#79800 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:22 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dacostacharles Hi Robert, The "Eye of Dharma" refers to just seeing/accepting the path. This includes the 3, or more, turnings of the wheel of Dharma (1. the first teaching, i.e., to the recluses; 2. .). Some Buddhist likes to add one, or more, of the following to quantify "seeing/accepting": 1. Understanding the teachings; 2. Appreciating the benefit of the path; 3. Living according to the path; and 4. Being not so dominated by Self-interest (i.e., TRYing to put morality and compassion first). Charles DaCosta _____ --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > Personally, I only possess the Eye of Dharma and from it I understand its > Relative Truths. ++++++++++++ Dear Charles Could you explain about the Eye of Dhamma. <...> #79801 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:31 am Subject: RE: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" dacostacharles Dear Colette, I can't remember the last time I even herd the names Cheech & Chong, much less there music (may be it was '70 something). I am going to have to search for that record! I have to shy away from terms like Ultimate Reality and Ultimate Truths, because I am still trying to find them. This forces me to fall back on the TAO of Physics and Zen (empty-ness - no - this time I mean space and something else). ME too! Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of colette Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 18:37 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] heresy of instanteneous changing "mind moments" Good Morning Charles, Have you heard the old Cheech & Chong album, cd nowadays, called "Sleeping Beauty"? Yea, I sit at a table very reminiscent of the table you speak of and that table was spoken of in the story of "Sleeping Beauty" by Cheeck & Chong. <...> #79802 From: han tun Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration as proximate cause of understanding. hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your nice post. But may I seek some clarification? In Abhidhammattha Sangaha it is mentioned as follows: Pativeda-lakkhanaa pa~n~naa Visayobhaasana-rasaa Asammoha-upatthaanaa Manasikaara-padatthaanaa Wisdom has the characteristic of penetrating things, Its function is to illuminate the objective field, It is manifested as non-bewilderment, Its proximate cause is wise attention. So, how will you reconcile the above with your statement that samaadhi (concentration) is the proximate cause of pa~n~naa (understanding)? Secondly, am I correct to understand that samaadhi during the development of satipatthaana and the samaadhi at the moment of insight knowledge are different? If so, can you kindly elaborate further on this point? Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #79803 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:12 am Subject: Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. scottduncan2 Dear Elaine, Thanks for the reply: E: I read your post about Flower. It is nice." Scott: Thanks. E: "I think there is a 'Scott'. When you have metta, it is the metta that have arised in 'you', it is not the metta from another person." Scott: This is hard to communicate, and, I fear, even harder to understand. We both 'think' there is a 'Scott'. That is where he is though, only in those thoughts. So, nowhere, really. Thoughts are intangible. There is constant experience for me, as there is for you. This appears so compellingly like something coherent. It is not. But it seems so real that we even refer to it using the name someone gave this concept at birth. The complexity of each moment - the khandhas interacting - gives rise to the illusion of Scott. I ponder this. I consider this. No one but a Buddha teaches this, as far as I know. I take the fact of impermanence to be one of the deeper teachings of a Buddha. I take this to be true right down to the moment. I take this to be true for naama as well as ruupa. If these arise and fall away, if these condition the ongoing process of arising and falling away, then there is consistency and each moment has elements of the last developing from moment to moment. 'Scott' can't exist under these circumstances. These circumstances condition the belief in the existence of 'Scott'. There is mettaa for sure. Mettaa arises for sure. And in a complex context and for sure with thoughts of Beings as object. The mettaa is real. 'A Being' is just shorthand. Mettaa arises, but not in 'me'. Its not 'mine', even if I think about Scott being kind. Its just mettaa. Just during a moment of consciousness and then can be condition for subsequent moments and actions. As Nina agreed, there is mettaa in the so-called stream I could call 'mine', but the mettaa is not 'mine'. It is mettaa. It is not mettaa that has an effect anywhere else but in the 'stream' in which is arises. This is why we are all so totally alone. E: "The 'no Scott', 'no Flower' view is very extreme, imo. I think, a person must have love and compassion for him/herself before he/she can give love to others. In Buddhism, it is not wrong to have love for ourselves..." Scott: I find this difficult to respond to, Elaine. I don't find the view extreme, whereas you do. I still experience Flower and a moment or two of kindness. This must simply reflect different conditions. The fact that the ease with which I understand something you can't wrap your head around cannot be transferred is rather sobering. I'm afraid the idea that a person 'must have love and compassion for him/herself' just doesn't take hold in me. I don't even think about it. I'm conceited enough. Like Queen Mallika. I think she was 'correct' because it was an honest and truthful answer. Ignorance and delusion condition my 'love for myself' but its not mettaa or karunaa, as far as I can tell. Sincerely, Scott. #79804 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy truth_aerator ,Hi Charles --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > I have never heard of Nibbana existing as an element (Nibbana Dhatu). Where > <...> > In the suttas there is "nibbana dhatu". For ex: In the Itivuttaka the Buddha says: "There are, O Bhikkhus, two elements of Nibbâna. What two? "The element of Nibbâna with the basis (upâdi) still remaining and that without basis. "Herein, O Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu is an Arahant, one who has destroyed the Defilements, who has lived the life, done what was to be done, laid aside the burden, who has attained his goal, who has destroyed the fetters of existence, who, rightly understanding, is delivered. His five sense-organs still remain, and as he is not devoid of them he undergoes the pleasant and the unpleasant experiences. That destruction of his attachment, hatred and delusion is called the 'Element of Nibbâna with the basis still remaining.' "What O Bhikkus, is 'the Element of Nibbâna without the basis'? "Herein, O Bhikkhus, a Bhikkhu is an Arahant ... is delivered. In this very life all his sensations will have no delight for him, they will be cooled. This is called 'the Element of Nibbâna without a basis. [8]" http://www.bps.lk/bp_library/bp_102s/page_33.html Lots of Metta, Alex #79805 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:38 am Subject: Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > E: "I think there is a 'Scott'. When you have metta, it is the metta > that have arised in 'you', it is not the metta from another person." > > Scott: This is hard to communicate, and, I fear, even harder to > understand. We both 'think' there is a 'Scott'. That is where he is > though, only in those thoughts. So, nowhere, really. Thoughts are > intangible. > > There is constant experience for me, as there is for you. This > appears so compellingly like something coherent. It is not. But it > seems so real that we even refer to it using the name someone gave > this concept at birth. >>> Your Kamma is your Kamma, not Elaine's. When "you" die, it isn't Elaine's Kamma that is going to determine "Scott's" rebirth. If you put your finger into a fire, YOU, not Elaine, is going to get burned. You can't read Elaine's thoughts, Elaine can't read you thoughts. However you can read your own thoughts and so can Elaine. >>> The complexity of each moment - the khandhas > interacting - gives rise to the illusion of Scott. I ponder this. I > consider this. But do you FEEL IT? <>>> No one but a Buddha teaches this, as far as I know. >>>> What about Atheistic Materialists who consider a human being to be nothing but a machine without any "ghost" in it? They too consider causality, impermanence, etc. Lots of Metta, Alex #79806 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 12:44 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhist Boomers - free of fun? upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/4/2007 11:34:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes with regard to finding Dhamma within other religions, especially one's birth religion: > S: This is interesting. When we were in India, a Thai friend said that she > thought it must be difficult for someone brought up in another culture to > understand Buddhism. There was a hint (possibly imagined on my part), that > those of us who were not 'born Buddhists' could not appreciate the > teachings in the way that a 'born Buddhist' could. I was rather surprised > and responded that wrong views and ignorance are just the same regardless > of the tradition one has been brought up in. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sounds to me that your friend may have been caught in some mild, well-intentioned conceit. ;-) ----------------------------------------------------- I don't see any distinction. A lot of what is taken for being saddha (faith) or taking refuge in the Triple Gem amongst Buddhists is really attachment and ignorance. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. In fact, much of what appears as wholesome in us is at least tainted by (and/or mixed in with) unwholesome beliefs, inclinations, and motives. We are complex bags of diamonds and dirt! ;-)) As I see it, we need to use pickaxes and also fine-tooth combs to sift the good from the bad. ------------------------------------------------------ I think it's an advantage to really question what one hears and reads. In Jon's TV interview, he was also asked 'what is different for foreigners who study Buddhism?'. I think he also responded to the effect that the problems are the same. The trappings may be different, but the realities and the 3 fires are just the same. No difference in the Path. This is why the Buddha's teachings are universal truths for all, regardless of background and interests. ... ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sometimes one is actually at a disadvantage being born into a religion. There is some validity to the maxim that "Familiarity breeds contempt". And if not contempt, then an illusion of depth of knowledge when there really is none. Part of the reason may be that the familiarity may actually be superficial and that one knows much less of the riches in a religion due to cultural overlay and to satisfaction with rite and ritual empty of genuine content. ======================= With metta, Howard #79807 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:46 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (71) nichiconn dear friends, Part 13 14. Ti.msanipaato 1. Subhaajiivakambavanikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 382. "Ki.m te idha saarasammata.m, ku.napapuuramhi susaanava.d.dhane; bhedanadhamme ka.levare, ya.m disvaa vimano udikkhasi. 380. What is it that you approve of as essential here in the body, which is full of corpses, filling the cemetery, destined to break up? What is it that you have seen when you look at me, being out of your mind? txt: Eva.m dhuttakena attano adhippaaye pakaasite therii sariirasabhaavavibhaavanena ta.m tattha vicchindentii "ki.m te idhaa"ti gaathamaaha. Tassattho- aavuso suva.n.nakaaraputta, kesaadiku.napapuure ekantena bhedanadhamme susaanava.d.dhane, idha imasmi.m kaayasa~n~nite asucika.levare ki.m naama tava saaranti sammata.m sambhaavita.m, ya.m disvaa vimano a~n~natarasmi.m aaramma.ne vigatamanasa"nkappo, ettheva vaa avimano somanassiko hutvaa udikkhasi, ta.m mayha.m kathehiiti. 380. When his intention had been made clear by that rogue, the therii interrupting him there with an explanation of the true nature of her body, spoke the verse beginning, What is it here that you [approve of]? The meaning of that [verse] is: "Friend, son of the goldsmith, being completely full of corpses such as the hair of the head, filling the cemetery, destined to break up here, in this so-called body there is dirt. What is the essential thing you approve of, honour, in this body? What have you seen, being out of your mind (vimano), with the thoughts of your mind gone away to a certain object? Or, in that context, if you are not confused (avimano), being happy, [what do you see] when you look at me? Tell me that. Ta.m sutvaa dhuttako ki~ncaapi tassaa ruupa.m caaturiyasobhita.m, pa.thamadassanato pana pa.t.thaaya yasmi.m di.t.thipaate pa.tibaddhacitto, tameva apadisanto "akkhiini ca tuuriyaarivaa"ti-aadimaaha. Kaama~ncaaya.m therii su.t.thu sa.myatataaya santindriyaa, taaya thiravippasannasommasantanayananipaatesu kammaanubhaavanipphannesu pasannapa~ncappasaadapa.tima.n.ditesu nayanesu labbhamaane pabhaavisi.t.thacaaturiye di.t.thipaate, yasmaa saya.m caritahaavabhaavavilaasaadiparikappava~ncito so dhutto jaato, tasmaassa di.t.thiraago savisesa.m vepulla.m agamaasi. When the rogue heard this, although her body was [not] skilfully adorned, even so, form his firts sight [of her], at a glance, he was enamoured, and referring to that, he spoke [the verse] beginning Your eyes are indeed like a doe's. And having received enjoyment from that therii whose senses were tranquil and very well controlled through a glance of her eyes that were adorned with the five sorts of clarity, because of her glance that was gentle, clear, and firm, since he deceived himself with the assumption she was being coquettish with her beauty, there therefore arose in that rogue the wrong view of passion, and it became fully developed. verse: 383. "Akkhiini ca tuuriyaariva, kinnariyaariva pabbatantare; tava me nayanaani dakkhiya, bhiyyo kaamaratii pava.d.dhati. 381. Your eyes are indeed like those of a doe, like those of a kinnarii inside a mountain. Seeing your eyes, my delight in sensual pleasures increases all the more. txt: Tattha akkhiini ca tuuriyaarivaati tuuri vuccati migii, ca-saddo nipaatamatta.m, migacchaapaaya viya te akkhiiniiti attho. "Koriyaarivaa"ti vaa paa.li, ku~ncakaarakukku.tiyaati vutta.m hoti. Kinnariyaariva pabbatantareti pabbatakucchiya.m vicaramaanaaya kinnarivanitaaya viya ca te akkhiiniiti attho. Tava me nayanaani dakkhiyaati tava vuttagu.navisesaani nayanaani disvaa, bhiyyo uparuupari me kaamaabhirati pava.d.dhati. 381. There, your eyes are indeed like those of doe means: doe (tuuri) is said [for] doe (migii). The word ca [untranslated] is only a particle. Your eyes are like a fawn's. That is the meaning. Or there is a reading: "like those of a hen" (koriyaa-r-iva). This means: like those of a cackling hen. Like those of a kinnari (kinnariyaa-r-iva) inside a mountain (pabbat'-antare) means: your eyes are like a kinnarii woman wandering in a mountain cave. Seeing your eyes, my [delight ... increases] means: seeing your eyes which have the excellent qualities mentioned. My delighting in sensual pleasures increases all the more (bhiyyo), more and more (uparuupari). ===to be continued, connie #79808 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:47 am Subject: Perfections Corner (45) nichiconn Dear All, This is the end of Chapter 7: The Perfection of Truthfulness, taken from the book "The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket and translated by Nina van Gorkom. Questions, comments, or different opinions are welcome. ------------------------------ It is difficult to know the truth, also in worldly matters. For example, when we hear news through different media about an event that occurred near to us or far away, it is difficult to find out whether it is true. What we hear is sometimes not true, but we take it for the truth. Our confusion, our defilements make it most difficult to know what is true. To know realities as they are is even more difficult than knowing the truth of worldly matters. We should see the value of truthfulness, including sincerity with regard to ourselves. We should develop truthfulness in action, speech and thoughts, even in seemingly unimportant matters. This means, truthfulness in speech, also when it regards appointments or promises. One may believe that these matters are unimportant. We should know what type of citta arises when we feel that with regard to unimportant matters we do not need to be truthful to act in accordance with our speech and thoughts. The citta of each person is most intricate, and if there is no pa~n~naa accompanying sati, it is impossible to understand that even a slight degree of akusala that arises is conditioned by our accumulations. Defilements have been accumulated not only during this life but also in past lives. Our life today is conditioned by past lives and the accumulation of defilements will continue from life to life. Someone who earnestly develops pa~n~naa should not only be intent on knowing the truth, but he should also strive after the eradication of his defilements, so that he is truthful in action and speech. He should be steady and firm in the development of kusala, including the following perfection: the perfection of determination, adi.t.thaana paaramii. === connie #79809 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 5:57 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy rjkjp1 Dear Charles thanks, do you have any references about this? Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Hi Robert, > > > > The "Eye of Dharma" refers to just seeing/accepting the path. > #79810 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration as proximate cause of understanding. nilovg Dear Han, I am grateful for all observations, because I keep on considering. I do not pretend that I understand all. Op 5-dec-2007, om 13:59 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Wisdom has the characteristic of penetrating things, > Its function is to illuminate the objective field, > It is manifested as non-bewilderment, > Its proximate cause is wise attention. ------- N: In this text there is an explanation of pa~n~naa in general. We also read that wise attention is the proximate cause for kusala, thus, for all kinds of kusala. ---------- > > H: So, how will you reconcile the above with your > statement that samaadhi (concentration) is the > proximate cause of pa~n~naa (understanding)? -------- N: there are other texts where it is said: who is concentrated knows things as they really are. Also this is true. And this applies especially to insight wisdom. --------- > H: Secondly, am I correct to understand that samaadhi > during the development of satipatthaana and the > samaadhi at the moment of insight knowledge are > different? If so, can you kindly elaborate further on > this point? ------- N: I think they are of different degrees. When one begins to develop satipatthana, one confuses or mixes nama and rupa. Samaadhi is not strong yet, not being focussed to just this nama or that rupa. The object does not appear clearly as it is yet. This can change. As understanding develops also samadhi develops. And this can also be said of the other Path factors: viriya and sati and the other factors become stronger. They arise together and thus they condition one another. The term yuganadha was used: development as a pair. Here this is used in the case of lokiya dhammas, pa~n~naa is not lokuttara. In the Patisambhida magga (this is for Tep), Ch XI, Coupling, yuganadha (coupling) pertains to lokuttara citta. This is more complicated and I have to look at the Co which I have in Thai. Did I elaborate enough? Nina. #79811 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:16 am Subject: Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Hey, Neighbour. Thanks for the reply. Let's go for coffee. You can dump yours on my head. There will be the experience of heat. We can laugh and discuss it, and you can tell me how it was 'me' who felt it and I can annoy you with my own views. It'll be fun. There is constant experience for me A: "Your Kamma is your Kamma, not Elaine's. When 'you' die, it isn't Elaine's Kamma that is going to determine 'Scott's' rebirth." Scott: Uh huh. A: "...But do you FEEL IT?" Scott: There is experience, but no experiencer. A: "What about Atheistic Materialists who consider a human being to be nothing but a machine without any "ghost" in it? They too consider causality, impermanence, etc." Scott: What about them? Are they fun at parties? No, really, I don't care about them. I'm more into the Surrealists, when it comes to worldly schools of thought. The Atheistic Materialists have a cool label though - it would make a great name for a band. Sincerely, Scott. #79812 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dcwijeratna Hi Charles, I think dhamma-cakkhu refers only to 'seeing'. If you can see there is no question of acceptance. You can accept without seeing. That is belief. Seeing is knowledge. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79813 From: han tun Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 7:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Concentration as proximate cause of understanding. hantun1 Dear Nina, Yes, you have elaborated satisfactorily. It is much more clear now. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Did I elaborate enough? > #79814 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 9:31 am Subject: Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Hey, Neighbour. Thanks for the reply. Let's go for coffee. You can dump yours on my head. >>> If I were into Hockey, then I'd do that. hahahahah! J/k. >>> > and I can annoy you with my own views. >>> No. Just discussion. Q&A sessions can be very important you know, and somebody has to play the "Devil's advocate" . >> > There is constant experience for me >>>> But didn't you say that > Scott: There is experience, but no experiencer. > ??? > A: "Your Kamma is your Kamma, not Elaine's. When 'you' die, it isn't > Elaine's Kamma that is going to determine 'Scott's' rebirth." > > Scott: Uh huh. >>> What I tried to say is that THERE IS INDUVIDIALITY (atleast spatio- temporal) even in the Arahants (also they don't have or create new "personality"). > A: "...But do you FEEL IT?" > > Scott: There is experience, but no experiencer. >>> So if experience is DIFFERENT every second. Then how can a person, lets call him John, recollect the past and say "It was me, as opposed to Bob who experienced this and this at such and such a time" ? How is the stream of totally different and instantly changing cittas considered to be ONE stream? Ex: Devadatta & Buddha or person A & B. > A: "What about Atheistic Materialists who consider a human being to be > nothing but a machine without any "ghost" in it? They too consider > causality, impermanence, etc." > > Scott: What about them? Are they fun at parties? No, really, I don't > care about them. I'm more into the Surrealists, when it comes to > worldly schools of thought. The Atheistic Materialists have a cool > label though - it would make a great name for a band. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. >>> You haven't answered the question (which actually can be divided in 2 or 3): a) How is Buddhist Anatta different from Materialistic conception of "No soul". b) How is Anicca (especially in Early Buddhism where it refered to lit. aging & lit. death) is different from lets say Morticians or worldly thinkers who think about impermanence, etc? Lots of Metta, Alex #79815 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 10:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hi, Andrew I got your e-m yesterday. Some of the thing I mentioned are just my thoughts, in the sense that I myself are not sure whether I have grasped their meaning. Now that you have raised few issues we'll go one by one. I dashed off the earlier e-m from what I remember. You wrote: " AT: Agreed, there is no certainty but the possibility (and in some cases maybe even probability) of being right exists. As I understand the theory of Abhidhamma, nama and rupa are intertwined/ interdependent in our plane of existence. And it is nama that experiences, not rupa. And nama *creates* rupa. In ethology, one way of making inferences about animals' subjective experiences is physiology e.g. heart rate and hormone levels. These can be taken to indicate a state of stress/anxiety or sexual urge etc. It is the experience (e.g. seeing an approaching predator) that produces a physiological response (e.g. increased heart rate). I don't see the Abhidhamma theorising about experience A can condition the arising of experience B as something of a totally different category to ethologists drawing inferences from observable behaviour. It has validity even though we can't be certain.======== DC: AT: "Agreed, there is no certainty but the possibility (and in some cases maybe even probability) of being right exists." Yes since it is a probability, there is a probability that it is wrong. So there is no knowledge. The Buddha rejected that kind of thing. For example, see Canki Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaaya. MN 95. That is good enough for normal everyday life. But not when you are after knowledge. DC: Re. "As I understand the theory of Abhidhamma, nama and rupa are intertwined/ interdependent in our plane of existence. And it is nama that experiences, not rupa. And nama *creates* rupa." Yes, that is where Abhidhamma is not in accordance with the Dhamma-the Buddha's teaching. In Dhamma, there is Naamaruupa (NR). It is a single unit. You cannot separate naama from ruupa. Because we human beings can't see it (naama). I don't know whether even arahants can. It is like two dimensions of some thing. For different puposes of exposition the Buddha analyses a human being in different ways, for example, pancuppaddhanakkhandha (PPK). Actually, I think, Naama refers to the human beings ability to cognize. Normally, in PPK we have 4 naama-dhammas. But there are places in the suttas where manasikaara also is added to it. DC: "And nama *creates* rupa." Well vi~n~naa.na.m paccayaa naamaruupa paccayaa vi~n~naana.m. (DO). So it is not a one-way street. {Consciousness conditions the mindbody and vice versa). DC: "Regarding the heart rate of animals. That is a deduction based on observations. And no problem about it. It happens to us also." There is no need to postulate a mind for that purpose. That can lead us to many difficulties. A dog's smell is highly developed. Our not so. A bat can see in the dark and so on. DC: Abhidhamma really is a misguided attempt to explain the Dhamma, and a total failure. In Abhidhamma, citta, cetasika, ruupa and Nibbana are all paramatthadhammas. What is it that is common about this lot to be classed together? citta, cetasika and ruupa we expereince in sa"nsaara, nibbaana we don't. But since they are all paramattha dhammas sa"nsaara is same as nibbaana!!! This citta here is a mere name. Citta always arises with at least some cetasikas. You can't separate them. So citta is really another name. It is attaa. That is why abhidhamma marks the beginning of what is called the absolutist tendencies. Today, in the scholarly world nobody takes these things seriously except as later "development/corruptions" of the teaching of the Buddha. This is all very difficult stuff. Please think about them carefully. I like to carry on this discussion. Kind regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna ----- Original Message ---- From: Andrew To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2007 3:57:52 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. Hi DC Thank you for a very stimulating post. Not boring at all! I am very interested in seeing your point of view on this. It is fresh to DSG. At least, I cannot recall these matters being raised by anyone else before. I have a few more comments and questions which I will snip and interpose below. No need to respond to those that don't interest you or aren't relevant. --- In dhammastudygroup@ yahoogroups. com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > DC: Khanhas can be observed in oneself. But only ruupa in the case of others (including animals), I think. Of the five khandhas--ruupa, vedanaa, sa~n~naa, sa"nkhaara, vin~n~naa.na- -only the first is observable in others. We cannot observe the last four-they are connected with the mind. In this case, all we do is drawing inferences from their observable behaviour. And this could be right or wrong. There is no certainty. AT: Agreed, there is no certainty but the possibility (and in some cases maybe even probability) of being right exists. As I understand the theory of Abhidhamma, nama and rupa are intertwined/ interdependent in our plane of existence. And it is nama that experiences, not rupa. And nama *creates* rupa. In ethology, one way of making inferences about animals' subjective experiences is physiology e.g. heart rate and hormone levels. These can be taken to indicate a state of stress/anxiety or sexual urge etc. It is the experience (e.g. seeing an approaching predator) that produces a physiological response (e.g. increased heart rate). I don't see the Abhidhamma theorising about experience A can condition the arising of experience B as something of a totally different category to ethologists drawing inferences from observable behaviour. It has validity even though we can't be certain. > DC: Anatta is not a characteristic of naama-ruupa, that puthujjana can see. It can be seen only by the ariyans. For us there is attaa. That is what we experience. AT: Yes, that is what I experience too (as far as I know what I experience). I do not experience germs but I know that people with microscopes can experience them and know about them. And my knowing about *that* affects my behaviour in the world. So, is there not benefit for those who do not experience to pay heed to the behaviour of those who do? That is why the Buddha taught, is it not? DC: ... This is why I mentioned that it is silly to talk of anatta. The Buddha uses only a normal rational argument to say that there is nothing other than the five khandhas. An ariya is able to see that there is nothing other than the five khandhas anywhere in the universe. In one go both atta and Brahma are gone. The Buddha is only a Teacher. I agree with you not only anatta, the four noble truths and DO are all interpretations. AT: DC, when you say "interpretations" , are you referring to the limitations of language? An ariya can see the khandhas, but as soon as he opens his mouth to describe them, there is no seeing, only interpreting or modelling with concepts. Does anyone on DSG dispute that? I think it is a point of general agreement, but if somebody disagrees, I would love them to jump in now and say why. DC: ... [But I am certain of one thing, all those people who talk about anatta and abhidhamma and so on are only displaying their ignorance--delusion (moha, avijjaa)] AT: One sutta reference that is often raised to argue that lay people should consider deep teachings like anatta is in the Samyutta Nikaya (Mahavagga) when the Buddha addresses Dhammadinna and 500 merchants thus: "Therefore, you should train yourselves thus: 'From time to time we will enter and dwell upon those discourses spoken by the Tathagata that are deep, deep in meaning, supramundane, dealing with emptiness.'" DC, do you have a different interpretation of the above? Why would the Buddha say that to lay people? It *seems* to contradict your own point of view, does it not? Thanks again for your discussion. Best wishes Andrew #79816 From: "shennieca" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 10:04 am Subject: Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. shennieca Hi Alex, Thanks for your e-m. Alex: What about Atheistic Materialists who consider a human being to be nothing but a machine without any "ghost" in it? They too consider causality, impermanence, etc. Elaine: The words "ghost" and "machine" reminded me of a Japanese anime that I've watched some time ago, called 'Ghost in a shell' and 'Stand Alone Complex'. It's about robots and machines that are sentient and they have some kind of soul thingy in it. It's very interesting. (sorry, off-topic!) Imo, different people with different tendencies will understand mundane non-self differently but I'm very sure that the non-self that has no dispute whatsoever, is the supra-mundane kind - like seawater that tastes the same. I do not know what is the real supramundane anatta and I think there is no point in trying to make others understand. Also, in Theravada Buddhism, the ideology is `saving ourselves first before trying to save the others', isn't it? I am sure we have good intentions when we write our replies, and good intentions are All that matters. One of my favourite Dhammapada verses is this one: Mind is the forerunner of all evil states. Mind is their chief, mind-made are they, If with an impure mind, one speaks or acts, Then suffering follows one, like the cart-wheel that follows the hoof of the ox. Mind is the forerunner of all good states. Mind is their chief, mind-made are they, If with a pure mind, one speaks or acts, Then happiness follows one, like a shadow that never leaves. May we be well and happy. May we be free from all mental and physical sufferings. With metta, Elaine #79817 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 10:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas. moellerdieter Dear Nina ..and Elaine , I find your change of thread a good idea of a new topic , Nina. Talking about our understanding of the meaning of suttas ..the commentaries wellcome if necessary.. you wrote: 'The Co states that for the beginner pa~n`naa is weak so he can fall down.' D: the sutta refers to the Noble Ones (Ariya Puggala) vs the wordlings.. call the latter beginners , would distinguish them of the first of the group of eight, the Sotipatti-magga.. Nina: I like to read about the complaints how difficult the Path is, but it can be done. D: it gives some comfort in respect to our own difficulties, doesn't it? ;-) Nina: The Net of Death can only be broken by the arahat, and he also must develop insight to the full, not only calm. I have more on the co (in Thai) to the pa~n~nasutta. Noble silence is the fourfold jhaana D: I would agree to 'The Net of Death can only be FULLY broken by the arahat, as it already in decay in case of the streamenterer, already destined for full enlightenment. However the statement 'the arahat... also must develop insight to the full, not only calm' seems to me involve some misunderstandings(?) : the Arahat is not supposed to develop anything anymore..he has reached the other shore , the holy live fullfilled , can go wherever he wants to .. not carrying the raft anymore .. I assume by 'Noble silence ' you refer to : 'Yet what is difficult to attain they attain, Those devoted to stilling the mind. For them both day and night The mind delights in meditation."It is difficult, Lord, to concentrate the mind!" (?) Stilling the mind relates to the 5 hindrances ..you may remember the simile of water in a pot .. the ground cannot be clearly seen There is no real insight possible when the mind is not at peace (the monkey), whether we are talking about samma sati or samma samadhi. The issue of meditation.. ;-) In case of disagreements we may compare with the commentaries , having as well the translation in mind , Elaine was so kind to provide (SN 2.6 Kamada Sutta, Kamada's Lament (excerpt)Translated from the Pali by Andrew Olendzki PTS: S i 48 CDB i 142) with Metta Dieter #79818 From: "shennieca" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 11:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas. shennieca Hi Dieter, Nina, all, This topic is interesting. It is the first time I hear anything like this from Nina. Nina: I like to read about the complaints how difficult the Path is, but it can be done. Elaine: I too believe that it can be done. With metta, Elaine #79819 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 11:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas. nilovg Dear Dieter, I will give more answers, but have to correct something. Op 5-dec-2007, om 19:26 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > Nina: The Net of Death can only be broken by the arahat, and he > also must develop insight to the full, not only calm. ------- N: you are right. I meant: he must have developed insight to the full. Nina. #79820 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 11:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. nilovg Dear Scott, This may also be helpful to Lodewijk. I especially like what I highlighted. Op 5-dec-2007, om 14:12 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > This is hard to communicate, and, I fear, even harder to > understand. We both 'think' there is a 'Scott'. That is where he is > though, only in those thoughts. So, nowhere, really. Thoughts are > intangible. > > There is constant experience for me, as there is for you. This > appears so compellingly like something coherent. It is not. But it > seems so real that we even refer to it using the name someone gave > this concept at birth. The complexity of each moment - the khandhas > interacting - gives rise to the illusion of Scott. I ponder this. I > consider this. No one but a Buddha teaches this, as far as I know. ------- N: As you say, hard to communicate. Lodewijk said: but you can't live in this way repeating that the car is not in the garage and that I do not use a car. Or that Flower does not exist. You give it food and let it out every day, Lodewijk said. He wonders why it is useful to repeat that so and so does not exist. At the same time, he says, he understands in theory anatta. We discussed that in the street we watch out for potholes, so that we do not fall in. But here is the role of sa~n~naa that remembers former experiences. Anyway, I sent him your post to his computer. We each have our desk in different rooms. Nina. #79821 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 11:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas. moellerdieter Hi Elaine, Nina , all... you wrote: This topic is interesting. It is the first time I hear anything like this from Nina. Nina: I like to read about the complaints how difficult the Path is, but it can be done. Elaine: I too believe that it can be done. ' D: talking about difficulties .. nice reminder to all of us seems to me this famous statement from Saint Augustine: '...give me chastity and continence ... but not yet ..' ;-) with Metta Dieter #79822 From: "anna bu" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3rd noble truth annabu12@... It is said that only a perfectly awakened buddha is capable of knowing the working of karma in full detail. However, there were many disciples of buddha who had no knowledge of their previous lives but still were able to get to the level of arhatship. Does anyone here know any teacher who claims to be an arhat. I think it would be great to ask such a person what drastic change in perception happened when s/he achieved nirvana. I could not find 'apannaka sutta' on the internet; can anyone please suggest a translation which is available freely on the web. Yes, reading about the 4 solaces which buddha told the kalamas was a pleasure. anna. On Dec 4, 2007 4:50 PM, Phil wrote: > > I hope Anna will have a look too. So many people get tied up in knots > about > whether there could possibly be rebirth or not when they first hear > about Buddhism, and they never get further. Telling them about the > teaching in these suttas would help them see get by that, maybe. > > metta, > > phil > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, > DC Wijeratna > > wrote: > > > > Dear Phil > > > > Read the famous kaalaana sutta and the apannaka sutta of MN. #79823 From: han tun Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 3:24 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3rd noble truth hantun1 Dear Anna, If you are looking for MN 60 Apannaka sutta: The Inquiring Teaching, please click on the following link. http://mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima2/060-apanna\ ka-e1.html Han --- anna bu wrote: I could not find 'apannaka sutta' on the internet; can anyone please suggest a translation which is available freely on the web. #79824 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 4:50 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: It's not a self or someone setting out to just have good thoughts for > the day. If it were so easy, why would there ever be desires, ill-will and > cruelty arising with such good intentions? > > I read the text as indicating that wholesome states of mind accumulate and > the reverse for unwholesome states. There are conditions now to reflect on > the Dhamma. This inclines the mind to reflect further on Dhamma in future. > No self doing anything. I see what you are saying. You are saying that one cannot "will" insight to arise. Of course I agree with that. I could no more "will" insight to arise than I could "will" horns to grow on my head. However, one does "will" to incline the mind more toward thoughts of goodwill than thoughts of ill-will. Sure, thoughts of ill-will will still arise, but the effort is to have them arise less and thoughts of goodwill arise more. This is done with meditation, mindfulness, guarding the sense doors, reading the Dhamma, staying in the company of good friends, etc. And, these are all activities which one chooses to do or not to do. You have a choice. Non-self doesn't have anything to do with it. You are taking the teaching of anatta to an extreme which doesn't correspond with what the Buddha taught. Not only that, you are being hypocritical because you imply that your participation in DSG isn't the result of the choice to "do something" to increase wisdom, and yet you do it to increase wisdom (for yourself and others). You also imply that because you don't meditate or purposefully direct thoughts toward goodwill, that you are free from self view. And of course we both know that you are not free from self view. You are being like a professed vegetarian eating a hamburger ;-)). You put Buddhist practitioners in a no-win situation because your presentation of Buddhist practice is contradictory. Metta, James #79825 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas. dcwijeratna Dear Dieter, I think there are two ways: One through the jhaanas; that is achieving nirodha samaapatti, the other is through 'vipassanaa'--really, samatha and vipassanaa. But finally which ever way one proceeds, the result is the same. "akuppaa me ceto vimutti." But the vipassana has nothing to do with what is now generally called vipassanaa. Or the abhidhammika analysis. It is direct pereception. Regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79826 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:22 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dcwijeratna Hi Charles, The issue you raise is interesting. Here is what I think of it. It has to be real in some sense. It is 'tatha'; think of the epithet Tathaagata for the Buddha. It is the unconditioned. It is beyond description in any human (or divine) language. The technical term is 'ineffable'. We puthujjanas can't talk about it. It is where there is no differentiation. No attaa. No you and me. Well you have heard of the famous discussions about Nibban being described in negative thoughts. Regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79827 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. dcwijeratna Hi shenieca, Anatta is no-atta or not-atta. How do you get to know what is not? D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79828 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3rd noble truth dcwijeratna To: anna bu I think the answer would be "no change in perception" except that they would look at any interaction with the world as just an interaction and would not react to it lobha dosa, and moha. As long as an arahant lives in this world, he perceives just like a human being. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79829 From: "shennieca" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 6:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. shennieca Hi DC, It is me, Elaine! shennieca is my yahoo ID and e-m address. :-)) How do we get to know what is not? Like not-atta or no-atta? I think, by observing and realizing that all mental and physical phenomena are anicca, impermanent? Actually what is meant by "atta"? By knowing what is "atta", maybe I can understand anatta better. :D :-)) With metta, Elaine --------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Hi shenieca, > > Anatta is no-atta or not-atta. How do you get to know what is not? > > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna > #79830 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 7:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. dcwijeratna Hi Elaine, That exactly is the point I was trying to bring about. Atta is really the name given to our capacity to know and feel. Atta is a mere name. There is no substance in it. Our knowing and feeling is changing all the time. But human beings can't see that and think that it is permanent. This arises because of Sa~n~naakkhandha. Human beings cannot perceive what is not there. Both atta and anatta are sa~n~naa. When we go beyond that we become arahants. To talk about atta and anatta is generally a waste of time. Atta is at least derived from our experience. But anatta is just negation of atta. [This was the purpose of my question] Since we have no experience, we will give it various interpretations based on our imagination. Come back of this. See whether my rational is sound? D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79831 From: "R. K. Wijayaratne" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 2:16 pm Subject: The Thoroughbred * rwijayaratne Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammâ Sambuddhassa! <...