#76600 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Hi Ken, you wrote: 'Ah, if only this were possible! Anyone who slandered the Buddha could be bound and gagged and locked away where they couldn't do any harm. :-) And how does a person slander the Buddha? By saying his teaching was banal, commonplace and easy to understand. By saying that anatta was not meant to be taken seriously. The list goes on. ' I think you will understand my point when you read my message to Sukinder. with Metta Dieter #76601 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Threefold Training , part 2. buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Swee Boon, I guess??), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James (and Swee boon), > continuation of the quotes: > Vis.8: Herein there is nothing for him to do about the [native] > understanding on account of which he is called wise; for that has > been established in him simply by the influence of previous kamma. Thanks for your two posts in response. However, I got somewhat lost in trying to discover the point you are trying to make. I read the passages proceeding and following the quote I provided and I don't see them as contradicting that passage or even presenting it in an entirely new light. To paraphrase, Buddhaghosa writes that sometimes the path is described in individual ways as Virtue, Concentration, and Understanding. However, he concludes, the true path of purification contains all three. He then goes one to state that Virtue, Concentration, and Understanding are sequential in the path by using the words: First, Middle, Last. This is stated very clearly. He then provides further analysis where this sequential development is seen in the paths and fruits of enlightenment: Sream- entry, Once-return, non-return, arahantship. The Threefold Training is sequential. First one develops virtue as to have non-remorse, then one develops concentration to make the mind a fit instrument for investigation of dhammas, and finally one develops understanding from that investigation. It is simple, direct, and easy to understand. The threefold training is sequential and Buddhaghosa very clearly states so and the entire book of The Path of Purification is organized around this basic premise. Metta, James ps. Did I miss a post by Swee Boon in this thread? I am having a hard time keeping up. ;-)) #76602 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Hi Tep (and All), you wrote: 'Members who disrespect and degrade well-known dhamma teachers are everywhere, Dieter. I think we are outnumbered. Help!' D: Maybe outnumbered but not 'outsmarted' I think .. :-) T: Ken, does the not-taking-anatta-seriously include proclaiming that the whole world is empty of people and the Gotama Buddha is just a "concept"? D: as that includes empty of Ken , we can't be of help, can we? As I see it , some of our friends fail up to now to present a fair understanding of the issues ' concept ' and 'reality', though I doubt that anybody of them would deny the historical Buddha. We talked about classical and modern atom physics before..likewise if the latter becomes the solely home without having reached the level of an advanced Noble One, an ivory tower of mind is established making the communication very difficult. So far I assume that the Abhidhamma aimed to be a kind of manual for those close to the level of Ven.Sariputta ( and the legend speaks for that) and that the benefit of this teaching is missed when the context with the conventional teaching is lost. with Metta Dieter #76603 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 15, no 3. nilovg Hi Howard, Good to see you back. I was just about to write to you, wondering whether you were sick. You raise many interesting points and I try my best to answer. Op 21-sep-2007, om 15:54 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It seems to me that there is one (perfectly) right path but an > unlimited > number of paths that are wrong in some respects or other. I think > it is off > the mark to speak of "the" wrong path. The "wrong paths" range from > extremely > destructive ones to ones quite helpful, but they are all "wrong" in > the > sense of being less than perfect. If nothing will ever suffice for > the time being > except the perfect path, we will never get to that perfect path. > What is > essential is to never be satisfied with the status quo, for such > satisfaction is > the end of progress. > ----------------------------------------------------- > N: I would say, in a conventional sense there are many wrong paths. > But here my point is dealing specifically with the path factors of > the wrong Path and those of the right Path that are Path-condition, > one of te 24 classes of conditions. For these factors I follow the > Tipitaka, suttanta included. ---------- > N: ...Someone may take wrong effort for right effort and wrong > concentration for right concentration. He may for example try very > hard to focus on a particular object such as breath without right > understanding of what breath is: a rúpa conditioned by citta. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Seeing what the breath actually is is not an initial given, and > without > "looking" at the breath itself, it never will be given. As for the > breath > being a rupa, I believe that is incorrect. The breath is a complex > of rupas > known via conceptualization. ------- N: I see this differently. My way of looking at it is: what dhamma we call breath is appearing now? Through which doorway? Through the body- door (tip of nose, or upperlip) can appear the ruupa that is hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, oscillation. These are characteristics of ruupa that can appear one at a time. ----------- > H: When attention is turned towards that complex > (vitakka) and remains with it (vicara), it is possible, with > practice, to come to > see through the breath concept to the multiplicity of rupas > underlying it. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: Only one characteristic appears at a time, not a complex. I know > you made an extensive study of the Anapanasati sutta and co. and > you also studied the Visuddhimagga on this subject. You studied > what is said on the tetrads in the Visuddhimagga. -------- > N: He may > believe that he can develop calm with concentration on breath but he > does not realize when there is desire for result instead of kusala > citta with calm. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > One *can* develop calm by attending to the breath, and the Buddha > taught > that. I would avoid speaking of concentration, though, in this regard, > because it suggests a degree intensity of focus that is not, in > fact, conducive to > calm. Meditation is a process of easy, peaceful attention, and calm > but > persistent monitoring of that attention. > ------------------------------------------------------- N: It can be done but the ruupa that we call breath is very subtle, and it is originated from citta, not by another factor such as temperature. Good for those who can do it. ----------- > N: Or someone may think that he should try to > concentrate on rúpas of the body and that he in that way can > experience the arising and falling away of realities. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Attending to bodily sensations was also taught by the Buddha, and > it is > very useful. A good reference in this regard is MN 119, the > Kayagatasati > Sutta. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > N: How could I deny this! But only pa~n~naa developed through the > stages of insight can realize the arising and falling away of dhammas. ------- > N:The development > of the eigthfold Path is the development of right understanding of > any reality which appears because of conditions. If someone selects > particular realities as objects of awareness or if he tries to apply > himself to certain techniques in order to hasten the development of > insight he is on the wrong path. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The Buddha taught mindfulness of the body, and most especially of the > breath. He did not only teach choiceless awareness without an > initial anchor. > ----- N: I would say the Buddha taught satipatthana as the way to be mindful of whatever reality appears because of conditions. If there are conditions for breath as object, it will be breath. The most important thing is not to be led by an idea of . Nina. #76604 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ¡person¢" - "The controversy on ¡person¢ is ended" dcwijeratna Dear Sarah, >S: You mean you don't accept Sariputta's word in the Patisambhidamagga? ??? DC: This question is too general to be answered. If you send me the exact reference I can give my comments. ======== >S: I agree that usually the detailed descriptions of the Buddha's knowledge are given in commentaries and the Abhidhamma. But do you seriously have any doubt about it? DC: The question in the present form cannot be answered. But I'll make a few remarks. Commentaries are not part of the accepted Tipitaka and of later origin. I don't think you are going to accept everything, for example, in Jataka.t.thakathaa. Abhidhamma also started as an attempt to explain the Dhamma. It seems to have reached completion by the 3rd Council. So Abhidhama texts are also of later origin. But the real issue is there are three Abhidhamma pi.takas. Theravaada, Sarvastivaada, Saariputra Abhidharma Saasstra (This is available only in Chinese translations--Encyclopaedia of Buddhism) and their contents are different. That alone is a sufficient reason not to trust anyone of them without examination. In the Mahaaparinibbaana sutta, the Buddha gave four guidelines to determine whether any text is the Buddha-word (the mahaapadesas). It is possible to apply this test, if the exact text or the passage is given. >S: Here, we have the Buddha's actual words from AN: AN bk of 4s, (PTS translations) 23 'The World': "Monks, whatsoever in the whole world, with the world of Maaras, Brahmaas, together with the host of recluses and braahmins, of devas and mankind, is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, searched into, pondered over by the mind, - all that is fully comprehended by a Tathaagata. That is why he is called 'Tathaagata. '........ ....a Tathaagata is conqueror, unconquered, all-seeing, omnipotent. Therefore is he called 'Tathaagata. ' " The next one - 24, 'Kaa.laka.'- has this same passage. DC: Here is an alternative translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi of the above passage: "Monks, in the whole world...Tathaagata is the conqueror, unconquered, one who sees-at-will, the wielder of power. Therefore he is called the Tathaagata." [Numerical Discourses of the Buddha, Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi, p. 83] You'll see that PTS "alle-seeing" has become "one who sees-at-will", and "omnipotent" has become "wielder of power" in the above translation. What I want to concentrate on is the word "world". I am sure, you have heard of the description "this fathom long body" as the world. The world in the present context refers to First Noble Truth--Dukkha, and the famous words ", collectively the five aggregates of grasping is dukkha (Sa.nkhittena pancuppaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa). So the above sutta does not appear to me to give any of the ideas in PTS translation. One point, if you read the whole sutta, you'll see that it starts with Awakening of the Buddha--complete realisation of the Four Noble by higher-knowing (abhi~n~naaya). Everything else in the sutta is related to this and to the term "tathaagata". The Bodhisatta was a human being, and the Buddha does not belong to the category of being as he had no lobha, dosa, and moha. Here is a nice gaathaa from sutta nipaata. "namo te purisaaj~n~na, namo te purisuttama, sadevakasmi.m lokasmi.m Natthi te pa.tipuggalo" ======== Thanks for the stiulating discussion. Metta, DC ========= #76605 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 15, no 3. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 9/21/2007 2:53:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Good to see you back. I was just about to write to you, wondering whether you were sick. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! :-) No, I'm fine. I've been very busy with a number of activities, including the Jewish high holidays (tonight & tomorrow is the Day of Atonement (Buddhist "at-one-ment"? LOL!) and being increasingly active in an interfaith organization to help homeless families. --------------------------------------------------- You raise many interesting points and I try my best to answer. Op 21-sep-2007, om 15:54 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It seems to me that there is one (perfectly) right path but an > unlimited > number of paths that are wrong in some respects or other. I think > it is off > the mark to speak of "the" wrong path. The "wrong paths" range from > extremely > destructive ones to ones quite helpful, but they are all "wrong" in > the > sense of being less than perfect. If nothing will ever suffice for > the time being > except the perfect path, we will never get to that perfect path. > What is > essential is to never be satisfied with the status quo, for such > satisfaction is > the end of progress. > ----------------------------------------------------- > N: I would say, in a conventional sense there are many wrong paths. > But here my point is dealing specifically with the path factors of > the wrong Path and those of the right Path that are Path-condition, > one of te 24 classes of conditions. For these factors I follow the > Tipitaka, suttanta included. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: There are many ways to fall short of or to pervert any path factor, it seems to me. --------------------------------------------------- ---------- > N: ...Someone may take wrong effort for right effort and wrong > concentration for right concentration. He may for example try very > hard to focus on a particular object such as breath without right > understanding of what breath is: a rúpa conditioned by citta. > -------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Seeing what the breath actually is is not an initial given, and > without > "looking" at the breath itself, it never will be given. As for the > breath > being a rupa, I believe that is incorrect. The breath is a complex > of rupas > known via conceptualization. ------- N: I see this differently. My way of looking at it is: what dhamma we call breath is appearing now? Through which doorway? Through the body- door (tip of nose, or upperlip) can appear the ruupa that is hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, oscillation. These are characteristics of ruupa that can appear one at a time. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I disagree with that, Nina. Warmth can be felt as part of breath but also as part of many other conventional things. Not all occurrences of earth or air or fire or water or bodily sensations are breath. What we call breath is a particular sort of aggregate of rupas, occurring interrelatedly through time. The warmth felt when taking a hot bath, for example, is not "breath". Breath is a specific sort of aggregate - it is a concept. ----------------------------------------------------- ----------- > H: When attention is turned towards that complex > (vitakka) and remains with it (vicara), it is possible, with > practice, to come to > see through the breath concept to the multiplicity of rupas > underlying it. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: Only one characteristic appears at a time, not a complex. I know > you made an extensive study of the Anapanasati sutta and co. and > you also studied the Visuddhimagga on this subject. You studied > what is said on the tetrads in the Visuddhimagga. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, only one at a time is experienced. The experienced breath is a sequence of single phenomena. ------------------------------------------------------ -------- > N: He may > believe that he can develop calm with concentration on breath but he > does not realize when there is desire for result instead of kusala > citta with calm. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > One *can* develop calm by attending to the breath, and the Buddha > taught > that. I would avoid speaking of concentration, though, in this regard, > because it suggests a degree intensity of focus that is not, in > fact, conducive to > calm. Meditation is a process of easy, peaceful attention, and calm > but > persistent monitoring of that attention. > ------------------------------------------------------- N: It can be done but the ruupa that we call breath is very subtle, and it is originated from citta, not by another factor such as temperature. Good for those who can do it. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I know of no single rupa called "breath". Is that a rupa listed in the Dhammasangani? ------------------------------------------------------- ----------- > N: Or someone may think that he should try to > concentrate on rúpas of the body and that he in that way can > experience the arising and falling away of realities. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Attending to bodily sensations was also taught by the Buddha, and > it is > very useful. A good reference in this regard is MN 119, the > Kayagatasati > Sutta. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > N: How could I deny this! But only pa~n~naa developed through the > stages of insight can realize the arising and falling away of dhammas. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: And it seems that you expect such pa~n~na to be cultivated by means of reading, thinking, and talking. I think that is a pipe dream. -------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > N:The development > of the eigthfold Path is the development of right understanding of > any reality which appears because of conditions. If someone selects > particular realities as objects of awareness or if he tries to apply > himself to certain techniques in order to hasten the development of > insight he is on the wrong path. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The Buddha taught mindfulness of the body, and most especially of the > breath. He did not only teach choiceless awareness without an > initial anchor. > ----- N: I would say the Buddha taught satipatthana as the way to be mindful of whatever reality appears because of conditions. If there are conditions for breath as object, it will be breath. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: From MN 118: "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore._1_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html#n-1) Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'_2_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html#n-2) He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'_3_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html#n-3) He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming the bodily fabrication.' "[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'_4_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html#n-4) He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.' "[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind. [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'_5_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html#n-5) "[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.' "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- The most important thing is not to be led by an idea of . ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: None of us is free of that until awakening. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Nina. ================================ With metta, Howard #76606 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:23 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (16) indriyabala Hi Sarah and Han, - Once I wondered if there ever was a super bookworm with the brain of an elephant. Today I wonder no more since I have found such a bookworm. Sarah: In the Tiika (transl. by Soma Thera) in the same section above about >"saraagam vaa cittam saraagam cittanti pajaanaati." To know mind affected by lust as mind affected by lust."<, we read: "In the consciousness with lust, lust occurs as a mental concomitant arising and passing along with a conscious state and sharing with that conscious state the object and basis of consciousness. In this sense of a conscious state well-knit with lust one speaks of 'the consciousness with lust'." S: So at this very moment if such a citta (consciousness) 'appears' (i.e is the object of sati and pa~n~naa), it is known, wouldn't you both agree? T: No, I respectfully do not totally agree. You mean stream of cittas, don't you? Obviously 'citta' in the Pali text above is not a single consciousness, because it takes time for an ordinary person to be aware of an arisen-and-passed-away lust. Similarly, anger and the associated consciousness arise and fall away, but not immediately. That's why one can contemplate/be aware of the mind with anger from the beginning till the moment of cessation in an interval of less than one minute to x minutes later. Tep === #76607 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:46 pm Subject: Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views indriyabala Hi Kenneth Elder, - I enjoyed the beautiful writing of yours except when you talked about 'no self'. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Elder wrote: > > Ultimate answers to ultimate questions often come in > the form of paradox whether in religion or science. > Subatomic particles have both a particle and a wave > aspect; this shows that there is both form and > formless aspects to material phenomena. All boundaries > are fuzzy with no absolute boundary, just a gradation > of change in a conditioned polarity. It is interesting > that the Western Mystics who favored the eternal > individual soul view before modern relativity and > quantum physics pointed to the supposedly indivisible > atom as proof of an eternal "divine monad" of > individuality. It seems a contradiction to logic when > Buddha taught the no-self doctrine yet talked of > rebirth through myriads of lifetimes, but in truth > this is the deepest paradox. The deepest nature of > that which is Timeless and Boundless is beyond logic, > is paradoxical. The inventor-philosopher Buckminister > Fuller in his book Intuition said, "Nouns are illusion > only verbs are real, all is process." It is a mental > process that continues from life to life not some > unchanging single self. Telepathy (the ability most > proven by scientific research) shows that there is no > absolute boundary between minds, this fits well with > the no-self doctrine. Buddha gave a metaphor for > rebirth in a Sutta of a tree producing a seed and that > seed growing into a new tree. T: My understanding of a "paradox" is that it a fuzzy set of uncertain states; once the states are known completely through experience, the fuzziness will disappear. Lacking the true knowledge (yathabhuta-dassana), people formulate their (wrong) views about the nature. The Buddha: "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt, that just stress arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html Ken E : I suggest those resistant to the no-self doctrine to listen to the Beatles song I Me Mine to help them get over themselves at the emotional level. One more paradox, it only by going within ourselves in meditation that we find that there is no self. T: What do you think is the meaning (or meanings) of the 'self' in the 'no self doctrine'? I would appreciate your elaboration if you could. Tep === #76608 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:49 pm Subject: Re: "there is no �person�Equot; - "The controversy on �person�Eis ended" kenhowardau Hi Scott, -------------- <. . .> S: > The thinking itself has its own quality which can be known and this is not really related to the content or object of thinking. -------------- Yes, some of us (Howard, for example) like to define nama, in general, as the experiencing of an object. (I do too, but I am happy to also define it as the 'experiencer.') In the same way we can regard the namas that think as the thinking. When we say we can know thinking we simply mean we can know the namas that think. --------------------- K: "(Just to confuse matters we sometimes use the word 'thinking' to refer to thoughts.)" Scott: Would it be fair to say that a distinction can be made such that by 'thinking' one refers to the reality and by 'thoughts' one refers to the concepts or, in other words, the object of this reality? --------------------- Yes, that's the way I see it. ----------------------------- K: "It's a tricky business, isn't it? We can say that wholesome namas perform wholesome functions and unwholesome namas perform unwholesome functions. Therefore, we can say there is wholesome thinking and there is unwholesome thinking. When the namas that think are accompanied by alobha, adosa and other wholesome namas, they too are wholesome, and so is their thinking." Scott: I guess that whether the thought is kusala or akusala is simply a function of the nature of citta - whether it is kusala or akusala - of which a given thought is object. ----------------------------- Yes, the cetasikas that think take their lead from the citta. Some time ago, Dan (I think it was) posted a detailed definition of viriya (effort). It sounded very worthy and commendable until the end where it turned out to be a definition of wrong effort- not right effort.(!) The two are hard to tell apart unless you know the citta. I might leave the rest of your post (and some others I want to respond to) until Monday. We have a houseful of guests for the weekend. Ken H #76609 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:22 pm Subject: Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? indriyabala Dear Sarah and all, - I am glad that Howard has told everyone that my questions are never meant to be harmful to anyone. So, from now I can ask even tougher questions ! {;>) S: The following is from the introduction by Bimala Charan Law to his translation of the Puggala Pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma text. I think it's relevant: "The title consists of two words: puggala and pa~n~natti. The word 'puggala' means an individual or a person, as opposed to a multitude or class, a creature, a being, a man (Childer's Paali Dictionary). Buddhism distinguishes altogether twelve classes of intelligent beings or puggala -viz., four of the average ordinary class (puthujjanaa) and eight of the elect class (ariyaa). "According to the Buddhists, the individual has no real existence. The term 'puggala' does not mean anything real. It is only sammutisacca (apparent truth) as opposed to paramatthasacca (real truth). "Just as it is by the condition precedent of the co-existence of its various parts that the word 'chariot' is used, just so is it that when the khandhas are there, we talk of a 'being' " (The Questions of King Milinda, S.B.E., vol xxxv., p, 45, quoting Samyutta I, 135)." T: I have a serious problem from the very start. Either my skull is so thick that there is no room inside for an intelligent brain, or the man who gave the above comment ("the individual has no real existence") must have a thick skull himself. ;-)) My problem is I do not understand why the original writer of the Abhidhamma text, Puggala Pa~n~natti, found it necessary to expound on the "twelve classes of intelligent beings or puggala" IF they had no real existence. Why wasting time talking about non-existence? A 12-ghost story? ............... S: We can then read the entire text of "Puggala-pa~n~nati" with a)an understanding that all the references to people are designations or sammutisacca, pointing to various combinations of cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or b) with an understanding, like the Puggalavaadins, that in each example, 'the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact.....'. T: Does the above remark indicate your softened stance that allows the twelve kinds of "person" to also be real, i.e. having real existence ? Tep === #76610 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:49 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi Sarah, - I admire your clever handling (managing) of this unique group of diverse personalities. S: I know you've cleared all this up now, but wish to add that these two 'unfamiliar words' are the name of a well-known Buddhist monk, Pali scholar, writer and translator, Ven Saddhatissa from Sri Lanka. He died a few years ago, but I knew him quite well in London. So not so long ago, when James mentioned here that he'd come across the booklet and thought it was a useful one for beginners, I encouraged him to share it as it's not on line. You must have understandably missed our little exhange about this. T: Yes, I did. ................. S: Why don't you share your comments on Ven Saddhatissa's article. Do you agree with it so far? Would you add extra sutta quotes or comments? If so what? Remember it's being addressed to beginners, maybe to Westerners who are unfamiliar with many of the basic Buddhist concepts you grew up with. T: I trust that James alone can comfortably comment and provide additional materials for his audience without any question. S: We have some very deep and detailed series running here, such as the Vism corner, so for some new to the list, this series with few Pali terms may be a refreshing change. What do you think? T: The Vism already has a lot of Pali terms. I am interested in the series, but am not sure what contribution I can make for the series that is already running smoothly. Tep === #76611 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:33 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi Dieter (and others), - Thank you for continuing the funny conversation on the serious subject. It does not seem possible that anyone can outsmart you, Dieter. But being smart also means you don't use handcuffs unless it is absolutely necessary. :-)) D: As I see it , some of our friends fail up to now to present a fair understanding of the issues ' concept ' and 'reality', though I doubt that anybody of them would deny the historical Buddha. We talked about classical and modern atom physics before..likewise if the latter becomes the solely home without having reached the level of an advanced Noble One, an ivory tower of mind is established making the communication very difficult. T: Perhaps we should change the tactic. Do you think the communication may be easier if we start from a subject matter that both sides accept? D: So far I assume that the Abhidhamma aimed to be a kind of manual for those close to the level of Ven.Sariputta ( and the legend speaks for that) and that the benefit of this teaching is missed when the context with the conventional teaching is lost. T: That's a very good point, Dieter. You must keep hammering on that point often. The Abhidhamma legend shows that the Buddha taught the Abhidhamma only to the extremely-intelligent arahant Sariputta, not to any other arahants (even the arahant Moggallana) or lower ariya- puggalas. Besides, the Chief Disciple Sariputta never used the Abhidhamma to educate any monks he supervised. Why? So you are right, the conventional teaching comes first. You may say that again. Tep === #76612 From: han tun Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Siila hantun1 Dear Sarah, > > Han: What I fear is if people do not observe siila (not only Buddhists, but also other religions according to their own moral teachings) there may be kamma vipaaka in the form of more crime, violence and stressful situations, which in turn will make difficult for people to observe their moral virtues. It will then be like a vicious circle. > S: What you are talking about is the vicious cycle of dependent origination, of samsara - vipaka vatta, kilesa vatta and kamma vatta. This is why an understanding of siila, an understanding of kamma and an understanding of vipaaka is so important. When we appreciate that the real difficulties in life are caused by the unwholesome accumulations rather than the situation, I think it helps a lot. -------------------- Han: You are right to say that what I was talking about is the vicious cycle of dependent origination, of samsara - vipaka vatta, kilesa vatta and kamma vatta. While on the subject of dependent origination, as you know, the dependent origination can be understood in three periods (kaala). Past: avijjaa, sankhaara Present: vi~n~naana, naama-ruupa, salaaayatana, phassa, vedanaaa, tanhaa, upaadaana, kamma-bhava Future: jaati, jaraa-marana. Because of this three-period mode, some Burmese jokingly say that, “you do whatever you like in this life, your bad effects will be born by the other fellow in next life.” However, some Burmese believe that one’s kamma will ripen and bear fruits in this very life. This belief is strengthened by another belief that Buddha saasanaa will last only 5000 years, and the decline will start from the mid-point (we have passed the mid-point by 50 years), and that from that mid-point onwards, the Sakka, the king of devas, will protect the Buddha saasanaa on behalf of the Buddha. Now, this Sakka will be less merciful than the Buddha, and he will hand out the punishments to bad people in this very life. Those believers called this period, “Sakka saasanaa.” For those who do not believe in “Sakka saasanaa” it is alright, no harm done. But for those who believe in it, they will be more careful and will observe siila more carefully, so that they will not be punished in this very life! Before WWII, a famous Burmese movie actor and singer, U Khin Maung Yin, even sang a song composed about this “sakka saasanaa.” This is just food for your thought. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, > S: What you are talking about is the vicious cycle > of dependent > origination, of samsara - vipaka vatta, kilesa vatta > and kamma vatta. #76613 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:36 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > the Chief Disciple Sariputta never used the > Abhidhamma to educate any monks he supervised. Why? > >______ Dear Tep, What are your reasons for doubting the commentaries accounts of this. Sariputta's 500 students all became arahats after listneing to him recite the Abhidhamma . As Sitagu sayadaw explains: http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm ""The Abhidhamma which the Venerable Sariputta heard in brief from the Buddha he preached to his five hundred disciples in a way that was neither brief nor extended. The monks who learned the Abhidhamma from the Venerable Sariputta were newly ordained, having entered the Order on the day the Buddha ascended to Tavatimsa heaven. These five hundred sons-of good-family took ordination at that time - the full moon day of 'Waso' - because they were inspired to faith by a display of miracles performed at the foot of a white mango tree. On the following day, they listened to the Abhidhamma; and it was this Abhidhamma which became for those monks their Vipassana. And why was this? Those five hundred monks, all of whom became arahants during the rains-retreat of that year (the seventh rains-retreat of the Buddha), also became by the end of the retreat, masters of the seven books of the Abhidhamma (abhidhammika sattapakaranika)." Robert #76614 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:46 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (16) scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Forgive me, good Tep, I can't help myself (incredulity-mind has arisen and is taking an interval of from less than one minute to x minutes to cease and I can't wait...): T: "No, I respectfully do not totally agree. You mean stream of cittas, don't you? Obviously 'citta' in the Pali text above is not a single consciousness, because it takes time for an ordinary person to be aware of an arisen-and-passed-away lust. Similarly, anger and the associated consciousness arise and fall away, but not immediately. That's why one can contemplate/be aware of the mind with anger from the beginning till the moment of cessation in an interval of less than one minute to x minutes later." Scott: Without the tempering of Abhidhamma precision, views such as the above can flourish. Since Abhidhamma is NOT meant only for Devas and Arahats, I suggest you begin lessons immediately! Sincerely, Scott. #76615 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 rjkjp1 Dear Dieter Yes, quite right. The World fellowship of Buddhists also were very angry because of what Nyanaponika Mahathera said about Acharn Mun. This is the letter published at the front of the WFB magazine (from the edictor) "To Ven. Nyanaponika mahathera, Forest Hermitage, Kandy I have received your letter dated december 1975 strongly criticising the biography of the venerable meditation master phra acharn Mun Bhuridatto. It did not come as surprise that the English version should be no less controversial than its Thai counterpart.. [it was] strongly criticised by a number or readers who could not tolerate what was contradictory to their former belief. Some of them I dare say did so out of sheer jealousy and to flatter their own egotism and vanity rather than out of genuine doubt. To such people no amount of reasoning or explanation will help. They are not seekers after Truth but are like Sanjaya and the six teachers (makkhali Gosala and others), and cannot bear to see others stand out more prominent than they do. AS far as your letter is concerned I would say that your viewpoints expressed therin are, to say the least, too strong and intolerant. <.....> I do not understand why so many Buddhists prefer to idolize the concept of Absolute Nothingness or Total Loss like that of the materialists and attribute it to teh cessation of suffering or Nibbana. What benefit is there in clinging to the nihilist idea of nothingness, hoplessness or bleakness like that? To be well versed in the Tipitaka is never enough. That is only pariyatti, which could become a hindrance and even a snake killing whoever makes a religion or God of it. This attitude towards book- learning, unsupported by firsthand experience through practice, is called agaladdupara pariyatti. It can be another Net of Wrong View. The pariyatti or book learning may earn the students such grandiose terms as Maha, pandita etc, yet it is memory work, speculation, imgination, anything but firsthand experience or attainment. Such being the case who is in a position to misinterpret the Buddha's word. Those admirers[of book study] will have to face the dilemma and admit the incompleteness of such book-study and the delusion of high-sounding titles such as Maha, pandita ect." <....>Nibbana, unlike the materialists death, does not end all. If acceptance of this fact should bring the Theravadins a bit closer to the Mahayanists then it is to be willingly accepted. After all it is better than a concept that brings us closer to the materialists isnt it."end letter. It certainly worked on the venerable Nynaopnika as he never wrote for the WFB magazine again. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Sukinder and All, > > you wrote: > > (D:let me suggest a special task: to request members , who speak with disrespect, degrading wellknown dhamma teachers , to prove their point or otherwise 'handcuffing them' by reason of wrong speech. What do you think ? ;-) ) > > :-) ...... #76616 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Sarah) - In a message dated 9/21/2007 7:22:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, indriyabala@... writes: Dear Sarah and all, - I am glad that Howard has told everyone that my questions are never meant to be harmful to anyone. So, from now I can ask even tougher questions ! {;>) ------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) ----------------------------------------- S: The following is from the introduction by Bimala Charan Law to his translation of the Puggala Pa~n~natti, the Abhidhamma text. I think it's relevant: "The title consists of two words: puggala and pa~n~natti. The word 'puggala' means an individual or a person, as opposed to a multitude or class, a creature, a being, a man (Childer's Paali Dictionary). Buddhism distinguishes altogether twelve classes of intelligent beings or puggala -viz., four of the average ordinary class (puthujjanaa) and eight of the elect class (ariyaa). "According to the Buddhists, the individual has no real existence. The term 'puggala' does not mean anything real. It is only sammutisacca (apparent truth) as opposed to paramatthasacca (real truth). "Just as it is by the condition precedent of the co-existence of its various parts that the word 'chariot' is used, just so is it that when the khandhas are there, we talk of a 'being' " (The Questions of King Milinda, S.B.E., vol xxxv., p, 45, quoting Samyutta I, 135)." T: I have a serious problem from the very start. Either my skull is so thick that there is no room inside for an intelligent brain, or the man who gave the above comment ("the individual has no real existence") must have a thick skull himself. ;-)) My problem is I do not understand why the original writer of the Abhidhamma text, Puggala Pa~n~natti, found it necessary to expound on the "twelve classes of intelligent beings or puggala" IF they had no real existence. Why wasting time talking about non-existence? A 12-ghost story? ............... S: We can then read the entire text of "Puggala-pa~n~nati" with a)an understanding that all the references to people are designations or sammutisacca, pointing to various combinations of cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or b) with an understanding, like the Puggalavaadins, that in each example, 'the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact.....'. T: Does the above remark indicate your softened stance that allows the twelve kinds of "person" to also be real, i.e. having real existence ? Tep =================================== A conventional analogy, Tep: There are rainbows, right? They exist. But do they exist in the same way and with the same "reality" that do light, water vapor, and our eyesight? Are rainbows not less "real" than those other phenomena that constitute their basis? With metta, Howard #76617 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? lbidd2 Hi Howard, Howard: "A conventional analogy, Tep: There are rainbows, right? They exist. But do they exist in the same way and with the same "reality" that do light, water vapor, and our eyesight? Are rainbows not less "real" than those other phenomena that constitute their basis?" Larry: This might better be explained by "own nature" (sabhava). Own nature can be experienced by consciousness, but only one at a time. Dhammas with own nature always arise in groups, but a group has no own nature, so a group can't be experienced as such. Cold and sweet arise together in ice cream. They are only experienced one at a time, but the reality is that they arise together. Our mistake is in not recognizing that each is only a very impermanent part. When there is a pleasant feeling, there is also an eye, an ear, a nose, a tongue, and a body with all its parts. And, incidentally, "rainbow" is "Inda dhanu" in Pali, "Indra's bow". Larry #76618 From: "colette" Date: Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:33 pm Subject: Re: Stop the presses ksheri3 Good Day Scott, A disclaimer should be first written here so that my peers don't get their bloodpressure out of control, that is, if they have control of anything: I have not read the debates concerning Vasubandhu's disagreements with different lineages and with the Hindu or Indian scholars that were not too appreciative of their materials being transported to China. Based on my experience studying the material I've run across references to these occurances, quite frequently and they for the most part seem to have the same tone. With that said... A quick idea of what Vasubandhu was being confronted with in debates: he's putting forth the idea that everything is a product of consciousness, thus "CONSCIOUSNESS-ONLY" School, or Yogacara. As a means of espousing this idea, concept, he applied the doctrine of SUNYATA, emptiness. There is no eternal nature in the things we cling to in this life of suffering, they are empty, without value, SUNYA. It is because we have been conditioned from the moment we stepped out of the womb, to believe in and deal with things as OTHERS HAVE DEFINED THEM FOR US. We had no participation in the manufacture of these things i.e. the sun may just be the moon and therefor the sun is a valueless concept since it is thoroughly possible that the sun was mislabeled, the possibility also exists that the action of mislabeling was a deliberate attempt to mislead and confuse the masses. Ignorance, for some, is bliss. And so, since the mind is the machine which generates the power and potential behind these objects if the mind was to be taken away then the objects would be taken away by means of losing their powers, their ability to persuade and dissuade. there would be no "bling bling" for children to lust for and committ murders or any number of crimes, to obtain the baubles called "bling bling". Here we can say "out of sight out of mind". And so we come to my friend Scott, who said: > Scott: I don't have a clue what Vasubandhu wrote regarding wet dreams. colette: there are numerous schools devoted to a "fixed" reality which is dictated by the unwritten agreement with the masses of those that obey the laws of slavery that the only reality is the reality which is tangible, tactile-consciousness. As part of the tangibility sight, smell, hearing, etc. are all components of that consciousness eventhough we know different. As an argument against these devotees of materialism Vasubandhu applied the consciousness of dreams. Dreams are not real therefore dreams are not reality, CAUSING Vasubandhu to reply that the dream is real and the dream has force to persuade and dissuade simply by obeserving the fact that people do have wet dreams. What could possibly have caused the person to urinate on themselves during their somnambulism if it was not the dream? Enough said, my friend. I've got things to do. If I finish early enough and my roomates are not home I'll get back to you. Thank you. toodles, colette #76619 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:59 am Subject: Universal Friendliness! bhikkhu0 Friends: How to train & expand Universal Friendliness! Sitting alone, in silence, each early morning, with closed eyes one wishes: May I radiate and meet only infinite friendliness, kindness, and goodwill! May I & all the various beings on the 31 levels of existence develop & find only the genuine good of infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings on the sense-desire, fine-material, and the formless plane develop & encounter this fine infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in the front, to the right, the back, the left & below as above develop & experience high infinite friendliness, kindness & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe always be fully aware and deeply mindful of this infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe examine all details & subtle aspects of this sublime infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country & universe put enthusiastic effort into their praxis of infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe find enraptured joy & jubilant gladness in this infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country & universe cultivate the tranquillity of quiet, silent & all stilled infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe attain concentrated & absorbed one-pointedness of infinite friendliness, kindness, & goodwill! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe dwell in undisturbable & imperturbable balance of infinite friendliness, kindness & goodwill! Yeah! (Print this out, dwell in each state until deep, use ~ 25-45 minutes. Comment: Universal Friendliness is the 1st endless state (AppamaññÄ?) This gradually reduces all hate, anger, irritation, resentment, opposition, stubbornness, mental rigidity, & unhappiness related with these states. Release of Mind by Universal Friendliness (MettÄ?-Ceto-Vimutti) is >16 times more worth, than any merit won by whatever worldly gift or gain... Joining with the 7 links to Awakening will later cause formless jhÄ?na... Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <....> #76620 From: "colette" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:14 am Subject: Re: Stop the presses ksheri3 Good Morning Scott, I just wanted to comment on your other paragraph to me. ---------- > c: "If this concept called "thoughts" is not real then how can these > false concepts ACTUALLY CAUSE a person's body to act/react in a > predictable way? If the thoughts are not real then how can thinking be > real?" > > Scott: In this case I think we are dealing with ruupa which is > experienced through the body-sense colette: Sorry friend, this is not even in the same ball park. I am making the case to substantiate the power of thoughts. Since I am not even speaking of anything that is tangible, per se, it then falls into the category of NAMA. The mind, through it's power of "being conditioned" eminates rupa but this is after the fact, an accessory to the karma generating act. If you'd like to carry my thoughts further then we can go to an equation NAMA = RUPA, there is no seperation. I'm working on that though since I can easily see the difficulties I always run into with things like that. -------------------------------------------- and subsequently in the mind-door, > as usual. colette: I'll just try something out since we didn't connect on your foundational material conception. the mind-door is nothing more than a gateway, an entrance. The thoughts, Nama, substantiated the existance of the thought, gave rise to the thought, IN THE DOOR WAY. Now that it is in the door-way, what are you or we gonna do with it? Will it exist there in a static condition? Lets take your advice,\ Thinking is real. colette: thinking is an action. Now we are thinking of the nama in the door-way, no? Remember, you said that thinking is real since I've gotta go to the position if tangibility is real, and thoughts are real (thoughts being the result of thinking), then the Consciousness- Only school of buddhism should be well taken care of, no? Sorry, I can't hang with the rest of the post. Thanx for the opportunity. toodles, colette #76621 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:42 am Subject: Conditions of Welfare hantun1 Dear Dhamma Friends, Does a householder wish to accomplish worldly welfare? If yes, he will have to fulfill the following four conditions. (1) the accomplishment of persistent effort (utthaana-sampadaa) By whatsoever activity a householder earns his living, he becomes skillful and is not lazy. He is endowed with the power of discernment as to the proper ways and means; he is able to carry out and allocate (duties). (2) the accomplishment of watchfulness (aarakkha-sampadaa) Whatsoever wealth a householder is in possession of, obtained by dint of effort, collected by strength of arm, by the sweat of his brow, justly acquired by right means, he husbands well by guarding and watching it. (3) a good friendship (kalyaa.na-mitta) In whatsoever village or market town a householder dwells, he associates, converses, engages in discussions with persons who are highly cultured, full of faith (saddha), full of virtue (siila), full of charity (caga), full of wisdom (pañña). (4) a balanced livelihood (samajiivita) A householder knowing his income and expenses leads a balanced life, neither extravagant nor miserly, knowing that thus his income will stand in excess of his expenses, but not his expenses in excess of his income. ---------- Does a householder wish to accomplish spiritual progress? If yes, he will have to fulfill the following four conditions. (1) the accomplishment of faith (saddhaa-sampadaa) A householder is possessed of faith, he believes in the Enlightenment of the Perfect One (Tathagata): Thus, indeed, is that Blessed One: he is the pure one, fully enlightened, endowed with knowledge and conduct, well-gone, the knower of worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, all-knowing and blessed. "What is the accomplishment of virtue? (2) the accomplishment of virtue (siila-sampadaa) A householder abstains from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, and from intoxicants that cause infatuation and heedlessness. (3) the accomplishment of charity (caaga-sampadaa) A householder dwells at home with heart free from the stain of avarice, devoted to charity, open-handed, delighting in generosity, attending to the needy, delighting in the distribution of alms. (4) the accomplishment of wisdom (paññaa-sampadaa) A householder is wise: he is endowed with wisdom that understands the arising and cessation (of the five aggregates of existence); he is possessed of the noble penetrating insight that leads to the destruction of suffering. Source: AN 8.54 Dighajanu (Vyagghapajja) Sutta: Conditions of Welfare Translated from the Pali by Narada Thera http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an08/an08.054.nara.html Metta, Han #76622 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:43 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... indriyabala Dear good Scott (and RobK), - Thank you very much for having initiated another discussion in order to educate me-- a nice intention. RobertK is another person with good (and clean) intention to point me to a source of Abhidhamma history. That also has initiated a discussion that may (or may not) educate me. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Forgive me, good Tep, I can't help myself (incredulity-mind has arisen and is taking an interval of from less than one minute to x minutes to cease and I can't wait...): > > T: "No, I respectfully do not totally agree. You mean stream of > cittas, don't you? Obviously 'citta' in the Pali text above is not a single consciousness, because it takes time for an ordinary person to be aware of an arisen-and-passed-away lust. Similarly, anger and the associated consciousness arise and fall away, but not immediately. > That's why one can contemplate/be aware of the mind with anger from > the beginning till the moment of cessation in an interval of less > than one minute to x minutes later." > > Scott: Without the tempering of Abhidhamma precision, views such as > the above can flourish. Since Abhidhamma is NOT meant only for Devas > and Arahats, I suggest you begin lessons immediately! > Okay, I am ready. Give me Lesson 1. Tep === #76623 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ‘person’" - "The controversy on ‘person’ is ended" sarahprocter... Hi Ken H (& Scott), --- kenhowardau wrote: > Yes, we agree that thoughts (concepts) do not really exist. Thinking, > however, is a function of various namas that do exist. Therefore, > thinking is real. > > (Just to confuse matters we sometimes use the word 'thinking' to > refer to thoughts.) .... S: - or 'thought'/'thoughts' to refer to thinking. Glad to read your discussion and also to see all the APPLAUSE, CHEERING & CLAPPING your posts been receiving recently:-). Metta, Sarah ========== #76624 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. sarahprocter... Hi Evie, Thx for sharing your reflections here and introducing yourself. --- Evie wrote: > Hello, my name is Evelyn and I am new to the Buddhist community. .... S: May I ask where you live and what has encouraged your interest in Buddhism? .... > > I will keep my first post short, but my main goal is to become more of > a calm person, to use my meditation daily to help me to be become > enlightened. > > To not have so much frustration, sorrow, pain, anger, and to replace > that with calmness, happiness and understanding. .... S: What do you think about the teaching of 'Non-self' or anatta, as in the Anatta Lakkhana Sutta, given in this post before: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/57079 The point is, I believe, that the path is about a development of understanding of 'what is', rather than 'what we'd like it to be'. I'll look forward to your comments on this and welcome again. Please keep writing about your ideas, goals and practice as you see them! Metta, Sarah ========= #76625 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no 'person'" - "The controversy on 'person' is ended" sarahprocter... Dear DC, (I'm moving your comments around here and leaving those aside where we agree, hope that's all OK) --- DC Wijeratna wrote: > DC: Sarah, I think we need to make a decision here. Whether we want to > study Dhamma (teaching of the Buddha) or later developments (really > corruptions of Dhamma)? Otherwise we will not have a common subject for > the discussions. > > Please think about this and respond. .... S: Let me use note-form to try and summarise where we stand on this.Pls make any corrections you see fit: 1. You consider only parts of the Sutta and Vinaya Pitakas as 'teaching of the Buddha'. I consider that which is in conformity with the Dhamma-Vinaya to be 'Buddha Vacana': "But where on such comparison and review they are found to conform to the Suttas or the discipline, the conclusion must be: “Assuredly this is the word of the Buddha, it has been rightly understood by this monk.” (p.255,M.Walshe transl. of Mahaparinibbana Sutta) 2. You consider the Abhidhamma Pitaka, parts of the Kuddaka Pitaka and the ancient commentaries as 'corruptions of the Dhamma' and not worthy of study. You also suggest that 'Pitaka', according to the Historians is not mentioned in connection with the First Council and that only the 5 Nikayas were rehearsed then according to the Pali commentaries. When I read these commentaries translated into English(such as the Atthasalini and the Bahiranidana), I question whether the Historians have done their research thoroughly. I've written a lot on this topic before. For example: S: Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29638 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33875 See also the account of the First Council as written in the ancient history of Sri Lanka, the Mahavamsa. ***** S: So, in answer to your question above, I'm interested in studying 'Buddha-vacana'. I personally don't find any conflict in the different parts of the Tipitaka or ancient commentaries. The arahants at the the early councils went to great lengths to uphold these authentic (Theravada) teachings. The Mahanama arahants of Anuradhapura who had preserved the ancient commentaries in Sri Lanka, fully embraced Buddhaghosa's compilations in Pali. DC, I have no objection at all if you wish to limit your studies to particular parts of the Tipitaka, however. Many others here also prefer to stick to the suttas. Now, a couple of other points: ... > > S: Well, we do read about it and begin to understand the Dhamma. The > more > the Dhamma is understood, the closer we come to understanding the > arahant's vision, however far off that maybe! > > DC: Here my understanding is different. What the Buddha says is that you > need to travel the path (Fourth Noble Truth) to understand the Four > Noble Truths. When you read Dhamma if you can understand it, travelling > the path is superflous. .... S: Is it possible to just read Dhamma and understand it without any development of the path factors? What exactly do you mean by 'travelling the path'? .... > S: No, it's in the commentary, but the commentary spells out what is > intended in the sutta. > > DC: Yes, what I wanted to highlight is the fact that it is in the > commentary and as far as my recollection goes the author is not given. > And it is difficult to take the interpretations in the commentaries as > authoratative. .... S: I forget now which sutta and commentary this was in reference to, maybe in SN?. The commentary was compiled by Buddhaghosa. See comments above. ... > > > S: Cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana are paramattha dhammas, > paramattha > sacca. The Dhamma is about khandhas, dhatus, namas and rupas - all > paramattha sacca. > > DC: My difficulty is here, What is meant by the word paramattha. Parama > is not difficult. We can say it is ultimate. Really even this comes from > 'paara' meaning the other shore. But what do you mean by attha. > Dictionaries give meanins such as benefit, welfare, meaning and so on. > But I can't find connection to truth here. ... From the Guide note in CMA (transl. of Abhidhammattha Sangaha, ed.by B.Bodhi),ch 1,#2: "'From the standpoint of ultimate reality (paramatthato):..... Ultimate realities, in contrast [S: to conventional, sammuti] are things that exist by reason of their own intrinsic nature (sabhaava). These are the dhammas: the final, irreducible components of existence, the ultimate entities which result from a correctly performed analysis of experience. Such existents admit of no further reduction, but are themselves the final terms of analysis, the true constituents of the complex manifold of experience. Hence the word 'paramattha' is applied to them, which is derived from 'parama' = ultimate, highest, final, and 'attha' = reality, thing." The translation of the commentary to the text itself just says: " 'Ultimate [S: paramattha]' means in the ultimate, highest and undistorted sense; or it is the sense that comes within that sphere of knowledge that is highest and ultimate." ... > DC: Visible object is real. Nibbana is also a reality. Does this mean > that both are ultimate realities. ... S: Yes. ... Meanwhile, I enjoy reading your comments on other threads. Pls pick up on any of these points you are happy to pursue! Metta, Sarah ======= #76626 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. dcwijeratna Dear Sarah, I have a little comment regarding the following: >S: The point is, I believe, that the path is about a development of understanding of 'what is', rather than 'what we'd like it to be'. DC: We think that the path is about dukkha and its cessation. That is why we thought that it is called the -- path for the cessation of the dukkha (dukkha-nirodha-gaaminii-pa.tipadaa). With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76627 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 9/22/2007 12:37:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, Howard: "A conventional analogy, Tep: There are rainbows, right? They exist. But do they exist in the same way and with the same "reality" that do light, water vapor, and our eyesight? Are rainbows not less "real" than those other phenomena that constitute their basis?" Larry: This might better be explained by "own nature" (sabhava). ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, that wouldn't be my explanation, as I don't believe in "own" nature. I think the difference is whether an apparent phenomenon can be experienced without thought process, without conceptualization. ---------------------------------------------------------- Own nature can be experienced by consciousness, but only one at a time. Dhammas with own nature always arise in groups, but a group has no own nature, so a group can't be experienced as such. Cold and sweet arise together in ice cream. They are only experienced one at a time, but the reality is that they arise together. Our mistake is in not recognizing that each is only a very impermanent part. When there is a pleasant feeling, there is also an eye, an ear, a nose, a tongue, and a body with all its parts. And, incidentally, "rainbow" is "Inda dhanu" in Pali, "Indra's bow". ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Interesting, considering the Noah story in the bible. ------------------------------------------------------------ Larry ============================== With metta, Howard #76628 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:30 am Subject: Re: "there is no ¡person¢" - "The controversy on ¡person¢ is ended" indriyabala Dear DC, - If you have time and inclination, could you give me a translation of the following "nice gaathaa from sutta nipaata" (quoted in message #76604). Thanks. "namo te purisaaj~n~na, namo te purisuttama, sadevakasmi.m lokasmi.m Natthi te pa.tipuggalo" .............. I have pondered over your words (below) in the same post and have one question. DC: "The Bodhisatta was a human being, and the Buddha does not belong to the category of being as he had no lobha, dosa, and moha." T: Did the pure alobha-adosa-amoha meantal state at the Awakening transform the Bodhisatta, a human being, into the special being known as Tathaagata? If so, why are other Arahants not in the same category of beings? Others have said it is because of different accumulations and paramis. Do you buy that? Tep === #76629 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:45 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (67) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato 2. Rohiniitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 2. The commentary on the verses of Theri Rohinii part 3 arahatta.m pana patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa pubbe sotaapannakaale pitaraa attanaa ca vacanapa.tivacanavasena vuttagaathaa udaanavasena bhaasantii- 271. "sama.naati bhoti supi, sama.naati pabujjhasi; sama.naaneva kittesi, sama.nii nuuna bhavissasi. 272. "Vipula.m anna~nca paana~nca, sama.naana.m pavecchasi; rohinii daani pucchaami, kena te sama.naa piyaa. 273. "Akammakaamaa alasaa, paradattuupajiivino; aasa.msukaa saadukaamaa, kena te sama.naa piyaa. RD: And reflecting on a discussion she had had with her father while she had yet only entered the Stream, she uttered the substance of it as verses of exultation: '"See the recluses!" dost thou ever say. "See the recluses!" waking me from sleep. Praise of recluses ever on thy tongue. Say, damsel, hast a mind recluse to be? (271) Thou givest these recluses as they come, Abundant food and drink. Come, Rohi.nii. *346 I ask, why are recluses dear to thee? (272) Not fain to work are they, the lazy crew. They make their living off what others give. Cadging are they, and greedy of tit-bits - I ask, why are recluses dear to thee?' (273) *346 Note her emphasis on work or action (kamma or karma) to meet her father's - the typically worldly man's - failure to discern the fact and value of any 'work' that had no worldly object. PRUITT: And after attaining Arahatship and looking over her attainment, reciting as a solemn utterance the verses previously spoken as a dialogue between her father and her at the time she was a Stream-Winner, she repeated these verses: [Rohinii's father:] 271. Lady, you fell asleep* [saying], "Ascetics." You wake up [saying], "Ascetics." Your praise only ascetics. Assuredly you will be an ascetic. 272. You bestow much food and drink upon ascetics. Rohinii, now I ask you, Why are ascetics dear to you? 273. [They are] not dutiful, lazy, living on what is given by others, full of expectation, desirous of sweet things, [so] why are ascetics dear to you? *.....For a discussion of the rdgs for this psg, see EV II, p.119 ===tbc, connie. #76630 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:03 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: Me: "...Since Abhidhamma is NOT meant only for Devas and Arahats, I suggest you begin lessons immediately!" T: "Okay, I am ready. Give me Lesson 1." Scott: The following will be Lesson 2. You've already learned lesson 1 - by accepting the lessons you acknowledge that Abhidhamma is for all, thus revising an earlier held impediment to this excellent state of affairs. It is totally hilarious, of course, that I should be offering lessons in anything, as we both know, but it is kind of you to discuss with me nonetheless. The commentary again: T: "No, I respectfully do not totally agree. You mean stream of cittas, don't you? Obviously 'citta' in the Pali text above is not a single consciousness, because it takes time for an ordinary person to be aware of an arisen-and-passed-away lust. Similarly, anger and the associated consciousness arise and fall away, but not immediately. That's why one can contemplate/be aware of the mind with anger from the beginning till the moment of cessation in an interval of less than one minute to x minutes later." Scott: The concern regards citta as 'single consciousness. The problem is in not having as foundation that at all times it is always one single consciousness after another. The 'stream' is metaphorical and shouldn't be considered as an entity in and of itself - as a whole or a partial-whole or as some sort of unit. The 'stream' ought only to refer to the fact that one moment of consciousness precedes the next and this is by conditions. Lesson 2. Citta. Sa.myuttanikaayo Pa.thamo bhaago Sagaathavaggo 1. Devataasa.myutta.m 7. Anvavaggo 1. 7. 2. Cittasutta.m (Devataa:) 62. Kenassu niiyati loko kenassu parikassati, Kissassa ekadhammassa sabbeva vasamanvagÃ¥ti. (Bhagavaa:) cittena niiyati loko cittena parikassati, Cittassa ekadhammassa sabbeva vasamanvaguuti. 62(2) "By what is the world led around? By what is it dragged here and there? What is the one thing that has All under its control?" "The world is led around by mind; By mind it's dragged here and there. Mind is the one thing that has All under its control." Scott: What do you think of the sutta? Note that in the Pali we have 'cittena' and cittassa'. Next let's examine the meanings of citta. Sincerely, Scott. #76631 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:03 am Subject: Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? indriyabala Hi Howard and Larry, - Please allow me to pull your three posts together in order to handle them more efficiently. Howard (#76616) : "A conventional analogy, Tep: There are rainbows, right? They exist. But do they exist in the same way and with the same "reality" that do light, water vapor, and our eyesight? Are rainbows not less "real" than those other phenomena that constitute their basis?" T: I have seen the rainbows analogy a number of times ! It is comparable to the chariot simile -- when all components (conditioning factors) are taken apart, the chariot is not seen. The chariot and the rainbows and a person (defined by the coming together of form, feeling,..., mind) are not less real than their components. They are real in the present but false in the past and future moments. Thus no (permanent) self can be found in any dhamma (phenomenon, reality). ............. Larry (#76617) : This might better be explained by "own nature" (sabhava). Own nature can be experienced by consciousness, but only one at a time. Dhammas with own nature always arise in groups, but a group has no own nature, so a group can't be experienced as such. Cold and sweet arise together in ice cream. They are only experienced one at a time, but the reality is that they arise together. Our mistake is in not recognizing that each is only a very impermanent part. When there is a pleasant feeling, there is also an eye, an ear, a nose, a tongue, and a body with all its parts. And, incidentally, "rainbow" is "Inda dhanu" in Pali, "Indra's bow". Howard(#76627): Well, that wouldn't be my explanation, as I don't believe in "own" nature. I think the difference is whether an apparent phenomenon can be experienced without thought process, without conceptualization. Interesting, considering the Noah story in the bible. T: I wrote the following reply to Sarah about attabhava and sabhava. ..................... Sarah: "Individual self-hood" (atta-bhaava) is what the physical body is called; or it is simply the pentad of categories, since it is actually only a descriptive device derived (upaada-pa~n~natti) upon the pentad of categories (Vis. Ch. IX/p. 310). "Here when the categories are not fully known, there is naming (abhidhaana) of them and of the consciousness as 'self,' that is, the physical body or alternatively the five categories... (it is) presence (sabbhaava) as a mere description in the case of what is called a 'being' (bhaata), though in the ultimate sense the 'being' is non-existent (avijjamaana)" (VisA. 298). Tep: Of course, when the "categories" are "fully known" to someone, s/he then becomes an ariya whose perspective changes to the ultimate realities because 'attanuditthi' has been terminated. In the ultimate dhamma world 'the being' is non-existent -- but it is just the consequence of a completely new perspective. Buddhas and Arahants always exist and there will always be good Buddhists who practice according to the Dhamma. .............. T: Larry is mostly agreeable. Yes, each phenomenon is real and can be experienced one at a time. Yes, "Dhammas with own nature always arise in groups, but a group has no own nature, so a group can't be experienced as such". The five khandhas coming together are known as a being/person that is real in a given moment (the milk simile), but not in the ultimate sense when the components are taken apart. Tep === #76632 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:40 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? lbidd2 Hi Howard, Howard: "Well, that wouldn't be my explanation, as I don't believe in "own" nature. I think the difference is whether an apparent phenomenon can be experienced without thought process, without conceptualization." Larry: Consciousness is a deceiver. There is more to reality than meets the eye. When there is eye consciousness there is also visible data, eye, contact, perception, feeling, numerous other cetasikas, a complex body, a vast history, and probably credit card debt. Larry #76633 From: "Larry" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:58 am Subject: Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? lbidd2 Hi Tep, Tep: "The five khandhas coming together are known as a being/person that is real in a given moment (the milk simile), but not in the ultimate sense when the components are taken apart." Larry: I would say the 5 khandhas coming together is known as a person and, in a deeper sense, that person can be known as empty of own nature. Additionally, each component of a person can be known in a deep sense as not a person. Larry #76634 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:33 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 nidive Hi RobertK, > What are your reasons for doubting the commentaries accounts of > this. Sariputta's 500 students all became arahats after listneing > to him recite the Abhidhamma . As Sitagu sayadaw explains: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm Firstly, Sitagu Sayadaw got his mathematics wrong. 24 * 60 minutes in Tavatimsa = 100 * 12 months in human world Since the Buddha is supposedly to have preached the whole Abhidhamma in 3 months, that would translate to only 3.6 minutes in Tavatimsa, instead of the 15 minutes stated by the sayadaw. Secondly, did Sariputta actually took 90 separate trips to Tavatimsa to learn about the Abhidhamma as stated by the sayadaw or was it the Buddha who took 90 separate trips to teach Sariputta the Abhidhamma by the the shore of Anotatta Lake while partaking of his almsfood? Thirdly, if there is "no benefit in teaching piecemeal a doctrine so deep as the Abhidhamma in the realm of human beings" as stated by the sayadaw, why did Sariputta deem it fit to teach it to the five hundred newly ordained monks who are supposedly to be humans anyway (unless they aren't)? Fourthly, if the Abhidhamma which Sariputta heard was "in brief" as stated by the sayadaw (which means Sariputta couldn't have gone to Tavatimsa in Point 2 above), how did Sariputta teach to the 500 monks what he heard "in brief" "in a way that was neither brief nor extended"? It sounds non-sensical. Fifthly, why didn't the Buddha teach the Abhidhamma "in a way that was neither brief nor extended" to the five ascetics? Afterall, Sariputta was so successful in making arahants (500 of them) out of worldlings by teaching "in a way that was neither brief nor extended" the Abhidhamma he heard "in brief" from the Teacher. Is Sariputta a better teacher than the Teacher? Sixthly, what sort of arahants did the Buddha praise the most? Are they arahants who are masters of the seven books of the Abhidhamma? Or are they arahants who are released in both ways having attained the Cessation of Perception & Feeling as stated in DN 15? Is there any account where the Buddha showered praises on abhidhammic bookworm arahants? Lastly, do you believe that mastering the seven books of the Abhidhamma would make you an arahant? Why? Swee Boon #76635 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Dear Robert, thanks for your comment. you wrote: 'Yes, quite right. The World fellowship of Buddhists also were very angry because of what Nyanaponika Mahathera said about Acharn Mun.' D: my first reaction was : how nice, Robert agrees with me .. but then , reading the ' also very angry.. ' I am not so sure anymore... ;-) What I have said in my previous message is 'I , and probably others Buddhists too , feel uncomfortable when there is disrespectful speech of monks" Do you equate 'angry ' with 'uncomfortable'? I can assure you, I am not angry and most probably those in charge at that time of WFB neither. Without doubt this is an interesting case ..and I like to have a closer look but can you please explain what is it , you intend to tell me with its presentation in response to my message? with Metta Dieter P.S. :do you have a link for me concerning the WFB letter exchange ? #76636 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:07 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi RobertK (& Dieter, DC) - I have observed that when you write a post, most of the time its purpose is for informing or correcting an error that other people made. No doubt, error correction benefits the group, and I thank you for consistently performing that "duty" over the years. :>) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > the Chief Disciple Sariputta never used the > > Abhidhamma to educate any monks he supervised. Why? > > > >______ > Dear Tep, > What are your reasons for doubting the commentaries accounts of > this. Sariputta's 500 students all became arahats after listneing to him recite the Abhidhamma . As Sitagu sayadaw explains: > http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm > ""The Abhidhamma which the Venerable Sariputta heard in brief from > the Buddha he preached to his five hundred disciples in a way that > was neither brief nor extended. The monks who learned the Abhidhamma from the Venerable Sariputta were newly ordained, having entered the Order on the day the Buddha ascended to Tavatimsa heaven. These five hundred sons-of good-family took ordination at that time - the full moon day of 'Waso' - because they were inspired to faith by a display of miracles performed at the foot of a white mango tree. On > the following day, they listened to the Abhidhamma; and it was this > Abhidhamma which became for those monks their Vipassana. > > And why was this? Those five hundred monks, all of whom > became arahants during the rains-retreat of that year (the seventh > rains-retreat of the Buddha), also became by the end of the retreat, > masters of the seven books of the Abhidhamma (abhidhammika > sattapakaranika)." > Robert > T: The story of "the monks who learned the Abhidhamma from the Venerable Sariputta" is also mentioned briefly by Ven. Nanamoli in his article, "The Life of Sariputta". Nanamoli: We come now to one of the most important contributions made by the Venerable Sariputta to Buddhist teaching. According to tradition (e.g., in the Atthasalini), the Buddha preached the Abhidhamma in the Tavatimsa heaven to his mother, Queen Maya, who had been reborn as deva in that world. He did this for three months, and when returning daily to earth for his meals, he gave to the Venerable Sariputta the "method" (naya) of that portion of Abhidhamma he had preached. The Atthasalini says; "Thus the giving of the method was to the Chief Disciple, who was endowed with analytical knowledge, as though the Buddha stood on the edge of the shore and pointed out the ocean with his open hand. To the Elder the doctrine taught by the Blessed One in hundreds and thousands of methods became very clear." Thereafter, the Elder passed on what he had learned to his five hundred disciples. T: However, I must emphasize that this brief story is not found in the Sutta-Pitaka and none of the Arahant Sariputta's discourses is about the Abhidhamma that he taught these 500 monks. According to the Sutta-Pitaka Ven. Sariputta only taught new monks until they attained the fruition of stream-entry. Then Ven. Moggallana took over to train them toward arahantship. Nanamoli: It is said that whenever Sariputta gave advice, he showed infinite patience; he would admonish and instruct up to a hundred or a thousand times, until his pupil was established in the Fruition of stream-entry. Only then did he discharge him and give his advice to others. Very great was the number of those who, after receiving his instruction and following it faithfully, attained to Arahatship. In the Sacca-vibhanga Sutta (Majjh. 141) the Buddha says: "Sariputta is like a mother who brings forth, while Moggallana is like a nurse of that which has been brought forth. Sariputta trains to the Fruit of stream-entry, and Moggallana trains to the highest goal." T: Do you have any idea why the teaching of the Abhidhamma by the Arahant Sariputta, being so important as it is, was not included in any of his discourses or even in the Patisambhida-magga? ............. Nanamoli: Further it is said: "The textual order of the Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta; the numerical series in the Great Book (Patthana) was also determined by him. In this way the Elder, without spoiling the unique doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order to make it easy to learn, remember, study and teach the Law." T: And that is what it should be : a purpose of a monk in learning the Abhidhamma is to make it "easy to learn, remember, study and teach the Law". So the Abhidhamma is supposed to support the main Teachings as expounded in the Sutta-Pitaka. Agree? Tep === #76637 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:23 am Subject: Re: Person in the Dhatuvibhanga Sutta, MN 140 - a mere concept? indriyabala Hi Larry, - You kindly wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Tep: "The five khandhas coming together are known as > a being/person that is real in a given moment (the milk simile), but > not in the ultimate sense when the components are taken apart." > Larry: I would say the 5 khandhas coming together is known as a person and, in a deeper sense, that person can be known as empty of own nature. Additionally, each component of a person can be known in a deep sense as not a person. > > Larry > T: It depends on how deep you meant. In the ultimately-deep sense, nothing(own nature, being, etc.) matters except the pramattha dhammas. That's how I see it. Tep === #76638 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Hi Tep, you wrote: ' Perhaps we should change the tactic. Do you think the communication may be easier if we start from a subject matter that both sides accept?' ' So you are right, the conventional teaching comes first. You may say that again.' D: hence by recalling the mundane right understanding /view a common platform may be established but I am not sure about finding the openness .. with Metta Dieter #76639 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no ¡person¢" - "The controversy on ¡person¢ is ended" dcwijeratna Dear Tep, > Tep: Dear DC, - If you have time and inclination, could you give me a translation of the following "nice gaathaa from sutta nipaata" (quoted in message #76604). Thanks. "namo te purisaaj~n~na, namo te purisuttama, sadevakasmi. m lokasmi.m Natthi te pa.tipuggalo" ............ .. DC: The translation is: "Homage to you, [thoroughbred of men.] Homage to you, [best of men.] In the world including the devas there is no [rival] to you." This is from the Translation by K.R. Norman with alternative translations by I.B. Horner and Ven. Walpola Rahula, published by PTS. The poem is in the Sabhiya sutta [p.91]. There are three more poems there. Here is the translation of the last one: "As a beautiful lotus flower does not cling to water, so you do not cling to merit and [evil], both. Stretch forth your feet, hero. Sabhiya pays homage to the [teacher's feet.]. Of course the sublime beauty of the originals are gone in the translation. >T: Did the pure alobha-adosa- amoha meantal state at the Awakening transform the Bodhisatta, a human being, into the special being known as Tathaagata? If so, why are other Arahants not in the same category of beings? Others have said it is because of different accumulations and paramis. Do you buy that? DC: To the first question the answer is 'yes'. To the second question: My understanding is 'yes' qualified as follows: The Buddha is also an arahant [Namo tassa bhagavato arahato ... ; iti'pi so bhagavaa araha.m...] There is no measure for arahants. They have no lobha, dosa and moha and all of them have attained Nibbaana. There is no measure means it is an absolute. You can't compare arahants with any being--human, deva, or brahma anything that we have knowledge of. The difference between the Buddha and arahant is that the Buddha is the discoverer of the Path and arahants follow the path discovered by the Buddha. Let me put it like this: Newton discovered the laws of motion. I also know them. But it is very unlikely that anybody would think of me as being equal to Newton. Or think of Columbus. Another reason is there are three grades of arahants according to the suttas: sammaasambuddha, paccekabuddha, and the arahants. Now a sutta references: (1) "Then the Lord addressed the monks, saying: "I, monks, am freed from all snares, both those of devas and those of men. And you, monks, are freed from all snares, both those of devas and those of men. Walk, monks, on tour for for the blessings of the manyfolk, for the happiness of the many folk out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the blessing, the happiness of devas and men." Vinaya Mahavagga, PTS Translation, p. 28. Another important point to remember, to my mind, is the fact that the Buddha is an appelation; there were many Buddhas in the past and there will be many more in the future. With regard to 'accumulations and paramis' - that is language that I normally do not use. But on the other hand, he was endowed with everything, I mean everything, beyond imagination. In terms of what we call 'intellect' He would be million times more than Einstein. Einstein could talk only of the physical world. Already people are having problems with his theories. Einstein's is a mere theory. The Buddha's teaching is a realization. The Buddha's teaching embraces everything. If you go through the sutta pitaka--the suttas ascribed to the Buddha or approved by him, you never find two statements that clash with one another. Just imagine, everything done in the head. No writing, no computers, no software. As far as the material stuff is concerned, our island has been offerred to to the Buddha so many times. Or just imagine the number of flowers that are offerred to Him everyday. In terms of followers, for over two thousand five hundred years, how many billions? I think I am being emotional--so I stop here. With lots of mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76640 From: han tun Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:44 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (18) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 10: The Perfection of Equanimity, taken from the book “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ We read in another section of the same Commentary that people are confused and disturbed because of not understanding cause and result which take their course at each moment. This is compared to a cotton thread that is entangled, that has become a knot or a ball which one cannot disentangle by oneself. The Commentary states that the knot can be disentangled only by two people, namely, the Sammåsambuddha and the Solitary Buddha, Pacceka Buddha [1], who have accumulated the perfections so as to realize the four noble Truths by themselves. The perfection of equanimity is evenmindedness, it is non-disturbance by controversial conduct of people, by trying events or by the vicissitudes of life, no matter whether they are desirable or undesirable, such as gain and loss, praise and blame. At present we suffer because of being easily disturbed and unstable, but someone who has firm understanding of kamma can become unaffected by the vicissitudes of life. If one develops the perfection of equanimity, one does not pay attention to the wrongs of others, as the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” explains. One can be impartial and evenminded, undisturbed by the wrongs of others; one understands that people will receive the result of their own kamma. Some people may think, when others receive unpleasant results, that it serves them right, but if someone has developed the perfection of equanimity, he will not think in that way. He is able to understand paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities, dhammas which are anattå and beyond control. ---------- Note [1] A Pacceka Buddha, a Solitary Buddha, has realized the Truth without having heard it from someone else, but he cannot proclaim the Dhamma to the world. The Sammåsambuddha has realized the Truth without having heard it from someone else, and he can proclaim the Dhamma to the world. ------------------------------ To be continued. Metta, Han #76641 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:23 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > > D: my first reaction was : how nice, Robert agrees with me .. but then , reading the > ' also very angry.. ' I am not so sure anymore... ;-) > > > What I have said in my previous message is 'I , and probably others Buddhists too , feel uncomfortable when there is disrespectful speech of monks" > Do you equate 'angry ' with 'uncomfortable'? I can assure you, I am not angry and most probably those in charge at that time of WFB neither. > > Dieter > > P.S. :do you have a link for me concerning the WFB letter exchange ? _________ Dear Dieter (and RobertA), sorry, I should have left out the 'also' it muddied the message. I think the World fellowship of Buddhists were angry, as in the message the editor repeats several times "MAHA". And Nyanponika signed his letter as MAHAthera and that is his commonyly used title. From WFB: >>>""book learning may earn the students such grandiose terms as MAHA, pandita >>> and "">>>>the delusion of high-sounding titles such as MAHA, pandita">>>>> There is no link as I typed this out straight from the magazine This isssue: World Fellowship of Buddhists Magazine VolXIII no1 (BE2519/1976) This is an extract from what Nyanponika wrote: From Nyanaponika Mahathera Forest Hermitage Kandy, Ceylon Commenting on the bio of A.Mun. "..the shock I felt when reading the statement in the 4th section (p.135) that "a number of Buddhas togther with their arahant disciples" had paid a visit to the Acharn to "offer their congratulations upon his achievement". The controversy that understandably arises upon such a statement can I think be conclusively and decisively settled..[he then quotes sutta passagae ] Obviously , the statements abscribed to venerable Acharn Mun are in contradication with the afore quoted sutta passage. There are also conflicts with other well-known utterances of the Master on the nature of Tathagatha, on Nibbana, and the khandhas..Admirers [of acharn Mun] will have to face the dilemma and solve it for themselves, honestly without misinterpreting the Buddha- word""> I think my main interest is whether you think Nyanaponika Mahathera was disrespectful in his letter(I am pretty sure that the WFB thought he was) or whether it was appropriate for him to write it? If you think it was appropriate then we may have a benchmark of what is an appropriate tone and what isn't. If not then that is fine too. Robert #76642 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:56 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nidive" wrote: > > Hi RobertK, > > > What are your reasons for doubting the commentaries accounts of > > this. Sariputta's 500 students all became arahats after listneing > > to him recite the Abhidhamma . As Sitagu sayadaw explains: > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm > Dear swee, > Firstly, Sitagu Sayadaw got his mathematics wrong. > > 24 * 60 minutes in Tavatimsa = 100 * 12 months in human world > > Since the Buddha is supposedly to have preached the whole Abhidhamma > in 3 months, that would translate to only 3.6 minutes in Tavatimsa, > instead of the 15 minutes stated by the sayadaw. __________ Ok. ________ > > Secondly, did Sariputta actually took 90 separate trips to Tavatimsa > to learn about the Abhidhamma as stated by the sayadaw or was it the > Buddha who took 90 separate trips to teach Sariputta the Abhidhamma > by the the shore of Anotatta Lake while partaking of his almsfood? ___________ Actually the sayadaw was wrong there. I think the Buddha created a double who went to Anotatta Lake everyday where Sariputta went to meet him. ------------- > > Thirdly, if there is "no benefit in teaching piecemeal a doctrine so > deep as the Abhidhamma in the realm of human beings" as stated by the > sayadaw, why did Sariputta deem it fit to teach it to the five > hundred newly ordained monks who are supposedly to be humans anyway > (unless they aren't)? > __ Yes, a little badly put by the sayadaw. The main point is that he was able to teach it to sariputta who as the General of the Dhamma, was able to expand the outline given by the Buddha. -------------- > Fourthly, if the Abhidhamma which Sariputta heard was "in brief" as > stated by the sayadaw (which means Sariputta couldn't have gone to > Tavatimsa in Point 2 above), how did Sariputta teach to the 500 monks > what he heard "in brief" "in a way that was neither brief nor > extended"? It sounds non-sensical. ______ Sariputta was considered foremost in wisdom and was able to expand what he had heard in brief. _______ > > Fifthly, why didn't the Buddha teach the Abhidhamma "in a way that > was neither brief nor extended" to the five ascetics? Afterall, > Sariputta was so successful in making arahants (500 of them) out of > worldlings by teaching "in a way that was neither brief nor extended" > the Abhidhamma he heard "in brief" from the Teacher. Is Sariputta a > better teacher than the Teacher? _____ Sariputta, as an araht with full powers, was able to go to Anotta lake, His studnets, who were not yet arahat would not have been able to do that. Nor would they be able to fully understand the outline given by the Buddha. Thus it was appropriate for Sariputta to teach them later. ___________ > > Sixthly, what sort of arahants did the Buddha praise the most? Are > they arahants who are masters of the seven books of the Abhidhamma? > Or are they arahants who are released in both ways having attained > the Cessation of Perception & Feeling as stated in DN 15? Is there > any account where the Buddha showered praises on abhidhammic bookworm > arahants? ----------------- In the Majjhima Nikaya Mahagosingha sutta it says "the talk of two Bhikkhus on the Abhidhamma, each asking and answering the other without faltering is in accord with the Dhamma" is something highly praisworthy. I don't remember seeing the exact prhase: "abhidhammic, bookworm arhats" but there are many, many suttas where the Buddha praises bahusutta (the one who has heard much teaching) _________________ > > Lastly, do you believe that mastering the seven books of the > Abhidhamma would make you an arahant? Why? > _______________ very difficult to master the seven books of the Abhidhamma, probably far beyond my capabilities. However, even if I could it would not make me arahat because now is past the time for arhats. It would , however, hugely assist in developing right view. Robert #76643 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:11 pm Subject: Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. truth_aerator Hello all. I was thinking about the notion of Ditthi, epistemology, ontology of Buddha that is found in the Nikayas. It is very interesting that Ditthi carry negative connotations in Buddhism. Ditthisamyutta is very very interesting samyutta. It points to many theories and their origin. At first I couldn't understand it. Then it dawned on me: when someone takes a dependently arisen and constantly changing process, cuts out some event and reifies it, then in accordance with individual preferences one infers some theory to justify one's conscious or subconscious craving. A misguided philosopher makes logical inductions, deductions and speculations about various sense impressions he experiences. Since sense impression (contacts) are impermanent, these theories are impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering, what is suffering is non-self. The various ontological speculations are just that, speculations. If some things were clearly obvious and attained from the data of the senses (functioning without distortions) then there could be no need for arguments and doubts! But since different people have different preferences and cognitive distortions they each subjectively interpret various contacts (6 of them) in line with their biases. Static views are impermanent, changing and will become obsolete when new contacts are made. the perceptions & categories of papañca > thinking > desire > dear-&- not-dear > envy & stinginess > rivalry & hostility http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.21.2x.than.html perception > the categories of papañca perception > name & form > contact > appealing &unappealing > desire > dear-&-not-dear > stinginess/divisiveness/quarrels/disputes http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.11.than.html contact > feeling > perception > thinking > the perceptions & categories of papañca http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.018.than.html By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt, that just stress arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.than.html In Nidanasamyutta 68 (8) It is said that one needs to develop direct knowledge that is apart from faith, personal preference or logic. By now I think you understand why. Only direct knowledge from a hindrance free mind that deals with immediately visible phenomenon is reliable. Dhatusamyutta 13 (3) - Element -> perception -> view -> thought. "'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: " I had a pretty interesting experience during/after meditation. The idea appeared that "existence" is a perception, non-existence is also a perception. Since all perceptions are dependently arisen due to contact, they are willed fabricated and impermanent. When there is no contact there is no basis to say "exists, doesn't, both, neither. Matter, vacuum." Some popular theories for example about Consciousness as a root out of which we come from and to which we return is misinterpretation of meditative experience (base of infinite consciousness) or of reason due to personal likes or dislikes. Since these and other bases (24 listed in MN#1) are due to impermanent attainments, one shouldn't crave towards them. Unity and plurality are also two extremes (Nidanasamyutta 48 (8)) . Unity stems from reification of concentration, plurality from non- concentration, or due to reason alone. As long as there are inferences (which by definition are not directly found in sense data since they have to be inferred) there are grounds to doubt, speculate, argue and be attached to one's viewpoint. This is why many philosophies argue endlessly with each other and this is why I don't believe in them. They mistake their own interpretation of the world for the world itself. This is why Buddha's higher teaching is the best, directly visible here and now, free from subjective bias. Form, feeling, consciousness, volition, perception, emotions, intentions, mover, moved, actor, action, unity, diversity, change, etc are contacts. Often these contacts when the produce feeling become concepts. Contacts are inconstant, undependable, subject to change and shouldn't be clung to. Clinging to them is stressful (like being in a tall building during a powerful earthquake). When one stops blocking out the fact that all is subject to arising is also subject to cessation, proper view arises. As MN#1 says it has nothing to do with building very complex relationships between phenomenon that isn't directly visible. If we take (a deaf, deaf & blind, blind, normal and a savage) person into a room where there is top of the art equipment playing Beethoven then each of them will interpret it in a different way and could start arguing (like blind men an the elephant parable in the sutta). Thus perception is dependent of elements (functional sense organs and contact with phenomenon). Where is self nature in "outside" Phenomenon? Think about it… Someone builds a theory of 100 dhammas, somebody 75, someone 8… These theories obviously have no self nature since if they did have them, we would all agree on them. As a famous quote goes "When this is that is, with this arising that arises, when this ceases that ceases." For example color is dependent on conditions. If the eye is malfunctioning then the color will not be perceived or it will be incorrectly seen. If color had its own characteristic then even blind people would see and the color would somehow impose itself to the consciousness even of a dead person. Since this doesn't happen, since color is dependent on conditions - it has no its own characteristics. However it does NOT mean that color does not exist. Please don't misread what was said. Because we can (see,hear,smell,taste,touch, think) object it means that it doesn't have its own self nature. Even language is concepts, is without a self nature. Even suffering is not self existent from its own side. If it was self existent, then there would be no way out of it. It is possible to misinterpret and elevate suffering. Some terribly misguided worldly opinions regarding Suffering -> " Suffering ennobles man... No pain no gain... Suffering build character... Suffering adds spice to life, without which life would be bland. Nothing can be done about it. It is self nature..." Yuck! --------- "If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.053.than.html There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object).1 This, just this, is the end of stress. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.than.html Notice the absence of being establishing of concepts (hardness, cohesion, heat, motion, 4 arupa planes, this world, next world, sun, moon, motion, etc) in the Arahant. Of course an Arahant may and does use wordly speech, but only to guide someone without attaching and the Arahant fully understand the insubstantiality of concepts. "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta" - All phenomenon are not-self. This includes ALL categories such as being/not-being, motion, actor, action, object, etc etc. Ultimately Dhamma not to mention adhamma has to be let go off like it is said in the Parable of the Raft. Please forgive me for such messy writing of some notes. Hopefully this will be some food for thought, which will lead to dispassion and cessation of craving for phenomenon that will appear/cease when the conditions are right. Why crave for something unstable and constantly becoming otherwise? Why build theories that are but expression of ones preferences? Why not observe phenomenon as it is. A flux of rising and falling. What is to be passionate about? Dispassion and detachment all the way!!! Any comments, suggestions, corrections? Lots of metta, Alex #76644 From: "nidive" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:49 pm Subject: Re: Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. nidive Hi Alex, > I had a pretty interesting experience during/after meditation. The > idea appeared that "existence" is a perception, non-existence is > also a perception. Since all perceptions are dependently arisen due > to contact, they are willed, fabricated and impermanent. When there > is no contact there is no basis to say "exists, doesn't, both, > neither. Matter, vacuum." I agree with your experience. Swee Boon #76645 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:58 pm Subject: All-Embracing Pity! bhikkhu0 Friends: How to train and intensify endless Pity, Sympathy, & Compassion! Sitting alone, in silence, each early morning, with closed eyes one wishes: May I radiate and meet only infinite pity, sympathy, and compassion! May I & all the various beings on the 31 levels of existence develop & find only the genuine gentleness of infinite pity, sympathy, and compassion! May I & all beings on the sense-desire, fine-material, & the formless plane develop & encounter this tender infinite pity, sympathy, and compassion! May I & all beings in the front, to the right, the back, the left & below as above develop & experience caring infinite pity, sympathy, & compassion! May I & all beings in this city, country, and universe always be fully aware and deeply mindful of this warm infinite pity, sympathy, and compassion! May I & all beings in this city, country, and universe examine all details & subtle aspects of this benevolent infinite pity, sympathy, and compassion! May I & all beings in this city, country, & universe put enthusiastic effort in their praxis of this affectionate infinite pity, sympathy, & compassion! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe find enraptured joy & jubilant gladness in this fond infinite pity, sympathy, and compassion! May I & all beings in this city, country, & universe cultivate the tranquillity of quiet, silent, stilled, & endlessly merciful pity, sympathy, & compassion! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe attain concentrated & absorbed one-pointedness by this infinite pity, sympathy, and compassion! May I & all beings in this city, country, and universe dwell in undisturbable & imperturbable balance of loving infinite pity, sympathy, & compassion... Yeah! Print this out, dwell in each state until clear, use ~ 25-45 minutes. Comment: All-Embracing Pity is the 2nd endless state (AppamaññÄ?) This gradually reduces all aggressiveness, cruelty, ferocity, viciousness, rage, inner & outer violence, and unhappiness related with these states. Joined with the 7 links to Awakening it will later cause formless jhÄ?na... All-Embracing Endless Pity (=Karunã)! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <....> #76646 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 15, no 3. nilovg Hi Howard, Op 21-sep-2007, om 22:37 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I've been very busy with a number of > activities, including the Jewish high holidays (tonight & tomorrow > is the Day of > Atonement (Buddhist "at-one-ment"? LOL!) and being increasingly > active in an > interfaith organization to help homeless families. > --------------------------------------------------- > N: These are important days. I appreciate your helping homeless > families. ---------- > > > It seems to me that there is one (perfectly) right path but an > > unlimited > > number of paths that are wrong in some respects or other. I think > > it is off > > the mark to speak of "the" wrong path. .... > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > N: I would say, in a conventional sense there are many wrong paths. > > But here my point is dealing specifically with the path factors of > > the wrong Path and those of the right Path that are Path-condition, > > one of te 24 classes of conditions. For these factors I follow the > > Tipitaka, suttanta included. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > There are many ways to fall short of or to pervert any path factor, it > seems to me. > --------------------------------------------------- > N: You said it! As Jon explained many times, the eightfold Path is > momentary. There are so many akusala cittas, many more than kusala > cittas, let alone those accompanied by right understanding of nama > and rupa. > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > Seeing what the breath actually is is not an initial given, and > > without > > "looking" at the breath itself, it never will be given. As for the > > breath > > being a rupa, I believe that is incorrect. The breath is a complex > > of rupas > > known via conceptualization. > ------- > QuoteN: I see this differently. My way of looking at it is: what > dhamma we > call breath is appearing now? Through which doorway? Through the body- > door (tip of nose, or upperlip) can appear the ruupa that is > hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, oscillation. These are > characteristics of ruupa that can appear one at a time. > ----------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I disagree with that, Nina. Warmth can be felt as part of breath but > also as part of many other conventional things. Not all occurrences > of earth or > air or fire or water or bodily sensations are breath. What we call > breath is > a particular sort of aggregate of rupas, occurring interrelatedly > through > time. The warmth felt when taking a hot bath, for example, is not > "breath". > Breath is a specific sort of aggregate - it is a concept. > ----------------------------------------------------- N: Of course, that was not my point. How does the ruupa that is called breath appear at this moment, that is the issue. > > ----------- > > H: When attention is turned towards that complex > > (vitakka) and remains with it (vicara), it is possible, with > > practice, to come to > > see through the breath concept to the multiplicity of rupas > > underlying it. > > ------------------------------------------------------ > >.... > Yes, only one at a time is experienced. The experienced breath is a > sequence of single phenomena. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: right. When it is said: breathing long, the Co explains: during > a long stretch of time. The ruupas appear only one at a time. But > he also knows; it is during a long time or a shorter time that > there is awareness of breath. The Co: during a long stretch of time, and he breathes out a long breath > during a long stretch of time>. > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I know of no single rupa called "breath". Is that a rupa listed in the > Dhammasangani? > ------------------------------------------------------- > N: No. But the ruupa we call breath is a ruupa that appears where > it touches the nose or upperlip. Also before the Buddha's time this > was a subject of meditation. Now, including it in the satipatthana > sutta the Buddha reminded us that breath we find so important are > only ruupas appearing one at a time. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And it seems that you expect such pa~n~na to be cultivated by means of > reading, thinking, and talking. I think that is a pipe dream. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > N: Pa~n~naa cannot be developed further into direct understanding > if the intellectual understanding is not correct. Layers and layers > of self-misleading have to be removed, and I talk here for myself. > > ----- > N: I would say the Buddha taught satipatthana as the way to be > mindful of whatever reality appears because of conditions. If there > are conditions for breath as object, it will be breath. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > From MN 118: > > "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued > so as to > be of great fruit, of great benefit? ------ "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit. 9quote snipped). ---------------------------------------------------------- N: In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read: < On emerging from the attainment he sees that the in-breaths and out- breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that just as, when a blacksmith’s bellows are being blown, the wind moves owing to the bag and to the man’s appropriate effort, so too, in- breaths and out-breaths are due to the body and the mind. Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial... Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...> ..... In the Papancasudani, the Co to the Anapanasati sutta, there is more explanation on rupas which should be objects of awareness after the meditator has emerged from jhana. As we read at the end of the first tetrad, The Commentary explains, this is a certain body, kåya~n~natara: N: Breath is rupa, and it can be understood as such when it appears through the bodysense, at the nosetip or upperlip. It can appear as solidity or motion or temperature. It can be known as only rupa, not my breath, as non-self. Contemplating the Body in the Body: now we go to the Co to Satipatthana Sutta (Middle length Sayings, I, 10, translated by Ven. Soma): .... N: The most important thing is not to be led by an idea of . ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: None of us is free of that until awakening. ------ N: Right. But if pa~n~naa does not realize such moments it cannot further develop. Very important to be aware of such moments, that is the only cure. Nina. #76647 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. dcwijeratna Dear Alex, In the opening paragraph of this post you say, "di.t.thi carry negative connotations in Buddhism." Then what about sammaa di.t.thi--the beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path? May be you need to reconsider this statement. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76648 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views jonoabb Hi Swee Boon nidive wrote: > Hi Jon, > >> So while we live in a world of Swee Boon and Jon, nominee and >> proposer, we understand (at an intellectual level) that in truth >> and reality there is no single dhamma that is Swee Boon or Jon; >> only dhammas that we take in combination to be Swee Boon and Jon. >> Swee Boon and Jon are 'composites' that are mentally construed out >> of the experience of multiple individual dhammas. > > Have you seen a documentary on National Geographic on the > construction of the A380 superjumbo jet that will be making its > historic flight on Singapore Airlines this October? > > You can say that in reality, there is no A380 superjumbo jet. It is > made up of thousands of parts that are connected intricately to give > the impression and mechanics of a A380 superjumbo jet. > > Similarly, you can say that in reality, there is no physical body of > a person. It is made up of the heart, liver, kidneys, eyes, ears, > nose, tongue, skin, brain, tendons, blood vessels, arteries, spinal > nerves etc. > > If the aeroplane is a concept, you wouldn't have landed in Fiji. If > the physical body of Jon is a concept, I wouldn't have read your > reply. > > Jon, this busines of 'concepts being unreal & not existing' has got > nothing to do with the Dhamma. It's pure intellectual fantasy. > Now there's a challenge! Let me explain what I see as being the connection between concepts and the Dhamma. [By the way, are the words in quotes in your last paragraph, 'concepts being unreal & not existing', my words? I don't recall saying them.] In many suttas the Buddha describes the development of insight in terms of what is to be the object of insight. The potential objects of insight are variously described in the suttas as the khandhas, the dhatus, the ayatanas, the foundations of mindfulness or 'the all'. These are the dhammas that are to be understood, whose characteristics are to be penetrated. The Abhidhamma uses the term 'paramattha dhamma' to refer to these dhammas. They include for example seeing consciousness and visible object, body consciousness and hardness, and thinking (mental processing). They do not include aeroplane, computer, table or person. Such 'things' can never be the object of a single moment of consciousness. Furthermore, the 'dhammas' about which the Buddha (and he alone) taught are not the 'component parts' of conventional objects. They are of a different order altogether. (So the analogy of atomic particles and conventional matter does not hold, in my view.) So if insight is to be developed, there has to be an understanding of dhammas as being that which is 'real' in the ultimate sense. To my understanding, 'concepts' is a term used in apposition to paramattha dhammas. Thus, conventional objects, which are not paramattha dhammas, are concepts. They lack the quality of having an inherent characteristic that is directly experiencable by consciousness. In that sense they lack existence. > But I am not going to stop you from indulging in this mind-made > fantasy. It's not as if I could anyway. Enjoy! As I think I said in another post recently, the usefulness of knowing about concepts is in coming to a better understanding of what dhammas are. Jon #76649 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:10 am Subject: Re: Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. indriyabala Hi Alex, - Thank you very much for the comprehensive review of the suttas on self-views and not self. You have done a very good job ! Write more! Tep === #76650 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:10 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 15, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, We read about these factors in the “Patthåna” (Faultless Triplet, VII, Investigation Chapter, § 432) under the following three headings: kusala dhamma conditions (other) kusala dhammas, kusala dhamma conditions indeterminate dhamma (namely rúpa, produced by citta), kusala dhamma conditions (other) kusala dhammas and indeterminate dhamma (rúpa, produced by citta): (I) Faultless state (kusala dhamma) is related to faultless state by path-condition. Faultless path factors are related to (their) associated khandhas by path-condition. (II) Faultless state is related to indeterminate state by path- condition. Faultless path-factors are related to mind-produced matter by path- condition. (III) Faultless state is related to faultless and indeterminate state by path-condition. Faultless path-factors are related to (their) associated khandhas and mind-produced matter by path-condition. The factors of the right path are sobhana cetasikas which condition sobhana cittas. They condition mahå-kusala cittas, mahå-vipåkacittas and mahå-kiriyacittas and also mind-produced matter by way of path- condition. They condition rúpåvacara cittas and arúpåvacara cittas by way of path-condition. They also condition lokuttara cittas by way of path-condition. Not all path-factors arise with each kind of sobhana citta. The quality and the degree of the path-factors is variegated since they accompany different kinds of sobhana cittas. As we have seen, citta and the accompanying cetasikas condition one another by conascence-condition, by mutuality-condition, by dependence-condition and by other conditions. Evenso the sobhana citta and the cetasikas which are the path-factors condition one another in these different ways. Sobhana cittas may arise without the path-factor sammå-ditthi, paññå or right understanding, or they may be accompanied by sammå- ditthi. As we have seen, the development of the right path leads to happy rebirths or to freedom from the cycle of birth and death. The performing of wholesome deeds without the development of right understanding of nåma and rúpa can lead to a happy rebirth, but it does not lead to the eradication of the wrong view of self and of the other defilements, and thus, it does not lead to freedom from rebirth. ******* Nina. #76651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:10 am Subject: Asoka Ch 6, no 1. Samatha and Vipassanaa. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 6 Samatha and Vipassanå In Pokkhara we watched in the evening a performance of Nepali dances and afterwards we had a Dhamma discussion. We discussed the lobha, attachment, which arose while we were enjoying ourselves and laughing. We hear about the disadvantages of lobha, but there is no self who can eradicate it, only paññå. Khun Sujin remarked that it may be lobha which conditions our wish to eradicate defilements, but that the only way leading to its eradication is the development of paññå which knows the characteristic of lobha as non-self. The clinging to self is deeply accumulated and it is bound to arise even when one tries to develop paññå, when one wants to know the truth. Khun Sujin often reminded us that we should be truthful as to the realities which arise. We listen to the Dhamma and consider what we hear so that right understanding can grow and can begin to know characteristics of nåma and rúpa. When we watch a dancing performance, for example, there is sound of music, sound of people, sound of birds. Sound is just sound, its characteristic can be known when it appears through earsense. Thinking about the quality or the origin of the sound is another reality, different from hearing. Khun Sujin said that while we watch a performance we can see the amount of lobha we have, and that this is more useful than being ignorant of lobha. As paññå develops it can understand any kind of reality which arises, wherever we are and at any time. We should not try to be a different person, someone who has a great deal of kusala, before we develop satipatthåna. We should not try to have purity of síla and purity of concentration before developing paññå. Someone remarked that “access concentration” (upacåra samådhi) arising shortly before jhåna, and absorption concentration (appana samådhi) arising with the jhåna-citta are the proximate cause of paññå. Khun Sujin answered that this is the case only for those who understand the development of satipatthåna. The aim of the Dhamma is detachment through right understanding of realities. Someone who attains jhåna without right understanding of nåma and rúpa will not reach the goal, he will continue to take the jhånacitta for self. Before we can understand what it means that concentration, samådhi, is the proximate cause of paññå, we should know what samatha, tranquil meditation, is and what vipassanå, the development of insight is. They each have a different aim and a different way of development. But for both ways of development right understanding is indispensable. ******* Nina. #76652 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:22 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (67) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato 2. Rohiniitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 2. The commentary on the verses of Theri Rohinii part 4 274. "Cirassa.m vata ma.m taata, sama.naana.m paripucchasi; tesa.m te kittayissaami, pa~n~naasiilaparakkama.m. 275. "Kammakaamaa analasaa, kammase.t.thassa kaarakaa; raaga.m dosa.m pajahanti, tena me sama.naa piyaa. 276. "Tii.ni paapassa muulaani, dhunanti sucikaarino; sabba.m paapa.m pahiinesa.m, tena me sama.naa piyaa. 277. "Kaayakamma.m suci nesa.m, vaciikamma~nca taadisa.m; manokamma.m suci nesa.m, tena me sama.naa piyaa. 278. "Vimalaa sa"nkhamuttaava, suddhaa santarabaahiraa; pu.n.naa sukkaana dhammaana.m, tena me sama.naa piyaa. 279. "Bahussutaa dhammadharaa, ariyaa dhammajiivino; attha.m dhamma~nca desenti, tena me sama.naa piyaa. 280. "Bahussutaa dhammadharaa, ariyaa dhammajiivino; ekaggacittaa satimanto, tena me sama.naa piyaa. RD: Full many a day, dear father, hast thou asked Touching recluses. Now will I proclaim Their virtues and their wisdom and their work. (274) Full fain of work are they, no sluggard crew. The noblest work they do, they drive out lust And hate. Hence are recluses dear to me. (275) The three fell roots of evil they eject, Making all pure within, leaving no smirch, No stain. Hence are recluses dear to me. (276) Their work *346 in action's pure, pure is their work In speech, and pure no less than these their work In thought. Hence are recluses dear to me. (277) Immaculate as seashell or as pearl, Of lustrous characters compact, without, Within. *347 Hence are recluses dear to me. (278) Learn'd and proficient in the Norm; elect, And living by the Norm that they expound And teach. Hence are recluses dear to me. (279) Learn'd and proficient in the Norm; elect, And living by the Doctrine; self-possessed, Intent. Hence are recluses dear to me. (280) *346 Note her emphasis on work or action (kamma or karma) to meet her father's - the typically worldly man's - failure to discern the fact and value of any 'work' that had no worldly object. *347 Unspotted by greed, hate, or dulness; full of the A-sekha's qualities - virtue; contemplation, concentration, insight (Commentary). PRUITT: [Rohinii:] 274. Truly for a long time you have been questioning me about ascetics, father. I shall praise their wisdom, virtuous conduct, and effort to you. 275. They are dutiful, not lazy, doers of the best of actions. They abandon desire and hatred. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. 276. They shake off the three roots of evil, doing pure actions. All their evil is eliminated. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. 277. Their physical activity is pure, and their verbal activity is likewise. Their mental activity is pure. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. 278. They are spotless like mother-of-pearl*, purified inside and out, full of good mental states. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. 279. Having great learning, expert in the Doctrine, noble, living in accordance with the Doctrine, they teach the goal and the Doctrine. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. 280. Having great learning, expert in the Doctrine, noble, living in accordance with the Doctrine, with concentrated minds, [they are] possessed of mindfulness. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. *KRN points out that sa"nkha-muttaa is taken as a dvandva compound here ("like pearl and mother-of-pearl") (EV II, p.121). === to be continued, connie #76653 From: "tom" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:06 am Subject: Suffering: zorroelbueno Riding on a horse and trying to carry it at the same time. Z #76654 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to Phil - Part 4 nilovg Dear Sukin, Op 21-sep-2007, om 12:03 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > S> Yes, but even that might have been said with `self', in reality > > only `panna' can know. Layer after layer of self deception needs > to be > > seen through, and this can never happen without the help of all the > > paramis being developed. > > Sukin: First of all, I hope you didn't take it that my above remark > was > referring to *your* statement. I wasn't referring to anything you said > but to my own earlier statement about "panna knowing self-deception". > I regarded that statement of mine as being only at the level of > `thinking', > a vague guess with no real understanding, certainly not at the > level of > satipatthana. ------- N: I just regarded your remark as a wonderful reminder. I like the expression of layers, and so it is. Thank you for this post and perhaps I may add something. > > ==================== > > S: Firstly it is clear that all akusala being conditioned by moha > can be said > to "not know" reality. Of these however, Wrong View imo, is most > dangerous, since not only does it `not know', but it in fact > "misleads". So > much so that when this follows any kusala, such as the act > of "giving", `good' is not really being encouraged. In contrast, > when any > kusala is seen by panna as being a conditioned reality and not > something that `self' does, the accumulation is quite different. ------- N: This is well said. ------- > > Without the Buddha's teachings on conditionality, the greatest > wisdom is > one which accompanies the highest jhana cittas, and any development > which leads to this should be highly praised. But in light of the > Dhamma, > even this is ultimately deceptive. Those who practice jhana rest > satisfied > thinking that the highest goal is being aimed at, little do they know > about the tenacity of the kilesas. > > And there are the more earthy teachers, namely those of other > religions. These men by virtue of their recognizing to a some > extent the > value in dana, sila, metta, karuna and other kusala, and the danger of > their opposites, are considered "wise" by conventional standards. > However, because they do not have a clue about the Four Noble Truths, > are in fact *ignorant* worldlings. ------ N: But also those of other religions can have a degree of wisdom. And also for us who have heard about the four noble truths there is still so much ignorance. I am not inclined to compare. -------- > > S: My own case, even though I have no problem accepting the 4NT and > would even consider myself to have more confidence in the Triple Gem > than most, still I can see much self-deception going on all the > time, and > this includes matter of views. Sincerity is there only in > principle, but > when it comes to facing the truth from moment to moment, I can see > how little of this there really is. For this reason I appreciate > the need to > keep on listening to and considering the Dhamma, particularly as > expressed by A. Sujin, you and some others here. ---------- > N: Only kusala citta is accompanied by confidence, but since there > are more akusala cittas than kusala cittas, I for myself can say: > there is not much confidence. I agree, the listening is never > enough, seeing the layers of self deception. --------- > S: We may think that we recognize the kusala/akusala intentions, > and it > may be so to some extent, but this is quickly followed by some form of > attachment or another and therefore we may end up deceiving > ourselves on way or another. We may think that we are getting > somewhere with such kind of observation, and this could be an instance > of tanha and self-view. ------- N: You said it. So much attachment and that means: not enough confidence. -------- > (snipped) > S: Finally, I would like to bring up the notion of "Saccannana". I > realize that > this is referring to the 4NT, but the word sacca also reminds me of > sincerity. Saccannana is the level of understanding which is firm > about > there being only the present reality to be known. I find this > impossible to > reach if there was not also sincerity being developed all along. Self- > deception takes one away not only from the present moment, but also > possibly to adopt a wrong path of practice. ------ N: Good you bring up sincerity with sacca ~naa.na. > Thank you for your post and reminders, Nina. #76655 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:40 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... indriyabala Hi Scott, - I truly enjoy taking turn with you in the discussion. Now I can question you as much as I want (since I am the listener, not speaker) about your understanding of the Abhidhamma. ........... > T: "Okay, I am ready. Give me Lesson 1." > > Scott: The following will be Lesson 2. You've already learned lesson 1 - by accepting the lessons you acknowledge that Abhidhamma is for all, thus revising an earlier held impediment to this excellent state of affairs. T: Wait a minute, pal, let me clarify my position first. Yes, I am ready for your Abhidhamma lecture in which I am truly interested. But it is an entirely different matter to say that the Abhidhammic interpretation by the core DSG members, despite their high IQs, is for all. > Scott: It is totally hilarious, of course, that I should be > offering lessons in anything, as we both know, but it is kind of you > to discuss with me nonetheless. > T: Oh, you are too humble. ;-) ............... > Scott: The concern regards citta as 'single consciousness'. The > problem is in not having as foundation that at all times it is always one single consciousness after another. The 'stream' is metaphorical and shouldn't be considered as an entity in and of itself - as a whole or a partial-whole or as some sort of unit. The 'stream' ought only to refer to the fact that one moment of consciousness precedes the next and this is by conditions. > T: The single-moment citta is a purist's view. I like your careful word "consider" that implies a view or perception in the mind of the beholder, regardless of the reality outside. You're right, the moment one considers the stream of consciousness as a 'unit', a 'whole', or an 'entity', in that moment view-clinging is unaviodable. However, even labeling/conceptualizing stream of consciousnesses and accompanying concomitants as 'mind' is alright, if there is no clinging. What do you think? .............. > Scott: > "By what is the world led around? > By what is it dragged here and there? > What is the one thing that has > All under its control?" > > "The world is led around by mind; > By mind it's dragged here and there. > Mind is the one thing that has > All under its control." > > Scott: What do you think of the sutta? Note that in the Pali we have 'cittena' and cittassa'. T: It has the beauty of being simple, flexible, and not confounding. Every invention of mankind is produced by the mind. The mind controls speech, thought, and action -- that's why it has the All(world,loka) under its control. "From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world." [SN 12.44] Knowing the mind and 'the world' in this simple & not-confounding sense is enough to start the practice (of the Noble Eightfold Path) for cessation of dukkha. That's what I think of the sutta, Scott. Tep === #76656 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:40 am Subject: Re: Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the post. A: "Any comments, suggestions, corrections?" Scott: Just a couple. I appreciate the work the post must have taken but I hope it wasn't posted just to be admired... A: "I was thinking about the notion of Ditthi, epistemology, ontology of Buddha...Then it dawned on me: when someone takes a dependently arisen and constantly changing process, cuts out some event and reifies it, then in accordance with individual preferences one infers some theory to justify one's conscious or subconscious craving. A misguided philosopher makes logical inductions, deductions and speculations about various sense impressions he experiences." Scott: All philosophers are misguided. Are you also a philosopher? A: "I had a pretty interesting experience during/after meditation. The idea appeared that "existence" is a perception, non-existence is also a perception. Since all perceptions are dependently arisen due to contact, they are willed fabricated and impermanent. When there is no contact there is no basis to say 'exists, doesn't, both, neither. Matter, vacuum'." Scott: Is an 'interesting experience during/after meditation' of more value than any other conceptual fabrication, say, an interesting experience during/after washing dishes? Please don't reply if the above seems to you to be too pointed or critical. I hope you can continue to interact with others on the list. There is much valuable discussion going on. Sincerely, Scott. #76657 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... nilovg Dear Tep and Scott, I like your dialogue on abhidhamma. Op 23-sep-2007, om 15:40 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > "From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, > lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the > cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the > ending of the world." [SN 12.44] > > Knowing the mind and 'the world' in this simple & not-confounding > sense is enough to start the practice (of the Noble Eightfold Path) > for cessation of dukkha. That's what I think of the sutta, Scott. ------ N: Wish it were that simple. But a teaching in brief is too brief for us, ignorant as we are. We need more study, more listening to straighten our views. Do we really know what citta is, and what the world, namely the five khandhas are? Nina. #76658 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:13 am Subject: Re:re: [dsg] Threefold Training nilovg Hi James, Op 21-sep-2007, om 19:03 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Did I miss a post by Swee Boon in this thread? I am having a > hard time keeping up. ;-)) ------- N: yes. The post is: -------- > J: Thanks for your two posts in response. However, I got somewhat lost > in trying to discover the point you are trying to make. I read the > passages proceeding and following the quote I provided and I don't > see them as contradicting that passage or even presenting it in an > entirely new light. ------- N: No, no contradictions. The matter became complicated. You quoted from Vis.: dispensation. > It is the expression: quite purified, because then there is already a higher level. No purification without developed satipatthaana, that is: siila with right understanding of nama and rupa as non-self. Thus here the text does not deal with the keeping of precepts without understanding of the level of satipatthana/vipassana. The quotes I gave also imply this understanding: N: Note this: < And who although desiring purity Have no right knowledge of the sure straight way Comprising virtue and the other two,..> Do you see it? Right knowledge of the sure straight way. They are together: siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. And so on. Even keeping the precepts, we know that only the sotaapanna can keep them perfectly. How could one without awareness and understanding of nama and rupa. Many aspects and ways of teaching the Path: Do you see the connection with satipatthana? Awareness of nama and rupa, whereby the six doors are guarded? But if you read the texts another way, so be it. Nina. #76659 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:19 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Dear Dieter, - Please go on with the exploration for a working "common platform" that may lead to a door in the closed communication channel. > T: ' So you are right, the conventional teaching comes first. You may say that again.' > > > D: hence by recalling the mundane right understanding /view a common platform may be established but I am not sure about finding the openness .. > How about we start with exchanging our views(s) on the "mundane right understanding" ? If we do agree on a common theme, then we can call for an open discussion with others. That is what I see as a door to "openness". Tep === #76660 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner 17 and 18. nilovg Dear Han, Op 23-sep-2007, om 2:44 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: Perfections 18: > If one develops the perfection of equanimity, one does > not pay attention to the wrongs of others, as the > Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” explains. One > can be impartial and evenminded, undisturbed by the > wrongs of others; one understands that people will > receive the result of their own kamma. Some people may > think, when others receive unpleasant results, that it > serves them right, but if someone has developed the > perfection of equanimity, he will not think in that > way. He is able to understand paramattha dhammas, > ultimate realities, dhammas which are anattå and > beyond control. -------- N: It is difficult for us to be undisturbed by the eight worldly conditions of praise, blame, etc. but understanding dhammas which are anattå and beyond control is of the greatest support. Even if the understanding is of the intellectual level, by way of reasoning, it is helpful. But it is best if that understanding becomes more developed through satipatthana. One may be disturbed by political situations in different countries, but then this may help, what we read in your posting of Perfections 17: The Dhamma helps us to have more understanding of cittas and people's different accumulated inclinations. We can have more understanding of conditions when we face the events in life. Nina. #76661 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:33 am Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 sukinderpal Hi Dieter, I had very little time to read DSG yesterday and today, so I'm a bit late in responding. =============== Sukin: > Are you saying that after Parinibbana there exist something by which one might recognize past Buddhas and Arahats? > Is pointing out wrong view, `wrong speech'? > What does "well known" have anything to do with being worthy of respect? > > > D: talking about the background of my not so serious suggestion : Sukinder: I know that you meant it lightheartedly, but the opinions you hold are the opinions you hold, and those I meant to question seriously. ;-) =============== >D: I , and probably others Buddhists too , feel uncomfortable when there is disrespectful speech of monks , in particular of the senior one's , highly esteemed by (some) fellow disciples and (some of) the laity. Sukinder: Do you really think that I should give priority to whether some feelings are hurt over the fact that wrong impression of the Dhamma is being put forward? The esteem and respect are misplaced, why should I be encouraging this? =============== > D: A Buddhist is, as you may know , somebody who has taken refuge in the Triple Gem, i.e. Buddha , Dhamma and Sangha, to which we pay respect. > So a Bhikkhu , who lives according to the Buddha Dhamma/ Vinaya , should be treated in a respectful way. ( You may find many sources in the Canon ...) Sukinder: Of the four classes of disciples, namely the Bhikkhu, Bhikkhuni, layman and laywoman, the first is the most superior. Therefore between a Bhikkhu Sotapanna and a lay Sotapanna, the former I believe, is more worthy of respect. However, the Bhikkhu Sangha is *not* the Sangha of the Triple Gem. Here the reference is to the Ariyan Sangha, and why should it be otherwise. The Dhamma is so sublime, the Buddha so great, why would the third Gem be so comparatively ordinary as the Bhikkhu Sangha? Especially given that the state of this as of now and what is projected to be in the future, why corrupt the other two Gems by making such an association?! But this is what most Buddhists in Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka and everywhere else do. In their unquestioning reverence towards well- known monks, little do they realize that they are contributing to the corruption of the Dhamma and causing its decline. The Buddha said to the effect that only when the Dhamma is understood will He be seen. I would add that so too will the Sangha be known. Not really understanding the Dhamma, how could one be said to really have respect for the Buddha and Sangha? What "wisdom" and what "virtue" are being praised? Worse still, wrongly interpreting the Dhamma, how could one be said to have confidence in the Triple Gem at all? It is obvious that the respect supposedly felt and expressed by the laity today is little different from the Christian's love for Christ and the Hindu's devotion to Rama and Krishna. Do you want to be encouraging this Dieter? ================ > D: In case one would doubt his dhamma interpretation , the Buddha told us : > "In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu ….. > I like to emphasize ' scorn' .. and leave the cetesika identification to you. ..;-) Sukinder: I'll admit to some scorn, and won't bother to identify the cetasikas. ;-) But that certain Acariyas are wrong, I have no reason to doubt this. Whether the Buddha would consider some of these as being representative of his religion, is another question to consider. If I were to do as you suggest, with the thousands of Acariyas worldwide, I'll be occupied with this for several lives. ;-) And if in the meantime I'm expected to "allow for" the possibility that some or all of these Acariyas are right, then in effect I am encouraging of the wrong views being otherwise promoted. It is not my business to go around finding fault with these Acariyas, but neither should you expect of me to keep silent with regard to what is perceived as wrong, including misrepresentation of the Buddha's Teachings. ================ > D; Howard and I started ' Acariya Study Group' some time ago (failed lateron due to a lack of activity).. with the idea to learn from wellknown dhamma teachers.. though with a 'critical' eye, i.e. reseach of canonical resources. > But there has never been any doubt about a respectful and kind treatment of the Acariyas involved, regardless of different views (of the specific school) . Sukinder: "Learn *from*", and you are taking them wholesale. What would the object of respect be in this case? How far can the `critical eye' go? ================ > D: Does that answer you questions, Sukinder? Sukinder: I'm not sure. However you seem to not be taking into consideration the Buddha's suggestion in the Kalama Sutta, about no following teachers, because they are teachers, respected, well known and belonging to a particular tradition. I would suggest that you be more interested in the Dhamma rather than any "individual". In doing so, even if you did come upon a real Ariyan, your interest would rightly be towards the Dhamma he teaches. Metta, Sukinder #76662 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:35 am Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 sukinderpal Hi Dieter (and Tep), ============== > D: As I see it , some of our friends fail up to now to present a fair understanding of the issues ' concept ' and 'reality', though I doubt that anybody of them would deny the historical Buddha. > We talked about classical and modern atom physics before..likewise if the latter becomes the solely home without having reached the level of an advanced Noble One, an ivory tower of mind is established making the communication very difficult. Sukin: I would like to attempt an explanation even though nothing new is going to be said, only perhaps the presentation will make some difference. ;-P Concepts are objects of mind door, based to a large extent on what has been experienced through the five sense doors. A bell is not heard, a tree is not seen, chocolate is not tasted, perfume is not smelt and wool and ice are not touched. Seeing experiences visible object and this can be known immediately by sati and panna for its particular characteristic. And depending on the level of accumulated understanding, so too can the fact of being rupa, dhatu, conditioned, and anicca, dukkha, anatta, be known. It is by virtue of this that these dhammas are understood and identified as being "conditioned *realities*". Usually thinking immediately follows any sense door experience and this is influenced by past experiences of more or less the same sort, by which for example, a tree is recognized as being one. However then, as now, what really goes on is seeing experiences visible object and sanna marks it. This then conditions thinking over about what has been experienced. Even this can be known for what it is, sanna, manasikara, vitakka, viccara and the citta itself can be known for their characteristic in the same way that the sense objects are known. As conditioned `realities'. However because in fact neither are the sense door experiences nor the mind door ones known by sati and panna in the way described, the "concepts" such as bell, tree, chocolate etc. are often instead taken as being real. But knowing otherwise, after hearing the Dhamma, we can at least begin to mentally separate these experiences and know to distinguish the realities such as seeing, sound, feeling, thinking etc. from the concepts like, bell, tree, chocolate and such. I have a feeling that the difficulty with this is not so much a matter of reasoning and thinking alone, but more about "understanding", starting at the pariyatti level. The resistance I see that some have to making the concept / reality distinction is not that they can't make such an analysis, but seems to be due to "self view". Perhaps influencing this to some extent is attachment to prescribed practices involving concepts being the object of what is believed to be sati. But a flower does not have the characteristic of anicca, unless one wants to insist upon the conventional meaning of impermanence. In the process however, one disregards the meaning of anicca as meant by the Buddha and which can only be known directly by *insight*. The other kind of impermanence is and will ever be the object of thinking only, and like other concepts when taken for real is in fact misleading. I believe the difficulty that you and others have with Anatta as implying `no person', is due similarly, to a conventional way of looking at the matter. When you compare the Abhidhamma analysis with that of Physics' breaking down of concepts into atoms and so on, this seems to reflect this. That quantum mechanics does not make null other classical laws of science is no reason to think that the same applies to Dhamma, namely that there is one that works at the Paramattha level and another, at the conventional level. Science is a consequence of an interest in conventional realities, having failed to realize at the level of perception, that `concepts' are in fact not real. The interest is therefore motivated not only by ignorance and craving, but also wrong view, i.e. taking for reality that which is not. Sure the combination of the four primary rupas, create difference in color, texture and so on, including what one might call, behavior of these conventional realities. Besides there is also utu niyama, bhija niyama and dhamma niyama, which the Buddha taught about. It is the manifestation of these forces which when looked through the eye of the uninstructed worldling creates the interest and desire for further investigation. Here there is no end to the mystery and the corresponding curiosity. Explanations are sought and clung to until found to be unsatisfactory and this causes one to look elsewhere for answers. Unknown to all involved is the fact of avijja and tanha being the driving force, though objective and disinterested is what they claim to be. The study of Abhidhamma on the other hand, is about realities arising and falling away now, and this includes avijja and tanha. This is *so different* from science and everything else. Interest in science or any other subject *does* create preference for one or more set of concepts over others. Abhidhamma on the other hand, when understood properly, being about realities, is encouraging of less attachment to concepts. So in fact the question of ivory tower mind does not come in. That it appears to someone as such is perhaps due to the person's own attachment to some particular `view' and concepts. In other words, the failure to be truly practical. ;-) ================ > D: So far I assume that the Abhidhamma aimed to be a kind of manual for those close to the level of Ven.Sariputta ( and the legend speaks for that) and that the benefit of this teaching is missed when the context with the conventional teaching is lost. Sukin: Or rather it is missed, when the conventional teachings are taken to be involving *real* persons and situations, when in fact the message it means to deliver for the us the more slow ones, is the importance of making the reality / concept distinction, the sooner the better. ;-) Hope this hasn't been too theoretical for you. Metta, Sukinder #76663 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:40 am Subject: Re: "there is no ¡person¢" - "The controversy on ¡person¢ is ended" indriyabala Dear DC (and all other Buddha's admirers), - Your long reply clearly shows that you had time and inclination to share the knowledge with me. Thanks. DC: "As a beautiful lotus flower does not cling to water, so you do not cling to merit and [evil], both. Stretch forth your feet, hero. Sabhiya pays homage to the [teacher's feet.]". Of course the sublime beauty of the originals are gone in the translation. T: It is almost always the case, DC. They say a translation, no matter how skilfull is the translator, is like the opposite side of a colorful oil painting (on canvas). ........... DC: The difference between the Buddha and arahant is that the Buddha is the discoverer of the Path and arahants follow the path discovered by the Buddha. ... Another reason is there are three grades of arahants according to the suttas: sammaasambuddha, paccekabuddha, and the arahants. ... Another important point to remember, to my mind, is the fact that the Buddha is an appelation; there were many Buddhas in the past and there will be many more in the future. ... he was endowed with everything, I mean everything, beyond imagination. T: Precisely, every Buddha is special -- beyond our imagination. ............. PC: The Buddha's teaching embraces everything. If you go through the sutta pitaka--the suttas ascribed to the Buddha or approved by him, you never find two statements that clash with one another. Just imagine, everything done in the head. No writing, no computers, no software. As far as the material stuff is concerned, our island has been offerred to to the Buddha so many times. Or just imagine the number of flowers that are offerred to Him everyday. In terms of followers, for over two thousand five hundred years, how many billions? I think I am being emotional--so I stop here. T: I understand how you feel -- being overwhelmed by gladness and joy due to unshakable faith in the Greatest Teacher ! Thank you very much for the nice reply, Tep === #76664 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:22 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (18) indriyabala Dear Han (Presenter) and Nina(Translator), - I love equanimity ! The following two quotes describe the characteristics of equanimity as 1) the opposite of attachment, aversion and ignorance, and 2) impartiality to wrong doings of others. (#76567) We read about equanimity: "And equanimity is their opposite by dispelling attraction and repulsion towards desirable and undesirable objects, respectively, and by proceeding evenly under varying circumstances." Equanimity is the opposite of attachment, aversion and ignorance. We should investigate the characteristics of all ten perfections and see their benefit : they are opposed to akusala dhammas. ....... T: Equanimity is from the Pali 'upekkha' which has the following meanings. 1) PTS Dictionary : "looking on", hedonic neutrality or indifference, zero point between joy & sorrow; disinterestedness, neutral feeling, equanimity. Sometimes equivalent to adukkham-asukha-vedanâ "feeling which is neither pain nor pleasure". 2) Niramisa Sutta, SN 36.31 "Now, O monks, what is worldly equanimity? There are these five cords of sensual desire: forms cognizable by the eye... tangibles cognizable by the body that are wished for and desired, agreeable and endearing, associated with sense desire and alluring. It is the equanimity that arises with regard to these five cords of sense desire which is called 'worldly equanimity.' "Now, what is unworldy equanimity? With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous disappearance of gladness and sadness, a monk enters upon and abides in the fourth meditative absorption, which has neither pain-nor-pleasure and has purity of mindfulness due to equanimity. This is called 'unworldly equanimity.' "And what is the still greater unworldly equanimity? When a taint- free monk looks upon his mind that is freed of greed, freed of hatred and freed of delusion, then there arises equanimity. This is called a 'still greater unworldly equanimity.' T: I might have missed something important. The first meaning of equanimity as presented in the Perfections Corner do not closely agree with the PTS or the above Sutta. Do you have any suggestion? Thanks. Tep === #76665 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 8:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... indriyabala Dear Nina (and Scott), - Like Scott you have inspired my confidence that our discussion, although at times does not end in full-agreement, is always worthwhile. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Tep and Scott, > I like your dialogue on abhidhamma. > Op 23-sep-2007, om 15:40 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > "From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, > > lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the > > cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the > > ending of the world." [SN 12.44] > > > > Knowing the mind and 'the world' in this simple & not-confounding > > sense is enough to start the practice (of the Noble Eightfold Path) > > for cessation of dukkha. That's what I think of the sutta, Scott. > ------ > N: Wish it were that simple. But a teaching in brief is too brief for us, ignorant as we are. > We need more study, more listening to straighten our views. Do we > really know what citta is, and what the world, namely the five > khandhas are? > Nina. > T: Do I "really know" what citta is, and what the world, namely the five khandhas are (yathabhuta-dassana)? Not yet, but I am confident that with siila as the foundation, contemplation of the five khandhas (aniccanupassana) may lead to yathabhuta-dassana in this life. When a virtuous monk, or a virtuous Buddhist, in seclusion, contemplating the impermanence of the five aggregates of clinging, gladness(pamojja) will soon arise in him (or her). Gladness in the vipassana is the very first step of a series of the seven factors of Awakening, as described by the Arahant Sariputta as follows: -- When he is glad happiness springs up in him. -- When he is happy his body becomes tranquil. -- When his body is tranquil he feels pleasure. -- When he has pleasure his cognizance becomes concentrated. -- When his cognizance is concentrated he understands correctly 'This is suffering'. -- He understands correctly 'This is the origin of suffering. -- He understands correctly 'This is the cessation of suffering'. -- He understands correctly 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering'. [Also,] -- When he gives appropriate attention [to an object] as painful ... -- When he gives appropriate attention [to an object] as not self, gladness springs up in him; ... -- He understands correctly 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering'. [Patisambhidamagga. Treatise I, para #409] .......... Tep === #76666 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:28 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "I truly enjoy taking turn with you in the discussion. Now I can question you as much as I want (since I am the listener, not speaker) about your understanding of the Abhidhamma." Scott: Yes, it is enjoyable, isn't it? Discussing and contemplating Dhamma is said to be kusala. Let's hope some of it is, eh? T: "Wait a minute, pal, let me clarify my position first. Yes, I am ready for your Abhidhamma lecture in which I am truly interested. But it is an entirely different matter to say that the Abhidhammic interpretation by the core DSG members, despite their high IQs, is for all." Scott: Not what I'm saying, Tep. Lesson 1 was only that Abhidhamma is open for all to study - not just arahats and Devas. The rest depends on conditions, of which accumulations are a part. And, just for fun, what is your IQ anyway? And what does such an arbitrary, ephemeral thing have to do with Dhamma discussion? I insist that henceforth all mention of IQ, 'bookworms' and the like be stricken from the record! I know that you, Tep, are none other than a Closet Bookworm of High Intelligence! Ha Ha. I'm so amusing. T: "Oh, you are too humble. ;-)" Scott: I like that winky guy at the end. Of course I'm a conceited boor! Ha Ha. The laugh's on me! T: "The single-moment citta is a purist's view..." Scott: I wouldn't mind a little elaboration on this, if you don't mind my good man, just by way of clarification. Since this is the basic stand you often take, I'm not sure what you would label the view you are more comfortable with - the one opposed to 'the purist's view'. T: "You're right, the moment one considers the stream of consciousness as a 'unit', a 'whole', or an 'entity', in that moment view-clinging is unavoidable. However, even labeling/conceptualizing stream of consciousnesses and accompanying concomitants as 'mind' is alright, if there is no clinging. What do you think?" Scott: No, here I disagree with the connection made above, but this clarifies the stance you feel comfortable with. As a purist I say, 'In for a penny, in for a pound'. In the above, while acknowledging the non-existence of wholes, these are then seemingly justified (by the final clause) on the basis of clinging. The justification is untenable because without highly developed pa~n~naa, such a distinction is not made. Such labelling/conceptualising is, by default and in the absence of developed pa~n~naa, wrong-view. This is merely a restatement of the oft debated distinction between 'conventional' versus 'ultimate' sacca. The only way such labelling/conceptualising would be 'alright' would be if it was not misunderstood. The only way this is not misunderstood is that from the beginning one understands that wholes are not what they seem - they are only so due the distortion of ignorance (also a momentary dhamma with its own characteristics, I say impudently). T: "...Every invention of mankind is produced by the mind. The mind controls speech, thought, and action -- that's why it has the All(world,loka) under its control." Scott: 'Mind' in the above is spoken of as if it were a whole, a composite ('the mind'). From here we can move into a discussion of 'citta' if you wish. Tep: "'From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering. This is the ending of the world.' [SN 12.44] "Knowing the mind and 'the world' in this simple & not-confounding sense is enough to start the practice (of the Noble Eightfold Path) for cessation of dukkha." Scott: The 'origin of the world' (lokassa samudayo) is described in this sutta from the dependent orignination point of view. Within this description are found imbedded aspects which Abhidhamma clarifies. The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; form (ruupa); consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) which arises conditioned by contact - these cannot be understood properly without the clarification of Abhidhamma. Without this, wholes are conceived intellectually and wrong view is established from the beginning. For example, the 'eye' referred to above is not the literal fleshy orb within it's socket, is it? Let's discuss 'citta', once we clear this up. Sincerely, Scott. #76667 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Hi Robert ( Robert A. and others), you wrote: 'sorry, I should have left out the 'also' it muddied the message. I think the World fellowship of Buddhists were angry, as in the message the editor repeats several times "MAHA". And Nyanponika signed his letter as MAHAthera and that is his commonyly used title.' >From WFB: ""book learning may earn the students such grandiose terms as MAHA, pandita and "the delusion of high-sounding titles such as MAHA, pandita" D: fine , then let us have a closer look .. the title ' Maha Thera ' is not used in Thailand as far as I know , even Ven. P.A.Payutto, the countries most esteemed scholar at present, doesn't use it. Isn't it possible that the author had in mind bookworms in general , who claim to be Great Scholars (Maha Pandita), i.e not targetting the official title of Nyanaponika ? R: " N:..the shock I felt when reading the statement in the 4th section (p.135) that "a number of Buddhas togther with their arahant disciples" had paid a visit to the Acharn to "offer their congratulations upon his achievement". The controversy that understandably arises upon such a statement can I think be conclusively and decisively settled..[he then quotes sutta passagae ] Obviously , the statements abscribed to venerable Acharn Mun are in contradication with the afore quoted sutta passage. There are also conflicts with other well-known utterances of the Master on the nature of Tathagatha, on Nibbana, and the khandhas..Admirers [of acharn Mun] will have to face the dilemma and solve it for themselves, honestly without misinterpreting the Buddha- word""> I think my main interest is whether you think Nyanaponika Mahathera was disrespectful in his letter(I am pretty sure that the WFB thought he was) or whether it was appropriate for him to write it? D: don't be so sure with WFB .. those in charge with the daily business ( serving as an umbrella organization for all 3 Buddhist traditions) are very careful not to get involved in disputes. I have been in contact with executives while I was still in Thailand. Perhaps the WFB by means of the journal provided the opportunity for an answer only ... ( is the author mentioned? Assumed that was Ven. Maha Booa , who wrote the biography , one need to consider as well whether the reply was disrespectful). But to your main interest: I don't think Nyanaponika Mahathera was disrespectful ..but whether it was appropriate to write it , depends on whether his opinion was requested by WFB and if not whether that was the right way to address the Dhamma distortions he had in mind. I believe , we would need to get in contact with WFB in order to get a fair picture. Despite 30 years passed , we could try...(?) Last but not least : Ven Nyanaponika refered to a biography with the assumption of its accuracy.. perhaps a good idea to read as well Ven. Thanissaro's article http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/mun/released.html with Metta Dieter #76668 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:06 am Subject: Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views indriyabala Hi Jon (and Swee), - The on-going dialogue you have with Swee should not be interrupted because Swee is perfectly capable to handle any question with a smile (i.e. he is not crying). But I hope Swee forgives me for the failure to control myself. Tep's short poem: Jon, your latest response, That is a "no response" to Swee Is the reason for me to "butt in". .............. T: Swee clearly explained real-world existence of concepts like airplanes in the previous message . Swee(#76552): You can say that in reality, there is no A380 superjumbo jet. It is made up of thousands of parts that are connected intricately to give the impression and mechanics of a A380 superjumbo jet. ... ... If the aeroplane is a concept, you wouldn't have landed in Fiji. If the physical body of Jon is a concept, I wouldn't have read your reply. T: But your latest message does not seem to take his reply into account. Or, did I misunderstand it completely? .............. Jon (#76648): 1)The potential objects of insight are variously described in the suttas as the khandhas, the dhatus, the ayatanas, the foundations of mindfulness or 'the all'. These are the dhammas that are to be understood, whose characteristics are to be penetrated. The Abhidhamma uses the term 'paramattha dhamma'to refer to these dhammas. 2)They do not include aeroplane, computer, table or person. Such 'things' can never be the object of a single moment of consciousness. 3)To my understanding, 'concepts' is a term used in apposition to paramattha dhammas. Thus, conventional objects, which are not paramattha dhammas, are concepts. They lack the quality of having an inherent characteristic that is directly experiencable by consciousness. In that sense they lack existence. ........... I am butting out now ! Tep === #76669 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (18) nilovg Dear Tep, I looked up the sutta: Sam. Nikaaya, about Feeling, §29. Op 23-sep-2007, om 17:22 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > 2) Niramisa Sutta, SN 36.31 > "Now, O monks, what is worldly equanimity? There are these five cords > of sensual desire: forms cognizable by the eye... tangibles > cognizable by the body that are wished for and desired, agreeable and > endearing, associated with sense desire and alluring. It is the > equanimity that arises with regard to these five cords of sense > desire which is called 'worldly equanimity.' ------- N this is not tatramajjhattataa, but indifferent feeling accompanying attachment. It is akusala. ---------- > > "Now, what is unworldy equanimity? With the abandoning of pleasure > and pain, and with the previous disappearance of gladness and > sadness, a monk enters upon and abides in the fourth meditative > absorption, which has neither pain-nor-pleasure and has purity of > mindfulness due to equanimity. This is called 'unworldly equanimity.' -------- N: this is the equanimity of the fourth jhaana. Tatramajjhattataa cetasika. ------- > > "And what is the still greater unworldly equanimity? When a taint- > free monk looks upon his mind that is freed of greed, freed of hatred > and freed of delusion, then there arises equanimity. This is called > a 'still greater unworldly equanimity.' -------- This is the sixfold equanimity of the arahat who has no more defilements. Sixfold, referring to the senses and the mind-door. ------- > > T: I might have missed something important. The first meaning of > equanimity as presented in the Perfections Corner do not closely > agree with the PTS or the above Sutta. Do you have any suggestion? -------- There are many different aspects to equanimity, no contradictions. The equanimity that is a perfection is tatramajjhattataa cetasika. Evenmindedness arisies with each kusala citta. But it is a perfection if the gaol is having less defilements, less lobha, dosa and moha. Nina. #76670 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... nilovg Hi Tep, Op 23-sep-2007, om 17:43 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > T: Do I "really know" what citta is, and what the world, namely the > five khandhas are (yathabhuta-dassana)? Not yet, but I am confident > that with siila as the foundation, contemplation of the five khandhas > (aniccanupassana) may lead to yathabhuta-dassana in this life. > > When a virtuous monk, or a virtuous Buddhist, in seclusion, > contemplating the impermanence of the five aggregates of clinging, > gladness(pamojja) will soon arise in him (or her). Gladness in the > vipassana is the very first step of a series of the seven factors of > Awakening, as described by the Arahant Sariputta as follows: > > -- When he is glad happiness springs up in him. -------- N: Look, this is already more advanced. Do not go too fast. One has to start from the beginning: the first stage of insight which is: knowing the charactreitsic of nama as being different from rupa. A great deal of development of pa~n~naa has to occur first before there can be direct understanding of impermanence of the five khandhas of clinging, that is, of nama and rupa that appear now. ------- Nina. #76671 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no 'person'" - "The controversy on 'person' is ended" dcwijeratna Dear Sarah, Many thanks for the detailed analysis. You made the following remark: "I consider that which is in conformity with Dhamma-Vinaya to be 'Buddha Vacana." And support that position with a quotation from Walshe [Translation of Mahaaparinibbaana]. Our understanding is different on this matter. When we say "Buddhavacana" or the 'words of the Buddha' we understand it as the exact words uttered by the Buddha. There is one exception. The suttas by the close disciples of the Buddha like Sariputta, Mahakaccana etc. Most of such suttas I have read have been approved by the Buddha later. Such suttas also we consider as Buddha vacana. Now the basic criteria given in the four mahaapadesas ( I am using Rhys Davids Translation) is as follows: 1. The instruction start thus: "Again, brethren, a brother may say thus:.." That is that bhikkhuu makes a claim. 2. The claim is basically that he has heard from -- (a) "From the mouth of the Exalted One himself have I heard, from his own mouth have I received..." (b) from a company of of elders, or (c) From elders bhikkhu (d) a single bhikkhu. The important term here is "sammukhaa suta.m, sammukhaa pa.tiggahiita.m" which means learned face to face or direct. 3. There are three aspects covered: "This is the truth, this is the law, this is the teaching of the Master" 4. When that is heard: One should learn it properly--'every word and syllable should be carefully understood'. The Paali word is "uggahetu.m". It really means to learn and not understanding. What is there to understand in a syllable? This kind of errors can lead to total misunderstanding. This will be clear, if you keep in mind that we are talking about the spoken and not the written word. Understanding in Buddhism is totally different from learning or understanding in the modern sense. 5. "Then put beside beside the Suttas and compared with the rules of the Order" [sutte otaaretabbani, vinaye sandessatabbani"] What is to be checked is the textual accuracy in modern English. 6 In case the statement of the Bhikkhu fails the test, then "Verily, this is not the word of the Exalted One, and has been wrongly grasped (duggahiita.m) by that company of the brethren. Therefore, brethren, you should reject it." Grasped here refers to the learning (or memorising) and not understanding. That is our interpretation of the Mahaapadesas. That interpretation does not allow anyone to take the Abhidhamma (most of it) as well as some parts of the commentaries as the teaching of the Buddha. 7. It is on that basis together with the opinions of scholars who have studied the history of Buddhism that I have made my observations regarding the Pi.takas and the Commentaries. 8. If you want to see how much of Mahayana is in the commentaries you can read, "The Buddha in Theravaada Buddhism" by T. Endo. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76672 From: "Evie" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:45 am Subject: Re: a Calm Person eviebgreen Dear Colette, It is so nice to meet so many nice, open and understanding people. I actually had a very positive experience with my meditation on this last week. My meditation did not last that long, only a little over forty minutes, but it felt like it did wonders. My entire body was calmed down, my breath had led me into this deep meditation. So much so, that when the air conditioner kicked on my entire body tingled all over. I could feel everything, hear everything, my awareness was so heightened that it was amazing. I can not wait to have another experience like that again. :) Yes, I did find you all here on my own and so with that I know that I have lots of time. Even when life can feel so busy and you feel like you have no time at all, you have all the time in the world. Sometimes people just do not realize it. Being aware of what is going on in the 'now' in the present time is such a great thing that I am learning myself about. I am more mindful of what I do and what I say, also my awareness is better already. Not that I am really fast learner, which I believe I am with lots of things I strike an interest to. But I used to meditate all of the time ten years ago. And then a busy high school schedule and college and then after that a boyfriend who became my husband. Just merely excuses for why I may of stopped meditation, but now I know the benefits of meditation. One step at a time, I have learned not to rush into anything. It is just like a man running in a field, for example. If you rush your head will be clouded and you will fall to the ground. If you keep your head on straight and not in the clouds, it may take you more time to get where you want to be but you will not fall to the ground. Anyway, lots said here today and I will write more later. I try and check my mail as often as I can, so it may take me a little to reply back but I won't forget anyone. Hope that everyone has been having a great and peaceful weekend, and may you have a peaceful week full of happiness. -Evelyn PS- As far as my name, everyone can call me whatever, I go by Evelyn, Evie, Eve. Most of my friends call me Evie, so it is which ever that you are all comfortable with. :) #76673 From: "Evie" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. eviebgreen Hello Sarah, I know that you asked a few questions and I will answer them for you. I know that a few people are probably wondering themselves. I believe, that sometimes when a new face appears and what feels like out of no where, with huge curiosity and wanting to learn about something you have been a part of yourself for years... sometimes you want to learn more about this person who suddenly is there, a part of your life, some way or some how. So, I have no problems answering any questions that anyone may have to ask me. I am like an open book, I hold no secrets. What encouraged my interest in Buddhism??? I have been slowing learning and bringing Buddhism into my life for this last year now. Before that I knew parts of what Buddhism was about but did not want to incorporate it into my life because I was not ready to take that step in my life. I was still confused on my spirituality, "who am I" type of thing. You see, I was a born and raised Protestant Christian. And once I was a teenager and going through my confirmation and we were learning about different types of religion, I always wondered why we didn't learn about things like Buddhism. Today I believe the reason why my church did not want me to learn about Buddhism is because it is not based on the belief that someone 'died for your sins' or that there is this 'God' that you have to worship and praise. Buddhism is actually about your spirituality, Buddhism is about meditation, Buddhism is about bringing mindfulness and awareness into your life, Buddhism is being on the path towards complete enlightenment and towards nirvana. So sense I was a teenager I have felt a lost in the world with my spirituality, why I say spirituality instead of religion? It is because I have always been more of a spiritual person rather than a religious one. I have tried to be a religious type of person, but I continue to find myself referring to things that are more spiritual based. After a few years of looking for my religion I just stopped completely. I focused more on my spirituality. But always still felt like I had not found the place that was or who I was looking for to fill that gap in my life. Buddhism fills that part of the gap that I had empty and wondering all these years. Without getting into any much more detail about my life, because believe me when I say, if I do, I will write a books-worth here for you all to read. I will try to keep the rest short but with detail. When I was married to my husband, not even a month later and I was injured at the place where I worked by tripping over something on the stairwell going up to where I parked. If I had been more aware of everything it may of been avoided. When I fell up the stairwell I slammed my back and bottom into the concrete wall of the stairwell and my left knee into the stair step itself. I worked at a photography studio because that is what I wanted to do as my career. Be a photographer. When I was injured the results were terrible and so after three months of therapy and many other treatments, I had to go through my first back surgery to correct the problem. After that surgery I was on the road to recovery with in the first day, and the surgery recovery ended up being to quickly which is probably why I ended up this last year needing my second back surgery. The pain in my back got worse and I could barely walk, stand, sit, lift or even move without terrible pain. I went through another round of treatments now starting two months earlier than the first round of treatments that I had. And after starting all of the therapy and treatments I then had my surgery five months later. My last surgery was last year, March of 2006. A lumbar fusion. I have heard and read of reports of patients who have injuries just as bad as mine, who have recovered by their doctor taking a different approach to everything. Bringing meditation into the patient's life is very beneficial and has shown results helping the patient so much that they avoid going through a major surgery. I just wish that I had brought Buddhism and meditation into my life sooner, but I am happy that it is in my life now. Why am I interested in Buddhism? To ask again, in case anyone got lost in my talking there. Buddhism is something that I believe will bring me that inner peace and happiness. Buddhism is something that I believe will help me become more mindful of what I say and do, and more aware of myself, to think more in the moment and present of things. To stop worrying about so many different things. To help me relax more. Buddhism can help me in so many ways, and I can already see a dramatic difference. So I am very happy. Where do I live and what has encouraged my interest in Buddhism??? Well, I basically answered part of that question above this question here. But I will happily answer where I live. I won't give you an exact address here because I don't know all of you that well yet; but basically I live around the metro Saint Louis area in Missouri, in the United States. What do I think about the teaching of 'Non-self' or anatta??? I have to be honest with you when I say, it has only really been this last month that I began to start reading about how Buddhism came to be and what Buddhism is about. Because I am a fast, quick learner with things that I want to learn about I know so much already, but not so much on the teachings of 'Non-self'. I have read I am sure in my books about the teachings, and have looked up information that talks about it and briefly read the post that was writing up about it here. I understand which looks like the basic concept but would love to learn more about everything. So I will take some time tonight to read more about the teachings and get back to the group on what my thoughts are. I will write more later, but now must continue the rest of my day off of the internet. Good to meet you again Sarah. May everyone have a wonderful and peaceful day. -Evelyn #76674 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:44 pm Subject: One Useful Sentence is Better than a Thousand Useless Words * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! Sakyamuni Sambuddha Vihara ~ Dhamma Message ~ Taken from The Dhammapada1 Translated by Venerable K. Sri Dhammananda Commentary. Most of the words that are heard at the work place, at home, among friends, etc. fall into the category of useless words, or words of little value (movies, trips, gossips, etc.). To hear a single sentence of the Buddha-Dhamma (Lord Buddha's teachings about the way things really are, or more simply, the Truth), which pacifies one's mind is more worthwhile than listening to a barrage of useless words all day long. SAHASSA VAGGA - THOUSANDS : ONE USEFUL SENTENCE IS BETTER THAN A THOUSAND USELESS WORDS Sahassam api ce vâcâ----- anattha padasamhitâ Ekam gâthâ padam seyyo----- Yam sutvâ upasammati(100) Better than a thousand utterances, comprising useless words, is one single beneficial utterance by hearing which one is calmed. (100) Dhammapada, Verse 100 An executioner and his fate (Tambadâthika)2 Tambadâthika who was a former thief had served the king as the public executioner for fifty-five years; and had just retired from that post. One day, he went to the river for a bath, intending to take some specially prepared food on his return home. As he was about to take the food, Venerable Sâriputta, who had just arisen from sustained absorption in Concentration (jhâna samâpatti), stood at his door for alms food. Seeing the monk, Tambadâthika thought to himself, 'Throughout my life, I have been executing thieves; now I should offer this food to the monk.' So, he invited Sâriputta to come in and respectfully offered the food. After the meal, Sâriputta taught him the Dhamma, but Tambadâthika could not pay attention, because he was extremely disturbed as he recollected his past career as an executioner. This mental disturbance did not allow him to concentrate properly. Sâriputta knew this, and in order to put him in a proper frame of mind, he asked Tambadâthika tactfully whether he killed the thieves because he wished to kill them out of anger or hate, or simply because he was ordered to do so. Tambadâthika answered that he was ordered to kill them by the king and that he had no ill will or wish to kill. 