#80800 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 12:28 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy kenhowardau Hi James, -------- J: > I find this discussion really funny! To use an analogy, it reminds me of swimming. Howard is saying that one must swim! Sarah is saying that she isn't going to swim -------- You haven't been listening. Sarah has always said there was no control over ultimate reality. She has never claimed to be able to prevent satipatthana from occurring. --------------------- J: > until she knows everything involved in swimming, can read all about swimming in a book, can have discussions about swimming with fellow people, etc. because she is afraid of drowning. And that is what it comes down to: Sarah is afraid and Howard isn't afraid. But, as Howard keeps telling Sarah, DON'T BE AFRAID AND JUST JUMP IN!! ---------------------- In my opinion Sarah practises the Buddha's teaching more than any of us. This is because she understands it. Right understanding and right practice are one and the same. ------------------ J: > That would be impossible for Sarah right now because she is too afraid. ------------------- Facing up to anatta and no-control the way Sarah does requires pure courage. Formal meditation, by comparison, is like clinging Mummy's apron strings. Ken H #80801 From: Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 12:54 am Subject: Swimming analogy jonoabb Hi James (and Howard) > From: "buddhatrue" > Date: 2008/01/05 Sat AM 11:48:40 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy > > Hi Sarah and Howard, > ... > I find this discussion really funny! To use an > analogy, it reminds me of swimming. I don't think the "swimming" analogy is a helpful one. Swimming is an activity, one that can be easily explained to and understood by all. So anyone can have a go and do a passable job of it. Insight is altogether a different thing. It develops, or grows, when the conditions for its development/growth are fulfilled. It cannot be made to grow, any more than a tree can. Also, swimming is an activity that is done *by someone*. Understanding, however, is a mental factor; thus it's development is not something that is done *by someone* (or some thing). It grows independently of its growth being willed. > Howard is saying that one must swim! I don't think this is what Howard is saying. His description of meditation is "a mental activity consciously and intentionally engaged in that supports the growth of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na." This means an activity that, while not itself sila, samadhi or panna, and hence not kusala, brings about the arising or growth of kusala qualities. So it's not swimming, but some kind of non-swimming pre-activity that leads to swimming ;-)) (My apologies to Howard if I've misconstrued his comments) Jon #80803 From: "jonoabb" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 1:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! jonoabb Hi Tep Many thanks for your New Year wishes. I wish the same to you! My new year is off to a busy start. I am in Fiji doing some work for the government. Today (Saturday) was spent in the office, but tomorrow looks like being a day off (so far, anyway)! Looking forward to seeing your contribution to the discussion again. Jon PS Pls ignore the msg sent a short time ago from the mods account in error --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi all, - > > I'd like to join Robert to wish Jon, Sarah, Nina and other DSG members > a very happy and peaceful New Year! > > Thank you for the lively and beneficial dhamma discussions you made in > 2007. > > Looking ahead, may 2008 also be a good year. > > Best wishes, > > Tep > === #80804 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 3:19 am Subject: Noting the Breakup! bhikkhu0 Friends: The 8 Advantages of contemplating Dissolution: When one continually notes the breakup of all constructions, then contemplation of Dissolution grows strong & habitual! This brings these 8 advantages into being: 1: Elimination of false view of & constancy & eternal (re)becoming 2: Letting go of attachment to life itself & any being in existence 3: Constant & continuous improvement & progress in release 4: Purified livelihood & morality 5: Freedom from Anxiety 6: Absence of Fear 7: Patience & Gentleness 8: Victory over both Attraction & Aversion Source: The Path of Purification XXI-28: Visuddhimagga-Magga [645]: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771100 As free book here: http://www.budaedu.org/en/book/II-02main.php3 Regarding which the Ancient Elders remarked: On realizing these 8 perfect qualities, One comprehends constructions fully, Continually Noting their Breakup in order To swiftly attain the Deathless State of Bliss, like the Sage with a burning turban. See: SN 56:34 [V,440] Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ... #80805 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 4:07 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 3 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa Tena vutta.m apadaane (apa. therii 2.1.1-19)- "Bhagavati ko.naagamane, sa"nghaaraamamhi navanivesamhi; sakhiyo tisso janiyo, vihaaradaana.m adaasimha. "Dasakkhattu.m satakkhattu.m, dasasatakkhattu.m sataani ca satakkhattu.m; devesu upapajjimha, ko pana vaado manussesu. "Devesu mahiddhikaa ahumha, maanusakamhi ko pana vaado; sattaratanassa mahesii, itthiratana.m aha.m aasi.m. "Idha sa~ncitakusalaa, susamiddhakulappajaa; dhana~njaanii ca khemaa ca, ahampi ca tayo janaa. "Aaraama.m sukata.m katvaa, sabbaavayavama.n.dita.m; buddhappamukhasa"nghassa, niyyaadetvaa pamoditaa. As it is said in the Apadaana:* At the time of the Blessed One Ko.naagamana, in the Order's park, in a new residence, we three friends, women, gave a gift of a residence. Ten times, a hundred times, ten hundred times, a hundred hundred times, we were born among the devas. But what to say [of the number of times] among men! We were of great power among the devas. But what to say [of our power] among men! I was the woman jewel, the chief queen [of a king possessing] seven jewels. Having accumulated merit, as children in very rich families her, Dhana~njaanii and Khemaa and I were [born as] three women.** Having made a well-fashioned park adorned with all its requisites, we presented it to the Order headed by the Buddha and rejoiced. *Ap 512f., n*1. **Presumably Therii Khemaa and a brahman woman who persuades her husband to go to the Buddha (see DPPN sv Dhaana~njaanii and S I 159f). "Yattha yatthuupapajjaami, tassa kammassa vaahasaa; devesu aggata.m pattaa, manussesu tatheva ca. "Imasmi.myeva kappamhi, brahmabandhu mahaayaso; kassapo naama gottena, uppajji vadata.m varo. "Upa.t.thaako mahesissa, tadaa aasi narissaro; kaasiraajaa kikii naama, baaraa.nasipuruttame. "Tassaasu.m satta dhiitaro, raajaka~n~naa sukhedhitaa; buddhopa.t.thaananirataa, brahmacariya.m cari.msu taa. "Taasa.m sahaayikaa hutvaa, siilesu susamaahitaa; datvaa daanaani sakkacca.m, agaareva vata.m cari.m. Wherever I was reborn, thanks to that deed, I gained pre-eminence among devas and also among men. In this very aeon, the Brahmaa Kinsman of Great Fame, Kassapa by name, the Best of Speakers, was born. At that time, the Great Sage's servant was the ruler named Kikii, who was the king of Kaasi in the great city of Baraa.nasii. He had seven daughters, princesses who grew up in comfort, delighting in the service of the Buddha, they led the holy life. I was a friend of theirs, intent on virtuous conduct, giving gifts respectully, I followed the observance [of the holy life] at home.* *She is presumably following the example of the daughters of King Kikii who hwer not permitted to ordain but who practised the holy life at home. "Tena kammena sukatena, cetanaapa.nidhiihi ca; jahitvaa maanusa.m deha.m, taavati.msuupagaa aha.m. "Tato cutaa yaamamaga.m, tatoha.m tusita.m gataa; tato ca nimmaanarati.m, vasavattipura.m gataa. "Yattha yatthuupapajjaami, pu~n~nakammasamohitaa; tattha tattheva raajuuna.m, mahesittamahaarayi.m. "Tato cutaa manussatte, raajuuna.m cakkavattina.m; ma.n.daliina~nca raajuuna.m, mahesittamakaarayi.m. "Sampattimanubhotvaana, devesu maanusesu ca; sabbattha sukhitaa hutvaa, nekajaatiisu sa.msari.m. As a result of those virtuous deeds and of my resolve and purpose, when I abandoned my human body, I went to the Taavati.msa realm. Passing away from there, I went to the Yaama realm. From there I went to the Tusita realm, and from there the Nimmaanarati realm; from there, the dwelling place of Vasavattii. Wherever I was reborn, due to that meritorious deed, I ruled there as chief queen of the kings [of those deva realms]. Passing away from there, in human lives, I ruled as the chief queen of a king who was a wheel-turning monarch and of kings ruling a country. I enjoyed prosperity among devas and men. I was happy everywhere, journeying on for many aeons. "So hetu so pabhavo, tammuula.m saava saasane khantii; ta.m pa.thamasamodhaana.m, ta.m dhammarataaya nibbaana.m. "Kilesaa jhaapitaa mayha.m, bhavaa sabbe samuuhataa; naagiiva bandhana.m chetvaa, viharaami anaasavaa. "Svaagata.m vata me aasi, buddhase.t.thassa santike; tisso vijjaa anuppattaa, kata.m buddhassa saasana.m. "Pa.tisambhidaa catasso, vimokkhaapi ca a.t.thime; cha.labhi~n~naa sacchikataa, kata.m buddhassa saasanan"ti. That was the cause, that was the reason, that was the origin, that indeed was my acceptance* of the teaching. That was the first application. That was quenching for one delighting in the Doctrine. All my defilements are burnt out. All my existences have been destroyed. I dwell without taints like a female elephant that has broken its bonds. Welcome indeed was the presence of the Best of Buddhas to me. I have attained the three true knowledges. I have done the Buddha's teaching. The four discriminations and also the eight complete releases are mine. I have realized the six direct knowledges; I have done the Buddha's teaching. *Khantii. This meaning is not in PED. See MLDB. == to be continued, connie #80806 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 6:37 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 1, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, Acharn Sujin had asked Lodewijk to address the monks on this occasion, and he spoke the following words: Venerable Monks, On behalf of this group of Thai and foreign pilgrims under the spiritual leadership of Acharn Sujin Boriharnwanaket and the practical leadership of Mr. Suwat Chansuvityanant, I wish to thank you for giving us this opportunity to perform Sangha Dåna. We wish to pay our deepest respect to you and to the memory of the Ven. Anagarika Dharmapala, the founder of the Mahå-Bodhi Society of India, who revived Buddhism in India. We admire your courage to go forth from home into homelessness. You carry a heavy, almost awesome responsibility to preserve and to propagate the Buddha’s teachings. Our world is threatened by war, terrorism, religious intolerance and fundamentalism. How can Buddhists contribute to peace and understanding? The answer is not obvious. From my discussions with my wife Nina in the last few weeks, four elements, basic tenets of the Buddhis teachings come to my mind. First: the anusayas, the latent tendencies, unwholesome inclinations that lie dormant in each citta. Why do governments and people never seem to learn from history and continue to make the same mistakes? The answer is, partly, ignorance of the anusayas. Knowing one’s anusayas is very basic. We also have to develop the perfection of truthfulness in knowing and understanding our anusayas. Second: Satipatthåna. Last week Nina and I visited the place Kuru in Eastern New Delhi, where the Lord Buddha preached the Satipatthåna Sutta. The place is now clean, well kept and well guarded. Now trees have been planted. Sitting besides the rock inscription of King Ashoka, Nina read to me the Satipatthåna Sutta. It was very peaceful. Far from getting the full meaning of the sutta, I understood at least clearly that the four applications of mindfulness are not theory, but pertain to everyday life and basic human behaviour. Third: the four Brahma Vihåras of mettå, loving kindness, karuùa, compassion, muditå, sympathetic joy and upekkhå, equanimity, which are the fundamentals of any peaceful society. The importance of the four Brahma Vihåras cannot be stressed enough. Fourth: good friendship and association with the wise. I wish to take this opportunity to thank Acharn Sujin and all our Thai friends and also our foreign friends, including Sarah and Jonothan Abbot, for helping us in trying to understand the Dhamma. From the immense wealth of the Buddhist teachings, these four elements come to my mind: understanding the latent tendencies, satipatthåna, the four Brahma Vihåras and good friendship and association with the wise. By observing and being mindful of these four elements and by living in accordance with these elements, Buddhists can contribute to peace and understanding. Therefore, venerable monks, whilst thanking you again for giving us this opportunity to perform Sangha Dåna, we urge, we pray you to persevere in your formidable task of preserving and propagating the teachings. ******* Nina. #80807 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) upasaka_howard Hi, Larry & Nina - In a message dated 1/5/2008 12:13:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: ~Nanarama p.19: The first stage of insight meditation is called Purification of View. This purification consists in arousing insight into mind-and-matter (namarupa), using the meditation subject as a basis. Here the aspect "matter" (rupa) covers the physical side of existence, the aggregate of material form. The aspect "mind" (nama) covers the mental side of existence, the four aggregates of feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness. Purification of View is attained as the meditator goes on attending to his meditation subject with a unified mind equipped with the six cleansings and the four conditions relating to the development of the spiritual faculties. "Now the meditation subject begins to appear to him as consisting of two functionally distinguishable parts--mind and matter--rather than as a single unit. This purification gains its name because it marks the initial breakaway from all speculative views headed by personality view." ==================================== What sort of meditation subject is involved here? First of all, since this speaks of "insight meditation," while the attention may be *centered* about a slightly restricted aggregation of data (e.g., breath sensations, aka "the breath", or, more generally, bodily sensations, aka "the body"), nothing is excluded from awareness. But if there is but "one subject", how would it have distinguishable mind & matter "parts". I find this confusing. When I "meditate on the breath", what is actually observed are the following: 1) most centrally touch sensations directly due to breathing, 2) secondarily other bodily sensations arising apparently as a result of attending to breath sensations or to heightened attention in general (generally pleasant pulsing & vibratory sensations felt suffusing the body, most especially the limbs, but also occasional unpleasant sensations such as itches), 3) thirdly other sensations arising at eye door and ear door, and finally 4) mind door operations such as feeling, willing, attending, background thinking, recognition, insights such as knowing of mental phenomena as mental and physical phenomena as physical, and just being conscious, and mental conditions such as joy, peace, and collectedness or, early on, the various hindrances. But there is no "meditation subject" involved that seems to have "functionally distinguishable parts--mind and matter." What is rupa is rupa, and what is nama is nama. An "external" kasina (not the minds-eye reflex of it or "internalized kasina") may seem to be physical, but the fact is that it is purely mental, being conceptual. It has no material "part". It is a mental construct *based* on eye-door rupas, but itself is purely conceptual, not something separable into "functionally distinguishable parts--mind and matter." Perhaps what the author has in mind by "the meditation subject ... consisting of two functionally distinguishable parts--mind and matter" is, for example, that "the breath" is nama, specifically a concept that is an aggregation of bodily rupas mentally grasped as a unit, and he is thinking of these rupas as constituting "a part" of the breath. But that is not so. They do not. [That's apples (rupa) and oranges (nama)]. In any case, that conceptual "subject" is dropped almost immediately when, very quickly, attention turns to the bodily sensations that are the basis for that concept. The concept of breath serves only to initially direct attention to, and center it about, a delimited range of rupas - that is all. With metta, Howard #80808 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 2:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/5/2008 2:28:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, Howard: "I had gotten the impression that you seemed to think that recognition implies permanence, and that is what I addressed. Ah, well! ;-)" Larry: I do think recognition implies permanence. I don't see how recognition could recognize anything without thinking this is the same as that. You said that, to the contrary, we know that this is not the same as that. I think we know this because of insight. Recognition sees similarities and insight sees differences. But they work together. They don't contradict each other. I also think signs imply permanence. That is another topic but also has to do with perception. Larry ============================= Ah, okay. Well, we just don't see this one the same way. ;-) With metta, Howard #80809 From: "Robert" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 7:46 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 1, no 3. avalo1968 Hello Nina, Thank you for this posting. I will be helpful for all of us. Robert A. #80810 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 9:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! buddhistmedi... Hi Jon, - You replied: > > Many thanks for your New Year wishes. I wish the same to you! > > My new year is off to a busy start. I am in Fiji doing some work for > the government. Today (Saturday) was spent in the office, but > tomorrow looks like being a day off (so far, anyway)! > > Looking forward to seeing your contribution to the discussion again. > > Jon If the first week of the U.S. stock markets is bullish, the investors are hopeful that the remaining of the year will also be profitable. In the same token you should be glad that your new year started very well. I hope to see your contribution too. Tep === #80811 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 4:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! upasaka_howard Hi, Tep (and Jon) - In a message dated 1/5/2008 12:08:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tepsastri@... writes: Hi Jon, - You replied: > > Many thanks for your New Year wishes. I wish the same to you! > > My new year is off to a busy start. I am in Fiji doing some work for > the government. Today (Saturday) was spent in the office, but > tomorrow looks like being a day off (so far, anyway)! > > Looking forward to seeing your contribution to the discussion again. > > Jon If the first week of the U.S. stock markets is bullish, the investors are hopeful that the remaining of the year will also be profitable. In the same token you should be glad that your new year started very well. I hope to see your contribution too. Tep ================================= Did you check yesterday's market results? :-( With metta, Howard #80812 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] sa~n~naa, was: thoughts on practice nilovg Hi Larry, Op 5-jan-2008, om 4:36 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > "What if you do not recognize someone you meet? There is still > sa~n~naa. When forgetting, there is still sa~n`naa." > > Larry: I agree that sa~n~naa has different functions. An important one > is the formation of signs (nimitta). But I think not recognizing > someone > or forgetting is more a matter of ignorance than the functioning of > sa~n~naa. Although it's very subtle, all the little things that happen > when we forget and know we forget. Very tricky. Plus the whole > issue of > memory is a little cloudy in abhidhamma. -------- N: When something in the Abhidhamma is not so clear, it is our poor understanding. And even at such moments there is sa~n~naa, it is never lacking. It is even perversity of sa~n~naa, since it is akusala. ------ > L: But I think not recognizing someone or forgetting is more a > matter of ignorance than the functioning of sa~n~naa. -------- > N: This is not a function of sa~n`naa, but sa~n~naa accompanies the > akusala citta. We have more often akusala sa~n~naa than kusala > sa~n~naa. This is not too difficult to realize. Nina. #80813 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:07 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 1, no 3. buddhistmedi... Hi Nina (and Lodewijk), - Thank you for posting this interesting speech. > L: From the immense wealth of the Buddhist teachings, these four > elements come to my mind: understanding the latent tendencies, > satipatthåna, the four Brahma Vihåras and good friendship and > association with the wise. By observing and being mindful of these > four elements and by living in accordance with these elements, > Buddhists can contribute to peace and understanding. I think Lodewijk gave an excellent answer to "Why do governments and people never seem to learn from history and continue to make the same mistakes?", but his speech does not fully address the problem solution. Implementing the four elements and "living in accordance with these elements" are the solution, I believe. But how would you convince these "governments and people" to change their lifestyles and earnestly begin to live in accordance with these elements as soon as possible for the sake of innocent people? What would motivate them to change? I bet you that at least 99% of the government officials do not even have untorn, unbroken Five Precepts to begin with. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear friends, > > Acharn Sujin had asked Lodewijk to address the monks on this > occasion, and he spoke the following words: > #80814 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hello Andrew, This is a quick one. I want to clarify an issue you have raised. When I read that paragraph now, I understand why it is not clear. " Andrew: I'm not sure I have grasped the last sentence. Samaadi.t.thi is "right view", is it not? What is the point you are making (or about to make below) concerning right view?" A view in English has many meanings. One is a visual impression of something; another is an opinion. The first meaning is exemplified by: "You can have a nice view of the waterfall from that hill." The second by: "My view (opinion) is that democracy is a failure in developing countries." The difference is that the first is capable of verification and can be turned into knowledge. But the second cannot be verified nor can it be established beyond doubt. Hence not knowledge. Now the difference between sammaadi.t.thi and di.t.thi (really micchaadi.t.thi) is this differnce. One is capable of verification and the other is not. So if you think the second statement--"My view ..." is true that is a belief. But the first you will verify and then know that it is true. Of course it is possible to believe that the first "You can ..." Then you don't have knowledge, but a belief. This (verification) is what you do in courts of law to establish the fact. You always look for eye-witnesses; you don't accept hearsay evidence. I am sure you know more about these things much better than me. Now the word that gets translated as right view is sammaadi.t.thi. Sammaadi.t.thi is always based on direct experience and is knowledge. That is why you need to keep on developing sammaadi.t.thi and perfect it. That is also the reason why it is described in many places of the canon as "knowledge of the four Ariyan truths." You get complete knowledge of the four Ariyan truths only when you become an arahant. Since sammaadi.t.thi is the beginning of the path, and sammaadi.t.thi is the knowledge of the four noble truths, then one knows the Four Ariyan Truths at the beginning leading to a contradiction. Now we get involved in philosophy. The idea that knowledge is justified true belief originated with Plato. You can read about this in Wikipedia--by doing a Google search with "Justified True Belief." The word verification is used more than justification both in science and Buddhist studies. The use of verification by observation and experiment is very clear in science. It is not applicable to any religion except the teaching of the Buddha. But there is is a great difference between the "verification" in Dhamma and verification in science. In science, you assume a theory and then you try to verify experimenting. But in the Dhamma, you search for the truth and knowledge which gives a human being peace and happiness. One has to travel the path by oneself, step by step. Let me explain what I mean by this. Here we are talking about human experiences; you never know what a particular experience is unless you experience. I can't explain to you the taste of a mango unless you have tasted a mango. I can tell you that it doesn't taste like an apple or an orange, but it is very tasty. The maximum I can do is to create an appetite in you for a mango. Now when you experience something it becomes knowledge. It is a total waste of time to talk about "anatta" "nibbana" or even "sotaapanna." How the Bodhisatta searched for the Truth is in MN 26. I have a copy of that, I'll send you an e-m on that in a couple of days. By the way, in which country you are? I am a Sri Lankan. Here is a little experiment for you to try. I assume that you were not born a Buddhist. Well think carefully about how you became a Buddhist. Or what were the reasons behind it. Bye for now DC #80815 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:15 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! buddhistmedi... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > > Hi, Tep (and Jon) - > ... > Did you check yesterday's market results? :-( > > With metta, > Howard > > T: Yes, they were awful. But there are four more sessions to hope for before the week is over, unless recession is already here. :-( Tep === #80816 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) nilovg Hi Howard and Larry, Op 5-jan-2008, om 16:01 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "Now the meditation subject begins to appear to him as consisting > of two > functionally distinguishable parts--mind and matter--rather than as a > single unit. This purification gains its name because it marks the > initial breakaway from all speculative views headed by personality > view." > > ==================================== > What sort of meditation subject is involved here? ------- N: He refers to the first stage of tender insight: distinguishing nama and rupa. He seems to use a certain method: This made me think of India 6 I just posted. Here Kh Sujin explained that we should not think beforehand: I must know the difference between nama and rupa. What she said was: when nama such as seeing appears and there is awareness of it, one becomes familiar with that characteristic. Pa~n~naa will know anyway the charactreisti8c of naama and will not confuse it with ruupa. No worry about: how shall I know it as different from rupa. Pa~n~naa will perform its function of understanding. It seems we always underestimate the workings of pa~n~naa. The truth realized by pa~n~naa is not different from this moment. I said in Chiengmai that lobha, attachment to sati may arise and that I may not know it. Kh Sujin said that when lobha arises and sati is not aware of it, I should not worry. It depends on sati of which object it is aware. It can be aware of lobha later on. This is another example that we have in our mind that this or that should be known. It makes it all cramped and forced. She said that the development of understanding should be sabaaj, which is Thai for: at ease. The moments of awareness are not long, she said, there is just a beginning of understanding. I prefer her approach. I think that the author quoted above makes things very complicated. It is not sabaaj. Nina. #80817 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 1, no 3. nilovg Hi Tep, Op 5-jan-2008, om 20:07 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > I think Lodewijk gave an excellent answer to "Why do governments and > people never seem to learn from history and continue to make the same > mistakes?", but his speech does not fully address the problem > solution. Implementing the four elements and "living in accordance > with these elements" are the solution, I believe. But how would you > convince these "governments and people" to change their lifestyles > and earnestly begin to live in accordance with these elements as soon > as possible for the sake of innocent people? What would motivate them > to change? > > I bet you that at least 99% of the government officials do not even > have untorn, unbroken Five Precepts to begin with. -------- N: We do not know other people's accumulations. Some may have little dust in their eyes and by conditions come into contact with the Dhamma. Lodewijk may have some ideas, I shall send this post to him. Nina. #80818 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! nilovg Hi Howard and Tep, And this is daily life for us lay people. You correspondence is a good reminder that so many cittas are involved when checking the market or listening to the pre-elections of the candidates for president. What I like to notice is that Kh Sujin when she has a chance watches TV. Just daily life. We do not need to read Dhamma books all day. But nama and rupa are never lacking. However, we easily forget this, I do. Nina. Op 5-jan-2008, om 20:15 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > Did you check yesterday's market results? :-( > > > > With metta, > > Howard > > T: Yes, they were awful. But there are four more sessions to hope for > before the week is over, unless recession is already here. :-( > > Tep #80819 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nilovg Dear Connie, thank you. Op 5-jan-2008, om 13:07 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > That was the cause, that was the reason, that was the origin, that > indeed was my acceptance* of the teaching. *Khantii. This meaning is not in PED. See MLDB. Ven. Bodhi gave a footnote about this meaning of khanti in his translation of the Cariyapitaka, in his book of the transl. the Brahmajaala sutta. Even if one has not realized the truth one can still accept it. P. 258: dhammanijjhaanakhanti, and p. 283: anulomiyam khantiyam .thito, acquiescence in conformity. ------ Nina. #80820 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 7:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/5/2008 2:20:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and Larry, Op 5-jan-2008, om 16:01 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > "Now the meditation subject begins to appear to him as consisting > of two > functionally distinguishable parts--mind and matter--rather than as a > single unit. This purification gains its name because it marks the > initial breakaway from all speculative views headed by personality > view." > > ==================================== > What sort of meditation subject is involved here? ------- N: He refers to the first stage of tender insight: distinguishing nama and rupa. He seems to use a certain method: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, of course it is clear that he is discussing distinguishing nama from rupa, and, certainly they are distinguishable both while meditating and when not meditating. But he speaks of mind and matter as two aspects of "the meditation subject". My point pertained to "the meditation subject". In truly Buddhist meditation, there is not a single subject. And, in any case, even if there were but a single "meditation subject," at any moment during meditation, what is examined is either rupa or nama (whether dhamma or concept), but impossibly part one and part the other. We may speak of a table or tree or house as rupa, but that is not so. It is strictly nama, being concept. And while there is the concept of hardness, an actual instance of hardness is all rupa and no nama. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This made me think of India 6 I just posted. Here Kh Sujin explained that we should not think beforehand: I must know the difference between nama and rupa. What she said was: when nama such as seeing appears and there is awareness of it, one becomes familiar with that characteristic. Pa~n~naa will know anyway the charactreisti8c of naama and will not confuse it with ruupa. No worry about: how shall I know it as different from rupa. Pa~n~naa will perform its function of understanding. It seems we always underestimate the workings of pa~n~naa. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: But, Nina, that doesn't relate to what I was discussing. Contrary to what Ven ~Nanarama seems to have been saying, there is no object of consciousness that is part matter and part mind. What seems be partly one and partly another is concept only, and hence purely mental, and not at all rupa. The world of conventional physical objects is a world of mind, and not matter. -------------------------------------------------------------------- The truth realized by pa~n~naa is not different from this moment. I said in Chiengmai that lobha, attachment to sati may arise and that I may not know it. Kh Sujin said that when lobha arises and sati is not aware of it, I should not worry. It depends on sati of which object it is aware. It can be aware of lobha later on. This is another example that we have in our mind that this or that should be known. It makes it all cramped and forced. She said that the development of understanding should be sabaaj, which is Thai for: at ease. The moments of awareness are not long, she said, there is just a beginning of understanding. I prefer her approach. I think that the author quoted above makes things very complicated. It is not sabaaj. Nina. ================================== With metta, Howard #80821 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 12:07 pm Subject: Tibetan Dough Ball Devination? In a Theravadan Forum? ksheri3 Good Day Tep, What is this then; what are you saying or suggesting here? That "the market" and "market values" are determining "things" as if Astrology was the name of the game in our technoligcally advanced society? Are you suggesting that Joyce Jillson is an icon upon which we are to place our faith, beliefs, our lives, in and that we are to actually believe that we will be treated fairly and with compassion if we do have the blatant "Lack of a Brain" to place ourselves in the hands of people such as Joyce Jillson, "astrologer to the Stars"? I enjoy watching the emotional qualities exhibited through transposing human characteristics upon "the machine" (see Pink Floyd, or/and Led Zepplin "In Through The Out Door") and that the market can be a wonderful INDICATOR of certain conditions, HOWEVER, I wouldn't go up to a roulette wheel and place all my money on a single number without some form of insurance on losing my bet, wager, gamble, guess, hope, etc. It is VERY TEDIOUS and time consuming to follow market fluctuations WITHOUT acquiring MANY MANY DETRIMENTAL PSYCHOLOGICAL AND EMOITIONAL CHARACTERISTICS. We could say that a "fixation" like that CERTAINLY in WRONG VIEW AND WRONG PRACTICE ETC. Tep, Howard asked if you viewed the economic conditions that had previously existed, a Past Dhamma or Past Dharma, and you replied that you did witness them and that you had an emotion concerning them which you spoke of as being "awful" AND YOU SUBSCRIBED TO ONE OF THOSE "OLD WIVES TALES" THAT STATES: The first week of the new year dictates what the market will do and how the living conditions will exist. THAT, my friend, is without question, belief in astrology or Devination. I was pretty good at reading tarot cards back in the early 80s, as a matter of fact, when I hitch-hiked for the my second time crossing the USA, back to L.A. I ended up getting lodging in a Baptist shelter, mission, which was in the High Desert of L.A.; after a few days of being accepted into the "monestary" sortofspeak, they searched all my things where they found my first deck of tarot cards and promptly asked me to leave the mission. Devination, however, is wildly practiced throughout the world and it is practiced in the lower classes of society by shamans that have experience handed down orally and sometimes in written form, throughout history, as our Jewish and Greek friends would shout "TRADITION". We, in our buddhist consciousness would classify, categorize, it as being a "Lineage" thing. Thus the "assembly line" of a manufacturing facility which has an ending of the assembly line which is called the OUT DOOR and inspections take place on products that arrive at the our door so that they can be placed into packaging and on a shelf, FOR SALE to customers. It's kindof like taking a "basket" of 500 mortgages that are VERY SIMILAR in price and value and putting them in a single basket or label then selling the single product on the market, which, in our case today, happens to be heavily worked by the Chinese since they have the disposable income, revenue, which can fuel the addiction the Republicans have for manifesting DEATH, or as they Miss Label it, WAR. What brought this type of discussion into play on this site/forum? I haven't even gotten to reading all of Nina's replies that I noticed are waiting for me to enjoy. gots ta go. toodles, colette #80822 From: "colette" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 12:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! ksheri3 Good Day Nina, Group, although Nina and I have had our differences and we have disagreed on things, at times, I believe that her first post in the msg. index after Tep's post about "market conditions" was a very good post with LOTS OF EXCELLENT MATERIAL although she bamboozeled me her continued applications of these Pali words that I take a long time to read, look up, and remember. The concepts of the words are by no means EVER OUT OF CONSCIOUSNESS which is what I was going to reply here to as Nina stated: Just daily life. We do not need to read Dhamma > books all day. But nama and rupa are never lacking. However, we > easily forget this, I do. colette: Now, while this is certainly true that a person can sooooooooo easily forget aspects of the Dhamma or Dharma or the Abhidharma, or... but in my case I've had no ability to get gainful employment, every job application given is ALWAYS rejected and thrown in the cirular file as they consciously manifest their opinion of me as a sentient being, and so have since 1981 CONTINUALLY studied these arcane, occult, esoteric, practices found in theology or religions. One thing that may be of interest here is that YES, nama and rupa are always present and they do have a sort of consciousness about the existance of conditions that surround them but, because of my focus being currently the Mind-only school and it's manifestations, the unconscious or subconscious has built in "Fail SAfes" where it can focus on a single aspect of a single nama or rupa at a time by placing EVERYTHING ELSE into a category such as would be found in RAM where it is not a directly active file on your screen, but is still hiding in RAM, for immediate use. GOTS TA GO. HAPPY NEW YEAR, YEAR OF THE RAT, TO EVERYBODY. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Howard and Tep, > And this is daily life for us lay people. You correspondence is a > good reminder that so many cittas are involved when checking the > market or listening to the pre-elections of the candidates for > president. What I like to notice is that Kh Sujin when she has a > chance watches TV. Just daily life. We do not need to read Dhamma > books all day. But nama and rupa are never lacking. However, we > easily forget this, I do. > Nina. #80823 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 2:50 pm Subject: Re: Tibetan Dough Ball Devination? In a Theravadan Forum? buddhistmedi... Hi Colette, - Thank you for the observations on astrology, stock markets as an indicator of economy (is it due to correlations or the amount of money involved?), and the Buddhist lineage ! >Colette: What brought this type of discussion into play on this site/forum? T: Good question, Colette! But we do not have to discuss only dhammas all day long, do we? The five khandhas can be contemplated in several ways, as Nina in another post suggested: "We do not need to read Dhamma books all day. But nama and rupa are never lacking.". >C: I haven't even gotten to reading all of Nina's replies that I noticed are waiting for me to enjoy. T: Without any question Nina's posts are one of the factors that make this discussion group outstanding. Thanks. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette" wrote: > > Good Day Tep, > > What is this then; what are you saying or suggesting here? That "the > market" and "market values" are determining "things" as if Astrology > was the name of the game in our technoligcally advanced society? #80824 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 3:00 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 1, no 3. buddhistmedi... Hi Nina, - Thank you very much for sending my questions/comments to Lodewijk. > > Tep: > > I bet you that at least 99% of the government officials do not even > > have untorn, unbroken Five Precepts to begin with. > -------- > N: We do not know other people's accumulations. Some may have little > dust in their eyes and by conditions come into contact with the Dhamma. > Lodewijk may have some ideas, I shall send this post to him. T: You are very kind with positive thinking towards government officials in Thailand. Maybe those with "little dust in their eyes" exist somewhere, but I have not yet met them. Tep === #80825 From: "Andrew" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 5:25 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. corvus121 Hello DC Thank you for the clarification: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, DC Wijeratna wrote: Now the word that gets translated as right view is sammaadi.t.thi. Sammaadi.t.thi is always based on direct experience and is knowledge. That is why you need to keep on developing sammaadi.t.thi and perfect it. That is also the reason why it is described in many places of the canon as "knowledge of the four Ariyan truths." You get complete knowledge of the four Ariyan truths only when you become an arahant. Since sammaadi.t.thi is the beginning of the path, and sammaadi.t.thi is the knowledge of the four noble truths, then one knows the Four Ariyan Truths at the beginning leading to a contradiction. Andrew: Yes, this is a contradiction. On the one hand, it is a waste of time to think about the Ariyan's sammaadi.t.thi because it is way beyond our knowledge; but on the other hand, we have an imperfect knowledge of sammaadi.t.thi which we need to develop. Do we perfect sammaadi.t.thi without reference to a developing concept of perfect sammaadi.t.thi? By the way, I do have a copy of MN 26. I have also found the other sutta you referred to: "Setting in motion the wheel of the Dhamma" at SN 56.11. I have Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation and there are several on Access to Insight including Peter Harvey's: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitika/sn/sn56/sn56.011.harv.html DC: By the way, in which country you are? I am a Sri Lankan. Here is a little experiment for you to try. I assume that you were not born a Buddhist. Well think carefully about how you became a Buddhist. Or what were the reasons behind it. Andrew: I am in Australia. I am not sure I am aware of all the reasons why I "became a Buddhist". I was raised as a Christian. Over time, my religion just became a matter of sraadha and being told what to do by people whose siila was no better than mine and yet who claimed spiritual authority over me. They also discouraged me from questioning and investigating: "Happy is he who has not seen and yet who still believes". I did not feel that this was the truth and so I began looking elsewhere ... which led me to a Tibetan Buddhist Centre in my home town. Bye for now Andrew #80826 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 6:01 pm Subject: Re: Swimming analogy buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi James (and Howard) > > > From: "buddhatrue" > > Date: 2008/01/05 Sat AM 11:48:40 HKT > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy > > > > Hi Sarah and Howard, > > > ... > > I find this discussion really funny! To use an > > analogy, it reminds me of swimming. > > I don't think the "swimming" analogy is a helpful one. James: Really. I think it is spot on! :-) Swimming is an activity, one that can be easily explained to and understood by all. So anyone can have a go and do a passable job of it. James: Really, you think so? Do you know how many books are written about swimming? Do you know how many techniques there are to swimming? Do you know how much practice it takes to become a competent swimmer? Do you know how many people in the world don't know how to swim? You see, swimming can be as complicated or as easy as you make it out to be. I thought of this analogy when I read the posts by Ven. P. Ven. P. revealed what really happens at these Bangkok discussions so I think the swimming analogy fits. If anyone asks a question about how to apply the Abhidhamma or Dhamma in daily life, the discussion is immediately derailed by someone asking for clarification of a certain Pali term. Then the discussion quickly descends into a Buddhist librarian convention, rather than a meeting of Buddhist practitioners. I know that you, Jon, and Sarah have written a flurry of posts to argue Ven. P's posts, but I know that he is spot on! Why? Because I see the same darn thing happen here in DSG everyday! Sometimes the intrusions are polite (Sarah, Jon, Nina) and sometimes the intrusions are nasty (Ken H. and Scott), but they are still intrusions which effectively derail any discussion about real practice. If these intrusions are conscious or subconscious I can't say, but I can say that I observe them. Metta, James #80827 From: Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration jonoabb Hi James I've just been catching up on back posts, having got a bit behind due to my travels. I thought you made some good points in this message. > From: "buddhatrue" > Date: 2008/01/04 Fri PM 02:53:51 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration > > Hi Howard, Nina, and All, > ... > This post of confession/apology makes me think of Nina's recent post > to me. She asked me to give some examples of being aware of kusala > and akusala moments in daily life. I wish to focus a bit on your > example to demonstrate how it is for most of us. Moments of akusala > cittas occur so rapidly that most of us are not really aware of them > until they are already over. We find ourselves getting angry, being > conceited/selfish, lusting after someone, etc. and it occurs so > quickly that it seems as if we are powerless to stop it. Yes. And of course we are indeed powerless to stop anything that has arisen/occurred already ;-)) > If we have > wisdom of the Buddha's teaching, then we feel regret after such > transgressions and make an effort to not allow them to occur again. Yes, although I prefer the terminology you use below ("if one makes a mistake, it is best to *admit it and not dwell on it*"), since "regret" has a negative connotation and suggests and akusala mind-state. > The sangha also has a ceremony every month where the monks admit their > transgressions, asks the sangha for forgiveness, and pledge to try > hard for it not to happen again. > > However, another important feature of the Buddha's teaching in this > regard is encouraging kusala states to arise more often and to > continue kusala states which have already arisen. This can be done > with meditation on the Brahma-viharas and meditation on virtue. It is sometimes overlooked that the encouraging of kusala mind-states is something that can occur in normal daily life. If kusala arises (as it may do spontaneously), it can be recognised as such. Appreciating the immense value of even weak moments of kusala is itself kusala, and leads to its further development. > As > Buddhists we can't always be beating ourselves up over our mistakes, > we also have to feel happiness and appreciation for our successes. If > one keeps the five precepts, that is a reason to feel happiness. Even > if one only keeps four precepts, or three precepts, or two precepts, > or one precept- at least that person should feel happiness for the > virtue that they are able to maintain. If you focus on kusala mind > states, then the kusala will grow and multiply. Yes, and all of the above may occur in the course of the day. > If you are always > focused on akusala mind states, and feeling regret and powerlessness, > then akusala will also grow. Right. This tends to happen if one has the idea that akusala mind-states that have arisen already are somehow an obstacle to the development of insight, or if there is concern at that time about how one is perceived by others, etc. > So, if one makes a mistake, it is best > to admit it and not dwell on it. However, if one does something > right, it is best to consider it everyday and feel happiness for it! Yes. Appreciation of kusala, whether in oneself or in others, is itself kusala. Thanks for the good points. Jon #80828 From: Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 6:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy jonoabb Hi James > From: "buddhatrue" > Date: 2008/01/06 Sun AM 10:01:46 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy > > Hi Jon, > ... > > I don't think the "swimming" analogy is a helpful one. > > James: Really. I think it is spot on! :-) > > Swimming is an activity, one that can be easily explained to and > understood by all. So anyone can have a go and do a passable job of > it. > > James: Really, you think so? Do you know how many books are written > about swimming? Do you know how many techniques there are to > swimming? Do you know how much practice it takes to become a > competent swimmer? Do you know how many people in the world don't > know how to swim? You see, swimming can be as complicated or as > easy as you make it out to be. Yes, I take your point. But there is still the essential difference that the development of understanding is all about the development (or growth) of a mental factor (the mental factor of understanding), rather than about the undertaking of any kind of activity. Mental factors arise by virtue of a complex set of conditions, and in the case of the kusala mental factors the most important of these is the level to which that mental factor had been accumulated prior to our birth in this present lifetime. This means that the development of kusala cannot be a matter of following a particular set of instructions, or of practising/trying to see things in a certain way. Jon #80829 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 3:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy upasaka_howard Hi, Jon (and James) - In a message dated 1/5/2008 9:29:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi James > From: "buddhatrue" > Date: 2008/01/06 Sun AM 10:01:46 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy > > Hi Jon, > ... > > I don't think the "swimming" analogy is a helpful one. > > James: Really. I think it is spot on! :-) > > Swimming is an activity, one that can be easily explained to and > understood by all. So anyone can have a go and do a passable job of > it. > > James: Really, you think so? Do you know how many books are written > about swimming? Do you know how many techniques there are to > swimming? Do you know how much practice it takes to become a > competent swimmer? Do you know how many people in the world don't > know how to swim? You see, swimming can be as complicated or as > easy as you make it out to be. Yes, I take your point. But there is still the essential difference that the development of understanding is all about the development (or growth) of a mental factor (the mental factor of understanding), rather than about the undertaking of any kind of activity. Mental factors arise by virtue of a complex set of conditions, and in the case of the kusala mental factors the most important of these is the level to which that mental factor had been accumulated prior to our birth in this present lifetime. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: And how did that factor come to be accumulated in previous lifetimes? The answer would be the same, I suppose. And that provides a bottomless, infinite recursion, Jon. What are the other factors that are the basis? It is the other factors that are crucial. Also, it is not only wisdom that is cultivated by meditation, but also a mind that is calm and collected. All the path factors, many also jhana factors as well, require cultivation. To say that they come about by accumulation of those very same factors, and so on, and so on ... is to say nothing! The cultivation of these factors does depend on mental activities - on intentional practices as outlined again, and again, and again by the Buddha. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This means that the development of kusala cannot be a matter of following a particular set of instructions, or of practising/trying to see things in a certain way. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That's just not true. Cultivation of specific factors requires specific activities to occur. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jon =============================== With metta, Howard P. S. There is a possibility that I will be unable to write much for a while. There are some important problems we have to attend to. #80831 From: Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 9:23 pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy jonoabb Hi Howard > From: upasaka@... > Date: 2008/01/06 Sun PM 12:07:57 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy > > Hi, Jon (and James) - > > In a message dated 1/5/2008 9:29:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > jonabbott@... writes: > > Hi James > > > From: "buddhatrue" > > Date: 2008/01/06 Sun AM 10:01:46 HKT > > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy > > > > Hi Jon, ... > P. S. There is a possibility that I will be unable to write much for a > while. There are some important problems we have to attend to. Very sorry to hear this. I hope your problems are soon resolved. Please don't feel obliged to respond to any further comments I may make in our thread(s). Jon #80832 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 9:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > Hi James > > I've just been catching up on back posts, having got a bit behind due to my travels. I thought you made some good points in this message. > Good to have you back from your travels. Hope you can relax for a while and enjoy Sarah's wonderful company! :-) I am glad that you appreciated this post. I know that you disagree with the purposeful cultivation of kusala, since it disagrees with your conception of anatta, but realize that I don't disagree with your emphasis on kusala during daily life. Meditation in isolation from daily living would be silly and strange. I also agree with the cultivation of kusala during daily life- I just believe that meditation can augment that daily cultivation. Anyway, thanks again for your kind words! Metta, James #80833 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 9:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy buddhatrue Hi Jon, I just want to focus on one comment you make in this post (as Sebastian is getting on to me to clean the kitty litter. LOL) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > Mental factors arise by virtue of a complex set of conditions, and in the case of the kusala mental factors the most important of these is the level to which that mental factor had been accumulated prior to our birth in this present lifetime. > The only thing the texts have to state about prior accumulations is in regards to difficulty. Those who have prior accumulations find practice of the Buddha's path very easy to do. Those who don't have such accumulations find the Buddha's path difficult to do. However, the texts still describe the same practices (virtue and meditation) for both types of people. And, most importantly, the texts state that both types can reach the goal of nibbana in one lifetime. Metta, James ps. Sorry, can't give any text references because my husband (wife) is getting on my case. ;-)) #80834 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 9:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) lbidd2 Hi Howard, Howard: "an actual instance of hardness is all rupa and no nama." Larry: I understood him to be saying an instance of hardness is also a consciousness of hardness. Larry #80835 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 11:30 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Ken H., Thank you for you post. You are really a handful with your comments! ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi James, > > -------- > J: > I find this discussion really funny! To use an analogy, it > reminds me of swimming. Howard is saying that one must swim! Sarah is > saying that she isn't going to swim > -------- > > You haven't been listening. Sarah has always said there was no > control over ultimate reality. She has never claimed to be able to > prevent satipatthana from occurring. James: Hello, ding dong. I was writing about samadhi, not satipatthana. ;-)) > > --------------------- > J: > until she knows everything involved in swimming, can read all > about swimming in a book, can have discussions about swimming with > fellow people, etc. because she is afraid of drowning. And that is > what it comes down to: Sarah is afraid and Howard isn't afraid. But, > as Howard keeps telling Sarah, DON'T BE AFRAID AND JUST JUMP IN!! > ---------------------- > > In my opinion Sarah practises the Buddha's teaching more than any of > us. This is because she understands it. James: Oh really? Well, I think my cat knows the Dhamma more than Sarah! Actually, I think the fleas on my cat know the Dhamma more than Sarah! No, wait, I think the parasites on the fleas on my cat know the Dhamma more than Sarah!!!! What do you think about that??? LOL! (Make a silly comment, expect a silly reply). Right understanding and right > practice are one and the same. > > ------------------ > J: > That would be impossible for Sarah right now because she is too > afraid. > ------------------- > > Facing up to anatta and no-control the way Sarah does requires pure > courage. Formal meditation, by comparison, is like clinging Mummy's > apron strings. James: Oh baloney. What courage does it take to talk and talk and talk about the Dhamma until everyone is just about sick of listening? The real courage is to be by yourself, without anyone listening, and to face your inner demons, to face the onsloght of Mara, and to know that maybe no one else could possibly understand what you go through. Ken H. could you be that utterly alone? Could you? Metta, James > > Ken H > #80836 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 2:08 am Subject: On Flies & Fleas (was:]Anatta as a strategy) sarahprocter... Hi James & all, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Oh really? Well, I think my cat knows the Dhamma more than > Sarah! Actually, I think the fleas on my cat know the Dhamma more > than Sarah! No, wait, I think the parasites on the fleas on my cat > know the Dhamma more than Sarah!!!! What do you think about that??? > LOL! ... S: LOL! (Could have been worse:-) ... > James: <...> The real courage is to be by yourself, without anyone > listening, and to face your inner demons, to face the onsloght of > Mara, and to know that maybe no one else could possibly understand > what you go through. Ken H. could you be that utterly alone? Could > you? .... S: From RK Wijayaratne's recent message, #80647: "Greed, monk, is putrefaction. Ill will is the stench of carrion. Evil, unskillful thoughts are flies. On one who lets himself putrefy & stink with the stench of carrion, there's no way that flies won't swarm & attack. "On one whose eyes & ears are unguarded, whose senses are unrestrained, flies swarm: resolves dependent on passion. The monk who is putrid, who stinks of the stench of carrion, is far from Unbinding. His share is vexation. Whether he stays in village or wilderness, having gained for himself no tranquillity, he's surrounded by flies. But those who are consummate in virtue, who delight in discernment & calm, pacified, they sleep in ease. No flies settle on them." Notes ... 2. This sutta can be found in full here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.126.than.html .... S: Yes, James, whether in villarge or wilderness, with or without friends, talking or silent, we're all alone with the flies and fleas. No escape but through the development of satipatthana and overcoming of passion. The same demons for all to understand! Metta to you and your kitty! Sarah ======== #80837 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 4:46 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy kenhowardau Hi James, ------------- J: > Thank you for you post. You are really a handful with your comments! ;-)) ------------- I have a reputation to maintain. :-) --------------------- <. . .> KH: > > Sarah has always said there was no > control over ultimate reality. She has never claimed to be able to > prevent satipatthana from occurring. James: Hello, ding dong. I was writing about samadhi, not satipatthana. ;-)) ---------------------- OK, make that "Sarah has never claimed to be able to prevent samadhi from occurring." ------------- <. . . > KH: > > In my opinion Sarah practises the Buddha's teaching more than any of us. This is because she understands it. > > James: Oh really? Well, I think my cat knows the Dhamma more than Sarah! Actually, I think the fleas on my cat know the Dhamma more than Sarah! No, wait, I think the parasites on the fleas on my cat know the Dhamma more than Sarah!!!! What do you think about that??? LOL! (Make a silly comment, expect a silly reply). ------------- Ease up on the bluff-and-bluster and explain what was so silly about my comment. -------------------------- <. . .> J: > What courage does it take to talk and talk and talk about the Dhamma until everyone is just about sick of listening? ---------------------------- The only people who are sick of listening are those who were never interested in listening in the first place. But why are you changing the subject? I was talking about Sarah's willingness to face up to anatta and no-control. Why have you introduced this fallacy about "talking and talking?" ---------------------------------------- J: > The real courage is to be by yourself, without anyone listening, and to face your inner demons, to face the onsloght of Mara, and to know that maybe no one else could possibly understand what you go through. ---------------------------------------- I have always agreed that amazing experiences are possible through meditation. Mostly, meditation is an exercise in utter boredom, but occasionally there will be something memorable. These experiences occur irrespective of whatever religion or philosophy the meditator might subscribe to. In the end they are all meaningless. ------------------ J: > Ken H, could you be that utterly alone? Could you? ------------------- Been there, done that. James, it is time you learned about conditioned dhammas. None of them is you or yours - none of them pertains to you in any way. And yet they are the only things that really exist. How does that make you feel? Ken H #80838 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 5:58 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn dear friends, Part 4 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa Arahatta.m pana patvaa attano pa.tipatti.m paccavekkhitvaa udaanavasena- 450. "Mantaavatiyaa nagare, ra~n~no ko~ncassa aggamahesiyaa; dhiitaa aasi.m sumedhaa, pasaaditaa saasanakarehi. 451. "Siilavatii cittakathaa, bahussutaa buddhasaasane vinitaa; maataapitaro upagamma, bha.nati ubhayo nisaametha. 452. "Nibbaanaabhirataaha.m asassata.m bhavagata.m yadipi dibba.m; kima"nga.m pana tucchaa kaamaa, appassaadaa bahuvighaataa. 453. "Kaamaa ka.tukaa aasii, visuupamaa yesu mucchitaa baalaa; te diigharatta.m niraye, samappitaa ha~n~nante dukkhitaa. 454. "Socanti paapakammaa, vinipaate paapavaddhino sadaa; kaayena ca vaacaaya ca, manasaa ca asa.mvutaa baalaa. And after attaining Arahatship and looking over her attainment, she spoke these verses as a solemn utterance: 448. In the city of Mantaavatii there was Sumedhaa, a daughter of King Ko~nca's chief queen. [She was] led to have faith by those who compy with the teaching. 449. Virtuous, a brilliant speaker, having great learning, trained in the Buddha's teaching, going up to her mother and father, she said, "Listen both of you." 450. "I delight in quenching. Existence is non-eternal, even if it is as a deity. How much [non-eternal] are empty sensual pleasures giving little enjoyment [and] much distress. 451. "Sensual pleasures, in which fools are bemused, [are] bitter, like a snake's poison. Consigned to hell for a long time, those [fools] are beaten, poisoned. 452. "Because of evil action, they grieve in a nether realm, increasing evil, without faith. Fools [are] unrestrained in body and speech and mind. RD: And reflecting on her victory, she broke forth in exultation: King Heron's daughter at Mantaavatii, Born of his chief consort, was Sumedhaa, Devoted to the makers of the Law. *413 (448) A virtuous maid was she and eloquent, Learne'd and in the system of our Lord Well trained. She of her parents audience sought, And spake: 'Now listen, mother, father, both! (449) All my heart's love is to Nibbana given. Transient is everything that doth become, E'en if it have the nature of a god. What truck have I, then, with the empty life Of sense, that giveth little, slayeth much? (450) Bitter as serpents' poison are desires Of sense, whereafter youthful fools do yearn. For that full many a night in wretchedness They drag out tortured lives in realms of woe. *414 (451) The vicious-minded, vicious doers mourn In purgatorial lives. Ever are fools Without restraint in deed and word and thought. (452) *413 Saasanakaaraa =, according to the Commentary, Ariyans - i.e., Arahants, including the Buddhas. Just below, saasana is rendered by 'system.' Sumedhaa = very wise. *414 See note, verse 436. .. to be continued, connie #80839 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 6:26 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 2, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 2 The Latent Tendencies. Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to life. Wholesome qualities, such as generosity and loving kindness are accumulated and can therefore condition the arising again of kusala citta with generosity and loving kindness. Unwholesome qualities are also accumulated and can therefore condition the arising again of akusala citta. The latent tendencies, anusayas, are unwholesome inclinations that are accumulated and these are classified as a group of seven defilements. They condition the arising of many kinds of akusala cittas. They are the following: sense-desire (kåma-råga), aversion (patigha), conceit (måna), wrong view (ditthi), doubt (vicikicchå), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaråga), and ignorance (avijjå). It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies and their strength. They are called subtle defilements because they do not arise together with akusala citta, but they condition the arising of akusala citta. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting the body. So long as they have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence our behaviour, they are powerful. We are like sick people, because the latent tendencies can condition the arising of akusala citta at any time when there are the appropriate conditions. Only by the magga-citta, path-consciousness, arising when enlightenment is attained, the latent tendencies can be fully eradicated. Latent tendencies are accumulated in each citta, from birth to death. They are accumulated even in kusala citta. Accumulated ignorance of realities and clinging are like a black curtain, they prevent us from seeing realities as they are. When we see, it always seems that we see people and things, whereas in reality only visible object can impinge on the eyesense. We are drowning in the ocean of concepts, but when there is awareness and understanding we are on the island of Dhamma, the island of satipatthåna. We read in the Parinibbåna Sutta (Wheel Publication, 67-69) that the Buddha spoke about his old age, and exhorted Ånanda: “Therefore, Ånanda, be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge: with the Teaching as your island, the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge... And how, Ånanda, is a bhikkhu an island unto himself...? When he dwells contemplating body in the body...feeling in the feelings... mind in the mind...mental objects in the mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Teaching as his island and refuge, seeking no other refuge.” ****** Nina. #80840 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 1:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/6/2008 12:23:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: P. S. There is a possibility that I will be unable to write much for a > while. There are some important problems we have to attend to. Very sorry to hear this. I hope your problems are soon resolved. Please don't feel obliged to respond to any further comments I may make in our thread(s). Jon =============================== Thanks! I expect things will be fine, but I'll play it by ear. I also sent you an off-list response with a bit more detail. With metta, Howard #80841 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) nilovg Hi Howard, Op 5-jan-2008, om 21:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Pa~n~naa will know anyway the charactreisti8c of > naama and will not confuse it with ruupa. No worry about: how shall I > know it as different from rupa. Pa~n~naa will perform its function of > understanding. It seems we always underestimate the workings of > pa~n~naa. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But, Nina, that doesn't relate to what I was discussing. Contrary to > what Ven ~Nanarama seems to have been saying, there is no object of > consciousness that is part matter and part mind. ------- N: I just want to discuss his approach, not the details of his book. When I saw that he stressed concentration and underestimated understanding, I was not interested in all the details. After two lines I was already bored. He calls the object of insight the meditation subject. By the way, you and I have different ideas about concept. You write: I want to distinguish concept from nama and rupa. When thinking of a tree, the tree is not nama nor rupa, and the thinking is nama. The object of thinking, tree, is a concept. When hardness is the object of citta, it is rupa, not a concept. Nina. #80842 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 2:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) upasaka_howard Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/6/2008 12:50:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@... writes: Hi Howard, Howard: "an actual instance of hardness is all rupa and no nama." Larry: I understood him to be saying an instance of hardness is also a consciousness of hardness. Larry ================================== Oh, maybe that is what he means. But that's really not so. They co-occur inseparably, being mutually dependent (like the two sheaves), but they aren't the same, nor are they "mixed together" in some way. And, as far as the Dhamma is concerned, and so far as I can personally tell, the knowing of an object is not itself known when the object is known - "the eye doesn't see itself except by a mirror". There's only one object at any time. It is also false to say that the hardness and the consciousness of it are two of three "components" of an instance of contact, because the contact is not a three-part aggregation, but instead a specfic phenomenon of its own: the "coming together" (or co-occurring) of the three. It is a cetasika, not a compound. In a moment of contact, there are 4 intimately interrelated, but distinct, phenomena involved: the contact (or coming together) itself, and the three phenomena of sense object, sense consciousness, and sense door that arise together. With metta, Howard #80843 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 7:25 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Nina, All, Sisters: That was the cause, that was the reason, that was the origin, that indeed was my acceptance* of the teaching. *Khantii. This meaning is not in PED. See MLDB. Nina: Ven. Bodhi gave a footnote about this meaning of khanti in his translation of the Cariyapitaka, in his book of the transl. the Brahmajaala sutta. Even if one has not realized the truth one can still accept it. P. 258: dhammanijjhaanakhanti, and p. 283: anulomiyam khantiyam .thito, acquiescence in conformity. Connie: Thank you. Different pages in my copy. p.247: <... restless due to excessive activity is abandoned through reflective acquiescence in the Dhamma (dhammanijjhaanakkhanti)> note: p.271: <"When there is patience, the mind becomes concentrated, all formations appear to reflection as impermanent and suffering, all dhammas as not-self, nibbaana as unconditioned, deathless, peaceful, and sublime, and the Buddha-qualities as endowed with inconceivable and immeasurable potency. Then, established in acquiescence in conformity, the groundlessness of all 'I-making' and 'mine-making' becomes evident to reflection thus: 'Mere dhammas alone exist, devoid of self or of anything pertaining to a self. They arise and pass away in accordance with their conditions. They do not come from anywhere, they do not go anywhere, they are not established anywhere. There is no agency in anything whatsoever.' In this way a bodhisattva becomes fixed is his destiny, bound for enlightenment, irreversible."> c: Here the note basically repeats and refers back to the earlier one, but what a great example of "propositions baffling or even scandalous": There Is No Person! best wishes, connie #80844 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 2:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/6/2008 9:42:20 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 5-jan-2008, om 21:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Pa~n~naa will know anyway the charactreisti8c of > naama and will not confuse it with ruupa. No worry about: how shall I > know it as different from rupa. Pa~n~naa will perform its function of > understanding. It seems we always underestimate the workings of > pa~n~naa. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But, Nina, that doesn't relate to what I was discussing. Contrary to > what Ven ~Nanarama seems to have been saying, there is no object of > consciousness that is part matter and part mind. ------- N: I just want to discuss his approach, not the details of his book. When I saw that he stressed concentration and underestimated understanding, I was not interested in all the details. After two lines I was already bored. He calls the object of insight the meditation subject. By the way, you and I have different ideas about concept. You write: ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I follow you, and I don't outright disagree. Concepts are merely thought of, and not actually arising as individual phenomena. OTOH, those concepts that are aggregation concepts, and probably they all are, have a derivative reality based on the reality of the phenomena belonging to the aggregate. Aggregations are not nothing at all. It is true that aggregations are not individual phenomena, and they depend on thought, being collections only in the sense that the collecting has been done mentally. But they are aggregates of interrelated phenomena that function in concert or that have a common quality. I agree that, as "phenomena of their own", aggregations are actually nothing at all, and are thus neither nama not rupa. Yet, if I had to throw them into a "category basket" I would put them into the namic basket. ----------------------------------------------------------- I want to distinguish concept from nama and rupa. When thinking of a tree, the tree is not nama nor rupa, and the thinking is nama. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, I agree. But they are "mental" in the sense that they are imagined/conceived of/projected by mind. ------------------------------------------------------------ The object of thinking, tree, is a concept. When hardness is the object of citta, it is rupa, not a concept. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree. The concept of hardness is actually the concept of an aggregation - an aggregate of similar rupas, whereas any particular felt hardness is a specific, individual, experiential phenomenon - an "instance of hardness". ------------------------------------------------------------ Nina. ============================ With metta, Howard #80845 From: "Larry" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 7:58 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) lbidd2 Hi Howard and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 1/6/2008 12:50:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > LBIDD@... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Howard: "an actual instance of hardness is all rupa and no nama." > > Larry: I understood him to be saying an instance of hardness is also a > consciousness of hardness. > > Larry > ================================== > Oh, maybe that is what he means. But that's really not so. They co-occur > inseparably, being mutually dependent (like the two sheaves), but they > aren't the same, nor are they "mixed together" in some way. And, as far as the > Dhamma is concerned, and so far as I can personally tell, the knowing of an > object is not itself known when the object is known - "the eye doesn't see itself > except by a mirror". There's only one object at any time. > It is also false to say that the hardness and the consciousness of it > are two of three "components" of an instance of contact, because the contact is > not a three-part aggregation, but instead a specific phenomenon of its own: > the "coming together" (or co-occurring) of the three. It is a cetasika, not a > compound. In a moment of contact, there are 4 intimately interrelated, but > distinct, phenomena involved: the contact (or coming together) itself, and the > three phenomena of sense object, sense consciousness, and sense door that > arise together. > Larry: Yes, all that is true but it is a little more than is called for at this stage. At this stage what we are looking for is that one find all 5 khandhas in any given experience. I think this is accomplished with deductive reasoning but because it is insight there is still a powerful element of direct experience. I can fully sympathize with Nina's call for a simpler approach and I agree that simply recognizing one dhamma at a time can be a profound insight. But this approach is more in line with the satipatthana method. In the visuddhimagga one _begins_ insight practice with an intellectual understanding of every dhamma. Larry #80846 From: Dieter Möller Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 9:38 am Subject: Re: Anatta special vs. anicca and dukkha (was, Report ...) moellerdieter Hi Jon , seemingly there are some misunderstandings.. repeating from the previous message: 'D: there is a need to develop one's own understanding , Jon.. the texts are only guidelines from which you are supposed to construct your raft for the other shore') Jon:Hmm. Not sure what you're saying here, Dieter. Do you mean that "one's own understanding" may be developed in a way that is not mentioned or explained in the texts? This would seem to leave the door open to anything at all! D: I think you will agree with me that right understanding/view , i.e.wisdom does not come from the text but has to be developed by contemplation ..M.N. 22 is nice to read in this relation ..e.g. these 2 passages (transl. by T.B.): 'Monks, there is the case where some worthless men study the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. Having studied the Dhamma, they don't ascertain the meaning (or: the purpose) of those Dhammas 5 with their discernment. Not having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they don't come to an agreement through pondering. They study the Dhamma both for attacking others and for defending themselves in debate. They don't reach the goal for which [people] study the Dhamma. Their wrong grasp of those Dhammas will lead to their long-term harm & suffering. Why is that? Because of the wrong-graspedness of the Dhammas.' snip The Blessed One said: "Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. ' you wrote: ' I don't see these 2 passage as being related to the question we are discussing, namely, whether there is a way of developing insight other than the ways that are mentioned or described in the texts.' D : I quoted the passages to show that your supposition 'Do you mean that "one's own understanding" may be developed in a way that is not mentioned or explained in the texts?" is baseless . I talked about the 'guidelines from which you are supposed to construct your raft for the other shore': Above (inversion): 'Monks, there is the case where some worthy men study the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. Having studied the Dhamma, they ascertain the meaning (or: the purpose) of those Dhammas 5 with their discernment. Having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they come to an agreement through pondering So what I meant is the contemplation of the guidelines , constructing a raft and go with one's own effort of hands and feet ... do we get the question we are discussing back on trace now? Jon: Panna has to be developed (but I'm not sure what you mean by "by contemplation"). D: see above Jon: (D: we talking about fully penetrated ...not moments of anatta at kusala consciousness.) There are different levels of realization of anatta and detachment. But whatever level we are talking about, I see the two as being not the same. D: so we disagree here Jon: (D: The fetter of conceit is only abolished at Arahant level.) Yes, but conceit and anatta are two different things entirely. D: I don' t understand what you mean .. conceit and anatta are excluding eachother as atta and anatta ..are you disagreeing that conceit is an underlying part of the self..? Jon: (D: As suffering is described in brief by khanda attachment , detachment means full penetration/realization of ( all dhammas are) anatta, doesn't it? No, I don't think we can reason like that. There is absence ofattachment to the khandhas at every moment of kusala. Perhaps you could give a sutta quote for each of these 2 terms showing them in context. Then it would be easier to discuss D: I selected some suttas from Samyutta Nikaya (transl. J.D.Ireland) see below and hope you may not only enjoy the reading but recognize some misunderstandings.. with Metta Dieter "An uninstructed ordinary person, bhikkhus, might well be dispassionate towards this body, made of the four great elements, might well detach himself and be released from it. For what reason? It is seen how this body grows and decays, is taken up and laid aside. Therefore an uninstructed ordinary person might well be dispassionate toward it, might well detach himself and be released from it. But this, bhikkhus, which is called mind, is called thought, is called consciousness - towards this an uninstructed ordinary person is not able to be dispassionate, is not able to be detached and released. What is the reason? For a long time this has been that with which he identifies himself, to which he has been attached and has held on to, thinking, 'This is mine,' 'I am this,' 'This is myself.' Therefore an uninstructed ordinary person is not able to be dispassionate towards it, to be detached and released from it. "It would be better, bhikkhus, if an uninstructed ordinary person regarded this body, made of the four great elements, as himself rather than the mind. For what reason? This body is seen to continue for a year, for two years, five years, ten years, twenty years, fifty years, a hundred years and even more. But of that which is called mind, is called thought, is called consciousness, one moment arises as another ceases continually both day and night. Just as a monkey wandering in a big forest seizes a branch and letting go of it seizes another: similarly, bhikkhus, of that which is called mind, is called thought, is called consciousness, one moment arises as another ceases continually both day and night. Now as to this, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple gives well reasoned attention to the dependent arising thus: this being, that is; from the arising of this, that arises: this not being, that is not; from the ceasing of this, that ceases. "That is to say, with ignorance as condition, volitional activities come to be; with volitional activities as condition, consciousness comes to be... That is how there is an origin of this whole mass of suffering. But from the complete disappearance and cessation of ignorance, volitional activities cease... That is how there is the ceasing of this whole mass of suffering. "So seeing, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is dispassionate towards body, feeling, perception, mental activities and consciousness.45 Being dispassionate he detaches himself, being detached he is released and in release is the knowledge of being released and he knows: Finished is birth, lived is the holy life, done is what had to be done, there is no more of this or that state. - SN 12.61 Just as a stick thrown up into the air sometimes falls on its butt, sometimes on its side, and sometimes on its tip: similarly, bhikkhus, do beings obstructed by ignorance and fettered by craving migrate and go the round of births. At one time going from this world to another world and at another time coming from another world to this world. What is the reason? "Unimaginable, bhikkhus, is a beginning to the round of births [and deaths]. For beings obstructed by ignorance and fettered by craving migrating and going the round of births a starting point is not evident. Thus for a long time, bhikkhus have you experienced suffering, pain and destruction and the cemeteries have grown. Long enough for you to have become dispassionate towards all conditioned things, long enough for you to have become detached and released from them." - SN 15.9 The body, bhikkhus, is impermanent. That which is the cause, that which is the condition, for the appearing of body, that is also impermanent. How could the body, produced by what is impermanent, ever be permanent? "Feeling is impermanent... Perception... Mental activities... Consciousness is impermanent. That which is the cause, that which is the condition, for the appearing of consciousness, that is also impermanent. How could consciousness, produced by what is impermanent, ever be permanent? "So seeing, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is dispassionate towards the body, dispassionate towards feeling, dispassionate towards perception, dispassionate towards mental activities, dispassionate towards consciousness. Being dispassionate he detaches himself, being detached he is released and in release is the knowledge of being released and he knows: finished is birth, lived is the holy life, done is what had to be done, there is no more of this or that state." - SN 22.18 At one time the Lord was staying near Saavatthii... and said: "What is not yours, bhikkhus, renounce it. Renouncing it will be to your good, to your happiness. And what, bhikkhus, is not yours? The body, bhikkhus, is not yours... Feeling... Perception... Mental activities... Consciousness, bhikkhus, is not yours, renounce it. Renouncing it will be to your good, to your happiness. "It is as if a person were to carry away, burn or do as he pleased with the grass, twigs, branches and foliage in this Jeta Grove. Would it occur to you to say, 'The person is carrying us away, is burning us, is doing as he pleases with us'?" "Certainly not, Sir." "For what reason?" "Because, Lord, this is not ourselves nor what belongs to ourselves." "So also, bhikkhus, the body is not yours, renounce it. Renouncing it will be to your good, to your happiness. Feeling is not yours... Perception is not yours... Mental activities are not yours... Consciousness is not yours, renounce it. Renouncing it will be to your good, to your happiness." - SN 22.33 Now the Venerable Raadha approached the Lord. Having approached and prostrated himself he sat down to one side. As he was sitting there, the venerable Raadha said to the Lord: "How can we know, Sir, how can we see, that in this consciousness-endowed body and externally among all outer objects there is no I-ness, no mine-ness, no underlying tendency to conceit?" "Whatsoever body... feeling... perception... mental activities... consciousness, Raadha, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, is looked upon as, 'This is not mine,' 'I am not this,' 'This is not myself' - in this manner it is seen according to actuality with perfect wisdom. Thus knowing, thus seeing, in this consciousness-endowed body and externally among all outer objects there is no I-ness, no mine-ness, no underlying tendency to conceit." Then the venerable Raadha, living alone, secluded, diligent, ardent and resolute, soon realized here and now, through his own direct knowledge, that unequaled quest of the holy life, for which sons of good family rightly go forth from home to the homeless state, and entering into it abide in it. And he knew: finished is birth, lived is the holy life, done is what had to be done, there is no more of this or that state. And the venerable Raadha became one of the Perfect Ones. - SN 22.71 "Those recluses or braahmanas, bhikkhus, who remember a number of former lives, they all remember one or another of these five aggregates of grasping. 'In the past I had this sort of body': thus remembering, it is just body he remembers. 'In the past I had this sort of feeling': thus remembering, it is just feeling he remembers. 'In the past I had this sort of perception': thus remembering, it is just perception he remembers. 'In the past I had this sort of mental activity': thus remembering, it is just mental activity he remembers. 'In the past I had this sort of consciousness': thus remembering, it is just consciousness he remembers. "And why, bhikkhus, do you say 'body'? 'It is afflicted' (ruppati), bhikkhus, therefore it is called 'body' (ruupa). Afflicted by what? Afflicted by cold and heat, hunger and thirst, afflicted by coming into contact with gnats, mosquitoes, wind, sun and snakes. 'It is afflicted,' bhikkhus, therefore it is called 'body.' "And why, bhikkhus, do you say 'feeling'? 'It is felt' (vediyati), bhikkhus, therefore it is called 'feeling' (vedanaa). What is felt? Pleasure is felt, pain is felt, neutral feeling is felt. 'It is felt,' bhikkhus, therefore it is called 'feeling.' "And why, bhikkhus, do you say 'perception'? 'It is perceived' (sañjaanaatii), bhikkhus, therefore it is called 'perception' (saññaa). What is perceived? Blue is perceived, yellow is perceived, red is perceived, white is perceived. 'It is perceived,' bhikkhus, therefore it is called 'perception.' "And why, bhikkhus, do you say 'mental activities'? They activate that which is formed and conditioned (sa"nkhata.m abhisa"nkharonti), bhikkhus, therefore they are called 'mental activities' (sa"nkhaara).62 What is the formed and conditioned that they activate? They activate body in its corporeal nature, feeling in its nature of feeling, perception in its perceptual nature, mental activities in their activating [directing] nature, consciousness in its cognitive nature. They activate that which is formed and conditioned, bhikkhus, therefore they are called 'mental activities.' "And why, bhikkhus, do you say 'consciousness'? 'It cognizes' (vijaanaati), bhikkhus, therefore it is called 'consciousness' (viññaa.na). What does it cognize? It cognizes sour and bitter, acid and sweet, alkaline and non-alkaline, salty and non-salty. 'It cognizes,' bhikkhus, therefore it is called 'consciousness.' "As to this, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple reflects thus: 'I am being consumed by the body now. Just as in the past I was consumed by the body. And if in the future I should have an expectation of pleasure from the body, so in the future would I be consumed by the body just as I am now in the present.'63 Thus reflecting he has no yearning for a past body, he has no expectation of pleasure from a future body and towards the present body he cultivates dispassion, detachment, cessation. "What do you think, bhikkhus, is the body permanent or impermanent?" "Impermanent, Sir." "What is impermanent, is that dissatisfying or satisfying?" "Dissatisfying, Sir." "What is impermanent, dissatisfying, of a nature to change, is it suitable to regard as, 'This is mine,' 'I am this,' 'This is myself'?" "No, Sir." "Is feeling... perception... mental activities... consciousness permanent or impermanent?" "Impermanent, Sir." "What is impermanent, dissatisfying, of a nature to change, is it suitable to regard as, 'This is mine.' 'I am this,' 'This is myself'?" "No, Sir." "Therefore, bhikkhus, I say, whatsoever body... feeling... perception... mental activities... consciousness, past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, should be looked upon as, 'This is not mine,' 'I am not this,' 'This is not myself.' In this manner it should be seen according to actuality with perfect wisdom." - SN 22.79 #80847 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 11:28 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nilovg Dear Connie and Dieter, Op 6-jan-2008, om 16:25 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > Here the note basically repeats and refers back to the earlier one, > but what a great example of "propositions baffling or even > scandalous": There Is No Person! ------ N: You gave a very good example. We need patience (and courage) to accept: there is no person. We are so used to thinking of our social life, the interrelationship between humans. With this in mind I read the quoted suttas Dieter gave us: I liked the text: Thank you Connie and Dieter. Nina. #80848 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 11:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) nilovg Hi Larry (and James), you make interesting remarks. Op 6-jan-2008, om 16:58 heeft Larry het volgende geschreven: > I can fully sympathize with Nina's call for a simpler approach and > I agree that simply > recognizing one dhamma at a time can be a profound insight. But > this approach is more in > line with the satipatthana method. In the visuddhimagga one > _begins_ insight practice > with an intellectual understanding of every dhamma. ------- N: I think of Ch XIV of the Visuddhimagga. All conditioned dhammas are dealt with. But at the same time there are pointers to reality now that has to be understood. Sometimes we have to read between the lines. The texts states also now and then: this is taught in this way for the sake of those who are able to be led, namely to enlightenment. The goal is never forgotten. Sometimes there may be a seemingly inconsistence, but we should not forget that there are different methods of teaching. For example: according to the method of the D.O. and the method of the Patthaana. Then there are the chapters on insight stages: it seems theoretical, but in fact it points to the practice. James, I hope you would just tell me what you admire in the Visuddhimagga. I mean not for arguing, but it would interest me what passages you like best. Nina. #80849 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy nilovg Hi James, I am sorry that you feel intruded upon. Could it be that there are different opinions of what real practice is? The result may be talking cross purpose. Nina. Op 6-jan-2008, om 3:01 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Sometimes the intrusions are polite (Sarah, Jon, Nina) > and sometimes the intrusions are nasty (Ken H. and Scott), but they > are still intrusions which effectively derail any discussion about > real practice. If these intrusions are conscious or subconscious I > can't say, but I can say that I observe them. #80850 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 12:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! nilovg Dear Colette, Op 5-jan-2008, om 21:25 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > Group, although Nina and I have had our differences and we have > disagreed on things, at times, I believe that her first post in the > msg. index after Tep's post about "market conditions" was a very good > post with LOTS OF EXCELLENT MATERIAL although she bamboozeled me her > continued applications of these Pali words ------ N: Thank you for your kind words and good wishes. Also the best to you, and I hope you find an employment this year. Sorry, I should realize that not everybody knows the meaning of the terms nama, mental phenomena, and rupa, physical phenomena. Now this can be kept in your RAM. Nina. #80851 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 12:18 pm Subject: Re: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy jonoabb Hi Howard > From: upasaka@... > Date: 2008/01/06 Sun PM 12:07:57 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy > > Hi, Jon (and James) - ... > Mental factors arise by virtue of a complex set of conditions, and in the > case of the kusala mental factors the most important of these is the level to > which that mental factor had been accumulated prior to our birth in this > present lifetime. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And how did that factor come to be accumulated in previous lifetimes? > The answer would be the same, I suppose. And that provides a bottomless, > infinite recursion, Jon. What are the other factors that are the basis? It is the > other factors that are crucial. Yes, the other factors are crucial. They are those mentioned in the suttas: hearing the teachings and reflecting on what has been heard, with the understanding that it relates to the present moment. > Also, it is not only wisdom that is cultivated by meditation, but also a > mind that is calm and collected. All the path factors, many also jhana > factors as well, require cultivation. To say that they come about by accumulation > of those very same factors, and so on, and so on ... is to say nothing! Not sure why you say this. Sounds quite OK to me (except that I would say the *rearising* of those very same factors; that's why they're called "accumulations"!). What's the deficiency you see here? > The > cultivation of these factors does depend on mental activities - on intentional > practices as outlined again, and again, and again by the Buddha. Firstly, your understanding that references in the suttas to such things as the sense doors being guarded and energy being aroused are to *intentional practices* is a particular interpretation. Those references could equally be read as being to actual moments of kusala arising. Secondly, how could a mental activity that is not itself one of the kinds of kusala lead to more kusala? If insight has been developed in that past, and the teachings about insight are heard again in the present life, then I don't see why there should not be the further development of the path. > This means that the development of kusala cannot be a matter of following a > particular set of instructions, or of practising/trying to see things in a > certain way. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > That's just not true. Cultivation of specific factors requires specific > activities to occur. Again, I think the idea of a given *activity* leading to the arising of a particular *mental state* is not consonant with the teachings. That to my way of thinking is what is meant in the teachings by rites and ritual: if this is done then the mental state will be thus. Jon #80852 From: Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 12:23 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration jonoabb Hi James > From: "buddhatrue" > Date: 2008/01/06 Sun PM 01:31:39 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration > > Hi Jon, > ... > Good to have you back from your travels. Hope you can relax for a > while and enjoy Sarah's wonderful company! :-) Er, not quite. I've just started out. Arrived in Fiji on Thursday evening. But thanks for the sentiment anyway. We are able to enjoy each other's virtual company, courtesy of Skype (which I can highly recommend). I am glad that you > appreciated this post. I know that you disagree with the purposeful > cultivation of kusala, since it disagrees with your conception of > anatta, but realize that I don't disagree with your emphasis on > kusala during daily life. Meditation in isolation from daily living > would be silly and strange. I also agree with the cultivation of > kusala during daily life- I just believe that meditation can augment > that daily cultivation. Anyway, thanks again for your kind words! Glad to hear that you agree with the idea of the development of kusala in daily life. It's good to find some common ground ;-)) I have a question, though: if kusala can be developed in daily life, what do you see as being the need and purpose of meditation? Jon #80853 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 12:31 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) .. sakkayaditthi ... buddhistmedi... Hi Nina (Connie and Dieter), - I also discussed the same sutta quote (as provided by Dieter) at another group. I have thought about the 'atta-sa~n~aa' that, for a long time, has conditioned the sankhara as follows: 'This is mine,' 'I am this,' 'This is my self.'. Clearly, that sankhara is the sakkayaditthi -- the seeing of 'self' in connection with the five khandhas. See SN 22.81 below. "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well- versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form(rupa) to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication (sankhara)." etc. [SN 22.81 Parileyyaka Sutta] >Nina: We need patience (and courage) to accept: there is no person. We are so used to thinking of our social life, the interrelationship between humans. Tep: How do you suggest we do, or not do, in order to totally accept that "there is no person"? Further, after we have been successful in accepting that 'there is no person', will that acceptance be enough to abandon the 20 sakkaya- ditthis in this life time, or is there other things to do (or not to do) beyond that acceptance? The Buddha gave an answer as follows. "Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication(sankhara)? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant (anicca), fabricated, dependently co-arisen. "It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents(asavas)." [The Pali words were added by me.] What is your thought about the above meditation on Paticcasamuppada and the aniccanupassana to gain insight knowledges that abandon the sakkaya-ditthis and other asavas? It seems that the insight knowledge based on the 'anicca' characteristic is sufficient. Do you agree? Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Connie and Dieter, .... > With this in mind I read the quoted suttas Dieter gave us: > > called consciousness - towards this an uninstructed ordinary person > is not able to be dispassionate, is not able to be detached and > released. What is the reason? For a long time this has been that with which he identifies himself, to which he has been attached and has > held on to, thinking, 'This is mine,' 'I am this,' 'This is myself.' > Therefore an uninstructed ordinary person is not able to be > dispassionate towards it, to be detached and released from it.> #80854 From: upasaka@... Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 8:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/6/2008 3:18:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard > From: upasaka@... > Date: 2008/01/06 Sun PM 12:07:57 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy > > Hi, Jon (and James) - ... > Mental factors arise by virtue of a complex set of conditions, and in the > case of the kusala mental factors the most important of these is the level to > which that mental factor had been accumulated prior to our birth in this > present lifetime. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > And how did that factor come to be accumulated in previous lifetimes? > The answer would be the same, I suppose. And that provides a bottomless, > infinite recursion, Jon. What are the other factors that are the basis? It is the > other factors that are crucial. Yes, the other factors are crucial. They are those mentioned in the suttas: hearing the teachings and reflecting on what has been heard, with the understanding that it relates to the present moment. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: So, that's it, then? Hearing and thinking over? What of guarding the senses (the four right efforts)? What of intentionally being mindful whenever possible? What of cultivating the jhanas? (Hearing about them and thinking them will NEVER in themselves cultivate the jhanas. You do know that, don't you, Jon?) Jon, it seem to me that you are ignoring much of what the Buddha taught. ---------------------------------------------------- > Also, it is not only wisdom that is cultivated by meditation, but also a > mind that is calm and collected. All the path factors, many also jhana > factors as well, require cultivation. To say that they come about by accumulation > of those very same factors, and so on, and so on ... is to say nothing! Not sure why you say this. Sounds quite OK to me (except that I would say the *rearising* of those very same factors; that's why they're called "accumulations"!). What's the deficiency you see here? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: You spoke only of cultivating wisdom. ----------------------------------------------------- > The > cultivation of these factors does depend on mental activities - on intentional > practices as outlined again, and again, and again by the Buddha. Firstly, your understanding that references in the suttas to such things as the sense doors being guarded and energy being aroused are to *intentional practices* is a particular interpretation. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, it's the plain, straightforward (not convoluted) reading of the sutta teachings. -------------------------------------------------- Those references could equally be read as being to actual moments of kusala arising. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Jon, your dismissing of intentional action (aka kamma) is simply amazing to me. It is a centerpiece of the dhamma. ---------------------------------------------- Secondly, how could a mental activity that is not itself one of the kinds of kusala lead to more kusala? -------------------------------------------- Howard: What unwholesome actions was I suggesting? The four right efforts? - - - - - - - "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." — _SN 45.8_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) - - - - - - - - Please note the phrases "generates desire," "endeavors," "exerts his intent". ------------------------------------------------------ If insight has been developed in that past, and the teachings about insight are heard again in the present life, then I don't see why there should not be the further development of the path. > This means that the development of kusala cannot be a matter of following a > particular set of instructions, or of practising/trying to see things in a > certain way. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > That's just not true. Cultivation of specific factors requires specific > activities to occur. Again, I think the idea of a given *activity* leading to the arising of a particular *mental state* is not consonant with the teachings. That to my way of thinking is what is meant in the teachings by rites and ritual: if this is done then the mental state will be thus. Jon ================================= With metta, Howard #80855 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 5:50 am Subject: Friendship is the Greatest! bhikkhu0 Friends: Unique Unity: Friendship is the GREATEST! Friendship motivates the entire Noble life. Friendship is synergistic social symbiosis. Some verses from The Sutta Pitaka about Friendship: Follow only the Good Ones, Associate only with the Clever Ones, To learn the Truth from these Nobles gives an advantage like nothing else. To follow the fools & thereby copy & choose the bad ways, to know no Good Friends, is causing only Misery. As if one strings rotten fish on a straw of grass, this grass will soon smell putrid too. Exactly so with one who follows fools. As if one wraps up perfume in a common leaf, this leaf will soon smell sweet too. Exactly so with one who follows the Wise. --ooOoo-- Adapted from Gemstones of Good Dhamma Wheel 342/344 Ven. S. Dhammika, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/dhammika/wheel342.html BPS Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy, Sri Lanka. Quite cordial regards, : - ] Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ..... #80856 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 4:38 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy buddhatrue Hi Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Ease up on the bluff-and-bluster and explain what was so silly about > my comment. > James: You made a provocative, silly statement so I did the same. It was silly because you can't possibly know the minds of every member of this group. You are also not an arahant so you can't weigh the relative strength of anyone's Dhamma knowledge. > I have always agreed that amazing experiences are possible through > meditation. Mostly, meditation is an exercise in utter boredom, James: Boring? I am really surprised you say that. I don't find meditation boring but maybe you do. Are you looking for something more exciting? You could try casinos or strip clubs- I hear they are pretty exciting! ;-)) but > occasionally there will be something memorable. These experiences > occur irrespective of whatever religion or philosophy the > meditator might subscribe to. In the end they are all meaningless. James: Sometimes meaningless sometimes not. That is an entirely different subject which you wouldn't understand since you don't meditate. > > ------------------ > J: > Ken H, could you be that utterly alone? Could you? > ------------------- > > Been there, done that. James, it is time you learned about > conditioned dhammas. James: Oh yes, its about time I buy a ticket to Bangkok and sit at the Foundation listening to people drone on and on about Pali terms. Talk about boring!! None of them is you or yours - none of them > pertains to you in any way. James: I understand that. And yet they are the only things that > really exist. James: They don't exist either. They are anicca. How does that make you feel? James: Bored to tears. ;-)) > > Ken H > Metta, James #80857 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 4:46 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Real Dhamma (from Htoo) buddhatrue Hi Nina, > James, I hope you would just tell me what you admire in the > Visuddhimagga. I mean not for arguing, but it would interest me what > passages you like best. Goodness, that would be too difficult to do as there are a lot of passages I appreciate. I appreciate the entire first section on sila and the entire second section on samadhi. I don't really appreciate much in the last section on Understanding. It is too theoretical for the most part. Although I appreciate the description of the seven stages of purification. > Nina. > Metta, James #80858 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 4:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > I am sorry that you feel intruded upon. Could it be that there are > different opinions of what real practice is? The result may be > talking cross purpose. > Nina. But don't you see, there shouldn't be such divergent opinions of what real practice is. It is a Theravada Buddhist group. If you had Tibetans, Mahayana, Zen, all gathered together then there would be different opinions of what real practice is. The thing is that KS is divergent from Theravada practice and tradition (as Ven. P and Suan keep pointing out). If KS is going to call herself Theravada then she should teach from the established traditions of Theravada, if she wants to be something else then she should call herself something else. Those who are familiar with the traditions of Theravada and then meet the teachings of KS are immediately thrown for a loop because they aren't Theravada! Metta, James #80859 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 4:57 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Ignorance......wrong concentration buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: > > I have a question, though: if kusala can be developed in daily life, what do you see as being the need and purpose of meditation? James: Because kusala can't be developed in daily life without meditation as a support. The unconcentrated mind can't develop kusala in daily life because the asavas (underlying tendencies) toward greed, hatred, and delusion are too strong. The only way to counteract these strong tendencies of the mind is to develop concentration. > > Jon > Metta, James #80860 From: LBIDD@... Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 9:00 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,226 Vism.XVII,227 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XVII [How the Sixfold Base is a Condition for Contact] 226. But as regards these bases: Five in six ways; and after that One in nine ways; the external six As contact's conditionality According to each case we fix. 227. Here is the explanation: firstly, the five consisting of the eye base, etc., are conditions in six ways, as support, prenascence, faculty, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for contact classed in five ways as eye-contact, and so on. After that, the single resultant mind base is a condition in nine ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, result, nutriment, faculty, association, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the variously-classed resultant mind contact. But in the case of the external bases, the visible-data base is a condition in four ways, as object, prenascence, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for eye-contact. Likewise the sound base, etc., respectively for ear contact, and so on. But these and mental data as object are conditions likewise, and as object condition too, for mind-contact, so 'the external six as contact's conditionality according to each case we fix'. This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With the sixfold base as condition, contact'. ************************ 226. aayatanesu pana, chadhaa pa~nca tato eka.m, navadhaa baahiraani cha. yathaasambhavametassa, paccayatte vibhaavaye.. 227. tatraaya.m vibhaavanaa -- cakkhaayatanaadiini taava pa~nca cakkhusamphassaadibhedato pa~ncavidhassa phassassa nissayapurejaatindriyavippayuttaatthiavigatavasena chadhaa paccayaa honti. tato para.m eka.m vipaakamanaayatana.m anekabhedassa vipaakamanosamphassassa sahajaataa~n~nama~n~nanissayavipaakaahaaraindriyasampayuttaatthiavigata vasena navadhaa paccayo hoti. baahiresu pana ruupaayatana.m cakkhusamphassassa aaramma.napurejaataatthiavigatavasena catudhaa paccayo hoti. tathaa saddaayatanaadiini sotasamphassaadiina.m. manosamphassassa pana taani ca dhammaayatana~nca tathaa ca aaramma.napaccayamatteneva caati eva.m baahiraani cha yathaasambhavametassa paccayatte vibhaavayeti. aya.m sa.laayatanapaccayaa phassoti padasmi.m vitthaarakathaa. #80861 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 10:54 pm Subject: Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration rjkjp1 Dear James Thought you might be interested in some Buddhist history. I gave Nina (from Nakorn panom, not Nina van gorkom) a ride to her hotel after the discussion at Num's house on saturday. She was telling me about some of the old days. She knew Jack kornfield from Thailand and also they both listed to the vedanta teacher Nisargadatta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisargadatta_Maharaj while in India. When Nina went to USA in 1981 she visited Jack at Barre and it coincided with a visit by acharn cha, who was going to be teaching a retreat. She wasn't interested in doing the formal meditation so Jack asked her to help attend to acharn cha (as she knew something about monks rules and Thai language). She had many conversations with A. Cha and he was very interested to learn about how A. Sujin instructed her students. He said it was great that some people could develop insight without formal meditation but he felt most needed to calm their minds first- which is I think similar to what you say below. This seems to be the sticking point for many people about what Sujin says. Robert > > I have a question, though: if kusala can be developed in daily > life, what do you see as being the need and purpose of meditation? > > James: Because kusala can't be developed in daily life without > meditation as a support. The unconcentrated mind can't develop kusala > in daily life because the asavas (underlying tendencies) toward greed, > hatred, and delusion are too strong. The only way to counteract these > strong tendencies of the mind is to develop concentration. > #80862 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 11:28 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) sarahprocter... HI Connie, Nina & all, --- L G SAGE wrote: > Sisters: That was the cause, that was the reason, that was the origin, > that indeed was my acceptance* of the teaching. > *Khantii. This meaning is not in PED. See MLDB. > > Nina: Ven. Bodhi gave a footnote about this meaning of khanti in his > translation of the Cariyapitaka, in his book of the transl. the > Brahmajaala sutta. Even if one has not realized the truth one can still > accept it. > P. 258: dhammanijjhaanakhanti, and p. 283: anulomiyam khantiyam .thito, > acquiescence in conformity. > > Connie: Thank you. Different pages in my copy. > > p.247: <... restless due to excessive activity is abandoned through > reflective acquiescence in the Dhamma (dhammanijjhaanakkhanti)> > > note: patience in the sense of forebearance of the wrongs of others and the > endurance of doctrines which are not yet completely clear to the > understanding. Patience thus becomes a virtue not only of the will but > of the intellect as well. It is a "suspension of disbelief" born of > trust, a willingness to acquiesce in propositions baffling or even > scandalous to the rational understanding in the confidence that the > growth of wisdom will transform this acquiescence into clear and certain > knowledge. <...> S: I've never thought much of this note with its 'propositions baffling or even scandalous' and 'suspension of disbelief'. I understand this ‘refelctive acceptance’ means seeing the usefulness of khanti (patience) and developing wholesome states. It's not just a kind of following or acceptance without any understanding as I think the phrase ‘suspension of disbelief born of trust’ suggests. After all, the teachings are about developing 'one's own' understanding, not about following anything blindly. As I've quoted before, there is also more on this expression ‘dhammanijjhaanakkhanti’ in Dispeller 2074 under ‘Classification of Knowledge’. “Anulomika.m khanti.m (‘conformable acceptance’) and so on are all synonyms for understanding……………..it conforms to the Truth of the Path and it conforms owing to conforming to the highest meaning, nibbaana. And it accepts (khamati), bears, is able to see all these reasons, thus it is acceptance (khanti). ‘It sees’ is di.t.thi (‘view’)……….and in particular, the things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being studied (nijjjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with impermanence, suffering and no self, accept (khamanti) that study (nijjhaana); thus it is hammanijjhaanakkhanti (‘acceptance of study things’).” Metta, Sarah ======== #80863 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 6, 2008 11:56 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nilovg Dear Sarah, Op 7-jan-2008, om 8:28 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > As I've quoted before, there is also more on this expression > ‘dhammanijjhaanakkhanti’ in Dispeller 2074 under ‘Classification of > Knowledge’. ------ N: The Dispeller quote is even clearer. I understand that there is first intellectual understanding and one may find what one learns reasonale, though one has not directly realized the truth. This is not blind faith. ------- Nina. #80864 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha: From the PTS Pali-English Dictionary sarahprocter... Hi Howard, I don't think I replied to your thoughts in #80304 on dukkha, following my summary. Anyway, I agreed with most of what you wrote and rather liked the way you concluded here: --- upasaka@... wrote: .... >H: Letting the word 'dukkha' go for a bit, and zeroing in, instead, on > what > is really important: Conditioned dhammas, will always fall short as > sources > of perfect and lasting satisfaction. The bottom line is that more > important > than all these discussions of the fine nuances of the word 'dukkha' is > the > fact that rather than perfect and lasting satisfaction, joy, and peace > being > found in conditioned dhammas, they are found exactly in the > *relinquishment* of > conditioned dhammas and derivative concepts (conventional objects). The > > Buddha was the teacher of emptiness (not-self and no-self) and of > relinquishment. > The realization of the former and the attaining of the latter are the > death > knell for dukkata in every useful sense of the word. .... S: You've made some good points here and expressed yourself well, thank you. Metta, Sarah ======== #80865 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! sarahprocter... Hi Tep, --- Tep Sastri wrote: > Tep: Now that my busy end-of-year activities are over, I am back to > this forum. Please let me have a few more days to catch on the fast > trains of discussion here. ... S: Yes, I find the end-of-year a busy time too. Glad to see you back and I'm sure you'll 'catch on the fast trains' here in no time at all! ... > Our "good friends", who drive the fast trains, are doing a great job > with the same consistency as they did in 2007. But I wonder if anyone > here really missed my questioning (that sometimes, went off > the "track"). ... S: I'm sure many besides myself missed your sharp questioning and challenging posts with good quotes and also the more light-hearted threads too, Tep. We all go off track frequently, join the club! As James, Howard and Nina were discussing - just different dhammas, gone already:). ...... > However, I do appreciate your kind words. .... S: Thanks and I look forward to looking at knotty issues together in due course. Metta, Sarah ====== #80866 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:05 am Subject: Holy Himalaya! bhikkhu0 Friends: The Seven Links to Enlightenment Out-Shines All! The Blessed Buddha once said: Supported, Friends, by Himalaya, king of mountains, do the snake-beings [nagas] grow a body and get strength. When they have grown a body and got strength there, they go to the tiny mountain pools, therefrom to the lakes, therefrom to the streams, therefrom to the great rivers, therefrom to the sea, & lastly they go to the mighty ocean, where they complete great growth of body. Just even so, Bhikkhus & Friends, any one supported by morality, fixed in morality, who cultivates the Seven Links to Enlightenment, makes much of them, wins great growth of the right conditions and prerequisite causes of mental Enlightenment!!! And how does a Noble being, so founded in morality, so fixed in morality, cultivate the Seven Links to Enlightenment, make much of them, & win great growth of the right conditions and necessary causes of total Awakening? Such Noble Being simply cultivates the Link to Enlightenment that is Awareness, based on isolation, on detachment, on stilling, which culminates in self-surrender. Such Noble Being simply cultivates the Link to Enlightenment that is Investigation, based on solitude, on dispassion, on ceasing, which culminates in relinquishment. Such Noble Being simply cultivates the Link to Enlightenment that is Energy, based on seclusion, on indifference, on cooling, which culminates in elevation. Such Noble Being simply cultivates the Link to Enlightenment that is Joy, based on retreat, on disinterestedness, on ending, which culminates in renouncing. Such Noble Being simply cultivates the Link to Enlightenment that is Tranquillity, based on aloofness, on disgust, on stopping, which culminates in deliverance. Such Noble Being simply cultivates the Link to Enlightenment that is Concentration, based on separation, on release, on finishing, which culminates in emancipation. Such Noble Being simply cultivates the Link to Enlightenment that is Equanimity, based on withdrawal, on detachment, on stilling, which culminates in self-surrender. That is how a Noble being, so founded in morality, so fixed in morality, cultivates the Seven Links to Enlightenment, and by making much of them, wins to greatness & growth in conditions & causes resulting in Enlightenment. Source: Samyutta Nikaya V More on the Seven Links to Awakening: http://What-Buddha-Said.net/drops/III/The_Meaning_of_the-7_Links_to_Awakening.ht\ m Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #80867 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 5:01 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Thanks for indulging my interest in 'technical' answers: S: "Just the cittas, I believe. See the chart [3.5]in CMA in ch III, #18." Scott: Here it refers to sublime (mahaggata) objects. I've got to look into this further. S: "Without panna which understands the quality of calm and understands the object and how it can bring about such calm, no development of samatha..." Scott: I'm glad you are clarifying this. Again, no question of merely adopting the postures and telling one's self that one is in pursuit of jhaana. This can't bring it about. I still wonder what can. S: "...Can any bhavana not be kusala (or kiriya for arahats)?. Yes, panna always included." Scott: I think I may be taking liberties with the meaning of bhaavanaa as 'mental development' when I imagine that, from a certain perspective, there can be akusala bhaavanaa simply by virtue of the fact that akusala dhammas are strengthened as well by repeatedly arising. S: "The kamatthana is the object or 'working ground'. In this context it is one of the 40 objects of samatha...So, in this instance above, panna accompanies the jhana cittas which are 'absorbed' in the kamatthana, such as the kasina. After these cittas have fallen away, the panna of insight penetrates any of the dhammas." Scott: So pa~n~naa is an accompanying mental factor in true jhaana and then, in another application of its function of knowing, pa~n~naa then takes the factors of jhaana proper as object. S: "It is because of the panna and other factors accompanying the jhana cittas that there is complete (temporary) cessation of sense objects appearing." Scott: Another very important technical point. S: "More in U.P. under 'Jhana 16 Two Meanings'. The first refers to lokuttara cittas, The second refers to mundane jhanas. Apologies for the 'heavy'..." Scott: No worries. I meant 'heavy' as in 'I dig it'. Very good stuff to learn here. I like 'heavy'. S: "You gave a very good quote yourself recently, (#80526), so I thought you had these nailed... Atthasaalinii (p.p.222-223): "Jhaana is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object and that which examines closely the characteristic marks [aaramma.nupanijjhaana~n ca lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m]. Of these two, 'object-scrutinising' jhaana examines closely those devices [for self-hypnosis] as mental objects. Insight, the Path and Fruition are called 'characteristics-examining jhaana.' Of these three, insight is so called from its examining closely the characteristics of impermanence, etc. Because the work to be done by insight is accomplished through the Path, the Path is so called. And because Fruition examines closely the Truth of cessation, and possesses the characteristic of truth, it also is called 'characteristic-examining jhaana.' Of these two kinds of jhaana, the 'object-examining' mode is here intended. Hence, from the examining the object and extinguishing the opposing Hindrances, jhaana is to be thus understood." ..." Scott: Okay, this is good. I hadn't looked at the Pali and so I wasn't aware that the quote was dealing with these terms in particular! Nina gave the Pali for the commentary as well. Now I can look further into this as time allows... S: "How are we doing?..." Scott: Great. Thanks for your kind wishes for the New Year. Same to you and Jon. Sincerely, Scott. #80868 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 5:01 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 5 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 455. "Baalaa te duppa~n~naa, acetanaa dukkhasamudayoruddhaa; desente ajaanantaa, na bujjhare ariyasaccaani. 456. "Saccaani 'amma'buddhavaradesi, taani te bahutaraa ajaanantaa ye; abhinandanti bhavagata.m, pihenti devesu upapatti.m. 457. "Devesupi upapatti, asassataa bhavagate aniccamhi; na ca santasanti baalaa, punappuna.m jaayitabbassa. 458. "Cattaaro vinipaataa, duve ca gatiyo katha~nci labbhanti; na ca vinipaatagataana.m, pabbajjaa atthi nirayesu. 459. "Anujaanaatha ma.m ubhayo, pabbajitu.m dasabalassa paavacane; appossukkaa gha.tissa.m, jaatimara.nappahaanaaya. 453. "Those fools, unwise, senseless, hindered by the arising of pain, not knowing, do not understand the noble truths being taught. 454. "Mother, they, the majority, not knowing the truths taught by the excellent Buddha, those who rejoice in existence long for rebirth among the devas. 455. "Even rebirth among the devas is non-eternal. [It is birth] in an impermanent existence. But fools are not afraid of being reborn again and again. 456. "Four lower realms and two [higher] realms are obtained somehow or other, but for those who have gone to a nether realm, there is no going forth [as an ascetic] in the hells. 457. "Permit me, both of you, to go forth in the teaching of the Ten-Powered One. Having little greed, I shall strive for the elimination of birth and death. RD: Oh! but the foolish have no wit or will. They cannot grasp what maketh sorrow rise - When taught, they learn not; in their slumb'ring minds The Fourfold Ariyan Truth awakens not. (453) Those Truths, O mother, that th' Awakened One, The Best, the Buddha, hath revealed to us, They, the Majority, know not, and they Delight in coming aye again to be, And long to be reborn among the gods. (454) E'en with the gods is no eternal home. *415 Becoming needs must be impermanent. Yet they, the foolish souls, are not afraid Again, again to come somewhere to birth. (455) Four are the ways of doleful life, and two Alone the ways of weal *416 - and these how hard To win! Nor if one come into the four, Is there renunciation from that world. (456) Suffer ye both that I renounce my world; And in the blessed teaching of the Lord, Him of the Powers Ten, *417 heedless of all Without, I'll strive to root out birth and death. (457) *415 In Pali 'no eternal rebirth.' *416 Rebirth in 'hell,' as animal, as 'ghost,' as demon, are the four ('purgatorial lives,' vinipaata, in 452); as human or as god. the two. *417 The Ten Powers peculiar to a Tathaagata are: (1) He knows thoroughly right and wrong occasions; (2) he knows thoroughly the effect of all karma-series; (3) the methods for accomplishing anything; (4) the elements (data) of the world; (5) the various tendencies, inclinations, of beings; (6) the capacities of beings; (7) the nature and procedure of all contemplative disciplines; (8) former lives; (9) he has the 'celestial vision'; (10) he has realized the intellectual emancipation of the Arahant (A., v. 33 ff.). .. to be continued, connie #80869 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:10 am Subject: Vism.XVII,226 Vism.XVII,227 nichiconn Path of Purity, pp.679-680 Among the senses, The five in six ways, one in nine, External six in fitting ways - Such is the explanation of The cause-relation of the one. This is the explanation: Eye-sense and so on are causes of contact of five kinds such as eye-contact and so on in six ways through dependence, pre-existence, faculty, dissociation, presence, non-absence. Then the one sense of resultant mind is cause of the manifold resultant mind-contact in nine ways through co-existence, reciprocity, dependence, results, sustenance, faculty, association, presence, non-absense. Among the external senses, the sense of matter is a cause of eye-contact in four ways through object, pre-existence, presence, non-absence, likewise the senses of sound and so on are causes in four ways of ear-contact and so on. Of mind-contact however, those senses of matter and so on and the sense of mental idea {Should we not read dhammaayatana~nca for dhammaaramma.na~nca?} are causes in these four ways and also just {read aaramma.na-paccayamatten' eva} by way of the object. Thus the cause relation of the external six in fitting ways to this has been explained. This is the detailed discourse on the clause: "Conditioned by sixfold sense, contact comes to pass." #80870 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 1:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dukkha: From the PTS Pali-English Dictionary upasaka_howard Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 1/7/2008 3:14:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@... writes: Hi Howard, I don't think I replied to your thoughts in #80304 on dukkha, following my summary. Anyway, I agreed with most of what you wrote and rather liked the way you concluded here: --- upasaka@... wrote: .... >H: Letting the word 'dukkha' go for a bit, and zeroing in, instead, on > what > is really important: Conditioned dhammas, will always fall short as > sources > of perfect and lasting satisfaction. The bottom line is that more > important > than all these discussions of the fine nuances of the word 'dukkha' is > the > fact that rather than perfect and lasting satisfaction, joy, and peace > being > found in conditioned dhammas, they are found exactly in the > *relinquishment* of > conditioned dhammas and derivative concepts (conventional objects). The > > Buddha was the teacher of emptiness (not-self and no-self) and of > relinquishment. > The realization of the former and the attaining of the latter are the > death > knell for dukkata in every useful sense of the word. .... S: You've made some good points here and expressed yourself well, thank you. Metta, Sarah ================================= Thanks for the encouragement, Sarah! :-) With metta, Howard #80871 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:30 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 2, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Satipatthåna is the development of understanding of all physical phenomena and mental phenomena that appear, for the purpose of realizing them as non-self. Seeing only lasts for an extremely short moment, it falls away immediately. Also visible object falls away and is gone completely, but because of saññå, remembrance of former experiences, we think of people and things and these seem to last. This is wrong remembrance of self, attå-saññå. Through the development of right understanding we come to understand what anattå- saññå, the perception of non-self, means. We are absorbed in the images and details of things, but at least we can know that this is thinking, not seeing. Without the Buddha's teaching we would be ignorant of realities. It is of no use trying to be aware of seeing, we cannot direct the arising of sati or select any object of awareness. Lodewijk and I visited a Tibetan monastery in Sikkim and looked at a masterpiece of sculpture which took five years to be completed. We walked around it and saw many colourfull details of gods, devils, humans and also of a corpse. It was only visible object or colour that impinged on the eyesense, and this is just a reality. On account of what we see we are absorbed in the images and the details. Lodewijk asked me why I say that it is “just” visible object. I answered: “Because it is nothing else but visible object, just that.” This example shows that the latent tendencies of ignorance and sense desire condition the arising of akusala cittas time and again. Since the latent tendencies are so deeply rooted, they cannot be eradicated immediately. Right understanding has to be developed life after life so that enlightenment can be attained and the latent tendencies can be eradicated stage by stage. Our accumulated lobha, attachment, and wrong view, ditthi, cause us to cling to wrong practice. We try to find ways and means to hasten the development of paññå, but since we have accumulated ignorance of realities for aeons this is impossible. ******* Nina. #80872 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:39 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XVII,226 Vism.XVII,227 nilovg Dear Connie, Op 7-jan-2008, om 15:10 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > Of mind-contact however, those senses of matter and so on and the > sense of mental idea {Should we not read dhammaayatana~nca for > dhammaaramma.na~nca?} are causes in these four ways and also just > {read aaramma.na-paccayamatten' eva} by way of the object. -------- N: the pali: taani ca dhammaayatana~nca tathaa ca aaramma.napaccayamatteneva caati He translates dhammaayatana as mental idea, and Nanamoli: as mental data. I prefer dhammaayatana untranslated. As you rightly see, there may be confusion with such translations. Nina. #80873 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:24 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > Thanks for the reply: > > A: "For non-Buddhist Jhana then maybe Panna isn't nessesery to any > great extent (you do however need atleast SOME wisdom to do it rather > than indulge in sensuality). But for a Buddhist following the N8P IT > IS IMPORTANT." > > Scott: In Sammohavinodanii (p. 44): > > "...After that, when his virtue is established; having severed the ten >>> Sila is absolutely crucial for Meditation. I agree. > obstructions (see Vis. 89 f.), he is content through the highest > contentment with the three robes, he does the various duties for the > teacher and preceptor and, after learning a meditation subject > (kamma.t.thaana) and doing the preliminary work on a kasi.na, he >>> Re: Kasina. It may or may not be useful for all people. For some maybe. > A: "Considering that Jhana is pleasurable, steady burning, etc - we > can call it a proper Buddhist Ecstasy." > > Scott: Atthasaalinii (p.p.222-223): > > "Jhaana is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object >>> The secret isn't so much found in the object of meditation. The secret is in the how mind moves and how craving and delusion arises. Things like Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and especially DO are crucial issues that are developed due to Jhanic meditation. > Scott: The applied thought occurring during jhaana is not sense- sphere > thought. This is suppressed. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > No Kidding. You can't have sensual thoughts with craving & co while in Jhana. Lots of Metta, Alex. P.S. I am back from a 10 day FORMAL MEDITATION retreat. Lots of messages to catch up on, and I may miss some of them. #80874 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:42 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > OK. I much prefer that to 'anattaa strategy' !! But I think we should be more specific than just "Noble 8-Fold Path". >>> Sila - Samadhi - Panna >>>>>>> For example, we need to > know whether the path factors are mental factors to be developed > separately or whether they are mental factors that co-arise at moments of insight development (or something else altogether). What's your take on this? >>>>> Is knowledge of THIS detail very helpful for the actual practice? 5 to 8 Precepts. Energy + WIsdom (not I not me not I, Letting go, anicca-dukha anatta - DO, 4NT). Samma Sati + Samma Samadhi. For example Anapanasati (MN118) accomplishes 4 satipathanas and can lead ALL the way towards the goal. Metta + Brahma Viharas are even better. > > >> But you haven't explained how "anatta" (as a 'strategy') fits into the >> picture here [J: removal of 10 fetters or 3 roots]. > >> > > To completely let go of craving you utilizte Anatta as well as the > > rest of N8P. > > > By clinging to any Jhanas you can never be liberated. But if you USE the Jhanas to LET GO OF EVERYTHING, INCLUDING the cherished delusion of "SELF" - that will cause liberation. Of course this isn't a liberation of some entity called a 'soul', but neither is it a total anihilation. > > Removal [J: of the fetters, hindrances] is COMPLETE AND FOREVER removal. > > But before this can be done, temporary removal is good and still > > required (ie: to get to Jhana). > > > > To my understanding, jhana citta suppresses the hindrances. So I would > question the idea that something needs to be done to remove the > hindrances temporarily in order for jhana to be attained. > > Jon > Secluded from sensual pleasures, sense data and unwholesome places you are able to enter Jhanas. Stop purposefully feeding the hindrances, and when they get starved, then it is easier to do temporary switch 'em off. With Metta, Alex #80875 From: DC Wijeratna Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Preserving the Buddha's Teachings, Ch 4, no 3. dcwijeratna Hello, Andrew Regarding sammaadi.t.thi you wrote: "Andrew: Yes, this is a contradiction. On the one hand, it is a waste of time to think about the Ariyan's sammaadi.t.thi because it is way beyond our knowledge; but on the other hand, we have an imperfect knowledge of sammaadi.t.thi which we need to develop. Do we perfect sammaadi.t.thi without reference to a developing concept of perfect sammaadi.t.thi?" To you question the answer, as I understand the matter, is 'yes'. A concept is not knowledge; it is a belief. Buddhist path starts with knowledge (of the mundane kind); when you travel the path you get ariyan vision (dhammacakkhu or sotaapatti) and finally complete ariyan knowledge. The first kind of knowledge is the knowledge of right and wrong, ethical or moral knowledge, based on social criteria. Knowledge, by itself has no importance in Dhamma. Dhamma is for the purpose of achieving peace and happiness; or freedom from unhappiness. So if you find--know by yourself--that antisocial acts are not conducive to your happiness and happiness of society, you do not indulge in them. In the Kaalaama sutta the Buddha explains that actions springing from greed, aversion (or hatred), and delusion lead to unhappiness or have unhappy consequences. You don't accept these things because the Buddha said so. You observe your own behaviour, as well as the behaviour of others, and then understand that it is true. The difficult one is to understand delusion (moha). Here are one or two examples: Hitler had a view (di.t.thi) that Aryans are superior to Jews; the consequences are well-known. Marx believed in socialism. How many people had to die because of that? By the way, there is very little difference between religious beliefs and political beliefs. Religious wars throughout history give ample evidence. This is why you need to give up all views (di.t.thi) and come to sammaadi.t.thi. Sammaadi.t.thi, repeating myself, is the right view with respect to things that you know; not about things that you don't know. Let me amplify on this. What we really know is to kill is bad, to lie is bad and so on; not lobha, dosa etc., things connected with our inner being or mind. No harm in coveting one's neighbour's wife as long as one doesn't show it, by word or deed. This is what leads to siila. Reasoning in the above manner, I don't need 'belief' or faith. Even Bhikkhu Bodhi falls into this trap. See whether my reasoning is sound. The argument is simple: if you need knowledge, then you need to give up beliefs. I'll send you some comments on the first and second paragraphs of MN 26 in a couple of days. Now with regard to the last paragraph, you said "I did not feel that this was the truth and so I began looking elsewhere ." This is a rational decision. You did not feel it was the truth because it didn't appeal to your intellect or reason; your reasoning being based on your knowledge of the world. This is why becoming a Buddhist is not a matter of changing one set of beliefs for another set of beliefs. If so, you might have become a muslim or a hindu. Dhamma is unique, belief has no place in it. You may rememeber that I mentioned that 'Western interpretation' of Dhamma is a misinterpretation. Kind regards, D. G. D. C. Wijeratna #80876 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:22 am Subject: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex again:-), > > --- Alex wrote: > > > S: If we refer to kamma being stored, it tends to suggest something > > > lasting or preserved. > > >>> > > > >A: Something may last a long time but it is STILL IMPERMANENT. > ... > S: This is a conventional common understanding (mis-understanding) of impermanence, not the truth of anicca which refers to the impermanence of all conditioned dhammas which arise and fall away instantly. > ... First of all I do not contradict the idea that everything changes. I did not contradict the quickness of change. > >The 8th > > Jhanic sphere of existence lasts 84K MK if I remember correctly. Even > > though that is a HUGE time - IT IS IMPERMANENT . > ... > S: Again you are referring to concepts and an ordinary idea about > impermanence. There are only ever cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising and > falling away. Anything else (apart from nibbana) is a concept, not a > reality. > ... > > > S: Cetana or kamma falls away like all other dhammas as > soon as it > > has arisen. However, its 'force' is accumulated. As each citta > > > conditions the next citta in an unbroken series of cittas, kamma > > > can bring a result later. > > > > > > The latent tendency of greed is also accumulated. This tendency lies > > > dormant until there are conditions for it to arise. If it is strong > > > enough, it will lead to a course of kamma-patha which will bring its > > > result(s) later. > ... > > Sarah, you are not saying anything I didn't say above. 