> Taken from AccessToInsight.org1 Translated from Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu SUMMARY: In the same way that a king's thoroughbred steed is invaluable to a king because of its a) great beauty, b) great strength and c) great speed, in the same way a monk is worthy of hospitality, offerings, respect and is an unmatched field of merit for the world (for the laity to gain merit by making offerings to him, revering him, etc) because of his a) virtue (sila), b) persistence for abandoning unskilful (bad) qualities and developing skilful (good) qualities, and c) wisdom and discernment regarding the true nature of existence, i.e. having a constant awareness of the Four Noble Truths.3 THE THOROUGHBRED Anguttara Nikâya 3.94 - Ajaniya Sutta2 "Endowed with three characteristics, a king's excellent thoroughbred steed is worthy of a king, the wealth of a king, and counts as one of the king's own limbs. Which three? There is the case where a king's excellent thoroughbred steed is consummate in beauty, consummate in strength, and consummate in speed. Endowed with these three characteristics is a king's excellent thoroughbred steed worthy of a king, the wealth of a king, and counts as one of the king's own limbs. "In the same way, a monk endowed with these three qualities is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, an unexcelled field of merit for the world. Which three? There is the case where a monk is consummate in beauty, consummate in strength, and consummate in speed. "And how is a monk consummate in beauty? There is the case where a monk is virtuous. He dwells restrained in accordance with the Patimokkha, consummate in his behavior & sphere of activity. He trains himself, having undertaken the training rules, seeing danger in the slightest fault. This is how a monk is consummate in beauty. "And how is a monk consummate in strength? There is the case where a monk keeps his persistence aroused for abandoning unskillful mental qualities and taking on skillful mental qualities. He is steadfast, solid in his effort, not shirking his duties with regard to skillful mental qualities. This is how a monk is consummate in strength. "And how is a monk consummate in speed? There is the case where a monk discerns as it actually is present that 'This is stress.' He discerns as it actually is present that 'This is the origination of stress.' He discerns as it actually is present that 'This is the cessation of stress.' He discerns as it actually is present that 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'3 This is how a monk is consummate in speed. "Endowed with these three qualities is a monk worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, an unexcelled field of merit for the world." Notes 1. More suttas from AcessToInsight.org can be found here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sutta.html 2. This sutta can be found in full here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.094.than.html 3. This refers to the Four Noble Truths, see http://www.vihara.org.au/go?to=fourtruths <....> #79832 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 9:51 am Subject: Direct from the Tower of Babel Your Looney Tunes ksheri3 DC, What can't you understand? ----- > Thanks for your response. > But I can't understand the following: > ..........."> DC: Anatta is not a characteristic of naama-ruupa, that puthujjana > can see. It can be seen only by the ariyans. For us there is > attaa. > > colette: pardon me, did somebody just call for the bottle with the > gennii in it or did they call for the bottle that they want to put a > gennii in? > > You have said "...can be seen only by..." Hold it right there. <....> > > For us there is Puthajjana, there is naama-rupa, there is anatta, etc. > > I can't find it in myself to cow-tow to an obsolete ideal such as the > Theravadans in their quest to maintain a Caste System and a control > of all wealth while excluding poverty from their ranks and forcing it > upon other sentient beings. We can certainly go on an offensive to > attack the validity of a Theravadan ideal HOWEVER, that is outside > the actual goal I intended on achieving here. So let's view it as > water flowing beneath the bridge."-------------- > > DC: What you have written here has no relevance to the subject. colette: it most certainly is totally centered on the subject! YOU SAID, YOU IMPRISSONED, YOU CREATED THE GEAT WALL, YOU MANIFESTED THE OBSCURATIONS, YOU PUT THINGS IN NICE NEET LITTLE BOTTLES, YOU TRIED TO... "...can be seen only by..." Allow me to use Pink Floyd here a second: "Hello, is there any body in there?..." or let me use the snide teenage anxst "HELLLLLLLLLO" YOU have taken it upon yourself to say, dictate, that something, whatever that something is, can be seen by only something else. <...> -------------------------------------------------------- I am sure you can go on the offensive against Theravada. > What I gave above is the Theravaada perspective on the matter. It is immaterial to me whether you like it or not. > colette: EXACTLY, I do not have to accept delivery of a product that is defective. <....> I think not. -------------------------------------------------------- > >>Colette: "colette: that's a Freudian slip huh? all of your fingers conspired > against you to print that, didn't they? Dukka = Satisfactory Sukha = > Unsatisfactory. Hmmmmmmmmm, something's amis here. > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- > DC: Nothing is amiss there. You seem to be not able to understand what I said. colette: How convenient of you to forget the words that preceded that reply. You will find that you were calling something as being the exact oposite of what it is i.e. black being white, up being down, in being out, etc. You cling to duality <...>. what is "Dhukka" what is Sukka, what is kusala, what is akusala, what is...? Maybe you should find a small insignificant book at your local library called a Dictionary and that will tell you of YOU DICTION. toodles, colette <...> #79833 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 9:18 pm Subject: but wait! ... no payment yet Great Interest accrues nichiconn dear colette and anyone else looking, the perfect gift? thank the www.budaedu.org/en/book folk for, among others: EN081 The Path of Purification - Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa and En248 The Great Discourse on Causation, the Mahanidana Sutta & it's Commentaries - merry xmas, connie #79834 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 9:19 pm Subject: perfections corner nichiconn dear han and friends, we will begin the next chapter soon. best wishes, connie #79835 From: "shennieca" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 9:40 pm Subject: Re: Direct from the Tower of Babel Your Looney Tunes shennieca Hi Colette, I think it IS the Tower of Babel ! Your flowery language and the American culture stuffs that you always talk about, is really difficult for me to understand. I don't 'get' the message that you're trying to convey, sometimes ~. I think you cannot blame the people who didn't grow up in America for not understanding / misunderstanding what you're trying to say... maybe?? It is okay to write about your feelings, but in a discussion forum, I think it is better to make the conversation as clear and as coherent as possible, eh? I like the Canadian 'Eh', I actually say more 'Eh' than my husband. ;- )) lol !! :D With metta, Elaine -------------------- #79836 From: "colette" Date: Wed Dec 5, 2007 10:30 pm Subject: Re: but wait! ... no payment yet Great Interest accrues ksheri3 Dear Connie, Thanx for the site! yes, that is and may turn out to be a very good site for xmas gifts, particularly to myself, for one thing I can get material to read not from the net or from the library and that I can hold on to. It is a gift, isn't it. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "L G SAGE" wrote: > > > dear colette and anyone else looking, > > the perfect gift? <....> #79837 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, and India 5 nilovg Dear Scott, True, mettaa arises with the citta and the effect on others does not change mettaa. Also when others are not able to appreciate one's mettaa, this does not make any difference. We are inclined to always think of stories about others, what they think of us, but this is of no importance. It does not affect true mettaa. We can see that it is purer when we do not think of stories apout persons. Lodewijk appreciate this post of yours, it has helped him, he said. But even if it didn't, this does not affect your true compassion for others on the list. Being totally alone, here is a transcript. Op 5-dec-2007, om 14:12 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > As Nina agreed, there > is mettaa in the so-called stream I could call 'mine', but the mettaa > is not 'mine'. It is mettaa. It is not mettaa that has an effect > anywhere else but in the 'stream' in which is arises. This is why we > are all so totally alone. ---------- India 5. We were travelling in the bus from Lumbini to Kusinara, a very long journey. It was the time of a great festival, Durka Pujja, and as a consequence the bus was hold up many times and had to make a long detour. People had statues which were carried in procession in order to throw them into the river. All the villages were decorated and music was heard. Meanwhile, in the bus, Kh Sujin was holding a microphone and we were having Dhamma conversations in Thai. Kh Sujin said: < Visible object that appears does so only for a very short moment. It has fallen away already, how can it belong to anyone? It never returns. If there would not be citta, the world could not appear. Ignorance does not know what appears. We cling to what already fell away and take it for self. Or we cling to what has not come yet. We should remember the sutta (One Auspicious Night) where the Buddha said not to cling to what is past already and not to hanker after what has not come yet. We are alone in the world, only one citta at a time arises. Seeing arises and then thinking about this or that person. Everyone is alone in the world of his own thinking. The world of each person, each individual is different, because thinking is different. We are born and we die alone. There is happiness and sorrow because citta thinks of these experiences. Kamma produces seeing and on account of seeing each individual thinks differently. So long as there an idea of "I", defilements cannot be eradicated.> ***** Nina. #79838 From: Sunil Khanolkar Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:40 am Subject: Intro ssk_7983 Hello, I have meditated four times in 10 days vipassana shibir in India, but at present not very regular in meditation. In Indian context, I am an aetheist (non-believer). Play Flute. Not much of philosophical readings, forget ancient pali-sanskrit books etc. Though buddhist meditation could be of help in some way to get balances, still meaning of modern day life, typically in India, is more on the mind. I feel the connect from ancient wisdom/philosophy to modern day life is missing. The reality as we say is becoming more and more complex and may be out of control. To suggest that ancient wisdom has it all is also not going to help. Though philosophy is relevant, the interpretation varies with ages. The other issue is why Buddhism declined and vanished from India while still it is in some form (may be typical rituals based) is practiced in east & south east asia. Feel no easy answers. Would not be inclined to go deeper in the meaning of works of Buddha, but in case gets connected with modern way of life, would find more ineteresting. Be Happy, Sunil Khanolkar #79839 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, and India 5 sarahprocter... Dear Nina (Scott & all), --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: S: You quoted K.Sujin as saying the following which to me sums up the Buddha's teachings: > We are alone in the world, only one citta at a time arises. Seeing > arises and then thinking about this or that person. Everyone is alone > in the world of his own thinking. The world of each person, each > individual is different, because thinking is different. We are born > and we die alone. There is happiness and sorrow because citta thinks > of these experiences. Kamma produces seeing and on account of seeing > each individual thinks differently. So long as there an idea of "I", > defilements cannot be eradicated.> ... S: "So long as there an idea of "I", defilements cannot be eradicated." This is why it is so very important to keep hearing reminders, considering and inclining towards an understanding that there really is no "I" at all, except in the world of our thinking. When there's no story about people, such as at moments of seeing or hearing or of understanding realities, there are no people. I also liked the quote you gave about how we're always thinking about stories which are not real. What we hold dear now will be forgotten, but the realities continue to rise and fall indefinitely. "...when we do not think, the story is over". This is exactly what I found so very inspiring when I first heard K.Sujin explaining the Dhamma on tape. For me, it's always been a reminder about the danger of clinging and the virtue of developing understanding with detachment, a little at a time. "Kh Sujin: " Thanks for sharing these passages. Metta, Sarah ======= #79840 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro sarahprocter... Dear Sunil, Thanks for introducing yourself and welcome to DSG! We seem to have quite a few friends from India joining the group recently which is good to see! You raised many good points for discussion, but just looking at your last one for now: --- Sunil Khanolkar wrote: > Would not be inclined to go deeper in the meaning of works of Buddha, > but in case gets connected with modern way of life, would find more > ineteresting. ... S: I think this is important. If the teachings are not applicable to our modern way of life, they are not much use. However, I think they are applicable because they are universal. The same Truths apply just as much to life now as to life in the Buddha's times. The dhammas to be understood, i.e. the 5 khandhas, are just the same, no matter the country we are in or the livelihood we follow. Let me know your thoughts on this before we go further, if you have time! If you'd like to tell us anything more about your background, that would be interesting too. Metta, Sarah =========== #79841 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] 3rd noble truth sarahprocter... Hi Anna, I meant to send a note to welcome you here on DSG too! I'm glad to read your messages and good questions. I see several friends replied to the following one, so I'll just add a brief comment only: --- anna bu wrote: > Hi All, > I gravitated towards Buddhism because of direct experience of suffering > in > my life. ... S: I think this is quite common. Of course, as I'm sure you may know, in the deepest sense, the Buddha taught that all dhammas are impermanent and thereby all dhammas are suffering. So pleasant experiences are just as much suffering as unpleasant experiences. The clinging to the former leads to the aversion to the latter. ... >However, I am struggling to understand what exactly is meant by > the > noble truth of cessation of suffering. ... S: By understanding that all dhammas, all realities in life are suffering and not worth clinging to, gradually it becomes more apparent that it is the clinging (and ignorance) which perpetuates the cycle of suffering. Through the growth of wisdom, suffering will eventually cease. What is conditioned to arise is suffering. That dhamma which is not conditioned to arise, i.e. nibbana, is not suffering. Let me know if you'd like to discuss anything further. Looking forward to reading your further discussions and chatting more with you. If you would care to tell us where you live and anything else about your background, that would be interesting too. Metta, Sarah ========= #79842 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) jonoabb Hi Dieter Getting back to you at last on this thread. Apologies for the delay. Dieter Möller wrote: > Hi Jon , > > you wrote: > > (D: not really the same .. it is not by chance that anatta is mentioned as the last one ) > > Jon: Interesting. Could you say more about how the special significance of the 'anattaa' characteristic, compared to the other 2 characteristics? Thanks. > > D: I think (the relation of) anicca and dukkha are rather obvious, whereas anatta is > is 'veiled' ... > Without anicca and dukkha we wouldn't really care for anatta , would we ? I agree more or less with your comments here. But I thought we were discussing a somewhat different point. Let's backtrack a little. Earlier in the same thread there was this exchange: **************************** Jon: I think we agree on the basics, namely (a) that anatta as a characteristic of conditioned dhammas gradually becomes known as insight is developed, and (b) that the characteristic of anatta is not *fully* penetrated until arahantship is attained. D: yes Jon: (As I understand it, the situation is the same regarding the other 2 characteristics of conditioned dhammas: anicca and dukkha.) D: not really the same .. it is not by chance that anatta is mentioned as the last one **************************** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/78786 In other words what I was saying, and what I understand you to be disagreeing with, was that: (a) not only the characteristic of anatta but also the characteristics of anicca and dukkha gradually become known as insight is developed, and (b) not only the characteristic of anatta but also the characteristics of anicca and dukkha are not *fully* penetrated until arahantship is attained. But I'm not sure from your subsequent post which of these 2 propositions were you disagreeing with, and why. Grateful if you could elaborate on your "Not really the same" answer above. The issue could be put another way: Is there something special about the characteristic of anatta, and the understanding of that characteristic, within the teachings that is not shared by the other 2 general characteristics of anicca and dukkha? Jon #79843 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 5-dec-2007, om 19:26 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > I assume by 'Noble silence ' you refer to : > > 'Yet what is difficult to attain they attain, > Those devoted to stilling the mind. > For them both day and night > The mind delights in meditation."It is difficult, Lord, to > concentrate the mind!" (?) ------ N: To the seventh condition in the Pa~n~na sutta, about talking or keeping silent. -------- D:Stilling the mind relates to the 5 hindrances ..you may remember the simile of water in a pot .. the ground cannot be clearly seen > There is no real insight possible when the mind is not at peace > (the monkey), > whether we are talking about samma sati or samma samadhi. > > The issue of meditation.. ;-) ---------- N: This is the K I sutta about the difficulty of the Path. Now first I quote the Co to the Pa~n~nasutta which elaborates somewhat, for those who find this of interest. ---------- ---------- Text: Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? ------- Pa~n~na (transl here as discernment) is vipassana pa~n~naa, insight wisdom. --------- Text: "There is the case where a monk lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. -------- Co: the teacher is a condition for respect. This, monks, is the first cause, the first requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. "As he lives in apprenticeship under the Teacher or under a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect, he approaches him at the appropriate times to ask & question him: 'What, venerable sir, is the meaning of this statement?' He reveals what is hidden, makes plain what is obscure, and dispels perplexity in many kinds of perplexing things. This is the second cause, the second requisite condition... ------- Co: He has questions about the beginning and the end of the meaning of the text. ----------- Further only Co to the seventh condition. "When he is in the midst of the Sangha he doesn't talk on & on about a variety of things. Either he speaks Dhamma himself or he invites another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble silence. This is the seventh cause, the seventh requisite condition... -------- Co: He does not talk about different things, no animal talk (Talk about kings, etc.). Noble silence: the fourfold jhaana. --------- Text: "He remains focused on arising & passing away with regard to the five aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' This, monks, is the eighth cause, the eighth requisite condition that leads to the acquiring of the as-yet- unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. ------ N: My PTS has: he abides in the contemplation of the rise and fall.. Remains focussed seems to stress as foremost concentration, whereas pa~n~naa is the leader. Sure, it is accompanied by concentration and the other Path factors. -------- Text: "When this is the case, his comrades in the holy life hold him in esteem: 'This venerable one lives in apprenticeship to the Teacher or to a respectable comrade in the holy life in whom he has established a strong sense of conscience, fear of blame, love, & respect. Surely, knowing, he knows; seeing, he sees.' This is a factor leading to endearment, to respect, to development, to consonance, to unification. -------- Co: : he should know what should be known , he sees what should be seen. This leads to respect, etc. The Co adds: it is for the sake of the samana dhammas. The dhammas of a recluse. N: According to G III, 371, these are not returning the insult of the insulter, the anger of the angry, the abuse of the abuser. --------- Nina. #79844 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et sarahprocter... Hi Ken O, Phil & all, --- Ken O wrote: > You could also catch these small meditation seculsion like when doing > your "business" in the office toilet, or if you take public > transport, understand your the objects that comes into the senses. > Even walking could be also helping but do becareful of traffic :-). > These are fun things to do :-). ... S: I don't know that I'd frame this one along with your other recent posts which I think are so helpful. It sounds a little to much like something 'to do' again, but I may misunderstand you. When there is understanding and awareness with calm, there's nothing to be done at all. Cittas arise and fall away far too quickly to 'meditate seclusion'. If one thinks one will be less careful of the traffic or that it'll be even more dangerous surfing with awareness or calm or wonders how one will use names or avoid pot-holes as usual, there is a misunderstanding about the path, about the nature of conditioned dhammas, as I see it. Life carries on as usual with sati (awareness) 'following' what has arisen already. When there is sati, there is also calm. No need to do anything :-). With regard to the long list of obstacles Phil keeps referring to (in the development of samatha bhavana, leading to jhana), I'd stress that the real obstacle is lack of understanding of what samatha is and the clear distinction between kusala and akusala, as Scott indicated with regard to metta and Flower. Do we even know when there is metta now? Metta, Sarah ======== #79845 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) jonoabb Hi again Dieter Dieter Möller wrote: > Hi Tep ( Jon, Nina and ..), > > ... > > There is a beautiful anthology of suttas from Samyutta Nikaya by J.D.Ireland. > In this respect part three, the section on the Aggregates, provides excellent details. > Concerning anatta , part two , the section on Causation, is - as I see it - a treasure waiting for the student to explore. > In case you haven't downloaded the source yet , please click : > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ireland/wheel107.html > Thanks for the link. As you say, a good selection. And the notes are quite useful too. (However, I find the BB translation (CDB), with its extensive commentary notes and indices, to be in a class of its own.) Jon #79846 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:22 am Subject: Back from the surf on the bus.... sarahprocter... Dear friends, I'd like to share an enjoyable experience I had this morning.... After a lovely morning at Big Wave Bay with a swim in the surf and then a rather feeble attempt at surfing, we had a drink and then headed home on the mini-bus as usual. A friend of mine, Owen, got on the bus with us at Big Wave Bay, which is really a very small, sleepy village by the sea in a fairly remote part of Hong Kong island. I usually sit at the back with Jon, so that I can rest and listen to Dhamma talks on my i-pod. However, Owen begged me to sit next to him at the front so that he could practise his (limited, but rapidly improving) English and sing a Christmas carol with me. At the end of the carol, I said I was going to move to the back to rest and listen to my i-pod. "Please stay here and rest and listen to your i-pod with me", he said. He said he wished to listen too, even after I explained there was no music, no carols at all on the i-pod. So I stayed, gave him one of the ear pieces and we huddled up close to listen together. It was a particularly complicated track about lokuttara and jhana cittas. Ever so often he'd stop me and ask what magga cittas were or what jhana is. I tried to give simple explanations that would be of some use to my friend. I explained just a little about knowing good, such as being kind to one's friends and family, so that it would grow and grow. A little later, he asked me what namas and rupas were. I explained that hearing is different from the sounds heard and that these sounds don't do anything, they can't hear anything at all. He nodded wisely and continued to listen intently until a red car he was holding dropped under the seat in front. He picked it up, but then wished to continue listening. Other friends on the bus were now smiling and trying to ask him in Cantonese about what he was listening to. He told them he needed to listen carefully, so couldn't talk to them. After about 3O minutes or so, we got to Jon's and my bus-stop. Very reluctantly, Owen took out the ear-piece and asked if he could listen again next time! As we were getting out, I asked Own to tell me again how old he was. "Five years". We had been travelling on the village school bus, as we usually do, which takes the children to afternoon kindergarden. Little Owen with his incredible curiosity and thirst for information, had been intently listening to the most complex of Dhamma topics, in English, Pali (and the occasional Thai word) on his journey to school, actually picking up the Pali terms:-). Accumulations! Who knows what seeds may have been planted? Metta, Sarah ======= #79847 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Homework Paper to be Graded ..Perplexing ... jonoabb Hi Tep In a thread some time ago now (apologies for the delay), we were talking about how not all ultimate truths can be said to be true in the conventional sense. I gave as an example the first of the 4NT ('Birth is suffering'). You questioned whether this was not also true in the conventional sense. > T: 'Birth is suffering' to me is true in the real- world sense. > I think in the conventional sense birth (i.e, life in this world) is generally regarded as something desirable or even a privilege, not as a cause of suffering. I think your observation is made with the benefit of having studied the teachings and thus having some insight into the ultimate truths. > I do not know > about the ultimate world where there is no birth of beings. > In the ultimate sense birth, like anything else in the ultimate sense, is dhammas (the 5 khandhas, etc). Consider the standard statement in the suttas of the first of the 4NT: "But what, o monks, is the noble truth of suffering? Birth is suffering, decay is suffering, death is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair are suffering; in short, the 5 groups of existence connected with clinging are suffering In this statement, birth, old age and death are equated to the 5 khandhas. Birth itself is, in the ultimate sense, patisandhi citta (and succeeding bhavana cittas, perhaps). Jon #79848 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from the surf on the bus.... nilovg Dear Sarah, what an extraordinary story. But age does not matter in dhamma. He must have listened in former lives. How else could we explain his keen interest, even in Pali? Nina. Op 6-dec-2007, om 12:22 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Little Owen with his > incredible curiosity and thirst for information, had been intently > listening to the most complex of Dhamma topics, in English, Pali > (and the > occasional Thai word) on his journey to school, actually picking up > the > Pali terms:-). Accumulations! Who knows what seeds may have been > planted? #79849 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Self View & Verbal misunderstandings sarahprocter... Hi Johnny, Also, welcome to DSG! --- johnny pruitt wrote: > I dont understand why conceit cannot occure while self view is present. > What is it about these two cetasikas that contradict one another. It > seems in order to have conceit one has to have a view of themself. ... S: I like your good question which Nina, Ken O, Mike (I think) and others have responded to. How did these replies sound to you? Also, you may wish to take a look in "Useful Posts" in the files section of DSG, under 'Conceit5 vs Wrong View'. If you click on the numbers, you'll see past messages on the same good topic. Lots of info there. Simply put, I think that when there is a comparing or finding oneself important, there isn't any view about say the hardness of the arm being oneself or belonging to one. Look forward to reading any of your further comments. Please also tell us a little about where you live and your background if you'd care to. Metta, Sarah ===== #79850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et nilovg Dear Sarah, What I highlighted I find very helpful. Life carries on as usual. There should not be misunderstandings about this. Nina. Op 6-dec-2007, om 11:58 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > If one thinks one will be less careful of the traffic or that > it'll be even more dangerous surfing with awareness or calm or > wonders how > one will use names or avoid pot-holes as usual, there is a > misunderstanding about the path, about the nature of conditioned > dhammas, > as I see it. Life carries on as usual with sati (awareness) > 'following' > what has arisen already. When there is sati, there is also calm. No > need > to do anything :-). #79851 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 4:11 am Subject: Re: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha sarahprocter... Hi Alex,(& Scott), --- Alex wrote: > > S: Ah-hah! So you may be your nemesis Scott's neighbour!! To give > us a clue, do you support the 'Oilers'? > > ... > > I've checked his yahoo profile... :) > > About hockey. This rivalry is ridiculous. Alberta can afford 2 pro > hockey teams. Some provinces can't afford even 1. .... S: Oh, Alex, you're obviously too young to appreciate the thrill that the over 40s in your province get from the rivalry:-) I hope Scott's daughter (with Flower, of course), takes a camera along to catch the moment when you meet and give him a dunking! Seriously, could be fun. In your meditation circles, have you met Steve Roehrig from Edmonton? He visited us in Hong Kong and then in Jasper in the rockies for some good dhamma discussion years ago. He joined DSG very briefly at the beginning. .... > > Arahants obviously don't hate themselves, but they CAN take their own > lives (especially if it is motivated by compassion for the would-be > killers). ... S: We'd have to discuss an example in the texts in which you think this is happening. I don't believe it's possible. ... > If Channa cut his throat (Jugular (sp?) vein (sleeping artery)) he > would have to become Arahat VERY QUICK (since death may be matter of > seconds or minutes) ... S: Yes. Cittas arise and fall away very, very quickly. There are many examples in the texts of people gaining all stages of insight and becoming arahants in a matter of seconds (or less). .... >or in the antara-bhava which Theravada (~240 BC > and later) denies. ... S: No intermediate states. For the term, see more under 'Intermediate states' in 'Useful Posts'. ... >But in any case he died (parinibbana'ed) from > suicide, as an Arahant. This however does not justify suicide. ... S: No, he became an arahant through wisdom. It happened that the higher insights and enlightenment processes occurred at that instant. No, it certainly doesn't justify suicide. .... > > I think there was also another person in similiar situation. Before > the suicided Sariputta and another monk tried to stop him from doing > it. Through question & answer (abhidhamma) discussion the venerable > in great pain was definately an aria (or even an Arahant). ... S: Again, we have to read the text (with the help of the ancient commentary if need be) very carefully. Once we appreciate that there's no way an arahant could possibly commit such an act and once we appreciate how quickly cittas change, it's not difficult to comprehend. ... > > Of course Suicide is something NOT to be done, It bring lots of pain > to the relatives and also considering the preciousness of human > rebirth are very important things to consider... ... S: Such an act is motivated by ignorance. Of course, we don't know what conditions will lead to what kind of ignorance or despair from arising. But for an anagami or arahant without any attachment at all to sensuous objects, such conditons wouldn't arise. .... > Regarding Physical Pain. I disagree. Sometimes pain can be soo > unbearable and without anasthesia the only choice may be to... > Remember unlike today when we can take tranquilizers, people of those > times, especially monks, didn't have access to such high quality > medicine that we have today... .... S: Even so, for anagamis and arahants, no aversion at all. .... .... > Dear Sarah. I hold suttas (and then not all and not all parts) & > vinaya to the be the only best source available. Please don't be > offended by me saying this. ... S: I'm not in the least offended. This is a very common approach. I think my comment was just to the effect that you will miss out if you prefer to ignore what the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries have to say. This can lead to misunderstandings as in the case of Channa and others you've quoted. .... > CofP&F = (Cessation of Perception & Feeling). > > > >>> > Nirodha samapatti doesn't 'lead to' arahatship. > >>> > By itself might it only lead to asanna brahma loca? But if it is used > without clinging and with WISDOM seeing DO, then it leads all the way > toward Arahatship which is how Sariputta for example reached > Arahatship. He went through ALL 8 Jhanas, then when he was fanning > the Buddha he realized that Buddha didn't even cling to his own > teaching, so Sariputta was able to achieve CofP&F after which his > taints were destroyed. MN111 is one of the many suttas that come to > mind. .... S: Nirodha samapatti, CofP&F, is not a state that 'leads' anywhere, as I understand. It is a temporary suspension of cittas, a kind of 'rest' from all that is worldly, only attainable by those very skilled in all jhanas and having attained to the stage of anagami or arahant. The asanna brahma loca is the result of 5th jhana states, wherein no consciousness arises. I'm not sure that this is very useful or what it relates to, but let me know if you can link it up. ... > Considering Sati, Arittha, Devadatta and many others (who would be > considered Elders) we need to be VERY careful not to hear info from > Buddha's monks who may have been misinformed "Elders". The > only "quality control" are the suttas&vinaya. ... S: I'd say the only 'quality control' is the development of right understanding, the development of the Path. We can read suttas & vinaya with right or wrong understanding too. As I've mentioned to DC (and quoted ad nauseum:-)), when we read about 'Dhamma vinaya' or 'suttas&vinaya' in the texts, again we have to consider carefully what this means. Metta, Sarah p.s If you're not meeting Scott soon, how about just putting your own pic in the album for us? ======== #79852 From: Sunil Khanolkar Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 3:15 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro ssk_7983 Dear Sarah, I am in mid-forties, married. Basically a chemical engineer and a cost accountant by profession. Presently work as project consultant and also as Bank/finance related field. Stay in Pune, Maharashtra (India). Be Happy. Sunil Khanolkar sarah abbott wrote: Dear Sunil, Thanks for introducing yourself and welcome to DSG! We seem to have quite a few friends from India joining the group recently which is good to see! <...> #79853 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 5:26 am Subject: Re: India 4 and musings about stories. scottduncan2 Dear Nina (and Lodewijk), Thanks for the reply, cool: Nina: "Yesterday's thinking has completely fallen away, there is nothing left of it. I had a mental picture of you and your children going for a nature walk with the dog Flower. You take him out, he must be very excited? But that thinking is no more." Scott: All gone. Flower (a little bitch, in the true sense of the word - just being silly), loves to go out with us. She runs and her legs are only like four inches long! Right now she is sleeping. Maybe she dreams of running in the trees. N: "I had to go to a funeral service with long speeches, and beautifully dressed up women, elegant hats and jewellery (I felt like a bettler's child, having omaana conceit), but so fragile. They and their husbands, all of our department of foreign affairs, had greatly aged and some of them were walking with great difficulty, with sticks, I could hardly recognize them. Today this story is all gone. Also my discussions with Lodewijk: there is no Nina. What is important now: mindfulness of the naama or ruupa appearing now. It may be thinking and remembering stories, or seeing." Scott: I had to go shopping for a blanket and Rebecca, the vital and stubborn (like her father?) one wanted a hoody but couldn't find one and then wanted some other hideous item of clothing just to avoid disappointment and soon we too were angry with one another. Later, while reading together it was gone. I lamented the anger and the impatience until I stopped - all gone. Now I like to think that the anger in Rebecca was 'over there' and the anger in me 'here' and it only seemed as if there was this interaction. And of course we are together in a store, or reading. I don't think consciously, while I'm trying to get a stubborn girl out of the store or reading to a sleepy girl, 'no-Rebecca, no-Scott'. I'm just in the moment and take it as it seems. There seems to really be a store or a book and a girl and a father. I'm in the human realm and act like a human. It is natural and can't be helped. This doesn't seem to change if one knows (theoretically or otherwise) that things are not how they seem. It would be totally unnatural to pretend to act with others as if they are not there. This would be insane. This would really confuse others and would only be unpleasant. I think, though, that this wouldn't be because the ultimate truth is not true. This would be because certain dhammas would condition the kind of speech and action that would be conducive to the well-being of 'others'. Mettaa, for example, would not lead to such a false way of interacting. Mettaa would have the object's well-being 'in mind' (not a 'little-self' - just a manner of speech). The concept of a person, which has this other 'person' one 'sees' and thinks about as support, is the object of mettaa and mettaa leads to actions that accord with the as-if nature of the existence of this 'person'. Mettaa could have no object and no development otherwise. This having concept as object would be natural, and accord with the actualities inherent in the current human realm in which we find ourselves. Conceit, more likely, would lead to one acting the way one thinks one should act with others in 'real time' were one to be all Buddhisty and Into It and Really, Really Abhidhamma and going, 'There is no me and no you so lets just smile beatifically and leave the store' or whatever. The theoretical knowledge of the Way Things Are - how things are definitely not how they seem - is in the background somehow. I find that this conditions a sort of Pulling Out Of The Moment, and by this I mean at some point there is a noticing of, say, anger, and conditions for it to subside. There are thoughts of suttas and about arisen states not arising in the future. #79854 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 5:42 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (71) nichiconn dear friends, Part 14 14. Ti.msanipaato 1. Subhaajiivakambavanikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 384. "Uppalasikharopamaani te, vimale haa.takasannibhe mukhe; tava me nayanaani dakkhiya, bhiyyo kaamagu.no pava.d.dhati. 382. Seeing your eyes in your face, [to be] compared with the bud of a [blue] lotus, spotless, like gold, my sensual pleasure increases all the more. txt: Uppalasikharopamaani teti rattuppala-aggasadisaani pamhaani tava. Vimaleti nimmale. Haa.takasannibheti ka~ncanaruupakassa mukhasadise te mukhe, nayanaani dakkhiyaati yojanaa. 382. [Compared] with the budy of a [blue] lotus (uppala-sikharopa-maani) means: your eyelashes are like the tips of a lotus of [blue] colour. Spotless (vimale) means: without a spot (nimmale). Like gold means: seeing the eyes in your face, which is like a face that is a gold image. verse: 385. "Api duuragataa saramhase, aayatapamhe visuddhadassane; na hi matthi tayaa piyattaro, nayanaa kinnarimandalocane. 383. Even though you have gone far away, I shall remember [you] - you with the long eyelashes, you with the pure gaze. For no eyes are dearer to me than your, you kinnarii with pleasant eyes. cy: Api duuragataati duura.m .thaana.m gataapi. Saramhaseti a~n~na.m ki~nci acintetvaa tava nayanaani eva anussaraami. Aayatapamheti diighapakhume. Visuddhadassaneti nimmalalocane. Na hi matthi tayaa piyattaro nayanaati tava nayanato a~n~no koci mayha.m piyataro natthi. Tayaati hi saami-atthe eva kara.navacana.m. 383. Even though (api) you have gone far away (duura-gataa) means: even though (pi) you have gone (gataa) to a far away (duura.m) place. I shall remember (saramhase) means: not thinking of anything else, I shall remember your eyes. With long eyelashes (aayata-pamhe) means: with long eyelashes (digha-pakhume). With the pure gaze means: with eyes free from impurity. For no eyes are dearer (piyattaro) to me than yours (tayaa) means: no one is dearer (piyataro) to me than your (tava) eye[s]. The word tayaa ("yours") is an instrumental case in the sense of the genitive. verse: 386. "Apathena payaatumicchasi, canda.m kii.lanaka.m gavesasi; meru.m la"nghetumicchasi, yo tva.m buddhasuta.m maggayasi. 384. You wish to go by way of the wrong path. You seek the moon as a plaything. You wish to jump over Mount Meru, you who have designs upon a child of the Buddha. txt: Eva.m cakkhusampattiyaa ummaaditassa viya ta.m ta.m vippalapato tassa purisassa manoratha.m viparivattentii therii "apathenaa"ti-aadinaa dvaadasa gaathaa abhaasi. Tattha apathena payaatumicchasiiti, aavuso suva.n.nakaaraputta, sante a~n~nasmi.m itthijane yo tva.m buddhasuta.m buddhassa bhagavato orasadhiitara.m ma.m maggayasi patthesi, so tva.m sante kheme ujumagge apathena ka.n.takanivutena sabhayena kummaggena payaatumicchasi pa.tipajjitukaamosi, canda.m kii.lanaka.m gavesasi candama.n.dala.m kii.laago.laka.m kaatukaamosi, meru.m la"nghetumicchasi caturaasiitiyojanasahassubbedha.m sinerupabbataraaja.m la"nghayitvaa aparabhaage .thaatukaamosi, so tva.m ma.m buddhasuta.m maggayasiiti yojanaa. 384. Then turning aside the wishes of that man who was babbling about this and taht as though he had been driven crazy by the splendour of her eyes, the therii spoke the twelve verses beginning [You wish to go] by the wrong path. There, you wish to go by the wrong path means: friend, O son of the goldsmith, you have designs upon, you wish for, me, a child of the Buddha, a true daughter of the Buddha, of the Blessed One, when there are other women folk. You wish to go by, you wish to enter upon, the wrong path (apathena), the wrong path (kammaggena) that is fearful and covered with thorns, when there is a straight path of security. You seek the moon (canda.m) as a plaything means: you are desirous of making the circle of the moon (canda-ma.n.dala.m) into a ball to play with. You wish to jump over Mount Meru means: after jumping over Sineru, the king of the mountains that is eighty-four thousand leagues high, you wish to stand there, you who have designs on me, a child of the Buddha. ===to be continued, connie #79855 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 6:19 am Subject: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex,(& Scott), Seriously, could be > fun. In your meditation circles, have you met Steve Roehrig from Edmonton? >>> I don't know. I generally meditate at home, except for retreats. BTW in one of the retreats (2006 with Bhante G) where there have been people from Edmonton, & there was someone who looked like Scott... > > Arahants obviously don't hate themselves, but they CAN take their own lives (especially if it is motivated by compassion for the would- be killers). > ... > S: We'd have to discuss an example in the texts in which you think this is > happening. I don't believe it's possible. > ... > > If Channa cut his throat (Jugular (sp?) vein (sleeping artery)) he > > would have to become Arahat VERY QUICK (since death may be matter of > > seconds or minutes) > ... > S: Yes. Cittas arise and fall away very, very quickly. There are many > examples in the texts of people gaining all stages of insight and becoming > arahants in a matter of seconds (or less). > .... > >or in the antara-bhava which Theravada (~240 BC > > and later) denies. > ... > >But in any case he died (parinibbana'ed) from > > suicide, as an Arahant. This however does not justify suicide. > ... > S: No, he became an arahant through wisdom. It happened that the higher insights and enlightenment processes occurred at that instant. >> Liberation through wisdom requires 4 Jhana's + Arupa's + Cessation. Paññavimutti Sutta AN 9.44 [Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the Blessed One as released through discernment?" [Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel. "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana... the third jhana... the fourth jhana... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non- perception. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel. "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment without a sequel." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html > ... > S: Such an act is motivated by ignorance. >>> Not always! It can be motivated by Compassion! If lets say an Arahant knows that someone is going to kill him/her then if there is no other choice an Arahant may try to prevent that person from commiting such grave Kamma. Since not all Arahants possess super powers, could it happen that as a last resort, out of the compassion for the killer, an Arahant would take own life (so that the killer wouldn't go to hell)? >> Of course, we don't know what > conditions will lead to what kind of ignorance or despair from arising. > But for an anagami or arahant without any attachment at all to sensuous > objects, such conditons wouldn't arise. >>> Not all cases may be due to dispair or emotional things. See above. > > mind. > .... > S: Nirodha samapatti, CofP&F, is not a state that 'leads' anywhere, as I> understand. It is a temporary suspension of cittas, a kind of 'rest' from > all that is worldly, only attainable by those very skilled in all jhanas >>> In many cases, in many suttas there is a passage which goes: "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the Blessed One as released through discernment without a sequel." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html And MN111 (+ other MN suttas). > and having attained to the stage of anagami or arahant. > The above quote shows that a person who achieves that is ANAGAMI as the highest since Cessation LEADS to release! Since this is found in multiple Nikayas... It shows its importance. >>> We can read suttas & vinaya with right or wrong understanding too. >>> Yes, we need to be careful not to put into Buddha's mouth what he hasn't said. > p.s If you're not meeting Scott soon, how about just putting your own pic in the album for us? > ======== >>> I'll have to find a recent photo. But as Buddha would say, "Why do you want to see this filthy body" ? Lots of metta, Alex #79856 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 2:38 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and Ken & Phil) - In a message dated 12/6/2007 5:59:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Ken O, Phil & all, --- Ken O wrote: > You could also catch these small meditation seculsion like when doing > your "business" in the office toilet, or if you take public > transport, understand your the objects that comes into the senses. > Even walking could be also helping but do becareful of traffic :-). > These are fun things to do :-). ... S: I don't know that I'd frame this one along with your other recent posts which I think are so helpful. It sounds a little to much like something 'to do' again, but I may misunderstand you. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There's clinging to doing and clinging to not doing. If you want to go to work, you need to get out of bed in the morning, and that is something 'to do'. ------------------------------------------------------- When there is understanding and awareness with calm, there's nothing to be done at all. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think of a person with cancer who is told by the doctor "No need to 'do' anything. When there is robust health, there's nothing to be done at all," and then wisely runs post haste to find a different doctor. Our cancer is ignorance and craving, and it is useless to rely on "When there is understanding and awareness with calm, there's nothing to be done at all" in lieu of treatment. That is like saying that when we're not sick, we'll be well. The Buddha was called "The Great Physician," and not for nothing. ------------------------------------------------------------- Cittas arise and fall away far too quickly to 'meditate seclusion'. If one thinks one will be less careful of the traffic or that it'll be even more dangerous surfing with awareness or calm or wonders how one will use names or avoid pot-holes as usual, there is a misunderstanding about the path, about the nature of conditioned dhammas, as I see it. Life carries on as usual with sati (awareness) 'following' what has arisen already. When there is sati, there is also calm. No need to do anything :-). ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Life carrying on as usual is life enmeshed in ignorance and suffering. What is needed is not life going on as usual, but against the stream. --------------------------------------------------------- With regard to the long list of obstacles Phil keeps referring to (in the development of samatha bhavana, leading to jhana), I'd stress that the real obstacle is lack of understanding of what samatha is and the clear distinction between kusala and akusala, as Scott indicated with regard to metta and Flower. Do we even know when there is metta now? ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Do you recall the Buddha's poisoned-arrow metaphor, Sarah, of MN 105. This isn't the better known metaphor which pertains to wanting to know answers to the unanswered questions, but to the need to maintain restraint of the senses. In this sutta the Buddha speaks of a man pierced by an arrow of craving - an arrow smeared with the "poison of ignorance [that] spreads its toxin through desire, passion, & ill will." The Buddha goes on to say the following: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ "Suppose that a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon. The surgeon would cut around the opening of the wound with a knife and then would probe for the arrow with a probe. He then would pull out the arrow and extract the poison, leaving a residue behind. Knowing that a residue was left behind, he would say, 'My good man, your arrow has been pulled out. The poison has been extracted, with a residue left behind, but it is not enough to do you harm. Eat suitable food. Don't eat unsuitable food, or else the wound will fester. Wash the wound frequently, smear it with an ointment frequently, so that blood & pus don't fill the opening of the wound. Don't walk around in the wind & sun, or else dust & dirt may contaminate the opening of the wound. Keep looking after the wound, my good man, and work for its healing.' "The thought would occur to the man: 'My arrow has been pulled out. The poison has been extracted, with a residue left behind, but it is not enough to do me harm.' He would eat unsuitable food, so the wound would fester. He wouldn't wash the wound or smear it with an ointment frequently, so blood & pus would fill the opening of the wound. He would walk around in the wind & sun, so dust & dirt would contaminate the opening of the wound. He wouldn't keep looking after the wound or work for its healing. Now, both because of these unsuitable actions of his and because of the residue of the dirty poison left behind, the wound would swell. With the swelling of the wound he would incur death or death-like suffering. - - - - - - - - - The Buddha calls for continued care and vigilance, even (interestingly) when no residue of poison remains! He does not recommend letting matters simply take their course. The instruction is "Eat suitable food. Don't eat unsuitable food, or else the wound will fester. Wash the wound frequently, smear it with an ointment frequently, so that blood & pus don't fill the opening of the wound. Don't walk around in the wind & sun, or else dust & dirt may contaminate the opening of the wound. Keep looking after the wound, my good man, and work for its healing." And later he makes clear what that "care & vigilance" metaphor pertains to. One who engages in such care & vigilance to fully overcome the piercing is one who is a person "rightly intent on Unbinding". Such a one "... wouldn't pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye. He wouldn't pursue unsuitable sounds with the ear... unsuitable aromas with the nose... unsuitable flavors with the tongue... unsuitable tactile sensations with the body. He wouldn't pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect. When he doesn't pursue unsuitable forms & sights with the eye... doesn't pursue unsuitable ideas with the intellect, lust doesn't invade the mind. With his mind not invaded by lust, he doesn't incur death or death-like suffering." -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Metta, > Sarah ========================== With metta, Howard #79857 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 8:02 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, We have ignorance and wrong view of all realities, we see all the pleasant things of life as a true refuge. We do not realize that all conditioned dhammas are susceptible to change and decay. We should listen to the Dhamma as it is explained by the right friend in Dhamma. In India Acharn Sujin proved again and again to be our right friend in Dhamma. We should consider carefully what we learnt through her and apply it by the development of right understanding of nåma and rúpa. Gradually the characteristics of nåma and rúpa can be understood as they really are and they can be seen as impermanent, dukkha (unsatisfactory or suffering) and anattå, non-self. In this way we shall realize that Dhamma is our true refuge, that there is no external refuge. We should know what can be the object of sati and paññå when satipatthåna is developed: one reality at a time as it appears through one of the sense-doors or the mind-door. When we taste a flavour we usually are forgetful of realities and we think of the concept of the flavour, such as an apple or a sweet. When we have studied the Dhamma there may be conditions for the arising of sati that is non-forgetful of the reality that appears. It can be mindful of the flavour and then understanding can develop of its true nature so that it can be realized as a rúpa appearing through the tongue. Flavour has a characteristic that can be known directly, without the need to think about it or to name it flavour. We can change the name flavour, but its characteristic is unalterable. Thus, characteristics of realities can be directly understood when they appear one at a time, without the need to think about them. Satipatthåna is at first very weak, we hardly know what it is. But when it arises more often we know. It is followed by thinking, but we can realize that it is thinking. Acharn Sujin said: "The theory of satipatthåna is not too difficult, but there may not be enough conditions for the arising of right awareness. One is not used to the characteristic of awareness. If there can be thinking of nåma and rúpa, why can't there be awareness of them? Right now there is the test of one's understanding of seeing, hearing or thinking. While one is listening all realities arise and fall away because of the appropriate conditions... Paññå can know at which moment there is satipatthåna and at which moment there is not. Sati of satipatthåna arises and falls away very rapidly and one thinks about satipatthåna and the object of satipatthåna. Later on the difference between sati and thinking can be known. Paññå should be keen enough to see the difference. The eightfold Path is difficult because it has to be developed with detachment. Having the intention or the wish to develop it is not the Path; if one wishes to know a reality even if that reality seems to be clear, it is wrong, and paññå should be very keen to realize this. The Path cannot be developed by the intention to know realities. The wrong practice can only be eradicated by the path-consciousness (magga-citta) of the sotåpanna, the person who attains the first stage of enlightenment." ******* Nina. #79858 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 8:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas. moellerdieter Dear Nina, you wrote: Nina:I have more on the co (in Thai) to the pa~n~nasutta. Noble silence is the fourfold jhaana. D: I assume by 'Noble silence ' you refer to : 'Yet what is difficult to attain they attain, Those devoted to stilling the mind. For them both day and night The mind delights in meditation."It is difficult, Lord, to concentrate the mind!" (?) Nina: N: To the seventh condition in the Pa~n~na sutta, about talking or keeping silent. --------: snip ' Either he speaks Dhamma himself or he invites another to do so, and he feels no disdain for noble silence. This is the seventh cause, the seventh requisite condition...' -------- Co: He does not talk about different things, no animal talk (Talk about kings, etc.). Noble silence: the fourfold jhaana. D: I thought already there is a misunderstanding.. whereas I am agreeing to ' and he feels no disdain for noble silence' is refering to 'no animal talk (Talk about kings, etc.)., or more general in common parlance 'talk is silver , silence is gold' but to connect here the 'fourfold jhaana' is pulling something out of thin air. Nina:I quote the Co to the Pa~n~nasutta which elaborates somewhat, for those who find this of interest. ---------- ---------- Text: Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? ------- Pa~n~na (transl here as discernment) is vipassana pa~n~naa, insight wisdom. D: can we agree on discernment = wisdom = panna (due to insight(s), i.e. vipasssana) ? no questions otherwise .. with Metta Dieter --------- #79859 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 9:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas. moellerdieter Dear DC, you wrote: ' I think there are two ways: One through the jhaanas; that is achieving nirodha samaapatti, the other is through 'vipassanaa'--really, samatha and vipassanaa. But finally which ever way one proceeds, the result is the same. "akuppaa me ceto vimutti." But the vipassana has nothing to do with what is now generally called vipassanaa. Or the abhidhammika analysis. It is direct pereception.' D: one can possibly write books meanwhile about discussions of samatha -vipassana.. Vipassana is direct perception , sounds right to me in a way that direct preception refers to insight = without defilements/without the hindrances. I was thinking you would comment about : '."It is difficult, Lord, going on an uneven path!" Yet along this uneven path they walk, Those Nobles Ones, Kaamada. On the uneven the ignoble fall headlong, But the way is even for the Noble, For over the uneven they walk evenly.- SN 2.6 concerning our discussion weeks ago, when we talked about the 2 paths . If I remember correctly you did not respond to my last message close to above.. never mind in case we agree now with Metta Dieter #79860 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas. nilovg Dear Dieter, Op 6-dec-2007, om 17:39 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > Co: He does not talk about different things, no animal talk (Talk > about kings, etc.). > Noble silence: the fourfold jhaana. > > D: I thought already there is a misunderstanding.. > whereas I am agreeing to ' and he feels no disdain for noble > silence' is refering to 'no animal talk (Talk about kings, etc.)., > or more general in common parlance 'talk is silver , silence is > gold' but to connect here the 'fourfold jhaana' is pulling > something out of thin air. ------- N: I just quote what the Co. stated. Noble silence. It is best to be silent with kusala citta. A monk who has free time, and who has the inclination, could develop the jhaanas. He can develop jhaana and vipassana. -------- > > Nina:I quote the Co to the Pa~n~nasutta which elaborates somewhat, for > those who find this of interest. > ---------- > ---------- > Text: Monks, these eight causes, these eight requisite conditions > lead to the acquiring of the as-yet-unacquired discernment that is > basic to the holy life, and to the increase, plenitude, development, > & culmination of that which has already been acquired. Which eight? > ------- > Pa~n~na (transl here as discernment) is vipassana pa~n~naa, insight > wisdom. > > D: can we agree on discernment = wisdom = panna (due to insight(s), > i.e. vipasssana) ? ------- N: There are so many synonyms for pa~n~naa. It does not matter, so long as we understand what is meant. The Co suggests vipassana pa~n~na. It can be discernment of realities, developed through satipatthana. Nina. #79861 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:31 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin,,,the wound nilovg Hi Howard, I like the sutta very much. The taking care of the wound appeals to me. I think that it is a good exhortation to not be forgetful of satipatthana and all kusala. Then one is not careless, pursuing what is akusala. Bhaavana, this includes study of the teachings, samatha and vipassana. Why is Kh Sujin stressing listening so much? When we listen attentively, even when we do not have much time, it means that there is just a tiny bit more understanding. In this way understanding can grow from day to day. We cannot "do" anything to hasten it. There is a season for everything. I was thinking of you: happy Chanuka. You must be busy as an assistant cantor. Lodewijk is delighted you are doing this. Nina. Op 6-dec-2007, om 16:38 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > The Buddha calls for continued care and vigilance, even > (interestingly) when > no residue of poison remains! He does not recommend letting matters > simply > take their course. The instruction is "Eat suitable food. Don't eat > unsuitable > food, or else the wound will fester #79862 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. nilovg Dear Elaine, Op 6-dec-2007, om 3:57 heeft shennieca het volgende geschreven: > Actually what is meant by "atta"? By knowing what is "atta", maybe I > can understand anatta better. -------- N: You wrote: "It is me, Elaine! ". Perhaps this gives you a key? I just quote now and you can see whether you find it helpful. Otherwise, just leave it aside. Kh Sujin said: < touch your body, there is an idea of I touch my body. We take realities for self, not seeing them as only a dhamma. We take our own citta and body for self and also other people we take for something. If there is no understanding of the reality that is now appearing, can there be the eradication of even the idea of "I" from the visible object? What is seen is just a reality. At the moment of not seeing anatta, there is atta and there is clinging to that as well. Clingin to self (attavadupadana): anything we take for something not knowing its true nature. Q.: Taking visible object for something. is that wrong view? Kh S: It is not right, it seems so permanent.> ------- Nina. #79863 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 12:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What I heard and musings about stories. nilovg Dear Scott, I like your examples from daily life. It can help Lodewijk and others. Op 6-dec-2007, om 14:26 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > I don't think consciously, while I'm trying to get a stubborn girl out > of the store or reading to a sleepy girl, 'no-Rebecca, no-Scott'. I'm > just in the moment and take it as it seems. There seems to really be > a store or a book and a girl and a father. I'm in the human realm and > act like a human. It is natural and can't be helped. This doesn't > seem to change if one knows (theoretically or otherwise) that things > are not how they seem. It would be totally unnatural to pretend to > act with others as if they are not there. This would be insane. This > would really confuse others and would only be unpleasant. --------- N: On audio Aug. 16, P. a, Kh S spoke about awareness and also about the brahma viharas. Kh S: < It is difficult to know realities. Dosa: we know it as my dosa. Seeing, we know it as my seeing. Only when satipatthana arises we know them (correctly). Now we know them only by name. Even when there is much explanation of visible object, it is someone or something all the time, because there is no awareness that is aware of visible object. The thinking follows upon seeing so fast. When satipatthana arises, this follows the reality that appears, and it understands visible object before there can be thinking, or after the thinking; it does not matter at all, it depends on the moment awareness arises. > ------- N: I find it difficult to realize that it is my seeing, what about you, Scott? I think only pa`n~naa when it arises can know this. --------- Kh S: ------ N: True: we think of I have to be a good person and cling to this. I should not be an evil person. Nina. #79864 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 11:01 am Subject: Great Benefit: The state of No-Return. bhikkhu0 Friends: The Blessed Buddha once said: Bhikkhus, & Friends, from the cultivation and making much of The idea of a Skeleton; The idea of a Worm-eaten Corpse; The idea of a Pale Bluish Discoloured Corpse; The idea of a Cleaved & Cut-up Corpse; The idea of a Bloated & Inflated Corpse; The thought of Universal Friendliness; The thought of Boundless Pity; The thought of Mutual Joy; The thought of Imperturbable Equanimity; The training of Aware Breathing-in & Breathing-out; The notion of Disgust; The inevitable Death; The Dispassion of Dislike with all in World; The fact of inherent Impermanence; The fact of immanent Misery & Pain; The fact of intrinsic Egolessness; The state of Leaving Behind; The state of Release; The state of Ceasing! One of two effects, one of two fruits may be expected even in this very life: Awakening to Arahatship or Non-Return... Such training therefore results in a Great Benefit; in a Great Peace from all mental Bondage, in a Great Thrill, in a Great Pleasure of Living!!! How, friends, should these ideas be cultivated, how should these ideas be made much of, so as to reach these fruits? In this, any Noble Friend trains and cultivates the: The Awareness ... of No-Self, (see note # below) The Investigation ... of No-Self, The Energy ... of No-Self, The Joy ... of No-Self, The Tranquillity ... of No-Self, The Concentration ... of No-Self, The Equanimity ... of No-Self, All based on seclusion, based on detachment, based on ceasing, ending in self-surrender. If these ideas is thus cultivated, thus made much of, thus joined with the 7 links to Awakening, one may look for one of these two fruits even in this very life: Realization of Disciple-Buddhahood, or if there are any remaining substrate of clinging left back, in all cases: The state of No-Return! Source: Samyutta Nikaya V, Maha Vagga: Great Benefits: The state of No-Return! AnÄ?gÄ?mi # Note: And any of the others in the list should be substituted here so that all these 19 meditations are properly joined and fused with the 7 links to Awakening. The Non-Returner (AnÄ?gÄ?mÄ«) is a Noble Disciple (ariya-puggala ) on the 3rd stage of holiness: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/library/DPPN/wtb/a/anagami.htm Friendship is the Greatest :-) Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka * .... #79865 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 7:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin,,,the wound upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/6/2007 2:32:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, I like the sutta very much. The taking care of the wound appeals to me. I think that it is a good exhortation to not be forgetful of satipatthana and all kusala. Then one is not careless, pursuing what is akusala. Bhaavana, this includes study of the teachings, samatha and vipassana. Why is Kh Sujin stressing listening so much? When we listen attentively, even when we do not have much time, it means that there is just a tiny bit more understanding. In this way understanding can grow from day to day. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm completely in favor of listening and contemplating. It's very important. --------------------------------------------------- We cannot "do" anything to hasten it. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) The listening and considering is already "doing something"! ---------------------------------------------- There is a season for everything. --------------------------------------------- Howard: Under the heavens. :-) ---------------------------------------------- I was thinking of you: happy Chanuka. You must be busy as an assistant cantor. Lodewijk is delighted you are doing this. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for the kind wishes, Nina! (And thanks to Lodewijk!) Actually, I'm one of several people serving as cantor from time to time, so it's not too hectic. A week from tomorrow, though, at the Friday night service, they are inaugurating the use of the new Reform Judaism prayer book, and I am serving as cantor at that service! (I didn't know that at the time I "signed up" as cantor for that Sabbath service! My "luck"! LOLOL!) --------------------------------------------------- Nina. ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #79866 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 1:41 pm Subject: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex,(& Scott), > > > Sarah > p.s If you're not meeting Scott soon, how about just putting your own pic > in the album for us? > ======== > I just did upload 2 pics from 2006. It is funny, I don't look Buddhist.... Please don't forget to reply to my msg #79855 . Regarding Cessation attainment. It is one of the ways towards Arahatship which, BTW, Ven. Sariputta has used. Considering the frequency of Arahatship mentioned after emerging with wisdom from Cessation, it is obviously a very valid path. Lots of Metta, Alex #79867 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 4:55 pm Subject: Re: Back from the surf on the bus.... buddhatrue Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Dear friends, > > I'd like to share an enjoyable experience I had this morning.... > Uh oh, corrupting Hong Kong's youth again! ;-)) (just kidding). Nice story- a good example of the amazing results of kamma. Metta, James #79868 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 5:04 pm Subject: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha buddhatrue Hi Alex, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > I just did upload 2 pics from 2006. It is funny, I don't look > Buddhist.... Nice pictures; and I think you look very Buddhist. :-) Great to see a DSG member in the sitting meditation pose!! You could help to lead others by example. And, I am quite envious that you can sit in the full lotus posture. I can only sit in the full lotus for a view minutes before my knees start to scream out in torture! ;-)) Metta, James #79869 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 5:19 pm Subject: was Re: [dsg] - Nirodha truth_aerator Hi James, I think I've said in the caption, that, I cannot sit in that position. I generally sit in the chair. I can't imagine pain if I tried to sit for hours in FL... Dukhanupassana maybe... Lots of Metta, Alex #79870 From: "shennieca" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 6:24 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. shennieca Hi Nina, I hope wisdom will grow by 'reading' about anatta. But how does wisdom grow by reading the same passage (about anatta) again and again? Did the Buddha recommend reading a lot of suttas, especially the Anattalakkhana sutta?? I agree with Lodewijk - there is no need to repeat anatta so many times. :-)) The basic understanding of anatta is good enough for now. It is better to strive towards the realization of anatta by doing something, like meditating. We cannot say a person meditates because of wrong view. The person meditates because the conditions for meditation have arisen. When the person starts meditating, maybe it starts with a self-view. But hopefully at the end of the session, s/he will realize the real not- self. S/he will experience the mind that is wide and expansive, where all elements merge and become the same (maybe something like that, I don't know). Actually, I've never heard any Buddhist teachers say that meditation is wrong-view. Does KS say that meditation is wrong-view? With metta, Elaine #79871 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 9:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Direct from the Tower of Babel Your Looney Tunes dcwijeratna Collette, Please do not reply to this. The discussion with you is terminated. It is not possible to discuss things with a person who seems to get a great sadistic pleasure out of insulting and ridiculing the other man's views, opinions and beliefs, and never ridicule a person on account of his disabilities. We have been brought up in a different culture, our standards of discussion are very different to yours. So that is why I started with "Please do not reply this." Discussion with you is a total waste of time. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79872 From: "colette" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 9:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Back from the surf on the bus.... ksheri3 Hi Nina, Very good observation, you phrased it differently than I would have: I wouldn't have placed it in a re-incarnative setting where you say "He must have listened in former lives" I would've simply put it in terms of what was easy for him to enjoy and to hear. I thought Sarah's explanation of sounds was pretty good and got the ball rolling with her friend on the bus -- the sound cannot hear itself nor experience itself. Yes, I also tend to believe that "buddhatrue" has an angle on the situation where it is clear that Sarah is corrupting the innocent youth. But such is the social norm for most of us when we get goin' on things we enjoy. I wonder if her corruption of youth would be seen, viewed, as in competition with the corruption that the People's Republic is trying to instill as patented conditioning, however? toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > what an extraordinary story. But age does not matter in dhamma. He > must have listened in former lives. How else could we explain his > keen interest, even in Pali? <....> #79873 From: "colette" Date: Thu Dec 6, 2007 10:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. ksheri3 Hi Elaine, Just a small question concerning your moniker. "shennieca" is that another spelling of the Shekina, which is a kabbalistic terminology and applied as the female aspects of the godhead? As for Anatta, wasn't it Adam Smith, the economist, that wrote about the Theory of the Invisible Hand? Here, the theory goes that if you strive to get to point B from point A you will not arrive there, you will arrive at another location, other than point B, because of the interaction of the Invisible Hand. So, what I've always believed and practiced is that no matter how many irons I have in the fire I've gotta continually check each and every individual iron to see what it's up to. Naturally, in the case of studying Anatta, it is an iron in the fire, well, as I broaden my wisdom of Buddhist doctrine I may find that I have fired and tempered the iron of Anatta enough and that is is complete, WITHIN ME. Meditation is the key practice here. I meditate every night, have since 1981-2 when I practiced magik in San Diego and Los Angeles. If you don't push Anatta then Anatta won't push you away. View it as a living thing. Let Anatta warm up to you. All wild animals take time to adjust and accustom their selves to human beings. Allow your Stream of Consciousness to flow. Where did you get the idea that "meditation is wrong view" or that any reasonable person would suggest such a stupidity? Wrong View is a capitulation to delusionary thought, hallucinations, it's like signing a contract with a loan shark or going to another country strictly for the purpose of transporting drugs as a mule. Those are hallucinations and delusions that an individual would be subserviant to and be stuck with the baggage of their unwholesomeness. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "shennieca" wrote: > > Hi Nina, > > I hope wisdom will grow by 'reading' about anatta. But how does > wisdom grow by reading the same passage (about anatta) again and > again? Did the Buddha recommend reading a lot of suttas, especially > the Anattalakkhana sutta?? > > I agree with Lodewijk - there is no need to repeat anatta so many > times. :-)) <...> #79874 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 12:27 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dacostacharles Dear Alex, Thanks, but I am a little confused, I will have to study this more later. I read the sutra as saying that Nibbana has two elements (the phrase: “two elements of Nibbâna”). Not that Nibbana is an element. What confuses me is that this would mean Nibbana is also compounded, meaning … However, I read “some-where” that Nibbana is the only uncompounded … so this is why I am confused. I may have unconsciously embraced the Chan interpretation of Nibbana (it correlating to the TAO Great) where Chinese Buddhist want to … the Taoists. It is good to see this interpretation/translation. And, it makes a lot of since. This would also make the characteristics of existence, known as compounded-ness, even more universal, more an Ultimate Truth. Scary … :-)! However, the important resulting meaning of the sutra will be the same, which ever approach you take. Charles DaCosta PS: I hope something referes me back to this sutra later. OK I will print it! _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 14:16 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy > I have never heard of Nibbana existing as an element (Nibbana > Dhatu). Where In the suttas there is "nibbana dhatu". In the Itivuttaka the Buddha says: "There are, O Bhikkhus, two elements of Nibbâna. What two? "The element of Nibbâna with the basis (upâdi) still remaining and that without basis. <...> #79875 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 12:45 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dacostacharles Dear Robert, Most of my interpretation comes from analyzing/compiling (i.e., comparing, contrasting, accepting, rejecting, and experiencing) information I have studied back in '75-79, 90-99, and currently) and I am not good at remembering sources unless they were a wealth of information. Two good books that can point in this direction are: "Opening of the Wisdom Eye" by the current Dali Lama; and "The Buddha's Teachings" In Commemoration of Somdet Phra Nanasamvara. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rjkjp1 Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 14:58 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy Dear Charles thanks, do you have any references about this? Robert <...> #79876 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 12:58 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dacostacharles Hi Wijeratna You are right about "Seeing." I had accepted an interpretation that included a little more than knowledge about the subject. For example, it is easy to assume that many of the Buddha's contemporaries (the other teachers of the day) knew the Buddha's teachings (i.e., Seeing), but they did not accepted them as correct, and the Eye of Dharma refers to the first stage on the Buddhist path. So therefore there must also be Acceptance. I forgot to add to the list that, to some, the Eye of Dharma refers to a person who has taken some version of the 5 precepts (i.e., vows). There are also groups that reduce the precepts to 3: The vow to Refrain from Evil; The vow to Cultivate Virtue; and The vow to Discipline the Mind. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DC Wijeratna Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2007 15:50 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy Hi Charles, I think dhamma-cakkhu refers only to 'seeing'. If you can see there is no question of acceptance. You can accept without seeing. That is belief. Seeing is knowledge. <...> #79877 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 2:10 am Subject: Re: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha sarahprocter... Hi Alex, (DC & all), --- Alex wrote: > Regarding Cessation attainment. It is one of the ways towards > Arahatship which, BTW, Ven. Sariputta has used. Considering the > frequency of Arahatship mentioned after emerging with wisdom from > Cessation, it is obviously a very valid path. ... S: There are no cittas arising during cessation attainment, therefore no wisdom or other skilful states. So it is the wisdom, the insight into dhammas, prior to and after emerging from cessation, rather than cessation itself which is the 'way' or path towards even higher insight in the case of the anagami only. There are some helpful notes in the Compendium Manual of Abhidhamma (CMA), edited by B.Bodhi. Here's one, the guide to Ch IX, 43: "The attainment of cessation is a meditative attainment in which the stream of consciousness and mental factors is completely cut off temporarily. It can be obtained only by non-returners and Arahants who have mastery over all the fine-material and immaterial jhaanas. Further, it can be obtained only within the sensuous plane or the fine-material plane of existence. It cannot be obtained within the immaterial plane, for there is no attaining of the four fine-material jhaanas there, which are the prerequisites for entering cessation. "To enter cessation the meditator must attain each jhaana in proper sequence After emerging from each one, he contemplates its factors as impermanent, suffering, and non-self. In this manner the procedure is carried as far as the base of nothingness. After emerging from the base of nothingness the meditator then makes four resolutions: (1) that any requisites he has belonging to others should not be destroyed during the attainment (his own requisties are automatically protected by the attainment itself); (2) that he should emerge if his services are needed by the Sangha; (3) that he should emerge if he is summoned by the Buddha (during the Buddha's lifetime); and (4) that he is not bound to die within seven days. After making these resolutions, he enters the fourth immaterial jhaana, which occurs for two moments of javana. Immediately after, he atains cessation, wherein the stream of consciousness is temporarily suspended." ***** S: Even when we read such details about mastery and the meditator, we should remember that all dhammas are conditioned, all dhammas are anatta. It always depends entirely on conditions at any moment what namas and rupas will arise. Metta, Sarah > I just did upload 2 pics from 2006. It is funny, I don't look > Buddhist.... ... S: Very nice pics, thank you! I don't know what it means to look Buddhist:-) Perhaps your kind example will encourage DC and any other members who've not yet put a pic in the album to do so. .... #79878 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 2:53 am Subject: Re: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha sarahprocter... Hi Alex, I'm following the discussion on nirodha samapatti first here: --- Alex wrote: >In many cases, in many suttas there is a passage which goes: > > "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of > neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the > cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, > the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it > through discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by > the Blessed One as released through discernment without a sequel." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.044.than.html > And MN111 (+ other MN suttas). ... S: OK, further to my other message to you, this quote is a good one to look at. Let me quote from the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation with notes: " "Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, Saariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing wisdom.* " He emerged mindful from that attainment. Having done so, he recalled the past states, which had ceased and changed, thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been come into being; having been, they vanish.** Regarding those states, he abided unattracted, unrepelled, independent, detached, free, dissociated, with a mind free of barriers. He understood: 'There is no escape beyond,' and with the cultivation of that [attainment], he confirmed that there is not.