#73600 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello Ken, Wow, this was an interesting response: Ken: There is a recent publication by Steve Salerno called SHAM: How the Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless. It exposes Dr Phil and his cronies for the dangerous charlatans that they are. I think the book would help you to see the futility of any form of self-help program. The self-help gurus are running a multi billion industry that actually targets the kind of people who will come back to buy their books year after year after year. Obviously it is not working - just making money! But, leaving the charlatans aside, it occurs to me that there is no quick fix of any kind (either honest or dishonest) for this kind of thing. If there was one, someone would be marketing it. The exception of, course, is the Dhamma, But even then, it has to be the strictly correct version found in all three Pitakas and the ancient commentaries. Otherwise, I'm afraid, even Buddhism is just another - guaranteed to fail - self help program.. Robert A: A while back you responded to something I wrote with a reference to mind-altering drugs, and now it is Dr. Phil. I don't know much about Dr. Phil. I wonder which one is worse - Dr. Phil or the mind- altering drugs? I haven't been able to make my views understood (or they have been understood and you think I am holding those views because I have been led astray by Dr. Phil or the mind-altering drugs). I could be quite wrong in what I believe and maybe someday I will see that and move on to some other view. At the moment I am content (me and the other lotus-eater Phil). Ken, I am grateful to you for the sincere effort you have made to make your views clear to me and this is very helpful, even if I seem to be so hopelessly misguided. I also see much merit in what you say. But there are points upon which we will disagree. I believe there are certain practices, such as meditation and virtue, that can help one develop the capacity to see more clearly, and I don't think you would agree with me on this. I know the reasons you have given to show me that what I believe is wrong, but at the moment I have what you say on one side and my own experience of practice on the other and for now I am choosing to go with my experience. I know you are sincere in your practice and I wish you well with it. I know you strongly believe that there is a right way and a wrong way to practice and there is no middle ground. I am more inclined to believe that different people can find different approaches to the Dhamma, but there is nothing I know with certainty so we will have to wait and see. Robert A. #73601 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati avalo1968 Hello Nina, Thank you for your response to my posting. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > As someone considers the dhammas that appear, there will be > conditions for pa~n~naa that directly understands realities, without > thinking about them. Kh Sujin said: realities will be the same, but > pa~n~naa grows and then it can be realized that what is directly > known is in conformity with what one learnt from books before.Thus > this is the fourth factor discussed by Ken and you. Perhaps this > answers your question about the connection between intellectual > understanding and direct understanding. > As I understand them, the teachings of Khun Sujin do not allow for what I believe to be true - that there are practices one can undertake to help the mind become more capable of seeing clearly. I'm afraid on this point we will forever disagree. With metta, Robert A. #73602 From: "Egbert" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Right View egberdina Hi Sarah, > ... > S: Can there be 'a quiet solitary circumstance' whilst travelling to work, > talking to colleagues, sorting out computer problems and spending time > with the family? If there's metta, wise reflection on death or any aspect > of the dhamma, or dana, for example, is there not 'quiet solitary > circumstance' at those moments? > Can an alcoholic have a moment of freedom from addiction while sitting at a crowded bar? Can a sex-addict have a moment free from the lump in his trousers while sitting in a 24/7 strip show? Technically, yes. But practically, if you ran a program that advised gentlemen like the above that they ought to be able to be free from their cravings whilst remaining ensconced in the environments that spawn and promote those cravings, your success rate wouldn't be very high. > What about now? Just visible object is being experienced through the > eye-sense. There can be awareness right now and thus there is 'living > alone' in the highest sense of solitary. No doubt, but the gap between the possibility of awareness and the reality of awareness is unbridgable. If there is no awareness now, then there are causes for that. If there is no awareness, and nothing changes, there will not be awareness again, and again, and again..... Herman #73603 From: "colette" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue, knit-picking 101 ksheri3 Hi Phil, Going through teh phase I'm going through <....> > I would change my wording here. Detachment *can* come at any time, > of course. It is possible. But the point is that being told that > there must be detachment from the beginning otherwise the small > occasions of abandoning (not permanently, of course) greed and anger > is useless and possibly even counter-productive in the long run is > incorrect, putting the cart before the horse. colette: look, when anybody tells me that I've gotta do one thing before doing the next thing then I pull back, I coil up, I realize how manipulative people are, and I immediately look for booby- trapsince I know that 99% of all sentient beings are charlattans at the very least and they are out to gratify themselves <...>, the fact is that they are charlattans. They, the charlattans, never have the experience required to assess whether this or that is required before doing something other, they only know the beatten path, the path that they were shown that leads to wealth power and riches. They do not care about any thing other than that which is their reason for breathing my oxygen, they just want money and status. ;-) I can and will stand firmly on the ground that the Theravadan way is not the only way, that the Varjyana way, the middle-way, is equally as conducive to receiving enlightenment and is far more exciting to live. That's my shamanistic side peaking out and establishing itself, no? The Theravadan strictly relies their entire hypothesis on the fact that it's gonna take many lifetimes and after one lifetime then all the people that subjected the student to the slavery that the Theravadan offered, will be dead, so whose gonna know? Can we examine Bolshevik and Menshevik? What about conservative KKK member and the Republican National Committee? How about a Cuban refugee living in Miami and Marxist living in Katmandu? Are we not all in the same bowl, on the same planet, in the same space ship? ------------------------------------------ . You are always so gentle in your tone, a good example for > me. colette: I get that gentleness once in a while but naw, I can't maintain it since I've gotta deal with so much frustration in this poverty stricken existance. good thought though. oh, there's a p.s. and I don't have time to read it. I'll get it when I read what I wrote tomorrow. toodles, colette > > p.s sorry to Sarah, Sukin and Jon and others I owe responses too. > Yes, the story contest deadline is there, so I will stop piling on > to other people's threads until I have time to look after my own!:) > Haha. Until the next time I read a post and pile on to it, like, > tomorrow! > #73604 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello Phil, That is great. I used to love children's books back when I had a little one around to read them to. When I am in a bookstore, I still occasionally browse over in the kid's section - there are always good new books coming out. I have tremendous admiration for the authors who can express profound thoughts in these simple stories and pictures. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Thanks Robert > > Yes, I write children's stories. (Full of clinging to pleasant > concepts!) Seriously, I believe that the sort of pleasant concepts > about people found in picture book stories can be positive condition > for adults to develop more loving-kindness and patience. That's why I > write them. Couldn't care less about the kids! (just joking.) > > Metta, > > Phil > Robert A. #73605 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2007 10:48 pm Subject: Re: Virtue kenhowardau Hi Phil, ---------------- Ph: > A bit silly, Ken. If you want to include Bhikkhu Bodhi, N. Thera and the Burmese sayadaws in with Dr. Phil, that's your business. They are the teachers I listen to. If you listened to them for awhile, maybe, just maybe, you'd begin to see that Acharn Sujin is way out in the woods compared to the rest of the Buddhist world. ------------------ Compared to the rest of the modern-day Buddhist world she is way out on her own. But, compared to the ancient texts, no, she is not saying anything that is not already there. I occasionally challenge certain DSG members to show where KS contradicts the texts in any way, and no one has ever come up with anything. (Corrections welcome.) ------------------------- Ph: > I am always aware of the possibility - and I say this without irony - that she is right and everyone else is wrong! It really is possible. Truly. (No irony.) And don't talk about "ancient texts" unless you want to claim that the venrables mentionned above fail to understand them. Again, that's your business if you want to do that. -------------------------- Of course they fail to understand them! Otherwise, they would be here with us, at DSG, discussing anatta and "no control" and loving every minute of it. :-) I know nothing about the sayadaws, but B.B and B.Thanissaro certainly are familiar with the ancient texts. (They don't understand them as well as they might, but they know what's in them.) BT is quite contemptuous of the commentaries, and he believes that the Abhidhamma is not helpful to meditators. BB politely admits that he cannot accept some of the Abhidhamma (and, I assume, various commentaries). He justifies his contrary views on the basis that, according to certain scientific evidence, the Abhidhama Pitaka is "a later addition" to the Pali Canon. So, who are you going to listen to? Do the sayadaws tell you that attachment to the idea of becoming a better person is a good thing? I can see how that would give you a boost. Steve Salerno talks about the "boost" or "shot in the arm" that self-help books provide for their readers. But enough said abut that! :-) Ken H #73606 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue kenhowardau Hi Robert, ----------- Robert A: A while back you responded to something I wrote with a reference to mind-altering drugs, and now it is Dr. Phil. I don't know much about Dr. Phil. I wonder which one is worse - Dr. Phil or the mind- altering drugs? ------------- Ha ha, I had that coming to me! :-) ------------------- RA: > I haven't been able to make my views understood (or they have been understood and you think I am holding those views because I have been led astray by Dr. Phil or the mind-altering drugs). I could be quite wrong in what I believe and maybe someday I will see that and move on to some other view. At the moment I am content (me and the other lotus-eater Phil). ----------------------- Actually, you took my point about drugs the wrong way. I was trying to describe right understanding - how, IMHO, it had no element of indescribability (awe, wonder, the numinous) about it. But, I failed miserably, so I won't try again just now. And as for the Dr Phil comments: well, I was actually addressing them to Phil (our Phil) more than to you. In the post I was replying to, Phil seemed pretty sure you agreed with his views on self- improvement. So you got tarred with the same brush! :-) -------------------------------- RA: > Ken, I am grateful to you for the sincere effort you have made to make your views clear to me and this is very helpful, even if I seem to be so hopelessly misguided. I also see much merit in what you say. But there are points upon which we will disagree. I believe there are certain practices, such as meditation and virtue, that can help one develop the capacity to see more clearly, and I don't think you would agree with me on this. --------------------------------- Yes, we can agree if only you will see that meditation (bhavana, mental development) and virtue are realities - not concepts. You have no control over them. There is no set of steps (as in an instruction manual) that you can follow in order to have mental development or virtue. Ken H #73607 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati nilovg Dear Rob A., Perhaps the best way is to find out for oneself. One can find out what exactly is seen more clearly. I mean, one reality at a time, since each citta experiences only one object as it appears through one of the senses or the mind-door. As to Kh Sujin's teachings, of course there are different opinions about them. I do not think they are her teachings, they stem from the Tipitaka and Commentaries. But let people express their disagreement, it is an open forum here. It does not hurt to hear different opinions, on the contrary. I find that this makes me consider the Dhamma more, so I wellcome them. Nina. Op 21-jun-2007, om 7:00 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > As I understand them, the teachings of Khun Sujin do not allow for > what I believe to be true - that there are practices one can > undertake to help the mind become more capable of seeing clearly. #73608 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:04 am Subject: Re: Virtue philofillet Hi Ken I guess you got me here, because I have mentionned a self-help book recently, and have said that wanting to become a better person is valid. The other day I read a sutta (SN 35:246, if I recall correctly - I'm at work now) in which the bhikkhu (ie us) is told to refrain from sensual pleasures, because it is a detestable way, a way for "inferior people - it is not for you." And then there is the sutta very early on in MN about how "others will be cruel, there will be no cruelty" and so on for about 60 or 70 other factors. I find a lot of suttas in which becoming a person who behaves in a more wholesome way than those who don't is praised - not as an end in iteself, of course, but the non- remorse that comes with virtuous behaviour is condition for deeper understanding. (See that sutta in AN which Han and I have discussed - sorry, don't have the reference.) If one were to stop there it would be no more than self-help, and indeed self-help is doomed to run into a wall eventually. But it doesn't stop there if one understands the way the Buddha'S gradual training runs its course. > So, who are you going to listen to? Do the sayadaws tell you that > attachment to the idea of becoming a better person is a good thing? I > can see how that would give you a boost. Steve Salerno talks about > the "boost" or "shot in the arm" that self-help books provide for > their readers. But enough said abut that! :-) Enough said. I know you're sincere and deeply interested in Dhamma Ken, and that's what really matters. May our gently agreeing to disagree go on for many, many years! (Is talk of "years" kosher?) metta, phil #73609 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:43 am Subject: Q. Re: [dsg] re Vism.XVII,165 Vism.XVII,166 nilovg Dear Ramesh, You are right about sankhaara (kamma) being the cause of rebirth. That is why the text states: The cause is past kamma. In the preceding section (164) and Tiika this was explained and I quote again what I wrote: Just tell me if anything is not yet clear. Nina. Op 20-jun-2007, om 15:44 heeft Ramesh Patil het volgende geschreven: > But I want to mention here the law of inderdenpendance..Sankhara r > present there.. > one more factor in conciousness..If the kusala sankhara r more..the > person > will be noble..and if akusala r more..then the person will like bad > one..sankhara also matters...depending upon that liking and disliking > matters.. > #73610 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:42 am Subject: Re: Does a "morality" have the chance to arise today? wisdomcompas... Dear Colette, Oh colette we are so different!! Well you can use as much slang as you wish, but then I would also take the liberty of using local native languages of India, like hindi, punjabi, and marwadi :-) metta, nidhi ================== > > colette: hmmmmm, would you care for me to use more slang so that > there is more of a window for you to play the "run around" game? #73611 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:56 am Subject: Re: Vinaya. what was it all about?? part 2. nilovg Hi Howard, Before we return to our original text which is unloved by you, unwelcome to you I have here another text of the Co to the Vinaya (Bahiranidaana) which may facilitate understanding of our original text. It is just before that text. Aspects are given of the three Tipitakas and I hope in this way what you found unappetizing can be made more palatable :-)). You wrote before: Note that with regard to Vinaya, all aspects of restraint are mentioned, see quote above. The Co. does not deny at all the most excellent life of the bhikkhu that leads to arahatship. Satipatthana is like a red thread going through all three pitakas. So, let us not forget the unity in diversity. The Co. merely gives three aspects in different ways. It is never like a rigid classification. Siila is conduct through body and speech, and when we read the Vinaya, we often read that a bhikkhu transgressed through body and speech and that then the Buddha laid down a rule. But, these rules also concern very refined siila, such as eating manners, or joking. It helps the bhikkhu to realize that lobha motivates putting food in your cheeks while chewing, or just making a joke! We can learn from that. Realize your citta when joking or jesting. Perhaps this helps to see the unloved passages differently. As to suttanta, we find many suttas on jhaana, and on the development of different ways of kusala. At the same time we learn about the eightfold Path leading to enlightenment. The Co. certainly did not say that it only deals with suppression. I shall add more when coming to our original text and deal with the three levels of defilements. No need to answer now, I want to go very gently. Nina. #73612 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:45 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Humourously swimming in a bottle? dacostacharles Hi Colette, "something being totally rotten in Denmark," comes from Shakespeare's Hamlet I think. This left me speechless and confused: "... since they avoid me if they see me and the have these preconceived notions about my appearance and so they more than ignore me." If you don't mind - how old are you and what do you mean by it? Charles DaCosta _____ #73613 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:26 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 28. "Saying, Good, friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Saariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: 'But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma?' - 'There might be, friends.' Saahaavusoti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m uttari.m pa~nha.m aapucchu.m: " siyaa panaavuso a~n~nopi pariyaayo yathaa ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato' aagato ima.m saddhammanti?" 29. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands being, the origin of being, the cessation of being, and the way leading to the cessation of being, in that way he is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma. Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako bhava~nca pajaanaati, bhavasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, bhavanirodha~nca pajaanaati, bhavanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. 30. "And what is being, what is the origin of being, what is the cessation of being, and the way leading to the cessation of being? There are three kinds of being: sense-sphere being, fine material being, and immaterial being. With the arising of clinging there is the arising of being. With the cessation of clinging there is the cessation of being. The way leading to the cessation of being is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is right view...right concentration. Katamo panaavuso bhavo? Katamo bhavasamudayo? Katamo bhavanirodho? Katamaa bhavanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa?Ti. Tayo me aavuso bhavaa: kaamabhavo ruupabhavo aruupabhavo. Upaadaanasamudayaa bhavasamudayo. Upaadaana nirodhaa bhavanirodho. Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo bhavanirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa seyyathiida.m: sammaadi.t.thi sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo sammaavaayaamo sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi. 31. "When a noble disciple has thus understood being, the origin of being, the cessation of being, and the way leading to the cessation of being...he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma." Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m bhava.m pajaanaati, eva.m bhavasamudaya.m pajaanaati, eva.m bhavanirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m bhavanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa.tighaanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja.m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassanta"nkaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Sincerely, Scott. #73614 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:52 am Subject: Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... Hi Swee Boon, thanks for your message, I saw it just today, sorry for late reply. metta, nidhi ============ > This middle way is not easy to ferret out. Most people go into either > extremes. > > Swee Boon > #73615 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:31 am Subject: Re: Q. Re: [dsg] re Vism.XVII,165 Vism.XVII,166 rameshat27 Hi Nina, I am new to this Abhidhamma study and Its my always aim to get knowledge and understand the Abhidhamma which is called the heigher dhamma doctrine or paramattha dhamma.. *In my life replying to a great propound Abhidhamma knowledger...I want to bow(namaskar) u with by heart for ur kind compassion and u start giving me such great knowledge of Abhidhamma...Pls accept my bow(namaskar) as usually give here in India to dhammateacher with a great respect......If any time I make mistake..or could not understand the things then at that time don't be compassionate or mild on me..u can scold me at that time so that I came to know the things..I am reading ur Abhidhamma books also so will ask u questions on this..oftenly "But in india everyone dhamma seeker wants this Abhidhamma knowledge..not me..I am compassionate to those and will try to give them also whatever Abhidhamma knowledge I gain from u"* * **************************************************************************** * N:-"You are right about sankhaara (kamma) being the cause of rebirth." R:- Actually first I don't know in detail..sankhara as (kamma) * **************************************************************************** * N:-"That is why the text states: The cause is past kamma. In the preceding section (164) and Tiika this was explained and I quote again what I wrote:" R:- Means the cause and effect is the base and law everywhere in Abhidhamma also..and here the cause is past kamma..but not upto whole level.. * **************************************************************************** * N:-"" R:- Yes, I understood they occur as the cause for the establishment of consciousness on the object by rebirth-linking ...nicely explained Yaa means all this rebirth- linking is carried by flinging...fliging emphasizes the power of the conditions for rebirth. So uptill ignorance and clinging have not been eradicated, kamma, even aeons ago can able to reproduce rebirth..very well explained here..Great!!! metta ******** ramesh ======== On 6/21/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Ramesh, > You are right about sankhaara (kamma) being the cause of rebirth. > That is why the text states: that it arises owing to causes that are included in past becomings.> > The cause is past kamma. In the preceding section (164) and Tiika > this was explained and I quote again what I wrote: <....> #73616 From: connie Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:28 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (60) nichiconn Dear Friends, 7. Sattakanipaato 3. Upacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 4 of 6 txt: Ta.m sutvaa therii jaatiyaa dukkhanimittata.m attano ca tassa visayaatikkama.m vibhaavetvaa tajjentii- 191. "Jaatassa mara.na.m hoti, hatthapaadaana chedana.m; vadhabandhapariklesa.m, jaato dukkha.m nigacchati. 192. "Atthi sakyakule jaato, sambuddho aparaajito; so me dhammamadesesi, jaatiyaa samatikkama.m. 193. "Dukkha.m dukkhasamuppaada.m, dukkhassa ca atikkama.m; ariya.m ca.t.tha"ngika.m magga.m, dukkhuupasamagaamina.m. 194. "Tassaaha.m vacana.m sutvaa, vihari.m saasane rataa; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. 195. "Sabbattha vihataa nandii, tamokkhandho padaalito; eva.m jaanaahi paapima, nihato tvamasi antakaa"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. Pruitt: When she heard this, the therii frightened him, explaining the characteristic of pain in birth and her own overcoming of sense objects. And she spoke these verses: 191. For anyone who is born there is death, the cutting of of hands and feet, slaughter, bonds, and calamity. Anyone who is born suffers pain. 192-193. The Unconquered Awakened One was born in the Sakyan clan. He taught me the Doctrine, the complete overcoming of birth: pain, the arising of pain, the overcoming of pain, the noble eightfold path leading to the stilling of pain.* *For "the noble eightfold path ... pain," see Th-a II, pp. 178f. ad v. 421. 194. I heard his utterance and dwelt delighting in his teaching. I have obtained the three knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching.** 195. Everywhere the enjoyment of pleasure is defeated. The mass of darkness [of ignorance] is torn asunder. In this way, know, evil one, you are defeated, death.*** **Verse 194 = v. 187 (see above, p.209, n.2). {Caalaa, Sisters 59} *** Verse 195 = v. 59 and v. 188 (see above, p.87). {Selaa, Sisters 35} RD: Upacaalaa. To one that's born death cometh soon or late, And many perils at the hands of men: Scathe, torture, loss of limb, *298 of liberty, Nay, life. So Ill-ward bound is the born child. (191) Lo! in the princely Saakiya clan is born He who is Wholly Wake, Invincible. 'Tis he hath shown the saving Truth to me By which the round of birth is overpassed, (192) Even the What and Why of ILL, and how Ill comes, and how Ill may be overpassed, E'en by the Ariyan, the Eightfold Path, That leadeth to th' abating of all Ill. (193) And I who heard his blessed words, abide Fain only and alway to do his will. The Threefold Wisdom have I gotten now, And done the bidding of the Buddha blest. (194) On every hand the love of sense is slain. And the thick gloom of ignorance is rent In twain. Know this, thou Evil One, avaunt! Here, O Destroyer! may'st thou not prevail. (195) *298 Lit., 'cutting (loss) of hand or foot,' referring generally, says the Commentary, to the thirty-two constituents of the body (read kaayaakaaraa for kammakaraa). ===to be continued, connie #73617 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:51 am Subject: Re: what is sati sukinderpal Hi Nidhi, ===================== S: > I am not as optimistic as you to say "it can exclude". It seems to me that > it "will" exclude the present moment and any satipatthana which may > arise would do so in spite of the intention. ************** nidhi: satipatthana is very clear. UNDOUBTEDLY it is about awareness of present moment. And I think excluding present moment is missing the whole practice. sukin: Yes. But I am not sure to what extent we agree. In another post you talked about experiencing something that in your opinion was similar to what people like Krishnamurti, Kabir and Nanak experienced and understood. Are you saying that these people knew about and developed vipassana? If not, what are the similarity / difference between the Buddha's Path and any other. Do you think there is any other practice which could lead to more or less the same goal as Satipatthana? ===================== Nidhi: But I was referring to a different thing. It was 'intention' which i think is different from 'effort'. sukin: I understand that you make this distinction. Later in this post you talk about `motivation to find the truth'. Perhaps you have in mind a combination of `determination' and `sincerity'? If so, then I'd like to point out that these are two of the Ten Perfections, so yes indeed they are very important factors. However `perfections' are what they are by virtue of their being accompanied by wisdom. So it must come back to understanding the moment. Otherwise it is so easy to take any or all of these ten perfections for "self". In which case, they won't serve their function in assisting one towards the goal. I believe all the paramis develop more or less together, in which case without panna having been developed, these qualities would likely be serving `self'. This is why even though apparently there are many sincere and determined people, including those I mentioned above, as long as they don't incline towards Samma Ditthi, Sakya Ditthi will likely dictate the path taken and goal reached. So I don't think it is enough to be intent / determined / sincere, but also the 4NT must be known and appreciated. I would say that the Path begins with some degree of panna, and it is this which would in fact recognize and appreciate the true Dhamma and follow it. ===================== S: >This apparently is not where any of us are at. For us "intention" has > always been tied to lobha and called to satisfy it. ************ N: not necessarily, we do experience desirelessness about the result and indifference with regard to result of dhamma practice. If the motive is 'finding the truth' (or understanding the word DSG uses) it results in detachment to the results to a great extent, and then the process becomes important and not the result (insight). sukin: But is the Truth out there waiting to be discovered or is it arising and falling away `now'? If it is arising and falling away continuously from moment to moment, what is any "intention" to find the truth directed at? If one is trying to catch the moment when in fact it has already fallen away, is this is not due to avijja and tanha? The problem is that we don't know that this is what is going on, theoretically or experientially, and so we continue to grasp at shadows. Grasping at concepts is what we do, with or without Dhamma, but after hearing the Dhamma, we are given a chance to recognize it as such. However for the majority of Buddhists such process continues during `meditation' and this brings with it an illusion of result, as "knowing" and/or "detachment". But the `detachment' which I am concerned with, is one which does not give importance to any `doing', but rather this `doing' itself is seen as conditioned / an instance of attachment. In other words, panna knows and detaches, no matter what the reality, and has no reason to follow any so called, `process'. ================= S: > It is in part, this latter according to my understanding, which makes > the `illusion of knowing the present moment' a hindrance to the present > moment actually being known. ****************** nidhi: yes quite true. If intention is not right the result is not good. sukin: I don't know Nidhi, if you are saying that intention place a decisive role in the development of the Path, then I have to disagree. ================= S: > If after all, one believes that the > experience during formal sittings / retreats *is sati* and those were > preceded by intention, then focusing on the present moment at other > times giving rise to similar experiences, would reinforce that illusion. > And so `intention' becomes important if not key. ***************** N: I do not know whom you are referring to, may be you have memory or experience of someone practicing in such manner. But I do not practice in such a way. thought i go to retreat, but my intention is understanding the truth of mind. sukin: But why "retreat"? Do you not see it as better than here and now? Do you not have an idea of `extended time' and `situation'? And is this a judgment made by panna, if so, with what kind of understanding? I doubt that you will be able to give a tenable explanation for this. I think it is only with tanha if not also wrong view, that one projects a better time and place for `practice'. :-) ================== S: > Niddhi, I think `intention to note' whether now or in a retreat, for ones > with limited understanding as we, conditions just more "thinking". It is > this thinking (apparently different from the kind we have been used to > recognize as so), which is taken by meditators the world over, > as "satipatthana". And not knowing better, one goes about mistaking > lobha for sati on and on. It becomes harder to see through the illusion > as time goes on. Better to muster courage and admit that one is wrong > about such experiences *now*, and to being very much a beginner, > which I am happy to say that I am. Discouraging though this may > sometimes appear to be, which again would only be in relation to yet > another wrong way of thinking, I believe that it is infinitely better to not > having made more than one step on the Path, than to be taking "many" > in the wrong direction. *********************** Nidhi: I think it is important what cetcika one is experiencing while doing a thing. Yes, it is very important for anyone interested in satipatthana to understand the subtelity of sati. It is not normally explained and very hard to see actually, but understanding of it is of worth. I do not know what your actual beliefs are but I agree on above written. sukin: Yes to know what sati is and what the object of satipatthana might be. But it is more important to actually experience the difference, because not only does one then know the characteristic, but also that sati arises only when the conditions are in place. I think this later is more important to understand, since we then don't go about "trying" to induce sati. Before that even a little reflection on the happenings of daily life, we can see that no dhamma is within control, and this can help steer us away from the wrong path in which subtle lobha is usually mistaken for sati. I realize that I have disagreed with almost everything you suggested. But we are here to discuss, not to agree, isn't it? ;-) With metta, Sukinder #73618 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sisters (55) jonoabb Hi Connie connie wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Pruitt: > Then Gotami and the other bhikkhuniis paid homage to the Conqueror, and > they arose from their seats and returned [to their monastery]. > Together with a great group of people, the Supreme Leader of the World, > the Hero, accompanied his aunt as far as the gateway [of the city]. > > Jon: Interesting that the Buddha accompanied her to the gates of the > monastery after she had taken her final leave. Perhaps unique in the texts? > > connie: is it? literally, there was going to be no 'gate way'/mind door > for a succeeding process / following. Well, yes, in that sense the Buddha accompanied (or indeed led) many to the gateway for a final goodbye. But Gotami was accompanied in both senses, so still unique ;-)) I wonder what kind of deed may have been the cause for her to have been accompanied to the city gates by a Buddha. > or did you mean the walking r/t > the stopping? as in buddhas point the way but ... nah. sorry, did you > want to make something of it? > > cy 161 (p185): "....the noble discioples who have become the embodiment of > the Doctrine ..." > A description of the arahant, or perhaps of a particular class of arahant. Any thoughts? Jon #73619 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati jonoabb Hi Nidhi wisdomcompassion wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Yes that was perfect. yes there is awareness of one dhamma at one > moment of awareness. I think awareness must be worded as awareness of > what arises at moment, not awareness of citta, because it confuses > people who are not familiar with Sujin B's teachings like me. Further > it sounds like awareness either of a concept (citta is concept for > people like us, we can understand it only intellectually) or thinking > or imagination. > To my understanding, awareness should be worded as awareness of a dhamma that is arising at the present moment. The term 'dhamma' refers here to those things the Buddha was talking about when he spoke of the (5) khandhas/aggregates, the (6 or 12) ayatanas/sense-bases, the (18) dhatus/elements, the (4) satipatthanas/foundations of mindfulness, etc. One such dhamma is citta. As a khandha, it is vinnana khandha, as an ayatana it is mana-ayatana, as an element it is mano-dhatu and mano-vinnana-dhatu, as one of the satipatthana it is citta-anupassana. These classifications are different ways of classifying the same set of dhammas. It helps to understand these things intellectually so that the practice can be properly grounded in the teachings. Otherwise it is easy to pursue a practice that is not actually what the Buddha taught, despite the fact that it may be a widely followed practice (or a practice that appears to bring results of the kind we associate with progress on the path). Knowing what can (and what cannot) be the object of awareness is an important aspect of this. Jon #73620 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:24 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 5, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 5 Conascence-Condition (Sahajåta-Paccaya) and Mutuality- Condition (Aññamañña-Paccaya) The Påli term sahajåta in sahajåta-paccaya means: that which has arisen together. In the case of conascence-condition, a conditioning dhamma, paccaya dhamma, on arising, causes the conditioned dhammas, paccayupanna dhammas, to arise simultaneously with it. In the case of proximity-condition and contiguity-condition, the conditioning dhamma arises previously to the conditioned dhamma, but in the case of conascence-condition the conditioning dhamma and the conditioned dhamma arise at the same time. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XVII, 77): A dhamma which, while arising, assists (another dhamma) by making it arise together with itself is a conascence-condition, as a lamp is for illumination... For the explanation of conascence-condition the “Visuddhimagga” uses the simile of an oil lamp: when its flame appears the light, colour and heat are produced simultaneously with it. Light, colour and heat produced by the flame are not present before the flame appears nor after it dies out [1]. We read in the “Patthåna” (II, Analytical Exposition, 6, Conascence- condition) about different classes of phenomena, nåma and rúpa, to which conascence-condition pertains. We read with regard to the first class: The four immaterial aggregates (nåma-kkhandhas) are mutually related to one another by conascence-condition. Viññånakkhandha, citta, cannot arise without the three other nåma- kkhandhas, namely: vedanåkkhandha (feeling), saññåkkhandha (remembrance or perception) and saòkhårakkhandha (formations, the other cetasikas). Citta is different from cetasika, it does not feel or remember; citta is the “chief” in cognizing an object but it needs the accompanying cetasikas which share the same object and which each have their own task while they assist the citta. Citta cannot arise without cetasika and cetasika cannot arise without citta, they condition one another by conascence-condition. Citta needs for example the cetasika phassa, contact, which contacts the object so that citta can cognize it. Thus, citta is conditioned by phassa by way of conascence. Phassa is conditioned by citta and the accompanying cetasikas by way of conascence. When phassa accompanies akusala citta it is also akusala and when it accompanies kusala citta it is also kusala. -------- 1. See “Guide to Conditional Relations” Part I, p. 23, by U Nårada. ****** Nina. #73621 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:35 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch. 3, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, The whole day we touch things such as a plate, a cup, a table. Body- consciousness experiences hardness. Usually we are absorbed in the objects we handle and we do not pay attention to the characteristic of hardness. But sometimes there are conditions for considering the characteristic of hardness. This is conditioned by listening to the Dhamma. When sati arises one may begin to see the difference between the moments we are absorbed in concepts and the moments that there is awareness and a beginning of understanding of a reality which appears. However, we should not expect to have clear understanding of realities immediately. One may have doubt whether there was sati or only thinking of realities. When thinking arises it does so because of conditions and it should be known as a type of nåma, not self. This is the way to continue developing satipatthåna. There should be no worry, because whatever happens is conditioned. When paññå has been developed to the degree that the first stage of insight is reached, the characteristic of nåma is clearly distinguished from the characteristic of rúpa. However, sati can arise even when this stage is not realized yet. There has to be a beginning, sati has to be aware over and over again of whatever reality appears, this is the only way that paññå can develop. When sati is attentive, aware of a characteristic, paññå can investigate that reality. Before we listened to the Dhamma there was complete ignorance of realities, we did not know the difference between concepts and paramattha dhammas. Through satipatthåna we can verify that what the Buddha taught is true. The theory of the teachings is in agreement with what is realized through the practice, the development of paññå. As understanding develops confidence in the teachings will grow. The ariyan, the person who has attained enlightenment, has strong confidence, saddhå, he has confidence to the degree of “power” [1]. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (III, Book of the Fives, Ch I, 2, The Powers in detail) about the power of faith: And what monks, is the power of faith? Herein, monks, the ariyan disciple has faith and believes in the enlightenment of the Tathågata: Of a truth he is the Exalted One, arahat, fully enlightened, abounding in wisdom and right, the well-gone, the world- knower, the incomparable tamer of tamable men, the teacher of devas and men, the Buddha, the Exalted One. This, monks, is called the power of faith.... --------- 1. Some of the wholesome cetasikas, when they are developed and have become firm, are called “powers”, balas. They are: confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. In some texts conscientiousness and fear of blame are also classified as powers. Powers are unshakable by their opposites. ******* Nina. #73622 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati, satipatthanasutta. nilovg Hi Howard, Still somewhat puzzled by: paramattha dhammas, as separate, well defined, unvarying "things", though closer to "reality", are also concept/ categorization. concept/categorization? Perhaps you use the term concept in a way different from my way? As I understand it, a tree is a whole, a body is a whole, not a paramattha dhamma that can be experienced through one doorway at a time. Unvarying, yes, they have unalterable characteristics. We can change the names but the characteristics are always valid. Nina. Op 20-jun-2007, om 15:03 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Actually, as I see it, paramattha dhammas, as separate, well defined, > unvarying "things", though closer to "reality", are also concept/ > categorization. As > I see it, what underlies all those thoughts of trees and people and > also > hardnesses and knowings is an unnamable but directly-knowable-in- > the-moment reality > no isolated aspect of which is permanent, nor personal, > substantial, or > self-existent (in short "self"), nor a source of satisfaction. #73623 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:51 am Subject: Re: what is sati avalo1968 Hello Sukinder, Can I ask you to clarify something you wrote in this post to Nidhi: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > ...... > > sukin: I don't know Nidhi, if you are saying that intention place > a decisive role in the development of the Path, then I have to > disagree. > ================= It seems clear to me that, every moment of every day, I am exercising intention - the intention to act with restraint of the senses or the intention to indulge them, the intention to loosen my grip or to tighten it, the intention to respond to someone else's words with metta or with anger. I believe that the choices I make in each of these situations do play a decisive role in my experience of the world and in determining my capacity to see the truth. I presume that you are making the same kind of choices. Haven't you had the same experience that depending on if you make choices that are skillful or unskillful, your experience of the world is different, and isn't that difference significant to the state of your mind and your ability to see things more clearly? With metta, Robert A. #73624 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > < snip >--------------------------------- > > Yes, we can agree if only you will see that meditation (bhavana, > mental development) and virtue are realities - not concepts. You have > no control over them. There is no set of steps (as in an instruction > manual) that you can follow in order to have mental development or > virtue. > > Ken H > Maybe I would reverse it and say there are steps such as mental development and virtue, generousity and restaint of senses, patience and forgiveness you can follow to work with the state of your mind and develop the capacity to see things more clearly. For an instruction manual, a good place to start is the Dhammapada. With metta, Robert A. #73625 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:22 am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... Hi Jon, Thanks for clarifying what we mean by dhamma, So we agree that awareness has to be awareness of dhamma (as described by you),and it happens at the moment (the smallest possible unit of time for us to be aware of). But in most of the communication that I see here is about citta 'arising and falling away' .But we can actually percieve a single unit of citta with reference to one moment, not with reference to the trillionth part of moment in which citta actually arises and falls away. since in abhidhamma citta has been given particular meaning it should be referred with that meaning. though in sutta citta referes to simply mind or consciousness only. It sounds just like as if instead of using the word rupa one starts using the word kalapa. It looks impossible to observe kalapa for us. anyway, now since I understand the context in which the word citta is being used, it makes no difference if this word is used in the way it was being used earlier. Now I am clear of what is actually meant. metta, nidhi ==================== > Hi Nidhi > > wisdomcompassion wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > > Yes that was perfect. yes there is awareness of one dhamma at one > > moment of awareness. I think awareness must be worded as awareness of > > what arises at moment, not awareness of citta, because it confuses > > people who are not familiar with Sujin B's teachings like me. Further > > it sounds like awareness either of a concept (citta is concept for > > people like us, we can understand it only intellectually) or thinking > > or imagination. > > > > To my understanding, awareness should be worded as awareness of a dhamma > that is arising at the present moment. The term 'dhamma' refers here to > those things the Buddha was talking about when he spoke of the (5) > khandhas/aggregates, the (6 or 12) ayatanas/sense-bases, the (18) > dhatus/elements, the (4) satipatthanas/foundations of mindfulness, etc. > > One such dhamma is citta. As a khandha, it is vinnana khandha, as an > ayatana it is mana-ayatana, as an element it is mano-dhatu and > mano-vinnana-dhatu, as one of the satipatthana it is citta-anupassana. > These classifications are different ways of classifying the same set of > dhammas. > > It helps to understand these things intellectually so that the practice > can be properly grounded in the teachings. Otherwise it is easy to > pursue a practice that is not actually what the Buddha taught, despite > the fact that it may be a widely followed practice (or a practice that > appears to bring results of the kind we associate with progress on the > path). Knowing what can (and what cannot) be the object of awareness is > an important aspect of this. > > Jon > #73626 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati, satipatthanasutta. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/21/07 9:59:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Still somewhat puzzled by: paramattha dhammas, as separate, well > defined, > unvarying "things", though closer to "reality", are also concept/ > categorization. > concept/categorization? Perhaps you use the term concept in a way > different from my way? > As I understand it, a tree is a whole, a body is a whole, not a > paramattha dhamma that can be experienced through one doorway at a time. > Unvarying, yes, they have unalterable characteristics. We can change > the names but the characteristics are always valid. > Nina. > ======================= A paramattha dhamma is indeed experienced through a single door. But a conglomerate is also experienced through a single door, the mind door. While we *speak* of seeing a tree, touching a tree, smelling a tree, and so on, in fact we only cognize a tree. Another alleged distinction is that a conglomerate is a mental construct, but not so for a paramattha dhamma. But according to the commentaries, a rupa consists of an arising stage, a stasis stage, and a stage of decline, which means that it is not the identical phenomenon throughout, which makes a rupa a (simple) conglomerate. A bodily sensation, a pressure for example, varies in intensity and quality, but is viewed as a single dhamma because of noted similarity, such perspective being a convention. And namas are operations, and they certainly are not the same throughout, else they could not function. There are differences, though. A tree, for example, is constructed in a far more complex manner than a nama or rupa. The construction is done by drawing upon multi-sense-door inputs, the inputs not even drawn from within a contiguous time interval. So, these conglomerates are further from reality than the paramattha dhammas. All our naming and characterizing, however, is convention. But what, then, is it that is actual and real? At any instant, whatever is the content of experience is, indeed, the content of experience, and, as such, it is actual, it is real - but it is without name, without essence, and without other than conventional characterization. There should not be such a striving to establish the "reality"of paramattha dhammas. Striving to view as real does not conduce to relinquishment. A more suitable striving would be to view everything as lacking in lastingness, lacking in satisfactoriness, and lacking in self. Dhammas should be relinquished, not cherished as "realities". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #73627 From: "wisdomcompassion" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:31 am Subject: Re: what is sati wisdomcompas... Hi Sukin, > sukin: Yes. But I am not sure to what extent we agree. In another post > you talked about experiencing something that in your opinion was > similar to what people like Krishnamurti, Kabir and Nanak experienced > and understood. Are you saying that these people knew about and > developed vipassana? If not, what are the similarity / difference > between the Buddha's Path and any other. Do you think there is any > other practice which could lead to more or less the same goal as > Satipatthana? *********************** Nidhi: See, all the people who became saints were people whose heart was more purified than us. So, what makes the heart purified. This is an art, which can be explained therotically as well(I have talked enough about it in lots of other posts), but it is a practical thing. Without exception there is no saint who hasn't talked about it. so they were purified people, 'the saints'. The level of insight differs in all saints. I regard that buddha went the farthest, he went beyond consciousness, i am not sure about this with regard to other saints. But they all knew about the path of purification. It is one for all. All the saints have talked about the same thing as long as the way of purification is concerned. They used different words depending upon what language they know. I happen to understand it by chance. From that day I understand what the saint is saying. Doing it is very very difficult, one needs very strong viriya parami. I have explained the fourth noble truth in lots of messages of mine. But if one tries to find it in books one might not find in aeons. I am a very 'average' type of normal person. Defilements are very strong in me. But after finding it my life wasn't easier. Because it is very difficult to do. And other things look very disinteresting to me now. But doing this looks very very difficult, doesn't look possible for me at times. *********************** This is why even though apparently there are many > sincere and determined people, including those I mentioned above, as > long as they don't incline towards Samma Ditthi, Sakya Ditthi will likely > dictate the path taken and goal reached. So I don't think it is enough to > be intent / determined / sincere, but also the 4NT must be known and > appreciated. ********************** N: Do you know what samma ditthi is ? anything which strengthens opinions takes one away from Samma ditthi. Weakening the opinion making mechanism of mind leads one to Samma ditthi. So please be careful when you use the adjectives (good/bad, right/wrong etc.); it leads you away from samma ditthi. Without going deeper into one's mind and finding out what is sanna and what makes sankhara, can one find samma ditthi? Ditthi word is closely associated with perception, or vision. We strengthen the perception the whole day and talk of samma ditthi. *********************** > sukin: But is the Truth out there waiting to be discovered or is it arising > and falling away `now'? If it is arising and falling away continuously from > moment to moment, what is any "intention" to find the truth directed at? > If one is trying to catch the moment when in fact it has already fallen > away, is this is not due to avijja and tanha? The problem is that we > don't know that this is what is going on, theoretically or experientially, > and so we continue to grasp at shadows. ************************ N:If you want to find the truth in the moment; It can be found in the moment also. Depends upon the person, i would say. But burning desire to find the truth and rejecting everything other than truth are the key, I suppose. ************************ > Grasping at concepts is what we do, with or without Dhamma, but after > hearing the Dhamma, we are given a chance to recognize it as such. > However for the majority of Buddhists such process continues > during `meditation' and this brings with it an illusion of result, > as "knowing" and/or "detachment". But the `detachment' which I am > concerned with, is one which does not give importance to any `doing', > but rather this `doing' itself is seen as conditioned / an instance of > attachment. In other words, panna knows and detaches, no matter > what the reality, and has no reason to follow any so called, `process'. ************************* Nidhi:Everyone's meditation experience differs depending upon the anusaya one has. Why do you bring meditation into question all the time? Have you seen any saint who didn't meditated? I do not about Christ, but all other whom I have read about were very good at meditation. Be it kabir, krishnamurti, mahavir, buddha. Though I agree that moment to moment awareness is the direct path to enlightenment, but please understand that for people with thick defilements like us meditation is very useful. Even if you do not like it, don't make your release more difficult by condemning it. Just an opinion, of course, you are your own master. ********************** > sukin: I don't know Nidhi, if you are saying that intention place a > decisive role in the development of the Path, then I have to disagree. *********************** Nidhi: I think that it plays a very important role. When one feels burning desire for 'finding' truth and rejects everything else then only it comes. *********************** > S: > If after all, one believes that the > > experience during formal sittings / retreats *is sati* and those were > > preceded by intention, then focusing on the present moment at other > > times giving rise to similar experiences, would reinforce that illusion. > > And so `intention' becomes important if not key. > ***************** > sukin: But why "retreat"? Do you not see it as better than here and > now? Do you not have an idea of `extended time' and `situation'? And is > this a judgment made by panna, if so, with what kind of understanding? > I doubt that you will be able to give a tenable explanation for this. I think > it is only with tanha if not also wrong view, that one projects a better > time and place for `practice'. :-) *********************** Nidhi: I go to retreat, after 6 months but in every retreat, I found something which was not possible at home. May be Buddha must be right in referring to Sila, samadhi, and panna formula. Without deep concentration very deep insight doesn't come. It is neither craving nor wrong view. All my retreat experience had been very good for penetrating dhamma. I do not know why you call it tanha. May be your experience was not good. But history doesn't repeat itself!! But don't condemn meditation, if you do not understand it. This is my sincere request. ********************** > sukin: Yes to know what sati is and what the object of satipatthana > might be. But it is more important to actually experience the difference, > because not only does one then know the characteristic, but also that > sati arises only when the conditions are in place. I think this later is > more important to understand, since we then don't go about "trying" to > induce sati. Before that even a little reflection on the happenings of daily > life, we can see that no dhamma is within control, and this can help > steer us away from the wrong path in which subtle lobha is usually > mistaken for sati. ******************** N: Not actually, See the importance of satipatthana lies not in understanding Dhammas, But the most important part is to understand that what does sati does actually. I am sure that Sati makes the pahana possible. Without Sati no pahana can be done. The most important part of satipatthana is 'what does Sati does actually'. When one understands that one understands the fourth noble truth. And that Truly is 'ekayano maggo'. No other path does exist. That is my belief. ******************** > > I realize that I have disagreed with almost everything you suggested. > But we are here to discuss, not to agree, isn't it? ;-) > > With metta, > > Sukinder ********************* Nidhi: Doesn't matter. with metta nidhi #73628 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner and Co. nilovg Dear Scott, It is good you also give the Pali. 'Being' is the translation here of bhava, becoming. The co begins to mention two meanings: kamma bhava and upapatti bhava, kamma and rebirth. This is useful, since in the paticcasamuppaada we have to distinguish these two. N: Thus we have to keep in mind the two meanings of bhava. N: When kamma that will produce rebirth is akusala, only then grasping is a condition as decisive support and as conascence. In the case of kusala kamma there cannot be conascent grasping. Here the kamma bhava is dealt with, not the upapatti bhava. --------- Nina. Op 21-jun-2007, om 13:26 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > 29. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands being, the origin of > being, the cessation of being, and the way leading to the cessation of > being, in that way he is one of right view...and has arrived at this > true Dhamma. > > Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako bhava~nca pajaanaati, > bhavasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, bhavanirodha~nca pajaanaati, > bhavanirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavataapi kho > aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme > aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. #73629 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Humourously swimming in a bottle? ksheri3 Hi Charles, Mid 40s Something being rotten in Denmark is a colloquialism from the U.S.A. used in a derogatory manner implying that there is chicanery, larceny, being applied by one person to another. It only had the meaning that I've always laughed, found it amusing, that the society I live in here in the U.S.A. automatically discriminates against another society and it's entire population in the same act as trying to show one person's distrust for another person, in the U.S.A. If you meant an explanation concerning that people deliberately and intentionally avoid any and all contact with me I am simply stating FACTS and OBSERVATIONS. This is how it is, type of thing. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > > > "something being totally rotten in Denmark," comes from Shakespeare's Hamlet > I think. <.....> #73630 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:13 pm Subject: Re: Does a "morality" have the chance to arise today? ksheri3 Hi Nidhi, Ouch, native languages of India, hindi, punjabi, marwadi, oh they sound delicious! I've been going through some heavy catharcism lately as I meditate on the Mahamudra, Dzogchen, 6 Yogas of Naropa, etc. and today I went on a massive clean up effort with all my papers. I was rather astonished to find that the majority of my Buddhist material is centered on the Kagyu, Yogacara, Madyamika, Asanga-Vasubandhu-Nargarjuna, a smattering of Nyngma, and quite astonishingly I found Vispissana material from Nina as well as another paper from Abhidhamma.org that she wrote, the name escapes me at the second. You would never believe how space consuming paperwork is when it is laid out horizontally but when it is filed correctly verticlely then there isn't any consumption of space at all, comparitively. I'll get back later. gots ta go. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wisdomcompassion" wrote: > > Dear Colette, > > Oh colette we are so different!! Well you can use as much slang as you > wish, but then I would also take the liberty of using local native > languages of India, like hindi, punjabi, and marwadi :-) > > metta, > nidhi > > ================== > > > > colette: hmmmmm, would you care for me to use more slang so that > > there is more of a window for you to play the "run around" game? > #73631 From: "colette" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:58 pm Subject: Dining on Hindi phraseology ksheri3 Hi Nidhi, Now thaqt I've got a second allow me to say, PLAY THROUGH! ;) Lets have at this, shall we. Now that my paperwork is focusing in my abode I'm focussing on Semde, Longde, and menngagede. At this moment it is Semde although I'm anticipating more from you concerning Hindi since I noticed that towards the end when I was simply looking to formulate catagories for my hanging file folders I said that Shindon and Zen go together being Japanese and Yogi/Yoga and Hindu go together being India. Well, since I saw my mom die a week, seven days, before she died and put in a request chit, request for emergency leave, yet was denied, and the result was that my mom died seven days later by choking on a piece of meat I naturally went to the Thuggie Cult, akin to the Chicago Tribune (tc = ct, inside out) and strangulation as the mode of death wqhich the cult prefers and honors. We can also get into Hollywierd's perversion of the Thuggie Cult by associating them with Kali through the movie Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom where they search for one of the Shankara stones. But my Hindu theology is but a smattering of <...> sex rituals based on the Kamma Sutra and a few Yoga papers from some Yogi that I haven't even bothered to read his name. I do live a mile or two from a Kriya Temple on Kedzie in Chicago if you care to recognize that. I am not focusing on the Hindu side of Yogas right now although I do have to find a place for my pranayama material. I'm in a situation where I automatically associate pranayama with the Golden Dawn since that is where I learned it from but so many things are associated with them <...> lets categorize it properly. Now we'd be talkin' chakras, et al. aka KUNDALINI. <...> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "wisdomcompassion" wrote: > > Dear Colette, > > Oh colette we are so different!! Well you can use as much slang as you > wish, but then I would also take the liberty of using local native > languages of India, like hindi, punjabi, and marwadi :-) <...> #73632 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue corvus121 Hi Robert A (and Ken H) I hope you're enjoying DSG. I have a few comments re what you wrote here: > Maybe I would reverse it and say there are steps such as mental > development and virtue, generousity and restaint of senses, patience > and forgiveness you can follow to work with the state of your mind and > develop the capacity to see things more clearly. > > For an instruction manual, a good place to start is the Dhammapada. First of all, I usually find Instruction Manuals to be appallingly written! :-) And maybe even the Dhammapada could be more clear in its message. For example, we recently had a discussion on Dh verse 163: "Easy to do are things that are bad and harmful to oneself. But exceedingly difficult to do are things that are good and beneficial." So my first question is: Is it your experience that "mental development and virtue, generosity and restraint of senses, patience and forgiveness" are, in the Buddha's words, "exceedingly difficult to do"? If not, why are those words in the Instruction Manual? ;-) Before you answer that question, you will see in messages like #72521 and #72755 that commentaries suggest to us that the *true* meaning of verse 163 is actually very different from the natural/normal meaning of the words. Now, I ask you, what sort of an Instruction Manual is that? Could not one be completely misled by simply reading it at face value? And what does that mean for our well-meaning advice to read the Dhammapada as a beginner's guide or instruction manual? [Don't answer these questions, Robert - they are all rhetorical to make a point i.e. there is no substitute for a full and wide-ranging study of the Dhamma in its overall context. The Buddha himself said that his Dhamma was profound and difficult to see. We need to take that more seriously than we often do.] So there you have it - Phil is not the only one allowed to have a little vent on DSG from time to time (spaced out nicely). :-)) Here endeth the sermon. Hope it wasn't too long! Best wishes Andrew #73633 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello Andrew, Thank you for your comments. Your response to my post was in the true spirit of the DSG, and demonstrates perfectly why I will always be swimming against the tide in this group. It is my observation that Western followers of the Buddha have a tendency to make things a lot more complicated than they need to be. I have had many conversations with people so busy tying themselves up in analytical knots that in the end they cannot act on what is right before them. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > Hi Robert A (and Ken H) > > First of all, I usually find Instruction Manuals to be appallingly > written! :-) And maybe even the Dhammapada could be more clear in > its message. For example, we recently had a discussion on Dh verse > 163: > > "Easy to do are things that are bad and harmful to oneself. But > exceedingly difficult to do are things that are good and beneficial." > > So my first question is: Is it your experience that "mental > development and virtue, generosity and restraint of senses, patience > and forgiveness" are, in the Buddha's words, "exceedingly difficult > to do"? If not, why are those words in the Instruction Manual? ;-) > > Before you answer that question, you will see in messages like #72521 > and #72755 that commentaries suggest to us that the *true* meaning of > verse 163 is actually very different from the natural/normal meaning > of the words. > > Now, I ask you, what sort of an Instruction Manual is that? Could > not one be completely misled by simply reading it at face value? And > what does that mean for our well-meaning advice to read the > Dhammapada as a beginner's guide or instruction manual? [Don't > answer these questions, Robert - they are all rhetorical to make a > point i.e. there is no substitute for a full and wide-ranging study > of the Dhamma in its overall context. The Buddha himself said that > his Dhamma was profound and difficult to see. We need to take that > more seriously than we often do.] > > So there you have it - Phil is not the only one allowed to have a > little vent on DSG from time to time (spaced out nicely). :-)) > > Here endeth the sermon. Hope it wasn't too long! > > Best wishes > Andrew > May I suggest that, at least for a little while, you try taking the teachings of the Buddha at face value. Just do what the Buddha says, practice restraint, be generous, practice non-harming, and the precepts, and patience. Do these things as a practice - take a vow to practice right speech in a specific situation where you know you tend to not. Do this and see for yourself if doing so changes your experience of your world. This is just a suggestion you are free to ignore. I wish you the best with whatever kind of practice you choose to undertake. To answer your question: > So my first question is: Is it your experience that "mental > development and virtue, generosity and restraint of senses, patience > and forgiveness" are, in the Buddha's words, "exceedingly difficult > to do"? Yes, they are difficult indeed, but it is well worth the effort. I am fine with taking these words at face value, but you are welcome to go on looking for the true meaning if you like. I could be completely wrong in what I am doing, but I have made the decision to see it through unless my experience of this practice convinces me it is the wrong way to go. I cannot see the wrongness of my practice from a book or posting. I have to be able to see it in my experience of life. Robert A. #73634 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: what is sati avalo1968 Hello Nina, Thank you for your posting. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Rob A., > Perhaps the best way is to find out for oneself. One can find out > what exactly is seen more clearly. I mean, one reality at a time, > since each citta experiences only one object as it appears through > one of the senses or the mind-door. > As to Kh Sujin's teachings, of course there are different opinions > about them. I do not think they are her teachings, they stem from the > Tipitaka and Commentaries. But let people express their disagreement, > it is an open forum here. It does not hurt to hear different > opinions, on the contrary. I find that this makes me consider the > Dhamma more, so I wellcome them. > Nina. > Op 21-jun-2007, om 7:00 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > > > As I understand them, the teachings of Khun Sujin do not allow for > > what I believe to be true - that there are practices one can > > undertake to help the mind become more capable of seeing clearly. > I agree fully that the best way is to find out for oneself, through your own experience. I think that is what I do, so in this we are in complete agreement. With metta, Robert A. #73635 From: "Andrew" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue corvus121 Hi Robert Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Please don't take my posts too seriously. I appreciate your advice and won't comment on everything. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: It is my observation > that Western followers of the Buddha have a tendency to make things > a lot more complicated than they need to be. I have had many > conversations with people so busy tying themselves up in analytical > knots that in the end they cannot act on what is right before them. Did Westerners write the Abhidhamma? You obviously haven't met some of the "Easterners" I have. :-) I don't think the Westerner/Easterner distinction is of much use, personally. > May I suggest that, at least for a little while, you try taking the > teachings of the Buddha at face value. Just do what the Buddha > says, practice restraint, be generous, practice non-harming, and the > precepts, and patience. Do these things as a practice - take a vow > to practice right speech in a specific situation where you know you > tend to not. Do this and see for yourself if doing so changes your > experience of your world. I'm in my 40s and have been into Buddhism for 25 years, starting with Tibetan. I *have* done all these things for more than a little while, Robert. Many of them I still do. But my understanding of where and how they fit into the scheme of things has changed. > To answer your question: > > > So my first question is: Is it your experience that "mental > > development and virtue, generosity and restraint of senses, > patience > > and forgiveness" are, in the Buddha's words, "exceedingly > difficult > > to do"? > > Yes, they are difficult indeed, but it is well worth the effort. That's an interesting answer, Robert. For me, when I am walking in the city and a busker is playing and I drop some money into his guitar case, I seem to find it quite effortless. > I could be completely wrong in what I am doing, but I have made the > decision to see it through unless my experience of this practice > convinces me it is the wrong way to go. I cannot see the wrongness > of my practice from a book or posting. I have to be able to see it > in my experience of life. It would be quite invalid of me to say that what you are doing is wrong - and I don't say that. I wish you well. And at those times when you *are* using analytical thinking to gaze into the pool of Dhamma, I hope you can see past the surface reflections better than I can. From the heartwood simile, of course, we know that the profundity of the Dhamma is not a surface thing. I'm off now, Robert. Sorry to have butted in unannounced and uninvited. All the best with your endeavours. Andrew #73636 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello Andrew, Thank you again for your reply. There is just one thing you said I wanted to comment on. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" > wrote: > > It is my observation > > that Western followers of the Buddha have a tendency to make things > > a lot more complicated than they need to be. I have had many > > conversations with people so busy tying themselves up in analytical > > knots that in the end they cannot act on what is right before > them. > Andrew: > Did Westerners write the Abhidhamma? You obviously haven't met some > of the "Easterners" I have. :-) I don't think the > Westerner/Easterner distinction is of much use, personally. > You are quite right that generalizations can be tricky. But what I was referring to is the approach of ordinary Westerners who have become Buddhist in comparison to the people I meet when I visit a Thai or a Chinese temple. I really do think there is a distinctively different approach to the Buddhist teachings for those raised in them in Thailand or Taiwan, and those who are coming to them from our Western psychoanalytic culture. But maybe I am wrong in this and it is not important in any case, but maybe seeing someone else's practice can help you better see your own. I appreciate your comments. They are helpful and I hope you will feel free to jump in any time. Robert A. #73637 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:35 am Subject: Re: Virtue kenhowardau Hi Phil, ------- <. . .> Ph: > I guess you got me here, because I have mentioned a self-help book recently, and have said that wanting to become a better person is valid. ------- I must admit it is only the unreasonable - "You can be anything you want to be!" - expectations that make the self-help industry a dangerous sham. You seem to have much more modest expectations, and by ordinary standards they are, of course, no problem at all. But there is nothing 'ordinary; about DSG discussions, and we expect an infinitely higher standard. :-) -------------------- Ph: > The other day I read a sutta (SN 35:246, if I recall correctly - I'm at work now) in which the bhikkhu (ie us) is told to refrain from sensual pleasures, because it is a detestable way, a way for "inferior people - it is not for you." --------------------- And what did the Buddha mean by "you" "bhikkhu" and "inferior people?" Conditioned namas and rupas, of course! The five khandhas! If you are not prepared to take your Abhidhamma seriously, Phil, there really is no point in reading suttas. :-) ------------------------------- <. . .> Ph: > If one were to stop there it would be no more than self-help, and indeed self-help is doomed to run into a wall eventually. But it doesn't stop there if one understands the way the Buddha's gradual training runs its course. ------------------------------- It doesn't start there either. The gradual training starts with hearing the Dhamma, which is not about self-help about programs. It is about things "NEVER HEARD BEFORE." (Dhammacakkappavattana-sutta) My caps. :-) Ken H #73638 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:31 am Subject: Re: Q. Re: [dsg] re Vism.XVII,165 Vism.XVII,166 nilovg Dear Ramesh, thank you for your kind post. I am not a teacher, as I said before, I am a co-student. I can learn from you as I noticed already. Op 21-jun-2007, om 13:31 heeft Ramesh Patil het volgende geschreven: > Pls accept my bow(namaskar) as usually > give here in India to dhammateacher with a great respect......If > any time I > make mistake..or could not understand the things then at that time > don't be > compassionate or mild on me..u can scold me at that time so that I > came to > know the things. ----------- N: Scolding? No, this forum is for exchanging views and study, that is all. Who has time for scolding, I have to laugh. I can add a few remarks. It is admirable that you are so keen studying texts. The Visuddhimagga is not easy, and Larry, the leader of this project, is already posting for many years. Each time he posts a section, I come in after about three days with the Tiika, the Commentary, of which I only give a short summary. For me the Pali language is quite difficult, I have to study a lot on each section. ------- R: formations means khanda or samudaya or sankhara.. ------- N: here kamma formations, sankhaara. They are the second link of the Paticca samuppaada. -------- R: Objective field means the kamma as the centre point ------- N: Objective field, visaya (same as aaramma.na) is the object experienced by the last javanacittas before dying, and this object is conditioned by the kamma that will produce rebirth. ----------- R: sankhaara, the formations, arises and passes away with the javanacittas...rapidly..as per depending upon the feelings,mind thoughts,body paining,looses its energy and activity time to time as it is the dying consciousness..which will be stop after some time.. ____ N: The kamma (sankhaara) that will produce rebirth-consciousness, is not losing energy, it is powerful. We can say that the last javanacittas are only five in number, because they are weak at the end of life. They are conditioned by kamma. Depending on kamma they are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. --------- R: Nameti,Javanacittas,visayo..i have study these in detail.. as i don't know and not so much familier with these terms... -------- N: Yes, it takes time to get used to these terms. Nameti: the term nama is the same root: nama bends towards an object. It experiences an object. Javanacittas: in a process of cittas, such as the cittas that experience visible object, there are kusala cittas or akusala cittas which recat to the object with wholesomeness or unwholesomeness. These are called javanaicttas. -------- I am going away for a few days this Sunday, but you can also ask questions on the Visuddhimagga to Larry and others. Nina. #73639 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati sarahprocter... Dear Scott (& Mike), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Nyanatiloka: "Regarding the mundane lokiya 8-fold path, however, its > links may arise without the first link, right view." > > M: "What? Is this correct?" > > Scott: No, this can't be right, in my opinion. .... Sarah: Talking of reading Nyantiloka carefully, it's easy to become complacent when a source is nearly always excellent. In #72896, you also quoted him on the ayatanas. Mostly good, but here is the error: "The thinkable mental-object-source dhammaayatana is identical with 'mental-object-element' dhamma-dhaatu, dhaatu II-17 and dhammaarammana see: aarammana. It may be physical or mental, past, present or future, real or imaginary." ... S: Dhammayatana, dhamma-dhatu and dhammaarammana are NOT identical at all! (lots in U.P. under 'ayatana and dhatu'.) I've raised some of the errors with B.Bodhi before, but difficult to change a text when the author is deceased. Looking at that other post again, I agree with this comment you added too: >"Scott: Personally, I think he's going out on a limb to offer the opinion that 'mental vitality' is 'neural metabolic activity'. I'd offer my opinion that he is wrong about this and that 'neural metabolic activity' is too gross a concept and involves concepts as well. As I said, no body, no brain etc." Perhaps these very occasional 'slips' were just added to test us! Metta, Sarah ========== #73640 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:18 am Subject: Re: Vinaya. what was it all about?, part 3. nilovg Dear Howard and friends, this Sunday I will be away until Thursday (walking!), so I have to round off a few posts. Howard, I will ponder more on characteristics and paramattha dhammas, concepts etc. after your post on satipatthana. I feel it is important to discuss more direct awareness of realities. Now I try to finish with our subject the Vinaya. As I said, we have to note the unity of the Tipitaka in the diversity. There are also sutta and Abhidhamma in the Vinaya: the monk has to realize in detail the cittas that arise. There is Abhidhamma and Vinaya in the suttanta. I also pointed out that the Commentator thought highly of the Vinaya, of the very refined siila that is taught here. Of the fact that the monk's lifestyle is that of the arahat. As to the text that was the cause of your concern, let us look at it again. Here the purpose is to help people understand that there are three levels of defilements: the coarse defilements that are transgressions through body and speech, the defilements that are medium level: akusala cittas. The subtle defilements that are the latent tendencies, anusayas, not arising with the akusala citta, but lying dormant in each citta so long as they are not eradicated. The Commentator wanted to illustrate these three levels by means of the three parts of the Tipitaka, but we should not read this in the wrong way. It is not a rigid classification. He only wanted to give examples. Perhaps in the light of my foregoing posts this may become clearer. We often read in the Vinaya that the Buddha said: how could you, monk, behave in that way and then laid down a rule, which is under the monk's siila, concerning action and speech. But, as said before, these are also very refined siila. Siila together with satipatthana, leading to arahatship. Thus, I think it is right to point out the removal of coarse defilements by siila, and use the Vinaya as an example, just as an example. Not excluding all the other aspects. The suttanta is used as an example of removal of akusala cittas by the development of all kinds of kusala, this is very, very wide. The eightfold Path is included. The Abhidhamma deals with the latent tendencies in detail, with all cittas and cetasikas in detail. It helps us to have a refined understanding of all degrees of defilements. So often we may take for kusala what is lobha. The Abhidhamma is used as an example of removal of the latent tendencies. When latent tendencies are eradicated there is the end of the cycle. Thus these texts are ilustrations of the levels of defilements. Illustrations, nothing less and nothing more. As you said: This is never denied by the Commentator. As you say: the Dhamma, in its entirety, is found throughout> True, we have to see the unity in the diversity. You write: Sacrosankt is not the right expression. Buddhaghosa used the oldest texts which were recited from the first Council on according to tradition. I do not think that I know better than these oldest texts. Nina. ----------- Howard wrote: The main point is the commentary's assertion that Vinaya Pitaka deals with sila and removal of coarse defilements, Sutta Pitaka with "suppressing" defilements by concentration, and only "medium" defilements at that, and Abhidhamma Piataka with wisdom and removal of subtle defilements. Finally, it speaks of Vinaya as dealing only with temporary elimination of defilements, Suttanta as dealing only with supression of defilements, and solely Abhidhamma as involved with "completely cutting off" defilements. This is absurd and false. The Dhamma, in its entirety, is found throughout, and the second-class status accorded by the commentary to Vinaya and Suttanta is an insult to the Buddha, IMO. There is no reason to treat all commentarial material as sacrosanct. #73641 From: "Leo" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:03 am Subject: Buddha image on fabric - curtain leoaive Hi I found from my research, that it is ok to have Buddha image on Curtains. I hope it is helpfull. With Metta Leo #73642 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner--Hummingbird Perversions sarahprocter... Hi Mike, Scott (& Phil), --- m_nease wrote: >.... I wanted to share my morning's preoccupation > with you. A new generation of hummingbirds has hatched here and I'm > having to fill the feeders twice a day. My feelings for these little > ones is downright, well--treacly. Any idea how wholesome/unwholesome > this all is? > > I decided to analyze these feelings with the limited equipment at my > disposal and found--not entirely to my surprise--that consistently > there were (approx.) 1.2-1.5 ppg (parts per gazillian) of mettaa in > any one hummingbird observance. .... S: :-)) And if you had never heard the Dhamma, you'd probably have thought it was all/mostly so good and pure, no doubt! No wonder people say that it seems like there is more and more akusala in a day! Scott, an 'oops' here -- just after responding to your post with the 'anulomika.m khanti.m' quote from the Sammohavinodanii, I saw you included it yourself in #73349. I'd put some posts aside to read more carefully later and hadn't noticed that one. All roads lead to understanding... Mike, with regard to the sutta on the benefits of listening to the Dhamma and your comments about 'conceptual', I assume you were referring to the listening part, rather than the 'rewards' in that context? Metta, Sarah ======= #73643 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner--p.s. sarahprocter... Dear Scott & Mike, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > In a footnote: "Annulomiya.m khantiya.m .thito. 'Acquiescence in > conformity' indicates the stage in the development of insight where > the meditator can accept the basic truths of his contemplation without > yet having fully apprehended them by mature wisdom. Khanti here > signifies the acceptance of difficult to understand doctrines rather > than patience in the ordinary sense..." > <...> > The footnote: "Dhammanijjhaanakkhanti. <....> .... S: We had some discussion on these terms before. Like Mike, I like to consider BB's notes carefully. This is from #42952 >Nina: B.B. footnote to co to Perfections, khanti (The All-Embracing Net of Views, p. 258);: dhammanijjhaanakkhanti: <...used to signify the intellectual acceptance of doctrines which are not yet completely clear to the understanding...It is a suspension of disbelief born of trust...> It is a kind of patience. You have confidence in the Dhamma, but, say, you do not understand all that is said about rupas, such as life faculty or nutrition. Still, you do not reject what you do not quite understand. on p. 283, anulomiyam khantiyam .thito: acquiescence in conformity. This is in the development of insight. …. >Sarah: When I raised it with K.Sujin once, she also stressed that this ‘refelctive acceptance’ was seeing the usefulness of khanti (patience) and developing as much kusala as possible. She stressed it was ‘not just following without any understanding’ as I think BB’s phrase ‘suspension of disbelief born of trust’ could suggest, perhaps. I was also thinking of Howard and how she always stresses that everyone has to develop their own understanding (and of course, in their own way), not just following or reciting blindly. There is more on this expression ‘dhammanijjhaanakkhanti’ in Dispeller 2074 under ‘Classification of Knowledge’. “Anulomika.m khanti.m (‘conformable acceptance’) and so on are all synonyms for understanding……………..it conforms to the Truth of the Path and it conforms owing to conforming to the highest meaning, nibbaana. And it accepts (khamati), bears, is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance (khanti). ‘It sees’ is di.t.thi (‘view’)……….and in particular, the things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied (nijjjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with impermanence, suffering and no self, accept (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); thus it is hammanijjhaanakkhanti (‘acceptance of study things’).”< .... Not sure if this helps.... Metta, Sarah ======= #73644 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? (was: Our dialogues in Paris, 3.) sarahprocter... Dear Ramesh (& Nidhi), Like Nina, I was delighted to read your detail response and understanding of the comments I had selected. All your responses showed your really 'got' the points. Thank you for the trouble and care you took. Just your last comments here: --- Ramesh Patil wrote: > R:-> Yes-"why one has to be serious.....It's too much 'over', not > moderation!" Exactly the right things...This give me the real touch... > > Yaa Dear Sarah...very very nice discussion u had sent. From every > point..I > get too much knowledge..and find that how much wrong things generally > have...It is really exceptional..May all DSG members find this > discussion > very usefull..but I got so much from it...It is a very nice > explanation..generally every dhamma follower get trapped with such > negative > things..It is very good to show such serious people such discussion..so > that > he/she come to know where he/she is doing his/her mistakes...Great! ... S: Thank you again! Please try and listen to one or more of the discussions on audio with A.Sujin on www.dhammastudygroup.org. As you and Nidhi know, Nina, Jon, I and a few hundred others (!!) will be travelling with A.Sujin to India in mid-October. If either or both of you have the chance to meet us in Delhi or somewhere en route, pls let us know (off-list) perhaps. We have a busy itinerary, but if you were able to get to Delhi, I know A.Sujin would make time to have discussion with you. Agra would also be a possibility, I think. Metta, Sarah ======== #73645 From: connie Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:07 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (60) nichiconn dear friends, 7. Sattakanipaato 3. Upacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 5 On verse: 191. "Jaatassa mara.na.m hoti, hatthapaadaana chedana.m; vadhabandhapariklesa.m, jaato dukkha.m nigacchati. 191. For anyone who is born there is death, the cutting off of hands and feet, slaughter, bonds, and calamity. Anyone who is born suffers pain. txt: Tattha jaatassa mara.na.m hotiiti yasmaa jaatassa sattassa mara.na.m hoti, na ajaatassa. Na kevala.m mara.nameva, atha kho jaraarogaadayo yattakaanatthaa, sabbepi te jaatassa honti jaatihetukaa. Tenaaha bhagavaa- "jaatipaccayaa jaraamara.na.m sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupaayaasaa sambhavantii"ti (mahaava. 1; vibha. 225; udaa. 1). Tenevaaha- "hatthapaadaana chedanan"ti hatthapaadaana.m chedana.m jaatasseva hoti, na ajaatassa. Hatthapaadachedanaapadesena cettha baatti.msa kammakaara.naapi dassitaa evaati da.t.thabba.m. Tenevaaha- "vadhabandhapariklesa.m, jaato dukkha.m nigacchatii"ti. Jiivitaviyojanamu.t.thippahaaraadisa"nkhaata.m vadhapariklesa~nceva andubandhanaadisa"nkhaata.m bandhapariklesa.m a~n~na~nca ya.mki~nci dukkha.m naama ta.m sabba.m jaato eva nigacchati, na ajaato, tasmaa jaati.m na rocemiiti. Pruitt: 191. There, for anyone who is born there is death means: because for anyone who is born, for any being, there is death, not for one who is not born. Not only is there death, but for whoever is born there is also suffering ageing and disease and all the misfortunes connected with birth. Therefore it was said by the Blessed One, "With birth as condition there is the producing of ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair."* Therefore she says: the cutting off (chedhana.m) of hands and feet (hattha-paadaana), which means: there is the cutting off of hands and feet (hattha-paadaana.m) of one who is born, not for one who is not born. Thus she said: slaughter, bonds, and calamity. Anyone who is born suffers pain, [which means:] anyone who is born - not someone who is not born - suffers whatever pain there is, such as the punishment of being struck, which is a synonym for life-threatening blows with fists, and the punishment of bonds, which is a synonym for being bound with fetters; therefore, I do not approve of birth. *See S II 1f. This is the last item in the list for dependent origination (pa.ticca-samuppaada). ===tbc, connie #73646 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vinaya. what was it all about?, part 3. rameshat27 Hi Nina,Howards,and all, As I don't know abt translation and commentary but giving my views on vinaya..If any kind of wrong views r there then clear it.. * ********************************************************************************\ ********************************************* * S:-"three levels of defilements: the coarse defilements that are transgressions through body and speech, the defilements that are medium level: akusala cittas. The subtle defilements that are the latent tendencies, anusayas, not arising with the akusala citta, but lying dormant in each citta so long as they are not eradicated.The Commentator wanted to illustrate these three levels by means of the three parts of the Tipitaka, but we should not read this in the wrong way. It is not a rigid classification. He only wanted to give examples. Perhaps in the light of my foregoing posts this may become clearer. We often read in the Vinaya that the Buddha said: how could you, monk, behave in that way and then laid down a rule, which is under the monk's siila, concerning action and speech. But, as said before, these are also very refined siila. Siila together with satipatthana, leading to arahatship." R:- I don't know abt the three kinds of defilements in commentrary..But according to Vinaya the main object purpose of monks is do develop kusala kamma..and eradicate akusala kamma..So the progress is start here by silla which is the code or called as rules for monks to follow..They have to keep shilla as they r the default code of conduct on very strict and heigher priority in Sangha..During ancient time Bhuddha assign the rules to keep shila which is sufficient to develope the morality...But I want to mention one more thing here is that mostly these rules are bound with merits..means if u follow these...ur merits get increased and ur destination after death u will be born in good planes of existence and if u break rule they have very severe impact as it taken into demerits..and may born after death into bad and lower realms like animal or hell... The person do good and bad kamma by three ways..first by through speech..second by through body and third by mentally ..so these rules keep away person from doing such kind of things.. About the latent tendencies, anusayas..these can be eradicated by Abhidhamma and Satipatthana...only About refined siila I don't know..but shila r the rules only..and it is very true that Siila together with satipatthana, leading to arahatship..perfectly right.. * ********************************************************************************\ ********************************************* * N:-"Thus, I think it is right to point out the removal of coarse defilements by siila, and use the Vinaya as an example, just as an example. Not excluding all the other aspects." R:-Yes very true as following the kusala..all the mental defilements of the coarse level are reduced..I agree with this.. * ********************************************************************************\ ********************************************* * S:-"The suttanta is used as an example of removal of akusala cittas by the development of all kinds of kusala, this is very, very wide. The eightfold Path is included.The Abhidhamma deals with the latent tendencies in detail, with all cittas and cetasikas in detail. It helps us to have a refined understanding of all degrees of defilements. So often we may take for kusala what is lobha. The Abhidhamma is used as an example of removal of the latent tendencies. When latent tendencies are eradicated there is the end of the cycle." R:-Yes suttanta is very wide..get lots of guidance from it to develop kusala cittas. In Eightfold Path, kusala which r developed they r not get week, we have to made them stronger and stronger..and any kind of akusala which r developed, we have to reduced those..by using the Sati and Panna..Because of Sati we come to know about kusala and akusala present in us..and Panna is the tool which removes akusala cittas by not responding them by vippassana..only to see them as an object which arises and passes away..as sensation... * ********************************************************************************\ ********************************************* * S:-"You write: R:-But I want to mention here only that Bhuddha told to Lohichha comminuty in Lohichha sutta that whatever u told don't accept it bliendly..and don't discard it also immediately..u take that into ur own process first..try to investigate on ur own level..If u find this is right one and giving the benefits then accept it only otherwise discard it..but use ur investigation and ur research on practical level,whether it is worth or not before discarding anything metta ********* ramesh *=======* On 6/22/07, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Howard and friends, > this Sunday I will be away until Thursday (walking!), so I have to > round off a few posts. > > Howard, I will ponder more on characteristics and paramattha dhammas, > concepts etc. after your post on satipatthana. I feel it is important > to discuss more direct awareness of realities. > > Now I try to finish with our subject the Vinaya. > As I said, we have to note the unity of the Tipitaka in the > diversity. There are also sutta and Abhidhamma in the Vinaya: the > monk has to realize in detail the cittas that arise. There is > Abhidhamma and Vinaya in the suttanta. > I also pointed out that the Commentator thought highly of the Vinaya, > of the very refined siila that is taught here. Of the fact that the > monk's lifestyle is that of the arahat. <....> #73647 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner--p.s. nilovg Dear Sarah, very good. . One sees that the truth cannot be realized in one day. . The five khandhas, nama and rupa, have to be studied over and over again with mindfulness. If nama is not known as nama and rupa as rupa first, how could the three characteristics be seen as they are? This text reminds of patinece and perseverance in the 'study' of realities. Nina. Op 22-jun-2007, om 13:55 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Dispeller > 2074 under ‘Classification of Knowledge’. > > “Anulomika.m khanti.m (‘conformable acceptance’) and so on are all > synonyms for understanding……………..it conforms to the Truth of the > Path and > it conforms owing to conforming to the highest meaning, nibbaana. > And it > accepts (khamati), bears, is able to see all these reasons, thus it is > acceptance (khanti). ‘It sees’ is di.t.thi (‘view’)……….and in > particular, > the things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied > (nijjjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with impermanence, > suffering and no self, accept (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); > thus it > is dhammanijjhaanakkhanti (‘acceptance of study things’).”