#73200 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [2] upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/10/07 6:03:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, (and James, at end), > shall we replace 'knowing' by 'understanding', pajanati, seeing by > pa~n~naa? > ====================== No, I don't think so. We don't know with any certainty what we see with wisdom. I think we should replace it by such locution as "This is my conviction" or "This is my belief" or "I am confident that" or "The Buddha taught that". With metta, Howard #73201 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [2] nilovg Hi Howard, Understanding through direct experience of the truth gives the greates certainty. Nina. Op 10-jun-2007, om 16:33 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > We don't know with any certainty what we see > with wisdom. I think we should replace it by such locution as "This > is my > conviction" or "This is my belief" or "I am confident that" or "The > Buddha taught > that". #73202 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:21 am Subject: It might be true or it might not.. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 6/9/07 11:39:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... > writes: > > > Dear Howard, > > What are uncontestable facts for you? How do you know you aren't > > actually a lump of matter kept in testube controlled by scientist > > conducting an experiment- who make little prods to evoke reactions? > > Or maybe a powerful demon is in control of your mind and you are > > completely unaware of him. > > How do you know the earth goes around the sun, yet don't you believe > > that? Do you live your life as if the earth will keep going around > > the sun, and gravity will keep working. But you would say "NO, > > tommorwo gravity may reverse and the earth stop revloving". Me I am > > more sure of rebirth, that it wil happen - not so sure about the > > earth, that it won't explode this very day. > > > > Yet for some reason, all my speech and actions confirms that I > > believe gravity will keep working. Am I liar? > > Robert > > > ========================= > Robert, everything is a matter of degree, of course. What is fact and > known to be so is what I'm discussing. And you are quite correct. What we > think we know may well not be what we know, of course. > > So, indeed, care must even be taken in asserting knowing even when > there has been what seems to be direct experience. How much more care, then, > should be taken in asserting unexperienced things as fact? What you are saying, > Robert, merely supports my point. >++++++ Dear Howard Do you preface your statements like so: "assuming I am not under control of a demon, yes I ate cereal today". Did your teachers at school insist that the earth went around the sun or did you insist that they say "science thinks so, but it might be wrong that the earth goes around the sun?". Did you say "how do you know the moon isn't made of cheese" BTW it could be right? If someone has learned to study the present moment what they see is that vipaka follows javana follows vipaka, it happens millions of times, they could never think that it will stop without an uprooting of conditions. And this is even before deep insight, imagine the certainty of one who has seen the moments deeply- they must be far more certain about this than that the sun will rise every day. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.1-6.vaji.html >>>Sariputta's Lion's Roar 11 16. Then the Venerable Sariputta went to the Blessed One, respectfully greeted him, sat down at one side, and spoke thus to him: "This faith, Lord, I have in the Blessed One, that there has not been, there will not be, nor is there now, another recluse or brahman more exalted in Enlightenment than the Blessed One." "Lofty indeed is this speech of yours, Sariputta, and lordly! A bold utterance, a veritable sounding of the lion's roar! But how is this, Sariputta? Those Arahants, Fully Enlightened Ones of the past — do you have direct personal knowledge of all those Blessed Ones, as to their virtue, their meditation, 12 their wisdom, their abiding, and their emancipation?" "Not so, Lord." "Then how is this, Sariputta? Those Arahants, Fully Enlightened Ones of the future — do you have direct personal knowledge of all those Blessed Ones, as to their virtue, their meditation, their wisdom, their abiding, and their emancipation?" "Not so, Lord." "Then how is this, Sariputta? Of me, who am at present the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One, do you have direct personal knowledge as to my virtue, my meditation, my wisdom, my abiding, and my emancipation?" "Not so, Lord." "Then it is clear, Sariputta, that you have no such direct personal knowledge of the Arahats, the Fully Enlightened Ones of the past, the future, and the present. How then dare you set forth a speech so lofty and lordly, an utterance so bold, a veritable sounding of the lion's roar"?>>> This LION'S ROAR of Sariputta, do you think he should better have said "I don't know, but I suspect that.." or "It is probably true, but it also might not be true that .."? Robert #73203 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [2] upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/10/07 10:50:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Understanding through direct experience of the truth gives the > greates certainty. > Nina. > ====================== Of course it does, Nina. However, by what means do we know at such time that it IS direct experience of the truth? ;-) I do believe that direct experience of the truth is possible, and that there will no doubt at that time. Unfortunately, there is also frequently no doubt when doubt is justified, because it really isn't the truth that is witnessed, and the lack of doubt is misplaced! In any case, all of us here are, for the most part, so far from direct experience of the truth, that it would serve us well to get used to saying "I believe" or "It seems to me"! :-) With metta, Howard #73204 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] It might be true or it might not.. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - > >++++++ > Dear Howard > Do you preface your statements like so: "assuming I am not under > control of a demon, yes I ate cereal today". ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, but only on Wednesdays that are full-moon days. ;-)) ------------------------------------------------ Did your teachers at > > school insist that the earth went around the sun or did you insist > that they say "science thinks so, but it might be wrong that the > earth goes around the sun?". ----------------------------------------------- Howard: C'mon, Robert. My point is to generally avoid stating unknown claims as known fact. I'm going by what the Buddha said about safeguarding truth. I believe he was right about that. Don't you? ---------------------------------------------- > > > This LION'S ROAR of Sariputta, do you think he should better have > said "I don't know, but I suspect that.." or "It is probably true, > but it also might not be true that .."? ----------------------------------------- Howard: Are we Sariputta? ---------------------------------------- > > Robert > > ================== With metta, Howard #73205 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:03 pm Subject: Imperfections of Insight, to Mike. nilovg Dear Mike, ------- M: Knowledge of Arising and Passing Away: The Ten Corruptions of Insight [27] When the meditator, in the exercise of noticing, is able to keep exclusively to the present body-and-mind process, without looking back to past processes or ahead to future ones, then, as a result of insight, (the mental vision of) a //brilliant light// will appear to him. To one it will appear like the light of a lamp, to others like a flash of lightning, or like the radiance of the moon or the sun, and so on. With one it may last for just one moment, with others it may last longer. Is this light, according to the texts, experienced visually or mentally or both? ------- N: See quote below. Attachment to such phenomena is an impediment for further progress. One gets stuck in the development. But Pa~n`naa can see through all of this and then the imperfections can be overcome. -------- M: And, is the stage of tender insight subject to the corruptions of insight? --------- N: For answering your questions, Let me quote from Survey, p 342, 343: ----------------- Nina. #73206 From: connie Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:39 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (58) nichiconn dear friends, part 3 7. Sattakanipaato 1. Uttaraatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa {On verse 177. "Citta.m upa.t.thapetvaana, ekagga.m susamaahita.m; paccavekkhatha sa"nkhaare, parato no ca attato. 177. "Summoning up the mind, intent and well concentrated, consider the formations as other and not as self."} cy txt: Tattha citta.m upa.t.thapetvaanaati bhaavanaacitta.m kamma.t.thaane upa.t.thapetvaa. Katha.m? Ekagga.m susamaahita.m paccavekkhathaati pa.tipatti.m avekkhatha, sa"nkhaare aniccaatipi, dukkhaatipi, anattaatipi lakkha.nattaya.m vipassathaati attho. Ida~nca ovaadakaale attano a~n~nesa~nca bhikkhuniina.m theriyaadiina.m ovaadassa anuvaadavasena vutta.m. Pruitt: 177. There, summoning up (upa.t.thapetvaana) the mind (citta.m) means: summoning up (upa.t.thapetvaa) development of the mind (bhaavanaa-citta.m) through the subject of meditation. How? [Through being] intent and well concentrated.* Consider (paccavekkhatha) means: observe the practice; develop insight into the three characteristics, namely that the formations are impermanent, misery and no-self. And this was said at the time of instruction as an admonition for her and other bhikkhunis and theriis, etc. *Compare the remarks on "summoning up mindfulness" in the commentary below on v. 182 (p. 209) == {on verses: 178. "Tassaaha.m vacana.m sutvaa, pa.taacaaraanusaasani.m; paade pakkhaalayitvaana, ekamante upaavisi.m. 179. "Rattiyaa purime yaame, pubbajaatimanussari.m; rattiyaa majjhime yaame, dibbacakkhu.m visodhayi.m. 178. Having heard her utterance, the advice of Pa.taacaara, having washed my feet, I sat down on one side. 179. In the first watch of the night, I purified the divine eye.} cy txt: Pa.taacaaraanusaasaninti pa.taacaaraaya theriyaa anusi.t.thi.m. "Pa.taacaaraaya saasanan"tipi vaa paa.tho. Pruitt: 178. The advice of Pa.taacaaraa (Pa.taacaaraa-'nusaasani.m) means: the instruction of Therii Pa.taacaaraa. An alternative reading is: "the teaching of Pa.taacaaraa (Pa.taacaaraaya saasanan)." {c: following p.207, n4 --> p.156: cy on v119, Patacara's 30 <<... heard the word of instruction (saasana-bhuuta.m) in the sense of the teachings as opposed to her (tassaa), Therii Pa.taacaraa's (Pa.taacaaraaya theriyaa), defilements (kilesa-pa.tisattu-saasana.t.thena). >> v120: << In the first watch of the night they recollected >> etc., thru the last. "For v.120, see Th-a II, pp. 264f. ad v 627." {:( I can't read!} also: p.207, n1: "For. v 178 and v 179ab, see Th-a II, p. 264f. ad v. 627." ===tbc, connie. #73207 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:41 pm Subject: Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Thanks for sharing the letter by B. Bodhi. He writes: "One can find ways to affirm such attainments as rational possibilities, as you have done, but to do so one has to apply to the texts certain presuppositions and modes of interpretation that cannot be derived from the suttas themselves. I wouldn't reject them, and in fact I respect the commentarial recognition of a dry-visioned arahant." I'm sorry, but this is hypocritical hogwash! It is hypocritical to say that you can't find evidence for the commentaries in the suttas and so you won't include them in your analysis, and yet you don't reject the commentaries and still "respect them". Is B. Bodhi trying to run for President, or what? ;-)) I don't respect his position at all. I respect the position of you and Nina (et. all) who say that you accept all of the ancient texts on principle, all three baskets, because you are clear about your position. And I respect the position of Nanavira because he just flat out rejected the Abhidhamma and the commentaries, and he was also clear on his position. But B. Bodhi isn't being clear on his position- he is eel-wriggling. That, I'm afraid, is contrary to the Dhamma. Monk or not, he should take a clear stand. As far as I can tell, from my research, I accept the possibility of a sukkhavipassana because he/she has achieved jhana. As far as I'm concerned, and no one has shown me otherwise, "access concentration" still falls within the first jhana. During access concentration all five hindrances are completely suppressed and the five jhana factors arise. Jhana cittas are present during access concentration- that is jhana! During access concentration the jhana cittas aren't strong, so they wobble back and forth from jhana to regular cittas (citta-vithi) "just as when a young child is lifted up and stood on its feet, it repeatedly falls down on the ground" (Vism. IV, 33). I would recommend that "access concentration" be re-termed "BABY JHANA"! ;-)) Metta, James ps. Feel free to forward this post to B. Bodhi and see if he has a response. I would be interested to know his response. #73208 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James (and Sukin), > The intensity of concentration accompanying lokuttara citta has > nibbaana as object, and sure, it could not be less than concentration > in mundane jhana. It can be called lokuttara jhana. Further, I try to > keep away from too many debates. I am not trying to debate you; I am just looking for information. You write that it "can" be called lokuttara citta, is it called that, officially? If this concentration is of the intensity of mundane jhana, which jhana does it correspond to: first, second, third, fourth, or immaterial jhanas? Is lokuttara citta supposed to occur at stream-entry also? Thanks. Metta, James #73209 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] It might be true or it might not.. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ++++++++ Dear Howard I am not fully satisfied. In many posts you have said that you KNOW that you had second to fifth jhana, while doing Transcendental Meditation. Your account is different from classic Theravada: why "I might have.." is missing in your case, whereas a crucial element of Dhamma - rebirth - should be one that we doubt? BTW I know you like Zen, have you read any Brad Warner, I saw an article, loooked rather uniformed, but I see he has written a couple of books and is getting popular? ++++ WARNER: >>>>>>>Sometimes I'm asked if bio-feedback might be a good way to ascertain if one is making proper progress in Zen practice. >>The basic idea behind this kind of thinking goes like this. First, we assume that there is a better state than the one we have now. Higher states are just a fantasy. You may be able to create a pretty fantasy and devise ways of attaining it. But what you have attained is only the fulfillment of your fantasy. It is never the reality of here and now. >>What is really needed is not the ability to induce temporary lapses into so-called "higher states," but the ability to understand thoroughly and exactly what this state we have right here and right now truly is (and is not). This is the key to everything. When anger, hatred or greed arises and one understands them fully for what they are, they have no power. You will never understand the truth of these things by running away from them into fantasies of "higher consciousness." They will always, always, always come right back and bite you on the ass as soon as your vacation in the astral plane is over. The reason is simple. It was greed for spiritual power, anger at your lack of progress and hatred for those less "spiritual" than you that got you to your so-called "higher state" in the first place. There are serious problems in the world right now! Stop farting around with toys and games! Brad Warner>>>>>>>>> ++++ Robert #73210 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > > > Hi James (and Sukin), > > The intensity of concentration accompanying lokuttara citta has > > nibbaana as object, and sure, it could not be less than concentration > > in mundane jhana. It can be called lokuttara jhana. Further, I try to > > keep away from too many debates. > > I am not trying to debate you; I am just looking for information. You > write that it "can" be called lokuttara citta, is it called that, > officially? If this concentration is of the intensity of mundane > jhana, which jhana does it correspond to: first, second, third, > fourth, or immaterial jhanas? Is lokuttara citta supposed to occur at > stream-entry also? Thanks. > Dear James Yes it occurs at the momnet of stream entry, in a flash. In the Atthasalini -I use The expositor PTS (translator : maung tin). P58. Triplets in the Matika "'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a wall." "..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth" It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e akusala AND kusala. It notes that the way leading to dispersion is the Ariyan path (eightfactored path). There is then several chapters (total of 140 pages) that gives much details about the various types of kusala (wholesome consciousness). The last two chapters in this section explain all the different types of "MUNDANE" Jhanas. The start of the next chapter is interesting: this is where it discusses the eight-fold path. The Discourse on LOKUTTARA (transcendental). "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momentary flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral (kusala) consciousness of the three planes[includes kusala such as giving as well as all levels of "mundane" jhana]" Robert #73211 From: connie Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:42 pm Subject: Re: daana corner / 'cheating dhammas' nichiconn > > [More in U.P. under 'Cheating dhammas', if anyone is interested.] Dear Sarah here is another link http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=88&hl=cheating Robert Dear Robert, Sarah, All another link: dhammastudy.com/vancaka.html connie #73212 From: connie Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:42 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (35) nichiconn Thank you, Sir, Sarah, S: I don't know. it does sound a bit mundane compared to pubbayoga, pubbacariyaa etc, but you could be right. Maybe Nina or Ven D. might know. Ven D.: Pubbakicca refers to the preparatory tasks identified in Path of Purification Ch. III 16, namely, the cutting off of impediments and development of skill in absorption. === PPf III 16: Herein, we shall comment below upon the suitable and unsuitable (Ch. IV, 35f.), the preparatory tasks consisting in the severing of impediments (Ch. IV, 20), etc., and skill in absorption (Ch. IV, 42). When a man cultivates what is unsuitable, his progress is difficult and his direct-knowledge sluggish. PPf IV, 20: Then he should sever the lesser impediments (Ch. III, 28): one living in such a favourable monastery should sever any minor impediments that he may still have, that is to say, long head hair, nails, and body hair, should be cut, mending and patching of old robes should be done or those that are soiled should be dyed. If there is a stain on the bowl, the bowl should be baked. The bed, chair, etc., should be cleaned up. These are the details for the clause 'Then he should sever the lesser impediments.' PPf III, 28: But mundane concentration should be developed by one who has taken his stand on virtue that is quite purified in the way already stated. He should sever any of the ten impediments that he may have. He should then approach the Good friend, the giver of a meditation subject, and he should apprehend from among the forty meditation subjects one that suits his own temperament. After that he should avoid a monastery unfavourable to the development of concentration and go to live in one that is favourable. Then he should sever the lesser impediments and not overlook any of the directions for development. This is in brief. PPf IV, 42: However, if this does not happen while he is practising in this way, then he should have recourse to the ten kinds of skil in absorption. Here is the method. Skill in absorption needs [to be dealt with in] ten aspects: (1) making the basis clean, (2) maintaining balanced faculties, (3) skill in the sign, (4) he exerts the mind on an occasion when it should be exerted, (5) he restrains the mind on an occasion when it should be restrained, (6) he encourages the mind on an occasion when it should be encouraged, (7) he looks on at the mind with equanimity when it should be looked on at with equanimity, (8) avoidance of unconcentrated persons, (9) cultivation of concentrated persons, (10) resoluteness upon that (concentration). === c. #73213 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:56 pm Subject: Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment buddhatrue Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > "He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the > ecstatic jhana of one momentary flash of consciousness. because it > goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana > called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading > to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral > (kusala) consciousness of the three planes[includes kusala such as > giving as well as all levels of "mundane" jhana]" > Robert > Thanks Robert for this information. According to this source, this supramundane jhana corresponds in intensity to which mundane jhana: first, second, third, fourth, or the immaterial jhanas. After all, it must correspond to one of these or it cannot truly be called "jhana". Metta, James #73214 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:23 pm Subject: Seeing own past Lives & Mistakes! bhikkhu5 Friends: Seeing own past Lives & all their Mistakes! Once when the Venerable Anuruddha was dwelling at Savatthi in Jeta's Grove , in AnÄ?thapindika 's Park, a number of Bhikkhus went to the Venerable Anuruddha & exchanged polite greetings with him. Then they sat down & asked the Ven. Anuruddha : Venerable Sir: What has the Venerable Anuruddha developed & cultivated so that he has attained to his famous greatness of direct knowledge? It is, friends, because I have developed and cultivated these four Foundations of Awareness that I have won great direct knowledge. What four? Here, friends, I dwell constantly contemplating upon: The Body as a formed group, neither as me, lasting nor pleasure! The Feelings as passing sensations, neither as mine, nor pleasure! The Mind as temporary mentalities, neither as I, nor as core soul! All Phenomena as mental states neither as substance nor any real! while eager, clearly comprehending, & fully aware , thereby removing all desire & frustration rooted in this world! It is, friends, because I have developed & cultivated these Four Foundations of Awareness that I have become empowered with all these suprahuman forces: I remember many of my prior lives, one rebirth, two lives, three lives, four lives, five lives, ten past lives, twenty lives, thirty lives, 40 lives, 50 lives, a 100 past lives, one thousand prior lives, several hundred thousand lives, many aeons (universal cycles) of world-contraction and expansion (big bangs): There such was my name, species, family, such my appearance, such was my food, such my experience of any pleasure and pain, such was the story of my life; passing away from there, I was reborn elsewhere. There such was my name, variety, family, such my appearance, such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such was my life length; passing away from there, I was reborn here. Thus I recollect manifold various past lives and abodes in all their particular modes & all their spectacular details... Source (edited extract): The Grouped Sayings of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya. [V:305] section 52: Anuruddha. Thread 22: The Past Lives. Comments: There one sees all the times one has been a killer, a thief, a crook, a hero, an ordinary being, and all the possible evil things one has done not one time, but billions of billions of times in this looong Samsara - The dreadful round of rebirths. A truly humongous sight! Seeing own past Lives and all their Mistakes! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <......> #73215 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] sarahprocter... HiJames, --- buddhatrue wrote: > As far as the last citta, KS was right to say that we don't know the > state of Alan's last citta- but that doesn't mean that it isn't > important. I am guessing that Alan died from an accident? .... S: Yes, a fatal car accident. ... >So, there > wouldn't have been time to prepare the mind for death. In that case, > it would have to be the kamma which would determine the next rebirth. .... S: It's always kamma which determines rebirth. .... > However, if Alan knew that death was approaching, he could have > turned his mind to Dhamma to ensure a good rebirth. The Canon is full > of stories of those on their death beds and how the Buddha and various > other monks made a special effort to be there- to give one final > teaching on the Dhamma. .... S: Even if we're listening to/reflecting on dhamma on our death-beds, there is never ever guarantee. It depends on the last javana cittas conditioned by past kamma. There can be attachment or uneasiness or fear anytime - just like now, as we reflect on dhamma. Even the Buddha could not guarantee the last cittas of anyone by his presence or teaching. .... >The last citta is important and I hope that > KS isn't saying that it isn't, because that would be contrary to the > Dhamma. ... S: (The very, very last citta of life, cuti citta (death consciousness), is the same kind of citta as the birth consciousness and bhavanga cittas of that same life, i.e vipaka citta. It is the preceding last javana cittas which are significant.) And no, KS isn't saying they are not important, but that they can never be controlled by anyone. As I say, they are conditioned by past kamma. ... > Anyway, I will read with keen interest what you have to post next > regarding this incident. I think it is very important to consider and > reflect on death so as not to be unprepared when the inevitable arrives. .... S: I appreciate your comments and feedback, James. I like the way you consider these topics deeply. For me, it helps a lot to consider death as being just another citta (or series of cittas) just like now. No one can control or change seeing now or hearing now. In the same way, no one can 'make' the last cittas of life be a certain way. This doesn't mean we don't give whatever support we can to those who are dying with metta and compassion. Metta, Sarah ========== #73216 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Could you please help? sarahprocter... f/w message from Hasituppada to my comments (below) on an extract from his book (nearing completion). **************************** Dear Sarah, Please pardon me for the long delay in replying to your message. I am presently without internet access from home. I agree with your observations and comments. I am glad you took the time to look into it so carefully explain to me the defects. I have modified the paragraph in the light of your observations as follows: " But the mental faculty is different, as it takes as objects the experiences of the rest of the sense faculties. For instance, if you were to close your eyes and think of a beautiful painting you have seen, a piece of music you have heard, smell of a jasmine flower or a rose, taste of a mango, or a pear, or a peach, the mind recollects those experiences of the different sense faculties. As much as two thoughts will not arise at the same time, no two thoughts will take the same object. If you keep on looking at an object, there will be a number of thoughts arising and falling away. If you do not know, that no two thoughts will take the same object, you will think you had been looking at the same object, for a long time." Thank you Sarah for your kindness and generosity. With metta Charles ++++++++++++++++++++ --- sarah abbott wrote: > H.> "But the mental faculty is different, it can function as a seeing > > faculty, hearing faculty, smelling faculty and so on. > .... > S: I think you are referring to the mind-door consciousness following a > sense door consciousness process. Without the preceding sense-door > consciousness, such as seeing or hearing, there wouldn't be any idea or > imagery about the visible object or sound just seen or heard. I don't > think we can say, however, that mind-door consciousness 'can function' > as > a 'seeing faculty....' Also, 'mental faculty' may be taken for naama, > what > do you think? Of course, as you know, any citta (consciousness) is > naama. > ..... > H.>For instance, > > if you were to close your eyes and think of a beautiful painting you > > have seen, a piece of music you have heard, smell of a jasmine flower > > or a rose, taste of a mango, or a pear, or a peach, the mind would > > imagine those experiences which were the results of the different > > functions of the respective sense faculties. > .... > S: I would just be cautious about using 'results' here. Again, as you > know, in an Abhidhamma sense, results usually refer to vipaka cittas. > Perhaps 'based upon'? > .... > H.>As much as two thoughts > > will not arise at the same time, no two thoughts will take the same > > object. If you keep on looking at an object, there will be a number > > of thoughts arising and falling away. If you do not know, that no two > > thoughts will take the same object, you will think you had been > > looking at the same object, for a long time." > .... > S: Yes, many different cittas (thoughts?), many different concepts of > paintings, flowers or music. #73217 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Curiousity Corner 1 sarahprocter... Hi Andrew T, (Herman & all), Your comments (to Herman) have been percolating. I think they are very helpful for us all. --- Andrew wrote: >......To you, it seems, > saddha = a non-critical acceptance of everything one is told in the > Tipitaka. On the other hand, the suttas contain many, many instances > where the Buddha praised saddha as a treasure and such like. > > I prefer the suttas. I don't believe that saddha requires a zombie- > like acceptance as absolute truth of "Ripley's Believe it or Not" > type facts. Saddha is a clearing of murkiness from the water so that > one can focus on the things that matter at the right time. Sorry, > but the cloud devas and the anger-eating yakkha don't really matter > to me when reflecting upon the true Dhamma. Maybe later. <...> > There's some weird stuff in the Tipitaka. Note it but don't gnaw on > it lest you miss the really good stuff too. Gnawing on it includes > both sides - spitting the dummy or piously pretending it all makes > sense to you when it doesn't. > > That's my two bob's worth. Over and out for me. .... S: I liked the parts skipped for space too. Always very balanced. Hope it's not 'over and out' for you. I think one thing to keep in mind with some of the strange passages is that we relate everything to this time we're born in. We can't know everything about what happened or how people thought at other times in the past. I think this is also relevant to the other passage about Magadha, the speech of the Ariyans that Herman likes to quote. We don't need to speak Pali but at the time the teachings were in Pali and the texts written in Pali. So understanding dhammas then depended on understanding the language which represented dhammas. Herman, hope the job's going well and that Vicki has recovered from her ailments. Metta, Sarah ======= #73218 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. sarahprocter... Dear Nidhi, Thx for your post #72848 with reflections to all. --- wisdomcompassion wrote: > i like to share something about the way i contemplate at times. i advice > all members that if they don't agree with my ideas please discard them. > i m quite an ignorant person. > i had access to spiritual books from an early age in my life. i read > some of them but i must confess none really changed me. because i was > picking ideas what religion/dhamma is. i liked the words truth, > non-violence, faith, non attachement and appreciated them but these were > just concepts as they never penetrated me deeply. since these were > concepts as soon as i closed the book all the good things i felt while > reading were gone! my behaviour wasn't like what it should have been. .... S: Thanks for sharing these and the other reflections I've snipped. Very interesting as usual. I know you're just using it in a conventional sense, but in truth, of course, there's no 'ignorant person', no person's behaviour - just conditioned dhammas arising and passing away. Of course, we all relate to what you say. .... >....To me its not meditation > or non meditation, but actually understanding dhamma within oneself that > really matters. .... S: I think this is well said. ... >I think only proper understanding brings change, not > any system or practice. .... S: Yes! The next question is: understanding of what? ...... >To me the whole of dhamma and spirituality is > "know thyself". i hope all of the people who are on this list would be > able to relate with me, as they all must have listened to dhamma with > their heart, at sometime or other. Otherwise they wouldn't be here > discussing about dhamma. ... S: I think your point is that it's not enough just to read the books and understand the theory. I agree. What is important is the real understanding of dhammas at this moment as we speak. .... > > May all people understand dhamma, may all people understand themselves. ... S: Yes, and in the process, understand that there are only dhammas, no 'myself' or 'themselves'!! Thanks, Nidhi, for all your helpful comments. Metta, Sarah ========= #73219 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: For me, it helps a lot to consider death as > being just another citta (or series of cittas) just like now. No one can > control or change seeing now or hearing now. In the same way, no one can > 'make' the last cittas of life be a certain way. This isn't true; this is just another example of the KS "no control" teaching influencing your thinking. For example, King Asoka, even though he had accumulated great merit (kamma) by giving temples and requisites to Buddhist monks, was reborn as a snake because at the time of his death he was angry about some of his money being stolen. I could give a lot more examples but I don't feel like it. I'm tired and I will be traveling soon, so you can just think what you want to think. (Maybe we can debate this issue some other time) Metta, James #73220 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner sarahprocter... Hi Mike (& Scott), --- m_nease wrote: >What interests me more at > the moment is the connection between the first and second 'rounds' > (thanks again, Nina) of > > sacca~naa.na (firm understanding what they [4NT] are) and > kicca~naa.na (developing direct understanding of them). > > I understand these to correspond to pariyatti and pa.tipatti. .... S: When I've asked KS about this, she always says that sacca~naa.na is greater or firmer than pariyatti. When there is sacca~naa.na, the conceptual understanding is so firm that it cannot be shaken, whereas pariyatti can just be occasional right conceptual understanding about dhammas. Also, sacca~naa.na always refers to the understanding of the 4NT as you indicate. (Of course, even when there is kata~naa.na sacca ~naa.na and kicca ~naa.na are still arising and developing). These 3 rounds of the 4 ariya sacca are referred to in detail in the commentary of the Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta. Someone quoted a note on this recently. .... >The > former, as I understand it, is conceptual and the latter real. > Assuming this to be correct, does, according to the texts, the latter > reality depend (as a condition) on the former concept? > ... S: Again, as I understand, without sacca~naa.na there cannot be kicca~naa.na. If you have one of those rainy Seattle days, take a look at these past posts in U.P. under 'Rounds (3)' in U.P.: >Rounds (3) - sacca ~nana, kicca ~nana. kata ~nana 10233, 10644, 10747,10856, 11829, 11855, 23036, 70040< Also, Nina and others were raising questions on this topic when we were last in Thailand. See this summary she gave: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/67845 >Someone asked her about the first round pertaining to the second noble Truth, craving. She said: we always have to understand this in relation to this moment and she asked us: since this morning were you searching for something? The answer is: yes: we get up want things like breakfast, we want to see, to hear, we want to go on living. Most of the time we are getting things for ourselves, for our comfort. Perhaps this sounds futile, but it is important to realize such moments as they are. Then we begin to see the second noble Truth. So many, many moments with attachment (even slight) pass unnoticed. The first Truth: dukkha, is deep and difficult to see. We do not realize yet the arising and falling away of the dhammas at this moment. Then we do not really penetrate the second noble Truth. (I do not speak about suffering in general or other aspects of it.) So long as we have not understood the first noble Truth, it is not possible to really understand the second noble Truth. We also asked about the first round in relation to nibbaana, the third noble Truth. When we have more understanding of our clinging right now and all our defilements right now, we shall also have more understanding of the end of clinging and defilements. As to the Path: there must be firm understanding that this is the right Path: developing understanding of whatever dhamma appearing right now. No deviation from the right Path led by craving for a fast result.< ***** Metta, Sarah ======= #73221 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: >>S: ... No one can > > control or change seeing now or hearing now. In the same way, no one > can > > 'make' the last cittas of life be a certain way. .... > This isn't true; this is just another example of the KS "no control" > teaching influencing your thinking. For example, King Asoka, even > though he had accumulated great merit (kamma) by giving temples and > requisites to Buddhist monks, was reborn as a snake because at the > time of his death he was angry about some of his money being stolen. .... S: Is this correct? I don't recall having heard it. Can you give me a source? Interesting. In any case, this is exactly my point that he or Queen Mallika or many other examples we can find, even with their great wisdom and confidence, couldn't 'control' the last cittas of life. Of course, sotapannas cannot be reborn in lower realms, but even for them, the 'destination' or last cittas are beyond control. .... > I could give a lot more examples but I don't feel like it. I'm tired > and I will be traveling soon, so you can just think what you want to > think. (Maybe we can debate this issue some other time) .... S: I'm sure you are busy. Yes, leave it for another time if you like. Have a good trip, James. Metta, Sarah ======= #73222 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:28 am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. wisdomcompas... Dear Sarah, > S: Yes! The next question is: understanding of what? ******* understanding of emotions, value judgements, clinging, indulgence and resistance,sense objects, mind..... in short what you call as dhammas or realities. which I think is very broad term. But i m liking this term now, as this is helping much more in my understanding. effectively i was doing the same thing earlier as well, but understanding in the way Nina have suggested is helping me for betterment.I thank Nina for that. I admit earlier i had resistance to what you and Nina were suggesting but after little bit of understanding of abhidhamma and after i tried to understand realities as Nina suggested, it has gone because i see worth in what you are saying. Though i still have some differences, regarding meditation and what you call as understanding and some other points as well, but still DSG is an important event in my life. Sarah, can you provide me any link of what actually KS is saying in nutshell. any form of material will do. Without fully understanding I cannot comprehend full significance of what she is suggesting. my net connection is slow so i cannot download audio files. with metta, nidhi #73223 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [2] nilovg Hi Howard, The point I wanted to bring forward is: knowing the story of rebirth is of a dimension different from pa~n~naa that directly knows, illuminates, the truth of citta that arises and falls away and is succeeded by a next citta. In other words, death and rebirth are just like citta now that arises and falls away. As to knowing the story of rebirth, I gave the example of the investigations of rebirth done in Sri Lanka. This is more in the field of science, the field of knowing. This is the point that Ken H tried to explain time and again. Actually we return to the title: just like now. As to the quote below: I cannot vouch for others, but I do not directly experience the truth yet. Still, I learnt what I did not know before: that there are different cittas experiencing different objects through six doors, that thinking of visible object is different from seeing. Thus, I start to verify in my life nama and rupa, it is a beginning. The development has to be slow. I can find out that dhammas appearing through the different doorways do so in their own time, that it has nothing to do with wanting to concentrate on them, or wanting to pay attention to them. Also that sati and pa~n~naa will arise in their own time, no person who can make them appear. I am also sure about it that understanding slowly grows by listening and considering. Satipatthana, mindfulness of nama and rupa that appear now, will lead me on to the right goal. I cannot say about this: "I believe" or "It seems to me". That is too weak. Nina. Op 10-jun-2007, om 18:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > In any case, all of us here are, for > the most part, so far from direct experience of the truth, that it > would > serve us well to get used to saying "I believe" or "It seems to > me"! :-) #73224 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... Hi Ken, > There is another way of knowing anatta, and that is the gradual way. > A person finds a teacher, listens to explanations concerning the > void, and wisely considers those explanations. He/she understands > that *at this very moment* there are only conditioned namas and > rupas, each of which bears the inherent characteristics, anicca > dukkha and anatta. > > After practising in this way many, many times and learning about > dhammas in great detail, the student's right understanding grows to > such an extent that satipatthana can be practised. This is when > conditioned dhammas become the direct (not just theoretical) object > of panna. > > The practice of satipatthana proceeds through stages, and it is not > until the final stage that there is direct knowledge of anatta. This > is when the Buddha's teaching has been fully penetrated and nibbana > can at last be realised. ****** N: you explained it very nicely ken. I fully agree with you here. and this is actually what i was doing, though it surely refines my understanding and my practice as well. Thanks for explaining me that. ******* > So, although I know what you mean when you say you have experienced > anatta in meditation (and most of us have had similar experiences) I > think you must agree it is not the same experience that is reached > via the gradual method. ******** N: Oh surely it was gradual method. I think time must not be calculated in terms of years or births, but in terms of moments of persistence, diligence, faith and interest and state of non-desire of result. I consider myself walking on this gradual path. But one difference of opinion is there; I meditate. In that what i do is to understand realities as they arise; though i do it with eyes closed. Initally i used to do aanapan, but now I use it only when required and when i go to retreat. (it must be understood that usage of word 'I' is in conventional sense). I prefer to do something as suggested by suttas. So far it has been nice. ********* > There are others here who have the same attitude towards 'watching.' > As I understand their descriptions, sometimes 'watching' is done for > the right (kusala) reasons, while at other times it is done for the > wrong reasons - with akusala thoughts of gaining something (wisdom or > calm etc) for oneself. The main thing, they say, is that we "Just > do it!" > > But can that be the way taught by the Buddha? Surely akusala > intentions cannot possibly form part of the Path. No, I am sure that > is not the way. ********** N: I don't know what others say. I think I can only talk about myself. But yes akusala cannot be part of Dhamma. ********** > Yes, this is where the Dhamma (the Buddha's teaching) comes in. I > think you will agree that Nina, Sarah and KS associate right > understanding solely with the Buddha's teaching. Meditators, on the > other hand, associate it with a meditation technique. Some of them > will say it is not even necessary to have heard of the Dhamma; "Just > meditate!" ******* N: I don't subscribe to such meditators. But I think I still haven't fully understood what their (Nina, Sarah, and KS's) understanding is. ******* The conventional version of Buddhism (in > which we can "just do it!") is a cosy, commonsense, religion that is > the envy of other religions. It is understandable that people with > religious inclinations will cling to it. ******* N: Oh, is it so? I haven't met many buddhists. Only very few vipassana meditators. But very few people understand dhamma deeply, and its quite unfortuanate. But its not strange, people are similar throughout the world, that is bound by their emotions and opinions. I m not exception to that. ******* > As I > understand the term, opinions can be good and worthy. However, while > they remain *mere* opinions (while they are still not confirmed by > complete penetration of the Buddha's teaching) they cannot eradicate > defilements, and the way out of samsara has still not been > reached. ******** N: yes, you have nicely worded what i was trying to say.I have a couple of question for you; What do you think how defilements are eradicated? Are you(conventional usage) eradicating defilements? what KS says about that? My intention is to learn and refine my understanding, if i can, otherwise I like to share what i understand. with metta, nidhi #73225 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... hello ramesh, > Its great that u had attended the couple of courses at dhammagiri > Igatpuri...and taking so much part here in dhamma discussions... ******* Thanks for appreciation. metta, nidhi #73226 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:47 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant'( subconscious and unconscious mind) wisdomcompas... Dear Nina, thanks for your reply. I haven't read about mahayana so i can't say anything about that,But my doubt is cleared now. thanks again. metta, nidhi ******** > Dear Nidhi, > Mahaayana uses the word store consciousness, which is strange, > because it seems that there is another citta in addition to the > present citta. > The term subconsciousness is not in the Tipitaka nor in the Theravada > commentaries. > The anusaya are the latent tendencies lying dormant in the citta and > they are passed on from citta to citta. They can condition the > arising of akusala citta. > Kusala and akusala arising at the present time fall away and they are > accumulated as inclinations. These go on from citta to citta, also to > following lives. They do not stay somewhere as in a store. This > subject is very vast, I cannot explain all in one post. > Nina. #73227 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant'( subconscious and unconscious... wisdomcompas... Dear Nina and Howard, Howard, thanks for sharing about mahayana views. ****** > The Mahayana notion of "store consciousness" (or "alayavijnana") seems > to be a blending of the Theravadin ideas of bhavangasota and anusaya. It's > primary function seems to be that of depositing and propagating of "seeds". > These "seeds" seem to refer to karmic traces or accumulations. > This posited store consciousness is one of two extra types of > consciousness in Mahayana theory beyond the standard six. Store consciousness is > counted as the 8th consciousness, with the other, the 7th, being "manas" which is > the self-making operation treated as a separate mode of consciousness. This > "manas" grasps at store consciousness as "self". I view these 7th and 8th > consciousnesses as unnecessary. ****** N: yes, quite true, but it could be one way of explaining the process. though i m satisfied with abhidhammic way. ****** > Of course, I don't see any need for bhavanga citta either (though I > don't disbelieve in it), nor for *literal* accumulations! ;-) In that latter > regard, repeated mental conditions, IMO, serve riight then and there, at the very > time of their occurrence, for future reactions, without anything being > "passed along". The effect occurs when all requisite conditions have arisen. Just as > action-at-a-distance in space and time is countenced in quantum mechanics, I > consider that to be the case for mental phenomena. It's just this/that > conditionality, with no "seed passing" of any sort required. As for "the" > subconcious, thought as a subterranean mental world, I don't buy it. > But I do buy mental functioning at subliminal levels - seeing, > hearing, tasting, smelling, bodily sensing, and, very much, thinking that do not rise > to the level of conscious awareness. This can be noticed when, being lost in > thought while driving, one suddenly notices that s/he is pulling up to their > house without having been consciously aware of the last three minutes of > driving. This also can be noticed when one has been intently trying to figure out a > difficult problem, say in mathematics or science or medicine, but with no > success, and then forgets about it, even "sleeps on it", and then, the next day, > suddenly, the solution pops into one's mind. Subliminal processing has been > underway. > > With metta, > Howard ******** N: yes, it think its nicely explained. but still one doubt remains, if there is nothing like unconscious or subconscious mind then what takes place in case of a person who develops the power of recalling previous lives. i had believed earlier that it was hidden in the unconscious mind. But if nothing like a store or unconscious mind exists then why do not normal people recall that. what is the hinderance. Defilements cannot be hinderance in that case as there is nothing like store and layers. Is it necessarily associated with jhannic experience. with metta, nidhi #73228 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:23 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner philofillet Hi Mike you wrote: > > So it may be that 'conceptual right view' as described in the Great > > Forty e.g.--"There is what is given and what is offered and what is > > sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; > there > > is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; > there > > are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world > good > > and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for > themselves by > > direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.' > This is > > right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the > > acquisitions."--clearly conceptual, wouldn't you agree?--might be a > > necessary (object or strong-dependence) condition for for > subsequent > > insight. The way it seems to me lately--I'm still trying to > > corroborate this from the texts--is that this is usually or > generally > > the case but perhaps not always. > > > > I know I'm doing a lot of rehashing here. Does any of this make > sense > > to you? Yes, makes sense, to the shallow degree that I can wrap my head around it. My practice is getting shallower and shallower, further away from the paramattha. I wonder why that is - the other day I went to a Starbucks and sat in front of it and just watched people walking by, watched my thoughts about them. A couple of years ago, at the same Starbucks, I sat for 3 straight hours with the Comprehensive Manual of Abdhidhamma poring over the section on the conditional relations. Now, no inclination to study them, but I find just sitting there and watching my thoughts about what is going on around and letting go of the unwholesome thoughts is all I need or want to do, Dhamma wise. I really think I will be back at the Abdhidhamma someday, but for now all I can say about the above is, yes, makes sense I guess! Metta, Phil #73229 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] It might be true or it might not.. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/11/07 12:17:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > ++++++++ > Dear Howard > I am not fully satisfied. In many posts you have said that you KNOW > that you had second to fifth jhana, while doing Transcendental > Meditation. Your account is different from classic Theravada: > why "I might have.." is missing in your case, whereas a crucial > element of Dhamma - rebirth - should be one that we doubt? --------------------------------------------- Howard: If I said that I KNEW that I had entered a jhana at all, I was remiss. But I don't recall saying that I knew that to be a fact. I do *believe* I did. What I experienced seems to match well what Leigh Brasington described as my "stumbling into the jhanas" and "shuttling between the 2nd and 5th jhanas". I think it is quite likely that that was the case. I would appreciate your finding a case where I said that I *knew* that I had entered jhanas. I do not recall that at all. I certainly do not *know* it. I DO know that I had experiences that were unusual, wonderful, and that well matched descriptions of jhanas. So I do have much confidence. But I don't KNOW that those states were jhanic. How can I know? Where did I say that I *knew* it, Robert? If I did, I apologize for making an unfounded assertion, and I hereby retract it. I don't at all recall saying it though, and I'd appreciate an example. ------------------------------------------------ > > BTW I know you like Zen, have you read any Brad Warner, I saw an > article, loooked rather uniformed, but I see he has written a couple > of books and is getting popular? > ++++ > WARNER: >>>>>>>Sometimes I'm asked if bio-feedback might be a good > way to ascertain if one is making proper progress in Zen practice. > >>The basic idea behind this kind of thinking goes like this. First, > we assume that there is a better state than the one we have now. > Higher states are just a fantasy. You may be able to create a > pretty fantasy and devise ways of attaining it. But what you have > attained is only the fulfillment of your fantasy. It is never the > reality of here and now. > >>What is really needed is not the ability to induce temporary > lapses into so-called "higher states," but the ability to understand > thoroughly and exactly what this state we have right here and right > now truly is (and is not). This is the key to everything. When > anger, hatred or greed arises and one understands them fully for > what they are, they have no power. You will never understand the > truth of these things by running away from them into fantasies > of "higher consciousness." They will always, always, always come > right back and bite you on the ass as soon as your vacation in the > astral plane is over. The reason is simple. It was greed for > spiritual power, anger at your lack of progress and hatred for those > less "spiritual" than you that got you to your so-called "higher > state" in the first place. > There are serious problems in the world right now! Stop farting > around with toys and games! > Brad Warner>>>>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------- Howard: When I had learned TM and then practiced it for 3 months prior to the apparent jhana, I knew nothing of the Dhamma and nothing of jhanas. I had no expectations of the meditating except calming the mind. Oh, the official line was that of "transcending" grosser states of mind, but that meant nothing in particular to me. What occurred came as a complete (and wonderful) surprise to me. As for this Mr. Warner saying "Higher states are just a fantasy," I think that differs a tad from what the Buddha said, don't you? ---------------------------------------------- > ++++ > Robert > ===================== With metta, Howard #73230 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] It might be true or it might not.. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: >> If I said that I KNEW that I had entered a jhana at all, I was remiss. > But I don't recall saying that I knew that to be a fact. I> I would appreciate your finding a case where I said that I *knew* that > I had entered jhanas. I do not recall that at all. I certainly do not *know* > it. +++++++++ Dear Howard, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73088 Howard: >>No, I'm certain it was jhana. Leigh described it actually as a shuttling between the 2nd and 5th jhanas. That actually makes sense, given the nature of the experience. But this happened just that once.>> Yes, Warner seems a trifle misinformed, perhaps he was overstressing his point that it is 'ordinary mind' that is important. Robert #73231 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [2] upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/11/07 5:49:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > The point I wanted to bring forward is: knowing the story of rebirth > is of a dimension different from pa~n~naa that directly knows, > illuminates, the truth of citta that arises and falls away and is > succeeded by a next citta. In other words, death and rebirth are just > like citta now that arises and falls away. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, Nina. That is exactly what I believe. Death and rebirth are just moments in the flow of experience. -------------------------------------- > As to knowing the story of rebirth, I gave the example of the > investigations of rebirth done in Sri Lanka. This is more in the > field of science, the field of knowing. > This is the point that Ken H tried to explain time and again. > Actually we return to the title: just like now. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, that is how I view the matter. ----------------------------------------- > > As to the quote below: I cannot vouch for others, but I do not > directly experience the truth yet. Still, I learnt what I did not > know before: that there are different cittas experiencing different > objects through six doors, that thinking of visible object is > different from seeing. Thus, I start to verify in my life nama and > rupa, it is a beginning. The development has to be slow. I can find > out that dhammas appearing through the different doorways do so in > their own time, that it has nothing to do with wanting to concentrate > on them, or wanting to pay attention to them. Also that sati and > pa~n~naa will arise in their own time, no person who can make them > appear. I am also sure about it that understanding slowly grows by > listening and considering. > Satipatthana, mindfulness of nama and rupa that appear now, will lead > me on to the right goal. I cannot say about this: "I believe" or "It > seems to me". That is too weak. ------------------------------------- Howard: Formost things, I cannot say "I know". That is too strong. ;-) ------------------------------------ > Nina. > ================== With metta, Howard #73232 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:18 am Subject: Visuddhimagga,161-163 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 161, 162, 163. Intro: in the preceding sections the death-consciousness and the rebirth-consciousness were compared, being classified as similar or dissimilar as to the khandhas, objects, destiny, accompanying hetus, feelings and jhaanafactors. We think of the life of a person that ends and is then followed by another life. In reality the dying-consciousness is a citta and this is followed by another citta, the rebirth-consciousness. The dying- consciousness of the life that is ending is of the same type of citta as the rebirth-consciousness of that life and of all bhavangacittas of that life. The bhavangacittas keep the continuity in the life of an individual. When rebirth-consciousness arises one is no longer the same individual even if one is born in a similar plane of existence and experiences a similar object. In the following sections the Visuddhimagga describes the process of human death and rebirth. There are only naama and ruupa that are reborn when there is rebirth in a five khandha plane. --------- Text Vis.161: A mere state that has got its conditions Ushers in the ensuing existence; While it does not migrate from the past, With no cause in the past it is not. --------- Text Vis. 162: So it is a mere material and immaterial state, arising when it has obtained its conditions, that is spoken of, saying that it comes into the next becoming; it is not a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither transmigrated from the past becoming nor yet is it manifested here without cause from that. ---------- N: As to the conditions, the Tiika states that ignorance and so on are the cause. So long as ignorance and clinging have not been eradicated, there is a cause for rebirth. As to the expression, ‘it comes’ (upeti), this, according to the Tiika, is an expression of conventional language (vohaara). Therefore he said, ‘ it is not a lasting being, not a soul.’ The meaning is that there is arising of citta in a next life so long as there are conditions for it. ------------ Text Vis.163: We shall explain this by the normal process of human death and rebirth-linking. When in the past becoming a man near to a natural or violent death is unable to bear the onset of the unbearable daggers of the joints in all the limbs, his body gradually withers like a green palm leaf lying in the glare of the sun, and when the faculties of the eye, etc., have ceased and the body faculty, mind faculty, and life faculty remain on in the heart-basis alone, then consciousness, which has as its support the heart-basis still remaining at that moment, either occurs contingent upon some kamma classed as 'weighty','repeated', performed 'near' [to death] or previously, -------- N: The Tiika explains as to garuka kamma, weighty kamma, that this may be matricide, etc. or mahaggata citta, ruupa-jhaanacitta or aruupa-jhaanacitta. As to repeated kamma: what has been always or repeatedly done. Of 'near' kamma Pm. says, 'It is that performed next to death, or which is conspicuous in the memory then, whenever it was performed' (Pm. 617). -------- Text Vis.: in other words, the formation that has obtained the remaining conditions, ------- N: The Tiika explains that this is ignorance etc. Ignorance conditions formations, sa"nkhaara, akusala kamma, kusala kamma and imperturbable kamma (aruupa jhaana). ---------- Text Vis.: or contingent upon the objective field made to appear by that kamma, in other words, the sign of the kamma or sign of the destiny. -------- N: Note from the translator, taken from the Tiika: ' "Sign of the kamma" is the event (vatthu) by means of which a man accumulates kamma through making it the object at the time of accumulation. Even if the kamma was performed as much as a hundred thousand aeons ago, nevertheless at the time of its ripening it appears as kamma or sign of kamma. The "sign of destiny" is one of the visual scenes in the place where rebirth is due to take place. It consists in the visual appearance of flames of fire, etc., to one ready to be reborn in hell, and so on as already stated' (Pm. 617). ----------- Text Vis.: And while it is occurring thus, because craving and ignorance have not been abandoned, craving pushes it and the conascent formations fling it forward on that objective field, ---------- N: Note 30, taken from the Tiika; 'Owing to craving being unabandoned, and because the previously-arisen continuity is similarly deflected, consciousness occurs inclining, leaning and tending towards the place of rebirth-linking. The "conascent formations" are the volitions conascent with the impulsion consciousness next to death. Or they are all those that begin with contact. They fling consciousness on to that place of rebirth- linking, which is the object of the kamma and so on. The meaning is that they occur as the cause for the establishment of consciousness on the object by rebirth-linking as though flinging it there'. ----------- Text Vis.: the dangers in which are concealed by ignorance. --------- N: Ignorance conceals the danger of rebirth, of being in the cycle. It also conceals the danger of clinging. ---------- Text Vis.: And while, as a continuous process [31], it is being pushed by craving and flung forward by formations, it abandons its former support, like a man who crosses a river by hanging on to a rope tied to a tree on the near bank, and, whether or not it gets a further support originated by kamma, it occurs by means of the conditions consisting only in object condition, and so on. --------------------------- N: Note 31, taken from the Tiika:. 'As a continuous process consisting of death, rebirth-linking, and the adjacent consciousnesses' (Pm. 617). This shows that cittas arise and fall away and succeed one another without interval, in continuity (santati). Dying-consciousness, rebirth-consciosuness and the following cittas in the next life succeed one another extremely quickly. As we read before (Vis. 136), with regard to the location of rebirth: ‘ being driven there by the force of defilements that have not been cut off.’, these are the defilements such as ignorance and craving (tanhaa), as the Tiika explains. It states that these are the ‘attendants’ (upa.t.thaana) of kamma and hence there is the inclining to the succession of cittas in a following life. The pa.tisandhi- citta is driven towards one location. As to the expression, ‘whether or not it gets a further support originated by kamma’, the Tiika states that when there is rebirth with five khandhas (pa~ncavokaarabhava) there is the support of the heartbase, whereas when there is rebirth with four khandhas (catuvokaarabhava), there is no heartbase. In the latter case there are only the four naamakhandhas, no ruupa. As the text states: < it occurs by means of the conditions consisting only in object condition, and so on.> As we have seen, the kamma that will produce rebirth-consciousness, conditions the last javanacittas and the object experienced by those cittas. The object may be kamma, a sign of kamma or a vision of the place of rebirth. ****** Conclusion: It is emphasized in the foregoing that not a person is reborn, but that there are only nama and rupa arising and falling away. The dying-consciousness is a citta and it is immediately succeeded by the next citta which is the rebirth-consciousness. This happens as it were in one continuity. As we read, (162) ‘ it is not a lasting being, not a soul. And it has neither transmigrated from the past becoming nor yet is it manifested here without cause from that.’ The Tiika refers to a text of the ‘Middle Length Sayings’ (I, no 38), ‘Greater Discourse on the Destruction of Craving’. The monk Sati thought that ‘this consciousness itself runs on, fares on, not another.’ We read that the Buddha explained to him about citta that arises because of its appropriate conditions. He explained that if citta arises because of eye and visible object it is known as seeing- consciousness, and so on for the other classes of cittas. There are different types of cittas arising because of different conditions. Not a person transmigrates from the past life to the present life, and so long as there are conditions there will be rebirth. What happens at the moments of dying and rebirth is not different from wat occurs right now: citta falls away and it is succeeded by a following citta. Nobody can control rebirth, it is conditioned by kamma. ****** Nina. #73233 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [2] nilovg Hi Howard, For me the issue is not knowing, but understanding. Nina. Op 11-jun-2007, om 14:54 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > For most things, I cannot say "I know". That is too strong #73234 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant'( subconscious and unconscious... upasaka_howard Hi, Nidhi - In a message dated 6/11/07 7:05:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wisdomcompassion@... writes: > N: yes, it think its nicely explained. but still one doubt remains, if > there is nothing like unconscious or subconscious mind then what takes > place in case of a person who develops the power of recalling previous > lives. i had believed earlier that it was hidden in the unconscious > mind. But if nothing like a store or unconscious mind exists then why > do not normal people recall that. what is the hinderance. Defilements > cannot be hinderance in that case as there is nothing like store and > layers. Is it necessarily associated with jhannic experience. > > ========================= As I see it, once certain conditions occur, the nature of all future states is changed, but not until all these requisite conditions occur. The moment all the conditions have been met it is a critical point, a turning point. It is analogous to water being chilled. It remains as water until the moment that the temperature drops to zero degrees C, and suddenly a crystalizing occurs. The defect in this analogy is that temperature is but one factor. In general, multiple sorts of condition are involved. With metta, Howard #73235 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] It might be true or it might not.. upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 6/11/07 8:32:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... writes: > Dear Howard, > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73088 > Howard: > >>No, I'm certain it was jhana. Leigh described it actually as a > shuttling between the 2nd and 5th jhanas. That actually makes sense, > given the > nature > of the experience. But this happened just that once.>> --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I'm quite certain. But I don't know it for a fact. To be certain means only to have no doubt (or negligible doubt). There are lots of things I am certain of but do not know for a fact. So, I think I'm correct - I never said that I *know* I entered jhanas. I DO know that it is possible to experience through the sense doors in the usual fashion yet with no sense of experiencer present at all. I KNOW that, because I've had the experience. You see, that is a different sort of thing. I do NOT, however, know that this constituted an awakening of any sort, and I do not assert that it was. It merely was an experience without a sense of knower. More than that I cannot say. Some things we do know, and others we do not. Of those we do not know, we may have certainty or moderate confidence or weak belief or no belief at all. ---------------------------------------------- > > Yes, Warner seems a trifle misinformed, perhaps he was overstressing > his point that it is 'ordinary mind' that is important. > Robert > ======================== With metta, Howard #73236 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:39 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 3, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Akusala can condition akusala citta by way of object- predominance- condition. We read in the “Patthåna”, in the same section, § 415: (One) esteems, enjoys and delights in lust. Taking it as estimable object, arises lust, arises wrong views. (One) esteems, enjoys and delights in wrong views. Taking it as estimable object, arises lust, arise wrong views. If someone does not see the danger of lobha, he considers it the goal of his life to have as much enjoyment as possible. We like to enjoy nature, to buy beautiful cloths, to eat delicious food, to hear nice music. We like to enjoy all the pleasant things of life. It is natural that we enjoy pleasant things, but we can also develop right understanding of the different cittas which arise in daily life. Pleasant sense objects are desirable and they can condition lobha- múla-citta by way of object-predominance-condition. It may happen that we have many duties to do but that we are so carried away by the sound of music that we leave our duties and play the piano or go to a concert. Then we give preponderance to sound and this is object- predominance-condition for lobha-múla-citta. This happens time and again in our daily life. We should not pretend that we do not have lobha, we should come to know our inclinations as they are. When lobha has arisen already because of its own conditions we should not ignore it, but we can develop right understanding of it. When there is mindfulness of lobha when it appears it can be known as a conditioned nåma, not self. We read in the “Patthåna” (in the same section, § 416): (One) esteems, enjoys and delights in the eye... ear... nose... tongue... body... visible object... sound... smell... taste... tangible object... (heart-)base... Taking it as estimable object, arises lust, arises wrong views... The rúpas with have their own distinct nature [1] can be object- predominance-condition. Rúpa which is a desirable object can be object-predominance-condition only for lobha-múla-citta. Rupa cannot condition kusala citta by way of object-predominance-condition, only by way of object-condition. For example, we want to give beautiful flowers to someone else. Then rúpa, such as colour or odour, can condition kusala citta by way of object-condition, rúpa is the object experienced by kusala citta. That rúpa cannot be object-predominance- condition for kusala citta, one does not give preponderance to it, one is intent on giving it away. The kusala one has performed, such as generosity, may be object-predominance-condition for kusala citta, then there are conditions for more kusala cittas. Rúpa in itself does not condition further development of kusala, that is conditioned by other factors. The development of kusala is conditioned by the kusala one accumulated in the past, and also by the factors of chanda (wish- to-do), viriya (effort), citta and vimaÿsa (investigation of the Dhamma), which are conascent-predominance-conditions. -------- 1. These are sabhåva rúpas. “Bhåva” means nature and “sa” means together with. There are also asabhåva rúpas, which are not rúpas with their own distinct nature but which are special qualities or characteristics connected with other rúpas. Sabhåva rúpas are, for example, the four great Elements, the sense objects and the sense organs. Asabhåva rúpas, rúpas which do not have their own distinct nature, are, for example, the special qualities of rúpa which are lightness, pliancy and wieldiness. Or the four characteristics of rúpa which are integration, continuation, decay and impermanence of rúpa. ******* Nina. #73237 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:52 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 2, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, No matter we are walking or sitting, discussing Dhamma, there are conditions for all the åyatanas of daily life, for the sense-bases and the sense objects, for the mind-base, mental objects, and for the cittas which experience these objects. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XV, 5, 6) [1] about the åyatanas: Furthermore, base (åyatana) should be understood in the sense of place of abode, store (mine), meeting place, locality of birth and cause... And these various states of consciousness and its concomitants (cetasikas) dwell in the eye, etc., because they exist in dependence on them, so the eye, etc., are their place of abode. And they frequent the eye, etc., because they have them (respectively) as their (material) support and as their object, so the eye, etc., are their store. And the eye, etc., are their meeting place because they meet together in one or other of them, (using them) as physical basis, door, and object. And the eye, etc., are the locality of their birth because they arise just there, having them as their respective supports and objects. And the eye, etc., are their reason (hetu or cause) because they are absent when the eye, etc., are absent. Seeing-consciousness and its accompanying cetasikas “dwell in the eye”, the eye is their place of dependence and the place where they originate: seeing- consciousness arises at the eye-base; hearing-consciousness arises at the ear- base and the other sense-cognitions arise at their respective bases. The “Atthasåliní” (I, Part IV, Ch II, Discourse on the Section of Exposition, 141) explains that in the case of manåyatana, mind-base, which includes all cittas, the three terms of birth-place, meeting-place and reason (or cause) are suitable: ...For mind is åyatana in the sense of birth-place as in the passage: —“dhammas such as contact (phassa) [2], are born in the mind.” And mind is åyatana in the sense of a meeting-place, as in the passage:- “External objects, visible, audible, olfactory, gustatory and tangible assemble there as objects in the mind.” And mind is åyatana in the sense of reason (or ground), because of its being the cause-in-relation of the co-existence, etc., of contact and so on. --------------- 1. See also “Dispeller of Delusion” I, Ch 2, Classification of the Bases. 2. Contact, phassa, is a cetasika arising with each citta. It “contacts” the object so that citta can experience it. Some cetasikas arise with each citta, others don’t. ******* Nina. #73238 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:12 am Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > S: Is this correct? I don't recall having heard it. Can you give me a > source? Interesting. > > In any case, this is exactly my point that he or Queen Mallika or many > other examples we can find, even with their great wisdom and confidence, > couldn't 'control' the last cittas of life. Of course, sotapannas cannot > be reborn in lower realms, but even for them, the 'destination' or last > cittas are beyond control. > .... Sorry for the tone of my last post. I am tired because I am giving up coffee and so the withdrawal is making me lethargic and irritable ;-)). I did a search on the Internet about Ashoka's rebirth and I couldn't find anything. I remember having read it in a book sometime ago. But perhaps it wasn't Ashoka, but another patron of the Buddha during the Buddha's life? Sorry, I just can't remember- my thoughts are not so clear today. ;-)) Anyway, back to the issue at hand. I do not believe that you are putting forth the right message with your saying "this is exactly my point that he or Queen Mallika or many other examples we can find, even with their great wisdom and confidence, couldn't 'control' the last cittas of life….the 'destination' or last cittas are beyond control." First, I really dislike that word "control"; it is way too vague. The situation is not so hopeless, passive, and `beyond any control'. There are steps that we can take to ensure a good death and a good rebirth. Isn't that why you are posting the series about Alan's death? If you think that everything is out of our control, what is your point? Let me remind you again about the series on Mindfulness of Death that I posted. I did it for a reason. People should practice mindfulness of death because not only does it inspire a sense of samvegga, it also creates the conditions for tranquillity at the time of death, which in turn creates the conditions for a fortunate rebirth. I will quote again from the Vism. the conclusion section on the Mindfulness of Death: "But while beings who have not developed [mindfulness of] death fall victims to fear, horror and confusion at the time of death as though suddenly seized by wild beasts, spirits, snakes, robbers, or murderers, he dies undeluded and fearless without falling into any such state. And if he does not attain the deathless here and now, he is at least headed for a happy destiny on the break up of the body." The state of one's mind at death is important and, if calm and collected, can result in a fortunate rebirth. Okay, I think I have said enough. I feel dizzy and I need to drink some lemon water and get some more rest. :-) Metta, James #73239 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment nilovg Hi James, Rob K gave you a good answer. In the case of a dry insight person the lokuttara citta would be accompanied by samaadhi of the same intensity as the first jhaana. The stage of the stream-enterer, sotapanna, is the first stage of enlightenment. Yes, lokuttara cittas arise and they experience nibbaana. Take a rest before your trip. Some coffee would not harm. Have a good trip and return safely, Nina. Op 11-jun-2007, om 2:47 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > If this concentration is of the intensity of mundane > jhana, which jhana does it correspond to: first, second, third, > fourth, or immaterial jhanas? Is lokuttara citta supposed to occur at > stream-entry also? #73240 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) nilovg Hi TG, It is difficult for me to say anything constructive about energy, because I do not see a textual reference that all phenomena (conditioned phenomena) are energies. Your use of energy is different from what is taught about viriya cetasika, energy of effort. Right effort in vipassanå is right effort to be aware of whatever reality appears at this moment. This is the kind of energy I like to talk about. -------- TG quotesN: We can get used to the characteristic of seeing and gradually we shall cling less to an idea of I see. ........................................ NEW TG: The Suttas say that -- "We can get used to the characteristics of seeing and gradually we shall cling less to an idea of I see"? I don't think so. Now, If you mean that by understanding the principles of conditionality and applying that knowledge to the experience of seeing ... that this will result in clinging less; then I agree. But in such a case I think any focus on the "characteristic of seeing" is off the mark. Unless that "characteristic" is "conditionality" pure and simple. ............................................ N: We read in the Discourse pertaining to the Great Sixfold Sense- field (Middle Length Sayings III, no. 149) that the Buddha, while he was staying near Såvatthí in the Jeta Grove, said to the monks: Monks, (anyone) not knowing, not seeing eye as it really is, not knowing, not seeing material shapes... visual consciousness... impact on the eye as it really is, and not knowing, not seeing as it really is the feeling, whether pleasant, painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is attached to the eye, is attached to material shapes, is attached to visual consciousness, is attached to impact on the eye; and as for that feeling, whether pleasant, painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye–to that too is he attached. While he, observing the satisfaction, is attached, bound and infatuated, the five khandhas of grasping go on to future accumulation. And his craving, which is connected with again- becoming, accompanied by attachment and delight, finding its pleasure here and there, increases in him. And his physical anxieties increase, and mental anxieties increase, and physical torments increase, and mental torments increase, and physical fevers increase, and mental fevers increase. He experiences anguish of body and anguish of mind. -------- N: The sutta begins: not knowing, not seeing eye as it really is. The khandhas have to be seen as they really are. The khandhas; nama and rupa. Take seeing, it has to be known as it really is. Do we? We mix it with thinking on account of visible object. It is still my seeing, my thinking. Seeing has a charactreistic different from colour. You do not like the word characteristic or character, but call it anything you like. It is that which can be directly experienced. First we have to be sure about charactreistic: it is not theory. Then we shall also understand (I mean not only in theory) that dependent on visible object and eyesense seeing arises. We find this in many suttas. ------ NEW TG: Understand conditions is essential. Much more than "just a help." This is the heart of the practice/insight (and science) of Buddha's teaching. ------ N: We have to understand what conditions what and in what way. It is intricate. Nina. ..... Op 9-jun-2007, om 3:29 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > All phenomena (conditioned phenomena) are energies. #73241 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. nilovg Dear Nidhi, you could try this link: Nina. Op 11-jun-2007, om 11:28 heeft wisdomcompassion het volgende geschreven: > Sarah, can you provide me any link of what actually KS is saying in > nutshell #73242 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati rameshat27 Hi Nidhi, It wrong thing written by you..I had not attended many courses at dhammagiri Igatpuri.. I had attended just one course in 2003...bhuddhism and its principle are not new to me.. I am born bhudhhist and since frm childhood..the people who had done the renounciation and went completely refuge to the Bhuddha,Dhamma and Sangha .....the Monks visited my home. I hear sangha people statements since frm my childhood..I also know how these sangha person disturbed by other community people..still India is under Caste separated system...castism is still the backbone of indian culture.. Here in India all the Bhuddhism and its literature is destroyed by Moghuls and then the Brahmines ones..I am also the victim of Castism when I was a student and learning in Pune Engg College..bcz of goenkaji efforts other Caste people come to know abt bhuddhism... I suffered in India bcz of castism but still i felt pity towards pune people and there nature..which is so bad.. It is not in pune but every part in India..still people frm heigher cast hate the bhuddhist people..and also don't want them to grow financially and by status..but now in india the bhuddhist people r also united and progressing fastly.. bcz of so much social organisations efforts in pune and also in other part of the india now castism reduced..but i appreciated the gr8 efforts of goenkaji..they had done gr8 work to let the people know what is bhuddhism and how much shamefull thing done by heigher caste people in India by destroying Bhuddhism frm india.. ok here..I don't want to talk so much abt on the worst part of INDIA ..I can wrote one book on it... BE HAPPY Ramesh Patil In Mission Mumbai, India On 6/11/07, wisdomcompassion wrote: > > hello ramesh, > > > Its great that u had attended the couple of courses at dhammagiri > > Igatpuri...and taking so much part here in dhamma discussions... > ******* > Thanks for appreciation. > > metta, > nidhi > > > #73243 From: connie Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:02 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (58) nichiconn dear friends, part 4, Uttaraatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa, on the verse: 180. "Rattiyaa pacchime yaame, tamokkhandha.m padaalayi.m; tevijjaa atha vu.t.thaasi.m, kataa te anusaasanii. 180. In the last watch of the night, I tore asunder the mass of darkness [of ignorance]. Then I stood up in the triple knowledge. Your advice has been taken. RD: Now this Sister, one day, when under Pa.taacaaraa she had established herself in an exercise, went into her own dwelling, and seating herself cross-legged, thought: 'I will not break up this sitting until I have emancipated my heart from all dependence on the AAsavas.' Thus resolving, she incited her intellectual grasp, and gradually clarifying insight as she progressed along the Paths, she attained Arahantship, together with the power of intuition and thorough grasp of the Norm. Thus contemplating nineteen subjects *289 in succession, with the consciousness that 'Now have I done what herein I had to do,' she uttered in her happiness the verses given above, and stretched her limbs. And when the dawn arose, and night brightened into day, she sought the Therii's presence, and repeated her verses. *289 Why 'nineteen' I am unable to explain. They may be bodhipakkhiyaa dhammaa - e.g., the satipa.t.thaanas, the bojjhangas, and the Path = nineteen factors. cy txt: Atha vu.t.thaasinti tevijjaabhaavappattito pacchaa aasanato vu.t.thaasi.m. Ayampi therii ekadivasa.m pa.taacaaraaya theriyaa santike kamma.t.thaana.m sodhetvaa attano vasana.t.thaana.m pavisitvaa palla"nka.m aabhujitvaa nisiidi. "Na taavima.m palla"nka.m bhindissaami, yaava me na anupaadaaya aasavehi citta.m vimuccatii"ti nicchaya.m katvaa sammasana.m aarabhitvaa, anukkamena vipassana.m ussukkaapetvaa maggapa.tipaa.tiyaa abhi~n~naapa.tisambhidaaparivaara.m arahatta.m patvaa ekuunaviisatiyaa paccavekkha.naa~naa.naaya pavattaaya "idaanimhi katakiccaa"ti somanassajaataa imaa gaathaa udaanetvaa paade pasaaresi aru.nuggamanavelaaya.m. Tato sammadeva vibhaataaya rattiyaa theriyaa santika.m upagantvaa imaa gaathaa paccudaahaasi. Tena vutta.m "kataa te anusaasanii"ti-aadi. Sesa.m sabba.m he.t.thaa vuttanayameva. Uttaraatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Pruitt: 180. Then I stood up means: I stood up from my seat after the attainment of the state of possession of the triple knowledge. One day, this therii purified her meditation subject in Theri Pa.taacaaraa's presence, then entered her own dwelling place and sat down cross-legged. She made the determination: "I will not abandon this cross-legged position until my mind is completely released from the taints without clinging." She began mastering [her subject], and in due course, after eagerly practising insight, through [attaining] the paths, one after the other, she attained Arahatship accompanied by direct knowledge and the [four] discriminations. She thought, "Now I have done my duty regarding the nineteen kinds of reviewing knowledge," and full of gladness, she made a solemn utterance of these verses. Then she stretched forth her feet at the time of the rising of the sun. Then, when day had fully dawned, she went to Therii [Pa.taacaaraa] and repeated these verses. Therefore it is said: Your advice has been taken. The meaning of all the rest has been explained already. Here ends the commentary on the verses by Therii Uttaraa. =================== #73244 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) TGrand458@... Hi Nina In a message dated 6/11/2007 1:33:59 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: N: We read in the Discourse pertaining to the Great Sixfold Sense- field (Middle Length Sayings III, no. 149) that the Buddha, while he was staying near SÃ¥vatthÃin the Jeta Grove, said to the monks: Monks, (anyone) not knowing, not seeing eye as it really is, not knowing, not seeing material shapes... visual consciousness... impact on the eye as it really is, and not knowing, not seeing as it really is the feeling, whether pleasant, painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye, is attached to the eye, is attached to material shapes, is attached to visual consciousness, is attached to impact on the eye; and as for that feeling, whether pleasant, painful or neither painful nor pleasant, that arises conditioned by impact on the eye–to that too is he attached. While he, observing the satisfaction, is attached, bound and infatuated, the five khandhas of grasping go on to future accumulation. And his craving, which is connected with again- becoming, accompanied by attachment and delight, finding its pleasure here and there, increases in him. And his physical anxieties increase, and mental anxieties increase, and physical torments increase, and mental torments increase, and physical fevers increase, and mental fevers increase. He experiences anguish of body and anguish of mind. -------- N: The sutta begins: not knowing, not seeing eye as it really is. The khandhas have to be seen as they really are. The khandhas; nama and rupa. Take seeing, it has to be known as it really is. Do we? We mix it with thinking on account of visible object. It is still my seeing, my thinking. ......................................... NEW TG: Yes, I dealt with this with Sarah. The Buddha DOES define what seeing the elements "as they really are " is ... They should be seen as -- impermanent, afflicting, not self. He DOES NOT define "as they really are" as seeing them as "ultimate realities with their own characteristics." Bottom line is, we interpret this passage differently. I feel you are far to literal with specific wording ... then go to the opposite extreme and get far too speculative in your interpretation. Seeing "the eye" (for example) "as it really is" is "seeing" the conditionality nature of the eye. Seeing its conditional nature one sees with insight that it is empty, impermanent, affliction, and no-self. This is seeing it as it really is. The elements are mere "reference points" from which we do our insight work. Otherwise, the mind would not have a "field or reference" in which to see and talk about the impermanence, affliction, no-self. The elements are tools to use, and then to discard ... when the mind is no longer attached to them as "individual things worth grasping after." Your approach actually enhances "their" appearance as "entities" and therefore is counterproductive ... from my point of view. ........................................ Seeing has a charactreistic different from colour. You do not like the word characteristic or character, but call it anything you like. It is that which can be directly experienced. First we have to be sure about charactreistic: it is not theory. Then we shall also understand (I mean not only in theory) that dependent on visible object and eyesense seeing arises. We find this in many suttas. ......................................... NEW TG We find WHAT in many Suttas? I find these types of above compositions of yours to be very vague and misleading. They ARE self serving for your viewpoint. But they MIX what's in the Suttas with your own views and therefore they DO NOT represent what's in the Suttas. It is merely the last fragment starting from "dependent" you find in the Suttas. But the stuff that precedes it is arbitrary. ....................................... ------ NEW TG: Understand conditions is essential. Much more than "just a help." This is the heart of the practice/insight (and science) of Buddha's teaching. ------ N: We have to understand what conditions what and in what way. It is intricate. ............................................. NEW TG: You'll never fully master the details. 10,000 lifetimes from now you'll still be working on the details. At some point one needs to decide ... enough is enough and get down to relinquishing the mind from all conditions. The "details" need only be mastered to the extent necessary to gain full insight into conditionality and then DROP the details ... and everything else. TG OUT Nina. #73245 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) lbidd2 Hi Nina and TG, N: "It is difficult for me to say anything constructive about energy, because I do not see a textual reference that all phenomena (conditioned phenomena) are energies." L: There is apparently one small reference with no commentarial elucidation except by Ledi Sayadaw. See CMA p.293 "The method of conditional relations is discussed with reference to the specific causal efficacy of the conditions." p.294 "The specific causal efficacy of the conditions": This is a free rendering of the cryptic Pali expression aahacca paccaya.t.thiti. Ledi Sayadaw explains the phrase to mean "the special force of the conditions, that is, their efficacy in various ways," and he states that unlike the method of dependent arising, where the mere conditioning state is exhibited, the method of conditional relations is taught in full by exhibiting the special force of the conditions. L: TG might be interested in Tibetan Buddhism. They regard everything as being a manifestation of 5 kinds of energy called the 5 Buddha families. See "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" by Chogyam Trungpa. These energies are worked with in meditation under the guidance of a guru. Talking about them is, at best, "like finger painting". Or, as Dorothy in "The Wizard of Oz" said, "this sure doesn't look like Theravada" ;-)) Larry #73246 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Rob K gave you a good answer. In the case of a dry insight person the > lokuttara citta would be accompanied by samaadhi of the same > intensity as the first jhaana. James: I don't believe that he gave me that answer. I didn't read that answer anywhere in his post. I would like to read more from the source that he quoted. These ancient texts cannot be quoted so briefly and still get the correct meaning. Okay, so if the lokuttara citta of a dry insight person matches the first jhana, what about the other stages of insight? Is supramundane jhana supposed to occur at different intensities or at the same intensity of the first jhana? > The stage of the stream-enterer, sotapanna, is the first stage of > enlightenment. James: Yes, I am aware of that. Yes, lokuttara cittas arise and they experience nibbaana. James: Okay, this is a different subject. I just want to know about the supramundane jhana. Give me all the information you have! ;-)) > Take a rest before your trip. James: No time to take a rest- lots of things to do. As the Vism. points out, traveling is an impediment to jhana because it is such a busy time. Some coffee would not harm. James: Any type of addiction, even to coffee, is harmful. I am much better today, anyway, so don't worry. > Have a good trip and return safely, James: Thank you. I will let you know when will be my last post. > Nina. Metta, James #73247 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:00 pm Subject: Recollection of the Buddha- 6 buddhatrue Hi All, RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS KNOWER OF WORLDS He is the knower of worlds because he has known the world in all ways. For the Blessed One has experienced, known and penetrated the world in all ways as to its individual essence, its arising, its cessation, and the means to its cessation, according as it is said: `Friend, that there is a world's end where one neither is born nor ages nor dies nor passes away nor reappears, which is to be known or seen or reached by travel- that I do not say. Yet I do not say that there is ending of suffering without reaching the world's end. Rather it is in the fathom-long carcass with its perceptions and its consciousness that I make known the world, the arising of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world. `Tis utterly impossible To reach by travel the world's end; But there is no escape from pain Until the world's end has been reached.' `It is a sage, a knower of the worlds, Who gets to the world's end, and it is he Whose Life Divine is lived out to its term; He is at peace who the world's end has known And hopes for neither this world nor the next. Moreover, there are three worlds: the world of formations, the world of beings and the world of location. Herein in the passage `One world: all beings subsist by nutriment' the world of formations is to be understood. In the passage `"The world is eternal" or "The world is not eternal" it is the world of beings. In the passage `As far as moon and sun do circulate Shining and lighting up the [four] directions, Over a thousand times as great a world Your power holds unquestionable sway' It is the world of location. The Blessed One has known that in all ways too. Likewise, because of the words `One world: all beings subsist by nutriment. Two worlds: mentality and materiality. Three worlds: Three kinds of feeling. Four worlds: four kinds of nutriment. Five worlds: five aggregates as objects of clinging. Six worlds: six internal bases. Seven worlds: seven stations of consciousness. Eight worlds: eight worldly states. Nine worlds: nine abodes of beings. Ten worlds: ten bases. Twelve worlds: twelve bases. Eighteen worlds: eighteen elements', this world of formations was known to him in all ways. But he knows all beings' habits, knows their inherent tendencies, knows their temperaments, knows their bents, knows them as with little dust on their eyes and with much dust on their eyes, with keen faculties and with dull faculties, with good behavior and with bad behavior, easy to teach and hard to teach, capable and incapable [of achievement], therefore this world of beings was known to him in all ways. And as the world of beings so also the world of location. For accordingly this [world measures as follows]: One world-sphere is twelve hundred thousand leagues and thirty-four hundred and fifty leagues (1,203,450) in breadth and width. In circumference, however, [The measure of it] all around Is six and thirty hundred thousand And then ten thousand in addition, Four hundred too less half a hundred. (Continuation of description of physical world, using ancient standards) So the world-spheres are infinite in number, the world-elements are infinite, and the Blessed One has experienced, known and penetrated them with the infinite knowledge of the Enlightened Ones. Therefore this world of location was known to him in all ways too. So he is `Knower of worlds' because he has seen the world in all ways. To be continued…RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS INCOMPARABLE LEADER OF MEN TO BE TAMED Metta, James #73248 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:02 pm Subject: Repost -- ENERGY TGrand458@... Hi All One more note on ENERGY... ENERGY is anything with the POWER to AFFECT anything. Hence, all of CONDITIONALITY is ENERGY. TG #73249 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/11/2007 6:30:46 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: L: TG might be interested in Tibetan Buddhism. They regard everything as being a manifestation of 5 kinds of energy called the 5 Buddha families. See "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" by Chogyam Trungpa. These energies are worked with in meditation under the guidance of a guru. Talking about them is, at best, "like finger painting". Or, as Dorothy in "The Wizard of Oz" said, "this sure doesn't look like Theravada" ;-)) Larry Hi Larry Thanks for the post and the info. I couldn't diverge from reading Suttas that long. :-) The Tibetan Buddhism I read some 27 years ago just didn't appeal to me. I'm still perplexed by other folks that are perplexed about energy. LOL No one responded to my short post entitled "energy." I suspect they did not because there was no good way to argue against it. TG #73250 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Larry) - In a message dated 6/11/07 10:15:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > I'm still perplexed by other folks that are perplexed about energy. LOL > No > one responded to my short post entitled "energy." I suspect they did not > because there was no good way to argue against it. > ====================== Well, TG, when you define energy by "ENERGY is anything with the POWER to AFFECT anything. Hence, all of CONDITIONALITY is ENERGY," you have made conditions and energy synonymous. With that definition, what is there to argue? By definitional fiat you have turned "the all" into energy. I don't personally think everything is energy. From the physics perspective, while matter and energy are interconvertable, they are not identical. And what about mental phenomena? While knowing may require energy, I don't think it IS energy, not is recognizing, nor feeling, recollecting. You wish to identify conditionality with energy. But the Buddha said that conditionality is merely "when there is this, there is that," and "without this, not that". It has to do with regularity and objectivity of preoccurrence and co-occurrence. With metta, Howard #73251 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] It might be true or it might not.. rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 6/11/07 8:32:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rjkjp1@... > writes: > > > Dear Howard, > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73088 > > Howard: > > >>No, I'm certain it was jhana. Leigh described it actually as a > > shuttling between the 2nd and 5th jhanas. That actually makes sense, > > given the > > nature > > of the experience. But this happened just that once.>> > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, I'm quite certain. But I don't know it for a fact. To be certain > means only to have no doubt (or negligible doubt). There are lots of things I > am certain of but do not know for a fact. So, I think I'm correct - I never > said that I *know* I entered jhanas. > . Some things we do know, and others we do > not. Of those we do not know, we may have certainty or moderate confidence or > weak belief or no belief at all. > ++++++++ Dear Howard, Ok I didn't realize there was such a gulf between between "I know" and "I'm quite certain" In your original post about Khun Sujin you were upset that she used the term "so". To me what she said looked exactly right, but then I see Dhamma in a different way from you. Robert Sujin: By understanding this, after there are conditions for seeing, like this > moment, it is not the same as the previous one. So after death > -------------------------------------------- Howard: "SO" she says? "SO"? She is reaching a conclusion? This is such spurious "reasoning" on her part. It provides nothing. #73252 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY lbidd2 Hi TG, TG: "ENERGY is anything with the POWER to AFFECT anything. Hence, all of CONDITIONALITY is ENERGY. " L: I think you are venturing into uncharted territory here. Consider an object condition. An unpleasant mental feeling arises with an act of speech as object. To say that the act of speech had the power to cause the arising of an unpleasant mental feeling seems a little strange, especially considering that the same act of speech may have also conditioned a pleasant mental feeling. In what sense does an act of speech have the power to become, later, an object of consciousness, like this email for example? I have seen this called a coincidence, but I can't explain that either. Maybe it's that power (conditionality) is a two way street. The object conditions the consciousness and the consciousness conditions the object. The act of speech would never be an object of consciousness if there weren't a consciousness to notice it. You could write an email and no one might respond. So much for the speech's power. Larry #73253 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and TG) - In a message dated 6/12/07 12:11:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi TG, > > TG: "ENERGY is anything with the POWER to AFFECT anything. Hence, all of > CONDITIONALITY is ENERGY. " > > L: I think you are venturing into uncharted territory here. Consider an > object condition. An unpleasant mental feeling arises with an act of > speech as object. To say that the act of speech had the power to cause > the arising of an unpleasant mental feeling seems a little strange, > especially considering that the same act of speech may have also > conditioned a pleasant mental feeling. ======================= I think this is an important point, Larry. There is a difference between being a condition requisite for an event and being a cause (in the sense of causal force) for it. It is the opinion of David Kalupahana, the Theravadin academic, that the causal theory of Buddhism is not one of causal forces, but of mere this-that conditionality, and I agree with that. A conventional example: A seed is a condition for the sprout. Colloquially we say the seed has the power to sprout, but there is no "causal power" to be found in the seed. Another example: Hearing (and understanding, of course) an insult resulted in anger. There was no hearing energy that produced the anger, but the hearing was a condition for it. With metta, Howard #73254 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY TGrand458@... Hi Larry In a message dated 6/11/2007 10:11:50 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: TG: "ENERGY is anything with the POWER to AFFECT anything. Hence, all of CONDITIONALITY is ENERGY. " L: I think you are venturing into uncharted territory here. Consider an object condition. An unpleasant mental feeling arises with an act of speech as object. To say that the act of speech had the power to cause the arising of an unpleasant mental feeling seems a little strange, ............................... NEW TG: Why? Is not speech a transformation of one type of energy to another? Is the brain able to work without a power source? Are the brains activities "themselves" somehow devoid of energy? This all seems real common sense stuff. ................................ especially considering that the same act of speech may have also conditioned a pleasant mental feeling. ....................................... NEW TG: If you point a flashlight toward a dark object, the results are different then if you point it toward a light object. Conditions that arise do so based on the combination of factors that are "meeting/combining." Just as the different reflective capacities of the objects mentioned above change the conditions...so too, different mentalities (mental configurations) produce different results when they meet the "same object." ............................................. In what sense does an act of speech have the power to become, later, an object of consciousness, like this email for example? ................................................ NEW TG: Look at all the energies that went into transferring the thoughts in your mind to thoughts in my mind. They are uncountable when you factor in all the supporting conditions. Every process along the way was an energy transformation. Shall we mention a few...? Sun, earth, gravity, orbits, rockets, cars, boats, plants, animals, satellites, electrical power plants, cables, houses, cities, utility companies, computer companies, etc, etc, etc. More fundamentally ... The Four Great Elements dynamically interacting. From the day the Buddha spoke his discourses, to this very moment, it is all energy that has continued a chain of transmission from that day to this very moment. If there was ever a break in that energy chain, the teachings would be lost...until someone rediscovered them. ................................................ I have seen this called a coincidence, but I can't explain that either. Maybe it's that power (conditionality) is a two way street. The object conditions the consciousness and the consciousness conditions the object. The act of speech would never be an object of consciousness if there weren't a consciousness to notice it. You could write an email and no one might respond. So much for the speech's power. Larry ....................................................... NEW TG: We're having this discussion because you used your energy to write this e-mail. Glad you did. That energy "affected" my mind and "motivated" me to use energy to respond. TG OUT #73255 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY ksheri3 Helllooooooooo Larry, and TG, I'll take the bait on that one. I like TG's 'thought' that conditionality is energy since energy is anything with the power to affect another thing. (One of my favorite characteristics) BUT the state of "conditionality BEING energy" is momentary just as the citta arises and falls in the same breath Larry poses the question that you, TG, write a post and nobody responds to it, which is pretty juvenile but it happens. If you know that these forces are very subtle then you'll know that the post did "contact" another person and is working it's magik, you'll just have to open your eyes and ears to see or hear the reply, no? I'm a known practioner of magik since 1981 so I know that people don't want to get to close to me, as Jimmy Page once said "don't get too close, you might catch it" but simply because they're being cautious and prudent (as GHWB was so fixed on) doesn't mean that the post isn't working it's magik, isn't creating an effect on another thing. Yea, if it wasn't for the consciousness then there wouldn't be much of anything. Do ya think that the Buddha is conscious at this very second? What constitutes the consciousness of the Buddha if the Buddha is conscious? Way back in the early-mid 80s when I was a member of the Theosophical Society in Wheaton I studied at their Olcott Library almost every day which is where I first began practicing Pranayama I ws focused on Golden Dawn material, practices, ceremonials, etc, and I ran into a piece, I forgot the name of the author, either Fortune or Regardie, but they posed the question "Is god conscious that god is god". Speech's power? Did I say anything? lol toodles, colette #73256 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) TGrand458@... Hi Howard Like the challenge! In a message dated 6/11/2007 8:45:09 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > I'm still perplexed by other folks that are perplexed about energy. LOL > No > one responded to my short post entitled "energy." I suspect they did not > because there was no good way to argue against it. > ====================== Well, TG, when you define energy by "ENERGY is anything with the POWER to AFFECT anything. Hence, all of CONDITIONALITY is ENERGY," you have made conditions and energy synonymous. ................................. NEW TG: I don't think "I" have made them synonymous. They ARE synonymous. How could they not be? ................................. With that definition, what is there to argue? ...................................... NEW TG: That's what I was trying to find out! ;-) I figured folks couldn't argue with the ridiculously obvious. ............................................ By definitional fiat you have turned "the all" into energy. ....................................... NEW TG: And in what way is "the all" not energy? ...................................... I don't personally think everything is energy. From the physics perspective, while matter and energy are interconvertable, they are not identical. ............................................. NEW TG: They're both energies. That's my thesis. My thesis is not that "all energies are identical." Lets see what Dr. Einstein says... “There is no essential distinction between mass and energy. Energy has mass and mass represents energy. Instead of two conservation laws, we have only one, that of mass-energy.â€? (Albert Einstein . . . Einstein and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings, pg. 102) “It followed from the special theory of relativity that mass and energy are both but different manifestations of the same thing – a somewhat unfamiliar conception for the average mind. Furthermore, the equation E is equal to m c-squared, in which energy is put equal to mass, multiplied by the square of the velocity of light, showed that very small amounts of mass may be converted into very large amounts of energy and vice versa. The mass and energy were in fact equivalent, according to the formula mentioned before. This was demonstrated by Cockcroft and Walton in 1932, experimentally.â€? (Albert Einstein . . . from the soundtrack of the film, Atomic Physics. Copyright J. Arthur Rank Organization, Ltd., 1948. Image Brown Brothers, Sterling, PA.) NOTE: "mass and energy were in fact equivalent." ................................................... And what about mental phenomena? While knowing may require energy, I don't think it IS energy ................................................... NEW TG: I think it is. :-) If conditionality is going to be seen well, one needs to also see how the mind is "moved" by physical forces as well as mental forces. Physical energy transfers into mental energy and vice versa. .................................................. , not is recognizing, nor feeling, recollecting. .................................................. NEW TG: Energy, energy, energy. .................................................. You wish to identify conditionality with energy. But the Buddha said that conditionality is merely "when there is this, there is that," and "without this, not that". It has to do with regularity and objectivity of preoccurrence and co-occurrence. ...................................................... NEW TG: Not sure about the "pre-occurrence." Not sure how this passage proves the point of discussion. I would look at the formula of D.O. like this... When this energy is, that supported state is upheld. With the arising of supporting energies, a supported state arises. When this energy is not, there is nothing to support a supported state. With the ceasing of this supporting energy, the supported state, depending on that energy for support...ceases. TG OUT #73257 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:30 pm Subject: Re: what is sati kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wisdomcompassion" wrote: > > Hi Ken, > > > > There is another way of knowing anatta, and that is the gradual way. > > > > and it is not > > until the final stage that there is direct knowledge of anatta. <. . .> > N: you explained it very nicely ken. I fully agree with you here. and > this is actually what i was doing, though it surely refines my > understanding and my practice as well. Thanks for explaining me that. Hi Nidhi, I'm glad you see it that way too. However, we still don't understand each other with regard to your 'anatta experience.' I am saying it could only have been at the level of thinking, but you seem quite sure it was direct knowledge. And yet we both agree that direct knowledge of anatta comes only at the end of the mundane path (satipatthana). ----------------- KH: >> So, although I know what you mean when you say you have experienced > anatta in meditation (and most of us have had similar experiences) I > think you must agree it is not the same experience that is reached > via the gradual method. N: > Oh surely it was gradual method. I think time must not be calculated in terms of years or births, but in terms of moments of persistence, diligence, faith and interest and state of non-desire of result. I consider myself walking on this gradual path. But one difference of opinion is there; I meditate. ---------------- I see. But are you saying your practice (of meditation) has accelerated you to the end of the mundane path - to where you are about to become a Stream Enterer - or are you saying that it somehow gives you a glimpse (a preview) of what is to come? ----------------------- N: > In that what i do is to understand realities as they arise; though i do it with eyes closed. Initally i used to do aanapan, but now I use it only when required and when i go to retreat. (it must be understood that usage of word 'I' is in conventional sense). I prefer to do something as suggested by suttas. So far it has been nice. ------------------------- A great deal of misinformation (about the suttas) has been spread in modern times. The effect has been that people believe the suttas contain the instructions for some kind of intentional vipassana meditation. In fact, no such instructions are to be found. According to the suttas, insight arises only by conditions, and the only conditions for the arising of insight are "the gradual practice" that we have been talking about. There is no intensive practice that somehow speeds the process up. -------------------------------------- <. . .> N: > yes, you have nicely worded what i was trying to say.I have a couple of question for you; What do you think how defilements are eradicated? Are you(conventional usage) eradicating defilements? what KS says about that? My intention is to learn and refine my understanding, if i can, otherwise I like to share what i understand. --------------------------- Defilements can be either abstained from, suppressed or eradicated. I think it is fair to say that all forms of kusala consciousness *abstain* from akusala. However, this abstention lasts for only one citta (or one process of cittas), after which akusala cittas can again occur. Jhana (the highest form of kusala apart from vipassana) *suppresses* akusala. It can last for a long time, but it is an extremely advanced form of concentration that blocks out sense-door consciousness and maintains a string of kusala mind-door cittas fixed on a single object. Satipatthana (mundane insight) weakens the defilements to such an extent that they can no longer arise in extreme forms. It leads to supramundane insight, which finishes the process off by *eradicating* defilements completely. Corrections are welcome but I think I've got that approximately right. :-) Ken H #73258 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY TGrand458@... Hi Colette In a message dated 6/11/2007 10:58:47 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: Helllooooooooo Larry, and TG, I'll take the bait on that one. I like TG's 'thought' that conditionality is energy since energy is anything with the power to affect another thing. (One of my favorite characteristics) BUT the state of "conditionality BEING energy" is momentary just as the citta arises and falls in the same breath ............................................. NEW TG: Based on the structure of conditions/energies, some states move faster in relation to others...from our perspective. ................................................ Larry poses the question that you, TG, write a post and nobody responds to it, which is pretty juvenile but it happens. If you know that these forces are very subtle then you'll know that the post did "contact" another person and is working it's magik, you'll just have to open your eyes and ears to see or hear the reply, no? I'm a known practioner of magik since 1981 so I know that people don't want to get to close to me, as Jimmy Page once said "don't get too close, you might catch it" but simply because they're being cautious and prudent (as GHWB was so fixed on) doesn't mean that the post isn't working it's magik, isn't creating an effect on another thing. ...................................... NEW TG: I think I understand what you mean. The "contact" is affecting minds even if there is no response to the post. That's in fact why I make such posts. .................................................... Yea, if it wasn't for the consciousness then there wouldn't be much of anything. Do ya think that the Buddha is conscious at this very second? .............................................. NEW TG: Trick question? Otherwise ... No, not conscious. But, a calculation on my part based on the overriding Sutta teachings. ................................................. What constitutes the consciousness of the Buddha if the Buddha is conscious? Way back in the early-mid 80s when I was a member of the Theosophical Society in Wheaton I studied at their Olcott Library almost every day which is where I first began practicing Pranayama I ws focused on Golden Dawn material, practices, ceremonials, etc, and I ran into a piece, I forgot the name of the author, either Fortune or Regardie, but they posed the question "Is god conscious that god is god". Speech's power? Did I say anything? lol ......................................... NEW TG: I think I followed about half of your post. That's a record for me. ;-) TG OUT #73259 From: han tun Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollection of the Buddha- 6 hantun1 Dear James, Nina, Sarah and All, I would be most grateful to know more about “the world of formations” (Sankhaara Loka). In the text, I found the following: -------------------- Herein in the passage `One world: all beings subsist by nutriment' the world of formations is to be understood. Likewise, because of the words `One world: all beings subsist by nutriment. Two worlds: mentality and materiality. Three worlds: three kinds of feeling. Four worlds: four kinds of nutriment. Five worlds: five aggregates as objects of clinging. Six worlds: six internal bases. Seven worlds: seven stations of consciousness. Eight worlds: eight worldly states. Nine worlds: nine abodes of beings. Ten worlds: ten bases. Twelve worlds: twelve bases. Eighteen worlds: eighteen elements', this world of formations was known to him in all ways. -------------------- I do not quite understand what it is meant by the above passage. Can someone kindly elaborate further on this, please? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #73260 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY TGrand458@... Hi Howard and Larry In a message dated 6/12/2007 12:19:15 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, Larry (and TG) - In a message dated 6/12/07 12:11:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, _LBIDD@..._ (mailto:LBIDD@...) writes: > Hi TG, > > TG: "ENERGY is anything with the POWER to AFFECT anything. Hence, all of > CONDITIONALITY is ENERGY. " > > L: I think you are venturing into uncharted territory here. Consider an > object condition. An unpleasant mental feeling arises with an act of > speech as object. To say that the act of speech had the power to cause > the arising of an unpleasant mental feeling seems a little strange, > especially considering that the same act of speech may have also > conditioned a pleasant mental feeling. ======================= I think this is an important point, Larry. There is a difference between being a condition requisite for an event and being a cause (in the sense of causal force) for it. It is the opinion of David Kalupahana, the Theravadin academic, that the causal theory of Buddhism is not one of causal forces, but of mere this-that conditionality, and I agree with that. ...................................... NEW TG: "This-that" conditionality ? But not causal forces? Does put the "magic" back into life it would seem. ;-) I don't know what "this-that conditionality" means devoid of having causal force. A "Kalupahana original" perhaps? BTW, Kalupahana had told my teacher many years ago that he had disregarded much of his own writings. Don't know where he stands today or how old the stuff you are referring to is. ........................................ A conventional example: A seed is a condition for the sprout. Colloquially we say the seed has the power to sprout, but there is no "causal power" to be found in the seed. ........................................... NEW TG: Don't know why you think that. Sure the seed has the power....along with heat, water, air, and earth. The seed has the power to direct these powers configurations...as well as "its own." How could anything that arise NOT have causal power??? Seriously, I'm scratching my head on that notion. ............................................. Another example: Hearing (and understanding, of course) an insult resulted in anger. There was no hearing energy that produced the anger, but the hearing was a condition for it. .................................................. NEW TG: Sound energy affecting the "ear instrument"...resulted in bio-electrical energy, which generated audible consciousness. The mind, pre-conditioned by energies (experiences/memories) is configured into patterns that interpreted the sounds as insulting; and through various delusions, took it personally. Its just "one thing moving another"....in multifaceted ways. These arguments against energy just keep making "the energy case" IMO. So far, nothing has been in anyway convincing, in demonstrating that any aspect of conditionality, is not energies interacting. You even played the "Kalupahana card." ;-) I'd love to have you folks show me I'm wrong, but in this case I don't see a case so far. TG OUT #73261 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Advice to a recent widow - Part II sarahprocter... Hi Rob M, I find your friend's letter and heartfelt feelings very moving and poignant. Again, I appreciate your assistance. I think it's good to encourage your friend to write and share her feelings as she's doing. It's helpful for us to reflect on too. I'm not an expert either and need guidance as well. However, these are a few thoughts that come to mind. Gently, you might stress that as we learn in Buddhism, the real cause of sorrow and grief is attachment and particularly, attachment to ourselves and our own feelings. In effect we make a hell for ourselves by that 'chasing something that is impossible to catch'. It's good that she appreciated that phrase. What would her husband wish for her? Clearly, not to be wretched and to dwell with such anguish. Perhaps out of respect for him, she might reflect more on his virtues and the blessings she enjoyed from their happy marriage. Many, many couples are not so fortunate in this regard and are left with nightmare memories instead. Perhaps you can touch on 'momentary death' if you feel it appropriate. Actually, we face death at each moment - each experience is gone never to return. There are bound to be happy and unhappy feelings. Life is suffering because no matter what the circumstances, the happy feelings never last. It's the understanding that can help us through the most difficult of times, but it takes a lot of patience because we torture ourselves by thinking about our losses. In fact, even when we living happily and have a partner, in Buddhism we learn that we are always alone. It seems we can share the world with another person, but in fact the 6 worlds appearing through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body-sense and mind can never be shared with another. So, really, sooner or later, we all have to learn to live alone. Sometimes at the most shocking of times (such as now for your friend) or when facing a life-threatening illness, we may actually appreciate the truths of suffering, impermanence and living alone better. At such times we are not intoxicated by the joys of happy experiences. So in her great grief, there actually can be a blessing - the blessing of wise reflection and understanding which will help her to appreciate better how we all have to live alone eventually. When we appreciate too how momentary the feelings and other aspects of life are, we'll see that even grief and unpleasant feelings don't last. In our mind, we may feel depressed all day, but actually, there are still so many moments of seeing pleasant objects, hearing pleasant sounds, feeling joy about past happy times together and so on. Nothing at all lasts longer than a finger-snap, not even the misery. Vism V111, 39 "In the ultimate sense the life-moment of living beings is extremely short, being only as much as the occurrence of a single conscious moment." If there is no thought now about the unhappy circumstances, where are they? , "Just as a chariot wheel, when it is rolling, rolls (that is, touches the ground) only on one point of (the circumference of) its tyre, and, when it is at rest, rests only on one point, so too, the life of living beings lasts only for a single conscious moment." So everything we hold dear, the suffering, the wishes to end life and so on, all depend on the one single conscious moment now. It's bound to be difficult and painful for a long time, but gradually she can begin to accept the circumstances and appreciate the suffering in such thinking and grief is only momentary too. The only refuge in life is in the development of wisdom. I really wish your friend courage. Thoughts of dying young and dreaming about being re-united with her husband soon will not help or provide any refuge at all as you've tried to gently show her. I hope you saw my other note. Of course, if you think it appropriate and she'd like to join us here as well, we'd make her very welcome. She doesn't need to be a Buddhist or know anything about Buddhism! Please keep sharing your correspondence, Rob. Metta, Sarah SN15:3 Tears (Assu Sutta), B. Bodhi transl: "At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, this samsara is without discoverable beginning. A first point is not discerned of beings roaming and wandering on hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving. What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered on through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable - this or the water in the four great oceans?" ".......The stream of tears that you have shed as you roamed and wandered through this long course, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable - this alone is more than the water in the four great oceans. For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the death of a mother; as you have experienced this, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable, the stream of tears that you have shed is more than the water in the four great oceans. "For a long time, bhikkhus, you have experienced the death of a father....brother...sister...son...daughter....the loss of relatives....the loss of wealth...loss through illness; as you have experienced this, weeping and wailing because of being united with the disagreeable and separated from the agreeable, the stream of tears that you have shed is more than the water in the four great oceans. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, this samsara is without discoverable beginning...It is enough to experience revulsion towards all formations, enough to become dispassionate towards them, enough to be liberated from them." --- robmoult wrote: > Thank you so much for your kind reply. I am very impressed by your > Buddhism. It is good to know that there is life after life. > > If every person is born again after death, are they going to be born > again as a human being or animal or nature (like wind or rain)? If > this is what is going to happen to everybody, how can I meet XXX > again up there someday? It seems to me that it would be almost > impossible to see him again unless I die soon. > > "Suffering is happening because I am chasing after something that is > impossible to catch ============================ #73262 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollection of the Buddha- 6 buddhatrue Hi Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear James, Nina, Sarah and All, > > I would be most grateful to know more about "the world > of formations" (Sankhaara Loka). In the text, I found > the following: > I do not quite understand what it is meant by the > above passage. > Can someone kindly elaborate further on this, please? The footnote reads: To take what is not self-evident in this paragraph, three kinds of feeling are pleasant, painful and neither-painful-nor-pleasant. Four kinds of nutriment are physical nutriment, contact, mental volition, and consciousness. The seven states of consciousness are: (1) sense sphere, (2) Brahma's Retinue, (3) Abhassara (Brahma-world) Deities, (4) Subhakinna (Brahma-world) Deities, (5) base consisting of boundless space, (6) base consisting of boundless consciousness (7) base consisting of nothingness. The eight worldly states are gain, fame, blame, pleasure, and their opposites. The nine abodes of beings: (1)-(4) as in stations of consciousness, (5) unconscious beings, (6)-(9) the four immaterial states. The ten bases are eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, visible object, sound, odour, flavour, tangible object. Metta, James #73263 From: han tun Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollection of the Buddha- 6 hantun1 Dear James, Thank you very much for your kind clarification. Respectfully, Han #73264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:26 am Subject: Recollection of the Buddha- 6 nilovg Dear Han, This is in the co. to the Kuddhaka Patha, paramatthajotikaa, Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning (PTS). But not all is contained in here, for some I need other commentaries. -------------------- Herein in the passage `One world: all beings subsist by nutriment' the world of formations is to be understood. -------- N: The Co: < He did so [employing] the mode of teaching in terms of a person. > Further on: We have to take ,nutriment in the sense of condiitons> is explained in the Co. Thus sankhaara is here: all conditioned dhammas, in this text denoted by all creatures, in ametaphorical sense. We see that detachment is taught here. The text points to the true goal of the teachings. This goes for all these classifications, otherwise they are not beneficial. ----------- Two worlds: mentality and materiality. -------- The co explains nama and rupa and then quotes A. V, 51) pointing to dispassion. Through contemplating anattaa self view is abanadoned, Seven variations are mentioned. 1. As to diverse in body and in perception, these are humans, some devas (of the six classes which are of the sensesphere), and some spirits in lower realms. Then other variations are mentioned which pertain to different births as a result of different stages of jhaana. 2. Those born in the ruupa-brahma plane as the result of the first jhaana are diverse in body but identical in sa~n~naa. Thus, they are born with the ruupaavacara vipaakacitta that is the result of the first jhaana. Their bodies are different and their lifespan is different according as their attainment of jhaana was limited, medium or superior. 3. Those born as the result of the second and third jhaana are the same in body, but different in sa~n~naa. An example is the gods of streaming radiance, devaa aabhassaraa. 4. Born as result of the fourth jhaana. They are uniform in body and sa~n~naa. 5, 6 and 7 are respectively birth in the aruupa-brahma planes as the result of the aruupa jhanas that have as subject: space is infinite, consciousness is infinite and ‘there is nothing’. These are born without ruupa. ----------- Eight worlds: eight worldly states. ------- N: The eight loka dhamma of gain and loss, praise and blame, etc. Very important to remember these, they occur because of kamma and we have no power over them. -------- Nine worlds: nine abodes of beings. ----------- N: N: The abodes of beings are similar to the stations of consciousness, but as eighth is added: birth as result of the fourth aruupa jhaana: the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception. Also is included: asa~n~na satta, who has ruupa-pa.tisandhi, birth without citta. It reminds us of the varieties of births, as results of kamma that also has many varieties. ------- Ten worlds: ten bases. Twelve worlds: twelve bases. Eighteen worlds: eighteen elements', this world of formations was known to him in all ways. -------------------- N: Elements, very important to remember that our life is elements. (See my ADL for classification) Have to rush now to the therapist. It will be painful: worldly conditions, elements! Nina. #73265 From: han tun Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollection of the Buddha- 6 hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your detailed and comprehensive explanation. Respectfully, Han #73266 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - > > I don't personally think everything is energy. From the physics > perspective, while matter and energy are interconvertable, they are not > identical. > ............................................. > > NEW TG: They're both energies. That's my thesis. My thesis is not that > "all energies are identical." Lets see what Dr. Einstein says... > > > “There is no essential distinction between mass and energy. Energy has > mass > and mass represents energy. Instead of two conservation laws, we have > only > one, that of mass-energy.â€? > (Albert Einstein . . . Einstein and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings, pg. 102) ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Then they both reduce to mass-energy. Why say they are both energy? Why not both mass? Orwhy not the reduction to mass-energy? And, anyway, what of mind? Isenergy a form, or "the" fundamental form of rupa, and mentality just a bi-product of that? That'sa fine perspective for a materialist Dhamma, but I think the Buddha didn't consider mentality to be a form of or bi-product of matter or energy. Basically, it seems to me that you are sayng it's all "stuff", and you are just taking one form of that "stuff", what physicists call energy, and calling it all by that name. Why not call it all "the all"? --------------------------------------------------- > > > “It followed from the special theory of relativity that mass and energy are > > both but different manifestations of the same thing – a somewhat unfamiliar > > conception for the average mind. Furthermore, the equation E is equal to > m > c-squared, in which energy is put equal to mass, multiplied by the square > of > the velocity of light, showed that very small amounts of mass may be > converted > into very large amounts of energy and vice versa. The mass and energy were > > in fact equivalent, according to the formula mentioned before. This was > demonstrated by Cockcroft and Walton in 1932, experimentally.â€? > (Albert Einstein . . . from the soundtrack of the film, Atomic Physics. > Copyright J. Arthur Rank Organization, Ltd., 1948. Image Brown Brothers, > Sterling, PA.) > > NOTE: "mass and energy were in fact equivalent." --------------------------------------------- Howard: I already agreed that what the physicists call matter and energy are interconvertable (if that's a word). That does not make them identical, however. As an analogy: Ice and water are interconvertable, but they have different natures. One crystalline solid,and the other fluid. In any case, mntality isn't physicality. > > ................................................... > > > And what about mental phenomena? While knowing may require energy, I don't > think it IS energy > ................................................... > > NEW TG: I think it is. :-) If conditionality is going to be seen well, > one needs to also see how the mind is "moved" by physical forces as well as > > mental forces. Physical energy transfers into mental energy and vice > versa. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I never said that there isn't "mental energy", nor that phsicality doesn't effect mentality and vice-versa. I say, however, that mental operations, are not identical with energy. Simply calling everything by the same name doesn't change reality. Energy isonvolved with all mental operations,but they are not themselves energy. They are activities. Recognizing, remembering, concentrating, knowing, feeling, loving, and hating are all mentalactivities that *require* energy, but they are not energy. Look, I'm a radical phenomenalist, but I don't say that knowing and known are one and the same. They are mutually dependent, but not identical. Similarly, there is energy and what is "moved" by energy.They are mutually dependent, but not identical. -------------------------------------------------- > > .................................................. > > > > , not is recognizing, nor feeling, recollecting. > .................................................. > > NEW TG: Energy, energy, energy. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: No, no, no. ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- > > .................................................. > > > > You wish to identify conditionality with energy. But the Buddha said > that conditionality is merely "when there is this, there is that," and > "without > this, not that". It has to do with regularity and objectivity of > preoccurrence and co-occurrence. > > > ...................................................... > > NEW TG: Not sure about the "pre-occurrence." Not sure how this passage > proves the point of discussion. > > I would look at the formula of D.O. like this... > > When this energy is, that supported state is upheld. With the arising of > supporting energies, a supported state arises. When this energy is not, > there > is nothing to support a supported state. With the ceasing of this > supporting > energy, the supported state, depending on that energy for support...ceases. ---------------------------------------- Howard: You are simply attaching the name 'energy' to everything. The word 'it' would serve as well. --------------------------------------- ======================= With metta, Howard #73267 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Larry) - In a message dated 6/12/07 3:06:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard and Larry > > > In a message dated 6/12/2007 12:19:15 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Hi, Larry (and TG) - > > In a message dated 6/12/07 12:11:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > _LBIDD@..._ (mailto:LBIDD@...) > writes: > > >Hi TG, > > > >TG: "ENERGY is anything with the POWER to AFFECT anything. Hence, all of > >CONDITIONALITY is ENERGY. " > > > >L: I think you are venturing into uncharted territory here. Consider an > >object condition. An unpleasant mental feeling arises with an act of > >speech as object. To say that the act of speech had the power to cause > >the arising of an unpleasant mental feeling seems a little strange, > >especially considering that the same act of speech may have also > >conditioned a pleasant mental feeling. > ======================= > I think this is an important point, Larry. There is a difference > between being a condition requisite for an event and being a cause (in the > sense of > causal force) for it. It is the opinion of David Kalupahana, the Theravadin > > academic, that the causal theory of Buddhism is not one of causal forces, > but > of mere this-that conditionality, and I agree with that. > ...................................... > > NEW TG: "This-that" conditionality ? But not causal forces? Does put the > > "magic" back into life it would seem. ;-) I don't know what "this-that > conditionality" means devoid of having causal force. A "Kalupahana > original" > perhaps? > -------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I think a Buddha original. ;-) Looking for causal forces as opposed to mere conditons is a kind of substantialism, IMO. ------------------------------------------- BTW, Kalupahana had told my teacher many years ago that he had > > disregarded much of his own writings. Don't know where he stands today or > how old > the stuff you are referring to is. > > ........................................ > > > > A conventional > example: A seed is a condition for the sprout. Colloquially we say the seed > > has the > power to sprout, but there is no "causal power" to be found in the seed. > ........................................... > > NEW TG: Don't know why you think that. Sure the seed has the > power....along with heat, water, air, and earth. The seed has the power to > direct these > powers configurations...as well as "its own." ------------------------------------------- Howard: That is metaphor. If a person asked a farmer where in the seed lies the power to sprout, the farmer would look at him as he would look at a two-headed calf. -------------------------------------------- > > How could anything that arise NOT have causal power??? Seriously, I'm > scratching my head on that notion. -------------------------------------------- Howard: TG, how could not things have self?!!! LOL! Same sort of question. Conditonality is one of the Dhammic ideas that is a "Buddha original". It is different. It is sui generis. ---------------------------------------------- > > ............................................. > > > > > Another example: Hearing (and understanding, of course) an insult resulted > in anger. > There was no hearing energy that produced the anger, but the hearing was a > condition for it. > .................................................. > > NEW TG: Sound energy affecting the "ear instrument"...resulted in > bio-electrical energy, which generated audible consciousness. The mind, > pre-conditioned by energies (experiences/memories) is configured into > patterns that > interpreted the sounds as insulting; and through various delusions, took it > > personally. Its just "one thing moving another"....in multifaceted ways. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: All conditionality. When there was this, there is that, and then that, and then that. There is no transmission to Howard of the volitional energy involved in your writing this post. The volition was that was involved in the writing, etc,etc. When all the requisite conditions were in place, the result occurred. Positing causal forces is analogous to erstwhile physicists positing aether. ----------------------------------------------- > > These arguments against energy just keep making "the energy case" IMO. So > far, nothing has been in anyway convincing, in demonstrating that any > aspect > of conditionality, is not energies interacting. > > You even played the "Kalupahana card." ;-) I'd love to have you folks > show me I'm wrong, but in this case I don't see a case so far. > > TG OUT > > .................................................. > > > > > With metta, > Howard > > ========================= With energetic metta, Howard #73268 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY, half way there. ksheri3 Good Morning TG, Now it's my turn to try to follow your line of thought. Below, lets start with electricity, no? > NEW TG: Based on the structure of conditions/energies, some states move > faster in relation to others...from our perspective. > > ................................................ colette: it's an electrical current is all I'm saying but you pose the thought that currents move at different speeds. Everything is in motion, vibrating. Different currents travel at different speeds meaning that a current that catches a person and takes away the ability of that person to bond with any other current does so because it traveled faster to that person than the other current. See chemical bonding. --------------------------- > > NEW TG: I think I understand what you mean. The "contact" is affecting > minds even if there is no response to the post. That's in fact why I make such > posts. > > .................................................... > colette: exactly, I can spice up any dessert or a main coarse with whatever chemicals I choose and the diners can eat the food, contact has been made. Now, they don't have to compliment me on the flavor of the meal that I prepared for them and gratify my ego for my expertise if they don't aren't aware of the chemicals they've eaten, back in the 70s making "brownies" or we can go to Socrates and his favorite drink, Hemlock, or go to the CIA and the testing they did on LSD back in the 50s. I know my posts work, therefore I know what I'm looking for when I breeze through the msg. board. ----------------------------- > > NEW TG: Trick question? Otherwise ... No, not conscious. colette: I haven't run into it yet, but I know it's a trick question and it tricks me all the time, but you may be wrong suggesting that the Buddha is not conscious since you must define what constitutes consciousness and somehow you'll have to prove that the Buddha does not possess those characteristics at this second. I bring to the table here, some Western values and that damn Svabhava thing implying a soul, an Atman. -------------------------- But, a > calculation on my part based on the overriding Sutta teachings. > colette: I don't have enough background to have that kindof opinion yet with the Suttas I just know that they perplex me in a lot of places. -=------------------ toodles, colette #73269 From: "robmoult" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Advice to a recent widow - Part II robmoult Hi Sarah, Some really good stuff in your reply. I particularly liked the seciton: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > What would her husband wish for her? Clearly, not to be wretched and to > dwell with such anguish. Perhaps out of respect for him, she might reflect > more on his virtues and the blessings she enjoyed from their happy > marriage. Many, many couples are not so fortunate in this regard and are > left with nightmare memories instead. > ===== If she does not write back to me in the next couple of days, I will take the initiative and write back to her and I will include this idea (and perhaps some others of yours as well). Thanks so much for your advice. Metta, Rob M :-) #73270 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:02 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 2, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Citta is the leader in experiencing an object, and the cetasikas (contact and the other accompanying cetasikas) perform each their own function while they experience the same object. The cetasikas could not arise without citta, citta is their reason or cause. There are six pairs of åyatanas, each pair comprising an inner åyatana and an outer åyatana. The five sense-bases and the manåyatana are the inner åyatanas, the sense objects and dhammåyatana (mental objects) are the outer åyatanas. Cetasikas arise together with the citta, but they are included in dhammåyatana which is an outer åyatana [1]. Dhammåyatana are the objects which can be experienced only through the mind-door. Cetasikas such as contact or feeling can be experienced only through the mind-door. The “Visuddhimagga” (XV, 15) states about the åyatanas which are conditioned realities [2]: As to how to be seen: here, however, all formed (conditioned) bases should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. For they do not come from anywhere previous to their rise, nor do they go anywhere after their fall. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence, and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery (being exercisable over them) since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between the past and the future. Consequently they should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. Likewise they should be regarded as incurious and uninterested. For it does not occur to the eye and the visible object, etc., “Ah, that consciousness might arise from our concurrence.” And as door, physical basis, and object, they have no curiosity about, or interest in, arousing consciousness. On the contrary, it is the absolute rule that eye-consciousness, etc., come into being with the union of eye with visible object, and so on. So they should be regarded as incurious and uninterested. Furthermore, the internal åyatanas should be regarded as an empty village because they are devoid of lastingness, pleasure and self; and the external ones as village-raiding robbers because they raid the internal ones. And this is said: “Bhikkhus, the eye is harassed by agreeable and disagreeable objects” (Kindred Sayings, IV, 175). -------------- 1. Just as the eye, the ear and the other sense organs are bases for the experience of the sense objects which are external åyatanas, is the citta the base or foundation for the cetasikas which are external åyatanas. Not all cetasikas arise with each citta. When the citta is akusala, akusala cetasikas accompany it. When the citta is sobhana, beautiful, sobhana cetasikas accompany it. 2. Thus, this does not pertain to nibbåna, the unconditioned reality. ------------ Nina. #73271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:15 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 3, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, We should find out to which objects we give preponderance. We should know whether they condition kusala citta or lobha-múla-citta. It is important to realize in which way objects can condition different cittas. When lobha-múla-citta arises the object which it experiences may condition that citta only by way of object-condition or it may condition it by way of object-predominance as well. At different moments different conditions play their part in our life. Kusala can condition wrong view or conceit by way of object-predominance- condition. We may attach great importance to the notion of “my kusala” with wrong view. Or we may have a high esteem of our good deeds with conceit, while we compare ourselves with others. When we are attached to colourful pictures our attachment may be object-predominance-condition for lobha-múla-cittas; we may be quite absorbed in our enjoyment and forgetful of the development of right understanding. At other moments we may devote time to the study and the consideration of the Dhamma so that right understanding can develop. The Dhamma we hear may condition mahå-kusala citta accompanied by paññå by way of object-predominance-condition. We read in the “Lesser Discourse on the Destruction of Craving”(Middle Length Sayings I, no. 37) that Sakka, lord of the devas, had inclinations to mental development, but when there were conditions to enjoy sense- pleasures, he was absorbed in those. We read that Sakka asked the Buddha, who was staying near Savatthí in the Eastern Monastery, to what extent a monk comes to be completely freed by the destruction of craving. The Buddha answered: As to this, lord of devas, a monk comes to hear: ”It is not fitting that there should be inclination towards any (mental-physical) conditions [1]." If, lord of devas, a monk comes to hear this, that “It is not fitting that there should be any inclination towards any (mental-physical) conditions”, he knows all the conditions thoroughly, he knows all the conditions accurately; by knowing all the conditions accurately, whatever feeling he feels, pleasant or painful or neither painful nor pleasant, he abides viewing impermanence, he abides viewing dispassion, he abides viewing stopping, he abides viewing renunciation in regard to those feelings. We then read that when he is so abiding he grasps after nothing in the world and attains arahatship. Sakka rejoiced in what the Buddha had said and after having given thanks he vanished. ---------- 1. In the “Papañcasúdaní “, the commentary to this sutta, it is stated that these are the five khandhas, the twelve sense-fields (åyåtanas), the eighteen elements. ----------- Nina. #73272 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollection of the Buddha- 6 nilovg Hi James, thank you for this posting. I had not seen it when I answered Han. The end of the world seems so far but the body and consciousness, rupa and nama, are right here. The text points to the goal: by developing more understanding of what is so near the noble Truths can be realized. Nina. Op 12-jun-2007, om 3:00 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Rather it is in the > fathom-long carcass with its perceptions and its consciousness that I > make known the world, the arising of the world, the cessation of the > world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world. #73273 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment nilovg Hi James, You ask: what about the other stages of insight? I think you mean: the stages of enlightenment. This issue pertains only to lokuttara citta. Thus, for those who did not develop jhana and attain enlightenment there are eight types of lokuttara cittas, one pair (path- consciousness and its vipaaka the fruition-consciousness) for each of the four stages. In all those cases the accompanying concentration is of the same intensity as the concentration in the first stage of mundane jhaanacitta. For those who developed mundane jhana the lokuttara cittas can be accompanied by concentration that is of the degree of each of the five stages of jhana, depending on the individual. Thus, in that case we can count instead of eight lokuttara cittas, five times eight =forty lokuttara cittas. That is why cittas can be classified as eightynine or as hundred-and- twentyone types in all. Is this enough detail? Nina. Op 12-jun-2007, om 2:44 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Okay, so if the lokuttara > citta of a dry insight person matches the first jhana, what about the > other stages of insight? Is supramundane jhana supposed to occur at > different intensities or at the same intensity of the first jhana? #73274 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) nilovg Hi Larry, not only Ledi Sayadaw speaks about this force, satti. See intro Conditional Relations by U narada: < But in the Patthana, the forces that bring about causes and effects are also taken into account and it is with these forces that this subject is primarily concerned.