#79600 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Dear Robert, I wish to make a very short comment on the following passage from the Satipa.t.thaana commentary: " DC: It appear that whoever wrote the commentary was well aware of the minds of "dogs, jackals and the like." Unfortunately we don't have that ability, and therefore we cannot make head or tail out of what follows." For me the passage is therefore garbage (in computer jargon that is unrreferenced memory) mettaa, DC #79601 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:56 am Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" ashkenn2k Hi Charles Please see these sutta quotes AN:009.11. Fourth on impossibilities http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara4/6-ch\ akkanipata/009-sitivaggo-e.html It is impossible that one come to right view should conclude that pleasantness and unpleasantness is brought about, by oneself, by an outsider, by oneself and an outsider, not brought about by oneself nor arisen without a cause, not brought about by an outsider nor arisen without a cause and to conclude that pleasantness and unpleasantness is not brought about by oneself, by an outsider or arisen without a cause. What is the reason? There, bhikkhus, the one come to right view, has thoroughly seen the reason that pleasantness and unpleasantness arises on account of some reason. Bhikkhus, these six are impossibilities. A. VI, 13: "Volition is action (karma), thus I say, o monks; for as soon as volition arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or mind. Cheers Ken O #79602 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina... dcwijeratna Hello Robert, I refer to the following you addressed to Howard: " Robert A: This is an interesting observation since I have always thought of Theravada Buddhism as strongly emphasizing effort and striving, at least from what I have heard from Thai teachers other than Khun Sujin." DC: "Attaahi attano natho" One's refuge is oneself (Dhammapada). The Buddha's teaching is unique in the sense that it is the only teaching that does not depend on Go, gods, or the modern term sacred. Anybody who talks otherwise is ditorting the dhamma and collecting lot of demerit, sufficient to keep them in the lower worlds for many many aeons to come. The Buddha's teaching 'strongly emphasizing' to me is a bit of an understatement. "Samma vaayaama" Right effort is the 5th item in the Noble Eightfold Path. Only path to nibbaan. With respect DC #79603 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khandhas are uncontrollable ashkenn2k Hi Swee Boon ---> > So in your opinion, "self-identity views" always condition volition > > to arise. But can volition arise without the 'conditioning' of > "self-> identity views"? KO: Yes volition can arise without ditthi. It can arise with kusala also in fact all the cittas. >>As the Buddha said, it is possible to point out the inconstant & >> dependently co-arisen characteristic of self-identity views. > > Please let me know if your position is solely yours or that of Khun> Sujin as well. KO: Yes it is possible to point out the inconstant. At the moment of akusala, it is impossible. At the moment of kuasala with panna, it is possible. A citta cannot be both kusala and aksuala. For eg when I am greedy, it is at the moment it is impossible for me to share, thereafter when I reflect on it, non-greed arise in me, it is possible for me to share. Buddha disagrees? Let us see clearly in the sutta <> - (greed with dithi/mana) ... <> - that shows aksuala cittas. <> that is kusala cittas with panna It is a clear distinction of two different situations, one kusala and one aksuala. They do not mixed together. Kind regards Ken O #79604 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina... moellerdieter Hi Howard, I like to develop the thought a bit further .. you wrote: 'Yes, an interesting connection. I can see how this would come to mind' D: you mentioned before that A.S.'s interpretation is downplaying volition.. I would add because its crucial importance is not seen. When all attention is given to the present moment, this 6 senses contact, the path development , especially the medition part of the training is neglected. And we know that by plenty of discussions ... Repeating ones more the quotation: ''...When the desire is silent... will comes to rest and then the world appears to be (pure )imagination ... but by observation /awareness alone the will can not be finally brought to rest , but rises again and all the grace was only a moment of temporary equanimity. Therefore it is not yet the real path to enlightenment.' Volition, kamma forces , cetana , sankhara all seen as synonym to will, makes above very 'theravadish' , does it not? Ignorance (avijja) arises/conditions again and again , bcause insight in what is behind is missing ..i.e. the 8th step , the Jhanas . What do you think? with Metta Dieter #79605 From: Ken O Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self View & Verbal misunderstandings ashkenn2k Hi Johny > I dont understand why conceit cannot occure while self view is > present. What is it about these two cetasikas that contradict one > another. It seems in order to have conceit one has to have a view > of themself. KO: According to Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Commentary. 21. Just in those consciousness accompanied by greed: the word just is to indicate the overall location; the specific location should be understood as in the consciousness accompanied by view, and so on. For one has the conviction of belief in self, etc through understanding things as "mine" in the context [of greed] Since conceit occurs by way of the conceit "I am", it occurence is similar to view's, so it does not occur in the same arising of consciousness as view, as a maned lion [does not live] in the same cave as another of the same kind. Kind regards Ken O #79606 From: "mattroke" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:16 am Subject: Khandhas are uncontrollable ... Apology & Withdrawal... mattroke Dear Tep, I have been a bit tied up, so I am slow to respond to your last post. TEP: You are right on every count except "some degree of aversion" that you thought you saw. It was only 'patigha' or slight annoyance, not an unfriendly action. Then because of that annoyance I was too personal with a self view! Please accept my apology and I promise to keep the self demon in check from now on. MATT: "Slight annoyance" is what I meant when I said "some degree of aversion". I did not think you were trying to be unfriendly, so no need to apologies, although it is appreciated. I understand very well how "self view" and the "self demon" can get out of the cage some times. Matt #79607 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 11/30/2007 11:39:35 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, I like to develop the thought a bit further .. you wrote: 'Yes, an interesting connection. I can see how this would come to mind' D: you mentioned before that A.S.'s interpretation is downplaying volition.. I would add because its crucial importance is not seen. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I see it to be less a matter of not seeing the importance of volition [Since volition is kamma, how could it not be seen as crucially important?] than a matter of understanding volition differently from most other people and also of being influenced by the fact that volition in worldlings and even lesser ariyans is contaminated by sense of self. (Of course, all the factors of the 12-linked D. O. are contaminated by ignorance. That is how we all begin, immersed in ignorance. If only ignorance-free actions could lead to freedom, then the goal could never be attained.) ------------------------------------------------------- When all attention is given to the present moment, this 6 senses contact, the path development , especially the medition part of the training is neglected. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That doesn't follow, as I see it. Meditation as taught by the Buddha pertains exactly to what is occurring "right now". More likely, meditation training is neglected, because it is an intentional activity. -------------------------------------------------------- And we know that by plenty of discussions ... Repeating ones more the quotation: ''...When the desire is silent... will comes to rest and then the world appears to be (pure )imagination ... but by observation /awareness alone the will can not be finally brought to rest , but rises again and all the grace was only a moment of temporary equanimity. Therefore it is not yet the real path to enlightenment.' Volition, kamma forces , cetana , sankhara all seen as synonym to will, makes above very 'theravadish' , does it not? Ignorance (avijja) arises/conditions again and again , bcause insight in what is behind is missing ..i.e. the 8th step , the Jhanas . ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, mindfulness does lead to jhanas. The following material in MN 118 suggests the 1st four jhanas: - - - - - - - - - - "[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'_3_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html#n-3) He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming the bodily fabrication.' "[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'_4_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html#n-4) He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.' "[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind. - - - - - - - - - - - - And the following material from MN 119 explicitly describes meditation leading to the jhanas: - - - - - - - - - - - - "And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "Furthermore, quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities, he enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "And furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies supplying abundant showers time & again, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate & pervade, suffuse & fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born of composure. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born & growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated & pervaded, suffused & filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness. And as he remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- What do you think? with Metta Dieter ================================== With metta, Howard #79608 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) moellerdieter Hi James, you wrote: Yeah, I guess so. In case you were wondering, I wrote to Ven.Thanissaro when I was interested in ordaining as a Buddhist monk. The website for his temple, Wat Metta, reads, "At the end of the year, if they receive the abbot's consent, they are eligible for ordination. A new monk is expected to stay at Metta or at affiliated monasteries in Thailand for at least five years, receiving training in all aspects of the monk's life, before he is allowed to go off on his own." I wanted to know why an ordained monk was expected to stay at WatMetta for five years, when there is nothing in the texts to warrant such a thing. It smacks to me of becoming an indentured servant, or joining a cult. And what does it mean to "go off on his own"? That didn't make any sense to me at all. D: I have been a so-called ' tit ' , that are Thais called , who are ordained for one rainy season , an old tradition in the country. My reason was interest in Buddhism and the cultural aspect in respect to my work as rural development consultant, not ready to make commitment for life. Usually , foreigners / those from different faithes are expected to wait for ordination up to a year or more and commit themselves for a certain period , at least 2 years . I needed several visits at different monasteries before I was accepted for such brief period (background and friends helped) .. .and actually the easier choice is a 3 months retreat observing the 8 precepts, which several Wats offer. Without my experience I probably would have judged similarily like you. But so , I consider 5 years are not too long in order ' to get along with the Order ' and learn about the spirit of the foresty monk tradition.. To go off on your own, means you are not anymore under supervision of a special abott, but free to go where you want ( restricted to one monastery at the rainy season). I assume that such restrictions are covered by the Vinaya.. J: Well, Ven. Thanissaro never answered my questions. My impression is that he doesn't like to be contradicted. He should change the name of Wat Metta to Wat Netta (as in if you go there, you will be caught in a net!! ;-)). D: in case the above makes sense to you , your impression may be wrong and I suppose , you did not 'test' that by writing him again in respect to questions concerning the essay (?) with Metta Dieter #79609 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:08 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy .. Comprehending the Burden .. dacostacharles Dear TS, I agree Charles DaCosta You have made a contribution to the on-going discussion of the Not- self Strategy. Venerable TB's note about the two major camps with opposite views about 'no self' shows that people will always have opposing opinions & interpretation of 'anatta' and 'atta'. The venerable's "strategy" takes the middle ground between the two extremes; i.e. "the strategy of the practice is to comprehend the burden that we each are carrying and to throw it off". #79610 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:12 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et al kenhowardau Hi Howard, (Sarah and Phil), Somehow I missed this message when you first posted it. I noticed it in the 'summary format' and looked forward to reading it in full. It was the same type of message that I had asked Phil to post. But, somehow, when I went back to the expanded page I missed it. Later, I saw your follow-up addressed to DC, and mistook it for the original. I was about to respond (somewhat negatively) when Sarah posted her response. That led me back, at last, to the original, which I am very pleased to read. It was well worth the wait! :-) ----------- H: > 1) The Buddhadhamma is the true pointing at what is real, and the true map of the way to awakening. 2) Because of the very special nature of the Buddhadhamma, the study and contemplation of the Tipitaka not only provides intellectual knowledge of "the real", but also serves to condition the mind to the point of enabling 'cultivation' by which term is understood the (automatic) resultant development of kusala traits including equanimity, purification, energy, ready concentration and attention, keen mindfulness, wisdom, and relinquishment, and this cultivation in turn leads onwards to the four stages of awakening. 3) There is no need whatsoever to intentionally "do" anything, and, moreover, any attempt to do so not only is fruitless, but is counterproductive in that it solidifies sense of self and grasping, and is the diametric opposite of relinquishment. Even the study and contemplation of the Dhamma is not something usefully "done on purpose", again because of involvement of atta-view, but it occurs, if it occurs, because of interest and opportunity as determined by prior conditions ---------------- That's a pretty good assessment for an non-believer! :-) Actually, this goes against one of my pet theories. I believe (believed) that anyone who grasped the no-control/no-formal-practice perspective would automatically be convinced of it. But that would seem not to be the case. Either that or you haven't really grasped it and you are just parroting it. :-) You then wrote to DC: ----- > I agree that some admirers of her teaching tend in that direction - towards what I have referred to as a "randomness view", but I do not believe that engendering such a view is her intention at all. In some ways, as I as I see it, her teaching is close to the wu-wei teaching of Zen, which, in emphasizing anatta, also downplays volition.> ----- I was not so pleased to see that. Here, you are still confusing KS's perspective with a technique of some kind. And, as for 'randomness' or, as DC called it, "things rising without a cause," well, that is so wide of the mark I don't know what to say about it. I don't know who these admirers are who you think fall into that category. (My name is probably at the top of the list.) :-) But I still disagree with you entirely on that score. I mustn't complain! This has been a very interesting exercise, thank you. I look forward to one day seeing Phil write his assessment of the KS approach. :-) Ken H #79611 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:15 pm Subject: Re: Fwd: [dsg] Re: Kin~ncana - To Nina & Sarah hantun1 Dear Nina and Sarah, I am trying to download the the talks in the audio section, Bangkok, August 2006 (Jon, Sarah & friends). Nina: I do not know your computer. I use my control key: ctrl. I touch at the same time the number that I want to download. Push both and then I see a little shield: save coupling as. I use: desk top. There it appears and downloads itself. But as I said, you can simply click and you hear Jon at once. Do not forget to press save (I have this in blue) when downloading. Han: Okay, I press control key. But which number do I press at the same time? -------------------- Sarah: Just to repeat, they are the talks in the audio section, Bangkok, August 2006 (Jon, Sarah & friends). Han: Where is the audio section? Kindl help me please. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #79612 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:48 pm Subject: Audio talks - was: Kin~ncana - To Nina & Sarah sarahprocter... Dear Han (Scott*, Kel** & all), I've just got back from a walk and am about to dash out again, so just briefly: --- han tun wrote: > Sarah: > Just to repeat, they are the talks in the audio > section, Bangkok, August 2006 (Jon, Sarah & friends). > > Han: Where is the audio section? .... S: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Scroll down to below all the archived messages until it says 'Audio Files'. Then scroll down to the one mentioned, August 06 (Jon, Sarah & friends). I'm sorry, I have no idea about downloading (Nina is more technicaly advanced than us, Han!!). Jon downloads onto my i-pod for me. This is what Rob M wrote to someone before and it may help: If your internet connection is not so fast, your player will download a few seconds of audio, play it and then wait until it has downloaded more. My internet connection is fast so I have no problems listening to the full talk without interruption. Rob M: "If your internet connection is not fast, to get around this, you take a two step process: - Download the entire file to your computer (right click and select "Save target as..."); this could take a while as the files are not small - Once the file has been downloaded onto your computer, you should be able to double-click on it and listen without interruption." *I miss Kom - he used to help technically challenged members like us. Perhaps Scott or someone else could give you and others further simple steps if required. **Kel, I thought of you on my walk as I was listened to the fourth (and beginning of fifth) track which relates to one of our earlier discussions on cula sotapannas, sankharupekkha nana and so on. Btw, appreciated your recent message to Alex (if I recall correctly). Many (most) my questions on the recordings are in fact from discussions here, like the first track from discussions with Han (& Nina) on self-view, the second with Nina (& Jim) on jhana as contemplation and burning, the third with Mateesha (& Nina) on ceto-vimutti, the fourth with you and Ven Dhammanando on prior inisght etc. So, I do encourage others to listen and share any further comments/disagreements. As Nina, mentioned, they are not technical because K.Sujin always relates the points to the present moment and also, I'd say, to our basic understanding of dhammas and basic reading of suttas. Metta, Sarah ===== #79613 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:51 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et al philofillet Hi Ken >It > was the same type of message that I had asked Phil to post. Could you reminde me of this? I remember you asking me to explain all the meditation techniques taught in Vism, but not for an understanding of AS's teaching. I don't feel inclined to talk about her these days, but I could bookmark your request for the day that I do! (It will come, surely..) Thanks. Metta, Phil #79614 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 4. philofillet Hi Nina > ------- > No, proximity-condition can only be applied to citta. But ruupas of > the body that fall away are replaced all the time by kamma, citta, > temperature and nutrition. Only, we do not notice this. I see. Are these 4 factors classified in the paccayas? Thanks. > > BTW, you are too late for a good Dhamma talk with Rob K, he left for > Bgk. Unless you can come to Bgk. > You can talk by Email (share this with us), but it is not the same as > face to face. I would love to meet many more listers, like you and > others, in person, it is great and makes all the difference. Yes, that would be nice. Metta, Phil #79615 From: han tun Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:01 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Audio talks - was: Kin~ncana - To Sarah & Jon hantun1 Dear Sarah and Jon, But where are the archived messages? I found on the left column only these: Home Messages Post Files Photos Links. Thanks, Han #79616 From: "shennieca" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. shennieca Dear Robert A, (DC, Nina, all), You asked whether the commentaries are really helpful. I think, maybe some are, but this particular commentary about how "dogs, jackals and the like" know "going" as going, is not very helpful, unless you understand how the animals knows it. I think, for Satipatthana Sutta, the explanation from the Sutta is good enough. By the way, what is the message that the commentator is trying to get across from the meaning of ? Is it "being aware of going as going"? or "Being aware of moving as moving?" With metta, Elaine #79617 From: "mattroke" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:08 pm Subject: Khandhas are uncontrollable ... Partial Controllability ... mattroke Dear Alex, Sorry about the delay getting back to you. ALEX: Well if he had such extraordinary high accumulations from his past lives - why did he in this life commited such horrible deeds? And not once or twice, but 999 times? MATT: That's the nature of samsara. Even though we may accumulate a great deal of wisdom there is no guarantee that in future lives we won't be born into a time and place where conditions take us down a very unwholesome path. ALEX: The murders he did was simply due to conditions? Or was it a volitional choice. MATT: Some would say that it was a volitional choice, but I believe that it is due to conditions. Some people are born into societies that think it is acceptable to kill a family member if they bring shame on the family, and if we were born into such a culture we would more than likely share that view. Others live in an environment that influences a person to do unwholesome deeds and if that was our destiny we may do the same too. We can't choose our next life, so we don't know what conditions will be encountered or what influence those conditions will have on us. ALEX: Or maybe it is because we are doing something wrong. MATT: If we are not enlightened then we are doing something wrong. I think it requires much more than just some type of practice or doing wholesome actions. The Buddha at first hesitated to teach because he appreciated how profound and difficult it would be to understand the Dhamma. What the Buddha taught has to be investigated for its truthfulness, so that wisdom will develop and there is clear comprehension of the true nature of dhammas; which is very different to how we observe things now. Matt #79618 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:23 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et al kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi Ken > > >It > > was the same type of message that I had asked Phil to post. > > Could you reminde me of this? I remember you asking me to explain all > the meditation techniques taught in Vism, but not for an understanding > of AS's teaching. I don't feel inclined to talk about her these days, > but I could bookmark your request for the day that I do! (It will come, > surely..) Thanks. Hi Phil, Here it is again. I didn't mean to ask for an analysis of the Vism., but it would be good if you could jot down two or three short paragraphs the way Howard did. No hurry! :-) Ken H > > Hi Phil, ----- <. . .> Ph: >(As always, when looking at those instructions, I have to wonder how on earth anyone could believe the ancient texts don't teach meditation!!!!) ------ I don't expect you to agree with the hard line, minority, DSG perspective, but I would love to know what you understand it to be. I think you have gone beyond thinking it means "do nothing." So, if you could spare the time to sum up the no-control-no-formal-meditation understanding of, say, those Visuddhimagga "instructions" I would appreciate it. #79619 From: Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:23 pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Audio talks - was: Kin~ncana - To Sarah & Jon jonoabb Hi Han > From: han tun > Date: 2007/12/01 Sat AM 08:01:36 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Audio talks - was: Kin~ncana - To Sarah & Jon > > Dear Sarah and Jon, > > But where are the archived messages? > > I found on the left column only these: > Home > Messages > Post > Files > Photos > Links. You are at the wrong website! Please go the this URL: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Let me know if still not successful. Jon #79620 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. avalo1968 Hello Nina, Thank you very much for the commentary quotes. Reading all of this gives me a strong feeling of where I believe you and I diverge in our approach. Nina: I give an example: when he is walking, he knows 'I am walking'. Some people, maybe not you, take awareness to mean: knowing what you are doing. I quote the Co which is helpfull: Robert A: It is true that when one first reads something like the Satipatthana Sutta, it will not be obvious what is really meant by mindfulness and how one can be in touch with moment to moment experience in a way that brings insight. However, I also believe that there are limits to how much reading commentary after commentary can help you in this regard. The way one learns is by working with the sutta instructions as you find them and doing that over and over again for years and years and gradually you find your way. I do read books such as Soma Thera's "The Way of Mindfulness" and have been reading that one along with Nyanaponika Thera's wonderful book for thirty years and am still reading them now, and will be reading them on my deathbed, most likely, but in the end the light never goes on when you are reading a book, but when you are engaging with your life. Thank you always for your help. You are very kind. Best regards, Robert A. #79621 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. corvus121 > DC: It appear that whoever wrote the commentary was well aware of the minds of "dogs, jackals and the like." Unfortunately we don't have that ability, and therefore we cannot make head or tail out of what follows." For me the passage is therefore garbage (in computer jargon that is unrreferenced memory) mettaa, DC Hi DC This is impressive. In a matter of 3 sentences, you have effectively obliterated the basic premise of the science of ethology and a whole body of some 80 years' scientific work! If you don't have the ability to know the mind of a jackal, do you have the ability to know the mind of a commentary writer? Or your mother? ;~)) Andrew #79622 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hello Robert, I just want to add one comment to your e-m to Nina from my own experience. I have been reading the Satipa.t,thaana for well over 40 years. I remember getting acquainted with it when I was about 17; trying to practice vipassanaa. I haven't even got past the first stage. One thing I have learnt is: there is nothing that you learn without actually practising. The sutta will remain a mere set words. MERE SOUNDS. Nothing more than that. The practice means just to watch the breath (for example). No thinking. Just note. And when you do that and read the sutta again, you discover meanings in the sutta. And now I have come to the following conclusions: dhammas are the units of experience. the only dhamma you really know is your own experience. You cannot know another's mind, or even your own mind as a puthujjana. Well I am not going to 'die.' I'll keep on becoming. May be someday we'll even meet. DC #79623 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:09 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > > > DC: It appear that whoever wrote the commentary was well aware of the > minds of "dogs, jackals and the like." Unfortunately we don't have that > ability, and therefore we cannot make head or tail out of what > follows." For me the passage is therefore garbage (in computer jargon > that is unrreferenced memory) mettaa, DC > > Hi DC > This is impressive. In a matter of 3 sentences, you have effectively > obliterated the basic premise of the science of ethology and a whole > body of some 80 years' scientific work! > If you don't have the ability to know the mind of a jackal, do you have > the ability to know the mind of a commentary writer? Or your mother? > ;~)) > Andrew Hi again DC Sorry, I didn't explain my comment very well. I'll try a bit further. Is there a substantive difference between citta of animals and say, people we are very familiar with? As I understand it, ethology says we *can* make valid conclusions about animal behaviour and many of those conclusions can be predicted to apply to us as well. If we eschew any consideration of animal citta, dismissing it as unknown/unknowable, surely we must do the same for humans, even humans we know very well? And if we do that, are we not left in a situation where most of the discussion on this list either evaporates or is strictly in terms of the dry Abhidhammic analysis I seem to recall you disapprove of? What is there to talk about if we follow your rule? Just wondering ... Best wishes Andrew #79624 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James & all, > > Good to chat to you again:-). James: Good to chat with you also. > > > <. > .... > S: Good point to raise. It depends whether we really think we can do > something or whether we appreciate the understanding of realities right > now regardless of the occasion. James: The use of the word "or" is not warranted in this sentence. These two things are not opposites. If we think we can go and do something, > there is no understanding now of what is appearing, whether it be visible > object, sound or any other dhamma. James: I don't know what you mean by "go and do something". You seem to think that a doing something is separate from nominal reality in time and space. Doing something is doing something right now, right here. There are conditions now to listen and > consider the teachings carefully, but none of these conditions is a self > doing or choosing to do anything. Sarah: Are you telling me that you have eliminated self? The Buddha's teaching is a gradual method. First, one practices with a meditation object, in a secluded spot, for a specific period of time- as is detailed in the Vism. Later, the practice is ongoing, as it has become second nature, and there is no specific area of practice. It takes considerable effort to reverse lifetimes of bad habits. Metta, James #79625 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:28 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) buddhatrue Hi Dieter, > I assume that such restrictions are covered by the Vinaya.. > James: Not that I am aware of. > D: in case the above makes sense to you , your impression may be wrong and I suppose , you did not 'test' that by writing him again in respect to questions concerning the essay (?) James: Not sure what you mean. I think you are probably overanalyzing the situation ;-)) > > with Metta Dieter Metta, James #79626 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Audio talks - was: Kin~ncana - To Sarah & Jon nilovg Dear Han, you see first all the numbers of the messages, but go further down and you will see Eric talks, etc. Push ctrl key (left of keyboard), this is the control key, and at the same time put cursor on desired number you want to hear. click on it. Nina. Op 1-dec-2007, om 4:23 heeft het volgende geschreven: > ou are at the wrong website! Please go the this URL: > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ #79627 From: "Robert" Date: Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:12 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. avalo1968 Hello DC, Thank you for sharing your experience with me. Best Regards, Robert A. #79628 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 12:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Audio talks - was: Kin~ncana - To Sarah & Jon hantun1 Dear Nina, Jon gave me further instructions. Now I have succeeded in downloading, and I am listening to the tapes. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #79629 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 12:22 am Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Audio talks - was: Kin~ncana - To Sarah & Jon hantun1 Dear Jon, It works! I am now listening the tapes. Thank you very much. metta and respect, Han #79630 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 1:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Audio talks - was: Kin~ncana - To Sarah & Jon nilovg Dear Han, wonderful. Do share your observations with us. Nina. Op 1-dec-2007, om 9:20 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Jon gave me further instructions. > Now I have succeeded in downloading, and I am > listening to the tapes. #79631 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 1:24 am Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et al philofillet Hi Ken Why are you defining a question you asked about Vism. in terms of A.S. Bad, Ken, bad! Remember, it is not about the teacher, or "teacher" as Jon calls her, it is about the ancient texts!!! :) Ken, I think you've made a good point in the past asking why we don't see the detailed meditation instructions in the suttanta, but if you reads the Samadhi section of Vism you'll find the most explicit, detailed instructions, about how to make kasina, about how to count the breath, about how to walk on alms in order to keep the domain of the meditation. Hundreds and hundreds of instructions. To think that they are not conventional activities done by people after reading that - well, if you can do that, great. I sure can't, and don't want to, because it's *nutty!* No doubt that the path, if and when developed, will reveal that there are no people, not in real terms. And no doubt that dhammas aren't controllable. The conventional activities done in line with traditional instructions such as those found in Vism (and clearly implied in the suttanta) and more modern instructions have an important influence on the way the dhammas are influence, or condtioned, or whatever. But they can't be strictly controlled. Sitting and intending to watch the breath is not a dhamma, it's a conventional activity, it can be controlled, obviously. What kind of bhavana ensues from there is beyond control, also obviously as far as I can see. Ken, I really recommend that you check out the section on impediments in Vism. That's much, much, much firmer ground on which to stand when discouraging meditation. There is real reason for modern meditators to moderate their expectations after studying that section. But saying that it shouldn't be done because there is self view involved is not found anywhere except when doing the Sujin Twist! :) Self view is eliminated by bhavana, bro, we gotta start we we are, not where we wanna be. (Thanks as always for that one, Howard!) Ken, you asked for my post, and you can respond but I don't want to talk about meditation techniques here anymore. I'm going to do it off list, or at Dhamma-List. This forum is already busy enough anyways. Metta, Phil #79632 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 1:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self View & Verbal misunderstandings sarahprocter... Hi Ray (Ra?) & Alex, Ray, good to see your messages again after a long break from posting! (I thought the sign-off with 'Ra' was a typo until I saw the same in your second message - pls clarify sometime.....) --- Raymond Hendrickson wrote: > The Buddha says that these questions might be put by "wanderers of > other > sects" who might "confute you with the simile of the infant?" The > Buddha > gives the answer to each within the body of the text you quoted...from > Middle Lenght Diccourses....."Yet the underlying tendency to personality > view lies within him......Yet the Underlying tendency to doubt lies > within > him" etc for each of the questions.... later in the Sutta he gives the > way > to the escape from arisen personality view, etc....Ra .... S: Good comments...Just because the wrong views are not arising now (as in the case of an infant or a bug doesn't mean that it's been eradicated. The anusaya (underlying tendency) is there. If the wrong views never arise and manifest and are never known for what they are, they can never be eradicated. The only way such knowledge and eradication can occur will be through the development of insight. Look forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah ======== #79633 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 2:03 am Subject: Any Suttas describing Buddha eating Meat? christine_fo... Hello All, While discussing the brief article below with friends a question was raised as to whether the Buddha actually is recorded as eating meat in the Nikayas. If so, can anyone give me exact references to this? Extract from article which caused the discussion:. "There are differences of opinion between Buddhists on this issue so we will attempt to present the arguments of those who believe that vegetarianism is necessary for Buddhists and those who do not. Vegetarianism was not a part of the early Buddhist tradition and the Buddha himself was not a vegetarian. The Buddha got his food either by going on alms rounds or by being invited to the houses of his supporters and in both cases he ate what he was given. Before his enlightenment he had experimented with various diets including a meatless diet, but he eventually abandoned them believing that they did not contribute to spiritual development. The Nipata Sutta underlines this point when it says that it is immorality that makes one impure (morally and spiritually), not the eating of meat. The Buddha is often described as eating meat, he recommended meat broth as a cure for certain types of illness and advised monks for practical reasons, to avoid certain types of meat, implying that other types were quite acceptable. However, Buddhists gradually came to feel uncomfortable about meat eating." http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/dharmadata/index.htm metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #79634 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et sarahprocter... Hi James, (Ken O & all), We're going to have to disagree on this thread, James:-) --- buddhatrue wrote: >>S:...It depends whether we really think we can > do > > something or whether we appreciate the understanding of realities > right > > now regardless of the occasion. > > James: The use of the word "or" is not warranted in this sentence. > These two things are not opposites. .... S: When there is the idea (not just the words) that *we* can do anything, self-view is there. When there is an understanding of present conditioned dhammas, there is no self-view. I liked the way Ken O wrote about a similar point in #79293. He wrote: Ken O: "I must do this action in order to be enlighted, then self has already arisen. No way could panna arise. The reason when we say do not purposely to arise panna because we could be feeding the self. <...> As I said earlier, citta thinks, tendency is the a pivotal influence, cetasikas are the partners. The strength of how we think would be depending on how much we understand it. The more we understanding this nature, the easier we would break the strangulations, its bonds. Understanding of this nature is not possible with one thinks one will it because as I said panna and self are exclusive." ****** > >S: If we think we can go and do something, > > there is no understanding now of what is appearing, whether it be > visible > > object, sound or any other dhamma. > > James: I don't know what you mean by "go and do something". You > seem to think that a doing something is separate from nominal > reality in time and space. Doing something is doing something right > now, right here. ... S: The emphasis is on the idea that is *we* who can go and do something. Of course there is 'doing' now as we understand the word conventionally, but as we know, in fact there are just cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away. No self involved. .... >>S: There are conditions now to listen and > > consider the teachings carefully, but none of these conditions is > a self > > doing or choosing to do anything. > > Sarah: Are you telling me that you have eliminated self? The > Buddha's teaching is a gradual method. ... S: Exactly, a gradual method which again as Ken O has been stressing in his posts means an inclining, a getting used to hearing, considering and speaking with right view about dhammas as anatta, not as atta as we are used to think. Otherwise, there is no chance of ever being released from the 'strangulations' and 'bonds' which he refers to. As he also wrote in another message (#79067): "Uncontrollable meant that self cannot control the conditions and causes.<...