupassanaa (aanaapaanasati) on-cushion; and kaayaanupassanaa (aanaapaanasati) and cittaanupassana off-cushion. I am not doing anything special with a view to accumulate the Ten Perfections. To be frank, I have no specific goal. I will do siila, samaadhi, and bhaavanaa to the best of my ability. The outcome of my efforts is beyond my control. If I have accumulations and conditions I may attain something. If I do not attain anything it would not bother me much. I will do my best, and the rest will be my kamma." Respectfully, Han --- sukinder wrote: > Dear Han, > > > > You replied: > I just used the term "faith" loosely. > By "faith" here I mean "confidence." > I have more confidence in my practice. > > > > It is still not clear. You now use 'confidence' > which is the usual > translation for saddha. If it is in fact not saddha > that you mean, what is > the nature of this 'confidence' and what do you have > in mind when you say > 'my practice'? > > #72437 From: "m_nease" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 6:32 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner m_nease Hi Phil, Please excuse the tardy reply--my internet time is somewhat limited at the moment-- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > Ok. I tend to have more confidence in BB than in TB because I think > the latter is more passsionate about teaching meditation (I love his > talks, personally, very helfpul for beginners) while the former seems > more of an academic in his approach to the texts, therefore being more > objective, I assume. It seems to me that each tends to editorialize somewhat--TB more in his selection of texts as well as their translations; BB more in his comments (I think his translations are more rigorous). I agree that TB is passionate in his views (if I may call them that) and often very moving. I must say I do have misgivings about 'passion' in this regard. > But nevermind. Agreed--I don't feel competent to argue the merits of either. > Personally, I think the sutta passage in question is > clear enough in making it clear that supramundane *right* view is that > of the ariyan and is clearly compared to the right view of worldlings > who do not gain liberation from samsara through their right view, but > at least do not fall into gross wrong view that leads them into evil > deeds. An interesting way of putting it. Of course (I think) it is the arising of supramundane right view that creates the distinction between the worldling and the ariyan. I wonder though, in the worldling's right view, is there a mundane view that is merely intellectual and another that is transformative (by this I mean insight into one of the four bases of insight, but short of the path)? This is not yet clear to me from the texts (or, of course, from experience). > It is this latter right view that interests me, personally. The > wrong view of *not* having the right view of the ariyan? Not a concern. Agreed-- > I don't think that this supramundane right view can be attained by > thinking about it. Certainly not--and also not by NOT thinking about it. There are, though (as I understand it), thoughts that are "conducive to...growth in intuitive wisdom...[and] nibbaana": "The bodhisatta realized that these lead neither to self-hurt, nor to the hurt of others, nor to the hurt of both, but that they are for "growth in intuitive wisdom", that they are "not associated with distress", "conducive to nibbana ". We read about kusala vitakka: "...Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on the thought of renunciation he ejects the thought of sense-pleasures: if he makes much of the thought of renunciation, his mind inclines to the thought of renunciation. Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on the thought of non-malevolence he ejects the thought of malevolence... Monks, if a monk ponder and reflect much on the thought of non-harming, he ejects the thought of harming; if he makes much of the thought of non-harming his mind inclines to the thought of non-harming..." Quoted from Majjhima Nikaaya I. 2. 9. Dvedhaavitakkasutta.m in Nina's 'Cetasikas'. > Nice talking with you as always, Mike. My pleasure as always, Phil. mike #72438 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 22, 2007 6:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] impermanent versus inconstant lbidd2 Hi Nina, N: "Sa~n~naa accompanies each citta and it experiences the same object as the citta, thus, in this case, the one rupa that impinges on the appropriate sensedoor. It does not experience the whole kalapa. The accompanying rupas are not experienced, nor by citta nor by sa~n~naa or any other cetasika that accompanies citta." L: Good point. Maybe sa~n~naa remembers the other rupas in the kalaapa from previous consciousnesses and takes the present rupa as a sign of the whole. When we see a flower we know there is more to it than visible object. Perhaps this is why it is so difficult to see _only_ visible data. Even with wisdom we know there is more to it. Larry #72439 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 6:38 pm Subject: Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle philofillet Hi all Still trying to find this sutta, or passage from sutta. Maybe if I try to dredge up some more of what I rememeber from it it will jog someone's memory. It was one of the "four kinds of people" variety, I think. One kind of person is born into the pain of greed and lust, and in the pain of greed and lust attains the holy life. Something like that. The other person is not born with such tendencies, and achievees jhanas. The sense is that achieving the holy life is not such a struggle for this person who is born with wholeomse roots/tendencies. Something like that. I'm sure I'll come across it one of these days, but if this rings a bell....thanks. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi all > > I need your help again to track down a sutta. Came across it last > week, so either in MN or AN. The gist is that some people are prone > to gross forms of lust and hatred, and achieve sila through painful > struggle. Other people who are not prone to gross defilements > achieve jhanas. The latter point may be of interest in the jhanas > discussions, but I'm primarily interested in the first point. #72440 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue May 22, 2007 6:42 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,155 Vism.XVII,156 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 155. Now: The fine material gods have thirty nine; The apparitional and moisture-born Have seventy material instances At most, and they have thirty at the least. 156. Firstly, among the fine-material Brahmaas of apparitional generation there arise together with rebirth-linking consciousness thirty and also nine material instances with the four groups, namely, the decads of the eye, ear, and physical basis, and the ennead of life. But leaving the fine-material Brahmaas aside, among the others of apparitional generation and those of the moisture-born generation there are seventy instances of materiality at the most with the decads of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, physical basis and sex. And these are invariably to be found among deities [of the sense sphere]. Now the group of material states comprising the ten material instances, namely, colour, odour, flavour, nutritive essence, and the four primary elements, with eye sensitivity and life, are called the 'eye decad'. The remaining [groups of material states] should be understood in the same way. ************************ 155. tattha, ti.msa nava ceva ruupiisu, sattati ukka.msatotha ruupaani. sa.msedupapaatayonisu, atha vaa avaka.msato ti.msa.. 156. ruupiibrahmesu taava opapaatikayonikesu cakkhusotavatthudasakaana.m jiivitanavakassa caati catunna.m kalaapaana.m vasena ti.msa ca nava ca pa.tisandhivi~n~naa.nena saha ruupaani uppajjanti. ruupiibrahme pana .thapetvaa a~n~nesu sa.msedajaopapaatikayonikesu ukka.msato cakkhusotaghaanajivhaakaayavatthubhaavadasakaana.m vasena sattati, taani ca nicca.m devesu. tattha va.n.no gandho raso ojaa catasso caapi dhaatuyo cakkhupasaado jiivitanti aya.m dasaruupaparimaa.no ruupapu~njo cakkhudasako naama. eva.m sesaa veditabbaa. #72441 From: han tun Date: Tue May 22, 2007 7:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle hantun1 Dear Phil, I wonder whether the sutta you are looking for is the following. This translation is from THE TIPITAKA web-site. I prefer Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation with the heading of "Four Modes of Progress." But I do not have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation in electronic version. -------------------- AN IV. 162. Vitthaara Sutta Bhikkhus, these are the four means of reaching the goal. What four? A difficult means and slow realization, a difficult means and quick realization, a pleasant means and slow realization and a pleasant means and quick realization. Bhikkhus, what is the difficult means and slow realization? Here, bhikkhus, a certain one by nature is greedy and suffers constantly on account of greed, by nature is hateful and suffers constantly on account of hatefulness, by nature is deluded and suffers constantly on account of delusion. His faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are blunt as a result he realizes the destruction of desires slowly with successive leading. Bhikkhus, to this is said the difficult means and slow realization. Bhikkhus, what is the difficult means and quick realization? Here, bhikkhus, a certain one by nature is greedy and suffers constantly on account of greed, by nature is hateful and suffers constantly on account of hatefulness, by nature is deluded and suffers constatnly on account of delusion. His faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are sharp as a result he realizes the destruction of desires quickly with successive leading. Bhikkhus, to this is said the difficult means and quick realization. Bhikkhus, what is the pleasant means and slow realization? Here, bhikkhus, a certain one by nature is not greedy and does not suffer constantly on account of greed, by nature is not hateful and does not suffer constantly on account of hatefulness, by nature is not deluded and does not suffer constantly on account of delusion. His faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are blunt as a result he realizes the destruction of desires slowly with successive leading. Bhikkhus, to this is said the pleasant means and slow realization. Bhikkhus, what is the pleasant means and quick realization? Here, bhikkhus, a certain one by nature is not greedy and does not suffer constantly on account of greed, by nature is not hateful and does not suffer constantly on account of hatefulness, by nature is not deluded and does not suffer constantly on account of delusion. His faculties of faith, effort, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom are sharp as a result he realizes the destruction of desires quickly with successive leading. Bhikkhus, to this is said the pleasant means and quick realization. Bhikkhus, these are the four ways of reaching the goal. -------------------- Respectfully, Han #72442 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 8:06 pm Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sobhana wrote: > > > I gather from there that, it is possible to "observe" > nama and rupa (and other khandhas) when the motions of > the nama is slow, because the mind (nama) can observe > the rupa better when the rupa moves slower. I suppose, > a very mindful person can see nama-rupa while playing > soccer, but it is not a common way the Buddha taught > us how. Daily mindfulness can never be as good as > meditative mindfulness, although it is better to be > mindful (while playing soccer) than not being mindful > at all. > > But saying that we can observe nama-rupa while playing > soccer is like saying, we can see the 3 blades of the > fan while the fan is moving very fast, unless the > person has the divine eye, it is not very possible. > _________ Dear Elaine, What makes you think namas and rupas slow down(I mean apart from hearing someone say that)? How quickly or slowly, roughly, do you think they arise and disappear. Robert #72443 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 8:21 pm Subject: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 5/22/07 6:25:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > kenhowa@... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard, > > > > I think you have missed Nina's point. She wrote: > > > > >When looking at what the Buddha taught, this was about the > > khandhas, being impermanent, dukkha, non-self, and the Dependent > > origination. Not about the attainment of jhana. I find this > > significant. >(end quote) > > > > So the arahants who composed the ancient commentaries were explaining > > this sutta in the context of the entire Dhamma. They were not taking > > a few words out of context and concluding "Aha, so mundane jhana is > > required for vipassana after all!" > > > > Ken H > > > > > > > ======================== > No, I didn't miss anything.The commentary speaks about not attaining > the rupa-jhanas when that was not in the sutta at all. That was MY point. > > ++++++ Dear Howard, Maybe if you give us some more details of why you think the ancient Commentary was wrong. Did the monks make up the story, for what reason? Robert #72444 From: "Phil" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 8:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle philofillet Hi Han Thank you, a very interesting sutta. But not the one I was looking for. It'll come up in my reading, I'm sure. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Phil, > > I wonder whether the sutta you are looking for is the > following. This translation is from THE TIPITAKA > web-site. I prefer Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation with > the heading of "Four Modes of Progress.?EBut I do not > have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation in electronic > version. > > -------------------- > > AN IV. 162. Vitthaara Sutta > > Bhikkhus, these are the four means of reaching the > goal. What four? > > A difficult means and slow realization, a difficult > means and quick realization, a pleasant means and slow > realization and a pleasant means and quick > realization. > #72445 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 8:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for your reply: H: "If omniscience was possible (which I reject, of course), it would follow that nothing of an undetermined nature could intervene." Scott: How would this follow? What is something of an 'undetermined nature' and how do you imagine that it might 'intervene'? All aspects of samsaara are conditioned. I don't think, based on my knowledge to this date, that there is anything taught in the Dhamma that would equate to an intervention of something undetermined. H: "I think if the Buddha had said something more direct, as in, hey Ananda, I'm thinking of throwing in the towel, I suspect Ananda's conditioning would have pricked his ears up." Scott: He knew Ananda's state of being, as it were. Check this out, from the Sammhavinodanii, pp.146-7: "'Ten are these Tathaagata Powers of the Tathaagata'...(1) in the first place the Tathaagata sees with the knowledge of the possible and the impossible the absence of the obstruction by defilement which is the possibility (reason) for the attaining or the impossibility (non-reason) for the non-attaining of the destruction of cankers by teachable beings; this is owing to seeing the possibility (thaana) for mundane right view and owing to seeing the absence of possibility for assured wrong view. (2) Then with the knowledge of kamma result he sees the absence in them of obstructions by kamma result; this is owing to seeing a rebirth-linking with three root causes. (3) With the knowledge of ways wheresoever going, he sees the absence of obstruction by kamma; this is owing to seeing the absence of kamma with immediate effect. (4) With the knowledge of the numerous and varying elements, he sees the specific habit (temperament) of those who are thus free from obstructions for the purpose of teaching the Law suitable [to their habit]; this is owing to seeing the diversity of the elements. (5) Then with the knowledge of different resolves, he sees their resolves; this is for the purpose of teaching the Law according to their disposition even if they have not accepted the means. (6) Then, in order to teach the Law according to the ability and capacity of those whose resolves have been seen in this way, with the knowledge of the disposition of the faculties, he sees the disposition of the faculties; this is owing to seeing the keen and dull state of faith, etc. (7) But owing to disposition of the faculties being fully understood thus, if they are far off then owing to mastery of the first jhaana, etc., he quickly goes to them by means of his distinction in miraculous power; and having gone, seeing (8) the state of their former existences with the knowledge of the recollection of former lives, and (9) the present distinction of consciousness with the knowledge of the penetration of others' minds to be reached owing to the power of the Divine Eye; (10) with the power of the knowledge of destruction of the cankers, he teaches the Law for the destruction of cankers owing to being rid of delusion about the way that leads to the destruction of the cankers..." Scott: This 'omniscience' is not, in my opinion, all encompassing. It is systematic and based on a sequential adverting to various dhammas, as described above. I'll look for more on this, since I'm not sure of what I just said. Later, man. Sincerely, Scott. #72446 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 8:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Mindfulness of Death-1 buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi James > > buddhatrue wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > > Okay, now you have made yourself a bit clearer. You are speaking of > > the "Ten Impediments" detailed in the Vism. > > > > Not only the ten impediments, but the other things in the list as well, > namely: > a/ Severing the 10 impediments (a dwelling, family, gain, class, > buildings, travel, kin, affliction, books and supernormal powers) > b/ Approaching the good friend, the giver of the kammatthaana > c/ Choosing a kammatthaana suitable to his own temperament > d/ Choosing an appropriate monastery (having regard to the 18 possible > faults of a monastery) > e/ Severing the lesser impediments > (Vism Ch. III par. 27 to Ch. IV par. 20) James: What about these things? All you are doing is paraphrasing the beginning of the Vism. and saying "Look, look at these things..." as if that is somehow supposed to prove something. It doesn't prove anything other than you know how to paraphrase. What is your point? Please, get to your point and do so clearly with direct quotes (not paraphrases) or I am just going to drop out of this thread. I don't want to keep going round and round on this issue. > > > ... > > Let me quote some > > relevant passanges (which I wish you would do when referring to texts!): > > > > "This is not an impediment for everyone. It is an impediment only for > > anyone whose mind is exercised about the building, etc….or whose mind > > is caught up by some business connected with it. For any other it is > > not an impediment." > > > > "But even mother and father are not an impediment for another….Even > > mother and father are no impediment for one such as him, so how much > > less any other family that supports him." > > > > "From sunrise till the first watch of the night he never breaks his > > association with people….He should leave his group and wander by > > himself where he is not known. This is the way his impediment is > > severed." > > > > "If with the group's instruction and questioning he gets no > > opportunity for the ascetic's duties [meditation], then that group is > > an impediment for him. He should sever that impediment in this way…." > > > > "Building is new building work. Since one engaged in this must know > > about what [material] has and has not been got by carpenters, etc., > > and must see about what has and has not been done, it is always an > > impediment. It should be severed in this way…" > > > > etc. etc..... > > > > Jon, these are all common-sense types of things. If one is too busy > > or over-involved to meditate, then of course that is an impediment. > > If you can't find the time to do it, then it won't get done! > > > > On my reading of the relevant part of Vism (in my translation, pp 90 - > 122, some 32 pages), it is a matter of a change of lifestyle rather than > finding some spare time in one's busy schedule (like, by not watching > the evening news on the TV). Nor do I think these things are simply > common-sense and nothing more. James: Well, then I will ask you the same thing I asked Sarah: Can you read? Can you read and understand what you read? You haven't proven yourself to be an expert in these matters so I don't really care about your "reading of the material" (in other words, your opinion). Give me some specific quotes that point out your concerns and then we can go from there. Otherwise, you just keep repeating the same thing over and over. > > > However, > > for most of the members of this group these things are not > > impediments. The members of DSG obviously spend a lot of time > > studying texts and posting to this group (as there are about 25-30 > > posts a day), so they obviously have a lot of time on their hands. In > > my opinion, this time would be better spent actually practicing what > > the Buddha taught rather than just talking about it…but that's my > > opinion (and probably wouldn't win me a popularity contest ;-)). > > > > Some of our more frequent posters are members who, as you would put it, > 'actually practise what the Buddha taught'. So there goes that little > theory !;-)) James: Well, I was just making a little generalization- no big deal. My point is that if the members have enough time to post frequently to DSG, then they have enough time to practice meditation. They aren't so busy that they just have to settle for the rare instances of sati which arise during a busy day. > > Jon > Metta, James #72447 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 8:53 pm Subject: Re: jhaana and superpowers. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard and James, > In Visuddhimagga Ch XII there is an explanation about miraculous > powers. These are based on the highest ruupa jhaana, material jhaana. > One has to exercise mindcontrol with the attainment of kasinas in > many ways. When Susiam said that he had no superpowers it implied > that he had not even attained material jhaana. I have followed this thread and I concur with what Howard has written. Nina, you appear to be falsely paraphrasing both the Vism. and the Susiam Sutta. So, I have to ask you what I ask Sarah and Jon: Can you read? Can you read and understand what you read? Metta, James #72448 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 22, 2007 9:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Han, The Vitthaara Sutta which Han quoted was my first choice as well. Thx, Han, I was looking through the PTS bk of 4s for it last night, but couldn't find it! Btw, Han, part of BB's translation and the Pali terms can be found in this old post of mine: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/44453 OK, Phil, my second choice is the Meghiya Sutta. I bet this is correct!! Here's a summary of it from any old post of mine too: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/28354 >"Migasala Sutta -AN, Bk of 6s,v.44 (PTS, Hare transl). B.Bodhi gives the title 'Don't Judge Others!'(p.159. Numerical Discourses). ***** Migasala comes to see Ananda. She explains that the Buddha said that both her father, Purana, and her uncle, Isidatta reached the same level of enlightenment. She cannot understand it because she says her father lived 'the godly life, dwelling apart, abstaining from common, carnal things'. Isidatta, on the other hand 'did not live the godly life but rejoiced with a wife'. When Ananda repeats the conversation to the Buddha, the Buddha explains their different characters, their different strengths and weaknesses to show that 'herein Isidatta fares not Purana's way but another's.' He also urges Ananda not to be a 'measurer of persons; measure not the measure of persons; verily, Ananda, he digs a pit for himnself who measures the measure of persons. I alone, Ananda, can measure their measure - or one like me.' In this sutta the Buddha also gives examples of two people who might be of similar nature and judged equally by the 'measurer of persons'. In fact there may be conditions for one of those judged to hear and understand the Teachings and who after death 'fares to excellence'. He explains again that the harm is to the 'measurer'...< ***** S: The only other idea I had was the oft-quoted 'Yuganaddha Sutta', AN 4s, 170 (Ways to Arahantship). Your first clue made it sound like a cross between this and the Vitthaara Sutta, but your second clue makes me think it must be the Meghiya Sutta. This is fun - just like doing crosswords with my mother in England. Let me know whether this one's right and if so, look forward to the next challenge! Metta, Sarah --- han tun wrote: > Dear Phil, > > I wonder whether the sutta you are looking for is the > following. This translation is from THE TIPITAKA > web-site. I prefer Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation with > the heading of "Four Modes of Progress." But I do not > have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation in electronic > version. > > -------------------- > > AN IV. 162. Vitthaara Sutta > > Bhikkhus, these are the four means of reaching the > goal. What four? > > A difficult means and slow realization, a difficult > means and quick realization, a pleasant means and slow > realization and a pleasant means and quick > realization. .... #72449 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 10:00 pm Subject: Re: daana corner sukinderpal Dear Han, I go to this part first: ============== Han: "My practice" means what I am doing at present, which I had mentioned in my previous post. In case you missed my previous post, the following is what I had written. "Now I have a very quiet life at home. I have the chance to do daana once a month. A temple in Wat Mahaathat allows Burmese community and Burmese monks to meet once a month. There, I offer alms food and other requisites to the monks and to the Burmese community. I observe five precepts. I do meditation on-cushion and off-cushion. I do kaayaanupassanaa (aanaapaanasati) on-cushion; and kaayaanupassanaa (aanaapaanasati) and cittaanupassana off-cushion. I am not doing anything special with a view to accumulate the Ten Perfections. To be frank, I have no specific goal. I will do siila, samaadhi, and bhaavanaa to the best of my ability. The outcome of my efforts is beyond my control. If I have accumulations and conditions I may attain something. If I do not attain anything it would not bother me much. I will do my best, and the rest will be my kamma." Sukinder: I did read this before. And last night I had composed a reply to you but by the time I reached the end, I thought that I may be sounding presumptuous, so I decided against posting it. This morning however, when I switched on DSG, I thought about your post again and reflected about Saddha. I then thought that I may be missing an aspect of this and that you may be talking about saddha from a perspective I didn't know about. My impression when reading the above the first time was that it sounded so much about "self", but didn't think it my business to comment on it. However when you reacted to Robert's response the way you did, I was reminded about the misuse of the concept of saddha and how it is so common that people mistake lobha for saddha. But as I said, I came to the conclusion that I may be mistaken about your use. As I understand it, saddha arises and falls with every kusala citta. A distinction is also made between saddha which accompanies kusala of the level of dana, sila and samatha bhavana on the one hand, and saddha which is suttamaya panna, cintamaya panna and bhavanamaya panna on the other. And this is the reason I asked you about saddha, because I could not see a hint of the latter in what you call "my practice". Now of course, you said the following: ============= Han: Here, I used the word "confidence" as in ordinary English usage, not as a translation from Pali word. Just like "self-confidence". How do you understand self-confidence? That was exactly how I felt - increased self-confidence in whatever I was doing. Sukinder: So is it then mana / lobha which is the driving force? If so, do you think it is at all helpful? With respect, Sukinder #72450 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue May 22, 2007 10:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? sarahprocter... Hi Scott, Herman, Howard & all, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: Until Sarah finds this, I've checked and the word seems to be > 'sabba~n~nuta~naa.na.m'. ... S: Ah, you may have missed this:-)): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72386 In any case, I was very glad to read your comments and to see that Herman is pursuing the topic with you:-)). Next time, I'll happily leave the Pali research to you too!! .... Thx also for the Sammohavinodani reference. And for the commentary, Abhidhamma and Patisambhidamagga sceptics, there's lots more in other suttas too. Here are a couple of examples: AN bk of 4s, (PTS translations)23 'The World': "Monks, whatsoever in the whole world, with the world of Maaras, Brahmaas, together with the host of recluses and braahmins, of devas and mankind, is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, searched into, pondered over by the mind, - all that is fully comprehended by a Tathaagata. That is why he is called 'Tathaagata.'............a Tathaagata is conqueror, unconquered, all-seeing, omnipotent. Therefore is he called 'Tathaagata.' " The next one - 24, 'Kaa.laka.'- has this same passage. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, thx for your comments. Understood. I certainly agree with your comments about the Psm translation. ======== #72451 From: Sobhana Date: Tue May 22, 2007 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? shennieca Hi Robert, Robert: What makes you think namas and rupas slow down(I mean apart from hearing someone say that)? How quickly or slowly, roughly, do you think they arise and disappear. Elaine: I don't think the nama and rupa slows down, I think it is just a set of instructions for doing meditation practise. I've heard that the nama and rupa arises and disappear very very fast (some people compare it with the speed of electrical current or maybe even faster than that but I'm not too sure). When I was at a retreat, I find that it is slightly easier to do walking meditation when the walking is slow compared to fast walking. Don't you find that too? My meditation is not great, so I think the ability to be mindful while playing soccer is amazing. It is not possible for me to do that but I'm not denying the ability of some people who can. I believe it is possible but is that ability common though?? Actually I still don't understand what mindfulness is. Metta Elaine #72452 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue May 22, 2007 11:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sobhana wrote: > > Elaine: I don't think the nama and rupa slows down, I think it is just a set of instructions for doing meditation practise. I've heard that the nama and rupa arises and disappear very very fast (some people compare it with the speed of electrical current or maybe even faster than that but I'm not too sure). > > When I was at a retreat, I find that it is slightly easier to do walking meditation when the walking is slow compared to fast walking. Don't you find that too? My meditation is not great, so I think the ability to be mindful while playing soccer is amazing. It is not possible for me to do that but I'm not denying the ability of some people who can. I believe it is possible but is that ability common though?? > > Actually I still don't understand what mindfulness is. > ======= Dear Elaine The arise and fall is much faster than electricty or anything we can conceptualize. And this rise and fall is neverending, whether walking slow or fast. It might seem that citta or vedana can last for split seconds- but actually they are gone even before they are known. However, panna is also a momentary reality that arises and passes away exactly as rapidly as citta. So panna can arise momentarily and know the nature of its object. I used to have the idea: first get the mind nice and still and then ponder at leisure the changing patterns. However, isn't this still caught up in a subtle idea that `mind' somehow exists. It is natural that mental states are involved in concepts but in between there can be, sometimes, little flashes of insight that know the characteristic of paramattha dhamma (any of the khandhas such as seeing or sound or feeling, or hardness, or greed). Ronald Graham, a well-known mathematician said "You can do mathematics anywhere. I once had a flash of insight into a problem in the middle of a back somersault with a triple twist on my trampoline ( in the "The man who loved only numbers"). Of course panna (wisdom ) of vipassana is much faster than that as it is seeing dhammas directly (not conceptualizing about them). Is it useful to be in quite place where one can ponder at leisure? Sure it can be, but it can also be a trap where one is unknowingly trying to focus without realsing that dhammas have already gone while one is trying to see them.?@ I think if there are conflicts then this shows that one is trying to force, and not accepting the present moment as it is. The only way out is to insight such moments and see what is really present - Robert #72453 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue May 22, 2007 11:57 pm Subject: Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. nilovg Hi Howard, PTS: atikammaruupe: having transcended Ruupa. I understand your viewpoint, but it is also possible to see it this way: he has not attained rupa-jhaana nor aruupajhana nor abhi~n~naa. Transcended rupajhana: he has not and has not attained it. In case of doubt the Co. help. Looking at the whole sutta I find this clear. The Buddha taught him vipassana straight: the khandhas, all nama and rupa that appear. He did not say: you need ruupajhaana first. Ven. B.B. mentions his personal opinion, and that is understandable. Every translator is different. Why is it such a dilemma whether there are dry insight workers not? What is against that? The Vis. also mentions them. As to right concentration of the eightfold Path (you referred to in another post) in the suttas where this is explained as jhana, we also have to think of the lokuttara Path where this factor is the same in strength as at least the concentration of the first jhana. We should not neglect right thinking which is, together with right view, the wisdom of the eightfold Path. Nama and rupa is the object of the eightfold Path that is mundane, nama and rupa appearing now. Right thinking, vitakka cetasika, touches the object that appears so that pa~n~naa can know it as it is. All factors have a function and are developed together. Nina. Op 22-mei-2007, om 22:04 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Details drawn from out of the blue! There simply is no basis. I have > to wonder at this, Nina. It doesn't instill confidence in the > commentaries, > though I do think it fair to not judge all commentaries on the > basis of one - and > I do not. #72454 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 23, 2007 12:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhaana and superpowers. nilovg Hi James, I try to look at the whole context of the Tipitaka and also include here puggala pa~n`natti of the Abhidhamma. It depends whether you include Abh. and Co or not. Nina. Op 23-mei-2007, om 5:53 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Nina, you appear to be falsely paraphrasing both the Vism. and the > Susiam Sutta. So, I have to ask you what I ask Sarah and Jon: Can you > read? Can you read and understand what you read? #72455 From: han tun Date: Wed May 23, 2007 12:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: daana corner hantun1 Dear Sukinder, I was not at all referring to "saddha." You can know what driving force that is driving me by reading the account of what I am doing. If you want to label what I wrote as maana or lobha, please go ahead. I would not mind. Respectfully, Han --- Sukinder wrote: > Dear Han, > > I go to this part first: > ============== > Han: > "My practice" means what I am doing at present, > which > I had mentioned in my previous post. In case you > missed my previous post, the following is what I had > written. > > "Now I have a very quiet life at home. I have the > chance to do daana once a month. A temple in Wat > Mahaathat allows Burmese community and Burmese monks > to meet once a month. There, I offer alms food and > other requisites to the monks and to the Burmese > community. I observe five precepts. I do meditation > on-cushion and off-cushion. I do kaayaanupassanaa > (aanaapaanasati) on-cushion; and kaayaanupassanaa > (aanaapaanasati) and cittaanupassana off-cushion. I > am > not doing anything special with a view to accumulate > the Ten Perfections. To be frank, I have no specific > goal. I will do siila, samaadhi, and bhaavanaa to > the > best of my ability. The outcome of my efforts is > beyond my control. If I have accumulations and > conditions I may attain something. If I do not > attain > anything it would not bother me much. I will do my > best, and the rest will be my kamma." > > Sukinder: I did read this before. And last night I > had composed a reply > to you but by the time I reached the end, I thought > that I may be > sounding presumptuous, so I decided against posting > it. This morning > however, when I switched on DSG, I thought about > your post again and > reflected about Saddha. I then thought that I may be > missing an aspect > of this and that you may be talking about saddha > from a perspective I > didn't know about. > > My impression when reading the above the first time > was that it > sounded so much about "self", but didn't think it > my business to > comment on it. However when you reacted to Robert's > response the > way you did, I was reminded about the misuse of the > concept of saddha > and how it is so common that people mistake lobha > for saddha. But as I > said, I came to the conclusion that I may be > mistaken about your use. > > As I understand it, saddha arises and falls with > every kusala citta. A > distinction is also made between saddha which > accompanies kusala of > the level of dana, sila and samatha bhavana on the > one hand, and > saddha which is suttamaya panna, cintamaya panna and > bhavanamaya > panna on the other. And this is the reason I asked > you about saddha, > because I could not see a hint of the latter in what > you call "my > practice". > > Now of course, you said the following: > ============= > Han: > Here, I used the word "confidence" as in ordinary > English usage, not as a translation from Pali word. > Just like "self-confidence". > How do you understand self-confidence? > That was exactly how I felt - increased > self-confidence in whatever I was doing. > > Sukinder: So is it then mana / lobha which is the > driving force? If so, do > you think it is at all helpful? > > With respect, > > Sukinder > > > > > #72456 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed May 23, 2007 12:35 am Subject: Daana Corner moellerdieter Hi Han, you wrote: I take note of it, and will see if I can have the chance to meet those lecturers D: best is just to drop in (afternoon) and have a chat Han: I have never given any lectures (of any kind) myself either in Burmese or in English. I don't know whether I can do it. Some people are gifted for that, but maybe I am not one of them. D: I think it is worth a trial .. one is learning by doing . Most students are young novices and easy to communicate with.. but you will know more whether / how you could help after speaking with the lecturers Han: I think the two are connected. For example, if I can keep the focus on the breath touching the nostril, my mind becomes stilled. And if my mind is still, I can keep the focus on the breath. Yes, I still find the difficulty. But it is not always, sometimes the concentration is good, sometimes it is not. D: yes, connected .. the tandem function . I recognised that sometimes concentration (on the breath )brings calmness.. sometimes there is calmness to support concentration ...but it seems to me that you enjoy some progress compared to a message about a year ago .. with Metta Dieter #72457 From: han tun Date: Wed May 23, 2007 12:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you so much for quoting your old post for my benefit. Btw, Han, part of BB's translation and the Pali terms can be found in this old post of mine: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/dhammastud ygroup/message/ 44453 Respectfully, Han #72458 From: han tun Date: Wed May 