#81200 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka. was: TYPO FIX upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/15/2008 9:34:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, You and I talk about kamma and vipaaka in different ways and thus misunderstandings result. I only want to approach this subject by way of paramattha dhammas. I do not mind to go over this subject from the beginning, but I do not know whether this has your interest? I ask this since you find this nitpicking, and this is all right with me too. I find that one has to be very precise in order to have more understanding of the complex subject of kamma and vipaka. I do not pretend to understand all, far from it. Only at the first stage of insight there is deeper understanding of kamma and vipaka. But, depending on your interest I could say a little more, approaching it as paramattha dhammas. Nina. ============================== I'm really not so interested in discussing what we've not observed and are unlikely to be observing any time soon. My only aim was to point out that volition leads to consequences, including sights, sounds, tastes, smells, thoughts, emotions, feeling, and so on of particular sorts. My only point is that kamma is the means by which "we" influence the course of events. If you agree that this is so, then there is nothing further to discuss in this regard, it seems to me. If you disagree, then we are so far apart that there is also nothing further to discuss in this regard. As for understanding the subject of kamma and vipaka, I prefer to come to understand it more by watching what actually arises in this body-mind than by reading. When I observe the impulse to turn around and note the immediate bodily reaction, I see kamma and vipaka directly. With metta, Howard #81201 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:42 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? truth_aerator Dear Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > Scott: Its not my concern but I think you ought to take care with what > you imagine about Nanavira. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > But you brought this issue up! How can it not be your concern? Anyhow same can be said about you "I think you ought to take care with what you imagine about Nanavira." Lots of Metta & Compassion, Alex #81202 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:02 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 4, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, This sutta exhorts us not to be negligent in kusala, but to perform good deeds through body, speech and mind whenever there is an opportunity. In India we were often disturbed by beggars who would touch us, or even push us or make us stumble while we were walking to the holy places. Conceit is bound to arise while we are thinking: why are they doing this to us? We cling to the importance of self and this can condition aversion, dosa. Such situations are a test for our patience. If there would be less clinging to a person or a self there would be more conditions for kusala citta. Wrong view of personality, sakkaya ditthi, is a main cause of many other defilements. The sotåpanna who has eradicated wrong view cannot transgress the five precepts anymore, he does not steal, kill, lie or harm other beings by evil deeds. I am inclined to be angry because of what others do to me. I am thinking of a situation and I blame others. I am always thinking of other people as being the cause of my aversion. This kind of thinking is not helpful to cure anger. The Buddha taught us that anger arises with the citta and that it has nothing to do with the outward circumstances and other people. Anger has become a habit, because formerly we were angry many times. We accumulated this inclination from life to life. There are conditions for its arising, it is conditioned by lobha, attachment. When things are not the way we would like them to be we have aversion. It is also conditioned by ignorance of realities. Aversion, dosa, and attachment, lobha, are real for everybody, no matter how we call them. They are not situations, they are not persons, not conventional realities. They are real in the ultimate sense. It is important to learn their different characteristics when they appear. In this way there can be right understanding of dhammas as impersonal elements, not self or mine. I said to Acharn Sujin that I cling to people who are dear to me, that I cling to the idea of a person. She said: is seeing Nina, is hearing Nina? The answer is no, these cittas arise and fall away immediately. Whatever appears does so because of its own conditions, and this can help us to have a certain degree of detachment, although it is mostly on the level of intellectual understanding. The purpose of the teachings is not to stop thinking, clinging to persons or worrying about them, but to understand such moments as dhammas arising because of their own conditions. We cling to insignificant dhammas that do not last, not even a splitsecond. It is beneficial to learn their true nature of anattå, non-self. When we do not cling to people and are not absorbed in situations there are more opportunities for the Brahma vihåras of mettå, karuna (compassion), muditå (sympathetic joy) and upekkhå (equanimity). When mettå arises, we do not expect kindness from other people. If they do not like our generosity or help, we should not mind. Understanding of realities is the foremost condition of seeing the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala, and it helps us not to take kusala and akusala for self. ******* Nina. #81203 From: "rahula_80" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:57 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? rahula_80 Hi, > "chandamúlaká ávuso sabbe dhammá"[18] (A. X,53 (v,107))? > If we would not include nibbána there then why should we propose to do > so in sabbe dhammá anattá > All things, friend, are rooted in desire > http://nanavira.110mb.com/letter-2.htm Actually, this is not written by Bhikkhu Nanavira, but Sámanera Bodhesako in "A letter on Sankhara". Now, the answer to the question why is simply that the Buddha is a human. When he said sabbe sankhara.....sabbe dhamma....he was being spesific. When he said "chandamúlaká ávuso sabbe dhammá", he simply mean everything in the conventional way of speaking. It would be funny to say "chandamúlaká ávuso sabbe sankhara". Also, it lacks the power to bring any efect to the audience. It's like saying, "let go of everything". we don't say, "let go of all sankhara". That would sound awkward and it doesn't bring the point home to the listener. And it would be silly to asked, "how do we let go of Nibbana, if Nibbana is part of everything?" Nibbana is not something you can clung to. The nibbana that can be clung to is not nibbana, but rather, probably the conception etc. Bhikku Thanissaro wrote: "The only thing not rooted in desire is nirvana, for it's the end of all phenomena and lies even beyond the Buddha's use of the word "all." But the path that takes you to nirvana is rooted in desire. " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/pushinglimits.ht ml In the footnote of AN 3.134, Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote: "The suttas are inconsistent on the question of whether Unbinding counts as a phenomenon (dhamma). Iti 90, among others, states clearly that it is. AN 10.58, however, calls Unbinding the ending of all phenomena. Sn 5.6 quotes the Buddha as calling the attainment of the goal the transcending of all phenomena, just as Sn 4.6 and Sn 4.10 state that the arahant has transcended dispassion, said to be the highest phenomenon. If the former definition applies here, Unbinding would be not-self. If the latter, the word phenomenon (as more inclusive than fabrication) would apply to the non-returner's experience of the Deathless (see AN 9.36). The arahant's experience of Unbinding would be neither self nor not-self, as it lies beyond all designations (see DN 15)." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.134.than.html Venerable Dhammanando commented in another discussion group: "The Itivuttaka passage cited by Thanissaro will alone suffice to prove that nibbaana is a dhamma (in the sense of sabhaavadhamma). As for the remaining passages that Thanissaro alleges are "inconsistent" with this claim, from the Mahavihara point of view they are nothing of the kind; rather, the word "dhamma" in these passages is being used in other senses than sabhaavadhamma." Regards, Rahula #81204 From: "rahula_80" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:14 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? rahula_80 Hi, I think Venerable nanavira might have solve the problem for us: Nibbana and Anatta http://www.quangduc.com/English/psychology/16nirvana.html At this website: http://www.nanavira.org/ Click, "Early Writings". Regards, Rahula #81205 From: Dieter Möller Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? moellerdieter Hi Rahula (all), thanks for the link .. well said by the Venerable ..e.g. : " snip ...Depending upon whether water is present or not, a piece of cloth may be either wet or dry; there is no third possibility: and it might seem that this alternative applies to all things. Whatever is not wet must be dry; whatever is not dry must be wet. Just so, it may be thought that whatever is not attá must be anattá, and whatever is not anattá must be attá. Since we cannot say 'nibbána is attá', it follows that nibbána must be anattá. But suppose a hole is made in the cloth by cutting a small piece of material from the middle: though the cloth itself must indeed be either wet or dry, the hole, as such, is neither. A hole is a negative, an absence of some material substance -- in this case, of cotton threads --, and we cannot ascribe to it qualities, such as wet and dry, that properly apply only to actual material substance. Nibbána, like the hole in the cloth, is a negative, an absence of what formerly was present; and attá and anattá can properly apply -- attá mistakenly, and anattá correctly -- only to the positive five aggregates. The attempt to ascribe these attributes to nibbána lands us in absurdities..snip )" unquote Isn't that 'one is differentiating non-differentiation' ? ! ..see following sutta ( A iv.173 (?) ): MahaKotthita: With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six spheres of contact (vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection) is it the case that there is anything else? Sariputta: Do not say that, my friend. MahaKotthita: With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six spheres of contact, is it the case that there is not anything else? Sariputta: Do not say that, my friend. MahaKotthita: ...is it the case that there both is & is not anything else? Sariputta: Do not say that, my friend. MahaKotthita: ...is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else? Sariputta: Do not say that, my friend. MahaKotthita: Being asked... if there is anything else, you say 'Do not say that, my friend.' Being asked... if there is not anything else... if there both is & is not anything else... if there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, 'Do not say that, my friend.' Now, how is the meaning of this statement to be understood? Sariputta: Saying... is it the case that there is anything else... is it the case that there is not anything else... is it the case that there both is & is not anything else... is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else, one is differentiating non-differentiation. However far the six spheres of contact go, that is how far differentiation goes. However far differentiation goes, that is how far the six spheres of contact go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six spheres of contact, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of differentiation. with Metta Dieter #81206 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:00 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? truth_aerator Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Rahula (all), > > thanks for the link .. > > well said by the Venerable ..e.g. : > > " snip ...Depending upon whether water is present or not, a piece of cloth may be either wet or dry; there is no third possibility: and it might seem that this alternative applies to all things. Whatever is not wet must be dry; whatever is not dry must be wet. Just so, it may be thought that whatever is not attá must be anattá, and whatever is not anattá must be attá. Since we cannot say 'nibbána is attá', it follows that nibbána must be anattá. But suppose a hole is made in the cloth by cutting a small piece of material from the middle: though the cloth itself must indeed be either wet or dry, the hole, as such, is neither. A hole is a negative, an absence of some material substance -- in this case, of cotton threads --, and we cannot ascribe to it qualities, such as wet and dry, that properly apply only to actual material substance. Nibbána, like the hole in the cloth, is a negative, an absence of what formerly was present; and attá and anattá can properly apply -- attá mistakenly, and anattá correctly -- only to the positive five aggregates. The attempt to ascribe these attributes to nibbána lands us in absurdities..snip )" > unquote > > Isn't that 'one is differentiating non-differentiation' ? ! ..see following sutta ( A iv.173 (?) ): >>>> This is similiar to what I was saying to Scott, "There is no concern of Atta or Anatta" in Nibbana. Or it could be said that "Nibbana is beyond "atta, anatta, and their permutations". >>>> > MahaKotthita: > > Being asked... if there is anything else, you say 'Do not say that, my friend.' Being asked... if there is not anything else... if there both is & is not anything else... if there neither is nor is not anything else, you say, 'Do not say that, my friend.' Now, how is the meaning of this statement to be understood? > > Sariputta: > > Saying... is it the case that there is anything else... is it the case that there is not anything else... is it the case that there both is & is not anything else... is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else, one is differentiating non- differentiation. However far the six spheres of contact go, that is how far differentiation goes. However far differentiation goes, that is how far the six spheres of contact go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six spheres of contact, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of differentiation. > > Exactly. Lots of Metta, Alex #81207 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:30 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka. was: TYPO FIX nilovg Hi Howard, Op 15-jan-2008, om 15:52 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I'm really not so interested in discussing what we've not observed and > are unlikely to be observing any time soon. My only aim was to > point out that > volition leads to consequences, including sights, sounds, tastes, > smells, > thoughts, emotions, feeling, and so on of particular sorts. -------- N: Good, except thoughts and emotions. Those belong to the active side of life, are kusala or akusala. ------ > H: My only point is > that kamma is the means by which "we" influence the course of > events. If you > agree that this is so, then there is nothing further to discuss in > this regard, > it seems to me. ------- N: There is a but. We never know which kamma of the past brings about its result, and when. This is the field of the Buddhas, it belongs to the unthinkables. Thinking about it can lead to madness. Say, I perform kusala kamma, helping others, etc. But I may not influence the course of events in the world. That depends on other conditions. Others may be unwilling to receive help. ------- > H: If you disagree, then we are so far apart that there is also > nothing further to discuss in this regard. ------- N: Partly agree, partly disagree. ------- > H: As for understanding the subject > of kamma and vipaka, I prefer to come to understand it more by > watching what > actually arises in this body-mind than by reading. When I observe > the impulse > to turn around and note the immediate bodily reaction, I see kamma > and vipaka > directly. ------- N: I do not understand what you mean by bodily reaction and seeing kamma and vipaka directly. The Buddha gave the advice to perform kusala through body, speech and mind. Kusala kamma. But as to the vipaaka, see above. Why should we know? We know in general what the Buddha taught: good deeds bring good results, bad deeds bring bad results. Is that not enough? When the neighbour's children are too much jumping, I turn on my organ music I copied on the computer. This does not mean I control vipaaka through the ears. There are countless moments of hearing which are vipaaka, but who knows what is kusala vipaaka and what akusala vipaaka among these countless moments of hearing of organ music. Thinking of the music, even hearing a melody is not hearing but it is thinking with attachment. In between my back may be aching, akusala vipaaka through the body and immediately aversion, but who can distinguish these moments ? It is really hard. Or acar outside brakes loudly. All such moments arise because of their own conditions, and who could control them? I need not watch or observe vipaaka, but it is good to know when the citta is kusala, when akusala, when vipaaka.They are different. I see it all very momentary. Not in the way of situations, that is thinking, and this usually with akusala. ------ Nina. > #81208 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Some Suggestions! nilovg Dear Nitesh, Op 15-jan-2008, om 7:39 heeft kanchaa het volgende geschreven: > All of the sudden, I realize, I am unconsious again.Keeping oneself > conscious full time, at the moment, I cannot. At this stage, is > avoiding/ running away from the scene/place that irritates you is > right thing to do? Or any suggestions. ------- Nina: I think you mean by conscious: mindful. You notice you cannot and that is good. We can learn that there is no self who has sati. Besides, we better understand more about sati of satipatthana, and what the objects are. You followed discussions before, I think. We cannot be mindful at all times and that is not the aim. The aim is understanding. If one is running away one may meet another bad situation, who can tell? Better is to understand that whatever happens is conditioned, beyond control. -------- > > Nitesh: Can anyone suggest me the literature of 4 Noble Truths in > detail? ------ N: You can find in the suttas many explanations, beginning with Kindred Sayings V, Setting in Motion the Wheel of dhamma: Dhamma cakkha pavattana sutta. The Buddha's first sutta. We should not forget that there are three rounds of understanding the four noble Truths. I quote from a former post: Nina. #81209 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:27 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: D.O. Patisambhidamagga. nilovg Hi Tep and Scott, Op 15-jan-2008, om 5:10 heeft Tep Sastri het volgende geschreven: > I like the Arahant Sariputta's explanation that rebirth-linking is > not only the starting consciousness of this present life, but also > any consciousness that arises in the present life as well as in the > future. > I also like to know that : 1) the five dhammas in being before this > life are conditions for rebirth-linking here; 2) the five dhammas in > being here are conditions for rebirth-linking in the future; 3) the > five dhammas in being here have their conditions in kamma done in the > present life; 4) the five dhammas in being to rearise in the future > have their conditions in kamma done here. ------- N: He translates bhava as being. In being-as-action: kamma bhava, kamma process becoming. in being-as-rearising: upapatti bhava: rebirth becoming (result). As you know in D.O. there are these two meanings of bhava, becoming. This may not be clear in this translation. ------ As to ceto: this can stand for citta, sometimes translated as heart or mind. Just as is the case with citta this can stand for samaadhi. Like in adhicitta sikkhaa. Cetovimutti. Ven. Henepola, p. 12: he says that there are two aspects of the arahats liberation: ceto vimutti, pa~n~naa vimutti. (A. 1, 61). Or M 1, 183, release from the canker of sensual desire and of existence is liberation of mind, and release from the canker of ignorance is liberation by wisdom. Thus it all depends on the context. Compare Nyanatiloka's dictionary. Nina. #81210 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:50 am Subject: Rupas Depend on Namas upasaka_howard Hi, all - I maintain that no rupa ever exists other than as object of consciousness. To make this clear, I choose what I think serves as clearest case study: eye-door rupas. A number of folks here call these "visible objects." I call them "sights." As we are seeing, whatever is seen, i.e., the content of consciousness, is visible object/sight. Subsequently, perhaps, it is conceptually characterized as a visual panorama or color mosaic that includes a desk, a keyboard. a monitor, and speakers. But other than as content of consciousness, where is that visual panorama? Where is that sight? If it were not seen, it would not exist at all! Some folks may argue that hardness resides "in the world", and warmth, and sound. But does anyone argue that eye-door rupas/sights reside "in the world"? There just is no seen without seeing. There is no unseen sight.* Note: What I am saying here is NOT the same as saying that rupas are namas. What I am saying is that there are no rupas existing other than as content of consciousness. Being objects of consciousness is their *mode* of existence. Likewise, there is no consciousness existing other than as the knowing of content. Being knower of an object is the *mode* of existence of consciousness.) With metta, Howard * In the Bahiya Sutta, the Buddha said "... the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe a seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe a to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer." [I take this to mean the following: There is no seen sight independent the seeing of it, there is no unseen sight, there is no existing thing waiting to be seen, and there is no "one who sees." I view this as a radical statement of no-self and emptiness. It is a Nikaya basis for the Shunyavada of Nagarjuna and Vasubandhu.] #81211 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:00 am Subject: Analytical Abilities bhikkhu0 Friends The 5 Abilities are Mutually Dependent! The 5 Abilities (indriya) are: The ability (faculty) of faith, The ability of energy, The ability of awareness, The ability of concentration, The ability of understanding. They depend mutually & strengthen each-other in forward & reverse causality. The 1st causes the 2nd, 3rd, 4th & 5th. These, then also causes the 1st to arise. This is essentially the phenomena of dependent co-arising! Paticcasamuppada. One who has faith, is also energetic; one who is energetic, has also faith. One who has faith, is also aware; one who is aware, has also faith. One who has faith, also concentrates; one who concentrates, has also faith. One who has faith, also understands; one who understands, has also faith. One who is energetic, is also aware; one who is aware, is also energetic. One who is energetic, also concentrates; one who concentrates, is also energetic. One who is energetic, also understands; one who understands, is also energetic. One who is energetic, has also faith; one who has faith, is also energetic. One who is aware, also concentrates; one who concentrates, is also aware. One who is aware, also understands; one who understands, is also aware. One who is aware, has also faith; one who has faith, is also aware. One who is aware, is also energetic; one who is energetic, is also aware. One who concentrates, also understands; one who understands, also concentrates. One who concentrates, has also faith; one who has faith, also concentrates. One who concentrates, is also energetic; one who is energetic, also concentrates. One who concentrates, is also aware; one who is aware, also concentrates. One who understands, has also faith; one who has faith, also understands. One who understands, is also energetic; one who is energetic, also understands. One who understands, is also aware; one who is aware, also understands. One who understands, also concentrates; one who concentrates, also understands. --- Source: Sariputta in The Path of Discrimination: Patidasambhidamagga: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) ...... #81212 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:10 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhistmedi... Hi Scott and Nina, - Concerning the meanings of ceto and citta that seem to be different, you both gave the same answer: " it depends on the context". >Nina (81209): Thus it all depends on the context. Compare Nyanatiloka's dictionary. >Scott (81193): At other times 'citta' seems to refer to consciousness. 'Mano' is also used synonymously at times and at others not. I think it depends on the context. .............. T: Okay. I might have read too much into the Pali words; this is always a problem whenever I switch from Thai to Pali, Pali to English, and English to Thai. I also thank you both very much for the other suggestion and comment. Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Tep, > > Sorry about the delay; thanks for the reply: #81213 From: "m. nease" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:14 pm Subject: The Noble Search (Was: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta?) m_nease Hi Scott (and Nina), Scott Duncan wrote: > "...Nibbaana cannot be attained though having a goal held consciously > since this is mediated by self-view and will never be condition for > the arising of the Path." I'd certainly agree that nibbaana can't be "attained though having a goal held consciously". What do you think of this, though, from the 'Noble Search Sutta'? "...before my Awakening...The thought occurred to me...What if I, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding?" from MN 26 Ariyapariyesana Sutta The Noble Search http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html Besides my particular liking for this sutta, it seems significant to me because (a) it shows the Bodhisatta conceiving of (the concept of) nibbaana before (I think?) having attained any path, and (b) because it seems to me to establish a (conceptual) goal toward which he consciously strove until reaching the actual goal. Admittedly this is a translation of V. Thanissaro's and I haven't compared the paa.li (much less any commentary), but with that caveat, what do you think? Do you reckon this is only a possibility for bodhisattas, or...? mike #81214 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:06 pm Subject: Re: The Noble Search (Was: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta?) truth_aerator Hi Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > > Hi Scott (and Nina), > > Scott Duncan wrote: > > > "...Nibbaana cannot be attained though having a goal held consciously > > since this is mediated by self-view and will never be condition for > > the arising of the Path." > > I'd certainly agree that nibbaana can't be "attained though having a > goal held consciously". What do you think of this, though, from the > 'Noble Search Sutta'? >>>> Nibbana cannot be attained through craving. But it is attained THROUGH desire, or more accurately "Right Effort". > "...before my Awakening...The thought occurred to me...What if I, being > subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the > unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding?" > > from MN 26 > Ariyapariyesana Sutta > The Noble Search > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html > > Besides my particular liking for this sutta, it seems significant to me > because (a) it shows the Bodhisatta conceiving of (the concept of) > nibbaana before (I think?) having attained any path, and (b) because it > seems to me to establish a (conceptual) goal toward which he consciously > strove until reaching the actual goal. > > Admittedly this is a translation of V. Thanissaro's and I haven't > compared the paa.li (much less any commentary), but with that caveat, > what do you think? Do you reckon this is only a possibility for > bodhisattas, or...? > > mike > Please. One MUST have a goal. The thing is that there is a difference between Craving and a Goal. Without proper desire one will never muster enough energy to do anything! Stop teaching this polyanna New Age teaching! Tissa (Thag 1.39) {v. 39} As if struck by a sword,as if his head were on fire,a monk should live the wandering life — mindful — for the abandoning of sensual passion. "If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of ill will, overcome by sloth & drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated,' then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. "But if, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain uncovetous, without thoughts of ill will, free of sloth & drowsiness, not restless, gone beyond uncertainty, not angry, with unsoiled thoughts, with my body unaroused, with persistence aroused, & concentrated,' then his duty is to make an effort in establishing2 those very same skillful qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the effluents." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.051.than.html#tur ban "Further, there is the case where a monk, as night departs and day returns, reflects: 'Many are the [possible] causes of my death. A snake might bite me, a scorpion might sting me, a centipede might bite me. That would be how my death would come about. That would be an obstruction for me. Stumbling, I might fall; my food, digested, might trouble me; my bile might be provoked, my phlegm... piercing wind forces [in the body] might be provoked. That would be how my death would come about. That would be an obstruction for me.' Then the monk should investigate: 'Are there any evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by me that would be an obstruction for me were I to die during the day?' If, on reflecting, he realizes that there are evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by him that would be an obstruction for him were he to die during the day, then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. But if, on reflecting, he realizes that there are no evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by him that would be an obstruction for him were he to die during the day, then for that very reason he should dwell in joy & rapture, training himself day & night in skillful qualities. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.020.than.html#tur ban1 Lots of Metta, Alex #81215 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas lbidd2 Hi Howard, Howard: "But does anyone argue that eye-door rupas/sights reside "in the world"? " Larry: I think the scientific position is that all 5-door objects reside _in_ the world, and what resides _in_ consciousness _is_ consciousness. Glasses off, everything is a blur. Glasses on, everything is clear. The scientific view would be that visible data doesn't change from blur to clarity, but eye consciousness does change from blur to clarity. We are given to believe that most of the time our sense consciousness is an accurate facsimile of the reality "out there", but who is to say how it "really" is? Obviously, with different receptors (sensitive matter) there is a different experience. Larry #81216 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:23 pm Subject: Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... buddhatrue Hi Howard and Sarah, I want to revisit a very complicated thread from last month. We three were discussing the meaning of sankhara and dhamma in the Buddha's teaching of: Sabbe sankhara anicca (All Formations are impermanent) Sabbe sankhara dukkha (All Formations are suffering) Sabbe dhamma anatta (All phenomenon are non-self) Both of you seemed to be in agreement with each other as to the meaning of sankhara and dhammas but in disagreement with me. Let's look again at a part of that thread: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > > Hi, James (and Sarah) - > > In a message dated 12/19/2007 7:47:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@... writes: > > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > > S: I've never suggested or hinted that sankhara (dhammas) don't exist, > > James! Seeing now is a sankhara dhamma. Visible object appearing is a > > sankhara dhamma. So is hearing, sound, feeling, perception, like, > > dislike.... All conditioned dhammas are sankhara dhammas. Of course they > > exist! I'll be glad to see any comment I've ever given which has led you > > to your conclusion above. > > James: There are no such things as "sankhara dhammas". Sankhara are > formations and dhammas are phenomenon. You are confusing the two and > that is making this discussion impossible. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > James, in the suttas, the word 'dhamma' is an informal one that merely > means "thing" - so everything is included under 'dhamma'. As for 'sankhara', > it seems to me that you are using it in the sense of what I call an > "aggregation", by which I mean a dynamic, integrated aggregate of interrelated > phenomena. 'Sankhara' actually has several senses, and that is but one. That sense > makes it correspond to what Sarah would call "pa~n~natto" (I assume that is > the singular.) But please note that Nyanaponika includes the following as part > of his definition of 'sankhara > ': > ******************************* > 4. It occurs further in the sense of anything formed (saá¹…khata, q.v.) and > conditioned, and includes all things whatever in the world, all phenomena of > existence. This meaning applies, e.g. to the well-known passage, "All > formations are impermanent... subject to suffering" (sabbe saá¹…khÄ?ra aniccÄ? ... dukkhÄ? > ). In that context, however, s. is subordinate to the still wider and > all-embracing term dhamma (thing); for dhamma includes also the Unformed or > Unconditioned Element (asaá¹…khata-dhÄ?tu), i.e. NibbÄ?na (e.g. in sabbe dhammÄ? anattÄ? > , "all things are without a self"). > ****************************** > > -------------------------------------------------------- > James: I posted to this once to Howard but I will go ahead and post it again: > > Sankhara are fabrications, constructions, things put together. These > would include: trees, rocks, flowers, people, animals, computers, etc. > and mental fabrications (thoughts- which are constructed in the mind), > body, feeling, perception > > Dhammas are phenomenon, characteristics, `nature' of things. These > would include: citta (consciousness), rupa (heat, cold, hardness, > softness, fluidity, color, cohesion, movement, etc.), and nibbana. > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > This seems to me to be an idiosyncratic definition. It makes 'dhamma' > and 'lakhana' synonymous. Consciousness isn't a quality but an operation. The > same for feeling, recognition, and so on. As for hardness, warmth, sights, > sounds, and so on, if they are qualities, what are they qualities OF? We only > think of hardness as a quality, because we think that a table, for example, is > the reality and hardness is just a feature of that reality. But the opposite > is closer: The hardness is a reality, and the table an aggregation, viewed as > a unit, and one of whose elements is hardness. > ----------------------------------------------------- James: Sankharas are fabrications and therefore can be sub-divided. Dhammas > are phenomenon and therefore cannot be sub-divided. > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > As I surmised, you are restricting the term 'sankhara' to refer to > aggregations (aka pa~n~natti). So, you are dividing "the world" into concepts and > realities just as Sarah does, only she calls the first "pa~n~natti" and you > call them "sankhara". > ---------------------------------------------- James: It was my > understanding that the students of KS believe that the only things > which are real are dhammas and that sankhara (constructions) are not > real but are only concepts. Is this a fair summary? > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Hah! I was right! > ----------------------------------------------- James: Now, are we on the same page or is your understanding of these two > terms different? > James (Now): After this discussion, I must tell you, I felt like I must really be stupid or something. Here you two were defining sankhara and dhamma in that teaching in an entirely different way than I was seeing it. I thought that maybe I was just out of my depth. However, today, I checked out a link which Rahula provided to the writings of Ven. Nanavira and, through detailed analysis, he defines these two terms used in this phrase in basically the same way I do (although you may not agree with him, I feel good that at least I am not completely out of my depth on this subject ;-)): REGARDING SANKHARA: "Sankhárá are first, volitions; secondly, what form the formed; and thirdly, the five aggregates, the living being. Volitions, thus, are what form the formed; and what is formed is the living being. Combining these, we get a single phrase, 'volitions form the living being', which covers all three meanings. This we shall take as expressing the general sense of sankhárá. The emphasis, in particular contexts, on any one of these three aspects may be more than on the others, as the quotations show; but if the general sense is entirely forgotten in such contexts, the essential background connecting different uses of the word sankhaárá is lost; and many passages, thus isolated, become hard to understand. If the context does not indicate any one particular aspect, then sankhárá may be understood in its general sense. It will be seen that the general sense of sankhárá, 'volitions form the living being', describes a process taking place in time -- past volitions form present beings, present volitions form future beings. Since the chief characteristic of a temporal process is change, we may say 'every formation of living beings by volitions is a process of change', or more shortly, 'all formations are impermanent'; and we thus arrive at sabbe sankhárá aniccá." REGARDING DHAMMAS: From the discussion in the last paragraph, it is apparent that dhammá as 'elements of mental analysis' represents what is common to both dhammá as 'objects of the mind' and dhammá as 'experiences' (in its widest sense); for 'elements of mental analysis' are experiences that have become objects of the analysing mind. We can now formulate a general sense of dhammá that is valid at least within the range of meanings indicated by the Suttas that have been considered: dhammá are 'objects of mental analysis'. This general sense has been derived, not as an exact definition of dhammá, but as a guide to the implication of sabbe dhammá anattá. When this result is applied, sabbe dhammá anattá becomes 'all objects of mental analysis are not-self'. Since attá, or self, arises in the first place merely as a delusive figment of the mind, and is then attributed by the deluded mind to its objects -- 'the five aggregates of clinging or one of them' --, a statement that mental analysis finds no attá in any of its objects is equivalent to an absolute denial of attá. Remembering this, and also the fact that the mind is the only means there is of investigating anything at all, the foregoing interpretation of sabbe dhammá anattá may not seem unreasonable.[d] ANALYSIS OF BOTH: What more remains to be said? We have sabbe sankhárá aniccá because change is the characteristic of sankhárá, a synthesis, a process involving time: sabbe sankhárá dukkhá because suffering is a characteristic of change: and sabbe dhammá anattá because dhamma implies an analysis, a tally of the state of affairs at a given moment, in which no self can be found. If a length of cable is looked at sideways, the strands can be traced without difficulty from end to end, but it is hard to tell how many there are, and to make sure that not one is overlooked. Sabbe sankárá aniccá is existence seen sideways, as a process: impermanence is easy to observe, but can we be certain there is no hidden core of self inside? If a cross-section of the same cable is looked at, although the strands cannot be seen as they run through the cable they can be counted immediately, and not one will pass unnoticed. Sabbe dhammá anattá is existence seen in cross section, as a state: although impermanence is not immediately not evident, a hidden core of self inside would be noticed at once. Rúpam bhikkhave aniccam, vedaná aniccá, saññá aniccá, sankhárá aniccá, viññánam aniccam; rúpam bhikkhave anattá, vedaná anattá, saññá anattá, sankhárá anattá, viññánam anattá: sabbe sankhárá aniccá, sabbe dhammá anattáti. (Majjhima 35) Matter, monks, is impermanent, feeling is impermanent, perception is impermanent, formations are impermanent, consciousness is impermanent; Matter, monks, is not-self, feeling is not-self, perception is nor-self, formations are not-self, consciousness is not-self: all formations are impermanent; all things are not-self. Seen as sankhárá, the five aggregates are aniccá, seen as dhammá, they are anattá. Existence -- the five aggregates -- may be looked at, like the cable, in one way or in another: but in whichever way it is looked at, it is still anicca, dukkha, and anatta" http://www.nanavira.org/ Metta, James ps. Nanavira doesn't include nibbana in the category of "dhamma", and I agree with him. I included nibbana in my definition of dhamma, but with reservations, because I have found one sutta where the monk is not supposed to "assume" nibbana to be self. Officially, I say that nibbana should not be viewed as self or non-self, but if it must be viewed (as humans are apt to do) it should be viewed as non-self as opposed to self. #81217 From: "Alex" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:33 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Howard, > > Howard: "But does anyone argue that eye-door rupas/sights reside "in the > world"? " > > Larry: I think the scientific position is that all 5-door objects reside _in_ the world, and what resides _in_ consciousness _is_ consciousness. Glasses off, everything is a blur. Glasses on, everything is clear. The scientific view would be that visible data doesn't change from blur to clarity, but eye consciousness does change from blur to clarity. We are given to believe that most of the time our sense consciousness is an accurate facsimile of the reality "out there", but who is to say how it > "really" is? This is called "Naive Realism". But the thing is that we cognize only the cognized! We never see object in itself. We never cognize uncognized! We only see our own consciousness, perception, intention & feelings! If you destroy your eyes, then you won't see forms - they will be non existent to you. Some may say "But forms still exist! I see them!" to which the answer lies in their phrase, forms exist for you because you see them. If all beings were without eyes, would it be possible to say "forms, shapes & colors exist?" no. Same could be said with other senses and with general consiousness as well. If there is consciousness for you, then there is the cognized world for you. If there is no consciousness in you, then there is the no world for you. If I am consiousness then there is cognized world for me, but that is because unlike you I AM consciousness. If all of the beings have no consiousness then who would say "this or that exists?" Lots of Metta, Alex #81218 From: LBIDD@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:03 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas lbidd2 Hi Alex, Alex: "unlike you I AM consciousness" Larry: If you are consciousness then I am you. Therefore I must be right ;-) Larry #81219 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... upasaka_howard Hi, James (and Sarah) - In a message dated 1/15/2008 9:23:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: James (Now): After this discussion, I must tell you, I felt like I must really be stupid or something. Here you two were defining sankhara and dhamma in that teaching in an entirely different way than I was seeing it. I thought that maybe I was just out of my depth. However, today, I checked out a link which Rahula provided to the writings of Ven. Nanavira and, through detailed analysis, he defines these two terms used in this phrase in basically the same way I do (although you may not agree with him, I feel good that at least I amnot completely out of my depth on this subject ;-)): ================================= I however, AM out of my depth. Perhaps I'm just sleepy [I have a lousy cold!], but I can't make head or tail out of the quote by the venerable. If it is along the same lines as your perspective and you feel vindicated by that, I'm pleased for you. (Truly. :-) With metta, Howard #81220 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:13 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear Alex, A: "But you brought this issue up! How can it not be your concern?" Scott: *What you fantasize about Nanavira* is none of my concern. A: "Anyhow same can be said about you 'I think you ought to take care with what you imagine about Nanavira.'" Scott: There is a significant difference between leaving aside the erudite writings of an individual due to the fantasy that they were possibly the product of a disturbed mind and taking them in with total exuberance due to the fantasy that he was an arahat. In the former case there is hardly any danger to the one leaving them aside - they aren't the suttas and they amount to scholarly opinions - while in the latter, one is vulnerable, in my opinion, to an exacerbation of one's own disturbances. Err on the side of caution when it comes to modern day neo-commentaries and their authors I say. Last word to you, Alex (unless you need more from me). Sincerely, Scott #81221 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:26 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > ================================= > I however, AM out of my depth. Perhaps I'm just sleepy [I have a lousy > cold!], James: Sorry to hear that. Actually, I have a nasty cold also. Had to stay home from work yesterday. Ironically, however, I can concentrate better when I have a cold as it turns off psychic abilities. but I can't make head or tail out of the quote by the venerable. James: His writing is very dense. Perhaps you would have to read the entire article, or re-read the quotes when you feel better. If it > is along the same lines as your perspective and you feel vindicated by that, > I'm pleased for you. (Truly. :-) James: Yeah, I guess I do feel somewhat vindicated. At least glad that someone else saw things the same way (even if it is the wrong way). I'm not sure if that is conceit or not. I guess if I studied the Abhidhamma enough I would immediately know if that mind state was kusala, akusala, or neither ;-)). > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James #81222 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:12 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Scott (and Alex), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear Alex, > > A: "But you brought this issue up! How can it not be your concern?" > > Scott: *What you fantasize about Nanavira* is none of my concern. > > A: "Anyhow same can be said about you 'I think you ought to take care > with what you imagine about Nanavira.'" > > Scott: There is a significant difference between leaving aside the > erudite writings of an individual due to the fantasy that they were > possibly the product of a disturbed mind and taking them in with total > exuberance due to the fantasy that he was an arahat. > > In the former case there is hardly any danger to the one leaving them > aside - they aren't the suttas and they amount to scholarly opinions - If this is the opinion you hold then why do you listen to the interpretations of K. Sujin? Let's compare the two: Nanavira: Buddhist Monk ; K. Sujin: Householder Nanavira: Lived in seclusion ; K. Sujin: Minor celebrity surrounded by followers. Nanavira: Lived in poverty ; K. Sujin: Accepts and encourages cash donations Nanavira: stated that he achieved