> As I said earlier, when one think, one ponders, one incline, then it becomes a habit. This is what would happen to kusala with panna and also with akusala. It works both ways. That is the reason I felt I keep suggesting about reading and inverstigation about the dhamma." If we wait until any idea of self has been completely eradicated to listen to, speak and consider dhammas as anatta at the present moment, we'll wait forever. Thanks for giving me an excuse to re-quote from Ken O's messages. Regardless of whether we go into the forest or not, sit in a secluded spot or not, there are dhammas arising and falling away, dhammas appearing which can be directly understood. If they're not understood, we'll always be lost in our world of illusion as I see it. Metta, Sarah ========= #79635 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 2:10 am Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et al philofillet Hi again Ken > if you reads the Samadhi section of Vism you'll find the most > explicit, detailed instructions, about how to make kasina, about how > to count the breath, about how to walk on alms in order to keep the > domain of the meditation. I forgot to add that the usual argument about "they were people of advanced understanding living in the Buddha's" day doesn't stand. The instructions (written, what, 8 or 9 centuries after the Buddha taught? More?) make reference to what "the beginner" should do, and there are also references to what should be done by someone for whom the object doesn't arise naturally, as opposed to the person for whom it does arise. So the "only for those of deep understanding" argument does not stand. Stick with those impediments! That's the way to go when going after the meditators! (I write this in a friendly way. A little giddy after a great day at work.) Metta, Phil #79636 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 2:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et philofillet Hi Sarah THis is something I've noticed and wanted to point out. > > Regardless of whether we go into the forest or not, sit in a secluded spot > or not, there are dhammas arising and falling away, dhammas appearing > which can be directly understood. If they're not understood, we'll always > be lost in our world of illusion as I see it. There are so many references in the suttas and Vism in which seclusion is praised, and defined in the terms it is conventionally understood. There is only one (I think you said it is your favourite) in which seclusion is defined in terms of satipatthana, or something like that. (Or is there more than one.) Hundreds vs one. Hundreds win, I think. (I also think you have a response to this one already on file! :) Metta, Phil #79637 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Hi Ken O & Larry, --- Ken O wrote: > >L: In the case of a person who has a leg amputated there can still > > arise > > pain in the missing leg. This clearly shows that pain is nama but > > it is interesting that the pain seems to arise in the missing leg > > KO: This is a behavioural conditoning of our mind. In short our > latency of attachment to our body is very strong, losing it cause > great pains and this memory of the pain comes again and again. Just > like at times when we imagine we eat someting sour, saliva automatic > comes to the mouth even though we are not eating. It is a > accumulating and latency effect. .... S: Very well explained. This is a similar explanation which A.Sujin gives: http://www.vipassana.info/Taking%20refuge3.htm "When we touch any part of the body, the characteristic of softness or hardness appears. Hardness and softness are ruupas which arise and then fall away immediately. Because of sa~n~naa we think of different parts of the body and I will give an example of this. Someone who had a leg being amputated still has a feeling that he has that leg. It is sa~n~naa, remembrance, which conditions him to think that he still has that leg, although it has been amputated. There is remembrance of all the ruupas of that leg. In reality the ruupa which appears now falls away immediately and, when there are the appropriate conditions, it is replaced by another ruupa which arises and falls away again. However, people think, because of sa~n~naa, of their whole body from head to toes, just as in the case of the person who had his leg amputated but still has a feeling that he has that leg. Only when the wrong remembrance of self, attaa sa~n~naa, because of which one is used to thinking that the whole body exists, has been eradicated, can one really understand that all dhammas are anattaa, non-self. Then there is nothing left of the body as a whole, there is only one characteristic of ruupa at a time which is appearing. This is the way to understand the meaning of anattaa." Metta, Sarah ====== #79638 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 2:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Quick Question on Conditionality sarahprocter... Hi Howard (Ken O & all), --- upasaka@... wrote: > Howard: > For many people, suffering, rather than a cause for faith can be > cause > for despair, hence my questioning. But I think I do now see how dukkha > can be > a supportive condition for confidence (in the Dhamma), and that is when > > suffering leads to questioning, searching, and hearing the Dhamma. > ---------------------------------------------------- S: I think you make a good point that for many (actually most) people, suffering is a cause for despair rather than faith. (Also, as faith has come up recently in many other threads, I'd like to suggest that for so-called Buddhists or non-Buddhists alike, without right understanding, the so-called faith is most likely to be attachment, rather than saddha.) I recall a discussion with K.Sujin in which there was discussion about this topic of old age, sickness and death as conditioning confidence and wisdom in the Dhamma. In brief, she was stressing that most people think that when they're sick or suffering that there can't be awareness or wisdom. The Buddha stressed that it's very, very ordinary and common to grow old, to be sick, to be parted from the beloved and so on. Dhammas such as seeing and visible object are just as real and common at such times, so there can be awareness right then and there rather than waiting for different times again. Usually we think a lot about ourselves, about our sickness and about our suffering. By understanding the ordinary dhammas at such times, it's a condition to think less of ourselves. So it's not a question of thinking more about sickness and suffering to prompt more confidence, but a need to understand more about seeing, visible object, hearing and sound and other dhammas appearing 'just like now'. Metta, Sarah ======== #79639 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 3:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > There are so many references in the suttas and Vism in which > seclusion is praised, and defined in the terms it is conventionally > understood. ... S: Are we in conventionally understood seclusion now? Are we alone now? Maybe yes, maybe no. Regardless, is there seeing now? Is there visible object appearing now? Is there any dhamma other than the present one that can be known? If we're thinking about having more seclusion or more seclusion being preferable, what is the reality now? Which is better now: understanding and detachment from whatever reality is already conditioned or dreaming about living alone in the forest like some bhikkhus in the Buddha's time? ... > Hundreds vs one. Hundreds win, I think. ... S: It's true that the texts refer to both a)bodily seclusion/detachment (kaaya-viveka), i.e living in seclusion, usually refers to jhana and b)mental seclusion/detachment (citta-viveka), usually refers to being free from akusala dhammas, living 'alone' without attachment and ignorance of what is conditioned now. Then there is c)detachment/freedom from becoming completely (upadhi-viveka), i.e the seclusion of the arahant. It is b) that leads to c). It all comes back to the understanding right now, Phil. ... >(I also think you have a > response to this one already on file! :) ... S: Oh, well, here's another one, it is a favourite topic:-) As for all the hundreds and hundreds of references to jhana in the texts, let's be clear that no one ever developed samatha by wishing to do so or by trying with attachment to do so. All the time we're living amongst people, thinking the practice would be better if we were living alone in the forest (or similar), we're just accumulation more attachment, grief and lost opportunities for developing understanding of common, ordinary dhammas. No need to respond to the questions above - I don't want to exhaust your patience or posting time:-). Metta, Sarah ========= #79640 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 3:11 am Subject: Infinite & Divine Classic! bhikkhu0 Friends: Development of Infinite All-Embracing Kindness! The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus and Friends: There are these four infinite mental states: The Bhikkhu pervades all beings with all-embracing friendliness... The Bhikkhu encompass all beings with universal & endless pity... The Bhikkhu permeates all beings with infinite & mutual joy... The Bhikkhu suffuses all beings with unlimited equanimity... First in one direction, then in the 2nd, then the 3rd, & finally the 4th , above, below, all around, in every location, unifying himself with all beings, he pervades this entire universe with a kind & all-embracing friendliness, with an all-encircling compassion & pity, with an all-enveloping mutual & altruistic joy, with an all-embracing imperturbable equanimity, using a refined mind which is great, vast, profound, infinite, immeasurable, released from all hate, anger, irritation, opposition & stubbornness... Source: DN 33 Because of hate, overwhelmed and obsessed by hate, one lives by doing evil deeds, speaking evil words, and thinking evil thoughts... Thus one neither really understands one's own welfare, nor the welfare of others, nor the welfare of both... If, however, this hate is overcome and subdued, then one lives while doing good deeds, speaking kind words, and thinking advantageous thoughts... Therefore one really knows, what is one's own welfare, for the welfare of others, and to the welfare of both self and others... Source: AN 3:55 <...> All-Embracing Infinite Friendliness! Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * ... #79641 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 3:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any Suttas describing Buddha eating Meat? nilovg Dear Christine, we have to look into the Vinaya, where the Buddha said that certain kinds of meat are not allowed, such as monkey, and also when you know that the animal (or fish) was especially killed for you. We were discussing this before. I am careful in a restaurant where I see fish swimming in an aquarium. Nina. Op 1-dec-2007, om 11:03 heeft Christine Forsyth het volgende geschreven: > While discussing the brief article below with friends a question was > raised as to whether the Buddha actually is recorded as eating meat > in the Nikayas. If so, can anyone give me exact references to this? #79642 From: Ken O Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 3:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. ashkenn2k Hi Robert > Robert A: > It is true that when one first reads something like the > Satipatthana > Sutta, it will not be obvious what is really meant by mindfulness > and > how one can be in touch with moment to moment experience in a way > that brings insight. However, I also believe that there are > limits to how > much reading commentary after commentary can help you in this > regard. The way one learns is by working with the sutta > instructions as > you find them and doing that over and over again for years and > years > and gradually you find your way. I do read books such as Soma > Thera's "The Way of Mindfulness" and have been reading that one > along with Nyanaponika Thera's wonderful book for thirty years and > am > still reading them now, and will be reading them on my deathbed, > most > likely, but in the end the light never goes on when you are reading > a > book, but when you are engaging with your life. If you look at the Satipatthana Sutta. I think a lot of times, I felt that the words <> is not properly explain. For eg he understands "I breath in long" He understands, in modern days we will equate being "ok i know this it is like that" breath in long. I not sure what is the word used the pali word used, maybe someone could help. I am explaining without looking at the commentary at all. By the way I am a lazy person who at times do not read the commentary, this job is left to Sarah and Nina :-)))). He understands, IMHO, in Buddha term, "understands" is the intricacy of the aggregate that is doing the breathing. There is no "I" involved. for eg the wind element, as explain in MN140, The exposition of the elements, is the up-going winds and down going winds. It is with the understanding of this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself as indicated in the sutta. The gist of the question is Who breathes? What conditions breathing, this he understands. Mindfulness without panna is not helping hence the word He understands is meaning panna and mindfullness. When panna arise, it see the characteristics of the elements. He knows clearly it is the elements that is working together in breathing, there is no I that is involved. Ken O #79643 From: "sarahprocterabbott" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 3:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: An Introduction to Buddhism- 1 sarahprocter... Hi Tep, Phil (& Scott), A late response to Tep's quote given in #77058 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > Another sutta that talks about the sequence of dhammas that supports > yathabhuta~nana-dassana is SN 55.40. I did not use it here before. > > "Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified > confidence in the Dhamma... verified confidence in the Sangha... > virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, > unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, > untarnished, leading to concentration. ... S: In other words, the description of the sotapanna. ... >Not content with those virtues > pleasing to the noble ones, he exerts himself further in solitude by > day or seclusion by night. ... S: I understand this to be referring to the viveka (solitude/detachment) of vipassana [vaayamati divaa pavivekaaya rattto.m pa.tisallaanaaya]. Until all defilements are eradicated, the task is not finished and satipatthana continues to be developed. .... >For him, living thus heedfully, joy > arises. In one who has joy, rapture arises. In one who has rapture, > the body becomes serene. When the body is serene, one feels pleasure. ... S: Calm with understanding and joy as satipatthana continues to develop. ... > Feeling pleasure, the mind becomes centered. When the mind is > centered, phenomena become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, he > is reckoned as one who dwells heedfully. ... S: The heedfulness of the ariyan disciples as dhammas are clearly understood by the vipassana nanas. Phil, I think this is an example of a sutta which you/others might be assume refers to physical seclusion or jhanas. I think this would be an error. Another I came across just now whilst looking for this one in B.Bodhi's SN translation was SN56:2 'Seclusion': "Bhikkhus, make an exertion in seclusion. A bhikkhu who is secluded understands things as they really are. "And what does he understand as it really is? .....This is suffering....origin of suffering....cessation of suffering....way leading to the cessation of suffering." S: Here, pa.tisallaana (seclusion) is used. Clearly the reference is to the seclusion/detachment with wisdom which understands the 4NT. Metta, Sarah ======== #79644 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 4:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, (Ken O & all), > > We're going to have to disagree on this thread, James:-) Yeah, I guess so- but I'm not an unreasonable person. If you could show me where the Buddha directly taught this then I would have to agree. However, you give me quotes by Ken O to support this idea. Nothing against Ken O, but he isn't the Buddha. Metta, James #79645 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 4:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Dear Elaine, I refer to the following in your e-m:" You asked whether the commentaries are really helpful. I think, maybe some are, but this particular commentary about how "dogs, jackals and the like" know "going" as going, is not very helpful, unless you understand how the animals knows it. I think, for Satipatthana Sutta, the explanation from the Sutta is good enough."............. DC: I want to just add a few words about the commentaries: The commentaries are not not just helpful. They are essential to understand the Suttas. Suttas are written in an ancient language, which is not in current use now. There is no consensus about its origin. The real issue is how do we give meanings to the 'words' in that language. It was not a language in the modern sense of the word. It didn't have even a set of letters-characters. It was most probably spoken by the Buddha (controversial). Commentaries are essential as it gives the meaning of the words, and therefore the sentences as understood by the people of Sri Lanka about 1000 years after the parinibbaana of the Buddha. But then that is all we have. The real problem with commentaries is the use of "Abhidhamma" in its interpretations and the exaggerations, which were due to the Hindu influence (may be Jaina as well) and the deification of the Buddha (mahaayaana influence). If you keep these things in mind, you can correctly use the commentaries. Going direct to the suttas and understanding the Dhamma appears to be not possible. Good example is the Western interpretations of dhamma. with lots of mettaa, DC #79646 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 5:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna "Hi DC This is impressive. In a matter of 3 sentences, you have effectively obliterated the basic premise of the science of ethology and a whole body of some 80 years' scientific work! If you don't have the ability to know the mind of a jackal, do you have the ability to know the mind of a commentary writer? Or your mother? ;~)) Andrew" Thanks, Andrew for the above. With reference to the first question the answer is no. With reference to second question no. This is a fundamental teaching of the Buddha. You get that ability only when you get what is called "paracittavijaanana"naa.na" --ability to encompass the mind of another with one's own mind and be able to read it. Don't ask me too much about it. I don't know have it since I can't read other peoples' minds. But it says so in almost every sutta in DNI, where the six Abhi~n~naas are described. [What has it got to do with ethology? That I am not clear. Any way, behavioural sciences have nothing to do with the mind. Then it would become a psychology--mere speculation and theories. By the way, Bertrand Russel once said something like: It is a good thing that the god didn't give me the power to read other peoples' minds. I would have been left without friends.] Regards, DC #79647 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 5:31 am Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et philofillet H Sarah > Which is better now: understanding and detachment from whatever reality is > already conditioned or dreaming about living alone in the forest like some > bhikkhus in the Buddha's time? The answer is "understanding and detachment from whatever reality is already conditioned." I personally don't have any aspirations to live alone in the forest. But early in the morning, before anyone gets up, and the house and all around is quiet, for example, and I can sit and watch where my mind is going - that' a kind of seclusion, and I can learn a lot about my hindrances. For example, I would not have come to understand the characteristics of the hindrance that rules me so strongly at such times, sloth and torpor, without that kind of seclusion. Wouldn't have come to understand it as well if I were just carrrying on in busy daily life, without that seclusion. That sort of thing is what I mean by seclusion. It would be good to be a bhikkhu too, I suppose, but my role is in public life. Bah, never mind. Just babbling. I see your point. > As for all the hundreds and hundreds of references to jhana in the texts, > let's be clear that no one ever developed samatha by wishing to do so or > by trying with attachment to do so. All the time we're living amongst > people, thinking the practice would be better if we were living alone in > the forest (or similar), we're just accumulation more attachment, grief > and lost opportunities for developing understanding of common, ordinary > dhammas. PH: Yes, I agree. As long as we agree that the texts point at the conventional kind of seclusion, that' fine. Whether it suits us or we it, that's another manner. > No need to respond to the questions above - I don't want to exhaust your > patience or posting time:-). Ph: No problem. Ken, as I said in the other post, I've said my last word for awhile on the topic you prompted me to post on. I was just doing the duty demanded of me. :) Metta, Phil #79648 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 6:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hi Andrew, I have already sent you rather a terse reply. But I will now explain myself. One fundamental principle of Dhamma [the teaching of the Buddha as embodied in the Four Noble Truths] is that human being is the five-aggregates of grasping--"pancupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkha". It is not possible to separate the these five. Similaraly naamaruup is another definition for the same "entity" (dukkhakkhanda or dukkhaa for short.). In the Dhatu-aayatana analysis, it is divided into six. These are different descriptions of one single entity. Now science separates the human being into mind and body. And science leaves the mind severely alone. The simple reason is it is not observable and measurable or quantifiable. Now I don't know about ethology. I'll take an example I am acquainted with: Religion. In academic studies of religion we study religious behaviour. Never the belief systems. That is matter for theologians. For example we study rites and ritual pilgrimages and so on. The simple reason is we can't observe god. Just imagine what will happen if we start arguing about God is the truth, Brahman is not the truth. and so on. Animal behaviour can be studied. It is observable. And some results can certainly be valid for humans: the impulse to satisfy hunger, or sex or something. But on the other hand, we may not want to come to the conclusion that because whales like the deep see (may be) human would like the deep see. Please correct me if I am wrong. But as far as the teaching of the Buddha is concerned. This is the case. Any animal that is endowed with the five aggregates would behave in the same manner. That why according to Dhamma, that gods animals, human beings etc. are equal. As far as this list is concerned, yes all this talk about atta/anatta/bhikkhus thanissaro/ abhidhamma etc. is a waste of time. All those are not based on knowledge. They are based on mere thoughts; beliefs. But they are good subjects for discussion. Since neither party can verify his/her case, they can argue and have fun until the proverbial cows come home. Well, please feel free to come back. I like a serious discussion. Thanks for that. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79649 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 6:15 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, Some people believe that they should just practise, that study is not necessary, but it is necessary to know what sati and paññå are, what the object of satipatthåna is, and what the conditions are for their arising. As we have seen, the object of satipatthåna is a paramattha dhamma, an ultimate reality, that appears, not a concept. We should not forget that sati of satipatthåna is a cetasika that arises when there are the appropriate conditions, that it is not self. It is non- forgetful, mindful of the reality that appears, so that right understanding of that reality can be developed at that moment. Sati can be of different levels of kusala, it accompanies each kusala citta, it is non-forgetful of kusala: it arises with dåna, generosity, with síla, morality, with samatha and with the development of satipatthåna. Only through satipatthåna the wrong view of self can be eradicated. When we perform dåna, sati accompanies the kusala citta that is non-forgetful of kusala, but when sati is not of the level of satipaììhåna, we are bound to take dåna for ìour dånaî, for self. It is the same in the case of síla and samatha, if satipatthåna is not developed, one is bound to take these ways of kusala for self. Paññå is a cetasika that arises when there are the appropriate conditions, it is non-self. It may arise with dåna and síla, but it does not always accompany these ways of kusala. Paññå always accompanies mental development, including samatha and vipassanå. When we study the teachings and we acquire intellectual understanding of nåma and rúpa, sati and paññå accompany the kusala citta. However, thinking of paramattha dhammas is not the same as direct awareness and understanding of the reality appearing at this moment, and this is satipatthåna. The development of satipatthåna is a gradual process, because there have to be the right conditions for the arising of sati and paññå of satipatthåna. The right condition is the firm foundation knowledge of the teachings. Thus, study of realities of our life and considering them as they appear in our life. It depends on the individualís inclinations to what extent he will study the details about citta, cetasika and rúpa and the different processes of cittas, but a basic knowledge of realities is necessary. Each person is unique, there are no rules with regard to the development of understanding. But at the present time it has to be a development that takes a long time (cira kala bhavana). Acharn Supee Thumthong who teaches Påli in Bangkok remarked that when he studies realities he keeps firmly in mind that the results become apparent only when the conditions are fulfilled. If paññå does not arise to realize the dhammas that appear, it means that one's understanding about the dhammas at the paññatti level is not firm enough. He said that if one truly understands this, one will not struggle and strive for results. In other words, one will develop understanding naturally and not force oneself, trying to reach a level one is not yet ready for. ******* Nina. #79650 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 6:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. avalo1968 Hello Ken, Thank you for your comments. Robert A. #79651 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 6:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et nilovg Dear Phil, Op 1-dec-2007, om 14:31 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I personally don't have any aspirations to > live alone in the forest. But early in the morning, before anyone > gets up, and the house and all around is quiet, for example, and I > can sit and watch where my mind is going - that' a kind of > seclusion, and I can learn a lot about my hindrances. -------- N: that is just your quiet time. I also get up very early (usually before 5.30), and then I listen to tapes, or I read a sutta. Not because I set myself rules, but it has grown like that. I know that I will get too busy later on to listen or read. Nothing wrong with seclusion. It can be bhaavanaa, mental development. Those who feel that they want to be mindful of breathing could interchange it with sutta reading, if they like this. The suttas are direct exhortations from the Buddha, go straight to the heart, can echo long after during the day. That is why I appreciate sutta postings from Howard, Tep and others. Nina. #79652 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any Suttas describing Buddha eating Meat? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Chris) - In a message dated 12/1/2007 6:22:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Christine, we have to look into the Vinaya, where the Buddha said that certain kinds of meat are not allowed, such as monkey, and also when you know that the animal (or fish) was especially killed for you. We were discussing this before. I am careful in a restaurant where I see fish swimming in an aquarium. Nina. ============================== At home I'm entirely (lacto-ovo-)vegetarian, but when eating at a restaurant I will often eat seafood. Like you, though, Nina, I would not have lobster if there is a lobster tank in evidence. I also would not go fishing (or hunting, of course). I always find these abstentions of mine from eating lobster and from fishing, though, slightly hypocritical, because in a modern market society, rarely is an animal especially killed for one, but it is a fact that my eating of fish and shellfish is a clear condition for them being killed. I do allow myself seafood, assuming that fish, and especially shellfish, are "lower" on the awareness scale than "higher animals", but it is still, IMO, an act of violence against sentient beings. With metta, Howard #79653 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 7:17 am Subject: Perfections Corner (42) nichiconn Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 7: The Perfection of Truthfulness, taken from the book "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ We read: "When the Buddha had told the Haarita Jaataka, he explained the Truths and after he had finished, that monk attained the fruition of arahatship." Truthfulness is sincerity in the development of kusala to the degree of a perfection. If there is no truthfulness, no sincerity in one's actions, they cannot reach accomplishment. Sacca, truthfulness, is necessary for all kinds of kusala, be it daana, siila or mental development. One should not neglect the development of even the slightest degree of kusala. If one develops the perfections in order to abandon defilements, one should notice also subtle defilements such as deceptive speech even with regard to small matters. If deceptive speech becomes someone's habit, it will be easy to speak a lie and he will believe that it is not wrong to do so. If someone abstains from deceptive speech, if he is truthful, and acts in accordance with his promise, truthfulness will become natural to him. Then he is able to see the danger of akusala at the moment he tells a lie. Even deceptive speech concerning unimportant matters is akusala, but if someone accumulates deceptive speech all the time, he does not see its danger. Thus, we see that it is not easy to discern the characteristic of akusala. We can have understanding of realities stemming from listening to the Dhamma but this does not mean that we know their characteristics when they are appearing. We should further develop understanding in conformity with what we learnt by listening and we should be aware of realities. We may be deceptive in speech, be it even a little, or we may not act in accordance with our promise, but when sati-sampaja~n~na arises it can realize that this is akusala. Many akusala cittas arise in a day, but we do not know this because of our forgetfulness; there is no awareness of the characteristics of realities, no understanding of them as they are. Understanding has to be very detailed and refined so that the characteristics of realities can be known as they are. The development of satipa.t.thaana will lead to a more precise discrimination between different realities and thus, pa~n~naa is able to know the characteristic of akusala. When akusala arises pa~n~naa can know what type of akusala arises, and it can know its characteristic as different from kusala. In this way kusala dhamma can gradually be further developed. === to be continued, connie #79654 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 7:15 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (71) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 9 14. Ti.msanipaato 1. Subhaajiivakambavanikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 371. "Aavilacitto anaavila.m, sarajo viitaraja.m ana"nga.na.m; sabbattha vimuttamaanasa.m, ki.m ma.m ovariyaana ti.t.thasi. 369. [Your] mind is disturbed, [mine] is undisturbed. [You] are impure, [I] am completely free from impurity, without blemish, with my mind completely released. Why do you stand obstructing me? txt: Aavilacittoti cittassa aavilabhaavakaraana.m kaamavitakkaadiina.m vasena aavilacitto, tva.m tadabhaavato anaavila.m, raagarajaadiina.m vasena sarajo, saa"nga.no tadabhaavato viitaraja.m ana"nga.na.m sabbattha khandhapa~ncake samucchedavimuttiyaa vimuttamaanasa.m, ma.m kasmaa ovaritvaa ti.t.thasiiti? Eva.m theriyaa vutte dhuttako attano adhippaaya.m vibhaavento "daharaa caa"ti-aadinaa dasa gaathaa abhaasi. 369. [Your] mind is disturbed means: you mind is disturbed because of thoughts of sensual pleasures, etc, that produce a disturbed mind (cittassa aavila-bhaava-karaana.m). Through the absence of these, I am undisturbed. [You] are impure (sarajo), full of depravity (saa"nga.no), through the impurities of passion, etc. (raaga-rajaadiina.m). Through the absence of these, I am completely free from impurity, without belmeish [and] through the freedom that is the cutting off of the group of five aggregates, with my mind released. Why do you stand obstructing me? After the therii had said this, the rogue, making his intention clear, spoke the ten verses beginning, "You are young." verse: 372. "Daharaa ca apaapikaa casi, ki.m te pabbajjaa karissati; nikkhipa kaasaayaciivara.m, ehi ramaama supupphite vane. 370. You are young and not ugly. What will going forth do for you? Throw away your yellow robe. Come, let us delight in the wood that is in full flower. txt: Tattha daharaati taru.nii pa.thame yobbane .thitaa. Apaapikaa casiiti ruupena alaamikaa ca asi uttamaruupadharaa caahosiiti adhippaayo. Ki.m te pabbajjaa karissatiiti tuyha.m eva.m pa.thamavaye .thitaaya ruupasampannaaya pabbajjaa ki.m karissati, vu.d.dhaaya biibhaccharuupaaya vaa pabbajitabbanti adhippaayena vadati. Nikkhipaati cha.d.dehi. "Ukkhipaa"ti vaa paa.tho, apanehiiti attho. 370. There, [you are] young means: young (taru.nii), established in the flower of your youth. And you are not ugly means: and you are not bad in appearance. And you are one who possesses the highest beauty. That is the implication. What will going forth do for you (te)? means: since you are established in the flower of your youth, endowed with beauty, what will going forth do for you (tuyha.m)? He says this, meaning, "Only old women or those of loathesome appearance should go forth." Throw away means: abandon. Or there is the reading ukkhipa ("throw away"). The meaning is: strip off. verse: 373. "Madhura~nca pavanti sabbaso, kusumarajena samu.t.thitaa dumaa; pa.thamavasanto sukho utu, ehi ramaama supupphite vane. 371. The trees send forth a sweet smell in all directions with the pollen of flowers rising up. The beginning of spring is a happy season. Come, let us delight in the wood that is in full flower. txt: Madhuranti subha.m, sugandhanti attho. Pavantiiti vaayanti. Sabbasoti samantato. Kusumarajena samu.t.thitaa dumaati ime rukkhaa mandavaatena samu.t.thahamaanakusumare.nujaatena attano kusumarajena saya.m samu.t.thitaa viya hutvaa samantato surabhii vaayanti. Pa.thamavasanto sukho utuuti aya.m pa.thamo vasantamaaso sukhasamphasso ca utu vattatiiti attho. 371. Sweet means: pleasant. The meaning is: fragrant. Send forth a smell means: emit an odour. In all directions means: everywhere. These trees, by means of the soft wind that is full of the pollen of flowers rising up, are, as it were, rising up themselves with their own pollen of flowers, and they emit a fragrant odour on all sides. The beginning of spring (pa.thama-vasanto) is a happy (sukho) season means: this is the first month of spring (pa.thamo vasanta-maaso), and the season pleasant to touch (sukha-samphasso) is beginning. That is the meaning. == to be contintued, connie #79655 From: "Raymond Hendrickson" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 8:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self View & Verbal misunderstandings bitakarma Hi Sara, I always enjoy reading the messages here on DSG and refer folks here all the time. I still mostly read the Suttas, except for Nina's great books on the Abdhidhamma. It is truly an amazing gift that these wonderful books can be read online! But in this thread I was as suprised as Howard when reading the initial quote. It just did not jib with what I have read within the Suttas so thought it worthwhile to explore a bit :) As for the Ra, I don't know what that is, for some reason my email client is cutting off the y.....maybe the way I am truncating the messages..... then again maybe it is a Frudian slip of the underlying tendency of the desire for a long life :) Ray....... #79656 From: Ken O Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 8:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et ashkenn2k Hi Phil > The answer is "understanding and detachment from whatever reality > is already conditioned." I personally don't have any aspirations to > live alone in the forest. But early in the morning, before anyone > gets up, and the house and all around is quiet, for example, and I > can sit and watch where my mind is going - that' a kind of > seclusion, and I can learn a lot about my hindrances. For example, > I would not have come to understand the characteristics of the > hindrance that rules me so strongly at such times, sloth and > torpor, without that kind of seclusion. Wouldn't have come to understand it as well if I were just carrrying on in busy daily life, without that seclusion. That sort of thing is what I mean by seclusion. It would be good to be a bhikkhu too, I suppose, but my role is in public life. KO: I would like to give you suggestions. Rather than watching where the mind go, how about understanding the mind. For eg, when you are sitting down, when a sound arise from a passing vehicle or birds singing etc. How does sound arise, it is the meeting of sound base, sound object and sound citta. Understand the reality of the senses rather than waiting for it to arise, thats to me, makes more sense. This is my view but I am not a meditator so maybe I am wrong. You could also catch these small meditation seculsion like when doing your "business" in the office toilet, or if you take public transport, understand your the objects that comes into the senses. Even walking could be also helping but do becareful of traffic :-). These are fun things to do :-). Cheers Ken O #79657 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 4:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Phil) - In a message dated 12/1/2007 11:38:21 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@... writes: Hi Phil > The answer is "understanding and detachment from whatever reality > is already conditioned." I personally don't have any aspirations to > live alone in the forest. But early in the morning, before anyone > gets up, and the house and all around is quiet, for example, and I > can sit and watch where my mind is going - that' a kind of > seclusion, and I can learn a lot about my hindrances. For example, > I would not have come to understand the characteristics of the > hindrance that rules me so strongly at such times, sloth and > torpor, without that kind of seclusion. Wouldn't have come to understand it as well if I were just carrrying on in busy daily life, without that seclusion. That sort of thing is what I mean by seclusion. It would be good to be a bhikkhu too, I suppose, but my role is in public life. KO: I would like to give you suggestions. Rather than watching where the mind go, how about understanding the mind. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's not understanding the mind. It is understanding statements about the mind. Khun Sujin and Nina don't urge not watching the mind so far as I know. ----------------------------------------------------------- For eg, when you are sitting down, when a sound arise from a passing vehicle or birds singing etc. How does sound arise, it is the meeting of sound base, sound object and sound citta. Understand the reality of the senses rather than waiting for it to arise, thats to me, makes more sense. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That is not understanding the reality of the senses. That is just thinking about claims. When there is actual awareness of "the coming together of the three," that is understanding the reality. The teachings are pointings. If we get directions from mapquest but merely read them again and again but not take the trip, well ... . Ehipassiko, Ken. --------------------------------------------------------------- This is my view but I am not a meditator so maybe I am wrong. --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I understand your perspective, but I think it is mistaken. I don't dismiss the possibility, though, that it is I who am mistaken. --------------------------------------------------------------- You could also catch these small meditation seculsion like when doing your "business" in the office toilet, or if you take public transport, understand your the objects that comes into the senses. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, very important. And especially fruitful to do so with a mind calmed by meditation. ------------------------------------------------------------ Even walking could be also helping but do becareful of traffic :-). These are fun things to do :-). ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly, and very worthwhile. --------------------------------------------------------- Cheers Ken O =========================== With metta, Howard #79658 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina... moellerdieter Hi Howard, you wrote: (D: you mentioned before that A.S.'s interpretation is downplaying volition.. I would add because its crucial importance is not seen. ) ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I see it to be less a matter of not seeing the importance of volition [Since volition is kamma, how could it not be seen as crucially important?] than a matter of understanding volition differently from most other people and also of being influenced by the fact that volition in worldlings and even lesser ariyans is contaminated by sense of self. (Of course, all the factors of the 12-linked D. O. are contaminated by ignorance. That is how we all begin, immersed in ignorance D: I am bit lost .. you mean A.S. is downplaing volition because of her understanding 'volition ' is different from most other people and also of being influenced by the fact that volition in worldlings and even lesser ariyans is contaminated by sense of self? ' The fact that volition in worldlings and even lesser ariyans is contaminated by sense of self' IS the problem and D.O. tells us the details . It is ignorance which conditions the will /volition leading to khanda attachment (this I am, this is mine..) That is how we begin and stand ...I think we agree .. (?) Howard: . If only ignorance-free actions could lead to freedom, then the goal could never be attained D: The goal is cessation of suffering. By application of the Noble Path , the full penetration into the 4 Noble Truth, ignorance is abolished , the condition for the mass of suffering. So attention to our action is highly important but prority is the replacement of ignorance by wisdom ... is that what you mean ? H: (D: When all attention is given to the present moment, this 6 senses contact, the path development , especially the medition part of the training is neglected. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That doesn't follow, as I see it. Meditation as taught by the Buddha pertains exactly to what is occurring "right now". More likely, meditation training is neglected, because it is an intentional activity. D:you are right , meditation is exactly about 'right now' .. what I meant is , that A.S. ' aim is developing of precise understanding of dhammas (the realities of the present moment), but due to a lack of medition it is attention to the day-by-day nama rupa consciousness, not looking behind as in the 8.th step, the Jhanas, thus missing insights when there is an emptying of sense impression.... The argument about intentional activity is the most controversial one . Even in the Jhanas intention is necessary to follow the direction of the guidelines. It is only valid at the temporary moment of bliss/grace ( see quotation) .. I suppose we agree .. ? I H: Volition, kamma forces , cetana , sankhara all seen as synonym to will, makes above very 'theravadish' , does it not? Ignorance (avijja) arises/conditions again and again , bcause insight in what is behind is missing ..i.e. the 8th step , the Jhanas . ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, mindfulness does lead to jhanas. The following material in MN 118 suggests the 1st four jhanas: - - - - - - - - - - D: thanks for quoting.. hopefully not only read by us .. ;-) with Metta Dieter #79659 From: "Christine Forsyth" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 10:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any Suttas describing Buddha eating Meat? christine_fo... Hello Nina and Howard, All, Thank you for your responses - But does anyone had any Sutta references in which the Buddha was actually eating meat. I am aware of the Devadatta attempt at schism and the Buddha not making vegetarianism compulsory for monks, but rather, providing the Threefold rule. However this is an instance 'talking about' what monks ought to do - not showing an instance of the Buddha actually eating meat. The husbandry of animals during the Buddha's time could not compare with the appalling cruelty of modern Factory Farming methods - the latest being that it is more cost-effective to actually tear the large animal apart while alive rather than render it unconscious or kill it first. Never having been a vegan or vegetarian in the past, I am presently rethinking the whole scenario, and finding it harder and harder to talk about animals and their sufferings as Conceptual Stories. metta Chris ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- #79660 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 6:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina... upasaka_howard Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 12/1/2007 12:55:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@... writes: Hi Howard, you wrote: (D: you mentioned before that A.S.'s interpretation is downplaying volition.. I would add because its crucial importance is not seen. ) ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I see it to be less a matter of not seeing the importance of volition [Since volition is kamma, how could it not be seen as crucially important?] than a matter of understanding volition differently from most other people and also of being influenced by the fact that volition in worldlings and even lesser ariyans is contaminated by sense of self. (Of course, all the factors of the 12-linked D. O. are contaminated by ignorance. That is how we all begin, immersed in ignorance D: I am bit lost .. you mean A.S. is downplaing volition because of her understanding 'volition ' is different from most other people and also of being influenced by the fact that volition in worldlings and even lesser ariyans is contaminated by sense of self? