#78600 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:50 am Subject: Abhidhamma Q. to Elaine. nilovg Dear Elaine, I like your story about grandma and cuti-citta. ------ Elaine: A few days before, I had read a bit of Abhidhamma book and I confidently replied to her, ‘Oh, Buddhists are not afraid of death!’ :D She was of course, surprised, and she asked, ‘Oh, why is that so?’ I told her that Buddhists believe, we sort-of-like ‘live and die’ every moment in our lives. The moment that has passed is already gone, as if we have already died. Buddhists also believe in rebirth and we always have a chance to live again (not that birth is a good thing, but at least there is no eternal hell). Then I went on to tell her about how Cuti-citta (death-consciousness) becomes Patisandhi-citta (rebirth-consciousness) and etc. etc. I made it sound ‘technical’ so death would not sound too scary for her ((rolleyes)). I don’t understand all these cittas myself, but I told her all the things that I’ve read. She didn’t understand these cittas either but at least she got the Buddhist perspective of it. :-)) So, that day I did find some usefulness of the Abhidhamma. I don’t know if my MIL believes in me because later on she told me about St. Peter and some kind of gate. Oh well~ So, yes I think Abhidhmma is knowledge is good. It is good for explanation purposes. --------------- N: I think more than that. It helps us to understand ourselves, our life. When you explained about living and dying at every moment it was correct. Each moment, like seeing now passes and is succeeded by another moment. Living and dying now. And this is not in our hands. This helps you to understand more the truth of anattaa. When in India, I heard a tape in the bus about death. Kh Sujin said that it is very peaceful. It is just like going to sleep. When in deep sleep we do not know who we are or where we are. The dying-citta is succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of the next life and then there is no longer the same person. It is condiitoned by this life now but no longer the same. ---------- Nina: I have another question if you like to answer this: when we like something and are attached to it, we may sometimes have happy feeling. Sometimes it may happen that we like something but are not carried away and do not have happy feeling. We may like a comfortable chair, but we like it mildly, with indifferent feeling. Do you notice a difference? Elaine: Yes, I notice the difference. Is it because of the conditions of: contact (phassa) -> feelings vedana (greed tanha) -> clinging (upadana)? Or is it because perceptions gives rise to different feelings e.g. sukha, dukha, somanassa, domanassa, upekkha? I think these perceptions are due to past Kamma (according to DO). Is that right? -------- N: Akusala citta with attachment is not due to past kamma but due to the latent tendencies (anusayas) of attachment, lying dormant in each citta. We do not have to think now of D.O., but to keep it simple, we think only about intensities of attachment we can notice. I also asked this q.because it is Abhidhamma. Here are akusala cittas with attachment classified as with happy feeling and with unhappy feeling. I asked these questions in order to illustrate that the Abhidhamma is not theoretical. Not everybody needs the study all the books, but we can consider the main principles in our life. It depends on the individual how much he wants to study. It is very helpful to know that not I am seeing, but a citta sees. That citta arises because of conditions and is gone immediately. Feeling is not mine, it is a cetasika arising with citta and nobody can make pleasant feeling into indifferent feeling. Nina. - #78601 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) dcwijeratna Dear Dieter, Tep, Ken O, Ken H You all are having a nice discussion on anatta. The temptation to join is overpowering. So just a few words according to the sutta. 1. Aatman is really a Vedic concept. It is to do with the sense of I we all have. Different people gave different meanings or even different names to this. 2. Now According to DO pancakkhanda is a reality (otherwise DO is false) 3. You can't find anything other than five-khandhas when the 'human being' is analysed in terms of the five khandhas. 4. Ruupa.m bhikkave anattaa.. form (is) no atta. Similarly, for the other khandhas 5. yadnicca.m ta.m dukkha.m -- definition of dukkha (philosophically) 6. The next question the Buddha asks is: Is it proper to consider what is impermanent as I me mine. 7. Well the choice is ours, if we don't mind anicca and dukkha, then atta is. If we wish permanence and satisfaction then atta is: and we continue in sa.msaara. (we go round the mulberry bush) 8. That is the logic. [Ken H, could you please check whether the logic is ok.] No interpretation. 9. But this is not the verification. For that you need to travel the path. No chance of understanding it until you become an arahant. Is there any purpose in discussing such a topic? Mettaa, DC D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78602 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 moellerdieter Hi Ken H (Tep, KO ..), you wrote: ('D (as a friendly feedback not the armwrestling Tep assumes...;-) ) --------------------- :-) This is a touchy subject with me at the moment. In recent weeks DSG has seen quite a lot of communication-spoiling. Scott has called it 'contrariness.' At it's worst it becomes what Phil calls 'dojo busting.' It seems that - for whatever reason - some people want to thwart any meaningful discussion of the Abhidhamma. When I say it is a touchy subject I just mean I am feeling a bit sick of it at the moment. Given time I will be back to arm wrestling with the best of 'em. :-) D: I guess this 'contrariness ' is one of the main reason of the very lively DSG discussion , but understand your point of getting tired ..better to have a break than repeating to argue.. KH: (D How would you explain that Kamma/rebirth and Anatta 'fit well' ?---- As I said on Sunday I don't have much computer time at the moment. (I shouldn't be here now.) And so, maybe I won't give one of my usual, long-winded replies to this question. In any case, it would be good to know first whether *you* saw a difficulty in reconciling anatta with the laws of kamma and vipaka. That might save a lot of unnecessary detail in my answer. D: in simple words I see the kamma /rebirth and anatta relation like when the former ceases the latter takes effect.. so to say both fit like melk and butter .. KH: D: > Sometimes I have the impression that 'Abdhammicas' like students starting to learn arithmatics by calculus.) To me it is the opposite. I see the suttas as the really difficult (calculus) part of the course and the Abhidhamma as the gentle introduction. D: that is an important point of different view ..and certainly a cause of frequent misunderstandings.. is Ven. Nyanaponika' s conclusion in ' Philosophy of Abhidhamma' close to your point ?: "As to the relation of the teachings of the Abhidhamma to those of the Sutta Pitaka, two very apt comparisons given in a conversation by the late Venerable Pelene Vajiranana, Maha-Nayakathera of Vajirarama, Colombo, may be added, in conclusion: The Abhidhamma is like a powerful magnifying-glass, but the understanding gained from the Suttas is the eye itself, which performs the act of seeing. Again, the Abhidhamma is like a medicine container with a label giving an exact analysis of the medicine; but the knowledge gained from the Suttas is the medicine itself which alone is able to cure the illness and its symptoms, namely craving rooted in ignorance, and the suffering caused by it." It seems to me - using above simile- that you would only take the medicine when knowing the exact ingredients before.. Hence, considering the history/legend that the Buddha preached the Abhidhamma to the devas for three months without interruption in order to provide a whole picture and that he advised only his main disciple about details , not to talk about that the Abh . is usually understood as the higher teaching , the gentle introduction seems to me like a pre- study of pharmacology before applying the pills ... KH: I think the ideal introduction to Buddhism is via the Abhidhamma. . D: for me like putting the cart before the horse..and you will maintain that's just the case when the suttas are first ;-) ... an issue of individual preferences ? KH: Otherwise, a lot of religious people commit themselves to Buddhism before knowing what it really teaches When they find out later that [according to the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries] the suttas do not contain the escapist nonsense they assumed them to contain, they refuse to accept it. They can't turn back because they are too committed to calling themselves Buddhists. Some of them are even wearing yellow robes! D: I think very few are really interested in the Abhidhamma or the commentaries , because the suttas include all what is needed.. KH: And so I think a lot of people rewrite, or misrepresent, the original Dhamma in the full knowledge of what they are doing. They don't like the way the Dhamma is found in the ancient texts, and so they convert it into the kind of religious mumbo-jumbo they always wanted it to be. D: And many of those who are interested , incl. myself ,may ponder about the usefulness of deeper studies , missing still the point for practical (path) application...besides some confusing issues..but perhaps we will come to a closer understanding by further discussion KH: I wonder how far Ven Thanissaro will have to go before people get his message. How much more plainly can he put it? He does not believe there is no self. He believes in a self just as much as Christians and materialist-atheists do! He thinks all this talk about no-self is a big mistake that has stemmed from a mere "strategy" the Buddha (supposedly) devised as an aid to meditation. D: though I admit there are some statements which can be misunderstood your conclusion is rather far fetched as already mentioned KH:I agree nibanna is beyond the five khandhas. The way to realise nibbana is to know the five khandhas as they really are. But maybe I am missing your point. (?) D: my point is that equating Khandas with Nibanna by a grouping under the term of Paramattha is confusing .. e.g. when one talks about existence .. ;-) with Metta Dieter #78603 From: mlnease Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:32 pm Subject: Re: sound. [dsg] Realities and Concepts (1) m_nease Hi DC, Thanks again. Very useful stuff at any rate, in my opinion. mike #78604 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:12 pm Subject: Ego Extirpation by The Six Sextets … !!! bhikkhu0 Friends: Real Release is Seeing that: Self is Not … !!! Question: Who are you ? Answer: Something Else ! There is no Self as the agent of any action.. There is no Self as the feeler of any sensation.. There is no Self as the experiencer of any perception.. There is no Self in or outside any bony frame of body.. There is no Self in or outside any shortly sensed feeling.. There is no Self in or outside any experienced perception.. There is no Self in or outside any remembered memory.. There is no Self in or outside any constructed intention.. There is no Self in or outside any momentary consciousness.. There is no Doer experiencing any effect of any action.. There is no Definable Entity transmigrating at Rebirth.. There is no Stable Identity lasting even for a moment.. There is no Owner of anything, whether material or mental.. THERE IS NOT !!! Yet beings, since an endless beginning, passionately maintains this mere IDEA of a stably enduring yet invisible entity, supposed to be the Self, I, Ego, Me, Identity or Personality, with which they fall deeply & dramatically in love… Assuming such an IDEA, constructing such an Imagination, Defining such an Invention is more than FATAL, as it cause the constructer to come back to birth, ageing, decay & death & thereby suffering again & again for aeons … This personality-belief, this Ego-assuming, this Self-imagination, this Me-invention, is the first hindrance, the first fetter, the first mental chain to break, when progressing towards Freedom, towards Peace, towards Bliss, towards Nibbana… Here is only Change, Flux, Transience, Impermanence, Passing, Dissolution & Disintegration. Here is only Pain, Suffering, Dissatisfaction, Disappointment, Danger, Frustration & Misery. Here is only Impersonality, Egolessness, Selflessness and Ownerlessness lacking any Core. No Self is found neither here nor there... There is Action yet no-one is known doing it. There is a Noble Way yet no-one is seen travelling it. There is a Nibbana yet no-one appears to enter it. These are the Facts. No constructed identification is worth Clinging to. Let it all go, Give it Up ! Relinquish it ! Release it ! Not Agreeable, yet quite Advantageous! Not Pleasurable, yet quite Liberating! Not Enjoyable, yet quite Deathless… The Six Sextets http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * ..... #78605 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:09 am Subject: Re: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Scott) - In a message dated 11/13/2007 1:50:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: P.S. Could alaya be something like "bhavanga - citta" of Abhidhamma? ============================== Perhaps 'bhavangasota'? With metta, Howard #78606 From: Elaine Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Q. to Elaine. shennieca Hi Nina, Thank you for your e-m. I don't know much about Abhidhamma but I am interested in learning it. In this e-m, I would like to present my views of the advantages and disadvantages of studying the Abhidhamma. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thank you. :-)) In my opinion, reading the Abhidhamma can make a person become humble. Why humble? It is because the Abhidhamma classifies every mental factor and every element that make up a human being, and when a person about reads it, it makes them know that they are truly self-less (and soul-less). Although this knowing is only superficial-knowledge, hopefully it will encourage the readers to find out and experience this ‘selfless-ness’ for themselves through direct-experience. Imo, this Abhidhamma-reading-experience is similar to seeing a corpse that is cut vertically into half with exposed brains and exposed internal organs. For some people, after seeing a human-being like that, there will be a paradigm change in the mind. They will come to understand that a human is just like that corpse, made up of tears, sinews, bones, phlegm and etc. There is nothing to get attached to in this filthy body. Reading the Abhidhamma is like dissecting the mind because in the end, we will come to realize that there is absolutely nothing to get attached to in the mind. But studying the Abhidhamma can become a double-edged sword. Too much Abhidhamma book knowledge can make a person have ‘intellectual pride’. They think that they know everything about life, everything about mind and matter, and they use that Abhidhammic knowledge to argue with people and to win debates. When it becomes like that, it becomes a burden instead, and wisdom will not grow. But not many people are like that, I think. Most people are sincere in studying the Abhidhamma for the benefit of escaping from Samsara. I am interested in studying the Abhidhamma but I am afraid of falling into the same ‘intellectual-pride’ trap. But I sincerely think that you have benefited from Abhidhamma knowledge. You always use it wisely and you have shown a lot of patience and compassion towards all members in DSG. I am genuinely touched by your dedication to study and teach the Abhidhamma. I really admire you for that. Sadhu! -- I will read about the Anusaya (latent tendencies) and ask more questions in my next email. I read that Arahants don’t have any Anusaya-moha but Sotapanna, Sakadagami and Anagami still have some Anusaya-moha left. Normal people have lots of Anusaya-moha, is there anything we can do about it? #78607 From: Elaine Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Q. to Elaine. - resend the last bit. shennieca Hi Nina, all, The last question was phrased wrongly. Rephrased, "normal people have lots of Anusaya-moha, is there anything that can be done about it"? I forgot to sign my name at the end of the e-m, sorry! Thank you. Sincerely, Elaine #78608 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:37 pm Subject: Re: Daily Reminders philofillet HI DC > "If there is a lot of clinging to self" then there is clinging, then that is not ok. Because that is ta.nhaa. > The basic antidote for this is daana. Thank you for this excellent reminder! I sometimes express a relaxed attitude towards clinging to self - I think this is a reaction to teachings of some teachers and friends that stress detachment, not-self too soon, without enough attention to the Buddha's gradual training. But as you say " a lot of clinging to self" is *not* ok. I will be reflecting on dana today thanks to you. Metta, Phil #78609 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:06 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) kenhowardau Hi DC, Welcome to the thread. --------------- DC: > Dear Dieter, Tep, Ken O, Ken H You all are having a nice discussion on anatta. The temptation to join is overpowering. So just a few words according to the sutta. --------------- You are referring here to the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, aren't you? ----------------- DC: > 1. Aatman is really a Vedic concept. It is to do with the sense of I we all have. Different people gave different meanings or even different names to this. ---------------- Let's not concern ourselves with that. When the Buddha delivered the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta he announced to the world something previously unknown. What was it? ---------------------- DC: > 2. Now According to DO pancakkhanda is a reality (otherwise DO is false) 3. You can't find anything other than five-khandhas when the 'human being' is analysed in terms of the five khandhas. ---------------------- I agree, the conditioned namas and rupas that comprise the five khandhas are absolutely real. Apart from them and nibanna, there is no other reality. -------------------------------- DC: > 4. Ruupa.m bhikkave anattaa.. form (is) no atta. Similarly, for the other khandhas --------------------------------- Yes. The Buddha said, "Bhikkhus, the rupa khandha is anatta. (As are the vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana khandhas.)" In other words, he said, "Bhukkhus, every conditioned dhamma bears the characteristic, anatta." Prior to the Buddha's teaching, no one knew that the five khandhas bore this particular characteristic. But after that time, the universal anatta-lakkhana was known to all bhikkhus (all individuals who were able to understand the teaching when they heard it). ------------------- DC: > 5. yadnicca.m ta.m dukkha.m -- definition of dukkha (philosophically) ------------------- Now you've lost me. Is that from the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta? Never mind, we can skip it for now. ------------------------- DC: > 6. The next question the Buddha asks is: Is it proper to consider what is impermanent as I me mine. ------------------------- Yes, and he was asking bhikkhus - people who were able to understand the Dhamma when they heard it. Therefore, when they answered they were speaking from direct experience, not from mere hearsay. When dhammas are directly known, not only as anicca and dukkha but also as anatta, they cannot be objects of either clinging (this is mine), or of conceit (this is how I am), or of wrong view (this is my self). ----------------------- DC: > 7. Well the choice is ours, if we don't mind anicca and dukkha, then atta is. If we wish permanence and satisfaction then atta is: and we continue in sa.msaara. (we go round the mulberry bush) ----------------------- Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but you seem to be implying that there is a choice.(!) All dhammas (even the unconditioned dhamma) bear the characteristic, anatta. There is no choice in the matter. There can be ignorance (moha) of that characteristic, and there can be denial (miccha- ditthi) of it, but there cannot be a choice. The laws of the universe apply regardless of whether or not we agree with them. ------------------------------- DC: > 8. That is the logic. [Ken H, could you please check whether the logic is ok.] No interpretation. 9. But this is not the verification. For that you need to travel the path. No chance of understanding it until you become an arahant. Is there any purpose in discussing such a topic? ---------------------------------- The Anattalakkhana Sutta ends by saying: "Now during this utterance, the hearts of the bhikkhus of the group of five were liberated from taints through clinging no more." (end quote) In other words, they followed the Eightfold Path as they listened to the sutta. What happened was as the sutta describes: "Bhikkhus, when a noble follower who has heard (the truth) sees thus, he finds estrangement in form, he finds estrangement in feeling, he finds estrangement in perception, he finds estrangement in determinations, he finds estrangement in consciousness. "When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'" (end quote) That is what happened as the bhikkhus listened to the sutta. And yet people still say the Path is a series of rituals (sitting in a certain way, concentrating on a single concept, noting distractions that occur and letting them go, etc. etc.)! Even though we see the words of the sutta there is no guarantee we will understand them, is there? Wrong views are very hard to get rid of. ---------------------- DC: > No chance of understanding it until you become an arahant. Is there any purpose in discussing such a topic? ----------------------- That is the strangest thing I have ever heard anyone say at DSG! Ken H #78610 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daily Reminders dcwijeratna Hi Phil, "I will be reflecting on dana today thanks to you." "Anumodaami" -- I rejoice (or pleased) after you. Here are two or three points that has helped me to appreciate the importance of "daana". 1. The Buddhist Path for the householder is daana, siila, bhaavana. So the start. Anguttara Nikaaya 2. First of the ten Paaramiis. Wessantara etc. drummed into our ears as children. 3. For me the most convincing. As a prelude to the Buddha's saamukka.msika desanaa, that is the exposition of the Four Noble Truths, the Buddha delivered what is called "aanupubbiikathaa," or a gradual talk. It goes like this: daanakathaa, siila katha, saggakathaa, kaammana.m aadiinavam, okaara.m, sa.mkilesa.m, nekkamme aanisa.msa.m. It starts with a talk on giving; then virtue and so on. Vinaya Mahaavagga gives the 'details' and is given in many places of the Sutta Pi.taka. May the above help you in your reflections. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna P. S. In the morning when I switched on to Yaahoo Mail, the first thing I saw was your e-m. It made me very happy and pleased with myself. So many thanks to you. #78611 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:53 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Q. to Elaine. .. In Accordance with the Dhamma ... buddhistmedi... Hi Elaine (Nina, ...), - Thank you for mentioning 'anusaya' and asking Nina an interesting question. >E: I read that Arahants don't have any Anusaya-moha but Sotapanna, Sakadagami and Anagami still have some Anusaya-moha left. Normal people have lots of Anusaya-moha, is there anything we can do about it? T: I think (but am not sure) that 'Anusaya-moha' you talked about is the same as 'avijjanusaya' or 'avijjasamyojana'. For example, the Access To Insight's Glossary explains : .................. "There are seven major obsessions to which the mind returns over and over again: obsession with sensual passion (kama-raganusaya), with resistance (patighanusaya), with views (ditthanusaya), with uncertainty (vicikicchanusaya), with conceit (manusaya), with passion for becoming (bhava-raganusaya), and with ignorance (avijjanusaya). Compare samyojana." Samyojana = "fetter that binds the mind to the cycle of rebirth (see vatta) — self-identification views (sakkaya-ditthi), uncertainty (vicikiccha), grasping at precepts and practices (silabbata- paramasa); sensual passion (kama-raga), resistance (vyapada); passion for form (rupa-raga), passion for formless phenomena (arupa-raga), conceit (mana), restlessness (uddhacca), and unawareness (avijja)". [Access To Insight Glossary] .................. T: I think normal people have a lot of either anusaya or samyojana. Avijjasamyojana or avijjanusaya are only eradicated in an arahant. As a "normal person" I do not know if there is "anything we can do about it" beyond practicing in accrdance with the Dhamma. "If a householder who observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct, should wish: 'Oh, that by realization myself with direct knowledge, I may here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of the heart and the deliverance by wisdom that are taint- free with exhaustion of taints!' it is possible that, by realization himself with direct knowledge, he may here and now enter upon and abide in the deliverance of the heart and the deliverance by wisdom that are taint-free with exhaustion of taints. Why is that? Because he observes conduct in accordance with the Dhamma, righteous conduct." [MN 41 Saleyyaka Sutta Translated from the Pali by ~Nanamoli Thera] .......... Tep === #78612 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:08 pm Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > >there are > indeed 10 impediments to the meditation laid out in Vism, such > things as family ties and various social concerns, and illnesses and > I forget what else. (This is the answer to the homework question I > posed the other day.) I think AS > > Thanks for letting me pop in, and out again. I encourage all > students of AS to study the Samadhi section of Vism as well as the > Understanding section which follows it. > >___ Dear Phil I assume it is this section of the Visuddhimagga that Nina mentions in Abhidhamma in Daily Life http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-21.htm "The 'Visuddhimagga' (III, 129) also states that one should sever any impediments to the development of samatha. Among them are one's dwelling, travelling and sickness. These can be hindrances to samatha. One should avoid living in a monastery which, for various reasons, is unfavourable to the development of samatha. "" and in her book The World in The Buddhist Sense, http://www.dhammastudy.com/WIBS3.html ""In the Visuddhimagga (III, 29) we read about the ten impediments. These are: dwelling, family, gain, class (students), building, travel, relatives, affliction (sickness), books and super-normal powers. As regards dwelling, for those who cultivate samatha the dwelling is only an impediment if it distracts one or if one has many belongings stored there. As regards family, this refers to relatives or a family of supporters who present food or other requisites to the monk. They can be distracting from the development of calm. As regards gain, this means here the four requisites of the monk. If he receives requisites from people all the time, he has to give them blessings and teach them Dhamma. In this way he will be engaged continuously. Class means students of suttas or students of Abhidhamma. If the monk has to teach students he has no opportunity for the development of samatha. Building means the construction of a building. This is always an impediment for samatha since one is engaged in seeing to the work. Travel is an impediment for samatha since one's thoughts are occupied with the journey. With the impediment of relatives is also meant the monk's teacher or pupil or others he is dwelling together with. If they are sick they are an impediment for samatha since they preoccupy him. Affliction is any kind of illness. It is an impediment when it causes suffering. As regards books, this is responsibility for the scriptures, or recitation of the scriptures. When he is engaged with these matters it will distract him from the development of samatha. It is said that nine of the ten impediments are hindrances only for samatha. They distract one from its cultivation. "" Robert #78613 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:08 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 kenhowardau Hi Dieter, 'continuing my reply to your message #78540: --------- > > KH: <. . .>TB has a point, of course: In the suttas, the Buddha tends not to address the question point-blank. But what is the true significance of that? > D: to avoid trouble within , one better addresses it indirectly .. as until the delusion of I/self is finally abolished (totally only at Arahat level liberated from the fetter of conceit) it is our mundane reality.. --------- You are using the terms "mundane" and "reality" in a way that is different from the Abhidhamma way. In the Abhidhamma, as I understand it, "mundane" refers to any dhamma that is not supramundane. And so "mundane vipassana" (for example) refers to satipatthana, whereas "supramundane vipassana" refers to the four stages of the Ariyan Eightfold Path. If we would all study Abhidhamma we could at least all use the same terminology. :-) But I think you are using "mundane" to mean "worldly." I think you are saying that wrong view can arise at any time until the stage of Stream-entry has been reached. I would agree with that, of course However, I would not agree that self is ever a reality of any kind - mundane or supramundane. The term "conventional reality" is sometimes used, but it refers to a kind of illusion, not to a kind of reality. ------------- <. . .> D: yes the questioner was not capable ... but those capable , i.e. who had given up the belief in the self , wouldn't have asked in the first place, would they? ------------- I think anyone who has not learnt about paramattha dhammas is incapable of understanding anatta. What use would it be to know there was no self without also knowing there were paramattha dhammas? I think it would leave a person with some kind of "nothing really exists" philosophy. That would be disastrous. If nothing really existed there would be no real difference between wholesome and unwholesome, and no real difference between right path and wrong path. It doesn't bear thinking about! :-) ----------------------- D: > To see the delusion of that I am , that is mine, that is my Self ..one needs insight work.. ------------------------ If the true Dhamma has been heard and wisely considered then insight (panna) can arise now. Every arising of panna constitutes the development of insight. Is that what you mean by "insight work?" Or are you referring to some kind of religious ritual? By "religious ritual" I mean any practice that is believed to be more than the mere arising - by conditions - of paramattha dhammas. ---------------------------------- <. . .> D: > quoting from MN 22 (extract ,transl. TB) <. . .> I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas." I think when you re- read you may recognise as well the difference of nibbana and pari-nibbana --------------------------------- Are you suggesting that "let go of" means "no longer believe in?" Do you envisage that parinibbana will be some kind of realisation that the Dhamma was not actually true? Will we utter something along the lines of "Wow, there is an eternal self after all! All that talk about anatta and conditionality was just a ruse (a strategy for improving my meditation)! Thank God for that! :-)" Ken H #78614 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:16 pm Subject: Realities and Concepts (3) hantun1 Dear All, I am presenting a series of Questions and Answers taken from the book, Realities and Concepts by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket. Comments and different opinions are welcome! -------------------- Question (4): If we don't cling to concepts, I fear that we don't know that this is a pen. Sujin: That is not so. We should know realities in accordance with the truth. What appears through the eyes falls away and then there are mind-door process cittas, which arise afterwards and know a concept. Panna (wisdom) should know realities as they are. It should know what is visible object, which appears through the eye-door. It should know that the experience of visible object is different from the moment that citta knows a concept. Thus we can become detached from the idea that visible object which appears are beings, people, or things; we can become detached from that which is the foundation of clinging. We should understand that when it is known that there is a man, a woman, beings, or different people, the object is an image or concept known through the mind-door. When we develop satipatthana we should know, in order to be able to realize the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, the characteristics of the realities just as they naturally appear. It should be known that paramattha dhammas are not concepts. One should continue to develop panna when realities appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense, and mind-door. -------------------- Metta, Han #78615 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Realities and Concepts (3) hantun1 Dear Nina, Khun Sujin’s answer to the question is not very clear. I do not think she answered the question: “If we don't cling to concepts, I fear that we don't know that this is a pen.” I do not understand the sentence: “It should know that the experience of visible object is different from the moment that citta knows a concept.” If you were to answer this question, how would you answer? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #78616 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:32 pm Subject: Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 buddhistmedi... Hi KenH (and Dieter), - You wrote in message #78547: >KenH: I wonder how far Ven Thanissaro will have to go before people get his message. How much more plainly can he put it? He does not believe there is no self. He believes in a self just as much as Christians and materialist-atheists do! He thinks all this talk about no-self is a big mistake that has stemmed from a mere "strategy" the Buddha (supposedly) devised as an aid to meditation. T: And Dieter only briefly responded : >D: Though I admit there are some statements which can be misunderstood your conclusion is rather far fetched as already mentioned. T: To be fair to the venerable, Ken, you should have given specific quotes from his articles or commentaries along with your criticism. Since you admitted that you had read less than 70% of the venerable's published materials, I thought if I could provide some relevant quotes for you, you might stop attacking him. Indeed, attacking a virtuous monk is not very beneficial to you at all. So, I seriously request that you carefully read the following excerpts taken from two of his many articles (just to get the idea). 1. Five Piles of Bricks. The Khandhas as Burden & Path http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/khandha.html TB: One of the most important of these perceptions is that of not- self. When the Buddha first introduced the concept of not-self in his second sermon (SN 22.59), he also introduced a way of strengthening its impact with a series of questions based around the khandhas. Taking each khandha in turn, he asked: "Is it constant or inconstant?" Inconstant. "And is what is inconstant stressful or pleasurable?" Stressful. "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" No. TB: These questions show the complex role the khandhas play in this second step of the path. The questions themselves are khandhas — of fabrication — and they use the concept of the khandhas to deconstruct any passion and delight that might center on the khandhas and create suffering. TB: "If you use them to define what you are as a person, you tie yourself down to no purpose. The questions keep piling on. But if you use them to put an end to suffering, your questions fall away and you're free. You never again cling to the khandhas and no longer need to use them to end your self-created suffering. As long as you're still alive, you can employ the khandhas as needed for whatever skillful uses you see fit. After that, you're liberated from all uses and needs, including the need to find words to describe that freedom to yourself or to anyone else." 2. Emptiness http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/emptiness.html TB: To master the emptiness mode of perception requires training in firm virtue, concentration, and discernment. Without this training, the mind tends to stay in the mode that keeps creating stories and world views. And from the perspective of that mode, the teaching of emptiness sounds simply like another story or world view with new ground rules. In terms of the story of your relationship with your mother, it seems to be saying that there's really no mother, no you. In terms of your views about the world, it seems to be saying either that the world doesn't really exist, or else that emptiness is the great undifferentiated ground of being from which we all came to which someday we'll all return. TB: These interpretations not only miss the meaning of emptiness but also keep the mind from getting into the proper mode. If the world and the people in the story of your life don't really exist, then all the actions and reactions in that story seem like a mathematics of zeros, and you wonder why there's any point in practicing virtue at all. If, on the other hand, you see emptiness as the ground of being to which we're all going to return, then what need is there to train the mind in concentration and discernment, since we're all going to get there anyway? And even if we need training to get back to our ground of being, what's to keep us from coming out of it and suffering all over again? So in all these scenarios, the whole idea of training the mind seems futile and pointless. By focusing on the question of whether or not there really is something behind experience, they entangle the mind in issues that keep it from getting into the present mode. TB: Now, stories and world views do serve a purpose. The Buddha employed them when teaching people, but he never used the word emptiness when speaking in these modes. He recounted the stories of people's lives to show how suffering comes from the unskillful perceptions behind their actions, and how freedom from suffering can come from being more perceptive. And he described the basic principles that underlie the round of rebirth to show how bad intentional actions lead to pain within that round, good ones lead to pleasure, while really skillful actions can take you beyond the round altogether. In all these cases, these teachings were aimed at getting people to focus on the quality of the perceptions and intentions in their minds in the present — in other words, to get them into the emptiness mode. Once there, they can use the teachings on emptiness for their intended purpose: to loosen all attachments to views, stories, and assumptions, leaving the mind empty of all greed, anger, and delusion, and thus empty of suffering and stress. And when you come right down to it, that's the emptiness that really counts. ............. I hope now you understand him better that he does not believe "in a self just as much as Christians and materialist-atheists do". Tep === #78617 From: "colette" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:24 pm Subject: "Number 9, Number 9, ..." ksheri3 Hi DC, I was just at Michigan Avenue and Superior waiting at the stop light and watching all the people go by. I cognized that I miss the days when I could walk around and have shopping bags full of stuff newly purchased at a store. Then, in my little depressed state today, I thought, "how petty, that is such an advertisement of consuming, gluttony" Now why would I want to consume and flaunt my consumption? That's exactly what I was thinking, so > "Is there any purpose in discussing such a topic?" I ponder your well placed question consideding what they speak of in Attaman or Atta when these are shunya conceptions of the mind and void of rupa. > 6. The next question the Buddha asks is: Is it proper to consider what is impermanent as I me mine. Where did that come from? That is such an easy concept to do away with since whether Nama or Rupa it could not be considered a self or the self. toodles, colette #78618 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:06 pm Subject: Re: "Number 9, Number 9, ..." scottduncan2 Dear colette, Sorry, I couldn't resist. I love the title - Revolution Number Nine. Classic. Turn me on dead man... Sincerely, Scott. #78619 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 8:52 pm Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) sukinderpal Dear Han, I was distracted by other things, including a newly acquired "iphone"; I tell you this is a toy for adults! ;-) I think that I understand you a little better now. Like you, I too had a drinking problem. Almost 8 years ago, when my second son was born, I thought that I should quit. This coincided with a decision to get back to taking an interest in Buddhism after having spent almost 7 years of indulging strongly in sense pleasures and trying to make money. When my son was two months old and motivated in part by the idea of keeping the precepts, I quit completely. Today, especially when I remember all the negative things that went with those periods of indulgence, I feel quite relieved. However I still have some fond memories of the "taste" of a good dark beer or a 12 yr. scotch whiskey and so when I go to a party or something, I have to talk myself out of the temptation to drink. There is almost `no' understanding involved and I can often see the "attachment to self" as being the motivating force. So yes Han, I can sympathize with you and I too am happy with "Sukin `doing'", knowing at the same time that if this is all that can arise now, better than nothing. But I don't find myself thinking during those times that "I am keeping a precept" and sure, whatever is the motivating force then, this also can be understood as being "conditioned". However I firmly believe that it is through "understanding" alone that the precepts themselves will be understood and followed better and better. I don't think as for example DC and Phil are saying, that somehow wisdom will come as a result of dana and sila regardless of the understanding. This to me is nonsense. It is almost saying that peoples of other religions who *do* "give" and are generally "moral", these are on their way towards panna being developed, even if they may not appreciate the Dhamma at all. Surely without hearing the Dhamma, then *everything* is done with "self" so to speak. How can it be expected that "self view" is being dealt with without any acknowledgement of it at any point?!! Things get muddled up when the idea of "doing" is strong, so much so that even while there may be genuine moments of kusala, such as dana, sila, metta, karuna etc. the *identification* with these turns out to be the motivating force instead of the appreciation of the value of those dhammas themselves. Who wants this, right? ;-) I've pasted your entire post below for reference. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Sukin, > > I thank you very, very much for taking all the trouble > to write a very long post for my benefit. > I will keep in my mind all the points you have kindly > mentioned. > > Those who are close to me know that I am a very > strange person. So strange that at times, I don't know > myself even. When I was drinking, I drank about 200 ml > of black label a day, everyday, for more than 40 > years. My close friends used many approaches to > persuade me to reduce my drinking. I did not listen. > When I was 70 for no apparent reason I suddenly > stopped drinking all together. I have not taken a drop > of whisky for the past 11 years. In the same way, > right now, I cannot *fully* accept no-person attitude. > Sometimes I will use no-Han approach, sometimes I will > use yes-Han approach. Nobody will be able to persuade > me to change my ways. I am also prepared to face the > consequences for that kind of attitude. I said I > believe in Sakka saasana and will observe more siila. > But if someone challenges me I will be prepared to > break the precepts and face the Sakka. But when time > comes I might be more anatta than those who are > advocating anatta today. > > But I repeat my sincere appreciation for your kind > words and wise suggestions. I will keep them in mind. > > Respectfully, > Han #78620 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:00 pm Subject: Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 kenhowardau Hi Tep, I try not to have unreasonable expectations. Perhaps I can occasionally help someone who is being led astray unwittingly by Bhikkhu Thanissaro's heterodoxy. However, if after becoming aware of the facts, someone should insist BT is right and the rest of the world's Buddhist teachers are wrong then so be it. There is only so much I can do. Ken H #78621 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:55 pm Subject: Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 buddhistmedi... Hi Ken H (and Dieter), - My reply follows your message. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > I try not to have unreasonable expectations. Perhaps I can occasionally > help someone who is being led astray unwittingly by Bhikkhu > Thanissaro's heterodoxy. However, if after becoming aware of the > facts, someone should insist BT is right and the rest of the world's > Buddhist teachers are wrong then so be it. There is only so much I can > do. > > Ken H > T: Thank you very much for the "kind" intention to set me free. ;-)) Peace. Tep === #78622 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:08 pm Subject: Re: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] sarahprocter... Dear Scott & Alex, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Can you find a more accurate reference to the sutta in AN? That given > below is not exactly helpful. > > A: "Lamotte identifies this Ekottaragama passage with the following > passage in the Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131)..." .... S: You might both take a look at an earlier message I wrote on this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19473 >B.bodhi’s translation (AN 4s, 78 ‘Four Wonderful Things’, p.109 in Anthology) reads: "People generally find pleasure in attachments, take delight in attachments and enjoy attachments. but when the dhamma of non-attachment is taught by the Tathagata, people wish to listen to it, give ear and try to understand it. this is the first wonderful and marvellous thing that appears on the manifestation of a Tathagata, an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One. (Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam odahati annacittam upattapeti. Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo patubhavati.) ***** These meanings of aalaya conform with the common meaning given above, i.e ‘attachment,desire, craving, lust’. There is no suggestion of citta or vinnana or luminous or soul or self. As I mentioned before, I see no suggestion of ‘alaya’ in the Pali Canon referring to any store consciousness either in any aspect.< Metta, Sarah ..... Scott: > "Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena > analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam odahati annacittam upattapeti. > > Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam > pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo patubhavati." > > Scott: Walpola notes, "The Pali Commentaries explain this term [alaya] > as 'attachment to the five sense-pleasures", and do not go deeper than > that. But this also is an aspect of the alaya Vijnana." > > I can see why the Commentaries explain the term as they do. At least > as defined by the PTS PED (influenced by the Theravadin Commentaries > no doubt): "Aalaya...1. orig. roosting place, perch, abode settling > place, house...2. "hanging on", attachment, desire, clinging, > lust...aalayaraama 'devoted to the things to which it clings' " .... Sarah: Yes! ========== #78623 From: han tun Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) hantun1 Dear Sukin, Thank you very much for your kind note. I have noted your important points. > > However I firmly believe that it is through "understanding" alone that the precepts themselves will be understood and followed better and better. > > Surely without hearing the Dhamma, then *everything* is done with "self" so to speak. How can it be expected that "self view" is being dealt with without any acknowledgement of it at any point?!! Things get muddled up when the idea of "doing" is strong, so much so that even while there may be genuine moments of kusala, such as dana, sila, metta, karuna etc. the *identification* with these turns out to be the motivating force instead of the appreciation of the value of those dhammas themselves. Who wants this, right? ;-) ------------------------------ Han: When I was young, my parents and grand-parents and Elders talked about “daana, siila, bhaavanaa” and they believed in the “gradual training” of six kathaas(anupubbi-kathaa), starting with daana-kathaa, siila-kathaa, and sagga-kathaa. But the time has changed. Now, people are talking about dependent origination, magga-kathaa, vipassana meditation, etc. Ledi Sayadaw, Mingun Sayadaw, Mogok Sayadaw, Mahaasi Sayadaw and other Sayadaws have also contributed, to a very large extent, towards the present-day study and practice of Buddha’s Teachings in Burma. But I am like a person holding onto two branches and dangling in the middle, not grasping firmly to the pre-War practice or the modern-day practice. But I am not worried. Whatever will be, will be, and I will do my very best to accumulate good kamma, and will leave the results to my kamma! I thank you once again for your post. With metta and respect, Han #78624 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Han & Larry), --- upasaka@... wrote: > S: Just for clarification, seeing, hearing, smeeling and tasting > consciousness are *accompanied* by neutral feeling. This was the point. > ============================== > As regards smelling & tasting, though quite possibly the case, this > is > counter-intuitive. ... S: I think there is much that we learn in the Teachings that is 'counter-intuitive' - look at all the discussions on anatta for a start! Of course, this is also why we ready that our own opinions or 'illuminations' and consequent understanding is said to be the weakest source of all, but if it agrees with the Tipitaka as recited at the early Councils, then (and only then) it should be accepted. ... > It is clear to me that the feeling of sights and sounds is neutral. > > These objects may be quickly followed by body-door objects that are > felt as > pleasant or unpleasant or by mind-door construction that results in a > pleasant or > unpleasant affective evaluation of a mind-door object, but sights and > sounds > themselves are unsurprisingly felt as neutral. > However, some tastes and smells seem to be universally and > immediately > felt as pleasant or unpleasant. I suppose that is just a seeming, > though. ... S: Yes, a 'seeming':-) We're talking about one very brief moment of vipaka citta only. More to come on this thread. Thx for joining in! Metta, Sarah ========== #78625 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Hi Howard & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Larry, here you are touching on what I've been talking about with > respect to what I call "fresh memories". The knowing of cetasikas must > be > after-the-fact and thus ever-so-slightly indirect. .... S: I've followed your other recent threads on this topic. Whether it be a rupa, citta or cetasika which is known that has just fallen away, it is referred to as 'present dhamma'. I've often referred to it as a 'perfect photocopy'. In CMA, B.Bodhi mentions Ledi Sayadaw's use of 'conformational mind-door process' following the experience of a sense door object. p.164 in CMA; "An eye-door process, for example, is followed by a conformational mind-door process (tadanuvattikaa manodvaaraviithi), which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the sense-door process." [I'd be interested to see this phrase in the Pali canon if anyone can trace it.] It is a present object by way of 'na'vattiba' (not-so-classifiable) object. It is never referred to as 'concept'. [I see the discussions we've had with K.Sujin on nimitta and the firebrand simile (which can also be found in the Atthasalini) as being on a different point relating to the understanding of nimitta of realities only until the 3rd stage of insight has been attained.] Metta, Sarah ======= #78626 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Larry & Han), --- upasaka@... wrote: >S: So if you put your hand in ice cold water, there will be unpleasant > bodily feeling (dukkha vedana) accompanying the citta of body sense > consciousness (vipaka citta) which experiences the coldness (a rupa). > This > will usually be followed by unhappy mental feeling (domanassa, another > kind of vedana) accompanying cittas in the javana cittas (in the sense > and > mind door processes). > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > That's as I see it also. I suppose the subsequent unpleasant mental > > feeling has the prior unpleasant feeling (of the coldness) as object - > it has the > just-fallen-away vedana as object; that is, it is a reaction to the > just-passed, unpleasant vedana. ... S: Very often, yes! We attach such great importance to our feelings, even though they are such brief, impermanent dhammas. This is why vedana has its own khandha and is 'the link' for clinging and then craving in D.O. Just one moment of akusala vipaka citta and then so many mental processes with aversion following. Of course, the aversion is not just to the vipaka vedana, but to any vedana arising. Dosa and domanassa on account of the domanassa following the dukkha vedana. I agree with Han that the Chachakka Sutta, MN148 is a very comprehensive and all-embracing sutta (my words). As it stresses, all feelings have to be understood. "Bhikkhus, dependent on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises; the meeting of the three is contact; with contact as condition there arises [a feeling] felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant. When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one.......aversion.......ignorance...." (Bodhi transl). (This follows after the passage stressing all these dhammas as anatta. Through understanding and disenchantment with these dhammas, there is dispassion and liberation. Metta, Sarah ======== #78627 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- Larry wrote: > Hi Sarah. > > Sarah: "My experience is that Goenka's comments on feelings (vedana) > have > always been very confused." > > Larry: I meant what is your experience of feeling? Has the feeling > associated with sadness > ever not arisen in the body in your experience, for example as a "heart > ache"? ... S: Here you are talking about rupas conditioned by cittas. For example, when we are sad or angry, the rupas of the body are affected, leading to the 'heart-ache' or other 'symptoms'. When we see someone who is sad or angry, we can see the colour of the face and the features change. This is all due to conditioning nature of the cittas on the rupas. (Remember, the 4 causes of rupas: kamma, citta, temperature, nutrition.) For feelings, I prefer to stick to vedana (feelings), the cetasikas which accompany cittas. These are all namas as I said. .... > > I suspect abhidhamma and Mr. Goenka are using the word "bodily" in > different ways. > Abhidhamma means bodily feeling is a feeling with a rupa as object. ... S: Yes, it refers to the vedana accompanying bodily experience of rupas. ... > Goenka means bodily > feeling is a feeling that arises in the body, even though it is nama. ... S: Best to stick to the meaning in the texts, including the suttas, instead of such confusions. Metta, Sarah ========== #78628 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Hi again Larry, --- Larry wrote: > S: "I think it's helpful to understand, even theoretically, that it > is neutral feeling that accompanies seeing consciousness. We attach such > great importance to what is seen and usually are under the delusion that > we have pleasant and unpleasant experiences whilst seeing different > objects. <...> ... > Larry: I think this is more a matter of distinguishing between seeing > consciousness and > feeling. If we keep the notion that only neutral feeling arises with > seeing, hearing, tasting, > and smelling we take the value out of kamma result (assuming that value > = feeling), and > we risk making nonsense out of the dependent arising formula. ... S: On the contrary, I think it helps us understand that the real problems in life are not the kamma results (vipaka), but the accumulated defilements which arise so quickly following such vipaka. Usually, people think the opposite - that it is the result of kamma that is so important. ... >Surely it > is unreasonable > to think that the neutral feeling of tasting consciousness is the > decisive support condition > for craving for food. ... S: Exactly, it is unreasonable. In fact it is the accumulated craving and ignorance which is the decisive support condition for further craving to arise on account of what is experienced through the senses. This is why there is no more craving for sense objects once the anusaya (latent tendencies) for such have been eradicated. ... >....but what conditioned the kamma > of past feeling > and how is satipatthana to know it? ... S: Remember the 3 rounds of kamma, vipaka and kilesa? In other words, defilements lead to further kamma which in turn results in vipaka, round and round. When reading about vipaka feelings in the Vism, I think we have to also understand that all feelings are implied. Attachment doesn't just arise on account of vipaka feelings. We have to understand these quotes in the context of our understand of conditions generally, such as how attachment accumulates by natural decisive support condition on account of any feelings (and other dhammas). ... >All we have to work with is the > present pleasant, > unpleasant, and neutral feeling. ... S: Not sure what you mean here, Larry. Care to elaborate? Metta, Sarah p.s I'm writing this set of posts surrounded by various workmen.....so maybe more typos than usual...certainly, many different cittas and feelings! ======= #78629 From: han tun Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your series. I have one request to make. You wrote: S: On the contrary, I think it helps us understand that the real problems in life are not the kamma results (vipaka), but the accumulated defilements which arise so quickly following such vipaka. Usually, people think the opposite – that it is the result of kamma that is so important. Han: I think I know what you mean. But to be absolutely clear, can you kindly elaborate on it, please? Respectfully, Han #78630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Q. to Elaine. nilovg Dear Elaine (and Tep), thank you for your good questions on Abhidhamma. Op 14-nov-2007, om 0:51 heeft Elaine het volgende geschreven: > In this e-m, I would like to present my views of the advantages and > disadvantages of studying the Abhidhamma. Please correct me if I'm > wrong. Thank you. :-)) > > In my opinion, reading the Abhidhamma can make a person become > humble. Why humble? It is because the Abhidhamma classifies every > mental factor and every element that make up a human being, and > when a person about reads it, it makes them know that they are > truly self-less (and soul-less). Although this knowing is only > superficial-knowledge, hopefully it will encourage the readers to > find out and experience this ‘selfless-ness’ for themselves through > direct-experience. ------- N: Yes, study in the right way helps to become more humble, less conceited. After all, there are only elements. Where is the self we tend to find so important? As you say, hopefully it will encourage the readers to find out and experience this ‘selfless-ness’ for themselves through direct- experience. Here you have understood the essence. Abhidhamma and vipassana, development of insight, should go together. I wrote before in 'Preservation of the Buddha's Teachings': We read in the Commentary to the “Middle Length Sayings” (III, 134, Baddhekaratta Sutta, Discourse on “One Single Excellent Night” ), that the Buddha, in the Heaven of Thirtythree, taught the Abhidhamma in alternation with the Baddhekaratta Sutta.... There are the following verses: The past should not be followed after, the future not desired. What is past is got rid of and the future has not come. But whoever has vision now here, now there of a present dhamma, The unmovable, unshakable, let him cultivate it . Swelter at the task this very day. Who knows whether he will die tomorrow? There is no bargaining with the great hosts of Death. Thus abiding ardently, unwearied day and night, He indeed is “Auspicious” called, described as a sage at peace. The Buddha taught people to develop right understanding of what appears at the present moment, and this is satipatthåna. The Abhidhamma explains in detail all realities of our daily life, and therefore it is very meaningful that he taught in the Heaven of the Thirtythree Abhidhamma in alternation with satipatthåna.> -------- > E: Imo, this Abhidhamma-reading-experience is similar to seeing a > corpse that is cut vertically into half ..... Reading the > Abhidhamma is like dissecting the mind because in the end, we will > come to realize that there is absolutely nothing to get attached to > in the mind. ------- N: To me this seems an intellectual appraoch. But I think that the Abhidhamma classifications help us to not being forgetful of seeing that appears now, hearing that appears now. If understanding of the present reality is not developed we have not understood the aim of studying the Abhidhamma. But as you said, the Abhidhamma can lead to direct experience of anatta. At this moment different cittas, cetasikas and rupas arise. We can learn that they arise because of their own conditions, not because we could cause their arising. They have different characteristics and there can be wise attention to these characteristics. --------- > > E: But studying the Abhidhamma can become a double-edged sword. Too > much Abhidhamma book knowledge can make a person have ‘intellectual > pride’. They think that they know everything about life, everything > about mind and matter, and they use that Abhidhammic knowledge to > argue with people and to win debates. When it becomes like that, it > becomes a burden instead, and wisdom will not grow. ------- N: I quite agree. The Expositor, Co to the first book of the Abhidhamma also warns about the wrong way of study of the Abhidhamma. This can lead to madness. --------- > > E: But not many people are like that, I think. Most people are > sincere in studying the Abhidhamma for the benefit of escaping from > Samsara. I am interested in studying the Abhidhamma but I am afraid > of falling into the same ‘intellectual-pride’ trap. ------- N: I think that it is good to keep in mind the general principles like: citta, cetasika and rupa in daily life. One can develop more understanding of these realities as they appear in daily life. ------- > But I sincerely think that you have benefited from Abhidhamma > knowledge. You always use it wisely ...sadhu..... -------- N: Thank you for your kind words. ------ > E: I will read about the Anusaya (latent tendencies) and ask more > questions in my next email. I read that Arahants don’t have any > Anusaya-moha but Sotapanna, Sakadagami and Anagami still have some > Anusaya-moha left. Normal people have lots of Anusaya-moha, is > there anything we can do about it? ------- N: The Buddha showed the way: development of right understanding so that there will be less ignorance. Tep explained about the anusayas or latent tendencies. And thanks Tep for the sutta. They are accumulated in each citta and I remembered that you found that this may seem like a store consciousness. I thought of an example. When my sister and I would visit a city like Paris, we always would make drawings of streets, the cathedral, old houses. My two brothers could not sketch at all. Once I hopefully gave my husband pencil and paper and we both sat down near a small palace in the neighbourhood of Versailles (near Paris). I started sketching, but my husband could not sketch, he hardly could draw a straight line. Where do such different abilities come from? It is citta that moves the hand so that one can sketch. Each citta falls away immediately, but still we can see different abilities. These are accumulated in each citta from moment to moment, to begin with the first citta in life. We are born with different abilities, different talents. A talent is not something static, it develops. My sister and I developed our ability to sketch and learnt to make water colors. Some people are born musical, and that stems from past lives, where else could it come from? I said that understanding is never lost and I meant: one moment of understanding is never in vain, it can grow and develop. It is accumulated in the citta. Perhaps this makes it clearer that citta accumulates different tendencies, good and bad, and also different talents, different tastes, different inclinations. Nina. #78631 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:51 am Subject: TSG nichiconn dear squad leader, right... trifles. mere nothings. nevertheless, play on: << scriptural warrant is everything, in the settlement of religious difficulties. >> - mabel "controversies have raged only too often over the veriest trifles" bode; and i warrant i don't know any better than to ponder that. anything to stay 'lost in thought'? Then I pick up that same (why must i live in the past?) 1897 PTS Journal, to find not CAF, but Thomas W___ R-D proclaiming: "I do hope, therefore, that our members will not neglect to push the claims of our Society among friends whenever they see a chance of doing so." so there we go... speaking of beautiful, i'm passing on the celestial players, also neither dovefooted nymphs nor nautch girls ... sorry to be unruly, your 5-aggregates as objects of clinging subscriber, and erstwhile -?- acquaintance with aspirations, connie #78632 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:46 am Subject: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] scottduncan2 Dear Sarah & Alex, Thanks, Sarah, for offering the reference. Very helpful: S: "B.bodhi's translation (AN 4s, 78 'Four Wonderful Things', p.109 in Anthology) reads: "People generally find pleasure in attachments, take delight in attachments and enjoy attachments. but when the dhamma of non-attachment is taught by the Tathagata, people wish to listen to it, give ear and try to understand it. this is the first wonderful and marvellous thing that appears on the manifestation of a Tathagata, an Arahant, a Fully Enlightened One." (Pali Anguttaranikaya (A II, p.131): Alayarama bhikkhave paja alayarata alayasammudita, sa Tathagatena analaye dhamme desiyamane sussuyati sotam odahati annacittam upattapeti. Tathagatassa bhikkhave arahato sammasambuddhassa patubhava ayam pathamo acchariyo abbhuto dhammo patubhavati.) Scott: I agree with you, Sarah, that it is an enormous stretch to suggest that this passage refers to storehouse consciousness. I'm nerdishly interested to note that the stretch is perhaps abetted by the very concrete application of the first sense of the meaning of 'aalaya' given in PTS PED: "1. orig. roosting place, perch, abode settling place, house." It would be a massive wish-fulfillment to suggest that 'house' here must refer to consciousness in some way. I'm reminded of the idea that no one chooses to find an affinity with a certain way of 'believing' in any given interpretation of the Dhamma. It would be by virtue of accumulations in part. Straightening of views would be finalised only by the 'work' of pa~n~naa and in relation to realities. This is why I find the preaching aspect of discussions to be rather futile (if not, for those with little patience such as myself, rather tedious). It is not by dint of persuasion that a natural tendency to 'believe' a certain thing is dispelled, it is in the only real way possible, and that is the ongoing 'study' of dhammas. In this way, Dhamma study is a very isolated process, proceeding in a flux essentially disconnected from all others. Sincerely, Scott. #78633 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:10 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (70) nichiconn dear friends, Part 15 13. Viisatinipaato 5. Subhaakammaaradhiitutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 361. "Saaha.m etaadisa.m katvaa, byasana.m kaamahetuka.m; na ta.m paccaagamissaami, nibbaanaabhirataa sadaa. 359. Since I have caused such misfortune because of sensual pleasures, I shall not return to them again. I shall always delight in quenching. txt: Saahanti saa aha.m, he.t.thaa vuttanayeneva satthu santike dhamma.m sutvaa pa.tiladdhasaddhaa kaame pahaaya pabbajitvaa .thitaati attho. Etaadisanti evaruupa.m vuttappakaara.m. Katvaati iti katvaa, yathaavuttakaara.nenaati attho. Na ta.m paccaagamissaamiiti ta.m mayaa pubbe vantakaame puna na paribhu~njissaami. Nibbaanaabhirataa sadaati yasmaa pabbajitakaalato pa.t.thaaya sabbakaala.m nibbaanaabhirataa, tasmaa na ta.m paccaagamissaamiiti yojanaa. 359. I (saaha.m) means: I (saa aha.m). As explained earlier, she heard the Doctrine in the Teacher's presence, gained faith, abandoned sensual pleasures, went forth, and was steadfast. That is the meaning. Such means: of the kind that has been spoken of. [I] have caused means: [I] have caused in this way because of the reasons spoken of. That is the meaning. I shall not return to them again means: I shall not enjoy again those sensual pleasures rejected by me previously. I shall always delight in quenching means: from the time I went forth, I always delight in quenching. Therefore, I shall not return to them. That is the connection. verse: 362. "Ra.na.m taritvaa kaamaana.m, siitibhaavaabhika"nkhinii; appamattaa vihassaami, sabbasa.myojanakkhaye. 360. Desiring the cool state, I have crossed over the intoxication of sensual pleasures. I shall dwell vigilant when all bonds are destroyed. txt: Ra.na.m taritvaa kaamaananti kaamaana.m ra.na.m taritvaa, ta~nca mayaa kaatabba.m ariyamaggasa.mpahaara.m katvaa. Siitibhaavaabhika"nkhiniiti sabbakilesadarathapari.laahavuupasamena siitibhaavasa"nkhaata.m arahatta.m abhika"nkhantii. Sabbasa.myojanakkhayeti sabbesa.m sa.myojanaana.m khayabhuute nibbaane abhirataa. 360. I have crossed over the intoxication of sensual pleasures means: I have crossed over the intoxication of sensual pleasures and having fought the fight through the noble path, I have done what ought to be done. Desiring the cool state (siiti-bhaavaabhikha"nkhinii) means: desiring (abhik"nkhantii) the state of Arahatship, which is called the cool state (siiti-bhaava-sa"nkhaata.m) because of the calming of the fever and distress of all the defilements. When all bonds are destroyed (sabba-sa.myojana-kkhaye) means: greatly rejoicing in quenching, which is the destruction (khaya-bhuute) of all (sabbesa.m) bonds (sa.myojanaana.m). verse: 363. "Asoka.m viraja.m khema.m, ariya.t.tha"ngika.m uju.m; ta.m magga.m anugacchaami, yena ti.n.naa mahesino. 361. I [shall] follow that griefless, stainless, secure, straight, noble eightfold path by which the great seers have crossed. txt: Yena ti.n.naa mahesinoti yena ariyamaggena buddhaadayo mahesino sa.msaaramahogha.m ti.n.naa, ahampi tehi gatamagga.m anugacchaami, siilaadipa.tipattiyaa anupaapu.naamiiti attho. 361. By which the great seers have crossed means: through [following] the noble path by which the great seers such as the Buddhas have crossed the great flood of continued existence, I too shall follow the path taken by them. I shall attain the practice of virtuous conduct, etc. That is the meaning. === to be continued, connie #78634 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:15 am Subject: Perfections Corner (36) nichiconn Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 7: The Perfection of Truthfulness, taken from the book "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ When we are angry and displeased, when we look down upon someone who is evil or commits bad deeds, we have akusala citta; our citta is similar to the citta of an evil person, because we have contempt for him. Even a short phrase of the Dhamma can help us to develop sati-sampaja~n~na and to have a growing understanding of the realities arising within ourselves, so that we can further develop kusala. We read in the Commentary: "He should rejoice in the merits of all beings." When we notice someone else's kusala and we rejoice in it, we are truthful, we are sincere in our appreciation of his kusala. We may not be able to perform a good deed ourselves, but we can appreciate someone else's kusala. If we do not appreciate this, the citta is akusala. The perfection of truthfulness is essential. We read in the Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" in the Miscellaneous Sayings that the perfection of truthfulness should be reviewed thus: "Without truthfulness, virtue, etc., is impossible, and there can be no practice in accordance with one's vows. All evil states converge upon the transgression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future. On the other hand, one devoted to truth secures the foundation of all noble qualities. With truthfulness as the foundation, he is capable of purifying and fulfilling all the requisites of enlightenment. Not deceived about the true nature of phenomena, he performs the functions of all the requisites of enlightenment and completes the practice of the bodhisattva path." As we read, "without truthfulness, virtue, etc., is impossible." This means that without truthfulness, one does not speak the truth, acts with deception, and all one's deeds are crooked. Without truthfulness, one cannot observe siila and there is no practice in accordance with one's vows. Vow, pa.ti~n~naa, means being steadfast in truthfulness {*}. If someone does not speak the truth he cannot act in accordance with his vow. {*} The Bodhisatta made a vow to attain Buddhahood. As we read in the Commentary, "All evil states converge upon the transgression of truth. One who is not devoted to truth is unreliable and his word cannot be accepted in the future." Thus, we see the significance of the perfection of truthfulness. This is truthfulness and sincerity with regard to the right practice leading to the eradication of defilements; it includes the development of all kinds of kusala so that the noble Truths can be realized. We need the perfection of sacca, truthfulness, with regard to the right practice: our sole purpose should be the penetration of the true nature of realities. === to be continued, connie #78635 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/14/2007 2:49:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard & all, --- upasaka@... wrote: > Larry, here you are touching on what I've been talking about with > respect to what I call "fresh memories". The knowing of cetasikas must > be > after-the-fact and thus ever-so-slightly indirect. .... S: I've followed your other recent threads on this topic. Whether it be a rupa, citta or cetasika which is known that has just fallen away, it is referred to as 'present dhamma'. I've often referred to it as a 'perfect photocopy'. In CMA, B.Bodhi mentions Ledi Sayadaw's use of 'conformational mind-door process' following the experience of a sense door object. p.164 in CMA; "An eye-door process, for example, is followed by a conformational mind-door process (tadanuvattikaa manodvaaraviithi), which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the sense-door process." [I'd be interested to see this phrase in the Pali canon if anyone can trace it.] It is a present object by way of 'na'vattiba' (not-so-classifiable) object. It is never referred to as 'concept'. [I see the discussions we've had with K.Sujin on nimitta and the firebrand simile (which can also be found in the Atthasalini) as being on a different point relating to the understanding of nimitta of realities only until the 3rd stage of insight has been attained.] Metta, Sarah =================================== Yes, thank you. This makes sense to me - a directly resultant "response state" immediately following the ceasing of the experience of the then-present object. I agree that there is no conceptualizing involved. Actually, the term 'object' or 'alambana' need not refer to something present, but merely to whatever the present mind state "pertains." (That is even why it is even legitimate to speak of pa~n~natti as objects, with pa~n~natti never literally being present.) With metta, Howard #78636 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:35 am Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) philofillet Hi Robert > I assume it is this section of the Visuddhimagga that Nina mentions in > Abhidhamma in Daily Life Yes, those are the ones. Thanks for posting them in full. Metta, Phil #78637 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Daily Reminders philofillet Hi DC > P. S. In the morning when I switched on to Yaahoo Mail, the first thing I saw was your e-m. It made me very happy and pleased with myself. So many thanks to you. Seeing your message is the last thing I see now as I switch off to go to bed, so I am happy too. Our friend Han led a study corner on Dana several months that I will revisit. Metta, Phil #78638 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) ashkenn2k Hi Dieter > D: the point I wanted to make is that the wisdom/state of anatta > (without a remaining of Self/I) is only realized at Arahant level, > before there is still attachment , ignorance /avijja still > conditioning the kamma force /volition. The delusion /moha is still > working (tanha). > D.O. describes the process how the suffering comes into being for > the ignorant person , > the delusion of self ' running through the chain' .. > Unlike Anicca and Dukkha , which are obvious at closer look , > Anatta is something to be realised as a truth....before the law is > ' veiled '.. KO: the true essence may only be realized at Arahant level but Arahant also starts from worldings. It does not matter the true essence is experience here or not, it is the matter of starting the journey of understanding it. Anatta can be experienced, when one start this journey, you would find yourself experiencing this here and there. > > D: yes but there 2 kinds of (right) understanding, the mundane and > the supramundane one. ...the latter starting with the Streamenterer KO: Stream enterer they also start from mundane :-) > > D: the Buddha requested to see for oneself whether anything can be > found within the whole existence (the 5 khandas) that can be called > self , so coming to the insight of anatta , and detach, giving up > the idea/delusion of self : that I am , that is mine, that I want > to be.. > KO: As I said earlier, anatta can be experienced. it is something you would know. One of the most interesting experience i have is when it was raining, people were running while I am still walking because to me it is just water element that was experience :-), no concern about the self while other worry about the self getting wet :-). Cheers Ken O #78639 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:53 am Subject: Re: Daana Corner (01) philofillet Hi again DC and all Here is msg. #68504, the first in the forementioned Study Corner on Daana for those who are interested in revisiting it. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi had compiled and edited some > selected essays by the following authors. > > The Practice of Giving (Susan Elbaum Jootla) > Giving in the Pali Canon (Lily de Silva) > Giving from the Heart (M. O'C. Walshe) > Generosity: The Inward Dimension (Nina van Gorkom) > The Perfection of Giving (Acariya Dhammapala) > > I will present this document in installments for the > Group members to discuss. > ------------------------------ > > I will start with the Introduction by Bhikkhu Bodhi. > > ------------------------------ > > Introduction by Bhikkhu Bodhi > > The practice of giving is universally recognized as > one of the most basic human virtues, a quality that > testifies to the depth of one's humanity and one's > capacity for self-transcendence. In the teaching of > the Buddha, too, the practice of giving claims a place > of special eminence, one which singles it out as being > in a sense the foundation and seed of spiritual > development. In the Pali suttas we read time and again > that "talk on giving" (danakatha) was invariably the > first topic to be discussed by the Buddha in his > "graduated exposition" of the Dhamma. Whenever the > Buddha delivered a discourse to an audience of people > who had not yet come to regard him as their teacher, > he would start by emphasizing the value of giving. > Only after his audience had come to appreciate this > virtue would he introduce other aspects of his > teaching, such as morality, the law of kamma, and the > benefits in renunciation, and only after all these > principles had made their impact on the minds of his > listeners would he expound to them that unique > discovery of the Awakened Ones, the Four Noble Truths. > > The Introduction by Bhikkhu Bodhi to be continued. > > Han #78640 From: Ken O Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Realities and Concepts (1) ashkenn2k Hi DC sorry for the late reply > > We understand differently. According to Madhupi.ndika sutta, MN: > > "Cakkhu.m pa.ticca ruupe ca uppajjati cakkhuvi~n~naana.m...." > > Seeing (eye-consciousness) arises on account of the eye and a form. > Along with that arises --vedanaa. Vedanaa is three-fold (pleasant, > unpleasant and neutral) as perceived by the one who recognises. > (he) recognises the form. (ya.m vedeti ta.m sa.njaanaati.) KO: the one in B Bodhi is not translated in such a manner. > There is one citta, all these three things happen together. A > series of cittas is "Abhidhamma analysis" and is false (micchaa > di.t.thi). It doesn't have the authority of the Buddha. As far as > we are concerned anything that doesn't have the authority of the > Buddha is false. They are mere views. KO: In Abhidhamma it is a series of cittas, Because the sense citta only doing mere experiencing the sense objects, it needs the receiving, investigating and determining citta to fully understand the object before it is propel into impulsion of seven cittas > > Further, our experience confirms the Madhupi.ndika analysis. When > we see a man we see him. That's all. Only "citta" here is the > eye-consciousness, vedanaa and sa~n~naa are two "properties" of > that. One is the feeling aspect and the other is the knowledge. > This sa~n~naa is really what we call knowledge. Since it is > coloured by our feelings. It is avijjaa--delusion. KO: Sanna is not knowledge, sanna is only marking of an object. Panna is the knowledge, penetration the characteristics of an object. Cheers Ken O #78641 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:34 am Subject: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] truth_aerator Dear Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear Scott & Alex, > These meanings of aalaya conform with the common meaning given above, i.e `attachment,desire, craving, lust'. There is no suggestion of citta or vinnana or luminous or soul or self. As I mentioned before, I see no > suggestion of `alaya' in the Pali Canon referring to any store > consciousness either in any aspect.< > > Metta, > > Sarah > As I understand Alaya Vinnana is NOT a self or a soul. And mind IS NOT some absolute, it is actually an 'error' rather than some good source from which everything comes and where everything returns. Furthermore, where is Kamma stored? We could be dealing with issue of semantics rather than doctrinal issues. Lots of Metta, Alex #78642 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:55 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, When we were in Nålandå, we went to the grounds where the ancient monastic university has been excavated and sat down on the grass for a Dhamma discussion. The Buddha used to stay in Nålandå in Påvårika’s Mango Grove where people from different religious groups visited him to discuss with him. Several centuries later a university was founded in Nålandå that became a famous center of learning for different religious groups. The Chinese pilgrim Hiuen Tsang, who lived in the seventh cetury, became a bright scholar in this university and he stayed in Nålandå for a long time. At that time Buddhism was already disappearing from India. There must have been many debates in Nålandå between different schools of thought. Acharn Sujin mentioned that one should carefully consider different points of view and that one should investigate the scriptures and commentaries in order to understand the subtle points of Dhamma, so that the teachings can be kept free from corruptions. She mentioned that, after her return, there would be a board meeting in Bangkok of the Dhamma Study and Support Foundation to compare different viewpoints and clear up misunderstandings. The goal of such meetings is preserving the purity of the Buddha’s teachings [1]. In Nålandå we discussed the meaning of nimitta, the Påli term for image or mental picture. She explained that we think of an image on account of what we see, hear, and experience through all the sense- doors. We pay attention to an image of a whole and we are absorbed in all its details (in Påli: anuvyañjana). When we perceive a rose we think immediately of its shape and form, of an image, a concept; we may not even think of the name “rose”, but when we perceive the shape and form of a rose we are bound to take it for something that really exists. Each citta is accompanied by the cetasika saññå, perception or remembrance, that remembers or “marks” the object so that it can be recognized later on. The recognition of a thing or a person is the result of many different processes of cittas, each of which is accompanied by saññå performing its function of marking and remembering. We may reason about the way saññå operates and wonder how and when it remembers a past object. This is only thinking, and by thinking we shall not understand realities. When someone found it difficult to understand that saññå marks as well as remembers, she answered that it is difficult to find a term that covers the real meaning of saññå. Acharn Sujin said that we should not cling to terms but understand the characteristics of realities appearing at this moment. The purpose of our study of the Dhamma is detachment, detachment from the idea of self. We can begin to understand, whenever we perceive different things we handle or use in daily life, such as a cup and a saucer or the computer, or whenever we perceive people, that it is not due to a self who remembers but to saññå. Saññå is an important condition for clinging. ---------- 1. For more than thirty years Acharn Sujin has been given regular lectures in Temples and these have been recorded and relayed on the radio within Thailand and in neighbouring countries. The Dhamma Study and Support Foundation is an organisation set up around these activities. Some years ago a centre was built on donated land and, here, Acharn Sujin, the main teacher, and her students now teach and discuss the Dhamma. ******** Nina. #78643 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) moellerdieter Hi Ken O, you wrote: 'KO: Stream enterer they also start from mundane :-) D: ' :-) ' ?? I have already mentioned before : (K.O.: No one said this teaching is not accepted, we are saying right understanding is important when Buddha say these. Understanding is the forerunner.) D: yes but there 2 kinds of (right) understanding, the mundane and the supramundane one. ...the latter starting with the Streamenterer which you seemingly do not accept.. so I suggest you have a look at Nyanatiloka's definition of magga, respectively read e.g. MN 117 with Metta Dieter #78644 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Realities and Concepts (1) dcwijeratna Hi Ken O, Many thanks for your reply. We have different approaches, it appears. You have clarified your position well. Kind regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78645 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Daana Corner (01) dcwijeratna Hi Phil It is BPS publication. I think the whole thing can be downloaded from Access to Insight. Best regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78646 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 moellerdieter Hi Ken H, Tep and .. you wrote: ( D: to avoid trouble within , one better addresses it indirectly .. as until the delusion of I/self is finally abolished (totally only at Arahat level liberated from the fetter of conceit) it is our mundane reality..) You are using the terms "mundane" and "reality" in a way that is different from the Abhidhamma way. In the Abhidhamma, as I understand it, "mundane" refers to any dhamma that is not supramundane. And so "mundane vipassana" (for example) refers to satipatthana, whereas "supramundane vipassana" refers to the four stages of the Ariyan Eightfold Path. If we would all study Abhidhamma we could at least all use the same terminology. :-) D: received here as a bit condenscending , Ken ... KH:But I think you are using "mundane" to mean "worldly." D:it is synonym , isn't it? I better had left 'mundane ' out ,i.e. 'snip .. as until the delusion of I/self is finally abolished (totally only at Arahat level liberated from the fetter of conceit) it is our reality.. By adding 'mundane' I wanted to stress our situation , not even having reached the first super/supra mundane level (refering to the four stages of the ' Ariyan Eightfold Path' as you said). KH: I think you are saying that wrong view can arise at any time until the stage of Stream-entry has been reached. I would agree with that, of course D: in particular wrong view in respect to the fetters KH: However, I would not agree that self is ever a reality of any kind - mundane or supramundane. The term "conventional reality" is sometimes used, but it refers to a kind of illusion, not to a kind of reality. D: yes, that is a good point: conventional reality... and it refers to a kind of illusion/ self delusion with the background of khanda attachment. as I see it, the delusion (ignorance) is real until abolished by insight and replaced by panna until then our action is (partly) directed by it, as anatta not yet fully penetrated. I suppose this kind of 'reality' refers to concept in Abhidammic terms? KH: I think anyone who has not learnt about paramattha dhammas is incapable of understanding anatta. What use would it be to know there was no self without also knowing there were paramattha dhammas? I think it would leave a person with some kind of "nothing really exists" philosophy. That would be disastrous. If nothing really existed there would be no real difference between wholesome and unwholesome, and no real difference between right path and wrong path. It doesn't bear thinking about! :-) D: considered that the Buddha Dhamma Vinaya isn't mentioning (the definition of ) Paramattha Dhammas, i.e. involving khandas AND nibbana , and e..g that unwholesome and wholesome action is clearly defined , I disagree. The use to learn that there is 'ultimately, no self , but an appearing delusion, is the reason of investigation /insight work( vipassana) KH: (D: > To see the delusion of that I am , that is mine, that is my Self ..one needs insight work..----------------------- If the true Dhamma has been heard and wisely considered then insight (panna) can arise now. Every arising of panna constitutes the development of insight. Is that what you mean by "insight work?" Or are you referring to some kind of religious ritual? By "religious ritual" I mean any practice that is believed to be more than the mere arising - by conditions - of paramattha dhammas. ' D: "religious ritual" ? would you call that e.g to sit down , calm down and reflect all aspects (of body, feeling, mind and mind objects) the Buddha described in the training of mindfulness , i.e. the Maha Satipatthana Sutta? KH: Are you suggesting that "let go of" means "no longer believe in?" D: let go means to detach ..it is more than ' no longer to believe in ' , we let go when we know due to better insight ...( detachment the point when we talk about that suffering is in brief 5Khanda attachment) KH: Do you envisage that parinibbana will be some kind of realisation that the Dhamma was not actually true? D: you have problems to accept the simile of the raft , haven't you? And again: there is a difference between nibbana and pari nibbana KH: Will we utter something along the lines of "Wow, there is an eternal self after all! All that talk about anatta and conditionality was just a ruse (a strategy for improving my meditation)! Thank God for that! :-)" D: meditation serves to obtain wisdom..as part of the 3fold Noble Path training.. your assumption of Ven. Thanissaro's interpretation obviously lends wings to your fantasy ;-) with Metta Dieter #78647 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] to Han: Realities and Concepts (3) nilovg Dear Han, Op 14-nov-2007, om 4:23 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Khun Sujin’s answer to the question is not very clear. > > I do not think she answered the question: “If we don't > cling to concepts, I fear that we don't know that this > is a pen.” ------- N: The questioner is afraid that he cannot lead his daily life, such as writing with a pen. His question is strange: he says if I do not cling to concepts, instead of: if I do not know that this is a concept. Let us look first at Kh S.'s answer: She goes first back to basics: the questioner should first know what a concept is, what a reality is. He may not know what he is talking about. We do not have to learn being absorbed in stories, in concepts of people and things. We are already, our whole life. Knowing realities one at a time as they appear through one of the six doors is a new outlook. We did not know this before hearing the Buddha's teachings. ------- H: I do not understand the sentence: “It should know that the experience of visible object is different from the moment that citta knows a concept.” ------- N: Kh. S. explains that he should know when he experiences visible object and when citta hasa concept (such as a pen) as object and she gives the reason: It seems that we are seeing people all the time and we cling. It is important to know that seeing only sees colour or visible object, no person. A person is a concept citta thinks of. Note the last sentence as an exhortation: > eyes, > ears, nose, tongue, bodysense, and mind-door. > That is what we are forgetful of, of realities. We are usually engaged with concepts, thus there is no danger that we do not know what we are doing, or do not know how to write. When we have confidence that understanding realities leads to detachment, we are not bored to hear the same things over and over again: to develop panna when realities appear through eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense, and mind-door. Listening and considering often can lead to wise attention to the reality of visible object or seeing sometimes. I say: sometimes. Who could expect many moments? This is the way to gradually know the truth. It can come naturally when the conditions are present. , Kh Sujin said in India. This means: if there is an idea of self who tries so hard it will not work. Nina. #78648 From: Elaine Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Q. to Elaine. shennieca Hi Nina, Thank you for your e-m. Nina: At this moment different cittas, cetasikas and rupas arise. We can learn that they arise because of their own conditions, not because we could cause their arising. They have different characteristics and there can be wise attention to these characteristics. Elaine: It is possible to see/experience/understand the rise and fall of these citta, cetasikas and rupa but I believe it is only possible when there is very good continuous wise attention, concentration and with no gaps in the mindfulness. This continuous mindfulness can only be attained during very high-level meditative experience. I read that the speed of Citta (consciousness) arising, abide and cease is extremely swift. Commentators say that in the time taken by the twinkling of an eye or a flash of lightning, there are more than a billion consciousnesses. A flash of lightning is around one hundredth of a second in duration and a thought-moment is at least one hundred billionth of a second, therefore a Citta takes about a billionth of a second to function. Since a citta functions so fast, it must be quite an incredible ability to be able to experience this citta and cetasika arising and ceasing at this very moment. I personally have not seen any citta arising. Are you able to observe citta and cetasika in this moment? I often hear Abhidhammikas say they know and understand this arising and passing away of citta at this very moment, do you know what is the method that they use to observe it? ------------------- Nina: I quite agree. The Expositor, Co to the first book of the Abhidhamma also warns about the wrong way of study of the Abhidhamma. This can lead to madness. Elaine: In my opinion, reading the Abhidhamma can become dangerous, it is like playing with fire. We have to use fire carefully and similarly we have to use Abhidhamma knowledge carefully too. ------------ Nina: I think that it is good to keep in mind the general principles like: citta, cetasika and rupa in daily life. One can develop more understanding of these realities as they appear in daily life. Elaine: Can you please explain how you develop the understanding of these realities as they appear in daily life? What are the realities that you experience? Can you please give an example? ------------------- N: The Buddha showed the way: development of right understanding so that there will be less ignorance. Tep explained about the anusayas or latent tendencies. ....They are accumulated in each citta and I remembered that you found that this may seem like a store consciousness. …..A talent is not something static, it develops. Elaine: You are right, it is possible to develop abilities, that is why we can develop our mind until it is totally free from all latent taints and defilements. This mental development may take many, many aeons, but I believe it is attainable. -------------------- Nina: Some people are born musical, and that stems from past lives, where else could it come from? Elaine: You are right, there are old kamma that are brought over from past lives. We also make new kamma every moment in this present life - every action, every word, and every thought creates new kamma. The most important thing is the intention. If our intention is to cause no harm, to do good, and to purify our mind, I think we are following our Buddha’s teachings. I think being a Buddhist does not have to be too complicated. A person does not have to understand anatta to do dana. Doing dana is a universal wholesomeness that is recognized in every religion. :-)) #78649 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (36) nilovg Dear Connie, Op 14-nov-2007, om 14:15 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > As we read, "without truthfulness, virtue, etc., is impossible." > This means that without truthfulness, one does not speak the truth, > acts with deception, and all one's deeds are crooked. Without > truthfulness, one cannot observe siila and there is no practice in > accordance with one's vows. Vow, pa.ti~n~naa, means being steadfast > in truthfulness ------- N: There is something crooked when one performs daana or is helping someone while one hopes for appreciation of his deeds, hopes to acquire something for himself. This is not sincere. Then kusala is not a perfection. Sati and pa~n~naa are essential to see one's intention for what it is. Nina. #78650 From: han tun Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (36) hantun1 Dear Connie, Nina, Sarah and All, The Text: “when we look down upon someone who is evil or commits bad deeds, we have akusala citta; our citta is similar to the citta of an evil person, because we have contempt for him.” Han: It is a good reminder for me. If I see a monk who is not behaving according to Vinaya training rules, and if I look down upon him, or if I discuss with my friend about it, I and my friend will be accumulating akusala cittas (and hence akusala kammas) for nothing. --------------------- The Text: “When we notice someone else's kusala and we rejoice in it, we are truthful, we are sincere in our appreciation of his kusala. We may not be able to perform a good deed ourselves, but we can appreciate someone else's kusala. If we do not appreciate this, the citta is akusala” Han: I did not realize that if I do not appreciate another person’s kusala, the citta is akusala. I had thought if I do not appreciate it, it might be neutral. Now I know that it is akusala. This is also a good reminder for me. Thank you Connie, for your presentations. With metta and respect, Han #78651 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) lbidd2 Hi Sarah, When you feel sad (mental feeling) can you detect a feeling apart from the physical feeling sensations? When you touch something very hot is the feeling of pain in some sense physical? When you taste delicious food is the pleasant feeling that arises _not_ dependent on tasting and _not_ the decisive support condition for craving? When the doctor asks you, "where does it hurt?", do you say, "in my mind"? Larry #78652 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (36) dcwijeratna Dear Han, I picked up this from a post of yours. "Han: I did not realize that if I do not appreciate another person¢s kusala, the citta is akusala. I had thought if I do not appreciate it, it might be neutral. Now I know that it is akusala. This is also a good reminder for me." My understanding of the above is slightly different. Thought I would present it to you for your consideration. This is how I understand your passage. 1. A person has kusala (= another person's kusala) 2. You do not appreciate it 3. You could (i) appreciate it = kusala, (ii) not appreciate it = akusala, or (iii) be neutral (You say this in the second sentence). 4. In "Now I know that it is akusala" you equate (ii) akusala with (iii) neutral. 5. That step I don't understand. Why you equate (ii) and (iii). 6. It is against my experience, as well as your experience as you have stated in (3). 7. When you do so we have only two reactions to kusala (1). That is what I cannot understand. 8. I now here the Bells in the temple. I know that some poeple are worshipping at the temple. I am neutral about it. Do I collect akusala. If so akusala collected by me in the past, must be so much I don't stand a chance of getting out of samsara. I must surely be heading straight for hell. 9. Now suppose I appreciate it. Then it is kusala. I can do so throughtout the day. I should be so full of kusala, I should be heading straight for nibbaana. 10. Now I am fully confused, perplexed. These questions arise in my mind, a mind of a normal human being, to which I cannot find an answer, on reading your statement I quoted above. I present these things to you as a friend (within the meaning of kalyaa.namittataa) in the hope whether they can be resolved? Needless to say, not for argument. With lots of mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78653 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:34 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Q. to Elaine. philofillet Hi Elaine > I think being a Buddhist does not have to be too complicated. A person does not have to understand anatta to do dana. Doing dana is a universal wholesomeness that is recognized in every religion. :-)) Get ready, Ken is going to suggest that you go and become a Christian! I hope you are able to resist the temptation...haha. (I say that with affection for Ken.) Seriously, I think it's good that people point out that it is the teaching of anatta and other teachings that separate the Buddha's way from other religions. But I think there is an underappreciation of the fact that no other religion teaches dana and morality in as deep and sophisticated way as the Buddha does. In no other religion does a lifestyle well-established in dana and morality involve mental training that provides the conditions that help to clear the way for deeper, more profoundly liberating wisdom. Failing to appreciate that even without a deep understanding of anatta, the Buddha's way of morality is superior to that of Christianity, say, is failing to appreciate how His teaching is good in the beginning, in the middle, and the end, in my opinion. It is underappreciating The Buddha as the greatest teacher. Metta, Phil #78654 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:36 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 buddhistmedi... Hi friend Dieter, - I gladly inform you that from now you'll see me no more in any discussion forum with KenH. My (friendly) reason is that he already kicked me out of the discussion room. >KenH (#78620): >I try not to have unreasonable expectations. Perhaps I can occasionally help someone who is being led astray unwittingly by Bhikkhu Thanissaro's heterodoxy. However, if after becoming aware of the facts, someone should insist BT is right and the rest of the world's Buddhist teachers are wrong then so be it. There is only so much I can do. T: Good for me. ;-)) Tep === #78655 From: han tun Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (36) hantun1 Dear Friend DC, My dear friend DC, As you were confused and perplexed on reading my post, I am also confused and perplexed by reading your post. I made a simple and straight-forward statement. But you analyzed it very critically and you expect me to come up with answers to your questions. I wanted to oblige you (within the meaning of kalyaa.namittataa), but I do not know how to answer your questions. It may be because I do not have that kind of analytical knowledge that you possess. I am sorry. Respectfully, Han #78656 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:00 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (36) philofillet Hi Han and all > Han: It is a good reminder for me. If I see a monk who > is not behaving according to Vinaya training rules, > and if I look down upon him, or if I discuss with my > friend about it, I and my friend will be accumulating > akusala cittas (and hence akusala kammas) for nothing. "How readily we consume the dosa and lobha of others!" I read that somewhere. I also like to think in terms of not pouring gas on that fire of greed, hatred and delusion that is always burning... Personally, at this point, I don't worry too much if there is the idea of being a person who doesn't add to the fire, who has a very small little pacifying impact in the world. And I don't worry too much if there is any self-view involved in thinking that this might contribute to a safer rebirth. But as DC reminded me yesterday, best to not be comfortable with self-view. Still, better to abstain from hatred whether self-view is involved or not, I think. (That might change.) Metta, Phil #78657 From: han tun Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] to Han: Realities and Concepts (3) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much. It is very clear now. Respectfully, Han #78658 From: han tun Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (36) hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your post. --- Phil wrote: "How readily we consume the dosa and lobha of others!" I read that somewhere. I also like to think in terms of not pouring gas on that fire of greed, hatred and delusion that is always burning... Personally, at this point, I don't worry too much if there is the idea of being a person who doesn't add to the fire, who has a very small little pacifying impact in the world. And I don't worry too much if there is any self-view involved in thinking that this might contribute to a safer rebirth. But as DC reminded me yesterday, best to not be comfortable with self-view. Still, better to abstain from hatred whether self-view is involved or not, I think. (That might change.) ------------------------------ Han: I also do not worry if there is the idea of being a person, or if there is any self-view involved. And I agree with you that it is better to abstain from hatred whether self-view is involved or not. Respectfully, Han #78659 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:29 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 kenhowardau Hi Dieter, I'm not sure I understand the simile given below: -------------- KH >: > I see the suttas as the really difficult (calculus) part of the course and the Abhidhamma as the gentle introduction. > > D: > that is an important point of different view ..and certainly a cause of frequent misunderstandings.. is Ven. Nyanaponika' s conclusion in ' Philosophy of Abhidhamma' close to your point ?: "As to the relation of the teachings of the Abhidhamma to those of the Sutta Pitaka, two very apt comparisons given in a conversation by the late Venerable Pelene Vajiranana, Maha-Nayakathera of Vajirarama, Colombo, may be added, in conclusion: The Abhidhamma is like a powerful magnifying-glass, but the understanding gained from the Suttas is the eye itself, which performs the act of seeing. Again, the Abhidhamma is like a medicine container with a label giving an exact analysis of the medicine; but the knowledge gained from the Suttas is the medicine itself which alone is able to cure the illness and its symptoms, namely craving rooted in ignorance, and the suffering caused by it." It seems to me - using above simile- that you would only take the medicine when knowing the exact ingredients before.. ------------------- Suttas are not magic spells that we hear and automatically become enlightened. (I know you will agree with that.) They need to be thoroughly understood. That usually entails finding someone who can explain them to us. Then we need to consider and discuss what we have heard, over and over again. Gradually, in this way, understanding will grow. Every sutta needs to be understood in the context of the Dhamma as a whole. Many (though not all) are in conventional language. And so they will need to be explained in paramattha (Abhidhamma) language. Sometimes, a student may not see how a particular sutta relates to the dhammas that are arising now. In that case he has missed the whole point. He needs to consider the sutta again, from a fresh angle. It's a very difficult business. Sutta study should never be attempted without help. ------------------------------- D: > Hence, considering the history/legend that the Buddha preached the Abhidhamma to the devas for three months without interruption in order to provide a whole picture and that he advised only his main disciple about details , not to talk about that the Abh . is usually understood as the higher teaching , the gentle introduction seems to me like a pre- study of pharmacology before applying the pills ... -------------------------------- Sariputta taught his students the Abhidhamma. And I am sure they, in turn, taught it to their students. ------------------ > > KH: I think the ideal introduction to Buddhism is via the Abhidhamma. . > D: for me like putting the cart before the horse..and you will maintain that'sjust the case when the suttas are first ;-) ... an issue of individual preferences? ------------------- The wiser the student the less need for detailed explanations. Someone like me needs to start with the most basic of instructions. For example, I had to learn (from my friends at DSG) the difference between concepts and realities. Then, for the first time, I could see a truly unique and profound meaning in the suttas. Before that, my version of Buddhism wasn't much different from the conventional religions I had so strongly rejected. Of course, I wouldn't have admitted that at the time. :-) ----------------------- <. . .> D: >And many of those who are interested , incl. myself ,may ponder about the usefulness of deeper studies , missing still the point for practical (path) application...besides some confusing issues..but perhaps we will come to a closer understanding by further discussion ----------------------- "Practical path application," yes, that is what it's all about! According to my understanding, practical path application is a matter of conditioned dhammas. Ultimately, everything is a matter of conditioned dhammas. Ken H #78660 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:59 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (36) .. Beyond Abstention ... buddhistmedi... Hi Phil & Han & DC, - Good --> better -->best ? >Phil: But as DC reminded me > yesterday, best to not be comfortable with self-view. > Still, better to abstain from hatred whether self-view > is involved or not, I think. (That might change.) > > ------------------------------ > Han: I also do not worry if there is the idea of being a person, or if there is any self-view involved. And I agree with you that it is better to abstain from hatred whether self-view is involved or not. T: Then it must be best to go beyond abstention as follows. " In the case of killing living things abandoning is virtue, abstention is virtue, volition is virtue, restraint is virtue, non- transgression is virtue. Such virtues lead to non-remorse cognizance, to gladness, to happiness, to tranquillity, to joy, to repetition, to development, to making much of, to embellishment, to the requisite [for concentration], to the equipment [of concentration], to perfection, to complete dispassion, to fading away of greed, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to nibbana..." Patism. I, 265 (Five Kinds of Virtues) Tep === #78661 From: Elaine Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (36) shennieca Hi Han, (and DC), all, I don’t understand why is it that "if a person do not appreciate another person’s kusala, the citta is akusala". If we don’t rejoice in another person's wholesomeness, we get unwholesome citta and kamma instead? This is the first time I hear anything like that. I understand DC's logic about the temple bell. In the Brahmavihara sutta - Metta, Karuna, Mudita and Upekkha are virtues, when cultivate endlessly without limits are wholesome and are regarded as powerful antidotes to negative mental states, for e.g. greed, anger, pride, etc. Metta is loving-kindness towards all beings. It is the hope that a person will be well. Loving-kindness is the wish that all sentient beings, without any exception, be happy. Karuna is compassion. It is the hope that a person's sufferings will diminish. Compassion is the wish for all sentient beings to be free from suffering. Mudita is altruistic joy in the accomplishments of a person, oneself or others. Sympathetic joy is the wholesome attitude of rejoicing in the happiness and virtues of all sentient beings. Upekkha is equanimity. It is learning to accept loss and gain, praise and blame, success and failure with detachment, equally, for oneself and for others. Equanimity means not to distinguish between friend, enemy or stranger, but regard every sentient being as equal. It is a clear-minded tranquil state of mind, not overpowered by delusions, mental dullness or agitation. If we don't rejoice in another person's kusala, I don't think we get akusala citta though, we can have upekkha feeling towards that person and upekkha is not an akusala citta. The word 'rejoice' and 'appreciate' are different in meaning. Unless, if a person has done something good for us, and we don't appreciate his/her kindness, then we get akusala kamma. That, I can agree. In your e-m, is it rejoicing or appreciating? It is ok, take your time to reply (((HUGS))). :-)) Warmest regards & with mettaa, Elaine #78662 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:40 pm Subject: Re: Abhidhamma Q. to Elaine. philofillet Hi Elaine I just had a look at this that I posted earlier. > Failing to appreciate that even without a deep understanding of > anatta, the Buddha's way of morality is superior to that of > Christianity, say, is failing to appreciate how His teaching is good > in the beginning, in the middle, and the end, in my opinion. It is > underappreciating The Buddha as the greatest teacher. I hope it's clear that I was referring to folks who say "other religions teach morality too", not you. Not that it really matters, eh? Metta, Phil #78663 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Relations Among Rupas/Jon jonoabb Hi Howard Apologies for the delayed reply. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 11/7/2007 8:11:14 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi Howard > > I follow your line of reasoning, and it is one you have mentioned before. > > ... > > Would you mind indicating which of these you see as being the problem. > > Thanks. > > Jon > > > ================================== > Perhaps the post I just mailed off to KenH will serve to clarify my > "problem", Jon. Yes and no ;-)) But I think the discussion has move on quite a bit since this message of yours. You seem to be more comfortable with the general idea. Also, Sarah's recent post to you gives some textual material on the point. So I have nothing further to add at the moment. Jon #78664 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] TSG sarahprocter... Hi TSGer Connie, (Ven Aggacitta, Antony W and all), --- L G SAGE wrote: > right... trifles. mere nothings. nevertheless, play on: ... S: I see you're delving into the Victorian PTS journals these days... .... > your 5-aggregates as objects of clinging subscriber, and erstwhile -?- > acquaintance with aspirations, .... S: Now you're beginning to sound like our Victorian Charles D. who knew a thing or two about trifles and through his D.C. wrote in fact that "trifles make the sum of life." ... S: Now for my gem (thanks to Antony W who gave us the book and Ven Aggacitta who gave us the topic of 'Astral Travel' and 'Out of Body Experiences' and yourself for recent celestial fantasies). Please pause to contemplate on the trifles in the following extract from "Great Disciples of the Buddha" by Nyanaponika Thera & Hellmuth Hecker, ch 2, MahaaMoggallaana: Master of Psychic Powers: [*Don't attempt to replicate the following in your home or work-place laboratory!*] "Travel by "mind-made body" ("Astral Travel") "Just as a person may bend his stretched arm or stretch his bent arm," so quickly was Moggallana able to depart bodily from the human world and reappear in a celestial realm. Repeatedly he made use of this capacity for instructing other beings and looking after the affairs of the Order. Thus he taught the Gods of the Thirty-three the Factors of stream-entry, or tested Sakka, King of Gods, whether he had understood the teaching about the extinction of craving (Majjh, 37). Once when the Buddha was preaching for three months in one of the heavenly worlds, Moggallana appeared in that heaven and informed the Master of happenings in the Order, asking him for instructions (Jat, 483E). He visited not only the gods of the Sense-sphere, but also those of the Brahma world. <...