< > .... #73648 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vinaya. what was it all about?, part 3. nilovg Dear Ramesh, I appreciate your post with your personal views. I have always found the ancient commentaries most helpful, helpful to understand suttas. On almost every page vipassana pa~n~naa is mentioned. Sometimes I meet a difficult text I do not understand so well. A monk once told me: than the fault is with you, not with the Commentator. Get up early and investigate more. It is good to know that we ourselves are at fault, before saying that the Commentator ir wrong. Nina. Op 22-jun-2007, om 15:16 heeft Ramesh Patil het volgende geschreven: > But I want to mention here only that Bhuddha told to Lohichha > comminuty > in Lohichha sutta that whatever u told don't accept it > bliendly..and don't > discard it also immediately..u take that into ur own process > first..try to > investigate on ur own level..If u find this is right one and giving > the > benefits then accept it only otherwise discard it..but use ur > investigation > and ur research on practical level,whether it is worth or not before > discarding anything #73649 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati jonoabb Hi Nidhi wisdomcompassion wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for clarifying what we mean by dhamma, So we agree that > awareness has to be awareness of dhamma (as described by you),and it > happens at the moment (the smallest possible unit of time for us to be > aware of). > I'm not sure about the idea of a moment as the smallest possible unit of time for us to be aware. I would rather say, "awareness has to be awareness of a presently arising dhamma". As I understand it, all the dhammas involved, that is to say, both the awareness and its object, are momentary phenomena. > But in most of the communication that I see here is about > citta 'arising and falling away' .But we can actually percieve a > single unit of citta with reference to one moment, not with reference > to the trillionth part of moment in which citta actually arises and > falls away. > I think you'll find that people here who make reference to dhammas arising and falling away in an instant do so on the basis of their reading of the Tipitaka, and are not claiming personal direct experience of the momentary nature of dhammas. > since in abhidhamma citta has been given particular > meaning it should be referred with that meaning. though in sutta citta > referes to simply mind or consciousness only. It sounds just like as > if instead of using the word rupa one starts using the word kalapa. It > looks impossible to observe kalapa for us. > According to the Abhidhamma and the commentaries to the suttas, it is not just cittas that are momentary and fleeting, but all dhammas, including rupas. However, I do not see this as a difference between the Suttas and the Abhidhamma. For the purpose of the suttas, too, dhammas are momentary and fleeting. This may not be readily apparent from a general reading of the suttas. It is, however, well-established Theravada doctrine. You say that kalapas are impossible for us to observe. There is much in the suttas and the Abhidhamma that is impossible for us to observe (and therefore to verify directly). But that does not mean that these matters are of no interest to us. On the contrary, they give us something to think about in relation to those matters that we can observe for ourselves. Also, not all the things in the Tipitaka are things that need to to be verified directly by a person developing the path. To my understanding, however, the teaching on the dhammas appearing at the present moment is of immediate relevance to us and the development of the path. Thanks for the discussion to date. Jon #73650 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:00 am Subject: Condiitons, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Each of the four nåmakkhandhas can be taken in turn as conditioning dhamma or as conditioned dhamma because they are mutually related by way of conascence. The “Patthåna” (Faultless Triplet, Ch VII, Investigation Chapter. Conditions: positive, 1, classification chapter, Conascence 9, § 419) expresses this as follows: Faultless state (kusala dhamma) is related to faultless state by conascence-condition. One faultless khandha is related to three (faultless) khandhas by conascence-condition; three khandhas are related to one khandha by conascence-condition; two khandhas are related to two khandhas by conascence-condition. This pertains only to the four nåmakkhandhas. The same is said with regard to the four nåmakkhandhas which are akusala (faulty). When lobha-múla-citta, citta rooted in attachment, arises, the four nåmakkhandhas are akusala and they condition one another by way of conascence. Lobha-múla-citta has as roots moha and lobha, and these roots condition the accompanying dhammas by way of conascence- condition and also by way of root-condition. Phenomena can condition other phenomena by way of several relations. Lobha-múla-citta may be accompanied by pleasant feeling. Feeling is conditioned by citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and when it accompanies akusala citta it is also akusala. Pleasant feeling which is akusala has a characteristic which is quite different from pleasant feeling which is kusala. It is beneficial to learn more about conascence-condition because this condition pertains to our life now. Since citta and cetasikas condition one another mutually while they arise together, there is such a great variety of cittas. When one, for example, develops understanding of nåma and rúpa, there is kusala citta accompanied by paññå and by other sobhana cetasikas. That citta is also accompanied by sati which is mindful of the reality which appears, by “applied thinking”, vitakka [1], which “touches” the object so that paññå can understand it, by non-attachment, alobha, and by other cetasikas which each perform their own function. They all mutually support one another while they arise together. There are many degrees of paññå and as paññå grows the accompanying cetasikas develop as well. Alobha, for example, is still weak in the beginning, but as paññå develops there will also be more detachment from realities. ------------ 1. Vitakka cetasika arises with many cittas, but not with every citta. When it accompanies akusala citta it is wrong thinking and when it accompanies kusala citta it is right thinking. As a factor of the eightfold Path it is called “right thinking”. ********** Nina #73651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:13 am Subject: Listening to the Dhamma, Ch 4, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 4 The Stages of Insight Vipassanå or insight is paññå which sees the characteristics of realities as they are. Vipassanå ñåùa is paññå which has become accomplished in the development of the understanding of realities. There are several stages of vipassanå ñåna [1], beginning with clearly distinguishing the difference between the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, and continuing on with higher stages until the attainment of enlightenment. We should know what the realities are which paññå should penetrate. They are not different from visible object, sound and the other objects as they appear at this moment through the six doors. They have been classified as the four “Applications of Mindfulness”: Mindfulness of the body, including rúpas, of feelings, of cittas and of dhammas which includes all objects not classified under the first three Applications of Mindfulness. There is no rule of which object sati is aware, it depends on conditions. Sati is not self, nobody can direct sati. At one moment sati may be aware of rúpa, at another moment of feeling, of citta or of dhamma. Paññå which arises together with sammå-sati, right mindfulness, gradually begins to notice and to investigate the characteristics of nåma and rúpa which appear. Paññå has to consider these very often, over and over again, until it clearly distinguishes between the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, and that is the first stage of vipassanå ñåna, which is only a beginning stage. When we were in the Dong Devi Temple we discussed the stages of insight in general. The Abbot warned us not to wait for the arising of the stages of insight. That is attachment, lobha, and if we do not realize this paññå cannot develop. We should not be impatient because the development of paññå takes a long time, even many lives. When we consider the amount of ignorance we have accumulated during countless lives we understand that paññå cannot develop rapidly. We have to scrutinize ourselves in order to find out whether there is an idea of self who develops understanding. Acharn Sujin said that even when we think that we do not have expectations there may still be an idea of “self who does not expect anything”. We were very grateful for all the reminders concerning impatience or clinging to the self, because these are helpful for the continuation of the development of understanding. When we listen and consider the Dhamma, when we read and study, there are conditions for awareness, but we cannot predict when it will arise. When we think in the right way of nåma and rúpa, there is sati of the level of thinking, and when there is direct awareness of one reality at a time right understanding of the eightfold Path can begin to develop. ---------- 1. ñåna is another term for understanding, knowledge. ******* Nina. #73652 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vinaya. what was it all about?, part 3. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/22/07 6:19:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear Howard and friends, > this Sunday I will be away until Thursday (walking!), so I have to > round off a few posts. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Wonderful! Have a great time. BTW, walking is excellent, physically and mentally. :-) While you are at it, if you are so inclined, you might, during some of your time, experiment with attending to deportment - calmly observing in detail the various sensations (and the subtle volition) involved in walking, turning, bending, sitting, rising, standing, lying, and so on. It would do no harm and actually can be interesting. (Do watch where you walk, though! ;-) ------------------------------------------ > > Howard, I will ponder more on characteristics and paramattha dhammas, > concepts etc. after your post on satipatthana. I feel it is important > to discuss more direct awareness of realities. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Good. :-) It's useful to ponder. Also very useful to observe. ------------------------------------------ > > Now I try to finish with our subject the Vinaya. > As I said, we have to note the unity of the Tipitaka in the > diversity. There are also sutta and Abhidhamma in the Vinaya: the > monk has to realize in detail the cittas that arise. There is > Abhidhamma and Vinaya in the suttanta. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, there is Dhamma throughout, and some of the the characteristic approach taken in one basket is also found in the others. ----------------------------------------- > I also pointed out that the Commentator thought highly of the Vinaya, > of the very refined siila that is taught here. Of the fact that the > monk's lifestyle is that of the arahat. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I reiterate, Nina: I addressed and took great exception only to the original quoted material. This has not changed. ----------------------------------------- > > As to the text that was the cause of your concern, let us look at it > again. Here the purpose is to help people understand that there are > three levels of defilements: the coarse defilements that are > transgressions through body and speech, the defilements that are > medium level: akusala cittas. > -------------------------------------- Howard: We don't know the purpose, but what was said with regardtothe three baskets is false - false and objectionable. That there are levels of defilement is not disputed by me. The characterization of the three baskets was absurd, and that is what I object to. The point you raise about levelsof defilement isn't the issue at all. --------------------------------------- The subtle defilements that are the > > latent tendencies, anusayas, not arising with the akusala citta, but > lying dormant in each citta so long as they are not eradicated. > The Commentator wanted to illustrate these three levels by means of > the three parts of the Tipitaka, but we should not read this in the > wrong way. It is not a rigid classification. He only wanted to give > examples. Perhaps in the light of my foregoing posts this may become > clearer. ------------------------------------ Howard: No, Nina. The material was clear, and clearly false. It was so wildly wrong with respect to the suttas in particular as to be laughable, were it not so distasteful. ------------------------------------- > We often read in the Vinaya that the Buddha said: how could you, > monk, behave in that way and then laid down a rule, which is under > the monk's siila, concerning action and speech. But, as said before, > these are also very refined siila. Siila together with satipatthana, > leading to arahatship. > Thus, I think it is right to point out the removal of coarse > defilements by siila, and use the Vinaya as an example, just as an > example. Not excluding all the other aspects. -------------------------------------------- Howard: That is not the sense of the piece at all, Nina. It isn't just an example. The three baskets are distinguished in terms of what they teach. And what I found most objectionable was the gross restriction with regard to the Sutta Pitaka, the teaching that the Buddha gave over 45 years of selfless devotion to devas and humans, and that included the entirety of the Dhamma - the means and detail for removing all defilements at all levels. This is not,as Ken said, a tirade nor an attack on the commentaries. It is simply a matter of not remaining silent when very specific material calls out for strong criticism. The point is not to attack, but to defend, and my silence of this would not be a moral action on my part. -------------------------------------------- > The suttanta is used as an example of removal of akusala cittas by > the development of all kinds of kusala, this is very, very wide. The > eightfold Path is included. ------------------------------------------ Howard: No, this is not a matter of examples. This is a matter of falsely characterizing and restricting. It's statements are false. Look at the following, for example: "In the Vinaya he taught the abandoning of the coarse defilements, because morality is opposed to coarse defilements. He taught the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to medium defilements. He taught the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements." Clear enough. Not just "examples"! Instead, invidious and incorrect comparison. ------------------------------------------------------ > The Abhidhamma deals with the latent tendencies in detail, with all > cittas and cetasikas in detail. It helps us to have a refined > understanding of all degrees of defilements. So often we may take for > kusala what is lobha. The Abhidhamma is used as an example of removal > of the latent tendencies. When latent tendencies are eradicated there > is the end of the cycle. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Abhidhamma does all that. So does the Sutta Pitaka, in a broad variety of ways, and lacking nothing. In fact, there is much there, such as the content of the Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas, that is found only there. The entire Dhamma is there, and all defilements, including latent tendencies, are uprootable on the basis of the suttic teachings. -------------------------------------------------- > Thus these texts are ilustrations of the levels of defilements. > Illustrations, nothing less and nothing more. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is much more - all wrong. -------------------------------------------------- > As you said: the second-class status accorded by the commentary to Vinaya and > Suttanta is an insult to the Buddha> > This is never denied by the Commentator. As you say: the Dhamma, in > its entirety, is found throughout> True, we have to see the unity in > the diversity. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The quoted material does just the opposite. -------------------------------------------------- > You write: sacrosanct> > > Sacrosankt is not the right expression. Buddhaghosa used the oldest > texts which were recited from the first Council on according to > tradition. I do not think that I know better than these oldest texts. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Then, I see little point in discussing this further, Nina. We had best move on to other matters. --------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > ----------- > Howard wrote: > The main point is the > commentary's assertion that Vinaya Pitaka deals with sila and removal > of coarse > defilements, Sutta Pitaka with "suppressing" defilements by > concentration, > and only "medium" defilements at that, and Abhidhamma Piataka with > wisdom and > removal of subtle defilements. Finally, it speaks of Vinaya as > dealing only with > temporary elimination of defilements, Suttanta as dealing only with > supression of defilements, and solely Abhidhamma as involved with > "completely cutting > off" defilements. This is absurd and false. The Dhamma, in its > entirety, is > found throughout, and the second-class status accorded by the > commentary to > Vinaya and Suttanta is an insult to the Buddha, IMO. There is no > reason to treat > all commentarial material as sacrosanct. > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #73653 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:51 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 165, 166 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 165, 166. Intro: in the following sections the Vis. explains that the rebirth- consciousness has not come here from the past, but that its cause, kamma, is in the past. It does not go anywhere, it falls away as soon as it has arisen. The rebirth-consciousness succeeds the dying-consciousness of the previous life, thus there is continuity. However, as will be explained by way of similes, there is no identity nor otherness. -------- Text Vis.165: An echo, or its like, supplies The figures here; connectedness By continuity denies Identity and otherness. Text Vis.166: And here let the illustration of this consciousness be such things as an echo, a light, a seal impression, a looking-glass image, for the fact of its not coming here from the previous becoming and for the fact that it arises owing to causes that are included in past becomings. For just as an echo, a light, a seal impression, and a shadow have respectively sound, etc., as their cause and come into being without going elsewhere, so also this consciousness. ---------- N: The Tiika refers to the expression, ‘And here’ (let the illustration of this consciousness be such things as an echo) stating that sound is the cause of the echo. Sound is the condition, paccaya, for the echo which is the conditioned dhamma, paccayuppanna dhamma. The echo has not come here from the past, but its arising is due to a condition of the past (atiitahetusamuppaada). The Tiika states that the sound is the cause of the echo and the echo arises without going elsewhere. It does not last. The seal is the cause of the seal impression. As to the shadow, the Tiika explains that when there is a reflection into a mirror, the face is the cause of the reflection. The Tiika states that all things that arise because of conditions where absent before and after their arising they do not go elsewhere. It is the same with rebirth-consciousness. It was absent before and after it has arisen because of conditions it does not go elsewhere. The Tiika explains, just as the echo was absent before and does not arise without a condition, namely the sound, evenso it is with rebirth-consciousness. ***** Conclusion: There is no being who travels from the past life to the present life. Rebirth-consciousness is one moment of citta that is produced by past kamma. It succeeds the dying-consciousness very rapidly, and then it falls away immediately. It does not come from anywhere and it does not go anywhere. What happens at the moment of dying and rebirth is not different from this moment: one citta arises because of conditions, then it falls away and is immediately succeeded by the next citta. ******* Nina. #73654 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? (was: Our di... sukinderpal Hi Howard (and Phil*), This is going to be a characteristically long post and I suspect that you may find some of what is in it, disagreeable. Nothing new in what either of us are saying, so please feel free to not respond if you don't want to. ======================== > Sukin: What would wisdom "know"? That the dhamma was conditioned to arise > and already fallen away or would it be concerned about the past and the > future? Wisdom like any other dhamma accumulates as sankhara and when > conditions are in place, would arise again. Do you think this concern about > 'one's kilesas' is reflection of panna or that it could condition panna to > arise? Remember the "Single Excellent Night Sutta". ------------------------------------- Howard: Was the Buddha lacking in wisdom when he taught the following which involves concern for the future? Suk: Of course not. In fact we would do well to keep in mind that indeed his panna was the greatest and thus the Truth that he was enlightened to is extremely profound, so much so that he was even hesitant for a moment, to teach. All the more reason isn't it, that we do not so quickly come to a conclusion regarding the meaning of any Sutta, but carefully study and/or take the help of the commentaries? True there were many people during the Buddha's time who could understand readily what he had to say, and this is why he did then decide to teach. Many of us have however heard over and over again the same suttas, and also some of what is in the other two Pitakas, but none of us are close to experiencing even the first vipassana nana. What does this say about our capacity to understand the Suttas? So when it impresses upon us that a particular Sutta is `straight forward, `clear cut' etc. is it not possible that we are influenced by desire to have it fit our particular understanding which may in fact be wrong? And should we not be reminded that the Dhamma is in fact so deep? Let us take the example of words like citta, rupa or dhamma. How much do we understand these if at all? (You won't of course say that the Suttas are talking about anything different would you?) I think that you will agree that ours is an attempt at intellectually grasping the concepts, and clumsily at that? This is so not only because of lack of direct experience / vipassana, but also the development at the intellectual level is still so weak. And this is why we need to keep listening, discussing and considering. There is also past conditioning by way of education in science, psychology and also other religious beliefs. In other words we keep on interpreting the Dhamma in terms of what we know, *all* of which were rooted in avijja and tanha. But this is natural, and we can learn to recognize where we are coming from each time we hold the Dhamma ideas in our mind. The real danger however is not any struggle with concepts, but rather those that are conditioned by Wrong View. This latter gives the impression of "knowing" / "being right". We should therefore feel fortunate that we are able to discuss Dhamma with people who are knowledgeable and who have considered much. The chances are increased that we will better recognize any wrong view which continues to influence our outlook. If this is the case with such basic dhammas, what about `practice', should we not be even more careful about what might be involved here? And if for example we still think of Rupa in terms of what we understand `matter' in science, would we not be lead to view `sense objects' wrongly when engaged in what we consider to be `direct experience'? =========================== Howard: "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."â€" SN 45.8 Suk: This is one of the more popular topics on DSG. I realize that nothing conclusive came out in the past, but who knows about conditions? ;-) So I give a link here to two past discussion: *There is : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/67953 and this one is between Jon and you! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/70386 The suggestion that these are descriptions of four "functions" of the Right Effort makes good sense to me. That they are some `intentional actions to be taken", does not. As I said in the beginning about how we formulate dhamma ideas in terms of what we know, I think here the Buddha's description of the Four Right Efforts is likewise a description of what in fact is a dhamma and its function, in terms of what his audience could clearly understand. But of course, it goes far deeper than we could possibly comprehend even with help from the commentaries…… ============================ > What do you mean by "strives to prevent this from happening to the best she > or he is capable"? This is clearly "self view" and you seem to want to > encourage it. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Please see the foregoing. Is "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen." not a report on striving? Suk: Yes, without help from the commentaries, it is so easy to read it this way. ==================== Howard: Also, is it a report of someone acting under influence of self view or encouraging it? Perhaps it is, for if evil still arises, self view or at least sense of self still arises. Suk: Of course not, on the contrary, it is associated with a very high level of understanding. But then this is because it is *not* a report of someone involved in some conventional action. ;-) ========================= Howard: In any case, should these words of the Buddha be ignored? Was he in error? Is such striving a mistake on the Buddha's part? Suk: Ignored? Never!! But we do need to watch out for our own wrong understanding. ================== Howard: Also, what does this right effort say with respect to the no-control notion? This involves a person ("He") generating desire, endeavoring, activating, persisting, upholding & exerting intent. (Exerting intent!!) Suk: In fact it says that these Four Right Efforts arise and perform particular functions all by virtue of specific conditions. ;-) =================== Howard: It is a matter of energetic exercise of *volition* to achieve a goal. Suk: How does this understanding of yours tally with what you may have with regard to other aspects of Dhamma, for example D.O., conditionality and the teaching on kamma / vipaka? I particularly want to draw your attention to this last. Whenever some of us insisted that "intention" played no important role in the development of the Path, you would refer to "kamma" almost like a trump card. But it seems to me that you misapply this here. Kamma accumulates and when conditions are right, vipaka as result arises. This comes as rebirth etc and seeing, hearing etc. So what is `intention' to guard the senses or to be mindful supposed to result in, the `guarding' and `being mindful'? Does this sound right to you? I think that you are thinking about cause and effect from a conventional and worldling's perspective. It is not how conditions work in reality. For example we know that the `determining consciousness' which precedes javana cittas of the sense door process, this is conditioned by accumulations by way of pakatupannisaya paccaya. So what do you say about this? ======================= Howard: This is a matter of exercising control. The control is fourfold: 1) Preventing the arising of akusala qualities, 2) Causing the cessation of current akusala qualities, 3) Promoting future kusala qualities, and 4) Furthering current kusala qualities. Suk: Control? No. A particular mental factor performing specific functions? Yes. ======================= > I don't think that your particular concern is anywhere close to those who > develop samatha either. So what is it? You will say it is developing "sila", > but it does not appear to be that even…… -------------------------------------- Howard: It's not clear to me what you are asserting here, Sukin. Suk: *Phil admits to not being interested in right view beyond kamma / vipaka, nor is he interested in satipatthana at this stage. Though he does talk about "guarding the sense", which in fact is reference to satipatthana. But like you, he believes that this is about "noting" concepts and willfully turning the attention away to some other object. To me this is neither samatha nor vipassana. Samatha development is object specific and Sila, if this is not guarding the sense doors, involves abstaining from akusala kammapattha. This latter however happens only during moments when the opportunity of breaking the precepts arises. When Phil talks about what he does, it sounds not unlike people who sit in the privacy of their rooms trying to radiate metta. I see no sense in projecting a possible situation, reacting to it and then thinking that one has been able to avoid breaking the precepts. The akusala kammapattha must be imminent, only then the abstaining can be called such, I believe. But I may be wrong, since I have to admit being quite unclear about this topic of Sila. And Phil, if I have misrepresented you, please correct me. ======================= > I felt a burden lifted off my chest, no more had I to go around creating a > situation in order to "apply" any Buddhist ideas. And some time later, when > I mentioned something about J Krishnamurti, a comment by Sarah made me > realize further, the fact of all 'ideas Dhamma' necessarily coming down to > just this present moment. What we study is not meant to be abstractly > applied to imagined situations. Cintamaya panna is always in relation to the > present moment. --------------------------------------- Howard: Without paying attention to what arises in this moment, wholesome or unwholesome, one will act like a robot operating solely under the control of its programming, and for most of us, that programming (i.e., "accumulations") is largely unwholesome. Suk: The commentaries compare with a marionette? :-) No, not robot, for they are programmed, but puppet yes, pulled by the strings of conditions, all unpredictable. And I think we would do well to truly understand this. For in understanding we accept it not out of helpless abject, but even more motivated to develop further understanding. After all, even this feeling of helplessness is just another conditioned reality to be known. Once known it no longer has power to condition further proliferations in the direction. In other words, the desire to control and the `belief' in control are likewise seen as insignificant conditioned realities to be understood and not believed in. ;- ) ======================= Howard: Just one of many examples is the following from the Dhammapada: ____________________________________ 157. If one holds oneself dear, one should diligently watch oneself. Let the wise man keep vigil during any of the three watches of the night. 158. One should first establish oneself in what is proper; then only should one instruct others. Thus the wise man will not be reproached. 159. One should do what one teaches others to do; if one would train others, one should be well controlled oneself. Difficult, indeed, is self-control. 160. One truly is the protector of oneself; who else could the protector be? With oneself fully controlled, one gains a mastery that is hard to gain. 161. The evil a witless man does by himself, born of himself and produced by himself, grinds him as a diamond grinds a hard gem. 162. Just as a single creeper strangles the tree on which it grows, even so, a man who is exceedingly depraved harms himself as only an enemy might wish. 163. Easy to do are things that are bad and harmful to oneself. But exceedingly difficult to do are things that are good and beneficial. 164. Whoever, on account of perverted views, scorns the Teaching of the Perfected Ones, the Noble and Righteous Ones â€" that fool, like the bamboo, produces fruits only for self destruction. 14 165. By oneself is evil done; by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone; by oneself is one made pure. Purity and impurity depended on oneself; no one can purify another. 166. Let one not neglect one's own welfare for the sake of another, however great. Clearly understanding one's own welfare, let one be intent upon the good. Suk: Yes this is about `Effort' right and wrong and the need to discriminate between the two. Also how it is so easy for one to arise, and so difficult for the other. I'm pooped by now, so I'll end here. (:-)))) Metta, Sukinder #73655 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vinaya. what was it all about?, part 3. nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your kind post. I have no plans to observe anything, but I appreciate your intention of pointing out some reminders. The Vinaya, well, I do not quite know what to answer. I am surprised that you read it the way you do, but obviously different people read texts differently, due to accumulated conditions. This must really be something that you object to very, very strongly, and I do not understand this. ------- H: ------- N: Nobody will object to that, that is agreed by all. The Co would never deny this. Therefore, I do not see your concern. The example you object to should never be taken out of context. You take it out of context. But I tried to make this clear and we should leave the matter for now. Or perhaps others may come in. It is all right to me. Nina. Op 22-jun-2007, om 16:27 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > While you are at it, if you are so inclined, you might, during some of > your time, experiment with attending to deportment - calmly > observing in > detail the various sensations #73656 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? (was: Our di... upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin (and Phil) - In a message dated 6/22/07 12:48:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sukinder@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Phil*), > > This is going to be a characteristically long post and I suspect that you > may find some of what is in it, disagreeable. Nothing new in what either > of us are saying, so please feel free to not respond if you don't want to. > ========================= I will take you upon not responding. As you say, there is nothing new here. I feel that what I am saying is simply not being considered and that I am wasting my time. This is becoming my general feeling here. It's not just you. I plan to be posting less. Instead, I am meditating more. Less thought, more seeing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #73657 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vinaya. what was it all about?, part 3. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 6/22/07 2:46:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > thank you for your kind post. ------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you, in turn, for your kind post, Nina. :-) -------------------------------------- > I have no plans to observe anything, but I appreciate your intention > of pointing out some reminders. -------------------------------------- Howard: Of course, as you wish. In any case, I hope you and Lodewijk have a lovely time. Do, please, take great care. -------------------------------------- > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #73658 From: James Stewart Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:17 am Subject: Visuddhimagga study guide samvega_pasada Does anyone here know of any kind of study guide to the Visuddhimagga in circulation, whether electronic or published? Any reader of this massive and complex treatise would surely benefit from one. Thanks, James #73659 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? (was: Our dialogues in Paris, 3.) rameshat27 Dear Sarah, S:-"Like Nina, I was delighted to read your detail response and understanding of the comments I had selected. All your responses showed your really 'got' the points." R:- Thanks Dear Sarah, ur appreciation is nothing but very sweet gift for me..And this grp I find is very usefull for me in all aspects... * ********************************************************************************\ ****************************************** * S: "Please try and listen to one or more of the discussions on audio with A.Sujin on www.dhammastudygroup.org. " R:- I will try it today itself..to hear the discussions..with A. Sujin * ********************************************************************************\ ****************************************** * S:-"As you and Nidhi know, Nina, Jon, I and a few hundred others (!!) will be travelling with A.Sujin to India in mid-October. If either or both of you have the chance to meet us in Delhi or somewhere en route, pls let us know (off-list) perhaps. We have a busy itinerary, but if you were able to get to Delhi, I know A.Sujin would make time to have discussion with you. Agra would also be a possibility, I think." R:- Yaa Sure I am egorously waiting to meet u all.......and it will be a great treat for both of us if we get a chance to talk with A. Sujin...I will discuss with Nidhi also..As there is no hostality between me and her and as she is living just a couple of hours distance..we will do confirmation for some venue and will meet all of u there..please let us know the total days shedule..with datewise..as we have to take leave from office for these perticular days..and also to arrange the trip... * ********************************************************************************\ ****************************************** * *with metta* **************** *ramesh* *==========* <....> #73660 From: connie Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:04 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga study guide nichiconn samvega_pasada : Does anyone here know of any kind of study guide to the Visuddhimagga in circulation, whether electronic or published? Any reader of this massive and complex treatise would surely benefit from one. === You're just in time to help, James. Larry and Nina are writing one here. If you look at #73653 you'll see they are about half way thru ch.17. Also, look in the files section "Useful Posts". :) Please send me a copy when you've collected it! Lots of chapters left for us to work on. the study guide to the study guide. peace, connie #73661 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga study guide lbidd2 Hi James, "The Seven Stages of Purification and The Insight Knowledges" by Matara Sri ~Nanarama is a very short guide to the 7 stages as a meditation path but leaves out most of the abhidhamma. Published by BPS and available at Pariyatti: http://www.pariyatti.com/ There are several excellent abhidhamma guides including several from Nina available at Zolag, which is 'down' at the moment but also here: http://www.vipassana.info/index.html Also, as Connie said, dsg discussion in general is a guide to the Visuddhimagga. Nina has completed an extensive elucidation of ch. XIV "Khandha-niddesa". There is an email that gives an index of those discussions. I believe the subject is Vism.XIV,index The Yahoo search server is "busy" at the moment so I couldn't find it. Larry #73662 From: "samvega_pasada" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:57 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga study guide samvega_pasada Looks good! Apparently I am not the only one who feels that such a study guide is necessary. Though I do find myself wondering at the concept of a study guide to the study guide as well.. it seems to me a grim marker of the decay of the Dhamma that one should be necessary. Were this study guide to be finished, I cannot help but wonder how long it would be before another commentary or study guide would be needed to clarify and expound upon this one. Anyways, what exactly was the impetus for this endeavor? Looks as if one chapter has been finished. For what reason did you start at Chapter XIV instead of Chapter I? Is this a project with an end goal of producing a complete commentary? I will help in what ways I can.. but I am afraid that the scope of analysis that would be required for me to make a meaningful contribution to some commentary on the Vissudhimagga is beyond my current ability/knowledge. -James #73663 From: connie Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:03 pm Subject: uumivegabbhaahataapi nichiconn dear herman, read that yesterday and started laughing in my head: I Coulda Had a V-8. i like that you put your v8 chariot up there. i think mostly we are misfiring slant sixes; V-8 commercials (used to?) have people walking around tilted. Whack, smak dummy's forehead (reminds me of "the thinker") & woulda, shoulda, coulda done it up right with this vegetarian blend of 8 deliciously healthy things and who knows what else. it's red and worldly. It's not the V(ictor's) 8 of the road less driven on the Dhamma Mind Trip or the perfect blend of the teachings of one flavour. i try not to make up this stuff but, as with holding my breath ... ...cut out personal junk.... Minor Anthologies IV, stories of Mansions p.xvi: merit done ... is shown to result in a lifespan spent in a glorious, mobile Mansion in a deva-world. c: with their chariots of the gods. born to ride! i could learn to like thinking of heavens after all. shudder. p.xviii c: so, there is hope. yeah, i do have eternalist views and the encumbent tendencies. ditto, the other extremes. "I Do". That means "ultimately, there is divorce from reality". avijja. peace, workin' man. connie #73664 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide lbidd2 Hi James, James: "I cannot help but wonder how long it would be before another commentary or study guide would be needed to clarify and expound upon this one." Larry: It's more of an opportunity than a need for a study guide. An opportunity to learn and understand. J: "Anyways, what exactly was the impetus for this endeavor? Looks as if one chapter has been finished. For what reason did you start at Chapter XIV instead of Chapter I? Is this a project with an end goal of producing a complete commentary?" L: I wanted to understand it as closely as I could so I asked Nina to explain and bring in the untranslated commentary. It would take too long to go through the whole thing sentence by sentence so we began with XIV as the 'ground' of insight, then skipped to XVII on dependent arising, which is where we are now. This precedes the first two insights, the delimitation of nama and rupa (purification of view), and the discerning of cause and condition (purification by overcoming doubt). There's no goal. Each step is all there is. J: "I will help in what ways I can.. but I am afraid that the scope of analysis that would be required for me to make a meaningful contribution to some commentary on the Visuddhimagga is beyond my current ability/knowledge." L: A question is the best help for everyone. If the detail becomes overwhelming, look for the essential idea and focus on that. What do you want to understand? Larry #73665 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:06 pm Subject: Zolag nilovg Hi Larry and all, The new Zolag site is: < http://www.mediamax.com/alanweller/Hosted/ > Tell me if there is any trouble. Nina. #73666 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: I was referring to is the approach of ordinary Westerners who have > become Buddhist in comparison to the people I meet when I visit a > Thai or a Chinese temple. I really do think there is a > distinctively different approach to the Buddhist teachings for those > raised in them in Thailand or Taiwan, and those who are coming to > them from our Western psychoanalytic culture. Hi again Robert Yes, it's an interesting point and we all naturally make observations. If you look closely, there are even differences *within* such cultural groups. A fascinating book I came across was by an American researcher, Melford Spiro, who studied Buddhism in Burma decades ago. If memory serves me right, he divided Burmese Buddhism into 2 religions - the Kammatic (I want a good rebirth) variety of the masses and the Nibbanic variety of some monks and laypeople. Most Burmese he came across (including many monks) knew very little Dhamma "detail" e.g. some monks would tell him that Nibbana is an actual place. Fortunately, Abhidhamma teaches us that lack of "detail" (whilst not a good sign) doesn't necessarily equate with an absence of accumulated wisdom. But when it gets down to thinking that wrong view is right view, the ground is well on the way to being prepared for ignorance to be conditioned in the future (no matter whether a rebirth is good or bad). And, of course, I remember reading many suttas in which the Buddha stressed to the bhikkhus the vital importance of their correctly remembering his teachings so that they could give the correct answers when questioned. Failure to do so would no doubt hasten the sassana's decline and eventual disappearance. Off on a tangent again ... but if you are ever in a university library, have a look at Spiro's book. I think you'd find it interesting from a social research perspective. Gotta run. Best wishes Andrew #73667 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello Andrew, Thanks for your interesting comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > Fortunately, Abhidhamma teaches us that lack of "detail" (whilst not a > good sign) doesn't necessarily equate with an absence of accumulated > wisdom. But when it gets down to thinking that wrong view is right > view, the ground is well on the way to being prepared for ignorance to > be conditioned in the future (no matter whether a rebirth is good or > bad). And, of course, I remember reading many suttas in which the > Buddha stressed to the bhikkhus the vital importance of their correctly > remembering his teachings so that they could give the correct answers > when questioned. Failure to do so would no doubt hasten the sassana's > decline and eventual disappearance. > Yes, we should know Dhamma. It helps us on the path, but what is most helpful is to know not just the letter, but the spirit of those teachings. I have enjoyed our little discussion. With metta, Robert A. #73668 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:35 am Subject: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] sarahprocter... Dear Friends, The following extract is from a short exchange between us and K.Sujin after the cremation and viewing of the ashes in the temple grounds. ***** S.....[How one responds] depends on the different accumulations. ..... KS: Usually we should have a steady mind, ready to experience any reality, no matter it's unpleasant or pleasant, because there is nothing, just the experiencing and the object that's all, nothing more than that. So in terms of reality, one can see that, while one still clings by memory to whatever has happened which has already gone,[it's] no use! So one can see one's own clinging and one's own kilesa. He might be smiling now, feeling so happy. Why should we be sorry since we don't know. What one knows exactly is that all realities arise and fall away. That's it! It doesn't belong to 'his' or 'her'. That's why the teachings save us from all akusala, no matter how strong it is or how subtle it is. Reality is reality anyway. ..... S: Sometimes it seems that we need a shock like this to wake up and remember. ..... KS: Yes, yes, but [we] cannot help having this feeling as long as panna is not strong enough. That's why there should be the development of panna as much by reading, listening, thinking and being aware of reality. Otherwise one knows theoretically, but when it happens, the ignorance is there. We take it so seriously! Actually who can help the moment of the arising and falling away of that which arises? It's like this moment in terms of not being able to stop it. It means that if one tries, one tries to stop the arising and falling away of this moment. ============== Metta, Sarah p.s Pls note that the background is very noisy, so I'm having to guess at some of the words in the discussions. ========================== #73669 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner sarahprocter... Hi Phil, (Mike & all), --- Phil wrote: > Something occured to me this morning related to this. Every morning I > reflect on the sutta in AN about how one makes an island, a refuge for > oneself, through one's deeds, so when one departs this world, one may > part happily. (AN III, 51) This is obviously a very non-paramattha > sounding sutta. I think it is a strong condition for me to pursure > right view of the very conventional "avoid evil, do good" kind. .... S: The final verse of this sutta (Bodhi transl) is: "Life is swept away, brief is our span of years, There are no shelters for onw who has reached old age. Perceiving the peril that lurks in death, Perform good deeds that entail happiness. When one is restrained in body, Restrained by speech and by mind, The deeds of merit one did while alive Bring happiness when one departs." **** S: Surely the one who is truly restrained in body, speech and mind is the one who has learnt to see the danger 'in the slightest faults'. As we read in the Vism, 'it is the four foundations of mindfulness on which the mind is anchored.' (1, 51). .... >P: On the other hand, or on a deeper hand (?!) there is another sutta > somewhere in which the island, the refuge, is taught in very paramattha > terms, and I know I have heard Acharn Sujin refer to this teaching as > well. The island, the refuge, is a moment of direct understanding or > something like that. .... S: "Those bhikkhus of mine, Aananda, who now or after I am gone, abide as an island unto themselves, as a refuge unto themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their islamnd and refuge, seeking no other refuge; it is they who will become the highest*, if they have the desire to learn." (Mahaa Parinibbaana Sutta, (BPS, Sister Vajira and Francis Story transl). In the paragraph before, the Buddha makes it clear that it is through the development of the four satipatthanas that desire and sorrow are overcome and 'he is an island unto himself...' *The highest refer to those who have 'cut every bondage of darkness'[i.e arahantship] as the comy explains. "Those whose resprt is the four foundations of mindfulness will be at the very top of them." ... >P:....Going straight to the second > refuge, the refuge through moments of understanding directly, was > really premature for me, and I think it's safe to say it is premature > for others as well, if they are prone to many transgressions of sila.) .... S: Or we could say, the greater is the urgency to really understand dhammas for what they are, including the seeing of the danger in 'the slightest faults', let alone the 'grosser faults'. Fire is on our heads, the only real refuge is in the development of satipatthana. Finally as quoted by Connie in the Sister series: >C: "Attadiipaa tato hotha, satipa.t.thaanagocaraa; > bhaavetvaa sattabojjha"nge, dukkhassanta.m karissathaa"ti. (Apa. therii > 2.2.97-288). > Mahaapajaapatigotamiitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. <...> > "Therefore, be refuges to yourself. Develop the seven constituents of > awakening through the domain of the foundations of mindfulness, and you > will put an end to misery." > Thus these verses of Mahaa-Pajaapatii Gotamii were spoken. ***** S: A development of understanding and awareness of dhammas (as included in the four foundations), doesn't me any less regard for any other kind of wholesome deed, speech or mind -- quite the opposite. If it seems that one's understanding leads to less restraint rather than more, it suggests there's something wrong with the understanding, I think. Metta, Sarah ======== #73670 From: "Egbert" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue egberdina Hi Andrew and Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Yes, it's an interesting point and we all naturally make observations. > If you look closely, there are even differences *within* such cultural > groups. A fascinating book I came across was by an American > researcher, Melford Spiro, who studied Buddhism in Burma decades ago. > If memory serves me right, he divided Burmese Buddhism into 2 > religions - the Kammatic (I want a good rebirth) variety of the masses > and the Nibbanic variety of some monks and laypeople. Most Burmese he > came across (including many monks) knew very little Dhamma "detail" > e.g. some monks would tell him that Nibbana is an actual place. It may not have been in the same book you are refering to, but Spiro also made a study of animism in Burmese culture. While we Westerners may sing along to "the hills are alive with the sound of music", we don't actually believe that to be the case. But according to Spiro, for the average Burmese Joe, just about anything you care to name is alive with spirits. I agree that Spiro has the Kammatic, and the Nibbanic layer of Buddhism, but I have a feeling that he also had an Animistic layer (but I could be wrong). Whatever the case may be, the Tipitaka is replete with examples of objects inhabited by spirits. > > Fortunately, Abhidhamma teaches us that lack of "detail" (whilst not a > good sign) doesn't necessarily equate with an absence of accumulated > wisdom. But when it gets down to thinking that wrong view is right > view, the ground is well on the way to being prepared for ignorance to > be conditioned in the future (no matter whether a rebirth is good or > bad). And, of course, I remember reading many suttas in which the > Buddha stressed to the bhikkhus the vital importance of their correctly > remembering his teachings so that they could give the correct answers > when questioned. Failure to do so would no doubt hasten the sassana's > decline and eventual disappearance. Do you, Andrew, believe that it is vitally important to accurately remember the Buddha's words that spirits inhabit trees, lakes and the like? Herman #73671 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Virtue sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, --- Phil wrote: >The other day I read a sutta (SN 35:246, if I recall correctly - > I'm at work now) in which the bhikkhu (ie us) is told to refrain from > sensual pleasures, because it is a detestable way, a way for "inferior > people - it is not for you." .... S: The Simile of the Lute (B.Bodhi transl): "Bhikkhus, if in any bhikkhu or bhikkhuni desire or lust or hatred or delusion or aversion of mind should arise in regard to forms cognizable by the eye, such a one should rein in the mind from them thus: 'This path is fearful, dangerous, strewn with thorns, covered by jungle, a deviant path, an evil path, a way beset by scarcity. This is a path followed by inferior people; it is not the path followed by superior people. This is not for you.'