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, that's what I think (and what I said ;-) ------------------------------------------------ ' The fact that volition in worldlings and even lesser ariyans is contaminated by sense of self' IS the problem and D.O. tells us the details . It is ignorance which conditions the will /volition leading to khanda attachment (this I am, this is mine..) That is how we begin and stand ...I think we agree .. (?) ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Certainly. all the factors of D. O. are so contaminated - as I indicated. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: . If only ignorance-free actions could lead to freedom, then the goal could never be attained D: The goal is cessation of suffering. By application of the Noble Path , the full penetration into the 4 Noble Truth, ignorance is abolished , the condition for the mass of suffering. So attention to our action is highly important but prority is the replacement of ignorance by wisdom ... is that what you mean ? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think everyone here accepts that. There is differing on the role that intention plays in that. In any case, what I meant by "If only ignorance-free actions could lead to freedom, then the goal could never be attained" is that because we begin mired in ignorance, a requirement of volition that it be free of sense of self in order for it to bear anything but bitter fruit would make awakening an impossibility. As I've said ad nauseum, though not ad nauseum to Phil: We begin where we are, not where we wish to be. ------------------------------------------------- H: (D: When all attention is given to the present moment, this 6 senses contact, the path development , especially the medition part of the training is neglected. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That doesn't follow, as I see it. Meditation as taught by the Buddha pertains exactly to what is occurring "right now". More likely, meditation training is neglected, because it is an intentional activity. D:you are right , meditation is exactly about 'right now' .. what I meant is , that A.S. ' aim is developing of precise understanding of dhammas (the realities of the present moment), but due to a lack of medition it is attention to the day-by-day nama rupa consciousness, not looking behind as in the 8.th step, the Jhanas, thus missing insights when there is an emptying of sense impression.... --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, my impression is not that the ajahn rejects jhanas but intentional attempts to attain & master them, and she believes that they will arise when and if "conditions allow", and that the main condition is hearing and contemplating the Dhamma. -------------------------------------------------- The argument about intentional activity is the most controversial one . Even in the Jhanas intention is necessary to follow the direction of the guidelines. It is only valid at the temporary moment of bliss/grace ( see quotation) .. I suppose we agree .. ? -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. :-) --------------------------------------------------- I H: Volition, kamma forces , cetana , sankhara all seen as synonym to will, makes above very 'theravadish' , does it not? Ignorance (avijja) arises/conditions again and again , bcause insight in what is behind is missing ..i.e. the 8th step , the Jhanas . ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, mindfulness does lead to jhanas. The following material in MN 118 suggests the 1st four jhanas: - - - - - - - - - - D: thanks for quoting.. hopefully not only read by us .. ;-) -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) ------------------------------------------------------- with Metta Dieter =========================== With metta, Howard #79661 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 6:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any Suttas describing Buddha eating Meat? upasaka_howard Hi, Cris - In a message dated 12/1/2007 1:33:45 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@... writes: Never having been a vegan or vegetarian in the past, I am presently rethinking the whole scenario, and finding it harder and harder to talk about animals and their sufferings as Conceptual Stories. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Conceptual Stories, huh? (A little dig with regard to conventional/paramattha disputes, hmm, Chris ;-)) Nothing merely conceptual, of course, in the victims' pain and suffering involved in their being murdered. With metta, Howard #79662 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 12:18 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Any Suttas describing Buddha eating Meat? nilovg Dear Christine, The Buddha's meal, offered by the smith Cunda: suukaramaddava: tender meat from a young pork. There was a discussion here, some think it was truffle. Suan wrote a very thorough post explaining that it was pork. Moreover, it kept him going, it did not cause his death. --------- "Despite having lunch with tender pork cuisine, Severe disorder occurred to the Teacher of the Universe." This alternative translation is exactly and literally in line with the Pali grammar rule. In my opinion, the commentator commented on that phrase in light of the Pali grammar rule. In short, the tender pork cuisine was the food that kept the Buddha going, rather than something that ruined him. When we reconstruct the expression "Buddhassa bhuttassa" as the expression "Buddhe bhutte" using the seventh case, we get a neutral general while/when syntax under the rule 644: Kaalebhaavesu ca. We can use the same translations as above for examples. When we know how the writer of the verse had carefully chosen the right syntax to convey the correct sense of the event, we do not find the lines of the verse to be ambiguous. We get the lines of the verse right.> (end quote) Many messages under the Buddha's last meal, to be found with search. Also suttas we discussed before! Fascinating! Nina. Op 1-dec-2007, om 19:33 heeft Christine Forsyth het volgende geschreven: > But does anyone had any Sutta references in which the Buddha was > actually eating meat. I am aware of the Devadatta attempt at > schism and the Buddha not making vegetarianism compulsory for monks, > but rather, providing the Threefold rule. However this is an > instance 'talking about' what monks ought to do - not showing an > instance of the Buddha actually eating meat. #79663 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 12:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... nilovg Hi Howard, I still did not go over your last good post, I agree with; we are coming closer, was my feeling. as to volition, this should not be a troublesome point. Volition arises with each citta: kusala, akusala vipaaka, kiriya. As to mental development pa~n~naa knows whether volition is kusala or akusala. This is important. Nobody downplays volition, but understanding has to understand what kind of volition. Op 1-dec-2007, om 18:23 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > You could also catch these small meditation seculsion like when doing > your "business" in the office toilet, or if you take public > transport, understand your the objects that comes into the senses. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, very important. And especially fruitful to do so with a mind > calmed > by meditation. ------ N: But when there are conditions for mindfulness and understanding, citta is calm already. No need to make it calm before so that afterwards there could be mindfulness. When you read a sutta with careful attention, is there no calm? You do not feel disturbed. Why do people worry so much about calm? I do not understand this, perhaps I should understand. I feel puzzled about this. Nina. #79664 From: "anna bu" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 11:34 am Subject: 3rd noble truth annabu12@... Send Email Hi All, I gravitated towards Buddhism because of direct experience of suffering in my life. However, I am struggling to understand what exactly is meant by the noble truth of cessation of suffering. Can desires such as access to healthy food, good relationships, financial stability, social harmony be really annihilated. I am not able to take the idea of rebirth on faith, perhaps one day i may develop supernormal powers and then this issue of repeated births will be clear to me. I am more interested in training my mind so that negative emotions do not take hold. My guess is that the third noble truth means that all unskillful desires [those motivated by anger, greed...] are completely eradicated when one becomes a 'brahman'. The path is the cultivation of love without any discrimination. Please guide me if I am wrong. Thanks in advance, anna. #79665 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 1:28 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" dacostacharles Dear Ken O I have to give you some credit, or maybe I just was not harsh enough, anyway good (I thought to provoke you:-)). Now for the rest: U said the Buddha used "I" quite often in the Sutras. I know you are right. The Buddha talked about himself a lot. I guess this is only partially why "I" say the "I" exists - well if you think the Buddha is a liar sometimes then, OK, we do have a problem. Now for the sutra you quoted. The Buddha never said that the working together of the 5 aggregates is not a being, in fact I can recall that a sutra presented the 5 as the aggregates of a being! I don't remember which . The sutra U brought up below is talking about the ESSENCE of a being, that non of the components are that essence. This is not the Self I am talking about. Charles DaCosta _____ #79666 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 1:32 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" dacostacharles Hi Ken 0 I have to quote you: “…Volition is action (karma), thus I say, o monks; for as soon as volition arises, one (i.e., a being, i.e., a self) does the action, be it by body, speech or mind.” Charles DaCosta _____ #79667 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 1:47 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The not-self strategy dacostacharles Dear Ken O You are clear, I just know, from EXPERIENCE, that you are wrong. You exist, and by English definition, a self! Charles DaCosta _____ #79668 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 2:38 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et kenhowardau Hi Phil, -------------- > Ken, as I said in the other post, I've said my last word for awhile on the topic you prompted me to post on. I was just doing the duty demanded of me. :) -------------- There has been a major breakdown in communication. As it turns out, you haven't even begun to do the duty I demanded of you. Instead, you have perpetuated the debate over formal-meditation. And you know how I hate that! (joke) I originally asked if you would express, in your own words, the no- control/no-formal-practice perspective on the Dhamma. I knew you didn't agree with that perspective, but I wanted to see if you at least knew what you were disagreeing with. I wasn't sure if my request was too general - in a "where do I start" sort of way. Therefore I suggested you might start with the Vism.'s samatha instructions that you had been talking about. They do seem (on the surface) to belong to a conventional teaching in which control is not an issue. Therefore, I wondered if you could describe how a staunch 'no-controller' would understand those instructions. After that, everything went horribly wrong. :-) Ken H #79669 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 10:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/1/2007 3:30:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I still did not go over your last good post, I agree with; we are coming closer, was my feeling. as to volition, this should not be a troublesome point. Volition arises with each citta: kusala, akusala vipaaka, kiriya. As to mental development pa~n~naa knows whether volition is kusala or akusala. This is important. Nobody downplays volition, but understanding has to understand what kind of volition. Op 1-dec-2007, om 18:23 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > You could also catch these small meditation seculsion like when doing > your "business" in the office toilet, or if you take public > transport, understand your the objects that comes into the senses. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, very important. And especially fruitful to do so with a mind > calmed > by meditation. ------ N: But when there are conditions for mindfulness and understanding, citta is calm already. No need to make it calm before so that afterwards there could be mindfulness. When you read a sutta with careful attention, is there no calm? You do not feel disturbed. Why do people worry so much about calm? I do not understand this, perhaps I should understand. I feel puzzled about this. Nina. =============================== Nina, meditation heightens calm and clarity at that very time. But more importantly, regular, proper meditation conditions the more frequent occasions for these at other times. Meditation conditions the mind to make it a more fit tool, not only in the midst of jhanas (especially the 4th), but in general. A roiling pond is a turbid one, not easily penetrated by sight. With metta, Howard #79670 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 6:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... avalo1968 Hello Nina and Howard, May I make a comment here? N: But when there are conditions for mindfulness and understanding, citta is calm already. No need to make it calm before so that afterwards there could be mindfulness. When you read a sutta with careful attention, is there no calm? You do not feel disturbed. Why do people worry so much about calm? I do not understand this, perhaps I should understand. I feel puzzled about this. Robert A: When you become calm as you read a sutta with careful attention, it is a calm that arises from concentration that takes you away from what is going on in your mind and body. When you meditate you are seeing what is arising in your mind and body moment to moment and becoming calm through that seeing, which I would contend is a very different thing. With metta, Robert A. #79671 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 7:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 3rd noble truth: To Anna dcwijeratna From: D. G. D. C. Wijeratna. "I gravitated towards Buddhism because of direct experience of suffering in my life. However, I am struggling to understand what exactly is meant by the noble truth of cessation of suffering. Can desires such as access to healthy food, good relationships, financial stability, social harmony be really annihilated. I am not able to take the idea of rebirth on faith, perhaps one day i may develop supernormal powers and then this issue of repeated births will be clear to me. I am more interested in training my mind so that negative emotions do not take hold. My guess is that the third noble truth means that all unskillful desires [those motivated by anger, greed...] are completely eradicated when one becomes a 'brahman'. The path is the cultivation of love without any discrimination. Please guide me if I am wrong." DC: There is no need to guide you, you are on the right path, according to my understanding of the teaching of the Buddha. Given below are the reasons for my saying so: (1) It is through not understanding dukkha (you have translated this as suffering), the First Noble Truth that you travel through Sa"nsaara (repeated births). (2) In Dhamma (I shall use this word for the Teaching of the Buddha--The four Noble Truths, the p.ticchasamuppaada (Dependent arising or dependent-coarising or dependent origination, DO for short) and the three characteristics of existence--anicca, dukkha, anatta (impermanence, dissatisfaction or unsatisfactoriness, not-self respectively), the word dukkha has many meanings. One of them is suffering; that is the physical and mental pain that you experience. But the most general definition of dukkha is: "sa"nkhittena pancuupaadanakkhandha dukkhaa"--Collectively, the five-aggregates of grasping, a technical name for 'being' and in particular for a human being is suffering. That is in Dhamma, dukkha, or really dukkhakkhandha, is the human being. (3) Following from (1) you cannot understand the other three Noble truths as well completely. But you can understand dukkha as suffering by your experience of the world. (3) Now what is the solution to this problem? To follow the middle path (Majjhimaa pa.tipadaa). (4) The majjhimaa pa.tipadaa is called the Noble Eighfold Path for those who have left home for homelessness (pabbajita-in normal English a monk). That is the path to understand the Four Noble Truths. (5) Then what is the path for householders (gihii kaamabhogii)? The Buddha explains this in the Anguttara Nikaaya-Four Cardinal wishes. We human beings, want wealth, health, good friendship and a good after life. The first one wealth is very general and includes all the things that satisfy our five senses: tasty food, sweet music and so on. The generality is true for the other three as well. Each word is pregnant with meaning. Health again means both physical and mental health--that is freedom from suffering. Friendship is all social relationships; afterlife, is really life yet to come--future from the present. Then the Buddha advises how a 'gihii kaamabhogii' should go about fulfilling the four Cardinal wishes. Basic criterion is "dhammikena dhammaladdhena" that is righteously and with righteously obtained, the first word refers to that fact you must go about getting your wishes fulfilled by righteously, and the second refers to how you should use the things (bhoga) when you acquire them. (1) if you adhere to the five precepts the first would be fulfilled (2) With regard to the second (dhammikena dhammaladdhena) you first make yourself contented and happy (sukheti pii.neti), then your family, friends, government, visitors, and animals, your religious teachers and so on. You do this by sharing the wealth you earned. The criterion for judging your actions--whether you confirm to this ideal is as follows: you do only things that is good for you and the other. If it is bad for you, you don't do it; if it is bad for the other, you don't do it. The Buddha advised that you should reflect, it before you act; while doing the act, and after doing the act. When you reflect before the act, you don't do it if it is bad, if you fail to do so, you think about it while doing it; if you fail to do it at this stage also, then you reflect at the third stage. And if you find that it was not 'good', then you make a determination not to repeat. This advise looks very simple and easy to understand. But try to do it then you will know. I give you a guarantee from my personal experience, it works. (If you don't practice, you don't understand and you can't even talk about it meaningfully). Now another little piece of the Buddha's advise: never think about the past or the future--that is profitless, meaningless, or useless waste of your time and life and brings only suffering, only mental suffering. If you follow the path, you will understand the past and the future, both. The results are immediate( akaaliko dhammo). You have to come to dhamma, then only you can see it (ehi passiko), you must experience it yourself (paccatta.m vditabbo). So that is why I said at the beginning, that you don't need any guidance. You are on the correct path. Well, what I mean is that it is in accordance with the Buddha-word. If you remember to apply the criterion with due diligence you will achieve what you wish. peace and happiness now and forever. Sukhii hotu. DC D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79672 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 10:51 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et philofillet Hi Ken > After that, everything went horribly wrong. :-) Well, obviously no hard feelings on either side. Hopefully we'll find ourselves discussing understanding of specific dhammas (ie abhidhamma details) where there can be common ground. This question of practice is where the twains can't meet. And that's ok. Metta, Phil #79673 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Dec 1, 2007 11:17 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et philofillet HI Nina and Ken O Thanks for your comments. No doubt, plentiful opportunities to develop understanding in daily life. > N: that is just your quiet time. I also get up very early (usually > before 5.30), and then I listen to tapes, or I read a sutta. Not > because I set myself rules, but it has grown like that. I know that I > will get too busy later on to listen or read. Nothing wrong with > seclusion. It can be bhaavanaa, mental development. > Those who feel that they want to be mindful of breathing could > interchange it with sutta reading, if they like this. The suttas are > direct exhortations from the Buddha, go straight to the heart, can > echo long after during the day. That is why I appreciate sutta > postings from Howard, Tep and others. I think the biggest difference between your approach and the approach I feel is urged by the Buddha is that you don't intentionally pursue a pre-determined meditation object. I think you feel that satipatthana should arise in any of the 4 foundations, no preference. And of course it can and does. But again and again I see the emphasis the Buddha placed on establishing mindfulness of the body. Without it, I think we can't have the post that the six animals lie down next to, we'll never have that post from occasional moments of mindfulness of the body, we'll never have that solid door that defeats objects (as opposed to the wet clay that they stick in) if we are counting on occasional, random moments of mindfulness of the body. It has to be developed intentionally. Well, it can't be *developed* intentionally, that happens, or it doesn't. But one has to start the ball rolling with diligent pursuit of a pre-determined meditation object. That seems pretty clear to me. Difficult to do, yes, you're right, and perhaps for many of us there are simply not the proper conditions for it to come to be developed. Fortuntaly, even the attempt is helpful in training the mind to stay out of harmful channels that have been laid down by habit, little by little. That's the way I see it, and I'll drop out of this thread now, thanks. Metta, Phil #79674 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 12:18 am Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" ashkenn2k Hi Charles I know you will quote me :-). But what is volition, a self? If it is self, then would Buddha say all dhammas are not self. Sounds contradictory isn't it? as I say again, Buddha used one, I, you many times in the sutta. Then would he be contradicting himself, on one hand talking about not self and on the other, keep saying these I, one, you. Understanding reality is not what we want to do at this moment, is understanding what is happening at this moment. Cheers Ken O #79675 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 12:36 am Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" ashkenn2k Hi Charles > I have to give you some credit, or maybe I just was not harsh > enough, anyway good (I thought to provoke you:-)). KO: I used to be easily provoked in emails :-) not now. In personal conversation in my life, I am still easily provokded, hahaha!, so many lobha and dosa. >in fact I can recall that a sutra presented the 5 as the aggregates of a being! I don't remember which > The sutra U brought up below is talking about the ESSENCE of a > being, that non of the components are that essence. This is not the Self I am talking about. KO: Are you talking of the orginal self? Its ok you can share your thoughts here and I can discuss with you about this as my background is quite diverse before becoming a dinosaur :-). Are you prepared to be open minded? if yes, then I am willing to share with you my personal experiences. Kind regards Ken O #79676 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 1:16 am Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina... philofillet Hi Dieter and Howard I enjoy reading your exchanges. Are you still having your offline discussion on abhidhamma? I think Howard (not sure about Dieter) has the same feeling as me, that while the suttanta is foremost, the abhidhamma is still of great interest and value, so I'd like to read what you guys are saying about it. It's hard to find people who feel the suttanta should come first but are still interested in abhidhamma...maybe you send it to me off-list if you're not keen on doing it here? Thanks Metta, Phil > D: thanks for quoting.. hopefully not only read by us .. ;-) > > with Metta Dieter > #79677 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 1:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. nilovg Dear Elaine, Robert A, Robert I liked your words: As Kh Sujin says, and as also DC says: Dhamma is not just in the book! As to the helpfulness of the Co, I would say, just read what you find helpful, no rule. Since you have been reading this co for such along time, would you share with us passages that you do find helpful? Larry posted all of it years ago and then we had discussions. Op 1-dec-2007, om 1:25 heeft shennieca het volgende geschreven: > You asked whether the commentaries are really helpful. I think, maybe > some are, but this particular commentary about how "dogs, jackals and > the like" know "going" as going, is not very helpful, unless you > understand how the animals knows it. I think, for Satipatthana Sutta, > the explanation from the Sutta is good enough. > ------ N: The dogs and jackals are mere an illustration, nothing more than that: anybody, also small children, can say: I know that I am going... sitting. But it has a deeper meaning. Nothing implied about mind-reading. --------- E: By the way, what is the message that the commentator is trying to get across from the meaning of ? Is it "being aware of going as going"? or "Being aware of moving as moving?" -------- N: These are the sutta words that the Co explains. < Who goes? No living being or person whatsoever. Whose going is it? Not the going of any living being or person. On account of what does the going take place? On account of the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity.> --------- The citta motivates the motion of ruupas. In the ultimate sense there is not the whole body, mere ruupas arising and falling away. The Point stressed here: no person is going, no self. This is elaborated on with details about ruupas: the four Great Elements and the derived (the other) ruupas. This is done to help the reader that what we take for the body are mere ruupas. And that it is citta that causes motion of what we call the body. quote: Further on subco: Oscillation: the element of motion (wind). -------- I give another quote from this co. which elaborates on the Sutta words. The monk has to be mindful in all his activities. Mindful of naama and ruupa. We read in the Commentary to the “Satipaììhåna Sutta” , in the section on the four kinds of Clear Comprehension, about clear comprehension in wearing robes: “... Within there is nothing called a soul that robes itself. According to the method of exposition adopted already, only, by the diffusion of the process of oscillation (the element of wind or motion) born of mental activity does the act of robing take place. The robe has no power to think and the body too has not that power. The robe is not aware of the fact that it is draping the body, and the body too of itself does not think: ‘I am being draped round with the robe.’ Mere processes clothe a process-heap, in the same way that a modelled figure is covered with a piece of cloth. Therefore, there is neither room for elation on getting a fine robe nor for depression on getting one that is not fine.” (I wrote in my Rupas) : This passage is a good reminder of the truth, also for laypeople. We are used to the impact of cloths on the body, most of the time we do not even notice it. Or we are taken in by the pleasantness of soft material that touches the body, or by the colour of our cloths. We can be mindful of softness or colour as only elements. In reality there are only elements impinging on elements. Nina. #79678 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... nilovg Hi Howard, Op 2-dec-2007, om 0:45 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, meditation heightens calm and clarity at that very time. But > more > importantly, regular, proper meditation conditions the more frequent > occasions for these at other times. Meditation conditions the mind > to make it a more > fit tool, not only in the midst of jhanas (especially the 4th), but in > general. A roiling pond is a turbid one, not easily penetrated by > sight. ------- N: When in jhana, there are no sense objects appearing, and thus no opportunity to come to know these as only dhammas that are conditioned. , but how, how?? You explained before that awareness is then carried over to daily life, but what exactly is understood then? More understanding of seeing, visible object? In what way? Nina. #79679 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... nilovg Dear Robert A, Op 2-dec-2007, om 3:51 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > When you become calm as you read a sutta with careful attention, it is > a calm that arises from concentration that takes you away from what is > going on in your mind and body. ------- N: we read in the suttas about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. This brings us back to reality now! Remember, when Khemaka was preaching about the five khandhas, naama and ruupa, the monks who were listeners attained enlightenment. That means, they were aware of naama and ruupa while listening. There was bhaavanaa, and there can be while reading, or listening to tapes or to Kh Sujin. There is calm with the kusala citta. no need for extra calm, as I see it. -----------. > > R: When you meditate you are seeing what is arising in your mind and > body moment to moment and becoming calm through that seeing, > which I would contend is a very different thing. ------- N: What arises should be seen as just dhamma, oherwise we cling to my mind, my body. 'From moment to moment', this makes me feel puzzled. Nina. #79680 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Dear Nina: You wrote: N: The dogs and jackals are mere an illustration, nothing more than that: anybody, also small children, can say: I know that I am going... sitting. But it has a deeper meaning. Nothing implied about mind-reading." DC: The discussion is not about the meanings that you see in the Commentators words. It is about the commentators STATEMENT. When we have a set of words, it is interpreted according to rules of grammar and the meanings ascribed to them, usually by a standard dictionary. Human communication is impossible, if each gives one's own meanings to the words (the marks on a pieces of paper or sounds). So what follows is really meaningless to us. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna. #79681 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:21 am Subject: Re: 3rd noble truth philofillet Hi anna and all Welcome to the group. Your comment on rebirth reminded me of a sutta I'd been trying to find again. The point of the sutta is that if the principle of kamma is true, if there is rebirth, we will benefit from having led a moral life. And if it isn't true, we will still benefit by having led a moral life. Something like that, though I don't know how a sutta could suggest that the principle of kamma isn't true... ...can anyone help identify this sutta? Probably AN. Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil > Can desires such as access to healthy > food, good relationships, financial stability, social harmony be really > annihilated. I am not able to take the idea of rebirth on faith, perhaps one > day i may develop supernormal powers and then this issue of repeated births > will be clear to me. #79682 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina... nilovg Hi Howard, I have nothing to add since we think along the same lines, at least as to the points brought up here. Not (yet?) with regard to meditation. Nina. Op 30-nov-2007, om 14:45 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > True, the idea of self comes in all the time, but understanding can > realize this as a conditioned dhamma. Everything is dhamma, she > stresses all the time. Effort is a dhamma, will is a dhamma. Let us > not forget this. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I certainly do not forget it. In fact I emphasize it frequently. #79683 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3rd noble truth dcwijeratna Dear Phil Read the famous kaalaana sutta and the apannaka sutta of MN. Kind regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79684 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. nilovg Dear DC, Op 2-dec-2007, om 11:15 heeft DC Wijeratna het volgende geschreven: > The discussion is not about the meanings that you see in the > Commentators words. It is about the commentators STATEMENT. When we > have a set of words, it is interpreted according to rules of > grammar and the meanings ascribed to them, usually by a standard > dictionary. Human communication is impossible, if each gives one's > own meanings to the words (the marks on a pieces of paper or > sounds). So what follows is really meaningless to us. ------- N: The statement of the Co is an elaboration in order to help the reader: no man or woman is going, etc. I personally find it helpful, but different opinions are possible. Nina. #79685 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et nilovg Hi Phil, no need to asnwer, you have lack of time. Op 2-dec-2007, om 8:17 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I think the biggest difference between your approach and the > approach I feel is urged by the Buddha is that you don't > intentionally pursue a pre-determined meditation object. I think you > feel that satipatthana should arise in any of the 4 foundations, no > preference. And of course it can and does. But again and again I see > the emphasis the Buddha placed on establishing mindfulness of the > body... ------ N: Mindfulness of the body, yes, this means: of rupas. But if there never is mindfulness of naama we would not know what is naama, what is ruupa. There should be no limitayion, it just depends what appears because of its own conditions. Then we learn that we cannot create any nama or rupa. Whatever appears is merely dhamma, a conditioned reality. ------- Ph: It has to be developed intentionally. Well, it can't be *developed* intentionally, that happens, or it doesn't. But one has to start the ball rolling with diligent pursuit of a pre-determined meditation object. ------ N: How could concentration on a kasina help to know seeing or hearing? ------- Nina. #79686 From: "clive123za" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any Suttas describing Buddha eating Meat? clive123za Hi Chris, Snipped a part of the post, leaving the following - > > The husbandry of animals during the Buddha's time could not compare > with the appalling cruelty of modern Factory Farming methods - the > latest being that it is more cost-effective to actually tear the > large animal apart while alive rather than render it unconscious or > kill it first. > > Never having been a vegan or vegetarian in the past, I am presently > rethinking the whole scenario, and finding it harder and harder to > talk about animals and their sufferings as Conceptual Stories. > > metta > Chris > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > What you say here is shocking. Where did you read that animals are killed this way? My main reason for not eating meat is the way in which the animals are treated simply as 'product'. My decision is also informed by the precepts but hypocritically I do eat fish. My philosophy is that if I want to eat it, I must be prepared to kill it myself. Take care Clive #79687 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 12:20 am Subject: Abhidhamma StudyRe: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpret... upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Dieter) - In a message dated 12/2/2007 4:16:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: Hi Dieter and Howard I enjoy reading your exchanges. Are you still having your offline discussion on abhidhamma? ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It has rather much fizzled out as a private, two-person process. As you know, Dieter has been on DSG for while now, and I think that the two of us being "here" has largely supplanted the other effort. ----------------------------------------------------------- I think Howard (not sure about Dieter) has the same feeling as me, that while the suttanta is foremost, the abhidhamma is still of great interest and value, so I'd like to read what you guys are saying about it. It's hard to find people who feel the suttanta should come first but are still interested in abhidhamma...maybe you send it to me off-list if you're not keen on doing it here? ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: We began with the Abhidhammata Sangaha, going *very* slowly, and then pretty much stopped. As it stands, I'm so busy with so many things these days - ironically much worse since retiring! - that I find myself wary of being a really active contributor to a really intense study of Abhidhamma at this time. However, if Dieter and you and maybe one or two more neophytes did establish a study group, I would join in and play it by ear as to how active I'd become. As for "where" we would do it, I'd prefer it off list, as Dieter & I did before, but I certainly wouldn't insist on that. -------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks Metta, Phil =============================== With metta, Howard #79688 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Dear Nina, Many thanks for the clarification. Kind regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79689 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 12:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/2/2007 5:00:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 2-dec-2007, om 0:45 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, meditation heightens calm and clarity at that very time. But > more > importantly, regular, proper meditation conditions the more frequent > occasions for these at other times. Meditation conditions the mind > to make it a more > fit tool, not only in the midst of jhanas (especially the 4th), but in > general. A roiling pond is a turbid one, not easily penetrated by > sight. ------- N: When in jhana, there are no sense objects appearing, and thus no opportunity to come to know these as only dhammas that are conditioned. , but how, how?? You explained before that awareness is then carried over to daily life, but what exactly is understood then? More understanding of seeing, visible object? In what way? Nina. ============================= I honestly don't know what you are looking for in the way of a reply. The experience(s) of meditating is exactly that - experiential. The Buddha described it inj many ways in many suttas, but it needs to be directly experienced - as does red, and sound, and flavors. With metta, Howard #79690 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:42 am Subject: Perfections Corner (43) nichiconn Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 7: The Perfection of Truthfulness, taken from the book "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ The perfection of truthfulness accompanies the perfection of pa~n~naa. We should make an effort to know what sacca, truthfulness, is: sincerity in the development of kusala, no deviation from kusala. If we happen to deviate from kusala we should know that kusala has not yet reached accomplishment. Our defilements are still very strong and without pa~n~naa we easily deviate from kusala. When sati-sampaja~n~na arises it can realize when we go wrong and this is a condition for restraint in the future. Truthfulness that is superior, ariya sacca, is the truth penetrated by the ariyan. The penetration of the noble Truths is the condition for becoming an ariyan, an enlightened person. At this moment we try to listen and to understand the true Dhamma. Nothing else can be as beneficial in our life as the understanding of the truth of realities {*}. We should make an effort to understand the realities that are appearing and to develop also all other kinds of kusala. The characteristics of realities can be penetrated in conformity with the understanding acquired through listening to the Dhamma and the study of it. At this moment realities are arising and falling away, they are not a being, not a person, not self. However, we are not able to see the arising and falling away of realities because of our many defilements and because of ignorance that hides the truth. We need the perfection of truthfulness, so that we are sincere in the development of all degrees of kusala through body, speech and mind, be it daana, siila or bhaavana. Otherwise we shall be overwhelmed by the power of akusala. Seeing the benefit of truthfulness is a condition for accumulating it. We may contemplate truthfulness within ourselves, but we should also reflect on the truthfulness of the Buddha when he was still the Bodhisatta and developed the perfection of truthfulness. {*} By developing understanding of the truth of realities, paramattha sacca, one will penetrate the four noble Truths and this is the ultimate benefit of truthfulness. ==to be continued, connie #79691 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:43 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (71) nichiconn dear friends, Part 10 14. Ti.msanipaato 1. Subhaajiivakambavanikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 374. "Kusumitasikharaa ca paadapaa, abhigajjantiva maaluteritaa; kaa tuyha.m rati bhavissati, yadi ekaa vanamogahissasi. 372. At the same time the trees with blossoming crests cry out, as it were, when shaken by the wind. What delight will there be for you if you plunge into the wood alone? txt: Kusumitasikharaati supupphitaggaa. Abhigajjantiva maaluteritaati vaatena sa~ncalitaa abhigajjantiva abhitthanitaa viya ti.t.thanti. Yadi ekaa vanamogahissasiiti sace tva.m ekikaa vanamogaahissasi, kaa naama te tattha rati bhavissatiiti attanaa baddhasukhaabhirattattaa evamaaha. 372. With blossoming crests means: with well-flowered top. [They] cry out, as it were, when shaken by the wind means: shaken by the wind, they cry out, as it were (va), thundering, as it were (viya), as they stand there. If (yadi) you plunge (ogahissasi) alone (ekaa) into the wood means: if (sace) you plunge (ogaahissasi) alone (ekikaa) into the wood. He says, "What delight indeed for you will there be there?" because of the fact that he himself is very infatuated with the happiness linked to it. verse: 375. "Vaa.lamigasa"nghasevita.m, ku~njaramattakare.nulo.lita.m; asahaayikaa gantumicchasi, rahita.m bhi.msanaka.m mahaavana.m. 373. You wish to go without companion to the lonely, frightening great wood, frequented by herds of beasts of prey, disturbed by cow elephants who are excited by bull elephants. txt: Vaa.lamigasa"nghasevitanti siihabyagghaadivaa.lamigasamuuhehi tattha tattha upasevita.m. Ku~njaramattakare.nulo.litanti mattaku~njarehi hatthiniihi ca migaana.m cittataapanena rukkhagacchaadiina.m saakhaabha~njanena ca aalo.litapadesa.m. Ki~ncaapi tasmi.m vane iidisa.m tadaa natthi, vana.m naama evaruupanti ta.m bhi.msaapetukaamo evamaaha. Rahitanti janarahita.m vijana.m. Bhi.msanakanti bhayajanaka.m. 373. Frequented by herds of beasts of prey (vaa.la-miga-sa.mgha-sevita.m) means: frequented (upasevita.m) here and there by herds of beasts of prey like lions and tigers (siiha-byagghaadi-vaa.la-miga-samuu-hehi). Disturbed by cow elephants who are excited by bull elephants in rut and cow elephants, animals with minds tormented [by lust], and by the breaking of branches, trees, and shrubs, etc. Although there was not anything like this in that wood at that time, wanting to frighten her, he said that the wood was like that. Lonely (rahita.m) means: without people (jana-rahita.m = vijana.m). Frightening means: producing fear. verse: 376. "Tapaniiyakataava dhiitikaa, vicarasi cittalateva accharaa; kaasikasukhumehi vaggubhi, sobhasii suvasanehi nuupame. 