'Storehouse' > > (Alaya Vijnana ie) and accumulations are two different ways to > > describe the same thing. The fact is that KAMMA stays until it brings > > fruits or goes defunct. > ... > S: No, kamma is cetana cetasika which arises and falls away instantly. > Nothing 'stays' or is 'stored'. However, by conditions, its fruit may arise later. >>> The phrase that "by conditions, its fruit may arise later." is what I tried to say. THIS stays for a certain time after which it passes away. The bad kamma which is bound to reach fruitition later doesn't disappear - the memory, the 'account' is there. Lots of Metta, Alex #80877 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:38 am Subject: Re: for Alex/re:absorption consentration... truth_aerator Dear Bhante, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "reverendaggacitto" wrote: > > Hi Alex! > > It does not surprise me that when you quote me you you do it > incompleatly and twist the context of what was said.You wrote > "you cant really have insight in a blind,deaf, cognitionless trance" > implying that this described jhana meditation. >>> THis ISN'T Jhana! It is NEVER a "blind, deaf, cognitionless trance" which is similiar to what some teachers teach. >>> > Your statement regarding the nimitta and under what condition it can occur and how it should be regarded etc...only once again,reveals > your utter ignorance of the subject! >>>> I take the suttas as my authority. Please tell me where the "signs" and "visions" MUST precede before Jhana?! If they were of any importance, they would have been mentioned OFTEN! Lots of Metta, Alex #80878 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:41 am Subject: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Howard (& Alex & all), > > --- upasaka@... wrote: > > > But the "particulate, discrete, film-frame" view of anicca espoused > > by > > the students of Khun Sujin (and in some Mahayanist writings, and by > > some other > > Theravadins including a number of American "insight meditation" > > teachers > > such as Joseph Goldstein) doesn't seem to me to appear in the Tipitaka. > > In > > particular, I don't recall having seen it in suttas. Is it widespread > > in the > > suttas, and can you provide clear examples of it in the Buddha's > > teaching? > .... > S: Looking at the first sutta in Salayatanavagga, SN, 'The impermanent', > it refers to how the inner ayatanas, such as eye-sense, body-sense and > mind (i.e cittas) are impermanent. >>> Is this impermanence of the sense organs and sense data (large scale). Or is it super radical impermanence. BTW, how long does each 'dhamma' lasts? Because they are impermanent, they are > dukkha and anatta. Understanding such dhammas and their characteristics is > the way to become dispassionate or detached from what is conditioned and > thereby liberated. > > By implication the outer ayatanas are also included. These consist of > visible objects and so on, tangible objects, subtle rupas and cetasikas. > All are impermanent. As soon as any dhammas arise, they fall away > immediately. This is the only meaning of the characteristic of anicca in the Buddha's teachings. > > Other ideas we have are conventional ideas only. > .... > [1] "And what is the perception of inconstancy? There is the case where a monk — having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building — reflects thus: 'Form is inconstant, feeling is inconstant, perception is inconstant, fabrications are inconstant, consciousness is inconstant.' Thus he remains focused on inconstancy with regard to the five aggregates. This, Ananda, is called the perception of inconstancy. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.060.than.html#ani cca > > Howard: > >.....I am rather much of a radical "annica-ist" (or > > "non-remainderist"). But I shy away from "atomism", as I see it as a form of discrete realism that reifies and solidifies and misses the >true radical, middle-way insubstantialism of reality. >>> I agree with Howard. It is extremely easy to refute "atomism" as it is a very flawed idea. THe most important however is to follow Buddha's path (sila, SAMADHI and Panna) and who knows, one may achieve "knowledges" which will answer these problems. Lots of Metta, Alex #80879 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Absorption 'Concentration' Vs Buddha's wise Jhanic Ecstasy truth_aerator Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > --- Alex wrote: > > > > S: Sorry, but ekaggata does mean concentration or one- pointedness. > > It is a > > > 'universal' mental factor which arises with every single citta. > > >>> > > > > That is one of the difinitions of Ekagga(Calm, tranquil) ta. > ... > S: See the following messages in U.P. > Concentration 2 (ekaggata) 41212, 41329, 41367, 41428, 42402, 42505, > 56047, 77414 > > Ekaggata cetasika arises with every single citta, including akusala > cittas. When there is anger or greed, there is ekaggata. No calm or > tranquility at such moments. > .... > >>> We are talking about different "ekaggata's" then. > > Anyways, even if you prefer to mistranslate it as Concentration. > > Remember, the one pointedness is due to stillness & calm - NEVER > > THROUGH FORCE. > ... > S: Calm or tranquillity is a support only when the citta is kusala (or > kiriya for arahants). When concentration arises most of the day, there is > no calm. > ... > > Remember, Buddha has NEVER taught access or momentary or (even > > worse) fixed absorption 'concentration' which is more like aversion > > rather than true insight. > ... > S: I think you are misunderstanding these terms. You often, often refer to > the jhana. When there is jhana, there is absorption concentration (appana > samadhi). There is never aversion with appana samadhi. > Appana, Khanika or Upacara Samadhi were never mentioned in the suttas. > I think we have to be more precise. > .... > <..> > > > S: Yes, because the concentration is akusala - worse than useless! > > > .... > > > > > > > So do Jhana (Ecstasy) instead! Do it in a proper way as is said in > > the suttas. > ... > S: No one *does* Jhana in anyway! Just conditioned states arising and falling away, Alex. No atta anywhere to be found or anything to *do*. > ... > <..> You are mistaking my conventional speech for absolute one. With this, you'll misinterpret all or most of my posts. Lots of Metta, Alex #80880 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:48 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration nilovg Dear Robert, It was good to hear that you all met at Num's house and that Nina V. also attended. I am glad that A. Cha was interested in Kh Sujin's way of explanation, it shows that he is openminded. Yes, the idea of calm first. I could never understand the point of this. Citta is so fast. One may plan to be calm, but who can direct citta? Anyway, if akusala does not arise one does not know it and it cannot be eradicated, ever. I hope you tell us more about the discussion at Num's house, Nina. Op 7-jan-2008, om 7:54 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven: > She had many > conversations with A. Cha and he was very interested to learn about > how A. Sujin instructed her students. He said it was great that some > people could develop insight without formal meditation but he felt > most needed to calm their minds first- which is I think similar to > what you say below. > This seems to be the sticking point for many people about what Sujin > says. #80881 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy nilovg Hi James, Op 7-jan-2008, om 1:53 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Those who are familiar with the traditions of Theravada and > then meet the teachings of KS are immediately thrown for a loop > because they aren't Theravada! ------- N: Here we see that there are different opinions about what Theravada is. The teachings of the 'elders', I think, the ancient commentaries included. If people exclude these, there are already different opinions about the fact that there are those who attain jhaana before becoming enlightened, and those who do not, the 'dry insight workers'. See also Visuddhimagga. As to your answer about the Visuddhimagga, it is such a huge work and one can study what one is inclined to, I think. I find the first ch and also ch 2, about the ascetic practices, make very good reading. Also all the recollections. Even if one is not inclined to jhana, one can find many good thoughts in these chapters. About sila: very good for daily life. About understanding: this depends on the individual. As I wrote to Larry, they may just seem to be theory, but they point to your daily life. NIna. #80882 From: Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 12:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy jonoabb Hi James > From: "buddhatrue" > Date: 2008/01/06 Sun PM 01:39:44 HKT > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy > > Hi Jon, ... > The only thing the texts have to state about prior accumulations is > in regards to difficulty. Those who have prior accumulations find > practice of the Buddha's path very easy to do. Those who don't have > such accumulations find the Buddha's path difficult to do. Of course, it's not a case of either having prior accumulations or not, but rather a matter of the degree of prior accumulations. However, > the texts still describe the same practices (virtue and meditation) > for both types of people. And, most importantly, the texts state > that both types can reach the goal of nibbana in one lifetime. Yes, the development of the path is the same regardless of the degree of prior accumulations. But a higher degree of accumulated panna from previous lives means the path will be more quickly and easily resumed in the new lifetime (assuming the person gets to hear the teachings). In the suttas it is referred to as "meritorious deeds done in the past", and is one of the conditions given as facilitating the development of the path. Again, the real question to be considered is, what is the development of the path as taught by the Buddha. I think you said in another thread that, as you see it, the Buddha taught that insight can not be developed at all unless jhana has first been attained. Is that how you see it? If so, it would be a position that no-one else has put forward to date, as far as I know. Jon > ps. Sorry, can't give any text references because my husband (wife) > is getting on my case. ;-)) This (and the cat litter bit) gets the prize for the best excuse yet for lack of text references ... #80883 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 6:45 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy philofillet Hi Jon and all Happy New Year. Very nice progress with my great oeuvre, so I'll be lurking mostly, but will join on occasion before I get back into full swing. Jon > Again, I think the idea of a given *activity* leading to the arising of a particular *mental state* is not consonant with the teachings. That to my way of thinking is what is meant in the teachings by rites and ritual: if this is done then the mental state will be thus. This is an interesting point. From what I've seen in the tipitaka, "rites and rituals" refers to animal sacrifices, fire ceremonies that kind of thing. But in this day and age I can see it could refer to the kind of meditation practices that promise ariyan attainments if one does a 3 week retreat, that sort of thing. As for *activities* the tipitaka is chock full of activities that contribute to the conditioning of desirable mental states. They're not linked directly to them in a "zero conditional" way (if it rains you get wet, if you sit, you get right samadhi) and I don't think anyone but the most unscrupulous (unskillful) meditation teacher would claim that. It's all about increasing probabilities through wise application of the Buddha's teaching, I think. BTW, I'm studying the SPD again and finding it very good. As is Perfections. I keep stumbling when I come across references to anything like "be aware of present realities" because I find it contradictory to be told this, when on other occasions I am told that sitting and watching the breath is a form of greed/delusion etc. I still find the notion of being encouraged to be aware of present realities in daily life greedy and impatient too. I'm not understanding/having faith in that kind of satipatthana, or perhaps any kind of satipatthana these days. I am feeling very motivated in a kind of practice in which all the objects of attention are conceptual, and there is a lot of sorting out of wholesome and unwholesome in a pretty basic way amoung those concepts. Do you all know the great sutta in the satipatthana section of SN about the acrobats? Of course you do. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn47/sn47.019.olen.html "And how does one look after others by looking after oneself? By practicing (mindfulness), by developing (it), by doing (it) a lot. And how does one look after oneself by looking after others? By patience, by non-harming, by loving kindness, by caring (for others). (Thus) looking after oneself, one looks after others; and looking after others, one looks after oneself." I am finding it very helpful to practice within the framework of this sutta. "Looking after oneself looking after others" is so conceptual, the objects of loving kindness, compassion, non-harming, patience are so likely to involve people and stories. I think this is the territory where worldlings can practice in the richest way. And then when one is protected, when virtue is established thanks to this sort of perspective, within the circle of that protection, if you will, one looks after others in a deeper and more liberating way by practing mindfulness in which objects are much more paramattha, but this kind of mindfulness *does not* and *should not be expected to* arise because a teacher tells us to do so. I think AS is a little bit too enthusiastic about deep awareness arising in daily life. Not for me, not yet, but that could change. I think SPD is wonderful, really great, and the book on Perfections, but only as long as I am practicing in a more conceptual way, a more protective way that is suitable for a greedy, hateful, deluded worlding such as me! :) Oh, I grew a beard over the winter vacation. I often do, and Naomi asks me to keep it, because I do look better with it, but I shave it off. This year I kept it on, as a gift to Naomi, and my oh my it is causing trouble because I've become such a sexy beast. People who have taught in Asia will know that students often compare westerners to movie stars. In the past I was compared to Chip, the Disney cartoon chipmonk. Today, I was compared to Jack Bauer, the rugged hero of the action series 24! This will lead to lust problems! I can see why monks shave their heads. Don't worry, I am now following strong and clear principles on morality, so have all kinds of helpful remedies for dealing with the situation! :) Anyways, just to say hello and wish you all a Happy New year. Won't be discussing much, not yet. Metta, Phil p.s still intend to get back to robert and matt when i have more time to get into a proper discussion. thanks for waiting. please feel free to add comments to this post, anyone, but i won't be replying. #80884 From: "Phil" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:39 am Subject: poor translation philofillet Hi again I shouldn't have linked to that ATI translation - it is doubtful. "Do mindfulness a lot" - that is the kind of thing that gives meditation a bad name. Mindfulness is a conditioned dhamma. It won't arise because we are told to "do it" a lot. Please disregard that translation (Olendzki) and refer to the BB. I'm going to look up the Pali of that section. Metta, Phil p.s On the other hand, it is quite right that we are often told to be heedful. Appamada is something that we can, should, must, will have to maintain as constantly as possible. The Buddha's last words are not to be neglected. Thinking of appamada as a momentary dhamma that arises now and then is a grave error, I think. It is an attitude of mind that has to be clung to until it no longer has to be clung to. Please feel free to disagree. :) Catch you all again in a few weeks. #80885 From: "colette" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 7:43 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! ksheri3 Good Morning Nina, "...kept in my ram", huh? It IS ALWAYS IN MY RAM however, BECAUSE OF BUDHISM AND THE BUDDHIST ANALYSIS TECHNIQUE now I can verbalize it better. In fact a lot of new found verbal abilities ARE A DIRECT RESULT OF my concentration on Buddhism. Sure, in my head it all makes sense and I have always had to rely on the fail safe of Shamanism BUT I KNOW that I am dealing and associating with a higher class, level of intelligence, people that have the ability to understand what I'm saying THEREFORE I also have to raise MY INTELLIGENCE LEVEL, manor of speaking, to better interact with those people that want to interact with me. Concering Nama and Rupa, Sorry, I have to go with "instinct" on that one. Once I found the Abhidharma definition of Nama and Rupa, sorry, there is no room to negotiate: either it is or it is not. I could get into my past practices in "magikal" theory according to such people as the Golden DAwn, Blavatsky, et al, but that would then be past dharma which is just that PAST and therefore can only be applied as a reflection, a vehicle to repose upon, "hind sight". I have always thought that the terminology of Nama and Rupa ARE ACTUAL COGNITIONS AND FUNDAMENTALS OF THE STATUS QUO, however, since finding groups such as this group, in 2004, I am now cognizant that more than the majority of the status quo is utterly IGNORANT concerning the theories and principles that I consider to be FUNDAMENTAL. Hopefully I'll have time to get back and jest, joke, with Tep, after I do other things but we can't be sure about the blood sucker, vampire, TIME, the clock tic tic ticking away. toodles, colette --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: <...> > N: Thank you for your kind words and good wishes. Also the best to > you, and I hope you find an employment this year. > Sorry, I should realize that not everybody knows the meaning of the > terms nama, mental phenomena, and rupa, physical phenomena. Now this > can be kept in your RAM. .... #80886 From: "Alex" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 1:07 pm Subject: This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said truth_aerator Then the Blessed One said to Ven. Ananda, "Now, if it occurs to any of you — 'The teaching has lost its authority; we are without a Teacher' — do not view it in that way. Whatever Dhamma & Vinaya I have pointed out & formulated for you, that will be your Teacher when I am gone. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.5-6.than.html#chap5 (Dhamma = Suttas ONLY) Nowadays, the Buddha's teachings are often referred to as Tipitaka or Tripitaka (Three Treasuries), although they were called "Dhamma- Vinaya" by the Buddha in the discourses. In Anguttara Nikáya Sutta 4.180, the Buddha specifically refers to Dhamma as the Suttas (discourses). Vinaya is the disciplinary code of monks and nuns. In the Nikáyas, it is also implied that the Suttas are "Saddhamma" which means "true Dhamma". http://www.geocities.com/dhammapada2all/ --- Mahavamsa – The 2nd Sangha Council the history of Mahasanghika / Mahayana (The Great Community bikkhus) http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mahavamsa/chap004.html Let us consider what happened after the Buddha's passing away. About 100 years after the Buddha passed into Nibbána, conflict (bhikkus of the Vajji-clan who did shamelessly teach the 10 points were lawful) arose among the monks (Yasa & theras; All free from Asavas or known as Arahant nowadays with the bhikkus of the Vajji-clan (- which bears the name Mahasamghika (The Great Community bikkhus) in the The Third Sangha Council ). The Second Sangha Council (eleven hundred ninety thousand bikkhus under Thera Revata) was consequently called to resolve these differences. Ten points were disputed, one of which concerned whether we should always follow the advice of our Teacher. In this case, it was decided that if a monk's teachings or instructions were in accordance with the Buddha's teachings (i.e. the earliest Suttas and Vinaya), then his words should be followed. However, if his instructions contradicted the Buddha's teachings, they should be ignored. http://www.geocities.com/dhammapada2all/ --- Lots of Metta, Alex #80887 From: upasaka@... Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 9:43 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Robert) - In a message dated 1/7/2008 2:48:41 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear Robert, It was good to hear that you all met at Num's house and that Nina V. also attended. I am glad that A. Cha was interested in Kh Sujin's way of explanation, it shows that he is openminded. Yes, the idea of calm first. I could never understand the point of this. Citta is so fast. One may plan to be calm, but who can direct citta? -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, I really don't understand why you could never understand this. A mind that is turbulent can't "see" clearly. So, calm is needed. Moreover, as for directing citta, the mind is calmed by the regular practice of sila and by the regular practice of meditation, most especially jhana. It isn't a matter of "Let me now make my mind be calm," though there are means even for that to some extent, but is a matter of cultivating over a period of time a relatively lasting mental calmness. As for the speed of citta, that is irrelevant: The speed of change of cittas and cetasikas is fast compared to the speed of change of rupas, but mind keeps pace with mind. It is not like an observer standing back and looking at a quickly moving stream of screen images; the observing is part of the stream itself. Though mindstates that are to be examined are fast moving, so is the mind that does the examining, for they all are parts of the very same mindstream. -------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, if akusala does not arise one does not know it and it cannot be eradicated, ever. --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Calm need not be total. In fact, at the start of a meditation session, one build *towards* total calm, and during that process hindrances are present for inspection with the mind incompletely calm but sufficiently calm to examine the hindrances clearly. Moreover, even for one who enters jhanas, upon exiting from them the hindrances again arise, but with considerable calm still in effect. If one requires extremes, nothing makes sense. Total lack of calm precludes investigation of that very turbulence itself and of everything else, and with total presence of calm, there is no turbulence to examine at all. So countenancing only one extreme or the other makes insight into mental upset an impossibility. That is the error of extremes. ------------------------------------------------------------- I hope you tell us more about the discussion at Num's house, Nina. ============================== With metta, Howard #80888 From: "morley.chalmers" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 1:35 pm Subject: Seeking info on Nyanatiloka morley.chalmers I've been asked by BPS (Buddhist Publication Society in Sri Lanka) to gather up more information about Nyanatiloka, the great teacher who came to British Ceylon in the first decade of the last century, took ordination, the first continental European to do so, and founded the Island Hermitage in Ceylon as a place for non-Asian seekers. He lived a long life and had a profound effect on bringing the Theravada teachings of the Buddha to the attention of the modern world. His students founded BPS. Both the Island Hermitage and BPS continue to this day. Nyanatiloka's dates are 1878-1957. Strangely there's no profile on him on Wikipedia, and the very thinnest of profiles on Nyanaponika one of Nyanatiloka's major students and a co-founder of BPS. We're looking for two kinds of help. 1. First, we're looking for details on Nyanatiloka's life from the time he was interned by the British as an enemy alien at the start of the Second World War in 1939, right through to Nyanatiloka's death in 1957. Oddly, we have lots of rich detail on the first three-quarters of Nyanatiloka's life, much of it from his own hand, but barely anything from the period of the writing of the great Buddhist Dictionary and Nyanaponika's hand in encouraging the founding of BPS, and everything in between. We're looking for pointers, both on the web and off, snippets, photos, whatever. If anything gets published we'll ask explicit permission prior to use. Right now we're on the hunt for what's available. We're open to additional material from 1878 to 1939, but that period is already rich in detail. 2. Second, we're looking for assessments on Nyanatiloka's life and his affect on the birthing of Theravada Buddhism beyond southeast Asia. While most individuals who knew Nyanatiloka personally are now themselves gone, we're looking for both contemporary and past writers commentaries on this quite remarkable figure. Again, we'll ask for explicit permission to publish prior to use. Right now, we're looking for what's available. If you can help in either of these two objects, please respond to this posting here and we'll make further contact. Let's use the internet to recover this corner of our collective past. With metta, #80889 From: "Sukinder" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration sukinderpal Dear Nina, I have just uploaded a photo to the DSG Meeting section, of last Saturday's discussions at Num's house. Not present were Ivan and Elle who went to Chiang Rai on that same day. Sukin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Robert, > It was good to hear that you all met at Num's house and that Nina V. > also attended. I am glad that A. Cha was interested in Kh Sujin's #80890 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:15 pm Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,226 Vism.XVII,227 nichiconn Dear Nina, Op 7-jan-2008, om 15:10 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > Of mind-contact however, those senses of matter and so on and the sense of mental idea {Should we not read dhammaayatana~nca for dhammaaramma.na~nca?} are causes in these four ways and also just {read aaramma.na-paccayamatten' eva} by way of the object. -------- N: the pali: taani ca dhammaayatana~nca tathaa ca aaramma.napaccayamatteneva caati He translates dhammaayatana as mental idea, and Nanamoli: as mental data. I prefer dhammaayatana untranslated. As you rightly see, there may be confusion with such translations. C: I'm flattered you might think I've learned so much when I'm still such a Pali bonehead. My apologies for not being clear that the remarks in curly bracket's are PM Tin's footnotes. Still, I'm not altogether clear on the distinction... is it that once a dhamma has fallen away it can't be ayatana but must be only aramma.na? thank you, connie #80891 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:40 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy buddhatrue Hi Nina, Just one comment: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: If people exclude these, there are already different > opinions about the fact that there are those who attain jhaana before > becoming enlightened, and those who do not, the 'dry insight > workers'. See also Visuddhimagga. I have the Visuddhimagga and it states that dry insight workers have achieved the first jhana but it isn't stable. Metta, James #80892 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:44 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy buddhatrue Hi Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: I think you said in another thread that, as you see it, the Buddha taught that insight can not be developed at all unless jhana has first been attained. Is that how you see it? If so, it would be a position that no-one else has put forward to date, as far as I know. > I didn't say that. Metta, James #80893 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:45 pm Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy nichiconn Dear Scott, S: "...Can any bhavana not be kusala (or kiriya for arahats)?. Yes, panna always included." Scott: I think I may be taking liberties with the meaning of bhaavanaa as 'mental development' when I imagine that, from a certain perspective, there can be akusala bhaavanaa simply by virtue of the fact that akusala dhammas are strengthened as well by repeatedly arising. c: Ah, well, I'll consider myself in good company then. peace, connie #80894 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:47 pm Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Sarah, You're probably right that 'suspension of disbelief' would suggest a blind faith to most people... dunno! Maybe 'suspension of belief' would be better... questioning/considering that the things we've always just "known" might not be quite so after all. Things that come to mind include the ideas that we see/hear/'multi process stuff' & (to leave that 'no people' can of worms alone for a change) quoting the footnote on p.270 (Net of Views): << Suffering is said to be the decisive support for faith (dukkhuupanisaa saddhaa) in the Upanisa Sutta, S.II.1.3.3. The "perception of discontent with all the world" is one of the subjects of meditation in the Girmaananda Sutta (A.X.6.10). >> For me, it comes as a bit of shock sometimes to remember some of the teachings when I'm all caught up in "life"/my stories. peace, connie #80895 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 4:55 pm Subject: Re: Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration buddhatrue Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: She had many > conversations with A. Cha and he was very interested to learn about > how A. Sujin instructed her students. He said it was great that some > people could develop insight without formal meditation but he felt > most needed to calm their minds first- which is I think similar to > what you say below. > This seems to be the sticking point for many people about what Sujin > says. > Robert Thanks for the history. It was very interesting. Yeah, that is a sticking point. But, it isn't just that. I can accept that some people have the ability to develop insight without formal meditation. People have different accumulations. But that isn't all that KS teaches. What I see presented in this group is the idea that ANYONE who practices meditation is doing something wrong. I have seen posts written to monks telling them that they shouldn't be practicing meditation either! It's really outrageous and shocking. Metta, James #80896 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 5:05 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Yes, the idea of calm first. I could never understand the point of > this. Citta is so fast. One may plan to be calm, but who can direct > citta? Anyway, if akusala does not arise one does not know it and it > cannot be eradicated, ever. This is really crazy thinking. First, you are saying that jhana is impossible because of anatta (which you should know is patently false). Second, you are saying that the mind must be akusala in order to be kusala. If akusala does not arise, then the person is an arahant and the task is done. Jhana alone doesn't stop akusala from arising, only insight does that. Metta, James #80897 From: "glenjohnann" Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 8:52 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration glenjohnann THanks, Sukin, lovely to see everyone. Ann --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > I have just uploaded a photo to the DSG Meeting section, of last > Saturday's discussions at Num's house. Not present were Ivan and Elle > who went to Chiang Rai on that same day. > #80898 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 7, 2008 11:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy sarahprocter... Deqr Scott & Connie, --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Thanks for indulging my interest in 'technical' answers: ... Sarah: That was for others who might see it that way. I think that the aspects of the teachings we don't understand appear technical. For some, even discussions about seeing and visible object or namas and rupas seems technical. For most of us, the entire Patthana seems technical. Of course it wasn't/isn't for the very wise. .... > S: "Without panna which understands the quality of calm and > understands the object and how it can bring about such calm, no > development of samatha..." > > Scott: I'm glad you are clarifying this. Again, no question of merely > adopting the postures and telling one's self that one is in pursuit of > jhaana. This can't bring it about. I still wonder what can. .... S: Only the appropriate right understanding. For example, for the development of metta, there has to be a clear understanding of what metta is, distinct from its near enemy of attachment. Truly appreciating its value and benefit, metta develops when there are opportunities as there are throughout the day, to show friendliness, kindness and consideration. [I liked this extract Connie recently posted which I think stresses the point, #80783: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Sujin Boriharnwanaket; translated by Nina van Gorkom. Chapter 9: The Perfection of Loving-kindness (ending) "However, a person should consider what kind of citta motivates his thinking, whether he thinks with mettaa, compassion, sympathetic joy or equanimity. When someone receives the result of a bad deed, when he is in trouble and distress, or he has to suffer, people will feel sorry for him. But actually, they should have mettaa and compassion for him at the moment he commits akusala kamma which is the cause of a future result. If one sympathizes with him when he receives an undesirable result, one sympathizes too late. If we are a real friend we can help a person to be free from deeds and thoughts which are akusala, to have wholesome conduct instead of unwholesome conduct. In the ultimate sense there are no beings or persons, there are only realities arising and falling away, each with their own characteristic. We think of different situations and people with kusala citta or with akusala citta. We should know the difference between kusala and akusala. If we live according to the Dhamma, we shall further develop pa~n~naa and every kind of kusala. We shall know immediately at which moment we have no loving-kindness but akusala. Then we shall be able to have loving-kindness immediately, also for a person who behaves like an enemy."] ... > S: "...Can any bhavana not be kusala (or kiriya for arahats)?. Yes, > panna always included." > > Scott: I think I may be taking liberties with the meaning of bhaavanaa > as 'mental development' when I imagine that, from a certain > perspective, there can be akusala bhaavanaa simply by virtue of the > fact that akusala dhammas are strengthened as well by repeatedly > arising. ... Sarah: It's true as you say that akusala 'develops' and strengthens as it accumulates. It's also true that the texts refer to right and wrong path factors, right and wrong jhana factors and that in the sense of prolonging samsara, even that attainment of jhana is considered as wrong path. However, I don't recall seeing the term 'bhaavanaa' used in an akusala or 'wrong' sense, but I may have forgotten about it. I thought that when it was used in the context of the development of mental states, it was always with regard to the development of calm (samatha) or ingisht (vipassana). (I just looked in Nyantiloka and the Atthasalini, and this is all I found there too.) I'll be glad to see any references you or Connie can show me of it being used in the sense of akusala development. I'm sure Connie has the relevant Pali at her fingertips:). ..... > S: "The kamatthana is the object or 'working ground'. In this context > it is one of the 40 objects of samatha...So, in this instance above, > panna accompanies the jhana cittas which are 'absorbed' in the > kamatthana, such as the kasina. After these cittas have fallen away, > the panna of insight penetrates any of the dhammas." > > Scott: So pa~n~naa is an accompanying mental factor in true jhaana and > then, in another application of its function of knowing, pa~n~naa then > takes the factors of jhaana proper as object. ... Sarah: Panna always has the function of knowing, whether accompanying jhana cittas or vipassana cittas. Just different kinds and degrees of knowing. Like now, there can be knowing rightly about conceptsor direct right knowing about realities. Metta, Sarah ======= #80899 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XVII,226 Vism.XVII,227 nilovg Dear Connie, I am still in the middle of my study and also checking the Tiika and other co.. I cannot add too much. There are many points to consider. Op 8-jan-2008, om 1:15 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > Still, I'm not altogether clear on the distinction... is it that > once a dhamma has fallen away it can't be ayatana but must be only > aramma.na? --------- N: Nanamoli trans: The sense objects (the external aayatanas) and dhammaayatana are object-condition for mind-contact. First of all: mind-contact is accompanying all cittas that are not the pa~nca-vi~n~naa.nas, thus also for example receiving- consciousness etc. in a sense-door process. See Expositor p. 127. I had to check this again. The eyesense is cakkhaayatana (aayatana of the eye) during the whole eye-door process, since it has not fallen away. It associates with the other aayatanas: the outer aayatana of visibla object that has not fallen away. The manaayatana of citta and the external aayatanas of cetasikas (dhammaayatana). Then the eyesense and visible object fall away when the sense-door process is over, and theye are not aayatanas any more, no longer associating. See Dhamma Issues, the first study on aayatanas: < In the five sense-door processes the eye- sense (cakkhu pasåda rúpa) etc. is åyatana at each moment of citta in the eye-door process, not only at the moment seeing (cakkhuviññåùa) arises. The sources which support this conclusion: 1. The “Dispeller of Delusion”, Sammohavinodaní, the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Ch 2, Classification of the Bases (åyatanas), Suttanta Division. 2. Visuddhimagga, Ch XV, Description of the Bases and Elements. ... The reason is that both the eye-sense and the visible object are realities which have not fallen away yet and that they are “associating” at each moment of citta of the eye-door process> ****** NIna. #80900 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 1:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy nilovg Hi Phil, Good to see you again. Thanks for your good wishes (but it is after Jan. 6), and likewise. Op 7-jan-2008, om 15:45 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > I think AS is a > little bit too enthusiastic about deep awareness arising in daily > life. Not for me, not yet, but that could change. I think SPD is > wonderful, really great, and the book on Perfections, but only as > long as I am practicing in a more conceptual way, -------- N: I am glad you appreciate the books. You just do not understand A.S. We are not prodded to awareness of this moment. She keeps on saying: understanding, it is understanding that develops. Not: *we* develop understanding. Nina. #80901 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 1:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy/ Happy New Year to all of us ! nilovg Dear Colette, thanks for your post. Yes, my main problem is the clock tic tic ticking away, as you so well express. Nina. Op 7-jan-2008, om 16:43 heeft colette het volgende geschreven: > Hopefully I'll have time to get back and jest, joke, with Tep, after > I do other things but we can't be sure about the blood sucker, > vampire, TIME, the clock tic tic ticking away. #80902 From: "jonoabb" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 1:34 am Subject: Re: Anatta special vs. anicca and dukkha (was, Report ...) jonoabb Hi Dieter --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Jon , > > seemingly there are some misunderstandings.. Yes ;-)) > Above (inversion): > 'Monks, there is the case where some worthy men study the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions [the earliest classifications of the Buddha's teachings]. Having studied the Dhamma, they ascertain the meaning (or: the purpose) of those Dhammas 5 with their discernment. Having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they come to an agreement through pondering J: I don't see these passages as supporting the idea that the teachings are a guideline on the basis on which a raft is to be constructed. I see them and the rest of the teachings as a (very) detailed description or explanation of the way things are, and I see the (gradual) realization by direct experience of what is described or explained in detail in the teachings as constituting the development of the path. So I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one ;-)) > Jon: > No, I don't think we can reason like that. There is absence ofattachment to the khandhas at every moment of kusala. > Perhaps you could give a sutta quote for each of these 2 terms showing > them in context. Then it would be easier to discuss > > D: I selected some suttas from Samyutta Nikaya (transl. J.D.Ireland) see below and > hope you may not only enjoy the reading but recognize some misunderstandings.. Thanks for the sutta quotes. Just taking the first one, it seems to me clearly to support the idea that there are levels of detachment. How do you see it? Will end here for now. Jon PS Did you see the message asking for info about Ven Nyanatiloka (#80888)? I thought you might have some info to share. > "An uninstructed ordinary person, bhikkhus, might well be dispassionate towards this body, made of the four great elements, might well detach himself and be released from it. For what reason? It is seen how this body grows and decays, is taken up and laid aside. Therefore an uninstructed ordinary person might well be dispassionate toward it, might well detach himself and be released from it. But this, bhikkhus, which is called mind, is called thought, is called consciousness - towards this an uninstructed ordinary person is not able to be dispassionate, is not able to be detached and released. What is the reason? For a long time this has been that with which he identifies himself, to which he has been attached and has held on to, thinking, 'This is mine,' 'I am this,' 'This is myself.' Therefore an uninstructed ordinary person is not able to be dispassionate towards it, to be detached and released from it. #80903 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 2:05 am Subject: Re: Swimming analogy philofillet Hi Nina > N: I am glad you appreciate the books. Yes, they are good. Thanks as always for your translations. >You just do not understand > A.S. We are not prodded to awareness of this moment. She keeps on > saying: understanding, it is understanding that develops. Not: *we* > develop understanding. You see Nina, the thing with me is that I simply cannot believe that people do not seek benefits/results from the Dhamma. We are so deeply conditioned to do so - I just cannot believe that we are not, in some way, in it for ourselves. And our acquired identities (attabhavanapatilabho?) are so deeply rooted, they will have their way. So when AS again and again encourages awareness of present realities in daily life - a kind of awareness that is so rare, as we know, I think she is unwittingly setting up a tendency for people to try to hard for it. We (our attabhavanapatilabhos) *all* want something out of Dhamma. If we are focussing on the deep teachings, such as Abhidhamma, we will want to get something out of Abhdihamma. I just can't believe otherwise! So I get what I get in a more explicit way, from suttas dealing with avoiding evil deeds in order to increase the likelihood of a favourable destination after death, that sort of thing. I still am very interested in Abhidhamma, but for now I want it to be strictly theory for me, so I do not try to get too much out of it too soon. I like the recorded talk in which AS is talking with a man named Jack, I think - a Thai man. They go back and forth for a couple of minutes in a very nice way, talking about how people are conditioned to want to get too much, but don't have the panna for it, but they still want to get straight to satipatthana, which is the heart of the Buddha's teaching, therefore so attractive etc. I love that talk. But I just can't help feeling that AS somehow goes against that talk when she tells us again and again to develop awareness of realities, which sounds just like what she was warning about in that talk - trying to get to the heartwood too soon! There is always talk about patience here at DSG, but I can't help but suspect it is talking about patience on the surface but deeper at work is the need for results that *inevitably* drives the human mind! Do you remember in Japan the "tatemae" and "honne" duality? Tatemae is the official stated policy, honne is what people really feel in their hearts. I just can't help but suspect that there is tatemae and honne at work in folks who speak of patiently developing awareness of realities, rare moments of kusala, etc. Is this moreso the case with westerners, do we demand more results, possibly? I think Jack talked about that very eloquently in that talk, though he is a Thai. Maybe he spoke as a westernized Thai or something. Not to worry Nina. Obviously I am dealing with some kind of skepticism about the potential for people in this day and age to develop deep awareness (sati-sampajanna?) That might change, or not, we'll see. But I certainly appreciate the way AS explains the deep Dhamma theory in Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. The Abhidhamma is so beautiful even as a system of theory, even if one is not able to appreciate it as immediately relevant to a dull-panna'd worldling' daily life. Yes, I know, "is seeing relevant?" "is feeling relevant?" etc. Yes, they are relevant. Much of it is very "daily life", I know. Wow, I obviously have a bottled-up need to ramble on about Dhamma! That's great isn't it. What a wonderful group DSG is. I am always so great to have Dhamma friends like you. Metta, Phil #80904 From: "reverendaggacitto" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 3:01 am Subject: for alex/re: jhana meditation reverendagga... Hi Alex! If you read my post carefully you will see that i was stating that Jhana meditation was NOT a "blind cognitionless trance". i am glad that you concur! Nowhere did i state that signs or visions must PRECEDE jhana access. Did you read my follow up post? Using the pali Canon Suttas as a guide... there are those of us who have learned things from EXPIERIENCE are you more concerned with being "right" or are you more concerned with expieriencing Jhana Access? DID YOU READ MY FOLLOW UP POST? May the Buddas Deva and Angels bless All of you! bhikkhu aggacitto/reverend aggacitto #80905 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 3:19 am Subject: Re: Swimming analogy philofillet Hiagain Nina I realized that I didn't really address the following. > >You just do not understand > > A.S. We are not prodded to awareness of this moment. She keeps on > > saying: understanding, it is understanding that develops. Not: > *we* > > develop understanding. But if we read or hear her say, as we do,"sati can arise and be aware of present realities" again and again, and again and again and again, even if we know in theory that it is only sati that can do so, isn't there a deeply conditioned tendency to try to do it, which is of course *we* trying. So I contend that AS does, in effect, tell us to try to do it, though not intentionally. Again, I am probably just describing what went on for me and putting everyone in the same boat. I am assuming too much, as Tep used to say to me when I accused people who read suttas of being driven by greed and fear. I am always accusing people of being needy and fearful, of seeking comfort from Dhamma, but I just can't help but believe that that is what goes on a lot of the time! Most certainly does with me. No need to respond to this, Nina, honestly. Not much more you could say, you've been patient (truly!) on this point. You've got your hands full, as usual. Metta, Phil #80906 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 5:20 am Subject: Re: Anatta as a strategy scottduncan2 Dear Sarah, Just to clarify, regarding Atthasaalinii (p.p.222-223): "Jhaana is twofold: that which (views or) examines closely the object and that which examines closely the characteristic marks [aaramma.nupanijjhaana~n ca lakkha.nupanijjhaana.m]. Of these two, 'object-scrutinising' jhaana examines closely those devices [for self-hypnosis] as mental objects. Insight, the Path and Fruition are called 'characteristics-examining jhaana.' Of these three, insight is so called from its examining closely the characteristics of impermanence, etc. Because the work to be done by insight is accomplished through the Path, the Path is so called. And because Fruition examines closely the Truth of cessation, and possesses the characteristic of truth, it also is called 'characteristic-examining jhaana.' Of these two kinds of jhaana, the 'object-examining' mode is here intended. Hence, from the examining the object and extinguishing the opposing Hindrances, jhaana is to be thus understood." Scott: I'm pursuing the meaning of the above noted Pali terms. See the PTS PED entries below: "Upanijjhaana (nt.) [upa + nijjhaana1] meditation, reflection, consideration only in two phrases: aaramma.nupanijjhaana & lakkha.naupanijjhaana, with ref. to jhaana...Cp. nijjhaayana." "Nijjhaana1 (nt)...understanding, insight, perception, comprehension; favour, indulgence (=nijjhaapana), pleasure, delight..." Scott: Here this seems to suggest that a certain kind of thinking is related to jhaana, and likely not thinking that is like what I'm doing right now. I think (ha ha) that I'd like to turn to a look at Right Thinking in the next few days, and so, will do so. It does 'follow' on from Right View, which I looked at a few months ago. Vitakka and vicaara are thinking which accompany the early stages of jhaana. I'm interested in learning of the conditions which 'perpetuate' the arising of these dhammas. It seems one 'thinks' constantly. There must be kusala, akusala (and probably 'neutral') thinking. Sincerely, Scott. #80907 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 5:21 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 1, no 3. philofillet Hi Nina Shall we forget about what I was going on and on about in that other post and get to a question I have? > First: the anusayas, the latent tendencies, unwholesome inclinations > that lie dormant in each citta. Why do governments and people never > seem to learn from history and continue to make the same mistakes? > The answer is, partly, ignorance of the anusayas. Knowing one's > anusayas is very basic. We also have to develop the perfection of > truthfulness in knowing and understanding our anusayas. What is the relationship between the anusayas and the six hetu (roots of good and evil) that we are born with different tendencies in? For example, some people with strong lobha, little dosa, little wisdom and so in in various permutations. Is that anusayas? Thanks. Metta, Phil #80908 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 5:49 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 6 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 460. "Ki.m bhavagate abhinandi, tena kaayakalinaa asaarena; bhavata.nhaaya nirodhaa, anujaanaatha pabbajissaami. 