23, 2007 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Daana Corner hantun1 Dear Dieter, Yes, I will give a try. I am glad to know that it seems to you that I enjoy some progress compared to my message about a year ago. I do not know myself whether I am progressing or not. I also do not have a teacher to guide me and to evaluate my progress. Thank you very much for your keen interest. Respectfully, Han --- Dieter Möller wrote: > Hi Han, > > you wrote: > > I take note of it, and will see if I can have the > chance to meet those lecturers > > D: best is just to drop in (afternoon) and have a > chat > > Han: I have never given any lectures (of any kind) > myself either in Burmese or in English. I don't know > whether I can do it. Some people are gifted for > that, but maybe I am not one of them. > > D: I think it is worth a trial .. one is learning by > doing . Most students are young novices and easy > to communicate with.. but you will know more whether > / how you could help after speaking with the > lecturers > > Han: I think the two are connected. For example, if > I can keep the focus on the breath touching the > nostril, my mind becomes stilled. And if my mind is > still, I can keep the focus on the breath. Yes, I > still find the difficulty. But it is not always, > sometimes the > concentration is good, sometimes it is not. > > D: yes, connected .. the tandem function . > I recognised that sometimes concentration (on the > breath )brings calmness.. sometimes there is > calmness to support concentration ...but it seems > to me that you enjoy some progress compared to a > message about a year ago .. > > with Metta Dieter > #72459 From: "Sukinder" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 1:43 am Subject: Re: daana corner sukinderpal Dear Han, Han: I was not at all referring to "saddha." S: This I now know. ------------ Han: You can know what driving force that is driving me by reading the account of what I am doing. S: I don't, which is why I asked. ----------- Han: If you want to label what I wrote as maana or lobha, please go ahead. I would not mind. S: Do you think I enjoy doing that?!! This is a discussion list Han. You were happy to be praised, but it seems that when questioned, you don't want to clarify beyond what you have already written. I comment only if I feel that it might be useful for the other person. Well, I'll probably not respond to your posts from now. Sukinder #72460 From: "Phil" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 1:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle philofillet Hi Sarah > Let me know whether this one's right and if so, look forward to the next > challenge! Thanks, but no, this is not the one either! Maybe I just dreamed it! I have a feeling it was in an MN sutta, just a couple of paragraphs that were kind of separate from the main thrust of the sutta. Very dramatic wording about the defilements, and that for some people the holy life is achieved amidst the defilements, with painful striving. Whereas the person who is not wrapped up in these gross defilements from birth has attainments without a lot of painful striving. So similar, I guess, to the sutta that you and Han were kind enough to provide. Actually, our computer is going into the shop for a week, so why don't we let this sit and see if I come across it again during the week away? Thanks again. Metta, Phil #72461 From: "Phil" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 2:08 am Subject: [dsg] Re: daana corner philofillet Hi Sukinder and Han and all Han: If you want to label what I wrote as maana or lobha, > please go ahead. I would not mind. Sukinder, I don't think Han meant this in a disrespectful way. I know I would probably answer the same way. There is lobha and maana all the time, with just about every citta. As soon as we see something, or hear something, or taste something, there is lobha. If we are going to worry about lobha in our Dhamma practice, we won't get anywhere. That's what I would answer, though I don't know if that's what Han meant. THere has to be faith in the Buddha's teaching from the beginning, and confidence that what one is doing is helping to subdue the fires of greed, hatred and delusion (the kind that fails to see that sense pleasures are harmful) from the beginning. Beginning to subdue the intensity of these flames is far more important than trying in vain to root out the subtle forms of clinging to self and whatnot that will be there no matter what! Whether this saddha is the saddha of Abhidhamma that rises and falls away and has this or that paramattha dhamma as an object is not the point when we are dealing with the blazing inferno of hatred and lust! That's the way I see it. It is saddha that what we are doing is helping to make ourselves less harmful to ourselves and others, at a conventional level. It is saddha that is confidence based on what we see happening in our lives. If we understand from our experience what the object of saddha is at a paramattha level, great. If not, there is not much point in thinking about it. Again my opinion. Metta, Phil p.s my computer is going in to the shop so won't be able to respond for at least a week. And if you write one of those really, really, really long posts I might not be able to respond at all! :) (Though I know those long posts are good for you and others, so keep writing them, of course.) #72462 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: daana corner egberdina Hi Sukin, On 23/05/07, Sukinder wrote: > > Han: > If you want to label what I wrote as maana or lobha, > please go ahead. I would not mind. > > S: Do you think I enjoy doing that?!! > This is a discussion list Han. You were happy to be praised, but it seems > that when questioned, you don't want to clarify beyond what you have > already written. I comment only if I feel that it might be useful for the > other person. > Well, I'll probably not respond to your posts from now. > It is my experience that there is nothing useful in having self-views pointed out by someone who is equally as mired in them. The words of Jesus come to mind:"And why point out the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the log in your own eye?". Herman #72463 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Awareness a la Anuruddha! bhikkhu5 Friends: Dwelling inside the 4 Foundations of Awareness! Once when the Venerable Anuruddha and the Venerable Sariputta were living at VesÄ?li in AmbapÄ?lÄ« 's Grove. Then, in the early evening, the Venerable Sariputta emerged from his daylong seclusion, went to the Venerable Anuruddha and said: Friend Anuruddha , indeed is your appearance serene and your visual expression is pure & bright! In what dwelling does the Venerable Anuruddha now usually dwell? Now, friend, I usually dwell with a mind well established in the four foundations of awareness. What four? Here, friend, I dwell solely reflecting upon the body only as a formed group ... reflecting upon the feelings only as passing sensations ... reflecting upon the mind only as habitual & transient moods ... reflecting upon all phenomena only as constructed mental states ... while keen, clearly comprehending, acutely aware, thereby removing all desire and frustration rooted in this world. The Bhikkhu, friend, who is an Arahat, one whose mental fermentations are destroyed, who has lived the Noble life, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, reached his own goal, by utterly eliminating the chains of endless re-becoming, one entirely released through final direct knowledge, usually dwells with a mind well established in these four foundations of awareness.... Then Venerable Sariputta exclaimed: It is a gain for us, friend, it is well won by us, friend, that we were in the very presence of the Venerable Anuruddha when he roared such a lion's roar... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:301-2] section 52: Anuruddha. Thread 9: The All! Details and references for further study: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/ay/anuruddha.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/sa/saariputta.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/vy/vesaali.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Four_Foundations_of_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Awareness_Ability.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Clear_Comprehension.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Focusing_on_Feeling.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/Magnificent_Mind.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Phenomena_is_Mental_States.htm http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/The_Three_Fermentations.htm Awareness a la Anuruddha Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <.....> #72464 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 23, 2007 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > Thanks, but no, this is not the one either! ... S: Hmmm:-/....Thx for the new set of clues below. Someone else's turn to have a go or maybe you'll find it first! Look f/w to more when you get your computer back.... Metta, Sarah .... Maybe I just dreamed > it! I have a feeling it was in an MN sutta, just a couple of > paragraphs that were kind of separate from the main thrust of the > sutta. Very dramatic wording about the defilements, and that for > some people the holy life is achieved amidst the defilements, with > painful striving. Whereas the person who is not wrapped up in these > gross defilements from birth has attainments without a lot of > painful striving. So similar, I guess, to the sutta that you and Han > were kind enough to provide. #72465 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 3:30 am Subject: [dsg] Re: jhaana and superpowers. buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > I try to look at the whole context of the Tipitaka and also include > here puggala pa~n`natti of the Abhidhamma. It depends whether you > include Abh. and Co or not. > Nina. Okay, this makes sense to me. Thank you for directly answering me. If you include the commentary in your paraphrase, then I could see why you paraphrased the way you did. Nina, there is very little (probably nothing) I could say to you to consider the sutta without the commentary. You have it dead set in your mind that the commentary is just as valuable as the sutta itself- just because it is ancient. In this instance, I happen to disagree with the commentary, and you happen to agree with it- so we are at an impasse. However, I do have to say, that if you really took the ENTIRE Tipitaka into account, you would reject the commentary to this sutta without question. The Buddha taught the Noble Eightfold Path, period. He didn't teach the Noble Seven-(and sometimes Eight)-fold Path. You have to trust what the Buddha taught and don't think for an instant that maybe you or someone else knows better. I know that you know this...but I wanted to remind you anyway. :-) Thank you again for being direct with me. I really appreciate that. Metta, James #72466 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 3:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle buddhatrue Hi Phil (and Sarah), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > --- Phil wrote: > > Thanks, but no, this is not the one either! > ... > S: Hmmm:-/....Thx for the new set of clues below. Someone else's turn to > have a go or maybe you'll find it first! > > Look f/w to more when you get your computer back.... > > Metta, > > Sarah > .... > Maybe I just dreamed > > it! I have a feeling it was in an MN sutta, just a couple of > > paragraphs that were kind of separate from the main thrust of the > > sutta. Very dramatic wording about the defilements, and that for > > some people the holy life is achieved amidst the defilements, with > > painful striving. I don't have my printed copies of the Nikayas anymore, but I think I know what you are talking about. The Buddha gave a sutta where he said something to the effect that one should follow the precepts even if it results in tears in the eyes! Even is one struggles so much and has so much pain from following the precepts, it should still be done! I think of this teaching frequently...as following the precepts sometimes causes me to have tears in my eyes...(or at least in my heart :-). Metta, James #72467 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Regarding: Sarah: Ah, you may have missed this:-)): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/72386 Scott: My apologies! At least I found the same word independently and in the Pa.t.thaanapali, too (like a good scientist) and am thus really, really smart since this corroborates what you wrote and now Herman can have no doubts whatsoever. Sincerely, Mr. Redundant. #72468 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 23, 2007 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence sarahprocter... Hi Larry, Some heavy Abhidhamma here....be warned! --- LBIDD@... wrote: >I'm guessing you don't have the Patthana in Pali. > What I was interested in is, if "mano vatthu" is incorrect, then what > term is used in the Patthana. It couldn't be "hadaya vatthu" because > that term came into use in the later commentaries. .... S: I quoted the following before and suggested 'materiality' here would be ruupa: >The scripture is this: 'The materiality dependent on which the mind-element and mind-consciousness- element occur is a condition, as support-condition, for the mind-element and the mind-consciousness- elementand what is associated therewith' (Pth. 1.5)......"< ... S: I just checked this in the English translation of the Patthana (PTS) under 'Dependence Condition' and the Pali on: http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/booklistframe2.html English text: "Depending on this matter (i.e. heart-base), mind-element and mind-consciousness element arise; that matter is related to mind-element and mind-consciousness element and their associated states by dependence condition." Pali: "ya.m ruupa.m nissaaya manodhaatu ca manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu ca vattanti, ta.m ruupa.m manodhaatuyaa ca manov~n~naa.nadhaatuyaa ca ta.m sampayuttakaana~nca dhammaana.m nissayapaccayena paccayo." S: There's another reference a couple of pages on under 'Prenascence Condition': "Depending on this matter [S: see above], mind-element and mind-consciousness element arise; that matter is related to mind-element and its associated states by prenascence condition; is sometimes related to mind-donsciousness element and its associated states by prenascence condition, and is sometimes not related by prenascence condition." S: Again, it starts with "ya.m ruupa.m nissaya....." .... >L:In Ven. Nyanatiloka's > "Guide Through The Abhidhamma-Pitaka" he uses "physical organ of mind" > in the section on the conditioning of nama and rupa in the Patthana, but > he doesn't give the Pali. .... S: Let's see if I follow you. On p 121 (in my very old copy), he uses 'corporeal phenomenon' for 'matter' (ruupa) when he quotes the same as I gave from the Patthana. He adds a note: "The words 'that corporeal phenomenon'...refer to the physical base of mind which, in commentarial literature, is called the 'heartbase' (hadaya-vatthu). This latter term, however, is not found in the Abhidhamma Pitaka." On p165 under 'Paticca Samuppaada': "Through Mentality and Corporeality conditioned are the 6 Bases (naama-ruupa-paccayaa sa.laayatana'm.) The 6 'Bases' (aayatana) are a name for the 5 physical sense-organs (eye, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-sensitivity) and the 'Mind-base' (manaayatana), the latter being a collective term for all the different classes of Consciousness. Cf Vibh 111." [S: This is what I supposed was being referred to in the Psm under 'Defining Internally', Treatise of Knowledge, Ch XV, with the reference to mano.) Continuing with Nyantiloka's quote from the texts: " 'Mentality' (naama) refers, again, to the above-mentioned 3 karma-resultant mental groups [S: cetasikas in the 3 khandhas arising with vipaka cittas], whilst 'Corporeality' (ruupa) refers here to the 4 primary elements, the 6 physical organs, and the physical vitality." S: Nyantiloka adds his own note: "The physical organ, or seat, of mind must not be confounded with the Mind-base (s. above)." In other words, here by physical organs, the text is referring to eye, ear-, nose-, tongue-base, body-sense, i.e the ruupas, and to the ruupa (taken to refer to haddaya-vatthu)as base for all cittas other than seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and body-consciousness. A little further down, it says: "(Corporeality and Mind-base) - the physical organ of mind is, at the moment of conception, to the Mind-Base a condition by way of Co-nascence, Mutuality, Support, Dissociation, Presence, and Non-disappearance." S: So here, the 'physical organ of mind' is haddaya-vatthu, which at the moment of birth (i.e conception)conditions 'mind-base' (manaayatana), i.e rebirth consciousness. As Nyantiloka comments (and this relates directly also to the quote I gave above from the Patthana under 'Pre-nascence condition'), only at birth does the haddaya-vatthu arise at the same time as consciousness, both conditioning each other. (On all other occasions, this ruupa arises first and conditions the cittas by pre-nascence condition.) Phew! How are we doing? Metta, Sarah ===== #72469 From: "Leo" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 3:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Buddha Image leoaive Hi if those marks of superman are really something good, then it should be done on fabric as a Buddha Image. Leo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: <...> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_symbolism > > There are 32 main characteristics (Pali: Lakkhana Mahapurisa 32): > #72470 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 23, 2007 3:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? sarahprocter... Dear Redundant in the Prairies*, Being a little late is not the worst crime, don't fret:-)) --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: My apologies! At least I found the same word independently > and in the Pa.t.thaanapali, too (like a good scientist) and am thus > really, really smart since this corroborates what you wrote ... S: Ah, I thought I was the smart one to be corroborating with the Chief Scientist & Pali Scholar Extraordinnaire:-). .... >and now > Herman can have no doubts whatsoever. .... S: Sure! Sure! LOL! I don't think our two great minds are any match for our Sceptic Extraordinnaire......Anyway, a rest for me - over to you, my tag-team player on this one, Scott! Metta, Sarah * Phil used to write these great 'Dear Abhi' letters when he first joined DSG. Hope he starts another series when he gets his computer back! ========= #72471 From: "gazita2002" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 4:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanent versus inconstant. gazita2002 Hello Larry, Nice to talk to you too. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Azita, > > Nice to talk to you. > > A: "As we know, at any given moment there is only ever one citta, and > therefore there can only be one type of rupa being experienced by that > citta." > > L: Agreed, but this is a deception. One rupa is only part of the reality > of the kalaapa. We have two realities here, the kalaapa and the single > rupa. azita: No, the single rupa IS part of that kalaapa, however it is the only rupa of that kalaapa that is experienced. The single rupa can't be the same rupa that is inseparable from > the kalaapa. Why can't we say the single rupa is a facsimile of the > inseparable rupa? azita: isnt taht making it more complicated? What experiences the facsimile? doesnt it then become a concept? The rule is that no rupa manifests by itself. > > Larry > Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #72472 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed May 23, 2007 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle sarahprocter... Hi Phil, One more sutta I thought of is AN 4s, 169 "With Some Effort" (PTS). B.Bodhi refers to it in his article "Jhaana and the Lay Disciple": "At AN 4:169/II 155-56, the Buddha contrasts two kinds of non-returners: one who attains final Nibbaana without exertion (asa,nkhaara-parinibbaayii), and one who attains final Nibbaana with exertion (sasa,nkhaara-parinibbaayii). The former is one who enters and dwells in the four jhaanas (described by the stock formula). The latter practises instead the "austere" meditations such as the contemplation of the foulness of the body, reflection on the repulsiveness of food, disenchantment with the whole world, perception of impermanence in all formations, and recollection of death." Metta, Sarah p.s No need to reply unless it wins the prize! ======= #72473 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 5:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Anyone Else, Regarding: Scott: This 'omniscience' is not, in my opinion, all encompassing. It is systematic and based on a sequential adverting to various dhammas, as described above. I'll look for more on this, since I'm not sure of what I just said..." That wasn't quite correct. Here's the quote I was thinking of. I'm sorry its a bit long, and I know its not really your thing, but for what its worth (and for others, too) here's from Visuddhimagga, VII,note 7. [I think it bears recalling that this, I think, is about pa~n~na developed to the highest possible degree, not about 'Someone Who Knows Everything' - this is where I think you might be getting mixed up, Herman]: "'Is not unobstructed knowledge (anaavara.na-~naana) different from omniscient knowledge (sabba~n~na-~naana)? Otherwise the words, 'Six kinds of knowledge unshared [by disciples]' (Ps.i.3) would be contradicted? [Note: The six kinds are: knowledge of what faculties prevail in beings, knowledge of the inclinations and tendencies of beings, knowledge of the Twin Marvel, knowledge of the attainmnent of the great compassion, omniscient knowledge, and unobstructed knowledge (see Ps.i.133).] - There is no contradiction, because two ways in which a single kind of knowledge's objective field occurs are described for the purpose of showing by means of this difference how it is not shared by others. It is only one kind of knowledge; but it is called omniscient knowledge because its objective field consists of formed, unformed, and conventional (samutti) [i.e. conceptual] dhammas without remainder, and it is called unobstructed knowledge because of its unrestricted access to the objective field, because of absence of obstruction. And it is said accordingly in the Pa.tisambhidaa: 'It knows all the formed and the unformed without remainder, thus it is omniscient knowledge. It has no obstruction therein, thus it is unobstructed knowledge' (Ps.i.131), and so on. So they are not different kinds of knowledge. And there must be no reservation, otherwise it would follow that omniscient and unobstructed knowledge had obstructions and did not make all dhammas its object. There is not in fact a minimal obstruction to the Blessed One's knowledge: and if his unobstrcted knowledge had obstructions and did not have all dhammas as its object, there would be presence of obstruction where it did not occur, and so it would not be unobstructed. 'Or alternatively, even if we suppose that they are different, still it is omniscient knowledge itself that is intended as 'unhindered' since it is that which occurs unhindered universally. And it is by his attainment of that that the Blessed One is known as Omniscient, All-Seer, Fully Enlightened, not because of awareness (avabodha) of every dhamma at once, simultaneously (see M.ii.127). And it is said accordingly in the Pa.tisambhidaa: 'This is a name derived from the final liberation of the Enlightened Ones, the Blessed Ones, together with the acquisition of omniscient knowledge at the root of the Enlightenment Tree; this name 'Buddha' is a designation based on realisation' (Ps.i.174). For the ability in the Blessed One's continuity to penetrate all dhammas without exception was due to his having completely attained to knowledge capable of becoming aware of all dhammas. 'Here it may be asked: But how then? When this knowledge occurs, does it do so with respect to every field simultaneously, or successively? For firstly, if it occurs simultaneously with respect to every objective field, then with the simultaneous appearance of formed dhammas classed as past, future and present, internal and external, etc., and of unformed and conventional (conceptual) dhammas, there would be no awareness of contrast (pa.tibhaaga), as happens in one who looks at a painted canvas from a distance. That being so, it follows that all dhammas become the objective field of the Blessed One's knowledge in an undifferentiated form (aniruupita-ruupana), as they do through the aspect of not-self to those who are exercising insight thus 'All dhammas are not-self'...And those do not escape this difficulty who say that the Enlightened One's knowledge occurs with the characteristic of presence of all knowable dhammas as its objective field, devoid of discriminative thinking (vikappa-rahita), and universal in time (sabba-kaala) and that is why they are called 'All-seeing' and why it is said, 'The Naaga is concentrated walking and he is concentrated standing'(?). They do not escape the difficulty since because, by having the characteristic of presence as its object, past, future, and conventional dhammas, which lact that characteristic, would be absent. So it is wrong to say that it occurs simultaneously with respect to every objective field. Then secondly, if we say that it occurs successively with respect to every objective field, this is wrong too. For when the knowable, classed in many different ways according to birth, place, individual essence, etc., and direction, place, time, etc., is apprehended successively, then penetration without remainder is not effected since the knowable is infinite. And those are wrong too who say that the Blessed One is All-seeing owing to his doing his defining by taking one part of the knowable as that actually experienced ( anumaanika) since it is free from doubt, because it is what is doubtfully discovered that is meant by inferential knowledge in the world. And they are wrong because there is no such defining by taking one part of the knowable as that actually experienced and deciding that the rest is the same because of the unequivocalness of its meaning, without making all of it actually experienced. For then that 'rest' is not actually experienced; and if it were actually experienced, it would no longer be 'the rest'. 'All that is no argument - Why not? - Because this is not a field for ratiocination; for the Blessed One has said this: 'The objective field of Enlightened One's is unthinkable, it cannot be thought out; anyone who tried to think it out would reap madness and frustration' (A.ii.80). The agreed explanation here is this: What ever the Blessed One wants to know - either entirely or partially - there his knowledge occurs as actual experience because it does so without hindrance. And it has constant concentration because of the absence of distraction. And it cannot occur in association with wishing of a kind that is due to absence from the objective field of something that he wants to know. There can be no exception to this because of the words, 'All dhammas are available to the adverting of the Enlightened One, the Blessed One, are available at his wish, are available to his attention, are available to his thought' (Ps.ii. 195). And the Blessed One's knowledge that has past and future as its objective field is entirely actual experience since it is devoid of assumption based on inference, tradition, or conjecture. 'And yet, even in that case, suppose he wanted to know the whole in its entirety, then would his knowledge not occur without differentiation in the whole objective field simultaneously? And so there would still be no getting out of that difficulty? "That is not so, because of its purifiedness. Because the Enlightened One's objective field is purified and it is unthinkable. Otherwise there would be no unthinkableness in the knowledge of the Enlightened One, the Blessed One, if it occured in the same way as ordinary people. So, although it occurs with all dhammas as its object, it nevertheless does so making those dhammas quite clearly defined, as though it had a single dhamma as its object. This is what is unthinkable here. 'There is as much knowledge as there is knowable, there is as much knowable as there is knowledge; the knowledge is limited by the knowable, the knowable is limited by the knowledge' (Ps.ii 195). So he is Fully Enlightened because he has rightly and by himself discovered all dhammas together and separately, simultaneously and successively, according to his wish'(Pm.190-91). Sincerely, Scott. #72474 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 5:12 am Subject: Re: Anicca and Anatta - An Addendum Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence egberdina Hi TG, Howard, Larry and all, On 20/05/07, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > To tell you the truth, In my own thinking, I don't separate nama and rupa as > is traditionally done. I don't see them as "separate things" other than > conventionally. But, I do agree that mentality is a very complicated process > with enormous structuring factors and without thinking about it too deeply, I > can't think of any rupa situation that is as complex. If there is a spade here, let's call it a spade. Is the division nama/rupa experienced, or is it a product of thought/analysis? Herman #72475 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 23, 2007 1:19 am Subject: Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 5/22/07 11:22:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard, > Maybe if you give us some more details of why you think the ancient > Commentary was wrong. Did the monks make up the story, for what > reason? > Robert > ====================== I think they were wrong, because there is no basis for what they say in the sutta - none at all. As to their motivation, of course I don't know. I don't believe they were lying, because I believe that truth would be apriority forthem, and, moreover, there would be no gain from lying even if they were "bad monks".Possibly they were so set against jhana practice that they "saw" what they wanted to see. That is a very human thing.It happens all the time, without ill intention behind it. I simply don't know. Also, Robert, I do not know what person or persons actually composed the commentary on this particular sutta. I have no reason to suppose that it was the same folks for all the commentaries. It *was*a few years back, you know. ;-) Buddhaghosa, as far as I know, merely acted as organizer a persenter ofcommentarial materials that preceded him. In any case, the sutta is clear as regards jhanas. Only the arupa-jhanas are discussed. With metta, Howard #72476 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 5:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] If so, how did he know it? egberdina Hi Scott, On 23/05/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > > Scott: This 'omniscience' is not, in my opinion, all encompassing. It > is systematic and based on a sequential adverting to various dhammas, > as described above. I'll look for more on this, since I'm not sure of > what I just said..." > > That wasn't quite correct. Here's the quote I was thinking of. I'm > sorry its a bit long, and I know its not really your thing, but for > what its worth (and for others, too) here's from Visuddhimagga, Thank you for your efforts, seriously, but the material you have quoted here and in previous posts in relation my question re omniscience, are unreadable to me. In the meantime, I figure that the alleged and difficult omniscience of the Buddha has no bearing on the path, so I'll leave it to one side, or the other. Which side? Well, that is undetermined :-) Herman #72477 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 23, 2007 5:52 am Subject: Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. nilovg Hi Howard, I am glad you do not see the commentators as lyers. I think it is good to go on discussing about samatha and vipassana. I value the discussions with you, Howard. It does not matter that we see things differently. Nina. Op 23-mei-2007, om 14:19 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > As to their motivation, of course I don't know. I > don't believe they were lying, because I believe that truth would > be apriority > forthem, and, moreover, there would be no gain from lying even if > they were > "bad monks".Possibly they were so set against jhana practice that > they "saw" > what they wanted to see. That is a very human thing.It happens all > the time, > without ill intention behind it. #72478 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 23, 2007 6:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? nilovg Dear Elaine, very good remark. I keep in mind slow motion and football playing. Important to get this right! This is exactly what my husband Lodewijk keeps on asking. You know what, just follow our dialogue in Paris I promised, but for which I did not have time yet. I do not forget, but I promised to help with a Sri Lanka project checking Abhidhamma parts of a book. Nina. Op 23-mei-2007, om 7:55 heeft Sobhana het volgende geschreven: > Actually I still don't understand what mindfulness is. #72479 From: connie Date: Wed May 23, 2007 6:05 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (55) nichiconn dear friends, part 17 of 17: "Tato gotamidhaatuuni, tassaa pattagataani so; upanaamesi naathassa, aanando buddhacodito. "Paa.ninaa taani paggayha, avoca isisattamo; mahato saaravantassa, yathaa rukkhassa ti.t.thato. "Yo so mahattaro khandho, palujjeyya aniccataa; tathaa bhikkhunisa"nghassa, gotamii parinibbutaa. "Aho acchariya.m mayha.m, nibbutaayapi maatuyaa; saariiramattasesaaya, natthi sokapariddavo. "Na sociyaa paresa.m saa, ti.n.nasa.msaarasaagaraa; parivajjitasantaapaa, siitibhuutaa sunibbutaa. Then Aananda, urged on by the Buddha, put the relics of Gotamii in a bowl and gave it to the Protector. The Best of Sages took them in his hand and said, "Just as a large tree with the heartwood that is standing up could fall down because even the greatest mass possesses the characteristic of impermanence, Gotamii of the Order of Bhikkhuniis is quenched. "O the marvel when my mother was quenched. There is no grief or lamentation for her bodily remains. "Others should not grieve for her - one who has gone beyond the ocean of continued existence, who avoided intense heat, who has become cool, who is well quenched. "Pa.n.ditaasi mahaapa~n~naa, puthupa~n~naa tatheva ca; ratta~n~nuu bhikkhuniina.m saa, eva.m dhaaretha bhikkhavo. "Iddhiisu ca vasii aasi, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; cetopariya~naa.nassa, vasii aasi ca gotamii. "Pubbenivaasama~n~naasi, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi tassaa punabbhavo. "Atthadhammaniruttiisu pa.tibhaane tatheva ca; parisuddha.m ahu ~naa.na.m, tasmaa socaniyaa na saa. "She was wise, of great wisdom, and also of extensive wisdom. Bear in mind, bhikkhus, that she was [foremost] in long standing among the bhikkhuniis. "And Gotamii had mastery of the supernormal powers. By means of the divine ear element she had mastery of the knowledge of the penetration of minds. "She knew her previous lives. Her divine eye was purified. All her taints were consumed. Now there is no renewed existence. "And she also had comprehension of meaning, states, and language. Her knowledge was pure. Therefore, she is not to be grieved for. "Ayoghanahatasseva jalato jaatavedassa; anupubbuupasantassa, yathaa na ~naayate gati. "Eva.m sammaa vimuttaana.m, kaamabandhoghataarina.m; pa~n~naapetu.m gati natthi, pattaana.m acala.m sukha.m. "Attadiipaa tato hotha, satipa.t.thaanagocaraa; bhaavetvaa sattabojjha"nge, dukkhassanta.m karissathaa"ti. (Apa. therii 2.2.97-288). Mahaapajaapatigotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. "Like a spark of fire from a sledgehammer that fades away and whose destination is unknown, so too the destination of those who are well liberated, who have crossed over the flood of the ties of sensual pleasures, who have reached unshakable happiness cannot be pointed out. "Therefore, be refuges to yourself. Develop the seven constituents of awakening through the domain of the foundations of mindfulness, and you will put an end to misery." Thus these verses of Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii were spoken. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii. === peace, connie #72480 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction pannabahulo Dear Dhamma friends, I wish to clarify one point that I see has been raised by some people. AT NO TIME WAS I EVER ALONE WITH AJAN SUCHIN.There was always a man present - he is a doctor - and several ladies. I have no idea where the idea that Ajan Suchin and I were alone came from; but this is an example of how defilements can arise and assumptions and/or accusations made on the basis of them. It also shows that the suggestions that we were alone shows a lack of respect for Ajan Suchin.She is fully aware of monk's vinaya and would never - I just know after meeting her twice - cause a monk to breach his discipline. I hope this puts the matter to rest; there were plenty of witnesses in the room that day if you still have doubts. With metta - and some amazement, Pannabahulo bhikkhu #72481 From: han tun Date: Wed May 23, 2007 6:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle hantun1 Dear Phil, Does the following paragraph ring the bell? "Furthermore, the monk notices this: 'When I live according to my pleasure, unskillful mental qualities increase in me & skillful qualities decline. When I exert myself with stress & pain, though, unskillful qualities decline in me & skillful qualities increase. Why don't I exert myself with stress & pain?' So he exerts himself with stress & pain, and while he is exerting himself with stress & pain, unskillful qualities decline in him, & skillful qualities increase. Then at a later time he would no longer exert himself with stress & pain. Why is that? Because he has attained the goal for which he was exerting himself with stress & pain. That is why, at a later time, he would no longer exert himself with stress & pain." If yes, it is from MN 101 Devadaha Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.101.than.html Respectfully, Han #72482 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 23, 2007 2:27 am Subject: Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/23/07 3:02:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > PTS: attaining by volition canst dwell in those stages of deliverance > where the Ruupa-world is transcended and the Immaterial [world is > reached]? > Not so, lord.> > > atikammaruupe: having transcended Ruupa. > > I understand your viewpoint, but it is also possible to see it this > way: he has not attained rupa-jhaana nor aruupajhana nor abhi~n~naa. > Transcended rupajhana: he has not and has not attained it. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: That is just not what that means. To transcend is to go *beyond* - literally to "climb across". It does *not* mean to not attain. It just does not. The phrase "those stages of deliverance where the Ruupa-world is transcended and the Immaterial [world is reached]" refers specifically to the formless jhanas or realms. ------------------------------------------- In case of > > doubt the Co. help. Looking at the whole sutta I find this clear. The > Buddha taught him vipassana straight: the khandhas, all nama and rupa > that appear. He did not say: you need ruupajhaana first. > Ven. B.B. mentions his personal opinion, and that is understandable. > Every translator is different. > Why is it such a dilemma whether there are dry insight workers not? > What is against that? The Vis. also mentions them. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The issue is that particular sutta, and also the many suttas that indicate that both jhanas and discernment are requisite for awakening. Also at issue is the prejudice against the jhanas that is quite alive and well. As for dry insight, I see that as coming down to ongoing mindfulness practice, an extremly important part of Dhamma practice, a practice that is very important to me and that I am dedicated to, but that I see as certanly not enough. The Buddha made the essential importance of the jhanas crystal clear, it seem to me, in SO many suttas. --------------------------------------------- > As to right concentration of the eightfold Path (you referred to in > another post) in the suttas where this is explained as jhana, we also > have to think of the lokuttara Path where this factor is the same in > strength as at least the concentration of the first jhana. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Concentration of strength at least equal to that of the first jhana is not jhana. ------------------------------------------------ > We should not neglect right thinking which is, together with right > view, the wisdom of the eightfold Path. Nama and rupa is the object > of the eightfold Path that is mundane, nama and rupa appearing now. > Right thinking, vitakka cetasika, touches the object that appears so > that pa~n~naa can know it as it is. All factors have a function and > are developed together. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't suggest neglecting anything useful - just the opposite. ------------------------------------------------ > Nina. > ======================= With metta, Howard #72483 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 23, 2007 6:32 am Subject: Conditions, ch 1, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Citta is one of the four factors which can produce rúpas, the others being kamma, temperature (utu) and nutrition (åhåra). Citta can produce the eight inseparable rúpas which are: solidity, cohesion, temperature, motion, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence [1]. There is a rúpa which is space, åkåsa, and this rúpa has the function of separating the different groups or units of rúpas produced by each of the four factors. Åkåsa itself is produced by each of the four factors, and thus also by citta. Citta can produce sound, and it also produces the three "mutables'' (or changeability of rúpa), vikåra rúpas, which are: lightness (lahutå), wieldiness (mudutå) and adaptability (kammaññatå). These three rúpas condition the suppleness of the body so that it can move. Citta also produces the two kinds of intimation, namely: bodily intimation (kåya-viññatti), gestures, movements of the body and facial movements by which we express our intentions, and speech intimation (vací-viññatti). Citta is assisted by the accompanying cetasikas when it produces rúpa. When we are angry and we show this by our facial expression, akusala citta produces the rúpa which is bodily intimation. Bodily intimation is then conditioned by the hetus which are moha and dosa by way of root- condition. We may raise our hand and hit someone else. Then akusala kamma through the body is being performed and the rúpa which is bodily intimation is the body-door of this kamma. That rúpa is conditioned by root-condition. When we flatter someone else in order to be liked by him we speak with lobha-múla-citta. Then the rúpa which is speech-intimation is conditioned by moha and lobha by way of root- condition. Or we may commit akusala kamma through speech, for example, when we are lying. Lying may be done with lobha-múla-citta when we want to gain something, or with dosa-múla-citta when we want to harm someone else. The rúpa which is speech is then conditioned by the accompanying roots by way of root-condition. When we clean the house or when we cook, do we realize by which hetus our bodily movements are conditioned? There can be awareness at such moments. We may write a letter to someone else with kindness, mettå, and then the rúpas which arise while we move our hands are produced by kusala citta. The accompanying sobhana hetus condition these rúpas by way of root- condition. However, there are likely to be akusala cittas arising alternately with kusala cittas. There may be right understanding of nåma and rúpa while we write and then the citta is accompanied by alobha, adosa and amoha. --------- [1]: Rúpas always arise in groups or units, and these consist of at least eight rúpas, which are called the inseparable rúpas. Some groups of rúpas consist of more than eight rúpas, but the eight inseparables always have to be present. ******* Nina. #72484 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 23, 2007 6:36 am Subject: Perfections N, no 32 nilovg Dear friends, It may happen that we start to develop right understanding and then, after ten or more years, when we still do not see much result, we become impatient. We may wonder whether being in another situation would help us to have more sati. We do not realize that each situation is conditioned already. Any object, also kusala citta, can become object of clinging. We may not even notice that we prefer other situations, other objects to the present one. Even subtle clinging to kusala can be dangerous, because it makes it most difficult for us to develop understanding in daily life. Understanding cannot grow if it is not developed in daily life. We have to know our life, our real accumulations. When there is more sincerity the development of satipatthãna will be more natural. This means that one will develop understanding of whatever appears now instead of looking for other objects. Khun Sujin said: It is hard to know subtle clinging, one usually follows desire. Anything can be object of desire. When one thinks that one is not attached to sensuous objects, one is attached to other objects, notdeveloping right understanding of seeing now, hearing now, thinking now. Each moment is conditioned and satipatthana can see how it is conditioned just like that. If we understand that the present reality is conditioned already we will not try to change the situation in order to have more mindfulness. While we are thinking of having more mindfulness we are clinging to a concept of self who has mindfulness and we forget to be mindful of whatever appears now. During my last afternoon in Delhi we had a Dhamma discussion in the lobby of the hotel. I was clinging to particular situa-tions which, I thought, were favorable for sati, and Khun Sujin tried to bring me back to the present moment by her way of answering my questions. I thought that when there would not be an occasion for Dhamma discussions I would be missing out opportunities to learn. The conversation which I recorded was as follows: Sarah: It seems that there is just clinging to oneself when one thinks about how one is missing out Dhamma discussions. For example, when there were discussions in Thai there were some moments of dosa but then there were also other moments of rejoicing in others' kusala, appreciating good reminders, instead of thinking of oneself, of how one is missing out. Missing out in what? In an opportunity for kusala? Khun Sujin: When one develops satipatthãna, no matter in what situation one is, sati can arise and right understanding can grow. Nina: Why is it that one does not understand this in the beginning, that one only understands this in theory but not in the practice? Khun Sujin: Because it is beginning, and beginning is beginning. Sarah: The desire for result is so strong. Khun Sujin: The person who has not such strong desire can go on smoothly. But who has strong desire has to lessen it and he must first have the understanding of the right Path. ******** Nina. #72485 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 23, 2007 2:37 am Subject: Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/23/07 8:54:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I am glad you do not see the commentators as lyers. I think it is > good to go on discussing about samatha and vipassana. I value the > discussions with you, Howard. > -------------------------------------- Howard: As do I! Thank you for saying so, Nina. :-) ------------------------------------- It does not matter that we see things > > differently. ----------------------------------- Howard: I agree. ---------------------------------- > Nina. > ================ With metta, Howard #72486 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 23, 2007 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sammaditthi studycorner nilovg Hi Herman, correct. Thanks for pointing out the typo. Nina. Op 23-mei-2007, om 0:17 heeft Herman Hofman het volgende geschreven: > In the light of what you wrote above, might it be clearer and more > consistent to say, whatever action is performed? #72487 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 23, 2007 6:58 am Subject: Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. nilovg Hi Howard, It is higher than mundane jhana, it is lokuttara jhana, having nibbana as object. There is a lot more to say about ongoing mindfulness, I discussed also with Lodewijk. About prejudices agains jhana etc. Hold it, hold it. I have lack of time now. As to the Susima sutta, perhaps people can read id differently, this 'going beyond'. Susima, have you attained rupajhana and then gone beyond to arupa jhana? No. Meanwhile, I asked Suan as a Pali expert, but he has little time. But I find it very reasonable to consult the Co. The words: we are freed by wisdom alone is a very clear contrast to the jhana practice. Then again, the jhanalabhi have to start right from the beginning with all the stages of insight. Read the Visuddhimagga. At this time people are less talented, we are further away from the Buddha's time. No more arahats with the four Discriminations. Why take so much trouble with jhana practice? Moreover, don't you think that people are of different dispositions? I have heard all the arguments, I know them. Nina. Op 23-mei-2007, om 15:27 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Concentration of strength at least equal to that of the first jhana is > not jhana. #72488 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 23, 2007 3:54 am Subject: Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/23/07 10:03:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > It is higher than mundane jhana, it is lokuttara jhana, having > nibbana as object. --------------------------------------- Howard: I know what it means. But it is different from what the Buddha means when he speaks of the jhanas. --------------------------------------- > There is a lot more to say about ongoing mindfulness, I discussed > also with Lodewijk. About prejudices agains jhana etc. Hold it, hold > it. I have lack of time now. ---------------------------------------- Howard: As I said, ongoing mindfulness is very, very important to me. Especially mindfulness of the body. (And all the rest seems to follow.) ------------------------------------------ > As to the Susima sutta, perhaps people can read id differently, this > 'going beyond'. Susima, have you attained rupajhana and then gone > beyond to arupa jhana? No. --------------------------------------- Howard: I think that I may well have, though certainly not as a mastery. (Far from that!) But what I in particular have done isn't very important. ---------------------------------------- > Meanwhile, I asked Suan as a Pali expert, but he has little time. > > But I find it very reasonable to consult the Co. The words: we are > freed by wisdom alone is a very clear contrast to the jhana practice. -------------------------------------- Howard: There are several suttas that define that as involving "only" the rupa-jhanas. -------------------------------------- > > Then again, the jhanalabhi have to start right from the beginning > with all the stages of insight. Read the Visuddhimagga. At this time > people are less talented, we are further away from the Buddha's time. > No more arahats with the four Discriminations. Why take so much > trouble with jhana practice? Moreover, don't you think that people > are of different dispositions? I have heard all the arguments, I know > them. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, my practice is my practice. When itleads to jhanas, great. When not,that's fine too. It's all "just" cultivation. ------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ==================== With metta, Howard #72489 From: Sobhana Date: Wed May 23, 2007 8:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? shennieca Hi Robert, Thanks for your post, I really enjoyed reading what you wrote. I took the time to read it slowly and savoured it. :-) Mindfulness is like "living in the present moment", conventionally speaking, I find that some effort (is it viriya?) is needed to keep pulling the mind back and focus on the things that I am doing right now. I have a bad mental habit of having the mind drifting off and sometimes stopping at mid-sentence, forgetting what I wanted to say. I think mindfulness is like a mind-training exercise. I have a few books by Thich Nhat Hanh and he writes about mindfulness in daily life and sometimes I am sceptical about the things he wrote but it should be doable, I'll give it a try. Metta Elaine #72490 From: "sukinder" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 4:13 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: daana corner sukinderpal Hi Phil (and Han), I appreciate your good intentions for trying to bring peace. And I know that Han didn't mean any disrespect. Though I did take his comments personally to some extent, mostly I was irritated by the unwillingness to discuss. You may be right about the reason why Han reacted as he did and I think that your general position is quite close to Han's. So my comment below to you may also apply to him. ============================ > Han: If you want to label what I wrote as maana or lobha, > please go ahead. I would not mind. Phil: Sukinder, I don't think Han meant this in a disrespectful way. I know I would probably answer the same way. There is lobha and maana all the time, with just about every citta. Suk: But surely not when you are reflecting on a Sutta, no? Otherwise why would you trust any conclusions you make? ============================ Phil: As soon as we see something, or hear something, or taste something, there is lobha. If we are going to worry about lobha in our Dhamma practice, we won't get anywhere. Suk: When you truly understand and believe what you said in the first sentence, are you not in effect, getting somewhere? There can't be lobha arising with patipatti. Only that what you and others call practice is in fact not so. This imo is because you fail to understand the Dhamma at the pariyatti level. So yes, the problem is in fact lobha, but not the lobha that might arise now and then, but rather the one which is convinced about calling wrong practice right. Right practice can arise at anytime, I don't deny that and very much encourage it. But alas this won't happen if one keeps thinking along the lines as reflected in the second sentence above. ============================ Phil: That's what I would answer, though I don't know if that's what Han meant. THere has to be faith in the Buddha's teaching from the beginning, Suk: All Buddhists claim to have saddha in the Dhamma, yet not all have Right Understanding. I mentioned faith in dana, sila and samatha bhavana in my post to Han, and I think most Buddhists as do people of other religions have this kind of faith, but they mistake it for the other kind, namely one which comes only with some level of Right Understanding. ============================ Phil: and confidence that what one is doing is helping to subdue the fires of greed, hatred and delusion (the kind that fails to see that sense pleasures are harmful) from the beginning. Beginning to subdue the intensity of these flames is far more important than trying in vain to root out the subtle forms of clinging to self and whatnot that will be there no matter what! Suk: I think you got it backwards. What you do how is it then any different from peoples of other religions? How effective is their "doings" in leading them anywhere close to the understanding of anatta and conditionality? I'd say it sends them even further away into the grips of 'self view' and I think this is what is happening with most Buddhists. And just as those people believe that "they" grow kinder, more loving or wiser, the same kind of 'self-referential' stories are spun by Buddhists. The very Teaching of the Buddha which is meant to lead to the eradication of kilesas, namely understanding dhammas as conditioned, is being pushed to the back in preference to 'self view' which instead *identifies* with those same dhammas and therefore does absolutely nothing to this end. True there will be accumulations of other kinds of kusala, but this happens not because one "intends" it, but rather because of past accumulations of the same. In other words, it is past accumulated kusala which is the primary condition for there to be kusala now and not any intention. But having identified with 'self' and 'doings', instead of seeing 'conditionality', we believe that it all happens because of 'intention'. It is sometimes implied that those of us who believe in 'no control' that we are disregarding the development of other forms of kusala. But this is not true. No one can stop any kusala from arising when the conditions are there. In fact understanding conditionality and the practice of satipatthana in daily life *adds* to the possibility of these other kusala becoming pure and accumulating. This is because 'self' and 'self interest' does not interfere. I think it is the blindness of self view which conditions fear of losing the chance of developing kusala and makes it hard for you and others to truly appreciate anatta and conditionality. ========================= Phil: Whether this saddha is the saddha of Abhidhamma that rises and falls away and has this or that paramattha dhamma as an object is not the point when we are dealing with the blazing inferno of hatred and lust! Suk: You are saying that you can make a valid statement about dealing with 'hatred and lust' while at the same time disregard the workings of one of the universal dhammas required to the understanding of the same? You are also asking to disregard the reality of the moment in preference to a story / fiction in order that "self" may then *act*? This is Mara speaking Phil! And what do you mean by 'saddha of Abhidhamma' and how is this different from any other saddha? ======================== Phil: That's the way I see it. It is saddha that what we are doing is helping to make ourselves less harmful to ourselves and others, at a conventional level. Suk: Such kind of conventional perspective has self view at its root. Self View can never be good in the short nor the long run. ====================== Phil: It is saddha that is confidence based on what we see happening in our lives. Suk: The proximate cause for Saddha (of the Buddha kind), is the 'factors of Stream Entry', in other words those dhammas which are connected with vijja or knowledge of the 4NT. What you state here, doesn't come anywhere close to this imo. ======================== Phil: If we understand from our experience what the object of saddha is at a paramattha level, great. If not, there is not much point in thinking about it. Again my opinion. Suk: We won't know with just pariyatti and a little patipatti. But we can know from the Dhamma and by inference. If the interest is towards understanding the present moment instead of thinking about having to do something special at another time and place, then we know where the saddha is. Dukkha and the cause of Dukkha arises now, any saddha must be in accord with this understanding. Thinking that another time and place is more conducive reflects just this lack of confidence that in fact Dhammas are same here as they are there. And because of this lack of confidence, patipatti is *never* going to arise anywhere, in the morning or at the retreat, because saddha would need to arise then to condition sati and panna! Any shift from "now" is to fall into the trap of self and its many agendas. And this wouldn't be saddha. Thinking about saddha does not have to be with concern, but what is clearly 'not' saddha but mistaken for it, this 'ought to be' of concern. After all this arises with all those various states which we mistakenly take for kusala that which is not. Remember Phil, I suggested to you once about the "Cheating Dhammas", that these arises particularly under those circumstances in which we feel concern about "our" practice. I know there is nothing new here. But you asked for it! ;-) Hope this is not too long though. Metta, Sukinder #72491 From: "sukinder" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 4:13 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: daana corner sukinderpal Hi Herman, ================= Herman: It is my experience that there is nothing useful in having self-views pointed out by someone who is equally as mired in them. Sukin: What do you suggest then? But actually, in expressing our opposing opinions aren't we saying in effect the same thing, namely that your view is wrong and that mine is right? I think it is OK though, that while we are all in the process of developing and correcting our views, that we voice them in any way we can. In fact I think discussions are a very important part of the process of correcting one's views. --------- Herman: The words of Jesus come to mind:"And why point out the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the log in your own eye?". Sukin: Again, pointing out the splinter in the other's eye does not necessarily mean that one is not aware of anything being in one's own eye or might be. Thanks for writing, I really appreciated it. :-) Metta, Sukinder #72492 From: Sobhana Date: Wed May 23, 2007 9:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? shennieca Hello Nina, Thank you for taking the time to reply. You are very fortunate to be able to understand the Buddha's Dhamma and the Abhidhamma. Thank you for writing and sharing the Abdhidhamma book that you wrote (on the internet website). May beings with little dusts in their eyes gain some enlightenment from reading your book. Thank you for your effort in helping to preserve and prolong the Dhamma. Sadhu to you! With respect, Elaine #72493 From: "Phil" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 9:31 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle philofillet Hi Han and Sarah and all Well Han, this is a very suitable sutta you have found. Thank you. I finally found the one I was looking for. It's in the MN sutta I was discussing with Andrew about a week ago. Some actions which are painful now bring pleasant results, whereas some actions which are pleasant now bring painful results. With Andrew, I was discussing in context of a basic discretionary wisdom that would see which was which and make wise choices. In the case of painful now/pleasant later in this sutta, the struggle to lead the holy life is done with tears, a hard struggle. I am rushing now to wrap up some e-mails because our computer is going to the shop tomorrow morning. Don't even have time to go to the next room to give you the relevant sutta reference. Oh yes, I do. (This is right effort!) It is MN 45 paragraphs 3 and 6. May I postpone this thread until I get back. I will provide the relevant MN passage at that time. Will be interesting to look at along with the ones you've provided, especially the below, which seems very close. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Phil, > > Does the following paragraph ring the bell? > > "Furthermore, the monk notices this: 'When I live > according to my pleasure, unskillful mental qualities > increase in me & skillful qualities decline. When I > exert myself with stress & pain, though, unskillful > qualities decline in me & skillful qualities increase. > Why don't I exert myself with stress & pain?' So he > exerts himself with stress & pain, and while he is > exerting himself with stress & pain, unskillful > qualities decline in him, & skillful qualities > increase. Then at a later time he would no longer > exert himself with stress & pain. Why is that? Because > he has attained the goal for which he was exerting > himself with stress & pain. That is why, at a later > time, he would no longer exert himself with stress & > pain.?E> > If yes, it is from MN 101 Devadaha Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.101.than.html > > #72494 From: "sukinder" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 4:30 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Introduction sukinderpal Dear Ven. Pannabahulo, Thanks for clarifying the below. It was I who suggested that K. Sujin was alone with you. Apart from knowing next to nothing about the vinaya, this reflects my own lack of wisdom/judgement. But that would be too much to expect anyway. :-) With respect, Sukin _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pannabahulo Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 1:13 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Introduction Dear Dhamma friends, I wish to clarify one point that I see has been raised by some people. AT NO TIME WAS I EVER ALONE WITH AJAN SUCHIN.There was always a man present - he is a doctor - and several ladies. I have no idea where the idea that Ajan Suchin and I were alone came from; but this is an example of how defilements can arise and assumptions and/or accusations made on the basis of them. It also shows that the suggestions that we were alone shows a lack of respect for Ajan Suchin.She is fully aware of monk's vinaya and would never - I just know after meeting her twice - cause a monk to breach his discipline. I hope this puts the matter to rest; there were plenty of witnesses in the room that day if you still have doubts. With metta - and some amazement, Pannabahulo bhikkhu #72495 From: "Phil" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 9:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: daana corner philofillet Hi Sukin > Phil: > > Sukinder, I don't think Han meant this in a disrespectful way. I know > I would probably answer the same way. There is lobha and maana all the > time, with just about every citta. > > > > Suk: But surely not when you are reflecting on a Sutta, no? Otherwise why > would you trust any conclusions you make? > Hmm...interesting question. I'll think about it during my time without a computer! There is certainly a lot of lobha when reading suttas, of course. But lobha for something like a sutta is fine if that sutta helps dilute forms of greed and hatred that lead to transgression. At this point I don't see how attachment to the Buddha's teaching would interefere with it helping with gross defilements. Stress on "gross." Thanks for the response. I never feel guilty about not responding fully to your posts, because I know it helps you work things out to write them out. Metta, Phil #72496 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 11:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati, to sarah wisdomcompas... Dear Sarah, i m reading two books downloaded from buddhanet.net , one is by Ven. Narada Thera, and the other one by a burmese author Dr. Mehm Tin Mon and one book by ledi sayadaw. surely, i would like to ask my doubts, as abhidhamma is a difficult subject to understand. i have downloaded Nina's book as well. thanks for suggestion of sending the audio and Nina's book, i would sure keep that in mind. i have one question to ask; what is application of abhidhamma. i know Nina's book is just about that, but i like to have few lines so that i would keep that in mind while reading. thanks with metta nidhi #72497 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 23, 2007 12:01 pm Subject: re: impermanent versus inconstant nilovg Hi Larry, --------- L: Maybe sa~n~naa remembers the other rupas in the kalaapa from previous consciousnesses and takes the present rupa as a sign of the whole. --------- N: Sa~n~naa does not take an object that is different from citta. When the citta thinks of the concept flower, the whole, then also sa~n~naa has the same object while it supports citta, performing its function of remembering and marking. --------- L:When we see a flower we know there is more to it than visible object. Perhaps this is why it is so difficult to see _only_ visible data. Even with wisdom we know there is more to it. ------- N: When we perceive a flower we know it is thinking, not seeing. That is the way to learn. It is important to learn the difference between such moments. Nina. #72498 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 23, 2007 12:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati, to sarah nilovg Dear Nidhi Op 23-mei-2007, om 20:34 heeft wisdomcompassion het volgende geschreven: > i have one question to ask; what is application of abhidhamma ------------ To know that all phenomena in your life are conditioned and that you have no mastery over them. They are only elements devoid of self. First we learn this in theory and then the Abhidhamma is applied through mindfulness and understanding of the reality presenting itself now through one of the six doorways. Nina. #72499 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 12:34 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... Dear Sarah, and all > my understanding is that : > > 1) the danger in exerting effort is that the self (atta) exerts the > > effort, there is also possiblity of motive being escape from dukkha, > > desire for wisdom,etc. so this way self strenghtens itself, and hence > > makes it difficult for the person to attain that very thing (e.g. > > sati, panna, wisdom, nibbana etc.) > .... > S: Yes, not bad at all. There is effort with almost every citta. It can be > right or wrong effort. If it is effort with desire, then of course it's > wrong effort. ============================= N: no sarah, its not necessarily true that there is effort with almost every citta. effort is there when sati is absent, when sati is present, there are moments when effort or "I" making effort is absent. ============================= > .... > > 2) formal meditation and (satipatthana) inherits the danger of self > > effort. > .... > S: In the development of satipatthana, there's no 'self effort'. So we > need to learn more about what satipattana really is. Can there be > satipatthana at any time other than now? Can any dhamma be known other > than that which appears now? ============================= N: yes, exactly the same thing i believe. to me it is understanding the Dhamma as they are, and its quite easier to see things as they are in Meditation. while doing other activities its rather difficult to watch dhamma. ============================= > > > > i fully agree on these two points. but i still say that there is a > > third road between effort and non effort. which includes both > > actually. <...> but if **by any chance** it so > > happens that volition is not present and awareness of arising and > > passing is there, that moment is very pure. as in that moment when > > sati watches the dhammas, since volition is absent, the sankharas > > cannot be made. > ... > S: To be honest, Nidhi, I don't really understand this. Cetana > (volition)is a universal cetasika which arises with every single citta > (even for an arahant). Sankhara khandha (which you referred to in part I > snipped), includes all cetanas plus all other cetasikas except vedana and > sanna. ============================ N: here , i have explained the process of nirjara. what i m trying to say is that, it is possible to watch dhamma without volition (Sankhara which is fourth khanda) being present. in meditation one can do it. though its quite difficult to learn it, very difficult indeed. but i m talking about practical thing here. ============================ > > When there is awareness, there is effort, there is volition and many other > cetasikas. > > You may mean that in the case of the arahant, there is no more kamma - the > good cittas are inoperative and won't bring any result. ============================ N: again not necessarily. it is certainly possible that there is awareness and volition is totally missing. please watch your mind. you will see it. the whole process is alive just now! in our case as well when volition is absent and sati is present, there no kamma. why to talk about arhant. whatever dhamma come, they fall away, but don't add to conditioning(if one watches without volition). one can learn it. ============================ > ... > >so the dhamma so arisen dont add to anushayas. if that > > happens repeatedly the anushayas come up, and if sati is there and > > volition is absent that anushayas also falls away. > S: The anusayas lie dormant and are eradicated at the different stages of > enlightenment. Again, we can't say volition is absent. ============================== N: of course it is. eradication can never take place if volition is present. ============================== > > this is the whole basis of meditation. first understanding things as > > they are (knowing dhamma as it is), > S: OK, this is why we have to be very precise about what dhammas are > theoretically first. What do you understand them to be? ============================== N: yes, but it doesnt take much of time, even if one takes very pessimistic approach; i dont think it would take more than one year to an average human being. one can learn by basics. almost every body is aware of what craving, aversion, anger, fear, hurt, opinions, confusion etc. are. also it doesnt require much of intelligence to understand the five senses and what we experience through them. the difficult part though; is to learn how to be aware when these things arise. and there is nothing theoritical about it. ============================= > > and secondly stopping the process > > of making sanskaras. > ... > S: Sankhara means conditioned. All dhammas (except for nibbana) are > conditioned to arise. No one can stop them, not even a Buddha. Only when > an arahant attains to parinibbana at the end of life will there be a > 'stopping' of 'the process' through the complete eradication of attachment > and ignorance. ============================= N: here i meant learning how conditioning stops. Dhammas do arise, and will arise, but further conditioning can be stopped. i mean to say what ever dhamma arises, if its watched by sati, and volition is absent, conditioning doesnot take place. ============================= > <..> > > i have tried to put the theoritical part of my understanding here. so > > what i actually mean by self effort is not effort of > > volition/ego/me/mine but self as it presents itself as just awareness > > and direction of mind, and my personal opinion is that one can learn > > it, though its quite slow and difficult road. > ... > S: The main point is that it is understanding, awareness and other > wholesome cetasikas which assist the citta to 'direct the mind' in a wise > way. It's never you or I. ============================== N: i m saying just that, isn't it? ============================== > S: Anusaya refers to latent tendencies for particular kinds of > unwholesomeness. So even if there is no anger arising now, the anusaya for > such is still there because it hasn't been eradicated. I don't think we > can say 'whatever dhamma.....etc'. =============================== N: i mean to say that the dhamma that arise. ============================== > .... > >but i surely believe that in meditation such > > pure moments occur more frequently. > S: In Pali, bhavana refers to the development of understanding. So if > there is bhavana now, there is 'pure' meditation now! ============================== N: yes bhavna means development of understanding, but i was talking of nirjara. ============================= > Thankyou also for your reference to the 1st sutta in SN about crossing the > flood. Not over or under-exerting - the Middle Way. ============================ N: I m not sure that we are meeting here again. i think buddha here is talking of effort and non effort. the thing which we were discussing in this post. that was the reason i thought it was a relevant sutta. ============================ > > Lots on this under 'Floods, crossing the flood' in 'Useful Posts' if you > have time to take a look and give any comments on the messages there. > (It's a favourite sutta of Ken H's if I recall!) > > Metta, > > Sarah ============================= N: thanks for recommending that. Metta, Nidhi #72500 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed May 23, 2007 8:45 am Subject: Correction Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/23/07 10:54:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka writes: > >> (Nina speaking) As to the Susima sutta, perhaps people can read id >> differently, this 'going beyond'. Susima, have you attained rupajhana and then >> gone >> beyond to arupa jhana? No. > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I think that I may well have, though certainly not as a mastery. (Far > from that!) But what I in particular have done isn't very important. > ===================== I have to laugh at myself, Nina! I thoroughly misunderstood you here! I missed your writing "Susima", which led me, ridiculously(!), to thinking you were asking about me, though I couldn't for the life of me understand why. In any case, please disregard my answer! LOL! I understand now what you were pointing to, I think. You quoted from the sutta, and you are saying that one reading might be that when Susima said "no", he was saying that it was not so that he attained-rupajhana-and-then-went-beyond-to-arupajhanas, and one way in which that negation could be understood is that he attained no jhanas at all. But, Nina, truly, that is an extraordinarily implausible reading, as I will now explain. Actually, what you quoted was the following from the PTS: Now, the translation Ven Thanissaro gave here was the following: "Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form? " "No, Lord." Neither translation at all involves denying attaining jhanas entirely. The reading is clear and unambiguous. It denies *dwelling* in those stages where the rupa-world is transcended and the immaterial reached. In no way does it deny attaining rupa-jhanas. Such a reading would constitute an enormous misreading. With metta, Howard #72501 From: "m. nease" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 3:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati m_nease Hello Nidhi and Sarah, Nidhi, thanks for introducing the concept of nirjara to the list--at least I don't think I've seen it here before. Hope you don't mind if I ask if you see a difference between Jainism and Buddhadhamma? mike #72502 From: "sukinder" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 10:52 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: daana corner sukinderpal Hi Phil (and Han), Phil: Thanks for the response. I never feel guilty about not responding fully to your posts, because I know it helps you work things out to write them out. Suk: But wouldn't that drive me further into my views, after all I never seem to admit that I might be wrong? Just kidding! I appreciate the above and you should not feel obliged to respond. If only Han had said something along the lines... Metta, Sukinder #72503 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 23, 2007 4:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and Reasons for Impermanence lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for all the research. No mano vatthu so Ptsm. must be referring to manayatana when it uses mano even though the context is vatthu. Larry #72504 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 23, 2007 4:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanent versus inconstant. lbidd2 Hi Azita, A: "What experiences the facsimile?" L: 5-door consciousness. Say you wear glasses and you are looking at an apple. Glasses on, clear apple. Glasses off, blurred apple. Clear, blurred, clear, blurred. Based on many experiences we know the visible data of the apple doesn't change from clear to blurred. It is the visual experience that changes. Larry #72505 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 23, 2007 4:44 pm Subject: Re: Anicca and Anatta - An Addendum Re: [dsg] "Ordinary" Impermanence lbidd2 Hi Herman, H: "Is the division nama/rupa experienced, or is it a product of thought/analysis?" L: I vote for thought/analysis. Larry #72506 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed May 23, 2007 4:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: impermanent versus inconstant lbidd2 Hi Nina, N: "When we perceive a flower we know it is thinking, not seeing. That is the way to learn. It is important to learn the difference between such moments." L: I prefer: when we see a flower we know there is visible data, tangible data, scent, taste, and nutriment. All realities. Larry #72507 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? egberdina Hi RobK, On 23/05/07, rjkjp1 wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sobhana > wrote: > > The arise and fall is much faster than electricty or anything we can > conceptualize. And this rise and fall is neverending, whether > walking slow or fast. It might seem that citta or vedana can last > for split seconds- but actually they are gone even before they are > known. However, panna is also a momentary reality that arises and > passes away exactly as rapidly as citta. So panna can arise > momentarily and know the nature of its object. > > I used to have the idea: first get the mind nice and still and then > ponder at leisure the changing patterns. However, isn't this still > caught up in a subtle idea that `mind' somehow exists. > It is natural that mental states are involved in concepts but in > between there can be, sometimes, little flashes of insight that know > the characteristic of paramattha dhamma (any of the khandhas such as > seeing or sound or feeling, or hardness, or greed). > Your theory reminds me of MN125. "This is impossible, good Aggivessana, it cannot come to pass that a monk abiding diligent, ardent, self-resolute, should attain one-pointedness of mind." Then Prince Jayasena, having declared to the novice Aciravata that this was impossible and could not come to pass, rising from his seat, departed." The Buddha thinks this of your theory. "What is the good of that, Aggivessana? That Prince Jayasena, living as he does in the midst of sense-pleasures, enjoying sense-pleasures, being consumed by thoughts of sense-pleasures, burning with the fever of sense-pleasures, eager in the search for sense-pleasures, should know or see or attain or realize that which can be known by renunciation, seen by renunciation, attained by renunciation, realized by renunciation - such a situation does not exist." The rest of MN125 is very instructive. It starts of with the acquisition of faith. "A householder or a householder's son or one born in another family hears that dhamma. Having heard that dhamma he gains faith in the Tathagata. Endowed with this faith that he has acquired, he reflects in this way: 'The household life is confined and dusty, going forth is in the open; it is not easy for one who lives in a house to fare the Brahma-faring wholly fulfilled, wholly pure, polished like a conch-shell. Suppose now that I, having cut off hair and beard, having put on saffron robes, should go forth from home into homelessness?' After a time, getting rid of his wealth, be it small or great, getting rid of his circle of relations, be it small or great, having cut off his hair and beard, having put on saffron robes, he goes forth from home into homelessness." It progresses through various steps to the jhanas. "He by allaying initial thought and discursive thought, with the mind subjectively tranquilized and fixed on one point, enters on and abides in the second meditation4 which is devoid of initial and discursive thought, is born of concentration and is rapturous and joyful. By the fading out of rapture, he dwells with equanimity, attentive and clearly conscious, and experiences in his person that joy of which the ariyans say: 'Joyful lives he who has equanimity and is mindful,' and he enters and abides in the third meditation. By getting rid of joy, by getting rid of anguish, by the going down of his former pleasures and sorrows, he enters and abides in the fourth meditation which has neither anguish nor joy, and which is entirely purified by equanimity and mindfulness. It culminates in, upon perfection of the jhanas "Then with the mind composed, quite purified, quite clarified, without blemish, without defilement, grown pliant and workable, fixed, immovable, he directs his mind to the knowledge .................. Your theory of a non-meditative householders path to vipassana finds no support in the sayings of the Buddha. Herman #72509 From: "m_nease" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 5:17 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner m_nease Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > 3. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome and > the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome and the root of the > wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is > straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at > this true Dhamma." > > Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako akusala~nca pajaanaati, akusalamuula~nca > pajaanaati. Kusala~nca pajaanaati, kusalamuula~nca. Ettaavataapi kho > aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme > aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. > > M: "D'you reckon that this would fall under BB's opinion of mundane > right view or supramundane right view? The final phrase suggests the e right view leading > irreversibly to emancipation. This is implied by the phrase 'perfect > confidence' and 'arrived at this true Dhamma'. My conclusion too. If I'd looked harder at the Paali you'd already provided, I could have saved you the trouble of the above--thanks. > M: "Do you think that there is a 'conventional' right view re: > understanding the unwholesome, the root of unwholesome etc.? If so, > do you think do you think that this conventional (intellectual) right > view is a prerequisite to supramundane right view?...I'd be > interested in any documentation from the Paali texts either for or > against the idea." > > Scott: Its a good question, Mike, and I'd only be hazarding a guess. > I'd say 'conventional' might tend to mislead. Do you think, in > relation to right view, that it is pa~n~na that would have to arise in > order to render any view 'right'? This is how I would tend to see it. I know of no reason that pa~n~naa can't arise with a concept as object--so maybe that's the trick. I'd still be interested in explicit verification of this from the texts, though. > This being the case, then, 'conventional' would only refer to the > intellectual understanding that is 'right' but not yet to the level of > the path. And not yet to the level of vipassanaa, I assume? > The support for this assertion in the above begins with the terms > 'pajanati' and 'hoti', which are used, I think, to describe a process. > According to the PTS PED, 'pajaanaati' is "[pa+jaanaati] to know, > find out, come to know, understand, distinguish...' To me this is the > 'function' of pa~n~na. What about pa~n~naa functioning below the level of vipassanaa? > 'Hoti' is (?) a synonym for 'bhavati', which is related to the root > 'bhuu', meaning 'to become...to grow'. Bhuu is also a root for the > related 'bhaaveti', which is '...to beget, produce, increase, > cultivate, develop...', (PTS PED). Right-- > I'd say that right view, prior to the arising of the path, is the > development of pa~n~na. What do you think? I'll have to keep > checking to get more from the texts. Pa~n~naa with regard to concepts (e.g. "There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed" etc.) or only with regard to dhammas? Of course only the latter (as I understand it) can be vipassanaa. Hope I'm making sense. Thanks for you time and patience. mike #72510 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 6:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > >> > Your theory reminds me of MN125. > > > The rest of MN125 is very instructive. > > It starts of with the acquisition of faith. > > "A householder or a householder's son or one born in another family > hears that dhamma. Having heard that dhamma he gains faith in the > Tathagata. Endowed with this faith that he has acquired, he reflects > in this way: 'The household life is confined and dusty, going forth is > in the open; it is not easy for one who lives in a house to fare the > Brahma-faring wholly fulfilled, wholly pure, polished like a > conch-shell. Suppose now that I, having cut off hair and beard, having > put on saffron robes, should go forth from home into homelessness?' > After a time, getting rid of his wealth, be it small or great, getting > rid of his circle of relations, be it small or great, having cut off > his hair and beard, having put on saffron robes, he goes forth from > home into homelessness." > > It progresses through various steps to the jhanas. > _________ Dear Herman Very good. I see you revere the path of the monk. They are indeed worthy of the highest respect and offerings. Hence the great merit in giving dana to a monk. We householders live a dusty life. Robert #72511 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 6:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner egberdina Hi Scott, On 16/05/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > > Scott: Certain phrases are prone to misinterpretation: > > 1) "...an evolving process of meditative cultivation..." > > 2) "...will transmute this intellectual view into direct vision..." > > 3) "...when right view prevails...wrong view prevails..." > > In 1), this should be considered, in my opinion, to be about the > 'development of dhammas', not a person doing any 'meditative > cultivation'. > Sanganikarama Sutta (AN.VI.68). Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu attached to coming into contact with another, a lover of a crowd should take pleasure in seclusion is not a possibility. Not secluded and the mind not delighting in seclusion should seize a sign is not a possibility. When the mind does not take the sign, that the bhikkhu should be complete in right view is not a possibility. Without completing right view, he should be complete in right concentration is not a posibility. Without completing right concentration, that he should dispel bonds is not a possibility. Without dispelling bonds that he should realize extinction is not a possibility. Herman #72512 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 8:10 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for the sutta. Me: "In 1), this should be considered, in my opinion, to be about the 'development of dhammas', not a person doing any 'meditative cultivation'." Scott: Sparse as usual, I assume you wish to speak to the above via the below: Sanganikarama Sutta (AN.VI.68). "Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu attached to coming into contact with another, a lover of a crowd should take pleasure in seclusion is not a possibility. Not secluded and the mind not delighting in seclusion should seize a sign is not a possibility. When the mind does not take the sign, that the bhikkhu should be complete in right view is not a possibility. Without completing right view, he should be complete in right concentration is not a posibility. Without completing right concentration, that he should dispel bonds is not a possibility. Without dispelling bonds that he should realize extinction is not a possibility." Scott: Compulsive as usual, I presume to add the paa.li (both paragraphs, the other about not being attached...): (Sa"nga.nikaaraama sutta.m) (Saavatthinidaana.m) 14. So vata bhikkhave bhikkhuu sa"nga.nikaaraamo sa"nga.nikaarato sa"nga.nikaaraamata.m anuyutto, ga.naaraamo ga.narato ga.naaraamata.m anuyutto eko paviveke abhiramissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. Eko paviveke anabhiramanto cittassa nimitta.m ga.nahissatiiti neta.m .thà na.m vijjati. Cittassa nimitta.m aga.nhanto sammaadi.t.thi.m paripuuressatiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. Sammaadi.t.ti.m aparipuuretvaa sammaasamà dhi.m paripuuressatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. Sammasamaadhi.m aparipuuretvaa sa~n~nojanaani pajahissatiiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. Sa~n~nojanaani appahaaya nibbaana.m sacchikarissatiti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. So vata bhikkhave bhikkhuu na sa"nga.nikaaraamo na sa"nga.nikaarato na sa"nga.nikaaraamata.m anuyutto, na ga.naaraamo na ga.narato na ga.naaraamata.m anuyutto, eko paviveke ahiramissatiiti. .Thaanameta.m vijjati. Eko paviveke abhiramanto cittassa nimitta.m ga.nahissatiiti .thaanameta.m vijjati. Cittassa nimitta.m ga.nhanto sammaadi.t.thi.m paripuuressatiiti .thaanameta.m vijjati. Sammaadi.t.thi.m paripuuretvaa sammaasamaadhi.m paripuuressatiiti .thaanameta.m vijjati. Sammaasamà dhi.m paripuuretvaa sa~n~nojanaani pajahissatiiti .thaanameta.m vijjati. Sa~n~nojanaani pahaaya nibbaana.m sacchikarissatiiti .thaanameta.m vijjatii, ti. Scott: If you could kindly comment on the sutta, then I'll have something to respond to; I'm not trying to be difficult, you know - I can almost imagine you writing, "The sutta speaks for itself", or some such - but I'd appreciate something from you as well to start. Meanwhile, I'll get on with looking at some of the terms. Sincerely, Scott. #72513 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 8:29 pm Subject: Re: Are we responsible for our actions? kenhowardau Hi Nina, ------------ <. . .> N: > Every activity as usual, but in between we can 'study' nama and rupa and learn to be aware of them. As Sarah said, no matter on the surfboard, everywhere there are nama and rupa. Do you find that too? ------------- Yes, Nina, I am always glad to remember there are - right now - only namas and rupas. (Not in the books, not in the theory, but right now!) This might be a good opportunity to expand on a thought I expressed here a couple of weeks ago. It might not be relevant, so don't worry if it doesn't make sense - I'm just thinking out loud: It seems to me that the commentaries and the Abhidhamma try to make things easy for us. They don't throw us into the deep end. They use concepts in the same way we (beginners) might use them. And so, if they were to talk about surfing, for example, we would know they meant the concept known as surfing. Then they would explain that, even when we are surfing, there are really only namas and rupas. However, in the suttas, if the Buddha were to talk about surfing he not be talking about a concept; he would be talking about nanas and rupas. In other words, the sutta method skips over the helpful explanations that the Abhidhamma and commentaries give. The suttas throw us straight into the deep end. If I am on the right track here it won't be anything new to you. But it might be new to some people who blithely say the suttas use a "conventional" method of teaching. There's nothing conventional about it at all! It is even more directly about namas and rupas than the "ultimate" method is! We have to study the Abhidhamma and the suttas together. If we only study Abhidhamma we can develop sloppy thinking. Without realising it, we can fall into the trap of thinking there are two realities - a conventional one and an ultimate one. It will only be sloppy thinking, and in theory we will know differently, but we might think that conventional skills such as surfing can be intentionally developed, while ultimate skills, such as satipatthana, can be developed by conditions only. In fact, of course, there are only ever namas and rupas, and nothing is ever developed by anyone's free will. I'll leave it there for now. If you want to know more you'll have to buy my book. :-) (Just joking, of course,) Ken H #72514 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 23, 2007 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: impermanent versus inconstant nilovg Hi Larry, but only one object at a time is experienced through one of the six doors. When seeing arises it experiences visible object and then this visible object falls away together with the other rupas of the kalapa. When the flower is touched, solidity appears. Or temperature or motion. We do not need to think of the other rupas in a kalapa, they cannot be experienced. Nina. Op 24-mei-2007, om 1:50 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I prefer: when we see a flower we know there is visible data, > tangible data, scent, taste, and nutriment. All realities. #72515 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Wed May 23, 2007 11:58 pm Subject: Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... hello Mike thanks Mike. it's already there in books,important thing is to learn it. about jainism and buddhism, if one goes by texts then they are two extremes. so there is great deal of difference. but strikingly the discription of kaivalya, by lord mahavir, and nibbana by Lord buddha (both have described in negative terms, and almost similarly) is very much similar. further more there is quite a great deal of similarity in the stories contained in the scriptures. the uttradhayana sutra of jainism is quite similar to dhammapada. at certain places one feels that either one of them is translation of another. even the names and stories of pacchek buddhas are similar. a lots of other stories as well. even some of the jatak stories of Buddha are contained in jain texts. but dissimilarities are so wide that one has to decide what one would follow. but both are very deep. one problem with jainism is that i think that the books are not translated properly. so translation is totally different from what the text says at times. the practices by Lord Mahavir are totally different from buddha's recommendation. its severe austerity whereas Lord Buddha preached middle way. non violence of jainism is another extreme thing. jainsim believe in soul, buddha refuted it.Buddha has given detailed description about workings of mind, whereas Mahavir has given detailed description about all other things about which we feel curious about, like universe, cosmology, the structure of atoms and matter etc. when i saw the similarities of stories and reflections, it made me very doubtful as to what is true. since i m not capable to find out so i read with the attitude that whosoever said that knew certainly more than me, so i must learn it instead of questioning. as long as people following the two religions, there is not much difference. both understand words of two great men by reflecting, and thinking. though mediation is preserved in buddhist world, and austerity in jainism. both believe their system is what one leads to nibbana, and both have deep faith in their scriptures and the masters (buddha and mahavir). but that is not new i think; as these differences were prevalent during time of buddha and mahavir as well. that time as well people had to decide what they would like to follow, and scriptures of both streams claim that they became arhant by following their system. the iddhis of the two streams are also very similar. though there is a great difference in terminlogy, but common words like appamad, asavas, nirjara, kamma etc. are same in both systems. the best thing about buddhist scriptures is that it is very simple to understand, and discourses of buddha are very practical and doable. i couldnt find such a thing anywhere, neither in upnishads, gita or jain books. and buddha deliberately talked only about how to be free from suffering, and discard other less important things.so i m buddhist in all practiacal ways. for me personally Buddha's words touch me more deeply than other books, and i m more inclined towards buddhist scriptures for their simplicity and practical value. i think buddha did great help to humanity by considering relevance of teaching, and investigating from middle; that is cause and effect. metta nidhi > > Nidhi, thanks for introducing the concept of nirjara to the list--at least I don't think I've seen it here before. > > Hope you don't mind if I ask if you see a difference between Jainism and Buddhadhamma? > > mike > > > #72516 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed May 23, 2007 11:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? nilovg Dear Ken, The Vinaya, the Suttanta, the Abhidhamma, they are the same teaching, helping us to understand conditioned dhammas as impermanent, dukkha, non-self. There are conventional notions but these are not real in the same sense as paramattha dhammas. Take kamma and vipaka, we never know what kamma will produce which vipaaka at a particular moment. This we can experience in daily life. I had such an unpleasant surprise last night. Just taking a book out to look up some text and I lost balanace and fell down flat on the floor. I had a lot of pain, and, no awareness. But shortly afterwards I remembered the Theri who climbed a mountain, fell down and was reminded of reality. When climbing on a rock no accident, but in one's home accidents happen. When there is no awareness there is an idea of my pain, my body which hurts. Kamma and vipaka is one example, but then the arising of kusala and akusala citta, our reactions to the objects that are experienced are also unpredictable. We never, never know what happens the next moment. That is a lesson I find. I find the teaching of elements, dhaatus, enormously helpful. Several elements have to concur so that a dhamma arises. Nina. Op 24-mei-2007, om 5:29 heeft kenhowardau het volgende geschreven: > We have to study the Abhidhamma and the suttas together. If we only > study Abhidhamma we can develop sloppy thinking. Without realising > it, we can fall into the trap of thinking there are two realities - a > conventional one and an ultimate one. It will only be sloppy > thinking, and in theory we will know differently, but we might think > that conventional skills such as surfing can be intentionally > developed, while ultimate skills, such as satipatthana, can be > developed by conditions only. In fact, of course, there are only ever > namas and rupas, and nothing is ever developed by anyone's free will. #72517 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 12:16 am Subject: Unintelligent Brother and the Cloth christine_fo... Hello all, Can anyone remind me please of the scripture where a Bhikkhu is a little ashamed of his younger brother who is 'not so bright'. He neglects to invite the younger brother to a function which the Buddha will be attending - all other bhikkhus are invited. The Buddha sees what is happening and askes the younger brother to meditate (?) while stroking a cloth. As he strokes, the cloth becomes soiled and this brings Understanding to the younger brother, which was not dependent on intellectual knowledge. I would be grateful for any assistance. Nice to see how energetic DSG is ... and g'day to all my old friends :-) metta Chris ---The trouble is you think you have time--- #72518 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner egberdina Hi Scott, On 24/05/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > > Dear Herman, > > Thanks for the sutta. > > Me: "In 1), this should be considered, in my opinion, to be about the > 'development of dhammas', not a person doing any 'meditative > cultivation'." > > Scott: Sparse as usual, I assume you wish to speak to the above via > the below: > Yes, and by way of explanation, I will quote another sutta. http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara4/6-ch\ akkanipata/004-devatavaggo-e.html 8. Attakari Sutta The one who is doing "004.08 Then a certain Brahmin approached The Blessed One exchanged friendly greetings, sat on a side and said: Good Gotama I am of this view and say: Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others. Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say `Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' Brahmin, is there an occasion for making effort, Yes, good one. Brahmin, when there is an occasion for making effort, when there is a sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and the otherness. Brahmin, when there is a going forth ... re ... ,when there is a going forward, ... re ... when there is firmness, ... re ... when there is uprightness ... re ... when there is endurance, ... re ... when there is a sentient being enduring, this is the being doing and the otherness. Brahmin, I have not seen or heard of such a view: How could someone by himself approaching and receding say `Nothing is done by the self, nothing is done by others.' Good Gotama, I understand ... re ... from today, until life lasts I take refuge in good Gotama." The Buddha would have your balls for your denying of the person, and your denying of the right effort by which the person attains right view :-) Herman #72519 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 12:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati, to sarah wisdomcompas... Dear Nina and all thanks Nina, but i dont think i m reading right way. following are my doubts. > Dear Nidhi > Op 23-mei-2007, om 20:34 heeft wisdomcompassion het volgende geschreven: > > > i have one question to ask; what is application of abhidhamma > ------------ > To know that all phenomena in your life are conditioned and that you > have no mastery over them. They are only elements devoid of self. ============================== N: so in a way similar to sutta, with more detail and subtlitiy. certainly it must be appreciated. ============================== > First we learn this in theory and then the Abhidhamma is applied > through mindfulness and understanding of the reality presenting > itself now through one of the six doorways. > Nina. ============================== N: yes, logically correct. but there is a danger that lies here; we ought to consider which part of mind is intellect, i think out of six sense bases it is manoayatana. and out of five aggregates of clinging,i think it is 3rd khanda, that is sanna, and volition (intention to understand) but basically it is sanna that thinks. so sanna makes one believe that one understands what one is reading. but since its not by direct experience its a false idea. so it must follow that danger of wrong meditation lies here too. for example when i try to do satipatthana/medition i m strengthening sankhara (volition), and when i m applying mind to read abhidhamma i m strengthening sanna. so in a way the paradox that applies to meditation applies in a similar way to intellectual understanding and contemplation. meditation is making the strengthening the self view (volition majorly) and intellect makes the sanna strengthened. so the question is what is the right way of reading ? what is right effort, while reading, so that one doesnt form the opinions, and directly percieve what one is reading. i think reading corrects one's views also, but at times makes one believe that one knows what reality is, whereas in fact one doesn't know actually. with metta, nidhi #72520 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 24, 2007 12:59 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 155, 156 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 155, 156 Intro: in the preceding section the Vis. dealt with the spontaneous birth of ghosts consumed by craving who are constantly afflicted. Akusala kamma conditioned their way of birth and the ruupas that arose. In the following sections we read about birth as a ruupabrahma which is also a spontaneous birth, and also about those born by way of moisture. First the Visuddhimagga deals with the ruupa-brahmas. ------------ Text Vis.155: Now: The fine material gods have thirty nine; the apparitional and moisture-born have seventy material instances at most, and they have thirty at the least. Text Vis.156: Firstly, among the fine-material Brahmaas of apparitional generation there arise together with rebirth-linking consciousness thirty and also nine material instances with the four groups, namely, the decads of the eye, ear, and physical basis, and the ennead of life. ------------ N: As the Visuddhimagga explains, the eyedecad consists of the four great Elements and four which are colour, odour, flavour, nutritive essence, thus the eight inseparable ruupas that always arise together in a group, and in addition: life faculty which arises in each group produced by kamma, as well as eyesense, thus there are ten ruupas in the group with eyesense. Further, there are the decads of the ear and of the heartbase. The ennead of life is a group of nine ruupas consisting of the eight inseparable ruupas and life faculty. ----------- Text Vis.: But leaving the fine-material Brahmaas aside, among the others of apparitional generation and those of the moisture-born generation there are seventy instances of materiality at the most with the decads of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, physical basis and sex. And these are invariably to be found among deities [of the sense sphere]. Now the group of material states comprising the ten material instances, namely, colour, odour, flavour, nutritive essence, and the four primary elements, with eye sensitivity and life, are called the 'eye decad'. The remaining [groups of material states] should be understood in the same way. ----------- N: We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, T.A., p. 251, 252) more details which are also given in the Tiika that renders a long discussion about the ruupas arisen for the fine-material brahmaas, quoting the Vibhanga and the Co. to the Yamaka. The ruupa-brahmas have subdued clinging to sense objects by the development of ruupa-jhaana, and thus they have no conditions for the experience of odour, flavour and tangible object. They lack the decads of nose, tongue and bodysense. We read (T.A. p. 251) that they do not have the two ruupas of femininity and masculinity, We read further: ---------- The Tiika explains that the ruupa-brahmas do not have to swallow food and that they therefore do not have smellingsense and tastingsense. ---------- Conclusion: Those who attained ruupajhaana can have as its result birth in a ruupa-brahmaplane, provided the jhaana did not decline and could be attained shortly before death. They saw the disadvantages of sense pleasures and cultivated the conditions to be removed from them. They led a life of fewness of wishes, they abstained from gross greed for sense objects. Kamma produced rebirth in the ruupa brahma plane and from birth on they did not have smellingsense, tasting sense and bodysense, and no ruupa which is sex. They have a spontaneous rebirth and thus, they have from birth on the decads of the eyesense and earsense and this is not the case for those born as a human. For humans the sense-bases other than the bodysense appear later on. Nobody can choose which kamma will produce the next rebirth, it is beyond control. The Tiika deals with the aayatanas, sensebases, and dhaatus, elements, that are present from the first moment of life. It is completely in accordance with kamma what kinds of ruupas appear. The Tiika gives an explanation of the meaning of dhaatu, element: void of a being, void of life (nissatta-nijjiiva). No matter what kind of rebirth one has, life consists of elements devoid of self. ********** Nina. #72521 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 3:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Sila Corner: Sila as struggle corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Han and Sarah and all > > Well Han, this is a very suitable sutta you have found. Thank you. > > I finally found the one I was looking for. It's in the MN sutta I > was discussing with Andrew about a week ago. Some actions which are > painful now bring pleasant results, whereas some actions which are > pleasant now bring painful results. With Andrew, I was discussing in > context of a basic discretionary wisdom that would see which was > which and make wise choices. In the case of painful now/pleasant > later in this sutta, the struggle to lead the holy life is done with > tears, a hard struggle. > > I am rushing now to wrap up some e-mails because our computer is > going to the shop tomorrow morning. Don't even have time to go to > the next room to give you the relevant sutta reference. Oh yes, I > do. (This is right effort!) It is MN 45 paragraphs 3 and 6. Hi Phil I had great faith (?saddha) that you would find the sutta you were referring to. ;-) If memory serves me right (which it doesn't always), it would be paragraph 7 that is most relevant to our previous discussion. That relates to the pleasant now that ripens into future pleasure. You previously paraphrased that there were some things easy to do (i.e. pleasant, I assume) that are good for us (i.e. ripen into pleasure). I queried this by citing Dhammapada verse 163 which the ever studious Sarah pointed out was uttered after a nasty incident involving the infamous Devadatta. I assumed Sarah was saying v. 163 should be read as "for those by nature having strong dosa, it is easy to do harmful things and *exceedingly difficult* to do beneficial things". So where are we at? It seems to me that paragraph 7 is describing someone who "by nature" does not have strong lobha/dosa/moha. For such a one, we might say it is easy (pleasant) to do beneficial things (that, of course, produce kusala vipaka). Now, how many posts have I read where you describe yourself as subject to strong or gross defilements? Can I assume, therefore, that you would not place yourself within the ambit of paragraph 7? Indeed, you would have to be a paragraph 6 sort of guy, wouldn't you? By nature, strong on lobha/dosa/moha, having made lots of akusala vipaka ("weeping with tearful face") AND YET leading the perfect and holy life (let's tone that down by adding "to some degree"). How the hell do we interpret that? [Come on all you folk who insist the suttas don't need interpretation!] Here's my guess: defilements/akusala can be the object of panna, conditioning more panna in the future. It's classic Abhidhamma, isn't it? I'm open to all other interpretations ... BTW Phil, I'll see you round in para 6. I live there to the same extent you do, neighbour! Love to your ailing computer Andrew #72522 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Kasina Unification! bhikkhu5 Friends: Absorption is inducible by Object Unification! Kasina means: Entirety, Totality, Unity, Wholeness, and Oneness... It is a purely external method of inducing concentration and reach jhÄ?na absorption by unifying & condensing all undivided attention on a single homogenous, pure, and uniform object or aspect... There are 10 objects. Consciousness itself is regarded the finest: 1: The Earth kasina, 2: Water kasina, 3: Fire kasina, 4: Wind kasina, 5: The Blue kasina, 6: Yellow kasina, 7: Red kasina, 8: White kasina, 9: The Light or the consciousness kasina, 10: The Space kasina. The colour kasinas is a blue, yellow, red, or white circular disk ~1" feet in diameter of cloth, or painted cardboard or plywood, which is set up ~2 meters from the meditator who by gazing intensively at it internalizes it and thereby constructs an artificial visualization! In the earth kasina, the object of gazing may be a ploughed field seen from afar, or a round piece of earth prepared for the purpose. In the water kasina one may gaze at a pond seen from an elevation, or at water contained in a vessel. Similarly with the fire and wind. One must keep the mind away from all outside impressions & various thoughts on other objects, as well as all those disturbing and often detrimental mental visions or pseudo-hallucinations that may arise. Now, while exclusively fixing the eyes and thoughts on the blue disk as the sole object, the things around the disk seem to disappear and the disk itself becomes more and more a purely mental appearance. Then, whether the eyes are opened or closed, one perceives this now purely mentalized kasina disk, as wholly pure uniformly bright blue. This is the so-called acquired image (uggaha-nimitta) which, though apparently induced by means of the physical eyes, is nevertheless produced and visualized only by the mind, independent of the eyes! This fragile mentally produced image one should make so steady it no longer vanishes, but remains firmly fixed in the mind. Then it will become continually steadier, brighter, and more intensive. Such all pervading pure blue is the mental reflex-image (patibhÄ?ga-nimitta) & associated with it is the access concentration (upacÄ?ra-samÄ?dhi). During this stage all mental hindrances (nÄ«varana) have temporarily, been suppressed. No sensual lust (kÄ?ma-chanda) can arise in such focused state. No ill-will (vyÄ?pÄ?da) can irritate the mind. So is also all lethargy and laziness (thÄ«na-middha) overcome. No restlessness or regret (uddhacca-kukkucca) and no wavering in confused doubt (vicikicchÄ?) can any more divert the mind. If it is still possible for these five mental hindrances to arise, there can be no lasting calm of the mind. When they are gone, & the calm appears is if even solid one may reach the absorption level concentration (appanÄ?-samÄ?dhi) and thereby enter into the first jhÄ?na. The first jhÄ?na is a state of calm peace, joyful bliss, and directed thought & sustained thinking (vitakka-vicÄ?ra), i.e. inner speech or verbal activities of the mind... By the fading away & stilling of these verbal activities of the mind, one has attained the second jhÄ?na, a state of calm joy & happiness (piti-sukha), freed from all thinking, and pondering. When the joy fades away the third jhÄ?na is reached, which is characterized by a serene equanimous happiness (upekkhÄ?-sukha). At the ceasing of happiness, a state of perfect equanimity (upekkhÄ?) remains. This is called the fourth jhÄ?na. After emerging from the fourth jhÄ?na, the mind becomes serene, pure, lucid, stainless, devoid of wrong, pliable, able to act, firm and imperturbable. Such mind is capable of all... For a detailed explanation of the kasina exercises see Vism IV, V. The Path of Purification: Visuddhimagga. Excellent translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli. Written by 'the great explainer' Buddhaghosa in 5th century AC on Ceylon: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Requisites_for_Jhana_Absorption.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Concentration_Ability.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/II/The_5_Mental_Hindrances.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Concentration_Samadhi.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Feeding_Concentration.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Samma-Samadhi.htm Absorption into the Kasina! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #72523 From: "sukinder" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 11:02 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: daana corner sukinderpal Hi Herman, I just reread your letter and think that I now understand what you actually meant. You are saying that when I am told by someone who is full of self view that 'I' have self view, I will more or less disregard his comment. On the other hand if the other person was with little or no self view, I'd pay heed to what he says. Right? Ok, now I understand, and fully agree. I'll try to remember this, but I doubt on the whole there is going to be any change in the way I express myself. :-/ But thanks anyway. Metta, Sukinder _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Herman Hofman Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:24 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: daana corner Hi Sukin, On 23/05/07, Sukinder th.com> wrote: > > Han: > If you want to label what I wrote as maana or lobha, > please go ahead. I would not mind. > > S: Do you think I enjoy doing that?!! > This is a discussion list Han. You were happy to be praised, but it seems > that when questioned, you don't want to clarify beyond what you have > already written. I comment only if I feel that it might be useful for the > other person. > Well, I'll probably not respond to your posts from now. > It is my experience that there is nothing useful in having self-views pointed out by someone who is equally as mired in them. The words of Jesus come to mind:"And why point out the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the log in your own eye?". Herman #72524 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 24, 2007 4:07 am Subject: Question from Chatchai sarahprocter... f/w note from K.Chatchai ========================== Hi Sarah,Jon, and Allan, Please answer the following question in dhammahome.com webboard: http://www.dhammahome.com/front/webboard/show.php?gid=2&id=3789 How can Panna know and eliminate Moha when Panna has never been with Moha? Could it be that Panna get to know Moha through Sati and Annasamana Cetasikas when they appear together? Please explain or tell me where I can get information from. "I can read, speak and understand in Thai but I don't know how to type in Thai, please forgive me". Thank you. Anumotana Chatchai #72525 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 24, 2007 4:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati sarahprocter... f/w message from Nidhi ================================ Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 14:38:25 -0000 From: "sancheti_nidhi" dear sarah > S: In the development of satipatthana, there's no 'self effort'. So we > need to learn more about what satipattana really is. Can there be > satipatthana at any time other than now? Can any dhamma be known other > than that which appears now? ====================================== N: again i agree here partly. i like to clarify. i m sorry i have to use case of meditation, but since i learn better in meditation so i have to use it. in meditation one can learn to see dhammas arising and passing, understand that any movement of mind/effort as we put it (which can be both indulging in dhamma and resisting it) brings great agitation and turmoil in mind and mind doesnt remain steady any longer, and also one can see that these dhammas are not self, as if it would be self it would have been permanent. now knowing all this clearly cannot be done without sati. its very difficult that mind would remain steady and knowing dhamma so clearly in waking hours (non-meditative hours). ======================================== > > i fully agree on these two points. but i still say that there is a > > third road between effort and non effort. which includes both > > actually. <...