374. You [will] go about like a doll made of gold, like a celestial maiden in Cittalataa. O incomparable one, you [will] shine with beautiful garments of fine muslin, with excellent clothes. txt: Tapaniiyakataava dhiitikaati rattasuva.n.nena vicaritaa dhiitalikaa viya sukusalena yantaacariyena yantayogavasena sajjitaa suva.n.napa.timaa viya vicarasi, idaaneva ito cito ca sa~ncarasi. Cittalateva accharaati cittalataanaamake uyyaane devaccharaa viya. Kaasikasukhumehiiti kaasira.t.the uppannehi ativiya sukhumehi. Vaggubhiiti siniddhama.t.thehi. Sobhasii suvasanehi nuupameti nivaasanapaarupanavatthehi anupame upamaarahite tva.m idaani me vasaanugo sobhasiiti bhaavina.m attano adhippaayavasena ekantika.m vattamaana.m viya katvaa vadati. 374. Like a doll (dhiitikaa) made of gold means: like a walking doll (dhiitalikaa) of red gold, you will go about (vicarasi), you will wander (sa~ncarasi) here and there now, like a golden image prepared by means of a mechanical device by a very skillful puppet maker. Like a celestial maiden (aacharaa) in Cittalataa means: like a celestial maiden of the devas (dev'-accharaa) in the garden named Cittalataa. With garments of fine muslin (kaasika-sukhumehi) means: exceedingly fine [garments] produced in the kingdom of Kaasi (Kaasi-ra.t.the). Beautiful means: smooth and well polished. O incomparable one ('nuupame), you will shine (sobhasi) with excellent clothes means: he speaks of something that is to be as if it is actually happening, influenced by his own wish: "O incomparable one (anupame), O one beyond compare, because of the clothing, clothes, and dress [you will have], you [will] shine, [thinking,] 'Now he is at my beck and call (vasaanugo).'" ===to be continued, connie #79692 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:51 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma StudyRe: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpret... nilovg Hi Howard, why keep it secret? The last I heard from Dieter was: why nibbaana one of the four paramattha dhammas, and then it stranded. Can't you continue? Nina. Op 2-dec-2007, om 14:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > However, if Dieter and you and maybe one or two more neophytes did > establish a study group, I would join in and play it by ear as to > how active I'd > become. > As for "where" we would do it, I'd prefer it off list, as Dieter & > I did > before, but I certainly wouldn't insist on that. #79693 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 6:04 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin reminded us that people living at the time of a previous Buddha, the Buddha Dípaòkara, were very patient. We read in the “Khuddhaka Nikåya”, “Chronicle of the Buddhas” (II A, Account of Sumedha, vs. 71-75) that devas and men rejoiced when they heard that the Buddha Dípaòkara proclaimed Sumedha to be the future Buddha. We read that they said: “If we should fail of the Dispensation (teachings) of this protector of the world, in the distant future we will be face to face with this one. As men, crossing a river but, failing of the ford to the bank opposite, taking a ford lower down cross over the great river, even so, all of us, if we miss (the words of) this Conqueror, in the distant future will be face to face with this one [1]." They realized that the development of satipatthåna takes a long time, that it takes aeons. The Bodhisatta had to listen to twentyfour Buddhas before he could attain Buddhahood in his last life. We can still study his teachings, but time will come that these disappear. There will be a future Buddha, Ariya Metteyya, and if we do not attain enlightenment in this Buddha era, we may have an opportunity to listen to his teachings. When Acharn Sujin spoke of the gladness and patience of people at the time of Sumedha, I said that I found it difficult to be glad about the prospect of having to wait for many aeons until paññå is developed. But Acharn Sujin reminded us to have courage and gladness while developing right understanding. It is true, when paññå arises there cannot be anxiety at the same time. Paññå can be developed at the present moment and we should not think of the future and how long the road is; what counts is only the present moment. There is no self who can do anything and thus, it is of no use to think of an idea of ìmy progressî. Listening to the Dhamma, studying it and considering it are the right conditions for satipatthåna. --------- 1. They will be face to face with the Buddha Gotamma, who was previously the Bodhisatta Sumedha. ****** Nina. #79694 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 6:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... nilovg Hi Howard, Op 2-dec-2007, om 14:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I honestly don't know what you are looking for in the way of a reply. > The experience(s) of meditating is exactly that - experiential. The > Buddha > described it in many ways in many suttas, but it needs to be directly > experienced - as does red, and sound, and flavors. ------- N: Only directly experienced? Nina. #79695 From: "Robert" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 6:32 am Subject: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... avalo1968 Hello Nina, N: we read in the suttas about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound. This brings us back to reality now! Remember, when Khemaka was preaching about the five khandhas, naama and ruupa, the monks who were listeners attained enlightenment. That means, they were aware of naama and ruupa while listening. There was bhaavanaa, and there can be while reading, or listening to tapes or to Kh Sujin. There is calm with the kusala citta. no need for extra calm, as I see it. Robert A: I don't believe reading about naama and ruupa is the same as experiencing naama and ruupa, and I believe experiencing naama and ruupa is a good use of your time. N: What arises should be seen as just dhamma, oherwise we cling to my mind, my body. 'From moment to moment', this makes me feel puzzled. Robert A: I do a very poor job of making this clear in words. I'm afraid it is only if you tried it yourself is there any chance you would see what I am talking about with meditation, unless there is someone else here who could express what we are talking about better than myself. With metta, Robert A. #79696 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 7:08 am Subject: Re: Any Suttas describing Buddha eating Meat? sukinderpal Hi Chris, =================== Chris: But does anyone had any Sutta references in which the Buddha was actually eating meat. I am aware of the Devadatta attempt at schism and the Buddha not making vegetarianism compulsory for monks, but rather, providing the Threefold rule. However this is an instance 'talking about' what monks ought to do - not showing an instance of the Buddha actually eating meat. The husbandry of animals during the Buddha's time could not compare with the appalling cruelty of modern Factory Farming methods - the latest being that it is more cost-effective to actually tear the large animal apart while alive rather than render it unconscious or kill it first. Never having been a vegan or vegetarian in the past, I am presently rethinking the whole scenario, and finding it harder and harder to talk about animals and their sufferings as Conceptual Stories. Sukin: Devadatta case reminds me of Indian Gurus of various religious sects who apparently try to win the confidence of their followers by themselves being vegetarians and making a rule for those followers to do the same. I think people take these things as sign of moral purity and so are more than happy to themselves follow such rules, after all when they *do* follow them, it gives them great satisfaction to be "doing the right thing". I remember, once I asked a cousin of mine who is a follower of one such sect, whether he ever pays attention to the greed he has for certain kinds of vegetarian food and any aversion when he can't find food so easily, especially when he goes out of town for a holiday? I suggested that while he would feel that he is doing the right thing by becoming a vegetarian, he overlooks the *greed* which is the real problem for everyone. I added that religious teachers who don't really understand the `Truth' of cause and effect, they tend to bring out rules which have nothing whatsoever to do with morality, unlike that which is reflected in the Five precepts as taught by the Buddha. And then there is my own wife who seem to follow the reasoning put forward by Discovery Channel about "eating meat = encouraging killing" and therefore, "discourage killing = don't eat meat". She gets very emotional about this, and so I have given up the idea of changing her mind about this. The farthest I got with her once was: 1. You are giving too much importance to your "self" and the ideas which flow. 2. Is `eating meat' the same as `killing'? Should we risk confusing the two if we got too carried away by such line of thought? 3. Take the example of the Jains who got so carried away by the idea of not-killing that they literally go around "Trying not to kill" living beings *imagined*. 4. Not everybody is going to decide the same as you and so there will be a market for those who kill anyway. 5. Even if you and everyone else stopped eating meat and those who kill stop doing so, has this added anything to their understanding about the danger of killing and hence their tendency to the same has in any way lessened? 6. Are you satisfied just with *you* doing the right thing and not have any concern about the butchers enough to approach them and teach them about the wrongness of killing? 7. Should you not pay more attention to the greed and aversion that arises in daily life with regard to whatever it is that you might be eating or looking for to eat? All this was said in a Vegetarian restaurant where the food was not as good as she would have liked. ;-) The above two examples are people who have no knowledge about Right and Wrong View. I think as a Buddhist one has more than anything else, to pay attention to "Self View" coming in with regards to such concerns. Moreover, you as a Buddhist will understand that while one is focused wrongly on a distorted sense of morality, one may actually be overlooking Tanha playing the role of both teacher and pupil in all this. This very tanha unexamined will lead one to any amount of akusala when the situation changes, if anything, when one is reborn after this life with absolutely no memory of the thoughts which propel one's actions in this life. On the other hand if one were to better understand tanha and how this can lead to killing, this understanding is never lost. The above said, I think it is good if you do decide to be a vegetarian, say for health reasons. This does not contradict with the Dhamma. When you see meat, you don't have to proliferate to thoughts about "dead and slaughtered animal", conventionally, it could be seen as `protein' or simply as you always have, namely pork, chicken, beef etc, something which may or not be bad for your health. This in my opinion won't interfere with any potential to knowing upon `seeing', visible object as visible object, upon touching, knowing hardness / softness, heat / cold etc. However with *wrong thinking* such as in the examples given, I think patipatti becomes harder to come by. Good to be talking to you Chris, and thanks for the chance to reflect on this some more. Metta, Sukin #79697 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 7:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... nilovg Dear Robert A, Op 2-dec-2007, om 15:32 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > I don't believe reading about naama and ruupa is the same as > experiencing > naama and ruupa, and I believe experiencing naama and ruupa is a good > use of your time. ------- N: it is the word experiencing that may cause confusion. Well, this is also a difficult subject for me to be expressed in words. What I learnt is this: of course we experience hardness and sound all day, but is this with sati and pa~n~naa? These can arise when there was enough listening and considering. Enough understanding of the fact that there is no person who can create them. That is why Kh Sujin said: no need to think of satipatthana. Such thinking gives rise to all kinds of ideas that many moments of sati can be conditioned by going to a quiet place and do specific things. As soon as we think of frequency, I believe that we are wrong already. -------- > N: What arises should be seen as just dhamma, oherwise we cling to my > mind, my body. > 'From moment to moment', this makes me feel puzzled. > > Robert A: > I do a very poor job of making this clear in words. I'm afraid it > is only if > you tried it yourself is there any chance you would see what I am > talking > about with meditation, unless there is someone else here who could > express what we are talking about better than myself. ------ N: From moment to moment makes me think of frequency. There are characteristics appearing through one doorway at a time. We read that in the suttas. This can be learnt very gradually. Nina. #79698 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 8:06 am Subject: Re: 3rd noble truth lbidd2 Hi Anna, It could be argued that tranquility is a taste of nibbana insofar as tranquility is peace and peace is the characteristic of nibbana. However, there is another kind of taste that is not so much a cessation as it is freedom. Insight is a taste of freedom from suffering and can be found in ordinary activities. Tranquility is a taste of nibbana and insight is a taste of nibbana. They are very different, but in either case there is no suffering. You may cultivate either one or blend the two. Regarding rebirth, the basic principle behind that is dependent arising. This present state arose dependent on that previous, completely different state. There was no being that passed from the past to the present, but there is a kind of continuity. The present doesn't arise randomly but the past doesn't continue either. As for the moral equation, I think we have to take that on faith: good deeds are rewarded and bad deeds are punished (in the next life). Rich people did something good in a previous life and poor people did something bad in a previous life. However, we can see in present experience that good deeds are their own reward and bad deeds are their own punishment. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "anna bu" wrote: > > Hi All, > I gravitated towards Buddhism because of direct experience of #79699 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 8:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Ken O, and Dr. Han Tun, A Sujin: "When we touch any part of the body, the characteristic of softness or hardness appears. Hardness and softness are ruupas which arise and then fall away immediately. Because of sa~n~naa we think of different parts of the body and I will give an example of this. Someone who had a leg being amputated still has a feeling that he has that leg. It is sa~n~naa, remembrance, which conditions him to think that he still has that leg, although it has been amputated. There is remembrance of all the ruupas of that leg. "In reality the ruupa which appears now falls away immediately and, when there are the appropriate conditions, it is replaced by another ruupa which arises and falls away again. However, people think, because of sa~n~naa, of their whole body from head to toes, just as in the case of the person who had his leg amputated but still has a feeling that he has that leg. Only when the wrong remembrance of self, attaa sa~n~naa, because of which one is used to thinking that the whole body exists, has been eradicated, can one really understand that all dhammas are anattaa, non-self. Then there is nothing left of the body as a whole, there is only one characteristic of ruupa at a time which is appearing. This is the way to understand the meaning of anattaa." Larry: Just as an imaginary leg is mind, so a real leg is mind. Pain always arises in a specific location in the body, even if that location is imaginary. It never arises separate from a body context. The body experience is body consciousness and/or perception and includes spatial orientation. If Dr. Han Tun could share his knowledge, I would be interested to know what the medical understanding of pain is. Larry #79700 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 10:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina... moellerdieter Hi Phil .. Howard , Nina.. you wrote : I enjoy reading your exchanges. D: thanks , Phil .. I have enjoyed reading many of your contributions too Phil: Are you still having your offline discussion on abhidhamma? D: I fully agree with Howard's comment ' It has rather much fizzled out as a private, two-person process. As you know, Dieter has been on DSG for while now, and I think that the two of us being "here" has largely supplanted the other effortit fizzled out ..' Phil: I think Howard (not sure about Dieter) has the same feeling as me, that while the suttanta is foremost, the abhidhamma is still of great interest and value, D: you are a good observer : I am not yet sure whether the abhidhamma is of great interest and value to me .. there is still the state of critical examination , not to talk about my impression that the Sutta Pitaka includes all what I need to know. But as ignorance/not knowing is still my companion , I try my best to be open minded Phil: so I'd like to read what you guys are saying about it. It's hard to find people who feel the suttanta should come first but are still interested in abhidhamma...maybe you send it to me off-list if you're not keen on doing it here? D: let me jump to Nina's comment to Howard: 'why keep it secret? The last I heard from Dieter was: why nibbaana one of the four paramattha dhammas, and then it stranded. Can't you continue?' Howard probably refered to off list talk because among other reasons misunderstandings are easier solved than in front of the whole forum ..but no secret at all. ' We began with the Abhidhammata Sangaha, going *very* slowly, and then pretty much stopped..' ..it stranded not only 'why nibbaana one of the four paramattha dhammas' ( Nina, you have a very good memory ;-) ) but also about the issue of concept , having Ven. Narada's translation/interpretation as common source. I for my part have no objection to continue/restart with these topics on-list , anybody interested to participate at convenience as usual ..but not taking a role of a leading panelist.. with Metta Dieter #79701 From: "Raymond Hendrickson" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 10:16 am Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" bitakarma Hi Charles, you said.. > Now for the rest: > > > > U said the Buddha used "I" quite often in the Sutras. I know you are right. > The Buddha talked about himself a lot. I guess this is only partially why > "I" say the "I" exists - well if you think the Buddha is a liar sometimes > then, OK, we do have a problem. ........ > > > > > Charles DaCosta > > Here are a couple of quotes from Suttas that address this issue of using terms such and I, me, etc. MN 74 ...."A bhikkhu whose mind is liberated thus: (See below), Aggivessana, sides with none and disputes with none: he employs the speech currently used in the world without adhering to it" The note on the text says this refers to using such terms as I. (liberated thus is defined before as.....(ie from text before 'He understands:"Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.') MN 74 From DN 9 we get....."So too, whenever the gross acquired self is present, we do not speak of the mind-made or formless acquired self,...........whenever the formless acquired self is present, we do not speak of hte gross acquired self or the mind-made acquired self, we speak of the formless acquired self. But, Citta, these are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world, which the Tathagata uses without misapprehending them." So I think it is clear that the Buddha used these terms just as means of communication and using the terms in no way means the Buddha held there was some sort of self............Ray..... #79702 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:34 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma StudyRe: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpre... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Dieter, Phil, and all) - In a message dated 12/2/2007 8:51:31 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, why keep it secret? The last I heard from Dieter was: why nibbaana one of the four paramattha dhammas, and then it stranded. Can't you continue? Nina. Op 2-dec-2007, om 14:20 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > However, if Dieter and you and maybe one or two more neophytes did > establish a study group, I would join in and play it by ear as to > how active I'd > become. > As for "where" we would do it, I'd prefer it off list, as Dieter & > I did > before, but I certainly wouldn't insist on that. ================================= I would be amenable to doing it on list or off, and I will agree to do it on the list should Dieter & Phil wish it. But I would much prefer doing it "privately" (i.e., not on DSG), as the pace could be exactly as we wish, we could make comparisons, positive or negative (even to the point of invidious), with sutta material, freely noting, in a no-holds-barred manner, incompatibilities we seem to see without ruffling anyone's feathers. As I view it, it is not a matter of "secrecy," but a matter of setting it up as a very small group of people with a similar perspective, all rank beginners in Abhidhamma, engaged in studying it and looking to see what it is that we might be missing by examining it with fresh eyes and not from the sole perspective of a particular teacher (Ajahn Sujin), but broadly, from many angles. More generally, I don't favor "private study groups" as part of DSG. I don't think there should be a "Meditator's Corner" that presumes a pro-meditation position. I don't think there should be a "Khun Sujin Corner" that presumes agreement with her understanding of the Dhamma. And I don't think there should properly be a "Sutta-Triumphant Abhidhamma Corner" as part of DSG either. (Just my opinion, folks.) With metta, Howard #79703 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/2/2007 9:19:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 2-dec-2007, om 14:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I honestly don't know what you are looking for in the way of a reply. > The experience(s) of meditating is exactly that - experiential. The > Buddha > described it in many ways in many suttas, but it needs to be directly > experienced - as does red, and sound, and flavors. ------- N: Only directly experienced? ------------------------------------------------ Howard: The Buddha's descriptions are useful as confirmations (or the opposite) of what one experiences. But without the experiencing, the descriptions are to no avail. Imagine describing red color as "warm" to an unsighted person! -------------------------------------------- Nina. ====================== With metta Howard #79704 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina... nilovg Dear Dieter, thanks for your sympathetic post. Op 2-dec-2007, om 19:01 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > D: you are a good observer : I am not yet sure whether the > abhidhamma is of great interest and value to me .. there is still > the state of critical examination , not to talk about > my impression that the Sutta Pitaka includes all what I need to know. > But as ignorance/not knowing is still my companion , I try my best > to be open minded ------- N: With these words you show that you are openminded. Critical examination is good at all times. How well said: ignorance is our companion. I could add: lobha as well. ------ D: anybody interested to participate at convenience as usual ------ N: good idea. Nina. #79705 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... nilovg Hi Howard, Op 2-dec-2007, om 19:39 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But without the experiencing, the descriptions are > to no avail. Imagine describing red color as "warm" to an unsighted > person! ------ N: I want to say more on this subject but I want to bring it very carefully. When there is an opportunity I say more. Nina. #79706 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:13 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma StudyRe: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpre... nilovg Hi Howard, Op 2-dec-2007, om 19:34 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > As I view it, it is not a matter of "secrecy," but a > matter of setting it up as a very small group of people with a similar > perspective, all rank beginners in Abhidhamma, engaged in studying > it and looking to > see what it is that we might be missing by examining it with fresh > eyes and not > from the sole perspective of a particular teacher (Ajahn Sujin), but > broadly, from many angles. > More generally, I don't favor "private study groups" as part of DSG. I > don't think there should be a "Meditator's Corner" that presumes a > pro-meditation position. I don't think there should be a "Khun > Sujin Corner" that > presumes agreement with her understanding of the Dhamma. And I > don't think there > should properly be a "Sutta-Triumphant Abhidhamma Corner" as part > of DSG > either. ------- N: I see your point as to the advantages of a small group, and no different camps. Nina. #79707 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) nilovg Dear Sarah, Larry, and all, I am glad this was reposted. Op 2-dec-2007, om 17:34 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > Kh Sujin: Only when the wrong remembrance of self, attaa sa~n~naa, > because > of which one is used to thinking that the whole body exists, has been > eradicated, can one really understand that all dhammas are anattaa, > non-self. Then there is nothing left of the body as a whole, there > is only > one characteristic of ruupa at a time which is appearing. This is > the way > to understand the meaning of anattaa. ------ N: This is very helpful and important. In India I also have been thinking of this: all the ruupas of the body fall away completely, and there is nothing left of them. It is wrong sa~n~naa to believe that the whole body exists. There is nothing left of the body as a whole, we should often contemplate this. Nina. #79708 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:43 am Subject: to Phil: impediments to jhana nilovg Dear Phil, I thought of this post for you since you keep on mentioning the impediments to jhana. A quote from a post by Kom; this is the continuation of Kom's post: 7) The texts say this about Jhana: a) Have 10 obstacles (pari-potha), versus just 1 for satipathana Extremely hard to maintain c) Most people that were mentioned to develop Jhana clearly see faults in the 5 sensualities. 8) Getting more controversial: a) The 10 obstacles mentioned are virtually impossible to overcome with a life of a householder who so much enjoy the 5 sensualities. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Having just one strong desire will force you to start over from the beginning. How many Jatakas about Bodhisatta that you have seen where the bodhisatta lost all his Jhana attainment because he saw a beautiful woman? Are you married? Are you engaged in sexual relationship? Now, the probability of the attainment is becoming less and less. c) Do you see faults of the 5 sensualities? Are you willing to attenuate, very substantially, the seeking /exposures to the 5 sensualities in everyday life? Or is this a temporary thing? d) Many people are attracted to Buddhism because the mediation offers "peace" in dailylife. The peace they are after is unlikely to be the "right" peace, and is not the highest fruit. Peace in Buddhism at the minimum means kusala, with Jhana being higher kusala, with nibbana being the highest peace. 9) Really controversial: a) Nowadays, Many people who think they are developing Jhana are deluded. They can't tell the difference between the kusala states and states with attachment (lobha) and delusion (moha). Take anapanasati for example. Try observing your breath right now. If you are like me, the feeling of that observation will be neutral. Is that kusala or akusala? If you can't tell the difference, then you can't develop Jhana through Anapanasati. Now, try take something simpler, development through compassion (karuna). Pick your kid. When you do something for your kid when he is in pain, it can be either because of the attachment you have for your kid, or for the kusala compassion you have for him. Can you tell the difference? One gauge that was given is that if you equivalently treat other people (not the one you know or like) in the same situation, it is likely to be compassion. Without being able to tell the difference between kusala and akusala state, you can't develop this to the level of total absorption. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Jhana attainment is not neccessary to attain the path. The tipitaka mentioned instances of Ariyans without Jhana attainments. c) People develop tranquil meditation believe that by doing this, the wisdom will become sharper when observing other realities. Some people think that panna at the patti-patti (practice) level can only become sharper because there are development of panna (about realities) at all levels, not because of the tranquility that one might attain via tranquil meditation. 10) A point I have heard, remembered, but haven't bought into: Developing tranquil meditation nowadays is only possible to the level of upacara (access concentration), but not Jhana (total absorption). I think my conclusion is that it only feels like that there seems to be a institutional discouragement only because: I) Priority of learning II) Hard to verify the genuine instances of Jhana development. III) Unclear if needed for path attainment. kom (end quote) Nina. P.S. Lodewijk will for his memoires write about Hammerskjold. when we first arrived in New York the plane accident had just taken place. I shall send it to you. #79709 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:20 am Subject: Abhidhamma StudyRe: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpre... ksheri3 Hi Howard, I have no clue as to what it is you're discussing with Nina and others, however your thoughts on holding a discusion concerning debate on the suttas is interesting. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ================================= > I would be amenable to doing it on list or off, and I will agree to do > it on the list should Dieter & Phil wish it. > But I would much prefer doing it "privately" (i.e., not on DSG), as the > pace could be exactly as we wish, we could make comparisons, positive or > negative (even to the point of invidious), with sutta material, freely noting, in > a no-holds-barred manner, incompatibilities we seem to see without ruffling > anyone's feathers. colette: I like this concept you've struck upon in "localizing" the debates you would be willing to have with others. For instance, in a small group that is open and acceptable to "other's" positions and opinions, you center the focus of the thought(s). Cosider a drug cartel testing and manufacturing drugs for the human body, you can inject or ingest the drug but it has to go specifically to the part of the body it's manufactured for in order to be of any value. While the debate may be nothing more than a soap opera for others to watch for their amusement, the other aspect is that they are not being effected by the debate and can leave the debate without "clinging" to any of the opinions they were exposed to. I certainly agree that by watching the debate they've injected the concepts debated into their mind but it's not a very active and concentrated form of the concepts. They can leave the thoughts at any time, while the participants in the debate probably cling to those thoughts and allow them to fester. -------------------------------------- As I view it, it is not a matter of "secrecy," but a > matter of setting it up as a very small group of people with a similar > perspective, all rank beginners in Abhidhamma, engaged in studying it and looking to > see what it is that we might be missing by examining it with fresh eyes and not > from the sole perspective of a particular teacher (Ajahn Sujin), but > broadly, from many angles. colette: Bravo! Encore! You cognize that the small group has the chance of being "mesmerized" by the single teacher giving their point of view. It sounds almost as if "Brainwashing" techniques. This is a problem for any and all small groups or, if I may, "cults". I've enjoyed the pleasure of being accepted with my arcane views and hopefully have the confidence that "others" can see that in these numerous texts that I issue my opinion about, that they can see that I'm suggesting that the texts themselves are brainwashing the individuals and that the texts were written by somebody and published by somebody else, another person, which means there's a lot of room for diviation from the material that should be published or printed. Ajahn Sujin takes the enormous pressure and responsibility of being in control of all these people that openly seek her out and ask for her advice or wisdom -- is the recipient worthy of receiving the wisdom and/or advice? That's a tough question to answer. ---------------------------------------------- > More generally, I don't favor "private study groups" as part of DSG. I > don't think there should be a "Meditator's Corner" that presumes a > pro-meditation position. I don't think there should be a "Khun Sujin Corner" that > presumes agreement with her understanding of the Dhamma. And I don't think there > should properly be a "Sutta-Triumphant Abhidhamma Corner" as part of DSG > either colette: certainly. if these or those groups did exist than they would not be part of the DSG, they would be a sub-set of the larger group. We could suggest that they would be a "mutation" of the group, DSG, or an off-shoot of the DSG group. In the case of a mutation then the ugliness of the leader's obsessive compulsive "control freak" mind may come into play which is one of the ugliest and dirty things to have to explore and examine, however, it would have to be done if and when certain groups such as you suggest appear. SAFETY FIRST is one of my pet peaves. A single individual can get lost sooooooo easily and before they know it they've even lost themselves. Which shows the direct relationship your concerns about Sujin may be for her own good and safety. ----------------------------------- (Just my opinion, folks.) colette: GLAD TO HAVE THEM. toodles, colette #79710 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 12:53 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" dacostacharles Dear Ken 0 Volition is not The Self we are all talking about, volition can be perceived as a component of that Self we are all talking about. Now back to the Buddha's "I": You said, ". Then would he be contradicting himself, on one hand talking about not self and on the other, keep saying these I, one, you." In terms of what the Buddha said, there is no contradiction (I keep saying that) unless you believe the Buddha's "I" is the essence of that Buddha, and that "I" is eternal as well as unchanging. Also, if the term for At-man (I forget the Hindu word) was associated with that "I" of the Buddha when he stated it. You also said, "Understanding reality is not what we want to do at this moment, is understanding what is happening at this moment." If I understand you correctly, you mean -- understanding Realities is not as important as understanding what is happening at this moment. If so I would support that. Charles DaCosta PS: I love to quote ya :-), it all good entertainment ! _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken O Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 9:19 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" Hi Charles I know you will quote me :-). But what is volition, a self? If it is self, then would Buddha say all dhammas are not self. Sounds contradictory isn't it? as I say again, Buddha used one, I, you many times in the sutta. Then would he be contradicting himself, on one hand talking about not self and on the other, keep saying these I, one, you. Understanding reality is not what we want to do at this moment, is understanding what is happening at this moment. <....> #79711 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 1:18 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" dacostacharles Dear Ken O U got me laughing again! I am so glad to here that "U" r no longer easily provoked by emails; and don't worry, "I" am sure that soon you will n't be easily provoked in personal life either! The term Original-Self is new to me. It could be, because what I was Not talking about was the Essence. Open, :-) - I have a short story for you --- First the backdrop: Representatives from all the religions in the world sat down to eat (All beings have to eat). The Satanist sat next to the Christian; the Muslim sat between the Greedy capitalist and the Jew. The Pagan sat directly across from the Christian and next to The Buddhist, who by the way came with the Hindu, . In the middle of dinner The mischievous Anarchist yelled out What is the most important, .. They all agreed Morality/The-Law was the most important. Well then, the Voodoo Priest ask what is the next most important, .. They all agreed Wisdom was the second most important (The wisdom to know when and how to break The-Law. And ... I sit at such a table Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken O Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 9:36 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" Hi Charles > I have to give you some credit, or maybe I just was not harsh > enough, anyway good (I thought to provoke you:-)). KO: I used to be easily provoked in emails :-) not now. In personal conversation in my life, I am still easily provokded, hahaha!, so many lobha and dosa. <....> #79712 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 9:05 am Subject: Re: Abhidhamma StudyRe: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpre... upasaka_howard Hi, Colette - In a message dated 12/2/2007 4:48:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, ksheri3@... writes: Hi Howard, I have no clue as to what it is you're discussing with Nina and others, however your thoughts on holding a discusion concerning debate on the suttas is interesting. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: ================================== LOLOL! Colette, your first clause broke me up! ;-)) With metta, Howard #79713 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 3:30 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Larry (Sarah, Ken O), > Larry: If Dr. Han Tun could share his knowledge, I would be interested to know what the medical understanding of pain is. Han: The sensation of pain is a protective mechanism that makes us aware of tissue injury, or disease or functional disorder. There are pain receptors or sensory nerve endings (in the skin and certain internal tissues) which start the *path* of pain. The pain sensation then travels along the neurons in the peripheral nerves to the spinal cord, and from there to the brain. There is also what we called *referred pain*. Most internal organs are poorly supplied with pain receptors. For this reason pain from internal organs is often difficult to locate. The pain is then referred to a superficial area that may be some distance away. A person with angina who feels cardiac pain in his left arm is experiencing the referred pain. The pain originates in the heart as a result of ischemia (insufficient oxygen to the heart muscles) but it is felt in the arm. Neurons from both the heart and the arm connect with the same neurons in the spinal cord. The brain interprets the incoming message as coming from the arm. This is because pain from the body surface is far more common than internal pain. The brain acts on the basis of its past experience. [Han: This may be similar to the function of sa~n~naa, and the brain may be *conditioned* too!] There is also psycho-somatic condition. This is a physical symptom or illness that originates in, or is worsened by, emotional factors. Examples include ulcers, migraine headaches, irritable bowel syndrome and lower back pain. In the psycho-somatic illness known as *conversion disorder*, a distressed person develops physical symptoms that mimic a disease of the nervous system or a general medical condition but are in fact not due to any physical cause. Symptoms can include frequent urination, difficulty in walking, paralysis or localized weakness, inability to speak, difficulty in swallowing, inability to urinate, loss of sense of pain or touch, blindness, double vision, deafness, hallucinations and seizures. Another psycho-somatic illness, known as *somatization disorder*, involves a history of symptoms that lack a physical cause, usually affecting the gastro-intestinal system, the heart and lungs, the central nervous system, or the genitals. [Han: Therefore, you see that the *mind* can play a very important role in pain, and in pain management.] [Sources: Introduction to Human Anatomy and Physiology by Eldra Pearl Solomon; and Complete Medical Encyclopedia, by American Medical Association.] In view of the above facts, I agree with Larry’s remarks. > Larry: Just as an imaginary leg is mind, so a real leg is mind. Pain always arises in a specific location in the body, even if that location is imaginary. It never arises separate from a body context. The body experience is body consciousness and/or perception and includes spatial orientation. But to be honest, I do not know the meaning of “spatial orientation.” Respectfully, Han #79714 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 4:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "all the ruupas of the body fall away completely, and there is nothing left of them. It is wrong sa~n~naa to believe that the whole body exists. There is nothing left of the body as a whole, we should often contemplate this." Larry: I agree that all the rupas of the body are impermanent but I wonder if you are saying the rupas of the leg, for example, do not arise if there is no consciousness of them, or the rupas of the leg do not arise at the same time as the rupas of the arm, for example. It seems to me that if all the rupas of the body arise at the same time, then that is a whole. We are not consciousness of a whole, but take various rupas as signs of the whole. The whole is empty of being an object of consciousness except through signs, which is another way of saying it is empty of own nature. One might say there is no experience of the whole, but I don't think it would be precisely correct to say there is no whole at all. Larry #79715 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 5:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) lbidd2 Hi Han, Thanks very much for the medical analysis of pain. In your view is there a contradiction or incompatibility between the medical understanding of feeling in general and abhidhamma? If so, I think it would be a good idea to resolve that problem. You raised a question at the end: Larry: "The body experience is body consciousness and/or perception and includes spatial orientation." Han: "But to be honest, I do not know the meaning of "spatial orientation." Larry: I merely meant that body consciousness and probably perception together are aware of shapes and relative location in space, as is eye, ear, and nose consciousness. Not sure about taste consciousness. Incidentally, this discussion hinges on one of two ways of understanding "object of consciousness". An object of consciousness can be a reference point, as in "desire for a new car" where the new car is the reference point but the desire is something else. Or, an object of consciousness is what is experienced by consciousness, as in the sensation of warmth when touching fire. Here warmth is body consciousness but not the fire element, in my opinion. As I understand it, rupa is not an experience but 5-door consciousness is the experience that reflects rupa (more or less accurately). This is what I mean by "body experience is body consciousness" above. In that sense all experience is mind only. Larry #79716 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 6:36 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,212 Vism.XVII,213 Vism.XVII,214 Vism.XVII,215 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 212. And during life, result conditions The other five in fourfold way; The non-resultant kind can be Explained in the aforesaid way. 213. Again, in the course of an existence, the other resultant mentality, which has as its physical basis the eye sensitivity, etc., is a condition in four ways, as postnascence, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the rest of the five beginning with the eye base. And as the resultant, so also the non-resultant is explained; therefore [the mentality] classed as profitable, etc., should be understood as their condition in four ways. This, firstly, is how it should be understood what bases mentality alone is a condition for in rebirth-linking and in the course of an existence, and how it is a condition. 