#73400 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Seeing Phenomena They Really Are" ... vs ... "Seeing Realities" sarahprocter... Hi TG, Back to #72582 --- TGrand458@... wrote: > In the Suttas, where it is discussed --seeing things as they really are > -- > the accompanying material includes analytical deductive thought > processes; I.E. > reasoning and thinking. The Buddha even often instructs to see > phenomena > in terms of various metaphors...such as "a murderer with sword raised," > etc. > And also, direct experience is also a significant part of such > material. .... S: I would say that all the Buddha's teachings, 'Seeing phenomena as they really are', points to the direct understanding, direct experience of what is taught. The purpose is not to become experts at 'analytical deductive thought processes'. .... > There is a problem when "seeing things as they really are" gets tangled > with > the idea of "seeing realities." For one thing, "seeing things as they > really are has no ontological overtones. "Seeing Realities" most > certainly does. .... S: Perhaps this gets to the real nub of our differences: For me, the purpose is to develop satipatthana, direct understanding of the dhammas of the present moment. The purpose is not to become an expert scientist, an expert debater, an expert analyst or anything else. .... <...> >Well, I wouldn't even have > too big a > problem with that except that these commentarial constructions are > "called the > Buddha's teaching." I like Ken H's approach of calling them the > "teaching of > the Theras." Its just vague enough to be somewhat allowable. ... S: You don't like the ancient commentaries (dating from the Buddha's time and even included in the Pitakas) because they clarify in detail and make it impossible to read the suttas as being anything except the teachings about present dhammas to be known directly by the wise. .... > > Interpreting the Suttas requires a delicate sensibility. I believe the > > Buddha said just what he wanted to say in just the way he wanted to say > it. > Interpretations should be very cautiously made...and made with the > understanding > that they may very well be wrong. This certainly includes mine as > well. .... S: I agree (especially with the last sentence!!lol). To go on to say that you think the 'interpretations' of the Buddha's great disciples and the ancient commentaries which have come down from them may 'very well be wrong' goes a tad too far in my view, however!! Metta, Sarah ======= #73401 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > S: For me, the suttas, the Abhidhamma, the commentaries all point to > the > same dhamma, the same reality which can be known now, not by thinking > about scientific theories or complicated conceptual analyses, but by > being > aware of what is experienced as tangible object. .... >TG: Just briefly. I do see this as the fulcrum of your and Nina's view > about > Buddhism. I.E., being aware of what is experienced as tangible object. > > > Since I do not find that to be the Buddha's teaching, I think we are at > an > impasse. .... S: Well, it's certainly not the first time:-) I fail to see how your approach or view would ever lead to any liberation..... Metta, Sarah ====== #73402 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Condiitons, Ch 2, no 7. TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/15/2007 12:58:58 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: S: Well, it's certainly not the first time:-) I fail to see how your approach or view would ever lead to any liberation..lib Metta, Sarah Hi Sarah My approach and views are those found and reflected in the vast bulk Four Great Nikayas. Yes, I understand why you don't see how that approach could ever lead to liberation. LOL TG OUT #73403 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Seeing Phenomena They Really Are" ... vs ... "Seeing Realities" TGrand458@... Hi Sarah In a message dated 6/15/2007 12:54:24 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi TG, Back to #72582 --- _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) wrote: > In the Suttas, where it is discussed --seeing things as they really are > -- > the accompanying material includes analytical deductive thought > processes; I.E. > reasoning and thinking. The Buddha even often instructs to see > phenomena > in terms of various metaphors... in terms of various metaphors... etc. > And also, direct experience is also a significant part of such > material. .... S: I would say that all the Buddha's teachings, 'Seeing phenomena as they really are', points to the direct understanding, direct experience of what is taught. The purpose is not to become experts at 'analytical deductive thought processes'. .... > There is a problem when "seeing things as they really are" gets tangled > with > the idea of "seeing realities." For one thing, "seeing things as they > really are has no ontological overtones. "Seeing Realities" most > certainly does. .... S: Perhaps this gets to the real nub of our differences: For me, the purpose is to develop satipatthana, direct understanding of the dhammas of the present moment. The purpose is not to become an expert scientist, an expert debater, an expert analyst or anything else. ...................................... NEW TG: Yes, this is the hub of the matter. However, while you think the purpose is "direct understanding of the dhammas of the present moment." I think the purpose is to "see all conditioned phenomena as impermanent, afflicting, and no-self so as to detach from conditions and to be free of them and suffering." My approach is inclusive of direct experience and analytical reasoning...up to the point where the "analysis" and direct experience combines and matures into "intuitive insight." When did I ever say the purpose was to a expert debater or an expert in science??? My science background is minimal. I just observe the way things are changing/working in a common sense manner with the aid of the Buddha's teachings. BTW, My notions of energies, etc. were inspired by the way Abhidhamma dealt with the Four Great Elements. The Abhidhamma "scientized" the Buddha's teachings in many ways and certainly did regarding the Four Great Elements. I just further refined them and made it more actualistic IMO. If you're so against the "addition" of new angles of thought being applied to the Suttas, what in the world are you listening to the commentaries for? ......................................... .... <...> >Well, I wouldn't even have > too big a > problem with that except that these commentarial constructions are > "called the > Buddha's teaching." I like Ken H's approach of calling them the > "teaching of > the Theras." Its just vague enough to be somewhat allowable. ... S: You don't like the ancient commentaries (dating from the Buddha's time and even included in the Pitakas) because they clarify in detail and make it impossible to read the suttas as being anything except the teachings about present dhammas to be known directly by the wise. .............................................................. NEW TG: I don't quite understand your point and its probably just as well. ;-) Commentaries are fine, as long as they are in accordance with the gist of the Suttas. The things you teach about "ultimate realities with their own characteristics" seems like a foreign language to me when compared to the Suttas. It just doesn't match up IMO. .............................................................. .... > > Interpreting the Suttas requires a delicate sensibility. I believe the > > Buddha said just what he wanted to say in just the way he wanted to say > it. > Interpretations should be very cautiously made...and made with the > understanding > that they may very well be wrong. This certainly includes mine as > well. .... S: I agree (especially with the last sentence!!lol)S: I agree (especially you think the 'interpretations' of the Buddha's great disciples and the ancient commentaries which have come down from them may 'very well be wrong' goes a tad too far in my view, however!! ...................................................... NEW TG: You are Abhidhammawoman because you seem to be able to read invisible words! "May very well be wrong" means that they are "possibly wrong." Interesting that you don't seem to ever acknowledge all the many quotes I have provided from the Suttas to demonstrate my point on analysis, etc. Such as the Satipatthana being full of teaching that instruct us to analyze. I think I better toss you a little Karuna. ;-) TG OUT #73404 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:05 am Subject: Re: what is sati kenhowardau Hi Sukin, -------------- <. . .