> "Telekinesis (Supernormal locomotion) Moggallana also had mastery over, what appears to be solid matter. Once there were monks staying at a monastery, who were negligent and of distracted minds, busying themselves too much with material trifles. Learning of this, the Buddha asked Moggallana to shake their excessive faith in materiality by a supernormal feat and to stir them on to renewed and serious effort. In response to the Buddha's request, Moggallana pushed the building with his big toe, so that the entire monastery, called "The Terrace of Migara's Mother," shook and trembled as if there was an earthquake. By this experience the monks were so deeply stirred that they became again receptive when the Buddha instructed them, explaining the four Roads to Power (iddhipada), from which Moggallana's great supernormal prowess derived (Samy, 51, 14*; Jat. 299E). " .... S: Let's not wait for an earthquake to shake us out of our material trifles or think that our mundane and trifling experiences resemble those of the Buddha and his great disciples, however strange or weird they may be! Metta, Sarah *This sutta can be found in SN, Iddhipaadasa.myutta, 51:14, Moggallaana, Bodhi, or http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta5/50-Iddhipa\ da-Samyutta/02-Pasadakampanavaggo-e.html ============ #78665 From: Elaine Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Q. to Elaine. shennieca Hi Phil, all, Thank you for your e-m. I’d like to present my understanding of dana, generosity. Dana is a central Buddhist teaching and its importance has been under-estimated. Why is dana important? It is because the understanding of mundane anatta begins with understanding the importance and significance of dana. The real supra-mundane understanding of anatta begins with namarupa pariccheda nana (knowledge that distinguish mental and physical states). Why does the mundane understanding of anatta begin from dana? It is because mundane anatta means understanding and letting go of the sense of ‘me’ and ‘mine’. If we can’t even begin to let go and share some of our material goods with others, how can we let go of our sense of ‘self’? Ajahn Thanissaro’s teacher, Ajahn Lee once said, the Buddha taught us only one thing through out his teachings- he taught us generosity. By learning how to be generous, by letting go of the material goods that we have, we will slowly, and eventually learn to let go of the sense of ‘self’, and the attachment to ‘self’. And this non-attachment to self Is the mundane not-self, it is anatta, and that is why by doing dana, we have already begun to learn and know a little bit about anatta. This is all I know about Buddhism, that doing dana is the first step towards understanding anatta. I truly believe that Christians who do not know about anatta, but who are generous will have a good rebirth in deva realms. There is a story about Sakka, the King of Devas. A long, long time ago, Sakka was a born as man named Magha. At that time, there were no Buddha sasana on earth. Magha was a very generous man, he built roads and rest houses for tired travelers and he helped his villagers with the irrigation of the fields and etc. etc. Because of his generosity, when he died, he was reborn as the King of Devas and he lived many, many aeons in the Deva realm. Magha didn’t know about anatta then because there was no Buddha sasana. With his genuine generosity, he got a good rebirth, as the King of the Devas. So, I really do believe that Christians, Musslims, Hindus, Taoists will go to heavenly realms if they do lots of dana. Anatta is not a pre-requisite to do dana. Every time a dana is done, there is already wholesome thoughts in the mind. A Buddhist’s kusala citta and a non-Buddhist’s kusala citta are the same. Kusala citta and kusala kamma does not discriminate between religions. There are also many people who do dana, just to show off their wealth, they want to make sure they have their names announced if they donate money to charities and this becomes akusala. There is another story about a Deva who didn’t get to enjoy his heavenly palace because he once did dana with some unwholesome thoughts. But because he did actually do the act of giving, he was reborn in heaven but he cannot enjoy the heavenly pleasures there. I cannot provide the sutta or commentary for this because it is a dhamma talk that I heard a long time ago. Sorry for this long post. I hope it is not too preachy. Thank you. Warmest regards, Elaine #78666 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (70) sarahprocter... Hi Connie & Phil, And if the spice were to begin to go out of life, wouldn't that be a good trade for just a little less madness? Great quotes in #78585, extracts for those who skip long posts: --- L G SAGE wrote: > verse: > 359. "Ummaadanaa ullapanaa, kaamaa cittappamaathino; > sattaana.m sa.mkilesaaya, khippa.m maarena o.d.dita.m. > 357. Sensual pleasures are maddening, deceiving, agitating the mind, a > net spread out by Maara for the defilement of creatures. ***** > txt: > Ummaadanaati vipari.naamadhammaana.m viyogavasena sokummaadakaraa, > va.d.dhiyaa vaa uparuuparimadaavahaa. Ullapanaati "aho sukha.m aho > sukhan"ti uddha.m uddha.m lapaapanakaa. > 357. Maddening (ummaadanaa) means: being the cause of the madness of > grief (sok'-ummaada-karaa) because of separation from phenomena that > change, or through the increase of the production of greater and greater > madness (uparuupari-madaavahaa). Deceiving (ullapanaa) means: causing > [people] to say more and more, "Oh, the happiness! Oh, the happiness!" ***** > txt: > Cittappamaathinoti pari.laahuppaadanaadinaa sampati aayati~nca cittassa > pamathanasiilaa. > Agitating the mind (citta-ppamaathino) means: having the characterist of > agitation of the mind (cittassa pamathana-sila) both now and in the > future through producing a burning fever, etc. <...> ***** S: And finally... >Appassaadaati > satthadhaaraagatamadhubindu viya parittassaadaa. Ra.nakaraati > saaraagaadisa.mva.d.dhakaa. Sukkapakkhavisosanaati sattaana.m > anavajjako.t.thaasassa vinaasakaa. >They give little enjoyment > (app'-assaadaa) means: they give limited enjoyment (paritt'-assaadaa) > like a drop of honey on a razor's edge. They produce desire means: they > increase passion, etc. Drying up the virtuous party means: causing the > destruction of the irreproachable group of beings. ***** S: So let's not crave the spice when there's sanity on offer:-). Metta, Sarah ======== #78667 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (36) dcwijeratna My friend Han, I am so sorry. The desired effect of my writing in that style has backfired. I was trying to protect you because you are my friend. I could have written one sentence -- the advice you have recieved was adhamma. But I wanted to clearly explain. All the questions were merely rhetoric. Not for you to answer. Elaine has now explained what I wanted to say beautifully. So the matter is now closed. Please forget about it--I mean my message. You are my friend Han. Not just a friend, but a highly respected friend. Few people have it in their character to do what you have done. Your respectfully, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78668 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (36) hantun1 Dear friends DC and Elaine, Dear DC, I am very sorry. I apologize. I realize your cetana to protect me. But please do not worry about me. Whatever I write, it is based on the text I am reading. It doesn’t mean that I will follow that idea. I am also greatly honoured and very glad to read your warm note saying that I am your friend, and not just a friend, but a highly respected friend. Please forgive me for insulting your cetana. I also consider you as a very good and learned Dhamma scholar and I consider myself lucky to have a friend like you. Dear Elaine, the book was written by Khun Sujin. It was translated by Nina. It was presented by Connie. In my post I did not pick on Connie. I wrote the *Text:* said so and so. I also ask questions to Nina if I have any doubts. If you have different opinion, if you just state your opinion (like you have done just now), I will learn from you and I will be grateful to you. My personal opinion will be the least useful in this case. With metta and respect, Han #78669 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) jonoabb Hi Dieter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Jon , KO and others, > ... > D: there are certainly temporary moments experienced as no self, > absence of self. > But I understand anatta to be lasting detachment ( liberated > from the Khanda attachment, i.e. that is I ,that is mine ) as a > result of insight development. So only here anatta becomes > a fact/law. Up to that state the delusion I (that is my self) > still produces action (kamma), even there may be no > belief /doubt in the 'producer'. I think we agree on the basics, namely (a) that anatta as a characteristic of conditioned dhammas gradually becomes known as insight is developed, and (b) that the characteristic of anatta is not *fully* penetrated until arahantship is attained. (As I understand it, the situation is the same regarding the other 2 characteristics of conditioned dhammas: anicca and dukkha.) So taking your earlier statement that "up to the state of arahantship anatta is a (hypo) thesis", I would say that prior to arahantship the characteristic anatta is partly known, but is fully known only at arahantship. Have I addressed the point you wished to make? > When now e.g. some people , being wordlings, talk about our > reality, this existence here and now , telling other people that in > fact there is no self, no persons talking, they take the Arahant > position, without having any own base of that perfect view > (samma ditthi). > I suppose here a source of frequent disputes. Well that would depend on whether they were simply explaining the teachings as they understood them (at an intellectual level) to be, or were claiming to speak from personal experience/knowledge. I don't see any problem with the former (as long as the comments are not 'personal' to the recipient -- perhaps there is a problem here with the way it comes across some times). > D: The Buddha requested his disciples to undergo the three fold > Path training of moral - meditation and wisdom ( sila - samadhi - > panna ) , the development of each part to become the support of the > next . This is the described way to develop insight//panna. > And by the training the conditions for insight are established. > Of course there is a multitude of approaches , depending on > accumulations, but in general the standard is repeated in the > suttas again and again. > Frankly speaking I do not understand why - which seems to me an ' > Abhidhammika ' point of view - this teaching is not respected/ > accepted. There may have been a misunderstanding here. I don't think there was anything in my earlier comment suggesting a lack of respect for the 3- fold training of sila, samadhi and panna. What I was saying is that as insight/panna is developed (with the 5 khandhas as object), the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta become clearer and clearer. That is to say, there is no special and *separate* training set down for developing the panna that knows the characteristic of anatta in particular. > As I mentioned there are plenty of canonical sources .. e.g. > A.N.III 82 (ff) > ... > The sequence of path elements 3,4,5 for sila , 6,7,8 for samadhi > and 1,2 for panna is the norm. Yes, agreed. > J: (D. When I remember correctly , Khun Sujin mentioned that Sutta > and Abhidhamma should not be considered as two separate entities but > complementary to eachother. ) > Yes, I think she would say there is only 'Dhamma', and that the 3 > pitakas are all talking about the same Dhamma. > > D: I think she was quoted to have said 'complementary ' and that > is different in meaning from what you mention , isn't it? I think the 2 statements are, well, complementary ;-)), this is to say: - There is only the 'Dhamma', and all 3 pitakas are talking about the same Dhamma, and - The Sutta and Abhidhamma pitakas should not be considered as separate entities but as complementary to each other. > D: quotation does not necessarily mean, that the sutta is has been > read and contemplated, does it? ;-) Quite right ;-)) > Hence my proposal again in line with a complementary approach: > > For the benefit of a complete picture , I believe our > 'Abhidhammika' friends' would be well advised not to neglect the > 'conventional ' teaching . Agreed that no-one should neglect the teaching contained in the suttas. But views may differ on what that means ;-)) > with Metta Dieter Thanks for all your comments. Apologies for the delay in my reply. Jon #78670 From: "jonoabb" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:18 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Relations Among Rupas/Jon jonoabb Hi Tep --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Jon, - > > We have again peacefully closed another discussion. Quite an achievement. I think we should congratulate ourselves ;-)) > > > T: Does Nina's reply contradict with yours? > > > > > > > I don't think so, but I'll let Nina answer that. > > > > Always a pleasure to discuss with you, Tep. > > > > Jon > > > > Nina did and I like her answer for my Point #2. I'm glad that got sorted out. Jon #78671 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (36) nilovg Dear Han, DC, Elaine, perhaps this was not so clear in the text. When someone else is performing kusala, and I have jealousy for instance, or conceit, 'my' citta is akusala. But in case I am attending with kusala citta to another object, not to that person's kusala, it is obvious that 'my' citta is not akusala. It all depends on the moment, and akusala cittas are alternating with kusala cittas. Nina Op 15-nov-2007, om 2:15 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven: > Han: I did not realize that if I do not appreciate > another person¢s kusala, the citta is akusala. I had > thought if I do not appreciate it, it might be > neutral. Now I know that it is akusala. This is also a > good reminder for me. #78672 From: han tun Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (36) hantun1 Dear Nina (Elaine, DC, Tep, Phil), I like your explanation and I agree with you completely. Respectfully, Han #78673 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:53 am Subject: Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 203, 204, 205, and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga Ch XVII, 203, 204, 205 Intro: In the following sections it is explained that naama/ruupa conditions the sixfold base. The sa.laayatana, the six aayatanas that are internal are referred to here. These aayatanas are: the aayatana of the eyesense, and the other senses, and the sixth which is manaayatana, mind-base, including all cittas. When objects impinge on the senses, there are conditions for the arising of cittas that experience these objects. It is necessary for a correct understanding of the following sections to review the section of Vis. 187. As we have learnt, the first link of the Dependent Origination is: ignorance conditions vi~n~naa.na which is here the vipaakacitta that is rebirth-consciousness. The second link is: vi~n~naa.na conditions naama/ruupa. Naama are the cetasikas accompanying vi~n~naa.na which are also vipaaka. The Tiika mentions that these are the three naama-khandhas. These include feeling, sa~n~naa and the khandha of formations. Ruupa referred to here are the ruupas produced by kamma arising at the same time as vi~n~naa.na. These ruupas are conditioned by vi~n~naa.na in different ways. Section 187 speaks about the dhammas that are conditioned by kamma and vi~n~naa.na which are grouped as threefold: as just naama, as just ruupa and as the combination naama-ruupa. As we read in the Vis 187: ------------ N: With regard to: < the method that allows any one part to represent any remaining one of its kind>, this means: . The following sections of the Visuddhimagga refer to this threefold grouping with examples. Section 203, gives a long explanation of the term < the method of using an all-embracing term to include its component parts, ekadesa-saruupekasesanaya.> This refers here to the link: naama/ruupa conditions the sixfold base. The sixfold base, sa.laayatana' is an all-embracing term, and not all of the aayatanas are conditioned by naama/ruupa in every case. Thus, this condition is to be applied as the case demands. For example, at the moment of rebirth-consciousness in the human plane, the five sense-bases are not complete. At that moment kamma produces only the bodysense. Whereas in the case of spontaneous rebirth in the deva planes, the five senses are complete. ---------- [(v) The Sixfold Base] Text Vis. 203: As to the clause 'With mentality-materiality as condition, the sixfold base': Three aggregates are 'mind'; the basis, Primaries, and the rest are 'matter': And while all that conditions this A part can represent the rest. Text Vis. 204: In the case of the mentality-materiality that is here a condition for the sixfold base, mentality is the three aggregates beginning with feeling, while materiality should be understood as that included in one's own continuity stated thus 'primaries and the rest are "matter" ', that is to say, the four primaries, six physical bases, and life faculty, [since they are conditioning factors] invariably. -------- N: Mentality, naama, are the cetasikas accompanying vi~n~naa.na. Matter, ruupa, includes here the six physical bases, vatthus, namely, the sense-bases and the heart-base, that are produced by kamma. They arise in groups, kalapas. The four great Elements and the other four ruupas that are together the eight inseparable ruupas are always included in each kalapa. Moreover, each group that is produced by kamma also includes the ruupa that is life-faculty, jiivitindriya. ------- Text Vis.: But this mentality and this materiality and this mentality- materiality, each one representing the rest as 'mentality- materiality', should be understood as a condition for the sixfold base consisting of the sixth base and the sixfold base each one representing the rest as the 'sixfold base'. Why? Because in the immaterial becoming there is only mentality as a condition, and that is a condition only for the sixth base, [namely, the mind base,] not for any other. For it is said in the Vibha"nga, 'With mentality as condition, the sixth base' (Vbh. 179). -------- N: Here it has been explained that the link: naama/ruupa conditions the six bases should be seen to operate as the case demands. An example is given that not all aayatanas are conditioned dhammas in every case. In the planes where there is only naama, the aruupa- brahma planes, there is only naama as conditoning factor and this conditions only the aayatana that is naama: the mind-base, which includes citta. ******* Text Vis. 205. Here it may be asked: 'But how is it to be known that mentality-materiality is a condition for the sixfold base?'. Because the latter exists when mentality-materiality exists. For a given base exists when a given kind of mentality-materiality exists, not otherwise. But the way in which the one comes to exist when the other does will be explained below in the section dealing with how it is a condition. -------- N: As to the expression ‘ the one comes to exist when the other does’ (tabbhaavabhaavitaa), the Tiika adds that when a certain naama or ruupa is absent, a certain aayatana does not occur. We read in the Co. to the ‘Topics of Abhidhamma’ (p 287): The writers of Abhidhamma Summaries combine the two methods, this Co. adds. The method of the Pa.t.thaana can be applied to the Dependent Origination. --------- Text Vis. : Therefore: A wise man should contrive to tell Which one conditions which, and how, At rebirth and in life as well; [The explanation follows now.] --------- Conclusion: Since ignorance conditions rebirth-consciousness, rebirth- consciousness conditions naama/ruupa, and naama/ruupa conditions the sixfold aayatanas, we have to continue experiencing objects through the six dooways. It is not our choice what object is experienced through which doorway. There are merely naama and ruupa arising because of their appropriate conditions. ******** Nina. #78674 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Realities and Concepts (1) ... Citta and We... nilovg Hi Tep, this is a post that I did not answer yet, but I am loosing the threat somewhat. I may not answer in a satisfactory way. Op 11-nov-2007, om 16:00 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > >N: The word thought I would rather use for the concept that is the > object of thinking; and the word thinking for the action. > > T: Yes, thinking is an action, and what we think is a thought. But a > past thought, ours or other person's, may become an object of our > thinking too. --------- N: Yes, citta can have as its object anything, real or not, present or past, conditioned or unconditioned. -------- > T: When the Buddha talked about 'mano' and 'dhamma' > (ideas) in AN 10.60 ['the intellect is not-self, ideas are not- > self.'] I understand the 'dhamma' can be anything that the mind > thinks of, or takes as a 'mind object'. -------- N: Mano can stand here for manaayatana, all cittas. And dhamma for dhammaayatana, which are cetasikas, subtle ruupas and nibbaana. Not concepts. But I do not know the Pali of this text. Dhammaarama.na, also translated as mental object or mind object, includes concepts. Thus we have to be careful here. --------- > T: Why do you limit the 'object > of thinking' to be a concept that does not have the ti-lakkhana? > Isn't a mind object a sankhara, and isn't sankhara any dhamma that is > formed by the coming together of other dhammas? ------ N: Here we have the term mind object again. See above. When it is a conditioned paramattha dhamma (thus not nibbaana) it can be called sankhaara dhamma. Concept cannot. Nina. #78675 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] dr han tun, sarah and nina nilovg Dear Dr Manish, you wrote such a kind post, thank you. Indeed, I may have misunderstood whta you wrote about nirodha samaapatti. Op 7-nov-2007, om 22:17 heeft vipassana_infonet het volgende geschreven: > I may send just a few question/s and/or short post/s, as and when > required, as you have suggested. at my end, I am overwhelmed with lot > of study work and so I am taking time to RE-start my interaction again > with you and dr han, afresh. --------- N: I think you explained this very well: I shall just wait for your next post. With appreciation, Nina. #78676 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:50 am Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) sukinderpal Dear Han, DC and Phil, > Thank you very much for your kind note. > I have noted your important points. I started writing that post intending it to be short and one of agreement. But I had just copy-pasted DSG posts for printing and while doing so saw a little of DC and Phil's exchange and this conditioned some irritation. This is why I couldn't help expressing myself there in the last moment, and the reason I also forgot to put their names in the address. But now that I have opened my mouth, allow me to comment further. Also please take this as being addressed more to DC and Phil than to you, Han. It is true that all levels of kusala support each other, such that for example, `saddha' towards kusala in general may be accumulated. The Teachings on the Parami in fact clearly points to how certain kusala dhammas are interrelated in a way that without any one of these being developed, the chances of any of the others being so is minimal. Also I understand that Dana is a relatively easy form of kusala to encourage as compared to Sila and that both these if not appreciated, little chance is there that Panna is going to be developed. However this is different to saying that one must start with Dana or Sila as a "practice". One has heard the Dhamma and maintains an interest in it, this itself says much about the accumulation of past kusala kamma. It is not by chance that we get to hear the Teachings, there must have been much good done in past lives. Moreover, those who suggest the need to put aside the development of Right Understanding and instead to pay attention to other forms of kusala, like Dana and sila, aren't they in fact saying that they *understand* the causes and conditions which lead to the goal? What does it mean to on the one hand be saying that one is not ready for `deeper understanding' yet on the other to make a definitive statement about Dana, Sila and their relation to Bhavana? I think with Dhamma we are in fact introduced to and hence given the chance to experience for the first time, the kind of maha kusala citta that is accompanied by Panna. This begins with the level of "Pariyatti", for us, as it was for Ananda and Sariputta in the past. That Ven. Ananda and Ven. Sariputta were quick to `get it' is because of all the past accumulations of panna and all the other forms of kusala. That we don't get it, is not due to a need to first accumulate more Dana and Sila, but it is because the Panna that would have been developed alongside the other forms of kusala in our journey through samsara, this has not been accumulated enough. Outside of the sasana, it may be fine to encourage all other forms of kusala regardless of whether any self- view is involved. But surely not when the Dhamma has been proclaimed and heard?! The one "lesson / understanding" which any Savaka should get from hearing the Dhamma, is to begin slowly to understand that what we used to take for `self' are in reality only dhammas, hence anatta, rather than to continue trying to develop kusala with "self". We don't go about trying to *do more* kusala, but to gradually develop the understanding of all Akusala and Kusala dhammas as being conditioned realities, beyond the control of self. Otherwise what is the use of having heard the Buddha teach!! If there is any coming down to accept how little kusala and panna one has accumulated, this is reflected more accurately in terms of the need to develop more understanding at the level of hearing and considering. When it is seen instead that one must say, have more Dana or Sila or sit down to meditate, this seem to be due to a misunderstanding of what the Path is all about. For some of us "practice" is a result of developed panna which follows from much development at the intellectual level. But is this not somewhat a contradiction on the part of those holding the other position? On one hand one claims to first needing to accumulate Dana and Sila before any panna can arise, yet one thinks oneself ready to so called, `practice'!? I am not saying that Dana and Sila are to be ignored. What I am suggesting is that we view these in the *right* way, one which is possible only as a consequence of having heard the Dhamma. With this we can come slowly to get a better estimate of where we really are at. The concern about the need to develop more Dana and Sila comes after the fact whether any of this is really being understood for what it is, i.e. in light of conditionality and Anatta. And this as I said earlier, complements rather than hinders the progress of the other, which again points to the need *not* to be concerned about the past or future. On the other hand, when we are motivated by self to have `more' kusala, we are in fact never drawn to understanding the present moment. In fact in principle, we continue as "uninstructed worldlings" instead of as "kalyana putthujanas", to keep accumulating akusala as well as kusala, only in both cases, to adding more to samsara rather than beginning to break it down. This path taken involves identification (a form of conceiving) with what "we do" at the expense of understanding of there being only dhammas and coming to know their nature. This is already much longer than I wanted it to be. So I'll end here and await any comment from any of you. Metta, Sukin. > Dear Sukin, > > Thank you very much for your kind note. > I have noted your important points. > > > > However I firmly believe that it is through > "understanding" alone that the precepts themselves > will be understood and followed better and better. > #78677 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: > Hi Jon, Robert and all > > >> As I read the sutta, it means in effect that a follower of the >> teachings who: >> (a) is already adept at both mindfulness of in-&-out breathing >> (anapanasati, a form of samatha) and insight (vipassana), >> > > I'm afraid I'll be pointing this out a lot, but according to Vism, > at least, the above is incorrect. The "pursued and developed" must > start somewhere, and indeed, in the Samadhi section of Vism, there > is a reference to meditation techniques recommended to "the clansman > who is a beginner." A "beginner" cannot already be adept. Also, > there is a reference in Vism to the ringing of a gong. At first, the > sound of the gong is loud and clear, than becomes more subtle. Thus > it is with the breath. The AS contention that the breath is a > difficult meditation subject to master is true. But to say there is > no value for a beginner in seeking to pursue it is refuted by a > study of the Samadhi section of Vism. > The issue of the suitability of anapanasati for a "beginner" is a different issue to the one I mentioned. My point was that the teaching in the Anapanasati Sutta on attaining enlightenment with jhana as basis was addressed to those already firmly established in both anapanasati and mindfulness. I think a careful look at the sutta will confirm that. (I do not see the sutta as having anything to say on the issue you mention. For what it's worth, I agree that a person cannot become an adept without having at some earlier stage been a beginner.) Happy to discuss further if you're/anyone's interested. >> (b) has attained, or has the potential to attain, jhana with in-&- >> out breathing as object, and >> > > Here your point is more easily defensible, because there are > indeed 10 impediments to the meditation laid out in Vism, such > things as family ties and various social concerns, and illnesses and > I forget what else. (This is the answer to the homework question I > posed the other day.) I think AS and her students would be better > off using these clearly stated 10 impediments when trying (with good > intent, of course) to discourage meditators from unrealistic > expectations because saying that they must already be adept to begin > with is odd, I think. > I'm not aware of this last-mentioned having been said by anyone. > As is saying there must be detachment from the > beginning, or insight into not-self from the beginning. These cannot > be supported by the texts, as far as I know. (The oft posted "Right > View is the foreunner of all" sutta doesn't do this, because as we > know it is the mundane right view - belief in the principle of > kamma - that the Buddha stressed more often.) > If and when a moment of mundane insight occurs, then there is detachment from all akusala and ideas of self. In this sense, insight comes with detachment from the beginning. > Thanks for letting me pop in, and out again. I encourage all > students of AS to study the Samadhi section of Vism as well as the > Understanding section which follows it. > The whole of the Vism, including the Samadhi section, is great value. Please feel free to quote from it freely. Jon #78678 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) jonoabb Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > ================================ > Suppose we are about to embark on a series of actions, we then think it > over and realize that harm to others is likely to occur if we take these > actions, and so we chooses to refrain from them. That's the sort of thing I have > in mind. Thanks for the specific example. So the question is, do the conditions for the development of insight include the *conditions underlying intentional wholesome actions such as deliberately refraining from actions which we realise will likely harm others*. I think the best way I can answer that is to say that a person could be very considerate and well-behaved, but if he/she has not heard and understood the teaching that is peculiar to the Buddhas then there can be no insight development. > (You know, good actions taken by people who actually live in this > world. Just a drop of unwholesome sarcasm thrown in, Jon! LOL!) > I know you think I don't 'believe' in conventional wholesome actions, but it's not really like that at all ;-)) > Gotta rush - leaving for the hospital; for a routine colonoscopy. Glad to hear it went fine and the results are negative. I had the same procedure myself earlier this year - not a particularly pleasant way to spend a morning ;-((. Jon #78679 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Realities and Concepts (1) ... Citta and We... buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, - Because it directly addresses the questions I have asked, this reply is one of the best you have written, in my opinion. Yet there is still one unresolved issue left. My explanation is given after your message below. Thanks. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > this is a post that I did not answer yet, but I am loosing the threat > somewhat. I may not answer in a satisfactory way. > Op 11-nov-2007, om 16:00 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > >N: The word thought I would rather use for the concept that is the > > object of thinking; and the word thinking for the action. > > > > T: Yes, thinking is an action, and what we think is a thought. But a > > past thought, ours or other person's, may become an object of our > > thinking too. > --------- > N: Yes, citta can have as its object anything, real or not, present > or past, conditioned or unconditioned. > -------- > > T: When the Buddha talked about 'mano' and 'dhamma' > > (ideas) in AN 10.60 ['the intellect is not-self, ideas are not- > > self.'] I understand the 'dhamma' can be anything that the mind > > thinks of, or takes as a 'mind object'. > -------- > N: Mano can stand here for manaayatana, all cittas. And dhamma for > dhammaayatana, which are cetasikas, subtle ruupas and nibbaana. Not concepts. But I do not know the Pali of this text. Dhammaarama.na, also translated as mental object or mind object, includes concepts. Thus we have to be careful here. > --------- > > T: Why do you limit the 'object of thinking' to be a concept that does not have the ti-lakkhana? > > Isn't a mind object a sankhara, and isn't sankhara any dhamma that is formed by the coming together of other dhammas? > ------ > N: Here we have the term mind object again. See above. When it is a conditioned paramattha dhamma (thus not nibbaana) it can be called sankhaara dhamma. Concept cannot. > Nina. > ....................................... [N: Mano can stand here for manaayatana, all cittas. And dhamma for dhammaayatana, which are cetasikas, subtle ruupas and nibbaana. Not concepts. When it is a conditioned paramattha dhamma (thus not nibbaana) it can be called sankhaara dhamma. Concept cannot.] T: The issue is : I do not know if the Buddha ever defined "concepts" like you do. I do not know if He ever cautioned the disciples to be careful about concepts; or, if He ever said that concepts could not be mind-object for meditative purposes. Tep ==== #78680 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:36 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (70) nichiconn dear friends, Part 16 13. Viisatinipaato 5. Subhaakammaaradhiitutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 364. "Ima.m passatha dhamma.t.tha.m, subha.m kammaaradhiitara.m; aneja.m upasampajja, rukkhamuulamhi jhaayati. 362. See this Subhaa, the Smith's Daughter, standing [firm] in the Doctrine. Having entered the immovable [state] she meditates at the foot of a tree. txt: Dhamma.t.thanti ariyaphaladhamme .thita.m. Anejanti pa.tippassaddha ejataaya anejanti laddhanaama.m aggaphala.m. Upasampajjaati sampaadetvaa aggamaggaadhigamena adhigantvaa. Jhaayatiiti tameva phalajjhaana.m upanijjhaayati. 362. Standing [firm] in the Doctrine (dhamma-.t.tha.m) means: standing (.thita.m) [firm] in the Doctrine of the noble fruition states (ariya-phala-dhamme). The immovable [state] means: the highest fruition state which has received thename immovable because agitation is calmed. Having entered means: having obtained, having attained through attaining the highest path, etc. She meditates (jhaayati) means: she only miditates (upanijjhaayati) on that fruition of meditative absorption (phala-jjhaana.m). verse: 365. "Ajja.t.thamii pabbajitaa, saddhaa saddhammasobhanaa; viniituppalava.n.naaya, tevijjaa maccuhaayinii. 363. Today is the eighth day [since] she went forth full of faith, beautiful by reason of the true Doctrine, instructed by Uppalava.n.naa, with triple knowledge, leaving death behind. txt: Ajja.t.thamii pabbajitaati pabbajitaa hutvaa pabbajitato pa.t.thaaya ajja a.t.thamadivaso, ito atiite a.t.thamiya.m pabbajitaati attho. Saddhaati saddhaasampannaa. Saddhammasobhanaati saddhammaadhigamena sobhanaa. 363. Today is the eighth day (ajj' a.t.thamii) [since] she went forth (pabbajitaa) means: she went forth, [and] today (ajja) is the eighth day (a.t.thama-divaso) since [she] became one who has gone forth (pabbba-jitato). She went forth on the eighth [day] in the past before that time. Full of faith (saddhaa) means: endowed with faith (saddhaa-sampannaa). Beautiful by reason of the true Doctrine (saddhamma-sobhanaa) means: beautiful (sobhanaa) through the attainment of the true Doctrine (sadhammaadhigamena). verse: 366. "Saaya.m bhujissaa a.na.naa, bhikkhunii bhaavitindriyaa; sabbayogavisa.myuttaa, katakiccaa anaasavaa. 364. This one is a freed slave, without debt, a bhikkhunii with developed faculties, unfettered from all ties, her task done, without taints. txt: Bhujissaati daasabhaavasadisaana.m kilesaana.m pahaanena bhujissaa. Kaamacchandaadi-i.naapagamena a.na.naa. 364. A freed slave means: a freed slave through abandoning the defilements, which are like the state of slavery. Without debt, because of freedom from the debts beginning with the desire for sensual pleasures. === to be continued, connie #78681 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) dcwijeratna Dear Sukin, This e-m refers to your e-m addressed to Han, me and Phil. It appears that our conversation, has "conditioned some irritation", most probably in you as the following shows: "I started writing that post intending it to be short and one of agreement. But I had just copy-pasted DSG posts for printing and while doing so saw a little of DC and Phil's exchange and this conditioned some irritation." I am personally very sorry. We had no intention of conditioning irritation in you; we only thought we were discussing Dhamma. See, we have lost sati. So please forgive us for that infringement. I have no comments on your e-m. Frankly, I wonder whether I should write anything to any body. Because I might be a party irritating other people. At least let me confess, Dear Sukin, I never intend to harm anybody. I write only with mettaa in my mind. With karu.naa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78682 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:03 am Subject: A Quick Question on Conditionality upasaka_howard Hi, all - There are many lists the Buddha provides in the suttas showing conditions leading to other conditions. In most of these, the causative conditions listed are among the requisite conditions. In the Upanisa Sutta, however, they are supportive - for example suffering being supportive condition for confidence (saddha). I have three questions in this regard: 1) In what way does dukkha support saddha?, 2) In general, are all supportive conditions requisite? (I suspect not.), and 3) As for requisite conditions, for a given dhamma (or a dhamma of a given sort) to arise, are there alternative sets of requisite conditions, or is there a unique set? (Ordinary experience suggests several alternative sets of conditions, each set on its own leading to the same result as each other set. For example, happiness in the form of mudita arising from the good fortune of others versus happiness arising from hearing the Dhamma well spoken - the "gladdening often referred to on hearing a Dhamma talk by the Buddha). With metta, Howard #78683 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Relations Among Rupas/Jon upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/15/2007 2:10:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: > Perhaps the post I just mailed off to KenH will serve to clarify my > "problem", Jon. Yes and no ;-)) But I think the discussion has move on quite a bit since this message of yours. You seem to be more comfortable with the general idea. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, "moved on"! ;-) Evidently I've fallen into an Abhidhammic abyss! LOL! SOMEBODY, PLEASE, HELP ME, HELP ME!! ;-)) --------------------------------------------------------- Also, Sarah's recent post to you gives some textual material on the point. So I have nothing further to add at the moment. Jon ============================== With metta, Howard #78684 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:11 am Subject: Re: A Quick Question on Conditionality scottduncan2 Dear Howard, A reply to: H: "1) In what way does dukkha support saddha?" Scott: For me, a rather non-subtle experience of the suffering due to impermance (death of wife and a cascading total change in an entire life fabric) was condition for the arising of saddhaa which, I learned, was natural decisive support. Sincerely, Scott. #78685 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:27 am Subject: Re: A Quick Question on Conditionality scottduncan2 Dear Howard, "impermance" would be "impermanence", of course. Compulsively, Scott. #78686 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/15/2007 8:19:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard upasaka@... wrote: > ================================ > Suppose we are about to embark on a series of actions, we then think it > over and realize that harm to others is likely to occur if we take these > actions, and so we chooses to refrain from them. That's the sort of thing I have > in mind. Thanks for the specific example. So the question is, do the conditions for the development of insight include the *conditions underlying intentional wholesome actions such as deliberately refraining from actions which we realise will likely harm others*. I think the best way I can answer that is to say that a person could be very considerate and well-behaved, but if he/she has not heard and understood the teaching that is peculiar to the Buddhas then there can be no insight development. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: But that is not an answer to the question I posed. My question pertained to paramatthic conditions underlying intentional wholesome actions being *among* conditions sufficient (or supportive) for the arising of insight. Instead, your answer is an answer to the question of whether guarding the senses and acting morally is sufficient for the arising of wisdom. I certainly agree that the answer to *that* question is properly in the negative. ------------------------------------------------- > (You know, good actions taken by people who actually live in this > world. Just a drop of unwholesome sarcasm thrown in, Jon! LOL!) > I know you think I don't 'believe' in conventional wholesome actions, but it's not really like that at all ;-)) > Gotta rush - leaving for the hospital; for a routine colonoscopy. Glad to hear it went fine and the results are negative. I had the same procedure myself earlier this year - not a particularly pleasant way to spend a morning ;-((. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: The preceding day of preparation is worse! LOL! ----------------------------------------------------- Jon ========================= With metta, Howard #78687 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:44 am Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) philofillet Hi Jon > The issue of the suitability of anapanasati for a "beginner" is a > different issue to the one I mentioned. > > My point was that the teaching in the Anapanasati Sutta on attaining > enlightenment with jhana as basis was addressed to those already firmly > established in both anapanasati and mindfulness. I think a careful look > at the sutta will confirm that. OK, sorry about that. I think I have been itching to pop in somewhere with my "clansman who is a beginner" discovery and the bit about the gong, and leaped at a post that seemed closely enough related! I am really a child when it comes to serious Dhamma discussion - thanks for your understanding. Metta, Phil #78688 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Quick Question on Conditionality upasaka_howard Hi, Scott - In a message dated 11/15/2007 9:11:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: Dear Howard, A reply to: H: "1) In what way does dukkha support saddha?" Scott: For me, a rather non-subtle experience of the suffering due to impermance (death of wife and a cascading total change in an entire life fabric) was condition for the arising of saddhaa which, I learned, was natural decisive support. Sincerely, Scott. ============================ I'm *very* sorry about the background details of your reply, Scott. Your answer prompts some thinking in me as regards "missing steps" between the dukkha and the saddha: The searching for answers and peace that leads to hearing, considering, and practicing Dhamma! Thank you for your reply, Scott. :-) With metta, Howard #78689 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:50 am Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) philofillet Hi Sukin (and p.s to Elaine) > Also please take this as being addressed more to DC and Phil than to > you, Han. Sukin, I'd just like to say hi and hold off there, because I do have your 4 part post to respond to. I'm thinking it will be this weekend. So I'll wait until then...thanks. Metta, Phil p.s thanks also to you Elaine for your post. Very interesting stuff, but can't get back to you for a few days. #78690 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:01 am Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) sukinderpal Dear DC, > It appears that our conversation, has "conditioned some irritation", most probably in you as the following shows: > > "I started writing that post intending it to be short and one of agreement. > But I had just copy-pasted DSG posts for printing and while doing so > saw a little of DC and Phil's exchange and this conditioned some > irritation." > > I am personally very sorry. We had no intention of conditioning irritation in you; we only thought we were discussing Dhamma. See, we have lost sati. So please forgive us for that infringement. Why did you think that you needed to apologize? Did my letter give you the impression that I was dwelling on that particular impression or that I was blaming someone for any unpleasant feelings aroused? I would rather you discuss the Dhamma with me, but of course, no obligations. Metta, Sukin #78691 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:18 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, When we cling to concepts we misinterprete realities. We cling to an image of a “whole” such as a table or a chair, and we take it for something that exists. In reality different objects, such as visible object or tangible object, are experienced one at a time through different doorways. We also fail to distinguish different cittas performing their different functions such as seeing and thinking. We believe that there is a long moment of seeing, that it lasts. We have to think of concepts so that we can perform our daily activities. Also the Buddha used concepts when he went out on his alms rounds, when he recognized his disciples and spoke to different people. However, he did not cling to concepts and he had no ignorance about them. We should lead our daily life naturally, but we can learn the difference between concepts and realities, dhammas. Acharn Sujin said that seeing sees visible object and after seeing has fallen away, thinking can arise with a concept as object. We pay attention to concepts time and again, but we can learn to develop more understanding of a reality such as visible object appearing right now. We can learn to understand it as only a dhamma, not a person or thing that exists. Gradually we can know the difference between what is real and what is not real in the ultimate sense. We read in the “Kindred Sayings” (IV, Salåyattana vagga, Kindred Sayings on Sense, § 78, Rådha, 3): “Then the venerable Rådha came to the Exalted One... Seated at one side the venerable Rådha said to the Exalted One: - ‘Well for me, lord, if the Exalted One would teach me a teaching in brief, hearing which I might dwell remote and earnest, ardent and aspiring.’ ‘What is non-self, Rådha, -for that you must abandon desire. And what is non-self, Rådha? The eye... visible objects... eye- consciousness... eye-contact... that pleasant or unpleasant or indifferent feeling, which arises owing to eye-contact. What is non- self, you must abandon desire for that. Tongue... body... mind... mental objects... mind-consciousness... mind-contact... you must abandon desire for all that.’ ” Time and again the Buddha spoke about realities appearing through the six doorways so that people could develop understanding of their true nature of impermanence and anattå. Usually we live in the world of concepts and stories about life, but when understanding of dhammas such as seeing, visible object or feeling has been developed more, the concept of the whole world, a person, a body, can be resolved into elements. Then we learn that what we find so important are only insignificant dhammas that arise and fall away, which are non-self. When we read a Sutta about dhammas appearing through the six doorways we can be reminded to deeply consider its meaning: seeing, hearing or feeling appear time and again, even now. They are realities each with their own distinct nature and characteristic.The Buddha said that one must abandon desire for all realities. Understanding, paññå, is associated with a level of detachment: the development of paññå leads to detachment from the idea of self and eventually from all realities. ****** Nina. #78692 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:24 am Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) sukinderpal Hi Phil, > Sukin, I'd just like to say hi and hold off there, because I do have > your 4 part post to respond to. I'm thinking it will be this weekend. > So I'll wait until then...thanks. I wanted to tell you this earlier but would forget about it each time. Please don't feel obliged to respond to more than just a few points. Metta, Sukin #78693 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 3, no 3. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/15/2007 10:18:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, When we cling to concepts we misinterprete realities. We cling to an image of a “wholeâ€? such as a table or a chair, and we take it for something that exists. In reality different objects, such as visible object or tangible object, are experienced one at a time through different doorways. ============================ I completely agree, Nina. However, I would add that concepts such a those of a table or chair are not baseless. They DO provide information about interrelationships among dhammas, information that enables us to sit without falling to the floor and subsequently visiting the chiropracter, and to place dishes in front of oneself for eating instead of having to sweep up shattered dishes from the floor. The ability to conceptualize, the capacity for thought, while a source of avijja is also a source of indispensable knowledge, even for grasping the Dhamma. With metta, Howard #78694 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 3, no 3. nilovg Hi Howard, I agree. That is why I do not believe in continuous mindfulness uninterruptedly. One has to live one's daily life and watch out for holes in the street, noticing them, thinking of them. But that noticing and thinking are conditioned naamas. Nina. Op 15-nov-2007, om 16:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The > ability to conceptualize, the capacity for thought, while a source > of avijja > is also a source of indispensable knowledge, even for grasping the > Dhamma. #78695 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Quick Question on Conditionality nilovg Dear Scott (and Howard) This is so true and sincere, really from your own experience. I do appreciate this. Nina. Op 15-nov-2007, om 15:44 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > H: "1) In what way does dukkha support saddha?" > > Scott: For me, a rather non-subtle experience of the suffering due to > impermance (death of wife and a cascading total change in an entire > life fabric) was condition for the arising of saddhaa which, I > learned, was natural decisive support. #78696 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 moellerdieter Hi Tep and Ken H, you wrote: ' gladly inform you that from now you'll see me no more in any discussion forum with KenH. My (friendly) reason is that he already kicked me out of the discussion room.' D:I am not so glad to see you withdrawing , still expecting you to show the 'bizeps' -you mentioned before -Ken may be missing ... :-) As I see it, the issue of Venerable Thanissaro's heterodoxy as Ken put it, has not yet been proven, though there are some questionable wordings. An interesting story in the history of disputes about the anatta doctrine comes into my mind. It must be roughly 80 years ago when the rather new established Buddhist community in Germany became involved in a very bitter battle of two leading persons, Dahlke and Grimm. The latter was claiming , when I remember correctly , that the Dhamma had been misinterpreted all the time: that no Self/I to be found within existence , would not prove/did not proclaim the non existence , hence the assumption of a 'transcendental Self/I '. In consequence the community split lateron .....the issue still not settled as far as I know, and even in Thailand I met Buddhists who hold Grimm in high esteem. It is not that I suppose that Venerable Thanissaro agrees with Grimm's view, but the case seems to me exemplary in respect to anatta disputes.. A more actual reference I met ,when I googled , noting a nice answer adressed to a 'Ken' ( it wasn't by chance you, Ken? ;-) please see http://en.allexperts.com/q/Buddhists-948/anatman-1.htm with Metta Dieter #78697 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Realities and Concepts (1) ... Citta and We... nilovg Hi Tep, Op 15-nov-2007, om 14:36 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > T: The issue is : I do not know if the Buddha ever defined "concepts" > like you do. ------ N: You may remember the texts about vohaara, conventional expressions and paramattha sacca? They were quoted here several times. Or, the text in Samyutta I: the arahat can also use the word 'I'. The Devas, 1, 14. ------ > T: I do not know if He ever cautioned the disciples to be > careful about concepts; ------ N: I was using th word careful in another connection: we should distinguish between dhammaayatana and dhammaarama.na. The first only refers to realities, not concepts, whereas the second term also includes concepts. Translators make mistakes here. ------- > T: or, if He ever said that concepts could not be > mind-object for meditative purposes. -------- N: They can certainly be meditation subjects of samatha: the kasinas, corpses, etc. Nina. #78698 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 buddhistmedi... Hi Dieter, - >D: I am not so glad to see you withdrawing , still expecting you to show >the 'bizeps' -you mentioned before -Ken may be missing ... :-) >As I see it, the issue of Venerable Thanissaro's heterodoxy as Ken put it, has not yet been proven, though there are some questionable wordings. ................................. T: He cheated me by refusing to review the two articles that I selected as a proof of the venerable's not-guilty of the heterodoxy charge. As you well know, even a marriage is broken by cheating. BTW He might be afraid of my bizeps, that's why he cheated. ;-) 1. Five Piles of Bricks. The Khandhas as Burden & Path http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/khandha.html 2. Emptiness http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/emptiness.html Dieter, do you want to act as a "marriage councelor" or as a sponsor of the "arm wrestling" match? In either case, try persuade him not to cheat anymore and show me his willingness to behave properly by diligently reviewing the two articles (that he earlier refused to discuss). Then I will gladly consider coming back to the armwrestling match. Tep ==== #78699 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality dcwijeratna Hi Howard, I am pleased that you have raised a fairly interesting issue. I would like to chip in. Even before I write a single word, I must say, that I don't understand this business of conditions. Whatever I say please take in that spirit. I assume you are referring to the Upaniisa sutta on SN Nidaana vagga. At the moment, I will look at only 'dukkhuupanisaa saddhaa.' (suffering supports saddhaa) Now the word that gets translated as condition is upanisa. In the DO set up we usually have pa.ticca, paccaya. PTS dictionary gives the following comment about the word. UpanisÄ? (f.) [if = Vedic upaniá¹£ad, it would be fr. upa + ni + sad, but if, as is more likely, a contracted form of upanissaya, it would be fr. upa + ni + Å›ri. The history of this word has yet to be written, cp. Kern, Toev. s. v. & Divy 530 svopaniá¹£ad] -- However, it gives the meanings as follows: 1. cause, means 2. likeness, counterfeit Concise Pali-English Dictionary [A. P. Buddhadatta] gives: basis; support; sufficing condition. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates the word as Proximate cause; calls saddha faith, you have used confidence. Calls the whole sutta transcendental dependent origination --in a translation of the sutta; not in the SN translation. I object to that unless the meaning of t In our vernacular, Sinhala, the word seems to have come from Sanskrit, has the form 'upanisra'. We use it in the sense, really monks use it, of support. Not in the sense of causality. It appears as if it is not causal. The reason is that dukkha need not always lead to saddha. The relationship is more like, if saddha then dukkha, rather than if dukkha then saddhaa. So there is no idapaccayataa. But there is a problem with the above: the rest in that series is causality in the sense of DO. So I am no-where? D. G. D. C. Wijeratna Hi, all - There are many lists the Buddha provides in the suttas showing conditions leading to other conditions. In most of these, the causative conditions listed are among the requisite conditions. In the Upanisa Sutta, however, they are supportive - for example suffering being supportive condition for confidence (saddha). I have three questions in this regard: 1) In what way does dukkha support saddha?, 2) In general, are all supportive conditions requisite? (I suspect not.), and 3) As for requisite conditions, for a given dhamma (or a dhamma of a given sort) to arise, are there alternative sets of requisite conditions, or is there a unique set? (Ordinary experience suggests several alternative sets of conditions, each set on its own leading to the same result as each other set. For example, happiness in the form of mudita arising from the good fortune of others versus happiness arising from hearing the Dhamma well spoken - the "gladdening often referred to on hearing a Dhamma talk by the Buddha). With metta, Howard P. S. I read somewhere that you visited the hospital? Are you ok. Hope so. Our tradional way is to say "sukhii hotu", in Sinhala of course. #78700 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality upasaka_howard Hi, DC - Thank you very much for your feedback on this issue of suffering serving as "support" for confidence. It is a complicated issue it seems. In a message dated 11/15/2007 2:23:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dcwijeratna@... writes: I read somewhere that you visited the hospital? Are you ok. Hope so. Our tradional way is to say "sukhii hotu", in Sinhala of course. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: It was for a routine colonoscopy, and I'm fine! Thanks so much for your kind wishes! :-) ========================== With metta, Howard #78701 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:04 pm Subject: Re: Realities and Concepts (1) ... Citta and We... buddhistmedi... Hi Nina (Elaine, Phil, Han, DC, Dieter and others), - I appreciate the opportunity to discuss concepts and realities with you again. Sorry for being a slow learner. >N (#78697): >You may remember the texts about vohaara, conventional expressions and paramattha sacca? They were quoted here several times. Or, the text in Samyutta I: the arahat can also use the word 'I'. The Devas, 1, 14. T: The meaning of vohara sacca by itself has been clear to me for a long time. But the confusion about 'concepts' arose because this term was explained differently by different persons. Before I read your above comment, I had thought of concepts as 'any things that do not arise and fall quickly with the citta in the present moment'. In other words, any complex object of the citta such as a story, theory, definition, thought formations, etc. are concepts since they do not arise and fall way with a single citta. However, your above reply gives a different picture. It states that a concept is nothing but 'conventional truth' (vohaara-sacca) or, equivalently, 'commonly accepted truth' (sammuti-sacca). I am not sure whether a 'conventional truth' may or may not arise/fall quickly in the present moment. Perhaps, my previous understanding is wrong. I also understand that the present-moment citta that takes a fallen- away ruupa as its object is a paramattha dhamma, but the fallen-away ruupa is not. The post Realities and Concepts(3) helps me see differently. T: Now please allow me to further discuss concepts, using Khun Sujin's Realities and Concepts(3) as guideline. Sujin: "We should know realities in accordance with the truth. What appears through the eyes falls away and then there are mind-door process cittas, which arise afterwards and know a concept. Panna (wisdom) should know realities as they are. It should know what is visible object, which appears through the eye-door. It should know that the experience of visible object is different from the moment that citta knows a concept. Thus we can become detached from the idea that visible object which appears are beings, people, or things; we can become detached from that which is the foundation of clinging. We should understand that when it is known that there is a man, a woman, beings, or different people, the object is an image or concept known through the mind-door. When we develop satipatthana we should know, in order to be able to realize the arising and falling away of nama and rupa, the characteristics of the realities just as they naturally appear. It should be known that paramattha dhammas are not concepts." T: I think she gives a great advice that when we take a mental formation (concoction, fabrication) following a visual sensing of a visible object as a being, person, or thing, we are already deluded by attachment (and attanuditthi). Such a mental formation is called "concept" to differentiate it from the first-hand, original ruupa in the very first moment of seeing at the eye-door. So it is clear to me that the first-hand ruupa that arose and fell away is a paramattha dhamma, while the complex mentally-formed image is concept by definition. Applying this understanding to a rottening corpse, that is being used as a meditation object, I say the corpse is a concept since it is mentally formed. So a concept IS useful for kayagata-sati kammatthana, while the ultimate reality that rapidly arises/falls- away at the eye-door is useless for meditation. Please let me know what you think. Thanks. Tep === #78702 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment truth_aerator Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ======================== > Paramattha dhammas are "ultimates" only in the sense that they are not reducible - they are not (mental) compounds or constructs. > > With metta, > Howard > 1) Question: If one loses consciousness then even the "ultimate" dhammas are no longer experienced for that "person" at that time. When one is unconscious (or in Nirodha Samapati) one does NOT experience any feelings or perceptions. Thus these things are NOT irreducable - they DO depend on the mind to be felt or percieved. A reality HAS to be experienced, otherwise how can it be reality? You may object saying, "even though he lost consciousness, we can speak about the world it hasn't gone anywhere." However that is because WE are conscious at this moment. 2) Are there various degrees (of power) of induvidial citta? Or is it a matter of having more or less of those particular types of citta? Example: A very greedy mind and mind with little greed. Is the difference in NUMBER (quantity) of greed-citta or quality (strength) of induvidual greed-citta? Thanks Lots of metta, Alex #78703 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:09 pm Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) philofillet Hi Sukin Thanks. I was thinking of choosing two points or so from each post. Or perhaps I should just stick to the one that interests me most - about how the AS approach is especially unsuitable for people like myself, who are prone to very gross defilements of the transgression level. This issue of gross defilements and what can be done to weaken their power interests me more, really, than the meditation issue, which is more related to getting at the medium (there is a better word than medium, but I forget it now) level defilements. (morality aginst the gross, concentration against the medium, wisdom against the latent, I think that is the basic layout of how it works, though oversimplified, of course.) We'll see what happens...in a few days. Metta, Phil #78704 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:35 pm Subject: Re: Dead friend philofillet Hi all I was just fiddling way at the back of the DSG archives for some reason and found this post. I thought it was very good to reflect on. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > > Dear group, > A professor (British) at my university died suddenly > and I attended his funeral yesterday. A large man with > a Prince Charles accent- I always smiled when I saw > him around campus - he is what I imagine an Oxford Don > to be. He was a lovely man - an accomplished writer, > popular teacher but self-deprecating and full of > subtle humour. He was on the commitee that hired me > and we have been good friends ever since. > What sort of reflections do you have when someone you > know die? It always makes me reflect on Dhamma. He was > highly successful and helped many people in a worldly > sense and yet his future is completely uncertain. I > never discussed Buddhism with him - except that he > knew I was Buddhist- I was somewhat in awe of his > intellect and felt uncomfortable bringing it up. Yet > now I think I should have: even when people do not > like to hear Dhamma it sometimes conditions > understanding in the future. It is a seed that must be > planted for future growth. > The same with Buddhists who have a different > interpretation of the Dhamma - especially those who > think they can control things. It is sometimes tiring > to talk with them but by doing so it plants > seeds(mainly doubt) that may blossom even in future > lives. > Robert > > I too hesitate to talk about Dhamma with people....there is a thinking that if someone isn't "ready" he or she won't hear, but as Robert says, it can plant seeds in ways we don't know... ...also, we know that people who don't know the Dhamma at all can have favourable rebirth if they have practiced dana and morality. (But no deeper liberation.) Elaine was posting about that, and I found confirmation in some AN suttas last night but haven't posted about it. So if Robert's friend was patient and helpful to many people, he was probably all right....(Who knows what's going on in people's minds, though. That counts too!) Anyways, let's keep talking patiently and kindly with each other. Who knows what fruit it will bear for ourselves and others?> #78705 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:16 pm Subject: Re: A Quick Question on Conditionality philofillet Hi Scott If you don't mind, could I ask you to say a little bit more about how you learned this was ndsc? This is one topic I always mean to clear up a bit someday. Rob Mould posted about ndsc once saying it refers to the frequency, recent-ness, intensity of the conditioning factors, but when I heard AS it sounded less clear in that sense - the frequency, recent-ness, intensity thing didn't come through. Anyways, could I ask you to say a bit more about how you learned it was natural decisive support condition? Thanks. Metta, Phil >was condition for the arising of saddhaa which, I > learned, was natural decisive support. > > #78706 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:17 pm Subject: Re: A Quick Question on Conditionality philofillet Hi again >Rob Mould Oops. I meant Rob Moult, of course. Rob Mould is also cool - he was the vocalist for Husker Du. I miss Rob M. I hope all is going well for him. Metta, Phil #78707 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma and this moment upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 11/15/2007 8:08:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ======================== > Paramattha dhammas are "ultimates" only in the sense that they are not reducible - they are not (mental) compounds or constructs. > > With metta, > Howard > 1) Question: If one loses consciousness then even the "ultimate" dhammas are no longer experienced for that "person" at that time. When one is unconscious (or in Nirodha Samapati) one does NOT experience any feelings or perceptions. Thus these things are NOT irreducable - they DO depend on the mind to be felt or percieved. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: When I said not reducible I did NOT mean independent. I meant that they are not constructs or composites. Hardness for me is an experience, an object of consciousness, not something that exists on its own, but it is also not a mental construct such as a tree that is "built" by sankharic processing from many hardnesses, sights, odors, etc. -------------------------------------------- A reality HAS to be experienced, otherwise how can it be reality? You may object saying, "even though he lost consciousness, we can speak about the world it hasn't gone anywhere." -------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not at all my perspective, Alex. I'm a radical phenomenalist, not an objectivist. -------------------------------------------------- However that is because WE are conscious at this moment. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is no "I" who is conscious. There are just occurrences of knowing. ----------------------------------------------------- 2) Are there various degrees (of power) of induvidial citta? Or is it a matter of having more or less of those particular types of citta? Example: A very greedy mind and mind with little greed. Is the difference in NUMBER (quantity) of greed-citta or quality (strength) of induvidual greed-citta? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Greed is a mental factor, and it comes in varying strengths. -------------------------------------------------- Thanks Lots of metta, Alex ========================== With metta, Howard #78708 From: mlnease Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:53 pm Subject: Andy Shaw & Palitrans m_nease Hello, Does anyone have a current email address for Andy Shaw (J. Andrew Shaw)? I have a link to his Pali Page (which I can't recommend highly enough for Windows users) but the contact link there is obsolete. Thanks in advance. mike #78709 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality dcwijeratna Dear Howard, I am pleased to know that you are well and ok. When I make the above statement, it is not one of those noises that one makes in such situations. It comes from a deep conviction of mine. Let me recount the formation of that conviction. It was about 30 years ago. There was a very poor family living next to my house. Husband, wife and two small kids; may be 3-5 years. The husband was a casual labourer; wife didn't work. When the husband gets money, that is gets some work he will come home in the evening with things to eat. I can sort of hear there laughter; they lived peacefully. The situation was totally different; he will come home drunk; he would beat the wife; he would throw things, dishes, cooking vessels etc. and break them. The wife would be howling; the children would be wailing. This would go on till about midnight. And I couldn't sleep. Not only the wife and children, but I also had to suffer. This set me thinking, the man's contrasting behaviour when he has and does not have money to satisfy his basic needs. And I wished that he may get money, so I could sleep. Not only the sleep, the innocent children's wailing was going through my mind. The wife's wailing did not make such an impression. After all she 'married' him; her own free choice. But the children and I are innoncent victims. Those days, there was nothing much to do in the evenings, no television!!!, and this was happening every other day. Most probably because I had nothing to day. I went deeper into the behaviour of this family. Those were my formative years as a manager. I was reading about employee behaviour in organizations. So I started generalizing my experience. Again in real experiential terms. I had poor relatives. Now, if they come home, they usually come to ask me something or other; usually a request I cannot accomodate. I feel uneasy when I can't do so. But then, if they had that want satisfied, they would not come and bother me. I wished that they get whatever they wanted. Thinking went further, robbers would not rob us if they had money. I also realized, even one who hates me or jealous of me, that is people who are ill-disposed towards me, when they get money position etc. they are enjoying themselves and forget me. Let me give a concrete. Those days going abroad was a big thing. Assume that A doesn't like me and does various things to irritate me. Now he gets a foreign scholarship or may be a training program. Then he goes abroad and happy; even I would get chocolates when returns. So I thought may he get more and more scholarships. Well with this kind of thing I thought may everybody should get what they want. It is much later I learnt about 'muditaa'. I thought the above, you will find useful. All the dhamma that I know is like that. Dhamma-study came much later, and to my delight I found support there. And I delightfully accepted the Dhamma and became and 'upaasaka'--a lay disciple of the Buddha. "Ukkaadhaaro Manussaana, Nicca.m Apacito Mayaa" 'I shall always revere the Torchbearer of Mankind' With lots of mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna P. S. I have thought a lot about Upanisa sutta. But my thinking is radical. I will wait for some others to respond. If they have strong opinions, views on the matter, I will not state them. It is a waste of time to discuss with them. How can one discuss about privately held opinions. #78710 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:58 pm Subject: Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 sukinderpal Hi Tep, Ken H and Dieter, ======================== T: To be fair to the venerable, Ken, you should have given specific quotes from his articles or commentaries along with your criticism. Since you admitted that you had read less than 70% of the venerable's published materials, I thought if I could provide some relevant quotes for you, you might stop attacking him. Indeed, attacking a virtuous monk is not very beneficial to you at all. So, I seriously request that you carefully read the following excerpts taken from two of his many articles (just to get the idea). Sukin: That belief in `eternal self' is implied in the writings of B. Thanissaro has not caught my attention so much. My reaction is more to his reference to `Anatta' as being a `strategy' and as in your quotes, to the Khandhas: "they use the concept of the khandhas to deconstruct"; "use them to put an end to suffering"; "As long as you're still alive, you can employ the khandhas as needed for whatever skillful uses you see fit. After that, you're liberated from all uses and needs, including the need to find words to describe that freedom to yourself or to anyone else." When the Buddha spoke about the Khandhas and when he proclaimed that: "All sankhara dhammas are Anicca, All sankhara dhammas are Dukkha, All dhammas are Anatta." Do you ever get the impression that he meant them merely as a "tool" for the purpose of arousing a particular attitude towards experiences? Don't you get the impression from whatever the Buddha said, that he was giving a description of `the way things are' and that if any of his direct audience got enlightened instantly, that this was due to *insight* rather than a change of attitude? To me there is a *huge* difference between these two ways of looking at what the Buddha taught. And I consider B. Thanissaro's way to be very misleading, a result of his own inability to correctly grasp the Dhamma. The reference to the Khandhas and these as being anicca, dukkha and anatta, this is about our experience NOW. We are therefore encouraged to *study* whatever sankhara dhammas that has been conditioned to arise in the moment by their characteristics, and not merely to superimpose an idea (of them being khandha and anatta). Hence the significance of Satipatthana as being the "One Way". It would seem to me that had the Buddha meant his audience to use these concepts as mere `tools', then his teaching on the Satipatthana would be of little consequence. Why would there be the need to know the characteristic of dhammas? There wouldn't even be any need to distinguish concept from reality, let alone nama from rupa, after all, concepts too, can be looked at with the particular attitude of mind! But of course, this is not what the Buddha taught and so I strongly reject B. Thanissaro's teachings. And is this showing disrespect to B. Thanissaro, or is it a case of showing respect to the Buddha? ;-) Metta, Sukin #78711 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) dcwijeratna Dear Sukin, Thank you for your response. You have written: >>>>> "Why did you think that you needed to apologize? Did my letter give you the impression that I was dwelling on that particular impression or that I was blaming someone for any unpleasant feelings aroused?"<<<<< Answer to the first question: According to the way we have been trained from childhood, we are required to apologise, if we had irritated somebody, even if he had no intention. Answer to the second question: Yes. When someone says that he gets irritated on reading something I have written, then I have to conclude that my words caused his irritation. That is how my mind works. ..... I have answered your question, honestly and truthfully. If you think that the answer should be different, then we cannot communicate. That is how I think about it? Mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78712 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality upasaka_howard Hi, DC - In a message dated 11/15/2007 9:55:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dcwijeratna@... writes: Dear Howard, I am pleased to know that you are well and ok. When I make the above statement, it is not one of those noises that one makes in such situations. It comes from a deep conviction of mine. Let me recount the formation of that conviction. It was about 30 years ago. There was a very poor family living next to my house. Husband, wife and two small kids; may be 3-5 years. The husband was a casual labourer; wife didn't work. When the husband gets money, that is gets some work he will come home in the evening with things to eat. I can sort of hear there laughter; they lived peacefully. The situation was totally different; he will come home drunk; he would beat the wife; he would throw things, dishes, cooking vessels etc. and break them. The wife would be howling; the children would be wailing. This would go on till about midnight. And I couldn't sleep. Not only the wife and children, but I also had to suffer. This set me thinking, the man's contrasting behaviour when he has and does not have money to satisfy his basic needs. And I wished that he may get money, so I could sleep. Not only the sleep, the innocent children's wailing was going through my mind. The wife's wailing did not make such an impression. After all she 'married' him; her own free choice. But the children and I are innoncent victims. Those days, there was nothing much to do in the evenings, no television!!!, and this was happening every other day. Most probably because I had nothing to day. I went deeper into the behaviour of this family. Those were my formative years as a manager. I was reading about employee behaviour in organizations. So I started generalizing my experience. Again in real experiential terms. I had poor relatives. Now, if they come home, they usually come to ask me something or other; usually a request I cannot accomodate. I feel uneasy when I can't do so. But then, if they had that want satisfied, they would not come and bother me. I wished that they get whatever they wanted. Thinking went further, robbers would not rob us if they had money. I also realized, even one who hates me or jealous of me, that is people who are ill-disposed towards me, when they get money position etc. they are enjoying themselves and forget me. Let me give a concrete. Those days going abroad was a big thing. Assume that A doesn't like me and does various things to irritate me. Now he gets a foreign scholarship or may be a training program. Then he goes abroad and happy; even I would get chocolates when returns. So I thought may he get more and more scholarships. Well with this kind of thing I thought may everybody should get what they want. It is much later I learnt about 'muditaa'. I thought the above, you will find useful. All the dhamma that I know is like that. Dhamma-study came much later, and to my delight I found support there. And I delightfully accepted the Dhamma and became and 'upaasaka'--a lay disciple of the Buddha. "Ukkaadhaaro Manussaana, Nicca.m Apacito Mayaa" 'I shall always revere the Torchbearer of Mankind' With lots of mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I may be misunderstanding what you write above, DC, but if not, then my thoughts on sympathetic joy are different from yours. I do agree that what is good is truly good for others (as opposed to what they may happen to want) is good for all, including me. But sympathetic joy isn't self-oriented; it is pure happiness at the good fortune of others *for* those others. -------------------------------------------------------- P. S. I have thought a lot about Upanisa sutta. But my thinking is radical. I will wait for some others to respond. If they have strong opinions, views on the matter, I will not state them. It is a waste of time to discuss with them. How can one discuss about privately held opinions. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm sorry that you will not state your opinions on that sutta. I would be interested in reading them. ============================ With metta, Howard #78713 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:11 am Subject: Universal Causality !!! bhikkhu0 Friends: Caused by What ? Ignorance causes mental construction to arise. Mental construction causes consciousness to arise. Consciousness causes name-&-form, matter-&-mind to arise. Name-&-form cause the-6-sense-sources to arise. The-6-sense-sources cause contact to arise. Contact causes feeling to arise. Feeling causes craving to arise. Craving causes clinging to arise. Clinging causes becoming to arise. Becoming causes birth to arise. Birth causes ageing, decay, & death to arise. Ageing, decay, & death cause Suffering to arise. So is the emergence of this entire mass of pain! There is becoming, birth, presence, decay, & ceasing of the mental moments. There is becoming, birth, presence, decay, & ceasing of the material moments. There is becoming, birth, presence, decay, & ceasing of the life of a being. There is becoming, birth, presence, decay, & ceasing of the galaxies of the universe. This sweeping yet exhaustive description of causality applies to all these above four extreme time-scales and all those in between. Verily indeed a Universal Generality is this Dependent Co-Arising (Paticca Samuppada)! Dig it & keep digging. Then true understanding will ever expand: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-020.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-044.html http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/n_r/paticca_samuppaada.htm The Blessed Buddha has said: Profound, Ananda, is this dependent origination, and profound does it appear. It is through not understanding, not penetrating, this subtle law that this world resembles a tangled ball of thread, a bird's nest, a thicket of grass or reed... Any person who does not understand this, does neither escape from the lower states of existence, from the course of pain, misery & suffering, from this round of rebirth. Digha Nikaya 15 Whoever understands dependent origination understands the Dhamma. Whoever understands the Dhamma understands the dependent origination. Majjhima Nikaya 28 Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * <...> #78714 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:53 pm Subject: Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 buddhistmedi... Hi Sukin (Dieter and others), - I was not surprised to see another Anti-Thanissaro-Bhikkhu ('ATB') besides KenH. Perhaps, one reason why you and your 'alter ego' KenH dislike the venerable is what he wrote about the 'no self' view such as the following. TB: "If the world and the people in the story of your life don't really exist, then all the actions and reactions in that story seem like a mathematics of zeros, and you wonder why there's any point in practicing virtue at all." ................. >Sukin: That belief in `eternal self' is implied in the writings of B. Thanissaro has not caught my attention so much. My reaction is more to his reference to `Anatta' as being a `strategy' and as in your quotes, to the Khandhas: "they use the concept of the khandhas to deconstruct"; "use them to put an end to suffering"; "As long as you're still alive, you can employ the khandhas as needed for whatever skillful uses you see fit. After that, you're liberated from all uses and needs, including the need to find words to describe that freedom to yourself or to anyone else." T: It is much easier for a person whose view is not biased (because of hate, dislike) to clearly see the venerable's deep meaning of the Not- self Strategy : it is a cleverly-designed questioning approach which is "based around the khandhas" as anatta. He indeed follows the Buddha's questioning strategy like the following. "Is it constant or inconstant?" "And is what is inconstant stressful or pleasurable?" "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'? The venerable suggests we use the concept of the khandhas to deconstruct passion and delight on the khandhas which creates suffering. He also suggests that we use (or employ) the khandhas "as needed for whatever skillful uses you see fit". That reminds me of the Buddha's famous 'raft simile'. .................................... >Sukin: When the Buddha spoke about the Khandhas and when he proclaimed that: "All sankhara dhammas are Anicca, All sankhara dhammas are Dukkha, All dhammas are Anatta." Do you ever get the impression that he meant them merely as a "tool" for the purpose of arousing a particular attitude towards experiences? Don't you get the impression from whatever the Buddha said, that he was giving a description of `the way things are' and that if any of his direct audience got enlightened instantly, that this was due to *insight* rather than a change of attitude? T: The Buddha proclaimed the Truths. He taught the practice for realization of the Truths. Tranquility and insight have to be developed by each individual. I do get the impression that his suggested questioning strategy on the khandhas is for the purpose of realization of the Truths. It has nothing to do with attitude. .................................... >Sukin: To me there is a *huge* difference between these two ways of looking at what the Buddha taught. And I consider B. Thanissaro's way to be very misleading, a result of his own inability to correctly grasp the Dhamma. T: I completely disagree, Sukin. The venerable explains how the Buddha employed "stories and world views" as a strategy to serve a puirpose as follows: "He recounted the stories of people's lives to show how suffering comes from the unskillful perceptions behind their actions, and how freedom from suffering can come from being more perceptive. And he described the basic principles that underlie the round of rebirth to show how bad intentional actions lead to pain within that round, good ones lead to pleasure, while really skillful actions can take you beyond the round altogether." T: Only a very smart monk who has tremendous knowledge of the Dhamma (principles & practice) can write something like that. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > ....... ..... > > The reference to the Khandhas and these as being anicca, dukkha and > anatta, this is about our experience NOW. We are therefore encouraged > to *study* whatever sankhara dhammas that has been conditioned to > arise in the moment by their characteristics, and not merely to > superimpose an idea (of them being khandha and anatta). Hence the > significance of Satipatthana as being the "One Way". > > It would seem to me that had the Buddha meant his audience to use > these concepts as mere `tools', then his teaching on the Satipatthana > would be of little consequence. Why would there be the need to know > the characteristic of dhammas? There wouldn't even be any need to > distinguish concept from reality, let alone nama from rupa, after all, > concepts too, can be looked at with the particular attitude of mind! > > But of course, this is not what the Buddha taught and so I strongly reject > B. Thanissaro's teachings. And is this showing disrespect to B. > Thanissaro, or is it a case of showing respect to the Buddha? ;-) > > Metta, > > Sukin > #78715 From: "Sukinder" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:58 pm Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) sukinderpal Dear Dc, > Answer to the first question: According to the way we have been trained from childhood, we are required to apologise, if we had irritated somebody, even if he had no intention. OK. I would also like to take this opportunity to apologize for what was obviously harsh speech on my part. Metta, Sukin. #78716 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:14 pm Subject: Re: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] sarahprocter... Hi Alex, I've appreciated your discussions with Scott. --- Alex wrote: > As I understand Alaya Vinnana is NOT a self or a soul. And mind IS > NOT some absolute, it is actually an 'error' rather than some good > source from which everything comes and where everything returns. .... S: Could you clarify what you understand vinnana to be. By 'error', do you mean 'mind' as translation of vinnana? Sorry, I've appreciated your discussions with Scott, but I'm not quite sure now what your meaning is. Sorry if I've missed/forgotten something. I was answering a queery about the reference to alaya vinnana, but forget why it you brought it up in the first place. .... > Furthermore, where is Kamma stored? We could be dealing with issue of > semantics rather than doctrinal issues. ... S: Does kamma have to be 'stored' anywhere? Yes, it may be a question of semantics. Is the salt 'stored' in the ocean? Metta, Sarah Did you have any comment on my other post to you? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/78413 ========= #78717 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you very much for your series. > I have one request to make. You wrote: > > S: On the contrary, I think it helps us understand > that the real problems in life are not the kamma > results (vipaka), but the accumulated defilements > which arise so quickly following such vipaka. Usually, > people think the opposite – that it is the result of > kamma that is so important. > > Han: I think I know what you mean. But to be > absolutely clear, can you kindly elaborate on it, > please? > .... S: Usually, don't we think the problems are such things as poor health, poverty, blame - on other words, the vicissitudes of the 8 worldly conditions? As we know, as right undersanding grows, there is more detachment to these worldly conditions with an appreciation that the real problems in life are the lobha, dosa and moha on account of what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched. What is experienced through the senses, the kusala and akusala vipaka is so very brief and inconsequential on account of its impermanence. However, the kusala or akusala which is accumulated is of far greater consequence. Please let me know what you think, Han. Btw, I appreciate the questions and good points you raise on 'Perfections' and 'Concepts & Realities'. On the point about 'if we do not appreciate this, the citta is akusala', perhaps it was also meant to stress that if the cittas in any javana process (excluding arahants of course) are not kusala, then they are akusala. No 'neutral' middle ground here. Metta, Sarah ========== #78718 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > When you feel sad (mental feeling) can you detect a feeling apart from > the physical feeling sensations? .... S: Of course, there is the unpleasant mental feeling (domanassa) accompanying the dosa (sadness/aversion). It is this unpleasant mental feeling that everyone wishes to avoid. ... > > When you touch something very hot is the feeling of pain in some sense > physical? ... S: No, the painful feeling is mental unpleasant feeling accompanying the body consciousness on account of the heat experienced. If there is no touching of the hot object, there is no feeling of pain. The rupas don't experience anything. Think of a corpse - no painful feeling. .... > When you taste delicious food is the pleasant feeling that arises _not_ > dependent on tasting and _not_ the decisive support condition for > craving? ... S: There are several conditions involved. The delicious food is object decisive condition for the attachment and pleasant feeling. There is also pleasant feeling conditioned by natural decisive support condition or habit. You might smell coffee and have pleasant feeling before even tasting it. Also, in between the tasting, there can be pleasant bodily feeling accompanying the body experiencing of the tangible object. (This is similar to when you hear a loud noise - hearing is accompanied by neutral feeling, but there are also moments of unpleasant bodily experience accompanied by unpleasant feeling). All very complicated! ... > When the doctor asks you, "where does it hurt?", do you say, "in my > mind"? ... S: There is body-sense all over the body. So when we understand that the 'hurt' or unpleasant feelings are mental, we can still point to the head or toe or anywhere else on the body as being the 'location'. Without the tangible object, body-sense and contact, no 'hurt' feelings. However, if there were no experiencing of tangible objects, pointing to the head or toe would be like pointing to a log of wood. Good points to raise. Any more? Metta, Sarah ========= #78719 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) sarahprocter... Dear Han, (Dieter* & all), My turn to ask you to elaborate: --- han tun wrote: > Han: When I was young, my parents and grand-parents > and Elders talked about “daana, siila, bhaavanaa” and > they believed in the “gradual training” of six > kathaas(anupubbi-kathaa), starting with daana-kathaa, > siila-kathaa, and sagga-kathaa. > > But the time has changed. Now, people are talking > about dependent origination, magga-kathaa, vipassana > meditation, etc. Ledi Sayadaw, Mingun Sayadaw, Mogok > Sayadaw, Mahaasi Sayadaw and other Sayadaws have also > contributed, to a very large extent, towards the > present-day study and practice of Buddha’s Teachings > in Burma. > > But I am like a person holding onto two branches and > dangling in the middle, not grasping firmly to the > pre-War practice or the modern-day practice. .... S: I know (as you've said), that this isn't an issue for you, but I'm still interested in understanding more about how you see these different approaches in Burma - those of your childhood and the modern approach. Grateful if you'd elaborate further. Metta, Sarah *p.s Dieter, also interested to read your comments about developments/Buddhist ideas in Germany over the years. Pls also add more anytime. ================ #78720 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:13 pm Subject: bangkok rjkjp1 Nina asked me to write about how it is living in Thailand. I stay about 80kms out of Bangkok and drive in every weekend to attend the Saturday English session with Khun Sujin. At 80 years old she is in her prime and her understanding is thrilling. I like to sit with eyes closed and listen , a lovely condition to help attention to the present moment Everyone is welcome to speak though, so I sometimes comment or ask questions but these are rather coarse due to my own lack of unnderstanding, but it can help to receive feedback. I also study Thai language with private teachers and am hoping to be able to attend the talks in Thai language from next year. I must say that, in comparison, reading on dsg, which for some reason attracts many members who do not appreciate Abhidhamma, seems of limited use, although it is inspiring to see the enormous patience of Nina, Sarah and Jon everyday. Last week at the meeting I saw a nice letter from the Mahabodhi society in India inviting the Dhamma study and support Foundation to contribute a new urn where the relics of Sariputta will be kept. I felt very pleased to be able to make a small donation, and later near the Marriot hotel, where I cross the Chao Praya river after the meeting, I was with Ivan and Sukinder and we met a couple who were at the meeting. They had given their gold wedding rings to be smelted down as part of the gold that will make up the urn. Nice things like this are so common living here in Thailand, it is really a most suitable place. Robert #78721 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 kenhowardau Hi Dieter, Just one more post and I will have caught up with you. :-) ----------------- <. . .> D: yes, that is a good point: conventional reality... and it refers to a kind of illusion/self delusion with the background of khanda attachment. as I see it, the delusion (ignorance) is real until abolished by insight and replaced by panna until then our action is (partly) directed by it, as anatta not yet fully penetrated. I suppose this kind of 'reality' refers to concept in Abhidammic terms? ------------------- In a way it does. The concept of a worldling is usually of someone who acts with ignorance, craving and/or dosa. But in Abhidhamma terms there are only the namas and rupas of the present moment. Often, a moment is just vipaka (or just kiriya) in which case it is neither kusala nor akusala. Furthermore, worldling namas can sometimes be kusala - just as ariyan namas (if the ariyan is not an arahant) can sometimes be akusala. -------------------------------- > > KH: I think anyone who has not learnt about paramattha dhammas is incapable of understanding anatta. What use would it be to know there was no self without also knowing there were paramattha dhammas? I think it would leave a person with some kind of "nothing really exists" philosophy. That would be disastrous. If nothing really existed there would be no real difference between wholesome and unwholesome, and no real difference between right path and wrong path. It doesn't bear thinking about! :-) > > > D: considered that the Buddha Dhamma Vinaya isn't mentioning (the definition of ) Paramattha Dhammas, i.e. involving khandas AND nibbana , and e..g that unwholesome and wholesome action is clearly defined , I disagree. The use to learn that there is 'ultimately, no self , but an appearing delusion, is the reason of investigation /insight work( vipassana) --------------------------------- It seems we can't to agree on anything! :-) ---------------------- <. . .> D: > "religious ritual" ? would you call that e.g to sit down , calm down and reflect all aspects (of body, feeling, mind and mind objects) the Buddha described in the training of mindfulness , i.e. the Maha Satipatthana Sutta? ----------------------- Since you mention it, yes, that sutta is an excellent case in point. The Maha Satipatthana Sutta describes the moments of mundane right understanding (satipatthana) that can arise in the course of daily life. It begins with the daily life of a jhana master. Later it deals with less grand people involved in all kinds of activities (including going to the toilet). It is all about the moments of satipatthana that can arise in the daily life of anyone who has wisely heard, considered and applied the Dhamma (any "monk" in the ultimate sense of the word). Those people can experience satipatthana at any time. People who have not wisely heard, considered and applied the Dhamma cannot experience satipatthana at any time. No amount of sitting (mimicking a jhana master) or of walking with special concentration (on the feet going up and down) will have any effect on satipatthana. That would only be a useless ritual - born of wrong understanding. -------------- <. . .> > > KH: Are you suggesting that "let go of" means "no longer believe in?" > D: let go means to detach ..it is more than ' no longer to believe in ' , we let go when we know due to better insight ...( detachment the point when we talk about that suffering is in brief 5Khanda attachment) --------------- Here, we were talking about B Thanissaro's account of "putting down the raft." I think we should leave that subject for a while. You want to give BT the benefit of the doubt, and that's fine by me. Just so long as you realise that there is at least a question mark (in the minds of most Dhamma students) over his unorthodox teachings. Ken H #78722 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3) sarahprocter... Dear Ven Dhammanando, Thank you for your helpful information. A friend was asking us about this point in India and I'd forgotten these details in Vism. (I'd probably skipped over them before!) Thank you for the further sources too. Glad to hear you're fully recovered. We'll soon be uploading the edited discussions with A.Sujin from August 06 at the Foundation. You were present for the last session as I recall. Metta & Respect, Sarah --- Dhammanando Bhikkhu wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > >> Dh: Tusita devas don't live long enough for this to be possible. For > >> that matter, neither does Tusita itself. The destructions and > >> evolutions of the Cakkavaa.la that occur in the interval between two > >> Buddhas leave only certain of the highest Brahma heavens intact. ... > The main source that treats cosmic destruction and evolution in detail > would be the exposition of recollection of former lives > (pubbenivaasaanussati) in the Visuddhimagga (_Path of Purification_ > XIII 28-65). <...> #78723 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) hantun1 Dear Sarah, In Burma, before WWII more than 80 per cent of population lived in villages in rural areas and occupation was mostly farming (growing paddy). So as you are reading this post please try to visualize a rural setting. When the farmers were about 60 years of age, they left the farming with their children and they went to the temple almost every day. They observed five or eight precepts, listened to dhamma talks by the monks, and did whatever was to be done for the temple – cleaning the compound, fetching drinking water, etc. (veyaavacca). About lunch time, the children brought the lunch to the temple. They offered the lunch first to the monks and the elders ate after the monks had finished. Then they would go to a quiet place and read dhamma books or counted prayer beads. It was very simple and peaceful. [Meditation was done mainly by the monks.] They were not burdened with no-self or not-self sort of teachings. They usually went by the “gradual training” of six kathaas (anupubbi- kathaa), starting with daana-kathaa, siila-kathaa, and sagga-kathaa, and so on. But now the time has changed. I will not go into detail, because you know what it will be like in any other Theravaada country at present. What I said for me was I was in the middle. I want to go the simpler way of pre-War period, and also I want to go according of the present day practice, but not very successful in either way. Does it answer your question? Respectfully, Han #78724 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Your original statement was: Sarah: On the contrary, I think it helps us understand that the real problems in life are not the kamma results (vipaka), but the accumulated defilements which arise so quickly following such vipaka. Usually, people think the opposite – that it is the result of kamma that is so important. -------------------- Your further elaboration on it was: Sarah: Usually, don't we think the problems are such things as poor health, poverty, blame - on other words, the vicissitudes of the 8 worldly conditions? As we know, as right understanding grows, there is more detachment to these worldly conditions with an appreciation that the real problems in life are the lobha, dosa and moha on account of what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched. Han: Okay, no problem to understand the above. -------------------- Sarah: What is experienced through the senses, the kusala and akusala vipaka is so very brief and inconsequential on account of its impermanence. However, the kusala or akusala which is accumulated is of far greater consequence. Han: Here, it is a problem. I find it difficult to accept that the kusala and akusala vipaka is so very brief and inconsequential on account of its impermanence. All dhammas are impermanent, not only the vipaakas. Furthermore, I don’t think they are very brief and inconsequential. I think they are very much consequential. You very well know that abyaakataa dhamma is mentioned many times as the “condition” in Patthaana, and abyaakataa dhamma consists of vipaaka cittas and kiriya cittas. I accept that accumulation of kusala and akusala is of a very great consequence, but I find it difficult to accept that vipaakas are very brief and inconsequential. Respectfully, Han #78725 From: "Leo" Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:51 pm Subject: blanket leoaive Hi I was reading Samyuta Nikaya today. Buddha was telling about the sage and about the blanket. I was thinking it is a good idea to make Buddha image on blanket and then put on the wall. In that case it is good for soundproofing and Buddha image on fabric that is keeping a good shape. Can you tell Buddhist artists to make something like that? With Metta Lea #78726 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:03 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anatta of "Self" and the World dacostacharles Dear Howard, My old friend, you almost got my feathers ruffled :-) I have to quote you: " IMO, what Bhikkhu Aggacitto said in the material you quote above and what you then add are both in error. With regard to what Bhante said: No self is needed to be aware of an illusion or a deluded state or anything else. Knowing is an event, and it does not require a knower. When it is raining, Charles, there need not be a "rainer". When it is snowing, there need not be a "snower". As for what you said: Nothing survives the rounds of samsara, nothing passes on from lifetime to lifetime. To think that something passes over is Sati's error, an error explicitly pointed out by the Buddha. The idea of a self or ego, a "soul"; that transmigrates and eventually becomes freed of defilements and attachments is not what the Buddha taught. That is Brahmanism. " By defining, "knowing" requires a knower (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/knowing%20 ). I am afraid you missed the point. The Buddha did believe in beings, and them being trapped in the rounds of samsara, he also believed in the reincarnation. The difference is that He defined the self as: compounded (the 5 to 6 aggregates), impermanent (arises and fades due to causes), and a source of suffering. When it is raining or snowing - Some Clouds are The Rainer or Snower! The error the Buddha pointed out was the Brahmans had the wrong definitions (i.e., understanding or view). If not, then how could the Buddha have seen HIS past-lives? Goto goback later Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of upasaka@... Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 1:50 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta of "Self" and the World Hi, Charles (and Alex & Bhante) - In a message dated 11/12/2007 6:24:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@POST10. TELE.DK writes: Dear Alex and bhikkhu aggacitto Reverend aggacitto, I agree with what you said, as follows: "The only problem that exists with this is that therefore life become's one big solipstic dream where no one can be really sure of anything! However, let's remember that in order for one's "self" to be an illusion (delusion) there STILL has to be the "self" available to perceive the "illusion" or "deluded" state !" <...> #78727 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Thx for your comments as always! I hope you don't mind another quick response. --- han tun wrote: > Sarah: What is experienced through the senses, the > kusala and akusala vipaka is so very brief and > inconsequential on account of its impermanence. > However, the kusala or akusala which is accumulated is > of far greater consequence. > > Han: Here, it is a problem. I find it difficult to > accept that the kusala and akusala vipaka is so very > brief and inconsequential on account of its > impermanence. All dhammas are impermanent, not only > the vipaakas. ... S: That's true, but the moments of vipaka, such as seeing consciousness and hearing consciousness are but single cittas which don't hurt or harm or lead to bad results or bad accumulations. On the other hand, the akusala cittas which follow are very, very numerous, arising in countless mind-door processes following the sense door experience. They accumulate and when strong enough are of an intensity (kamma-patha) which will bring further akusala vipaka in future. ... >Furthermore, I don’t think they are very > brief and inconsequential. I think they are very much > consequential. ... S: Don't you think they are consequential because of the importance we make of them? For the arahat, on the other hand, without any proliferations, they are of no consequence whatsoever. ... >You very well know that abyaakataa > dhamma is mentioned many times as the “condition” in > Patthaana, and abyaakataa dhamma consists of vipaaka > cittas and kiriya cittas. ... S: Abyaakataa dhamma also includes all rupas and nibbana - any dhamma which is not kusala or akusala. Of course, as you say, vipaka cittas are a condition in many ways for other dhammas to arise, such as by being object for akusala cittas. However, the main cause for akusala cittas to arise is the accumulation of such in the past, the non-eradicated latent tendencies of these defilements, wouldn't you agree? .... > I accept that accumulation of kusala and akusala is of > a very great consequence, but I find it difficult to > accept that vipaakas are very brief and > inconsequential. ... S: We find it very important whether we hear pleasant or unpleasant sounds, see pleasant or unpleasant visible objects. Why? Just because of attachment and ignorance. I think the reason we find it difficult to accept is because we're used to thinking of the results of kamma in terms of a big situation, such as sickness, poverty in India, difficult work conditions and so on. Larry asked about the pain we sometimes experience. Actually, there's just one moment of painful bodily feeling at a time and then so many, many moments of thinking and aversion in between. Isn't this the point of the second arrow being the more serious? Please 'fire' more comments/disagreements back, Han. They're helpful for us all to consider further. Metta, Sarah ======== #78728 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Sarah, With your further clarification, we are getting nearer to agree with each other. But I am still not clear about your following statement. S: Abyaakataa dhamma also includes all rupas and nibbana - any dhamma which is not kusala or akusala. Han: Where do you find this definition? Dr Mehm Tin Mon’s book, page 116 – Avyaakataa means ‘intermediate’ i.e. neither determined as kammically ‘wholesome’ nor as ‘unwholesome. Vipaaka cittas and kiriya cittas together with their concomitants are termed as avyaakataa because they are kammically neutral. Nyanatiloka’s Dictionary, page 32 – Avyaakataa: lit. 'indeterminate' - i.e. neither determined as karmically 'wholesome' nor as 'unwholesome' - are the karmically neutral, i.e. amoral, states of consciousness and mental factors. They are either mere karma-results (vipâka, q.v.), as e.g. all the sense perceptions and the mental factors associated therewith, or they are karmically independent functions (kiriya-citta, q.v.), i.e. neither karmic nor karma-resultant. In both these definitions I do not find all ruupas and nibbana included in avyaakataa. Respectfully, Han #78729 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma, Suttas & Meditation sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > wrote: > A) Atthasalini (commentary to the Dhammasangani), Introductory > discourse (PTS transl): > >>>> > > That is a later commentary. > > In DN#16 (4.37) Buddha has said that his skin appears very clear and > bright (brighter than golden robe) only on two occasions: > > a)On the night of His awakenening > b) On the night of his parinibbana > > "Two golden robes were Pukkusa's offering: Brighter shone the > Teacher's body than its dress." > pg 260 (LDB) > > NO MENTION OF EMITING RAYS DUE TO THINKING ABOUT Patthana. Why did he > in the suttas did not say "check my words against sutta, vinaya, and > Abhidhamma"? There wouldn't be any controversy if He mentioned 7 > books of Abhidhamma-Pitaka.... ... S: Sorry, I don't have any answers about the bright skin vs the emitting of rays. I'm not sure they refer to the same, but haven't studied this at all. During the Buddha's life there was no Abhidhamma-Pitaka. The 'Dhamma-Vinaya' included all the teachings which were classified during the first council when the Ti-Pitaka is first mentioned, as I recall. All the 84,000 units of text have to be accounted for and I think you'll find you need the Abhidhamma Pitaka to do this:-). The commentary to the Maha Parinibbana Sutta makes it clear that 'sutta' there refers to all 3 baskets. I think it comes down to what makes sense and can be proved now. Seeing consciousness is a momentary citta which experiences visible object and is then gone. And this is followed by further cittas, one after the other, all experiencing their respective objects. No self anywhere. Very simple and very daily life. Btw, Alex, can you tell us a little more about your background in Buddhism, where you live and anything else you care to share? A photo would be very nice too!! Metta, Sarah ======= #78730 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Glad we're getting close:-) --- han tun wrote: > S: Abyaakataa dhamma also includes all rupas and > nibbana - any dhamma which is not kusala or akusala. > > Han: Where do you find this definition? .... S: 1. see this extract from a message of Nina's: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/60681 N:"I am just reposting my Meaning of Dhamma in the Pali list with some corrections, and I came across this: The Saddaniti gives a further explanation of the different meanings: N: In the Books of the Abhidhamma all realities are classified as threefold: kusala, akusala and abyaakataa, or avyaakataa. Avyaakata means not declared, not determined. They are not determined as kusala nor as akusala, they are indeterminate. Kusala dhammas are the kusala cittas with their accompanying cetasikas (mental factors). Akusala dhammas are the akusala cittas with their accompanying cetasikas. Indeterminate dhammas are: vipaakacittas (cittas which are results of kamma) and their accompanying cetasikas. Kiriyacittas, inoperative cittas, cittas which are neither cause (kusala or akusala) nor result, with their accompanying cetasikas. Ruupa, physical phenomena and nibbaana. For example, in the First Book of the Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, Book III, Part I, Ch 1, we read about this triple classification of all realities." ***** S: 2. Turning to the Dhammasangani itself: Under Avyaakataa Dhammas (elaborating on the first lines of the Matika) in #987 (U Kyaw Kline transl): "What are the dhammaa which are neither meritorious nor demeritorious? There are dhammaa which are the resultants of meritorious and demeritorious dhammaa of the Sensuous Sphere, the Fine Material Sphere, the Non-material Sphere, and the Supramundane which are the aggregate of Sensation...Perception...Volitional Activities....Consciousness, there are also dhammaa which are neither meritorious nor demeritorious nor are resultants but are non-causative actions; there is also all that is Corporeality and also the Unconditioned Element (Nibbaana)." ***** Hope this clarifies my comment. Let me know if there's anything else. Metta, Sarah ======= #78731 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Dieter & Ken H, --- Tep Sastri wrote: <..> > 1. Five Piles of Bricks. The Khandhas as Burden & Path > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/khandha.html > > 2. Emptiness > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/emptiness.html > > Dieter, do you want to act as a "marriage councelor" or as a sponsor of > the "arm wrestling" match? <....> ... S: Very funny! I also hope Dieter can act as referee or mediation counsellor perhaps and encourage you both back to the armwrestling. 'Patience, courage and good cheer' as you throw those punches (and punch-lines)in which you excel! Metta, Sarah ======= #78732 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: India, Nepal memories - Oct. 2007 jonoabb Hi Chris Christine Forsyth wrote: > Thanks Andrew. Nice to read you. :-) > > Upasiva seems to be asking from the pov of the individual being. > With Anatta, I understand (theoretically) the idea of No Self. > > It would have been good if the Buddha had said something > like: "Well, you know, Upavisa, we've often talked about anatta > before and how there is really no being, only dhammas that rise with > blinding speed and fall away, not staying for even a moment .... so > once you've realised there is no individual self, there is freedom > from the bonds of kamma and repetitive re-becoming. What then > happens is .... or, All that there is, is .... > Listening to a recording of the trip to India in 2004, I came across a similar question to the one you ask here, namely, as to why the Buddha didn't just say directly "there is no self". I think you'd find the ensuing discussion worth a (re-) listening-to ;-)). Also, the reference to attachment to having more panna than we do. (See: http://dhammastudygroup.org; 'India, October 2004' (the last set on the page); 'E. Savatthi (hotel): 01' -- starting at about the 4 mins 45 secs mark) One thought that occurs to me is that to be told "There is no self" doesn't really help much, in that that is just a piece of (conventional) information, whereas the development of the path involves the understanding by direct experience of the true nature of dhammas. The 'not-self' characteristic is a part of this understanding. There can be no real appreciation of 'not-self' as taught by the Buddha until there is a certain level of understanding of the khandhas, i.e., of what 'dhammas' are. > I guess any answers I've seen in Theravada seem to be a version of > Parrot Dhamma - quotes from long dead writers - nothing experienced. > This was probably just exasperation on your part speaking, but I don't think the length of time for which an author has been dead has any bearing on the truth or value of the contents of the author's work, especially where the subject under discussion is universal truths (for that matter, it could be argued that the suttas themselves are "quotes from a long dead writer"). ;-)) Jon #78733 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) jonoabb Hi Dieter Dieter Möller wrote: > Hi Jon ( Howard and others) , > > you wrote: I don't know of anything in the ancient texts, correctly understood, > that says that in order to develop awarenss or insight it is necessary > (or advisable) to undertake a 'practice' consisting of particular mental > activities, that is to say, something done for the express purpose of > arousing awareness or insight. > > > D: Jon, I am afraid one need to copy a big part of the Canon to show you otherwise. > > For a beginning please have a look at ... A.N. I 26 ( extract ) > > 297. Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing, it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction. What is it? It is recollecting the Teaching, ... re ... the Community, ... re ... virtues, ... re ... benevolence,. ... re ... gods ... re ... mindfulness of in breaths and out breaths, ... re ... death, ... re ... mindfulness of the body, ... re ... mindfulness of appesement . If this single thing is recollected and made much, it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction. > > ...with the question whether a 'practice consisting of particular mental activities 'is involved? > Thanks for coming in on this thread. Yes, the question is, as you say, whether a 'practice consisting of particular mental activities' is involved. The passage you have quoted doesn't actually talk about the recollections as being mental activities to be undertaken as a practice. What it says is that if those recollections are *developed* they lead to extinction. It is the manner of this development that is the question here. Is there a 'practice' for this development? Let's take the first recollection, recollection of the Teachings, as an example. I do see that as being a matter of recitation or deliberate pondering-over. I understand it to be (something like) moments of appreciation of the teachings based on one's (limited degree of) developed understanding. Such moments may well occur spontaneously in the course of one's normal daily reading and studying of, or reflection on, the Dhamma. Compare this with a mental activity undertaken as part of a dedicated 'practice', with the idea that the activity itself is kusala or is likely to result in moments of kusala during the course of the practice. Hoping I have managed to highlight the issues here. Jon #78734 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:56 pm Subject: Typos/DC Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality upasaka_howard Hi again, DC - In a message dated 11/15/2007 11:31:42 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: I may be misunderstanding what you write above, DC, but if not, then my thoughts on sympathetic joy are different from yours. I do agree that what is good is truly good for others (as opposed to what they may happen to want) is good for all, including me. But sympathetic joy isn't self-oriented; it is pure happiness at the good fortune of others *for* those others. ============================ That doesn't parse! ;-)) The second sentence is messed up. The paragraph should read as follows: _____________________ I may be misunderstanding what you write above, DC, but if not, then my thoughts on sympathetic joy are different from yours. I do agree that what is truly good for others (as opposed to what they may happen to want) is good for all, including me. But sympathetic joy isn't self-oriented; it is pure happiness at the good fortune of others *for* those others. ------------------------------------ With metta, Howard #78735 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] bangkok upasaka_howard Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/16/2007 2:13:39 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@... writes with regard to studying with Khun Sujin in Thailand: I must say that, in comparison, reading on dsg, which for some reason attracts many members who do not appreciate Abhidhamma, seems of limited use, although it is inspiring to see the enormous patience of Nina, Sarah and Jon everyday. ============================== Subtle, Robert, though not so subtle that I don't seem to sense an iron fist beneath the velvet glove or at least the thought of such. Certainly it isn't surprising that you along with as all of us would like things to be just as we want them to be. But isn't that a part of the tanha that besets us all? With metta, Howard #78736 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:19 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (70) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 17 13. Viisatinipaato 5. Subhaakammaaradhiitutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 367. "Ta.m sakko devasa"nghena, upasa"nkamma iddhiyaa; namassati bhuutapati, subha.m kammaaradhiitaran"ti.