#75400 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:52 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 11, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, As to vipåka-condition, citta and its accompanying cetasikas which are vipåka condition one another by being vipåka. The realities involved in vipåka-condition are phenomena which are conascent, arising at the same time. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XVII,89) that they assist one another “by effortless quiet”. They are merely vipåka, they have no other activity. The nature of vipåkacitta is altogether different from the nature of kusala citta and akusala citta which are active in the wholesome way or in the unwholesome way. Vipåkacitta and its accompanying cetasikas also condition one another by way of conascence-condition and by way of mutuality- condition (see Ch 5). In the planes where there are five khandhas (nåma and rúpa), vipåkacittas, except the five sense-cognitions, can produce rúpa which arises at the same time and which, according to the “Patthåna” (Faultless Triplet, Investigation Chapter, § 428), is also conditioned by the citta and cetasikas by way of vipåka-condition [1]. In the planes where there are five khandhas kamma produces at the first moment of life the patisandhi-citta which is vipåkacitta as well as rúpa. According to the “Paììhåna” (same section) citta and cetasikas condition at that moment kamma-produced rúpa by way of vipåka-condition. The patisandhi-citta is the first vipåkacitta arising in life. When it is the result of kusala kamma there is birth in a happy plane and when it is the result of akusala kamma there is birth in an unhappy plane. There are many different degrees of kusala kamma and of akusala kamma and thus the vipåka they produce is also of different degrees. When the patisandhi-citta is the result of kusala kamma which is weak, it is ahetuka kusala vipåkacitta (unaccompanied by sobhana hetus) and in that case, although one has a happy rebirth, one is handicapped from the first moment of life. The patisandhi- citta can also be mahå-vipåka, accompanied by two or three sobhana hetus [2]. The mahå-vipåkacitta is also conditioned by way of hetu- paccaya, root-condition. When the paìisandhi-citta is the result of akusala kamma it is ahetuka akusala vipåkacitta, and in that case one has an unhappy rebirth in one of the woeful planes. Human birth is the result of kusala kamma. Although there can be in the case of a human being nine types of patisandhi-citta [3], the patisandhi-cittas are much more variegated. We see great differences in features: some people are beautiful, some are not beautiful. We notice differences in the sense-faculties such as eyesense and earsense. There are differences in bodily strength, some people are apt to have many illnesses and they are weak, some have only few illnesses and they are strong. People are born with different degrees of paññå or without it; thus, there are different possibilities for people to develop paññå. If the paìisandi-cittas of people were not so different, there would not be such a variety in the characteristics of different people. --------- 1.Bhavanga-citta, receiving-consciousness (saÿpaìicchana-citta) or investigation-consciousness (santíraùa-citta) are for example vipåkacittas which produce rúpas 2.By alobha, non-attachment or generosity and by adosa, non-aversion or kindness, or by paññå as well. 3. One type is ahetuka kusala vipåka, and eight types are mahå- vipåkacittas. See my Abhidhamma in Daily Life Ch 11. ------------- Nina. #75401 From: "m_nease" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:55 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. m_nease Hi Tep and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Hi Mike (and Nina), - > > I think Nina hit the nail on its head : - > > > N: Do not think 'if ever'. It can be done as we read in a sutta, > > otherwise the Buddha would not have said so. But Insight has to be > > developed in stages and then it can be realized. But we do not think > > of when, in this life or in a next life, that detracts from the > > present moment. You're both right of course (IMO). But what I meant by '(if ever)' is that, for most people, anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa through satipatthana are NOT options--because most people haven't heard the Dhamma. For those who have heard the Dhamma it is a real possibility, as I see it, but these moments are still very, very rare. > Thank you very much Nina. Yes and thank you too, Tep. mike #75402 From: "m_nease" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) m_nease Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Mike, > thank you for your interesting post and good observations on > monkhood. Still, your post invites to several questions. > Op 19-aug-2007, om 1:50 heeft m. nease het volgende geschreven: > N: Why jhana when vipassana can be developed in daily life? I do not > see the advantages of jhana, suppose one would ordain as a monk and > then lead a life compatible with jhana. > Monk's life is a life higher than the lay life as we read in the > suttas. By my reading of the texts, going forth is the best possible way of life (for anyone who can do it properly), and the Buddha quite unequivocally praised the cultivation of jhaana for bhikkhus on many occasions. Even though it's clear from the Vinaya texts that all bhikkhus (even observant ones) did not cultivate jhaana, the Buddha did often single it out as a worthy practice--for bhikkhus. > Each person follows his accumulations. But it may be > difficult to know what one's accumulated inclinations are. Really? Isn't it clear to you that you have accumulated inclinations for nature walks and Teleman? Certain foods? For those with a taste for going forth, it's the same, I think. Of course the cheating dhammas are always likely to be in play and one must be careful. But the same could be said about corresponding on this list or traveling to the holy sites, circumambulating stupas and so on. > If one develops jhana one still has to emerge from jhana and develop > all the stages of insight. Yes, of course. > Do you find it a disadvantage to develop satipatthana in your daily > life as a layperson? I think that to think so is to misunderstand the nature of satipa.t.thaana. This though is a separate question from whether going forth is superior to lay life; and from whether jhaanabhaavanaa is an appropriate practice for bhikkhus. As I see it, going forth is superior to lay life (if the impediments are overcome--an enormous 'if' in this day and age); and jhaanabhaavanaa is an appropriate practice for bhikkhus. Of course satipa.t.thaana is indispensable for anyone ordained or not whose goal is the understanding that liberates. mike #75403 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:28 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 2, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Citta, cetasika and rúpa are appearing at this moment, they are real for everybody. They have no owner, they arise because of their own conditions and then they fall away. It seems that we can see people, but then we are thinking of conventional realities or concepts. It is difficult to truly understand the characteristic of seeing, an element which only experiences what is visible. On account of seeing we think of people and this is conditioned by remembrance of past moments of seeing, defining and recognizing. Each citta experiences an object. Sometimes the object of citta is a paramattha dhamma and sometimes it is a concept or conventional reality. When citta thinks of a person it does not experience a paramattha dhamma. We should not force ourselves not to think of concepts, because thinking arises because of conditions, thinking itself is a paramattha dhamma and it can be understood as such. Gradually we can learn the difference between ultimate truth and conventional truth. The realization of the four noble Truths is actually the penetration of the truth of paramattha dhammas. This can be achieved by being mindful and by understanding the true nature of citta, cetasika and rúpa which appear in our daily life, until eventually the truth which is nibbåna can be realized. It is not sufficient to merely know the names of citta, cetasika and rúpa, to have only theoretical understanding of them. We should verify the truth of the paramattha dhammas which appear in our daily life. We need to be reminded of the truth by listening, reading and studying, it never is enough. When we hear that nåma experiences an object and that rúpa does not know anything it may seem simple, but this truth should be considered again and again. As we just read, anger, like or dislike are cetasikas, visible object or flavour are rúpas. These are realities of our daily life appearing time and again. We should consider the truth that a rúpa such as flavour is completely different from nåma such as like or dislike. It is essential to gradually learn the difference between nåma and rúpa, because so long as we confuse their characteristics there is no way to become detached from the concept of self. ******* Nina. #75404 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 6:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (01) nilovg Dear Han, thank you very much for this. Op 18-aug-2007, om 13:21 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > If someone’s > goal is the arising of sati that is aware of the > characteristics of realities as they naturally appear > in daily life, but if he does not take into > consideration the development of the perfections, he > will notice that time and again he is overcome by > akusala kamma. -------- N: Someone who read this may wonder why the arising of sati is mentioned as goal, why not the liberation from the cycle of birth and death. The latter is a goal that is far away and if we are honest we do not understand what it means to reach the end of the cycle. We are too attached to life. Therefore, as beginners we may think of a goal that is nearer: < the arising of sati that is aware of the characteristics of realities as they naturally appear in daily life. > This is the way leading to the growth of right understanding of realities. But, when we think of a goal attachment can easily arise. We may be attached to reaching the goal very soon. Therefore, the perfection of patience, khanti is essential. We need patience to be aware of realities over and over again. We read in the chapter on patience: < When visible object appears, seeing-consciousness experiences it, and it can be known that there is no being, no person, no self. If we have no patience to be aware of the characteristic of the reality appearing at this moment, we cannot reach the further shore, that is, nibbåna.> Nina. #75405 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 7:24 am Subject: concept as condition. nilovg Dear Sarah and all, some time ago we discussed concept as object-condition and as natural decisive support-condition. Some found it difficult to understand that something that is a concept, not a paramattha dhamma, can be a condition. I listened to the audio on March 2005, 30 A, b. Kh Sujin explained that pa~n~natti can be object-condition and upanissaya paccaya. Climate and person are mentioned in the sutta, not in the Abhidhamma. But, she gave an example that a concept can condition indirectly pa~n~na by way of natural decisive support- condition. Words are concepts. We hear words of Dhamma and these can be a condition for the growth of pa~n~naa. What one hears and from whom one hears can condition one's cittas. That is why in the suttas the place where one lives and the friends one associates with are included in upanissaya paccaya. Nina. #75406 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge, non-self. indriyabala Dear Nina, - I appreciate the elaboration you gave in this message : - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > Op 21-aug-2007, om 14:40 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > I see your approach to be abhidhamma-based; in that perception > > domain you consider only the three realities that rise and fall. > > In my view (as explained in length to Scott) it is perfect for > > the ariyans, but not sufficient (inadequate) for worldlings who > > are not beyond the world. > ---------- > N: Yes I see, at least intellectually that a person is citta, > cetasika and rupa. It helps me to understand more about the details > of the different conditions. > Even while Lodewijk, Scott, you and I discuss, what we think and > utter in speech or writing is very different. That is because of > different conditions for the cittas that motivate such actions. > What was accumulated in the past conditions cittas today. In this > way we could speak of different individuals. But it is good to > remember that cittas with their accumulated inclinations arise and > fall away, that they are never the same. > T: I cannot see the kind of conflict that I have had with Sarah & Scott (in regard to the inflexible, one-and-only view on not-self/no- self) in the above writing! I can see, and am delighted, that your view/understanding is broader because it does not deny fleeting, impermanent existence of "individuals" who listen and practice the Dhamma in a given moment. Yes, it is important to recognize and consider the conditional existence of cittas through time so that we see them as aniccam, dukkham, anatta -- not as "existing real ego- entity, soul or any other abiding substance" [quote from Nyanatiloka]. Tep === #75407 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:21 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 11, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, A deed can produce result when it is the right time [1]. Some deeds produce result in this life, some in the next life and some after aeons. The lokuttara kusala citta, the magga-citta, produces immediate result in the form of the phalacitta, fruition- consciousness (lokuttara vipåkacitta), without any interval. The magga-citta is anantara kamma-paccaya for the phala-citta (anantara means: without interval). We have accumulated many different kammas and we do not know which of these will produce result at a particular moment, it depends also on the force of natural decisive support-condition, pakatúpanissaya paccaya (see Ch 8). Only a Buddha has full knowledge of the true nature of kamma and vipåka and this knowledge is not shared by his disciples (“Visuddhimagga” XIX, 17). We do not know which of our deeds will produce rebirth. We read in the “Greater Analysis of Deeds” (Middle Length Sayings III, 136) that the Buddha, while staying near Rajagaha, in the Bamboo Grove, spoke to Ånanda about deeds and their results. We read about someone who does evil deeds and is of wrong view, and who has an unhappy rebirth. However, for such a person there is also a possibility of a happy rebirth. We read: ... As to this, Ånanda, whatever individual there is who makes onslaught on creatures, takes what has not been given... is of false view and who, at the breaking up of the body after dying arises in a good bourn, a heaven world-- either a lovely deed to be experienced as happiness was done by him earlier, or a lovely deed to be experienced as happiness was done by him later, or at the time of dying a right view was adopted and firmly held by him; because of this, at the breaking up of the body after dying he arises in a good bourn, a heaven world. If he made onslaught on creatures here, took what had not been given... and was of false view, he undergoes its fruition which arises here and now or in another mode. ----------------- 1. We read in the Commentary to the “Book of Analysis”, the “Dispeller of Delusion” (Ch 16, Tathågata Powers 2, 439-443) about four factors which condition kamma to produce result: destiny, or the place where one is born (gati), substratum, including beauty or ugliness in body (upadhi), the time when one is born (kåla) and the “means”, including one’s behaviour (payoga). These four factors can be favorable (sampatti) or unfavorable (vipatti). If they are favorable akusala kamma has less opportunity and kusala kamma has more opportunity to produce result and if they are unfavorable akusala kamma has more opportunity and kusala kamma has less opportunity to produce result. For example, if someone is born in a happy plane, if he has beauty of body, if he is born in a favorabe time (kåla), when there is a good king and the country is prosperous, if he has the right means (payoga), that is, he refrains from bad deeds and performs good deeds, the ripening of akusala kamma is inhibited and there is opportunity for kusala kamma to give results. If these four factors are unfavorable (vipatti), the opposite is the case: akusala kamma has the opportunity to ripen and the results of kusala kamma are inhibited. For example, if someone is ugly in body, he may have to do the work of a slave and then there is opportunity for the experience of unpleasant objects. If someone steals or kills, thus, when his “means” are unfavorable, he may be caught and then tortured or executed. ******** Nina. #75408 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:07 pm Subject: Re: Asoka, Ch 2, no 3. gazita2002 hello Nina, ONce again, thank you very much for you energetic work with dsg. I haven't been around much as I have no home computor at present but I occasionally get to read dsg. As usual it is busy. Read something here that I wanted to comment on as it became very personal - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Citta, cetasika and rúpa are appearing at this moment, they are real > for everybody. They have no owner, they arise because of their own > conditions and then they fall away. It seems that we can see people, > but then we are thinking of conventional realities or concepts. It is > difficult to truly understand the characteristic of seeing, an > element which only experiences what is visible. On account of seeing > we think of people and this is conditioned by remembrance of past > moments of seeing, defining and recognizing. Each citta experiences > an object. Sometimes the object of citta is a paramattha dhamma and > sometimes it is a concept or conventional reality. When citta thinks > of a person it does not experience a paramattha dhamma. Azita: today I met my xpartner who I havent seen for 10 years following a very painful separation. He & his wife came to visit Zoe and her new baby. Was feeling alittle anxious at meeting them, but it turned out fine. I thought a lot of how the present is conditioned by past seeing, sanna, feelings etc. I also remembered at one of the discussions, we talked about forgiveness being dana, in the sense it allows the others to feel no fear of bad reactions etc. I like to think that the dhamma has helped me thro this rather uncomfortable time, in fact I like to think that the dhamma helps 'me' in everyday life :-) We should not > force ourselves not to think of concepts, because thinking arises > because of conditions, thinking itself is a paramattha dhamma and it > can be understood as such. Gradually we can learn the difference > between ultimate truth and conventional truth. > The realization of the four noble Truths is actually the penetration > of the truth of paramattha dhammas. This can be achieved by being > mindful and by understanding the true nature of citta, cetasika and > rúpa which appear in our daily life, until eventually the truth which > is nibbåna can be realized. azita; this is a very wonderful paragragh.. daily life.. thats all there is really isnt it? > It is not sufficient to merely know the names of citta, cetasika and > rúpa, to have only theoretical understanding of them. We should > verify the truth of the paramattha dhammas which appear in our daily > life. We need to be reminded of the truth by listening, reading and > studying, it never is enough. When we hear that nåma experiences an > object and that rúpa does not know anything it may seem simple, but > this truth should be considered again and again. azita: important to really consider this again and again. As we just read, > anger, like or dislike are cetasikas, visible object or flavour are > rúpas. These are realities of our daily life appearing time and > again. We should consider the truth that a rúpa such as flavour is > completely different from nåma such as like or dislike. It is > essential to gradually learn the difference between nåma and rúpa, > because so long as we confuse their characteristics there is no way > to become detached from the concept of self. > > ******* > Nina. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita #75409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:33 pm Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 180, 181 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 180, 181. Intro: The Dependent Origination teaches that ignorance conditions three kinds of formations: the formation of merit, of demerit and of the imperturbable. Section 180 deals with the formation of demerit and section 181 with the formation of the imperturbable, which are the aruupaavacara kusala cittas. ---------- Text Vis.180: The 'formation of demerit', comprising the twelve unprofitable volitions ((22)-(33)), is a condition likewise in the unhappy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming for one kind of consciousness in rebirth- linking (56), not in the course of an existence; -------- N: There are twelve akusala cetanas arsing with the twelve types of akusala cittas: eight cittas rooted in attachment (four with wrong view, four without wrong view, four with happy feeling, four with indifferent feeling, four unprompted and four prompted); two cittas rooted in aversion (one unprompted and one prompted); two cittas rooted in ignorance, moha (one accompanied by restlessness, uddhacca, and one accompanied by doubt). The Tiika states that it should be considered that the mohamuulacitta accompanied by uddhacca is not ‘cause’ (kara.na). Elsewhere it has been explained that it does not produce rebirth- consciousness, but that it can produce akusala vipaakacitta in the course of life. The Tiika emphasizes that the rebirth-consciousness which is akusala vipaakacitta is only limited to one type: the same type as santiira.nacitta that is akusala vipaakacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling. -------- Text Vis.: also for six kinds in the course of an existence ((50)- (55)), not in rebirth-linking; -------- N: These akusala vipaakacittas are the five sense-cognitions and receiving-consciousness. They experience undesirable objects. Here the investigating-consciousness, santiira.nacitta, is not mentioned, since the vipaakacittas that arise only in the course of life not in rebirth-linking are mentioned here. -------- Text Vis.: and for all seven kinds partly in the course of an existence and partly in rebirth-linking. -------- N: There are seven akusala vipaakacittas in all produced by the twelve akusala cetanas: the five sense-cognitions, receiving- consciousness and investigating-consciousness, santiira.nacitta, accompanied by indifferent feeling. The latter type also performs the function of rebirth-consciousness in unhappy planes. ---------- Text Vis.: And in the happy destinies in the sense-sphere becoming it is a condition likewise for those same seven kinds in the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking. ------- N: The seven akusala vipaakacittas arise in the happy planes of existence of the sense-sphere but not as rebirth-consciousness, only in the course of life. ---------- Text Vis. : In the fine-material becoming it is a condition likewise for four kinds of resultant consciousness ((50)-(51)), (55), (56)) in the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking. -------- N: In the ruupa-brahma planes akusala vipaakacitta can arise in the course of life, namely: as akusala vipaakacitta that is seeing, hearing, receiving-consciousness and investigating-consciousness. --------- Text Vis.: Then it is a condition for [Brahmaas'] seeing undesirable visible data and hearing undesirable visible data, etc., in the Brahmaa-world itself; and likewise in the divine world of the sense sphere. ------------------------- N: The Tiika explains that there are generally no unpleasant objects in the deva planes. There are many pleasant objects for them, but sometimes there are unpleasant objects, such as those which are signs of their passing away from that plane. There are the fading of their garlands, etc ********* Text Vis.181: The 'formation of the imperturbable' is a condition likewise for four kinds of resultant consciousness ((62)-(65)) in the course of an existence and in rebirth-linking in the immaterial becoming. ------- N: These are the four types of aruupaavacara vipaakacittas arising in the aruupa-brahma planes, where there is only naama, not ruupa. --------- Text Vis. : This, firstly, is how it should be understood what kinds of resultant consciousness these formations are conditions for in rebirth-linking and in the [three] kinds of becoming, and in what way they are conditions. And it should also be understood in the same way of the kinds of generation and so on. ------- N: The three kinds of becoming are: the sensuous plane of existence, the plane of the ruupa-brahmas and the planes of the aruupa-brahmas. The kinds of generation (yoni) are: as egg-born, womb-born, putrescence- (moisture-) born, and spontaneous rebirth. In the following sections more details will be given. ________ Conclusion: The akusala vipaakacitta that is rebirth-consciousness in unhappy planes is only one type: the ahetuka akusala vipaakacitta that is the same type as the santiira.nacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling. It is the result of one of the ten kinds of akusala kamma patha: killing, stealing, sexual misbehaviour, lying, slandering, rude speech, frivolous talk, covetousness, ill-will and wrong view. These deeds are motivated by akusala cetanaa accompanying akusala citta. As we have seen, there are twelve types of akusala citta. Only the the mohamuulacitta accompanied by uddhacca is not ‘cause’ (kara.na), it does not produce rebirth. This citta that is accompanied by indifferent feeling, may not be known easily, but it often arises when we are forgetful and there are no lobha, dosa or doubt. It also arises in between the moments of akusala kamma and it can produce akusala vipaaka in the course of life. There are many intensities of akusala kamma patha. The vipaakacitta they produce is only one type but there are many varieties and intensities of this citta that arises as rebirth-consciousness in different kinds of unhappy planes. ******* Nina. #75410 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:38 pm Subject: Conditions, Ch 11, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, The vipåkacitta which is patisandhi-citta is succeeded by the vipåkacitta which is bhavanga-citta because of proximate-condition, contiguity-condition and proximate decisive support-condition. The bhavanga-citta is the same type of citta as the patisandhi-citta. There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising throughout life in between the processes of cittas and all of them are of the same type as the patisandhi-citta. They keep the continuity in the life of a person who is born with a particular character and particular capacities. Throughout life kamma produces vipåkacittas arising in processes of cittas which experience pleasant or unpleasant objects. Seeing, for example, is vipåkacitta which experiences a pleasant or unpleasant visible object through the eyesense. It merely sees, it does not know whether the object is pleasant or unpleasant. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas condition one another by way of vipåka- condition, they assist one another in “effortless quiet”. The succeeding receiving-consciousness, sampaticchana-citta , is also vipåkacitta, and this is succeeded by another vipåkacitta, the investigating-consciouness, santírana-citta. This is succeeded by the determining-consciousness, the votthapana-citta, which is a kiriyacitta. After that the javana-cittas arise which are, in the case of non-arahats, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When the object is pleasant, lobha-múla-cittas are likely to arise and when the object is unpleasant, dosa-múla-cittas are likely to arise. There are seven javana-cittas arising, succeeding one another. Cittas arise and fall away succeeding one another very rapidly and when paññå has not been developed we do not realize when there is vipåkacitta and when there is kusala citta or akusala citta. When we have an unpleasant experience such as an accident we keep on thinking of the concept of a situation or of an event we consider as “our vipåka” and we may wonder why this had to happen to us. We tend to forget that vipåkacitta is only one moment which falls away immediately. Instead of thinking of concepts with aversion we should develop understanding of paramattha dhammas, realities which each have their own characteristic and which appear one at a time. ****** Nina. #75411 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:53 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 2, no 3. nilovg Dear Azita, I am touched very much by your example and observations. Your posts are always most welcome, you help!! I shall show this to Lodewijk, who has trouble to consider paramattha dhammas. He keeps on saying: forty years and he cannot remember. Op 22-aug-2007, om 8:07 heeft gazita2002 het volgende geschreven: > today I met my xpartner who I havent seen for 10 years > following a very painful separation. He & his wife came to visit Zoe > and her new baby. Was feeling alittle anxious at meeting them, but > it turned out fine. I thought a lot of how the present is > conditioned by past seeing, sanna, feelings etc. > I also remembered at one of the discussions, we talked about > forgiveness being dana, in the sense it allows the others to feel no > fear of bad reactions etc. I like to think that the dhamma has > helped me thro this rather uncomfortable time, in fact I like to > think that the dhamma helps 'me' in everyday life :-) --------- N: How good to be reminded of forgiving. And I think that being less involved in thoughts of he and me can help to forgive. Dana is a perfection when it is developed with satipatthana, that is, a growing understanding that what we take for a person are nama and rupa. --------- Quote: The realization of the four noble Truths is actually the penetration > of the truth of paramattha dhammas. This can be achieved by being > mindful and by understanding the true nature of citta, cetasika and > rúpa which appear in our daily life, until eventually the truth which > is nibbåna can be realized. -------- azita; this is a very wonderful paragragh.. daily life.. thats all there is really isnt it? ------ N: Nama and rupa appear all the time in daily life, where else? But we often fail to see this. They appear but we take them for somebody or something. Our usual forgetfulness. ------- quote: When we hear that nåma experiences an > object and that rúpa does not know anything it may seem simple, but > this truth should be considered again and again. azita: important to really consider this again and again. ------- N: This is the beginning of understanding, and I am glad you repeat this, I need reminders. -------- A: Patience, courage and good cheer. ------ N: This good wish will be very helpful to Lodewijk. I am very grateful for your post, looking forward to having more of them, Nina. #75412 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (01) nilovg Dear Han, Op 20-aug-2007, om 11:11 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > The goal of “sati” is very important. If there is > ‘one’ (sati), one leads to ‘four’ (four foundations of > mindfulness: cattaaro satipatthaanaa), four leads to > ‘seven’ (seven factors of enlightenment: satta > bojjhange), and seven leads to ‘two’ (true knowledge > and deliverance: vijjaa vimutti). ---------- N: Perhaps this is from a book you use and one should know the context. I understand that the four foundations of mindfulness point to all nama and rupa that are the objects of sati of satipatthana. I wrote something to Azita that touches on your corner: In Corner 2 you quote: If satipatthana is not developed at the same time we cling to the idea of my good person who should be without defilements. Thinking of person is in the way all the time. Although we are not accomplished, we can begin to think in the right way and this helps us already. It is not easy to think in the right way because from childhood and during aeons before that, we are used to thinking of self and person. As we read, . Developing the perfections leads to thinking less of myself. Nina. #75413 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:11 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 2, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Citta, cetasika and rúpa have been classified as five aggregates or khandhas: the khandhas of rúpa, feeling, perception (saññå), the habitual tendencies (sankhårakkhandha, all cetasikas except feeling and saññå) and viññåùa (citta). We read many times in the scriptures about the five khandhas which are impermanent. Such texts are not monotonous, but most beneficial. We keep on forgetting that all the people and all our possessions we are attached to are only fleeting phenomena, insignificant dhammas and thus, we need time and again to be reminded of the truth. We read in the “Middle Length Sayings” (I, 35, Lesser Discourse to Saccaka) that Saccaka, son of the Jains, approached the venerable Assaji. He asked Assaji how the Buddha trained his disciples, and what his instructions were. Assaji answered that the Buddha instructed his disciples as follows: “Rúpa, monks, is impermanent, feelings are impermanent, perception (saññå) is impermanent, the habitual tendencies (sankhårakkhandha) are impermanent, consciousness is impermanent. Rúpa, monks, is not self, feeling is not self, perception is not self, the habitual tendencies are not self, consciousness is not self; all conditioned realities are impermanent, all dhammas are not self.” We then read that Saccaka approached the Buddha with the wish to refute him and make him confused. He asked the Buddha how he trained his disciples and received the same answer as Assaji had given him. Saccaka stated that he took all the khandhas for self. Further on we read that the Buddha asked him: “What do you think about this, Aggivessana? When you speak thus: ‘Rúpa is myself,’ have you power over this rúpa of yours (and can you say), ‘Let my rúpa be thus, Let my rúpa be not thus?’ ” Saccaka became silent, but when the Buddha said that if he would not answer his skull would split into seven pieces, he became afraid and agitated. He answered that he did not have power over rúpa. The Buddha then asked him whether he had power over the other khandhas and Saccaka answered that he had not. The Buddha asked Saccaka further about the nature of the five khandhas: “Is rúpa permanent or impermanent?’” “Impermanent, good Gotama.” “But is what is impermanent dukkha (anguish) or happiness?” “Dukkha, good Gotama.” “But is it fitting to regard that which is impermanent, dukkha, liable to change as ‘This is mine, this am I, this is my self’?” “This is not so, good Gotama.” We then read that the Buddha asked the same about the other khandhas and that Saccaka gave the same answer. ******* Nina. #75414 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (01) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind comments. > > Han: The goal of “sati” is very important. If there is ‘one’ (sati), one leads to ‘four’ (four foundations of mindfulness: cattaaro satipatthaanaa), four leads to ‘seven’ (seven factors of enlightenment: satta bojjhange), and seven leads to ‘two’ (true knowledge and deliverance: vijjaa vimutti). > Nina: Perhaps this is from a book you use and one should know the context. I understand that the four foundations of mindfulness point to all nama and rupa that are the objects of sati of satipatthana. ---------- Han: My above statement was based on MN 118 Anapanasati Sutta, translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli and Bhikkhu Bodhi. I do not have the electronic version of their translation, but I have the translation of the same sutta by Thanissaro Bhikkhu which I will quote here. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html Quote: ["Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for awakening to their culmination. The seven factors for awakening, when developed & pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination.] End Quote. You are right that the four foundations of mindfulness point to all nama and rupa that are the objects of sati of satipatthana. Here, the “one” I referred to is “aanaapaana-sati.” The Four Foundations of Mindfulness have four foundations, but the main foundation is just “one” – that is “sati” with its all-embracing connotations. That’s why I said the “one.” And the one leads to four and so on. *************** Han: I agree with the rest of your post, especially, * Dana is a perfection when it is developed with satipatthana, that is, a growing understanding that what we take for a person are nama and rupa. [H: I think it is true for all perfections.] * If satipatthana is not developed at the same time we cling to the idea of my good person who should be without defilements. Thinking of person is in the way all the time. Although we are not accomplished, we can begin to think in the right way and this helps us already. It is not easy to think in the right way because from childhood and during aeons before that, we are used to thinking of self and person. * As we read, . Developing the perfections leads to thinking less of myself. Respectfully, Han #75416 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 5:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) nilovg Dear Mike, Op 21-aug-2007, om 22:24 heeft m_nease het volgende geschreven: > By my reading of the texts, going forth is the best possible way of > life (for anyone who can do it properly), and the Buddha quite > unequivocally praised the cultivation of jhaana for bhikkhus on many > occasions. Even though it's clear from the Vinaya texts that all > bhikkhus (even observant ones) did not cultivate jhaana, the Buddha > did often single it out as a worthy practice--for bhikkhus. ------- N: I understand. In the Buddha's time here were no Dhamma books, no tapes to listen to, no internet with Dhamma. When the bhikkhu had done all his chores, he had free time. Jhana is a high form of kusala, thus it was time for samatha and jhana. The Buddha gave it an extra dimension: he should not take jhanacitta for self, thus, also develop satipatthana. At the present time it is very useful for the bhikkhu to study and read Dhamma books and listen to tapes. Like the Abbot in Bodhgaya, especially during the rains retreat he listened for many hours to Kh Sujin! A wonderful example I think. So, I think we cannot compare the Buddha's time with the present time. --------- > > M:> Each person follows his accumulations. But it may be > > difficult to know what one's accumulated inclinations are. > > Really? Isn't it clear to you that you have accumulated inclinations > for nature walks and Teleman? Certain foods? For those with a taste > for going forth, it's the same, I think. Of course the cheating > dhammas are always likely to be in play and one must be careful. But > the same could be said about corresponding on this list or traveling > to the holy sites, circumambulating stupas and so on. ----- N: Yes, for these (conventional) things we can tell, but as for the latent tendencies, that is hard to tell. Kh Sujin said re different temperaments (for the choosing of a meditation subject) that only the person who develops satipatthana knows. > ------------- > M: Do you find it a disadvantage to develop satipatthana in your > daily > > life as a layperson? > > I think that to think so is to misunderstand the nature of > satipa.t.thaana. This though is a separate question from whether > going forth is superior to lay life; and from whether jhaanabhaavanaa > is an appropriate practice for bhikkhus. ------- N: Yes, and also: someone is already because of conditions in this or that state of life. Mindfulness can arise at any time, anywhere, provided there is right understanding of the object of mindfulness. **** Nina. #75417 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:52 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) buddhatrue Hi Suan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Jon, Mike N, Nina, Sarah, Howard, Scott D, Rob K, Ken H, Chris > F, James > > > As you can imagine, a pursuer of samatha Jhaana will have passed > through levels of sammadhi below the First Jhaana. So, yes, the Pali > texts do imply the feasibility of samaadhi being developed as a form > of kusala cetasika to the best of one's capability. I agree completely. Very nicely stated. The Vism. also states: "Herein, the development of concentration that occurs from the time of the first conscious reaction up to the arising of the access of a given jhana is called 'progress'." Vism. III, 15 Metta, James #75418 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study moellerdieter Dear Nina, Howard ,friends.., sorry for the delay .. back to our discussion: 'N: Conditioned realities, the five khandhas, are like a glob of foam, etc. but they are real. They arise just for a moment and then fall away. That is their nature of dukkha.' D: what appears real to us is real until proven otherwise, regardless of its a impermance. The question occurs however whether it is real too in an ultimate sense, i.e. the last truth.------- N: The term ultimate may create confusion. It makes one think: nibbaana is the ultimate, the highest, or, only nibbana is real. D: yes, terms always create confusíon without agreement of its meaning. Take for example ' ultimate'...my dictionary says : 'last, furthest, basic: ~ principles, truths, the ~ cause, beyond which no other cause is known or can be found.' which I think fits for nibbana ... or even better the term 'absolute ' (' ..unconditioned, unqualified, not relative, not dependent on or measured by other things ') Both words to be understood in context of the worlds of samsara and the liberation from it, one may say Nibbana is the ultimate, the absolute ......... without stating that the mundane world , how it appears to us , is not real. It is real until proven otherwise (enlightenment) N: Paramattha is sometimes derived from: parama attha: the highest meaning. Thus, what is real in the highest sense, and this different from the conventional sense. D: there is a problem with translation.. my understanding of Paramattha Dhammas excl. nibbana is that of a threefold category of 'the Here and Now ' ..this present consciousness of arising and ceasing of mental bodily phenomena ...when we start to think about it , time -future kamma - comes into play , i.e. concept . Isn't that meant by pannatti ? (D: This grouping does not make sense to me , even contradictory, when you say 'There are four paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana, and all four are real.') ------- N: They are real, they can be experienced when their characteristics appear. citta, cetasika, rupa are lokiya dhamma and nibbaana is lokuttara dhamma. citta, cetasika, rupa are conditioned dhamma and nibbaana is the unconditioned dhamma. D: citta, cetasika, rupa are real because they are experienced in the present reality but nibbana can not (yet).... the grouping does not fit , does it? Nibbana is not unconditioned dhamma because dhamma /dhammas refer to all mental, material phenomena/ things rising and ceasing due to its conditioning. Nibbana is unconditioned . full stop .......... isn't it? D: I think there is more to it: the Buddha once mentioned that there would be no teaching without the fact of old age, sickness and death . It is not the moment of arising and ceasing of phenomena which is our real problem in life , it is the suffering connected with decay and death!--------- N: There would not be death if the last citta in life would not fall away. All cittas fall away, that is momentary death. Life can be seen as the arising and ceasing of phenomena at each moment.---------- D:Remember about the 3 special occasions which made the Prince seeking for truth , recognizing that ultimate truth not to be found in that what itself is subjet to impermanence D: I hoped you would have refered to the last passage.. by chance I stumbled upon a message from Phil some time ago who talked about the chariot (the Prince was riding on these occasions) who expressed it similarily .. wondering how often certain issues are debated again and again without a conclusion. When you say 'Life can be seen as the arising and ceasing of phenomena at each moment.' you are right in an ultimate sense , but ' so what' for our reality and the misery connected to it, which the Buddha addressed by the 4 Noble Truths. I agree with Phil (who hopefully does mind the quotation) : 'For the umteenth time, putting the cart before the horse , we start where we are, not where we want to be ..' 'D:Ven . Narada wrote in the Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammata Sangaha): 'Consciousness, mental states (with the exception of 8 types of supra mundane consciousness and their adjuncts), and matter are Mundane (lokiya), and Nibbana is Supra mundane (lokuttara). The Supra mundane Nibbana is the only absolutely reality, which is the summum bonum of Buddhism. The other three are called realities in that they are things that exist (vijjamana dhamma). Besides, they are irreducible, immutable, and abstract things. They deal with what is within us and around us.' ------ N: The wording is not completely satisfactory, especially the word abstract. Also the idea of exist, I do not think it is so precise. vijamana: occuring. D: Ven. Narada mentioned the introduction to Abhidhamma by Ven. Nyanatiloka...unfortunately not available to me.. there is revised edition by Ven. Bodhi . I am not sure what is the latest widely accepted translation and wonder whether the Burmese translation of the Abhidhammattha -Sangaha may provide some clues.. (D:As far as I understand, the term nama refers to the mental in distinguishment to the material (rupa) aspects within the framework of the 5 respectively 3 khandas. There are no khandas in nibbana, are they?) ------ N: Nibbaana is free from the khandhas, khandha vimutta D: yes (D: I doubt that there is a canonical source which will prove that nibbana can be called nama. Would be interesting to learn otherwise.) ------- N: There is a text wherenibbana is called vi~n~naa.na. Suan wrote a good post about this. Here it is vi~n~naa.na not in the sense of consciousness which knows but: that which can be known. So, we have to look at the context. D: as nama is a term used in context within the 5 khandas , nibbana free from the khandas, cannot be called nama without obvious contradiction? The canon mentions the glimpse of nibbana , but being conscious of it for a whatever brief moment does not make nibbana to nama , does it? with Metta Dieter #75419 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter & Nina - In a message dated 8/22/07 3:47:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: > (D: I doubt that there is a canonical source which will prove that > nibbana can be called nama. Would be interesting to learn otherwise.) > ------- > N: There is a text wherenibbana is called vi~n~naa.na. Suan wrote a good > post about this. Here it is vi~n~naa.na not in the sense of consciousness > which knows but: that which can be known. So, we have to look at the context. > > > D: as nama is a term used in context within the 5 khandas , nibbana free > from the khandas, cannot be called nama without obvious contradiction? > The canon mentions the glimpse of nibbana , but being conscious of it for a > whatever brief moment does not make nibbana to nama , does it? > ========================= Nina, did you have in mind 'viññanam anidassanam', as mentioned in the Kevatta Sutta? There is found the following by the Buddha: ___________________ Your question should not be phrased in this way: Where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder? Instead, it should be phrased like this: Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end? And the answer to that is: Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here brought to an end. ----------------------------------------- I do think this refers to nibbana. And it does use the term 'viññanam' in that regard. However, it is not consciousness in the ordinary sense - it is an "unmanifestive" or "featureless" consciousness. Moreover, "here" is "name and form brought to an end." So, perhaps nibbana is nama as "consciousness without subject and without object". Perhaps that makes some sense: With no self, there is neither neither subject nor object, and yet realization of nibbana is not a blanking out but an awakening. So, 'viññanam' perhaps is not inappropriate, so long as it is understood that this is not remotely consciousness as we know it. With metta, Howard #75420 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:16 pm Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) nichiconn hi mike, --------- > > > Each person follows his accumulations. But it may be > > difficult to know what one's accumulated inclinations are. > > Really? Isn't it clear to you that you have accumulated inclinations > for nature walks and Teleman? Certain foods? For those with a taste > for going forth, it's the same, I think. Of course the cheating > dhammas are always likely to be in play and one must be careful. But > the same could be said about corresponding on this list or traveling > to the holy sites, circumambulating stupas and so on. ----- N: Yes, for these (conventional) things we can tell, but as for the latent tendencies, that is hard to tell. Kh Sujin said re different temperaments (for the choosing of a meditation subject) that only the person who develops satipatthana knows. > ------------- C: Then there was Kali's mistress who was widely known for her patience, which fell away so far that she hit the girl with a rolling pin after having been fed up with her provocations. Conditions rule. And I don't think we can say that 'o, i'm a good person in this lifetime so i'm bound to be so in the next', like the next life is formed around some 'middle ground' of this one instead of a single past kamma, which we also can't pick... 'yes, let it be only a great past kusala moment'. peace, connie #75421 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:32 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (03) hantun1 Dear All, Continuation of the chapter on “Introduction.” The following is taken from “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, and different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ Characteristic, Function, Manifestation and Proximate Cause of the Perfections: We read in the Paramatthadiipanii, the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” Cariyaapi.taka Khuddhaka Nikaaya, about the characteristics of the ten perfections. [1] [Note 1: For Nina’s quotations from the Commentary to the Basket of Conduct and the definitions and descriptions of the perfections, contained in the last part, the Miscellaneous Sayings, Paki.n.naka Kathaa, Nina is using the translation of this part of the Commentary by Ven. Bodhi. This translation is included in “The All-embracing Net of Views”, The Brahmajaala Sutta and its commentaries, B.P.S/ Kandy, Sri Lanka.] (1) Giving (daana) has the characteristic of relinquishing; its function is to dispel greed for things that can be given away; its manifestation is non-attachment, or the achievement of prosperity and a favourable state of existence; an object that can be relinquished is its proximate cause. (2) Virtue (siila) has the characteristic of composing (siilana, observing); coordinating (samaadhaana) and establishing (pati.t.thana) are also mentioned as its characteristic. Its function is to dispel moral depravity, or its function is blameless conduct; its manifestation is moral purity; shame and moral dread are its proximate cause. (3) Renunciation (nekkhamma) has the characteristic of departing from sense pleasures and existence; its function is to verify the unsatisfactoriness they involve; its manifestation is the withdrawal from them; a sense of spiritual urgency (samvega) is its proximate cause. (4) Wisdom (pa~n~naa) has the characteristic of penetrating the real specific nature (of dhammas), or the characteristic of sure penetration, like the penetration of an arrow shot by a skilful archer; its function is to illuminate the objective field, like a lamp; its manifestation is non-confusing, like a guide in a forest; concentration or the four (noble) truths, is its proximate cause. [2] [Note 2: Concentration of the eightfold Path performs its function while it accompanies the wisdom of the eightfold Path. The four noble Truths are the object of pa~n~naa.] (5) Energy has the characteristic of striving; its function is to fortify; its manifestation is indefatigably; an occasion for the arousing of energy, or a sense of spiritual urgency, is its proximate cause. To be continued. ---------------------------- metta, Han #75422 From: han tun Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (03) hantun1 Dear Nina, The manifestation of “daana” is quoted as non-attachment, or the achievement of prosperity and a favourable state of existence. I understand clearly the manifestation of daana as non-attachment. But I am not so clear how the manifestation of daana is the achievement of prosperity and a favourable state of existence? Respectfully. Han #75423 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:55 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Hi Mike (and Nina) - >Mike: for most people, anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa through > satipatthana are NOT options--because most people haven't heard the > Dhamma. For those who have heard the Dhamma it is a real >possibility,as I see it, but these moments are still very, very rare. T: I have a one-peso comment : Hearing the Dhamma, but not making conscientious effort to develop the four foundations of mindfulness, is not the nutriment for the "anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa moments" to arise". That may be a reason why "these moments are still very, very rare". Tep === #75424 From: "m_nease" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:18 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. m_nease Hi Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Mike (and Nina) - > > >Mike: for most people, anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa through > > satipatthana are NOT options--because most people haven't heard the > > Dhamma. For those who have heard the Dhamma it is a real > >possibility,as I see it, but these moments are still very, very rare. > > T: I have a one-peso comment : Hearing the Dhamma, but not making > conscientious effort to develop the four foundations of mindfulness, > is not the nutriment for the "anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa > moments" to arise". That may be a reason why "these moments are still > very, very rare". It could be, I agree--but hearing the Dhamma must come before bhaavanaa, ("making conscientious effort"?) don't you think? I think that the great rarity of unperverted perception (or any other kusala factor), even for those who have heard the Dhamma, is the result of accumulated akusala more than anything else. Of course I could be mistaken--just my one-baht opinion. mike #75425 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:47 am Subject: The no-eternal-soul concept exists in Christianity dacostacharles Hi all, I stumbled on an interesting read in a magazine written by Jehovah's witnesses. The meat is as follows: In the Bible, the soul is often equated with the total person. Nothing in the scriptures indicates that the soul is some immaterial entity or essence that lives on after death. However, it does often refer to a life, human or animal, or to the life that a creature enjoys as a living soul. ... Souls die. Man doesn't have a soul, he is a soul. ... Jesus promised a resurrection - going from death to life - not the immortality of the soul. ________________ I will be taking this up with other Christians to hear their view of this. This is also why I am posting it here. Charles DaCosta ,_._,___ #75426 From: "m_nease" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 8:37 pm Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) m_nease Hi Connie and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > hi mike, > --------- > > > Each person follows his accumulations. But it may be > > > difficult to know what one's accumulated inclinations are. > > > > Really? Isn't it clear to you that you have accumulated inclinations > > for nature walks and Teleman? Certain foods? For those with a taste > > for going forth, it's the same, I think. Of course the cheating > > dhammas are always likely to be in play and one must be careful. But > > the same could be said about corresponding on this list or traveling > > to the holy sites, circumambulating stupas and so on. > ----- > N: Yes, for these (conventional) things we can tell, but as for the > latent tendencies, that is hard to tell. Kh Sujin said re different > temperaments (for the choosing of a meditation subject) that only the > person who develops satipatthana knows. Sure, hence the need for a kalyaa.namitta (which I take to refer to an ariyapuggala in this context) for this sort of thing "(for the choosing of a meditation subject)". > ------------- > C: Then there was Kali's mistress who was widely known for her patience, which fell away so far that she hit the girl with a rolling pin after having been fed up with her provocations. Conditions rule. And I don't think we can say that 'o, i'm a good person in this lifetime so i'm bound to be so in the next', like the next life is formed around some 'middle ground' of this one instead of a single past kamma, which we also can't pick... 