214. [(2) Materiality as Condition] Not even for a single base In immaterial becoming Is matter a condition here. But in five-aggregate becoming Basis as matter is condition At rebirth in a sixfold way For the sixth base; the primaries Are for the five in fourfold way. 215. As to matter, the materiality of the physical [heart-] basis is a condition in rebirth-linking in six ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the sixth, the mind base. But the four primaries are in general, that is to say, in rebirth-linking and in the course of an existence, conditions in four ways, as conascence, support, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for any of the five bases beginning with the eye, whenever they arise. *********************** 212. tattheva sesapa~ncanna.m, vipaaka.m paccayo bhave. catudhaa avipaakampi, evameva pakaasita.m.. 213. tattheva hi pavatte sesaana.m cakkhaayatanaadiina.m pa~ncanna.m cakkhupasaadaadivatthuka.m itarampi vipaakanaama.m pacchaajaatavippayuttaatthiavigatapaccayehi catudhaa paccayo hoti. yathaa ca vipaaka.m, avipaakampi evameva pakaasita.m. tasmaa kusalaadibhedampi tesa.m catudhaa paccayo hotiiti veditabba.m. eva.m taava naamameva pa.tisandhiya.m pavatte vaa yassa yassa aayatanassa paccayo hoti, yathaa ca paccayo hoti, tathaa veditabba.m. 214. ruupa.m panettha aaruppe, bhave bhavati paccayo. na ekaayatanassaapi, pa~ncakkhandhabhave pana.. ruupato sandhiya.m vatthu, chadhaa cha.t.thassa paccayo. bhuutaani catudhaa honti, pa~ncanna.m avisesato.. 215. ruupato hi pa.tisandhiya.m vatthuruupa.m cha.t.thassa manaayatanassa sahajaataa~n~nama~n~nanissayavippayuttaatthiavigatapaccayehi chadhaa paccayo hoti. cattaari pana bhuutaani avisesato pa.tisandhiya.m pavatte ca ya.m ya.m aayatana.m uppajjati, tassa tassa vasena pa~ncannampi cakkhaayatanaadiina.m sahajaatanissayaatthiavigatapaccayehi catudhaa paccayaa honti. #79717 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 6:42 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > > Hi Ken > > > After that, everything went horribly wrong. :-) > > > Well, obviously no hard feelings on either side. Hopefully we'll find > ourselves discussing understanding of specific dhammas (ie abhidhamma > details) where there can be common ground. This question of practice is > where the twains can't meet. And that's ok. > Hi Phil, I am going to sound like someone who won't take no for an answer, but whatever we discuss in this forum will inevitably involve the question of formal practice. You say we might find ourselves discussing specific dhammas. That would be nice, but the anatta characteristic of dhammas means there can be no control over them. No control means no formal practice. This must be understood. It is a touchy subject but there can be no excuse for skirting around it - not even for the sake of pleasant conversation. In this discipline dhammas themselves - specifically the eight path factors - are the practice. They arise purely by conditions. Ken H #79718 From: "Phil" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 7:59 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et philofillet Hi Ken > It is a touchy subject but there can be no > excuse for skirting around it - not even for the sake of pleasant > conversation. Well, there comes a time when enough has been said. You'll have trouble getting me involved in an ongoing discussion about "practice" and "no control" for now. That might change. I have other priorities that are much more superficial related to behavioral patterns, conditioned habits. I'm much more interested in what I think, do, and speak than about whether there is control over the dhammas invovled. But I appreciate reading discussions about it now and then, and perhaps there will be conditions for me to be intensely interested in that sort of thing someday. No control over that, honestly... > > In this discipline dhammas themselves - specifically the eight path > factors - are the practice. They arise purely by conditions. I think so too. No question about that. If I sit to meditate that is conditioned by having read this or that, if you study abhidhamma, that is conditioned by this or that. If I feel enthusiastic about abstaining from evil deeds, that is conditioned by reading and reflecting on the Buddha's teaching, and other Dhamma related material, and listening to discussions, and common-sense stuff my mother or whoever taught me and so on. Everything we do, think, and speak is obviously conditioned. Ken, I like you, but I don't really have time to discuss at length with you because the stuff that drives you doesn't drive me at this time! Thanks and please let me gooooooo! Metta, Phil #79719 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 2:26 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" dacostacharles Hi Raymond, I had been hoping for one of these types of sutras! To say, "I" use that because everyone else uses it, would tell me that the Buddha could not be as wise as we are lead to believe, or he would not have to do that. If it were a courtroom he would be charged guilty for claiming his existence as the Tathagata or referencing it as "I," .. And then when he argues "Oh I did not mean that, I don't exist." Well . come on . Personal experience, . unless seeing is not real, and sight objects are not real, .. NOW for the Sutra you brought-up - Phrases like, "the Tathagata uses without misapprehending them," relates more to the idea of the following things then to him not being good at explaining himself. 1. non-attachment to the "I," . 2. the impermanence of the "I," . 3. the "I," . are not the essence of the Being, sorry, Buddha 4. the "I," . can be the source of suffering. 5. .. I could go on and on.. The next key phrase: "He understands: "Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being." Phrases like the above talk about being at the point where desire does not exist any more, the point where the cycle of samsara has been broken (for Hindus - he will not be reborn - his purpose from the beginning), the point where a moral life will always continue to exist. All this means that the power over desire, the life of morality, the wisdom of not-suffering are all permanent and unchanging (there is no need to be controlled, just is). In simple laymen's terms, this is the point where "self-interest" (i.e., over that of others) and craving, does not exist. Now if you are not at that point, then a self exists, yes you exit. So be careful with commentaries, sometimes the authors are so attached to a view that they can be misleading, taking You away from the breath of Buddhist philosophy and practice (i.e., a place where you can find Your-self and lose it, i.e., give it up). Goto go will clean it up nexttime Charles DaCosta PS: I exist in samsara! _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Raymond Hendrickson Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 19:16 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" Hi Charles, you said.. > Now for the rest: > > > > U said the Buddha used "I" quite often in the Sutras. I know you are right. > The Buddha talked about himself a lot. I guess this is only partially why > "I" say the "I" exists - well if you think the Buddha is a liar sometimes > then, OK, we do have a problem. ........ > > > > > Charles DaCosta > > Here are a couple of quotes from Suttas that address this issue of using terms such and I, me, etc. MN 74 ...."A bhikkhu whose mind is liberated thus: (See below), Aggivessana, sides with none and disputes with none: he employs the speech currently used in the world without adhering to it" The note on the text says this refers to using such terms as I. (liberated thus is defined before as.....(ie from text before 'He understands:"Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.') MN 74 From DN 9 we get.....<....> #79720 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 9:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Larry, The main difference between the medical understanding of feeling in general and abhidhamma is the physical base (vatthu). In medical science, the physical base for feeling is the brain, whereas in abhidhamma the physical base is hadaya-vatthu that exists in the blood of the heart (heart-base). I don’t think this difference can be resolved. I thank you very much for the explanation with regard to your last paragraph of the previous post. Yes, all experience is mind only. Respectfully, Han --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Han, > In your view is > there a contradiction or incompatibility between the > medical > understanding of feeling in general and abhidhamma? > If so, I think it > would be a good idea to resolve that problem. > #79721 From: "colette" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 9:24 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et ksheri3 As a matter of actual fact, earlier I replied to another group that what I and a few of my friends were doing was "spinning like a top, or draddle, and that we might care to invite the Whirling Dirbishes of Turkey to join us, HOWEVER, BOTH YOU, KEN, AND PHIL, HAVE SENT ME FOR A LOOP AT THE MOMENT. Phil: "...where the twains can't meet" what the heck is that crap? So, the obvious presumption is that intersections never happen because they cannot happen. Intersections that do happen are therefore delusional and need drug therapy as the means with which to solve the problem of a mind thinking other than the status quo. "mother's little helpers" have been the rage in the status quo since they began enjoying being "divided" as submissive i.e. subdivisions or suburbia. --------------------------------- > > Well, obviously no hard feelings on either side. Hopefully we'll > find > > ourselves discussing understanding of specific dhammas (ie > abhidhamma > > details) where there can be common ground. This question of > practice is > > where the twains can't meet. And that's ok. > > > I am going to sound like someone who won't take no for an answer, but > whatever we discuss in this forum will inevitably involve the > question of formal practice. > colette: How so? You seem to take the position of some people I've had the unfortunate pleasure of running into years ago, Discordians. Here you take the position that EVERYTHING IS TO BE QUANTIFIED AND QUALIFIED SO THAT IT CAN BE REDUCED INTO A SIMPLE MATHEMATICAL EQUATION, some Burroughs or something like that. They run around mocking intelligence by saying Hail Aris, all the time. Ken, do you seriously mean to say that people, in a discussion cannot have ulterior motivation and that the motivation can begin in the sub- conscious or un-conscious? I have seen it since 1980, well I could go to something like 1979 at a Bastion & Blessings manufacturing facility but I'd rather not go into that since it's before I actually began studying the ARcane, the occult, the obscure, etc. <...> Do you actually believe that you or any person can formally reduce existance into a simple addition or subtraction equation? FORMALITY? Sorry sonny, you ain't stuffing me in a mass produced shirt or blouse. ----------------------------------- > You say we might find ourselves discussing specific dhammas. That > would be nice, but the anatta characteristic of dhammas means there > can be no control over them. colette: wow, how much nitro did you use in your tank to gain that excelleration and achieve that volocity? Is there any oxygen in the upper half of your body. Sorry, you may not be a drag racer, maybe you're a space cadet which places you in a different league. with this as the case I've gotta wonder and inquire if your body is still intact since the G-forces you must place on your body certainly can't allow you to have any form of consciousness. Anatta and Dhamma are two seperate concepts in Buddhism yet you seem to want to place them in the same lot. It's kindof like a lot of mortgages where a single lot equals 500 hundred mortgages. You cannot put certain mortgages together, it's like apples and oranges, THEY DO NOT MIX. ----------------------------------------- No control means no formal practice. colette: "ground control to major tom, you circuit's dead can ya hear me major tom." David Bowie. No control can mean sooooooooo many other things than "no formal practice". Where oh where does it say in any stinking users manual such as a holy bible or quran or... where does it say that formal practice is the only definition suitable for control and that if there is CHAOS or if there is NO CONTROL then that means that there is no formal practice? <...>---------------------------------- > This must be understood. It is a touchy subject but there can be no > excuse for skirting around it colette: get it straight baby, you are the bimbo wearing the wool sweater <....>The wool is clearly pulled over your eyes, sonny. ------------------------------------ - not even for the sake of pleasant > conversation. > colette: do you mean that I can get dirty and nasty and talk about the potential actions that could occur in situations that you display and that you advocate? I could make some real "nice" coversation. --------------------------------------------- > In this discipline dhammas themselves - specifically the eight path > factors - are the practice. They arise purely by conditions. > colette: I'm gonna leave that one alone and go to bed, however I will suggest that "dhammas" IN NO WAY CAN BE REDUCED TO A SPECIFIC ENCLOSED SET for your rediculous addition and subtraction equations that ARE THE ONLY CAUSE IN YOUR LIFE and that give you no care for the concept of Karma since you are a robot addicted to the cause which is the addition and subtraction equations that own your life. Thanx for the tremendous amount of ignorance and humour. If you want to be like Don Rickles then I'm sorry but you'll have to hire better joke writters since you humor here was not very well received. Of course, you'll have to pay those writers better than the writers you're paying now. toodles, colette #79722 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:04 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et sarahprocter... Hi James, (KenO, Tep & all), --- buddhatrue wrote: >If you could > show me where the Buddha directly taught this then I would have to > agree. However, you give me quotes by Ken O to support this idea. > Nothing against Ken O, but he isn't the Buddha. .... S: I wrote: >As he [Ken O] also wrote in another message (#79067): Ken O: "Uncontrollable meant that self cannot control the conditions and causes.<...> As I said earlier, when one think, one ponders, one incline, then it becomes a habit. This is what would happen to kusala with panna and also with akusala. It works both ways. That is the reason I felt I keep suggesting about reading and inverstigation about the dhamma." If we wait until any idea of self has been completely eradicated to listen to, speak and consider dhammas as anatta at the present moment, we'll wait forever.< S: Let's go with MN 19, Dvedhaavitakka Sutta "Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and ponders upon thoughts of renunciation, he has abandoned the thought of sensual desire to cultivate the thought of renunciation, and then his mind inclines to thoughts of renunciation. If he frequently thinks and ponders uponj thoughts of non-ill will.....non-cruelty........his mind inclines to thoughts of non-cruelty. S: The reverse was given too. Tep also wrote and quoted the following along the same lines: "T: There are evil and worldly thoughts, and there are good thoughts (samma-sankappa) that are beyond the world. The Buddha taught us to stay away from the former. (Itivuttaka, 110, BPS, John Ireland transl) "Whether walking or standing, Sitting or lying down Whoever thinks such thoughts That are evil and worldly – He is following a wrong path, Infatuated with delusive things. Such a bhikkhu cannot reach Enlightenment which is supreme. Whether walking or standing, Sitting or lying down, Whoever overcomes these thoughts- Such a bhikkhu is able to reach Enlightenment which is supreme." " S: If you meant you wished me to quote suttas on anatta and no-control, then the Anattalakkhana (SN22:59) and other suttas on this topic again and Ken O might help me by adding more:-) Metta, Sarah ========= #79723 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) lbidd2 Hi Han, I agree the conflict between heart-base and brain can't be resolved except to say that either would work as an object of satipatthana. The problem I am having is the question whether all pleasant and unpleasant feeling, bodily and mental, can be located in the body. This is very important in recognizing exactly what feeling is. I think these feelings can be so located but there is the problem of differentiating feeling from touching and I don't understand why mental feeling, happiness for example, would be located in the body. Perhaps I'm not correctly identifying feeling but when I look for feeling apart from the body I can't find it. Can medical science shed any light on this problem? Larry ----------------- Han: "The main difference between the medical understanding of feeling in general and abhidhamma is the physical base (vatthu). In medical science, the physical base for feeling is the brain, whereas in abhidhamma the physical base is hadaya-vatthu that exists in the blood of the heart (heart-base). I don't think this difference can be resolved." #79724 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 2, 2007 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et buddhatrue Hi Sarah, Glad that you wrote back. I am never really satisfied with "agreeing to disagree" ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: Let's go with MN 19, Dvedhaavitakka Sutta > > "Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that > will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and > ponders upon thoughts of renunciation, he has abandoned the thought of > sensual desire to cultivate the thought of renunciation, and then his mind > inclines to thoughts of renunciation. If he frequently thinks and ponders > uponj thoughts of non-ill will.....non-cruelty........his mind inclines to > thoughts of non-cruelty. > > S: The reverse was given too. James: I consider this "doing something". Even though it takes place entirely in the mind, I still consider it "doing something". You must not consider it doing something because it isn't a physical doing?? > > Tep also wrote and quoted the following along the same lines: > > "T: There are evil and worldly thoughts, and there are good thoughts > (samma-sankappa) that are beyond the world. The Buddha taught us > to stay away from the former. > > (Itivuttaka, 110, BPS, John Ireland transl) > > "Whether walking or standing, > Sitting or lying down > Whoever thinks such thoughts > That are evil and worldly – > He is following a wrong path, > Infatuated with delusive things. > Such a bhikkhu cannot reach > Enlightenment which is supreme. > > Whether walking or standing, > Sitting or lying down, > Whoever overcomes these thoughts- > Such a bhikkhu is able to reach > Enlightenment which is supreme." " > > S: If you meant you wished me to quote suttas on anatta and no-control, > then the Anattalakkhana (SN22:59) and other suttas on this topic again and > Ken O might help me by adding more:-) James: Okay, thank you for the sutta quotes. I still consider this a doing of something. I am confused as to why you think it isn't. After all, the mind isn't naturally going to incline toward thoughts of renunciation, non-cruelty, etc., there must be an effort for this to happen. This is Right Effort of the Noble Eightfold Path. Again, how is this not "doing something"? > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= > Metta, James #79725 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. sarahprocter... HI Dieter, Back to #79057 Just a couple more comments here - --- Dieter Möller wrote: > D: there are without many householders whose understanding is not only > equal but deeper than those of some monks. For the purpose of > questioning and checking the Buddha recommended in particular issues of > greed, hate and delusion .. i.e. the latter in respect to anatta . > What I meant with a 'weak position ' is our lack of detached > livelihood .. .... S: I think any 'detached livelihood' would depend on momentary cittas without defilements. ... > By 'mainstream Buddhism' I had the usual practise of meditation in > mind , which - to reasons still not clear to me - is somehow objected > by the 'Gang' .... .... S: As Han indicated in a post about pre- and post-war Burma, 'mainstream Buddhism' and ideas about 'practise of meditation' change over-time. Modern 'mainstream' meditation courses, retreats and practises along Goenka and Mahasi lines, for example, are very, very new and controversial. The question is rather, what is bhavana as taught by the Buddha? I think we can find a big difference between this and 'mainstream Buddhism'. If you'd like to discuss more about the meaning of bhavana (mental development or meditation), according to the Buddha's teachings, we can. Metta, Sarah ======== #79726 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) nilovg Hi Larry, Op 3-dec-2007, om 1:42 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Larry: I agree that all the rupas of the body are impermanent but I > wonder if you are saying the rupas of the leg, for example, do not > arise > if there is no consciousness of them, or the rupas of the leg do not > arise at the same time as the rupas of the arm, for example. ------- N: No, I did not say this. But when hardness appears we know that this has fallen away already, that only a sign of it appears, and also, that all ruupas we call the body fall away at each moment. ------- > > L: It seems to me that if all the rupas of the body arise at the > same time, > then that is a whole. We are not consciousness of a whole, but take > various rupas as signs of the whole. ------- N: True as you say, the whole body cannot be experienced. We can only think of it because of sa~n~naa that remembers different parts. When there is awareness and understanding of hardness, there is only that ruupa in the world, no other reality, thus no whole. We begin to have right understanding. --------- > L: The whole is empty of being an > object of consciousness except through signs, which is another way of > saying it is empty of own nature. One might say there is no experience > of the whole, but I don't think it would be precisely correct to say > there is no whole at all. ------- N: Remember the sutta from K. IV, II, § 82, about what the world is. It crumbles away. No whole in reality. You agree that all the rupas of the body are impermanent, but this can be realized through insight. However, we can begin thinking in the correct way about impermanence: this pertains to this moment. To each ruupa of the body now. Nina. #79727 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:49 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. corvus121 Hi DC I like all replies, terse or wordy! :~)) I was tempted by the connection I saw in your post and ethology which happens to be another of my interests. From time to time, there is debate on DSG about whether Dhamma is scientific (or needs to be). Similarly, there has been some debate in ethology about to what extent it is scientific to talk about the subjective experiences of animals and there have been some very persuasive books written. Here is a snippet from Professor Stamp Dawkins: "To claim that a bird can develop the concept of 'a human being' sounds, on the face of it, even more fanciful than the idea that it could count. But Herrnstein and Loveland and Seigel and Honig have been able to show experimentally that they do just that, and more." So, as you say, animal behaviour can be observed, as can human behaviour, but god cannot be. Doesn't Dhamma tell us, though, that the khandhas can be observed? And is it not valid to observe the khandhas arising and passing away in other "entities" (but limiting the validity of those observations just as an ethologist would limit the validity of his observations due to known/possible flaws in the design of the experiment)? You wrote: "As far as this list is concerned, yes all this talk about atta/anatta/bhikkhus thanissaro/ abhidhamma etc. is a waste of time. All those are not based on knowledge. They are based on mere thoughts; beliefs." My difficulty is seeing how talk of anatta as a characteristic of namarupa is any more or less scientific (or "based on knowledge") than those experiments that are claimed to have shown that birds can have a concept of 'a human being'. To me, they are all interpretation, a valid intellectual exercise that is a precursor to the "direct seeing" we read about in the suttas. The interpretation becomes invalid as soon as clinging and dogmatism arise and people claim to directly see things they don't. [To placate Ken H, I don't think it is dogmatic to hold that, according to mainstream Theravada, the Buddha taught anatta as something more than a technique.] DC, how do you translate and understand the sutta phrase "directly see"? Your comments below are very interesting, by the way ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: But as far as the teaching of the Buddha is concerned. This is the case. Any animal that is endowed with the five aggregates would behave in the same manner. That why according to Dhamma, that gods animals, human beings etc. are equal. Best wishes Andrew #79728 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation, no Nina. nilovg Dear Sarah, Ken O, Tep, (Han, if he wants to pursue this) and all, I am grateful to Ken O, also to Tep for quoting the suttas. Op 3-dec-2007, om 8:04 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > If we wait until any idea of self has been completely eradicated to > listen > to, speak and consider dhammas as anatta at the present moment, > we'll wait > forever.< ---------- N: Well said, I was inclined to think: no Nina, no Lodewijk, well, I am not so far yet. But important to begin thinking in the correct way, as the sutta quotes indicate. ------- > > S: Let's go with MN 19, Dvedhaavitakka Sutta > > "Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that > will become the inclination of his mind.... If he frequently thinks > and > ponders upon thoughts of renunciation, he has abandoned the thought of > sensual desire ..." -------- N: Clinging to persons also is included in sensual desire. Clinging to sense objects. > --------- > "T: There are evil and worldly thoughts, and there are good thoughts > (samma-sankappa) that are beyond the world. The Buddha taught us > to stay away from the former. > > (Itivuttaka, 110, BPS, John Ireland transl) > > "Whether walking or standing, > Sitting or lying down > Whoever thinks such thoughts > That are evil and worldly – > He is following a wrong path, > Infatuated with delusive things. > Such a bhikkhu cannot reach > Enlightenment which is supreme... ---------- N: Appreciating this text, the evil and worldly thoughts can be: thinking that this beloved person exists, infatuated with delusive things. In this light I transcribe from the audio: 16 august, A a, the last part: where Kh Sujin explains that when one does not believe in a person mettaa is broader, wider. I think metta is purer when not thinking of this person, that person. There is the danger of being partial. She explains that if one does not accept that there is not this or that person who exists (there is no Lodewijk, Nina, Sarah, Jon), there is a turning towards wrong view little by little. I believe that this can happen without noticing it. She said: Ivan remarked that people hear about impermanence, but then ask questions about other aspects of the teachings instead of pursuing this subject. I think the truth of impermanence has to be applied all the time to this moment. Realities are not what they appear to be. It seems that I see people, but only visible object is seen. Body, no matter my own or someone else's, does not exist, all the ruupas we call body fall away at each moment. .As KH sujin said, it takes time to understand the truth, but the sutta quotes remind me that correct thinking is necessary, otherwise we go into the direction of wrong view. Nina. #79729 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Larry, The human brain is the most complex mechanism known. The subject you are discussing concerns with the area of the brain called cerebrum. It is the largest, most prominent part of the brain covered by cerebral cortex which is the convoluted, outer layer of gray matter. For convenience, we can divide the functions performed by the cerebrum into three categories: 1. Sensory functions: The cerebrum receives information from the sense receptors and then interprets these messages so that we “know” what we are seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, or feeling. These functions are carried out by areas of the cerebrum known as sensory areas. 2. Motor functions: The motor areas of the cerebrum are responsible for all voluntary movements and for some involuntary movement. 3. Associated functions: Association is a term used to describe all of the intellectual activities of the cerebral cortex. These include learning and reasoning, memory storage and recall, language abilities, and even consciousness. Association areas also link sensory with motor areas. -------------------- The cerebrum is divided into two hemispheres, left and right. Each hemisphere is again divided into six lobes. 1. Frontal lobe, contains the motor cortex which controls voluntary movements of skeletal muscles, and one part of the frontal lobe is concerned with directing the formation of words. 2. Parietal lobe, has the primary sensory area, which receives information from the sensory receptors in the skin and joints. Important sensory association areas in the parietal lobe receive and integrate information about visual, auditory, and taste sensations from other areas of the cortex and thalamus. Through this integration process, persons become aware of themselves in relation to their environment. They are able to interpret characteristics of objects that they feel with their hands and to comprehend spoken and written language. 3. Occipital lobe, receives information from the thalamus about what we see and integrates the information in order to formulate an appropriate response. The area that receives the visual information is known as the primary visual area, the portion that integrates the information is the visual association area. 4. Temporal lobe, is concerned with reception and integration of auditory messages. Part of the temporal lobe is concerned with emotion, personality, and behavior. 5. Limbic lobe, is thought to be a link between emotional and cognitive (thought) process. 6. Central lobe, is thought to be involved in both autonomic and somatic activities. -------------------- Han: From the above medical point of view, it is clear that the feelings are *processed* by the brain, but I do not know whether it can be said that the feelings are *located* in the brain. Respectfully, Han --- LBIDD@... wrote: #79730 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 5:18 am Subject: Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. scottduncan2 Dear Nina and Robert A, Regarding: "... Subco: " Scott: A certain sober perspective is put forward that is missing in modern commentaries. It is clear to me that the teaching of most neo-commentators is that which is set forth on the list by those in favour of 'practise' mediated by 'will'. I see the arguments as being arguments in favour of a role for self in practise. This is today's status quo. To me this refects a devolution and an erosion. I think it is possible to be able to know the difference between jackal awareness and true 'awareness' which would have its own unique qualities - the foremost being that it is not subject to will. I think that it is possible to know the qualities of jackal awareness as well. I think these are easy to tell since that is the awareness I have most of the time. Personally, I don't mind knowing this awareness for what it is, with its own qualities, while trying not to believe that it is anything more than ordinary. Should this be such an insult? I think it will be cool one day to suddenly know what the true characteristics of something are - then this will be true awareness. Sincerely, Scott. #79731 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 5:49 am Subject: Perfections Corner (43) nichiconn Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 7: The Perfection of Truthfulness, taken from the book "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ We read in the "Basket of Conduct" III, 11, Conduct of Ka.nhadiipaayana {*} about Ka.nhadiipaayana who was dissatisfied for more than fifty years with his life as a recluse, and who only for the last seven days could lead this life with confidence: "And again, when I was Ka.nhadiipaayana {**} , a seer, I fared dissatisfied for more than fifty years. No one knew of this dissatisfied mind of mine for I told no one; the dissatisfaction went on in my mind. A fellow Brahma-farer, Ma.n.davya, a friend of mine, a great seer, in connexion with a former deed, acquired impalement on a stake. I, after attending to him, restored him to health. Having asked permission I went back to what was my own hermitage. A brahman friend of mine, bringing his wife and little son- the three people, coming together, approached as guests. While I was exchanging greetings with them, seated in my own hermitage, the youth threw a ball along (and) angered a poisonous snake. Then that little boy, looking for the way by which the ball had gone, touched the head of the poisoned snake with his hand. At his touch, the snake, angered, relying on its strong venom, angry with utmost anger, instantly bit the youth. As he was bitten by the poisonous snake the youth fell to the ground, whereby afflicted was I; that sorrow (of the parents) worked on mine. Comforting them that were afflicted, shaken by grief, first of all I made the highest, supremely glorious asseveration of truth: 'For just seven days, I, with a mind of faith, desiring merit, fared the Brahma-faring. Until that time, my faring for more than fifty years I fared unwillingly. By this truth may there be well-being, the poison destroyed, may Ya~n~nadatta live.' With this (asseveration of) truth made by me, the brahman youth who had trembled with the strength of poison, rousing himself, stood up and was well. There was no one equal to me in truth- this was my perfection of Truth." {*} See also Ka.nhadiipaayana Jaataka, no. 444. {**} Ka.nha means black. His body became stained when he sat under his friend Ma.n.davya's body who was impaled on a stake and dripping with blood. We read in the Commentary to this passage: "The Bodhisatta who was in that life named Dipaayana, went to see his friend Ma.n.davya. He (Ma.n.davya) was impaled on a stake and because Dipaayana excelled in siila he did not neglect this recluse. He stood there leaning on a spear throughout the three watches of the night. He acquired the name Kanhadipaayana (kanha meaning black), because his body became black by the drops of blood that streamed from the recluse Ma.n.davya's body and that had dried up. Question: What is the cause that the Great Man who during many thousands of existences had the inclination to renunciation and who found happiness in the brahma-faring, was in this life dissatisfied with it? Answer: This was because of the instability that is characteristic of non-enlightened people. Question: Why did he not enter again the married state? Answer: At first he saw the disadvantage in the sense pleasures, and because of his inclination to renunciation he became a monk. However, because of the lack of wise consideration he became dissatisfied with the brahma-faring. Although he could not abandon that dissatisfaction, he disliked to be blamed by people who might say, 'Kanhadipaayana raves on and on, he is unreliable. He left his wealth and went forth from the household life; he left his possessions and then he wants to return again to these.' Because he feared that his sense of shame and fear of blame would be destroyed, the Great Man, full of suffering and unhappy feeling, even cried and shed tears that streamed over his face. In this way he continued the brahma-faring and he did not leave it." ==to be continued, connie #79732 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 5:49 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (71) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 11 14. Ti.msanipaato 1. Subhaajiivakambavanikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 377. "Aha.m tava vasaanugo siya.m, yadi viharemase kaananantare; na hi matthi tayaa piyattaro, paa.no kinnarimandalocane. 375. I should be at your beck and call if we were to dwell in the grove, for there is no creature dearer to me than you, O kinnarii with pleasant eyes. txt: Aha.m tava vasaanugo siyanti ahampi tuyha.m vasaanugo ki.mkaarapa.tissaavii bhaveyya.m. Yadi viharemase kaananantareti yadi maya.m ubhopi vanantare saha vasaama ramaama. Na hi matthi tayaa piyattaroti vasaanugabhaavassa kaara.namaaha. Paa.noti satto, a~n~no kocipi satto tayaa piyataro mayha.m na hi atthiiti attho. Atha vaa paa.noti attano jiivita.m sandhaaya vadati, mayha.m jiivita.m tayaa piyatara.m na hi atthiiti attho. Kinnarimandalocaneti kinnariyaa viya mandaputhuvilocane. 375. I should be at your beck and call means: I would be at your beck and call as your obedient servant. If we were to dwell in the grove (kaanan'-antare) means: if both of us should dwell together and delight together in the wood (van'-antare). For there is no creature dearer to me than you means: he is telling the reason for his being at her beck and call. Creature means: living being. There is no other being that is dearer to me than my [own] life. O kinnarii (kinnari) with pleasant eyes (manda-locane) means: with pleasant, wide-opened eyes like a kinnarii's. verse: 378. "Yadi me vacana.m karissasi, sukhitaa ehi agaaramaavasa; paasaadanivaatavaasinii, parikamma.m te karontu naariyo. 376. If you will do my bidding, being made happy, come, live in a house. [You will] dwell in the calm of a palace. Let women do attendance upon you. txt: Yadi me vacana.m karissasi, sukhitaa ehi agaaramaavasaati sace tva.m mama vacana.m karissasi, ekaasana.m ekaseyya.m brahmacariyadukkha.m pahaaya ehi kaamabhogehi sukhitaa hutvaa agaara.m ajjhaavasa. "Sukhitaa heti agaaramaavasantii"ti keci pa.thanti, tesa.m sukhitaa bhavissati, agaara.m ajjhaavasantiiti attho. Paasaadanivaatavaasiniiti nivaatesu paasaadesu vaasinii. "Paasaadavimaanavaasinii"ti ca paa.tho, vimaanasadisesu paasaadesu vaasiniiti attho. Parikammanti veyyaavacca.m. 376. If you will do my bidding, being made happy, come, live (aavasa) in a house means: if you will do my bidding, having abandoned your solitary seat, your solitary bed, and the misery of the holy life; and come, having been made happy through the enjoyment of sensual pleasures, reside (ajjhaavasa) in a house. SOme read: "they will be made happy if they live in a house." There will be happiness for them if they reside in a house. That is the meaning. [You will] dwell in the calm of a palace (paasaada-nivaata-vaasinii) means: [you will] dwell (vaasinii) in calm (nivaatesu) palaces (paasaadesu). And there is the reading: "[you will] dwell in sumptuous residences (vimaana-sadisesu). Attendance means: service. verse: 379. "Kaasikasukhumaani dhaaraya, abhiropehi ca maalava.n.naka.m; ka~ncanama.nimuttaka.m bahu.m, vividha.m aabhara.na.m karomi te. 377. Wear garments of fine muslin. Put on garlands and unguents. I shall make many varied adornment[s] of gold, jewels, and pearls for you. txt: Dhaarayaati paridaha, nivaasehi ceva uttariya~nca karohi. Abhiropehiiti ma.n.danavibhuusanavasena vaa sariira.m aaropaya, ala"nkarohiiti attho. Maalava.n.nakanti maala~nceva gandhavilepana~nca. Ka~ncanama.nimuttakanti ka~ncanena ma.nimuttaahi ca yutta.m, suva.n.namayama.nimuttaahi khacitanti attho. Bahunti hatthuupagaadibhedato bahuppakaara.m. Vividhanti kara.navikatiyaa naanaavidha.m. 377. Wear means: put on and dress yourself, and make [use of] your upper garment. Put on (abhiropehi) means: put on, adorn your body with decorations and ornaments. Garlands and unguents means: garlands and perfumed ointment. Of gold, jewels, and pearls (ka~ncana-ma.ni-muttaka.m) means: fixed with gold (ka~ncanens), jewels, and pearls (ma.ni-muttaahi). Inlaid with jewels and pearls and things made of gold (suva.n.na-maya-ma.ni-muttaahi). That is the meaning. Many (bahu.m) means: many kinds (bahu-ppakaara.m) consisting of those going on the arms, etc. Varied (vividha.m) means: of great variety (naanaa-vidha.m) because of the way of being fashioned. == to be continued, connie #79733 From: Ken O Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 6:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) ashkenn2k Hi Han Tun Feelings is processed by the brain is scientific. I give you a scientific medical show that I have seen in Discovery Channel, there was a person poisoned and went into a coma. the person was given injections and the bodily react, jerk violently even though the mind is in coma. Because the injection was very painful, it was shot into the muscles but the mind there is no change in reaction. Sense process could be know and understandable. IMHO, vedana is taste the object and it could be experience in sense process. I give an example, when I was in on Sunday to buy something, I reacted to a pleasant Christmas Charol, I notice my ear sense crave for it, wanting to listen more and more. At other times when I was travelling in public transport, I was attracted by beautiful objects, I could feel my eye sense reacted to it pleasurably, enjoying the object, wanting to see it again and again. Even though I have passed by the pleasurable object, there are still tingling feelings of craving to see it again. That is why we say kamma clinging is so difficult to eradict, its latency of wanting, craving since beginingless time is so imprint in our cittas that the moment we are born, or open our eyes, clinging arise. I forget the term, i think it is kamma upadana. Please correct me if I am wrong about the pali word It is visible right here, right now. Cheers Kind regards Ken O #79734 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 7:21 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 7. nilovg Dear friends, We had Dhamma conversations in different places: apart from the holy sites, we discussed the Dhamma in hotel halls when waiting for the bus, in dining rooms and also in a teashop along the road when the drivers had to rest. I quote from a discussion in a teashop where we sat at a long table, drinking Indian tea. Acharn Sujin said: “We say, everything is dhamma, but are these just words? How can we understand the characteristics of nåma and rúpa if there is no direct awareness of them? We are talking about seeing and hardness, but there may not be direct awareness of a characteristic, just one at a time. There is seeing now, but no awareness of it. When awareness arises we are beginning to understand seeing right now. There is no need to think about it whether there is awareness of this citta that sees or a past moment of citta that sees, that is thinking. There can be awareness of the reality that sees now. However, we should first study and understand what citta, cetasika and rúpa are, so that there are conditions for the arising of awareness. If someone says that one should just be aware from the very beginning without study of realities, without knowing about the conditions for sati, it is wrong. Seeing sees all the time but there is no development of understanding of seeing, we are only thinking about seeing. Seeing appears, and this means that seeing at that moment is the object of satipatthåna, and only in this way right understanding of it can develop. Paññå begins to grow by understanding the characteristics of nåma and rúpa, and the characteristic of sati. The development of satipatthåna should be very natural, if it is not natural one is on the wrong way. Someone is on the wrong way if he clings to an idea of self who can act in a particular way to make sati arise, instead of just understanding reality. Paññå can understand any reality that has arisen because of its own conditions. We cannot know of what object sati will be aware, this is beyond expectation.” By study, listening and considering the Dhamma there can each time be just a little more understanding and we should be grateful for that. It should be enough for the moment, because, as Acharn Sujin often said, paññå works it way. It is accumulated little by little. ******* Nina. #79735 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:04 am Subject: Vism.XVII,212 Vism.XVII,213 Vism.XVII,214 Vism.XVII,215 nichiconn Dear Friends, CSCD: Tattheva sesapa~ncanna.m, vipaaka.m paccayo bhave; catudhaa avipaakampi, evameva pakaasita.m. PPn. xvii, 212. And during life, result conditions The other five in fourfold way; The non-resultant kind can be Explained in the aforesaid way. [564] {PoP p.676} Resultant is a fourfold cause therein Of the remaining five. And it's the same With the description of the non-result. CSCD: Tattheva hi pavatte sesaana.m cakkhaayatanaadiina.m pa~ncanna.m cakkhupasaadaadivatthuka.m itarampi vipaakanaama.m pacchaajaatavippayutta-atthi-avigatapaccayehi catudhaa paccayo hoti. Yathaa ca vipaaka.m, avipaakampi evameva pakaasita.m. Tasmaa kusalaadibhedampi tesa.m catudhaa paccayo hotiiti veditabba.m. Eva.m taava naamameva pa.tisandhiya.m pavatte vaa yassa yassa aayatanassa paccayo hoti, yathaa ca paccayo hoti, tathaa veditabba.m. PPn xvii, 213. Again in the course of an existence, the other resultant mentality, which has as its physical basis the eye sensitivity, etc., is a condition in four ways, as postnascence, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance, conditions, for the rest of the five begining with the eye base. And as the resultant, so also the non-resultant is explained; therefore [the mentality] classed as profitable, etc., should be understood as their condition in four ways. This firstly is how it should be understood what bases mentality alone is a condition for in rebirth-linking and in the course of an existence, and how it is a condition. {PoP p.676-7} [564] For there at procedure (of the five-constituent existence) the resultant name which depends on the physical basis of sensory organism of the eye and so on, or the other {i.e. which depends on the heart-basis} is a cause in four ways through post-existence, dissociation, presence, non-absence of the remaining five senses, that is, the eye and so on. The non-resultant has been described exactly like the resultant. Therefore the different kinds of name such as the moral should be understood as the fourfold cause of the five senses. Thus name should be understood according to whatever cause it is of whichever sense at rebirth or procedure. CSCD: Ruupa.m panettha aaruppe, bhave bhavati paccayo; na ekaayatanassaapi, pa~ncakkhandhabhave pana. Ruupato sandhiya.m vatthu, chadhaa cha.t.thassa paccayo; bhuutaani catudhaa honti, pa~ncanna.m avisesato. PPn xvii, 214. [(b) Materiality as Condition] Not even for a single base In immaterial becoming Is matter a condition here. But in five-aggregate becoming Basis as matter is condition At rebirth in a sixfold way For the sixth base; the primaries Are for the five in fourfold way. {PoP p.677} Herein matter in formless existence Is cause of not a single sense, whereas In existence of the five aggregates The heart-basis as matter is sixfold cause Of sixth at birth. The primaries are cause In four ways of the five in general. CSCD: Ruupato hi pa.tisandhiya.m vatthuruupa.m cha.t.thassa manaayatanassa sahajaata-a~n~nama~n~nanissayavippayutta-atthi-avigatapaccayehi chadhaa paccayo hoti. Cattaari pana bhuutaani avisesato pa.tisandhiya.m pavatte ca ya.m ya.m aayatana.m uppajjati, tassa tassa vasena pa~ncannampi cakkhaayatanaadiina.m sahajaatanissaya-atthi-avigatapaccayehi catudhaa paccayaa honti. PPn. xvii, 215. As to matter, the materiality of the physical [heart] basis is a condition in the rebirth-linking in six ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance, condition, for the sixth, the mind base. But the four primaries are in general, that is to say, in rebirth-linking and in the course of an existence, conditions, in four ways, as conascence, support, presence, and non-disappearance, conditions, for any of the five bases beginning with the eye, whenever they arise. {PoP p.677} For at rebirth physical basic matter is a cause in six ways of the sixth sense, the mind, through co-existence, reciprocity, dependence, dissociation, presence, non-absence. The four primaries are a fourfold cause generaly at rebirth and procedure by way of whatever sense has arisen of the five senses, that is, the eye and so on through co-existence, dependence, presence, non-absence. connnie #79736 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. moellerdieter Hi Sarah, you wrote: (D: there are without many householders whose understanding is not only equal but deeper than those of some monks. For the purpose of questioning and checking the Buddha recommended in particular issues of greed, hate and delusion .. i.e. the latter in respect to anatta . What I meant with a 'weak position ' is our lack of detached livelihood .. .... S: I think any 'detached livelihood' would depend on momentary cittas without defilements. D: unfortunately the mind without defilement is fully realised and lasting by the Arahant only . I was talking about us householders who may starting their way of purification, but being far to come close to the virtue requested from a monk, who - by the rules - lives detached from wordly life and its sensual pleasures as much as possible. Beautiful to read : DN 2 ' The Fruit of the Contemplative Life ' (that of a Bhikkhu). For the friends of Abhidhamma the Panna sutta (A.N.8. 