461. "Buddhaana.m uppaado, vivajjito akkha.no kha.no laddho; siilaani brahmacariya.m, yaavajiiva.m na duuseyya.m. 462. "Eva.m bha.nati sumedhaa, maataapitaro 'na taava aahaara.m; aaharissa.m gaha.t.thaa, mara.navasa.m gataava hessaami'. 463. "Maataa dukkhitaa rodati pitaa ca; assaa sabbaso samabhihato; gha.tenti sa~n~naapetu.m, paasaadatale chamaapatita.m. 464. "U.t.thehi puttaka ki.m soci, tena dinnaasi vaara.navatimhi; raajaa aniikaratto, abhiruupo tassa tva.m dinnaa. 458. "What [have I to do] with existence, with delight, with this unsubstantial worst of bodies? For the sake of the cesation of craving for existence, pemit me. I shall go forth. 459. "There is arising of Buddhas. The inopportune moment has been avoided. The opportune moment has been seized. As long as life lasts, I would not infringe the rules of virtuous conduct and [the living of] the holy life." 460. Thus Sumedhaa spoke to her mother and father: "Meanwhile I shall not take food as a householder. [If I do not go forth,] I shall indeed have gone under the influence of death." 461. Pained, her mother lamented, and [with] her father, who was completely overwhelmed, they strove to remonstrate with her [as she lay] fallen to the ground on the roof of the palace. 462. "Stand up, child. What [do you want] with grieving? You are bestowed in Vaara.navatii. King Anikaratta, [who is] handsome, [is there]. You are bestowed upon him. RD: How can I take delight in many births, In this poor body, froth without a soul? *418 That I may put an utter end to thirst Again to be, suffer that I go forth. (458) Now is the Age of Buddhas! Gone the want Of opportunity! The moment's won! O let me never while I live misprize The precepts, nor withstand the holy life!' (459) Thus spake Sumedhaa, and again: 'Mother And father mine, never again will I As a laywoman break my fast and eat. Here will I sooner lay me down and die!' (460) Th' afflicted mother wept; the father, stunned With grief, strove to dissuade and comfort her Who prostrate lay upon the palace floor: - (461) 'Rise up, dear child. Why this unhappiness For thee? Thou art betrothed to go and reign In Vaara.navatii, the promised bride Of King Anikaratta, handsome youth. (462) *418 Kaayakalinaa asaarena. The rendering of the former obscure term is, perhaps, a trifle forced, but was chosen from the use of kali in Jaataka, v. 134 (= khela, spittle, froth), because of the juxtaposition of asaara = pithless, without essence (cf. Sa.my. Nik., iii. 140), in preference to the more usual association of kali with gambling. See ver. 501. .. to be continued, connie #80909 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 5:57 am Subject: Response to all the e-mails pannabahulo Dear DSG members, Thank you all for your responses to my e-mails both on this site and in my personal e-mail account. I can see that I am not alone but I do have an open mind on Dhamma issues. Today I was talking to my neighbour - a Thai monk who speaks very good English. He understands Ajan Sujin very well and tomorrow we will have a discussion. I am more than willing to study Abhidhamma if I can see that there is a way to apply it moment by moment.At this present time I can see no link between theory and practice but - judging by some of your replies - you obviously can. I hope that in the forthcoming Bangkok seminars we can give some time to this question of how to apply the Abhidhamma. Ajan sujin is curently in Chiang Mai; I wanted to visit her but unfortunately my leg infection means that I must rest and so cannot attend.It is getting better though so it should be cleared up by February. I hope to see as many DSG members as can attend in February, With metta and every blessing Pannabahulo #80910 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 6:26 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 2, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, We have to be truthful in order to understand our own accumulation of akusala. We should remember that the latent tendencies are very tenacious, and that they condition the arising of akusala citta again and again. The arising of akusala is unforeseeable and uncontrollable. Everybody would like to live in a world without wars, but one cannot change the world so long as one does not understand the real cause of akusala. So long as there is the latent tendency of ignorance it conditions the arising of akusala cittas. Citta is the source of good and bad deeds. We should be grateful to the Buddha for teaching us the real cause of akusala, for teaching us about the latent tendencies and showing how dangerous these tendencies are. In the following suttas the danger is shown of an undeveloped mind. When one neglects mental development, there are conditions for the arising of many kinds of akusala. We read in the “Gradual Sayings”, Book of the Ones (Ch III, § 1-4, translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel, 155-158): “No other thing do I know, O monks, that is so intractible as an undeveloped mind. An undeveloped mind is, indeed an intractible thing. No other thing do I know, O monks, that is so tractible as a developed mind. A developed mind is, indeed, a tractible thing... No other thing do I know, O monks, that brings so much suffering as an undeveloped and uncultivated mind. An undeveloped and uncultivated mind brings suffering, indeed. No other thing do I know, O monks, that brings so much happiness as a developed and cultivated mind. A developed and cultivated mind brings happiness indeed.” As wisdom develops latent tendencies can be eradicated stage by stage and this means that there will be an end to suffering. The Buddha said that an undeveloped mind brings suffering and a developed mind brings happiness. This is an exhortation not to delay the development of understanding of whatever dhamma appears. ******* Nina. #80911 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 6:41 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeking info on Nyanatiloka moellerdieter Hi, the only source ,which could provide additional information I can think of, is Hecker's book 'Der erste deutsche Bhikkhu' , probably only available in German . But I would suggest to contact -if not already done -Bhikkhu Bodhi who by his close association with Ven. Nyanaponika may give you some further leads. with Metta Dieter Morley Chalmers wrote: I've been asked by BPS (Buddhist Publication Society in Sri Lanka) to gather up more information about Nyanatiloka, the great teacher who came to British Ceylon in the first decade of the last century, took ordination, ... #80912 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 1, no 3. nilovg Hi Phil, Op 8-jan-2008, om 14:21 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > What is the relationship between the anusayas and the six hetu > (roots of good and evil) that we are born with different tendencies > in? > For example, some people with strong lobha, little dosa, little wisdom > and so in in various permutations. Is that anusayas? ------- N: The rebirth-consciousness is vipaakacitta, result of past kamma. In the human plane people may be born without hetus (in that case they are handicapped from the first moment), or with the beautiful roots of non-attachment and non-aversion, or with pa~n~naa as well. As to the akusala hetus, these do not accompany vipaakacitta, and thus not rebirth-consciousness. Even though one is born with pa~n~naa, there is still the latent tendency of ignorance, otherwise one would not be born. One is still in the cycle. Apart from ignorance, worldlings have all the other latent tendencies not yet eradicated. It depends on various conditions whether for example the latent tendency of aversion conditions at a given moment strong anger or a slight irritation. This differs from moment to moment. We can be sure we have all latent tendencies and these can condition all degrees of akusala citta. It is beyond our power to know all details of permutations and variations. The objects that are experienced are different, people one associates with are different and one may be inclined to develop understanding or be disinclined to this and this conditions the kusala or akusala that arises. Understanding condiitons more kusala. Many factors to be taken into account. I find your other post food for thought and will return to it later. Nina #80913 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 7:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) .. sakkayaditthi ... nilovg Hi Tep, Op 6-jan-2008, om 21:31 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > >Nina: We need patience (and courage) to accept: there is no person. > We are so used to thinking of our social life, the interrelationship > between humans. > > Tep: How do you suggest we do, or not do, in order to totally accept > that "there is no person"? --------- > N: I find that Sarah's quote of the Dispeller expresses what I feel > about it: on are all synonyms for understanding……………..it conforms to the > Truth of the Path and it conforms owing to conforming to the > highest meaning, nibbaana. And it accepts (khamati), bears, is able > to see all these reasons, thus it is > acceptance (khanti). ‘It sees’ is di.t.thi (‘view’)……….and in > particular, the things (dhamma) called the five aggregates on being > studied (nijjjhaayamaanaa) again and again in accordance with > impermanence, suffering and no self, accept (khamanti) that study > (nijjhaana); thus it > is dhammanijjhaanakkhanti (‘acceptance of study things’).” The five khandhas: all conditioned nama and rupa. Before the three characteristics can be realized, they have to be seen as mere dhammas, not a person. ------- > T: Further, after we have been successful in accepting that 'there > is no > person', will that acceptance be enough to abandon the 20 sakkaya- > ditthis in this life time, or is there other things to do (or not to > do) beyond that acceptance? ------- N: That acceptance is a synonym of understanding as we see from the quote above. Understanding has to perform its function. We do not have to worry: what shall we do or not do. There is no we who can choose. ------- > > T: The Buddha gave an answer as follows. > > "Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, > what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication(sankhara)? To > an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is > felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication > is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, > dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That > contact... That ignorance is inconstant (anicca), fabricated, > dependently co-arisen. > > "It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an > end to the effluents(asavas)." [The Pali words were added by me.] -------- > What is your thought about the above meditation on Paticcasamuppada > and the aniccanupassana to gain insight knowledges that abandon the > sakkaya-ditthis and other asavas? It seems that the insight knowledge > based on the 'anicca' characteristic is sufficient. Do you agree? ------- N: The text says: 'fabricated', it means: conditioned. Ignorance, cravinng, all defilements are conditioned dhammas, we did not create them. Insight has to know not only aniccaa, also anattaa and dukkha. But these three are connected. Again, there must be a beginning first before we rush to the three characteristics. Study with mindfulness nama and rupa that appear now, over and over again. I just heard on tape: a real obstacle is trying to know more than what is possible for us now. Thus, it is not helpful to reach out beyond the level of understanding there is at this moment. Nina. #80914 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 7:19 am Subject: mindfulness and concentration avalo1968 Hello DSG, Here are a couple of texts on concentration: "Unification of mind, friend Visakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration; the four right kinds of striving are the equipment of concentration; the repetition, development, and cultivation of these same states is the development of concentration therein." Majjhima Nikaya i, 301, sutta 44 (Bhikkhu Bodhi) "If one thing, O monks, is developed and cultivated, the body is calmed, the mind is calmed, discursive thoughts are quieted, and all wholesome states that partake of supreme knowledge reach fullness of development. What is that one thing? It is mindfulness directed to the body..." Anguttara Nikaya I, xxi (Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi) The question I want to ask the group is: Do the above texts indicate that mindfulness precedes concentration? Thanks, Robert A. #80915 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 7:24 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy truth_aerator Hi Sarah, > ... > Sarah: That was for others who might see it that way. I think that the aspects of the teachings we don't understand appear technical. For some, even discussions about seeing and visible object or namas and rupas seems technical. For most of us, the entire Patthana seems technical. Of course it wasn't/isn't for the very wise. > .... For some it may be too technical. However for others it may be more towards the "Parable of being shot with an Arrow" shelf. What is your Goal, to know intellectually (which can be dangerous, see the simile of the snake) or to have a DIRECT & LIBERATING experience? After all, there is a BIG difference between mere intellectual knowledge and ONE'S OWN KNOWLEDGE gained through N8P rather than counting someone else's cows. The strongest and the best Panna is gained through Samma-Samadhi (as well as the other 7 factors of N8P). One of the awesome features of the suttas is that they guide towards the LIBERATING EXPERIENCE. Lots of Metta, Alex #80916 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 7:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to all the e-mails nilovg Venerable Pannabahulo, Thank you for your kind post. Op 8-jan-2008, om 14:57 heeft pannabahulo het volgende geschreven: > I am more than willing to study Abhidhamma if I can see that there is > a way to apply it moment by moment.At this present time I can see no > link between theory and practice but - judging by some of your > replies - you obviously can. ------- N: I am sorry your leg is still not quite healed. This painfull feeling, this is Abhidhamma. It is daily life. It accompanies vipaakacitta, citta that is result of past kamma. When discussing Abhidhamma, perhaps we should start off little by little, one item at a time. In this way it may be clearer that it is all about daily life. With respect and best wishes for your health, Nina. #80917 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 10:37 am Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness and concentration nilovg Dear Robert, I would say that they develop together. There is also calm developing with it. Without any wish for it, as I feel it. It happens already because of conditions. But this does not mean that suddenly akusala citta arises, even of a strong degree. We still have all the latent tendencies. Nina. Op 8-jan-2008, om 16:19 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > Do the above texts indicate that mindfulness precedes concentration? #80918 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 10:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration nilovg Hi James, Op 8-jan-2008, om 2:05 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > N: Yes, the idea of calm first. I could never understand the point of > > this. Citta is so fast. One may plan to be calm, but who can direct > > citta? Anyway, if akusala does not arise one does not know it and it > > cannot be eradicated, ever. > > J: This is really crazy thinking. First, you are saying that jhana is > impossible because of anatta (which you should know is patently > false). Second, you are saying that the mind must be akusala in order > to be kusala. -------- N: This must seem crazy to you. I try to clarify more. One may think that there are good conditions for kusala, such as reading suttas, discussing Dhamma, reflecting on Dhamma, all that is included in bhaavanaa. But then unexpectedly strong akusala arises. We should be glad. Why? We can learn from this. It reminds us that there are still the latentent tendencies not eradicated. Also, we have to opportunity to learn its characteristic. Like the conceit Howard and I were writing about. It is so good to learn, you know. To understand it as just a dhamma, not belonging to me. It is real, it is dhamma. All realities of daily life, also akusala should be the object of understanding. This is in the suttas too. As to jhana, yes this is anatta. When the right condiitons are there it can arise. And so many, many conditions are needed. --------- > J: If akusala does not arise, then the person is an > arahant and the task is done. Jhana alone doesn't stop akusala from > arising, only insight does that. ------- N: Very well said. ---------- James in his other post: What I see presented in this group is the idea that ANYONE who practices meditation is doing something wrong. I have seen posts written to monks telling them that they shouldn't be practicing meditation either! ------ N: First we have to define meditation. There are meditations for every occasion such as the recollection of the Buddha. When we understand what is kusala and what is akusala it is thanks to his teaching and we can think of him with gratefulness. When meditation is bhaavanaa it is kusala. But one can take the wrong one, with akusala citta, for the right one. Possible? Nina. Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (30) #80919 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy nilovg Hi James, Op 8-jan-2008, om 1:40 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > I have the Visuddhimagga and it states that dry insight workers have > achieved the first jhana but it isn't stable. ------- N: Could you provide the text, please? I have the footnote 3, on p. 2, from the tiika. As I understood: momentary concentration is necessary. But not jhana. Nina. #80920 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration nilovg Hi Howard, you took great trouble and patience to explain again to me the need for calm. I appreciate your efforts. Op 7-jan-2008, om 23:43 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, I really don't understand why you could never understand this. A > mind that is turbulent can't "see" clearly. So, calm is needed. > Moreover, as > for directing citta, the mind is calmed by the regular practice of > sila and by > the regular practice of meditation, most especially jhana. -------- N: Calm, passaddhi is a cetasika. What does this mean? It cannot be told to arise and nobody creates it. It arises with kusala citta. When kusala citta arises there is confidence, calm, sati, hiri, ottappa. When we study suttas, the Abhidhamma, discuss dhamma as we do now, can there not be kusala citta with calm? There is siila, when we show respect to the other person while discussing dhamma, when we are polite. I mean being polite because one means it, not just an outward show. That is the practice of sila now, in daily life. You speak of the regular practice of sila and I understand this to be: now, right now. For seeing things clearly it has to be pa~n~naa. And as pa~n~naa develops there will be more calm, but no need to seek after it. ------- > H: It isn't a matter > of "Let me now make my mind be calm," though there are means even > for that > to some extent, but is a matter of cultivating over a period of time a > relatively lasting mental calmness. -------- N: Depending on the right conditions. ------- > H: As for the speed of citta, that is irrelevant: > The speed of change of cittas and cetasikas is fast compared to the > speed of > change of rupas, but mind keeps pace with mind. It is not like an > observer > standing back and looking at a quickly moving stream of screen > images; the > observing is part of the stream itself. Though mindstates that are > to be examined > are fast moving, so is the mind that does the examining, for they > all are > parts of the very same mindstream. > ---------------------------------------------------------- > N: Speed of cittas: Cittas arise because of their own conditions, > so fast. Unexpectedly. Conditioned by the latent tendencies. That > is why I said: difficult to plan calm, think of the speed of cittas > that change all the time. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > If one requires extremes, nothing makes sense. Total lack of calm > precludes investigation of that very turbulence itself and of > everything else, and > with total presence of calm, there is no turbulence to examine at > all. So > countenancing only one extreme or the other makes insight into > mental upset an > impossibility. That is the error of extremes. > --- N: To say it bluntly: calm, but not too much of it. Nina. #80921 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 1:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness and concentration avalo1968 Hello Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Robert, > I would say that they develop together. There is also calm developing > with it. Without any wish for it, as I feel it. It happens already > because of conditions. But this does not mean that suddenly akusala > citta arises, even of a strong degree. We still have all the latent > tendencies. > Nina. I don't know. The texts I cited seem to indicate fairly clearly that the four foundations of mindfulness and mindfulness of the body are supports for the development of concentration. That is not to say these are the only ways concentration can be developed, but this seems to be pretty clear guidance of at least one method concentration can be cultivated. Thanks, Robert A. #80922 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 4:39 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 8-jan-2008, om 1:40 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > I have the Visuddhimagga and it states that dry insight workers have > > achieved the first jhana but it isn't stable. > ------- > N: Could you provide the text, please? > I have the footnote 3, on p. 2, from the tiika. As I understood: > momentary concentration is necessary. But not jhana. > Nina. The dry insight worker achieves more than just momentary concentration: From Chapter XXI DESCRIPTION OF PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION OF THE WAY 111. WHAT GOVERNS THE DIFFERENCE IN THE NOBLE PATH'S ENLIGHTENENT FACTORS, ETC. 112. To deal with these [three theories] in order: According to governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight (dry-insight) worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the first jhana as the basis for insight, ARE THE PATHS OF THE FIRST JHANA ONLY. James: This section of the Vism. could be easily misread if one doesn't take into account the entire sentence. Here is what the basics of this sentence reads: PATHS OF THE FIRST JHANA ONLY: 1. Bare-Insight worker (dry-insight) 2. Jhana attainer who doesn't use jhana for insight 3. Jhana attainer who uses jhana for insight but comprehends unrelated formations Therefore, according to the Vism., even a "dry-insight worker" has achieved at least the first jhana. Let me continue with 112. text: In each case there are seven enlightenment factors, eight path factors, and five jhana factors. For while their preliminary insight can be accompanied by joy and it can be accompanied by equanimity, when their insight reaches the state of equanimity about formations at the time of emergence it is accompanied by joy. James: The text then goes on to describe other types of arahants who have achieved higher jhanas. According to the Vism., there isn't a single type of arahant who hasn't achieved at least the first jhana. Therefore, I would conclude that jhana is necessary for enlightenment. Metta, James #80923 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 4:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 8-jan-2008, om 2:05 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > N: Yes, the idea of calm first. I could never understand the point of > > > this. Citta is so fast. One may plan to be calm, but who can direct > > > citta? Anyway, if akusala does not arise one does not know it and it > > > cannot be eradicated, ever. > > > > J: This is really crazy thinking. First, you are saying that jhana is > > impossible because of anatta (which you should know is patently > > false). Second, you are saying that the mind must be akusala in order > > to be kusala. > -------- > N: This must seem crazy to you. I try to clarify more. One may think > that there are good conditions for kusala, such as reading suttas, > discussing Dhamma, reflecting on Dhamma, all that is included in > bhaavanaa. But then unexpectedly strong akusala arises. We should be > glad. Why? We can learn from this. It reminds us that there are still > the latentent tendencies not eradicated. James: This seems like some kind of weird Pollyanna philosophy. If I am reading the posts on DSG and anger arises within my mind (a frequent happening, btw ;-)) that is not a reason for me to be glad or to appreciate that anger. The Buddha said that anyone who feels anger is not practicing his teaching. However, if that anger arises and I calm my mind down so that I don't jot off a scathing post, then that is a reason to feel gladness. If I read a post by a member filled with ridiculous comments, and I don't feel anger- only compassion and sympathy, then that is a reason to feel gladness. Akusala mind states are no reason to celebrate. Also, we have to opportunity > to learn its characteristic. Like the conceit Howard and I were > writing about. It is so good to learn, you know. To understand it as > just a dhamma, not belonging to me. It is real, it is dhamma. All > realities of daily life, also akusala should be the object of > understanding. This is in the suttas too. James: The fact that conceit arises is not a reason to feel gladness. The fact that you recognized the conceit is a reason to feel gladness. There is an important difference between those two. > As to jhana, yes this is anatta. When the right condiitons are there > it can arise. And so many, many conditions are needed. James: I agree. Sarah recently wrote that all one needs is understanding for jhana to arise, but I don't agree with that. There are many conditions necessary for jhana (but mundane concentration prior to jhana is also helpful). > --------- > > > J: If akusala does not arise, then the person is an > > arahant and the task is done. Jhana alone doesn't stop akusala from > > arising, only insight does that. > ------- > N: Very well said. > ---------- > James in his other post: What I see presented in this group is the > idea that ANYONE > who practices meditation is doing something wrong. I have seen posts > written to monks telling them that they shouldn't be practicing > meditation either! > ------ > N: First we have to define meditation. James: What is there to define? I am speaking of Buddhist meditation as detailed in the Vism. The meditation that was taught by the Buddha. There are meditations for > every occasion such as the recollection of the Buddha. James: I am not sure what you mean "for every occasion". There are meditations for certain personalities and mind states, but not "for every occasion". This again sounds like some kind of Pollyanna philosophy. When we > understand what is kusala and what is akusala it is thanks to his > teaching and we can think of him with gratefulness. James: Right, but that "thinking" is highly concentrated, done in seclusion, and leads to access concentration in order to be classified as meditation. Otherwise it is just thinking. > When meditation is bhaavanaa it is kusala. But one can take the wrong > one, with akusala citta, for the right one. Possible? James: Maybe, but so what? Are you also afraid of drowning like Sarah is? ;-)) > Nina. > Metta, James #80924 From: "gazita2002" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 5:29 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration gazita2002 Dear Sukin, nice photo. Looking forward to joining you all soon, in about 2 weeks. patience, courage and good cheer,. azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinder" wrote: > > Dear Nina, > > I have just uploaded a photo to the DSG Meeting section, of last > Saturday's discussions at Num's house. Not present were Ivan and Elle > who went to Chiang Rai on that same day. > > Sukin #80925 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 5:37 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration sukinderpal Hi Ann, Glad that you liked it. :-) I'm sure however that this is partly because you know what it is like to be in such a situation, i.e. to be having discussions with A. Sujin. It's nice to see that you are following the discussions here on DSG, this being the best alternative and second best thing. ;-) Hope that you will have more opportunities to come to Bangkok and take part in the live discussions, after all what better thing is there to do!? Please give my regards and best wishes to Glen. Metta, Sukin glenjohnann wrote: > > THanks, Sukin, lovely to see everyone. > > Ann > #80926 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness and concentration buddhistmedi... Hi Robert A. and Nina, - The conversation below is very interesting. > > > > Dear Robert, > > I would say that they develop together. There is also calm developing with it. Without any wish for it, as I feel it. It happens already because of conditions. But this does not mean that suddenly akusala citta arises, even of a strong degree. We still have all the latent tendencies. > > Nina. > > I don't know. The texts I cited seem to indicate fairly clearly that the four foundations of mindfulness and mindfulness of the body are supports for the development of concentration. That is not to say these are the only ways concentration can be developed, but this seems to be pretty clear guidance of at least one method concentration can be cultivated. > > Thanks, > > Robert A. > ............ T: Please allow me to throw in a comment. MN i, 301, 44 states "the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration". Here "basis" comes from the Pali word 'nimitta'. I have seen another translation of nimitta as "signs and characteristics", for example in Ahara Sutta (SN 46.51) translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. "And what is the food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth and increase of sensual desire once it has arisen? There are the signs and characteristics (nimitta) of beauty. To foster inappropriate attention to it: This is the food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth and increase of sensual desire once it has arisen." [SN 46.51] Another translator (I.B. Horner) translated nimitta as "general appearance". [See MN 125: Dantabhumi Sutta] Therefore, we may read : "the four foundations of mindfulness are the signs and characteristics of concentration", or "the four foundations of mindfulness are general appearance of concentration". By these alternatives it is not necessary that the four foundations of mindfulness have to precede concentration. They may be developed together, like Nina said. Thanks. Tep === #80927 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 6:10 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness and concentration avalo1968 Hello Tep, Nice to see you again. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > T: Please allow me to throw in a comment. > > MN i, 301, 44 states "the four foundations of mindfulness are the > basis of concentration". Here "basis" comes from the Pali > word 'nimitta'. I have seen another translation of nimitta as "signs > and characteristics", for example in Ahara Sutta (SN 46.51) > translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > > "And what is the food for the arising of unarisen sensual desire, or > for the growth and increase of sensual desire once it has arisen? > There are the signs and characteristics (nimitta) of beauty. To > foster inappropriate attention to it: This is the food for the > arising of unarisen sensual desire, or for the growth and increase of > sensual desire once it has arisen." [SN 46.51] > > Another translator (I.B. Horner) translated nimitta as "general > appearance". [See MN 125: Dantabhumi Sutta] > > Therefore, we may read : "the four foundations of mindfulness are > the signs and characteristics of concentration", or "the four > foundations of mindfulness are general appearance of concentration". > By these alternatives it is not necessary that the four foundations > of mindfulness have to precede concentration. They may be developed > together, like Nina said. > > Thanks. > > > Tep > === > The original quote from sutta 44: "Unification of mind, friend Visakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration; the four right kinds of striving are the equipment of concentration; ***the repetition, development, and cultivation of these same states is the development of concentration therein.****" This seems to say fairly clearly that the development of the for foundations of mindfulness and the four right efforts is the development of concentration, which to me implies a cause and effect. The second quote I cited: "If one thing, O monks, is developed and cultivated, the body is calmed, the mind is calmed, discursive thoughts are quieted, and all wholesome states that partake of supreme knowledge reach fullness of development. What is that one thing? It is mindfulness directed to the body..." seems to do so as well. Again, this is not to say that these are the only ways to develop concentration, but not to make things more complicated than they need to be, doesn't it sound like the practicing the four foundations of mindfulness, particularly mindfulness of the body, is a useful way to develop concentration? Thanks, Robert A. #80928 From: Sukinder Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 6:15 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration sukinderpal Hi Azita, We probably sat down to write at the same time.:-) Of course there is much lobha involved in any decision on our parts to come to these discussions. But surely there is also much kusala chanda motivated by seeing the value of Dhamma and hence the need to hear it being explained in ways whereby things become a little clearer each time. This goes together with an increased understanding of how deep and hard to see the Dhamma is and how really ignorant we are and hence having a better estimate of where we are at, namely being ones who still need to hear much, much more. This contrasts with the common understanding amongst the rest of the Buddhist world where listening / study is downplayed and so called 'meditation' is encouraged. This latter seems to me, is due in part to not really appreciating the profundity of the Dhamma and failing to see where really one is at. And of course I'm not encouraging self-view or mana here, the correct estimate can after all come only with an increased understanding of there being only dhammas, no 'self' anywhere. I'm a little surprised to see that you will be here this month having thought that you changed plans and would come instead in April to coincide with Nina's birthday..? I look forward to seeing you. Metta, Sukin gazita2002 wrote: > > Dear Sukin, > > nice photo. Looking forward to joining you all soon, in about 2 > weeks. > > patience, courage and good cheer,. > azita > #80929 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 7:44 pm Subject: Re: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) .. sakkayaditthi ... buddhistmedi... Hi Nina (and Sarah), - Thank you for referring to Sarah's quote of the Dispeller on 'conformable acceptance' (anulomakhanti). In the Patisambhidamagga book (hard cover, translated by Nanamoli Bhikkhu), Treatise 29, On Insight, page 401, anulomakhanti is elaborated. But the translator used "choice in conformity" rather than "conformable acceptance". I am typing this Patis passage below. (The Pali words in parentheses are my insertion.) "Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu sees any formation as permanent it is not possible that he shall make a choice in conformity with actuality (sacca), and without making a choice in conformity with actuality it is not possible that he shall enter upon the certainty of rightness (samattaniyama), and without entering upon the certainty of rightness it is not possible he shall realize the fruit of stream-entry or the fruit of once-return or the fruit of non-return or the fruit of arahantship. ..." >Nina: The five khandhas: all conditioned nama and rupa. Before the three characteristics can be realized, they have to be seen as mere dhammas, not a person. T: Isn't it the other way around, i.e. first the three characteristcs are realized, then the five khandhas are seen as mere dhammas, not a person? I have no problem seeing that the khandhas are conditioned nama & rupa, although I am not yet able to see them as anatta. I also see from the above Patis passage that conforming with the truth(sacca) follows seeing the khandhas as impermanent. --------- >N: That acceptance is a synonym of understanding as we see from the quote above. Understanding has to perform its function. We do not have to worry: what shall we do or not do. There is no we who can choose. T: If my understanding as given above is correct, i.e. realizing impermanence of the khandhas conduces the understanding that there are only the dhammas, not a person, then I would agree with you that such understanding "performs its function". --------- >N: Insight has to know not only aniccaa, also anattaa and dukkha. But these three are connected. Again, there must be a beginning first before we rush to the three characteristics. Study with mindfulness nama and rupa that appear now, over and over again. I just heard on tape: a real obstacle is trying to know more than what is possible for us now. Thus, it is not helpful to reach out beyond the level of understanding there is at this moment. T: I almost agree. I think one should contemplate nama & rupa that arise and pass away now so that their anicca characteristic is realized. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Tep, > Op 6-jan-2008, om 21:31 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > > > >Nina: We need patience (and courage) to accept: there is no person. > > We are so used to thinking of our social life, the interrelationship > > between humans. #80930 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 8:02 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness and concentration buddhistmedi... Hi Robert, - It was my pleasure. Robert A. : The original quote from sutta 44: "Unification of mind, friend Visakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration; the four right kinds of striving are the equipment of concentration; ***the repetition, development, and cultivation of these same states is the development of concentration therein.****" This seems to say fairly clearly that the development of the for foundations of mindfulness and the four right efforts is the development of concentration, which to me implies a cause and effect. The second quote I cited: "If one thing, O monks, is developed and cultivated, the body is calmed, the mind is calmed, discursive thoughts are quieted, and all wholesome states that partake of supreme knowledge reach fullness of development. What is that one thing? It is mindfulness directed to the body..." seems to do so as well. Again, this is not to say that these are the only ways to develop concentration, but not to make things more complicated than they need to be, doesn't it sound like the practicing the four foundations of mindfulness, particularly mindfulness of the body, is a useful way to develop concentration. ............ T: No disagreement! Yes, what you said is correct, i.e. "mindfulness of the body, is a useful way to develop concentration". But what I wrote earlier (with no intention to complicate the issue) is about the meanings of 'nimitta' which is the original Pali in sutta 44 for "basis". Thanks. Tep === #80931 From: "Robert" Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 9:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness and concentration avalo1968 Hello Tep, If the translation of 'basis' is 'nimitta', does this mean that the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness leads to the arising of the nimitta? Thanks, Robert A. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > > T: No disagreement! Yes, what you said is correct, i.e. "mindfulness > of the body, is a useful way to develop concentration". But what I > wrote earlier (with no intention to complicate the issue) is about > the meanings of 'nimitta' which is the original Pali in sutta 44 > for "basis". > #80932 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 10:16 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness and concentration sarahprocter... Hi Robert A & Tep, May I butt in? We were discussing this same difficult passage before. --- Robert wrote: > If the translation of 'basis' is 'nimitta', does this mean that the > practice > of the four foundations of mindfulness leads to the arising of the > nimitta? ... S: The passage is talking about satipatthana and samadhi in the context of the 8fold Path. So, as I understand, satipatthana leads to the understanding of what samaadhinimitta is. When there is the developed understanding of the arising and falling away of dhammas (at the third stage of tender insight), it's clear what realities are and what nimittas of conditioned dhammas are and how all dhammas (except nibbana) have a nimitta. Here the text is talking about samadhi, so it's samadhinimitta which is made clear. If the text were talking about any other dhamma, it would be the same. The development of satipatthana clarifies the nature of all dhammas. Any comments? Metta, Sarah ======== #80933 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:13 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration sarahprocter... Hi Sukin, --- Sukinder wrote: > Of course there is much lobha involved in any decision on our parts to > come to these discussions. But surely there is also much kusala chanda > motivated by seeing the value of Dhamma and hence the need to hear it > being explained in ways whereby things become a little clearer each > time. This goes together with an increased understanding of how deep > and hard to see the Dhamma is and how really ignorant we are and hence > having a better estimate of where we are at, namely being ones who still > need to hear much, much more. ... S: Nicely put. Thx for the pic from last Sat. Any particular topics raised? You wrote this to Azita: > I'm a little surprised to see that you will be here this month having > thought that you changed plans and would come instead in April to > coincide with Nina's birthday..? ... S: She has v.limited computer access, so I'll just mention that I believe she's coming as planned, staying (if she can) for the Feb discussions and staying on for the April discussions around Nina's birthday too, probably going up country in between. (She also mentioned that Jill J. is planning to come in Feb., so should be a lively group.) Metta, Sarah ========= #80934 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:43 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to all the e-mails sarahprocter... Dear Ven Pannabahulo, --- pannabahulo wrote: > Thank you all for your responses to my e-mails both on this site and > in my personal e-mail account. > I can see that I am not alone but I do have an open mind on Dhamma > issues. .... S: Certainly many friends here share similar ideas to the ones you've expressed and have the same concerns. I do hope those who've expressed them off-list may share theme here for us all to consider (and discuss) further. On your last visit to Bangkok (when we met you), we particularly appreciated and commented on your careful listening and further consideration, so I know you do have an open mind on these aspects of the Dhamma. ... > Today I was talking to my neighbour - a Thai monk who speaks very > good English. He understands Ajan Sujin very well and tomorrow we > will have a discussion. > I am more than willing to study Abhidhamma if I can see that there is > a way to apply it moment by moment.At this present time I can see no > link between theory and practice but - judging by some of your > replies - you obviously can. ... S: If you are able to summarise your discussion with the Thai monk, that would be interesting. Yes, I think the sticking points are what you refer to as the 'apply it from moment to moment' and the 'practice'. I think this is similar to the concerns that Robert A has eloquently raised as well. Jon wrote this reply: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/79907 "...'practice' as used in the texts means the actual arising of insight/understanding, rather than the doing of something that is merely preparatory to the 'real thing'." As I see it, when there is understanding of a dhamma appearing now (no matter whether it be at the level of pariyatti or patipatti), there is no idea of 'applying' anything or concern about a gap between theory and practice. The understanding (the bhaavanaa) is the practice. As Ken H recently put it: "Right understanding and right practice are one and the same." [ More in 'Useful Posts' under 'Practice & Practising'] .. > I hope that in the forthcoming Bangkok seminars we can give some time > to this question of how to apply the Abhidhamma. ... S: I think it'll be helpful for everyone present if you raise any of your conerns or questions. I really hope your leg infection continues to heal well and won't cause difficulty with your travels. There were several further points for discussion from your helpful clarifications and further comments to me in %80682. I don't wish to burden you, so for now, let me ask about one point only and if we have time, we can pick up on others too. .... >>S:You refer to vipassana insight. There can never be any vipassana insight while we have the idea of excluding certain states of mind (i.e lobha, dosa, moha )or have the idea of any selection or predominant dhammas to be known.<< >P: I think you miss the point here. Clearly, if the mind is filled with defilement then it lacks the purity to see clearly; it's like looking at reality through a fog or a distorted lens. The use of jhana in vipassana is precisely to cure that problem.