'yes, let it be only a great past kusala moment'. Thanks for this Connie, always good to hear from you. Sure, conditions rule always as I see it. And I've always liked (in a morbid sort of way) the story of Kali's mistress. But for the rest--was there a point pertinent to our discussion of going forth and the propriety of jhaanabhaavanaa for bhikkhus that I've missed? mike #75427 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:51 pm Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness kenhowardau Hi Swee Boon and Howard, The Abhidhamma seems to be out of fashion on this thread. :-) But I would just like to mention the best of all explanations of how the flood was crossed. It was crossed by magga citta. That is, by citta with supramundane right view. It was not crossed by a citta with wrong view. I know you both agree there is no self, but I think you might underestimate the significance of there only ever being citta, cetasika and rupa. That is the first thing we need to know. After that, all we need to know is their cause, their cessation, and the path leading to their cessation. The main thing is, the Four Noble Truths are about understanding the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. ------------ H:> > > > Originally, I took this sutta to be describing a middle-way mode > > of practice, avoiding extremes, but I now strongly doubt that as > > simplistic. > SB: > > I think a sotapanna would also know how to avoid extremes (he has > basic direct knowledge of dependent origination), yet a sotapanna is > not said to have 'crossed over the floods'. ------------- KH: He is on the way though, isn't he? After the first magga citta, there are the magga cittas of the Once Returner, the Non-returner, and, finally, the Arahant. So the flood is crossed in four steps. ---------------------- H: > > > > > I must say that I am mightily impressed and rather much persuaded > > by what you write here, Swee Boon. It is clever (in the good > > sense), it hangs together well, and it certainly is not only a > > plausible reading but one which, for me, is eye-opening. > SB: > > :-) ----------------------- Don't give up the day job. :-) Ken H #75428 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Burmese monk's Qu - Dieter sarahprocter... Hi Dieter, (Sukin & Nina) What you write below seems fine to me. We'll let you know just if there's anything further of relevance. Sukin briefly mentioned that he had asked "by what condition does utu condition other kalapas". A. Sujin replied that he should "think in terms of just the *one* kalapa and not in terms of other kalapas which have not yet arisen." This is her approach: no matter it's one's own qu or someone else's, she'll check the basic understanding of the one raising the question and make it relevant to this moment. I wasn't there, so can't comment further on either the question raised or the response. Metta, Sarah ======== --- Dieter Möller wrote: > Hi Sarah (and Nina), > > thanks for coming back on this matter.. > > perhaps it would be an idea to send a letter based on your previous > message, asking for his comment and indicating the possibility to > raise the issue with A. Sujin in October. > I would simply pass the message below to the mailbox, he left to me.. > > > (As Nina has explained) > > quote: > > 'sahajata paccaya (conascence condition) doesn't > apply as this only includes rupas conditioning each other in a kalapa > (group), but not rupas arising subsequently. > > With regard to nutriment condition (below), I understand it's an > essential > support with regard to temperature/heat produced rupas in the body only, > (depending on food eaten), but I also don't see it as conclusive in > terms > of all rupas conditioned by temperature either.' > > unquote > > assumed it is ok with you .. otherwise please correct according to your > convenience.. > #75429 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 11, no 1. sarahprocter... Hi Howard, --- upasaka@... wrote: > > >Kamma-Condition (Kamma-Paccaya) and Vipåka-Condition > ======================== > Thank you, Sarah, for passing this on. > Whatever the "conascent cetana" AS DESCRIBED may be, I do not > think of > it as kamma, or, for that matter, even as intention/volition (willing). ... S: I understand what you mean. You are referring specificall to the other function of cetana arising with the kusala and akusala cittas as 'willing' the citta and cetasikas . .... > For > me, and as I have encountered it in the suttas, kamma = cetana = willing > = > volition. I see it as an impulse or "pushing," directing activities in > some > direction or other. .... S: Yes, I understand this. ... >I see it less as a coordinating than as a directed > energizing. > It is the "controlling" nature of cetana that fools us into thinking and > > feeling that there is an underlying agent/controller. ... S: I think it's the 'controlling' nature of cetana combined with ignorance, wrong view, sanna and other associated cetasikas which leads to this idea of atta. Thanks, Howard. Metta, Sarah ======= #75430 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) sarahprocter... Dear Tep, Nina & Han. I think that jara (old age) is a good topic. I suggested Han could send a series on this, but he thought no one would be interested. Quite the contrary, I'm sure. --- Tep Sastri wrote: > >Nina: > > when young one can think of it. For example when seeing one's > ageing parents. Still, this is different from when you actually feel > it. Like the pain after a fall and then not being able to walk > without pain for weeks. > > T: They say "seeing is believing", so you are right about seeing > one's own ageing parents. I know what you mean because my mom lived > to be 99 years old (she would have made 100 on February 16th this > year), and it was pain for me to see her ageing, unable to walk and > suffering every move. ... S: You mentioned to me (off-list in passing) before that you had been reflecting a lot on old age and living a long life. I mentioned that I knew Han and Nina would be glad to hear any more of your reflections on this. I would too. When I was young, I always had a lot of assoication with elderly people - at school, I used to do a lot of voluntary work helping the elderly and I worked for a while in a centre for the elderly as a warden. I learnt a lot about the importance of 'attitude'. I remember one elderly lady who I used to love to visit. She was bed-ridden and blind, but always cheerful and interested in others. Then there were those who were still quite active, but full of self-pity. As always, it comes back to the present cittas, don't you think? The pains and aches we had yesterday have gone. What about now? Is there any awareness? Just the world though one sense-door or the mind-door at a time. ... >Beyond "seeing is believing" is experiencing an > old body that is disintegrating like you've described. ... S: Again, I think it's a question of one citta at a time. Some young people have a lot of sickness and some elderly people very little. It depends on vipaka and more importantly on accumulations as to how much dosa follows the unpleasant bodily feeling. I'll look forward to any further comments. I think the sutta quote you gave, Tep, was very relevant.... What is most important is to understand all such dhammas as anatta. As we read a couple of times in the Vism (#74579): > ""The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 171. Now it was also asked, 'Whose is the fruit, since there is no experiencer?' Herein: 'Experiencer' is a convention For mere arising of the fruit; They say 'It fruits' as convention, When on a tree appears its fruit. 172. Just as it is simply owing to the arising of tree fruits, which are one part of the phenomena called a tree, that it is said 'The tree fruits' or 'The tree has fruited', so it is simply owing to the arising of the fruit consisting of the pleasure and pain called experience, which is one part of the aggregates 'deities' and 'human beings', that it is said 'A deity or human being experiences or feels pleasure or pain'. There is therefore no need at all here for a superfluous experiencer."< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== #75431 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] not hard to accept, a correction. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Scott, (& Ken H), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Scott, > a correction to be made as to the sutta of Rahula at Ambala.t.thikaa. > I wrote: rather as splitseconds past, there are countless cittas within a > splitsecond arising and falling away. > this is not to be applied to > this sutta as I did. .... S: It may not be relevant in this context, but it is still interesting. I had checked the reference in the Atthasalini, 'Remaining Types of Consciousness', [159] on daana in this regard: "Of these bases of meritorious action, (1) charity arises with the thought 'I will give charity,' when he is making the gift, and when he reflects 'I have given it.' Thus the three volitions - preliminary volition, volition at the time of making the gift, subsequent volition - become one, and constitute the basis of meritorious act consisting of charity." Paali: "Etesu pana pu~n~nakiriyavatthusu daanamaya.m naama 'daana.m dassaamii ti' cintentassa uppajjati, daana.m dadato uppajjati, 'dinnam me ti' paccavekkhantassa uppajjati. Evam pubbacetanaa mu~ncanacetanaa it tisso pi cetanaa ekato katvaa daanamyam pu~n~nakiriyavatthu naama hoti." S: Here clearly, the intention to act, act itself and reflection are referring to the one meritorious deed and paccavekkhana to the wise reflection with wisdom of such. .... > I should have looked more closely at the co. It is stated that here > the subject is not manokamma, but kamma through action and speech. > The Co explains that before the meal he should purify kamma through > action and speech, and was from daybreak until the time he sat down here improper kamma > through action and speech towards others. If so he should reveal it, > if not he can rejoice. Then it explains that he should purify mano > kamma when he was going on his almsround. How? Was there attachment, > excitement or distress as to rupa etc. when going on his almsround? > If there was, he should not do this again. If there was not he should > rejoice.> ... S: I've raised the passage from this sutta before with A.Sujin as people often mention it. As usual, she stressed that no matter what we read, it is referring to the development of satipatthana at this moment (as Ken H always stresses). Just as in the Satipatthana Sutta, we read about walking and being aware, standing, lying down, going forwards, eating and so on - always to the awareness of namas and rupas at anytime at all. For some there are conditions to reflect on foulness, for others on breath or jhanas, for others on the kusala or akusala during the day. Whatever is conditioned at such times, at this moment, can be known. It reminds me of the 'Vitakka-Santhana Sutta', MN20 (Removal of Distracting Thoughts) - it seems to be suggesting we should do this or that to revove akusala thoughts. Actually, how we behave and what we do will depend on accumulations. Whether we're counting to ten, clenching our teeth or reflecting on the Buddha's virtues, sati and pa~n~naa can arise if sufficient wisdom has been accumulated. I think it helps a lot to always remember that what has arisen is conditioned and there is no self to ever make it any other way. Metta, Sarah ========== #75432 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:48 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Scott (Sarah and Swee), - Thank you for the second come back to this on-going, no-ending discussion. Your message # 75388 is well thought out, and I appreciate your effort. Scott: Whether ariyan or not, given that a Buddha has taught anatta again, the truth can be known. Intellectual understanding is still understanding and acceptance of anatta, even at this level, is an achievement that not all can claim. To claim intellectual understanding and acceptance of this level is not at all to claim ariyan status. Such an understanding would, however, reflect the development of pa~n~naa. The argument that anatta is only true for ariyans and that atta is true for non-ariyans doesn't make sense to me. T: Correction : I have not said that "atta is true for non-ariyans"; those are your own. I agree that Scott does not claim ariyan satus; he only claims intellectual understanding that (he thinks) reflects his development of pa~n~naa. But there is a huge gap between intellectual understanding and the special kind of panna that knows the truth. The truth "can be known" given that you at least have direct knowledge of a Sotapanna. Read below : "Friend Sariputta, it is through seeing cessation (nirodham disvaa), through directly knowing cessation (nirodham abhinnaaya) in the eye, eye-consciousness, and things cognizable through eye-consciousness, that I regard them thus `This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self'" [more in MN 144] In other words, "anatta is true" as a "truth" by means of the panna of an ariyan; it is not "known" by non-ariyans who have not penetrated the Four Noble Truths. That's why I have made a point that we should develop understanding so that the conventional truth finally morphs into the ultimate truth, and we should be flexible enough to accept both truths. ............... Scott: Tep, how would you define self, as you suggest above? T: Seeing self is due to wrong views. There are 62 kinds of wrong views related to self, as given in the Brahmajaala Sutta. You can also read DSG #50123 9/15/05 that lists these wrong views. My simplest two-rupee answer is: "self" means an ego-entity, a soul or any other abiding substance that either exists forever(eternalism) or terminates after death(annihilationism). ............ Scott: There is precedence for the above view. In Wings to Awakening, Thanissaro Bhikkhu writes: "Given the well-known Buddhist teaching on not-self, some people have wondered why the questions of appropriate attention at this step would use such concepts as 'me' and 'my,' but these concepts are essential at this stage " where the mind is still more at home in the narrative mode of 'self' and 'others' " in pointing out that the focus of the inquiry should be directed within, rather than without. This helps to bring one's frame of reference to the experience of mental qualities as phenomena in and of themselves, and away from the narratives that provoked the anger to begin with. Only when this shift in reference is secure can the concepts of 'me' and 'my' be dispensed with, in the third step below." Or, "What then of the well-known Buddhist teachings on not-self? From a few of the ways in which these teachings are expressed in the texts, it might be inferred that the Buddha held to the principle that there is no self. Here, though, it is important to remember the Buddha's own comment on how his teachings are to be interpreted [AN 2.25]. With some of them, he said, it is proper to draw inferences, whereas with others it is not. Unfortunately, he did not illustrate this principle with specific examples. However, it seems safe to assume that if one tries to draw inferences from his statements to give either a categorical answer (No, there is no self; or Yes, there is) or an analytical answer (It depends on how you define 'self') to a question that the Buddha showed by example should not be asked or answered, one is drawing inferences where they should not be drawn." Scott: This, in my opinion, is not helpful. I don't think there is any room for equivocation on anatta. ........... T: I don't think your two quotes fairly represent Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's main viewpoint on not-self or no-self. I would recommend his following note in MN 22. Th. Bh. : "Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and then to recommend dropping them. For example, in his standard series of questions building on the logic of the inconstancy and stress of the aggregates, he does not say that because the aggregates are inconstant and stressful there is no self. He simply asks, When they are inconstant and stressful, is it proper to assume that they are "me, my self, what I am"? Now, because the sense of self is a product of "I-making," this question seeks to do nothing more than to induce disenchantment and dispassion for that process of I-making, so as to put a stop to it. Once that is accomplished, the teaching has fulfilled its purpose in putting an end to suffering and stress. That's the safety of the further shore. As the Buddha says in this discourse, "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress." As he also says here, when views of self are finally dropped, one is free from agitation; and as MN 140 points out, when one is truly unagitated one is unbound. The raft has reached the shore, and one can leave it there — free to go where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced". ........... T: MN 22(Alagaddupama Sutta) also teaches how self and not-self should be understood correctly such that one's ignorance can be abandoned, and the ariyan's right view can be established. This sutta IMHO explains clearly how worldlings, who live in the world of conventional truths, learn to gradually develop the ariyan's right view such that "anatta is true as a truth" may become "known" to them. This is the sutta I would recommend for non-ariyans who want to develop the ariyan's right view, the right way. It shows how one can cross the "huge gap between intellectual understanding and the special kind of panna that knows the truth". [Raft simile] ............ >T (asking Sarah): "Why would the Buddha teach people and devas if they did not suffer? And if they did not suffer, why did they come for His guidance for overcoming Dukkha? Maybe you cannot answer my questions because those 'people and devas' were nothing but illusion?" Scott: Here, suffering seems to refer to a vedanaa, perhaps domanassa. This would be dukkha-dukkhataa. There is also sankhaara- dukkhataa, in which dukkha is inherent in sankhaara; and vipainaama- dukkhataa or suffering due to change. In dukkha-dukkhataa vedanaa is anatta. It is a dhamma, having its own characteristic. It is no one and belongs to no one. Experience is naama. The fact of experience does not entail a person who experiences. T: Thank you for quoting the definitions of dukkha, according to the abhidhamma pitaka. But by claiming "It is no one and belongs to no one. Experience is naama. The fact of experience does not entail a person who experiences", you are not answering the question I asked Sarah. ............ >T(asking Sarah): "... Some of us want to talk as if they were ariyans already. But are you sure that you have no doubt whatsoever that 'all formations are impermanent....that all formations are subject to suffering...that all things are non-self', or are you just reciting it from the memory?" Scott: Who wants to talk as if they were ariyans already? Understanding anatta at an intellectual level and discussing this understanding, as noted above, does in no way mean that one is talking as if already an ariyan. Can you clarify this? To take it to its logical conclusion, no discussion of any 'higher' aspect of the Dhamma would then be possible. Surely this would be absurd. T: If you have never talked like "that", then you should not worry because it does not apply to you, right? It is still possible for us to take this discussion to a logical & not-self level, if the anger that accompanies an ego can be abandoned first. It's up to you, dear Scott. Tep === #75433 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contempla sarahprocter... Hi James, (& Mike*) --- buddhatrue wrote: > > Bak to the sukkhavipassaka! > > James: Oh bother! Frankly, I'm getting fed up with this subject! ;-)) ... S: No problem - drop out anytime!! ... > James: Yes, she seems to cling to this one passing mention in the > Vism. like it is the world! 99.9% of the Vism. is about meditation > practice (to use a Ken H.esque percentage ;-)) and she jumps on the > one small mention of the possibility of a dry-insight worker (which > can be interpreted in different ways)! Talk about grasping for > straws! ;-) .... S: No matter who or what, present dhammas have to be clearly understood. People have different accumulations, but still the 'meditation' (bhavaana) taught by the Buddha comes back to the development of satipatthana now. .... > > > "mainstream Theravada". > > ... > > S: By 'mainstream', I mean the accepted teaching as given in the > Tipitaka, > > inc. Abhidhamma, and ancient commentaries as rehearsed at the > Theravada > > Great Councils. > > James: The commentaries weren't rehearsed at the Great Councils. ... S: Well, some were. Some are incorporated into the Tipitaka. Others were incorporated and rehearsed not at the 1st Council, but at later Councils. In any case, they have always been accepted by 'traditional' Theravada sources and by the great Mahanama bhikkhus at Anuradhapura. .... > > >Buddhaghosa even writes in the Vism. that the > > > theory of the dry-insight worker is the theory of one particular > monk > > > and that no everyone agrees with it- even during Buddhaghosa's time. > > > ... > > S: Pls give me the quote or reference for this. > > James: I am rather tired to quote it right now. It is Vism. XXI, 111, > and footnote 38. .... S: I see your point and it's an interesting and difficult quote. I don't however read it the way you do. I don't read it as suggesting any doubt or question about whether there were 'dry-insight workers'. The question is not about this, but about what exactly determines the number of the enlightenment factors and whether or not this prior path (of sukkha-vipassaka vs jhaana attainemnt) is the determining factor. .... > > S: No one has said that the paths and fruits are achieved ONLY from > > studying/listening. > > James: Well, what in the devil are you saying then?!? What other > "practice in accordance with the Dhamma" do you advocate? .... S: pa.tipatti (practice of the teaching, as distinguished from pariyatti). This is the direct understanding of dhammas 'in accordance with the Dhamma'. It is not a 'doing' or prescribed activities. It is the direct understanding now, regardless of the activity. No self involved. ... > James: Yeah, I didn't misinterpret that one. If someone says > something to me and I say "Fine!" I don't usually mean it's great > news. ;-)) ... S: Well if someone suggests something, say 'lunch' to me, and I say 'fine!', it means I'm happy with the news:-)) I'll try not to reply to you with any more 'fine!!' replies":-)) .... > James: I am too tired right now to type out a bunch of quotes I type > out before (I am still a bit jet-lagged). Maybe later. ... S: As you like. Refs are OK too. ... > > S: Thx James. Who knows how conditions will unfold? For me, the most > > important thing is just developing the understanding of dhammas now. I > > don't think about what kind of path I may have or anything like that. > > James: Actually, I don't either. But it seems to me that the students > of KS are pretty gun-ho about the supposed "dry insight" path. Maybe > I am just too tired to really understand what you are trying to say...?? ... *S: This is relevant to Mike's thread. I think that even those who became enlightened during the Buddha's time, even great disciples, didn't know what or when any enlightenment cittas would arise or whether jhana would be the base or not. We have very little (if any) idea about previous accumulations, previous kamma and so on. For example, if there is rebirth in a brahma realm, who knows what accumulations may manifest? We can talk now about our accumulations for particular activities or kinds of food, but this is just in general for now. (Always good to hear from you, Mike, if you have anything further to add or comment). The point about the 'dry-insight' path is that what is important is the eradication of defilements and the path of vipassana, regardless. Any clinging has to be seen for what it is, regardless of whether it's for seeing now or jhana now. This is why it is a path of detachment. Thx for your comments, James. Hope you're settled back now.... Metta, Sarah ======== #75434 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] not hard to accept, a correction. sarahprocter... Dear Nina & Scott, I meant to re-quote these lines when I gave the full textual reference below: N: "...Tape: Metta, Sarah: --- sarah abbott wrote: > S: ...the Atthasalini, 'Remaining Types of > Consciousness', [159] on daana in this regard: > "Of these bases of meritorious action, (1) charity arises with the thought 'I will give charity,' when he is making the gift, and when he reflects 'I have given it.' Thus the three volitions - preliminary volition, volition at the time of making the gift, subsequent volition - become one, and constitute the basis of meritorious act consisting of charity." > >Paali: "Etesu pana pu~n~nakiriyavatthusu daanamaya.m naama 'daana.m dassaamii ti' cintentassa uppajjati, daana.m dadato uppajjati, 'dinnam me ti' paccavekkhantassa uppajjati. Evam pubbacetanaa mu~ncanacetanaa it tisso pi cetanaa ekato katvaa daanamyam pu~n~nakiriyavatthu naama hoti." ... S: Here clearly, the intention to act, act itself and reflection are referring to the one meritorious deed and paccavekkhana to the wise reflection with wisdom of such.< ============================= #75435 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:23 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. sarahprocter... Hi Mike, (Tep & Nina), Thanks for your good discussions on anicca sa~n~naa --- "m. nease" wrote: > > M: > ....However, even if aniccaa (or anatta) sa~n~naa does refer to insight, more particularly I think it must refer to the sa~n~naa when it arises at the same time as insight--that is that sa~n~naa itself is still just sa~n~naa--does this make sense? .... S: Yes, I'm sure this is correct. You were asking about references, I think. In 'Cetasikas', under 'Perception (sa~n~naa), Nina quotes from AN 10s, Ch V1, 6 'Ideas' [Pathamasa~n~naa Sutta] It refers to the development of the following 10 kinds of sa~n~naa, clearly all accompanied by the development of insight because it refers to the 'ending up of the deathless' [amatapariyosaanaa]. The ten are: -asubha sa~n~naa -mara.na sa~n~naa -aahaarepa.tikkuula -sabbeloke anabhiratasa~n~naa -anicca sa~n~naa -anicce dukkha sa~n~naa -dukkhe anatta sa~n~naa -pahaana sa~n~naa -viraaga sa~n~naa -nirodha sa~n~naa ***** Metta, Sarah ======== #75436 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (03) nilovg Dear Han, Op 23-aug-2007, om 3:40 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I understand clearly the manifestation of daana as > non-attachment. > > But I am not so clear how the manifestation of daana > is the achievement of prosperity and a favourable > state of existence? -------- N: Looking at the Thai I understand that the Pali has: bhava samapatti and vibhava samapatti is the manifestation. Samapatti is favorable. Bhava can be translated as becoming or existence. As to the term vibhava, apart from non-becoming, its first meaning is prosperity. One may believe that one loses one's property by giving away things. The opposite is the case. The result of such a good deed may be the increase of property, and it may also produce a happy rebirth. These are just the results of kusala kamma. But as we read, for the development of the perfections we should not cling to a happy result within the cycle of birth and death. As we have seen, . If we are unable to relinguish possessions, how could we ever relinguish the idea of self? Nina. #75437 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study nilovg Hi Howard, Op 22-aug-2007, om 22:36 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, did you have in mind 'viññanam anidassanam', as mentioned in the > Kevatta Sutta? There is found the following by the Buddha: > ___________________ > Your question should not be phrased in this way: Where do these > four great > elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire > property, and the > wind property — cease without remainder? Instead, it should be > phrased like > this: > > Where do water, earth, fire, & wind > have no footing? > ....And the answer to that is: Consciousness without feature, > without end, > luminous all around: > I do think this refers to nibbana. And it does use the term 'viññanam' > in that regard. However, it is not consciousness in the ordinary > sense - it > is an "unmanifestive" or "featureless" consciousness. Moreover, > "here" is "name > and form brought to an end." So, perhaps nibbana is nama as > "consciousness > without subject and without object". Perhaps that makes some sense: > With no > self, there is neither neither subject nor object, and yet > realization of nibbana > is not a blanking out but an awakening. So, 'viññanam' perhaps is not > inappropriate, so long as it is understood that this is not > remotely consciousness as > we know it. > _______ Yes, this was the text analysed by Suan, and it refers to nibbana. However, he explained that vi~n~naana.m does not refer to consciousness but to : what is to be known. It is not a luminous citta, that would still be citta and thus arising and falling away. If you substutute , by: nama but not nama that knows an object>, it is right. Nina. #75438 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) nilovg Dear Mike and Connie, Op 23-aug-2007, om 5:37 heeft m_nease het volgende geschreven: > Connie: Then there was Kali's mistress who was widely known for her > patience, which fell away so far that she hit the girl with a rolling > pin after having been fed up with her provocations. Conditions rule. > And I don't think we can say that 'o, i'm a good person in this > lifetime so i'm bound to be so in the next', like the next life is > formed around some 'middle ground' of this one instead of a single > past kamma, which we also can't pick... 'yes, let it be only a great > past kusala moment'. > > Thanks for this Connie, always good to hear from you. Sure, > conditions rule always as I see it. And I've always liked (in a > morbid sort of way) the story of Kali's mistress. But for the > rest--was there a point pertinent to our discussion of going forth and > the propriety of jhaanabhaavanaa for bhikkhus that I've missed? ------- N: This illustrates that a person may seem very, very patient, but if the right button is hit (as Chris once said) there can be an outburst of anger. It shows that we cannot know the latent tendencies, only when they condition defilements we know. Kh Sujin had an interesting remark about dreams: remembering our dreams we can see the akusala we have accumulated. They tell us something about our accumulated tendencies. As to jhaana for bhikkhus: let everybody follow his inclinations. A correction: it was the Abbot of the Thai temple in Kusinara who listened to Kh Sujin's tapes, not the Abbot of the Thai temple in Bodhgaya. Nina. #75439 From: han tun Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (03) hantun1 Dear Nina, I understand the points you have mentioned. What is not clear to me is this: on “manifestation” of daana, one moment it states “non-attachment”, and the next moment it states “the achievement of prosperity and a favourable state of existence.” If the “manifestation” of daana is “the increase of property and resulting in a happy rebirth”, where does the “non-attachment” come in? Here, we are talking about “manifestation”, and not “characteristic, or function or proximate cause.” It is this point which puzzles me. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > Op 23-aug-2007, om 3:40 heeft han tun het volgende > geschreven: > N: Looking at the Thai I understand that the Pali > has: bhava > samapatti and vibhava samapatti is the > manifestation. Samapatti is > favorable. Bhava can be translated as becoming or > existence. As to > the term vibhava, apart from non-becoming, its first > meaning is > prosperity. #75440 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 11, no 8. nilovg Dear friends, When we see visible object and we like the object it seems that seeing and liking occur at the same time. We do not realize that there is proximity-condition, anantara-paccaya, because of which each citta is succeeded by the next one, without any interval. Or we do not even realize that there is attachment to the object. We may think that there is seeing while there is in reality already clinging. Without knowing it we accumulate ever more akusala. It is important to have right understanding of cause and effect in our life. We like to experience pleasant objects and we may think that we can choose ourselves which objects we wish to experience. We buy beautiful things in order to look at them, we prepare delicious food in order to enjoy pleasant flavours. However, something can happen so that our expectations do not come true. It depends on kamma whether we experience a pleasant object or an unpleasant object at a particular moment. Kamma produces its appropriate result and when it is time for akusala vipåka it is unavoidable. We never know what will happen at the next moment, but when there is more understanding of cause and effect in our life we can be prepared to face whatever may happen. When there is right understanding of kamma and vipåka, the citta is at that moment kusala citta and there is no opportunity for aversion towards unpleasant experiences. When there is awareness of the characteristics of seeing, hearing, thinking and other realities which appear there will be less ignorance. We will gradually learn to distinguish between the moments of vipåka and the moments of kusala citta and akusala citta. -------- Nina. #75441 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 2, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, We read further on that Saccaka asked the Buddha to what extent a disciple becomes a doer of the instruction, one who accepts the exhortation, one who has overcome doubt and perplexity, and who lives according to the teacher’s instruction, won to conviction, not relying on others. The Buddha answered: “Now, Aggivessana, a disciple of mine in regard to whatever is rúpa, past, future, present, internal (personal) or outward, gross or subtle, low or excellent, distant or near, sees all rúpa as it really is by means of perfect intuitive wisdom as : This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self...” The Buddha said the same about the other khandhas. Saccaka asked how a monk becomes a perfected one, who has eradicated defilements, who will not be reborn again and is freed with profound knowledge. The Buddha stated that this is achieved when the monk, having seen the khandhas as “This is not mine, this am I not, this is not my self”, becomes freed with no further attachment. We see that time and again the Buddha spoke about the five khandhas which should be seen as they are. The object of understanding is the same, nåma and rúpa, but the understanding of them develops until arahatship has been attained and all defilements are eradicated. The five khandhas are not an abstraction, they arise and fall away even now. Feeling accompanies each citta, it may be pleasant, unpleasant or indifferent. Perception or remembrance, saññå, accompanies each citta, performing the function of remembering or recognizing. In Saòkhårakkhandha are included all sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas and akusala cetasikas, and these accompany kusala citta or akusala citta which arise in each process of cittas, no matter whether an object is experienced through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind-door. We cannot be reminded enough of what is kusala and what akusala, because we are ignorant of the cittas which arise. We often do not notice that there is akusala citta. Viññåùakkhandha is citta, arising and falling away each moment. That is what the Buddha taught: the development of understanding of all these realities appearing now. The Buddha said to Saccaka that the arahat who is freed reveres, esteems, reverences and honours the Tathågata with the following words: “The Lord is awakened, he teaches Dhamma for awakening; the Lord is tamed, he teaches Dhamma for taming; the Lord is calmed, he teaches Dhamma for calming; the Lord is crossed over, he teaches dhamma for crossing over; the Lord has attained nibbåna, he teaches Dhamma for attaining nibbåna.” The arahat has full understanding of the meaning of these words and thus he can give the highest honour and respect to the Buddha. Saccaka expressed his regret about the fact that he was so arrogant and presumptuous and that he tried to assail the Buddha by his speech. He invited the Buddha and the Order of monks to a meal and the Buddha accepted. ****** Nina. #75442 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:38 am Subject: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contempla buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, (& Mike*) > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > Bak to the sukkhavipassaka! > > > > James: Oh bother! Frankly, I'm getting fed up with this subject! ;-)) > ... > S: No problem - drop out anytime!! James: Yeah, I think I will. Boring topic and never-ending because we read the exact same texts entirely different. > ... > > James: Yeah, I didn't misinterpret that one. If someone says > > something to me and I say "Fine!" I don't usually mean it's great > > news. ;-)) > ... > S: Well if someone suggests something, say 'lunch' to me, and I say > 'fine!', it means I'm happy with the news:-)) I'll try not to reply to you > with any more 'fine!!' replies":-)) James: You can reply to me anyway you like. BTW, I meant to write "Yeah, I DID misinterpret that one"...oops...typo. Metta, James #75443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (03) nilovg Dear Han, Op 23-aug-2007, om 11:27 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > What is not clear to me is this: > on “manifestation” of daana, one moment it states > “non-attachment”, and the next moment it states “the > achievement of prosperity and a favourable state of > existence.” > > If the “manifestation” of daana is “the increase of > property and resulting in a happy rebirth”, where does > the “non-attachment” come in? > > Here, we are talking about “manifestation”, and not > “characteristic, or function or proximate cause.” > It is this point which puzzles me. ------- N: as to: “the increase of property and resulting in a happy rebirth" here there is reference to cause and result. It happens anyway, but there should not be attachment to this, it merely is a fact. When dana is a perfection, the giving is pure kusala, we do not give in order to have more prosperity. We give because we see the benefit of having less defilements, without clinging to an idea of 'me, who should be a good person'. Thus, the non-attachment is the pure kusala citta, it is in the citta of the giver, and the increase of property is the result of a cause, just a fact. Nobody can bring about the result of a cause, it happens by the law of kamma and vipaka. Nina. #75444 From: han tun Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (03) hantun1 Dear Nina, I thank you very much for your kind explanation. Respectfully, Han #75445 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:13 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply, many good points. If I may leave these for a time, I believe I'd like to address: T: "Thank you for the second come back to this on-going, no-ending discussion...I agree that Scott does not claim ariyan status; he only claims intellectual understanding that (he thinks) reflects his development of pa~n~naa...If you have never talked like 'that', then you should not worry because it does not apply to you, right? It is still possible for us to take this discussion to a logical & not-self level, if the anger that accompanies an ego can be abandoned first. It's up to you, dear Scott." Scott: Please clarify if you would, Tep. I believe I have, in this instance, misunderstood the presence of my name in parentheses as an invitation to reply when I should have read it to be a flag to merely read silently the portion of the post relevant to me. If 'the anger that accompanies ego' comes up for you in interacting with me, this would only be normal, I guess, but if, in my replying to you, the reply itself conditions this response, perhaps you would prefer that I remain silent unless directly addressed. Please let me know. I would be happy to take your direction on this either way. As I said, there are many points to be addressed should you wish to discuss with me. Thanks, Tep. Sincerely, Scott. #75446 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] not hard to accept, a correction. scottduncan2 Dear Sarah and Nina, Thanks, Nina, for the clarification, and Sarah for the below. I've been delayed as I prepared Rebecca for her trip to San Diego to visit her beloved older sister. N: "...Tape: other kammas produce results, it can be supportive kamma, upathambana kamma. For kamma to produce result it also needs upanissaya paccaya [N: natural decisive support-condition]. The cetanaa arising afterwards is also upanissaya paccaya, it is not the kamma that was already done.> Sarah: "...the Atthasalini, 'Remaining Types of Consciousness', [159] on daana in this regard: 'Of these bases of meritorious action, (1) charity arises with the thought 'I will give charity,' when he is making the gift, and when he reflects 'I have given it.' Thus the three volitions - preliminary volition, volition at the time of making the gift, subsequent volition - become one, and constitute the basis of meritorious act consisting of charity." Paali: "Etesu pana pu~n~nakiriyavatthusu daanamaya.m naama 'daana.m dassaamii ti' cintentassa uppajjati, daana.m dadato uppajjati, 'dinnam me ti' paccavekkhantassa uppajjati. Evam pubbacetanaa mu~ncanacetanaa it tisso pi cetanaa ekato katvaa daanamyam pu~n~nakiriyavatthu naama hoti." S: "Here clearly, the intention to act, act itself and reflection are referring to the one meritorious deed and paccavekkhana to the wise reflection with wisdom of such." Scott: Thanks for the Paa.li, since 'paccavekkhantassa uppajjati', if I'm understanding it, refers clearly to 'reflection' that was accompanied by pa~n~naa - since, I think, 'uppajjati' is past pa~n~naa, but I'll need another grammar lesson on this conjecture. At any rate, I'm satisfied that 'reflection' is not a 'consciously directed' act of thinking. Sincerely, Scott. #75447 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 11, no 1. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 8/23/07 1:17:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: > S: I think it's the 'controlling' nature of cetana combined with > ignorance, wrong view, sanna and other associated cetasikas which leads to > this idea of atta. > ===================== Sure! :-) Wit metta, Howard #75448 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] not hard to accept, a correction. sarahprocter... Dear Scott & all, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Thanks, Nina, for the clarification, and Sarah for the below. I've > been delayed as I prepared Rebecca for her trip to San Diego to visit > her beloved older sister. ... S: I understand. I might as well mention that Jon and I are also both rather delayed in many of our replies as at very short notice, I'm now helping him prepare for a trip tomorrow to Fiji (via New Zealand), to look at helping to draft laws there ....!! Metta, Sarah =========== #75449 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/23/07 5:00:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Yes, this was the text analysed by Suan, and it refers to nibbana. > However, he explained that vi~n~naana.m does not refer to > consciousness but to : what is to be known. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: That would be mere object of consciousness, not nama. I don't buy this idea at all. There is no reason for calling anything "nama" unless it is a mode of knowing or referencing. I can readily accept a reality that has the character of awareness with knowing not split from known, and I can accept calling it "nama", but something only known and without character of awareness has no justification for being called "nama". That would be like calling someone who is attacked an "attacker", or calling the recipient of many gifts "a philanthropist". There is just no point to that. ----------------------------------------- It is not a luminous > > citta, that would still be citta and thus arising and falling away. > If you substutute without subject and without object>, by: nama but not nama that knows > an object>, it is right. > --------------------------------------- Howard: The phrase "nama but not nama that knows" is just empty words, IMO, signifying nothing meaningful. There is no reason to be using the term 'nama' for something with no cognitive aspect. ==================== With metta, Howard #75450 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:43 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (65) nichiconn Dear friends, 12. So.lasanipaato XII. The Section of the Group of Sixteen [Verses] 1. Pu.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 1. The commentary on the verses of Therii Pu.n.naa part 1 of 11 txt: So.lasanipaate udahaarii aha.m siiteti-aadikaa pu.n.naaya theriyaa gaathaa. Ayampi purimabuddhesu kataadhikaaraa tattha tattha bhave viva.t.tuupanissaya.m kusala.m upacinantii vipassissa bhagavato kaale kulagehe nibbattitvaa vi~n~nuta.m patvaa hetusampannataaya sa~njaatasa.mvegaa bhikkhuniina.m santika.m gantvaa dhamma.m sutvaa laddhappasaadaa pabbajitvaa parisuddhasiilaa tii.ni pi.takaani uggahetvaa bahussutaa dhammadharaa dhammakathikaa ca ahosi. Yathaa ca vipassissa bhagavato saasane, eva.m sikhissa vessabhussa kakusandhassa ko.naagamanassa kassapassa ca bhagavato saasane pabbajitvaa siilasampannaa bahussutaa dhammadharaa dhammakathikaa ca ahosi. Pruitt: In the section of sixteen [verses], the verses beginning I am a water carrier. Even in the cold weather are Therii Pu.n.naa's.* She too performed meritiorious deeds under previous Buddhas and accumulated good [actions] in various lives as [her] basis for release. At the time of the Blessed One Vipassii, she was born in the home of a [good] family. When she came of age, because of the maturing of the prerequisites, a profound stirring arose in her and she went to the bhikkhuniis. She heard the Doctrine, obtained faith, and went forth. She was of pure virtuous conduct, learned the three collections [of texts], was one of great learning, was expert in the Doctrine, and was a preacher of the Doctrine. And just as she went forth in the teaching of the Blessed One Vipassii, so too she went forth under Sikhii, Vessabhuuu, Kakusandha, Ko'naagamana, and Kassapa, and possessed virtuous conduct, was one of great learning, was expert in the Doctrine, and was a preacher of the Doctrine. *The rubric in Thii gives her name as Pu.n.nikaa. RD's note on her name adds: Possibly Pu.n.nikaa may have been used to distinguish her from the Therii Pu.n.naa of Ps. iii. It is curious that in the Subha-Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaaya, where young brahmins come to the Jeta Grove, Anaathapi.n.dika's gift, to interview the Buddha, a slave-girl Pu.n.nikaa is alluded to in the conversation. Subha says: 'They [certain brahmin teachers] are not able to read the thoughts of slave-girl Pu.n.nikaa. How should they be able to know the minds of all recluses?' If this is our Pu.n.nikaa, she would not yet be a Therii, or she would be referred to as such. RD: SHE, too, having made her resolve under former Buddhas, and heaping up good of age-enduring efficacy in this and that rebirth, was, when Vipassi was Buddha, reborn in a clansman's family. Come to years of discretion, because of the promise that was in her, she waxed anxious at the prospect of rebirth, and, going to the Bhikkhuniis, heard the Norm, believed, and entered the Order. Perfect in virtue, and learning the Three Pitakas, she became very learned in the Norm, and a teacher of it. The same destiny befell her under the five succeeding Buddhas - Sikhi, Vessabhu, Kakusandha, Ko.naagamana, and Kassapa. txt: Maanadhaatukattaa pana kilese samucchinditu.m naasakkhi. Maanopanissayavasena kammassa katattaa imasmi.m buddhuppaade anaathapi.n.dikassa se.t.thino gharadaasiyaa kucchimhi nibbatti, pu.n.naatissaa naama.m ahosi. Saa siihanaadasuttantadesanaaya (ma. ni. 1.146 aadayo) sotaapannaa hutvaa pacchaa udakasuddhika.m braahma.na.m dametvaa se.t.thinaa sambhaavitaa hutvaa tena bhujissabhaava.m paapitaa ta.m pabbajja.m anujaanaapetvaa pabbajitvaa vipassanaaya kamma.m karontii na cirasseva saha pa.tisambhidaahi arahatta.m paapu.ni. Pruitt: But since she had developed the element of pride, she could not abolish the defilements. And because of the action[s] she did based on her pride, in this Buddha era, she was conceived in the womb of a house servant of the merchant Anaathapi.n.dika. She was named Pu.n.naa. She became a Stream-Winner through [hearing] the teaching of "The Discourse on the Lion's Roar."* Afterwards, she tamed the brahman intent on purification by water. She was honoured by the merchant who had her made a free woman. She asked him for permission to go forth, and having gone forth, she devoted herself to the gaining of insight. In a very short time she attained Arahatship together with the [four] discriminations. *Siihanaada-suttanta (probably the Mahaasiihanaada-sutta, M n*20 (I 68-83 [MLDB 164-78]). RD: But because of her tendency to pride, she was unable to root out the defilements. *330 So it came to pass, through the karma of her pride, that, in this Buddha-era, she was reborn at Saavatthii, in the household of Anaathapi.n.dika, the Treasurer, of a domestic slave. She became a Stream-entrant after hearing the discourse of the Lion's Roar. *331 Afterwards, when she had converted (lit. tamed) the baptist *332 brahmin, and so won her master's esteem that he made her a freed woman, she obtained his consent, as her guardian and head of her home, to enter the Order. And, practising insight, she in no long time won Arahantship, together with thorough grasp of the Norm in form and in meaning. *330 Kilesaa. For the ten, see Buddh. Psy., pp. 327, ff. *331 Majjhima Nikaaya, i., Sutta xi. or xii. *332 Udakasuddhika. Believer in purification through water (as a mystic rite), and not through sacrifice by fire. ===tbc, connie. *CAF Rhys Davids: Psalms of the Sisters, with the Chronicle from the Commentary by Dhammapaala entitled 'The Elucidation of the Highest Meaning'. PTS 1909 @ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html *Wm Pruitt: The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis: Theriigaathaa-A.t.thakathaa, Paramatthadiipanii VI by Aacariya Dhammapaala. PTS 1999 *txt/cy: vri #75451 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:49 am Subject: Re: Another post about mindfulness nichiconn mike: --was there a point pertinent to our discussion of going forth and the propriety of jhaanabhaavanaa for bhikkhus that I've missed? connie: no, sorry! just rambling. #75452 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study nilovg Hi Howard, The whole matter is not all that important to me. I just mentioned what was in the Atthasalini. Thanks for your observations. Nina. Op 23-aug-2007, om 14:00 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The phrase "nama but not nama that knows" is just empty words, IMO, > signifying nothing meaningful. There is no reason to be using the > term 'nama' > for something with no cognitive aspect. #75453 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:16 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Scott (and others), - I have observed over decades that intelligent people are sensitive, quite often too sensitive, and self confident in the sense that they are opinionated, too opinionated ['Only this is right. I know and I see it'.] Since I am not that intelligent (you can ask KenH for his confirmation), Scott, I am not "too sensitive" and, therefore, often have failed to think about the consequence of a statement I was going to make. So, please accept my apology for having disappointed/angered/bothered you in the earlier post because of my being dense. >Scott: ...but if, in my replying > to you, the reply itself conditions this response, perhaps you would > prefer that I remain silent unless directly addressed. > Please let me know. I would be happy to take your direction on this > either way. As I said, there are many points to be addressed should > you wish to discuss with me. Thanks, Tep. T: I do not have any pre-condition/preference about how and when anyone should come in and join the discussion. In fact, I always appreciate it when my post is good enough( or bad enough ?) for a further discussion ! Yes, I always wish and want to discuss with you, Scott. But remember, no one discusses the Dhamma!! Tep === #75454 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:28 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "...Yes, I always wish and want to discuss with you, Scott. But remember, no one discusses the Dhamma!! " Scott: Understood. Sincerely, Scott. #75455 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/23/07 9:12:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > The whole matter is not all that important to me. I just mentioned > what was in the Atthasalini. Thanks for your observations. > Nina. > Op 23-aug-2007, om 14:00 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >The phrase "nama but not nama that knows" is just empty words, IMO, > >signifying nothing meaningful. There is no reason to be using the > >term 'nama' > >for something with no cognitive aspect. > ======================== :-) Actually, it's not all that important to me either! LOL! You know? I've been thinking a bit recently about concept and reality in the following respect: I think we can do too much thinking. We form all these general ideas, for example of "hardness" or "warmth" or "liking," and when we experience something, we jump to affix such a label to it, thinking that we've tidily summed up the experience by doing so. But the more I "watch" the clearer it becomes to me that each moment is fresh, and its content is what it is - unique and never exactly seen before. There is a beauty in seeing this freshness and uniqueness that is diminished by our labeling, I think. With metta, Howard #75456 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] not hard to accept, a correction. nilovg Dear Scott, uppajjati: to arise, be produced. I think; to come about. Nina. Op 23-aug-2007, om 12:42 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I think, 'uppajjati' is past > pa~n~naa, but I'll need another grammar lesson on this conjecture. #75457 From: "nidive" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:13 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Ken H, > But I would just like to mention the best of all explanations of > how the flood was crossed. It was crossed by magga citta. That is, > by citta with supramundane right view. For me, the arahant's magga citta is the *act* of crossing over the floods. *How* the act is achieved is by means of developing the seven factors of awakening to completion. > Don't give up the day job. :-) LOL! Do you mean you actually keep track of when I post? Swee Boon #75458 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study moellerdieter Hi Howard , Nina .. trying to put the recent communication together.. please comment in case of misunderstandings.. Howard: Nina, did you have in mind 'viññanam anidassanam', as mentioned in the Kevatta Sutta? There is found the following by the Buddha: ___________________ 'Your question should not be phrased in this way: ..snip ..And the answer to that is: Consciousness without feature..snip' D: D.N. 11 , the Kevatta Sutta is indeed an interesting sutta .. (I wonder , Nina, how you liked reading it .? ;-) ) H:' I do think this refers to nibbana. And it does use the term 'viññanam' in that regard. However, it is not consciousness in the ordinary sense - it is an "unmanifestive" or "featureless" consciousness. Moreover, "here" is "name and form brought to an end." So, perhaps nibbana is nama as "consciousness without subject and without object". Perhaps that makes some sense: With no self, there is neither neither subject nor object, and yet realization of nibbana is not a blanking out but an awakening. So, 'viññanam' perhaps is not inappropriate, so long as it is understood that this is not remotely consciousness as we know it.' D: I consider this phrase a bit strange ..and was not surprised to find a special note by BB in respect to his sutta translation:' Notes 1. Viññanam anidassanam. This term is nowhere explained in the Canon, although MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud 1.