> . Nina. Op 12-jun-2007, om 2:28 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Ledi > Sayadaw explains the phrase to mean "the special force of the > conditions, that is, their efficacy in various ways," and he states > that > unlike the method of dependent arising, where the mere conditioning > state is exhibited, the method of conditional relations is taught in > full by exhibiting the special force of the conditions. #73275 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:42 pm Subject: Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... Hi Ken, > I'm glad you see it that way too. However, we still don't understand > each other with regard to your 'anatta experience.' I am saying it > could only have been at the level of thinking, but you seem quite > sure it was direct knowledge. And yet we both agree that direct > knowledge of anatta comes only at the end of the mundane path > (satipatthana). ****** N: apart from 3 characteristics of mind, I also regard anatta as one of ten perceptions (in AN 10.60). i think nibbana depends upon complete eradication of defilements, it is actual abandoning and cessation of craving, that is more important. A glimpse of anatta doesn't make me say i m living with it. i m not. ****** > I see. But are you saying your practice (of meditation) has > accelerated you to the end of the mundane path - to where you are > about to become a Stream Enterer - or are you saying that it somehow > gives you a glimpse (a preview) of what is to come? ******** N: I am not a stream enterer because there are defilements quite deep i think . I am walking only. actually i don't think in terms of path and stages, not that i do not believe it, but i don't check on what stage i am at, etc. i am interested in purifying my heart and vision so i m doing it. and my practice doesn't consist only of meditation. i also think and contemplate and try to understand realities. And how can i say what would come. It all depends upon law of nature and conditions. ******** > A great deal of misinformation (about the suttas) has been spread in > modern times. The effect has been that people believe the suttas > contain the instructions for some kind of intentional vipassana > meditation. In fact, no such instructions are to be found. ******* K: Ken, you and me have limited intelligence. none of us can claim that what we percieve is the only truth. we might endlessly discuss and argue about these things but actually there is no way to either prove or disprove it except expressing opinions and logical conclusions, and both have their limitations. Only buddha can tell why he spoke so and so sutta. but as per my understanding there are instructions to monks in sutta. if you like to contemplate and think these suttas, that is also very very good. and it has capacity to awaken insight. ****** >According to the suttas, insight arises only by conditions, and the >only > conditions for the arising of insight are "the gradual practice" >that > we have been talking about. There is no intensive practice that > somehow speeds the process up. ******** N: Reading tipitaka, listening dhamma, discussing it, contemplating, thinking, all are intentional acts. But they are effort in 'right direction'. i think same can be applied to practice of sutta. Don't you think that Mahasatipatthana sutta is also one of the instructive sutta. though i understand it is very very very special sutta, and arising of sati is not intentional, however understanding of realities cannot be done if intention is totally absent, and reminding oneself of anatta is also intentional act, which all of us are doing here. though i think it is beneficial, but intention is present in that as well, because we have not actully realised it. ******** > Defilements can be either abstained from, suppressed or eradicated. I > think it is fair to say that all forms of kusala consciousness > *abstain* from akusala. However, this abstention lasts for only one > citta (or one process of cittas), after which akusala cittas can > again occur. ******* N: I think kusala is absense of akusala, (alobha, adosa, amoha). prefix 'a' suggests complete absense. abstaining is not necessarily eradication. as per my understanding of english language, the word abstain means refrain, or resist. both do not suggest eradication. sati eradicates, nothing else can. ********* > Jhana (the highest form of kusala apart from vipassana) *suppresses* > akusala. It can last for a long time, but it is an extremely advanced > form of concentration that blocks out sense-door consciousness and > maintains a string of kusala mind-door cittas fixed on a single > object. ******* N: if in jhana (meditation) realities are not observed (understood/watched) as it is, as they appear, it leads to suppression of akusala. if realities are watched without resisting and without condemnation it releases mind from akusala to that extent. ******* > Satipatthana (mundane insight) weakens the defilements to such an > extent that they can no longer arise in extreme forms. It leads to > supramundane insight, which finishes the process off by *eradicating* > defilements completely. > > Corrections are welcome but I think I've got that approximately > right. :-) > > Ken H > ******* yes, this i liked very much. metta, nidhi #73276 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:43 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. wisdomcompas... Dear Nina, thanks i will surely read it. metta nidhi ***** -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Nidhi, > you could try this link: > Nina. #73277 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:49 pm Subject: Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... hi ken again, one typing error, sati plus panna eradicates, nothing else metta nidhi #73278 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/12/2007 6:20:54 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: I never said that there isn't "mental energy", nor that phsicality doesn't effect mentality and vice-versa. I say, however, that mental operations, are not identical with energy. Simply calling everything by the same name doesn't change reality. Energy isonvolved with all mental operations,but they are not themselves energy. Hi Howard Is mentality a phenomena with the power to affect phenomena? Conditionality is well "seen" when it is understood that "this is moving that, this is causing that." Energy diversifies into many forms. All that we know ... in fact. Terry #73279 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/12/2007 6:38:37 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: All conditionality. When there was this, there is that, and then that, and then that. There is no transmission to Howard of the volitional energy involved in your writing this post. ............................. NEW TG: Of course there is. My thoughts are affecting your thoughts and moving your mind (via the internet and a myriad of other supporting conditions)... Hence, instilling the volition in your mind to move your body to type this response. ................................ TG OUT #73280 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY, half way there. TGrand458@... Hi Colette In a message dated 6/12/2007 7:07:46 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: Good Morning TG, Now it's my turn to try to follow your line of thought. Below, lets start with electricity, no? > NEW TG: Based on the structure of conditions/energies NEW TG states move > faster in relation to others...from our perspective. > > ............ .... .... .... .... colette: it's an electrical current is all I'm saying but you pose the thought that currents move at different speeds. Everything is in motion, vibrating. Different currents travel at different speeds meaning that a current that catches a person and takes away the ability of that person to bond with any other current does so because it traveled faster to that person than the other current. See chemical bonding. --------------------------- .................................. NEW TG: It depends on the conditions, forces, mediums, which are interacting. .......................................... > > NEW TG: I think I understand what you mean. The "contact" is affecting > minds even if there is no response to the post. That's in fact why I make such > posts. > > ............ .... .... .... .... > colette: exactly, I can spice up any dessert or a main coarse with whatever chemicals I choose and the diners can eat the food, contact has been made. Now, they don't have to compliment me on the flavor of the meal that I prepared for them and gratify my ego for my expertise if they don't aren't aware of the chemicals they've eaten, back in the 70s making "brownies" or we can go to Socrates and his favorite drink, Hemlock, or go to the CIA and the testing they did on LSD back in the 50s. I know my posts work, therefore I know what I'm looking for when I breeze through the msg. board. ----------------------------- > > NEW TG: Trick question? Otherwise ... No, not conscious. colette: I haven't run into it yet, but I know it's a trick question and it tricks me all the time, but you may be wrong suggesting that the Buddha is not conscious since you must define what constitutes consciousness and somehow you'll have to prove that the Buddha does not possess those characteristics at this second. I bring to the table here, some Western values and that damn Svabhava thing implying a soul, an Atman. -------------------------- ............................................... NEW TG: The Buddha describes the “death resultâ€? of an enlightened (arahat) monk, Ven.Dabba Mallaputta… The body disintegrated, perception ceased, All feelings became cool, Mental activities were calmed, And consciousness came to an end. (The Buddha . . . The Udana & The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) TG OUT #73281 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/12/2007 3:23:26 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Larry, not only Ledi Sayadaw speaks about this force, satti. See intro Conditional Relations by U narada: < But in the Patthana, the forces that bring about causes and effects are also taken into account and it is with these forces that this subject is primarily concerned.> . Nina. Op 12-jun-2007, om 2:28 heeft _LBIDD@..._ (mailto:LBIDD@...) het volgende geschreven: > Ledi > Sayadaw explains the phrase to mean "the special force of the > conditions, that is, their efficacy in various ways," and he states > that > unlike the method of dependent arising, where the mere conditioning > state is exhibited, the method of conditional relations is taught in > full by exhibiting the special force of the conditions. Hi Larry and Nina Explaining "conditions" as "the special force of the conditions" or "energies" is the same thing. Sounds like you are "semi-onboard" with that. ..or at least Ledi Sayadaw sounds like he would be. TG #73282 From: han tun Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollection of the Buddha- 6 hantun1 Dear James and Nina, Thank you both very much for your explanations. What I like best is the following sentence. “Rather it is in the fathom-long carcass with its perceptions and its consciousness that I make known the world, the arising of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world.” “Api caaham aavuso imasmi~n~neva byaama-matte kalevare sasa~n~nimhi samanake loka~nca pa~n~napemi, loka-samudaya~nca, loka-nirodha~nca, loka-nirodha-gaamini~nca patipadam.” Nibbaana is not our fathom-long carcass, but it is also not far away from it, because we can find the way to Nibbaana in this fathom-long carcass. Respectfully, Han #73283 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Is this enough detail? > Nina. Yes, this is exactly what I was wondering. Thanks for the information! Metta, James #73284 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/12/07 4:03:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > NEW TG: Of course there is. My thoughts are affecting your thoughts and > moving your mind (via the internet and a myriad of other supporting > conditions)... Hence, instilling the volition in your mind to move your body > to type > ====================== Your thoughts are condition for other things, including, indirectly, my thoughts. There is no force/power transmitted. It is all just conditionality - when this, then that. In any case, TG, we don't agree on this. With metta, Howard #73285 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/12/07 5:48:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Larry and Nina > > Explaining "conditions" as "the special force of the conditions" or > "energies" is the same thing. Sounds like you are "semi-onboard" with > that. ..or at > least Ledi Sayadaw sounds like he would be. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed it does sound so, and the sound is no more appealing to me whatever the source. ;-) For me this is a species of substantialism. ---------------------------------------- > > TG > ======================== With metta, Howard #73286 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/12/07 3:57:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Is mentality a phenomena with the power to affect phenomena? > > Conditionality is well "seen" when it is understood that "this is moving > that, this is causing that." Energy diversifies into many forms. All that > we > know ... in fact. > > Terry > ==================== There is nothing that doesn't serve as condition for other things. On that basis, you wish to call everything energy. That's your prerogative. ;-) With metta, Howard #73287 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/12/2007 4:43:49 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Your thoughts are condition for other things, including, indirectly, my thoughts. There is no force/power transmitted. It is all just conditionality - when this, then that. In any case, TG, we don't agree on this. Hi Howard Conditionality is, in fact, the force and power that IS transmitted. Those ARE the conditions. Yes, absolute disagreement here as to what conditionality is. A few quotes from the suttas... “…just as heat is generated and fire is produced from the conjunction and friction of two fire-sticks, but when the sticks are separated and laid aside the resultant heat ceases and subsides; so too, these three feelings [pleasant, painful, neutral] are born of contact, rooted in contact, with contact as their source and condition. In dependence on the appropriate contacts the corresponding feelings arise; with the cessation of the appropriate contacts the corresponding feelings cease.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1270) “ . . . each feeling arises in dependence upon its corresponding condition, and with the cessation of its corresponding condition, the feeling ceases.â€? (Ven. Nandaka instructing nuns at the request of the Buddha . . . MLDB, pg. 1122, Advice from Nandaka, Nandakovada Sutta, #146) “By reason of a cause it came to be By rupture of a cause it dies awayâ€? (Ven. Sela . . . KS, vol. 1, pg. 169) “Thus, monks, one state just causes another state to swell, one state just causes the fulfillment of another state…â€? (The Buddha . . . GS, vol. 5, pg. 4) TG OUT #73288 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 6/12/2007 4:48:27 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/12/07 5:48:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: > Hi Larry and Nina > > Explaining "conditions" as "the special force of the conditions" or > "energies" is the same thing. Sounds like you are "semi-onboard" with > that. ..or at > least Ledi Sayadaw sounds like he would be. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, indeed it does sound so, and the sound is no more appealing to me whatever the source. ;-) For me this is a species of substantialism. ....................................... What's substantialistic about his? These energies are conditioned, they have no self nature, no self essence. They are resultants. Each of the Four Great Elements is the result of the other three. None stands on its own. What is said here is no more substantial than anything that can be said about experience. Experience is, in fact, the experiencing of energies. TG OUT ...................................................... ---------------------------------------- > > TG > ======================== With metta, Howard #73289 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/12/2007 4:55:23 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: There is nothing that doesn't serve as condition for other things. On that basis, you wish to call everything energy. That's your prerogative. ;-) Hi Howard Yes I do. Because that's what it is. Conditions are "forces" that have the power to AFFECT. Power = energy. TG #73290 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:39 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner philofillet Hi Mike Something occured to me this morning related to this. Every morning I reflect on the sutta in AN about how one makes an island, a refuge for oneself, through one's deeds, so when one departs this world, one may part happily. (AN III, 51) This is obviously a very non-paramattha sounding sutta. I think it is a strong condition for me to pursure right view of the very conventional "avoid evil, do good" kind. On the other hand, or on a deeper hand (?!) there is another sutta somewhere in which the island, the refuge, is taught in very paramattha terms, and I know I have heard Acharn Sujin refer to this teaching as well. The island, the refuge, is a moment of direct understanding or something like that. I feel this kind of refuge is not relevant to me and my mindstream, but these two teachings of the island, the refuge, might be interesting for considering how mundane right view might be a condition for the deeper right view. (In my opinion, it is also an area through which Acharn Sujin could deepen her ability(?) to teach to different people with different needs. Going straight to the second refuge, the refuge through moments of understanding directly, was really premature for me, and I think it's safe to say it is premature for others as well, if they are prone to many transgressions of sila.) When one has established an island, a refuge, by diliegently abstaining from evil deeds of body, speech and mind, there will be better conditions for the deeper island to be glimpsed. I am utterly convinced that this is true, and would *love* to give a certain example, but it is a bit too private. Perhaps off-line.... :) Anyways, I don't know if this is relevant or not to what you were getting at. Metta, Phil > > This is > > > right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in > the > > > acquisitions."--clearly conceptual, wouldn't you agree?--might > be a > > > necessary (object or strong-dependence) condition for for > > subsequent > > > insight. The way it seems to me lately--I'm still trying to > > > corroborate this from the texts--is that this is usually or > > generally > > > the case but perhaps not always. #73291 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:55 pm Subject: Re: Repost -- ENERGY philofillet Hi TG and all I was interested by your statement, though I suspect it is more because I cling to the notion of having energy to do good things and be happy in this world. So not nearly as deep as what you are getting at below. Two unlrelated points on more ENERGY that I have come across recently that have been helpful for me. THe first was in a Dhamma talk by Ajahn B - I forget the full name, you all know him, the very cheerful Brit who teaches out of Australia. He has a Dhamma talk called "Mental energy is happiness", I think, in which he encouarges us to reflect on how all the thinking we do to try to sort out our problems just tires us out and doesn't get us anywhere. He uses the simile of a tea bag being squeezed of all its juices. Our brains become tired out, dried up tea bags. Through meditation, we condition the mind to stop thinking so much, so there is more mental energy, and more happiness. This is utterly non-deep and pop Buddhist, but so be it. I think it is true. Another thing was in a book on the precepts by Thich Nhat Hahn.He talks about three sources of energy: "In Asia, we say there are three sources of energy - sexual, breath and spirit. Tinh, khi and than." I won't go into the details. I was just wondering if there is anything like this in Theravada. I guess...not? Sorry that this is unrelated. I am always keen to have more energy, and am feeling these days that that is not such a bad thing, because the energy can be condition for abstaining from evil, doing good, and purifying the mind. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi All > > One more note on ENERGY... > > ENERGY is anything with the POWER to AFFECT anything. Hence, all of > CONDITIONALITY is ENERGY. > #73292 From: connie Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:23 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (59) nichiconn Dear friends, 7. Sattakanipaato 2. Caalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 2. The commentary on the verses of Theri Caalaa Sati.m upa.t.thapetvaanaati-aadikaa caalaaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinitvaa imasmi.m buddhuppaade magadhesu naalakagaame ruupasaaribraahma.niyaa kucchimhi nibbatti. Tassaa naamaggaha.nadivase caalaati naama.m aka.msu, tassaa kani.t.thaaya upacaalaati, atha tassaa kani.t.thaaya siisuupacaalaati Imaa tissopi dhammasenaapatissa kani.t.thabhaginiyo, imaasa.m puttaanampi ti.n.na.m idameva naama.m. Ye sandhaaya theragaathaaya "caale upacaale siisuupacaale"ti (theragaa. 42) aagata.m. Pruitt: The verses beginning Summoning up mindfulness are Therii Caalaa's. She too performed meritorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. In this Buddha era, she was reborn in the womb of the brahman woman Ruupasaarii in the village of Naalaka in Magadha. on the day for giving a name, she was named Caalaa. Her younger sister was called Upacaalaa, and then [another] younger sister of hers was callled Siisuupacaalaa. These three were younger sisters of the General of the Doctrine. The sons of these three [sisters] were given the same name [as their mothers]. As for them, the verse of the theras beginning "Caalaa, Upacaala, and Siisuupacaala" has come down [to us]. [[Th 42. On the form of these names, see EV I, p.131]] RD: She, too, having made her resolve under former Buddhas, and heaping up good of age-enduring efficacy in subsequent rebirths, was, in this Buddha-era, reborn in Magadha, at the village of Naalaka, *290 the child of Suruupasaarii, the Brahminee. And on her name-giving day they called her Caalaa. *291 Her younger sister was Upacaalaa, and the youngest Siisuupacaalaa, and all three were junior to their brother Saariputta, Captain of the Norm. *290 Called also Naala-village. Saariputta seems to have continued, at times, to reside there (Sa.my. N., iv. 251), and it was there that he died (ibid., v. 161). *291 These three Sisters are all included in the Bhikkhunii-Sa.myutta as having been tempted by Maara; but there Caalaa's reply is put into Siisupacaalaa's mouth, Upacaalaa's is given to Caalaa, and Siisupacaalaa's is given to Upacaalaa. See Appendix. ===tbc, another nice side trip: www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/r/rupasari.htm} connie #73293 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Recollection of the Buddha- 6 buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > thank you for this posting. I had not seen it when I answered Han. James: Not a problem. I'm glad that you gave a lot more details than what the footnote had. But I hope you didn't work too hard to get all that information. > The end of the world seems so far but the body and consciousness, > rupa and nama, are right here. The text points to the goal: by > developing more understanding of what is so near the noble Truths can > be realized. James: Yes, it is good to know that we don't have to go looking somewhere else for enlightenment; the door to nibbana is just right here- right in this fathom long body. (But that isn't to say that location for Dhamma cultivation isn't important….I will post more about this later.) Metta, James #73294 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY lbidd2 Hi TG and all, I don't see any problem with understanding the 5 khandhas as manifestations of energy and if you think that adds something to your understanding of causality, fine. I really don't know what energy is in this context, even on a conceptual level. Perhaps it is just a descriptor for the elusive quality of experience. The only energy I know is the kind that runs out (the viriya cetasika), but if everything is energy then on that level energy couldn't run out. As for causality, I think the phrase "specific causal efficacy of conditions" found in CMA refers to the unique characteristics of particular conditional relationships. For example, Nina has been talking about object preponderance condition which has the characteristic of being a valued object and is the object of only certain kinds of consciousness. A valued object can be the object of other kinds of consciousness (dosa for example) but it wouldn't be an object preponderance condition. So that is its "specific causal efficacy". I would add that a general characteristic of all conditions is that they are _other_ than what is conditioned. As simple as that is, I think it is a good thing to understand. A feeling and the object of that feeling are two different dhammas. However, I thought you brought this up with the idea that understanding everything as energy somehow subverts the "own nature" paradigm. I think if you do that you miss out on a lot of really powerful distinctions, like "two different dhammas". Larry #73295 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY, half way there. ksheri3 Hi TG, I'm surprised you don't apply Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass since every sailor in San Diego doesn't say Tijuana we just say TJ as in Capt. Kirk, I mean TJ Hooker as in whore, <....>. But Robespierre needs rest at the moment so we'll deal with your reply. > Now it's my turn to try to follow your line of thought. Below, lets > start with electricity, no? > > > NEW TG: Based on the structure of conditions/energies NEW TG > states move > > faster in relation to others...from our perspective. colette: is this a deliberate attempt to mess up a pastry or something? "...states move faster in relation to others..." others what? I mean is that faster in relation to other charges that are moving or faster than another person as if history catching up to them and piercing their backside Are you trying to open the characteristic that that all "energies" move at the same speed and that we, as individuals, move at different speeds which would make us the visitor in some other person's home, as in alien. My perspective is at first my perspective but it has so many limitations and lacks so many vital characteristics to be anything near alive that my perspective automatically REQUIRES that I subordinate my perspective to your perspective since my perspective is dead and has been dead since approx. 1980 if it was my dad that did the extermination of my perspective or 1981 if it was the status quo dictated to by Ronald Reagan and George Herbert Walker Bush. Thus I have an enormous repetroire of material to feast upon in case you want to play games and act stupid to the can of worms you've opened or the doors you've opened and cannot close. ----------------------------- > > colette: it's an electrical current is all I'm saying but you pose > the thought that currents move at different speeds. Everything is in > motion, vibrating. Different currents travel at different speeds > meaning that a current that catches a person and takes away the > ability of that person to bond with any other current does so because > it traveled faster to that person than the other current. See > chemical bonding. > --------------------------- > .................................. > > NEW TG: It depends on the conditions, forces, mediums, which are > interacting. > > .......................................... colette:<...> "It depends on the conditions..." what the hell is that kindof snake oil? Light travels at the same speed, C, ? lol Let me see ya tell me that you in your infinate wisdom and creation of the world, as a creator god, can and will chage the speed of light from C to something other based on the conditions that you impose upon all light. Are you actually gonna take the unpresendented risk, that I can't fathom an insurance company or protection raquet, being willing to back up, that you are gonna somehow apply a force to light and automatically change it's characteristics? I've got some friends that play around with laser lights, and they can get REAL HOT, so it would be most interesting to witness you applying your special creator god powers on this light to change, alter, it's characteristics. Before R.A.Wilson past away he made a humourous post on his website concerning an Indian Yogi that made a special potention to stop bullets. But he just had to test his potion now didn't he? In the process of the test he died of a gunshot wound after he told the people that were pointing guns at him to "fire". Is that crazy or what? ------------------------------------ > > > > > > NEW TG: I think I understand what you mean. The "contact" is > affecting > > minds even if there is no response to the post. That's in fact > why I make such > > posts. > > > > ............ .... .... .... .... > > > colette: exactly, I can spice up any dessert or a main coarse with > whatever chemicals I choose and the diners can eat the food, contact > has been made. Now, they don't have to compliment me on the flavor of > the meal that I prepared for them and gratify my ego for my expertise > if they don't aren't aware of the chemicals they've eaten, back in > the 70s making "brownies" or we can go to Socrates and his favorite > drink, Hemlock, or go to the CIA and the testing they did on LSD back > in the 50s. > > I know my posts work, therefore I know what I'm looking for when I > breeze through the msg. board. > ----------------------------- > > > > NEW TG: Trick question? Otherwise ... No, not conscious. > > colette: I haven't run into it yet, but I know it's a trick question > and it tricks me all the time, but you may be wrong suggesting that > the Buddha is not conscious since you must define what constitutes > consciousness and somehow you'll have to prove that the Buddha does > not possess those characteristics at this second. I bring to the > table here, some Western values and that damn Svabhava thing implying > a soul, an Atman. > -------------------------- > The Buddha describes the “death resultâ€? of an enlightened (arahat) monk, > Ven.Dabba Mallaputta… > The body disintegrated, perception ceased, > All feelings became cool, > Mental activities were calmed, > And consciousness came to an end. > (The Buddha . . . The Udana & The Itivuttaka, pg. 116, 8.9) I'll think about it. thanx toodles, colette #73296 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:43 pm Subject: Re: what is sati kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wisdomcompassion" wrote: > > hi ken again, > > one typing error, > sati plus panna eradicates, nothing else > > metta > nidhi > Hi Nidhi, Thanks for the clarification. After a while we know what various DSG members mean to say, and there is no need for them to fix their typos. :-) But I agree; sati with panna is fundamentally different from sati without panna. I notice you are careful to add comments such as "(it must be understood that usage of word 'I' is in conventional sense)". In a way, that is another thing that DSG members will assume you to mean. However, there is always a very real danger of falling back into conventional ways of understanding the world, and so that sort of clarification is always appreciated. Getting back to your previous post: --------------------- N: > apart from 3 characteristics of mind, I also regard anatta as one of ten perceptions (in AN 10.60). i think nibbana depends upon complete eradication of defilements, it is actual abandoning and cessation of craving, that is more important. A glimpse of anatta doesn't make me say i m living with it. i m not. ---------------------- I have a slightly different understanding of the process. Regardless of whatever reality comes into consciousness, sati and panna can know it as a mere conditioned nama or rupa - with the characteristics anicca, dukkha and anatta. In that way, they *know* conditioned existence is unworthy of craving. That is the only way by which "abandoning and cessation" of craving can come about. ----------------- N: > I am not a stream enterer because there are defilements quite deep i think . I am walking only. actually i don't think in terms of path and stages, not that i do not believe it, but i don't check on what stage i am at, etc. i am interested in purifying my heart and vision so i m doing it. and my practice doesn't consist only of meditation. i also think and contemplate and try to understand realities. And how can i say what would come. It all depends upon law of nature and conditions. --------------------- My practice is different. It takes place in a single citta. Cittas come and go in a trillionth of a second, and so, in my practice, there is no opportunity for doing something to make insight happen. Insight either happens (because the conditions for its happening are present) or it doesn't (because the conditions for its happening are absent). I have no control over this practice. Therefore, it is pointless of me to call it "my" practice. It is the practice taught by the Buddha. ------------------ N: > Reading tipitaka, listening dhamma, discussing it, contemplating, thinking, all are intentional acts. But they are effort in 'right direction'. ------------------- Yes, but for whom are they in the right direction? If I am thinking, "By studying this Dhamma book I will gain peace and wisdom," there is the idea of a continuing self, isn't there? That would not be a single-moment practice. That would be a conventional practice belonging to the illusory world of people, places and 'things to do.' And so the effort would be in a *wrong* direction. ---------------------------- N: > i think same can be applied to practice of sutta. ---------------------------- This is where our opinions differ. In my opinion, the suttas describe only the gradual method (study and understanding). I am not aware of any other factors leading to enlightenment. I am well aware of additional practices that are found outside the suttas. For many years I followed instructions to note, "hearing, hearing" "feeling, feeling" "thinking, thinking" and that kind of thing. But I was wrongly advised. -------------------------------------- N: > Don't you think that Mahasatipatthana sutta is also one of the instructive sutta. -------------------------------------- No, it describes the practice of satipatthana. Satipatthana occurs in the latter stages of the gradual method. It is extremely rare and difficult to attain. It is not something that beginners can attempt at a moment's notice. The sutta opens with a description of the way satipatthana is practised by jhana meditators who use breath as their object of concentration. These are the greatest of all practitioners. As explained in other suttas, only "buddhas and buddhas' sons (chief disciples)" use breath as their object of jhana. Afterwards, the sutta describes the more general ways in which satipatthana is practised. At no stage is the sutta a set of instructions; it is purely a description. As I was saying before, a set of instructions (something we can do in order to make insight happen) could not possibly apply to a practice that takes place in a single (trillionth of a second) citta. -------------------- N: > though i understand it is very very very special sutta, and arising of sati is not intentional, however understanding of realities cannot be done if intention is totally absent, -------------------- Intention (cetana) is present in every citta, but I think I know what you mean. You mean that the intention in one citta can influence the form in which a following citta will appear. So you think there needs (firstly) to be intention to practise insight, which is followed (secondly) by insight. One problem with that theory is it can exclude the dhammas of the present moment. If the present moment was not preceded by intention to practise satipatthana then, by your reckoning, it cannot become the object of right mindfulness and right understanding. As we know from the suttas, all sorts of consciousness (kusala, akusala and kiriya) can be known as they really are. In other words, satipatthana is not restricted to formal occasions where there is a preparatory, calm, specifically-intentioned state of mind. I'll stop there for now. I hope I'm not being too argumentative. :-) Ken H #73297 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/12/07 7:32:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Conditionality is, in fact, the force and power that IS transmitted. Those > > ARE the conditions. > > Yes, absolute disagreement here as to what conditionality is. A few quotes > > from the suttas... > > > “…just as heat is generated and fire is produced from the conjunction and > friction of two fire-sticks, but when the sticks are separated and laid > aside > the resultant heat ceases and subsides; so too, these three feelings > [pleasant, painful, neutral] are born of contact, rooted in contact, with > contact as > their source and condition. In dependence on the appropriate contacts the > > corresponding feelings arise; with the cessation of the appropriate > contacts > the corresponding feelings cease.â€? > (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1270) > “ . . . each feeling arises in dependence upon its corresponding condition, > > and with the cessation of its corresponding condition, the feeling ceases.â€? > > (Ven. Nandaka instructing nuns at the request of the Buddha . . . MLDB, pg. > > 1122, Advice from Nandaka, Nandakovada Sutta, #146) > “By reason of a cause it came to be > By rupture of a cause it dies awayâ€? > (Ven. Sela . . . KS, vol. 1, pg. 169) > “Thus, monks, one state just causes another state to swell, one state just > causes the fulfillment of another state…â€? > (The Buddha . . . GS, vol. 5, pg. 4) > TG OUT > > ====================== I don't get from these quotes what you get at all. C'est la vie! ;-) With metta, Howard #73298 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:53 pm Subject: Recollection of the Buddha- 7 buddhatrue Hi All, RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS INCOMPARABLE LEADER OF MEN TO BE TAMED: In the absence of anyone more distinguished for special qualities than himself there is no one to compare with him, thus he is incomparable. For in this way he surpasses the whole world in the special quality of virtue, and also in the special qualities of concentration, understanding, deliverance, and knowledge and vision of deliverance. In the special quality of virtue he is without equal, he is the equal only of those [other Enlightened Ones] without equal, he is without like, without double, without counterpart;…in the special quality of knowledge and vision of deliverance he is…without counterpart, according as it is said; `I do not see in the world with its deities, its Maras and its Brahmas, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmans, with its princes and men, anyone more perfect in virtue than myself' with the rest in detail, and likewise in the Aggappasada Sutta, and so on, and in the stanzas beginning `I have no teacher and my like does not exist in all the world', all of which whould be taken in detail. He guides men to be tamed thus he is leader of men to be tamed; he tames, he disciplines, is what is meant. Herein, animal males and human males and non-human males that are not tamed but fit to be tamed are `men to be tamed'. For the animal males, namely, the Royal Naga (Serpent), Apalala, Culodara, Mohodara, Aggisikha, Dhumasikha the Royal Naga Aravala, the elephant Dhanapalaka, and so on, were tamed by the Blessed One, freed from the poison [of defilement] and established in the refuges and the precepts of virtue, and also the human males, namely, Saccaka the Niganthas' (Jains') son, the Brahman student Ambattha, Pokkharasati, Sonadanda, Kutadanta, and so on, and also the non-human males, namely, the spirits Alavaka, Suciloma and Kharaloma, Sakka Rules of Gods, etc., were tamed and disciplined by various disciplinary means. And the following sutta should be given in full here: `I discipline men to be tamed sometimes gently, Kesi, and I discipline them sometimes roughly, and I discipline them sometimes gently and roughly' (A, 112). Then the Blessed One moreover further tames those already tamed, doing so by announcing the first jhana, etc., respectively to those whose virtue is purified, etc., and also the way to the higher path to Stream-enterers, and so on. Or alternatively the words incomparable leader of men to be tamed can be taken together as one clause. For the Blessed One so guides men to be tamed that in a single session they may go in the eight directions [by the eight liberations] without hesitation. Thus he is called the incomparable leader of men to be tamed. And the following Sutta passage should be given in full here. `Guided by the elephant-tamer, bhikkhus, the elephant to be tamed goes in one direction...'(M, 222). To be continued…RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS TEACHER OF GODS AND MEN Metta, James #73299 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/12/2007 6:56:47 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: However, I thought you brought this up with the idea that understanding everything as energy somehow subverts the "own nature" paradigm. I think if you do that you miss out on a lot of really powerful distinctions, like "two different dhammas". Larry Hi Larry "Energy," as an insight idea, has nothing to do with subverting "own nature." The Buddha's teachings, just as they stand, are already very capable of illuminating any idea of "own nature" as utter nonsense. This is not in any way to say that the distinguishing of different qualities and "their" mechanics is not a very important practice. Just be aware, while mindful of phenomenal interactions, that the "so called" individual qualities" are not what they appear to be...that is, if they are actually thought of as individual. Rather, they are selfless, empty "echoes" ... empty of anything "of themselves." The idea of "seeing" things as energies is simply to get a comprehensive mindful "handle" on how phenomena are interacting -- are moving, molding, and evolving. Never as "things as themselves, but rather, as continuously altering energies -- forces -- conditions. TG #73300 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/12/2007 7:55:47 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: I don't get from these quotes what you get at all. C'est la vie! ;-) With metta, Howard Hi Howard How do you know what I get from them? I just posted them and didn't make any claims on them. But your probably both right and wrong. ;-) TG #73301 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY, half way there. TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/12/2007 7:12:19 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, ksheri3@... writes: colette: is this a deliberate attempt to mess up a pastry or something? "...states move faster in relation to others..." others what? I mean is that faster in relation to other charges that are moving or faster than another person as if history catching up to them and piercing their backside Are you trying to open the characteristic that that all "energies" move at the same speed and that we, as individuals, move at different speeds which would make us the visitor in some other person's home, as in alien. My perspective is at first my perspective but it has so many limitations and lacks so many vital characteristics to be anything near alive that my perspective automatically REQUIRES that I subordinate my perspective to your perspective since my perspective is dead and has been dead since approx. 1980 if it was my dad that did the extermination of my perspective or 1981 if it was the status quo dictated to by Ronald Reagan and George Herbert Walker Bush. Thus I have an enormous repetroire of material to feast upon in case you want to play games and act stupid to the can of worms you've opened or the doors you've opened and cannot close. Hi Colette Not to ignore you, but this is really too fanciful and oblique for me to try to respond to. I don't have the energy. ;-) TG #73302 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY TGrand458@... Hi All How could the experience of "hardness" arise, if "hardness" did not have a distinguishable force? TG #73303 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:00 pm Subject: Satipatthana- not appropriate for most householders buddhatrue Hi All, In this group, the question is often raised about what is the most appropriate path of practice for householders. In this day and age, this era of "vipassana meditation" taught by people like Goenka, Kornfield, etc., the predominate outlook is that satipatthana (four foundations of mindfulness) is the most appropriate practice for householders and jhana cultivation should be left to monks. However, from what I have read from the Buddha's teaching, this approach is completely backwards. I posit that satipatthana is most appropriate for monks and jhana cultivation is the most appropriate path of practice for householders. What needs to be considered most strongly is the goal. What is the goal of monks and what is the goal of householders? Monks have liberation, nibbana, as their goal. Their lives are focused on this goal. Householders don't have nibbana as a goal (at least most don't). Householders have as a goal to have a more peaceful, pure, and happy life (and rebirth)- but they aren't quite ready to give it all up to nibbana. Householders have loved ones which they don't want to lose and/or feel responsible for. In short, nibbana is not the goal for most householders. Therefore, householders should predominately cultivate jhana and monks should predominately cultivate satipatthana. Satipatthana is the direct path to nibbana. Additionally, satipatthana is difficult to practice, time-consuming, and often painful. Jhana, on the other hand, isn't difficult to practice, time-consuming, or painful…and it isn't a direct path to nibbana. However, jhana will result in a more happy life in the here and now and in a fortunate rebirth. Jhana cultivation simply requires some time set aside for daily practice and perhaps a retreat once or twice a year. Observing the moon days at a Buddhist temple is also helpful. The Buddha recommended the cultivation of jhana to householders in quite a few suttas, but the cultivation of satipatthana for householders is rarely mentioned in the Canon (I can only recall one sutta and that is a householder who asks specifically about satipatthana….obviously a very advanced householder...but some other examples would be welcome). Some mistakenly believe that in order to cultivate jhana the person must live a lifestyle free from sensual pleasures. This idea isn't supported by the texts. What the texts state is that one shouldn't live a lifestyle which is so busy that there is no TIME for the practice. However, the practice of satipatthana does requires a lifestyle free of sensual pleasure and a very strong guarding of the sense doors. Again, satipatthana is only for those who are very, very serious about the Dhamma and are aiming for enlightenment in this lifetime. Otherwise, jhana practice is the more appropriate practice for householders. The most appropriate subjects for householders to cultivate jhana are the Ten Recollections. Mindfulness of Breathing (the most popular nowadays) will give quick results, but requires more time and effort as one progresses. Metta, James #73304 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:11 pm Subject: Bangkok discussions sarahprocter... Dear Nina & all, *Dieter We just received a note from Ven Pannabahulo to confirm he'd be joining the discussions in Bangkok when we go soon. This reminded me that you'd asked about our dates. The extra sessions arranged are the following: -Tuesday 3rd July at 2pm -Wednesday 4th July 9am - lunch and then continue after lunch -Thursday 5th July 2pm We may also be going in time for the Sat discussion before this (30th), depending on whether our flight gets in on time. (Jon has to work on the Friday, so we can only leave on the Sat morning). Also, we may stay for the following Sat. Azita will also be there and Han for the Wed. at least. If anyone else is free and would like to attend any of these discussions, you'd be made most welcome of course. As usual, we'll try to send e-cards while we're away. Metta, Sarah *Dieter, I saw you mention that you visit Bangkok. Let us know if you are going anytime... Also, I know I 'owe' replies to you, TG and almost everyone!! Not forgotten..... ======= #73305 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:47 pm Subject: Re: Satipatthana- not appropriate for most householders philofillet Hi James Interesting. Personally, I think the meditation that is called "vipassana" (the teachers I've heard - Bhikkhu Bodhi, and Burmese Sayadaws - make it clear that it is not really vipassana, vipassana refers to a stage of insight, or something like that) is still immensely helpful for coming to terms with the chaotic, harmful patterns of our mindstreams. I don't do it in the hopes of insight, just as a way of coming to see where my mind leads me into danger. It is so helpful for forming more helpful mental habits, which conditions hepful patterns of acting, thinking and talking in daily life. I would like to post some passages from Joseph Goldstein's "insight meditation" - I don't think what he talks about is truly insight, but I have no doubt whatsoever that those who practice in this commmon sense way will benefit. And conditions may be set for deeper progress. As for jhanas, I'm glad that it is easy for you to practice. Out of the question for me, because my hindrances are too thick. For me, meditation is the mind jumping around until it settles enough for me to fall asleep. That sounds pointless, but it is not. Again and again, the mind is conditioned to come back to an upright position, and that upright position is more often achieved in daily life. That's all I want - for the monkey mind to be tamed a little. Jhanas could become relevant to me someday, and I hope they do - but not yet. Anyways, out of the question with my darling wife crashing around as I meditate. I think for folks who live by themselves or who have land, places to be alone, it is more possible. Not possible in a small apartment where one doesn't live alone. You'll see when you visit us! (Looking forward to it) Metta, Phil p.s have a great trip to the States! I've always wanted to go to the south-west. Stay away from the wacky cacti!! > In this group, the question is often raised about what is the most > appropriate path of practice for householders. In this day and age, > this era of "vipassana meditation" taught by people like Goenka, > Kornfield, etc., the predominate outlook is that satipatthana (four > foundations of mindfulness) is the most appropriate practice for > householders and jhana cultivation should be left to monks. #73306 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) nilovg Hi TG, > semi-onboard, ha, ha. It is all a matter of language I think. Nina. Op 12-jun-2007, om 23:41 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > Sounds like you are "semi-onboard" with that. #73307 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) sarahprocter... Hi TG, TGrand458@... wrote: > S: There are so many, many suttas in which the Buddha talked about the > impermanence of all conditioned dhammas. Yes, they are impermanent or > disintegrate because that is their nature to do so as soon as the > conditions for their arising are no longer occurring. > > ...................................... > > NEW TG: What you wrote is unclear to me. <...