sotapanna ; K. Sujin: Tight-lipped about any spiritual accomplishments If I had to pick one, I would pick the one who practices what he preaches- and that sure wouldn't be K. Sujin! Metta, James #81223 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:34 pm Subject: Re: Swimming analogy philofillet Hi Jon and all > > Jon > Again, I think the idea of a given *activity* leading to the > > arising of a particular *mental state* is not consonant with the > > teachings. That to my way of thinking is what is meant in the > > teachings by rites and ritual: if this is done then the mental state > > will be thus. Yes, I would agree with this, especially in the light of "given" and ""particular" - there are no zero conditionals in the developing of kusala states. But I do think that there are many conventional activities that greatly lessen the probability of unwholesome deeds. (And abstention from unwholesome deeds is the only form of kusala that really rings my bell.) I am by no means a serious meditator, but I most definitely can see that the samadhi section of Vism. is full of intentional methods. Not suitable for this day and age? Fine. That can be said, and argued. But to say that intentional, conventional methods are in and of themselves wrong view, clinging to rites and ritual is wrong, I think. But I'm in a mood to try to drop discussing meditation, again. One of these months my vow on this matter will stick! > > > > This is an interesting point. From what I've seen in the > > tipitaka, "rites and rituals" refers to animal sacrifices, fire > > ceremonies that kind of thing. But in this day and age I can see it > > could refer to the kind of meditation practices that promise ariyan > > attainments if one does a 3 week retreat, that sort of thing. > > I think if a person were to sit with the idea that sitting brings > kusala mental states, that would be a form of belief in rites, since > there is no cause and effect involved. Ph: Probabilities. No direct cause and effect. I know the Buddha doesn't use the word "probabilities" so I am probably wrong, but so be it. > > As for *activities* the tipitaka is chock full of activities > > that contribute to the conditioning of desirable mental states. > > They're not linked directly to them in a "zero conditional" way (if > > it rains you get wet, if you sit, you get right samadhi) and I don't > > think anyone but the most unscrupulous (unskillful) meditation > > teacher would claim that. It's all about increasing probabilities > > through wise application of the Buddha's teaching, I think. > > As you know, I don't see the tipitaka as talking about "activities > that contribute to the conditioning of desirable mental states". Ph: Please see the Samadhi section of vism. Very detailed instructions, and "the clansman who is a beginner"is also invited to join! :) The > same issue arises here as in my thread with Howard: unless the > activities are themselves (i.e., are accompanied by) kusala mental > states, you are postulating a case of akusala conditioning the arising > of kusala, aren't you? Ph: Yes, I guess it sounds that way. But your definition of kusala is much narrower than mine, I think. I know I have read Nina write about how very many factors must be co-arising for kusala to be present. If this is what Abhidhamma says, fine, I'd like to learn about it and appreciate it to some degree. But in conventional terms I don't understand how this could be. If kusala were so rarefied the world would be a burning hell, literally. There must be some commoner forms of kusala holding things together. I mean, we're not all raping and killing each other, are we? Thanks goodness for that! DSG would be even harder for you to moderate!!!! :) > > > BTW, I'm studying the SPD again and finding it very good. As is > > Perfections. I keep stumbling when I come across references to > > anything like "be aware of present realities" because I find it > > contradictory to be told this, when on other occasions I am told > > that sitting and watching the breath is a form of greed/delusion > > etc. I still find the notion of being encouraged to be aware of > > present realities in daily life greedy and impatient too. I'm not > > understanding/having faith in that kind of satipatthana, or perhaps > > any kind of satipatthana these days. > > I don't know which passages you have in mind, so I can't comment on > them. However, I think it likely that you are misunderstanding what > you have read. I suspect that if you look more closely you'll find > that the emphasis is on the fact that awareness may arise at any time > and take any object, and that the conditions for its arising are not > concerned with a practice that is undertaken for express purpose of > its development. Ph: I think I am very sensitive to language. So when A. Sujin (or Nina, when translating) uses strong modals such as "should" for studying momentary realities, I resist. When it is something like "sati may arise" or "one may begin to realize" and that sort of thing, I am more comfortable. I just get really irritated when I sense A. Sujin urging people to try to get to the heart of the Buddha's teaching, deep satipatthana, when she so often accuses modern teachers of doing the same thing. I don't like double standards, hypocrisy. I may very well be wrong about this, but please pay attention for any occasion on which you think that she is urging you to take shortcuts to deep understanding, that's all. > > > I am feeling very motivated in > > a kind of practice in which all the objects of attention are > > conceptual, and there is a lot of sorting out of wholesome and > > unwholesome in a pretty basic way amoung those concepts. > > Is this 'practice' based on any particular sutta(s) or textual > source(s)? If not, there's a fair chance it will turn out to be just > another technique that someone has come up with. PH:Well, I find that Anguttara Nikaya, which has so many suttas aimed at the householder, places a lot of emphasis on people leading conventional lives, with conventional concerns. It seems to me that the Buddha uses the deep clinging to self that is inevitably present for us when he teaches discourses that warn against unfavourable rebirth. If this seems akin to Christian Fires of Hell kind of teaching, well, I feel there are similarities. I think we are *all* concerned about where we will reborn, and while there are no guarantees, there are - again - ways of improving probabilities! That's what motivates me these days. In the suttas I am thinking of, there are no references to penetrative wisdom, exceot in one that refers to "accomplishment in wisdom." Most of them do however refer to virtue, which is defined in terms of abstaining from evil. I do not believe that abstaining from evil in the way the Buddha encouraged householders to abstain from evil is rare. Is it technically akusala because there is the wrong view of sakkaya- ditthi involved? Well, no way around that in my opinion, or people like me would get nowhere and just ending up rotting in gross defilements. No thanks. I will try to lift myself above that sort of thing, clinging to self or not. However, as I've said before, I really do appreciate reading about a subtler and deeper approach to Dhamma, appreciating it second-hand. Perhaps there will be conditions that make it real for me someday. Nice touching bases with you Jon, I guess I'll leave the last word to you. I want to carry on a discussion on more specific technical matters. (Such as in the thread on visible object/form) The topics I brought up here are so huge and wide-ranging. Metta, Phil #81224 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interpretation of the Dhamma/... upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/15/2008 10:26:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: I guess if I studied the Abhidhamma enough I would immediately know if that mind state was kusala, akusala, or neither ;-)). ================================= Of course! LOLOL! With metta, Howard #81225 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:50 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/15/2008 11:15:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Nanavira: Buddhist Monk ; K. Sujin: Householder Nanavira: Lived in seclusion ; K. Sujin: Minor celebrity surrounded by followers. Nanavira: Lived in poverty ; K. Sujin: Accepts and encourages cash donations Nanavira: stated that he achieved sotapanna ; K. Sujin: Tight-lipped about any spiritual accomplishments If I had to pick one, I would pick the one who practices what he preaches- and that sure wouldn't be K. Sujin! =================================== There is a virtue to being "tight-lipped about any spiritual accomplishments," don't you think? As a matter of fact, is it not among the sangha rules not to speak of such? With metta, Howard #81226 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:50 pm Subject: Vijnanavada [Re: [dsg] Re: Report on the Meeting at the Foundation (3)] philofillet HiSarah Thanks for your reply. As you know, I've moved the stuff related to visual object over to that thread. I will get to it one of these days. > Briefly on other points you've raised briefly: > > Sakkaya-ditthi is the pre-cursor for all other kinds of gross wrong view. > It is very gross! Only through understanding and eradicating > sakkaya-ditthi will these other wrong views be eradicated. We're so very > caught up in this body as being mine and so on. Ph: Gross, ok. But so pervasive too! I think people of my degree of understanding trying to eradicate sakkaya-ditthi is something like trying to stay dry when one is already plunked in the middle of a tub! Something like that. At the back of SPD there are 3 kinds of wrong view listed that are much more immediately dangerous, I think. You know the ones, related to not believing in results of deeds, etc. Maybe those forms of wrong view are no longer of concern to you, you are so deeply rooted in Dhamma. But they are very real for me. On some days I find myself thinking "do you really belive in this kamma stuff?" On days like that I can appreciate what the first kind of wrong view to get after is. As I was saying to Jon, I do appreciate the way you and others emphasize getting after sakkaya- ditthi. My approach to dhamma is very comfortable with working with view of self, putting it to use, so it is good to have friends who have a stricter understanding on this point. > All formal meditation is a clinging to a rite and ritual > (silabbataparamasa), ONLY when and if there is an idea that the path is a > matter of following some kind of method or technique. It comes down to the > cittas at any time. You mentioned that when you start meditating that the > 'Dhamma feels more centred in the body, and less in the head' and that > this will be more helpful in dealing with pain and death. That may be so, > just as other kinds of martial arts, yoga or brathing work can be helpful. Ph: Yes, I often think about this, and your yoga. I won'T go into this now, but I think there is a place for samattha meditation and great benefits of it even short of jhanas. Has something to do with making oursleves more resilient to objects. But there is most definitely a new-agey element to my meditation. I used to do new- agey visualization before coming to Dhamma, so it comes natural to me. My objection re the labelling of meditation as silababawhatchamcallit is not in defence of my meditation, which I know is wrong (but helpful in avoiding evil deeds) but as a principle. I don't think *all* formal meditaiton should be condemned but when I hear people use terms like "the meditator" in a somewhat condescending way in recorded talks, I get irritated - or got irritated. On principle. I think A. Sujin could be more generous in her assessment of different approaches to Dhamma, but I guess her approach is so rooted in strict definitions (which is cool) there is not much room for that kind of generosity, if you know what I mean. Now, if you're going to turn around and tell me that she *is* generous in her assessment of other approaches to Dhamma, it will be an example of that dodging around I was mentioning. ;) I guess I'll drop it there. I think this round of venting is done. Now, when I'm back in a few days, on with visual object and seeing! Thanks Sarah. Metta, Phil #81227 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:31 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > There is a virtue to being "tight-lipped about any spiritual > accomplishments," don't you think? James: No, not when one is a teacher of Dhamma. As a matter of fact, is it not among the sangha rules > not to speak of such? James: No, it is against the rules to lie about such: Should any bhikkhu, without direct knowledge, claim a superior human state, a truly noble knowledge and vision, as present in himself, saying, "Thus do I know; thus do I see," such that regardless of whether or not he is cross-examined on a later occasion, he — being remorseful and desirous of purification — might say, "Friends, not knowing, I said I know; not seeing, I said I see — vainly, falsely, idly," unless it was from over-estimation, he also is defeated and no longer in affiliation. > > With metta, > Howard #81228 From: "Sukinder" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:45 pm Subject: TYPO FIX Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interp... sukinderpal Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Had Nina not responded to your original post to Sarah, I would have done so on the same point, re: taking thinking for seeing. I hope you do not mind therefore, that I react to this one. ============== N: To me it seems that you do not speak about seeing, but about thinking on account of what is seen. When there is only seeing, it is not known whether the object is pleasant or not, or whether we rather turn the other side, whether we walk around the backyard. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm talking about setting up conditions that influence *what* we will see. And we can & do manage that all the time! Sukin: This is one reason why it is so important that we get the `theory' right. And this too, not only to remember, but continually reflect on it, re: cintamaya panna. Otherwise due to the accumulated ignorance, we end up perpetuating the beliefs in `cause and effect relationship' which is of the worldling, instead of beginning to understand the way that an Ariyan might see things. Nina I think was trying to draw your attention to this difference. She was saying that `seeing' is vipakka, the result of kamma from don't know when and is something not to be speculated upon. With this she was also asking you to distinguish this from the thinking / javana / kamma arising in between and not to mix them or try making any relations, because if and when we do this, as worldlings, we usually perceive a cause and effect relationship not in line with the Dhamma. It is fine to go by the kind of thinking when living in the conventional world, such that for example, I control what my kids get to watch on TV. I'll even suggest to them about how seeing one kind of show is `bad' and another not. However if and when I have the chance of teaching them about Dhamma, here I would like them to be correct about it. I would like them to be able to distinguish kamma from vipakka, how one is "cause" and the other merely the "result". That they may `know' to some degree the former, the latter is however something they should just more or less accept. Certainly I would not want them to assume that the javana processes involved in the thinking and intention to turn away from a certain "sight" has *caused* the arising of any subsequent "seeing" experiencing another visible object! If they do, then instead of understanding anatta and conditionality, they would go way with even greater idea of `self' and control. Not only is javana taken to be controllable, but also vipakka and this wrong understanding is cumulative. Even if we haven't yet got the sense of the javanas being conditioned and hence incontrollable, I think we should at least separate this from the vipakka and know that this latter is *result* only. Besides when we mix the two in the way stated, aren't we also inclining away from the understanding of the workings of kamma and vipakka being unfathomable / imponderable? Howard, in another post you pointed out / compared your decision to deliberately sit down to meditate as being equally valid as any one of us deciding to sit in front of the computer to read DSG. I think the point to consider is this: If one of us were to talk about the experience of satipatthana while using the computer, should this be taken by someone else as a `practice' to follow, i.e. to sit and read DSG? In the same way when the Buddha talked to his disciples about what they might better "know" when they went on their routine "sitting at the shade of a tree with back erect experiencing Jhana", namely to study the five khandhas instead, is this about "knowing" the khandhas or is one asked to imitate the behavior of those monks? It is hard enough to know what arises naturally in accordance with our past kamma and accumulations, this including an infinitely supply of ignorance. But we can begin slowly to know this and it helps us not to think in terms of "goals", let alone have any unrealistic expectations. Trying to copy the activities of others no matter who and how noble the intention, is something we should be extra cautious about. We are after all not working at "ignorance" here, but instead encouraging it by taking the attention away from what might be conditioned to arise in the moment on to conforming to an "idea". Howard you also said that the `intention' to meditate is no different to intending to Dhamma study / discussion since this is based on the fact that the Texts state them as being factors to Stream Entry. I am quite sure that, even though we all understand this to be true and compare it with the relationship between, Pariyatti > Patipatti > Pativedha or Suttamaya panna, Cintamaya panna and Bhavanamaya panna, no one actually decides to study/ discuss with the particular thought in mind. The interest in Dhamma is the interest in Dhamma and this is conditioned as per level of accumulated understanding. For most of us, it is to hear and consider more and this would involve the conventional activity of reading and discussing. It is not like we seek to do these *because* we have read about the necessity of it, but rather we come to understand that such is conditioned and that according to the Texts, this happens to be the right thing to do. But then because we see that it is encouraged in the Texts, this adds to the confidence and conviction by sankhara and *not* by making up one's mind to "do it". Those who used to meditate before but now don't, they did not come to this through choosing between doing this over doing that. They `dropped' all doings and by conditions found themselves being interested in refining their understanding at the Pariyatti level. Can the same be said about any decision to practice `meditation'? I don't think so. While in the case of having an interest in Dhamma which then conditions the conventional activity of reading / discussing, there is no thought about giving rise to and identification with any desired mental states involved. Not even to think that the `activity' is kusala. In fact one is encouraged *never* to mistake the conventional activity in and of itself, to imply at any given moment, a reflection of a corresponding mental state. And this serves to prevent the whole thing from turning into a `rite and ritual'. Is this the same as in those who meditate? This post of mine has been long as always and clearly against your own understanding. I hope you will be patient with it. Metta, Sukin. #81229 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:04 pm Subject: Re: Swimming analogy philofillet Hi again, Jon and all Correcting myself > Yes, I would agree with this, especially in the light of "given" > and ""particular" - there are no zero conditionals in the developing > of kusala states. This is wrong, of course - at the paramattha level, there are countless moments of zero conditional - the arising of a certain citta absolutely necessitates the arising of another certain citta. Contiguity condition, and so on. But when it comes to conventional activities necessarily giving rise to kusala cittas, no, no zero conditionals. BTW Jon, one thing I wanted to thank you for (and the group as a whole) is the way one small thing you said to me once, maybe 6 months ago, keeps echoing. "You seem to be having trouble with satipatthana" or words to that effect. And indeed, I am, which is fine, I'm not having faith in the notion of direct awareness of realities, but this is not a problem, it is bringing about other ways to benefit from the Buddha's teaching, which is so multi- facted, and helps in so many different ways, at some many different degrees of understanding. Just wanted to thank you for that line. I love the way certain casual statements from Dhamma friends can echo like that. I think of Han's "I get the feeling some friends don't appreciate sila enough" and something Larry said once about how the heated debate about meditation just shows how much attachment there is to our practices. (I think that attachment can be a good thing, wholesome chanda and all.) Anyways, just to say how much I appreciate this forum. Metta, Phil #81230 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas TGrand458@... Hi Howard I just don't agree at all. LOL What you've written below is obviously from a phenomenological/consciousness bent. This is clearly your tendency. You're welcome to it. First of all, I'm not sure what an "eye-door-rupa" is ... from an Abhidhamma perspective or your perspective. To me its photons...as far as a general theoretical model goes. So technically, I don't even consider a "desk" to be a visual object. But for practical purposes, we can speak of a desk as a visual object. However, my take on your argument below would be more like this... seems to me that physical phenomena that may act as a support for visual consciousness are able to be corroborated as "happening" independently from mere visual experience. For example, the firmness of a desk can be felt, the change of sound due to reflections of the same can be detected, the smell of wood, and so on. I think the sensible conclusion is that this physical phenomena, rupa if you rather, is a manifestation "independent" of visual experience. I mean, my rental house is still generating income even though its in another state I can't experience it at all. Seems like my renter would be foolish to keep sending me checks for a house that only arises when I am actually experiencing it. Does it matter that you may be uncomfortable with the idea that "wood" manifests with or without consciousness of the same; while I think the notion is unimportant and "off the mark"? I guess not; as long as our minds are not attached to the idea. BTW, I think your title for this thread should have been ... Phenomenology vs Common Sense ;-) TG In a message dated 1/15/2008 1:50:26 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Hi, all - I maintain that no rupa ever exists other than as object of consciousness. To make this clear, I choose what I think serves as clearest case study: eye-door rupas. A number of folks here call these "visible objects." I call them "sights." As we are seeing, whatever is seen, i.e., the content of consciousness, is visible object/sight. Subsequently, perhaps, it is conceptually characterized as a visual panorama or color mosaic that includes a desk, a keyboard. a monitor, and speakers. But other than as content of consciousness, where is that visual panorama? Where is that sight? If it were not seen, it would not exist at all! Some folks may argue that hardness resides "in the world", and warmth, and sound. But does anyone argue that eye-door rupas/sights reside "in the world"? There just is no seen without seeing. There is no unseen sight.* Note: What I am saying here is NOT the same as saying that rupas are namas. What I am saying is that there are no rupas existing other than as content of consciousness. Being objects of consciousness is their *mode* of existence. Likewise, there is no consciousness existing other than as the knowing of content. Being knower of an object is the *mode* of existence of consciousness.co With metta, Howard #81231 From: "Phil" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:16 pm Subject: Wife as object of awareness philofillet Hi all I have trouble understanding satipatthana, I have trouble having faith in understanding that is direct enough to know realities that are so momentary. So for me, it is always thinking about this or that, awareness of concepts such as people and things. Thus, I have come to have this understanding of Naomi as one of three objects of awareness: pleasant wife, unpleasant wife, neutral wife. These days pleasant wife predominates, conditioning much clinging. This will result in great aversion when unpleasant wife arises. And ignorance with respect to neutral wife, easy to miss, is something to work on too. Thank you. Metta, Phil p.s tongue in cheek, folks. Or is it? #81232 From: TGrand458@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:21 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas TGrand458@... Hi Howard Now you got me all fired up. LOL OK, let's say we're in a light tight room. Then we switch on and off a light. Seems to me our visual consciousness is dependent on the light and not the other way around. Our consciousness rises and wanes much as a VU meter rises and wanes due to volume intensity. That should give you some nice stuff to play with. ;-) TG #81233 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:01 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perfections Corner hantun1 Dear Connie (and All), I just came back from Yangon. I will continue with chapter 6 The Perfection of Patience shortly. Thank you very much for your presentations. Respectfully, Han #81234 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas nilovg Hi Howard, I shall quote the Bahiyasutta again and also an old post I wrote. I marked the numbers 1 and 2. Op 15-jan-2008, om 21:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: 1. What I am saying is that there are no rupas existing other than as content of consciousness. Being objects of consciousness is their *mode* of existence. 2. Likewise, there is no consciousness existing other than as the knowing ofcontent. Being knower of an object is the *mode* of existence of consciousness.) As to 1, I disagree. Rupas of the body can originate in four factors: kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition. as to 2: right, each citta must experience an object. Then you quote and explain the Bahiya sutta: > in the Bahiya Sutta, the Buddha said "... the Tathagata, when > seeing what > is to be seen, doesn't construe a seen. He doesn't construe an > unseen. He > doesn't construe a to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer." [I take > this to mean > the following: There is no seen sight independent the seeing of it, > there is > no unseen sight, there is no existing thing waiting to be seen, and > there is > no "one who sees." I view this as a radical statement of no-self and > emptiness. It is a Nikaya basis for the Shunyavada of Nagarjuna and > Vasubandhu.] --------- N: I agree with there isno "one who sees." But as to your other conclusions, it is best to check with the sutta and co. This sutta deals with insight. Not with what you say as: "Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will > be merely > what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the > sensed will be > merely what is sensed; .....then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with > that.' When, > Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in > that.' When, > Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither > here nor > beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." ----------- < There is also a Bahiyasutta in the Udaana, and I have the Co. translated by Peter Masefield. (PTS). . To have javanacittas that are devoid of lobha, dosa and moha, just as eye-consciousness is. The Co explains about the three pari~n~nas, beginning with ~naata pari~n~na, full comprehension of the known (beginning from the first stage of tender insight....: The Co states: Nina. #81235 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:10 am Subject: Perfections Corner (74) hantun1 Perfections Corner (74) Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6 The Perfection of Patience The Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” defines the perfection of patience as follows: “Patience has the characteristic of acceptance; its function is to endure the desirable and undesirable; its manifestation is tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they really are is its proximate cause.” The perfection of patience, khanti paaramí, has a wide meaning. Patience is to be developed not merely towards an undesirable object, but also towards a desirable object. We should have patience towards a desirable object so that lobha does not arise, so that there is no attachment and delight in visible object and the other sense objects that appear. Khanti or patience is kusala, it is a sobhana (beautiful) dhamma which does not arise with akusala citta, with the citta rooted in attachment, but which arises with kusala citta. However, people can also have a great deal of endurance in the akusala way, and this is endurance with lobha, when they want to obtain something. Someone may be able to endure everything in order to obtain what he desires, no matter whether he has to stay awake until late at night or all night. However, can one endure this in order to develop kusala? Endurance with the development of kusala is the perfection of patience, khanti paaramí. With the perfection of patience one can stand heat or cold. This means, that on account of hot or cold weather akusala citta does not arise, that one has no disturbance or annoyance. We should be aware of the characteristic of the citta arising at such a moment, we should know whether it is kusala or akusala. Is there like or dislike of the weather? If we like it there is lobha, attachment, and if we dislike it there is dosa, aversion, and in both cases the perfection of patience does not arise. The perfection of patience is endurance with true calm at such moments, no attachment nor aversion. To be continued. Han #81236 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:19 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wife as object of awareness nilovg HI Phil, Op 16-jan-2008, om 7:16 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Thus, I have come to have this understanding of Naomi as one of three > objects of awareness: pleasant wife, unpleasant wife, neutral wife. > These days pleasant wife predominates, conditioning much clinging. > This > will result in great aversion when unpleasant wife arises. And > ignorance with respect to neutral wife, easy to miss, is something to > work on too. ------- N: Do you see Naomi? Do you touch Naomi? When you learn that seeing does not see a person only colour it will help you to cling less to a person, and thus less frustrations when there is a change. Nina. #81237 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:46 am Subject: Re: kamma and vipaka. was: TYPO FIX nilovg Hi Howard, please be patient with Sukin and me. Op 16-jan-2008, om 6:45 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > This is one reason why it is so important that we get the `theory' > right. And this too, not only to remember, but continually reflect on > it, re: cintamaya panna. Otherwise due to the accumulated ignorance, > we end up perpetuating the beliefs in `cause and effect relationship' > which is of the worldling, instead of beginning to understand the way > that an Ariyan might see things. ----------- N: If we do not have right understanding of seeing we miss the meaning of cause and effect. Here we need the abhidhamma, teaching us about the processes, where seeing is just one short moment that arises and where after that javana cittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. Then visible object is experienced through the mind- door and after that there are other mind-door processes that define what is seen, etc. The Abhidhamma is also a support for satipatthana, where it is learnt that seeing is one kind of nama, and visible object is rupa, quite different from nama. But through insight it is clearly known what seeing is, and that is why it is through insight that kamma and vipaaka are understood. It is not easy to clearly know what seeing is, we mix it up with defining shape and form. We all do, very understandable. Cittas succeed each other so rapidly. --------- You wrote in another post: ----------------------------------------------- N: Looking at someone on TV is not seeing, there are moments of seeing but also moments of thinking, of defining. This is not vipaakacitta. As to kammic influence, this has to be kusala citta or akusala citta, but we cannot see, as Sukin explained, now this kusala or akusala will bring as result this moment of seeing. Besides, kusala and akusala do not always have the intensity of kamma that produces result. -------- H: -------- N: Covering the ears with aversion, this is akusala citta, but may not have the intensity of kamma. It is citta that causes the hands to move. This is not vipaaka. Perhaps you speak in a conventional way of vipaka as result. But the meaning of vipaaka is different. The sense-cognitions that experience visible object, etc. are vipaakacittas. We just have to be very precise, otherwise we accumulate wrong understanding of cause and effect. When covering the ears there may not be hearing, but there are many other vipakacittas, such as body-consciousness, some of which are the result of kusala kamma and some the result of akusala kamma. We cannot know how kamma operates. Nina. #81238 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:50 am Subject: Re: Wife as object of awareness buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi all > > I have trouble understanding satipatthana, I have trouble having > faith in understanding that is direct enough to know realities that are > so momentary. So for me, it is always thinking about this or that, > awareness of concepts such as people and things. James: There is nothing wrong with that kind of awareness. It is the first level and that which we should become competent at before we attempt higher levels. This is why Jataka Tales can be beneficial at a beginning level as they deal with mindfulness of people and situations. > > Thus, I have come to have this understanding of Naomi as one of three > objects of awareness: pleasant wife, unpleasant wife, neutral wife. James: LOLOLOL!! This is hilarious! As a westerner with a foreign wife (husband) I know just what you mean!! Their moods can change quickly and suddenly and it is practically impossible to pinpoint a cause. But, oh, how rich and fulfilling that all can be! :-) > These days pleasant wife predominates, conditioning much clinging. James: This is to be expected- so sweet and so nice- and part of her master plan, believe me. ;-)) > will result in great aversion when unpleasant wife arises. James: Well, mainly will result in great confusion (with some aversion mixed in, of course). This is the time that tests your familial piety! Are you up to the challenge? LOL! And > ignorance with respect to neutral wife, easy to miss, is something to > work on too. James: Neutral wife is when she decides to focus on herself for a while, instead of you. Lord, it can be maddening! ;-)) > > Thank you. James: No, thank you for such a delightful post! It is cute and yet apropos. Satipatthana indeed has many levels. When I visit Japan (next year I hope), I will have to bring Sebastian with me so that our two Asian wifes can mash, and we both can get the hell away from them!! ;-)) > > Metta, > > Phil Metta, James #81239 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:01 am Subject: Re: Swimming analogy buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi again, Jon and all > > Correcting myself > > > Yes, I would agree with this, especially in the light of "given" > > and ""particular" - there are no zero conditionals in the > developing > > of kusala states. > > This is wrong, of course - at the paramattha level, there are > countless moments of zero conditional - the arising of a certain > citta absolutely necessitates the arising of another certain citta. > Contiguity condition, and so on. But when it comes to conventional > activities necessarily giving rise to kusala cittas, no, no zero > conditionals. James: Could you please explain the idea of "zero conditional"? I don't know of anything within samsara which has zero conditions. > > BTW Jon, one thing I wanted to thank you for (and the group as a > whole) is the way one small thing you said to me once, maybe 6 > months ago, keeps echoing. "You seem to be having trouble with > satipatthana" or words to that effect. And indeed, I am, which is > fine, I'm not having faith in the notion of direct awareness of > realities, but this is not a problem, it is bringing about other > ways to benefit from the Buddha's teaching, which is so multi- > facted, and helps in so many different ways, at some many different > degrees of understanding. > > Just wanted to thank you for that line. I love the way certain > casual statements from Dhamma friends can echo like that. James: Yeah, I think this is very true. People don't always appreciate how their words can affect others. Jon can be very terse, but his few words do pack a wallop!! ;-)) I think of > Han's "I get the feeling some friends don't appreciate sila enough" > and something Larry said once about how the heated debate about > meditation just shows how much attachment there is to our practices. > (I think that attachment can be a good thing, wholesome chanda and > all.) Anyways, just to say how much I appreciate this forum. > > Metta, > > Phil Metta, James ps. Phil and All, not to lecture, but please remember to trim your posts. What you may not understand is that Jon and Sarah actually print out, on paper, every single post on DSG (they brought a stack with them when I met them- they read the posts to each other). So, if you don't trim your post, they are going to be destroying whole forests for no reason! ;-) #81240 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:05 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Perfections Corner (74) nilovg Dear Han, welcome back. I am glad you post this. Could you speak about your own experiences with patience? Op 16-jan-2008, om 9:10 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > With the > perfection of patience one can stand heat or cold. > This means, that on account of hot or cold weather > akusala citta does not arise, that one has no > disturbance or annoyance. We should be aware of the > characteristic of the citta arising at such a moment, > we should know whether it is kusala or akusala. Is > there like or dislike of the weather? If we like it > there is lobha, attachment, and if we dislike it there > is dosa, aversion, and in both cases the perfection of > patience does not arise. The perfection of patience is > endurance with true calm at such moments, no > attachment nor aversion. ------- N: This illustrates the rpoximate cause of patience: seeing things as they really are. Understanding of realities is an indispensable support for patience and all paramis. Nina. #81241 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:09 am Subject: Re: Wife as object of awareness philofillet Hi Nina > > Thus, I have come to have this understanding of Naomi as one of three > > objects of awareness: pleasant wife, unpleasant wife, neutral wife. > > These days pleasant wife predominates, conditioning much clinging. > > This > > will result in great aversion when unpleasant wife arises. And > > ignorance with respect to neutral wife, easy to miss, is something to > > work on too. > ------- > N: Do you see Naomi? Do you touch Naomi? When you learn that seeing > does not see a person only colour it will help you to cling less to a > person, and thus less frustrations when there is a change. You know, I wrote that as a tongue-in-cheek thing, because I laughed out loud thinking of "pleasant wife, unpleasant wife, neutral wife" but I guess there is more to it than just a joke, isn't there? "When you learn that seeing does not see a person only colour it will help you to cling less to a person, and thus less frustrations when there is a change" Frst learning from a book, or hearing it, and a lot of thinking about it. I think that's as far as it can go for me, for now, but I do agree that when there is any kind of unpleasantness in life, thinking about paramattha dhammas helps to detach from the situation, it is a kind of balm, and balms are good, the Buddha taught us that remorse is a hindrance. On the other hand, I find reflection on paramattha dhammas is not helpful for detaching from desire and/or lust of any degree. So at this point reflection on "no Naomi" cannot help in detaching from clinging to her. Detaching from anger when she's a ....ahem...unpleasant wife, yes. Very much so! Metta, Phil #81242 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:15 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (74) philofillet Hi Han Welcome back! > $BE1(Batience has the characteristic of acceptance; its > function is to endure the desirable and undesirable; > its manifestation is tolerance or non-opposition; > seeing things as they really are is its proximate > cause.$B!&(B> What is the difference between these characteristics and the characteristics of equanimity (upekkha.) I guess the aspect of "endure" > The perfection of patience, khanti paaram$B!&(B has a wide > meaning. Patience is to be developed not merely > towards an undesirable object, but also towards a > desirable object. We should have patience towards a > desirable object so that lobha does not arise, so that > there is no attachment and delight in visible object > and the other sense objects that appear. Ph: Hmm. I often like to think this, but come to think of it it feels more like equanimity that would held to reduce "attachment and delight in visible object and other sense objects that appear." I guess khanti and upekkha team up a lot. > Khanti or patience is kusala, it is a sobhana > (beautiful) dhamma which does not arise with akusala > citta, with the citta rooted in attachment, but which > arises with kusala citta. Ph: I thought khanti isn't actually a dhamma, but is an aspect of the dhamma virya? Metta, Phil #81243 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:22 am Subject: Re: Swimming analogy philofillet Hi James > > James: Could you please explain the idea of "zero conditional"? I > don't know of anything within samsara which has zero conditions. Shame on you, English teacher!!! A zero conditional is a conditional like "if it rains, you get wet." So in the paccayas it would be contiguity condition, for example, when one javana citta is sure to condition the next. You're right, I should avoid using that grammar term when talking about Dhamma since the Big N is the only real zero conditional. > ps. Phil and All, not to lecture, but please remember to trim your > posts. Jesus, James, I always trim my posts. I noticed that I missed that one after it went, and repented in silence, and lo and behold you are all over my ass about it. You're right though. Metta, Phil #81244 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:37 am Subject: Re: Swimming analogy buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > > Hi James > > > > James: Could you please explain the idea of "zero conditional"? I > > don't know of anything within samsara which has zero conditions. > > Shame on you, English teacher!!! A zero conditional is a > conditional like "if it rains, you get wet." James: Gosh, I must be a bad English teacher because I am not even familiar with that usage. :-) So in the paccayas it > would be contiguity condition, for example, when one javana citta is > sure to condition the next. James: Okay, I can understand that that might be the main condition, but might there be others? You're right, I should avoid using that > grammar term when talking about Dhamma since the Big N is the only > real zero conditional. James: I wasn't trying to correct you. I still don't fully understand. I was not aware of the grammar term or the Dhamma term. I am one clueless individual! :-) > > > > ps. Phil and All, not to lecture, but please remember to trim your > > posts. > > Jesus, James, I always trim my posts. I noticed that I missed that > one after it went, and repented in silence, and lo and behold you > are all over my ass about it. You're right though. James: Haha...see, got ya! Don't let your guard down! This Hall Monitor is on patrol! ;-))))))) > > Metta, > > Phil > Metta, James #81245 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:43 am Subject: Re: Wife as object of awareness philofillet Hi James > James: No, thank you for such a delightful post! It is cute and yet > apropos. Satipatthana indeed has many levels. Ph: Thanks,I enjoyed it too. And yes, many levels. You know James, we both have been having a go at A.Sujin, but I think we can really benefit from reflecting on the "no James, no Sebtastian" kind of thing and are fortunate to have Dhamma frinds who are eager to go there. I remember when you were with Amr, and I wrote something about "no James, no Amr" when he was getting stressed out about some inter-cultural, inter-religious issue, and you both laughed your heads off at it. I thought that was odd, because when you get down to it, it *is* the Buddha's teaching. Rushing our and other people's understanding of it, as I did then and as I think A.S does a lot of the time can be a mistake, but it is ultimately the most liberating of truths, yeah? Let's count oursleves lucky to have friends who insist on getting at the really deep stuff, espcially since we are free not to go along with it too far, and have the good sense (in my opinion) not to. > When I visit Japan > (next year I hope), I will have to bring Sebastian with me so that > our two Asian wifes can mash, and we both can get the hell away from > them!! ;-)) Very much looking forward to meeting you guys when you come. BTW, maybe I mentioned this offlist, but I think you look a lot more butch/macho/sexy in the photos you sent me a few months ago than when you were in Egypt. I wonder if Sebastian is bringing out the beast in you....whatever you do, don't grow a beard.... Growwwlll... Metta, Phil p.s I'll be away for a few days again, starting right now.I've decided to do DSG with a few days gaps in-between. #81246 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:24 am Subject: Re: Q. [dsg] Perfections Corner (74) hantun1 Dear Nina, If you ask my own experience with patience, you will be disappointed. I have all along been very impatient. The situation is getting better since I started serious study and practice of Dhamma about ten years ago. But it is still very, very far away from the stage of the ‘Perfection.’ I think I will have to be ‘seeing things as they really are’ a lot more. I take your advice that the understanding of realities is an indispensable support for patience and all paramis. Respectfully, Han > ------- > Nina: I am glad you post this. Could you speak > about your own experiences with patience? > ------- > N: This illustrates the rpoximate cause of patience: > seeing things as they really are. > Understanding of realities is an indispensable > support for patience and all paramis. > Nina. #81247 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:48 am Subject: Re: Wife as object of awareness buddhatrue Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > Hi James > > > James: No, thank you for such a delightful post! It is cute and > yet > > apropos. Satipatthana indeed has many levels. > > Ph: Thanks,I enjoyed it too. And yes, many levels. You know James, > we both have been having a go at A.Sujin, but I think we can really > benefit from reflecting on the "no James, no Sebtastian" kind of > thing and are fortunate to have Dhamma frinds who are eager to go > there. I remember when you were with Amr, and I wrote something > about "no James, no Amr" when he was getting stressed out about some > inter-cultural, inter-religious issue, and you both laughed your > heads off at it. I thought that was odd, because when you get down > to it, it *is* the Buddha's teaching. James: No, that is not the Buddha's teaching! And I still laugh at such ridiculous statements because they are absurd. It is nonsense to say things like "No James, no Sebastian, No Amr, No Phil, No Naomi, etc." It is hogwash and not at all what the Buddha taught. Phil, I am still surprised that you buy into those platitudes. Let me quote from Ven. Nanavira since we have been discussing him on DSG lately: If a man sees a chariot in working order and says 'In the highest sense there is no chariot; for it is a mere assemblage of parts', all he is saying is 'It is possible to take this chariot to pieces and to gather them in a heap; and when this is done there will no longer be a chariot'. The argument, then, does not show the non- existence of the chariot; at best it merely asserts that an existing chariot can be destroyed. And when it is applied to an individual (i.e. a set of pañcakkhandhá) it is even less valid; for not only does it not show the non-existence of the individual, but since the functional arrangement of the pañcakkhandhá cannot be altered, even in imagination, it asserts an impossibility, that an existing individual can be destroyed. As applied to an individual (or a creature) the argument runs into contradiction; and to say of an individual 'In the highest sense there is no individual; for it is a mere asemblage of khandhá' is to be unintelligible. Rushing our and other people's > understanding of it, as I did then and as I think A.S does a lot of > the time can be a mistake, but it is ultimately the most liberating > of truths, yeah? Let's count oursleves lucky to have friends who > insist on getting at the really deep stuff, espcially since we are > free not to go along with it too far, and have the good sense (in my > opinion) not to. James: They don't really go to the deep stuff. That is illusion. > > > When I visit Japan > > (next year I hope), I will have to bring Sebastian with me so that > > our two Asian wifes can mash, and we both can get the hell away > from > > them!! ;-)) > > Very much looking forward to meeting you guys when you come. BTW, > maybe I mentioned this offlist, but I think you look a lot more > butch/macho/sexy in the photos you sent me a few months ago than > when you were in Egypt. I wonder if Sebastian is bringing out the > beast in you....whatever you do, don't grow a beard.... Growwwlll... James: LOLOL!! In Egypt I didn't eat very well; In Taiwan I eat much better so I have filled out and I am more muscular. But, at heart, I am still a tender butterfly ;-)). > > Metta, > > Phil > > p.s I'll be away for a few days again, starting right now.I've > decided to do DSG with a few days gaps in-between. Good choice. Make sure you meditate. #81248 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:52 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) hantun1 Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your keen interest. Text: “Patience has the characteristic of acceptance; its function is to endure the desirable and undesirable; its manifestation is tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they really are is its proximate cause.” Phil: What is the difference between these characteristics and the characteristics of equanimity (upekkha.) I guess the aspect of "endure" Han: The text says that Patience has the characteristic of acceptance, whereas Equanimity has the characteristic of promoting the aspect of neutrality. As you have rightly said, the Text in the chapter 10 says that endurance and forbearance are the perfections of patience. I personally think that equanimity supports patience. -------------------- Text: The perfection of patience, khanti paaramí, has a wide meaning. Patience is to be developed not merely towards an undesirable object, but also towards a desirable object. We should have patience towards a desirable object so that lobha does not arise, so that there is no attachment and delight in visible object and the other sense objects that appear. Phil: Hmm. I often like to think this, but come to think of it it feels more like equanimity that would held to reduce "attachment and delight in visible object and other sense objects that appear." I guess khanti and upekkha team up a lot. Han: I agree with your above comments. If you have equanimity towards sense objects you will be able to ‘endure’ or ‘bear’ with them without the arising of lobha or dosa. --------------------- Text: Khanti or patience is kusala, it is a sobhana (beautiful) dhamma which does not arise with akusala citta, with the citta rooted in attachment, but which arises with kusala citta. Phil: I thought khanti isn't actually a dhamma, but is an aspect of the dhamma virya? Han: Why do you think in that way? Respectfully, Han #81249 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:14 am Subject: Re: Wife as object of awareness philofillet --- . I thought that was odd, because when you get down > > to it, it *is* the Buddha's teaching. > > James: No, that is not the Buddha's teaching! And I still laugh at > such ridiculous statements because they are absurd. It is nonsense > to say things like "No James, no Sebastian, No Amr, No Phil, No > Naomi, etc." It is hogwash and not at all what the Buddha taught. > Phil, I am still surprised that you buy into those platitudes. Let > me quote from Ven. Nanavira since we have been discussing him on DSG > lately: Ph: Sorry, I don't know who Ven. Nanavira is and have to go cook dinner (arising of pleasant/unpleasant wife conditioned by state of dinner when arrival home from work arises) but my appreciation of "no phil, no naomi" comes from all the reading/reflecting I did in SN 35 rather than only listening to A.S, Nina and others. All those suttas getting at "the all" in very paramattha terms. On the other hand, as I posted recently, coming across the term "attabhavapatilabho", meaning "individual form of existence" did give me pause to consider whether "no phil" could be said to be true - in this lifetime, there is an "individual form of existence" and that *is* "phil." Anyways, interesting to keep reflecting on. > > > p.s I'll be away for a few days again, starting right now.I've > > decided to do DSG with a few days gaps in-between. > > Good choice. Make sure you meditate. OK, after a quick post to Han I am really out of here. So you later, butterfly. Metta, Phil #81250 From: "Phil" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:16 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) philofillet Hi Han Thanks for your feedback. > Phil: I thought khanti isn't actually a dhamma, but is > an aspect of the dhamma virya? > > Han: Why do you think in that way? I think I learned this, there is no cetasika khanti, it is an aspect of virya. Nina, or anyone? Metta, Phil #81251 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:51 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? upasaka_howard Hi, James - In a message dated 1/16/2008 12:31:55 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote: > There is a virtue to being "tight-lipped about any spiritual > accomplishments," don't you think? James: No, not when one is a teacher of Dhamma. As a matter of fact, is it not among the sangha rules > not to speak of such? James: No, it is against the rules to lie about such: Should any bhikkhu, without direct knowledge, claim a superior human state, a truly noble knowledge and vision, as present in himself, saying, "Thus do I know; thus do I see," such that regardless of whether or not he is cross-examined on a later occasion, he — being remorseful and desirous of purification — might say, "Friends, not knowing, I said I know; not seeing, I said I see — vainly, falsely, idly," unless it was from over-estimation, he also is defeated and no longer in affiliation. ============================ Ahh! Thank you for that correction. :-) With metta, Howard #81252 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:09 pm Subject: Re: TYPO FIX Re: [dsg] Re: My Understanding of Ajahn Sujin's Interp... upasaka_howard Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 1/16/2008 12:46:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@... writes: Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Had Nina not responded to your original post to Sarah, I would have done so on the same point, re: taking thinking for seeing. I hope you do not mind therefore, that I react to this one. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't mind. But I really haven't much interest in defending how I may have put matters in a particular post. I explained to Nina what my point is - so I'm not sure that I much to add. ------------------------------------------------------- ============== N: To me it seems that you do not speak about seeing, but about thinking on account of what is seen. When there is only seeing, it is not known whether the object is pleasant or not, or whether we rather turn the other side, whether we walk around the backyard. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm talking about setting up conditions that influence *what* we will see. And we can & do manage that all the time! Sukin: This is one reason why it is so important that we get the `theory' right. And this too, not only to remember, but continually reflect on it, re: cintamaya panna. Otherwise due to the accumulated ignorance, we end up perpetuating the beliefs in `cause and effect relationship' which is of the worldling, instead of beginning to understand the way that an Ariyan might see things. Nina I think was trying to draw your attention to this difference. She was saying that `seeing' is vipakka, the result of kamma from don't know when and is something not to be speculated upon. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: That requires no explanation to me. I know that seeing is a kammic fruit. As for knowing when & speculating, indeed much of what conditions what is unknown and hardly knowable, but some is very easily known. --------------------------------------------------------------- With this she was also asking you to distinguish this from the thinking / javana / kamma arising in between and not to mix them or try making any relations, because if and when we do this, as worldlings, we usually perceive a cause and effect relationship not in line with the Dhamma. --------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I always attempt to do such distinguishing, to be clear, and to not mix - as possible. You too? -------------------------------------------------------------- It is fine to go by the kind of thinking when living in the conventional world, such that for example, I control what my kids get to watch on TV. I'll even suggest to them about how seeing one kind of show is `bad' and another not. However if and when I have the chance of teaching them about Dhamma, here I would like them to be correct about it. I would like them to be able to distinguish kamma from vipakka, how one is "cause" and the other merely the "result". That they may `know' to some degree the former, the latter is however something they should just more or less accept. Certainly I would not want them to assume that the javana processes involved in the thinking and intention to turn away from a certain "sight" has *caused* the arising of any subsequent "seeing" experiencing another visible object! If they do, then instead of understanding anatta and conditionality, they would go way with even greater idea of `self' and control. Not only is javana taken to be controllable, but also vipakka and this wrong understanding is cumulative. -------------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here you get into textbook theory instead of attending to what arises, and it is here I lose interest. ------------------------------------------------------------ Even if we haven't yet got the sense of the javanas being conditioned and hence incontrollable, I think we should at least separate this from the vipakka and know that this latter is *result* only. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You speak of javanas (impulsions) as if you knew them. I have *some* experience with them due to careful watching. They are very interesting - fascinating even, and quite real. ----------------------------------------------------------- Besides when we mix the two in the way stated, aren't we also inclining away from the understanding of the workings of kamma and vipakka being unfathomable / imponderable? Howard, in another post you pointed out / compared your decision to deliberately sit down to meditate as being equally valid as any one of us deciding to sit in front of the computer to read DSG. I think the point to consider is this: If one of us were to talk about the experience of satipatthana while using the computer, should this be taken by someone else as a `practice' to follow, i.e. to sit and read DSG? ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I make no suggestions to you of what to practice. Do what you wish. ------------------------------------------------------------ In the same way when the Buddha talked to his disciples about what they might better "know" when they went on their routine "sitting at the shade of a tree with back erect experiencing Jhana", namely to study the five khandhas instead, is this about "knowing" the khandhas or is one asked to imitate the behavior of those monks? ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think the "descriptive" interpretation is nonsense. Okay? ---------------------------------------------------------- It is hard enough to know what arises naturally in accordance with our past kamma and accumulations, this including an infinitely supply of ignorance. But we can begin slowly to know this and it helps us not to think in terms of "goals", let alone have any unrealistic expectations. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't believe you have no goals/purposes, and if you had none, I think something would be wrong with you, and you would probably have to be under constant care. ------------------------------------------------------------- Trying to copy the activities of others no matter who and how noble the intention, is something we should be extra cautious about. We are after all not working at "ignorance" here, but instead encouraging it by taking the attention away from what might be conditioned to arise in the moment on to conforming to an "idea". ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: You have created a new catch-phrase of "copying the activities of others." The Buddha said "ehipassiko". I do, and it checks out. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard you also said that the `intention' to meditate is no different to intending to Dhamma study / discussion since this is based on the fact that the Texts state them as being factors to Stream Entry. I am quite sure that, even though we all understand this to be true and compare it with the relationship between, Pariyatti > Patipatti > Pativedha or Suttamaya panna, Cintamaya panna and Bhavanamaya panna, no one actually decides to study/ discuss with the particular thought in mind. The interest in Dhamma is the interest in Dhamma and this is conditioned as per level of accumulated understanding. For most of us, it is to hear and consider more and this would involve the conventional activity of reading and discussing. It is not like we seek to do these *because* we have read about the necessity of it, but rather we come to understand that such is conditioned and that according to the Texts, this happens to be the right thing to do. But then because we see that it is encouraged in the Texts, this adds to the confidence and conviction by sankhara and *not* by making up one's mind to "do it". Those who used to meditate before but now don't, they did not come to this through choosing between doing this over doing that. They `dropped' all doings and by conditions found themselves being interested in refining their understanding at the Pariyatti level. Can the same be said about any decision to practice `meditation'? I don't think so. While in the case of having an interest in Dhamma which then conditions the conventional activity of reading / discussing, there is no thought about giving rise to and identification with any desired mental states involved. Not even to think that the `activity' is kusala. In fact one is encouraged *never* to mistake the conventional activity in and of itself, to imply at any given moment, a reflection of a corresponding mental state. And this serves to prevent the whole thing from turning into a `rite and ritual'. Is this the same as in those who meditate? -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha taught and urged meditation, and there is no Dhamma without it. -------------------------------------------------------- This post of mine has been long as always and clearly against your own understanding. I hope you will be patient with it. Metta, Sukin. ============================= With metta, Howard #81253 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:32 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/16/2008 1:11:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard I just don't agree at all. LOL ----------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I know. -------------------------------------- What you've written below is obviously from a phenomenological/consciousness bent. This is clearly your tendency. You're welcome to it. --------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks. :-) And you're welcome to your "energism". ;-)) ------------------------------------ First of all, I'm not sure what an "eye-door-rupa" is ... from an Abhidhamma perspective or your perspective. To me its photons... ------------------------------------------ Howard: Even if there are photons outside of theory, we don't see photons. We see visual panoramas/color mosaics. What does a photon look like? If there is no answer to that it is because we don't see them, and that means they are not eye-door rupas. ---------------------------------------------- as far as a general theoretical model goes. So technically, I don't even consider a "desk" to be a visual object. But for practical purposes, we can speak of a desk as a visual object. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: It is a common way of speaking, though not in Buddhist parlance. ----------------------------------------------- However, my take on your argument below would be more like this... seems to me that physical phenomena that may act as a support for visual consciousness are able to be corroborated as "happening" independently from mere visual experience. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: They can be inferred. Certainly doing so provides a useful predictive theory. ------------------------------------------------ For example, the firmness of a desk can be felt, the change of sound due to reflections of the same can be detected, the smell of wood, and so on. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand you. I would sooner say that, literally, the hardness can be felt, but not the desk. The desk can only be cognized via the mind door. (Oops, I said "door" again! LOL!) We don't touch or see a desk, but mentally construct it from what IS touched and seen. That's my take. I understand - it's not yours. ------------------------------------------------ I think the sensible conclusion is that this physical phenomena, rupa if you rather, is a manifestation "independent" of visual experience. I mean, my rental house is still generating income even though its in another state I can't experience it at all. Seems like my renter would be foolish to keep sending me checks for a house that only arises when I am actually experiencing it. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, this, of course, is cute (really! :-), but not a refutation. In any case, I'm not looking to defend phenomenalism. My point about sights was made as clearly as I could. Nowhere is a sight found "in the world" (as part of a tree or table or unexperienced rental house even ;-) or even as a physics entity. Sights are found only as content of consciousness. ------------------------------------------------ Does it matter that you may be uncomfortable with the idea that "wood" manifests with or without consciousness of the same; while I think the notion is unimportant and "off the mark"? I guess not; as long as our minds are not attached to the idea. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not worrying about comfort or it's lack in this context. What is beyond experience is unknown. Might there be something, an "unseen" as the Buddha calls it? Sure, in theory. Though the Buddha says he does not conceive it. ----------------------------------------------- BTW, I think your title for this thread should have been ... Phenomenology vs Common Sense ;-) ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm, always good to choose one's labels in a way to make oneself "comfortable"! ;-)) -------------------------------------------- TG ======================= With metta, Howard #81254 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:34 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/16/2008 1:21:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: Hi Howard Now you got me all fired up. LOL OK, let's say we're in a light tight room. Then we switch on and off a light. Seems to me our visual consciousness is dependent on the light and not the other way around. Our consciousness rises and wanes much as a VU meter rises and wanes due to volume intensity. That should give you some nice stuff to play with. ;-) TG ============================== As you may realize, TG, I find this all understandable in phenomenalist terms. But in any case, the sight that occurred did so only as content of consciousness. With metta, Howard #81255 From: upasaka@... Date: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka. was: TYPO FIX upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/16/2008 3:46:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, please be patient with Sukin and me. Op 16-jan-2008, om 6:45 heeft Sukinder het volgende geschreven: > This is one reason why it is so important that we get the `theory' > right. And this too, not only to remember, but continually reflect on > it, re: cintamaya panna. Otherwise due to the accumulated ignorance, > we end up perpetuating the beliefs in `cause and effect relationship' > which is of the worldling, instead of beginning to understand the way > that an Ariyan might see things. ----------- N: If we do not have right understanding of seeing we miss the meaning of cause and effect. Here we need the abhidhamma, teaching us about the processes, where seeing is just one short moment that arises and where after that javana cittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise. Then visible object is experienced through the mind- door and after that there are other mind-door processes that define what is seen, etc. The Abhidhamma is also a support for satipatthana, where it is learnt that seeing is one kind of nama, and visible object is rupa, quite different from nama. But through insight it is clearly known what seeing is, and that is why it is through insight that kamma and vipaaka are understood. It is not easy to clearly know what seeing is, we mix it up with defining shape and form. We all do, very understandable. Cittas succeed each other so rapidly. --------- You wrote in another post: ----------------------------------------------- N: Looking at someone on TV is not seeing, there are moments of seeing but also moments of thinking, of defining. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nina, I KNOW that! I'm talking about the parts that ARE seeing. You are bringing up matters irrelevant to my point! ------------------------------------------------------- This is not vipaakacitta. As to kammic influence, this has to be kusala citta or akusala citta, but we cannot see, as Sukin explained, now this kusala or akusala will bring as result this moment of seeing. Besides, kusala and akusala do not always have the intensity of kamma that produces result. -------- H: -------- N: Covering the ears with aversion, this is akusala citta, but may not have the intensity of kamma. It is citta that causes the hands to move. This is not vipaaka. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: The motion is not kamma vipaka? (And, Nina, covering the nears with aversion is not citta. I'm speaking of the motion! It is RUPA!!) Converstaion becomes impossible if one person understands B when the other says A.) -------------------------------------------------- Perhaps you speak in a conventional way of vipaka as result. But the meaning of vipaaka is different. The sense-cognitions that experience visible object, etc. are vipaakacittas. We just have to be very precise, otherwise we accumulate wrong understanding of cause and effect. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I'm speaking about rupas that arise as objects of consciousness, doing so as the result of kamma. If they are not technically vipaka, please provide the acceptable term, and I will use that instead. ------------------------------------------------------ When covering the ears there may not be hearing, but there are many other vipakacittas, such as body-consciousness, some of which are the result of kusala kamma and some the result of akusala kamma. We cannot know how kamma operates. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do know that the vayo I spoke of arises with cetana as condition. ------------------------------------------------------ Nina. ========================= With metta, Howard #81256 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:25 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 14 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 500. "Anamatagge sa.msarato, mahi.m jambudiipamupaniita.m; kola.t.thimattagu.likaa, maataa maatusveva nappahonti. 501. "Ti.naka.t.thasaakhaapalaasa.m, upaniita.m anamataggato sara; catura"ngulikaa gha.tikaa, pitupitusveva nappahonti. 502. "Sara kaa.nakacchapa.m pubbasamudde, aparato ca yugachidda.m; sira.m tassa ca pa.timukka.m, manussalaabhamhi opamma.m. 503. "Sara ruupa.m phe.napi.n.dopamassa, kaayakalino asaarassa; khandhe passa anicce, saraahi niraye bahuvighaate. 504. "Sara ka.tasi.m va.d.dhente, punappuna.m taasu taasu jaatiisu; sara kumbhiilabhayaani ca, saraahi cattaari saccaani. 498. "[Remember] the earth, Jambudiipa, compared with that which is without beginning or end for one who is journeying on. [Split up into] little balls the size of jujube kernels, [the number] is not equal to his mother's mothers. 499. "Remember the greass, twigs, branches, and leaves complared with that which is without beginning or end. [Split up into} pieces four inches long, [they] are not equal to his father's fathers. 500. "Remember the blind turtle and the [turtle] putting its head through [it] as a comparison with the obtaining of human birth. 501. "Remember the form of this worst of bodies, unsubstantial, like a lump of foam. See the aggregates as impermanent. Remember the hells, giving much distress. 502. "Remember those filling up the cemetary again and again in brith and that. Remember the fears of crocodiles. Remember the four truths. RD: And how 'great India *431 would not suffice To furnish little tally-balls of mould, Wherewith to number all the ancestors Of one's own round of life world without end.' (498) Remember how 'the little squares of straws And boughs and twigs could ne'er suffice As tallies for one's sires world without end.' (499) Remember how the parable was told Of 'purblind turtle in the Eastern Seas, Or other oceans, once as time goes by, Thrusting his head thro' hole of drifting yoke'; So rare as this the chance of human birth. *432 (500) Remember too the 'body'-parable, The 'lump of froth,' of spittle without core, Drifting. See here the fleeting factors five. And O forget not hell where many thole. (501) Remember how we swell the charnel-fields, Now dying, now again elsewhere reborn. Remember what was said of 'crocodiles,' *433 And what those perils meant for us, and O! Bear ye in mind the Four, the Ariyan Truths. (502) *431 In the Vagga just alluded to, the earth itself, and not India (Jambudiipa), is the insufficient source. The 'squares of straw' is from the same Vagga. *432 This simile is from Majjhima Nik., iii. 169, and Sa.myutta Nik., v. 455. The 'body-parable' is from the latter work (iii. 140). The body (ruupa) is as empty of essence (soul) as the clot of foam drifting down the Ganges. *433 The danger from crocodiles is, in two of the Nikaayas, used metaphorically for gluttony, one of the four perils of 'those who go down to the water'; it is in the Canon applied only to a Bhikkhu's temptations (Majjh. Nik., i. 460; Ang. Nik., ii. 124). ..to be continued, connie #81257 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:35 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@... wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Alex: "unlike you I AM consciousness" > > Larry: If you are consciousness then I am you. Therefore I must be right > ;-) > > Larry > Oops I didn't write that part correctly. Sorry. Must have been evening. I was talking about hypothetical arguments between two people (I should have used person A & person B) #81258 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:42 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) hantun1 Dear Phil (and Nina), Phil: I think I learned this, there is no cetasika khanti, it is an aspect of virya. Nina, or anyone? Han: I am not sure if khanti is an aspect of viriya cetasika. Perhaps, Nina can give her comments. Respectfully, Han #81259 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > To me its photons...as far as a general > theoretical model goes. So technically, I don't even consider a "desk" to be a > visual object. But for practical purposes, we can speak of a desk as a > visual object. > > If there were no these photons, would their be any possibility of saying that the desk exists? > > However, my take on your argument below would be more like this... seems to > me that physical phenomena that may act as a support for visual > consciousness are able to be corroborated as "happening" Word "happening" is already a subjective statement. >>> For example, the firmness of a desk can be felt, the change of sound due to reflections of the same can be detected, the smell of wood, and so on. >>>> But this felt firmness, heard sound, the smell - these are subjective experiences! >>> I think the sensible conclusion is that this physical phenomena, rupa if you rather, is a manifestation "independent" of visual experience. >>>> Then you are talking about two independent realities. The one we percieve, and the one we don't. Now how can unpercieved (in any way) be a Reality? And how can PERCIEVED (which can only be subjective) be independent of observer? >>> I mean, > my rental house is still generating income even though its in another state I can't experience it at all. >>> In dreams something like this can happen with no external objects. >>>>>>> Seems like my renter would be foolish to keep > sending me checks for a house that only arises when I am actually > experiencing it. >>>> Experiencing can be on though level as well, not just 5 consciousness. Furthermore it is just a speculation that a rental house exists outside of your consciousness. This sentence itself is subjective and not outside of YOUR perceptions. Lots of Metta, Alex #81260 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:45 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: J: "If this is the opinion you hold then why do you listen to the interpretations of K. Sujin?...If I had to pick one, I would pick the one who practices what he preaches- and that sure wouldn't be K. Sujin!" Scott: I appreciate your comments. I don't consider K. Sujin to be my teacher, although I do read and listen to her. I'd enjoy meeting her but would likely not say a word. I also totally appreciate the Going Forth, as well and so I'm glad you make that point - I'm not disrespecting the Sangha. I'm on the side of tight-lipped being better than blowing one's own horn vis-a-vis 'accomplishments'. I've had to do with some who have felt they had attained the Path, liked to mention it, and , after time and interaction with them, considered them to have been simply full of themselves. I think your attitude towards K. Sujin is a good one to have. You are not seeking to turn her into some spiritual heroine onto which to project all of your own spiritual aspirations. It was this latter tendency that I was opining about and think is dangerous. Sincerely, Scott. #81261 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Howard > > Now you got me all fired up. LOL > > OK, let's say we're in a light tight room. Then we switch on and off a light. Seems to me our visual consciousness is dependent on the light and not the other way around. >>>> Lightness and darkness obscuring vision can happen in dreaming as well. Furthermore any word in your paragraph regarding this is a perception! Nothing which you have said goes outside of your cognition! Some can say that the wall has really independent existence out there. "If you place a wall between you and some object, then you will not see that object, the wall will obscure it. This proves that there is space and outside objects." Answer: In dreams as well you can have walls and objects obscuring the view of objects behind them. And as someone has said (Kant?) time & space are the ways the mind sorts out the data. Lots of Metta, Alex #81262 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:36 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 4, no 3. nilovg Dear friends, When there is awareness and right understanding we are not troubled by any situation. We can understand that what we take for a person is only citta, cetasika (mental factors accompanying citta) and rúpa (physical phenomena). The more we read and consider the teachings, the more we come to understand that dhammas arise because of their own conditions, that they are anattå. We cling to mettå and take it for “my mettå”, but it should be understood as a conditioned dhamma. If we had not heard about the characteristic of true mettå we could not think about it or develop it. Acharn Sujin had arranged for the giving of food to beggar children outside the gates of the Jeta Grove. All the children lined up very peacefully and we shared out the packedges of food that were brought from Thailand. This was a happy occasion to develop mettå and dåna naturally and spontaneously. When mettå arises, there are no conditions for aversion about other people’s contrarious behaviour, we do not harm or hurt others, but we see them as true friends. The four Brahma Vihåras are the fundamentals of a peaceful society. We see many poor people in India and instead of aversion about their condition there can be compassion and also equanimity. Equanimity, upekkhå, is another brahma vihåra. This is not indifferent feeling but it is the sobhana cetasika evenmindedness, tatramajjhattatå. We are not always able to help other people who suffer from a loss of dear ones or a calamity. When we remember that nobody can prevent kamma from producing its appropriate result, kusala citta arises instead of aversion. When we have anxiety because of the sorrowful events that occur in the world, we should remember that whatever happens is conditioned. Kusala citta can motivate us to speak consoling words with kindness and compassion. We may have worry and anxiety about someone else’s health, but understanding of the truth of kamma and vipåka can condition evenmindedness instead of anxiety. Mettå and upekkhå are also qualities that are perfections, påramís. Each time we are on pilgrimage in India, we reflect on the perfections the Buddha had to accumulate during countless lives before he became the Sammåsambuddha. The perfections are an unique, unsurpassed, unequalled set of moral and spiritual ideas, covering all aspects of human behaviour. Acharn Sujin said that it is of no use to cling to the names of the perfections, but that all of them have to be developed at this moment. When there is an opportunity for kusala through body, speech or mind, we should not delay the performance of kusala and at such moments the perfections are developing. ****** Nina. #81263 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:54 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka. was: TYPO FIX nilovg Hi Howard, Op 16-jan-2008, om 13:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Nina, I KNOW that! I'm talking about the parts that ARE seeing. You > are > bringing up matters irrelevant to my point! > ------------------------------------------------------- > N: Sorry, sorry. How is your cold? > -------- > N: Covering the ears with aversion, this is akusala citta, but may > not have the intensity of kamma. It is citta that causes the hands to > move. This is not vipaaka. > ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The motion is not kamma vipaka? (And, Nina, covering the ears with > aversion is not citta. I'm speaking of the motion! It is RUPA!!) > Converstaion > becomes impossible if one person understands B when the other says A.) > -------------------------------------------------- > N: Motion is not kamma vipaka, definitely not. Motion is the > element of wind, rupa as you say also. When we speak in > conventional language saying that we move the hand, there is citta > that conditions the arising of rupa in different locations. > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I'm speaking about rupas that arise as objects of consciousness, doing > so as the result of kamma. If they are not technically vipaka, > please provide > the acceptable term, and I will use that instead. > ------------------------------------------------------ > N: The term vipaka is not used for rupa, only certain types of > citta are vipaaka. Some rupas are produced by kamma, such as the > senses. Eyesense is the physical result of kamma. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I do know that the vayo I spoke of arises with cetana as condition. -------- N: Conditioned by citta and cetasikas including cetana. This does not mean that it is result produced by cetana or kamma. Perhaps here is our misunderstanding. You think of willing the motion at a particular moment and think of result produced at that same moment. But when we speak of rupa as a result of kamma such as eyesense, it means: past kamma keeps on producing the eyesense. It refers to past kamma that produces a rupa later on. Particular rupas, not all kinds. The physical result of kamma can never arise at the same time or in the same process as kamma. ****** Nina. #81264 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:21 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) nilovg Dear Han and Phil, Op 16-jan-2008, om 14:42 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Phil: I think I learned this, there is no cetasika > khanti, it is an aspect of virya. Nina, or anyone? > > Han: I am not sure if khanti is an aspect of viriya > cetasika. Perhaps, Nina can give her comments. ------ N: Khanti is not in the list of cetasikas, but it is an aspect of viriya, as was discussed here before. Think of endurance, holding out, perseverance, are these not aspects of viriya? Not all of the perfections are particualr cetasikas, for example determination. But they show certain aspects of particular cetasikas. **** Nina. #81265 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:29 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka. was: TYPO FIX upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/16/2008 9:55:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: > Howard: > I do know that the vayo I spoke of arises with cetana as condition. -------- N: Conditioned by citta and cetasikas including cetana. This does not mean that it is result produced by cetana or kamma. Perhaps here is our misunderstanding. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nothing arises from a single condition, and I didn't say here that the motion is "produced" by kamma in the sense of the kamma being the sole condition, but only that kamma/cetana was "a" condition for for the motion. There is an impulse to move, and the movement follows. Obviously other conditions were also requisite, but the cetana was a major condition. The same thing happens when I'm relaxing with eyes closed, and someone says "Look at that!" There is a rapid willing that occurs, and the eyes open. This is an instance of kamma immediately leading to a rupa result. If 'vipaka' pertains only to consciousness, then the motion that occurs - that rupa which is resultant - is not called "vipaka", but it is no less a result. Nyanatiloka would describe it as "kamma-samuttaana-ruupa" ('corporeality produced through kamma'). Let's not get bogged down in my using 'vipaka' when I should have said 'kamma-samuttaana-ruupa'. It's not terminology that's important, Nina, but facts. --------------------------------------------------- You think of willing the motion at a particular moment and think of result produced at that same moment. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, not the same moment, but very quickly after. ----------------------------------------------- But when we speak of rupa as a result of kamma such as eyesense, it means: past kamma keeps on producing the eyesense. It refers to past kamma that produces a rupa later on. Particular rupas, not all kinds. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The motion that occurs when turning one's head or opening one's eyes may not be the sort of resultant rupa you are thinking of, but it still is a rupa conditioned (rather directly, in fact) by kamma/cetana. And this is crystal clear. There is no need to look it up in a book. -------------------------------------------------- The physical result of kamma can never arise at the same time or in the same process as kamma. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I never claimed that it did, nor do I believe that it does. I don't understand why you make the point, Nina. Did you think I believed them to be simultaneous? Hmm - I look back at my sentence 'I do know that the vayo I spoke of arises with cetana as condition.' Perhaps you thought that "with cetana as condition" meant simultaneity. That was not my meaning, but only that cetana was one of the conditions leading to the motion occurring. ========================= With metta, Howard #81266 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:36 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas TGrand458@... Hi Alex In a message dated 1/16/2008 6:45:30 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: If there were no these photons, would their be any possibility of saying that the desk exists? .................................................................. TG: Not really... due to the fact that photons are crucial life support.... i.e., heat and much more. Nothing we know could have possible arisen without photons, or the energy thereby. .......................................................... > > However, my take on your argument below would be more like this... seems to > me that physical phenomena that may act as a support for visual > consciousness are able to be corroborated as "happening" Word "happening" is already a subjective statement. ............................................................ TG: Please explain. ......................................................... >>> For example, the firmness of a desk can be felt, the change of sound due to reflections of the same can be detected, the smell of wood, and so on. >>>> But this felt firmness, heard sound, the smell - these are subjective experiences! ................................................ TG: By subjective you mean what? ... tainted with a "sense-of-self" or merely experienced? If the former, I'd say -- not necessarily. If the latter, I'd say -- obviously. .................................................... >>> I think the sensible conclusion is that this physical phenomena, rupa if you rather, is a manifestation "independent" of visual experience. >>>> Then you are talking about two independent realities. The one we percieve, and the one we don't. Now how can unpercieved (in any way) be a Reality? And how can PERCIEVED (which can only be subjective) be independent of observer? ............................................................ TG: Its just a matter of common sense. I deduce that the street outside continues a relatively consistent presence even when I am not experiencing it. I have yet to pull out of my driveway and enter a Black Hole. I am not talking about any "realities." All notions of "realities" are subjective. Conditions arise and alter in accordance with conditions...that is al l that is happening. Consciousness is just another condition. Only experience experiences, but there is no experiencer. Deductions based on memories of past experiences are a form of knowledge but are relative and fallible. Similarly, our knowledge of present experiences and what they are, are relative a fallible. The Buddha deals with analogies of "external objects" and "past events" all the time without apology. He doesn't feel compelled to justify "their reality" one way or the other. Nor do I. ................................................................ >>> I mean, > my rental house is still generating income even though its in another state I can't experience it at all. >>> In dreams something like this can happen with no external objects. >>>>>>> Seems like my renter would be foolish to keep > sending me checks for a house that only arises when I am actually > experiencing it. >>>> Experiencing can be on though level as well, not just 5 consciousness. Furthermore it is just a speculation that a rental house exists outside of your consciousness. This sentence itself is subjective and not outside of YOUR perceptions. .................................................... TG: I'm not claiming that anything "I'm" thinking are outside "my" perceptions. That's not the point. Truthfully, you are right that the rental house is just speculation. But its ridiculous and absurd to carry on with such a tenuous stance ... and outside a realm of philosophical discussion, I don't think many, if any, actual do. Since in my view the Buddha did not teach philosophy, it is a non-issue for him. In fact, for the Buddha, "speculation" would be arguing over what is real or not!!! LOL TG #81267 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/15/2008 1:50:26 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Being objects of consciousness is their *mode* of existence. Likewise, there is no consciousness existing other than as the knowing of content. Being knower of an object is the *mode* of existence of consciousness.consci ................................ Hi Howard Can you explain these is more detail? It sounds like your saying that nama and rupa support each other ... but are "Grandoseizing it" in some sort of "consciousness priority" presentation. Basically, it sounds like you are uncomfortable with your own presentation and therefore add the "content" and "object" passages. But instead of rupa/form, you are using "content" and "object" which seems an attempt to try to hedge it toward a consciousness priority or within a "consciousness venue." To me, name and form are "equal opportunity" conditions and are just conditions doing conditioning; and the issue of consciousness vs form is a philosophical distraction. TG #81268 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:57 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka. was: TYPO FIX nilovg Hi Howard, Op 16-jan-2008, om 18:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Let's not get bogged down in my using 'vipaka' > when I should have said 'kamma-samuttaana-ruupa'. It's not > terminology that's > important, Nina, but facts. ------- N: I still think there are misunderstandings here and I feel it important to clear them up. I want to give this some thought and will not respond now. Nina. #81269 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:03 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? nilovg Hi Howard and James, Rob K quoted a text that it is forbidden for monks to speak about attainments such as jhana. I think that laypeople would become partial and would only want to give to those bhikkhus or prefer to give to them. Nina. Op 16-jan-2008, om 12:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > As a matter of fact, is it not among the sangha rules > > not to speak of such? #81270 From: Dieter Möller Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? moellerdieter Hi Alex , James , Rahula , Howard ..all interested , 'This is similiar to what I was saying to Scott, "There is no concern of Atta or Anatta" in Nibbana. Or it could be said that "Nibbana is beyond "atta, anatta, and their permutations". D: yes, the issue of 'neither nor...' , the relation between the (wet ) cloth and the ('black') hole ;-) There are interesting contributions for this topic ( incl. the thread ' My understanding of..) which I haven't read all in detail..sorry in case of repeat I like Ven. Nanavira's comments and will have a closer look into the archive of the home page. He mentioned however beginning of the 60ties that his publications before should be taken with caution ..not sure whether that includes the quoted article which has been written before. ( B.T.W. Ven. Nyanatiloka ordained him as novice ..) Interesting too James' comment : "ps. Nanavira doesn't include nibbana in the category of "dhamma", and I agree with him. I included nibbana in my definition of dhamma, but with reservations, because I have found one sutta where the monk is not supposed to "assume" nibbana to be self. Officially, I say that nibbana should not be viewed as self or non-self, but if it must be viewed (as humans are apt to do) it should be viewed as non-self as opposed to self. " I have and had always difficulties to accept Ven Nyanatiloka's statement :snip .." the 'all-embracing term dhamma (thing); for dhamma includes also the Unformed or Unconditioned Element , i.e. Nibbana ..snip " because of ' one is differentiating non-differentiation' by ' unformed ' similar to 'anatta ': it is only a negation of what is , i.e. not 'neither nor..'. Though it is not possible - using the simile of the Ven. Nanavira- to describe the hole (within the cloth) by means of the wet cloth, but ' if ..it must be viewed ', as James writes, 'it should be viewed as non...' Now , how is it possibile to say that Nibbana is included in Dhamma ..? respectively in repsect to Abhidhamma , how is it possible to group nibbana as one of the four elements of Paramattha Dhamma? Refering for example to: MN 26 :"Monks, there are these two searches: ignoble search & noble search. And what is ignoble search? There is the case where a person, being subject himself to birth, seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to birth. Being subject himself to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, he seeks [happiness in] what is likewise subject to illness... death... sorrow... defilement.... "And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search" unquote which refers to our being within the world of dhammas vs. Nibbana, doesn't it? Having another sutta source in mind too, in which the Dhamma is compared with a raft , supposed to be left behind after reaching the other shore, I doubt that the Buddha expressed such (Paramattha Dhamma) grouping , respectively used Dhamma as an all bracing term including Nibbana . Is there any evidence to view it otherwise? with Metta Dieter #81271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:13 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? nilovg Hi James, Op 16-jan-2008, om 5:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > K. Sujin: Accepts and encourages cash > donations ------ N: You may disagree with Kh sujin but you should not tell what is untrue. Nina. #81272 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:24 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/16/2008 1:09:10 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: In a message dated 1/15/2008 1:50:26 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Being objects of consciousness is their *mode* of existence. Likewise, there is no consciousness existing other than as the knowing of content. Being knower of an object is the *mode* of existence of consciousness.consci ................................ Hi Howard Can you explain these is more detail? ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not sure. I'll try. ----------------------------------------------------- It sounds like your saying that nama and rupa support each other ... but are "Grandoseizing it" in some sort of "consciousness priority" presentation. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't identify 'rupa' with 'matter'. For me there is nothing that I can know of other than a) experiencing (in a variety of ways) and b) what is experienced - the content or object of experiencing. For me, the experiencing and the experienced are two poles of something that might be called "experience", sometimes called "the subjective pole" and "the objective pole," respectively. The primary sort of object-pole phenomenon is physical content/object (a.k.a. rupa), and the secondary sort is mental content/object, which includes mental qualities and mental operations (a.k.a. nama). The subject-pole phenomena are acts of consciousness and the various concomitant operations (a.k.a. cetasikas). Without rupas, no namas (either as subject or object), and without namas (as subject), no rupas. If you want to call that "consciousness prioritization," you're free to do so. I think it gives at least as much priority to rupa. ---------------------------------------------------- Basically, it sounds like you are uncomfortable with your own presentation and therefore add the "content" and "object" passages. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not in the slightest. I was just giving you details. This is how I view things, and it has nothing to do with any discomfort. (You've been on DSG too long, TG - you're starting to think you're a mind reader! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- But instead of rupa/form, you are using "content" and "object" which seems an attempt to try to hedge it toward a consciousness priority or within a "consciousness venue." -------------------------------------------- Howard: I simply don't want to mislead you into thinking that I identify rupa with matter. I'm not trying to hedge anything. I'm saying what I think .. period. -------------------------------------------- To me, name and form are "equal opportunity" conditions and are just conditions doing conditioning; and the issue of consciousness vs form is a philosophical distraction. TG ========================= With metta, Howard #81273 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka. was: TYPO FIX upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/16/2008 1:57:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 16-jan-2008, om 18:29 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > Let's not get bogged down in my using 'vipaka' > when I should have said 'kamma-samuttaana-ruupa'. It's not > terminology that's > important, Nina, but facts. ------- N: I still think there are misunderstandings here and I feel it important to clear them up. I want to give this some thought and will not respond now. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. Misunderstandings are always possible. ------------------------------------------- Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard #81274 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and James) - In a message dated 1/16/2008 2:04:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard and James, Rob K quoted a text that it is forbidden for monks to speak about attainments such as jhana. I think that laypeople would become partial and would only want to give to those bhikkhus or prefer to give to them. Nina. Op 16-jan-2008, om 12:51 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > As a matter of fact, is it not among the sangha rules > > not to speak of such? =============================== I did think there was something along such lines. Is it in a sutta or in the Vinaya Pitaka? With metta, Howard #81275 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/16/2008 12:24:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: I simply don't want to mislead you into thinking that I identify rupa with matter. I'm not trying to hedge anything. I'm saying what I think .. period. ................................. Hi Howard That's the second time in your post you made reference to "matter." For the record, I don't identify rupa as matter either. I believe nama and rupa are just designations that pertain to sentient beings. Non-sentience merely gets the designation rupa. Abhidhamma (and perhaps the suttas?) speaks of beings that are in a "lifeterm" of no consciousness. These "lifeforms" would consist of mere rupa, as I understand it. Is this not a temporal case of rupa "being" as apart from consciousness? How do you consider the 6 elements of -- "the four great elements" plus "space" and "consciousness." It seems your vision lacks a spatial element and is just mere contact. TG #81276 From: upasaka@... Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:12 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas upasaka_howard Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/16/2008 3:45:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@... writes: In a message dated 1/16/2008 12:24:55 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, upasaka@... writes: Howard: I simply don't want to mislead you into thinking that I identify rupa with matter. I'm not trying to hedge anything. I'm saying what I think .. period. ................................. Hi Howard That's the second time in your post you made reference to "matter." For the record, I don't identify rupa as matter either. I believe nama and rupa are just designations that pertain to sentient beings. Non-sentience merely gets the designation rupa. ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: What you are saying isn't clear to me. ---------------------------------------------------- Abhidhamma (and perhaps the suttas?) speaks of beings that are in a "lifeterm" of no consciousness. These "lifeforms" would consist of mere rupa, as I understand it. Is this not a temporal case of rupa "being" as apart from consciousness? ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: I have no judgement as regards such "lives". As I view it, such a life for a "being" would consist of an instantaneous blip in consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------- How do you consider the 6 elements of -- "the four great elements" plus "space" and "consciousness." ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I haven't much of a clue with regard to space. I tend to think of it as a relational aspect of physical experience. ------------------------------------------------ It seems your vision lacks a spatial element and is just mere contact. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: No, spatial experience exists for me. Maybe you mean something else? I'm not sure what. --------------------------------------------- TG ========================= With metta, Howard #81277 From: "Alex" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:57 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas truth_aerator Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > Hi Alex > > > In a message dated 1/16/2008 6:45:30 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > truth_aerator@... writes: > > If there were no these photons, would their be any possibility of > saying that the desk exists? > > .................................................................. > > TG: Not really... due to the fact that photons are crucial life > support.... i.e., heat and much more. > > Nothing we know could have possible arisen without photons, or the energy > thereby. > But these photons are concepts, aren't they. Infact ANY word that you say is a perception. > > > > However, my take on your argument below would be more like > this... seems to me that physical phenomena that may act as a support for visual consciousness are able to be corroborated as "happening" > > Word "happening" is already a subjective statement. ............................................................ > > TG: Please explain. >>> Anything that can be put into words belongs to one or more of the 6 (or more) consiousness. Happening is quite a loaded word (perception) and has no meaning outside of the consiousness which is required for there to be meaning or measuring. > > ......................................................... > > > >>> > For example, the firmness of a desk can be felt, the change of > sound due to reflections of the same can be detected, the smell of > wood, and so on. > >>>> > > But this felt firmness, heard sound, the smell - these are > subjective experiences! > > ................................................ > > TG: By subjective you mean what? ... tainted with a "sense-of- self" or > merely experienced? If the former, I'd say -- not necessarily. If the latter, > I'd say -- obviously. >>>> By subjective I mean belonging to one or more of 6 (or more) sense consiousnesses. Sense of self is a concept (belongs to 6th consiosness, the intellect). > > .................................................... > > > >>> > TG: Its just a matter of common sense. >>> Common sense isn't always correct. "I" exist is a common sense, yet we know that it is just a deluded perception. >>> I deduce that the street outside continues a relatively consistent presence even when I am not experiencing it. >>> Keyword "deduce". The fact is that you are only experiencing the idea of a street outside, without the usual sense perception of it. >>> > I have yet to pull out of my driveway and enter a Black Hole. >>>> Just like in a dream thing may follow in a certain order and in a certain way, so is here. Just because we know only our own cognition, it doesn't mean that everything happens all at the same time and all at the same place. There can be "order" (of various sorts) in dreams as well. >>>>>> > I am not talking about any "realities." All notions of "realities" are subjective. >>>> Exactly. The idea of independent object existing out there is just that, a subjective "reality" ultimately UNPROVABLE. A person can't check independence of the world from his cognition through going totally unconsiousness. Asking a second (a consious) guy to verify it will not work since that 2nd guy IS conscious, thus there is world of cognition for him. >>> Conditions arise and alter in accordance with conditions...that is al > l that is happening. Consciousness is just another condition. >>>> Yes. One of the reasons why we can't simply will the world to be as we want is because what we experience now is also based on what has happened in the past which we cannot change. The so called matter is a result of past volition (kamma) and thus it can't easily be changed. This is from the suttas. In fact, in some way, the mind creates the world. This is from Pali Suttas, btw. >> > Only experience experiences, but there is no experiencer. >> True. We can also say "experienced is an experience". >>>>>> > The Buddha deals with analogies of "external objects" and "past events" all the time without apology. He doesn't feel compelled to justify "their reality" one way or the other. Nor do I. >>>> Well you know the standart line about two kinds of speech. Ultimately what matters is "stress and its cessation". > > TG: I'm not claiming that anything "I'm" thinking are outside "my" perceptions. That's not the point. Truthfully, you are right that the rental house is just speculation. But its ridiculous and absurd to carry on with such a tenuous stance ... and outside a realm of philosophical discussion, I don't think many, if any, actual do. Since in my view the Buddha did not teach > philosophy, it is a non-issue for him. In fact, for the Buddha, "speculation" would be arguing over what is real or not!!! LOL > > TG You know what is real? Suffering, its cause, its cessation and the path to its cessation! Ultimately it is the pragmatic result which matters, and the result we are looking for is the Ultimate Happiness (through absence of all suffering) called NIBBANA! Lots of Metta, Alex #81278 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am Subject: Dominant Abilities.. bhikkhu0 Friends How is the gradual refinement of the 5 mental abilities? There are these 5 mental Abilities: The ability (faculty) of faith, The ability of energy, The ability of awareness, The ability of concentration, The ability of understanding. What are the six aspects of these abilities? They are being dominant. They are purifying the beginning. They are excellence. They are steadying. They are terminating. They are founding upon. How are the abilities to be understood in the sense of being dominant? When one leaves behind sceptic doubt, the faith ability is found in one as being dominated by definitive decision. This faith ability dominated by resolute determination to decision, then facilitates exertion, establishment, non-distraction and seeing. When one leaves behind laziness, the energy ability is found in one as being dominated by exertion of effort. This energy ability dominated by exertion of effort, then facilitates establishment, non-distraction, seeing and decisiveness. When one leaves behind negligence, the awareness ability is found in one as being dominated by establishing. This awareness ability dominated by establishing, firmly founded, then facilitates non-distraction, seeing, decisiveness and exertion. When one leaves behind agitation, the concentration ability is found in one as being dominated by non-distraction. This concentration ability dominated by non-distraction, steady, then facilitates seeing, decisiveness, exertion and establishing. When one leaves behind ignorance, the understanding ability is found in one as being dominated by seeing. This understanding ability dominated by seeing, penetrative and clear, then facilitates decisiveness, exertion, establishing and non-distraction. This is how the abilities are to be found & understood through dominance. Source: Sariputta in: The Path of Discrimination: Patidasambhidamagga: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) http://What-Buddha-Said.net ..... #81279 From: han tun Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) hantun1 Dear Nina, Thank you very much for your kind clarification. Can I tell you one thing if you don’t mind? You wrote: Think of endurance, holding out, perseverance, are these not aspects of viriya? Why asking me back that question? It would be much simpler if you just wrote “endurance, holding out, and perseverance are the aspects of viriya.” If I knew that endurance, holding out, perseverance, are the aspects of viriya, I would not have requested for your comments. Is it an evidence of my impatience? :>)) Respectfully, Han #81280 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:36 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thanks for the reply: > > J: "If this is the opinion you hold then why do you listen to the > interpretations of K. Sujin?...If I had to pick one, I would pick the > one who practices what he preaches- and that sure wouldn't be K. Sujin!" > > Scott: I appreciate your comments. I don't consider K. Sujin to be my > teacher, although I do read and listen to her. James: I'm a little confused about this comment. If you read and listen to K. Sujin then she is your teacher. Unless you read and listen to her and disagree with what she writes and states. I'd enjoy meeting her > but would likely not say a word. James: This is also a very strange comment. If you would enjoy meeting her then it would be because you could talk to her. Or do you just want to look at her? Is she so sexy to you that you would be tongue-tied?? ;-)) I also totally appreciate the Going > Forth, as well and so I'm glad you make that point - I'm not > disrespecting the Sangha. James: Glad to hear it. I would hope not. > > I'm on the side of tight-lipped being better than blowing one's own > horn vis-a-vis 'accomplishments'. I've had to do with some who have > felt they had attained the Path, liked to mention it, and , after time > and interaction with them, considered them to have been simply full of > themselves. James: Well, I don't really mean blowing one's own horn. But, if you are listening to a Dhamma teacher, and he/she is teaching about jhana (for example), but has never achieved a jhana, then you should know that information. If he/she talks about what it takes to reach a stage of enlightenment but has never personally reached a stage of enlightenment, then you should know that information. Those who speak on authority of numerous Dhamma subjects, but never reveal what they have achieved (or not achieved), are suspect. The Buddha taught about the stages of enlightenment for a reason- it is important. Of course, anyone who 'brags' about such things is probably lying. > > I think your attitude towards K. Sujin is a good one to have. You are > not seeking to turn her into some spiritual heroine onto which to > project all of your own spiritual aspirations. James: Well, I have my Buddhist heroes, who I look up to, but KS isn't one of them. My attitude toward KS is that she is dangerous toward the Dhamma and so I will speak about against her teachings. (And I don't mean a little dangerous; I mean VERY dangerous!) It was this latter > tendency that I was opining about and think is dangerous. James: It is okay to have faith in people and the Triple Gem. I am not against faith. But you should be careful who you place your faith in. > > Sincerely, > > Scott. > Metta, James #81281 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:42 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > Op 16-jan-2008, om 5:50 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > > > K. Sujin: Accepts and encourages cash > > donations > ------ > N: You may disagree with Kh sujin but you should not tell what is > untrue. > Nina. How is it untrue? Metta, James #81282 From: TGrand458@... Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas TGrand458@... In a message dated 1/16/2008 3:58:05 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, truth_aerator@... writes: You know what is real? Suffering, its cause, its cessation and the path to its cessation! Ultimately it is the pragmatic result which matters, and the result we are looking for is the Ultimate Happiness (through absence of all suffering) called NIBBANA! Lots of Metta, Alex ...................................... Hi Alex Good! We can agree on that. And that's what really matters. Re: Photons... I just consider photons a model and not "an actual thing in and of itself." Electromagnetic energy is a form of dispersion IMO, one of the four great elements. "In whatever way one conceives, the fact is ever other than that." -- The Buddha. TG #81283 From: LBIDD@... Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:21 pm Subject: Outline of the Purification of View V.2 lbidd2 Hi all, This is page two of the outline. Vism: Herein, 'purification of view' is the correct seeing of mentality-materiality. One who wants to accomplish this, if, firstly, his vehicle is serenity, should emerge from any fine-material or immaterial jhana, except the base consisting of neither perception or non-perception, an he should discern, according to characteristic, function, etc., the jhana factors consisting of applied thought, etc., and the states associated with them, [that is, feeling, perception, and so on]. When he has done so, all that should be defined as 'mentality' (naama) in the sense of bending (namana) because of its bending on to the object. Then, just as a man, by following a snake that he has seen in his house, finds its abode, so too this meditator scrutinizes that mentality, he seeks to find out what its occurrence is supported by and he sees that it is supported by the matter of the heart. After that, he discerns as materiality the primary elements, which are the heart's support, and the remaining kinds of materiality that have the elements as their support. He defines all that as 'materiality' (ruupa) because it is 'molested' (ruppana) [by cold, etc.]. After that he defines in brief as 'mentality-materiality' (naama-ruupa) the mentality that has the characteristic of 'bending' and the materiality that has the characteristic of 'being molested'. Larry: "If his vehicle is serenity". Insight is for two kinds of people. One whose vehicle is serenity (jhana) and one whose vehicle is pure insight. We will discuss procedures for the insight worker in the next installments. "He should discern according to characteristic, function, etc." The key term here is "discern". We will find it throughout this chapter. Discerning according to characteristic, function, manifestation, and proximate cause seems to be limited to the jhana factors and their associated states. The insight worker seems to only identify mental states. Kinds of rupa are only identified. What discernment entails seems to be open to interpretation. The general idea here is to "discern" every kind of nama and rupa within a general organizing principle, here the experience of jhana. It is not so much a regarding of experience as a group of dhammas as it is experiencing and recognizing every kind of dhamma. Regarding 'bending' and 'molested' for 'nama' and 'rupa', this is a teaching etymology based on similarly appearing words. There are different ways of distinguishing between nama and rupa, such as 'rupa has no object' or 'rupa is care free', but the way to distinguish them here is by 'bending' and 'molested'. For 'molested' I think the meaning is that rupa as a whole, such as a body, is vulnerable in many ways. For 'bending' Ven. ~Nanarama has this to say: "As the meditator continues to keep his calm mind on the point of contact of the air being inhaled and exhaled (i.e. either at the tip of the nose or on the upper lip), he begins to feel as though his mind approaches and strikes the meditation subject. This happens at a developed stage in his meditation when he becomes aware of the distinction between mind and matter. The mind has the nature of bending towards or leaping towards an object." "All that should be defined as mentality ... he defines all that as materiality". Again, a sense of comprehensive understanding is essential. Larry #81284 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:48 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? nilovg Hi James, pure slander. Nina. Op 17-jan-2008, om 2:42 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > K. Sujin: Accepts and encourages cash > > > donations > > ------ > > N: You may disagree with Kh sujin but you should not tell what is > > untrue. > > Nina. > > How is it untrue? #81285 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:05 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) nilovg Dear Han, Op 17-jan-2008, om 1:47 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven: > Why asking me back that question? It would be much > simpler if you just wrote “endurance, holding out, and > perseverance are the aspects of viriya.” > > If I knew that endurance, holding out, perseverance, > are the aspects of viriya, I would not have requested > for your comments. > > Is it an evidence of my impatience? :>)) ------- N It was just a rhetorical question, nothing more. I like to consider aspects of viriya for myself and see what others think. I do not like it to put as a statement: this must be viriya, etc. Always good to ask for comments, we discuss Dhamma in daily life and I find it useful. You spoke also in your other post about impatience, but we all have impatience, very common, we are worldlings. When the object is just right for impatience, it can come out. We all have different objects that trigger impatience. We can be patient about one thing, but very impatient with another thing. Interesting to think of examples. Another factor is tiredness and lack of health, though this should not be an excuse. And it need not be a decisive factor, it could be, but not always, don't you think so, as a doctor? When understanding is accumulated, it condiitons patience in any situation, adhivasana khanti. Even the very sickness can be a challenge for patience. The trouble is that we mostly think of situations and persons, instead of, as Sarah says, 'minding our own citta' and being aware of nama and rupa. This will cure us of the belief in a person. ***** Nina. #81286 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:13 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi James, > pure slander. > Nina. Please stop being evasive. How is it untrue and pure slander? Metta, James #81287 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:34 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) hantun1 Dear Nina, Nina: It was just a rhetorical question, nothing more. I like to consider aspects of viriya for myself and see what others think. I do not like it to put as a statement: this must be viriya, etc. Always good to ask for comments, we discuss Dhamma in daily life and I find it useful. Han: I am sorry I missed your good intention. I thought you were admonishing me for not knowing that endurance, holding out, and perseverance are the aspects of viriya. My first understanding of viriya was as described in the Commentary to the “Basket of Conduct” which defines energy, or viriya, as follows: Energy has the characteristic of striving (ussaaha lakkhanaa); its function is to fortify (upatthambhana rasa); its manifestation is infatigability (a-sansiidana paccupathaana); an occasion for the arousing of energy, or a sense of spiritual urgency, is its proximate cause (sanvega padatthaana). Furthermore, vacanattha or the meaning of the word viriya is defined as “viirassa bhaavo viiriyam” which connotes ‘bravery.’ Therefore, my first understanding of viriya was exertion or efforts and bravery. Dr. Mehm Tin Mon wrote that it may be defined as the state of being energetic or courageous. It has the characteristic of supporting, upholding or sustaining its concomitants. As a leaning old house, supported by new pillars, may not fall, so also concomitants, supported by viriya, will not give way. Dr. Mehm Tin Mon added that according to Atthasaalini, viriya should be regarded as the root of all achievements. Thus I know that viriya has a wide variety of meanings. But I am not sure if it includes khanti. That’s why I sought your advice. On the whole, I am satisfied with your explanations which also dealt with my previous post on my impatience. Thank you very much. Respectfully, Han #81288 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:47 am Subject: Perfections Corner (75) hantun1 Perfections Corner (75) Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) When visible object appears, seeing-consciousness experiences it, and it can be known that there is no being, no person, no self. If we have no patience to be aware of the characteristic of the reality appearing at this moment, we cannot reach the further shore, that is, nibbaana. If we do not have endurance with regard to lobha and dosa, defilements cannot be eliminated. If we lack patience we cannot reach the further shore, nibbaana, we cannot penetrate the four noble Truths. Learning about the ten perfections will help us to investigate whether we accumulate the perfections which are still deficient and if we see their value and significance there are conditions for them to grow and develop. We should be patient while we investigate and consider realities thoroughly, so that we acquire right understanding of them and practise in the right way. Without right understanding there are no conditions for the arising of right mindfulness which is aware of the characteristics of realities that appear. To be continued. Han #81289 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:55 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? nilovg Hi James, perhaps we have a misunderstanding here. I understood from your former post that you said that A.S. encourages it to receive cash for herself. The contrary is true, she only thinks of giving away. Even her house she does not care about and let her family use it. Then she lives also in Kaeng Kracan where Kh Duangduen arranged for two houses. And now she lives in the one house of Kh Duangduen and let the other house be used for Dhamma guests. When she receives presents she immediately gives them away. She does not care for any possessions. Or did you mean something else? Then your intention was not clear. Nina. Op 17-jan-2008, om 11:13 heeft buddhatrue het volgende geschreven: > Please stop being evasive. How is it untrue and pure slander? #81290 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:08 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 15 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 505. "Amatamhi vijjamaane, ki.m tava pa~ncaka.tukena piitena; sabbaa hi kaamaratiyo, ka.tukataraa pa~ncaka.tukena. 506. "Amatamhi vijjamaane, ki.m tava kaamehi ye pari.laahaa; sabbaa hi kaamaratiyo, jalitaa kuthitaa kampitaa santaapitaa. 507. "Asapattamhi samaane, ki.m tava kaamehi ye bahusapattaa; raajaggicora-udakappiyehi, saadhaara.naa kaamaa bahusapattaa. 508. "Mokkhamhi vijjamaane, ki.m tava kaamehi yesu vadhabandho; kaamesu hi asakaamaa, vadhabandhadukhaani anubhonti. 509. "Aadiipitaa ti.nukkaa, ga.nhanta.m dahanti neva mu~ncanta.m; ukkopamaa hi kaamaa, dahanti ye te na mu~ncanti. 503. "When the undying exists, what do you with drinking the five bitter things? For all the delights of sensual pleasure are more bitter than the five bitter things. 504. "When the undying exists, what do you want with sensual pleasures that are burning fevers? For all delights in sensual pleasures are on fire, scorching, seething, aglow. 505. "When there is no enemy, what do you want with sensual pleasures that have many enemies? Being similare to kings, fire, thieves, water, and unfriendly people, they have many enemies. 506. "When release exists, what do you want with sensual pleasures in which are slaughter and bonds? For in sensual pleasures through inferior sensual pleasure, people suffer the pains of slaughter and bonds. 507. "A grass firebrand, when kindled, burns the one who holds it and does not let go. Sensual pleasures are truly like firebrands. They burn those who do not let go. RD: THE NECTAR OF THE NORM IS HERE! *434 O how Canst thou be satisfied with bitter draughts Of sense satiety? All sensual joys Are bitterer for the fivefold dogging Ill. *435 (503) THE NECTAR OF THE NORM IS HERE! O how Canst thou be satisfied with fevered fits Of sense-satiety? All sensual joys Are burning, boiling, ferment, *436 stew. (504) THERE IS, WHERE ENMITY IS NOT! *437 O how Canst thou be satisfied with joys of sense Engend'ring thee so many foes - the wrath Or greed of king, or thief, or rival, harm Through fire, or water - yea, so many foes! (505) EMANCIPATION *438 WAITS! O how canst thou Be satisfied with sensual joys, wherein Lie bonds and death? Yea, in those very joys Lurk gaol and headsman. *439 They who seek t' indulge Their lusts needs must thereafter suffer ills. (506) Him will straw-torches burn who holds them long And lets not go. So, in the parable, *440 Desires of sense burn them who let not go. (507) *434 Nectar = amata.m, rendered elsewhere in this work by 'ambrosia,' its etymological equivalent. Usually considered one of the many terms for Nibbana, it is here by the commentarial tradition associated with the Dhamma - 'the Amata of the Norm brought to us by the Very Buddha in his great compassion.' *435 Lit., 'Are bitterer by the fivefold-bitter,' explained by the Commentary as 'by the following after of the yet sharper Ill' (dukkha.m). Fivefold, referring to the five senses. *436 Kuthitaa may be from one of three roots: kuth, smell; kuth, distressed; kvath, cook (cf. Mu:ller, Pali Grammar, 41). The first, chosen by Dr. Neumann, seems forced here. The last accords best with the other three metaphors of heating process. *437 Lit., 'The unhostile being' (locative absolute). The Pali has no metaphor of place whatever. *438 Mokkhamhi vijjamaane, lit., exists. Mokkho, probably substituted metri causa for vimutti, is a relatively late term. *439 These two terms are, in the text, the same as the corresponding pair in the preceding line. *440 In Majjhima Nik., i. 365, where the torch is said to be borne against the wind, not held too long. from: -CAF Rhys Davids: Psalms of the Sisters, with the Chronicle from the Commentary by Dhammapaala entitled 'The Elucidation of the Highest Meaning'. PTS 1909 @ http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/davids/psalms/psalms.html -Wm Pruitt: The Commentary on the Verses of the Theriis: Theriigaathaa-A.t.thakathaa, Paramatthadiipanii VI by Aacariya Dhammapaala. PTS 1999 -txt/cy: vri cscd, tipitaka.org to be continued, connie #81291 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:58 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas truth_aerator Hi TG, > > "In whatever way one conceives, the fact is ever other than that." -- The > Buddha. Would this apply to a concieving on 89 cittas, dozens of cetasikas, ultimate categories? Lots of Metta, Alex #81292 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:04 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupas Depend on Namas upasaka_howard Hi, Alex & TG - > > "In whatever way one conceives, the fact is ever other than that." -- The > Buddha. > Would this apply to a concieving on 89 cittas, dozens of cetasikas, ultimate categories? Lots of Metta, Alex =============================== TG, I had missed that citation of yours. It's quite interesting. I'd like to know more of the details & especially the context. Do you recall a reference for it? With metta, Howard #81293 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:41 am Subject: Citation Correction Re: Rupas Depend on Namas upasaka_howard Hi, all - In a message dated 1/15/2008 3:50:03 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes: In the Bahiya Sutta, the Buddha said "... the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe a seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe a to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer." [I take this to mean the following: There is no seen sight independent the seeing of it, there is no unseen sight, there is no existing thing waiting to be seen, and there is no "one who sees." ================================ This was not from the Bahiya Sutta. It was from the Kalaka (or Kalakamara) Sutta, viewable at _http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.024.than.html_ (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.024.than.html) . Sorry for the error. With metta, Howard #81294 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:43 am Subject: Re: Citation Correction Re: Rupas Depend on Namas upasaka_howard Hi again - In a message dated 1/17/2008 8:41:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Upasaka writes: Kalaka (or Kalakamara) Sutta ============================ That's "Kalakarama"!!! (Eventually I'll get this right! ;-)) With metta, Howard #81295 From: "rahula_80" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:50 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? rahula_80 Hi Dieter, >... because I have found one sutta where the monk is not supposed to "assume" nibbana to be self. < Can you let us know whic sutta? It would be great if you could post the sutta here. Thanks, Rahula #81296 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:56 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? truth_aerator --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > > Hi Dieter, > > > >... because I have found one sutta where the monk is not supposed > to "assume" nibbana to be self. < > > Can you let us know whic sutta? It would be great if you could post > the sutta here. > > Thanks, > Rahula > I think it is from MN#1 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html Worldling: "He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding.7 Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you. Trainee: "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, let him not conceive things about Unbinding, let him not conceive things in Unbinding, let him not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, let him not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' let him not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you. Arahant "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because, with the ending of delusion, he is devoid of delusion, I tell you. #81297 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:13 am Subject: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 pannabahulo Dear Dhamma friends, There are IMHO clearly two contradictory and opposing views on this topic. On the one hand there is the DSG consensus view that any kind of `formal meditation practice' is a complete waste of time unless there has been a vast amount of pariyatti preceding it which has led to the development of wisdom and insight. Further, that there are necessary accumulations that must be present in order for this to happen. Then there is the opposing view that patipatti must come first and that wisdom will result from this. This view was expressed by the late Ven Ajan Chah and summed up in the quote I included in a previous e-mail. However, that view is very strongly put forward by the late Ven Ajan Buddhadassa. In `Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree' (Wisdom Publications edition) he said: "In Buddhism, the essential meaning of the word "study" is the unceasing, dedicated observation and investigation of whatever arises in the mind, be it pleasant or unpleasant. Only those familiar with the observation of mind can really understand Dhamma. Those who merely read books cannot understand and, what's more, may even go astray. But those who try to observe the things going on in the mind, and always take that which is true in their minds as their standard, never get muddled. They are able to comprehend dukkha and ultimately will understand Dhamma. Then, they will understand the books they read." Of course accumulations are necessary for the practice of meditation. Most people cannot meditate at all. And there is no doubt in my mind that most of the wisdom I have accumulated as a meditator has been the result of patipatti. Meditation is very difficult. I remember a time, nearly twenty years ago, when my teacher the Ven Ajan Tong had to give me a kick up the backside to get me out of my books and back into practice. It was so much easier to study than to practice. Those days are gone now as my power of memory gets weaker. Practice is also difficult as I (in the conventional sense) carry so many defilements that reading the articles on the BBC's news website pale into insignificance. I see formal practice much as Sayadaw U Tejaniya views formal retreats i.e.it's like going to school, but we don't stay in school all our lives. The Buddha taught a middle path between extremes. I propose that a middle path between the two extreme views outlined above is to sit for a certain set period for formal practice each day and then make time for formal study. The practice of meditation can be seen as a way of centering ourselves and developing mindfulness and thus concentration. By doing that, the observation of mind throughout our daily lives would be made easier. Not for nothing did the Lord Buddha claim, "The life of the householder is crowded and dusty, but the way of the monk is wide open" (MN) Most of you are lay people – householders – who have to deal with so many problems and the frantic rush of modern life. If I – as a monk - feel a need for formal practice so as to develop mindfulness, how much more so for those of you who are city dwellers with families and other responsibilities? I am offering the consideration of a middle path here; I look forward to any replies or comments. Please let me say now that I will appreciate your remarks and will be grateful to receive them. I say "Than you" now to save clogging up the site with further "Thank you"letters. With metta and every blessing, Pannabahulo #81299 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:53 am Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear James, Thanks for the reply: James: "I'm a little confused about this comment. If you read and listen to K. Sujin then she is your teacher. Unless you read and listen to her and disagree with what she writes and states." Scott: No, I don't consider her to be my teacher simply because I read what she writes or listen to talks. I consider the Dhamma to be the Teacher. James: "This is also a very strange comment. If you would enjoy meeting her then it would be because you could talk to her. Or do you just want to look at her? Is she so sexy to you that you would be tongue-tied?? ;-))" Scott: Good one. I imagine I'd just listen and see what I understood. I don't know if I'd actually have anything to say. I suppose I might have a question but maybe not. James: "Well, I don't really mean blowing one's own horn. But, if you are listening to a Dhamma teacher, and he/she is teaching about jhana (for example), but has never achieved a jhana, then you should know that information. If he/she talks about what it takes to reach a stage of enlightenment but has never personally reached a stage of enlightenment, then you should know that information. Those who speak on authority of numerous Dhamma subjects, but never reveal what they have achieved (or not achieved), are suspect. The Buddha taught about the stages of enlightenment for a reason- it is important. Of course, anyone who 'brags' about such things is probably lying." Scott: Why the interest in another's 'achievements'? Doesn't this simply reflect a similar interest in one's own 'achievements' and isn't this rather missing the point - the focus on and pursuit of 'achievements'? James: Well, I have my Buddhist heroes, who I look up to, but KS isn't one of them. My attitude toward KS is that she is dangerous toward the Dhamma and so I will speak about against her teachings. (And I don't mean a little dangerous; I mean VERY dangerous!)" Scott: I think Idealising and Devaluing are at different ends of the same stick. I don't see a need to have 'heroes' or 'villians' (except in the movies or in books of course). James: "It is okay to have faith in people and the Triple Gem. I am not against faith. But you should be careful who you place your faith in." Scott: Never in a Person. Sincerely, Scott. #81300 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:11 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 - Fixed few errors truth_aerator Dear Bhante, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: Further, that there are > necessary accumulations that must be present in order for this to > happen. >>> Is this in the Suttas? How much accumulations did Angulimala had left after murdering 999 people? Through Buddha's guidance even he, a masss murderer, managedto become an Arahant. I don't think anyone here has murdered 999people, probably not even 1. Thus, an often heard "I don't have enough merit" can be simply a convinient excuse not to practice. In any ways if merit is important then read this: 5. From the Itivuttaka, Sutta 27 (spoken by the Buddha) Bhikkhus, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the heart-deliverance of loving-kindness; in shining and beaming and radiance the heart-deliverance of loving- kindness far excels them. Just as whatever light there is of stars, all is not worth one sixteenth part of the moon's; in shining and beaming and radiance the moon's light far excels it; and just as in the last month of the Rains, in the Autumn when the heavens are clear, the sun as it climbs the heavens drives all darkness from the sky with its shining and beaming and radiance; and just as, when night is turning to dawn, the morning star is shining and beaming and radiating; so too, whatever kinds of worldly merit there are, all are not worth one sixteenth part of the heart-deliverance of loving-kindness; in shining and beaming and radiance the heart-deliverance of loving-kindness far excels them. As practiced with Insight in the Four Truths 14. From the Anguttara Nikaya, 4:125 (spoken by the Buddha) Here, bhikkhus, a certain person abides with his heart imbued with loving-kindness extending over one quarter, likewise the second quarter, likewise the third quarter, likewise the fourth quarter, and so above, below, around, and everywhere, and to all as to himself; he abides with his heart abundant, exalted, measureless in loving- kindness, without hostility or ill-will, extending over the all- encompassing world. He finds gratification in that, finds it desirable and looks to it for his well-being; steady and resolute thereon, he abides much in it, and if he dies without losing it, he reappears among the gods of a High Divinity's retinue. Now the gods of a High Divinity's retinue have a life-span of one aeon. An ordinary person (who has not attained the Noble Eightfold Path) stays there for his life-span; but after he has used up the whole life-span enjoyed by those gods, he leaves it all, and (according to what his past deeds may have been) he may go down even to hell, or to an animal womb, or to the ghost realm. But one who has given ear to the Perfect One stays there (in that heaven) for his life-span, and after he has used up the whole life-span enjoyed by those gods, he eventually attains complete extinction of lust, hate and delusion in that same kind of heavenly existence. It is this that distinguishes, that differentiates, the wise hearer who is ennobled (by attainment of the Noble Path) from the unwise ordinary man, when, that is to say, there is a destination for reappearance (after death, but an arahant has made an end of birth). 