> but if **by any chance** it so > > happens that volition is not present and awareness of arising and > > passing is there, that moment is very pure. as in that moment when > > sati watches the dhammas, since volition is absent, the sankharas > > cannot be made. > ... > S: To be honest, Nidhi, I don't really understand this. Cetana > (volition)is a universal cetasika which arises with every single citta > (even for an arahant). Sankhara khandha (which you referred to in part I > snipped), includes all cetanas plus all other cetasikas except vedana and > sanna. ===================================== N: my friend i m talking of experience and u are quoting from definitations. we can never meet. experience corroborates what is written in books. because law of nature is same for everyone. there is no other way except watching the process of mind. now when the recepie has been understood very well theoritically, its the time to cook, isn't it? ====================================== > When there is awareness, there is effort, there is volition and many other > cetasikas. All conditioned dhammas are formed up (sankhata). > > You may mean that in the case of the arahant, there is no more kamma - the > good cittas are inoperative and won't bring any result. > ... > >so the dhamma so arisen dont add to anushayas. if that > > happens repeatedly the anushayas come up, and if sati is there and > > volition is absent that anushayas also falls away. > ... > S: The anusayas lie dormant and are eradicated at the different stages of > enlightenment. Again, we can't say volition is absent. ==================================== N: please learn the art of burning kamma, the art of burning anusayas. volition is movement in mind. it can be in two directions, doing or resisting. in both of these two cases kammas cannot be burnt. volition cannot be present, sati is present though. ===================================== > ... > > this is the whole basis of meditation. first understanding things as > > they are (knowing dhamma as it is), > ... > S: OK, this is why we have to be very precise about what dhammas are > theoretically first. What do you understand them to be? ==================================== N: but it doesnt take more than a week and at the most one year (i mean to say very less part of our life span) to understand what are the emotions that we experience, the opinions, beliefs, the five senses and their functions. shouldn't one start understanding actual process of dhammas/emotions/sensations of five senses/thinking process etc. once its understood theoritically? ==================================== > >if any one of them is > > missing kamma cannot be combed out. > S: I'm not sure about this business of 'combing out kamma', Nidhi:). > ... > >and whatever dhamma arises are > > added into the anusaya. ==================================== N: this is the art of purification of kamma. i have talked about it a lot in past. its vishuddhimagga, (the path of purification/cleaning). its worth learning it. ============================== > ... > S: Anusaya refers to latent tendencies for particular kinds of > unwholesomeness. So even if there is no anger arising now, the anusaya for > such is still there because it hasn't been eradicated. I don't think we > can say 'whatever dhamma.....etc'. ==================================== N: by 'whatever dhamma' i mean all dhamma that we experience, emotions, beliefs, opinions, thoughts, and experience of five senses. ==================================== > >but i surely believe that in meditation such > > pure moments occur more frequently. > ... > S: In Pali, bhavana refers to the development of understanding. So if > there is bhavana now, there is 'pure' meditation now! ===================================== N: i don't agree here, bhavna is a word used in sanskrit, hindi, prakrit, and other indian languages as well. it basically means keep thinking of wholesome thoughts repeatedly so that kusala dhammas that have not arisen do arise and akusala dhamma that have arisen subside by thinking of opposite kusala kamma. metta bhavna is a good example of it. ===================================== > Thankyou also for your reference to the 1st sutta in SN about crossing the > flood. Not over or under-exerting - the Middle Way. > > Lots on this under 'Floods, crossing the flood' in 'Useful Posts' if you > have time to take a look and give any comments on the messages there. > (It's a favourite sutta of Ken H's if I recall!) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===================================== N: again i think the sutta has not been understood correctly. its not about over or under exerting, its about right effort. metta nidhi #72526 From: "sukinder" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 11:17 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Unintelligent Brother and the Cloth sukinderpal Dear Chris, Good day to you. So happy to see your name here again, it's been a long time I think this is a first, Sukin directing Christine to something in the Texts!! ;-)). But still this is only as far as I could get: Mahapandaka the older brother and Culapandaka the younger. I think it is in the Jataka commentaries if I remember right. Searching google didn't get me much info. Only this one by TB in the context of 'meditation': http://www.buddhistinformation.com/impossible_things.htm Anyway, you got more clues now, so I'm sure you will find what you are looking for. Metta, Sukinder _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Christine Forsyth Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 7:17 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Unintelligent Brother and the Cloth Hello all, Can anyone remind me please of the scripture where a Bhikkhu is a little ashamed of his younger brother who is 'not so bright'. He neglects to invite the younger brother to a function which the Buddha will be attending - all other bhikkhus are invited. The Buddha sees what is happening and askes the younger brother to meditate (?) while stroking a cloth. As he strokes, the cloth becomes soiled and this brings Understanding to the younger brother, which was not dependent on intellectual knowledge. I would be grateful for any assistance. Nice to see how energetic DSG is ... and g'day to all my old friends :-) #72527 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 4:45 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner wisdomcompas... Dear Scott, thanks for posting this sutta, i liked it very much. metta nidhi --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear All, > > Now I've been cornered: > > Sarah: "I have a suggestion to make: We now have the 'Dana study > corner' and the 'Sila study corner', thanks to Han's and Phil's > encouragement. How about a 'Right View study corner'..." > > Scott: I think I'll start officially with the Sammaadi.t.thi Sutta, > MN9. I'll present it serially, as is done in other corners. > #72528 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 5:01 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear nidhi, n: "thanks for posting this sutta, i liked it very much." Scott: You're welcome! Sincerely, Scott. #72529 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Herman, Thanks for the new sutta and for (!): H: "The Buddha would have your balls for your denying of the person, and your denying of the right effort by which the person attains right view :-)" Scott: I see, my good man, that you don't so much discuss suttas as fire them one at a time. Have you no further comments on the previous sutta you gave? I think, over time, I'm going to go over all eight aspect of the NEP in my little corner of this world - that means I'll come to Right Effort later. For now... This was discussed before. You were there (Message #48434), and Sarah wrote later(Message #66400) when I was discussing this sutta: For the phrase: "Brahmin, when there is the occasion for making effort, when there is a sentient being making effort, this is the being doing and otherness" The Pali is: "Ya.m kho, braahmana, aarabbadhaatuya sati aarabhavanto sattaa pa~n~nayanti, aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro." Sarah: "Herman asked for another rendering of a phrase in his translation given as:'This is the being doing and the otherness'. PTS gives: 'There is no self-agency; there is no other-agency' as I quoted above, to be understood in the context of Makkhali Gosala's view..." And Nina noted: "...this is a being doing (himself) and another one doing. Para is other. Another person. PTS translates as: self-agency, other-agency." Scott: The PTS PED has: "Aarambha...1. attempt, effort, inception of energy...def. as kicca, kara.niiya, attha, i. e. 1. undertaking & duty, 2. object)...2. support, ground, object, thing..." And: "Aarabbha...1. beginning, undertaking etc., in cpd. Ëšvatthu occasion for making an effort, concern, duty, obligation..." We never see eye to eye on this. The person or being is a concept. Effort is real. I wonder if the compound 'aarabbhadhaatuya' can be understood following the mode of translating 'aarabbhavatthu' given just above. That is, if 'aarabbhavatthu' can be given as 'occasion for making an effort...', then 'aarabbhadhaatuya' might be given as 'the element that is effort'. This I don't know for sure, of course. In this case there is no denial of effort, nor is there a misconstrual of a person doing something. I can no more see it as you do than you can read commentarial literature. What should we do? Sincerely, Scott. #72530 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 24, 2007 5:29 am Subject: Re: Correction Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. nilovg Hi Howard, It is difficult to understand a text by English translations only. Then, we have to compare different translations. As Ven. Dhammanando once explained: Ven. Thanissaro is more mystical, and as Phil said: Ven. Bodhi more academical. Unavoidable that each translator is influenced by his personal inclination. And also Ven. Dhammanando said: we have to view matters unemotively, without emotions. Generally speaking (I do not mean you) heated debates are not so helpful. I cannot add anything to what I said already about this sutta. Is it a great matter to you whether rupajhana is necessary for everybody to attain enlightenment? I never read this in the Tipitaka. You did not answer me about the Puggala pa~n~natti texts. These were very clear, I think. so is the commentary. Nina. Op 23-mei-2007, om 21:45 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It denies *dwelling* in those stages > where the rupa-world is transcended and the immaterial reached. In > no way does > it deny attaining rupa-jhanas. Such a reading would constitute an > enormous > misreading. #72531 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: impermanent versus inconstant upasaka_howard Hi, Nina and Larry - In a message dated 5/24/07 2:39:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Larry, > but only one object at a time is experienced through one of the six > doors. When seeing arises it experiences visible object and then this > visible object falls away together with the other rupas of the > kalapa. When the flower is touched, solidity appears. Or temperature > or motion. We do not need to think of the other rupas in a kalapa, > they cannot be experienced. > Nina. > ========================= I do not doubt the groupings of simultaneously arisen rupas called kalapas. What I do wonder about, though, is how they are known about when only one rupa of the group can be experienced. I have a conjecture in that regard: The entire kalapa arises "experientially," but only one rupa "registers" - only one rises to the level of "object," and all the others are experienced only subliminally. But even subconsciously experiencing these others might be sufficient to recall them later on. What do you think? If this doesn't "fly," how else can kalapas be known? Any ideas? With metta, Howard #72532 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 2:19 am Subject: Re: Correction Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/24/07 8:32:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > It is difficult to understand a text by English translations only. > Then, we have to compare different translations. As Ven. Dhammanando > once explained: Ven. Thanissaro is more mystical, and as Phil said: > Ven. Bodhi more academical. > Unavoidable that each translator is influenced by his personal > inclination. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: But both translations speak of *dwelling* in the jhanas/realms that transcend the rupa-jhanas/realms. I think the translations coincide in content. ----------------------------------------- And also Ven. Dhammanando said: we have to view matters > > unemotively, without emotions. Generally speaking (I do not mean you) > heated debates are not so helpful. > I cannot add anything to what I said already about this sutta. > Is it a great matter to you whether rupajhana is necessary for > everybody to attain enlightenment? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: No, it is not a great matter to me. However, it is clear to me that the Buddha said that it is requisite, and I do believe it to be so. ------------------------------------------- I never read this in the Tipitaka. > You did not answer me about the > Puggala pa~n~natti texts. These were > very clear, I think. so is the commentary. ----------------------------------------- Howard: So is the sutta itself very clear. And as for Tipitaka evidence, the Buddha's sutta definition of right concentration as the four jhanas, and right concentration being requisite for awakening are sufficient for me. As for those texts, when suttas are clear, I depend on *them*, for it is the suttas that are largely safe to assume as the word of the Buddha. Only when a sutta is unclear to me and not further clarified by other suttas would I go beyond the sutta pitaka, and when a commentary disagrees with the clear meaning of a clear sutta, I would certainly ignore the commentary. I take what the Buddha said as primary. ------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ===================== With metta, Howard #72533 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu May 24, 2007 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Question from Chatchai sarahprocter... Dear Friend (& Chatchai), Thank you for your good question. When panna arises, it understands whatever nama or rupa appears at that time. If moha appears, then panna can arise and know its characteristic. So, you are right when you say that panna and moha cannot arise together, but still moha can be the object of the citta arising with panna. Whenever panna arises, as you also suggest, the annasamana (or a~n~nasamaanaa) cetasikas (i.e the 'universal' and 'particular' cetasikas) arise. Also sati and other sobhana cetasikas such as saddha, hiri, ottappa, alobha, adosa, tatramajjhattata and the 6 pairs also arise and assist by performing their various functions. You are also very welcome to ask any of us further questions. For further information, I also would recommend Nina Van Gorkom's book 'Cetasikas': http://www.zolag.co.uk/ebook.html Metta, Sarah ......... > How can Panna know and eliminate Moha when Panna has never been > > with Moha? Could it be that Panna get to know Moha through Sati and > > Annasamana Cetasikas when they appear together? Please explain or tell > > me where I can get information from. #72534 From: connie Date: Thu May 24, 2007 6:58 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (56) nichiconn Dear Friends, part 1 of 4 on Guttaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa; The commentary on the verses of Therii Guttaa: Gutte yadattha.m pabbajjaati-aadikaa guttaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii anukkamena sambhatavimokkhasambhaaraa hutvaa, paripakkakusalamuulaa sugatiisuyeva sa.msarantii The verses beginning Guttaa, ... that very thing for the sake of which you went forth are Therii Guttaa's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis of release. In due course she accumulated the prerequisites for liberation, and through the maturing of good [actions] as a condition she journeyed on in only happy existences. imasmi.m buddhuppaade saavatthiya.m braahma.nakule nibbattaa, guttaatissaa naama.m ahosi. Saa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa upanissayasampattiyaa codiyamaanaa gharaavaasa.m jigucchantii maataapitaro anujaanaapetvaa mahaapajaapatigotamiyaa santike pabbaji. Pabbajitvaa ca vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa bhaavana.m anuyu~njantiyaa tassaa citta.m cirakaalaparicayena bahiddhaaramma.ne vidhaavati, ekagga.m naahosi. In this Buddha era she was born in the home of a brahman in Saavatthii. Her name was Guttaa. After coming of age, being urged on by her attainment of the prerequisites, she was disgusted with household life. She obtained permission from her mother and father and went forth in the presence of Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii. And having gone forth,she established insight and was diligent in mental development. Her mind strayed to external objects for a long time, and she had no single-pointedness [of mind]. ===tbc, connie #72535 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 8:05 am Subject: Correction Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. buddhatrue Hi Nina and Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 5/24/07 8:32:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > > > > Hi Howard, > > It is difficult to understand a text by English translations only. > > Then, we have to compare different translations. As Ven. Dhammanando > > once explained: Ven. Thanissaro is more mystical, and as Phil said: > > Ven. Bodhi more academical. > > Unavoidable that each translator is influenced by his personal > > inclination. > > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > But both translations speak of *dwelling* in the jhanas/realms that > transcend the rupa-jhanas/realms. I think the translations coincide in content. > ----------------------------------------- James: Translations may vary some, but I haven't seen any translations of this sutta which have the arahants stating that never achieved the rupa jhanas which the Buddha defined as Right Concentration. Nina, if you think you can translate the Pali of this sutta better, or you have a better translation, then you should offer it. Otherwise, even mentioning this difference in translator's personalities is a smoke-screen to detract from the lack of support for your claim. > And also Ven. Dhammanando said: we have to view matters > > > unemotively, without emotions. Generally speaking (I do not mean you) > > heated debates are not so helpful. James: Debates are debates- sometimes heated and sometimes not. If it doesn't become personal then it usually isn't heated. I don't think that this particular debate has been heated, do you Nina? It's very simple, the sutta mentions nothing about the four jhanas and yet the commentary does. In that case, it would be better to believe the sutta, don't you think? > > I cannot add anything to what I said already about this sutta. > > Is it a great matter to you whether rupajhana is necessary for > > everybody to attain enlightenment? > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > No, it is not a great matter to me. However, it is clear to me that > the Buddha said that it is requisite, and I do believe it to be so. > ------------------------------------------- James: Well, this may not be a great matter to Howard and you, but it is a very great matter to me. If the Dhamma is supposed to be my teacher (as the Buddha said before his paranibbana) and the Dhamma has been corrupted, who is then to be my teacher? The first Great Council came together so that the Dhamma wouldn't be lost and now, you Nina, push people up against a wall and ask them to accept misinterpretations of the Dhamma or otherwise risk being labeled "emotional"? Really, Nina, if the truth of the Dhamma isn't a great matter to you then you have no business teaching it to anyone. (Oh gosh, am I being too emotional?? I guess faith in the Triple Gem does that to you!) > I never read this in the Tipitaka. James: What do you mean you never read this in the Tipitaka? The crucial importance of jhanas to enlightenment are throughout the Tipitaka. The Buddha even taught it in his first sermon. > You did not answer me about the > > Puggala pa~n~natti texts. These were > > very clear, I think. so is the commentary. James: Make a choice: Believe the Buddha or believe the commentary. I have made my choice. > > ----------------------------------------- > Howard: > So is the sutta itself very clear. And as for Tipitaka evidence, the > Buddha's sutta definition of right concentration as the four jhanas, and right > concentration being requisite for awakening are sufficient for me. > As for those texts, when suttas are clear, I depend on *them*, for it > is the suttas that are largely safe to assume as the word of the Buddha. Only > when a sutta is unclear to me and not further clarified by other suttas would > I go beyond the sutta pitaka, and when a commentary disagrees with the clear > meaning of a clear sutta, I would certainly ignore the commentary. I take what > the Buddha said as primary. James: Very well said, Howard. Anyone who would take the commentary to a sutta as primary over the sutta itself has lost his/her marbles ;-)). > > ------------------------------------------- > > > Nina. > > ===================== > With metta, > Howard Metta, James #72536 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 5:08 am Subject: Re: Correction Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 5/24/07 11:07:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > >Howard: > > No, it is not a great matter to me. However, it is clear to > me that > >the Buddha said that it is requisite, and I do believe it to be so. > >------------------------------------------- > > James: Well, this may not be a great matter to Howard and you, but it > is a very great matter to me. If the Dhamma is supposed to be my > teacher (as the Buddha said before his paranibbana) and the Dhamma has > been corrupted, who is then to be my teacher? The first Great Council > came together so that the Dhamma wouldn't be lost and now, you Nina, > push people up against a wall and ask them to accept > misinterpretations of the Dhamma or otherwise risk being labeled > "emotional"? Really, Nina, if the truth of the Dhamma isn't a great > matter to you then you have no business teaching it to anyone. (Oh > gosh, am I being too emotional?? I guess faith in the Triple Gem does > that to you!) > ========================== It is "not a great matter to me" on a pragmatic basis, because even if no jhanas were needed for awakening, but only "access concentration" or "momentary concentration" were needed, which I happen to believe to be quite false, my practice would remain the same. The jhanas are uncontestably useful in making the mind malleable and a fit instrument for the great work, and would be so even if they were not essential, a hypothetical which I strongly disbelieve. The style of in-tandem meditation I follow works well for me, and it *can* lead to the jhanas. I would engage in this type of meditation no matter what, because I find it very beneficial in cultivating heightened calm and clarity, it can lead to the jhanas, and, in fact, I have good reason to believe it is already serves me in that latter capacity. With metta, Howard #72537 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 24, 2007 11:11 am Subject: Perfections N, no 33 nilovg Dear friends, (continuation of the discussion between Kh Sujin, Sarah and Nina) Nina: We will go back to our countries and there will be ups and downs in our practice. Now we are in India and we have a great deal of discussions; when we are back it will be different. Khun Sulin: Don't you think that there are also ups and downs now? Nina: Yes, but maybe there are more conditions for awareness because of our discussions and because of the holy places we visited. Khun Sujin: But one can see that all such moments are anattã, and that is the way to have less clinging. Nina: One may have lots of worries when one is back. I have to move to another country and to adapt myself to life over there, and then I will worry. Problems will arise. Khun Sulin: With sati one will see that right understanding can grow. Nina: But there may be downs in the practice. Khun Sujin: That can be object of awareness. If it is not object of awareness, right understanding cannot grow. Nina: But the Bodhisatta had in some lives not so many op-portunities to develop understanding, for example, when he was an animal. So, ups and downs are bound to happen. Khun Sujin: Otherwise realities would not be impermanent, dukkha, anattã. When I was clinging to a concept of self who could have sati, Khun Sujin brought me back to the present moment, saying that there are also ups and downs now. Only the present moment can be clearly understood. While we are thinking about sati we do not know the true nature of realities. In our daily life there may be moments of sati but since we are beginners there is not yet clear understanding of nãma and rupa. We may become discouraged and we may believe that there could not be sati in daily life. We may doubt about the characteristic of sati and we may wonder whether there was sati or not. While we are thinking with doubt we do not know the present reality and there is no way to find out when there is sati and when there is not. Courage is needed to begin again and again in order to know the truth. We should be faithful to our commitment to know the present moment, "not preferring to know objects other than the present one', as Khun Sujin often said. This does not mean that there should not be development of all kinds of kusala at the same time. All the perfections should be developed, but they should be developed along with right understanding of the present moment. In that way there will be less inclination to cling to an idea of "my kusala' . One will realize that kusala is impermanent, dukkha and anattã. Khun Sujin reminded me to be aware in all kinds of situations: Better than thinking about sati now is being aware in Holland while you are busy. If we are sincere and we do not prefer other objects to the present reality, right understanding can grow in daily life, while we are busy, while we are relaxed, while we are enjoying ourselves with music and other entertainments. We will not try to change our life and thus satipatthãna can become more natural. There will be less worry about sati. It is not depressing to be sincere, it is purifying. We should be grateful to the Buddha who taught us the way to know our true accumulations, all our defilements. ******* Nina. #72538 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 24, 2007 11:13 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 1, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, As regards root-condition, hetu-paccaya, at the first moment of life, if the rebirth- consciousness, patisandhi-citta, is accompanied by roots, these roots condition the citta and accompanying cetasikas by way of root-condition. The patisandhi-citta cannot produce rúpa, but, in the planes where there are nåma and rúpa, the five khandha planes, the rúpa arising at the moment of birth is produced by kamma. Thus, both the patisandhi-citta and the rúpa which arises at the same moment are result of kamma, a deed previously done. In the case of human beings, kamma produces at the first moment of life three groups of rúpa, one group with the heartbase[1], one group with sex (male or female) and one group with bodysense. Since the kamma which produces nåma and rúpa at the moment of birth is of different degrees, the mental result and the bodily result are also of different degrees. We can see that human beings are born with different mental and bodily capacities. Some people are beautiful, some ugly, some are apt to few illnesses, some to many illnesses. The patisandhi-citta may be ahetuka (rootless)and in that case one is born handicapped [2]. Or the patisandhi-citta may be accompanied by two or three sobhana hetus, depending on the degree of kusala kamma which produces it. These hetus are of different degrees. When the patisandhi-citta is rooted in sobhana hetus, these hetus condition the citta, the accompanying cetasikas and the rúpas which are produced by kamma and which arise at the same time as the paìisandhi-citta. Thus we see that the diversity of the nåma and rúpa of human beings from the moment of birth is dependent on conditions. The "Patthåna'' (Faultless Triplet, Kusala-ttika, Ch VII, Investigation Chapter, Pa~nha-våra, I, Conditions Positive,1, Classification Chapter, Root 7, 403) states about root-condition at the first moment of life: "At the moment of conception, resultant indeterminate roots (hetus which are vipåka [3]) are related to (their)associated aggregates (khandhas) [4] and kamma-produced matter by root-condition." ----------- footnotes: 1In the planes of existence where there are nåma and rúpa citta must have a physical base or place of origin. For seeing, hearing and the other sense-cognitions the corresponding senses are the physical bases. All the other types of citta also have a physical base, and this rúpa is called the "heart-base". 2.The kusala kamma which produces a paìisandhi-citta which is kusala vipåka without roots is weaker than the kusala kamma which produces a paìisandhi-citta with two roots or three roots. There are man different kammas with different degrees which produce their results accordingly. 3.As I explained in my Introduction, realities, dhammas, can be classified as threefold: as kusala, as akusala and as indeterminate, avyåkatå. Indeterminate dhammas include vipåka and kiriya, inoperative.Thus, hetus which are "resultant indeterminate" are hetus which are vipåka. 4. The associated aggregates are the citta and cetasikas, which arise together with the roots. -------------- Nina. #72539 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 24, 2007 11:18 am Subject: Re: Correction Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. nilovg Hi James, The Puggala Pa~n~natti is Abhidhamma. Nina. Op 24-mei-2007, om 17:05 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > You did not answer me about the > > > Puggala pa~n~natti texts. These were > > > very clear, I think. so is the commentary. > > James: Make a choice: Believe the Buddha or believe the commentary. I > have made my choice. #72540 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 24, 2007 11:35 am Subject: answering question. nilovg Dear Chatchai and friends, Sarah answered your question, but I add something too. I hope others will join in. The link did not work. Nor his personal address. Please, Sarah, can you send it? Moha is not knowing dhammas, it darkens the true nature of dhammas. Moha is deeply rooted, it is a latent tendency, anusaya, that conditions the arising of akusala citta with moha time and again. Each akusala citta is accompanied by moha. Moha also conditions the wrong view of self. It is a long way leading to the eradication of moha, only the arahat has eradicated it. But there can be a beginning at this moment: by awareness and understanding of the dhamma that appears now through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind-door. Very gradually we can learn that the dhamma that appears now is conditioned, that there is no "I' who creates it. Pa~n~naa lights up the darkness of moha, but it is a long, long way (cira kala bhaavana).We need patience and perseverance. If we expect a result soon it is clinging and in that way ignorance will never be eradicated. Nina. Op 24-mei-2007, om 13:07 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > How can Panna know and eliminate Moha when Panna has never been > > with Moha? Could it be that Panna get to know Moha through Sati and > > Annasamana Cetasikas when they appear together? #72541 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu May 24, 2007 11:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: impermanent versus inconstant nilovg Hi Howard, subliminal experience? That would be strange. We have to see the accompanying rupas in a kalapa as conditioning factors. Cohesion makes the group stay together, solidity is a foundation. no isolated colour floating in the air. Nina Op 24-mei-2007, om 14:48 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I have a conjecture in that regard: The entire kalapa arises > "experientially," but only one rupa "registers" - only one rises to > the level of > "object," and all the others are experienced only subliminally. #72542 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 8:04 am Subject: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. TGrand458@... Hi All From MN # 35 The Shorter Discourse to Saccaka "Here, Aggivessana, any kind of material form whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, far or near --- a disciple of mine sees all material form as it actually is, with proper wisdom thus: "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self." Any kind of feeling... perception... formations... Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, far or near --- a disciple of mine sees all consciousness as it actually is, with proper wisdom thus: "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self." The Sutta proceeds to explain that this approach can bring about liberation. This is clearly insight and insight development. Yet much of it does not involve "direct experience" at all. Much of it (most of it) is 'reflective contemplation' and 'inferential deduction' about the nature of things that are not being experienced. For example, how can past, future, external, or far -- material forms, feelings, perceptions, formations or consciousness have anything to do with direct experience? Moreover, the Buddha says that this approach is "SEEING THEM AS THEY ACTUALLY ARE WITH PROPER WISDOM" !!! Oops ... you won't get the Buddha saying anything more closely resembling "realities" than that! This would seem to fly in the face of some viewpoints in this group. Will this post get conveniently ignored by those claiming otherwise?????? Bring it on! :-) PS, one preemptive note, this is Buddha's instruction to others, not his "own omniscience" being discussed. TG #72543 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 8:48 am Subject: Re: Correction Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 5/24/07 2:27:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi James, > The Puggala Pa~n~natti is Abhidhamma. > Nina. > ======================= Rather atypical Abhidhamma, right, Nina? It deals with types of persons? With metta, Howard #72544 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 9:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: impermanent versus inconstant upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/24/07 2:53:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > subliminal experience? That would be strange. We have to see the > accompanying rupas in a kalapa as conditioning factors. Cohesion > makes the group stay together, solidity is a foundation. no isolated > colour floating in the air. > Nina > ======================== Actually I don't find the idea of subliminal experience strange. It makes sense to me. But our perspectives are very different, Nina. You countenance rupas as consciousness-independent phenomena. I, however, consider all phenomena as experiential phenomena, some physical, some mental. I don't, for example, make any sense out of an alleged unseen visual rupa. To me that is especially nonsensical. Visual rupa and visible object are, for me, one and the same. It is a kind of content of consciousness. Likewise for unsmelled odor and unfelt itch or ache - for me there are no such things. They are elements of experience. With metta, Howard #72545 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 1:30 pm Subject: Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. wisdomcompas... Dear TG, Let me try. i take direct experience to mean understanding the process of nama and rupa. of course one cannot experience everything in the world. surely, the usage of word "Any kind" shows that buddha is instructing to deduce. i tend to differentiate between understanding and contemplation. i think contemplation sows the seed of insight development, but its actual understanding that brings insight. just like watching a machine how it works, what are the components, how they interact, how they work etc., to me this denotes understanding. if i read a book about the process of working of a machine, it might (certainly) help me, but that would not be full understanding. so i think deep contemplation helps but one cannot say it is full understanding. i think contemplation engenders an error as well. at times one feels that one understands but actually one doesnt. its just like preparation of an interview, which gives confidence, and then facing interview. i dont think that both are comparable. so to me the sutta points to understanding and contemplation (and deducing of course) both, neither only contemplation, nor experiencing everything directly. with metta, nidhi ************************ #72546 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 11:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. TGrand458@... Hi Nidhi Thanks for your reply. I agree with your division of contemplation and understanding. Not really the point I was trying to get across though. My point is that insight has as much to do with conceptual reasoning as it does to direct experience. In addition, that the Buddha not only talked about such "outside things," but utilized "them" in his highest instructions. TG #72547 From: "m_nease" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 3:15 pm Subject: Re: what is sati m_nease Hi Nidhi, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wisdomcompassion" wrote: > about jainism and buddhism, if one goes by texts then they are two > extremes. so there is great deal of difference. but strikingly the > discription of kaivalya, by lord mahavir, and nibbana by Lord buddha > (both have described in negative terms, and almost similarly) is very > much similar. further more there is quite a great deal of similarity > in the stories contained in the scriptures. the uttradhayana sutra of > jainism is quite similar to dhammapada. at certain places one feels > that either one of them is translation of another. > even the names and stories of pacchek buddhas are similar. a lots of > other stories as well. even some of the jatak stories of Buddha are > contained in jain texts. Yes, I imagine that in the Buddha's time the two sects must have looked similar at least from the outside. From what I've read of the Paali texts, each saw pretty clear differences between the two. I haven't read any Jain texts, by the way, so your notes above are informative, thanks. > but dissimilarities are so wide that one has to decide what one would > follow. but both are very deep. one problem with jainism is that i > think that the books are not translated properly. so translation is > totally different from what the text says at times. the practices by > Lord Mahavir are totally different from buddha's recommendation. its > severe austerity whereas Lord Buddha preached middle way. non violence > of jainism is another extreme thing. jainsim believe in soul, buddha > refuted it. Yes, a fairly crucial difference I'd think. > Buddha has given detailed description about workings of > mind, whereas Mahavir has given detailed description about all other > things about which we feel curious about, like universe, cosmology, > the structure of atoms and matter etc. Sounds fascinating-- > when i saw the similarities of stories and reflections, it made me > very doubtful as to what is true. since i m not capable to find out so > i read with the attitude that whosoever said that knew certainly more > than me, so i must learn it instead of questioning. I envy you that detachment. I can't seem to read anything without immediately judging (or misjudging) its merits. > as long as people following the two religions, there is not much > difference. both understand words of two great men by reflecting, and > thinking. though mediation is preserved in buddhist world, and > austerity in jainism. both believe their system is what one leads to > nibbana, and both have deep faith in their scriptures and the masters > (buddha and mahavir). but that is not new i think; as these > differences were prevalent during time of buddha and mahavir as well. Well, I'm speaking from ignorance here, but surely the conceptions of nibbaana with and without atta must be profoundly different? > that time as well people had to decide what they would like to follow, > and scriptures of both streams claim that they became arhant by > following their system. the iddhis of the two streams are also very > similar. though there is a great difference in terminlogy, but common > words like appamad, asavas, nirjara, kamma etc. are same in both systems. > > the best thing about buddhist scriptures is that it is very simple to > understand, and discourses of buddha are very practical and doable. That was my impression too when I first encountered Buddhism. Since then I've read a number of suttas stating explicitly that the Dhamma is deep, difficult to understand and so on, and so it now seems to me. The abhhidhamma texts and commentaries reinforce that impression, for those of us with confidence in them. The practice(s) seem to me to be especially difficult--to do correctly, at least--most particularly because of the difference between the two doctrines I mentioned above of anatta. Of course this is only my opinion but it is well supported by the texts, I think. > i > couldnt find such a thing anywhere, neither in upnishads, gita or jain > books. and buddha deliberately talked only about how to be free from > suffering, and discard other less important things.so i m buddhist in > all practiacal ways. for me personally Buddha's words touch me more > deeply than other books, and i m more inclined towards buddhist > scriptures for their simplicity and practical value. i think buddha > did great help to humanity by considering relevance of teaching, and > investigating from middle; that is cause and effect. Yes, especially if you mean kamma and vipaaka. But there were other sects who held kamma and vipaaka to be real (were the Jains one of these sects? I don't recall) and the vinaya allowed for quicker ordination of converts from those sects, which suggests to me the importance of this doctrine. Anyway, good