< .... S: I agree that at the moments when panna arises, there cannot be any lobha, dosa or moha. However, what I meant was that any such states can be objects of understanding and awareness when they appear. At such moments, there's no 'fog or distorted lens' and you express it so well. If your leg permits (!), would you kindly clarify what you mean by 'the use of jhana in vipassana'. Btw, I sincerely apologise if any of my detailed comments appeared to be misunderstanding or critisizing Sayadaw U Tejiniya in any way. Of course this wasn't my intention in the slightest and I appreciated your sharing the interesting article with your further elaborations. I'm just interested in discussing the Dhamma points. I'm sure he's a very fine bhikkhu and a pleasure to spend time with/listen to as you've found. I also appreciate that he emphasises the importance of practice in daily life, at this moment as you stress. Metta, Sarah ======= #80935 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:49 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] photo: Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration nilovg Ddear Sukin, Thank you, very nice. I just looked at it last night. Nina. Sukin: > I have just uploaded a photo to the DSG Meeting section, of last > > Saturday's discussions at Num's house. #80936 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 8, 2008 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeking info on Nyanatiloka sarahprocter... Dear Morley & Dieter, Firstly, thank you for sharing the request here, Morley. Also, welcome to DSG! If you'd care to introduce yourself a little here and tell us where you live, that would be nice. Dieter, like Jon, I thought of you immediately too. --- Dieter Möller wrote: > the only source ,which could provide additional information I can think > of, is Hecker's book 'Der erste deutsche Bhikkhu' , probably only > available in German . ... S: In case they don't have access to this book (or a translation), can you briefly mention whether it has much detail on the period particularly requested, i.e 1939 - 1957. Also, does it or anything else in German give any assessment of Nyantiloka's life and so on as requested? I seem to remember there was some special publication about Nyantiloka a few years ago, published by BPS. Of course, they have that. Best wishes with your research, Morley. Please let us know what you find or give us a link when it's completed. We probably refer to Nyantiloka's dictionary (or some other works) here every day! Metta, Sarah ======== #80937 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 12:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Response to all the e-mails sarahprocter... Dear Ven Pannabahulo & all, On theory and practice, I think these comments of A.Sujin's from a trip to India which Nina summarised (#79472)are helpful: >N:....some points stressed by Acharn Sujin and often raised by others. We may know in theory that seeing sees what is visible, visible object, but it seems that we see people all the time. We usually think of concepts with ignorance and clinging, we are totally absorbed in them. Only through the development of direct awareness of realities can we prove that what the Buddha taught about the phenomena of our life is the truth. However, we need a firm foundation knowledge of paramattha dhammas so that we can verify the truth of these phenomena. Acharn Sujin stressed many times that there are three levels of the understanding of the Dhamma: the level of study, pariyatti, the level of practice, patipatti and the level of direct realization of the truth, paìivedha. Pariyatti is the firm foundation knowledge that can be a condition for patipatti, the practice or development of direct understanding. If we only think about it that citta, cetasika and rúpa are impermanent and that they arise and fall away, it is theoretical understanding that stems from listening to the teachings. Through the development of satipatthåna, which is the practice, the truth of what the Buddha taught can be directly realized. The aim of the study of the teachings should be direct understanding of the dhammas appearing at this moment. We should understand what satipatthåna is and what the objects of satipatthana are. Satipatthåna is the development of insight, vipassanå, the direct understanding of all realities of our life, of citta, cetasika (mental factors arising with the citta) and rúpa. Only one citta at a time arises and experiences one object. It seems that we see and hear at the same time, but when visible object is experienced, sound cannot be experienced at the same time.< ... S: I think that we all agree that "The aim of the study of the teachings should be direct understanding of the dhammas appearing at this moment", as A.Sujin stresses above. Satipatthana is the practice and there can be practice now if there's clear understanding of the dhammas appearing now, such as visible object. When there's awareness of visible object, there's no word, no theory - just that reality which appears as it is. Metta, Sarah ======== #80938 From: "jonoabb" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 1:04 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy jonoabb Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, Jon - ... > Yes, the other factors are crucial. They are those mentioned in the suttas: > hearing the teachings and reflecting on what has been heard, with the > understanding that it relates to the present moment. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > So, that's it, then? Hearing and thinking over? > What of guarding the senses (the four right efforts)? What of > intentionally being mindful whenever possible? What of cultivating the jhanas? (Hearing > about them and thinking them will NEVER in themselves cultivate the jhanas. > You do know that, don't you, Jon?) > Jon, it seem to me that you are ignoring much of what the Buddha taught. Not at all. When there is mindfulness there is the guarding of the senses and there is also (one or more of) the four right efforts. These are aspects of the arising of mindfulness. As regards "intentionally being mindful whenever possible", there is no mention of this in the texts. The mindfulness explained in the Satipatthana Sutta is not something that can be *intentionally done*. As regards the (mundane) jhanas, I do not consider their development to be part of satipatthana, so whether or not I have an interest in this, I would not bring it in to a discussion on the path. But I can assure you that I do not ignore any part of what the Buddha taught. It's all worth knowing more about! > > Also, it is not only wisdom that is cultivated by meditation, but also a > > mind that is calm and collected. All the path factors, many also jhana > > factors as well, require cultivation. To say that they come about by > accumulation > > of those very same factors, and so on, and so on ... is to say nothing! > > Not sure why you say this. Sounds quite OK to me (except that I would say > the *rearising* of those very same factors; that's why they're called > "accumulations"!). What's the deficiency you see here? > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > You spoke only of cultivating wisdom. > ----------------------------------------------------- To my understanding, all kusala qualities are developed by the arising of the very same kusala factors. Is this not how you see it? > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Jon, your dismissing of intentional action (aka kamma) is simply amazing > to me. It is a centerpiece of the dhamma. > ---------------------------------------------- I am not dismissing kamma. But kamma is not the same as the conventional term "intentional action". > Secondly, how could a mental activity that is not itself one of the kinds of > kusala lead to more kusala? > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What unwholesome actions was I suggesting? The four right efforts? > - - - - - - - In a recent post you defined meditation as intentional activity that gave rise to sila, samadhi and panna. Well, if it gives rise to, in the sense of preceding, sila, samadhi and panna, then obviously it could not itself be any of those. > "And what, monks, is right effort? > [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of > evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. ... > [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not > yet arisen. ... This, monks, is called right effort." > â€â€? _SN 45.8_ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) > - - - - - - - - > Please note the phrases "generates desire," "endeavors," "exerts his > intent". OK, let's look at [iii]: [iii] "[There is the case where a monk] generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. I think you read this an instruction for how to "have" right effort. Something like: First, you should generate desire for kusala; if this is done well enough and for long enough then kusala will follow. I don't think the passage should be read like that at all. I think it describes a particular situation ("There is the case where ...), namely, where right effort is arising in a person. At that moment the person has generated desire for the arising of kusala. Kusala cannot be "made" to arise. Sorry to have to disagree! Jon #80939 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 1:16 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 2, no 3. philofillet Hi Nina and all >The arising of akusala is unforeseeable and uncontrollable. Yes, but let's remember that its prevalence is greatly reduced, dramatically reduced for the worldling who is responsive to the Dhamma. I'm sure we all have stories about how the Dhamma has done that for us. (speaking conventionally.) It's my opinion that if we don't have such stories, we are approaching the Dhamma in a way that prevents us from receiving the Buddha's message of liberation from suffering. (Unless we were born with very wholesome tendencies to begin with, of course.) I'd like to say something about a topic which interests me - this idea that it is foolish to aim for reducing transgression if there is not penetrative understanding of dhammas (esp. anatta) because latent tendencies will crop up and lay it all to waste. Just let me ramble on a bit. I don't know if it will be clear what I want to say. The fact that latent tendencies remain and can crop up, will crop up, in this lifetime or future lifetimes is often mentioned by some people to question the value of being encouraged by the reduction of transgression, but why? There is no reason to fear this cropping up, because it is cropping up in a new context, its impact is diluted by the new context. For example, I have seen the number of violent explosions of temper reduced dramatically- only one in all of last year. That one explosion was a doozy, but it did not take away from the fact that it occured in the context of much,much,much more patience and harmlessness. Nobody can take away the benefits of newly conditioned patterns of behaviour in body, speech and mind. Conditioned by hearing the Dhamma and applying it, these patterns gain momentum, are gradually less and less about self-interest, they are established in a conditioned way. And the inevitable occasional arising of previously conditioned habits does not matter enough to lay things to waste, because the impact of this arising is diluted by being in the context of new patterns. Something like that. En bref, I don't doubt that my latent tendencies, past behaviour patterns will have their say again, but I don't fear that. When they do, as they did once last year, it will be a reminder of anatta, and such reminders are good. It will also be a reminder of the new context in which they are appearing, a mindstream where there is so much less unwholesomeness than there was before, thanks to the Buddha's teaching. Just something I've been thinking about. I don't think I could discuss it much further than this. Metta, Phil #80940 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 1:33 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 2, no 3. philofillet Hi again > I'd like to say something about a topic which interests me - this > idea that it is foolish to aim for reducing transgression if there is > not penetrative understanding of dhammas (esp. anatta) because latent > tendencies will crop up and lay it all to waste. Just to add that I'm not saying that I think the point of the Buddha's teaching is to reduce transgression. Of course not. But I personally think being able to point - even with pride - to a reduction of transgression is not a bad place for the worldling to begin. And the Buddha teaches to householders in this way when they speak to him of fear of death - if they have made a refuge of good deeds, they have nothing to fear etc. BTW I addressed the previous post to you, Nina, but wasn't aimed at you in particular. Metta, Phil #80941 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 2:16 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeking info on Nyanatiloka nilovg Dear Dieter and Sarah, on our Pali list there is a lot of info by Lennert Lopin. Nina. Op 9-jan-2008, om 8:53 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > Dieter Möller wrote: > > > the only source ,which could provide additional information I can > think > > of, is Hecker's book 'Der erste deutsche Bhikkhu' , probably only > > available in German . -------- Lennart: Especially if you look up the books of Hellmuth Hecker, you will find all the details you were looking for. Maybe someone could make an English Wikipedia entry sooner or later.. - Hecker, Hellmuth (Hrsg.): *Der erste deutsche Bhikkhu*: das bewegte Leben des Ehrwürdigen Nyânatiloka (1878-1957) und seine Schüler. Konstanz: Universität, 1995 ISBN 978-3-931095-67-3 - Hecker, Hellmuth : *Lebensbilder deutscher Buddhisten.* Ein bio-bibliographisches Handbuch. Band I: Die Gründer. Konstanz, 1990, 2. verb. Aufl. Verlag Beyerlein- Steinschulte, Stammbach ISBN 978-3-931095-57-4 #80942 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 5:36 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 7 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 465. "Aggamahesii bhavissasi, anikarattassa raajino bhariyaa; siilaani brahmacariya.m, pabbajjaa dukkaraa puttaka. 466. "Rajje aa.naa dhanamissariya.m, bhogaa sukhaa daharikaasi; bhu~njaahi kaamabhoge, vaareyya.m hotu te putta. 467. "Atha ne bha.nati sumedhaa, maa edisikaani bhavagatamasaara.m; pabbajjaa vaa hohiti, mara.na.m vaa me na ceva vaareyya.m. 468. "Kimiva puutikaayamasuci.m, savanagandha.m bhayaanaka.m ku.napa.m; abhisa.mviseyya.m bhasta.m, asaki.m paggharita.m asucipu.n.na.m. 469. "Kimiva taha.m jaanantii, vikuulaka.m ma.msaso.nitupalitta.m; kimikulalaya.m saku.nabhatta.m, ka.levara.m kissa diyatiiti. 463. "You will be the chief queen, the wife of King Anikaratta. The rules of virtuous conduct, the living of the holy life, [and] going forth are difficult to perform, child. 464. "In kingship, there is authority, wealth, power, happy enjoyments. You are young. Enjoy the enjoyments of sensual pleasures. Let your marriage take place, child." 465. Then Sumedhaa spoke to them: "May such things not be. Existence is insubstantial. Either there will be going forth for me or death, not marriage. 466. "Like a worm, I would be associated with this foul body, impure, smelling of sweat, a frightful water bag of corpses, always flowing, full of impurities. 467. "What [do] I know it to be like? A body is repulsive, smeared with flesh and blood, food for worms, vultures, and other birds. Why is it given [to us]? RD: Thou art to be his chief consort, his queen. Hard is it, little child, to leave the world, Hard are the precepts and the holy life. (463) As queen thou wilt enjoy authority, Riches and sov'reignty and luxuries. Thou that art blest herein and young, enjoy The sweets life yields. Let's to thy wedding, child.' (464) Then answered them Sumedhaa: 'Nay, not thus! No soul, no essence, can becoming yield. One or the other shall be - choose ye which: Or let me leave the world, or let me die. Thus, and thus only, would I choose to wed. *419 (465) What is it worth *420 - this body foul, unclean, Emitting odours, source of fears, a bag Of skin with carrion filled, oozing impure (466) The while? What is it worth to me who know - Repulsive carcass, plastered o'er with flesh And blood, the haunt of worms, dinner of birds - To whom shall such a thing as this be given? (467) *419 Vaareyyam. So above, lit., 'Let there be choosing for thee, child,' the term for marriage in high life, whether or no the woman had any voice in the matter. *420 Lit., 'What is it like?' === to be continued, connie #80943 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 12:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/9/2008 4:04:42 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > > Hi, Jon - ... > Yes, the other factors are crucial. They are those mentioned in the suttas: > hearing the teachings and reflecting on what has been heard, with the > understanding that it relates to the present moment. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > So, that's it, then? Hearing and thinking over? > What of guarding the senses (the four right efforts)? What of > intentionally being mindful whenever possible? What of cultivating the jhanas? (Hearing > about them and thinking them will NEVER in themselves cultivate the jhanas. > You do know that, don't you, Jon?) > Jon, it seem to me that you are ignoring much of what the Buddha taught. Not at all. When there is mindfulness there is the guarding of the senses and there is also (one or more of) the four right efforts. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: When there mindfulness, there still may not be guarding the senses. For sure there is no guarding the senses without mindfulness, but more is required, namely encouraging & furthering what is wholesome, and avoiding & cutting off what is unwholesome. This that is additionally required is a matter of intentional effort. --------------------------------------------------- These are aspects of the arising of mindfulness. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: No. ------------------------------------------------ As regards "intentionally being mindful whenever possible", there is no mention of this in the texts. The mindfulness explained in the Satipatthana Sutta is not something that can be *intentionally done*. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: A rereading of, for example, the "Body" section of the Satipattana Sutta will show the opposite. --------------------------------------------- As regards the (mundane) jhanas, I do not consider their development to be part of satipatthana, so whether or not I have an interest in this, I would not bring it in to a discussion on the path. --------------------------------------------- Howard: They are part of the practice, and they constitute right concentration. They are not are not satipatthana, but neither is sila satipathana. So what? The Buddha, who said, himself, to teach nothing but dukkha and the end of dukkha, urged again & again cultivating the jhanas. You just have an aversion to the idea of jhanas. ----------------------------------------- But I can assure you that I do not ignore any part of what the Buddha taught. It's all worth knowing more about! > > Also, it is not only wisdom that is cultivated by meditation, but also a > > mind that is calm and collected. All the path factors, many also jhana > > factors as well, require cultivation. To say that they come about by > accumulation > > of those very same factors, and so on, and so on ... is to say nothing! > > Not sure why you say this. Sounds quite OK to me (except that I would say > the *rearising* of those very same factors; that's why they're called > "accumulations"!). What's the deficiency you see here? > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > You spoke only of cultivating wisdom. > ----------------------------------------------------- To my understanding, all kusala qualities are developed by the arising of the very same kusala factors. Is this not how you see it? --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: In part they are. By itself, as I already pointed out (as regards infinite, baseless regress), that would be entirely inadequate. ------------------------------------------------------- > ------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > Jon, your dismissing of intentional action (aka kamma) is simply amazing > to me. It is a centerpiece of the dhamma. > ---------------------------------------------- I am not dismissing kamma. But kamma is not the same as the conventional term "intentional action". ------------------------------------------------ Howard: - - - - - - - - "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma ." — _AN 6.63_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.063.than.html#part-5) Doing kamma "by way of body, speech, & intellect" is not just javana cittas. It is conventional, volitional action. - - - - - - - "'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'... "[This is a fact that] one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained... "Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'? There are beings who conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that bad conduct in body, speech, and mind will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker... "A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who — whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and live dependent on their actions. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the _[factors of the] path_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/index.html) take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed." — _AN 5.57_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.057.than.html) Look at these words, Jon: "Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'? There are beings who conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that bad conduct in body, speech, and mind will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker..." This is in regard to conventional, volitional action. ----------------------------------------------------- > Secondly, how could a mental activity that is not itself one of the kinds of > kusala lead to more kusala? > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > What unwholesome actions was I suggesting? The four right efforts? > - - - - - - - In a recent post you defined meditation as intentional activity that gave rise to sila, samadhi and panna. Well, if it gives rise to, in the sense of preceding, sila, samadhi and panna, then obviously it could not itself be any of those. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't know what you are talking about, Jon. ------------------------------------------------------------ > "And what, monks, is right effort? > [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of > evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. ... > [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not > yet arisen. ... This, monks, is called right effort." > â€â€Â? _SN 45.8_ > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) > - - - - - - - - > Please note the phrases "generates desire," "endeavors," "exerts his > intent". OK, let's look at [iii]: [iii] "[There is the case where a monk] generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. I think you read this an instruction for how to "have" right effort. Something like: First, you should generate desire for kusala; if this is done well enough and for long enough then kusala will follow. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Note the word 'should', Jon. ------------------------------------------------------ I don't think the passage should be read like that at all. I think it describes a particular situation ("There is the case where ...), namely, where right effort is arising in a person. At that moment the person has generated desire for the arising of kusala. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Jon, I know that you will always continue to see this matter this same way, the way that appeals to you. I do not expect to induce you to see it otherwise. ------------------------------------------------ Kusala cannot be "made" to arise. Sorry to have to disagree! ------------------------------------------- Howard: If there are no actions that human beings can engage in to cultivate wholesome states, then there is Dhamma. But I know you don't believe there are no such actions. Reading, studying, contemplating, and discussing the Dhamma are volitional, conventional activities, and you do believe that they lead to kusala states. So, your claim is incorrect. -------------------------------------------- Jon ======================= With metta, Howard #80944 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 5:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeking info on Nyanatiloka moellerdieter Dear Sarah and Nina, Hecker's book isn't available to me .. but I assume that much was provided by his student Ven. Nyanaponika . Ayya Kema and Lama Govinda should have been able to contribute as well , but unfortunately all passed away.. Some months ago there was some unpleasant dispute going on (see AsianTribune.com June 07) . Among others a response from Bhikkhu Bodhi lead to clarification.. with Metta Dieter #80945 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 1:10 am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy upasaka_howard Hi again, Jon = In a message dated 1/9/2008 8:51:05 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: ------------------------------------------- Howard: If there are no actions that human beings can engage in to cultivate wholesome states, then there is Dhamma. But I know you don't believe there are no such actions. Reading, studying, contemplating, and discussing the Dhamma are volitional, conventional activities, and you do believe that they lead to kusala states. So, your claim is incorrect. =========================== That first sentence should be "If there are no actions that human beings can engage in to cultivate wholesome states, then there is NO Dhamma." With metta, Howard #80946 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 6:12 am Subject: Visuddhimagga 226, 227 and Tiika. nilovg Visuddhimagga 226, 227. Intro: In the previous sections it was explained that eye-contact is conditoned by the eye base, visible object, seeing and the other accompanying cetasikas. There is association of the internal aayatanas and the external aayatanas. Seeing-consciousness is mind- base, manaayatana, and the cetasikas are dhammaayatana. Mind-base is an internal aayatana and dhammaayatana is an external aayatana. In the following sections it is explained what types of conditions operate in the case of the contacts through the senses and mind- contact. Mind-contact is accompanying all cittas other than the pa~nca-vi~n~naa.nas, thus also for example receiving-consciousness etc. in a sense-door process. (See Expositor p. 127.) ---------- Text Vis.226:[How the Sixfold Base is a Condition for Contact] But as regards these bases: Five in six ways; and after that One in nine ways; the external six As contact's conditionality According to each case we fix. Text Vis. 227: Here is the explanation: firstly, the five consisting of the eye base, etc., are conditions in six ways, as support, prenascence, faculty, dissociation, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for contact classed in five ways as eye-contact, and so on. -------- N: The five inner aayatanas which are the sense bases of eyesense, etc. are conditions for eye-contact etc. in six ways as mentioned in the text. As to prenascence-condition, the ruupas which are the sense bases have to arise before the naamas they condition since ruupa is too weak at its arising moment. As to faculty-condition, indriya- paccaya, the eyesense is a faculty, indriya, because it is a ‘leader’ in its own field. And it is the same for the other sense bases. As to dissociation, vippayutta, in this case ruupa conditions naama, and thus they are dissociated, not associated, sampayutta, as is the case when naama conditions another naama. As to presence and non-disappearance, the ruupa which is the sense base has arisen previously to the naama it conditions, but it is still present, it has not fallen away yet. -------- Text Vis.: After that, the single resultant mind base is a condition in nine ways, as conascence, mutuality, support, result, nutriment, faculty, association, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for the variously-classed resultant mind contact. -------- N: In this context the mind base, manaayatana, which is vipaakacitta is dealt with. This conditions the accompanying contact, mind- contact, in nine ways as mentioned above. The Tiika remarks as to the expression ‘ variously-classed (anekabhedassa) resultant mind contact’ that this refers to contact associated with vipaakacittas other than the five pairs (seeing, etc.). Since mind-base and the accompanying contact are in this case conascent, the conditions mentioned pertain to conascent dhammas. Mutuality is mentioned, since mind-base and contact condition one another. As to result, vipaaka, they condition each other by being both vipaaka. As to nutriment, ahaara, citta and contact are both mental nutrition. Citta is a mental nutriment for the accompanying dhammas. It is the ‘chief’ in knowing an object. Without citta cetasikas could not arise and experience an object. Citta supports and maintains the accompanying dhammas, including contact, it is a mental nutriment for them. The mental nutriments condition the continuation of the cycle of birth and death. As to faculty-condition, citta is a faculty, an indriya. It is the chief in knowing an object and as such it ‘rules’ over the associated dhammas, including contact. As to the conditions of association, presence and non-disappearance, the citta that conditions contact is associated with it and it is present to it. -------- Text Vis.: But in the case of the external bases, the visible-data base is a condition in four ways, as object, prenascence, presence, and non-disappearance conditions, for eye-contact. Likewise the sound base, etc., respectively for ear contact, and so on. -------- N: As we have seen, the ruupas that are the sense objects have to be prenascent to the cittas that experiences them. The conditions of presence and non-disappearance are mentioned, since ruupa has not fallen away yet when it is experienced in a sense-door process. Its duration of seventeen moments of citta. ----------- Text Vis.: But these and mental data as object are conditions likewise, and as object condition too, for mind-contact, so 'the external six as contact's conditionality according to each case we fix'. This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With the sixfold base as condition, contact'. -------- N: 'Mental data' is a translation of dhammaayatana. The sense objects and dhammaayatana are object-condition for mind-contact. ****** Conclusion: The internal aayatanas and external aayatanas are not abstract notions, they are realities of daily life. We read in the Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of the Abhidhamma, Ch 8): <...So from the causal condition of consciousness mind and matter (come into being). And supported by that very mind and materiality - not otherwise- the six sense-spheres are active as the doors for the six kinds of contact as appropriate...> One may have the wrong view that one lasting mind experiences different objects. However, the differentiation of eye-contact, ear- contact and the other contacts reminds us that citta experiences only one object at a time as it appears through one doorway and then falls away. The Tiika refers to the “Mahaavedallasutta (M. I, 43) where Ko.t.thita asks questions to Saariputta. Saariputta said about the five sense organs: ******* Nina. #80947 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 6:16 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 3. Satipatthåna Satipatthåna pertains to our conduct in every day life. The goal of the teachings is detachment from the concept of self and from all akusala. When we cling less to the idea of self there are more conditions for wholesomeness through body, speech and mind. Mindfulness and right understanding of all dhammas that appear lead to detachment from the concept of self. Sati and paññå are realities that can only arise when there are the right conditions, nobody can cause their arising at will. This will be clearer when we consider the different levels of sati. Sati arises with dåna, with síla and with bhåvanå, including samatha and vipassanå. Sati is non-forgetful of what is kusala, it arises with each kusala citta. When there is an opportunity for generosity, sati is heedful, non-forgetful, so that this opportunity is not wasted. When sati does not arise, we are forgetful of kusala and we are unable to be generous. When there is an opportunity for dåna, we are often neglectful and we waste this opportunity. When sati does not arise, we are unable to give, we are stingy. Many conditions are necessary for the arising of kusala citta: former accumulations of kusala and association with wise friends are important conditions. Also reading the scriptures, hearing the Dhamma and considering what we heard are conditions for seeing the benefit of kusala and the disadvantage of akusala. Thus, we cannot make kusala arise at will, it has no possessor, there is no one who can direct its arising. In order to understand what sati of satipatthåna is, we have to know what its object is. The Buddha speaks about all realities we can experience one at a time through the six doors. He speaks about seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, attachment, anger. These dhammas occur in daily life, and we can thoroughly penetrate their true characteristics only by mindfulness and understanding when they appear at this moment. Therefore, we should ask ourselves: what does paññå understand at this moment? Does it understand what seeing is, what hearing is? After seeing, hearing or the other sense-cognitions defilements arise on account of what we experience. We should realize all such moments as conditioned dhammas. --------- Nina. #80948 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 6:38 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 1. avalo1968 Hello Nina, I would like to ask how does this teaching actually change the way we live our life? I believe what you are saying is there is no deliberate change to what you do moment to moment and day to day, other than you spend more time listening to Dhamma and studying and perhaps associating with wise companions. I believe you are saying you cannot deliberately be generous or patient, since these things only arise when there are sufficient conditions. If I see a bug crawling across my kitchen counter whether I swat it or catch it and put it outside depends on conditions and it is an illusion that there is choice involved. Is this correct? Thank you Robert A. #80949 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 10:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy truth_aerator Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > > Not at all. When there is mindfulness there is the guarding of the > senses and there is also (one or more of) the four right efforts. > These are aspects of the arising of mindfulness. >> This MUST be volitionally done. It is hard and doesn't just happen on its own with no preliminary work, otherwise we would all have it. > As regards "intentionally being mindful whenever possible", there is > no mention of this in the texts. The mindfulness explained in the > Satipatthana Sutta is not something that can be *intentionally done*. > There is ALL the time. Remember the parable of turban on fire? Remember the strong determination (Aditthana) of Buddha on the night of enlightment (may my muscles and flesh dry up, flesh and blood remain, but I will not move until total enlightment). > As regards the (mundane) jhanas, I do not consider their development > to be part of satipatthana, so whether or not I have an interest in > this, I would not bring it in to a discussion on the path. >>>> A must. Satipathanas are present in the Jhanas as well. Furthermore things such as "exalted mind" (or something like that) , "unworldly pleasent feelings" are refering to Jhanas. > > > Also, it is not only wisdom that is cultivated by meditation, > but also a > > > mind that is calm and collected. All the path factors, many also > jhana > > > factors as well, require cultivation. To say that they come > about by > > accumulation > > > of those very same factors, and so on, and so on ... is to say > nothing! > > > > Not sure why you say this. Sounds quite OK to me (except that I > would say > > the *rearising* of those very same factors; that's why they're called > > "accumulations"!). What's the deficiency you see here? > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > You spoke only of cultivating wisdom. > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > To my understanding, all kusala qualities are developed by the arising > of the very same kusala factors. Is this not how you see it? > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > Howard: > > Jon, your dismissing of intentional action (aka kamma) is > simply amazing > > to me. It is a centerpiece of the dhamma. > > ---------------------------------------------- > > I am not dismissing kamma. But kamma is not the same as the > conventional term "intentional action". >>>> Kamma IS volition. It is in the suttas. > > Secondly, how could a mental activity that is not itself one of the > kinds of > > kusala lead to more kusala? > > -------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > What unwholesome actions was I suggesting? The four right efforts? > > - - - - - - - > > In a recent post you defined meditation as intentional activity that > gave rise to sila, samadhi and panna. Well, if it gives rise to, in > the sense of preceding, sila, samadhi and panna, then obviously it > could not itself be any of those. > > > "And what, monks, is right effort? > > [i] "There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, > activates > > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the > non-arising of > > evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. > ... > > [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > upholds & > > exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities > that have not > > yet arisen. > ... > This, monks, is called right effort." > > â€â€? _SN 45.8_ > > (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html) > > - - - - - - - - > > Please note the phrases "generates desire," "endeavors," "exerts his > > intent". > > OK, let's look at [iii]: > [iii] "[There is the case where a monk] generates desire, > endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his > intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that > have not yet arisen. > > I think you read this an instruction for how to "have" right effort. > Something like: First, you should generate desire for kusala; if this > is done well enough and for long enough then kusala will follow. > > I don't think the passage should be read like that at all. I think it > describes a particular situation ("There is the case where ...), > namely, where right effort is arising in a person. At that moment the > person has generated desire for the arising of kusala. > > Kusala cannot be "made" to arise. > > Sorry to have to disagree! > > Jon >\ Please excuse me, I am going to be VERY rude here. But the above is totally UnBuddhist, totally damaging to the teaching, TOTAL ADHAMMA, bringing great demerit and possibly leading to unfortunate rebirths for all Pujjhanas who teach and adhere to that heresy. --- read -===== 138. Bhikkhus, of cloth woven with different kinds of thread, the blanket made of head hair, should be proclaimed the most miserable, when cold it is cold, when hot it is hot, it isn't beautiful, its smell is evil nd it is unpleasant to the touch. Bhikkhus, in the same manner it should be declared that of the various beliefs of various recluses, Makkhali's view is the most miserable. Bhikkhus, Makkhali the foolish man is of this view: There is no action, there is nothing done, there is no effort. Bhikkhus, those who became worthy and rightfully enlightned in the past, those Blessed Ones too were of the view there is action, there is action done, and effort should be made. They too shut out the foolish man Makkhali's view. There is no action, there is nothing done, there is no effort. Bhikkhus, those who will become worthy and rightfully enlightned in the future, those Blessed Ones too will be of the view there is action, there is action done, and effort should be made. They too will shut out the foolish man Makkhali's view. There is no action, there is nothing done, there is no effort. Bhikkhus, I too worthy and rightfully enlightned at present, am of the view there is action, there is action done, and effort should be made. I too shut out the foolish man Makkhali's view. There is no action, there is nothing done, there is no effort. Bhikkhus, a net thrown at the mouth of the river ensnares many fish, to their ill fate, unpleasantness and disaster in the same manner Makkhali the foolish man's net entices many sentient beings, to their ill fate, unpleasantness and disaster. http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara1/3-tikanipata/014-yodhajivavaggo-e.html --- The Buddha spoke very strongly there. This point of (no action, yada, yada) has been rebuked. Adhamma must be pointed out as adhamma and Dhamma as Dhamma. There IS intentional action. There IS effort. There IS something to be done (removal of greed, anger and delusion). Lots of Metta, In Dhamma, Alex #80950 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 10:24 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 1. truth_aerator Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote: > > Hello Nina, > > I would like to ask how does this teaching actually change the way we > live our life? >>>> The Adhamma which mouthes down the need for skillful effort and skillful energy DOESN'T change people for the better. >>> I believe what you are saying is there is no deliberate > change to what you do moment to moment and day to day, >>> Thats pure Adhamma. Mokhalli Gosala must be happy. >>>>>> other than > you spend more time listening to Dhamma and studying and perhaps > associating with wise companions. >>> Studying Dhamma (Suttas) is a MUST. But one doesn't stop there. One must actually follow the instructions. It is like a sick patient coming to a doctor. A doctor gives him a ,edicine. Instead of taking the drug, a patient keeps asking doctor the details such as (who manufactured the drug. What clinical trials it went through. How many protons, electrons, neutrons, quarks and positrons the drug has. How does each proton, electron, neutron, quark, etc function.) The patient will die! You don't need to know how every transistor functions in a car, no need to be a PhD in Physics/Mathematics/Chemistry/Geology to drive a car from point A to B. >>> I believe you are saying you cannot deliberately be generous or patient, since these things only arise when there are sufficient conditions. If I see a bug crawling across my kitchen counter whether I swat it or catch it and put it outside depends > on conditions and it is an illusion that there is choice involved. > > Is this correct? > > Thank you > > Robert A. > Thats Adhamma at its finest. Mara just loves this. Ego loves this too. No need to put in effort... It will all come by itself... Lets sleep... BULL!!! If there were no volition, no "free" will, then there would be no need to teach "Be moral, do good, abandon evil, purify the mind" , since one couldn't volitionally do it anyways. Lots of Metta, With Dhamma, Alex #80951 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 10:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhana, was: Swimming analogy nilovg Hi James, thanks for the trouble getting the texts. Op 9-jan-2008, om 1:39 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > From Chapter XXI DESCRIPTION OF PURIFICATION BY KNOWLEDGE AND VISION > OF THE WAY > 111. WHAT GOVERNS THE DIFFERENCE IN THE NOBLE PATH'S ENLIGHTENENT > FACTORS, ETC. > > 112. To deal with these [three theories] in order: According to > governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight (dry-insight) > worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment > but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path > made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the > first jhana as the basis for insight, ARE THE PATHS OF THE FIRST JHANA > ONLY. > > James: This section of the Vism. could be easily misread if one > doesn't take into account the entire sentence. Here is what the > basics of this sentence reads: > > PATHS OF THE FIRST JHANA ONLY: > 1. Bare-Insight worker (dry-insight) > 2. Jhana attainer who doesn't use jhana for insight > 3. Jhana attainer who uses jhana for insight but comprehends unrelated > formations > > Therefore, according to the Vism., even a "dry-insight worker" has > achieved at least the first jhana. --------- N: Here the arising of the Path is supramundane path, at the moment of enlightenment. The Vis. speaks about the number of jhanafactors accompanying lokuttara citta. The concentration of the noble Path (supramundane) has for the dry insight worker the strength of the first stage of jhana, and nibbaana is the object. He speaks about the difference in factors of the noble path which is supramundane. ------ > > J: Let me continue with 112. text: > > In each case there are seven enlightenment factors, eight path > factors, and five jhana factors. For while their preliminary insight > can be accompanied by joy and it can be accompanied by equanimity, > when their insight reaches the state of equanimity about formations at > the time of emergence it is accompanied by joy. --------- N: Yes, five jhanafactors, since for the dry insight worker his concentration is equal to the first stage of jhana. Thus in all these texts we have to consider what is meant by Path: is it still mundane, or is it supramundane, that is when enlightenment is being attained. For instance when the Path is mundane it is not accompanied by all eight path factors, but only by five or six. The three abstinences do not always arise, and if they arise they do so one at a time. > > James: The text then goes on to describe other types of arahants who > have achieved higher jhanas. According to the Vism., there isn't a > single type of arahant who hasn't achieved at least the first jhana. > Therefore, I would conclude that jhana is necessary for enlightenment. ----- N: Let us say: all have, in the case of the supramundane path, concentration at least of the level of the first jhana. This does not mean that mundane jhana has to be cultivated as a necessary condition. Nina. #80952 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 10:38 am Subject: Sancetana. DSG vs The Buddha truth_aerator Aïguttara Nikàya 18. Sancetanàvaggo 1. Cetanàsuttaü Ý Intentions 018.01. Bhikkhus, internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings arise on account of ignorance, either when mindfull of the body and bodily intentions, mindfull of words and verbal intentions or when mindfull of thoughts and intentions. Bhikkhus, one intends bodily intentions for oneself and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Others intend bodily intentions for him, and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Mindfull and aware one intends bodily intentions for oneself and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Without mindfull awareness one intends bodily intentions for oneself and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Bhikkhus, one intends verbal intentions for oneself and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Others intend verbal intentions for him, and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Mindfull and aware one intends verbal intentions for oneself and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Without mindfull awareness one intends verbal intentions for oneself and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Bhikkhus, one intends mental intentions for oneself and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Others intend mental intentions for him, and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Mindfull and aware one intends mental intentions for oneself and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. Without mindfull awareness one intends mental intentions for oneself and on account of them, arises internal pleasant and unpleasant feelings. http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/018-sacetaniyavaggo-e.html "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect." — AN 6.63 Taking responsibility for one's actions "'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'... "[This is a fact that] one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained... "Now, based on what line of reasoning should one often reflect... that 'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'? There are beings who conduct themselves in a bad way in body... in speech... and in mind. But when they often reflect on that fact, that bad conduct in body, speech, and mind will either be entirely abandoned or grow weaker... "A disciple of the noble ones considers this: 'I am not the only one who is owner of my actions, heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator; who — whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir. To the extent that there are beings — past and future, passing away and re-arising — all beings are the owner of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related through their actions, and live dependent on their actions. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.' When he/she often reflects on this, the [factors of the] path take birth. He/she sticks with that path, develops it, cultivates it. As he/she sticks with that path, develops it and cultivates it, the fetters are abandoned, the obsessions destroyed." — AN 5.57 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma- ditthi/kamma.html Lots of Metta, With Dhamma, Alex #80953 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 10:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration nilovg Hi James, Op 9-jan-2008, om 1:57 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > But then unexpectedly strong akusala arises. We should be > > glad. Why? We can learn from this. It reminds us that there are > still > > the latentent tendencies not eradicated. > > James: This seems like some kind of weird Pollyanna philosophy. If I > am reading the posts on DSG and anger arises within my mind (a > frequent happening, btw ;-)) that is not a reason for me to be glad or > to appreciate that anger. The Buddha said that anyone who feels anger > is not practicing his teaching. However, if that anger arises and I > calm my mind down so that I don't jot off a scathing post, then that > is a reason to feel gladness. ------- N: Akusala itself is not to be promoted, but when we understand it as a conditioned dhamma, this moment of understanding is kusala. Learning from it is kusala. Different moments. ------- > James: The fact that conceit arises is not a reason to feel gladness. > The fact that you recognized the conceit is a reason to feel > gladness. There is an important difference between those two. -------- > N: We should not feel downhearted because of akusala. They are all > dhammas and do not belong to a self. We learn their nature of > anatta when we see that they still arise inspite of our good > intentions. --------- > > James in his other post: What I see presented in this group is the > > idea that ANYONE > > who practices meditation is doing something wrong. I have seen posts > > written to monks telling them that they shouldn't be practicing > > meditation either! > > ------ > > N: First we have to define meditation. > > James: What is there to define? I am speaking of Buddhist meditation > as detailed in the Vism. The meditation that was taught by the Buddha. ------- N: samatha and vipassana are called bhavana, meditation. Samatha does not have to reach the level of jhana. -------- > > There are meditations for > > every occasion such as the recollection of the Buddha. > > James: I am not sure what you mean "for every occasion". There are > meditations for certain personalities and mind states, but not "for > every occasion". This again sounds like some kind of Pollyanna > philosophy. --------- N: Some are very apt for daily life, a short recollection, I mean. Such as death. -------- > > When we > > understand what is kusala and what is akusala it is thanks to his > > teaching and we can think of him with gratefulness. > > James: Right, but that "thinking" is highly concentrated, done in > seclusion, and leads to access concentration in order to be classified > as meditation. Otherwise it is just thinking. --------- N: A short recollection, seclusion not being necessary. It can be in the kitchen. -------- > > > When meditation is bhaavanaa it is kusala. But one can take the > wrong > > one, with akusala citta, for the right one. Possible? > > James: Maybe, but so what? Are you also afraid of drowning like Sarah > is? ;-)) -------- N: It is crucial to know the difference, otherwise one goes wrong all the time. Nina. #80954 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 11:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness and concentration nilovg Dear Robert A, Op 9-jan-2008, om 3:10 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > Tep: MN i, 301, 44 states "the four foundations of mindfulness are the > > basis of concentration". Here "basis" comes from the Pali > > word 'nimitta'. I have seen another translation of nimitta as "signs > > and characteristics", for example in Ahara Sutta (SN 46.51) > > translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. -------- > N: We have to look at the context: mindfulness and concentration > are classified as the concentration of the eightfold Path and this > is explained here. Not cause and effect. Just as right thought and > right view are the wisdom of the eightfold Path. ---------- > > R: The second quote I cited: > > "If one thing, O monks, is developed and cultivated, the body is > calmed, > the mind is calmed, discursive thoughts are quieted, and all wholesome > states that partake of supreme knowledge reach fullness of > development. What is that one thing? It is mindfulness directed to the > body..." ------- > N: Supreme wisdom, is this not a Path moment, lokuttara? Then there > is te highest calm, namely eradication of defilements. --------- > R: doesn't it sound like the practicing the four foundations of > mindfulness, particularly mindfulness of the body, is a useful way to > develop concentration? ------- N: I think: to see things as they are. Pa~n~naa. Seeing no self in the body. Nina. #80955 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 6:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 1/9/2008 1:50:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: N: Akusala itself is not to be promoted, but when we understand it as a conditioned dhamma, this moment of understanding is kusala. Learning from it is kusala. Different moments. ============================= You are correct, Nina, on both accounts: One should not promote unwholesome states (certainly!), and, of course, recognizing unwholesome states as such and as being conditioned is certainly wholesome. But this is not enough. The Buddha said that one engaged in right effort, and with regard to unwholesome states, "... generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen," and 2) "... generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen." With metta, Howard #80956 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 11:20 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: benefit of kusala, was: Swimming analogy nilovg Hi Phil Op 8-jan-2008, om 11:05 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > You see Nina, the thing with me is that I simply cannot believe > that people do not seek benefits/results from the Dhamma. We are so > deeply conditioned to do so - I just cannot believe that we are not, > in some way, in it for ourselves. ------ N: This made me think. Seeing the benefit of kusala, but do we still wish some gain for ourselves? Some progress? A.S. explained that we perform kusala: 1. for our own sake. 2. for other people's sake. 3. for the sake of dhamma. As to 1 and 2 we can think of hiri and ottappa, shame and fear of blame. As to 3, I did not at first understand it so well. Now I understand it more. 3 is the purest, you do not expect anything for yourself, but just see: it is kusala. This also helps us to understand what a perfection is. No gain for yourself. When there is less the idea of me, me, we understand what it means: kusala for the sake of dhamma. We have to be mindful, because we can mislead ourselves and make ourselves believe that we understand the benefit of kusala. Nina. #80957 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 11:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration nilovg Hi Howard, Op 9-jan-2008, om 20:09 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > But this is not enough. The Buddha said that one engaged in right > effort, and with regard to unwholesome states, "... generates > desire, endeavors, > activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the > non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet > arisen," and 2) "... > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & > exerts his intent > for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that > have > arisen. -------- N: Of course there are the right efforts. These are cetasikas that are among the 37 enlightenment factors. They lead to enlightenment. When nama and rupa are objects of mindfulness and understanding, the four right efforts are being developed. The citta is at that moment kusala, and this prevents the arising of akusala at that moment. Nina. #80958 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 1. nilovg Dear Robert A (and Alex), Op 9-jan-2008, om 15:38 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > I would like to ask how does this teaching actually change the way we > live our life? I believe what you are saying is there is no deliberate > change to what you do moment to moment and day to day, other than > you spend more time listening to Dhamma and studying and perhaps > associating with wise companions. I believe you are saying you cannot > deliberately be generous or patient, since these things only arise > when > there are sufficient conditions. If I see a bug crawling across my > kitchen counter whether I swat it or catch it and put it outside > depends > on conditions and it is an illusion that there is choice involved. > > Is this correct? -------- N: Here is the old dilemma about free will, effort, choice, etc. This dilemma disappears if you understand that it is citta that motivates good deeds or bad deeds. It *seems* that a person can do this or that but it is citta that is the source of deeds. Sometimes it is possible to be generous or abstain from killing an insect, sometimes one fails. This shows the anattaness of cittas. But there can be training, no person who trains. When one listens to the dhamma and one understands the benefit of kusala, it is an encouragement to perform kusala instead of an evil deed. Such a moment falls away but it is not lost. There is accumulation of kusala so that there are conditions for its arising again. We can call that training, but there is no person who trains. Sati is a wholesome mental factor arising with each kusala citta. Kusala citta needs this factor and many others, such as confidence, shame of akusala and fear of blame. These factors support the kusala citta. It is useful to know this, we learn in this way that we cannot direct kusala, or make it arise, although it may seem that we can. Eventually the idea of "I can" will disappear. Nina. #80959 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 11:00 am Subject: Creation versus Liberation! bhikkhu0 Friends, All Creation – Any Emergence - is always followed by Suffering! At Savatthi the Blessed Buddha once said: Friends, verily the arising, the creation, the establishing, the manifestation, the rebirth, the very appearance of eye, ear, - nose, tongue, body and mind… That verily is the arising of suffering, the very establishing of dis-ease, the very appearing of decay-and-death...! Therefore, friends, verily the ceasing, the calming, the cooling, the fading, the coming to an end, the very extinction of eye, ear, - nose, tongue, body and mind… That is verily - as an inevitable consequence - the ceasing of all suffering, the very vanishing of dis-ease, the very extinction of decay-and-death...! [When there is sense-organ, objects can be sensed and clung to!] Friends, verily the arising, the creation, the establishing, the manifestation, the rebirth, the very appearance of forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touches and thoughts… This is verily the arising of suffering, of dis-ease, the very appearing of decay-and-death...! Therefore, friends, verily the ceasing, the calming, the cooling, the fading, the coming to an end, the very extinction of forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touches and thoughts… That is verily - as an inevitable consequence - the ceasing of suffering, the very vanishing of dis-ease, the very extinction of decay-and-death...! [There being sense organ + object, awareness of object can arise] Friends, verily the arising, the creation, the establishing, the manifestation, the rebirth, the very first seemingly innocent appearance of: eye-consciousness - awareness of the seen; ear-consciousness - awareness of the heard; nose-consciousness - awareness of the smelled; tongue-consciousness - awareness of taste; body-consciousness - awareness of the touched; mind-consciousness - awareness of mental thought; This is verily the arising of suffering, of dis-ease, the very appearing of decay-and-death...! Therefore, friends, verily the ceasing, the calming, the cooling, the fading, the coming to an end, the very extinction of: All eye-consciousness, all ear-consciousness, all nose-consciousness, all tongue-consciousness, all body-consciousness and all mental-consciousness That is verily - as an inevitable consequence - the ceasing of suffering, the very vanishing of dis-ease, the very extinction of decay-and-death...! [Meeting of sense, object and consciousness, that is the contact] Friends, verily the arising, the creation, the establishing, the manifestation, the rebirth, the very appearance of eye-contact; ear-, nose-, tongue-, body- and mental-contact This is verily the arising of suffering, of dis-ease, the very appearing of decay-and-death...! Therefore, friends, verily the ceasing, the calming, the cooling, the fading, the coming to an end, the very extinction of all eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body and all mental-contact… That is verily - as an inevitable consequence - the ceasing of suffering, the very vanishing of dis-ease, the very extinction of decay-and-death...! [From Contact Feeling arises - pleasant, painful, (the carrot & whip) or neither] Friends, verily the arising, the creation, the establishing, the manifestation, the rebirth, the very appearance of feeling arised from eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body- or mental-contact… This is verily the arising of suffering, the very establishing of dis-ease, the emergence of decay-and-death...! Therefore, friends, verily the ceasing, the calming, the cooling, the fading away, the coming to an end, |the very extinction of all feeling whether arised from eye-contact, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body- or mental-contact… That is verily - as an inevitable consequence - the ceasing of all suffering, the very vanishing of dis-ease, the complete elimination of decay-and-death...! [There being sensing and an assigned feeling, full perception arises] Friends, verily the arising, the creation, the establishing, the manifestation, the rebirth, the very appearance perception of form, sound, smell, taste, touch, mental state or idea… This is verily the arising of suffering, of dis-ease, the very appearing of decay-and-death...! Therefore, friends, verily the ceasing, the calming, the cooling, the fading, the coming to an end, the very extinction of perception of form, sound, smell, taste, touch, mental state or idea… That is verily - as an inevitable consequence - the ceasing of suffering, the very vanishing of dis-ease, the very extinction of all decay-and-death...! [There being full perception, inevitably Intention with the object arises; Will towards, or away from or to disregard the object arises. This arising of a directed force in the mind – Craving which causes longing and thus frustration, taking its freedom of being at ease - is most often subconscious, automatic, unnoticed, and hidden, but real and creating pain!!!] Friends, verily the arising, the creation, the establishing, the manifestation, the rebirth, the very appearance of intention towards, away from or intention to disregard forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, mental states or ideas… This is verily the arising of suffering, the very establishing of dis-ease, the very appearing of decay-and-death...! Therefore, friends, verily the ceasing, the calming, the cooling, the fading, the coming to an end, the very extinction of intention towards, away from or intention to disregard forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, mental states or ideas…That is verily - as an inevitable consequence - the ceasing of suffering, the very vanishing of dis-ease, the very extinction of decay-and-death...! [When there is intention, craving to act arises] Friends, verily the arising, the creation, the establishing, the manifestation, the rebirth, the very appearance of craving for body or forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, mental states or ideas… This is verily the arising of suffering, of dis-ease, the very appearing of decay-and-death...! Therefore, friends, verily the ceasing, the calming, the cooling, the fading, the coming to an end, the very extinction of craving for body or forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, mental states or ideas… That is verily - as an inevitable consequence - the complete ceasing of all suffering, the absolute vanishing of all dis-ease, the final lasting elimination of decay-and-death...! [All being & suffering has matter as its base, as prerequisite, as basic elements] Friends, verily the arising, the creation, the establishing, the manifestation, the rebirth, the very appearance of: The earth property: solid extensiveness - [Chemically manifested as the rigid covalent bond] The fluid property, cohesiveness - [Chemically manifested as the flexible ionic or electrostatic bond] The fire property, radiating heat – [Chemically: the oxidative potential, ability to burn or oxidize] The air (gas) property, mobility - [Physically: the kinetic energy or potential, ability to move] The open space enabling all physical phenomena to exist, The naked consciousness enabling mental phenomena to arise This is verily the arising of suffering, the very establishing of dis-ease, the very appearing of decay-and-death...! Therefore, friends, verily the ceasing, the calming, the cooling, the fading, the coming to an end, the very extinction of: All earth property: All solid extensiveness, All fluid property: All cohesiveness - All fire property, All radiating heat, All air (gas) property, All motion & mobility - All space, room, distances and spatial relations. All consciousness, awareness, and thus object-clutching: That is verily - as an inevitable consequence - the very ceasing of all suffering, the very vanishing of all dis-ease, the very extinction of all decay-and-death...! [All this can be condensed into the Five-Fold Cluster of Clinging] So, friends, verily the arising, the creation, the establishing, the manifestation, the rebirth, the very appearance of any body, - any feeling, any perception, any mental construction and any consciousness This is verily the arising of suffering, the very establishing of dis-ease, the very appearing of decay-and-death...! Therefore, friends, verily the ceasing, the calming, the cooling, the fading away of, the coming to an end of, the very extinction all body and form, all feeling, all perception, all mental construction and all and any consciousness That is verily - as an inevitable consequence - the very ceasing of suffering, the very vanishing of dis-ease, the very extinction of decay-and-death...! ---- Endure the repetition, friends, it hammers in the spike of emancipating freedom, nails down, bolts fasts and assures this all-releasing truth so it is not easily forgotten... It is said that teaching and learning Dhamma in our time is like drawing in water with a stick ... Therefore is the need for radical repetition nowadays quite enhanced. Source: Samyutta Nikaya The Khandha Book - The Book on the Clusters Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ... #80960 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 4:04 pm Subject: Re: benefit of kusala, was: Swimming analogy philofillet Hi Nina Thank you, I find the below very helpful. It gets at what I was clumsily getting at when I wrote about eh acrobat sutta the other day. > > You see Nina, the thing with me is that I simply cannot believe > > that people do not seek benefits/results from the Dhamma. We are so > > deeply conditioned to do so - I just cannot believe that we are not, > > in some way, in it for ourselves. > ------ > N: This made me think. Seeing the benefit of kusala, but do we still > wish some gain for ourselves? Some progress? > A.S. explained that we perform kusala: 1. for our own sake. 2. for > other people's sake. 3. for the sake of dhamma. > As to 1 and 2 we can think of hiri and ottappa, shame and fear of blame. > As to 3, I did not at first understand it so well. Now I understand > it more. 3 is the purest, you do not expect anything for yourself, > but just see: it is kusala. This also helps us to understand what a > perfection is. No gain for yourself. When there is less the idea of > me, me, we understand what it means: kusala for the sake of dhamma. > We have to be mindful, because we can mislead ourselves and make > ourselves believe that we understand the benefit of kusala. So maybe for me, 1 and 2 are involved in "taking care of oneself by taking care of others" - a lot of consideration of loving kindness and harmlessness and patience and as you say hiri and otappa - and 3 is "taking care of others by taking care of oneself" - the deep satipatthana that is ultimately the real liberation. Something like that.I think this latter aspect is the purest too. And since it is pure I will not push too ahrd to grasp it. I will continue to practice more in terms of 1 and 2 and see how 3 develops, without expectation. An approach where there are no people involved, only dhammas performing their functions - this makes it hard for me to understand 1 and 2. For example, it is very hard for me to understand hiri and otappa without people involved. Metta, Phil #80962 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 4:52 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 1. truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Robert A (and Alex), > Op 9-jan-2008, om 15:38 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > > > I would like to ask how does this teaching actually change the way we > > live our life? I believe what you are saying is there is no deliberate > > change to what you do moment to moment and day to day, other than > > you spend more time listening to Dhamma and studying and perhaps > > associating with wise companions. I believe you are saying you cannot > > deliberately be generous or patient, since these things only arise > > when > > there are sufficient conditions. If I see a bug crawling across my > > kitchen counter whether I swat it or catch it and put it outside > > depends > > on conditions and it is an illusion that there is choice involved. > > > > Is this correct? > -------- > N: Here is the old dilemma about free will, effort, choice, etc. > This dilemma disappears if you understand that it is citta that > motivates good deeds or bad deeds. >>> Does the citta has atleast SOME present output or is it 100% caused by past causes? > It *seems* that a person can do this or that but it is citta that is the source of deeds. >>> I'd say Vinnana-Nama-Rupa or 5 Khandas. Or more precisely it is Sankhara-Khanda that wills, rupa physically does. Sometimes it is possible to be generous or > abstain from killing an insect, sometimes one fails. This shows the > anattaness of cittas. But there can be training, >>> GOOD! >> no person who trains. >>>> The problem I have is not about Anatta. The problem is the way some people talk, it appears that there is NO chance of changing present actions. It seems that some DSG members seem to imply that good or bad deeds are predetermined and there is no chance of consiously changing towards this or that destiny. >>> When one listens to the dhamma and one understands the > benefit of kusala, it is an encouragement to perform kusala instead > of an evil deed. >>>> And Bhavana!!! Very often Bhavana IS required. For example if a person has strong lust, believe me, simply hearing about drawbacks is NOT enough. One must do maranasati, kaygatasati, asubha, etc. Such a moment falls away but it is not lost. There > is accumulation of kusala so that there are conditions for its > arising again. We can call that training, but there is no person who trains. >>> Again the problem was that posts appeared to suggest that there is no consious training. We have no arguments about the truth of Anatta! Argument is about 100% determinism or not of the 5 Khandas. Lots of Metta, Alex #80963 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 5:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration buddhatrue Hi Nina (and Howard), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Akusala itself is not to be promoted, but when we understand it as > a conditioned dhamma, this moment of understanding is kusala. > Learning from it is kusala. Different moments. James: This I agree with. I thought you were saying something else, otherwise I wouldn't have disagreed. > ------- > > James: The fact that conceit arises is not a reason to feel gladness. > > The fact that you recognized the conceit is a reason to feel > > gladness. There is an important difference between those two. > -------- > > N: We should not feel downhearted because of akusala. They are all > > dhammas and do not belong to a self. We learn their nature of > > anatta when we see that they still arise inspite of our good > > intentions. James: I am not talking about feeling "downhearted". I am talking about arousing persistence for the non-arising of unwholesome states. Non-acceptance of such states doesn't equal being "downhearted" or "depressed". It can be done with some amount of equanimity. > --------- > > > James in his other post: What I see presented in this group is the > > > idea that ANYONE > > > who practices meditation is doing something wrong. I have seen posts > > > written to monks telling them that they shouldn't be practicing > > > meditation either! > > > ------ > > > N: First we have to define meditation. > > > > James: What is there to define? I am speaking of Buddhist meditation > > as detailed in the Vism. The meditation that was taught by the Buddha. > ------- > N: samatha and vipassana are called bhavana, meditation. Samatha does > not have to reach the level of jhana. James: I didn't say that it did. Mundane concentration prior to jhana is also meditation. This is, again, detailed in the Vism. > -------- > > > > There are meditations for > > > every occasion such as the recollection of the Buddha. > > > > James: I am not sure what you mean "for every occasion". There are > > meditations for certain personalities and mind states, but not "for > > every occasion". This again sounds like some kind of Pollyanna > > philosophy. > --------- > N: Some are very apt for daily life, a short recollection, I mean. > Such as death. > -------- > > > > When we > > > understand what is kusala and what is akusala it is thanks to his > > > teaching and we can think of him with gratefulness. > > > > James: Right, but that "thinking" is highly concentrated, done in > > seclusion, and leads to access concentration in order to be classified > > as meditation. Otherwise it is just thinking. > --------- > N: A short recollection, seclusion not being necessary. It can be in > the kitchen. James: Okay, this is a very tricky area. I agree with what you are saying but with a qualification. Now, Nina, pay very close attention to what I am going to write, all of it, not just the parts you like. The Buddha taught: "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Buddha while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children." This corresponds to what you are saying above, HOWEVER!! The Buddha gives a stipulation about what must be done PRIOR!! to one being able to do this: "One who is aroused to practice is one of conviction, not without conviction. One aroused to practice is one with persistence aroused, not lazy. One aroused to practice is one of established mindfulness, not muddled mindfulness. One aroused to practice is centered in concentration, not uncentered. One aroused to practice is discerning, not undiscerning. "Established in these five qualities, you should further develop six qualities: [Recollection of the Buddha, Dhamma, Shanga, Virtue, Generosity, Devas] James: So, in order to practice these recollections in daily life, as you state Nina, one must: Have conviction, not be lazy, have established mindfulness, centered in concentration, and be discerning. If these criteria are met, then it could be said that one is meditating during daily life. However, if these criteria are not met, then I say that one is just thinking. > -------- > > > > > When meditation is bhaavanaa it is kusala. But one can take the > > wrong > > > one, with akusala citta, for the right one. Possible? > > > > James: Maybe, but so what? Are you also afraid of drowning like Sarah > > is? ;-)) > -------- > N: It is crucial to know the difference, otherwise one goes wrong all > the time. James: We all go wrong all the time anyway. At least with meditation practice we have a chance of going right. Without it, the chance is slim to none. > Nina. Metta, James ps. I am going to drop the dry-insight worker thread. You say the text means one thing and I just don't see that. Further discussion is pointless. #80964 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 6:58 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness and concentration buddhistmedi... Hi Robert and Sarah, - Thank you, Robert, for asking me for a clarification. > >Robert A. : If the translation of 'basis' is 'nimitta', does this mean that the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness leads to the arising of the nimitta? T: I don't think the suttas you have quoted imply that "the practice of the four foundations of mindfulness leads to the arising of the nimitta". In another sutta I learn that satipatthana as a nimitta of samadhi is like a ray of light that appears in the sky when a morning sun is rising. ................... Thank you, Sarah, for adding more information that is for learning. >Sarah: The passage is talking about satipatthana and samadhi in the context of the 8fold Path. So, as I understand, satipatthana leads to the understanding of what samaadhinimitta is. >When there is the developed understanding of the arising and falling away of dhammas (at the third stage of tender insight), it's clear what realities are and what nimittas of conditioned dhammas are and how all dhammas (except nibbana) have a nimitta. >Here the text is talking about samadhi, so it's samadhinimitta which is made clear. If the text were talking about any other dhamma, it would be the same. The development of satipatthana clarifies the nature of all dhammas. >S: Any comments? ...................................... Since your explanation extends beyond my understanding about samadhi nimitta, I do not know what to comment. Perhaps, Robert may have a few. Tep === #80965 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 8:16 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Swimming analogy scottduncan2 Dear Alex, Regarding: "Please excuse me, I am going to be VERY rude here. But the above is totally UnBuddhist, totally damaging to the teaching, TOTAL ADHAMMA, bringing great demerit and possibly leading to unfortunate rebirths for all Pujjhanas who teach and adhere to that heresy... The Buddha spoke very strongly there. This point of (no action, yada, yada) has been rebuked. Adhamma must be pointed out as adhamma and Dhamma as Dhamma." Scott: Alex, please Settle Down. I find your evangelical tirades to in no way constitute discussion. "Action" is *kamma*, man. Try to think a bit abstractly here. Notions regarding the effectiveness of your or my so-called 'willful' conscious determination to do something is what is being challenged. Not kamma. "138. ...Makkhali's view is the most miserable. Bhikkhus, Makkhali the foolish man is of this view: There is no action, there is nothing done, there is no effort..." 35. "Makkhalii bhikkhave moghapuriso eva.mvaadii eva.mdi.t.thii: "natthi kamma.m, natthi kiriya.m, natthi viriya"nti." Scott: The doctrine of Makkhalii Gosaala, according to the subcommentary to the Brahmajaala Sutta (The All Embracing Net of Views, tr. Bh. Bodhi, p.191), is "the doctrine of moral acausality, because it asserts 'there is no cause or condition for the defilement (and perfection) of beings', and is comprised of the doctrine of fortuitous origination." If you think Jon, or anyone you feel the need to Chastise in the name of Dog Knows What, is making the same assertion, then you are simply and entirely missing the point. We are dealing with mental factors (as in the first case, with cetanaa) or types of consciousness. "Kamma (Nyanatiloka): advantageous or disadvantageous action; Sanskrit karma, Paali: kamma: 'action', correctly speaking denotes the advantageous and disadvantageous intentions kusala and akusala-cetanaa and their concomitant mental properties, causing rebirth and shaping the destiny of beings. These kammical intentions kammacetanaa become manifest as advantageous or disadvantageous actions by body kÄ?ya-kamma speech vacii-kamma and mind mano-kamma..." "Kiriya: or Kriya-citta: (Nyanatiloka) 'functional consciousness' or 'kammically inoperative consciousness', is a name for such states of consciousness as are neither kammically advantageous kusala nor disadvantageous akusala nor kamma-results vipÄ?ka that is, they function independently of kamma..." Viriya, also a mental factor (cetasika) is "the *mental inception* of energy which there is on that occasion, the striving and the onward effort, the exertion and endeavour, the zeal and ardour, the vigour and the fortitude, the state of unaltering effort, the state of sustained desire, the state of unflinching endurance and solid grip of the burden, energy as faculty and as power, right endeavour...", according to Dhammasa"nga.ni. This is a conditioned dhamma with anatta as characteristic, therefore it functions but is not controllable. No one denies these three aspects of Dhamma as far as I can see. Sincerely, Scott. #80966 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 9:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] mindfulness and concentration avalo1968 Sarah and Tep, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > > S: The passage is talking about satipatthana and samadhi in the context of > the 8fold Path. So, as I understand, satipatthana leads to the > understanding of what samaadhinimitta is. > Robert A: Actually, the paragraph says "the development of concentration", which seems pretty clear. How do you get from the development of concentration to the understanding of what samaadhinimitta is? What is wrong with just reading it as developing concentration? Thanks, Robert A. #80967 From: "Robert" Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 10:14 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 1. avalo1968 Hello Nina, I really was not trying to revive the old discussion about whether you can will kusala or not. What I was trying to do is get an accurate picture of what are the teachings of Khun Sujin in as simple terms as I could. This is why I phrased the question as I did. --------------------- I would like to ask how does this teaching actually change the way we live our life? I believe what you are saying is there is no deliberate change to what you do moment to moment and day to day, other than you spend more time listening to Dhamma and studying and perhaps associating with wise companions. I believe you are saying you cannot deliberately be generous or patient, since these things only arise when there are sufficient conditions. If I see a bug crawling across my kitchen counter whether I swat it or catch it and put it outside depends on conditions and it is an illusion that there is choice involved. Is this correct? ----------------------- I am not interested in trying to make one point or another here, just clarify how you see things. Thank you, Robert A. #80968 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:10 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: benefit of kusala, was: Swimming analogy nilovg Hi Phil, Op 10-jan-2008, om 1:04 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > An approach where there are no people involved, only dhammas > performing their functions - this makes it hard for me to understand > 1 and 2. For example, it is very hard for me to understand hiri and > otappa without people involved. -------- N: Hiri and ottappa themselves are cetasikas, not ours. In order to explain their charactreistics it was said that hiri has a subjective origin, its proximate cause being self respect and ottappa an external cause, influenced by the world. When observing siila we can think of people, but the observing itself is motivated by kusala citta and cetasikas, dhammas performing their functions. Nina. #80969 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:44 am Subject: Hiri and otappa (was Re: benefit of kusala, was: Swimming analogy philofillet Hi Nina > N: Hiri and ottappa themselves are cetasikas, not ours. In order to > explain their charactreistics it was said that hiri has a subjective > origin, its proximate cause being self respect and ottappa an > external cause, influenced by the world. > When observing siila we can think of people, but the observing itself > is motivated by kusala citta and cetasikas, dhammas performing their > functions. Thanks. This brings up something I've wondered about. It always feels to me like self respect and fear of the world's opinion are so closely related, and I wonder where the moral fear that motivates a lot of my abstention - the fear of the kammic results of my actions - falls in. This definition you've quoted, which comes from Vism, if I recall, never seems to get at fear of kammic results, rebirth in unfavourable destinations, etc. I wonder if anyone else has wondered about that. It seems to me that that is what "moral dread" would be about, not fear of the world's opinion. (Not disputing the text, of course. Just wondering.) Metta, Phil #80970 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:40 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, Only one reality can be experienced through one doorway at a time. When there is understanding of visible object as a dhamma experienced through the eyesense, there can be correct thinking of it. At such a moment we do not pay attention to the image of a whole or the details. When we are dreaming it seems that we see people and things, but in a dream our eyes are closed and we do not see, there is no visible object impinging on the eyesense. We merely remember what was seen before. Visible object has completely gone and what is left is only an image or concept we think of. Also when we are awake we often live as it were in a dream. Time and again it seems that we see people and things whereas in reality only visible object can be seen. We are drowning in the ocean of concepts, we are usually lost in thinking about people and events. But Dhamma is our island when we can begin to develop understanding of nåma and rúpa. As the Buddha said in the “Mahå-Parinibbåna sutta” : be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge: with the Teaching as your island, the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge...” The Buddha taught us the Dhamma so that we can develop our own understanding. It is essential to know the difference between the moments when we are lost in thinking of concepts and when there is awareness of just one characteristic appearing through one doorway at a time. When awareness arises the characteristic of the reality that appears at the present moment is the object of awareness, and in this way one knows the difference between a moment of awareness and a moment without awareness. Paññå leads to detachment from the idea of self and also from all objects we experience. I told Acharn Sujin that I was worried about Lodewijk’s health and she answered that worry is only nåma. I found this answer like a cold shower, a bitter medicine, but it is the truth. Even when we understand the truth in theory, we may not be ready yet to accept the truth. We find our problems most important and we are drowning in the ocean of concepts, but we should remember that there is the island of Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that we should understand the real meaning of dukkha: the truth that there are only elements which do not last. We should not try to have less clinging, less worry, but understanding can be naturally developed of whatever dhamma occurs. We should have understanding of worry as only a conditioned dhamma that is already past, otherwise we cling to the idea of “my worry”. What she said is deep, it is wise, it is most effective. When we were going around the Stupa in Kusinåra which commemorates the Buddha’s parinibbåna, Acharn Sujin reminded me that through the development of understanding there can be detachment from visible object and also from thinking. When I said that I find detachment most difficult, she stressed: “It has to be developed!” First we have only intellectual understanding of nåma and rúpa, but understanding can be developed so that direct understanding can arise. It is bound to take a long time to become detached from realities. ******* Nina. #80971 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:46 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 8 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 470. "Nibbuyhati susaana.m, acira.m kaayo apetavi~n~naa.no; chuddho ka.li"ngara.m viya, jigucchamaanehi ~naatiihi. 471. "Chuddhuuna na.m susaane, parabhatta.m nhaayanti jigucchantaa; niyakaa maataapitaro, ki.m pana saadhaara.naa janataa. 472. "Ajjhositaa asaare, ka.levare a.t.thinhaarusa"nghaate; khe.lassuccaarassavaparipu.n.ne puutikaayamhi. 473. "Yo na.m vinibbhujitvaa, abbhantaramassa baahira.m kayiraa; gandhassa asahamaanaa, sakaapi maataa jiguccheyya. 474. "Khandhadhaatu-aayatana.m, sa"nkhata.m jaatimuulaka.m dukkha.m; yoniso anuvicinantii, vaareyya.m kissa iccheyya.m. 468. "The body is soon carried out to the cemetery, devoid of consciousness. It is thrown away like a log disgusted by relatives. 469. "When they have thrown it away in the cemetery as food for others, one's own mother and father washe themselves, disgusted. How much more so ordinary people! 470. "They are attached to the unsubstantial body, an aggregate of bones and sinews, to the foul body, full of salive, tears, excrement, and pus. 471. "If anyone, dissecting it, were to turn it inside out, even one's own mother, being unable to bear the smell of it, would be disgusted. 472. "Reflecting in a reasoned manner that the aggregates, the elements, [and] the sense bases are conditioned state[s], have rebirth as their root, [and] are painful, why should I wish for marriage? RD: Borne in a little while to charnel-field, There is this body thrown, when mind hath sped, *421 Like useless log, from which e'en kinsfolk turn. (468) Throwing the thing that they have bathed to be The food of alien things, whereat recoil The very parents, let alone their kin. (469) They have a fondness for this soulless frame, That's knit of bones and sinews, body foul, Filled full of exudations manifold. (470) Where one the body to dissect, and turn The inside outermost, the smell would prove Too much for e'en one's mother to endure. (471) The factors of my being, organs, elements, All are a transient compound, rooted deep In birth, are Ill, and first and last the thing I would not. *422 Whom, then, could I choose to wed? (472) *421 Apetavi~n~naa.no. *422 Yoniso aruci.m. Cf. Pss. xxx., xxxviii., lvii. === to be continued, connie #80972 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:49 am Subject: I'm back again! pannabahulo My dear Dhamma friends, Firstly I want to say a big "Thank you" for Sarah's latest posting to me and also to Nina who asked "Why wait until February before you ask your questions?" I want to stress that, in asking my questions, I do not want any of you to think that I am showing any disrespect to anyone. I have tremendous respect for Ajan Sujin for all that she says and for just the way she is. I have great respect for Nina for all the years of dedication she has put into making the Abhidhamma understandable to us English speakers.And I have great respect for the way Sarah has patiently tolerated my lengthy letters.I raise my questions in the spirit of the Lord Buddha's exhortation that we should question, very thoroughly, our teachers and even the teachings of the Lord Buddha himself. I have many questions but here I wish to deal with the first one.As some of you know,I spent many years in formal meditation and was a retreat junkie.But I finally got very disillusioned when I realised that the benefits I gained in the early years seemed to have come to a grinding halt.I felt that formal meditation had become something of a rite and ritual. Just at that point the Ven Dhammanando suggested I visit Ajan Sujin.My impressions of the subsequent meetings I attended convinced me that I had finally stumbled upon something that would be of lasting value to me. Then I went to Myanmar and practised under Sayadaw U Tejiniya. This was Satipatthana with an emphasis on mind.Meditation is 'mind work' he says; so that should be the place we should be most mindful of. During my time in Myanamar I learnt a tremendous amount.For the first time I really began to see, and understand,how the(my)mind works.This had nothing to do with Abhidhamma. In a talk given by the late Ven Ajan Chah - and published under the title 'Clarity of Insight' - he spoke in the following way: "By focusing awareness on the mind alone, you gain understanding and insight into the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind and all their objects. The mind is there already, so the important thing is to investigate right at the centre of the mind. The further you go investigating the mind itself, the clearer and more profound the insight that emerges. This is something I emphasise when teaching, because understanding this point is crucial to the practice......The important thing is to put effort into developing insight through investigation of the three characteristics.....once the mind has these characteristics, it means you no longer have to be the doer in the practice. You could say that it is as if you have finished all the work you have been doing and the only thing left is for you to leave things to themselves and watch over the mind. You don't have to be someone who is doing something anymore. There is still mental activity occurring – you experience pleasant and unpleasant sense contact according to your kammic accumulations – but you see it as "just that much" and are letting go of attachment to the sense of self the whole time." As you probably know, Ven Ajan Chah had no time for the Abhidhamma.His view was that the Dhamma is simple in nature,whereas the Abhidhamma was just a lot of complexities.He also discouraged Western monks from reading. He understood that Abhidhamma appeals to the academic bent of the Western mind. In my own case I know that to be true. I spent eight and a half years studying Western philosophy at universities and colleges in the UK.It is all to easy for me to bury my head in a book. I am a monk and find it extremely difficult to be mindful of the six sense doors for any length of time.Most of you are lay people with work, family and other commitments.On top of that you are reading books which are not at all easy reading. This leads me to infer that you cannot have that much time for quiet, and solitary, observation of the mind. So the vast amount of what must be going on is sutta maya panna.There is obviously cinta maya panna too.But, in the next life (IMHO) all that will be forgotten.The only thing that really counts is the bhavana maya panna we develop in this one. Please tell me what is the point of spending so much time studying complex details that cannot be applied now in the observation of our minds? This question reminds me of the Lord Buddha's analogy of the poisened arrow to Malukyaputta. If we didn't get the arrow out we would die before we found out what it was made of, who made it,where did he live and so on. This is why I still hold practice to be the important thing. I don't need to study books to know whether mind states are kusala or akusula.To be quite honest the vast majority of (my) mind states are akusala. That's enough for me to deal with. IMHO only practice will develop non attachment to them and so facilitate the work of mental purification.I see a tremedous sense of urgency in this.The poisoned arrow is penetrating deeply. What sayest thou? With metta and every blessing, Pannabahulo #80973 From: "abhidhammika" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:01 am Subject: First_Class Concentration Is Compulsory -- (Was) Welcome To The Theravada Fold abhidhammika Dear Scott D, Nina, Sarah, Chris F, Jon, Mike N, Robert K, Howard How are you? ______________________________________________________________ Suan: "...do you now accept the importance of Right Concentration (Sammaasamaadhi)?" Scott: Here, I think, you are referring only to cultivating Jhaana. __________________________________________________________ Suan replied in this post: No, Scott, even though I am a samathayaaniko. One of the advantages of being a Theravada practitioner is practice of the Middle Way becoming a second nature. Thus, insisting on cultivating and attaining Jhaana as prerequisites for awakening is one extreme while abandoning formal development of Right Concentration is the other extreme. ____________________________________________________________________ Suan: "And, with that, do you now accept the compulsory nature of formal development of Right Concentration?" Scott: I'm interested in getting a cogent answer to this point. I'd like to read your opinion as to why you consider Right Concentration only in light of its place in jhaana, if I'm understanding you. And, as well, why it would be any more 'compulsory' than the development of concentration during Vipassana? ___________________________________________________________________ Suan wrote in this post: Right Concentration and Right Vipassana are equally compulsory, the latter representing Right View and Right Thinking. My emphasis here is on the compulsory nature of formal development of each component of Noble Eightfold Path. I singled out Right Concentration because I belatedly came to notice some of you, Sarah, for example, trying to banish it from the Noble Eightfold Path by tarnishing it in order to justify their puthujjana teacher's stance against formal development of the path components. Some puthujjana teachers can be reckless and irresponsible by saying things that amount to reducing Mahaa Sama.no Gotamo's teachings to their level of understanding. The main (or most important) teachings of Mahaa Sama.no, Gotamo the Buddha, are against the common way of thinking applied by some putthujjana teachers. They are counter-intuitive. They are against the flow of the stream. The sama.na movement that Gotamo the Buddha established in ancient India and still flourishes outside India was also counter-intuitive on a societal scale. It greatly upset pro-status-quo people as much as inspired free-thinking brave individuals across all the social boundaries. Please notice the adjective `brave' in the expression `free-thinking brave individuals'. The fact of being a free-thinking individual is not enough to make one a sama.no in the Buddhist sense. One must also have considerable amount of selfless courage to become a Buddhist sama.no. Did I answer your questions? Let me know. With regards, Suan Lu Zaw www.bodhiology.org #80974 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:27 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 2. avalo1968 Hello Nina, Does Acharn Sujin also emphasize that there is joy and peace in Dhamma as well as the cold shower? I think it is helpful to always keep this in mind. With metta, Robert A. #80975 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] First_Class Concentration Is Compulsory -- (Was) Welcome To The Theravada Fold nilovg Dear Suan, thank you for taking the trouble writing this post. Op 10-jan-2008, om 15:01 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > My emphasis here is on the compulsory nature of formal development > of each component of Noble Eightfold Path. > > I singled out Right Concentration because I belatedly came to notice > some of you, Sarah, for example, trying to banish it from the Noble > Eightfold Path by tarnishing it in order to justify their puthujjana > teacher's stance against formal development of the path components. ------- N: I do not think anyone banishes right concentration, that would be impossible. As I see it, all factors develop together and right understanding takes the lead. I must confess, Suan, I have always trouble with the expression: formal meditation. I do not see anything formal here. The Buddha preached to monks, nuns and laypeople. Also laypeople can develop the Path in their own situation, the situation of work and many duties. I also see it this way: not "I" develop the eightfold Path, but the eightfold Path develops, provided there are the right conditions for it. These conditions are as you know: association with the kaliyanamitta, listening, wise consideration and practising the Dhamma in conformity with Dhamma (dhammaanudhamma). I think you know best the Pali meaning of this. For the sake of others on this list I now quote an explanation in the Co. to the Parinibbaanasutta (The Buddha's Last Days, Yang-Gyu An): --------- 1: The teaching of the noble is of the path (magga), or else also the ninefold supramundane dhamma (puraana.tiikaa on Suma"ngalavilaasinii). 