> S: > I am not as optimistic as you to say "it can exclude". It seems to me that it "will" exclude the present moment and any satipatthana which may arise would do so in spite of the intention. ----------------- It is difficult, isn't it? When we talk about intention there is a presumption that we know what intention is. I might say, for example, "My intention is to do good," but is it? Or is it just thinking (ideas) about intention? People who say their intention is to practise satipatthana probably - by the law of averages - don't even know what satipatthana is. Very few people do. So what does that say about their intention? I don't think they are in any position to say they "have the intention" to practise satipatthana - or to create any other [ultimately real] form of consciousness. ------------------------------ S: > I am not including in this generalization those with great panna in whom along with this; sati, samadhi and viriya have become indriya or bala. For such individuals even `intention to "know" the moment' can condition the `knowing' to arise. ;-) ------------------------------- Indriyas and powers are not things I have given a lot of thought to, but I am sure you are right. I have heard that jhana masters can enter and exist jhana "at will," so I suppose satipatthana masters (if there is such a thing) can do the same for satipatthana. :-) ------------------------- S: > But this would have been due to having developed in the past a firm knowledge of the difference between moments with sati and those without, along with some degree of anicca, dukkha and anatta sanna. Also it must involve a good understanding of characteristic, manifestation and proximate cause of the dhammas that appear naturally. -------------------------- That sounds right to me - although it is hard to imagine willing something ultimately real without having a mistaken view of ultimate reality. ------------------------------------- S: > This apparently is not where any of us are at. For us "intention" has always been tied to lobha and called to satisfy it. Being interested in Dhamma and having an idea of liberation makes zero difference to the accumulated tendency in this regard. In fact this becomes a fodder not only for more tanha, but also for wrong view, especially when reinforced by wrong practices. -------------------------------------- Yes, especially then. But, as you say, we are all subject to lobha and wrong view. ---------------------- S: > It is in part, this latter according to my understanding, which makes the `illusion of knowing the present moment' a hindrance to the present moment actually being known. If after all, one believes that the experience during formal sittings / retreats *is sati* and those were preceded by intention, then focusing on the present moment at other times giving rise to similar experiences, would reinforce that illusion. And so `intention' becomes important if not key. ---------------------- The texts sometimes talk about a "wish" don't they? The type they are talking about is wholesome, but I don't know if it makes the outcome any more likely. Wholesome wish or no wholesome wish, the work still has to be done. Ken H #73405 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 49 "I did not affirm earth." -- Buddha sarahprocter... Hi TG & all, As you said, we have to be careful how we read suttas. You wrote in #73101 --- TGrand458@... wrote: > MN 49 has some interesting passages that may deal with some of our > discussions... > > "Brahma, having directly known earth as earth, and having known that > which > is not partaken of by the earthness of earth, ... S: Nibbana .... >I did not claim to be > earth, I > did not claim to be in earth, I did not claim to be apart from earth, I > did not > claim earth to be "mine," I did not affirm earth." .... S: No more wrong views, no more sakkaya ditthi, as Nina indicated. MN1, (Bodhi tranls): 'The Worldling' "...Having perceived earth as earth, he conceives himself as earth; he conceives himself in earth; he conceives himself apart from earth; he conceives 'earth is mine'....." 'The Tathaagata' "....Having directly known earth as eart, he does not conceive himself as earth; he does not conceive himself in earth; he does not conceive himself apart from earth; he does not conceive 'earth is mine'; he does not delight in earth. What is the reason? Because it has been fully understood to the end by the Tathaagata, I declare." .... <...> > This passage, similar to MN #1, contains the interesting sentence -- "I > did > not affirm earth." ... "I did not affirm all." > > Seems one could look at this and conclude that it expresses the opposite > > sentiment than the Abhidhamma Commentaries which view elements as > "ultimate > realities with their own characteristics." The Buddha seems to say here > that he > won't even affirm them...much less give them the lofty stature that the > > Abhidhamma Commentaries do. .... S: "he conceives 'earth is mine'"(pathavi'm me ti ma~n~nati) In other words, as the commentary to MN1 makes clear, "....these are mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures devoid of such attributions as that of a 'being' etc." ..... > Later in the same Sutta we get this... > > "The consciousness that makes no showing, > And in becoming about to disbecome, > Not claiming being with respect to all." > > It seems this passage deals with being on the precipice of attaining > Nibbana. ... S: Consciousness ('what is cognized')refers to nibbana. Nibbana which is 'signless, boundless, all-luminous'. (Lots in 'U.P.' under 'Vinnana2 & Nibbana, Vinnana anidassana') .... >TG:The mental attitude suggested is one that does not consider > things as > being or not being. <...> .... S: MN1: "A bhikkhu who is an arahat.....emancipated through final knowledge -he directly knows earth as earth. Having directly known earth as earth, he does not conceive himself as earth.....'earth is mine'; he does not delight in earth. What is the reason? Because he is devoid of delusion through the destruction of delusion. "He directly knows water as water ....nibbana as nibbana...What is the reason? Because he is devoid of delusion through the destruction of delusion." Metta, Sarah ========= #73406 From: TGrand458@... Date: Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 49 "I did not affirm earth." -- Buddha TGrand458@... Hi Sarah My quote below is from MN #49 and is BB's translation. Therefore, showing BB's translation of MN #1 as different shows that this Sutta is not saying exactly the same thing. I found this difference interesting... "I did not affirm earth." When earth is called an "ultimate reality with its own characteristic," isn't that sort of the extreme of "affirming earth"? Do the commentaries say anything on this one? Thanks. TG In a message dated 6/15/2007 2:21:46 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: MN 49 has some interesting passages that may deal with some of our > discussions. > > "Brahma, having directly known earth as earth, and having known that > which > is not partaken of by the earthness of earth, ... S: Nibbana .... >I did not claim to be > earth, I > did not claim to be in earth, I did not claim to be apart from earth, I > did not > claim earth to be "mine," I did not affirm earth." .... S: No more wrong views, no more sakkaya ditthi, as Nina indicated. MN1, (Bodhi tranls): 'The Worldling' "...Having perceived earth as earth, he conceives himself as earth; he conceives himself in earth; he conceives himself apart from earth; he conceives 'earth is mine'....." 