> > These statements are in conflict with each other IMO. If something has > "its > own" nature, then its impermanence need not depend on conditions. If > something is dependent on conditions, then it does not have "its own" > nature. .... S: All sankhara dhammas have the characteristic/nature of impermanence AND they all depend on conditions for their arising. I don't see any conflict in this. It's 101 Dhamma. Take sound which appears now. If there were no conditions for it to arise, it wouldn't. Does it last even for a finger-snap? No. As soon as it arises, it falls away. .... > What happened to the "immediate arising and then falling away" theory? .... S: Not a theory, a characteristic of such dhammas! .... > If > its "falling away" is dependent on conditions, and the conditions > remain for a > while, then the resultant condition is remaining accordingly isn't it? .... S: The falling away is the characteristic of impermanence. This is the meaning. The conditions are impermanent dhammas too. For example, one condition for sound to be heard is contact (phassa) which accompanies hearing consciousness. The phassa is also impermanent. As it falls away, sound is no longer 'contacted' or heard. Because of other conditions, the sound lasts longer than the hearing before it falls away, but it's still very, very brief and impermanent. .... > 35: 84 > Subject to Disintegration (Bodhi transl): > > "...Whatever is subject to disintegration, Aananda, is called the > world....And what is subject to disintegration? They > eye....forms.eye....forms. feeling.....feeling.....feel > ..... <..> > NEW TG: Let's deal with the Sutta you posted and not the "colored" > comments. > > The key phrase in the Sutta is "subject to disintegration." This tells > us > two things which are really the same. One: that they are "subject" to > impermanence which means it is dependant on something else. .... S: No, it means that all these conditioned dhammas disintegrate, that's all. .... > Two: It > also indicates > in that phenomenal impermanence is not "arising and immediate falling > away" > due to "its own characteristics." .... S: Elsewhere the Buddha talks about the speed of which such dhammas do arise and fall away and how he cannot give an analogy to show just how fast this is. Whatever word we use, sabbe sankhara anicca means it is the nature of such dhammas to arise and fall away. Thx for all your other comments. We do read these suttas in a different manner, I know! Metta, Sarah ======= #73308 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] sarahprocter... Dear Han, Thank you for your kind reflections and sutta quotes. --- han tun wrote: > By nature, I am very emotional. What I fear most about > the death is the parting with my loved ones. > I can put myself in place of relatives and friends of > Alan Driver, and feel the same sorrow they felt. .... S: Yet, I think our mental states are very unpredictable. We think that we'll feel so sad or fearful, but we have no idea. There may be metta for others or wise reflection of even understanding of dhammas. No point in worrying or being afraid about the future when we have so little idea what it'll bring. As I mentioned, at this funeral, I felt very sad when I arrived, but within a short time was smiling again, thanks to the good friendship. Unpredictable. .... > If you compare the two passages, you will find that > one clause is missing in the latter passage. “bearing > in mind the time of awakening” (utthaana sa~n~nam > manasikaritvaa) is no more there. Although it was not > uttered by the Buddha himself he must have known that > he was lying down for the last time. > > Will I know that I am lying down for the last time, > when I lie down for the last time? .... S: Who knows? No point being concerned about it, otherwise we just accumulate more fear, more attachment to ourselves! (Nice story about your friends and his kindness.) ... > Perhaps, I need some reminding that Ven Aananda > needed. > > Page 252-253: > “Aananda, have I not told you before: All those things > that are dear and pleasant to us must suffer change, > separation and alteration? So how could this be > possible? Whatever is born, become, compounded, is > liable to decay – that it should not decay is > impossible.” > > “sabbeheva piyehi manaapehi naanaabhaavo vinaabhaavo > a~n~nathaabhaavo. Tam kutettha Aananda labbhaa, yam > tam jaatam bhuutam sankhatam paloka dhammam. Tam vata > maapalujjiiti netam thaanam vijjati.” ... S: And for TG, what is dear and pleasant to us? Visible objects, sounds, tastes, tangible objects, feelings, perceptions so on - all subject to decay. ... > Dear Sarah, please do not hold up your presentation. I > will be following up your discussions quietly. .... S: Thanks Han! Metta, Sarah ======= #73309 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Boddhisatvas' willingness to be reborn for the sake of many. sarahprocter... Hi Sudhana, Thx for introducing yourself. I was interested to hear that you now live in UK as I'm from UK too, but have been living overseas (mostly in Hong Kong) for more than 25 yrs now. I was also interested to hear that you are from India, but bron in a 'traditional theravada Buddhist family'. I look forward to hearing more from you. As to this question which I don't think anyone replied to: --- sudhanadewan wrote: > I am wandering if anybody could clear me the idea about the Mahayana > concept of Boddhisatva taking rebirtth in order to help the people > cycling in the realms of samsara. I sometimes wandered, there were many > Arahats during Buddha's times but none of them choose to come again to > help people. ... S: You are right. Arahats do not 'choose to come again to help people'. This is impossible. Even the Buddha could not do so. Once fully enlightened, there is no further rebirth for any reason. The cycle is cut. Sticking to the Theravada teachings, we do read about the Bodhisattas (before becoming Buddhas) developing the perfections over countless aeons out of compassion to help others discover the truth. We particularly read a lot about (Gotama) Buddha when a bodhisatta, for example, in the Jataka tales. ..... > Secondly, what is your views about Buddha Amitabha? who is one such > Boddhisatva Buddha In the time of Lokeshwararaja long, long before > Sakyamuni Buddha. (in Pureland) .... S: I believe this is the belief of Pureland Buddhists, but not found in the Theravada teachings. So, I don't have much of a view. Look forward to any further questions. Metta, Sarah ======== #73310 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Are we responsible for our actions? sarahprocter... Hi Colette (& Elaine), --- colette wrote: > colette: Hi Sarah, long time no triffles huh? Does the infant walk > before it crawls? > ------------------------- ... S: No, we need to crawl first, Colette! ... > > S: Sounds familiar:-) > > colette: my high school class voted me MOST SPACED OUT of the class > of 79. At least I don't feel so alone now. ;) > ---------------------------------- ... S: Lots of spaced out women around here, it seems:-). Just more common, impermanent mental states ;). .... > >S: The great thing (as far as the path of satipatthana > > is concerned) is that it doesn't matter in the slightest! It may be > > inconvenient and boring for others, but sati can arise anytime at > all, > > even when we are (conventionally) forgetful. > > colette: good observation since I'm beginning to think in terms of > memory being associated to "cause and conditions" which I interpret > as your meaning being "conventially". .... S: There is a memory or 'marking' at each moment, even when it's not remembering or marking what we think it should be, like the lost keys! Yes, like all other dhammas, it depends on cause and conditions what remembering is there. ... <...> > As I started this reply the dog was laying on his back and would > twitch. I often ponder what the dog is dreaming of when he twitches. > So I decided to make small noises that I know the dog is conditioned > to hear and respond to, NOISES THAT ONLY I MAKE, THAT SHOW MY > PRESENCE, ETC. and I watched to see if it had an effect of the dog's > twitching, which it did. So, he does remember me when he's sleeping. > So, he does have a consciousness. <....> .... S: Yes, for all living beings, there is consciousness at each moment (even during those forgotten weeks in hospital) and perception or memory at each moment too. It's interesting isn't it? We (and the dog) can be lost in a dream world and in the middle of it, there can be conditions for sounds to be heard like in your example. Changing consciousness all the time... Thanks for joining in the thread, Colette. Metta, Sarah ======= #73311 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip -tandem sarahprocter... Hi Dieter (Sukin, all), Back to your letter #72196 --- Dieter Möller wrote: > D:I think there is always a chance to start again assumed there is a > base for common understanding from which differences can be examined. > Let me please try to express a consens, even it may be a bit boring due > to wellknown facts: > > The base , we agree, is the Buddha Dhamma as presented by the Tipitaka. > Very broad indeed , considering - when I remember correctly - a volume > of 45 big books , not to talk about the recognised commentaries and > subcommentaries. > The essence of all the teaching however , as the Buddha proclaimed , > can be simply stated by : this is suffering, this is the origin ..this > is the end .. this is the path to end suffering, i.e. the 4 Noble > Truths and its perfect penetration which leads us to the aim ( by > the abolishment of its ignorance ). .... S: Good! ... > You ( and Sukinder) pointed out very well the very importance of right > understanding , the first step of the 8 fold Noble Path. .... S: Rather than call it the 'first step of the 8 fold Noble Path', I'd prefer to call it the leading factor of the Path. "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and first indication of wholesome states. (Anguttara Nikaya 10:121") S: The other path factors depend on right understanding and cannot arise without it. ... > However, this is not at the beginning the perfect right understanding > , which one is expected to develop by training of the different path > links . .... S: I agree - the 'perfect right understanding' has to be developed, to be cultivated to be such. However, there has to be a beginning of development without a 'self' doing anything! ... > Similar, like in a sutta mentioned , the gradual learning of base > arithmatics towards the higher one, i.e. understanding in a process of > mundane towards supramundane ( the Holy Noble Path, the Ariyan one) to > be cultivated. > One usually does not start the training with full mindfulness... .... S: No, I agree. Mindfulness has to develop too. It can only develop when right understanding knows what is and is not mindfulness and begins to appreciate that even these mental states are anatta. ... >but > develops it as well among other factors by the 3 fold path training of > sila, samadhi, panna as mentioned in my previous sutta quotes .. > > would be good to know what do you think before going further into detail .... S: My main concern is the insistence on: a) 'One' who does it all. This is the common idea that a self has to follow the path in the beginning. I just don't see it that way. b) Again, I believe it is the development of understanding of all and any dhammas which appear that is important, rather than an idea of doing sila, then samadhi, then panna. I would appreciate hearing any further detail. Let's continue to try and find common bases too! Metta, Sarah ======= #73312 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [2] sarahprocter... Hi Howard, Thx for all your feedback on the extract. Ken H, Nina and others have had a lot more discussion with you, so I won't say much more. I thought Ken H's reading of the extract was very perceptive and he responded to all the points already. (Btw, I don't really see it as a cultural issue at all. Thais find it just as difficult to appreciate the meaning. Yes, the first questioner was Jon.) --- upasaka@... wrote: > > J: After a person dies, death, there is still the same reality of > seeing > > and hearing and so forth. How do we know that? > > ... > > KS: If we do not know this moment, we cannot tell that after death > there > > are also realities like seeing and hearing. But if we think of this > moment > > as not a permanent moment, because seeing is a conditioned > reality...... > > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Yes? This doesn't guarantee by any means a continuation of > experience, > not in any way. .... S: Why do cittas follow one another now? Because of conditions. Why does seeing arise now? Because of conditions, including ignorance which fuels new births. When there is awareness of seeing now, it's evident that it had to arise and had to fall away. No choice in the matter. A moment ago, it was the same. Last week it was the same. Last year....tomorrow, next year....This is all life consists of, different impermanent namas and rupas. Whether we call it this life, last life or next life, it's the same. These are conventional labels for different namas and rupas on and on. ..... > Does not an arahant see that nothing is permanent? So, according > to > Theravadin teaching, must there be continued experience after the > passing of an > arahant? The reasoning is invalid. .... S: No more fuel for continued experience because the key condition for the arising of rebirth consciousness, i.e. ignorance, has been eradicated. No doubt about conditions for the arahant. Anything else I say will be repetition. Thanks again for your helpful comments and discussion, Howard. Good points to raise and discuss. I'll look forward to more. Metta, Sarah ===== #73313 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: >Yes, I was asking about the concentration which is supposed to > accompany path consciousness, which I understood to be termed > "supramundane jhana". But, perhaps I am mistaken about that also. > Maybe Sarah could address this issue? .... S: Thx for including me here. I think Nina answered already. I know you're not a fan of 'U.P.', but you may like to take a look under: 'Jhana - mundane and supramundane' and 'Jhana - Two meanings' Lots of detail there. Simply, supramundane jhana refers to the supramundane mental states at moments of path and fruition consciousness which are always of a degree of strength of the 1st jhana at least. There is never any jhana citta arising at this time, so it is referring to the degree of appana (absorption) concentration which accompanies jhana cittas. This is on account of the object, nibbana. If no prior jhanas have been attained, the degree of appana is that of 1st jhana. If Ist jhana was attained immediately before path consciousness, the degree of appana is again that of 1st jhana. However, if 2nd jhana was attained immediately before path consciousness, the degree of appana is that of 2nd jhana and so on for higher jhanas. As to your other good questions (#73115), yes, the path consciousness is accompanied by the jhana factors of vitakka and so on. However, if 2nd jhana was attained immediately prior to path consciousness (and is a 'base' for path consciousness), then there is no vitakka arising and so on. (see 'Jhana - vitakka, sevenfold path'). These are really deep Abhidhamma questions, James! You also asked if Path consciousness (or supramundane jhana) lasts for one single citta. Yes, it always arises for one citta only. The following Fruition consciousness lasts for two or three cittas. Is there a reference in the suttas? Again, it depends how suttas are read. Much easier to check in something like the Abhidhammattha Sangaha or Vism! Sometimes when we read references to jhana in the suttas, it is to Path consciousness. It always depends how texts are read. Not easy, without the commentaries, I think. Thanks for all your other good posts/series and quotes, James. I particularly liked the quote you gave on Jhana from Vism 1V, 80: "When absoluteness is introduced thus 'quite secluded from sense desires', what is expressed is this: sense desires are certainly incompatible with this jhana; when they exist, it does not occur, just as when there is darkness, there is no lamplight;.....etc" In an absolute sense, there are no people, places, favourable situations and so on. At moments of calm, at moments of kusala (of any kind), there is no attachment at all. So life comes back to this very citta now, whatever the circumstances, in an absolute sense. Whether flying to the States, harassed at work or sitting quietly, there are changing cittas all the time. When there is dana, sila or bhavana, momentarily, they are 'secluded from sense desires'. Thank you particularly for the following (#71849) which always comes as a condition for wise reflection: >"And whilst he goes on thus death is near him as drying up is to rivulets in the summer heat, as falling is to the fruits of trees when the sap reaches their attachments in the morning, as breaking is to clap pots tapped by a mallet, as vanishing is to dew-drops touched by the sun's rays. Hence it is said: `The nights and days go slipping by `As life keeps dwindling steadily `Till mortals'span, like water pools `In failing rills, is all used up' `As there is fear, when fruits are ripe, `That in the morning they will fall, `So mortals are in constant fear, `When they are born, that they will die. `As the fate of pots of clay `Once fashioned by the potter's hand, `Or small or big or baked or raw, `Condemns them to be broken up, `So mortals'life leads but to death' `The dew-drop on the blade of grass `Vanishes when the sun comes up; `Such is the human span of life; `So, mother, do not hinder me' So this death, which comes along with birth, is like a murderer with poised sword. And, like the murderer who applies the sword to the neck, it carries off life and never returns to bring it back. This is why, since death appears like a murderer with poised sword owing to its coming along with birth and carrying off life, it should be recollected as `having the appearance of a murderer'."< ........ S: "And whilst he goes on thus death is near him as drying up is to rivulets in the summer heat...." Lots of summer heat here and you'll see the 'drying up' in Arizona - perhaps it'll remind you of death too! Drop us an e-card or two.... Metta, Sarah ========= #73314 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:53 am Subject: Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... Hi Ken, > I have a slightly different understanding of the process. Regardless > of whatever reality comes into consciousness, sati and panna can know > it as a mere conditioned nama or rupa - with the characteristics > anicca, dukkha and anatta. In that way, they *know* conditioned > existence is unworthy of craving. That is the only way by > which "abandoning and cessation" of craving can come about. ___________________ N: i agree on this process of abandoning and cessation. ___________________ > > My practice is different. It takes place in a single citta. Cittas > come and go in a trillionth of a second, and so, in my practice, > there is no opportunity for doing something to make insight happen. > Insight either happens (because the conditions for its happening are > present) or it doesn't (because the conditions for its happening are > absent). > > I have no control over this practice. Therefore, it is pointless of > me to call it "my" practice. It is the practice taught by the Buddha. _________________ N: I assume you mean present moment, because I think our minds are not sharp enough to exactly be aware of each citta. Yes what you are saying makes sense. But my question is what is activity of mind when it is aware of something. lets take an example, suppose you have anger, at the moment anger arises there is no sati. Let's say after two three moments one becomes aware of anger. now what takes place in mind after such recognition of anger? Does it understands anger by itself, or there is intention to understand it. or does it reflects that it was conditioned reality which have passed (fallen) away. what is the actual process in your way of practice. now let's take another example which is different from emotions. that is sense objects. let's consider some delicious food. when it is being eaten, what takes place. Does the mind understands it, or indulges in the taste, or does it understands it is conditioned reality which has arisen and would fall away. it would be very helpful for me if you explain me the actual process of mind as per your way of understanding. _________________ > N: > Reading tipitaka, listening dhamma, discussing it, contemplating, > thinking, all are intentional acts. But they are effort in 'right > direction'. > ------------------- > > Yes, but for whom are they in the right direction? If I am > thinking, "By studying this Dhamma book I will gain peace and > wisdom," there is the idea of a continuing self, isn't there? That > would not be a single-moment practice. That would be a conventional > practice belonging to the illusory world of people, places > and 'things to do.' And so the effort would be in a *wrong* > direction. _____________________ N: I do not approved presence of motive and desire for wisdom or peace. As per my understanding both of us agree that *effort* is not the way. but probably we differ on degree of intention. i distinguish between effort and intention. to me both are not the same. and it appears to me that you do not approve of any form of intention as well. whereas I do not see any problem with intention. _______________________ > N: > i think same can be applied to practice of sutta. > ---------------------------- > > This is where our opinions differ. In my opinion, the suttas describe > only the gradual method (study and understanding). I am not aware of > any other factors leading to enlightenment. > > I am well aware of additional practices that are found outside the > suttas. For many years I followed instructions to note, "hearing, > hearing" "feeling, feeling" "thinking, thinking" and that kind of > thing. But I was wrongly advised. _____________________ N: actually this boils down to same problem, effort vs. intention. To me effort implies taking positive action, like suppressing anger, or saying harsh words in fit of anger. whereas intention implies attending to something, in order to understand. by instructions in sutta, i do not make positive effort but just direct the mind towards something. it is not a hard action, it is just understanding of process of mind, and five senses. we can do it otherwise as well, (without instructions of any particular sutta), I m sure most of the people in this group must be doing that, but with buddha's words it becomes little easier and comprehensive. So that nothing is left out. its just a matter of one's inclination, nothing like an system etc. I do not do anything like noting the way you describe. ____________________ > N: > Don't you think that Mahasatipatthana sutta is also one of the > instructive sutta. > -------------------------------------- > > No, it describes the practice of satipatthana. Satipatthana occurs in > the latter stages of the gradual method. It is extremely rare and > difficult to attain. It is not something that beginners can attempt > at a moment's notice. > > The sutta opens with a description of the way satipatthana is > practised by jhana meditators who use breath as their object of > concentration. These are the greatest of all practitioners. As > explained in other suttas, only "buddhas and buddhas' sons (chief > disciples)" use breath as their object of jhana. > > Afterwards, the sutta describes the more general ways in which > satipatthana is practised. At no stage is the sutta a set of > instructions; it is purely a description. > > As I was saying before, a set of instructions (something we can do in > order to make insight happen) could not possibly apply to a practice > that takes place in a single (trillionth of a second) citta. _______________________ N: As per my understanding satipatthana also implies directing the mind, and understanding reality of the moment, and neither indulging, nor suppressing, but understanding/watching. Actually i do not see any problem with the way(practice) you have described; that is awareness of what is appearing at citta presently, because all the five senses, khandas, and frames of reference of satipatthana are content of mind. all that is mind. so if you find it easier to be aware and understanding at citta level, that is also worthy. i certainly do not see any fault in that. it's just a matter of inclination. I like to break down and dissect the mind as six senses and khandas, past present and future etc. but ultimately all that is mind. and ultimately mind is citta. so the way you do is also as per texts (as per my understanding). _________________________ > N: > though i understand it is very very very special sutta, and > arising of sati is not intentional, however understanding of > realities cannot be done if intention is totally absent, > -------------------- > > Intention (cetana) is present in every citta, but I think I know what > you mean. You mean that the intention in one citta can influence the > form in which a following citta will appear. So you think there needs > (firstly) to be intention to practise insight, which is followed > (secondly) by insight. > > One problem with that theory is it can exclude the dhammas of the > present moment. If the present moment was not preceded by intention > to practise satipatthana then, by your reckoning, it cannot become > the object of right mindfulness and right understanding. > > As we know from the suttas, all sorts of consciousness (kusala, > akusala and kiriya) can be known as they really are. In other words, > satipatthana is not restricted to formal occasions where there is a > preparatory, calm, specifically-intentioned state of mind. > > I'll stop there for now. I hope I'm not being too argumentative. :-) > > Ken H _____________________ N: some misunderstanding appears here. I think you have formed the impression that i make effort for insight to arise. i talk about intention to understand and more inclined to find the truth. I have no idea of what theories you are talking about. I never heard of such theories. I stay in india and had access to some retreats by goenkaji. But i found certain things were not satisfactory for me, so i started reading sutta. That is the whole history of my understanding of buddhism. It was only after joining this group that i came to know that there are different forms of jhanas, and vipassanas and various monasteries and different versions of buddhism, etc. I m totally unaware of all that. though i have searched little bit on internet, but have no actual understanding. And presently i m quite satisfied with what i have in hand. As per my understanding insight comes by understanding/watching one's own mind. by intention i mean intention to understand reality of the mind body interaction, and applying mind towards that. I do not see any radical difference in what you are saying and what i m doing. probably (earlier) I misunderstood what people on this group are saying. But now i think i m talking of same thing in different language. of course i think still there are some points of differences which i m trying to understand. metta, nidhi #73315 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:38 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner--p.s. scottduncan2 Dear Mike (and Phil), M: "...'conceptual right view': "There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five? "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. One's mind grows serene. "These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma." Scott: Sorry for the delay, Mike. One motherboard later... After reading 'Perfections' I read the Cariyaapi.taka A.t.thakathaa, A Treatise on the Paaramiis (this is in Bh. Bodhi's Brahmajaala Sutta and its Commentaries, p. 271), and came across the following, regarding the perfection of patience: "...And: 'When there is patience, the mind becomes concentrated, all formations appear to reflection as impermanent and suffering; all dhammas as not-self, nibbaana as unconditioned, deathless, peaceful, and sublime, and the Buddha-qualities as endowed with inconceivable and immearsurable potency. Then established in acquiescence in conformity, the groundlessness of all 'I-making' and 'mine-making' becomes evident to reflection thus: 'Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever.'..." In a footnote: "Annulomiya.m khantiya.m .thito. 'Acquiescence in conformity' indicates the stage in the development of insight where the meditator can accept the basic truths of his contemplation without yet having fully apprehended them by mature wisdom. Khanti here signifies the acceptance of difficult to understand doctrines rather than patience in the ordinary sense..." And from p. 247: "...Patience is mentioned after energy:...c)in order to state the causal basis for serenity immediately after the basis for exertion, for restlessness due to excessive activity is abandoned through reflective acquiescence in the Dhamma (dhammanijjhaanakkhanti)..." The footnote: "Dhammanijjhaanakkhanti. The word khanti, ordinarily used to mean patience in the sense of forbearance of the wrongs of others and the endurance of hardships, is sometimes also used to signify the intellectual acceptance of doctrines which are not yet completely clear to understanding. Patience thus becomes a virtue not only of the will but of the intellect as well. It is a 'suspension of disbelief' born of trust, a willingness to acquiesce in propositions baffling or even scandalous to the rational understanding in the confidence that the growth of wisdom will transform this acquiescence into clear and certain knowledge. The compound dhammanijjhaanakhanti seems to indicate an intermediate stage in the process of transformation, where the understanding can accept by way of reflection the article initially assented to in faith, without fully grasping it by immediate insight." Scott: Relevant? I'd say so, and very cool as well. By the way, I'd say 'process of transformation' ought to be read as 'development of pa~n~na' since the notion of transformation misleads and blurs the truth or arising and falling away. Sincerely, Scott. #73316 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Sorry for the delay, the Motherboard fried herself - too much 'Mother's little helper' perhaps... S: "...comments to Antony (#71962) on flashbacks and thoughts of strong cruelty..." Me: "...As to 'techniques' (this is just an opinion, of course): Based on experience, I'm not a great believer in the overall efficacy of attempts to force the products of the mind to be other than they are...such as attempts to deal with psychological 'disturbances' such as intrusive thoughts...The proliferation of the self-help industry is, in my mind, founded on the hopes of everyone concerned that some technique or other can hasten things along..." S: "I was reminded of these comments and also Phil's with regard to particularly unwholesome kinds of attachment when I listened to some of KS's comments which may come up later in the series from Alan's funeral. She was saying that when it's an unusual (visama lobha) as opposed to usual (sama lobha) kind, it can be a block to the development of what is useful, depending on the strength of feeling, because it can block one from association with higher understanding when one always thinks about one's 'unusual' or especially disturbing tendency or accumulation." Scott: The grief reaction is 'unwholesome attachment' par excellence. In the absence of the one to whom one is attached, the strength of the attachment comes to the surface now that this one is gone. It is a massive protest which, if I'm getting the gist of 'visama lobha', qualifies it as an enormous block to the development of understanding. S: "However, listening and considering the dhamma further is the only medicine. The disturbing behaviour has to be conditioned by kamma and accumulations. Better to listen and consider more about dhammas now than to think on and on about these tendencies." Scott: I'm reminded here that the experience of suffering can be decisive support for faith and other kusala dhammas. Me: "This goes back to the whole discussion of hating hate (defilements). Its just more hate and more clinging to hate. I see Dhamma to be other than Psychology. 'Fever born of hate' can be known 'by questioning' or it can be known as dosa and left at that. It will come and go as it will by conditions." S: "...As I said, I'll add a little more on the sama and visama lobha comments when I get to that part of the funeral proceedings..." Scott: I'll look forward to that. I think that real kindness to the bereaved can take forms different than those considered by convention to be 'helpful'. True kindness by someone accumulates to them alone. I think of all the kindess I experienced after the death of my wife with gratitude. Thinking, talking, supporting - all hasten nothing. Grief can be truly attenuated only by understanding, of whatever level, that attachment is akusala. True peace and calm can only arise when some level of understanding, perhaps conditioned by signs of the Dhamma or talk of Dhamma, perceives something of the nature of impermanence. Sincerely, Scott. #73317 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:57 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana- not appropriate for most householders philofillet Hi again James Just re-read my post from ealier today and this sounds really stupid! > For me, > meditation is the mind jumping around until it settles enough for me > to fall asleep. I didn't mean to say that I use meditation to fall asleep, just that sleepiness inevitably settles in really quickly, as soon as the mind settles down a bit. I know all the recommended approaches to sleepiness, of course, but I don't sweat it. I used to think that if I got sleepy all the time it was failed meditation but I don't see it that way any more. There is no failed meditation. Any time we spend getting to know our defilement clogged minds cannot be time wasted. I think my concern with your stressing jhanas so much is that it could condition people to think that if one doesn't come anywhere close to such attainments it is a failed meditation, that it is setting up too much discontent with the simple, common-sense benefits of meditation. (It can be called stress relief, I guess - but I still think it's beneficial. There is no need for all people to go deep into Dhamma, and that includes jhanas, in my book.) Metta, Phil #73318 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt nilovg Dear Scott, no, I do not think this is visama lobha. Just a normal, human reaction. Without trying, sometimes its characteristic can be considered as a conditioned dhamma. As Kh Sujin says, they are all dhammas. That is the main thing: to understand it as just dhamma. For visama lobha, we have to think of what Phil meant. It is more a transgression, something serious. Nina. Op 13-jun-2007, om 14:32 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Scott: The grief reaction is 'unwholesome attachment' par excellence. > In the absence of the one to whom one is attached, the strength of > the attachment comes to the surface now that this one is gone. It is > a massive protest which, if I'm getting the gist of 'visama lobha', > qualifies it as an enormous block to the development of understanding. #73319 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/13/07 12:51:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > In a message dated 6/12/2007 7:55:47 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > I don't get from these quotes what you get at all. C'est la vie! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard > > > > Hi Howard > > How do you know what I get from them? I just posted them and didn't make > any claims on them. But your probably both right and wrong. ;-) > > TG > > ============================ I understood you to take them as support for your energy reductionism. In any case, I agree that all phenomena serveas conditions for others. What we name that isn't so important. With metta, Howard #73320 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY upasaka_howard Hi, Terry - In a message dated 6/13/07 12:57:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi All > > How could the experience of "hardness" arise, if "hardness" did not have a > distinguishable force? > > TG > ==================== Hardness, as all phenomena, is a condition for other phenomena. BTW, who are you addressing here, me or Larry or everyone on this thread? With metta, Howard #73321 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Meditation Tip -tandem upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Dieter & Sukin) - In a message dated 6/13/07 4:28:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Dieter (Sukin, all), > > Back to your letter #72196 > > --- Dieter Möller wrote: > > >D:I think there is always a chance to start again assumed there is a > >base for common understanding from which differences can be examined. > >Let me please try to express a consens, even it may be a bit boring due > >to wellknown facts: > > > >The base , we agree, is the Buddha Dhamma as presented by the Tipitaka. > >Very broad indeed , considering - when I remember correctly - a volume > >of 45 big books , not to talk about the recognised commentaries and > >subcommentaries. > >The essence of all the teaching however , as the Buddha proclaimed , > >can be simply stated by : this is suffering, this is the origin ..this > >is the end .. this is the path to end suffering, i.e. the 4 Noble > >Truths and its perfect penetration which leads us to the aim ( by > >the abolishment of its ignorance ). > .... > S: Good! > ... > >You ( and Sukinder) pointed out very well the very importance of right > >understanding , the first step of the 8 fold Noble Path. > .... > S: Rather than call it the 'first step of the 8 fold Noble Path', I'd > prefer to call it the leading factor of the Path. > > "Bhikkhus, just as the dawn is the forerunner and first > indication of the rising of the sun, so is right view the forerunner and > first indication of wholesome states. > > (Anguttara Nikaya 10:121") > > S: The other path factors depend on right understanding and cannot arise > without it. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that it is the primary factor. However, I also think of the proverbial chicken & egg problem. The development is spiral, and all factors (in some degree) are required for all others. ----------------------------------------------- > ... > >However, this is not at the beginning the perfect right understanding > >, which one is expected to develop by training of the different path > >links . > .... > S: I agree - the 'perfect right understanding' has to be developed, to be > cultivated to be such. However, there has to be a beginning of development > without a 'self' doing anything! -------------------------------------------- Howard: I doubt that any beginning could be pointed to. Life after life after life, with no discernable beginning, and no discernable beginning on the road to awakening. As for self, there IS no self to do anything, and, so, no self ever does do anything. But until full awakening, sense of self does remain, arising again & again & again - constantly reborn. -------------------------------------------- > ... > > >Similar, like in a sutta mentioned , the gradual learning of base > >arithmatics towards the higher one, i.e. understanding in a process of > >mundane towards supramundane ( the Holy Noble Path, the Ariyan one) to > >be cultivated. > >One usually does not start the training with full mindfulness... > .... > S: No, I agree. Mindfulness has to develop too. It can only develop when > right understanding knows what is and is not mindfulness and begins to > appreciate that even these mental states are anatta. --------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm, sounds like a catch-22, Sarah. Pa~n~na depends on sati! ---------------------------------------- > ... > >but > >develops it as well among other factors by the 3 fold path training of > >sila, samadhi, panna as mentioned in my previous sutta quotes .. > > > >would be good to know what do you think before going further into detail > .... > S: My main concern is the insistence on: > > a) 'One' who does it all. This is the common idea that a self has to > follow the path in the beginning. I just don't see it that way. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Everyone speaks that way including you, Sarah. (Who is the "I" you refer to who doesn't see it that way"?) Not everyone takes such speech literally. --------------------------------------- > > b) Again, I believe it is the development of understanding of all and any > dhammas which appear that is important, rather than an idea of doing sila, > then samadhi, then panna. > > I would appreciate hearing any further detail. Let's continue to try and > find common bases too! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======================= With metta, Howard #73322 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:46 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana- not appropriate for most householders avalo1968 Hello James, Let me ask you a question about what you said below: James: What needs to be considered most strongly is the goal. What is the goal of monks and what is the goal of householders? Monks have liberation, nibbana, as their goal. Their lives are focused on this goal. Householders don't have nibbana as a goal (at least most don't). Householders have as a goal to have a more peaceful, pure, and happy life (and rebirth)- but they aren't quite ready to give it all up to nibbana. Householders have loved ones which they don't want to lose and/or feel responsible for. In short, nibbana is not the goal for most householders. Robert A: Is the distinction between householders and monastics so clear cut? I have always felt that both can cultivate the same thing, which is clear seeing. Peace, joy, and liberation all arise from this same source. I don't see why cultivating a peaceful, pure, and happy life conflicts with liberation, for the only way to find peace, purity, and happiness is through seeing the truth, and seeing the truth is liberation. With metta, Robert A. #73323 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:10 am Subject: Ch 3, no 9 nilovg Dear friends, Moggallåna wanted to find out whether Sakka had grasped the meaning of the Buddha’s words and to this end he appeared among the “devas of the Thirtythree”. Sakka, who was equipped and provided with five hundred deva-like musical instruments, was amusing himself. When he saw Moggallåna coming he stopped those instruments and welcomed Moggallåna. Moggallåna then asked Sakka to repeat the Buddha’s words about freedom by the destruction of craving. Sakka answered: I, my good Moggallåna, am very busy, there is much to be done by me; both on my own account there are things to be done, and there are also (still more) things to be done for the devas of the Thirtythree. Further, my good Moggallåna, it was properly heard, properly learnt, properly attended to, properly reflected upon, so that it cannot vanish quickly.... Sakka invited Moggallåna to come and see the delights of his splendid palace. Moggallåna thought that Sakka lived much too indolently and wanted to agitate him. By his supernatural power he made the palace tremble, shake and quake. Moggallåna asked Sakka again to repeat the Buddha’s words and then Sakka did repeat them. We may recognize ourselves in Sakka when he tries to find excuses not to consider the Dhamma. We also are inclined to think at times that we are too busy to develop right understanding of realities, to be aware of nåma and rúpa over and over again, until they are thoroughly understood. When Moggallåna agitated Sakka there were conditions for him to give preponderance to the development of right understanding. Our life is likewise. When we listen to the Dhamma or read the scriptures there can be conditions to give preponderance to the consideration of the Dhamma and the development of right understanding. When there is mindfulness of nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time, they can eventually be known as they are: elements which are non-self. ******** Nina. #73324 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:14 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 2, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the text to which the “Visuddhimagga” refers, in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Salåyatana Vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, The fourth Fifty, Ch 5, The Chapter on the Snake, 197, The Snake) that the Buddha explained by way of similes the disadvantages and danger of conditioned dhammas. He compared the inner åyatanas to an empty village and the outer åyatanas to robbers who plunder the village: “The empty village”, monks,—that is a name for the personal sixfold sense- sphere (inner åyatanas). For if a man, however wise, clever, intelligent he be, searches it through by way of the eye, he finds it empty, finds it void, unoccupied. If he searches it through by way of the tongue... by way of the mind, he finds it empty, finds it void, unoccupied. “The village-plunderers”, monks,—that is a name for the external sixfold sense-sphere (outer åyatanas). For the eye, monks, destroys with entrancing shapes, the ear destroys with entrancing sounds, the nose... the tongue with entrancing savours... the body... the mind destroys with entrancing mind- states.... Acharn Somphon reminded us time and again that we think of “our eyes, our ears”, but in reality they are empty, devoid of “self”. The teaching of the åyatanas pertains to daily life. We attach great importance to our eyes, ears and all the sense-organs, we are attached to seeing, hearing and the other sense-impressions. We are attached to the objects we experience. However, they arise because of their appropriate conditions and they are beyond control. The teaching of the åyatanas makes clear that the experiences through the senses and the mind-door are conditioned. As we read in the “Visuddhimagga”, “it is the absolute rule that eye-consciousness, etc., come into being with the union of eye with visible object.” It is the absolute rule that hearing comes into being with the union of ear and sound, it is the absolute rule that smelling comes into being with the union of nose and odour, and so it is with the other sense-cognitions. It is beneficial to be reminded that we are attached to our eyes and ears, because most of the time we do not realize this. There are åyatanas at this moment: seeing and hearing do not last, they fall away immediately. They are vipåkacittas, results of kamma, but we forget that they are results of kamma which have to arise when it is the right time. ******* Nina. #73325 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:34 am Subject: A Question Pertaining to Consiousness of Mindstates upasaka_howard Hi, all - When there is a losing of consciousness, either when fainting or succumbing to anaesthesia or for any other reason, that very dimming of consciousness is normally experienced, and often quite clearly. How can that be explained? Throughout the process of dimming, various phenomena, presumably, are the objects of consciousness, but with decreasing clarity. The standard Abhidhammic explanation, I believe, is that from time to time during that period of blacking out, the just-passed, dimmed mindstate, or rather, the dimmed nature of that state, becomes the object of consciousness. Now, that is a subtle object, and yet it is observed. Does the mind suddenly "wake up" for that instant, and then resume the dimming, an even greater dimming, next? That seems most unlikely. The way the "passing out experience" APPEARS to occur is that the dimming is observed as it occurs. Inasmuch as switching from a dim state to a brighter one and then back to an even dimmer state as the process of diminishing consciousness is underway makes no sense, this matter seems most unclear to me. Ideas anyone? To put the question more simply: How does consciouness of loss of consciousness occur? (More generally, one can ask how cessations and absences are observed. They ARE observed. In any event, the cessation of consciousness is a dramatic case of this matter and is especially problematical.) With metta, Howard #73326 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY TGrand458@... Hi All To me, "hardness" (I'm not found of that term but since its used so much in this group so be it) is a dynamic occurrence which alters phenomena in accordance to conditional qualities. The key term is dynamic and dynamic entails energy IMO. It simply means phenomena are moving and interacting. To me there's nothing profound here, its just basic common sense. TG #73327 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Repost -- ENERGY TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/13/2007 7:56:59 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: I understood you to take them as support for your energy reductionism. In any case, I agree that all phenomena serveas conditions for others. What we name that isn't so important. With metta, Howard Hi Howard That's fine with me. BTW, "Reductionism" is not what I do with energy. I do not think to myself for example...All is energy so therefore I understand conditions. Not at all. To accuse it as 'reductionism' is the same as me accusing someone who said "all conditioned things are part of conditionality" of reductionism. IMO, if a mind thinks that "conditions are interacting" without awareness that "forces are being applied," then I think they have missed some good "conditionality insight." TG #73328 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Sarah I'm breaking this post into pieces because its getting too long and hard to follow... In a message dated 6/13/2007 1:35:28 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Two: It > also indicates > in that phenomenal impermanence is not "arising and immediate falling > away" > due to "its own characteristics. .... S: Elsewhere the Buddha talks about the speed of which such dhammas do arise and fall away and how he cannot give an analogy to show just how fast this is. Hi Sarah If you can find this quote, please provide it. I do not think it says what you think it says. There are two quotes that come to mind. Oops, I found one... “Monks, I know not of any other thing so quick to change as the mind: insomuch as it is no easy thing to illustrate how quick to change it is.