to see you here and I'm very glad for your appreciation of the Buddhist texts (I honestly know next to nothing of the others) and I do appreciate your explanation of the differences and similarities as you see them. mike #72548 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner egberdina Hi Scott, On 24/05/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > > We never see eye to eye on this. The person or being is a concept. > Effort is real. I wonder if the compound 'aarabbhadhaatuya' can be > understood following the mode of translating 'aarabbhavatthu' given > just above. That is, if 'aarabbhavatthu' can be given as 'occasion > for making an effort...', then 'aarabbhadhaatuya' might be given as > 'the element that is effort'. This I don't know for sure, of course. > > In this case there is no denial of effort, nor is there a misconstrual > of a person doing something. I can no more see it as you do than you > can read commentarial literature. What should we do? I would just as soon drop the matter. The constraints which face all househoIders with their feet firmly planted in samsara have finally caught up with me, and I have accepted a full-time job, which will start in the next few weeks. I suspect my posting will come to a trickle in the near future. Herman #72549 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 3:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unintelligent Brother and the Cloth egberdina Hi Christine, On 24/05/07, Christine Forsyth wrote: > > > I would be grateful for any assistance. Nice to see how energetic DSG > is ... and g'day to all my old friends :-) > I prefer to think of myself as being one of your young friends :-) Herman #72550 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 12:09 pm Subject: A Basic Question About Mind-Door Processes upasaka_howard Hi, all Abhidhammikas - What actually occurs when a rupa is known during a mind-door process? When, for example, warmth is known via body door, there is the knowing of it, the recognizing of it, the feeling of it, attending to it, and so on - the various cetasikas acting on it. What happens later that is different when that "same" warmth is known during the subsequent mind-door process? Is that when it is thought about? Or liked or disliked? Or craved or hated? Or what, exactly? Is it a matter of *other* cetasikas acting on the warmth? If that is not it, then what exactly *is* the difference? With metta, Howard #72551 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 12:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner upasaka_howard Hi, Herman - In a message dated 5/24/07 6:33:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofmeister@... writes: > I would just as soon drop the matter. The constraints which face all > househoIders with their feet firmly planted in samsara have finally > caught up with me, and I have accepted a full-time job, which will > start in the next few weeks. I suspect my posting will come to a > trickle in the near future. > ========================== Hey! Good luck with the job!! :-) I hope it is really enjoyable and rewarding in every way you wish. With metta, Howard #72552 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] re: impermanent versus inconstant lbidd2 Hi Nina, N: "but only one object at a time is experienced through one of the six doors. When seeing arises it experiences visible object and then this visible object falls away together with the other rupas of the kalapa. When the flower is touched, solidity appears. Or temperature or motion. We do not need to think of the other rupas in a kalapa, they cannot be experienced." L: True, but that is how we do experience in the ordinary way. We know that a flower is not merely visible data. And in fact that is the reality. Perception helps us understand without experiencing, but it sometimes gets it wrong: a young deer sees the visible data of a scarecrow and perceives that that visible data is a sign of the nama and rupa of a man. A wise man sees the visible data of a scarecrow and perceives that that visible data is the sign of the various rupas of a scarecrow. #72553 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 5:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Herman, I'm sorry and glad due to: H: "I would just as soon drop the matter. The constraints which face all househoIders with their feet firmly planted in samsara have finally caught up with me, and I have accepted a full-time job, which will start in the next few weeks. I suspect my posting will come to a trickle in the near future." Scott: I kind of wanted to get into the whole thing further but I definitely get the full-time job scene. Maybe you'll step it up again here once you get into your groove. Hopefully I didn't offend you. Best of luck with the gig. Sincerely, Scott. #72554 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 6:19 pm Subject: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... buddhatrue Hi Nina, Howard, and All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > The Puggala Pa~n~natti is Abhidhamma. > Nina. > Op 24-mei-2007, om 17:05 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: Unfortunately, I don't have a printed copy of the Puggala-pannatti and I can't find it translated on the Internet. And what Sarah quoted is not enough for me to go on. However, I do have a printed copy of the Vism. You consider the Vism. an authority, right? Well, I hope so, because according to the Vism. even a dry-insight or bare-insight worker has achieved at least the first jhana. From Chapter XXI DESCRIPTION OF PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF THE WAY 111. WHAT GOVERNS THE DIFFERENCE IN THE NOBLE PATH'S ENLIGHTENENT FACTORS, ETC.... 112. To deal with these [three theories] in order: According to governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight (dry-insight) worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhana only. James: This section of the Vism. could be easily misread if one doesn't take into account the entire sentence. Here is what the basics of this sentence reads: PATHS OF THE FIRST JHANA ONLY: 1.Bare-Insight worker (dry-insight) 2.Jhana attainer who doesn't use jhana for insight 3.Jhana attainer who uses jhana for insight but comprehends unrelated formations Therefore, according to the Vism., even a "dry-insight worker" has achieved at least the first jhana. Let me repeat that: A dry-insight worker is one who has achieved the first jhana! Let me continue with 112. text: In each case there are seven enlightenment factors, eight path factors, and five jhana factors. For while their preliminary insight can be accompanied by joy and it can be accompanied by equanimity, when their insight reaches the state of equanimity about formations at the time of emergence it is accompanied by joy. James: The text then goes on to describe other types of arahants who have achieved higher jhanas. According to the Vism., there isn't a single type of arahant who hasn't achieved at least the first jhana. Therefore, I would conclude that jhana is necessary for enlightenment. Of course, Nina, you could choose to disagree with the Vism. (But please, whatever you do, don't dodge this post or pass it on to someone else.) Metta, James #72555 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 6:42 pm Subject: Mindfulness of Death- 9 buddhatrue Hi All, MINDFULNESS OF DEATH EIGHT WAYS OF RECOLLECTING DEATH (NUMBER 8): As to the shortness of the moment: in the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment. Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls [that is, touches the ground,] only on one point of [the circumference of] its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment. When that consciousness has ceased, the being is said to have ceased, according as it is said: `In a past conscious moment he did live, not he does live, not he will live. In a future conscious moment not he did live, not he does live, he will live. In the present conscious moment not he did live, he does live, not he will live. Life, person, pleasure, pain- just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow. This is how death should be recollected as to the shortness of the moment. To be continued…CONCLUSION Metta, James #72556 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 7:16 pm Subject: Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. kenhowardau Hi TG, ------------------- TG: > . . . "Here, Aggivessana, any kind of material form whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, far or near --- a disciple of mine sees all material form as it actually is, with proper wisdom thus: "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self." Any kind of feeling... perception... formations... Any kind of consciousness whatever, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, far or near --- a disciple of mine sees all consciousness as it actually is, with proper wisdom thus: "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self." The Sutta proceeds to explain that this approach can bring about liberation. This is clearly insight and insight development. Yet much of it does not involve "direct experience" at all. -------------------- In the past, conditioned dhammas were exactly the way they are now - anicca, dukkha and anatta. Similarly, the conditioned dhammas that will arise in the future will be anicca dukkha and anatta. That is what the Buddha taught. In our case this is theoretical right understanding (pariyatti), and I think your point is that it cannot be direct right understanding (patipatti, satipatthana). But I am not sure you are right about that. I think panna can directly experience a paramattha dhamma and know, "This is a conditioned dhamma. It is what the Buddha described as being the same as all past and future conditioned dhammas." --------------------------- TG: > Much of it (most of it) is 'reflective contemplation' and 'inferential deduction' about the nature of things that are not being experienced. For example, how can past, future, external, or far -- material forms, feelings, perceptions, formations or consciousness have anything to do with direct experience? ---------------------------- As I said above. BTW, I have to wonder why you don't know this. It has been discussed on DSG dozens of times - including quite recently. I wonder why you haven't noticed. Could it be because you have been too busy disputing the ancient texts and putting forth your own original ideas? ---------------------------------------- TG: > Moreover, the Buddha says that this approach is "SEEING THEM AS THEY ACTUALLY ARE WITH PROPER WISDOM" !!! Oops ... you won't get the Buddha saying anything more closely resembling "realities" than that! This would seem to fly in the face of some viewpoints in this group. ----------------------------------------- No, it doesn't fly in the face of any of the people you are thinking of. In a moment of direct mundane right understanding (satipatthana) there is no attachment ("mine") no conceit ("I am") and no wrong view ("my self"). ------------------------ TG: > Will this post get conveniently ignored by those claiming otherwise?????? Bring it on! :-) ------------------------- Yes, I suppose so, "bring it on." That's what we're here for. But what is this talk about "ignoring?" No one ignores you. We don't all agree with you, but in spite of that people have shown enormous willingness to discuss your views with you. You and your tag team hold various views that conflict with the views of the Theras (after whom Theravada was named). You think we must have lost our marbles if we prefer the Theras' explanations to yours, and that is fine if it is what you want to think. But let's keep it civilised. ------------------------ TG: > PS, one preemptive note, this is Buddha's instruction to others, not his "own omniscience" being discussed. ------------------------ A Buddha's instructions cannot possibly be the same as conventional instructions. Conventional instructions assume the existence of the instructor and the instructed. They assume there is a self that will continue from the present moment to a future moment when it will experience the benefits of instruction. The Buddha denied any such existent beings and any such continuing on. Therefore, isn't his Dhamma a matter of understanding? We don't need all of his omniscient understanding - just a tiny part of it - but that's what it's all about. It certainly can't be about 'instructions' in the ordinary meaning of the word. Ken H #72557 From: "Leo" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 5:29 pm Subject: I am finding interesting suttas on sectarians leoaive Hi i am finding very interesting sutta on sectarinas, where sectarians are based on ideas about what is harmfull. I decided to post it. Leo ------------------------------------- Ud 6.4 Tittha Sutta Various Sectarians (1) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu Alternate translation: Ireland Thanissaro PTS: Ud 66 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Copyright © 1994 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1994 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time there were many priests, contemplatives, and wanderers of various sects living around Savatthi with differing views, differing opinions, differing beliefs, dependent for support on their differing views. Some of the priests and contemplatives held this view, this doctrine: "The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless." Some of the priests and contemplatives held this view, this doctrine: "The cosmos is not eternal"... "The cosmos is finite"... "The cosmos is infinite"... "The soul and the body are the same"... "The soul is one thing and the body another"... "After death a Tathagata exists"... "After death a Tathagata does not exist"... "After death a Tathagata both does and does not exist"... "After death a Tathagata neither does nor does not exist. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless." And they lived arguing, quarreling, and disputing, wounding one another with weapons of the mouth, saying, "The Dhamma is like this, it's not like that. The Dhamma's not like that, it's like this." Then in the early morning, a large number of monks, having put on their robes and carrying their bowls and outer robes, went into Savatthi for alms. Having gone for alms in Savatthi, after the meal, returning from their alms round, they went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, they said to the Blessed One: "Lord, there are many priests, contemplatives, and wanderers of various sects living around Savatthi with differing views, differing opinions, differing beliefs, dependent for support on their differing views... and they live arguing, quarreling, and disputing, wounding one another with weapons of the mouth, saying, 'The Dhamma is like this, it's not like that. The Dhamma's not like that, it's like this.'" "Monks, the wanderers of other sects are blind and eyeless. They don't know what is beneficial and what is harmful. They don't know what is the Dhamma and what is non-Dhamma. Not knowing what is beneficial and what is harmful, not knowing what is Dhamma and what is non-Dhamma, they live arguing, quarreling, and disputing, wounding one another with weapons of the mouth, saying, 'The Dhamma is like this, it's not like that. The Dhamma's not like that, it's like this.' "Once, in this same Savatthi, there was a certain king who said to a certain man, 'Gather together all the people in Savatthi who have been blind from birth.'" "'As you say, your majesty,' the man replied and, rounding up all the people in Savatthi who had been blind from birth, he went to the king and on arrival said, 'Your majesty, the people in Savatthi who have been blind from birth have been gathered together.' "'Very well then, show the blind people an elephant.' "'As you say, your majesty,' the man replied and he showed the blind people an elephant. To some of the blind people he showed the head of the elephant, saying, 'This, blind people, is what an elephant is like.' To some of them he showed an ear of the elephant, saying, 'This, blind people, is what an elephant is like.' To some of them he showed a tusk... the trunk... the body... a foot... the hindquarters... the tail... the tuft at the end of the tail, saying, 'This, blind people, is what an elephant is like.' "Then, having shown the blind people the elephant, the man went to the king and on arrival said, 'Your majesty, the blind people have seen the elephant. May your majesty do what you think it is now time to do.' "Then the king went to the blind people and on arrival asked them, 'Blind people, have you seen the elephant?' "'Yes, your majesty. We have seen the elephant.' "'Now tell me, blind people, what the elephant is like.' "The blind people who had been shown the head of the elephant replied, 'The elephant, your majesty, is just like a water jar.' "Those who had been shown the ear of the elephant replied, 'The elephant, your majesty, is just like a winnowing basket.' "Those who had been shown the tusk of the elephant replied, 'The elephant, your majesty, is just like an iron rod.' "Those who had been shown the trunk of the elephant replied, 'The elephant, your majesty, is just like the pole of a plow.' "Those who had been shown the body of the elephant replied, 'The elephant, your majesty, is just like a granary.' "Those who had been shown the foot of the elephant replied, 'The elephant, your majesty, is just like a post.' "Those who had been shown the hindquarters of the elephant replied, 'The elephant, your majesty, is just like a mortar.' "Those who had been shown the tail of the elephant replied, 'The elephant, your majesty, is just like a pestle.' "Those who had been shown the tuft at the end of the tail of the elephant replied, 'The elephant, your majesty, is just like a broom.' "Saying, 'The elephant is like this, it's not like that. The elephant's not like that, it's like this,' they struck one another with their fists. That gratified the king. "In the same way, monks, the wanderers of other sects are blind and eyeless. They don't know what is beneficial and what is harmful. They don't know what is the Dhamma and what is non-Dhamma. Not knowing what is beneficial and what is harmful, not knowing what is Dhamma and what is non-Dhamma, they live arguing, quarreling, and disputing, wounding one another with weapons of the mouth, saying, 'The Dhamma is like this, it's not like that. The Dhamma's not like that, it's like this.'" Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: Some of these so-called priests & contemplatives are attached. They quarrel & fight - people seeing one side. #72558 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 9:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. lbidd2 Hi TG, Here is a clarification from the Visuddhimagga. Notice that the kind of understanding talked about in your sutta reference would be classified as "full understanding as investigation", an advanced understanding that does involve reasoning. It follows after "full understanding as the known". This kind of understanding is "direct-knowledge" and includes delimitation of nama and rupa and 'discernment of conditions'. Vism.XX 3. Here is the exposition: there are three kinds of mundane full-understanding, that is, full-understanding as the known, full-understanding as investigation, and full-understanding as abandoning, with reference to which it was said: 'Understanding that is direct-knowledge is knowledge in the sense of being known. Understanding that is full-understanding is knowledge in the sense of investigating. Understanding that is abandoning is knowledge in the sense of giving up' (Ps.i87). Herein, the understanding that occurs by observing the specific characteristics of such and such states thus, 'Materiality (ruupa) has the characteristic of being molested (ruppana); feeling has the characteristic of being felt', is called "full-understanding as the known". The understanding consisting in insight with the general characteristics as its object that occurs in attributing a general characteristic to those same states in the way beginning, 'Materiality is impermanent, feeling is impermanent' is called "full-understanding as investigation". The understanding consisting in insight with the characteristics as its object that occurs as the abandoning of the perception of permanence, etc., in those same states is called "full-understanding as abandoning". 4. Herein, the plane of "full-understanding as the known" extends from the delimitation of formations up to the discernment of conditions; for in this interval the penetration of the specific characteristics predominates. The plane of "full-understanding as investigation" extends from comprehension by groups up to contemplation of rise and fall; for in this interval the penetration of the general characteristics predominates.The plane of "full-understanding as abandoning" extends from contemplation of dissolution onwards; for from there onwards the seven contemplations that effect the abandoning of the perception of permanence, etc., predominate thus: '(1) Contemplating [formations] as impermanent, a man abandons the perception of permanence. (2) Contemplating [them] as painful, he abandons the perception of pleasure. (3) Contemplating [them] as not-self, he abandons the perception of self. (4) Becoming dispassionate, he abandons delighting. (5) Causing fading away, he abandons greed. (6) Causing cessation, he abandons originating. (7) Relinquishing, he abandons grasping' (Ps.i,58). L: There are specific references later on that show that it is necessary to use reason in order to understand the general nature of general characteristics. But first, direct knowledge of paramattha dhammas is necessary. Larry #72559 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. TGrand458@... Hi Ken H In a message dated 5/24/2007 8:17:46 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, kenhowa@... writes: In the past, conditioned dhammas were exactly the way they are now - anicca, dukkha and anatta. Similarly, the conditioned dhammas that will arise in the future will be anicca dukkha and anatta. That is what the Buddha taught. .............................................................. NEW TG: Yes, agreed. A nice bit of reasoning! ................................................................ In our case this is theoretical right understanding (pariyatti), and I think your point is that it cannot be direct right understanding (patipatti, satipatthana)be direct right sure you are right about that. I think panna can directly experience a paramattha dhamma and know, "This is a conditioned dhamma. It is what the Buddha described as being the same as all past and future conditioned dhammas." ......................................................... NEW TG: Yes, Agreed. A nice bit of reasoning. My point though actually is ... that the principles of phenomena: -- impermanence, affliction, no-self, are applicable both in conceptual deduction and contemplation, as well as by monitoring direct experiences with mindfulness. Both have power and both are important. And that the Buddha was interested in leading minds to "turn away" from phenomena, not to try and decipher ultimate realities. ........................................................ --------------------------- TG: > Much of it (most of it) is 'reflective contemplation' and 'inferential deduction' about the nature of things that are not being experienced. For example, how can past, future, external, or far -- material forms, feelings, perceptions, formations or consciousness have anything to do with direct experience? ---------------------------- As I said above. BTW, I have to wonder why you don't know this. ................................................................ NEW TG: Why would you assume I don't know this? It is in fact central to my point. ............................................................ It has been discussed on DSG dozens of times - including quite recently. I wonder why you haven't noticed. Could it be because you have been too busy disputing the ancient texts and putting forth your own original ideas? ................................................................. NEW TG: I doubt it. My assessment of the attitudes and opinions from the members I engage in discussion with comes from those discussions. It is the "Abhidhammika's" ideas that I consider "original ideas." The "ultimate realities" etc. don't jibe with the Suttas. When the Buddha discusses how to "know things as they really are," it is not merely directly knowing paramattha dhammas (if that even counts I'm doubtful), but it is a much broader knowledge and vision of phenomena. .................................................................... ---------------------------------------- TG: > Moreover, the Buddha says that this approach is "SEEING THEM AS THEY ACTUALLY ARE WITH PROPER WISDOM" !!! Oops ... you won't get the Buddha saying anything more closely resembling "realities" than that! This would seem to fly in the face of some viewpoints in this group. ----------------------------------------- No, it doesn't fly in the face of any of the people you are thinking of. In a moment of direct mundane right understanding (satipatthana) there is no attachment ("mine") no conceit ("I am") and no wrong view ("my self"). .............................................................................. . NEW TG: Different topic. ................................................................... ------------------------ TG: > Will this post get conveniently ignored by those claiming otherwise???oth Bring it on! :-) ------------------------- Yes, I suppose so, "bring it on." That's what we're here for. But what is this talk about "ignoring?" No one ignores you. We don't all agree with you, but in spite of that people have shown enormous willingness to discuss your views with you. You and your tag team hold various views that conflict with the views of the Theras (after whom Theravada was named). .................................................... NEW TG: That's rudely said and I'm not sure who the "tag team" is. Let the "Theras" be ... unless its Sariputta, Maha Moggallana, or the like. I'll stick to the Four Great Nikayas. That's where I don't want to be in conflict. Conflict with some commentaries? I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. ............................................................. You think we must have lost our marbles if we prefer the Theras' explanations to yours, and that is fine if it is what you want to think. But let's keep it civilised. ................................................................. NEW TG: Deal with the Sutta and the point. Forget my crazy ideas. Just deal with the Sutta and the point. In your entire post, you have failed to do so. (Well, I'll give you credit for side-swiping the issue.) This I find to be the rule and not the exception when a pertinent quote from the Suttas is laid out that does not square with the "knowing ultimate realities/paramattha dhammas" approach. The issue at hand is ignored or gets dropped. Now, you have actually agreed with my position in your initial responses and yet appear unaware of it. And you don't seem to realize that your agreement then admits to a relevant conceptual aspect to insight development. You have put conceptual analysis on a more or less even plane as that of direct experience. I agree. So we agree, and nothing to be upset about. :-) ....................................................... ------------------------ TG: > PS, one preemptive note, this is Buddha's instruction to others, not his "own omniscience" being discussed. ------------------------ A Buddha's instructions cannot possibly be the same as conventional instructions. Conventional instructions assume the existence of the instructor and the instructed. They assume there is a self that will continue from the present moment to a future moment when it will experience the benefits of instruction. ................................................................ NEW TG: "Conventional language" is the norm in the Suttas and there need not be any assumption of a self unless the listeners are ignorant. Conventional language does not mean a that those listening are stuck with self view. Those listening to the Buddha, and his teachings on conditionality, seemed to be able to surpass "self view thinking" quite handily. The mind does not get rid of self view merely by using "elements," "aggregates," "dhammas" or any other terms...not even a wit. ................................................................. The Buddha denied any such existent beings and any such continuing on. Therefore, isn't his Dhamma a matter of understanding? ..................................................................... NEW TG: Agreed. .................................................................. We don't need all of his omniscient understanding - just a tiny part of it - but that's what it's all about. It certainly can't be about 'instructions' in the ordinary meaning of the word. ......................................................................... NEW TG: Not sure where you're going with this. Hope its not to justify using new terminology (letter and meaning) not found in the Suttas. ................................................................... TG OUT Ken H #72560 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu May 24, 2007 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. TGrand458@... Hi Larry Too late, I'll get back to you tomorrow. GN TG #72561 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 10:36 pm Subject: A Thousand Aeons! bhikkhu5 Friends: Remembering all the Details of a 1000 Universal Cycles! Once when the Venerable Anuruddha was dwelling at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove , AnÄ?thapindika 's Park, a number of Bhikkhus went to the Venerable Anuruddha and exchanged polite greetings with him. Then they sat down & asked the Venerable Anuruddha : Venerable Sir: What has the Venerable Anuruddha developed & cultivated so that he has attained to his famous greatness of direct knowledge? It is, friends, because I have developed and cultivated these four Foundations of Awareness that I have won great direct knowledge. What four? Here, friends, I dwell constantly contemplating upon: The body only as a formed group, neither as I, me, mine nor a self... The feelings only as passing reactions neither I, me, mine nor self... The mind only as habitual & transient moods neither as I, nor self... All phenomena only as constructed mental states not as any real... while eager, clearly comprehending, acutely aware, by that removing all desire & frustration rooted in this world! It is, friends, because I have developed & cultivated these Four Foundations of Awareness that I have attained to greatness of direct knowledge. Furthermore, friends, it is because I have developed & completely refined these 4 Foundations of Awareness, that I can recollect a Thousand Aeons ... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:301-2] section 52: Anuruddha. Thread 11: A Thousand Aeons! Details and references for further study: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/One_and_only_Way.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/Four_Foundations_of_Awareness.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/sa/saavatthi.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/j/jetavana.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/g_m/kappa.htm http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/Sati_Studies.htm A Thousand Aeons! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Ceylon * <....> #72562 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 11:42 pm Subject: Re: Unintelligent Brother and the Cloth christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Chris, > > Good day to you. So happy to see your name here again, it's been a long time > > I think this is a first, Sukin directing Christine to something in the > Texts!! ;-)). > > But still this is only as far as I could get: > > Mahapandaka the older brother and Culapandaka the younger. I think it is in > the Jataka commentaries if I remember right. Searching google didn't get me > much info. Only this one by TB in the context of 'meditation': > > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/impossible_things.htm > Anyway, you got more clues now, so I'm sure you will find what you are > looking for. > > Metta, > > Sukinder Dear Sukin, [...had any AK 47's pointed threateninly at you lately? :-)))) Ah, the good ol' days! [:O] ] Thank you for your post Sukin. I've been moderating over on E-sangha, and busy with my elderly mother ... I went back to part-time work for six months, and had a lovely time getting to know her as a woman for the first time, as she did with me. Her health has improved and so I'm back to full-time work again. Because of the clues you gave ~ I found what I was looking for. Thank you, thank you. Dhammapada Appamaada Vagga "Heedfulness" verse 5 "By their efforts the wise create their own heavens" {Goodness KenH better straighten the Dh. out ~ fancy thinking there is some control! [:)] ] 5. By sustained effort, earnestness, discipline, and self-control, let the wise man make for himself an island, which no flood overwhelms. 25. Story: A young monk, named Cuulapanthaka, could not memorize a verse of four lines despite trying for four months and he was advised by his brother monk to leave the Order. But he was reluctant to do so. The Buddha, understanding his temperament, gave him a clean piece of cloth and asked him to handle it gazing at the morning sun. By his constand handling of it with his sweating hands it soon got soiled. This perceptible change made him reflect on the impermanence of life. He meditated and attained Arahantship. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #72563 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Thu May 24, 2007 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Unintelligent Brother and the Cloth christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi Christine, > > On 24/05/07, Christine Forsyth wrote: > > > > > > I would be grateful for any assistance. Nice to see how energetic DSG > > is ... and g'day to all my old friends :-) > > > > I prefer to think of myself as being one of your young friends :-) > > > Herman > Hello Herman, But naturally! You are a Prime-of-Life friend, or even, an Ageless friend. :-) metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #72564 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 12:38 am Subject: Correction Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. sukinderpal Hi Howard, I've always wanted to ask you this, but for fear of irritating you, never did so. And now with this incident with Han, I am even more wary. So please ignore my questions / comments if you feel that they are annoying. I don't know how much of the Abhidhamma / commentaries you agree with and how much you don't, especially now after you wrote to Larry about subliminal experience. I was greatly surprised by it, since I had a thought of writing to Larry in response to the same letter, that he should take a lesson from "Howard's phenomenalism"! :-) This is what I want to ask: You say: ========================== >>> The jhanas are uncontestably useful in making the mind malleable and a fit instrument for the great work, and would be so even if they were not essential, a hypothetical which I strongly disbelieve. <<< -------- Let us say the object of jhana is breath. Do you maintain that this is a reference to a rupa, namely earth, air or fire elements, or is it in your case the `concept' of breath? My guess is that it must be the latter and that this would be an instance of samatha leading to jhana, right? I've also asked this of Htoo if I remember right, but never got an answer. How with the calm conditioned by the object, in this case "breath", carried over to the next moment, presumably to "know" a paramattha dhamma, which would be a totally different object and hence conditioning it's own set of mental factors? What is the relationship between these two moments? There are other questions such as the one's I asked Dieter, namely what are the conditions leading to jhana. Also about "believing" a teacher's, Leigh Brasington (?), evaluation of your subjective experience, especially when this is about such a deep and profound state as jhana? But later, or maybe I won't even ask…..;-) I'll send this off before I change my mind. Metta, Sukinder #72565 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 1:11 am Subject: Re: Unintelligent Brother and the Cloth sukinderpal Dear Chris, [...had any AK 47's pointed threateninly at you lately? :-)))) Ah, the good ol' days! [:O] ] So far, no. However I think by the time we are done with James' Death series, the next time I'll go ahead and take a photo of the pointed gun itself. :-) And what would that be,…..looking death on the face…or rather through a lens...or shoot the shot :-P. --------------------- Thank you for your post Sukin. I've been moderating over on E-sangha, and busy with my elderly mother ... I went back to part-time work for six months, and had a lovely time getting to know her as a woman for the first time, as she did with me. Her health has improved and so I'm back to full-time work again. I am so happy to hear this and anumodana to you. I wish I could do the same for my parents, but the situation is difficult as you may know. ----------------- Because of the clues you gave ~ I found what I was looking for. Thank you, thank you. I feel proud of myself now. ;-) ---------------- Dhammapada Appamaada Vagga "Heedfulness" verse 5 "By their efforts the wise create their own heavens" {Goodness KenH better straighten the Dh. out ~ fancy thinking there is some control! [:)] ] 5. By sustained effort, earnestness, discipline, and self-control, let the wise man make for himself an island, which no flood overwhelms. 25. Story: A young monk, named Cuulapanthaka, could not memorize a verse of four lines despite trying for four months and he was advised by his brother monk to leave the Order. But he was reluctant to do so. The Buddha, understanding his temperament, gave him a clean piece of cloth and asked him to handle it gazing at the morning sun. By his constand handling of it with his sweating hands it soon got soiled. This perceptible change made him reflect on the impermanence of life. He meditated and attained Arahantship. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yeah, the greatest effort is required in walking the Middle Way. It is so easy to do anything else and at the same time delude oneself into thinking that one is engaging in "Right" effort. I hear that you are joining for the India trip? If so, I look forward to seeing you when you're in Bangkok. Metta, Sukin #72566 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 25, 2007 1:35 am Subject: re: A Basic Question About Mind-Door Processes nilovg Hi Howard, ---------- H: What actually occurs when a rupa is known during a mind-door process? When, for example, warmth is known via body door, there is the knowing of it, the recognizing of it, the feeling of it, attending to it, and so on - the various cetasikas acting on it. What happens later that is different when that "same" warmth is known during the subsequent mind-door process? Is that when it is thought about? ------ N: The mind-door process that immediately follows upon a sense-door process has the same object as that sense-door process. The term photocopy was used. There are other mind-door processes cittas later on which think of details, concepts on account of that sense object. Because of the speed of processes it is hard to know what the mind- door process is, and this is known at the first stage of tender insight. Warmth is known through the bodysense and then through a mind-door, but that heat impinges again and again on the bodysense. ------- H: Or liked or disliked? Or craved or hated? Or what, exactly? ------- N: Also in a sensedoor process there are javanacittas that are kusala or akusala. Because of accumulated inclinations there may be like or dislike, even before knowing more about the object. You can see how anatta it is. Just now there is seeing, and so many processes with javanacittas are going on. Let us face it: mostly there are akusala javanacittas, but how could we trace all that. They are anatta, and also sati sampaja~n~na that can arise sometimes is anatta. No self who could be 'in time' to prevent anything or make anything occur. I know you will answer: conditions can be cultivated, and true, more understanding of realities is the right condition. See how we need the Abhidhamma, so that we understand more of the different processes that occur. No matter we see, we walk or touch different objects, before we even realize it, there are already akusala cittas, for example, with subtle lobha, hardly npoticeable. You spoke about the practice of ongoing mindfulness, but as I see it, in the light of the above, this is impossible. Before one knows the akusala javanacittas have arisen already. The idea of ongoing mindfulness could promote the notion of self who can control. ------- H: Is it a matter of *other* cetasikas acting on the warmth? If that is not it, then what exactly *is* the difference? ------- N: Akusala citta is accompanied by akusala cetasikas, and kusala citta is accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. It depends on conditions what type of citta arises. Beyond control, it is all too fast! Nina. #72567 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 25, 2007 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: impermanent versus inconstant nilovg Hi Larry, We have to distinguish thinking of concepts and the experience of paramattha dhammas, one at a time through one of the six doorways. There is usuelly attasa~n~na instead of anattasa~n~na. We take the flower for the reality, but it is not real in the ultimate sense. A wise man, when he perceives a scarecrow, realizes that the rupa that is visible object falls away immediately. He knows that because of former experiences that are remembered he can think of scarecrow. Nina. Op 25-mei-2007, om 1:46 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > We do not need to think of the other rupas in a kalapa, they cannot be > experienced." > > L: True, but that is how we do experience in the ordinary way. We know > that a flower is not merely visible data. And in fact that is the > reality. Perception helps us understand without experiencing, but it > sometimes gets it wrong: a young deer sees the visible data of a > scarecrow and perceives that that visible data is a sign of the > nama and > rupa of a man. A wise man sees the visible data of a scarecrow and > perceives that that visible data is the sign of the various rupas of a > scarecrow. #72568 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 1:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Impermanent versus inconstant. gazita2002 hello Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Azita, > > A: "What experiences the > facsimile?" > > L: 5-door consciousness. azita: do you mean the consciousness that actually first experiences the object as it presents to that particular door eg seeing consciousness? If this is so, then it is not a facsimile of a reality, it is a reality. It is a rupa that can only be experienced by cakkhu-vin~n~ana - seeing consciousness. Say you wear glasses and you are looking at an > apple. Glasses on, clear apple. Glasses off, blurred apple. Clear, > blurred, clear, blurred. Based on many experiences we know the visible > data of the apple doesn't change from clear to blurred. It is the visual > experience that changes. azita: but dont forget that all the while you are 'glasses on, glasses off, etc' the actual visible object is changing almost as quickly as the seeing-consciousness'ssss :-) Larry, I think its a very difficult, in fact, I would say impossible undertaking to mix conventional truths with ultimate truths, and make sense of it. For example, the above apple is a concept if we are going to talk about objects and experiences changing. I think I understand what you are trying to point out, but for me, the most important issue is that both object and experience change, or rather arise and then cease to be. However, their very arising and ceasing are conditions for the next arising and ceasing and on and on ..... Patience, courage and good cheer, azita. #72569 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 25, 2007 1:56 am Subject: Re: Correction Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. nilovg Hi Howard, you make me laugh. On the contrary. It deals with different cittas. Take Human Types by Four: How is a person one who knows little and does not act up to what he has learnt, who knows little and acts up to what he has learnt, who has much learnt and does not act up to what he has learnt, who has much learnt and acts up to what he has learnt? We have to ask ourselves; what about 'our'citta now. This counts for the whole of the Abhidhamma. Then we can study it in a fruitful way. Nina. Op 24-mei-2007, om 21:48 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Rather atypical Abhidhamma, right, Nina? It deals with types of > persons? #72570 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 25, 2007 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: impermanent versus inconstant nilovg Hi Howard, No, citta is one of the four factors that can produce rupa. Nama conditions rupa and rupa conditions nama. H: Visual rupa and visible object are, for me, one and the same. N: Before the visible can be an object, it is impinging on the eyedoor. It is not known immediately, but soon afterwards. Rupa is weak at its arising moment and cannot be doorway or object at that moment, but the arising moment is extremely short. We cannot count or notice such moments. Abhidhamma and satipatthana go hand in hand and thus the emphasis is always on: what appears now. Not on abstractions. This must make you happy, I gather:-)). Nina Op 24-mei-2007, om 22:03 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > You countenance rupas > as consciousness-independent phenomena. #72571 From: "gazita2002" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 2:46 am Subject: Re: Unintelligent Brother and the Cloth gazita2002 Hello Chris, I remember the story about the AK 47's :-) wondering if you still live at Logan as I sent a couple of copies of Nina's 'Perfections' to that address? If you havent received them, write me off-list and I can forward some more copiies. Hope you are well. Azita p.s. I'm gonna be a grandma!!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > Dear Sukin, > > [...had any AK 47's pointed threateninly at you lately? :-)))) Ah, the > good ol' days! [:O] ] > > Thank you for your post Sukin. I've been moderating over on E- sangha, > and busy with my elderly mother ... Patience, courage and good cheer, azita #72572 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri May 25, 2007 3:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Unintelligent Brother and the Cloth sarahprocter... Hi Chris, Good to see you around and to hear that you and your mother are well. We are fortunate to have the opportunity to spend time with our mothers and assist when we can, aren't we? I don't see my mother as much as she or I would like, but when we had a short visit in England recently she mentioned that she could talk to me more easily about anything on her mind than to anyone else. Considering the geographical distance and the fact that we have such different beliefs and ways of life, it was a very sweet thing for her to say. .... --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > Can anyone remind me please of the scripture where a Bhikkhu is a > little ashamed of his younger brother who is 'not so bright'. .... S: Now you've found the text, I see in Dhp-a. Looking at the title and these comments, we have to question what the meaning of 'intelligence' really is. Also, his brother was an arahant, so I don't think he'd have felt 'ashamed' of his brother:-). .. > The Buddha sees what is happening and askes the younger brother to > meditate (?) while stroking a cloth. As he strokes, the cloth becomes > soiled and this brings Understanding to the younger brother, which was > not dependent on intellectual knowledge. .... S: Just a few aeons of hearing and considering the teachings under various Buddhas:-). Also, just because he couldn't remember the words of a stanza doesn't mean that his brother's teachings on Abhidhamma were wasted. The Buddha knew what was the right thing at the right time given his accumulations and 'ripeness' for the very highest intelligence: Arahatship with all patisambhidas and so on. You may like to review the following: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24981 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/25148 .... >Nice to see how energetic DSG > is ... and g'day to all my old friends :-) .... S: G'day and hugs to you too, Chris :-). Metta, Sarah p.s Send my best wishes to your young as well. ====== #72573 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 5:17 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear Herman (to read when you're at work!): I found a bit more regarding: ["Ya.m kho, braahmana, aarabbadhaatuya sati aarabhavanto sattaa pa~n~nayanti, aya.m sattaana.m attakaaro aya.m parakaaro." Me: The PTS PED has: "Aarambha...1. attempt, effort, inception of energy...def. as kicca, kara.niiya, attha, i. e. 1. undertaking & duty, 2. object)...2. support, ground, object, thing..." And: "Aarabbha...1. beginning, undertaking etc., in cpd. Ëšvatthu occasion for making an effort, concern, duty, obligation..."] SN46,2(2), Bh. Bodhi translation: "...And what, bhikkhus, is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of energy and for the fulfillment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of energy? There are, bhikkhus, the element of arousal, the element of endeavour, the element of exertion: frequent giving careful attention to them is the nutriment for the arising of the unarisen enlightenment factor of energy and for the fulfillment by development of the arisen enlightenment factor of energy." Scott: In Note 60: "Spk: The element of arousal (aarambahadhaatu) is the initial phase of energy, the element of endeavour (nikkamadhaatu) intermediate energy, the element of exertion (parakkamadhaatu) energy at full intensity." Scott: I think, especially when 'elements' are made mention of, that there can be no confusion that one is speaking here, not of persons, but of moments of consciousness - cittas and cetasikas. The 'energetic person' is, to me, a manner of speaking and is in reference to a particular citta which has viriya arising concomitantly, and to the states related and subsequent to the arising of this 'person'. In Sammohavinodanii, the 'element of arousal', as given by Bh. Bodhi, is referred to as 'the element of initiating' (aarambhadhaatu). In a section regarding 'thiinamiddha' (stiffness and torpor [of the citta, I add], the following is noted: "1267. But its abandoning comes about through wise bringing to mind in regard to the element of initiating (aarambahadhaatu), etc. The 'element of initiating' is a name for the first initial energy. The 'element of launching' (nikkamadhaatu), because of going forth (nikkantattaa) from indolence, is stronger than the last; the 'element of furthering (parakkamadhattu), because of proceeding to further stages (para.m para.m .thaana.m akkamanato), is stronger than the last. Because of employing wise bringing to mind much in regard to that threefold energy, stiffness and torpor comes to be abandoned." Scott: Here, I think, is shown the development of energy (in relation to thiinamiddha, as an example) and this shows how there is viriya but no one exercising or commanding it. It is an 'element' which arises due to conditions and develops, in conjunction with other mental factors. Sincerely, Scott. #72574 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 25, 2007 5:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... nilovg Hi James, look at the heading: WHAT GOVERNS THE DIFFERENCE IN THE NOBLE PATH'S ENLIGHTENENT FACTORS, ETC.. This is the Noble Path that is lokuttara. All eight factors arise together, unless they are accompanied by the factors of higher jhana. Concentration has the strength equal to the first mundane jhana, remember former posts about this. This counts for everyone, allo for dry insight workers. There is a difference between individuals and they are listed. why would a bare insightworker be mentioned separately if it would be the same as no 2? We have to be careful with the term jhana: is it mundane or lokuttara? ------ James wrote before: The first Great Council came together so that the Dhamma wouldn't be lost and now, you Nina, push people up against a wall and ask them to accept misinterpretations of the Dhamma or otherwise risk being labeled "emotional"? ------ N: At the Great Council also the Abh and the commentaries were rehearsed. We need the ancient commentaries, otherwise we misread the suttas. -------- J:Really, Nina, if the truth of the Dhamma isn't a great matter to you then you have no business teaching it to anyone. (Oh gosh, am I being too emotional?? ------- N: I am not teaching, I am stuying the truth of Dhamma. As Sarah said: we study together and like to share with others what we learn. Meditation is not for special occasions, but for now: am I emotive or not, what is citta now like? We do need the Abh to understand more about ourselves, that helps in daily life. Don't we need all the help that is possible in daily life. It touched me what you wrote about the precepts with tears in your heart. But vipassana in daily life could make things lighter for you. Sila can be observed with understanding of the cittas that arise. Is that not a gain? Smoke curtain is not such a good term, you imply that the other person is not sincere. But I guess this is the James language. What do I gain by converting you to dry insight? Insight is very difficult, the Vis. lists in the same chapter all the stages. No small matter. Why put it off, doing other things first? The cycle is already long enough. with Azita I wish you patience, courage, good cheer. Nina. Op 25-mei-2007, om 3:19 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > PATHS OF THE FIRST JHANA ONLY: > 1.Bare-Insight worker (dry-insight) > 2.Jhana attainer who doesn't use jhana for insight > 3.Jhana attainer who uses jhana for insight but comprehends unrelated > formations > > Therefore, according to the Vism., even a "dry-insight worker" has > achieved at least the first jhana. Let me repeat that: A dry-insight > worker is one who has achieved the first jhana! #72575 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 25, 2007 5:51 am Subject: Conditions Ch 1, no 6 nilovg Dear friends, Not only cittas of the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas, which are accompanied by roots, are conditioned by these roots by way of root-condition, hetu- paccaya, also cittas of higher planes of consciousness, namely jhånacittas and lokuttara cittas, are conditioned by the accompanying roots by way of hetu-paccaya. As to rúpåvacara cittas (rúpa-jhånacittas), rúpåvacara kusala citta, rúpåvacara vipåkacitta and rúpåvacara kiriyacitta (of the arahat) produce rúpa. That rúpa is then conditioned by the hetus accompanying the rúpa-jhånacittas by way of hetu- paccaya. As to arúpåvacara cittas (arúpa-jhånacittas), arúpåvacara kusala citta and arúpåvacara kiriyacitta produce rúpa, and these rúpas are then conditioned by the hetus accompanying those cittas by way of hetu-paccaya. Arúpåvacara vipåkacittas do not produce any rúpa; these cittas which are the result of arúpa- jhåna, arise in arúpa-brahma planes where there is no rúpa,only nåma [1]. Lokuttara cittas produce rúpa [2]. The rúpa is then conditioned by hetus which are lokuttara, by way of hetu-paccaya. In the "Patthåna'' we read about many aspects of conditional relations between phenomena and we should consider these in our daily life. The study of root- condition can remind us to consider whether there is kusala citta or akusala citta while we act, speak or think. ----------- Footnotes: 1. The rebirth-consciousness in a higher plane of existence, namely, in a rúpa-brahma plane or an arúpa-brahma plane, is the result of jhåna. 2. In the planes of existence where there are nåma and rúpa, citta produces rúpas such as solidity, heat, suppleness, etc. throughout life. The lokuttara citta which experiences nibbåna also produces rúpas. ******* Nina. #72576 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 25, 2007 6:01 am Subject: Perfections N, no 34 nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 9 THE PERFECTION OF METTA Mettä, lovingkindness, is another of the perfections the Bodhisatta developed. He had lovingkindness for all beings and he was always intent on their welfare, no matter whether he was an animal or a human being. The perfection of mettã is mentioned immediately after the perfection of determination. The commentary to the Cariyapitaka 1) gives the reasons for this: a) Because lovingkindness perfects the determination to undertake activity for the welfare of others. b) In order to list the work of actually providing for the welfare of others right after stating the determination to do so, for 'one determined upon the requisites of enlightenment abides in lovingkindness" c) Because the undertaking (of activity for the welfare of others) proceeds imperturbably only when determination is unshakable. The same commentary 2) also states that one should reflect on metta as follows: "One resolved only upon his own welfare cannot achieve success in this world, or a happy rebirth in the life to come, he cannot succeed without some concern for the welfare of others; how then, can one wishing to establish all beings in the attainment of nibbana, succeed without lovingkindness?... 'I cannot provide for the welfare and happiness of others merely by wishing for it. Let me put forth effort to accomplish it.' " The commentary states that one should arouse an especially strong inclination towards promoting the welfare of all beings. Further on we read: ". . .And why should lovingkindness be developed towards all beings? Because it is the foundation for compassion. For when one delights in providing for the welfare and happiness of other beings with an unbounded heart, the desire to remove their affliction and suffering becomes powerful and firmly rooted. And compassion is the first of all the dhammas issuing in Buddhahood- their footing, foundation, root, head and chief." When we develop mettä we should not cling to any gain for ourselves. We may be inclined to develop metta because we cling to calm. When we are angry, we have aversion about our anger and, since anger is so unpleasant, we want to subdue it by try-ing to develop mettä. However, metta cannot be developed if there is no right understanding of kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala. Mettã cannot be developed when we take for kusala what is akusala. We cling to calm, we cling to an idea of self who should have metta and then the citta is akusala. We should have a detailed knowledge of the different types of cittas which arise and which motivate our thoughts about others, our actions and speech. ----------- 1. Ven. Bodhi, p. 259. 2. Ibidem, p. 284. ******* Nina. #72577 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 25, 2007 2:13 am Subject: My Meditation Re: Correction Re: A Bit More Re: [dsg] jhaana and superpowers. upasaka_howard Hi,Sukin - In a message dated 5/25/07 3:40:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I've always wanted to ask you this, but for fear of irritating you, never > did so. And now with this incident with Han, I am even more wary. So > please ignore my questions / comments if you feel that they are > annoying. > > I don't know how much of the Abhidhamma / commentaries you agree > with and how much you don't, especially now after you wrote to Larry > about subliminal experience. I was greatly surprised by it, since I had a > thought of writing to Larry in response to the same letter, that he should > take a lesson from "Howard's phenomenalism"! :-) > > This is what I want to ask: > > You say: > ========================== > >>>The jhanas are uncontestably useful in making the mind malleable > and a > fit instrument for the great work, and would be so even if they were not > essential, a hypothetical which I strongly disbelieve. <<< > -------- > > Let us say the object of jhana is breath. Do you maintain that this is a > reference to a rupa, namely earth, air or fire elements, or is it in your > case the `concept' of breath? My guess is that it must be the latter and > that this would be an instance of samatha leading to jhana, right? -------------------------------------------- Howard: I can only tell you about how *I* meditate on the breath. At first, concept is surely involved, for that is how I distinguish "the breath" form other things, how I distinguish in-breath from out-breath, and how I distinguish long breath from short, as per the Buddha's instructions(!). But, very shortly, what I purposely attend to are bodily sensations of touch, softness, motion, warmth, coolness, etc - that is, I attend to the experiential, rupic realities that are the basis upon which "the breath" is imputed. My meditation is an in-tandem one aimed at cultivating both ease and clarity. Recently I wrote a friend of mine offlist describing my meditation. I'll quote from it here: <> -------------------------------------------- > > I've also asked this of Htoo if I remember right, but never got an > answer. How with the calm conditioned by the object, in this > case "breath", carried over to the next moment, presumably to "know" a > paramattha dhamma, which would be a totally different object and > hence conditioning it's own set of mental factors? What is the > relationship between these two moments? > > There are other questions such as the one's I asked Dieter, namely > what are the conditions leading to jhana. Also about "believing" a > teacher's, Leigh Brasington (?), evaluation of your subjective > experience, especially when this is about such a deep and profound > state as jhana? But later, or maybe I won't even ask…..;-) > > I'll send this off before I change my mind. > > Metta, > > Sukinder > > ============================ I hope this gives you some perspective on what my meditation is. You, of course, are free to evaluate it however you wish. For me, it is a faithful interpretation of the Buddha's teaching. In any case, it works well for me. With metta, Howard #72578 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri May 25, 2007 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... jonoabb Hi James buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Nina, Howard, and All, > > ... > > >From Chapter XXI DESCRIPTION OF PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION > OF THE WAY > 111. WHAT GOVERNS THE DIFFERENCE IN THE NOBLE PATH'S ENLIGHTENENT > FACTORS, ETC.... > > 112. To deal with these [three theories] in order: According to > governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight (dry-insight) > worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment > but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path > made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the > first jhana as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhana only. > > James: This section of the Vism. could be easily misread if one > doesn't take into account the entire sentence. Here is what the > basics of this sentence reads: > > PATHS OF THE FIRST JHANA ONLY: > 1.Bare-Insight worker (dry-insight) > 2.Jhana attainer who doesn't use jhana for insight > 3.Jhana attainer who uses jhana for insight but comprehends unrelated > formations > I'd like to suggest a minor correction to your summary. I think it should read: 1. Bare-Insight worker (dry-insight) 2. Jhana attainer (any level) who doesn't use jhana for insight 3. First-jhana attainer who uses jhana for insight. In (2), the person is a person who has attained any level of mundane jhana, but the jhana does not form the basis for insight. In (3), the person is a person who has attained first jhana only. > Therefore, according to the Vism., even a "dry-insight worker" has > achieved at least the first jhana. Let me repeat that: A dry-insight > worker is one who has achieved the first jhana! > This is your interpretation of the text. Please consider the following: (a) The text does not actually say that a dry-insight worker is a person who has achieved first jhana. What it says is that his path is the *path of the first jhana only*. This needs to be read in the light of all lokuttara cittas being reckoned as being of one or other of the five jhanas (as in the later passage you also quote). (b) If the dry-insight worker was a person who had achieved jhana, there would be no distinction between him and the person at (2), the one who has attained jhana but 'doesn't use jhana for insight'. > ... > Of course, Nina, you could choose to disagree with the Vism. (But > please, whatever you do, don't dodge this post or pass it on to > someone else.) > Actually, I think it's you who are not in agreement with the Vism ;-)) Jon #72579 From: connie Date: Fri May 25, 2007 6:33 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (56) nichiconn dear friends, part 2 of 4: Guttaa, daughter of a brahmin of Savatthi -- Satthaa disvaa ta.m anugga.nhanto, gandhaku.tiya.m yathaanisinnova obhaasa.m pharitvaa tassaa aasanne aakaase nisinna.m viya attaana.m dassetvaa ovadanto- 163. "Gutte yadattha.m pabbajjaa, hitvaa putta.m vasu.m piya.m; tameva anubruuhehi, maa cittassa vasa.m gami. 164. "Cittena va~ncitaa sattaa, maarassa visaye rataa; anekajaatisa.msaara.m, sandhaavanti aviddasuu. 165. "Kaamaacchanda~nca byaapaada.m, sakkaayadi.t.thimeva ca; siilabbataparaamaasa.m, vicikiccha.m ca pa~ncama.m. 166. "Sa.myojanaani etaani, pajahitvaana bhikkhunii; orambhaagamaniiyaani, nayida.m punarehisi. 167. "Raaga.m maana.m avijja~nca, uddhacca~nca vivajjiya; sa.myojanaani chetvaana, dukkhassanta.m karissasi. 168. "Khepetvaa jaatisa.msaara.m, pari~n~naaya punabbhava.m; di.t.theva dhamme nicchaataa, upasantaa carissasii"ti.- Imaa gaathaa aabhaasi. The Teacher saw her, and still seated in the Perfumed Chamber, he sent forth his radiance to help her. Then, he made himself appear as though seated in the sky, and instructing her, he spoke these verses: 163. Guttaa, give up your son and the wealth that are equally dear to you, and devote yourself to that very thing for the sake of which you went forth. Do not go under the influence of the mind. 164. Creatures, deceived by mind, delighting in Maara's realm, run through the journeying on of numerous rebirths, ignorant. 165-166. Desire for sensual pleasures, and malevolence, and the [false] view of individuality, misapprehension about rules of virtuous conduct and vows, and uncertainty as fifth - abandoning these fetters that lead to the lower world, bhikkhunii, you will not come to this again. 167. Avoiding desire, pride, and ignorance, and conceit, cutting the fetters, you will put an end to pain. 168. Annihilating journeying on from rebirth to rebirth, comprehending and giving up renewed existence, you will wander in the world of phenomena, without hunger, stilled. RD: Then the Master, to encourage her, sent forth glory, and appeared near her, as if seated in the air, saying these words: Bethink thee, Guttaa, of that high reward *280 For which thou wast content to lose thy world, Renouncing hope of children, lure of wealth. To that direct and consecrate the mind, Nor give thyself to sway of truant thoughts. (163) Deceivers ever are the thoughts of men, Fain for the haunts where Maara finds his prey; And running ever on from birth to birth, To the dread circle bound - a witless world. (164) But thou, O Sister, bound to other goals, Thine is't to break those Fetters five: the lust Of sense, ill-will, delusion of the Self, The taint of rites and ritual, and doubt, (165) That drag thee backward to the hither shore. 'Tis not for thee to come again to this! (166) Get thee away from life-lust,*281 from conceit, From ignorance, and from distraction's craze; Sunder the bonds; so only shalt thou come To utter end of Ill. Throw off the Chain (167) Of birth and death - thou knowest what they mean. So, free from craving, in this life on earth, Thou shalt go on thy way calm and serene. (168) *280 Attho, good, advantage, profit. *281 Longing to live again, embodied or disembodied. This and the following three terms are the last five Fetters, 'the sundering of which leads immediately to Arahantship.' See Rhys Davids, American Lectures, 141-152. ===tbc, connie #72580 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 25, 2007 3:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: A Basic Question About Mind-Door Processes upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/25/07 4:37:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > ---------- > > H: What actually occurs when a rupa is known during a mind-door process? > When, for example, warmth is known via body door, there is the > knowing of it, > the recognizing of it, the feeling of it, attending to it, and so on > - the > various cetasikas acting on it. What happens later that is different > when that > "same" warmth is known during the subsequent mind-door process? Is > that when it > is thought about? > > ------ > > N: The mind-door process that immediately follows upon a sense-door > process has the same object as that sense-door process. The term > photocopy was used. There are other mind-door processes cittas later > on which think of details, concepts on account of that sense object. > > Because of the speed of processes it is hard to know what the mind- > door process is, and this is known at the first stage of tender > insight. Warmth is known through the bodysense and then through a > mind-door, but that heat impinges again and again on the bodysense. > > ------- > > H: Or liked or disliked? Or craved or hated? Or what, exactly? > ------- > > N: Also in a sensedoor process there are javanacittas that are kusala > or akusala. Because of accumulated inclinations there may be like or > dislike, even before knowing more about the object. You can see how > anatta it is. > > Just now there is seeing, and so many processes with javanacittas are > going on. Let us face it: mostly there are akusala javanacittas, but > how could we trace all that. They are anatta, and also sati > sampaja~n~na that can arise sometimes is anatta. No self who could be > 'in time' to prevent anything or make anything occur. I know you will > answer: conditions can be cultivated, and true, more understanding of > realities is the right condition. See how we need the Abhidhamma, so > that we understand more of the different processes that occur. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Actually, the one thing that I wanted to know, the Abhidhamma distinction between knowing a rupa through 5-sense door and through the mind door is exactly what I'm not being told. Not very satisfying. I do give credence to mind-door knowing of rupas. While I don't know the details, I do experientially seem to detect a difference between that and 5-sense-door knowing. (Meditative attention actually does enable some "seeing", Nina.) I also do not dismiss water element being known only through the mind door, and I don't mean as concept, because my personal experience in meditating is that there is a "subtlety" to the sensing of water element quite different from that of sensing warmth or hardness, for example. ------------------------------------------------ > > No matter we see, we walk or touch different objects, before we even > realize it, there are already akusala cittas, for example, with > subtle lobha, hardly npoticeable. > > You spoke about the practice of ongoing mindfulness, but as I see it, > in the light of the above, this is impossible. Before one knows the > akusala javanacittas have arisen already. The idea of ongoing > mindfulness could promote the notion of self who can control. -------------------------------------------- Howard: I consider this to be nonsense, contrary to the Buddha's teaching, and a guarantee for one who accepts this that s/he will never engage Abhidhamma as more than an academic exercise. I'm sorry, Nina, but a perspective that if an endeavor isn't perfect right now, then it is worthless is a destructive perspective, and letting the fear of notion-of-self disable what is needed for its very destruction is a sad irony. Do you think that the right effort, based on a practice of ongoing mindfulness, that the Buddha urged should be eschewed, because it could foster the notion of self? My God, Nina - don't worry about fostering self by engaging in kusala Dhamma practice! We're ensconced in self right now, and intentional Dhamma practice is the way out. ---------------------------------------------- > > ------- > > H: Is it a matter of *other* cetasikas acting on the warmth? If that > is not it, > then what exactly *is* the difference? > > ------- > > N: Akusala citta is accompanied by akusala cetasikas, and kusala > citta is accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. It depends on conditions > what type of citta arises. Beyond control, it is all too fast! --------------------------------------------- Howard: So, I guess what you are saying is "I don't know" or "The Abhidhamma doesn't say". Okay. ---------------------------------------- > > Nina. > ================== With metta, Howard #72581 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri May 25, 2007 3:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. TGrand458@... Hi Larry In a message dated 5/24/2007 11:05:07 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi TG, Here is a clarification from the Visuddhimagga. Notice that the kind of understanding talked about in your sutta reference would be classified as "full understanding as investigation"as "full understanding as investigat does involve reasoning. ............................................................ NEW TG: Sounds good to me. ............................................................. It follows after "full understanding as the known". This kind of understanding is "direct-knowledge" and includes delimitation of nama and rupa and 'discernment of conditions'. ................................................................ NEW TG: This also sounds good. Both this and the above are important factors in insight development. Now, had the Visuddhi gone further here and talked about "realities," that would be another matter. ................................................................... Vism.XX 3. Here is the exposition: there are three kinds of mundane full-understanding, that is, full-understanding as the known, full-understanding as investigation, and full-understanding as abandoning, with reference to which it was said: 'Understanding that is direct-knowledge is knowledge in the sense of being known. Understanding that is full-understanding is knowledge in the sense of investigating. Understanding that is abandoning is knowledge in the sense of giving up' (Ps.i87). ..................................................................... NEW TG: This sounds good. Notice that "abandoning" is the (desired) end culmination and result of investigation and direct knowledge. ....................................................................... Herein, the understanding that occurs by observing the specific characteristics of such and such states thus, 'Materiality (ruupa) has the characteristic of being molested (ruppana); feeling has the characteristic of being felt', is called "full-understanding as the known". The understanding consisting in insight with the general characteristics as its object that occurs in attributing a general characteristic to those same states in the way beginning, 'Materiality is impermanent, feeling is impermanent' is called "full-understanding as investigation"investigation". The understanding consisting in characteristics as its object that occurs as the abandoning of the perception of permanence, etc., in those same states is called "full-understanding as abandoning". 4. Herein, the plane of "full-understanding as the known" extends from the delimitation of formations up to the discernment of conditions; for in this interval the penetration of the specific characteristics predominates. The plane of "full-understanding as investigation" extends from comprehension by groups up to contemplation of rise and fall; for in this interval the penetration of the general characteristics predominates.predominates.The plane of "full-understanding as a from contemplation of dissolution onwards; for from there onwards the seven contemplations that effect the abandoning of the perception of permanence, etc., predominate thus: '(1) Contemplating [formations] as impermanent, a man abandons the perception of permanence. (2) Contemplating [them] as painful, he abandons the perception of pleasure. (3) Contemplating [them] as not-self, he abandons the perception of self. (4) Becoming dispassionate, he abandons delighting. (5) Causing fading away, he abandons greed. (6) Causing cessation, he abandons originating. (7) Relinquishing, he abandons grasping' (Ps.i,58). ................................................. NEW TG: All good stuff. ................................................. L: There are specific references later on that show that it is necessary to use reason in order to understand the general nature of general characteristics. But first, direct knowledge of paramattha dhammas is necessary. ............................................................... NEW TG: Well here I'd have a different comment. Reasoning is a process that is necessary throughout. It comes in the early stages of insight development, the middle stages, and the ending stages. Direct knowledge is a "field of observation" whereby the knowledge of impermanence, affliction, and no-self become more deeply realized and inculcated and therefore increase the minds ability to "turn away" from conditions altogether. Thanks for the great references and comments Larry. TG OUT Larry #72582 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri May 25, 2007 4:16 am Subject: "Seeing Phenomena They Really Are" ... vs ... "Seeing Realities" TGrand458@... Hi All In discussions with Sarah, she explained to me that the "Sutta justification" for the idea of "seeing realities" comes from the Buddha's instructions to "see things as they really are." I responded that "seeing things as they really are" is quite a different meaning than "seeing realities." I don't recall the conversation going further than that. In the Suttas, where it is discussed --seeing things as they really are -- the accompanying material includes analytical deductive thought processes; I.E. reasoning and thinking. The Buddha even often instructs to see phenomena in terms of various metaphors...such as "a murderer with sword raised," etc. And also, direct experience is also a significant part of such material. There is a problem when "seeing things as they really are" gets tangled with the idea of "seeing realities." For one thing, "seeing things as they really are has no ontological overtones. "Seeing Realities" most certainly does. IMO, this skews the Buddha's teachings to say something they actually don't say. Then, this skewed vision becomes the foundation for a sect of Buddhism that is based on commentarial thought and not founded on the teachings of the Buddha. Therefore, the practices, viewpoints, and conclusions channel down a finely directed course of thought that to a large degree does not jibe with the Suttas. Actually, all sects of Buddhism have pretty much developed from taking bits and pieces out of the Suttas and focusing on some to the exclusion of others. This is dangerous enough without taking "bits" that are actually misconstructions of the Buddha's teachings. Well, I wouldn't even have too big a problem with that except that these commentarial constructions are "called the Buddha's teaching." I like Ken H's approach of calling them the "teaching of the Theras." Its just vague enough to be somewhat allowable. Interpreting the Suttas requires a delicate sensibility. I believe the Buddha said just what he wanted to say in just the way he wanted to say it. Interpretations should be very cautiously made...and made with the understanding that they may very well be wrong. This certainly includes mine as well. TG #72583 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri May 25, 2007 4:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/25/07 8:34:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, you kindly wrote to James the following: > But vipassana in daily life > could make things lighter for you. In a post to me, though, you wrote the following: > You spoke about the practice of ongoing mindfulness, but as I see it, > in the light of the above, this is impossible. What is the "vipassana in daily life" you recommend, Nina? Is it something different from ongoing mindfulness? Something more? Something less? To me, vipassana is wisdom. It cannot be "practiced". It can only be cultivated. More immediately cultivatable is "mindfulness in daily life," which is exactly what I mean by "ongoing mindfulness", a practice of staying present under varying circumstances, whether engaging in "formal meditation" or going about ordinary activities, highlighting exactly what arises in the moment and avoiding getting lost in thought, excitement, or sloth & torpor. That practice, along with other aspects of Dhamma practice, can serve to cultivate mindfulness, clarity, ease, and objectivity in the shorter run, and wisdom in the longer run. With metta, Howard #72584 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 8:54 am Subject: Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... buddhatrue Hi Nina and Jon, Well, there isn't much I can do when I specifically quote from the Vism. and you both offer all sorts of strange interpretations. But, really, I can't blame you too much because the sentence in question is constructed so oddly that it could easily be misread. I have read many secondary sources which refer to the "dry-insight worker" as one who hasn't achieved jhana. However, just today I looked it up in the Vism. for myself for the first time and that isn't what it says at all. It describes three types of individuals and states quite clearly, when one reads and considers the entire sentence, that they each achieve the first jhana only. It then goes on to state that they each achieve eight enlightenment factors, five jhana factors, etc. and that their insight is accompanied by joy. This clearly means that they have each achieved the first jhana. It can't mean anything else. Now, both of you crack me up because you ask me: If that's so, then what's the difference between one and two? LOL! Do I look like Buddhaghosa?? I didn't write the darn thing! I am just reading what it states. He doesn't clarify any of these types; he just gives a very brief description (as they are actually the theories of other bhikkhus, as he explains in the first paragraph). From the descriptions, types one, two, and three could be interpreted in many different types of ways. However, the one thing they have in common is that they have all three achieved the first jhana. Unless the term "bare-insight" or "dry-insight" worker is defined differently somewhere else in the Vism., I will stick to my reading. (When you read something, it is best to read with fresh eyes. Don't be influenced by what you have read in the past). Metta, James Ps. Nina, thank you for your kind concern about the "tears in my heart" but don't take it too seriously. I was just being poetic (and a bit melodramatic ;-)). #72585 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 25, 2007 11:23 am Subject: q. RE: what is sati nilovg Dear Nidhi, Nidhi: so sanna makes one believe that one understands what one is reading. but since its not by direct experience its a false idea. ------- Nina: Sa~n~naa accompanies each citta, it is not sa~n~naa that makes one believe that one understands. When there is no direct experience yet, there can be correct intellectual understanding. That is a good foundation. ------- Nidhi: so it must follow that danger of wrong meditation lies here too. ....meditation is making the strengthening the self view (volition majorly) and intellect makes the sanna strengthened. ------- Nina: I think you ascribe too much to sa~n~na. At each moment sa~n`naa is different, depending on the citta it accompanies. There is attasa~n~naa, wrong remembrance of self and anattaa- sa~n~naa, right remembrance of non-self. The development of understanding of what appears now leads to anattaa-sa~n~naa. ------- Nidhi: so the question is what is the right way of reading ? what is right effort, while reading, so that one doesnt form the opinions, and directly percieve what one is reading. ----- Nina: Actually, reading, study, considering, asking questions, listening to the right friends, all these factors help to have correct understanding of reality. Right effort is a cetasika accompanying kusala citta. But we are likely to take it for my effort. In the beginning there cannot yet be direct underatdnign of what one reads, it is a long process. ------- Nidhi: i think reading corrects one's views also, but at times makes one believe that one knows what reality is, whereas in fact one doesn't know actually. ------- Nina: you observed that very well. When one realizes where one goes wrong it is already a beginning of the cure. It is adegree of understanding and understanding can grow. Nina. #72586 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 25, 2007 11:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... nilovg Hi James, thank you for your kind post. The Vis. also mentions dry insight elsewhere, if you care to know. Ch XXIII, 18 (Nanamoli): who do not attain cessation: < no ordinary men, no Stream Enterers or Once-returners, and no Non-returners and Arahats who are bare-insight workers, attain it.