'The Tathaagata' "....Having directly known earth as eart, he does not conceive himself as earth; he does not conceive himself in earth; he does not conceive himself apart from earth; he does not conceive 'earth is mine'; he does not delight in earth. What is the reason? Because it has been fully understood to the end by the Tathaagata, I declare." #73407 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] MN 49 "I did not affirm earth." -- Buddha sarahprocter... Hi TG, --- TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Sarah > > My quote below is from MN #49 and is BB's translation. Therefore, > showing > BB's translation of MN #1 as different shows that this Sutta is not > saying > exactly the same thing. I found this difference interesting... > > "I did not affirm earth." .... S: You're right - there is a difference here and I made a mistake regarding it. MN1, for the arahat after '....he does not conceive earth is 'mine', has 'he does not delight in earth.' MN 49 after '....I did not claim earth to be 'mine', has 'I did not affirm earth.' For this, the note at the back says: "MA glosses: 'I did not grasp earth through the obsessions of craving, conceit, and views.'" So the meaning seems to be the same to me. Also from the MN49 note at the back: "MA says that what is 'not partaken of by the earthness of earth' is Nibbana, which is detached from all that is conditioned." (Btw, I was referring to the BPS translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries, translated by B.Bodhi. The full MN which you're referring to and quoted above was translated by Nanamoli and extensively revised by B.Bodhi.) Out of time! Thx for all your super-prompt replies as usual! Metta, Sarah ======= #73408 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati rameshat27 Hi Sukinder and All, S:-" For us "intention" has always been tied to lobha and called to satisfy it. Being interested in Dhamma and having an idea of liberation makes zero difference to the accumulated tendency in this regard. In fact this becomes a fodder not only for more tanha, but also for wrong view, especially when reinforced by wrong practices. " R:- Most of the people I found here they r interested in dhamma and having a idea of liberation..but found also that they forget about the sangha and there vinaya rules... Most of the people I don't think they had met with Actual tathagatas sangha (Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni) people from there country.. These just ideal people when went to the refuge of sangha and try to live as per vinaya rules told by bhuddha..by begging the alms from 5 homes only and living in seclucion only following rules...could not able to stand in sangha for couple of days also..Achieving the liberation is only the things far from them... I have sawn how difficult is the life of monks ..sangha people...and they are bound with the vinaya rules...they don't have anything...only sati and vippassana with them...they could not demand also anything instead of alms to some one.. Liberation is not the things achieved by discussing dhamma knowledge and having tanha for liberation..... Its first thing is the renounciaiton..from the wordly pleasure..which is very difficult for todays people.. The people who failed to understand the Four Noble Truths..how much they will progress on the dhamma path.... Swakkhato bhagavata dhammo..sanditthiko akaliko... Ahipassiko..openeyyiko..pachhatam ...veditabbo.. Dhamma is the thing analysed by the self...on its own level...not by discussing and asking time to time to others...But these people also don't have courage to meet with the actual sangha people.. In india ..so many people went to DHAMMAGIRI Igatpuri..for the 10 days vippassana courses..they get so much impressed and start dhamma material reading..but they never met any monks or sangha people..only they have the idea born in there mind of liberation..so start reading the dhamma material..which last long for 1 -2 years ..after that they forget abt this idea also and engaged in there activities.. Actually i am not from sangha ..I am s/w engg. but always be in touch with sangha people and knows how the path is difficult after the renounciation..I take so much interest to discuss with the actually sangha people face to face..not with the people enjoying worldly pleasure..and guiding others.. In India..bhuddhism started and re-implemented by Great Bodhisatva Dr. B. R. Ambedkar on 14 Oct. 1956..On this day after exactly 700 yrs,the bhuddhism return to the lands of its origin...after that Goenkaji takes effort to let know others people..what is bhuddhism..still in india..no great sangha is formed..no great monasteries..In Thailand,burma and shrilanka..Bhuddhism is there since from 1000 yrs before..they have so much good developed monasteries and great sangha and also a strong infrastructure...but the land of origination still lagging in this... Indian govt. had done great work by allowing the great monks and leaders of bhuddism in Dharmashala...that is giving now very much benefits..Rinpoche,Dalai Lama are there..Still here the try is always be there to built the good sangha again...like previous.. May Again the monks like Saripputta and Maha Moggallana be arose in india..and we are the people able to built that great sangha again ..finding great and noble people...from india..and all over the world.. In Mission Ramesh Patil Mumbai,India On 6/14/07, Sukinder wrote: > S: I think this is an important point of much consequence. I hope you > don't mind me adding some comments. > > I am not as optimistic as you to say "it can exclude". It seems to me that > > it "will" exclude the present moment and any satipatthana which may > arise would do so in spite of the intention. > I am not including in this generalization those with great panna in whom > along with this; sati, samadhi and viriya have become indriya or bala. > For such individuals even `intention to "know" the moment' can condition > the `knowing' to arise. ;-) But this would have been due to having > developed in the past a firm knowledge of the difference between > moments with sati and those without, along with some degree of > anicca, dukkha and anatta sanna. Also it must involve a good > understanding of characteristic, manifestation and proximate cause of > the dhammas that appear naturally. > > This apparently is not where any of us are at. For us "intention" has > always been tied to lobha and called to satisfy it. Being interested in > Dhamma and having an idea of liberation makes zero difference to the > accumulated tendency in this regard. In fact this becomes a fodder not > only for more tanha, but also for wrong view, especially when > reinforced by wrong practices. <.....> #73409 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:39 am Subject: what was it all about?? pannabahulo My dear Dhamma friends, Now that all the activity has cooled and the excitement waned somewhat, can anyone please explain to me - in a few simple sentences - what all the controversy was about between impermanence and inconstancy; and what were the definitions and conclusions reached. i am sorry that I just can't jump straight into the pool and swim;I'd drown. But I can start by testing the waters by sticking in my big toe. Metta and blessings Phra Alan (Pannabahulo bhikkhu) #73410 From: "sudhanadewan" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:17 am Subject: Enlightenment and Nirvana sudhanadewan Greetings to Dhamma friends, Could any of the Dhamma friend could tell the difference between Enlightenment and Nirvana. Did Buddha attained Nirvana while he was alive or after His death? The Third Noble Truth says the end or cessation of suffering. Do we actually end our suffering? Even Buddha was sick and wounded by His cousin Devadatta and had showed emotion. #73411 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:00 am Subject: Re: what was it all about?? egberdina Hi Alan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > My dear Dhamma friends, > Now that all the activity has cooled and the excitement waned > somewhat, can anyone please explain to me - in a few simple sentences > - what all the controversy was about between impermanence and > inconstancy; and what were the definitions and conclusions reached. > i am sorry that I just can't jump straight into the pool and swim;I'd > drown. But I can start by testing the waters by sticking in my big toe. > Metta and blessings > Phra Alan > (Pannabahulo bhikkhu) I cannot comment on your question, because I do not know. I also do not know why you would sign off with telling us what your job is (what you do to get food into your mouth). Are you an impermanent or an inconstant bhikkhu? Herman IT Manager (agnostic as to what it all means and how long it lasts) #73412 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:50 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 20. "Saying, 'Good friend,' the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Saariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma?' - 'There might be, friends." Saadhaavusoti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m uttari.m pa~nha.m aapucchu.m: " siyaa panaavuso a~n~nopi pariyaayo yathaa ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato' aagato ima.m saddhammanti?" 21. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands ageing and death, the origin of ageing and death, the cessation of ageing and death, and the way leading to the cessation of ageing and death, in that way he is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma." Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako jaraamara.na~nca pajaanaati, jaraamara.nasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, jaraamara.nanirodha~nca pajaanaati, jaraamara.nanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. 22. "And what is ageing and death, what is the origin of ageing and death, what is the cessation of ageing and death, what is the way leading to the cessation of ageing and death? The ageing of beings in the various orders of beings, their old age, brokenness of teeth, greyness of hair, wrinkling of skin, decline of life, weakness of faculties - this is called ageing. The passing of beings out of the various orders of beings, their passing away, dissolution, disappearance, dying, completion of time, dissolution of the aggregates, laying down of the body - this is called death. So this ageing and this death are what is called ageing and death. With the arising of birth there is the arising of ageing and death. With the cessation of birth there is the cessation of ageing and death. The way leading to the cessation of death is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view...right concentration." Katama.m panaavuso jaraamara.na.m? Katamo jaraamara.nasamudayo? Katamo jaraamara.nanirodho? Katamaa jaraamara.nanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa?Ti. Yaa tesa.m sattaana.m tamhi tamhi sattanikaaye jaraa, jiira.nataa, kha.n.dicca.m, paalicca.m, valittacataa, aayuno sa.mhaani, indriyaana.m paripaako aya.m vuccataavuso jaraa. Katama~ncaavuso mara.na.m? Yaa tesa.m tesa.m sattaana.m tamhaa tamhaa sattanikaayaa cuti, cavanataa, bhedo, antaradhaana.m, maccumara.na.m, kaalakiriyaa, khandhaana.m bhedo, kalebarassa nikkhepo ida.m vuccataavuso mara.na.m. Iti aya~nca jaraa, ida~nca mara.na.m - ida.m vuccataavuso jaraamara.na.m. Jaati samudayaa jaraamara.nasamudayo. Jaatinirodhaa jaraamaraõanirodho. Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo jaraamara.na -nirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa - seyyathiida.m: sammaadi.t.thi, sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo, sammaavaayaamo sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi. 23. "When a noble disciple has thus understood ageing and death, the origin of ageing and death, the cessation of ageing and death, and the way leading to the cessation of ageing and death...he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too, a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma." Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m jaraamara.na.m pajaanaati, eva.m jaraamara.nasamudaya.m pajaanaati, eva.m jaraamara.nanirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m jaraamara.nanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa.tighaanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja.m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassanta"nkaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Sincerely, Scott. #73413 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what was it all about?? jonoabb Hi Herman Whatever your issues may be as regards members of the sangha, I don't see how your bringing them up in this manner is going to lead to a useful discussion of them. Why not try something like this: <<< Dear Phra Alan I am one of those who are sceptical about the way monks support themselves on alms given by lay supporters. It is my view that this encourages people who are too lazy to work to become monks just so they can live on the support given by gullible lay-folk. As a monk yourself, do you have any comments on this? Looking forward to your answer. Regards Herman PS I myself have a proper job, pay my taxes and do all the right things. PPS I should warn you that I can get very upset about this issue, so don't be surprised if your reply provokes a strong response from me. Apologies in advance for any untoward language, especially regarding parts of the body and bodily functions. PPPS Nothing personal of course. Just being matey. >>> Might need some minor polishing, but I think it conveys the message? Jon Egbert wrote: > Hi Alan, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" > wrote: > >> My dear Dhamma friends, >> Now that all the activity has cooled and the excitement waned >> somewhat, can anyone please explain to me - in a few simple sentences >> - what all the controversy was about between impermanence and >> inconstancy; and what were the definitions and conclusions reached. >> i am sorry that I just can't jump straight into the pool and swim;I'd >> drown. But I can start by testing the waters by sticking in my big toe. >> Metta and blessings >> Phra Alan >> (Pannabahulo bhikkhu) >> > > I cannot comment on your question, because I do not know. I also do > not know why you would sign off with telling us what your job is (what > you do to get food into your mouth). Are you an impermanent or an > inconstant bhikkhu? > > Herman IT Manager (agnostic as to what it all means and how long it lasts) > #73414 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for clarifying: N: "this was a former post where I mixed up the terms sama-lobha and visama-lobha, and after that Sarah pointed this out. Visama-lobha is heavy." Scott: PTS PED has: "Visama (adj.) [vi+sama3] 1. uneven, unequal, dishar- monious, contrary... (a˚=sama of the "middle" path). -- 2. (morally) discrepant, lawless, wrong -- 3. odd, peculiar, petty, disagreeable...As nt. an uneven or dangerous or inaccessible place, rough road; (fig.) unevenness, badness, misconduct, disagreeableness" N: "The effect? It depends on the transgression by which you harm yourself or others or both. Akusala kamma will produce an unpleasant result." Scott: Okay, I follow the line from kamma to vipaaka, but can you say more, or direct me to a source which discusses how lobha can be differentiated between 'light' and 'heavy'? N: "Speaking about grief, this is dosa, but it is conditioned by lobha. Grief because of loss is conditioned by clinging to a person, above all clinging to oneself, one misses the pleasant feeling caused by the presence of a beloved one. That clinging is quite normal, and not a transgression." Scott: Thanks. Lobha via root condition, right? Again, might I have an example of how clinging can be 'a transgression'? Would this be when it leads to actions which transgress? I appreciate your consideration. Sincerely, Scott. #73415 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: Thanks. Lobha via root condition, right? Again, might I have > an example of how clinging can be 'a transgression'? Would this be > when it leads to actions which transgress? I appreciate your > consideration. > ++++++++ Dear