- Imaa gaathaa abhaasi. 365. Sakka, the lord of beings, approaching by supernormal powers with a group of devas, reveres that Subhaa, the Smith's daughter. txt: Imaa kira tisso gaathaa pabbajitvaa a.t.thame divase arahatta.m patvaa a~n~natarasmi.m rukkhamuule phalasamaapatti.m samaapajjitvaa nisinna.m theri.m bhikkhuuna.m dassetvaa pasa.msantena bhagavataa vuttaa. 365. They say these three verses were spoken of by the Blessed One in order to praise her, pointing out that therii to the bhikkhus after she had gone forth, had attained the state of Arahatship on the eighth day, and had entered into the acquisition of the fruition state seated at the foot of a certain tree. txt: Atha sakko devaanamindo ta.m pavatti.m dibbena cakkhunaa disvaa "eva.m satthaaraa pasa.msiiyamaanaa aya.m therii yasmaa devehi ca payirupaasitabbaa"ti taavadeva taavati.msehi devehi saddhi.m upasa"nkamitvaa abhivaadetvaa a~njali.m paggayha a.t.thaasi. Ta.m sandhaaya sa"ngiitikaarehi vutta.m- "Ta.m sakko devasa"nghena, upasa"nkamma iddhiyaa; namassati bhuutapati, subha.m kammaaradhiitaran"ti. Then Sakka, king of the devas, saw this incident with his divine eye. And then he said, "Since this therii is being praised by the Teacher, she should be honoured by the devas." And he went to her straight away together with the devas of the Taavati.msa realm. They greeted her respectfully, paid respects with raised hands together, and stood [on one side]. 365. Sakka, the lord of beings, approaching by supernormal powers with a group of devas, reveres that Subhaa, the Smith's Daughter. Tattha tiisu kaamabhavesu bhuutaana.m sattaana.m pati issaroti katvaa bhuutapatiiti laddhanaamo sakko devaraajaa devasa"nghena saddhi.m ta.m subha.m kammaaradhiitara.m attano deviddhiyaa upasa"nkamma namassati, pa~ncapati.t.thitena vandatiiti attho. Subhaakammaaradhiitutheriigaathaava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. Viisatinipaatava.n.nanaa ni.t.thitaa. There, having obtained the name lord of beings (bhuuta-pati) - being the lord (pati), ruler (issaro), of beings (bhuutaana.m), of creatures (sattaana.m), in the three [planes] of sensuous existence - Sakka, king of the devas, approaching by the supernormal powers of a deva together with a group of devas, reveres, pays homage with the fivefold prostration, that Subhaa, the Smith's Daughter, herself. Here ends the commentary on the verses of Therii Subhaa, the Smith's Daughter. Here ends the commentary on the section of twenty [verses]. ::::::::::::::::: *CAF Rhys Davids: Psalms of the Sisters, with the Chronicle from the Commentary by Dhammapaala entitled 'The Elucidation of the Highest Meaning'. PTS 1909 @ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html *Wm Pruitt: The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis: Theriigaathaa-A.t.thakathaa, Paramatthadiipanii VI by Aacariya Dhammapaala. PTS 1999 *txt/cy: vri cscd, tipitaka.org ::::::::::::::::: peace, connie #78737 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta of "Self" and the World upasaka_howard Hi again, Charles - In a message dated 11/16/2007 4:37:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dacostas@... writes: Dear Howard, My old friend, you almost got my feathers ruffled :-) ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I really like that "my old friend," Charles! I return that warm feeling! :-) We do strongly disagree on this matter, Charles. But so what? That's fine. In any case, I regret the near-ruffling. I wish you only calm and peace, and I would prefer to play no role in pushing you in the other direction. :-) ----------------------------------------------------------- I have to quote you: " IMO, ... ==================================== With metta, Howard #78738 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for your elaborate explanation. I do not have Dhammasangani. So I cannot check. Not that I do not believe you or Nina, but I want to verify everything before I accept. Therefore, I will keep it ‘pending’ and I will try to get Dhammasangani and come back to you later. Respectfully, Han #78739 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:29 am Subject: Re: A Quick Question on Conditionality scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for the query: P: "...could I ask you to say a bit more about how you learned it was natural decisive support condition?" Scott: I learned from experience. The concept 'natural decisive support condition' was give me by Nina and Sarah, but long after the fact of 'learning' about it. This first 'learning' was wordless. There is nothing like Absence to support the pure experience of clinging. The experience of wanting what one can't have is pure suffering. Out of total immersion in desire for what is gone and pure suffering came an idea concerning the teachings of a Buddha. Along with this came what I only later learned intellectually was saddhaa because it suddenly was not a matter of doubt as to whether the Buddha taught Truth, it was only a matter of proceeding to learn what this Truth was. I'm glad that I learned that the only real learning is always quick and wordless and I'm also glad that the Dhamma exists in words and that others have learned this first and did give words to serve as shadows by which to conceptualise post hoc. This, I think, defines natural support condition as it works naturally. Sincerely, Scott. #78740 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:57 am Subject: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] truth_aerator Hello Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > --- Alex wrote: > > As I understand Alaya Vinnana is NOT a self or a soul. And mind IS > > NOT some absolute, it is actually an 'error' rather than some good > > source from which everything comes and where everything returns. > .... > S: Could you clarify what you understand vinnana to be. By 'error', do you mean 'mind' as translation of vinnana? Sorry, I've appreciated your >>>> 1) Ignorance -> sankhara -> Vinnana <-> Nama-Rupa. If there is ignorance, it will condition Sankharas. Sankharas condition vinnana. Vinnana conditions Nama-Rupa. Etc. If Ignorance ceases, then sankhara cease. If Sankhara cease, than Vinnana ceases. If Vinnana ceases than nama-rupa ceases. 2) Another explanations. If you could sit down and totally remove all cravings, then you would enter in Nirodha Samapati (9th Jhana) where obviously you do not feel or perceive anything. 3) Craving produces "duality" (something to grasp at and something that grasps). If one realizes that there are NO static categories (ie subject-object) then all consciousness will cease (atleast at Parinibbana or during sitting meditation). > .... > > Furthermore, where is Kamma stored? We could be dealing with issue of > > semantics rather than doctrinal issues. > ... > S: Does kamma have to be 'stored' anywhere? Yes, it may be a question of semantics. Is the salt 'stored' in the ocean? > > Metta, > > Sarah > If Kamma is not stored anywhere, then what causes Kammic effects? How can there be results of greed, if causes "greed" isn't stored anywhere? Lots of Metta, Alex #78741 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:07 am Subject: Re: Typos/DC Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality dcwijeratna Dear Howard, I think I get what you mean. I was self-centred. My concern came from my own happiness. Is that what you mean? I'll assume that "yes" is the answer to the above. If so, as human beings, that is how we act according to DO--avijjaa paccayaa sa"nkhaaraa. When there is delusion there is willed action. Basically, what I wanted to convey was the fact that I am happy at other peoples happiness; at least I don't envy that, irrespective of their relationship to me. What I was trying to do in my e-m was to show how I arrived at this position as a rational human being. My use of 'muditaa' might have been inappropriate. But my position is very close to that. Really, I don't see any difference. Now regarding Upanisa. Just one point at a time. dukkhuupanisaa saddhaa. Here dukkha does not refer to 'suffering'. But to 'pancuupaadaanakkdhaa' (the five agreegates of grasping). Well, at this point I move away from traditional interpretations. What do you think? D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78742 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:08 am Subject: Fwd: Standing A Young Woman Up .... In My Dream This Morning abhidhammika --- In BuddhistWellnessGroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: Dear Dr Des, Regine Wong and all How are you? This morning (16 November 2007) I had a very unusual dream. The scene of location was the City area in Canberra that means a busy shopping centre. I met a young woman whose dress seemed to be in black. She said she needed a shopping bag to carry a mixture of sand and rubbish. So I went up to a nearby Chinese restaurant in which I saw white vapour and many empty seats as it was still too early for lunch. There I requested a staff to give me a spare shopping bag. When he turned and went to get a shopping bag, I woke up and the dream ended. The young woman would still be waiting for my return with an empty shopping bag! Or would she? Did she see me returning to her with an empty bag as she requested and expected? Or would she be very angry as I did not return and stood her up (leaving her waiting forever)? Those were my thoughts after waking up from my dream. How do you feel about the above situation? With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- End forwarded message --- #78743 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:09 am Subject: Re: A Quick Question on Conditionality philofillet Hi Scott Thanks for your feedback. > P: "...could I ask you to say a bit more about how you learned > it was natural decisive support condition?" > > Scott: I learned from experience. The concept 'natural decisive > support condition' was give me by Nina and Sarah, but long after the > fact of 'learning' about it. This first 'learning' was wordless. > > There is nothing like Absence to support the pure experience of > clinging. The experience of wanting what one can't have is pure > suffering. Out of total immersion in desire for what is gone and pure > suffering came an idea concerning the teachings of a Buddha. Ph: Could it be said that natural decisive support condition would be a blend of this worldless, intense learning along with perhaps past concepts of Buddhism that you would have picked up along the way through life, that these ingredients met and saddha resulted? Something like that? Along > with this came what I only later learned intellectually was saddhaa > because it suddenly was not a matter of doubt as to whether the Buddha > taught Truth, it was only a matter of proceeding to learn what this > Truth was. Ph: That's cool. > I'm glad that I learned that the only real learning is always quick > and wordless and I'm also glad that the Dhamma exists in words and > that others have learned this first and did give words to serve as > shadows by which to conceptualise post hoc. This, I think, defines natural support condition as it works naturally. Ph: OK Scott, this is a tough nut that I will gradually get into. Thanks! Metta, Phil #78744 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) buddhistmedi... Hi Han, - The only Abhidhamma book online I've seen is Narada Thera. A Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammattha Sangaha). But if you can find an e-book of Dhammasangani, then please let me know too. Thanks. Tep ==== #78745 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:28 am Subject: Re: Typos/DC Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality upasaka_howard Hi, DC - In a message dated 11/16/2007 9:08:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dcwijeratna@... writes: Dear Howard, I think I get what you mean. I was self-centred. My concern came from my own happiness. Is that what you mean? I'll assume that "yes" is the answer to the above. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) -------------------------------------------------- If so, as human beings, that is how we act according to DO--avijjaa paccayaa sa"nkhaaraa. When there is delusion there is willed action. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, sense-of-self based volition. (The Buddha also acted with intention, but his action was kiriya.) ------------------------------------------------ Basically, what I wanted to convey was the fact that I am happy at other peoples happiness; at least I don't envy that, irrespective of their relationship to me. What I was trying to do in my e-m was to show how I arrived at this position as a rational human being. My use of 'muditaa' might have been inappropriate. But my position is very close to that. Really, I don't see any difference. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think I understand: There is a variety of approaches, including various forms of reasoning, that can turn us in good directions. --------------------------------------------------- Now regarding Upanisa. Just one point at a time. dukkhuupanisaa saddhaa. Here dukkha does not refer to 'suffering'. But to 'pancuupaadaanakkdhaa' (the five agreegates of grasping). Well, at this point I move away from traditional interpretations. What do you think? ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, I'd have to hear more. Initially, at least, this doesn't resonate with me. (That doesn't mean you're wrong, of course! LOL!) ----------------------------------------------- D. G. D. C. Wijeratna ======================== With metta, Howard #78746 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:36 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta of "Self" and the World truth_aerator Dear Charles, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > By defining, "knowing" requires a knower > (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/knowing%20 > ). I am afraid you missed the point. The Buddha did believe in beings, and them being trapped in the rounds of samsara, he also believed in the reincarnation. The difference is that He defined the self as: compounded (the 5 to 6 aggregates), impermanent (arises and fades due to causes), and a source of suffering. >>>>>> Buddha has taught about a Dynamic Process where there is no place for Static concepts. While he did use concepts, he did not cling to them. Knowing does NOT require a knower. If all knowing would cease, would Knower be present at that time? NO. Knower is a SELFISH and delusionary perception/concept not found in carefully examined dynamic reality. "Citta, these are the world's designations, the world's expressions, the world's ways of speaking, the world's descriptions, with which the Tathagata expresses himself but without grasping to them." -DN9 "This is the extent to which there are means of designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e., name-and-form together with consciousness." -DN15 Remember that. > >>>>> > When it is raining or snowing - Some Clouds are The Rainer or Snower! >>>>> Any what is this or that cloud? A static concept labelled onto a dependently originated process... >> > The error the Buddha pointed out was the Brahmans had the wrong definitions (i.e., understanding or view). If not, then how could the Buddha have seen HIS past-lives? >>>>>>>> Buddha has seen past AGGREGATES within a particular "His" stream. Not an atta being reincarnating. Brahmins were also very prone to speculating and being unwise in that regard. Buddha has correctly reframed speculations from "What exists" to pragmatic "What is to be done. Stress and its cessation" Lots of Metta, Alex #78747 From: "nichiconn" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) nichiconn > > The only Abhidhamma book online I've seen is Narada Thera. A > Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammattha Sangaha). > > But if you can find an e-book of Dhammasangani, then please let me > know too. > dear tep, google book search! c. #78748 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) dcwijeratna Dear Sukin, I started to write this in the usual way 'Thank you for your e-m..' and stopped. And I thougt if I write in the following way my intention would be clearer. Whatever, I do is mine (sabbe sattaa kammassakaa). Only the present is real. Now on a personal note. I myself get angry; most times I manage to control it. Occasionally, it bursts out. When that happens I acknowledge it and then make a determination not to repeat it. Really the whole of the enforcement of discipline in Vinaya is based on that principle. Let me also say this. I have mettaa (friendliness) for you. That is a sincere statement. It comes from a deep conviction through experience that the Buddha's advice "Hatred can never be conquered..." With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78749 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:38 am Subject: Re: Typos/DC Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality dcwijeratna Dear Howard, Two points (1) ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think I understand: There is a variety of approaches, including various forms of reasoning, that can turn us in good directions. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- DC: Reasoning based experience. Yes. If not what are the other ways? (2) ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - Howard: Mmm, I'd have to hear more. Initially, at least, this doesn't resonate with me. (That doesn't mean you're wrong, of course! LOL!) ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- DC: Then, saddhaa doesn't mean confidence, trust, or faith. All these are based on belief. That is to accept something as true without proof (or justification or verification). With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78750 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:56 am Subject: Re: Typos/DC Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality upasaka_howard Hi, DC - In a message dated 11/16/2007 10:39:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dcwijeratna@... writes: Dear Howard, Two points (1) ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think I understand: There is a variety of approaches, including various forms of reasoning, that can turn us in good directions. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --- DC: Reasoning based experience. Yes. If not what are the other ways? --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The entirety of Dhamma practice: Creating calm and clarity of mind by guarding the senses (observing sila) and by meditation, and cultivating vijja by an ongoing practice of mindfulness and careful attention to whatever arises. -------------------------------------------------------------- (2) ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- - Howard: Mmm, I'd have to hear more. Initially, at least, this doesn't resonate with me. (That doesn't mean you're wrong, of course! LOL!) ------------ --------- --------- --------- -------- DC: Then, saddhaa doesn't mean confidence, trust, or faith. All these are based on belief. That is to accept something as true without proof (or justification or verification). --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We're not communicating here, DC. What didn't resonate with me was dukkha not referring to suffering but to the grasped-at khandhas in the context of dukkha --> saddha. I'm not getting your point or the reason for it. -------------------------------------------------------- With mettaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna ============================ With metta, Howard #78751 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:13 am Subject: Re: Typos/DC Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality moellerdieter Hi Alex and Howard, just a feedback .. I Iiked to read : Alex: If so, as human beings, that is how we act according to DO--avijjaa paccayaa sa"nkhaaraa. When there is delusion there is willed action. ------------------------------------------------- Howard:Yes, sense-of-self based volition. With Metta Dieter #78752 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:18 am Subject: Re: Typos/DC Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality dcwijeratna Hi, Howard, One meaning of dukkaha is --the five aggregates of grasping-- So that expression I can use that instead of "suffering" In any case to traslate dukkha as 'suffering' is not correct, according to Dhamma. It could mean many things. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78753 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma, Suttas & Meditation truth_aerator Hello all. I have question for Abhidhammikas here. Why study Abhidhamma? How does it help on the path? Personally when it comes to seeing not self, Anattalakhana sutta DN#9, DN#15, MN#1, MN#18 (to name a few) are really helpful, deep & insightful. Through understanding & reflecting, etc, I can't intellectually consider anything as "I me mine, myself". Those suttas are so "heavyweight" that any other logical proofs are simply not needed. Also, considering that EVERYTHING is "anicca,dukha, anatta, sunyata" what is the point in learning and enumerating 100s of Dhammas and 24 conditional relations between them IF THE PRACTICE IS THE SAME? Satipathana is "ekayano maggo" and meditations such as anapanasati develops it and 7 factors of awakening. --- In practical terms, distinguishing among categories is worthwhile only if you have to treat each of the different categories in a different way. A doctor who formulates a theory of sixteen types of headaches only to treat them all with aspirin, for example, is wasting her time. But one who, noting that different types of headaches respond to different types of medications, devises an accurate test to differentiate among the headaches, makes a genuine contribution to medical science. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/untangling.html ------ Also if N8P develops ALL the required qualities for enlightment, why not follow it? Somewhere Scott (or RobertK) has said something like "Practice needs to be Right Practice" and I agree. In the suttas such as MN# (1,2,106) the Buddha has stated why some people (even if they reach 8th Jhana) do not get awakened and why some do. The answer is simple (in theory) but hard in practice. Don't attach to the resultant equinimity of Jhana. Non Buddhists attach, while Buddhist detach. Non Buddhist don't go far enough toward total freedom, freedom from everything including "oneself". In other suttas Buddha has also stated that one shouldn't crush mind with mind - another helpful advice. One of the reasons why Sutta study is prerequisite is because it teaches "What is to be Done?". What to do and what to avoid. Abhidhamma and other higher "Buddhist" philosophies are fascinating and all. However they beg the question about practicallity... Meditation is the lab where one can practice the principles of anicca -> dukha -> anatta and practically put them in action. "Suppose that an archer or archer's apprentice were to practice on a straw man or mound of clay, so that after a while he would become able to shoot long distances, to fire accurate shots in rapid succession, and to pierce great masses. In the same way, there is the case where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html Notice the Buddhist part of the Jhana (Insight & detachment ). Regarding Merit and Wisdom: How much merit did Angulimala have to go and murder 999 people + attempting to murder the Buddha? How much wisdom he had? How much demerit did Angulimala get from 999 murders? Also in the suttas Buddha has said that Metta is the highest worldly merit... ---- Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the heart-deliverance of loving-kindness; in shining and beaming and radiance the heart-deliverance of loving- kindness far excels them. -Iti 27 --- Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, if someone were to give a gift of one hundred serving dishes [of food] in the morning, one hundred at mid- day, and one hundred in the evening; and another person were to develop a mind of good-will — even for the time it takes to pull on a cow's udder — in the morning, again at mid-day, and again in the evening, this [the second action] would be more fruitful than that [the first]. "Thus you should train yourselves: 'Our awareness-release through good-will will be cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken. That's how you should train yourselves." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn20/sn20.004.than.html ----- As long as a person hasn't commited 5 heineous crimes (for lay people only 3 are possible today) and isn't dull&stupid (none of the participants in this forum fir this 6th) AN5.129 AN6.87 ... Lots of Metta, Alex #78754 From: Elaine Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 9:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 shennieca Hi Tep, Dieter, KenH, all, The metaphor used by Ajahn Thanissaro about leaving the raft at the river bank after crossing the river, is a commonly used metaphor and I've heard my teachers use the same metaphor many times. The raft is the 'self' and when Nibbana is reached, there is no use for the raft anymore. The raft has served its purpose and it is already useless, so we leave the self (raft) behind. We don't need to get attached to this raft (our body/our self) when Nibbana is attained. I understand Ajahn Thanissaro's explanation that when Nibbana is attained, the raft becomes a burden, so we just leave the raft behind. Ajahn Thanissaro explained everything according to the Buddha's teachings. I don't see the point KenH is trying to make. I truly respect Ajahn Thanissaro. Ajahn is one of the most learned and virtuous monk in this era. May Ajahn accumulate lots of merits by teaching us the real Buddha dhamma. Sadhu! Warmest regards, Elaine #78755 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) buddhistmedi... Hi Connie, - Thank you for giving a clue. > > T: > > The only Abhidhamma book online I've seen is Narada Thera. A > > Manual of Abhidhamma (Abhidhammattha Sangaha). > > > > But if you can find an e-book of Dhammasangani, then please let me > > know too. > > > > dear tep, > google book search! > c. > T: My Google- search keys were: e-book, Dhammasangani. But what I got is not an e-book of Dhammasangani., but e-books about Dhammasangani instead. What have you got? Tep === #78756 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 moellerdieter Hi Ken H , you wrote : 'I'm not sure I understand the simile given below: (quotation from Nyanaponika) "As to the relation of the teachings of the Abhidhamma to those of the Sutta Pitaka, two very apt comparisons given in a conversation by the late Venerable Pelene Vajiranana, Maha-Nayakathera of Vajirarama, Colombo, may be added, in conclusion: The Abhidhamma is like a powerful magnifying-glass, but the understanding gained from the Suttas is the eye itself, which performs the act of seeing. Again, the Abhidhamma is like a medicine container with a label giving an exact analysis of the medicine; but the knowledge gained from the Suttas is the medicine itself which alone is able to cure the illness and its symptoms, namely craving rooted in ignorance, and the suffering caused by it." D:_It seems to me - using above simile- that you would only take the medicine when knowing the exact ingredients before..' please explain, what you do (not) understand .. KenH: Suttas are not magic spells that we hear and automatically become enlightened. (I know you will agree with that.) They need to be thoroughly understood. D: yes KenH.: That usually entails finding someone who can explain them to us. Then we need to consider and discuss what we have heard, over and over again. Gradually, in this way, understanding will grow. D: take for example Anguttara Nikaya : most of the Suttas are very clear , easy to understand , conventional teaching ..when it comes to more complex ones , it is expected that one first tries to reflect its meaning , pondering about and to examine it further ..and then , having still question , looking for an expert who may help understanding. Insight needs own research ..always a danger to accept hearsay KenH: Every sutta needs to be understood in the context of the Dhamma as a whole. D: a big yes .. when we both agree that Dhamma as a whole means in essence the 4 Noble Truths. KenH: Many (though not all) are in conventional language. And so they will need to be explained in paramattha (Abhidhamma) language. Sometimes, a student may not see how a particular sutta relates to the dhammas that are arising now. In that case he has missed the whole point. He needs to consider the sutta again, from a fresh angle. D: I disagree ,Ken ....(cart before the horse) first of all you need to know the base message and then - far enough in the studies /training - one may observe/examine the arising and ceasing of phenomena ( quality) in the here and now, certainly with the possibility of seeing some suttas in a new light... KenH.: It's a very difficult business. Sutta study should never be attempted without help. D: big disagreement ;-) being a kind of ' kalama -minded' , i.e. relying on my own , I give credit and respect to the Dhamma guidelines to be a challenge for seeing by one's own experience but not at all a blind belief or looking for help when one is expected to walk on own's one feet. but perhaps I have misunderstood you.. KenH:Sariputta taught his students the Abhidhamma. And I am sure they, in turn, taught it to their students. D: I have a nice sutta for you .. need to look for.. KenH: The wiser the student the less need for detailed explanations. Someone like me needs to start with the most basic of instructions. For example, I had to learn (from my friends at DSG) the difference between concepts and realities. Then, for the first time, I could see a truly unique and profound meaning in the suttas. Before that, my version of Buddhism wasn't much different from the conventional religions I had so strongly rejected. Of course, I wouldn't have admitted that at the time. :-) D: Ken , as you say 'Someone like me needs to start with the most basic of instructions.For example, I had to learn (from my friends at DSG) the difference between concepts and realities' , which is a very specific way of your own development which can not be generalized . There is nothing said within the instruction of the Noble Path training which tells us about the relevance of learning about that difference nor do I remember to have read any sutta references. You and your friends surely have noticed by numerous questions and discussions that many others fail to understand the relevance , respectively its clear distinguishment. Perhaps because you explain it only in your terms of language ..? KenH: "Practical path application," yes, that is what it's all about! D: yes.. all is about (the will ) how to manage .. KenH: According to my understanding, practical path application is a matter of conditioned dhammas. Ultimately, everything is a matter of conditioned dhammas. D: ultimately the whole universe is 'a play' of elementar particles.. but where is the relevance to my suffering .. in particular ageing,sickness and death..? with Metta Dieter #78758 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:45 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 3, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, In India I had a conversation about concepts with Acharn Sujin: Nina: “We forget to develop understanding of realities when we read the newspaper. We are absorbed in the news about events that occur such as wars.” Sujin: “We take the stories for reality but actually they are contained in one moment of thinking. We can develop understanding of realities, no matter where we are, whatever event occurs.” Nina: “We have accumulated so much forgetfulness of realities.” Sujin: “We should listen to the Dhamma, consider it and develop more understanding.” On other occasions we spoke about fear we may have on account of the truth of non-self: Sujin: “The world appears dark and lonely without people. There are no family, no friends. There is nobody in this room.” Nina: “Where is the gladness on account of the Dhamma?” Sujin: “There can be gladness on account of paññå that knows the truth. You cannot change the characteristics of realities that make up the world. They are only elements. One should be very sincere as to oneís own development of understanding. When someone is frightened it shows that paññå has not sufficiently been developed. When he realizes this, he should be courageous to continue developing paññå. The concept of self is deeply rooted.” She also reminded me: “There is no Lodewijk, there is just our own world of thinking, thinking of Lodewijk. When we were born we were alone. When seeing, we are alone, there is just citta that sees. We are alone because there is no self. Seeing arises and then thinking of the world of concepts and this hides the reality of seeing, visible object and the other realities.” Each citta that falls away conditions the arising of next one, this is one of the many conditions for citta: anantara-paccaya, contiguity condition. Our life is an unbroken series of cittas, otherwise we could not stay alive. Cittas arise and fall away extremely fast. We see only what appears through the eyes, but it seems that we see and immediately know that this or that person is there, this or that thing, and that we also at the same time have like or dislike of what we see. In reality there are countless moments of cittas succeeding one another. The fact that many impressions seem to occur all at the same time shows that cittas arise and fall away, succeeding one another extremely fast. Cittas arise in succession, without a pause in between, and therefore, good and bad qualities, kusala cetasikas and akusala cetasikas, can be accumulated from moment to moment, from one life to the next life. Attachment, aversion, loving kindness or understanding can be accumulated so that there are conditions for their arising again and again. ****** Nina. #78759 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Q. to Elaine, no 1. nilovg Dear Elaine, Op 14-nov-2007, om 20:30 heeft Elaine het volgende geschreven: > Elaine: It is possible to see/experience/understand the rise and > fall of these citta, cetasikas and rupa but I believe it is only > possible when there is very good continuous wise attention, > concentration and with no gaps in the mindfulness. This continuous > mindfulness can only be attained during very high-level meditative > experience. ------- N: Experiencing the rise and fall of dhammas begins at the third stage of tender insight and becomes clearer at the first stage of Principal insight, mahaa-vipassanaa. The stages of insight are not supramundane until enlightenment is attained. Only at the moment of enlightenment lokuttara cittas arise. The third stage of vipassana cannot be reached unless there has been the first stage: clearly distinguishing the characteristic of naama from the characteristic of ruupa. Continuous mindfulness of naama and ruupa is not possible. When seeing or hearing arises, these are vipaakacittas without sati. We lead our daily life and it is in daily life that understanding of naama and ruupa is to be developed, very naturally. Also akusala citta that arises has to be known as only a dhamma, otherwise it cannot be eradicated. At the moment of akusala citta there is no mindfulness, but when it has just fallen away its nature can be known as it is: as is a conditioned dhamma that is not mine. Then there is kusala citta with sati and pa~n~naa that have as object akusala dhamma. --------- > E: I read that the speed of Citta (consciousness) arising, abide > and cease is extremely swift. ..... > Since a citta functions so fast, it must be quite an incredible > ability to be able to experience this citta and cetasika arising > and ceasing at this very moment. I personally have not seen any > citta arising. -------- N: When pa~n~naa is fully developed it is very fast. Do not worry, it depends on pa~n~naa to perform its function. Nobody should try and catch the different cittas. But pa~n~naa has to be developed from the beginning on. First the difference between reality and concept has to be known. And also the difference between the moments there is no sati and the moments with sati. Only pa~n~naa can realize this. It is of no use to think of stages of vipassana and to think about it who has attained it. ------ > > E: Are you able to observe citta and cetasika in this moment? I > often hear Abhidhammikas say they know and understand this arising > and passing away of citta at this very moment, do you know what is > the method that they use to observe it? > ------------------- > N: Do we have to believe what others say? Again, pa~n~naa has to be > developed from the begining on. There is no specific method. > ------------ > > Nina: I think that it is good to keep in mind the general > principles like: citta, cetasika and rupa in daily life. One can > develop more understanding of these realities as they appear in > daily life. > > Elaine: Can you please explain how you develop the understanding of > these realities as they appear in daily life? What are the > realities that you experience? Can you please give an example? > > ------------------- > N: There are seeing that experiences visible obbject, hearing that > experiences sound, the experience of hardness, heat, all day long. > These are dhammas we all experience, but we do not realize that > they are dhammas, we take them for self and mine. When we have > listened to the teachings again and again there are conditions for > the arising of sati sometimes, if we do not try, if there are no > expectations. Lobha is counteractive. How to develop understanding is your question. Attending to the characteristics of dhammas that appear, but pa~n~naa and sati perform their functions, not we. The right attitude is very important. If 'we' try very hard and want to have continuous mindfulness, this is motivated by an idea of self. That is the wrong way. Our aim is developing more understanding, detachment from the idea of self. I quote again from my India 2, what Kh Sujin said about sati: < When sati arises it does so because of its own conditions. It arises unexpectedly. One follows the wrong Path if one tries to have sati. There is nobody who can control sati, induce sati. It is aware whenever it arises and there is no selection of objects of awareness. Understanding can see that it is anattaa. The understanding of anattaa will develop more and more so that all kinds of realities can be seen as anattaa.