...." It's interesting to read through the entire sutta ending with: " 'So too, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu investigates from to the extent there is a range for form.....feeling....perception...volitional formations....consciousness.....As he investigates form.....consciousness....., whatever notions of 'I' or 'mine' or 'I am' had occurred to him before no longer occur to him." .... I'm also reminded of another sutta I like a lot, 'The Hawk' (SN 47:6 - also Bodhi transl). When the quail strays outside its resort, it's carried off by the hawk. In a similar way we are urged not to stray outside our own resorts, otherwise Mara will get of us. What is NOT our own resort or domain are 'the five chords of sensual pleasure', starting with 'forms cognizable by the eye that are desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing, tantalizing.' So how are we told to wander in our own domain so that Mara won't swoop down and carry us away? It is through 'the four establishments of mindfulmness. "This is a bhikkhu's resort, his own ancestral domain." Metta, Sarah ======== #73672 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner sarahprocter... Dear Phil, Nina & Friends, --- sarah abbott wrote: > --- Phil wrote: > > Something occured to me this morning related to this. Every morning > I > > reflect on the sutta in AN about how one makes an island, a refuge for > > > oneself, through one's deeds, so when one departs this world, one may > > part happily. (AN III, 51) This is obviously a very non-paramattha > > sounding sutta. I think it is a strong condition for me to pursure > > right view of the very conventional "avoid evil, do good" kind. > .... > S: The final verse of this sutta (Bodhi transl) is: > > "Life is swept away, brief is our span of years, > There are no shelters for onw who has reached old age. > Perceiving the peril that lurks in death, > Perform good deeds that entail happiness. > When one is restrained in body, > Restrained by speech and by mind, > The deeds of merit one did while alive > Bring happiness when one departs." ... S: I just remembered that this sutta about the 2 brahmins was included in a series Nina recently posted. She quotes very detailed comments on it (and the commentary, I assume) which K.Sujin included in a lecture. I find it quite extraordinary in depth and so very, very true. Always searching for dukkha.... Phil, I know you're 'off' K.Sujin these days, but take a look at the second and third installments in particular. (No need to respond to anything I write. They're addressed to everyone and as you say, we all get value on reflecting on what we write.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69654 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69684 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/69598 This is a bit of a rush, so hope I haven't messed up with the links or anything. Metta, Sarah p.s Nina, thank you for all the great trouble you go to in order to transcribe, summarise and add your own comments so beautifully. ======= #73673 From: connie Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:54 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (60) nichiconn dear friends, 7. Sattakanipaato 3. Upacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 6 On verse: 192. "Atthi sakyakule jaato, sambuddho aparaajito; so me dhammamadesesi, jaatiyaa samatikkama.m. 192. The Unconquered Awakened One was born in the Sakyan clan. He taught me the Doctrine, the complete overcoming of birth: txt: Idaani jaatiyaa kaamaana~nca accantameva attanaa samatikkantabhaava.m muulato pa.t.thaaya dassentii- "atthi sakyakule jaato"ti-aadimaaha. Tattha aparaajitoti kilesamaaraadinaa kenaci na paraajito. Satthaa hi sabbaabhibhuu sadevaka.m loka.m a~n~nadatthu abhibhavitvaa .thito tasmaa aparaajito. Sesa.m vuttanayattaa uttaanameva. Pruitt: 192. Now, she begins with the cause and shows the fact she herself has completely overcome birth and sensual pleasures; therefore, she said, [the Unconquered Awakened One] who was born in the Sakyan clan, etc. There, the Unconquered (aparaajito) means: not conquered (na paraajito) by anyone such as the Maara of the defilements, etc.* For the Teacher, who has overcome everything, stands there, having completely overcome the world including the devas; therefore, [he is] the Unconquered. The meaning of the rest is plain. *Th-a II 16, 46, and Vism 211 (PPf VII 59) mention five Maaras: (1) of defilements, (2) of the aggregates, (3) of kamma-formations, (4) as deva, and (5) as death. Upacaalaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Sattakanipaatava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Upacaalaa. Here ends the commentary on the section of [groups of] seven [verses]. ============================ peace, connie #73674 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] nilovg Dear Sarah, This is helpful. When one tries to have sati, tries to control, tries to have more kusala, actually one tries to make this moment of trying last! Very accurate. I would love to hear Ramesh about this. Nina. Op 23-jun-2007, om 12:35 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Actually who can help the moment of the arising and falling away of > that > which arises? It's like this moment in terms of not being able to > stop it. > > It means that if one tries, one tries to stop the arising and > falling away > of this moment. #73675 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Sarah, Ramesh, and all) - In a message dated 6/23/07 9:01:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Dear Sarah, > This is helpful. When one tries to have sati, tries to control, tries > to have more kusala, actually one tries to make this moment of trying > last! Very accurate. > I would love to hear Ramesh about this. > > Nina. > ========================== As I also see it, one doesn't properly "try to have sati". One studies the Dhamma, pays attention to what is going on "in the moment", observes sila - guarding the senses & exercising restraint - thereby calming the mind, and periodically engages in interior silence and non-dispersion of attention. And should all this, in cooperation with other conditions, bear fruit, more and more often will sati arise. With metta, Howard #73676 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:54 am Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] avalo1968 Hello Howard, Thank you for this very succinct description of practice. Robert A. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > ========================== > As I also see it, one doesn't properly "try to have sati". One studies > the Dhamma, pays attention to what is going on "in the moment", observes sila > - guarding the senses & exercising restraint - thereby calming the mind, and > periodically engages in interior silence and non-dispersion of attention. And > should all this, in cooperation with other conditions, bear fruit, more and > more often will sati arise. > #73677 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide nilovg Hi Larry and James S, I like the way Larry expressed it: There's no goal. Each step is all there is. We go step by step and do not think of the future, which would condition clinging or discouragement. James, any question on the sections we are doing are most helpful for many, I think. Nina. Op 23-jun-2007, om 5:51 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > so we began with XIV > as the 'ground' of insight, then skipped to XVII on dependent arising, > which is where we are now. This precedes the first two insights, the > delimitation of nama and rupa (purification of view), and the > discerning > of cause and condition (purification by overcoming doubt). > > There's no goal. Each step is all there is. #73678 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:34 pm Subject: Sila Corner - to Han philofillet Hi Han How've you been? I miss reading your posts. I'm sorry I haven' been contributing at all to the "Sila Corner." I'll probably drop the endeavour. I think at DSG it will inevitably lead to sutta quotations and posts related to them being analyzed in order to find the "wrong view" in them, and therefore to the ineviable need to try to explain why the "wrong view" that is being pointed at is too deep and subtle to be of import to busy worldlings. (I think it is acutally not-having-the-right-view of the sotapanna.) I would rather just stick with my shallow appreciation of the sutta passages, and be guided in the shallow way I am (which is not wrong, unless Bhikkhu Bodhi is wrong, and I doubt he is "wrong" enough to take away from the very helfpul way that he is right) without getting caught up in debate about them. (The debate is absolutely valid and helpful for those who are helped by it, but I am not, not now, anyways.) So, sorry, but I wouldn't be able to contribute to any "sila corner." Also, it has occured to me that even more paramount is guarding the sesne doors. That is where sila is established, I have a feeling. Anyways, again, hope you've been well. Metta, Phil #73679 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue corvus121 Hi Herman > It may not have been in the same book you are refering to, but Spiro > also made a study of animism in Burmese culture. While we Westerners > may sing along to "the hills are alive with the sound of music", we > don't actually believe that to be the case. But according to Spiro, > for the average Burmese Joe, just about anything you care to name is > alive with spirits. I agree that Spiro has the Kammatic, and the > Nibbanic layer of Buddhism, but I have a feeling that he also had an > Animistic layer (but I could be wrong). Whatever the case may be, the > Tipitaka is replete with examples of objects inhabited by spirits. I suspect you are talking about a different book by the same author. I think Spiro was a researcher in the field of "society and religion" and was quite a prolific writer over his career. Next time you're in Reykjavik, why not get yourself a copy of the Icelandic national ghosts and spirits map. It will tell you who and what haunts when and where, so that you can be prepared. I wouldn't go so far as to say that the locals "don't actually believe" it. ;-) > Do you, Andrew, believe that it is vitally important to accurately > remember the Buddha's words that spirits inhabit trees, lakes and the > like? 1. I don't know what spirits are. 2. I can't scientifically prove that spirits exist or could not possibly exist as some form of phenomenon. 3. Facts 1 and 2 do not cause me to go around actively denying the existence of spirits. 4 As I type, I do not truly believe it is vitally important to accurately remember the Buddha's words that spirits inhabit trees etc. 5 However, I remain open to the possibility that they do and that, at some future point, I may consider it vitally important to see and acknowledge this as real. 6 On an intellectual level and as far as I can tell from experience, I believe that saddha is an integral part of kusala and a necessary companion to panna. But saddha does not involve a dishonest or pretentious self-hypnotisation to certainty about the uncertain. That's all I'm saying about this, Herman, as you and I have already reached our impasse on the equation, Science = Dhamma. You think it adds up and I don't. [If I can tickle your funny bone for a minute, I actually know someone who believes a Tibetan lama cured his terrible back pains by placating the spirits that were living in some trees he cut down when he was building his house. He swears that the total cure happened immediately after the chanting. I don't believe or disbelieve him - and I don't feel any the lesser for this!] Best wishes Andrew #73680 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide buddhatrue Hi Larry, Nina, James, Just popping in for a short comment. I saw my name and thought this thread was addressed to me (but it is a different James ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Larry and James S, > I like the way Larry expressed it: There's no goal. Each step is all > there is. James: If there is no goal to what Larry is doing then it is completely pointless. He is wasting his and everyone's time if there is no goal to his project. There must be goals or any development is directionless. Goals can be immediate, short-term, or long-term. The Buddha always worked with goals, before and after his enlightenment. Being directionless isn't being wise. > We go step by step and do not think of the future, which would > condition clinging or discouragement. James: If we go step-by-step and don't keep an eye on the future, then we will just walk aimlessly around. To go anywhere, you must know where you are going. Keeping your eye on specific goals: immediate, short-term, and long-term goals, will only condition clinging or discouragement in the small-minded. > James, any question on the sections we are doing are most helpful for > many, I think. James: Why would James have any questions about something that supposedly has no purpose? But, of course, Larry is quite mistaken. His project does have a goal- he just doesn't want to say so. To say that he has no goal in mind is an empty platitude (sounds deep but is meaningless). > Nina. Okay, this is a hit and run. Off I go again! ;-)) Metta, James M. (Not the other James ;-)) #73681 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide lbidd2 Hi Goal Oriented James, GOJ: "If there is no goal to what Larry is doing then it is completely pointless. He is wasting his and everyone's time if there is no goal to his project. There must be goals or any development is directionless." Larry: Sorry for the confusion about the two Jameses. To tell you the truth, I forgot all about you. Here comes the alzheimer's ;-)) But I at least have enough wherewithal to tell that your view of goal orientation and 'really getting somewhere' is complete nonsense. A goal is a fantasy, an imagined future. What good is it? A meaningful life can only be tasted in the present moment. For example, you might have an occasion to wash your own dishes. You can approach this in a very goal oriented way with the idea of just getting it done so you can go back to some imagined better experience. Or there could be a simple immersion in the experience of dish washing. You might think you will get lost without a goal, but actually you will do a better job. Have a nice goalless vacation! Larry #73682 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (andf James) - In a message dated 6/24/07 12:41:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Goal Oriented James, > > GOJ: "If there is no goal to what Larry is doing then it is > completely pointless. He is wasting his and everyone's time if there is > no goal to his project. There must be goals or any development is > directionless." > > Larry: Sorry for the confusion about the two Jameses. To tell you the > truth, I forgot all about you. Here comes the alzheimer's ;-)) But I at > least have enough wherewithal to tell that your view of goal orientation > and 'really getting somewhere' is complete nonsense. A goal is a > fantasy, an imagined future. What good is it? A meaningful life can only > be tasted in the present moment. For example, you might have an occasion > to wash your own dishes. You can approach this in a very goal oriented > way with the idea of just getting it done so you can go back to some > imagined better experience. Or there could be a simple immersion in the > experience of dish washing. You might think you will get lost without a > goal, but actually you will do a better job. Have a nice goalless > vacation! > > Larry > ======================= Larry, you must have much more in mind by 'goal' than I do. For me, I fail to see how ever getting to washing the dishes could occur without a goal. Breathing occurs without a goal and beating of the heart, but little else, it seems to me! ;-) With metta, Howard #73683 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide avalo1968 Hello Larry, and all, Everything we do has a goal - the dish washing has a goal of clean dishes. Perhaps those who are adverse to goals are thinking about results of actions as objects of clinging, but it doesn't have to be. You can focus on the process of what you are doing and still let go of the result, allowing things to come out as they will. Results are always outside of our control, but we do have the capacity to make choices and to act. Robert A. #73684 From: "Andrew" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:02 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > Hello Larry, and all, > > Everything we do has a goal - the dish washing has a goal of clean > dishes. Perhaps those who are adverse to goals are thinking about > results of actions as objects of clinging, but it doesn't have to > be. You can focus on the process of what you are doing and still > let go of the result, allowing things to come out as they will. > Results are always outside of our control, but we do have the > capacity to make choices and to act. Hi Robert A, Larry and all I think I'm more with Larry on this one. The goal per se isn't the problem. Here's a snippet from Henri van Zeyst (Bhikkhu Dhammapala) that I think is relevant: "Our difficulty ... is not how to make a right choice, but how to think rightly so that there will be no choice, no deliberation, but immediate action, as a result not of desire but of full comprehensive awareness." I think the writer is here stressing that the Buddha's path is led by understanding. When there is understanding, the ego-based conflict that necessarily underlies any rational choice is seen to be illusory. Our rational choices are just ego-based thinking. [important note here for Phil & Co: I haven't taken another step and said that therefore we should fall in a heap, cease all thinking as 'worthless' and do nothing for fear of strengthening the ego. That's just thinking, too! ;-)) ] Robert, the quote from Bh. Dhammapala above sounds to me rather like your earlier comments about not getting tangled up in analytical knots such that right action, if it ever eventuates, is delayed. What do you think? Is there a dissonance between avoidance of analytical thinking (as opposed to responding to the spirit of the teachings) and encouraging rational "choices" based on Dhamma/ethical thinking? Best wishes Andrew #73685 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:22 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner--Hummingbird Perversions philofillet Hi Mike A chance to catch up before Naomi gets home. She still gets irritated when she sees me typing messages to my "cult." Perhaps if I were more productive in other areas.... (not a problem, she's half joking and certainly appreciates how much more peaceful the Dhamma has made me.) > Before getting back to replies to > earlier posts though, I wanted to share my morning's preoccupation > with you. A new generation of hummingbirds has hatched here and I'm > having to fill the feeders twice a day. My feelings for these little > ones is downright, well--treacly. Any idea how wholesome/unwholesome > this all is? No, I guess not. The Abhidhamma approach would say there are countless moments of wholesome and unwholesome mixed together. The Phil-these-days approach would say that any inclination to care for a living being is wholesome, no matter the lobha. And probably there is less of the danger that is involved in our attachments to loved ones. I often reflect on how if I were to see someone strike Naomi, for example, I would strike back and strike back violently without any possibility whatsoever of restraint. Whereas with a hummingbird... > > I decided to analyze these feelings with the limited equipment at my > disposal and found--not entirely to my surprise--that consistently > there were (approx.) 1.2-1.5 ppg (parts per gazillian) of mettaa in > any one hummingbird observance. Ph: Huh? You really *were* stoned on the cold medicine weren't you? I love that stuff too! :) Seriously, I don't think there is anyway for me to know the characteristic of metta directly - I don't believe in knowing the characteristics of dhammas directly these days. Not the slightest doubt that the Buddha did and that moving in that direction is the only way to move towards liberation, but I am highly dubious of the notion of worldlings knowing the sort of thing that you are hinting at above. Just a lot of thinking in my opinion. Remember you wrote about playing cribbage with Rose. "A lot of mana" and something like that. Do you really know that or is it just saying what you think seems that there would be in that situation? > > And it occurred to me: how many of these same feelings (and actions) > would have occured if they didn't look the way they do? Or sound the > way they do? Or seem (pa.tibhaati) Ph: Tell me more about this pa. tibhaati - does it have to do with the vipalassas? the way they do (mentally)? Would > I still be preparing and serving there meals? How much does the same > apply to my other daily activities, or applied even when I was keeping > eight precepts? Ph: Hmm. I wouldn't think so much about it. If there is an inclination to take care of the little angels, it is good. The other day I was walking to work and came across a moth or small butterfly stuck in a spider web, beating its wings. Of course there wasn't a thought in its head, but I was perfectly happy to anthopomorphize the little fellow and sense its fear and when I released it and saw it flutter away my mood soared with it. Some people were nearby and I heard them say nice things about me as I walked away and I felt even better. I don't care if there was lobha or mana involved. I felt happy, the other people felt happy, and the butterfly didn't get killed, yet. The spider was pissed off, but he will be better for it in the long run. My point is that I think these days that all that matters is on the surface, what we do, or don't do, what we say, or don't say, what we think, or don't think. The dhammas at the root of it don't concern me. It is my belief that an attitude based on the importance of action and its consequences will lead to a smoothing of the surface of the pond, and there can then be deeper insight. I think this is found in those similes about the hindrances, all the water similes, dyed, muddy, turgid, disturbed by wind and so on.What we do on the surface provides better conditions for insight. If I'm wrong on this, so what? I still have my actions on the surface, and when I am old and on my death bed, if I am so lucky, I will feel a sense of contentment that thanks to the Buddha's teaching I came to be a person who did far less harm to myself and others. I'm not a "personalist" - I know there is no self, there is not really a Phil. I'm not lacking basic right view on that point. > > I'm gambling that abhidhamma--especially what is (or seems to me) > unmistakable in the discourses--helps me to understand what really is > wholesome and what seems so but isn't. Without that understanding, > how can I hope for arising of right effort, for example? Ph: See above. I don't believe that the kind of understanding pointed at and in my opinion excessively urged by Acharn Sujin will come to be except by a lot of thinking and a lot of accumulating concepts in the belief that there is something paramattha going on. I suspect this is just a stage. Also, I am getting my abhidhamma these days from the Burmese Sayadaws and they do not discourage us from meditating because of the clinging involved and whatnot. I do think it is really Acharn Sujin's approach rather than abhidhamma, though of course her knowledge of abhidhamma is superb. > > Is any of this slightly feverish ramble at all pertinent to our > discussion? I have outrambled you! I don't know if it was pertinet either. These days I think I am just repeating myself again and again and again... > With Ucchurasa, What does Uchhurasa mean? Sorry if I missed it above. (One thing that hasn't changed is that I still think it is good to use Pali terms - it helps clarifies things. I haven't become a Paliphobe.) Metta, Phil p.s could I ask you to hold off on responding for a few days? I am falling behind. #73686 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sila Corner - to Han sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > > Hi Han > > How've you been? I miss reading your posts. .... S: Just for your info, Han mentioned (I forget if it was on or off-list) that he'd be away from internet access for a week or so. We'll be seeing him next week, so I'll check that he's seen your message. Metta, Sarah ========= #73687 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati sarahprocter... Hi Sukin (& Nidhi), A good discussion and I liked the way you put the following, Sukin: --- Sukinder wrote: > However `perfections' are what they are by > virtue of their being accompanied by wisdom. So it must come back to > understanding the moment. Otherwise it is so easy to take any or all of > these ten perfections for "self". In which case, they won't serve their > function in assisting one towards the goal. ... S: I thought this was neat too: > Grasping at concepts is what we do, with or without Dhamma, but after > hearing the Dhamma, we are given a chance to recognize it as such. ... S: Yes, we're 'experts' at chasing after dreams, dwelling on the same concepts over and over again. This is why it's so important to see the distinction between realities (paramattha dhammas) and concepts. Metta, Sarah ====== #73688 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sila Corner - to Han philofillet Thanks Sarah. Say hi to Han from his biggest fan, Phil. Metta, Phil #73689 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:59 am Subject: Re: Colette-isms = Colette-oscope? Hmmmmm. philofillet Hi Colette Thanks for waiting for my reply. > I'm glad that I could read a post that didn't tax my brain without > any lubrication, coffee, as Sarah seemed in the mood to poke a joke > or two at me when she entered her latest post to me. Interesting, isn't it. I always perk up to the Dhamma when I drink coffee, but then there are posts that are so simple in their approach that I can appreciate them even at my groggiest. I personally don't think taxing our brain to get at the heart of Dhamma is the way to go. I don't think it's possible to get there by taxing our brain. That's the way I feel these days. I thiink having a brain that is de-taxed thanks to meditation (and having a meditation object that we can return to often and easily during the day to calm down the racing mind) is the way to go. That is the kind of brain that will see into things better, I think. A few years ago > I recall a person giving me the distinction of possessing "Isms" and > they just blew me away with laughter. Here again, with your colette- > oscope, I ponder the musician Eminem and his references to Batman. > It's light, humourous, thanx. My pleasure. I like your posts these days. I used to find them too harsh, and I really disliked an anti-semitic streak in them, but these days I am finding colette very lovely and energizing. > > > > > Hmm. I think karma is the *only* concern for me right now. I > don't > > know how kamma plays out, but my whole practice these days is > > avoiding transgression of akusala kamma pathha, or being more aware > > of transgression since one cannot decide not to transgress. > > colette: isn't that self-defeating? Once you are aware of what > constitutes akusala and kusala then aren't you responsible for the > effects? That's a side issue, what really matters is how you deal > with the knowledge that there is a difference between the two. People > in this life here & now, seem to go overboard with Obsessive > Compulsive Disorders (OCD) and they can't see that it's a tiny little > thing that they've ignored that has festered it's way into become a > big thing. Aren't you worried about your subconscious or unconscious > or even your "alaya-vijnana"? They just might play a role in how you > deal with things and events but on the other hand that may be a good > thing since it will remind you to study the dhamma better and more > closely. Six of one thing, half a dozen of another, it's all the > same, no? Ph: Sorry, I didn't get this. My policy these days is that if I don't get something in a post on the first reading I let it go! That won't last. We have to tax our brains and thinking harder about Dhamma sometimes but not now, for me. > (For me, the good deeds are more > > about abstaining from bad deeds, > > colette: sounds good, sounds like a plan, the recognition of the fact > that you do committ bad deeds. <....> > ---------------------------- Ph: I like a sutta in AN in which the Buddha urges us to reflect on the "blemishes" we have in our mind, whether we are *often* hateful, or lustful or whatever. It is a sutta called "A mirror" I think. It probably sounds too self-helpish for most people here, but I think this kind of self-assessment is very helpful, and I think the Buddha invited us to do it. There is another one in which the Buddha asks us to consider whether we would like to die with these stains in our mind, and urges us to do something about getting rid of them. I believe we can. I know we can. Not completely eradicating them, that will take so many lifetimes, but dramatic progress can be made - I know that for a fact. For example, sexual fantasies have now become so very foreign to my mind. I tried one the other day and it just felt so foreign and unfamiliar. That's from just a couple of years of again and again and again and again and again x 1000 refusing to engage them, of letting go of the inclination again and again and again. If someone tells me that there has not been a recircuiting of my mind's tendencies that is important and to be celebrated (Praise to the Buddha) I will just thank them for their opinion and proceed to ignore it! (That may change...) Bit of a ramble there, Colette. Thanks for lending me an ear. Metta, Phil #73690 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Hope your computer's fixed now.....your motherboard fried and recently my cooling fan overbaked.....:-/ --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Scott: The grief reaction is 'unwholesome attachment' par excellence. > In the absence of the one to whom one is attached, the strength of > the attachment comes to the surface now that this one is gone. It is > a massive protest which, if I'm getting the gist of 'visama lobha', > qualifies it as an enormous block to the development of understanding. .... S: As Nina said, this is definitely not visama lobha (out of the ordinary lobha), but very sama lobha (ordinary lobha) which conditions such grief, however strong. It's very natural grief, Scott. Visama lobha is the kind of lobha that leads to improper behaviour of one kind or other and which is likely to lead to extreme measures to cover the tracks. This is the kind of lobha which I mentioned can be a 'block', especially if one is obsessed with it and it leads one away from association with the wise. Visama lobha is conditioned by kamma and accumulations, but still if the inclination is there, there can be listening to the dhamma and gradually the extreme lobha can be eradicated if not in this lifetime, then over lifetimes. I think the Agga~n~na Sutta in DN gives some good examples. Lots of other examples of truly deviant behaviour which would qualify. As usual, however, it's not so much about categorising situations as about particular cittas. ... > S: "However, listening and considering the dhamma further is the only > medicine. The disturbing behaviour has to be conditioned by kamma and > accumulations. Better to listen and consider more about dhammas now > than to think on and on about these tendencies." > > Scott: I'm reminded here that the experience of suffering can be > decisive support for faith and other kusala dhammas. ... S: As I said, we're talking a little at cross purposes here. Yes, it's true that the experience of suffering (dukkha dukkha) can be a support as you say. It can also be decisive support for dosa and akusala dhammas too! ... > S: "...As I said, I'll add a little more on the sama and visama lobha > comments when I get to that part of the funeral proceedings..." > > Scott: I'll look forward to that. I think that real kindness to the > bereaved can take forms different than those considered by convention > to be 'helpful'. True kindness by someone accumulates to them alone. > I think of all the kindess I experienced after the death of my wife > with gratitude. ... S: I'm sure this is true. This is a bit of a tangent, but I'd be glad to hear (if it's not too personal) what kindnesses you found particularly helpful. .... > Thinking, talking, supporting - all hasten nothing. Grief can be > truly attenuated only by understanding, of whatever level, that > attachment is akusala. True peace and calm can only arise when some > level of understanding, perhaps conditioned by signs of the Dhamma or > talk of Dhamma, perceives something of the nature of impermanence. .... S: I think this is very beautifully said. The truth is tough, but it is the only way. Thanks for sharing your comments and experience, Scott. Metta, Sarah ========= #73691 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Satipatthana- not appropriate for most householders sarahprocter... Hi Robert A (& James M) --- Robert wrote: > Robert A: > Is the distinction between householders and monastics so clear cut? > I have always felt that both can cultivate the same thing, which is > clear seeing. Peace, joy, and liberation all arise from this same > source. I don't see why cultivating a peaceful, pure, and happy > life conflicts with liberation, for the only way to find peace, > purity, and happiness is through seeing the truth, and seeing the > truth is liberation. .... S: I'm inclined to agree with what you say here. There are the 6 worlds to be known 'through seeing the truth', regardless of whether one is ordained or not, regardless of one's lifestyle. One path for all:-) Metta, Sarah ======= #73692 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, (Connie & all) back to #73370 --- upasaka@... wrote: > > S: Why not do some of your research in 'Useful Posts' in the files > section > > of DSG, scrolling down to 'Intermediate States' (Bardo)? > > > > If one citta follows another, how can there be any gap? This is the > > question, I think. > > > ========================= > An alleged intermediate "state" could consist of a multitude of > mindstates as well, Sarah, so that wouldn't be the point. .... S: In the Theravada texts, consciousness is said to be fourfold: 1)sense-sphere consciousness, 2)fine-material sphere consciousness, 3) immaterial sphere consciousness, 4) supramundane consciousness. There are no states or gaps between any realms consisting of these kinds of consciousness and no rebirth outside the various sense-sphere (kaamavacara), fine-material (ruupa) and immaterial (aruupa) worlds. Details can be found in the Kathaavatthu, 'Of an Intermediate State' on this. (I've quoted from it before.) .... >It is just > that certain of > the old schools and Mahayana, but not, of course, Theravada, accept > transitional realms of experirence - rather dreamlike - that occur as > intermediate > periods during "moves" between standard realms. There are a couple Pali > suttas > that speak of an intermediate movement likened to a spark flying through > the air. > I don't have the reference handy, but I can try to find it for you. (Not > a > very important matter to my mind! :-) .... S: I'm sure they'be been quoted before and responded to as well! For example, see this as a typical example: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/64803 Lots of past detail and refutation under 'Intermediate States' in U.P.:-) As you say, not a very important matter perhaps. Again, I think it comes back to understanding this momentary citta and how it always follows a previous momentary citta and must be followed by another momentary citta. (Connie, I'll be winding up threads before going away next weekend. Maybe you or others can help with any further details. I know this is a favourite topic of yours!) Metta, Sarah ======= #73693 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Connie) - In a message dated 6/24/07 7:32:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, (Connie &all) > > back to #73370 > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >>S: Why not do some of your research in 'Useful Posts' in the files > >section > >>of DSG, scrolling down to 'Intermediate States' (Bardo)? > >> > >>If one citta follows another, how can there be any gap? This is the > >>question, I think. > >> > >========================= > > An alleged intermediate "state" could consist of a multitude of > >mindstates as well, Sarah, so that wouldn't be the point. > .... > S: In the Theravada texts, consciousness is said to be fourfold: > 1)sense-sphere consciousness, 2)fine-material sphere consciousness, 3) > immaterial sphere consciousness, 4) supramundane consciousness. > > There are no states or gaps between any realms consisting of these kinds > of consciousness and no rebirth outside the various sense-sphere > (kaamavacara), fine-material (ruupa) and immaterial (aruupa) worlds. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Sarah, I was just addressing there that particular point you made. I'm not defending the bardo thesis. It is unimportant to me, for one thing, and, also, I have no reason to believe in bardo states. I'm aware that the Buddha taught only of the six realms, and I have no reason to suspect that there are intermediate periods unmentioned by him. If there are, I suppose they are among the leaves not in his hand, but I presume there are not. ------------------------------------------- > > Details can be found in the Kathaavatthu, 'Of an Intermediate State' on > this. (I've quoted from it before.) > .... > >It is just > >that certain of > >the old schools and Mahayana, but not, of course, Theravada, accept > >transitional realms of experirence - rather dreamlike - that occur as > >intermediate > >periods during "moves" between standard realms. There are a couple Pali > >suttas > >that speak of an intermediate movement likened to a spark flying through > >the air. > >I don't have the reference handy, but I can try to find it for you. (Not > >a > >very important matter to my mind! :-) > .... > S: I'm sure they'be been quoted before and responded to as well! ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm not sure about that. But this is a major "don't care" issue for me! LOL! At any time, there is just where "I am", and I have quite enough to work with right here and now! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- > > For example, see this as a typical example: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/64803 > > Lots of past detail and refutation under 'Intermediate States' in U.P.:-) > > As you say, not a very important matter perhaps. Again, I think it comes > back to understanding this momentary citta and how it always follows a > previous momentary citta and must be followed by another momentary citta. -------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) You never saw a citta you didn't like, Sarah! LOL! I, however, never saw a citta per se at all. But I have, and am, aware of knowing, of known, of quality of mind - when there is upset, and when there is peace. May we all have more genuine peace. ------------------------------------------------- > > (Connie, I'll be winding up threads before going away next weekend. Maybe > you or others can help with any further details. I know this is a > favourite topic of yours!) > > Metta, > > Sarah ======================= With metta, Howard #73694 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:55 am Subject: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, I appreciate your reply: S: "Hope your computer's fixed now.....your motherboard fried and recently my cooling fan overbaked.....:-/" Scott: Yep, back on track - these things do a lot of cooking, dont't they? S: "...Visama lobha is the kind of lobha that leads to improper behaviour of one kind or other and which is likely to lead to extreme measures to cover the tracks. This is the kind of lobha which I mentioned can be a 'block', especially if one is obsessed with it and it leads one away from association with the wise. Visama lobha is conditioned by kamma and accumulations, but still if the inclination is there, there can be listening to the dhamma and gradually the extreme lobha can be eradicated if not in this lifetime, then over lifetimes. I think the Agga~n~na Sutta in DN gives some good examples. Lots of other examples of truly deviant behaviour which would qualify. As usual, however, it's not so much about categorising situations as about particular cittas." Scott: Thanks for the clarification. The Agga~n~na Sutta seems to indicate how lobha persists as accumulation, describing what must be a very long period of time over which beings, born into the Aabhassara Brahmaa world after a time of contraction, find rebirth in this world as it forms. As the sutta depicts, they coarsen over time and due to craving - but actually, I'd guess, all that comes of it - and 'evolve' from mind-made luminous beings into the various sorts of humans. This seems based on the actions which arise out of craving. The Buddha repeats that 'Dhamma's the best thing for people in this life and the next as well'. S: As I said, we're talking a little at cross purposes here. Yes, it's true that the experience of suffering (dukkha dukkha) can be a support as you say. It can also be decisive support for dosa and akusala dhammas too!" Scott: True enough. S: "...I'd be glad to hear (if it's not too personal) what kindnesses you found particularly helpful." Scott: The first moment of kindness I recall came moments after Andy died. I had been up with her for a couple of nights. She died at three in the morning. I remember, soon after she breathed her last, going down from the palliative care unit to the main floor in search of coffee or something. No one was there save for a security officer. I must have looked a wreck - I know I felt totally strung out - I think I said something like, "My wife's just died and can I get coffee at this time of night?" Although this didn't quite happen, the guy almost had to lead me by the hand to find some coffee but he did and gave it to me and sat me outside in the cool and I know that that wasn't in his job description. He didn't say much, just did stuff. I couldn't work right after Andy died and so I asked if I could 'volunteer' as a parent helper in Luke's kindergarten class. Mrs. Willson let me. She just gave me things to do like laminating and making booklets for the kids and attending to various learning stations. I know I was of no use, being preoccupied as I was and more or less on autopilot, gone within. Mrs. Willson just gave me those little tasks to do, over and over. I was there for a month. All the people in the school were quiet, kind, patient, and non-intrusive and so the school was made a sort of refuge for me. A friend at work, a psychiatrist and colleague, would cook for us and bring the meal for me to take home to the family from time to time. My co-therapist in a psychotherapy group just took over the group for almost three months without a word of complaint. There were other kindnesses but for me it was the unobtrusive, quiet actions that seemed to carry the weight. Sincerely, Scott. #73695 From: connie Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:24 am Subject: re: Virtue nichiconn Herman: Tipitaka is replete with examples of objects inhabited by spirits. connie: yes, this is vitally important: "...that spirits inhabit trees, lakes and the like" the like being rupa. the spirits? sista cittas (not mineral and pine!) pulling the rupa'pet'strings. and in the 5-khanda realms there must be "that rupa", the hadaya vatthu. do not cling to a basis! dispell the enjoyment of what you know. heedful. loveless. wise. meanwhile, hope like hell the gods on our sides greatly rejoice in the supreme teaching. i'm not sure the devil king of the sixth heaven does. pretty sure we don't. not greatly enough. later, connie #73696 From: "Robert" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:37 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide avalo1968 Hello Andrew, Thank you for your reply. You hit on the dilemma in this part of your posting: Andrew: I think the writer is here stressing that the Buddha's path is led by understanding. When there is understanding, the ego-based conflict that necessarily underlies any rational choice is seen to be illusory. Our rational choices are just ego-based thinking. [important note here for Phil & Co: I haven't taken another step and said that therefore we should fall in a heap, cease all thinking as 'worthless' and do nothing for fear of strengthening the ego. That's just thinking, too! ;-)) ] Robert A: So if we agree we do not want to fall in a heap, then we have to act, and we do every day. The question is what directs our actions? It could be understanding that "ego-based conflict that necessarily underlies any rational choice is seen to be illusory", but in my case my intellectual understanding of anatta is not much good in directing my actions. I am still the same desire driven creature after I studied these teachings as before. For me, the more useful teachings in directing my actions are the teachings on what you should do rather than the teachings on what you should believe, for those require only the understanding that following these teachings lead to living a better life - one that causes less harm and brings more happiness and peace and this can be seen easily enough if you put those teachings into practice, even if imperfectly. Understanding of the Four Noble Truths will come in time as we follow the Buddha's guidance to practice restraint and ethical thoughts, words, and deeds, and to calm and steady our minds, as well as studying the teachings. Andrew: Robert, the quote from Bh. Dhammapala above sounds to me rather like your earlier comments about not getting tangled up in analytical knots such that right action, if it ever eventuates, is delayed. What do you think? Is there a dissonance between avoidance of analytical thinking (as opposed to responding to the spirit of the teachings) and encouraging rational "choices" based on Dhamma/ethical thinking? Robert A: Why is "choices" in quotes above? Possibly the act of quoting the word choices is an example of the analytical knots I was talking about. We do make choices every moment. The question is what is the basis for those choices. We do our best to respond to the spirit of the teachings, however imperfect is our understanding of those teachings, with help from the guidance we can get from those who are wiser than ourselves. There is always some degree of confusion in our response, but we must do the best we can. But we have to make choices and act on those choices. Thank you for your comments. They are helpful. Robert A. Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15) #73697 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:51 am Subject: Re: what is sati sukinderpal Hi Robert, Sorry for the delay in responding. ==================== Robert: Can I ask you to clarify something you wrote in this post to Nidhi: S: Sure, in fact I'm happy that you wrote, thinking perhaps that my posts last time, would discourage you from discussing with me again. :-) ==================== > sukin: I don't know Nidhi, if you are saying that intention place > a decisive role in the development of the Path, then I have to > disagree. > ================= Robert: It seems clear to me that, every moment of every day, I am exercising intention - the intention to act with restraint of the senses or the intention to indulge them, the intention to loosen my grip or to tighten it, the intention to respond to someone else's words with metta or with anger. I believe that the choices I make in each of these situations do play a decisive role in my experience of the world and in determining my capacity to see the truth. I presume that you are making the same kind of choices. Haven't you had the same experience that depending on if you make choices that are skillful or unskillful, your experience of the world is different, and isn't that difference significant to the state of your mind and your ability to see things more clearly? S: When there is intention to raise the hand and it does get raised, it is fine at the everyday conventional level, to make the connection and think in terms of the particular relationship. Otherwise what would be the basis for me to think about going out to get food when feeling hungry? Or on the social level, to ask someone to pass me the salt, or to write this post expecting you to read it, if such connections were not at one level valid. But of course we also know that a paralyzed person can't move his limb no matter how much he intends it…. And this is why we should consider more deeply about conditionality. To put it another way, after hearing Dhamma, we come to know that much more goes on behind any thought, speech or action. We see for example, that many cittas have arisen and fallen away before a well defined "thought" is formed. In other words, many, many intentions have taken effect, before we finally come to believe in a particular thought as being representative of our `present' intention. So firstly we are taking for intention what in fact is a "thought", and secondly, we are ignorant of all the dhammas that went just before and during this time. But even if we don't take into account all this, should we not at least acknowledge that the intention itself, is "conditioned"? But actually, the very idea of Satipatthana as being "the" Buddhist practice is so that we come to know this very thing isn't it? We know that the perception of persons/ beings follows from many moments of sense and mind door processes. Therefore by this time and before any intentions arise with regard to any `persons', if no sati and panna has arisen to know the moment, much akusala has already arisen and fallen away at the sense door itself, not to mention the mind door. So should we be taking the stories about our so called intentions so seriously? This is not saying that "intention" itself can't be known, it can. But it wouldn't be in the form which we all in our ignorance think it to be. Don't you think that this kind of self referential thinking is no different from what everyone else does? Would applying the Buddha's Dhamma be in this form, which really is no different from say a Christian's or anyone who is interested in ethics? Even they perceive a difference between any two possible actions re: good vs. evil in terms of outcome. But could this be how the Buddha meant us to observe and understand reality / conditionality? Furthermore, intention is only one of the many dhammas involved in any mental, verbal or bodily action. There must be energy, speech / bodily intimation, the jhana factors and more. Amongst these, why give importance particularly to intention? Is it because we are attached to the idea of being able to make choices? What about Root Conditions, is this not important to determine?! And the N8FP, should we not remember that `intention' is not one of these factors? All this however, is not to say that one has no cause to "act" or that one might well grow indifferent. This too would be wrong thinking. "Act" we will, as per our accumulations, good and bad. Only now we understand that whatever motivates us to act, that even this is 'conditioned' and beyond control. Failure to understand this results in following the thoughts identified as `"my" intention'. Yet were intention seen for what it is, there wouldn't be this wrong path taken. Hence you can see that behind all this is Wrong View. And this it appears to me, is reason why those who believe in "doing", they are usually not interested in conditionality. Not only this, but also mention of `seeing', `hearing', `thinking' etc. "Now", this too does not interest them. It seems this latter may in part be because, *now* has arisen and already fallen away and this takes the power away from any idea of control. And this is probably why when some do express their understanding about the present moment, it doesn't come across to me as if they "know" it. This is more than you asked for. But you know me by now. ;-) Metta, Sukinder Ps: I have a good feeling that some of the above is incoherent. My eyes are red, I think you know what it means…. #73698 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/24/2007 7:54:25 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > As you say, not a very important matter perhaps. Again, I think it comes > back to understanding this momentary citta and how it always follows a > previous momentary citta and must be followed by another momentary citta. -------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) You never saw a citta you didn't like, Sarah! LOL! I, however, never saw a citta per se at all. But I have, and am, aware of knowing, of known, of quality of mind - when there is upset, and when there is peace. May we all have more genuine peace. Hi Howard, Sarah, and any believers in sequential cittas, Howard, your above is right on!!!! So many folks in this group speak regularly about "seeing" each citta arising after the previous conditioning citta falls...that this is the key in understanding Buddhism, etc. Not withstanding that the Buddha didn't actually teach this ... do any of these people really "SEE" this??? Or is it just a theory they adhere to. My strong suspicion is it is the latter. It sure smacks of "citta entity view" IMO. But if those folks "REALLY" (and I mean REALLY) "SEE" this, then I have to tip my hat to them (if I was wearing a hat) as they are incredibly more insightful and aware then I am. (Not that that's saying much.) ;-) TG #73699 #73700 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:10 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide lbidd2 Hi again Howard, A correction: intention is chanda, not "cetana" (which is volition). L. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > Larry, you must have much more in mind by 'goal' than I do. For me, I > > fail to see how ever getting to washing the dishes could occur without a goal. > > Breathing occurs without a goal and beating of the heart, but little else, it > > seems to me! ;-) > > > > Larry: What is a goal? I would say it is something more than an immediate intention (cetana). > An intention will get you into an activity (cetanaa), but a goal is something you wish to > achieve: "my goal is to have clean dishes". But a goal is always in the future. So having a goal > is having a future. If you have a future when are you going to have a present? > > Larry > Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (15) #73701 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:27 am Subject: Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) lbidd2 Hi Howard and TG, I can't help chiming in with the obvious: Sarah didn't say anything about "seeing" a citta. Her word was "understanding". Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 6/24/2007 7:54:25 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > > As you say, not a very important matter perhaps. Again, I think it comes > > back to understanding this momentary citta and how it always follows a > > previous momentary citta and must be followed by another momentary citta. > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > ;-)) You never saw a citta you didn't like, Sarah! LOL! > I, however, never saw a citta per se at all. But I have, and am, aware > of knowing, of known, of quality of mind - when there is upset, and when > there is peace. May we all have more genuine peace. > > > > Hi Howard, Sarah, and any believers in sequential cittas, > > Howard, your above is right on!!!! So many folks in this group speak > regularly about "seeing" each citta arising after the previous conditioning citta > falls...that this is the key in understanding Buddhism, etc. Not > withstanding that the Buddha didn't actually teach this ... do any of these people > really "SEE" this??? Or is it just a theory they adhere to. My strong > suspicion is it is the latter. > > It sure smacks of "citta entity view" IMO. > > But if those folks "REALLY" (and I mean REALLY) "SEE" this, then I have to > tip my hat to them (if I was wearing a hat) as they are incredibly more > insightful and aware then I am. (Not that that's saying much.) ;-) > > TG #73702 From: "Robert" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:10 pm Subject: Re: what is sati avalo1968 Hello Sukinder, Nice to hear from you again. Sukinder: Sorry for the delay in responding. Robert A: No problem. There is no need to hurry Here is your previous post to Nidhi, and my reply: Sukinder: sukin: I don't know Nidhi, if you are saying that intention place a decisive role in the development of the Path, then I have to disagree. Robert A: It seems clear to me that, every moment of every day, I am exercising intention - the intention to act with restraint of the senses or the intention to indulge them, the intention to loosen my grip or to tighten it, the intention to respond to someone else's words with metta or with anger. I believe that the choices I make in each of these situations do play a decisive role in my experience of the world and in determining my capacity to see the truth. I presume that you are making the same kind of choices. Haven't you had the same experience that depending on if you make choices that are skillful or unskillful, your experience of the world is different, and isn't that difference significant to the state of your mind and your ability to see things more clearly? Here is your latest reply: Sukinder: S: When there is intention to raise the hand and it does get raised, it is fine at the everyday conventional level, to make the connection and think in terms of the particular relationship. Otherwise what would be the basis for me to think about going out to get food when feeling hungry? Or on the social level, to ask someone to pass me the salt, or to write this post expecting you to read it, if such connections were not at one level valid. But of course we also know that a paralyzed person can't move his limb no matter how much he intends it…. And this is why we should consider more deeply about conditionality. To put it another way, after hearing Dhamma, we come to know that much more goes on behind any thought, speech or action. We see for example, that many cittas have arisen and fallen away before a well defined "thought" is formed. In other words, many, many intentions have taken effect, before we finally come to believe in a particular thought as being representative of our `present' intention. So firstly we are taking for intention what in fact is a "thought", and secondly, we are ignorant of all the dhammas that went just before and during this time. But even if we don't take into account all this, should we not at least acknowledge that the intention itself, is "conditioned"? Robert A: We are fine so far. Sukinder: But actually, the very idea of Satipatthana as being "the" Buddhist practice is so that we come to know this very thing isn't it? We know that the perception of persons/ beings follows from many moments of sense and mind door processes. Therefore by this time and before any intentions arise with regard to any `persons', if no sati and panna has arisen to know the moment, much akusala has already arisen and fallen away at the sense door itself, not to mention the mind door. So should we be taking the stories about our so called intentions so seriously? Robert A: Here is where we diverge. The stories of our so-called intentions can cause a lot of harm and we are wise to take them very seriously. That is why the Buddha devoted one of the 8 divisions of the Noble Eightfold Path to Right Intention - intention based on renunciation, kindness, and compassion. Sukinder: This is not saying that "intention" itself can't be known, it can. But it wouldn't be in the form which we all in our ignorance think it to be. Don't you think that this kind of self referential thinking is no different from what everyone else does? Would applying the Buddha's Dhamma be in this form, which really is no different from say a Christian's or anyone who is interested in ethics? Even they perceive a difference between any two possible actions re: good vs. evil in terms of outcome. But could this be how the Buddha meant us to observe and understand reality / conditionality? Robert A: Where you and I seem to disagree is the linkage between our intentional thoughts, words, and deeds, and our ability to see clearly - to observe and understand reality/conditionality. This capacity is influenced by many things, but to me those things include our intentional thoughts, words, and deeds. Sukinder: Furthermore, intention is only one of the many dhammas involved in any mental, verbal or bodily action. There must be energy, speech / bodily intimation, the jhana factors and more. Amongst these, why give importance particularly to intention? Is it because we are attached to the idea of being able to make choices? What about Root Conditions, is this not important to determine?! And the N8FP, should we not remember that `intention' is not one of these factors? Robert A: Maybe that is our whole misunderstanding, because the intention I am speaking of is the second division of the Noble Eightfold Path, as I said above - Samma Samkappa. Sorry if I mislead you as to what I was talking about. Maybe first we need to see if we can get on the same page. But even if we did I am quite confident we would not agree. On this we will never agree. That is OK. I wish you well with the practice you follow. With metta, Robert #73703 From: "Antony Woods" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 1:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt antony272b2 Dear Sarah, Scott and all, I think that I'll be able to let go of the flashbacks by following the Buddha's instructions. Majjhima 61: "Having done a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html with metta / Antony. PS Nobody replied to my post of May 14th below (it should be added to the Useful Posts ): --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > > Dear Sarah (& Phil, Howard, Scott), > > > Sarah: 'Let them go!' is similar to Phil's 'Don't go there', I think. > > Antony: Yes, `Don't go there' might be more effective. I found the > source, #63680 Sep 06. > > Another memorable use of `Don't go there' from Thanissaro Bhikkhu: > "Because those truths about things outside: you never really know. > There's that whole issue: > "Does the world really exist outside the information we get through > our senses?" > That's one of those issues the Buddha said "Don't Go There!" > What we can know though is what we directly experience in terms of > suffering and stress. You know when the mind is suffering, you can > tell when it's not." > http://www.dhammatalks.org > 4m6s Truth as Medicine.mp3 > > I've been repeatedly reciting whilst facing my Buddha image: > "If by deed, speech or thought, > foolishly I've done wrong, > may all forgive me honored ones > who are in wisdom and compassion strong. > I freely forgive anyone who may have hurt or injured me > I freely forgive myself." > A: I like the word "foolishly". I can't work out why. Don't go there? > > Thanks / Antony. > #73704 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:51 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Humourously swimming in a bottle? dacostacharles Hi Colette, I guess I still can't imagine that being true. Is it that you push people away? After talking to a psychologist about why I can't seem to get a job even though there are lots around me, I discovered I unconsciously push people away from me. Charles DaCosta <...> If you meant an explanation concerning that people deliberately and intentionally avoid any and all contact with me I am simply stating FACTS and OBSERVATIONS. This is how it is, type of thing. #73705 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:58 pm Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > Hello Howard, > > Thank you for this very succinct description of practice. > Hi Robert A (and Howard), Do you also appreciate the description of practice that is found in the Abhidhamma? Right here and now, dhammas are arising performing their functions and falling away. If, in the past, true descriptions of those dhammas have been heard, considered, remembered, and applied, then one of those dhammas might - right here and now in this current trillionth of a second - become the object of right understanding (satipatthana) as taught by the Buddha. Would you agree with me that satipatthana is truly different from the normal concept of practice? Ken H > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote: > > > > ========================== > > As I also see it, one doesn't properly "try to have sati". > One studies > > the Dhamma, pays attention to what is going on "in the moment", > observes sila > > - guarding the senses & exercising restraint - thereby calming the > mind, and > > periodically engages in interior silence and non-dispersion of > attention. And > > should all this, in cooperation with other conditions, bear fruit, > more and > > more often will sati arise. #73706 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 6/24/07 2:01:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Howard, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Larry, you must have much more in mind by 'goal' than I do. For me, I > >fail to see how ever getting to washing the dishes could occur without a > goal. > >Breathing occurs without a goal and beating of the heart, but little else, > it > >seems to me! ;-) > > > > Larry: What is a goal? I would say it is something more than an immediate > intention (cetana). > An intention will get you into an activity (cetanaa), but a goal is > something you wish to > achieve: "my goal is to have clean dishes". But a goal is always in the > future. So having a goal > is having a future. If you have a future when are you going to have a > present? ------------------------------------------ Howard: Now. (Even when what is going on now is planning.) ----------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ===================== With metta, Howard #73707 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:17 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga study guide buddhatrue Hi Larry (and Phil, Howard, et. al), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Larry: What is a goal? I would say it is something more than an immediate > > intention (cetana). > > An intention will get you into an activity (cetanaa), but a goal is > > something you wish to > > achieve: "my goal is to have clean dishes". But a goal is always in the > > future. So having a goal > > is having a future. If you have a future when are you going to have a > > present? I have a few minutes to myself so I am going to respond again to this thread. I think it is a VERY IMPORTANT subject which I shouldn't let wait till the end of summer. Having goals in Buddhist practice is crucial to success. I know that most people consider "goals" antithetical to Buddhist practice, because "goals" are usually invoked for material success rather than spiritual success, but lacking clear goals will make one's spiritual practice sputter and falter. First, let's examine the life of the Buddha. Before his enlightenment he had the goal to end suffering. He didn't know how to do this, but that was his goal. He left the householder life with achieving this goal in mind. He encountered two teachers who didn't help him achieve this goal. He didn't look at these incidents as failures or set-backs; they were more information which he could use to achieve his goal. He practiced austerities to achieve his goal, but that also didn't work. Again, he didn't become disappointed or dejected; he used that information to get him closer to his goal. Finally, he achieved his goal. Then, he re-evaluated and created a new set of goals. His goal then became to teach what he had learned. Then his goal was to establish a Sangha. Then his goal was to spread the Dhamma throughout India. And finally his goal was to enter paranibbana but first to make sure that no one tried to become his "successor" and that the Dhamma itself was his legacy. The Buddha had lots of goals. If he didn't have any goals, we wouldn't be able to benefit from his teaching today. Now, to use a more immediate example, I want to use Phil (I hope he doesn't mind). Phil writes wonderful posts where he reveals his inner-most thoughts, so we can see how his goals have changed during his participation with DSG. First his goal was to amass a great deal of wisdom by studying the teachings of KS, Nina, and the Abhidhamma. He was going to become enlightened or, at the very least, a person of great fame and wisdom who others would come to for knowledge. However, through reflecting on the Buddha's teaching during daily, morning meditation, he eventually realized that his goals were all screwed up. The Buddha taught that one should have the goal of morality first, the goal of mindfulness/concentration second, and the goal of wisdom last. Phil realized that he was trying to bite off much more than he could chew. So, he re-evaluated and changed his goals. Then his immediate goal was to perfect morality first (and not just a superficial morality, but a deep morality of the mind where thoughts, action, and speech are moral). He does this through daily, morning meditation and on-going guarding of the sense door. He also has increased his sense of humility and shed himself of the "conceit of wisdom" (AKA Spiritual Materialism) that KS encourages. Right now, Phil states that he isn't interested in developing satipatthana, jhana, or the higher insight knowledges- just morality. I believe that Phil will achieve success with his practice because he has clearly defined goals and he doesn't become disappointed or dejected by a set-back, he uses that information to move forward or to redefine his goals. As for myself, I also have goals in my Buddhist practice, which I will change and adapt as it becomes necessary. First, my immediate goal, if it isn't obvious enough yet ;-)), is to develop jhana; my short-term goal is to ensure for myself a fortunate rebirth so as to continue practicing the Buddha's teaching; my long term goals are to achieve Nibbana and further spread the teaching of Buddhism. If my parents were to suddenly die and I was able to become a monk, I would change those goals. But, for my current situation, I think these goals are best. Everyone should have goals to their Buddhist practice- and not everyone will have the same goals. If you just study the Buddha's teaching and hope that fate or kamma will make things move/happen in the right direction, you are just fooling yourself. If your goal is just to study then that is all you will accomplish- study. Metta, James p.s. I like the moniker you gave me as "Goal-Oriented-James" LOL!. You might have meant it as an insult (??), but I found it to be a great compliment. #73708 From: "Robert" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:03 pm Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] avalo1968 Hello Ken, You have provided an equally succinct summary of your practice to compare with Howard's: Ken: Do you also appreciate the description of practice that is found in the Abhidhamma? Right here and now, dhammas are arising performing their functions and falling away. If, in the past, true descriptions of those dhammas have been heard, considered, remembered, and applied, then one of those dhammas might - right here and now in this current trillionth of a second - become the object of right understanding (satipatthana) as taught by the Buddha. Would you agree with me that satipatthana is truly different from the normal concept of practice? Robert A: I'm afraid I don't understand it, so it is difficult for me to appreciate it. You have done an admirable job of describing it to me in my time sojourning here at DSG, but I must confess it is still as big a mystery to me as ever. I don't agree with you, but that is OK. So I do appreciate your efforts if not your doctrine. Thank you Robert A. #73709 From: han tun Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 6:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sila Corner - to Han hantun1 Dear Phil and Sarah, I went to Yangon a few days, and now when I am back my computer is out of order. I am typing this message at UN-ESCAP Office. I am sorry I could not write anything at Siila Corner lately, but I am following your discussions. I do not participate in the discussions, not because I think debates are not good. They are, as you said, absolutely valid. The only thing is that I lack the skill in debating. I do not think your appreciation of sutta passages is shallow. I find your discussions useful. I am also in complete agreement with you that even more paramount is guarding the sense doors, and that is where siila is established. I hope to contribute in that topic when I am fully operational. Respectfully, also a biggest fan of yours, Han ------ Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for letting Phil know that I would be away. As my computer is out of order I may not be able to communicate with you again, but I confirm that I will be at the hotel at the appointed time on 4 July. Respectfully, Han #73710 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/24/2007 12:28:59 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard and TG, I can't help chiming in with the obvious: Sarah didn't say anything about "seeing" a citta. Her word was "understanding"Her wo Larry Hi Larry, Howard, Sarah, Understanding what? A Theory? Are not Nina and Sarah repeated speaking about "direct knowledge"? If its understanding a theory that is being proclaimed then its near meaningless as a Path toward freedom. If its "direct knowledge" that's at issue, then "seeing/insight" is what is indicated. These two approaches seem "mucked up" in the presentations I often gather in here. I think the reason is...its the theory that is "known." Its the direct knowledge that needs to be known. But as there is probably no direct knowledge of these so-called "individual cittas" by the proclaimants, they don't really "see" them. So all that can be done is to revert to theory. To continuously claim the importance of knowing, seeing, understanding (what have you) of these "individual cittas" (or "dhammas" for that matter) without knowing such a thing outside of "book-knowledge" seems too far reaching for my taste. If these states are known for sure as FACT by direct experience/knowledge, please lets have a "Lions Roar" (or a "Cats Meow" would suffice.) Why should I believe such "book-copying-knowledge" on this claim on reality over some Christian or Muslim claim based on their "sacred books"? Those Christians and Muslims are 100% convinced they are right. Beats me as to why. Except that people love to grasp after views. I agree with Howard's general statement. (Not reiterated here.) There is awareness, and that it is knowable and discernable as it conditionally responds to varying conditional circumstances. But to claim "minute particle essences" / "dhammas" as being the foundation of those experiences...well...that's way too much detailed SCIENTIFIC speculation for my taste! (And THAT coming from Mr. Science.) ;-) BTW, I know exactly what a "citta" is. Its a "c" followed by a "i" followed by two "t's" followed by a "a". Is a Pali word/term supposed to bring with it some sort of magic hocus-pocus or something? These Pali terms are not clarifying anything IMO. If anything, they are obscuring "real experience" by overlaying a sheathing of "dhammic theory" on top of experiences. Of course it depends on how they are being used. Man, older age is making me blunt! LOL TG #73711 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide lbidd2 Hi James, J: "Having goals in Buddhist practice is crucial to success." L: Don't you ever engage in an activity for its own sake, read a book, go for a walk, practice meditation, translate a bit of pali? To see everything as a means to an end sews things together rather than unravels them. Larry #73712 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) lbidd2 Hi TG, TG: "Man, older age is making me blunt! LOL " L: I'll say. It sounds like righteous indignation. A rant. Probably somewhere in there is hatred accompanied by painful mental feeling. The very quintessence of suffering. Interesting... My only point is that you made a big deal out of accusing Sarah of saying something she didn't say and then generalizing that attitude in a blanket accusation of unnamed others. Abhidhamma counts, 1, 2, 3. So what? Consider it as a learning tool that has been helpful to many people. If it isn't helpful to you, don't worry about it. Larry #73713 From: TGrand458@... Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Larry In a message dated 6/24/2007 8:49:26 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi TG, TG: "Man, older age is making me blunt! LOL " L: I'll say. It sounds like righteous indignation. A rant. Probably somewhere in there is hatred accompanied by painful mental feeling. The very quintessence of suffering. Interesting.ve ................................. NEW TG: Oh come on now! A rant? What did I say that was inaccurate? ...................................... My only point is that you made a big deal out of accusing Sarah of saying something she didn't say and then generalizing that attitude in a blanket accusation of unnamed others. ......................................... NEW TG: So I "accused" Sarah of speaking about direct seeing? That's probably an accusation she can happily live with! LOL ............................................................................ Abhidhamma counts, 1, 2, 3. So what? Consider it as a learning tool that has been helpful to many people. If it isn't helpful to you, don't worry about it. ........................................................ NEW TG: Abhidhamma has been useful for me as well. Some of its commentarial theory, on the other hand, I think is detrimental to those that "follow it." TG OUT #73714 From: "Leo" Date: Sun Jun 24, 2007 9:40 pm Subject: ancient place leoaive Hi I am really interested in ancient Buddha Teaching, that was long time ago, before making any kind of constructions for Buddha. Since ideal of Buddha teaching is uncreated, I really like to visit those places, that are considered as ancient and original path, where not so much of creations and build up. Do you know any places like that or Viharas like that, that are focuced on ancinet way of following Dhamma? Please let me know if you know any place like that. With Metta Leo #73715 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (35) sarahprocter... Hi Connie, (Ven Dhammanando, Scott, all), Apologies in advance for thinking out loud as I go along with this one... --- connie wrote: > Ven D.: Pubbakicca refers to the preparatory tasks identified in Path of > > Purification Ch. III 16, namely, the cutting off of impediments and > development of skill in absorption. > > === > > PPf III 16: Herein, we shall comment below upon the suitable and > unsuitable (Ch. IV, 35f.), the preparatory tasks consisting in the > severing of impediments (Ch. IV, 20), etc., and skill in absorption (Ch. ... S: Thanks for giving this and the other quotes from Vism (#73212). I had checked these when Ven Dhammanando gave the Vism references to pubbakicca, indicating, I think that prior jhana is implied. He also mentioned that in the intro to the Theragatha, that this applies to all the Theras mentioned, as I recall. I mean to bring the point up with K.Sujin. For example, in #73066, you refer to 7 yr old Uttamaa "who was 'taught the Doctrine of insight that is subtle and delicate': aggregates, sense bases and elements...." [S: confused in my haste about your ref. as sometime I put the series aside and find myself reading the installments in the wrong order:-/]. Does this mean that she had also attained mundane jhanas, even though there is no hint of it? I'll leave you to the investigations here....:-)) [Ven Dhammanando, if you're reading and have more to add on this point, I'd be interested and appreciative.] Scott, sometime back in a comment or sutta you gave (which I can't find easily), you referred to consider (pacccavekkhatha or paccavekkha.na) as I recall. I don't believe it was referring to reviewing consciousness as I recall, but it seemed to be much more than conceptual considering....Maybe you can find it. I remember wondering about whether paccavekkha.na is used in other contexts other than paccavekkha.na ~naana... Ah, just looking in Nyantiloka and I see there is a reference to 'paccavekkha.na suddhi 'purity of reflection', "a name for wise consideration in using the 4 requisites allowed in the monk.....". Perhaps this is what your other reference was to? In #73206 we had this from the Pruitt text: "cy txt: Tattha citta.m upa.t.thapetvaanaati bhaavanaacitta.m kamma.t.thaane upa.t.thapetvaa. Katha.m? Ekagga.m susamaahita.m paccavekkhathaati pa.tipatti.m avekkhatha, sa"nkhaare aniccaatipi, dukkhaatipi, anattaatipi lakkha.nattaya.m vipassathaati attho. Ida~nca ovaadakaale attano a~n~nesa~nca bhikkhuniina.m theriyaadiina.m ovaadassa anuvaadavasena vutta.m. Pruitt: 177. There, summoning up (upa.t.thapetvaana) the mind (citta.m) means: summoning up (upa.t.thapetvaa) development of the mind (bhaavanaa-citta.m) through the subject of meditation. How? [Through being] intent and well concentrated.* Consider (paccavekkhatha) means: observe the practice; develop insight into the three characteristics, namely that the formations are impermanent, misery and no-self. And this was said at the time of instruction as an admonition for her and other bhikkhunis and theriis, etc. *Compare the remarks on "summoning up mindfulness" in the commentary below on v. 182 (p. 209)" ... S: I haven't checked the last note, as it's not in the same installment. I think here that paccavekkhatha has to refer to 'having reviewed the path, insights, characteristics of sankhara dhammas etc', i.e. to be referring to the post-lokuttara reviewing consciousness. Any comments? Again, I'm looking at the installment on its own which isn't a wise way to study it. A little later... Now looking at #73243 where the text has a reference to paccavekkha.naa~naa.na in 'now I have done my duty regarding the 19 kinds of reviweing knowledge' - Uttaraa therii's reviewing after attaining arahatship with the 4 discriminations. Mrs R-D missed the mark in her guess, btw, on how the '19' is reached. CMA, (ch 1X, Guide to 34) to the rescue: "After each of the four supramundane path attainments, the disciple reviews the path, fruition, and Nibbana; usually, but not invariabley, he reviews as well the defilements abandoned and the defilements remaining. Thus there are a maximum of nineteen kinds of reviewing knowledge; five each for each of the first three paths, and four for the final path. This is because an Arahant, who is fully liberated, had no more defilements remaining to be reviewed." [Side-note on translations: #73085, Bodhi has Vijayaa 'sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding', while Mrs RD has her 'sat down.....for siesta'!! Go to the roots and see what conditions have in store:-) Metta, Sarah ======= #73716 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] kenhowardau Hi Robert, > Robert A: > I'm afraid I don't understand it, so it is difficult for me to > appreciate it. You have done an admirable job of describing it to > me in my time sojourning here at DSG, but I must confess it is still > as big a mystery to me as ever. I don't agree with you, but that is > OK. > > So I do appreciate your efforts if not your doctrine. > Thanks, but you may be reading too much into what I wrote. I won't deny the Dhamma is difficult, but I think my brief description of it should be simple enough to follow (if not agree with). There are only dhammas. Therefore, practice (satipatthana) can only be done by dhammas. Do we agree on that? If we do agree, we can go on to discuss exactly what kind of practice dhammas would engage in. As I see it, it could only be a present- moment practice, but you might envisage something that takes place in the future. I would like to know your thoughts. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > Hello Ken, > > You have provided an equally succinct summary of your practice to > compare with Howard's: > > Ken: > Do you also appreciate the description of practice that is found in > the Abhidhamma? Right here and now, dhammas are arising performing > their functions and falling away. If, in the past, true descriptions > of those dhammas have been heard, considered, remembered, and > applied, then one of those dhammas might - right here and now in this > current trillionth of a second - become the object of right > understanding (satipatthana) as taught by the Buddha. > > Would you agree with me that satipatthana is truly different from > the normal concept of practice? > #73717 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (57) sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Connie & all), Weren't you asking for Theravada references to 'the sword of knowledge' a little while back? How about this at the end of the Therii Vijayaa section (#73111) --- connie wrote: > > dear friends, > Vijayaa, part 3: > 174. With joy and happiness (piiti-sukhena) means: happiness (sukena) > and > joy (piitiyaa) that is accompanied by the attainment of the fruition > state. The body (kaaya.m) means: the mental body (naama-kaaya.m) > associated with that [joy and happiness] and as a consequence of that > [mental body], the material body (ruupa-kaaya.m). Suffusing means: > suffusing or pervading. On the seventh day (sattamiyaa), I stretched > forth > my feet means: seven days after I began [developing] insight, I > abandoned > my cross-legged position, I stretched forth my feet. Having torn asunder > (padaaliya) the mass of darkness [of ignorance] (tamo-khanda.m) in what > way? Having torn asunder (padaaletvaa) the mass of delusion > (moha-kkhandha.m) not previously torn asunder ***with the sword of the > knowledge of the highest path***. The meaning of the rest has been > explained > already. > Here ends the commentary on the verses by Therii Vijayaa. ..... [> Piitisukhenaati phalasamaapattipariyaapannaaya piitiyaa sukhena ca. > Kaayanti ta.msampayutta.m naamakaaya.m tadanusaarena ruupakaaya~nca. > Pharitvaati phusitvaa byaapetvaa vaa. Sattamiyaa paade pasaaresinti > vipassanaaya aaraddhadivasato sattamiya.m palla"nka.m bhinditvaa paade > pasaaresi.m. Katha.m? Tamokhandha.m padaaliya, appadaalitapubba.m > mohakkhandha.m aggamagga~naa.naasinaa padaaletvaa. Sesa.m he.t.thaa > vuttanayameva. > Vijayaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa.] .... S: I think the reference to the joy and happiness with the 'abiding in fruition' (phalasamaapatti) is interesting. (This is only possible for anagamis and arahants who became enlightened with jhana as basis). Many thanks Connie, for all your hard work. I really appreciate it, even though I tend to run behind.....puff, puff.... Metta, Sarah ======== #73718 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:08 am Subject: Re: ancient place scottduncan2 Dear Leo, Thanks for the reflection: L: "I am really interested in ancient Buddha Teaching, that was long time ago, before making any kind of constructions for Buddha. Since ideal of Buddha teaching is uncreated, I really like to visit those places, that are considered as ancient and original path, where not so much of creations and build up. Do you know any places like that or Viharas like that, that are focuced on ancinet way of following Dhamma? Please let me know if you know any place like that." I had this thought: The Path arises and falls away. That precise moment of consciousness is also the Visitor. At the moment the Path arises, the Visitor arrives. It would be only a brief but powerful visit, I have heard. Taking the word 'vihaara' in one of its senses, that of 'condition of life', then this Ancient Way can be visited at the moment of the Path. This would be an excellent place to visit. What do you think of this thought I had? Sincerely, Scott #73719 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (57) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/25/07 7:46:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard (Connie &all), > > Weren't you asking for Theravada references to 'the sword of knowledge' a > little while back? > > How about this at the end of the Therii Vijayaa section (#73111) > > --- connie wrote: > > > > >dear friends, > > Vijayaa, part 3: > > >174. With joy and happiness (piiti-sukhena) means: happiness (sukena) > >and > >joy (piitiyaa) that is accompanied by the attainment of the fruition > >state. The body (kaaya.m) means: the mental body (naama-kaaya.m) > >associated with that [joy and happiness] and as a consequence of that > >[mental body], the material body (ruupa-kaaya.m). Suffusing means: > >suffusing or pervading. On the seventh day (sattamiyaa), I stretched > >forth > >my feet means: seven days after I began [developing] insight, I > >abandoned > >my cross-legged position, I stretched forth my feet. Having torn asunder > >(padaaliya) the mass of darkness [of ignorance] (tamo-khanda.m) in what > >way? Having torn asunder (padaaletvaa) the mass of delusion > >(moha-kkhandha.m) not previously torn asunder ***with the sword of the > >knowledge of the highest path***. The meaning of the rest has been > >explained > >already. > > Here ends the commentary on the verses by Therii Vijayaa. > ======================== Yes, good! Thanks for pointing that out. I'm glad to see it in Theravada. It is a wonderful simile, I think. Do you suppose there is also a sutta reference somewhere, a mention by the Buddha himself, or maybe Sariputta? With metta, Howard #73720 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:44 am Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] avalo1968 Hello Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Thanks, but you may be reading too much into what I wrote. I won't > deny the Dhamma is difficult, but I think my brief description of it > should be simple enough to follow (if not agree with). > > There are only dhammas. Therefore, practice (satipatthana) can only > be done by dhammas. > > Do we agree on that? > > If we do agree, we can go on to discuss exactly what kind of practice > dhammas would engage in. As I see it, it could only be a present- > moment practice, but you might envisage something that takes place in > the future. I would like to know your thoughts. > > Ken H > > This again highlights the difference between your approach and mine. I believe I should work with my direct experience of life, whatever it is. Is dhammas something you experience, even as they are arising and passing away in a trillionth of a second? My experience of life is more at the greed, hatred, and delusion level, so that is where I work. When I study the Dhamma, I find plenty of teachings that I can see directly at work in my life. That is when I find study and hearing the Dhamma of use. Maybe in about a million lifetimes I will have graduated to the Abhidhamma, but at the moment I find the Dhammapada more useful. Perhaps your mind already is able to see clearly without the calming and stabilizing work of meditation, and if so, wonderful. My mind is definitely not and I benefit greatly from what Sarah quaintly refers to as "sitting quietly". So that is why we will never agree. Our experience of practice is totally different. I wish you well Ken. With metta, Robert A. #73721 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:52 am Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] avalo1968 Hello Ken, One more note. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > Thanks, but you may be reading too much into what I wrote. I won't > deny the Dhamma is difficult, but I think my brief description of it > should be simple enough to follow (if not agree with). > The Dhamma can actually be quite straightforward, provided you work at the level of your experience. Robert A. #73722 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Humourously swimming in a bottle? ksheri3 Good Morning Charles, That can be true but you have to keep in context that those teachings are from a psychologist/psychiatrist's POV (point of view) thus the teachings have a goal orientation to them. Is the goal you seek the same as the goal that this "head shrinker" seeks? What you speak of though is very effective to recognize the meditative state. Take for instance myslef, I push people away from what THEY "perceive". This is how they interpret what I say, do, appearance, actions, everything, because these people have their world pre-ORDERED, pre- ORDAINED, they live in a prison. Their world is totally controlled by others outside of their vessel. gots to go. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Colette, > > > > I guess I still can't imagine that being true. Is it that you push people > away? After talking to a psychologist about why I can't seem to get a job > even though there are lots around me, I discovered I unconsciously push > people away from me. > > > > Charles DaCosta > > _____ > > From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colette > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2007 23:07 > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Humourously swimming in a bottle? > <...> > If you meant an explanation concerning that people deliberately and > intentionally avoid any and all contact with me I am simply stating > FACTS and OBSERVATIONS. This is how it is, type of thing. > > toodles, > colette > > <...> > #73723 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] rameshat27 Dear Sarah,Jon and Nina... *Sorry for the late reply as there is huge raining in mumbai..breaking all the net connections...so able to reply today only..as today get the net connectivity!!!* "S:-"[How one responds] depends on the different accumulations. ..... KS: Usually we should have a steady mind, ready to experience any reality,no matter it's unpleasant or pleasant, because there is nothing, just the experiencing and the object that's all, nothing more than that. " R:-Definitely everyone responds depends on the different accumulations ..and we should have a steady mind, ready to experience any reality...very well said. It is always matter for everyone it's unpleasant or pleasant. But because of this we increased our own miseries in terms of clinging or hate..yes nicely explained so why to matter for unpleasant or pleasant..as the truth is that there is nothing...so just to experience as an object that's all, nothing more than that...really a great explanation..but difficult to live and implement.. ********************************************************************************\ ************ "S:-So in terms of reality, one can see that, while one still clings by memory to whatever has happened which has already gone,[it's] no use! So one can see one's own clinging and one's own kilesa. " R:-Yes, It is really true that in reality one can find he/she still clings by memory to whatever has happened which has already gone...and really it's of no use...So really it is imp to see one's own clinging..nicely explained but difficult to implement..sometime if great impact of some things which r really odd one on he/she, still clings by memory !!The sufferer also knows that he/she is suffering bcz of clinging but still he/she failed to over come as the impact is grt! ********************************************************************************\ ************ "S:-He might be smiling now, feeling so happy. Why should we be sorry since we don't know. What one knows exactly is that all realities arise and fall away. That's it! It doesn't belong to 'his' or 'her'. That's why the teachings save us from all akusala, no matter how strong it is or how subtle it is. Reality is reality anyway." R:-EveryOne knows that all realities arise and fall away.As What is happening around is not belong to 'his' or 'her'.So it doesn't matter how strong it is or how subtle it is. That's it!Yes true..but still everyone bound to some feeling in terms of clinging or hate..so get difficulty..to over come.. ********************************************************************************\ ************ "KS: Yes, yes, but [we] cannot help having this feeling as long as panna is not strong enough. That's why there should be the development of panna as much by reading, listening, thinking and being aware of reality. Otherwise one knows theoretically, but when it happens, the ignorance is there. We take it so seriously! " R:- Yes this is the remedy on all this..I get it..that we cannot help having this feeling as long as panna is not strong enough. So we must develop our panna...yaa great ...everyone knows theoretically what is right and wrong, but when something happens, the ignorance always is there..and always we take it seriously...very true...great explanation!! ********************************************************************************\ ****** KS:-"Actually who can help the moment of the arising and falling away of that which arises? It's like this moment in terms of not being able to stop it.It means that if one tries, one tries to stop the arising and falling away of this moment." R:-Yes definitely true that the arising and falling away of any moment can not be stopped!!So we must developed our panna as much as by reading, listening, thinking and being aware of reality, which is the great remedy on all sufferings.. ********************************************************************************\ ****** Yaa Dear Sarah...very very nice discussion u had sent. From every point..I get too much knowledge..and find that how much wrong things generally have...It is really exceptional..but I got so much from it...In every discussion getting so much things .......Great! ********************************************************************************\ ****** metta ****** ramesh *=======* #73724 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:18 pm Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] kenhowardau Hi Robert, I sometimes try to convince Phil (among others) to leave self out of Dhamma study. It should be a matter of finding out what the Buddha taught. But people want to create their own Dhamma and say: "This is my version. This is what makes sense to me, and I choose to believe it is what the Buddha taught." If you studied mathematics at school you would not be encouraged to say, "For the more advanced students 2 plus 2 might equal 4, but I am content to believe it equals 3." That is not the way to learn mathematics. Why should Dhamma study be any different? We should listen to what we are being told and consider it carefully. Eventually it might make sense to us, but that is not the decisive factor. The Dhamma will remain the same whether it makes sense to us or not. Sorry if these remarks don't really apply to you, Robert. I'm just letting off a bit of steam. :-) I'll go back and have another look at your main reply. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > Hello Ken, > > One more note. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > > > Hi Robert, > > > > Thanks, but you may be reading too much into what I wrote. I won't > > deny the Dhamma is difficult, but I think my brief description of it > > should be simple enough to follow (if not agree with). > > > > The Dhamma can actually be quite straightforward, provided you work at > the level of your experience. > > Robert A. > #73725 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? jonoabb Hi Phil I know you've signed off except for occasional chip-ins, but I wanted to add a couple of further thoughts on dana, sila and samatha as aspects of the development of the path taught by the Buddha. Phil wrote: > Hi Jon and all > > ... > Yes, right. Of course we've been here before. My contention is > that giving less rein to the tendencies in this lifetime will > condition less freedom for them to run amok in future lives. I know > this is not guaranteed. I'm interested in probabilities. You are > interested in the liberating power of developing understanding of > presently arising dhammas, but I do not believe in that, not yet, > not know. It's not stage by stage, you'll say, but I think it is, > based on the many suttas that get at a progression from sila to > samadhi to understanding, and other such progressions. There is too > much evidence there for me to ignore. So we'll have to agree to > disagree there. > Obviously the development of all kinds of kusala was exhorted by the Buddha. But on my reading of the texts, when the Buddha extols the development of dana, sila or samatha he tends to do so by reference to the (contemporaneous) development of satipatthana. That is to say, in the suttas that talk about the development of these levels of kusala there is also reference to the development of satipatthana. I think there is a clear reason for this. Dana, sila and samatha, although of great merit, do not in and of themselves lead out of samsara. A practice of the development of these forms of kusala in isolation of the development of satipatthana (for example, in a person who had never heard the teachings) would likely bring with it an increase in the idea of a self who was developing greater kusala, i.e., more wrong view. That is why in order for these other forms of kusala to become more purified, the development of satipatthana is required. And this must be contemporaneous rather than sequential, for obvious reasons I think. You mention future lives, and this is no doubt a big concern for you. But the best rebirth is one in which we get to hear the teachings again, as we have had the good fortune to do in this present life, and the best condition for this is an interest in those aspects of the teachings that are unique to a Buddha. A practice that is focussed on leading a life of fewer transgressions through body and speech doesn't qualify in this regard! An appreciation of the importance of the development of understanding surely does. Perhaps we underestimate the power of kusala of the level of satipatthana (or the relative dangers of wrong view vs. other forms of aksuala). The supremacy of insight over all other forms of kusala is emphasised in the suttas. The corollary to this is the extreme danger of wrong view as compared to all the other forms of akusala. Jon PS The first part of MN 19, the sutta you refer to later in your post, describes the bodhisatta's mental development prior to his attainment of enlightenment. This means that any 'practice' being described in that part is not satipatthana. #73726 From: Rendal Mercer Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 5555 renmercer These are all Ultimate Proclammated Fact presented in theory formate. All coming from someone elses experience. Translators will know this for sure, that when ever you translate anything there is alway going to be meaning missing. The translation functions to bring what was felt, "seen" and/or experienc"ed" back into the present to show/ explain for others to sort of understand or experience. Truely not posssible and the best that we can do to build a measure in insight is to sit, watch and listen. How much sitting, just simply watching and listening have we been doing. I never come out here but I like to watch what people say about this and that. Good luck to you all.. ren #73727 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:44 pm Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga study guide buddhatrue Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi James, > > J: "Having goals in Buddhist practice is crucial to success." > > L: Don't you ever engage in an activity for its own sake, read a book, > go for a walk, practice meditation, translate a bit of pali? To see > everything as a means to an end sews things together rather than > unravels them. > > Larry > Engage in an activity for its own sake??? This sounds like some sort of New Age philosophy, not something the Buddha taught. Did the Buddha ever teach to practice satipatthana/jhana just for its own sake? I don't think that is what he taught at all. As I wrote, most people associate goals with material achievements, but spiritual achievements are also goals: Detachment is a goal. Purification of the mind is a goal. Purification of sila is a goal. Inner peace is a goal. Insight knowledge is a goal. Nibbana is a goal. The Four Noble Truths are written as a mission statement with a specific goal in mind: Life is suffering; suffering is caused by craving; there is a way to end this suffering; practice of the Noble Eightfold Path is a means to end suffering. Everything the Buddha taught is goal-oriented. The Buddha never taught to "do something for its own sake", that is New Age philosophy or misinterpreted Zen. As for your Vism. series, I wrote quite a while ago that I found it to be useful (One suggestion: I would like to see somewhat larger sections from the Vism. quoted, as brief sections tend to lose the overall meaning). However, if the project has no goal to you whatsoever, then I think you should abandon it. Are you doing it just because someone asked you to? Are you robot? Are you a slave? You should only do something if you think it is going to be of benefit to you and others, otherwise you are wasting your time. The Dhamma is not about wasting time! Metta, James #73728 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? philofillet Hi Jon > I know you've signed off except for occasional chip-ins, Yes, there are already several psots to you and Sarah that are in the queue, and one to Sukin, who I do want to write to. DSG always snowballs because I always fail to keep my mouth shut! > > Obviously the development of all kinds of kusala was exhorted by the > Buddha. But on my reading of the texts, when the Buddha extols the > development of dana, sila or samatha he tends to do so by reference to > the (contemporaneous) development of satipatthana. "Every word in the tipitaka is about developing understanding of present realities." How often did I hear AS say something like that. Even when I was listening to her I disagreed, and more so now. I think it is a myth to say that there are not suttas that are all about very conventional topics. I think forcing the paramattha into one's reading of them is just forcing paramattha into things. But I could certainly be wrong. But I could also be right. > That is to say, in > the suttas that talk about the development of these levels of kusala > there is also reference to the development of satipatthana. Well, I guess one has to read the full commentaries to find this reference. There is certainly no reference to satipatthana in some of the suttas I am thinking of. > > I think there is a clear reason for this. Dana, sila and samatha, > although of great merit, do not in and of themselves lead out of > samsara. Right. As I have posted many times, they help to provide conditions for deeper understanding. That is laid out very clearly in so many suttas. A practice of the development of these forms of kusala in > isolation of the development of satipatthana (for example, in a person > who had never heard the teachings) would likely bring with it an > increase in the idea of a self who was developing greater kusala, i.e., > more wrong view. Right. Fortunately I have heard the teaching, and know where the path must lead. But I refuse to try to get ahead by forcing paramattha level understanding into my practice just because it is necessary for real liberation. That is just impatience. I find it really ironic that AS talks about people being impatient. An excessive interest in deep topics such as bhavanga cittas, to give one example, is nothing but impatience and excessive desire for penetrating wisdom, in my opinion. Good to know about such things, but to believe that seeing into them, or momentary cittas of any kind, has immediate relevance to one's practice is impatience, in my experience. Not for you? Fine. > > That is why in order for these other forms of kusala to become more > purified, the development of satipatthana is required. And this must be > contemporaneous rather than sequential, for obvious reasons I think. Yes, eventually. The Kusala must be purified. No rushing that. > > You mention future lives, and this is no doubt a big concern for you. > But the best rebirth is one in which we get to hear the teachings again, > as we have had the good fortune to do in this present life, and the best > condition for this is an interest in those aspects of the teachings that > are unique to a Buddha. Even at the conceptual level the Buddha's teaching is unique. No other religion gets at such consistent, methodic training of the mind to drop the unwholesome and develop wholesome thoughts. I feel fortunate to have had my life changed so dramatically by even a shallow understanding of the Buddha's teaching. AS students think that they have tapped into something that all other Buddhists have been deprived of, I guess, the "true Dhamma." I used to use that phrase quite easily. Thank Buddha I don't anymore! :) A practice that is focussed on leading a life > of fewer transgressions through body and speech doesn't qualify in this > regard! An appreciation of the importance of the development of > understanding surely does. Again, non-remorse helps for conditions for deeper understanding.I have said *so many times* that I know an emphasis on sila of the conceptual level is *not* an end in itself Jon! Please note that. And though I may not sound like it these days I still have an "appreciation of the importance of the development of understanding." I think it's more real than it was before becuase I'm not trying to rush understanding like I did when I listened to Acharn Sujin. > > Perhaps we underestimate the power of kusala of the level of > satipatthana (or the relative dangers of wrong view vs. other forms of > aksuala). The supremacy of insight over all other forms of kusala is > emphasised in the suttas. The corollary to this is the extreme danger > of wrong view as compared to all the other forms of akusala. Jeez, I feel like I have to say the same things a hundred times.Fair enough. The kind of "wrong view" that is said to be the extreme danger is not believing in kamma, not believing that deeds have results, and other basic forms. The Buddha does not say that *not* having the right view that is mundane right view is the extreme danger. You can't treat that as an extreme danger or you will rush things, as Achan Sujin seeks to do. Getting out of samsara can't be rushed. For all the talk of "aeons" I believe you and Acharn Sujin and others are so eager for sotapanna that you are rushing things. I will *not* try to have the right view of the sotapanna! That is what she is always telling people to do when she warns of "wrong view" I think. On the other hand, when you and others talk about having into any object, whether it is akusala or not being paramount, I think you flirt with the really dangerous wrong view. The sexiness of panna that sees into wrong deeds somehow negating the impact of them, or something like that. The failure to emphasize precepts because of clinging to self or desire for results involved in emphasizing precepts. That is wrong view, in my opinion. I got into serious trouble a couple of years ago because I wasn't emphasizing keeping precepts because it was oh so cool to think of having wisdom that was more important than just keeping the precepts, no matter what. Now I keep the precepts, or strive to. That is right view for people like me. (And you, and everyone here, if you ask me.) You've unleashed a little torrent. I think Sarah and you really tend to write things that prompt me to reply, adding to the snowball, but fair enough. A few days ago I tried to find another forum where I could discuss Dhamma without so many deep topics, but really, DSG is the best Dhamma forum, and I'm really grateful for it. Metta, Phil > Jon > > PS The first part of MN 19, the sutta you refer to later in your post, > describes the bodhisatta's mental development prior to his attainment of > enlightenment. This means that any 'practice' being described in that > part is not satipatthana. Ph: I will listen to Bhikkhu Bodhi on MN 19 before I listen to you or AS on it. Is it not relevant because it is about the bodhisatta before his enlightenment. In an hour long talk encouraging us to apply the sutta to our lives BB doesn't say anything like that. The sutta means what it says, according to him. We train the mind to drop unwholesome thoughts and train it to stick to wholesome thoughts, to a certain extent before droppping them as well. I am more interested in the former. The "don't go there"aspect of Dhamma that is undeniable. If this is not the deeper understanding of the sutta, so be it, for now. Staying in touch with people like you at DSG will keep me in touch with a deeper interpretation that might become relevant to me someday. #73729 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:52 pm Subject: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) philofillet Hi all Jon wrote to me: > The corollary to this is the extreme danger > of wrong view as compared to all the other forms of akusala. We're always hearing about this extreme danger that is wrong view. Again, as I did before, I just looked up "wrong view" in the index of my MN anthology, and from what I see from a quick look, the wrong view is *not* about such things as failure to see that there is self self involved in one's practice etc. The wrong view that AS warns about all the time is not the extremely dangerourous wrong view that the Buddha warns about - at least as far as I can see so far. My study project may show me otherwise. As a project to clarify this (for myself at least) once and for all I am going to methodically go through the MN and SN anthologies and type out each and every reference to wrong view as indicated by the index. I won't be commenting, just typing. :) Metta, Phil #73730 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide lbidd2 Hi James, J: "Engage in an activity for its own sake??? This sounds like some sort of New Age philosophy, not something the Buddha taught. Did the Buddha ever teach to practice satipatthana/jhana just for its own sake? I don't think that is what he taught at all." L: I don't know if my actions were in conformity with the dhamma or not. I typed out the paragraphs because I enjoyed it, found it a good way to study, and wanted to share that. I didn't do it to accomplish something. I did it because I liked it and thought it was a good thing to do in and of itself. If it is useless because I didn't have a goal, so be it. Larry #73731 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Phil, P: "As a project to clarify this (for myself at least) once and for all I am going to methodically go through the MN and SN anthologies and type out each and every reference to wrong view as indicated by the index." L: Sounds like a good way to go about it. I assume you aren't going to type out whole suttas, so a few words for context would be appreciated. Larry #73732 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:25 pm Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? philofillet Hi Jon and all A couple of clarifications from my typos. > The Buddha does not say that > *not* having the right view that is mundane right view is the > extreme danger. Should be "suprmundane right view." > > On the other hand, when you and others talk about having into any > object, whether it is akusala or not being paramount, I think you > flirt with the really dangerous wrong view. Should be "having insight into any object" Metta, Phil #73733 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) philofillet Hi Larry Right, I'll type out the cited passages. Usually BB idenitifies them by one paragraph (verse?) number. I'm sure already it will be said that this is insufficient, that the full commentaries are necessary etc, but I think it'll be sufficient for me, at least. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > P: "As a project to clarify this (for myself at least) once and for all > I am going to methodically go through the MN and SN anthologies and type > out each and every reference to wrong view as indicated by the index." > > L: Sounds like a good way to go about it. I assume you aren't going to > type out whole suttas, so a few words for context would be appreciated. > > Larry > #73734 From: "Robert" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:06 pm Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] avalo1968 Hello Ken, Here is what I said: Robert A: The Dhamma can actually be quite straightforward, provided you work at the level of your experience. Your reply: Ken: I sometimes try to convince Phil (among others) to leave self out of Dhamma study. It should be a matter of finding out what the Buddha taught. But people want to create their own Dhamma and say: "This is my version. This is what makes sense to me, and I choose to believe it is what the Buddha taught." If you studied mathematics at school you would not be encouraged to say, "For the more advanced students 2 plus 2 might equal 4, but I am content to believe it equals 3." That is not the way to learn mathematics. Why should Dhamma study be any different? We should listen to what we are being told and consider it carefully. Eventually it might make sense to us, but that is not the decisive factor. The Dhamma will remain the same whether it makes sense to us or not. Sorry if these remarks don't really apply to you, Robert. I'm just letting off a bit of steam. :-) I'll go back and have another look at your main reply. Robert A: I never was very good at math. Maybe now I know why. Thanks for the tip. Robert A. #73735 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:14 pm Subject: Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] philofillet Hi Ken > I sometimes try to convince Phil (among others) to leave self out of > Dhamma study. It should be a matter of finding out what the Buddha > taught. But people want to create their own Dhamma and say: "This is > my version. This is what makes sense to me, and I choose to believe > it is what the Buddha taught." This not what I say Ken. As I have said many times, I am guided these days by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Nyanaponika Thera (author of "Heart of Buddhist Meditation") and several Burmese Sayadaws. I am not a lone wolf devouring suttas and turning them into what I want to be, though I am sure there is an element of that. I see the way my experience of life is influenced by the suttas, and that increases my confidence in them. It is experience tested, life tested, and that's the way the Buddha taught it to be. (See Kalama sutta.) Are you able to experience seeing momentary cittas? I really doubt it. Therefore, your approach to Dhamma is not confirmed by experience and is therefore not a wise way to go, I think. I used to feel differently. What is examined experience worth if it is all lobha seeking comfort, seeking reassurance for self? However, I have seen dramatic changes in my life and my way of thinking, wholesome shifting of mental tendencies, behavioural tendencies and I now refuse to write them off because of the above-mentionned concerns of the horrible, horrible "wrong view" of clinging to self involved in my movement deeper (gradually, slightly) In the future, if you are summarizing my views as you see them (incorrectly in this case) please include me in the greeting. I just happened to see this one. Thanks. James did that the other day when he summarized my views as he seems them, so I was able to read it. Not that it really matters what people say about me, as long as they do it in a kind way so they don't create bad kamma for themselves. You are always pretty kind, I think, so it doesn't matter. Metta, Phil > If you studied mathematics at school you would not be encouraged to > say, "For the more advanced students 2 plus 2 might equal 4, but I am > content to believe it equals 3." > > That is not the way to learn mathematics. Why should Dhamma study be > any different? We should listen to what we are being told and > consider it carefully. Eventually it might make sense to us, but that > is not the decisive factor. The Dhamma will remain the same whether > it makes sense to us or not. > > Sorry if these remarks don't really apply to you, Robert. I'm just > letting off a bit of steam. :-) I'll go back and have another look at > your main reply. > > Ken H > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" > wrote: > > > > Hello Ken, > > > > One more note. > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Robert, > > > > > > Thanks, but you may be reading too much into what I wrote. I > won't > > > deny the Dhamma is difficult, but I think my brief description of > it > > > should be simple enough to follow (if not agree with). > > > > > > > The Dhamma can actually be quite straightforward, provided you work > at > > the level of your experience. > > > > Robert A. > > > #73736 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:30 pm Subject: Re: what is sati sukinderpal Hi Nidhi, I get the impression that you were somewhat irritated by my remarks about other religion / religious teachers, and also meditation. When I make a statement of judgment against others, it is mostly with regard to "view", so it should not be taken personally. That said, I'll happily admit to being nowhere close to those religious teachers in terms of other forms of kusala, and I do admire them for certain qualities. ====================== > sukin: Yes. But I am not sure to what extent we agree. In another post > you talked about experiencing something that in your opinion was > similar to what people like Krishnamurti, Kabir and Nanak experienced > and understood. Are you saying that these people knew about and > developed vipassana? If not, what are the similarity / difference > between the Buddha's Path and any other. Do you think there is any > other practice which could lead to more or less the same goal as > Satipatthana? *********************** Nidhi: See, all the people who became saints were people whose heart was more purified than us. So, what makes the heart purified. This is an art, which can be explained therotically as well(I have talked enough about it in lots of other posts), but it is a practical thing. Suk: Are you referring to those statements about how Sati deals with defilements during meditation? If so, it didn't say much, and came across as just personal opinion backed up by claim to having seen it happen. If it made sense and / or agreed with what the Theravada teachings state, I might have given it more importance, but it doesn't…… ================== Nidhi: Without exception there is no saint who hasn't talked about it. so they were purified people, 'the saints'. The level of insight differs in all saints. Suk: You claim that these people , Kabir, Krishnamurti, Nanak, Mahavir, Christ and so on, are "saints", which would make them Sotapanna and up, this too doesn't match with my understanding of the Dhamma. Insight / Vipassana is unique to the Buddha's Dhamma. That one Sammasambuddha arises in kappas, reflects the fact that it is not so easy to enlighten upon the Four Noble Truths, hence the Eightfold Path. As much as I know, Nanak, Krishnamurti and also Mahavir, these three came across the Buddhadhamma. It makes sense to me that anyone who truly understands the Dhamma, unless he is a Bodhisatta, will straight away become a Savaka. If Nanak, Krishnamurti and Mahavir had really understood the Dhamma, they would take refuge in the Triple Gem and *never* seek and teach any other teachings. ================== Nidhi: I regard that buddha went the farthest, he went beyond consciousness, i am not sure about this with regard to other saints. But they all knew about the path of purification. It is one for all. Suk: This seems to be quite a common idea amongst certain New Age groups. To me it is nothing but big opportunity for them to project their perverted / romantic views, akin to beliefs such as "all paths lead to the same goal". From my perspective, the subtlety of Dhamma reflects the fact that only the right cause can lead to the right result. Hence the 8FP is considered the Middle Way, and on either side of this are the 62 different ways of going *wrong*, some of which can be made to sound like the Dhamma, and which is where I believe, many Buddhists come from. ;-) ================== Nidhi: All the saints have talked about the same thing as long as the way of purification is concerned. They used different words depending upon what language they know. I happen to understand it by chance. From that day I understand what the saint is saying. Suk: No, they haven't! And of course I go beyond the words, we all do, the 4NT is the 4NT by any other name. The N8FP is the only reality capable of leading to this understanding and you can all it anything. However it does have unmistakable characteristic, function and cause, which clearly is not apparent in any other teachings, at least not in those we have so far mentioned. Krishnamurti who seem to be quite insightful (conventionally speaking), when it came to recognizing the limitations of self directed practices, still came to believe in some power / love interconnecting all beings. Nanak, he too was quite perceptive in recognizing rites and rituals and had the courage to speak out against it. However he believed in Karma yet also in a unifying force / consciousness which each individual could do well to understand and "identify" with. Mahavir, I don't know much about, but the Jain practice of being concerned about stepping on insects etc. seem just plain silly to me. Nidhi, do you happen to believe that all teachings, including the Dhamma, are more or less psychological techniques meant to orient the mind towards overcoming ego or some such? ================== Nidhi: Doing it is very very difficult, one needs very strong viriya parami. I have explained the fourth noble truth in lots of messages of mine. But if one tries to find it in books one might not find in aeons. Suk: I think that you do not yet understand what some of us mean when we talk about pariyatti / intellectual understanding. Like many others, you seem to reduce it to `theoretical knowledge'. But this is not what we mean or aim for when it is stressed that reading, listening and discussing are very important. I truly believe that it is precisely due to the lack of Right Understanding at the level of listening, that ideas about `formal practice' so common amongst Buddhists and non Buddhists alike, originates and thrives. Right understanding of Dhamma at the level of Suttamaya panna and Cintamaya panna will *not* give rise to ideas of practice as is commonly held. One symptom of this is the constant downplaying by some, of the need to keep developing the understanding at the pariyatti level. I think even Nanak saw the value of "listening" and warned against the mind otherwise tending towards mischief. Krishnamurti recognized the limitation of `self directed activity' as in formal meditation. So who's on whose side now! ;-) But of course, pariyatti must be followed by patipatti, otherwise pativedha can't be reached. ================== Nidhi: I am a very 'average' type of normal person. Defilements are very strong in me. But after finding it my life wasn't easier. Because it is very difficult to do. And other things look very disinteresting to me now. But doing this looks very very difficult, doesn't look possible for me at times. Suk: My impression of the Middle Way is that it should condition no sense of struggle. It is not that the Path is easy, indeed there is nothing more difficult to understand / follow. However this difficulty is in the fact of subtlety / "being hard to see" and not as in "someone" being here and needing to arrive at there. There are only dhammas arising and falling, this understanding should free us from ideas about "someone who is walking the Path", which is the source of such sense of struggle. I am leaving out the rest of your post because this covers the difference in our basic understanding of the Dhamma, and I think is what we should concern ourselves with. If however you would like me to address any particular point. I will be happy to respond to it. Metta, Sukinder #73737 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:07 pm Subject: Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) philofillet Hi all. I take back the below. No way I have time for this, obviously. It is time for one of my periodic breaks from DSG. It just snowballs too much, inevitably, for someone who has so little free time and should be staying off the internet as much as possible to work on the writing projects. It is absolutely right that students of Acharn Sujin question any posts in line with her teaching but I just can't afford to perform the service of providing them with "wrong view" fodder for now. Back in a few months, or years, or days - we'll see! Metta, Phil > As a project to clarify this (for myself at least) once and for all > I am going to methodically go through the MN and SN anthologies and > type out each and every reference to wrong view as indicated by the > index. I won't be commenting, just typing. :) > #73738 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) TGrand458@... Hi Phil, All... I think the Suttas will most commonly describe wrong view as the incorrect view/understanding regarding the 4 Noble Truths...ergo, the Noble Eightfold Path, the 12 Fold Chain, and Causation in general. Probably less frequently but also critically ... wrong view of seeing phenomena as permanent, when in actuality, phenomena are impermanent; seeing phenomena as predominantly a source for pleasure, when in actuality, phenomena are predominantly a source of unpleasantness; and seeing any circumstance as with self, when in actuality, any circumstance is without self. Wrong view regarding believing there is no kamma, i.e., no effects from killing, stealing, lying, and other "self-view related mis-conducts." (Also a causation issue.) Not believing that the Buddha is enlightened, the Dhamma well taught, and that the followers/monks are on the right Path might also count. Just a few thoughts from memory. TG In a message dated 6/25/2007 10:08:32 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, philco777@... writes: Hi all. I take back the below. No way I have time for this, obviously. It is time for one of my periodic breaks from DSG. It just snowballs too much, inevitably, for someone who has so little free time and should be staying off the internet as much as possible to work on the writing projects. It is absolutely right that students of Acharn Sujin question any posts in line with her teaching but I just can't afford to perform the service of providing them with "wrong view" fodder for now. Back in a few months, or years, or days - we'll see! Metta, Phil #73739 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) lbidd2 Hi Phil, I don't want to type out it all out, but I just looked at every index reference to wrong view in MN. This index heading under "views, wrong" deals with wrong view as part of the wrong eightfold path. All the references say pretty much the same thing: "And what, bhikkhus, is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good or bad actions; no this world, no other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.' This is wrong view." L: Right view is divided into mundane and supramundane, with the mundane being the opposite of the above and the supramundane being the various enlightenment factors. Self view is of course a major wrong view, but I don't know how it fits into the eightfold path. Maybe as something that is contemplated with 'right mindfulness' or abandoned with supramundane 'right view'??? Larry #73740 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt sarahprocter... Dear Scott, --- Scott Duncan wrote: <...> > There were other kindnesses but for me it was the unobtrusive, quiet > actions that seemed to carry the weight. .... Sarah: Thx for kindly sharing all the good and moving examples of kindnesses shown to you from that of the security officer to Mrs Wilson's. And how wonderful that here you are now, with such keen interest and confidence in the Dhamma, back to being a caring professional and also a super-caring Dad.... I'm sure this is all just as Andy would have wished for you. I think it's also an encouragement to us all not to overlook the value of those 'unobstrusive, quiet actions' we have opportunities for so often in a day. Metta, Sarah ======= #73741 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, TG & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: >>Controversial Sarah comment: Again, I think it comes > > back to understanding this momentary citta and how it always follows a > > previous momentary citta and must be followed by another momentary > citta. > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > ;-)) You never saw a citta you didn't like, Sarah! LOL! > I, however, never saw a citta per se at all. But I have, and am, > aware > of knowing, of known, of quality of mind - when there is upset, and when > there is peace. May we all have more genuine peace. > ------------------------------------------------- S: Let's get back to the Satipatthana Sutta here (Soma transl), especially in the light of TG's additional comments: "The Contemplation of Consciousness [Citta] "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, as without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; the shrunken state of consciousness, as the shrunken state; the distracted state of consciousness, as the distracted state; the state of consciousness become great, as the state become great; the state of consciousness not become great, as the state not become great; the state of consciousness with some other mental state superior to it, as the state with something mentally higher; the state of consciousness with no other mental state superior to it, as the state with nothing mentally higher; the quieted state of consciousness, as the quieted state; the state of consciousness not quieted, as the state not quieted; the freed state of consciousness as freed; and the unfreed state of consciousness, as unfreed." .... S: Citta is shorter to type than consciousness, but use what you like, TG! As I've tried to indicate before, the Buddha often refers to the speed of cittas and lots of detail is given on the processes of cittas in the Abhidhamma and commentaries. No need to fret about the detail, but what about this very moment? How long does attachment last now? How long does seeing last? How long does pleasant feeling last? How long does hate last? Can you really point to any citta or kind of consciousness which lasts longer than this moment? Which one? Is it not true that the consciousness now, whether it be a distracted one, an annoyed one or a happy one, follows a different kind of consciousness that has already fallen away? Is it not now followed by yet another one? Maybe hearing, maybe ignorance.... Of course there isn't any direct knowledge of all these different momentary cittas arising and falling away now. We'll never have a Buddha's insight. However, I do believe that as wisdom and awareness develop, they get closer and closer to directly knowing different kinds of consciousness, different kinds of mental factors and different kinds of rupas when they are experienced. I don't see this as being a question of 'Sarah's seeing' or anyone else's. Simply, it's the function of awareness to be aware of dhammas and the function of wisdom to directly know those dhammas for what they are. This mindfulness and clear comprehension which is stressed in the Satipatthana Sutta has to develop 'in all circumstances'. Metta, Sarah ======== #73742 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:07 am Subject: <.....> Hmmmm ksheri3 Hi Phil, No problem, I wait all the time, for everything. I'm usually the last in line too, so waiting isn't a problem. Anyway, some people always warn me about waiting around for something that doesn't come and will never come, kindof like tomorrow, they warned me all kinds of ways especially using a Pink Floyd lyrics that said something to the fact that "found dead waiting on the phone" I could be wrong about the composers, or the Phil Collins schtick "what he's waiting for I don't know. But he waits every day, now. He's just waiting for something to show." They fail to realize that I died along time ago, something like 1981, when I just realized that that this mob, this gang, this group of thugs, this status quo, was never gonna allow me to live or enjoy freedom so I just began having fun, enjoying MY CHOSEN FIELD OF STUDY, <...>. Still, you are certainly allowed to grasp onto your delusions, hallucinations, (delusions is the buddhist way of saying Wrong View, mind you) and present the fact that I am comunicating with you and that you are capturing my attention as a means of to permit the rest of whatever gang you associate with to pillage, ransack, pilfer, steal, burgle, whatever it is that you and this group hallucinate that I have and that I value. Lets look at what D.T.Suzuki has to say about this state of consciousness: "6. Satori is not a borbid state of mind, a fit subject for the study of abnormal psychology. If anything, it is a perfectly normal state of mind. When I speak of mental uphjeave, one may be led to consider Zen as something to be shunned by ordinary people. This is a most mistaken view of Zen, but one unfortunately often held by prejudiced critics. As Joshu declared, 'Zen is your everyday thought'; it all depends on the adjustment of the hinge whether the door opens in or opens out. Even in the twinkling of an eye the whole affair is changed and you have Zen, and you are as perfect and as normal as ever. More than that, you acquired in the meanitime something altogether new. All your mental activities will now be working to a different key, which will be more satisfying, more peaceful, and fuller of joy than anything you ever experienced before, The tone of life will be altered. There is something rejuvenating in the possession of Zen. The spring flowers look prettier, and the mountain stream runs cooler and more transparent. The subjective revolution that brings about this state of things cannot be called abnormal. When life becomes more enjoyable and its expense broadens to include the universe itself, there must be somtheing in Satori that is quite precious and well worth one's striving after." And now, lets have at that subject line, shall we? > Thanks for waiting for my reply. colette: exhaustion, see above. > Interesting, isn't it. I always perk up to the Dhamma when I drink > coffee, colette: please check your local drug dealer. Coffee is an amphetamine, a stimulant, therefore you better perk up a bit. but then there are posts that are so simple in their > approach that I can appreciate them even at my groggiest. colette: there are both times of groggieness which give me great humor and sorrow because they tax my brain which I am not ready, willing, nor able to have taxed. -------------------------------- > > I personally don't think taxing our brain to get at the heart of > Dhamma is the way to go. I don't think it's possible to get there by > taxing our brain. colette: now that's not very Yogacara, the yogas of the mind, now is it? As is this case for something like Hatha or Raja Yogas the practioner must go through some sort of stress and discomfort to achieve the goal they've set for themselves, don't you think? Why should the mind be any different than the body or other muscles in the body? ------------------------------ That's the way I feel these days. I thiink having > a brain that is de-taxed thanks to meditation (and having a > meditation object that we can return to often and easily during the > day to calm down the racing mind) is the way to go. colette: didn't you write the script for that Michael Douglas movie: Wall Street where M.Douglas says: "Greed, for lack of better terms, is good"? <...> Maybe we can look at it through the eyes of Venerable Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche, Karma Chagmey Rinpoch, and translated by Lama yeshe Gyamtso: "In short, whatever your lifestyle may be and whatever form your practice may take, if it includes the practice of Mahamudra it will be successful. Mahamudra is essential or necessary practice even if you do other practices as well. ... Where, if they are practices in the context of Mahamudra they're tremendously powerful. On the other hand, you can practice just Mahamudra without any of these methods and it is still tremendously beneficial by itself." > A few years ago > > I recall a person giving me the distinction of possessing "Isms" > and > > they just blew me away with laughter. Here again, with your > colette- > > oscope, colette: I forgot to mention that the person that said this was saying in the form of "Colette-isms" which you brought back to my mind the second I read "Colette-oscope". --------------------------- I ponder the musician Eminem and his references to Batman. > > It's light, humourous, thanx. > > My pleasure. I like your posts these days. <...> ----------------------------- > Ph: Sorry, I didn't get this. My policy these days is that if I > don't get something in a post on the first reading I let it go! That > won't last. We have to tax our brains and thinking harder about > Dhamma sometimes but not now, for me. colette: that is fine, but don't stop others from finding deeper and more satisfying meanings and truths to the dhamma just because you have chosen to stop and focus on other concerns. ------------------------------ > Ph: I like a sutta in AN in which the Buddha urges us to reflect > on the "blemishes" we have in our mind, whether we are *often* > hateful, or lustful or whatever. It is a sutta called "A mirror" I > think. colette: this is a very old technique for myself. I've done this for more than two decades. This is a concept that some friends of mine have in their lists of reading materials and they speak of "polishing the mirror" to remove the stains. ----------------- It probably sounds too self-helpish for most people here, but > I think this kind of self-assessment is very helpful, and I think > the Buddha invited us to do it. colette: this kind of self-assessment IS EXTREMELY BENEFICIAL to the practioner. --------------- There is another one in which the > Buddha asks us to consider whether we would like to die with these > stains in our mind, and urges us to do something about getting rid > of them. colette: again, a few yrs. ago I was discussing this very concept in the terms of the Vietnam war where buddhist monks would sit in the middle of the street then light themselves with gasoline burning to death. While people were saying the value and selflessness of this act I was concerned with the trauma that the individual was going through and how that trauma will be taken to their death with them. Now, after studying the Bardos a little I can see that not only is that a very bad thing to take but it totally stops the process of Togel where the individual is "leaping-over" the chasm between this life of samsara and begining a new life after their Bardo experience. They should hear the teachings at their death not the trauma of torching themselves. ------------- If someone tells me that there has not been a > recircuiting of my mind's tendencies that is important and to be > celebrated (Praise to the Buddha) I will just thank them for their > opinion and proceed to ignore it! colette: that's a terrible thing to say about others. Before you even know a person you automatically ignore them! <...> Why is your attention something that I should value? ------------------ > Bit of a ramble there, Colette. Thanks for lending me an ear. colette: no problems. I don't mind listening to stories since I can spin a good yarn too. Why take a break from the DSG? toodles, colette #73743 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi TG TGrand458@... wrote: > .. > Hi Howard, Sarah, and any believers in sequential cittas, > > Howard, your above is right on!!!! So many folks in this group speak > regularly about "seeing" each citta arising after the previous conditioning citta > falls...that this is the key in understanding Buddhism, etc. Not > withstanding that the Buddha didn't actually teach this ... do any of these people > really "SEE" this??? Or is it just a theory they adhere to. My strong > suspicion is it is the latter. > You obviously haven't been reading my posts of late :-(( :-(( In a recent post to Nidhi I said: "I think you'll find that people here who make reference to dhammas arising and falling away in an instant do so on the basis of their reading of the Tipitaka, and are not claiming personal direct experience of the momentary nature of dhammas." So the answer is neither of the 2 options you mention above (direct personal experience or adherence to a theory). It is simply a restatement of what they understand the texts to say, based on a reading of those texts, as assisted by whatever level of developed understanding there may be. To the extent that the person making the statement may hold to it as an article of belief, he/she is not doing him/herself a favour. But I hope you are not questioning the value of analysing and discussing what is stated in the texts, as best as one understands them. Of course, this is not to negate in any sense the value of direct understanding. But the intellectual appreciation of the teachings will always precede (and support) the realisation of them, surely? > > It sure smacks of "citta entity view" IMO. > What does, and why? > But if those folks "REALLY" (and I mean REALLY) "SEE" this, then I have to > tip my hat to them (if I was wearing a hat) as they are incredibly more > insightful and aware then I am. (Not that that's saying much.) ;-) > I suppose it'd be possible to divide folks here into 2 groups: those who are inclined to talk in terms of their own experience, and those who like to discuss what's in the texts. Never the twain shall meet, perhaps ;-)) Jon #73744 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (57) sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: >>S: Having torn asunder (padaaletvaa) the mass of delusion > > >(moha-kkhandha.m) not previously torn asunder ***with the sword of > the > > >knowledge of the highest path***. <...> > ======================== > Yes, good! Thanks for pointing that out. I'm glad to see it in > Theravada. It is a wonderful simile, I think. Do you suppose there is > also a sutta > reference somewhere, a mention by the Buddha himself, or maybe > Sariputta? .... S: I agree with you - a wonderful simile. Remember, Nina gave you the reference to the Vibhanga (2nd book of the Abhidhamma) where 'sword of wisdom' is given as one of many synonyms for samapaja~n~na. The Vibhanga was taught by the Buddha in brief, relayed by Sariputta and recited at the First Council, as part of the Khuddaka Nikaya if I recall:-). I can't think of any sutta references, but others like TG may know of one. Metta, Sarah ======= #73745 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga study guide sarahprocter... Hi James S (& Larry), --- James Stewart wrote: > Does anyone here know of any kind of study guide to the > Visuddhimagga in circulation, whether electronic or published? Any > reader of this massive and complex treatise would surely benefit from > one. ... S: I'm wondering if you have a copy of Nanamoli's translation of the text. If so, you might find his introduction helpful too. Can you also tell us a little more about your studies and interest? That way we get a better idea of how much detail you're looking for? I think B.Bodhi's translation of the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (C.M.A.)provides a pretty good study guide to the Vism and Abhidhamma. The A.S. is the text that bhikkhus in Burma and other places have studied in depth as an introduction to the Abhidhamma. Let us know how you're going. I believe the following was the post Larry was referring to. (Just fished out of U.P. under 'Visuddhimagga', Larry): Visuddhimagga, ch X1V, Larry’s index of text posts and Nina’s summaries and translations of the commentary #55332 Metta, Sarah ========= #73746 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: flashbacks and guilt sarahprocter... Dear Antony (& Scott), --- Antony Woods wrote: > Dear Sarah, Scott and all, > > I think that I'll be able to let go of the flashbacks by following the > Buddha's instructions. Majjhima 61: .... S: Thx for quoting and your further reflections. I was actually interested to see your response to Scott's (and my) feedback to your earlier post. Any kind of thinking (including 'flashbacks') is conditioned.....no one can stop it arising. Understanding what is useful and not useful helps a lot, however. <...> > > Dear Sarah (& Phil, Howard, Scott), > > > > > Sarah: 'Let them go!' is similar to Phil's 'Don't go there', I > think. > > > > Antony: Yes, `Don't go there' might be more effective. I found the > > source, #63680 Sep 06. ... S: That was an interesting exchange between Howard and Phil, I agree. ... > > Another memorable use of `Don't go there' from Thanissaro Bhikkhu: > > "Because those truths about things outside: you never really know. > > There's that whole issue: > > "Does the world really exist outside the information we get through > > our senses?" > > That's one of those issues the Buddha said "Don't Go There!" > > What we can know though is what we directly experience in terms of > > suffering and stress. You know when the mind is suffering, you can > > tell when it's not." > > http://www.dhammatalks.org > > 4m6s Truth as Medicine.mp3 .... S: Hmmm, I'd rephrase this and say that all we can know are dhammas experienced through the six doorways. All such dhammas are impermanent and thereby totally unsatisfactory. Dreams, flashbacks and information other than the dhammas (realities) appearing now are conceptual. Dwelling on these will not take us closer to liberation. How does that sound? ... > > I've been repeatedly reciting whilst facing my Buddha image: > > "If by deed, speech or thought, > > foolishly I've done wrong, > > may all forgive me honored ones > > who are in wisdom and compassion strong. > > I freely forgive anyone who may have hurt or injured me > > I freely forgive myself." > > A: I like the word "foolishly". I can't work out why. Don't go there? .... S: It reminds me of a hymn we sang at my father's funeral (selected by him) which I've always liked. The only line I remember is '...forgive our foolish ways....' Metta, Sarah ======== #73747 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Enlightenment and Nirvana sarahprocter... Hi Sudhana, --- sudhanadewan wrote: > > Swee Boon > > Thank you Swee Boon for answering my questions. Your answer make me > very clear if not fully. It is really benificial site for me. But > unfortunately I do not get much time to participate or even to read. > sudhana ..... Sarah: you might find it helpful to also look at this link: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nibbaana.htm You'll see it refers to the '2 aspects of Nibbana': a) the full extinction of defilements b) the full extinction of the groups of existence. Please let us know if it's not clear. Thx for raising your good questions and hope you find time to participate more. By the way, do you visit any Buddhist temples in Leicester or meet others interested in the Buddhist teachings? Metta, Sarah ======== #73748 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Sarah, Howard, and All, In a message dated 6/26/2007 2:46:56 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, TG & all, --- _upasaka@..._ (mailto:upasaka@...) wrote: >>Controversial Sarah comment: Again, I think it comes > > back to understanding this momentary citta and how it always follows a > > previous momentary citta and must be followed by another momentary > citta. > > ------------ ---- ---- ---- > Howard: > ;-)) You never saw a citta you didn't like, Sarah! LOL! > I, however, never saw a citta per se at all. But I have, and am, > aware > of knowing, of known, of quality of mind - when there is upset, and when > there is peace. May we all have more genuine peace. > ------------ ---- ---- ---- ---- S: Let's get back to the Satipatthana Sutta here (Soma transl), especially in the light of TG's additional comments: "The Contemplation of Consciousness [Citta] "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in consciousness? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, as without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; the shrunken state of consciousness, as the shrunken state; the distracted state of consciousness, as the distracted state; the state of consciousness become great, as the state become great; the state of consciousness not become great, as the state not become great; the state of consciousness with some other mental state superior to it, as the state with something mentally higher; the state of consciousness with no other mental state superior to it, as the state with nothing mentally higher; the quieted state of consciousness, as the quieted state; the state of consciousness not quieted, as the state not quieted; the freed state of consciousness as freed; and the unfreed state of consciousness, as unfreed." .... S: Citta is shorter to type than consciousness, but use what you like, TG! ............................................. NEW TG: I think the terms "citta" and "dhammas" work as a "foil" by which to "couch" the "theory of dhammas...as ultimate realities with their own characteristics." Therefore, its not JUST a matter of a different term for consciousness. ............................................. As I've tried to indicate before, the Buddha often refers to the speed of cittas and lots of detail is given on the processes of cittas in the Abhidhamma and commentaries. ............................................ NEW TG: The Buddha "often" refers to the speed of cittas??? I'm aware of one instance in the suttas where this occurs. Quote... “Monks, I know not of any other thing so quick to change as the mind: insomuch as it is no easy thing to illustrate how quick to change it is.â€? (The Buddha . . . GS, vo1. 