Scott Dosa does not have lobha as root condition (hetu-paccaya), but it can be conditioned by lobha by other conditions. Robert #73416 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt scottduncan2 Dear Robert, Thanks, man: R: "Dosa does not have lobha as root condition (hetu-paccaya), but it can be conditioned by lobha by other conditions." Scott: Yeah, of course. Dosa is a root itself, right? I'll add 'stunned-because-I-got-up-too-early' as a fourth root. Sincerely, Scott. #73417 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:36 am Subject: Re: what was it all about?? pannabahulo I also do not know why you would sign off with telling us what your job is (what you do to get food into your mouth). Are you an impermanent or an inconstant bhikkhu? > > Herman IT Manager (agnostic as to what it all means and how long it lasts) Precisely Herman.That's what I'm asking. Please tell me whether I'm inconstant, incontinent or impermanent.I'm merely trying to clarify discussion issues so that, in the future, I can take an active part in discussions.My pupose is to learn all i can; I'm trying to find a way that a new member can become involved i.e.understand what is going on. (By the way, it is correct form for a buddhist monk to place the word 'bhikkhu'before or after his Pali name). > #73418 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:30 am Subject: RE: [dsg] A Basic Question About Mind-Door Processes dacostacharles Hi Howard, I forgot to trim so I guess the mods. did it for me. I stumbled on the following post from you and noticed that no one replied to it, so I attempted. "What actually occurs when a rupa is known during a mind-door process? When, for example, warmth is known via body door, there is the knowing of it, the recognizing of it, the feeling of it, attending to it, and so on - the various cetasikas acting on it. What happens later that is different when that "same" warmth is known during the subsequent mind-door process? Is that when it is thought about? Or liked or disliked? Or craved or hated? Or what, exactly? Is it a matter of *other* cetasikas acting on the warmth? If that is not it, then what exactly *is* the difference?" I realized now that I got off track, or misunderstood your questions. So I will start over: "What actually occurs when a rupa is known during a mind-door process?" 1. If ignorance is at the root of the mind-door process, then 'what occurs' would depend on (a) the arisen volitions that lead to degrees of attachment, (b) the availability of the sensory-object, and (c) the object's ability to satisfy the arisen volitions. 2. If wisdom, energy, ... of not-suffering is at the root of the mind-door process, then the radiant wheel of DO comes into effect. Then next set of questions is a bit more difficult because I am not sure what you are really getting at, or after. However, if you are talking about a memory of the sensory-object, i.e., 'warmth,' then what happens that is different is also a question of wisdom or volition. It is too relative to give a straight answer. It you want more let me know. Charles DaCosta P.S.: The labeling of shapes is a mind-door process _____ #73419 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:56 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Humourously swimming in a bottle? dacostacharles Colette, You have to be one of the most colorful people I have come in contact with. Magik -- ... ooo, I am shaking in my boots. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colette Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 07:59 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Humourously swimming in a bottle? Hi Ken, Thanx for the reply. I had a flash of insight (clears throat, if Zanoni's around I got that technique from him :-}) Vipasanna) when you spoke of this "hell". Remember that I'm trying to stay in character so bare with me. This is something that I have to deal with since it relates to a lot of others as well and you'll just have to put up with my "electrical connections". > Thanks for giving it a try. There is a trick to it. What you call the > rabbit in the hat is, in this case, anatta. colette: I've always said that I shouldn't NOT DO SOMETHING simply because the status quo never did it and wouldn't do it, this buddhism is giving me quite the repetoire to apply in my theories of magik. With that as the case then it's not too far of a stretch to realize, cognize, why alchemists and those that study the esoteric have always been and still are persecuted. ---------------------- <....> #73420 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what was it all about?? pannabahulo --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Dear Phra Alan > I am one of those who are sceptical about the way monks support > themselves on alms given by lay supporters. It is my view that this > encourages people who are too lazy to work to become monks just so they > can live on the support given by gullible lay-folk. As a monk yourself, > do you have any comments on this? --------------------------------------------------------------------- I am surprised that there is so much hostility towards monks out there - especially from Jon who, I believe, is a long standing student of the Dhamma.I can only surmise that giving too much attention to Abhidhamma - and not enough to the Suttas and Vinaya - has caused people to lose sight of what exactly the Buddha was doing. Your suggested view that monks are too lazy to work and lay folk are gullible gives a pretty negative view of humanity. Personally, I am nearly 61.In my last job I saved as much money as possible so that I could support myself as a monk.Foreign monks in Thailand do not get much support from lay people. But more importantly you seem to forget the workings of Kamma. The Buddha said that it were better to swallow a red hot ball of iron than to take support from the lay people and not live the holy life properly.The law of Kamma will bear it's own fruit. But the essence of the Buddha's teaching is that we look at our own faults and weaknesses rather than finding fault with others.It is so much easier to find fault with monks who do not want to work than to examine ourselves. Finally, should e not be developing loving kindness towards all beings - lazy and gullible included.We are all suffering beings and by generating negativity towards others we only increase our own misery. And be positive.There are many people who are too lazy to work who have turned to violence, robbery, drug dealing and so on.Becoming a monk is a much better choice is it not? And may gullible people ruin their lives by gambling,being conned and manipulated and through living in fear. So,is giving food to monks such a bad thing anyway? Especially as it is the intention that is all important!! #73421 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:50 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Curiousity Corner 1 dacostacharles Hi all, For those who think the sutra ... (not good) Do you known for a fact that there are no gods named cold clouds and that on a certain day it occurs to them: `What if we delight as much as we like?' According to their intention it becomes cold. Have you existed in all realms of existence and have verified ... Probably not, but it is ok to doubt or not to doubt, ... getting back to overcoming experiences of suffering. Charles DaCosta _____ #73423 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:05 am Subject: RE: [dsg] re: A Basic Question About Mind-Door Processes dacostacharles Hi Howard, The difference is as follows: while only a sensory-object volition has not arisen; and Once the object becomes a mind-door object, volition may accompany it every time it arises (as a memory). Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 16:11 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] re: A Basic Question About Mind-Door Processes Hi, Nina - In a message dated 5/25/07 4:37:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@xs4all. nl writes: > Hi Howard, > > ---------- > > H: What actually occurs when a rupa is known during a mind-door process? > When, for example, warmth is known via body door, there is the > knowing of it, > the recognizing of it, the feeling of it, attending to it, and so on > - the > various cetasikas acting on it. What happens later that is different > when that > "same" warmth is known during the subsequent mind-door process? Is > that when it > is thought about? <....