2: The appropriate course means the teaching of insight meditation (vipassanaa), or the first six purification (same Tiika) , or the successive course of purifications suitable for purifying knowledge and vision (Udana co. 327). Nina. #80976 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 2. nilovg Dear Robert A, good question. Op 10-jan-2008, om 15:27 heeft Robert het volgende geschreven: > Does Acharn Sujin also emphasize that there is joy and peace in > Dhamma as well as the cold shower? I think it is helpful to always > keep this in mind. -------- N: O yes. She spoke many times about gladness and courage, this was during a former India trip. It was funny to me to read now what I thought then about a cold shower, and bitter medicine. I see it differently now, perhaps I am slowly understanding just a tiny, tiny bit more about no person. That answers your question in the other post: what do I learn. Difficult to pinpoint this, I think. There is development that is hardly noticeable. Who can measure this? You wrote: Yes, I see what you mean. Nina. #80977 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 2. upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/10/2008 8:40:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Dear friends, Only one reality can be experienced through one doorway at a time. When there is understanding of visible object as a dhamma experienced through the eyesense, there can be correct thinking of it. At such a moment we do not pay attention to the image of a whole or the details. When we are dreaming it seems that we see people and things, but in a dream our eyes are closed and we do not see, there is no visible object impinging on the eyesense. We merely remember what was seen before. Visible object has completely gone and what is left is only an image or concept we think of. Also when we are awake we often live as it were in a dream. Time and again it seems that we see people and things whereas in reality only visible object can be seen. We are drowning in the ocean of concepts, we are usually lost in thinking about people and events. But Dhamma is our island when we can begin to develop understanding of nÃ¥ma and rúpa. As the Buddha said in the “MahÃ¥-ParinibbÃ¥na suttaâ€? : be ye an island unto yourselves, a refuge unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge: with the Teaching as your island, the Teaching as your refuge, seeking no other refuge...â€? The Buddha taught us the Dhamma so that we can develop our own understanding. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Nina, I agree with everything you wrote here, but I would like to add a balancing note: As we make some progress, we aren't always drowning in a sea of concepts - sometimes we float on the surface, and, on occasion, we can see through to the bottom where there are lovely and exotic flora and fauna, and we even can dive deeply at will. Though it is delusive, concept needn't be an evil if there is adequate understanding. We do need to keep in mind that until the Dhamma has been realized directly to at least some extent, it remains part of the sea of concept, but it is a placid part that is without dangerous predators - an area that is safe, secure, and supportive provided we can learn to properly swim in it. ------------------------------------------------------------ It is essential to know the difference between the moments when we are lost in thinking of concepts and when there is awareness of just one characteristic appearing through one doorway at a time. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: On an occasion that one notes having just been lost in thought, that is a moment of mindfulness, and it is auspicious. A habit of introspection *can* be developed so that awareness of mind becomes a much more common event, This is *very* useful and really quite fascinating. I have found my developing habit of kayanupassana more and more leading into a cittanupassana that is becoming predominant. (I'm not just speaking of times of intentional meditation.) -------------------------------------------------------------- When awareness arises the characteristic of the reality that appears at the present moment is the object of awareness, and in this way one knows the difference between a moment of awareness and a moment without awareness. Paññå leads to detachment from the idea of self and also from all objects we experience. I told Acharn Sujin that I was worried about Lodewijk’s health and she answered that worry is only nÃ¥ma. I found this answer like a cold shower, a bitter medicine, but it is the truth. Even when we understand the truth in theory, we may not be ready yet to accept the truth. ------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: However, one might add that rational concern can lead to appropriate and useful action, whereas unconcern can lead to carelessness. So, all sides need to be seen, it seems to me. ------------------------------------------------------------ We find our problems most important and we are drowning in the ocean of concepts, but we should remember that there is the island of Dhamma. Acharn Sujin said that we should understand the real meaning of dukkha: the truth that there are only elements which do not last. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: And seeing that can be sukha. Seeing the fleeting, insubstantial, and impersonal nature of conditions can, quite amazingly, lead to joy, because it induces letting go and a realization of openness and freedom. ----------------------------------------------------------- We should not try to have less clinging, less worry, but understanding can be naturally developed of whatever dhamma occurs. We should have understanding of worry as only a conditioned dhamma that is already past, otherwise we cling to the idea of “my worryâ€?. What she said is deep, it is wise, it is most effective. When we were going around the Stupa in KusinÃ¥ra which commemorates the Buddha’s parinibbÃ¥na, Acharn Sujin reminded me that through the development of understanding there can be detachment from visible object and also from thinking. When I said that I find detachment most difficult, she stressed: “It has to be developed!â€? First we have only intellectual understanding of nÃ¥ma and rúpa, but understanding can be developed so that direct understanding can arise. It is bound to take a long time to become detached from realities. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Let us not hope for or attempt to will detachment. Let us just practice the Dhamma. By doing no harm and actually doing good, already some peace and joy arise which create a degree of detachment. Then by attending to the four foundations of mindfulness during periods of stillness and, as possible, at all other times as well, wisdom arises - sometimes in jumps, sometimes gradually, and from this arises further detachment. ------------------------------------------------------------- ******* Nina. ============================= Withy metta, Howard #80978 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:26 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 2. avalo1968 Hello Nina, Thank you for your reply. In my discussions with those new to Buddhism I hear frequently that people have difficulty because the understanding they get when they first encounter the Four Noble Truths is one that does not encourage them to continue their study of Buddhism. This is unfortunate and it is good to help them to understand the joy of letting go as well as the difficulty of it. Regards, Robert A. #80979 From: "Robert" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Lessons in Detachment, Ch 3, no 2. avalo1968 Hello Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Howard: > Let us not hope for or attempt to will detachment. Let us just practice > the Dhamma. By doing no harm and actually doing good, already some peace and > joy arise which create a degree of detachment. Then by attending to the four > foundations of mindfulness during periods of stillness and, as possible, at > all other times as well, wisdom arises - sometimes in jumps, sometimes > gradually, and from this arises further detachment. > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Very well said. Regards, Robert A. #80980 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] I'm back again! nilovg Venerable Pannabahulo, Thank you for posting. No, I never see disrespect in someone asking questions or disagreeing with what he reads here. Questions and remarks are appreciated. Op 10-jan-2008, om 14:49 heeft pannabahulo het volgende geschreven: > I don't need to study books to know whether mind states are kusala or akusula.To be quite honest the vast majority of (my) mind states are akusala. That's enough for me to deal with. ------ N: This shows that you have studied the teachings, otherwise you would not know this. Some people would not even admit this. I think that it is most helpful to see akusala citta as only a conditioned dhamma. This will help to dwell less on it or to worry which makes it worse. But at the same time I must say that I find it not easy to consider phenomena as mere dhammas. It is a learning process. --------- P: IMHO only practice will develop non attachment to them and so facilitate the work of mental purification.I see a tremedous sense of urgency in this.The poisoned arrow is penetrating deeply. ------- N: When we see akusala and also kusala as mere elements it will lead to detachment, I agree. Understanding leads to detachment in a natural way. -------- > p: So the vast amount of what must be going on is sutta maya > panna.There > is obviously cinta maya panna too.But, in the next life (IMHO) all > that > will be forgotten. ------ N: When what we learn is understood, it is not in vain. Understanding can be accumulated and arise in a next life. But I agree, when there is only memorisation or recitation it will be forgotten. -------- > P: The only thing that really counts is the bhavana maya > panna we develop in this one. > Please tell me what is the point of spending so much time studying > complex details that cannot be applied now in the observation of our > minds?.... ------- N: I find that some details can help us not to go wrong in the practice. Also, the details help as a foundation to understand that whatever arises is conditioned. That it cannot be manipulated. I remember a question concerning taking outside things for self. This helps us to see how deeply rooted wrong view is and this again can imbibe us with a sense of urgency to develop understanding of what appears now, even while reading or writng Emails. We do not need seclusion for that, it should not be put off to a later moment of seclusion. But I am speaking as a layperson. For a monk it is fitting to live in seclusion, not seeking company. With appreciation and respect, Nina. #80981 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] I'm back again! moellerdieter Dear Venerable Pannabahulo ( and all), thank you for this meaningful posting. It is rather close to my understanding and fitting to my present contemplation about a couple of suttas from Samyutta Nikaya ( a few quoted in my mail dated Jan 06) which so clearly talk about the necessity of developing dispassion : to see the nature of the khandas being impermanent , the conditioned mass of suffering , i.e.Dependent Orgination.. 'Being dispassionate , he detaches himself..' ' he detaches himself which he identifies himself to which he has been attached and has hold on to, thinking : this is mine, I am this , this is myself .' 'being detached he is released' , i.e. from the 5 khanda attachment , which in brief is suffering. you quoted Ajahn Cha 'Clarity of Insight' - : "By focusing awareness on the mind alone, you gain understanding and insight into the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, mind and all their objects. The mind is there already, so the important thing is to investigate right at the centre of the mind. The further you go investigating the mind itself, the clearer and more profound the insight that emerges. This is something I emphasise when teaching, because understanding this point is crucial to the practice......The important thing is to put effort into developing insight through investigation of the three characteristics.....once the mind has these characteristics, it means you no longer have to be the doer in the practice. You could say that it is as if you have finished all the work you have been doing and the only thing left is for you to leave things to themselves and watch over the mind. You don't have to be someone who is doing something anymore. There is still mental activity occurring - you experience pleasant and unpleasant sense contact according to your kammic accumulations - but you see it as "just that much" and are letting go of attachment to the sense of self the whole time." Beautifully said/quoted .. straight to the point. I hope you may find the time for further postings. with Metta Dieter #80982 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:50 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nilovg Dear Connie, This is a meditation subject for every occasion (sabbatthaa, as the co to the satipatthana sutta says and about which I talked which James. Op 10-jan-2008, om 14:46 heeft L G SAGE het volgende geschreven: > 470. "They are attached to the unsubstantial body, an aggregate of > bones and sinews, to the foul body, full of salive, tears, > excrement, and pus. > 471. "If anyone, dissecting it, were to turn it inside out, even > one's own mother, being unable to bear the smell of it, would be > disgusted. > 472. "Reflecting in a reasoned manner that the aggregates, the > elements, [and] the sense bases are conditioned state[s], have > rebirth as their root, [and] are painful, why should I wish for > marriage? -------- N: This description of the dead body brings us to the khandhas, dhatus, aayatanas now. These are conditioned dhammas and arise so long as we in the cycle. Very good how the dead body brings us to reality. That is actually the aim of all these recollections. It is more than just some wholesome thoughts. As Kh Sujin says in her book on the Perfections: samatha and vipassana develop together. Nina. #80983 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration nilovg Hi James, Op 10-jan-2008, om 2:59 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Nina, pay very close attention > to what I am going to write, all of it, not just the parts you like. > The Buddha taught: > > "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Buddha while > you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while > you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting > in your home crowded with children." > > This corresponds to what you are saying above, HOWEVER!! The Buddha > gives a stipulation about what must be done PRIOR!! to one being able > to do this: > > "One who is aroused to practice is one of conviction, not without > conviction. One aroused to practice is one with persistence aroused, > not lazy. One aroused to practice is one of established mindfulness, > not muddled mindfulness. One aroused to practice is centered in > concentration, not uncentered. One aroused to practice is discerning, > not undiscerning. -------- N: Nothing I disagree with, James. Discerning means: with wisdom. Understanding is important. -------- > > James: We all go wrong all the time anyway. At least with meditation > practice we have a chance of going right. Without it, the chance is > slim to none. ------ N: Here I am afraid I disagree. One can take for kusala what is akusala also where it meditation concerns, when understanding is lacking. 'Discerning' as we just read is necessary. -------- > > J: ps. I am going to drop the dry-insight worker thread. You say the > text means one thing and I just don't see that. Further discussion is > pointless. ------ N: I agree. I thought you would. Nina. #80984 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:46 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] First_Class Concentration Is Compulsory -- (Was) Welcome To The Theravada Fold truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Suan, > thank you for taking the trouble writing this post. > Op 10-jan-2008, om 15:01 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > > > My emphasis here is on the compulsory nature of formal development > > of each component of Noble Eightfold Path. > > > > I singled out Right Concentration because I belatedly came to notice > > some of you, Sarah, for example, trying to banish it from the Noble > > Eightfold Path by tarnishing it in order to justify their puthujjana > > teacher's stance against formal development of the path components. > ------- > N: I do not think anyone banishes right concentration, that would be > impossible. > As I see it, all factors develop together and right understanding > takes the lead. > I must confess, Suan, I have always trouble with the expression: > formal meditation. I do not see anything formal here. Mindfulness of In-&-Out Breathing "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.1 Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html Found many times and in many suttas such as mn119 and mn10. Is it formal or not? Lots of Metta, Alex #80985 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] First_Class Concentration Is Compulsory -- (Was) Welcome To The The... upasaka_howard Hi, Alex (and Nina, and Suan) - In a message dated 1/10/2008 3:46:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Suan, > thank you for taking the trouble writing this post. > Op 10-jan-2008, om 15:01 heeft abhidhammika het volgende geschreven: > > > My emphasis here is on the compulsory nature of formal development > > of each component of Noble Eightfold Path. > > > > I singled out Right Concentration because I belatedly came to notice > > some of you, Sarah, for example, trying to banish it from the Noble > > Eightfold Path by tarnishing it in order to justify their puthujjana > > teacher's stance against formal development of the path components. > ------- > N: I do not think anyone banishes right concentration, that would be > impossible. > As I see it, all factors develop together and right understanding > takes the lead. > I must confess, Suan, I have always trouble with the expression: > formal meditation. I do not see anything formal here. Mindfulness of In-&-Out Breathing "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to be of great fruit, of great benefit? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore.1 Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html Found many times and in many suttas such as mn119 and mn10. Is it formal or not? Lots of Metta, Alex =============================== Let's look at that last paragraph: "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out." Jon, and maybe Nina also, will rely on the phrase "there is the case that" to support a claim that something is referred to here that is other than intentional, conventional human action. But consider someone going to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, then sitting down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore, and then, always mindful, breathing in and out. How in the world is that anything other than intentional, conventional human action? How is it any less intentional and any less conventional than going into the computer room, sitting down, accessing DSG, and then replying to a post? What makes a conventional activity "formal"? I can't think of anything other than it being carried out intentionally, methodically, and according to a prescribed approach. Certainly, then much of what the Buddha teaches in, for example, the Anapanasati Sutta is formal meditation. Just look at the description there, and one will see intentional action that is also methodical and according to a prescribed approach. It is formal meditation being taught. With metta, Howard #80986 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:57 pm Subject: Re: First_Class Concentration Is Compulsory -- (Was) Welcome To The The... philofillet Hi Howard, Alex, Nina, Suan and all Please allow me to pile on. Howard > Certainly, then much of what the Buddha teaches in, > for example, the Anapanasati Sutta is formal meditation. Just look at the > description there, and one will see intentional action that is also methodical and > according to a prescribed approach. It is formal meditation being taught. I think some people will still interpret this sutta as descriptive. "Breathing in long, he understands: 'I breathe in long.'" This can be and be will by some people and perhaps (possibly) should be interpreted as descriptive. I think it's when we look at all the detailed meditation instructions in Vism. that a wish to deny that a formal, methodic approach to meditation is taught becomes absurd. To be honest, my approach to meditation is pretty slack. While it helps me a lot, I think it would be possible to fruitfully practice Dhamma without it. This is beacause I know that the impediments to jhanas lalid out in Vism are very, very strong for me and I know how strong my hindrances are. (Especially sloth and torpor, I feel asleep all the time during meditation, whether I'm tired to begin with or not.) So I don't write this out of a wish to defend meditation to the death. The thing that gets me is a believability, or trustworthiness issue. I have a feeling I will be discussing Dhamma with students of AS for the rest of my life, and I would be able to feel more trustful of them as good Dhamma friends if they didn't stick on this point in such a deluded (in my opinion) way. As I've said before, there are clear impedidements to meditation laid out in Vism. If people want to question the value or suitability of formal meditation, fine, but to deny that it is taught in the ancient texts is - to use a word I've used before and can use in a friendly way - just plain *nutty* and feels a little like cultish brainwashing or something. That scares me when I see it in my friends. :) Metta, Phil #80987 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Acharn chah: Ignorance......wrong concentration buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 10-jan-2008, om 2:59 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > > > Nina, pay very close attention > > to what I am going to write, all of it, not just the parts you like. > > The Buddha taught: > > > > "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Buddha while > > you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while > > you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting > > in your home crowded with children." > > > > This corresponds to what you are saying above, HOWEVER!! The Buddha > > gives a stipulation about what must be done PRIOR!! to one being able > > to do this: > > > > "One who is aroused to practice is one of conviction, not without > > conviction. One aroused to practice is one with persistence aroused, > > not lazy. One aroused to practice is one of established mindfulness, > > not muddled mindfulness. One aroused to practice is centered in > > concentration, not uncentered. One aroused to practice is discerning, > > not undiscerning. > -------- > N: Nothing I disagree with, James. Discerning means: with wisdom. > Understanding is important. > -------- LOL! Darn it! You only saw what you wanted to see, AGAIN! The Buddha also describes the necessity of: conviction, persistence, mindfulness, and concentration- not just understanding! Metta, James #80988 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:16 am Subject: Coincident Cross-Consistency! bhikkhu0 Friends: BUDDHISM & MODERN COSMOLOGY. Modern cosmology have recently found out that the universe is not in a steady state, but undergoes periodic expansion (big bang) and contraction. The Buddha told of this > 2500 years ago …!!! Since he explained awakened memory so: He recalls to mind his various temporary states in days gone by - one birth, or two or three or four or 5 births, 10 or 20, 30 or fifty, a 100 or a 1000 or a 100.000 births, through many aeons of cosmic contraction & many aeons of cosmic expansion. Now there comes a time, friends, when, sooner or later, after the lapse of a long, long period of contraction, this world-system passes away. And when this happens beings have mostly been reborn in the World of Radiance, and there they dwell made of mind, feeding on joy, radiating light from themselves, traversing the air, dwelling in glory; and thus they remain for a long, long period of time. Now there comes also a time, friends, when, sooner or later, this world-system begins to re-evolve by expansion. Source: Digha Nikaya 1: Brahma-Jala Sutta -ooOoo- BUDDHISM & MODERN PHYSICS-1: Time & space are not universal! Albert Einstein presented the special & general relativity theory almost a hundred years ago. Still the philosophical implications is only known by few mathematicians. Mainly Einstein's relativity theory points out that time & locality in space cannot be regarded independent if the observer & object is moving fast relative to each other. Differently moving observers will experience different speeds of time even when using the same watches. They will disagree on the order of different events. A 'Universal' or ‘Absolute’ time does not exist: Buddha also told about this > 2500 years ago when comparing life-lengths of beings: Bhikkhus, 50 human years is one night & day to the four guardian gods. 500 of those divine years are the life span of the four guardian gods. Bhikkhus, 1600 human years is one night and day to the gods with power over to other's beings mental creations. 16 thousand of those divine years are the life span of these gods. (Paranimmita-vasavatti-deva)" Source: Anguttara Nikaya III.71: Muluposatha Sutta; The Roots of the Uposatha BUDDHISM & MODERN PHYSICS-2: Matter is quanta of discrete events and not a permanent substance! Another implication of both Einstein's theory & also of quantum mechanics is that matter cannot truly be regarded to be continuously existing neither in time nor in space. A movement of a body is therefore absolutely speaking events of disappearance in one place & its re-arising in the next place. This process is though so incredible fast that we experience it as continuous moving existence. This discreteness of quantum theory is also found exactly so explained in the Higher Buddha-Dhamma ie: The Abhidhamma consider movement of a body of matter to be a serial decay & re-arising in adjacent locations… The world blinks rather than endures… -ooOoo- So modern Science even regarding physical phenomena (Buddhist concept: rupa=’form’) is not so 'Modern' after all! Most seem to rediscovering of what was known already millenniums ago but now ignored & forgotten... We are going in ring! How comic ;-) -ooOoo- Sincerely, yours : - ] Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #80989 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:36 pm Subject: Re: I'm back again! buddhatrue Hi Ven. Pannabahulo, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > That's enough for me to deal with. IMHO only practice will develop non > attachment to them and so facilitate the work of mental purification.I > see a tremedous sense of urgency in this.The poisoned arrow is > penetrating deeply. > What sayest thou? > With metta and every blessing, Thank you for the very nice post. I am glad that your practice is bearing fruit again. It's important to stick with it even when we go through a long, dry spell. And, if something isn't working, then its time to try something else. Like Achan Chah, I believe that the Abhidhamma is potentially dangerous for the intellectual type of personality. By studying the Abhidhamma and memorizing all it has to say, intellectual types believe that they have achieved "understanding" or panna. They become panna junkies who just can't stop reading, studying, and discussing because it gives them a temporary high (slight supression of the defilements). However, the understanding they get is just intellectual knowledge, not real understanding. When they die, it will all be lost (as you point out). But, explaining this to them doesn't do any good. Have you ever tried to talk sense to a junkie?? Metta, James #80990 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:55 pm Subject: Re: I'm back again! philofillet Hi James, Ven. Pannabahulo and all > However, the > understanding they get is just intellectual knowledge, not real > understanding. When they die, it will all be lost (as you point out). This is an interesting point. I guess it is debatable whether it is lost or not, but even assuming the intellectual content is lost, one thing that certainly isn't lost is kamma conditioned by the intellectual understanding. I find that when one's mind is absorbed with intellectual understanding of the Buddha's teaching, one is less likely to do, speak and think in an unwholesome way. It is a kind of protection against that. and for other reasons too I think it's good to develop a fully-rounded intellectualy understanding of all aspects of the tipitaka, including abhidhamma. I'm not quite sure why yet, but I think it's good and I aim to do it. I agree though that when it's all intellectual, it feels like it's all in the head. One thing I always notice since I started meditating again is that the Dhamma feels more centred in the body, and less in the head. I think this will be helpful when dealing with the pain that will almost surely come up when dying. I'm afraid intellectual understanding just wouldn't stand up to that....mindfulness centred in the body, described as a solid wood door that can stand up to things, that sutta, that comes to mind a lot.... Metta, Phil #80991 From: "robmoult" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:03 pm Subject: Charts for Ven. Pannabahulo robmoult Venerable Sir. I have uploaded a few charts into the files section of DSG. They are titled "z-Charts.PPT". I used Arial font so I had to ignore some of the Pali accents. I hope that these are of some use to you. Metta, Rob M :-) #80992 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:41 pm Subject: Re: I'm back again! rjkjp1 Dear Venerable If you have time perhaps you could review this essay on my website, by Venerable Dhammadharo. He was student of A. Sujin for many years and had a good understanding of her teaching. I think it pertains to your comments below: http://www.abhidhamma.org/be%20here%20now.htm with respect Robert --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > My dear Dhamma friends, > > Firstly I want to say a big "Thank you" for Sarah's latest posting to > me and also to Nina who asked "Why wait until February before you ask > your questions?" > I want to stress that, in asking my questions, I do not > want any of you to think that I am showing any disrespect to anyone. #80993 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:55 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [d-l] Fwd: Standing A Young Woman Up .... In My Dream This Morning sarahprocter... Hi Scott (& Suan & all Dreamers), --- Scott Duncan wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thanks for the following: > > "But how, then does profitable and unprofitable kama done in a dream > have result or no result? It has result. But owing to weakness it > cannot bring about rebirth linking. But when rebirth linking has been > given by other kamma, it may be experienced during the course [of an > existence]." > > Scott: The whole section is very interesting. <...> > 2057. Herein, in one doing in a dream [such things as] paying homage > at shrines, listening to the Law, preaching the Law, etc., it is > profitable; in one doing [such things as] killing of living things, it > is unprofitable; when free from either extreme, at the moment of > advertence and registration it is indeterminate. It should be > understood this way. At the time of saying: 'It was as though seen by > me, heard by me in a dream,' it is indeterminate only." > > Scott: One can imagine that what we refer to as 'R.E.M..' sleep is > being discussed. .... S: Yes. .... >I like how the distinction is made here. Dreamless > sleep seems to consist of bhavanga citta ... S: Yes, Bhavanga cittas only. ... >and while dreaming seems to > involve normal processes within the mind-door only (I assume this > since the senses are not involved as in waking. .... S: Yes. .... > In what way is kamma produced by thoughts? .... S: It depends on the intensity or extreme of such thoughts as to whether they produce kamma which can have results. Usually, by themselves they don't, when there is no harming of others. There was a couple of high-profile case in court here recently in which a vicious attack on a rival was defended (successfully) as having been conduct in sleep. Of course, the only fair arbitor is kamma! However, as we read in the texts, extreme wrong views and extreme lobha or dosa can (with other support conditions) be strong enough to bring about results, just as any other akusala kamma patha (i.e. cetana) can which has been accumulated. Likewise, alobha, adosa or panna can bring about results. Not sure if this has answered the question (and apologies for the delay - it got 'buried'). As for the danger of waking 'dreaming', Connie posted a great installment: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/79989 >395. "Yathaa haritaalena makkhita.m, addasa cittika.m bhittiyaa kata.m; tamhi te vipariitadassana.m, sa~n~naa maanusikaa niratthikaa. 393. Just as you might see a picture painted on a wall, smeared on with yellow orpiment, your view of this is wrong. The perception they are human beings is groundless. <...> 396. "Maaya.m viya aggato kata.m, supinanteva suva.n.napaadapa.m; upagacchasi andha rittaka.m, janamajjheriva rupparuupaka.m. 394. You blind one! You run after an empty thing, like an illusion placed in front of you, like a golden tree in a dream, like silver [coins] in the midst of people.< .... Metta, Sarah p.s. Suan, I'm always glad to read your comments. Could you give a link or a quote from any message of mine which suggests a "trying to banish it [Right Concentration] from the Noble Eightfold Path". I'd like to see where I could have given you such an impression. Also, did you see my earlier response to your previous message? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/80778 ================== #80994 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:59 pm Subject: Re: I'm back again! kenhowardau --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > My dear Dhamma friends, <. . .> > IMHO only practice will develop non > attachment to them and so facilitate the work of mental purification.I > see a tremedous sense of urgency in this.The poisoned arrow is > penetrating deeply. > What sayest thou? > Dear Venerable Pannabahulo I say stick with it. Try to see what K Sujin and her students can see. The way "practice" is described in the ancient commentaries is very different from the way most modern-day teachers describe practice. By not departing in any way from the Pali texts K Sujin is in a tiny minority. But anyone who perseveres, and finally sees what she and the ancient commentaries (and, I would say, the Dhamma as a whole) are saying, will never regret it. I have been watching closely, and I am satisfied that none of K Sujin's detractors know what she and the ancient commentaries are saying. None of them! They all think that the only alternative to formal practice is no practice at all. They cannot see a middle way. Ken H #80995 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anatta as a strategy sarahprocter... Hi Alex, Good to see you back from your retreat and thanks for catching up with all the posts, inc. the ones I wrote to you. --- Alex wrote: > For some it may be too technical. However for others it may be more > towards the "Parable of being shot with an Arrow" shelf. What is your > Goal, to know intellectually (which can be dangerous, see the simile > of the snake) or to have a DIRECT & LIBERATING experience? ... S: Scott and I were discussing the characteristic of panna (right understanding), as it arises in different kinds of bhavana (mental development). Without an appreciation and understanding of the importance and quality of panna in 'meditation' (whether here or on retreat), what is taken for calm, seclusion, samatha, vipassana, mediation or anything else wholesome is likely to be wrong. .... > > After all, there is a BIG difference between mere intellectual > knowledge and ONE'S OWN KNOWLEDGE gained through N8P rather than > counting someone else's cows. .... S: While it's all still 'ONE'S OWN KNOWLEDGE', me and others, my cows and their cows, it indicates there is not even 'mere intellectual knowledge' about the Path and its factors. .... > > The strongest and the best Panna is gained through Samma-Samadhi (as > well as the other 7 factors of N8P). One of the awesome features of > the suttas is that they guide towards the LIBERATING EXPERIENCE. ... S: Panna is developed through a growing accumulation of panna. This can only be by hearing, considering and understanding more about what is real now. I've asked you before, but let me do so again: What is real now? Considering and understanding the dhammas appearing as we read and type now is the way that 'panna is gained'. At such moments there is samma-samadhi. In spite of all your protestations, I'm glad to see that actually you are considering and reflecting on a lot of Abhidhamma in the suttas and in your daily life, Alex! Metta, Sarah ======== #80996 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:14 am Subject: Re: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > > S: Looking at the first sutta in Salayatanavagga, SN, 'The > impermanent', > > it refers to how the inner ayatanas, such as eye-sense, body-sense > and > > mind (i.e cittas) are impermanent. > >>> > > Is this impermanence of the sense organs and sense data (large scale). > Or is it super radical impermanence. .... S: I don't understand your question. The impermanence the Buddha taught refers to the arising and passaing away of dhammas, including eye-sense, visible object, seeing consciousness and so on. In order to understand the characteristic of impermanence (of such dhammas), these dhammas therefore have to be understood for what they are - transitory elements. .... > > BTW, how long does each 'dhamma' lasts? ... Each dhamma is far quicker than anything we can describe. However, visible object which appears now has a characteristic which can be known. As the panna grows, the impermanence of visible object can be known too. When panna arises, there's no thought of 'how long?'. Metta, Sarah ======== #80997 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Absorption 'Concentration' Vs Buddha's wise Jhanic Ecstasy sarahprocter... Hi Alex, --- Alex wrote: > >S: Ekaggata cetasika arises with every single citta, including akusala > > cittas. When there is anger or greed, there is ekaggata. No calm or > > tranquility at such moments. > > .... > > >>> > >A: We are talking about different "ekaggata's" then. .... S: No surprise there! .... > > >A: Remember, Buddha has NEVER taught access or momentary or (even > > > worse) fixed absorption 'concentration' which is more like > aversion > > > rather than true insight. > > ... > > S: I think you are misunderstanding these terms. You often, often > refer to > > the jhana. When there is jhana, there is absorption concentration > (appana > > samadhi). There is never aversion with appana samadhi. > > > >A: Appana, Khanika or Upacara Samadhi were never mentioned in the suttas. ... S: Well, you were the one who introduced the terms above and then gave a definition of absorption concentration:-/ ... > > >A: So do Jhana (Ecstasy) instead! Do it in a proper way as is said > >>in the suttas. > > ... > > S: No one *does* Jhana in anyway! Just conditioned states arising > and falling away, Alex. No atta anywhere to be found or anything to > *do*. >A: You are mistaking my conventional speech for absolute one. With this, > you'll misinterpret all or most of my posts. ... S: In that case let's talk absolute dhammas for a change. In absolute terms, what do you mean when you say 'do Jhana'? Who or what 'does Jhana'? I'd like your clarification on this. Metta, Sarah ======= #80998 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:32 am Subject: Re: [dsg] This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said sarahprocter... Hi Alex, You wrote above: 'This teacher or that teacher VS what the Buddha has actually said' How about we re-name it: 'A very modern interpretation by various scholars and students VS The Buddha's teachings as clarified in the Tipitaka and ancient commentaries'? --- Alex wrote: > Then the Blessed One said to Ven. Ananda, "Now, if it occurs to any > of you — 'The teaching has lost its authority; we are without a > Teacher' — do not view it in that way. Whatever Dhamma & Vinaya I > have pointed out & formulated for you, that will be your Teacher when > I am gone. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.16.5-6.than.html#chap5 > (Dhamma = Suttas ONLY) ... S: No. Dhamma-Vinaya refers to the TI-Pitaka, not a new Dvi-Pitaka as some would prefer. As I recently quoted to another friend: >Atthasalini (commentary to the Dhammasangani), Introductory discourse (PTS transl): [referring to the reciting of the Abhidhamma at the First Council]: "Thus at the time of the Rehearsal at the First Council, held by the five hundred, the company of the self-controlled who recited under the presidency of Mahaakassapa did so after previous determination: '[This is the Doctrine, this is the Vinaya], these are the first words, these the middle words, these the later words of the Buddha; this is the Vinaya-Pitaka, this the Suttanta-Pitaka, this the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, this the Diigha Nikaaya.....Khuddaka Nikaaya; these the nine parts, to wit, the Suttas, etc.; these the eightly-four thousand units of text.' And not only this: the various literary expedients appearing in the three Pi.takas such as the lists of contents (uddaana), chapters (vagga), elisions (peyyaala), sections (nipaata) of single, double subjects, etc., groups (sa.myutta), fifties (pa~n~naasa) - all this having been arranged, was rehearsed in seven months." Metta, Sarah ======== #80999 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] thoughts on practice sarahprocter... Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Larry: "Heightened" is my own term. Maybe there is something in Pali?? > It is meant to distinguish a level of concentration that is more intense > than the ordinary concentration that arises with every consciousness. It > can be either wholesome or unwholesome. Even in the act of robbing a > bank it could be wholesome or unwholesome. The unwholesome is with > hindrances and the wholesome is without hindrances. A bank robber could > hold his weapon with perfect purity, like a samurai. But if the samurai > is proud, that is impure, unwholesome concentration. ... S: Fine. As you say, such 'heightened concentration' can be pure or impure. Usually, the latter. I don't know a Pali term. Of course, concentration can be strong or weak, focussed on one object or idea or many objects or ideas. .... > > Sarah: "You go on to say that 'heightened concentration is what we mean > by 'mindfulness'. So this common meaning of mindfulness is very > different from sati (awareness) in the teachings then?" > > Larry: Actually, I have a quibble about "mindfulness". "Sati" is often > translated as "mindfulness". but what people usually mean by > "mindfulness" is paying attention to something. IMO this is > concentration. ... S: Again, I agree, almost always unwholesome concentration and unwise attention, however worthy it may seem! For example, whilst cooking, driving, studying for an exam or talking on the phone, unless the cittas are dana, sila or bhavana, then any 'paying attention' is unwholesome. (Remember, there is manasikara (attention) with each citta too.)This doesn't mean there should be a change from such activities. It means that any time, like now there are dhammas appearing and there can be wise attention, wise considering and understanding of such dhammas. .... >"Sati" is actually recollection and recognition. I would > classify it as the first three insights, called "tender insight": > determination of namarupa, dependent arising, and what is path and not > path. Insight knowledge I would classify as right view in the 8-fold > path. .... S: Sati is awareness - it 'remembers' to be aware. It arises with all wholesome cittas, even those without any panna at all. We cannot classify it as the first three (tender) insights. These however are insight knowledge, vipassana panna. .... > > Sarah: "This is why people have an idea of losing ones keys or > forgetting the shopping list as being indications of a lack of > mindfulness. Nothing to do with sati or (kusala) samadhi then?" > > Larry: I think absent mindedness is okay. We don't need a lot of mind > for wholesome concentration. It isn't meant to make us more efficient. ... S: Good point! The aim is not wordly efficiency, but wise attention with understanding. The wise attention can slip in anytime, even when looking for the keys. ... > > These thoughts were mostly focused on practice as the practice of > concentration. Insight may or may not arise. ... S: As I've been stressing to others, right concentration cannot develop without right understanding (whether we're talking about the development of samatha or the development of satipatthana). .... >In some sense it isn't even > important. ... S: I think these are important points to discuss and clarify - otherwise people just focus and concentrate with a mistake idea that if the object is one mentioned in the texts, then it must be wholesome. .... >In my own limited experience insight has arisen only in > recognizing hindrances, and even then only on a very shallow level. For > me, the value of concentration is in momentarily being free from > hindrances rather than entering an exotic meditative state (jhana). ... S: Even if there is an aim of being very temporarily free from hindrances, we should consider whether it's kusala or akusala. It's easy to be misled by a desire for such. Thanks for your helpful clarifications, Larry. I've let the other thread with the article slide because I think Nina and Howard picked up the main points. Is there anything else here to discuss further or from your original reflections? I've enjoyed discussing this first part with you. Metta, Sarah ========