15. From the Anguttara Nikaya, 4:126 (spoken by the Buddha) Here, bhikkhus, a certain person abides with his heart imbued with loving-kindness extending... over the all-encompassing world. Now whatever therein (during that state of contemplation) exists classifiable as form, classifiable as a feeling (of pleasure, pain, or neutrality), classifiable as perception, classifiable as determinative acts, or classifiable as consciousness, such ideas he sees as impermanent, as liable to suffering, as a disease, as a cancer, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as being worn away, as void, as not-self. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears (as a non-returner) in the retinue of the Gods of the Pure Abodes (where there are only those who have reached the Noble Path and where extinction of greed, hate and delusion is reached in less than seven lives without return to this world). And this kind of reappearance is not shared by ordinary men (who have not reached the Noble Eightfold Path). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nanamoli/wheel007.html > Of course accumulations are necessary for the practice of meditation. >>> See above. Metta is the highest merit. > Most people cannot meditate at all. And there is no doubt in my mind > that most of the wisdom I have accumulated as a meditator has been > the result of patipatti. Bhante. There is a difference between intellectual wisdom and experiencial one. Reading the menu and tasting it are two different levels. >>>> > Meditation is very difficult. It was so much easier to study than to practice. >>>> NO KIDDING! Furthermore many westerners approach Buddhism as a PHILOSOPHY (thus all the clinging towards Abhi"dhamma") rather than as a practice of loosing Greed (including for intellectual items), Anger & Delusion! > Those days are gone now as my power of memory gets weaker. Practice > is also difficult as I (in the conventional sense) carry so many > defilements that reading the articles on the BBC's news website pale > into insignificance. > I see formal practice much as Sayadaw U Tejaniya views formal > retreats i.e.it's like going to school, but we don't stay in school > all our lives. > The Buddha taught a middle path between extremes. I propose that a > middle path between the two extreme views outlined above is to sit > for a certain set period for formal practice each day and then make > time for formal study. Good advice! Study the suttas (DN, MN, SN, AN) and put them into action! One of the reasons why I like the suttas is because they say what to do and what to avoid. For example one who is obsessed talking about "I or YOU don't exist", can't even become a sotapanna - nothing to say about Arahatship! (mn2) This is why sutta study is important, to avoid holding onto wrong views. But of course it must be put into action for it to work. --- "This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of- the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html Or alternative but SIMILIAR translation http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/002-sabbasava-sutta-e1.htm The fact remains is that focusing on noself (or self), AM I? Am I not?, is not the way toward Stream! ------ Step by step instruction which can lead to Stream doesn't focus on atta or anatta (atleast in th beginning). Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the awareness of the entire assembly with his awareness, asked himself, "Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?" He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., a talk on giving, a talk on virtue, a talk on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when he saw that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elated, & bright, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation." Having seen the Dhamma, reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more perplexity, having gained fearlessness & independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message, he rose up from his seat and went to the Blessed One. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.5.03.than.html Few things: Note the subjects leading to stream: 1) giving, - Dana 2)a talk on virtue, -Sila 3)a talk on heaven; (about results of good Kamma) 4)drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensual passions, 5)Rewards of renunciation. And when one is ready -> 6) 4 NT which includes Samma-Samadhi. In fact the description of clean mind here is what happens in Jhana (up to 4th). By this point the Suppabuddha has reached the 8th factor of N8P and achieved stream. It is interesting how the 5 topics above aren't talked about very often on the Buddhist boards and samma-samadhi is talked down. This effectively blocks one progress toward stream, damages the sassana and the one who 'helped' other people not to progress. Another interesting thing. One of the signs of stream entry is independence from others regarding Buddha's message (meaning, a sotopanna will never depend on ANY commentator such as Buddhaghosa or teacher OTHER THAN THE BUDDHA. Today his teaching remains in the Suttas). >>> The practice of meditation can be seen as a way of centering ourselves and developing mindfulness and thus concentration. >>>> It is more than that. Meditation is also about practicing letting go of Greed, Anger & Delusion and to see Stress, its cause, its cessation and the path to its cessation. Our minds have been deluded for so long that we require a LOT of deconditioning! Meditation is also about developing insight wisdom into conditionality and pain of attachments.Letting go is blissful, attachments is painful. Lots of Metta, With Dhamma, Alex #81301 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:51 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 4, no 4. nilovg Dear friends, The perfections of generosity, síla, renunciation, wisdom, energy, patience, truthfulness, determination, mettå and upekkhå are all connected with each other. When mettå arises, the citta is humble and gentle and at such a moment one also observes síla, one does not hurt others. Síla is one of the perfections. When we attend to the needs of others, we renounce our own comfort, we develop the perfection of renunciation. We should remember the Sutta of the Divine Messengers, which is an exhortation not to be negligent in performing kusala through body, speech and mind when we see an old person or a sick person. We may regret our negligence later on, we are also subject to old age, sickness and death. Paññå is the leader of all perfections, it supports all levels of kusala, and without right understanding of dhammas the perfections cannot be developed. The perfections are means to become purified of akusala. It is not beneficial to cling to an idea of “my resolve for mettå” and the other perfections. Kusala is not “I” or “mine”, but a dhamma arising because of conditions. Paññå is the leader of all perfections, it supports all levels of kusala. The purpose of the teachings is detachment from the idea of self and from all realities, even from kusala. There is no specific time for the development of the perfections, it can gradually become one’s nature to develop them. When we see someone, can there be friendliness or compassion? Patience, khanti, is one of the perfections, but we may easily take for patience what is not patience but akusala citta. When someone else speaks disagreeable words to us and we do not answer back, we may believe that we are patient, wheas in reality we may keep silent with akusala cittas. Or we have an idea of “my patience” and cling to it. Patience does not mean indolence and despair. When we have patience we are courageous and we persevere in the development of understanding and all kinds of kusala, even though we do not notice a rapid progress. Acharn Sujin reminded us of the Buddha’s words about patience, courage and cheerfulness. We should be happy and grateful that we can still listen to the Buddha’s teachings, even though he passed away many centuries ago. Acharn Sujin said that the perfections wash away the dust from the citta. They lead to detachment. Our goal should be more understanding and less attachment. ********* Nina. #81302 From: Dieter Möller Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:06 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? moellerdieter Hi Rahula ,Alex , James ... you wrote: >... because I have found one sutta where the monk is not supposed to "assume" nibbana to be self. < Can you let us know whic sutta? It would be great if you could post I quoted James , who perhaps may have another sutta in mind than Alex suggested .. hence over to James .. with Metta Dieter #81303 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 nilovg Venerable Bhikkhu Pannabahulo, Op 17-jan-2008, om 15:13 heeft pannabahulo het volgende geschreven: > I am offering the consideration of a middle path here; I look forward > to any replies or comments. > Please let me say now that I will appreciate your remarks and will be > grateful to receive them --------- N: You remarks are food for thought. I have to consider your life as a monk. You have more time to sit quietly and consider the Dhamma, and that is also mental development or meditation. Reading a sutta and 'meditate' about it is bhaavanaa. If one wants to develop meditation subjects of samatha it is advisable to learn about these first, otherwise one is at a loss what to do. The Visuddhimagga makes very good reading as to the subjects of meditation. At the same time it is beneficial to learn more about the different types of citta so that one does not take for kusala what is lobha. Lobha plays us many tricks. I think that there are no rules what a person should do or should not do. It depends on one's accumulated inclinations. These condition the different cittas that motivate our actions. We can learn that not a self decides to do this or that, but cittas arising because of the appropriate conditions. I find it helpful to remember this in my life. With respect, Nina. #81304 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of the Purification of View V.2 nilovg Hi Larry, thank you. As to your first installment I just want to add: L: ------- N: Here we see three levels of defilements: the coarse ones appearing in transgressions, the medium ones appearing as akusala cittas that arise, and the subtle ones that are the latent tendencies. The last ones are eradicated by the development of vipassana. -------- Second Installment: Op 17-jan-2008, om 3:21 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > One who wants to accomplish this, if, firstly, his vehicle is > serenity, > should emerge from any fine-material or immaterial jhana, except the > base consisting of neither perception or non-perception, an he should > discern, according to characteristic, function, etc., the jhana > factors > consisting of applied thought, etc., and the states associated with > them, [that is, feeling, perception, and so on]. When he has done so, > all that should be defined as 'mentality' (naama) in the sense of > bending (namana) because of its bending on to the object. .... > After that, he discerns as > materiality the primary elements, which are the heart's support, > and the > remaining kinds of materiality that have the elements as their > support. > He defines all that as 'materiality' (ruupa) because it is 'molested' > (ruppana) [by cold, etc.]. After that he defines in brief as > 'mentality-materiality' (naama-ruupa) the mentality that has the > characteristic of 'bending' and the materiality that has the > characteristic of 'being molested'. ---------- N I see it that also when someone has attained jhana and emerges from it, he should be mindful of nama and rupa. He should develop insight of whatever appears. All stages of insight. > > Larry: " > "He should discern according to characteristic, function, etc." The > key > term here is "discern". We will find it throughout this chapter. > Discerning according to characteristic, function, manifestation, and > proximate cause seems to be limited to the jhana factors and their > associated states. The insight worker seems to only identify mental > states. Kinds of rupa are only identified. What discernment entails > seems to be open to interpretation. ------- N: Discerning: developing right understanding of both nama and rupa, not merely the jhanafactors. He has to know the difference between nama and rupa , he will reach the first stage of insight. --------- > L:... the way to distinguish them here is by 'bending' and 'molested'. ------- N: These are merely word associations. More important: to attend to the different characteristics of nama and rupa. The bending towards an object can remind us that nama experiences and rupa does not experience anything. I do not know Ven. ~Nanarama you quote. ------ Nina. #81305 From: "shennieca" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:06 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 shennieca Hello Nina, Can you please explain what is meant by "Reading a sutta and 'meditate' about it is bhaavanaa" ? Did our Buddha say that it's possible to do so? Which sutta is it? With mettaa, Elaine #81306 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:49 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? philofillet Hi James You know, there are lots of things that irritate me about A. Sujin's presentation of the Dhamma, but let me say something on this point. I receieved lots of books from Nina and Sarah, and mentionned to Nina my desire to make a cash donation of some kind to the foundation. She told me how to do so, but there was never an ounce of pushing on her part to do so. I think of the A. Sujin was money- oriented, that would spread down to the students and I would have been encouraged to make a donation. And also, you like A. Lee right? I'm planning to ask T.B's monastery to send me a copy of his book. They need money to distribute Dhamma. The U.S Postal Service doesn't take handfuls of sticky rice! The foundation of course needs money to distribute Dhamma materials. I don't really get where you are going with this.... ..and anyways, A. Sujin is a layperson, nobody disputes that, so why shouldn't she take money? The Buddha says householders have a duty to look after this sort of thing, to make a living so they are not burdens on others. I guess your original point was that Scott should listen to an ordained teacher rather than a layperson. Aside from having more time to practice in a concentrated way, why would an ordained person necessarily have better understanding of Dhamma? Probably, yes, but necessarily so? (I'm sure like me you have come across monks on the 'net who have demonstrated shaky knowledge on some Dhamma points.) I would say that one thing that should be picked on is this ridiculous notion that she is not a teacher, that people don't rely on her as a teacher, only rely on the texts. That may be true for Scott, but not for all the people who travel from around the world to sit with her and discuss Dhamma with her. They very much rely on her as a teacher and it seems untruthful to deny. That is why I always call her AS rather than KS because this Khun business, just one of the guys, seems untruthful to me. Yes, that is how she wants to be called, but that doesn't matter. She's a revered teacher (which is great) and should be addressed as one, seems to me. My point in this post is to encourage you away from this money thing. There are so many other areas to discuss when questioning A.Sujin's approach. (I think I have used up my need to vent for the next couple of months...) Metta, Phil #81307 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:53 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (74) philofillet Hi Han, Nina, Connie and all > Khanti or patience is kusala, it is a sobhana > (beautiful) dhamma which does not arise with akusala > citta, with the citta rooted in attachment, but which > arises with kusala citta. In light of khanti not being a cetasika, can it still be called a dhamma? Or can an aspect of a different cetasika (virya) still be called a dhamma? I would guesss not. Not to nitpick, just to clarify definition of dhamma. Thanks. Metta, Phil #81308 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:05 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Phil, Nina, and All, There is a major misunderstanding in this regard, and perhaps it is mainly my fault because I didn't explain throughly enough. In the post that has your dander up, I was making a comparison between a monk (Ven. Nanavira) and K. Sujin, and stating who would be a better teacher of the Dhamma based on their lifestyles. When I wrote that K. Sujin accepts and encourages cash donations, I did not mean that she does so for herself. At the time, honestly, I was thinking of her "Foundation". You cannot have a Foundation which is a specific building, unless you accept cash donations. I wrote an e-mail to Nina off-list which explains everything: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phil" wrote: > > > > Hi James > > You know, there are lots of things that irritate me about A. > Sujin's presentation of the Dhamma, but let me say something on this > point. LETTER TO NINA: Okay, well then what I wrote wasn't untrue or pure slander. I just wrote that K.Sujin accepts and encourages cash donations; and a Buddhist monk does not. I didn't say what she used the donations for, and I didn't suspect that she was buying herself a new car or house or anything of the sort (or I would have said so on DSG a long time ago!). Of course, with cash donations, there are always problems of greed arising. That is why a monk is much more pure in this regard. I was making a comparison between a monk and KS, and concluding that a monk is much more pure. Personally, I don't care if she accepts cash donations as she would have to in order to have a foundation. And, I wrote that she encourages cash donations because she has a foundation in the first place. Just it's existence encourages donations. Selling books and tapes at the foundation also encourages donations. But, again, nothing wrong with that. Just not as pure as a monk. So, that is why I kept asking you to explain what you meant when you said I was being untrue and slanderous. It is just that you misunderstood me." Okay, Phil, so you can stop venting now! ;-)) The issue is over. Metta, James #81309 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:22 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Scott, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Scott Duncan" wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thanks for the reply: > > James: "I'm a little confused about this comment. If you read and > listen to K. Sujin then she is your teacher. Unless you read and > listen to her and disagree with what she writes and states." > > Scott: No, I don't consider her to be my teacher simply because I read > what she writes or listen to talks. I consider the Dhamma to be the > Teacher. I still don't get you. I guess you are defining "teacher" in some way other than myself. If you read or listen to her, appreciate what she communicates, learn from what she communicates, and form your own ideas based on what she communicates, then she is your teacher (even if you 'consider' her to be or not). Metta, James #81310 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:23 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > >. > Selling books and tapes at the foundation also encourages donations. > But, again, nothing wrong with that. ++++++++++ Dear James All books at the foundation are given away for free. Robert #81311 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:32 pm Subject: 1.Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "shennieca" wrote: > > Hello Nina, > > Can you please explain what is meant by "Reading a sutta > and 'meditate' about it is bhaavanaa" ? Did our Buddha say that it's > possible to do so? Which sutta is it? > > With mettaa, > Elaine Dear Elaine The Vimana vatthu atthakatha: "Chattamanavakavimanavannana" )p365 PTS This relates the story of a man who merely took refuge in the Buddha and the five precepts and was killed that same day. He was reborn in the deva world . As a deva he comes and relates: "behold how through few teachings I have gone to the happy destiny and reached happiness..Those who continually hear Dhamma from you, these methinks, touch the deathless (nibbana) the peace." Robert #81312 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:35 pm Subject: 2.Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "shennieca" wrote: > > Hello Nina, > > Can you please explain what is meant by "Reading a sutta > and 'meditate' about it is bhaavanaa" ? Did our Buddha say that it's > possible to do so? Which sutta is it? > > With mettaa, > Elaine Dear Elaine, Commentary to samyutta Nikaya (note 313 ) page 809 Bodhi "for when learning declines the practice declines, and when the practice declines achievement declines. But when learning becomes full, persons rich in learning fill up the practice, and those filling up the practice fill up achievement. Thus when learning etc are increasing my Dispensation increases just like the full moon." Robert #81313 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:36 pm Subject: 3. Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "shennieca" wrote: > > Hello Nina, > > Can you please explain what is meant by "Reading a sutta > and 'meditate' about it is bhaavanaa" ? Did our Buddha say that it's > possible to do so? Which sutta is it? > > With mettaa, > Elaine > Dear Elaine Sangitti sutta " The vimuttayatanam The 5 bases of deliverance: XXV. "Five bases of Deliverance; here a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established [he attains nibban]; b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... or ++++>>>>d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders over it and concentrates his attention on it; <<<<<<<<++++ or e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight, and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established."" Robert #81314 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:38 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "shennieca" wrote: > > Hello Nina, > > Can you please explain what is meant by "Reading a sutta > and 'meditate' about it is bhaavanaa" ? Did our Buddha say that it's > possible to do so? Which sutta is it? > > With mettaa, > Elaine > Dear Elaine The uninstructed worldling knows something of the characteristics of dhammas, he knows when he craves or feels angry. He can experience all types of subtle vibrations and hardness and coldness etc. If he trains himself by yoga etc. he can know that these are changing and many other things. But he conceives them wrongly as being me or mine etc.. The enligthened one experiences all these same dhammas but with the eye of wisdom. The "uninstructed worldling" (p40 of Mulapariyaya) "needs to be taught, because he possesses neither learning(agama) nor achievement. For he who possesses neither the learning running counter to the activity of conceiving because he has neglected to study, question, and discriminate the aggregates (khandhas), elements, sense bases (ayatanas) truths, law of conditionality and foundations of mindfulness etc , nor spiritual achievement because he has failed to achieve what should be achived by practice is said to be 'uninstructed' . Between the enlightened ones and the 'uninstructed worldling' there is the "good worldling" who is learning and developing correctly: p41 "The Buddha, the kinsman of the sun, speaks of the worldling in a twofold way. One is the worldling blinded by darkness and the other is the worldling noble and good" Robert #81315 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of the Purification of View V.2 lbidd2 Hi Nina, Thanks for your comments. Nina: "I see it that also when someone has attained jhana and emerges from it, he should be mindful of nama and rupa. He should develop insight of whatever appears. All stages of insight." Larry: I've been wondering about this. It certainly makes sense on a practical level. However, The Visuddhimagga has a very specific program. The insight based on jhana factors is comparatively modest.For example, akusala cittas are not an object. And one is to begin with nama and then go on to concretely produced rupa. In a way this insight is orchestrated. It has a pattern. However, nothing is settled. I'm open to any ideas. Larry #81316 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:17 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) hantun1 Dear Phil (Nina, Connie, Sarah and All), Phil: In light of khanti not being a cetasika, can it still be called a dhamma? Or can an aspect of a different cetasika (virya) still be called a dhamma? I would guesss not. Not to nitpick, just to clarify definition of dhamma. Han: By your question, I assume that you take only cetasika as dhamma. What else do you consider as dhamma? For me, I cannot give a satisfactory definition of dhamma. Once a Burmese Sayadaw was asked, “What is dhamma?” He replied, “dhamma is dhamma.” Respectfully, Han #81317 From: "Alex" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:26 pm Subject: 1.Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 truth_aerator Dear RobertK, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "shennieca" > wrote: > > > > Hello Nina, > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by "Reading a sutta > > and 'meditate' about it is bhaavanaa" ? Did our Buddha say that > it's > > possible to do so? Which sutta is it? > > > > With mettaa, > > Elaine > Dear Elaine > > The Vimana vatthu atthakatha: "Chattamanavakavimanavannana" )p365 > PTS This relates the story of a man who merely took refuge in the > Buddha and the five precepts and was killed that same day. He was > reborn in the deva world . As a deva he comes and relates: > > > "behold how through few teachings I have gone to the happy destiny > and reached happiness..Those who continually hear Dhamma from you, > these methinks, touch the deathless (nibbana) the peace." > > Robert > Regarding those people who achieved ariyahood through listening: They may have meditated A LOT before they have heard the Buddha's discource and their TRAINED THEIR MIND with PROPER INSTRUCTION helped them to achieve either good rebirth or Ariyahood. Also in many stories where a person went from a pujjhana to stream through listening to the Buddha, we see that they went into a Jhana (perhaps up to 4th one) for atleast one second either during or after the discource. ------ Then the Blessed One gave the householder Upali the gradual Teaching starting with giving gifts, becoming virtuous, about the heavenly states, the dangers of sensuality, the vileness of defiling things, and benefits of giving up. Then the Blessed One knew that *key point* the mind of the householder Upali was ready, malleable, free of hindrances, lofty and pleased *key point* and the Blessed One gave the special message of the Enlightened Ones: Unpleasantness, its arising, its cessation and the path to the cessation of unpleasantness. Like a pure, clean cloth would take a dye evenly. In that same manner, the dustless, stainless eye of the Teaching arose to the householder Upali, seated there itself. Whatever rises has the nature of ceasing. The householder Upaali, then and there mastered that Teaching, knew and penetrated it. Doubts dispelled become self confident attained that state where he did not want a teacher, any more, in the Dispensation of the Blessed One (* 1). He said. `Venerable sir, we will go now, there is much work to be done.' `Househoder, do as you think it fit.' http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/056-upali-e1.htm &mn91 Yes it is quite possible for one to achieve Ariyahood through reading the authentic discources of the Buddha. Many people achieved stream through listening (and wise attention). However, one absolutely must attain a "ready, malleable, free of hindrances, lofty and pleased " mind. Meditation helps one to train the mind to be like that. Lots of Metta, Alex #81318 From: LBIDD@... Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:43 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,232 lbidd2 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga), Ch. XVII 232. 'In the mind door in the same way': the contact called conascent mind-contact is also a condition in the same eight ways for sense-sphere resultant feeling occurring as registration in the mind door, and so also for the kinds of resultant feeling in the three planes occurring with rebirth-linking, life-continuum and death. But the mind-contact associated with mind-door adverting is a condition in one way only, as decisive-support condition, for the kinds of feeling that occur in the mind door as registration in the sense sphere. This is the detailed explanation of the clause 'With contact as condition, feeling'. ********************** 232. manodvaarepi so tathaati manodvaarepi hi tadaaramma.navasena pavattaana.m kaamaavacaravipaakavedanaana.m so sahajaatamanosamphassasa"nkhaato phasso tatheva a.t.thadhaa paccayo hoti, pa.tisandhibhava"ngacutivasena pavattaana.m tebhuumakavipaakavedanaanampi. yaa pana taa manodvaare tadaaramma.navasena pavattaa kaamaavacaravedanaa, taasa.m manodvaaraavajjanasampayutto manosamphasso upanissayavasena ekadhaava paccayo hotiiti. aya.m phassapaccayaa vedanaati padasmi.m vitthaarakathaa. #81319 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:57 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (74) philofillet Hi Han > Phil: In light of khanti not being a cetasika, can it > still be called a dhamma? Or can an aspect of a > different cetasika (virya) still be called a dhamma? I > would guesss not. Not to nitpick, just to clarify > definition of dhamma. > > Han: By your question, I assume that you take only > cetasika as dhamma. What else do you consider as > dhamma? For me, I cannot give a satisfactory > definition of dhamma. Once a Burmese Sayadaw was > asked, "What is dhamma??EHe replied, "dhamma is > dhamma.?E> > Respectfully, > Han I guess I was thinking more in terms of Abhidhamma, dhammas as defined, for example, in A. Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. I hope to learn more about Abhidhamma (or re-learn the small bit I had understood before I started neglecting my studies.) And dhammas in Abhidhamma are defined as citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana, right? And within the cetasika category, there are x number of sobhanna cetasikas, and since kirya is not listed in there it is not technically speaking a sobhanna dhamma, and in this sense that introduction to the chapter would be incorrect - again, technically speaking. Metta, Phil #81320 From: "Phil" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:59 pm Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (74) philofillet Hi again Correction - "That sentence in that introduction to the chapter would be incorrect..." >and in this sense that > introduction to the chapter would be incorrect - again, technically > speaking. Metta, Phil #81321 From: "shennieca" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 shennieca Dear Robert, Thank you for the Sutta quotes. Imho, no matter how many books you read, it won't make you enlightened, you'll only get book knowledge but not wisdom. It is by reading your 'heart', that you'll know greed, hatred and delusions (and its cessations). Good luck on your Buddhist studies. ;-)) Regards, Elaine #81322 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:35 pm Subject: 1.Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 rjkjp1 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > Yes it is quite possible for one to achieve Ariyahood through reading > the authentic discources of the Buddha. Many people achieved stream > through listening (and wise attention). However, one absolutely must > attain a "ready, malleable, free of hindrances, lofty and pleased " > mind. Meditation helps one to train the mind to be like that. > > _____ Dear Alex Contemplating the teachings can make the mind "malleble...lofty and pleased": James cited this sutta soem time back: "There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five? "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. One's mind grows serene. "These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an...5.202.than.html Robert #81323 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:16 pm Subject: Vism.XVII,232 nichiconn Path of Purification, p.681 "At the mind-door also it is the same" means, of the feelings which are results of the world of sense, proceeding by way of registration also at the mind-door, that contact which is termed contact of co-existent mind is cause in the same eight ways: also of the feelings which are results of the three planes {read tebhuumika* for eta bhuumika*} proceeding by way of rebirth, life-continuum and decease. But of those feelings of the realm of sense which have proceeded by way of registration at the mind-door, mind-contact which is associated with mind-door-adverting is a single cause by way of sufficing condition. This is the detailed discourse on the clause "Conditioned by contact, feeling arises." #81324 From: han tun Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:27 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) hantun1 Dear Phil, If you take dhamma in terms of Paramattha Dhamma only, as in A. Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, you are probably right. But “dhamma” means much more than that (even in the context of Abhidhamma). Let us see what Nyanatiloka has to say: Quote: [dhamma: lit. the 'bearer', constitution (or nature of a thing), norm, law (jus), doctrine; justice, righteousness; quality; thing, object of mind (s. aayatana) 'phenomenon'. In all these meanings the word 'dhamma' is to be met with in the texts. The Com. to D. instances 4 applications of this term guna (quality, virtue), desanaa (instruction), pariyatti (text), nijjiivataa (soullessness, e.g. "all dhammaa, phenomena, are impersonal," etc.). The Com. to Dhs. has hetu (condition) instead of desanaa. Thus, the analytical knowledge of the law (s. patisambhidaa) is explained in Vis.M. XIV. and in Vibh. as hetumhi-~naana, knowledge of the conditions. The Dhamma, as the liberating law discovered and proclaimed by the Buddha, is summed up in the 4 Noble Truths (s. sacca). It forms one of the 3 Gems (ti-ratana) and one of the 10 recollections (anussati). Dhamma, as object of mind (dhammaayatana, s. aayatana) may be anything past, present or future, corporeal or mental, conditioned or not (cf. sankhaara, 4), real or imaginary.] End Quote. In PTS Pali-English Dictionary it is much, much more than one could imagine. I can only give you the following link to click on: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.1:1:2654.pali Therefore, dear Phil, I do not try to define the word “dhamma” in isolation. I only interpret it in the context it is used. Respectfully, Han #81325 From: "rjkjp1" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) rjkjp1 Dear Phil and Han Here is an essay by Nina about the meaning of dhamma http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php? s=c752d296a44e5ede4186ad5491f42cdf&showtopic=169 Robert #81326 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:45 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) sarahprocter... Hi Phil & Han, --- Phil wrote: > I guess I was thinking more in terms of Abhidhamma, dhammas as > defined, for example, in A. Sujin's Survey of Paramattha Dhammas. I > hope to learn more about Abhidhamma (or re-learn the small bit I had > understood before I started neglecting my studies.) > > > And dhammas in Abhidhamma are defined as citta, cetasika, rupa and > nibbana, right? .... S: Yes, but 'dhamma' does have different meanings in different contexts. A 'deep' topic! See: 'Dhamma1 –meanings' in "Useful Posts" for much, much more on this:-). Metta, Sarah ====== #81327 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? sarahprocter... Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > When I wrote that K. > Sujin accepts and encourages cash donations, I did not mean that she > does so for herself. ... S: You've clarified all the misunderstandings. I have a proposal: why not come and join us with our sure-to-be-lively discussions in February or April and at the same time, test out for yourself whether K.Sujin or any of her friends/students as much as hints that you should make a donation of even 1 Baht. What you'll always find is that she and her friends/students are extremely generous and that the 'contribution' that is most appreciated of all is your keen interest in Dhamma, no matter how much you agree with/disagree with or question what they say. That's it - no strings attached! Metta, Sarah ========= #81328 From: "shennieca" Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:24 pm Subject: 1.Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 shennieca Dear Robert, I'm not saying that you don't need to read Dhamma books. You have to read the Suttas to know what the Buddha said. But in the Suttas, I'm quite sure the Buddha advised us to 'watch' our body and mind and see the impermanence that's inherent in it, with insight. Hearing the Dhamma and getting immediate enlightenment is real, I don't doubt it because it happened to Ven. Sariputta. It is possible because Ven. Sariputta has collected lots of merits in his past lives and was able to get that 'instant enlightenment'. Even today, there are people who wish for instant enlightenment. For e.g. there are Buddhists who make a vow whenever they do good deeds, they vow to meet Maitreya Buddha so that when they meet him in the future and hear a Dhamma talk from the Buddha himself, they'll become enlightened immediately. But imo, this kind of wait is unnecessary, but that's just my opinion. But whatever a person believes in, is (as you say) uncontrollable. I believe in the benefits of meditation, I cannot control it. It is not the self-demon-filled-with-lobha who wants to meditate, it is the conditions that were right for meditation to occur and self has got nothing to do with it because there is No-self. I wish you all the best in your Dhamma studies. With mettaa, Elaine May all beings be well and happy. May all beings be free from physical and mental sufferings. #81329 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:47 pm Subject: Discussions with Owen - 3 sarahprocter... Dear Nina, (James & all), You asked me to let you know about further discussions with my young friend, Owen, aka 'Naughty Boy'! On Tuesday morning, Jon arrived back from Fiji via New Zealand (28 hrs of travel-time) and wished to visit Big Wave Bay and dive into the (cold brrr) waves as usual. We got the school-bus home that day, but I indicated to Owen that I was sitting with Jon. After all, he'd just got back from his trip. Yesterday, we took the bus home again and this time, when Owen implored me to sit next to him this time, I was happy to do so. Straight away he asked to listen to my i-pod, so we huddled up together to share the ear-plugs. After a couple of seconds, Owen asked if it was in India. Now I hadn't mentioned India and the tape didn't either. (Actually, it was a section from a Bangkok recording). I asked him why he asked this and he started to tell me about Rama and Siva. He'd heard about them from his teacher! We continued to listen. K.Sujin was talking about bhumis. Owen was repeating the words he heard and when he got to a new one, such as 'bhumi' he'd ask me the meaning. [Remember, this is a 5 year-old, Chinese boy who comes from a family that doesn't speak any English and he's never studied English - just picked up his knowledge from speaking to people like us on the school-bus!] I explained that bhumis refer to different worlds and that there was the 'people world', the 'animal world','ghost worlds', the 'god worlds' and so on. We then discussed the different foods in different worlds and how we might end up in an animal world or a god world. He could give me all sorts of examples of cruel acts to animals which might bring bad results and we also discussed different kind acts to animals. Back to the tape. There was a discussion on it about how not everyone has a chance to listen to the Dhamma. This needed explanation for Owen. What is the Dhamma, he wondered and why can't everyone hear it? I explained that the Dhamma was the teaching of the Buddha and as we'd discussed last time, it referred to our lives now - seeing, hearing, kind and cruel acts and so on. I suggested that animals couldn't hear it, but he challenged me on this! He explained to me that different animals make different kinds of sounds and can still communicate in their own ways. We then went through some of his repertoire of animal sounds. And by the way, he asked, didn't the Dhamma have any animal stories? Yes, lots! Another time, I said:-). He also wished for definitions of satipatthana and the vipassana nanas. This is very great understanding, I said. Then he heard a reference to 'past', as in 'what is past is gone'. He wanted more explanation and so I explained that all the fun he'd had at school yesterday was over. He could think about it now, but the thinking about it was different from the fun itself. He seemed to really consider this for a moment and then said 'Oh, yes'. What else (in this 30 minute 'brain-washing session', James!)? Betty was asking K.Sujin whether her nieces and nephews and great nieces and nephews had any interest in the Dhamma. 