> #73424 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what was it all about?? jonoabb Dear Ven Pannabahulo pannabahulo wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > >> Dear Phra Alan >> I am one of those who are sceptical about the way monks support >> themselves on alms given by lay supporters. It is my view that this >> encourages people who are too lazy to work to become monks just so they >> can live on the support given by gullible lay-folk. As a monk >> yourself, do you have any comments on this? >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I am surprised that there is so much hostility towards monks out there > - especially from Jon who, I believe, is a long standing student of > the Dhamma. > I'm afraid you've misread my message. I was trying to suggest to Herman a more friendly (if more direct) way of making his comments. The views quoted are not my own but my paraphrase of what I understand Herman's views to be. If you have another look you'll see the passage you have quoted is 'signed' by Herman, not by Jon! Apologies for any confusion. Jon #73425 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:16 am Subject: Re: what was it all about?? egberdina Hello Alan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > > I also do not know why you would sign off with telling us what your > job is (what you do to get food into your mouth). Are you an > impermanent or an inconstant bhikkhu? > > > > Herman IT Manager (agnostic as to what it all means and how long it > lasts) > > Precisely Herman.That's what I'm asking. Please tell me whether I'm > inconstant, incontinent or impermanent.I'm merely trying to clarify > discussion issues so that, in the future, I can take an active part in > discussions.My pupose is to learn all i can; I'm trying to find a way > that a new member can become involved i.e.understand what is going on. > (By the way, it is correct form for a buddhist monk to place the word > 'bhikkhu'before or after his Pali name). > > You'll have to ignore our moderators if you want to understand what is going on. They mean well, but they travel to India to have certain relics put on their head, and regularly to one specific site in Thailand to hear what they call Dhamma. But they are genuinely nice people. Alan, I am suspicious of your motivations. You ask about impermanence, a very valid question in the mind of all honest people, yet you assert the correctness of the permanent convention by which you are named. Do you want to be a permanent bhikkhu? Herman #73426 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:25 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what was it all about?? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > > Dear Phra Alan > > I am one of those who are sceptical about the way monks support > > themselves on alms given by lay supporters. It is my view that this > > encourages people who are too lazy to work to become monks just so they > > can live on the support given by gullible lay-folk. As a monk > yourself, > > do you have any comments on this? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > I am surprised that there is so much hostility towards monks out there > - especially from Jon who, I believe, is a long standing student of > the Dhamma.I can only surmise that giving too much attention to > Abhidhamma - and not enough to the Suttas and Vinaya - has caused > people to lose sight of what exactly the Buddha was doing. > Your suggested view that monks are too lazy to work and lay folk are > gullible gives a pretty negative view of humanity. > ++++++ Dear Venerable As it happens Herman is not especially noted for his respect for Abhidhamma. I think you will find that the more anyone studies Abhidhamma the more they respect the Bhikhhu order, and indeed the more they revere the suttas and vinaya.. Jon was rebuking Herman in his post- using irony. Why he didn't simply say things directly I don't know. with respect Robert #73427 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt nilovg Dear Scott, I spoke about grief because that was the original subject. But, as Rob said, lobha is not a root-condition for citta with grief. As to transgression, I mean the akusala kamma patha motivated by lobha. Nina. Op 15-jun-2007, om 14:19 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Again, might I have > an example of how clinging can be 'a transgression'? #73428 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thank you for your reply: N: "I spoke about grief because that was the original subject. But, as Rob said, lobha is not a root-condition for citta with grief. As to transgression, I mean the akusala kamma patha motivated by lobha." Scott: Yeah, that's good. Dosa would be root-condition for citta with grief. I think I'm clear on this now. Sincerely, Scott. #73429 From: "Egbert" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:39 am Subject: Re: what was it all about?? egberdina Dear Robert Kirkpatrick, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > ++++++ > Dear Venerable > As it happens Herman is not especially noted for his respect for > Abhidhamma. I think you will find that the more anyone studies > Abhidhamma the more they respect the Bhikhhu order, and indeed the > more they revere the suttas and vinaya.. You are such an attist, Robert. Get over yourself and your profound craving for all things canonical, that is Abhidhamma in a nutshell. How are you faring in that respect? Do you have any more stories about rabbits obtaining insight? Herman #73430 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] what was it all about?? upasaka_howard Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 6/15/07 6:41:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pannabahulo@... writes: > My dear Dhamma friends, > Now that all the activity has cooled and the excitement waned > somewhat, can anyone please explain to me - in a few simple sentences > - what all the controversy was about between impermanence and > inconstancy; and what were the definitions and conclusions reached. > i am sorry that I just can't jump straight into the pool and swim;I'd > drown. But I can start by testing the waters by sticking in my big toe. > Metta and blessings > Phra Alan > (Pannabahulo bhikkhu) > ========================== I will provide just my perspective, Sir. For me, 'impermanent' means "not remaining". It asserts nothing more than existing at the moment, but not existing at some point in the future. However, 'inconstant' means "not remaining THE SAME," which to me implies continuing "substance" with changing "quality", and that position, because of the implication of continuing substance, strikes me as contrary to the Dhamma. With metta, Howard #73431 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Basic Question About Mind-Door Processes upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - Thanks you for the clarification, Charles! Actually, I think I may have not been all that clear. What I was after was the Abhidhamma understanding of the *difference* between a sense-door apprehending of a rupa and the subsequent mind-door apprehending it - for example, the difference in knowing hardness via body-door versus the subsequent knowing of it via mind-door. Surely there IS a difference. With metta, Howard #73432 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: A Basic Question About Mind-Door Processes upasaka_howard Hi, Charles - In a message dated 6/15/07 9:09:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dacostas@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > > > The difference is as follows: while only a sensory-object volition has not > arisen; and Once the object becomes a mind-door object, volition may > accompany it every time it