'If that is the case,' Sâriputta asked, 'What wrong did you do?' Thus reassured, his mind became calmer and he requested Sâriputta to continue his sermon. As he listened to the Dhamma attentively, his mind became tranquil and he developed the virtues of patience and understanding. After the discourse, Tambadâthika accompanied Sâriputta for some distance and then returned home. On his way home he died due to an accident. When the Buddha came to the congregation of the bhikkhus in the evening, they informed him about the death of Tambadâthika. When asked where Tambadâthika was reborn, the Buddha told them that although Tambadâthika had committed evil deeds throughout his life, because he comprehended the Dhamma, he was reborn in the Tusita deva world. The bhikkhus wondered how such an evil-doer could have such great benefit after listening to the Dhamma just once. To them the Buddha said that the length of a discourse is of no consequence, for one single sentence of the Dhamma, correctly understood can produce much benefit. Notes 1. Dhammapada verses and stories are especially suitable for children. See an online versions here http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/dhammapada.htm , here http://www.mettanet.org/english/Narada/index.htm and here http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/ 2. In this story we can see that the doing of evil and the bad effect that follows both happen in the mind. There is no external factor which determines the punishment. Although willful killing in itself is wrong, Tambadâthika's mind was free of guilt and direct responsibility although at first he was confused and overcome with doubt. When he listened to the Dhamma his mind was freed from many other defilements and he was reborn in a blissful state. This is because rebirth is determined by the state of mind at death. However, he is not free from the effect of killing even though he was not solely responsible for the act of killing. Although rebirth has taken place in the Tusita deva world due to his immediate good kamma, the bad effects of his act of killing can follow later when his good kamma has been all expended. This is the nature of kamma. The only way to completely negate the effect of kamma is to attain Arahanthood (i.e. remove all residual mental defilements). This happened in the case of Angulimala. <...> #76675 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (18) indriyabala Dear Nina, Thank you very much for describing each case of equanimity for me. > > T: I might have missed something important. The first meaning of > > equanimity as presented in the Perfections Corner do not closely > > agree with the PTS or the above Sutta. Do you have any suggestion? > -------- > N: There are many different aspects to equanimity, no contradictions. The equanimity that is a perfection is tatramajjhattataa cetasika. Evenmindedness arisies with each kusala citta. But it is a perfection if the gaol is having less defilements, less lobha, dosa and moha. I appreciate your time and energy. Tep === #76676 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... indriyabala Hi Nina, - You had asked "Do we really know what citta is, and what the world, namely the five khandhas are?", and so I quoted the Arahant Sariputta's Patism on the sequence of mental states that follow a careful attention(manasikara) to a khandha as impermanent : i.e. first paamojja(gladness) arises, then piiti follows, etc. up to samaadhi which then conditions yathaabhuuta~naana-dassana (correct knowledge -- Nanamoli's words). > N: > Look, this is already more advanced. Do not go too fast. One has to > start from the beginning: the first stage of insight which is: > knowing the charactreitsic of nama as being different from rupa. > A great deal of development of pa~n~naa has to occur first before > there can be direct understanding of impermanence of the five > khandhas of clinging, that is, of nama and rupa that appear now. > ------- > T: What you described is correct, according to the standard format in the Vism. But in the suttas there are several different development routes to get the same end result. I hope you do not mean that the Chief Disciple Sariputta was incorrect, do you? ;-) Another Sariputta's discourse (below) clearly states that vipassana~naana or, as you put it, "direct understanding of impermanence of the five khandhas of clinging" can be developed on the basis of siila to attain the fruit of Stream-entry, and all the way from Sotapanna to Arahant. Sariputta: "A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry." MahaKotthita: "Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?" Sariputta: "A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning." ... ... ... ... MahaKotthita: "Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?" Sariputta: "An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness." [SN 12.122.] ........... So, there is no "going too fast". It is systematic and step by step. Tep === #76677 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:56 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,194 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 194. The bare octad originated by nutriment appears in beings in the womb who live on matter consisting of physical nutriment as soon as their body is suffused by nutriment swallowed by the mother; for it is said: 'And so it is that when his mother Eats, consuming food and drink, One hidden in his mother's womb Thereby obtains his nourishment' (S.i,206). And it appears in apparitionally born beings as soon as they first swallow the spittle that has come into their own mouths. So, with the twenty-six [material instances] consisting of the bare octad originated by nutriment, and of the, at most, two [sound] enneads originated respectively by temperature and consciousness, and also with the already-mentioned seventy kamma-originated instances that arise three times in each conscious moment [at the instants of arising, presence, and dissolution], there are thus ninety-six material instances; and with the three immaterial aggregates there is thus a total of ninety-nine states. **************************** 194. ye pana kabalinkaaraahaaruupajiivino gabbhaseyyakasattaa, tesa.m, ``ya~ncassa bhu~njati maataa, anna.m paana~nca bhojana.m. tena so tattha yaapeti, maatukucchigato naro''ti vacanato maataraa ajjhoharitaahaarena anugate sariire. opapaatikaana.m sabbapa.thama.m attano mukhagata.m khe.la.m ajjhohara.nakaale aahaarasamu.t.thaana.m suddha.t.thakanti ida.m aahaarasamu.t.thaanassa suddha.t.thakassa, utucittasamu.t.thaanaana~nca ukka.msato dvinna.m navakaana.m vasena chabbiisatividha.m, pubbe ekekacittakkha.ne tikkhattu.m uppajjamaana.m vutta.m kammasamu.t.thaana~nca sattatividhanti channavutividha.m ruupa.m, tayo ca aruupino khandhaati samaasato navanavuti dhammaa. #76678 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:46 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,194 nichiconn Path of Purity, pp.671-672: But as regards those beings of the womb who sustain life by material food, from the statement: Whatever food and drink the mother takes, Sustains the child that is within the womb, the bare octad produced by sustenance appears in the body diffused with the food taken by the mother, and in the case of those of apparitional birth, it appears at the time when first of all they swallow the saliva in their own mouths. Thus there are twenty-six kinds by way of the bare octad produced by sustenance and of the two enneads, at the most, produced by the caloric order and consciousnes: and there are seventy kinds produced by karma stated previously as arising three times in each conscious moment. These ninety-six kinds of matter, together with the three immaterial aggregates, make altogether ninety-nine states. #76679 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (18) hantun1 Dear Tep (Nina), Nina has answered your question. So she saved me the problem of scratching my head to answer your always-difficult questions. The sixfold equanimity of the arahat, that Nina said as the still greater unworldly equanimity, is cha.langupekkhaa (cha+anga+upekkhaa), which only Arahants can achieve. Respectfully, Han #76680 From: han tun Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner 17 and 18. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your additional information, and I really appreciate it. But there is one thing which still is not very clear to me. Any Perfection to be a Perfection, it must bring benefit to others rather than to oneself. Now, by practicing upekkhaa how can one benefit others? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: It is difficult for us to be undisturbed by the > eight worldly > conditions of praise, blame, etc. > but understanding dhammas which are anattå and > beyond control is of > the greatest support. Even if the understanding is > of the > intellectual level, by way of reasoning, it is > helpful. But it is > best if that understanding becomes more developed > through satipatthana. > #76681 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:22 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > > > D: don't be so sure with WFB .. those in charge with the daily business ( serving as an umbrella organization for all 3 Buddhist traditions) are very careful not to get involved in disputes. I have been in contact with executives while I was still in Thailand. > Perhaps the WFB by means of the journal provided the opportunity for an answer only ... > ( is the author mentioned? Assumed that was Ven. Maha Booa , who wrote the biography , one need to consider as well whether the reply was disrespectful). > > > I believe , we would need to get in contact with WFB in order to get a fair picture. > Despite 30 years passed , we could try...(?) > > _________ Dear Dieter It was the Chief Editor of the journal who wrote the reply. The WFB were serializing the book about Acharn Mun at the time. They probably have a new editor now, but if you have time , sure, please ask them about this issue. Robert #76682 From: "colette" Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:35 pm Subject: Controversy? ksheri3 Good Day Group, BBC tells me that buddhist monks and nuns in Rangoon, Burma (is it), created the biggest anti-junta or anti-government protest today. Since the vast majority of Theravadan followers here are extremely against any and all actions since actions create karma and well, the status quo is such an addictive drug. <....> So, the point I guess is that this group strongly advocates NON- ACTION as the means to achieve LIBERATION, while the Monks and Nuns of Burma in Rangoon, organize and produce the greatest governmental protest, WHERE IS THE CONTINUITY, I mean, the wise here are certainly the most ignorant when compared to the monks and nuns of Rangoon? Don't ya think that the Hong Kong could use a little Typhoon action? In order to manifest this we need more fossil fuels to be sucked up by that bottomless pit of humanity called THE STATUS QUO. I'm sure China will be able to offer many factories spewing smoke stacks of billowing fumes. And of course, my brother, living in Taiwan, will most certainly be advocating that the financieers of Taiwan finance the black markets in China to ship their contaminated products to the U.S.A. so that the status quo can not only complain to me about how bad I am but then turn around and find my bros, who they readily support, feeding them toxic substances. The irony of a good Tragic Comedy, isn't it? toodles, colette #76683 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner 17 and 18. nilovg Dear Han, Op 24-sep-2007, om 3:18 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But there is one thing which still is not very clear > to me. Any Perfection to be a Perfection, it must > bring benefit to others rather than to oneself. Now, > by practicing upekkhaa how can one benefit others? --------- N: The Bodhisatta developed the perfections in order to become a Buddha and help others to reach the other shore. For us it is different, we are not Bodhisattas. For us, the goal of the perfections is having less defilements and reaching the end of the cycle. We cannot purify others but a lessening of lobha, dosa and moha in ourselves is to the benefit also of others. If someone else is rude one may be able to take this in his stride by remembering that whatever appears are conditioned phenomena. Unpleasant sound that is heard is conditioned by 'our' kamma, the other person is not at fault. If we see the value of equanimity, kusala citta with equanimity can arise. No dosa. With anger one could not help others. When kusala citta arises instead one is more able to help others and think of their benefit. ------- Nina. #76684 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... nilovg Hi Tep, Op 24-sep-2007, om 1:55 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > quote N: A great deal of development of pa~n~naa has to occur first > before > > there can be direct understanding of impermanence of the five > > khandhas of clinging, that is, of nama and rupa that appear now. > > ------- > > T: What you described is correct, according to the standard format in > the Vism. But in the suttas there are several different development > routes to get the same end result. I hope you do not mean that the > Chief Disciple Sariputta was incorrect, do you? ;-) ------ N: No. He spoke to different persons with different inclinations. ------- > > Another Sariputta's discourse (below) clearly states that > vipassana~naana or, as you put it, "direct understanding of > impermanence of the five khandhas of clinging" can be developed on > the basis of siila to attain the fruit of Stream-entry, and all the > way from Sotapanna to Arahant. > > Sariputta: "A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an > appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, > stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, > alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. ...... > Although, for an arahant, there is nothing > further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these > things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding > in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness." [SN 12.122.] > ........... > So, there is no "going too fast". It is systematic and step by step. ------- N: This sutta emphasizes that understanding of nama and rupa should be developed, in order to reach subsequently the different stages of enlightenment. The stages of insight are step by step, I would not deny that. A virtuous monk: who has the four purifications of siila, thus, already purified siila. Thank you for the sutta quote which I appreciate very much. Nina. #76685 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:07 am Subject: Pure Mutual Joy! bhikkhu0 Friends: How to train & build up Mutually Rejoicing Joy in others Success! Sitting alone, in silence, each early morning, with closed eyes one wishes: May I radiate and meet only never-ending and mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all the various beings on the 31 levels of existence develop & find only celebration and elation of never-ending mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings on the sense-desire, fine-material, & the formless plane develop & encounter this generous never-ending & mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings in the front, to the right, the back, the left & below as above develop & experience sharing never-ending & mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings in this city, country, and universe always be fully aware and deeply mindful of this content never-ending & mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings in this city, country, and universe examine all details & subtle aspects of this satisfied never-ending and mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings in this city, country, & universe put enthusiastic effort in their praxis of this devoted never-ending and mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe find enraptured joy & jubilant gladness in this exulting never-ending mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings in this city, country, & universe cultivate the tranquillity of quiet, silent, stilled, and all smiling never-ending mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings in this city, country and universe attain concentrated & absorbed one-pointedness by such deep never-ending mutually rejoicing joy! May I & all beings in this city, country, and universe dwell in undisturbable & imperturbable equanimity of pure never-ending & mutually rejoicing joy... Yeah! Print this out, dwell in each state until pure, use ~ 25-45 minutes. Comment: Mutual Joy is the 3rd endless state (AppamaññÄ?) This gradually reduces all envy, jealousy, possessiveness, stinginess, avarice miserliness, green covetousness & unhappiness related with all these states. Mutual Joy is the proximate cause of satisfied and fulfilled Contentment... Lack of Mutual Joy is the proximate cause of dissatisfied discontentment... Joined with the 7 links to Awakening it will later cause a formless jhÄ?na... Be happy at all & especially other being's success! Then calm comfort grows! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <....> #76686 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner 17 and 18. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation, and I am delighted and satisfied with it. Can I also add one more thing? Even for us, who are not Bodhisattas, the perfection of equanimity can benefit others through other Perfections that we may be developing, because the equanimity is indispensable to the practice of all the other paaramiis, according to A Treatise on the Paramis, by Acariya Dhammapala, and translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html Quote: [Moreover, the undertaking, determination, fulfillment, and completion of all the requisites of enlightenment succeed through the power of equanimity. For without equanimity, the aspirant cannot relinquish something without making false discriminations over gifts and recipients. Without equanimity, he cannot purify his virtue without always thinking about the obstacles to his life and to his vital needs. Equanimity perfects the power of renunciation, for by its means he overcomes discontent and delight. It perfects the functions of all the requisites (by enabling wisdom) to examine them according to their origin. When energy is aroused to excess because it has not been examined with equanimity, it cannot perform its proper function of striving. Forbearance and reflective acquiescence (the modes of patience) are possible only in one possessed of equanimity. Because of this quality, he does not speak deceptively about beings or formations. By looking upon the vicissitudes of worldly events with an equal mind, his determination to fulfill the practices he has undertaken becomes completely unshakeable. And because he is unconcerned over the wrongs done by others, he perfects the abiding in loving-kindness. Thus equanimity is indispensable to the practice of all the other paaramiis.] End quote. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: The Bodhisatta developed the perfections in order > to become a Buddha and help others to reach the > other shore. For us it is different, we are not > Bodhisattas. For us, the goal of the perfections is > having less defilements and reaching the end of the > cycle. We cannot purify others but a lessening of > lobha, dosa and moha in ourselves is to the benefit > also of others. #76687 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: "there is no 'person'" - "The controversy on 'person' is ended" sarahprocter... Dear DC, We were discussing the Buddha's omniscience. --- DC Wijeratna wrote: > >S: You mean you don't accept Sariputta's word in the Patisambhidamagga? > ??? > > DC: This question is too general to be answered. If you send me the > exact reference I can give my comments. ..... S: (from my earlier post) >Patisambhidamagga (PTS, Nanamoli translation), Ch LXX111, 'Omniscient and Unobstructed Knowledge': "What is the Perfect One's omniscient knowledge? It knows without exception all that is formed and unformed, thus it is omniscient knowledge: it is without obstruction there, thus it is unobstructed knowledge. All that is past it knows,......................All that is future it knows,...........All that is presently-arisen it knows,........Eye and visible objects: all that it knows......Ear and sounds:....Nose and odours:........Tongue and flavours:......Body and tangible objects:....Mind and ideas: all that it knows,...." {S: The text continues for a few more pages on this subject of the Buddha's omniscience.)< ... > >S: I agree that usually the detailed descriptions of the Buddha's > knowledge > are given in commentaries and the Abhidhamma. But do you seriously have > any doubt about it? > > DC: The question in the present form cannot be answered. But I'll make > a few remarks. Commentaries are not part of the accepted Tipitaka and of > later origin. .... S: You questioned whether there was any mention of the Buddha's omniscience in the suttas and I wondered whether you questioned this (omniscience). I think your last comment above and below about the commentaries is a side-issue to the topic above, but OK, I'll go along with it:-)) ... >I don't think you are going to accept everything, for > example, in Jataka.t.thakathaa. .... S: There are many allusions, comments and details in all parts of the Tipitaka and commentaries which are beyond my comprehension. I just leave them aside. .... > Abhidhamma also started as an attempt to explain the Dhamma. It > seems to have reached completion by the 3rd Council. So Abhidhama texts > are also of later origin. .... S: Well, of course the Kathavatthu is of much later completion as the Buddha foresaw when he laid down the Mattika. It responds to the heresies of various (Mahayana, I believe)sects which would arise at such a time, leading to the great 3rd Council. .... > But the real issue is there are three Abhidhamma pi.takas. > Theravaada, Sarvastivaada, Saariputra Abhidharma Saasstra (This is > available only in Chinese translations--Encyclopaedia of Buddhism) and > their contents are different. That alone is a sufficient reason not to > trust anyone of them without examination. .... S: Would the same hold true for the Sutta Pitaka, since there is more than one Sutta Pitaka too, I believe? ..... > > In the Mahaaparinibbaana sutta, the Buddha gave four guidelines to > determine whether any text is the Buddha-word (the mahaapadesas). It is > possible to apply this test, if the exact text or the passage is given. .... S: Exactly, see my other comments to you in which I quoted the passage in question. As I said before 'Buddha-vacana' refers to what is in accord with the Buddha's teachings. Referring back to the Kathavatthu point above and this one, in the Atthasalini, Introductory discourse (PTS transl) it says: "Now when he laid down the table of contents he foresaw that, two hundred and eighteen years after his death, Tissa Moggalii's son, seated in the midst of one thousand bhikkhus, would elaborated the Kathaavatthu to the extent of the Diigha Nikaaya, bringing together five hundred orthodox and five hundred heterodox Suttas. "So Tissa, Moggalii's son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the Teacher. Hence the entire book became the word of the Buddha." Here's another quote from the same source (as I have the text open) referring to the reciting of the Abhidhamma at the First Council: "Thus at the time of the Rehearsal at the First Council, held by the five hundred, the company of the self-controlled who recited under the presidency of Mahaakassapa did so after previous determination: '[This is the Doctrine, this is the Vinaya], these are the first words, these the middle words, these the later words of the Buddha; this is the Vinaya-Pitaka, this the Suttanta-Pitaka, this the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, this the Diigha Nikaaya.....Khuddaka Nikaaya; these the nine parts, to wit, the Suttas, etc.; these the eightly-four thousand units of text.' And not only this: the various literary expedients appearing in the three Pi.takas such as the lists of contents (uddaana), chapters (vagga), elisions (peyyaala), sections (nipaata) of single, double subjects, etc., groups (sa.myutta), fifties (pa~n~naasa) - all this having been arranged, was rehearsed in seven months." Metta, Sarah p.s.Thx for your other comments which I may respond to another time! ========= #76688 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (18) indriyabala Hi Han (& Nina), - Your Perfection Corner is very good by itself; but with Nina's comments and extensions, this series is excellent. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Tep (Nina), > > Nina has answered your question. So she saved me the > problem of scratching my head to answer your > always-difficult questions. > > The sixfold equanimity of the arahat, that Nina said > as the still greater unworldly equanimity, is > cha.langupekkhaa (cha+anga+upekkhaa), which only > Arahants can achieve. > Right, she satisfactorily answered the question . Tep ==== #76689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 15, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, The path-factor sammå-ditthi can have many degrees. It can be intellectual understanding of kusala and akusala and their results, or paññå which directly understands kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala, or right understanding of nåma and rúpa as non-self. Only right understanding of the true nature of nåma and rúpa will lead to detachment from the “self” and from all realities, and then there will be freedom from the cycle of birth and death. When the noble eightfold Path which leads to the end of rebirth is being developed the object of paññå is a nåma or rúpa which appears at the present moment. Through mindfulness of realities appearing in our daily life sammå-ditthi of the eightfold Path can come to see them as they are, as non-self. Sammå-sankappa, right thinking, is vitakka cetasika which is sobhana. It assists each kusala citta which is intent on wholesomeness, it “touches” the object of wholesomeness. When right thinking is a factor of the noble eightfold Path it has to accompany right understanding, paññå. Right thinking “touches” the nåma or rúpa which appears so that paññå can understand it as it is. As we have seen, this cetasika also functions as jhåna-condition for the accompanying dhammas. A reality can condition other realities in more than one way. There are three cetasikas which are síla, namely: right speech, right action and right livelihood. They are actually the three abstinences or virati cetasikas which are: abstinence from wrong speech (vacíduccarita virati) abstinence from wrong action (kåyaduccarita virati) abstinence from wrong livelihood (åjívaduccarita virati) They may, one at a time, accompany kusala citta when the occasion arises. They do not accompany each kusala citta. While we abstain from wrong action or speech there can be awareness and right understanding of nåma and rúpa. Paññå can realize that the cetasika which abstains from akusala is non-self, that it arises because of its appropriate conditions. When paññå really sees the disadvantage and danger of akusala there are conditions for abstaining from it and there is no need to think, “I shall abstain from akusala”. However, if virati cetasika, the cetasika which abstains from akusala, does not accompany the citta at such a moment there isn’t anybody who can abstain. The three abstinences which accompany cittas of the sense-sphere, kåmåvacara cittas, arise only one at a time. However, when lokuttara citta arises all three abstinences accompany the lokuttara citta and then nibbåna is the object. Thus, the object of the abstinences which are lokuttara is different from the object of the abstinences which accompany cittas of the sense-sphere. ******* Nina. #76690 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:22 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 6, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Some people believe that they can develop calm merely by sitting in a quiet place and concentrating on one object; they believe that if one just concentrates on something there will be calm. Or they want to concentrate with the desire to become relaxed. Then their efforts are motivated by lobha, and this is wrong concentration, micchå samådhi. As Khun Sujin often stressed, we have to return to the paramattha dhammas in order to know what calm is and what concentration is. We have to know their different functions and we have to know when they arise, otherwise we shall only have a vague knowledge about tranquil meditation. Calm and concentration are different cetasikas, they arise because of the appropriate conditions and are non-self. There are two cetasikas which are calm: kåya passaddhi, calm of “body”, and citta passadhi, calm of citta. The word “body” stands here for the mental body, namely cetasikas. Calm of citta conditions calm of the citta it accompanies, and calm of body conditions calm of the accompanying cetasikas. The cetasikas which are “calm” accompany each sobhana (beautiful) citta. Whenever we perform dåna or observe síla these two cetasikas accompany the kusala citta, but we may not notice the characteristic of calm, because the kusala citta falls away very rapidly. Concentration or samådhi is ekaggatå cetasika, a cetasika arising with each citta. Its function is to cause citta to focus on one object. For example, when we see, hear or think ekaggatå cetasika causes citta to focus on the object. It accompanies kusala citta, akusala citta or citta which is neither kusala nor akusala. Thus, not just any kind of concentration is kusala. In samatha calm is developed by means of a suitable meditation subject. The “Visuddhimagga” (in chapters IV-XII) describes forty meditation subjects which can be the means to develop calm. Not just any other meditation subject can be used to this aim. For the development of calm sati and paññå (sati sampajaññå) are indispensable. There must be right understanding of true calm, which is freedom from defilements. Paññå must be very keen to know when akusala citta arises and when kusala citta. This is very difficult because cittas arise and fall away very rapidly. We may easily take for kusala what is akusala, especially when akusala is very subtle. If there is the desire to cause the growth of calm and concentration, one will not reach the aim. Among the meditation subjects are the recollection of the Buddha’s pre-eminent qualities, mettå, loving kindness, or mindfulness of breathing. We may, in daily life, recollect subjects such as the Buddha’s pre-eminent qualities or we may develop mettå. These subjects may condition some moments of calm with kusala citta, but that is not the development of tranquil meditation. In tranquil meditation paññå knows how calm can increase with a meditation subject, and as calm increases, also concentration grows. ******* Nina. #76691 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:44 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (67) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato 2. Rohiniitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 2. The commentary on the verses of Theri Rohinii part 5 281. "Duura"ngamaa satimanto, mantabhaa.nii anuddhataa; dukkhassanta.m pajaananti, tena me sama.naa piyaa. 282. "Yasmaa gaamaa pakkamanti, na vilokenti ki~ncana.m; anapekkhaava gacchanti, tena me sama.naa piyaa. 283. "Na te sa.m ko.t.the openti, na kumbhi.m na kha.lopiya.m; parini.t.thitamesaanaa, tena me sama.naa piyaa. 284. "Na te hira~n~na.m ga.nhanti, na suva.n.na.m na ruupiya.m; paccuppannena yaapenti, tena me sama.naa piyaa. 285. "Naanaakulaa pabbajitaa, naanaajanapadehi ca; a~n~nama~n~na.m pihayanti, tena me sama.naa piyaa. RD: Far and remote they wander, self-possessed; Wise in their words and meek, they know the end Of Ill. Hence are recluses dear to me. (281) And when along the village street they go, At naught they turn to look; incurious They walk. Hence are recluses dear to me. (282) They lay not up a treasure for the flesh, Nor storehouse-jar nor crate. The Perfected Their Quest. Hence are recluses dear to me. (283) They clutch no coin; no gold their hand doth take, Nor silver. For their needs sufficient yields The day. *348 Hence are recluses dear to me. (284) From many a clan and many a countryside They join the Order, mutually bound In love. Hence are recluses dear to me.' (285) *348 This phrase is amplified in Sa.myutta Nikaaya, i. 5: 'They mourn not over the past, nor hanker after the future. They maintain themselves by the present.' Cf. the same attitude prescribed in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. vi. 25-34). PRUITT: 281. Travelling far, possessed of mindfulness, speaking in moderation, not conceited, they comprehend the end of pain. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. 282. If they go from any village, they do not look back [longingly] at anything. They go without longing indeed. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. 283. They do not deposit their property in a storeroom, nor in a pot, nor in a basket, [rather] seeking that which is prepared. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. 284. They do not take gold, coined or uncoined, or silver. They live by means of whatever turns up. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. 285. Those who have gone forth are of various families and from various countries. [Nevertheless], they are friendly to one another. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. .. to be continued, connie #76692 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner 17 and 18. nilovg Dear Han, thank you so much for the excellent quote from the Co. to the Cariyapi.taka. Op 24-sep-2007, om 13:01 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Forbearance and reflective acquiescence (the modes of patience) > are possible only in one possessed of equanimity. -------- N: As to reflective acquiescence, Ven. Bodhi gives elsewhere a note about this. In his book the 'All-embracing Net of Views, in his translation of the Co on the paramis (p. 258), where he explains that khanti is sometimes used 'to signify the intellectual acceptance of doctrines which are not yet completely clear to the understanding. > One has confidence in the Dhamma, one does not become impatient when not everything is clearly understood. ***** Nina. #76693 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:00 am Subject: the Bodhisatta's insight development. to Sarah. nilovg Dear Sarah, I remember that there was a discussion about anuloma ~naa.na of the Bodhisatta when he was Jotipala. In Ven. Bodhi's translation, p. 308 above: the Co states that the Bodhisatta developed insight only as far as purification by knowledge and vision of the way, without attaining purification by knowledge and vision. The footnote says that the latter is supramundane. In the Visuddhimagga (p. 745) there is the Description of Purification by Knowledge and Vision of the Way. I remember that this was discussed with Kh Sujin and the conclusion was: the development was to that extent that it was ready for becoming mature at the moment of enlightenment. I do not know much about this subject, but perhaps this text can throw some light upon the matter? Nina. #76694 From: han tun Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner 17 and 18. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much once again. Respectfully, Han #76695 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Hi Tep (James and others), you wrote: How about we start with exchanging our views(s) on the "mundane right understanding" ? If we do agree on a common theme, then we can call for an open discussion with others. That is what I see as a door to "openness". D: I think it would an good idea to observe the introduction James started with above topic and comment at proper opportunity, wouldn't it? Concerning our exchange on views "mundane right understanding" , we may have a first base through the definition of 'Magga ' by Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary .. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm What do you think? with Metta Dieter P.S.: just a bit curious : you are a Thai residing in US, aren't you? #76696 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Dear Robert (and others), you wrote : 'It was the Chief Editor of the journal who wrote the reply. The WFB were serializing the book about Acharn Mun at the time. They probably have a new editor now, but if you have time , sure, please ask them about this issue.' D: Robert, I assume we agree with Nyanaponika : "..the shock I felt when reading the statement in the 4th section (p.135) that "a number of Buddhas togther with their arahant disciples" had paid a visit to the Acharn to "offer their congratulations upon his achievement". The controversy that understandably arises upon such a statement can I think be conclusively and decisively settled.' However when we refer back to your question "whether it was appropriate for him to write it? If you think it was appropriate then we may have a benchmark of what is an appropriate tone and what isn't". The tone wasn't appropriate , was it? You are long time in Asia and so you know about the issue of 'losing face'........Mana is only abolished in the very advanced Ariyan state . If Nyanaponika would e.g. have written: I stumbled upon... which I assume may be due to some editorial error , as..... .and suggest a correction for the intended serializing the book about Acharn Mun ... the issue of confrontation could have been avoided, don't you think so? Nevertheless I take up your suggestion and wrote to the webmaster of WFB : Subject: World Fellowship of Buddhists Magazine VolXIII no1 (BE2519/1976) Dear Sir, I have a question concerning an article written by the Chief Editor of above mentioned magazine as a response to a letter from Nyanaponika Maha Thera . Would you be so kind to advise an E-Mail address I may contact? Thank you in advance for your support. yours respectfully Dieter Moeller unquote I am not sure whether there will be an answer .. a further step up to you, perhaps a visit to the H.Q. when you are again in Bangkok (?) with Metta Dieter #76697 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Tep, James, and all) - In a message dated 9/24/2007 1:46:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Tep (James and others), you wrote: How about we start with exchanging our views(s) on the "mundane right understanding" ? If we do agree on a common theme, then we can call for an open discussion with others. That is what I see as a door to "openness". D: I think it would an good idea to observe the introduction James started with above topic and comment at proper opportunity, wouldn't it? Concerning our exchange on views "mundane right understanding" , we may have a first base through the definition of 'Magga ' by Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary .. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm What do you think? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: My opinion: A very worthwhile topic! :-) --------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter P.S.: just a bit curious : you are a Thai residing in US, aren't you? ======================= With metta, Howard #76698 From: "tiny" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:03 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 triyinone > > This is hard to say- we are all good and all evil at different times. > I don't think it is beneficial to generalize about the whole > population in such a way. It encourages pessimism and discourages the > radiation of the Brahma-viharas (but I'm not saying categorically it > isn't true ;-)). > Metta, > James > is it not that we are all good, but some do not know it yet. this view will at least give hope. maybe metta tiny #76699 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:31 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. dacostacharles Hi Evelyn, Your story and approach is not uncommon - i.e., you're not alone. I will warn you though; Buddhism has much much more information then religions like Christianity. This is not always a good thing. Its philosophy is like the Atlantic and Pacific oceans combined, compared to that of Christianity which is like a forest. So it is best to focus on the key points - that help you, then you can dive into the ocean or take a walk through the forest - this way it will not matter so much if you get lost.! Peace in Buddha - The Self Love in Christ! - The Other Charles DaCosta _____ #76700 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > In the opening paragraph of this post you say, "di.t.thi carry negative connotations in Buddhism." Then what about sammaa di.t.thi-- the beginning of the Noble Eightfold Path? May be you need to reconsider this statement. > > With mettaa, > > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna > Which ALSO needs to be let go off like a raft after it was used to swim through the ocean. As I remember, "Ditthi" is one of 4 floods. Here Samma Ditthi is SAMMA - harmonious, wholesome. Lots of Metta, Alex #76701 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi Dieter and Howard (James, etc.), - Thanks to you both for moving the "openness" discussion one step ahead. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, Dieter (and Tep, James, and all) - > > In a message dated 9/24/2007 1:46:25 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > moellerdieter@... writes: > > Hi Tep (James and others), > > you wrote: > > How about we start with exchanging our views(s) on the "mundane right understanding" ? If we do agree on a common theme, then we can call for an open discussion with others. That is what I see as a door to "openness". > > D: I think it would an good idea to observe the introduction James started with above topic and comment at proper opportunity, wouldn't it? > > Concerning our exchange on views "mundane right understanding" , we may have a first base through the definition of 'Magga ' by Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary .. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm > What do you think? > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > My opinion: A very worthwhile topic! :-) > --------------------------------------------------- > > > > with Metta Dieter > > P.S.: just a bit curious : you are a Thai residing in US, aren't you? > > > ======================= > With metta, > Howard > > T: Howard is right (again). I agree with your initiative, Dieter. Please proceed. Thanks. Tep === #76702 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... indriyabala Hi Nina, - Earlier we were discussing SN 12.122. >Nina: Thank you for the sutta quote which I appreciate very much. T: You are very welcome ! I also appreciate your remarks. Tep === #76703 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:51 pm Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 4 sukinderpal Dear Nina,( Scott and Tep), > S: My own case, even though I have no problem accepting the 4NT and > would even consider myself to have more confidence in the Triple Gem > than most, ---------- > N: Only kusala citta is accompanied by confidence, but since there > are more akusala cittas than kusala cittas, I for myself can say: > there is not much confidence. I agree, the listening is never > enough, seeing the layers of self deception. Sukin: Thank you very much for this reminder. This is an example of thinking conventionally, and not in a way that makes it equally valid, but actually quite misleading. So no excuse this time. ;-) I'm thinking this with hindsight, which is different from real-time, but it is useful to reflect, I think. That above statement of mine seems to have been conditioned by self-view. The tendency to form and get lost in stories about "self" is strong and I'd say potentially very misleading. This has also caused me to reflect on the difficulty some friends here have with the Abhidhamma perspective. That it helps cut through thinking in terms of wholes and stories depends to a good extent; on the listener's own `understanding'. That I'm incapable of applying the lessons myself and make the same mistakes I accuse others of making, should arouse at least some sympathy towards them. I know that I've said that I'm more interested in discussing the basics, but how often I'm happy to just point out their mistakes? Between two discussants, one grounded in the Abhidhamma perspective of the `present moment' and the other who has developed a "dhamma theory" more from a conventional perspective, no agreement seems to ever be reached. Even if it seems that they agree over a particular point, this seems to be more that while one is thinking in terms of momentary realities, the other is thinking about the same `concept' conventionally. I wonder if this is Scott's motivation to be discussing the Abhidhamma with Tep, starting from the very beginning. I'm very interested to see how that one goes. Thanks again Nina, for being a good Dhamma friend. I'm sure I'll be making the same mistakes over and over. This has also caused me to wonder whether, self-view, when still very much part of the accumulations, does it arise by NDS condition, more towards certain objects than others? Metta, Sukin #76704 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:55 pm Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch 15, no 5. indriyabala Hi Nina (and others), - Your message #76689 is very condensed. So please allow me to divide it into six parts and separately comment on each. Kindly respond to the comments and/or correct any error, if you wish. 1) N: The path-factor sammå-ditthi can have many degrees. It can be intellectual understanding of kusala and akusala and their results, or paññå which directly understands kusala as kusala and akusala as akusala, or right understanding of nåma and rúpa as non-self. T: In MN 9, Sammaditthi Sutta, the great Arahant Sariputta asked, "'One of right view, one of right view' is said, friends. In what way is a noble disciple one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" Then he went on to give the following 16 ways that define the right view of a "noble disciple". In other words, these 16 ways are the knowledges of the Four Noble Truths with respect to the links of the Dependent Origination plus a few more things. 1.1 a noble disciple understands the unwholesome(akusala), the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome(kusala), and the root of the wholesome. 1.2 a noble disciple understands nutriment(ahara), the origin of nutriment, the cessation of nutriment, and the way leading to the cessation of nutriment. 1.3 a noble disciple understands suffering(dukkha), the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the way leading to the cessation of suffering. 1.4 a noble disciple understands aging and death(jara-marana), the origin of aging and death, the cessation of aging and death, and the way leading to the cessation of aging and death. 1.5 a noble disciple understands birth(jati), the origin of birth, the cessation of birth, and the way leading to the cessation of birth. 1.6 a noble disciple understands being(bhava), the origin of being, the cessation of being, and the way leading to the cessation of being. 1.7 a noble disciple understands clinging(upadana), the origin of clinging, the cessation of clinging, and the way leading to the cessation of clinging. 1.8 a noble disciple understands craving(tanha), the origin of craving, the cessation of craving, and the way leading to the cessation of craving. 1.9 a noble disciple understands feeling(vedana), the origin of feeling, the cessation of feeling, and the way leading to the cessation of feeling. 1.10 a noble disciple understands contact(phassa), the origin of contact, the cessation of contact, and the way leading to the cessation of contact. 1.11 a noble disciple understands the sixfold base(ayatana), the origin of the sixfold base, the cessation of the sixfold base, and the way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base. 1.12 a noble disciple understands mentality-materiality(nama & rupa), the origin of mentality-materiality, the cessation of mentality- materiality, and the way leading to the cessation of mentality- materiality. 1/13 a noble disciple understands consciousness(citta), the origin of consciousness, the cessation of consciousness, and the way leading to the cessation of consciousness. 1.14 a noble disciple understands formations(sankhara), the origin of formations, the cessation of formations, and the way leading to the cessation of formations. 1.15 a noble disciple understands ignorance(avijja), the origin of ignorance, the cessation of ignorance, and the way leading to the cessation of ignorance. 1.16 a noble disciple understands the taints (asava), the origin of the taints, the cessation of the taints, and the way leading to the cessation of the taints. 2) N: Only right understanding of the true nature of nåma and rúpa will lead to detachment from the "self" and from all realities, and then there will be freedom from the cycle of birth and death. T: Right view of the nåma and rúpa is only one of the 16 ways as shown above. 3) N: When the noble eightfold Path which leads to the end of rebirth is being developed the object of paññå is a nåma or rúpa which appears at the present moment. Through mindfulness of realities appearing in our daily life sammå-ditthi of the eightfold Path can come to see them as they are, as non-self. T: The realities that appear in our daily life also include "concepts" such as food as nutriment, birth, ageing-and- death, the aggregates in the past and future, gross and subtle, far and near, and so on. MN 141 (Sacca-vibhanga Sutta): "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth. "And what is aging? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging. "And what is death? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death. 4) Sammå-sankappa, right thinking, is vitakka cetasika which is sobhana. It assists each kusala citta which is intent on wholesomeness, it "touches" the object of wholesomeness. When right thinking is a factor of the noble eightfold Path it has to accompany right understanding, paññå. Right thinking "touches" the nåma or rúpa which appears so that paññå can understand it as it is. As we have seen, this cetasika also functions as jhåna-condition for the accompanying dhammas. T: Samma-sankappa (right resolve) are thoughts free from sensuous desire, from ill-will, and from cruelty. MN 117: "And what is the right resolve that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness. This is the right resolve that has fermentations, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions. "And what is the right resolve that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, resolve, mental absorption, mental fixity, focused awareness, & verbal fabrications in one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is without fermentations, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right resolve that is without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. 5) A reality can condition other realities in more than one way. There are three cetasikas which are síla, namely: right speech, right action and right livelihood. They are actually the three abstinences or virati cetasikas which are: abstinence from wrong speech (vacíduccarita virati) abstinence from wrong action (kåyaduccarita virati) abstinence from wrong livelihood (åjívaduccarita virati) They may, one at a time, accompany kusala citta when the occasion arises. They do not accompany each kusala citta. T: It might be useful to compare the above writing with Sacca- vibhanga Sutta. MN 141 (Sacca-vibhanga Sutta): "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech. "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from sexual misconduct: This is called right action. "And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood. 6) While we abstain from wrong action or speech there can be awareness and right understanding of nåma and rúpa. Paññå can realize that the cetasika which abstains from akusala is non-self, that it arises because of its appropriate conditions. When paññå really sees the disadvantage and danger of akusala there are conditions for abstaining from it and there is no need to think, "I shall abstain from akusala". However, if virati cetasika, the cetasika which abstains from akusala, does not accompany the citta at such a moment there isn't anybody who can abstain. T: According to Arahant Sariputta and the Buddha, Paññå that truly understands the nåma and rúpa does not arise directly from abstaining from akusala dhamma. If there is no gladness (pamojja) due to non- remorse, then there cannot be happiness(piiti). Without piiti as supporting condition, there is no tranquillity(passaddhi). If there is no passaddhi due to piiti, then there is no concentration (samaadhi). Without samaadhi as supporting condition, there is no right understanding(yathabhuta~naana dassana) of the nåma and rúpa and the Four Noble Truths cannot be penetrated. [Patisambhidamagga. Treatise I, 409] Tep === #76705 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:54 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 rjkjp1 Dear Dieter I hope they reply! But I don't feel so interested to visit them, too many other things to do. Robert #76706 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Scott: Just a couple. I appreciate the work the post must have taken but I hope it wasn't posted just to be admired... > I hope that it doesn't. A good constructive criticism is welcomed. Self conceit is NOT what I am after. > A: "I was thinking about the notion of Ditthi, epistemology, ontology > of Buddha...Then it dawned on me: when someone takes a dependently > arisen and constantly changing process, cuts out some event and > reifies it, then in accordance with individual preferences one infers > some theory to justify one's conscious or subconscious craving. A > misguided philosopher makes logical inductions, deductions and > speculations about various sense impressions he experiences." > > Scott: All philosophers are misguided. Are you also a philosopher? I was a philosopher. I am trying not to be one. Basically what you are asking is "Are you (Alex) making an inference, logical inductions, deductions and speculations" ? I trust in the Buddha because what he says is based on hindrance free experience without any taint of subjectivism. I have also had my own VERY little experiences especially with existence/non-existence being dependent on sense-contact. I was quite familiar with quiet a few philosophical thoughts and can argue some positions well (also they are but a memory now and their pointlessness fuels me following Buddha's teaching). > > Scott: Is an 'interesting experience during/after meditation' of more > value than any other conceptual fabrication, say, an interesting > experience during/after washing dishes? >>>>>> After/during meditation you have suppressed hindrances which allow insight to happen. Unless you have hindrance free mind with proper attention (yoniso manasikara) during ordinary activities, meditation is better. During Buddha's time there WERE people who gained insight through seeing mundane things (like lamp going out, heron eating fish, beautiful lady walking where only the teeth were seen). However two things stand out a) They probably meditated A LOT. Maybe 20 hours a day for weeks at a time so they had b)Suppressed Hindrances. c) Proper attention > Please don't reply if the above seems to you to be too pointed or > critical. I hope you can continue to interact with others on the > list. There is much valuable discussion going on. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > I hope you continue to offer helpful critique/ questions Lots of Metta, Alex #76707 From: "colette" Date: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:47 pm Subject: Re: Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. ksheri3 Hi Scott, (clears throat) Alex, (it was bound to happen wasn't it) colette: Scott, you've got some interesting thoughts, as always, and along comes our past Philosopher Alex, who has some interesting thoughts, although I think they're more limiting than expanding. I love this one, take for instance the expansiveness of the sky: it's all blue and it certainly is all up there. While WEstern mythology plays with the concept of the sky falling take for instance a buddhist considering the sky falling. How would you visualize the sky falling? It can't fall in seperate pieces then it wouldn't be the sky since the sky is either the sky or it is not therefore if the sky falls here it also falls there. So, an equality must be akin to a pancake fresh off the grill. The pancake doesn't cover one thing here and nothing there, if the sky, as a pancake, falls and it falls here as well as there THEN the pancake is all inclusive, when it smothers it smothers everything. Can the pancake be blue? But I want to get into this post below. So, "Lets go space truckin'" Deep Purple. Alex: > I hope that it doesn't. A good constructive criticism is welcomed. > Self conceit is NOT what I am after. > colette: That, has yet to be proven, it is possible that you are in possession of self-conceit, I forget what the buddhist word for that was, and that your advice may mesmerize others to the conceit for your SELF. ------------------------------------------ > > > A: "I was thinking about the notion of Ditthi, epistemology, > ontology > > of Buddha... colette: I have problems with those concepts Ditthi, epistemology, and ontology since I may have their definitions laying around somewhere I know for a fact that people schooled in philosophy and logic use these words without thinking and there is something to these words, I have very little ideas as to their meanings, but that doesn't end any and all communications so lets press on. ------------------------------------- Then it dawned on me: when someone takes a dependently > > arisen and constantly changing process, cuts out some event and > > reifies it, then in accordance with individual preferences one > infers > > some theory to justify one's conscious or subconscious craving. colette: this is very good! Thank you. The above process that Alex speaks of is done every day by every body. I think that only those that have a lot of experience with meditations can actually see this happening as it is happening and know that it is happening. I know I do it all the time, constantly, day in and day out. And just who am I gonna say it to, what I see happening when I see it happening? People would think I'm nuts. I think it was Lucy Stafford, back in 2004 on a Western mysteries forum who was one of the people discussing the multiple personalities we certainly possess. In the Mahamudra I believe there's a process to purify mind, the subconscious is what I always seek to root out, is it Semde? Londe deals with Space? Semde deals with Time? Which is what Alex was speaking of later in his reply to Scott. He's speaking of a Past Dharma, a Past Conditioning. ------------------------- Alex > > A misguided philosopher makes logical inductions, deductions and > > speculations about various sense impressions he experiences." > > colette: why does the philosopher have to be misguided before making these speculations? Can't a philosopher like say Karl Rove or GWB or even Dicky Cheney have made speculations such as "Iraq has weapons of mass distruction"? What makes their speculations sane or "guided" especially after all these yrs. and they haven't even dug their own grave site yet. But they sure put the rest of us in the hole they dug. ------------------------------------------------- > > Scott: All philosophers are misguided. Are you also a philosopher? > > I was a philosopher. I am trying not to be one. Basically what you > are asking is "Are you (Alex) making an inference, logical > inductions, deductions and speculations" ? colette: there's another word I'm not too comfortable using, "inference". I got the basic jist of the word but that doesn't mean that I'm comfortable using it. It still causes me to stop and think and then place the thought of the word into the sentence when read again. ----------------------------------------- I trust in the Buddha > because what he says is based on hindrance free experience without > any taint of subjectivism. colette: that is a faith. A belief in the buddha's honesty. The dharma is empty, don't ya know. --------------------------------- I have also had my own VERY little > experiences especially with existence/non-existence being dependent > on sense-contact. colette: that is exactly why the dharmas were written, told to the sangha or community. Now we can go into more deeper ways of EXPERIENCING SUNYATA and because when these approaches are taken, such as Tantra, et al, the sense-consciousnesses are the only things that come with us. Let me try to put this in terms of my first Near Death Experience in 1978. The sense consciousnesses were conditioned. That conditioning is what I took with me, here the conditioning is also said to be the same as the "memory of". This is what I had in this "other consciousness" and it was a complete consciousness totally filled, no gaps, but if I had no memory of experiencing it and only had memory of what I was trained to think it was and would be like then I could not completely experience it. <....> ------------------------------------- I was quite familiar with quiet a few philosophical > thoughts and can argue some positions well (also they are but a > memory now and their pointlessness fuels me following Buddha's > teaching). colette: maybe the reason you are driven to follow the Buddha's teachings is because those pointless philosophical memories are lingering in your subconscious and you catch them rising to consciousness when you study the Buddha's teaachings. -=------------------------ > > > > > > > Scott: Is an 'interesting experience during/after meditation' of > more > > value than any other conceptual fabrication, say, an interesting > > experience during/after washing dishes? > >>>>>> > > After/during meditation you have suppressed hindrances which allow > insight to happen. colette: I do not agree, TECHNICALLY. Why are hindrances suppressed during meditation when the hindrances can be the object of meditation or they can be one of the key constituent parts of the meditation and therefore would be highly active, under the spotlight, microscope. This is a good way to get to the ROOTS. ---------------------------------- Unless you have hindrance free mind with proper > attention colette: the Clear Light, no? (yoniso manasikara) during ordinary activities, meditation > is better. Sorry all, I've gotta go. Too much noise in the house at this hour and they don't like it. toodles, colette <...> #76708 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Response to Phil - Part 4 nilovg Dear Sukin, Op 25-sep-2007, om 3:51 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > N: Only kusala citta is accompanied by confidence, but since there > > are more akusala cittas than kusala cittas, I for myself can say: > > there is not much confidence. I agree, the listening is never > > enough, seeing the layers of self deception. > > Sukin: Thank you very much for this reminder. > This is an example of thinking conventionally, and not in a way that > makes it equally valid, but actually quite misleading. So no excuse > this > time. ;-) --------- > N: But this is a very common mistake we make all the time. It is > very natural for us! > When I ask Kh Sujin: how can I know the difference between sati and > thinking, she will ask: who is aware? Awareness is aware. As you express it well: > < The tendency to form and get lost in > stories about "self" is strong and I'd say potentially very > misleading. > -------- > > S: Thanks again Nina, for being a good Dhamma friend. I'm sure I'll be > making the same mistakes over and over. This has also caused me to > wonder whether, self-view, when still very much part of the > accumulations, does it arise by NDS condition, more towards certain > objects than others? -------- N: We all make the same mistakes over and over, the usual thing. It is tough, but we should not be impatient. Self view: the latent tendency of wrong view causes that. One of the conditions is natural strong dependence condition, as you say. I am not sure we can point out special objects. It depends on the individual's inclinations at which occasions the latent tendency of wrong view conditions the arising of akusala citta with wrong view which also includes wrong practice. Unknowingly one may slightly deviate from the right Path. ------------- Sukin's post to Dieter: Abhidhamma on the other hand, when understood properly, being about realities, is encouraging of less attachment to concepts. So in fact the question of ivory tower mind does not come in. That it appears to someone as such is perhaps due to the person's own attachment to some particular `view' and concepts. In other words, the failure to be truly practical. ;-) ------- N: I like the way you explain about the ivory tower idea not coming in. ================ > D: So far I assume that the Abhidhamma aimed to be a kind of manual for those close to the level of Ven.Sariputta ( and the legend speaks for that) and that the benefit of this teaching is missed when the context with the conventional teaching is lost. Sukin: Or rather it is missed, when the conventional teachings are taken to be involving *real* persons and situations, when in fact the message it means to deliver for us the more slow ones, is the importance of making the reality / concept distinction, the sooner the better. ;-) ------ N: Good reminder; the sooner the better. Nina. #76709 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 nilovg Dear Tiny, I did not see your name before. If you are new, welcome to our group. ------------- This is hard to say- we are all good and all evil at different times. > I don't think it is beneficial to generalize about the whole > population in such a way. It encourages pessimism and discourages the > radiation of the Brahma-viharas (but I'm not saying categorically it > isn't true ;-)). > Metta, > James > Tiny: is it not that we are all good, but some do not know it yet. this view will at least give hope. maybe ------- N: We have accumulated both good tendencies and evil tendencies. We can find out that attachment to colour, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object arises time and again. Very seldom there is detachment. We think mostly of ourselves, and seldom of others. The Buddha showed the way to having less attachment, aversion and ignorance and finally to eradicate them. The Buddha's teaching can fill us with confidence. There is a way to have less defilements, it is understanding of all phenomena of our life. Very gradually this understanding can be developed and thus there is no reason for pessimism. Nina. #76710 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:27 am Subject: Re: Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "I was a philosopher. I am trying not to be one. Basically what you are asking is "Are you (Alex) making an inference, logical inductions, deductions and speculations" ? I trust in the Buddha because what he says is based on hindrance free experience without any taint of subjectivism. I have also had my own VERY little experiences especially with existence/non-existence being dependent on sense-contact. I was quite familiar with quiet a few philosophical thoughts and can argue some positions well (also they are but a memory now and their pointlessness fuels me following Buddha's teaching)." Scott: I don't really care for what I think, although I keep offering these things up anyway. Go figure. The Dhamma, on the other hand, is precious, no doubt about it. I definitely appreciate your trust in the Buddha. A: "After/during meditation you have suppressed hindrances which allow insight to happen. Unless you have hindrance free mind with proper attention (yoniso manasikara) during ordinary activities, meditation is better." Scott: As Mahaa-Mogallaana says, 'either the object overcomes the monk or the monk overcomes the object', (I paraphrase, of course, Kindred Sayings IV, Sa.laayatana-vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, Fourth Fifty, chapter V, 202, Lustful). The 'monk' isn't a person. Wise attention (yoniso manasikaara) either arises or it doesn't, I guess, and in the moment it does I think it can be condition for the non-arising of the taints. Someone will have to correct me here if I go astray. The point is, being a cetasika, manasikaara can be either kusala or akusala according to the jati of the citta with which it arises conascently and it takes developed pa~n~naa to know the difference. A: "During Buddha's time there WERE people who gained insight through seeing mundane things (like lamp going out, heron eating fish, beautiful lady walking where only the teeth were seen). However two things stand out..." Scott: The above gaining of insight, I think, refers to satipa.t.thaana and the development of pa~n~naa. This is bhaavanaa (mental development), isnt' it? The development of pa~n~naa bit by bit based on any dhamma arising in any doorway and being known. I think one must take care in how one understands phrases such as, 'people who gained insight through seeing mundane things'. By insight, I think, one is referring to pa~n~naa. Pa~n~naa is a cetasika and, like manasikaara, it arises conascently with kusala citta. The above does not, in my opinion, refer to thoughts one has about the way this or that is. These are thoughts and are not too be taken all that seriously. (I'm still considering 'thoughts' though. There is the reality which 'thinks' - which has thoughts as object, there is right thinking, but these are mental factors in the moment - anyway, that's another thread). "...a) They probably meditated A LOT. Maybe 20 hours a day for weeks at a time so they had b)Suppressed Hindrances. c) Proper attention" Scott: Here, I think, you are referring to jhaana. It is pa~n~naa, not ekaggattaa or samadhi or the absorptions per se, that develops and leads to the arising of the Path. I'd say that the gaining of insight, to repeat myself, reflected the development of pa~n~naa, not the development of samadhi. Corrections, as always, please. Sincerely, Scott. #76711 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:40 am Subject: Re: Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. scottduncan2 Good Morning colette, Careful: colette: "Scott, you've got some interesting thoughts, as always..." Scott: And that's about all they are. Kind of you, as always, to take interest. C: "and along comes our past Philosopher Alex, who has some interesting thoughts, although I think they're more limiting than expanding. I love this one, take for instance the expansiveness of the sky: it's all blue and it certainly is all up there. While WEstern mythology plays with the concept of the sky falling take for instance a buddhist considering the sky falling. How would you visualize the sky falling? It can't fall in seperate pieces then it wouldn't be the sky since the sky is either the sky or it is not therefore if the sky falls here it also falls there. So, an equality must be akin to a pancake fresh off the grill. The pancake doesn't cover one thing here and nothing there, if the sky, as a pancake, falls and it falls here as well as there THEN the pancake is all inclusive, when it smothers it smothers everything. Can the pancake be blue?" Scott: Sky Pilot Sky Pilot How high can you fly? You'll never, never, never, reach the sky (The Animals, and Eric Burdon, if I'm not mistaken). Peace, colette. Sincerely, Scott. #76712 From: "tom" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:50 am Subject: How to approach it? zorroelbueno Where is the need of changing anything? The mind is changing anyhow all the time. Look at your mind dispassionately; this is enough to calm it. When it is quiet, you can go beyond it. Do not keep it busy all the time. Stop it, and just be. If you give it rest, it will settle down and recover its purity and strength. Constant thinking makes it decay. (311) Nisargadatta #76713 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:08 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (67) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato 2. Rohiniitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 2. The commentary on the verses of Theri Rohinii part 6 286. "Atthaaya vata no bhoti, kule jaataasi rohinii; saddhaa buddhe ca dhamme ca, sa"nghe ca tibbagaaravaa. 287. "Tuva~nheta.m pajaanaasi, pu~n~nakkhetta.m anuttara.m; amhampi ete sama.naa, pa.tigga.nhanti dakkhi.na.m. 288. "Pati.t.thito hettha ya~n~no, vipulo no bhavissati; sace bhaayasi dukkhassa, sace te dukkhamappiya.m. 289. "Upehi sara.na.m buddha.m, dhamma.m sa"ngha~nca taadina.m; samaadiyaahi siilaani, ta.m te atthaaya hehiti. 290. "Upemi sara.na.m buddha.m, dhamma.m sa"ngha~nca taadina.m; samaadiyaami siilaani, ta.m me atthaaya hehiti. 291. "Brahmabandhu pure aasi.m, so idaanimhi braahma.no; tevijjo sottiyo camhi, vedaguu camhi nhaatako"ti.- Imaa gaathaa paccudaahaasi. RD: 'Now truly for our weal, O Rohi.nii, Wert thou a daughter born into this house! Thy trust is in the Buddha and the Norm And in the Order; keen thy piety. (286) For well thou know'st this is the Field supreme Where merit may be wrought. We too henceforth Will minister ourselves to holy men. For thereby shall accrue to our account A record of oblations bounteous.' (287) 'If Ill thou fearest, if thou like it not, Go thou and seek the Buddha and the Norm, And Order for thy refuge; learn of them And keep the Precepts. So shalt thou find weal.' *349 (288) 'Lo! to the Buddha, I for refuge go And to the Norm and Order. I will learn Of them to take upon myself and keep The Precepts. So shall I indeed find weal. (289) Once but a son of brahmins born was I. To-day I stand brahmin in very deed. The nobler Threefold Wisdom have I won, Won the true Veda-lore, and graduate Am I from better Sacrament returned, Cleansed by the inward spiritual bath.' *350 (290) For the brahmin, established in the Refuges and the Precepts, when later on he became alarmed, renounced the world, and, developing insight, was established in Arahantship. Reflecting on his attainment, he exulted in that last verse. *349 I.e., she referred him to the true source of the 'weal' he imputed to her. The rest is borrowed from Ps. lxv. *350 Cf. Psalm lxv. /Sona PRUITT: [Rohinii's father:] 286. Truly for our sake, lady, you were born in [our] family, Rohinii. You have faith in the Buddha and the Doctrine and keen reverence for the Order. 287. You indeed comprehend this unsurpassed field of merit. These ascetics [will] receive our gift too, for among them an extensive sacrifice will be set up for us. [Rohinii:] 288. If you are afraid of pain, if pain is unpleasant for you, go to the venerable Buddha as a refuge, to the Doctrine, and to the Order. Undertake the rules of virtuous conduct. That will be to your advantage. [Rohinii's father:] 289. I go to the venerable Buddha as a refuge, to the Doctrine, and to the Order. I undertake the rules of virtuous conduct. That will be to my advantage. 290 {{-291}}. Formerly I was a kinsman of Brahmaa. Now I am [truly] a brahman. I possess the triple knowledge and am versed in sacred lore and have complete mastery of knowledge. And I am washed clean. ===to be continued, with the Pali & English verse numbers one off for awhile. peace, connie #76714 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:18 am Subject: Puggala pa~n~natti hantun1 Dear Nina, In my message #75715, I wrote to you the following: “If “no-being” is what the Buddha teaches, I wonder why he would have taken all the trouble to expound the Puggalapannatti, the fourth of seven Abhidhamma books, which shows the designation of individuals, classified in ten chapters of the book, after the manner of enumeration employed in Anguttara Nikaya?” ---------- In your reply message #75738, you wrote the following: “N: Human Types by One, 27: Here: possessor is a concept, the six superknowledges are paramattha dhammas. This whole work actually deals with paramattha dhammas, citta and cetasikas. It is explained by way of: a person who... but it points to paramattha dhammas. Is this not about citta and cetasikas?” ------------------------------ Han: As my knowledge on this subject is limited, I cannot argue against you. But there is one point which is still bothering me. In Puggala pa~n~natti Maatikaa, it is mentioned as follows: “Cha pa~n~nattiyo: (1) khandha pa~n~natti, (2) aayatana pa~n~natti, (3) dhaatu pa~n~natti, (4) sacca pa~n~natti,(5) indriya pa~n~natti, (6) puggala pa~n~nattii ti.” (1) Kittaavataa khandhaanam khandha pa~n~natti: yaavataa pa~ncakkhandho: ruupakkhandho vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho sankhaarakkhandho vi~n~naa.nakkhandho. Ettaavataa khandhaanam khandha pa~n~natti. (2) Kittaavataa aayatanaanam aayatana pa~n~natti: yaavataa dvaadasaayatanaani: cakkhaayatanam ruupaayatanam sotaayatanam saddaayatanam ghaanaayatanam gandhaayatanam jivhaayatanam rasaayatanam kaayaayatanam photthabbaayatanam manaayatanam dhammaayatanam. Ettaavataa aayatanaanam aayatana pa~n~natti. (3) Kittaavataa dhaatuunam dhaatupa~n~natti: yaavataa atthaarasadhaatuyo: cakkhudhaatu ruupadhaatu cakkhuvi~n~naa,nadhaatu, sotadhaatu saddadhaatu sotavi~n~naa.nadhaatu, ghaanadhaatu gandhadhaatu ghaanavi~n~naa.nadhaatu, jivhaadhaatu rasadhaatu jivhaavi~n~naa.nadhaatu, kaayadhaatu photthabbadhaatu kaayavi~n~naa.nadhaatu, manodhaatu dhammadhaatu manovi~n~naa.nadhaatu. Ettaavataa dhaatuunam dhaatu pa~n~natti. (4) Kittaavataa saccaanam sacca pa~n~natti: yaavataa cattaari saccaani, dukkhasaccam samudayasaccam nirodhasaccam maggasaccam. Ettaavataa saccaanam sacca pa~n~natti. (5) Kittaavataa indriyaanam indriyaanam indriya pa~n~natti: yaavataa baaviisatindriyaani: cakkhundriyam sotindriyam ghaanindriyam jivhindriyam kaayindriyam manindriyam itthindriyam purisindriyam jiivitindriyam sukhindriyam dukkhindriyam somanassindriyam domanassindriyam upekkhindriyam saddhindriyam viriyindriyam satindriyam samaadhindriyam pa~n~nindriyam ana~n~naata~n~nassaamiitindriyam a~n~nindriyam a~n~naataavindriyam. Ettaavataa indriyaanam indriya pa~n~natti. (6) Kittaavataa puggalaana puggala pa~n~natti: Here, 54 puggalas are mentioned. ------------------------------ Han: If puggala pa~n~natti is just about cittas and cetasikas, why it is mentioned as a separate sixth group as puggala pa~n~natti? If it is just cittas and cetasikas can’t the preceding five groupos cover them, without the need to have the sixth puggala pa~n~natti group? Why is it that 54 puggalas are mentioned under this group if there are no puggalas? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #76715 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:29 am Subject: Re: How to approach it? scottduncan2 Dear Tom, Regarding: "Where is the need of changing anything? The mind is changing anyhow all the time. Look at your mind dispassionately; this is enough to calm it. When it is quiet, you can go beyond it. Do not keep it busy all the time. Stop it, and just be. If you give it rest, it will settle down and recover its purity and strength. Constant thinking makes it decay. (311) Nisargadatta" Scott: Is this the guy? "Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj was born in Mumbai (Bombay) in March, 1897. His parents, who gave him the name Maruti...When Maruti was 34, a friend of his, Yashwantrao Baagkar, introduced him to his guru, Sri Siddharameshwar Maharaj, the head of the Inchegeri branch of the Navanath Sampradaya. The guru gave a mantra and some instructions to Maruti and died soon after...Sri Nisargadatta's teachings defy summarization, but he frequently recommended the practice that had led to his own realization in less than three years: Just keep in mind the feeling 'I am,' merge in it, till your mind and feeling become one. By repeated attempts you will stumble on the right balance of attention and affection and your mind will be firmly established in the thought-feeling 'I am.'" http://www.realization.org/page/topics/nisargadatta.htm Scott: 'Constant thinking makes [the mind] decay'. What did they say about onanism? Causes blindness? Sincerely (with tongue fully in cheek), Scott. #76716 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:21 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 6, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, If one has accumulated the inclination and skill for the development of calm, one may attain jhåna, absorption concentration. However, paññå must be very keen and many conditions have to be fulfilled. There are different stages of jhåna, and at each subsequent stage there is a higher degree of calm. At the moments of jhånacitta there are no sense impressions and defilements are temporarily subdued, but they are not eradicated. There are stages of rúpa-jhåna, material jhåna, where the meditation subjects are still dependent on materiality, and there are stages of arúpa-jhåna, immaterial jhåna, where the meditation subject is no longer dependent on materiality. Arúpa-jhåna is more refined than rúpa-jhåna. One should acquire “mastery” (vasí), great skill in jhåna, if one wants to develop higher stages of jhåna. We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (IV, 131) that one should have “mastery” in adverting to the jhåna, in entering it, in determining its duration, in emerging from it and in reviewing it. Even before the Buddha’s time people developed tranquil meditation to the stages of rúpa-jhåna and arúpa-jhåna in order to temporarily subdue defilements, but these could not be eradicated. The Buddha found the Path leading to the complete eradication of defilements, and this is the development of satipatthåna. The objects of satipatthåna are paramattha dhammas, they are any nåma or rúpa which is appearing at the present moment; one does not select any special object. The aim of the development of satipatthåna is eradication of clinging to the self and eventually of all defilements. Some people wonder whether it is necessary first to develop samatha and after that vipassanå. The Buddha did not set any rules with regard to samatha as a requirement for the development of insight. Individual inclinations are different. It depends on one’s accumulated inclinations whether one applies oneself to tranquil meditation or not. Some people developed both samatha and vipassanå, but for the attainment of enlightenment they still had to develop right understanding of all nåmas and rúpas. They had to acquire the “masteries”, so that they at any time could enter jhåna or emerge from it, and after having emerged from jhåna they could be mindful of realities, including the jhånacitta and accompanying jhåna-factors which are cetasikas. Otherwise they would take the jhånacitta for self. If people had great skill in jhåna and could be aware of the jhånacitta, jhåna was a foundation for the development of insight. ******* Nina. #76717 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:27 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 15, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, The abstinences which are lokuttara are the right speech, the right action and the right livelihood of the supramundane eightfold Path. They fulfill their function of path-factors by eradicating the conditions for wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. The tendencies to these kinds of evil conduct are eradicated at the subsequent stages of enlightenment. The magga-citta (path- consciousness) as well as the phala-citta (fruition-consciousness), which is the result of the magga-citta and immediately succeeds it in the same process, are accompanied by all three abstinences. Right action, right speech and right livelihood do not accompany the mahå- kiriyacitta of the arahat. He has eradicated all akusala and therefore there is no need for him to abstain from akusala. Neither do the three abstinences accompany jhånacitta since the jhånacitta is remote from sense impressions and there is thus no opportunity to abstain from the defilements connected with sense impressions. Sammå-våyåma or right effort is another factor of the right path. It is viriya cetasika (energy or effort) which strengthens and supports the accompanying dhammas so that they are intent on kusala. When it accompanies right understanding of the noble eightfold Path it is energy and courage to persevere being aware of nåma and rúpa which appear. When there is mindfulness of nåma and rúpa right effort has arisen already because of conditions and it performs its function; there is no need to think of making an effort. When we think, “I can exert effort, I can strive”, with an idea of self who can do so, there is akusala citta which desires to reach the goal. There is wrong effort without our noticing it. Right effort, when it accompanies right understanding, supports the other factors of the eightfold Path, but we should remember that it arises because of its own conditions, that it is non-self. We read in the “Gradual Sayings” (Book of the Threes, Ch V, § 49, Ardent energy): Monks, on three occasions ardent energy is to be exerted. What three? To prevent the arising of evil, unprofitable states not yet arisen; to cause the arising of good, profitable states not yet arisen; to endure bodily feelings that have arisen, feelings which are painful, sharp, bitter, acute, distressing and unwelcome, which drain the life away. These are the three occasions... Now when a monk exerts himself on these three occasions, he is called “strenuous, shrewd and mindful for making an end of dukkha.” This sutta reminds us that right effort has to accompany right understanding, otherwise there cannot be the development of all the conditioning factors leading to the end of dukkha. Since we are born, there are conditions for sickness and pain, we cannot control our body. Also at such moments right understanding can be developed. Then there is right effort performing its function of supporting the associated dhammas. ******* Nina. #76718 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:03 am Subject: Q. Re: [dsg] Re: Conditions, Ch 15, no 5. nilovg Dear Tep, Thank you for all the quotes. I will do snipping in order not to make my reply too long. Op 25-sep-2007, om 3:55 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > 1) N: The path-factor sammå-ditthi can have many degrees. It can be > intellectual understanding of kusala and akusala and their results, > or paññå which directly understands kusala as kusala and akusala as > akusala, or right understanding of nåma and rúpa as non-self. > > T: In MN 9, Sammaditthi Sutta, the great Arahant Sariputta > asked, "'One of right view, one of right view' is said, friends. In > what way is a noble disciple one of right view, whose view is > straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived > at this true Dhamma?" ------- N: These levels are very high. In my ch on Path-condition I deal also with path factor in its widest sense, not only as factor of the noble eightfold Path. My subject is all the classes of conditions. > > ----------- > 2) N: Only right understanding of the true nature of nåma and rúpa > will lead to detachment from the "self" and from all realities, and > then there will be freedom from the cycle of birth and death. > > T: Right view of the nåma and rúpa is only one of the 16 ways as > shown above. ---------- N: In fact they all deal with paramattha dhammas, nama and rupa, but they are partly explained by way of conventional terms, such as birth, ageing and death. I shall return to this point. --------- > > 3) N: When the noble eightfold Path which leads to the end of rebirth > is being developed the object of paññå is a nåma or rúpa which > appears at the present moment. Through mindfulness of realities > appearing in our daily life sammå-ditthi of the eightfold Path can > come to see them as they are, as non-self. > > T: The realities that appear in our daily life also > include "concepts" such as food as nutriment, birth, ageing-and- > death, the aggregates in the past and future, gross and subtle, far > and near, and so on. --------- N: Concepts are not the objects of vipassana. Nutriment is a condition dealing with nama and rupa. The five khandhas are nothing else but conditioned nama and rupa. The concepts birth, ageing and death bring us back to the present reality. We have to understand birth and death in the highest sense, of nama and rupa appearing now. I take the Co to the Sammadi.t.thi sutta. Scott posted this sutta and I added sometimes the Co. On birth: On decay and death: : Co: Again, the khandhas are merely nama and rupa which are classified as five groups. To receive the message of the suttas where conventional terms are used we have to see through these and come to the paramattha dhammas which are nama dhammas and rupa dhammas. Sukin used (in his message to Dieter) an example of realizing impermanence: Sukin: But a flower does not have the characteristic of anicca, unless one wants to insist upon the conventional meaning of impermanence. In the process however, one disregards the meaning of anicca as meant by the Buddha and which can only be known directly by *insight*. The other kind of impermanence is and will ever be the object of thinking only, and like other concepts when taken for real is in fact misleading. -------- N: Anybody can see that flowers or bodies decay, but for this one does not need the teaching of the Buddha. We have to understand momentary decay: the arising and falling away of each nama and rupa. That means a wholesome shock! ---------- > > T: MN 141 (Sacca-vibhanga Sutta): "And what is birth? Whatever birth, > taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of > aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in > this or that group of beings, that is called birth.... -------- N: All reminders of the coming to be and breaking up of the khandhas; the khandhas, nama and rupa at this moment. ---------- > > 4) Sammå-sankappa, right thinking, is vitakka cetasika which is > sobhana. It assists each kusala citta which is intent on > wholesomeness, it "touches" the object of wholesomeness. When right > thinking is a factor of the noble eightfold Path it has to accompany > right understanding, paññå. Right thinking "touches" the nåma or rúpa > which appears so that paññå can understand it as it is. As we have > seen, this cetasika also functions as jhåna-condition for the > accompanying dhammas. > > T: Samma-sankappa (right resolve) are thoughts free from sensuous > desire, from ill-will, and from cruelty. ------ N: It is best to translate as right thinking. Your quote is true. But see the following, though the translation is not quite as I would like it, such as focussed awareness. It assists right view: > > MN 117: > "And what is the right resolve that is without fermentations, > transcendent, a factor of the path? The thinking, directed thinking, > resolve, mental absorption, mental fixity, focused awareness, & > verbal fabrications in one developing the noble path whose mind is > noble, whose mind is without fermentations, who is fully possessed of > the noble path. This is the right resolve that is without > fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path. > ------------- > 5) > There are three cetasikas which are síla, namely: right speech, right > action and right livelihood. They are actually the three abstinences > or virati cetasikas which are: > abstinence from wrong speech (vacíduccarita virati) > abstinence from wrong action (kåyaduccarita virati) > abstinence from wrong livelihood (åjívaduccarita virati) > They may, one at a time, accompany kusala citta when the occasion > arises. They do not accompany each kusala citta. > > T: It might be useful to compare the above writing with Sacca- > vibhanga Sutta. > > MN 141 (Sacca-vibhanga Sutta): "And what is right speech? Abstaining > from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle > chatter: This is called right speech.... --------- N: I see no contradictions, but this was not your intention with this quote, I think. > > > 6) While we abstain from wrong action or speech there can be > awareness and right understanding of nåma and rúpa. Paññå can realize > that the cetasika which abstains from akusala is non-self, that it > arises because of its appropriate conditions. When paññå really sees > the disadvantage and danger of akusala there are conditions for > abstaining from it and there is no need to think, "I shall abstain > from akusala". However, if virati cetasika, the cetasika which > abstains from akusala, does > not accompany the citta at such a moment there isn't anybody who can > abstain. -------- > > T: According to Arahant Sariputta and the Buddha, Paññå that truly > understands the nåma and rúpa does not arise directly from abstaining > from akusala dhamma. ------ N: I did not say that. I explained abstaining conditioned by right understanding of nama and rupa. You quote a text of Patisambhidamagga,I, 409. This deals with specific aspects, there are so many aspects by which dhammas can be viewed, they are not contradictory. This text : nine ideas rooted in yoniso manasikaara. The Co mentions vipassana bala, as power, and that is after the stage of insight that realizes impermanence. It mentions the three lakkhana. Perhaps you meant another text? --------- Nina. #76719 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Thx for your long introductory message on your understanding of the teachings with good sutta references. Welcome to DSG! Perhaps sometime, let us know a little more about yourself too, such as where you live, how you come to have such an interest in the Buddha's teachings etc. I agree with you that 'Ditthi' refers to wrong views, unless specified to the contrary in the Teachings. For example, in suttas from Sutta Nipata often quoted. Let me pick up on one paragraph for now. Others have also responded, I'm glad to see. --- Alex wrote: > As a famous quote goes "When this is that is, with this arising that > arises, when this ceases that ceases." > > For example color is dependent on conditions. If the eye is > malfunctioning then the color will not be perceived or it will be > incorrectly seen. If color had its own characteristic then even blind > people would see and the color would somehow impose itself to the > consciousness even of a dead person. .... S: No, because we read again and again that in order for colour to be seen, there has to be a)seeing consciousness, b)eye-base, c)contact (and d)light). Clearly these dhammas don't arise in a dead person or someone completely blind. There has to be the meeting of the ayatanas for any experience to take place. ..... >Since this doesn't happen, since > color is dependent on conditions - it has no its own characteristics. .... S: Colour or visible object is dependent on conditions as are all sankhara dhammas. They have their own characteristics. The characteristic of visible object is different from sound. The characteristic of visible object is also different from seeing consciousness. .... > However it does NOT mean that color does not exist. Please don't > misread what was said. Because we can (see,hear,smell,taste,touch, > think) object it means that it doesn't have its own self nature. .... S: It has a sabhava which is different from any other dhamma. This is why we read about khandhas too, because each dhamma has a particular sabhava, a particular characteristic, yet all rupas have the rupa characteristic in common, they are rupa khandha. ..... > Even language is concepts, is without a self nature. ... S: Yes, concepts are concepts. As such they don't have sabhava or lakkhana (characteristics). By definition, they are merely conceptualised. When the teachings refer to the ti-lakkhana of anicca, dukkha and anatta, they are not referring to concepts. ..... <...> > Please forgive me for such messy writing of some notes. ... S: Not in the least messy - thank you very much for sharing them. Pls share more of your notes! ... >Hopefully > this will be some food for thought, which will lead to dispassion and > cessation of craving for phenomenon that will appear/cease when the > conditions are right. Why crave for something unstable and constantly > becoming otherwise? Why build theories that are but expression of > ones preferences? Why not observe phenomenon as it is. A flux of > rising and falling. What is to be passionate about? Dispassion and > detachment all the way!!! .... S: Agreed!!! Dispassion and detachment all the way!!! I like that expression. Look forward to hearing more from you, Alex. Metta, Sarah ========= #76720 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:37 am Subject: Re: Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. truth_aerator Hi colette, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > although I think they're more limiting than expanding. > >>>>>> The issue is not about dry knowledge. The talk is about stress and its cessation. Some beliefs lead to accumulation, some thing lead to cessation of stress. > Alex: > > I hope that it doesn't. A good constructive criticism is welcomed. > > Self conceit is NOT what I am after. > > > colette: That, has yet to be proven, it is possible that you are in > possession of self-conceit, I forget what the buddhist word for that > was, and that your advice may mesmerize others to the conceit for > your SELF. > ------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> I have defilements and I am working on their eradication. Good news is that conceit can be gotten rid off, bad news is that it is at Arahatship. > > > > > A: "I was thinking about the notion of Ditthi, epistemology, > > ontology > > > of Buddha... > colette: I have problems with those concepts Ditthi, epistemology, > and ontology since I may have their definitions laying around > somewhere I know for a fact that people schooled in philosophy and > logic use these words without thinking and there is something to > these words, I have very little ideas as to their meanings, but that > doesn't end any and all communications so lets press on. > ------------------------------------- > epistemology - valid means of knowledge. What does it mean to know correctly? Ultimately this is the most important philosophical issue. How do we know that we correctly know? If our basis for knowledge is incorrect, than ANY even most logically well built systems are based on incorrect assumptions. In Sutta epistemology it is basically a direct experience without any hindrances defilements, or perversions. Ontology - what there is. Buddha has talked very little on this. Ultimately it is suffering and cessation of it is what he was after. > ------------------------- > Alex > > > A misguided philosopher makes logical inductions, deductions and > > > speculations about various sense impressions he experiences." > > > > colette: why does the philosopher have to be misguided before making > these speculations? Can't a philosopher like say Karl Rove or GWB or > even Dicky Cheney have made speculations such as "Iraq has weapons of > mass distruction"? What makes their speculations sane or "guided" > especially after all these yrs. and they haven't even dug their own > grave site yet. But they sure put the rest of us in the hole they dug. > ------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> All inferences, deduction, logical systems of thoughts - are just that. Subjective. For example in quantum mechanics a lot of things are illogical and counterintuitive. However sometimes in some cases wrong conclussions may on a conventional sense "work". For example, just because all things are anatta doesn't preclude the fact of car working. In fact without Anatta car wouldn't work. > > > Scott: All philosophers are misguided. Are you also a > philosopher? > > > > I was a philosopher. I am trying not to be one. Basically what you > > are asking is "Are you (Alex) making an inference, logical > > inductions, deductions and speculations" ? > colette: there's another word I'm not too comfortable > using, "inference". I got the basic jist of the word but that doesn't > mean that I'm comfortable using it. It still causes me to stop and > think and then place the thought of the word into the sentence when > read again. > ----------------------------------------- > > I trust in the Buddha > > because what he says is based on hindrance free experience without > > any taint of subjectivism. > colette: that is a faith. A belief in the buddha's honesty. The > dharma is empty, don't ya know. > --------------------------------- >>>> Confirmed confidence is more like it. > I have also had my own VERY little > > experiences especially with existence/non-existence being dependent > > on sense-contact. > > colette: that is exactly why the dharmas were written, told to the > sangha or community. Now we can go into more deeper ways of > EXPERIENCING SUNYATA and because when these approaches are taken, > such as Tantra, et al, the sense-consciousnesses are the only things > that come with us. Let me try to put this in terms of my first Near > Death Experience in 1978. The sense consciousnesses were conditioned. > That conditioning is what I took with me, here the conditioning is > also said to be the same as the "memory of". This is what I had in > this "other consciousness" and it was a complete consciousness > totally filled, no gaps, but if I had no memory of experiencing it > and only had memory of what I was trained to think it was and would > be like then I could not completely experience it. <....> > ------------------------------------- > > >>>> > I was quite familiar with quiet a few philosophical > > thoughts and can argue some positions well (also they are but a > > memory now and their pointlessness fuels me following Buddha's > > teaching). > > colette: maybe the reason you are driven to follow the Buddha's > teachings is because those pointless philosophical memories are > lingering in your subconscious and you catch them rising to > consciousness when you study the Buddha's teaachings. > -=------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe. But the most important issue is Stress and cessation of it. > colette: I do not agree, TECHNICALLY. Why are hindrances suppressed > during meditation when the hindrances can be the object of meditation > or they can be one of the key constituent parts of the meditation and therefore would be highly active, under the spotlight, microscope. This is a good way to get to the ROOTS. > ---------------------------------- >> Are you talking from Sutta or Vajrayana POV? As I understand, working with defilements is Vajrayana POV. In the suttas the Buddha talked about getting rid of hindrances (who obstruct seeing). The arising of a hindrance could, maybe, used for insight. But not when it is full blown and out of control. Most likely the hindrances are analyzed RETROSPECT (past hindrance who are now gone) using SATI (which can be translated as memory). > > Unless you have hindrance free mind with proper > > attention > > colette: the Clear Light, no? >>>>>>> I am not familiar with Tibetan terminology. Please explain. Lots of Metta, Alex #76721 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Dear Robert, you wrote: 'I hope they reply! But I don't feel so interested to visit them, too many other things to do.' D:nice surprise : received the e -mail address of present chief editor. As you brought the attention to this issue , I think it is fair that you suggest the wording of the question ( repectively your complaint) at the first place and we try to obtain an agreed version to be passed. What do you think? with Metta Dieter #76722 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Hi Howard, Tep ( James and others), you wrote: ' My opinion: A very worthwhile topic! :-) ' D: I assume that you have in mind to exchange views on Nyanatiloka's definition of 'magga' first ... as a base to comment at opportunity the series of introduction James announced? For a start: In the center of the definition stands the two kinds of right understanding , mundane and supermundane , in terms of MN 117 the mind with and without fermentation , i.e. the view of the Wordling and those of the Noble One, right? Do you agree with Nyanatiloka's interpretation how the 8fold Noble Path to be understood in general? with Metta Dieter P.S.: Tep , just a bit curious : you are a Thai residing in US, aren't you? #76723 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti nilovg Dear Han, Op 25-sep-2007, om 14:18 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > In Puggala pa~n~natti Maatikaa, it is mentioned as > follows: > > “Cha pa~n~nattiyo: (1) khandha pa~n~natti, (2) > aayatana pa~n~natti, (3) dhaatu pa~n~natti, (4) sacca > pa~n~natti,(5) indriya pa~n~natti, (6) puggala > pa~n~nattii ti.” ---------- H: If puggala pa~n~natti is just about cittas and cetasikas, why it is mentioned as a separate sixth group as puggala pa~n~natti? If it is just cittas and cetasikas can’t the preceding five groups cover them, without the need to have the sixth puggala pa~n~natti group? Why is it that 54 puggalas are mentioned under this group if there are no puggalas? -------- N: They are subjects under different headings to show different aspects. We could also ask: why are realities classified as khandhas, dhatus, and ayatanas. There are reasons. Ayatanas shows the meeting the association of different realities so that there can be the arising of experiences. Puggala pa~n~natti show us that the accumulations of different individuals are so varied. Yes, of different individuals, namely in different streams of cittas. It still deals with the cittas and accompanying cetasikas. Some people are sukkha vipassakas, some can develop jhaana. Some people are angry for a long time, for some anger does not last long. But anger falls away, though it can arise again but then it is a different anger. Thus, who is angry for a long time has anger arising and falling away many times. We cannot hold that anger is a person or has an owner. How could it, since it arises and falls away. If we keep in mind that a person is in reality citta, cetasika and ruupa, there is no problem with the puggala pa~n~natti. -------- Sarah wrote: We can then read the entire text of "Puggala-pa~n~nati" with a)an understanding that all the references to people are designations or sammutisacca, pointing to various combinations of cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or b) with an understanding, like the Puggalavaadins, that in each example, 'the person is known in the sense of a real and ultimate fact.... ------ N: I prefer option a. We can read this and receive the true message, the reminders of the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala and pa~n~naa. It can remind us of citta at this moment: what is it like? Which simile in this book can be applied to the citta at this moment? If the teachings are not applied at this moment, whatever part of the Dhamma it may be, all our study is in vain. Nina. #76724 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Alex) - In a message dated 9/25/2007 11:43:22 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: ============================== If I may hazard an opinion: I don't think you two are differing so much in substance as in terminological perspective. You both agree that color arises, as do all dhammas other than nibbana, in utter dependence on conditions and is not something that exists independent of conditions. In particular, you agree that experienced color is dependent on eye, eye contact, and eye consciousness. Also, if, Alex, as seems to be the case, you countenance no color other than experienced color - i.e., you take "unseen sights" to be fictitious [I take 'unseen sight' to be an oxymoron!], then, for you, color in *every* sense has it very existence utterly dependent on things other than color. I believe that this is why you say that color lacks OWN nature, inasmuch as its nature, its very existence, in fact, depends entirely on OTHER (equally empty) phenomena. On the other hand, Alex, I suspect that you would agree with Sarah that colors and sounds are unalike - that they are distinguishable. I believe it is in that sense that Sarah speaks of color as having (or being) its "own" nature. With metta, Howard #76725 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Tep) - In a message dated 9/25/2007 1:57:43 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, Tep ( James and others), you wrote: ' My opinion: A very worthwhile topic! :-) ' D: I assume that you have in mind to exchange views on Nyanatiloka's definition of 'magga' first ... as a base to comment at opportunity the series of introduction James announced? For a start: In the center of the definition stands the two kinds of right understanding , mundane and supermundane , in terms of MN 117 the mind with and without fermentation , i.e. the view of the Wordling and those of the Noble One, right? Do you agree with Nyanatiloka's interpretation how the 8fold Noble Path to be understood in general? ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not 100% certain of what he is maintaining. I *think* that he is identifying the mundane path with the noble eightfold path, and the four ariyan magga as the supermundane paths, and I think he views the mundane path as the means of cultivation of mind that leads to the supermundane paths. If that is so, then I agree. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter P.S.: Tep , just a bit curious : you are a Thai residing in US, aren't you? ============================== With metta, Howard #76726 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:50 pm Subject: Re: "there is no �person�Equot; - "The controversy on �person�Eis ended" kenhowardau Hi Scott, ------------- K: "Therefore, when wholesome namas produce the thought, "The man is holding a knife" they are performing a wholesome function. When unwholesome namas produce the thought "The man is holding a knife," they are performing an unwholesome function. Spot the difference! :-)" Scott: This is quite complex, really, isn't it? -------------- Yes, it can be complex. So it is best to start with a simple right understanding and work from there. -------------------------- S: > In what sense is it meant when one says, 'wholesome naamas produce the thought'? In other words, how is a thought 'produced'? -------------------------- I like to think of it simply as dhammas performing their functions. Even when the object is a concept, sanna (for example) marks and recognises that object in the same way it would mark and recognise a paramattha dhamma. ------------------- S: > Citta and cetasika arise and fall away, being realities. The reality 'thinking' arises and falls away but if the object of thinking is concept, then this cannot be said to arise and fall away, since concept is not a reality. In the above example I'm imagining that it would have been visible object and seeing which would have lead to the thought 'The man is holding the knife'. ----------------- I'm not sure I follow. A blind person can have the realisation, 'there is a man holding a knife.' And it doesn't always come from an immediately preceding sense-door experience, does it? It can be something that is suddenly remembered - out of the blue. (But that might not be what you are talking about in this case.) ------------------------ S: > An analysis of that thought shows that it is not referring to even a single reality; just concepts - 'a man', 'a knife', and 'holding'. In order for the thought 'The man is holding a knife' to be either kusala or akusala, it would have to depend on whether the thinking is kusala or akusala. If the thinking is akusala, then one can imagine that visible object and seeing, which lead naturally to thinking of concepts, will be taken for reality and the appearance of 'the man holding the knife' will then appear to have meaning and serve as object for thinking about a man, a knife, and what he is holding it for. ------------------------- All akusala consciousness contains moha (ignorance), and moha prefers concepts over realities. In our example, I take this to mean that the akusala consciousness that thinks. "The man is holding a knife," prefers not to know any other kind of reality. When kusala consciousness knows the same thing there is no such preference for concepts over realities. ------------------------------- S: > Actually, though, wouldn't the thinking be kusala due to, say, pa~n~naa arising after seeing visible object, knowing it is visible object and conditioning another sort of thinking about naturally occuring concepts such as 'the man holding the knife'? -------------------------------- Once again, I am probably not following your line of reasoning, in which case I apologise for talking at cross purposes. Kusala thinking does not contain moha and, therefore, it has no preference for concepts over realities. It does not necessarily contain panna (amoha), however, and so there might not be any actual understanding (of concepts vis-a-vis realities) at that time. ------------------------------------------- S: > I know you don't prefer to take things this far, but I couldn't help thinking about it. -------------------------------------------- It's certainly making my brain work. Maybe that's why I don't like going that far. :-) Sorry for the delay in replying, BTW, my wife is at home on holidays, and my usual routines are being disrupted. (That's my excuse, anyway.) Ken H #76727 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti indriyabala Dear Nina and Han, - I studied your reply to our "good friend" Han's inquiry. But, with all due respect, I do not feel certain that you have answered his concern at all. IMHO your answer does not end the inquiry -- there is still a question mark hanging in the air ! Han: If puggala pa~n~natti is just about cittas and cetasikas, why it is mentioned as a separate sixth group as puggala pa~n~natti? If it is just cittas and cetasikas can't the preceding five groupos cover them, without the need to have the sixth puggala pa~n~natti group? Why is it that 54 puggalas are mentioned under this group if there are no puggalas? (1) Nina: If we keep in mind that a person is in reality citta, cetasika and ruupa, there is no problem with the puggala pa~n~natti. Tep : ? ........... Nina: >Sarah wrote: We can then read the entire text of "Puggala-pa~n~nati" with a) an understanding that all the references to people are designations or sammutisacca, pointing to various combinations of cittas, cetasikas and rupas .. Nina: I prefer option a. We can read this and receive the true message, the reminders of the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala and pa~n~naa. It can remind us of citta at this moment: what is it like? Which simile in this book can be applied to the citta at this moment? If the teachings are not applied at this moment, whatever part of the Dhamma it may be, all our study is in vain. Tep: Option a) is the same as your answer (1) above; it does not end the inquiry. Tep === #76728 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:10 pm Subject: Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi Dieter (Howard and James ), - First, I am sorry I forgot to answer the "P.S.". Yes, I am. The term "right understanding" is not as simple as it looks. MN 117 describes samma-ditthi (right view) of the two kinds, i.e. " ..right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path". According to the the Visuddhi-magga (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli), understanding is from the Pali 'pa~n~naa'. T: In your opinion what is "Nyanatiloka's interpretation how the 8fold Noble Path to be understood in general"? Tep === #76729 From: han tun Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. I am beginning to follow your line of reasoning. I am not argumentative, but I wish to clear my doubts. Kindly bear with me, please! Let us look at again Puggala pa~n~natti Maatikaa: (1) khandha pa~n~natti, Are khandhas (as “khandhas”, not just citta, cetasika, ruupa) present? (2) aayatana pa~n~natti, Are aayatanas (as “aayatanas”) present? (3) dhaatu pa~n~natti, Are dhaatus (as “dhaatus”) present? (4) sacca pa~n~natti, Are four sacca (as “sacca”) present? (5) indriya pa~n~natti, Are indriyas (as “indriyas”) present? (6) puggala pa~n~nattii ti. Are puggalas (as “puggalas”) present? If the answer is, “yes” to the first five questions, isn’t it logical that the answer to the sixth question should also be “yes”? Because, after all, they are all in the same Maatikaa of the same chapter. Or, is it that (1) khandha, (2) aayatana, (3) dhaatu, (4) sacca, (5) indriya, and (6) puggala – all of them are not present in the ultimate sense? Are they all sammutisacca? And is that why pa~n~natti is added after each of them in the Maatikaa? This will be my last question on this subject. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #76730 From: "colette" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:55 am Subject: Re: Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. ksheri3 Good Day Alex, It took me all of a minute before I had to reply, in fact it was your first reply to me where I say: > although I think they're more limiting than expanding. > > >>>>>> > > The issue is not about dry knowledge. The talk is about stress and > its cessation. Some beliefs lead to accumulation, some thing lead to > cessation of stress. > colette: I get back to you on the response you gave since I know it's not what I was refering to. As to your last sentance on stress, the answer is simple, the answer is as plain os the nose on your face, etc, cessation of stress is the realization of the doctrine of Shunyata. Once the aspirant sees the suchness of everything they can then KNOW THAT what ever object or situation they are looking at and is causing them stress, they can KNOW THE LACK OF SVABHAVA OR SUCHNESS and thus visualize the suttas better since it's the definition of the doctrine of SHUNYATA. ---------------------------------------------------- > > > Alex: > > > I hope that it doesn't. A good constructive criticism is welcomed. > > > Self conceit is NOT what I am after. > > > > > colette: That, has yet to be proven, it is possible that you are in > > possession of self-conceit, I forget what the buddhist word for that > > was, and that your advice may mesmerize others to the conceit for > > your SELF. > > ------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>> > > I have defilements and I am working on their eradication. Good news > is that conceit can be gotten rid off, bad news is that it is at > Arahatship. colette: I do believe that I've got my union card and can enter this CONSTRUCTION SITE. We all have DEFILEMENTS, and yes it's rather easy to be rid of them once the aspirant begins to work on the ROOTS of the DEFILEMENTS. Yes, conceit is just as easy to get rid of as the DEFILEMENTS. Damn, you went and had to energize the damned thing: "bad news is that it is at Arahatship". Should I just go and get the C-4 so that we can make quick work of this OBSCURATION? Why oh why did you go and CONSTRAIN the DEFILEMENTS? Why, I do believe we have, in our presence, a DOGMA-TIST who, happens to believe in Value Structures as given to him by a pre-existant group that he desires to have status in. Let me know if you want to just nuke that obscuration. Otherwise, I'll let you fumble with the enormity of realities you have conditioned your consciousness to accept. --------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > A: "I was thinking about the notion of Ditthi, epistemology, > > > ontology > > > > of Buddha... > > colette: I have problems with those concepts Ditthi, epistemology, > > and ontology since I may have their definitions laying around > > somewhere I know for a fact that people schooled in philosophy and > > logic use these words without thinking and there is something to > > these words, I have very little ideas as to their meanings, but that > > doesn't end any and all communications so lets press on. > > ------------------------------------- > > > > > epistemology - valid means of knowledge. What does it mean to know > correctly? Ultimately this is the most important philosophical issue. colette: that word alone has been the causation of so much delay in reaeding so many manuscripts from scholars that have their acts together. Sure, I can get the definition now, but it's not the same as being in class where the word is drilled into the person and the meaning becomes the person. Thank you for the definition. I'll still try to use and apply it but somehow I think I'm still gonna run into problems. ------------------------- > How do we know that we correctly know? If our basis for knowledge is > incorrect, than ANY even most logically well built systems are based > on incorrect assumptions. colette: VERY GOOD, this has been my entire point throughout so much of my study since 1981. <....> ---------------------------------------- > In Sutta epistemology it is basically a direct experience without any > hindrances defilements, or perversions. colette: that is an impossibility. While I understand and am forced to agree with somewhat, that the mind needs to be purified I cannot stress that once the mind is brought in it now becomes something UN- ACCESSABLE to other individuals and is therefore UN-REPAIRABLE, the hindrances, defilements and perversions are all a single thing performing a single function or action. The only possible repair that can be done on a defiled mind is to show the mind the impossibility of it's defilements. In this case, after acceptance of the worthlessness of the defilements, then the mind can be schooled in Shunyata, Dependent Origination, et al. Those defilements, however, will always be there in some form or another. -------------------------------------- > > Ontology - what there is. Buddha has talked very little on this. > Ultimately it is suffering and cessation of it is what he was after. > colette: don't sweat the load, you tried, if I have trouble which I know I'll eventually run into this educated crap again, I'll deal with this word when I get to it. Thanks for the lesson! ---------------------------------- <....> > All inferences, deduction, logical systems of thoughts - are just > that. Subjective. For example in quantum mechanics a lot of things > are illogical and counterintuitive. However sometimes in some cases > wrong conclussions may on a conventional sense "work". For example, > just because all things are anatta doesn't preclude the fact of car > working. In fact without Anatta car wouldn't work. colette: I love it! Thanx for lightening up. Luckily in this library people are aware that sometimes I just start laughing and talking to the computer. I'm still at odds here. I'll get someday though. -------------------------------- <...> > > I trust in the Buddha > > > because what he says is based on hindrance free experience without > > > any taint of subjectivism. > > colette: that is a faith. A belief in the buddha's honesty. The > > dharma is empty, don't ya know. > > --------------------------------- > >>>> > > Confirmed confidence is more like it. colette: ya had to go and afirm your concept, idea, of SELF which you got from a pre-existing organization which you wanted status in. Yea, it could be a confirmed confidence but is that really what you're confident in? --------------------------------- <...> > Maybe. But the most important issue is Stress and cessation of it. > > colette: I do not agree, TECHNICALLY. Why are hindrances suppressed > > during meditation when the hindrances can be the object of > meditation > or they can be one of the key constituent parts of the > meditation and therefore would be highly active, under the > spotlight, microscope. This is a good way to get to the ROOTS. > > ---------------------------------- > >> This part is gonna take some time with you differentiating betgween Sutta and VAjrayana, then going on to define a Vajrayana position on this subject. I'll get back to ya. <...> > I am not familiar with Tibetan terminology. Please explain. > colette: I find this IMPOSSIBLE TO BELIEVE! You raise the Vajranaya quite easily and then turn around and NOT KNOW DZOGCHEN? More specifically you take the term CLEAR LIGHT and place it as TIBETAN. Impossible to not be familiar with it. toodles, colette #76731 From: "tom" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:43 pm Subject: Re: How to approach it? zorroelbueno > > Scott: 'Constant thinking makes [the mind] decay'. What did they say > about onanism? Causes blindness? > > Sincerely (with tongue fully in cheek), > > Scott. > It is interesting that the the subject of constnat thinking should suggeset to you the practice of onanism. Z #76732 From: "Evie" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. eviebgreen Hello Charles, It is nice to know that I am not alone in the world with my spiritual journey. :) Thank you for the information. I am taking things one step at a time and hope that I will be able to make my life better by being able to live the life that I have always hoped for. One without extremes of stresses, and one with my happiness. I wanted to be more giving, loving, trusting, and less attached to all of my childhood and adolescent belongings. I am starting to make steps in the right direction, it just is difficult to change your life if you are used to the same old habits. Anyway, I've said a lot and rambled so I will write more later. Take care and peace be with you. -Evelyn #76733 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:11 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... indriyabala Dear Scott, - I think now I have a sticky habit of replying to your email two days later. I hope you do not mind. The reason is simply because it is always a challenge, and any challenge should not be answered while it is hot. So I left it hanging to cool down a little. Scott: Yes, it is enjoyable, isn't it? Discussing and contemplating Dhamma is said to be kusala. Let's hope some of it is, eh? T: If we want it to be that way, then it will. BTW have you forgotten that a respectable teacher should not argue or debate with his student? :-) ........... Scott: Not what I'm saying, Tep. Lesson 1 was only that Abhidhamma is open for all to study - not just arahats and Devas. The rest depends on conditions, of which accumulations are a part. And, just for fun, what is your IQ anyway? And what does such an arbitrary, ephemeral thing have to do with Dhamma discussion? I insist that henceforth all mention of IQ, 'bookworms' and the like be stricken from the record! T: Now do you see why your conversation is (always) a challenge to me? .............. >T: "The single-moment citta is a purist's view..." Scott: I wouldn't mind a little elaboration on this, if you don't mind my good man, just by way of clarification. Since this is the basic stand you often take, I'm not sure what you would label the view you are more comfortable with - the one opposed to 'the purist's view'. T: Anyone such as you, my good man, who believes that only a paramattha dhamma can be an object of consciousness is a purist to me. Plain and simple! Another purist I know is our good friend Jonathan. Jon (#76648): To my understanding, 'concepts' is a term used in apposition to paramattha dhammas. Thus, conventional objects, which are not paramattha dhammas, are concepts. They lack the quality of having an inherent characteristic that is directly experiencable by consciousness. In that sense they lack existence. .............. Scott: As a purist I say, 'In for a penny, in for a pound'. T: Why be contented with just a pound? Your "purity" should be worth much higher ! :-) ............... >T: However, even labeling/conceptualizing stream of consciousnesses and accompanying concomitants as 'mind' is alright, if there is no clinging. What do you think?" Scott: In the above, while acknowledging the non-existence of wholes, these are then seemingly justified (by the final clause) on the basis of clinging. The justification is untenable because without highly developed pa~n~naa, such a distinction is not made. Such labelling/conceptualising is, by default and in the absence of developed pa~n~naa, wrong-view. This is merely a restatement of the oft debated distinction between 'conventional' versus 'ultimate' sacca. T: I agree that we must have a highly-developed pa~n~naa in order to make that distinction. Yet, any non-ariyan's mind is absent of such a "highly developed pa~n~naa", regardless of whether s/he is in the conventional/real world or (pretending to be) in the ultimate-sacca world. I do not understand how the concoction/fabrication of the ultimate-reality by a non-ariyan, who denies all realities except the paramattha dhammas, can help her/him see & know the dhammas the way they truly are. ................ Scott: The only way such labelling/conceptualising would be 'alright' would be if it was not misunderstood. The only way this is not misunderstood is that from the beginning one understands that wholes are not what they seem - they are only so due the distortion of ignorance (also a momentary dhamma with its own characteristics, I say impudently). T: But the "understanding that wholes are not what they seem" is much higher than a bookworm's intellectual understanding, Scott. Can you show me (or prove) how you know that such understanding is true, i.e. it is not due to your own imagination ? As an analogy : a physics student may tell us that he understands (from his University Physics 102) that the whole piece of copper in his hand is "more than what it seems", because it consists of protons, electrons, and sub-particles. He may also say that we see copper as copper is only because we are ignorant of the Physics principles. But does he really see the copper atoms, or he thinks they are inside the piece of copper in his hand because The Book tells him so? ................ [Talking about SN 12.44 ..] Scott: The 'origin of the world' (lokassa samudayo) is described in this sutta from the dependent orignination point of view. Within this description are found imbedded aspects which Abhidhamma clarifies. The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; form (ruupa); consciousness (vi~n~naa.na) which arises conditioned by contact - these cannot be understood properly without the clarification of Abhidhamma. Without this, wholes are conceived intellectually and wrong view is established from the beginning. T: Can you explain how the abhidhamma books help you truly understand these khandhas and ayatanas? IMHO the Abhidhamma only provides detailed descriptions of these dhammas. Scott, it is a very long way from the "knowing of these details" from the 7 books to attaining the vipassana~naana that eradicates the wrong views. Next time I will restrain myself from having an argument with you, like a good student should. Tep === #76734 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. truth_aerator Hi Howard, > > ============================== > On the other hand, Alex, I suspect that you would agree with Sarah that colors and sounds are unalike - that they are distinguishable. I believe it is in that sense that Sarah speaks of color as having (or being) its "own" nature. > > With metta, > Howard > > Excellent comment. Sound is experienced in a different sense than a color. I haven't thought this yet... Interesting idea. Lots of Metta, Alex #76735 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:36 pm Subject: Binara Poya Bhikkhuni Day! bhikkhu0 Friends: How to be a Real Buddhist through Observance? Binara Poya day is the full-moon of September. This holy day celebrates the inauguration of the Bhikkhuni Sangha by the ordination on this very day of Queen MahÄ?pajÄ?patÄ«, the Buddha's foster-mother & her retinue. For life details on this excellent woman, who awakened as Arahat Theri: See: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/maha/mahapajapati_gotami.htm On such Full-Moon Uposatha Poya Observance days: Any Lay Buddhist simply joins the Three Refuges and undertakes the Five Precepts like this: Newly bathed, shaved, white-clothed, with clean bare feet, one kneels at a shrine with a Buddha-statue, and bows first three times, so that feet, hands, elbows, knees & head touch the floor. Then, with joined palms at the heart, one recites these memorized lines in a loud, calm & steady voice: As long as this life lasts: I hereby take refuge in the Buddha. I hereby take refuge in the Dhamma. I hereby take refuge in the Sangha. I hereby seek shelter in the Buddha for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Dhamma for the 2nd time. I hereby seek shelter in the Sangha for the 2nd time. I hereby request protection from the Buddha for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Dhamma for the 3rd time. I hereby request protection from the Sangha for the 3rd time. I will hereby respect these Three Jewels the rest of my life! I accepts to respect & undertake these 5 training rules: I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Killing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Stealing. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Sexual Abuse. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Dishonesty. I hereby accept the training rule of avoiding all Alcohol & Drugs. As long as this life lasts, I am thus protected by these 5 precepts... Then, one keeps and protects these sacred vows better than one's own eyes & children!, since they protect you & all other beings much better than any army! They are the highest offer one can give in & to this world! So is the start towards NibbÄ?na: the Deathless Element! This is the Noble Way to Peace, to Freedom, to Ease, to Happiness, initiated by Morality , developed further by Dhamma-Study and fulfilled by training of Meditation ... Today indeed is Pooya or uposatha or observance day, where any lay Buddhist normally keeps even the Eight Precepts from sunrise until the next dawn... <...> May your journey hereby be light, swift and sweet. Never give up !! For Details on The Origin of Uposatha Observance Days: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/uposatha.html Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <...> #76736 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Hi Tep, 'T: In your opinion what is "Nyanatiloka's interpretation how the 8fold Noble Path to be understood in general"?' D: did you read the definition of ' Magga' at the link I provided? with Metta Dieter #76737 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:51 am Subject: Re: How to approach it? scottduncan2 Dear Tom, Thanks for the reply: Me: 'Constant thinking makes [the mind] decay'. What did they say about onanism? Causes blindness? T: "It is interesting that the the subject of constant thinking should suggest to you the practice of onanism." Scott: Actually, it was in reference to the associated old wife's tale that blindness ensues following the practise, and not the practise itself. The lack, in my opinion, of substance in the quote regarding 'constant thinking' elicited the tongue in cheek comment. The implication was that both statements, the one in the quote and the old wife's tale are on par. I suppose that the quote would reflect the product of a sort of mental onanism, again only in my opinion. At any rate, that was the meaning of the remark. I suppose I could have made reference to the story of the Emperor's new clothes - same thing really. Thinking goes on 'all the time', yet this is not 'constant', since the reality the function of which is thinking arises and falls away over and over. Thinking is natural. Since reference here is to citta and accompanying cetasikas ('mind') there is no question of the existence of such a spurious cause and effect relationship. Arising and falling away is not 'decay', if by 'decay' is meant something like 'wear out' or 'damage'. 'Constant thinking' does not cause the mind to decay. The statement, in my opinion, does not reflect Dhamma as I understand it. Were you meaning to suggest that it does? Sincerely, Scott. #76738 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:48 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 194 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 194 Intro: In this section the Visuddhimagga elaborates more on the factor of nutrition that produces ruupas for the newborn being in the womb. This happens when the mother has taken food and this suffuses its body. Also the nonad of sound is mentioned that can be produced by temperature or by citta. --------- 194. The bare octad originated by nutriment appears in beings in the womb who live on matter consisting of physical nutriment as soon as their body is suffused by nutriment swallowed by the mother; for it is said: 'And so it is that when his mother Eats, consuming food and drink, One hidden in his mothers womb Thereby obtains his nourishment' (S.i,206) And it appears in apparitionally born beings as soon as they first swallow the spittle that has come into their own mouths. So, with the twenty-six [material instances] consisting of the bare octad originated by nutriment, and of the, at most, two [sound] enneads originated respectively by temperature and consciousness, ---------- N: The verse in Pali mentions that when he has left the womb he is called a man (maatukucchigato naro”ti). The Tiika states that he is called a man when he is outside, having left the womb. Nutriment originates a unit of eight ruupas and these are the eight inseparable ruupas: the four Great Elements and in addition: colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. When the mother has swallowed food and it suffuses the body of the embryo, then nutrition can produce an octad, a unit of eight ruupas. The Tiika explains that temperature and citta produce units of at least eight ruupas. However, they can also produce a unit of nine ruupas consisting of the eight inseparable ruupas and sound. The Tiika mentions: at most, namely, at the time when there is sound (sasaddakaala). Thus, in that case twentysix ruupas are reckoned. But sound is not always present. ------------ Text Vis.: and also with the already-mentioned seventy kamma- originated instances that arise three times in each conscious moment [at the instants of arising, presence, and dissolution], there are thus ninety-six material instances; and with the three immaterial aggregates there is thus a total of ninety-nine states. --------- N: As to < the already-mentioned seventy kamma-originated instances>, these are the units produced by kamma. The Tiika explains: two decads and so on up to seven decads. These are originated from kamma. These decads are the eight inseparable ruupas, the life-faculty and in addition for each decad: heartbase, bodysense, eyesense, earsense, smellingsense, tastingsense and sex. As we have seen (Vis. 191) this is the maximum. Human beings are born with heartbase, sex and bodysense, but they do not have the other senses at birth. The decads originated by kamma are produced at the three sub-moments of one citta: its arising moment, the moment of its presence and the moment of its dissolution and this goes on throughout life. The seventy ruupas in addition to the before mentioned twentysix ruupas are together: ninetysix ruupas. When counting the three naama- khandhas that are the cetasikas, there are altogether ninety-nine dhammas. Consciousness conditions naama and ruupa, and these naamas and ruupas are altogether ninety-nine dhammas at most. --------- Conclusion: The verse at the beginning is taken from S I, 206. A Yakkha asks the Buddha how one is begotten in the womb. Ven. Bodhi in his note (559): The part of the verse before that quoted by the Visuddhimagga refers to the different stages in the development of the embryo. The first one is the kalala which is according to the Co. The verse is: First there is the kalala; From the kalala comes the abbuda; From the abbuda the pesii is produced; From the pesii the ghana arises; From the ghana emerge the limbs, The head-hair, body-hair and nails. And whatever food the mother eats- The meals and drinks that she consumes- By this the being there is maintained, The person inside the mother’s womb. A puggala-vadi believes that a person exists in the absolute sense. The Yakkha thought that a being is produced in the womb in a single stroke. However, it is past kamma that produces first the ruupas of a being in the womb. Kamma produces at the first moment of life, together with the rebirth- consciousness, groups of ruupas and these are infinitely tiny. At the moment of presence of the rebirth-consciousness, the heat element in the materiality that arose together with the rebirth-consciousness starts to produce a pure octad of ruupas. The bhavangacitta succeeding the rebirth-consciousness is the first citta that produces ruupas. Moreover, when the food taken by the mother suffuses the body of the embryo nutrition produces ruupas. The embryo develops because of conditions. The ruupas produced by the four factors arise and then fall away immediately. There is no person who possesses the body. ******* Nina. #76739 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:52 am Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 rjkjp1 Daer Dieter, I may seem obtuse, but what am I complaining about? Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > you wrote: > > 'I hope they reply! But I don't feel so interested to visit them, too many other things to do.' > > D:nice surprise : received the e -mail address of present chief editor. > As you brought the attention to this issue , I think it is fair that you suggest the wording of the question ( repectively your complaint) at the first place and we try to obtain an agreed version to be passed. > What do you think? #76740 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:54 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Thanks for the reply: T: "I think now I have a sticky habit of replying to your email two days later. I hope you do not mind. The reason is simply because it is always a challenge, and any challenge should not be answered while it is hot. So I left it hanging to cool down a little." Scott: I've gotten used to this pattern, thank you. I'll stop the banter, Tep, since I see that it must be somewhat upsetting. I fear that I may be able to dish better than you can take. Me: "...Discussing and contemplating Dhamma is said to be kusala. Let's hope some of it is, eh?" T: "If we want it to be that way, then it will..." Scott: I don't think so. Maybe, in the midst of the discussion, there will be moments of kusala, but not because we wanted them to be... T: "Anyone such as you, my good man, who believes that only a paramattha dhamma can be an object of consciousness is a purist to me. Plain and simple! Another purist I know is our good friend Jonathan." Scott: I'm very happy to be placed along side Jon as a purist. I enjoy the thoughtful, thorough and rigourous manner in which he presents things and I very much appreciate his understanding of the Dhamma, so thanks for the compliment. I'd appreciate an answer to the question, though: What is your label for the view you defend - the view that opposes the 'purist' stance? T: "I agree that we must have a highly-developed pa~n~naa in order to make that distinction. Yet, any non-ariyan's mind is absent of such a 'highly developed pa~n~naa', regardless of whether s/he is in the conventional/real world or (pretending to be) in the ultimate-sacca world. I do not understand how the concoction/fabrication of the ultimate-reality by a non-ariyan, who denies all realities except the paramattha dhammas, can help her/him see & know the dhammas the way they truly are." Scott: I've never quite made sense of this particular line of reasoning you adduce, that being this notion that there is one world for the 'non-ariyan mind' and another for the 'ariyan mind'. Since you keep returning to this I'll assume it is a fixed idea for you, and therefore leave you to it. It is wrong, in my view. Why? 'Mind' is citta and cetasika - naama. Whether ariyan or non-ariyan, realities are the same. Yes, for the ariyan there are well-developed kusala dhammas. These dhammas are, for the non-ariyan, not well-developed. These realities exist all the same. This is why I wish to discuss citta with you. T: "But the 'understanding that wholes are not what they seem' is much higher than a bookworm's intellectual understanding, Scott. Can you show me (or prove) how you know that such understanding is true, i.e. it is not due to your own imagination ? As an analogy : a physics student may tell us that he understands (from his University Physics 102) that the whole piece of copper in his hand is "more than what it seems", because it consists of protons, electrons, and sub-particles. He may also say that we see copper as copper is only because we are ignorant of the Physics principles. But does he really see the copper atoms, or he thinks they are inside the piece of copper in his hand because The Book tells him so?" Scott: Well, here's part of the difficulty of such a direction in a discussion, Tep. I don't know where you get your anti-intellectual stance, nor how you feel it is relevant to constantly apply it to, say, me, whose accumulations merely differ from yours. You'd find my replies twice as hot were I to take off the gloves and meet each ad hominem argument you make with one of my own. I don't feel the need to do this. I take the Abhidhamma to be the teaching of the Buddha; I consider it to be Dhamma. Saddhaa conditions the rest. If the Buddha teaches that things are such and so and that these things can be known then that is that. I learn of the dhammas because they exist. I learn what satipa.t.thaana is and I don't misunderstand this to be a practise that I can impose on things or cause to happen and this is because I learn what the nature of realities is taught to be. This is why I'd like to discuss citta with you. What is citta? This is basic and good to learn about, in my opinion. The Dhamma is not physics and so I'll pass on the analogy. T: "Can you explain how the abhidhamma books help you truly understand these khandhas and ayatanas?" Scott: No, Tep, probably not. I'd like to try by starting with a mutual consideration of citta. T: "IMHO the Abhidhamma only provides detailed descriptions of these dhammas. Scott, it is a very long way from the 'knowing of these details' from the 7 books to attaining the vipassana~naana that eradicates the wrong views." Scott: Tep, this is a given. You disconnect the teaching from the goal. In this you miss the whole point. Abhidhamma is Dhamma. The Buddha taught that which no one else could teach because of his perfect realisation of it. He described reality and the way to knowing it. You appear to dismiss an intellectual learning of the teaching based on some misapplied aversion to something you seem to refer to as 'Bookwormism'. This learning is a first step that no one of us can avoid. Following your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, you seem to be suggesting that no one can go from hearing or learning the teaching intellectually to knowing it experientially. Since I see in you a great deal of sadhaa as well, differently based and textured given your own unique set of accumulations, I'm sure that this is not the argument you wish to make and therefore do not misunderstand you. T: "Next time I will restrain myself from having an argument with you, like a good student should." Scott: Let's discuss citta. I know that you no more consider yourself to be my student than I consider myself to be your teacher. We're just two guys discussing Dhamma - and what could be better than that! Can we move on to a consideration of citta? Sincerely, Scott. #76741 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:06 am Subject: Conditions, Ch 15, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, Sammå-sati, right mindfulness, is non-forgetfulness of what is wholesome. Mindfulness arises with each sobhana citta. There is mindfulness of the levels of dåna, síla and bhåvanå. When it accompanies right understanding of the eightfold Path it is a factor of the eightfold Path. When there is right mindfulness of the nåma or rúpa which appears understanding of that reality can be developed. Mindfulness does not last, it arises just for a moment, but it can be accumulated. It cannot arise when there are no conditions for it. There are different levels of mindfulness. There may not yet be mindfulness of the level of satipatthåna, mindfulness of nåma and rúpa with the purpose of realizing them as non-self. However, there may be mindfulness of other levels. There is mindfulness when one sees the disadvantage of akusala and refrains from unwholesome speech or action. We may have aversion towards someone else’s words and behaviour and we are about to answer back. But when mindfulness arises and we see that aversion is ugly, we may refrain from speaking unpleasant words. At such a moment we are considerate of the other person’s feelings and we do not think of ourselves. There can be more understanding of kusala as kusala and of akusala as akusala through our own experience. When sati arises we can be encouraged to go on developing all kinds of wholesomeness and considering realities in our daily life. When we learn to be less selfish and develop kindness, thoughtfulness and patience, these wholesome qualities will support paññå to become detached from the idea of self. All the wholesome factors which have been accumulated, the sobhana cetasikas which are included in sankhårakkhandha, the khandha of “formations”, need to perform their function; they support one another and are together the conditions for right mindfulness of nåma and rúpa. There should not be clinging to reach the goal soon. The truth of anattå cannot be realized unless there is the development of all the different kinds of kusala for many lives. ******* Nina. #76742 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Dear Robert, ok, forget it .. with Metta Dieter ----- Original Message ----- From: rjkjp1 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 1:52 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 Daer Dieter, I may seem obtuse, but what am I complaining about? Robert #76743 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:15 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (67) nichiconn Dear Friends, 13. Viisatinipaato 2. Rohiniitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 2. The commentary on the verses of Theri Rohinii part 7 verse: 271. "sama.naati bhoti supi, sama.naati pabujjhasi; sama.naaneva kittesi, sama.nii nuuna bhavissasi. 271. Lady, you fell asleep [saying], "Ascetics." You wake up [saying], "Ascetics." Your praise only ascetics. Assuredly you will be an ascetic. txt: Tattha aadito tisso gaathaa attano dhiitu bhikkhuusu sammuti.m anicchantena vuttaa. Tattha sama.naati bhoti supiiti bhoti tva.m supanakaalepi "sama.naa sama.naa"ti kittentii sama.napa.tibaddha.myeva katha.m kathentii supasi. Sama.naati pabujjhasiiti supanato u.t.thahantiipi "sama.naa"icceva.m vatvaa pabujjhasi niddaaya vu.t.thaasi. Sama.naaneva kittesiiti sabbakaalampi sama.ne eva sama.naanameva vaa gu.ne kittesi abhitthavasi. Sama.nii nuuna bhavissasiiti gihiruupena .thitaapi cittena sama.nii eva ma~n~ne bhavissasi. Atha vaa sama.nii nuuna bhavissasiiti idaani gihiruupena thitaapi na cireneva sama.nii eva ma~n~ne bhavissasi sama.nesu eva ninnapo.nabhaavato. Pruitt: 271. There, the three verses at the beginning were spoken by him as he did not wish to agree with his daughter about the bhikkhus. There, you fell asleep (supi) [saying], "Ascetics" means: lady, at the time of falling asleep (supana-kaale), praising them, you said, "Ascetics, ascetics." Reciting only this talk connected with ascetics you fall asleep (supasi). You wake up [saying], "Ascetics" means: rising up from your sleep, you wake up, you rise up from your sleep, saying only, "Ascetics." You praise only ascetics (sama.naan' eva) means: you praise (kittesi = abhitthavasi) only ascetics (sama.ne eva) or only the good qualities of ascetics (sama.naanam eva vaa gu.ne). Assuredly you will be an ascetic means: although you stand in the form of a householder now, but in just a short time, I think, you will be an ascetic because you are only intent on ascetics. verse: 272. "Vipula.m anna~nca paana~nca, sama.naana.m pavecchasi; rohinii daani pucchaami, kena te sama.naa piyaa. 272. You bestow much food and drink upon ascetics. Rohinii, now I ask you, Why are ascetics dear to you? txt: Pavecchasiiti desi. Rohinii daani pucchaamiiti, amma rohini, ta.m aha.m idaani pucchaamiiti braahma.no attano dhiitara.m pucchanto aaha. Kena te sama.naa piyaati, amma rohini, tva.m sayantiipi pabujjhantiipi a~n~nadaapi sama.naanameva gu.ne kittayasi, kena naama kaara.nena tuyha.m sama.naa piyaayitabbaa jaataati attho. 272. You bestow means: you give. Rohinii, now (daani) I ask you means: "Lady Rohinii, I ask you now (idanni)," was said by the brahman who was asking his own daughter. What is the reason ascetics have come to be held dear (piyaayitabbaa jaataa) by you? That is the meaning. verse: 273. "Akammakaamaa alasaa, paradattuupajiivino; aasa.msukaa saadukaamaa, kena te sama.naa piyaa. 273. [They are] not dutiful, lazy, living on what is given by others, full of expectation, desirous of sweet things, [so] why are ascetics dear to you? txt: Idaani braahma.no sama.nesu dosa.m dhiitu aacikkhanto "akammakaamaa"ti gaathamaaha. Tattha akammakaamaati na kammakaamaa, attano paresa~nca atthaavaha.m ki~nci kamma.m na kaatukaamaa. Alasaati kusiitaa. Paradattuupajiivinoti parehi dinneneva upajiivanasiilaa. Aasa.msukaati tato eva ghaasacchaadanaadiina.m aasiisanakaa. Saadukaamaati saadu.m madhurameva aahaara.m icchanakaa. Sabbameta.m braahma.no sama.naana.m gu.ne ajaananto attanaava parikappita.m dosamaaha. 273. Now the brahman relates the faults of the ascetics to his daughter and speaks the verse beginning [They are] not dutiful. There, not dutiful (akamma-kaamaa) means: not dutiful (na kamma-kaamaa), not wanting to do any work whatever that brings benefit to themselves or others. Lazy means: indolent. Living on what is given by others (para-dattuupajiivino) means: they are by nature living on (upajiivana-siilaa) just what is given (dinnen') by others (parehi). Full of expectation (aasa.m-sukaa) means: as a result, they wish to obtain (aasiisanakaa) food and clothing, etc. Desirous of sweet things (saadu-kaama) means: desiring only food that is sweet, sweet things (saadu.m). All of this was spoken of as a fault that was fixed on himslef by the brahman who was ignorant of the good qualities of ascetics. ===to be continued, connie #76744 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:16 am Subject: Asoka, Ch 6, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Some people wonder whether it is necessary first to develop samatha and after that vipassanå. The Buddha did not set any rules with regard to samatha as a requirement for the development of insight. Individual inclinations are different. It depends on one’s accumulated inclinations whether one applies oneself to tranquil meditation or not. Some people developed both samatha and vipassanå, but for the attainment of enlightenment they still had to develop right understanding of all nåmas and rúpas. They had to acquire the “masteries”, so that they at any time could enter jhåna or emerge from it, and after having emerged from jhåna they could be mindful of realities, including the jhånacitta and accompanying jhåna-factors which are cetasikas. Otherwise they would take the jhånacitta for self. If people had great skill in jhåna and could be aware of the jhånacitta, jhåna was a foundation for the development of insight. Some people wonder why, in the “Satipaììhåna Sutta” (Middle Length Sayings I, no. 10) “Mindfulness of Breathing” is included under the section “Mindfulness of the Body”. Does this imply that it is necessary for the development of vipassanå to be mindful of breathing? It is an object of samatha and an object of vipassanå. As an object of samatha it is one of the most difficult meditation subjects. If one tries to concentrate on breath without right understanding of this subject there will be clinging instead of calm. Breath is a rúpa conditioned by citta, and it can appear where it touches the nose tip or the upperlip. Breath is very subtle and the “Visuddhimagga” explains (VIII, 211): ... But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, “Silent Buddhas” [1] and Buddha’s sons are at home... Buddha’s sons are disciples who were endowed with great wisdom and special qualities (mahå-purisas, or “great men”). Thus, mindfulness of breathing as a meditation subject of samatha is not suitable for everybody. ---------- 1. Silent Buddhas or Pacceka Buddhas have found the Path all by themselves, but they do not have accumulated the wisdom to the extent that they can teach the Path to others. ******** Nina. #76745 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views jonoabb Hi Tep Tep Sastri wrote: > Hi Jon (and Swee), - > > The on-going dialogue you have with Swee should not be interrupted ... > Not an interruption at all, Tep. Welcome to the thread! > because Swee is perfectly capable to handle any question with a smile > (i.e. he is not crying). > I agree that Swee is well able to look after himself. Not sure about the smile, though, sometimes ;-)) > But I hope Swee forgives me for the failure > to control myself. > > Tep's short poem: > > Jon, your latest response, > That is a "no response" to Swee > Is the reason for me to "butt in". > .............. > > T: Swee clearly explained real-world existence of concepts like > airplanes in the previous message. ... ... > > But your latest message does not seem to take his reply into > account. Or, did I misunderstand it completely? > Many thanks for expressing this view. I'm glad to have the chance to address the question further. To my understanding of the Buddha's teaching, the things that exist in the ultimate (i.e., deepest) sense are those things described in the suttas as the khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, etc., the 'dhammas'. The 'practice' taught by the Buddha is the development of insight into the true nature of dhammas. Conventional objects are not dhammas that have existence in the ultimate sense. There is no characteristic capable of being directly experienced as aeroplane, chariot, or person. The world of dhammas and the conventional world are different worlds. > .............. > Swee(#76552): You can say that in reality, there is no A380 > superjumbo jet. It is made up of thousands of parts that are > connected intricately to give the impression and mechanics of a A380 > superjumbo jet. I would not say that there is no A380 superjumbo jet because it is made up of thousands of parts that are connected intricately to give the impression of an A380 superjumbo jet. (As I have said before, I don't see the 'atoms and molecules' analogy as being appropriate) As explained above, my understanding of the teachings is that in terms of dhammas and the direct experience of them, 'aeroplane' is a thought or idea only. There is no dhamma that is aeroplane. 'Aeroplane' has no existence in the ultimate sense. Conventionally, of course, there is an aeroplane, and the arahant does not deny the conventional world. However, he is no longer taken in by it. > ... ... If the aeroplane is a concept, you wouldn't > have landed in Fiji. Swee's point, I think, is this: If Jon really landed in Fiji, how can it be said that the aeroplane that took him there is a concept? I accept the logic behind the comment. That is to say, I agree that to the extent that Jon's landing in Fiji is real, then so must be the plane that took him there. But in terms of dhammas/ultimate realities, 'Jon' and 'Fiji' are concepts too. So there is no inconsistency in usage in the idea of Jon going to Fiji in an aeroplane. > If the physical body of Jon is a concept, I > wouldn't have read your reply. > Similar comments here as with the plane going to Fiji. > > > I am butting out now ! > Glad you butted in, Tep. Jon > Jon (#76648): > > 1)The potential objects of insight are variously described in the > suttas as the khandhas, the dhatus, the ayatanas, the foundations of > mindfulness or 'the all'. These are the dhammas that are to be > understood, whose characteristics are to be penetrated. The > Abhidhamma uses the term 'paramattha dhamma'to refer to these dhammas. > 2)They do not include aeroplane, computer, table or person. > Such 'things' can never be the object of a single moment of > consciousness. > 3)To my understanding, 'concepts' is a term used in apposition to > paramattha dhammas. Thus, conventional objects, which are not > paramattha dhammas, are concepts. They lack the quality of having an > inherent characteristic that is directly experiencable by > consciousness. In that sense they lack existence. > ........... > #76746 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:12 am Subject: Puggala Pa~n~natti. nilovg Dear Han (and Tep), ------- H: This will be my last question on this subject. ------- N: You never bother me, it is a good opportunity for me to dive into the Co. I have in Thai. I always like it to discuss with you, it is helpful for me. We cannot always answer questions with a simple yes or no. Some detailed explanation is necessary, especially as concerns the last heading of the Maatika about puggala pa~n~natti. First we have to look at pa~n~natti. See Sarah's post: < "Pa~n~natti means 'notion,' 'designation,' etc. 'It means what the mind both conceives and renders articulate.' ['Expositor', vol ii, p.499, n.3] N: Thus it is that what is made known or it is that which makes known. A name or term is also pa~n~natti, it makes kown. And it can make known what is real in the ultimate sense or what is sammutti sacca. According to the Co to the Puggala Pa~n~natti (quoted in the intro by Mr. Law); ---------- H: Let us look at again Puggala pa~n~natti Maatikaa: (1) khandha pa~n~natti, Are khandhas (as “khandhas”, not just citta, cetasika, ruupa) present? -------- N: The five khandhas *are* citta, cetasika and ruupa. The Buddha classified them in many ways including as five khandhas. Also as dhaatus, as aayatanas. You ask whether they are present. Only at the moment of their arising. -------- H: (2) aayatana pa~n~natti, Are aayatanas (as “aayatanas”) present? (3) dhaatu pa~n~natti, Are dhaatus (as “dhaatus”) present? ------- N: They are naamas and ruupas. --------- (4) sacca pa~n~natti, Are four sacca (as “sacca”) present? --------- N: The four noble Truths pertain to the four paramattha dhammas. Dukkha sacca is the truth that conditioned naama and ruupa fall away, are impermanent. The second truth is tanhaa, lobha cetasika. The third is the unconditioned element. The fourth are the cetasikas which are the Path factors. The question whether they are present does not seem relevant. Only nama and rupa that arise are present for a short moment. This cannot be said of nibbaana. ------- (5) indriya pa~n~natti, Are indriyas (as “indriyas”) present? ------- N: They are naama and ruupa and present when they arise.. ---------- (6) puggala pa~n~nattii ti. Are puggalas (as “puggalas”) present? ------- N: This needs a more careful and detailed answer. It touches on the Sutta method: by way of persons the Buddha explained actually about paramattha dhammas. A person is samutti sacca but what did the Buddha teach? About the deeper truth of dhammas. This goes also for the Suttanta, those parts where he taught by way of persons and events in the world. An example: Ch II: Division of Human Types by Two. Here the dhamma that is dosa has been taught. Dhamma is not a person. Elsewhere in similes he spoke of an angry person, he taught by way of person. Thus, he taught by way of dhamma and by way of person. When he teaches by way of person we can see the Dhamma as a mirror. In how far are we like that ? We are reminded of our latent tendencies, and these are paramattha dhammas. We should carefully study this book, it can help us to have less wrong view. An interesting paralel in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, which speaks of dhammas and persons in one sentence, several times. For example, p. 16: It depends on the way one looks at it. When we read this we do not need to have misunderstandings. We know that the Buddha taught anatta. He knew many ways to help people to understand the truth of realities, of nama and rupa. We can speak of an unhappy person, but at the same time realize that unhappiness is a type of nama, not a person or self. -------- H: If the answer is, “yes” to the first five questions, isn’t it logical that the answer to the sixth question should also be “yes”? Because, after all, they are all in the same Maatikaa of the same chapter. Or, is it that (1) khandha, (2) aayatana, (3) dhaatu, (4) sacca, (5) indriya, and (6) puggala – all of them are not present in the ultimate sense? Are they all sammutisacca? And is that why pa~n~natti is added after each of them in the Maatikaa? ------ N: See above for the meaning of pa~n~natti. It means explanation, exposition. It comes from pa~n~naapeti, to make known. If anything is not clear yet, do not hesitate to ask. Nina. #76747 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Tep) - In a message dated 9/26/2007 9:01:24 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jonabbott@... writes: To my understanding of the Buddha's teaching, the things that exist in the ultimate (i.e., deepest) sense are those things described in the suttas as the khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, etc., the 'dhammas'. ============================== This won't be news to you (;-), but to me what exists in the deepest sense is what exists unconditionally, namely nibbana. I do, however, agree entirely that what exists, even for an instant, independently of thinking exists in a far deeper sense than pa~n~natti. With metta, Howard #76748 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti sarahprocter... Dear Han & Tep, Very good questions and points you both raise. I'd like to add a little more as well here: --- han tun wrote: >... But there is one point which is > still bothering me. > > In Puggala pa~n~natti Maatikaa, it is mentioned as > follows: > > “Cha pa~n~nattiyo: (1) khandha pa~n~natti, (2) > aayatana pa~n~natti, (3) dhaatu pa~n~natti, (4) sacca > pa~n~natti,(5) indriya pa~n~natti, (6) puggala > pa~n~nattii ti.” .... S: First, let me quote a little more from Bimala Charan Law's translation of teh Puggala-Pa~n~natti: "According to the Puggala-Pa~n~natti Commentary, pa~n~natti means 'explanation,' 'preaching,' 'pointing out,' 'establishing,' 'showing,' and 'exposition.' There are, it says, six pa~n~nattis. These amount to so many a) designations, b)indications, c) expositions, d) affirmations, e) depositions. [pa~n~naapanaa, dassanaa, pakaasanaa,.thapanaa, nikkhipanaa.] "All these are the meanings of pa~n~natti. Under pa~n~natti we have the designations, 'name' of groups, of spheres, or loci, or elements, or irreducible residua, of truths and of faculties or controlling powers. The commentator gives a further classification of pa~n~nattis. "There are those which point out the existing object or thing, those which point out the non-existing object or thing, which point out the non-existing by the existing, which point out the existing by the non-existing, which point out the existing by the existing, and which point out the non-exisiting by the non-existing. [Cf Compendium of Philosophy, p.200.] "Of these the first three are found in this treatise: the first, in dealing with khandhas, etc.; the second, in dealing with persons; and the third in dealing, e.g. with 'threefold lore' or the 'six super-knowledges.' Hence, according to the commentarial tradition, puggalapa~n~natti means 'pointing out,' 'showing,' 'exposition,' 'establishing,' and deposition of persons; or it may also mean 'notion' or 'designation' of types of persons. "At the outset, the author classifies the 'pa~n~natti,' or notion into group (khandha), locus (aayatana), element (dhaatu), truth (sacca), faculty (indriya), and person (puggala). Of these six, the last one is the subject-matter of this work. In the treatment of the subject, the author first gives a Table of Contents of the whole work, and then follows the method of the Anguttara Nikaaya...." .... S: After summarising the various paramattha dhammas by way of khandhas and so on, given in detail in the other Abhdidhamma texts, here the different accumulations, the different combinations of cittas, cetasikas and rupas, designated as 'puggala' are elaborated on according to the AN methodology. With an understanding of Abhidhamma, just as when we read the suttas, we appreciate that all the references to person/puggala are for convenience. Answer "a) an understanding that all the references to people are designations or sammutisacca, pointing to various combinations of cittas, cetasikas and rupas." is the only way to read the texts with right view. The alternative b) I gave, taking the people for realties of some kind, is to follow the wrong views of the Puggalavadins as shown up in the Kathavatthu. So we see the text (Puggala-Pa~n~natti) introduces 'puggala-pa~n~natti' with: "In what ways is there a designation of human types? 1- Grouping of Human Types by One. "(1) One who is emancipated in season (samayavimutto) (2) One who is emancipated out of season (asamayavimutto) (3) One of perturbable nature.(kuppadhammo) (4) One of imperturbably nature.(akuppadhammo) (5) One liable to fall away (gotrabhuu).....etc etc. So, in reality, are these people or cittas? I'd suggest (with the help of the notes)these refer to: (1) The path cittas of the sotapanna, sakadagami and anagami, i.e to sotapatti-magga citta and so on. (2) The path cittas of the sukkhavipassaka-khii.naasavas (Arahants who do not practise Jhaana - comy) (3) The cittas of the putthujana,sotapanna and sakadagami having attained the 8 samaapattis (absorptions/jhanas) (4) The cittas of the anagami or arahant having attained the 8 samaapatis. (5) The citta which is succeeded by the ariyan magga citta, referring here, 'According to the Commentary....to a person who has reached the family, circle, or designation of Ariyas....'. Again, this is referring in an absolute sense to a series of cittas only. In other words, all sammuti sacca using various pa~n~natti, but always to designate and point again to absolute realities. I hope this helps a little. Metta, Sarah ========= #76749 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala Pa~n~natti. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind explanation, and your patience with me. Knowing your kind cetana towards me, I feel bad to say that the problem with me starts from the beginning of your current post. You said that “We cannot always answer questions with a simple yes or no.” That is exactly the problem with me. As my knowledge on this subject is very much limited, I want to have a yes or no answer. For example, H: Or, is it that (1) khandha, (2) aayatana, (3) dhaatu, (4) sacca, (5) indriya, and (6) puggala – all of them are not present in the ultimate sense? Are they all sammutisacca? And is that why pa~n~natti is added after each of them in the Maatikaa? ------ N: See above for the meaning of pa~n~natti. It means explanation, exposition. It comes from pa~n~naapeti, to make known. If anything is not clear yet, do not hesitate to ask. -------------------- Han: I do not think that your above answer answers my questions adequately. But first let me see whether I get your points correctly up to this point. (1) The five khandhas *are* citta, cetasika and ruupa. They are “present” only at the moment of their arising. (2) aayatana, (3) dhaatu are naamas and ruupas. (4) sacca, four noble truths are paramattha dhammas. The question whether they are present does not seem relevant. Only nama and rupa that arise are present for a short moment. This cannot be said of nibbaana. (5) indriya, they are naama and ruupa and present when they arise (6) puggala, this needs a more careful and detailed answer. I hope I get your points correctly up to this point. For the time being, I will not ask any more about “puggala.” I will study carefully what you have explained in detail. If I have something to ask I will come back later. But my next question is: Are (1) The five khandhas, (2) aayatana, (3) dhaatu, and (5) indriya, paramattha dhammas or pa~n~natti dhammas? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han (and Tep), > ------- > H: This will be my last question on this subject. > ------- > N: You never bother me, it is a good opportunity for > me to dive into > the Co. I have in Thai. > I always like it to discuss with you, it is helpful > for me. #76750 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (18) sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, It's helpful to reflect on this more during these difficult times for many like the Burmese: --- han tun wrote: > The perfection of equanimity is evenmindedness, it is > non-disturbance by controversial conduct of people, by > trying events or by the vicissitudes of life, no > matter whether they are desirable or undesirable, such > as gain and loss, praise and blame. At present we > suffer because of being easily disturbed and unstable, > but someone who has firm understanding of kamma can > become unaffected by the vicissitudes of life. > > If one develops the perfection of equanimity, one does > not pay attention to the wrongs of others, as the > Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” explains. One > can be impartial and evenminded, undisturbed by the > wrongs of others; one understands that people will > receive the result of their own kamma. Some people may > think, when others receive unpleasant results, that it > serves them right, but if someone has developed the > perfection of equanimity, he will not think in that > way. He is able to understand paramattha dhammas, > ultimate realities, dhammas which are anattå and > beyond control. .... S: I also liked commentary note given in (17) to one of the Tree suttas in SN 12:60 about the Dhamma being like a thousand goods laid at the door-step of each house. Some people open the door and receive all these goods, whereas others don't even open their door. However difficult our circumstances, however disturbed we are by the worldly conditions, we can open the door and appreciate the thousand goods of the Dhamma in front of us! From the sutta itself: "This dependent origination is deep and deep in implications. It is because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma, Ananda, that this generation has become like a tangled skein, like a knotted ball of thread, like matted reeds and rushes, and does not pass beyond the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world, sa.msaara." Thank you for sharing and encouraging us to open the door to all these gifts in front of us at this very minute. Metta, Sarah ========== #76751 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti hantun1 Dear Sarah, I will have to take time to digest your explanations. If I have any questions I will come back to you later. I have Puggala pa~n~natti in Burmese and in Pali, but I do not have the English translation. I have placed an order for it with PTS. In the later part of the book, there is one question asked by the Buddha and answered by himself. How many kinds of Dhamma-kathika (Dhamma Teachers) are there? There are four. (1) One Teacher teaches very little; not dealing with the subject matter; and the audience does not understand whether what he teaches is in line with subject matter or not. (2) One Teacher teaches very little; dealing with the subject matter; and the audience understands whether what he teaches is in line with subject matter or not. (3) One Teacher teaches quite a lot; not dealing with the subject matter; and the audience does not understand whether what he teaches is in line with subject matter or not. (4) One Teacher teaches quite a lot; dealing with the subject matter; and the audience understands whether what he teaches is in line with subject matter or not. The translations are my translations. In this example, there are definitely “persons”, the teachers and the audience. How will you explain this? [But I am sure you have the appropriate answers all the time :>)] Thank you very much. Respectfuklly, Han #76752 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:38 am Subject: Sketches of roadmaps to awakening in the Suttas. truth_aerator I was looking over the suttas (and other places) for practical roadmap of training. Here are some quotes with some sketches of ideas. Suffering (dukkha), Faith (saddha), Joy (pamojja), Rapture (piti), Tranquility (passaddhi), Happiness (sukha), Concentration (samadhi), Knowledge and vision of things as they are (yathabhutañanadassana), Disenchantment (nibbida), Dispassion (viraga), Emancipation (vimutti), Knowledge of destruction of the cankers (asavakkhaye ñana) 1) Associating with righteous people 2) Listening to true Dhamma 3) Faith 4) Proper attention 5) Mindfulness& clear comprehension 6) Restraint of the senses 7) Good conduct of body, speech & mind 8) 4 foundations of mindfulness 9) 7 factors of awakening 10) Liberation by supreme knowledge AN X.61-62 1) Conscientious, scrupulous, diligent 2) Have Noble friends 3) Become Energetic 4) Become Virtuous 5) Not being a fault finder 6) Gets Undistracted mind 7) Is without mental lassitude 8) Is free from doubt 9) Abandons greed hatred, delusion 10) Freed from birth, suffering, aging & death, AN- X.76 1) Conscience & concern 2) Purity of conduct 3)Restraint of the senses 4) Moderation in eating 5) Wakefulness 6)Mindfulness & alertness 7) Abandoning the hindrances 8) The four jhanas 9) The three knowledges http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html It is interesting that in the first part of DN the practice is almost exclusively: morality + preparation for Jhanas. Attaining triple knowledge and full Liberation. DN# 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11,12,13 (and possibly more suttas.) The Buddha (and many disciples) achieved his enlightment through 4th Jhana. And I think I know why that works. a)Seeing His past lives: He saw the endless suffering of repeated birth/aging and death. He saw just how much the aggregates change so the idea of an Atman was rejected while he was in hindrance free mind. Also he may have remembered instructions of Buddha Kassapa which helped him to look further into phenomenon of impermanence, suffering, not-self. b) Previous lives of others. He saw that he was not the only one. He saw first hand through super knowledge the workings of Kamma. He corrected some crucial misinterpretations that Jains and others had regarding Kamma. c) Through all of this he saw Dependent Origination (DO) happening and realized what he needed to abandon. --- Anupada sutta - Sariputta gained his Arahatship through all 9 Meditative states (4 rupa + 4 arupa + Cessation) Somewhere else, MahaMogallana achieved his full awakening through 9 meditative states + emptiness/signless/themeless + iddhipadda. ---------- It is interesting just how much Jhana was emphasized, I don't think that it should be overlooked. Sila-Samadhi-Panna. First one perfects sila, then Samadhi and finally attains panna. Somewhere in the suttas (ref needed) it says that sotopanna/Sakadagamin perfected Sila, Anagamin Sila+Samadhi, Arahant all three. What this formula shows is that while one can have Sila and no Samadhi (or Panna), one cannot really master Samadhi without Sila. Also a person may have sila and samadhi, but not panna. For Liberating Panna to arise, sila and samadhi must be there. Of course some Panna must be there for Sila, but the level of it is not as high as panna that has samadhi+sila in it. It is also a must to have a good spiritual friend, access to true Dhamma and voice of another. Hindrances arise due to improper attention. For example if one pays too much attention to the repulsive aspects of someone, then anger arises. If someone concentrates too much on attractive features than lust arises. If one focuses too much on rising or existence, then view of eternalism arises. If one focuses only on ceasing then annihilation view arises. If one does not see the full picture of rising and falling then thing can be taken out of context (of everchanging phenomenon) and reified as self existent entities. Suppresion of Hindrances can lead to stream entry. Here is an example of graduated talk: "talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html Buddha in 4th Jhana -> "When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036x.than.html Notice the similiarity between the moment of stream entry and (either "Access" or 4th Jhana). Getting into Jhana by hearing Buddha's discourse... This is original...... Somewhere it is said that "Concentration destroys lust, Vipassana destroys delusion". This doesn't mean that concentration is bad, non- buddhist, or a diversion. First one needs to calm down, suppress the defilements and THEN use vipassana like a surgeon's knife to cut off defilements. A person needs two legs. A non-buddhist who does Jhana, clings to the experience. He thinks that he has found his true self, the highest the ultimate. However a learned disciple of the Buddha doesn't stop at Jhana. One should analyze the Jhanic bliss. Why was it so pleasant? What made it so good? Are there any arising passing away? If so, is it ultimate...? Ultimately, 8 attainments are willed and fabricated and thus unstable impermanent unsatisfactory and not self. Analyzing in such way, a dispassion for mental fashioning, for craving, appears. While non-buddhists only attenuated craving (toward 5 senses) a Buddhist would totally eliminate it. This isn't done simply on intellectual level, this is done at cognitive level - which is what Buddhism is about. To change one's reflexive tendencies from unwholesome and stressful, to wholesome and easeful. The unwholesome cognitive reflexive defilements are (seeing beauty in what is non beutiful. Seeing pleasure in what is not pleasurable. Seeing permanence in what is non-permanent, seeing self in not-self). Since we are moved by pleasure-pain axis (avoiding pain, seeking pleasure) and since Jhana is more pleasurable than sensuality, one who has is Jhana regular will naturally incline toward Jhanic as opposed to sensual bliss. Before that we are slaves to sensuality and thus good friendship, morality and sense restraint is of great importance to minimize slavery of sensuality. Mastery of the Jhana requires morality and a degree of wisdom. Those who have enough wisdom to seek freedom as opposed to bondage of self in Jhana, will achieve Anagamiship. Completely seeing that any sort of volition is painful, either through wisdom or through cessation one can reach Arahatship. Jhana (and eventually Nibbana)is caused by letting go of desire for lesser state and volition for the desired state. "Now, there's the possible case where a certain person is intent on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. When a person is intent on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, that sort of talk interests him, his thinking & evaluating follow along those lines, he feels at home with that sort of person, and his mind gets along with that sort of person. But when talk concerning the dimension of nothingness is going on, he does not listen, does not lend ear, and does not exert his mind to know. He does not get along with that sort of person; his mind does not feel at home with him. "Sunakkhatta, suppose that a person, having eaten some delicious food, were to vomit it up. What do you think — would he have any desire for that food?" "No, lord. Why is that? Because he would consider that food to be disgusting." "In the same way, when a person is intent on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he has vomited up the fetter of the dimension of nothingness. This is how it can be known that 'This person, disjoined from the fetter of the dimension of nothingness, is intent on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' "Now, there's the possible case where a certain person is rightly intent on Unbinding. When a person is rightly intent on Unbinding, that sort of talk interests him, his thinking & evaluating follow along those lines, he feels at home with that sort of person, and his mind gets along with that sort of person. But when talk concerning the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception is going on, he does not listen, does not lend ear, and does not exert his mind to know. He does not get along with that sort of person; his mind does not feel at home with him. "Just as a palm tree with its top cut off is incapable of further growth, in the same way, when a person is rightly intent on Unbinding, he has destroyed the fetter of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, has destroyed it by the root, like an uprooted palm tree deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. This is how it can be known that 'This person, disjoined from the fetter of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, is intent on Unbinding.' " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.105.than.html#vomit From some of the above quotes I think that it answers at least partly why Alara Kalama and Udakka ramaputta did not succeed. First was their atta belief. But not just that, it is not unlikely that they were attached to their refined and peaceful attainments. They thought that samadhi was the goal rather than the MEANS to the goal. It is also possible that they haven't properly analyzed just what made the experience so peaceful. This analysis could have made them see anatta (or portions of it). .. "Samatha and vipassana and samadhi and pa~n~na are, of course, in a sense artificial abstractions. According to Abdhidhmma theoryy, in practice, when the mind is stilled in Jhana there is always some element of pa~n~na involved- in fact a being whose natural mind (bhavanga-citta) is devoid of wisdom is said to be unable to cultivate the Jhanas." - The Buddhist path to awakening pg345 "Dhamma's the best thing for people in this life and the next as well." DN 27 Any comments, suggestions, constructive criticism, additional sutta quotes are welcomed. Lots of Metta, Alex #76753 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (18) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your post. Yes, the Dhamma is like a thousand goods laid at the door-step of each house. It is for us to open the door and take it. U Shwe Aung, a Burmese scholar, gave a similar example. He wrote that the Dhamma is like the rain falling from the sky. The rain falls evenly in the area where it rains. But the amount of rain water received by the people depends on the size of receptacles that the people use. If one uses one litre bottle he gets only one litre of water. If another person uses a gallon tin he gets one gallon of water. So it depends! Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han & all, > > It's helpful to reflect on this more during these > difficult times for many > like the Burmese: #76754 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Hi Tep, Howard (and James, Robert), you wrote: 'First, I am sorry I forgot to answer the "P.S.". Yes, I am' D: I am sorry too .. in my previous message I asked whether you have read the Venerable's definition but recognise now that I did not pay enough attention to your comment.. T: The term "right understanding" is not as simple as it looks. MN 117 describes samma-ditthi (right view) of the two kinds, i.e. " ..right view with fermentations [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without fermentations, transcendent, a factor of the path". D: yes, it is not easy ... Howard may remember too longlasting discussions with another party in respect to the validity of the mundane teaching ..for example refering to rebirth .. 'According to the the Visuddhi-magga (translated by Bhikkhu Nanamoli), understanding is from the Pali 'pa~n~naa'. D: I think , we agree that view and understanding works like a tandem, difficult to separate. So Samma Ditthi is translated in both ways. One could probably say a progress from a beginning understanding to a perfect view ( in respect to the 4 Noble Truths and the world. ).. from a bit of wisdom (panna) to that of an enlighted One.. T: In your opinion what is "Nyanatiloka's interpretation how the 8fold Noble Path to be understood in general"? D: please see my previous message to Howard and you .. Nyanatiloka is refering to his booklet 'Word of the Buddha ' (available on-line) , so in case we want to get deeper with this question we need to have look (which would be worthwhile to do in my opinion , because of its closeness to the Sutta Pitaka) with Metta Dieter P.S.: I would be interested to learn about your opinion ( a Thai voice ;-) ) in the case of the WFB journal chief editor's reply to Ven. Nyanaponika concerning the biography of Acharn Mun ( please see the discussion with Robert under the same topic)... #76755 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Hi Howard and Tep, you wrote: 'I'm not 100% certain of what he is maintaining. I *think* that he is identifying the mundane path with the noble eightfold path, and the four ariyan magga as the supermundane paths, and I think he views the mundane path as the means of cultivation of mind that leads to the supermundane paths. If that is so, then I agree. ;-) D: I think so too .. The supermundane path , that without fermentation (MN 117 ) ,is unfolding for the Ariyan, i.e. right view links right thinking- right speech -right bodily action ( wholesome kamma) which is the base for right effort etc etc. In case of the mundane path the 'sign posts ' , i.e. its elements , are not yet visible and I think that is what the Venerable meant by stating the path isn' t really a path , because only by step to step development it gradually becomes like that (see above). I liked your wording: 'If that is so, then I agree... and like to use it too for my comment ;-). Actually our common understanding is important , less than whether we agree 100% with the wording of the Venerable, isn't it? with Metta Dieter #76756 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter (and Tep) - In a message dated 9/26/2007 1:03:07 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard and Tep, you wrote: 'I'm not 100% certain of what he is maintaining. I *think* that he is identifying the mundane path with the noble eightfold path, and the four ariyan magga as the supermundane paths, and I think he views the mundane path as the means of cultivation of mind that leads to the supermundane paths. If that is so, then I agree. ;-) D: I think so too .. The supermundane path , that without fermentation (MN 117 ) ,is unfolding for the Ariyan, i.e. right view links right thinking- right speech -right bodily action ( wholesome kamma) which is the base for right effort etc etc. In case of the mundane path the 'sign posts ' , i.e. its elements , are not yet visible and I think that is what the Venerable meant by stating the path isn' t really a path , because only by step to step development it gradually becomes like that (see above). I liked your wording: 'If that is so, then I agree... and like to use it too for my comment ;-). Actually our common understanding is important , less than whether we agree 100% with the wording of the Venerable, isn't it? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. In fact, quite generally, one must be clear in one's own mind and clear in expressing to others how one is using language terms. We need to be clear ourselves, and there needs to be a commonality of basic understanding and terminology, else proper communication is very difficult, and there is enormous waste of time and effort "talking past" each other. I also think it is useful to avoid terms that are possibly differently understood, and emphasize exactly what one's perspective is and to what extent folks are in agreement as to the facts. It was along such lines that I wrote my recent post to Sarah & Alex. I felt that there was likely more agreement between them than disagreement, and that this could be made clear by delving into some terminology and avoiding other terminology. ----------------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter ============================ With metta, Howard #76757 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala Pa~n~natti. nilovg Dear Han, Op 26-sep-2007, om 15:57 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > You said that “We cannot always > answer questions with a simple yes or no.” That is > exactly the problem with me. As my knowledge on this > subject is very much limited, I want to have a yes or > no answer. ------- N: But you may discover that the method yes or no oversimplifies things. The Dhamma is deep, difficult to understand, subtle, as we read. If this were not so, we could become arahats immediately. --------- > > H: But first let me see whether I get your points > correctly up to this point. > > (1) The five khandhas *are* citta, cetasika and ruupa. > They are “present” only at the moment of their > arising. > (2) aayatana, (3) dhaatu are naamas and ruupas. > (4) sacca, four noble truths are paramattha dhammas. > The question whether they are present does not seem > relevant. Only nama and rupa that arise are present > for a short moment. This cannot be said of nibbaana. > (5) indriya, they are naama and ruupa and present when > they arise > (6) puggala, this needs a more careful and detailed > answer. > > I hope I get your points correctly up to this point. -------- N: Yes, correct. --------- > For the time being, I will not ask any more about > “puggala.” I will study carefully what you have > explained in detail. If I have something to ask I will > come back later. > > But my next question is: Are (1) The five khandhas, > (2) aayatana, (3) dhaatu, and (5) indriya, paramattha > dhammas or pa~n~natti dhammas? ------ N: They are nama and rupa, paramattha dhammas. This is clear when we read more what they are. Is there any problem here? We can read all the classifications and enumerations of them also in the Suttanta. An example, the indriyas, and here indriya is translated as faculty: We read in the “Visuddhimagga” (XVI, 1) that there are twentytwo indriyas. They are: The five senses which are the faculties of eye, ear, nose, tongue and bodysense mind faculty femininity faculty masculinity faculty life faculty (one is rúpa and one is nåma) bodily pleasure faculty pain faculty pleasant feeling faculty unpleasant feeling faculty equanimity (indifferent feeling) faculty faith faculty energy faculty mindfulness faculty concentration faculty understanding faculty “I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown” faculty (an-aññåtañ- ñassåmí’t’indriya) higher knowledge faculty (aññindriya) faculty of him who knows (aññåtåvindriya) -------- As you see, some are nama and some are rupa. The last three are pa~n~na cetasika, and they are lokuttara. -------- Nina. #76758 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti nilovg Hi Tep, Op 25-sep-2007, om 23:56 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Tep: Option a) is the same as your answer (1) above; it does not end > the inquiry ----- N: never mind. Let us see with what Han comes up next! Nina. #76759 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... nilovg Dear Scott and Tep, Op 26-sep-2007, om 13:54 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Can we move on to a consideration of citta? ------ N: Yea, yea. May I butt in? I think Kh Sujin's Survey gives some food for thought. Part II. Citta: After Scott's quote of the verse we read: Nina. #76760 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (18) moellerdieter Dear Sarah , Han and all , you wrote: 'It's helpful to reflect on this more during these difficult times for many like the Burmese' D: We all may have learnt by now about the present difficult situation in Burma and I think not being alone to be concerned , wishing wholeheartedly for peace and the welfare of the people.. with Metta Dieter #76761 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:05 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi Dieter, - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > 'T: In your opinion what is "Nyanatiloka's interpretation how the 8fold > Noble Path to be understood in general"?' > > D: did you read the definition of ' Magga' at the link I provided? > T: I just wanted to read your thought on Nyanatiloka's interpretation of the Noble Eightfold Path. I did read Nyanatiloka's explanation of the NEP a number of times already. Tep ==== #76762 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:06 pm Subject: Maha Boowa's teaching on Citta. Is it compatible with the Suttas? truth_aerator Hello all at DSG. Maha Boowa (and some famous Thai Ajahns) talk about Citta, the heart, etc etc. Are their views grounded in the suttas or not? Is it possible that they are telling the truth? It is strange that maha Boowa being Pali expert, very knowledgeble and first class meditator would say something very contrary to Buddha's teaching. Is it possible that his description of the "Citta" is unestablished consiousness (viññanam anidassanam) which is part of the Buddha's teaching? ------ Staying at Savatthi... [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what one arranges, and what one obsesses about:1 This is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress. "If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses [about something], this is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress. "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.038.than. html If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn...2.054.than.html "Where there is no passion for the nutriment of consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair. "Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?" "On the western wall, lord." "And if there is no western wall, where does it land?" "On the ground, lord." "And if there is no ground, where does it land?" "On the water, lord." "And if there is no water, where does it land?" "It does not land, lord." "In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food... contact... intellectual intention... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&- form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.064.than .html Notice. The ray does not non exist. It is merely unestablished. Of course this shouldn't be imagined as either eternal existence, or non existence (two extremes the Buddha was against). --- Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing? Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to an end? "'And the answer to that is: Consciousness without feature,1 without end, luminous all around: Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness each is here brought to an end.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html One form of consciousness apparently does not come under the aggregate of consciousness. This is termed viññanam anidassanam — consciousness without a surface, or consciousness without feature. MN 49 says specifically that this consciousness does not partake of the "allness of the all," the "all" being conterminous with the five aggregates. The standard definition of the aggregate of consciousness states that this aggregate includes all consciousness, "past, present, or future... near or far." However, because viññanam anidassanam stands outside of space and time it would not be covered by these terms. Similarly, where SN 22.97 says that no consciousness is eternal, "eternal" is a concept that applies only within the dimension of time, and thus would not apply to this form of consciousness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.109.than.html ------ "'Consciousness without surface, endless, radiant all around, In other words, normal sensory consciousness is experienced because it has a "surface" against which it lands: the sense organs and their objects, which constitute the "all." For instance, we experience visual consciousness because of the eye and forms of which we are conscious. Consciousness without surface, however, is directly known, without intermediary, free from any dependence on conditions at all. This consciousness thus differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. And, as SN 35.23 notes, the word "all" in the Buddha's teaching covers only the six sense media, which is another reason for not including this consciousness under the aggregates. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud I.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud VIII.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time. Some have objected to the equation of this consciousness with nibbana, on the grounds that nibbana is no where else in the Canon described as a form of consciousness. Thus they have proposed that consciousness without surface be regarded as an arahant's consciousness of nibbana in meditative experience, and not nibbana itself. This argument, however, contains two flaws: (1) The term viññanam anidassanam also occurs in DN 11, where it is described as where name & form are brought to an end: surely a synonym for nibbana. (2) If nibbana is an object of mental consciousness (as a dhamma), it would come under the all, as an object of the intellect. There are passages in the Canon (such as AN 9.36) that describe meditators experiencing nibbana as a dhamma, but these passages seem to indicate that this description applies up through the level of non-returning. Other passages, however, describe nibbana as the ending of all dhammas. For instance, Sn V.6 quotes the Buddha as calling the attainment of the goal the transcending of all dhammas. Sn IV.6 and Sn IV.10 state that the arahant has transcended dispassion, said to be the highest dhamma. Thus, for the arahant, nibbana is not an object of consciousness. Instead it is directly known without mediation. Because consciousness without feature is directly known without mediation, there seems good reason to equate the two. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn...9.than.html#n-9 -------- Some say that DN#1, Wrong view #8 disproves Maha Boowa's (or other great Thai Forest Ajahn's statement regarding Citta or Vinnana) Wrong view number 8: "... Here, a certain ascetic or Brahmin is a logician, a reasoner. Hammering it out by reason, following his own line of thought, he argues: `Whatever is called eye or ear or nose or tongue or body, that is impermanent, unstable, non-eternal, liable to change. But what is called thought (citta), [42] or mind (mano) or consciousness (vinnana), that is a self that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, the same for ever and ever!' " http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_w...ajala_sutta.htm Read carefully. It disproves taking these things as a SELF. Just like many other questions Does a Tathagata (exist/not exist/both/neither after death) were refused on the grounds of improperly asked (category mistake) same is here. Furthermore the (Citta, Mano, Vinnana) in that view is belonging to the 6th sense, it is not something not established on the ALL (6 senses etc) Unestablished consiosness is NOT a self, thus it doesn't really fall into Wrong View #8. ------- What about Fire Going out similie? http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.072.than.html "And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?" "That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)." First of all the problem here is that Vacchagotta is thinking in terms of a self. This itself answers quite a lot the reasons why the Buddha kept saying "This doesn't apply". Second. We have to take the fire similie NOT IN A SECULAR 21 century materialistic worldview but in a worldview where and when Buddha lived and preached. We should avoid adding in our understanding. In those times, atleast in Upanishadic worldview fire WAS seen to exist in some latent form even if it has gone out. --- Here are some excerps from Thanissaro Bhikkhu's Mind Like Fire Unbound The discourses report two instances where Brahmans asked the Buddha about the nature of the goal he taught, and he responded with the analogy of the extinguished fire. There is every reason to believe that, in choosing this analogy, he was referring to a concept of fire familiar to his listeners, and, as they had been educated in the Vedic tradition, that he probably had the Vedic concept of fire in mind. This, of course, is not to say that he himself adhered to the Vedic concept or that he was referring to it in all its details. He was simply drawing on a particular aspect of fire as seen in the Vedas so that his listeners could have a familiar reference point for making sense of what he was saying. Now, although the Vedic texts contain several different theories concerning the physics of fire, there is at least one basic point on which they agree: Fire, even when not manifest, continues to exist in a latent form. The Vedic view of all physical phenomena is that they are the manifestation of pre-existent potencies inherent in nature. Each type of phenomenon has its corresponding potency, which has both personal & impersonal characteristics: as a god and as the powers he wields. In the case of fire, both the god & the phenomenon are called Agni: Agni, who is generated, being produced (churned) by men through the agency of sahas.— RV 6,48,5 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...kefire/2-1.html 'As the material form of fire, when latent in its source, is not perceived — and yet its subtle form is not destroyed, but may be seized again in its fuel-source... -SvU 1.13-14 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...kefire/2-1.html --------- We all know what happens when a fire goes out. The flames die down and the fire is gone for good. So when we first learn that the name for the goal of Buddhist practice, nibbana (nirvana), literally means the extinguishing of a fire, it's hard to imagine a deadlier image for a spiritual goal: utter annihilation. It turns out, though, that this reading of the concept is a mistake in translation, not so much of a word as of an image. What did an extinguished fire represent to the Indians of the Buddha's day? Anything but annihilation. According to the ancient Brahmans, when a fire was extinguished it went into a state of latency. Rather than ceasing to exist, it became dormant and in that state — unbound from any particular fuel — it became diffused throughout the cosmos. When the Buddha used the image to explain nibbana to the Indian Brahmans of his day, he bypassed the question of whether an extinguished fire continues to exist or not, and focused instead on the impossibility of defining a fire that doesn't burn: thus his statement that the person who has gone totally "out" can't be described. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...ro/nibbana.html Descriptions of Nibbana. Is it cold nothingness? The unfashioned, the end, the effluent-less*, the true, the beyond, the subtle, the very-hard-to-see, the ageless, permanence, the undecaying, the featureless, non-differentiation, peace, the deathless, the exquisite, bliss, solace, the exhaustion of craving, the wonderful, the marvelous, the secure, security, nibbana, the unafflicted, the passionless, the pure, release, non-attachment, the island, shelter, harbor, refuge, the ultimate.— S XLIII.1-44 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors...kefire/2-0.html It is very interesting that the Buddha has argued against Atta (The Self) conception based on 5 aggregates using lack of permanence, lack of bliss, lack of self control arguments. (Anatalakkhana sutta). The Nibbana is permanent and blissful and all those (33) things except for it being not-Self. So while the search for "Self" is ultimately fruitless, Nibbana seems to share many (but not all) of the characteristics of the Self which Anatta lacked. Please don't misinterpret the above quotes in support of Eternalism. Unestablished (or without feature) consiousness should NOT be misunderstood as self (for self requires categories and differentuation). It is NOT "Allness", "Unity" or diversity, "Existence" or Non-existence. It is beyond time, and while it is not eternal - it is timeless (akaliko). Lots of Metta, Alex P.S. Again, please forgive me for such a long post... #76763 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala Pa~n~natti. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind clarification. There is no problem here, and I have no more questions, for the time being. Once again, I am grateful to you for your kind patience with me. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: They are nama and rupa, paramattha dhammas. This > is clear when we read more what they are. Is there any problem here? #76764 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:02 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... indriyabala Dear Scott, - The "lesson" is becoming longer, so I am going to trim some parts that are not relevant. Scott: I've gotten used to this pattern, thank you. I'll stop the banter, Tep, since I see that it must be somewhat upsetting. T: Don't worry about the jesting; it does not bother me. ........... You also wrote that Dhamma discussion was "said to be kusala" and you hoped for that. And I replied that it would be kusala if we wanted it that way. Scott: I don't think so. Maybe, in the midst of the discussion, there will be moments of kusala, but not because we wanted them to be... T: Again, that "moments of kusala" idea is idealistic. In the real world it is not like that ! Before writing down a sentence, while writing it, and after having writen it, I usually reflect on using words that do not provoke anger or iritate the other person(s). Because I want/intend to adhere to good speech, that's why the result is usually wholesome. Consult MN 61, Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta, if you are not clear what I mean. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.061.than.html .......... Scott: I'd appreciate an answer to the question, though: What is your label for the view you defend - the view that opposes the 'purist' stance? T: The answer is: the view that opposes the purist stance is a practical view of people in the "conventional" world. For example, the view the Buddha taught Rahula with respect to the three wholesome actions (three right conducts). It was plain and simple enough for anyone, young or old, Buddhist or not, to understand and apply in the daily life. "All those brahmans & contemplatives at present who purify their bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions, do it through repeated reflection on their bodily actions, verbal actions, & mental actions in just this way. "Thus, Rahula, you should train yourself: 'I will purify my bodily actions through repeated reflection. I will purify my verbal actions through repeated reflection. I will purify my mental actions through repeated reflection.' That's how you should train yourself." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Rahula delighted in the Blessed One's words. [MN 61] ......... Scott: I've never quite made sense of this particular line of reasoning you adduce, that being this notion that there is one world for the 'non-ariyan mind' and another for the 'ariyan mind'. Since you keep returning to this I'll assume it is a fixed idea for you, and therefore leave you to it. It is wrong, in my view. T: The word 'world' here means perception or perspective or view about the realities. What you perceive Ithrough the mind) as realities is different from others who are not familiar with the ultimate sense of viewing. Hence, you are not in the same 'world' that the other persons live, so to speak. .......... Scott: Why? 'Mind' is citta and cetasika - naama. Whether ariyan or non-ariyan, realities are the same. Yes, for the ariyan there are well-developed kusala dhammas. These dhammas are, for the non-ariyan, not well-developed. These realities exist all the same. T: If you stop at that, then your understanding is the same as mine. But if you go on to reject the 'puggala' as being just "labels", "conceptual", and "non-existent", and say "there is no Buddha, there is no one practicing the Dhamma", then we are in two different worlds. ;-) .......... >T: "But the 'understanding that wholes are not what they seem' is much higher than a bookworm's intellectual understanding, Scott. Can you show me (or prove) how you know that such understanding is true, i.e. it is not due to your own imagination ? As an analogy : a physics student may tell us that he understands (from his University Physics 102) that the whole piece of copper in his hand is "more than what it seems", because it consists of protons, electrons, and sub-particles. He may also say that we see copper as copper is only because we are ignorant of the Physics principles. But does he really see the copper atoms, or he thinks they are inside the piece of copper in his hand because The Book tells him so?" Scott: I don't know where you get your anti-intellectual stance, nor how you feel it is relevant to constantly apply it to, say, me, whose accumulations merely differ from yours. You'd find my replies twice as hot were I to take off the gloves and meet each ad hominem argument you make with one of my own. T: Oh, I did not have any idea that my plain-and-simple explanation would make you angry. Where have all the "no Tep, no Scott" and pure paramattha-dhammas idealism gone? ;-) ......... Scott: Abhidhamma is Dhamma. The Buddha taught that which no one else could teach because of his perfect realisation of it. He described reality and the way to knowing it. You appear to dismiss an intellectual learning of the teaching based on some misapplied aversion to something you seem to refer to as 'Bookwormism'. This learning is a first step that no one of us can avoid. Following your line of reasoning to its logical conclusion, you seem to be suggesting that no one can go from hearing or learning the teaching intellectually to knowing it experientially. Since I see in you a great deal of sadhaa as well, differently based and textured given your own unique set of accumulations, I'm sure that this is not the argument you wish to make and therefore do not misunderstand you. T: There is no need to tell me how wonderful the Abhidhamma (that was taught by the Greatest Sage to the Arahant Sariputta) is, because I have no problem accepting it. And I believe I already wrote a number of posts here stating that "the problem" has not been with the Buddha's Abhidhamma, but rather with the interpretations of it (by the non-ariyans, of course). Perhaps, I should make a long list of these "interpretations" that I have seen here, and post them with an explanation why I think they are wrong. But it may be just a barking up the wrong tree. Because who am I to assume that role anyway? ;-) ........... Scott: Let's discuss citta. I know that you no more consider yourself to be my student than I consider myself to be your teacher. We're just two guys discussing Dhamma - and what could be better than that! Can we move on to a consideration of citta? T: Of course, Scott, of course -- if you promise not to "take off the gloves" like you have threatened to do. Yes, we can. I happily concur with you that we move on to citta. Thanks. Tep === #76765 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. dcwijeratna Dear Alex, To me di.t.hi appears to be a neutral word. We have micchaa di.t.thi also. Moreover, puthujjanas (worldlings) must have di.t.thi. Only ariyas have knowledge, knowledge here is used in the sense of Early Buddhism or yathaabhuuta ~naa.na dassana. With respect to your "letting go", it is not only di.t.thi but you have to let go of everything. So letting go is the most positive in Buddhism. You start letting go with daana (giving). If di.t.thi is 'negative' because you have to let go then by the same token daana is also 'negative'. This is the impression I get. Is anything wrong with this line of reasoning? With mettaaa D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76766 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 dcwijeratna Dear Dieter, What is the difference between the mundane path and the supramundane path. I thought that there was only one path- the Noble Eightfold Path? With mettaa D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76767 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sketches of roadmaps to awakening in the Suttas. dcwijeratna Dear Alex, We traditional Buddhists in Sri Lanka follow the Noble Eightfold Path--If you a householder (layman) then travel little slowly. It is also sila-samaadhi-pa~n~naa. Sila controls you words and deeds, samaadhi the mind. and Pa~n~naa knowledge. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76768 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:04 pm Subject: Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views indriyabala Hi Jon (and Scott), - This message is written with Scott in mind; he is a friend of yours who has similar ideas concerning the ultimate realities and concepts. Jon: Many thanks for expressing this view. I'm glad to have the chance to address the question further. T: I appreciate your open-minded attitude and gentlemanliness. ...... T: Your reply to Swee has the following key points. 1. J: To my understanding of the Buddha's teaching, the things that exist in the ultimate (i.e., deepest) sense are those things described in the suttas as the khandhas, dhatus, ayatanas, etc., the 'dhammas'. The 'practice' taught by the Buddha is the development of insight into the true nature of dhammas. 2. J: Conventional objects are not dhammas that have existence in the ultimate sense. There is no characteristic capable of being directly experienced as aeroplane, chariot, or person. 3. J: The world of dhammas and the conventional world are different worlds. 4. J: As explained above, my understanding of the teachings is that in terms of dhammas and the direct experience of them, 'aeroplane' is a thought or idea only. There is no dhamma that is aeroplane. 'Aeroplane' has no existence in the ultimate sense. Conventionally, of course, there is an aeroplane, and the arahant does not deny the conventional world. However, he is no longer taken in by it. 5. J: I agree that to the extent that Jon's landing in Fiji is real, then so must be the plane that took him there. .................... T: Thank you very much for the careful reply that shows your intention to avoid ambiguity. I know that your concern was to make a clarification of the previous reply to Swee. But since I made the inquiry, I have an obligation to give some comments. Please bear with me. I do not require that you respond to them. :-) 1. There are "things" in the suttas that are not in the ultimate sense, such as the eight ariya-puggalas (noble disciples), devas, Mara, householders, monks, other beings (in other worlds, e.g. hells), iddhi (supernormal powers, e.g. recollection of previous lives), attapa.tilabha (DN 9), attabhaava (AN 3.125, DN 33), anapanasati, kasinas, external khandhas in the past & future, far or near, etc. 2. Aeroplane, chariot and a person are formations that show the impermanent nature too. Don't they? 3. The world of dhammas is in the mind of a person(puggala) who eats, walks, sleeps, etc. in the real world. Yes, the two worlds are different, but they are not separated. 4. Part of your idea in 4. contradicts with 5. Tep === #76769 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 4. dcwijeratna Dear Nina, Your post dated 26 Sep 07. You say >Nina: Some people wonder whether it is necessary first to develop samatha and after that vipassanå. The Buddha did not set any rules with regard to samatha as a requirement for the development of insight. As far as we are aware the Buddha set rules only in Vinaya. Those rules are for the governance of the institution which goes by the name of Sangha or the community of bhikkhus. Everything else the Buddha was Satthaa - or the teacher. This is very aptly expressed in the following line from Dhammapada. "Tumhehi kicca.m aatappa.m akkhaataaro tathaagata." The most detailed explanation of the path is in DN. The saama~n~naphala sutta is very instructive. There you get the complete path (repeated in many suttas). You have to go through Sila, then Samadhi and reach the 4th Jhaana. Then you need to concentrate on "knowledge and vision" "yathaabhuuta ~naanadassana". When you succeed in that you become a sotapanna. So that is the position according to Buddhavacana. How do you define insight? It can have two meanings in ordinary parlance-Seeing something that you don't see. The other is basically that it is a mystery; yo can't explain it by what we would call rational cognitive processes. Communication would become very meaningful only if the meanings of words are agreed. Mettaa D.C. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76770 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Conditions, Ch 15, no 7. dcwijeratna Dear Nina, You wrote (Wednesday, September 26, 2007 5:36:50 PM) >Nina: "Sammå-sati, right mindfulness, is non-forgetfulness of what is wholesome. Mindfulness arises with each sobhana citta." In the first sentence you say "right mindfulness". However, in the second sentence there is no "right". Is that a typo or intentional. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76771 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:42 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "there is no 'person'" - "The controversy on 'person' is ended" dacostacharles Hi all, I could not help to jump into this thread in my usual manner: All this talk pointing to no-person is interesting, it gives me the impression that end of suffering comes by not believing in its existence. Charles DaCosta _____ #76772 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:51 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: "there is no 'person'" - "The controversy on 'person' is ended" dacostacharles Hi all again, All this talk about Right view and the Abidharmic view of dhammas as the Right View makes me as one question: How many members of this school of Taught have reach enlightenment -- even if it is to a small degree? I think the answer to that question will determine how correct the view is, or at least the interpretation of the view. I fear philosophical padding as a means for blinding ones-self to the realities at hand – i.e., Samsara. Charles DaCosta _____ T: It is a very good observation that the special laws of Quantum Mechanics do not supercede the classical laws of Physics. It is because they are valid in their own domains. In the same token the conventional truths are not invalidated by the Paramattha dhamma principles. ............. D: Likewise when we do not apply the Abhidhamma in a proper way , we may set the chariot in front of the horses.. T: Right, a wrong view can create an illusion; but in the eye of the beholder everything is perfect. Tep === <...> #76773 From: "colette" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:03 pm Subject: Co-incidental Nature? ksheri3 Good dAy Group, Recently my roomate's mom was visiting me and we were discussing how horendously my roomates treat me. I said that I am ready to move into an apt. on my own if I can find help to move what little things I have into a new apartment. This is now being researched as to where I can go to or if the mother and her boyfriend can find a place big enough for all three of us. Today I've cleaned the house, a small single family, two bedroom home, and what do I receive for my effort and work, a gift I give to keep the household running, nothing. I take it since the society wants me living there and wants me being prostituted since that is all the society knows, prostitution. My body is still very sore from the beating I took a week ago with a baseball bat, but that's another story. Today I run into this post in another forum: 'Your mind is always one of these three: lost mind, empty mind, or clear mind. On the street, a thief comes up. "Give me your money!" How is your mind then? Somebody says sex mind is Zen mind, but if you suddenly found a gun in your face while you're making love, would your mind move? If you're afraid you'll lose your life, you have lost your mind. Empty mind won't move. "This is a hold up!" "Om mani padme hum. Om mani padme hum. Om mani padme hum." "You want some lead in your head?" "Om mani padme hum. Om mani padme hum..." "Are you crazy?" "Om mani padme hum...'' Crazy/sane, alive/dead. It is all one to empty mind. And clear mind? "Give me money!" "How much do you want?" "Shut up, you... give me all of it!" No fear. Just check the mind behind the gun.' -Seung Sahn Senim From the Vajrayana perspective, fear is not to be avoided, the physical reaction is actually a great way to heighten one's attention and awareness. The problem is to change our reaction to fear from one of avoidance to one of openness. ---------------------- And I read this from one of the manuscripts I'm reading: oops wront page, lets start that again: "The buddha explains that a bodhisattva should not dwell anywhere when giving (which is the first of six paramitas i.e. perfections). Not to dwell anywhere is for the bodhisattva not to think that there is actually any giving occuring when he gives: Any and all aspects of the event of giving are ultimately empty. Likewise the bodhisattvaa should not dwell in sounds, smells, tastes, tanglible objects or dharmas, i.e. thoughts. ()it seems that to dwell on anything when one gives is to dwell on sight, thereby completing the list of the six external objects of the twelve sense fields.) Not to dwell on these is to live in the light of the fact that all sense objjects are empty ,devoid of undiconditioned and permanent being. It is repeated that the bodhisattva should not dwell in marks when he gives, meaning that he should not assume that there are any uncodnitioned and permanent elements in any event of giving. This will produce virtue for the bodhisattva." This brought me back to 1981-2 when I lived shortly in Villa Park IL and during Novemember or December I read a Tribune story concerning a boy dyeing from a disease he had from birth. I went down town Chicago and bought him about $100 or $200 worth of toys, mainly stuffed animals, because at the time, it seemed that he would never know what love is. The human condition of being with others and having them as being part of you or me or.... So I gave him mainly stuffed animals so that he could inbue them with love from himself. Children seem to have that capability to gain companionship from baubles & trinkets, from their IMAGINATION. This is a function of lacking conditioning, in a sense. I have to go for the time being but certainly want to continue this and pull it all together since I know that a force is building and I hold the keys to unlock it, unfortunately I haven't found the correct keys or the force is still not where it needs to be so that it can be unlocked. toodles, colette #76775 From: "colette" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. ksheri3 Good Morning Sarah, and Group, I've run into a significant characteristic of mine: yesterday I used the word "suchness" since I felt confident enough of my grasp of the word to use it. Last night I was proud of myself for using it and I meditated upon that characteristic which caused me to use the word. Here is another characteristic I've noticed, a significant characterist I might add, to any person that has been following my interaction with these esoteric groups since 2004. Just now I took my break from the computer to read, concentrate on material I've been reading and print the ten pages that I could print today. I read: "Subhuti, what do you think? is the Tathagata to be seen by his physcial marks? No, world-honored One; the Tathagata cannot be seen by his physical marks. And why? BEcause the Tathagata has said that physical marks are no physical marks. Buddha said: Subhuti, all with marks is empty and false. If you can see all marks as no marks then you see the Tathagata." I had been previously, on my way walking to the library, thinking of cars, automobiles, as a sign of Self: "To have a mark of self is belief in the existence of an independent and permanent self; to have a mark of others is belief in the existencxe of independent and permanent being in relation to the self. Likewise, to have a mark of living beings means to believe in the existence of categories of living beings (e.g. species or some other means of classification) that are distinct from one another; to have a mark of life is to believe in the existence of a permanent entity that transmigrates from body to body." Stratification of social classes is "...to believe in the existence of categories of living beings..." since social classes are distict categories of classes of people. Why, I'm quite the bumb and fit the profile of the bumb very well thank you. But that is because I take what is given and what is given is garbage. therefore I am seen as being a bumb, without potential, someone to be mocked continually or someone to be ignored completely. People see the clothes I wear, the way my body is kept, where I live, how I have to stand in line at food pantries or soup kitchens to eat, etc.as being the marks, the distinguishing characteristics of a loser, someone to be scorned, etc. As I was saying concerning automobiles, these are marks of possession. That which an individual possesses also possesses the individual. (These are metaphysical concepts and works to reach the higher states of consciousness). The individual possesses the automobile and thus sees, knows, the automobile to be an outward expression of the individual driving and owning the automobile. Any person that knows anything about REPRESENTATIONS knows that numbers do represent individuals and license plate numbers represent not o nly an individual but also an insurance company (protection raquet), a home address (mortgage lender and protection raquet for the mortgage), a ZONE IMPORVEMENT PLAN aka Zip Code, which denotes an entire host of other consciousnesses, etc. So, clothes and automobiles are the individual. The clothes and the automobile are freely given that status by the people that cognize these objects as being sentient beings. (Psst, it is possible to pass through walls, etc, since the walls, obscurations, are the manifestation of others that have no clue as to what they are freely choosing to congize and accept as reality). But these automobiles are not the person. They are cognitions of some hallucination that never existed and will never exist but is transiet since it only exists as long as the sucker that owns the automobile wants it to exist I'm gonna laugh my way through this as we get through this part and what I can get to of Sarah's post. "What is conditioned is understood as empty (sunya), that is, empty of own-being. The coditioned nature of all dharmas is compated to the Jewel Net of Indra, which consists of jewels that are each reflected in all the other jewels therby giving the collection of jewels its brilliance. The point is that all the jewels are co-dependent for their quality of brilliance. Only that which is unconditioned can be said to have own-being and to exist truly." When I read that last night I realized a part of my old website I had in 2000-01 where I compared the value of a tree in Siberia to a tree in any part of the U.S.A. since the trees were used to make money, currency. They are all trees. What makes the value of a tree in Siberia less than a tree in the U.S.A.? Who says that the dollar (american currency) is more or less than the rubble (Russian currency)? These are all condititioned thoughts and are reached at by the willingness and ability of the people that have the defilements within them and who are growing the defilements as the means of existance: placing their bets on a guaranteed losing hand. Now lets see what I can get out of Sarah here, can a mizer squeeze blood from a turnip? Hmmmmm, good thought, no? > > However it does NOT mean that color does not exist. Please don't > > misread what was said. Because we can (see,hear,smell,taste,touch, > > think) object it means that it doesn't have its own self nature. colette: agreed Alex, "If something were not empty it would be unconditioned and permanent but there is nothing in this phenomenal world that nmeets the criteria of being non-empty." > .... > S: It has a sabhava which is different from any other dhamma. This is why > we read about khandhas too, because each dhamma has a particular sabhava, colette: NO, Dhammas are empty of self-nature, each and every dhamma is dependent on other dhammas for its existance. The Skanhas ARE SUFFERING, DHUKKA. They contribute to ignorance and obscure the path pf the Prajna-Paramita which is where the chakras, in Tibetan buddhism, all begin and they issue their force through the Heart Sutra: "Sariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness. They do not appear or disappear, are not tainted or pure, do not increase or decreasse. Therefore, in emptiness no form, no feelings, no perceptions, impulses, consciousness. No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind, no color no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind, no realm of eyes, and so forth until no realm of mind consciousness. No ignorance and also no extinction of it, and so forth unitl no old age and death and slo no exitinction of them. No suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path, no cognition, also no attainment with nothing to attain." --------------------------------------------- > a particular characteristic, yet all rupas have the rupa characteristic in > common, they are rupa khandha. colette: rupas are dependent on you, the individual, that is willing and able to give the rupa substance, give it anything, since it is not eternal or self-existant. All rupas have YOU in common. All rupas need YOU to give them substance and focus their objectivity on obtaining you as if you were a bauble, a barbie doll, sitting on a shelf which the rupas can purchase then display on a shelf as a trinket or bauble, or the purchaser can play with the doll as all children play with dolls. Ask the monks and nuns in Burma if they appreciate being treated as a trinket that the government owns and plays with for the amusement of the government. How do ya think I feel living in the conditions I have to live in since 1981? That Bush family ain't goin very far, I can assure you. -------------------------------------------- > ..... > > Even language is concepts, is without a self nature. > ... > S: Yes, concepts are concepts. As such they don't have sabhava or lakkhana > (characteristics). colette: I'm reading real fast now not much time left, and I justread that "lakkhana" and IMMEDIATELY SAID TO MYSELF: "what is she talking about I don't know the Lankavatara Sutra that well" before I realized that it was just a pali word not the name of the island Sri Lanka. LOL -------------------------------- = By definition, they are merely conceptualised. When the > teachings refer to the ti-lakkhana of anicca, dukkha and anatta, they are > not referring to concepts. colette: my ignorance is rising, maybe because I don't have that much time to concentrate on the statements. ------------------------------------- > ..... > <...