2-translation/ copyright Thanissaro Bhikkhu) may be of interest too .. it isn't so long, so I quote: Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? "There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. This, monks, is the first cause, the first requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. "As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect, he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & question him: 'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He1 reveals what is hidden, makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity in many kinds of perplexing things. This is the second cause, the second requisite condition... "Having heard the Dhamma, he2 achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. This is the third cause, the third requisite condition... "He is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. This is the fourth cause, the fourth requisite condition... "He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that - in their meaning & expression - proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure: those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views. This is the fifth cause, the fifth requisite condition... "He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. This is the sixth cause, the sixth requisite condition... "When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't talk on & on about a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself or he invites another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble silence.3 This is the seventh cause, the seventh requisite condition... "He remains focused on arising & passing away with regard to the five aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This, monks, is the eighth cause, the eighth requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. "When this is the case, his comrades in the holy life hold him in esteem: 'This venerable one lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. Surely, knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This is a factor leading to endearment, to respect, to development, to consonance, to unification.4 "[They say:] 'As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect, he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & question him: 'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He reveals what is hidden, makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity in all kinds of perplexing things. Surely, knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This is a factor leading to endearment, to respect, to development, to consonance, to unification. "[They say:] 'Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. Surely, knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This, too, is a factor leading to endearment, to respect, to development, to consonance, to unification. "[They say:] 'He is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest faults. Surely, knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This, too, is a factor leading to endearment, to respect, to development, to consonance, to unification. "[They say:] 'He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings are admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end, that - in their meaning & expression - proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure: those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views. Surely, knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This, too, is a factor leading to endearment, to respect, to development, to consonance, to unification. "[They say:] 'He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. Surely, knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This, too, is a factor leading to endearment, to respect, to development, to consonance, to unification. "[They say:] 'When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't talk on & on about a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself or he invites another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble silence [the second jhana]. Surely, knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This, too, is a factor leading to endearment, to respect, to development, to consonance, to unification. "[They say:] 'He remains focused on arising & passing away with regard to the five aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' Surely, knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This, too, is a factor leading to endearment, to respect, to development, to consonance, to unification. "These, monks, are the eight causes, the eight requisite conditions that lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired." unquote Sarah: As Han indicated in a post about pre- and post-war Burma, 'mainstream Buddhism' and ideas about 'practise of meditation' change over-time. Modern 'mainstream' meditation courses, retreats and practises along Goenka and Mahasi lines, for example, are very, very new and controversial. D: I guess each generation has different preferences / different schools and so 'mainstream' of different composite. I doubt that Goenka and Mahasi developed something very, very new in the 2500 years of history. What I remember of both is approach to the Maha Satipatthana Sutta in their own way.. but nothing special controversial Sarah: The question is rather, what is bhavana as taught by the Buddha? I think we can find a big difference between this and 'mainstream Buddhism'. D: I think there is no question when we read the suttas ..the difference may occur when we (try to) translate it into practise. Mainstream Buddhism to mean what is assumed to be the view/practise of the majority .. (in respect to the teacher , the Buddha Dhamma) Sarah:If you'd like to discuss more about the meaning of bhavana (mental development or meditation), according to the Buddha's teachings, we can. D: Sarah, I would like to discuss more if you to take the time to read suggested suttas as I try to understand the Abhidhammic point of you .. otherwise I don't see how we manage to 'dance' harmoniously ;-) with Metta Dieter #79737 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 10:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hi Andrew, You are touching on the very problems I am having. Let me give my ideas on some of the issues you have raised. 1. Andrew>: "From time to time, there is debate on DSG about whether Dhamma is scientific (or needs to be)."DC: It all depends on the meaning you assign to Dhamma. If you mean by Dhamma, the Four Noble Truths, the Dependent Origination and the three Characteristics of existence. Then Dhamma is outside the ken of science. The Four Noble Truths are ariyan truths--so beyond mere-worldlings (puthujjana). 2. Andrew>: " So, as you say, animal behaviour can be observed, as can human behaviour, but god cannot be. Doesn't Dhamma tell us, though, that the khandhas can be observed? And is it not valid to observe the khandhas arising and passing away in other "entities" (but limiting the validity of those observations just as an ethologist would limit the validity of his observations due to known/possible flaws in the design of the experiment)?" DC: Khanhas can be observed in oneself. But only ruupa in the case of others (including animals), I think. Of the five khandhas--ruupa, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa"nkhaara, vin~n~naa.na--only the first is observable in others. We cannot observe the last four-they are connected with the mind. In this case, all we do is drawing inferences from their observable behaviour. And this could be right or wrong. There is no certainty. 3. Andrew>: " My difficulty is seeing how talk of anatta as a characteristic of namarupa is any more or less scientific (or "based on knowledge") than those experiments that are claimed to have shown that birds can have a concept of 'a human being'. " DC: Anatta is not a characteristic of naama-ruupa, that puthujjana can see. It can be seen only by the ariyans. For us there is attaa. That is what we experience. Now I'll give you my justification for what I am saying. After the Dhammacakkappavattana, first Konda~n~na, then the four others became stream-enterers. "viraja.m viitamal.m dhammacakkhu.m udapaadi." The dustless, rustless, dhamma-eye (vision) arose. The anattalakkhana sutta was delivered about 2 months after that. I'll just give you the gist of it. The Buddha first says: ruupa is anatta. (These are the most radical words ever made in the whole history of mankind). The Buddha says the same thing about all the khandhas. Then the Buddha asks them: Is the ruupa impermanent or permanent? They answer: it is impermanent. The the Buddha asks them: Is what is impermanent (satisfactory) dukkha or sukha (unsatisfactory)? They agree that it is unsatisfactory. [Then the other khandhas]. Is it proper to consider what is impermanent and unsatisfactory (all ruupas, one's own or external etc...) as: I, me, or mine. (neta.m mama neso hamasmi na meso attaa). They answer again in the negative. Then the Buddha advised them: Therefore you should see that with sammapa~n~naa. This sammapa~n~naa is the pa~n~naa of the ariyan Noble Eightfold Path. Now when they see that "eva.m passa.m sutavaa ariyasaavako ruupasmimpi nibbindati." they lose there attachment (nibbindati: sometimes translated as disgusted) to ruupa etc. That is becomes an arahant. This is why I mentioned that it is silly to talk of anatta. The Buddha uses only a normal rational argument to say that there is nothing other than the five khandhas. An ariya is able to see that there is nothing other than the five khandhas anywhere in the universe. In one go both atta and Brahma are gone. The Buddha is only a Teacher. I agree with you not only anatta, the four noble truths and DO are all interpretations. Comment: It is the inability to understand the DO that split the Sangha into 18 schools and later into many more schools such as Maadhyamika and yogaacaara. 4. Andrew>: " DC, how do you translate and understand the sutta phrase "directly see"? DC: I must preface my answer by saying that I don't have experience, therefore no knowledge of what I say. So it is just sutta references. Usually this is the translation of th expression 'jaanaati passati.' Jaanati is to know and passati is to see. In this kind of seeing, the mind is the object of seeing, according to suttas, confirmed by meditators thoroughou the ages, you see a light. When all the obstructions (niivaranas) are gone and the mind has got concentrated. When the mind has got concentrated like that on a mental object, a sa~n~naa, the meditators does not hear, feel etc. So it seems to be a logical conclusion that the object of perception is then a mental object. This is what is called nimitta. This way you get up to the fourth jhaana. From there you can develop all the abhi~n~naa. That gives you ability to see the past lives etc. That is a general explanation according to the suttas. I haven't spent much time on this matter, because, I haven't yet got to the sammaa-di.tthi stage even properly, according to the suttas. [But I am certain of one thing, all those people who talk about anatta and abhidhamma and so on are only displaying their ignorance--delusion (moha, avijjaa)]However, everything I have said above is according to the suttas. If you wish and are sufficiently interested, I am ready to continue the discussion at a deeper level--what I mean is giving the relevant sutta references and so on. Just one more point: Anatta is na + attaa; that is not anatta. During the time of the Buddha, even today we all think in terms of I, self, soul, and separate the mind and body. That is how we perceive the world. Atta was reference to all these--I soul, self, aatman--the sense of being separate from the environment. The Buddha said that that is only an illusion of the mind created by panchakkhandha--ever changing something. At least we know that the mind changes so fast, we can't even keep track of it. When BT says that anatta is a strategy the underlying assumption is that attaa is there. He has totally forgotten that what makes Buddhism unique is that. Everybody else knows in a general way the everything is impermanent and not satisfactory. That is why people want to go to Sagga--heaven or what ever. Well I think I have bored you enough. Bye for now. Kind regards, DC D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79738 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. nilovg Dear Dieter, yes, I also would like to read your suggested suttas. Which ones? I like your quote today. Asking questions is one of the points that is important: <'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?'> Nina. Op 3-dec-2007, om 18:18 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > Sarah, I would like to discuss more if you to take the time to read > suggested suttas as I try to understand the Abhidhammic point of > you .. otherwise I don't see how we manage to 'dance' harmoniously ;-) #79739 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. nilovg Dear Scott (and Sarah), thank you for your post. Yes, the sober approach of the Commentaries, that is what I appreciate too. Op 3-dec-2007, om 14:18 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I > think that it is possible to know the qualities of jackal awareness as > well. I think these are easy to tell since that is the awareness I > have most of the time. ------- N: There is a big difference. We have the potentials to listen to the Dhamma, we did already, and considered it. There can be a beginning to know a characteristic of a reality as it appears through one of the senses. Even a beginning is good, it brings more understanding and that is the aim. Not more awareness, but more understanding is the aim, don't you think? And, as Kh Sujin will say, more detachment with the understanding. ---- I sent my post about 'no Nina' to Lodewijk and his reactions were not so favorable. He said, of course Sarah will talk about the bitter medicine. I said, no, she mentioned the cold shower ;-)) After dinner and our usual Dhamma reading, I explained more, saying that Kh Sujin had said that paramattha dhammas can't be stressed enough. Also, that there is a danger of inclining to wrong view if we do not accept that there is no Nina, no Lodewijk. I had a little shock when hearing this on tape. Lodewijk does not like the way it is formulated, a name (conventional) and then paramattha dhammas. I said that this is a way of reminding that we have to apply the truth right now. The whole body is nothing, all the rupas fall away at each moment and this helps. Realities are not as they appear to us and the notion about nimitta helps here. When a dhamma appears it has already fallen away. Only the sign of it remains. Lodewijk said he did not like the phrase: the truth is the truth. But Kh Sujin had added that nobody can change the truth the Buddha taught. Nina. #79740 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 11:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: ' yes, I also would like to read your suggested suttas. Which ones? D: here, both in reference to the context discussed before as I mentioned ' Beautiful to read : DN 2 ' The Fruit of the Contemplative Life ' (that of a Bhikkhu).For the friends of Abhidhamma the Panna sutta (A.N.8. 2-translation/ copyright Thanissaro Bhikkhu) may be of interest too . I agree about the importance to discuss the meaning of statements if necessary.. with Metta Dieter #79741 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. nilovg Dear Dieter, I have the transl. by Bhikkhu Bodhi and also the Co he translated. Do you have this? It is very good. Nina. Op 3-dec-2007, om 20:58 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > DN 2 ' The Fruit of the Contemplative Life ' (that of a Bhikkhu) #79742 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 1:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Ken O (Larry, Nina, Sarah), Ken O: Feelings is processed by the brain is scientific. I give you a scientific medical show that I have seen in Discovery Channel, there was a person poisoned and went into a coma. the person was given injections and the bodily react, jerk violently even though the mind is in coma. Because the injection was very painful, it was shot into the muscles but the mind there is no change in reaction. ----- Han: This is what you call *primitive reflex*. The primitive reflexes can be seen in cases that affect brain function, such as Alzheimer’s disease, stroke, and coma. -------------------- Ken O: Sense process could be know and understandable. IMHO, vedana is taste the object and it could be experience in sense process. I give an example, when I was in on Sunday to buy something, I reacted to a pleasant Christmas Charol, I notice my ear sense crave for it, wanting to listen more and more. At other times when I was travelling in public transport, I was attracted by beautiful objects, I could feel my eye sense reacted to it pleasurably, enjoying the object, wanting to see it again and again. Even though I have passed by the pleasurable object, there are still tingling feelings of craving to see it again. That is why we say kamma clinging is so difficult to eradict, its latency of wanting, craving since beginingless time is so imprint in our cittas that the moment we are born, or open our eyes, clinging arise. I forget the term, i think it is kamma upadana. Please correct me if I am wrong about the pali word It is visible right here, right now. Cheers Kind regards Ken O ----- Han: I was responding to Larry on medical point of view, based on medical books. If you are talking about this topic from Buddha Dhamma point of view, Nina, Sarah and Larry are more competent than me to discuss on this issue. Respectfully, Han #79743 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:04 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dacostacharles Hi all, I am starting to get busy again so my posts will slow down. Therefore, to wind down this discussion, I will conclude that as long as the “I” is not an Arhant, it is derived from a Self, a relative entity. Personally, I only possess the Eye of Dharma and from it I understand its Relative Truths. For me to argue there is no-self would be a lie, because I am full of self. The big difference is that my-self is on a path leading to liberation form it-self (i.e., desire). I just like calling a spade, a spade, and not something else. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles DaCosta Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy Dear DM, Good digging. The only problem with it that I can fine is the following statements: “As might be imagined, the first group accused the second group of denying the concept of anatta, or not-self; whereas the second group accused the first of being unable to account for the truths that they said their concept of person explained. Both groups, however, found that their positions entangled them in philosophical difficulties that have never been successfully resolved.” <...> #79744 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 4:14 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) lbidd2 Hi Han, Thank you very much for this taste of medical knowledge, but I don't think I am any closer to answering my question: am I right in thinking all pleasant and unpleasant feeling (including both bodily and mental feeling) _seems_ to arise in the body, and if so, why? Doctors usually ask, "where does it hurt". Does it make sense to ask, "where do you feel happy?" or "where do you feel sad?" Larry #79745 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 4:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) To Larry hantun1 Dear Larry, In my last post addressed to you, I had remarked as follows: Han: From the above medical point of view, it is clear that the feelings are *processed* by the brain, but I do not know whether it can be said that the feelings are *located* in the brain. Now, on second thought, I would like to modify my remarks as follows: Han: From the above medical point of view, it is clear that the *centers* responsible for feelings are located in the brain, but I don’t think the feelings themselves are located in the brain or anywhere else in the body. Respectfully, Han #79746 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 4:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "When there is awareness and understanding of hardness, there is only that ruupa in the world, no other reality," Larry: I agree that is one way of looking at it. I think I would say when there is awareness of hardness there is no other awareness, and not be concerned with the depth and breadth of reality. In a way we can say the present moment is the only reality, but in another way that isn't exactly true. Larry #79747 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Larry, My last post crossed with your last post. In my last post I had modified my remarks by saying that the *centers* responsible for feelings are located in the brain, but I don’t think the feelings themselves are located in the brain or anywhere else in the body. There are physical pain and mental pain. Feeling happy or feeling sad are mental phenomena. So you cannot locate them in the body. But “where does it hurt?” is asking about the physical pain. In other words, the doctor is asking where does the physical pain originate? For example, pain in the abdomen. The pain originates from some internal organs within the abdomen, but the pain itself is registered by the center responsible for pain which is located in the brain. As regards your specific question: “am I right in thinking all pleasant and unpleasant feeling (including both bodily and mental feeling) _seems_ to arise in the body, and if so, why?” I would say that bodily feelings arise or originate in the body, but the mental feelings arise in the brain itself in the centers which are concerned with emotion (in temporal lobe, to be exact). Here again, it is the *center* which is located in the brain, but not the feelings themselves. Well, this is just my personal opinion. Respectfully, Han --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Hi Han, > > Thank you very much for this taste of medical > knowledge, but I don't > think I am any closer to answering my question: am I > right in thinking > all pleasant and unpleasant feeling (including both > bodily and mental > feeling) _seems_ to arise in the body, and if so, > why? Doctors usually > ask, "where does it hurt". Does it make sense to > ask, "where do you feel > happy?" or "where do you feel sad?" > > Larry > > #79748 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 4:54 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dcwijeratna Hi, Charles Great, that is the truth. Only arhants have no-self. Those who talk of anatta while being a puthujjana, are deluded. Regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79749 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 5:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > > Personally, I only possess the Eye of Dharma and from it I understand its > Relative Truths. ++++++++++++ Dear Charles Could you explain about the Eye of Dhamma. Robert #79750 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 5:59 pm Subject: Re: Not-self strategy sukinderpal Hi DC (and Charles), =========== DC: Great, that is the truth. Only arhants have no-self. Those who talk of anatta while being a puthujjana, are deluded. Sukin: So you a putthujana, now know an Arahat's mind and can even "talk" about Anatta in relation to such a mind, is this not then being *doubly* deluded? Furthermore, with all your talk about literal interpretation of words, should I take, "Only arhants have no-self" to mean literally, that `there is such a being who possesses such a thing as "no-self"'? And if this is in fact only a slip and what you meant was that "only an Arahat knows Anatta", are you saying that a Sotapanna, Sakadagami and Anagami does not know this? Please clarify, and if you are interested, we can pursue the matter of "knowledge and communication" further. Thanks in advance. Metta, Sukin #79751 From: LBIDD@... Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 7:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) lbidd2 Hi Han, Thank you very much for your diagnosis. I think I will have to look more closely at emotional feeling to see what is going on. I do feel feelings in my body when I am happy or sad, angry or loving. But maybe these feelings are auxiliary to subtle "disembodied" feelings. Thanks for all your help. Larry #79752 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 2:28 pm Subject: To Bahuna * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! <...> Taken from AccessToInsight.org1 Translated from Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu TO BAHUNA Anguttara Nikâya 10.81 - Bahuna Sutta2 I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Campa, on the shore of Gaggara Lake. Then Ven. Bahuna went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, freed, dissociated, & released from how many things does the Tathagata (here again referring to the Lord Buddha - Ed) dwell with unrestricted awareness?" "Freed, dissociated, & released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, & released from form3 (the grosser aspect of any being commonly referred to as the 'body' composed of the four great elements, earth, water, fire, air. - Ed), the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling3 (feeling is defined as being pleasant, unpleasant and neither pleasant nor unpleasant)... Freed, dissociated, & released from perception3... Freed, dissociated, & released from fabrications3 (mental fabrications, thought formations - Ed)... Freed, dissociated, & released from consciousness3... Freed, dissociated, & released from birth4... Freed, dissociated, & released from aging4... Freed, dissociated, & released from death4... Freed, dissociated, & released from stress4... Freed, dissociated, & released from defilement (defilements of the mind), the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. "Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unrestricted awareness." Notes 1. More suttas from AcessToInsight.org can be found here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html 2. This sutta can be found in full here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.081.than.html 3. Refers to the five aggregates, see more here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#khandha 4. As the Tathagata - Lord Buddha is not subject to re-birth. <....> #79753 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 12:50 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. ksheri3 Hi DC, I was really "into" your discussion here with Andrew up to the point that is marked as ********* --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > You are touching on the very problems I am having. Let me give my ideas on some of the issues you have raised. > 1. Andrew>: "From time to time, there is debate on DSG about whether Dhamma is scientific (or needs to be)."DC: It all depends on the meaning you assign to Dhamma. If you mean by Dhamma, the Four Noble Truths, the Dependent Origination and the three Characteristics of existence. Then Dhamma is outside the ken of science. The Four Noble Truths are ariyan truths--so beyond mere-worldlings (puthujjana). > > 2. Andrew>: " > So, as you say, animal behaviour can be observed, as can human > > behaviour, but god cannot be. Doesn't Dhamma tell us, though, that > > the khandhas can be observed? And is it not valid to observe the > > khandhas arising and passing away in other "entities" (but limiting > > the validity of those observations just as an ethologist would limit > > the validity of his observations due to known/possible flaws in the > > design of the experiment)?" > DC: Khanhas can be observed in oneself. But only ruupa in the case of others (including animals), I think. Of the five khandhas--ruupa, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa"nkhaara, vin~n~naa.na--only the first is observable in others. We cannot observe the last four-they are connected with the mind. In this case, all we do is drawing inferences from their observable behaviour. And this could be right or wrong. There is no certainty. > > 3. Andrew>: " > My difficulty is seeing how talk of anatta as a characteristic of > > namarupa is any more or less scientific (or "based on knowledge") > > than those experiments that are claimed to have shown that birds can > > have a concept of 'a human being'. " ********** > DC: Anatta is not a characteristic of naama-ruupa, that puthujjana can see. It can be seen only by the ariyans. For us there is attaa. colette: pardon me, did somebody just call for the bottle with the gennii in it or did they call for the bottle that they want to put a gennii in? You have said "...can be seen only by..." Hold it right there. <....> For us there is Puthajjana, there is naama-rupa, there is anatta, etc. I can't find it in myself to cow-tow to an obsolete ideal such as the Theravadans in their quest to maintain a Caste System and a control of all wealth while excluding poverty from their ranks and forcing it upon other sentient beings. We can certainly go on an offensive to attack the validity of a Theravadan ideal HOWEVER, that is outside the actual goal I intended on achieving here. So let's view it as water flowing beneath the bridge. ----------------------------------------------- That is what we experience. Now I'll give you my justification for what I am saying. After the Dhammacakkappavattana, first Konda~n~na, then the four others became stream-enterers. "viraja.m viitamal.m dhammacakkhu.m udapaadi." The dustless, rustless, dhamma-eye (vision) arose. The anattalakkhana sutta was delivered about 2 months after that. I'll just give you the gist of it. The Buddha first says: ruupa is anatta. (These are the most radical words ever made in the whole history of mankind). The Buddha says the same thing about all the khandhas. Then the Buddha asks them: Is the ruupa impermanent or permanent? They answer: it is impermanent. The the Buddha asks them: Is what is impermanent (satisfactory) dukkha or sukha (unsatisfactory)? colette: that's a Freudian slip huh? all of your fingers conspired against you to print that, didn't they? Dukka = Satisfactory Sukha = Unsatisfactory. Hmmmmmmmmm, something's amis here. ------------------------------------------------ I believe that I should stop my examination of the rest of this for personal reasons. thanx for the interaction. toodles, colette They agree that it is unsatisfactory. <....> #79754 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 8:41 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3rd noble truth jonoabb Hi Phil Phil wrote: > > Hi anna and all > > Welcome to the group. Your comment on rebirth reminded me of a > sutta I'd been trying to find again. The point of the sutta is that > if the principle of kamma is true, if there is rebirth, we will > benefit from having led a moral life. And if it isn't true, we will > still benefit by having led a moral life. Something like that, > though I don't know how a sutta could suggest that the principle of > kamma isn't true... > > ...can anyone help identify this sutta? Probably AN. Thanks in > advance. > AN III, 65 (Kaalaamas), the 4 'assurances' (see at p. 67 of NDB) Jon #79755 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" ksheri3 Good Morning Charles, Have you heard the old Cheech & Chong album, cd nowadays, called "Sleeping Beauty"? Yea, I sit at a table very reminiscent of the table you speak of and that table was spoken of in the story of "Sleeping Beauty" by Cheeck & Chong. <...> The second you said "original self" I immediately pictured that you were conversing with a "creationist" from Western manufacturing facilities. then you gave us that lovely story about the seeting arangements for a dinner party. LOLOL. I can picture, in my mind's eye, many mishaps in that disfunctional seating arangement. I have to inquire: if you or I or anybody speaks of "Essence" THEN are we speaking in terms of Ultimate Reality and Ultimate Truths? Well, I've gotta get back to cleaning my plate since it is Standard Operating Procedure for that dinner party you were speaking of to empty their plates upon my plate and then hold me responsible for wasting food and being the glutton and .... <...> toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Dear Ken O > > > > U got me laughing again! > > > > I am so glad to here that "U" r no longer easily provoked by emails; and > don't worry, "I" am sure that soon you will n't be easily provoked in > personal life either! <...> #79756 From: "colette" Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 9:05 am Subject: Right here and Right now ksheri3 Hi Ken O, Good show! You said things I could not say, for some reason. Yep, that first second is such an important experience i.e. "first impressions are important" and "you can only make a first impression once". For instance, after my first Near-Death Experience I felt the "constant pressure" for me to conform as if I was a lump of Playdo for children to mold into different objects. My entire experience of this pressure and force that was thrust upon me as if my life depended upon my ability to conform to the "status quo" just did nothing but repulse me away, a sense of aversion toward the hideous behavior of that certain grouping of people. They, themselves, as members of that grouping of people, exhibited the obvious stupidity of seeking admission to that group since they all conformed to the outline of THE HUNGRY GHOSTS. I mean this in the sense that once they have accepted and admitted a prospective member to their ranks they began a feeding frenzy as if Pirana fish from South America or a feeding frenzy akin to the shark family of fish. The objective was to pick the bones clean of any flesh thus removing the individuality of the aspirant and the addiction of the aspirant to the mainframe as if they had removed their brain and exchanged it for a LAN/WAN card. The members of the group became nothing more than mindless CRTs (computer relay terminals) that had no brain or thought that was not issued to them from a mainframe computer i.e. blank, vacuous, vacant, empty, valueless, etc. Some of you may wish to seize upon my use of the word "empty" and associate it with Shunya and/or Shunyata which is such a childish perversion but is a means of validating an individual's status as a human being so as to deny the label of a CRT. It's actually a Denial phase of the Addictive process. ------------------------------------------- > Feelings is processed by the brain is scientific. I give you a > scientific medical show that I have seen in Discovery Channel, there > was a person poisoned and went into a coma. the person was given > injections and the bodily react, jerk violently even though the mind > is in coma. Because the injection was very painful, it was shot into > the muscles but the mind there is no change in reaction. > colette: EXCELLENT PHRASEOLOGY and the use of my objectivity in similarities between two seperate concepts. Thank you for including me. You clearly show the seperate constitutions of the body between the physical muscular presence and the hypothetical mind presence and how they can actually be seperate while remaining in the same "whole". Actually though, to check if there is no change in the reaction of the mind you'd need to be hooked up to an EEG so that your brain waves could have been monitored. Yet your analogy showed that the function of the "coma" was a benefit at a time when you might have experienced severe pain. When I was very young I cut my leg just above the kneed cap, the cut being so clean that no blood spilled and I could see EVERYTHING in my leg, the bone(s), muscles, flesh, etc, it was a gaping hole, yet an ambulance was not called my dad chose to drive me to the hospital. While on the way the shock, trauma, wore off and I CERTAINLY EXPERIENCED THE SENSATIONS OF HAVING FLESH BONE AND MUSCLES EXPOSED TO OXYGEN. Since then my body has become an example of medical sciences ability to put human flesh back together. There are many scars over most of my flesh. The newest scar goes from ear to ear across the top of my head where the surgeons had to re- attach my face to my head and re-construct my eye socket, my nose, ect, ect. That was in something like 1997. I have experienced physical pain quite regularly, especially when the ultra- conservatives take power and they are finally given the pleasure of torturing another person openly and freely without recourse or redress of wrongs. <...> -------------------------------------------- > Sense process could be know and understandable. colette: I AGREE COMPLETELY! When I was in the waiting area of the Emergency Room after the beating I took in 1997 I was cognizing that my eyes had swollen shut therefore I could not see, eye consciousness, YET my other senses such as ear consciousness and tactile consciousness were elevated as if maintaining a certain level of awareness through the loss of my eye consciousness. I was laying there verbalizing the sensations as they were occuring to me even if others around me were thinking that I was a crazy person. If I knew then what I know now, such as Abhidharma techniques, that experience would probably have been much deeper. And that experience can be verified, I believe since Susan York-Hatten and Doug Hatten, I believe now live in South Korea and it was Susan that was kind enough to pick me up in the E.R. and brought me back to their place where their care will always be appreciated. ------------------------------------ IMHO, vedana is > taste the object and it could be experience in sense process. I > give an example, when I was in on Sunday to buy something, I reacted > to a pleasant Christmas Charol, I notice my ear sense crave for it, > wanting to listen more and more. At other times when I was > travelling in public transport, I was attracted by beautiful objects, > I could feel my eye sense reacted to it pleasurably, enjoying the > object, wanting to see it again and again. Even though I have passed > by the pleasurable object, there are still > tingling feelings of craving to see it again. > colette: since you've given me enough proof of your analogies working it will take some time for me to process this analogy or these two analogies, yet I am pre-disposed to believing your usage so that may play a factor. --------------------------------------- > That is why we say kamma clinging is so difficult to eradict, its > latency of wanting, colette: I gotcha here through your usage of the word "latency", YES, the residue of the first or last time something was experienced still exists and permeates the individual. It's kindof like Red Dye #2, or any chemical additive to manufacture something and give it a shelf- life. ------------------------------------ craving since beginingless time is so imprint in > our cittas that the moment we are born, or open our eyes, clinging > arise. colette: Yea, I gotcha, I'm with ya. The suffering of that first experience and longing for the comfort and security of, what was, death is a traumatic experience i.e. "being born is suffering" and then having that longing and emptiness filled with those initial sensations of being shown what others have that you do not have is an amazing motivational tool. -------------------------------------------- I forget the term, i think it is kamma upadana. Please > correct me if I am wrong about the pali word > > It is visible right here, right now. Cheers > colette: I certainly agree! Your kindness and generosity is overwhelming. Thank you for including me in your exhibition. toodles, colette #79757 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 3, 2007 10:56 pm Subject: Perfections Corner: Mahaa Sutasoma Jaataka hantun1 Dear Connie, Sarah, Nina and others, In the chapter on the Perfections of Truthfulness, we have read two jaatakas. In Haarita Jaataka (no. 431) the recluse Haarita told the truth to the King when he was asked whether he had an affair with the Queen. In Kanhadiipaayana Jaataka (no. 444) a youth bitten by the snake was saved by Kanhadiipaayana who made an asserveration of truth by saying that he fared the Brahma-faring just for seven days with a mind of faith, desiring merit, and for more than fifty years he fared unwillingly. Now, I will present a jaataka where the Bodhisatta acted according to what he had said, i.e., he kept his promise even risking his own life. This is Mahaa Sutasoma Jaataka (no. 537). -------------------- Once, King Mahaa Sutasoma was captured by Porisaada, the man-eater, who hauled him onto his shoulder, and took him off to his hide-out in the nearby jungle. On the way, Porisaada asked Mahaa Sutasoma, ‘Is there nothing left behind that you will miss? Is there nothing that you long for?’ Mahaa Sutasoma replied, ‘There is nothing I will miss for I live without attachment, but there is one thing I do regret. This morning I was going to pay respect to my priest and observe the Uposatha precepts. I promised him I would see him today, but now I shall not be able to, so I regret having to break my promise to him. I will not be able to listen to the Dhamma from my venerable teacher, that is all. If you would kindly let me return to fulfil my promise, after listening to his teaching, I will return to you here.’ Porisäda was amazed by the king’s reply, but said, ‘If I let you go you will never come back again. No one will return to face certain death when they have managed to escape. If you do come back, it will be with an army to capture me.’ Mahaa Sutasoma replied, ‘In any case, death is certain. I swear that I will return here alone or die by my own sword.’ At this last remark Porisaada finally believed Mahaa Sutasoma. He was, after all, a king from birth and no king ever took such a fearful vow as to die by his own sword. Also, he had known Mahaa Sutasoma for many years, and never in all that time had Mahaa Sutasoma told any lie or broken any promise to anyone. He was famous throughout India for his religious piety and honesty. So he stopped and put down King Sutasoma, saying to him, 'Very well, then, you may go to pay respect to your teacher, but afterwards you must come at once to me here, and you must come alone.' Mahaa Sutasoma gave his solemn promise, thanked Porisaada, and returned happily to the palace, glad that he would now be able to fulfil his promise to the priest. On his return, he related all that had happened and went as he had planned to observe the Uposatha and listen to the Dhamma. The priest recited four verses, and Mahaa Sutasoma offered one thousand pieces of gold for each verse to show his gratitude. Mahaa Sutasoma explained to his family and companions that all loved ones must separate one day. Now the time had come for him to leave them. He had given his solemn promise and had no choice but to go. They begged him to take some soldiers with him, but he refused, saying that he had promised to return alone, so alone he would go. In spite of their pleas, he left them with tears in their eyes and set off to the jungle where Porisaada was awaiting his return. Back in the jungle, Porisaada saw Mahaa Sutasoma coming and was very surprised to see his calm appearance. He was voluntarily coming back to face certain death yet he seemed not the least afraid. Porisaada thought, 'I wonder what Dhamma he has heard from his teacher that has made him so fearless. I wish I could be as fearless as that.' So he asked him politely, 'Mahaa Sutasoma, what did your priest teach you, I would like to know the teaching that you were so eager to hear.' Realising that Porisaada was ready to be taught a lesson Mahaa Sutasoma retorted, 'What is the use of giving such a noble teaching to a hardhearted ruffian like you, you would have no use for it.' This reply made Porisaada all the more curious to know what the priest had taught Mahaa Sutasoma. He begged him, 'Please tell me, I will give you anything, if you do.' Mahaa Sutasoma then scolded him, 'What is the use of a gift from a mean fellow like you, you would promise anything, but you would give nothing.' Porisaada was deeply ashamed at being scolded like this. He swore an oath to die by his own sword if he did not fulfil his promise. He said that he would give whatever Mahaa Sutasoma asked for, even though it cost him his own life. Mahaa Sutasoma saw that Porisaada was now humble and ready to understand the Dhamma so he said, 'Well then, take a low seat and listen respectfully, I will tell you the Dhamma taught by my priest.' This is what my priest taught: (1) 'To associate with the wise, even only on one occasion is of great advantage; to associate with the foolish even on many occasions is of no benefit.' (2) 'One should associate with the wise and listen to their teaching; one who does will become noble-minded, no harm comes from learning the teaching of the wise.' (3) 'The splendid royal chariots, once so beautiful, grow old and decay, but the teaching of the wise is ageless and never changes, this is what the wise talk about among themselves.' (4) 'The sky is very far from the earth, and the earth is very far from the heavens, but farther apart than these are the teaching of the wise and the teaching of the foolish.' Porisaada praised the Dhamma taught by Mahaa Sutasoma and asked him to name four gifts, one for each verse. Mahaa Sutasoma replied, 'I wish to see you alive and well for a hundred years as my dear friend.' This reply was cleverly judged by Mahaa Sutasoma to put Porisaada at ease. He knew that if he just asked Porisaada to spare his life, Porisaada might still be afraid of what he might do if he agreed to his request. However, because he replied in this way, Porisaada realised that he bore him no grudge and that no harm would come to him if he spared Mahaa Sutasoma’s life. Secondly, Mahaa Sutasoma continued, 'Set free the one hundred kings [whom Porisaada had captured earlier] and do them no harm.' Porisaada readily agreed to this since he was no longer afraid of these other kings now that Mashaa Sutasoma would be his powerful friend and ally. Thirdly, 'Let them return safely to their own kingdoms.' At once, Porisaada untied the kings and let them go wherever they wished. Lastly, continued Mahaa Sutasoma, 'Give up eating human flesh and return to your kingdom.' [Porisaada was a king himself before he gave up his kingship to go to the forest and to kill humans and eat them.] At this, Porisaada was very hesitant. He had promised to give whatever Mahaa Sutasoma asked, but had not thought he would ask for this. He loved meat so much, especially human meat, that he had given up his palace and killed so many people mercilessly. How could he possibly live without eating human meat? Yet he had given his solemn promise, and so he had to agree to Mahaa Sutasoma's request. So Porisaada promised to give it up and to be Mahaa Sutasoma's loyal friend until death separated them. He returned to his kingdom, where the wise general who was ruling in his place agreed to reappoint the king if he would live by the five precepts and remain good friends with Mahaa Sutasoma. King Mahaa Sutasoma returned to his kingdom, much to the delight of his family and subjects. --------------------------- Han: This Jaataka shows how Mahaa Sutasoma and Porisaada kept their promises they had given. Mahaa Sutasoma had kept his promise even risking his own life. For this ‘Truthfulness’, there was a happy ending to the story. Metta, Han #79758 From: "Andrew" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:27 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. corvus121 Hi DC Thank you for a very stimulating post. Not boring at all! I am very interested in seeing your point of view on this. It is fresh to DSG. At least, I cannot recall these matters being raised by anyone else before. I have a few more comments and questions which I will snip and interpose below. No need to respond to those that don't interest you or aren't relevant. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > DC: Khanhas can be observed in oneself. But only ruupa in the case of others (including animals), I think. Of the five khandhas--ruupa, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa"nkhaara, vin~n~naa.na--only the first is observable in others. We cannot observe the last four-they are connected with the mind. In this case, all we do is drawing inferences from their observable behaviour. And this could be right or wrong. There is no certainty. AT: Agreed, there is no certainty but the possibility (and in some cases maybe even probability) of being right exists. As I understand the theory of Abhidhamma, nama and rupa are intertwined/interdependent in our plane of existence. And it is nama that experiences, not rupa. And nama *creates* rupa. In ethology, one way of making inferences about animals' subjective experiences is physiology e.g. heart rate and hormone levels. These can be taken to indicate a state of stress/anxiety or sexual urge etc. It is the experience (e.g. seeing an approaching predator) that produces a physiological response (e.g. increased heart rate). I don't see the Abhidhamma theorising about experience A can condition the arising of experience B as something of a totally different category to ethologists drawing inferences from observable behaviour. It has validity even though we can't be certain. > DC: Anatta is not a characteristic of naama-ruupa, that puthujjana can see. It can be seen only by the ariyans. For us there is attaa. That is what we experience. AT: Yes, that is what I experience too (as far as I know what I experience). I do not experience germs but I know that people with microscopes can experience them and know about them. And my knowing about *that* affects my behaviour in the world. So, is there not benefit for those who do not experience to pay heed to the behaviour of those who do? That is why the Buddha taught, is it not? DC: ... This is why I mentioned that it is silly to talk of anatta. The Buddha uses only a normal rational argument to say that there is nothing other than the five khandhas. An ariya is able to see that there is nothing other than the five khandhas anywhere in the universe. In one go both atta and Brahma are gone. The Buddha is only a Teacher. I agree with you not only anatta, the four noble truths and DO are all interpretations. AT: DC, when you say "interpretations", are you referring to the limitations of language? An ariya can see the khandhas, but as soon as he opens his mouth to describe them, there is no seeing, only interpreting or modelling with concepts. Does anyone on DSG dispute that? I think it is a point of general agreement, but if somebody disagrees, I would love them to jump in now and say why. DC: ... [But I am certain of one thing, all those people who talk about anatta and abhidhamma and so on are only displaying their ignorance--delusion (moha, avijjaa)] AT: One sutta reference that is often raised to argue that lay people should consider deep teachings like anatta is in the Samyutta Nikaya (Mahavagga) when the Buddha addresses Dhammadinna and 500 merchants thus: "Therefore, you should train yourselves thus: 'From time to time we will enter and dwell upon those discourses spoken by the Tathagata that are deep, deep in meaning, supramundane, dealing with emptiness.'" DC, do you have a different interpretation of the above? Why would the Buddha say that to lay people? It *seems* to contradict your own point of view, does it not? Thanks again for your discussion. Best wishes Andrew #79759 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 3:14 am Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et philofillet Hi Nina (ps to deiter and howard, pps to matt and robert k) > ------ > N: Mindfulness of the body, yes, this means: of rupas. But if there > never is mindfulness of naama we would not know what is naama, what > is ruupa. Nina, you don't really believe that an emphasis on mindfulness of the body means no mindfulness of nama, do you? It's just the primary object, whatever spins off that spins off that. Ven. BB puts it well, I think: "The great stress laid on contemplation of the body derives from the fact taht meditative comprehension of the impermanent, painful and selfless nature of bodily proceseses forms the indispensable basis for a corresponding comprehension of mental processes, and it is only the comprehension of both that will lead to liberating insight and the noble path." Come to think of it, that is an oversimplification, I know. But why would you think that the emphasis on mindfulness of the body in so many suttas means no mindfulness of nama? >There should be no limitayion, it just depends what appears > because of its own conditions. Then we learn that we cannot create > any nama or rupa. Whatever appears is merely dhamma, a conditioned > reality. Well, again and again the Buddha places an emphasis on mindfulness of the body. You don't see it that way, that's fine - I do. You may be right. > Ph: It has to be developed intentionally. Well, it can't be > *developed* intentionally, that happens, or it doesn't. But one has > to start the ball rolling with diligent pursuit of a pre-determined > meditation object. > ------ > N: How could concentration on a kasina help to know seeing or hearing? Ph: I'm not interested in kasinas, personally. I only mentionned the instructions for developing them as a concentration object because they are detailed and some people doubt that there are detailed meditation instructions in the ancient texts. I would *really* like to get out of this thread. I am going to stop talking about meditation, and just do it, or not. Either way is fine, as long as we keep the precepts and have relatively tidy moral lives. Meditation is not for everyone, there are not always conditions for it, as the impediments post (thank you) you posted the other day said. (Really, much better ground for questioning meditation in those impediments than in the non-textually supported criticisms you and others make, self-view involved, non-value of jhanas etc. you are on very shaky ground there!) BTW, I hope he won't mind my telling, but I am having a very helpful offline talk with Tep about a method we are both interested in. I'm going to keep meditation discussion off list, I think. Metta, Phil p.s Dieter and Howard, thanks for telling me about what happened to your off-list Abhidhamma discussion. No problem, not time anyways. I am definitely interested in Abhidhamma, but probably won't study it in detail again until I have a bit more luxury of time. pps matt and robert k, thanks again for your great posts that are continuing to give me lots to think about. i will be back to you, but don't know when. cheers! #79760 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 3:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: 3rd noble truth philofillet HI DC and Jon and Anna Thanks very much for your lead on the sutta I was looking for. I hope Anna will have a look too. So many people get tied up in knots about whether there could possibly be rebirth or not when they first hear about Buddhism, and they never get further. Telling them about the teaching in these suttas would help them see get by that, maybe. metta, phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Dear Phil > > Read the famous kaalaana sutta and the apannaka sutta of MN. > #79761 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 3:25 am Subject: It *is* burning with greed, hatred and delusion, sarah dear!!!! philofillet Hi Sarah haha. I like that title. just a quick note re our discussion on the Burning sutta the other day. You doubted that it refers to "burning with greed, hatred and delusion", but it does. You may be thinking of a shorter version of the sutta, in SN 22. But the SN 35 version, the Buddha's 3rd discourse, definitely focuses on the akusala hetu (roots of evil) rather than on the characteristics of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness that you mentionned. But lord knows how you folks read it! :) Metta, Phil #79762 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 4:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] It *is* burning with greed, hatred and delusion, sarah dear!!!! sarahprocter... Hi Phil, --- Phil wrote: > just a quick note re our discussion on the Burning sutta the other > day. You doubted that it refers to "burning with greed, hatred and > delusion", but it does. ... S: No, I never doubted the 'all' were burning with greed, hatred and delusion, i.e. the 3 fires we often read about. You had written: >P: There > was a pleasant metta-ish feeling all day because of reflection on > all of us, the all, all burning with greed, hatred and delusion. ... I responed: S: >I thought it was the 12 ayatanas, the all, that were blazing...blazing on account of their impermanence. All truly unsatisfactory and certainly not worth clinging to.< .... S: I was just pointing out that it's not 'us' that is ablaze but the various dhammas, the ayatanas which are taken for us. I wasn't questioning the 'burning with greed, hatred and delusion' at all as clearly stated in so many suttas. My other comment was cryptic/confusing/misleading I agree. I was meaning to suggest that the reason the fires burn on and on, consuming all the fuel of the 'all' and are so very difficult to extinguish is on account of not seeing their impermanence and unsatisfactoriness of the 'all'. When these characteristics are clearly known, there is less and less fuel for the fires. "Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated...." Hope that clarifies. Thx for raising the point. Metta, Sarah ===== #79763 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 4:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khun Sujin's explanations. jonoabb Hi Robert Robert wrote: > Jon: > But no-one is suggesting > that anything she (or anyone) says should be accepted without being > tested against the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries. > > Robert: > Would it be better to say that it should be tested not only against > the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries, but also against reality? > This is an interesting question. The answer is not as straightforward as we might at first suppose. To my reading of the suttas, explanations of the teachings (and this would include instructions in 'practice') given by another should be tested against the teachings themselves as a first step. Only if it stands up as being wholly consistent with what the Buddha taught, is it to be accepted as a correct explanation of the teachings. The problem with testing explanations or instruction given by another against reality is that our perception of reality is deeply flawed, despite our having been students of the teachings for such a long time (not only in this life but presumably in other lifetimes too). So it could easily end up a case of wrong view confirming wrong practice! Let me give an example. We often hear it said that only by trying a particular 'practice' for ourselves can its benefits be appreciated. Now no doubt those advocating the practice have experienced results that *seem* to correlate with descriptions found in the texts. But if it's not a practice that is mentioned in the texts then the results cannot be the ones described in the texts, despite the apparent 'confirmation' from the texts. I think you'd agree with this. In the suttas the emphasis is clearly on hearing, discussing, considering, reflecting and absorbing the teachings as a condition for better direct understanding. See for example the Panna Sutta (AN 8.2) quoted by Dieter just a short time ago setting out 8 requisite conditions for acquiring discernment (i.e., panna, I presume). I post a truncated version below. To my understanding, it is the teachings themselves that are to be tested against our experience of reality. Naturally, there will be discrepancies, because our experience of reality is tainted by ignorance an wrong view. However, if we are fortunate there will be sufficient in the teachings that can be immediately verified that we can have confidence not to reject those parts that seem to contradict our experience of reality. Jon Panna sutta (A.N.8. 2-translation/ copyright Thanissaro Bhikkhu): *********************************** Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? 1. There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. ... 2. As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life ... he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & question him: 'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' ... 3. Having heard the Dhamma, he achieves a twofold seclusion: seclusion in body & seclusion in mind. ... 4. He is virtuous. ... 5. He has heard much, has retained what he has heard, has stored what he has heard. Whatever teachings ... that - in their meaning & expression - proclaim the holy life that is entirely complete & pure: those he has listened to often, retained, discussed, accumulated, examined with his mind, & well-penetrated in terms of his views. ... 6. He keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and for taking on skillful mental qualities. ... 7. When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't talk on & on about a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself or he invites another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble silence. ... 8. He remains focused on arising & passing away with regard to the five aggregates ... These, monks, are the eight causes, the eight requisite conditions that lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. *********************************** #79764 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 4:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) jonoabb Hi Alex You probably thought I had forgotten this message of yours, but no such luck! I was just waiting until you finished discussing much the same topic in another thread. Alex wrote: > Hi Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > >> What I'm disagreeing with is the characterisation of the teaching >> on not-self as being a "tool" of some kind, which I think >> suggests that it is taught for strategic purposes rather than >> because if is part of the truth of the way things really are. >> > > Anatta as a strategy does not mean that there is really Atta. > I think you may be confusing your thread with me and your other thread. There has been no suggestion in this thread that the passage implies there is really atta (so please don't keep replying to me as though there has been!!). The only issue under discussion here is whether the characterisation of the teaching on anatta as being a "tool" is a correct one. > What it means is that Anatta HAS TO BE PUT INTO ACTION!!! > We all agree that anatta is not something that is 'in the book'. But I would say that anatta, as a characteristic of the khandhas, etc, is something to be *realised*, and that such realisation occurs by virtue of the development of insight (panna). I don't read the texts as talking about "putting anatta into action". Would you mind saying a word or two about what you mean by this. > Simply talking about "I don't exist" won't save one from suffering. Again you may be confusing this thread with your other one. I have already explained that I am not arguing for a "there is no self" interpretation . So let's keep the discussion to points on which we disagree ;-)) > But using Anatta strategy to remove all greed/anger/delusion and make > suffering cease is what it is about. To my understanding, it is insight (panna) that effects the removal of lobha, dosa and moha. One of the aspects of this insight knowledge is the understanding of the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. The idea of anatta being "used" as a "strategy" in this respect is not one I've come across in the texts. Please say a few words about this, as you see it. > ... > "And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject > to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?" > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.than.html > > That line is mentioned many dozens or moretimes in the Suttas. Yes, true. These questions were put by the Buddha to his listeners, mainly those whose panna was sufficiently developed to be able to directly realise the truth of what was being taught (and attain enlightenment). But I don't think the Buddha specified these question as something to be asked to oneself in relation to the presently occurring experience (i.e., as a form of practice). I'd be interested to know what you see as the significance of this passage, which you've quoted a number of times now. Jon #79765 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 5:08 am Subject: Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply: N: "There is a big difference. We have the potentials to listen to the Dhamma, we did already, and considered it. There can be a beginning to know a characteristic of a reality as it appears through one of the senses. Even a beginning is good, it brings more understanding and that is the aim. Not more awareness, but more understanding is the aim, don't you think? And, as Kh Sujin will say, more detachment with the understanding." Scott: Yes, I do think that more understanding is the only thing that moves it all forward. It is very interesting to read on the list and see how all the different potentials, as you put it, come into play and lead to all the different takes on Dhamma. I like how we all consider Dhamma. I really do think that considering Dhamma is a very wholesome activity. I agree that there is a beginning to everything. Knowing a characteristic of reality can only start at the beginning. I like comparing bhaavanaa with cultivation - everything starts and grows. Understanding - that is pa~n~naa - can grow to the point of everything as we know it falling away but it has to start somewhere. Awareness is not the point. It is rather good for the conceited (and I mean me!) to remember that 'my awareness' is just like that of a dog. No big deal. Natural. Unbidden. Nina: "...paramattha dhammas can't be stressed enough. Also, that there is a danger of inclining to wrong view if we do not accept that there is no Nina, no Lodewijk. I had a little shock when hearing this on tape. Lodewijk does not like the way it is formulated, a name (conventional) and then paramattha dhammas. I said that this is a way of reminding that we have to apply the truth right now. The whole body is nothing, all the rupas fall away at each moment and this helps. Realities are not as they appear to us and the notion about nimitta helps here. When a dhamma appears it has already fallen away. Only the sign of it remains. Lodewijk said he did not like the phrase: the truth is the truth. But Kh Sujin had added that nobody can change the truth the Buddha taught." Scott: This is so hard to take for some, isn't it? So controversial. No Nina. No Scott. This doesn't mean that there can be no mettaa or no karunaa. This doesn't mean that there is no lust or clinging either. All of these realities exist. And all of this only with Beings as object. And Beings only concept. Impermanence prevents Beings from existing. I am busy as a single parent. We have a dog, Flower. I often find her too much work, and feed her and clean up after her in a rather distracted fashion, hardly considering her as a Being. Last night, for some reason, I felt kindly toward her, and interacted with her for a moment with what might have been mettaa - I think the characteristic of the moment fit with that. There is no Flower. If this was a moment of mettaa, then mettaa developed. There was no me being kind to a dog, really. I mean, if one filmed me then it would have looked as if there was me being kind to a dog. But it would have remained only a film. But now - where is that me? Where is that dog? Nowhere. But the mettaa - was that moment strengthening of that particular dhamma? If it was there then it was strengthened ever so little. I think the 'no dog' 'no Scott' is worth pondering because then there might be less 'Scott is so kind to dogs, even though he is so busy, what a great guy'. Just musing, Nina. Sincerely, Scott. #79766 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 5:34 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: But I > would say that anatta, as a characteristic of the khandhas, etc, is > something to be *realised*, and that such realisation occurs by virtue of the development of insight (panna). >>> Yes. One must follow the N8P rather than being content with mere book learning. > > I don't read the texts as talking about "putting anatta into action". > Would you mind saying a word or two about what you mean by this. >>> N8P for example, deeper levels of Jhana. >>> > The idea of anatta being "used" as a "strategy" in this respect is not one I've come across in the texts. Please say a few words about this, as you see it. >>> It is sutta after sutta after sutta. Anatta is not a speculation but a fact of existence that needs to be realized to remove dukha. Lots of Metta, Alex #79767 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 12:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... upasaka_howard Hi, Phil (and Dieter) - In a message dated 12/4/2007 6:15:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, philco777@... writes: p.s Dieter and Howard, thanks for telling me about what happened to your off-list Abhidhamma discussion. No problem, not time anyways. I am definitely interested in Abhidhamma, but probably won't study it in detail again until I have a bit more luxury of time. ================================ For me this is "just as well". I'm terribly busy these days! I'm serving as cantor on occasion, I'm very much involved with an organization for the homeless, and I'm reading the dhamma and works of Judaism, meditating regularly, playing tennis, and have just resumed taekwondo after a 15-year hiatus! And that's just the tip of the iceberg. It's actually getting too hectic - I need to simplify. With metta, Howard #79768 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 6:35 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 5, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 5 The True Refuge. We read in the "Mahå Parinibbåna Sutta" (Dígha Nikåya 16, The Book of the Great Decease, 100-101) 1 that the Buddha spoke to Ånanda about his old age, being in his eightieth year, and that he said that his life was spent: Therefore, Ånanda, be an island to yourself, a refuge to yourself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge. And how, Ånanda, is a monk an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge? When he dwells contemplating body in the body... feeling in the feelings, mind in the mind, and mental objects in the mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge. Those monks of mine, Ånanda, who now, or after I am gone, abide as an island to themselves, as a refuge to themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and refuge, seeking no other refuge; it is they who will become the highest, if they have the desire to learn. When we were sitting near the Bodhi Tree for a Dhamma discussion, Acharn Sujin said that we are an island to ourselves when we develop understanding ourselves. We listen in order to have more understanding and we consider what we heard. It has to be our own understanding, nobody else can develop it for us. We read in this Sutta about the four Applications of Mindfulness: physical phenomena, feelings, cittas, and dhammas, that is, cetasikas and other realities under different aspects not included in the other three Applications of Mindfulness. Acharn Sujin explained that when we read about these four Applications of Mindfulness, we should not merely think of their names. They should remind us to be aware of the reality that appears now. When people read in the section on the Application of Mindfulness of the Body about mindfulness of breath or the cemetery meditations, they wonder in what way they should apply this. People have different accumulated inclinations: some people may develop meditation subjects such as breath or the foulness of the body and they may even attain a high degree of calm, whereas others do not have such inclinations. There is no rule that people should develop samatha, calm, to a high degree before they develop insight. But no matter what one's inclinations are, one should know and understand that what appears because of conditions is impermanent and non-self. After each section of the Applications of Mindfulness, it has been repeatedly stated that one should contemplate the origination and dissolution of realities. This understanding can only be acquired by the development of insight, right understanding of the reality that appears now. Also the citta that develops mindfulness on breathing as a meditation subject of samatha is impermanent and non- self. We should not forget that the four Applications of Mindfulness include all the common realities of our daily life, such as pain, pleasant feeling, hearing, tasting, sound or tangible object. These are the objects of satipatthåna. ******* Nina. #79769 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hi Collette, Thanks for your response. But I can't understand the following: ..........."> DC: Anatta is not a characteristic of naama-ruupa, that puthujjana can see. It can be seen only by the ariyans. For us there is attaa. colette: pardon me, did somebody just call for the bottle with the gennii in it or did they call for the bottle that they want to put a gennii in? You have said "...can be seen only by..." Hold it right there. <....> For us there is Puthajjana, there is naama-rupa, there is anatta, etc. I can't find it in myself to cow-tow to an obsolete ideal such as the Theravadans in their quest to maintain a Caste System and a control of all wealth while excluding poverty from their ranks and forcing it upon other sentient beings. We can certainly go on an offensive to attack the validity of a Theravadan ideal HOWEVER, that is outside the actual goal I intended on achieving here. So let's view it as water flowing beneath the bridge."-------------- DC: What you have written here has no relevance to the subject. I am sure you can go on the offensive against Theravada. What I gave above is the Theravaada perspective on the matter. It is immaterial to me whether you like it or not. >>Colette: "colette: that's a Freudian slip huh? all of your fingers conspired against you to print that, didn't they? Dukka = Satisfactory Sukha = Unsatisfactory. Hmmmmmmmmm, something's amis here. ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- DC: Nothing is amiss there. You seem to be not able to understand what I said. .................. >>Collette "I believe that I should stop my examination of the rest of this for personal reasons. ............ DC: I agree wholeheartedly with that. Many thanks for the response/ D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79770 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) nilovg Hi Larry, Op 4-dec-2007, om 4:17 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I do feel feelings > in my body when I am happy or sad, angry or loving. -------- N: Of course, this is very common. We have learnt that citta and cetasikas (including feeling), produce ruupas of the body. The ahetuka vipaakacittas of seeing etc. are too weak, these do not produce ruupas. At the moments of javana dosa-muulacittas with domanassa may arise, and these produce ruupas. When these are strong we may notice bodily phenomena. As was here discussed: when very sad we say: he/she has a broken heart. Such a rupa is experienced by body- consciouisness just for a very short moment and then it falls away. But then javanacittas follow with dosa and unpleasant feeling having as object the rupa produced by akusala citta with sadness. All these moments pass so fast, they seem only one moment. You may think of feelings in the body, but we have to be careful distinguishing nama and rupa. You remember Vis. XIV, 149, about the six pairs of sobhana cetasikas: one of them concerns citta and one body, that is the mental body, cetasikas. But there is more: < The Tiika summarizes the six pairs of tranquillity, lightness, mallleability, wieldiness, proficiency and rectitude. They all assist sobhana citta and its accompanying cetasikas so that citta and cetasikas are alert, healthy and efficient in performing kusala. They are classified as six pairs, one pertaining to citta and one pertaining to the mental body, cetasikas. The Tiika gives another reason why they are classified as twofold. ----------------------- Note 65, taken from the Tiika: 'And here by tranquilization, etc., of consciousness only consciousness is tranquilized and becomes light, malleable, wieldy, proficient and upright. But with tranquilization, etc., of the [mental]body also the material body is tranquilized, and so on. This is why the twofoldness of states is given by the Blessed One here, but not in all places' (Pm.489). N: Thus we see that the good qualities of tranquillity, lightness etc. also condition bodily phenomena. > Nina. #79771 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et nilovg Hi Phil, good we agree that mindfulness of the body does not exclude mindfulness of nama. I was not sure this was clear to everyone. O.K. I understand that you have enough of this thread, no problem. Just one remark and no need to answer. Op 4-dec-2007, om 12:14 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Meditation is not for everyone, there are not always > conditions for it, as the impediments post (thank you) you posted > the other day said. (Really, much better ground for questioning > meditation in those impediments than in the non-textually supported > criticisms you and others make, self-view involved, non-value of > jhanas etc. you are on very shaky ground there!) ------------- N: no. not non-value of jhana. Jhana is not crtitized. But see what Kom wrote: ------- Here are more quotes (but leave them aside if you do not feel like reading): The Vinaya, Book of Discipline (V), Cullavagga X, Eight Important Rules for Nuns (the Brahma-faring will not last long) and the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Eights, Ch VI, The Gotamid, §1, explain about the endurance and the disappearance of the true Dhamma (saddhamma) in the Dispensation of the Buddha Gotama. We read that the Buddha said to Ånanda: “If, Ånanda, women had not obtained the going forth from home into homelessness in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth- finder, the Brahma-faring, Ånanda, would have lasted long, true dhamma would have endured for a thousand years. But since, Ånanda, women have gone forth... in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, now, Ånanda, the Brahma-faring will not last long, true dhamma will endure only for five hundred years....” The Commentary to the Sutta “The Gotamid”, in the Gradual Sayings, the Manorathapúraùí, gives an additional explanation: “The words vassasahassaÿ, thousand years, that are used here, refer only to the arahats who were endowed with the four analytical knowledges (patisambidhas ). But when we take into consideration the following thousand years, there were only arahats who are sukkha vipassaka (who only developed insight and did not attain jhåna). In the next period of thousand years (the third period) there are anågåmis (who have attained the third stage of enlightenment, the stage of the non-returner). In the next period of thousand years (the fourth period) there are sakadågåmís (who have attained the second stage of enlightenment, the stage of the once-returner). In the next period of thousand years (the fifth period) there are sotåpannas (who have attained the first stage of enlightenment, the stage of the streamwinner). Thus, the saddhamma, the true dhamma, of the level of pativedha, realization, can, according to this reckoning, last for five thousand years. Evenso pariyatti dhamma (of the level of intellectual understanding) can endure for five thousand years. Without pariyatti dhamma there can be no pativedha dhamma. This means that when pariyatti dhamma has disappeared the monkhood will have changed into something else.” It can be concluded that at the present time, which is the third period of thousand years in the Dispensation of the Buddha Gotama, nobody has the excellent qualities of the degree of the arahat, and the highest attainment will only be that of the anågåmí. -------- When reading these texts I think along the lines as Kom suggested above. Nina. #79772 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. nilovg Dear Scott, Op 4-dec-2007, om 14:08 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Understanding - that is pa~n~naa - can grow to the point of everything > as we know it falling away but it has to start somewhere. Awareness > is not the point. It is rather good for the conceited (and I mean > me!) to remember that 'my awareness' is just like that of a dog. No > big deal. Natural. Unbidden. ------- N: Comparing oneself to a dog can also be omaana: self-disrespect. I cannot tell about others, but an example could be: a thought of: O, I am no good, or throwing oneself away as said in conventional language. Also this can be a form of conceit. But each person can only know this for himself. ---------- > Scott: This is so hard to take for some, isn't it? So controversial. > No Nina. No Scott. This doesn't mean that there can be no mettaa or > no karunaa. This doesn't mean that there is no lust or clinging > either. All of these realities exist. And all of this only with > Beings as object. And Beings only concept. Impermanence prevents > Beings from existing. ------- N: Lodewijk says that he understands that citta, cetasika and rupa are what is really true. But he still does not like the formula: there is no... + names. He said: why hammer on this on and on. He finds it not a good way of explaining, though he understands what Kh Sujin means. It makes him sad. -------- > > S: I am busy as a single parent. We have a dog, Flower. ... There > is no Flower. If this was a > moment of mettaa, then mettaa developed. There was no me being kind > to a dog, really. I mean, if one filmed me then it would have looked > as if there was me being kind to a dog. But it would have remained > only a film. But now - where is that me? Where is that dog? > Nowhere. But the mettaa - was that moment strengthening of that > particular dhamma? If it was there then it was strengthened ever so > little. I think the 'no dog' 'no Scott' is worth pondering because > then there might be less 'Scott is so kind to dogs, even though he is > so busy, what a great guy'. Just musing, Nina. -------- N: But a good musing. I like the comparison with a film. I will try this on Lodewijk. BTW I enjoy tales about dogs, since I like dogs. Nina. #79773 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 8:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Khun Sujin's explanations. avalo1968 Hello Jon, Jon: The problem with testing explanations or instruction given by another against reality is that our perception of reality is deeply flawed, despite our having been students of the teachings for such a long time (not only in this life but presumably in other lifetimes too). So it could easily end up a case of wrong view confirming wrong practice! Let me give an example. We often hear it said that only by trying a particular 'practice' for ourselves can its benefits be appreciated. Now no doubt those advocating the practice have experienced results that *seem* to correlate with descriptions found in the texts. But if it's not a practice that is mentioned in the texts then the results cannot be the ones described in the texts, despite the apparent 'confirmation' from the texts. I think you'd agree with this. Robert: I am afraid we will eternally disagree about practice and there is no resolving it. My point is that, in the end, you must get your nose out of the books and bringing the teachings to your life. When I was a very young man, I suddenly found myself as a soldier in Vietnam. I am very sure that I could have read a hundred books about what it is like to be a young American kid in that situation, and I would not have known what it was like in the way that I did by living it day by day. Reading about it just isn't the same. So, it could be that working with our experience is tricky ands with many ways to go astray, but there is no alternative. You have to do the best you can, make mistakes, and keep working with it. That is all you can do. I wish you well with your practice, however you chose to define it. Robert A. #79774 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:09 am Subject: Perfections Corner (44) nichiconn Dear All, This is the continuation of Chapter 7: The Perfection of Truthfulness, taken from the book "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ As we read in the "Basket of Conduct", the Bodhisatta highly valued truthfulness. He spoke the truth, saying that he was only for seven days a recluse wholeheartedly, with full confidence in kusala. He expressed his confidence in kusala and in truthfulness by a solemn utterance, an "Assertion of Truth". This was the condition for the brahman youth to recover. An "Assertion of Truth" is a forceful affirmation of faith in the truth which can create a direct effect on someone else's condition {*}. {*} I have added this whole paragraph with an explanation of "Assertion of Truth". Some people may have doubts about the "Assertion of Truth" referred to in the above quoted passage. Or, they may have heard that an Assertion of Truth can bring its result according to one's wish. However, when a person has to experience suffering and distress, he cannot, in order to overcome his suffering, utter an Assertion of Truth without knowing what truthfulness is and without understanding its high value. It is essential that one, before making an Assertion of Truth, sees the superiority and the benefit of truthfulness. Moreover, it is necessary to develop the perfection of truthfulness. If someone develops kusala and his goal is the realization of the four noble Truths, he should know that the way leading to this goal is the development of all the perfections. If someone accumulates the perfection of truthfulness together with the other perfections so that they gain strength, and if he sees the benefit of truthfulness, he may express an Assertion of Truth. However, not everyone can do so, it also depends on the power of his kusala and the degree of his understanding of truthfulness. Everybody should know for himself what degree of kusala he wants to develop and to what extent. If someone does not listen to the Dhamma and does not accumulate all kinds of good qualities, he may not even be intent on the development of kusala. He may only be infatuated with pleasures and perform very few good deeds. Whereas if someone has listened also in past lives to the Dhamma of former Buddhas, if he has contemplated the Dhamma and acquired more understanding, he will be inclined to develop kusala. Some people may, throughout life, have no inclination to develop kusala as much as they are able to. They may not have the accumulated conditions to even think of kusala, and therefore, they cannot perform it. Someone may not be intent on helping others, or he has wrong understanding about kusala; he may wonder why he should tire himself or take the trouble to help others. This shows us the diverse nature of the cittas we accumulate day after day. Some people, even if they have listened to the Dhamma, may not be able to forgive others, because they cannot apply the Dhamma. We have to accumulate kusala from now on so that it can be further developed. We can begin to be intent on forgiving others, not disapproving of them. All of us who traverse the cycle of birth and death have many defilements and hence we should develop all the different ways of kusala so that defilements can be eradicated. If we merely think about developing kusala, kusala will not be strong enough to be a condition for sincerity and truthfulness, for the practice in conformity with our resolutions. The accumulation of wholesome qualities is the condition for truthfulness in action and speech. We have to continue to accumulate kusala so that we shall not be neglectful in applying kusala, in practising it. ===to be continued, connie #79775 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 9:08 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (71) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 12 14. Ti.msanipaato 1. Subhaajiivakambavanikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 380. "Sudhotarajapacchada.m subha.m, gonakatuulikasanthata.m nava.m; abhiruha sayana.m mahaaraha.m, candanama.n.ditasaaragandhika.m. 378. Climb on to a bed with a canopy well washed of dirt, beautiful, spread with a comforter and a woollen quilt, new, very costly, decorated with sandalwood, having an excellent smell. txt: Sudhotarajapacchadanti sudhotataaya pavaahitaraja.m uttaracchada.m. Subhanti sobhana.m. Gonakatuulikasanthatanti diighalomakaa.lakojavena ceva ha.msalomaadipu.n.naaya tuulikaaya ca santhata.m. Navanti abhinava.m. Mahaarahanti mahaggha.m. Candanama.n.ditasaaragandhikanti gosiisakaadisaaracandanena ma.n.ditataaya surabhigandhika.m, evaruupa.m sayanamaaruha, ta.m aaruhitvaa yathaasukha.m sayaahi ceva nisiida caati attho. 