â€? (The Buddha . . . GS, vo1. 1, pg. 7 – 8) "Quick to change" is a far cry from "arising and immediately falling away." Unless the translation is terrible, this accords with my idea of "altering" and "transforming" conditions....rather than your idea of "dhammas arising and immediately falling away." NOTE to Colette, this indicates the "different speeds" I was referring to in another post. The other quote is where he says that it would be difficult to provide an analogy to explain...then proceeds to provide a whole bunch of analogies anyway. In both cases above, he is not talking about "dhammas" in general. If you can find any quote supporting your case, maybe you can show me in error. I won't hold my breath though. ;-) TG #73329 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 6/13/2007 1:35:28 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: If something has > "its > own" nature, then its impermanence need not depend on conditions. If > something is dependent on conditions, then it does not have "its own" > nature. .... S: All sankhara dhammas have the characteristic/S: All sankhara dhamma they all depend on conditions for their arising. I don't see any conflict in this. It's 101 Dhamma. Take sound which appears now. If there were no conditions for it to arise, it wouldn't. Does it last even for a finger-snap? No. As soon as it arises, it falls away. "Dhammas" have no characteristics of their own. A "dhamma" has no characteristic of impermanence regarding "itself." Impermanence is due to "nature of conditionality." Not to the 'nature of "a dhamma."' A "dhamma" does not exist in and of itself. There is no such thing as "a dhamma." Aggregates and elements are defined and separated merely for the purposes of analysis. They represent different qualities of conditionality. The analysis is for the purpose of understanding the principles and actuality of conditionality...those principles and actuality are impermanence, affliction, and no-self. Whatever appears ... appears due to conditions, and not due to "dhammas." There are no individual things "dhammas." To think so is to grasp after delusions. These experiences are just different qualities of conditionality. These qualities/experiences have no essence of their own. They are continually transforming due to interaction and combining of conditions. Regarding your above on sound... Whatever sound is heard is experienced in accordance with its supporting conditions. If the supporting condition persist, then the sound will persist. If I honk a horn and hold the horn down, the sound will continue because the conditions generating it are continuing. Everything in that process is continuously altering yes, but arising and immediately falling away? No. TG #73330 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 6/13/2007 1:35:28 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: The falling away is the characteristic of impermanence. This is the meaning. The conditions are impermanent dhammas too. For example, one condition for sound to be heard is contact (phassa) which accompanies hearing consciousness. The phassa is also impermanent. As it falls away, sound is no longer 'contacted' or heard. Because of other conditions, the sound lasts longer than the hearing before it falls away, but it's still very, very brief and impermanent. TG: I don't quite follow you here but -- the elements that appear, appear in the way "they" appear, due to the myriad of qualities/conditions that support them. Whether a condition is coalescence oriented, firmness oriented, friction oriented, or dispersion oriented; will depend on how conditions are interacting, combining, mixing. This gives the different things we perceive different qualities, different momentums, different inertia's. Mentality, physicality, -- its all conditionality. (Nice poem huh?) I'm going to have to use that as a Topic Heading later. LOL But to use Howard's (or maybe the Buddha's) "reductionism," this can be reduced to impermanence, affliction, no-self. TG #73331 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, TG (and Sarah) - In a message dated 6/13/07 1:37:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Sarah > > In a message dated 6/13/2007 1:35:28 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > > If something has > >"its > >own" nature, then its impermanence need not depend on conditions. If > >something is dependent on conditions, then it does not have "its own" > >nature. > .... > S: All sankhara dhammas have the characteristic/S: All sankhara dhamma > they all depend on conditions for their arising. I don't see any conflict > in this. It's 101 Dhamma. > > Take sound which appears now. If there were no conditions for it to arise, > it wouldn't. Does it last even for a finger-snap? No. As soon as it > arises, it falls away. > > > > "Dhammas" have no characteristics of their own. A "dhamma" has no > characteristic of impermanence regarding "itself." Impermanence is due to > "nature of > conditionality." Not to the 'nature of "a dhamma."' ------------------------------------- Howard: What is impermanence? Just concept. Conditioned phenomena are impermanent in that they don't remain the same, or, in fact, when any aspect changes, don't remain at all - depends on how one looks at it. If "something has changed", then what was originally present no longer is, and, moreover, given that nothing is a thing-in-itself, but a thing-in-relation - in relation not only to prior conditions but to all else, in fact, that coexists with it, then it might well make sense to say that nothing remains at all for any time at all. -------------------------------------- Howard: But those "principles" are even less "real" than the concrete phenomena that are impermanent, not-self, and unsatisfying. --------------------------------------- > > A "dhamma" does not exist in and of itself. There is no such thing as "a > dhamma." Aggregates and elements are defined and separated merely for the > purposes of analysis. They represent different qualities of > conditionality. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: A concrete quality is more "real" than a principle of conditionality. Every quality (or phenomenon or dhamma) arises conditionally and serves as a condition for mant things. But it is no more a quality "of conditionality" than a quality "of grasping" or a quality "of craving" or of anything else. I agree, though, with what you say about separateness. We call various objects of consciousness "hardness" because we conceptually identify them due to similarity in "experiential flavor", but no two moments of "hardness" are the same. -------------------------------------- The > > analysis is for the purpose of understanding the principles and actuality > of > conditionality...those principles and actuality are impermanence, > affliction, and no-self. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I would say the purpose is to induce us avoid attachment to phenomena by seeing that they don't last, don't satisfy, and don't self-exist. ---------------------------------------- > > Whatever appears ... appears due to conditions, and not due to "dhammas." ---------------------------------------- Howard: What are these "conditions"? Some other category of existent? ---------------------------------------- > There are no individual things "dhammas." To think so is to grasp after > delusions. These experiences are just different qualities of > conditionality. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what such a thing is. What is the "thing" called "conditionality" that there are qualities of? Now, rupas are qualities.The operations of recognizing, feeling, recalling, and so on are not qualities, however. ------------------------------------------ > These qualities/experiences have no essence of their own. They are > continually > transforming due to interaction and combining of conditions. ------------------------------------------ Howard: No phenomenon (aka dhamma) has essence or own-being. ----------------------------------------- > > Regarding your above on sound... Whatever sound is heard is experienced in > accordance with its supporting conditions. If the supporting condition > persist, then the sound will persist. If I honk a horn and hold the horn > down, the > sound will continue because the conditions generating it are continuing. > Everything in that process is continuously altering yes, but arising and > immediately falling away? No. > > TG > ======================= With metta, Howard #73332 From: "m_nease" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:23 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner--p.s. m_nease Hi Scott (and Nina, Sarah and Phil below), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: Welcome back-- ... > The footnote: "Dhammanijjhaanakkhanti. The word khanti, ordinarily > used to mean patience in the sense of forbearance of the wrongs of > others and the endurance of hardships, is sometimes also used to > signify the intellectual acceptance of doctrines which are not yet > completely clear to understanding. Patience thus becomes a virtue not > only of the will but of the intellect as well. It is a 'suspension of > disbelief' born of trust, a acquiescence > into clear and certain knowledge. The compound > dhammanijjhaanakhanti seems to indicate an intermediate stage in the > process of transformation, where the understanding can accept by way of > reflection the article initially assented to in faith, without fully > grasping it by immediate insight." > > Scott: Relevant? I'd say so, and very cool as well. Perfectly relevant thanks, Scott. As often happens I find I'm strongly inclined to agree with BB's note but with the reservation that it's his interpretation rather than his translation of the text. In other words it's just the sort of verification I've been looking for but still not (directly) from a discourse or even a commentary or subcommentary. Still, "'suspension of disbelief' born of trust" and especially "willingness to acquiesce in propositions baffling or even scandalous to the rational understanding in the confidence that the growth of wisdom will transform this..." is nicely put as a way to proceed with parts of the texts I'm not presently able to grasp clearly or to reconcile with my own views. > By the way, I'd > say 'process of transformation' ought to be read as 'development of > pa~n~na' since the notion of transformation misleads and blurs the > truth or arising and falling away. I'm inclined to agree that yours is a preferable expression, though the best would be one found in similar contexts in both the abhidhamma- and sutta-pitakas. Anyway nice work finding this and hope I haven't been too picky. Nina, Sarah and Phil, please excuse my delay in responding to your posts. I'm a bit under the weather and the cogs aren't turning very well--I'll get back to you soon. Thanks for your patience. mike #73333 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:55 am Subject: a meditation tip, tandem. nilovg Hi Howard, I would like to butt in because this reminds me of our previous discussions on what is sati. ---------- Sarah: I agree - the 'perfect right understanding' has to be developed, to be > cultivated to be such. However, there has to be a beginning of development > without a 'self' doing anything! -------------------------------------------- Howard: I doubt that any beginning could be pointed to. Life after life after life, with no discernable beginning, and no discernable beginning on the road to awakening. As for self, there IS no self to do anything, and, so, no self ever does do anything. But until full awakening, sense of self does remain, arising again & again & again - constantly reborn. -------- N: Yes, there often is an idea of I see, my seeing, my awareness. However, there can also be moments without such an idea. At the moment of kusala citta the citta is pure, no sense of self. So it is with sati of the level of satipatthana. When genuine sati arises, just for a moment, it does so with kusala citta and at that short moment there is no sense of self. That is why it is important not to try to induce sati, that will not be genuine sati. When it arises it does so unexpectedly, and then it will be known: yes, this is sati. That is the way to know the difference between the moments with sati and without sati. That is the way it can develop because of its own conditions. ------- Sarah: It can only develop when > right understanding knows what is and is not mindfulness and begins to > appreciate that even these mental states are anatta. --------------------------------------- Howard: Hmm, sounds like a catch-22, Sarah. Pa~n~na depends on sati! ------ N: We have to discern different degrees of pa~n~naa. Sati of the level of satipatthana arises with pa~n~naa, that is right understanding what is and is not mindfulness, as Sarah said. It also must know what the object of satipatthana is: a nama or rupa appearing now. Sati sampaja~n~na develops throughout the stages of insight. You say: Pa~n~na depends on sati and that is also true. When there is true awareness of one nama or rupa at a time, understanding of that reality develops. Sati and pa~n~naa mutually condition one another, from the beginning on and also in the process of further development. The objects sati is aware of, appear because of their own conditions. I think that this is an important matter to remember. We should 'let' them come, not doing anything, we can't anyway. This will help us to have more understanding of anatta, not merely in theory. For instance, there may be a moment of a beginning awareness followed by gladness. That is a sure sign of attachment. Pa~n~naa has to know and sati has to be aware of such a moment too. Otherwise we deviate from the right Path. Nina. #73334 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) nilovg Hi TG, Op 12-jun-2007, om 2:13 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > Seeing "the eye" (for example) "as it really is" is "seeing" the > conditionality nature of the eye. Seeing its conditional nature one > sees with insight > that it is empty, impermanent, affliction, and no-self. This is > seeing it as > it really is. ---------- N: you go too fast. First you have to know what seeing is, the development of the stages of insight are according to a certain order. You will ask: where in the suttas this is said. The suttas were clear for people at the Buddha's time, but for us now, we are of blunt faculties and need more details: from the Abh. and Commentaries. We read in the suttas about clear comprehension, but for us now we need to know that this is developed by insight in stages. Also the Path of Discrimination gives us details about insight. This belongs to the Khuddaka Nikaaya. Before learning the Dhamma I had no idea what seeing is. I always thought of: I see a tree. I did not know that there are many different cittas experiencing different objects in different processes. I did not know that seeing is different from thinking of what is seen, recognizing it. At this moment I talk to you about characteristics without having to use the term characteristic. TG: The elements are tools to use, and then to discard ... when the mind is no longer attached to them as "individual things worth grasping after. ------- N: To discard? Understanding has to be developed of elements. That will lead to detachment from them. Do not forget understanding! -------------- TG: quotes N: First we have to be sure about characteristic: it is not theory. Then we shall also understand (I mean not only in theory) that dependent on visible object and eyesense seeing arises. We find this in many suttas. ......................................... NEW TG We find WHAT in many Suttas? I find these types of above compositions of yours to be very vague and misleading. ------ N: Perhaps I was not clear in my wording. I meant: we find in many suttas: dependent on visible object and eyesense seeing arises. ------- TG: They ARE self serving for your viewpoint. But they MIX what's in the Suttas with your own views and therefore they DO NOT represent what's in the Suttas. It is merely the last fragment starting from "dependent" you find in the Suttas. But the stuff that precedes it is arbitrary. ------ N: Not my own views for sure. See the Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Commentaries. Path of Discrimination, about the All: Eye is to be directly known, visible object is to be directly known, eye-consciousness is to be directly known... This is a quote from SIV 15ff. All dhammas have to be directly known, not just in theory. That means: the presently arisen dhamma, what else could be directly known. When it is not present there cannot be direct, immediate understanding of it. There will only be speculation. Nina. #73335 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 6/13/2007 12:20:50 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: What is impermanence? Just concept. .................................................. NEW TG: Nope, energies are interacting. (I knew you'd like that.) ;-) ................................................. Conditioned phenomena are impermanent in that they don't remain the same, or, in fact, when any aspect changes, don't remain at all - depends on how one looks at it. If "something has changed", then what was originally present no longer is, and, moreover, given that nothing is a thing-in-itself, but a thing-in-relation - in relation not only to prior conditions but to all else, in fact, that coexists with it, then it might well make sense to say that nothing remains at all for any time at all. -------------------------------------- ........................................................... NEW TG: I agree with all of that! ............................................... Howard: But those "principles" are even less "real" than the concrete phenomena that are impermanent, not-self, and unsatisfying. --------------------------------------- ............................................ NEW TG: Principles here can apply both to the "phenomenal mechanics/ramifications" and to the concept about the same. ......................................... > > A "dhamma" does not exist in and of itself. There is no such thing as "a > dhamma." Aggregates and elements are defined and separated merely for the > purposes of analysis. They represent different qualities of > conditionality. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: A concrete quality is more "real" than a principle of conditionality. .................................... NEW TG: "Concrete quality." Not sure there is such a thing. ;-) Do you mean... An actual occurrence is more actual than the idea of it? OK. But the "idea of it" is an actual occurrence so it is just as actual at that time. Wasn't the Buddha smart not to get into all of this? LOL ....................................... Every quality (or phenomenon or dhamma) arises conditionally and serves as a condition for mant things. But it is no more a quality "of conditionality" than a quality "of grasping" or a quality "of craving" or of anything else. I agree, though, with what you say about separateness. We call various objects of consciousness "hardness" because we conceptually identify them due to similarity in "experiential flavor", but no two moments of "hardness" are the same. -------------------------------------- ........................................ NEW TG: Conditionality is the "happening." The details (elements) are the way it is happening that moment. The elements and conditionality are the same thing. But the elements are not "separate things with their own characteristics" or things that contain "their own nature" to arise and immediately fall away. The elements are "just along for the ride." I like that. ......................................... The > > analysis is for the purpose of understanding the principles and actuality > of > conditionality. conditionality...those principles and actuali > affliction, and no-self. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I would say the purpose is to induce us avoid attachment to phenomena by seeing that they don't last, don't satisfy, and don't self-exist. --------------------------------------------- ............................................... Your statement highlights the result of insight and is closer to the goal. Undeniably true. .......................................... > > Whatever appears ... appears due to conditions, and not due to "dhammas." ---------------------------------------- Howard: What are these "conditions"What are these "conditions" .......................................... NEW TG: Nope. Its just the happening. (I'm getting very hippie and I'm too young to be a hippie.) LOL Just repeating -- The elements and conditionality are the same thing. But the elements are not "separate things with their own characteristics" or things that contain "their own nature" to arise and immediately fall away. The elements are "just along for the ride." .......................................... ---------------------------------------- > There are no individual things "dhammas." To think so is to grasp after > delusions. These experiences are just different qualities of > conditionality. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what such a thing is. What is the "thing" called "conditionality" that there are qualities of? Now, rupas are qualities.The operations of recognizing, feeling, recalling, and so on are not qualities, however. ------------------------------------------ ......................................... NEW TG: Don't follow you here. I would identify all of the above as qualities. ................................... > These qualities/experienc These qualities/experiences have no esse > continually > transforming due to interaction and combining of conditions. ------------------------------------------ Howard: No phenomenon (aka dhamma) has essence or own-being. .......................................... NEW TG: Correct. That was my meaning. TG OUT #73336 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 9:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Ch 3, no 9 rameshat27 Hi Nina, N:-"We may recognize ourselves in Sakka when he tries to find excuses not to consider the Dhamma. We also are inclined to think at times that we are too busy to develop right understanding of realities, to be aware of nåma and rúpa over and over again, until they are thoroughly understood. When Moggallåna agitated Sakka there were conditions for him to give preponderance to the development of right understanding. Our life is likewise. When we listen to the Dhamma or read the scriptures there can be conditions to give preponderance to the consideration of the Dhamma and the development of right understanding. When there is mindfulness of nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time, they can eventually be known as they are: elements which are non-self." R:- Yes ..the conclusion is very true...contemplation of dhamma is one of the thing to be learnt by every one...I remember one of the lecture delivered by Samdhang Rinpoche.. in that lecture..he told that vippassana or meditation or sati, are not the things to do morning and in the evening only..but u have to contemplate these things not in the morning or evening, but throughout 24 hours...sati should be developed..he talked abt the walking meditation also..these things can be developed by cultivating the mindfullness of nama and rupa...but for the samsaric people the contemplation upto this level could not be followed...but the people who had done the renounciation of samsaric pleasure..can able to do ..eventually samsaric people also come to know if they follow the dhamma deligentaly tht elements which are non-self...that is "ANNATTA" ..and becomes happy... thanks for such nice information... with metta ramesh #73337 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 7:32 am Subject: RE: [dsg] A Basic Question About Mind-Door Processes dacostacharles Hi Howard Are you talking about memories? - These are mind door events. "When the eye sees something, all it can distinguish is shape and color. The eye can only see that this is roundish and reddish with some yellow. But because you've seen such a thing many times before, you might have a label for it (e.g., Apple). The mind says "apple" and then the mind might continue, "ummm, I think I want one." That's the mind talking. But if a baby sees it, he may try playing with it. He doesn't know it is food. He might think it's a ball because he's familiar with ball. That's his perception of it. The eye sees only shape and color, but perception has the conditioning of memory (mind-door objects). Take seeing a clock: 1. Somebody who hasn't got one might think, "I want one like that too." Or 2. Somebody who has a better one might think, "Mine is much more valuable." Ego is arising immediately, asserting its desires, concoctions, and/or feelings. In reality, perception creates "the thinking processes." which again is mind-door. If you are talking about, e.g., "Seeing" an apple to "desiring" it, and "craving and cling" to it when you discover you can't have it? I was taught that the sense gate stops at sensing and awareness of what is sensed. 1. The Aggregate of Form (i.e., eye-gate sees) senses the object, 2. The Aggregates of Feelings, Perception, and Intellect take over, but in the mind. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... <....> I appreciate your trying to answer this, Charles. What you say sounds plausible, butI don't think that is the Abhidhamma position. The recognizing, feeling, and so on occur in the 5-sense-door cittas, not just mind-door. So, how to distinguish mind-door observation of a rupa from its prior sensing escapes me. <....> #73338 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) TGrand458@... Hi Nina! In a message dated 6/13/2007 12:52:26 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi TG, Op 12-jun-2007, om 2:13 heeft _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) het volgende geschreven: > Seeing "the eye" (for example) "as it really is" is "seeing" the > conditionality nature of the eye. Seeing its conditional nature one > sees with insight > that it is empty, impermanent, affliction, and no-self. This is > seeing it as > it really is. ---------- N: you go too fast. First you have to know what seeing is, the development of the stages of insight are according to a certain order. You will ask: where in the suttas this is said. The suttas were clear for people at the Buddha's time, but for us now, we are of blunt faculties and need more details: from the Abh. and Commentaries. ................................................. NEW TG: Just seems to me that ever since the commentaries have appeared that a whole lot less people are becoming enlightened. (That would have happened anyway but I think the commentaries may have expedited it.) LOL Although a Super Genius might be able to handle the details of the abhidhamma and collate them systematically so that the principles of conditionality were understood and detachment ensued; most of us will probably get endlessly bogged down and stuck in those details. Not too much detail, and not too little detail. And make sure that the "details" are not mis-read as "things of themselves with their own characteristics." This to me is a fatal flaw. ........................................... We read in the suttas about clear comprehension, but for us now we need to know that this is developed by insight in stages. Also the Path of Discrimination gives us details about insight. This belongs to the Khuddaka Nikaaya. Before learning the Dhamma I had no idea what seeing is. I always thought of: I see a tree. I did not know that there are many different cittas experiencing different objects in different processes. .................................. NEW TG: IMO, and from what I've gathered from your own modest statements, this still isn't something "you know." Its just something you've read in a book and believe. .................................. I did not know that seeing is different from thinking of what is seen, recognizing it. At this moment I talk to you about characteristics without having to use the term characteristic. ..................................... NEW TG: Trying to subliminally brainwash me is it? ;-) ................................................. TG: The elements are tools to use, and then to discard ... when the mind is no longer attached to them as "individual things worth grasping after. ------- N: To discard? Understanding has to be developed of elements. That will lead to detachment from them. Do not forget understanding! ...................................... NEW TG: Discard in the sense of detach. Agreed that we do not need to forget our understanding. My statement was in reference to the simile of the raft.. .............................................. -------------- TG: quotes N: First we have to be sure about characteristic: it is not theory. Then we shall also understand (I mean not only in theory) that dependent on visible object and eyesense seeing arises. We find this in many suttas. ......................................... NEW TG We find WHAT in many Suttas? I find these types of above compositions of yours to be very vague and misleading. ------ N: Perhaps I was not clear in my wording. I meant: we find in many suttas: dependent on visible object and eyesense seeing arises. ------- TG: They ARE self serving for your viewpoint. But they MIX what's in the Suttas with your own views and therefore they DO NOT represent what's in the Suttas. It is merely the last fragment starting from "dependent" you find in the Suttas. But the stuff that precedes it is arbitrary. ------ N: Not my own views for sure. See the Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga, Commentaries. Path of Discrimination, about the All: Eye is to be directly known, visible object is to be directly known, eye-consciousness is to be directly known... This is a quote from SIV 15ff. .............................................. NEW TG: # 1 Views that you acquire from texts you agree with are still your views. # 2 Directly know as what? Do the Suttas say -- Directly known as "ultimate realities with their own characteristics"? No they do not. Rather, the Suttas say they should be directly known as impermanent, afflicting, no-self. .................................................... All dhammas have to be directly known, not just in theory. That means: the presently arisen dhamma, what else could be directly known. When it is not present there cannot be direct, immediate understanding of it. There will only be speculation. .................................................. NEW TG: It seems to me that there is a great deal of speculative overlay, about the nature of "dhammas," that has been infused into this "direct experience" you speak of. TG OUT #73339 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/13/07 2:52:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > The suttas were clear > for people at the Buddha's time, but for us now, we are of blunt > faculties and need more details: from the Abh. and Commentaries. ====================== So, Nina, the human race was brilliant circa 500 BCE, but now we are all addle-brained? I don't buy that for a second. With metta, Howard #73340 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/13/07 4:30:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Wasn't the Buddha smart not to get into all of this? LOL > =================== YES! (And aren't WE foolish!) In fact, along these lines, I've decided to cut down on the out-of-control extent of my posting and devote myself to really attaining jhanas. (Yes, DSG-ers, I intend to purposefully pursue the jhanas! LOL!) With metta, Howard #73341 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] a meditation tip, tandem. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/13/07 2:47:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > When genuine sati arises, > just for a moment, it does so with kusala citta and at that short > moment there is no sense of self. > That is why it is important not to try to induce sati, that will not > be genuine sati. When it arises it does so unexpectedly, and then it > will be known: yes, this is sati. That is the way to know the > difference between the moments with sati and without sati. That is > the way it can develop because of its own conditions. > ====================== Where do "it's own" conditions come from, Nina? It seems to me that you recommend never volitionally acting in any way. But, of course, we DO, and if we did not we would just die. With metta, Howard #73342 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Basic Question About Mind-Door Processes upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 6/13/07 5:05:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > Hi Howard > > > > Are you talking about memories? - These are mind door events. -------------------------------------- Howard: Charles, you've quoted nothing. So, I don't know what you are replying to. (Yes, memories, or, better, "remembering", is a mind-door operation.) -------------------------------------- > > > > "When the eye sees something, all it can distinguish is shape and color. The > eye can only see that this is roundish and reddish with some yellow. But > because you've seen such a thing many times before, you might have a label > for it (e.g., Apple). The mind says "apple" and then the mind might > continue, "ummm, I think I want one." That's the mind talking. But if a baby > sees it, he may try playing with it. He doesn't know it is food. He might > think it's a ball because he's familiar with ball. That's his perception of > it. > > The eye sees only shape and color, but perception has the conditioning of > memory (mind-door objects). Take seeing a clock: > > 1. Somebody who hasn't got one might think, "I want one like that too." > Or > 2. Somebody who has a better one might think, "Mine is much more > valuable." ---------------------------------------- Howard: Uh, okay. (I think that the Abhidhammists might differ with regard to *seeing* shapes, though they would agree that shapes are cognized.) ------------------------------------- > > > > Ego is arising immediately, asserting its desires, concoctions, and/or > feelings. In reality, perception creates "the thinking processes." which > again is mind-door. > > > > If you are talking about, e.g., "Seeing" an apple to "desiring" it, and > "craving and cling" to it when you discover you can't have it? ----------------------------------- Howard: Charles, I don't know what this is in reference to. Sorry. ---------------------------------- > > > > I was taught that the sense gate stops at sensing and awareness of what is > sensed. > > 1. The Aggregate of Form (i.e., eye-gate sees) senses the object, ------------------------------------ Howard: Rupas "sense" the object? The sense-door rupas are doorways, or points of tranmission, if that's what you mean. I would agree with that. ------------------------------------ > > 2. The Aggregates of Feelings, Perception, and Intellect take over, but in > the mind. > > > > > > Charles DaCosta > ======================== Charles, I'm not sure why you wrote this to me in particular. Myapologies if I am missing something. With metta, Howard #73343 From: connie Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:49 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (59) nichiconn dear friends, 7. Sattakanipaato 2. Caalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 2 of 6: txt: Imaa pana tissopi bhaginiyo "dhammasenaapati pabbajii"ti sutvaa "na hi nuuna so orako dhammavinayo, na saa orikaa pabbajjaa, yattha amhaaka.m ayyo pabbajito"ti ussaahajaataa tibbacchandaa assumukha.m rudamaana.m ~naatiparijana.m pahaaya pabbaji.msu. Pabbajitvaa ca gha.tentiyo vaayamantiyo nacirasseva arahatta.m paapu.ni.msu. Arahatta.m pana patvaa nibbaanasukhena phalasukhena viharanti. Pruitt: Then these three sisters heard that the General of the Doctrine had gone forth. They thought, "Surely that is not an inferior Doctrine and Discipline, that is not an inferior going forth in which our venerable [brother] has gone forth." They became full of energy, very eager and abandoned their circle of weeping relatives with their tearful faces and went forth. After going forth, striving and making effort, in a very short time they attained Arahatship. Then having attained Arahatship, they dwelt in the happiness of quenching and in the happiness of the fruition state. RD: Now, when the three heard that their brother had left the world for the Order, they said: 'This can be no ordinary system, nor ordinary renunciation, if one like our brother have followed it!' And full of desire and longing, they too renounced the world, putting aside their weeping kinsfolk and attendants. Thereupon, with striving and endeavour, they attained Arahantship, and abode in the bliss of Nibbana. ====tbc, connie. more on 'mother saariputta': www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/sa/saariputta.htm #73344 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:33 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,164 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 164. The former of these [two states of consciousness] is called 'death' (cuti) because of falling (cavana), and the latter is called 'rebirth-linking' (pa.tisandhana) because of linking (pa.tisandhaana) across the gap separating the beginning of the next becoming. But it should be understood that it has neither come here from the previous becoming nor has it become manifest without the kamma, the formations, the pushing, the objective field, etc., as cause. ******************** 164. ettha ca purima.m cavanato cuti. pacchima.m bhavantaraadipa.tisandhaanato pa.tisandhiiti vuccati. tadeta.m naapi purimabhavaa idhaagata.m, naapi tato kammasa"nkhaaranativisayaadihetu.m vinaa paatubhuutanti veditabba.m. #73345 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:43 pm Subject: Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) philofillet Hi Nina, Howard and all Sorry to "pile on", but this reminds me that it is something I often heard from Acharn Sujin that I never have heard anywhere else. Is there any textual support for it (for example, the Buddha predicting that people would become less capable of understanding his teaching) or latter commentaries that support such a view? I suppose it could be true, but it is also stated with such certainty by Acharn Sujin and her students. Why? Most longer suttas are very complex but many are very clear and don't need commentarial clarification. I think the brief commentarial notes learned monks such as BB provide are sufficient in most cases. Metta, Phi --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 6/13/07 2:52:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vangorko@... writes: > > > The suttas were clear > > for people at the Buddha's time, but for us now, we are of blunt > > faculties and need more details: from the Abh. and Commentaries. > ====================== > So, Nina, the human race was brilliant circa 500 BCE, but now we are > all addle-brained? I don't buy that for a second. > > With metta, #73346 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/13/2007 4:22:57 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: In a message dated 6/13/07 4:30:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) writes: > Wasn't the Buddha smart not to get into all of this? LOL > ============ ====== YES! (And aren't WE foolish!) In fact, along these lines, I've decided to cut down on the out-of-control extent of my posting and devote myself to really attaining jhanas. (Yes, DSG-ers, I intend to purposefully pursue the jhanas! LOL!) .............................. NEW TG: That will be the day! LOL BTW, I'll be out of town all next week so that ought to help get rid of some of the riff-raff that's been going on in DSG for awhile. :-) TG OUT #73347 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant' (ENERGY) TGrand458@... Hi Phil and All In a message dated 6/13/2007 6:43:53 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Sorry to "pile on", but this reminds me that it is something I often heard from Acharn Sujin that I never have heard anywhere else. Is there any textual support for it (for example, the Buddha predicting that people would become less capable of understanding his teaching) or latter commentaries that support such a view? I suppose it could be true, but it is also stated with such certainty by Acharn Sujin and her students. Why? Most longer suttas are very complex but many are very clear and don't need commentarial clarification. I think the brief commentarial notes learned monks such as BB provide are sufficient in most cases. Metta, Phi ................................ TG: I agree about understanding the Suttas without over-extending and reliance on commentaries. Being a modern day dim-wit though, I have to read them over and over and over. I think only a small part of my understanding of the Suttas comes from secondary sources; the majority of understanding comes from what the Suttas "internally" provide. That said, I do appreciate the few good secondary source materials that have helped understand what is in the Suttas. But although great works like the Visuddhimagga and Manual of Abhidhamma are magnificent masterpieces (even if possibly problematical, especially in the latter case), they still pale in comparison to the Suttas...which to me is the greatest recorded masterpiece of human thought. I think the 500 year prediction of "true dhamma" disappearing is mostly due to what the Buddha figured would be a corruption of the Dhamma/teachings...not the mental incapacity of the human race. Let's see...when did the commentaries take effect? LOL TG #73348 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:16 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner--p.s. philofillet Hi Mike I threw a lot of babble at you. Please don't feel obliged to try to make sense of it all. Unless there is something else that grabs you, perhaps we could discuss that "island of refuge" point. I think it might be an area where mundane vs deeper right view can be explored. Metta, Phil > Nina, Sarah and Phil, please excuse my delay in responding to your > posts. I'm a bit under the weather and the cogs aren't turning very > well--I'll get back to you soon. Thanks for your patience. > > mike > #73349 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:21 pm Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner--p.s. scottduncan2 Dear Mike (et al), Hope you are feeling better. M: "...As often happens I find I'm strongly inclined to agree with BB's note but with the reservation that it's his interpretation rather than his translation of the text. In other words it's just the sort of verification I've been looking for but still not (directly) from a discourse or even a commentary or subcommentary." Scott: I appreciate the care you allow in this particular study. I like learning this way. Thank you very much. Try this: Sammohavinodanii: 2075. "...Anulomika.m khanti.m ('conformable acceptance') and so on are all synonyms for understanding. For that is in conformity since it conforms by showing non-opposition to the five reasons for the aforesaid sphere of work and so on. Likewise, it is in conformity since it conforms with behaviour beneficial to beings, it conforms to the Truth of the Path and it conforms owing to conforming to the highest meaning, nibbaana. And it accepts (khamati), bears, is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance (khanti). 'It sees' is di.t.thi ('view'). 'It chooses' is ruci ('choice'). 'It perceives with the senses' is muti ('sensing'). 'It observes' is pekkho ('observance'). And all these things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied (nijjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with impermanence, suffering and no-self, accept (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); thus it is dhammanijjhaanakkhanti ('acceptance of study things'). Scott: This possibly fits the bill, although not entirely perhaps. Sincerely, Scott. #73350 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:31 pm Subject: Very straight forward these days. philofillet Hi all I feel like asking you all if during your years of practice you have ever gone through something like I am now. These days, all that concerns me is what I do, say and think, and whether it is harmful to myself and others. It is all about action, and consideration of the rather obvious consequences of action. I seem to have little or no interest in looking deeper, for example into Abhidhamma, in order to consider whether the roots of these seemingly wholesome actions are actually kusala or not (i.e whether it is all about clinging to comfort, emotional well-being, self- identity etc.) To me these days, Dhamma seems incredibly straight forward. Is what I am going to do or say helpful to myself and others or hurtful? Is what I am doing now helpful or hurtful? Is what I did helpful or hurtful? It seems so straight-forward. And while I have no doubt of the truth that there are in reality no "people", only dhammas (even science shows us that in reality there are no people, only atoms etc) these days I am only interested in how what I do or don't do effects people. Does this make me a "materialist" or something? I know that there is no liberation from samsara without going deeper, so... ...anyways, has anyone gone through a stage like this? I know it is just a stage, so I guess I should just ride it out and see what happens. And it certainly is making me very happy. (That's another thing - I feel quite convinced that being happy is a pre-condition for going deeper. Before I would have deplored that as greedy feel- goodism.) I really do appreciate that keeping in touch with this group helps keeps me in touch with the potential to go deeper into things. Metta, Phil #73351 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:00 pm Subject: Re: Very straight forward these days. ksheri3 Good Day Phil, I don't see why any application of what you've learned about the dhamma is a bad thing or not SINCE IT IS QUALIFIED by your statement that you don't care to go deeper into these things. Going swimming generally doesn't mean just taking a head long leap into the water without first accustoming the body to the different temperature. I can assure you though, that the road will be long and arduous since you make it clear that karma is not a concern for you right now. Affecting others, hmmmmmm, that's a big one. If you did not exist or do not exist then you would not have any effect on any other person that didn't exist nor does exist. The chance lingers that you do exist and you do effect others that are existing and exist and so I guess the most obvious thing I can say to ease your consciousness about effecting any other being is that you should not use any of our oxygen, nor reflect any of our light, since we may need it. The chance exists that you won't take my advice and you will use my oxygen and reflect my light, and so, as we say in the Navy, "Damned to bad luck". You try, that's all any of us can do. You're gonna effect a lot of people every second you're living, no matter what ya do so why sweat the small stuff? Some people will like the effects and others just won't be happy with the effects no matter what ya do, so why sweat the small stuff? toodles, colette > These days, all that concerns me is what I do, say and think, and > whether it is harmful to myself and others. <....> #73352 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) ksheri3 Hi Sarah, I guess TG, Thanx Sarah for helping TG tell me what he told me. His other post seemed to be spinning in circles about the past without any concern for the present and/or future. I'll read the definition more carefully TG, that Sarah has given you to give to me, later, but right now I'm concerned with the Bardo Thodol and the Six Realms. Which means that I'm off to be doing research. toodles, colette #73353 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- colette wrote: >.... but right now I'm concerned with the Bardo > Thodol and the Six Realms. Which means that I'm off to be doing > research. .... S: Why not do some of your research in 'Useful Posts' in the files section of DSG, scrolling down to 'Intermediate States' (Bardo)? If one citta follows another, how can there be any gap? This is the question, I think. Metta, Sarah ======= #73354 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. sarahprocter... Hi Howard (TG & Phil*), Replying belatedly to your questions in #73063: --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >TG:What the body actually experiences is friction. Temperature is >>>based on > > >relative friction. <...> > > .... > > S: To me this is based on science rather than the Buddha's teachings > of > > what can be directly known and realised now. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Sarah, given that you posit "external" matter, and not just rupic > > experiential content (as I do), why do you so strongly separate Dhamma > from > science? .... S: Whether one's talking about the rupas making up the moon or about science, knowledge of these will never lead to enlightenment. The 'worlds' of dhammas refer to what can be directly known now. This is all that matters. While it is true that there are external matter which can never be known (there are also external rupas which can be known) and while science contains many, many cconventionally useful truths which affect our lives all the time, it is only the direct understanding of paramattha truths which leads to liberation. .... >One could well argue that understanding the nature of rainbows > - their > conditioned and "unreal" nature, for example, comes not from "rainbow > experience", > but from explanations derived from optics. ... S: Fine. But it will never lead to liberation. ... > Is it that although you do not see the Dhamma as phenomenalist, > you > *do* see it as phenomenological? That is, you see it as concerned only > with > elements of experience, and not "things" beyond the merely experienced? .... S: I see it as being concerned with the 'All' which can be tested and known at this moment. Whether that's 'phenomenological', I don't know:-) Other aspects, such as Herman's 'Curiosities' are interesting, just as rainbows are interesting. However, we need to distinguish between what needs to be known and what doesn't. *Let me go off on a bit of a tangent and refer to Phil's question about experiences and areas of interest for a moment. We all have different interests, different accumulations and I don't really think it matters how much or little we study the Abhidhamma texts, how interested we are in science, or whether we prefer quiet roots of trees or busy city life. We don't need to take ourselves or our accumulations too seriously - they are only fleeting mental states after all. Past experiences have completely gone, so no point in dwelling on them as I see it. What does matter is the development of understanding of dhammas as anatta in order for there to be the growth of detachment from them. That's all! ... > As for me, the distinction I make between Dhamma and science is > based > on my assumption of the Dhamma being a species of phenomenalism, or, at > the > least, a species of phenomenology. That is how I interpret the Bahiya > Sutta, for > example. The elements in the suttas about Mount Sineru and such I > consider to > be "science" circa 500 BCE. So, I don't consider that part of the > Dhamma, but > just scientific theory less predictively adequate than current > cosmology. .... S: I think my attitude is fairly close to yours except I keep a more open mind about the suttas and references in texts which I don't understand. In other words, I have greater confidence in the Buddha's knowledge and wisdom on these matters and reasons for referring to them. However, as I mentioned the other day, we live at a different time and many of the references which were specific to people at that time really can't be fully understood by us. So, just leave them aside, or read out of curiosity as one might the rainbows! .... > -------------------------------------------------- Thanks for raising these points, Howard. Metta, Sarah *p.s Phil, I also suspect that your preferring to leave aside all Abhidhamma detail these days is partly a 'reaction' to all that intensive study you were doing. For example, you mentioned that you'd study the Ab.Sangaha for 3 hrs at a time and so on. I've known many others study Abhidhamma intensively and then throw it all away too - after all, it's not about 'theory'. ================== #73355 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Impermanent' Versus 'Inconstant'( subconscious and unconscious mind) sarahprocter... Dear Nidhi (& Nina), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: <...