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud 8.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time. The standard description of nibbana after death is, "All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here." (See MN 140 and Iti 44.) Again, as "all" is defined as the sense media, this raises the question as to whether consciousness without feature is not covered by this "all." However, AN 4.174 warns that any speculation as to whether anything does or doesn't remain after the remainderless stopping of the six sense media is to "complicate non-complication," which gets in the way of attaining the non-complicated. Thus this is a question that is best put aside.' (D: I doubt that there is a canonical source which will prove that nibbana can be called nama.Would be interesting to learn otherwise.) N: There is a text wherenibbana is called vi~n~naa.na. Suan wrote a good post about this. Here it is vi~n~naa.na not in the sense of consciousness which knows but: that which can be known.So, we have to look at the context. N: Yes, this was the text analysed by Suan, and it refers to nibbana. However, he explained that vi~n~naana.m does not refer to consciousness but to : what is to be known. It is not a luminous citta, that would still be citta and thus arising and falling away. If you substutute , by: nama but not nama that knows an object>, it is right. H: That would be mere object of consciousness, not nama. I don't buy this idea at all. There is no reason for calling anything "nama" unless it is a mode of knowing or referencing. I can readily accept a reality that has the character of awareness with knowing not split from known, and I can accept calling it "nama", but something only known and without character of awareness has no justification for being called "nama". That would be like calling someone who is attacked an "attacker", or calling the recipient of many gifts "a philanthropist". There is just no point to that. ----------------------------------------- N: It is not a luminous citta, that would still be citta and thus arising and falling away. If you substutute , by: nama but not nama that knows an object>, it is right. > --------------------------------------- Howard: The phrase "nama but not nama that knows" is just empty words, IMO, signifying nothing meaningful. There is no reason to be using the term 'nama' for something with no cognitive aspect. N:The whole matter is not all that important to me. I just mentioned what was in the Atthasalini. Thanks for your observations. ( N: The Expositor II, p. 501, gives explanations about nama. There is a word association with namati, bending. The four namakkhandhas bend towards an object, experience an object. Nibbana is a naama that does not experience an object. Thus, nibbana is the object and it causes lokuttara citta and cetasikas to bend towards itself. In the Compendium, first conditioned dhammas have been dealt with and at the end it describes nibbaana. That is why it comes after ruupa. In the Dhammasangani we find the word aruupa for nibbana (appendix 2, 1092). Aruupa can denote naama. Naama is frequently called aruupa in the co. Usually nibbaana is called the unconditioned element, asankhata dhaatu.) :H: :-) Actually, it's not all that important to me either! LOL! snip D: As I see it , important is that there is a common understanding of terms we are talking about , otherwise discussions develop to loops ..which may be ok for the pleasure of communication but less for a progress à view and insight.. I haven't come closer to an understanding about the common of the categories of Abhidhamma (Paramattha Dhammas)..due to the involvement of nibbana . . Calling nibbana 'nama ', a term used in context within the 5 khandas , is not possible without obvious contradiction to the agreed ' nibbana is free from the khandas'...and somehow it seems to me that interpretations try to look it otherwise I am quite happy with the Sutta Pitaka , so I wonder whether I should leave the study of Abhidhamma for the 'Abhidhammikas '..;-) what do you think? with Metta Dieter #75459 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] The no-eternal-soul concept exists in Christianity nilovg Dear Charles, just today I had to answer a Q. about soul on the Pali list. Maybe you find it interesting, since absence of a living soul is used as a synonaym for anatta the Buddha taught. nisatta: not aliving being, and nijiiva absence of life. Jiiva is life or living principle. If you do not mind the Pali I can quote, or just look at the translation: It means anattaa, but I find the terms nissattadhammo, nijjiivadhammo, helpful to consider so as to have more understanding of anattaa. The Saddaniti states: We read about dhamma as anattaa: The Tiika to the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (a 12th cent. Pali thesaurus) explains as to nissattataa: Jiiva could be translated as life principle, or soul. Cakkhuvi~n~naa.na, seeing, that arises is not a living being, it merely arises, performs its function of seeing and then falls away. But we keep on thinking of self, a living being who sees. Seeing does not breathe as a living being does. Nissatta, nijjiva is a good reminder that helps us to consider seeing, colour, hearing, feeling, attachment, all realities in the right way. It is helpful to see colour as nissatta, nijjiva, since we keep on believing that we see a person. Only colour is seen, and it is not a living being. Later on there is thinking on account of what is seen, such as a concept of a person. > Nina. Op 22-aug-2007, om 17:47 heeft Charles DaCosta het volgende geschreven: > In the Bible, the soul is often equated with the total person. > Nothing in > the scriptures indicates that the soul is some immaterial entity or > essence > that lives on after death. However, it does often refer to a life, > human or > animal, or to the life that a creature enjoys as a living soul. #75460 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study nilovg Dear Dieter, The problem with English terms is that there are many different interpretations of them. Ultimate or absolute is not an ideal translation. Ven. Narada made his own notes, it is not the text. Nibbaana is also a dhamma, but it is lokuttara dhamma, and asankhata dhamma, unconditioned dhamma. You raise many points, but perhaps you may be interested in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and Co as translated by Wijeratne and Gethin, Summary of the topics of Abhidhamma, PTS 2002. I quote from this book : Pali text: Sabbathaa means in all. Now the ancient co., the abhidhammattha vibhaavivii: < Thus having first finished honouring the triple Gem and so on for the reasons referred to, now, in order to indicate in brief the topics of Abhidhamma which the work sets out to summarize, he utters the words beginning [The topics---] spoken of therein (tattha vuttaa). Therein- in the Abhidhamma-the topics of abhidhamma spoken of in full, as wholesome and so on, and as aggregates and so on, from the ultimate sttandpoint- by way of ultimate exposition, setting aside conventional talk- are four- are classified in four ways, namely: consciousness (citta), the aggregate of consciousness (vi~n~naa.na); mentalities, the three aggregates beginning with feeling; materiality differentiated as the elements and dependent (materialities) [N: the four great elements and the derived ruupas]; nibbaana, the unconditioned dhamma which becomes the object of the paths and the fruits. This is the grammatical construction. Ultimate means in the ultimate, highest and undistorted sense; or it is the sense that comes within the sphere of knowledge that is highest and ultimate.> N: Thus it is different from the conventional sense: man, woman, etc. You may like to get this book. Nina. Op 22-aug-2007, om 20:09 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > D: citta, cetasika, rupa are real because they are experienced in > the present reality but nibbana can not (yet).... the grouping does > not fit , does it? > Nibbana is not unconditioned dhamma because dhamma /dhammas refer > to all mental, material phenomena/ things rising and ceasing due to > its conditioning. > Nibbana is unconditioned . full stop .......... isn't it? #75461 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study nilovg Dear Dieter, It depends on your own inclination what to study. I quoted the text of the Abh. Sangaha and co in my other post and you can see whether it is of interest to you or not. It may throw some light on paramattha dhammas and why there are four. It depends on your interest. Citta, cetasika and rupa are realities of our life at this moment. Nibbana is far away now and it is more beneficial to have now understanding of citta, cetasika and rupa. Nina. Op 23-aug-2007, om 20:02 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > Calling nibbana 'nama ', a term used in context within the 5 > khandas , is not possible without obvious contradiction to the > agreed ' nibbana is free from the khandas'...and somehow it seems > to me that interpretations try to look it otherwise > > I am quite happy with the Sutta Pitaka , so I wonder whether I > should leave the study of Abhidhamma for the 'Abhidhammikas '..;-) #75462 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] not hard to accept, a correction. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for: N: "uppajjati: to arise, be produced. I think; to come about." Scott: Yes, I was way off. 'Pajaanaati', not 'pajjati' was what I was thinking of. Sincerely, Scott. #75463 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:10 pm Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. indriyabala Hi Mike, - It is getting more interesting. > T: I have a one-peso comment : Hearing the Dhamma, but not making > conscientious effort to develop the four foundations of mindfulness, > is not the nutriment for the "anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa > moments" to arise". That may be a reason why "these moments are >still very, very rare". Mike: It could be, I agree--but hearing the Dhamma must come before bhaavanaa, ("making conscientious effort"?) don't you think? I think that the great rarity of unperverted perception (or any other kusala factor), even for those who have heard the Dhamma, is the result of accumulated akusala more than anything else. Of course I could be mistaken--just my one-baht opinion. T: Yes, I think so. It is my understanding that "making conscientious effort" is a supporting condition for bhaavanaa in order to culminate kusala dhammas. ["With a noble disciple who has conviction, it may be expected that he will keep his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities, that he will be steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities." SN 48.50] In my view your opinion is worth more than thousand bahts. Thanks. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m_nease" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi Mike (and Nina) - > > > > >Mike: for most people, anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa through > > > satipatthana are NOT options--because most people haven't heard the > > > Dhamma. For those who have heard the Dhamma it is a real > > >possibility,as I see it, but these moments are still very, very rare. #75464 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:50 pm Subject: Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) indriyabala Dear Sarah (Nina, and Han) - I hope this reply is not too long to read. S: You mentioned to me (off-list in passing) before that you had been reflecting a lot on old age and living a long life. I mentioned that I knew Han and Nina would be glad to hear any more of your reflections on this. I would too. T: I wonder if you ever have forgotten anything! Thank you for the kind request. Contemplation of jara-marana gladdens me. ["When he sees ageing-and-death as impermanent gladness springs up in him; when he is glad happiness springs up in him; when his mind is happy his body becomes tranquil; when his body is tranquil he feels pleasure; when he has pleasure his cognizance becomes concentrated; when his cognizance is concentrated he knows and sees correctly; when he knows and sees correctly he becomes dispassionate; when he becomes dispassionate his greed fades away; with the fading away of greed he is liberated." Patism. I, 407.] S: When I was young, I always had a lot of assoication with elderly people -at school, I used to do a lot of voluntary work helping the elderly and I worked for a while in a centre for the elderly as a warden. I learnt a lot about the importance of 'attitude'. I remember one elderly lady who I used to love to visit. She was bed-ridden and blind, but always cheerful and interested in others. Then there were those who were still quite active, but full of self-pity. T: I am glad to hear a real case of this elderly, who overcame self- pity and could rise above her physical limitations to be magnanimous. Being unable to move around is bad enough, let alone the blindness that is like getting trapped in a completely dark space for a long time. I wonder how she did it, assuming she knew nothing about satipatthana. S: As always, it comes back to the present cittas, don't you think? The pains and aches we had yesterday have gone. What about now? Is there any awareness? Just the world though one sense-door or the mind- door at a time. T: Yes, I think the old lady's story is an excellent example of continuously bright kusala cittas that work through time, "one at a time". My mom lived through her pains and immobility the same way. It was not difficult for her because she was a true Buddhist. She never complained about anything, or showed even a slight frustration. ... >T: Beyond "seeing is believing" is experiencing an old body that is disintegrating like you've described. ... S: Again, I think it's a question of one citta at a time. Some young people have a lot of sickness and some elderly people very little. It depends on vipaka and more importantly on accumulations as to how much dosa follows the unpleasant bodily feeling. I'll look forward to any further comments. T: The tough thing to do when the old body is rapidly disintegrating is to have sati-sampajjanna that rides along with the ageing process-- in other words, the mind also rapidly adjusts and accepts the deteriorating body with equanimity. Hence, no dosa arises. ........... S: I think the sutta quote you gave, Tep, was very relevant.... What is most important is to understand all such dhammas as anatta. As we read a couple of times in the Vism (#74579): ""The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 171. Now it was also asked, 'Whose is the fruit, since there is no experiencer?' Herein: 'Experiencer' is a convention For mere arising of the fruit; They say 'It fruits' as convention, When on a tree appears its fruit. 172. Just as it is simply owing to the arising of tree fruits, which are one part of the phenomena called a tree, that it is said 'The tree fruits' or 'The tree has fruited', so it is simply owing to the arising of the fruit consisting of the pleasure and pain called experience, which is one part of the aggregates 'deities' and 'human beings', that it is said 'A deity or human being experiences or feels pleasure or pain'. There is therefore no need at all here for a superfluous experiencer."< ***** T: Thank you very much, Sarah. I like the above extract from the Vism, because although it is a description using the Abhidhamma perspective, yet it also blends in the conventional truth of the real- world; i.e. there are tree-and-its-fruits phenomena, and there is the abstract view of the beholder who focuses on the ultimate reality. I understand that the arising of a "fruit on a tree" is real, not an illusion. However, the fruit is seen with the abhidhamma view that it is just a becoming event -- a phenomenon (dhamma) in abstraction. Of course, there are no experiencers in the abstract/ultimate world. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Tep, Nina & Han. > > I think that jara (old age) is a good topic. I suggested Han could send a > series on this, but he thought no one would be interested. Quite the > contrary, I'm sure. > #75465 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:15 pm Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > > But I would just like to mention the best of all explanations of > > how the flood was crossed. It was crossed by magga citta. That is, > > by citta with supramundane right view. > > For me, the arahant's magga citta is the *act* of crossing over the > floods. *How* the act is achieved is by means of developing the seven > factors of awakening to completion. > Hi Swee Boon, I think your words "for me" are cause for concern. The meaning of the Pali texts does not change to suit individual readers. ------------------ > > Don't give up the day job. :-) > > LOL! Do you mean you actually keep track of when I post? ------------------- No, I haven't been keeping tabs on you. :-) However, I do remember something you wrote back in July of last year. You warned against interpreting the Dhamma in accordance with one's own poetic highs. I liked that phrase. But what has changed since then? Why have you decided to ditch the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries and follow your own poetic highs? If I could suggest an answer I would say you have finally realised that, according to the original texts, anatta really does mean no self. And you don't like that. You prefer the cosy religious (poetic) view of the Dhamma that says anatta doesn't make much difference. It says we can believe in anatta and still believe in something that progresses from its present [unenlightened] state to a future [enlightened] state. Correct me if I'm wrong. Ken H #75466 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon & all, --- nidive wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > Just to be clear, the ayatanas refer to eye and visible object, ear > > and sound.......Mind (i.e.cittas) and mind-objects (i.e.those > > paramattha dhammas only appearing through the mind-door. These are > > cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana.) > > I know. That is according to Abhidhamma, where 'concepts' are > 'eliminated' throughout all the external ayatanas. But I believe the > suttas tell a different story. .... S: Vism, XV, 13: "in brief the twelve bases are simply mentality-materiality [nama-rupa] because the mind base and one part of the mental-data base are included in mentality, and the rest of the bases in materiality." This is true whether we are talking about the ayatanas (meeting points) in the Vinaya, Suttanta or Abhidhamma. No distinction. However, I agree that many modern scholars, like you, believe the suttas tell a different story. ... > > S: Good question. As Howard said, the concepts are not real and > > therefore are not impermanent. I think it is very important to > > distinguish what is real and what is not. > > I disagree. 'Concepts' are just as real as paramattha dhammas. ... S: Let's use your example of a tree. Can you see a tree or can you only think about a tree? What exactly is seen? What exactly is touched? .... > Isn't a tree a 'concept' according to Abhidhamma? Does that mean when > I am merely looking at a tree, I am engaged in imaginations and story- > telling? No, I am just looking at the tree which appears right in > front of my eyes. I didn't imagine it. .... S: You think you're looking at a tree. Actually, all that is seen, all that appears is a visible object (or form). SN 35:23 (Bodhi transl): "And what, bhikkhus, is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds, the nose and odours, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactile objects, the mind and mental phenomena {S: dhammaayatana)." S: In other words, the 12 ayatanas - simply namas and rupas as it says in the Vism quote above. No concepts. .... > The tree with lush green leaves that I am looking at is not a castle- > in-the-sky. But the tree with golden glittering leaves which I > imagine in my mind, that is a castle-in-the-sky. ... S: There are different kinds of concepts such as those which make known what really exist, such as sound or hardness. Then there are those which make known what does not really exist in an ultimate sense, such as computer or tree. Then there are concepts which make known the totally unreal by way or the unreal such as castle-in-the-sky. Lots of detail is given in the texts. See 'Concepts' in U.P. However, they are all concepts and the path to liberation is by knowing paramattha dhammas, not by knowing concepts. .... > The tree with golden glittering leaves is a fantasy, but the tree > with lush green leaves is not. ... S: The tree with lush green leaves is a concept, but without rupas seen, heard and touched, it's unlikely there would be this concept, though someone living in the desert who has heard about such trees or seen pictures, will still have such ideas. .... > I contend that the tree with lush green leaves that I am looking at > comes under the external eye ayatana and the tree with golen > glittering leaves that I imagine in my mind comes under the external > mind ayatana. .... S: Well, you're not alone in your belief, Swee Boon! .... > The tree with lush green leaves is not an idea, it is a sight. > Likewise, The tree with golden glittering leaves is not a sight, it > is an idea. ... S: We agree on the golden leaves as being an idea anyway. .... > > S: What about the rupas making up the computer? Hairs and dust and > > crumbs fall on them....they wear down, break down.....just like the > > body! > > I concede on this too. But I still maintain satipatthana only > includes rupas of the physical body. ... S: What about sound that is heard now or hardness when there is touching of the key-board? Are they not real? Can there not be awareness of them? .... > > This is evident in MN 28 where the Buddha distinguishes between > internal & external earth/liquid/fire/wind elements, and describes > how contemplation on internal earth/liquid/fire/wind elements leads > to release. > > The emphasis is always on the internal elements. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html ... S: MN 28 (Nanamoli transl): "And what is the material form aggregate affected by clinging? It is the four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements. And what are the four great elements? They are the earth element, the water element, the fire element, and the air element." S: Note: 'the material form derived from the four great elements' are the other 24 rupas. These include visible object, sound, taste and so on. They do not include trees of any description. Why? Trees of any description are not rupas (or namas). They are concepts. "Now both the internal earth [water, fire, air] element and the external earth [water, fire, air] element are simply earth element. And that should be seen as it actually is with proper wisdom thus: 'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.' " S: Whether one touches the hardness of the body or the hardness of the computer, what is experienced is just hardness (earth element). There can be awareness of it and it makes no difference whether one calls it internal or external. This is just thinking about it. The same applies temperature. The experience of heat or cold is real. The ideas about 'my arm heat' or 'the computer heat' are just ideas. Likewise, when seeing sees visible object, that is the reality. Ideas about green trees, computers or arms are just ideas based on what has been seen and recalled. It's a good discussion and I quite understand and accept that you have a different interpretation of the suttas, Swee Boon. Metta, Sarah ======== #75467 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > > > When experiencing an unclassifiable object, how does one know > > > that it is of a paramattha dhamma or of a concept? > > .... > > S: Very good question! Better to just understand what paramattha > > dhammas are and to develop understanding of them without being > > side-tracked by the technical details. For some it's helpful to > > appreciate the detailed mechanics, but in terms of the development > > of satipatthana, it's not important at all. > >SB: If the theory is flawed or incomplete, how can it condition faith to > arise? .... S: In what way to you think the theory is flawed or incomplete? I agree that if one has this idea, it's better to explore further so that faith will develop. In my experience, when there seems to be a flaw in any part of the (Pali)teachings, it always points to a lack of understanding on my part. .... > > >S: If there is awareness of the characteristic of visible object, for > > example, it makes no difference at all whether it is the > > paramattha dhamma known in the sense-door process or the paramattha > > dhamma by way of unclassifiable object in the mind-door process. The > > characteristic is exactly the same. When there is thinking about the > > visible object, one knows the object is a concept. > >SB: How do you know that the characteristic is exactly the same? Do you > speak this from direct experience? Should I take what you said on > faith? .... S: Firstly, the characteristic is given as exactly the same in the texts. Secondly, I am quite sure no distinction will ever be found. If there was no distinction in the quality for the great arahants, there is not going to be for us. Those with highly developed wisdom can know whether it is awareness of sound in the sense-door or immediately following mind-door process, but the sound is just sound. .... >>S:...Thus, the insight gets closer and closer to the > > paramattha dhamma itself. > >SB: How do you know that the insight gets closer and closer to the > paramattha dhamma itself? Again, do you speak this from direct > experience? .... S: Again, we can read about the development of insight in the texts. As the various stages of insight are developed, the precise nature of paramattha dhammas is known more and more clearly. First the clear distinction between namas and rupas has to be known. Later, the arising and falling away of such namas and rupas. Eventually, complete dispassion from all such namas and rupas. Even by understanding the clear distinction between paramattha dhammas (namas and rupas) vs concepts, there is a moving closer to an understanding of the former. Whilst we take concepts for realities and trees for rupas, such insight cannot arise. .... > >S: However, the most important thing is to clearly understand the > > difference between paramattha dhammas and concepts so that > > awareness and understanding of the former can develop. This is why > > the pariyatti is so important for patipatti. > >SB: But the last piece of the puzzle has not been put into place! ... S:I like your questions, but I'm lost on this one. Pls elaborate on what this puzzle piece is. We were talking about unclassifiable objects as I recall.... .... > > > If it is not possible to know, of what good is the distinction > > > between a paramattha dhamma and a concept? > > ... > > S: It is possible to know and for the wisdom to develop, becoming > > stronger and stronger, knowing the characteristics of paramattha > > dhammas more and more precisely. > > Isn't this just mere assertion? .... S: Visible object now - just that which is seen, the only world at a moment of seeing. There can be awareness of it, Swee Boon. Even if it's only understood correctly in theory now, wisdom is developing. As it becomes more and more obvious and clear, faith grows and it becomes more than just assertion. Let me know if I've missed any of your points. I like your difficult questions and comments. Keep them up! Metta, Sarah ======= #75468 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Sarah: As you've said before, it doesn't matter if we disagree about > some of our conclusions. We all consider what we read carefully and > the refs and discussion is helpful. > > T: Agreed. Actually, I like what you (and Nina) always say, "only > panna can know at any given moment". Now, since 'panna' is a > conditioned dhamma that rises and falls independently of our effort, > aren't we hopeless in trying (with an effort to condition samvara and > panna) to maintain peaceful discussion (kusala) all the time? .... S: In a way, yes. It is completely hopeless to try with an idea of self to do anything or to change what has been conditioned at this moment already. If there is annoyance now, trying to change it merely indicates attachment (and possibly wrong view). What is more important is to develop panna regardless of what arises. By understanding and appreciating more what are the realities, what is kusala, what is akusala, what is merely an idea, there will be conditions for sila to gradually be purified. Whilst we cling to an idea of self in charge, this can never happen. .... >>T: ....why discuss the >> Dhamma if (there is the Dhamma, but) there is no one discussing? > ........ > > S: !! Because cittas discuss and some cittas need to be developed and > other cittas exposed for what they are! > > T: Cittas don't have eyes, hands, and brain to read, think, and type > on a computer keyboard. .... S: When we talk about eyes, hands, brain and computer, these are concepts, ideas. Actually, there are just a complex process of different cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away. .... > S: Thanks, Tep. "Very Helpful"!!! > > Thank you for giving the kid the cookie it wanted. {:-) ... S: Oh, that's an easy cookie! Just spell it out anytime I'm not giving you the cookie you want {:-) Very Helpful !! Sarah ======= #75469 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: not hard to accept. sarahprocter... Dear Scott, Nina, Howard & all, --- Scott Duncan wrote: We're discussing the Buddha's advice to Rahula in MN61 and I have a little more to add here for your further reflection/comments: > Scott: ...- that Raahula is being instructed to develop > satipa.t.thaana. However, I still have a question regarding two > aspects of this instruction. They relate to the temporal aspects of > the instruction. > > 1) The Buddha encourages paccavekkhana in relation to future actions > of the body, speech, and mind. For example: > > "...Raahula, when you wish to do an action with the body, you should > reflect upon that same bodily action thus: 'Would this action that I > wish to do with the body lead to my own affliction, or to the > affliction of others, or to the affliction of both? Is it an > unwholesome bodily action with painful consequences, with painful > results?'..." > > He also encourages paccavekkhana of completed actions of body, speech > and mind. For example: > > "...Also, Raahula, after you have done an action with the body, you > should reflect upon that same bodily action thus: 'Did this action > that I did with the body lead to my own affliction, or to the > affliction of others, or to the affliction of both? Was it an > unwholesome bodily action with painful consequences, with painful > results?..." > > Scott: What are the objects of these reflections (that is, past action > or future action)? > My guess, to be consistent with the idea that this is an instruction > regarding satipa.t.thaana - the here-and-now - would be that the > kusala or akusala of the moment in relation to the thoughts of actions > performed or to be performed needs to be known. .... S: I would say, reflections can reflect on anything - paramattha dhammas or concepts. It depends on accumulations. Rahula was a bhikkhu too. When there is satipatthana, the object is any reality at all at such times. There may be awareness of thinking, or of seeing or hearing or sound - any reality at all at the present moment only. This reminds me of some comments K.Sujin made recently on the topic Howard was discussing with Nina with regard to the passage he found distasteful in the Atthasalini (introductory discourse) which referred to wisdom through the Abhidhamma. She was stressing that there are only various types and moments of kusala and akusala even now whilst we think of people and stories. We have to use conventional words like Rahula, Buddha and Jetavana, but in the absolute sense there are only absolute realities, 'Abhidhamma'. So the presentation is actually Abhidhamma by way of sutta or by way of Vinaya. The Vinaya has different classes of offences according to different cittas. When there is no akusala, there is no Vinaya, so the Vinaya is for those who have akusala and have the intention to follow the conduct of the monks. She was saying that if we just talk about kusala and akusla without giving any examples from life, we can't see the various accumulations of different bhikkhus, different kings and lay people. Actually, there are only 8 types of lobha-mula-citta, but the variety is so great. So by way of the Suttanta one can actually understand Abhidhamma. If there is enough understanding, even now if we read about Rahula or Bimbisara, there can be enlightenment. But if we just read a sutta without much understanding and think that one day we'll become enlightened, it's impossible. She also stressed that without any understanding we will be lost when reading all 3 parts of the Tipitaka, because there will always be a 'Why, Why, Why?' when reading the Vinaya and whilst reading the Suttanta, it will always be 'full of Self', thinking that the Buddha taught us to do 'that and that and that'. Instead when there is right understanding, there is knowledge that when there is abstention from evil, abstention from harmful speech or deeds, there is no one at all involved. It's just that reality which is conditioned and abstains. It's the same when any suttas are read as 'instruction manuals' - there is always forgetfulness of conditioned dhammas and the development of understanding of such. For example, people read the Satipatthana Sutta as advising reflection on foulness, on breath, on walking, on kusala and akusala etc. Actually, it's about all aspects of daily life and the development of satipatthana at such times. Metta, Sarah ========= #75470 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study sarahprocter... Hi Dieter (Howard, Nina & all), I like your questions and discussions from your Abh. study a lot. I'd like to join in and add a little more to Nina's comments. --- Dieter Möller wrote: > D: what appears real to us is real until proven otherwise, regardless > of its a impermance. The question occurs however whether it is real too > in an ultimate sense, i.e. the last truth. .... S: This relates to the point Scott an I been discussing with Tep too. I don't think we can say that 'what appears real to us is real until proven otherwise'. Whether or not a Tathagata appears, whether or not there is ever any understanding or not, the only realities (paramattha dhammas) are ever cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. It's quite the opposite of our conventional/long-held wisdom. For more on the ultimate sense, see below. ... > Ven . Narada wrote in the Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammata Sangaha): > > 'Consciousness, mental states (with the exception of 8 types of supra > mundane consciousness and their adjuncts), and matter are Mundane > (lokiya), and Nibbana is Supra mundane (lokuttara). The Supra mundane > Nibbana is the only absolutely reality, which is the summum bonum of > Buddhism. ..... <...> S: This is confusing. There are four absolute realities (not just nibbana) as you give below: ... > § 2 ( of the Abhidhammamattha-Sangaha) > > Tattha vutt' abhidhammattha - catudha paramatthato > Cittam cetasikam rupam - Nibbanam' iti sabbatha. > > In an ultimate sense the categories of Abhidhamma, mentioned therein, > are fourfold in all:- > > (1.) consciousness, > (2.) mental states, > (3.) matter, and > (4.) Nibbana. .... S: From the commentary to the Abhidhammatthasangaha (PTS, transl by Wijeratne & Gethin): " 'from the ultimate standpoint' - by way of ultimate exposition, setting aside conventional talk - 'are four' - are classified in four ways, namely : 'consciousness (citta)', the aggregate of consciousness (vi~n~naa.na); 'mentalities', the three aggregates beginning with feeling; 'materiality', the aggregate of materiality differentiated as the elements and dependent [materialities]; 'nibbaana', the unconditioned dhamma which becomes the object of the paths and fruits. This is the grammatical construction. " 'Ultimate' means the ultimate, highest and undistorted sense; or it is the sense that comes within the sphere of knowledge that is highest and ultimate." S: Note: So there is no suggestion that only nibbana is an absolute reality. Btw, I like this definition of nibbana which the commentary gives a little later: "That which is deliverance (nikkhanta) from craving, considered as 'entanglement' (vaana) because it stitches and weaves together existence and non-existence, or that by means of which the fires of greed, etc., are extinguished (nibbaati) is nibbaana." ... > D:As far as I understand, the term nama refers to the mental in > distinguishment to the material (rupa) aspects within the framework of > the 5 respectively 3 khandas. ... S: In addition to the Atthasalini reference and explanation of nibbana as nama which Nina gave, when I've raised the same point as you and Howard, I've also heard it said that nibbana is nama by default, so to speak. All dhammas are namas or rupas and it certainly isn't a rupa. Therefore it is classified as a nama. Thanks for sharing your reflections and these comments with us all. I look forward to more. Metta, Sarah ====== #75471 From: han tun Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Tep, Nina and others, Sarah asked me to write something on Aging. But I did not want to do it. So, instead, I have been presenting the series on the Perfections. But, now Sarah and Tep had started it. Their posts are very good and I really appreciate them. Then, I feel guilty if I do not write. So I will write a few words. If it is not relevant, please just ignore my post. It was enough for Prince Siddhattha, the Bodhisatta, to encounter the four "divine messengers" that were to change his destiny. The first three were the old man, the sick man, and the corpse, which taught him the shocking truths of old age, illness, and death; the fourth was a wandering ascetic, who revealed to him the existence of a path whereby all suffering can be fully transcended. But for me, during my younger years, I have seen the divine messengers numerous times but I failed to address myself to these warnings, and I lived a life in “pamada” like tomorrow would never come. Fortunately for me, just in time, without nobody’s prompting, I changed my life-style and started to study and practice the Buddha’s teachings. That’s why when the aging finally hit me in the face I was not unprepared. I can take it with understanding and equanimity (although my understanding and equanimity are still elementary). Whenever I suffer I remind myself that it is my own doing, my own kamma, my own vipaaka. Please excuse me for using the word “my” for many times in the last sentence; that is because I cannot yet fully absorbed the anatta doctrine. With my general physical condition slowly deteriorating, I look up more and more to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha as refuge. I do breathing meditation, recollection of the Buddha and other meritorious deeds. But I am not doing these out of fear. I do these because I realize that they are the right thing to do. But I am not result oriented, but action oriented. I will do whatever I do with good intention or cetana. The result is beyond my control. The result will come what is due for me. I cannot compare myself with the Buddha. But when I read SN 48.41 Jaraa Sutta I was greatly moved. Once the Venerable Aananda approached the Blessed One. Having approached and paid homage, while massaging the Blessed One’s limbs, he said to him: “It is wonderful, venerable sir! It is amazing, venerable sir! The Blessed One’s complexion is no longer pure and bright, his limbs are all flaccid and wrinkled, his body is stooped, and some alteration is seen in his faculties – in the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the body faculty.” The Buddha admitted: “So it is, Aananda! In youth one is subject to aging; in health one is subject to illness; while alive one is subject to death. The complexion is no longer pure and bright, the limbs are all flaccid and wrinkled, the body is stooped, and some alteration is seen in the faculties - in the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the body faculty.” I remember James’s presentation on Recollection of Death. One of the eight ways of recollecting death is by comparison. “Herein, death should be recollected by comparison in seven ways, that is to say: with those of great fame, with those of great merit, with those of great strength, with those of great supernormal power, with those of great understanding, with Paccekabuddhas, with fully enlightened Buddhas.” [Vism. VIII, 16] It was for Recollection of Death. But I think the same principle can be applied to the Recollection of Aging, because aging and death are very close. So, although I am afraid to compare myself with the Buddha, I ask myself, even if the Buddha was subjected to aging, why shouldn’t I? Respectfully, Han #75472 From: han tun Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:59 am Subject: Perfections Corner (04) hantun1 Dear All, Continuation of the chapter on “Introduction.” The following is taken from “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, and different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ Characteristic, Function, Manifestation and Proximate Cause of the Perfections (continued): 6. Patience has the characteristic of acceptance; its function is to endure the desirable and undesirable; its manifestation is tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they really are is its proximate cause. 7. Truthfulness has the characteristic of non-deceptiveness in speech; its function is to verify in accordance with fact; its manifestation is excellence; honesty is its proximate cause. 8. Determination has the characteristic of determining upon the requisites of enlightenment [1]; its function is to overcome their opposites; its manifestation is unshakeableness in that task; the requisites of enlightenment are its proximate cause. [Note 1: Being resolute as to the requisites of enlightenment, and these are the ten perfections.] 9. Loving-kindness has the characteristic of promoting the welfare (of living beings); its function is to provide for their welfare, or its function is to remove resentment; its manifestation is kindliness; seeing the agreeable side of beings is its proximate cause. 10. Equanimity has the characteristic of promoting the aspect of neutrality [2]; its function is to see things impartially; its manifestation is the subsiding of attraction and repulsion; reflection upon the fact that all beings inherit the results of their own kamma is its proximate cause. [Note 2: Neutrality towards beings.] Apart from these definitions, many other passages in the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct”. Cariyaapi.taka, deal in great detail with the perfections. To what extent such details should be studied depends on the ability of each individual to see their value and to investigate realities. Everybody would like to fulfil all ten perfections, but in order to do so, one should very gradually develop and accumulate them. To be continued. metta, Han #75473 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (65) nichiconn Dear Friends, 12. So.lasanipaato 1. Pu.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 2 txt: Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.4.184-203)- "Vipassino bhagavato, sikhino vessabhussa ca; kakusandhassa munino, ko.naagamanataadino. "Kassapassa ca buddhassa, pabbajitvaana saasane; bhikkhunii siilasampannaa, nipakaa sa.mvutindriyaa. "Bahussutaa dhammadharaa, dhammatthapa.tipucchikaa; uggahetaa ca dhammaana.m, sotaa payirupaasitaa. "Desentii janamajjheha.m, ahosi.m jinasaasane; baahusaccena tenaaha.m, pesalaa abhima~n~nisa.m. "Pacchime ca bhave daani, saavatthiya.m puruttame; anaathapi.n.dino gehe, jaataaha.m kumbhadaasiyaa. Pruitt: As it is said in the Apadaana:* I went forth in the teaching of the Blessed One Vipassi, Sikhii and Vessabhuu, the Sage Kakussandha, the Unique One Ko.naagamana, and Buddha Kassapa, and I was a bhikkhunii who was possessed of virtuous conduct, zealous, having my senses under control. I was of great learning, expert in the Doctrine, one who questioned the meaning of the Doctrine, and I was learned in doctrines, a listener, one who paid homage. I taught the teaching of the Conqueror in the midst of people, and because of my great learning, I though of myself as amiable. And now, in my last existence, I was born to a woman water-pot carrier in the home of Anaathapi.n.dika in the magnificent town of Saavatthi. *Ap 611-612, n*38 (attributed to Pu.n.nikaa). txt: "Gataa udakahaariya.m, sotthiya.m dijamaddasa.m; siita.t.ta.m toyamajjhamhi, ta.m disvaa idamabravi.m. "Udahaarii aha.m siite, sadaa udakamotari.m; ayyaana.m da.n.dabhayabhiitaa, vaacaadosabhaya.t.titaa. "Kassa braahma.na tva.m bhiito, sadaa udakamotari; vedhamaanehi gattehi, siita.m vedayase bhusa.m. "Jaanantii vata ma.m bhoti, pu.n.nike paripucchasi; karonta.m kusala.m kamma.m, rundhanta.m katapaapaka.m. "Yo ca vu.d.dho daharo vaa, paapakamma.m pakubbati; dakaabhisecanaa sopi, paapakammaa pamuccati. When I went to get water, I saw a brahman who was versed in sacred knowledge, and he was in the middle of the water distressed by the cold. Seeing him, I said this: "I am a water carrier. [Even] in the cold weather I have always gone down to the water, terrified by fear of punishment from noble ladeis, harrassed by fear of verbal abuse and displeasure. "What are you afraid of, brahman, when you constantly go down to the water? With trembling limbs you experience very great cold." "Indeed, lady Pu.n.nikaa," [the brahman said,] "knowing me, you ask about doing good action [and thereby] blocking off evil action. "Whoever, whether young or old, does an evil action, even he is released from his evil action by ablution in water." "Uttarantassa akkhaasi.m, dhammatthasa.mhita.m pada.m; ta~nca sutvaa sa sa.mviggo, pabbajitvaarahaa ahu. "Puurentii uunakasata.m, jaataa daasikule yato; tato pu.n.naati naama.m me, bhujissa.m ma.m aka.msu te. "Se.t.thi.m tatonujaanetvaa, pabbaji.m anagaariya.m; na cireneva kaalena, arahattamapaapu.ni.m. "Iddhiisu ca vasii homi, dibbaaya sotadhaatuyaa; cetopariya~naa.nassa, vasii homi mahaamune. "Pubbenivaasa.m jaanaami, dibbacakkhu visodhita.m; sabbaasavaparikkhii.naa, natthi daani punabbhavo. When he came up [from the water], I taught him a verse connected with the meaning of the Doctrine. And hearing that, he was agitated and went forth. He became an Arahat. Since I was born in this slave family, I filled (puurentii) ninety-nine (uunaka-sata.m) [pots]; my name is therefore Pu.n.naa. They made me a free woman. Then I obtained the merchant's permission and went forth to the homeless state. In a very short time, I attained Arahatship. I have mastery of the supernormal powers. I have mastery of the knowledge of penetration of minds, O Great Sage. I know my previous lives; my divine eye has been purified. All my taints are consumed; now there is no renewed existence. "Atthadhammaniruttiisu, pa.tibhaane tatheva ca; ~naa.na.m me vimala.m suddha.m, buddhase.t.thassa vaahasaa. "Bhaavanaaya mahaapa~n~naa, suteneva sutaavinii; maanena niicakulajaa, na hi kamma.m vinassati. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m {, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa,} kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. Through the power of the Best of Buddhas, the spotless, pure knowledge is mine, and knowledge has arisen in me of comprehension of meaning, states, and language. I have great wisdom through mental development, and Iam learned through what I have heard. I was born in a low caste family because of my pride; the [past] action had not been destroyed. My defilements are burnt out, {all [future] births are completely destroyed. Having severed my bonds like an elephant, I live without taints. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight liberations are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges.} I have done the Buddha's teaching. ===tbc, connie. #75474 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 8/24/07 1:16:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > > >Hi Ken H, > > > >>But I would just like to mention the best of all explanations of > >>how the flood was crossed. It was crossed by magga citta. That is, > >>by citta with supramundane right view. > > > >For me, the arahant's magga citta is the *act* of crossing over the > >floods. *How* the act is achieved is by means of developing the > seven > >factors of awakening to completion. > > > > > Hi Swee Boon, > > I think your words "for me" are cause for concern. The meaning of the > Pali texts does not change to suit individual readers. --------------------------------------- Howard: I've seen no reply on this yet, so I'll put my 2 cents in: I took Swee Boon's "for me" to indicate how he understood the sutta. None of us can say what the meaning *is*. (There is no Buddha, Sariputta, or Ananda around to ask.) We can only say what we believe it to be and to suggest reasons for such an understanding. ------------------------------------------ > > ------------------ > >>Don't give up the day job. :-) > > > >LOL! Do you mean you actually keep track of when I post? > ------------------- > > No, I haven't been keeping tabs on you. :-) However, I do remember > something you wrote back in July of last year. You warned against > interpreting the Dhamma in accordance with one's own poetic highs. I > liked that phrase. ------------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! I vaguely recall that particular verbiage to have been aimed at me! ;-) ------------------------------------------- > > But what has changed since then? Why have you decided to ditch the > Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries and follow your own poetic highs? ---------------------------------------- Howard: Is there a specific Abhidhamma comment on that sutta that you have in mind, Ken? Have you quoted a commentary? Or have you not simply given your own perspective? In any case, Ken, even if one knew of this matter being addressed in the Abhidhamma or in a commentary, the decision to abide by that interpretation or not depends on guess who? It depends on YOU. Ultimately it is YOU who decides how to interpret a sutta. For that matter, it is YOU who decides on whether or not to accept the Buddha's teachings at all. You, Swee Boon, and I all do accept them. But it is WE who do the accepting, not the Buddha. The Buddha merely "casts his pearls," to borrow from another tradition. ----------------------------------------------- > > If I could suggest an answer I would say you have finally realised > that, according to the original texts, anatta really does mean no > self. And you don't like that. You prefer the cosy religious > (poetic) view of the Dhamma that says anatta doesn't make much > difference. It says we can believe in anatta and still believe in > something that progresses from its present [unenlightened] state to a > future [enlightened] state. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Wow! You write to Swee Boon "You prefer the cosy religious (poetic) view of the Dhamma that says anatta doesn't make much difference." That is an imputation by you, Ken. It is not to be found in what Swee Boon wrote. In any case, how wonderful that you are on the mountaintop to proclaim how to properly think! I wonder, though, how you ever made it to the top, since for you there is no going, i.e. no dhammas underlying the ascent, or in crossing the flood (to be more relevant), but only the moment that is the end of the traversal. You wouldn't have that confusion, Ken, if you would simply understand that conventional speech is, when not misunderstood, figurative and abbreviational, and not just plain falsehood. I would also suggest that it is good to keep in mind the Canki Sutta (MN 95) in which there is written the following: "But to what extent, Master Gotama, is there the safeguarding of the truth? To what extent does one safeguard the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the safeguarding of the truth." "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth. "If a person likes something... holds an unbroken tradition... has something reasoned through analogy... has something he agrees to, having pondered views, his statement, 'This is what I agree to, having pondered views,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth." ----------------------------------------------------- > > Correct me if I'm wrong. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm trying! ;-)) ----------------------------------------------- > > Ken H > > ====================== With metta, Howard #75475 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:29 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 3, no 1. Satipatthaana. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 3 Satipatthåna The Buddha taught satipatthåna, the development of right understanding of paramattha dhammas. When there is mindfulness, sati, of a reality right understanding of that reality can be developed. Sati is a sobhana cetasika which accompanies each sobhana citta, it is non-forgetful of what is wholesome. There are different levels of sati: there is sati when we perform deeds of generosity, dåna; there is sati of the level of síla, which is non-forgetful to abstain from akusala; there is sati with mental development, which includes the development of samatha, calm, the study of the Dhamma and the development of insight. When samatha is developed, sati is mindful of the meditation subject, and when insight, vipassanå, is developed, sati is mindful of the nåma or rúpa appearing through one of the six doors. The term satipatthåna [1] has three meanings. It can mean the object of which sati is mindful, classified as the four Applications of mindfulness, including all conditioned nåmas and rúpas [2]. It can mean sati cetasika which is mindful of realities. It can also mean the Path the Buddha and his disciples followed towards the realization of the four noble Truths. When we hear the word “mindfulness” we should remember that its meaning in the Buddhist sense is different from what we used to understand by mindfulness or awareness. When we say in conventional language that we are mindful, we mean that we know what we are doing, and such a way of thinking may be accompanied by lobha, attachment. Sati cannot accompany akusala citta. Sati of satipaììhåna is wholesome, and it is mindful of one nåma or rúpa at a time. When there is mindfulness of the characteristic of a reality which appears direct understanding of that reality can gradually develop, until the truth of non-self can be realized. We may have theoretical understanding of cittas which experience objects through the six doorways, but when there are conditions for the arising of sati it can be directly aware of the characteristic of the nåma or rúpa which appears. Theoretical understanding of realities is the foundation for the development of satipatthåna, but if there is no sati one’s knowledge is only superficial; there is no development of paññå which directly penetrates the true nature of realities so that the clinging to the “self” can be eradicated. --------- 1 The Påli term paììhåna means foundation. Satipaììhåna is the foundation of mindfulness. 2 Mindfulness of the body, including all rúpas, mindfulness of feeling, mindfulness of citta and mindfulness of dhammas, including all dhammas which are not classified under body, feeling or citta. Thus, all objects of mindfulness are included in these four Applications of Mindfulness. ******* Nina. #75476 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] re: not hard to accept. nilovg Dear Sarah, I find this very clear, saved it in my file of favorites. If we begin to understand that 'there is no one involved' we do not become disturbed about such texts as met in the commentaries that classify the tipitaka in this or that way to show certain aspects. Like the one I discussed with Howard on the Vinaya. This is the way I feel it, but I do not know about others. Nina. Op 24-aug-2007, om 9:12 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > She also stressed that without any understanding we will be lost when > reading all 3 parts of the Tipitaka, because there will always be a > 'Why, > Why, Why?' when reading the Vinaya and whilst reading the Suttanta, it > will always be 'full of Self', thinking that the Buddha taught us > to do > 'that and that and that'. Instead when there is right > understanding, there > is knowledge that when there is abstention from evil, abstention from > harmful speech or deeds, there is no one at all involved. It's just > that > reality which is conditioned and abstains. > > It's the same when any suttas are read as 'instruction manuals' - > there is > always forgetfulness of conditioned dhammas and the development of > understanding of such. For example, people read the Satipatthana > Sutta as > advising reflection on foulness, on breath, on walking, on kusala and > akusala etc. Actually, it's about all aspects of daily life and the > development of satipatthana at such times. #75477 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) nilovg Dear Han, thank you for your sympathetic post on ageing. All you write is always very good, it is very sincere about your personal life. Hoping for more! Nina. Op 24-aug-2007, om 12:50 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Sarah asked me to write something on Aging. #75478 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:19 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 12, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 12 Nutriment-Condition (Åhåra-Paccaya) There are four kinds of nutriment which are nutriment-condition, åhåra-paccaya. One kind is physical nutriment and three are mental nutriment. They are: physical nutriment contact (phassa cetasika) volition (manosañcetanå which is cetanå cetasika) consciousness (viññåna) In the case of åhåra-paccaya, a conditioning dhamma maintains and supports the growth and development of the conditioned dhammas [1]. As regards physical nutriment, this sustains the rúpas of the body. Nutritive essence (ojå) present in food that has been taken suffuses the body and then new rúpas can be produced. As we have seen, nutrition is one of the four factors which produces rúpas of the body, the other three being kamma, citta and temperature. Nutritive essence is present in all groups of rúpas; it is one of the eight “inseparable rúpas” present in all materiality, no matter it is the body or materiality outside. Nutritive essence arises together with the four Great Elements of solidity, cohesion, temperature and motion, and with visible object, flavour and odour. Nutritive essence present in the groups of rúpas of the body cannot produce new rúpas without the support of nutritive essence which is in food, external nutritive essence. For the new being in the mother’s womb it is necessary that the mother takes food so that nutritive essence present in food can suffuse its body. Then nutritive essence can produce new rúpas and thus it goes on throughout life. The nutritive essence which, because of the support of external nutritive essence, produces new rúpas of the body also supports and maintains the groups of rúpas produced by kamma, citta and temperature. When nutriment has been taken the nutritive essence present in the body can produce new groups of rúpas, and nutritive essence present in such a group can in its turn produce another group of eight “inseparable rúpas” (an octad), and so on, and thus there can be several occurrences of octads. In this way nutriment which has been taken can be sufficient for some time afterwards (Visuddhimagga XX, 37). -------- 1. The Commmentary to the “Discourse on Right Understanding” (Middle Length Sayings I, 9), the Papañcasúdaní, gives an explanation of the word åhåra. The condition fetches (åharati) its own fruit, therefore it is called åhåra. ******** Nina. #75479 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:35 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Ken H, > No, I haven't been keeping tabs on you. :-) However, I do remember > something you wrote back in July of last year. You warned against > interpreting the Dhamma in accordance with one's own poetic highs. > I liked that phrase. > But what has changed since then? Why have you decided to ditch the > Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries and follow your own poetic > highs? Nothing has changed. For me, the suttas uttered by the Buddha and quite a few by Sariputta have always been my primary sources of Dhamma texts. I consider the ancient commentaries and the Abhidhamma as secondary sources. My interpretation of the Ogha-tarana sutta is not something I thought of recently. It goes way back to April of 2004 in a post on Triplegem: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Triplegem/message/4844 Even Htoo (you still remember him?), one whom I consider well-learnt in the Abhidhamma, approves of what I said: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Triplegem/message/4846 He said that the seven factors of awakening arise *near* lokuttara dhamma. I take this to mean that the seven factors must have preceded magga citta since they arise 'near' and not 'during'. > If I could suggest an answer I would say you have finally realised > that, according to the original texts, anatta really does mean no > self. And you don't like that. You prefer the cosy religious > (poetic) view of the Dhamma that says anatta doesn't make much > difference. It says we can believe in anatta and still believe in > something that progresses from its present [unenlightened] state to > a future [enlightened] state. > > Correct me if I'm wrong. You are wrong! How could you even suggest an answer to a hypothetical question that is all an imagination of yours truly? :-) Swee Boon #75480 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study moellerdieter Dear Nina, Sarah , Howard..friends actually first a compliment to you and Sarah: it is admirable how you manage to address these many list messages with meaningful and friendly comments, certainly not always easy...;-) you wrote: ' It depends on your own inclination what to study' D: you are right...and frankly speaking I am not yet sure how to view the Abhidhamma, which in mainstream Buddhism seems to me still something like a stepchild of the Buddha Dhamma. You may know better than I the different 'records' of its history, e.g. it was proclaimed by the Buddha in the heavenly realms for several months and had been be passed- at least for a part - to Ven. Sariputta .. or the claim, that Abhidhamma was the work of scholarly monks added by consens lateron. Nevertheless it is an accepted part of the tipitaka and as such I have asked myself , whether my inclination for the conventional teaching is not too much part of my 'habitual tendencies ' ( Nina, I liked this defintion of sankhara khanda ..is it yours ? ;-) ) Probably it is similar for you studying the Kevatta Sutta in detail.. (?) The exchange of views for the benefit of learning that , what is outside of our tendencies, like the 'samatha type vs the vipassana one' , has been recommended by the Buddha , the difficulty however to see the common ground and different approach. N: I quoted the text of the Abh. Sangaha and co in my other post and you can see whether it is of interest to you or not. It may throw some light on paramattha dhammas and why there are four. D: thanks , I will come back on it .. N: It depends on your interest. Citta, cetasika and rupa are realities of our life at this moment. D: there is no doubt about it .. awareness of (wholesome ) action this very - material- moment. Nina , I do not underestimate the importance of sati.. but within the Noble Path it is one of eight links and the first of seven mentioned to lead to enlightenment. The Dhamma isn't exclusively concerned with Satipatthana . N: Nibbana is far away now and it is more beneficial to have now understanding of citta, cetasika and rupa. D: yes, because it is far away now ( but who knows ? ;-)) , it hasn't anything to do with our reality here and now ...so why the grouping together with nibbana? There are only exceptional references from the Buddha ..and I believe the reason is rather clear: any ideas of nibbana is one too much .. (.. about what we can not talk we shall keep silent ...) Hence I am still looking for the reason those -likely - Noble Ones - had in mind ... with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study Dear Dieter, It depends on your own inclination what to study. I quoted the text of the Abh. Sangaha and co in my other post and you can see whether it is of interest to you or not. It may throw some light on paramattha dhammas and why there are four. It depends on your interest. Citta, cetasika and rupa are realities of our life at this moment. Nibbana is far away now and it is more beneficial to have now understanding of citta, cetasika and rupa. Nina. Op 23-aug-2007, om 20:02 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > Calling nibbana 'nama ', a term used in context within the 5 > khandas , is not possible without obvious contradiction to the > agreed ' nibbana is free from the khandas'...and somehow it seems > to me that interpretations try to look it otherwise > > I am quite happy with the Sutta Pitaka , so I wonder whether I > should leave the study of Abhidhamma for the 'Abhidhammikas '..;-) #75481 From: "nidive" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:26 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Sarah, > > I concede on this too. But I still maintain satipatthana only > > includes rupas of the physical body. > ... > S: What about sound that is heard now or hardness when there is > touching of the key-board? Are they not real? Can there not be > awareness of them? Yes, there can be awareness of them. But awareness of external rupas is not contemplation on the first frame of reference of satipatthana. The only two other places in DN 22 where external rupas can be possibly mentioned are contemplation on the five aggregates and the six internal & external sense bases. But contemplation on these two items are not considered contemplation on external rupas themselves but rather so-called 'mental qualities'. In the case of the six internal & external sense bases, it is the fetter that arises on dependence that is contemplated. In the case of the five aggregates, it is actually the *qualities* of arising & dissolution that is contemplated. The *focus* is not *exclusively* on the external rupas themselves. > It's a good discussion and I quite understand and accept that you > have a different interpretation of the suttas, Swee Boon. Thank you for your understanding and acceptance. Swee Boon #75482 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) nilovg Dear Han, Lodewijk was impressed very much by your post on ageing, and he found the sutta about the Buddha's old age very helpful. He said that he hopes that it can help him. Can you not give some advice? He thinks he is so old, already hearing Dhamma for more than forty years and he feels that he forgets too much. As if it does not sink in. Thank you in advance, Nina. #75483 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contempla m_nease Hi Sarah, Pardon the delay, I haven't had much computer time lately and my computer is not very well-- ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Howard As A Good Friend Of Theravada -- Re: Proper Training as a Contempla *S: This is relevant to Mike's thread. I think that even those who became enlightened during the Buddha's time, even great disciples, didn't know what or when any enlightenment cittas would arise or whether jhana would be the base or not. We have very little (if any) idea about previous accumulations, previous kamma and so on. For example, if there is rebirth in a brahma realm, who knows what accumulations may manifest? We can talk now about our accumulations for particular activities or kinds of food, but this is just in general for now. (Always good to hear from you, Mike, if you have anything further to add or comment). OK, thanks-- mike #75484 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:24 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. m_nease Hi Again Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 11:23 PM Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. In 'Cetasikas', under 'Perception (sa~n~naa), Nina quotes from AN 10s, Ch V1, 6 'Ideas' [Pathamasa~n~naa Sutta] It refers to the development of the following 10 kinds of sa~n~naa, clearly all accompanied by the development of insight because it refers to the 'ending up of the deathless' [amatapariyosaanaa]. The ten are: -asubha sa~n~naa -mara.na sa~n~naa -aahaarepa.tikkuula -sabbeloke anabhiratasa~n~naa -anicca sa~n~naa -anicce dukkha sa~n~naa -dukkhe anatta sa~n~naa -pahaana sa~n~naa -viraaga sa~n~naa -nirodha sa~n~naa Great--thanks again! mike #75485 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another post about mindfulness m_nease Hi Connie, ----- Original Message ----- From: L G SAGE To: dsg Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 5:49 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Another post about mindfulness mike: --was there a point pertinent to our discussion of going forth and the propriety of jhaanabhaavanaa for bhikkhus that I've missed? connie: no, sorry! just rambling. No apology necessary--thanks for rambling my way. mike #75486 From: "m. nease" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:29 pm Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. m_nease Hi Tep, ----- Original Message ----- From: Tep Sastri To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 8:10 PM Subject: Q. [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 1, no 6. It is getting more interesting. > T: I have a one-peso comment : Hearing the Dhamma, but not making > conscientious effort to develop the four foundations of mindfulness, > is not the nutriment for the "anattaa-sa~n~naa and anicca-sa~n~naa > moments" to arise". That may be a reason why "these moments are >still very, very rare". Mike: It could be, I agree--but hearing the Dhamma must come before bhaavanaa, ("making conscientious effort"?) don't you think? I think that the great rarity of unperverted perception (or any other kusala factor), even for those who have heard the Dhamma, is the result of accumulated akusala more than anything else. Of course I could be mistaken--just my one-baht opinion. T: Yes, I think so. It is my understanding that "making conscientious effort" is a supporting condition for bhaavanaa in order to culminate kusala dhammas. ["With a noble disciple who has conviction, it may be expected that he will keep his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities, that he will be steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities." SN 48.50] In my view your opinion is worth more than thousand bahts. Thanks. Thank YOU, Tep, and the same to you. mike #75487 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:54 pm Subject: Re: Asoka, Ch 3, no 1. Satipatthaana. indriyabala Dear Nina (and others), - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Chapter 3 > > Satipatthåna > > The Buddha taught satipatthåna, the development of right > understanding of paramattha dhammas. When there is mindfulness, sati, > of a reality right understanding of that reality can be developed. > Sati is a sobhana cetasika which accompanies each sobhana citta, it > is non-forgetful of what is wholesome. There are different levels of > sati: there is sati when we perform deeds of generosity, dåna; there > is sati of the level of síla, which is non-forgetful to abstain from > akusala; there is sati with mental development, which includes the > development of samatha, calm, the study of the Dhamma and the > development of insight. When samatha is developed, sati is mindful of > the meditation subject, and when insight, vipassanå, is developed, > sati is mindful of the nåma or rúpa appearing through one of the six > doors. > The term satipatthåna [1] has three meanings. It can mean the object > of which sati is mindful, classified as the four Applications of > mindfulness, including all conditioned nåmas and rúpas [2]. It can > mean sati cetasika which is mindful of realities. It can also mean > the Path the Buddha and his disciples followed towards the > realization of the four noble Truths. > When we hear the word "mindfulness" we should remember that its > meaning in the Buddhist sense is different from what we used to > understand by mindfulness or awareness. When we say in conventional > language that we are mindful, we mean that we know what we are doing, > and such a way of thinking may be accompanied by lobha, attachment. > Sati cannot accompany akusala citta. Sati of satipaììhåna is > wholesome, and it is mindful of one nåma or rúpa at a time. When > there is mindfulness of the characteristic of a reality which appears > direct understanding of that reality can gradually develop, until the > truth of non-self can be realized. > We may have theoretical understanding of cittas which experience > objects through the six doorways, but when there are conditions for > the arising of sati it can be directly aware of the characteristic of > the nåma or rúpa which appears. Theoretical understanding of > realities is the foundation for the development of satipatthåna, but > if there is no sati one's knowledge is only superficial; there is no > development of paññå which directly penetrates the true nature of > realities so that the clinging to the "self" can be eradicated. > > --------- > 1 The Påli term paììhåna means foundation. Satipaììhåna is the > foundation of mindfulness. > 2 Mindfulness of the body, including all rúpas, mindfulness of > feeling, mindfulness of citta and mindfulness of dhammas, including > all dhammas which are not classified under body, feeling or citta. > Thus, all objects of mindfulness are included in these four > Applications of Mindfulness. > > ******* > Nina. > > T: Please give some background information about this "Asoka" post. I can only trace back to message #74840 in which you wrote an introduction for "In Asoka's Footsteps Dhamma in India 1999". But I do not see any introduction for the present title, "Asoka, Ch 3, no 1. Satipatthaana". I would like to know who the author of "Asoka" is, and what references s/he uses to write this Ch 3, no 1. Satipatthaana. Thank you. Tep === #75488 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:17 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,182 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 182. Here is a statement of the bare headings starting from the beginning. Of these [three kinds of] formations, firstly the formation of merit, when giving rebirth-linking, produces the whole of its result in two kinds of becoming; likewise in the four kinds of generation beginning with the egg-born, in two of the kinds of destiny, in other words, the divine and the human; in four of the stations of consciousness, [the human, and the planes of the first, second and third jhanas,] described thus, 'Different in body and different in perception ... different in body and same in perception ... same in body and different in perception .... same in body and same in perception ...' (D.iii,253); and in only four of the abodes of beings, because in the abode of non-percipient beings it only forms materiality. Therefore it is a condition in the way already stated for twenty-one kinds of resultant consciousness in these two kinds of becoming, four kinds of generation, two kinds of destiny, four stations of consciousness, and four abodes of beings according as they are produced in rebirth-linking ((41)-(49), (57)-(61)) and the course of an existence ((34)-(41)), as appropriate. *********************** 182. tatrida.m aadito pa.t.thaaya mukhamattapakaasana.m -- imesu hi sa"nkhaaresu yasmaa pu~n~naabhisa"nkhaaro taava dviisu bhavesu pa.tisandhi.m datvaa sabbamattano vipaaka.m janeti. tathaa a.n.dajaadiisu catuusu yoniisu, devamanussasa"nkhaataasu dviisu gatiisu, naanattakaayanaanattasa~n~nii-naanatta-kaayaekattasa~n~nii- ekattakaayanaanattasa~n~nii-ekattakaayaekattasa~n~niisa"nkhaataasu catuusu vi~n~naa.na.t.thitiisu. asa~n~nasattaavaase panesa ruupamattamevaabhisa"nkharotiiti catuusuyeva sattaavaasesu ca pa.tisandhi.m datvaa sabbamattano vipaaka.m janeti. tasmaa esa etesu dviisu bhavesu, catuusu yoniisu, dviisu gatiisu, catuusu vi~n~naa.na.t.thitiisu, catuusu sattaavaasesu ca ekaviisatiyaa vipaakavi~n~naa.naana.m vuttanayeneva paccayo hoti yathaasambhava.m pa.tisandhiya.m pavatte ca. #75489 From: han tun Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) hantun1 Dear Nina, I thank very much Lodewijk for appreciating my post. I am sure the sutta (SN 48.41) will help him. The translation by Thanissaro Bhikkhu is available at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.041.than.html But I prefer Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation. It is on page 1686. I have already copied the whole text translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, and I can send you. Please just let me know. Another passage about Buddha’s aging, which I like, is in DN 16 Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta, translated by MauriceWalshe, on page 245. “Aananda, I am now old, worn out, venerable, one who has traversed life’s path, I have reached the term of life, which is eighty. Just as an old cart is made to go by being held together with straps, so the Tathaagata’s body is kept going by being strapped up. It is only when the Tathaagata withdraws his attention from outward signs (sabba-nimittaanam amanasikaaraa), and by the cessation of certain feelings (ekaccaanam vedanaanam nirodho), enters into the signless concentration of mind (animittam ceto-samaadhim upasampajja viharati), that his body knows comfort.” The Buddha could enter into nirodha-samapatti whenever he liked to have his body know comfort. For me, I cannot even attain the first jhaana, let alone nirodha-samapatti. So I have to strap up my old worn out body with medicines, and careful eating and suitable exercise. > N: Can you not give some advice? He thinks he is so old, already hearing Dhamma for more than forty years and he feels that he forgets too much. As if it does not sink in. H: I don’t know whether it will work with him - for me, I always look at the brighter, more positive aspects of things. For example, I have enlarged prostate (Benign Prostate Hyperplasia), and I think I am lucky because I do not have prostate cancer. I have old coronary infarct in my heart, and I think I am lucky because I do not have fresh attacks and blocking of more coronary arteries. I am also heard at hearing, and I think I am lucky I do not have total loss of hearing. I am also forgetting, and I think I am lucky I do not have advanced Alzheimer’s disease. And so on. In this respect, I like MN 145 Pu.n.novaada Sutta. After giving Ven Pu.n.na a brief advice the Buddha asked him where he was going. He replied he was going to Sunaaparanta. The Buddha said, “The people of Sunaaparanta were fierce and rough. If they abuse and threaten you, what will you think then?” “Venerable sir, if the people of Sunaaparanta abuse and threaten me, then I shall think: ‘These people of Sunaaparata are kind, truly kind, in that they did not give me a blow with the fist.’” “But Pu.n.na, if the people of Sunaaparanta do give you a blow with the fist, what will you think then?” “Venerable sir, if the people of Sunaaparanta do give me a blow with the fist, then I shall think: ‘These people of Sunaaparanta are kind, truly kind, in that they did not give me a blow with a clod.'” ----- and so on. In similar way, I always think of the positive aspects of things. Similarly, Lodewijk can think of positive aspect of things. If he thinks that he is so old and forgetful, he can think thus: “I am lucky I have Nina besides me.” [It is no joke, I am saying seriously. I have met you in Bangkok, I knew immediately that Lodewijk is in the best hands.] After hearing Dhamma for more than forty years, if it does not sink in, I think you gave him too much of ‘no Nina, no Lodewijk’ and too much of ‘realities.’ [This time I am joking. :>)] Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > > Lodewijk was impressed very much by your post on > ageing, and he found > the sutta about the Buddha's old age very helpful. #75490 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:14 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Hi Sarah, - Lately I just thought I was getting closer to understand your teaching. But the message # 75468 puts me back at the square zero again. >T:Now, since 'panna' is a conditioned dhamma that rises >and falls independently of our effort, aren't we >hopeless in trying (with an effort to condition samvara >and panna) to maintain peaceful discussion (kusala) all >the time? .... S: In a way, yes. It is completely hopeless to try with an idea of self to do anything or to change what has been conditioned at this moment already. T: Of course, it is completely hopeless to "do anything or to change" whatever that has already happened/conditioned/arisen, with or without an idea of self. To be successful one abides with sense restraint in every moment, so that akusala does not have a chance to arise. [Please read my elaboration below.] ....... S: If there is annoyance now, trying to change it merely indicates attachment (and possibly wrong view). What is more important is to develop panna regardless of what arises. By understanding and appreciating more what are the realities, what is kusala, what is akusala, what is merely an idea, there will be conditions for sila to gradually be purified. Whilst we cling to an idea of self in charge, this can never happen. T: That sounds good in theory. However, when an annoyance (or any defilements of the mind) arises in a worldling, the panna that is just an intellectual understanding of the Teachings is not effective enough. The only panna that abandons an arisen akusala in that moment is the direct knowing (See MN 47, Note 489) of at least at the Sotapanna stage. I believe direct knowing is the consequence of abiding with wise attention which is the nutriment for developing sati-sampajanna. Sati-sampajanna then supports sense restraint (indriya-samvara) that is necessary for the three right conducts in any moment.[See AN 10.61] .......... > S: !! Because cittas discuss and some cittas need to be developed and > other cittas exposed for what they are! > > T: Cittas don't have eyes, hands, and brain to read, think, and type > on a computer keyboard. .... S: When we talk about eyes, hands, brain and computer, these are concepts, ideas. Actually, there are just a complex process of different cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away. T: In principles, according to the paramattha-dhamma, yes. But that view is the looking at the real world with the internal Dhamma Eye of the ariyans. I believe that the ariyans themselves also see the world through the ayatanas like we do; the only difference is they do not have upadana in the external & internal ayatanas. Tep === #75491 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:26 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nichiconn Hi Swee Boon, Sarah, For what it's worth & more because it's the part I just happen to be copying than to be butting in, on the consideration of external rupas, ch.XX Ppn. talks a lot about how one "comprehends formations by attributing the three characteristics to them through the medium of the Material Septad and the Immaterial Septad." See beginning $46... << Herein, one who comprehends [them] by attributing [the characteristics] in the following seven ways is said to comprehend by attributing through the medium of the Material Septad, that is to say, (1) as taking up and putting down, (2) as disappearance of what grows old in each stage, (3) as arising from nutriment, (4) as arising from temperature, (5) as kamma-born, (6) as consciousness-originated, and (7) as natural materiality. The part ($73) on natural materiality reads: << Having attributed the three characteristics to that arising from nutriment, etc., he again attributes the three characteristics to natural materiality. Natural materiality is a name for external materiality that is bound up with faculties and arises along with the aeon of world expansion, for example, iron, copper, tin, lead, gold, silver, pearl, gem, beryl, conch shell, marble, coral, ruby, opal, soil, stone, rock, grass, tree, creeper, and so on (see Vbh.83). That becomes evident to 74. him by means of an asoka-tree shoot. For that to begin with is pale pink; then in two or three days it becomes dense red; again in two or three days it becomes dull red; next [brown,] the colour of a tender [mango] shoot; next, the colour of a growing shoot; next, the colour of pale leaves; next the colour of dark green leaves. After it has become the colour of dark green leaves, as it follows out the successive stages of such material continuity, it eventually becomes withered foliage, and at the end of the year it breaks loose from its stem and falls off. 75. Discerning that, he attributes the three characteristics to it thus: The materiality occurring when it is pale pink ceases there without reaching the time when it is dense read; the materiality occurring when it is dense red ... dull red; the materiality occurring when it is dull red ... the colour of a tender [mango] shoot; the colour of a growing shoot; the materiality occurring when it is the colour of a growing shoot ... the colour of pale green leaves; the materiality occurrring when it is the colour of pale green leaves ... the colour of dark green leaves; the time when it is withered foliage; the materiality occurring when it is withered foliage ceases there without [626] reaching the time when it breaks loose from its stem and falls off: therefor it is impermanent, painful, not self. He comprehends all natural materiality in this way. This is how, firstly, he comprehends formations by attributing the three characteristics to them by means of the Material Septad. >> peace, connie. #75492 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) moellerdieter Dear Han, I like what you said about 'Aging' , thank you for sharing! with Metta Dieter #75493 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:43 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,182 nichiconn Path of Purity, p.668-9 This, herein, is the substance of the explanation beginning from the first. Because among these activities the preparation for merit, after giving rebirth, produces all its results in two worlds; and likewise in the four matrices such as the egg; the two courses namely, of devas and men; the four durations of consciousness, namely, different in body and in perception, different in body same in perception, same in body different in perception, same in body same in perception; and in the four sentient abodes, since in the perceptionless sentient abode the preparation is only of the material form, therefore it is as mentioned above, a cause, at rebirth or in procedure as the case may be, of twenty-one classes of resultant consciousness in these two worlds, four matrices, two courses, four durations of consciousness and four sentient abodes. [558] #75494 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:57 pm Subject: Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) indriyabala Hi Han, - Good job ! Sadhu! x 3. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sarah, Tep, Nina and others, > > Sarah asked me to write something on Aging. But I did > not want to do it. So, instead, I have been presenting > the series on the Perfections. But, now Sarah and Tep > had started it. Their posts are very good and I really > appreciate them. Then, I feel guilty if I do not > write. So I will write a few words. If it is not > relevant, please just ignore my post. > T: A beauty of your carefully written posts has been that they give adequate background information for the reader to understand the main point. As such they are very useful. It is an excellent point you made on how forgetful Buddhists are, concerning the importance of the "four divine messengers" that was taught in any school in Thailand and Burma when we were young. >Han: But for me, during my younger years, I have seen the divine messengers numerous times but I failed to address myself to these warnings, and I lived a life in "pamada" like tomorrow would never come. T: Indeed, me too. If only I had a wise attention on the divine messengers whom I saw over and over in the past decades, how better off I would have become today! T: Thank you very much for the following sutta quote, that can be used for developing jara-anussati too. "So it is, Aananda! In youth one is subject to aging; in health one is subject to illness; while alive one is subject to death. The complexion is no longer pure and bright, the limbs are all flaccid and wrinkled, the body is stooped, and some alteration is seen in the faculties - in the eye faculty, the ear faculty, the nose faculty, the tongue faculty, the body faculty." Tep === #75495 From: han tun Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) hantun1 Dear Dieter, I thank you very much for your appreciation. with Metta, Han --- Dieter Möller wrote: > Dear Han, > I like what you said about 'Aging' , thank you for > sharing! > with Metta Dieter #75496 From: han tun Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) hantun1 Dear Tep, Thank you very much for your kind words. I have all the books containing suttas (but no commentaries) but it is you who make me read those suttas, and I am grateful to you for that. Respectfully, Han --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Hi Han, - > Good job ! Sadhu! x 3. > T: A beauty of your carefully written posts has been > that they give > adequate background information for the reader to > understand the main > point. As such they are very useful. > > T: Thank you very much for the following sutta > quote, that can be > used for developing jara-anussati too. #75497 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:08 pm Subject: Re: Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) nichiconn Dear Han, Tep, >Han: But for me, during my younger years, I have seen the divine messengers numerous times but I failed to address myself to these warnings, and I lived a life in "pamada" like tomorrow would never come. T: Indeed, me too. If only I had a wise attention on the divine messengers whom I saw over and over in the past decades, how better off I would have become today! Connie: Indeed? Could we have lived our lives any differently than conditions played out? But I just read the following story and remembered you - because here is another somewhat older one who had 'known' certain things for the longest time and not been able to break through: Path of Purifiction, Ch.XX: 111. Here is one story as an illustration. The Elder Dhammadinna, it seems, who lived at Tala"ngara - one of the great ones with cankers destroyed who possessed the categories of discrimination - was the instructor of a large community of bhikkhus. One day, as he was sitting in his own daytime quarters, he wondered 'Has our teacher, the Elder Mahaa-Naaga who lives at Uccavaalika, [635] brought his work of asceticism to its conclusion, or not?'. He saw that he was still an ordinary man, and he knew that if he did not go to him, he would die an ordinary man. He rose up into the air with supernormal power and alighted near the Elder, who was sitting in his daytime quarters. He paid homage to him, doing his duty, and sat down at one side. To the question 'Why have you come unexpectedly, friend Dhammadinna?' he replied 'I have come to ask a question, venerable sir'. He was told 'Ask, friend. If we know, we shall say'. He asked a thousand questions. 112. The Elder replied without hesitation to each question. To the remark 'Your knowledge is very keen, venerable sir; when was this state attained by you?' he replied 'Sixty years ago, friend'. - 'Do you practise concentration, venerable sir?' - 'That is not difficult, firend.' - 'Then make an elephant, venerable sir.' The Elder made an elephant all white. 'Now, venerable sir, make that elephant come straight at you with his ears outstretched, his tail extended, putting his trunk in his mouth and making a horrible trumpeting.' The Elder did so. Seeing the frightful aspect of the rapidly approaching elephant, he sprang up and made to run away. The the Elder with cankers destroyed put out his hand, and catching him by the hem of his robe, he said 'Venerable sir, is there any timidity in one whose cankers are destroyed?' peace, connie ps. He does attain Arahantship in the next paragraph, but the text says it seems he was of hating temperament so I thought I'd leave well enough alone! #75498 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:32 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness kenhowardau Hi Howard (and Swee Boon), ----------- KH to SB: > > I think your words "for me" are cause for concern. The meaning of the Pali texts does not change to suit individual readers. > > H: > I've seen no reply on this yet, so I'll put my 2 cents in: I took Swee Boon's "for me" to indicate how he understood the sutta. None of us can say what the meaning *is*. (There is no Buddha, Sariputta, or Ananda around to ask.) We can only say what we believe it to be and to suggest reasons for such an understanding. ------------ I think it is possible to determine the Dhamma that is recorded in the original Theravada texts. It is also possible to invent a new Dhamma by selectively accepting and rejecting various parts of the texts, and adding one's own commentaries. There would be no limit to the number of Dhammas that could be invented in that way. But what would be the point? ------------------- H: >Is there a specific Abhidhamma comment on that sutta that you have in mind, Ken? Have you quoted a commentary? Or have you not simply given your own perspective? ------------------- The Ogha-tarana Sutta is often discussed at DSG. Kom summarised the commentary to it back in March 2003 (message 20794). It seems there are several ways in which "striving" and "standing still" can be said to occur. So there were many ways in which the flood was not crossed. (Even mundane kusala results in being 'swept away.') But, ultimately, there was only one way in which the flood was crossed, and that was by magga-citta (which is led by right understanding of paramattha dhammas). ------------------------ H: > In any case, Ken, even if one knew of this matter being addressed in the Abhidhamma or in a commentary, the decision to abide by that interpretation or not depends on guess who? It depends on YOU. Ultimately it is YOU who decides how to interpret a sutta. -------------------------- Decisions to abide or not abide by anything are just thinking, aren't they? It is easy to say "I accept this: I reject that," but ultimately, there is no control. Panna will arise when the conditions for its arising are present. ----------------------------------- H: > For that matter, it is YOU who decides on whether or not to accept the Buddha's teachings at all. You, Swee Boon, and I all do accept them. But it is WE who do the accepting, not the Buddha. The Buddha merely "casts his pearls," to borrow from another tradition. ----------------------------------- We must see conditionality everywhere in all things. The idea of 'acceptance or non-acceptance' is a creation of conditioned dhammas, over which there is no control. ------------------------- <. . .> H: > Wow! You write to Swee Boon "You prefer the cosy religious (poetic) view of the Dhamma that says anatta doesn't make much difference." That is an imputation by you, Ken. It is not to be found in what Swee Boon wrote. ------------------------- Why does Swee Boon - or any of the other formal meditators at DSG - reject the ancient-commentary explanations of suttas? It is because they (the commentaries and the Abhidhamma) teach that there are only dhammas. Some people don't like to hear that. When they hear it, they long for the old Buddhism they knew before they ever heard about conditioned namas and rupas. ------------------------------ H: > In any case, how wonderful that you are on the mountaintop to proclaim how to properly think! ------------------------------ I know what you mean. I get a similar feeling when I read DSG posts that say, "I don't buy that!" - referring to some part of the original Theravada texts. It seems a rather audacious thing to say, don't you think? ---------------------------------------- H: > I wonder, though, how you ever made it to the top, since for you there is no going, i.e. no dhammas underlying the ascent, or in crossing the flood (to be more relevant), but only the moment that is the end of the traversal. ----------------------------------------- That's not how I would have put it, but I think I know what you mean. According to my understanding of the texts there are only the presently arisen paramattha dhammas. It is too late to make those dhammas arise differently from the way they have. Also, there is no point in wanting some future dhammas to take their place. That is because there is no self that crosses over from the present moment to the future. So what would be the point in wanting some other state to arise? The present dhammas are all there is, and we worldlings don't even know (with certainty) what those dhammas are. At best, we have a partial understanding that has been acquired from past Dhamma study. --------------------- H: > You wouldn't have that confusion, Ken, --------------------- I don't see it as confusion. ----------------------------- H: > if you would simply understand that conventional speech is, when not misunderstood, figurative and abbreviational, and not just plain falsehood. ----------------------------- When conventional speech describes 'intention' as if it were a factor of the Path, then it as wrong as conventional speech can be. Or, to put it another way, the doctrine of anatta does not mean 'business as usual.' It means that Path progress can only occur by conditions. Any conventional effort to make progress happen is wrong effort. ---------------------------------------- H: > I would also suggest that it is good to keep in mind the Canki Sutta (MN 95) in which there is written the following: <. . .> "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. <. . .> ----------------------------------------- Yes, that is good advice, although I don't think it was meant in the same way that other teachers would mean the same advice. Take, for example, the case of a person who has wrong view. If he were to say of it "This is my conviction," would he be praised by the Buddha? I don't think he would. Ken H #75499 From: han tun Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) hantun1 Dear Connie (and Tep), > > >Han: But for me, during my younger years, I have seen the divine messengers numerous times but I failed to address myself to these warnings, and I lived a life in "pamada" like tomorrow would never come. > > T: Indeed, me too. If only I had a wise attention on the divine messengers whom I saw over and over in the past decades, how better off I would have become today! > Connie: Indeed? Could we have lived our lives any differently than conditions played out? But I just read the following story and remembered you - because here is another somewhat older one who had 'known' certain things for the longest time and not been able to break through: Han: No, I would not have lived differently than my past kamma has conditioned. I had lived heedlessly during my younger years as a probable result of my past akusala kamma of my previous life. When I changed my life-style suddenly, without anyone’s prompting, and started studying and practicing the Buddha’s teachings, it must also be as a result of my past kusala kamma of my previous life. I thank you for remembering me. But, I do not see the connection between the story of Elder Mahaa-Naaga and my story. The Elder Mahaa-Naaga thought he was an Arahant. [Vism. XX, 110]. Elder Dhammadinna came to him and showed him that he was still an ordinary man and not an Arahant. [Vism. XX, 111] So, what is the connection? I never claimed I was an Arahant. I did not claim that I had 'known' certain things for the longest time and not been able to break through. What certain things that I had ‘known’? For the longest time? I started my study and practice only when I was 70 in 1996. What is that I was unable to break through? With metta, Han --- L G SAGE wrote: > Dear Han, Tep, > Connie: Indeed? Could we have lived our lives any > differently than conditions played out? But I just > read the following story and remembered you - > because here is another somewhat older one who had > 'known' certain things for the longest time and not > been able to break through: #75500 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:09 pm Subject: Re: Making comparisons .... nichiconn Dear Han, It is no big deal. Divine messengers, texts, whatever, we all see things and know things all our lives but unless and until the understanding is leading in a right way, we go wrong. Nothing more. Nothing personal, really. But is not our life our practise? peace, connie What certain things that I had 'known'? For the longest time? I started my study and practice only when I was 70 in 1996. What is that I was unable to break through? #75501 From: han tun Date: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Making comparisons .... hantun1 Dear Connie, > Connie: But is not our life our practise? Han: Not necessarily. Dhammapada Verse 113 yo ca vassasatam jiive apassam udayabbayam ekaaham jiivitam seyyo passato udayabbayam Better than a hundred years in the life of a person who does not perceive the arising and the dissolving of the five aggregates, is a day in the life of one who perceives the arising and the dissolving of the five aggregates. One can live his whole life without any practice. With metta, Han #75502 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:25 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness jonoabb Hi Swee Boon My apologies to you (and others) for the delay in replying. The past 10 days or so have been somewhat hectic on the work front. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: ... > In the Ogha-tarana Sutta, the Buddha said he crossed over the floods > without pushing forward and without staying in place. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn01/sn01.001.than.html > > "But how, dear sir, did you cross over the flood without pushing > forward, without staying in place?" > > "When I pushed forward, I was whirled about. When I stayed in place, > I sank. And so I crossed over the flood without pushing forward, > without staying in place." > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > I believe that my interpretation solves the mystery surrounding this > sutta. > > As the Buddha said, it is the wrong time to develop the factors of > investigation, persistence and rapture when the mind is restless. The > result is a 'whirling about' of the mind (hard to calm down). > > He also said it is the wrong time to develop the factors of serenity, > concentration and equanimity when the mind is sluggish. The result is > a 'sinking' of the mind (hard to raise up). > > Therefore, the Buddha crossed over the floods by developing the > factors of awakening at the appropriate times and bringing them to a > complete balance. As for the factor of mindfulness, he says it is > useful all the times. I'm not sure I see the parallel between the Ogha-tarana Sutta SN 1:1 and the 7 factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga). The point of the the Ogha-tarana Sutta is what was *not* done (neither pushing nor standing still), while the factors of enlightenment are all about factors that need to be developed. What specifically would you say is being referred to by the terms "pushing" and "standing still"? > The same line of reasoning is seen in Kimsuka. > > The gatekeeper keeps watch 24 hours a day. (Mindfulness is useful all > the times.) The accurate report stands for nibbana. (Crossing over > the floods.) What's left are the rest of the 6 factors of awakening. > > The only logical conclusion is that these 6 factors of awakening are > subsumed under insight & samatha (pair of messengers). > > How they are subsumed under insight & samatha, I believe I have > answered above as well as before. But I don't think we can read this simile as asserting that samatha/jhana and vipassana are equally a prerequisite for enlightenment for one and all. > As for the 3 paragraphs of DN 22 (repeated for each frame of > reference), I believe that they talk about the development of the 7 > factors of awakening with reference to each frame of reference. > > How else can it be? The Buddha is so consistent with his Dhamma that > there is always an element of predictability if one is familiarised > with the suttas instead of the commentaries. I don't think it's safe to ignore the commentaries just because we may be inclined to disagree with the reading they give. As far as I can see they are consistent with the suttas and consistent among themselves. > I suspect this is how bhikkhus of ancient times such as Ananda were > capable of memorising the discourses without lapse. Highly developed faculties! Jon #75503 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:41 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) jonoabb Hi Mike Thanks for coming in here. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m_nease" wrote: > > Hi Jon (and Suan, Nina and all), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > ... > > > However, I'd like to ask about the development of samatha for it's own > > sake, not necessarily with any thought about the imminent attainment of > > jhana. What do the texts have to say about samatha per se, as a > form of > > kusala to be developed, and particularly as to whether an ordinary lay > > life would be any impediment to that? > > Really glad you asked this--I've thought for a long time that samatha > bhaavanaa is a fine thing for laypeople to do and that it should be > kusala kamma if properly understood. In terms of moment to moment dhammas, samatha bhavana is citta accompanied by panna of a level that knows the difference between kusala and akusala. The main condition for the arising of such moments must be, as with all kusala, an already accumulated tendency for the same. There's no reason I know of why someone who is a layperson in their current life should have any less an accumulated tendency for samatha than someone who is a monk. I've never been sure that this > is consistent with the texts, though. As far as I know the texts do not say that samatha bhavana per se (as opposed to samatha of the level of jhana) is more for monks than for layfollowers. > > PS I appreciated your comments on the Gha.tikaara Sutta (MN 81). > > So did I--here's a link to a translation: > > http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima2/081-ghatikara-e1.html Thanks! Jon #75504 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 2, no 3. sarahprocter... Hi Azita, Been thinking of you and the time I visited your at the airport here in Hong Kong when you had a long delay. Jon's turn this time - a delay of over 24hrs with all the usual confusion, uncertainty and exhaustion at the end of it all.... I ended up taking out a few basics and joining him for much of the delay. Actually, it was quite fun and we managed to fit in a quick visit to a quiet beach on the airport island which we hadn't been to for years. So his posts just sent to the list were just before he finally left for NZ and Fiji after checking in, going through immigration and all the rest a second time! I've arrived home feeling like I've just returned from a long trip. I found myself about to ask someone how the weather had been in my absence from Hong Kong when I remembered I hadn't been away! --- gazita2002 wrote: > Azita: today I met my xpartner who I havent seen for 10 years > following a very painful separation. He & his wife came to visit Zoe > and her new baby. Was feeling alittle anxious at meeting them, but > it turned out fine. I thought a lot of how the present is > conditioned by past seeing, sanna, feelings etc. > I also remembered at one of the discussions, we talked about > forgiveness being dana, in the sense it allows the others to feel no > fear of bad reactions etc. I like to think that the dhamma has > helped me thro this rather uncomfortable time, in fact I like to > think that the dhamma helps 'me' in everyday life :-) .... S: I remember you talking about the painful separation and the tears as you looked out at the ocean reflecting on the sutta about all the tears over all our losses, on and on and on. Immeasurable. Forgiveness, metta, kindness and generosity are so light and the opposites are so very heavy, aren't they? I know how much the dhamma has helped you and helps us all in everyday life.... .... > We should not > > force ourselves not to think of concepts, because thinking arises > > because of conditions, <...> > azita; this is a very wonderful paragragh.. daily life.. thats all > there is really isnt it? ... S: Even arahants think of concepts of course....A very wrong practice if we try not to think of them! Whatever is conditioned again - painful, pleasurable or whatever... .... S: Like Nina, it's good to read your reflections and comments on passages. Drop in when you have time and internet access! Metta, Sarah ======== #75505 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:11 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (65) nichiconn dear friends, 12. So.lasanipaato 1. Pu.