arises (as a memory). > > > > Charles DaCosta > ========================= Thank you for a really good attempt, Charles. However, Abhidhamma classifies cetana as a "universal", a cetasika that arises with *every* act of knowing, not just mind-door cittas; so, I don't think this is the solution. With metta, Howard #73433 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what was it all about?? upasaka_howard Dear Bhante - In a message dated 6/15/07 9:04:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, pannabahulo@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > >Dear Phra Alan > >I am one of those who are sceptical about the way monks support > >themselves on alms given by lay supporters. It is my view that this > >encourages people who are too lazy to work to become monks just so they > >can live on the support given by gullible lay-folk. As a monk > yourself, > >do you have any comments on this? > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I am surprised that there is so much hostility towards monks out there > - especially from Jon who, I believe, is a long standing student of > the Dhamma.I can only surmise that giving too much attention to > Abhidhamma - and not enough to the Suttas and Vinaya - has caused > people to lose sight of what exactly the Buddha was doing. -------------------------------------------- Howard: Bhante, I don't think there IS much hostility to monks among the laity, Sir. As for Jon, I understood him not to be stating his own position but to be suggesting how Herman might restate his position in what Jon considers a more straightforward and polite way, yet without compromising his position. (Whether Jon or Herman agrees with my assessment, I can't say. It's just the way I understood the matter.) ---------------------------------------------- > > > ======================= With metta, Howard #73434 From: connie Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:27 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (59) nichiconn dear friends, 7. Sattakanipaato 2. Caalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 4: RD: But she discoursed in exultation on what both of them had said, as follows: Lo here! a Sister who the fivefold sense *292 Of higher life hath trained and, self-possessed, Herself well held in hand, hath made her way Where lies the Holy Path, where dwells the Bliss Of mastery over action, speech and thought. (182) *292 The five indriyas, replacing, in the higher life, the importance, in worldly things, of the five senses - viz., faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration, and insight. Maara. Why now and whereto art thou seen thus garbed And shaven like a nun, yet dost not join Ascetics of some sect, and share their rites? What, futile and infatuate, is thy quest? (183) Caalaa. 'Tis they that are without, caught in the net *293 Of the vain shibboleths on which they lean - 'Tis they that have no knowledge of the Truth, 'Tis they that lack all competence therein. (184) Lo! in the princely Saakiya clan is born A Buddha, peerless 'mong the sons of men: 'Tis he hath shown the saving Truth to me Which vain opinions doth overpass. (185) Even the What and Why of ILL, and how Ill comes, and how Ill may be overpassed, E'en by the Ariyan, the Eightfold Path, That leadeth to th' abating of all Ill. (186) And I who heard his blessed words abide Fain only and alway to do his will. The Threefold Wisdom have I gotten now, *294 And done the bidding of the Buddha blest. (187) On every hand the love of sense is slain. *295 And the thick gloom of ignorance is rent In twain. Know this, thou Evil One, avaunt! Here, O Destroyer! shalt thou not prevail. (188) *293 'Sectaries' are termed paasa.n.daa. The Commentary connects the word with paaso, snare, net, but by a false etymology. The origin of the term is obscure. 'Without' (ito bahiddhaa) - i.e., not of us. *294 Cf. Ps. xxiv. {Mettikaa} *295 Cf. Pss. xxxv., xxxvi. {Selaa, Somaa} txt: Atha saa attanaa maarena ca bhaasitaa gaathaa udaanavasena kathentii- 182. "Sati.m upa.t.thapetvaana, bhikkhunii bhaavitindriyaa; pa.tivijjhi pada.m santa.m, sa"nkhaaruupasama.m sukha.m. 183. "Ka.m nu uddissa mu.n.daasi, sama.nii viya dissati; na ca rocesi paasa.n.de, kimida.m carasi momuhaa. 184. "Ito bahiddhaa paasa.n.daa, di.t.thiyo upanissitaa; na te dhamma.m vijaananti, na te dhammassa kovidaa. 185. "Atthi sakyakule jaato, buddho appa.tipuggalo; so me dhammamadesesi, di.t.thiina.m samatikkama.m. 186. "Dukkha.m dukkhasamuppaada.m, dukkhassa ca atikkama.m; ariya.m ca.t.tha"ngika.m magga.m, dukkhuupasamagaamina.m. 187. "Tassaaha.m vacana.m sutvaa, vihari.m saasane rataa; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. 188. "Sabbattha vihataa nandii, tamokkhandho padaalito; eva.m jaanaahi paapima, nihato tvamasi antakaa"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. PRUITT: Then reciting the verses spoken by Maara and her as a solemn utterance, she spoke these verses:% %S I 133f has verses very similar to these but attributed to Siisupacaalaa. 182. Summoning up mindfulness, a bhikkhunii with developed faculties, I pierced the peaceful state, the stilling of the formations, happiness. 183. "Following whose teaching have you shaved your head?" [Maara said to me.] "You seem like an ascetic, but you do not approve of sectarians. Why do you practise this, being foolish?" 184. "Sectarians outside this [Order] rely upon false views," [I answered.] "They do not know the Doctrine. They are not proficient in the Doctrine. 185-186. "The Buddha, the Unrivalled One, was born in the Sakyan clan. He taught me the Doctrine, the complete overcoming of false views: pain, the arising of pain, the overcoming of pain, the noble eightfold path leading to the stilling of pain. * *For "taught ... the Doctrine ... stilling of pain," see Th-a II, p.205 ad vv. 491f. Cf. below vv. 310 (p. 283) {Caapaa, Sisters 68}, 320f. (p.291) {Sundarii, Sisters 69}. 187. "I heard his utterance and dwelt delighting in his teaching. I have obtained the three knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. ** 188. "Everywhere the enjoyment of pleasure is defeated. The mass of darkness [of ignorance] is torn asunder. In this way, know, evil one, you are defeated, death."*** **Verse 187cd = v. 26cd (except for anuppattaa in v. 187 for sacchikataa in v. 26). See the commentary above on v. 26 (p. 48). {A.d.dhakaasii, Sisters 22} ***Verse 188 = v. 59. See the commentary above on that verse (p. 87). {Selaa, Sisters 35} %{CDB: I. Sagaathaavagga 5. Bhikkhuniisa.myutta 8. Siisupacaalaa At Saavatthii. Then, in the morning, the bhikhuni Sisupacaalaa dressed ... she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding. Then Maara the Evil One approached the bhikkhuni Siisupacaalaa and said to her: "Whose creed do you approve of, bhikkhunii?" "I don't approve of anyone's creed, friend." 544. "Under whom have you shaved your head? You do not appear to be an ascetic, Yet you don't approve of any creed, So why wander as if bewildered? [The bhikkhunii Siisupacaalaa:] 545. "Outside here the followers of creeds Place their confidence in views. I don't approve of their teachings; They are not skilled in the Dhamma. 546. "But there's one born in the Sakyan clan, The Enlightened One, without an equal, Conqueror of all, Maara's subduer, Who everywhere is undefeated, Everywhere freed and unattached, The One with Vision who sees all. 547. "Attained to the end of all kamma, Liberated in the extinction of acquisitions, That Blessed One is my Teacher: His is the teaching I approve." Then Maara the Evil One, realizing, "The bhikkhunii Siisupacaalaa knows me," sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.