> > > > Please forgive me for such messy writing of some notes. > ... > S: Not in the least messy - thank you very much for sharing them. Pls > share more of your notes! > ... > >Hopefully > > this will be some food for thought, which will lead to dispassion and > > cessation of craving for phenomenon that will appear/cease when the > > conditions are right. Why crave for something unstable and constantly > > becoming otherwise? Why build theories that are but expression of > > ones preferences? Why not observe phenomenon as it is. A flux of > > rising and falling. What is to be passionate about? Dispassion and > > detachment all the way!!! colette: I knew it was coming, Alex. While I agree with those very profound words you've just given to our group here, it's just another sign that you're letting certain aspects of yourself blind your sight and control your mind. I've seen it everywhere I go, from Dr. Sanford Drobb and kaballah to Bill Heidrick and the O.T.O. to countless christians/jews and muslims, and there's nothing anybody can do about it. I orignially thought it was named as ZEALOTRY which caused me to look into the characteristics of a ZEALOT but now I'm begining to see it is more deeper in the un-conscious, it's almost one of CG Jung's INSTICTS. Now you're aware of my perceptions and now you may choose to look into your characteristics, as I have done with my own characteristics and have shared some with you today. There is a very thin line between OVERCONFIDENCE and PANIC, so don't tgake it too deeply, remember, I said I wanted to laugh my way through this the rest of the day. ----------------------------------------------- > .... > S: Agreed!!! Dispassion and detachment all the way!!! I like that > expression. > colette: yes Alex does have a good grasp of the doctrines and he expresses himself equally as nice but just as there is a thin line between OVERCONFIDENCE and PANIC that same thin line exists between a belief which can be a faith AND the stupidity of BLIND OBEDIENCE. thanx. toodles, colette #76776 From: "colette" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:40 am Subject: Jetsons meet the Jetsons, they're a modern.... ksheri3 GOOD MORNING SARAH AND GROUP, I AM READING THIS MASTERPIECE RIGHT NOW THAT IS TOTALLY COOL. I LAUGH SINCE IT IS THE JOY INSIDE OF ME SHOWING THE IGNORANCE THAT EXISTS EXTERNALLY AND INVADES INTERNALLY. Sarah, as for your reply here. You continually try to IDENTIFY PARTS and in identifying the parts you limit the parts. The reason you identify the parts and try to limit the parts is to make a whole of something. The parts are empty. the whole, whatever that may be, IS EMPTY, SUNYA. This is Han Tun's pet peive, and I think I can see it now, it is ALL CONCEPTUALIZATION ON YOUR PART. > > > For example color is dependent on conditions. If the eye is > > malfunctioning then the color will not be perceived or it will be > > incorrectly seen. If color had its own characteristic then even blind > > people would see and the color would somehow impose itself to the > > consciousness even of a dead person. > .... > S: No, because we read again and again that in order for colour to be > seen, there has to be a)seeing consciousness, b)eye-base, c)contact (and > d)light). Clearly these dhammas don't arise in a dead person or someone > completely blind. colette: here for instance, you say that "dhammas don't arise" which is a conceptualization: dhammas are emptiness and emptiness is/are the dhammas. These dhammas are only conceptualizations WHICH EXIST ONLY BECAUSE OF OTHER DHAMMAS, each and every dhamma is and exists only BECAUSE OF OTHER DHAMMAS. Without the other dhammas then not even a single dhamma would exist, relatively. ------------------------------------------ There has to be the meeting of the ayatanas for any > experience to take place. colette: here is an even bigger conception of some kind of intersection (to those of you who have been following my posts lately I just mentally said to myself that "I'm doing it again" in reference, rationalizing as a means of asserting something that is worthless.) In order to have an ayatana you have to have two or more objects to cross paths, intersect i.e. a bullet cannot kill a person unless it intersects with a body. (I can think of some humor from the late Robert Anton Wilson concerning an Indian guru that made an amulet to stop bullets and died when he tried to prove that it can stop bullets), so you've conceptualized more than a single thing, now you've gone and given these concepts, YOUR CONCEPTS, action (Kriya) and you've constructed a fairily phantasmic world. STILL, (pregnant pause) IT DOES NOT EXIST, IT IS SHUNYA. ROFL. --------------------------------- > ..... > >Since this doesn't happen, since > > color is dependent on conditions - it has no its own characteristics. > .... > S: Colour or visible object is dependent on conditions as are all sankhara > dhammas. They have their own characteristics. The characteristic of > visible object is different from sound. The characteristic of visible > object is also different from seeing consciousness. colette: IMPOSSIBLE! How can you say in one sentence "they have their own characteristics" which clearly shows that you endow these things that are visable with characteristics and then turn around and even try to bamboozle the crowd with this slight of hand trick saying "characteristic of visible object is also different from seeing consciousness"? How can you congize, be conscious, to dictate "their own characteristics" then say that "different from seeing consciousness"? You or the person EITHER DID OR DID NOT, CONGIZE OR exhibit distinguishing MARKS of being conscious. ooops, gots ta go for the time being. Thanx for the fun this morning Sarah. toodles, colette <....> #76777 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:20 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Some Findings About Self and Self Views indriyabala Hi Jon (and Howard), - After posting a reply to you, I found the following from Sarah's research about 'pa~n~natti', the "concepts" that unfortunately includes khandha, aayatana, and dhaatu. So what do you say now that khandha, aayatana, and dhaatu are ultimate realities? Sarah(#76748)) : "At the outset, the author classifies the 'pa~n~natti,' or notion into group (khandha), locus (aayatana), element (dhaatu), truth (sacca), faculty (indriya), and person (puggala). Of these six, the last one is the subject-matter of this work. In the treatment of the subject, the author first gives a Table of Contents of the whole work, and then follows the method of the Anguttara Nikaaya...." Tep === #76778 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:21 pm Subject: Trim reminder dsgmods Hi All, Just the usual reminder- Trimming When replying to another post, please remember to trim any part of the other post that is not necessary for your reply. If the post you are replying to is a recent one, you may assume that other members will have seen it. We'd also like to remind new members to make it clear whom they are addressing and to sign off with your (preferably real) name which we can address you by. We appreciate your co-operation. Jon and Sarah PS The full guidelines can be found in the files section. Comments or questions off-list only. Thanks #76779 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti indriyabala Dear Sarah and Han, - At the end of the message you asked : S: I hope this helps a little. T: With all due respect, no, Sarah, it does not help. ;-)) I am explaining below. Reason 1. The article/book you used as a reference includes khandha, aayatana, and dhaatu in the "concepts" group. But these dhammas are known to the DSG Abhidhammikas as ultimate realities. Is the author wrong, or have you all been wrong for a long time? I hope the former is the case. "At the outset, the author classifies the 'pa~n~natti,' or notion into group (khandha), locus (aayatana), element (dhaatu), truth (sacca), faculty (indriya), and person (puggala). Of these six, the last one is the subject-matter of this work. In the treatment of the subject, the author first gives a Table of Contents of the whole work, and then follows the method of the Anguttara Nikaaya...." .... T: Reason 2. Under the heading "Grouping of Human Types by One" the author lists five types of human (please note the word "human") as follows. "In what ways is there a designation of human types? 1- Grouping of Human Types by One. "(1) One who is emancipated in season (samayavimutto) (2) One who is emancipated out of season (asamayavimutto) (3) One of perturbable nature.(kuppadhammo) (4) One of imperturbably nature.(akuppadhammo) (5) One liable to fall away (gotrabhuu)..... T: It is not amibiguous at all that human is not the same as consciousness (citta). But you went on to change "human" into citta as follows. Amazing ! S: So, in reality, are these people or cittas? I'd suggest (with the help of the notes)these refer to: (1) The path cittas of the sotapanna, sakadagami and anagami, i.e to sotapatti-magga citta and so on. (2) The path cittas of the sukkhavipassaka-khii.naasavas (Arahants who do not practise Jhaana - comy) (3) The cittas of the putthujana,sotapanna and sakadagami having attained the 8 samaapattis (absorptions/jhanas) (4) The cittas of the anagami or arahant having attained the 8 samaapatis. (5) The citta which is succeeded by the ariyan magga citta, referring here, 'According to the Commentary....to a person who has reached the family, circle, or designation of Ariyas....'. Again, this is referring in an absolute sense to a series of cittas only. In other words, all sammuti sacca using various pa~n~natti, but always to designate and point again to absolute realities. ......... T: Nice try, Sarah. But your "suggestion" fails to convince me, because it does not make sense. Tep === #76780 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. truth_aerator Dear Wijeratna, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > To me di.t.hi appears to be a neutral word. >>>>> Ditthi is one of the floods. Of course the process of refining ditthi is a gradual one and one shouldn't move too quick and deny everything. There is mundane right view and supermundane. >>>>>>>>>>>> We have micchaa di.t.thi also. Moreover, puthujjanas (worldlings) must have di.t.thi. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They do. >>>>>>>>>>> Only ariyas have knowledge, knowledge here is used in the sense of Early Buddhism or yathaabhuuta ~naa.na dassana. >>>>>>>>> Yes. >>>>>>>>>>>> > With respect to your "letting go", it is not only di.t.thi >>>>>>>>>> It is an action to be performed. It is not a fully blown up theory. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but you have to let go of everything. So letting go is the most positive in Buddhism. You start letting go with daana (giving). If di.t.thi is 'negative' because you have to let go then by the same token daana is also 'negative'. This is the impression I get. Is anything wrong with this line of reasoning? > > With mettaaa > > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dana is very good and certainly has time and place. However if one is simply doing dana, than it is not ideal. Eventually Dana may be "Metta meditation", and eventually it may be "Dhamma teaching". The gift of Dhamma excells all other gifts - Dhamapada (I think). Lots of Metta, Alex #76781 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:07 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi Dieter, - Thanks for responding to my post with more information. > > D: I think , we agree that view and understanding works like a tandem, difficult to separate. So Samma Ditthi is translated in both ways. One could probably say a progress from a beginning understanding to a perfect view ( in respect to the 4 Noble Truths and the world. ).. from a bit of wisdom (panna) to that of an enlighted One.. > T: I think so. > D: I would be interested to learn about your opinion (a Thai voice ;-) ) in the case of the WFB journal chief editor's reply to Ven. Nyanaponika concerning the biography of Acharn Mun ( please see the discussion with Robert under the same topic)... > T: I have read/studied every lecture Acharn gave, and am convinced that Acharn Mun was an Ariyan. That deepest respect of him might bias my opinion, therefore I should stay out of the discussion. Tep ==== #76782 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 indriyabala Hi Howard and Dieter, - I have read every post between you two on the mundane & supramundane paths. I'd like to give a comment on Howard's concluding remark (below). .............. > Dieter: > I liked your wording: 'If that is so, then I agree... and like to use it too for my comment ;-). > Actually our common understanding is important , less than whether we agree 100% with the wording of the Venerable, isn't it? > --------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes. In fact, quite generally, one must be clear in one's own mind and clear in expressing to others how one is using language terms. We need to be clear ourselves, and there needs to be a commonality of basic understanding and terminology, else proper communication is very difficult, and there is enormous waste of time and effort "talking past" each other. I also think it is useful to avoid terms that are possibly differently understood, and emphasize exactly what one's perspective is and to what extent folks are in agreement as to the facts. It was along such lines that I wrote my recent post to Sarah & Alex. I felt that there was likely more agreement between them than disagreement, and that this could be made clear by delving into some terminology and avoiding other terminology. > T: I second your proposal, Howard. Here in this unique group we have two systems of terminology, if I am not mistaken. 1) The Abhidhammic terminology, and 2) the Sutta terminology that is based on the "conventional truths". So, what do you suggest which terminology is to be avoided in order that the members may reach "more agreement"? Thanks. Tep === #76783 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti hantun1 Dear Sarah and Tep, I fully agree with Tep. If I were as good as Tep in writing, I would have written the same thing. Respectfully, Han --- Tep Sastri wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Han, - > > At the end of the message you asked : > > S: I hope this helps a little. > > T: With all due respect, no, Sarah, it does not > help. ;-)) > I am explaining below. #76784 From: han tun Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:14 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (19) hantun1 Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 10: The Perfection of Equanimity, taken from the book “The Perfections leading to Enlightenment” by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ We read in the “Basket of Conduct” (The Perfection of Equanimity, III, 15, the Great Astounding Conduct) that the Bodhisatta developed the perfection of equanimity to the highest degree (as an ultimate perfection, paramattha paaramii), during the life he was the wise Lomahamsa. The Commentary states: ---------- “The Great Being was born at that time into a wealthy family, and he completed his education, mastering all branches of knowledge under the tutorship of the teacher Disaapaamukha. When his parents had died he became disenchanted with worldly conditions and he acquired a sense of urgency, although the members of his family implored him while weeping to take care of the family possessions. He had become disenchanted because he contemplated impermanence with wise attention, he reflected on the foulness of his body, and he did not want to give in to the defilements that would cause him to be involved with married life. He thought of abandoning his possessions and becoming a monk, but then he considered that, as a monk, his good qualities in themselves would not be apparent so as to become praiseworthy. That was why the Great Being who was averse from gain and honour did not enter the state of monkhood. He reflected: ‘I should just have sufficient belongings and lead a life of moderation with regard to gain, loss and the other worldly conditions.’ ” ---------- Someone who becomes a monk receives praise because of the excellence of monkhood. However, the Great Being rejected the gain and honour which one would receive as a monk. He thought that even though he would not be a monk, he would conduct himself in a praiseworthy way. [1] He would practise fewness of wishes and not have anything in excess. This is a way of thinking which is firmly established in kusala. The state of monkhood is different from the state of the layman. The monk is bound to receive more favours and honour than a layman, because of the excellence of monkhood. The Bodhisatta rejected gain and honour and he did not cling to them. He thought that he would lead a life as a layman without a great deal of gain and honour. Note [1] Because of the highest degree of equanimity he had developed. ------------------------------ To be continued. Metta, Han #76785 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (16) ... Deva ... indriyabala Dear Nina (Jon, Sarah, Scott, Han), - > N: Yea, yea. May I butt in? I think Kh Sujin's Survey gives some >food for thought. T: I am very pleased that you kindly butted in to give me a valuable present -- Khun Sujin's article on citta. I very much apppreciate her clever use of the word "world" to signify each person's unique experience in a fleeting moment. I am glad that she also talks about the continuity of the fleeting-moment realities; the continuity defines the real world for each person, although it is only real in a given moment. > K.H. : The world of each person is ruled by his citta. ... in reality, each person is all the time his own world. ... ... > It seems that we are all living together in the same world. However, in reality all the different rúpas (material phenomena) which appear through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, all those different phenomena could not appear and be of such importance, if there were no citta, the element which experiences them. Since citta experiences the objects which appear through the sense-doors and through the mind-door, the world of each person is ruled by his citta. T: I do not see a major contradiction with my view on the coexistence of the real world and the ultimate world of dhammas. However, I only disagee when she says that "It seems that we are all living together in the same world". It is the same world, although we individually experience it differently. Jon may experience the jumbo jet that took him home differently than another passenger on the same airplane. But no-one can deny that the jumbo jet is a reality that flew Jon and other passengers safely back home. .............. > K. S. : When we think that there is the world, beings, people or different things, we should know that this is only a moment of citta which thinks about what appears to seeing, about visible object. Seeing occurs at a moment different from thinking about what appears. For everyone there is citta which arises just for a moment and is then succeeded by the next one, and this happens continuously. Thus, it seems that there is the whole wide world with many different people and things, but we should have right understanding of what the world is. We should know that realities appear one at a time, and that they appear only for one moment of citta. >Since cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another very rapidly, it seems that there is the world which does not disintegrate, the world which lasts, with beings, people and many different things. In reality the world lasts just for one moment, namely, when citta arises and cognizes an object just for that moment; and then the world falls away together with the citta. .......... T: There she talks about "the world" that is impermanent, and she talks about "beings". Yet, she does not say that the world of beings does not exist. Well, if you or Sarah or Scott or Jon skilfully explain like Khun Sujin, I would not have to disagree with y'all so often. ;-)) Tep === #76786 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. truth_aerator Hello Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: S: Colour or visible object is dependent on conditions as are all sankhara > dhammas. They have their own characteristics. The characteristic of > visible object is different from sound. The characteristic of visible > object is also different from seeing consciousness. > .... > > However it does NOT mean that color does not exist. Please don't > > misread what was said. Because we can (see,hear,smell,taste,touch, > > think) object it means that it doesn't have its own self nature. > .... > S: It has a sabhava which is different from any other dhamma. This is why we read about khandhas too, because each dhamma has a particular sabhava, a particular characteristic, yet all rupas have the rupa characteristic in common, they are rupa khandha. > ..... Regarding Svabhava 'All phenomena are rooted in desire.1 (sabbe dhamma) "'All phenomena come into play through attention. "'All phenomena have contact as their origination. "'All phenomena have feeling as their meeting place. "'All phenomena have concentration as their presiding state. "'All phenomena have mindfulness as their governing principle. "'All phenomena have discernment as their surpassing state. "'All phenomena have release as their heartwood. "'All phenomena gain their footing in the deathless. "'All phenomena have Unbinding as their final end.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.058.than.html "Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is discernible. "These are three fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. "Now these three are unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated. Which three? No arising is discernible, no passing away is discernible, no alteration while staying is discernible. "These are three unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.047.than.html Obviously nothing, no sphere, no khanda, no ayatana are unfabricated. Which is basically saying that nothing in Samsara has a self nature. This shows that there are NO static entities that have self existence. Even "Arising" is not unfabricated as the moment of arising should have its own arising, duration and cessation (same with duration and cessation). Logically the only indivisible number is 0. But no amount of zeros will equal more than a zero. Any number more than 0 IS further divisible, and thus has no indivisible absolute self nature. "Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.095.than.html "Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?" "Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye- consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. "The ear is empty... "The nose is empty... "The tongue is empty... "The body is empty... "The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.085.than.html "Excerpts from the Treatise on Emptiness from Khudakka Nikaya What is emptiness in [relation to] change? [Because it is] produced, form is empty of own-nature (sabhava); ceased, form is changed and empty. [Because they are] produced, feelings are empty of own-nature; ceased, feelings are changed and empty. [Because they are] produced, perceptions are empty of own-nature; ceased, perceptions are changed and empty. [Because they are] produced, fabrications are empty of own-nature; ceased, fabrications are changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, consciousness is empty of own-nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, the eye is empty ..., the ear is empty ..., the nose is empty ..., the tongue is empty ..., the body is empty of own-nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, visible form is empty ..., sound is empty ..., odor is empty ..., flavor is empty ..., tactile sensation is empty of own-nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, visual consciousness is empty ..., auditory consciousness is empty ..., olfactory consciousness is empty ..., gustatory consciousness is empty ..., tactile consciousness is empty ..., mental consciousness is empty of own-nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, eye-contact is empty ..., ear-contact is empty ..., nose-contact is empty ..., tongue-contact is empty ..., body-contact is empty ..., mind-contact is empty of own-nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because they are] produced, feelings produced from eye-contact are empty ..., feelings produced from ear-contact are empty ..., feelings produced from nose-contact are empty ..., feelings produced from tongue-contact are empty ..., feelings produced from body-contact are empty ..., feelings produced from mind-contact are empty of own- nature; ceased, they are changed and empty. [Because they are] produced, perceptions of visible form are empty ..., perceptions of sound are empty ..., perceptions of odor are empty ..., perceptions of flavor are empty ..., perceptions of tactile sensation are empty ..., perceptions of mental phenomena [i.e. feeling, perception, and fabrications] are empty of own-nature; ceased, they are changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, volitional intention pertaining to visible form is empty ..., volitional intention pertaining to sound is empty ..., volitional intention pertaining to odor is empty ..., volitional intention pertaining to flavor is empty ..., volitional intention pertaining to tactile sensation is empty ..., volitional intention pertaining to mental phenomena [i.e. feeling, perception, and fabrications] is empty of own-nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, craving [and aversion] for visible form is empty ..., craving [and aversion] for sound is empty ..., craving [and aversion] for odor is empty ..., craving [and aversion] for flavor is empty ..., craving [and aversion] for tactile sensation is empty ..., craving [and aversion] for mental phenomena [i.e. feeling, perception, and fabrications] is empty of own-nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, directed thought pertaining to visible form is empty ..., directed thought pertaining to sound is empty ..., directed thought pertaining to odor is empty ..., directed thought pertaining to flavor is empty ..., directed thought pertaining to tactile sensation is empty ..., directed thought pertaining to mental phenomena [i.e. feeling, perception, and fabrications] is empty of own -nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, discursive thinking pertaining to visible form is empty ..., discursive thinking pertaining to sound is empty ..., discursive thinking pertaining to odor is empty ..., discursive thinking pertaining to flavor is empty ..., discursive thinking pertaining to tactile sensation is empty ..., discursive thinking pertaining to mental phenomena [i.e. feeling, perception, and fabrications] is empty of own-nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, solid form (earth) is empty ..., liquid form (water) is empty ..., gaseous form (air/wind) is empty ..., temperature (fire) is empty of own-nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, the eye sensory sphere is empty ..., the visible form sensory sphere is empty ..., the ear sensory sphere is empty ..., the sound sensory sphere is empty ..., the nose sensory sphere is empty ..., the odor sensory sphere is empty ..., the tongue sensory sphere is empty ..., the flavor sensory sphere is empty ..., the body sensory sphere is empty ..., the tactile sensation sensory sphere is empty ..., the mind sensory sphere is empty ..., the mental phenomena sensory sphere is empty of own- nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, the eye element is empty ..., the visible form element is empty ..., the visual consciousness element is empty ..., the ear element is empty ..., the sound element is empty ..., the auditory consciousness element is empty ..., the nose element is empty ..., the odor element is empty ..., the olfactory consciousness element is empty ..., the tongue element is empty ..., the flavor element is empty ..., the gustatory consciousness element is empty ..., the body element is empty ..., the tactile sensation element is empty ..., the tactile consciousness element is empty ..., the mind element is empty ..., the mental phenomena element is empty ..., the mental consciousness element is empty of own-nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, the sensual desire element is empty ..., the form element is empty ..., the formless element is empty of own- nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. [Because it is] produced, ignorance is empty ..., fabrications are empty ..., consciousness is empty ..., name and form are empty ..., the sixfold sensory spheres are empty ..., contact is empty ..., feeling is empty ..., craving is empty ..., grasping is empty ..., becoming is empty of own-nature; ceased, it is changed and empty. What is supreme emptiness? This Dhamma is supreme, this Dhamma is superior, this Dhamma is excellent: the calming of all fabrications, the relinquishing of all substrata of becoming, the exhaustion of craving, the fading away of greed, cessation, Nibbana. This is supreme emptiness. " ----------------------------------------- In DN#15 it says that Nama-Rupa is dependant on Vinnana and Vinnana is dependent on Nama-Rupa. How can Vinnana have its own self nature? How can Nama-rupa have its own self nature? Even though Eye and lets say smell consiousness appear different, they appear in the MIND, dependent ON the mind, dependent on conditions. It is mind that sorts out the sense data, without the mind 5 senses would not function. Nama-Rupa-Vinnana are interdependant and empty (or better to say Relative and interconnected). What is the use in making fixed and static doctrine about the ultimates? No wonder different people are making different full blown speculations on ontology. "Sabbe Dhamma anatta" Lots of metta, Alex Again, please forgive for long quotations and post. #76787 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti sarahprocter... Dear Tep & Han, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > T: With all due respect, no, Sarah, it does not help. ;-)) > I am explaining below. > > Reason 1. The article/book you used as a reference includes khandha, > aayatana, and dhaatu in the "concepts" group. But these dhammas are > known to the DSG Abhidhammikas as ultimate realities. Is the author > wrong, or have you all been wrong for a long time? I hope the former > is the case. .... S: As made clear (I thought), these are 'designations' or 'indications' about the real or 'existing'. Khandhas, ayatanas and dhaatu are realities, but we use concepts to talk about them. Visible object is an ultimate reality, but the words we use to describe it now are concepts used for convenience and mutual understanding. So we're all correct! ... > T: Reason 2. Under the heading "Grouping of Human Types by One" the > author lists five types of human (please note the word "human") as > follows. > > "In what ways is there a designation of human types? > 1- Grouping of Human Types by One. > > "(1) One who is emancipated in season (samayavimutto) > (2) One who is emancipated out of season (asamayavimutto) > (3) One of perturbable nature.(kuppadhammo) > (4) One of imperturbably nature.(akuppadhammo) > (5) One liable to fall away (gotrabhuu)..... > > T: It is not amibiguous at all that human is not the same as > consciousness (citta). But you went on to change "human" into citta > as follows. Amazing ! ..... S: Yes, 'human' and citta are not the same. 'Citta' is a concept about the real, while 'human' is a concept about the unreal. However, we know that when the Buddha and his disciples talk in terms of people and humans, they are using these concepts for convenience. In fact there are only cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana. Even an arahant doesn't go around saying 'citta said this' or 'citta did that'. Let me repeat the earlier quote I gave: >S:In the first chapter in the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy - the Abhidhamma text, (PTS) and its commentary (the Debates Commentary) there is a lot of discussion about commonly used terms. The following quote from the Commentary (On the Person, p. 41) <....>: ***** QUOTE “ “Without self” means deprived of self, of soul, of person. The sense is: even in one and the same quality, there is no ‘person’. Thus the meaning should be understood as said in all the Suttas and Commentaries. In this connection, however, we shall say merely so far as it was uttered. ".....Even in such expressions as ‘there is the person who works for his own good’(DN iii, 232), (MNi, 341, 411), (AN ii, 95) and so on, there is no such person as bodily and mental aggregates, known in their specific and general senses. Given bodily and mental aggregates, it is customary to say such and such a name, a family. Thus, by this popular turn of speech, convention, expression, is meant: “there is the person.” This is the sense here. "Hereon it was also said by the Exalted One: “These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, terms of speech, designations in common use in the world.” (Dialogues, i 263). What is meant here is: even without reference to bodily and mental aggregates the term ‘person’ is used to denote a popular convention in both its specific and its general sense. "The Buddhas have two kinds of discourse, the popular and the philosophical. Those relating to a being, a person, a deva, a brahma and so forth, are popular discourses, while those relating to impermanence, ill, soul-less, the aggregates, the elements, the senses, the application of mindfulness, the intent contemplation, and so forth, are discourses on highest meaning.< .... > > S: So, in reality, are these people or cittas? > > I'd suggest (with the help of the notes)these refer to: > (1) The path cittas of the sotapanna, sakadagami and anagami, i.e to > sotapatti-magga citta and so on. > (2) The path cittas of the sukkhavipassaka-khii.naasavas (Arahants > who do not practise Jhaana - comy) > (3) The cittas of the putthujana,sotapanna and sakadagami having > attained the 8 samaapattis (absorptions/jhanas) > (4) The cittas of the anagami or arahant having attained the 8 > samaapatis. > (5) The citta which is succeeded by the ariyan magga citta, referring > here, 'According to the Commentary....to a person who has reached the > family, circle, or designation of Ariyas....'. Again, this is > referring in an absolute sense to a series of cittas only. > > In other words, all sammuti sacca using various pa~n~natti, but > always to designate and point again to absolute realities. > ......... > > T: Nice try, Sarah. But your "suggestion" fails to convince me, > because it does not make sense. .... S: Take (5)above "One liable to fall away (gotrabhuu)". Gotrabhuu refers to a single citta (chane-of-lineage citta) which is succeeded by the single citta of magga citta (path-consciousness). At the moment that such a single citta arises, where is the human being or person? How is the human being experienced? Likewise, now, there is a single citta arising, followed by another and antother. At the moment of seeing consciousness which experiences visible object, where is the human being? How is human being experienced? Does the Buddha not just use 'person' as a matter of convenience to point to a particular set or accumulation of particular cittas, cetasikas and rupas? Metta, Sarah =========== #76788 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti sarahprocter... Dear Han & Tep, Thanks again for your helpful further feedback and comments. It's always useful to consider further. --- han tun wrote: > (1) One Teacher teaches very little; not dealing with > the subject matter; and the audience does not > understand whether what he teaches is in line with > subject matter or not. > > (2) One Teacher teaches very little; dealing with the > subject matter; and the audience understands whether > what he teaches is in line with subject matter or not. > > > (3) One Teacher teaches quite a lot; not dealing with > the subject matter; and the audience does not > understand whether what he teaches is in line with > subject matter or not. > > (4) One Teacher teaches quite a lot; dealing with the > subject matter; and the audience understands whether > what he teaches is in line with subject matter or not. > > > The translations are my translations. In this example, > there are definitely “persons”, the teachers and the > audience. How will you explain this? ..... S: Same answers as before:-) We see how there are various tendencies, various moments of kusala and akusala even now. We have to use conventional words and names like Han, Tep and Sarah, or refer to this or that person such as the teacher or student. However, in the absolute sense there are only absolute realities. So we are reading about Abhidhamma by way of sutta methodology in the text. If we just talk about 8 types of lobha-mula-citta, about kusala and akusala, without any examples, it seems removed from daily-life and we cannot appreciate the different inclinations or accumulations of people. While there are only 8 types of lobha when we group the cittas, in fact the variety is infinite by way of what we see in daily life and by way of sutta methodology. It can actually help us to understand the Abhidhamma better. When we read about different kinds of teachers or students, in fact there could be enlightenment now if there were enough understanding from the development of satipatthana and if the depth of the Buddha's teachings were really understood and penetrated. However, just reading a few (or a lot) of suttas is not enough for this. We'll be lost again and again without an understanding of the Abhidhamma, without an understanding of absolute realities which are anatta. These suttas will always be read with an idea of self or people and with an idea of rules to 'Do this!' and 'Do that!'. However, gradually, by understanding more about absolute realities, pa~n~naa can begin to see that the development of kusala is performed by cittas and that the abstention from akusala is peformed by cittas which abstain, not a person. For me, this is the opening of the door to receive the thousand goods or the wonderful analogy you referred to of having a very, very large bucket ready to collect the rain. It has nothing to do with how much or little of a book-worm one is, nothing to do with any understanding of Pali, but all to do with the development of understanding of absolute realities as 'The All'. Metta, Sarah ======== #76789 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:05 am Subject: Re: Response to Phil - Part 3 kenhowardau Hi Sukin, ----------------- <. . .> S: > If I had more energy, you would see me make comments everywhere. But lucky for everyone else, I'm very lazy. :-) ------------------ Join the club! But, as you go on to say, who can tell when it's laziness and when it's something else? There are only dhammas, and the important thing is to know the dhammas that are arising now. ---------------------------- > > Ken: That's what reminded me of America's self-help industry. It is driven by lobha for easy, palatable answers - no matter how unbelievable those answers may be. > Sukin: And as I indicated above, I don't have to look too far to see delusion take effect. ------------------------------ I hope I was thinking that way too at the time. But, more likely, I was thinking of the self-help gurus and their helpless students as if they were the real problem. I was probably forgetting about the dhammas that were busily coming and going at the time. Such is life! :-) -------------------------------------------- S: > In fact even while verbalizing Abhidhamma concepts, how many actual moments of wise reflection are there? --------------------------------------------- Ah! You have caught me out again! :-) ----------------------- <. . .> > > Ken: Tune in to Dr Phil or Oprah and see what I mean. > Sukin: I don't like watching these kinds of shows. ----------------------- I can't bear to watch them. But I sometimes catch snippets while changing channels, and I hear about them from people like Steve Salerno. --------------------------------- S: > And talking about this, last night I saw a really neat Australian production, "Ten Canoes", have you seen it? ---------------------------------- No, but I have been meaning to do so. I'll get the DVD next week. Thanks for all your reminders. :-) Ken H #76790 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Views, Ontology, Philosophy of Buddha as it appears to me. dcwijeratna Dear Alex; Thank you for your prompt response. In your e-m you had the following lines. >>Alex: "Dana is very good and certainly has time and place. However if one is simply doing dana, than it is not ideal. Eventually Dana may be "Metta meditation", and eventually it may be "Dhamma teaching. The gift of Dhamma excells all other gifts - Dhamapada (I think)." -------------------- I wish to make a few observations on that: DC: From time immemorial, dana was the biggest thing in Sri Lanka. Daana paaramitaa was the first paaramitaa in the list of 10 paaramitaas. Jaatakas like Wessantara, sivi, makhaadeva all are related to daana. I should state before I proceed that all my discussions are on the basis of the Suttas. And emphatically state that they have nothing to do with the Abhidhamma Pi.taka of any school. However, I wish to point out that daana, as it appears to my mind, is a central concept in the suttas. Daana is simply the act of giving. The mental characteristic that gives rise to daana is caaga. Some meanings of this word are: gift; abandoning; giving up; generosity. What ever the shade of meaning that you give to the word, caaga, the core or the central idea behind it is that you reliniquish your attachment or (ta.nhaa) to that object--animate or inanimate. You may give because of mettaa, karuna, or even muditaa or upekkhaa or any mix of them. At the worldly level (lokiiya) these are the motivations plus of course giving up greed and attachment(alobha). But the level of ariyas (or the lokottara level) it is pure giving up or abandoment. You may recollect the defintion of the Nirodaha sacca: caago, pa.tinissaggo, mutti, anaalayo. (dhammacakka) Relate this to atthi dinnam, atthi yita.m in the worldly sammaa di.tthi or "dukkha nirodhe ~naan.m" of the ariyan sammaa di.t.thi, and nekkhamma sankappa in sammaa san.kappa (Right thoughts). When you give up your attachment of to "yourself" the you get disgusted with it an give up the attachment. The act of giving up that is the highest form of daana. It is not giving up a conepts. It is a real transformation of the being. Please see anattalakkhana sutta. This is what make and arahant. So as I see, Dana is the most central concept for the lay Buddhist and to the Ariyan. One word about the Dhammapada verse. There dhamma-daana is not teaching-and learning but it referes to actually getting somebody established in Dhamma. I mention this because I spent almost one hour explaining this difference at the temple. I hope I am not troubling you. With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #76791 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 moellerdieter Dear DC, you wrote : What is the difference between the mundane path and the supramundane path. I thought that there was only one path- the Noble Eightfold Path? please compare with my message to Howard and Tep and Nyanatiloka's definition of 'Magga'. There is only one path , but the difference is due to the individual state of mind development ,i.e. with and without fermentation. MN 117 provides the details.. with Metta Dieter #76792 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti hantun1 Dear Sarah (and Tep), I knew that Sarah would have all the appropriate answers to any question at all times :>). I repeat: It is one of the qualities in Sarah that I admire! (Sincerely!!) So, in terms of realities there are only citta, cetasika and ruupa, or naama and ruupa. Everything else is not reality. Even with naama and ruupa, they are realities only at the moment of their arising. Fine! Nina also said that: (1) The five khandhas *are* citta, cetasika and ruupa. They are “present” only at the moment of their arising. (2) aayatana, (3) dhaatu are naamas and ruupas. (5) indriya, they are naama and ruupa and present when they arise So, even the five khandhas, aayatanas, dhaatus, and indriyas are naama and ruupa and they are present only at the moment of their arising. Now, it makes things easier for me to learn Abhidhamma. Just learn naama and ruupa at the moment of their arising, and forget everything else! I will use a small cup to collect the rain water of Abhidhamma, so that it is easier for me to carry about. BTW: In view of the above, I think it will be better if we take out Puggala pa~n~natti from Abhidhamma Pitaka and put it in Suttanta Pitaka, because it is very similar to DN 33 and DN 34, and there is no place in Abhidhamma Pitaka for something which is not reality in the ultimate sense. For this comment also, I am sure, Sarah will have the appropriate remark! :>) Respectfully, Han #76793 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. sarahprocter... Dear DC, --- DC Wijeratna wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > I have a little comment regarding the following: > >S: > The point is, I believe, that the path is about a development of > > understanding of 'what is', rather than 'what we'd like it to be'. > > DC: We think that the path is about dukkha and its cessation. That is > why we thought that it is called the -- path for the cessation of the > dukkha (dukkha-nirodha-gaaminii-pa.tipadaa). .... S: Yes, but what is this path which leads to the cessation of dukkha? What are the factors of the path? What is the first factor in particular? What is it that right understanding (samma di.t.thi)understands in order for the fully developed path factors to occur, leading to the cessation of dukkha? What is dukkha at this moment? Metta, Sarah =========== #76794 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] New to the Buddhist community. sarahprocter... Hi Evie, --- Evie wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > I know that you asked a few questions and I will answer them for > you. I know that a few people are probably wondering themselves. ... S: Many thanks for kindly taking the time and trouble to give us such a thorough and interesting introduction. > You see, I was a born and raised Protestant Christian. And once I was > a teenager and going through my confirmation and we were learning > about different types of religion, I always wondered why we didn't > learn about things like Buddhism. ... S: I could have written this myself! Later, when I started picking up books on different religions, it was always the chapters on Buddhism which caught my interest, especially with the emphasis on 'check it out for yourself', rather than just 'believe!'. I'm very sorry to hear about your injury and all the surgeries you've had to endure. We never know what will lead to what, however. Perhaps it has been a condition for you to reflect more deeply on the Buddhist teachings. Thanks for also telling us that you live in Missouri. Many friends here live in different parts of the States. Others, of cours, live all over the world. Jon and I live in Hong Kong. .... > What do I think about the teaching of 'Non-self' or anatta??? > > I have to be honest with you when I say, it has only really been this > last month that I began to start reading about how Buddhism came to be > and what Buddhism is about. Because I am a fast, quick learner with > things that I want to learn about I know so much already, but not so > much on the teachings of 'Non-self'. > > I have read I am sure in my books about the teachings, and have looked > up information that talks about it and briefly read the post that was > writing up about it here. .... S: Take your time. It really takes a while to assimilate new teachings and ways of looking at the world. If you go to the files section of DSG and look in 'Useful Posts', try scrolling down to 'Abhidhamma-beginners' and 'New to the Dhamma and New to the List'. Click on the messages in these sections and you may find them helpful. Also, if you have any comments on the series James is posting on 'Buddhism - an Introduction', that would be helpful. Ask any questions on anything you read too! .... > I understand which looks like the basic concept but would love to > learn more about everything. So I will take some time tonight to read > more about the teachings and get back to the group on what my thoughts > are. ... S: Please do. Let us know what you are reading and what your thoughts are. I enjoy your sharings:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #76795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti nilovg Dear Han and Tep, Han, you always write so kindly, but do not hesitate to say so when you have a different opinion. A different opinion is not unkind!! Tep, I admire you so much. You said that you consider speech beforehand. You changed so much since the time you were on the list before. It is the Dhamma that did it, no self. Op 27-sep-2007, om 10:46 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Now, it makes things easier for me to learn > Abhidhamma. Just learn naama and ruupa at the moment > of their arising, and forget everything else! I will > use a small cup to collect the rain water of > Abhidhamma, so that it is easier for me to carry > about. > > BTW: In view of the above, I think it will be better > if we take out Puggala pa~n~natti from Abhidhamma > Pitaka and put it in Suttanta Pitaka, because it is > very similar to DN 33 and DN 34, and there is no place > in Abhidhamma Pitaka for something which is not > reality in the ultimate sense. For this comment also, > I am sure, Sarah will have the appropriate remark! :>) ---------- N: to begin with, reading your posts, the difficulty may be in the word pa~n~natti which you immediately associate with a concept that is not real in the ultimate sense. But here, as seen from the quotes given by Sarah, it means in particular: explanation, exposition. There are just six classes of exposition, pa~n~natti, given here, that is all. As to the Suttanta method and Abhidhamma method, we find both methods used also in the Abhidhamma books apart from the Puggala Pa~n~natti, such as the Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, for example. This book gives explanations and mentions: according to the Suttanta method, and: according to the Abhidhamma method. This does not need to cause any problem. It is most helpful that the Buddha spoke in vohaara about the different inclinations of individuals so that we can be reminded of our unwholesome inclinations. He spoke about those who develop dry insight and could attain enlightenment, without developing jhanas. It all depends on the inclinations of the different individuals. This shows us how different humans are. We can have more understanding of people's inclinations. Thus, indeed he spoke about cittas and cetasikas and tendencies accumulated in the citta, and these are in different individuals. We are not the same, but altogether different and that is because of different conditions. As Sarah said: He gave us a deep teaching but helped us to understand it by using terms like human types. We all think of human types in daily life. Now we can have more understanding of these types and the conditions for their differences. As we also read: for some the Buddha explained by way only of ultimate truth, for some he used conventional truth in order to clarify ultimate truth. ---------- Nina. #76796 From: han tun Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Puggala pa~n~natti hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah), When I write to Sarah, I write more loosely than when I write to you, because I and Sarah and Jon have closer relationship and she knows that I am a born-rebel. When someone says something all the time, I want to speak the opposite of it. So, please be assured that I respect your views and I take your advice seriously. As for Sarah, I know that she will forgive me for whatever I write! Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han and Tep, > Han, you always write so kindly, but do not hesitate > to say so when > you have a different opinion. A different opinion is > not unkind!! #76797 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Controversy? sarahprocter... Hi Colette, --- colette wrote: > Since the vast majority of Theravadan followers here are extremely > against any and all actions since actions create karma and well, the > status quo is such an addictive drug. <....> .... S: I don't know where you get the idea of 'the vast majority of Theravadan followers here are extremely against any and all actions'. What we refer to as 'actions' in daily language are determined by many, many different intentions. Some of these intentions (or kammas) are 'good' (kusala) and some are 'bad' (akusala). To give a very simple example, when we help someone with kindness, the action is (mostly) good, brought about by good intentions. When we grab something unkindly, the action is bad, brought about by bad intentions. So we have to find out for ourselves when our actions are motivated by good kamma and when by bad kamma. We can't make a blanket comment about the actions of others, as in the examples you gave. Metta, Sarah ======== #76798 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:11 am Subject: Citta scottduncan2 Dear Tep, Nina, Anyone Else Who Minds, T: "...I happily concur with you that we move on to citta." Scott: Excellent, thanks. To begin, Dhammasa"nganii, pp. 84-45: "By 'consciousness' (citta) is meant that which thinks of its object, is aware variously. Or, inasmuch as this word 'consciousness' is common to all states or classes of consciousness, that which is known as worldly, moral, immoral, or the great inoperative, is termed 'consciousness', because it arranges itself in a series (cintoti, or, its own series or continuity) by way of apperception in a process of thought. And the resultant is also termed 'consciousness' because it is accumulated (cito) by kamma and the corruptions. "Moreover, all (four classes) are termed 'consciousness' because they are variegated (citra) according to circumstance. The meaning of consciousness may also be understood from its capacity of producing a variety of effects. "Herein consciousness with lust is one thing, that with hate is another, that with delusion is another, that experienced in the universe of sense is another, and those expererienced in the universe of attenuated matter, etc., are others. Different is consciousness with a visible object, with an auditory object, etc.; and in that with visible object, varied is consciousness of a blue-green object, of a yellow object, etc. And the same is the case with the consciousness of auditory objects. "And of all this consciousness one class is low, another is medium, and another is exalted. Among the low class again consciousness is different when dominated by desire-to-do, or when dominated by energy, or by investigation. Therefore the variegated nature of consciousness should be understood by way of these characteristics of association, locality, object, the degrees of comparison and dominance." Scott: I starter with this because it nicely addresses "the view that opposes the purist stance is a practical view of people in the 'conventional' world," (Tep, Message #76764) When citta is examined, as in the above, the meaning invalidates the false distinction between 'purist' and 'conventional' stance. Whether 'low', 'medium' or 'exalted' citta is still citta. Citta underlies the process by which thoughts of 'conventional world' or 'purist stance' are formed and without citta, functioning as described above, there would be none of these thoughts. Sincerely, Scott. #76799 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:09 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (67) nichiconn Dear Friends, Rohiniitheriigaathaava.n.nanaa, part 8: verse: 274. "Cirassa.m vata ma.m taata, sama.naana.m paripucchasi; tesa.m te kittayissaami, pa~n~naasiilaparakkama.m. 274. Truly for a long time you have been questioning me about ascetics, father. I shall praise their wisdom, virtuous conduct, and effort to you. cy: Ta.m sutvaa rohinii "laddho daani me okaaso ayyaana.m gu.ne kathetun"ti tu.t.thamaanasaa bhikkhuuna.m gu.ne kittetukaamaa pa.thama.m taava tesa.m kittane somanassa.m pavedentii "ciirassa.m vata ma.m, taataa"ti gaathamaaha. Tattha cirassa.m vataati cirena vata. Taataati pitara.m aalapati. Sama.naananti sama.ne sama.naana.m vaa mayha.m piyaayitabba.m paripucchasi. Tesanti sama.naana.m. Pa~n~naasiilaparakkamanti pa~n~na~nca siila~nca ussaaha~nca. Kittayissaamiiti kathayissaami. Pruitt: 274. Hearing this, Rohinii thought to herself, "I have now obtained an opportunity to speak about the good qualities of the noble ones." Pleased and wanting to praise the good qualities of the bhikkhus, she first made known her joy by praising them and spoke the verse beginning Truly for a long time [you have been questioning] me [about ascetics], father. There, truly for a long time (cirrassa.m) means truly for a long time (cirena). Father means: she is speking to her father. About ascetics (sama.naana.m) means: about ascetics (sama.ne). Or, you ask me about what is held dear by ascetics. Their means: the ascetics'. Wisdom, virtuous conduct, and effort (pa~n~naa-siila-parakkama.m) means: wisdom (pa~n~na~n ca) and virtuous conduct (siila~n ca) and energy (ussaaha~n ca). I shall praise means: I shall explain. verse: 275. "Kammakaamaa analasaa, kammase.t.thassa kaarakaa; raaga.m dosa.m pajahanti, tena me sama.naa piyaa. 275. They are dutiful, not lazy, doers of the best of actions. They abandon desire and hatred. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. cy: Pa.tijaanetvaa te kittentii "akammakaamaa alasaa"ti tena vutta.m dosa.m taava nibbe.thetvaa tappa.tipakkhabhuuta.m gu.na.m dassetu.m "kammakaamaa"ti-aadimaaha. Tattha kammakaamaati vattapa.tivattaadibheda.m kamma.m sama.nakicca.m paripuura.navasena kaamenti icchantiiti kammakaamaa. Tattha yuttappayuttaa hutvaa u.t.thaaya samu.t.thaaya vaayamanato na alasaati analasaa. Ta.m pana kamma.m se.t.tha.m uttama.m nibbaanaavahameva karontiiti kammase.t.thassa kaarakaa. Karontaa pana ta.m pa.tipattiyaa anavajjabhaavato raaga.m dosa.m pajahanti, yathaa raagadosaa pahiiyanti, eva.m sama.naa kamma.m karonti. Tena me sama.naa piyaati tena yathaavuttena sammaapa.tipajjanena mayha.m sama.naa piyaayitabbaati attho. 275. Having promised to praise them, she then refutes the fault he spoke of, saying "Not dutiful, lazy". In order to show their good quality that was the opposite of that, she said, "Dutiful," etc. There, they are dutiful (kamma-kaamaa) means: wanting (kaamenti), wishing [to do] the work (kamma.m) consisting of various duties, etc, in order to fulfil the duty of an ascetic, thus they are dutiful. There, being intent, because they make effort, because they make effort together, because they strive, they are not lazy (na alasaa), thus they are not lazy (analasaa). Moreover, they only do (karontii) the highest, best (se.t.tha.m) action (kamma.m) which brings quenching, thus they are doers of the best of actions (kamma-se.t.thassa kaarakaa). And doing that, through their attainment, through their faultless state, they abandon desire (raaga.m) and hatred (dosa.m). Just as desire and hatred (raaga-dosaa) are abandoned, so do these ascetics perform their work. Therefore, ascetics are dear (piyaa) to me means: therefore, ascetics are held dear (piyaayitabbaa) by me because of thier right procedure in the way I have said. That is the meaning. verse: 276. "Tii.ni paapassa muulaani, dhunanti sucikaarino; sabba.m paapa.m pahiinesa.m, tena me sama.naa piyaa. 276. They shake off the three roots of evil, doing pure actions. All their evil is eliminated. Therefore, ascetics are dear to me. txt: Tii.ni paapassa muulaaniiti lobhadosamohasa"nkhaataani akusalassa tii.ni muulaani. Dhunantiiti nigghaatenti, pajahantiiti attho. Sucikaarinoti anavajjakammakaarino. Sabba.m paapa.m pahiinesanti aggamaggaadhigamena esa.m sabbampi paapa.m pahiina.m. 276. The three roots of evil means: the three roots that are unwholesome, called greed, hatred and delusion. They shake off (dhunanti) means: they force out, they abandon. That is the meaning. Doing pure actions (suci-kaarino) means: doing actions that are without fault (anavajja-kamma-kaarino). All their evil is eliminated (pahiin' esa.m) means: all their evil indeed is eliminated (pahiina.m) through attaining the highest path, etc. === to be continued, connie