> The Tiika in footnote to I, 6: The last words may interest you, I remember a remark of yours emphasizing impermanence. Nina Op 25-mei-2007, om 17:54 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Unless the term "bare-insight" or "dry-insight" worker is defined > differently somewhere else in the Vism., I will stick to my reading. #72587 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri May 25, 2007 12:03 pm Subject: re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... nilovg Hi Howard, -------- H: What is the "vipassana in daily life" you recommend, Nina? Is it something different from ongoing mindfulness? Something more? Something less? To me, vipassana is wisdom. It cannot be "practiced". It can only be cultivated. More immediately cultivatable is "mindfulness in daily life," which is exactly what I mean by "ongoing mindfulness", a practice of staying present under varying circumstances, whether engaging in "formal meditation" or going about ordinary activities, highlighting exactly what arises in the moment and avoiding getting lost in thought, excitement, or sloth & torpor. That practice, along with other aspects of Dhamma practice, can serve to cultivate mindfulness, clarity, ease, and objectivity in the shorter run, and wisdom in the longer run. --------- N: Now you have made yourself clearer. The words ongoing got me confused. I thought you meant: kusala, kusala, kusala continuously. Sati accompanies each kusala citta. Realizing that even whilst seeing now or writing to you, touching the keyboard, there are innumerable javanacittas we do not know. But when the objective is not dana, sila or bhavana there are akusala cittas. Even in the midst of kusala, such as giving, there are seeing, hearing etc. and if we do not realize them as different types of nama, there are bound to be akusala cittas. The Abhidhamma really clarifies this, what were we to do without the Abhidhamma! And Abhidhamma is not meant as an academical study, it helps us to verify citta now. Sloth, torpor, anger, a slight aversion, a slight attachment to seeing, to life, all these have to be realized. Do we not want to go on seeing and hearing, go on living? Ongoing implies trying to make sati last, but most important: seeing it as non-self, arising because of its own conditions. It can arise just as naturally as seeing now. ------------ Some points from your other post: --------------- H: Actually, the one thing that I wanted to know, the Abhidhamma distinction between knowing a rupa through 5-sense door and through the mind door is exactly what I'm not being told. ------ N: No distinction. Also in a sense door process the nimitta of an object is experienced. Insight that experience a sense object in a mind-door process: is it the same, Kh sujin was asked. Answer: exactly the same. ---------- Howard: My God, Nina - don't worry about fostering self by engaging in kusala Dhamma practice! We're ensconced in self right now, and intentional Dhamma practice is the way out. ---------------------------------------------- N: Pa~n~na, pa~n~naa, that is the solution. To realize when one clings to a self. It is not the matter of intentional practice but of understanding. > > N: Akusala citta is accompanied by akusala cetasikas, and kusala > citta is accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. It depends on conditions > what type of citta arises. Beyond control, it is all too fast! --------------------------------------------- Howard: So, I guess what you are saying is "I don't know" or "The Abhidhamma doesn't say". Okay. ------- N: You did not get my point. We cannot count or keep track of all the different cittas, we are not like the Buddha. Cittas roll on, no doer. But we have to really, really understand this, and be truthful and sincere. Realizing what we do not know yet. Nina. #72588 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 3:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner egberdina Hi Howard, On 25/05/07, upasaka@... wrote: > > ========================== > Hey! Good luck with the job!! :-) I hope it is really enjoyable and > rewarding in every way you wish. Thanks for your good wishes. If I start to enjoy the job too much, I can always use one of K Sujin's tricks and remind myself that it is just like a funeral :-)))))) Herman #72589 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 3:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner egberdina Hi Scott, On 25/05/07, Scott Duncan wrote: > > Dear Herman (to read when you're at work!): > Thanks :-))) > Scott: Here, I think, is shown the development of energy (in relation > to thiinamiddha, as an example) and this shows how there is viriya but > no one exercising or commanding it. It is an 'element' which arises > due to conditions and develops, in conjunction with other mental factors. Yes, of course there is not a self in charge of elements. Nonetheless, when all these different elements are arising and ceasing in aggregated form in a particular way, we are dealing with a person, not with individual elements. And it is to a compounded, aggregated person, and not to an element, that the following is meaningful "Brahmin, is there an occasion for making effort?" And to a right-thinking person it is answered in the affirmative. Herman #72590 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 3:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] DMT Corner 3 (Last Death is the Absolute Climax = Perfectly Pure Peace!) egberdina Hi Jon, On 22/05/07, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > > > Mmmm, I actually think it is a very close resemblance. I certainly > > don't remember ever having been been dreamlessly asleep, or dead. > > > > Let me see if I've understood: The fact that you don't remember (a) > ever having been been dreamlessly asleep, or (b) ever having been been > dead indicates to you that there's a close resemblance between the two > (sleep and death). > > Mmmm, I'll have to think about that ;-)). If you intend to think about it with an open mind, it could be quite a useful way to spend some time :-). > A lifespan is determined by the (objective) criteria of a birth at one > end and a death at the other. Span of memory (a subjective criterion) > does not come into it. > How very strange that my lifespan is determined by third parties. Perhaps it is this way with all beliefs about birth and death, they are all acquired from third parties, who share equally in not knowing anything about it? > If you're talking about conventional memory, there is quite a long > period between death at the end of one lifespan and the time in the new > lifespan when there can be said to be memory, including the whole of the > period of gestation. How do you reckon this 'memory-less' period? ;-)) Depending on which person or group you acquire your views from, "knowledge" of death and rebirth varies wildly. The only honest view out there, however, is an agnostic one. > Not sure why you keep bringing up the DMT thing. Curiosity, perhaps? ;-)) Certainly I am curious. I think it rather fascinating that a variety of mystical experiences that play a role in religious and philosophical practices around the world, can also be chemically induced. It leads me to think that there are mystical practices which act by altering brain chemistry. Herman #72591 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 4:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. egberdina Hi Larry, On 23/05/07, LBIDD@... wrote: > > > L: My thinking is that a phenomenon partakes of everything that > conditions it. A wood fire on a sunny day in Herman's back yard is all > of that. But more importantly, the whole point of any ritual is to > condition the arising of wholesome consciousness, imo. OK. > > H: "I'm going to be a frightful Scrooge here. There is no connection > between the arising of wholesomeness and the giving and receiving of > *MATERIAL* gifts. Rituals of material generosity seek to affirm the > dependence of mental states on material states. And that just isn't the > case. A person who says "I am happy because I gave this gift" or "I am > happy because I received this gift" is mistaken, the baseline for > happiness is in or around the jhanas (a non-discursive mind)." > > L: Isn't there any family ritual that you have performed that > conditioned the arising of a wholesome consciousness? > L: ... "But in the end it is only selfishness." > H: "Yes, agreed. But seeing others is also a form of self-view. Because > an other is just shorthand for an other self. Seeing monks or petas as > others is also a form of selfishness." > > L: I agree that seeing others as "others" is self view, or perhaps > conceit. But I don't think mere identity is really self view. Yes, very much agreed. It would not be possible for the Buddha to address Sariputta or Ananda by name without a firm conviction of identity. > > Above I said the purpose of ritual is to condition the arising of > wholesome consciousness, but as we all know any ritual also usually > conditions the arising of unwholesome consciousness. At the end of any > day we might look back and ask, when was there wholesome consciousness. > Most likely not very often. Even a little is very welcome. This is where the sticking point is, for me. Not in a daily life sense, because our life more often than not is the performing of one ritual after another. We do things in order to change how we feel (ie consciousness) all the time, and the things we do tend to be the things that we did in the past which accompanied us feeling good, and we avoid doing the things that accompanied us feeling bad. And this all works, not because the little rituals we perform are the actual causes of our feelings, but because at one time we associated the ritual with the feeling. Feeling good with the performing of a ritual is learned behaviour. But Buddhism, hopefully, is not a continuation of daily life. One of the values of Buddhism, to me, is that it breaks the apparent nexus between ritual and feeling. Through following the clear instructions of the Buddha one comes to see, as it actually is, that it is a non-discursive mind, a non-associating mind, that is a blissful mind. It is not the doing of any particular thing that feels good, it is actually the very opposite. It is the not-doing of anything that feels good. If there is any bliss arising in the midst of a ritual act, it is not the ritual act that gave rise to it, but a momentary abeyance of craving or aversion, which lie at the root of all behaviour. If this is not realised, then life continues to be lived as an endless cycle of ritualistic behaviours, without the faintest insight into the dynamics of the present moment. So, even the little wholesome consciousness that arises seemingly randomly in the midst of rites and rituals, which you welcome above, if it's origin and cessation is not understood, will not be a condition for any future abeyance of craving or aversion, but rather a strengthening of the incorrect association between the ritual and the wholesomeness. Here endeth the sermon :-) Herman #72592 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri May 25, 2007 5:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. lbidd2 Hi Herman, H: "So, even the little wholesome consciousness that arises seemingly randomly in the midst of rites and rituals, which you welcome above, if it's origin and cessation is not understood, will not be a condition for any future abeyance of craving or aversion, but rather a strengthening of the incorrect association between the ritual and the wholesomeness." L: I agree more or less but not everything has to be about nibbana. Maybe a kindness to someone is the best we can do right now. Larry #72593 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 8:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 153, 154 and Tiika. egberdina Hi Larry, On 26/05/07, LBIDD@... wrote: > > > L: I agree more or less but not everything has to be about nibbana. True, it wouldn't be the same without a nice chat about petas :-) > Maybe a kindness to someone is the best we can do right now. I always find you kind in that you post to me, and in what you post to me. Thank you. Herman #72594 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri May 25, 2007 10:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment... jonoabb Hi James (and Nina and All) buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Nina and Jon, > > Well, there isn't much I can do when I specifically quote from the > Vism. and you both offer all sorts of strange interpretations. But, > really, I can't blame you too much because the sentence in question is > constructed so oddly that it could easily be misread. I have read > many secondary sources which refer to the "dry-insight worker" as one > who hasn't achieved jhana. However, just today I looked it up in the > Vism. for myself for the first time and that isn't what it says at > all. It describes three types of individuals and states quite > clearly, when one reads and considers the entire sentence, that they > each achieve the first jhana only. If we look closely at that passage, it is describing 3 paths rather than 3 individuals. It says: 111. WHAT GOVERNS THE DIFFERENCE IN THE NOBLE PATH'S ENLIGHTENMENT FACTORS, ETC.... 112. To deal with these [three theories] in order: According to governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight (dry-insight) worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhana only. Not wanting to labour the point, but perhaps the useful summary you proposed would best be stated like this: PATHS OF THE FIRST JHANA ONLY: 1. Path arisen in bare-Insight worker (dry-insight) 2. Path arisen in jhana attainer (any level) for whom jhana is not used as the basis for insight 3. Path arisen in first-jhana attainer for whom that jhana is used as the basis for insight. (Notice also that it is referring to the actual moment of path consciousness ("...the path *arisen in* one who...).) > It then goes on to state that they > each achieve eight enlightenment factors, five jhana factors, etc. and > that their insight is accompanied by joy. This clearly means that > they have each achieved the first jhana. It can't mean anything else. > The five jhana factors referred to here are the cetasikas of: vitakka - initial application vicara - sustained application piiti - zest ekaggataa - one-pointedness somanassa - joy As you will appreciate, these factors are not exclusive to mundane jhana, but it is a question of their intensity. Note that there is no mention of jhana *citta*. Jhana citta is a citta of a different plane. Indeed, even where jhana is used as the basis for insight (Path #3), there is no jhana citta at the moment of (or the moments immediately preceding) path consciousness. > ... > Unless the term "bare-insight" or "dry-insight" worker is defined > differently somewhere else in the Vism., I will stick to my reading. > (When you read something, it is best to read with fresh eyes. Don't > be influenced by what you have read in the past). > Fair enough. But just keep in mind the possibility of a different reading (and I know you are considering these areas quite a lot at the moment). Not directly to the point, but worth considering further, is the difference between paths No. 2 and 3 as described in par. 112 of Vism. I'd be interested to know your reading of the suttas (including of course the descriptions of Right Concentration of the N8P in terms of the 4 jhanas) on this, namely whether: (a) path consciousness (enlightenment) can only be attained where jhana is used as the basis for insight (Path #3), or (b) path consciousness (enlightenment) can be attained without jhana being used as the basis for insight, as long as jhana of one level or another has been attained earlier during that lifetime (Path #2). How do you (and others) see this? Jon #72595 From: "Herman Hofman" Date: Fri May 25, 2007 11:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Last Death is the Absolute Climax = Perfectly Pure Peace! egberdina Hi Jon, On 20/05/07, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > As far as "gathering everything your teacher ever said, to anyone" is > concerned, I'd be interested to know what you see as being the "enormous > harm" involved. My sentence in full was : I think there would be enormous harm in gathering everything your teacher ever said, to anyone, and then gathering everything what his associates and their students over a long time have said about that, and then feeding your mind with that, day in, day out. Actually, this was exactly the task of the first Great > Council held shortly after the Buddha's parinibbaana. Who took it upon themselves to do this? And why? I suggest this was a seminal event in the ongoing appropriation of the Buddha's teachings by those unable or unwilling to implement them. The distance between dhutanga-bound ascetics, and patimokkha-bound monastics is unfathomable. Without that and > the efforts of subsequent generations in firstly memorising and later > writing down the teachings, there'd be no teachings at all extant today > and we wouldn't be having this conversation. I am fully aware that you take the line that the Buddha initiated the monastry-dwelling spin on what he taught. > As far as "feeding your mind with that, day in, day out" is concerned, > I'm not sure where you're coming from here. As I recall, the comment of > mine that you disagreed with a couple of posts ago was the idea that one > should reflect upon and consider what is contained in the teachings. > How does this relate to that issue? One usefully considers what one is taught, not what is in the teachings. One is usefully taught by one who has implemented what they were taught, not by one who has also read the books. > > > It would be precisely because one is feeding themselves with such an > > endless word salad that it would no longer be a possibility to have a > > minute of mental silence. Some people like to maintain that things are > > just the same now as they were in the days of the Buddha. After all, > > they say, it is just the same namas and rupas now as it was then. What > > rubbish! > > Quite apart from the implicit assumption that people in the time of the > Buddha couldn't read (not correct, as far as I know), Show me the stats on literacy rates at Savatthi around 500BC :-) the idea that any > different namas and rupas are involved for the person who reads, as > compared to the person who doesn't, is an interesting one. I would see > it differently: just seeing and thinking and memory performing its function. I don't think that the aim of the teachings is to fill your head up with things to remember. MN03 "Friends, of a Teacher abiding in seclusion, how do the disciples not train in that seclusion? Here, friends, of a Teacher abiding in seclusion, the disciples do not train in that seclusion. The things the Teacher said dispel, they would not dispel, they live in abundance and lethargy, missing the main aim, and they do not yoke themselves to seclusion. For this the elders have to be blamed for three things. Of a Teacher abiding in seclusion, the disciples do not train in that seclusion. This is the first blame that comes on the elders. The things that the Teacher said dispel, they would not dispel. This is the second blame that comes on the elders. Living in abundance and lethargy, they miss the main aim and do not yoke themselves to seclusion. This is the third blame that comes on the elders. The elders have to be blamed for these three things. The middling bhikkhus, too have to be blamad for these three things. The novice bhikkhus too have to be blamed for these three things. Friends, it is in this manner, that of a Teacher abiding in seclusion, the disciples do not train in that seclusion." Show me a sutta that says "remember the Tipitaka", and I'll show you a fraud. > > For one, the Buddha taught by word of mouth, to people who couldn't > > read. In order to learn to read you have to spend years and years at > > school. That is years and years of effort to wire your brain to > > recognise meaning in squigles. That is years and years of teaching > > yourself to see what isn't there. As opposed to years and years of > > learning by the Buddha's method to see what is there, ie nothing that > > lasts or is worth clinging to. > > You seem to be saying that the person who has learnt to read is somehow > less capable of understanding the teachings and/or developing the path > than the person who has not. I am misreading you surely!?! No, not at all. Somewhere in the bowels of the AN: 5:26 "Bhikkhus, it is not possible to abide in the first higher state of mind without dispelling these five things. What five? The selfishness for dwellings, families, gains, beauty and mental things. Bhikkhus, it is not possible to abide in the first higher state of mind without dispelling these five things." Are you going to tell me that learning to read plays a role in turning away from whatever has ever been devoured by the eye and constructed by the mind? > > Also, how does your description of the process of learning to read > differ from, say, learning to understand and speak a second language, > save that a different sense-door (ear-door vs. eye-door) is involved? > Would you say that a bi-lingual person was disadvantaged in the same way > as a person who has learnt to read? Children learn language without any effort or intention to do so. In bi-lingual homes children learn two languages without any effort or intention to do so. Learning to read takes much concentrated effort and intention. Much greed is required to become a succesful reader. Imagine the greed that is required to read a difficult book like the Abhidhamma, let alone write it. Why go through this process if the intention is turn away from sensuality? I put it to you that the tradition that has given you the commentaries, sub commentaries and sub-sub-commentaries demonstrates it's lack of inclination towards turning away and cessation by those very works. On the other hand, the lack of such works by dhutanga-bound ascetics speaks of their understanding of and devotion to what they have been taught. Herman #72596 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat May 26, 2007 12:09 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. kenhowardau Hi TG, ------------ TG: > My point though actually is ... that the principles of phenomena: -- impermanence, affliction, no-self, are applicable both in conceptual deduction and contemplation, as well as by monitoring direct experiences with mindfulness. ------------- I can agree with the first part. However, it is very hard to have a discussion with you when you deny the existence of paramattha dhammas. When you say 'monitoring direct experience with mindfulness' you don't mean direct right understanding of paramattha dhammas. You are referring to a conventional (ritualistic) form of satipatthana. I suppose your practice is to remind yourself "This noise I am hearing is anicca dukkha and anatta. This coffee cup I am holding is anicca dukkha and anatta" and that sort of thing. That is not satipatthana and it does not lead to satipatthana. ------------------------ TG: > Both have power and both are important. And that the Buddha was interested in leading minds to "turn away" from phenomena, not to try and decipher ultimate realities. ------------------------- "Turn away?" Renunciation of the five khandhas is a result of right understanding of the five khandhas (conditioned dhammas). But right understanding (and renunciation) can only take place by turning towards the khandhas - seeing them for what they really are - anicca, dukkha and anatta. --------------------------- TG: > > > Much of it (most of it) is 'reflective contemplation' and 'inferential deduction' about the nature of things that are not being experienced. For example, how can past, future, external, or far -- material forms, feelings, perceptions, formations or consciousness have anything to do with direct experience? KH: >> As I said. BTW, I have to wonder why you don't know this. . TG: > Why would you assume I don't know this? It is in fact central to my point. ---------------------------- Another breakdown in communication! :-) You asked. "How can past, future, external, or far material forms (etc) have anything to do with direct experience?" I took that to be a question. Now, I think you are saying it was rhetorical. Anyway, I answered by referring you to my previous answer where I had said 'when panna directly knows a conditioned dhamma, it can know it is the reality described by the Buddha as "exactly the same as all past and future conditioned dhammas - anicca, dukkha and anatta.: The same applies to external and far conditioned dhammas: when panna directly knows a conditioned dhamma it knows it is the reality described by the Buddha as exactly the same as all external and far conditioned dhammas - anicca, dukkha and anatta. I think that answers your question as to how it has "anything to do with direct experience." Then I had a shot at you for not knowing this because it has been discussed here several times. I don't know if this is clearing up our communication breakdown at all. Now I have to find out what you mean by, "It is in fact central to my point." -------------------------------------- <. . .> KH: >> I wonder why you haven't noticed. Could it be because you have been too busy disputing the ancient texts and putting forth your own original ideas? TG: > <. . .> It is the "Abhidhammika's" ideas that I consider "original ideas." The "ultimate realities" etc. don't jibe with the Suttas. When the Buddha discusses how to "know things as they really are," it is not merely directly knowing paramattha dhammas (if that even counts I'm doubtful), but it is a much broader knowledge and vision of phenomena. ------------------- This is what made me a little bit tetchy in my previous post. We have seen people shouting, "CAN'T YOU READ?" and we have seen them making the silly statement, "You might believe that but I prefer to believe what the Buddha taught!" That puerile level of debate can be infuriating. Sorry if I took my infuriation out on you. :-) ----------------------------- <. . .> TG: > That's rudely said and I'm not sure who the "tag team" is. ----------------------------- Sorry again. Perhaps you haven't been reading all the posts recently, but there have been at least two, possibly three, jokes about tag- team wrestling. I was just continuing the joke. ------------------- TG: > Let the "Theras" be ... unless its Sariputta, Maha Moggallana, or the like. I'll stick to the Four Great Nikayas. That's where I don't want to be in conflict. Conflict with some commentaries? I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. ------------------- But no one here claims to disagree with Sariputta or with the Nikayas or with the Buddha etc. Some of us are saying the Commentaries agree with Sariputta and the Nikayas and the Buddha etc. So we don't see any conflict in agreeing with the Commentaries. Please don't make the silly argument that we are choosing to go against the Buddha's teaching. The question is, "What is the Buddha's teaching?" You say you can answer that question better than the Commentaries can, and maybe you are right, but I doubt it. ------------------------ <.. .> TG: > Just deal with the Sutta and the point. In your entire post, you have failed to do so. (Well, I'll give you credit for side-swiping the issue.) This I find to be the rule and not the exception when a pertinent quote from the Suttas is laid out that does not square with the "knowing ultimate realities/paramattha dhammas" approach. The issue at hand is ignored or gets dropped. ------------------------ We see things differently. The way I see it, every objection to the 'paramattha' version of the Dhamma has been dealt with comprehensively. If other people can't grasp the point and keep asking the same questions (e.g., "When are you going to stop understanding and start practising?") that is their fault, not mine. -------------- TG: > Now, you have actually agreed with my position in your initial responses and yet appear unaware of it. And you don't seem to realize that your agreement then admits to a relevant conceptual aspect to insight development. You have put conceptual analysis on a more or less even plane as that of direct experience. I agree. So we agree, and nothing to be upset about. :-) -------------- It is a good start. The Dhamma as I understand it says that panna can know right conceptual analysis. After knowing right conceptual analysis many, many times panna will grow stronger, and it will go on to know the characterisitcs of namas and rupas directly - not just theoretically. If that is your understanding of the Dhamma, welcome aboard! Ken H #72597 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat May 26, 2007 12:16 am Subject: Re: "Dry Insight" (Re: [dsg] Q. re: Perfections no 28. dry insight.) nilovg Hi Howard, my translation has: is in the presence of nibbaana. I think that this refers to lokuttara citta that experiences nibbaana and is accompanied by right view, right concentration and the other factors which are then lokuttara. There is the pair: serenity and insight. Concentration has the strength at least equal to that accompanying the jhanacitta of the first stage . This also goes for dry insight workers. Calm with the lokuttaracitta is higher then calm with mundane jhana since lokuttara pa~n~naa eradicates defielments and jhanacitta subdues defilements only temporarily. Nina. Op 21-mei-2007, om 14:11 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > And then, finally, Nina, I leave you with the > following from the Dhammapada, which I think is rather clear: > ______________________________ > 372. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks > insight, and no > insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He in whom are > found both > meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana. #72598 From: "colette" Date: Sat May 26, 2007 1:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Insight is "Vision," Not Merely Experience. ksheri3 Hi Ken and TG, Great reply, I can't wait to use this as a study tool to investigate things, concepts, perceptions, etc. What caught my eye was the second response. So, since the computer I'm using has an odd command line and I can't find the "cut, copy, paste" functions then we'll just have to travel down to your response. Shall we take that leap of Faith (Hi Lucy Stafford, ;).) off we go: -------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi TG, > > ------------ > TG: > My point though actually is ... that the principles of > phenomena: -- impermanence, affliction, no-self, are applicable both > in conceptual deduction and contemplation, as well as by monitoring > direct experiences with mindfulness. > ------------- > > I can agree with the first part. However, it is very hard to have a > discussion with you when you deny the existence of paramattha > dhammas. When you say 'monitoring direct experience with mindfulness' > you don't mean direct right understanding of paramattha dhammas. You > are referring to a conventional (ritualistic) form of satipatthana. > I suppose your practice is to remind yourself "This noise I am > hearing is anicca dukkha and anatta. This coffee cup I am holding is > anicca dukkha and anatta" and that sort of thing. That is not > satipatthana and it does not lead to satipatthana. Here we are: TG's statement followed by your reply. I think any person with some experience in studying the doctrines can help you out, TG, since you really have a misinterpretation of the concept of "Turning Away". > > ------------------------ > TG: > Both have power and both are important. And that the Buddha was > interested in leading minds to "turn away" from phenomena, not to try > and decipher ultimate realities. > ------------------------- > > "Turn away?" Renunciation of the five khandhas is a result of right > understanding of the five khandhas (conditioned dhammas). But right > understanding (and renunciation) can only take place by turning > towards the khandhas - seeing them for what they really are - anicca, > dukkha and anatta. ************************** colette: I totally agree with Ken's response since there's absolutely no knowledge of why a person would even consider "turning away" from things if those things were not actually put to the test of their svabhava. This is my biggest gripe with the U.S.A.'s East coast psychology of people, in people, and for people: they take things strictly as written in books, learned through countless hours of memorization of the book's examples, given absolute credit for passing simple tests that all students callude upon, in, while being tested, which makes the results of the test nothing more than a "group consensous", which is EXACTLY THE SAME as a fraternity or sorrority hazing experience. <....> In life it is far more different, especially when applying the Buddha's Pravda, sorry, Truth. The problems that have occured through the applications of the doctrines can be seen in the many sects of the dharma or dhamma. I have shosen the Yogacara and the Vajrayana as my vehichles currently since I have long ago embraced the reality that these trinkets and baubles that society programs it's children to slave away for, are worthless delusions, worthless hallucinations, etc. since I look at the Ultimate Truths. I have my own predjudices and biases since I've had a couple of Near Death Experiences (NDE) which I would not wish upon my worst enemy let alone a friend or even a stranger. My interpretation of the meaning of turning away as given by the Buddha is that the Buddha had, through ENLIGHTENMENT, the consciousness that there is a greater truth than the Relative Truth that we are forced to deal with in our daily lives. this cooresponds EXACTLY to the first NDE experience I had and was in a coma for five days, yet I lost an entire month of my life since I can recall the night before the day of the accident and the day I woke up a month later. I feel the Buddha found that when the body expires there certainly is a continuation but this continuation for myself was of MIND-ONLY. There was no physical presence of anything since anything that my mind could imagine and conceive was the reality. this being the case, THEN, one would have to have a vast knowledge of past experience to bring to the continuation of existance, the Bardo phase of existance between the reality we now have and our reincarnation. Now the Buddha was already ENLIGHTENED when he left his seat beneath the Bodhi tree THEREFOR, something had to propell him to relinguish is samadhi, his equilibrium and peace while sitting. His compassion for his suffering sisters & bros. is what I feel CAUSED him to move. This brings up our friend the Bodhisattva but I don't have the time to get into that run-around so lets stick with Ken's reply. We can't honestly say that, as ken states, the Five Skandas have to be embraced before they can be turned away from since there have been countless monks and bodhisattvas that have become ENLIGHTENED by means of monastic life. Achieving Nirvana is such an EXPERIENCE, I can't speak for the monks that have achieved this state through their study and committment to the idealism of the monestary they've dedicated themselves to but for myself I have found that the things I embraced have all failed me and abandonded me since April 10 or 11, 1978. I have always been left destitute and dangling in the breeze as a flag or corpse, see Vlad The Impailor or any Roman crucifiction, and the only satisfaction I've found is through the concentration of what I've experienced outside this physical realm and the interaction that that Ultimate Truth has to this Relative Truth. So, for the time being I'm embracing the Varjayana and it's practices while still gathering bits and pieces of the Yogacara. BTW, a conditioned dharma can be seen as a freshly planted field that a farmer is hoping to reap food from. Right Understanding, if I may, Right View, has many parts to it's fruition and exposition. One doesn't simply need to renunce all rupa as the means toward nirvana, there should be something inside, since I haven't had the time to study this doctrine other than three years I hesitate to say "Buddha Nature" but I am confident in saying that the 3 Kayas are a part of this path to enlightenment. With that said then I might as well give my Zen sisters & bros. credit here for their work in the "Mind-Body-Spirit" field of manifestation. It all gets to manifesting a single svabhava, entity, "Being". Martial Arts experts are very adept of this practice but that stems from the reliance and acceptance on Meditations. Thanks, I hope I didn't get too long winded. toodles, colette <...> #72599 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat May 26, 2007 2:35 am Subject: Re: Unintelligent Brother and the Cloth christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello Chris, > > I remember the story about the AK 47's :-) > > wondering if you still live at Logan as I sent a couple of copies > of Nina's 'Perfections' to that address? If you havent received > them, write me off-list and I can forward some more copiies. > > Hope you are well. > Azita > p.s. I'm gonna be a grandma!!! > Hello Azita, Lovely to hear from you. YES!! Thank-you so much. I received the books a couple of days ago ~ Reg was having trouble with his email, but I think he knows that one copy is for him. I'm seeing the Cooran Mob next weekend ~ we're all meeting somewhere near the Glasshouse Mountains for a Study day on articles about the Buddha's Birth, Enlightenment and Parinibbana (plus lunch :-)) . I'll give it to him then ~ providing I don't get lost finding the park/paddock they've chosen. A grandmother? Never! Child-bride were you? :-)) Hope everyone is well. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time---