*** S: whilst reading the following notes, recall just how quickly cittas rise and fall away: * "MA [S: the commentary to the passage] offters this explanation of the passage, transmitted by "the elders of India": "The Elder Sariputta cultivated serenity and insight in paired conjunction and realised the fruit of non-returning. Then he entered the attainment of cessation, and after emerging from it he attained arahantship." " ** "Since there are no mental factors in the attainement of cessation, MA says that "these states" her must refer either to the states of material form that were occurring while he attained cessation, or to the mental factors of the preceding fourth immaterial attainment." *** "Note the realisation that there is "no escape beyone" the attainment of arahantship." S: So it was the insight into the dhammas (the namas or rupas PRIOR to nirodha samapatti) that led to the attainment of arahantship. He fully penetrated those dhammas as conditioned, as anicca, dukkha and anatta and the last perversions of taking what is dukkha for sukkha (including the highest jhana states, magga and phala cittas or any becoming of any kind) were totally eradicated. .... > > and having attained to the stage of anagami or arahant. > > > The above quote shows that a person who achieves that is ANAGAMI as > the highest since Cessation LEADS to release! Since this is found in > multiple Nikayas... It shows its importance. .... S: I would say it shows the extraordinary wisdom and attainments of the Buddha's key disciples. Again, I repeat, it was the highest insight into conditioned dhammas that led to complete release from any extremely subtle remnants of attachment. ***** **** S: Back to the other points: Alex: >Liberation through wisdom requires 4 Jhana's + Arupa's + Cessation. ... S: I don't think so. Are you saying that when Visakkha became a sotapanna as a 7 year old child that she had attained the highest jhanas and nirodha samapatti? When we read particular suttas, we have to know who is being referred to. Often, those bhikkhus with the very highest of attainments. ... > Paññavimutti Sutta AN 9.44 > [Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through > discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the > Blessed One as released through discernment?" > > [Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in > the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied > by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through > discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the > Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel. ... S: Other texts make it very clear that in the case of the Sukkha-vipassaka (Dry Insight worker), there are no prior jhanas to enlightenment. [See 'Dry Insight' in U.P.] .... S: back to the discussion of suicide.... > > S: Such an act is motivated by ignorance. > >>> > > Not always! It can be motivated by Compassion! If lets say an Arahant > knows that someone is going to kill him/her then if there is no other > choice an Arahant may try to prevent that person from commiting such > grave Kamma. Since not all Arahants possess super powers, could it > happen that as a last resort, out of the compassion for the killer, > an Arahant would take own life (so that the killer wouldn't go to > hell)? .... S: Why did the Buddha not take his own life then when Devadatta was about to hurl the stone at him which the Buddha knew would send him to hell for aeons? Each is responsible for his/her own kamma. .... > Of course, we don't know what > > conditions will lead to what kind of ignorance or despair from > arising. > But for an anagami or arahant without any attachment at > all to sensuous > objects, such conditons wouldn't arise. > >>> > > Not all cases may be due to dispair or emotional things. See above. ... S: You're extemely familiar with the suttas. Show me one example of an arahant who committed suicide out of compassion. Impossible! No attachment to sensuous objects at all. Good to discuss these topics with you Alex. I appreciate your keen interest. I apologise for any slow replies. Metta, Sarah ======= #79879 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 3:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3rd noble truth sarahprocter... Hi Anna & DC, You were asking about the arahant's experience, if I recall" --- DC Wijeratna wrote: > I think the answer would be "no change in perception" except that they > would look at any interaction with the world as just an interaction and > would not react to it lobha dosa, and moha. As long as an arahant > lives in this world, he perceives just like a human being. .... S: I think this is a rather good answer. The experiences of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching are just like now. Just the same visible objects, sounds and so on are experienced. There is still the remembrance of how to walk and talk, what we call people and trees and so on. The difference, as DC points out is that there are no reactions with lobha, dosa and moha (attachment, aversion and ignorance). There is no illusion that in any ultimate sense people and trees exist. There are no useless proliferations with attachment and ignorance about what is experienced at all. No new kamma either. Metta, Sarah ========= #79880 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 3:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: >You are taking the teaching of anatta to an > extreme which doesn't correspond with what the Buddha taught. ... S: I'm just picking up on this point because it reminds me of a comment a friend made off-list recently as well about 'extreme views' of anatta. I think that any accusations of taking 'anatta to an extreme' are a great compliment. No one can appreciate how really 'extreme' the teaching of anatta is as the Buddha and the arahants. As I just quoted, Sariputta recalled "the past states, which had ceased and changed, thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been come into being; having been, they vanish." S: And that's it! There is nothing in life except the different 'states', different namas and rupas vanishing as soon as they've arisen. Just because we reflect on such comments or reflect on how there really aren't any people, no "I" at all, doesn't mean there is no self-view. However, the point in our thread was that unless we consider carefully what the realities are now, how there really is no "I" to will anything, right understanding will never incline towards the heart of the Buddha's teachings. Metta, Sarah p.s Thanks to you and Nina for your kind responses to my dhamma sharing with little Owen yesterday. I'll let you know if there's a sequel. It really was delightful. At one point he heard me on the recording asking a question. He was quite puzzled and looked up to see if my lips were moving! A very unusual child from a 'simple', village background. ====== #79881 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 4:54 am Subject: Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "If I were into Hockey, then I'd do that. hahahahah! J/k." Scott: Good one. Me: "There is constant experience for me" A: "But didn't you say that Me: There is experience, but no experiencer. ???" Scott: Don't forget that we've both already clarified the difference between conventional speech and speech referring to ultimates. You've already seemed to demonstrate that you know the difference so this sort of argument really goes backwards as far as I'm concerned. Maybe you forgot. While my ongoing experience is such that it seems to be 'constant' and 'my experience', I also have a firm intellectual grasp on the fact that it is only experience and that the sense that it is mine and constant is only illusory. I have no doubts about this. If you really get the distinction, you shouldn't either. This point goes directly to the endless arguments that are made about 'book learning' versus knowing by experience. This is how an intellectual right understanding serves to allay confusion. Very important in my opinion. A: "What I tried to say is that THERE IS INDUVIDIALITY (atleast spatio-temporal) even in the Arahants (also they don't have or create new "personality")." Scott: That's why I said, 'Uh huh'. I think this is a point of agreement, if I'm following you. I don't misunderstand it and think of a person, which doesn't exist ultimately. A: "So if experience is DIFFERENT every second. Then how can a person, lets call him John, recollect the past and say 'It was me, as opposed to Bob who experienced this and this at such and such a time' ?" Scott: Here it is clear how thoughts of a person are confusing you. A person doesn't recollect anything. I'd say, to be simplistic about it, that sa~n~naa, for one thing, recollects, not a person. Sa~n~naa is one of the mental factors arising at each moment and the function it has is very much like what you want to continue to ascribe to 'a person'. The 'experience' is part of an ongoing succession of moments of consciousness occuring in 'a single stream' and serving as condition in a complex way for ongoing moments of consciousness. A: "How is the stream of totally different and instantly changing cittas considered to be ONE stream? Ex: Devadatta & Buddha or person A & B." Scott: Because they occur conditioned by each other. This is how kamma leads to results, even lifetimes after the occurrence of an act, as you say already. Past kamma in the 'stream' leads to result in the same 'stream', not in another. A: "a) How is Buddhist Anatta different from Materialistic conception of 'No soul'. Scott: I don't know, I'm not familiar with that particular conception. A: "b) How is Anicca (especially in Early Buddhism where it refered to lit. aging & lit. death) is different from lets say Morticians or worldly thinkers who think about impermanence, etc?" Scott: It isn't unless one considers impermenance in a much deeper way and this depth refers to the momentaneity of dhammas and how, at each moment, there is death and change and hence dukkha. I don't argue for the 'slow impermanence' view that, as you say, any observant worldling can witness. Others have, denying the validity of abhidhamma clarifications and sticking to the fundamentalist 'sutta only' view. The Buddha taught beyond that. Are you now on that same page? Sincerely, Scott. #79882 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 5:31 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (71) nichiconn dear friends, Part 15 14. Ti.msanipaato 1. Subhaajiivakambavanikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 387. "Natthi hi loke sadevake, raago yatthapi daani me siyaa; napi na.m jaanaami kiiriso, atha maggena hato samuulako. 385. For I do not now have any object of desire anywhere in the world, including the devas. Whatever sort it might be, it has been smitten root and all by the [eightfold] path. Idaani tassa attano avisayabhaava.m patthanaaya ca vighaataavahata.m dassetu.m "natthii"ti-aadi vutta.m. Tattha raago yatthapi daani me siyaati yattha idaani me raago siyaa bhaveyya, ta.m aaramma.na.m sadevake loke natthi eva. Napi na.m jaanaami kiirisoti na.m raaga.m kiirisotipi na jaanaami. Atha maggena hato samuulakoti athaati nipaatamatta.m. Ayonisomanasikaarasa"nkhaatena muulena samuulako raago ariyamaggena hato samugghaatito. 385. Now, in order to show that what he desires is an impossibility and a source of annoyance, the [verse] beginning [For I] do not [now have any object of desire] is said. There, for I do not now (daani) have any object of desire ... whatever sort it might be means: I do not now (idaani) have any object of desire anywhere in the world as a basis for that, including the devas, whatever sort it might be (siyaa = bhaveyya). Whatever sort it might be (na pi na.m jaanaami kiriso)* means: I do not know what sort of object of desire it [could be] (na.m raaga.m kiriso ti pi na jaanaami). In it has been smitten root and all by the [eightfold] path, the word atha [untranslated] is only a particle. Through the noble path, the object of desire has been smitten, has been completely destroyed, root and all (samuulako), with its root (muulena), which is called unwise attention. *"What sort of object of desire [could] it be? That I do not know." The idea is that she has destroyed desire for all kinds of objects, and because they are of so many sort, she could not know them all. verse: 388. "I"ngaalakuyaava ujjhito, visapattoriva aggito kato; napi na.m passaami kiiriso, atha maggena hato samuulako. 386. It is made to be like a fire that has jumped out of a charcoal pit, like a bowl of poison. Whatever sort it might be, it has been smitten root and all by the [eightfold] path. I"ngaalakuyaati a"ngaarakaasuyaa. Ujjhitoti vaatukkhitto viya yo koci, dahaniyaa indhana.m viyaati attho. Visapattorivaati visagatabhaajana.m viya. Aggito katoti aggito a"ngaarato apagato kato, visassa lesampi asesetvaa apaniito vinaasitoti attho. 386. Out of a charcoal pit (i"ngaalakuyaa) means: out of a pit of coals (a"ngaara-kaasuyaa). Jumped out (ujjhito) means: like whatever is blow up by the wind. Like the fuel of a fire. That is the meaning. Like a bowl of poison (visa-patto-r-iva) means: like (viya) a vessel connected with poison. It is made to be like fire means: it is made to be like fire, burning coals that go away. It has been removed, driven out, without leaving behind even a drop of poison. That is the meaning. verse: 389. "Yassaa siyaa apaccavekkhita.m, satthaa vaa anupaasito siyaa; tva.m taadisika.m palobhaya, jaananti.m so ima.m viha~n~nasi. 387. It should be someone who has not closely examined [phenomena], or it should be [someone] who has not served the Teacher; you should seduce someone like that. [If you seduce] one who knows you, you will suffer distress. Yassaa siyaa apaccavekkhitanti yassaa itthiyaa ida.m khandhapa~ncaka.m ~naa.nena appa.tivekkhita.m apari~n~naata.m siyaa. Sattaa vaa anusaasito siyaati sattaa vaa dhammasariirassa adassanena yassaa itthiyaa ananusaasito siyaa. Tva.m taadisika.m palobhayaati, aavuso, tva.m tathaaruupa.m aparimadditasa"nkhaara.m apaccavekkhitalokuttaradhamma.m kaamehi palobhaya upagaccha. Jaananti.m so ima.m viha~n~nasiiti so tva.m pavatti.m nivatti~nca yaathaavato jaananti.m pa.tividdhasacca.m ima.m subha.m bhikkhuni.m aagamma viha~n~nasi, sampati aayati~nca vighaata.m dukkha.m aapajjasi. 387. It should be someone who has not closely examined [phenomena] means: it should be someone who is a woman who has not thoroughly understood, who has not examined with knowledge this group of five aggregates. Or it should be [someone] who has not served the Teacher means: or it should be whatever woman has not served the Teacher through not having seen the embodiment of the Doctrine [ie, the Buddha]. You should seduce someone like that (taadisika.m) means: friend, you approach and seduce by means of sensual pleasures someone (tathaa-rupa.m) who has not crushed the formations, who has not closely examined supramundane mental states. [If you seduce] one who knows, you will suffer distress means: having approached this Bhikkhunii Subhaa who has realized the truth, who truly knows the occurrence and disappearance [of phenomena], you will suffer distress now and in the future, you will experience pain and distress. === to be continued, connie #79883 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 5:46 am Subject: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, (DC & all), > > --- Alex wrote: > > Regarding Cessation attainment. It is one of the ways towards > > Arahatship which, BTW, Ven. Sariputta has used. Considering the > > frequency of Arahatship mentioned after emerging with wisdom from > > Cessation, it is obviously a very valid path. > ... > S: There are no cittas arising during cessation attainment, therefore no wisdom or other skilful states. So it is the wisdom, the insight into dhammas, prior to and after emerging from cessation, rather than cessation itself which is the 'way' or path towards even higher insight in the case of the anagami only. >>> Of course. When one is in Cessation, there are no mental states. The value lies in the path towards it and in seeing with wisdom as one emerges from cessation. > > There are some helpful notes in the Compendium Manual of Abhidhamma (CMA), > edited by B.Bodhi. Here's one, the guide to Ch IX, 43: > > "The attainment of cessation is a meditative attainment in which the > stream of consciousness and mental factors is completely cut off > temporarily. It can be obtained only by non-returners and Arahants who >>> I don't remember reading in the suttas that Cessation is only for non- returners. > > "To enter cessation the meditator must attain each jhaana in proper > sequence After emerging from each one, he contemplates its factors as impermanent, suffering, and non-self. In this manner the procedure is > carried as far as the base of nothingness. >>> In the suttas it does NOT seem that one has to emerge from the Jhanas. You can contemplate WHILE in the Jhana (on a non-verbial level from 2nd Jhana only). > S: Even when we read such details about mastery and the meditator, we > should remember that all dhammas are conditioned, all dhammas are anatta. >>> Of course. Lots of Metta, Alex #79884 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 12:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah (and James) - In a message dated 12/7/2007 6:41:06 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: >You are taking the teaching of anatta to an > extreme which doesn't correspond with what the Buddha taught. ... S: I'm just picking up on this point because it reminds me of a comment a friend made off-list recently as well about 'extreme views' of anatta. I think that any accusations of taking 'anatta to an extreme' are a great compliment. No one can appreciate how really 'extreme' the teaching of anatta is as the Buddha and the arahants. As I just quoted, Sariputta recalled "the past states, which had ceased and changed, thus: 'So indeed, these states, not having been come into being; having been, they vanish." ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is never a problem with an extreme of true understanding (which is "your" extreme for the most part, IMO), but as for "extremes" in general," how to evaluate them depends on the exact nature of those particular extremes. Involvement in the welfare of others, for example, is good, but involvement that has become obsessional is not, and goes beyond the behavioral middle way. Knowing that eating comes down to nothing but a series of rupas and accompanying namas is good knowledge, but letting the knowledge that eating as a thing-in-itself, like all concepts, is illusion lead to not taking sustenance is an extreme that is "unhealthy" to say the least and goes beyond the behavioral middle way. When "emptiness" is viewed as "nothingness," that is taking "emptiness" to an unhealthy and incorrect extreme that goes beyond the existential middle way. When "existence" is solidified to "self-existence" that is an unhealthy extreme that goes beyond the existential middle way. And when a (correct) understanding of "anatta" as impersonality, insubstantiality, lack of own-being, and uncontrollability is taken to the point that intentional influence is deemed impossible despite clear and constant evidence to the contrary, and consequently no efforts are made to achieve anything worthwhile, that is an unhealthy extreme that goes beyond the middle way. --------------------------------------------------------- S: And that's it! There is nothing in life except the different 'states', different namas and rupas vanishing as soon as they've arisen. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That is true, but there are at least two related caveats: One is that these phenomena lack self-existence, being utterly dependent on other empty phenomena, and are thus not to be viewed as self-existent entities. A second is that these phenomena "hang together" in a multiplicity of interrelationships, creating patterns that make much of our conceptualization valid and provide a genuine basis for countenancing conventional objects, provided they are not misunderstood. ----------------------------------------------------------- Just because we reflect on such comments or reflect on how there really aren't any people, no "I" at all, doesn't mean there is no self-view. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: And going in the opposite direction: Truly believing in "no people" in a nihilistic manner, an incorrect "extreme", amounts to insanity. ----------------------------------------------------------- However, the point in our thread was that unless we consider carefully what the realities are now, how there really is no "I" to will anything, right understanding will never incline towards the heart of the Buddha's teachings. Metta, Sarah p.s Thanks to you and Nina for your kind responses to my dhamma sharing with little Owen yesterday. I'll let you know if there's a sequel. It really was delightful. At one point he heard me on the recording asking a question. He was quite puzzled and looked up to see if my lips were moving! A very unusual child from a 'simple', village background. ================================ With metta, Howard #79885 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 6:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] - Nirodha truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > S: So it was the insight into the dhammas (the namas or rupas PRIOR to nirodha samapatti) that led to the attainment of arahantship. He fully penetrated those dhammas as conditioned, as anicca, dukkha and anatta and the last perversions of taking what is dukkha for sukkha (including the > highest jhana states, magga and phala cittas or any becoming of any kind) were totally eradicated. > .... Yes, generally it is correct. 1st) A lot of wisdom is required for that sort of letting go of everything. 2nd) It is interesting how he developed that wisdom (found in MN111 and another sutta about him Fanning the Buddha. I forgot which number it was). > S: I would say it shows the extraordinary wisdom and attainments of the Buddha's key disciples. Again, I repeat, it was the highest insight into conditioned dhammas that led to complete release from any extremely subtle remnants of attachment. > ***** > **** Yes. And it is also important to know HOW he did it. > S: Back to the other points: > > Alex: >Liberation through wisdom requires 4 Jhana's + Arupa's + Cessation. > ... > S: I don't think so. Are you saying that when Visakkha became a sotapanna as a 7 year old child that she had attained the highest jhanas and nirodha samapatti? >>> First of all, even the 4th Jhana can last for a split second. AN1.397 2nd) Do we know the full story of her? Including her past life history? 3rd) Does cessation have to last 7 days? How short can it last? 4th) I've just noticed that you said that she became a sotapanna. I was talking about Liberation through wisdom (which is Arahatship). BTW. A certain Saydaw says that cessation can lead to Sotapannaship... > ... > > Paññavimutti Sutta AN 9.44 > > [Udayin:] "'Released through discernment, released through > > discernment,' it is said. To what extent is one described by the > > Blessed One as released through discernment?" > > > > [Ananda:] "There is the case, my friend, where a monk, withdrawn from > > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in > > the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied > > by directed thought & evaluation. And he knows it through > > discernment. It is to this extent that one is described by the > > Blessed One as released through discernment, though with a sequel. > ... > S: Other texts make it very clear that in the case of the Sukkha- vipassaka > (Dry Insight worker), there are no prior jhanas to enlightenment. [See > 'Dry Insight' in U.P.] > .... NO ARUPA JHANAS. No Ariyahood without Noble 8Fold Path! 4th Jhana is part of it. As I've said before, it can last a short time (1 s). > > Not always! It can be motivated by Compassion! If lets say an Arahant > > knows that someone is going to kill him/her then if there is no other > > choice an Arahant may try to prevent that person from commiting such > > grave Kamma. Since not all Arahants possess super powers, could it > > happen that as a last resort, out of the compassion for the killer, > > an Arahant would take own life (so that the killer wouldn't go to > > hell)? > .... > S: Why did the Buddha not take his own life then when Devadatta was about > to hurl the stone at him which the Buddha knew would send him to hell for > aeons? >>>> One of the reasons was that him staying was of more benefit for more people. 2nd) Buddha rejected his will to live because Ananda didn't beg him to. While technically this isn't suicide, it is close to this. His order was falling apart, monks were getting worse and worse, his health was deteriorating... > ... > S: You're extemely familiar with the suttas. Show me one example of an arahant who committed suicide out of compassion. Impossible! No attachment> to sensuous objects at all. >>>> Good question re: out of compassion. I'll have to check this. Few points: MahaMogallana being expert at psychic powers hid from his future killers. Some say that Buddha died to show the Anicca of Everything (including Buddha himself). Generally speaking, Buddha could have remained alive for the rest of the kappa(?) but he chose not to. This could have been motivated out of compassion. Could it? Also couldn't chief disciples, for ex: Sariputta extend his lifespan? He chose not to and achieved parinibbana in his mother house where he helped her to achieve sotapanaship. Lots of Metta, Alex #79886 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 6:54 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 5, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Satipatthåna is not concentration or trying to focus on a specific reality. There are so many pittfalls by which we mistake for satipatthåna what is not satipatthåna. For example, we experience for a moment just sound, no other reality and then we believe that this is satipatthåna. However, akusala citta with attachment can also experience the paramattha dhamma that is sound. Acharn Sujin spoke about hardness that can be experienced by different types of citta. She said that we all notice when something hard impinges on the bodysense, that also a child can notice this. Body-consciousness experiences hardness, it is vipåkacitta, result of kamma, and this citta is not accompanied by awareness. One may fix one's attention with lobha on a paramattha dhamma such as hardness , but that is not satipatthåna. Or there maybe a moment of sati and then quickly after that there is again lobha trying to hold on to the object. Cittas arise and pass away so fast. Paññå must be very keen to discern all those different moments. We are likely to have many misconceptions of what sati is. We forget that sati falls away in splitseconds, just like all other conditioned realities. Do we believe that sati does not fall away and, while it is lasting, that it can be aware now of this reality and then of that reality? We may have intellectual understanding of the fact that sati falls away immediately, but, unknowingly, we may still tend to hold on to sati as if it could last. We take sati for self and that is a hindrance to its arising. Listening to the Dhamma and considering what we heard can condition the arising of sati. It depends on someone's accumulated inclinations how deeply he will consider what he hears. Nobody can control the arising of mindfulness, it all depends on the accumulated conditions for it. Nobody can control the object of mindfulness either. As we were often reminded: nobody can choose to see, nobody can choose to hear, nobody can choose to have sati. It will arise when there are the right conditions. We may try to have conditions as a support for paññå but this is motivated by clinging to the concept of self. Acharn Sujin stressed that we need more understanding of the truth of non-self as a firm foundation that can condition the arising of right awareness. She said: "When a characteristic of a reality appears, do we just remember the name of that reality, or is there sati arising because of its own conditions? A reality such as seeing may appear, but it appears for a very short time, and then it falls away. Sati arises for a very short moment and then it falls away. Sati that is aware without trying to focus on a reality is right awareness. But the clinging to the concept of self comes in between all the time. It is very difficult to become detached from it. Gradually we can become familiar with the different characteristics that appear." ***** Nina. #79887 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 7:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin,,,the wound nilovg Hi Howard, Op 6-dec-2007, om 21:56 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm completely in favor of listening and contemplating. It's very > important. > --------------------------------------------------- > > We cannot "do" anything to > hasten it. > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > ;-) The listening and considering is already "doing something"! > ---------------------------------------------- > N: Seen from this angle, the citta is active, you are right. > Bhavanaa is kusala kamma and kamma is action, also volition. > Important though is knowing this: is the citta kusala or is it > akusala with clinging and wrong view. When there are conditions for > the arising of satipatthana pa~n~naa will come to know this precisely. ---------- > There is a season for everything. > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Under the heavens. :-) ------- N: Yes, I was thinking unconsciously of a Bible text, but I do not know which one. Lodewijk said he would like to hear you as cantor, so would I, and attend the ceremony, but New York is too far for us. Something from your post to Sarah: --------- H: And when a (correct) understanding of "anatta" as impersonality, insubstantiality, lack of own-being, and uncontrollability is taken to the point that intentional influence is deemed impossible despite clear and constant evidence to the contrary, and consequently no efforts are made to achieve anything worthwhile, that is an unhealthy extreme that goes beyond the middle way. --------- N: Intention or cetanaa impossible? No. But anatta is to be applied to intention, and this may be difficult when one is carried away by what one is doing, finding this very important. Very human that this happens. Kh Sujin had some poignant reminders: when asking a Dhamma question and thinking over the answer, it may be all the time: I understand, I do not understand. As you said, this is unavoidable; true, but if this is never realized it cannot be eradicated. But I must confess that this is a difficult point for me to fully understand. I think I raise more questions about this to wise persons. As I wrote in my Preserving the Buddha's Teachings today, there are many pittfals in the development of satipatthana. If we have understood that holding on to a characteristic that appears is not helpful, if we try to focus on a reality it is not helpful, this will be a condition for avoiding the wrong Path. Nina. #79888 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 7:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, discussion with Lodewijk. nilovg Dear Elaine, Op 7-dec-2007, om 3:24 heeft shennieca het volgende geschreven: > I hope wisdom will grow by 'reading' about anatta. But how does > wisdom grow by reading the same passage (about anatta) again and > again? Did the Buddha recommend reading a lot of suttas, especially > the Anattalakkhana sutta?? ------- N: At that time there was only listening, no books with suttas. Not only reading and listening are conditions, also asking questions and considering again and again, so that understanding can grow little by little. --------- > > E: I agree with Lodewijk - there is no need to repeat anatta so many > times. :-)) --------- N: He meant that the way it was presented did not help him. Not the teaching and repeating of anatta itself. -------- > > E: The basic understanding of anatta is good enough for now. It is > better to strive towards the realization of anatta by doing > something, like meditating. > We cannot say a person meditates because of wrong view. The person > meditates because the conditions for meditation have arisen. ------- N: Whatever we do or think has conditions. Pondering over this helps the understanding of anatta, at least in theory. ------- > E: When the > person starts meditating, maybe it starts with a self-view. But > hopefully at the end of the session, s/he will realize the real not- > self. S/he will experience the mind that is wide and expansive, where > all elements merge and become the same (maybe something like that, I > don't know). ------- N: When there is a wrong start it cannot become right, I believe. All elements the same? I do not think so. There are nama elements and rupa elements and when you read suttas you will see their variety and the different ways they are classified. For example in Middle Length Sayings, dhatu vibhangasutta, analysis of the elements. ----------- > > E: Actually, I've never heard any Buddhist teachers say that > meditation > is wrong-view. Does KS say that meditation is wrong-view? ------ N: No, how could meditation itself be wrong view? It is the citta that undertakes it which may be accompanied by wrong view. You use the word meditation and this word is interpreted in different ways and it can give rise to misunderstandings. I prefer the word bhaavana, mental development, which includes: study of the Dhamma, samatha and vipassana. ------ Nina. #79889 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 2:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin,,,the wound upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/7/2007 10:19:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Lodewijk said he would like to hear you as cantor, so would I, and attend the ceremony, but New York is too far for us. ============================== Ah, were it only closer! I'd love to have you both there! :-) With metta, Howard #79890 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 7:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et nilovg Dear Sarah, yes please, I am very interested in this child. Nina. Op 7-dec-2007, om 12:40 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Thanks to you and Nina for your kind responses to my dhamma sharing > with little Owen yesterday. I'll let you know if there's a sequel. #79891 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) moellerdieter Hi Jon, ' Thanks for the link. As you say, a good selection. And the notes are quite useful too. (However, I find the BB translation (CDB), with its extensive commentary notes and indices, to be in a class of its own.)' D: do you mean by ' CDB ' a 'CDBB' ( CD by BB ) ? ;-) I am very grateful for that what is on-line available.. with Metta Dieter #79892 From: Dieter Möller Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 9:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) moellerdieter Hi Jon, you wrote: 'In other words what I was saying, and what I understand you to be disagreeing with, was that: (a) not only the characteristic of anatta but also the characteristics of anicca and dukkha gradually become known as insight is developed, and (b) not only the characteristic of anatta but also the characteristics of anicca and dukkha are not *fully* penetrated until arahantship is attained. But I'm not sure from your subsequent post which of these 2 propositions were you disagreeing with, and why. Grateful if you could elaborate on your "Not really the same" answer above. The issue could be put another way: Is there something special about the characteristic of anatta, and the understanding of that characteristic, within the teachings that is not shared by the other 2 general characteristics of anicca and dukkha? D: I thought we you understood eachother: (D: I think (the relation of) anicca and dukkha are rather obvious, whereas anatta is is 'veiled' ... Without anicca and dukkha we wouldn't really care for anatta , would we ? J: I agree more or less with your comments here. But I thought we were discussing a somewhat different point. ) I do not see the different point. There is something special about anatta: whereas anicca and dukkha can be accepted as facts of life and most people do so , arranging themselves with samsara if not clinging to annihilistic view (when I am dead, I am dead' ) , the issue of anatta goes much deeper , needs examination, khanda analysis , seeing the conditioning (D.O.) , hence providing the necessary insight for detachment, letting go.. because of clinging to self such a long time Though the 3 wisdoms are interrelated and ultimate truths , anatta needs a far more difficult process of realisation ( by the path training). Whereas anicca and dukkha may be clearly seen far below the Arahat state , anatta is finally unveiled /completed only at this level.. so, not the same , is it? with Metta Dieter #79893 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 10:01 am Subject: Re: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha dcwijeratna Hi alex, I have some difficulties in following this discussion. I must start by saying that I do not understand these jhaanas, not having experienced them. From what I have read I recall that nirodha samaapatti is the last of of the aruupa jhaanas. It is also called sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha. That is both perception and feeling are gone. That is the yogi doesn't feel or know. The yogi comes out of that samaadhi, he reflect on the experience of norodha. Then his mind gets detached from all vedanaa. [di.t.the di.t.tha matta.m...] That is he becomes an arahant. This is an extremely difficult way of getting to the state of the arahant. The usual method appears to have been the combined samatha-vipassana; then one goes through the stream-enterer, oncce-returner, non-returner and the arahant process. But each attainment seems to follow the attainment of 4th Jhaana. But there is no vipassana only way. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79894 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 10:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3rd noble truth dcwijeratna Hi Anna & Sarah There is one thing I wish to clarify. An arahant is just "kusala"--what I mean is lobha, dosa, moha are gone. But alobha, adosa and amoha are there. These are dhammas without measure (appamaana dhammaa): The reason is the Arahants amoha is gone. So he acts out of compassion--really he teaches the dhamma (sabba daana.m dhamma daana.m jinaati), but does not collect any merits or kamma on account of them. Hope I have been able to clarify the perception. In the above sense there is a difference between the perception of the arahant, and a non-arahant. So please don't misunderstand my statement "perceives just like a human being." D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79895 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 10:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dcwijeratna Hi Charles, The word Dhamma-cakkhu is defined for example in Vinaya Mahaavagga in the following manner. "viraja.m, viitamal.m, Dhamma-cakkhu.m udapaadi. ya.m kinci samudaya dhamma.m, sabba.m ta.m nirodha dhamma.m." dustless, stainless, Dhamma-Eye (vision) arose: what ever is subject to arising is subject of ceasing. Really your realization of anicca. (Realization and not understanding or insight or any other word.) Really you become an ariya with this. Not necessarily a stream-enterer. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79896 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 10:59 am Subject: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha truth_aerator Hi DC, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Hi alex, From what I have read I recall that nirodha samaapatti is the last of of the aruupa jhaanas. >>> Technically I don't think that it belongs to "Arupa" Jhanas. It is distinct from Jhanas. >> It is also called sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha. That is both perception and feeling are gone. That is the yogi doesn't feel or know. The yogi comes out of that samaadhi, he reflect on the experience of norodha. Then his mind gets detached from all vedanaa. [di.t.the di.t.tha matta.m...] That is he becomes an arahant. >>> Yes. Exactly. >>>>>>> This is an extremely difficult way of getting to the state of the arahant. >>>> It is an effort worth making. As someone has said: "staying in samsara is MORE difficult" my paraphrase. Also Sariputta reached it in 14 days. MahaMoggalana in 7 days... They probably were not the only ones. In fact a standard line of achieving Sotapanaship implies to me a split second 'weak' Nirodha Samapatti or some similiar event.. >>> The usual method appears to have been the combined samatha-vipassana; then one goes through the stream-enterer, oncce-returner, non- returner and the arahant process. But each attainment seems to follow the attainment of 4th Jhaana. But there is no vipassana only way. > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna >>>> It seems to me that this division of "insight" and "absorbtion" is a later misunderstanding. Of course if you (mis)define Jhana as "hear nothing, see nothing, know nothing trance" then it is true - it doesn't "lead" to Nibbana. However insight & tranquility go hand in hand- it is called "Jhana". Also another often mentioned way towards Arahatship is mentioned in about 1/3 of DN . It involves getting to 4th Jhana and getting all 3 Knowledges. So the sure fire "paths" for Arahatship: a) Reach Nirodha b) 4th Jhana + knowledges. There is also a 3rd path, of insight: c) reach up to 4th Jhana and through wisdom liberate oneself. Susima Sutta, and maybe Bahiya sutta. And of course remember conditionality, tilakkhana, etc. Lots of Metta, Alex #79897 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 2:04 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dacostacharles HI Wijeratna, I don't really follow you. By ariya, do you mean "noble?" Either way, the criteria for the title stream-enterer is quite relative. So yes, depending on your view/understanding the term, it may or may not apply. I accept a very simple criterion for this level - Taking Refuge and the practice of the 3 precepts. Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DC Wijeratna Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 19:25 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy Hi Charles, The word Dhamma-cakkhu is defined for example in Vinaya Mahaavagga in the following manner. "viraja.m, viitamal.m, Dhamma-cakkhu.m udapaadi. ya.m kinci samudaya dhamma.m, sabba.m ta.m nirodha dhamma.m." dustless, stainless, Dhamma-Eye (vision) arose: what ever is subject to arising is subject of ceasing. Really your realization of anicca. (Realization and not understanding or insight or any other word.) Really you become an ariya with this. Not necessarily a stream-enterer. D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79898 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 3:47 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (46) nichiconn Dear All, The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Chapter 8 The Perfection of Determination. The Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" defines the perfection of determination, adi.t.thaana, as follows: "Determination has the characteristic of determining upon the requisites of enlightenment {*}; its function is to overcome their opposites; its manifestation is unshakeableness in that task; the requisites of enlightenment are its proximate cause." {*} These are the ten perfections. Determining upon the requisites of enlightenment means, having the firm determination to develop the ten perfections. The perfection of determination, adi.t.thaana paaramii, is the firm determination to realize the four noble Truths, even though one has to go a long way and it will take an endlessly long time to reach the goal. However, if one develops the Path with firm determination one will eventually reach the goal. Determination in this life means determination to develop each kind of kusala with the aim to realize the four noble Truths. We should not deviate from this goal by aiming for the pleasant objects of gain, honour, praise and wellbeing, or visible object, sound, odour, flavour and tangible object. In that case, we would accumulate clinging instead of giving up and abandoning. The perfection of determination will lead to detachment from desire for sense objects. If we are infatuated with the sense objects, if we are deluded by them and cling to them, we shall wish to have them again and again and we shall never be satisfied. Then we shall not be inclined to develop the perfections in order to eradicate defilements. Many different types of citta arise and fall away: kusala cittas arise and shortly afterwards akusala cittas arise. Sometimes we have determination for kusala citta but when akusala citta arises and induces us to give in to akusala, we easily give up kusala and we pursue akusala. This shows that we need firm determination for the eradication of defilements. ..to be continued, connie #79899 From: han tun Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 4:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (46) hantun1 To Sarah, Connie, Nina and All, The text: Determination in this life means determination to develop each kind of kusala with the aim to realize the four noble Truths. -------------------- Sarah (in message #79877): After quoting excerpts from CMA on the attainment of cessation: Sarah: Even when we read such details about mastery and the meditator, we should remember that all dhammas are conditioned, all dhammas are anatta. It always depends entirely on conditions at any moment what namas and rupas will arise. -------------------- Han: If all dhammas are conditioned and all dhammas are anatta,and if it always depends entirely on conditions at any moment what namas and rupas will arise, how can one then cultivate a determination in this life to develop each kind of kusala with the aim to realize the four noble Truths? Respectfully, Han #79900 From: "Andrew" Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 10:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. corvus121 Hi again DC Thanks for the reply. I have some comments below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > DC: Re. "As I understand the theory of Abhidhamma, nama and rupa are intertwined/ interdependent in our plane of existence. And it is nama that experiences, not rupa. And nama *creates* rupa." Yes, that is where Abhidhamma is not in accordance with the Dhamma-the Buddha's teaching. In Dhamma, there is Naamaruupa (NR). It is a single unit. You cannot separate naama from ruupa. Because we human beings can't see it (naama). I don't know whether even arahants can. It is like two dimensions of some thing. Andrew: I am nowhere close to being expert on Abhidhamma, but what you have written above is to my understanding the same as Abhidhamma i.e. the "single unit" of experience (although we have to be careful using words like 'units' lest they become little 'egos' - but I know what you are saying) and the inseparability. The various namas and rupas are ways of describing the various aspects or characteristics of real experience. The characteristics are experiencable but not separable - like eating the spicy soup: only the fool says 'now I am tasting salt now cumin now coriander ...' I agree with your countryman, Dr Jayasuriya, that Abhidhamma is meant to be an aid to weaken our illusions of permanency and self. Not a belief system to cling to or a means of making extravagant claims about our experiences. In its proper place and properly understood, it is an extremely valuable part of the Dhamma, in my opinion. > DC: "And nama *creates* rupa." Well vi~n~naa.na.m paccayaa naamaruupa paccayaa vi~n~naana.m. (DO). So it is not a one-way street. {Consciousness conditions the mindbody and vice versa). Andrew: Good point. > DC: Abhidhamma really is a misguided attempt to explain the Dhamma, and a total failure. In Abhidhamma, citta, cetasika, ruupa and Nibbana are all paramatthadhammas. What is it that is common about this lot to be classed together? citta, cetasika and ruupa we expereince in sa"nsaara, nibbaana we don't. But since they are all paramattha dhammas sa"nsaara is same as nibbaana!!! Andrew: It's a paradox indeed, but perhaps not that surprising when you think about it. After all, the Buddha spent 45 years post- nibbana talking, walking, eating, defecating and doing all manner of 'samsara-like' things!! DC: This citta here is a mere name. Citta always arises with at least some cetasikas. You can't separate them. So citta is really another name. It is attaa. That is why abhidhamma marks the beginning of what is called the absolutist tendencies. Today, in the scholarly world nobody takes these things seriously except as later "development/corruptions" of the teaching of the Buddha. Andrew: No, you can't separate citta from its cetasikas as I understand it. They are characteristics of the single experience. Again, my understanding of Abhidhamma seems to be in accord with your comments! Am I missing something? I would also like to hear your comments if possible about the SN verse I previously cited re the Buddha's instructions to Dhammadinna. Has it been poorly translated? Am I understanding its meaning correctly? Is it a corrupted part of the suttas that modern scholarship has debunked? Bye for now Andrew #79901 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 12:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (46) nilovg Dear Han. I appreciate your input. We shall miss you after Dec. 15. Op 8-dec-2007, om 1:56 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > If all dhammas are conditioned and all dhammas are > anatta,and if it always depends entirely on conditions > at any moment what namas and rupas will arise, how can > one then cultivate a determination in this life to > develop each kind of kusala with the aim to realize > the four noble Truths? ------- N: You have a point. We listen and we read about the Bodhisatta who had such firm determination. Cause and effect are being explained to us. We read: Reading this may help us to see the disadvantage of being infatuated by sense objects. It helps us to see the benefit of the development of each kind of kusala through body, speech and mind for which there is an opportunity. We come to see the disadvantage of ignorance that is deluding us. Considering all this is a favorable condition for the accumulation of the perfection of determination. Determination is also anatta, and it can arise when there are conditions for it. What do your Burmese books say about determination? Nina. #79902 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Dec 7, 2007 4:33 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,216 Vism.XVII,217 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 216. Life and in lifetime food as well, Conditions five in threefold way; These five, the sixth in sixfold way; Basis, the sixth in fivefold way. 217. But in rebirth-linking and in the course of an existence the material life [faculty] is a condition in three ways, as presence, non-disappearance, and faculty conditions, for these five beginning with the eye. Nutriment too is a condition in three ways, as presence, non-disappearance, and nutriment conditions, and that is so in the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking, and applies when the bodies of beings subsisting on nutriment are suffused with the nutriment. In the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking , those five bases beginning with the eye are conditions in six ways, as support, prenascence, faculty, dissociation, presence and non-disappearance conditions, for [that part of] the sixth, the mind base, comprising eye-, ear-, tongue-, and body-consciousness. But in the course of an existence, not at rebirth-linking, the materiality of the [heart-] basis is a condition in five ways, as support, prenascence, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the remaining mind base apart from the five consciousnesses. This is how it should be understood what bases materiality alone is a condition for in rebirth-linking and in the course of an existence, and how it is a condition. ************************** 216. tidhaa jiivitametesa.m, aahaaro ca pavattiya.m. taaneva chadhaa cha.t.thassa, vatthu tasseva pa~ncadhaa.. 