> --------------- Nina. #78760 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:20 am Subject: Abhidhamma Q., to Elaine, no 2. nilovg Dear Elaine, I make it into two posts. This is no 2. N: The Buddha showed the way: development of right understanding so that there will be less ignorance. Tep explained about the anusayas or latent tendencies. ....They are accumulated in each citta and I remembered that you found that this may seem like a store consciousness. …..A talent is not something static, it develops. Elaine: You are right, it is possible to develop abilities, that is why we can develop our mind until it is totally free from all latent taints and defilements. This mental development may take many, many aeons, but I believe it is attainable. -------------------- N: Otherwise the Buddha would not have taught us. Good to realize that it takes aeons, considering the amount of ignorance we have. --------- > Nina: Some people are born musical, and that stems from past lives, > where else could it come from? > > Elaine: You are right, there are old kamma that are brought over > from past lives. ------- N: This is not due to kamma but to accumulated inclinations. Kamma is a deed that produces vipaaka such as seeing or hearing. Kusala or akusala we perform now is accumulated so that kusala and akusala can arise again. ------- > E: We also make new kamma every moment in this present life - every > action, every word, and every thought creates new kamma. -------- N: I would not say every moment. When thinking of a glass of water that we want there is no kamma. There are so many thoughts, even slight akusala, but this is not motivating an evil deed. --------- > E. The most important thing is the intention. If our intention is > to cause no harm, to do good, and to purify our mind, I think we > are following our Buddha’s teachings. > I think being a Buddhist does not have to be too complicated. A > person does not have to understand anatta to do dana. Doing dana is > a universal wholesomeness that is recognized in every religion. :-)) -------- N: I agree. As you said in another post: kusala is kusala. Nina. #78761 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] bangkok nilovg Dear Robert, thank you for your letter from Bangkok. I am glad you are able to attend the English session. You will greatly enjoy the Thai sessions, and I think as you attend you will learn Thai at the same time. Reading Thai is very useful, then you can follow the sutta and Co reading on Saturday morning. Anumodana for your donation for the urn. As I understood, Kh Sujin and others will go to Bodhgaya in January to bring new containers for the reliques, since the old ones were to light and could easily topple when wearing them on the head. I hope to read more letters from you, also about the discussions. Nina. Op 16-nov-2007, om 8:13 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > Nina asked me to write about how it is living in Thailand. I stay > about > 80kms out of Bangkok and drive in every weekend to attend the > Saturday English session with Khun Sujin. #78762 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:39 am Subject: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 buddhistmedi... Hi Sarah, - I appreciate that you did not say it was a silly joke. ;-) > >T: > > Dieter, do you want to act as a "marriage councelor" or as a sponsor > >of the "arm wrestling" match? <....> > ... > S: Very funny! I also hope Dieter can act as referee or mediation > counsellor perhaps and encourage you both back to the armwrestling. > 'Patience, courage and good cheer' as you throw those punches (and > punch-lines)in which you excel! T: It might turn out to be a non-stop fight of the century. Tep ==== #78763 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) moellerdieter Hi Jon, you wrote: 'I think we agree on the basics, namely (a) that anatta as a characteristic of conditioned dhammas gradually becomes known as insight is developed, and (b) that the characteristic of anatta is not *fully* penetrated until arahantship is attained. D: yes Jon: (As I understand it, the situation is the same regarding the other 2 characteristics of conditioned dhammas: anicca and dukkha.) D: not really the same .. it is not by chance that anatta is mentioned as the last one Jon: So taking your earlier statement that "up to the state of arahantship anatta is a (hypo) thesis", I would say that prior to arahantship the characteristic anatta is partly known, but is fully known only at arahantship.Have I addressed the point you wished to make? D: yes Jon: Well that would depend on whether they were simply explaining the teachings as they understood them (at an intellectual level) to be, or were claiming to speak from personal experience/knowledge. I don't see any problem with the former (as long as the comments are not 'personal' to the recipient -- perhaps there is a problem here with the way it comes across some times). D: when we consider the agreement before , that full prenetration takes place only at Arahatship , then I miss sometimes the insert ' so I have read.. ' so far I have understood' instead of that statements come some times across in a way of a general claim Jon: There may have been a misunderstanding here. I don't think there was anything in my earlier comment suggesting a lack of respect for the 3-fold training of sila, samadhi and panna. What I was saying is that as insight/panna is developed (with the 5 khandhas as object), the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta become clearer and clearer. That is to say, there is no special and *separate* training set down for developing the panna that knows the characteristic of anatta in particular. D: I did not mean especially you but my impression of previous discussions . We may say, that the idea - as I understand it -of the 3fold path training is - by moral , meditation has its foundation and by meditation the insight into the 3 characteristics is supported.. (sila -samadhi-panna ... 3,4,5, - 6,7,8- 1,2) , that is the (by the Buddha recommended ) training set Jon: I think the 2 statements are, well, complementary ;-)), this is to say: - There is only the 'Dhamma', and all 3 pitakas are talking about the same Dhamma, and - The Sutta and Abhidhamma pitakas should not be considered as separate entities but as complementary to each other. D:yes ,all to be seen in context with the 4 Noble Truth Jon: Thanks for all your comments. Apologies for the delay in my reply D: thanks for your answer , nice to talk to you.. no need to apologize .. I still wonder how Sarah and you manage all the responses . not to talk about the kind way ;-) with Metta Dieter #78764 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: vipaka. Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) nilovg Dear Sarah and Han, a good discussion. I have a few thoughts, but no solution to Han's point. A moment of seeing is very short and we do not even know whether seeing is kusala vipaaka or akusala vipaaka. But there can be many moments of such seeing, arising shortly one after the other. When thinking of a great loss such as loss of a dear person, that has some consequences for one's whole life, I would say. Now, it is difficult to distinguish the actual moments of vipaaka from the many moments of thinking with sadness, which are due to defilements. We read in the Sutta about gain and loss, and here vipaaka is explained in a conventional way. But we learn that such is life, that they change all the time. It happens because of conditions. Loss is hard to accept but it can be done with pa~n~naa. Nina. Op 16-nov-2007, om 10:15 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > I accept that accumulation of kusala and akusala is of > a very great consequence, but I find it difficult to > accept that vipaakas are very brief and > inconsequential. #78765 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 moellerdieter Hi Tep , KenH and Sarah , you wrote : 'Dieter, do you want to act as a "marriage councelor" or as a sponsor of the "arm wrestling" match? In either case, try persuade him not to cheat anymore and show me his willingness to behave properly by diligently reviewing the two articles (that he earlier refused to discuss). Then I will gladly consider coming back to the armwrestling match. D: dear friend Tep, actually I neither want to act as a "marriage councelor" nor as a sponsor of the "arm wrestling" match, but no objections if you include in your mail to me messages to Ken in lack of direct communication as done above .. nevertheless I would be glad if we all participate in the forum to find a conclusion , even when it only comes to the point of stating/summarize the different views . with Metta Dieter #78766 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:20 am Subject: Re: Typos/DC Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality upasaka_howard Hi, DC - In a message dated 11/16/2007 11:18:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, dcwijeratna@... writes: Hi, Howard, One meaning of dukkaha is --the five aggregates of grasping-- So that expression I can use that instead of "suffering" In any case to traslate dukkha as 'suffering' is not correct, according to Dhamma. It could mean many things. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna ============================ The word 'dukkha', I believe, is used both as noun and adjective. As adjective it means "unsatisfactory" or "unsatisfying". As noun it can mean "suffering" (i.e., mental pain) and "unsatisfactoriness" (a characteristic of dhammas). In saying that the five grasped-at aggregates are dukkha, I take that 'dukkha' usage to be the adjectival one. I do not take 'dukkha' to be a synonym for the five grasped-at aggregates. Certainly, the five grasped-at aggregates are not sources of satisfaction - in fact they are quite the opposite, but the term 'dukkha' is not a name for them. With metta, Howard #78767 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 moellerdieter Hi Ken H (Tep , Elaine and others ), just picked up following passage and coming back to the other points later. you wrote: Here, we were talking about B Thanissaro's account of "putting down the raft." I think we should leave that subject for a while. You want to give BT the benefit of the doubt, and that's fine by me. Just so long as you realise that there is at least a question mark (in the minds of most Dhamma students) over his unorthodox teachings. D: may I remind what I wrote to you before : D: quoting from MN 22 (extract ,transl. TB) 'Monks, I will teach you the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said: "Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. 7 Having crossed over to the further shore, he might think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having hoisted it on my head or carrying on my back, go wherever I like?' What do you think, monks: Would the man, in doing that, be doing what should be done with the raft?" "No, lord." "And what should the man do in order to be doing what should be done with the raft? There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft. In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas." unquote D: Ken, you cannot dispute a sutta excerpt (i.e. MN 22) without losing credibilty in particular to judge the Venerable's Dhamma interpretation. We are not talking about B Thanissaro's account of "putting down the raft." but about a wellknown canonical source . In case you doubt the correctness of the Venerable's translation it should be up to you to provide evidence . It seems to me that you still do not recognise your mixture of nibbana and pari nibbana, which I recommend you to discuss with friends too instead of leaving it aside. with Metta Dieter #78768 From: Elaine Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:44 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Q. to Elaine, no 1. shennieca Hi Nina, Thank you for your e-m. You have provided a lot of info. I need a bit more clarifications. -------- Nina: When seeing or hearing arises, these are vipaakacittas without sati. Elaine: I have heard that seeing and hearing are vipaka citta (resultant consciousness). Why is it seeing or hearing are without sati? Without sati (mindfulness), is it possible to see or hear? ----- Nina: We lead our daily life and it is in daily life that understanding of naama and ruupa is to be developed, very naturally. Elaine: Will this mundane daily life understanding of nama-rupa develop naturally until it reaches the tender stages of Insights? Will it be that, one day I suddenly or gradually get enlightened because I read so much and talked so much about nama and rupa? Is this a Buddhist belief? -------------- Nina: Also akusala citta that arises has to be known as only a dhamma, otherwise it cannot be eradicated. Elaine: How do you define a dhamma in the above sentence? Can you give an example of an akusala citta and the ‘moment of knowing’ it, by using conventional language? -------------------- Nina: At the moment of akusala citta there is no mindfulness, but when it has just fallen away its nature can be known as it is: as is a conditioned dhamma that is not mine. Then there is kusala citta with sati and pa~n~naa that have as object akusala dhamma. Elaine: The above sentence is true and theoretical. I hope to understand/experience it someday. --------------- Nina: When pa~n~naa is fully developed it is very fast. Do not worry, it depends on pa~n~naa to perform its function. Nobody should try and catch the different cittas. But pa~n~naa has to be developed from the beginning on. Elaine: You say nobody should try and catch the different citta, but how do you notice this kusala and akusala citta that you always talk about? I am interested in talking about nobody. Let’s say, there is this nobody called A and another nobody called B - why and how do A and B become different in characters, ignorance and wisdom? What makes the avijja and panna, which cannot be controlled in conceptual people (which are nobody according to the abhidhamma) become developed or eradicated? If A’s and B’s mind and matter cannot be controlled, and if A gets understanding faster than B, why and how the conditions for A became better than B’s? What is the explanation for this? Thank you. With mettaa, Elaine Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:07 pm Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) m_nease Hi Rob (and Phil), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: ... > Dear Phil > I assume it is this section of the Visuddhimagga that Nina mentions in > Abhidhamma in Daily Life > > http://www.vipassana.info/nina-abhi-21.htm > "The 'Visuddhimagga' (III, 129) also states that one should sever any > impediments to the development of samatha. Among them are one's > dwelling, travelling and sickness. These can be hindrances to samatha. > One should avoid living in a monastery which, for various reasons, is > unfavourable to the development of samatha. "" > > and in her book The World in The Buddhist Sense, > http://www.dhammastudy.com/WIBS3.html > > ""In the Visuddhimagga (III, 29) we read about the ten impediments. > These are: dwelling, family, gain, class (students), building, travel, > relatives, affliction (sickness), books and super-normal powers. As > regards dwelling, for those who cultivate samatha the dwelling is only > an impediment if it distracts one or if one has many belongings stored > there. As regards family, this refers to relatives or a family of > supporters who present food or other requisites to the monk. They can > be distracting from the development of calm. As regards gain, this > means here the four requisites of the monk. If he receives requisites > from people all the time, he has to give them blessings and teach them > Dhamma. In this way he will be engaged continuously. Class means > students of suttas or students of Abhidhamma. If the monk has to teach > students he has no opportunity for the development of samatha. > Building means the construction of a building. This is always an > impediment for samatha since one is engaged in seeing to the work. > Travel is an impediment for samatha since one's thoughts are occupied > with the journey. With the impediment of relatives is also meant the > monk's teacher or pupil or others he is dwelling together with. If they > are sick they are an impediment for samatha since they preoccupy him. > Affliction is any kind of illness. It is an impediment when it causes > suffering. As regards books, this is responsibility for the scriptures, or > recitation of the scriptures. When he is engaged with these matters it > will distract him from the development of samatha. It is said that nine of > the ten impediments are hindrances only for samatha. They distract one > from its cultivation. "" > Robert Thanks for re-posting these, Rob. The implications would be hard to over-stress I think--at least if one takes Buddhaghosa's advice from twenty centuries ago at least as seriously as that of twentieth century innovators. mike #78781 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:46 pm Subject: google book search - Tep nichiconn Dear Tep, sorry, I was rushed this morning. Where the standard google search page says Web, Images, ... more? Under more? is Books. That will take you to the BookSearch page. Now, you a librarian! I'm not sure what an e-book isn't & just discovered this island myself. surfs up, connie #78782 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Larry: "When you feel sad (mental feeling) can you detect a feeling apart from the physical feeling sensations?" Sarah: "Of course, ..." Larry: That's what I wanted to know. Our experience is very different. I cannot detect any other phenomenon that could be characterized as feeling, apart from what is commonly called "heart ache". I had a further question but it may not be relevant given our differences in experience. Perhaps someone else might be interested: In the case of a person who has a leg amputated there can still arise pain in the missing leg. This clearly shows that pain is nama but it is interesting that the pain seems to arise in the missing leg. I am guessing that this pain has the same characteristics as ordinary leg pain: throbbing, sharp, "hot", something that we would usually call physical. If these physical characteristics are thought to be rupa, perhaps there needs to be an adjustment to what we understand to be rupa, since they are clearly nama, as in the "phantom" pain. In any case abhidhamma agrees there is no pleasure or pain without a body. Larry #78783 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:39 pm Subject: Re: KenH's Thoughts on Self and No Self # 34782 sukinderpal Hi Tep and Ken H, ============ Tep: I was not surprised to see another Anti-Thanissaro-Bhikkhu ('ATB') besides KenH. Perhaps, one reason why you and your 'alter ego' KenH dislike the venerable is what he wrote about the 'no self' view such as the following. Sukin: :-) ========== Tep: TB: "If the world and the people in the story of your life don't really exist, then all the actions and reactions in that story seem like a mathematics of zeros, and you wonder why there's any point in practicing virtue at all." Sukin: Do you really believe that Ken and I see no point in practicing virtue? If not, perhaps this may give a clue as to why some people including TB, do not quite understand what some of us mean by "Anatta" and this implying "no person"? That TB can see it no other way but conclude that `no person' means no point in practicing virtue reflects his lack of appreciation of the fact of this being the function of conditioned "dhammas", and is *not* something done by persons. It seems that he is absolutely convinced about Anatta being nothing but a strategy….? ========== T: It is much easier for a person whose view is not biased (because of hate, dislike) to clearly see the venerable's deep meaning of the Not- self Strategy : it is a cleverly-designed questioning approach which is "based around the khandhas" as anatta. He indeed follows the Buddha's questioning strategy like the following. "Is it constant or inconstant?" "And is what is inconstant stressful or pleasurable?" "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'? Sukin: Clever perhaps yes, but wisdom, this is what we need to find out and concern ourselves with. When the Buddha made those statements, his audience knew to various extents and through direct experience, what form, feeling, perception, formations and consciousness were. For them the Buddha's words could therefore condition *insight* into the Tilakkhana at that very moment. TB apparently has taken the "idea" to apply to states of mind regardless of whether those are accompanied by Panna of the level of satipatthana / vipassana. Is he in fact attempting a short cut? ;-) ========== Tep: The venerable suggests we use the concept of the khandhas to deconstruct passion and delight on the khandhas which creates suffering. He also suggests that we use (or employ) the khandhas "as needed for whatever skillful uses you see fit". That reminds me of the Buddha's famous 'raft simile'. Sukin: There is no getting around the need to come to know through and through the nature of Tanha directly with insight. Here, even the first level, namely that of the Tanha accompanying Miccha Ditthi requires lifetime over lifetime of direct understanding before it can be eradicated. And surely even this can't bypass the various vipassana nnanas and all the understandings that these bring. Even in the practice of Samatha the akusala is only suppressed by virtue of the arising of certain kusala dhammas increasingly. What kind of kusala with / without panna, is TB suggesting by his method, if it is not satipatthana / vipassana nor is it samatha / jhana, what is it? To me it looks nothing more than philosophy / psychology, a playing around with ideas with the hope of there being a change of perspective. And it does not remind me of the Buddha's famous 'raft simile'. ;-) ========== Tep: The Buddha proclaimed the Truths. He taught the practice for realization of the Truths. Tranquility and insight have to be developed by each individual. I do get the impression that his suggested questioning strategy on the khandhas is for the purpose of realization of the Truths. It has nothing to do with attitude. Sukin: As I said above, it does not appear to be either Vipassana nor it does Samatha, so what kind of Bhavana could this be? ========== >Sukin: To me there is a *huge* difference between these two ways of looking at what the Buddha taught. And I consider B. Thanissaro's way to be very misleading, a result of his own inability to correctly grasp the Dhamma. Tep: I completely disagree, Sukin. The venerable explains how the Buddha employed "stories and world views" as a strategy to serve a puirpose as follows: "He recounted the stories of people's lives to show how suffering comes from the unskillful perceptions behind their actions, and how freedom from suffering can come from being more perceptive. And he described the basic principles that underlie the round of rebirth to show how bad intentional actions lead to pain within that round, good ones lead to pleasure, while really skillful actions can take you beyond the round altogether." Tep: Only a very smart monk who has tremendous knowledge of the Dhamma (principles & practice) can write something like that. Sukin: So you are saying that the above could condition Kammasakatannana in you? Just kidding. ;-) You are obviously impressed by TB, so perhaps I am missing something. To me, stories are stories, pure concepts. The wise on hearing the Buddha relate some past life incident; will know exactly what the Dhamma /dhammas being referred to are. And if he is wise enough, his attention will be drawn to some presently arisen dhamma and this will be accompanied by insight. Dhammas are dhammas, these are what `makes itself felt' regardless of whether we acknowledge it or not. TB appears to want to make a story out of these dhammas and hopes that this will lead to Nibbana? No chance! All that said Tep, I must say sincerely, that I appreciate all that the Venerable has done, namely translating into English, the Suttas and Patimokkha. For this I hope that he has accrued much merit and wish that this will bring him the best of future rebirths, particularly one in which he may get to hear the Dhamma from the right wise friend (and come to finally appreciate the Abhidhamma ;-)). And btw Tep, I was given a copy of his then latest book, from his own hands. :-) So no Tep, I have no hatred towards him whatsoever, never did. But I do understand given the way I express myself here, that it sounds as if I do. With Metta, Sukin. Ps: Again I am quite behind in my reading, so please expect some delay in my response. #78784 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:06 pm Subject: Re: google book search - Tep buddhistmedi... Dear Connie, - Following your instruction to the Google's book search is easy. I found several hard copies of the Dhammasangani (for off-line reading), but, alas, no electronic version (i.e. eBook for on-line study). Thanks. Tep === #78785 From: Elaine Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) shennieca Hi Larry, I'd like to present my views, please correct me if I'm wrong. There are physical pain (suffering) and mental pain (suffering). If we get a paper cut on our finger, the nerves from our finger sends a signal to our brain and the brain recognizes it and knows it as pain. It is the brain that detects all these bodily sensations. In Buddhism, we say that it is the mind that is conscious of the bodily pain. The body is like a data receiver, it does not process the data, it detects only. There are emotional pain, e.g. feelings of sadness, grief, worry, stress, fear, these are mental pain. It comes from thoughts, intellect-sense. It is made by the mind and the mind detects it. I think, physical and mental pain can influence each other. For example, at this moment, my head feels heavy because I didn't sleep well last night. I was worrying about some things and I had insomnia, so the worrying caused a headache. I think, when Goenka said feelings, he meant all types of feelings, physical and emotional. If someone wants to separate each type of feelings, it is okay. It is only a matter of words and semantics. The nature of pain whether they are physical or emotional... are the same: they are anicca, dukkha, anatta. If we realize their real nature, then we are free from them. Warmest regards, Elaine ----------------- #78786 From: "jonoabb" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:49 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) jonoabb Hi Dieter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > you wrote: > > 'I think we agree on the basics, namely (a) that anatta as a characteristic of conditioned dhammas gradually becomes known as insight is developed, and (b) that the characteristic of anatta is not *fully* penetrated until arahantship is attained. > > D: yes > > Jon: (As I understand it, the situation is the same regarding the other 2 characteristics of conditioned dhammas: anicca and dukkha.) > > D: not really the same .. it is not by chance that anatta is mentioned as the last one Jon: Interesting. Could you say more about how the special significance of the 'anattaa' characteristic, compared to the other 2 characteristics? Thanks. > Jon: Well that would depend on whether they were simply explaining the teachings as they understood them (at an intellectual level) to be, or were claiming to speak from personal experience/knowledge. I don't see any problem with the former (as long as the comments are not 'personal' to the recipient -- perhaps there is a problem here with the way it comes across some times). > > D: when we consider the agreement before , that full prenetration takes place only at Arahatship , then I miss sometimes the insert ' so I have read.. ' so far I have understood' > instead of that statements come some times across in a way of a general claim Jon: I think that sort of qualification is to be taken as given in a discussion list such as this. I would always assume a member to be paraphrasing the texts rather than speaking from direct personal experience ;-)) > Jon: There may have been a misunderstanding here. I don't think there was anything in my earlier comment suggesting a lack of respect for the 3-fold training of sila, samadhi and panna. What I was saying is that as insight/panna is developed (with the 5 khandhas as object), the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta become clearer and clearer. That is to say, there is no special and *separate* training set down for developing the panna that knows the characteristic of anatta in particular. > > D: I did not mean especially you but my impression of previous discussions . > We may say, that the idea - as I understand it -of the 3fold path training is - by moral , meditation has its foundation and by meditation the insight into the 3 characteristics is supported.. (sila -samadhi-panna ... 3,4,5, - 6,7,8- 1,2) , that is the (by the Buddha recommended ) training set Yes, but we need to consider closely and in detail what the Buddha said about the development of samadhi and panna. Readings vary from person to person ;-)) > Jon: Thanks for all your comments. Apologies for the delay in my reply > > D: thanks for your answer , nice to talk to you.. > no need to apologize .. I still wonder how Sarah and you manage all the responses . not to talk about the kind way ;-) Thanks for the comments, Dieter. Appreciate your useful contribution. Jon #78787 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Sarah (Nina, Tep, Elaine, Connie), I found the following Pali text in Dhammasanga.nii, Katame dhammaa abyaakataa? Kusalaa-kusalaanam dhammaanam vipaakaa kaamaavacaraa ruupaavacaraa aruupaavacaraa apariyaapannaa vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakhandho sankhaarakkhandho vi~n~naanakkhandho, ye ca dhammaa kiriyaa neva kusalaa naakusalaa na ca kammavipaaka, sabba~nca ruupam asankhataa ca dhaatu, ime dhammaa abyaakataa. This Pali text is the same as the translation you have quoted. "What are the dhammaa which are neither meritorious nor demeritorious? There are dhammaa which are the resultants of meritorious and demeritorious dhammaa of the Sensuous Sphere, the Fine Material Sphere, the Non-material Sphere, and the Supramundane which are the aggregate of Sensation... Perception. ..Volitional Activities.. ..Consciousness, there are also dhammaa which are neither meritorious nor demeritorious nor are resultants but are non-causative actions; there is also all that is Corporeality and also the Unconditioned Element (Nibbaana)." ---------------------------- Han: So, Sarah, as usual, you win again :>) I can never win! Only one thing left. You said vipaakas are inconsequential. I said they are consequential. That was the only difference now. So we can stop at this point on this topic. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han > > S: Abyaakataa dhamma also includes all rupas and > > nibbana - any dhamma which is not kusala or > akusala. > > #78788 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:39 pm Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) scottduncan2 Dear Mike, I've thought of this from time to time: M: "..The implications would be hard to over-stress I think--at least if one takes Buddhaghosa's advice from twenty centuries ago at least as seriously as that of twentieth century innovators." Scott: I take the Commentators' explanations to be the closest we have in this era to accurate and close-to-the-source explanations of the Dhamma. Arguments regarding the authenticity and accuracy of the Commentaries are academic, especially since the so-called modern innovators are so far removed from the source as to be seen as merely positing theories and speculations. This is done as if Dhamma were like any other philosophical tradition, subject to a meaningful evolution of ideas contributed to by a lively and creative input from innovators. It would seem to me that the aim of an intellectual grasp of the Dhamma ought to be one of approaching as nearly as possible the grasp of the Commentators since they represent the last link to the earliest days of the saasana. The main antagonists to the Commentarial tradition seem to be those advocating a 'sutta only' stance. The problem with this is that the range of interpretations of the suttas that I've come in contact with is so wide, discordant, and speculative that it defies categorisation or systematisation or even rationality. I've yet to see how the sutta-only school amounts to anything more than a way for someone to come to any conclusion they wish and claim concordance with suttas. Sincerely, Scott. #78789 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) lbidd2 Hi Elaine, Thanks for your input, which seemed agreeable to me. But the basic question is, what is your experience of feeling? Can you locate both mental and bodily feeling in the body, or is one or the other disconnected from the body, like an idea or some other non-physical phenomenon? Let's start with first identifying the experience before we try to fit it into the conceptual frame-work. You are no doubt feeling an emotional feeling right now. Can you describe it in any way? Not the concepts associated with the feeling, but the feeling itself. For example, I have little pains circling my upper waist, probably due to some unknown anxiety. All my mental feeling I can locate in my body. Is your experience of feeling different? Larry #78790 From: matt Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:14 pm Subject: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) mattroke Hi Phil, PHIL: One thing I find myself thinking about these days is "how do we know that our awareness of dhammas is not just more clinging to concepts" because it seems to me that most of what I see in Abhidhamma will not be object of awareness but could be turned into a conceptual object of clinging by a mind too eager for wisdom. And because this object is defined as "paramattha" one might be more likely to fail to see it as a concept that one is clinging to. MATT: I don’t think that clinging to conceptual Abhidhamma is the only thing we should be wary of. When studying Dhamma there is always the danger of clinging to concepts or ideas about ourselves and Dhamma. If one does not appreciate the need to understand the true nature of realities that are arising and falling away at every moment, then these Abhidhamma and Dhamma concepts, like all concepts, will be an obstacle to insight. With regard to Abhidhamma I find it is best to only embrace that which I can, intellectually, experience and which I can appreciate is something that arises and falls away. The rest of the Abhidhamma is conceptual, however, when we have a better understanding of realities the rest does seem to make sense and we can appreciate that only a person of the highest wisdom would be able to see the workings of Nama and Rupa in this way. It also helps to re-enforce the understanding that there are only realities that have no abiding self. Matt #78791 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:38 pm Subject: Re: Typos/DC Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality dcwijeratna Dear Howard, I am off for the week-end. Shall send a reply on Monday. Aren't we getting deeper and deeper? Just for you to ruminate: PED [PTS dictionary] has a full article on dukkha. If you don't have a copy you can visit DSAL website: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:2483.pali Happy reading. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #78792 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:40 pm Subject: Re: A Quick Question on Conditionality scottduncan2 Dear Phil, Thanks for the reply: Ph: Could it be said that natural decisive support condition would be a blend of this worldless, intense learning along with perhaps past concepts of Buddhism that you would have picked up along the way through life, that these ingredients met and saddha resulted? Something like that?" Scott: Maybe later in our discussion we could bring in the actual Abhidhamma explanation of natural decisive support condition, but for now I'll just suggest that there is only conditioned and conditioning dhammas and the forces between them. This is all that is meant by conditional relations - complex, ongoing interactions between dhammas. This would not include a blend of anything as far as I know. The sadhaa arising out of the'wordless intense learning' would be conditioned, and the experience of suffering would be conditioning. I knew virtually nothing about the Dhamma or the Buddha prior to turning to it about a month after the death of my wife - nothing but the most broad and stereotypic notions. I suppose, although useless to speculate, any previous contact with the Dhamma would have to be considered to come from past existences, not this one. Sincerely, Scott. #78793 From: matt Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:46 pm Subject: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) mattroke Hi Phil (again), PHILl: I find myself thinking a lot about a talk you had with Christine and others, about "does the spice go out of life." I think I've mentioned this before. I'd like to discuss it with you at some point. I think the spice *does* go out of life to some point, must go out, that this is a necessary aspect of the cooling down of proliferation. And if it doesn't go out, the practice is not succeeding in its early stages. MATT: Prior to having any Dhamma knowledge we are very likely to be influenced by people and society that consider lobha to be the source of happiness. On hearing the Dhamma we have a better understanding of what causes happiness and unhappiness and this can be a condition for having fewer gross desires. We may think that there has to be this cooling down and that we must make an effort for it to happen. But, does this cooling down come about because we make an effort? Or is it because we have heard the Dhamma, we have a greater appreciation and understanding of the Dhamma, we have more understanding or the value of kusala and the dangers of akusala, and there is a growth in conceptual wisdom, all of which can condition less attachment and aversion? We may have desires to be a better person and because of conditions that may happen; which then strengthens the concept that *I am in control*. Unfortunately, latent tendencies are waiting in the wings for those conditions to change. . . if not in this life then in some future rebirth. A sotapana has the wisdom to know that there is no self and yet they still have attachment and aversion. So I think there should be more emphasis on growing in wisdom and understanding of the true nature of realities, which can condition wholesomeness and eventually suppress akusala and latent tendencies. Rather than having conceptual concerns about whether we have more kusala and less akusala, which is a mana trip. You may not agree with these concepts, however, if we had insight into the true nature of realities that are arising and falling away, I am sure we would be in agreement. Concepts can lead to arguments, but not realities. So, I side with developing understanding of dhammas, rather than questioning conceptual beliefs. When we have more understanding of realities, the spice may go, but I don’t think *the spice goes out of life*. If we are not growing in that understanding, then maybe there is less spice and we would like it to be more spicy. My apologies if the above does not relate to your question. Matt #78794 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:48 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: A Quick Question on Conditionality scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for: N: "This is so true and sincere, really from your own experience. I do appreciate this." Scott: I'm glad you do. Sincerely, Scott. #78795 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:55 pm Subject: Re: Conditions, Ch17, no3. ...Some Comments... scottduncan2 Dear Tep, I was wondering if you had a reply to my last post to you in this series. I thought I had met your challenge but then no word from you... No worries if not. Sincerely, Scott. #78796 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:04 pm Subject: Re: Typos/DC Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality upasaka_howard Thanks, DC - Have a good weekend! :-) With metta, Howard #78797 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:40 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Thank you for providing the Pali. What I had meant to add was that I was just explaining my earlier comment as you kindly asked about it. In the context of cittas only(consciousness), then of course avyaakatta dhammas only refer then to vipaka and kiriya cittas. So for those contexts, your quotes from the Abhid. book and Nyantiloka's dictionary are correct. So, can we agree that we all win? I prefer it that way:-)) Metta, Sarah --- han tun wrote: > I found the following Pali text in Dhammasanga.nii, > > Katame dhammaa abyaakataa? Kusalaa-kusalaanam > dhammaanam vipaakaa kaamaavacaraa ruupaavacaraa > aruupaavacaraa apariyaapannaa vedanaakkhandho > sa~n~naakhandho sankhaarakkhandho vi~n~naanakkhandho, > ye ca dhammaa kiriyaa neva kusalaa naakusalaa na ca > kammavipaaka, sabba~nca ruupam asankhataa ca dhaatu, > ime dhammaa abyaakataa. #78799 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Okay, dhamma sister, we all win.:-)) Han