378. A canopy well washed of dirt (sudhota-raja-pacchada.m) means: a canopy (uttara-cchada.m) whose dirt has been removed by being well washed (sudhota-taaya). Beautiful means: lovely. Spread with a comforter and a woollen quilt (gonaka-tuulika-santhata.m) means: spread (santhata.m) with a comforter (tuulikaaya) filled with goose down, etc, and a bedspread of long-haired black fleece. New (nava.m) means: new (abhinava.m). Very costly (mahaaraha.m) means: valuable (mahaggaha.m). Decorated with sandalwood, having an excellent smell (candana-ma.n.dita-sara-gandhika.m) means: climb on a bed with fragrant perfume (wurabhi-gandhika.m), decorated (ma.n.dita-taaya) with excellent sandalwood of the "cow's head" variety, etc. (go-siisakaadi-saara-candanena), and having climbed on it, sleep and sit there as much as you like. verse: 381. "Uppala.m cudakaa samuggata.m, yathaa ta.m amanussasevita.m; eva.m tva.m brahmacaarinii, sakesa"ngesu jara.m gamissasi. 379. A [blue] lotus that rises up from the water - just as it is untouched by men, so too are you who live the holy life. You will go to old age with your own limbs [untouched]. Uppala.m cudakaa samuggatanti ca-kaaro nipaatamatta.m, udakato uggata.m u.t.thita.m accuggamma .thita.m suphullamuppala.m. Yathaa ta.m amanussasevitanti ta~nca rakkhasapariggahitaaya pokkhara.niyaa jaatattaa nimmanussehi sevita.m kenaci aparibhuttameva bhaveyya. Eva.m tva.m brahmacaariniiti evameva ta.m su.t.thu phullamuppala.m viya tuva.m brahmacaarinii. Sakesa"ngesu attano sariiraavayavesu kenaci aparibhuttesuyeva jara.m gamissasi, mudhaayeva jaraaji.n.naa bhavissasi. 379. In the phrase a [blue] lotus that rises up (samuggata.m) from the water (udakaa), the word ca (untranslated] is only a particle. Standing up, risen (uggata.m), arisen, rising up out of the water, a [blue] lotus is in full bloom. Just as it is not touched by men (a-manussa-sevita.m) means: and through the absence of men (nimmanussehi) who touch it (sevita.m) because of the fact it has grown in a lotus pond that is haunted by rakkhasa demons, it would not be enjoyed by anyone. So too (eva.m) are you who live the holy life means: So too (eva.m = eva), you who live the holy life are like that [blue] lotus in full bloom. With your own limbs, with the limbs of your body not enjoyed by anyone, you will go to old age (jara.m), you will become frail with old age (jaraa-ji.n.naa) in vain. ==to be continued, connie #79776 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 10:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... moellerdieter Hi Phil .. Howard and Nina , you wrote: p.s Dieter and Howard, thanks for telling me about what happened to your off-list Abhidhamma discussion. No problem, not time anyways. I am definitely interested in Abhidhamma, but probably won't study it in detail again until I have a bit more luxury of time. ' D: reminding me on Christine 's signature 'The trouble is that you think you have time'.., always a valueable contemplation about that period between rising and ceasing , birth and death , and how we make use of it by our priorities .. I think we should go on as usual: discussing Dhamma aspects of common interest ..and if our communication leads to better understanding , or even new insights, great.. otherwise never mind. These aspects may be related to the Sutta pitaka or Abhidhamma pitaka, when it is useful for the understanding/practise of the Noble Path. Hence agreeing to what I take from your 's and Howard's comment : detail study of Abhidhamma perhaps later at a more convenient time.. ;-) with Metta Dieter #79777 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 11:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. moellerdieter Hi Nina (Sarah), you wrote: 'I have the transl. by Bhikkhu Bodhi and also the Co he translated. Do you have this? It is very good.' D: I haven't .. could be interesting to compare the translations ( I have a German version too)..do you have a link to BB's version? Concerning the topic of meditation , I stumbled upon following Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya ..transl. J.D.Ireland ) , certainly good for contemplation , in particular -I believe -for 'Abhidhammikas' ;-) Standing at one side Kaamada devaputta7 said to the Lord: "It is difficult to do, Lord, very difficult to do!" Yet what is difficult to do they do - Disciples8 virtuous with collected minds. For those who enter in the homeless state There is contentment bringing bliss."It is difficult to attain, Lord, this contentment!" Yet what is difficult to attain they attain, Those devoted to stilling the mind. For them both day and night The mind delights in meditation."It is difficult, Lord, to concentrate the mind!" Yet what is difficult to concentrate they concentrate, Those devoted to controlling the senses. Breaking through Death's net those Noble Ones9 walk freely, Kaamada."It is difficult, Lord, going on an uneven path!" Yet along this uneven path they walk, Those Nobles Ones, Kaamada. On the uneven the ignoble fall headlong, But the way is even for the Noble, For over the uneven they walk evenly.- SN 2.6 unquote with Metta Dieter #79778 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 11:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 4-dec-2007, om 20:07 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > On the uneven the ignoble fall headlong, > But the way is even for the Noble, > For over the uneven they walk evenly.- SN 2.6 ------ The Co states that for the beginner pa~n`naa is weak so he can fall down. I like to read about the complaints how difficult the Path is, but it can be done. The Net of Death can only be broken by the arahat, and he also must develop insight to the full, not only calm. I have more on the co (in Thai) to the pa~n~nasutta. Noble silence is the fourfold jhaana. B.B.'s books are as far as I know not on line. Nina. #79779 From: "shennieca" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 12:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Asoka, Ch 6, no 6. shennieca Hi Dieter, all, I found another translation of SN 2.6 from accesstoinsight. ---------- SN 2.6 Kamada Sutta, Kamada's Lament (excerpt) Translated from the Pali by Andrew Olendzki PTS: S i 48 CDB i 142 [Kamada:] So hard it is to do, Lord, It's so very hard to do! [Buddha:] But still they do what's hard to do, Who steady themselves with virtue. For one pursuing homelessness, Content arrives, and with it joy. [Kamada:] So hard it is to get, Lord, This content of which you speak! [Buddha:] But still they get what's hard to get, Who delight in a tranquil mind. The mind of those, both day and night, Delights in its development. [Kamada:] So hard it is to tame, Lord, This mind of which you speak! [Buddha:] But still they tame what's hard to tame, Who delight in senses at peace. Cutting through mortality's net, The nobles, Kamada, proceed. [Kamada:] So hard it is to go, Lord, On this path that gets so rough! [Buddha:] Still nobles, Kamada, proceed On paths both rough and hard to take. Those who are less than noble fall On their heads when the path gets rough. But for nobles the path is smooth — For nobles smooth out what is rough! ---------- Translator's note This plaintive cry of the deva Kamada, concerning the difficulty of Buddhist practice, will resonate with almost anyone who has embarked on the temporary homelessness of a retreat at IMS or elsewhere. The steady reply of the Buddha here admonishes Kamada to overcome his weaknesses and find the nobility within himself to tread the noble path. The tone of this poem is so typical of the approach the Buddha displays throughout the Pali texts — compassionate yet firm, reasoned but profoundly inspiring. The progression is also characteristic — from virtue to joy, tranquillity to diligent development, and finally cutting through the snares of death and rebirth and proceeding to undying nibbana. Kamada is reminded that others have done, gotten and tamed what he is having such difficulty doing, getting and taming. Others have taken the hard path to the goal, and all he lacks is the resolve, the hero's determination, to forge ahead despite the obstacles. The lyrical almost sing-song quality of the verse has been hopefully retained by translating it in something like its original meter of eight syllables per line. -------------- Elaine: Even a deva says it is difficult to do Buddhist practice but humans and devas have managed to tame their minds. So, it is possible (provided the conditions are right). ;-)) When the conditions are right, they will automatically get it. Those, whose conditions aren't right, will never get it, no matter how hard the 'trying' gets going. Is this correct? With metta, Elaine #79780 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 5:44 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dacostacharles I forgot, No-self is a stage in Buddhist development. In the beginning it arises due to certain conditions. In the end it is, permanent and not a source of suffering, pure wisdom, kindness, and power. The Buddha call that self, Nirvana! Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles DaCosta Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 12:59 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy Dear DM, Good digging. The only problem with it that I can fine is the following statements: “As might be imagined, the first group accused the second group of denying the concept of anatta, or not-self; <....> #79781 From: "shennieca" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 1:29 pm Subject: Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. shennieca Hi Scott, I read your post about Flower. It is nice. I think there is a 'Scott'. When you have metta, it is the metta that have arised in 'you', it is not the metta from another person. The 'no Scott', 'no Flower' view is very extreme, imo. I think, a person must have love and compassion for him/herself before he/she can give love to others. In Buddhism, it is not wrong to have love for ourselves. There is a story about Queen Mallika. She told King Pasenadi that she loves herself the most. The King thought that she would say, she loves the King the most. So, King Pasenadi went and asked the Buddha if Queen Mallika is correct and the Buddha said, she is correct. It is the same with metta chant, it starts with "may I be well and happy" and then it goes on to "may all beings be well and happy". I think we should be happy with the good things that we have done. 'You' should feel happy that 'you' treat Flower with loving- kindness. And the morbid part, sorry about this. At the moment of death, it is best to remember the good things that we have done. We should rejoice in the metta, karuna, and all the wholesome feelings that have arisen in us and remember it. Hopefully, that the same happy feelings will arise again at the last moment and we will get a heavenly rebirth. It is possible to attain Nibbana in a deva realm. That would be the best thing to happen for us, I think. May we be well and happy. With metta & karuna, Elaine #79782 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 2:18 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy truth_aerator Dear Charles, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > No-self is a stage in Buddhist development. In the beginning it arises due to certain conditions. In the end it is, permanent and not a source of suffering, pure wisdom, kindness, and power. The Buddha call that self, Nirvana! > Charles DaCosta > While you do have a point in that Nibbana: a)Permanent. b) Paramam Sukham (Ultimate Happiness) c) It exists as an element? (Nibbana Dhatu). I do have a problem with "Self" part. Didn't the Buddha say that "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta" ? If Nibbana is classed as a dhamma then it would be anatta. Lots of Metta, Alex #79783 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 4:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) lbidd2 Hi Nina, Nina: "We have learnt that citta and cetasikas (including feeling), produce ruupas of the body." Larry: Excellent, this explains a lot. I still don't have a clear sense of mental feeling but this explains the feelings I do recognize. Thanks very much. Larry #79784 From: han tun Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 6:06 pm Subject: Perfections Corner: To Connie, Sarah, Nina hantun1 Dear Connie, Sarah and Nina, Connie and I had agreed to present alternately one chapter at a time from the book "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. I notice that Connie’s presentation has come almost to the end of the chapter on The Perfections of Truthfulness. So my turn is due shortly. But I am going to Yangon from mid-December to mid-January, and I will not have an access to internet during the period. Therefore, I would like to request to wait till I come back from Yangon, or alternatively, Connie may kindly proceed with another chapter forthwith. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #79785 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:38 pm Subject: Re: It *is* burning with greed, hatred and delusion, sarah dear!!!! philofillet Hi Sarah Yes, much clearer below - thanks. Metta, Phil > My other comment was cryptic/confusing/misleading I agree. I was meaning > to suggest that the reason the fires burn on and on, consuming all the > fuel of the 'all' and are so very difficult to extinguish is on account of > not seeing their impermanence and unsatisfactoriness of the 'all'. When > these characteristics are clearly known, there is less and less fuel for > the fires. > > "Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated...." > > Hope that clarifies. Thx for raising the point. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > #79786 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 7:47 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... philofillet Hi Dieter > D: reminding me on Christine 's signature 'The trouble is that you think you have time'.., > always a valueable contemplation about that period between rising and ceasing , birth and death , and how we make use of it by our priorities .. Yes. These days I am very influenced by suttas(such as the wonderful sea turtle and the yoke simile in SN) that emphasize the mindstaggering rarity of human birth. Some friends emphasize that this is only one lifetime out countless ones, and while that is true, I cannot forget those suttas that urge us to make the most out of this rare human birth at a time when the Buddha's teaching still exists. For me, "making the most" means establishing wholesome patterns of behaviour in speech, body and mind, keeping the precepts, that sort of thing. The Buddha also says that wisdom into ceasing and faling of phenomena etc are not out of reach for the lay person, but I think simple principles of morality come first. Thus my current emphasis on simple suttas in AN. Studying Abhidhamma will help condition wisdom, I don't doubt that, but I have lost my faith in a connection between sila and studying abhidhamma without firm support from the suttas. The way of sila is a hard one, full of sighing and tears, that's what the Buddha says. What is to be done and not done is not complicated for the lay person - it is sticking to the clear principles moment by moment that is hard. Completely off topic, perhaps, but serving as a bit of a temporary sign-off. Metta, Phil #79787 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 8:04 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. philofillet Hi Scott, Nina and all . It is rather good for the conceited (and I mean > > me!) to remember that 'my awareness' is just like that of a dog. No > > big deal. Natural. Unbidden. > ------- > N: Comparing oneself to a dog can also be omaana: self-disrespect. I think this is interesting. I know what Scott means, and I can appreciate "no Scott, no Flower", intellectually at least (and I know it is the ultimate truth) but I also wonder in light of the teaching of different realms if it is not a kind of wrong view to be comfortable comparing one's consciousness to a dog's? I mean, why did the Buddha teach of human realms and animal realms, why are there so very many suttas warning of rebirth in unhappy destination. (I assume the animal realm is one of those.) I don't say this to debate, just because I am curious about all those suttas. I feel very inspired to be grateful for human birth and devoted to behaving in a way that is worthy of it, something like that. Of course, developing the panna that one day knows "no Mona, No Phil" (Mona was the dog that got killed in front of my eyes by a car) can only be developed in the human realm. Let's be very grateful for being born where we were! Very good kamma must have been involved. BTW, as a parting gift (I'll be away for a few months) I'd like to point out a very interesting term I found buried in BB's commentarial notes to a fairly obscure (I think) sutta in SN 19. It is attabhaavapatilaabho, on p.815,n346 of the BB anthology. "The expression attabhaavapatilaabho, which literally means 'acquisition of selfhood,' is used idiomatically to denote a concrete form of individual identity." I find this very helpful, because I am always stuck saying "ego" or "illusionary sense of self" or something like that, but here we have a very clear term to denote the person we come to believe in. In the sutta(s) in question Mahaamogoggallaana displays a smile and says "it is wonderful indeed! I is amazing indeed! That there could be such a being, that there could be such a spirit, that there could be such a form of individual existence" upon seeing various ghoulsih beings, mostly butchers and other killers, who have been reborn in the hungry ghost realm after countless lives in the hell realm. This "form of individual existence" is very important. We are not talking just about fleeting dhammas, we are talking about a "form of individual existence." So Phil is a "form of individual existence" (attabhaavapatilaabho) and Mona is, Flower, and Scott and so on. I think this term helps us to grasp (a little) that while it is not true to say that persons exist in reality, it is also not true to say "no Scott, no Flower" and so on so readily. I don't know if you know what I mean. But I am happy to have stumbled across this "attabhaavapatilaabho" and if Naomi's dream comes true and we have a dog some day we have found the name, I think. Metta, Phil #79788 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 8:07 pm Subject: Holiday sign-off philofillet Hi all There is real momentum with a novel I am writing, and I find DSG so fascinating that it is interfering. So I am going to sign off here until I finish the first draft. I would guess February or March. Matt and Robert K, I was going to write to you today, but I know already you are both going to get really long posts from me because yours were so interesting, so I'm going to hold off until I get back. Thanks, and a happy holiday season to you all. Metta, Phil #79789 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 8:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Hi Ken O (& Han), --- Ken O wrote: > Hi Han Tun > > Feelings is processed by the brain is scientific. I give you a > scientific medical show that I have seen in Discovery Channel, there > was a person poisoned and went into a coma. the person was given > injections and the bodily react, jerk violently even though the mind > is in coma. Because the injection was very painful, it was shot into > the muscles but the mind there is no change in reaction. ... S: I don't think we can say that there is no change in reaction in the mind. It may not be noticeable, but who can say there is no change in the cittas? As we know, they are changing all the time anyway and all kinds of factors have an effect, even for those in a coma. Cheers! Sarah ======= #79790 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 4, 2007 8:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Boomers - free of fun? sarahprocter... Hi Howard, I was glad to hear about your various activities - clearly NOT free of fun! Belatedly, thanks for all your comments on this article. -- upasaka@... wrote: > Sarah, thanks for the article, Sarah. What interests me the most is > that > it raises the issue of the relationship between one's birth religion > and > one's adopted Dhamma. I'll have more to say about this, but for now, > I'll say > just the following: > The author seems to suggest a conversion that involves a complete > replacing of ones religion of origin by Buddhism. Now, my initial > involvement with > Judaism was largely an ignorant and perfunctory involvement. My > involvement > with the Dhamma has become central to my life. Interestingly, my > heartfelt > taking of refuge in the Dhamma, my study of it, and my practice of it > have led > me to see important elements of it within Judaism and have provided me > with a > perspective that has reintroduced me to my birth religion in a far > deeper way > than ever before. For me, the Dhamma is perfection, and it points to > the > reality and the practice that lies at the heart of what is of value > elsewhere. .... S: This is interesting. When we were in India, a Thai friend said that she thought it must be difficult for someone brought up in another culture to understand Buddhism. There was a hint (possibly imagined on my part), that those of us who were not 'born Buddhists' could not appreciate the teachings in the way that a 'born Buddhist' could. I was rather surprised and responded that wrong views and ignorance are just the same regardless of the tradition one has been brought up in. I don't see any distinction. A lot of what is taken for being saddha (faith) or taking refuge in the Triple Gem amongst Buddhists is really attachment and ignorance. I think it's an advantage to really question what one hears and reads. In Jon's TV interview, he was also asked 'what is different for foreigners who study Buddhism?'. I think he also responded to the effect that the problems are the same. The trappings may be diferent, but the realities and the 3 fires are just the same. No difference in the Path. This is why the Buddha's teachings are universal truths for all, regardless of background and interests. ... > Somewhere the Buddha said something to the effect that whatever is > conducive to wisdom and relinquishment, wherever it is found, is > Dhamma. I think > that is true. Reality is reality, and truth is truth. But I hasten to > add that > for me it is the Tipitaka that is the gold standard by which all else > is to > be measured. .... S: Yes, we agree. It's not the words or the language which counts, but the understanding of realities and truths at this moment. Metta, Sarah ======== #79791 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 1:30 am Subject: Visuddhimagga XVII, Ch 212, 213 and Tiika, part 1. nilovg Visuddhimagga XVII, Ch 212, 213. Intro: The following sections explain that in the course of life naama, here, the cetasikas that are vipaaka, condition the eye-base they are dependent on in different ways. Naama, the conditioning dhamma, stands for the cetasikas that accompany vipaakacitta. This is consistant with the way the links of the Dependant Origination are enumerated: consciousness, vi~n~naa.na, conditions naama/ruupa, where naama stands for the cetasikas. Naama is here taken separately as conditioning factor. Moreover, also non-resultant naama is a conditioning factor for the sense-bases, in the same ways. ----------- Text Vis.: 212. And during life, result conditions The other five in fourfold way; The non-resultant kind can be Explained in the aforesaid way. Text Vis. 213: Again, in the course of an existence, the other resultant mentality, which has as its physical basis the eye sensitivity, etc., is a condition in four ways, as postnascence, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the rest of the five beginning with the eye base. -------- N: The text refers to the naama (cetasikas) accompanying the vipaakacitta which is seeing that has the eyesense as physical base, and the naama accompanying the other sense-cognitions that have the relevant senses as their physical bases. The bases have to arise just before the sense-cognitions that are dependent on them. When seeing-consciousness arises, the ruupa which is eye-base has not fallen away yet, ruupa lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta. Ruupa, at its arising moment is still weak and it cannot serve as base, thus, after its arising moment it is a base for the relevant sense-cognition and accompanying cetasikas. The sense-cognitions, such as seeing-consciousness, and the accompanying cetasikas support the eyebase by way of post-nascence- condition. The text states that naama, the cetasikas accompanying the vipaakacitta that is one of the sense-cognitions, condition the relevant sense-base by way of post-nascence-condition and other conditions. Seeing-consciousness is still present to its base, and thus it conditions it by way of presence-condition and non-disappearance condition. Dissociation is mentioned among the conditions, since naama and ruupa are dissociated. Only citta and cetasikas are closely associated, sampayutta. They arise at the same time, are dependent on the same physical base, share the same object and fall away together. Naama cannot be associated with ruupa in this way. The other sense-cognitions condition the relevant bases in the same ways. Vipaaka-condition is not mentioned here among the conditions. The Tiika mentions that here, in the course of life, naama is not vipaaka- condition for the eye-base and the other sense-bases. At the moment of rebirth naama and ruupa are produced by kamma and are thus the results of kamma arising at the same time. The Tiika states that only then naama conditions the physical base by vipaaka-condition. Both of them are results of kamma arising together. In the course of life they do not arise together at the same time. -------- Text Vis.: And as the resultant, so also the non-resultant is explained; therefore [the mentality] classed as profitable, etc., should be understood as their condition in four ways. ------- N: The javana-cittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas in the case of non-arahats, arising in a process are dependent on the heart-base. Here, naama (the cetasikas accompanying citta) condition the heart- base in the same four ways as just mentioned. ---------- Text Vis.: This, firstly, is how it should be understood what bases mentality alone is a condition for in rebirth-linking and in the course of an existence, and how it is a condition. (to be continued) ******** Nina. #79792 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 1:31 am Subject: Visuddhimagga XVII, Ch 214, 215 and Tiika. part 2. nilovg Visuddhimagga XVII, Ch 214, 215. Intro: In the following sections, ruupa is taken separately as a conditioning factor for the bases.This is consistant with the link of the Dependent Origination: naama/ruupa or naama and ruupa condition the bases, the aayatanas. The heart-base conditions the mind-base, the rebirth-consciousness that is dependent on it at the moment of rebirth by way of conascent- condition and other conditions that are conascent. The ruupa which is the four Great Elements condition at rebirth whatever sense-bases arise at that moment, and this depends on the way of birth as we shall see. Moreover, in the course of life the four Great Elements condition the sense-bases. --------- Text Vis. 214: [(2) Materiality as Condition] Not even for a single base In immaterial becoming Is matter a condition here. But in five-aggregate becoming Basis as matter is condition At rebirth in a sixfold way For the sixth base; the primaries Are for the five in fourfold way. 215. As to matter, the materiality of the physical [heart-] basis is a condition in rebirth-linking in six ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the sixth, the mind base. ------- N: As we have seen, the mind-base stands for citta, and here for rebirth-consciousness. The heart-base produced by kamma at the moment of rebirth arises at the same time as the rebirth-consciousness that is also produced by kamma. Thus, the heart-base conditions the mind- base by way of conascence-condition and other conditions that are conascent. Dissociation is mentioned since naama and ruupa are dissociated. -------- Text Vis.: But the four primaries are in general, that is to say, in rebirth-linking and in the course of an existence, conditions in four ways, as conascence, support, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for any of the five bases beginning with the eye, whenever they arise. ------ N: The four Great elements of solidity, cohesion, heat and motion arise together with each of the five sense-bases, they are a firm support to them. The eye-base, for example, arises in a group of ten ruupas, a decad, consisting of the four great Elements and four which are colour, odour, flavour, nutritive essence, thus the eight inseparable ruupas that always arise together in each group, and in addition: life faculty which arises in each group produced by kamma, as well as eyesense, thus there are ten ruupas in the group with eyesense. The four Great elements condition the sense-bases by conascence- condition, support, presence, and non-disappearance-condition. They are present to the bases they condition, but there is no mutuality- condition. The sense-bases are dependent on the four Great Elements, the could not arise without them, but the four Great elements are not dependent on the sense-bases. As to the expression, ‘whichever aayatana arises’ (ya.m ya.m aayatana.m uppajjati), the Tiika gives an explanation. At rebirth of the womb-born and the egg-born, only the body-sense among the aayatanas which are sense-bases arises, and for those born in other ways the text has to be applied as is suitable. As we have seen, there are different kinds of birth. Birth is fourfold as egg-born, womb-born, putrescence- (moisture-) born, and of apparitional generation. Devas, for example, are born spontaneously and for them also the other sense-bases, apart from bodysense, can arise at the moment of birth. ********* Conclusion: The rebirth-consciousness experiences the same object as that experienced by the last javana-cittas of the previous life. It is succeeded by the first bhavanga-citta that also experiences the same object. However, in the course of life kamma conditions the experience of other objects through the sense-doors and the mind- door. Kusala kamma and akusala kamma produce the sense-cognitions, such as seeing or hearing, which experience desirable or undesirable objects. Kamma also produces the sense-bases on which the sense- cognitions depend. Without eye-base there could not be seeing. Visible object impinges on the eye-base so that seeing can arise. Seeing is the result of kamma and so is the eyebase. It seems that the eyebase and the other sense-bases belong to us, that they last, at least for a while. In reality they only arise because of conditions for a very short while and then fall away completely. There is nothing left of them when they have fallen away. When we learn more about the intricacy of conditions operating in our daily life, it helps us to think in the correct way about realities. *********** Nina. #79793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 1:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner: To Connie, Sarah, Nina nilovg Dear Han, have a good and fruitful journey. Nina. Op 5-dec-2007, om 3:06 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > But I am going to Yangon from mid-December to > mid-January, and I will not have an access to internet > during the period. #79794 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:08 am Subject: India 4 and musings about stories. nilovg Dear Scott and all, Yesterday's thinking has completely fallen away, there is nothing left of it. I had a mental picture of you and your children going for a nature walk with the dog Flower. You take him out, he must be very excited? But that thinking is no more. I had to go to a funeral service with long speeches, and beautifully dressed up women, elegant hats and jewellery (I felt like a bettler's child, having omaana conceit), but so fragile. They and their husbands, all of our department of foreign affairs, had greatly aged and some of them were walking with great difficulty, with sticks, I could hardly recognize them. Today this story is all gone. Also my discussions with Lodewijk: there is no Nina. What is important now: mindfulness of the naama or ruupa appearing now. It may be thinking and remembering stories, or seeing. This morining I listened to a Thai talk, given in Lumbini, while sitting near the pool that reminds us of the place where the Bodhisatta had ablutions after his birth. --------- Kh Sujin: Nina. #79795 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Glad that you wrote back. I am never really satisfied with "agreeing > to disagree" ;-)) ... S: I feel the same way;-)). .... > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > S: Let's go with MN 19, Dvedhaavitakka Sutta > > > > "Bhikkhus, whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that > > will become the inclination of his mind. If he frequently thinks and > > ponders upon thoughts of renunciation, he has abandoned the thought of > > sensual desire to cultivate the thought of renunciation, and then > his mind > > inclines to thoughts of renunciation. If he frequently thinks and > ponders > > uponj thoughts of non-ill will.....non-cruelty........his mind > inclines to > > thoughts of non-cruelty. > > > > S: The reverse was given too. > > James: I consider this "doing something". Even though it takes place > entirely in the mind, I still consider it "doing something". You must > not consider it doing something because it isn't a physical doing?? .... S: It's not a self or someone setting out to just have good thoughts for the day. If it were so easy, why would there ever be desires, ill-will and cruelty arising with such good intentions? I read the text as indicating that wholesome states of mind accumulate and the reverse for unwholesome states. There are conditions now to reflect on the Dhamma. This inclines the mind to reflect further on Dhamma in future. No self doing anything. .... > James: Okay, thank you for the sutta quotes. I still consider this a > doing of something. I am confused as to why you think it isn't. > After all, the mind isn't naturally going to incline toward thoughts > of renunciation, non-cruelty, etc., there must be an effort for this > to happen. This is Right Effort of the Noble Eightfold Path. Again, > how is this not "doing something"? .... S: The point about the 'doing' comments was to indicate there is no self to do anything. Cittas arise and perform their functions and fall away, never to return. Right effort (of the Path) arises with moments of Right understanding by conditions, not by anyone's will. Hearing, considering and reflecting now on all dhammas as being anatta is a condition for right understanding and right effort to arise, to naturally incline towards wholesomeness without any urging or special intention or desire for such. Are there not times in the day when there has been some wise reflecting and some aspect of the teachings really makes sense without any special trying or doing by James? Metta, Sarah ======= #79796 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. nilovg Dear Elaine, Op 4-dec-2007, om 22:29 heeft shennieca het volgende geschreven: > I think there is a 'Scott'. When you have metta, it is the metta that > have arised in 'you', it is not the metta from another person. --------- N: True, it is not metta of another person. Individual inclinations are not denied. There are different cittas arising because of different conditions for this or that individual. It is helpful to consider that mettaa is a mental factor arising with kusala citta. It arises, and thus, it falls away immediately. When it has fallen away it does not exist any longer. It does not belong to a person, it cannot be manipulated. All such considerations can help us to cling less to the idea of a person who has this or that quality, a person who exists. But as Howard also once explained: there is no person does not mean: there is nothing. Looking forward to what Scott will contribute. All contributions, including yours, are helpful. Nina. #79797 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:52 am Subject: Concentration as proximate cause of understanding. nilovg Dear all, Concentration as proximate cause of understanding has been often discussed here, often quoted. I made a transcript from the audio August 16, A-c, at the end. Kh. Sujin explained as to Concentration as proximate cause of understanding that this is true at the moment of vipassana ~naa.na, the stages of insight knowledge. Samaadhi or ekaggataa cetasika accompanies each citta. When one develops satipatthana, awareness of nama and rupa, the characteristic of samaadhi does not appear yet, only he characteristic of sati. One knows when there is sati and when not. The development of satipatthana is not the same as insight knowledge, but it leads to insight knownledge. Kh Sujin: Jon: why is samaadhi singled out here? Kh Sujin: Samaadhi fousses on one object and pa~n~naa which has been developed understands clearly that one object. The characteristic of samaadhi at the moment of developing satipatthaana is different from the moment a stage of insight is reached.> (end quote) ---------- N: This is in agreement with the fact that the Path factors develop together, they do not develop separately, one after the other. When satipatthana is more developed, so that a stage of insight is reached, the object, a nama or rupa, appears clearly, one at a time, and nama and rupa are not confused. They are clearly distinguished from each other. At that moment samaadhi is also more developed and focusses on one object, a nama or a rupa. It is the proximate cause of vipassana ~naa.na, it conditions it while it arises together with it. It is not so that first concentration has to be developed so that later on insight can arise. This is a misunderstanding of the text. Nina. #79798 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:00 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dacostacharles Hi Alex, I have never heard of Nibbana existing as an element (Nibbana Dhatu). Where <...> While you do have a point in that Nibbana: a)Permanent. b) Paramam Sukham (Ultimate Happiness) c) It exists as an element? (Nibbana Dhatu). I do have a problem with "Self" part. Didn't the Buddha say that "Sabbe Dhamma Anatta" ? If Nibbana is classed as a dhamma then it would be anatta. <....> #79799 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:05 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dacostacharles Hi DC I would say, lying to them-selves. However, it is an ok practice to try and distance your-self from things that arise in your-mind by denying there connection to you as a being. It would not work for me though. I am too aware of my-self's world. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DC Wijeratna Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:55 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy Hi, Charles Great, that is the truth. Only arhants have no-self. Those who talk of anatta while being a puthujjana, are deluded. <...>