217. etesa.m pana cakkhaadiina.m pa~ncanna.m pa.tisandhiya.m pavatte ca atthi avigataindriyavasena ruupajiivita.m tidhaa paccayo hoti. aahaaro ca atthiavigataahaaravasena tividhaa paccayo hoti, so ca kho ye sattaa aahaaruupajiivino, tesa.m aahaaraanugate kaaye pavattiya.myeva, no pa.tisandhiya.m. taani pana pa~nca cakkhaayatanaadiini cha.t.thassa cakkhusotaghaanajivhaakaayavi~n~naa.nasa"nkhaatassa manaayatanassa nissayapurejaataindriyavippayuttaatthiavigatavasena chahaakaarehi paccayaa honti pavatte, no pa.tisandhiya.m. .thapetvaa pana pa~ncavi~n~naa.naani tasseva avasesamanaayatanassa vatthuruupa.m nissayapurejaatavippayuttaatthiavigatavasena pa~ncadhaa paccayo hoti pavatteyeva, no pa.tisandhiya.m. eva.m ruupameva pa.tisandhiya.m pavatte vaa yassa yassa aayatanassa paccayo hoti, yathaa ca paccayo hoti, tathaa veditabba.m. #79903 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 3:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (46) hantun1 Dear Nina (Sarah, Connie and others), Thank you very much for your kind response. I am seeking clarification only on the following remark by Sarah vis-à-vis the Text from the Perfection of Determination: “If all dhammas are conditioned and all dhammas are anatta,and if it always depends entirely on conditions at any moment what namas and rupas will arise, how can one then cultivate a determination in this life to develop each kind of kusala with the aim to realize the four noble Truths?” In all fairness to Sarah, her remark was not on this thread, but on another thread. So, if her remark is not applicable to the Perfection of Determination, my question is null and void. As I am not seeking clarification on other aspects of the Text, your explanation is acceptable to me. But your concluding remark: “Considering all this is a favorable condition for the accumulation of the perfection of determination. Determination is also anatta, and it can arise when there are conditions for it.” is more less the same as Sarah’s remarks. I will not quote Burmese book because I am not competent to translate Burmese into English. So I will quote excerpts from the following book. A Treatise on the Paramis, from the Commentary to the Cariyapitaka, by Acariya Dhammapala, and translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel409.html (iv) What is their sequence? (8) Determination is stated immediately after truthfulness; (a) because truthfulness is perfected by determination, since abstinence (from falsehood) becomes perfect in one whose determination is unshakeable; (b) having first shown non-deception in speech, to show next unshakeable commitment to one's word, for a bodhisattva devoted to truth proceeds to fulfill his vows of giving, etc., without wavering; and (c) to show, right after the veracity of knowledge, the complete accumulation of the requisites of enlightenment (bodhisambhaara); for one who knows things as they really are determines upon the requisites of enlightenment and brings them to completion by refusing to vacillate in the face of their opposites. (v) What are their characteristics, functions, manifestations, and proximate causes? (8) Determination has the characteristic of determining upon the requisites of enlightenment; its function is to overcome their opposites; its manifestation is unshakeableness in that task; the requisites of enlightenment are its proximate cause. (vi) What is their condition? (8) The perfection of determination should be reviewed thus: "Without firmly undertaking the practice of giving (and the other paaramiis), maintaining an unshakeable determination in the encounter with their opposites, and practicing them with constancy and vigor, the bases of enlightenment — i.e., the requisites such as giving, etc. — do not arise." -------------------- Han: Taking into consideration of the above quotes, my personal opinion is that a Bodhisatta must *act* for the Perfections (of all paramis, not only for the Determination), and not wait for the favorable conditions for the accumulations for the perfection of determination. He must have unshakeable determination and efforts, and should not be hindered by the fact that the Determination is also anatta, and it can arise only when there are conditions for it. Well, this is the subject we have discussed several times, and maintained our positions all throughout our discussions. Other members must be fed up with it. If it were a gramophone record, the groves on the record must be very deep by now, by repeating the same thing by both sides again and again. But please kindly remember that I respect you and I would like to agree with you as much as I can. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han. > I appreciate your input. We shall miss you after > Dec. 15. #79904 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 2:58 am Subject: Careful or Careless? bhikkhu0 Friends: Careless Neglect Looses All while Careful Alertness Wins All! At Savatthi the Blessed One once said this: I will teach you, friends, about the one who lives negligent, & about the one who lives alert. Listen cautiously and pay full attention to it! How, friends, does one lives Negligent? In him, friends, who lives with an uncontrolled ability to see, the mind is agitated & warped by the objects recognizable by the eye. In him whose mind is agitated & warped, there is no satisfaction...! Without satisfaction, there is no joy! Where there is no joy, there is no content, no calm, no tranquillity, & no mental peace… Without this calm one lives in sorrow, frustrated, urging, and searching! Such sorrowful one’s mind is neither composed, nor collected, nor confident.. When the mind is not composed, one has neither any clarity, nor any certainty...! Through not having any clear ideas, one is reckoned as one who lives negligent... One is rightly regarded as confused. So also it is for one who lives without any control over the ability to hear, smell, taste, touch or over the ability to think… And how, friends, does one lives Alert? In him, friends, who lives with a fully self-controlled ability to see, the mind is neither agitated nor warped by any object recognizable by the eye. In one, whose mind is neither agitated nor warped, sweet satisfaction is born...! In one satisfied, joy is born. When one is joyful, the body is calmed down. He, whose body is calmed, feels at ease. Composed is mind of one, who is at ease. When the mind is composed, one’s ideas are clear. One has certainty & confidence! Through having clear ideas, one is reckoned as one who lives alert; as one who is aware! So also it is for any one who lives with full control over the ability to hear, smell, taste, touch or controlling the ability to think. Thus, friends, is one who lives in alertness. Source: Samyutta Nikaya: On the 6 Senses. Yeah ... not seduced by the mere glitter of sensation of any kind, not running after fancy dreams, driven by hopes or compelled longing, but unhankering, satisfied by whatever there is, thus at ease, stilled, one remains just calm, clear and cool... Like a Smiling Mountain :-) Friendship is the Greatest Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka <...> #79905 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:23 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy jonoabb Hi Alex Alex wrote: > Hi Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > But I > >> But I >> would say that anatta, as a characteristic of the khandhas, etc, is >> something to be *realised*, and that such realisation occurs by >> virtue of the development of insight (panna). >> > > Yes. One must follow the N8P rather than being content with mere book > learning. > Well that goes for the whole of the teachings, not just the teaching on anatta. So why single out anatta as a 'strategy'? In what way is anatta a strategy that, say, anicca and dukkha are not? >> I don't read the texts as talking about "putting anatta into >> action". Would you mind saying a word or two about what you >> mean by this. >> > > N8P for example, deeper levels of Jhana. > If "putting anatta into action" means the same as developing the N8P, then where does the idea of "putting anatta into action" come from (is it found in the texts)? >> The idea of anatta being "used" as a "strategy" in this respect is >> not one I've come across in the texts. Please say a few words about >> this, as you see it. >> > > It is sutta after sutta after sutta. Anatta is not a speculation but > a fact of existence that needs to be realized to remove dukha. > Agreed that anatta is in the suttas and is to be realised. But this thread started because of your support for the characterisation of anatta as a 'tool' or 'strategy'. To say that anatta needs to be realised doesn't seem to explain that characterisation, since the same could be said for the rest of the teachings too. Jon #79906 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:28 am Subject: Re: CDB (was, Report on the Meeting ...) jonoabb Hi Dieter 'CDB' stands for 'The Connected Discourses of the Buddha', the BB translation of Samyutta Nikaya, published by Wisdom. Not on-line, I'm afraid, but at US$60 from Amazon (US$76 list price) extremely good value in my opinion because of its size (the whole of SN, 2000+ pages), scope (includes many notes from the commentaries, a Pali glossary, comprehensive indices and much useful material in the extensive introductory notes) and quality (excellent translation, with notes on many of the terms used). Well worth having! Jon PS: 1. Publisher's blurb: http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display.lasso?-KeyValue=32810&-Token.Action=&ima\ ge=1 2. Amazon (with sample pages) to browse: http://www.amazon.com/Connected-Discourses-Buddha-Translation-Samyutta/dp/086171\ 3311 3. Companion volume MLDB (Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha) also a good buy, for much the same reasons. Dieter Möller wrote: > Hi Jon, > > ' Thanks for the link. As you say, a good selection. And the notes are quite useful too. (However, I find the BB translation (CDB), with its extensive commentary notes and indices, to be in a class of its own.)' > > D: do you mean by ' CDB ' a 'CDBB' ( CD by BB ) ? ;-) > I am very grateful for that what is on-line available.. > > with Metta Dieter > #79907 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:51 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Khun Sujin's explanations. jonoabb Hi Robert A You may have thought you were signing-off with this post of yours, but ... ;-)) Robert wrote: > My point is that, in the end, you must get your nose out of > the books and bringing the teachings to your life. > Yes, understanding is not "in the book". No question about that. But I think familiarity with what's in the books (i.e., with the teachings as a whole) is necessary in order to know whether what we hear from other sources about the practice is in accordance with the teachings. As regards the teachings being relevant to one's (present moment) life, that of course I also agree with. I would say the difference between us is not that of 'nose in the books' (me) vs. 'teachings experienced in real life' (you), but as to exactly what the Buddha meant when he talked about developing the path, about 'practice'. Each of us is 'practising' in the sense of applying/relating our understanding of the teachings to our life, and each thinks that progress along the path is being made. > When I was a very > young man, I suddenly found myself as a soldier in Vietnam. I am very > sure that I could have read a hundred books about what it is like to be a > young American kid in that situation, and I would not have known what > it was like in the way that I did by living it day by day. Reading about it > just isn't the same. No disagreement here. But then, no-one is saying that book knowledge is the goal or any part of the goal of the teachings; only that familiarity with the teachings at an intellectual level is a necessary prerequisite to the correct development of the path. Going with your analogy, I would say that as far as the development of worldly skills (such as soldiering, the one you mention here) is concerned, there is first instruction, then training or practice, and finally implementation or the actual 'doing'. In the texts, the idiom is somewhat different. A person in training (a trainee, Pali: 'sekha') is one who is developing the path and has already attained stream-entry (he is a trainee in the sense of not having yet reached the final goal). Those of us who are not even at the first stage of enlightenment are 'uninstructed', because we have not sufficiently 'got it' yet. The 3-fold 'training' (sikkhaa) of sila, samadhi and panna mentioned in the suttas refers to actual arisings of such forms of kusala, and not to activities or attempts that fall short of them. In the same vein, 'practice' as used in the texts means the actual arising of insight/understanding, rather than the doing of something that is merely preparatory to the 'real thing'. This may at first seem strange, but we should not forget that even in common usage 'practice' also has the meaning of implementation, as in 'to put into practice' or a doctor *practising* medicine. I think an understanding of the idiom of the suttas is helpful in evaluating things we hear from other sources about the practice. > So, it could be that working with our experience is > tricky ands with many ways to go astray, but there is no alternative. > You have to do the best you can, make mistakes, and keep working with > it. That is all you can do. > As I said earlier, there is no disagreement on the point that the teachings are to be realised in one's life; an intellectually appreciation of the teachings is only a first step. The idea of learning by one's mistakes, however, is a risky one, I think. The problem is that it is the nature of wrong view to be convinced that it's right ;-)). > I wish you well with your practice, however you chose to define it. > Since you ask then ;-)), a quick definition of 'practice' as I understand the teachings. The term 'practice' simply means: a moment or series of moments of understanding (weak or strong, beginning level or advanced) of the true nature of a presently arising dhamma. Jon PS Interesting that you were a soldier in Vietnam. Makes us about the same vintage, I suppose. I wonder if you got to Thailand during that time (there was a big US military presence there when I arrived in 1973). #79908 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 6:22 am Subject: Vism.XVII,216 Vism.XVII,217 nichiconn Dear friends, Tidhaa jiivitametesa.m, aahaaro ca pavattiya.m; taaneva chadhaa cha.t.thassa, vatthu tasseva pa~ncadhaa. PPn xvii, 216. Life and in lifetime food as well, Conditions five in threefold way; These five, the sixth in sixfold way; Basis, the sixth in fivefold way. {PoP p.677} To them threefold are life and sustenance In procedure. Sixfold are they to sixth, Of which the fivefold cause is heart-basis. Etesa.m pana cakkhaadiina.m pa~ncanna.m pa.tisandhiya.m pavatte ca atthi avigata-indriyavasena ruupajiivita.m tidhaa paccayo hoti. Aahaaro ca atthi-avigataahaaravasena tividhaa paccayo hoti, so ca kho ye sattaa aahaaruupajiivino, tesa.m aahaaraanugate kaaye pavattiya.myeva, no pa.tisandhiya.m. Taani pana pa~nca cakkhaayatanaadiini cha.t.thassa cakkhu sotaghaanajivhaakaayavi~n~naa.nasa"nkhaatassa manaayatanassa nissayapurejaata-indriyavippayutta-atthi-avigatavasena chahaakaarehi paccayaa honti pavatte, no pa.tisandhiya.m. .Thapetvaa pana pa~ncavi~n~naa.naani tasseva avasesamanaayatanassa vatthuruupa.m nissayapurejaatavippayutta-atthi-avigatavasena pa~ncadhaa paccayo hoti pavatteyeva, no pa.tisandhiya.m. Eva.m ruupameva pa.tisandhiya.m pavatte vaa yassa yassa aayatanassa paccayo hoti, yathaa ca paccayo hoti, tathaa veditabba.m. PPn xvii, 217. But in rebirth-linking and in the course of an existence the material life [faculty] is a condition in three ways, as presence, non-disappearance, and faculty, conditions, for these five beginning with the eye. Nutriment too is a condition in three ways, as presence, non-disappearance, and nutriment, condition, and that is so in the course of an existence not in rebirth-linking, and applies when the bodies of beings subsisting on nutriment are suffused with the nutriment. In the course of an existence, not in rebirth-linking, those five bases beginning with the eye are condition in six ways, as support, prenascence, faculty, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance, condition, for [that part of] the sixth, the mind base, comprising eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body, consciousness. But in the course of an existence, not at rebirth-linking, the materiality of the [heart] basis is a condition in five ways, as support, prenascence, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance, conditions, for the remaining mind base apart from the five consciousnesses. This is how it should be understood what bases materiality alone is a condition for in rebirth-linking and in the course of an existence, and how it is a condition. [565] {PoP p.677-8} At rebirth and procedure the life of matter is a cause of the five senses of the eye, etc., in three ways through presence, non-absence, controlling faculty. And sustenance is a cause in three ways through presence, non-absence, sustenance. As to the food-suffused body of those beings who live on food, it is a cause of procedure, not at rebirth. The five senses of the eye and so on are causes in six ways at procedure, not at rebirth, of the sixth sense of the mind, termed consciousness of eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, through the causes of dependence, pre-existence, controlling faculty, dissociation, presence, non-absence. Basic matter is a cause in five ways at procedure, not at rebirth, of the sense of mind, leaving out the fivefold consciousness, through the causes of dependence, pre-existence, dissociation, presence, non-absense. Thus matter should be understood according to what cause it is of whichever sense at rebirth or at procedure. == connie #79909 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 7:12 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex > Well that goes for the whole of the teachings, not just the teaching on anatta. So why single out anatta as a 'strategy'? In what way is anatta a strategy that, say, anicca and dukkha are not? >>> All of Buddha's teaching is a strategy. Where have I said that "anatta is a strategy and other things are not." ? > >> I don't read the texts as talking about "putting anatta into > >> action". Would you mind saying a word or two about what you > >> mean by this. > >> > > > > N8P for example, deeper levels of Jhana. > > > > If "putting anatta into action" means the same as developing the N8P, > then where does the idea of "putting anatta into action" come from (is it found in the texts)? >>> Yes. Removing 10 fetters for example is anatta in action. Removing 3 roots (greed, anger & delusion) is another related example. > > >> The idea of anatta being "used" as a "strategy" in this respect is not one I've come across in the texts. Please say a few words about this, as you see it. > >> > > See above paragraph: Removing 10 fetters for example is anatta in action. Removing 3 roots (greed, anger & delusion) is another related example. > > It is sutta after sutta after sutta. Anatta is not a speculation but > > a fact of existence that needs to be realized to remove dukha. > > > > Agreed that anatta is in the suttas and is to be realised. But this > thread started because of your support for the characterisation of > anatta as a 'tool' or 'strategy'. To say that anatta needs to be > realised doesn't seem to explain that characterisation, since the same could be said for the rest of the teachings too. > > Jon > You and others seem to assume that "a strategy" reject the truth of the statement which is supposed to be used. Lots of Metta, Alex #79910 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 7:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (46) nilovg Dear Han, Op 8-dec-2007, om 12:06 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: But please kindly remember that I respect you and I would like to agree with you as much as I can. ------- N: Do not agree with me, please. As Sarah often said, other views are welcome in this list. it has nothing to do with friendship and respect. Friends can disagree, and they are bound to! -------- H: Well, this is the subject we have discussed several times, and maintained our positions all throughout our discussions. Other members must be fed up with it. If it were a gramophone record, the groves on the record must be very deep by now, by repeating the same thing by both sides again and again. ------ N: Not at all, it does not matter. It is a challenge to always find other aspects. And here you are taking up another aspect, that of the Bodhisatta who is determined to take action. --------- > H: Taking into consideration of the above quotes, my > personal opinion is that a Bodhisatta must *act* for > the Perfections (of all paramis, not only for the > Determination), and not wait for the favorable > conditions for the accumulations for the perfection of > determination. He must have unshakeable determination > and efforts, and should not be hindered by the fact > that the Determination is also anatta, and it can > arise only when there are conditions for it. -------- N: We should not forget that previously he had made a vow to accumulate the perfections. Conditions were already present, as I see it. When he was Sumedha he considered each of the perfections he knew he had to accumulate during aeons. Let us not forget that it is kusala citta that is accompanied by the unshakeable determination and effort to accumulate all the perfections and not to delay this. We can learn from this example although we are worldlings, not to delay kusala, even kusala of a slight degree. The more we see conditions, the more we understand anatta. It is citta that takes action, accompanied by sobhana cetasikas. Citta moves the body to perform wholesomeness, it conditions speech to assist others in helping them, in speaking gentle and compassionate words to them. I quote from what I wrote before pertaining to Vis. XIV, 131, about the conditions for kusala citta, how it is conditioned by the accompanying cetasikas. It is citta, not a person that performs wholesome deeds, that takes wholesome action. The four favorable conditions are dwelling in a suitable country, the support of good people, right aspirations, past practice of meritorious deeds. It is beneficial to learn about the manifold conditions for kusala citta, so that we shall have more understanding of its nature of anattaa. We cannot make it arise whenever we wish, there is no self who can be master of it. > Nina. #79911 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 7:30 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 5, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin explained many times how important it is to be sincere as to one's own development. We should realize when there is satipatthåna and when there is not, we should realize what we understand already and what not yet. She stressed that it is the task of sati to be mindful of realities, not our task. If we deeply consider this, we shall be less inclined to think of sati with attachment, or to try to induce sati. By listening to the Dhamma and considering what we hear, right understanding of the way to develop satipatthåna grows, and thus, conditions are gradually accumulated for the arising of sati of satipaììhåna. When sati of satipatthåna arises and is aware of a characteristic, paññå can understand what sati is and in this way the difference can be discerned between the moment that there is sati and the moment that there is forgetfulness of realities. When sati is mindful of a reality, paññå, understanding of that characteristic, can gradually develop. Acharn Sujin reminded us many times that we should have no expectations with regard to the arising of sati and paññå: "One can live happily with regard to the development of understanding, and this can be very natural. If there is very little paññå, one sees one's own accumulations and one knows that one cannot have what has not been accumulated. Someone may dislike his accumulations, but if there is more understanding he can take life easy. When paññå arises there are no expectations, the function of paññå is detachment. If there is not enough understanding and there is desire for sati and paññå, they cannot arise. We should know, if there is interest to listen, that it is not self who has an interest, but that it arises because of conditions." When we were in Sarnath, the Head Monk, the Ven. Kahawatte Sri Sumedha, showed us great kindness and hospitality, inviting us to use his office for Dhamma discussions, and later on arranging for a "high tea" to be offered to us. While we were sitting at a long table in his office we heard every now and then the call of a bird that was kept there. When we hear sound, almost immediately we think of a concept. We should not try to avoid thinking of concepts, thinking arises naturally and it is also a kind of nåma. When we hear a bird's call or the voices of people it is natural to think of concepts, of mental images we have of animals and people. However, we do not think all the time, there are also other realities such as hearing, seeing or experiencing hardness. They arise and fall away in splitseconds, but we do not realize this and we remember concepts on account of what was perceived. Nåma and rúpa are not concepts, they are not imaginary, but they are dhammas each with their own characteristic. When a characteristic of nåma or rúpa appears, sati can be aware of them without thinking of their names. ****** Nina. #79912 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 2:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and Alex) - In a message dated 12/8/2007 8:23:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Agreed that anatta is in the suttas and is to be realised. But this thread started because of your support for the characterisation of anatta as a 'tool' or 'strategy'. To say that anatta needs to be realised doesn't seem to explain that characterisation, since the same could be said for the rest of the teachings too. ================================= As I see it, the following are all facts: 1) Anatta isn't a strategy. It is the nature of all phenomena, even including nibbana, the unconditioned (and, IMO, unconditional) reality. 2) There *is* what could be called an anatta "strategy", which is the practice (or occurrence, if you prefer, Jon) of the discovery that no condition (sankhara) we ever encounter is or has self, being impersonal, insubstantial, not alterable by will [Hardness is hardness, and can't become softness because we wish it to be], and dependent/contingent and thus without own being. 3) The repeated acts of observing noted above in 2) in a mind that has been and is being cultivated in other ways as well, seeded with the teachings and made calm and alert by right effort, mindfulness, and heightened attention (the latter of which is what I prefer to say for 'samadhi' instead of "concentration"), lead to eventual realization of anatta. With metta, Howard #79913 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy moellerdieter Hi Alex and Jon, Jon and I discussing the same issue under 'Report on the Meeting...', so I hope you do not mind my joining... I think , Alex, we quite agree on anatta , and when you say : 'You and others seem to assume that "a strategy" reject the truth of the statement which is supposed to be used. ' , you point to the previous controversy regarding Ven. Thanissaro's statement that anatta is a strategy not a metaphysical truth . Seemingly both , the Ven. and his opponents , lack to see the other side of the coin , don't they? with Metta Dieter #79914 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 8:21 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Hi Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Alex and Jon, > > Jon and I discussing the same issue under 'Report on the Meeting...', so I hope you do not mind my joining... > > I think , Alex, we quite agree on anatta , and when you say : > 'You and others seem to assume that "a strategy" reject the truth of the statement which is supposed to be used. ' , you point to the previous controversy regarding Ven. Thanissaro's statement that anatta is a strategy not a metaphysical truth . > Seemingly both , the Ven. and his opponents , lack to see the other side of the coin , don't they? > with Metta Dieter > What Venerable probably intended to say was: Anatta needs to be put into action and not to remain simply as useless, book truth. Puting anatta in action in no way refutes the truth behind anatta. Quite the opposite, the truth has to be realized. The full realization of the truth is the Arahatship which requires more than simply sitting hunched over at the table reading and speculating. We have a lot of tendency to speculate, and the Venerable was perhaps addressing this western vice. In the "Burden" sutta he also said an important points about metaphysical arguments. Perhaps with his "Anatta strategy" he was emphasizing what lead to Arahatship and trying to remove mere speculations which did and can cause schisms to occur. Lots of Metta, Alex #79915 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 12:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex and Dieter, A: "What Venerable probably intended to say was: Anatta needs to be put into action and not to remain simply as useless, book truth..." Scott: To start, a little book learning. Good for precision. Not the final arbitrator by a long shot but here's PTS PED: "Lakkha.na (nt.)...sign, characteristic, mark;...having the marks (of), characterized by, of such & such character...specific attribute, characteristic (mark). In contrast to nimitta more a substantial attribute or primary characteristic...The 3 properties (tilakkha.na.m) of existing things or of the phenomenal world are anicca, dukkha, anatta, or impermanence, suffering, unreality...abl. lakkha.nato "by or qua characteristic," "in its essential qualification," often found in exegetical analysis in Commentary style combd with var. similar terms (atthato, kamato, nimittato etc...." Scott: That which is a Characteristic, defined by the Oxford as: "[noun] a feature or quality typical of a person, place, or thing", cannot be 'put into action'. Such a statement reflects an absurdity, by which I mean to state that it is absurd ("[adjective] completely unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate"). Please, can either of you suggest in what way it might be possible to 'put into action' that which is inherent and characteristic of each and every conditioned dhamma? Sincerely, Scott. #79916 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 2:01 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex and Dieter, > > > Scott: That which is a Characteristic, defined by the Oxford as: > "[noun] a feature or quality typical of a person, place, or thing", > cannot be 'put into action'. Such a statement reflects an absurdity, > by which I mean to state that it is absurd ("[adjective] completely > unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate"). > > Please, can either of you suggest in what way it might be possible to > 'put into action' that which is inherent and characteristic of each > and every conditioned dhamma? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > I've said it many times. 10 fetters need to be removed, 3 roots cut and 3 things to be developed (sila, pa~n~na, samadhi). There IS atta delusion and it has to be dealt with. Lots of Metta, Alex #79917 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:44 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "I've said it many times. 10 fetters need to be removed, 3 roots cut and 3 things to be developed (sila, pa~n~na, samadhi). There IS atta delusion and it has to be dealt with." Scott: Repeating one's self is not discussing, as I've no doubt repeated as well. Ha ha, tedious me. I don't think the point I made earlier has been addressed in the above. That is, given that anatta is a Characteristic of conditioned dhammas, how can it be 'put into action'? Being a Characteristic, there is nothing to be done to 'put it into action' - it already is 'in action' all the time. I would think that 'atta delusion' is, among other things, rooted in ignorance and elaborated by thinking. Thinking about atta would only be thinking, hence, perhaps, the term 'delusion'. This is the same when it comes to thinking about putting anatta into action. It is only thinking, and 'delusion' as well. Sincerely, Scott. #79918 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:51 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply: > > A: "I've said it many times. 10 fetters need to be removed, 3 roots cut > and 3 things to be developed (sila, pa~n~na, samadhi). There IS atta > delusion and it has to be dealt with." > > Scott: Repeating one's self is not discussing, as I've no doubt > repeated as well. Ha ha, tedious me. > > I don't think the point I made earlier has been addressed in the > above. That is, given that anatta is a Characteristic of conditioned > dhammas, how can it be 'put into action'? Being a Characteristic, > there is nothing to be done to 'put it into action' - it already is > 'in action' all the time. >>> Before I answer above please answer: Can anatta have volition? yes or no? Lots of Metta, Alex #79919 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 5:54 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, A: "Before I answer above please answer: Can anatta have volition? yes or no?" Scott: Okay, Alex, I'll play along. No, of course not. Why? Because Volition, a mental factor, has the characteristic of anatta since it is a conditioned dhamma. Sincerely, Scott. #79920 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 6:13 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > A: "Before I answer above please answer: Can anatta have volition? > yes or no?" > > Scott: Okay, Alex, I'll play along. No, of course not. Why? Because > Volition, a mental factor, has the characteristic of anatta since it > is a conditioned dhamma. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > So, are you saing that Anatta does not have Volition? Remember, Volition is Kamma. Thus how can there be meritous, demeritous and impertubable Kamma being made where Anatta does not have any volition? Why doesn't the process disband on its own? What is taking so long? Lots of Metta, Alex #79921 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 6:31 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Now you are asking the right questions! A: "So, are you saing that Anatta does not have Volition?" Scott: Yes, and I'll say why. Volition is a cetasika - a mental factor. Anatta is a Characteristic of conditioned dhammas. It is not a mental factor. It *is* a Characteristic; it therefore cannot *have* characteristics. This being the case, it is not possible that an impersonal Characteristic should *have* Volition. Volition, cetanaa, is a conditioned dhamma, anatta is a Characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. A: "Remember, Volition is Kamma." Scott: I do. A: "Thus how can there be meritous, demeritous and impertubable Kamma being made where Anatta does not have any volition?" Scott: Because Volition, cetanaa cetasika, has the function of willing. And action bears fruit. A: "Why doesn't the process disband on its own?" Scott: It does, by conditions. A: "What is taking so long?" Scott: The Beautiful Fact that 'we' can't do anything about it!!! Sincerely, Scott. #79922 From: han tun Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 6:36 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (46) hantun1 Dear Nina, > > Han: But please kindly remember that I respect you and I would like to agree with you as much as I can. > Nina: Do not agree with me, please. As Sarah often said, other views are welcome in this list. it has nothing to do with friendship and respect. Friends can disagree, and they are bound to! Han: The culture and mental make-up of individuals vary. For me, friendship matters. Friends can disagree, but I put friendship before disagreement. -------------------- Han: I like your explanations. In particular, I have noted the following: *It is citta, not a person that performs wholesome deeds, that takes wholesome action. *It is beneficial to learn about the manifold conditions for kusala citta, so that we shall have more understanding of its nature of anattaa. We cannot make it arise whenever we wish, there is no self who can be master of it. > Han: This is not new to me. Burmese Sayadaws also say on these lines. For example, when we meditate, Sayadaws say that saddhaa and other kusala cetasikas are performing their duties. I understand that. But *my personal opinion* is that it is *me* who is doing all these kusala activities, with accompanying kusala cittas and kusala cetasikas. As you said, “Friends can disagree, and they are bound to!” So, this is the disagreement, and the disagreement is perhaps due to my irrational way of thinking, but it will not affect our friendship. Respectfully, Han --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Han, > Op 8-dec-2007, om 12:06 heeft han tun het volgende > geschreven: > But please kindly remember that I respect you and > I > would like to agree with you as much as I can. > ------- > N: Do not agree with me, please. As Sarah often > said, other views are > welcome in this list. it has nothing to do with > friendship and > respect. Friends can disagree, and they are bound > to! > -------- #79923 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 6:53 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: It *is* a Characteristic; it therefore cannot *have* > characteristics. >>> What you are saying is X cannot have X. Water cannot have water... That is a contradiction. This being the case, it is not possible that an > impersonal Characteristic should *have* Volition. Volition, cetanaa, > is a conditioned dhamma, anatta is a Characteristic of all > conditioned dhammas. > > A: "Remember, Volition is Kamma." > > Scott: I do. > > A: "Thus how can there be meritous, demeritous and impertubable Kamma > being made where Anatta does not have any volition?" > > Scott: Because Volition, cetanaa cetasika, has the function of > willing. And action bears fruit. >>> First of all "Volition has the function of willing" is a tautology that explains nothing. It is like saying "White has the function of being White". If there is no volition, then no new Kamma is formed and no new craving. Thus the process would disband (Parinibbana). However, this must be achieved, otherwise the process would have stoped A LONG TIME AGO in a galaxy far far away. > A: "Why doesn't the process disband on its own?" > > Scott: It does, by conditions. > > A: "What is taking so long?" > > Scott: The Beautiful Fact that 'we' can't do anything about it!!! > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Are you implying fatalism? Are you saying that nothing can be done to increase (and even to start the process) of disbanding? Lots of Metta, Alex #79924 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 7:51 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "What you are saying is X cannot have X. Water cannot have water...That is a contradiction." Scott: No, not a contradiction. You've not understood. You aren't yet appreciating the difference between a Characteristic - anatta - and that which has this Characteristic - any conditioned dhamma. A: "First of all "Volition has the function of willing" is a tautology that explains nothing. It is like saying 'White has the function of being White'." Scott: You are lost without Abhidhamma clarification. You don't yet appreciate what a mental factor is. You seem stuck with the notion that Someone has to be Willing or there can be no Willing. Look, from Dhammasa"nga.nii (pp. 7-8): "What on that occasion is volition (cetanaa)? The volition, purpose, purposefulness, which is born of contact with the appropriate element of representative intellection - that is the volition that there then is." Scott: A tautology is "a proposition that is already true by definition." While often used to deride something as nonsensical, in this case, since Volition has anatta as Characteristic, that which it 'is' is that which it 'does', since there is no Doer. As you know, anatta is one the the three universal characteristics of all conditioned dhammas. Now you need to re-consider Characteristic. Atthasalinii (p. 84) states: "To expand: As regards characteristics, etc., the specific or generic attributes of these, or those states, are termed 'characteristics' (lakkha.na.m)." Scott: Volition has the Characteristic of anatta, and, as its 'own characteritics', those attributes described above. A: "If there is no volition, then no new Kamma is formed and no new craving. Thus the process would disband (Parinibbana). However, this must be achieved, otherwise the process would have stoped A LONG TIME AGO in a galaxy far far away." Scott: There is Volition, Alex. See above. There is simply no one who Wills. A: "Are you implying fatalism? Are you saying that nothing can be done to increase (and even to start the process) of disbanding?" Scott: No, Alex. You are still thinking in terms of a person who can do something. You need to understand that anatta means that dhammas are insusceptible to mastery and cannot be controlled. I'm saying that No One can do anything. I'm not saying that mental development doesn't occur. Of course it does. Totally by Conditions and completely without the Influence of a Person. Sincerely, Scott. #79925 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 3:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Scott) - In a message dated 12/8/2007 9:13:34 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > A: "Before I answer above please answer: Can anatta have volition? > yes or no?" > > Scott: Okay, Alex, I'll play along. No, of course not. Why? Because > Volition, a mental factor, has the characteristic of anatta since it > is a conditioned dhamma. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > So, are you saing that Anatta does not have Volition? Remember, Volition is Kamma. Thus how can there be meritous, demeritous and impertubable Kamma being made where Anatta does not have any volition? Why doesn't the process disband on its own? What is taking so long? Lots of Metta, Alex ================================= Alex, you're really confusing me! Anatta (or, better, anattata) is a characteristic of phenomena. It doesn't "do" anything, and it doesn't "have" anything. It is the property of lacking self/core/soul. Properties don't do things or have things - they are characteristics of things. Does "old" have volition? Does "straight" have volition? These make as much sense. With metta, Howard #79926 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 9:06 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (71) nichiconn dear friends, Part 16 14. Ti.msanipaato 1. Subhaajiivakambavanikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa verse: 390. "Mayha~nhi akku.t.thavandite, sukhadukkhe ca satii upa.t.thitaa; sa"nkhatamasubhanti jaaniya, sabbattheva mano na limpati. 388. For my mindfulness is established in the midst of both reviling and praise, happiness and pain. Knowing that conditioned states are disgusting, my mind does not cling to anything at all. Idaanissa vighaataapattita.m kaara.navibhaavanena dassentii "mayha.m hii"ti-aadimaaha. Tattha hiiti hetu-atthe nipaato. Akku.t.thavanditeti akkose vandanaaya ca. Sukhadukkheti sukhe ca dukkhe ca, i.t.thaani.t.thavisayasamaayoge vaa. Satii upa.t.thitaati paccavekkha.nayuttaa sati sabbakaala.m upa.t.thitaa. Sa"nkhatamasubhanti jaaniyaati tebhuumaka.m sa"nkhaaragata.m kilesaasucipagghara.nena asubhanti ~natvaa. Sabbatthevaati sabbasmi.myeva bhavattaye mayha.m mano ta.nhaalepaadinaa na upalimpati. 388. Now, showing the explanation of the cause of his state of distress, she speaks [the verse] beginning For my [mindfulness]. There, the word hi ("for") is a particle in the sense of cause. Reviling and praise means: abuse and respect. Happiness and pain (sukha-dukkhe) means: happiness (sukhe) and pain (dukkhe). Or it is a combination of sense objects that are agreeable and disagreeable. [My] mindfulness is established means: mindfulness (sati) is continuously established due to reviewing. Knowing (jaaniya) that conditioned states (sa"nkhata.m) are disgusting means: knowing (~natvaa) that the realm of conditioned states (sa"nkhaara-gata.m) in the three planes [of existence] is disgusting because of the oozing impurity of the defilements. Anything at all (sabbatth' eva) means: knowing (~natvaa) that the realm of conditioned states (sa"nkhaara-gata.m) in the three planes [of existence] is disgusting because of the oozing impurity of the defilements. Anything at all (sabbatth' eva) means: anything at all (sabbasmi.m yeva) in the three states of existence. My mind does not cling to the attachments such as craving. 