1, pg. 7 – 8) Now, there may very well be more instances...but "often"? ... I highly doubt it. One such reference hardly makes it a crucial issue in the Suttas. In fact, its almost something said in passing. I'd appreciate it if you would provide the "many" references you speak of so that I am better informed. In addition, the above reference IMO doesn't at all indicate the kind of theories that the commentaries are proffering. Once again, its just the Buddha speaking about common sense things. ............................................. No need to fret about the detail, but what about this very moment? How long does attachment last now? How long does seeing last? How long does pleasant feeling last? How long does hate last? ............................................... NEW TG: I don't think these questions are important. I think they're a distraction. What's important is to understand cause and effect (conditionality), that phenomena are changing due to interactive relationships/dynamics, and to realize that all things dear to us (and all things PERIOD) will disintegrate. And yes, to be aware of such changes in progress. .................................................. Can you really point to any citta or kind of consciousness which lasts longer than this moment? Which one? Is it not true that the consciousness now, whether it be a distracted one, an annoyed one or a happy one, follows a different kind of consciousness that has already fallen away? ....................................... NEW TG: Consciousness does what the conditions entail. As conditions are dynamic and continuously changing; consciousness, being "driven" by conditions, responds in accordance to those conditions. .............................................. Is it not now followed by yet another one? Maybe hearing, maybe ignorance...i Of course there isn't any direct knowledge of all these different momentary cittas arising and falling away now. We'll never have a Buddha's insight. However, I do believe that as wisdom and awareness develop, they get closer and closer to directly knowing different kinds of consciousness, different kinds of mental factors and different kinds of rupas when they are experienced. I don't see this as being a question of 'Sarah's seeing' or anyone else's. Simply, it's the function of awareness to be aware of dhammas ................................................ NEW TG: Here we go again. Got to get those "dhammas" in there. :-) Awareness is the product of conditional structures...as are all conditions. Awareness is aware of the conditions generating/structuring that awareness. Those conditions and that awareness are impermanent, unpleasurable when grasped, and not-self. ................................................... and the function of wisdom to directly know those dhammas for what they are. .................................................. NEW TG: If by "dhammas" you just meant "selfless conditions" then I'd agree. But I know this isn't what you have in mind... You see a bubbling stew, A witches brew, Of little dhammas, All for you. They come and go, With speed so fast, Counting them, Is quite a blast. Look real close, You'll think you'll see, The quintessence, Of Reality. Better yet, Let it go, Dhammas are, Just a show. ........................................... This mindfulness and clear comprehension which is stressed in the Satipatthana Sutta has to develop 'in all circumstances'S ............................................ NEW TG: Of experiences yes. Of "dhammas" as some ultimate reality, no. The "in all circumstances" is too broad IMO. TG OUT #73749 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] what was it all about?? sarahprocter... Dear Ven Pannabahulo, --- pannabahulo wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > For me, 'impermanent' means "not remaining". It asserts nothing more > > than existing at the moment, but not existing at some point in the > future. > However, 'inconstant' means "not remaining THE SAME," which to me > implies > > continuing "substance" with changing "quality", and that position, > because of the > > implication of continuing substance, strikes me as contrary to the > Dhamma. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Ven P: Thank you Howard, that clarifies things completely. So that's one > issue that now makes sense to me. > With metta and thanks again, ... S: i'm glad that was clarified! Do you have any other issues you'd like summarised by those involved in them? I think it's a good idea to ask. Some threads run to over 100 posts and so it's very reasonable to ask for summaries!! We'll look forward to meeting you next week as scheduled. Metta & respect, Sarah ====== #73750 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide buddhatrue Hi Larry, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > L: I don't know if my actions were in conformity with the dhamma or not. > I typed out the paragraphs because I enjoyed it, found it a good way to > study, and wanted to share that. That is a goal. Enough said. Metta, James #73751 From: TGrand458@... Date: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Jon!!! In a message dated 6/26/2007 3:23:15 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi TG _TGrand458@..._ (mailto:TGrand458@...) wrote: > .. > Hi Howard, Sarah, and any believers in sequential cittas, > > Howard, your above is right on!!!! So many folks in this group speak > regularly about "seeing" each citta arising after the previous conditioning citta > falls...that this is the key in understanding Buddhism, etc. Not > withstanding that the Buddha didn't actually teach this ... do any of these people > really "SEE" this??? Or is it just a theory they adhere to. My strong > suspicion is it is the latter. > You obviously haven't been reading my posts of late :-(( :-(( ........................................ NEW TG: True enough. Sorry about that. ...................................... In a recent post to Nidhi I said: "I think you'll find that people here who make reference to dhammas arising and falling away in an instant do so on the basis of their reading of the Tipitaka, and are not claiming personal direct experience of the momentary nature of dhammas." ............................................ NEW TG: How do you interpret the passages in the Suttas that talk about "changing while persisting"? ............................................... So the answer is neither of the 2 options you mention above (direct personal experience or adherence to a theory). It is simply a restatement of what they understand the texts to say, based on a reading of those texts, as assisted by whatever level of developed understanding there may be. ........................................................ NEW TG: Its not simply restating what's in the Tipitika. Its a whole bunch of new theory/ideas that are not represented in the Tipitika. That's the part I take issue with on occasion. ....................................................... To the extent that the person making the statement may hold to it as an article of belief, he/she is not doing him/herself a favour. .................................................... NEW TG: If they can compare the sutta, with direct experience, and see the correctness of it at whatever depth capable; then confidence, faith, or belief in the correctness of those teachings is appropriate IMO. When they go beyond what is seeable/knowable by themselves, and yet claim its "the truth," then there is a problem of grasping after views/theories IMO. If they do not have the direct knowledge, then they should say...this is in the suttas, this is in the commentaries, etc. They should not quote commentarial material and claim ... "the Buddha taught this" or "this is the Buddha's teaching" IMO. It should be said... "the commentaries have interpreted the Buddha's teachings to be saying this although the Suttas do not say this verbatim." This way, the TRUTH is preserved. There's even a Sutta dealing with preserving the truth that is not identical but quite relevant to this discussion. ...................................................... But I hope you are not questioning the value of analysing and discussing what is stated in the texts, as best as one understands them. Of course, this is not to negate in any sense the value of direct understanding. But the intellectual appreciation of the teachings will always precede (and support) the realisation of them, surely? ...................................................... NEW TG: No problem there. ................................................ > > It sure smacks of "citta entity view" IMO. > What does, and why? .................................................... NEW TG: The theory of "dhammas" (in this case cittas) as "ultimate realities with their own characteristics." .............................................. > But if those folks "REALLY" (and I mean REALLY) "SEE" this, then I have to > tip my hat to them (if I was wearing a hat) as they are incredibly more > insightful and aware then I am. (Not that that's saying much.) ;-) > I suppose it'd be possible to divide folks here into 2 groups: those who are inclined to talk in terms of their own experience, and those who like to discuss what's in the texts. Never the twain shall meet, perhaps ;-)) ........................................................... NEW TG: Then there's those who talk of the crucial importance of direct experience but when push comes to shove, they claim they are only repeated what's in books. This makes me scratch my head...how do they know direct experience is so crucial if they claim not to have it? They're probably just being modest. Later Jon TG OUT #73752 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is sati sarahprocter... Dear Nidhi, --- wisdomcompassion wrote: > *********************** > Nidhi: where does such 'understanding' of "visible objects" or other > sense objects leads to. ... S: It leads to a knowledge of what is really experienced, rather than what is imangined to be experienced through the eye-sense. For example, now we think we see a computer and all sorts of other objects. In fact, seeing just sees a visible object and the rest occurs as a result of a lot of thinking about the visible objects. ... >I mean to say if in moment1 mind experiences > something through sense door (lets take seeing as an example), ... S: Through the eye-door, only visible object is experienced. Seeing can only be experienced through the mind-door... ... >and it > understands it as interaction of eye organ, visible object and eye > consciousness and not 'me' ... While this is true, it is thinking about concepts of dhammas, not what is experienced through the eye-sense. (Sorry, to be picky...:-)) ... >, but in moment2 clinging arises where does > awareness of moment1 leads to? ... S: Excellent questions as usual, Nidhi! Awareness of the visible object or seeing consciousness or any other dhamma leads to more awareness and the growth of wisdom. With the growth of wisdom, we may begin to see how foolish it is to cling to what is seen momentarily and has fallen away already! We will see that the ideas about what is seen that we cling on to are merely ideas, not realities. Also, the seeing which sees visible object arises due to past kamma. No one can stop it or change it at all. So what's the use of clinging and having aversion towards what is conditioned already by past kamma? Life really comes back to this moment and understanding that the world is just that which is appearing now through one of the senses. .... >I am asking this question this way > because i think that it is "clinging" that is real culprit, not sense > objects, sense organs etc. ... S: Yes, exactly! This is why the Buddha taught that it is the cause of suffering. All day we're searching and clinging to dukkha! .... >While attempting "understanding" realities > one must be very clear about this. I mean to say rupas must be > understood in relation to namas. A scientist experimenting with atoms > is trying to understand rupas (matter) , but without taking into > account nama, so it gives him knowledge of matter, but not panna, and > non-clinging with other forms of matter. ... S: Well said! Yes, both namas and rupas have to be clearly understood. Without the growth of this understanding, there will always be an idea of atta. Thx for expressing your further agreements. > *************************** <...> > I have some more questions which might help me in understanding your > viewpoint. > 1) What do you mean by "understanding" ... S: I think I answered that last time;-) There are different kinds and levels of understanding. Usually, when the texts (or I) refer to it, it is to the understanding of the development of the path, the understanding of dhammas (realities) such as those you refer to above like seeing or visible object. The texts refer to the mundane and supramundane understanding. ... > 2) what are your view points about meditation. I do not know whether > you have actually meditated or not, but that makes no difference. > important thing is if one doesn't meditate is it possible to > understand the root of clinging and emotions. ... S: My view is that it's more helpful to stick to the textual definitions of bhavana (mental development/meditation) which is of two kinds: a)samatha development, b)vipassana development. When it comes to the understanding of clinging, it can only ever be now, when clinging arises. This is regardless of whether we are sitting quietly or running across the road. I haven't followed a 'formal meditation practice' along the Goenka or Mahasi-style technique or been on any 'meditation' retreat either for well over 30 yrs now! As you say, it doesn't matter either way - I just don't see it as the path. ... >I differentiate between > 'raga moola citta', and presence of 'raga in citta'. while first > represents quality of mind/citta, and second is thought rooted in raga > being present in citta. I find penetrating thought in citta and > understanding it is possbile at times but raga moola citta (same as > well for dosha and moha) is quite hard thing to penetrate. never could > i 'understand' it. Now these are very subtle things, can these things > be understood without going deep into one's mind. .... S: I'm not sure I quite follow you. In any case, raga, dosa and moha all have characteristics that can be known when they 'appear'. I don't believe this is ever by looking for them. As you say, the dhammas are subtle. Even when it seems that we know dosa, for example, usually there's an idea of 'my dosa' or 'I know'. This is not the same. ... >Another point which > I find important is that what is the problem if one understands > reality of prsesent moment with one's eyes closed. ... S: No problem at all. If there's 'trying', even this can be known as a reality. ... >Let's take an > example, if while writing this mail, some emotion comes in my mind, > and in order to understand this reality i stop writing for a while and > close my eyes and try to understand it, what problem you see in that? ... S: I see that by the time you stop writing, put down your pen and close your eyes that the emotion had long since disappeared. The reality then is an attachment to trying to experience or know something which has past. That's OK too - the attachment or any other dhamma can be known at that moment. I enjoy your posts and questions a lot, Nidhi! Do hope we meet you and Ramesh in India. Metta, Sarah ====== #73753 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) sarahprocter... Oh my Terry G You'll never see the light If you argue and fight Roar and miaow But miss realities now Can you not see It isn't about 'Me'? Cittas and dhammas Not chariots and lamas Namas and rupas Not energies or stupas Now they appear And now they disappear! **** S: Loved your poem - you have the wit - must be all those 'selfless conditions'! I have a bundle of your posts to reply to - I was waiting for your return, but am now winding down before our trip. Let's leave it to more 'selfless conditions':-)) Good to have you back... Back to my brew....:-) Metta, Sarah ======== --- TGrand458@... wrote: > NEW TG: If by "dhammas" you just meant "selfless conditions" then I'd > agree. But I know this isn't what you have in mind... > > You see a bubbling stew, > A witches brew, > Of little dhammas, > All for you. > > They come and go, > With speed so fast, > Counting them, > Is quite a blast. > > Look real close, > You'll think you'll see, > The quintessence, > Of Reality. > > Better yet, > Let it go, > Dhammas are, > Just a show. #73754 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:16 am Subject: Re: Sammaadi.t.thi study corner scottduncan2 Dear All, 32. "Saying, 'Good friend,' the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the venerable Saariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: 'But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma?' - 'There might be, friends.' Saadhaavusoti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato saariputtassa bhaasita.m abhinanditvaa anumoditvaa aayasmanta.m saariputta.m uttari.m pa~nha.m aapucchu.m: " siyaa panaavuso a~n~nopi pariyaayo yathaa ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti ujugataassa di.t.thi, dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato' aagato ima.m saddhammanti?" 33. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands clinging, the origin of clinging, the cessation of clinging, and the way leading to the cessation of clinging, in that way he is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma. Siyaa aavuso. Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako upaadaana~nca pajaanaati, upaadaanasamudaya~nca pajaanaati, upaadaananirodha~nca pajaanaati, upaadaananirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada~nca pajaanaati, ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. 34. "And what is clinging, what is the origin of clinging, what is the cessation of clinging, and what is the way leading to the cessation of clinging? There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures; clinging to views; clinging to rules and observances; and clinging to a doctrine of self. With the arising of craving there is the arising of clinging. With the cessation of craving there is the cessation of clinging. The way leading to the cessation of clinging is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view...right concentration. Katama.m panaavuso upaadaana.m? Katamo upaadaanasamudayo? Katamo upaadaananirodho? Katamaa upaadaananirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa?Ti. Cattaarimaani aavuso upaadaanaani: kaamuupaadaana.m di.t.thuupaadaana.m siilabbatuupaadaana.m attavaaduupaadaana.m. Ta.nhaasamudayaa upaadaanasamudayo. Ta.nhaa nirodhaa upaadaana nirodho. Ayameva ariyo a.t.tha"ngiko maggo upaadaananirodhagaaminii pa.tipadaa seyyathiida.m: Sammaadi.t.thi sammaasa"nkappo, sammaavaacaa, sammaakammanto, sammaaaajiivo sammaavaayaamo sammaasati, sammaasamaadhi. 35. "When a noble disciple has thus understood clinging, the origin of clinging, the cessation of clinging, and the way leading to the cessation of clinging...he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too, a noble disciple is one of right view...and has arrived at this true Dhamma." Yato kho aavuso ariyasaavako eva.m upaadaana.m pajaanaati, eva.m upaadaanasamudaya.m pajaanaati, eva.m upaadaananirodha.m pajaanaati, eva.m upaadaananirodhagaamini.m pa.tipada.m pajaanaati, so sabbaso raagaanusaya.m pahaaya pa.tighanusaya.m pa.tivinodetvaa asmiiti di.t.thimaanaanusaya.m samuuhanitvaa avijja.m pahaaya vijja.m uppaadetvaa di.t.theva dhamme dukkhassanta"nkaro hoti. Ettaavataapi kho aavuso ariyasaavako sammaadi.t.thi hoti. Ujugataassa di.t.thi. Dhamme aveccappasaadena samannaagato aagato ima.m saddhammanti. Sincerely, Scott. #73755 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is the wrong view? (References from the MN anthology) upasaka_howard Hi, Larry (and Phil) - In a message dated 6/26/07 2:11:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: > Hi Phil, > > I don't want to type out it all out, but I just looked at every index > reference to wrong view in MN. This index heading under "views, wrong" > deals with wrong view as part of the wrong eightfold path. All the > references say pretty much the same thing: > > "And what, bhikkhus, is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing > offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good or bad actions; > no this world, no other world; no mother, no father; no beings who are > reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the > world who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare > this world and the other world.' This is wrong view." > > ======================== I point out for consideration that this includes nothing along the lines of mothers, fathers, worlds, beings, and conglomerates in general, not existing. In fact, it says that to believe that they do not is wrong view. Someone *might* consider that this says that taking the ultimate versus conventional distinction "too far" is wrong view. (Just a point to consider.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #73756 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and TG) - In a message dated 6/26/07 4:48:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard, TG &all, > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > >>Controversial Sarah comment: Again, I think it comes > >>back to understanding this momentary citta and how it always follows a > >>previous momentary citta and must be followed by another momentary > >citta. > > > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > ;-)) You never saw a citta you didn't like, Sarah! LOL! > > I, however, never saw a citta per se at all. But I have, and am, > >aware > >of knowing, of known, of quality of mind - when there is upset, and when > >there is peace. May we all have more genuine peace. > >------------------------------------------------- > S: Let's get back to the Satipatthana Sutta here (Soma transl), especially > in the light of TG's additional comments: > > "The Contemplation of Consciousness [Citta] > > "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness in > consciousness? > > "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, as > with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the > consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, as > without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the > consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; the shrunken state > of consciousness, as the shrunken state; the distracted state of > consciousness, as the distracted state; the state of consciousness become > great, as the state become great; the state of consciousness not become > great, as the state not become great; the state of consciousness with some > other mental state superior to it, as the state with something mentally > higher; the state of consciousness with no other mental state superior to > it, as the state with nothing mentally higher; the quieted state of > consciousness, as the quieted state; the state of consciousness not > quieted, as the state not quieted; the freed state of consciousness as > freed; and the unfreed state of consciousness, as unfreed." > .... > S: Citta is shorter to type than consciousness, but use what you like, TG! > > As I've tried to indicate before, the Buddha often refers to the speed of > cittas and lots of detail is given on the processes of cittas in the > Abhidhamma and commentaries. -------------------------------------------- Howard: In the suttas, I do not believe the Buddha speaks of "cittas" (plural) or of "a citta" as a corpuscular moment of knowing. The word 'citta' just means consiousness, or, sometimes, thought - the basic mental activity. ---------------------------------------------- > > No need to fret about the detail, but what about this very moment? How > long does attachment last now? How long does seeing last? How long does > pleasant feeling last? How long does hate last? > > Can you really point to any citta or kind of consciousness which lasts > longer than this moment? Which one? Is it not true that the consciousness > now, whether it be a distracted one, an annoyed one or a happy one, > follows a different kind of consciousness that has already fallen away? Is > it not now followed by yet another one? Maybe hearing, maybe ignorance.... > > Of course there isn't any direct knowledge of all these different > momentary cittas arising and falling away now. We'll never have a Buddha's > insight. However, I do believe that as wisdom and awareness develop, they > get closer and closer to directly knowing different kinds of > consciousness, different kinds of mental factors and different kinds of > rupas when they are experienced. > > I don't see this as being a question of 'Sarah's seeing' or anyone else's. > Simply, it's the function of awareness to be aware of dhammas and the > function of wisdom to directly know those dhammas for what they are. This > mindfulness and clear comprehension which is stressed in the Satipatthana > Sutta has to develop 'in all circumstances'. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #73757 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:33 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide corvus121 Hi Robert I've been "off the air" for a day or so, so just catching up now. > So if we agree we do not want to fall in a heap, then we have to act, > and we do every day. The question is what directs our actions? Yes, exactly. That's the critical question. So what does the Dhamma say in answer to it? That there is no "I" directing actions! Now, that answer tells me that these Enlightened Ones are saying that the reality I perceive or believe I perceive is different from the true reality. I think we always have to bear that in mind. > my intellectual understanding of anatta is not much good in directing > my actions. I am still the same desire driven creature after I > studied these teachings as before. For me, the more useful teachings > in directing my actions are the teachings on what you should do rather > than the teachings on what you should believe, for those require only > the understanding that following these teachings lead to living a > better life - one that causes less harm and brings more happiness and > peace and this can be seen easily enough if you put those teachings > into practice, even if imperfectly. Understanding of the Four Noble > Truths will come in time as we follow the Buddha's guidance to > practice restraint and ethical thoughts, words, and deeds, and to calm > and steady our minds, as well as studying the teachings. Sorry, you've lost me here. Are you saying that Dhamma study hasn't changed you (but practice has)? I'm finding it hard to separate the two in a meaningful way. Maybe you can elaborate? When you say that our practice will be "imperfect", I understand the point (often made on DSG) that we start where we are, not where we want to be. Being too lax with this attitude, however, is akin to saying that it is safe to pick up the snake from the rear end. The Buddha expressly warned us that "imperfect" Dhamma would turn around and bite us. We really mustn't forget that advice!! [snip] Why is "choices" in quotes above? Possibly the act of quoting the > word choices is an example of the analytical knots I was talking > about. We do make choices every moment. No, no ... Dhammapala is suggesting that our perception of choices is illusory, that Arahants don't make choices (e.g. they are incapable of killing - there is simply no choice involved. Only action/abstention. "Choices" are "I" driven things arising from ignorance - and they should be put in quotes! - they are not the way out of samsara.) We do our best to respond to the spirit of > the teachings, however imperfect is our understanding of those > teachings, with help from the guidance we can get from those who are > wiser than ourselves. There is always some degree of confusion in > our response, but we must do the best we can. But we have to make > choices and act on those choices. Yes, we do our best. But only if all the necessary conditions for "our best" co-arise in the present moment (when else could they arise?). Otherwise, we are like a hen sitting on sterile eggs that will never hatch out, no matter how much we wish them to. Robert, I hope you don't think I'm being a pain. There's alot in your posts I totally agree with and yet I rush around only finding the time to talk about areas where I think we have different emphases. And I think your emphasis is a good counter-balance to others we read on the list, too (including mine, if the truth be told!!). It's useful to explore the four corners of the Dhamma, even if some of them are a bit murky for our liking. Best wishes Andrew #73758 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/26/07 6:45:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > NEW TG: How do you interpret the passages in the Suttas that talk about > "changing while persisting"? > ===================== That's interesting to me. I would very much appreciate references. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #73759 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Re: flashbacks and guilt scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for your kind words: Sarah: "...And how wonderful that here you are now, with such keen interest and confidence in the Dhamma, back to being a caring professional and also a super-caring Dad.... I'm sure this is all just as Andy would have wished for you." Scott: And yeah, not to forget the kindness of the Teacher. And, its weird, I initially feel like giving back your kind words but you mean them, so I'll take them. The 'caring' comes and goes, eh. While dying, in response to my grief-stricken promises to try to be a good dad (I thought the best parent was going away), Andy said she thought I would be a good dad. I doubted it, but she was kind to me even while dying. Another example of kindness. I went back to her words from time to time. I watched Andy have to come to terms with her own clinging and letting go of everything. And, I guess this must be said, there is no Andy anymore. To whichever being the next citta arose - no more Andy. S: "I think it's also an encouragement to us all not to overlook the value of those 'unobstrusive, quiet actions' we have opportunities for so often in a day." Scott: Definitely. Sincerely, Scott. #73760 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& TG), --- upasaka@... wrote: > > S: > > "The Contemplation of Consciousness [Citta] > > > > "And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness > in > > consciousness? > > "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, > as > > with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the > > consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, > as > > without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the > > consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; the shrunken > state > > of consciousness, as the shrunken state; the distracted state of > > consciousness, as the distracted state; <...> .... > Howard: > In the suttas, I do not believe the Buddha speaks of "cittas" > (plural) > or of "a citta" as a corpuscular moment of knowing. The word 'citta' > just > means consiousness, or, sometimes, thought - the basic mental activity. > ---------------------------------------------- S: Does this help? SN 35:27 'Full Understanding' (Bodhi transl): " 'Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. "And what, bhikkhus, is the all....? "The eye and forms and eye-consciousness [Cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na, i.e. citta]and things to be cognized by eye-consciousness.......etc." Metta, Sarah ======== #73761 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/26/07 8:53:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard (& TG), > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >>S: > >>"The Contemplation of Consciousness [Citta] > >> > >>"And how, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating consciousness > >in > >>consciousness? > >>"Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the consciousness with lust, > >as > >>with lust; the consciousness without lust, as without lust; the > >>consciousness with hate, as with hate; the consciousness without hate, > >as > >>without hate; the consciousness with ignorance, as with ignorance; the > >>consciousness without ignorance, as without ignorance; the shrunken > >state > >>of consciousness, as the shrunken state; the distracted state of > >>consciousness, as the distracted state; <...> > .... > >Howard: > > In the suttas, I do not believe the Buddha speaks of "cittas" > >(plural) > >or of "a citta" as a corpuscular moment of knowing. The word 'citta' > >just > >means consiousness, or, sometimes, thought - the basic mental activity. > >---------------------------------------------- > S: Does this help? > > SN 35:27 'Full Understanding' (Bodhi transl): > > " 'Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, > without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is > incapable of destroying suffering. > > "And what, bhikkhus, is the all....? > > "The eye and forms and eye-consciousness [Cakkhu-vi~n~naa.na, i.e. > citta]and things to be cognized by eye-consciousness.......etc." --------------------------------------- Howard: No, Sarah, it seems to support what I was saying. (But thank you.:-) --------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===================== With metta, Howard #73762 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Sarah LOL In a message dated 6/26/2007 5:10:13 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Oh my Terry G You'll never see the light If you argue and fight Roar and miaow But miss realities now Can you not see It isn't about 'Me'? ................................... NEW TG" "Realities" is a view, That doesn't become you, But I have to agree, Its not about me. .................................... Cittas and dhammas Not chariots and lamas Namas and rupas Not energies or stupas Now they appear And now they disappear! **** .......................................... New TG: "Cittas" and "Dhammas," Are just small chariots and Lamas, These views of things, Self-view it brings, "Namas" and "Rupas," Or Chariots or Stupas, They're tools to "see," Actuality. These perturbations, Are imaginations, Of empty states, With dire fates. The "Teachings show, These views must go, We're dying now, And not too slow. "Energies," Are Just the same, A tool for "me," To quit this game. No essence lies, In anything, No state exists, As its own thing. I do not doubt, That you're sincere, But "realities" views, Seem very queer. "Realities," Is not The Path, Its getting late, Time for a bath. ..................................................................... S: Loved your poem - you have the wit - must be all those 'selfless conditions'! ....................................... NEW TG: Its all the imaginations that this "delusional system" is propped-up by. ................................................ I have a bundle of your posts to reply to - I was waiting for your return, but am now winding down before our trip. Let's leave it to more 'selfless conditions':con Good to have you back... Back to my brew....:-) ............................. NEW TG: LOL Stirring up trouble eh? LOL TG OUT #73763 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Sarah and Howard In a message dated 6/26/2007 6:53:59 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > Howard: > In the suttas, I do not believe the Buddha speaks of "cittas" > (plural) > or of "a citta" as a corpuscular moment of knowing. The word 'citta' > just > means consiousness, or, sometimes, thought - the basic mental activity. > ------------ ---- ---- ---- -- S: Does this help? SN 35:27 'Full Understanding' (Bodhi transl): " 'Bhikkhus, without directly knowing and fully understanding the all, without developing dispassion towards it and abandoning it, one is incapable of destroying suffering. "And what, bhikkhus, is the all....? "The eye and forms and eye-consciousness [Cakkhu-vi~n~"The eye and citta]and things to be cognized by eye-consciousness.citta]and c Metta, Sarah ........................................ TG: Samyutta Nikaya / Connected Discourse Pg 1141. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the Dhamma for abandoning all through direct knowledge and full understanding. Listen to that... And what, Bhikkhus, is the Dhamma for abandoning all through direct knowledge and full understanding? The eye is to be abandoned through direct knowledge and full understanding, forms are to be so abandoned, eye consciousness is to be so abandoned, eye-contact is to be so abandoned, and whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition --- whether pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant --- that too is to be abandoned through direct knowledge and full understanding." The Sutta continues on to include the other 5 sense fields. Directly knowing is direct knowing and awareness of changing experiences. Full understanding fully understands (at least in principle) the conditional circumstances propagating those changes. The value of which is to "abandon" these things; not to establish an ontology of ultimate realities with their own characteristics. BTW Sarah, are "the eye," "the ear," etc. ultimate realities from your point of view or conceptual constructions? If its the latter, then I hardly think such a Sutta as you posted supports your position...in fact, it would undermine it. But then again, if you do think the "eye," "ear," etc. are ultimate realities, we have other things to talk about. ;-) TG #73764 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/26/2007 5:26:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: In the suttas, I do not believe the Buddha speaks of "cittas" (plural) or of "a citta" as a corpuscular moment of knowing. The word 'citta' just means consiousness, or, sometimes, thought - the basic mental activity. Hi Howard, All This is extremely well put IMO. A very important point which will undoubtedly be ignored as much as possible. I'm saving this brilliant comment. (Not mine... yours. LOL) TG #73765 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi All "Friends, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of desire, lust, delight, craving, attraction, and clinging, AND OF MENTAL STANDPOINTS, adherences, and underlying tendencies regarding the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, and things cognizable through eye-consciousness, I have understood that my mind is liberated." MN 112 Repeated for all sense bases, objects, and consciounesses. It seems to me that some in this group prescribe a massive build-up of "mental standpoints" regarding the so-called "ultimate realities." The Buddha, on the other hand, prescribes to break down and eject such standpoints. TG #73766 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi All Please refer to Connected Discourses of the Buddha page 951. A Lump of Foam Here the Buddha spells out in complete clarity how the so-called "ulimate realities" are to be considered... They should be considered as VOID, HOLLOW, INSUBSTANTIAL These are the Buddha's words... not my "crazy ramblings." TG #73767 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/26/2007 5:42:20 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > NEW TG: How do you interpret the passages in the Suttas that talk about > "changing while persisting"? > ===================== That's interesting to me. I would very much appreciate references. :-) With metta, Howard Hi Howard Please don't take this as saying that some entity persists through time. Its just a common sense way about speaking of changing states and the fact that certain forms are identifiable over a course of time. I'm surprised you seem unfamiliar with this Sutta teaching. The Suttas are replete with this formula. I don't seem to have any saved examples so I have to research. Here's a similar sentiment but not the formula I was addressing. From Connected Discourse Page 1172... "Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." This is repeated for all conditions. Another similar sample... "...that consciousness of his changes and alters. With the change and alteration of consciousness, there arise in him sorrow..." etc Samyutta Book 3 OK Found some references.... Still a different format but closer... From Connected Discourses of the Buddha page 1005 -- 1006... "Bhikkhus, eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." The key phrase being -- "becoming otherwise." This is repeated for virtually any phenomenal contingency. Oops, just noticed same formula as first example. LOL Tired now. I'll post you when I find more but they are strewn throughout the Suttas. TG #73768 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/26/07 5:13:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > Please don't take this as saying that some entity persists through time. > Its just a common sense way about speaking of changing states and the fact > that > certain forms are identifiable over a course of time. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I understand. There's no problem. ---------------------------------------- > > I'm surprised you seem unfamiliar with this Sutta teaching. The Suttas are > > replete with this formula. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I don't doubt you. But I can't at the moment think of such. Actually, I tend these days to view cessation of phenomena as perpetual and instantaneous, with nothing remaining for any time at all - at least in the same form or bearing the same relation to other phenomena, in which case all identification becomes entirely conventional. And with nothing persisting (as is) for any positive time period, the distinction between discrete and continuous seems to me to become entirely moot. ----------------------------------------- > > I don't seem to have any saved examples so I have to research. > > Here's a similar sentiment but not the formula I was addressing. From > Connected Discourse Page 1172... > > "Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." > > This is repeated for all conditions. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. The phrases "changing" and "becoming otherwise" do carry the sense of persisting-while-changing. That, actually, is an apt description for gross conglomerates. I also think it is valid for namas and rupas, but I consider all these as conventional, and differing only in complexity of mental processing. The terminology of "persisting while changing" is also merely conventional, for there is no real thing that persists but changes, for once "changed", the original is no longer there! The problem, as I see it, is in thinking that there is any separate, identifiable "thing" there to begin with at all! ------------------------------------------ > > Another similar sample... > > "...that consciousness of his changes and alters. With the change and > alteration of consciousness, there arise in him sorrow..." etc > Samyutta > Book 3 > > OK Found some references.... Still a different format but closer... > > From Connected Discourses of the Buddha page 1005 -- 1006... > > "Bhikkhus, eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise." > > The key phrase being -- "becoming otherwise." > > This is repeated for virtually any phenomenal contingency. Oops, just > noticed same formula as first example. LOL > > Tired now. I'll post you when I find more but they are strewn throughout > the Suttas. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks, TG. Definitely so. ------------------------------------------ > > TG > > ===================== With metta, Howard #73769 From: "colette" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:27 pm Subject: Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) ksheri3 Good Day Jonothan Abbott, WRONG WRONG WRONG! Theory and practice are surely intertwined so deeply that they can never seperate, thus the two shall meet since it is unlikely that they can seperate. Do you hear that little voice whispering in your ear "the same object", "identicle", etc.? I liked a lot of the rest of the message besides the last remark you made. Shall we taste the icing? Ya never know, there may be an AVERAGE WHITE BAND around and they'll likely start playing "CUT THE CAKE" at any moment. ;) ---------------------------------- Speaking of Savory: here you go, > You obviously haven't been reading my posts of late :-(( :-(( > > In a recent post to Nidhi I said: > "I think you'll find that people here who make reference to dhammas > arising and falling away in an instant do so on the basis of their > reading of the Tipitaka, and are not claiming personal direct experience > of the momentary nature of dhammas." colette: that's great, don't mess with it. But I speak to late and you've gone and out done yourself, see below. ---------------------- > > So the answer is neither of the 2 options you mention above (direct > personal experience or adherence to a theory). colette: this could've been an entirely seperate point but you've placed in with another point so lets just plod through it. I contend that "personal experience" is the dual nature of "theory" and I've found through my own study that they both play the roles of CAUSE and EFFECT at different times. Here we get into the memorization of texts and their concepts since if the practioner has them memorized then when they show themselves it is such a great experience to actually recognize what has been seen. This also goes to the Mahamudra but that's another story. ---------------------------------- It is simply a > restatement of what they understand the texts to say, based on a reading > of those texts, as assisted by whatever level of developed understanding > there may be. colette: this is the example that needs developement since we see this same behavior every day at all levels of society, everywhere. People naturally distrust and so they distrust what they read. However they are so insecure and so self-destructive that they hold onto the theory in their heads just in case a moment arises where they can apply it and not look like the plastic and empty barbie & ken dolls they were made to be through the educational system or an apprenticeship period before moving on to journeyman, etc. see process psychology. ----------------------------- > But I hope you are not questioning the value of analysing and discussing > what is stated in the texts, as best as one understands them. Of > course, this is not to negate in any sense the value of direct > understanding. colette: here comes a good trip, are you doing magic mushrooms? > But the intellectual appreciation of the teachings will > always precede (and support) the realisation of them, surely? > colette: NOT A CHANCE IN HELL! Intellectual appreciation is nothing more than taking this before taking that. I have been having one great time practicing kaballah based magik and shamanistic magik on my own, without any stinking bother from any freakin' idiots for more than 27 years. I have enjoyed the cloak of ignorance from the public and have taken the scorn they extend to me as they delusion that they have created for me without my workings. It is because, resultant from, their ignorance and stupidity that I have enjoyed nothing but absolute freedom and security to practice my beliefs and theories. How dare you suggest that there is some man-made machine and assembly line that must first be pacified and gratified before there is any realization of rigpa? ------------------------- > > > But if those folks "REALLY" (and I mean REALLY) "SEE" this, then I have to > > tip my hat to them (if I was wearing a hat) as they are incredibly more > > insightful and aware then I am. (Not that that's saying much.) ;-) > > > > I suppose it'd be possible to divide folks here into 2 groups: those who > are inclined to talk in terms of their own experience, and those who > like to discuss what's in the texts. Never the twain shall meet, > perhaps ;-)) colette: as we say in the Golden Dawn: every ending is nothing more than a begining and all beginings are just endings. Do ya think there's any relationship to the iconography of the 1st card of the Major Arcana: the magician where the pictograph is of a Juggler? when you suggest dividing the community into two groups it is you sir that is placing his chair up on high and dictating the adherence to DUALITY! didn't a mythological character named Asmodeus, no, Mephistopheles, no Lucifer, no Satan, in one of those grandiose stories (like the fish story about the size of the one that gotta way) where this Satan goes for what they call THE FALL, and where we can see many representations in the American televison industry depicting this same character taking the fall for the chosen actions they take for themselves. I ponder your pathetic existence at this very moment considering that you may be one of those quails that Dick Cheney loves putting in a prison, a fenced in yard, then goes hunting: "look I got 'em in the corner". <.....> toodles, colette #73770 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Howard In a message dated 6/26/2007 3:36:24 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: Yes. The phrases "changing" and "becoming otherwise" do carry the sense of persisting-while-sense of persisting-while-changing. That, actually, gross conglomerates. I also think it is valid for namas and rupas, but I consider all these as conventional, and differing only in complexity of mental processing. The terminology of "persisting while changing" is also merely conventional, for there is no real thing that persists but changes, for once "changed", the original is no longer there! The problem, as I see it, is in thinking that there is any separate, identifiable "thing" there to begin with at all! ............................... I agree. Its just a teaching tool for conveying a higher meaning. Also, the "changing while persisting" is probably my memory from older PTS translations which I read for years before BB's were available. BB probably has a "cleaner" way of putting it. Still, the formula I remember seeing it most in is between arising and ceasing. Later days. TG #73771 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - Just one comment, near the end. In a message dated 6/26/07 6:32:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > In a message dated 6/26/2007 3:36:24 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > upasaka@... writes: > > Howard: > Yes. The phrases "changing" and "becoming otherwise" do carry the > sense of persisting-while-sense of persisting-while-changing. That, > actually, > gross conglomerates. I also think it is valid for namas and rupas, but I > consider > all these as conventional, and differing only in complexity of mental > processing. The terminology of "persisting while changing" is also merely > conventional, for there is no real thing that persists but changes, for > once > "changed", > the original is no longer there! The problem, as I see it, is in thinking > that > there is any separate, identifiable "thing" there to begin with at all! > > > > ............................... > > I agree. Its just a teaching tool for conveying a higher meaning. > > Also, the "changing while persisting" is probably my memory from older PTS > translations which I read for years before BB's were available. BB > probably > has a "cleaner" way of putting it. > > Still, the formula I remember seeing it most in is between arising and > ceasing. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh! I think that may be commentarial material pertaining to three stages of a rupa: arising, persisting while changing, and declining. --------------------------------------------- > > Later days. > > TG > > ========================= With metta, Howard #73772 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Howard No no. This is material from the Suttas. Not notes, not commentaries. I'll find you references later. TG In a message dated 6/26/2007 5:49:51 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > Also, the "changing while persisting" is probably my memory from older PTS > translations which I read for years before BB's were available. BB > probably > has a "cleaner" way of putting it. > > Still, the formula I remember seeing it most in is between arising and > ceasing. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh! I think that may be commentarial material pertaining to three stages of a rupa: arising, persisting while changing, and declining. #73773 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... #73774 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:36 pm Subject: PRINCIPLES of Dhamma. A reference from the Suttas (Retitled Post) TGrand458@... In a message dated 6/26/2007 7:25:58 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard, Sarah, All In looking for other references I found this in Connected Discourses page 572 "When, Bhikkhus, a noble disciple thus understands volitional formations, their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation, this is knowledge of the PRINCIPLE. By means of this PRINCIPLE that is seen, understood, immediately attained, fathomed, he applies the method to the past and to the future. This is his knowledge of entailment." This talk of PRINCIPLE is applied in various other applications in this passage. This is the type of thing I mean when talking about understanding the "principles" of conditionality. TG #73775 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:14 pm Subject: Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) scottduncan2 Dear TG, All, Regarding: "Friends, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and relinquishing of desire, lust, delight, craving, attraction, and clinging, AND OF MENTAL STANDPOINTS, adherences, and underlying tendencies regarding the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, and things cognizable through eye-consciousness, I have understood that my mind is liberated." MN 112 The Pali: ...Katha.m jaanato panaayasmato katha.m passato imesu chasu ajjhattikabaahiresu aayatanesu anupaadaaya aasavehi citta.m vimuttanti: kii.naasavassa bhikkhave, bhikkhuno vusitavato katakara.niiyassa ohitabhaarassa anupattasadatthassa parikkhii.nabhavasa~n~nojanassa sammada~n~naavimuttassa ayamanudhammo hoti veyyaakara.naaya: cakkhusmi.m aavuso, ruupe cakkhuvi~n~naa.ne cakkhuvi~n~naa.navi~n~naatabbesu dhammesu yo chando, yo raago, yaa nandi, yaa ta.nhaa, ye ca upayuupaadaanaa cetaso adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa, tesa.m khayaa viraagaa nirodhaa caagaa pa.tinissaggaa vimutta.m me cittanti pajaanaami... TG: "It seems to me that some in this group prescribe a massive build-up of 'mental standpoints' regarding the so-called 'ultimate realities.' The Buddha, on the other hand, prescribes to break down and eject such standpoints." Scott: The operative word seems to be the compound: "adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa" Do you know what it means exactly? I don't myself, but here are the three words making up the compound (PTS PED): "Adhi.t.thaana (nt.)...1. decision, resolution, self -- determination, will...2. mentioned in bad sense with abhinivesa and anusaya, obstinacy, prejudice and bias M i.136; iii.31, 240; S ii.17; iii.10, 135, 194. -- As adj. ( -- Ëš) applying oneself to, bent on A iii.363. -- 3. looking after, management, direction, power..." "Abhinivesa [abhi + nivesa, see nivesa2 & cp. nivesana] "settling in", i. e. wishing for, tendency towards ( -- Ëš), inclination, adherence; as adj. liking, loving, being given or inclined to...Often combd. with adhi.t.thaana ... aabhinivesa adherence to one's dogmas, as one of the 4 Ties: see kaayagantha and cp" "Anusaya...Bent, bias, proclivity, the persistance of a dormant or latent disposition, predisposition, tendency. Always in bad sense. In the oldest texts the word usually occurs absolutely, without mention of the cause or direction of the bias. Or in the triplet obstinacy, prejudice and bias (adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa)...Occasionally a source of the bias is mentioned. Thus pride...ignorance lust and hatred. We have a list of seven anusaya's, the above five and delusion and craving for rebirth. Hence -- forward these lists govern the connotation of the word; but it would be wrong to put that connotation back into the earlier passages..." Does anyone know what this compound actually means in the context of the sutta above? Sincerely, Scott. #73776 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 8:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide avalo1968 Hello Andrew, You comment below was important to why we see the world so differently: Andrew: Sorry, you've lost me here. Are you saying that Dhamma study hasn't changed you (but practice has)? I'm finding it hard to separate the two in a meaningful way. Maybe you can elaborate? Robert A: Let me elaborate. Dhamma study is important - to learn the teachings. It is also important to consider how what you learn in your study enters the fabric of your day to day life? There is a teachings that says everything is impermanent. There is also a teaching that says that practicing metta brings peace and joy. For me, as I am today, hearing that everything is impermanent doesn't not reduce my tendency to cling to things particularly. I can see that it appears to be true, but I still cling. I can also try to put the teachings on metta into practice and see that they do in fact bring peace and joy - right now in my daily life. I can also do meditation and see the effect that has on my experience of life. Andrew: No, no ... Dhammapala is suggesting that our perception of choices is illusory, that Arahants don't make choices (e.g. they are incapable of killing - there is simply no choice involved. Only action/abstention. "Choices" are "I" driven things arising from ignorance - and they should be put in quotes! - they are not the way out of samsara.) Robert A: I need to make choices everyday. I do not know why this is controversial. You make choices everyday as well. That is part of life. It sounds like you are separating life from the way out of samsara. I think they are one and the same. Everyday I have a choice of how I speak to someone or if I do something harmful. You had a choice when you wrote your reply to me whether to use language that was gentle or abusive. It is on the strength of these choices that we progress spiritually or not, that we confuse our minds or settle them down. Have you noticed this? It is true that all the choices I have made before influence my capacity to make the right choices now, but everything is not determinism. There is freedom to act to change the trajectory of your life. I think you can see this operating in your own life right now, if you would look. Of course, now someone will ask - OK, who is acting and making these choices? Isn't it all an illusion of self? What if it is? Does that make harmful actions less hurtful or a lie less of a lie? Ask your roommate if it matters how your illusion of self lives its life. When I make choices the Dhamma that helps me make those choices is the Dhamma of generousity, patience, mental development, and compassion. It is more important to the people I contact every day that I do this rather than study another chapter of Adhidhamma. Andrew: Yes, we do our best. But only if all the necessary conditions for "our best" co-arise in the present moment (when else could they arise?). Otherwise, we are like a hen sitting on sterile eggs that will never hatch out, no matter how much we wish them to. Robert A: OK, but try this. Make a serious effort to do metta meditation for a month and see if the necessary conditions don't arise more frequently. With metta, Robert A. #73777 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) sarahprocter... Oh Terry G, A poem a day Keeps the rants away:-) So keep them flowing, And I'll wake up glowing!! .... NEW TG" >"Realities" is a view, That doesn't become you, But I have to agree, Its not about me. ............ ......... ......... ...... S: I call it 'reality', You call it 'hilarity', But 'in the seen, There's merely the seen!' ............ ......... ......... ......... ... New TG: >"Cittas" and "Dhammas," Are just small chariots and Lamas, These views of things, Self-view it brings, >"Namas" and "Rupas," Or Chariots or Stupas, They're tools to "see," Actuality. .... S: 'Actuality', 'Reality' 'Morality', 'Totality' Just rupas, namas, Present dhammas! .... TG: >These perturbations, Are imaginations, Of empty states, With dire fates. .... S: Such wit, such know-how A great magic show now. The path of fascination, It's all cittas' imagination*. .... TG: >The "Teachings show, These views must go, We're dying now, And not too slow. .... S: My witch's brew, Shows me the view- That cittas die, All else is a lie. .... TG: >"Energies," Are Just the same, A tool for "me," To quit this game. .... S: All these tools Are fuel for fools; But for the wise, Nibbana's the prize! .... TG: >No essence lies, In anything, No state exists, As its own thing. .... S: Such lofty heights, You have your rights- In Mahayana, Even Pranayama! .... TG: >I do not doubt, That you're sincere, But "realities" views, Seem very queer. .... S: Oh, 'Perplexed in C.A.' Moha's in the way. The blind is down, That's why you frown! .... TG: >"Realities," Is not The Path, Its getting late, Time for a bath. ..... S: Take a bath, Still follow the path! Realities still rule, While you splash or drool!! .... S: Time to pack. Let's see - cauldron, wand, hat, frog's legs, spell-book....what else? Ah, the 'goal-less mantra'?? Maybe not, no more room:-) ... NEW TG: Its all the imaginations that this "delusional system" is propped-up by. <...>LOL Stirring up trouble eh? LOL .... *S: The imaginations conjured up by the cittas. Here's one last bit of 'trouble' from the brew for your cogitations: "SN 22:95 'Phena Sutta' (Bodhi translations)" "...Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: a bhikkhu inspects it, ponders it, and carefully investigates it, and it would appear to him to be void, hollow, insubstantial. For what substance could there be in consciousness?" .... S: No essence, no substance, no atta. However, whatever kind of consciousness there is, it is a dhamma (a reality) which rises and falls away faster than any simile. “Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion.” "Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind-made are they." (Dhp 1) "Manopubba'ngamaa dhammaa Manose.t.thaa manomayaa" Metta, Sarah ======= #73778 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Sarah Have a good trip. Please don't over-interpret the arrival and departure times. It may prevent you from arriving at your destination. ;-) You're pretty funny, (in a dire way.) But who the hell is Terry G? LOL TG In a message dated 6/26/2007 10:35:27 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Oh Terry G, A poem a day Keeps the rants away:-) So keep them flowing, And I'll wake up glowing!! .... NEW TG" >"Realities" is a view, That doesn't become you, But I have to agree, Its not about me. ............ ......... ......... ...... #73779 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:26 pm Subject: Re: Serious about Dhamma? Serious about one's defilements? sukinderpal Hi Phil (and Jon), I just read this (yes quite behind), and would like to respond to just one paragraph. Phil you express your impression of Acharn Sujin's interpretation and way of teaching. As far as `impressions' go, yours and mine are just that, if not informed by panna be it of direct or intellectual level, then we are only talking as ignorant worldlings. I was very `impressed' by the way Jon formulated his thoughts and thought that this time, it might cause you to reconsider your position. But apparently it hasn't and so I was wrong. :-( But since you express your impression of A. Suin's method, then allow me to express mine of yours as well. :-) ====================== Jon: > I think there is a clear reason for this. Dana, sila and samatha, > although of great merit, do not in and of themselves lead out of > samsara. > A practice of the development of these forms of kusala in isolation > of the development of satipatthana (for example, in a person > who had never heard the teachings) would likely bring with it an > increase in the idea of a self who was developing greater kusala, > i.e., more wrong view. Phil: Right. Fortunately I have heard the teaching, and know where the path must lead. Sukin: Sounds reasonable but….. You do admit to not caring about whether deeper and more subtle forms of wrong view are taking effect, don't you? If so and there indeed is some wrong view behind your practices, how is this going to lead to any lessening in the future? When you talk about believing in kamma and rebirth, you obviously are thinking in terms of `someone' experiencing the effect of kamma and being reborn somewhere. How is this going to ultimately change to the level which sees kamma / vipaka in terms of momentary cittas, given that you presently not only `ignore' such considerations, but in fact discourage it? ======================== Phil: But I refuse to try to get ahead by forcing paramattha level understanding into my practice just because it is necessary for real liberation. Sukin: What do you mean by "forcing"? Are you `forcing' your theory of sila > samadhi > panna onto your moment to moment experiences? If not, then what is the difference between these two outlooks in terms of them being applicable / not applicable to anyone? Perhaps the problem was and is that you *seek* to apply, such that in the one it doesn't seem to work but in the other it does? If so, this according to my `impression', is the problem. In the past you approached A. Suin's interpretation with `desire for results' (I know I've said this before) and this seemed to work as per any readjustment of aims and goals along the way. However when you woke up to the more "desirable" goal, which may more or less be characterized as a `need to be a better person' and `having a more peaceful relationship with the world', this caused you to judge A. Sujin's method as being wrong. When in fact what you might have concluded is that like everyone else, that due to the great extent of accumulated akusala as compared to kusala; this can be dealt with only very, very gradually, i.e. lifetimes over. So in fact it appears, that you did not understand A. Sujin from the start. To begin with, none of us are `forcing' any ideas into our experiences. In fact if you looked closely, you will see "forced application", even to study, as being one of the things cautioned about. Being `Natural', is the key! On experiencing any object through one of the six doorways, we are reminded about what have been read or heard, is this `forcing'?! If when anger arises that we normally take for self and lasting, one is reminded about impermanence and the anger immediately ceases, is this `forcing'?! I think Phil, the problem was yours, `you' were forcing application with aims past the present moment into ideas about the past and future, i.e. personal relationships etc, and how this could be made to improve. In other words, you had high expectations beyond what was conditioned to arise and fall in the moment and instead of learning something from it, you sought another method. But that is only my impression. :-) ===================== Phil: That is just impatience. I find it really ironic that AS talks about people being impatient. Sukin: Now do you get a glimpse as to who in fact might be impatient?! And do you see the irony, "Phil expected unrealistic results and when this method failed to deliver, he opted for one which did and believing that now he is patient". But sorry Phil, if it did, it must be purely illusory. It is normal that we will in our ignorance, think and believe anything! The enemy is seen and dressed up like we do a mannequin (evil), then we knock it down with a sword (sila practice). However the mannequin, sword and the victor are all imaginings made to fit together to give an `impression' ;-), of being on the right track. Good story, but one in which ignorance, self view and desire are being encouraged. My impression again…. ====================== Phil: An excessive interest in deep topics such as bhavanga cittas, to give one example, is nothing but impatience and excessive desire for penetrating wisdom, in my opinion. Sukin: What is so deep about bhavanga? Just because it is never experienced does not make it any deeper than seeing hearing thinking etc. This should in fact give you an idea as to how we consider the theory. It makes sense to me that the cittas during deep sleep must be different to those of the sense process. It also makes sense that the kamma which conditions the rebirth consciousness must condition many more cittas in the form of "life", hence `life continuum'. It doesn't make sense to me that other kammas which bear fruit as sense door experiences will not have to be interspersed by vipaka cittas which is particularly tied to the one which conditioned *this* life, as human being or whatever. In fact it seems more like these other vipaka cittas, intersperse the life continuum. What is so mysterious about this?! But again while I am happy to knowing this at the intellectual level, you seem to be coming from thinking about it as something to `be experienced'. ========================= Phil: Good to know about such things, but to believe that seeing into them, or momentary cittas of any kind, has immediate relevance to one's practice is impatience, in my experience. Sukin: As far as I'm concerned, this theory about momentary cittas and bhavanga is as I've indicated above, not about any need to *experience* them as such. As Jon recently wrote to Nidhi that no one can experience individual cittas, but when they are, the realities of both Nama and Rupa, are experienced by virtue of many arising and falling in close proximity. In fact satipatthana, before vipassana nanas, is experiencing nimitas of these realities, not individual units. The theory however, helps us not to go the wrong way into thinking for example, that nama and rupa lasts, or that seeing, hearing etc. could arise more or less together, that in fact there are bhavanga cittas in between. Some `meditators' have suggested that cittas arise and fall with varying durations of time. This it appears, is in order to justify their practice of `noting' and experiencing those objects which seem to last longer than a fraction of a finger snap. But the Abhidhamma denies them of this perspective. I wonder if your opposition is not ultimately due to the same reason. Ideas which if proved wrong, point to cherished practices also being wrong….? As I said, all my impressions. If wrong, you are partly to blame since you haven't so far responded to other impressions I had and expressed earlier. ;-) Metta, Sukinder #73780 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] sarahprocter... Hi Howard (& James), --- upasaka@... wrote: > Sarah, don't you think your "appreciating life....and death now, > at > each moment" is also about "you"? Of course, I don't refer only to > "Sarah" when > I ask this. .... S: I think you raise a good point. I would say, it depends on the citta and only panna can tell. If there is a 'trying to ensure a good life....', a 'trying to have good states', the attachment seems rather obvious. When there is an appreciation or understanding (at any level) of 'life....and death now', this was a natural reflection, not a 'trying to have' reflection. Of course there can also be 'trying to' reflect on death and so on wrapped up in attachment too. The clinging pops in all the time. ... >Nearly everything we do until full liberation smacks of > "me", I'd > say, and I think it useful to keep that in mind in order to not lose > sight of > the goal and to keep ourselves appropriately "humble". .... S: A good point! Whether it be by way of plain attachment to me, conceit or self view, it's very, very common! This is where sacca parami, truthfulness is very important. .... >Of course, we do > have > our better moments - even some occasional, very pure moments, but for > the most > part we are all enmeshed in self, shackled by self, and fooled by self. > We > need at first, I think, to avoid the worst of "being fooled" by not > underestimating the power of self-sense over our perception and emotion > - the power to warp > and pervert these. .... S: Well pointed out again. I think the most important is to see the sakkaya-ditthi when it arises. This is the grossest kind of defilement and the one that all other wrong views depend on. Whilst we pursue the 20 kinds of sakkaya-ditthi and live with an idea that 'we' are truly in command, there's no chance that other attachments and conceits will ever be attenuated, let alone eradicated. Thanks for your helpful feedback, Howard. Metta, Sarah ====== #73781 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue sarahprocter... Hi Robert A, --- Robert wrote: > Thank you again for your reply. I think we got a little closer to > understanding each other this time, but we still have a ways to go. ... S:-) .... > Sarah: Let them be known by being aware of such dhammas when they are > experienced. For example, we can talk about self-view now, but as you > often point out, this is just talk or book study. The only thing which > will really make a difference is to be aware of this particular dhamma > when it 'pops up'! > > Robert A: Yes, but what I am trying to get at is the *quality* of this > knowing or awareness - is it intellectual, intuitive, ... .... S: I think that has to be the hearing and intellectual considering of dhammas first. For example, if we have never heard that seeing consciousness sees visible object and only visible object, there isn't going to be any awareness or direct understanding of either seeing or visible object. Having heard the truth about the dhammas, as taught by the Buddha, however, there can be conditions for direct, 'intuitive' awareness and knowing of such dhamas to arise, when they are apparent. The awareness and understanding have to develop on and on to really know dhammas more and more precisely as they are. .... <..> > Robert A: I do agree that seeing is different from evaluating or > matching, which is why I have less faith in the value of reading as a > prelude to seeing. Again, it is about going beyond words to your > actual experience - developing the ability to do that - and reading > about what is real plays a very small part in that development > compared to other practices. .... S: I don't think it's a matter of just 'reading as a prelude to seeing.' If it were, then all the Pali experts would be enlightened. Not the case! It's a matter of hearing (suta maya panna), considering (cinta maya panna) and development (bhavana maya panna). All of these have to be with a level of panna (wisdom) to be of any benefit. Not a question of quantity, but quality of the hearing/reading/considering. As we know, for Sariputta, one verse was enough. For us, a little more is needed:-). Yes, I agree that it is 'about going beyond words' to 'actual experience'. I think that reading/hearing what is real is essential however. No one follows the path without coming across the Buddha's teachings. I think that other practices are just that - other practices. They may be helpful in many ways for many goals, but unless it is the development of present awareness and insight into conditioned namas and rupas, it's not going to lead to any satipatthana. .... > Robert A: What I believe is that being able to see and clearing the > things that get in the way depends on cultivating certain qualities of > mind, and this cultivation does not come from reading books - in many > ways reading and intellectualizing about Dhamma creates the > obstructions. ... S: I quoted a passage the other day (to TG & Howard) from the Satipatthana Sutta with regard to awareness of consciousness (cittas). It starts with awareness of attachment and then refers to consciousness with hate, with ignorance....'shrunken state of consciousness', 'distracted state of consciousness' and so on as well as your 'certain qualities'. In other words, it doesn't say that awareness has to wait until the garbage has been taken out. The awareness itself will lead to the garbage being taken out. If there are conditions for reading and intellectualizing and obstructions arising, so be it. The different kinds of consciousness can be known at such times too. If there are conditions for other activities, the same applies. So instead of giving so much attention to the activity, the 'situation', I see it more as a development of understanding (at any level)of dhammas now. ... > Robert A: No, my company is not all that delightful and perhaps you > miss the point of what I was saying. > > What I was saying was that the development of skillful qualities of > mind is inseparable from developing the ability to see and that it is > only in developing skillful qualities that ultimately Robert > disappears. In my view there is no separation between developing > skillful qualities and the development of an understanding of all and > any such dhammas as transitory and not belonging to any self. If you > understand this from my point of view you will understand why I > believe in doing specific practices as a path to liberation, not just > reading and studying, and maybe in this point we have clarified our > point of disagreement as clearly as we ever will. .... S: Yes, I did understand you clearly. I think it is partly a matter of emphasis and partly a difference of view about the path. Again, I don't see 'reading and studying' as a practice. It makes no difference to me whether I'm reading or swimming in terms of 'practice'. .... > Robert A: I believe it makes all the difference in the world. I > believe that cultivating such qualities as metta or generousity is the > path to seeing the truth and that cultivating such qualities as anger > or greed is the path to confusion. It really does matter. And it is > in seeing the truth that detachment arises and clinging falls away. .... S: Someone who has never heard the Buddha's word, including the great disciples before they came across it, might develop immeasurable metta and generosity. But it's not the path and not the 'seeing the truth' if even such dhammas as these are not seen for what they are - conditioned, impermanent, unsatisfactory and not-self. Sooner or later all dhammas have to be seen for what they are including anger, greed and confusion. Also, all those mundane dhammas stressed over and over again - the sense objects, the sense consciousnesses and so on. I'd say that this is really what matters, otherwise there is no detachment developed from the idea of self and all the pure qualities developed are taken for being 'mine' and 'me'. .... > Thank you again for your replies. Maybe we have finally gotten to the > crux of our different points of view. ... S: Yes, I think so too. Like Andrew said, I think it's very beneficial to have friends offer different points of view as you, TG, Phil, James and many others do so eloquently. It keeps it 'balanced' and interesting and gives us all food to chew on, helping us to reflect further on the teachings as Nina also said.... Believe me, I'm not just saying this to be polite - it's what I really find. Metta, Sarah ========= #73782 From: "Andrew" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:29 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > Robert A: > OK, but try this. Make a serious effort to do metta meditation for a > month and see if the necessary conditions don't arise more frequently. Hi again Robert Thanks for your nice post and good advice. I'm sorry but my time is up again and I'm not sure either of us is really communicating here, so I'll let things rest for a while, if you don't mind. I hope you stick around at DSG. Best wishes Andrew #73783 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:08 am Subject: Re: PRINCIPLES of Dhamma. A reference from the Suttas (Retitled Post) christine_fo... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > In a message dated 6/26/2007 7:25:58 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > TGrand458@... writes: > > Hi Howard, Sarah, All > > In looking for other references I found this in Connected Discourses page 572 > > "When, Bhikkhus, a noble disciple thus understands volitional formations, > their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation, this > is > knowledge of the PRINCIPLE. By means of this PRINCIPLE that is seen, > understood, immediately attained, fathomed, he applies the method to the > past and to > the future. This is his knowledge of entailment." > > This talk of PRINCIPLE is applied in various other applications in this > passage. > > This is the type of thing I mean when talking about understanding the > "principles" of conditionality. > > TG Hello TG, The term principle is explained on the previous page in Note 102 as: Dhamme ~naa.na. Spk explains the Dhamma here as the Four Noble Truths (catusaccadhamma) or path knowledge (magga~naa.ndhamma). metta Chris --The trouble is that you think you have time--- #73784 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:51 am Subject: About Ajahn Sukin!!! rameshat27 Dear Sarah,Nina and Jon, *I read ur couple of discussions with Ajahn Sukin...I find them very usefull and really they are fullfilled with truth, and have essence in them..My curiosity increasing about Ajahn Sujin.. * *I searched on net ..but i do not found her videos or anything...* ********************************************************************************\ **************************** I read the autobiography of *Ajahn Thatte*...the name is "*Autobiography of forest Monk*"...Really insprirable and guide to new ones... I remember Ajahn Thatte everyday before going to read any article on dhamma..such a great impact of him.. *i had read his autobiography in 2003..but still i remember his concept as I just read his Autobiography*.. ********************************************************************************\ **************************** I know about *Ajahn Brahm* from Australia...his book *Mindfullness,Bliss and Beyond*...is a guide to theravada practitioner.. I know about *Ajahn Budhhadasa,Ajahn Sumedho, Ajahn Chah.... :=>Ajahn Brahmis the student of Ajahn Chah.. * *Ajahn Chah is one of the great master of the Thai Forest Tradition...* ** *Ajahn Brahm is one of the new generation of Westerners who have studied, practised and mastered an important range of bhuddhist studies and now offer them to sincere practitioners across the modren world...In his book Mindfullness,Bliss and Beyond.... a set of teachings for developing and deepening meditation, aimed perticularly at attaining absorption, or jhana samadhi, and opening to the insights that can follow it... * ********************************************************************************\ **************************** *If u have any kind of video cds of discourse of Ajahn Sukin ..then can u sent them to me on my address..also her biography and any literature....* * ********************************************************************************\ **************************** * *I had gone through the first chapter of Abhiddhama in Daily life...by Dear Nina and trying to answer the questions she had given at the end of chapter..As the reader try to answer these questions, he/she come to know..how much he/she understands..a great method * * ********************************************************************************\ **************************** * *metta* *************** *ramesh* *=========* #73785 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Ajahn Sukin!!! sarahprocter... Dear Ramesh, Ramesh Patil wrote: > Dear Sarah,Nina and Jon, > > *I read ur couple of discussions with Ajahn Sukin...I find them very > usefull > and really they are fullfilled with truth, and have essence in them..My > curiosity increasing about Ajahn Sujin.. * ... Sarah: I don't know if you are confusing Ajahn Sujin and Sukin, short for Sukinder. Not the same:-)) See the DSG photo album (on left of the home page). Also, pls add your own photo! Anyone else too!! .... > *I searched on net ..but i do not found her videos or anything...* ... S: I don't think there are any videos. Go to www.dhammastudygroup.org and scroll down to 'audio' under the archives to listen to her. Also, you might find more on this website: http://www.dhammahome.com/ ... > *If u have any kind of video cds of discourse of Ajahn Sukin ..then can > u > sent them to me on my address..also her biography and any > literature....* .... S: Check if you can download the audio I mentioned above. If you can't let me know and send me your mail address. You may find her biography on the dhammahome website. .... > *I had gone through the first chapter of Abhiddhama in Daily life...by > Dear > Nina and trying to answer the questions she had given at the end of > chapter..As the reader try to answer these questions, he/she come to > know..how much he/she understands..a great method * ... S: I know Nina will be very happy to hear this. Why not share (the questions) and your answers here in a series? Then others can comment, including Nina. It's helpful for us all. Metta, Sarah ======== #73786 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 3:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [4] sarahprocter... Dear Ramesh, All your comments in this thread are most helpful and show you really considered the discussion carefully. Thank you so much for your keen interest. You inspire to add another installment when I have time. I hope the floods are lessening in Mumbai and that your connections are all back. --- Ramesh Patil wrote: > R:-Definitely everyone responds depends on the different accumulations > ..and > we should have a steady mind, ready to experience any reality...very > well > said. It is always matter for everyone it's unpleasant or pleasant. But > because of this we increased our own miseries in terms of clinging or > hate..yes nicely explained so why to matter for unpleasant or > pleasant..as > the truth is that there is nothing...so just to experience as an object > that's all, nothing more than that...really a great explanation..but > difficult to live and implement.. .... S: Beautiful and so true, Ramesh! The same for your futher comments. Metta, Sarah ========= #73787 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga study guide avalo1968 Hello Andrew, I enjoyed our conversation. Robert A. #73788 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtue avalo1968 Hello Sarah, Thank you once again for your reply. I think that we both have made our case as best we can for our respective positions on this and what remains is for us to consider the other's point of view. I will consider everything you have said, and maybe someday I will see things differently than I do. I appreciate your efforts on my behalf. With metta, Robert A. #73789 From: "Ramesh Patil" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] About Ajahn Sukin!!! rameshat27 Dear Sarah, sorry for miss words..it is Ajahn Sujin.. I will upload my photos..in DSG.. I watch the album of DSG, all r so nice... metta ******* ramesh ====== On 6/27/07, sarah abbott wrote: <...> > Sarah: I don't know if you are confusing Ajahn Sujin and Sukin, short for > Sukinder. Not the same:-)) See the DSG photo album (on left of the home > page). Also, pls add your own photo! Anyone else too!! <...> #73790 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/26/07 8:59:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard > > No no. This is material from the Suttas. Not notes, not commentaries. > I'll find you references later. > > TG > ============================ Okay, good. I'll be interested in seeing what you (or others) can find. BTW, I'll be in Texas for a week starting Friday, but I'll maintain some internet contact while there - just reduced. With metta, Howard #73791 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 6/26/07 9:25:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGrand458@... writes: > Hi Howard, Sarah, All > > In looking for other references I found this in Connected Discourses page > 572 > > "When, Bhikkhus, a noble disciple thus understands volitional formations, > their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation, this > is > knowledge of the PRINCIPLE. By means of this PRINCIPLE that is seen, > understood, immediately attained, fathomed, he applies the method to the > past and to > the future. This is his knowledge of entailment." > > This talk of PRINCIPLE is applied in various other applications in this > passage. > > This is the type of thing I mean when talking about understanding the > "principles" of conditionality. > > TG > ========================== The word 'principle' refers to a general, often complex, (approximately) true conditional statement that expresses an idea and serves as a rule. It is a particular sort of linguistic phenomenon, like the principle of relativity - something that is stated.and has application. (A trivial example: "What goes up must come down.") With metta, Howard #73792 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 7:59 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] buddhatrue Hi Sarah, I am just going to pop in with a quick post. I probably won't continue with any debate as I don't have the time. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard (& James), > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > > Sarah, don't you think your "appreciating life....and death now, > > at > > each moment" is also about "you"? Of course, I don't refer only to > > "Sarah" when > > I ask this. > .... > S: I think you raise a good point. I would say, it depends on the citta > and only panna can tell. If there is a 'trying to ensure a good life....', > a 'trying to have good states', the attachment seems rather obvious. When > there is an appreciation or understanding (at any level) of 'life....and > death now', this was a natural reflection, not a 'trying to have' > reflection. Of course there can also be 'trying to' reflect on death and > so on wrapped up in attachment too. The clinging pops in all the time. Let me ask you a question: Do you wish for others a fortunate rebirth? If so, then the same reasons you wish for them a fortunate rebirth also apply to yourself. There is nothing selfish about wishing for yourself a fortunate rebirth just as you wish the same for others. Now, if you don't wish for others a fortunate rebirth, if you don't really care one way or the other about other's rebirth, then you lack compassion. I could quote a lot of suttas where the Buddha teaches the importance of a fortunate rebirth, and I doubt you could quote even one where the Buddha teaches we should be indifferent regarding one's rebirth. Metta, James #73793 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Digest Number 5555 jonoabb Hi Ren Rendal Mercer wrote: > These are all Ultimate Proclammated Fact presented in > theory formate. All coming from someone elses > experience. Translators will know this for sure, that > when ever you translate anything there is alway going > to be meaning missing. The translation functions to > bring what was felt, "seen" and/or experienc"ed" back > into the present to show/ explain for others to sort > of understand or experience. Truely not posssible and > the best that we can do to build a measure in insight > is to sit, watch and listen. How much sitting, just > simply watching and listening have we been doing. I > never come out here but I like to watch what people > say about this and that. > Thanks for coming out to make these comments. You are making the point I think that if we attempt to describe a truth that has been experienced by someone else but that we ourselves have not experienced then we will not be able to describe it with 100% accuracy. I agree with this. But I don't see why we shouldn't try, as long as we don't pretend it to be an experience of our own. There is great value in my opinion in discussing the truths found in the teachings, because discussion helps to identify one's misunderstandings. We may think we've understood something, but when we come to speak or write about it we realise that we haven't really understood it properly at all. So as well as watching and listening we need to ask questions or make comments ;-)) What do you think? Jon > #73794 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 8:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) jonoabb Hi Scott Thanks for the Pali and PED extracts on the term "adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa" (adhi.t.thaana + abhinivesa + anusayaa). My (uninformed) guess, going on the PED entry and the general context in the sutta, would be that it refers to wrong view. Any thoughts yourself? We could always ask a Pali expert like Ven Dhammananda. Jon Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear TG, All, > > Regarding: > > "Friends, with the destruction, fading away, cessation, giving up, and > relinquishing of desire, lust, delight, craving, attraction, and > clinging, AND OF MENTAL STANDPOINTS, adherences, and underlying > tendencies regarding the eye, forms, eye-consciousness, and things > cognizable through eye-consciousness, I have understood that my mind > is liberated." MN 112 > > The Pali: > > ...Katha.m jaanato panaayasmato katha.m passato imesu chasu > ajjhattikabaahiresu aayatanesu anupaadaaya aasavehi citta.m > vimuttanti: kii.naasavassa bhikkhave, bhikkhuno vusitavato > katakara.niiyassa ohitabhaarassa anupattasadatthassa > parikkhii.nabhavasa~n~nojanassa sammada~n~naavimuttassa ayamanudhammo > hoti veyyaakara.naaya: cakkhusmi.m aavuso, ruupe cakkhuvi~n~naa.ne > cakkhuvi~n~naa.navi~n~naatabbesu dhammesu yo chando, yo raago, yaa > nandi, yaa ta.nhaa, ye ca upayuupaadaanaa cetaso > adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa, tesa.m khayaa viraagaa nirodhaa > caagaa pa.tinissaggaa vimutta.m me cittanti pajaanaami... > > TG: "It seems to me that some in this group prescribe a massive > build-up of 'mental standpoints' regarding the so-called 'ultimate > realities.' The Buddha, on the other hand, prescribes to break down > and eject such standpoints." > > Scott: The operative word seems to be the compound: > > "adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa" > > Do you know what it means exactly? I don't myself, but here are the > three words making up the compound (PTS PED): > > "Adhi.t.thaana (nt.)...1. decision, resolution, self -- determination, > will...2. mentioned in bad sense with abhinivesa and anusaya, > obstinacy, prejudice and bias M i.136; iii.31, 240; S ii.17; iii.10, > 135, 194. -- As adj. ( -- Ëš) applying oneself to, bent on A iii.363. > -- 3. looking after, management, direction, power..." > > "Abhinivesa [abhi + nivesa, see nivesa2 & cp. nivesana] "settling in", > i. e. wishing for, tendency towards ( -- Ëš), inclination, adherence; > as adj. liking, loving, being given or inclined to...Often combd. with > adhi.t.thaana ... aabhinivesa adherence to one's dogmas, as one of the > 4 Ties: see kaayagantha and cp" > > "Anusaya...Bent, bias, proclivity, the persistance of a dormant or > latent disposition, predisposition, tendency. Always in bad sense. In > the oldest texts the word usually occurs absolutely, without mention > of the cause or direction of the bias. Or in the triplet obstinacy, > prejudice and bias (adhi.t.thaanaabhinivesaanusayaa)...Occasionally a > source of the bias is mentioned. Thus pride...ignorance lust and > hatred. We have a list of seven anusaya's, the above five and delusion > and craving for rebirth. Hence -- forward these lists govern the > connotation of the word; but it would be wrong to put that connotation > back into the earlier passages..." > > Does anyone know what this compound actually means in the context of > the sutta above? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > #73795 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Death - just like now! (Alan Driver's funeral) [1] upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Sarah) - In a message dated 6/27/07 11:00:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@... writes: > Hi Sarah, > > I am just going to pop in with a quick post. I probably won't > continue with any debate as I don't have the time. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > >Hi Howard (& James), > > > >--- upasaka@... wrote: > > > >> Sarah, don't you think your "appreciating life....and death > now, > >>at > >>each moment" is also about "you"? Of course, I don't refer only to > >>"Sarah" when > >>I ask this. > >.... > >S: I think you raise a good point. I would say, it depends on the citta > >and only panna can tell. If there is a 'trying to ensure a good > life....', > >a 'trying to have good states', the attachment seems rather obvious. > When > >there is an appreciation or understanding (at any level) of 'life....and > >death now', this was a natural reflection, not a 'trying to have' > >reflection. Of course there can also be 'trying to' reflect on death and > >so on wrapped up in attachment too. The clinging pops in all the time. > > > Let me ask you a question: Do you wish for others a fortunate rebirth? > If so, then the same reasons you wish for them a fortunate rebirth > also apply to yourself. There is nothing selfish about wishing for > yourself a fortunate rebirth just as you wish the same for others. > > Now, if you don't wish for others a fortunate rebirth, if you don't > really care one way or the other about other's rebirth, then you lack > compassion. > > I could quote a lot of suttas where the Buddha teaches the importance > of a fortunate rebirth, and I doubt you could quote even one where the > Buddha teaches we should be indifferent regarding one's rebirth. > > Metta, > James ============================ I think there are *degrees* to things. Until arahantship, mindstates are certainly imperfect, but they still can be relatively good, and they can become better! Motives vary, even from moment to moment. Perfection isn't required for progress, and, in fact, if there were already perfection there would be no need for progress. We begin where we are, and there is no other option. So, imperfection is to be recognized - it *needs* to be recognized, but we then need to DO something about that, namely following the Buddha's practice teachings for cultivating the mind. That we start in a state that is deeply infected with sense of self and ignorance is a fact - a fact that makes our remedial action all the more urgent. If our very imperfection were to make the removal of defilement impossible, then we would be stuck for good. (And wouldn't the Buddha's teaching then be a cruel joke!) No one can do the job for us. Buddhas only point the way. We must, indeed, be lamps/islands unto ourselves. So, while the desire to improve our current nature is infected by sense of self, that desire is also the necessary "motive force" for improvement. Our following of the Buddha's teachings is based certainly not on entirely pure chanda but on varyingly imperfect chanda, with motives mixed from moment to moment - chanda beset by varying degrees of self-oriented defilement. There is no choice in that. It is what it is. But following the practice teachings makes the needed changes - step by step, up the mountain, reaching vistas that are more and more clear, more and more pure, and ever more magnificent. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #73796 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: PRINCIPLES of Dhamma. A reference from the Suttas (Retitled... TGrand458@... Hi Chris, The context of this quote provides the information to understand its meaning. Understanding principles is understanding conditional consequences and applying that understanding to the PAST and FUTURE. Hence, one uses PRINCIPLES in applying insight in an analytical manner...in this case. TG In a message dated 6/27/2007 3:08:51 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, cforsyth1@... writes: > "When, Bhikkhus, a noble disciple thus understands volitional formations, > their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation, this > is > knowledge of the PRINCIPLE. By means of this PRINCIPLE that is seen, > understood, immediately attained, fathomed, he applies the method to the > past and to > the future. This is his knowledge of entailment." > > This talk of PRINCIPLE is applied in various other applications in this > passage. > > This is the type of thing I mean when talking about understanding the > "principles" of conditionality. > > TG Hello TG, The term principle is explained on the previous page in Note 102 as: Dhamme ~naa.na. Spk explains the Dhamma here as the Four Noble Truths (catusaccadhamma) or path knowledge (magga~naa.ndhamma)( metta Chris #73797 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 5:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] "Dhammas" and Impermanence (The Abhidhammikas perspective?) TGrand458@... Hi Howard No argument with your below. In fact, another nice capsulization. The point of the sutta below that I thought would be of interest to you, based on our prior discussions, is that "principles" are used to apply insight to the past and future...or other "non-experiences." This is generally the point I made last month and you have some questions about it. I was actually a little surprised, (due to my rustiness), to find a sutta not only providing the same meaning, but using the term principles in doing so. TG In a message dated 6/27/2007 6:59:36 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, upasaka@... writes: > "When, Bhikkhus, a noble disciple thus understands volitional formations, > their origin, their cessation, and the way leading to their cessation, this > is > knowledge of the PRINCIPLE. By means of this PRINCIPLE that is seen, > understood, immediately attained, fathomed, he applies the method to the > past and to > the future. This is his knowledge of entailment." > > This talk of PRINCIPLE is applied in various other applications in this > passage. > > This is the type of thing I mean when talking about understanding the > "principles" of conditionality. > > TG > ========================== The word 'principle' refers to a general, often complex, (approximately) true conditional statement that expresses an idea and serves as a rule. It is a particular sort of linguistic phenomenon, like the principle of relativity - something that is stated.and has application. (A trivial example: "What goes up must come down.") With metta, Howard #73798 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:47 am Subject: Energy and Impermanence TGrand458@... For Sarah, (All), Energy is simple, No controversy here, Your objection to the term, Is surely very queer. Energy is anything, With power to affect, Its merely what conditions do, Not new with all respect. "Energy" however, Makes it very clear, That conditions are dynamic, Moving to and near. Everything experienced, Is energy in progress, The push and pull of such, Impermanence at its best. The body wears away, The mind it wears out too, As energies disintegrate, The things that once we knew. By insight what we want, Is to understand what's norm, Impermanence is not magic, Its contacts changing form. Contacts are create, By energies push and pull, Four Great Elements can show, This to any fool. In accordance with conditions, The things that form take shape, Conditions are dynamic, All things will surely break. TG #73799 From: Rendal Mercer Date: Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:14 pm Subject: From unconsciousness to consciousness renmercer The invisible supports the visible, like all things there are things that are obvious with little or no investigation needed. Other things, whether seen or unseen, expereinced or never to be witnessed, all parts, all peices are still engaged with it's whole. That "whole" neither exists nor is non-existant. Like: Quanta, Nuclear, Atomic, Cellular, Molecular, Systematic, Beings. What is seen is only the obvious, the rest of it we place names like citta and cetasika but really al is already dissolved and re-projected on our minds like day is to night. Good luck in your journey.