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 3 txt: arahatta.m pana patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa udaanavasena- 236. "udahaarii aha.m siite, sadaa udakamotari.m; ayyaana.m da.n.dabhayabhiitaa, vaacaadosabhaya.t.titaa. 237. "Kassa braahma.na tva.m bhiito, sadaa udakamotari; vedhamaanehi gattehi, siita.m vedayase bhusa.m. 238. "Jaanantii vata ma.m bhoti, pu.n.nike paripucchasi; karonta.m kusala.m kamma.m, rundhanta.m katapaapaka.m. 239. "Yo ca vu.d.dho daharo vaa, paapakamma.m pakubbati; dakaabhisecanaa sopi, paapakammaa pamuccati. RD: Reflecting on her attainment, she uttered these verses in exultation: Drawer of water, I down to the stream, *333 Even in winter, went in fear of blows, Harassed by fear of blame from mistresses. (236) 'What, brahmin, fearest thou that ever thus Thou goest down into the river? Why With shiv'ring limbs dost suffer bitter cold?' (237) 'Well know'st thou, damsel Pu.n.nikaa, why ask One who by righteous karma thus annuls Effect of evil karma? Who in youth, (238) Or age ill deeds hath wrought, by baptism Of water from that karma is released.' (239) *333 The Ac(h)iravatii (now Rapti), a tributary (with the Gogra) of the Ganges, flowing past Saavatthii. PRUITT: And after attaining Arahatship and looking over her attainment, she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: [Pu.n.naa:] 236. I am a water carrier. [Even] in the cold weather I have always gone down to the water, terrified by fear of punishment from noble ladies, harrassed by fear of verbal abuse and displeasure. 237. What are you afraid of, brahman, when you constantly go down to the water? With trembling limbs, you experience very great cold. [The brahman:] 238. Indeed, lady Pu.n.nikaa, knowing me, you ask about doing good action [and thereby] blocking off eveil action. 239. Whoever, whether young or old, does an evil action, even he is released from his evil action by ablution in water. .. to continue, connie #75506 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:56 am Subject: Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) indriyabala Dear Connie, Han - C: Indeed? Could we have lived our lives any differently than conditions played out? T: I think we can, if we are wise enough to condition our present actions to produce mostly profitable results. C: I just read the following story and remembered you - because here is another somewhat older one who had 'known' certain things for the longest time and not been able to break through .. T: Thanks. I appreciate your wholesome intention to help us out of the deep, dark hole of ignorance. But the Elder Dhammadinna (who was an arahant) asked his old teacher "a thousand questions" first to guage the depth of the old man's knowledge, before giving him the final test of arahantship. So, when are you going to give Han and me a thousand questions? Tep === #75507 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Swee Boon) - In a message dated 8/25/07 1:37:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@... writes: > Hi Howard (and Swee Boon), > > ----------- > KH to SB: >>I think your words "for me" are cause for concern. The > meaning of the Pali texts does not change to suit individual readers. > >> > > > H: >I've seen no reply on this yet, so I'll put my 2 cents in: I > took Swee Boon's "for me" to indicate how he understood the sutta. > None of us can say what the meaning *is*. (There is no Buddha, > Sariputta, or Ananda around to ask.) We can only say what we believe > it to be and to suggest reasons for such an understanding. > ------------ > > I think it is possible to determine the Dhamma that is recorded in > the original Theravada texts. --------------------------------------- Howard: Yeah, I'm sure Swee Boon likes to think so & me, too! LOL! However, some suttas are clear, and some are not so clear. The Flood Sutta is not so clear. If it were all perfectly clear, there'd be no commentaries, ancient or modern, and no Buddhist discussion lists, and no Dhamma teachers. Oh, the Abhidhamma isn't perfectly clear either - not by a long shot. -------------------------------------- > > It is also possible to invent a new Dhamma by selectively accepting > and rejecting various parts of the texts, and adding one's own > commentaries. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, it is. It is arrogant to think that such applies to "other people" and not oneself. Why do you pay so little attention to the Buddha's teaching on safeguarding the truth? You give perfunctory attention to that at the end of this post, but you do not at all take it to heart. -------------------------------------- There would be no limit to the number of Dhammas that > > could be invented in that way. But what would be the point? > > ------------------- > H: >Is there a specific Abhidhamma comment on that sutta that you > have in mind, Ken? Have you quoted a commentary? Or have you not > simply given your own perspective? > ------------------- > > The Ogha-tarana Sutta is often discussed at DSG. Kom summarised the > commentary to it back in March 2003 (message 20794). It seems there > are several ways in which "striving" and "standing still" can be said > to occur. So there were many ways in which the flood was not crossed. > (Even mundane kusala results in being 'swept away.') ------------------------------------------- Howard: I take it, then, that your answer to my question is "No, no specific Abhidhamma comment on that sutta that you have in mind, and no commentary referenced with regard to that sutta"? I take it that this is, indeed your perspective, which you somehow think you know to be the "right" interpretation? --------------------------------------------- > > But, ultimately, there was only one way in which the flood was > crossed, and that was by magga-citta (which is led by right > understanding of paramattha dhammas). > > ------------------------ > H: >In any case, Ken, even if one knew of this matter being > addressed in the Abhidhamma or in a commentary, the decision to abide > by that interpretation or not depends on guess who? It depends on > YOU. Ultimately it is YOU who decides how to interpret a sutta. > -------------------------- > > Decisions to abide or not abide by anything are just thinking, aren't > they? It is easy to say "I accept this: I reject that," but > ultimately, there is no control. Panna will arise when the conditions > for its arising are present. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Are you saying, then, that you are beyond thinking, and that you see what is what with well developed wisdom? It sure sounds that way. Are you beyond opinions, Ken? Have you reached a stage of knowing? ---------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------------- > H: >For that matter, it is YOU who decides on whether or not to > accept the Buddha's teachings at all. You, Swee Boon, and I all do > accept them. But it is WE who do the accepting, not the Buddha. The > Buddha merely "casts his pearls," to borrow from another tradition. > ----------------------------------- > > We must see conditionality everywhere in all things. The idea > of 'acceptance or non-acceptance' is a creation of conditioned > dhammas, over which there is no control. --------------------------------------------- Howard: You are simply ignoring the issue I raise. ------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------- > <. . .> > H: >Wow! You write to Swee Boon "You prefer the cosy religious > (poetic) view of the Dhamma that says anatta doesn't make much > difference." That is an imputation by you, Ken. It is not to be found > in what Swee Boon wrote. > ------------------------- > > Why does Swee Boon - or any of the other formal meditators at DSG > ----------------------------------------- Howard: LOLOL! Your mind is caught, Ken. You are like a dog-with-a-bone, a tasty bone that you obsess about and which you cannot let go of. ----------------------------------------- - > > reject the ancient-commentary explanations of suttas? It is because > they (the commentaries and the Abhidhamma) teach that there are only > dhammas. Some people don't like to hear that. When they hear it, they > long for the old Buddhism they knew before they ever heard about > conditioned namas and rupas. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I believe indeed that there is nothing whatsoever that any of us experiences other than namas and rupas - khandhic phenomena, paramattha dhammas. I do not, however, reify them as you do nor do I believe that anything occurs in zero time. Moreover, if the simple statement that there is nothing but paramattha dhammas were the entirety of what there were to say, then the ancient commentators you give so much lip service to needn't have spent so much of their precious time on commentary. And, Ken, I find it sad to see you writing about what "some people" long for. Your conceit is astounding. If one is ever going to make any progress on the Buddha's path, at least an initial iota of humility is needed. I don't have "the answers," Ken, and neither do you! Don't be so sure you do. Such certainty in unrealized beings doesn't become us! ----------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------ > H: >In any case, how wonderful that you are on the mountaintop to > proclaim how to properly think! > ------------------------------ > > I know what you mean. I get a similar feeling when I read DSG posts > that say, "I don't buy that!" - referring to some part of the > original Theravada texts. It seems a rather audacious thing to say, > don't you think? -------------------------------------------- Howard: That I don't buy it? That I don't simply accept somone's interpretation as fact? No, I don't think it is audacious. What I think is audacious is the assertion of one's opinion as indisputable fact. And who says "I don't buy that" with regard to the Buddha's teaching, per se? I don't recall anyone saying that? In any case, if you are saying that one must never question anything that you assert is sancrosanct, well, I sure don't buy THAT! And the Buddha for sure didn't want anyone to accept even his teachings without question and on the basis of authority. He was way better than that! Ken, you are coming across to me as a wannabe Dhamma dictator, a modern-day Buddhist Torquemada. ------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------- > H: >I wonder, though, how you ever made it to the top, > since for you there is no going, i.e. no dhammas underlying the > ascent, or in crossing the flood (to be more relevant), but only the > moment that is the end of the traversal. > ----------------------------------------- > > That's not how I would have put it, but I think I know what you mean. > According to my understanding of the texts there are only the > presently arisen paramattha dhammas. It is too late to make those > dhammas arise differently from the way they have. Also, there is no > point in wanting some future dhammas to take their place. That is > because there is no self that crosses over from the present moment to > the future. So what would be the point in wanting some other state to > arise? --------------------------------------------- Howard: This is off the topic. The question of what was involved in the sutta is that of whether it was the (multi-dhamma) process of "journeying towards awakening" that was involved, a process of crossing the flood, or a moment or moments of magga and phala. That is the issue. It is a matter of what the sutta pertains to, not twhat the core of the dhamma is. The fact of there in reality being nothing at any time other than paramattha dhammas is not the issue at all. I consider that a given. (My opinion! LOL!) ------------------------------------------- > > The present dhammas are all there is, and we worldlings don't even > know (with certainty) what those dhammas are. At best, we have a > partial understanding that has been acquired from past Dhamma study. > > --------------------- > H: >You wouldn't have that confusion, Ken, > --------------------- > > I don't see it as confusion. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know. --------------------------------------------- > > ----------------------------- > H: >if you would simply understand that conventional speech is, when > not misunderstood, figurative and abbreviational, and not just plain > falsehood. > ----------------------------- > > When conventional speech describes 'intention' as if it were a factor > of the Path, then it as wrong as conventional speech can be. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: LOL! First of all, you are again off-topic. Secondly, as regards this off-topic issue, you seem to be forgetting right resolve. In MN 117, after discussing right view, the Buddha took up right resolve as follows: "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right resolve as right resolve. And what is wrong resolve? Being resolved on sensuality, on ill will, on harmfulness. This is wrong resolve. "And what is right resolve? Right resolve, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right resolve with fermentations, siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right resolve, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "And what is the right resolve that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness. This is the right resolve that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is the right resolve that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, resolve, mental absorption, mental fixity, focused awareness, & verbal fabrications in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right resolve that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. "One tries to abandon wrong resolve & to enter into right resolve: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong resolve & to enter & remain in right resolve: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right resolve." ------------------------------------------------ Or, to > > put it another way, the doctrine of anatta does not mean 'business as > usual.' It means that Path progress can only occur by conditions. Any > conventional effort to make progress happen is wrong effort. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Then your writing this post is wrong effort, and everything you do in your life is wrong effort. I think you are just being silly, Ken. You think you are on the mountaintop, Ken, not acting on the basis of conventional effort. That is delusional. ---------------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------- > H: >I would also suggest that it is good to keep in mind the Canki > Sutta (MN 95) in which there is written the following: > <. . .> > "If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' > safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite > conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To > this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. > <. . .> > ----------------------------------------- > > Yes, that is good advice, although I don't think it was meant in the > same way that other teachers would mean the same advice. Take, for > example, the case of a person who has wrong view. If he were to say > of it "This is my conviction," would he be praised by the Buddha? I > don't think he would. --------------------------------------------- Howard: The incorrectness of his view, something that you and I have no sure knowledge of, would not be praised by the Buddha. The recognition of it as only conviction and not as indisputable truth, however, would be loudly praised by him! ------------------------------------------ > > Ken H > > ====================== With metta, Howard #75508 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:09 am Subject: Control is Popular scottduncan2 Dear All, From the Indriyabhavanaa Sutta, MN 152 (Bh. ~Naa.namoli/Bh. Bodhi tr.): "Now, Aananda, how is the supreme development of the faculties in the Noble One's Discipline? Here, Aananda, when a bhikkhu sees a form with the eye, there arises in him what is agreeable, there arises in him what is disagreeable, there arises in him what is both agreeable and disagreeable. He understands thus, 'There has arisen in me what is agreeable, there has arisen in me what is disagreeable, there has arisen in me what is both agreeable and disagreeable. But that is conditioned, gross, dependently arisen; this is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, equanimity. The agreeable that arose in him, the disagreeable that arose in him, and the both agreeable and disagreeable that arose cease in him and equanimity is established. Just as a man with good sight, having opened his eyes might shut them or having shut his eyes might open them, so too concerning anything at all, the agreeable that arose, the disagreeable that arose, and the both agreeable and disagreeable that arose cease just as quickly, just as rapidly, just as easily, and equanimity is established. This is called the in Noble One's Discipline the supreme development of the faculties regarding forms cognisable by the eye." Scott: This goes on to repeat the above in relation to sound with the ear, smell with the nose, flavour with the tongue, touching tangibles with the body, and cognising mind-objects with the mind. A clear description of higher-level satipa.t.thaana, and a clear demonstration of the uncontrolled (by a 'self') arising and ceasing of dhammas. It was one of the Notes to this sutta that struck me (Note 1352, pp.1365-1366): "The expression 'the development of the faculties' (indriyabhaavanaa) properly signifies the development of the mind in responding to the objects experienced through the sense faculties. The more rudimentary aspect of this practice, the restraint of the sense faculties (indriya-sa.mvara), involves controlling the mind in such a way that one does not grasp at the 'signs and features' of things, their distinctive attractive and repulsive attributes. The development of the faculties carries this process of control through to the point where, by an act of will, one can immediately set up insight even in the course of sense perception. At the highest level one acquires the ability to radically transform the subjective significance of perceptual objects themselves, making them appear in a mode that is the very opposite of the way they are normally apprehended." Scott: It is little wonder that no control gets such a hard time when such heavy-weights throw opinions of this nature into the mix. The above is replete with the notion that a person can do these things at will. To be ironic (for literary purposes, mind you), and since I'll have a few spare moments this afternoon, I think that I'll just, 'by an act of will', perfunctorily and 'immediately set up insight' and 'radically transform the subjective significance' of a few perceptual objects. See you all on the other side of the river. Sincerely, Scott. #75509 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:25 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, So very sorry to have delayed the response to this excellent quote by Thanissara Bhikkhu, which, as you note below, best represents his view: T: "I don't think your two quotes fairly represent Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu's main viewpoint on not-self or no-self. I would recommend his following note in MN 22." Th. Bh. : "Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and then to recommend dropping them. For example, in his standard series of questions building on the logic of the inconstancy and stress of the aggregates, he does not say that because the aggregates are inconstant and stressful there is no self. He simply asks, When they are inconstant and stressful, is it proper to assume that they are "me, my self, what I am"? Now, because the sense of self is a product of "I-making," this question seeks to do nothing more than to induce disenchantment and dispassion for that process of I-making, so as to put a stop to it. Once that is accomplished, the teaching has fulfilled its purpose in putting an end to suffering and stress. That's the safety of the further shore. As the Buddha says in this discourse, "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress." As he also says here, when views of self are finally dropped, one is free from agitation; and as MN 140 points out, when one is truly unagitated one is unbound. The raft has reached the shore, and one can leave it there � free to go where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced". Scott: Two questions, Tep: 1) Do you consider there to be a difference implicit in the use of 'not-self' as opposed to 'no-self'? 2) In the concluding sentence above, it is clear that this view is about something, perhaps a Notself, that is free to go where it likes after unbinding. Can you please suggest to me what this particular entity might be, perhaps suggesting textual support for same? Sincerely, Scott. #75510 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:32 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Jon, > What specifically would you say is being referred to by the > terms "pushing" and "standing still"? "Pushing forward" refers to developing the factors of investigation, persistence & rapture when the mind is restless. This is the wrong time to develop these factors (hard to calm down the mind by developing these factors). Instead, one should develop the factors of serenity, concentration & equanimity. "Staying in place" refers to developing the factors of serenity, concentration & equanimity when the mind is sluggish. This is the wrong time to develop these factors (hard to raise up the mind by developing these factors). Instead, one should develop the factors of investigation, persistence & rapture. Therefore, the Buddha crossed over the floods by not developing the factors of awakening at the wrong times but by developing them at the right times. > But I don't think we can read this simile as asserting that > samatha/jhana and vipassana are equally a prerequisite for > enlightenment for one and all. I believe otherwise. > I don't think it's safe to ignore the commentaries just because we > may be inclined to disagree with the reading they give. As far as > I can see they are consistent with the suttas and consistent among > themselves. The commentaries were not spoken by the Buddha. Swee Boon #75511 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:49 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Apologies: 'Thanissara Bhikkhu' is, of course, Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Sincerely, Scott. #75512 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Sarah, > S: Firstly, the characteristic is given as exactly the same in the > texts. Secondly, I am quite sure no distinction will ever be found. > If there was no distinction in the quality for the great arahants, > there is not going to be for us. For the purpose of the development of satipatthana, does it then not matter whether what one contemplates on is the actual paramattha dhamma itself or the 'nimitta' of the actual paramattha dhamma (the unclassifiable object)? > Those with highly developed wisdom can know whether it is awareness > of sound in the sense-door or immediately following mind-door > process, but the sound is just sound. Is awareness of sound in the sense-door required for stream-entry? Or do we just need to be aware of the 'nimitta' of the sound in the mind- door process? Swee Boon #75513 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:43 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge indriyabala Dear Scott (Sarah, Nina, Mike, Swee), - I am pleased to be given a chance to continue with our unfinished discussion. Scott: So very sorry to have delayed the response to this excellent quote by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, which, as you note below, best represents his view: ... [Ven. Thanissaro's comment from his translation of MN 22] Scott: Two questions, Tep: 1) Do you consider there to be a difference implicit in the use of 'not-self' as opposed to 'no-self'? 2) In the concluding sentence above, it is clear that this view is about something, perhaps a Notself, that is free to go where it likes after unbinding. Can you please suggest to me what this particular entity might be, perhaps suggesting textual support for same? .......... T: I must declare at this point that whenever I explain, my explanation is mostly based on the words in the suttas, not my own fabrications. The only thing I claim to have is a limited ability to assemble the well-spoken words of the Buddha and the arahants into a reasonable answer sometimes, not all the time. Having said that, let me answer your above two questions as follows. 1) T: I cannot speak for Th.Bh., but I can only guess what he might intend to say. It seems that by "no self", he means no ego identity, where 'ego identity' is one meaning out of several meanings of 'atta'. There are other kinds of self as given in DN 9 (Potthapada Sutta) that are real, however. Therefore in that case, "no self" does not make sense. On the other hand, it seems that by "not self" he means not to be taken as "me, my self, what I am". Therefore, no-self and not-self are different. 2) T: Let's look closely at his remark : "As he also says here, when views of self are finally dropped, one is free from agitation; and as MN 140 points out, when one is truly unagitated one is unbound. The raft has reached the shore, and one can leave it there -- free to go where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced". To me "one is truly unagitated" refers to an arahant or the cognizance (citta) that is unbound. The phrase "free to go where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced" seems to overly explain that the unbound citta is free. The words "go where one likes" are misleading. I do not know of any sutta support for that remark. Tep === #75514 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study moellerdieter Hi Sarah ( Nina, Howard, & all) you wrote: 'I like your questions and discussions from your Abh. study a lot. I'd like to join in and add a little more to Nina's comments.' delighted to hear that ;-) .. very wellcome ! S: (D: what appears real to us is real until proven otherwise, regardless > of its a impermance. The question occurs however whether it is real too > in an ultimate sense, i.e. the last truth.) .... S: This relates to the point Scott an I been discussing with Tep too. I don't think we can say that 'what appears real to us is real until proven otherwise'. Whether or not a Tathagata appears, whether or not there is ever any understanding or not, the only realities (paramattha dhammas) are ever cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. It's quite the opposite of our conventional/long-held wisdom. ' D: I don't dispute at all, Sarah , that whatever reality appears to us, will presented by citta, cetasikas ,and rupas respectively by the 5 (3) khandas.. ( nibbana - the last/ultimate truth is without khandas, so its conclusion of Paramattha Dhammas appears contradictory) . As far as we not fully enlightenéd, there is attachment , identification with a self. And the detachment does not work by the head only , in theory , but must be accompanied by the heart , by true insight , for which the process of Path practise stands for. It is not the opposite, when you see the ground , undisturbed by the 5 hindrances.. S: Note: So there is no suggestion that only nibbana is an absolute reality. D: taking aside Ven. Narada's notes , in respect to samsara nibbana is absolute , isn't it? S: Btw, I like this definition of nibbana which the commentary gives a little later:"That which is deliverance (nikkhanta) from craving, considered as 'entanglement' (vaana) because it stitches and weaves together existence and non-existence, or that by means of which the fires of greed, etc., are extinguished (nibbaati) is nibbaana." D: yes.. I think in line with other texts.. S: : In addition to the Atthasalini reference and explanation of nibbana as nama which Nina gave, when I've raised the same point as you and Howard, I've also heard it said that nibbana is nama by default, so to speak. All dhammas are namas or rupas and it certainly isn't a rupa. Therefore it is classified as a nama. D: you were very right to question this connection, as our examination showed as well the contradiction . All dhammas are namas and rupas .. our 5 khanda experience /consciousness /citta conditioned by avijja -sankhara, which does not include the unconditioned , nibbana . Nina agreed on ' no khandas in nibbana ', so it seems to me that there is a 'stretching ' of the term nama ('nama by default ') , in order to explain the grouping of 4 categories (Paramattha Dhamma) , where indeed nama is valid in respect to the teaching only within the framework of khanda. I would not care if that would not lead to confusion and misinterpretation... S: Thanks for sharing your reflections and these comments with us all. I look forward to more. D: thank you too for your feedback and looking forward .. with Metta Dieter #75515 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:22 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi All, > 1) T: I cannot speak for Th.Bh., but I can only guess what he might > intend to say. It seems that by "no self", he means no ego > identity, where 'ego identity' is one meaning out of several > meanings of 'atta'. There are other kinds of self as given in DN 9 > (Potthapada Sutta) that are real, however. Therefore in that case, > "no self" does not make sense. > On the other hand, it seems that by "not self" he means not to be > taken as "me, my self, what I am". Therefore, no-self and not-self > are different. I draw your attention to a passage in DN 9: ------------------------------------------------------------------ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.09.0.than.html "Well then, lord, if — having other views, other practices, other satisfactions, other aims, other teachers — it's hard for me to know whether perception is a person's self or if perception is one thing and self another, then is it the case that the cosmos is eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless?" "Potthapada, I haven't expounded that the cosmos is eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless." "Then is it the case that the cosmos is not eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless?" "Potthapada, I haven't expounded that the cosmos is not eternal, that only this is true and anything otherwise is worthless." ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here, "cosmos is eternal" is the same as saying the self exists and "cosmos is not eternal" is the same as saying the self does not exist (no self). This point is evidently seen in the Parileyyaka Sutta SN 22.81: ------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.081.than.html "Or he doesn't assume form to be the self... but he may have a view such as this: 'This self is the same as the cosmos. This I will be after death, constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change.' This eternalist view is a fabrication. ------------------------------------------------------------------- If anything, the Buddha only taught 'not-self' and not 'no self'. The difference is enormous, one pertaining to the Path and one irrelevant to the Path. Swee Boon #75516 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study moellerdieter Dear Nina (and all interested ), you wrote: 'The problem with English terms is that there are many different interpretations of them. Ultimate or absolute is not an ideal translation. ' yes, there is a language -translation problem ..Pali terms often not fitting to words of our contemporary speech. We only can overcome that when we have a common understanding of the meaning and what it is supposed to describe. For nibbana , any word is one word too much .. seen from the apparent reality of the 3 Paramattha Dhammas /Khandas I would not object ultimate or absolute ... how about transcendent ..? N: Nibbaana is also a dhamma, but it is lokuttara dhamma, and asankhata dhamma, unconditioned dhamma. D: the term dhamma ..understood to include all things whether mental or material , can not include nibbana .. ( all dhammas are impermanent , aren't they? ) We need to trace the canonical sources, finally the sutta/vinaya pitaka acc. to the 4 Great References , where it is said otherwise N: You raise many points, but perhaps you may be interested in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and Co as translated by Wijeratne and Gethin, Summary of the topics of Abhidhamma, PTS 2002 D: yes, thanks for the hint.. though I am afraid to be limited on texts available on-line.. But before I raise question in respect to your quotation, we should have a consens that the (translated) Abhidhammattha Sangaha is a commentary of the Abhidhamma . In questions of doubt we are requested to look for the original , aren't we? with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: Nina van Gorkom To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:02 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study Dear Dieter, The problem with English terms is that there are many different interpretations of them. Ultimate or absolute is not an ideal translation. Ven. Narada made his own notes, it is not the text. Nibbaana is also a dhamma, but it is lokuttara dhamma, and asankhata dhamma, unconditioned dhamma. You raise many points, but perhaps you may be interested in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha and Co as translated by Wijeratne and Gethin, Summary of the topics of Abhidhamma, PTS 2002. I quote from this book : Pali text: Sabbathaa means in all. Now the ancient co., the abhidhammattha vibhaavivii: < Thus having first finished honouring the triple Gem and so on for the reasons referred to, now, in order to indicate in brief the topics of Abhidhamma which the work sets out to summarize, he utters the words beginning [The topics---] spoken of therein (tattha vuttaa). Therein- in the Abhidhamma-the topics of abhidhamma spoken of in full, as wholesome and so on, and as aggregates and so on, from the ultimate sttandpoint- by way of ultimate exposition, setting aside conventional talk- are four- are classified in four ways, namely: consciousness (citta), the aggregate of consciousness (vi~n~naa.na); mentalities, the three aggregates beginning with feeling; materiality differentiated as the elements and dependent (materialities) [N: the four great elements and the derived ruupas]; nibbaana, the unconditioned dhamma which becomes the object of the paths and the fruits. This is the grammatical construction. Ultimate means in the ultimate, highest and undistorted sense; or it is the sense that comes within the sphere of knowledge that is highest and ultimate.> N: Thus it is different from the conventional sense: man, woman, etc. You may like to get this book. Nina. Op 22-aug-2007, om 20:09 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > D: citta, cetasika, rupa are real because they are experienced in > the present reality but nibbana can not (yet).... the grouping does > not fit , does it? > Nibbana is not unconditioned dhamma because dhamma /dhammas refer > to all mental, material phenomena/ things rising and ceasing due to > its conditioning. > Nibbana is unconditioned . full stop .......... isn't it? #75517 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 3, no 1. Satipatthaana. nilovg Dear Tep, I wrote this, based on the discussions we had in India, and also on tapes I heard. I gave it the title In Asoka's Footsteps Dhamma in India 1999, since King Asoka made a pilgrimage to the holy places. Nina. Op 24-aug-2007, om 23:54 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Please give some background information about this "Asoka" post. > I can only trace back to message #74840 in which you wrote an > introduction for "In Asoka's Footsteps Dhamma in India 1999". But I do > not see any introduction for the present title, "Asoka, Ch 3, no 1. > Satipatthaana". > > I would like to know who the author of "Asoka" is, and what references > s/he uses to write this Ch 3, no 1. Satipatthaana. #75518 From: "m. nease" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control is Popular m_nease Hi Scott, Thanks, an excellent example of how starkly the quality of BB's translations sometimes differ from that of his comments, by my reading anyway. At least I think it's fair to say (with all due respect to BB) that his comments often show a strong bias in favor of a very modern interpretation of the texts. Since his comments are published almost like commentaries in his books, it's easy to confuse the two. If you'll excuse me now, I think I'll just go drum up a little vipassanaa ~naa.na. Or maybe just some sati-sampaja~n~na, I haven't decided yet. Hope all's well with you. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Duncan To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 7:09 AM Subject: [dsg] Control is Popular Dear All, From the Indriyabhavanaa Sutta, MN 152 (Bh. ~Naa.namoli/Bh. Bodhi tr.): "Now, Aananda, how is the supreme development of the faculties in the Noble One's Discipline? Here, Aananda, when a bhikkhu sees a form with the eye, there arises in him what is agreeable, there arises in him what is disagreeable, there arises in him what is both agreeable and disagreeable. He understands thus, 'There has arisen in me what is agreeable, there has arisen in me what is disagreeable, there has arisen in me what is both agreeable and disagreeable. But that is conditioned, gross, dependently arisen; this is peaceful, this is sublime, that is, equanimity. The agreeable that arose in him, the disagreeable that arose in him, and the both agreeable and disagreeable that arose cease in him and equanimity is established. Just as a man with good sight, having opened his eyes might shut them or having shut his eyes might open them, so too concerning anything at all, the agreeable that arose, the disagreeable that arose, and the both agreeable and disagreeable that arose cease just as quickly, just as rapidly, just as easily, and equanimity is established. This is called the in Noble One's Discipline the supreme development of the faculties regarding forms cognisable by the eye." Scott: This goes on to repeat the above in relation to sound with the ear, smell with the nose, flavour with the tongue, touching tangibles with the body, and cognising mind-objects with the mind. A clear description of higher-level satipa.t.thaana, and a clear demonstration of the uncontrolled (by a 'self') arising and ceasing of dhammas. It was one of the Notes to this sutta that struck me (Note 1352, pp.1365-1366): "The expression 'the development of the faculties' (indriyabhaavanaa) properly signifies the development of the mind in responding to the objects experienced through the sense faculties. The more rudimentary aspect of this practice, the restraint of the sense faculties (indriya-sa.mvara), involves controlling the mind in such a way that one does not grasp at the 'signs and features' of things, their distinctive attractive and repulsive attributes. The development of the faculties carries this process of control through to the point where, by an act of will, one can immediately set up insight even in the course of sense perception. At the highest level one acquires the ability to radically transform the subjective significance of perceptual objects themselves, making them appear in a mode that is the very opposite of the way they are normally apprehended." Scott: It is little wonder that no control gets such a hard time when such heavy-weights throw opinions of this nature into the mix. The above is replete with the notion that a person can do these things at will. To be ironic (for literary purposes, mind you), and since I'll have a few spare moments this afternoon, I think that I'll just, 'by an act of will', perfunctorily and 'immediately set up insight' and 'radically transform the subjective significance' of a few perceptual objects. See you all on the other side of the river. Sincerely, Scott. #75519 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Dieter & Nina) - In a message dated 8/25/07 1:18:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: > S: : In addition to the Atthasalini reference and explanation of nibbana as > nama which Nina gave, when I've raised the same point as you and Howard, > I've also heard it said that nibbana is nama by default, so to speak. All > dhammas are namas or rupas and it certainly isn't a rupa. Therefore it is > classified as a nama. > =================== My opinion: No more nama than rupa. Nibbana doesn't partakeof the allness of the all, and so is no more one aspect than the other. It is unique.The default is that there is no way to categorize it in itself at all. Certainly bodhi, its realization, marks the end of dukkha and of the three poisons, but that is the effect of realizing nibbana - it is not nibbana, itself. I must agree, however, that "that by means of which the fires of greed, etc., are extinguished (nibbaati) is nibbaana" is an excellent instrumental definition. With metta, Howard #75520 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:13 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Asoka, Ch 3, no 1. Satipatthaana. indriyabala Dear Nina, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > I wrote this, based on the discussions we had in India, and also on > tapes I heard. I gave it the title In Asoka's Footsteps Dhamma in > India 1999, since King Asoka made a pilgrimage to the holy places. > Nina. > Op 24-aug-2007, om 23:54 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > Please give some background information about this "Asoka" post. > > I can only trace back to message #74840 in which you wrote an > > introduction for "In Asoka's Footsteps Dhamma in India 1999". But I do > > not see any introduction for the present title, "Asoka, Ch 3, no 1. > > Satipatthaana". > > > > I would like to know who the author of "Asoka" is, and what references > > s/he uses to write this Ch 3, no 1. Satipatthaana. > T: Thank you very much for replying to the inquiry. Tep === #75521 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control is Popular scottduncan2 Dear Mike, Thanks for the reply (all is well): M: "...an excellent example of how starkly the quality of BB's translations sometimes differ from that of his comments, by my reading anyway. At least I think it's fair to say (with all due respect to BB) that his comments often show a strong bias in favor of a very modern interpretation of the texts. Since his comments are published almost like commentaries in his books, it's easy to confuse the two." Scott: Yeah, this is what struck me as well - the difference between the translation and the stated comprehension of things (and also with all due respect to Venerable Bodhi as you say). We see in the translation an apparent attention to translating 'cleanly' or devoid of a discernible bias (unlike Thanissaro Bhikkhu, whose theories and mode of translation are at least harmonised, that is, both biased - with all respect to Venerable Thanissaro). The Paa.li for the portion of the text included is: "Katha~ncaananda, ariyassa vinaye anuttaraa indriyabhaavanaa hoti: idhaananda, bhikkhuno cakkhunaa ruupa.m disvaa uppajjati manaapa.m, uppajjati amanaapa.m, uppajjati manaapaamanaapa.m. So eva.m pajaanaati: 'uppanna.m kho me ida.m manaapa.m uppanna.m amanaapa.m uppanna.m manaapaamanaapa.m. Ta~nca kho sa"nkhataa o.laarika.m pa.ticcasamuppanna.m, eta.m santa.m eta.m pa.niita.m yadida.m upekkhaa'ti. Tassa ta.m uppanna.m manaapa.m uppanna.m amanaapa.m uppanna.m manaapaamanaapa.m nirujjhati, upekkhaa sa.n.thaati. Seyyathaapi aananda, cakkhumaa puriso ummiiletvaa vaa nimiileyya nimiiletvaa vaa ummiileyya. Evameva kho aananda, yassa kassaci eva.m siigha.m eva.m tuva.ta.m eva.m appakasirena uppanna.m manaapa.m uppanna.m amanaapa.m uppanna.m manaapaamanaapa.m nirujjhati, upekkhaa sa.n.thaati. Aya.m vuccataananda, ariyassa vinaye anuttaraa indriyabhaavanaa cakkhuvi~n~neyyesu ruupesu." Scott: Its interesting how, when it comes to things like 'pleasant' (manaapa.m) or 'unpleasant' (amanaapa.m) or 'both pleasant and unpleasant' (manaapaamanaapa.m) the verb 'uppajjati' (arises) is easily seen as impersonal. Of course these qualities arise and cease without being subject to control. But this changes when a 'bhikkhu' is involved who 'understands' (pajaanaati). Suddenly, since we are dealing, after all, with bhaavanaa, which is 'meditation' which is 'practise', which must be 'intentional', this becomes something that the bhikkhu does and suddenly it is a person who understands due to his or her meditative effort. Gone is the impersonality. It is totally forgotten that it is pa~n~naa which 'understands' (pajaanaati) since this is the characteristic of pa~n~naa. Sincerely, Scott. #75522 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Nina) - In a message dated 8/25/07 2:09:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: > D: the term dhamma ..understood to include all things whether mental or > material , > can not include nibbana .. ( all dhammas are impermanent , aren't they? ) ==================== No. All *sankhara* are impermanent. All conditions/formations are impermanent. Whatever arises ceases. Nibbana, however, neither arises nor ceases nor is a condition nor has a condition. What *is* the case is that all dhammas are not self and without self, and that includes the ultimate emptiness, nibbana, which is, as stated in Udana 8.2, "... that realm where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither realm of the infinitude of space, nor realm of the infinitude of consciousness, nor realm of nothingness, nor realm of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor stasis; neither passing away nor arising: without stance, without foundation, without support ..." With metta, Howard #75523 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:53 pm Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness kenhowardau Hi Swee Boon, Thanks for your reply: I'm glad to know we are still talking. :-) -------------- <. . .> KH: > > But what has changed since then? Why have you decided to ditch the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries and follow your own poetic highs? SB: > Nothing has changed. For me, the suttas uttered by the Buddha and quite a few by Sariputta have always been my primary sources of Dhamma texts. I consider the ancient commentaries and the Abhidhamma as secondary sources. -------------- Whether we call them 'secondary' or 'primary' is immaterial. More important is how we regard our own opinions of the Dhamma. Are they secondary or primary? Are they superior to the Abhidhamma and commentaries or inferior? Or should we leave our own opinions out of it altogether? What does the Dhamma say about this? Is bhavana (mental development) the result of auto-instruction? Or is the result of hearing and studying the Buddha's teaching? As I understand it, our own opinions cease to be relevant once we have accepted the Buddha as our teacher. From then on it is a matter of listening and learning. If the source of our information (in our case, the ancient Theravada texts) is faulty then that is our bad luck. As the saying goes: we have made our bed and now we must lie in it. ---------------------------- SB: > My interpretation of the Ogha-tarana sutta is not something I thought of recently. ---------------------------- I don't know a lot about the seven factors of enlightenment, so I don't know if your interpretation of the Ogha-tarana Sutta is consistent with the texts or not. The point I was trying to make was with regard to your words "as I see it," which followed previous comments from you about the Abhidhamma being wrong. Ken H #75524 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:43 pm Subject: Re: Making comparisons .... nichiconn Dear Han, > Connie: But is not our life our practise? Han: Not necessarily. Dhammapada Verse 113 yo ca vassasatam jiive apassam udayabbayam ekaaham jiivitam seyyo passato udayabbayam Better than a hundred years in the life of a person who does not perceive the arising and the dissolving of the five aggregates, is a day in the life of one who perceives the arising and the dissolving of the five aggregates. One can live his whole life without any practice. Connie: I'd take that more as saying there is wrong & right practice rather than no practice and practice. peace. #75525 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:49 pm Subject: Re: Making comparisons .... nichiconn Dear Tep, T: Thanks. I appreciate your wholesome intention to help us out of the deep, dark hole of ignorance. But the Elder Dhammadinna (who was an arahant) asked his old teacher "a thousand questions" first to guage the depth of the old man's knowledge, before giving him the final test of arahantship. So, when are you going to give Han and me a thousand questions? Connie: I didn't take the comparison in that direction but even if I did, I wouldn't take it so far as to say any one here is likely even to be a Stream-enterer (& therefore not even really "Buddhist"), so perhaps my questions will have to wait. peace. #75526 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:21 pm Subject: Re: Making comparisons .... indriyabala Dear Connie, - I also think I went a little too far with respect to the comparison. So please allow me to withdraw the question. >T: So, when are you going to give Han and me > a thousand questions? > > Connie: I didn't take the comparison in that direction but even if I did, I wouldn't take it so far as to say any one here is likely even to be a Stream-enterer (& therefore not even really "Buddhist"), so perhaps my questions will have to wait. > T: I agree with that assessment of the "real" Buddhist only if you mean one who has unshakable saddha in the Triple Gem. ["Now where is the faculty of conviction to be seen? In the four factors of stream-entry...." SN 48.8 ] . Tep ==== #75527 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:25 pm Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nidive Hi Ken H, > Whether we call them 'secondary' or 'primary' is immaterial. > As I understand it, our own opinions cease to be relevant once we > have accepted the Buddha as our teacher. What you said is inconsistent. The commentaries are not spoken by the Buddha. As for the Abhidhamma, it is claimed to have been spoken by the Buddha through Sariputta. But such a claim have to be taken with a pinch of salt. After all, *who* was the one who made such a claim? It remains a mystery to me. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. > I don't know a lot about the seven factors of enlightenment, so I > don't know if your interpretation of the Ogha-tarana Sutta is > consistent with the texts or not. Then you should spend your time pursuing the seven factros of enlightenment by listening and studying the Dhamma as much as possible. The chances of supramundane insight arising would be much higher than if you waste your time writing posts to the forum. Or is it that you just want to prove yourself correct? Could it be that there is too much conceit in you? Swee Boon #75528 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control is Popular indriyabala Hi Scott and Mike - Can I quickly ask a few questions? >Scott: >We see in the translation an apparent attention to translating 'cleanly' >or devoid of a discernible bias (unlike Thanissaro Bhikkhu, whose >theories and mode of translation are at least harmonised, that is, both >biased - with all respect to Venerable Thanissaro). T: Is the following translation by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu also biased? If it is, please suggest how it should be revised such that the lost "impersonality" can be reinstalled, without twisting the original words of the Buddha to accommodate your own bias? Thank you for your kind consideration. MN 70 Kitagiri Sutta : "Bhikkhus, to the disciple with faith in the dispensation of the Teacher, the penetration into the teaching is lawful. Let skin, nerves, and bones remain, let the body dry up with the flesh and blood, that which should be attained by manly strength, manly effort and manly power should be attained. I will not give up the inner effort without attaining it. Bhikkhus, to the disciples with faith in the dispensation of the Teacher yoked to penetration, one of these results could be expected. Either perfection here and now, or with substratum remaining mindfulness of not returning.". .................................. >Scott: > .. the verb 'uppajjati' (arises) is easily seen as impersonal. Of course these qualities arise and cease without being subject to control. > > But this changes when a 'bhikkhu' is involved who 'understands' > (pajaanaati). Suddenly, since we are dealing, after all, with > bhaavanaa, which is 'meditation' which is 'practise', which must be > 'intentional', this becomes something that the bhikkhu does and > suddenly it is a person who understands due to his or her meditative > effort. Gone is the impersonality. > > It is totally forgotten that it is pa~n~naa which 'understands' > (pajaanaati) since this is the characteristic of pa~n~naa. > T: That comment is interesting, if not arrogant. Do you mean Ven. Bhikkhu Bodi doesn't know that "it is pa~n~naa which 'understands' (pajaanaati)", so that's why he has made the mistake in the translation ? Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Mike, > > Thanks for the reply (all is well): > > M: "...an excellent example of how starkly the quality of BB's > translations sometimes differ from that of his comments, by my reading anyway. At least I think it's fair to say (with all due respect to > BB) that his comments often show a strong bias in favor of a very > modern interpretation of the texts. Since his comments are published > almost like commentaries in his books, it's easy to confuse the two." > #75529 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control is Popular .. an error indriyabala Hi all - Please correct my last sentence of the earlier message as follows. Wrong: Do you mean Ven. Bhikkhu Bodi doesn't know that "it is pa~n~naa which 'understands' (pajaanaati)", so that's why he has made the mistake in the translation ? Right: Do you mean Ven. Bhikkhu Bodi doesn't know that "it is pa~n~naa which 'understands' (pajaanaati)", so that's why he has made the mistake in the Note? Thank you. Tep === #75530 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:30 pm Subject: Re: Making comparisons .... nichiconn Dear Tep, Questions, once all the pieces that let them be really well formulated fall into place, kind of answer themselves, don't they? > Connie: I didn't take the comparison in that direction but even if I did, I wouldn't take it so far as to say any one here is likely even to be a Stream-enterer (& therefore not even really "Buddhist"), so perhaps my questions will have to wait. > T: I agree with that assessment of the "real" Buddhist only if you mean one who has unshakable saddha in the Triple Gem. ["Now where is the faculty of conviction to be seen? In the four factors of stream-entry...." SN 48.8 ] . Connie: Sounds good to me. Mmm, and I like this as to what being "a beginner" entails: Path of Purification, ch.XX, 104: << When the several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, methods, and characteristics, have become evident to him thus, then formations appear to him as perpetually renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, and being arisen, they cease'. [633] And they are not only perpetually renewed, but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise (A.iv.137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on water (A.iv,137), like a mustard seed on an awl's point (Nd1.42), like a lightning flash (Nd1.43). And they appear without core, like a conjuring trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like a dream (Sn.807), like the circle of a whirling firebrand ( ), like a goblin city ( ), like froth (Dh.46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), and so on. At this point he has attained tender insight-knowlege called contemplation of rise and fall, which has become established by penetrating the fifty characteristics in this manner: 'Only what is subject to fall arises; and to be arisen necessitates fall'. With the attainment of this he is known as a 'beginner of insight'. >> peace, bookworm. #75531 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:03 pm Subject: Re: Control is Popular buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: It is little wonder that no control gets such a hard time when > such heavy-weights throw opinions of this nature into the mix. The > above is replete with the notion that a person can do these things at > will. James: It is done at will. The Buddha used the comparison of opening one's eyes when they are shut or shutting them when they are open: both actions which are done at will. > > To be ironic (for literary purposes, mind you), and since I'll have a > few spare moments this afternoon, I think that I'll just, 'by an act > of will', perfunctorily and 'immediately set up insight' and > 'radically transform the subjective significance' of a few perceptual > objects. James: Since you don't practice what the Buddha taught, it is a fat chance that you will be able to do this. But let us know how it goes. :-) Metta, James #75532 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) nilovg Dear Han, Thank you very much for your post to Lodewijk. I sent it through to him. I like very much the sutta about Punna and the people of Sunaparanta, we quote this sutta to each other now and then. This reminds me of the Sutta Scott quoted: the indriya bhaavanasutta with notes from B.B. about will and control. We can leave aside the personal note by B.B. about controlling and will and go to the Co which I checked in Thai. I like this very much: when an object is repulsive one can see it as unrepulsive, in the case of beings, by applying metta to him, and in the case of inanimate objects by seeing them as elements. Or one can see them all as impermanent. Nina Op 25-aug-2007, om 0:41 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > In similar way, I always think of the positive aspects > of things. > Similarly, Lodewijk can think of positive aspect of > things. #75533 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study nilovg Dear Dieter (and Howard), thank you for your observations and remarks. Yes, the Abhidhammattha Sangaha is a commentary of the Abhidhamma by Anuruddha. The Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha is by Sumangala, twelfth century, Sri Lanka. We can check whether it is consistent with the Tipitaka or not. It refers to the Books of the Abhidhamma very often. You asked me to look at the Kevada sutta, but I could not yet. I looked at Howard's quote of the Udaana and also at its Co translated by Masefield (II, 1012). Too long to type out now, but very interesting. Just some snippets: These were thoughts of the Bodhisatta Sumedha which prompted him to search the truth. As Howard quotes, <.. that realm where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither realm of the infinitude of space, nor realm of the infinitude of consciousness, nor realm of nothingness, nor realm of neither perception nor non-perception> There is a note to the Co with reference that nibbaana is aruupa (it is not ruupa, or, the term aruupa is also used for naama): That is why the aruupajhaananas are mentioned in the text, but nibbaana is not those states. Nina. Op 25-aug-2007, om 20:06 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > But before I raise question in respect to your quotation, we should > have a consens that > the (translated) Abhidhammattha Sangaha is a commentary of the > Abhidhamma . In questions of doubt we are requested to look for the > original , aren't we? #75534 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study sarahprocter... Hi Dieter,(Howard & all), --- Dieter Möller wrote: > D: I don't dispute at all, Sarah , that whatever reality appears to > us, will presented by citta, cetasikas ,and rupas respectively by the > 5 (3) khandas.. ( nibbana - the last/ultimate truth is without khandas, > so its conclusion of Paramattha Dhammas appears contradictory) . .... S: I think it only seems contradictory if we limit paramattha dhammas to the khandhas. Of course, what appears now are only the khandhas, but nowhere is it stated that nibbana is not a reality that may also be experienced. The paramattha dhammas include ALL realities. .... > As far as we not fully enlightenéd, there is attachment , identification > with a self. ... S: Yes, you're right. However, even when there is 'identification with a self', the thinking, the wrong view, the attachment are realities, but the 'self', the idea, is imaginary, a concept. .... > And the detachment does not work by the head only , in theory , but must > be accompanied by the heart , by true insight , for which the process of > Path practise stands for. .... S: Perhaps you could elaborate on this. What do you mean by 'accompanied by the heart, by true insight...' ? I agree that the development of detachment is not mere theory. ... > It is not the opposite, when you see the ground , undisturbed by the 5 > hindrances.. ... S: Pls elaborate on this too....I'm quite sure of your meaning. ... > S: Note: So there is no suggestion that only nibbana is an absolute > reality. > > D: taking aside Ven. Narada's notes , in respect to samsara nibbana is > absolute , isn't it? .... S: Again, pls be patient with me and explain what you mean by the last phrase. .... > S: : In addition to the Atthasalini reference and explanation of nibbana > as nama which Nina gave, when I've raised the same point as you and > Howard, I've also heard it said that nibbana is nama by default, so to > speak. All dhammas are namas or rupas and it certainly isn't a rupa. > Therefore it is classified as a nama. > > D: you were very right to question this connection, as our examination > showed as well the contradiction . ... S: I don't see it so much as any contradiction, more an exception to one definition of namas. .... > All dhammas are namas and rupas .. our 5 khanda experience > /consciousness /citta conditioned by avijja -sankhara, which does not > include the unconditioned , nibbana . ... S: Howard has given a good response to this. All dhammas include nibbana, the unconditioned dhamma. 5 khandhas AND nibbana. ... > Nina agreed on ' no khandas in nibbana ', so it seems to me that > there is a 'stretching ' of the term nama ('nama by default ') , in > order to explain the grouping of 4 categories (Paramattha Dhamma) , > where indeed nama is valid in respect to the teaching only within the > framework of khanda. .... S: Nowhere do the texts say that paramattha dhammas are limited to the 5 khandhas to exclude nibbana. Sometimes we talk about the paramattha dhammas now as being the 5 khandhas. This is because no nibbana is appearing now for most of us! .... > I would not care if that would not lead to confusion and > misinterpretation... ... S: Good points to raise and to sort out any confusion as best we all can together. > D: thank you too for your feedback and looking forward .. ... S: Likewise! Metta, Sarah p.s I quoted from the comy to the Ab.Sangaha before seeing Nina had done just the same, referring to the same passage on paramattha dhammas:-) ======== #75535 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, You are raising very challenging questions with me. I'll give them my best shot. Clearly you've been following many difficult discussions here very closely. I appreciate that a lot:-) Firstly, on the sense-object which may be known in the sense-door or mind-door process... I said the characteristic of the reality is exactly the same. --- nidive wrote: > For the purpose of the development of satipatthana, does it then not > matter whether what one contemplates on is the actual paramattha > dhamma itself or the 'nimitta' of the actual paramattha dhamma (the > unclassifiable object)? .... S: First of all, I don't think we can exactly equate the nimitta with the unclassifiable(navattabba) object. All conditioned dhammas have a nimitta and in the growth of understanding, before the actual paramattha dhamma appears precisely (when there is insight into the arising and falling away of dhammas), it is the nimitta that appears. The navattabba object which appears, such as to the paccavekkhana cittas (reviewing cittas) after nibbana is realised, or the sense object which appears in the mind-door process immediately following a sense-door process, is a paramattha dhamma, not a nimitta. As to whether it matters whether it is the paramattha dhamma or a nimitta of such which appears now, what matters is that understanding is developing and getting closer and closer to directly knowing the paramattha dhammas. It's like we always discuss how there has to be right and firm theoretical understanding about realities first. We have to know that it is visible object seen before there can ever be direct understanding of the paramattha dhamma of visible object. In between, there is going to be the understanding of the 'shadow' of the paramattha dhamma before the panna is really keen enough to penetrate the rising and falling away of such a dhamma. .... > > Those with highly developed wisdom can know whether it is awareness > > of sound in the sense-door or immediately following mind-door > > process, but the sound is just sound. > > Is awareness of sound in the sense-door required for stream-entry? Or > do we just need to be aware of the 'nimitta' of the sound in the mind- > door process? .... S: There has to be awareness of the paramattha dhammas (i.e more than the nimitta) over and over again through all door-ways before stream-entry. See the passage Connie gave which I just re-quoted which referred to the development of tender-insight (taruna vipassana). After this the insights are into paramattha dhammas because the clear understanding of the rise and fall of dhammas is known. It is firm insight. In a way, I don't think it matters at all whether the awareness of sound is in the sense-door or following mind-door. As I've said, the characteristic is exactly the same and when it is developed insight, we're not talking about the nimitta at such moments. Of course, at other moments there isn't insight. Even an arahat would experience nimittas and concepts. Just my understanding on these points to date, Swee Boon. A pleasure to discuss such deep Abhidhamma with you, sincerely meant. Metta, Sarah ======= #75536 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Making comparisons .... sarahprocter... Hi bookworm Connie, Yes, I don't think that describing ourselves as 'beginners' is being over-modest, do you? A good quote and description of the 'beginner of insight' Metta, Sarah --- L G SAGE wrote: > Connie: Sounds good to me. Mmm, and I like this as to what being "a > beginner" entails: > > Path of Purification, ch.XX, 104: << When the several truths, aspects of > the dependent origination, methods, and characteristics, have become > evident to him thus, then formations appear to him as perpetually > renewed: 'So these states, it seems, being previously unarisen, arise, > and being arisen, they cease'. [633] And they are not only perpetually > renewed, but they are also short-lived like dew-drops at sunrise > (A.iv.137), like a bubble on water (S.iii,141), like a line drawn on > water (A.iv,137), like a mustard seed on an awl's point (Nd1.42), like a > lightning flash (Nd1.43). And they appear without core, like a conjuring > trick (S.iii,141), like a mirage (Dh.46), like a dream (Sn.807), like > the circle of a whirling firebrand ( ), like a goblin city ( ), > like froth (Dh.46), like a plantain trunk (S.iii,142), and so on. > At this point he has attained tender insight-knowlege called > contemplation of rise and fall, which has become established by > penetrating the fifty characteristics in this manner: 'Only what is > subject to fall arises; and to be arisen necessitates fall'. With the > attainment of this he is known as a 'beginner of insight'. >> ============= #75537 From: han tun Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 3:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your reply. I am also grateful to you for pointing out to me the indriya bhaavanasutta quoted by Scott. The more interesting point is when you wrote: “I like this very much: when an object is repulsive one can see it as unrepulsive, in the case of beings, by applying metta to him, and in the case of inanimate objects by seeing them as elements. Or one can see them all as impermanent.” I also like the above statement. It is like looking at the brighter and more positive aspect of things that I wrote. However, in SN 36.5 Datthabba Sutta (translated by Nyanaponika Thera) the Buddha said that, “Pleasant feelings should be known as painful (sukha vedanaa dukkhato datthabbaa), painful feelings should be known as a thorn (dukkha vedanaa sallato datthabbaa), and neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings should be known as impermanent (adukkha-masukha vedanaa aniccato datthabbaa).” So I wonder how I can reconcile “when an object is repulsive one can see it as unrepulsive (MN 152 Co)” with “pleasant feelings should be known as painful (SN 36.5)” Can you kindly help me, please? Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > and will and go to the Co which I checked in Thai. I like this very much: when an object is repulsive one can see it as unrepulsive, in the case of beings, by applying metta to him, and in the case of inanimate objects by seeing them as elements. Or one can see them all as impermanent. #75538 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:05 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, During this journey Khun Sujin stressed time and again the immense difference between theoretical understanding and direct understanding. We may have learnt that citta and cetasika are different. Citta is the leader in knowing an object and cetasikas have each their own characteristic and function. Citta and cetasikas arise together, but they have different characteristics. We may believe that we notice akusala citta with anger, but that is only thinking, and there is still an idea of “my anger”. Theoretical knowledge is not the direct understanding of realities. When paññå has been developed in vipassanå there can be direct understanding of the nature of citta and cetasika, of kusala and akusala, without an idea of self. It takes an endlessly long time, many lives, to develop satipaììhåna, but even if there is a short moment of right understanding of nåma and rúpa we are on the right way. Khun Sujin said that when we begin to develop understanding we should not think too much of the words satipaììhåna or stages of insight, because then we are likely to cling to something for which there are no conditions yet. The objects of sati are ordinary realities of daily life like hearing, sound, hardness or feeling. We believe that we see this or that person, we are forgetful of the characteristic of visible object. What appears through the eyes is a reality, a rúpa, but it falls away very quickly. We recognize people, they seem to be there all the time, they do not seem to fall away. At such a moment we are thinking of concepts, and the concepts hide the paramattha dhammas. It seems that we hear the sound of hammering or the sound of birds because time and again thinking of conventional terms arises. In between thinking sati can arise and realize the characteristic of sound: that which can be heard, which has a degree of loudness. At that short moment there is no notion of people or things in the sound, sati can be directly aware of its characteristic. When sound appears there must also be the nåma which experiences it; if there were no citta how could sound appear? There could not be thinking of birds if there were no hearing of sound. We can learn the difference between the moment of sati and the moment of forgetfulness. We need to listen time and again so that we can understand the difference between these moments. Only in that way can we come to know the characteristic of sati and when we know this sati can be accumulated. I said to Khun Sujin that I become nervous when I hear that we should know the difference between the moment of sati and the moment without sati. When we become nervous it shows that there is clinging to sati and then it cannot be developed. It is of no use to worry about lack of sati or to wonder what we can do so that sati can arise. ******** Nina. #75539 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:16 am Subject: Conditions Ch 12, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, There is nutritive essence with nutriment, but one cannot eat nutritive essence alone. We need also sufficient substance or solidity, so that we do not go hungry. Edible food, after making it into portions [1] can be swallowed; it has the function of nourishing. We cannot live without food, but it is dangerous to cling to it. In order to obtain it, people may commit akusala kamma which is capable of producing akusala vipåka. Someone who is greedy may be reborn as a “peta” (ghost). So long as we cling to food there will be rebirth and this is dukkha. We may recollect the disadvantages of searching for food, the foulness of nutriment and its digestion, with the purpose of having less clinging to food. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (I, 89) that the monk should remember that food is not for intoxication, smartening, embellishment or amusement. It should be taken for the sake of the endurance and continuance of the body, for the ending of discomfort and for the assisting of the life of purity (Visuddhimagga I, 91,92). Just as a sick man uses medicine he should use almsfood, so that he can stop feelings of hunger, and he should avoid immoderate eating. Thus he will be healthy and blameless and live in comfort (Visuddhimagga I, 94). We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (Ch XI, 11, and following), in the section on the “Perception of Repulsiveness in Nutriment”, about the disadvantages of having to search for food. The monk has to go in dirty places while he walks with his almsbowl. He does not always receive food, or he receives unappetizing food. Also when he takes food and swallows it, it is unappetizing, not to speak of the secretion while it is being digested and of its flowing out again. In the Commentary to the “Satipatthåna Sutta” ( I, 10), the “Papañcasúdaní” [2], we read in the section on Mindfulness of the Body, Clear Comprehension in the Partaking of Food and Drink, that there are only elements performing their functions in the process of eating and digesting the food. There is no self, no person who eats. We read: 'It is oscillation (våyodhåtu, the element of wind or motion) that does the taking onward, the moving away from side to side; and it is oscillation that bears, turns around, pulverizes, causes the removal of liquidity, and expels. Extension (pathavídhåtu, the element of earth or solidity) also does bearing up, turning around, pulverizing and the removal of liquidity. Cohesion ( åpodhåtu, the element of water) moistens and preserves wetness. Caloricity ( tejodhåtu, the element of heat) ripens or digests the food that goes in. Space (Åkåsadhåtu) becomes the way for the entering of the food. Consciousness (viññånadhåtu) as a consequence of right kind of action knows in any particular situation [3]. According to reflection of this sort, should clear comprehension of non-delusion [4] be understood here.' --------------- 1.The Påli word kabalinkåro åhåro means “morsel food”, food that can be swallowed. 2. Translated by Ven. Soma in “The Way of Mindfulness”, B.P.S. Kandy, Sri Lanka. 3. According to a subcommentary added to the quoted passage of the “Papañcasúdaní” as rendered in the “Way of Mindfulness”: “Consciousness knows”: perceives, understands, by way of seeking, by way of full experience of swallowing, by way of the digested, the undigested and so forth. ”In any particular situation”: in any function of seeking, swallowing or other similar act. 4. Non-delusion as to the object of mindfulness and right understanding. ******** Nina. #75540 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study moellerdieter HI Howard, you wrote: 'D: the term dhamma ..understood to include all things whether mental or material , can not include nibbana .. ( all dhammas are impermanent , aren't they? ) ==================== No. All *sankhara* are impermanent. All conditions/formations are impermanent. Whatever arises ceases. Nibbana, however, neither arises nor ceases nor is a condition nor has a condition. What *is* the case is that all dhammas are not self and without self, and that includes the ultimate emptiness, nibbana, which is, as stated in Udana 8.2,' but where is that inclusion /all-embracing stated ..?? I don't see it in Udana ... ) ? However your objection is in line with Nyanatiloka (the Word of the Buddha) : 'The word `sankhaaraa' (formations) comprises here all things that are conditioned or `formed' (sankhata-dhamma), i.e. all possible physical and mental constituents of existence. The word `dhamma', however, has a still wider application and is all-embracing, as it comprises also the so-called Unconditioned (`unformed', asankhata), i.e. Nibbaana. For this reason, it would be wrong to say that all dhammas are impermanent and subject to change, for the Nibbaana-dhamma is permanent and free from change. ' MN 38 excerpt : 'Bhikkkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, do you understand this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you do not covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, would you then know this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "Yes, venerable sir." to me it sounds strange that Dhamma to be given up (after crossing) and then to hear about Nibbana Dhamma . Where is the canonical prove ? with Metta Dieter #75541 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Ken H & all), --- upasaka@... wrote: > >KenH: When conventional speech describes 'intention' as if it were a factor > > of the Path, then it as wrong as conventional speech can be. > > > ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: > LOL! First of all, you are again off-topic. Secondly, as regards > this > off-topic issue, you seem to be forgetting right resolve. In MN 117, > after > discussing right view, the Buddha took up right resolve as follows: > > "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the > forerunner? One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right > resolve as right > resolve. And what is wrong resolve? Being resolved on sensuality, on ill > will, on > harmfulness. This is wrong resolve. > "And what is right resolve? Right resolve, I tell you, is of two sorts: > There > is right resolve with fermentations, siding with merit, resulting in the > > acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right resolve, without > fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. ..... S: Just to point out the probably-obvious on this: The intention (cetana cetasika) which we were discussing recently in connection with the two kinds of kamma condition (i.e as referring to a)the co-ordinating function and b)the 'willing' function) is not a path factor or what is included here in MN117 as 'resolve' in the translation above and as 'intention' in B.Bodhi's translation of MN. The text is referring to samma-(and micha-) sankappa, i.e. vitakka cetasika. I think the translations using 'resolve' and 'intention' are very misleading. The usual translation is 'right/wrong (applied)thinking', though even this doesn't adequately indicate its 'touching of the object' aspect because inevitably we'll think of the conventional meaning of thinking. It is said to 'mount the mind on its object' and it arise with almost every citta (but not at moments of seeing, hearing etc). Without it, right understanding and the other path factors couldn't arise. As I said, I'm probably stating the obvious, in which case, just ignore and I'll slip out of the discussion and leave you guys to it again:-) Metta, Sarah ======= #75542 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 4:59 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (65) nichiconn Dear Friends, 12. So.lasanipaato 1. Pu.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa Theriigaathaa - Sisters (65) 12. So.lasanipaato 1. Pu.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 4 txt: 240. "Ko nu te idamakkhaasi, ajaanantassa ajaanako; 'dakaabhisecanaa naama, paapakammaa pamuccati'. 241. "Sagga.m nuuna gamissanti, sabbe ma.n.duukakacchapaa; naagaa ca susumaaraa ca, ye ca~n~ne udake caraa. 242. "Orabbhikaa suukarikaa, macchikaa migabandhakaa; coraa ca vajjhaghaataa ca, ye ca~n~ne paapakammino; dakaabhisecanaa tepi, paapakammaa pamuccare. 243. "Sace imaa nadiyo te, paapa.m pubbe kata.m vahu.m; pu~n~nampi maa vaheyyu.m te, tena tva.m paribaahiro. 244. "Yassa braahma.na tva.m bhiito, sadaa udakamotari; tameva brahme maakaasi, maa te siita.m chavi.m hane. 245. "Kummaggapa.tipanna.m ma.m, ariyamagga.m samaanayi; dakaabhisecanaa bhoti, ima.m saa.ta.m dadaami te. RD: 'Nay now, who, ignorant to the ignorant, Hath told thee this: that water-baptism From evil karma can avail to free? (240) Why then the fishes *334 and the tortoises, The frogs, the watersnakes, the crocodiles And all that haunt the water straight to heaven (241) Will go. Yea, all who evil karma work - Butchers of sheep and swine, hunters of game, Thieves, murderers - so they but splash themselves With water, are from evil karma free! (242) And if these streams could bear away what erst Of evil thou hast wrought, they'd bear away Thy merit too, leaving thee stripped and bare. (243) That, dreading which, thou, brahmin, comest e'er To bathe and shiver here, that, even that Leave thou undone, and save thy skin from frost.' (244) 'Men who in error's ways had gone aside Thou leadest now into the Ariyan Path. Damsel, my bathing raiment give I thee.' (245) *334 Not specified in the text. PRUITT: [Pu.n.naa:] 240. Who indeed told you this, ignorant to the ignorant: "Truly he is released from his evil action by ablution in water"? 241. Now [if this is true], all frogs and turtles will go to heaven, and alligators and crocodiles and the other water dwellers. 242. Sheep butchers, pork butchers, fishermen, animal trappers, thieves and executioners, and other evil doers, even they will be released from their evil action by ablution in water. 243. If these streams carried away the evil you had previously done, they would carry away your merit too. Thereby you would be devoid of both. 244. Do not do the very thing, brahman, for fear of which you have always gone down to the water, Brahman, do not let the cold strike your skin. [The brahman:] 245. Noble lady, you have brought me, entered upon the wrong way, back into the noble path. I give you this water-ablution robe. ===tbc, connie. #75543 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 8/26/07 7:22:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: > > HI Howard, > > you wrote: > > > 'D: the term dhamma ..understood to include all things whether mental or > material , > can not include nibbana .. ( all dhammas are impermanent , aren't they? ) > ==================== > No. All *sankhara* are impermanent. All conditions/formations are > impermanent. Whatever arises ceases. Nibbana, however, neither arises nor > ceases > nor is a condition nor has a condition. What *is* the case is that all > dhammas > are not self and without self, and that includes the ultimate emptiness, > nibbana, which is, as stated in Udana 8.2,' > > but where is that inclusion /all-embracing stated ..?? I don't see it in > Udana ... ) ? -------------------------------------------- Howard: Dieter, in some sutta [I can't recall which - I think it may be in the Samyutta Nikaya] the Buddha is quoted as saying "Sabbe sankhara anicca. Sabbe sankhara dukkha. Sabbe dhamma anatta." Most people take that 'dhamma' to include nibbana, whereas 'sankhara' certainly does not. -------------------------------------------- > > However your objection is in line with Nyanatiloka (the Word of the Buddha) > : > > 'The word `sankhaaraa' (formations) comprises here all things that are > conditioned or `formed' (sankhata-dhamma), i.e. all possible physical and mental > constituents of existence. The word `dhamma', however, has a still wider > application and is all-embracing, as it comprises also the so-called Unconditioned > (`unformed', asankhata), i.e. Nibbaana. For this reason, it would be wrong > to say that all dhammas are impermanent and subject to change, for the > Nibbaana-dhamma is permanent and free from change. ' > > MN 38 excerpt : 'Bhikkkhus, as purified and bright as this view is, if you > covet, cherish, treasure and take pride in it, do you understand this Dhamma > as comparable to a raft, taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing > over] and not for the purpose of grasping?" "No, venerable sir." "Bhikkhus, as > purified and bright as this view is, if you do not covet, cherish, treasure > and take pride in it, would you then know this Dhamma as comparable to a raft, > taught for the purpose of giving up [i.e. crossing over] and not for the > purpose of grasping?" "Yes, venerable sir." > > to me it sounds strange that Dhamma to be given up (after crossing) and > then to hear about Nibbana Dhamma . Where is the canonical prove ? --------------------------------------- Howard: These words 'Dhamma' and 'dhamma' are two different words - just homonyms. Nibbana dhamma is that reality called "nibbana". But the Dhamma to be given up as a raft that has served it's purpose is the Buddha's teaching. Once there is direct knowing, there is no need for doctrine any more than one would carry a raft on his/her shoulders after having crossed the river by means of it. ------------------------------------------- > > with Metta Dieter ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) #75544 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Ken) - In a message dated 8/26/07 7:39:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sar ahprocterabbott@... writes: > Hi Howard (Ken H &all), > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > >>KenH: When conventional speech describes 'intention' as if it were a > factor > >>of the Path, then it as wrong as conventional speech can be. > >> > >----------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > LOL! First of all, you are again off-topic. Secondly, as regards > >this > >off-topic issue, you seem to be forgetting right resolve. In MN 117, > >after > >discussing right view, the Buddha took up right resolve as follows: > > > >"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the > >forerunner? One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right > >resolve as right > >resolve. And what is wrong resolve? Being resolved on sensuality, on ill > >will, on > >harmfulness. This is wrong resolve. > >"And what is right resolve? Right resolve, I tell you, is of two sorts: > >There > >is right resolve with fermentations, siding with merit, resulting in the > > > >acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right resolve, without > >fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. > ..... > S: Just to point out the probably-obvious on this: > > The intention (cetana cetasika) which we were discussing recently in > connection with the two kinds of kamma condition (i.e as referring to > a)the co-ordinating function and b)the 'willing' function) is not a path > factor or what is included here in MN117 as 'resolve' in the translation > above and as 'intention' in B.Bodhi's translation of MN. > > The text is referring to samma-(and micha-) sankappa, i.e. vitakka > cetasika. I think the translations using 'resolve' and 'intention' are > very misleading. The usual translation is 'right/wrong (applied)thinking', > though even this doesn't adequately indicate its 'touching of the object' > aspect because inevitably we'll think of the conventional meaning of > thinking. It is said to 'mount the mind on its object' and it arise with > almost every citta (but not at moments of seeing, hearing etc). > Without it, right understanding and the other path factors couldn't arise. > > As I said, I'm probably stating the obvious, in which case, just ignore > and I'll slip out of the discussion and leave you guys to it again:-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ============================ Yes, 'right thinking' is probably better. There does seem to be an element of intention involved, though. Given that "right thought" is the way to put "samma sankappa," the translation becomes "And what is the right thought that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Thought on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness. This is the right thought that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions." It seems to me that "thought on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness" suggests more than thinking about or contemplating these things. It seems to me to suggest resolution. It seems to me to be thinking about "doing the right thing". With metta, Howard #75545 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:00 am Subject: Re: Making comparisons .... indriyabala Dear Connie, - I appreciate your wisdom. It seems a lot higher than that of an ordinary bookworm. I think the Q&A session like this helps make several ideas in the Path of Purification clearer. Yet there are a lot more of "the pieces" to fall in the wide gaps between the following milestones : 1. Discussion and study of the Teachings ... 2. The several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, methods, and characteristics, become evident ... 3. Tender insight-knowlege called contemplation of rise and fall is established ... 4. Stream entry ... >C: >Questions, once all the pieces that let them be really >well formulated fall into place, kind of answer >themselves, don't they? > T: Yes. A Q&A session like this also helps to fullfil that. Thanks. Tep === #75546 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge sarahprocter... Hi Swee Boon, --- nidive wrote: > > S: What about sound that is heard now or hardness when there is > > touching of the key-board? Are they not real? Can there not be > > awareness of them? > > Yes, there can be awareness of them. But awareness of external rupas > is not contemplation on the first frame of reference of satipatthana. > > The only two other places in DN 22 where external rupas can be > possibly mentioned are contemplation on the five aggregates and the > six internal & external sense bases. .... S: Yes, dhammaanupassanaa includes all objects not included in the first three 'frames' of satipatthana. So, actually, all conditioned dhammas are included and satipatthana is the development of understanding and awareness of whatever is conditioned at this moment. No need to think about whether the hardness or sound is internal or external. When there's awareness, there's no idea of 'my body' vs computer hardness. .... > > But contemplation on these two items are not considered contemplation > on external rupas themselves but rather so-called 'mental qualities'. > In the case of the six internal & external sense bases, it is the > fetter that arises on dependence that is contemplated. .... S: What about the khandhas first of all (which you refer to)? These include all conditioned dhammas. Rupa khandha includes all rupas (past, fututre, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near) and so also for the other khandhas. When it comes to the ayatanas, again contemplation of 'mental qualities' is a mis-leading translation of dhammanupassana. It is also the actual ayatanas that have to be understood as well as the fetters which arise. "Here, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the eye and material forms and the fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms)....." Comy note (all from Soma's transl): "cakkhu'm pajaaanaati = "(He) understands material form (objects) that are visible." He understands material form arising from the four producers of corporeality, namely, karma, consciousness, climate and nutriment [kamma citta utu aahaara], by way of their own distinctive function and salient characteristic....." .... >In the case of > the five aggregates, it is actually the *qualities* of arising & > dissolution that is contemplated. The *focus* is not *exclusively* on > the external rupas themselves. ... "Here, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks; 'Thus is material form; thus is the arising of material form, and thus is the disappearance of material form....." Comy: " iti ruupa'm = "Thus is material form." So far is there material form and no further. In this way the bhikkhu perceives material form according to nature.......For the lengthy explanation on these things one should read the talk on the aggregates in the Path of Purity. "Iti ruupassa samudayo = "Thus is the arising of material form." The arising of material form and the other aggregates should be known according to the fivefold way (mentioned in the Section on the Modes of Deportment) through the arising of ignorance and so forth." As discussed in the other thread and in great detail in the Vism, before there can be any direct understanding of the qualities of arising and dissolution, first the characteristics of the various khandhas have to be understood. ... > Thank you for your understanding and acceptance. ... S: Likewise. It helps discussions if there is some mutural acceptance of different understandings, I think. I look f/w to your further reflections. Metta, Sarah ======== #75547 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control is Popular scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thank you for the opportunity to consider this question: T: "Is the following translation by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu also biased?..." MN 70 Kitagiri Sutta : "Bhikkhus, to the disciple with faith in the dispensation of the Teacher, the penetration into the teaching is lawful. Let skin, nerves, and bones remain, let the body dry up with the flesh and blood, that which should be attained by manly strength, manly effort and manly power should be attained. I will not give up the inner effort without attaining it. Bhikkhus, to the disciples with faith in the dispensation of the Teacher yoked to penetration, one of these results could be expected. Either perfection here and now, or with substratum remaining mindfulness of not returning." Scott: First, I like to compare one translation with another. Bh. ~Naa.namoli/Bh. Bodhi: "...For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, it is proper that he conduct himself thus: 'Willingly, let only my skin, sinews, and bones remain, and let the flesh and blood dry up on my body, but my energy shall not be relaxed so long as I have not attained what can be attained by manly strength, manly energy, and manly persistence. For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, one of two fruits may be expected: either final knowledge here and now or, if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." Scott: There are differences in the two; I look for these phrases: 1) Ven. Thanissaro: "...to the disciple with faith in the dispensation of the Teacher, the penetration into the teaching is lawful..." Ven. Bodhi: "...For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation..." 2) Ven. Thanissaro: "...I will not give up the inner effort without attaining it..." Ven. Bodhi: "...but my energy shall not be relaxed so long as I have not attained..." 3) Ven. Thanissaro: "...to the disciples with faith in the dispensation of the Teacher yoked to penetration..." Ven. Bodhi: "...For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation..." 4) Ven. Thanissaro: "...Either perfection here and now, or with substratum remaining mindfulness of not returning." Ven. Bodhi: "...either final knowledge here and now or, if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." Scott: Then the Paa.li: "...Saddhassa bhikkhave saavakassa satthusaasane pariyogaaya vattato rumhaniya.m satthusaasana.m hoti ojavanta.m. Saddhassa bhikkhave saavakassa satthusaasane pariyogaaya vattato ayamanudhammo hoti: ' kaama.m taco ca nahaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu upasussatu sariire ma.msalohita.m. Ya.m ta.m purisatthaamena purisaviriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m, na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viriyassa satthaana.m bhavissatii'ti. Saddhassa bhikkhave saavakassa satthusaasane pariyogaaya vattato dvinna.m phalaana.m a~n~natara.m phala.m paa.tika"nkha.m: di.t.theva dhamme a~n~naa, sati vaa upaadisese anaagaamitaati..." Scott: Then I try to look at the key words or phrases and try to figure out the meaning. I refer, for the most part, to the PTS PED: 1) 'Fathoming' or 'penetration into the teaching': "Pariyogaahati & - gaaheti [pari+ogaahati] to penetrate, fathom, scrutinise...sq.(pa~n~naaya)..." ("Pa~n~naaya (indecl.) [ger. of pajaanaati...so expld by P. Commentators, whereas modern interpreters have taken it as instr. of pa~n~naa] understanding fully, knowing well, realising, in full recognition, in thorough realisation or understanding.) Scott: Here the reference is to that which pa~n`naa penetrates or fathoms. This would set the tone for understanding the rest of the passage, since it cannot possibly be referring to a person doing anything - pa~n~naa cannot be directed by will. 2) '...inner effort...', '...energy...': "purisaviriyena" "Viriya (nt.)...lit. 'state of a strong man,' i. e. vigour, energy, effort, exertion..." "Purisa...1. man..." Scott: Viriya cetasika is the 'strong man' - lovely phrase, poetic and conventional. In this particular passage, the concern would be whether or not the Buddha is making reference to intentional practise. There is no need to examine the other differences in translation. I have no idea why Ven. Thanissaro chose to use the 'substratum' phrase, except to imagine that it fits with the 'not-self' thing and the idea that something remains to voyage on exploring the wonders of Nibbaana. So there you have it, Tep. The passage refers to the workings of pa~n~naa and viriya. The passage does not refer, ultimately, to intentional practise, but to the functions of two mental factors. T: "...Do you mean Ven. Bhikkhu Bodi doesn't know that "it is pa~n~naa which 'understands' (pajaanaati)", so that's why he has made the mistake in the Note?" Scott: The Note is, as mentioned, fraught with the notion of intentional practise, while the translation seems unembellished. I don't know what Bhikkhu Bodhi understands regarding 'pajaanaati' and its relation to 'pa~n~naa'. I assume he knows more than I do about the finer details found in the Paa.li. The Note, however, clearly shows that he understands bhaavanaa by favouring a view that states that it is governed by the will of a practising person. Sincerely, Scott. #75548 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:57 am Subject: Re: Control is Popular scottduncan2 Dear James: Thanks for the reply: James: "It is done at will. The Buddha used the comparison of opening one's eyes when they are shut or shutting them when they are open: both actions which are done at will." Scott: The phrase in question, again, is: "...Just as a man with good sight, having opened his eyes might shut them or having shut his eyes might open them, so too concerning anything at all, the agreeable that arose, the disagreeable that arose, and the both agreeable and disagreeable that arose cease just as quickly, just as rapidly, just as easily, and equanimity is established..." Scott: In attempting to negotiate a simile, one has to, of course, make use of an abstract, as opposed to a concrete, mode of reasoning. In this case, by remaining at the concrete level, the point has been missed entirely. As shown above, it is the rapidity with which an eye opens or shuts that is being used to demonstrate just how quickly these things arise and cease. Sincerely, Scott. #75549 From: "nidive" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:43 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Sarah, > S: Yes, dhammaanupassanaa includes all objects not included in the > first three 'frames' of satipatthana. So, actually, all conditioned > dhammas are included and satipatthana is the development of > understanding and awareness of whatever is conditioned at this > moment. No need to think about whether the hardness or sound is > internal or external. When there's awareness, there's no idea of > 'my body' vs computer hardness. I find it amazing that you could condense the whole of DN 22 into a single statement: Satipatthana is the development of understanding and awareness of whatever is conditioned at this moment. I don't buy that, Sarah. If satipatthana is so simple, there would be no need for the Buddha to give so much elaborations in DN 22, much less split into four different frames of reference. There would be no need for the commentaries as well. Would something that simple to explain require any commentaries at all? The "this moment" theory also contradicts what you said: > S: What about the khandhas first of all (which you refer to)? These > include all conditioned dhammas. Rupa khandha includes all rupas > (past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, > inferior or superior, far or near) and so also for the other > khandhas. Surely, satipatthana does not only include "this moment". It includes the past & future as well. You could possibly say we could 'insight' past objects by way of unclassifiable objects and that is still contemplation on "this moment", but what about the future objects? Are they not mere concepts at "this moment"? And how could satipatthana as expounded by you take concepts as objects of insight? > When it comes to the ayatanas, again contemplation of 'mental > qualities' is a mis-leading translation of dhammanupassana. I cannot speak for Thanissaro Bhikkhu whether or not he is mis- leading the world. > It is also the actual ayatanas that have to be understood as well > as the fetters which arise. > "Here, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the eye and material forms > and the fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms)..." Yes, the material forms have to be understood. But they are not the focus of the fourth frame of reference. Neither is the eye the focus. It is the fetter - the arising, abandoning & ceasing of which are described following the above paragraph - that is the focus. > "Here, o bhikkhus, a bhikkhu thinks; 'Thus is material form; thus > is the arising of material form, and thus is the disappearance of > material form....." > As discussed in the other thread and in great detail in the Vism, > before there can be any direct understanding of the qualities of > arising and dissolution, first the characteristics of the various > khandhas have to be understood. But how can there be direct understanding of the qualities of arising & dissolution of the future aggregates using your method of satipatthana? Is there a corresponding "back to the future" Abhidhammic principle just like the "unclassifiable object" principle? Swee Boon #75550 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:49 am Subject: Re: Control is Popular indriyabala Dear Scott (Swee, Sarah, Han and Nina), - It is very clear that only Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation wins your approval. Therefore, I am going to use his translation of MN 70 as the basis for our discussion today. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation: "...For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, it is proper that he conduct himself thus: 'Willingly, let only my skin, sinews, and bones remain, and let the flesh and blood dry up on my body, but my energy shall not be relaxed so long as I have not attained what can be attained by manly strength, manly energy, and manly persistence. For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, one of two fruits may be expected: either final knowledge here and now or, if there is a trace of clinging left, non- return." ........... Scott: Here the reference is to that which pa~n`naa penetrates or fathoms. This would set the tone for understanding the rest of the passage, since it cannot possibly be referring to a person doing anything - pa~n~naa cannot be directed by will. T: Your key belief that shapes your interpretation of MN 70, or any sutta on exertion & practice of the Dhamma, is that it "cannot possibly be referring to a person doing anything - pa~n~naa cannot be directed by will". That's understandable as I have read something like this at least a thousand-and-one times at this discussion group. But have you overlooked the following key sentence of the sutta? : 'Willingly, let only my skin, sinews, and bones remain, and let the flesh and blood dry up on my body, but my energy shall not be relaxed so long as I have not attained what can be attained by manly strength, manly energy, and manly persistence.' T: It is very clear that those emphatic words show a strong will power of a practicing Bhikkhu (who has a very strong saddha in the Buddha's Teachings; a devotee to the Holy Life) to exert his energy in such a way that even death cannot stop him from striving hard here and now, until he finally achieves his goal !! ................... Scott: So there you have it, Tep. The passage refers to the workings of pa~n~naa and viriya. The passage does not refer, ultimately, to intentional practise, but to the functions of two mental factors .. T: I think I understand why you want to believe what you want to believe. That's fine with me! Thank you very much, Scott, for the diligent effort you made to answer my questions. Tep === #75551 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:47 am Subject: Childers' Pali Dictionary on 'Sankappo' upasaka_howard Hi, all - That Pali dictionary gives the following for 'sankappo': Thought, imagination; determination, resolve, wish. As examples he gives the following: Samsannasankappamano (adj.), In whose mind right thoughts or aspirations are weakened. Sankappa paripunna, My wishes are fulfilled. Padutthama-nusankappo (adj.), The wishes of my heart are corrupt. The second of these three examples seems to be a case in which taking 'sankappo' to mean "thought" would make no sense. So, it seems that there is some basis for glossing 'sankappo' as 'resolve' in certain cases. The idea is, at least, not entirely idiosyncratic. With metta, Howard #75552 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 6:51 am Subject: Brief Afterthought Re: Childers' Pali Dictionary on 'Sankappo' upasaka_howard Hi again, folks - Another reason for considering translating 'samma-sankappa' as "right resolve" or "right intention" is that there is little difference in meaning between the English "right view" and "right thought". With metta, Howard #75553 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Childers' Pali Dictionary on 'Sankappo' moellerdieter Hi Howard, all just wondering about the relation of ' sankappo' with sankhara khanda , which Nina recently- in my opinion well- defined by 'habitual tendencies ' ... what do you think? with Metta Dieter #75554 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:57 am Subject: Re: Control is Popular scottduncan2 Dear Tep, T: "...Thank you very much, Scott, for the diligent effort you made to answer my questions." Scott: The pleasure was all mine. Sincerely, Scott. #75555 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study moellerdieter Hi Howard , all, you wrote: ('D: the term dhamma ..understood to include all things whether mental or material , can not include nibbana .. ( all dhammas are impermanent , aren't they? ) > ==================== No. All *sankhara* are impermanent. All conditions/formations are impermanent. Whatever arises ceases. Nibbana, however, neither arises nor ceases nor is a condition nor has a condition. What *is* the case is that all dhammas are not self and without self, and that includes the ultimate emptiness, nibbana, which is, as stated in Udana 8.2,' D: but where is that inclusion /all-embracing stated ..?? I don't see it in Udana ... ) ? Howard: Dieter, in some sutta [I can't recall which - I think it may be in the Samyutta Nikaya] the Buddha is quoted as saying "Sabbe sankhara anicca. Sabbe sankhara dukkha. Sabbe dhamma anatta." Most people take that 'dhamma' to include nibbana, whereas 'sankhara' certainly does not. -------------------------------------------- D: Howard, we have a No ..No case here as .. but I would settle for a maybe ....depending on examination ;-) when you say: What *is* the case is that all dhammas are not self and without self, and that includes the ultimate emptiness, nibbana , I have to ask what dhammas have to do in ultimate emptiness? Any attribute to nibbana is meaningless , see e.g. what is described by the Udana quotation. By Sabbe sankhara anicca. Sabbe sankhara dukkha. Sabbe dhamma anatta the 3 wisdoms are addressed. But why do you point out 'sankhara' ? I am only questioning dhamma including nibbana. That A and B share something in common does not mean A includes B, or vice versa. That most people accept it, does not prove it , does it? H: These words 'Dhamma' and 'dhamma' are two different words - just homonyms. Nibbana dhamma is that reality called "nibbana". But the Dhamma to be given up as a raft that has served it's purpose is the Buddha's teaching. Once there is direct knowing, there is no need for doctrine any more than one would carry a raft on his/her shoulders after having crossed the river by means of it. D: I agree with you , one needs to take the meaning in respect to the context ,however cannot leave aside the question , whether that wouldn't include the teaching about conditioned dhammas as well..? But let us a have a closer look and I wonder whether it is the right time to include the other question you had in mind about nibbana . (?) Interesting here perhaps a brief excerpt The following excerpt is from "Living Dhamma: Toward the Unconditioned" by Ajahn Chah: "The Buddha talked about sankhata dhammas [conditioned phenomena] and asankhata dhammas [unconditioned phenomena] [...] Asankhata dhamma, the unconditioned, refers to the mind which has seen the Dhamma, the truth, of the five khandhas as they are -- as transient, imperfect and ownerless [...] Seeing in this way the mind transcends things. The body may grow old, get sick and die, but the mind transcends this state. When the mind transcends conditions, it knows the unconditioned. The mind becomes the unconditioned, the state which no longer contains conditioning factors. The mind is no longer conditioned by the concerns of the world, conditions no longer contaminate the mind. Pleasure and pain no longer affect it. Nothing can affect the mind or change it, the mind is assured, it has escaped all constructions. Seeing the true nature of conditions and the determined, the mind becomes free." #75556 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Control is Popular m_nease Hi Scott and Tep, I've been following this closely but haven't yet formulated a reply to Tep's questions. Also I haven't yet worked out the Paali, but in the Bodhi translation, is the word 'kaama.m' the one translated as 'willingly'? If not, which word is translated as 'willingly'? I think this may have considerable bearing on our discussion. Tep, I think your questions are good and valid. Scott has answered them to more to my satisfaction than I could have done, so with your permission I'll let his reply stand for the moment. I'll be away from my computer for a couple of days but am looking forward to more, this question doesn't yet seem to me to be fully resolved. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Duncan To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 6:38 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Control is Popular Dear Tep, Thank you for the opportunity to consider this question: T: "Is the following translation by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu also biased?..." MN 70 Kitagiri Sutta : "Bhikkhus, to the disciple with faith in the dispensation of the Teacher, the penetration into the teaching is lawful. Let skin, nerves, and bones remain, let the body dry up with the flesh and blood, that which should be attained by manly strength, manly effort and manly power should be attained. I will not give up the inner effort without attaining it. Bhikkhus, to the disciples with faith in the dispensation of the Teacher yoked to penetration, one of these results could be expected. Either perfection here and now, or with substratum remaining mindfulness of not returning." Scott: First, I like to compare one translation with another. Bh. ~Naa.namoli/Bh. Bodhi: "...For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, it is proper that he conduct himself thus: 'Willingly, let only my skin, sinews, and bones remain, and let the flesh and blood dry up on my body, but my energy shall not be relaxed so long as I have not attained what can be attained by manly strength, manly energy, and manly persistence. For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation, one of two fruits may be expected: either final knowledge here and now or, if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." Scott: There are differences in the two; I look for these phrases: 1) Ven. Thanissaro: "...to the disciple with faith in the dispensation of the Teacher, the penetration into the teaching is lawful..." Ven. Bodhi: "...For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation..." 2) Ven. Thanissaro: "...I will not give up the inner effort without attaining it..." Ven. Bodhi: "...but my energy shall not be relaxed so long as I have not attained..." 3) Ven. Thanissaro: "...to the disciples with faith in the dispensation of the Teacher yoked to penetration..." Ven. Bodhi: "...For a faithful disciple who is intent on fathoming the Teacher's Dispensation..." 4) Ven. Thanissaro: "...Either perfection here and now, or with substratum remaining mindfulness of not returning." Ven. Bodhi: "...either final knowledge here and now or, if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return." Scott: Then the Paa.li: "...Saddhassa bhikkhave saavakassa satthusaasane pariyogaaya vattato rumhaniya.m satthusaasana.m hoti ojavanta.m. Saddhassa bhikkhave saavakassa satthusaasane pariyogaaya vattato ayamanudhammo hoti: ' kaama.m taco ca nahaaru ca a.t.thi ca avasissatu upasussatu sariire ma.msalohita.m. Ya.m ta.m purisatthaamena purisaviriyena purisaparakkamena pattabba.m, na ta.m apaapu.nitvaa viriyassa satthaana.m bhavissatii'ti. Saddhassa bhikkhave saavakassa satthusaasane pariyogaaya vattato dvinna.m phalaana.m a~n~natara.m phala.m paa.tika"nkha.m: di.t.theva dhamme a~n~naa, sati vaa upaadisese anaagaamitaati..." Scott: Then I try to look at the key words or phrases and try to figure out the meaning. I refer, for the most part, to the PTS PED: 1) 'Fathoming' or 'penetration into the teaching': "Pariyogaahati & - gaaheti [pari+ogaahati] to penetrate, fathom, scrutinise...sq.(pa~n~naaya)..." ("Pa~n~naaya (indecl.) [ger. of pajaanaati...so expld by P. Commentators, whereas modern interpreters have taken it as instr. of pa~n~naa] understanding fully, knowing well, realising, in full recognition, in thorough realisation or understanding.) Scott: Here the reference is to that which pa~n`naa penetrates or fathoms. This would set the tone for understanding the rest of the passage, since it cannot possibly be referring to a person doing anything - pa~n~naa cannot be directed by will. 2) '...inner effort...', '...energy...': "purisaviriyena" "Viriya (nt.)...lit. 'state of a strong man,' i. e. vigour, energy, effort, exertion..." "Purisa...1. man..." Scott: Viriya cetasika is the 'strong man' - lovely phrase, poetic and conventional. In this particular passage, the concern would be whether or not the Buddha is making reference to intentional practise. There is no need to examine the other differences in translation. I have no idea why Ven. Thanissaro chose to use the 'substratum' phrase, except to imagine that it fits with the 'not-self' thing and the idea that something remains to voyage on exploring the wonders of Nibbaana. So there you have it, Tep. The passage refers to the workings of pa~n~naa and viriya. The passage does not refer, ultimately, to intentional practise, but to the functions of two mental factors. T: "...Do you mean Ven. Bhikkhu Bodi doesn't know that "it is pa~n~naa which 'understands' (pajaanaati)", so that's why he has made the mistake in the Note?" Scott: The Note is, as mentioned, fraught with the notion of intentional practise, while the translation seems unembellished. I don't know what Bhikkhu Bodhi understands regarding 'pajaanaati' and its relation to 'pa~n~naa'. I assume he knows more than I do about the finer details found in the Paa.li. The Note, however, clearly shows that he understands bhaavanaa by favouring a view that states that it is governed by the will of a practising person. Sincerely, Scott. #75557 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Childers' Pali Dictionary on 'Sankappo' upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 8/26/07 2:04:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: > Hi Howard, all > > just wondering about the relation of ' sankappo' with sankhara khanda , > which Nina recently- in my opinion well- defined by 'habitual tendencies ' ... > what do you think? > > with Metta Dieter > ========================= Well, it's clear to me that habitual tendencies or inclinations condition all forms of thinking (including resolving), and, conversely, our thinking conditions our inclinations. With metta, Howard #75558 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nilovg Hi Howard, I understand your point, I used to wonder also. I once asked Kh Sujin and she said: when the Buddha spoke about right thinking he included all kinds of wholesome 'thinking', such as renunciation etc. But, when talking about the factor right thinking of the eightfold Path, one has to say: right thinking *of the eightfold Path*. It arises together with right understanding and the object is a nama or rupa appearing now. It strikes the nama or rupa that appears now assisting right view that penetrates its nature. We can understand this when we think of the object of the citta that is accompanied by the path factors: nama or rupa appearing now. Right view and right thinking are together the wisdom of the eightfold Path whereas right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration are the concentration of the eightfold Path. Right speech, right action and right livelihood are the siila of the eightfold Path.The latter three only arise together when the Path has become lokuttara. As for now, none, or one of them at a time arises, as the occasion demands. That is why just now the Path is fivefold or six fold. Nina. Op 26-aug-2007, om 14:22 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Given that "right thought" is the way to > put "samma sankappa," the translation becomes "And what is the > right thought > that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in > acquisitions? Thought on > renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness. This is > the right > thought that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in > acquisitions." It > seems to me that "thought on renunciation, on freedom from ill > will, on > harmlessness" suggests more than thinking about or contemplating > these things. It > seems to me to suggest resolution. It seems to me to be thinking > about "doing > the right thing". #75559 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Childers' Pali Dictionary on 'Sankappo' nilovg Hi Howard, thank you for your research. But, I would like to return to he cetasika it represents: vitakka cetasika. It hits or touches the object. Nina. Op 26-aug-2007, om 19:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > That Pali dictionary gives the following for 'sankappo': Thought, > imagination; determination, resolve, wish. > As examples he gives the following: > Samsannasankappamano (adj.), In whose mind right thoughts or > aspirations are weakened. > Sankappa paripunna, My wishes are fulfilled. > Padutthama-nusankappo (adj.), The wishes of my heart are corrupt. #75560 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:41 pm Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness indriyabala Hi Nina and Howard, - Howard: Given that "right thought" is the way to put "samma sankappa," the translation becomes "And what is the right thought that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Thought on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness. This is the right thought that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions." It seems to me that "thought on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness" suggests more than thinking about or contemplating these things. It seems to me to suggest resolution. It seems to me to be thinking about "doing the right thing". Nina: I understand your point, I used to wonder also. I once asked Kh Sujin and she said: when the Buddha spoke about right thinking he included all kinds of wholesome 'thinking', such as renunciation etc. But, when talking about the factor right thinking of the eightfold Path, one has to say: right thinking *of the eightfold Path*. It arises together with right understanding and the object is a nama or rupa appearing now. It strikes the nama or rupa that appears now assisting right view that penetrates its nature. We can understand this when we think of the object of the citta that is accompanied by the path factors: nama or rupa appearing now. The Buddha: "When, indeed, bhikkhus, evil unskillful thoughts due to reflection on an adventitious object are eliminated, when they disappear, and the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated just within (his subject of meditation), through his reflection on an object connected with skill, through his pondering on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts, his endeavoring to be without attentiveness and reflection as regards those thoughts or through his restraining, subduing, and beating down of the evil mind by the good mind with clenched teeth and tongue pressing on the palate, that bhikkhu is called a master of the paths along which thoughts travel. The thought he wants to think, that, he thinks; the thought he does not want to think, that, he does not think. He has cut down craving, removed the fetter, rightly mastered pride, and made an end of suffering." [Bh.Bodhi's translation of MN 2] Tep: It seems to me that before one may become "a master of the paths along which thoughts travel", s/he should practice according to what the Buddha taught the monks in MN 2, i.e. : 1. elimination of a bad thought whenever it appears, or 2. reflection on wholesome thoughts (samma-sankappa), or 3. pondering on the drawbacks of a bad thought, or 4. endeavoring to be without attentiveness and reflection as regards those bad thoughts, or 5. beating down of the evil mind by the good mind with clenched teeth and tongue pressing on the palate -- i.e. by strong willed effort never to yield to unwholesome thoughts ! It seems to me these six "practices" for non-ariyans precede the "right thinking *of the eightfold Path*". Tep === #75561 From: Kenneth Elder Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:28 am Subject: Confucian mentality txbodhi Unlike some I think there are very valuable teachings in the Abhidhamma. But let’s be real here. If Ven. Ananda had chanted the Abhidhamma along with the Sutta at the first Buddhist Council meeting then the sections of the Abhidhamma would begin with the words “Thus have I heard” as is the case with the Sutta. Then there is the issue of the organ bases of the 6 fields of consciousness, eye for visual consciousness, ear for visual consciousness, etc., until mental consciousness where in the Sutta, Buddha did not (except in one metaphorical poetic passage) designate a specific organ and just said, “That physical basis for mental consciousness.” Some Abhidhamma passage or passages lists the heart as the bases for mental consciousness. A few years ago when I tried to explain to a Burmese Bhikkhu newly arrived in the US that pesticide poisoning at work and mercury poisoning and some small strokes had damaged my brain and reduced my ability to concentrate. He said to me that it was not the brain which controlled consciousness, that it was the heart that controlled consciousness. It was apparent that he had had no exposure to scientific knowledge unlike the Sayadaws who have gotten PhDs in philosophy in India. Except for the Greeks (and Celts?) who believed the brain to be the organ associated with consciousness all or most of the ancient people believed that the heart was the organ of mental activity and consciousness. Buddha left the organ associated with mental consciousness unstated in the Sutta presumably because he could see that some would doubt his teachings if he contradicted this popular misconception. Biologically the nerve ganglion of the solar plexus below the diaphragm is bigger and more complex than that associated with the heart; the solar plexus ganglion is like a small second brain in land animals. This may be why in martial arts and in Mahasi Sayadaw’s vipassana method this mid-upper belly area is emphasized. Then there is the issue of whether the Fruition moments of Nibbana always comes immediately after the first attainment of the Path moment of one of the Four Paths of Nibbana or whether as multiple Sutta imply that the Fruition attainment can come at a later time. Again and again the Sutta treat the second of the Eight Individuals of the Noble Ariya, the Faith-follower and the Dhamma-Follower as Ariya individuals functioning at the human mundane plane of time. They are listed in a Sutta as a distinct level in the list of merit of giving donations. Another Sutta given for the monk refusing to give up supper has Buddha describing each of the Eight Noble individuals including the twofold category of the Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower as having faith that would make them willing to lay their body down in a mud puddle to let a Buddha walk across un-muddied. These examples are quite inconsistent with a phenomena of a individual category that can exist for only about one millionth of a second. To argue otherwise strains simple logic. These issues were discussed by some Westerners including myself with Ven. U Silanada in a Abhidhamma and Vipassana retreat in Austin Texas in 1985. The very wise Ven. U Silanada understood the reasoning of those of us raising these points of logic about our supposition of a Sutta view vs. the Abhidhamma on these issues though he held to the Abhidhamma interpretation about the timing of the Path and Fruition. But a number of Burmese Bhikkhus with PhDs from India could not even understand my reasoning about the placing of the Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower in an ordinary human time scale events is inconsistent with a category of being who only exists for about a millionth of a second. They genuinely could not understand what I was talking about thought they had a good command of English and had PhDs in Philosophy. Sri Lanka, India and Tibet have the tradition of dialog and debate that is much less accepted in the Confucian minded culture of the Far East. That is why it is some of those from the Sri Lankan tradition like the acclaimed vipassana teacher Ven. Gunaratana of the West Virginia Bhavana Society Monastery use the Sutta to show that Fruition can come at a later time after the Path attainment of Stream-entry. The Chinese Confucian attitude is to never question the father, the teacher, the Emperor and this attitude pervades the Burmese and Thai Sangha. The implication by a recent person on this discussion board that to question the interpretation in a passage of the Abhidhamma or the Commentaries is to question the Buddha reflects this Confucian attitude. India has many more top theoretical physicists than China or Japan because in India like in Europe and the US there is this tradition of debate and dialog of differing views. While we owe Burma a great appreciation for the great gift of the Burmese forest monks preserving the practice of vipassana we also owe the Sri Lankan Sangha for their continuation of the original tradition of a non-Confucian discussion of views. It is my experience that even friends who apparently have attained Stream-entry can be a bit dogmatic and incorrect in their attachment to their own thoughts, not on the major points of course but on those middling points. For example my ex-Monk roommate Steven Waite saying that the Mahasi Sayadaw methods are vipassana and lead to Nibbana whereas the Goenka method is just concentration and doesn’t lead to Nibbana. I think that he is wrong and that people have attained Path with both methods. I think my roommate has attained First Path but not the Fruition experience yet. Peace and metta, Ken Elder #75562 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/26/07 2:45:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > I understand your point, I used to wonder also. I once asked Kh Sujin > and she said: when the Buddha spoke about right thinking he included > all kinds of wholesome 'thinking', such as renunciation etc. But, > when talking about the factor right thinking of the eightfold Path, > one has to say: right thinking *of the eightfold Path*. It arises > together with right understanding and the object is a nama or rupa > appearing now. It strikes the nama or rupa that appears now assisting > right view that penetrates its nature. We can understand this when we > think of the object of the citta that is accompanied by the path > factors: nama or rupa appearing now. > Right view and right thinking are together the wisdom of the > eightfold Path whereas right effort, right mindfulness and right > concentration are the concentration of the eightfold Path. Right > speech, right action and right livelihood are the siila of the > eightfold Path.The latter three only arise together when the Path has > become lokuttara. As for now, none, or one of them at a time arises, > as the occasion demands. That is why just now the Path is fivefold or > six fold. > Nina. > ====================== I understand what you are saying, Nina. However, I find a problem with it. At a moment of path (or fruition) consciousness, the "object" of consciousness is nibbana, and I have no belief in there being present any sort of thinking or any sort of resolve or intention at that time. What is present is nibbana - period. With metta, Howard #75563 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Control is Popular indriyabala Hi Mike (and Scott),- You wrote : > I'll be away from my computer for a couple of days but am looking forward to more, this question doesn't yet seem to me to be fully resolved. T: I'll be happy to continue when you are back, given that Scott still has an interest to "fully resolve" the key issue. But, personally, I think the issue is a dead-end street : you can walk in but not through it. ................................... SN 44.10: "If, Aananda, when asked by the Wanderer: 'Is there a self?,' I had replied to him: 'There is a self,' then, Aananda, that would be siding with the recluses and brahmins who are eternalists. "But if, Aananda, when asked: 'Is there not a self?' I had replied that it does not exist, that, Aananda, would be siding with those recluses and brahmins who are annihilationists. .................................... >M: > Tep, I think your questions are good and valid. Scott has answered them to more to my satisfaction than I could have done, so with your permission I'll let his reply stand for the moment. > T: In this world there are plenty of good and valid questions that have not been answered without a bias, Mike. Tep === #75564 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Childers' Pali Dictionary on 'Sankappo' upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/26/07 3:08:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > thank you for your research. But, I would like to return to he > cetasika it represents: vitakka cetasika. It hits or touches the object. > Nina. > ======================= On the basis of identifying sankappo with vitakka, there can be no samma sankappa in any of the jhanas beyond the first. Does that not bother you at all? In the Anupada Sutta, volition and decision were said to be exercised by Sariputta in most of the jhanas. In particular, he was able to decisively surmount jhana after jhana, and finally "by completely surmounting the base of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom." So, I am loathe to identify sankappo with vitakka in general, inasmuch as right thought/decision/resolve was developed and exercised by Sariputta, along with right view (pa~n~na), as he navigated the jhanas towards final release. With metta, Howard #75565 From: "colette" Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 7:38 pm Subject: Re: Confucian mentality ksheri3 Hi Ken, A robust statement if I do say so myself. Allow me to clarify some things about myself before commenting on a portion of your statement. THE CAUSE: Near Death Experience 1978 TOO MUCH SUPPORTING EVIDENCE to list in the "Mind's" contact with other dimensions of reality. Awareness = Consciousness I support the train of thought, school of philosophical theory, that states that the consciousness developes as a living thing therefore the Alaya-Vijnana IS APPLICABLE. I've worked the Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism, through the 90s after testing and beinging in the theory propounded by the Golden Dawn during the 80s. Now I'm working on the Buddhist view of esotericism primarily through Tibetan but the Chinese are in there as well. I am practicing different methodologies through meditation which has been my primary mode of operation since 1989. Concentration can certainly develope into meditation just as meditation can develope into concentration (samadhi). Now I'll only commetn on your last paragraph: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Elder wrote: >. It is my experience that even friends who > apparently have attained Stream-entry can be a bit > dogmatic and incorrect in their attachment to their > own thoughts, colette: ALL THOUGHT is a form of attachment. Dogmatism is a result of the attachment. Take pranayama for instance: inhale, hold, exhale, and rest, are all done in and to the same time table. The breath is the cause which propels the prana up the shishumna and through the chakraas. In pranayama, though, it's all done at the same beat of the drum, or to the same amount of time, to set a rythm. IF the or a thought is INCORRECT then it goes to show that the amount of time that the thought was held in consciousness as being the right when it was the wrong will be controlled by the same amount of time it was held to relieve the body of the toxin, or bad thought. I have to go. terribly sorry. toodles, colette not on the major points of course but on > those middling points. For example my ex-Monk roommate > Steven Waite saying that the Mahasi Sayadaw methods > are vipassana and lead to Nibbana whereas the Goenka > method is just concentration and doesn't lead to > Nibbana. I think that he is wrong and that people have > attained Path with both methods. I think my roommate > has attained First Path but not the Fruition > experience yet. Peace and metta, Ken Elder > #75566 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study sarahprocter... Dear Nina, Dieter, Howard & all, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > I looked at Howard's quote of the Udaana and also at its Co > translated by Masefield (II, 1012). Too long to type out now, but > very interesting. .... S: I wrote a series of posts quoting this material in the early DSG days -probably before you joined us, but Howard may recall. These are the numbers under 'Udana -Nibbana' in 'Useful Posts': Udana - Nibbana 8895, 8908, 8986, 9035, 9038, 15418, 22522, 65881 Here is an extract taken from the second one relating to the passage being discussed: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8908 ***** Extract: >> Udana VIII.1 > "There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor > fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor > dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of > nothingness, .................... >S: I may not have made it clear, that in the Masefield translation and Comnotes which I’m using, base is used instead of dimension (as here) in ‘There is, monks,that base’ (tadayatanam) ******************** (p.1012 Udana com): “...The Lord, having thus indicated, face to face, the existence, in its highest sense, of the unconditioned element, next says ‘Wherein there is neither earth, nor water’ and so on so as to indicate its own nature via an elimination of things that are the antithesis thereof. Just as nibbana is nowhere (to be found) amidst conditioned (sankhata things, since it has as its own nature that which is antithetical to all formations (sankhara), so are all cvonditioned things (not to be found) therein either, for the collection of things conditioned and unconditioned is (a thing) not witnessed......there is neither the earth element whose characteristic is that of hardness, nor the water element whose characteristic is that of oozing, nor the fire element whose characteristic is that of heat, nor the wind element whose characteristic is that of distending......absence therein of the four great elements, the absence of all derived materiality....absence..of any becoming associated with (the world of) sense desires and (the world of) form.....Even though its own nature is one in which there is an absence of forms, there is next said, so as to indicate the absence within nibbana of any of the states belonging to becoming in the formless (sphere), ‘Nor that base consisting of endless space......nor that base consisting of neither perception nor non-perception’.” ******************** >In other words, as I understand ‘endless space.....non-perception’, these lines are referring to the arupa planes where there are already an absence of the elements and all rupas. They are referred to here to indicate that even so, all ‘states belonging’ to these planes (i.e. all conditioned realities) are also absent.< ***** I can re-quote other passages from this Udana -nibbana series if anyone likes. Metta, Sarah >Nina: As Howard quotes, <.. that realm where there is neither > earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither realm of the infinitude > of space, > nor realm of the infinitude of consciousness, nor realm of > nothingness, nor > realm of neither perception nor non-perception> > There is a note to the Co with reference that nibbaana is aruupa (it > is not ruupa, or, the term aruupa is also used for naama): > immateriality. The point being made would seem to be that although > nibbaana is characterised by an absence of forms, it nonetheless has > none of the characteristics associated with the worlds belonging to > the formless sphere, whose own nature is similarly characterized by > an absence of forms/immateriality.> > That is why the aruupajhaananas are mentioned in the text, but > nibbaana is not those states. #75567 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Childers' Pali Dictionary on 'Sankappo' nilovg Hi Howard, Op 26-aug-2007, om 23:56 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > On the basis of identifying sankappo with vitakka, there can be no > samma sankappa in any of the jhanas beyond the first. Does that not > bother you at > all? -------- N: On the contrary, I find this very meaningful. As is explained in the Visuddhimagga, the person who develops jhaana does not need this jhaanafactor anymore. He abandons it, since he is more advanced. Some people can abandon both vitakka and vicaara at the same time. ------- H: In the Anupada Sutta, volition and decision were said to be exercised by Sariputta in most of the jhanas. ------- N: Vitakka is translated as applied thought and vicaara as sustained thought. The abandoning of the jhaanafacors as described in the Visuddhimagga is completely in conformity with this sutta. Volition and decision are not vitakka. Nina. #75568 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nilovg Hi Howard, Op 26-aug-2007, om 23:41 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > N: Right view and right thinking are together the wisdom of the > > eightfold Path whereas right effort, right mindfulness and right > > concentration are the concentration of the eightfold Path. Right > > speech, right action and right livelihood are the siila of the > > eightfold Path.The latter three only arise together when the Path > has > > become lokuttara. As for now, none, or one of them at a time arises, > > as the occasion demands. That is why just now the Path is > fivefold or > > six fold. > ====================== > I understand what you are saying, Nina. However, I find a problem with > it. At a moment of path (or fruition) consciousness, the "object" of > consciousness is nibbana, and I have no belief in there being > present any sort of > thinking or any sort of resolve or intention at that time. What is > present is > nibbana - period. ------- N: Nibbaana could not be the object if there were no citta and cetasikas that experience it. Lokuttara citta experiences nibbaana. This citta is accompanied by cetasikas, all eight factors of the eightfold Path, including vitakka, sammaasa"kappa, unless the citta is lokuttara jhaanacitta accompanied by the jhaanafactors of the second stage of jhaana. In that case there is no vitakka. Volition, cetanaa, accompanies each citta, of course it also accompanies the lokuttara citta. . The lokuttara citta is not "thinking", but vitakka touches or hits the object which is nibbaana. Nina. #75569 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Childers' Pali Dictionary on 'Sankappo' sarahprocter... Hi Dieter (Howard & all), --- Dieter Möller wrote: > Hi Howard, all > > just wondering about the relation of ' sankappo' with sankhara khanda , > which Nina recently- in my opinion well- defined by 'habitual > tendencies ' ... what do you think? .... S: Sankhara khandha includes all cetasikas except vedana and sanna (feeling and perception) which of course have their own khandhas. So vitakka cetasika is included in sankhara khandha as are all habitual tendencies to good and bad. On your useful exchange about dhammas as including nibbana, see this quote which Nina recently gave in #75413: **** >Nina: We read in the “Middle Length Sayings” (I, 35, Lesser Discourse to Saccaka) that Saccaka, son of the Jains, approached the venerable Assaji. He asked Assaji how the Buddha trained his disciples, and what his instructions were. Assaji answered that the Buddha instructed his disciples as follows: “Rúpa, monks, is impermanent, feelings are impermanent, perception (saññå) is impermanent, the habitual tendencies (sankhårakkhandha) are impermanent, consciousness is impermanent. Rúpa, monks, is not self, feeling is not self, perception is not self, the habitual tendencies are not self, consciousness is not self; all conditioned realities are impermanent, all dhammas are not self.”< **** S: Here, as Howard clarified, all conditioned dhammas are impermanent, but all dhammas (i.e conditioned and unconditioned) are anatta. Thanks again for raising all these helpful points. Metta, Sarah ======== #75570 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Confucian mentality sarahprocter... Hi Ken Elder (Ken E for short perhaps?), As Colette said, some robust comments. All Kens here make robust comments and that is said as a compliment:). I think you raise several good points, some of which have been discussed before at length. I'd actually like to respond to and discuss each one at a time. In summary, I believe these are: 1)Abhidhamma - where is the "Thus have I heard" 2)The heart-base thorny issue 3)Path and Fruition consciousness in succession? 4)The Faith-follower and Dhamma-follower - I think this point is related to 3) but may have mis-read it. 5) Questioning the Abhidhamma, Confucian attitudes, different cultures 6) practice of vipassana 7) Your roomate's attainments! **** Others would probably draw up a very different list from your post and I hope they will respond to their own list. This will be my working list, but I hope to have dialogue with you on it, otherwise I tend to fizzle out if I think there's no further interest in a discussion! Perhaps I'll just give my response to the first one today as I'm short of time. Maybe one a day if it works out that way.... In any case, many thanks for joining us and for this great intro. If you'd care to include any mundane details such as where you live, all the better! Metta, Sarah ===== --- Kenneth Elder wrote: > Unlike some I think there are very valuable teachings > in the Abhidhamma. But let’s be real here. <....> #75571 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:26 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness (old post of Suan) jonoabb Hi Suan --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > Dear Jon, Mike N, Nina, Sarah, Howard, Scott D, Rob K, Ken H, Chris > F, James ... > In the Pali texts, development of samaadhi is invariably associated > with samatha and vipassanaa. And, when they talk about samatha as a > line of pursuit, they want to mean samaadhi all the way to the level > of worldly Jhaana or samatha Jhaana. > > As you can imagine, a pursuer of samatha Jhaana will have passed > through levels of sammadhi below the First Jhaana. So, yes, the Pali > texts do imply the feasibility of samaadhi being developed as a form > of kusala cetasika to the best of one's capability. I think you are saying that mention of samatha in the texts is usually if not always in the context of jhana, and that there's no particular mention of the development of samatha at what I might call lower levels. If this is the case then I suppose there'd be no indication in the texts as to any particular lifestyle as a requirement for developing samatha at the lower levels. As a matter of interest, how do you see moments of metta and karuna that may arise spontaneoulsy in a day in terms of the 3-fold classification of kusala/punna as dana, sila and bhavana? Grateful for any further thoughts or comments. Jon #75572 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:26 am Subject: Perfections Corner (05) hantun1 Dear All, Continuation of the chapter on “Introduction.” The following is taken from “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, and different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ Before we listened to the Dhamma, akusala citta was likely to arise often, and we did not understand at all how to develop the eightfold Path. When someone has listened to the Dhamma, he acquires understanding of the development of pa~n~naa and of the eightfold Path. However, when people have gained already some degree of understanding, they can notice that sammaa-sati, right mindfulness, very seldom in a day arises and is aware of the characteristics of realities. Therefore, it is necessary truly to know oneself and to find out the reason why right mindfulness arises very seldom. It may be that someone has understood the right way of the development of pa~n~naa that can eradicate the wrong view of self and realize the four noble Truths. However, what is the reason that right mindfulness does not develop in accordance with one’s understanding of the Path? The reason is that everybody has defilements, and this can be compared to suffering from illness. We are like a sick person who does not know how to recover and gain strength. We see that the way we have to travel is extremely far, but when our body is not healthy and strong we cannot travel all the way through and reach our destination. The eightfold Path is the long way we have to travel in order to reach our destination, that is, the realization of the four noble Truths. If we do not examine and know ourselves, we are likely to be a person who knows the right Path but who cannot go along it. We are like someone who does not know the way to gain strength and recover from his ailments. Therefore, listening to the Dhamma and considering it so that we gain understanding, can be compared to the situation of a person who looks for the right medicine to cure his illness. Someone who does not listen to the Dhamma and does not even know that he is sick, will not look for medicine to cure his illness. As soon as he finds the Dhamma and has right understanding of it, he is like a person who has found the right medicine that cures his illness so that he has sufficient strength to travel a long way. The dhammas that make the citta healthy and strong so that one can walk the eightfold Path all the way through are the ten perfections. To be continued. metta, Han #75573 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:24 am Subject: Fwd: message for Han nilovg Begin doorgestuurd bericht: > Van: Lodewijk van Gorkom > Datum: 27 augustus 2007 11:11:36 GMT+02:00 > > Onderwerp: message for Han > > Please, pass on the following message to Han: > Dear Han, thank you very much for your wonderful message on old > age. It is of great help to me. I particularly liked your quotation > of the Sunnaparanta Sutra, one of my favorites! > We are looking for ward to meet you again in Bangkok next year. > With warm regards, yours > > Lodewijk > #75574 From: "jonoabb" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge jonoabb Hi Swee Boon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi Jon, . > When listening to music, I am not aware of being consciously having > to recall my memory of the prior note in order to enjoy the present > note. Of course there is no conscious awareness of the many thought processes that are going on all the time. There seems to be just "the music" or the conversation or whatever. But without a lot of processing there could be no conversation (or piece of music). > If listening to music is such a difficult and excruciating task, no > one would ever listen to music. It is neither difficult nor excrutiating. Just complex, but naturally so. > Likewise, when seeing my beautiful wallpaper on the computer screen, > I am not aware of being consciously having to recall my memory of > pixel number X in order to enjoy the whole image. Likewise. > The Buddha didn't teach Abhidhammic Robotics. Not with you here, I'm afraid. > What he taught is simple. Whatever is heard through the ear, that is > the external ear ayatana. Whatever is seen through the eye, that is > the external eye ayatana. Yes, but exactly what is it that is heard through the ear. Is it music/conversation, or is it audible data? Jon #75575 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:46 am Subject: Fwd: message for Lodewijk hantun1 Dear Nina, Please pass on the following message to Lodewijk. Dear Lodewijk, I am very happy to know that you like my message on old age, and also my reference to MN 145 Pu.n.novaada Sutta (Sunnaparanta Sutra), which happens to be one of your favorites. I also look forward to seeing you and Nina in Bangkok next year. Meanwhile, please take good care of yourself. With my warmest personal regards, Han #75576 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nilovg Dear Tep, thank you for your good points well worth considering. There are many ways of kusala and sometimes it is the right time for this particular kind, sometimes for another kind. It is so unpredictable what type of citta arises at a particular moment. If we do not forget that what we take for a person is citta, cetasika and ruupa which arise because of their own conditions, it will be clearer that there is no rule for the application of a certain kind of kusala. It all occurs in a moment. Also the development of the eightfold Path occurs in a moment. At one moment there may be conditions for having metta or compassion instead of anger, and at another moment there may be right understanding and right thinking which have as object the dhamma appearing at the present moment. I am not so inclined to thinking of this has to precede that. Nina. Op 26-aug-2007, om 21:41 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > the Buddha taught the monks in MN 2, i.e. : 1. elimination of a bad > thought whenever it appears, or 2. reflection on wholesome thoughts > (samma-sankappa), or 3. pondering on the drawbacks of a bad thought, > or 4. endeavoring to be without attentiveness and reflection as > regards those bad thoughts, or 5. beating down of the evil mind by > the good mind with clenched teeth and tongue pressing on the palate -- > i.e. by strong willed effort never to yield to unwholesome > thoughts ! It seems to me these six "practices" for non-ariyans > precede the "right thinking *of the eightfold Path*". #75577 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) nilovg Dear Han, Op 26-aug-2007, om 12:03 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > So I wonder how I can reconcile “when an object is > repulsive one can see it as unrepulsive (MN 152 Co)” > with “pleasant feelings should be known as painful (SN > 36.5)” ------- N: Pleasant feeling is dukkha. Why? Dukkha is not merely sorrowful. We should remember the deepest meaning of dukkha inherent in all conditioned realities. Whatever is impermanent is dukkha. Pleasant feeling arises and falls away immediately, it cannot last. As the Buddha said: in short, the khandhas of grasping are dukkha. Feeling is one of the khandhas. Then you are considering the text of MN 152). This text speaks about objects that are unrepulsive and repulsive. The text also states that when an object is unrepulsive one should see it as repulsive. Whatever arises and falls away is not beautiful. Another example given in the Co. is seeing an attractive person with the idea of foulness of the body. As I wrote to Tep, if we do not forget that what we take for a person is citta, cetasika and ruupa which arise because of their own conditions, it will be clearer that there is no rule for the application of a certain kind of kusala. It all occurs in a moment. Then we can read this sutta with right understanding, not with an idea of self who should exert will power to do this or that. Whatever wholesomeness occurs depends on conditions. The equanimity refers to insight knowledge, to the stage of sankhaarupekkhaa. This is insight, not thinking or applying will power. In this sutta we should also distinguish between the non-arahat and the arahat who has no like nor dislike. He has no kusala cittas but mahaa-kiriyacittas instead. Nina. #75578 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Confucian mentality sarahprocter... Hi Ken E, --- Kenneth Elder wrote: >....But let’s be real here. If Ven. > Ananda had chanted the Abhidhamma along with the Sutta > at the first Buddhist Council meeting then the > sections of the Abhidhamma would begin with the words > “Thus have I heard” as is the case with the Sutta. .... Another friend raised just this point and this was my reply: >S: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/71421 --- Herman Hofman wrote: > and more to thepoint, the Abhidhamma is not prefaced with evam me suttam. <....> .... S: <...> Also, from the Atthasalini, introductory discourse: "But if the heretic should say, had Abhidhamma been taught by the Buddha, there would have been an introduction prefatory to it, just as in many thousands of the Suttas the preface generally runs as, 'One day the Blessed One was staying in Raajagaha,' etc., he should be contradicted thus: 'The Jaataka, Suttanipaata, Dhammapada, and so on, have no such introductions, and yet they were spoken by the Buddha.' Furthermore he should be told, 'O wise one, this Abhidhamma is the province of the Buddhas, not of others; the descent of the Buddhas, their birth, their attainment of perfect wisdom, their turning of the Wheel of the Law, their performance of the Twin Miracle, their visit to the devas, their teaching in the deva world...........Even so Abhidhamma is not the province of others; it is the province of the Buddhas only. Such a discourse as the Abhidhamma can be taught by them only;.....There is, O wise one, no need for an introduction to Abhidhamma.' When this is so stated, the heterodox opponent would be unable to adduce an illustration in support of his cause."< .... S: Plese let me know what you think about this for a starter. Like you, I believe in lots of questioning and discussion. Metta, Sarah ======= #75579 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Making Comparisons (... Re: Proper Training as a Co...) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. It is very clear now. Respectfully, Han =========== N: Pleasant feeling is dukkha. Why? Dukkha is not merely sorrowful. We should remember the deepest meaning of dukkha inherent in all conditioned realities. Whatever is impermanent is dukkha. Pleasant feeling arises and falls away immediately, it cannot last. As the Buddha said: in short, the khandhas of grasping are dukkha. Feeling is one of the khandhas. #75580 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:58 am Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness kenhowardau Hi Howard, ------------- <. . .> H: > However, some suttas are clear, and some are not so clear. The Flood Sutta is not so clear. ------------- Without the Abhidhamma and the commentaries, we ordinary folk wouldn't have a clue. But, now that we have had it explained, it should be quite straightforward, I think. I think I could pass a basic test on the Flood Sutta. Of course, the more Abhidhamma I learn the more I will get out of it. And there is a long way to go before any of us understands the Dhamma perfectly. --------------------- H: > If it were all perfectly clear, there'd be no commentaries, ancient or modern, and no Buddhist discussion lists, and no Dhamma teachers. Oh, the Abhidhamma isn't perfectly clear either - not by a long shot. --------------------- I don't know of any Abhidhamma questions asked at DSG that have not been answered clearly. Some answers go beyond my level of study, and I don't try too hard to follow them. But there is nothing incongruous or inexplicable about any of the texts, as far as I know. ------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > Why do you pay so little attention to the Buddha's teaching on safeguarding the truth? You give perfunctory attention to that at the end of this post, but you do not at all take it to heart. -------------------------------------- We understand it differently. I understand the teaching on safeguarding the truth as a description of paramattha dhammas. Exactly which paramattha dhammas it describes I don't know. I haven't looked at it very closely. However, I suspect that the Buddha was praising people for saying something along the lines of, "This is the Dhamma I have heard from the Buddha. I have not yet proved it for myself, but I have a conviction that it is the truth." I don't think he was praising people who held convictions of other teachings, or who held convictions of their own (wrong) versions of his teaching. ------------------------------------------------ <. . .> H: > I take it, then, that your answer to my question is "No, no specific Abhidhamma comment on that sutta that you have in mind, and no commentary referenced with regard to that sutta"? I take it that this is, indeed your perspective, which you somehow think you know to be the "right" interpretation? --------------------------------------------- I am interested in the commentaries' interpretation. I have no time for someone's original interpretation if it contradicts the texts. Life is too short. ------------------------------- <. . .> > H: >In any case, Ken, even if one knew of this matter being > addressed in the Abhidhamma or in a commentary, the decision to abide > by that interpretation or not depends on guess who? It depends on > YOU. Ultimately it is YOU who decides how to interpret a sutta. > KH: > > > Decisions to abide or not abide by anything are just thinking, aren't > they? It is easy to say "I accept this: I reject that," but > ultimately, there is no control. Panna will arise when the conditions > for its arising are present. H: >Are you saying, then, that you are beyond thinking, and that you see what is what with well developed wisdom? It sure sounds that way. Are you beyond opinions, Ken? Have you reached a stage of knowing? ----------------------------- You have taken a strange tack here, Howard. I have seen you do the same thing before - with me and with other people. When I simply state the Dhamma the way (I believe) it is found in the texts you seem to think I am claiming to have attained enlightenment. (?) Just to reiterate: I can say "I abide by this interpretation, I don't abide by that interpretation," but in reality there are only dhammas. Who is this abider? Where are the so-called interpretations? They are just thinking (concepts), and concepts have no power of their own. As Sarah put it recently: "Of course, it's never a matter of determining situations and only panna can really understand any dhammas for what they are when they appear." ----------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > LOLOL! Your mind is caught, Ken. You are like a dog-with-a-bone, a tasty bone that you obsess about and which you cannot let go of. ----------------------------------------- See below. -------------- <. . .> H: > I believe indeed that there is nothing whatsoever that any of us experiences other than namas and rupas - khandhic phenomena, paramattha dhammas. I do not, however, reify them as you do nor do I believe that anything occurs in zero time. -------------- I think you mean that *the ancient commentaries* reify dhammas. They say, for example "conditioned namas experience an object." To you, that signifies reification. So the ancient commentaries are wrong and you are right. (!) As for the notion of zero time: that's something I haven't read anything about (for or against) in the texts. I have no opinion on it. ---------------------------- H: > Moreover, if the simple statement that there is nothing but paramattha dhammas were the entirety of what there were to say, then the ancient commentators you give so much lip service to needn't have spent so much of their precious time on commentary. ----------------------------- Another straw man bites the dust! -------------------- H: > And, Ken, I find it sad to see you writing about what "some people" long for. Your conceit is astounding. ---------------------- Nonsense! If Swee Boon or James or Phil had spoken the way I have you would have applauded. Opinions on what is fair comment and what is unfair depend mostly on whose side the speaker is on. Ask any football fan. :-) ----------------------------- H: > If one is ever going to make any progress on the Buddha's path, at least an initial iota of humility is needed. I don't have "the answers," Ken, and neither do you! Don't be so sure you do. Such certainty in unrealized beings doesn't become us! ---------------------------- As I see it, I am the one who has been arguing for non-arrogance. I am not the one who prefers his own ideas over the ancient Theravada commentaries and the Abhidhamma. ------------------------------------------ <. . .> H: > And who says "I don't buy that" with regard to the Buddha's teaching, per se? I don't recall anyone saying that? ------------------------------------------ That's true. The people who say that (and there are several - including even B Bodhi in his way) are careful to say that texts they are rejecting are in some way unauthentic or unauthorised. ----------------- H: > <. . .> And the Buddha for sure didn't want anyone to accept even his teachings without question and on the basis of authority. ----------------- Well, he did say we had to prove it for ourselves. But in the meantime, I think it is OK to take his word for it, don't you? ---------------------------- H: > Ken, you are coming across to me as a wannabe Dhamma dictator, a modern-day Buddhist Torquemada. ---------------------------- Nonsense! Most of my friends (outside DSG) have no interest in the Dhamma. I don't dictate to them. I never even mention the Dhamma to them. Nor do I dictate to anyone at DSG. I don't care if Swee Boon wants to follow Thanissaro's eternalist dogma. (Only conditions determine what will and will not happen, so why should worry?) I just want to ascertain, and discuss, the Dhamma that is recorded in the Theravada texts. Part of that Dhamma deals with how a student should regard a teacher and his teaching. That's what I am discussing now. It seems to me that, according to the texts, a student listens and learns. He doesn't interrupt the lesson with, "No, I don't buy that! I have a different opinion!" But you can do that if you want to, Howard. It doesn't worry me. Just don't expect me to agree that that is correct student-behaviour as described in the texts. :-) --------------------- <. . .> H: > This is off the topic. The question of what was involved in the sutta is that of whether it was the (multi-dhamma) process of "journeying towards awakening" that was involved, a process of crossing the flood, or a moment or moments of magga and phala. That is the issue. It is a matter of what the sutta pertains to, not twhat the core of the dhamma is. The fact of there in reality being nothing at any time other than paramattha dhammas is not the issue at all. I consider that a given. (My opinion! LOL!) --------------------- Ah, yes, thanks for reminding me. "Multi-dhamma process" is another name for conventional process. I only recognise the ultimate (single moment) process as being taught by the Buddha. So it's the same old dichotomy of 'formal practice' verses 'listening and learning.' Which of the two ways leads to satipatthana and the Eightfold path? You say (above) this is my personal obsession, but it is behind every serious disagreement that occurs on any DSG thread. ----------------------------------------------- <. . .> H: > LOL! First of all, you are again off-topic. Secondly, as regards this off-topic issue, you seem to be forgetting right resolve. In MN 117, after discussing right view, the Buddha took up right resolve as follows: "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong resolve as wrong resolve, and right resolve as right resolve. And what is wrong resolve? Being resolved on sensuality, on ill will, on harmfulness. <. . .> ---------------------------------------------------- (I see others have helpfully stepped in here.) Another way of putting that last sentence might be, "Thinking with sensuality, ill will or harmfulness." Don't you agree? As is always conceded in these discussions, cetana (though not a path factor) is at least present in path consciousness. So vipassana must involve a willing action of some kind. I think it would have to be the will to know the paramattha dhamma that has become the object of a single citta (or single citta-process) - that lasts a trillionth of a second. It will happen before there can be any premeditation, and it will be conditioned to arise by its forerunners (right understanding, the other path factors and the magga-citta itself), not by any idea of control. ------------------------------------------------ <. . .> KH: > > Or, to > > put it another way, the doctrine of anatta does not mean 'business as > usual.' It means that Path progress can only occur by conditions. Any > conventional effort to make progress happen is wrong effort. H: > Then your writing this post is wrong effort, and everything you do in your life is wrong effort. I think you are just being silly, Ken. You think you are on the mountaintop, Ken, not acting on the basis of conventional effort. That is delusional. ---------------------------------------------- Arrraghhhh! Why do you consistently ignore the answer to this objection even though DSG has gone over it time and time again? Conventional effort to exert control over paramattha reality is wrong effort. Conventional effort to write an email (or to put the cat out etc) is not wrong effort. Speaking of putting the cat out: I've got to go. Thanks for the spirited discussion. Ken H #75581 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:05 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (65) nichiconn dear friends, 12. So.lasanipaato 1. Pu.n.naatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa part 5 246. "Tuyheva saa.tako hotu, naahamicchaami saa.taka.m; sace bhaayasi dukkhassa, sace te dukkhamappiya.m. 247. "Maakaasi paapaka.m kamma.m, aavi vaa yadi vaa raho; sace ca paapaka.m kamma.m, karissasi karosi vaa. 248. "Na te dukkhaa pamutyatthi, upeccaapi palaayato; sace bhaayasi dukkhassa, sace te dukkhamappiya.m. 249. "Upehi sara.na.m buddha.m, dhamma.m sa"ngha~nca taadina.m; samaadiyaahi siilaani, ta.m te atthaaya hehiti. 