> > The anusaya are the latent tendencies lying dormant in the citta and > they are passed on from citta to citta. They can condition the > arising of akusala citta. > Kusala and akusala arising at the present time fall away and they are > accumulated as inclinations. These go on from citta to citta, also to > following lives. They do not stay somewhere as in a store. This > subject is very vast, I cannot explain all in one post. .... S: Nina has written and translated a lot on the topic of anusayas. See lots, lots more in 'Useful Posts' under 'anusayas' (files section). I know she'll be happy if you 'revitalize' any past posts for further discussion. Also, see 'Ayuhana' there for more on some of the points you raised on 'store-consciousness'. I'll look forward to further questions/comments. You asked for links for A.Sujin. Nina gave you one for her books. I also encourage you to listen to more of the edited audio discussions on www.dhammastudygroup.org. Start with the 'Erik series' at the top of the audio (under the archives). I think you'll find it very interesting. If it's too slow and difficult to download, let me know off-list and we can send you a c.d. or two or three! (Same for anyone else who'd like one.) Metta, Sarah ======== #73356 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the teachings. nilovg Hi Phil and Howard, ------ Op 14-jun-2007, om 2:43 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Is there any textual support for it (for example, the Buddha > predicting that people would become less capable of understanding > his teaching) or latter commentaries that support such a view? --------- Rob K quoted a sutta about the Pegs, stating that people later on would prefer poetry to the Tipitaka texts. Howard, people born at the Buddha's time could hear the teachings directly from him and that made all the difference. It was not by accident they were born at that time, it fitted their kamma. They were ready for his teachings. More quotes (from Rob's forum): Gradual Sayings (Book of the Twos, Ch II, § 10) that the Buddha said: QUOTE Monks, these two things conduce to the confusion and disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? The wrong expression of the letter (of the text) and wrong interpretation of the meaning of it. For if the letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong..... Monks, these two things conduce to the establishment, the non-confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? The right expression of the letter and right interpretation of the meaning. For if the letter be rightly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also right.... Dispeller of Delusion² (the commentary to the Book of Analysis, commentary to Ch 16, Classification of Knowledge) is one of the texts explaining about the disappearance of the teachings 1 . We read (431): QUOTE For there are three kinds of disappearance: disappearance of theoretical understanding (pariyatti), disappearance of penetration (paìivedha) and disappearance of practice (paìipatti). Herein, pariyatti is the three parts of the Tipiìaka; the penetration is the penetration of the Truths; the practice is the way.... Further on we read that of the Scriptures first the Book of the Patthåna (Conditional Relations) of the Abhidhamma disappears, and then successively the other Books of the Abhidamma. After that the Books of the Suttanta will successively disappear. We read: QUOTE But when the two Piìakas 2 have disappeared, while the Vinaya Pitaka endures, the teachings (såsana) endure. ------- Nina. #73357 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati sarahprocter... Dear Nidhi, Thank you for all your helpful comments on effort and anatta. You asked me some questions here: --- wisdomcompassion wrote: > as you use the word 'understanding' the realities as they appear. > > 1) what actually you mean by this word ... S: Understanding - directly knowing the characteristic of the reality when it is experienced at the present moment. For example, we can think and talk about visible object, but it can also be known directly now when awareness is aware of it. > 2) how do u safeguard that self doesn't get strenthened, .... S: Understanding does the safeguarding. When it becomes clearer and clearer that there are only dhammas, only elements, there will be less and less inclination to take anything experienced for self. ... > Who is it > that safeguards, ... S: 'Who' is an illusion, a fantasy held by wrong view! ... > and most importantantly who is it that "understands" ... S: Same answer. Pa~n~naa understands. It's an impermanent mental state which doesn't belong to you, me or anyone. .... > 3) what does that understanding brings. ... S: Just as ignorance leads to more ignorance, understanding leads to more understanding. It gets closer and closer to the true nature of dhammas as they are. ... > 4) what is the process of understanding. ... S: Hearing and deeply considering the nature of all kinds of namas and rupas appearing now, clearly distinguishing them and seeing that there is no atta anywhere. This leads to detachment and understanding. Also patience and non-greed for results are important. I think the main obstacle is the wrong view of self which always wants to 'do' something in order to have understanding. How do these answers sounds to you? Great questions. Ask more anytime. Apologies for my delays in replying! I'm actually very impressed by all the careful reflection I read in your letters, Nidhi. As you said in your letter #73067, it's not a question of 'not-doing' anything, but a question of developing understanding no matter how one lives. Metta, Sarah ======== #73358 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:25 am Subject: Sutta correction, Listening to Dhamma, Ch 2, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, I have to correct a PTS translation of this Sutta: We read in the text to which the “Visuddhimagga” refers, in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Salåyatana Vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, The fourth Fifty, Ch 5, The Chapter on the Snake, 197, The Snake) ... “The empty village”, monks,—that is a name for the personal sixfold sense- sphere (inner åyatanas). For if a man, however wise, clever, intelligent he be, searches it through by way of the eye, he finds it empty, finds it void, unoccupied. If he searches it through by way of the tongue... by way of the mind, he finds it empty, finds it void, unoccupied. “The village-plunderers”, monks,—that is a name for the external sixfold sense-sphere (outer åyatanas). For the eye, monks, destroys with entrancing shapes, the ear destroys with entrancing sounds, the nose... the tongue with entrancing savours... the body... the mind destroys with entrancing mind- states.... --------- N: Comparing with B.B. translation (p. 1238): the eye is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable forms... Instead of: the eye destroys with entrancing shapes... The Pali has: ha~n~nati, which is a passive form of hanati: to kill, injure. PTS overlooked that ha~n~nati is a passive form which makes more sense. Nina. #73360 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the teachings. (correction) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/14/2007 3:03:00 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: In a message dated 6/14/2007 2:13:33 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, _vangorko@..._ (mailto:vangorko@...) writes: Monks, these two things conduce to the confusion and disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? The wrong expression of the letter (of the text) and wrong interpretation of the meaning of it. For if the letter be wrongly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also wrong..... Monks, these two things conduce to the establishment, the non-confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? The right expression of the letter and right interpretation of the meaning. For if the letter be rightly expressed, the interpretation of the meaning is also right.... ..................................................................... Hi Sarah This is a great reason not to go along with this "ultimate realities with their own characteristics" business. To me when the Buddha speaks as he did here above, it is precisely with that type of development in mind (among others) that he is speaking to. TG ............................................. NEW TG: Oops, this should have been a response to Nina but it would apply to Sarah too I would think. TG #73361 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:28 am Subject: Re: Very straight forward these days. philofillet Hi Colette Thanks for the feedback. > I don't see why any application of what you've learned about the > dhamma is a bad thing or not SINCE IT IS QUALIFIED by your statement > that you don't care to go deeper into these things. Going swimming > generally doesn't mean just taking a head long leap into the water > without first accustoming the body to the different temperature. I > can assure you though, that the road will be long and arduous since > you make it clear that karma is not a concern for you right now. Hmm. I think karma is the *only* concern for me right now. I don't know how kamma plays out, but my whole practice these days is avoiding transgression of akusala kamma pathha, or being more aware of transgression since one cannot decide not to transgress. So I want to get through this lifetime with as few transgressions as possible, that sort of thing. I think that this is a message the Buddha gave to busy householders, as in the "island of refuge" sutta I've mentionned a few times. The old guys are told that yes, they should be concerned, because now they're old and they haven't built a refuge of good deeds in life. (For me, the good deeds are more about abstaining from bad deeds, mostly of the little variety such as showing impatience with students at work, people on the train etc.) > > Affecting others, hmmmmmm, that's a big one. If you did not exist or > do not exist then you would not have any effect on any other person > that didn't exist nor does exist. The chance lingers that you do > exist and you do effect others that are existing and exist and so I > guess the most obvious thing I can say to ease your consciousness > about effecting any other being is that you should not use any of our > oxygen, nor reflect any of our light, since we may need it. The > chance exists that you won't take my advice and you will use my > oxygen and reflect my light, and so, as we say in the Navy, "Damned > to bad luck". Yes, thanks.I said my concern is "how" my actions affect others but that was wrong. We don't know how we affect others. But that fact *that* we affect others, have so much potential to harm ourselves and others, that's enough. I am treading very lightly through the world these days. I like the sutta that says that the mind is like a wound ready to fester at any moment, or words to that effect. What do we do with a wound? We take care with it, keep it protected agains further infection. Now, my insight into the workings of the mind is nothing like that colette-oscope, but that's ok. nice and shallow does it, as the stranglers *didn't* say. (obligatory music reference!) > > You try, that's all any of us can do. > > You're gonna effect a lot of people every second you're living, no > matter what ya do so why sweat the small stuff? Some people will like > the effects and others just won't be happy with the effects no matter > what ya do, so why sweat the small stuff? No sweating these days, really. I find my new-agey meditation style is so effective for just letting go of stuff by returning to my lovely meditation image, la di da... As it happens, I'm re-reading "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" to study Japanese. There is good Dhamma of the kind that I am appreciating these days even in pop psychology books. Learning to let go of crud (kilesas) so it doesn't accumulate any further in the mind, that's all. We can do that, and it's great. Colette, nice touching bases with you. Metta, Phil p.s Sarah, thanks. Yes, just getting things in balance. I'm 100% confident I'll be back at the Abdhidhamma someday. #73362 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the teachings. philofillet Hi Nina I see (re the "people will prefer poetry to the tipitaka"). That is textual support for what you were saying about this generation being less attuned to the teaching, but I don' think it's conclusive. It is saying that there will be fewer people interested in the tipitaka, but it is not necessarily saying that those people who *are* keen on the tipitaka will understand it less. Could you also supply some for the following? > Howard, people born at the Buddha's time could hear the teachings > directly from him and that made all the difference. It was not by > accident they were born at that time, it fitted their kamma. They > were ready for his teachings. This is another thing I have heard Acharn Sujin and you and others in the Bangkok group say many times but which I have never thought to look further into. I guess it makes sense, but is it just surmising or is there textual support for it? I'm not trying to debate the point. If there is textual support that says we should hesitate to be confident in our ability to understand suttas because of chronological distance from the Buddha, I will certainly take it to heart. Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil #73363 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:51 am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply: N: "no, I do not think this is visama lobha. Just a normal, human reaction. Without trying, sometimes its characteristic can be considered as a conditioned dhamma. As Kh Sujin says, they are all dhammas. That is the main thing: to understand it as just dhamma. For visama lobha, we have to think of what Phil meant. It is more a transgression, something serious." Scott: A little confusion re: terms, not, I think, the clarification. In the above you note that grief would be 'normal' lobha. 'Visama-lobha' is 'something serious'. In the below, however, from Message #64484, you note: N: "...If the objective is not dana, sila or bhavana, you think of the shopping with akusala cittas, mostly with lobha. You do not harm anybody, it is not the heavy lobha. It is the usual holding on, wanting to do something, with lobha, ever so slightly. The Co. explains that sama-lobha is the harmful lobha, and visama-lobha is what we, living as laypeople in the world usually have." Scott: This leaves a bit of confustion. Is it sama-lobha or visama-lobha that is the more heavy? What is the effect of 'heavy lobha' such that it becomes a problem? Sincerely, Scott. #73364 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt nilovg Dear scott, this was a former post where I mixed up the terms sama-lobha and visama-lobha, and after that Sarah pointed this out. Visama-lobha is heavy. The effect? It depends on the transgression by which you harm yourself or others or both. Akusala kamma will produce an unpleasant result. Speaking about grief, this is dosa, but it is conditioned by lobha. Grief because of loss is conditioned by clinging to a person, above all clinging to oneself, one misses the pleasant feeling caused by the presence of a beloved one. That clinging is quite normal, and not a transgression. Sorry for the confusion. Nina. Op 14-jun-2007, om 13:51 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > The Co. > explains that sama-lobha is the harmful lobha, and visama-lobha is > what we, living as laypeople in the world usually have." > > Scott: This leaves a bit of confustion. Is it sama-lobha or > visama-lobha that is the more heavy? What is the effect of 'heavy > lobha' such that it becomes a problem? #73365 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:51 am Subject: Re: Very straight forward these days. nidive Hi Phil, > These days, all that concerns me is what I do, say and think, and > whether it is harmful to myself and others. It is all about action, > and consideration of the rather obvious consequences of action. I think you are doing pretty well. Have a look at MN 61 where the Buddha instructs his son Rahula on repeated reflections on bodily, verbal and mental actions. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html Swee Boon #73366 From: connie Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:09 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (59) nichiconn dear friends, 7. Sattakanipaato 2. Caalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 3: txt: Taasu caalaa bhikkhunii ekadivasa.m pacchaabhatta.m pi.n.dapaatapa.tikkantaa andhavana.m pavisitvaa divaavihaara.m nisiidi. Atha na.m maaro upasa"nkamitvaa kaamehi upanesi. Ya.m sandhaaya sutte vutta.m- "Atha kho caalaa bhikkhunii pubba.nhasamaya.m nivaasetvaa pattaciivara.m aadaaya saavatthi.m pi.n.daaya paavisi. Saavatthiya.m pi.n.daaya caritvaa pacchaabhatta.m pi.n.dapaatapa.tikkantaa yena andhavana.m, tenupasa"nkami divaavihaaraaya. Andhavana.m ajjhogaahetvaa a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule divaavihaara.m nisiidi. Atha kho maaro paapimaa yena caalaa bhikkhunii, tenupasa"nkami, upasa"nkamitvaa caala.m bhikkhuni.m etadavocaa"ti (sa.m. ni. 1.167). PRUITT: Of these [three], one day, Bhikkhunii Caalaa, after eating, returned from her alms round, entered the Andha Grove and sat down in her daytime resting place. Then Maara approached her and offered sensual pleasures. With reference to that, it is said in the discourse [[S I 132 (KS I 165f)]]: Now Bhikkhunii Caalaa dressed herself in the morning, took her robe and bowl, and entered Saavatthi on her alms round. She wandered on alms round in Saavatthi, and after eating she returned from her alms round. Then she went to the Andha Grove and sat at the foot of a certain tree as her daytime resting place. Then Maara, the evil one, approached Bhikkhunii Caalaa. Having aproached Bhikkhunii Caalaa he spoke. txt: Andhavanamhi divaavihaara.m nisinna.m maaro upasa"nkamitvaa brahmacariyavaasato vicchinditukaamo "ka.m nu uddissa mu.n.daasii"ti-aadi.m pucchi. Athassa satthu gu.ne dhammassa ca niyyaanikabhaava.m pakaasetvaa attano katakiccabhaavavibhaavanena tassa visayaatikkama.m pavedesi. Ta.m sutvaa maaro dukkhii dummano tatthevantaradhaayi. Pruitt: When she was seated in her daytime resting place in the Andha grove, Maara approached, and wanting to separate her from the holy life, he asked, "Following whose teaching have you shaved your head?"* and so forth. Then she explained salvation and the good qualities of the Doctrine of her Teacher, and she made known she had overcome sense objects, explaining that her own duty had been done. Hearing her, Maara, downcast and sad, disappeared on the spot. *p.209 n.1: The opening words of v.183. Literally: "With reference to whom are you shaven?" (c.f. EV II, v. 183). RD: Now, Caalaa Bhikkhunii, after her round and her meal, entered one day the Dark Grove to take siesta. Then Maara came to stir up sensual desires in her. Is it not told in the Sutta? Again, Caalaa Bhikkhunii, after her round in Saavatthi and her meal, entered one day the Pleasant Grove for siesta. And, going on down into the Dark Grove, she sat down under a tree. Then Maara came, and, wishing to upset the consistency of her religious life, asked her the questions in her Psalm. When she had expounded to him the virtues of the Master, and the guiding power of the Norm, she showed him how, by her own attained proficiency, he was exceeding his tether. Thereat Maara, dejected and melancholy, vanished. ===tbc, connie #73367 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:20 am Subject: Condiitons, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 4 Proximity-condition (Anantara-paccaya) and Contiguity-condition (Samanantara-paccaya) We may wonder why life goes on and on. Yesterday there were seeing, hearing and thinking, and today these realities occur again. Experiences occur time and again because there are conditions for them. Proximity-condition and contiguity-condition are conditions for cittas to arise again and again, in succession. Each citta with its associated cetasikas falls away and conditions the arising of the succeeding citta with its associated cetasikas. The next citta cannot arise if the preceding citta has not fallen away, there can be only one citta at a time. It is difficult to know the succession of the different cittas since they arise and fall away very rapidly. Attachment may arise in a sense-door process and then in the mind- door process, but, so long as there is no clear understanding of different realities, it seems that attachment can last for a while. In reality there are different cittas arising and falling away, succeeding one another because of proximity-condition and contiguity- condition. Anantara (proximity) means: without interval. Anantara and samanantara (contiguity) are different in name, but the same in meaning (Visuddhimagga, XVII, 74) [1]. The preceding citta is the condition, paccaya, for the arising of the subsequent citta which is the conditioned dhamma (paccayupanna dhamma). The conditions of proximity and of contiguity do not pertain to rúpa. Rúpa can be produced by four factors: by kamma, by citta, by nutrition and by temperature or heat. Rúpas arise and then fall away and so long as there are conditions new rúpas are produced by the four factors [2]. ------------ 1. “Sa.m” in samanantara can mean right or proper. Citta conditions, after it has ceased, the arising of the subsequent citta, without interval; citta is anantara-paccaya. Moreover, citta is samanantara- paccaya; cittas follow upon one another in the proper way, in accordance with a fixed order in their subsequent arising. The rebirth-consciousness, for example, is not followed by seeing, but by the first bhavanga-citta in that life. The relation of samanantara- paccaya has been taught in addition to anantara paccaya for the benefit of the listeners who might have misunderstandings. Samanantara is sometimes translated as immediate contiguity. 2. In some cases there can be temporary suspension of citta, and then only rúpas arise and fall away. Those who have developed samatha up to the fourth stage of arúpa-jhåna, the “Sphere of Neither Perception Nor Non-Perception “ and who have also realized the stage of enlightenment of the anågåmí, non-returner, and of the arahat, can attain “cessation” nirodha-samåpatti. This is the temporary suspension of citta, cetasikas and mind-produced rúpa. Rúpas produced by kamma, temperature and nutriment, in the case of human beings, and rúpas produced by kamma and temperature, in the case of beings in the Brahma plane, continue to arise. When they emerge from cessation, the first citta which arises is the phala-citta, fruition-consciousness (lokuttara vipåkacitta), which has nibbåna as its object. For the anågåmí it is the phala-citta of the anågåmí and for the arahat it is the phala-citta of the arahat. This citta is conditioned by the preceding citta, the arúpa-jhånacitta of the fourth stage which occurred prior to cessation. Thus, the force of proximity is not destroyed by the temporary suspension of citta. It is the same in the case of rebirth in the asañña-satta plane, the plane where there is only rúpa. When the lifespan in that plane is over and there is rebirth in the sensuous plane, the rebirth- consciousness is conditioned by the dying-consciousness which occurred prior to rebirth in the asañña-satta-plane. Thus, the force of proximity is not destroyed. ----------- Nina. #73368 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:51 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 2, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, As we read in the above quoted sutta text of the “Kindred Sayings”, “the eye, monks, is attacked by agreeable and disagreeable forms..." and the same is true with regard to the other doorways. When a pleasant sense object is experienced there is likely to be clinging. So long as there is clinging there will be rebirth and the cycle of birth and death will continue. Birth is followed by old age, sickness and death and this is dukkha, suffering. Actually, each moment of life is dukkha, because what arises has to fall away, it is impermanent and thus it is dukkha, unsatisfactory. Being infatuated by the sense objects, is destructive, it is dangerous. We read in the same sutta that the man who is in terror and flees from danger sees a great broad water, of which this side is full of dangers, and the other side free from danger. He makes a raft to cross over to the other shore. The other shore is nibbåna and the raft is the ariyan eightfold Path. He has crossed over and stands on dry land, this means: he has reached arahatship. We read in the “Samyutta Nikåya” (I, Part I, Ch I, The Devas, 7, 10 The world) that the world is in trouble because of the åyatanas. We read: What being given, comes the world to pass? What being given, holds its intercourse? On what depending does it hold its way? Because of what is it so sore oppressed? “Six” being given [1], comes the world to pass. “Six” being given, holds its intercourse [2]. On “Six” depending [3] does it hold its way. Because of “Six” [4]it is so sore oppressed. In the planes where there are nåma and rúpa the six bases arise. The meeting of the bases and the objects causes one to be agitated: after the sense- cognitions defilements such as like or dislike are bound to arise. So long as defilements arise one is not freed from birth, old age, sickness and death, not freed from dukkha. The Buddha taught the development of right understanding of paramattha dhammas so that defilements can finally be eradicated. -------- 1.The internal åyatanas, according to the Commentary, the Såratthappakåsiní. 2.The six external åyatanas. The Påli text has: chasu kuppati, in six it is agitated. 3. The six internal åyatanas. 4. The six external åyatanas. ******* Nina. #73369 From: "m_nease" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:24 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner--Hummingbird Perversions m_nease Hi Phil, If this is particularly inane, blame it on the flu medicine-- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > I threw a lot of babble at you. Please don't feel obliged to try to > make sense of it all. Unless there is something else that grabs you, > perhaps we could discuss that "island of refuge" point. I think it > might be an area where mundane vs deeper right view can be explored. I found it sincere, friendly and well-meaning at the very least--what's wrong with that? Before getting back to replies to earlier posts though, I wanted to share my morning's preoccupation with you. A new generation of hummingbirds has hatched here and I'm having to fill the feeders twice a day. My feelings for these little ones is downright, well--treacly. Any idea how wholesome/unwholesome this all is? I decided to analyze these feelings with the limited equipment at my disposal and found--not entirely to my surprise--that consistently there were (approx.) 1.2-1.5 ppg (parts per gazillian) of mettaa in any one hummingbird observance. And it occurred to me: how many of these same feelings (and actions) would have occured if they didn't look the way they do? Or sound the way they do? Or seem (pa.tibhaati) the way they do (mentally)? Would I still be preparing and serving there meals? How much does the same apply to my other daily activities, or applied even when I was keeping eight precepts? I'm gambling that abhidhamma--especially what is (or seems to me) unmistakable in the discourses--helps me to understand what really is wholesome and what seems so but isn't. Without that understanding, how can I hope for arising of right effort, for example? Is any of this slightly feverish ramble at all pertinent to our discussion? I'll get back to your earlier points when I'm feeling a bit less spacey. With Ucchurasa, mike #73370 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/14/07 3:15:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: Why not do some of your research in 'Useful Posts' in the files section > of DSG, scrolling down to 'Intermediate States' (Bardo)? > > If one citta follows another, how can there be any gap? This is the > question, I think. > ========================= An alleged intermediate "state" could consist of a multitude of mindstates as well, Sarah, so that wouldn't be the point. It is just that certain of the old schools and Mahayana, but not, of course, Theravada, accept transitional realms of experirence - rather dreamlike - that occur as intermediate periods during "moves" between standard realms. There are a couple Pali suttas that speak of an intermediate movement likened to a spark flying through the air. I don't have the reference handy, but I can try to find it for you. (Not a very important matter to my mind! :-) With metta, Howard #73371 From: "sukinder" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:42 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Q. re: Jhana as necessity to enlightenment sukinderpal Hi James, Sorry for the delay in responding. Firstly I'd like to say that your giving so much importance to Jhana including its role in the N8FP and mine not paying too much importance to it, seems to be mainly due to our difference in understanding what the N8FP in fact is. This is the reason there will continue to be a gap in the way both of us interpret many of the Suttas. I therefore think that whatever I say, it is going to make no difference to how you will be reading the Suttas. But of course we don't need to be discussing only in order to convince the other ;-) with this I proceed. ================ Sukin: Even if the Buddha considered more than just the fact that Mahanama was a Once Returner but in fact also covered a non-ariyan jhanalabi, this latter would still be one with great panna. He would have seen the danger in sense contacts and therefore already "preferred" jhana. This kind of panna is however different from one which has seen with Right View the nature of conditioned realities. Mahanama being one of the latter,his wisdom was of greater consequence. I think in this particular case, the Buddha didn't advice Mahanama regarding jhana as a kind of remedy, do you think he in fact did? James: I have read this several times and I just can't follow your train of thought. I don't understand what you are saying. S: Sorry about that. My point was that Mahanama being a Sakadagami obviously had great panna, so therefore it wasn't like he didn't know the drawbacks of lobha and other akusala dhammas, and that the Buddha had to then talk about states beyond sense pleasures in order that he might realize the limitations of his present experiences. The jhanalabi too *knows* the danger of sense contacts, even he would not need to be told about the difference between sense consciousness and jhana. Mahanama being with greater panna, saw not only the limitations of sensual pleasures, but also knew full well that *all* conditioned states are unsatisfactory. So it does not make sense to me that the Buddha would have *needed* to point out "jhana states" to Mahanama in order that he may by "comparing" with sense experiences, become disenchanted with the latter. =========================== Sukin: In any case wouldn't Mahanama have been destined to become an Anagami and then finally an Arahat anyway? Did the Buddha say that he *had to* practice jhana in order that he then reach the goal? James: Yes, the Buddha did. S: :-) Apparently the Buddha wasn't even talking about Jhana. Having some reservation about the fact that the Buddha would be recommending jhana to an ariyan this way, I brought this up with A. Sujin last Saturday. We looked at the commentary in Thai (I don't remember which one), and in that it appears that the Buddha was talking not about Jhana, but the Vipassana stages leading to Anagami. As you know, an Anagami does not have any attachment to sense experiences and his "concentration" is therefore said to be "perfected". I realize that I should be giving more details to you, but at the time I was satisfied with the answer so I didn't bother to get more information. ===================== Sukin: I think if anything, this Sutta points to the non-necessity of Jhana. James: Well, that is a really strange conclusion to reach! S: My conclusion was based on the fact that a Sakadgami didn't even need to have heard about Jhana and there was no reason for me to believe that the higher ariyans would. But of course I now know that the Buddha was actually talking about Vipassana... ====================== Sukin: What if Mahanama didn't hear the Buddha talk about Jhana, would he not go further? James: This is an interesting question. This implies that you believe that once anyone achieves any level of enlightment, he/she can just "coast" to nibbana. I don't think it works that way. I believe that once one becomes a stream-enterer, he/she is bound for enlightenment because of samvegga- because of a sense of urgency the practice will be continued and never abandoned. Reaching a stage of enlightenment isn't like receiving a magic spell or something "Drink this potion and in seven lifetimes you will instantly become enlightened!" ;-)). S: Of course not. I was referring only to Jhana and not the N8FP. But as I said at the beginning of this post, you believe Jhana to be part of the N8FP... ======================= James: I am very sorry to hear of all of your business/financial difficulties lately. I will send good thoughts your way: S: Thanks again for your good wishes. Metta, Sukinder #73372 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:49 am Subject: Re: what is sati sukinderpal Hi Ken and Nidhi, ====================== > N: > though i understand it is very very very special sutta, and > arising of sati is not intentional, however understanding of > realities cannot be done if intention is totally absent, > -------------------- Ken: > Intention (cetana) is present in every citta, but I think I know what > you mean. You mean that the intention in one citta can influence the > form in which a following citta will appear. So you think there needs > (firstly) to be intention to practise insight, which is followed > (secondly) by insight. > > One problem with that theory is it can exclude the dhammas of the > present moment. If the present moment was not preceded by intention > to practise satipatthana then, by your reckoning, it cannot become > the object of right mindfulness and right understanding. S: I think this is an important point of much consequence. I hope you don't mind me adding some comments. I am not as optimistic as you to say "it can exclude". It seems to me that it "will" exclude the present moment and any satipatthana which may arise would do so in spite of the intention. I am not including in this generalization those with great panna in whom along with this; sati, samadhi and viriya have become indriya or bala. For such individuals even `intention to "know" the moment' can condition the `knowing' to arise. ;-) But this would have been due to having developed in the past a firm knowledge of the difference between moments with sati and those without, along with some degree of anicca, dukkha and anatta sanna. Also it must involve a good understanding of characteristic, manifestation and proximate cause of the dhammas that appear naturally. This apparently is not where any of us are at. For us "intention" has always been tied to lobha and called to satisfy it. Being interested in Dhamma and having an idea of liberation makes zero difference to the accumulated tendency in this regard. In fact this becomes a fodder not only for more tanha, but also for wrong view, especially when reinforced by wrong practices. It is in part, this latter according to my understanding, which makes the `illusion of knowing the present moment' a hindrance to the present moment actually being known. If after all, one believes that the experience during formal sittings / retreats *is sati* and those were preceded by intention, then focusing on the present moment at other times giving rise to similar experiences, would reinforce that illusion. And so `intention' becomes important if not key. Niddhi, I think `intention to note' whether now or in a retreat, for ones with limited understanding as we, conditions just more "thinking". It is this thinking (apparently different from the kind we have been used to recognize as so), which is taken by meditators the world over, as "satipatthana". And not knowing better, one goes about mistaking lobha for sati on and on. It becomes harder to see through the illusion as time goes on. Better to muster courage and admit that one is wrong about such experiences *now*, and to being very much a beginner, which I am happy to say that I am. Discouraging though this may sometimes appear to be, which again would only be in relation to yet another wrong way of thinking, I believe that it is infinitely better to not having made more than one step on the Path, than to be taking "many" in the wrong direction. If this has sounded presuming, please forgive me, but if you've read any of my posts, you'll see that it is just the way I think and write. And if the post itself is uncalled-for, blame it on the `tea' I had earlier. ;-) Metta, Sukinder #73373 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] a meditation tip, tandem. nilovg Hi Howard, I expected an answer about volition. If you do not mind, perhaps you could forget about volition for a while. I think that emphasizing it so much is confusing. Why? It seems to me that this is thinking about volition and this does not help. We should not confuse volition in conventional sense and the cetasika volition. I repeat: cetasika. Cetasika arises with the citta and it is conditioned by the citta it accompanies and the other accompanying cetasikas. At each moment there is another kind of volition, depending on the accompanying dhammas. Don't you think so? Let us rather find out what sati is and what its conditions are. I would say when you really understand what cetasika means it may be clearer that sati is a cetasika. I do not mean the term, I do not mean book knowledge when I say: cetasika. Moreover, this is not substantialism you and TG are concerned about. Sati arises only for a moment, and it does not last. How could it have a core? It escapes our mastery or power. But we wish to be master of it, by volition. This is wrong. It may happen that only one object appears through one of the six doors. When hardness appears, only that characteristic is known and at that moment there is nothing else in the world. No body, no breath, nothing else. That is the moment that there can be right consideration of hardness as: just a dhamma. It is a dhamma, it has its own conditions, and nobody, not you, could create it. Here begins right awareness and right understanding and when there is such a moment, not intended, not planned, not clung to, it is a condition for the arising again of similar moments of right understanding and right awareness. It leads to detachment. We never know what arises next and that is good, it shows us that whatever appears is dhamma. It may be irritation when reading certain posts, or happy feeling, or sati of just one object. All these phenomena have their own conditions, and really, they arise in their own time. Not according to our will. You do not need to answer this or pursue this, but I never find it tiring to continue with this subject. When something is not clear I like to try explaining again. Nina. Op 14-jun-2007, om 0:14 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > When it arises it does so unexpectedly, and then it > > will be known: yes, this is sati. That is the way to know the > > difference between the moments with sati and without sati. That is > > the way it can develop because of its own conditions. > > > ====================== > Where do "it's own" conditions come from, Nina? It seems to me that > you recommend never volitionally acting in any way. But, of course, > we DO, and > if we did not we would just die. #73374 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:59 am Subject: re: Conditions Ch 3, no 9. nilovg Dear Ramesh,. thank you for your kind post. ------ R: I remember one of the lecture delivered by Samdhang Rinpoche.. in that lecture..he told that vippassana or meditation or sati, are not the things to do morning and in the evening only..but u have to contemplate these things not in the morning or evening, but throughout 24 hours...sati should be developed..he talked abt the walking meditation also..these things can be developed by cultivating the mindfullness of nama and rupa... ------ N: I think it is impossible to direct the arising of sati. If one tries, the idea of self is very strong. Why should one wish to have sati 24 hours? I also do not think that there has to be a specific posture like walking. There can be mindfulness in all postures. We change postures naturally in a day, because when one sits too long one becomes stiff. Everything can go along just naturally, no forcing, not slowing down movements on purpose. --------- R: but for the samsaric people the contemplation upto this level could not be followed...but the people who had done the renounciation of samsaric pleasure..can able to do ..eventually samsaric people also come to know if they follow the dhamma deligentaly that elements which are non-self...that is "ANNATTA" ..and becomes happy... ------ N: I like your last sentence. Also pleasure is a dhamma and it can be known, it is a conditioned element. Nina. #73375 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the teachings. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/14/07 4:13:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Howard, people born at the Buddha's time could hear the teachings > directly from him and that made all the difference. ==================== Some heard directly, and some did not. I agree that kamma had much to do with those who did get to hear directly doing so. I also agree that one could not have a better in-person teacher than the Buddha! With metta, Howard #73376 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) ksheri3 Good Morning Sarah, What an ugly post to wake up to. ;) Do you realize that I have yet to have my first cup of coffee, so I go to the computer to see if I caused a ruckus with anything that I said've said, saying anything in my case automatically causes a ruckus, people try to cage me like an animal in a zoo so that I have no contact with any other person, they try to impoverish me so that I can not go to their "establishments" and witness what they do, what they eat, drink, etc., and now I come to realization that people do not want me to use my ability to speak, hmmmmm? Imprissonment is another of their means to change the contact I have with humanity. But I've gotta stay focused here and your post clearly did that since you gave me the knudge to check out the files section in our site here, and I can't remember EVER CHECKING the files section here. talk about mentally ill, huh? I know I get bit & pieces of stuff from this group. That's how it always has been for me, I can't rely on EVERYTHING gotten from another person being what I think it is but I can, if I'm concentrating enough and being observant enough, I can find this direct relationship to this "divine meaning" of sorts. Do you think? How can I know, but ponder I do. What caused me the problem this morning was your statement that "if one citta follows the next how can there be any gap". Damn, pisses me off, now I've gotta "Engage Brain" and do it before coffee. It figures, look at that suffix "abbott", here you'll have to find one of those Warner Bros. cartoons from the 60s where ya can hear the character mumbling in aggravation ya just can't make out the words, maybe it's Yosemite Sam, who knows. I can also apply the Gumbies from the Monty Python series where you'll find a Gumbie standing in the middle of the road saying "my brain hurts". And so, onward I go, no? I'll have to check into the Files section. Thanx for the thought. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > --- colette wrote: > >.... but right now I'm concerned with the Bardo > > Thodol and the Six Realms. Which means that I'm off to be doing > > research. > .... > S: Why not do some of your research in 'Useful Posts' in the files section > of DSG, scrolling down to 'Intermediate States' (Bardo)? > > If one citta follows another, how can there be any gap? This is the > question, I think. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= > #73377 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:30 am Subject: Colette-isms = Colette-oscope? Hmmmmm. ksheri3 Good Morning Phil, I'm glad that I could read a post that didn't tax my brain without any lubrication, coffee, as Sarah seemed in the mood to poke a joke or two at me when she entered her latest post to me. A few years ago I recall a person giving me the distinction of possessing "Isms" and they just blew me away with laughter. Here again, with your colette- oscope, I ponder the musician Eminem and his references to Batman. It's light, humourous, thanx. --------------------------- > Hmm. I think karma is the *only* concern for me right now. I don't > know how kamma plays out, but my whole practice these days is > avoiding transgression of akusala kamma pathha, or being more aware > of transgression since one cannot decide not to transgress. colette: isn't that self-defeating? Once you are aware of what constitutes akusala and kusala then aren't you responsible for the effects? That's a side issue, what really matters is how you deal with the knowledge that there is a difference between the two. People in this life here & now, seem to go overboard with Obsessive Compulsive Disorders (OCD) and they can't see that it's a tiny little thing that they've ignored that has festered it's way into become a big thing. Aren't you worried about your subconscious or unconscious or even your "alaya-vijnana"? They just might play a role in how you deal with things and events but on the other hand that may be a good thing since it will remind you to study the dhamma better and more closely. Six of one thing, half a dozen of another, it's all the same, no? ---------------------- (For me, the good deeds are more > about abstaining from bad deeds, colette: sounds good, sounds like a plan, the recognition of the fact that you do committ bad deeds. <....> ---------------------------- But that > fact *that* we affect others, have so much potential to harm > ourselves and others, that's enough. I am treading very lightly > through the world these days. I like the sutta that says that the > mind is like a wound ready to fester at any moment, or words to that > effect. What do we do with a wound? We take care with it, keep it > protected agains further infection. Now, my insight into the > workings of the mind is nothing like that colette-oscope, but that's > ok. nice and shallow does it, as the stranglers *didn't* say. > (obligatory music reference!) > colette: "obligatory" WHAAAAAT? Is it some kindof ritual? I like your grasp of the reality. I can't wait to find some buddhist somewhere that runs out shouting that I'm the anti-christ since I used the term "grasp". that entire paragraph was thoughtful. Thank you. --------------------------- > No sweating these days, really. I find my new-agey meditation > style is so effective for just letting go of stuff by returning to > my lovely meditation image, la di da... > > As it happens, I'm re-reading "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff" to > study Japanese. There is good Dhamma of the kind that I am > appreciating these days even in pop psychology books. Learning to > let go of crud (kilesas) so it doesn't accumulate any further in the > mind, that's all. We can do that, and it's great. colette: good thoughts. > > Colette, nice touching bases with you. colette: Stay in touch. toodles, colette #73378 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] a meditation tip, tandem. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/14/07 2:41:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I expected an answer about volition. > If you do not mind, perhaps you could forget about volition for a > while. > > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I could agree to not discuss it with you if you wish. I will not forget about it, howver, for that is what kamma is. Moreover, there is no Dhamma practice without volition as far as I'm concerned. Without volition, one is a robot. Even a Buddha acted with (selfless) volition. --------------------------------------- I think that emphasizing it so much is confusing. Why? It > > seems to me that this is thinking about volition and this does not help. --------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, we couldn't converse without thinking. In any case, volition is central to the Buddha's teaching, and it is important to think about his teaching. ------------------------------------------ > We should not confuse volition in conventional sense and the cetasika > volition. I repeat: cetasika. Cetasika arises with the citta and it > is conditioned by the citta it accompanies and the other accompanying > cetasikas. At each moment there is another kind of volition, > depending on the accompanying dhammas. Don't you think so? --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what it is that you are asking me. Don't I think what? That there are varieities of volition? Yes, sure. As for the cetasika, cetana, I can't say much. As for the willful pushing that I know of as volition, the only cetana I'm aware of the Buddha discussing in the suttas, I see that as what the Buddha talked of repeatedly there as kamma. ----------------------------------------- > Let us rather find out what sati is and what its conditions are. I > would say when you really understand what cetasika means it may be > clearer that sati is a cetasika. > -------------------------------------- Howard: A cetasika, or mental concomitant, is a mental operation that works along with knowing. Certainly mindfulness is one such, as is volition. What is a cetasika other than what I just said? ---------------------------------------------- I do not mean the term, I do not > > mean book knowledge when I say: cetasika. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Do you mean something that you are aware of? That's what I mean. I observe volition, for example. I had better - it is critical to be aware of volition when it arises, and whether it is wholesome or not. ------------------------------------------- Moreover, this is not > > substantialism you and TG are concerned about. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: *What* isn't substantialism? I don't follow you. Cetasikas are mental operations. What has that to do with substantialism? ---------------------------------------- Sati arises only for a > > moment, and it does not last. How could it have a core? It escapes > our mastery or power. But we wish to be master of it, by volition. ----------------------------------------- Howard: All useful factors can be cultivated, and volition is needed for the cultivation, else one depends on dumb luck. Right effort requires volition. Volition should not be dismissed! ------------------------------------------- > This is wrong. --------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree. It is right. ------------------------------------- > It may happen that only one object appears through one of the six > doors. When hardness appears, only that characteristic is known and > at that moment there is nothing else in the world. No body, no > breath, nothing else. That is the moment that there can be right > consideration of hardness as: just a dhamma. It is a dhamma, it has > its own conditions, and nobody, not you, could create it. > Here begins > > right awareness and right understanding and when there is such a > moment, not intended, not planned, not clung to, it is a condition > for the arising again of similar moments of right understanding and > right awareness. It leads to detachment. > We never know what arises next and that is good, it shows us that > whatever appears is dhamma. It may be irritation when reading certain > posts, or happy feeling, or sati of just one object. All these > phenomena have their own conditions, and really, they arise in their > own time. Not according to our will. -------------------------------------- Howard: As far as you seem to be concerned, Nina, there might as well be one less cetasika, willing, for it doesn't act at all. I just don't know how you ever got to writing this post, Nina. You didn't will it. Does the Lord God do it through you? (Just kidding, Nina! ;-) ---------------------------------------- > You do not need to answer this or pursue this, but I never find it > tiring to continue with this subject. When something is not clear I > like to try explaining again. ------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, your second sentence was "If you do not mind, perhaps you could forget about volition for a while." LOL! Is this post an example of forgetting about it? ;-)) -------------------------------------------- > Nina. > > ==================== With metta, Howard #73379 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:04 pm Subject: Recollection of the Buddha- 8 buddhatrue Hi All, RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS TEACHER OF GODS AND MEN: He teaches by means of the here and now, of the life to come, and of the ultimate goal, according as befits the case, thus he is the Teacher. And furthermore this meaning should be understood according to the Niddesa thus: `"Teacher": the Blessed One is a caravan leader since he brings home caravans. Just as one who brings a caravan home gets caravans across wilderness, gets them across a robber-infested wilderness, gets them across a wild-beast-infested wilderness, gets them across a foodless wilderness, gets them across a waterless wilderness, gets them across, gets them quite across, gets them properly across, gets them to reach the land of safety, so too the Blessed One is a caravan leader, one who brings home the caravans, he gets them across a wilderness, gets them across the wilderness of birth'. Of gods and men: This is said in order to denote those who are the best and also to denote those persons capable of progress. For the Blessed One as a teacher bestowed his teaching upon animals as well. For even animals can, through listening to the Blessed One's Law, acquire the benefit of a [suitable rebirth as] support [for progress], and with the benefit of that same support they come, in their second or their third rebirth, to partake of the path and its fruition. Manduka the deity's son and others illustrate this. While the Blessed One was teaching the Dhamma to the inhabitants of the City of Campa on the banks of the Gaggara Lake, it seems, a frog apprehended a sign in the Blessed One's voice. A cowherd who was standing leaning on a stick put his stick on the frog's head and crushed it. He died and was straight away reborn of the Thirty-three. He found himself there, as if waking up from sleep, amidst a host of celestial nymphs, and he exclaimed "So I have actually been reborn here. What deed did I do?" When he sought for the reason, he found it was none other than his apprehension of the sign in the Blessed One's voice. He went with his divine palace at once to the Blessed One and paid homage at his feet. Though the Blessed One knew about it, he asked him: `Who now pay homage at my feet, Shining with glory of success, Illuminating all around With beauty so outstanding?' `In my last life I was a frog, The waters of a pond my home; A cowherd's crook ended my life While listening to your Dhamma'. The Blessed One taught him the Dhamma. Eighty-four thousand creatures gained penetration to the Dhamma. As soon as the deity's son became established in the fruition of Stream Entry he smiled and then vanished. To be continued…RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS ENLIGHTENED Metta, James #73380 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:09 pm Subject: Recollection of the Buddha- 10 buddhatrue Hi All, RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS BLESSED Blessed is a term signifying the respect and veneration accorded to him as the highest of all beings and distinguished by his special qualities. Here the Ancients said: `"Blessed" is the best of words, "Blessed" is the finest word; Deserving awe and veneration, Blessed is the name therefore'. Or alternatively, names are of four kinds: denoting a period of life, describing a particular mark, signifying a particular acquirement, and fortuitously arisen, which last in the current usage of the world is called `capricious'. Herein, names denoting a period of life are those such as `yearling calf', `steer to be trained', `yoke ox', and the like. Names describing a particular mark are those such as `staff-bearer', `umbrella-bearer', `topknot-wearer', `hand possessor', and the like. Names signifying a particular acquirement are those such as `possessor of the three clear vision', `possessor of the six direct-knowledges', and the like. Such names as `Sirivaddhaka (Augmenter of Lustre)', `Dhanavaddhaka (Augmenter of Wealth)', etc., are fortuitously arisen names; they have no reference to the word-meanings. This name, Blessed, is one signifying a particular acquirement; it is not made by Maha-Maya, or by kind Suddhodhana, or by the eighty thousand kinsmen, or by distinguished deities like Sakka, Santusita, and others. And this is said by the General of the Law (Ven. Sariputta): `"Blessed": this is not a name made by a mother…This [name] "Buddha", which signifies final liberation, is a realistic description of Buddhas (Enlightened Ones), the Blessed Ones, together with their obtainment of omniscient knowledge at the root of an Enlightenment [Tree]'. Now in order to explain also the special qualities signified by this name they cite the following stanza: The revered one has blessings, is a frequenter, a partaker, a possessor of what has been analyzed, He has caused abolishing, he is fortunate, He has fully developed himself in many ways; He has gone to the end of becoming; thus he is called "Blessed"'. The meaning of these words should be understood according to the method of explanation given to the Niddesa. But there is this other way: `He is fortunate, possessed of abolishment, associated with blessings, and a possessor of what has been analysed, He has frequented and he has rejected going in the kinds of becoming, thus he is Blessed. To be continued…RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS BLESSED, PART 2 Metta, James #73381 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:08 pm Subject: Recollection of the Buddha- 9 buddhatrue Hi All, RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS ENLIGHTENED He is enlightened with the knowledge that belongs to the fruit of liberation, since everything that can be known has been discovered by him. Or alternatively, he discovered the four truths by himself and awakened others to them, thus and for other such reasons he is enlightened. And in order to explain this meaning the whole passage in the Niddesa beginning thus `He is the discoverer of the truths, thus he is enlightened. He is the awakener of the generation, thus he is enlightened', or the same passage from the Patisambhida (Ps, 174), should be quoted in detail. To be continued…RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS BLESSED Metta, James #73382 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:10 pm Subject: Recollection of the Buddha- 11 buddhatrue Hi All, RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA AS BLESSED, PART 2 Herein, by using the Characteristic of Language beginning with `Vowel augmentation of syllable, elision of syllable', or by using the Characteristic of Insertion beginning with [the example of] Pisodara, etc., it may be known that he [can also] bed called `Blessed' when he can be called `fortunate' owing to the fortunateness to have reached the further shore [of the ocean of perfection] of giving, virtue, etc., which produce mundane and supramundane bliss. [Similarly] he [can also] be called `blessed'when he can be called `possessed of abolishment'owing to the following menaces having been abolished; for he has abolished all the hundred thousand kinds of trouble, anxiety and defilement classes as greed, as hate, as delusion, such as misdirected attention; as consciencelessness and shamelessness, as anger and enmity, as contempt and domineering, as envy and avarice, as deceit and fraud, as obduracy and presumption, as pride and haughtiness, as vanity and negligence, as craving and ignorance; as the three roots of the unprofitable, kinds of misconduct, defilement, stains, fictitious perceptions, applied thoughts, and diversifications; as the four perversenesses, cankers, ties, floods, bonds, bad ways, cravings, and clingings; as the five wildernesses in the heart, shackles in the heart, hindrances, and kinds of delight; as the six roots of discord, and groups of craving; as the seven inherent tendencies; as the eight wrongnesses; as the nine things rooted in craving; as the ten courses of unprofitable action; as the sixty-two kinds of [false] view; as the hundred and eight ways of behavior and craving- or in brief the five Maras, that is to say, the Maras of defilement, of the aggregates, and of kamma-formations, Mara as deity, and Mara as death. And in this context it is said: `He has abolished greed and hate, Delusion too, he is canker-free; Abolished every evil state "Blessed" his name may rightly be', And by his fortunateness is indicated the excellence of his material body which bears a hundred characteristics of merit; and by his having abolished defects is indicated the excellence of his Dhamma body. Likewise, [by his fortunateness is indicated] the esteem of worldly [people: and by his having abolished defects, the esteem of] those who resemble him. [And by his fortunateness it is indicated] that he is fit to be relied on by laymen; and [by his having abolished defects that his is fit to be relied on] by those gone forth into homelessness; and when both have relied on him, they acquire relief from bodily and mental pain as well as help with both material and dhamma gifts, and they are rendered capable of finding both mundane and supramundane bliss. He is also called `blessed' since he is `associated with blessings'such as those of the following kind, in the sense that he `has those blessings'. Now in the world the word `blessing'is used for six things, namely lordship, dhamma, fame, glory, wish, and endeavor. He has supreme lordship over his own mind either of the kind reckoned as mundane consisting in `minuteness, lightness', etc., or that complete in all aspects, and likewise supramundane Dhamma. And he has the exceedingly pure fame, spread through the three worlds, acquired through the special quality of veracity. And he has glory in all limbs, perfect in every aspect, which is capable of comforting the eyes of people eager to see his material body. And he has his wish, in other words, the production of what is wanted, since whatever is wanted and needed by him as beneficial to himself or others is then and there produced for him. And he has the endeavor, in other words, the right effort, which is the reason why the whole world venerates him. [He can also] be called `blessed `when he can be called `a possessor of what has been analysed' owing to his having analysed [and clarified] all states into the [three] classes beginning with the profitable; or profitable, etc., states into such classes as aggregates, bases, elements, truths, faculties, dependent origination, etc.; or the Noble Truth of suffering into the senses of oppressing, being formed, burning, and changing; and that of Origin into the senses of accumulating, source, bond, and impediment; and that of Cessation into the senses of escape, seclusion, being unformed, and deathless; and that of the Path into the senses of outlet, cause, seeing, and predominance. Having analysed, having revealed, having shown, them is what is meant. He [can also] be called `blessed'when he can be called one who `has frequented' owing to his having frequented, cultivated, repeatedly practiced, such mundane and supramundane higher-than-human states as the heavenly, the divine, and the noble, abidings, as bodily, mental, and existential seclusion, as the void, the desireless, and the signless, liberations, and others as well. He [can also] be called `blessed' when he can be called one who `has rejected going in the kinds of becoming' because in the three kinds of becoming, the going, in other words, craving, has been rejected by him. And the syllables bha from the word bhava, and ga from the word gamana, and va from the word vanta with the letter a lengthened, make the word `bhagava' (blessed), just as is done in the world with the word `mekhala' since `MDhanassa KHAssa maLA' can be said. To be continue…RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA CONCLUSION Metta, James #73383 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:11 pm Subject: Recollection of the Buddha- 12 buddhatrue Hi All, RECOLLECTION OF THE BUDDHA CONCLUSION: As long as [the meditator] recollects the special qualities of the Buddha in this way `For this and this reason the Blessed One is accomplished,…for this and this reason he is blessed', then `On that occasion his mind is not obsessed by greed, or obsessed by hate, or obsessed by delusion; his mind has rectitude on that occasion, being inspired by the Perfect One'. So when he has thus suppressed the hindrances by preventing obsession by greed, etc., and his mind faces the meditation subject with rectitude, then his applied thought and sustained thought occur with a tendency towards the Enlightened One's special qualities. As he continues to exercise applied thought and sustained thought upon the Enlightened One's special qualities, happiness arises in him. With his mind happy, with happiness as a proximate cause, his bodily and mental disturbances are tranquillized by tranquility. When the disturbance has been tranquillized, bodily and mental bliss arise in him. When he is blissful, his mind, with the Enlightened One's special qualities for its object, becomes concentrated, and so the jhana factors eventually arise in a single moment. But owing to the profundity of the Enlightened One's special qualities, or else owing to his being occupied in recollecting special qualities of many sorts, the jhana is only access and does not reach absorption. And that access jhana itself is known as `recollection of the Buddha' too, because it arises with the recollection of the Enlightened One's special qualities as the means. When a bhikkhu is devoted to this recollection of the Buddha, he is respectful and deferential towards the Master. He attains fullness of faith, mindfulness, understanding and merit. He has much happiness and gladness. He conquers fear and dread. He is able to endure pain. He comes to feel as if he were living in the Master's presence. And his body, when the recollection of the Buddha's special qualities dwells in it, becomes as worthy of veneration as a shrine room. His mind tends towards the plane of the Buddhas. When he encounters an opportunity for transgression, he has awareness of conscience and shame as vivid as though he were face to face with the Master. And if he penetrates no higher, he is at least headed for a happy destiny. Now when a man is truly wise His constant taks will surely be This recollection of the Buddha Blessed with such mighty potency. This, firstly, is the section dealing with the Recollection of the Enlightened One in the detailed explanation. `RECOLLECTIONS' VERY IMPORTANT FOR HOUSEHOLDERS: Still, though this is so, they can be brought to mind by an ordinary man too, if he possesses the special qualities of purified virtue, and the rest. For when he is recollecting the special qualities of the Buddha, etc., even only according to hearsay, his consciousness settles down, in virtue of which the hindrances are suppressed. In his supreme gladness he initiates insight, and he even attains to Arahatship, like the Elder Phussadeva who dwelt at Katakandhakara. (Vism. VII, 127). Metta, James #73384 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:13 pm Subject: One Size Doesn't Fit All- Conditions for Jhana buddhatrue Hi All, Many people mistakenly believe that it takes a special kind of person to cultivate jhana. This is not true. Anyone, I repeat ANYONE, can cultivate jhana if the right conditions are in place. The Visuddhimagga describes the seven conditions which are necessary for the successful cultivation of jhana: So guard the sign, nor count the cost, And what is gained will not be lost; Who fails to have this guard maintained Will lose each time what he has gained. Herein, the way of guarding is this: (1) Abode, (2) resort, (3) and speech, (4) and person, (5) the food, (6) the climate, (7) and the posture- Eschew these seven different kinds Whenever found unsuitable. But cultivate the suitable; For one perchance so doing finds He need not wait too long until Absorption shall his wish fulfill. 1.Herein, an abode is unsuitable if, while he lives in it, the unarisen sign does not arise in him or is lost when it arises, and where unestablished mindfulness fails to become established and the unconcentrated mind concentrated. That is suitable in which mindfulness becomes established and the mind concentrated, as in the Elder Padhaniya-Tissa, resident at Nagapabbata. So if a monastery has many abodes he can try them one by one, living in each for three days, and stay on where his mind becomes unified… 2.An alms-resort village lying to the north or south of the lodging, not too far, within one kosa and a half, and where alms food is easily obtained, is suitable. The opposite kind is unsuitable. 3.Speech: that included in the thirty-two kinds of aimless talk is unsuitable; for it leads to the disappearance of the sign. But talk based on the ten examples of talk is suitable; though even that should be discussed with moderation. 4.Person: one not given to aimless talk, who has the special qualities of virtue, etc., by acquaintanceship with whom the unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated, or the unconcentrated mind more so, is suitable. One who is much concerned with his body (one who is occupied with exercising and caring for the body), who is addicted to aimless talk, is unsuitable; for he only creates disturbances, like muddy water added to clear water… 5.Food: Sweet food suits one, sour food another. 6.Climate: a cool climate suits one, a warm one another. So when he finds that by using certain food or by living in a certain climate he is comfortable, or his unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated, or his concentrated mind more so, then that food or that climate is suitable. Any other food or climate is unsuitable. 7.Postures: walking suits one, standing or sitting or lying down another. So he should try them, like the abode, for three days each, and that posture is suitable in which his unconcentrated mind becomes concentrated or his concentrated mind more so. Any other should be understood as unsuitable. So he should avoid the seven unsuitable kinds and cultivate the suitable. For when he practices in this way, assiduously cultivating the sign, then `he needs not wait too long until absorption shall his wish fulfil.' (Vism. IV, 35-41). Metta, James #73385 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:14 pm Subject: Summer Farewell buddhatrue Hi All, I am traveling soon so this will be my last post to DSG for two months (though I may post updates). I wish you all well and continue to practice the Buddha's teaching of don't do evil, do only good, and purify the mind. To tie up a few loose ends: To Sarah, thank you for the additional information about supramundane jhana. I had a whole series of new questions but no time now. I will try to look in the UP. (And btw, there is no such thing as an arahant who hasn't achieved a jhana. Even dry-insight workers achieve first jhana. Note the conclusion to Recollection of the Buddha where Buddhaghosa describes "access jhana".) To Phil, yeah you can't very well cultivate jhana with Naomi tromping around when you are trying to meditate/concentrate. Hmmm…I say get rid of her! ;-)) (just kidding…don't tell her I said that or she will kill me when I visit :-)) . Conditions change all the time. I hope the post on the conditions necessary for jhana was helpful for you. To Robert A, the development of insight requires direct knowledge of the three characteristics: impermanence, suffering, and non-self. Direct knowledge of the suffering inherent in gross material states (everyday life) is, of course, very suffering and unpleasant. Direct knowledge of the suffering inherent in subtle material states (jhana) is less suffering and less unpleasant. However, they both result in the same insight. The insight itself is peaceful and sublime. You can take your pick of which route you want to take, but at least access jhana must be achieved for final liberation. To Sukin, yes we cannot hold an intelligent conversation about a sutta addressing jhana when you are always referring to supramundane jhana and I am always referring to mundane jhana. We are speaking two different languages. However, to apply logic, if you are only seeking and cultivating path-moment-8-fold-path, then you shouldn't be studying the Abhidhamma and listening to the teaching of KS. They are not necessary. She advocates a path of mundane satipatthana, and that isn't a part of the path (as per your definition of path = path consciousness). If mundane jhana isn't a part of the path then it follows that mundane satipatthana isn't a part of the path either. Hope that answers everyone. I won't be able to respond to any posts until after the summer so keep any responses till then (if you wish). Metta, James #73386 From: connie Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:06 pm Subject: Maatikaa translation nichiconn Dear Maatikaa fans, Bhikkhu Anandajoti's updated web-site now includes his translation of same. See the Recent Additions list: http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm peace, connie #73387 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:16 pm Subject: Re: Maatikaa translation scottduncan2 Dear connie, c: "Bhikkhu Anandajoti's updated web-site now includes his translation of same. See the Recent Additions list: http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm" Thanks! S. #73388 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Summer Farewell upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 6/14/07 9:17:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi All, > > I am traveling soon so this will be my last post to DSG for two months > (though I may post updates). I wish you all well and continue to > practice the Buddha's teaching of don't do evil, do only good, and > purify the mind. > ====================== Have a wonderful summer! Please keep in touch as possible. :-) With metta, Howard #73389 From: han tun Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:49 pm Subject: Re: New Series: Recollection of the Buddha, suggestions. hantun1 Dear Nina, James, and All, In message # 72805, Nina wrote: “Now the Recollection of the Buddha: I am sure Han can add good things about his personal life, and so can others. What does 'Buddha' mean? Do we understand the meaning? Also relevant suttas could be brought in.” ------------------------------ Han: I have been waiting for James to finish his presentations on the Recollection of the Buddha, because what I am going to write is connected with his presentations. Now that he has finished, I can write. In Burma, the Recollection of the Buddha means the Recollection of the Nine Attributes of the Buddha. What are the Nine Attributes? They are: “The Blessed One is an arahant, fully enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, sublime, knower of the world, unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.” "itipi so bhagavaa araham sammaasambuddho vijjaacaranasampanno sugato lokaviduu anuttaro purisadammasaarathi satthaa devamanussaanam buddho bhagavaa"ti. [For details, kindly refer to James’s presentations.] ------------------------------ When we recollect the Nine Attributes of the Buddha, most of us use the prayer beads. Most of us carry the prayer beads with us almost all the time, to recollect the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha or whatever subject matter the person wishes to recollect, and the prayer beads come in handy to do that anywhere, anyplace. We also do it formally in front of our home altar. In such cases, the preparations and sitting posture are the same as in breathing meditation. When we recollect the Attributes of the Buddha by prayer beads, as we press down each prayer bead, we recite the Pali word of the Attribute mentally or verbally, keeping in mind the meaning of that Pali word. We also have a short description of each Attribute in Burmese language, and some people recite also that description together with the Pali word mentally or verbally. I also used prayer beads before. But when I started the study and practice of the Buddha’s teachings seriously, I was told that the prayer beads are not good. So I kept them aside. But, for no reason, about two years ago I changed my mind and started to use them again. Now, I am using them regularly for the recollection of the Nine Attributes of the Buddha, in between my breathing meditation. Some people recollect all the Nine Attributes of the Buddha for each prayer bead, some people recollect each Attribute for each prayer bead. I recollect each Attribute for each prayer bead. I do not know what I am now doing is correct or not. I do not know whether the use of prayer beads is good or not. But what I do know is that as I am now recollecting the Nine Attributes of the Buddha regularly, my saddhaa for the Buddha has increased, and my determination to keep my siila pure is further strengthened (as if the Buddha is watching over me all the time). Furthermore, I am experiencing some of the results of the recollection of the Buddha as mentioned in the following excerpt from AN VI.10, Mahaanaama Sutta. ------------------------------ When a noble disciple recollects the Tathaagata thus, on that occasion his mind is not obsessed by lust, hatred or delusion; his mind is straight, with the Tathaagata as its object. Yasmim mahaanaama samaye ariyasaavako tathaagatam anussarati, nevassa tasmim samaye raagapariyutthitam cittam hoti, na dosapariyutthitam cittam hoti, na mohapariyutthitam cittam hoti, ujugatamevassa tasmim samaye cittam hoti tathaagatam aarabbha. A noble disciple whose mind is straight gains the inspiration of the meaning, the inspiration of the Dhamma, gains gladness connected with the Dhamma. Ujugatacitto kho pana mahaanaama ariyasaavako labhati atthavedam, labhati dhammavedam, labhati dhammuupasamhitam paamujjam. When he is gladdened rapture arises; for one uplifted by rapture the body becomes calm; one calm in body feels happy; for one who is happy the mind becomes concentrated. Pamuditassa piiti jaayati, piitimanassa kaayo passambhati, passaddhakaayo sukham vediyati, sukhino cittam samaadhiyati. This is called a noble disciple who dwells evenly amidst an uneven generation, who dwells unafflicted amidst an afflicted generation, who has entered upon the stream of the Dhamma and develops recollection of the Buddha. Ayam vuccati mahaanaama ariyasaavako visamagataaya pajaaya samappatto viharati. Sabyaapajjaaya pajaaya abyaapajjo viharati. Dhammasotam samaapanno buddhaanussatim bhaaveti. ------------------------------ Respectfully, Han #73390 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 2:22 pm Subject: Wandering through intermediate stages ksheri3 Hi Sarah, Aren't you the crafty one. ;)) "...I tend to think the question of anatta is of relevance. Isn't it only when there is an idea of `beings' rather than a continuous succession of cittas, that these questions arise? Even in a dream- like or coma-like state, there is a succession of cittas and conditioned and conditioning rupas." ETC, ETC, ETC. It'll take me a little while to paroose through this, maybe I used the wrong word maybe I should've said "Paw through this", although I recently had contact with an old friend from a list in a galaxy far far away and I made a jest at my own expense saying that they wouldn't want to do something like that "for a nobody like me" or something to that effect and he replied that I shouldn't be considering myself as a "nobody" and such but that's my sarcastic and sardonic humor showing through that I take this all with a grain of salt. It's better than what some of those addicted tantra fools give with nothing but goblets of salt in the form of sperm. Hey, did ya see in Los Angeles last month that a woman in a hospital emergency room was caughing up blood and dying yet no doctors or nurses did anything to help this woman, they even got it on video tape from the hospital security cameras, aka Big Brother and the Holding Company? I found this significant since it's the way everybody treats and has treated me since 1978. They look, they see I'm in distress, they can see my suffering, yet they cannot do anything to save themselves. <....> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > --- colette wrote: > >.... but right now I'm concerned with the Bardo > > Thodol and the Six Realms. Which means that I'm off to be doing > > research. > .... > S: Why not do some of your research in 'Useful Posts' in the files section > of DSG, scrolling down to 'Intermediate States' (Bardo)? > > If one citta follows another, how can there be any gap? This is the > question, I think. <....> #73391 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:06 pm Subject: Re: what is sati kenhowardau Hi Nidhi, ------------------------- <. . .> N: > I assume you mean present moment, because I think our minds are not sharp enough to exactly be aware of each citta. ------------------------- I'm not sure I understand the point you are making here. In the absolute (Abhidhamma) sense "mind" is one fleeting citta accompanied by several, equally fleeting, cetasikas. This kind of mind definitely is "sharp enough" to experience other namas and rupas. When it is accompanied by sati and panna it can also be mindful of them and know their characteristics. The other type of mind, however, is a concept. It is the conventional idea of a mind, which is something other than a single, momentary citta. I don't think we can talk about satipatthana in terms of that type of mind. The two are not compatible. ----------------------------------- N: > Yes what you are saying makes sense. But my question is what is activity of mind when it is aware of something. lets take an example, suppose you have anger, at the moment anger arises there is no sati. Let's say after two three moments one becomes aware of anger. now let's take another example which is different from emotions. that is sense objects. let's consider some delicious food. when it is being eaten, what takes place. Does the mind understands it, or indulges in the taste, or does it understands it is conditioned reality which has arisen and would fall away. ----------------------------------- I am not sure, but I think you might be asking whether it helps to think, "Anger is present" or "Indulgence in taste is present" etc. I would say, no, it isn't. It is not helpful for satipatthana purposes, and I am not sure that it helps very much for ordinary, conventional purposes either. (You say further down that you do not practise noting, so perhaps that is not what you meant.) --------------------------------- N: > it would be very helpful for me if you explain me the actual process of mind as per your way of understanding. ----------------------------------- Again, I am not sure if we are both talking about the same things. I think you might be asking about the various citta processes (vithi) that are explained in the Abhidhamma. There are some posts in the Useful Posts file under "Processes of Cittas" but they might be a bit more technical than you are looking for. I won't attempt an explanation now in case that is not what you are asking about. ----------------------------------- <. . .> N: > As per my understanding both of us agree that *effort* is not the way. but probably we differ on degree of intention. i distinguish between effort and intention. to me both are not the same. and it appears to me that you do not approve of any form of intention as well. whereas I do not see any problem with intention. ------------------------------------ The intention to practice satipatthana is, by definition, the intention to directly know a paramattha dhamma. But that is something that only conditioned dhammas (namely, sati and panna) can do. And they can do it only when the required conditions have been put in place. Intention won't change conditions. When there are conditions for right sati and right understanding to arise the appropriate intention will arise with them. -------------------- <. . .> N: some misunderstanding appears here. I think you have formed the impression that i make effort for insight to arise. i talk about intention to understand and more inclined to find the truth. I have no idea of what theories you are talking about. I never heard of such theories. I stay in india and had access to some retreats by goenkaji. But i found certain things were not satisfactory for me, so i started reading sutta. That is the whole history of my understanding of buddhism. It was only after joining this group that i came to know that there are different forms of jhanas, and vipassanas and various monasteries and different versions of buddhism, etc. I m totally unaware of all that. though i have searched little bit on internet, but have no actual understanding. And presently i m quite satisfied with what i have in hand. As per my understanding insight comes by understanding/watching one's own mind. by intention i mean intention to understand reality of the mind body interaction, and applying mind towards that. I do not see any radical difference in what you are saying and what i m doing. probably (earlier) I misunderstood what people on this group are saying. But now i think i m talking of same thing in different language. of course i think still there are some points of differences which i m trying to understand. ----------------------- If you are like me it will take you quite some time to learn about this middle-way practice over which there is "no control." It's well worth the effort. So don't worry about the breakdowns in communication that will inevitably happen; just relax and enjoy the ride. :-) Ken H #73392 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the teachings. (correction) sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: >>Nina: Monks, these two things conduce to the establishment, > the non-confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? > The right expression of the letter and right interpretation of the > meaning. For if the letter be rightly expressed, the interpretation >> of the meaning is also right.... > > ..................................................................... >TG: This is a great reason not to go along with this "ultimate realities > with > their own characteristics" business. ..... S: "Maha Kaccaana is wise, bhikkhus, Mahaa Kaccaana has great wisdom. If you had asked me the meaning of this, I would have explained it to you in the same way as Mahaa Kacaana...." MN 18 The Netti-ppakara.na'm is also attributed to Mahaa Kaccaana (transl by PTS as 'The Guide' according to Kaccaana Thera): In AN (i, 23), he is said indeed to be 'foremost of those who analyse in detail what has been stated in brief' and this is done in many suttas besides the Madhunpi.n.dika Sutta (MN18). "Ignorance has the characteristic of not penetrating ideas according to actuality; its footing is the [four] perversions. Craving has the characteristic of cleaving to; its form is endearing form or alluring form. Greed has the characteristic of aspiring.....Hate has the characteristic of willing ill........." (Netti, Definitions of 18 Root Terms, #159). Now you object to the term characteristic (lakkha.na), but as we have stressed, you can use any term. Whatever term is used, clearly the nature of craving is different from the nature of hate. Even a child knows that they have different qualities. What a child doesn't know is that they are impermanent dhammas which don't belong to anyone. These qualities can be known when they appear. At such a time, it is not energy or friction (as you suggest) that is apparent (with no textual or other support at all from anywhere to date !!), but 'the characteristic of cleaving to' and 'the characteristic of willing ill'. You may also say that these are not the Buddha's words and possibly not Maha Kaccaana's either. It doesn't matter. They are the right expression of the letter and the right expression of the meaning according to the entire Tipitaka, including the Abhidhamma. More importantly, the meaning can be proved correct now, whatever the terms used. Metta, Sarah ======= #73393 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Summer Farewell TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/14/2007 7:16:48 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi All, I am traveling soon so this will be my last post to DSG for two months (though I may post updates). I wish you all well and continue to practice the Buddha's teaching of don't do evil, do only good, and purify the mind. ................................... Good message James. Good travels! TG #73394 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Summer Farewell philofillet Hi James (p.s to colette and mike) >I wish you all well and continue to > practice the Buddha's teaching of don't do evil, do only good, and > purify the mind. Yes, good message! It reminds me that I noted that in some of the recorded talks in Bangkok, I have heard this quoted as "do good, avoid evil and purify the mind." Could have been a careless error, but could also reflect an idea that unless there is kusala, there can be no avoiding evil. i.e. there is sila with every moment of kusala, therefore "doing good" must come first, and therefore "avoiding evil" in ultimate terms is much more rarefied than we think. If that is the case in Abhidhamma, so be it. I think there is a reason "avoid evil" comes first in this equation. It is where we start to make progress in clearing the mind of the worst forms of defilements. Anyways keep in touch James, and ahve a great trip Metta, Phil p.s thanks for your nice messages, colette and mike. Back to work tomorrow after a couple of sick days off, so won't be able to post for awhile. So we both caught summer colds, Mike. Great minds sniffle alike. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 6/14/2007 7:16:48 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > Hi All, > > I am traveling soon so this will be my last post to DSG for two months > (though I may post updates). > > #73395 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:19 pm Subject: Re: Very straight forward these days. philofillet Hi Swee Boon Thanks for the enouragement. Indeed, the sutta you refer to is right at the heart of my practice. Reflecting on it every morning is a great idea, in my opinion. It really soaks into one's life. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > > These days, all that concerns me is what I do, say and think, and > > whether it is harmful to myself and others. It is all about action, > > and consideration of the rather obvious consequences of action. > > I think you are doing pretty well. > > Have a look at MN 61 where the Buddha instructs his son Rahula on > repeated reflections on bodily, verbal and mental actions. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html > > Swee Boon > #73396 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati sarahprocter... Dear Nidhi, A reply to another earlier message of yours, #73065 --- wisdomcompassion wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > > > When you say 'there is no other way except watching the > > process of mind', a)who or what is watching, b) what is the process of > > mind? > ************* > a) Mind watching itself. > > b) all experience, all value judgements, all feelins are process of > mind. > > As i see in meditation rupa is also mind. .... S: Only namas can experience an object. So rupa can never be 'mind watching itself'. There are two kinds of nama: cittas and cetasikas. At any moment, there is one citta arising accompanied by at least 7 cetasikas. So any experiencing at all, can only be performed by cittas and cetasikas. What we refer to as 'watching' or 'observing' is a kind of thinking (not necessarily in words). It's different from the direct awareness and understanding of realities (as opposed to concepts). .... <...> >As i understand vipassana 'means watching in special way'. > and i think that when mind watches itself and its process, it is not > conventional watching. so it must be vipassana. I hope my words are in > understandable form. ... S: Vipassana doesn't refer to any kind of watching. It refers to insight, the highly developed wisdom which directly understands namas and rupas. It is pa~n~naa which knows, not a mind as you've described. Just because the 'watching' is not 'conventional watching', doesn't make it vipassana! (See more on 'vipassana' in 'Useful Posts'). .... > > I havent gone at abhidhamma level (in meditation) though i m reading > it, but i think i m learning, and without actually doing anything i > cannot learn anything. .... S: Abhidhamma and Dhamma are actually the same: they just refer to namas and rupas which can be understood at this very moment. There's seeing now, there's visible object now, there's thinking now - there can be meditation now when these dhammas are known, one at a time when they appear. If we think about some other 'doing' instead, it shows there's no awareness now. Thx again for all your other helpful feedback. You believe watching and understanding are the same. I'm not so sure at all:). Metta, Sarah ====== #73397 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] clarification sarahprocter... Dear Nidhi, Back to #72988 on black and white kamma. (Also see more in 'U.P.' under 'Kamma 4- Black & White' --- wisdomcompassion wrote: > dear all, > > i had been using certain words like nirjara, purification, watching > etc. recently i found the sutta reference of what i meant by all this > ------------------- > it is anguttar nikaya cattukkanipata > http://www.tipitaka.org/roman/s0402m3/s0402m3-frm.html > > These four types of kamma have been understood, realized, & made known > by me. Which four? There is kamma that is dark with dark result; kamma > that is bright with bright result; kamma that is dark & bright with > dark & bright result; and kamma that is neither dark nor bright with > neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma. > (Translation from accesstoinsight.org) > ------------------- S: As I recall, the last kamma that is neither dark nor bright, leading to the ending of kamma, refers to the lokuttara path cittas: "....dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." (AN 4.237) .... > in some of my previous posts i was talking about this.this kamma is > neither kusala, nor akusala, nor neutral but absence of kamma, this > leads one to purification/cleaning/watching without volition etc. , ... S: Volition (cetana/kamma) is there and it brings its immediate result in the way of lokuttara fruition consciousness. However, these supramundane cittas lead to the end of samsara, the end of accumulations of 'moral and immoral causes'. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/49991 .... > other word for the same thing is 'pahana', though it is used when a > certain degree of purification has been done. .... S: Yes. Pahana refers to 'abandoning' through the realisation of nibbana. ... >only this kamma can lead > one to unbinding. as kusala kamma also binds one. .... S: Yes! ... >I was using the word > 'nirjara' for this. the pali word is 'nijjara'. though buddha used > 'pahana' mostly for this. ... S: Thank you, I wasn't familiar with the term 'nijjara' before. Metta, Sarah ========= #73398 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati, to sarah sarahprocter... Dear Nidhi, I did get behind.....Here's back to #72989 --- wisdomcompassion wrote: > N:The books that i m reading are ;A Manual of > Abhidhamma(Abhidhammattha Sangaha) by venerable Narada Maha Thera. and > other one is Buddhha Abhhidhhamma,Ultimate Science by Dr.Mehm Tin Mon. > The Ledi sayadaw book that i m reading is called Manuals of dhamma. ... S: Lots of deep Abhidhamma! Share anything you come across of special interest! ... >>S:It's useless to try and > make them > > be any other way or to think that another time would be more > favourable > > for awareness to arise and develop. > ********* > N: i agree with you on all this, however I like to add something. what > i mean by understanding(i use the word watching rather) is burning the > anusaya, so that it never comes again. .... S: This is the function of the lokuttara cittas only (as referred to in my last note to you). The anusayas may lay dormant for a very, very long-time (lifetimes actually), but are only 'burnt' or eradicated at the respective path consciousness moments. .... <...> > yes, Sarah, i have learnt a lot after joining this group. and i have > always enjoyed discussions with people over here. My only qualm is > 'understanding' dhammas as they appear, must be done in right way. I > have been discussing this thing ever since, i don't know whether i > have conveyed anything or not. I am not expert in dhamma, but as i see > very few people know this thing. And as i see this is direct path > leading to burning of anusayas. i have no doubt about this. .... S: I agree with this and I appreciate your confidence in the Dhamma. Yes, we need to discuss a lot to check it really is the 'right way'! Metta, Sarah ======== #73399 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the teachings. (correction) TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 6/15/2007 12:02:29 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi TG, --- _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) wrote: >>Nina: Monks, these two things conduce to the establishment, > the non-confusion, to the non-disappearance of true Dhamma. What two? > The right expression of the letter and right interpretation of the > meaning. For if the letter be rightly expressed, the interpretation >> of the meaning is also right.... > > ............ .... .... .... .... .... .... >TG: This is a great reason not to go along with this "ultimate realities > with > their own characteristics" business. ..... S: "Maha Kaccaana is wise, bhikkhus, Mahaa Kaccaana has great wisdom. If you had asked me the meaning of this, I would have explained it to you in the same way as Mahaa Kacaana...." MN 18 ............................................... NEW TG: Just read MN 18. It has nothing to do with "ultimate realities with their own characteristics." It has to do with Dependent Arising principles and mechanics. "Dependent on eye and forms, eye consciousness arises." etc. ................................................. The Netti-ppakara.The Netti-ppakara.na'm is also attributed to Mahaa Kacc as 'The Guide' according to Kaccaana Thera): In AN (i, 23), he is said indeed to be 'foremost of those who analyse in detail what has been stated in brief' and this is done in many suttas besides the Madhunpi.n.dika Sutta (MN18). "Ignorance has the characteristic of not penetrating ideas according to actuality; its footing is the [four] perversions. Craving has the characteristic of cleaving to; its form is endearing form or alluring form. Greed has the characteristic of aspiring....form. Greed h characteristic of willing ill.........characteristic of willing ill....... Terms, #159). Now you object to the term characteristic (lakkha.na), but as we have stressed, you can use any term. Whatever term is used, clearly the nature of craving is different from the nature of hate. Even a child knows that they have different qualities. What a child doesn't know is that they are impermanent dhammas which don't belong to anyone. ................................. NEW TG: Yes, anyone knows this. So why are you guys pushing this idea as some great insight that must be practiced over and over? Dhammas are not entities. You use the word as if they are. "Dhammas" doesn't mean a thing. Its just letters. One needs to be aware of impermanence of conditions. "Dhammas," as some sort of "pluralistic realities," is a non-issue in the Suttas. The teaching of "Dhammas as ultimate realities with their own characteristics" does not occur in the Suttas. For me its just a perversion of the Dhamma/teachings. ......................................... These qualities can be known when they appear. At such a time, it is not energy or friction (as you suggest) that is apparent (with no textual or other support at all from anywhere to date !!), but 'the characteristic of cleaving to' and 'the characteristic of willing ill'. ............................................ NEW TG: Friction is contact. Both phassa and regular everyday contact. You want examples from the Suttas of friction? OK here.... In the following four extracts, the Buddha points to contacting states or frictional states as a cause of impermanence… “Imposthume, brethren, is a term for body, of the four elements compounded, of parents sprung, on rice and gruel fed, impermanent, of a nature to be worn away, pounded away, broken and scattered.â€? (The Buddha . . . Book of the Kindred Sayings (KS), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 4, pg. 50) The descriptions above: -- “worn,â€? “pounded,â€? “broken,â€? and “scatteredâ€? clearly indicate alteration due to contacting or interacting forces. “When, Bhikkhus (Buddhist monks), a carpenter or carpenter’s apprentice looks at the handle of his adze, he sees the impressions of his fingers and his thumb, but he does not know: ‘So much of the adze handle has been worn away today, so much yesterday, so much earlier.’ But when it has worn away, the knowledge occurs to him that it has worn away.â€? (The Buddha . . . The Connected Discourses of the Buddha (CDB), (Samyutta Nikaya), vol. 1, pg. 960 – 961) And, after being asked if he could describe the time period of an aeon, the Buddha said: – “Suppose, brother, there were a great crag, a hill one yogana wide (about 7-8 miles), one yogana across, one yogana high without chasms or clefts, a solid mass. And a man at the end of every hundred years were to stroke it once each time with a kasi cloth. Well, that mountain in this way would sooner be done away with and ended than an aeon.â€? (The Buddha . . . KS, vol. 2, pg. 121-122) “…suppose there were a seafaring ship bound with rigging that had worn out in the water for six months. It would be hauled up on dry land during the cold season and its rigging would further be attacked by wind and sun. Inundated by rain from a rain cloud, the rigging would easily collapse and rot away.â€? (The Buddha . . . CDB, vol. 2, pg. 1557) These passages indicate wearing away due to contact/friction: common sense knowledge at this level. A child could understand that these descriptions are friction! .................................................. You may also say that these are not the Buddha's words and possibly not Maha Kaccaana's either. It doesn't matter. They are the right expression of the letter and the right expression of the meaning according to the entire Tipitaka, including the Abhidhamma. More importantly, the meaning can be proved correct now, whatever the terms used. ............................................................... NEW TG: I don't think the Buddha was privy to the Abhidhamma as we know it so the statements in the Suttas that talk about being true to the letter and meaning of the teachings would not apply to the Abhidhamma and certainly not to the commentaries. So you say any terms are OK if it can be proved correct? Then what is the problem with a common sense outlook of friction? Friction, after all, is the primary cause of impermanence!!!! You may not like that ... but check the quotes from the Suttas above and consider them seriously before rejecting that idea. I think its indisputable, easily seen and experienced, and common sense. And the Suttas show it in action! TG OUT