} ===tbc, connie #73435 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ultimates and characteristics. nilovg Hi TG, you have a trip next week and I have one later, so I had better react about this 'business of ultimates and their characteristics'. My impression: you make it far too complicated. it is more simple than you would think. You said this: Analysis, vibhanga. This is not merely intellectual, though it begins with intellectual understanding. Before the as we read in the Satipatthana sutta after each section, can be understood, these dhammas themselves have to be understood. What are they? For this we can turn to M, 137, the Analysis of the Six fold.Taken from Rob K's web Vipassana: The word body is used in the sens eof mental body. PTS has: classes of consciousness. There is a whole section called vibhanga. Do you think that the Buddha would merely speak about intellectual analysis? We have to go deeper into the matter, learn more by getting familiar of what appears now, one dhamma at a time, through one doorway. We have to know the difference between thinking of a whole, the whole body, for example, which is a concept, and being aware of just one object appearing through one doorway, and this is a paramattha dhamma. See this sutta: "Whenever the monk perceives a form with the eye, a sound with the ear, an odour with the nose, a taste with the tongue, an impression with the body, an object with the mind, he neither adheres to the appearance as a whole, nor to its parts. And he strives to ward off that through which evil and unwholesome things, greed and sorrow, would arise, if he remained with unguarded senses; and he watches over his senses, restrains his senses" (MN 38). Attachment is different from seeing, from hardness, from dosa. They are, all of them, different realities. Realities: they are real, not imagination. Gradually one can get used to know different realities, just one at a time. That is a beginning. Have a good trip, Nina. Op 13-jun-2007, om 23:04 heeft TGrand458@... het volgende geschreven: > It seems to me that there is a great deal of speculative overlay, > about the nature of "dhammas," that has been infused into this "direct > experience" you speak of. #73436 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what was it all about?? sarahprocter... Hi Bhante, Howard & Rob K, Firstly, Bhante, thanks for raising your question. I also got rather lost in that thread, so I'll also be glad to read any summaries. --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > Bhante, I don't think there IS much hostility to monks among the > laity, Sir. ... S: I agree. Most people here, including Jon, would have a lot of respect for monks and the Sangha in general. .... > As for Jon, I understood him not to be stating his own position > but to > be suggesting how Herman might restate his position in what Jon > considers a > more straightforward and polite way, yet without compromising his > position. .... S: It's the way I read it too. Rob, you made an interesting comment: "I think you will find that the more anyone studies Abhidhamma the more they respect the Bhikhhu order, and indeed the more they revere the suttas and vinaya.." S: I think it might be helpful if you'd care to elaborate on this. Metta, Sarah ======= #73437 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] a meditation tip, tandem. nilovg Hi Howard, I shall not answer all your points. I do not deny volition, it is there with each and every citta. what I wanted to convey: LET it do its own work, and there is no need to think of it. I brought in substantialism, because when I mention that cetasikas do their own task you are concerned that this is like little selves, etc. Quote from Rob K: < Khanika samadhi, when it is with panna is taking the dhatus, khandas or ayatnas as object - and these are not concepts. They can't be held onto and studied. So the concentration of khanika samadhi is fluid and with detachment. As soon as one tries to hold onto the object the path gets twisted. This doesn't mean that there is no concentration but rather that it is more like letting go than what we usually mean by concentrating. it is like an amazing miracle that citta can arise. For just one citta the extraordinary complexity of paccaya that have to come together - and it is all happening so, so fast. Impossible that anyone could ever arrange any of these to happen.> I would like to add: LET sati do its task, LET realities appear in their own time. Not holding on to them. Nina. Op 15-jun-2007, om 1:23 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, your second sentence was "If you do not mind, perhaps you could > forget about volition for a while." LOL! Is this post an example of > forgetting > about it? ;-)) #73438 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Disappearance of the teachings. nilovg Hi Phil, ----- Ph: If there is textual support that says we should hesitate to be confident in our ability to understand suttas because of chronological distance from the Buddha, I will certainly take it to heart. ---------- N: You asked for textual support that kamma conditions one to be born at an auspicious time so as to hear the Buddha. The four Wheels sutta (D. III, 276, Ang II, 32) mentions among the conditions for kusala: meritorious deeds in the past. Thus, that is kamma. Also dwelling in a suitable place, association with good friends, right adjustment of oneself. Hearing the Buddha is a special kind of hearing, conditioned by great kusala kamma. A sutta: what is the hearing above all, etc. (the anuttariyas). I found the sutta: SII, 266: The Drumpeg. People repaired a kettel drum with pegs and finally only the framework of pegs remained. The teachings are declining and people are more inclined to poetry. Confusing the True Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:154 These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks: 1. do not carefully hear the dhamma, 2. do not carefully learn the dhamma, 3. do not carefully retain the dhamma, 4. do not carefully investigate the significance of the retained dhamma, and 5. do not carefully know what is significant and practice the dhamma according to dhamma. Anguttara Nikaya 5:155 These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks: 1. do not learn the dhamma: [i.e., the] discourses, poems, refrains, verses, utterances, stories, birth-tales, marvels, expositions; 2. do not teach to others in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it; 3. do not make others speak in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it; 4. do not recite together in detail the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it; 5. do not mentally think about and ponder upon, do not consider with the mind, the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have understood it. ------ as to point 1: sutta, geyya etc. this includes the whole of the tipitaka, also the abhidhamma. Nina. #73439 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:39 am Subject: Re: Enlightenment and Nirvana nidive Hi Sudhanadewan, > Could any of the Dhamma friend could tell the difference between > Enlightenment and Nirvana. My definition of nibbana is the reverse order of Dependent Origination: ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." ------------------------------------------------------------------ The realization of the above passage through direct knowledge and experience is what I call enlightenment: the realization of nibbana or the realization of cessation. > Did Buddha attained Nirvana while he was alive or after His death? I will rephrase the question as: "Did the Buddha realize nibbana while alive or after death?". The answer is obvious. > The Third Noble Truth says the end or cessation of suffering. Do we > actually end our suffering? Even Buddha was sick and wounded by His > cousin Devadatta and had showed emotion. The arahant's victory cry starts with "Birth is ended". So, arahants do eventually end their physical suffering after bearing this very last body till death. However, for living arahants, there is no mental suffering. As such, even though the Buddha was wounded, there was no aversion to the physical pain and there was no hate for Devadatta. There was only mindfulness and equanimity towards the physical pain, and lots of metta for Devadatta! Swee Boon #73440 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:50 am Subject: Sammadit.t.hi study corner. nilovg Dear Scott, thank you for the passages. I would like to add something from the Co.: about decay which may be manifest or hidden.