391. "Saaha.m sugatassa saavikaa, magga.t.tha"ngikayaanayaayinii; uddha.tasallaa anaasavaa, su~n~naagaaragataa ramaamaha.m. 389. I am a disciple of the Sublime One, travelling in the eightfold vehicle that is the path. With my dart drawn out, without taints, gone to a place of solitude, I rejoice. Magga.t.tha"ngikayaanayaayiniiti a.t.tha"ngikamaggasa"nkhaatena ariyayaanena nibbaanapura.m yaayinii upagataa. Uddha.tasallaati attano santaanato samuddha.taraagaadisallaa. 389. Travelling in the eightfold vehicle that is the path (magg'-a.t.tha"ngika-yaayinii) means: travelling (yaayinii), going to the city of quenching in the noble vehicle (ariya-yaanena) that is called the eightfold path. With my dart drawn out (uddha.ta sallaa) means: with the dart of passion, etc, pulled out (samuddha.ta-raagaadi-sallaa) of my own continuity. == to be continued, connie #79927 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 9:06 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (47) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 8: The Perfection of Determination. continued... If we want to realize the four noble Truths we should see the benefit of being unshakeable in the development of kusala dhammas and the abandonment of defilements. If we lack the perfection of determination, kusala dhammas cannot develop. Now I wish to speak about the life of the Bodhisatta during which he developed the highest degree of the perfection of determination, the paramatthapaaramii (ultimate perfection) of adi.t.thaana {*}. {*} The ten perfections can also be classified as thirty paaramiis: ten basic paaramiis, ten intermediate paaramiis and ten ultimate paaramiis (paramatthapaaramii). We read in the Commentary to the "Basket of Conduct" (III. 6, Conduct of Wise Temiya) {*} that the Buddha related one of his past lives: "When I was the son of the king of Kaasi, I was named Muuga-Pakkha (meaning deaf and cripple), but people called me Temiya {**}. My father and mother and other people called me Muuga-Pakkha because they considered me dumb and cripple. As the Bodhisatta (born) in that life, I caused great rapture and joy to the king and the ministers and therefore I received the name Temiya." {*} Jaataka no. 538, Muugapakkha Jaataka. {**} Temiya means wet. On the day of his birth a great shower of rain made him wet. Thus, he had two names, Temiya and Muuga-Pakkha, because of different reasons. We read: "During that life king Kaasiraajaa ruled in Vaaraanasii. He had sixteen thousand wives, but not one of them conceived either son or daughter. The citizens were worried, saying, 'Our king has no son to keep up his lineage', and they begged the king to pray for a son. All those wives worshipped the moon, but they obtained no children. Now his chief queen Candaadevii, the daughter of the king of Maddas, was leading a virtuous life and the king asked her also to pray for a son. On the day of the full moon she observed the Uposatha vows and while she reflected on her virtuous life she made an act of truth, saying, 'If I have never transgressed siila, may by this assertion of truth a son be borne to me.' ..to be continued, connie #79928 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 9:51 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Khun Sujin's explanations. avalo1968 Hello Jon, One should learn the teachings. On this we agree, but for me, these are the basic teachings of Buddhism - the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path, Dependent Origination and Kamma, the precepts and the perfections, the five hindrances and the five aggregates, etc. For you, I am sure it is much more. The other is this thing about practice. In the end, we won't agree here. We both will happily continue to do what we do. If I say what I practice is things like generousity and patience, trying to keep the precepts, and other things like meditation to calm and quiet my mind, I don't see how this is not a useful thing to do. So, this is what I do. It all seems pretty simple to me. Yes, I did make it to Thailand back in those days, although I was there a little earlier than you. I went there as a civilian after I got out of the army. I loved it there. I have only been back once since then, but am sure I will go again sometime in the future. With metta, Robert A. #79929 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 11:33 pm Subject: Hi Alex and Scott! / re: Anatta as a strategy reverendagga... Well, i'm back from Burma! i'm temple hoping in Bangkok for a while! It might intrest the both of you to take a look at a posting of mine dated Nov.19 2007.The title of the posting was ... A late night in Penang/you're not really reading this... The qualitive circumstances of heat and water... strike water for "wetness". also there was a miscredit given to Howard,it was T.G. The second posting of the same name and date corrected the spelling of the word "abhidhamma". The actual core proposition of the posting was not addressed by anyone. The cause,as i gave it was commented on,but not the actual core proposition or the unfortunate result as discussed. i believe that this is because while the result is unfortunate for myself and others...not everybody would concur! May the Buddha's, Deva and Angel's bless ALL of you! bhikkhu aggacitto/aka reverend aggacitto #79930 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro sarahprocter... Dear Sunil. --- Sunil Khanolkar wrote: > I am in mid-forties, married. Basically a chemical engineer and a cost > accountant by profession. Presently work as project consultant and also > as Bank/finance related field. > > Stay in Pune, Maharashtra (India). ... S: Thanks for this info. You might be interested to see Ramesh's intro: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/73126 He's also an engineer from Pune with a keen interest in dhamma. You seem to be skilled in many areas, Sunil. We had hoped to meet Ramesh on our recent trip to Buddhist sites in India. Unfortunately, it didn't work out. Anyway, look forward to hearing more about your studies and interest in Dhamma. How do you find it helps you with your work? Can there be a growth of Right Understanding at any time in your opinion? Metta, Sarah ========= #79931 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 8, 2007 11:51 pm Subject: Re: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > > "The attainment of cessation is a meditative attainment in which the > > stream of consciousness and mental factors is completely cut off > > temporarily. It can be obtained only by non-returners and Arahants > who > >>> > > I don't remember reading in the suttas that Cessation is only for non- > returners. ... S: For arahants also. The Vism gives lots of details in XXIII. This is why we say, it's difficult to read the suttas without a lot of understanding and knowledge of Abhidhamma. You find me one example in the suttas of a worldling/sotapanna/sakadagami who has attained to such a state. Impossible! ... > > "To enter cessation the meditator must attain each jhaana in proper > > sequence After emerging from each one, he contemplates its factors > as impermanent, suffering, and non-self. In this manner the procedure > is > > carried as far as the base of nothingness. > >>> > > In the suttas it does NOT seem that one has to emerge from the > Jhanas. You can contemplate WHILE in the Jhana (on a non-verbial > level from 2nd Jhana only). .... S: What can be understood or contemplated whilst in Jhana? Surely only the nimitta appearing as object. The understanding of the ti-lakkhana of dhammas can only occur at moments of insight, not at moments of jhana cittas. It is in the subesequent reviewing consciousness that the jhana factors are understood and vipassana cittas may arise. Metta, Sarah ======== #79932 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 12:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] - Nirodha sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Alex wrote: > > S: So it was the insight into the dhammas (the namas or rupas PRIOR > to nirodha samapatti) that led to the attainment of arahantship. He > fully penetrated those dhammas as conditioned, as anicca, dukkha and > anatta and the last perversions of taking what is dukkha for sukkha > (including the > highest jhana states, magga and phala cittas or any > becoming of any kind) were totally eradicated. > > .... > > Yes, generally it is correct. > 1st) A lot of wisdom is required for that sort of letting go of > everything. ... S: Yes, wisdom (pa~n~naa) is the key word. ... > > 2nd) It is interesting how he developed that wisdom (found in MN111 > and another sutta about him Fanning the Buddha. I forgot which number > it was). ... S: Diighanakha Sutta, MN 74 .... > BTW. A certain Saydaw says that cessation can lead to Sotapannaship... ... S: A certain Sayadaw is mistaken. Show me the text! ... > > S: Other texts make it very clear that in the case of the Sukkha- > vipassaka > > (Dry Insight worker), there are no prior jhanas to enlightenment. > [See > > 'Dry Insight' in U.P.] > > .... > > NO ARUPA JHANAS. No Ariyahood without Noble 8Fold Path! 4th Jhana > is part of it. As I've said before, it can last a short time (1 s). ... S: I agree, 'no ariyahood without Noble 8Fold Path!' 4th Jhana is not part of it. What the texts make clear is that the concentration accompanying the NEF lokuttara cittas is of a degree equivalent to the jhana attained immediately prior to the arising of the lokuttara cittas. If no jhana was attained prior to the arising of the lokuttara cittas (as for the majority), then the samma samadhi of the lokuttara cittas is equivalent in strength to 1st jhana on account of the object, nibbana. ..... <...> > > S: Why did the Buddha not take his own life then when Devadatta was > about > > to hurl the stone at him which the Buddha knew would send him to > hell for > > aeons? > >>>> > > One of the reasons was that him staying was of more benefit for more > people. > > 2nd) Buddha rejected his will to live because Ananda didn't beg him > to. While technically this isn't suicide, it is close to this. His > order was falling apart, monks were getting worse and worse, his > health was deteriorating... .... S: I would say the reason that the Buddha lived as long as he did - not less and not more was simply because of many compex conditions, including past kamma and natural decisive support conditions. This is just how it is for anyone, for any stream of cittas. It's never a question of a Self willing anything. .... <..> > Few points: > MahaMogallana being expert at psychic powers hid from his future > killers. > > Some say that Buddha died to show the Anicca of Everything (including > Buddha himself). Generally speaking, Buddha could have remained alive > for the rest of the kappa(?) but he chose not to. This could have > been motivated out of compassion. Could it? ... S: As I said, conditions. Some Buddhas live much, much longer than others. ... > > Also couldn't chief disciples, for ex: Sariputta extend his lifespan? > He chose not to and achieved parinibbana in his mother house where he > helped her to achieve sotapanaship. ... S: He knew the time was up. No one can prevent past kamma bringing its result when the conditions are in place. Not Buddha, not Sariputta. Metta, Sarah ======== #79933 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 12:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 3rd noble truth sarahprocter... Hi DC, (& Anna) Thanks for your clarification. Understood. --- DC Wijeratna wrote: > There is one thing I wish to clarify. An arahant is just "kusala"--what > I mean is lobha, dosa, moha are gone. ... S: I understand what you mean here, but strictly speaking, there is no kusala in the case of an arahant. Only kiriya (inoperative) cittas. So sobhana (beautiful) mental factors, as you say, but not kusala. ... >But alobha, adosa and amoha are > there. These are dhammas without measure (appamaana dhammaa): The reason > is the Arahants amoha is gone. ... S: Again, I may be nit-picking here, but I understand the appama~n~naa (illimitables) just refer to the 4 brahma-viharas of mettaa, karu.naa, muditaa and upekkhaa. Not to amoha. ... >So he acts out of compassion--really he > teaches the dhamma (sabba daana.m dhamma daana.m jinaati), but does not > collect any merits or kamma on account of them. ... S: Yes, well put. ... >Hope I have been able to > clarify the perception. In the above sense there is a difference between > the perception of the arahant, and a non-arahant. So please don't > misunderstand my statement "perceives just like a human being." ... S: A good clarification and this is what I had understood you mean the first time as well. Thanks again for the time you took to give a detailed explanation to Anna on her question initially. Metta, Sarah ========= #79934 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 12:23 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (46) sarahprocter... Dear Han, --- han tun wrote: > To Sarah, Connie, Nina and All, > > The text: > Determination in this life means determination to > develop each kind of kusala with the aim to realize > the four noble Truths. ... S: When there is more and more understanding of the value of kusala with such an aim, such determination arises with it *by conditions*. This is why it is right understanding that leads to the development of the path. When there is right understanding, the perfections develop too because there is a true appreciation of their value. ... > Sarah (in message #79877): > After quoting excerpts from CMA on the attainment of > cessation: > Sarah: Even when we read such details about mastery > and the meditator, we should remember that all dhammas > are conditioned, all dhammas are anatta. It always > depends entirely on conditions at any moment what > namas and rupas will arise. .... S: I wrote this to stress that it's not a question of deciding to attain jhanas, deciding to attain mastery or particular skill in jhanas. Furthermore, when we read about the 'meditator', we need to appreciate that this is shorthand for particular cittas and cetasikas at moments of bhaavanaa, moments of right understanding. The law of conditioned dhammas applies to the arising of every single dhamma (other than anatta), regardless of whether we're referring to the jhanaalaabhii, to the Buddha, to Sariputta or anyone else. ..... > Han: > If all dhammas are conditioned and all dhammas are > anatta,and if it always depends entirely on conditions > at any moment what namas and rupas will arise, how can > one then cultivate a determination in this life to > develop each kind of kusala with the aim to realize > the four noble Truths? ... S: "ONE" cannot do anything. No "One". However, by appreciating and understanding more about the 4NT, about the danger of attachment to what is impermanent and unsatisfactory in particular and by understanding more and more about namas and rupas at the present moment, there will inevitably be a growthi in right understanding and a growth in determination to follow the path. This will be in spite of attachment to Self and attachment to having the Perfections develop. It will also be in spite of the big hindrance of an idea of Self being determined to reach such a goal. Thanks as always for your feedback. Keep firing, Han! No chance of our friendship being adversely affected:-)). Metta, Sarah ======= #79935 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 1:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. sarahprocter... Hi Andrew & DC, Enjoying your discussion. Just on this point: --- Andrew wrote: > DC: This citta here is a mere name. Citta always arises with at least > some cetasikas. You can't separate them. So citta is really another > name. It is attaa. That is why abhidhamma marks the beginning of what > is called the absolutist tendencies. Today, in the scholarly world > nobody takes these things seriously except as > later "development/corruptions" of the teaching of the Buddha. > > Andrew: No, you can't separate citta from its cetasikas as I > understand it. They are characteristics of the single experience. > Again, my understanding of Abhidhamma seems to be in accord with your > comments! Am I missing something? ... S: Whilst every citta is always accompanied by at least 7 cetasikas, they each have their specific characteristics which can be known by the (very) wise. DC, citta is not attaa. With our very limited understanding, it is impossible to separate the ingredients of the soup and know each precisely as it is. However, for the Buddha and his wisest of disciples, it would be very clear. No confusion at all. Of course, citta often refers to 'citta and cetasikas'. Even so, it's not attaa, DC. Am I missing something now? Also, looking forward to your comments on the instructions to Dhammadinna which Andrew asked about and the continuation of your discussion together. Just ignore this note if I have missed the point. Metta, Sarah ========= #79936 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner: Mahaa Sutasoma Jaataka sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, --- han tun wrote: <..> > Now, I will present a jaataka where the Bodhisatta > acted according to what he had said, i.e., he kept his > promise even risking his own life. This is Mahaa > Sutasoma Jaataka (no. 537). ... S: Thank you very much for sharing this fine Jataka (#79757) ... > (3) 'The splendid royal chariots, once so > beautiful, grow old and decay, but the teaching of the > wise is ageless and never changes, this is what the > wise talk about among themselves.' ... S: This is why it makes no sense to talk of a need of 'adaptations' of the Teachings to meet modern circusmstances and so on. 'The teaching of the wise is ageles and never changes.' ... > Han: This Jaataka shows how Mahaa Sutasoma and > Porisaada kept their promises they had given. Mahaa > Sutasoma had kept his promise even risking his own > life. For this ‘Truthfulness’, there was a happy > ending to the story. ... S: Yes, a very happy ending.....by conditions:-)) Metta, Sarah ======= #79937 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (46) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I really enjoy reading your posts. Whether I agree with you or not, I like the way you explain things. You are a genius! No more questions! And no chance of our friendship being adversely affected:-)) I know that you stick to your guns like I want to stick to mine. Like me, when you believe in something, nothing and no one can argue you out of that. I remember you wrote to James, “I think that any accusations of taking 'anatta to an extreme' are a great compliment.” No one can say anything more to you after that! I am not firing, believe me, it is a sincere compliment to your intelligence! Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Thanks as always for your feedback. Keep firing, > Han! No chance of our > friendship being adversely affected:-)). > Metta, > Sarah > ======= #79938 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Any Suttas describing Buddha eating Meat? sarahprocter... Hi Clive, Welcome to DSG! I believe the following was your first message here as well: --- clive123za wrote: Chris:> > The husbandry of animals during the Buddha's time could not compare > > with the appalling cruelty of modern Factory Farming methods - the > > latest being that it is more cost-effective to actually tear the > > large animal apart while alive rather than render it unconscious or > > kill it first. <...> Clive:> What you say here is shocking. Where did you read that animals are > killed this way? > My main reason for not eating meat is the way in which the animals > are treated simply as 'product'. My decision is also informed by the > precepts but hypocritically I do eat fish. > My philosophy is that if I want to eat it, I must be prepared to kill > it myself. .... S: I understand your philosophy, but wonder if you appreciate how it is different from the 'philosophy' as taught by the Buddha and the reasons for this difference? Please let me know if you'd like to discuss this further. Also, I'd be interested to know where you live and anything further about your interest in Buddhism. Can we say that there will always be killing just as there will always be ignorance? Metta, Sarah ======= #79939 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 2:22 am Subject: SACHIN- was [Re: Angulimala] sarahprocter... Hi Sachin, Also, welcome here! --- Sachin Sarate wrote: > Before enlightenment there was no wisdom... it was sheer ignorance... > there was only darkness. > > If light enters a dark room... the darkness has to leave... > So as enlightenment generates in a mind... ignorance has to leave... no > need to get converted to Buddhism... follow the Dhamma!!! .... S: As Mike suggested, please add anything further or any text you find useful. We'd like to hear more from you. I agree that about following the Dhamma and like the metaphor to the light entering the dark room. We read about this in the texts. It is the nature of pa~n~naa. Belatedly, I'm just wondering if you are Phra Kom and his sister Val's friend in Bangkok? She mentioned to me before that she'd like an extra copy of the "Perfections" to give to her friend, Sachin. She also said she was going to give Sachin the details of DSG. Is it you? Did you receive a copy of the book? I know that when Sukin and I looked we had trouble finding any left at the Foundation. Please let me know. Look forward to hearing anything more from you. Metta, Sarah p.s All - Pls remember to sign off with your name and make it clear who is being addressed. ======== #79940 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 2:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner: Mahaa Sutasoma Jaataka hantun1 Dear Sarah, Yes, by conditions:>)) Han #79941 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 3:17 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: vipaka. Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Hi Han (Ken O & Alex), > >Han: I accept that accumulation of kusala and akusala is of > > a very great consequence, but I find it difficult to > > accept that vipaakas are very brief and > > inconsequential. > > KO: Vipaka means result of kamma. A result of kamma cannot at the > same time be accumulating kamma because this would mean it is an > endless cycle. <...> .... S: I thought Ken O made helpful comments here and also in #78826. As I wrote before, the moments of vipaka, such as seeing consciousness and hearing consciousness are transitory cittas which don't hurt or harm or lead to bad results or bad accumulations. I compared them with akusala cittas arising in countless processes which accumulate and which may bring further akusala vipaka in future. I'd like to stress that inconsequential or insignificant in the sense of not accumulating, not producing new vipaka, does not mean it isn't essential to know and understand these dhammas, such as seeing or hearing consciousness. Indeed, it is by understanding them for what they are, insignificant elements, not *my* good and bad fortune as we are used to thinking, that they will not longer be thought of as the cause of our problems. For example, Nina gave the example of a great loss of a dear person affecting our whole life. We need to appreciate the moments of seeing and hearing are very brief and that what we consider as the great loss for the most part is really in our thinking with sadness. We live alone with these and other cittas even now as we speak. We take the dosa for being vipaka, result of kamma all the time. We think we're so unfortunate, but don't appreciate that it is the defilements causing the problems. It's very difficult to 'go with the flow', but of course it comes back to the understanding of dhammas, of elements at this moment again. Back to the second arrow again. I agree with you that vipaka cittas are consequential in the sense of being a condition for defilements to arise by being object and as being the precursor for many mind-door processes subsequently. You gave a good quote in this regard from SN27.3: Vinnana Sutta. However, it is because of finding the sense-door experiences to be of such importance, such consequence that there is so much attachment and so little detachment towards them. By appreciating their transitory and inconsequential nature, there will gradually be less proliferating, less dependence on the worldly conditions as there is now. Usually we live in a world of long stories, without any understanding of seeing, hearing, visible object, sound, feelings and other dhammas. However, with the growth of panna, I think it becomes more apparent that what we find so very important are just these inconsequential, insignificant elements arising and falling away, not belonging to anyone and not in anyone's control. Metta, Sarah As Alex recently quoted (in conventional language here, of course)to stress the importance of virtue and right views: "Monks, there are these five kinds of loss. Which five? Loss of relatives, loss of wealth, loss through disease, loss in terms of virtue, loss in terms of views. It's not by reason of loss of relatives, loss of wealth, or loss through disease that beings — with the break-up of the body, after death — reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. It's by reason of loss in terms of virtue and loss in terms of views that beings — with the break-up of the body, after death — reappear in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. These are the five kinds of loss." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.130.than.html#los s5 ======= #79942 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 3:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) sarahprocter... Dear Han, You go away soon and my mother arrives tomorrow, so I'll be rather busy looking after her, hence the last minute rush to respond belatedly to your messages to me. Actually, we don't even have a guest room so Jon and I'll be sleeping on the living room floor for this time and Jon will still be working, so it'll all be fun, but rather like camping... I meant to thank you for your interesting report on pre- and post- war Burma in terms of the lay Buddhist way of life. It sounded as thought the farmers in the old days enjoyed a very peaceful retirement assisting at the temples, listening to and reading Dhamma. --- han tun wrote: > But now the time has changed. I will not go into > detail, because you know what it will be like in any > other Theravaada country at present. > > What I said for me was I was in the middle. I want to > go the simpler way of pre-War period, and also I want > to go according of the present day practice, but not > very successful in either way. > > Does it answer your question? ... S: I'd like to know more about; a) what you mean by successful b) whether the actual practice as you see it is really so different, in spite of the changed circumstances. Can you relate this to the verse from the Jataka: > (3) 'The splendid royal chariots, once so > beautiful, grow old and decay, but the teaching of the > wise is ageless and never changes, this is what the > wise talk about among themselves.' c) What about in terms of the Vinnana Sutta, SN 27:3, I just referred to which you'd quoted. When we read about desires with regard to sense objects and dhammas to be known, do the circumstances make any/much difference, do you think? Looking forward to further discussion when you return if not before, Han. I really appreciate all your kind attention. I particularly enjoyed the discussion session and morning with you at the Foundation when we were last in Bangkok and all your excellent and thought-provoking posts from it. Your recall and consideration was outstanding. Metta, Sarah ============ #79943 From: "dsgmods" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 3:55 am Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) dsgmods Dear Han, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (1) > > Dear All, > > Topic: Too much emphasis on anatta and no-person. ... S: This was a great and accurate report (#78021). Just a couple of brief comments: ... > All these facts were put before Khun Sujin for her > comments. When I said I cannot help considering that > it is `I' who is meditating in front of the home > altar, she agreed that no one can help it. [It is a > bit of a consolation!] .... S: !! ... >However, as regards, the seven > steps of Visuddhimagga, she said that pa~n~naa is > necessary for each of the steps, and that it is not > strictly sequential. There is a back-looping [the word > coined by me], and the higher visuddhimagga steps can > also support the lower steps. ... S: I thought the point being stressed was that the lower 'steps' or visuddhis (purifications) are not abandoned when the higher visuddhis are attained. They continue to support the higher visuddhis. (In other words, not exactly like in a relay race wherein one person drops out after passing on the baton). ... >And even for the very > first step of purification of virtue, the right view > and the right understanding or pa~n~naa is needed. In > this way, she refuted my reasoning given in my message > # 76362. ... S: Yes, even for the purification of sila, there has to be very strong and developed panna. That's why we can keep the precepts for so long by tradition or folklore or imitation. However, without the development of satipatthana, sooner or later when circumstances change, the precepts will be broken again. .... > Agreeing with her that right view and right > understanding or pa~n~naa is needed in every step of > visuddhimagga, I asked her how can I develop pa~n~naa? > She said that pa~n~naa is the understanding of the > realities with right awareness (samma sati). She asked > me what is sati? Is it real or concept? I could not > answer. She said that sati without understanding is > just a concept, and there must be `conditions' for > sati to arise. > > I cannot draw any conclusion out of this discussion. > Perhaps Sarah and Jon might be able to do it. ... S: I think she was indicating that there has to be an understanding of what sati is and what the objects of sati are. This is the only way it will develop. If we take the panna and sati for self or think about 'I' developing them with attachment, there won't be the conditions for sati and panna to grow. ... >For me > it does not really matter. As I said earlier, I use > both `no-Han' approach and `yes-Han' approach, > depending on the situation. ... S: ;-) I know, the rebel again.... I know I'm not saying anything new in any of these messages and you just enjoy (and do a great job at) stirring up the waters;-). As Nina repeats, we'll all miss you! Metta, Sarah ======= #79944 From: "dsgmods" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 4:04 am Subject: Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3) dsgmods Dear Han, Last one for now. Again, I sincerely apologise for the long delays in my responses. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > At the Meeting I asked Khun Sujin about this. She > immediately asked me back, whether I want to climb a > mountain? I did not know what it has got to do, but I > answered, "No, I do not want to climb a mountain." She > said, "There you are!" .... S: I thought this was very interesting. Many people think they'd like to be a bodhisatta, but do they really want to climb the mountain rather than the hill? ... > Sukin explained that if I want to be at the top of the > mountain, I must put an effort and climb the mountain. > So also a Bodhisatta who wants to become a > Sammasambuddha must try very hard to have enough > "accumulations" > > I was not quite satisfied with the answer. So I > rephrased my question, and asked "Was Bodhisatta a > Sotaapanna in one of his previous lives?" > > Then Khun Sujin said, "No." > > The readers of this post may express their views on > whether Bodhisatta was a Sotaapaana in one of his > previous lives, and why or why not? > > Or, if this subject had been discussed before, Sarah > may kindly give me message numbers. ... S: You may care to take a look at the discussion in these posts sometime. Alex, too. 'Stages of Insight 2 of Bodhisatta and disciples in previous lives' #42544, 42575, 42602, 45763 There is a mistake in the last post of mine about Jotipala, but I still believe the main point: not only was the Bodhisatta not a sotapanna in previous lives, but even the vipassana nanas were most likely only attained just prior to becoming fully enlightened, a samma-sambuddha. Metta, Sarah ======== #79945 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 4:08 am Subject: Oops... a moddy slip! sarahprocter... Dear Han & all, Apologies - I sent the last 2 messages from the mods account by mistake when I couldn't find the messages I wished to respond to in my in-box anymore and went to the homepage. Pls treat them as usual messages from this address. Sarah ======= #79946 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 5:47 am Subject: Re: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha dcwijeratna Hi Alex, Thanks for the well-thought out reply. Give me a couple of days. I want to do a little research on that. But when you say "vipassana," what exactly do you mean by it? Is it different from passati? anupassati etc.? 1. I agree that nirodha samaapatti does not belong to aruupa jhaanas. I called it aruupa jhaana because it is the culmination of the aruupa path. Sometimes, I think that only Buddhas and pacceka Buddhas travel that path. Arhants would normally go through the path given in Sama~n~naphalasutta. What do you thinks? 2. Regarding the way, I am not sure whether you require "three knowledges," "six knowledges" or none of them at all. There is another doubt I have here. Let me give my view (very tentative): 3. It is of course, necessary to go to the 4th Jhaana. Then the yogi's mind is fully concentrated ON A SINGLE OBJECT. (that I think is the meaning of concentration). And he is totally detached; he has given up thinking (vitakka, vicaara); he has only upekkha--EQUANIMITY. In order to get any of the knowledges, yogi has to come out and think. That means he is not concentrated. But of course, his mind is still detached and free of all the hindrances (niivarana), and his mind is powerful (concentrated to the level of 4th Jhaana). From this point he is able to "realise" knowledges. That is a process I don't understand. The three knowledges, is a later interpretation I think. One of the reasons for my saying these things is: Ven. Konda~n~na became a sotapanna on hearing the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta. Then he became an arahant after hearing the Anattalakkhanasutta. Any way all the above stuff is just my view and I am not sure of them. What do you think? Lots of metta and muditaa, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79947 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 5:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: vipaka. Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am sorry I cannot follow most of what you have written in your post. Therefore, please allow me to say once again what I have in mind as regards vipaaka cittas. I know that vipaaka cittas such as cakkhuvinnana, sotavinnana, etc. do not directly produce any kammic results. But they are (if I may use your own words) consequential in the sense of being a condition for defilements to arise by being object and as being the precursor for many mind-door processes subsequently. That’s why I said they are not inconsequential. Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Han (Ken O & Alex), > > > >Han: I accept that accumulation of kusala and > akusala is of > > > a very great consequence, but I find it > difficult to > > > accept that vipaakas are very brief and > > > inconsequential. #79948 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 6:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) hantun1 Dear Sarah, Sarah: I'd like to know more about; a) what you mean by successful b) whether the actual practice as you see it is really so different, in spite of the changed circumstances. Can you relate this to the verse from the Jataka: > (3) 'The splendid royal chariots, once so beautiful, grow old and decay, but the teaching of the wise is ageless and never changes, this is what the wise talk about among themselves.' c) What about in terms of the Vinnana Sutta, SN 27:3, I just referred to which you'd quoted. When we read about desires with regard to sense objects and dhammas to be known, do the circumstances make any/much difference, do you think? --------------------- (a) Pre-war practice in rural Burma was that the elderly people (when they were about 60 years old) left everything behind with their children and they went to the temple almost every day and did what I have written in my previous post. Now, I want to do like that. But I cannot do. I still cannot leave everything behind and go to the temple almost every day. I still have to look after my children and grand-children. I still have to continue *working* not in the office, but in daily worldly activities. So I am not successful in that sense. If I follow modern day practice I should go to 10 day retreats or approach a really good teacher for guidance. I cannot do these things either. So I also fail in this type of practice. I am not here, I am not there, and I am lost in the middle. That’s what I mean by not being successful. -------------------- (b) I know the meaning of the verse from the Jaataka. But I do not know how it relates to my practice. What gives you the idea that there may be any relationship? -------------------- (c) SN 27.3 Vi~n~naana sutta is a very short sutta which says that desire and lust (chanda-raaga) for eye-consciousness etc is the corruption of the mind (citta-upakkilesa). When a bhikkhu has abandoned the mental corruptions in these six cases, the mind becomes wieldy in regard to those things that are to be realized by direct knowledge. I quoted this sutta to show the importance of vipaaka cittas which are consequential in that they can cause the corruption of the mind. But I do not understand your current question: “do the circumstances make any/much difference?” What do you mean by that question? Respectfully, Han --- sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Han, > > You go away soon and my mother arrives tomorrow, so > I'll be rather busy > looking after her, hence the last minute rush to > respond belatedly to your > messages to me. Actually, we don't even have a guest > room so Jon and I'll > be sleeping on the living room floor for this time > and Jon will still be > working, so it'll all be fun, but rather like > camping... > #79949 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 6:56 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 5, no 5. nilovg Dear friends, During our journey Acharn Sujin stressed often that no names or words are needed when there is awareness of characteristics of realities. This is a reminder for us, since we are so used to think in words about realities instead of being directly aware of them. She explained: "Awareness should be natural; it just follows the moment of experiencing an object by "studying" it with awareness, so that there is a beginning of understanding, instead of just thinking in words. Without thinking in words there can be right awareness of a reality, and awareness falls away. There should be no expectation of other moments of awareness." Listening to Acharn Sujin's explanations is a condition for more understanding of paramattha dhammas, such as hearing and sound. Intellectual understanding of them is a foundation for the arising of direct awareness, provided we do not obstruct the arising of satipaììhåna by wishing to have sati. When sound appears there must be the nåma which hears that sound, but paññå has to be developed so that it clearly understands nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa. Acharn Sujin explained: " Rúpa cannot experience anything and nåma is quite different from rúpa. When sati of satipatthåna arises it is aware of only one characteristic at a time, for example of sound. There is nobody who hears, there is nothing else but sound and hearing that hears the sound. There is nobody at all, nowhere. If there is an idea of somewhere, there is thinking of some place, memory of place and people, of me, of the whole body. When understanding of sound is developed, it is just sound. People try to focus, to concentrate with the idea of self. Sound is appearing and citta experiences it, there are only these realities. There is nobody in this room. This can be directly experienced by gradually developing right understanding and this is the right Path." When we meet other people and we talk to them, we forget that, in the ultimate sense, there is nobody, that we are alone with nåma and rúpa. If we do not know the characteristic that appears we think of this or that person. There must be citta that experiences an object. Colour appears, thus there must be a citta that is seeing. Visible object or colour is the only rúpa that is visible, that can be seen. Seeing sees for an extremely short moment and then it is gone, and also visible object falls away, nothing remains. When we look at people they seem to last, and this is because we think for a long time of shape and form of people and of things. There are many different moments of thinking and these fall away. Thinking is a paramattha dhamma, but the concepts that are the objects of thinking are not paramattha dhammas. We can learn to discern he difference between concepts and paramattha dhammas. We cannot immediately have right understanding of paramattha dhammas, but we can begin to develop it. ****** Nina. #79950 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] SACHIN- was [Re: Angulimala] nilovg Dear Sarah and Sachin, Just now Lodewijk and I had more copies printed by Alan and have them here at home. If I know the postal address we are really happy to send it. Nina. Op 9-dec-2007, om 11:22 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Belatedly, I'm just wondering if you are Phra Kom and his sister Val's > friend in Bangkok? She mentioned to me before that she'd like an extra > copy of the "Perfections" to give to her friend, Sachin. She also > said she > was going to give Sachin the details of DSG. Is it you? Did you > receive a > copy of the book? I know that when Sukin and I looked we had trouble > finding any left at the Foundation. #79951 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 8:01 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply: > > A: "What you are saying is X cannot have X. Water cannot have > water...That is a contradiction." > > Scott: No, not a contradiction. You've not understood. You aren't > yet appreciating the difference between a Characteristic - anatta - > and that which has this Characteristic - any conditioned dhamma. >>> Scott. Apart from characteristics there isn't a thing. A thing IS a set of characteristics. For example lets say a black cube. There is: A certain form, color (black), weight, hardness, taste (if you lick it) location, duration, etc. As you see there is no "inner core" . Furthermore each of those characteristics above is further divisible. If you remove them, then you won't have a "thing" to talk about. That is one of the ways that the Buddha was teaching anatta. There isn't anything indivisible in a "being", 5 aggregates are suffering, and since there is causality then there isn't perfect freedom which means that there is suffering. So to sum up: Without characteristics we cannot even imagine something, nothing to say about talking about it. > A: "First of all "Volition has the function of willing" is a tautology > that explains nothing. It is like saying 'White has the function of > being White'." > > Scott: You are lost without Abhidhamma clarification. You don't yet > appreciate what a mental factor is. You seem stuck with the notion > that Someone has to be Willing or there can be no Willing. Look, from > Dhammasa"nga.nii (pp. 7-8): >>> No. Perhaps the problem is with communication rather than meaning. When I was talking about volition I was NOT talking about "atta willing". I was talking merely about volition that CAN willfully change either towards good, bad or ceasing (in Nibbana). <>>> > Scott: A tautology is "a proposition that is already true by > definition." >> Yes. Saying that volition has the function of willing is true by definition and it adds nothing new. > > Scott: There is Volition, Alex. See above. There is simply no one > who Wills. > > A: "Are you implying fatalism? Are you saying that nothing can be done > to increase (and even to start the process) of disbanding?" > > Scott: No, Alex. You are still thinking in terms of a person who can > do something. You need to understand that anatta means that dhammas > are insusceptible to mastery and cannot be controlled. I'm saying > that No One can do anything. I'm not saying that mental development > doesn't occur. Of course it does. Totally by Conditions and > completely without the Influence of a Person. If that is the case, then our arguments were over semantics and not content. a) I didn't imply atta, but you thought that I did, so you have said that no one can do anything. b) When you have said that no one can do anything, if you meant that "atta cannot do anything since it doesn't exist", but there is a choice (decision or volition), then I agree with you. You original statement sounded too much like "there is no decision, no will, no possibility of hastening the cessing process". With this I've disagreed. While there is a choice, ultimately there isn't someone doing it. But the choice (to do bad or good Kamma, or to stop it) is there! "As if struck by a sword, as if his head were on fire, a monk should live the wandering life — mindful — for the abandoning of sensual passion." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thag/thag.01.00x.than.html# passage-39 --- "If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of ill will, overcome by sloth & drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated,' then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.051.than.html#tur ban Lots of Metta, Alex #79952 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 8:15 am Subject: Re: Hi Alex and Scott! / re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Venerable, Thank you for your reply: Bh.A: "It might intrest the both of you to take a look at a posting of minedated Nov.19 2007..." Scott: Yes, I've re-read it. Bh. A: "The actual core proposition of the posting was not addressed by anyone..." Scott: If you'd kindly restate what you consider to be this Core Proposition in light of this particular point in the thread, I'd consider it. Thank you. Sincerely, Scott. #79953 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 8:31 am Subject: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha. Now, Meditation truth_aerator Hi DC, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Thanks for the well-thought out reply. Give me a couple of days. I want to do a little research on that. But when you say "vipassana," what exactly do you mean by it? Is it different from passati? anupassati etc.? >>>>> Mindfulness, sati -> are used to enter and remain in the Jhana. Seeing, etc, is what one needs to do while one is in there. >>> > 1. I agree that nirodha samaapatti does not belong to aruupa jhaanas. I called it aruupa jhaana because it is the culmination of the aruupa path. Sometimes, I think that only Buddhas and pacceka Buddhas travel that path. Arhants would normally go through the path given in Sama~n~naphalasutta. What do you thinks? >>>> While there are suttas that appear to imply Arahatship even from the mastery of 1st Jhana (with all 4 being a possibility for even the driest Arahant) it seems that 4th & Cessation are the really strong and effective states for realization. > 2. Regarding the way, I am not sure whether you require "three knowledges," "six knowledges" or none of them at all. There is another doubt I have here. Let me give my view (very tentative): >>> No. 3 Knowledges or 6 are NOT required, they are optional. One can be liberated with only one knowledge (ending of fermentations). I have heard that 2/3 of Arahats did not posssess triple knowledge or 6 superpowers. > 3. It is of course, necessary to go to the 4th Jhaana. Then the yogi's mind is fully concentrated ON A SINGLE OBJECT. (that I think is the meaning of concentration). And he is totally detached; he has given up thinking (vitakka, vicaara); he has only upekkha--EQUANIMITY. >>> Hearing is present in 4th to early Arupa Jhanas (atleast in 'unpurified' form). Only in the base of Nothingness there is truly 'nothing' outside. But even there, volition is present. >>> In order to get any of the knowledges, yogi has to come out and think. >>>> Where is that found in the suttas? In fact in suttas talking about Jhana, this isn't mentioned! see mn19,36,111 and all others that talk about Jhanas. >>> That means he is not concentrated. But of course, his mind is still detached and free of all the hindrances (niivarana), and his mind is powerful (concentrated to the level of 4th Jhaana). From this point he is able to "realise" knowledges. >>>> This isn't found in the suttas. You remain in 4th Jhana where you recollect the knowledges. There is no hint of nessesity of coming out. You are mindful WHILE in the Jhana (see mn19 for example) "Just as in the last month of the hot season, when all the crops have been gathered into the village, a cowherd would look after his cows: While resting under the shade of a tree or out in the open, he simply keeps himself mindful of 'those cows.' In the same way, I simply kept myself mindful of 'those mental qualities.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.019.than.html The determination to realise triple knowledge is either before you enter Jhanas, or in the 4th Jhana itself. However this determination is "Volition" and not "Vitakka-Vicara" (which is THINKING & examining the qualities of the thought (on a non verbal level). >> That is a process I don't understand. The three knowledges, is a later interpretation I think. One of the reasons for my saying these things is: Ven. Konda~n~na became a sotapanna on hearing the Dhammacakkappavattana sutta. Then he became an arahant after hearing the Anattalakkhanasutta. Any way all the above stuff is just my view and I am not sure of them. What do you think? > >>> As I've said above, it is possible to realize Arahatship without 1st & 2nd knowledge, but with the 3rd and only transcendent knowledge. For those with STRONGLY DEVELOPED wisdom, you don't need to develip psychic abilities. Furthermore, this path *may* be quicker - hence why there were 2/3 Arahats without any special abilities. However today we live in a more sensual worlds. We have much more sensual things distracting us. Many of us also have vices of doubt and lack of motivation, which requires stronger means. Furthmore many people may not have as much quick and swift wisdom to get awakened from 4th Jhana as people in those times. Developing and mastering Jhanas (perhaps all of them + some abilities) will help us. Regarding people hearing buddha teach and becoming awakened, we need to take it in context. Those people may have been serious meditators whose mind was VERY WELL developed. All they needed was that one extra instruction at the right time to achieve Ariyahood. A good story (please read it) is in MN140. A Buddha delivered a discource to his pupil (who didn't know he was speaking to a Buddha) and his pupil before even becoming a formal monk became an Anagamin. Does this imply liberated by hearing? Absolutely not. Read carefully, Buddha was surprised by the meditation of the pupil! The pupil has sat for most of the night (probably motionless) which was 4+ hours. It was also probably not the pupil's first time meditating as he was a wonderer. Also one of the things was: Buddha could analyze the person's character type and deliver the RIGHT discourse and the the RIGHT subject of meditation. MN140 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.140.than.html Lots of Metta, Alex #79954 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 8:32 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "...You original statement sounded too much like "there is no decision, no will, no possibility of hastening the cessing process". With this I've disagreed. While there is a choice, ultimately there isn't someone doing it. But the choice (to do bad or good Kamma, or to stop it) is there!" Scott: I'm not sure I'd use the word 'choice', but I think I might understand what you are saying. I wouldn't use 'choice' because of the implications in the word - a Chooser. A: "As if struck by a sword, as if his head were on fire, a monk should live the wandering life 'mindful' for the abandoning of sensual passion...Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." Scott: These passages are often used, as I've come to see, when one is insisting that dhammas are indeed subject to control - the oft stated and really excited exhortation to 'Practise as if your head is on fire' thing. Is this what you wish to communicate despite some sort of apparent agreement? Please clarify. What is it you wish to conclude by citing these sutta extracts? Sincerely, Scott. #79955 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 8:49 am Subject: was Re: [dsg] Alchohol & 5th Precept. - Nirodha truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: You find me one example in the suttas of a worldling/sotapanna/sakadagami who has attained to such a state. > Impossible! > ... First of all we could argue that Sariputta was a sotopanna when he started his MN111 meditation training. Is there somewhere a sutta which says that he became an Anagamin when he achieved and exited 8th Jhana - after which he achieved cessation? 2nd) When the phrase "Whatever is subject to origination, all that is subject to cessation" + the knowledge of a Sotapanna of DO . This IMPLIES a very quick achievement of "cessation of perception & feelings". Of course this state at this level is very weak (which is why perhaps one becomes a sotapanna rather than higher) and probably very quick. Since the Jhanas can last only for 1 second (AN1.397), maybe this "cessation" too. In order to see DO, one must see with wisdom that: with avijja ceasing, sankhara ceases. With sankhara ceasing Vinnana ceases. Etc etc. Forward and reverse order. >>> > ....> S: What can be understood or contemplated whilst in Jhana? >> Whatever qualities there are in the first jhana — directed thought, evaluation, rapture, pleasure, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness,2 desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.111.than.html Qualities of 1st Jhana (cut outs): " Rapture, pleasure, directed thought, evaluation, with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, consciousness, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html Thus MN111 isn't the only sutta with Jhanas being more than simply "blanking out". Surely only the > nimitta appearing as object. The understanding of the ti-lakkhana of > dhammas can only occur at moments of insight, not at moments of jhana cittas. >> Insight (or atleast collecting data to use after emerging) happens IN Jhana "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html Lots of Metta, Alex #79956 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 9:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy moellerdieter Hi Alex ( and all), you wrote: 'What Venerable probably intended to say was: Anatta needs to be put into action and not to remain simply as useless, book truth. Puting anatta in action in no way refutes the truth behind anatta. Quite the opposite, the truth has to be realized. The full realization of the truth is the Arahatship which requires more than simply sitting hunched over at the table reading and speculating ' D: we agree : 'Puting anatta in action in no way refutes the truth behind anatta. '. What has been criticized is the statement by the Venerable : 'Books on Buddhism often state that the Buddha's most basic metaphysical tenet is that there is no soul or self. However, a survey of the discourses in the Pali canon - the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings - suggests that the Buddha taught the anatta or not-self doctrine, not as a metaphysical assertion, but as a strategy for gaining release from suffering... which in some way seems to refute the ' truth behind anatta' not without intention. (Ven. Dhammanando made a point here before ). On the other hand , when some of our friends reject the aspect of strategy ( finally the whole Dhamma is concerned with suffering ...and its cessation) , I understand that here as well the other side of the coin is neglected, don't you think so? With Metta Dieter #79957 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 10:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] - Nirodha truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > > > Yes, generally it is correct. > > 1st) A lot of wisdom is required for that sort of letting go of > > everything. > ... > S: Yes, wisdom (pa~n~naa) is the key word. > ...>> But also let us not forget the verse of Dhammapada #372. There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the verge of Unbinding. - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.than.html >> > > BTW. A certain Saydaw says that cessation can lead to Sotapannaship... > ... > S: A certain Sayadaw is mistaken. Show me the text! > ... You mean the sutta? In one of the replies I have said things that suggest that some form of ceasing When the phrase "Whatever is subject to origination, all that is subject to cessation" + the direct knowledge of Dependent Origination this implies a very quick achievement of "cessation of perception & feelings". Of course this state at this level is very weak (which is why perhaps one becomes a sotapanna rather than higher) and probably happens very quick (in a second?). Didn't Mahasi Saydaw say somewhere about going blank for 2 or 3 times in rapid succession after which one attain sotopanna phala (am I mistaken here)? Since the Jhanas can last only for 1 second (AN1.397), maybe this "cessation" can last too. In order to see DO, one must see with wisdom that: with avijja ceasing, sankhara ceases. With sankhara ceasing Vinnana ceases. Etc etc. Forward and reverse order. > S: I agree, 'no ariyahood without Noble 8Fold Path!' 4th Jhana is not part> of it. >>> 4 Jhanas are part of samma-samadhi - 8th limb of N8P. And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration." — SN 56.11 "And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, is mindful & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration." — SN 45.8 "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception." — AN 9.36 "Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions." — MN 117 > .... > S: I would say the reason that the Buddha lived as long as he did - not> less and not more was simply because of many compex conditions, including past kamma and natural decisive support conditions. This is just how it is for anyone, for any stream of cittas. >> And the choice to relinquish the will to live, is obviously a complex process (without "atta willing"). >> It's never a question of a Self willing anything. >> This is where I and Scott were misinterpreting each other. I've said before and I'll say it again. Whenever I speak on 'volition' , etc, I do NOT mean atta willing. There is just a process of 'volition' (or whatever we are talking about) that can either change towards one direction or another. Lots of Metta, Alex #79958 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 10:08 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: I'm not sure I'd use the word 'choice', but I think I might > understand what you are saying. I wouldn't use 'choice' because of > the implications in the word - a Chooser. >> Implication is all yours, although I may have used not the best words. The grammar is based on "subject-object" and thus we need to remember that limitation. Choice = choice of volition (NOT ATTA) to develop itself toward wholesomeness or not, etc. No need for an actor behind the show. > A: "As if struck by a sword, as if his head were on fire, a monk > should live the wandering life 'mindful' for the abandoning of sensual > passion...Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would > put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided > mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in > the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, > diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the > abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities." > > Scott: These passages are often used, as I've come to see, when one is insisting that dhammas are indeed subject to control - the oft >> Subject to "control" of impersonal process. Let us remember the middle way between 2 extremes of total or zero control. None of this implies atta. What this implies is that there are situations which are like a fork in the road, one way leads to one direction another "path" leads to another direction. stated and really excited exhortation to 'Practise as if your head is on > fire' thing. Is this what you wish to communicate despite some sort > of apparent agreement? Please clarify. What is it you wish to > conclude by citing these sutta extracts? > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > I want to show that THERE IS possibility for the stream of changes to develop in alternative ways. Stream of changes can be gradually stoped. Right Effort DOES MATTER (but not for any atta of course). Lots of Metta, Alex #79959 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 10:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Dear Andrew, The verse to Dhammadinna, I am unable to find. Could you pleas send me the reference again. Extremely sorry for troubling you. Kind regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79960 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 10:18 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (46) m_nease Hi Sarah and Han, Thanks for the good discussion. Sarah, could you please elaborate on: sarah abbott wrote: > The law of conditioned dhammas > applies to the arising of every single dhamma (other than anatta) Thanks in advance. mike #79961 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 10:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Hi Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > Hi Alex ( and all), > > you wrote: > > 'What Venerable probably intended to say was: Anatta needs to be put into action and not to remain simply as useless, book truth. Puting anatta in action in no way refutes the truth behind anatta. Quite the opposite, the truth has to be realized. The full realization of the > truth is the Arahatship which requires more than simply sitting hunched over at the table reading and speculating ' > > D: we agree : 'Puting anatta in action in no way refutes the truth behind anatta. '. > What has been criticized is the statement by the Venerable : > 'Books on Buddhism often state that the Buddha's most basic metaphysical tenet is that there is no soul or self. However, a survey of the discourses in the Pali canon - the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings - suggests that the Buddha taught the anatta or not-self doctrine, not as a metaphysical assertion, but as a strategy for gaining release from suffering... > > > > which in some way seems to refute the ' truth behind anatta' not without intention. (Ven. Dhammanando made a point here before ). > > Before jumping to conclussions: Did TB anywhere state: a) Atta DOES really exist ? b) Can there be atta outside of 5 aggregates? c) are any of the 5 aggregates Self (Atta)? If anyone (including Ven Mons such as TB) says 'yes' to any of the above 3 questions, then that person has Atta belief. Lots of Metta, Alex #79962 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 10:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hi Sarah and Andrew, It is correct attaa is not citta in general. Attaa really could be 'I', self, body, another body, mind, inside and outside and so on. Why there are so many interpretations is: attaa is a concept-a view, an opinion; most people one way other associate it with the mind--one who knows, one who feels, one who knows and so on. Or with the sense of 'I', 'me', 'mine'. That is attaa for me. What is real are vedana, sa~n~naa, sa"nkhaara, and vi~n~naa.na. Four of the 'mental' khandhas. This is the Dhammic analysis. I am sorry for the obssurity of my earlier statement. Kind regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #79963 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy moellerdieter Hi Alex, you wrote: 'Before jumping to conclussions: Did TB anywhere state: a) Atta DOES really exist ? b) Can there be atta outside of 5 aggregates? c) are any of the 5 aggregates Self (Atta)? If anyone (including Ven Mons such as TB) says 'yes' to any of the above 3 questions, then that person has Atta belief. D: I agree s, we should not jump to conclusions, in particular to suppose any 'eternity belief' ,for which there is , as far as I see , no evidence at all .. But the statement made by T.B. in some way ' refutes the truth behind anatta' as you said, similar as the rejection of his opponents ( anatta being a strategy ) refutes the training targetting the khanda attachment. Not much more to comment than pointing to the two sides of the coin... with Metta Dieter #79964 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Dear Scott and Alex, Op 9-dec-2007, om 3:31 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > A: "What is taking so long?" > > Scott: The Beautiful Fact that 'we' can't do anything about it!!! ------- N: How I like this answer! Nina. #79965 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 12:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (46) nilovg Dear Han, thank you for your kind words. Op 9-dec-2007, om 3:36 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Burmese Sayadaws also say > on these lines. For example, when we meditate, > Sayadaws say that saddhaa and other kusala cetasikas > are performing their duties. I understand that. But > *my personal opinion* is that it is *me* who is doing > all these kusala activities, with accompanying kusala > cittas and kusala cetasikas. ---------- N: You said before sometimes there is no Han, sometimes there is Han. Your personal feeling is 'you' are doing things. Again, I want to repeat that this is very common for us worldlings. It will still take a long time before wrong view is eradicated and the truth of anatta is directly experienced by pa~n~naa. Meanwhile it helps to begin to think in the right way about realities, as taught by the Buddha for fortyfive years. His teaching is most precious and we pay respect to the Buddha if we try (yes, make an effort!) to understand what he taught about citta, cetasika and rupa. But you may get tired now if this is drawn out too long, there is no need to answer my post again. Nina. #79966 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 1:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (46) sarahprocter... Hi Mike, all, --- "m. nease" wrote: > sarah abbott wrote: > > The law of conditioned dhammas > > applies to the arising of every single dhamma (other than anatta) ... S: Typo! It should read (other than nibbana). S. #79967 From: "Alex" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 1:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Nina & Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Scott and Alex, > > Op 9-dec-2007, om 3:31 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > > > A: "What is taking so long?" > > > > Scott: The Beautiful Fact that 'we' can't do anything about it!!! > ------- > N: How I like this answer! > Nina. > If this answer means that" "Non-existent atta" cannot do anything , then I agree as well. However IF this phrase means that "there is no freedom (no atta implied) to do kusala or akusala at all" then I disagree 101% for obvious moral, ethical, philosophical and Buddhist reasons . Lots of Metta, Alex #79968 From: "m. nease" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner (46) m_nease Hi Sarah, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Mike, all, > > --- "m. nease" > wrote: > > > sarah abbott wrote: > > > The law of conditioned dhammas > > > applies to the arising of every single dhamma (other than anatta) > ... > S: Typo! It should read (other than nibbana). > Right--thanks. mike #79969 From: han tun Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 2:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (5) To Sarah hantun1 Dear Sarah, You asked me: b) whether the actual practice as you see it is really so different, in spite of the changed circumstances. Can you relate this to the verse from the Jataka: > (3) 'The splendid royal chariots, once so beautiful, grow old and decay, but the teaching of the wise is ageless and never changes, this is what the wise talk about among themselves.' -------------------- I answered: (b) I know the meaning of the verse from the Jaataka. But I do not know how it relates to my practice. What gives you the idea that there may be any relationship? -------------------- Han: I am thinking about your question again. Maybe you are not asking me to relate my practice and the verse from the Jaataka. Maybe you are asking how the teachings as mentioned in the Jaataka relate to the pre-war practice in Burma and the modern-day practice in Burma. Is that right? If so, my answer would be the teachings are the same. They do not grow old or decay or modified in any way. But the practices have changed. During pre-war period in Burma (especially in rural areas) it was less stressful and easy. Although the Nibbaana was and is the ultimate goal for the people then and now, the people before the war took things easy and most of them were satisfied with daana and siila, and bhaavanaa consisted mainly of what they did at the temple which I had already described. But the modern-day practice in Burma is like that in Thailand which you already know. I am sorry if I have misunderstood your question. Respectfully, Han --- han tun wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Sarah: I'd like to know more about; > a) what you mean by successful > b) whether the actual practice as you see it is > really > so different, in spite of the changed circumstances. > Can you relate this to the verse from the Jataka: > > > (3) 'The splendid royal chariots, once so > beautiful, > grow old and decay, but the teaching of the wise is > ageless and never changes, this is what the wise > talk > about among themselves.' > > c) What about in terms of the Vinnana Sutta, SN > 27:3, > I just referred to which you'd quoted. When we read > about desires with regard to sense objects and > dhammas > to be known, do the circumstances make any/much > difference, do you think? > --------------------- #79970 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 5:41 pm Subject: Re: A Homework Paper to be Graded ..Perplexing ... kenhowardau Hi all, There is a quite lengthy message in my drafts folder. By the time I finished writing it I had completely changed the opinion I started with. :-) Rather than leave the entire post languishing there, I might see if something can be salvaged from it. Jon wrote to Tep: ----- > In a thread some time ago now (apologies for the delay), we were talking about how not all ultimate truths can be said to be true in the conventional sense. I gave as an example the first of the 4NT ('Birth is suffering'). You questioned whether this was not also true in the conventional sense. > > T: 'Birth is suffering' to me is true in the real- world sense. > > J: > I think in the conventional sense birth (i.e, life in this world) is generally regarded as something desirable or even a privilege, not as a cause of suffering. I think your observation is made with the benefit of having studied the teachings and thus having some insight into the ultimate truths. ----- I liked Jon's point that not all ultimate truths were true in the conventional sense. He had given some good examples in his earlier post. However, I thought I could catch him out on this one, and I tended to agree with Tep that birth was conventionally a time of suffering. In the Dhammacakkaappavattana Sutta the Buddha proclaimed the ultimate truth known as dukkha. In order to describe the nature of dukkha, he gave some examples from conventional reality. Birth, as we know, was at the top of the list: "Birth is suffering, decay is suffering, disease is suffering, death is suffering, to be united with the unpleasant is suffering, to be separated from the pleasant is suffering, not to get what one desires is suffering." I think a lot of us assume from this that birth, like all those other examples, was generally regarded in the Buddha's day as an unpleasant business. That seems reasonable enough when we consider the pain, complications and high mortality rates that are associated with it. Against this, however (as Jon points out), is the fact that birth (patisandhi-citta) in the human and higher realms is kusala vipaka. The Buddha would not have used a conventionally unpleasant concept as a simile for an ultimately pleasant reality. To cut a long story short, I now see the above quote as a list of unpleasant concepts headed by a pleasant concept. I think it was presented as a dramatic, enlightening statement that told people something previously unknown to them. Until this first sutta, everyone regarded birth (especially birth into the immaterial sphere ) as an integral part of release from suffering. Now, birth was being lumped in with all the rest. The statement was followed by, "In short, the five khandhas are dukkha." Therefore, whatever form those khandhas may take - pleasant, unpleasant, kusala, akusala, or functional - they are all ultimately just like decay and death. They are all dukkha. Comments? Corrections? Ken H #79971 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 6:50 pm Subject: Perfections Corner (48) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 8: The Perfection of Determination. continued... At that time the Bodhisatta was conceived in the womb of queen Candaadevii. When the Bodhisatta was born, also five hundred young nobles were born in the ministers' houses. The king ordered that these young nobles would be the retinue of the royal prince. He sent five hundred wetnurses and five hundred princely dresses to the five hundred young nobles. Moreover, he arranged for sixty-four wetnurses to take care of the Bodhisatta. When the young prince was one month old the wetnurses brought him to the king and the king placed him on his hip. Now at that time four robbers were brought before him to be sentenced. One of them was sentenced by the king to receive a thousand strokes from whips barbed with thorns, another to be imprisoned in chains, the third to be smitten with a spear and the fourth to be impaled. When the Bodhisatta heard the verdict spoken by his father, he became disenchanted, because he was afraid of committing grievous acts which would result in rebirth in hell. The next day the wetnurses laid him on a bed under a white umbrella, and after a short sleep he opened his eyes and saw the white umbrella. He pondered, 'From whence have I come into this palace?' By his recollection of former lives he remembered that he had once come from a heavenly plane and then, while he recollected the life previous to that one, he remembered that he had suffered in the 'Ussada Hell'. When he recollected his life before that one, he remembered that he had been the king in this very city. The following thoughts occurred to him: 'I do not need the kingdom. How can I escape from this house of robbers?' Then a goddess who dwelt in the umbrella and who had in a previous life been his mother, was seeking his benefit and she advised him to pretend to be dumb, cripple and deaf, so that he could escape from becoming the king. From then on the Bodhisatta pretended to be dumb, cripple and deaf. His parents and the wetnurses, when taking into account the formation of the jaws of the dumb, the structure of the ears of the deaf, the hands and the feet of the crippled, noticed that all those characteristics were not to be found in him. They thought that there should be a reason for his behaviour. Therefore, they started to test the prince by giving him no milk for a whole day. Although he was hungry, he uttered no sound to make known that he wanted milk. His mother thought, 'The boy is famished, the wetnurses should give him milk' and she made the wetnurses gave him milk. They gave him milk at intervals for a whole year, but they could not discover his weak point. ..to be continued, connie #79972 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 6:51 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (71) nichiconn dear friends, Part 17 14. Ti.msanipaato 1. Subhaajiivakambavanikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 392. "Di.t.thaa hi mayaa sucittitaa, sombhaa daarukapillakaani vaa; tantiihi ca khiilakehi ca, vinibaddhaa vividha.m panaccakaa. 390. For I have seen well-painted puppets or wooden marionettes, dancers in various ways, fastened by strings and sticks. Sucittitaati hatthapaadamukhaadi-aakaarena su.t.thu cittitaa viracitaa. Sombhaati sumbhakaa. Daarukapillakaani vaati daaruda.n.daadiihi uparacitaruupakaani. Tantiihiiti nhaarusuttakehi. Khiilakehiiti hatthapaadapi.t.thika.n.naadi-atthaaya .thapitada.n.dehi. Vinibaddhaati vividhenaakaarena baddhaa. Vividha.m panaccakaati yantasuttaadiina.m a~nchanavissajjanaadinaa pa.t.thapitanaccakaa, panaccantaa viya di.t.thaati yojanaa. 390. Well-painted (sucittitaa) means: well painted (su.t.thu cittitaa), ornamented, to give the appearance of [having] hands, feet, faces, etc. Puppets (sombhaa) means: little puppets (sumbhakaa). Or wooden marionettes (daaruka-pillakaani) means: images constructed from wooden sticks, etc. (daaru-da.n.daadiihi). Strings means: strings of sinew. By sticks means: by the arrangement of sticks for the purpose of hands, feet, backs, ears, etc. Fastened (vinibaddhaa) means: attached in various ways. Dancers (panaccakaa) in various ways means: a dancer established (pa.t.thapita-naccakaa) through the pulling and releasing, etc, of the strings of a mechanism, etc. They are to be seen dancing (panaccantaa); that is the connection. 393. "Tamhuddha.te tantikhiilake, vissa.t.the vikale parikrite; na vindeyya kha.n.daso kate, kimhi tattha mana.m nivesaye. 391. If these strings and sticks are removed, thrown away, mutilated, scattered, could not be found, broken into pieces, what would one's mind fix on there? Tamhuddha.te tantikhiilaketi sannivesavisi.t.tharacanaavisesayutta.m upaadaaya ruupakasama~n~naa tamhi tantimhi khiilake ca .thaanato uddha.te bandhanto vissa.t.the, visu.m kara.nena a~n~namaain~n~na.m vikale, tahi.m tahi.m khipanena parikrite vikirite. Na vindeyya kha.n.daso kateti potthakaruupassa avayave kha.n.daakha.n.dite kate potthakaruupa.m na vindeyya, na upalabheyya. Eva.m sante kimhi tattha mana.m nivesaye tasmi.m potthakaruupaavayave kimhi ki.m khaa.nuke, udaahu rajjuke, mattikaapi.n.daadike vaa mana.m manasa~n~na.m niveseyya, visa"nkhaare avayave saa sa~n~naa kadaacipi napateyyaati attho. 391. If these strings and sticks are removed means: if the string and stick perceived as images derived from the connecting together of the excellent arrangement that is distinguished by its arrangement are removed from their positions, their bindings are thrown away, separately, one after the one, scattered, strewn, by being thrown in pieces here and there. Could not be found, broken (kha.n.daso kate) means: when the parts of a [wooden] figure are broken into pieces (kha.n.daakha.n.dite kate), the [wooden] figure could not be found (na vindeyya = na upalabheyya). This being so, what would one's mind fix on (nivesaye) there with regard to the parts of that [wooden] figure? What (kimhi = ki.m) would one's mind, [what would] mental recognition, fix on (niveseyya)? A stake, a rope, or a lump of clay, etc?* *For "mutilated" (vikale), see the discussion by KRN, EV II, p. 144. 394. "Tathuupamaa dehakaani ma.m, tehi dhammehi vinaa na vattanti; dhammehi vinaa na vattati, kimhi tattha mana.m nivesaye. 392. These limbs of mine, being of such a kind, do not exist without these phenomena. As [the body] does not exist without phenomena, what would one's mind fix on there? Tathuupamaati ta.msadisaa tena potthakaruupena sadisaa. Kinti ce aaha "dehakaanii"ti-aadi. Tattha dehakaaniiti hatthapaadamukhaadidehaavayavaa. Manti me pa.tibaddhaa upa.t.thahanti. Tehi dhammehiiti tehi pathavi-aadiihi ca cakkhaadiihi ca dhammehi. Vinaa na vattantiiti na hi tathaa tathaa sannivi.t.the pathavi-aadidhamme mu~ncitvaa dehaa naama santi. Dhammehi vinaa na vattatiiti deho avayavehi avayavadhammehi vinaa na vattati na upalabbhati. Eva.m sante kimhi tattha mana.m nivesayeti kimhi ki.m pathaviya.m, udaahu aapaadike dehoti vaa hatthapaadaadiiniiti vaa mana.m manasa~n~na.m niveseyya. Yasmaa pathavi-aadipasaadadhammamatte esaa sama~n~naa, yadida.m dehoti vaa hatthapaadaadiiniiti vaa sattoti vaa itthiiti vaa purisoti vaa, tasmaa na ettha jaanato koci abhiniveso hotiiti. 392. Being of such a kind means, being like that, being like that [wooden] figure. If anyone asks why, she says These limbs, etc. There limbs means: limbs of the body such as hands, feet, and face. Of mine (ma.m) means: they arise, being attached to me. These phenomena (dhammehi) means: they phenomena of the earth [element], etc,* and the eye, etc.** [They] do not exist without [these phenomena] means: for there are no bodies when the phenomena of the earth [element], etc, that are collected together in this way and that are given up. [The body] does not exist without phenomena (dhammehi) means: a body does not exist (na vattati = na upalabbahti) without its parts, [without] the phenomena of the parts (avayava-dhammehi). This being so, what would one's mind fix on there? What (kimhi = ki.m) would one's mind, [what would] mental recognition, fix on? On the hands and feet, etc, thinking, "The body is the earth [element]" or "It is the water [element], etc."? Since this is a name for what is merely the phenomenon of putting faith in the earth [element], etc, by saying here, "It is a body," or "It is hands and feet, etc," or "It is a creature," or "It is a woman," or "It is a man"; therefore, there is not conviction in whoever is knowledgeable about this. *The four elements (dhaatu) of earth (pathavii), water (apa), fire (tejo), air (vaaya), from which material form is derived. Material form is the first of the five aggregates (ruupa-khanda). See, for example, M n*28 (M I 184-190, MLDB 278-83). **The six senses (the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind). See M n*140 (M I 190f., MLDB 283-5) for an explanation of these and their role with four of the five aggregates. === to be continued, connie #79973 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 7:33 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et buddhatrue Hi Sarah (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > >You are taking the teaching of anatta to an > > extreme which doesn't correspond with what the Buddha taught. > ... > S: I'm just picking up on this point because it reminds me of a comment a > friend made off-list recently as well about 'extreme views' of anatta. > > I think that any accusations of taking 'anatta to an extreme' are a great > compliment. No one can appreciate how really 'extreme' the teaching of > anatta is as the Buddha and the arahants. As I just quoted, Sariputta > recalled "the past states, which had ceased and changed, thus: 'So indeed, > these states, not having been come into being; having been, they vanish." > > S: And that's it! There is nothing in life except the different 'states', > different namas and rupas vanishing as soon as they've arisen. > > Just because we reflect on such comments or reflect on how there really > aren't any people, no "I" at all, doesn't mean there is no self-view. Anatta isn't the entirety of the Buddha's teaching so it can be taken to an extreme. I witness this extreme everyday on DSG. Sarah, you are always speaking of no-self and emphasizing no-self, but I rarely read you speak of dukkha, suffering. This isn't unusual because with your over-emphasis on anatta, you have eliminated suffering. After all, if there are no people, then there is no one who suffers. If everything is disconnected phenomena arising and falling, then suffering has no place to land. Sarah, I really don't overly blame you for this because most people don't want to face dukkha. In another list, Dhamma-list, I emphasized that life is dukkha, in its every aspect, and one of the members wrote back to me "I hope you get better soon". LOL! As the Buddha taught suffering, it can only be appreciated in terms of people, entities, living lifetimes (not in terms of disconnected namas and rupas): "Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth about Ill. Birth is Ill, Aging is Ill, Sickness is Ill, Death is Ill, likewise Sorrow and Grief, Woe, Lamentation and Despair. To be conjoined with things we dislike, to be separated from things which we like — that also is Ill. Not to get what one wants, that also is Ill, In a word, this Body, this fivefold mass which is based on grasping, that is Ill." So, Sarah, when you take anatta to an extreme and eliminate people, you eliminate dukkha. If you eliminate dukkha, you eliminate any reason for the Buddha's teaching. Metta, James #79974 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 8:42 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Thanks for the reply: A: "Choice = choice of volition (NOT ATTA) to develop itself toward wholesomeness or not, etc. No need for an actor behind the show." Scott: I'm sorry, but I don't think this is correct. I'm possibly misunderstanding your phrase 'choice of volition' but this is dualistic and can't occur. Volition is cetanaa cetasika, which has as characteristic willing but it is not in the nature of cetanaa to choose to develop itself towards anything. The above statement seems to contradict itself. Volition, according to this view, has been made into an Actor. A: "Subject to 'control' of impersonal process. Let us remember the middle way between 2 extremes of total or zero control. None of this implies atta. What this implies is that there are situations which are like a fork in the road, one way leads to one direction another "path" leads to another direction." Scott: This use of the term 'middle way' is not accurate here, if you are referring to some sort of intermediate state vis-a-vis control. Anatta as characteristic means No Control. None. Not too much, nor too little but None. No Mastery. I'm not following the whole 'fork in the road' thing. Sincerely, Scott. #79975 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 9:05 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et kenhowardau Hi James (and Sarah), --------------- J: > Anatta isn't the entirety of the Buddha's teaching so it can be taken to an extreme. ---------------- In one way of speaking it is the entirety of the teaching. A person with the accumulated wisdom of Sariputta, for example, will need only to consider a small part of the teaching in order to understand the teaching in full. I think the same sort of thing can apply at an intellectual level for us lesser mortals. When Abhidhamma students consider the doctrine of anatta it tells them that the middle way is to understand the presently arisen patamattha dhamma. When they consider the doctrine of anicca it tells them the the middle way is to understand the presently arisen paramattha dhamma (and so on for every facet of the Dhamma). -------------------------- J: > I witness this extreme everyday on DSG. Sarah, you are always speaking of no-self and emphasizing no-self, but I rarely read you speak of dukkha, suffering. -------------------------- Garbage! You are making that up just to make a point. -------------------- J: > This isn't unusual because with your over-emphasis on anatta, you have eliminated suffering. -------------------- James, isn't this your own armchair-philosophy being passed off as Dhamma? According to the texts we are studying, anicca and dukkha are characteristics of paramattha dhammas. One can't eliminate the other in any way. Where do the texts say that an overemphasis on anatta will eliminate dukkha? ----------------------------- J: > After all, if there are no people, then there is no one who suffers. ------------------------------ Ah! Here you are making the same point Ven Thanissaro makes when he says that there could be no results of kamma if there were no sentient being to receive them. I hope you won't mind my saying this, but you and Ven T really need to move up to a higher level of understanding. ----------------------------------------- J: > If everything is disconnected phenomena arising and falling, ----------------------------------------- Do you mean disconnected from the self? Who says it is? Nama and rupa are neither connected to, nor disconnected from, a self. There is no self, so how could they be? This is the sort of thing you need to understand if you want to be a Dhamma student. ----------------------------- J: > Sarah, I really don't overly blame you for this because most people don't want to face dukkha. In another list, Dhamma-list, I emphasized that life is dukkha, in its every aspect, and one of the members wrote back to me "I hope you get better soon". LOL! ------------------------------- Don't laugh! Anyone who goes around saying life (in the conventional sense of the word) is suffering needs to be safely removed from society. That is not the teaching of the Buddha. The ultimate reality (the conditioned nama or rupa) that has presented itself now at one of the six doors is to be understood as dukkha. Nothing else! Certainly not conventional daily activities. They are just concepts. Thinking of concepts as anicca dukkha and anatta will lead to madness. Please be warned! ------------------------------------------ J: > As the Buddha taught suffering, it can only be appreciated in terms of people, entities, living lifetimes (not in terms of disconnected namas and rupas): "Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth about Ill. Birth is Ill, Aging is Ill, Sickness is Ill, Death is Ill, likewise Sorrow and Grief, Woe, Lamentation and Despair. To be conjoined with things we dislike, to be separated from things which we like — that also is Ill. Not to get what one wants, that also is Ill, In a word, this Body, this fivefold mass which is based on grasping, that is Ill." ------------------------------------------- To paraphrase the Satipatthana sutta: When a monk (someone who is practising satipatthana) is experiencing despair, or is not getting what he wants etc.., he knows those things as they really are. Really there are only namas and rupas. Namas and rupas can be experienced, one at a time, at the six doorways, where they (and only they) are to be known as mere, fleeting phenomena - not self and not worth clinging to in any way. ------------------------------ J: > So, Sarah, when you take anatta to an extreme and eliminate people, you eliminate dukkha. If you eliminate dukkha, you eliminate any reason for the Buddha's teaching. ------------------------------ Time is running out, James. You need to learn the true Dhamma while you still can. Forget all the conventional rites and rituals that you are so obsessed with: they will get you nowhere. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Sarah (and Howard), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > > Hi James, > > > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > >You are taking the teaching of anatta to an > > > extreme which doesn't correspond with what the Buddha taught. > > ... > > S: I'm just picking up on this point because it reminds me of a > comment a > > friend made off-list recently as well about 'extreme views' of anatta. > > > > I think that any accusations of taking 'anatta to an extreme' are a > great > > compliment. No one can appreciate how really 'extreme' the teaching of > > anatta is as the Buddha and the arahants. As I just quoted, Sariputta > > recalled "the past states, which had ceased and changed, thus: 'So > indeed, > > these states, not having been come into being; having been, they > vanish." > > > > S: And that's it! There is nothing in life except the different > 'states', > > different namas and rupas vanishing as soon as they've arisen. > > > > Just because we reflect on such comments or reflect on how there really > > aren't any people, no "I" at all, doesn't mean there is no > self-view. > > #79976 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 10:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: vipaka. Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) sarahprocter... Dear Han, Just v.briefly to finish this thread before heading for the airport v. soon- --- han tun wrote: > I know that vipaaka cittas such as cakkhuvinnana, > sotavinnana, etc. do not directly produce any kammic > results. But they are (if I may use your own words) > consequential in the sense of being a condition for > defilements to arise by being object and as being the > precursor for many mind-door processes subsequently. > That’s why I said they are not inconsequential. .... S: I think we both have a point. I agree that in this sense vipaka cittas are consequential. I also think that in the sense and context I used the word, vipaka cittas are insignificant or unimportant in that they are not the cause of the problems in life. So, win/win? Thx for all your other good feedback. Will try to send brief comments to these and other posts when I can, hopefully before you leave. Metta, Sarah ======== #79977 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:08 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et buddhatrue Hi Ken H., I'm not sure what inspired such a virulent post, but I don't appreciate it. I'm only going to respond to one thing: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > -------------------------- > J: > I witness this extreme everyday on DSG. Sarah, you > are always speaking of no-self and emphasizing no-self, but I rarely > read you speak of dukkha, suffering. > -------------------------- > > Garbage! You are making that up just to make a point. > I just used the advanced search feature for DSG and found out the following information. Within the past 30 days, Sarah has written only three (3) posts which mention dukkha and seventeen (17) posts which mention anatta. Now, do you think I am still making it up? Metta, James #79978 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: freedom. was: Anatta as a strategy nilovg Dear Alex and Scott, Op 9-dec-2007, om 22:31 heeft Alex het volgende geschreven: > A: "What is taking so long?" > > > > > > Scott: The Beautiful Fact that 'we' can't do anything about it!!! > > ------- > > N: How I like this answer! > > A: If this answer means that" "Non-existent atta" cannot do anything , > then I agree as well. > > However IF this phrase means that "there is no freedom (no atta > implied) to do kusala or akusala at all" then I disagree 101% for > obvious moral, ethical, philosophical and Buddhist reasons . -------- N: I liked this dialogue and it is so understandable that you asked: what is taking so long. We all may have such thoughts at times. Then Scott answers: 'The Beautiful Fact that 'we' can't do anything about it!!!' The Buddha's teaching is so straight to the point, it is beautiful because truthful. It teaches us that whatever we do is dependent on conditions. Time and again we believe that 'we' can do this or that to reach the goal faster, but in reality such belief slows down the whole process. Energy, zeal, decision, volition, all of these are true, but they arise with cittas, they are conditioned realities. The word freedom can lead to confusion. It is ignorance that enslaves us, and it is pa~n~naa that leads to freedom from all akusala. Nina. #79979 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Sun Dec 9, 2007 11:51 pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy dacostacharles Hi Sukinder, You asked, "So you a putthujana, now know an Arahat's mind and can even "talk" about Anatta in relation to such a mind, is this not then being *doubly* deluded?" I was taught that one "can not" really know the mind of another being. So therefore it is true, the sutras may have deluded us into thinking that Arhants have no eternal unchanging soul (or self if you prefer) in one form or another. The issue of the posts was whether a self exists (in one form or another and at any time) in beings. We were concluding that based on the sutras, one who has attained the level of Arhant has no self (in one form or another). For the rest of us beings who are locked in samsara, the self arises, fades, ceases, and is reborn as one form or another (e.g., "I," "me," and "mine"). We were not saying that "only an Arahat knows Anatta." I believe that most on this list know Anatta in one form or another. I think you should take it that, "Only arhants have no self that gives rise to desire/craving or suffering. And, considering I really don't know the mind of Arhants, this is more a theory than a fact. I should also state that since I don't know all beings, I can not say whether "there is such a being who possesses such a thing as "no-self." May be, maybe not :-)! Charles DaCosta _____ From: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sukinder Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2007 3:00 To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Not-self strategy Hi DC (and Charles), =========== DC: Great, that is the truth. Only arhants have no-self. Those who talk of anatta while being a puthujjana, are deluded. Sukin: So you a putthujana, now know an Arahat's mind and can even "talk" about Anatta in relation to such a mind, is this not then being *doubly* deluded? Furthermore, with all your talk about literal interpretation of words, should I take, "Only arhants have no-self" to mean literally, that `there is such a being who possesses such a thing as "no-self"'? And if this is in fact only a slip and what you meant was that "only an Arahat knows Anatta", are you saying that a Sotapanna, Sakadagami and Anagami does not know this? Please clarify, and if you are interested, we can pursue the matter of "knowledge and communication" further. <...> #79980 From: "Charles DaCosta" Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:07 am Subject: RE: [dsg] Great Benefit: The state of No-Return. dacostacharles Thanks, I had picked up the habit of automatically moving to a save folder, these sutra post you make. Some times I do remember to stop and read them first. Charles DaCosta _____ #79981 From: "Andrew" Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. corvus121 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: > > Dear Andrew, > > The verse to Dhammadinna, I am unable to find. Could you pleas send me the reference again. Extremely sorry for troubling you. > > Kind regards, > > D. G. D. C. Wijeratna Hello DC How to cite references in the Samyutta Nikaya always confuses me. If you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation published by Wisdom, it is on page 1833. If not, then it is in V. Mahaavaga, 55. Sotaapattisamyutta 53(3) Dhammadinna [406]. I hope all that helps! Best wishes Andrew #79982 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:23 am Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/Nina et kenhowardau Hi James, I just looked up virulent in the dictionary. I not sure that my post was "malicious: showing great bitterness, malice, or hostility" but if that's how it seemed to you I can't argue. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Hi Ken H., > > I'm not sure what inspired such a virulent post, but I don't > appreciate it. I'm only going to respond to one thing: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > > -------------------------- > > J: > I witness this extreme everyday on DSG. Sarah, you > > are always speaking of no-self and emphasizing no-self, but I rarely > > read you speak of dukkha, suffering. > > -------------------------- > > > > Garbage! You are making that up just to make a point. > > > > I just used the advanced search feature for DSG and found out the > following information. Within the past 30 days, Sarah has written > only three (3) posts which mention dukkha and seventeen (17) posts > which mention anatta. Now, do you think I am still making it up? You know what they say: 'there are lies, damn lies and statistics.' Actually, I'm a bit disappointed in Sarah. 63 posts in 30 days and you say only 17 of them mentioned anatta! What else could she have been talking about? :-) I'd still like to discuss 'concepts and characteristics' with you, and I will gladly tone it down if that will change your mind. Ken H #79984 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: freedom. was: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Nina and Alex, I liked this bit of conversation: [A: "What is taking so long?" Scott: "The Beautiful Fact that 'we' can't do anything about it!!!" N: "How I like this answer!" A: "If this answer means that" "Non-existent atta" cannot do anything, then I agree as well. However IF this phrase means that "there is no freedom (no atta implied) to do kusala or akusala at all" then I disagree 101% for obvious moral, ethical, philosophical and Buddhist reasons." N: "...The Buddha's teaching is so straight to the point, it is beautiful because truthful. It teaches us that whatever we do is dependent on conditions. Time and again we believe that 'we' can do this or that to reach the goal faster, but in reality such belief slows down the whole process. Energy, zeal, decision, volition, all of these are true, but they arise with cittas, they are conditioned realities. The word freedom can lead to confusion. It is ignorance that enslaves us, and it is pa~n~naa that leads to freedom from all akusala."] Scott: I think the idea of 'Freedom' is a difficult one. Freedom for what? Or whom? How is this word meant, I wonder? If it is the sort of 'freedom' one thinks goes with so-called 'free-will', that old philosopher's chestnut, then I hardly think it is relevant. I don't think 'free' or 'not-free' apply when it comes to a consideration of the meaning of anatta. Imagining that there is 'freedom' somewhere in this comes from attempting to argue in favour of a Theory that a universal characteristic of conditioned dhammas, inherent naturally and through no intervention of any kind by anything or anyone, can be made use of strategically to do something like 'get enlightened'. Regarding: "...there is no freedom (no atta implied) to do kusala or akusala at all..." There is kusala and akusala but No One 'does' them. They Happen. Sincerely, Scott. #79985 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg]To Sarah: vipaka. Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (7) hantun1 Dear Sarah, I am very happy that we have a win/win situation. Looking forward to seeing your other comments when you have time, respectfully, Han #79986 From: Dieter Möller Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:13 am Subject: question from a hermit monk moellerdieter Hi Han, Nina , Sarah, Jon and others , I received following answer from the Venerable: Thank you Dieter Moller for your great effort in Q & S back and forth. I , Ithinandamedha, in person get your replies through my brother-in-law on 30.10.2007. Now I am in Yangon and will leave around 16th Dec 2007. When I share the answers of yours with some of the monks, they were very impressed by the replies. They agreed the conclusive reply via Dr Han Tun is the most sutibale one. For me personally, I am very impressed with the answers I receieve for the great interest and giving such a time to solve this question. I will be very pleased to hear back from you. By the way, there are some Qs I would like to discuss with other Dhamma scholar. So if you can assist me, please do me a favour to contact them. May Dhamma be your daily partner. Ithinandamedha. unquote Han will write to him and possibly suggest how to communciate further. I am pleased about the result and thank you all for the care. With Metta Dieter #79987 From: han tun Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] question from a hermit monk hantun1 Dear Dieter and others, I got contact with U Nanda. Due to some personal reasons I have to delay my departure to 21 December. So I will not meet him in person, but I have given him my address in Bangkok and my temporary address in Yangon. I hope to have further correspondence with him. If he asks me some questions or if he has something to present to the Group, I will post it on-line. [I thank you very much, Dieter, for your kind efforts in bringing the two of us in contact.] Respectfully, Han #79988 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:38 am Subject: Perfections Corner (49) nichiconn Dear All, http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 8: The Perfection of Determination. continued... The wetnurses thought that children usually like cakes, dainties, fruits, toys and different kinds of special food. They gave him all those things so that they could test whether he was really handicapped, but during the five years they tested him they could not discover any weak point. Then the wetnurses thought that children usually are afraid of fire, of a wild elephant, of serpents, of a man brandishing a sword, and therefore they tested the prince with those things, but he did not see any danger in them. The Bodhisatta was unshakable in his resolution because he thought of the danger of hell. He thought, 'the danger of hell is more fearful, it is a hundredfold, a thousandfold, even a hundredthousandfold more fearful.' The wetnurses who tested him in these ways did not see any weak point in the Bodhisatta. They thought that children usually like to watch mimes and therefore they arranged for an assembly of mimes, they arranged for players of conches and drums to cause deafening noises, but they could not make the Bodhisatta change his mind. They lighted lamps in the darkness or a blaze of fire to light up the darkness. They smeared his whole body with molasses and let him lie down in a place infested with flies. They did not let him bathe and made him lie down in his excrements and urine. People were sarcastic towards him, they ridiculed and scolded him, they disapproved of him, because he was laying in his own urine and excrement. They lighted pans of blazing hot fire and put these in the bed under him, they used many tricks to test him, but inspite of all this they could not make the prince change his mind. The wetnurses tested him until he was sixteen years old. They considered, 'When children are sixteen years old, no matter whether they are cripple, deaf and dumb, they all delight in what is enjoyable, or they want to see things that are worth seeing. Therefore we shall arrange for women performing dramas to seduce the prince.' They bathed him in perfumed water and adorned him like a son of the gods, they invited him to a royal suite full of pleasing things. They filled his inner chamber with flowers, with unguents and garlands, just as a dwelling of the gods. They made the women who looked as graceful as Apassara goddesses wait on the prince in order to seduce him and to cause him to take delight in them. However, the Bodhisatta, in his perfect wisdom, stopped his inhalations and exhalations, hoping that the women would not touch his body.When those women could not touch the prince's body, they thought, 'This boy has a rigid body, and thus, he is not a human, but he must be a yakka.' Then they all returned. ..to be continued, connie #79989 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:39 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (71) nichiconn dear friends, Part 18 14. Ti.msanipaato 1. Subhaajiivakambavanikaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 395. "Yathaa haritaalena makkhita.m, addasa cittika.m bhittiyaa kata.m; tamhi te vipariitadassana.m, sa~n~naa maanusikaa niratthikaa. 393. Just as you might see a picture painted on a wall, smeared on with yellow orpiment, your view of this is wrong. The perception they are human beings is groundless. Yathaa haritaalena makkhita.m, addasa cittika.m bhittiyaa katanti yathaa kusalena cittakaarena bhittiya.m haritaalena makkhita.m litta.m tena lepa.m datvaa kata.m aalikhita.m cittika.m itthiruupa.m addasa passeyya. Tattha yaa upathambhanakhepanaadikiriyaasampattiyaa maanusikaa nu kho aya.m bhitti apassaaya .thitaati sa~n~naa, saa niratthakaa manussabhaavasa"nkhaatassa atthassa tattha abhaavato, maanusiiti pana kevala.m tahi.m tassa ca vipariitadassana.m, yaathaavato gaha.na.m na hoti, dhammapu~njamatte itthipurisaadigaha.nampi eva.m sampadamida.m da.t.thabbanti adhippaayo. 393. Just as you might see a picture painted on a wall (bhittiyaa), smeared on with yellow orpiment means: just as you might see (addhas = passeyya) a picture of the form of a woman painted (kata.m - aalikhita.m) on a wall (bhittiay.m) by a skilful painter who has smeared it with yellow orpiment after having prepared the plaster. With regard to that, whoever, because of the successful action [of the painting of the picture] that is put up as a prop, etc, has the perception, "Now human beings are standing, leaning against this wall." She say, "A human woman," [meaning] the non-existence there of a self that is called a human being who is useless. But [there are] only these, and his gaze [has been] confused; he has not grasped it correctly. This is to be understood as nothing but a mass of phenomena, being taken for a woman or a man, etc, as a consequence of that. That is the meaning. 396. "Maaya.m viya aggato kata.m, supinanteva suva.n.napaadapa.m; upagacchasi andha rittaka.m, janamajjheriva rupparuupaka.m. 394. You blind one! You run after an empty thing, like an illusion placed in front of you, like a golden tree in a dream, like silver [coins] in the midst of people. Maaya.m viya aggato katanti maayaakaarena purato upa.t.thaapita.m maayaasadisa.m. Supinanteva suva.n.napaadapanti supinameva supinanta.m, tattha upa.t.thitasuva.n.namayarukkha.m viya. Upagacchasi andha rittakanti andhabaala rittaka.m tucchaka.m antosaararahita.m ima.m attabhaava.m "eta.m mamaa"ti saaravanta.m viya upagacchasi abhinivisasi. Janamajjheriva rupparuupakanti maayaakaarena mahaajanamajjhe dassita.m ruupiyaruupasadisa.m saara.m viya upa.t.thahanta.m, asaaranti attho. 394. Like an illusion (maaya.m) placed in front of you means: like an illusion (maayaa-sadisa.m) put up by a conjurer (maayaa-kaarena). Like a golden tree in a dream (supin'-ante)* means: it is a dream (supina.m = supinanta.m). With regard to that, it is like a tree made of gold standing there. You blind one (andha)! You run after an empty thing means: You blind fool (andha-baala)! You run after, you cling to, this body, which is empty and hollow, which is without any substance within, saying, "This is mine," as if it possessed heartwood. Like silver [coins] (ruppa-ruupaka.m) in the midst of people (jana-majjhe-r-iva) means: like forms of silver (ruupiya-ruupa-sadisa.m) exhibited in the midst of a big crowd (mahaa-jana-majjhe) by a conjurer, they appear as if they have substance. That is the meaning. *PED sv supina says "-anta [anta pleonastic ...] a dream; abl. *ante in a dream." In EV II it is translated as supina + anta, "at the end of a dream." === to be continued, connie #79990 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:48 am Subject: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 5, no 6. nilovg Dear friends, I asked Acharn Sujin why, in particular, visible object seems to appear for a long time. She answered: "It seems to appear for a long time, but when there is more understanding of it, it will appear more shortly. Only one kind of rúpa can be seen. When we are thinking of shape and form, it is remembrance of a concept, different from visible object. There is thinking and remembrance of what is seen. Other rúpas such as hardness or sound do not interest us as much as visible object." The Buddha has taught us the truth of paramattha dhammas he had realized when he attained enlightenment, and that is why we can develop today right understanding of all phenomena of our life. From the following Sutta we can learn that the Dhamma is our true refuge when we see the five khandhas, conditioned nåma and rúpa, as they are: impermanent, dukkha and anattå, non-self. This understanding is developed through satipatthåna. We read in the Kindred Sayings (III, Khandhå-vagga, The First Fifty, Ch 5, On Being an Island to oneself [1] ) that the Buddha said: Monks, be islands to yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other. Those who are islands to themselves... should investigate to the very heart of things: "What is the source of sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair? How do they arise?" Here, monks the uninstructed worldling... regards the body as self, the self as having body, body as being in the self, or the self as being in the body. Change occurs in this man's body, and it becomes different. On account of this change and difference, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair arise. (similarly with feelings, perceptions, mental formations, consciousness.) But seeing the body's impermanence, its changeability, its waning, its ceasing, he says, "formerly as well as now, all bodies were impermanent and unsatisfacory, and subject to change." Thus, seeing this as it really is, with perfect insight, he abandons all sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is not worried at their abandonment, but unworried lives at ease, and thus living at ease he is said to be "assuredly delivered." (Similarly with feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness.) --------- 1. I used the translation by M O' C. Walshe, Wheel Publication No. 318-321. ***** Nina. #79991 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:50 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply: > > A: "Choice = choice of volition (NOT ATTA) to develop itself toward > wholesomeness or not, etc. No need for an actor behind the show." > > Scott: I'm sorry, but I don't think this is correct. I'm possibly > misunderstanding your phrase 'choice of volition' but this is > dualistic and can't occur. Volition is cetanaa cetasika, which has as >>> What I was trying to say was that the development of stream of changes follows probabilities rather than certainties. Or in other words, there is some areas of freedom for volition. > are referring to some sort of intermediate state vis-a-vis control. > Anatta as characteristic means No Control. None. Not too much, nor > too little but None. No Mastery. I'm not following the whole 'fork > in the road' thing. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > So are you saying that there is no possibility of chosing to do bad or good things? Are you saying that each of us is like a spinning wheel thrown off a hill and will stop on its own without hastening or slowing down the process? Sad sad indeed. If "there is suffering" and no way of making it cease... So pessemistic that it simply couldn't be the Buddha's word... Lots of Metta, Alex #79992 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:05 am Subject: [dsg] Re: freedom. was: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Dear Nina & Scott --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > The Buddha's teaching is so straight to the point, it is beautiful > because truthful. It teaches us that whatever we do is dependent on > conditions. Time and again we believe that 'we' can do this or that > to reach the goal faster, but in reality such belief slows down the > whole process. >>> That is JAIN concept, not a Buddhist one. Thank Buddha I am a Buddhist. Jains believed that what happens today is dependent on what happened before. Ultimately as I understand it, the Jain practice culminated in total not doing anything. Not even eating. So the culmination of stopping all Kamma was to die by starvation. The Buddha taught a much more dynamic causality. He didn't teach determininism (which would be implied that all present is conditioned by the past). What happens now is not only dependent on past causes but it ALSO depends on present input (ie: does feeling leads to craving or not) . This present input (vijja or avijja for example, sati or not, etc) is extremely important. It can start to disassemble the entire vicious circle of DO. Lets say: Person A (written for grammatical purposes, no atta implied) chose option A. He had to choose it because of all past conditionings, these and those factors. However he could have went against past conditioning (which is very hard to do, of course) and chose option B. So he (again used for communication purposes. No atta) HAD a choice and he chose option A rather than B. Belief in no (right) effort IS wrong Belief. Luckily Buddha didn't teach it. Lots of Metta, Alex #79993 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy upasaka_howard Hi, Scott & Alex - In a message dated 12/9/2007 11:42:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, scduncan@... writes: A: "Subject to 'control' of impersonal process. Let us remember the middle way between 2 extremes of total or zero control. None of this implies atta. What this implies is that there are situations which are like a fork in the road, one way leads to one direction another "path" leads to another direction." Scott: This use of the term 'middle way' is not accurate here, if you are referring to some sort of intermediate state vis-a-vis control. Anatta as characteristic means No Control. None. Not too much, nor too little but None. No Mastery. I'm not following the whole 'fork in the road' thing. ================================== From Nyanatiloka's dictionary: _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ cetanÄ?: 'volition', will, is one of the seven mental factors (cetasika, q.v.) inseparably bound up with all consciousness, namely sensorial or mental impression (phassa), feeling (vedanÄ?), perception (saññÄ?), volition (cetanÄ?), concentration (samÄ?dhi), vitality (jÄ«vita), advertence (manasikÄ?ra). Cf. Tab. II, III. With regard to kammical volition (i.e. wholesome or unwholesome kamma) it is said in A. VI, 13: "Volition is action (kamma), thus I say, o monks; for as soon as volition arises, one does the action, be it by body, speech or mind." For details, s. paá¹?da (10), kamma. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The Buddha was rather clear on that, I think. Following immediately in the wake of volition is bodily, verbal, or mental action. I understand that as willing in the usual sense. In the non-arahant, sense of self is often a condition for it. In an arahant, the willing is always kiriya (functional). Note, BTW, how the Buddha used normal, human speech even though he knew there is no actual actor. One more point, there is no need to mention control, positively or negatively, with respect to willing, but, in any case, for me willing and control no more require "one who wills" or a "controller" than raining requires a "rainer" or thinking, hearing, tasting, smelling, seeing, or feeling (all perfectly fine namas) require a thinker, hearer, taster, smeller, seer, or feeler. =========================== With metta, Howard #79994 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: freedom. was: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Hi Nina& Scott --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Nina and Alex, > > I liked this bit of conversation: > N: "...The Buddha's teaching is so straight to the point, it is > beautiful because truthful. >>> The phrase reminds me of a communistic slogan: "Communism is all powerful because it is correct" (or something like that). > Scott: I think the idea of 'Freedom' is a difficult one. Freedom for what? Or whom? How is this word meant, I wonder? If it is the sort of 'freedom' one thinks goes with so-called 'free-will', that old > philosopher's chestnut, then I hardly think it is relevant. >>>> Scott. It means that stream of cittas or causality or whatever - can develop kusala as opposed to akusala (which would be the 'normal' stream) factors. There are probabilities as opposed to strict deterministic rules. Even though the minds natural tendency is toward bad or mixed states, it can by itself, due to proper causes be trained to develop toward kusala, wholesome states . It is absolute heresy to think that nothing can be done to develop kusala as opposed to akusala factors. Lots of Metta, Alex #79995 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:27 am Subject: A Reminder for Us Clingers-to-Views upasaka_howard Hi, all - From time to time, I find it useful to re-read Samyutta Nikaya 4.12 that I copy at the end of this post. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) ______________________________________ Sn 4.12 Cula-viyuha Sutta The Lesser Array Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu PTS: Sn 878-894 ____________________________________ Source: Transcribed from a file provided by the translator. ____________________________________ Copyright © 1994 Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight edition © 1994 For free distribution. This work may be republished, reformatted, reprinted, and redistributed in any medium. It is the author's wish, however, that any such republication and redistribution be made available to the public on a free and unrestricted basis and that translations and other derivative works be clearly marked as such. ____________________________________ "Dwelling on their own views, quarreling, different skilled people say: 'Whoever knows this, understands Dhamma. Whoever rejects this, is imperfect.' Thus quarreling, they dispute: 'My opponent's a fool & unskilled.' Which of these statements is true when all of them say they are skilled?" "If, in not accepting an opponent's doctrine, one's a fool, a beast of inferior discernment, then all are fools of inferior discernment — all of these who dwell on their views. But if, in siding with a view, one's cleansed, with discernment made pure, intelligent, skilled, then none of them are of inferior discernment, for all of them have their own views. I don't say, 'That's how it is,' the way fools say to one another. They each make out their views to be true and so regard their opponents as fools." "What some say is true — 'That's how it is' — others say is 'falsehood, a lie.' Thus quarreling, they dispute. Why can't contemplatives say one thing & the same?" "The truth is one,_1_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.12.than.html#n-1) there is no second about which a person who knows it would argue with one who knows. Contemplatives promote their various personal truths, that's why they don't say one thing & the same." "But why do they say various truths, those who say they are skilled? Have they learned many various truths or do they follow conjecture?" "Apart from their perception there are no many various constant truths in the world._2_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.12.than.html#n-2) Preconceiving conjecture with regard to views, they speak of a pair: true & false. Dependent on what's seen, heard, & sensed, dependent on precepts & practices, one shows disdain [for others]. Taking a stance on his decisions, praising himself, he says, 'My opponent's a fool & unskilled.' That by which he regards his opponents as fools is that by which he says he is skilled. Calling himself skilled he despises another who speaks the same way. Agreeing on a view gone out of bounds, drunk with conceit, thinking himself perfect, he has consecrated, with his own mind, himself as well as his view. If, by an opponent's word, one's inferior, the opponent's of inferior discernment as well. But if, by one's own word one's an attainer-of-wisdom, enlightened, no one among contemplative's a fool. 'Those who teach a doctrine other than this are lacking in purity, imperfect.' That's what the many sectarians say, for they're smitten with passion for their own views. 'Only here is there purity,' that's what they say. 'In no other doctrine is purity,' they say. That's how the many sectarians are entrenched, speaking firmly there concerning their own path. Speaking firmly concerning your own path, what opponent here would you take as a fool? You'd simply bring quarrels on yourself if you said your opponent's a fool with an impure doctrine. Taking a stance on your decisions, & yourself as your measure, you dispute further down into the world. But one who's abandoned all decisions creates in the world quarrels no more." ____________________________________ Notes _1_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.12.than.html#t-1) . "The truth is one": This statement should be kept in mind throughout the following verses, as it forms the background to the discussion of how people who preconceive their conjectures speak of the pair, true and false. The Buddha is not denying that there is such a thing as true and false. Rather, he is s aying that all entrenched views, regardless of how true or false their content might be, when considered as events in a causal chain behave in line with the truth of conditioned phenomena as explained in the preceding discourse. If held to, they lead to conceit, conflict, and states of becoming. When they are viewed in this way — as events rather than as true or false depictions of other events (or as events rather than signs) — the tendency to hold to or become entrenched in them is diminished. _2_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.12.than.html#t-2) . On the role of perception in leading to conflicting views, see the _preceding discourse_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.4.11.than.html) . See also: _AN 10.93_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.093.than.html) ; _AN 10.96_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.096.than.html) . #79996 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] suttas. nilovg Dear Dieter, I looked at the Pali. Op 5-dec-2007, om 19:26 heeft Dieter Möller het volgende geschreven: > "It is difficult to do, Lord, very difficult to do!" > > Yet what is difficult to do they do - > Disciples virtuous with collected minds. > For those who enter in the homeless state > There is contentment bringing bliss."It is difficult to attain, > Lord, this contentment!" > > Yet what is difficult to attain they attain, > Those devoted to stilling the mind. > For them both day and night > The mind delights in meditation."It is difficult, Lord, to > concentrate the mind!" > > Yet what is difficult to concentrate they concentrate, > Those devoted to controlling the senses. > Breaking through Death's net those > Noble Ones walk freely, Kaamada."It is difficult, Lord, going on an > uneven path!" > > Yet along this uneven path they walk, > Those Nobles Ones, Kaamada. > On the uneven the ignoble fall headlong, > But the way is even for the Noble, > For over the uneven they walk evenly.- SN 2.6 > ------------ > Dieter: 'Yet what is difficult to attain they attain, > Those devoted to stilling the mind. > For them both day and night > The mind delights in meditation."It is difficult, Lord, to > concentrate the mind!" (?) ------ D:Stilling the mind relates to the 5 hindrances ..you may remember the simile of water in a pot .. the ground cannot be clearly seen There is no real insight possible when the mind is not at peace (the monkey), whether we are talking about samma sati or samma samadhi. The issue of meditation.. ;-) --------- I would like to give a Pali passage first. KÄ?madasuttaṃ DullabhÄ? bhagavÄ? yadidaṃ tuá¹¹«ti. N: It is difficult to obtain, Lord, that is, contentment. -------- Dullabhaṃ vÄ?pi labhanti (kÄ?madÄ?ti bhagavÄ?) CittavÅ«pasame ratÄ?, ------- N: ...Devoted (rata) to calm of mind -------- Yesaṃ divÄ? ca ratto ca BhÄ?vanÄ?ya rato manoti, ------ N: Day and night (divÄ? ca ratto ca) their mind is devoted to mental development (bhaavanaa) ------ DussamÄ?dahaṃ bhagavÄ? yadidaṃ cittanti. ------ N: Concentrating is difficult, Lord, that is the mind. --------- As to bhaavanaa, the co adds: development of the citta so that it is calm. The question is: what kind of calm, the temporal calm as found in samatha or the calm that is freedom from defilements. The aim is arahatship, the Buddha speaks about the arahat who will reach the deathless. In the beginning the sutta speaks about the sekha, the learner. As we know the sotaapanna (and all ariyans) is established in siila, siila samaahita. As to concentration, the learners are endowed with the ariyan concentration, the concentration that is a factor fo the eightfold Path. You wrote: . Suppressing them is achieved in samatha, but that is temporal. In this sutta we have to remember that the Buddha speaks about the arahat, breaking through Death's net. N: They have to be aware of the hindrances, otherwise these cannot be eradicated. See Satipatthanasutta:under mindfulness of dhammas, the hindrances. They have to be seen as dhammas, otherwise they cannot be eradicated. They are under the fourth Application of Mindfulness. -------- Nina. #79997 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:16 am Subject: Re: A Reminder for Us Clingers-to-Views truth_aerator Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > From time to time, I find it useful to re-read Samyutta Nikaya 4.12 that > I copy at the end of this post. > > With metta, > Howard > Thank you very much Howard. I guess this is one of many of attachments that I have to work on. Good sutta. I need to read it again. Lots of Metta, Alex #79998 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: A Reminder for Us Clingers-to-Views upasaka_howard Hi, Alex - In a message dated 12/10/2007 11:16:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > From time to time, I find it useful to re-read Samyutta Nikaya 4.12 that > I copy at the end of this post. > > With metta, > Howard > Thank you very much Howard. I guess this is one of many of attachments that I have to work on. Good sutta. I need to read it again. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that what you write here is true for every single one of us without exception! :-) ---------------------------------------------------- Lots of Metta, Alex ========================= With metta, Howard #79999 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:46 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hello, Andrew Thanks for giving me the reference to "Dhammdinna sutta." I got misled by reading Dhammdinnaa for dhammadinna. Ven. Bukkhuni Dhammadinnaa was the female-arahant counterpart of Ven. Saariputta. Well, what made you go into this sutta? There is virtually nothing worthwhile in the commentary or in the sub-commentaries about this sutta. So I will give my understanding of the sutta. My usual approach is to try to understand a sutta contextually. So I will go that way: The sutta commences with the lay follower Dhammadinna visiting the Buddha with five hundred lay followers. It is interesting to note that the Buddha was dwelling at Isipatana--the venue of Dhammacakkappavattana. The Pali word that is translated as lay-follower is "upaasaka." It is a techincal term in Dhamma meaning one who has gone to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha for refuge for life. Normally, the disciples of the Buddha comprise: bhikkhu, bhikkhunii, upaasaka upaasikaa--monks, nuns, male lay-disciples and female lay diciples. So we need to keep this in our mind. After paying respect to the Buddha, the Dhammdinna upaasaka requests the Buddha to advice them as followsa: "Let the Blessed One, venerable sir, exhort us and instruct us in a way that may lead to our welfare and happiness for a long time." The Pali words 'ovadatu...anusaasatu' has been translated exhort and instruct. These translations capture the meaning, but this need to be added. Ovaada is advice that tells somebody the correct thing to do; anusaasati means according to the Dhamma. The expression 'dharma - anusaasana' is very commonly used here to indicate a Dhamma-talk (I prefer not to use preaching). The phrase "that may lead to our welfare and happiness for a long time. The Pali is " diigharatta.m hitaaya sukhaays" This is a statndard or stock expression used to indicate, that the Dhamma is connected with sa.msaara, and not with Nibbaana. As upaasakas they are endowed with the sila-the five precepts. The word endowed with means, they will not break the precepts knowingly. The Buddha's answer is "Therefore, Dhammadinna, you should train yourselves thus: 'From time to time we will enter and dwell upon those discourses spoken by the Tathaagata that are deep, deep in meaninng, suparamundane, dealing with emptiness." It is in such a way that that you should train yourselves." The Buddha advises them to train themselves (sikkhitabba.m). Now one cannot enter or dwell upon the suttas. The sutta here refers to the dhamma now made into suttas for purposes of remembering and not discourses in general and connected with the path and training directly. The Pali that is translated is "upasampajja viharassaama." The word upasampajja defies translations; may be one can say "to become"; that is for example if you undertake the first precept, then your behaviour is such that whatever the provocation is you don't kill. So this expression means that you behave strictly according to the dhamma that you have undertaken to observe. You may notice that the sentence begins wiht 'from time to time.' This is important: you are not to dwell in these "suttas" all the time. The Buddha's exhortation is for them to "meditate"--to develop the path that culminates in sammaasamaadhi. The Pali describing the sutta is: "tathaagatsbhaasita (spoken by the tathaagata), deep with deep meaning (in the sense of giving welfare and happiness-gambhiiraa gambhiratthaa); "lokuttaraa," this should not be understood in the normal sense of supramundane; it really means it is above the our puthujjana world; "su~n~natapa.tisa.myuttaa"--I wouldn't translate this as dealing with emptiness; I would understand it as "empty of the world--really empty of any 'contact' with the world through all the senses. A description of sammaa-samaadhi. In short, Buddha advised them to train in Samaadhi. The next the lay disciple Dhammadinna tells the Buddha, they are householders who enjoy the pleasures of the senses (gihii kaamabhogii); this is another standard formula, see for example Kaalaama sutta; and it is difficult for them to "meditate" and request the Buddha: "As we are established in the five training rules, let the Blessed One teach us the Dhamma further." (pancasu sikkhaapadesu .thitaana.m uttaridhamm.m desesu). The five training rules are the five precepts. What is important here is the word .thitaa--that is established in the five precepts. Establishment in sila is the first step in the path, whether for the lay disciple or the monk. The visuddhimagga of aacaariya Buddhghosa is an attempt to expound the gaathaa: "siile pati.t.thaaya naro sapa~n~no, citta.m pa~n~anca bhaavaya.m..." So they do not want to go through the path of the monk, but still want the advice on "uttaridhamma" (higher dhamma). Then the Buddha advises them: "...We will possess confirmed confidence in the Buddha...Dhamma...Sangha and most importantly "...We will possess the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken ... leading to concentration." The word unbroken this is usually followed by a long string of adjectives to indicate that it is the perfection of the siila; however, the more theoretically important word here is leading to concentration (samaadhisamvattanikehi). It is important because samaadhi is causally connected to perfection of siila. When you perfect your siila, there is no need for you to make any effort to get samaadhi. It happens. The confirmed confidence is aveccappasaada in Pali. This is wrong; a misreading of the suttas. It is actually the result of personal experience. People, during the Buddhas time became upaasakas by listening to the Buddha and accepting his Dhamma as something rational. "Abhikkanta.m bho Gotama..." Repeated in countless suttas given to non-Buddhist who got converted. In fact if they have any doubts they were asked by the Buddha to examine him, see Canki, Vimamasaka and so on. It is not any mysterious confidence. It is knowledge--what we call knowlede not knowledge or pa~n~naa in the sense. Once you become an Upasaka the process of conversion to pa~n~naa begins; this is what is called pa~n~naasampadaa. That you do by observing the five precepts. When you do so you perfect sila (five precepts), perfect you acceptance of the Buddha, Dhamma and the Sangha (aveccappasada) or saddhaasampadaa. In dhamma, behaviour and knowledge go together--vijjaacara.na--siilapa~n~naa. The training in "meditation" given above is really the three anussati--Buddhaanussati, Dhamma, Sangha. I forgot one point; Sangha serves two purposes. They are living examples of the truth of the Buddha's teaching and are also the kalyaan.namittas (teachers). When the Buddha gave this advice, Dhammadinna told the Buddha that he and his people possess aveccappasaada and the ariyakaanta sila (ariyakaanta siila is the five-precepts perfected). Buddha then told them they are sotapannas--stream enterers. This is explained thorought the sotapatii samyutta. The message of the sutta is: if you are a gihi, and still wish to move in the direction of Nibbaana, then perfect the five precepts; along with this you will develop aveccappasada in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha. And when you perfect them, you will be a stream-enterer. Andrew, I dashed off the above in a hurry and had to take so many shortcuts to keep it within reasonable length. I am sure there will be many typos, and grammar mistakes. So please read it carefully, and please send me your comments. It was a real plesure translating the sutta. As far as Bhikkhu Bodhis translation is concerned, I don't think it is a good one. But on the other hand there is no other better translation. All English translations suffer from the fact that there are no English equivalent for some of the Buddhist concepts. But there is a way out. You should start with the Four Noble Truths as a set of axioms and then develop the rest. Kind regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna Messages 79990 - 79999 of 79999