250. "Upemi sara.na.m buddha.m, dhamma.m sa"ngha~nca taadina.m; samaadiyaami siilaani, ta.m me atthaaya hehiti. 251. "Brahmabandhu pure aasi.m, ajjamhi saccabraahma.no; tevijjo vedasampanno, sottiyo camhi nhaatako"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. RD: 'Keep thou thy raiment! Raiment seek I none. If ill thou fearest, if thou like it not, (246) Do thou no open, nor no hidden wrong. But if thou shalt do evil, or hast done, (247) Then is there no escape for thee from ill, E'en tho' thou see it come, and flee away. If thou fear ill, if ill delight thee not, (248) Go thou and seek the Buddha and the Norm And Order for thy refuge; learn of them To keep the Precepts. Thus shalt thou find good.' (249) 'Lo! to the Buddha I for refuge go, And to the Norm and Order. I will learn Of them to take upon myself and keep The Precepts; so shall I indeed find good. (250) Once but a son of brahmins born was I, To-day I stand brahmin in very deed. The nobler Threefold Wisdom have I won, Won the true Veda-lore, and graduate Am I, from better Sacrament returned, Cleansed by the inward spiritual bath.' *335 (251) *335 These four last lines are expansions of four brahminical technical terms, each connoting more than we could express with equal terseness: Tevijjo vedasampanno sotthiyo c'amhi nhaatako. The brahmin student performed, like a new knight, a bath-rite before returning home from his teacher's house. PRUITT: [Pu.n.naa:] 246. Keep the robe for yourself. I do not want the robe. If you are afraid of pain, if pain is unpleasant for you, 247. do not do an evil action either openly or in secret. But if you do or will do an evil action, 248. there is no release form pain for you, even if you flee [and] run away.* If you are afraid of pain, if pain is unpleasant for you, 249. go to the venerable Buddha as a refuge, to the Doctrine, and to the Order. Undertake the rules of virtuous conduct. That will be to your advantage. [The brahman:] 250. I go to the venerable Buddha as a refuge, to the Doctrine, and to the Order. I undertake the rules of virtuous conduct. That will be to my advantage. 251. Formerly I was a kinsman of Brahmaa. Today I am truly a brahman. I possess the triple knowledge, I am endowed with knowledge, and I am versed in sacred lore. [And] I am washed clean. *Thii 246cd-248ab are almost exactly the same as verses in S I 209 (KS I 268), Ud 51 (Ud trans. 92), and Pv 101 (PS 109). to be continued, connie #75582 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:23 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 182 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 182 Intro: In the previous sections it was mentioned what kinds of resultant consciousness are conditioned by the three kinds of formations in rebirth-linking and in the [three] kinds of becoming, and in what way they are conditions. As we have seen, there are three kinds of becoming: birth in sensuous planes, birth in ruupa-brahma planes and birth in aruupa-brahma planes. In the following sections more details are given. The kinds of generation such as egg-born etc., the destinies and other aspects have been taken into account. ----------- Text Vis. 182: Here is a statement of the bare headings starting from the beginning. ------ N: The Tiika states that where a detailed explanation has been given he wants to give bare headings beginning with the kinds of becoming. ------- Text Vis.: Of these [three kinds of] formations, firstly the formation of merit, when giving rebirth-linking, produces the whole of its result in two kinds of becoming; ------- N: As we have seen, The formation of merit, pu~n~naabhisa”nkaara, comprises kusala kamma of the sense-sphere and ruupaavacara kusala kamma, kusala kamma that is ruupa-jhaana. Kusala kamma of the sense- sphere produces rebirth-consciousness in the sensuous planes. Ruupaavacara kusala kamma produces rebirth-consciousness in the ruupa- brahma planes. ----------- Text Vis.: likewise in the four kinds of generation beginning with the egg-born, --------- N: the four kinds of generation are egg-born, womb-born, putrescence- (moisture-) born, and of apparitional generation (M.i,73). The Tiika adds that some humans are egg-born or moisture-born and that that is the reason why in this context four kinds of generation have been mentioned. Those who are born in the ruupa-brahma planes are of spontaneous birth but, as we have read before, some humans may be of spontaneous birth. This happens at the beginning of a world cycle. --------- Text Vis.: in two of the kinds of destiny, in other words, the divine and the human; in four of the stations of consciousness, [the human, and the planes of the first, second and third jhanas,] described thus, 'Different in body and different in perception ... different in body and same in perception ... same in body and different in perception ... same in body and same in perception ...' (D.iii,253); --------- N: As we have seen before, as to the stations of consciousness (vi~n~naa.na.t.thiti) birth is sevenfold: seven variations are mentioned (in the Co. to the ‘Great Discourse on Causation”): 1. As to diversity in body and in perception, these are humans, some devas (of the six classes which are of the sensesphere), and some spirits in lower realms. 2. Those born in the ruupa-brahma plane as the result of the first jhaana are diverse in body but identical in sa~n~naa. Thus, they are born with the ruupaavacara vipaakacitta that is the result of the first jhaana. 3. Those born as the result of the second and third jhaana are the same in body, but different in sa~n~naa. An example is the gods of streaming radiance, devaa aabhassaraa. 4. Born as result of the fourth jhaana. They are uniform in body and sa~n~naa. These four stations of consciousness are mentioned here since in this section the vipaakacittas produced by the formations of merit are taken together, thus, the results of kaamaavacara kusala kamma and ruupaavacaara kusala kamma. As to the fifth, sixth and seventh station of consciousness, this pertains to birth in the aruupa-brahma planes and it is not relevant in this section. -------- Text Vis.: and in only four of the abodes of beings, because in the abode of non-percipient beings it only forms materiality. ------- N: As we have seen, the abodes of beings are similar to the stations of consciousness, but as eighth is added: birth as result of the fourth aruupa jhaana, the sphere of neither perception nor non- perception. In this section only four are relevant as it does not deal with the result of aruupa-jhaana, the formation of the imperturbable. As to the abode of non-percipient beings, asa~n~nasatta, this does not pertain to the vipaakacittas dealt with in this section. They are without naama. ---- Text Vis.: Therefore it is a condition in the way already stated ------ N: As to ‘in the way already stated’, the Tiika mentions again asynchronous kamma-condition and decisive support-condition for these kinds of vipaaka. ------- Text Vis.: for twenty-one kinds of resultant consciousness in these two kinds of becoming, four kinds of generation, two kinds of destiny, four stations of consciousness, and four abodes of beings according as they are produced in rebirth-linking ((41)-(49), (57)-(61)) -------- N: The Tiika elaborates on the expression ‘as appropriate’, and states that there are fourteen vipaakacittas in rebirth-linking: santiira.nacitta that is ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling, and eight mahaa-kusala vipaakacittas which are vipaakacittas with sobhana hetus. Moreover: five ruupaavacara vipaakacittas which are the results of the five stages of ruupa-jhaana. ---------- Text Vis.: and the course of an existence ((34)-(41)), as appropriate. ------- N: These are the five sense-cognitions that are ahetuka kusala vipaakacittas, and also the ahetuka vipaakacittas that are receiving- consciousness, investigating-consciousness accompanied by happy feeling and investigating-consciousness accompanied by indifferent feeling. The Tiika counts only seven vipaakacittas in the course of an existence, since santiira.nacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling was counted already as rebirth-consciousness. That is why it emphasizes: as appropriate. Thus, fourteen and seven vipaakacittas are altogether twentyone vipaakacittas which are the results of the formation of merit, as appropriate. --------- Conclusion: All the details given here emphasize again that the way kamma produces vipaakacitta is very intricate. There are kusala kammas of the sense-sphere summarized as daana, siila and bhaavana and these include all kinds of wholesome deeds. We cannot know which of these deeds will produce result at which moment, as rebirth-consciousness or as vipaakacitta arising in the course of life. This is completely beyond control. Seeing is vipaakacitta arising in the course of life. It is only one moment of citta that arises and falls away very rapidly. We cannot know whether it is kusala vipaakacitta experiencing a desirable object or akusala vipaakacitta experiencing an undesirable object. When we read about all the details given in the previous sections we see that there are countless varieties in the vipaakacittas produced by kamma. It helps us to understand there there is no person who owns any dhamma and that there is no experiencer. ******* Nina. #75583 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:10 am Subject: Asoka Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Someone thought that considering the characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå would be a favorable condition for the arising of sati. That may be only thinking with the desire for sati and this will not be helpful. Right understanding of the realities appearing through the doors of the senses and the mind-door should be developed until paññå can realize the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå. Merely thinking about birth, old age and death is not the realisation of the truth. The conditioned dhammas which arise fall away immediately but we should not have desire for the direct experience of the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa. This is only realized at the fourth stage of insight, which is the first stage of mahå-vipassanå (principal insight) [1]. We are forgetful of the nature of anattå of sati and of the stages of insight. When sati does not arise we cannot do anything to cause its arising. Jack said: ”Don’t worry about sati, just develop understanding.” We should listen and consider the Dhamma and understand each time a little more what rúpa is and what nåma is. Khun Sujin explained the difference between the moment there is sati and the moment without sati several times. We may touch different things which are hard, but the characteristic of hardness does not appear when there is no sati. The thinking of conventional truth comes in all the time when we touch a book, a glass or a table. When there are conditions for mindfulness, sati can be aware of the characteristic of hardness, but this moment is extremely short. When it has fallen away there may be thinking again. Because of saññå, remembrance, we think immediately of the thing we touch and do not consider the characteristic of hardness. Hardness is a characterstic of a rúpa which can be directly experienced through the bodysense. We do not have to think about it in order to experience it. What appears through the bodysense is real but it falls away immediately. When sati arises, it may be aware of hardness, but only very shortly; at that moment understanding of that reality can develop so that it can be seen as just a kind of rúpa, and there is no notion of a glass or table which is hard. In this way we can learn that being aware of hardness is different from touching hardness without awareness. When sati arises the reality it is aware of is not different from what appears at this moment, but instead of forgetfulness there is sati which is non-forgetful of realities. We can begin to know that such a moment is a moment of sati. When we understand the characteristic of sati it can be accumulated. But when we cling to sati, when we try to have sati or when we try to separate realities from concepts we are on the wrong way. When sati arises we cannot help having sati, it is anattå. A moment of sati falls away immediately and after that there may be doubt about realities or ignorance. We cannot help having doubt and ignorance, they are anattå. --------- 1. The first stage is knowledge of the difference between nåma and rúpa; the second stage is knowledge of the conditions for nåma and rúpa; at the third stage paññå realizes the succession of nåma and rúpa as they arise and fall away very rapidly. At the fourth stage paññå realizes more clearly the arising and falling away of nåma and rúpa, one at a time. ********** Nina #75584 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Childers' Pali Dictionary on 'Sankappo' upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/27/07 4:37:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > Hi Howard, > Op 26-aug-2007, om 23:56 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > >On the basis of identifying sankappo with vitakka, there can be no > >samma sankappa in any of the jhanas beyond the first. Does that not > >bother you at > >all? > -------- > N: On the contrary, I find this very meaningful. As is explained in > the Visuddhimagga, the person who develops jhaana does not need this > jhaanafactor anymore. He abandons it, since he is more advanced. Some > people can abandon both vitakka and vicaara at the same time. > ------- > H: In the Anupada Sutta, volition and decision were said to be exercised > by Sariputta in most of the jhanas. > ------- > N: Vitakka is translated as applied thought and vicaara as sustained > thought. The abandoning of the jhaanafacors as described in the > Visuddhimagga is completely in conformity with this sutta. > Volition and decision are not vitakka. --------------------------------------- Howard: I think you may be missing my point, Nina. I agree that volition and decision are not vitakka, and I agree that the application which is vittaka in access concentration and the 1st jhana becomes superfluous upon entry to the 2nd jhana, at which point one's meditation proceeds with ease. The volition and decision, however, which do continue, are forms of thinking, and I believe that sankappa is closer to them than vitakka. Sariputta advanced through the (Buddhist) jhanas by exercising right thinking and right intention, seeing again and again the deficiency in the current jhana, which, BTW, is said to be standard in advancing through the jhanas. For example, there is the following with regard to Sariputta's "sojourn" in the 2nd jhana, in which he sees the need to go beyond that jhana: ______________________ <> ---------------------------------- I consider that last sentence important: "He understood; ‘There is an escape beyond this’, and with the cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is." This is right thinking and right resolve, IMO. To see that conditions are unsatisfactory and to surmount them by relinquishment is both right view and right intention; it is wisdom. ------------------------------------------------ > Nina. > ================================= With metta, Howard #75585 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 8/27/07 4:47:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: > N: Nibbaana could not be the object if there were no citta and > cetasikas that experience it. Lokuttara citta experiences nibbaana. > This citta is accompanied by cetasikas, all eight factors of the > eightfold Path, including vitakka, sammaasa"kappa, unless the citta > is lokuttara jhaanacitta accompanied by the jhaanafactors of the > second stage of jhaana. In that case there is no vitakka. Volition, > cetanaa, accompanies each citta, of course it also accompanies the > lokuttara citta. . > The lokuttara citta is not "thinking", but vitakka touches or hits > the object which is nibbaana. > Nina. > ===================== Nibbana is unconditioned and not relative to anything else. Any "knowing" of nibbana would be quite different from ordinary citta and cetasika. It would be the featureless vi~n~nanam anidassanam of the Kevatta Sutta. I find the idea of a nibbana that is an object hit upon or touched by vitakka to be inappropriate as regards the unconditioned. Nibbana is not just some object to be examined. Nibbana is not known - it is realized. With metta, Howard #75586 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:02 am Subject: Conditions Ch 12, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (II, Kindred Sayings on Cause, Ch VII, the Great Chapter, § 63, Child’s Flesh) about parents who were with their child in the jungle. Since there was no food and they would have to die of hunger, they slew their child and ate its flesh, not for pleasure, from indulgence, for personal charm or plumpness. They took it in order not to die and to be able to cross the jungle. We then read that the Buddha said to the monks: Even so, monks, I declare should solid food be regarded. When such food is well understood, the passions of the five senses are well understood. When the passions of the five senses are well understood, the fetters do not exist bound by which the ariyan disciple could come again to this world. Physical nutriment conditions the rúpas of the body by way of åhåra- paccaya, nutriment-condition. As we have seen, there are three kinds of mental nutriment which are: contact (phassa), volition (manosañcetanå) and citta (viññåna). Just as physical food supports and maintains the body does mental nutriment support and maintain the accompanying dhammas. In the case of mental nutriment the conditioning dhamma is conascent with the conditioned dhammas. The mental nutriments condition the dhammas which arise together with them and the rúpas produced by citta and cetasikas by way of nutriment-condition. At the moment of rebirth the mental nutriments condition the associated dhammas and the rúpa produced by kamma by way of nutriment-condition (Patthåna, Faultless Triplet, Ch VII, Investigation Chapter, Nutriment, § 429). As to the mental nutriment which is contact, phassa, this is a cetasika which contacts the object so that citta and the accompanying cetasikas can experience it [1]. Without contact citta and cetasikas could not experience any object, thus, contact supports them, it is a mental nutriment for them. It accompanies each citta and it conditions citta and the accompanying cetasikas by way of åhåra-paccaya, nutriment-condition. It also conditions rúpa produced by citta and cetasikas by way of nutriment-condition. When there is bodily painful feeling we know that there is contact, otherwise there could not be the experience of an unpleasant object. This experience does not last. When hearing arises we know that there is another kind of contact; it contacts sound so that hearing can experience it. When there is mindfulness of realities as they appear one at a time, we can understand that there are different contacts all the time and that the experiences of the different objects do not last. -------- 1. Phassa is nåma, it is not physical contact. ******* Nina. #75587 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (05) nilovg Dear Han, Op 27-aug-2007, om 11:26 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: However, when people have gained already some degree of understanding, they can notice that sammaa-sati, right mindfulness, very seldom in a day arises and is aware of the characteristics of realities. Therefore, it is necessary truly to know oneself and to find out the reason why right mindfulness arises very seldom. --------------- N: This is a question that naturally arises. People wonder what to do. And here is the answer: > the Dhamma and does not even know that he is sick, > will not look for medicine to cure his illness. As > soon as he finds the Dhamma and has right > understanding of it, he is like a person who has found > the right medicine that cures his illness so that he > has sufficient strength to travel a long way. The > dhammas that make the citta healthy and strong so that > one can walk the eightfold Path all the way through > are the ten perfections.> --------- N: There are opportunities for the development of the perfections all the time, in very ordinary situations of life. Take patience. We read the definition: Patience has the characteristic of acceptance; its function is to endure the desirable and undesirable; its manifestation is tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they really are is its proximate cause. ------ This is the translation of B.B. and as I quoted I did not change it. Acceptance, this is in Thai: endurance. When we become older with all the disadvantages and ailments we have an opportunity to be patient. If we are not patient in small matters how can we have patience to keep on developing the eightfold Path, life after life. We read:its manifestation is tolerance or non-opposition. Non-opposition, in Thai the translation has: non-anger. When yahoo was so slow, Sarah said: have patience. A small matter again, but it should not be overlooked. We do not have to think all the time: now 'I' have to develop the perfections. But if we understand that there are opportunities for them there will be conditions. ***** Nina. #75588 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:50 am Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Jon, > Of course there is no conscious awareness of the many thought > processes that are going on all the time. There seems to be just > "the music" or the conversation or whatever. But without a lot of > processing there could be no conversation (or piece of music). How is this relevant to satipatthana? > Yes, but exactly what is it that is heard through the ear. Is it > music/conversation, or is it audible data? Robots hear audible data. Humans hear music, conversations and audible data. Swee Boon #75589 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness indriyabala Dear Nina, - I would like to ask you to kindly reconsider your reply below. I was talking about MN 20 Vitakkasanthana Sutta (The Removal of Distracting Thoughts). >T (#75560): It seems to me these six "practices" for non-ariyans > precede the "right thinking *of the eightfold Path*". N: At one moment there may be conditions for having metta or compassion instead of anger, and at another moment there may be right understanding and right thinking which have as object the dhamma appearing at the present moment. I am not so inclined to thinking of this has to precede that. T: But it is so clear by the wordings of MN 20 that "this has to precede that; if that fails, then follow another", for example : " ... If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu who ponders on their disadvantageousness, he should in regard to them, endeavor to be without attention and reflection. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. ... ... If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection as regards evil, unskillful thoughts, he should reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.soma.html T: Can you deny that clear precedence? Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep, > thank you for your good points well worth considering. > There are many ways of kusala and sometimes it is the right time for > this particular kind, sometimes for another kind. It is so #75590 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: satipatthana as island of refuge upasaka_howard Hi, Swee Boon (and Jon) - In a message dated 8/27/07 11:51:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nidive@... writes: > Hi Jon, > > >Of course there is no conscious awareness of the many thought > >processes that are going on all the time. There seems to be just > >"the music" or the conversation or whatever. But without a lot of > >processing there could be no conversation (or piece of music). > > How is this relevant to satipatthana? > > >Yes, but exactly what is it that is heard through the ear. Is it > >music/conversation, or is it audible data? > > Robots hear audible data. Humans hear music, conversations and > audible data. -------------------------------------- Howard: What you say here is (informally) true, Swee Boon, but my perspective would lead me to rephrase it as "Robots simulate hearing audible data. Humans hear audible data and 'hear' music and conversations." I reformulate this in this way for two reasons: 1) Hearing is an act of consciousness, and I am unaware of any basis for assuming that such has been developed by computer engineers, and 2) Music and conversations, as such, are mind-door phenomena, not ear-door phenomena. While I literally hear sounds, I cognize music & conversations and only figuratively hear them. ------------------------------------------- > > Swee Boon > ======================== With metta, Howard #75591 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Q: Some Questions Arising Out of Abhidhamma Study moellerdieter Dear Sarah, Nina , Howard and all, you wrote: 'S: I wrote a series of posts quoting this material in the early DSG days -probably before you joined us, but Howard may recall. These are the numbers under 'Udana -Nibbana' in 'Useful Posts' thanks for the links and the quotation , Sarah! We know that from the vast literature of the canon , only very few sources refer to nibbana (besides its connection to the end of suffering , being the aim ) and that - as far as I know- only negatively , i.e. describing what nibbana is not. Howard , in another thread , just stated : 'Nibbana is not known - it is realized' (very well said, Howard ;-) ) . About what is not known , we cannot talk , and therefore should be silent .. not only an advise I remember from (Buddhist) acariyas but also the conclusion of philosopher Wittgenstein. Brings me back to the question of including nibbana among the 4 categories of Abhidhamma (Paramattha Dhammas) . Citta, Cetasika and Rupa are more or less identical with the 3 respectively 5 Khandas . though cetasika includes the element of quality (kusala/akusala ..) so more or less in line with the Law of Dependent Orgination . But by adding nibbana , the common ground is left with the consequence of contradiction and confusion. Therefore it is still not clear to me whether the grouping of the 4 categories is indeed stated within the Abhidhamma Pitaka (with reason) , or interpretation by commentaries like the Abhidhamma Sangaha (?) with Metta Dieter #75592 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:17 am Subject: Re: Making comparisons nichiconn Dear Tep, Tep: I appreciate your wisdom. It seems a lot higher than that of an ordinary bookworm. Connie: Thanks - alas, I can't agree. The big break-through in learning to read written English came when I was a toddler & finally figured out that my bedroom light switch was upside down, so the marks for ON and OFF finally made sense with the marks in the books my mother would read to me. Until then, I could just memorize. But the biggest book I have is still this 'fathom long' one named 'Connie Belle'... I take it that the bell thing is to draw my attention back to whatever it is in there that I'm supposed to understand, but now at 50 years, I'm still waiting for the light to come on. I guess we're all pretty much ordinary bookworms there. As for the rest, below, yes. Also, smiling, let me add that there's just a tinge of jealousy when I remember you have the Pa.tisambhidaa so often quoted in the Vism! Good on ya, or anumodana, as they say. peace. Tep: I think the Q&A session like this helps make several ideas in the Path of Purification clearer. Yet there are a lot more of "the pieces" to fall in the wide gaps between the following milestones : 1. Discussion and study of the Teachings ... 2. The several truths, aspects of the dependent origination, methods, and characteristics, become evident ... 3. Tender insight-knowlege called contemplation of rise and fall is established ... 4. Stream entry ... >C: >Questions, once all the pieces that let them be really >well formulated fall into place, kind of answer >themselves, don't they? > T: Yes. A Q&A session like this also helps to fullfil that. Thanks. Tep === #75593 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness nilovg Dear Tep, I translated the entire co to this sutta and I find the texts most helpful. It was posted here, but I shall quote parts. I found that satipatthana was implied all the time. Take the word reflect that I discussed with Scott: not just thinking. More than that. Op 27-aug-2007, om 18:13 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > ... If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu who > ponders > on their disadvantageousness, he should in regard to them, endeavor > to be without attention and reflection. Then the evil unskillful > thoughts > are eliminated; they disappear. .. ------- The Co explains, when unwholesome thinking is accompanied by attachment, the different object (nimitta) he should pay attention to is foulness, asubha. And when there is attachment to things, such as robes, he should reflect on the impermanence of things. When thinking with aversion arises towards living beings he should develop metta, loving kindness. When thinking with aversion arises towards things he should pay attention to elements. When thinking with delusion arises the bhikkhu should depend on five dhammas. The Co. then gives further explanations. First the Co explains about foulness. When someone finds a hand or a leg of someone else beautiful he should develop the idea of the foulness of the body. To what is he attached? To hairs of the head, hairs of the body, to urine (the last mentioned of the thirtytwo parts of the body)? The Co mentions that the body has threehundred bones (see Vis. VIII, 101), bound by ninehundred sinews. What is unclean goes out by nine doors and ninetynine thousand pores, and it has a stench like a corpse. It is ugly and foul. When he develops the meditation on the thirtytwo parts of the body he will not find anything excellent in the body. In this way he can abandon lust that arises for living beings. If attachment to things such as bowl or robe arises, he should consider the fact that they have no owner and that they are not lasting, just as is stated in the explanation of Satipatthåna. N: Things such as bowl or robes are mere rupa dhammas that arise and fall away, they are impermanent and do not belong to anyone. The bhikkhu has to develop satipatthana all the time. The Co states that when he has anger towards living beings he should develop metta, as he can learn from the suttas, such as the Discourse on the Parable of the Saw (M.N. I, no 21). In that way he can abandon anger, and then metta is an object different from the object of aversion. When he has aversion towards things, when he knocks a table, a thorn, a sharp and pointed leaf, then he should consider the elements in this way: with whom are you angry? With the element of earth, of water etc.? Then he will abandon anger. N: By the development of vipassana he realizes that there are nama elements and rupa elements. What appears through touch is only hardness, temperature or motion. ** --------- Co: Sutta: If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection as regards evil, unskillful thoughts, he should reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). **** The Commentary explains how he should reflect on the source of his unwholesome thoughts. He should understand their conditions and causes. The term sa.nkhaara is used, meaning here: the condition and cause, or the root. The Buddha said that the bhikkhu should realize the conditions for his thoughts. He should find out and consider what the cause is of his thoughts and what not; he should consider what the root and what the condition is of such thought, and why it arises. N: The bhikkhu should not merely think about this, but he should directly understand conditions. He should have a thorough understanding of the Dependent Origination. So long as he has not eradicated ignorance there are conditions for akusala cittas. **** Through satipatthana one will have more understanding of D.O. Only conditioned phenomena, no experiencer, no on involved. ------ I think there can be wise reflection alternated with satipatthana, and also reflecting can be realized as non-self. Nina. #75594 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Childers' Pali Dictionary on 'Sankappo' nilovg Hi Howard, Op 27-aug-2007, om 16:31 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I think you may be missing my point, Nina. I agree that volition and > decision are not vitakka, and I agree that the application which is > vittaka in > access concentration and the 1st jhana becomes superfluous upon > entry to the > 2nd jhana, at which point one's meditation proceeds with ease. -The volition and > decision, however, which do continue, are forms of thinking, and I > believe > that sankappa is closer to them than vitakka. --------- N: I would like to keep strictly to the Pali texts and not mix up cetasikas. Sankappa is vitakka cetasika. Adhimokkha, decision orresolution, and cetana have other functions, they are different from vitakka. -------- > h: Sariputta advanced through the > (Buddhist) jhanas by exercising right thinking and right intention, > seeing again > and again the deficiency in the current jhana, which, BTW, is said > to be > standard in advancing through the jhanas. For example, there is the > following with > regard to Sariputta's "sojourn" in the 2nd jhana, in which he sees > the need to > go beyond that jhana: > ______________________ > < joy, the > happiness, and the unification of mind; the contact, feeling, > perception, > volition, and consciousness; the enthusiasm, decision, energy, > mindfulness, > equanimity, and attention - these states were defined by him one by > one as they > occurred; known to him those states arose, known they were present, > known they > disappeared. He understood thus: "So indeed, these states, not > having been, come into > being; having been they vanish." Regarding those states, he abided > un-attracted, un-repelled, independent, detached, free, > dissociated, with a mind rid of > barriers. He understood; ‘There is an escape beyond this’, and with > the > cultivation of that attainment, he confirmed that there is.>> > > I consider that last sentence important: "He understood; ‘There is an > escape beyond this’, and with the cultivation of that attainment, > he confirmed > that there is." This is right thinking and right resolve, IMO. To > see that > conditions are unsatisfactory and to surmount them by > relinquishment is both > right view and right intention; it is wisdom. ------- N: I checked the Co. It states as to the plane of neither perception nor non-perception : mindful he emerges from that. Co: he knows by insight and emerges from the jhaana. As you said: he understood: right view and right thinking (you said right intention using the other translation, but it is sammaasankappa). These accompany the other Path factors. Here he has emerged from jhaana and applies insight. It is said in the Co. that he developed calm and insight. I remember there was discussion about what else besides the meditation subject of jhaana can be known by jhanacitta. I will not repeat this matter. Sariputta was so swift, he had swift wisdom. He could develop jhana and emerge and have insight, know with keen wisdom all the cetasikas. Another example is the Dighanakhasutta, where he fanned the Buddha, was very quickly attaining jhana and emerging in between the fanning, and developed insight up to arahatship. He could do all that. Another example: on his almsround he could while standing at a doorstep attain nirodha samaapatti. (See the life of Sariputta by Ven. Nyanaponika). Nina. #75595 From: han tun Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (05) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your very valuable advice. * There are opportunities for the development of the perfections all the time, in very ordinary situations of life. Take patience. * When we become older with all the disadvantages and ailments we have an opportunity to be patient. If we are not patient in small matters how can we have patience to keep on developing the eightfold Path, life after life. * When yahoo was so slow, Sarah said: have patience. A small matter again, but it should not be overlooked. * We do not have to think all the time: now 'I' have to develop the perfections. But if we understand that there are opportunities for them there will be conditions. I have noted down these points with gratitude. I hope you will add such advices, as we go along with my presentation on the Perfections. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > However, when people have gained already some > degree of understanding, they can notice that > sammaa-sati, right mindfulness, very seldom in a day > arises and is aware of the characteristics of > realities. Therefore, it is necessary truly to know > oneself and to find out the reason why right > mindfulness arises very seldom. > --------------- #75596 From: "colette" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:37 am Subject: Re: Confucian mentality ksheri3 Hi Ken, I'll try to continue now, since the list doesn't want to make posts too long by reprinting old material I've deleted the intro to my premises, here, and am continuing. > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Elder > wrote: > >. It is my experience that even friends who > > apparently have attained Stream-entry can be a bit > > dogmatic and incorrect in their attachment to their > > own thoughts, > > colette: ALL THOUGHT is a form of attachment. Dogmatism is a result > of the attachment. Take pranayama for instance: inhale, hold, exhale, > and rest, are all done in and to the same time table. The breath is > the cause which propels the prana up the shishumna and through the > chakraas. In pranayama, though, it's all done at the same beat of > the drum, or to the same amount of time, to set a rythm. > > IF the or a thought is INCORRECT then it goes to show that the amount > of time that the thought was held in consciousness as being the right > when it was the wrong will be controlled by the same amount of time > it was held to relieve the body of the toxin, or bad thought. colette: what I essentially was getting at here, but now am going to be forced into the redicule of the dogmatist, is the mundane consciousness that many practioners CLING TO, many practioners RELY ON, many practioners actually take for granted, the basic concept of purification, of garbage in garbage out or no deposit no return consciousness that they bring forth and enter, for instance, a stream of consciousness and abuse the dogma since the dogma is absolutely fundamental. It's like a movie with Chris Walken where a politician campaigns for "the children" but when confronted by the gunman, C.Walken, the politician raises the child up in front of himself as a human shield i.e. no child left behind essentially means that there are to be no witnesses living after the pilaging and carnage of the Bush family and admin. has had it's way with the democracy of representational forms of government such as the USA. It also relates very nicely to the debates between the UTILITARIAN and the RULE UTILITARIAN. The goal of the breathing is to train the body to a certain rythm and to take control of the bodies rythm in a deliberate and intentional way, fashion. The dogmatist that may've tried the excercise with accomplishment or without accomplishment may become frustrated by the amount of time it takes to practice this and so simply drops the issue. Now I've dropped the practice of pranayama because of my conditions of life yet I still maintain many of the REALIZATIONS acquired during the practice and the GOALS of the practice, since 1985 or 86. The concept I've applied of removing the bodies toxins through the rythmic breathing is simply fundamental thought where I bind the practice to the here & now to a similar condition/act. The dogmatist will probably, soon after abandoning the practice, will continually rely on the simple concept of the need to cleanse the body through the rythmic actions of breathing while they have absolutely no faith in the practice and simply rely on it as a means of discouragement to any future practioner that wishes to gain more than they have gained through their blasphemous attitude of prostituting the pracgtice to gain status and/or finance. The dogmatist will forget, if the dogmatist ever actually knew in the first place, that a person can only enter a stream once, and so will be confounded if different results accur that negate the miserly glutton and the miserly glutton's status. Lets move on. ----------------------------------- > not on the major points of course but on > > those middling points. For example my ex-Monk roommate > > Steven Waite saying that the Mahasi Sayadaw methods > > are vipassana and lead to Nibbana whereas the Goenka > > method is just concentration and doesn't lead to > > Nibbana. colette: accept it as nothing more nor nothing less than HIS VIEW. Consciously, this is how he perceives the practice. In the vastness of potentialities he has INTENTIONALLY ELIMINATED, much as though he were a Chinese soldier seeking to control Tibet, or a jealous suburbanite that wishes to demark THEIR property line as being something more special than the neighbors which naturally required the building of OBSCURATIONS or walls (those Chinese are keen on building walls or putting things in boxes aren't they), to reach Nibbana. Nibbana to him, only has a certain path and methodology. Now he can certainly accept other positions that others maintain concerning the achievement of Nibbana but a lot of dogmatists fall victim to their delusions of the path while on the path i.e. taking LSD enjoying the trip but forgeting that you're taking LSD and the trip is a resultant consciousness where the "trippee" falls victim to actually cognizing the apperitions as being tangible. Here I could go into applying the Yogacara school and the Mind-Only schools but that's off topic right now. It's a very good off-ramp however, if anybody likes to take it in the future, lots of sites to see. --------------------------------- I think that he is wrong and that people have > > attained Path with both methods. colette: I'll stand with that statement although let him be "wrong" if "wrong" is the word you mean here. You say you believe that both methods can attain Nibbana, well, then, doesn't that mean that besides two methodologies there are three, or four, or five, or... ways, paths to nibbana? Kindof like quantum physics and string thoery huh? Dimensions I mean. The rest is too much to read and commetn on right now. Why not go with Sarah's list she commented on and maybe I'll be able to work them into your "robust" statement. toodles, colette I think my roommate > > has attained First Path but not the Fruition > > experience yet. Peace and metta, Ken Elder > > > #75597 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:47 pm Subject: Re: Confucian mentality rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Elder wrote: > let's be real here. > Then there is the issue of the organ bases of the 6 > fields of consciousness, eye for visual consciousness, > ear for visual consciousness, etc., until mental > consciousness where in the Sutta, Buddha did not > (except in one metaphorical poetic passage) designate > a specific organ and just said, "That physical basis > for mental consciousness." Some Abhidhamma passage or > passages lists the heart as the bases for mental > consciousness. > > A few years ago when I tried to explain to a Burmese > Bhikkhu newly arrived in the US that pesticide > poisoning at work and mercury poisoning and some small > strokes had damaged my brain and reduced my ability to > concentrate. He said to me that it was not the brain > which controlled consciousness, that it was the heart > that controlled consciousness. It was apparent that he > had had no exposure to scientific knowledge unlike the > Sayadaws who have gotten PhDs in philosophy in India. > _____________ Dear Ken I have a Phd from the science department of a western university, yet firmly believe that the heart base is where non-sense door mentality arises. Note: the Commentaries are specific that the heart base cannot control consciousness. Robert #75598 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:55 pm Subject: Re: Another Observation about Mindfulness indriyabala Dear Nina and others, - I think your reply (message #77593) does not answer my question ! I am afraid that there is a chance that the short question was not clear enough to you. ................... >T: (#75589) : But it is so clear by the wordings of MN 20 that "this has to precede that; if that fails, then follow another", for example : " ... If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu who ponders on their disadvantageousness, he should in regard to them, endeavor to be without attention and reflection. Then the evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. ... ... If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection as regards evil, unskillful thoughts, he should reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.soma.html >T: Can you deny that clear precedence? ........... T: Please forgive my short question and let me have another chance to explain what the message #75589 was trying to ask you to clarify, concerning your interpretation of MN 20 (Vitakkasanthana Sutta, not MN 2. Sorry for the wrong code MN 2 that appeared in the previous post.). In this MN 20 sutta the Buddha taught his monks the five ways (same as 5 'methods', 5 'practices', or 5 'instructions') to deal with arisen akusala vitakkas. These five ways are as follows (the words in quote are Soma Thera's, not mine): 1."When evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire, hate, and delusion arise in a bhikkhu through reflection on an adventitious object, he should, (in order to get rid of that), reflect on a different object which is connected with skill. ... By their elimination the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within." T: If that first method failed to work, the Buddha then gave the second one as follows. (It should be clear that 1 precedes 2.) 2. "If the evil unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu, who in order to get rid of an adventitious object reflects on a different object which is connected with skill, he should ponder on the disadvantages of unskillful thoughts thus: Truly these thoughts of mine are unskillful, blameworthy, and productive of misery." T: So, method 2 is conditional on method 1. If this second method failed to work again, the Buddha then gave the third one as follows. (It should be clear that 2 precedes 3.) 3. "If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu who ponders on their disadvantageousness, he should in regard to them, endeavor to be without attention and reflection." T: If this third method failed to work again, the Buddha then gave the fourth one as follows. (It should be clear that 3 precedes 4.) 4."If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection as regards evil, unskillful thoughts, he should reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts." T: If this fourth method failed to work again, the Buddha then gave the fifth one as follows. 5. "If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his reflection on the removal of a source of unskillful thoughts, he should with clenched teeth and the tongue pressing on the palate, restrain, subdue and beat down the (evil) mind by the (good) mind." T: So you may see, according to the Buddha, if 1 has failed then use 2; if 2 has failed then use 3; if 3 has failed then use 4; if 4 has failed then use 5. The last one is the very powerful struggle to keep the mind above the strong stream of akusala vitakkaa. This 5-step procedure is for a non-ariyan monk to follow, and it is sequential and inter-related. Of course, sometimes the monk may be able to eliminate the akusala vitakka by the end of method 2, or 3, or 4, so that he doesn't have to use the drastic "mind control" of method 5. Of course you can imagine other possible combinations of these 5 methods, but the sutta does not suggest, for example, that 3 is tried first then 2, if 3 fails. The sutta says that 2 precedes 3, and 3 precedes 4 -- not the other way around, or in any random manner. I hope my explanation is now clear about what my question was meant to say. >T: Can you deny that clear precedence? Now let me reply to your message. > N: (#77593) > Dear Tep, > I translated the entire co to this sutta and I find the texts most > helpful. It was posted here, but I shall quote parts. I found that > satipatthana was implied all the time. Take the word reflect that I > discussed with Scott: not just thinking. More than that. > > Op 27-aug-2007, om 18:13 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > ... If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu > > who ponders on their disadvantageousness, he should in regard to > >them, endeavor to be without attention and reflection. Then the > >evil unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. .. > ------- > The Co explains, when unwholesome thinking is accompanied by > attachment, the different object (nimitta) he should pay attention to is foulness, asubha. And when there is attachment to things, such as robes, he should reflect on the impermanence of things. When thinking with aversion arises towards living beings he should develop metta, loving kindness. When thinking with aversion arises towards things he should pay attention to elements. >When thinking with delusion arises the bhikkhu should depend on five dhammas. T: What "five dhammas" and how should he depend on them? Let me guess. If you mean the five "methods" in MN 20, then how can the Bhikkhu depend on them in a non-sequential manner? Or, how can all five come together in one moment? I am confused. .............. >N: The Co. then gives further explanations. First the Co explains about foulness. When someone finds a hand or a leg of someone else > beautiful he should develop the idea of the foulness of the body. To what is he attached? To hairs of the head, hairs of the body, to > urine (the last mentioned of the thirtytwo parts of the body)? The Co mentions that the body has three hundred bones (see Vis. VIII, 101), bound by ninehundred sinews. What is unclean goes out by nine doors and ninetynine thousand pores, and it has a stench like a corpse. It is ugly and foul. When he develops the meditation on the thirty two parts of the body he will not find anything excellent in the body. In this way he can abandon lust that arises for living beings. If attachment to things such as bowl or robe arises, he should consider the fact that they have no owner and that they are not lasting, just as is stated in the explanation of Satipatthåna. T: Is the above kayagatasati bhavana equivalent to the method 1 in MN 20, or all five methods? Or is the above development not directly comparable to the five methods in MN 20? ............. > N: Things such as bowl or robes are mere rupa dhammas that arise and fall away, they are impermanent and do not belong to anyone. The > bhikkhu has to develop satipatthana all the time. > The Co states that when he has anger towards living beings he should develop metta, as he can learn from the suttas, such as the Discourse on the Parable of the Saw (M.N. I, no 21). In that way he can abandon anger, and then metta is an object different from the object of aversion. > When he has aversion towards things, when he knocks a table, a thorn, a sharp and pointed leaf, then he should consider the elements in this way: with whom are you angry? With the element of earth, of water etc.? Then he will abandon anger. > N: By the development of vipassana he realizes that there are nama > elements and rupa elements. What appears through touch is only > hardness, temperature or motion. > ** T: All of the above "developments" are from DN 22. Of course, they work ! However they are not the same as the five methods in MN 20. If you think they are the same, could you please explain why they are the same? ......... > N: > Co: Sutta: > If evil, unskillful thoughts continue to arise in a bhikkhu in spite of his endeavor to be without attention and reflection as regards evil, unskillful thoughts, he should reflect on the removal of the (thought) source of those unskillful thoughts. Then the evil, unskillful thoughts are eliminated; they disappear. By their elimination, the mind stands firm, settles down, becomes unified and concentrated, just within (his subject of meditation). > **** > The Commentary explains how he should reflect on the source of his > unwholesome thoughts. He should understand their conditions and > causes. The term sa.nkhaara is used, meaning here: the condition and cause, or the root. > The Buddha said that the bhikkhu should realize the conditions for > his thoughts. He should find out and consider what the cause is of > his thoughts and what not; he should consider what the root and what the condition is of such thought, and why it arises. > N: The bhikkhu should not merely think about this, but he should > directly understand conditions. He should have a thorough > understanding of the Dependent Origination. So long as he has not > eradicated ignorance there are conditions for akusala cittas. > **** > > Through satipatthana one will have more understanding of D.O. Only > conditioned phenomena, no experiencer, no on involved. > ------ T: It is fine that the bhikkhu should do other things as suggested above by the Co and Nina. But these things together are much broader than the domain of the discourse MN 20. Every Buddha's discourse has a specific domain that the Buddha taught to a certain group of monks at a certain time. In my opinion MN 20 is not a discourse on Satipatthana. DN 22 has a large collection of methods (including kayagatasati). I do not believe that all these methods in DN 22 can ever be practiced at the same time -- in a single moment, so to speak. It would be very interesting if you could show me how they (the four frames of reference) can be practiced simultaneously ! .......... >N: I think there can be wise reflection alternated with satipatthana, and also reflecting can be realized as non-self. T: That is another separate issue, Nina. You are very ambitious!! Tep === #75599 From: "nidive" Date: Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:47 pm Subject: Re: satipatthana as island of refuge nidive Hi Howard (& Jon), > 1) Hearing is an act of consciousness, and I am unaware of any basis > for assuming that such has been developed by computer engineers, It's impossible to develop robotics consciousness, isn't it? > 2) Music and conversations, as such, are mind-door phenomena, not > ear-door phenomena. While I literally hear sounds, I cognize music & > conversations and only figuratively hear them. I would like you to consider a passage from DN 22: -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.22.0.than.html "And what is endearing & alluring in terms of the world? The eye is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells. "The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect... "Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas... "Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect- consciousness... "Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body- contact... Intellect-contact... "Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact... "Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas... "Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas... "Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas... "Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas... "Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells. -------------------------------------------------------------------- In your knowledge & experience, do you have intention & craving for audible data that lasts for a split second? You can try playing a piece of music or a piece of conversation and pressing the pause button repeatedly on & off. Do you think what the Buddha taught here in DN 22 is figurative or literal? Swee Boon