'Not yet' was the answer and Betty was saying that this showed that having access to the Dhamma wasn't the only condition for one's interest. Owen and I then discussed how his friends at school have different interests. Some are interested in animals (like him), some in cars, some in the beach activities (Owen has no interest in the beach or sea), some in having discussions as we were, some in sleeping and so on. Then it was time for Jon and I to get out. Would I be coming the next day, he asked. No, on Saturday, I replied, but he couldn't quite work out when Saturday was. Eventually, as we were getting out, he 'got' Saturday (with a little Chinese help from me). But, oh, there was no school on Saturday, he lamented.....:-)) Metta, Sarah ======== #81330 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:36 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 kenhowardau Dear Venerable Pannabahulo (and Phil), ---------- Ven P: > There are IMHO clearly two contradictory and opposing views on this topic. On the one hand there is the DSG consensus view that any kind of `formal meditation practice' is a complete waste of time unless there has been a vast amount of pariyatti preceding it which has led to the development of wisdom and insight. > ---------- As I understand the no-control perspective, formal meditation is *never* relevant to the 8fold path - not even after there has been a vast amount of pariyatti. I think this applies, not only to vipassana, but also to mundane jhana. Textual references to "going to a quiet place" and "sitting with legs crossed and back straight" etc., might seem suggest formal samatha practices, but I don't believe they really point to that at all. The development of jhana requires the kind of panna that knows kusala from akusala. Very few people know the difference between kusala and akusala. Even the broad principles are not widely agreed upon. For example, some people say that killing can be kusala when it is done "for the right reasons." Some people say that lust and fierce devotion can be kusala "in certain circumstances." Others deny there can be any extenuating circumstances. How much harder is it to know the finer differences (between mild akusala and genuine kusala)? And yet such knowledge is, I believe, a prerequisite for a beginner in jhana development. Phil, among others, believes that the Visudhimagga teaches formal samatha practices for beginners. As I see it, anyone who regards himself as a "beginner" in the practice of jhana must already be able to distinguish kusala from akusala. Only then do 'quiet places' 'sitting postures' and 'meditation objects' take on any relevance. Even then, those things would not be sought with akusala intent. They would not be sought with the idea of gaining something for oneself, or through dissatisfaction with the way things are. Such akusala motives would only hinder jhana, and they would have no appeal to a genuine jhana beginner. Therefore, I would deny that even jhana meditators practiced formal meditation. For them, going to a quiet place and sitting straight backed with unwavering attention on a single conceptual object would not be ritual acts performed with in the belief that they will bring about jhana absorption. I think those are activities that naturally appeal to people who (1) know kusala from akusala and (2) have accumulated tendencies for jhana. --------------------- Ven P: Further, that there are necessary accumulations that must be present in order for this to happen. Then there is the opposing view that patipatti must come first and that wisdom will result from this. This view was expressed by the late Ven Ajan Chah and summed up in the quote I included in a previous e-mail. However, that view is very strongly put forward by the late Ven Ajan Buddhadassa. In `Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree' (Wisdom Publications edition) he said: "In Buddhism, the essential meaning of the word "study" is the unceasing, dedicated observation and investigation of whatever arises in the mind, be it pleasant or unpleasant. Only those familiar with the observation of mind can really understand Dhamma. Those who merely read books cannot understand and, what's more, may even go astray. But those who try to observe the things going on in the mind, and always take that which is true in their minds as their standard, never get muddled. They are able to comprehend dukkha and ultimately will understand Dhamma. Then, they will understand the books they read." ------------------- Many people benefit from sitting quietly and watching thoughts go by. It can be a useful therapy for troubled minds, and it is practised by people of all faiths and philosophies. Not knowing any better, most people would assume that the Buddha's path must have involved the same kind of thing. But that would be a big mistake. The Middle Way is discovered and taught only once in every vast number of aeons - it is not an ordinary, commonplace kind of thing. -------------------------------- Ven P: > Of course accumulations are necessary for the practice of meditation. Most people cannot meditate at all. And there is no doubt in my mind that most of the wisdom I have accumulated as a meditator has been the result of patipatti. Meditation is very difficult. I remember a time, nearly twenty years ago, when my teacher the Ven Ajan Tong had to give me a kick up the backside to get me out of my books and back into practice. It was so much easier to study than to practice. Those days are gone now as my power of memory gets weaker. Practice is also difficult as I (in the conventional sense) carry so many defilements that reading the articles on the BBC's news website pale into insignificance. I see formal practice much as Sayadaw U Tejaniya views formal retreats i.e.it's like going to school, but we don't stay in school all our lives. The Buddha taught a middle path between extremes. I propose that a middle path between the two extreme views outlined above is to sit for a certain set period for formal practice each day and then make time for formal study. ---------------- But, as you know, the middle path is magga citta. It is a momentary consciousness that takes a present paramattha dhamma as its object (nibbana in the case of the supramundane path and a conditioned dhamma in the case of the mundane path). This path (this moment of consciousness) has no concepts in it. There are no people, no postures, no books and no things to do. So it is not like any other path. It is not like sitting in meditation and it is not like reading a book. Therefore, it cannot be a combination of those two things. ------------------ Ven P: > The practice of meditation can be seen as a way of centering ourselves and developing mindfulness and thus concentration. By doing that, the observation of mind throughout our daily lives would be made easier. ------------------- As I see it, the practice you are describing is a conventional reality. It is not magga citta. ----------------------------- Ven P: > Not for nothing did the Lord Buddha claim, "The life of the householder is crowded and dusty, but the way of the monk is wide open" (MN) ----------------------------- No, but this is the same Buddha who taught that the world (the loka) was ultimately the presently arisen, momentary namas and rupas. Therefore, we need to look closely at any of his conventionally worded proclamations that might seem (at first glance) to contradict this profound truth. ------------------ Ven P: > Most of you are lay people – householders – who have to deal with so many problems and the frantic rush of modern life. If I – as a monk - feel a need for formal practice so as to develop mindfulness, how much more so for those of you who are city dwellers with families and other responsibilities? ------------------ In my opinion not all monks feel this need. Also, I believe in former times - when the ancient commentaries were well known and the Abhidhamma was widely understood - the *vast majority of Buddhists* did not feel the need for formal practice. ----------------------------- Ven P: > I am offering the consideration of a middle path here; I look forward to any replies or comments. Please let me say now that I will appreciate your remarks and will be grateful to receive them. I say "Than you" now to save clogging up the site with further "Thank you"letters. ------------------------------ Understood, no reply is necessary. Thank you for the opportunity to express my understanding of this important subject. I hope I have not seemed disrespectful in any way. With respect, Ken H #81331 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:49 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 nilovg Dear Ealaine, Op 17-jan-2008, om 22:06 heeft shennieca het volgende geschreven: > Can you please explain what is meant by "Reading a sutta > and 'meditate' about it is bhaavanaa" ? Did our Buddha say that it's > possible to do so? Which sutta is it? ------- N: Rob K gave you many quotes. One of the Recollections mentioned in the Visuddhimagga is Recollection of the Dhamma, Ch VII, 68-89. well worth reading. Dhamma includes not only supramundane Dhamma but also Dhamma of the scriptures. § 71: We read in § 88: This covers also your other questions and Rob K's answers. Nina. #81332 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:08 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Discussions with Owen - 3 nilovg Dear Sarah, I am delighted to hear again about Owen. Do tell him that I appreciate his interest very much. For me his interest proves that having listened in former lives is an important condition for interest in the Dhamma today. Nina. Op 18-jan-2008, om 7:47 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven: > We continued to listen. K.Sujin was talking about bhumis. Owen was > repeating the words he heard and when he got to a new one, such as > 'bhumi' > he'd ask me the meaning. [Remember, this is a 5 year-old, Chinese > boy who > comes from a family that doesn't speak any English and he's never > studied > English - just picked up his knowledge from speaking to people like > us on > the school-bus!] I explained that bhumis refer to different worlds and > that there was the 'people world', the 'animal world','ghost > worlds', the > 'god worlds' and so on. #81333 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:11 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) philofillet Hi Robert, Han, Sarah and all I do want to look into the various meanings of dhamma. But before I do, let me clarify one point. The text in question referred to a "sobhanna(sp?) dhamma." - does sobhanna not narrow the definition of dhamma to the sense of one of the limited number of paramattha dhammas? Can sobhanna be used in a more general sense or is it only used when defining paramattha dhammas? Thanks. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Phil and Han > Here is an essay by Nina about the meaning of dhamma > > http://www.abhidhamma.org/forums/index.php? > s=c752d296a44e5ede4186ad5491f42cdf&showtopic=169 > Robert > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun wrote: > > > > Dear Phil, > > > > If you take dhamma in terms of Paramattha Dhamma only, > > > #81334 From: "Sukinder" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:17 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 sukinderpal Dear Ven. Pannabahulo, Others have responded and I have yet to read any one of them, but there seem to be a misunderstanding here which I feel the need to clarify. But I'll also take the opportunity to comment some more. You asked for it. ;-) ============== Ven P: There are IMHO clearly two contradictory and opposing views on this topic. On the one hand there is the DSG consensus view that any kind of `formal meditation practice' is a complete waste of time unless there has been a vast amount of pariyatti preceding it which has led to the development of wisdom and insight. Further, that there are necessary accumulations that must be present in order for this to happen. Sukin: I am not sure what all you have in mind, but I think we should first make clear what is meant by `meditation' here, namely do we mean the development of samatha or vipassana or both. Roughly, samatha is the development of kusala some of which can lead to Jhana. This however involves a very highly developed understanding of the distinction between kusala and akusala states, particularly of `attachment' conditioned by sense contacts. This means that one who hopes to achieve Jhana must be extremely sensitive to the limitations of the household life enough to seek solitude / becoming a recluse. This kind of understanding does require at some point to make a decision to sit in a proper meditation posture, concentrate on an object and away from the possibility of disturbances, inside and outside. However this does not require a Buddha to come upon and appreciate. And though the understanding is high involving much prior development, this has nothing to do with the *different* kind of understanding which the Buddha arrived at as a result of his enlightenment. This latter understanding is not aimed at `rising above' sense contacts. It does not seek to overcome sensual desire, but realizing the danger of ignorance and that all other practices leads only to suppression of defilements, it aims to knowing dhammas as they are. Here kusala, akusala, rupas, all becomes necessary to understand. Sure kusala is preferable to akusala; however this is not sought after without any regard to the fact of them being conditioned, anicca, dukkha and anatta. The danger seen is not just of attachment and aversion, but more importantly, ignorance. With this comes the recognition of "self view" as being particularly bad. Something which would never have occurred to us was it not for the Buddha's teachings. This is in fact mingled with all the efforts ever done by the most `holy' of men outside of the sasana and is sadly what most Buddhists today fail to see the danger of. Conditioned by this very dhamma, they aim at results and undertake practices which only serve to reinforce the same. Yes the Buddha did teach a `practice' i.e. satipatthana, but this, in line with everything else he pointed to as being Dhamma / dhammas, is reference to a conditioned reality. And as all other dhammas, is not within control of `will'. And as say, lobha and dosa, it arises unrelated to any time, place and posture and in fact does so before we can even `think' anything about it. Besides, "ignorance" is ignorance of dhammas and not stories and situations; hence wisdom is about coming to know these same dhammas. To be thinking in terms of better time and place therefore only serves to reinforce that ignorance and makes it harder for the real practice to ever arise. Here or there, all dhammas are equally conditioned and fleeting, and this applies to sati and panna which may arise to gradually `study' them. However because we are so used to perceiving phenomena in terms of self, people and situations, hence "lasting", we come to thinking about mindfulness and "knowing" in the same way. And not only we see nothing wrong with the kind of observation / noting, having associated this with `practice', we cannot help wanting to promote it. It is hard having to question our present practice, after all the process more often than not involves mistaking lobha for sati and this accumulates and grows stronger. Moreover, what seems like wisdom if in fact is miccha ditthi, this feels absolutely right! Actually neither samatha / jhana nor vipassana can come about simply by trying to act on the idea / doing it. The former as stated above, too requires much positive background. And even when they have gone quite far in the particular direction, when it however comes to Dhamma, must start from the beginning just as those who are dry insight workers. They too would have had to develop satipatthana in daily life in the past, NATURALLY, before they could finally insight the jhana factors. `Naturally', this idea is very important to realize. It implies recognizing `self view' and all the ideas about `doings' originating from this. So Ven. Pannabahulo, this is not about one day the wisdom growing enough to be ready for `formal meditation'. Formal meditation is never seen as being part of the Path at all, but an `idea' about practice which is result of a wrong reading of the Dhamma. So it is not about study vs. practice, but rather `right' and `wrong' practice originating from different understanding of the Buddha's teachings. ==================== Ven P: However, that view is very strongly put forward by the late Ven Ajan Buddhadassa. In `Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree' (Wisdom Publications edition) he said: "In Buddhism, the essential meaning of the word "study" is the unceasing, dedicated observation and investigation of whatever arises in the mind, be it pleasant or unpleasant. Only those familiar with the observation of mind can really understand Dhamma. Those who merely read books cannot understand and, what's more, may even go astray. But those who try to observe the things going on in the mind, and always take that which is true in their minds as their standard, never get muddled. They are able to comprehend dukkha and ultimately will understand Dhamma. Then, they will understand the books they read." Sukin: Perhaps more explanation is given before and after this passage? Anyway, I'm reminded about similar statements made everywhere by others, Buddhist and non-Buddhists. So please allow me to comment some based on the above passage. There are people who read with wrong understanding and there are those who read with right understanding. Neither will however think reading to be of greater value than `practice'. If anything however has been learnt by the student of Dhamma through observing the nature of mind, it would be that whatever one does, is *conditioned*! What needs to be considered then, is what "view" has arisen to condition the activity, be it reading or sitting down to meditate. To instead point to the `activity' is reflection of failure to consider the citta and a wrong understanding of what Pariyatti is and what Patipatti. Many on this list try to make a case based on this kind of understanding and end up not saying anything substantial about Dhamma, but more a justification for a preferred activity. ================ Ven P: The Buddha taught a middle path between extremes. I propose that a middle path between the two extreme views outlined above is to sit for a certain set period for formal practice each day and then make time for formal study. The practice of meditation can be seen as a way of centering ourselves and developing mindfulness and thus concentration. By doing that, the observation of mind throughout our daily lives would be made easier. Not for nothing did the Lord Buddha claim, "The life of the householder is crowded and dusty, but the way of the monk is wide open" (MN) Sukin: I think we need to constantly remind ourselves of how little we know; that we are beginners and need to hear the basics again and again. We need to feel ourselves towards the Middle Way and not try to think / conceptualize about it too much. We come from wrong view, i.e. either side of the Middle Way, therefore whatever duality that we create to then project a middle path for, this will likely in fact serve to fortify the particular wrong view from which we come. One thing I know for sure, there is only ONE right way and this is to know the present moment reality as it is. This is the N8FP. So it is never a matter of compromise / finding a mean between two ideas. If these particular ideas take one away from the understanding that there are just these dhammas to be known, then this is like not what the Path is about. The practice is about knowing better and better, the realities arising now, starting with Pariyatti and here there is not `I' who does anything. Thus thinking in terms of being in certain situations does not help in this regard. A householder is one by conditions, so too is a monk. The object of study for both however, is the present moment dhammas. You probably got more than you asked for Venerable. By being so elaborate I'm trying to increase the probabilities that perhaps a little will be useful. ;-) With respect, Sukin #81335 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of the Purification of View V.2 kelvin_lwin Hi Larry, > Nina: "I see it that also when someone has attained jhana and emerges > from it, he should be mindful of nama and rupa. He should develop > insight of whatever appears. All stages of insight." > > Larry: I've been wondering about this. It certainly makes sense on a > practical level. However, The Visuddhimagga has a very specific program. > The insight based on jhana factors is comparatively modest.For example, > akusala cittas are not an object. And one is to begin with nama and then > go on to concretely produced rupa. In a way this insight is > orchestrated. It has a pattern. > > However, nothing is settled. I'm open to any ideas. It seems clear if you read ahead that samatha section is only concerned about 5 rupa and 3 lower arupa jhana consciousness and associated factors thus its defined in 'brief'. Vipassana section specificaly mention 81 mudane consciousness and thus its defined in 'detail'. - Kel #81336 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:02 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness sarahprocter... Hi Phil & all, I'm interested to explore your phrase of the month,"attabhavapatilabho", with you. You've referred to it a few times, as in recently: --- Phil wrote: > All > those suttas getting at "the all" in very paramattha terms. On the > other hand, as I posted recently, coming across the > term "attabhavapatilabho", meaning "individual form of existence" > did give me pause to consider whether "no phil" could be said to be > true - in this lifetime, there is an "individual form of existence" > and that *is* "phil." Anyways, interesting to keep reflecting on. ..... S: As you've mentioned, it is referred to in SN 19:1: "That being, bhikkhus, used to be a cattle butcher in this same Raajagaha. Having been tormented in hell for many years, for many hundred s of years, for many thousands of years, for many hundreds of thousands of years as a result of that kamma, as a residual result of that same kamma he is experiencing such a form [S: a ghost in the form of a skeleton] of individual existence (attabhaavapa.tilaabho)." The same phrase was used in the preceding paragraph and B.Bodhi gave a note on it which you referred to: BB: "The expression 'attabhaapa.tilaabho', which literally means "acquisition of selfhood," is used idiomatically to denote a concrete form of individual identity..." S: In absolute terms, there is no Phil, no wife and no skeleton ghost. However, with or without understanding we refer conventionally to the accumulations and various combination of khandhas as 'Phil' or the 'skeleton ghost' or the particular 'individual existence' in that life. I've referred to a note on the same phrase in another sutta which you may be interested to look at. (The following is extracted from my earlier posts , #18926 and #31885). >S:In the Thera Sutta (SN 21:10 'A Bhikkhu Named Elder in the B.Bodhi transl.), it seems a number of bhikkhus thought it was strange for Thera to live alone, go for alms alone, return alone, sit and walk alone and so they raised the issue with the Buddha. The Buddha summoned Thera who confirmed he lived and followed all these activities alone and also praised living alone. The Buddha doesn’t disagree, but said : "That is a way of dwelling alone, Elder, I do not deny this. But as to how dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail, listen to that and attend closely, I will speak." "Yes, venerable sir." "And how, Elder, is dwelling alone fulfilled in detail? Here, Elder, what lies in the past has been abandoned, what lies in the future has been relinquished, and desire and lust for present forms of individual existence has been thoroughly removed.* It is in such a way, Elder, that dwelling alone is fulfilled in detail." This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this: "The wise one, all-conqueror, all-knower, Among all things unsullied, with all cast off, Liberated in the destruction of craving: I call that person ‘one who dwells alone.’ "** ..... Footnotes to Thera Sutta (B.Bodhi trans): *Commentary "(Spk): "The past is said to be abandoned (pahina.m) by the abandoning of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the past; the future is relinquished (pa.tinissa.t.tha.m) by the relinquishig of desire and lust for the five aggregates of the future. **"(Spk): ‘All-conqueror’(sbbaabhibhu.m): one who abides having overcome all aggregates, sense bases, and elements, and the three kinds of existence. ‘Unsullied’(anupalitta.m, or "unstuck") among hose very things by the paste (lepa) of craving and views. "Liberated in the destruction of craving (ta.nhakkhaye vimutta.m): liberated in Nibbana, called the destruction of craving by way of the liberation that takes this as its object." ***** S: So there are the two meanings of 'living alone'.For some by inclination or natural tendency (pakati) they will live alone in the first sense like Thera. However, we all have to learn to live alone without 'desire and lust' regardless of whether we're in the forest or the village, alone or with others. From ~Naa,nananda’s comments (‘Ideal Solitude’, Wheel 188): "Idha Thera ya.m atiita.m pahiia.m what is past is abandoned ya.m anaagata.m pa.tinissata.m The future is relinquished Paccupannesa ca ***attabhaavapa.tilaabhesu*** chandaraago suppa.tiviniito And the desire and lust for the present modes of personality is well under control Eva.m kho Thera ekavihaaro vitthaarena paripu.n.no hoti It is thus, Elder, that (the ideal of) lone-dwelling becomes fulfilled,in all its details. Naa.nananda adds: “We saw above how the Theranamo Sutta expounds the true ideal of solitude (ekaviharo) as against the popular and commonplace concept of solitude. The true ideal is depicted as a ‘solitude’ of mind, gained by giving up everything belonging to the past and the future and by disciplining well the desire and lust for one’s present modes of personality."< **** S: In brief, I see the phrase 'attabhaavapa.tilaabhesu' as being a conventional reference to 'personality' or 'present form', i.e the 5 khandhas. May we all learn this true solitude or lone-dwelling. Thanks for helping me to consider these phrases further. I hope this is of some interest. Comments welcome, just if you care to! Metta, Sarah ======= #81337 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) sarahprocter... Hi Phil, I just quickly saw your note as I was about to send another reply, so hadn't read all the discussion. --- Phil wrote: >The text in question referred to > a "sobhanna(sp?) dhamma." - does sobhanna not narrow the definition > of dhamma to the sense of one of the limited number of paramattha > dhammas? Can sobhanna be used in a more general sense or is it only > used when defining paramattha dhammas? ... S: You're right, sobhana(beautiful, pure)dhammas, refer to cittas and cetasikas (i.e. paramattha dhammas only). All kusala cittas are accompanied by sobhana cetasikas, but so are the kiriya cittas of the arahant. Also, vipaka cittas accompanied by kusala cetasikas are sobhana cittas. Metta, Sarah ======== #81338 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:36 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (74) philofillet Hi Sarah > S: You're right, sobhana(beautiful, pure)dhammas, refer to cittas and > cetasikas (i.e. paramattha dhammas only). All kusala cittas are > accompanied by sobhana cetasikas, but so are the kiriya cittas of the > arahant. Also, vipaka cittas accompanied by kusala cetasikas are sobhana > cittas. Thanks. So the following from the beginning of this chapter in the Perfections would technically be incorrect: > Khanti or patience is kusala, it is a sobhana > (beautiful) dhamma which does not arise with akusala > citta, with the citta rooted in attachment, but which > arises with kusala citta. Since khanti is not a cetasika, it cannot be sobhana, technically speaking. No big deal. I'm just happy to be discussing this sort of thing for a change instead of ranting. Metta, Phil #81339 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:38 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wife as object of awareness philofillet Hi Sarah > I'm interested to explore your phrase of the month,"attabhavapatilabho", > with you. > > You've referred to it a few times, as in recently: I'm touched that you picked up on how important this phrase is for me these days. Thank you for being such a good Dhamma friend. I'm at work now, but look forward to reading your post carefully later. Metta, Phil #81340 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:47 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.1 sarahprocter... Hi Larry & all, Thanks for your excellent presentation and comments. --- LBIDD@... wrote: > Vism: Now it was said earlier that he should first fortify his knowledge > by learning and questioning about those things that are the "soil" after > he has perfected the two purifications -- purification of virtue and > purification of consciousness -- that are the "roots" '. ... S: I think an important point to note is that there is no visuddhi (purification) without the development of panna of vipassana. Note in CMA (ch VII, guide to 32-33, on the 37 factors of enlightenment: "The sixfold purification (chabbisuddhi): These are the six mundane stages of purification preceding and culminating in the seventh, supramundane, stage of purification (see IX, #22). These six stages are an expanded version of the more common threefold division of the preliminary path into virtue, concentration, and wisdom. The seventh stage is the attainment of the supramundane paths. In the six mundane stages of purification the thirty-seven requisites of enlightenment are found in various combinations, according to circumstances." At the beginning of IX, #22, it starts with: "vipassanaakamma.t.thaane pana siilavisuddhi, cittavisuddhi, di.t.thivisuddhi..." "In insight meditation, the compendium of purifications is sevenfold: (1)purification of virtue, (2) purification of mind, (3) purification of view......" S: In other words, there cannot even be the first purification without the development of panna (vipassana). So virtue is developed with right understanding. ... <..> > L: "Learning and questioning about those things that are the 'soil' " > refers to learning and questioning about the details of abhidhamma. This > is preliminary to the development of understanding that is accomplished > with the next five purifications. > > Vism: But it was said above that "The five purifications, purification > of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and > vision of what is path and what is not path, purification by knowledge > and vision of the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the > "trunk" '. Herein, 'purification of view' is the correct seeing of > mentality-materiality. > > L: Here 'mentality' should be taken as the 4 aggregates including > consciousness but not including nibbana. Nibbana is the end. ... S: Good work! From CMA IX, 30 "Purification of View" "Lakkha.na-rasa-paccupa.t.thaana-pada.t.thaana-vasena naama-ruupapariggaho di.t.thivisuddhi naama." "Purification of view is the discernment of mind and matter with respect to their characteristics, functions, manifestations, and proximate causes." S: This is the first stage of tender insight. From CMA, Guide note to the above: "Purification of view is so called because it helps to purify one of the wrong view of a permanent self. This purification is arrived at in the course of meditation (S: ! bhavana?) by discerning the personality as a compound of mental and material factors which occur interdependently, without any controlling of self within or behind them. This stage is also called the analytical knowledge of mind and matter (naamaruupavavatthaana~naa.na) beccause the mental and material phenomena are distinguished by their characteristics, etc.)" S: I'd like to stress that this vipassana wisdom refers to the direct understanding of dhammas and their characterisitcs through insight, not a thinking/analytical/book knowledge or pariyatti level knowledge. So is there any awareness and understanding of any nama or rupa now? The beginning always has to be now. Metta, Sarah p.s Apologies as usual for delays in responding to this and many threads....I'm glad to see that Nina has also responded. I hope others do too:). ======= #81341 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:56 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) nilovg Hi Phil, Op 18-jan-2008, om 11:36 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > So the following from the beginning of this chapter in the > Perfections would technically be incorrect: > > > Khanti or patience is kusala, it is a sobhana > > (beautiful) dhamma which does not arise with akusala > > citta, with the citta rooted in attachment, but which > > arises with kusala citta. > > Since khanti is not a cetasika, it cannot be sobhana, technically > speaking. -------- N: Is patience kusala or not? since it is not an illusion, why can it not be called a dhamma? It is a beautiful quality. Nina. #81342 From: upasaka@... Date: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:53 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil) - In a message dated 1/18/2008 5:56:27 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Phil, Op 18-jan-2008, om 11:36 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > So the following from the beginning of this chapter in the > Perfections would technically be incorrect: > > > Khanti or patience is kusala, it is a sobhana > > (beautiful) dhamma which does not arise with akusala > > citta, with the citta rooted in attachment, but which > > arises with kusala citta. > > Since khanti is not a cetasika, it cannot be sobhana, technically > speaking. -------- N: Is patience kusala or not? since it is not an illusion, why can it not be called a dhamma? It is a beautiful quality. Nina. ================================ I evidently missed something. Why is khanti not a cetasika? It is either a rupa, citta, cetasika, nibbana, or pa~n~natto (is that the singular form?), else there is no such thing as khanti. I see no other possible alternatives. As I see it, it is neither an instance of material form, nor of consciousness, and it is not an aggregation, or nibbana, and it certainly is not nothing at all. So, that leaves cetasika. And clearly, patience is a mental factor. By the way, 'khanti', when used to signify a beautiful mental quality, is a restriction on the general term of patience. A safe-cracker will have states accompanied by patience while working on the combination of a vault. That patience isn't khanti. With metta, Howard #81343 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:15 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 16 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 510. "Maa appakassa hetu, kaamasukhassa vipula.m jahii sukha.m; maa puthulomova ba.lisa.m, gilitvaa pacchaa viha~n~nasi. 511. "Kaama.m kaamesu damassu, taava sunakhova sa"nkhalaabaddho; kaahinti khu ta.m kaamaa, chaataa sunakha.mva ca.n.daalaa. 512. "Aparimita~nca dukkha.m, bahuuni ca cittadomanassaani; anubhohisi kaamayutto, pa.tinissaja addhuve kaame. 513. "Ajaramhi vijjamaane, ki.m tava kaamehi yesu jaraa; mara.nabyaadhigahia, sabbaa sabbattha jaatiyo. 514. "Idamajaramidamamara.m, idamajaraamara.m padamasoka.m; asapattamasambaadha.m, akhalitamabhaya.m nirupataapa.m. 508. "Do not abandoneextensive happiness for the sake of a little happiness from sensual pleasures. Do not suffer afterwards, like a putholoma fish that has swallowed the hook. 509. "If it happens [that you are] among sensual pleasures, just control yourself. [You are] like a dog bound by a chain. Assuredly sensual pleasures will treat you as hungry outcasts treat a dog. 510. "Intent upon sensual pleasures, you will suffer both unlimited pain and much mental distress. Give up unstable sensual pleasures. 511. "When the unageing exists, what do you want with sensual pleasures? All births everywhere are bound up with birth, death, and sickness. 512. "This is unageing, this is undying. This is the unageing, undying state [that is] without grieving, without enmity, unobstructed, without stumbling, without fear, without burning. RD: Cast not away, because of some vain joy Of sense, the vaster happiness sublime, Lest like the finny carp thou gulp the hook, Only to find thyself for that foredone *441 (508) Tame thou thyself in sense-desires, nor let Thyself be bound by them, as is a dog Bound by a chain; else will they do forsooth With thee as hungry pariahs with that dog. *442 (509) Once more I say, immeasurable Ills And many weary miseries of mind Thou'lt suffer yoked to sensual life. Renounce, Renounce desires of sense! They pass away. (510) THERE IS, THAT GROWETH NEVER OLD! *443 O how Canst thou be satisfied with sense-desires That age so soon? Are not all things reborn, Where'er it be, gripped by disease and death? (511) THIS *444 that doth ne'er grow old, that dieth not, THIS never-ageing, never-dying Path - No sorrow cometh there, no enemies, Nor is there any crowd; *445 none faint or fail, No fear cometh, nor aught that doth torment - (512) *441 A simile from Sa.myutta Nik., ii. 226, - iv. 158; Jaataka, v. 389; vi. 416, 432, 437. *442 The dog, according to the Commentary, being unable to get away from them, is killed, and presumably eaten. There is no suggestion to the effect that it was acting as watch-dog, and that the pariahs were thieves, beyond stealing the dog. 'Will they do' = kaahinti; Commentary = karissanti. Pischel pronounced the other reading khaahinti as 'no doubt correct,' because of a passage in Hemacandra's Prakrit Grammar. But Dhammapaala, nearer to the age of the Therigaathaa Pali by at least 500 years, seems to me to have the stronger claim, let alone plausibility. *443 She now, says the Commentary, turns to show forth the excellence of Nibbana. *444 Asambaadha.m. The Commentary takes this figuratively: 'from the absence of the crowd of corruptions' (or torments, kilesaa.). In view of the cardinal importance in the Vinaya of cultivating solitude (cf. Dhammadinnaa in Ps. xii.), because, too, of its being the path of the minority, and because of the Suttanta phrase calling the lay life sambaadha, and the religious life abbhokaasa, free as air, I incline to take it literally. *445 [No footnote matches this number in the original text.] .. to be continued, connie #81344 From: "Bhikkhu Samahita" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:28 am Subject: Ability Purification! bhikkhu0 Friends: In how many aspects are the five abilities (Indriya) purified? There are these 5 mental Abilities: The ability (faculty) of faith , The ability of energy , The ability of awareness , The ability of concentration , The ability of understanding . These five abilities are purified in fifteen aspects. When the noble friend avoids faithless persons, cultivates, frequents and honours faithful persons, and reviews Suttas that inspire confidence, the faith ability is purified in these three aspects. When the noble friend avoids idle or lazy persons, cultivates, frequents, and honours energetic persons, and reviews own practise of the 4 best Efforts, the energy ability is purified in these three aspects. When the noble friend avoids negligent, forgetful persons, cultivates, frequents and honours mindful persons, and reviews the 4 Foundations of Awareness, the mindfulness ability is purified in these three aspects. When the noble friend avoids unconcentrated persons, cultivates, frequents and honours focused & concentrated persons, and reviews the 4 Jhanas and Liberations, then the concentration ability is purified in these three aspects. When the noble friend avoids ignorant persons, cultivates, frequents, and honours persons who understand, and reviews the insight of profound knowledge, the understanding ability is purified in these three aspects. So when the noble friend avoids these five kinds of persons, cultivates, frequents, and honours these five kinds of persons, and reviews these five kinds of Suttas, the five abilities is purified in these fifteen aspects. Source: Sariputta in: The Path of Discrimination: Patidasambhidamagga: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Friendship is the Greatest * Bhikkhu Samahita * Sri Lanka :-) .... #81345 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:36 am Subject: Re: Perfections Corner (74) philofillet Hi Nina and Howard and all > > Since khanti is not a cetasika, it cannot be sobhana, technically > > speaking. > -------- > N: Is patience kusala or not? since it is not an illusion, why can it > not be called a dhamma? It is a beautiful quality. Really not asking about this to get into what dhammas, patience are in the deeper sense. Just trying to nail down a technical term. And from what Sarah just posted, sobhanna only refers to paramattha dhammas, as defined in Abhidhamma. Patience (khanti) is not a paramattha dhamma, according to the Abhidhamma classification. Thus it is not "a sobhanna dhamma" in the Abhidhamma sense of the word. I'm starting to wonder if this is going to turn into one of those dodging-around-to-avoid admitting an error things! It's really a very small, technical error, I think. Or was Sarah mistaken in saying that sobhanna only refers to paramattha dhammas, which would allow you to say khanti is "sobhanna" If that's the case, fine. As for Howard's question - if khanti isn't a cetasika, what is it? - that's a bigger and more important question that I wasn't intending to get into. Metta, Phil #81346 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:48 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 philofillet Hi Ken I'm completely burned out on this issue, for the time being at least, but just to clarify re the following: > Phil, among others, believes that the Visudhimagga teaches formal > samatha practices for beginners. > I would say it doesn't exclude beginners, since it refers to something or other being a suitable practice for the "clansman who is a beginner." That's right there in the text, Ken. And the "it was in the Buddha's day so we can't compare ourselves to that kind of understanding" line doesn't work because of course it wasn't in the Buddha's day when Vism was compiled. That's my last word on meditation for the time being. Metta, Phil #81347 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:50 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 truth_aerator Hi Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > ---------- > > As I understand the no-control perspective, formal meditation is > *never* relevant to the 8fold path - not even after there has been a vast amount of pariyatti. >?>>> If it is your opinion, then it is your kamma. Without strong meditation you are limiting yourself to Kama-Loka (which includes apaya planes) plus you'll never become an Anagamin without mastering Bhavana. Furthermore without Jhanas, you'll NEVER remove inner defilements. ""I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. " - AN9.36 [1] "If a monk would wish, 'May I be dear & pleasing to my fellows in the holy life, respected by & inspiring to them,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [2] "If a monk would wish, 'May I be someone who receives robes, almsfood, lodgings, & medical requisites for curing the sick,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [3] "If a monk would wish, 'Whatever I use or consume in terms of robes, almsfood, lodgings, & medical requisites for curing the sick, may that be of great fruit, of great benefit to those who provided them,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [4] "If a monk would wish, 'May it also be of great fruit, of great benefit, to whatever dead relatives they [the donors] recollect with brightened minds,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [5] "If a monk would wish, 'May I be content with whatever robes, almsfood, lodgings, & medical requisites for curing the sick are available,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [6] "If a monk would wish, 'May I be resistant to cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; to the touch of gadflies & mosquitoes, wind & sun & creeping things; to abusive, hurtful language; to bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, sharp, stabbing, fierce, distasteful, deadly,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [7] "If a monk would wish, 'May I overcome displeasure, and not be overcome by displeasure. May I dwell having conquered any displeasure that has arisen,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [8] "If a monk would wish, 'May I overcome fear & dread, and not be overcome by fear & dread. May I dwell having conquered any fear & dread that have arisen,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [9] "If a monk would wish, 'May I attain — whenever I want, without strain, without difficulty — the four jhanas that are heightened mental states, pleasant abidings in the here-&-now,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. [10] "If a monk would wish, 'May I — with the ending of mental fermentations — remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known & realized them for myself in the here-&-now,' then he should be one who brings the precepts to perfection, who is committed to mental calm, who does not neglect jhana, who is endowed with insight, and who frequents empty dwellings. — AN 10.71 There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the vergeof Unbinding. — Dhp 372 "[On attaining the fourth level of jhana] there remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable & luminous. Just as if a skilled goldsmith or goldsmith's apprentice were to prepare a furnace, heat up a crucible, and, taking gold with a pair of tongs, place it in the crucible. He would blow on it periodically, sprinkle water on it periodically, examine it periodically, so that the gold would become refined, well-refined, thoroughly refined, flawless, free from dross, pliant, malleable & luminous. Then whatever sort of ornament he had in mind — whether a belt, an earring, a necklace, or a gold chain — it would serve his purpose. In the same way, there remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable, & luminous. He [the meditator] discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this toward the dimension of the infinitude of space, I would develop the mind along those lines, and thus this equanimity of mine — thus supported, thus sustained — would last for a long time. (Similarly with the dimensions of the infinitude of consciousness, nothingness, & neither perception nor non-perception.)' "He discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this toward the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated. (Similarly with the dimensions of the infinitude of consciousness, nothingness, & neither perception nor non-perception.)' He neither fabricates nor wills for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, he is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" — MN 140 Samma-Samadhi is defined as 4 Jhanas. What you are saying is damaging to youself and others. > > I think this applies, not only to vipassana, but also to mundane > jhana. Textual references to "going to a quiet place" and "sitting > with legs crossed and back straight" etc., might seem suggest formal samatha practices, but I don't believe they really point to that at > all. >>>>> "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.025.than.html >>>> > The development of jhana requires the kind of panna that knows kusala from akusala. Very few people know the difference between kusala and akusala. >>>> It is their problem. Eventually they will understand it. It is not the fault of Samma-Samadhi. Besides, when you meditate properly, then you will start to intuitively understand more. >>> the finer differences (between mild akusala and genuine kusala)? And > yet such knowledge is, I believe, a prerequisite for a beginner in > jhana development. >>>> It seems that you are talking a non issue here. Atleast 5, preferebly more, precepts are required for successful cultivation of Jhana. Any real Buddhist knows these 5. >>>>> > Phil, among others, believes that the Visudhimagga teaches formal > samatha practices for beginners. As I see it, anyone who regards > himself as a "beginner" in the practice of jhana must already be able > to distinguish kusala from akusala. Only then do 'quiet > places' 'sitting postures' and 'meditation objects' take on any > relevance. >>>>> Study the SUTTAS, follow the 5 precepts, avoid as much distracting material as possible. To tell you the truth, even some evil people (ex: Devadatta) can develop Jhana. However for Jhana to be liberating it must be used in a Buddhist framework (something Devadatta didn't do). When it comes to Kusala Vs Akusala in Jhana, this is the answer: Whatever distracts you from letting go more and more, this is akusala. Whatever helps you to shed craving&aversion to get deeper into the state is "kusala". Turning your mind towards Nibbana and dispassion towards 5 aggregates is even beyond kusala or akusala - It leads to Liberation, to the ending of all kamma, good (maturing in future heavenly existence) or bad (accumulations that you had). >>> > Therefore, I would deny that even jhana meditators practiced > formal meditation. For them, going to a quiet place and sitting > straight backed with unwavering attention on a single conceptual > object would not be ritual acts performed with in the belief that > they will bring about jhana absorption. I think those are activities that naturally appeal to people who (1) know kusala from akusala and (2) have accumulated tendencies for jhana. >>>> No kidding Sherlock. It is NOT a ritual! Do you think that every meditator is a dummy for whom Jhana meditation is on the same level as lighting candles? > --------------------- > ------------------- Many people benefit from sitting quietly and watching thoughts go by. It can be a useful therapy for troubled minds, and it is practised by > people of all faiths and philosophies. Not knowing any better, most > people would assume that the Buddha's path must have involved the > same kind of thing. But that would be a big mistake. The Middle Way > is discovered and taught only once in every vast number of aeons - it is not an ordinary, commonplace kind of thing. >>>> Buddhist meditation is NOT just ABOUT BARE OBSERVATION (unless of course it is of anicca-dukkha-anatta-tathaga-DO). From a 2nd Jhana, thoughts are pacified. Jhana is about deconditioning oneself from taking any of the 5 aggregates as Self, Me or Mine. The Buddhist Jhana is only practiced by the followers of the Buddha. It is a useful therapy in the sense that if done properly, it 'burns' defilements (asavas), one of which is a belief in a self. > -------------------------------- > ---------------- > > But, as you know, the middle path is magga citta. It is a momentary > consciousness that takes a present paramattha dhamma as its object > (nibbana in the case of the supramundane path and a conditioned > dhamma in the case of the mundane path). >>>> Nibbana as an object is taken ONLY in the Jhana because only in the Jhana the 5 hindrances are removed and the mind is "bright, malleble, etc" in order to see Nibbana. == Ananda, what is the path and method, to dispel the lower bonds of the sensual world? Ananda, the bhikkhu secluding the mind thoroughly, by dispelling things of demerit, removes all bodily transgressions that bring remorse. Then secluding the mind, from sensual thoughts and thoughts of demerit, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. Established in it he reflects all things that matter, all feelings, all perceptive things, all intentions, all conscious signs are impermanent, unpleasant, an illness, an abscess, an arrow, a misfortune, an ailment, foreign, destined for destruction, is void, and devoid of a self. Then he turns the mind to the deathless element: This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, the giving up of all endearments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation and extinction (* 1). With that mind he comes to the destruction of desires. If he does not destroy desires on account of greed and interest for those same things. He arises spontaneously, with the destruction of the five lower bonds, of the sensual world, not to proceed. Ananda, this too is a method for overcoming the five lower bonds of the sensual world.. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/064-maha-malunkhyaputta-e1.htm > This path (this moment of consciousness) has no concepts in it. There > are no people, no postures, no books and no things to do. So it is > not like any other path. It is not like sitting in meditation and it > is not like reading a book. Therefore, it cannot be a combination of > those two things. >>>> If you don't abandon this line of reasoning then it harm you for a long time. > ----------------------------- > Ven P: > Not for nothing did the Lord Buddha claim, "The life of the > householder is crowded and dusty, but the way of the monk is wide > open" (MN) > ----------------------------- > > No, but this is the same Buddha who taught that the world (the loka) > was ultimately the presently arisen, momentary namas and rupas. > Therefore, we need to look closely at any of his conventionally > worded proclamations that might seem (at first glance) to contradict > this profound truth. >> ------------------ You haven't answered the Ven. P. He asked one thing and you said another. You are misinterpreting the Buddha to fit your cravings. > Ven P: > Most of you are lay people – householders – who have to deal with so many problems and the frantic rush of modern life. If I – as a monk - feel a need for formal practice so as to develop mindfulness, how much more so for those of you who are city dwellers with families and> other responsibilities? > ------------------ > > In my opinion not all monks feel this need. Also, I believe in former > times - when the ancient commentaries were well known and the > Abhidhamma was widely understood - the *vast majority of Buddhists* > did not feel the need for formal practice. > ----------------------------- This is why the attainments have declined as Adhamma has risen. The Mara is strong, it will find many smart excuses not to meditate as meditation blinds it. It is so sad that so many people can't see it and are blinded by Mara. .......... Without Jhana, you will be tied to sensuality and under Mara's control. "And any priests or contemplatives tied to these five strings of sensuality — infatuated with them, having totally fallen for them, consuming them without seeing their drawbacks or discerning the escape from them — should be known as having met with misfortune, having met with ruin; Mara can do with them as he will. Just as if a wild deer were to lie bound on a heap of snares: it should be known as having met with misfortune, having met with ruin; the hunter can do with it as he will. When the hunter comes, it won't get away as it would like. In the same way, any priests or contemplatives tied to these five strings of sensuality — infatuated with them, having totally fallen for them, consuming them without seeing their drawbacks or discerning the escape from them — should be known as having met with misfortune, having met with ruin; Mara can do with them as he will. "But any priests or contemplatives not tied to these five strings of sensuality — uninfatuated with them, having not totally fallen for them, consuming them seeing their drawbacks and discerning the escape from them — should be known as not having met with misfortune, not having met with ruin; Mara cannot do with them as he will. Just as if a wild deer were to lie unbound on a heap of snares: it should be known as not having met with misfortune, not having met with ruin; the hunter cannot do with it as he will. When the hunter comes, it will get away as it would like. In the same way, any priests or contemplatives not tied to these five strings of sensuality — uninfatuated with them, having not totally fallen for them, consuming them seeing their drawbacks and discerning the escape from them — should be known as not having met with misfortune, not having met with ruin; Mara cannot do with them as he will. "Suppose that a wild deer is living in wilderness glen. Carefree it walks, carefree it stands, carefree it sits, carefree it lies down. Why is that? Because it has gone beyond the hunter's range. 5 In the same way, a monk — quite withdrawn from sensual pleasures, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. This monk is said to have blinded Mara. Trackless, he has destroyed Mara's vision and has become invisible to the Evil One. 6 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.026.than.html Note that Jhanas are the escape from Mara. > ------------------------------ > > Understood, no reply is necessary. Thank you for the opportunity to > express my understanding of this important subject. I hope I have not > seemed disrespectful in any way. > > With respect, > Ken H >>>> You were very disrespectful to Buddha Dhamma and you have hurt my feelings which I have for Buddha-Dhamma. "And how is one the type of person who thunders but doesn't rain? There is the case where a person has mastered the Dhamma: dialogues, narratives of mixed prose and verse, explanations, verses, spontaneous exclamations, quotations, birth stories, amazing events, question & answer sessions.1 Yet he doesn't discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress.' He doesn't discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress.' He doesn't discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is the cessation of stress.' He doesn't discern, as it actually is present, that 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.' This is the type of person who thunders but doesn't rain. This type of person, I tell you, is like the thunderhead that thunders but doesn't rain. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.102.than.html Notice, no mention of Abhidhamma. 276. You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way. Those meditative ones who tread the path are released from the bonds of Mara. 282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase. 371. Meditate, O monk! Do not be heedless. Let not your mind whirl on sensual pleasures. Heedless, do not swallow a red-hot iron ball, lest you cry when burning, "O this is painful!" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.25.budd.html Buddha taught Noble Eightfold path. Where is the requirment to study AP in it? It is not found anywhere in N8P or 37 factors of awakening! In fact, 7 books of AP are not mentioned in Early Suttas! And there are NO accounts of Buddha teaching Abhidhamma Pitaka. If he taught AP to Sariputa, it would have been mentioned many times. But since it took Sariputta 2 weeks for Arahantship, even if Buddha would teach - it wouldn't be completed in 2 weeks even 1/10 of AP. So in ANY way, AP isn't nessesary for Arahatship. Many people met the Buddha, became a monks and on the 8th Day came to the Buddha declaring Arahatship. How much could you possibly study in 7 days? In the Buddha's time there were NO religious books! When you read the suttas you notice a common situation: "A person hears Buddha's talk. He becomes a monk, he asks for "Dhamma teaching in brief". Then he goes into seclusion and "in no long time" achieve Arahatship. Buddha is nowhere quoted "Go study 7 books of AP!" But he often DID say: Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, Ananda. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you all." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.152.than.html Better than a hundred years lived without virtue, uncentered, is one day lived by a virtuous person absorbed in jhana.And better than a hundred years lived undiscerning, uncentered,is one day lived by a discerning person absorbed in jhana. - Dhp VIII Sahassavagga Thousands 110-115 ------- Is being learned means memorizing AP? Is practice vs study an issue? "And how is a monk learned? His evil, unskillful qualities that are defiled, that lead to further becoming, create trouble, ripen in stress, and lead to future birth, aging, & death have streamed away. This is how a monk is learned. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.039.than.html#t-10 Being learned has nothing to do with memorizing "philosophies" ! "And which is comprehension? Any ending of passion, ending of aversion, ending of delusion. 1 This is called comprehension." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.023.than.html Lots of Metta& Karuna, In Dhamma, Alex #81348 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:29 am Subject: Re: Vism.XVII,232 (dsg #81323) nichiconn Sorry Vsm readers! I should have typed "Path of Purity, p.681" instead of "Path of Purification" for the extract in #81323. connie #81349 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:33 am Subject: Re: The Noble Search (Was: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta?) scottduncan2 Dear Mike, Sorry for the delay, I'm a bit swamped and the Paa.li seemed a bit difficult this time. Thanks for your comments: M: "I'd certainly agree that nibbaana can't be "attained through having a goal held consciously". What do you think of this, though, from the'Noble Search Sutta'? "...before my Awakening...The thought occurred to me...What if I, being subject myself to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, were to seek the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding?" Mike, this is very good. Here's a more full passage from the ~Naa.namoli/Bodhi translation: MN 26 Ariyapariyesana Sutta The Noble Search: "And what is the noble search (ariyaa pariyesanaa)? Here someone being himself subject to birth, having understood the danger in what is subject to birth, seeks the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbaana; being himself subject to ageing...he seeks the unageing security...being himself subject to sickness...he seeks the unailing supreme security...being himself subject to death...he seeks the deathless supreme security...being himself subject to sorrow...he seeks the sorrowless supreme security...being himself subject to defilement, having understood the danger in what is subject to defilement, he seeks the undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbaana. This is the noble search. "Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still only an unenlightened Bodhisatta, I too, being myself subject to birth...Suppose that, being subject to birth...I seek the unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, and undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbaana.'" [The second paragraph above: Ahampi suda.m bhikkhave pubbeva sambodhaa anabhisambuddho bodhisattova samaano attanaa jaatidhammo samaano jaatidhamma~n~neva pariyesaami, attanaa jaraadhammo samaano jaraadhamma~n~neva pariyesaami, attanaa byaadhidhammo samaano byaadhidhamma~n~neva pariyesaami, attanaa mara.nadhammo samaano mara.nadhamma~n~neva pariyesaami, attanaa sokadhammo samaano sokadhamma~n~neva pariyesaami, attanaa sa"nkilesadhammo samaano sa"nkilesadhamma~n~neva pariyesaami.] M: "Besides my particular liking for this sutta, it seems significant to me because (a) it shows the Bodhisatta conceiving of (the concept of) nibbaana before (I think?) having attained any path, and (b) because it seems to me to establish a (conceptual) goal toward which he consciously strove until reaching the actual goal..." Scott: This is food for thought. I'm thinking that the moment of consciousness that conditioned this thought for the Bodhisatta was likely one consisting of developed mental factors which do not exist for me at the same lofty level of development. M: "Do you reckon this is only a possibility for bodhisattas, or...?" Scott: I think that ariyaa pariyesanaa is likely not the same as me simply saying to myself or others that I'm really into Nibbaana and want to cross the river. I think 'ariyaa' is a very important qualifier. I think other factors must be present in order for one's 'search' for Nibbaana to be more than just talking. Here's Sammohavinodanii (II, p. 275): "...Pariyesanaa ('search') is the search for visible data, etc. as object. For what comes to be when there is craving. Laabho ('gain') is the gain of a visible datum, etc., as object. For that comes to be when there is a search. But vinicchayo ('discernment' se Dii 58-61) is fourfold by knowledge, craving, view, and applied thought. Herein, discernment by knowledge is this: 'One should know how to discern [the different kinds of happiness; knowing how to discern happiness, one should devote oneself to happiness within' (M iii 230,233). The 108 ways of behaviour of craving (see MA i 219) handed down thus: 'Discernment - there are two kinds of discernment. Discernment by craving and discernment by view...are discernment by craving. The 62 kinds of wrong view are discernment by view. But in the sutta [which says:] 'Zeal, Lord of Gods, has its origin in applied thought' (D ii 277) and here as well, it is only applied thought which has been handed down as discernment. For on making a gain, the discerning is done by applied thought [of it as] desirable or undesirable, good or not good..." What do you think? Sincerely, Scott. #81350 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:34 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 philofillet ?@?@Hi again, Ken and all I suppose I should type out a few of these passages. I don't suppose it will make any difference, but it might. in VIII,188: "Herein, the clansman who is a beginner should first give attention to this meditation subject by counting. And when counting , he should not stop short of five or go beyond ten or make any break in the series." Yes, I suppose not-stopping-short-of-five can arise due to conditions, hmm? There is a very neat thing in the section on kasinas. I'm not particularly interested in kasinas but I like the way it designates different approaches for those who have practiced before, who have "merit" and those who don't. For example, the fire kasina: "Herein, when someone with merit, having had previous practice, is apprehending the sign, it arises in him in any sort of fire, not made up, as he lookes at the fiery combustion in a lamp's flame or in a furnace or in a place for baking bowls or in a forest conflagration, as in the Elder Cittagutta's case." So here, clearly, we have the rising-due-to-conditions thing, not methodic instruction. And here come the methodic instructions: "Anyone else should make one up. Here are the directions for making it up, except for Ken H, who should not follow them because they do not apply to him. He (not Ken H) should split up some damp heartwood, dry it, and break it up into short lengths. He should go to a suitable tree root or to a shed and there make a pile in the way done for baking bowls, and have it lit. He (not you Ken H!) should make a hole a span and four fingers wide in a rush mat.." and so on. You get the idea. As I have said recently, there is ample reason to point out the impediments to jhana that are taught in Vism, and to debate the suitability of formal meditation to this day and age but to deny that the ancient texts contain methodic meditation instruction is nutty. Nothing more to say on this. I have done my duty by posting this. Metta, Phil #81351 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:48 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 philofillet Oh Dear Lord, I'm never going to get out of here! :) > in VIII,188: "Herein, the clansman who is a beginner should first > give attention to this meditation subject by counting. And when > counting , he should not stop short of five or go beyond ten or make > any break in the series." Yes, I suppose not-stopping-short-of-five > can arise due to conditions, hmm? Of course when you get down to it, the instructions that are given are all conditioned and not-stopping-short-of-five *does* arise due to conditions, of course. That doesn't mean methodic instructions are not given in the ancient texts. Metta, Phil #81352 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 6:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) nilovg Hi Phil, Op 18-jan-2008, om 14:36 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Really not asking about this to get into what dhammas, patience > are in the deeper sense. Just trying to nail down a technical term. > And from what Sarah just posted, sobhanna only refers to paramattha > dhammas, as defined in Abhidhamma. Patience (khanti) is not a > paramattha dhamma, according to the Abhidhamma classification. ------- N: Khanti is viriya cetasika. But this word is used to explain a certain quality or aspect of it. For this reason it is a dhamma. Another reason: the word dhamma has many meanings, one of these is quality, gu.na. Today Rob K and Sarah gave links to the meaning of dhamma. Nina. #81353 From: "Phil" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:07 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) philofillet Hi Nina > N: Khanti is viriya cetasika. Ok, thanks Nina. I think I have it now. Not that it's an aspect of viriya, it *is* viriya. Sorry it took me so long. Ah, just a moment...viriya is a perfection too, this means two perfections for one cetasika...which sounds strange to me. Nevermind, Nina, I'll get back to you on this later if it still feels important to me. Metta, Phil #81354 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:28 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment. nilovg Dear friends, Chapter 5. Association with Wise Friends We read in the “Gradual Sayings” , Book of the Fours, Ch XXV, § 6, Growth in wisdom, that the Buddha said: Monks, these four states conduce to growth in wisdom. What four? Association with a good man, hearing the true Dhamma, right attention and practice in accordance with the Dhamma. Association with a good friend in Dhamma is one of the conditions for enlightenment. A good friend in Dhamma is a person who understands Dhamma correctly and can explain it. It is very fortunate that Acharn Sujin is our good friend in Dhamma who reminds us all the time of the meaning of anattå. We continue to take all dhammas for “self” if right understanding of them is not developed. When kusala citta arises we are likely to take this for “my kusala” or we may think of ourselves as being a good person, and that is conceit. When akusala citta arises we may have aversion about it or be ashamed about it, and we fail to see it as merely an impersonal element that arises because of its own conditions. There can be mindfulness and understanding of whatever dhamma appears without any selection of the object of awareness. One of my friends, Khun Purani, told me that her father, after the passing away of her mother, was inconsolable and desperate. Khun Purani told me how much Khun Sujin and other friends had supported him during the days preceding the cremation of her mother. Acharn Sujin spoke about the Dhamma right in front of the coffin. Formerly Khun Purani’s father did not have much interest in the Buddha’s teachings, but the support of the good friends in Dhamma helped him to have more confidence in the teachings. Khun Purani could persuade him to join our pilgrimage and day by day we could see how he changed. It was like a miracle. The Dhamma can change a person’s life. Acharn Sujin spoke about another case where the Dhamma changed a person’s life. After a woman had suffered a stroke the doctors told her that she could not become cured from her paralysis. But she had great confidence in the Dhamma and she regained her former health completely. This was also like a miracle. During our pilgrimage Lodewijk and I experienced that it is beneficial to be in the company of good friends. Someone who had received an inconvenient room in one of the hotels did not complain. She said that before taking part of this journey she had reminded herself not to have any expectations. As Acharn reminded us time and again: the different situations of our life are a test for our understanding. ****** Nina. #81355 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:59 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina (and Phil) - In a message dated 1/18/2008 9:53:29 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Phil, Op 18-jan-2008, om 14:36 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > Really not asking about this to get into what dhammas, patience > are in the deeper sense. Just trying to nail down a technical term. > And from what Sarah just posted, sobhanna only refers to paramattha > dhammas, as defined in Abhidhamma. Patience (khanti) is not a > paramattha dhamma, according to the Abhidhamma classification. ------- N: Khanti is viriya cetasika. But this word is used to explain a certain quality or aspect of it. For this reason it is a dhamma. Another reason: the word dhamma has many meanings, one of these is quality, gu.na. Today Rob K and Sarah gave links to the meaning of dhamma. Nina. ================================= It *does* make sense to me to see patience as a form of effort. We tend to think of patience as a passive quality, but I think that it is a kind of active "monitoring" similar in category to mindfulness. Patience (or forbearance) is more a resistance to, or an avoiding of, impatience - a form of aversive desire, than it is acceptance/upekkha. When there is genuine upekkha present, patience, if it *was* needed, has already done it's work and is no longer required. I do think, though, that it should be pointed out that among the 10 perfections, the perfection of forbearance and the perfection of energy/effort are distinguished as two distinct perfections. That points possibly to khanti not being a type of viriya. (This creates some ambiguity, it seems.) Also, I note that though you consider khanti as beautiful, as do I, if it is a species of viriya, that it problematical, because viriya is not listed as a sobhana cetasika. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #81356 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:00 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) nilovg Hi Phil, Op 18-jan-2008, om 16:07 heeft Phil het volgende geschreven: > .viriya is a perfection too, this means two perfections for one > cetasika...which sounds strange to me. ------ N: In different contexts different aspects. I give another example. The thirtyseven factors of enlightenment: he 5 Spiritual Faculties (indriya; ), the 5 Spiritual Powers (bala, q.v.), these are: faith (saddhÄ?, q.v.), (2) energy (viriya, q.v.), (3) mindfulness (sati, q.v.), (4) concentration (samÄ?dhi, q.v.), (5) wisdom (paññÄ?, q.v.). You see the same five cetasikas are indriya and bala. Among these 37 are also the bojjhaá¹…ga: 'the 7 Factors of Enlightenment',: Mindfulness (sati-sambojjhaá¹…ga; s. sati), investigation of the law (dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhaá¹…ga), energy (viriya-sambojjhaá¹…ga; s. viriya, padhÄ?na), rapture (pÄ«ti-sambojjhaá¹…ga, q.v.) tranquillity (passaddhi-sambojjhaá¹…ga, q.v.), concentration (samÄ?dhi- sambojjhaá¹…ga, q.v.), equanimity (upekkhÄ?, q.v.). " But energy is also among the four right efforts, also part of the thirtyseven factors of enlightenment. And also among the indriyas and the balas. This shows that classifications are not rigid, they are there just to help people. The same about the perfections. We should not think of rigid classifications, then we lose the essence. Nina. #81357 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:07 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) nilovg Hi Howard, Op 18-jan-2008, om 16:59 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It *does* make sense to me to see patience as a form of effort. We > tend > to think of patience as a passive quality, but I think that it is a > kind of > active "monitoring" similar in category to mindfulness. Patience (or > forbearance) is more a resistance to, or an avoiding of, impatience > - a form of > aversive desire, than it is acceptance/upekkha. When there is > genuine upekkha > present, patience, if it *was* needed, has already done it's work > and is no longer > required. ------ N: We could think of acceptance and tolerance, also when the situation or a person is difficult to handle. Patience is the opposite of lobha and of dosa. When an object is very pleasant one will not be infatuated and when it is unpleasant, like too much wind and rain, one will not give in to dosa. There are many aspects to it. It is said (Co to Cariyapitaka) that ... -------- > I do think, though, that it should be pointed out that among the 10 > perfections, the perfection of forbearance and the perfection of > energy/effort > are distinguished as two distinct perfections. That points possibly > to khanti > not being a type of viriya. (This creates some ambiguity, it > seems.) Also, I > note that though you consider khanti as beautiful, as do I, if it > is a species > of viriya, that it problematical, because viriya is not listed as a > sobhana > cetasika. ------ N:The cetasikas listed as sobhana cetasikas only accompany sobhana cittas. Other cetasikas, such as viriya, that accompany cittas of all jatis, kusala, akusala, vipaaka, kiriya, are not listed as sobhana cetasikas. However, when they accompany kusala cittas, they are also kusala. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas are of the same jaati. In the case of the perfections only sobhana dhammas are dealt with. Thus, the perfection of viriya is sobhana dhamma. I do not see much point in it to try to bring khanti under this or that category. Rather I would like to understand it as a perfection in my life. And sobhana it is. Nina. #81358 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:11 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of the Purification of View V.2 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 18-jan-2008, om 2:42 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > I've been wondering about this. It certainly makes sense on a > practical level. However, The Visuddhimagga has a very specific > program. > The insight based on jhana factors is comparatively modest.For > example, > akusala cittas are not an object. And one is to begin with nama and > then > go on to concretely produced rupa. In a way this insight is > orchestrated. It has a pattern. ------- N: I do not think of a program where it vipassana concerns. But the jhanacitta has just fallen away and thus he can be aware and investigate that citta and cetasikas. After that defilements arise again and these must be known too. And rupa. When we read the text it seems: nama first then rupa or rupa first then nama, but this is mainly for teaching purposes. Nobody can control what object sati takes. Nina. #81359 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:53 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/18/2008 3:07:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 18-jan-2008, om 16:59 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > It *does* make sense to me to see patience as a form of effort. We > tend > to think of patience as a passive quality, but I think that it is a > kind of > active "monitoring" similar in category to mindfulness. Patience (or > forbearance) is more a resistance to, or an avoiding of, impatience > - a form of > aversive desire, than it is acceptance/upekkha. When there is > genuine upekkha > present, patience, if it *was* needed, has already done it's work > and is no longer > required. ------ N: We could think of acceptance and tolerance, also when the situation or a person is difficult to handle. Patience is the opposite of lobha and of dosa. When an object is very pleasant one will not be infatuated and when it is unpleasant, like too much wind and rain, one will not give in to dosa. There are many aspects to it. It is said (Co to Cariyapitaka) that ... -------- > I do think, though, that it should be pointed out that among the 10 > perfections, the perfection of forbearance and the perfection of > energy/effort > are distinguished as two distinct perfections. That points possibly > to khanti > not being a type of viriya. (This creates some ambiguity, it > seems.) Also, I > note that though you consider khanti as beautiful, as do I, if it > is a species > of viriya, that it problematical, because viriya is not listed as a > sobhana > cetasika. ------ N:The cetasikas listed as sobhana cetasikas only accompany sobhana cittas. Other cetasikas, such as viriya, that accompany cittas of all jatis, kusala, akusala, vipaaka, kiriya, are not listed as sobhana cetasikas. However, when they accompany kusala cittas, they are also kusala. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas are of the same jaati. In the case of the perfections only sobhana dhammas are dealt with. Thus, the perfection of viriya is sobhana dhamma. I do not see much point in it to try to bring khanti under this or that category. Rather I would like to understand it as a perfection in my life. And sobhana it is. Nina. ======================================= Thank you for this post, Nina. I find it a very clear one. I understand that viriya, including viriya in it's form of khanti, is sobhana or not depending on whether the current citta is sobhana or not. As for when the citta is sobhana, that, I presume, is determined by cetasikas (other than the viriya) accompanying that consciousness, because consciousness in and of itself is neutral, correct? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream/ (From the Diamond Sutra) #81360 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:39 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka. was: TYPO FIX jonoabb Hi Howard (and Nina) I've been following your discussion on kamma/vipaka with interest. Hope you don't mind if I come in here. upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > ... > > Howard: > Nothing arises from a single condition, and I didn't say here that the > motion is "produced" by kamma in the sense of the kamma being the sole > condition, but only that kamma/cetana was "a" condition for for the motion. There is > an impulse to move, and the movement follows. Obviously other conditions > were also requisite, but the cetana was a major condition. The same thing > happens when I'm relaxing with eyes closed, and someone says "Look at that!" There > is a rapid willing that occurs, and the eyes open. This is an instance of > kamma immediately leading to a rupa result. > You are pointing here to the relationship between the intention that prompts some action and the rupa that is then experienced as a result of that action. To my understanding, this relationship is not one of kamma and vipaka (notwithstanding that kamma is cetana). Firstly, the intended "result" may or may not happen. Movement does not always follow the impulse to move. One may look but not be able to see what one is trying to see, or anything at all. Secondly, there is no necessary relationship between the nature or quality of the "kamma" and that of the "result". For example, out of attachment I eat a piece of chocolate (akusala intention all the way!) and thereby experience a pleasant object through the taste door. No cause and result relationship there. Thirdly, whether or not there is any identifiable intentional act, there is experience through various sense-doors going on all the time. To my understanding of the teachings, if there is not the accumulated kamma, the vipaka cannot arise. Thus, in the chocolate example, if there is not the kamma for a particular pleasant experience through that sense-door, the pleasant taste will not be experienced, regardless of there being a piece of chocolate there and my intention to enjoy it. > ... > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The motion that occurs when turning one's head or opening one's eyes may > not be the sort of resultant rupa you are thinking of, but it still is a > rupa conditioned (rather directly, in fact) by kamma/cetana. And this is crystal > clear. There is no need to look it up in a book. > -------------------------------------------------- > I don't think there is any cause-and-result relationship between an intention to open one's eyes and the movement of the eyelids to open (except in a very conventional sense). The Buddha's teaching on kamma and vipaka is pointing to an altogether different level of connection, as I see it. Jon #81361 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:56 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhatrue Hi Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Rahula ,Alex , James ... > > you wrote: > > >... because I have found one sutta where the monk is not supposed > to "assume" nibbana to be self. < > Can you let us know whic sutta? It would be great if you could post > I quoted that sutta a very long time ago. When I get some time I will try to find it again. Metta, James #81362 From: upasaka@... Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:11 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka. was: TYPO FIX upasaka_howard Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/18/2008 5:40:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jonabbott@... writes: Hi Howard (and Nina) I've been following your discussion on kamma/vipaka with interest. Hope you don't mind if I come in here. upasaka@... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > ... > > Howard: > Nothing arises from a single condition, and I didn't say here that the > motion is "produced" by kamma in the sense of the kamma being the sole > condition, but only that kamma/cetana was "a" condition for for the motion. There is > an impulse to move, and the movement follows. Obviously other conditions > were also requisite, but the cetana was a major condition. The same thing > happens when I'm relaxing with eyes closed, and someone says "Look at that!" There > is a rapid willing that occurs, and the eyes open. This is an instance of > kamma immediately leading to a rupa result. > You are pointing here to the relationship between the intention that prompts some action and the rupa that is then experienced as a result of that action. ----------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Not quite. The action and the rupa are one and the same. The action = the motion = the rupa. There is cetana that conditions eyelid motion. I am saying that this motion is kamma-conditioned rupa (kamma-samuttaana-ruupa). If vipaka must be nama, then 'vipaka' is the wrong word in this case. I don't care about the word - only about the fact of willing conditioning a rupa. ------------------------------------------------------------- To my understanding, this relationship is not one of kamma and vipaka (notwithstanding that kamma is cetana). ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay, fine. That is unimportant to me. --------------------------------------------------------- Firstly, the intended "result" may or may not happen. Movement does not always follow the impulse to move. One may look but not be able to see what one is trying to see, or anything at all. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Who cares, Jon? I'm not talking about seeing at the moment, but of opening one's eyes. There is willing that leads to action. This is simple, Jon. What are you debating? --------------------------------------------------------- Secondly, there is no necessary relationship between the nature or quality of the "kamma" and that of the "result". For example, out of attachment I eat a piece of chocolate (akusala intention all the way!) and thereby experience a pleasant object through the taste door. No cause and result relationship there. --------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't get your point, Jon. The intentional actions taught by the Buddha do cultivate the mind usefully. In any case, my point was that intention conditions results, among which are both namas and rupas. What we intentionally do has consequences. They aren't always intended consequences, but, in simple cases, they often are - as when we have the impulse to open our eyes, and do so. It seems to me that what you are after is that we should never act intentionally at all, and especially not meditate!! It seems to me that you are using every possible argument you can to stop people from meditating. I think that is most contrary to the Dhamma. -------------------------------------------------------- Thirdly, whether or not there is any identifiable intentional act, there is experience through various sense-doors going on all the time. ------------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Hmm, you noticed that. Me, too. The more we watch, the better we can see the cause and effect that occurs. Do you observe cetana and its effect in your body-mind, Jon? Do you engage in such mental monitoring? It is important Dhamma practice. If you watch the bodily movements consistently enough, you'll see how we react with desire and aversion, often quite subtly. You'll see willing and response. You'll see conditionality. This is Dhamma practice. ---------------------------------------------------------- To my understanding of the teachings, if there is not the accumulated kamma, the vipaka cannot arise. Thus, in the chocolate example, if there is not the kamma for a particular pleasant experience through that sense-door, the pleasant taste will not be experienced, regardless of there being a piece of chocolate there and my intention to enjoy it. ---------------------------------------------------------- Howard: That multiple conditions are required for an effect is not in debate. ----------------------------------------------------------- > ... > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The motion that occurs when turning one's head or opening one's eyes may > not be the sort of resultant rupa you are thinking of, but it still is a > rupa conditioned (rather directly, in fact) by kamma/cetana. And this is crystal > clear. There is no need to look it up in a book. > -------------------------------------------------- > I don't think there is any cause-and-result relationship between an intention to open one's eyes and the movement of the eyelids to open (except in a very conventional sense). ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: And I think that is hilariously false! It is patently false. --------------------------------------------------- The Buddha's teaching on kamma and vipaka is pointing to an altogether different level of connection, as I see it. Jon ========================== With metta, Howard #81363 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:15 pm Subject: 1.Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 buddhatrue Hi Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > James cited this sutta soem time back: > "There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five? > > "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has > heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. > One's mind grows serene. > > "These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an...5.202.than.html > Robert > How did I get dragged into this endless discussion? ;-)) Yes, listening to the dhamma will make the mind grow serene (calm). However, notice that this sutta doesn't say that listening will automatically lead to jhana, the paths and fruits, or nibbana. The Buddha's practice doesn't consist entirely of listening to the Dhamma. Listening is beneficial, no doubt about that, but it isn't everything. Also, realize that in the Buddha's time the faculty of listening was much stronger than it is today. In the Buddha's time, people listened with mindfulness and concentration to the extent that they could remember for a long time, word-for-word, what they heard. Today, most people forget five minutes afterwards what they listened to. Therefore, today, I would say that meditation practice is in order to really penetrate the teachings. Metta, James #81364 From: "Alex" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:09 pm Subject: 1.Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 truth_aerator Dear RobertK, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Alex > Contemplating the teachings can make the mind "malleble...lofty and > pleased": > > James cited this sutta soem time back: > "There are these five rewards in listening to the Dhamma. Which five? > > "One hears what one has not heard before. One clarifies what one has > heard before. One gets rid of doubt. One's views are made straight. > One's mind grows serene. > > "These are the five rewards in listening to the Dhamma." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an...5.202.than.html > Robert > We need to remember the times we are in. We no longer have a live Buddha face to face speaking in his and our native tongue. Being with the Buddha himself had a very powerful effect on the listener, don't you think? Furthermore he could say what one needed to hear at the right time. Today we don't have such opportunities. Look, I am all for sutta study, but it should never be the sole path. Study the suttas, and put them into practice. Jhana especially when it is well developed helps one to really dig deep into the meaning of what the Buddha has said. Besides, don't you remember about 4 grades of people? ------- 4 classes of induvidials------ (1) A Ugghatitannu : an individual who encounters a Buddha in person, and who is capable of attaining the Holy Paths and the Holy Fruits through the mere hearing of a short concise discourse. (2) A Vipancitannu: an individual who encounters a Buddha in person, but who is capable of attaining the Paths and the Fruits only when the short discourse is expounded to him at some length. At the present day, only the following Neyya and Padaparama classes of individuals remain. (3) A Neyya : an individual who needs to study the sermon and the exposition, and then to practise the provisions contained therein for 7 days to 60 years, to attain the Paths and the Fruits during this lifetime if he tries hard with guidance from the right teacher. (4) A Padaparama : is an individual who cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits within this lifetime. can attain release from worldly ills in his next existence if he dies while practising samatha or vipassana and attains rebirth either as a human being or a deva within the present Buddha Sasana. Necessary Conditions of Practice for Neyya and Padaparama Individuals Neyya-puggala An individual of the Neyya class can become a Sotpanna in this present life, if he faithfully practises the bodhipakkhiya-dhamma comprising satipatthana (four Applications of Mindfulness), sammapadhana (Right Exertion), etc. If he is lax in his practice, he can become a Sotapanna only in his next existence after being reborn in the deva planes. If he dies while still aloof from these (bodhipakkhiya-Dhammas) he will become a total loss so far as the present Buddha Sasana is concerned, but he can still attain release from worldly ills if he encounters the Sasana of the next Buddha. Padaparama-puggala An individual of the Padaparama class can attain release only within the present Buddha Sasana after rebirth in the deva planes in his next existence, if he can faithfully practise the bodhipakkhiya- Dhammas in his present existence. .... The Padaparama class of individuals have to accumulate as much of the nuclei or seeds of Parami as they can within this lifetime. http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/individu.htm ----- Which one are you? 325. Bhikkhus, a few are born wise with powers to understand what is taught and to eliminate the not essential. Bhikkhus, in the same manner there are a handful endowed with the noble one's wisdom, the rest are ignorant and lack that wisdom. 328. Bhikkhus, a handful hear the Teaching and bear it in mind, the rest forget it. 329. Bhikkhus,a few hearing the Teaching peruse it, many others do not tarry to think about what they heard. 330. Bhikkhus, a few learn the Teaching and fall to the method of living according to it, many others do not care to do it. 331. Bhikkhus, a few are shaken with religious emotion in a circumstance many others do not stir whatever the circumstance may 335. Bhikkhus, a few find access to the meanings of the Teaching and the bliss of release, others do not experience release. Therefore bhikkhus, you should train to see the meanings in the Teaching to experience the bliss of release. http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara1/1-ekanipata/016-Ekadhammapali-e.html May we all reach Nibbana ASAP! Lots of Metta, Alex #81365 From: TGrand458@... Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:33 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? TGrand458@... Hi James, Dieter I'm pretty sure this must be MN # 1 TG In a message dated 1/18/2008 3:57:03 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, buddhatrue@... writes: Hi Dieter, --- In _dhammastudygroup@dhammastudygdha_ (mailto:dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) , Dieter Möller wrote: > > Hi Rahula ,Alex , James ... > > you wrote: > > >... because I have found one sutta where the monk is not supposed > to "assume" nibbana to be self. < > Can you let us know whic sutta? It would be great if you could post > I quoted that sutta a very long time ago. When I get some time I will try to find it again. Metta, James #81366 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:35 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of the Purification of View V.2 lbidd2 Hi Kel, Another interesting aspect of the insight based on jhana factors is that rupa is an object but not 5-door consciousness. Larry ---------------- Kel: "It seems clear if you read ahead that samatha section is only concerned about 5 rupa and 3 lower arupa jhana consciousness and associated factors thus its defined in 'brief'. Vipassana section specificaly mention 81 mudane consciousness and thus its defined in 'detail'." #81367 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:53 pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? buddhatrue Hi TG and Dieter, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@... wrote: > > > Hi James, Dieter > > I'm pretty sure this must be MN # 1 > > TG Yes, thanks, it is MN 1: WORLDLING: "He perceives Unbinding as Unbinding. Perceiving Unbinding as Unbinding, he conceives things about Unbinding, he conceives things in Unbinding, he conceives things coming out of Unbinding, he conceives Unbinding as 'mine,' he delights in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you. TRAINEE: "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, let him not conceive things about Unbinding, let him not conceive things in Unbinding, let him not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, let him not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' let him not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you. ARAHANT: "He directly knows Unbinding as Unbinding. Directly knowing Unbinding as Unbinding, he does not conceive things about Unbinding, does not conceive things in Unbinding, does not conceive things coming out of Unbinding, does not conceive Unbinding as 'mine,' does not delight in Unbinding. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html Metta, James #81368 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:59 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.1 lbidd2 Hi Sarah, Thanks for the many contributions. Here are a few comments. Sarah: "In other words, there cannot even be the first purification without the development of panna (vipassana). So virtue is developed with right understanding." Larry: Always good to remember this. Sarah: from CMA "Purification of view is the discernment of mind and matter with respect to their characteristics, functions, manifestations, and proximate causes." Larry: This was mentioned with regard to the jhana factors but for reasons I will get into in the next installment it is a little problematic when it comes to the 81 kinds of consciousness. Does one discern rebirth linking which is essentially a function of a kind of consciousness? If so, how so? Sarah: "I'd like to stress that this vipassana wisdom refers to the direct understanding of dhammas and their characteristics through insight, not a thinking/analytical/book knowledge or pariyatti level knowledge." Larry: I agree but "learning and questioning about those things that are the 'soil' ", in other words book knowledge of the abhidhamma, is an important preliminary to insight. Larry #81369 From: "buddhatrue" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:00 pm Subject: 1.Re: [dsg] Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 buddhatrue Hi Alex and Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > We need to remember the times we are in. We no longer have a live > Buddha face to face speaking in his and our native tongue. Being with > the Buddha himself had a very powerful effect on the listener, don't > you think? Yes, this is a very important point. Take for example this sutta: Then the householder Nakulapita, delighting in & approving of the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat and ¡X bowing down to the Blessed One and circumambulating him, keeping him to his right ¡X went to Ven. Sariputta and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, Ven. Sariputta said to him, "Your faculties are clear & calm, householder, your complexion pure. Have you had the opportunity today of listening to a Dhamma talk in the presence of the Blessed One?" "How could it be otherwise, lord? I have just now been sprinkled by the Blessed One with the deathless ambrosia of a Dhamma talk." "And how were you sprinkled by the Blessed One with the deathless ambrosia of a Dhamma talk?" "Just now I went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As I was sitting there I said to him, 'Lord, I am a feeble old man, aged, advanced in years, having come to the last stage of life. I am afflicted in body & ailing with every moment. And it is only rarely that I get to see the Blessed One & the monks who nourish the heart. May the Blessed One teach me, may the Blessed One instruct me, for my long-term benefit & happiness.' "When this was said, the Blessed One said to me, 'So it is, householder. So it is. The body is afflicted, weak, & encumbered. For who, looking after this body, would claim even a moment of true health, except through sheer foolishness? So you should train yourself: "Even though I may be afflicted in body, my mind will be unafflicted." That is how you should train yourself.' That's how I was sprinkled by the Blessed One with the deathless ambrosia of a Dhamma talk." "But why didn't it occur to you to question the Blessed One further: 'In what way is one afflicted in body & afflicted in mind? And in what way is one afflicted in body but unafflicted in mind?' "I would come from a long way away to hear the explication of these words in Ven. Sariputta's presence. It would be good if Ven. Sariputta himself would enlighten me as to their meaning." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.001.than.html James: You see, this elderly householder became calm and happy just from listening to the Dhamma from the Buddha; however, the householder didn't really understand what he just listened to! Sariputta had to explain it to him! It takes more than just listening to penetrate the Dhamma. Metta, James #81370 From: LBIDD@... Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:30 pm Subject: Outline of Purification of View V.3 lbidd2 Hi all, The following is the first of 5 ways of organizing the recognition of nama and rupa, 4 ways "in detail" and 1 way "in brief", for one whose vehicle is pure insight. Vism: But one whose vehicle is pure insight, or that same aforesaid one whose vehicle is serenity, discerns the four elements in brief or in detail in one of various ways given in the chapter on the definition of the four elements (Ch.XI,27ff.). Vism.XI,27: Herein, 'defining' is determining by characterizing individual essences. ... 'Attention given to elements', the meditation subject consisting of elements' and 'defining of the four elements' all mean the same thing. Larry: "discerns the four elements in brief or in detail" consists of finding hardness (earth element) in all the various parts of the body, and the same for the other elements. Two paragraphs detail various ways of counting these manifestations of elements. Vism: ... And when these instances of materiality derived [by clinging] from the primaries have thus become plain in detail in the case of these forty two aspects, another sixty instances of materiality become plain with the physical [heart-] basis and the [five] sense doors, that is, with the heart-basis decad and the five decads beginning with the eye decad. Taking all these together under the characteristic of 'being molested', he sees them as 'materiality'. When he has discerned materiality thus, the immaterial states become plain to him in accordance with the sense doors, that is to say, the eighty-one kinds of mundane consciousness ... and the seven consciousness-concomitants. that is contact, feeling, perception, volition, life, steadiness of consciousness, and attention, which are invariably conascent with all these consciousnesses. ... Taking all these immaterial states together under the characteristic of 'bending', he sees them as 'mentality'. This is how one [meditator] defines mentality-materiality in detail through the method of defining the four elements. Larry: Having defined the elements with a thorough analysis of the body the 81 kinds of mundane consciousness become plain. This is 81 minus any jhana cittas that have not been attained. Regarding "kinds of consciousness", rebirth linking, bhavanga, and death are functions of one kind of consciousness that also functions as investigation and registration. It seems unlikely that anyone will discern rebirth linking, bhavanga, or death consciousness, but one might discern investigation or registration. "Kinds of consciousness" includes kusala and akusala cittas as well as kusala and akusala vipaka cittas. It seems unlikely one would discern all these in one short period. It would more likely happen over a period of days, weeks, months, or years. However, the sense I get from this chapter is that there is a summing up and review of "all this". There is a bringing together of all this knowledge into one understanding: _all_this_ is mentality and materiality. Larry #81371 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 7:35 pm Subject: Re: Is Nibbana a Dhamma? Is Nibbana really Anatta? scottduncan2 Dear James, Sorry for the delay; thanks for the reply: J: "I still don't get you. I guess you are defining "teacher" in some way other than myself. If you read or listen to her, appreciate what she communicates, learn from what she communicates, and form your own ideas based on what she communicates, then she is your teacher (even if you 'consider' her to be or not)." Scott: James, we see this differently. And yes, your definition is not mine. I am not seeking a teacher. The Dhamma is the teacher. If I am doing anything its waiting for understanding and I'm not actually waiting for it, if you catch my drift. But don't mind me... Sincerely, Scott. #81372 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 9:06 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 kenhowardau Hi Phil, --------- <. . .> KH: > > Phil, among others, believes that the Visudhimagga teaches formal samatha practices for beginners. > > Ph: > I would say it doesn't exclude beginners, since it refers to something or other being a suitable practice for the "clansman who is a beginner." --------- I may have misquoted you a little bit, but I think your point has always been that jhana development is not necessarily kusala all the way. I think you (and all other formal meditators) believe that the beginner can get on with formal practices now and allow kusala citta to come later. ---------------------------- Ph: > That's right there in the text, Ken. And the "it was in the Buddha's day so we can't compare ourselves to that kind of understanding" line doesn't work because of course it wasn't in the Buddha's day when Vism was compiled. ---------------------------- Yes, but who is a beginner when it comes to jhana training? I believe jhana is for people with highly developed kusala. Even then, as the texts say, only one in a hundred or one in a thousand of those will make it to the first stage (access concentration). I believe those beginners were able to concentrate on kasinas (etc) with kusala citta. Even so, only a tiny proportion of them were able to attain jhana. I don't think you or I would be qualified to call ourselves beginners in this practice. And the people we know who actually attend so- called meditation retreats to practice jhana would be even less qualified, IMHO. You made some good points in your other posts. I will get back to them a.s.a.p. Ken H #81373 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:20 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of the Purification of View V.2 kelvin_lwin Hi Larry, Yea it only deals with mind-door but rupa is pretty 'obvious' object to analyze in comparison as later sections said on what to do if you can't discern clearly. - Kel > Hi Kel, > > Another interesting aspect of the insight based on jhana factors is that > rupa is an object but not 5-door consciousness. > > Larry > ---------------- > Kel: "It seems clear if you read ahead that samatha section is only > concerned about 5 rupa and 3 lower arupa jhana consciousness and > associated factors thus its defined in 'brief'. Vipassana section > specificaly mention 81 mudane consciousness and thus its defined in > 'detail'." > #81374 From: "kelvin_lwin" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:25 pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of the Purification of View V.2 kelvin_lwin addition: As you know, all objects including rupa can make contact through mind-door. #81375 From: "kenhowardau" Date: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:50 pm Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 kenhowardau Hi Alex, --------------- <. . .> KH: >> As I understand the no-control perspective, formal meditation is > *never* relevant to the 8fold path - not even after there has been a vast amount of pariyatti. > If it is your opinion, then it is your kamma. Without strong meditation you are limiting yourself to Kama-Loka (which includes apaya planes) plus you'll never become an Anagamin without mastering Bhavana. Furthermore without Jhanas, you'll NEVER remove inner defilements. ""I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... -------------------- Thanks for all the quotes, Alex, but we understand them differently. Often, it is essential to know to whom a particular sutta was addressed. Some audiences consisted of jhana meditators and some did not. I think you may have picked out a few of the former variety. I must admit, many suttas - perhaps most - refer to jhana meditators and sometimes to jhana masters, but not all. ------------------------------ A: > There's no jhana for one with no discernment, no discernment for one with no jhana. But one with both jhana & discernment: he's on the vergeof Unbinding. — Dhp 372 -------------------------------- This is an old faithful that keeps cropping up at DSG. You can read about it and similar quotes in Useful Posts under 'Jhana - two meanings.' To save you the trouble I'll reprint an explanation given recently by Nina (message #72597): "Hi Howard, my translation has: is in the presence of nibbaana. I think that this refers to lokuttara citta that experiences nibbaana and is accompanied by right view, right concentration and the other factors which are then lokuttara. There is the pair: serenity and insight. Concentration has the strength at least equal to that accompanying the jhanacitta of the first stage . This also goes for dry insight workers. Calm with the lokuttaracitta is higher then calm with mundane jhana since lokuttara pa~n~naa eradicates defielments and jhanacitta subdues defilements only temporarily. Nina. Op 21-mei-2007, om 14:11 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > And then, finally, Nina, I leave you with the > following from the Dhammapada, which I think is rather clear: > ______________________________ > 372. There is no meditative concentration for him who lacks > insight, and no > insight for him who lacks meditative concentration. He in whom are > found both > meditative concentration and insight, indeed, is close to Nibbana." (end quote) ------------------ <. . . .> A: > What you are saying is damaging to youself and others. ------------------ I suppose that will be true if your interpretations are right. But if my interpretations are right then it is you who are doing the damage. :-) It might be better if we don't get personal, and simply discuss the Dhamma to the best of our [limited] understanding. ----------------------- A: > "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.025.than.html --------------------- Thanks for that. Mike quoted the same sutta years ago, and I have often wanted to find it again. The translation given by Mike went something like, "a discourse that needs further explanation" rather than "a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred." I don't know what 'inferred' would mean in this context, but, in my experience, almost every sutta requires 'further explanation.' I cringe whenever I see other DSG members quoting suttas as if the meaning were obvious. Their interpretations are always an uninstructed worldling's Dhamma rather than the Buddha's Dhamma. :-) --------------------- <. . .> KH: > The development of jhana requires the kind of panna that knows kusala from akusala. Very few people know the difference between kusala and akusala. >> A: > It is their problem. Eventually they will understand it. It is not the fault of Samma-Samadhi. --------------------- This is a silly line of argument, Alex. You don't have a monopoly on samma-samadhi. We both believe in it. I believe samma-samadhi is a conditioned dhamma, while you believe it is a conventional course of action. That is our point of contention. No one is saying samma- samadhi is a bad thing. ---------------------------- A: > Besides, when you meditate properly, thenyou will start to intuitively understand more ----------------------------- Don't just say that; tell me where the Buddha taught a formal form of meditation. That is, tell me where he described vipassana as something other than a moment of conditioned dhammas - beyond anyone's control. This reminds me of Suan who, as you may know, is very well versed in the Tipitaka. He has promised to show us where the texts refer to formal vipassana meditation. So far, nothing has resulted. If Suan cannot do it I doubt you (or anyone) can. I could go further and ask you to show me where the Buddha taught that *any* conventional reality had ultimate efficacy. You can't do it. No one can. -------------------- KH: > > the finer differences (between mild akusala and genuine kusala)? And > yet such knowledge is, I believe, a prerequisite for a beginner in > jhana development. >>>> A: > It seems that you are talking a non issue here. Atleast 5, preferebly more, precepts are required for successful cultivation of Jhana. Any real Buddhist knows these 5. --------------- Jhana meditation is not a matter of mere precept keeping. It precludes *all* forms of akusala. The subtle pleasure we derive from sitting in a padded chair (for example) is akusala. It is enough to destroy a jhana meditator's attainment. So, in the case of jhana development we are talking about really, really strict morality - much stricter than is required for precept keeping. (Much stricter than is required for satipatthana, too.) ----------------- <. . .> A: > No kidding Sherlock. It is NOT a ritual! Do you think that every meditator is a dummy for whom Jhana meditation is on the same level as lighting candles? ---------------- No one is being called a dummy. Until we can understand the 'momentary' (nama and rupa) explanation of reality wrong understanding of the Dhamma is inevitable. We will always see it as a list of things to do. 'Things to do' exist in the illusory world that is known to fools and wise men alike. Conditioned dhammas exist in the ultimately real world that is known only to the wise. -------------- <. . .> A: > You were very disrespectful to Buddha Dhamma and you have hurt my feelings which I have for Buddha-Dhamma. -------------- I know how you feel, and I think this sort of thing is inevitable. The formal meditators' view of the Dhamma is, to my mind, an insult to the Dhamma. It slanders it. But I don't take this personally. Whatever happens, there are really only dhammas. Ken H #81376 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:16 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 philofillet Hi Ken > I may have misquoted you a little bit, but I think your point has > always been that jhana development is not necessarily kusala all the > way. I think you (and all other formal meditators) believe that the > beginner can get on with formal practices now and allow kusala citta > to come later. I'm really not the one to discuss meditation with. My comments to you yesterday were just to point out some things in Vism and I will let them speak for themselves, I think. As I was saying to Sarah the other day, I am well aware of the shortcomings in my approach but I find it very helpful in giving me a little resilience to objects. Lots and lots of attachment to the meditation object in a very new agey way. At some point I am going to look more deeply into a proper application of a meditation method, probably Ajahn Lee's approach, but not now. So please direct any discussion on this topic to the serious, ambitious meditators in the group. I think you know who they are. Thanks Ken. Metta, Phil #81377 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:20 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) philofillet Hi Nina > This shows that classifications are not rigid, they are there just to > help people. > The same about the perfections. We should not think of rigid > classifications, then we lose the essence. O.K, fair enough, thanks. Metta, Phil #81378 From: han tun Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:02 am Subject: Perfections Corner (76) hantun1 Dear All, This is the presentation in installment of The Perfections Leading to Enlightenment by Ajahn Sujin Boriharnwanaket; and translated by Nina van Gorkom. http://www.zolag.co.uk/ - Chapter 6: The Perfection of Patience (continuation) Khanti is endurance and restraint with regard to akusala citta which arises. If sati-sampaja~n~na arises, the perfection of patience will become more refined. We need patience and endurance, because akusala citta arises often in daily life. Patience in our daily life is “adhivaasanaa khanti”. The Paali word adhivasati means to inhabit (vaaso is habitation), and adhivaasanaa khanti is acceptance and endurance with regard to our living conditions, our environment, the place where we live, thus, the dhamma of each moment. This can be, for example, a change of temperature which may be hot or cold. If sati-sampaja~n~na does not arise, we may say, “It is very hot”, and then akusala citta is likely to have arisen already. If sati-sampaja~n~na has become more refined, we can find out whether our patience in action and speech with regard to our environment is deficient or whether it has grown and developed. Khanti paaramí, the perfection of patience, can develop when sati-sampaja~n~na arises and knows the characteristic of the citta at that moment. If sati-sampaja~n~na is aware of akusala citta there are conditions for the arising of kusala citta instead. A person may be in the habit of complaining, or of being bad-tempered, but if sati-sampaja~n~na arises he can refrain from akusala and thus, the perfection of patience can further develop. In daily life we need a great deal of patience, because apart from endurance with regard to our environment or living conditions, we have to be patient and tolerant towards people with different characters and habits. People who are in the habit of doing everything quickly should be patient with people who are slow in their actions. We may meet someone who is of contrarious behaviour, but we should be patient and tolerant towards him and not complain about him. If sati-sampaja~n~na arises there are conditions to refrain from criticizing or blaming such a person, to have mettaa and give him guidance, support and advice at the appropriate occasion. Thus we see that the perfection of khanti should not be lacking in our daily life. To be continued. Han #81379 From: "pannabahulo" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:15 am Subject: Full bodied determinism? pannabahulo My dear Dhamma friends, Everything arises because of conditions. Right…..got it. So that every thought is the product of conditioned cittas. And the wholesome or unwholesome cittas that arise depend also on `accumulations' which are also one aspect of conditions as such. There is also no self but only phenomena arising because of conditions. So whether or not a particular set of aggregates becomes an arahant or a mass murderer depends only on conditions and their characteristics of which one aspect is accumulations. Whether or not this bundle of aggregates sees visible objects with insight or delusion depends on conditions. These arise by themselves because there is no "I" present which can change or alter things. Whether or not I study Abhidhamma or not is not a decision "I" can make; there is no "I" to decide one way or another. Thus "our" lives are completely determined and "we" are hopelessly afloat on the sea of Samsara. All "we" can do is……..well what? The Lord Buddha's struggle for – and attainment of – enlightenment was entirely due to determining conditions which were entirely outside of "his" control as there was no self to attain or achieve anything. "We" are all merely empty puppets continually at the mercy of `accumulations' and other conditions. To me this is nothing short of full bodied determinism. Can anyone make sense of all this and paint a brighter picture of ultimate reality? With metta and every blessing (conditioned of course), Pannabahulo (dependent on conditions and void of free will) #81380 From: "Phil" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:23 am Subject: Re: Full bodied determinism? philofillet Dear Venerable Pannabahulo >"We" are all merely empty puppets continually at the mercy > of `accumulations' and other conditions. > To me this is nothing short of full bodied determinism. > Can anyone make sense of all this and paint a brighter picture of > ultimate reality? > With metta and every blessing (conditioned of course), > > Pannabahulo (dependent on conditions and void of free will) As for the brighter picture, I think we can feel encouraged by reflecting on how very rare human birth is, and how rare it is that people who are born in the human realm are responsive to the Buddha's teaching. Also, I get very encouraged when reflecting on the sutta in Anguttara Nikaya that states in utterly clear terms that when re abstain from breaking the precepts we give protection to immeasurable beings, and by doing so receive the same, in this world and the "world to come." Perhaps this is a very immature approach to Dhamma, but I never fail these days to be encouraged by it. Metta, Phil #81381 From: "Sukinder" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:53 am Subject: Re: Full bodied determinism? sukinderpal Dear Ven. Pannabahulo, Just came back home and saw this very eye-catching subject heading. ;-) ================= Ven P: anything. "We" are all merely empty puppets continually at the mercy of `accumulations' and other conditions. To me this is nothing short of full bodied determinism. Can anyone make sense of all this and paint a brighter picture of ultimate reality? Sukin: The past has gone, the future has not arrived yet and the present moment has already arisen and fallen away. This is the understanding behind the idea of no-control. To be able to see this does not give rise to a feeling of hopelessness, on the contrary, that we are forever caught in thoughts about the past and future and these bring with them all the unnecessary `tenseness' of samsara, such `seeing' conditions a sense of release. Not only this, there being also some understanding of what is and what is not the path, one naturally inclines towards the former and gets a taste of freedom from the latter. Don't you agree that `hope' is exactly due to the kind of concern about the future based on the past? I've yet to read your mail carefully, but thought that I should immediately send a response. ;-) With respect, Sukin #81382 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:59 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 truth_aerator Dear Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > I may have misquoted you a little bit, but I think your point has > always been that jhana development is not necessarily kusala all the way. I think you (and all other formal meditators) believe that the beginner can get on with formal practices now and allow kusala citta to come later. >>>> Jhana (in Samma-Samadhi) as defined by the Buddha is ALWAYS kusala. However what you do AFTER you come out of it, that varies. It can be akusala (ex: devadatta using magick powers for harm) or kusala (ex: using jhanic state to turn to Nibbana). >>>> > Yes, but who is a beginner when it comes to jhana training? >>> I am a beginner!!! >>>> I believe jhana is for people with highly developed kusala. >>>> Generally, yes. However there are exceptions: Devadatta. >>>> Even then, as the texts say, only one in a hundred or one in a thousand of those will make it to the first stage (access concentration). >>>> I don't believe the above. I did, and believe me I am far from being a super man. I have many bad qualities myself, although Devadatta was much worse. > I believe those beginners were able to concentrate on kasinas (etc) > with kusala citta. Even so, only a tiny proportion of them were able to attain jhana. >>> Again, just DO It. > > I don't think you or I would be qualified to call ourselves beginners > in this practice. And the people we know who actually attend so- > called meditation retreats to practice jhana would be even less > qualified, IMHO. >>>> Explain please. Lots of Metta, Alex #81383 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:14 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 upasaka_howard Hi, Ken (and Phil) - In a message dated 1/19/2008 12:06:40 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@... writes to Phil: I may have misquoted you a little bit, but I think your point has always been that jhana development is not necessarily kusala all the way. I think you (and all other formal meditators) believe that the beginner can get on with formal practices now and allow kusala citta to come later. ================================== I find it hard to understand why you would think that, Ken. I know of no serious Buddhist practitioner who does not begin by studying the Dhamma (and continues with that), and who does not understand that study & contemplation, and sila, and mindfulfulness in daily life, and the 4 right efforts are requisite preparation (and ongoing support) for meditation and for all cultivation of calm and wisdom. Anyone who meditates knows in particular that unless one's sila is at a high level, the rest of one's practice, most especially meditation, suffers greatly. You are trying to burn down a straw man, Ken. With metta, Howard P. S. Though I meditate every day and see it to be of critical importance, it is percentage-wise the least part of my practice. At least 80% of my practice consists of the other items I mentioned above. Were I to eliminate the meditation, though, the whole practice would dry up and wither, because the states of calm and clarity entered while meditating - and it is of no concern to me whether they are officially jhana or not - are like streams that refresh the mind and that water and sustain the entire practice. P. P. S. I never speak of "formal" meditation any more than I speak of "formal" standing, reclining, conversing, retiring for sleep, or studying. The word 'formal' adds nothing. #81384 From: "L G SAGE" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:33 am Subject: Theriigaathaa - Sisters (73) nichiconn Dear Friends, Part 17 16. Mahaanipaato 1. Sumedhaatheriigaathaava.n.nanaa 515. "Adhigatamida.m bahuuhi, amata.m ajjaapi ca labhaniiyamida.m; yo yoniso payu~njati, na ca sakkaa agha.tamaanena. 516. "Eva.m bha.nati sumedhaa, sa"nkhaaragate rati.m alabhamaanaa; anunentii anikaratta.m, kese ca chama.m khipi sumedhaa. 517. "U.t.thaaya anikaratto, pa~njaliko yaacatassaa pitara.m so; vissajjetha sumedha.m, pabbajitu.m vimokkhasaccadassaa. 518. "Vissajjitaa maataapituuhi, pabbaji sokabhayabhiitaa; cha abhi~n~naa sacchikataa, aggaphala.m sikkhamaanaaya. 519. "Acchariyamabbhuta.m ta.m, nibbaana.m aasi raajaka~n~naaya; pubbenivaasacarita.m, yathaa byaakari pacchime kaale. 513. "This undying has been attained by many, and this is to be obtained even today [by one] who rightly applies himself. But it cannot [be attained] by one who does not strive." 514. So Sumedhaa spoke, not obtaining delight in the formations. And conciliating Anikaratta, Sumedhaa threw her hair on the ground. 515. Standing up, Anikaratta, with cupped hands, requested her father, "Let Sumedhaa go, in order to go forth. [She will be] one with insight into the truths of liberation." 516. Allowed to go by her mother and father, she went forth, frightened by grief and fear. She realized the six supernormal powers [and] the highest fruition state as a trainee. 517. Marvellous, amazing was that quenching of the princess as she explained at that last moment her activities in her former habitations: RD: To THIS, the Path Ambrosial, have gone Full many. And to-day, e'en now 'tis to be won. But only by a life that's utterly Surrendered in devotion. Labour not, And ye shall not attain!' Thus Sumedhaa (513) Ended her say, who found no joy in all Activities that lead from life to life, And, to Anikaratta thus her mind Declaring, dropped her tresses on the floor. (514) Then up he rose with outstretched folded hands, And with her father pleaded for her thus: 'O suffer Sumedhaa to leave the world, That she may see the Truth and Liberty!' (515) The parents suffered her, and forth she went, Afeared to stay and build up fear and grief. Six branches of Insight she realized, As learner, winning to the Topmost Fruit. (516) O wondrous this! O marvellous in sooth! Nibbaana for the daughter of a king! Her state and conduct in her former births, E'en as she told in her last life were these: (517) .. to be continued, connie #81385 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:35 am Subject: Re: Pariyatti vs patipatti - take 3,853 truth_aerator Dear Ken, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Alex, > > Thanks for all the quotes, Alex, but we understand them differently. Often, it is essential to know to whom a particular sutta was addressed. Some audiences consisted of jhana meditators and some did not. I think you may have picked out a few of the former variety. I > must admit, many suttas - perhaps most - refer to jhana meditators > and sometimes to jhana masters, but not all. >>>> To start with, Jhana is required for ALL types of people. It is that some need only 1st Jhana to reach Arahatship. Even the so called "dry insighters" still attain Jhanas. RE: Dhp 372. Again you brought a non-issue. In Buddhism Jhana involves panna and trying to turn to Nibbana. See AN9.36 (among many other suttas) which I am quoting so often. You think that every meditator who does Jhana only does it for Bliss. NO! Some meditators do it to remove defilements forever! > ------------------ > <. . . .> > A: > What you are saying is damaging to youself and others. > ------------------ > > I suppose that will be true if your interpretations are right. But if > my interpretations are right then it is you who are doing the > damage. :-) It might be better if we don't get personal, and simply > discuss the Dhamma to the best of our [limited] understanding. >>>> I try to go as literal as possible with precise instructions, thus avoiding personal biases. I am open to various interpretations. > ----------------------- > A: > > "Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a > discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has > already been fully drawn out. And he who explains a discourse whose > meaning has already been fully drawn out as one whose meaning needs > to be inferred. These are two who slander the Tathagata." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an02/an02.025.than.html > --------------------- > > Thanks for that. Mike quoted the same sutta years ago, and I have > often wanted to find it again. The translation given by Mike went > something like, "a discourse that needs further explanation" rather > than "a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred." I don't know > what 'inferred' would mean in this context, but, in my experience, > almost every sutta requires 'further explanation.' I cringe whenever I see other DSG members quoting suttas as if the meaning were obvious. >>> Their interpretations are always an uninstructed worldling's > Dhamma rather than the Buddha's Dhamma. :-) >>> First of all, you are making a sweeping generalization, forgeting that there may be exceptions. 2nd) Are you telepathic? > > --------------------- > <. . .> > KH: > The development of jhana requires the kind of panna that knows > kusala from akusala. Very few people know the difference between > kusala and akusala. > >> > > A: > It is their problem. Eventually they will understand it. It is > not the fault of Samma-Samadhi. > --------------------- > > This is a silly line of argument, Alex. You don't have a monopoly on > samma-samadhi. We both believe in it. I believe samma-samadhi is a > conditioned dhamma, while you believe it is a conventional course of action. That is our point of contention. No one is saying samma- > samadhi is a bad thing. > ---------------------------- You are trying to be telepathic here and you have failed. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT SAMMA-SAMADHI IS UNCONDITIONED, it IS conditioned see Upanisa Sutta. All levels of meditation are conditioned. When you talk about "you believe it is a conventional course of action" you are are misinterpreting my words which HAVE TO BE conventional using formal grammar and such. If instead of saying "I, me, mine, sitting, walking, crosslegged, etc" I would list all the cittas/cetasikas/nama/rupa/blah blah then a single paragraph would take 100000 pages and its meaning would definately be obscured. I take it for granted that we I use pronouns and verbs, you do not misinterpret them as ATTA, etc. >>>> > A: > Besides, when you meditate properly, thenyou will start to > intuitively understand more > ----------------------------- > > Don't just say that; tell me where the Buddha taught a formal form of meditation. That is, tell me where he described vipassana as > something other than a moment of conditioned dhammas - beyond > anyone's control. >>>>> 1st) Define what you mean by "Formal" 2nd) I am not claiming and have NEVER claimed that meditation is unconditioned. IT IS CONDITIONED and one of the conditions is viriya & samma-ditthi. > This reminds me of Suan who, as you may know, is very well versed in the Tipitaka. He has promised to show us where the texts refer to > formal vipassana meditation. So far, nothing has resulted. If Suan > cannot do it I doubt you (or anyone) can. >>>> I came here recently. I do NOT know him. >>>> > I could go further and ask you to show me where the Buddha taught > that *any* conventional reality had ultimate efficacy. You can't do > it. No one can. >>>> Again you have brought a non-issue. Possibly a red herring logical fallacy. a) Exactly what do you mean by "conventional reality" ? Of course conventional reality is convential. b) Of course any meditation or factor of N8P is not ultimate and isn't unconditioned. However it does lead to Unconditioned. c) Conventional and conditioned action leads to (but never creates) Nibbana which is unconditional. > -------------------- > Jhana meditation is not a matter of mere precept keeping. >>>> True. I never said that it is only precept keeping. Precept keeping HELPS and provides a solid base to work from, but more is required. >>>>>>>>> It precludes *all* forms of akusala. >>> What about Devadatta? He had lots of akusala in him... >>> The subtle pleasure we derive from sitting in a padded chair (for example) is akusala. It is enough to destroy a jhana meditator's attainment. >>>>> By this pleasure are you refering to "Sukha" , "piti" or what? 9. ..."One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself"..."Here bhikkhus, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enter upon and resides in the first (absorption) jhana"... (through 4th jhana). "This is called the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment. I say of this kind of pleasure that it should be pursued, that it should be developed, that it should be cultivated, and that it should not be feared." "So it was in reference to this that I said, 'One should know how to define pleasure, and knowing that, one should pursue pleasure within oneself." 13. Here, bhikkhus, the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of enlightenment, is a state without suffering (dukkha)... and it is the right way. Therefore this is a state without conflict." (Majjhima Nikaya trans. Bhikkhus Nanamoli & Bodhi, Wisdom, 1995) Jhanasamyutta, SN 9.53 "Bhikkhus, just as the River Ganges slants, slopes and inclines toward the East, so too a bhikkhu who develops and cultivates the four absorptions (jhanas) slants, slopes, and inclines toward nibbana." (Samyutta Nikaya tans. Bhikkhu Bodhi, Wisdom, 2000 >>>> So, in the case of jhana development we are talking about really, really strict morality - much stricter than is required for precept keeping. (Much stricter than is required for satipatthana, too.) >>>> Devadatta! > ----------------- > No one is being called a dummy. Until we can understand > the 'momentary' (nama and rupa) explanation of reality wrong > understanding of the Dhamma is inevitable. >>>> Read Ditthi-Samyutta for example. Cravi We will always see it as a > list of things to do. 'Things to do' exist in the illusory world that is known to fools and wise men alike. >>>> How is "illusory world" is known to fools and wise men ALIKE? >>> Conditioned dhammas exist in the ultimately real world that is known only to the wise. >>>> Above you have said that "'Things to do' exist in the illusory world that is known to fools and wise men alike." and here you are saying that only the wise see conditioned dhammas in the ultimately real world. Look, a wise person would never claim about "ultimately real world" because that is a dependently arisen perception! Every thing is Anicca-Dukha-Anatta thus making it to be incompatible with "Ultimately real world" which is close to Brahmanic "Atman" or "Brahman" (or whatever.) Brahman: supreme consciousness, absolute reality. ayurveda-foryou.com/yoga/yogaglossary.html In Vedic philosophy, the absolute Reality or all-pervasive supreme Principle of the universe. www.siddhayoga.org.in/glossary.html the primary subject matter of the Upanishads, the very essence or principle of ultimate reality; the Absolute; the uncreated creator. Brahman is the neuter, or impersonal, form of Brahma. staff.jccc.net/thoare/glossary.htm the Absolute Reality, Existence-Consciousness-Bliss Absolute; the Supreme Reality that is one and indivisible, infinite and eternal; all-pervading, changeless Existence www.swami-krishnananda.org/maha/maha_glo.html (BRAAH man) - A major Hindu concept of God which emerged during the Vedic Age (1000-600 BCE). The Brahman is the Absolute, the Ultimate Reality, or the World Soul. gbgm-umc.org/missionstudies/indiapakistan/glossary.html Lots of Metta, In Dhamma, Alex #81386 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 5:57 am Subject: Re: Full bodied determinism? truth_aerator Dear Bhante, Please follow Noble 8fold path to the fullest and become an Arahant (if not the Buddha). I hope this will condition you to do it! :) Seriously, whatever may be , please do the most that can be done to become fully Enlightened. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "pannabahulo" wrote: > > Everything arises because of conditions. Right…..got it. So that > every thought is the product of conditioned cittas. And the wholesome > or unwholesome cittas that arise depend also on `accumulations' which > are also one aspect of conditions as such. > There is also no self but only phenomena arising because of > conditions. > So whether or not a particular set of aggregates becomes an arahant > or a mass murderer depends only on conditions and their > characteristics of which one aspect is accumulations. >>> This is a very conviniet philosophy for being lazy and not doing anything. It is very similiar to this -> -------- "...a certain teacher upholds this view and declares it. Beings are made impure for no cause or reason, and purified for no cause or reason. !!!!There is no strength, no effort, no manly power, no manly courage, all beings, all living things, all born, are led to maturity and are born in the higher six and experience pleasantness and unpleasantness!!! Here, Sandaka a wise man reflects, this good teacher upholds this view and declares that beings are defiled--- experience pleasantness and unpleasantness. If the words of these teachers are true, here I should not do, anything. I should not live the holy life. My teacher and I we both become equal in our recluseship, I who do not believe it. We both will be purified without a reason Unnecessarily these good teachers led a holy life.. As for me, I lived surrounded by wife and children, enjoyed wearing Kashmire clothes, bearing flowers and scents, and earning gold and silver. After death, I become equal with these good teachers. Knowing what and seeing what should I lead the holy life under these teachers. He knowing this is not a holy life turns away from it. Sandaka, this is the third holy life the Blessed One who knows and sees, is perfect and rightfully enlightened has declared should not be lived, which the wise man if possible does not live, and even if he lives is not convinced that it is merit. http://www.budsas.org/ebud/majjhima/076-sandaka-e1.htm >>>> "We" are all merely empty puppets continually at the mercy > of `accumulations' and other conditions. To me this is nothing short of full bodied determinism. Can anyone make sense of all this and paint a brighter picture of ultimate reality? > With metta and every blessing (conditioned of course), > > Pannabahulo (dependent on conditions and void of free will) >>>>> See above quote from the sutta MN76. Buddha didn't teach this determinism, this is Mara sneaking in. The point is: "Buddha points the way, you have to walk it". If there were "no free will" then there would be no reason to do this or that. This is what Buddha refuted and I agree with the Buddha. Lots of Metta, Alex #81387 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:14 am Subject: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear friends, We read in the suttas that the Buddha spoke about energy or effort which should be exerted in order to understand the four noble Truths. We may wonder whether we should make an effort to develop right understanding. As soon as we think of effort, we cling, unknowingly, to the idea of “my effort”. Wrong view of self is bound to arise, even though we know in theory that effort is a conditioned nåma. We do not detect this easily, we need a good friend in Dhamma to remind us. I am very grateful to Acharn Sujin to point out to us time and again that we are always lured by attachment, that we are unknowingly overwhelmed by it. We read in the Commentary to the “Cariyåpitaka” (translated by the Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi) about the Perfections which the Bodhisatta developed for aeons. We read about the perfection of energy: “Energy devoid of wisdom does not accomplish the purpose desired since it is wrongly aroused, and it is better not to arouse energy at all than to arouse it in the wrong way. But when energy is conjoined with wisdom, there is nothing it cannot accomplish, if equipped with the proper means...” Each kusala citta is accompanied by the cetasika of effort or viriya, and this cetasika is also kusala. Thus, at such a moment there is no indolence. When kusala citta with right understanding arises there is right effort already, because of the appropriate conditions, and there is no need to think of effort or control. Some people wonder why Acharn Sujin is often speaking about lobha, attachment. Clinging is the second noble Truth, the Truth of the origin of dukkha. This includes all shades of attachment and clinging, including clinging to the wrong view of self. We have to know the second noble Truth at this moment. Clinging can only be eliminated by understanding more clearly the characteristic of lobha when it appears. It can be known as just a conditioned dhamma, and at such a moment we do not have the wrong view of “my clinging”. It is difficult directly to know akusala cetasikas (akusala mental factors accompanying citta) and sobhana (beautiful) cetasikas, but understanding can begin to develop. However, we should not forget that the first stage of insight is knowing nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa, distinguishing their different characteristics. At that stage there cannot be clear understanding yet of lobha, dosa or any other akusala cetasika. We may notice them but we are bound to take them for self. Citta and cetasikas are nåma, they experience an object and they are different from rúpa. Citta merely cognizes an object, and the akusala cetasikas that accompany citta cause it to be impure. Gradually, understanding can be developed of citta as the dhamma that knows an object, and later on paññå can understand the characteristics of lobha and dosa more precisely as nåma, conditioned dhammas. When we doubt whether the citta that arises is kusala citta or akusala citta and when we worry about it, understanding is not being developed at that moment. ***** Nina. #81388 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:25 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Full bodied determinism? upasaka_howard Hi, Bhante - In a message dated 1/19/2008 6:16:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, pannabahulo@... writes: My dear Dhamma friends, Everything arises because of conditions. Right…..got it. So that every thought is the product of conditioned cittas. And the wholesome or unwholesome cittas that arise depend also on `accumulations' which are also one aspect of conditions as such. There is also no self but only phenomena arising because of conditions. So whether or not a particular set of aggregates becomes an arahant or a mass murderer depends only on conditions and their characteristics of which one aspect is accumulations. Whether or not this bundle of aggregates sees visible objects with insight or delusion depends on conditions. These arise by themselves because there is no "I" present which can change or alter things. Whether or not I study Abhidhamma or not is not a decision "I" can make; there is no "I" to decide one way or another. Thus "our" lives are completely determined and "we" are hopelessly afloat on the sea of Samsara. All "we" can do is……..well what? The Lord Buddha's struggle for – and attainment of – enlightenment was entirely due to determining conditions which were entirely outside of "his" control as there was no self to attain or achieve anything. "We" are all merely empty puppets continually at the mercy of `accumulations' and other conditions. To me this is nothing short of full bodied determinism. Can anyone make sense of all this and paint a brighter picture of ultimate reality? With metta and every blessing (conditioned of course), Pannabahulo (dependent on conditions and void of free will) ============================== What we refer to as "us acting" is a collection of mental and physical event-conditions. But so what? These *do* occur. And among them are willing, determination, effort, and so on. I think it might be useful to use chemistry and physics to make an analogy: From the perspective of chemists and physicists, there is no table, per se, but only an aggregate of interrelated molecules of various sorts. And, again for them, there really are no molecules, per se, but only aggregates of interrelated atoms. And, again for them, there really are no atoms, per se, but only nuclei consisting of protons & neutrons revolved about by electrons in orbits. And, again for them, there really are no individual electrons in an atom, but only a probabilistic electron cloud, and the protons & neutrons actually dissolve into subatomic ghosts called quarks and muons, and these in turn reduce only to wispy "strings". And yet the chemists and physicists remain happy in holding their meetings sitting around imagined tables! ;-)) If an approach to Dhamma leads to the thought that nothing can be accomplished and leads to distress, that approach is wrong, Sir. The fact that water is H2O doesn't make water disappear, but merely determines how water acts and is perceived. And that our conventional actions reduce to interrelated multitudes of namas and rupas doesn't make the actions nothing at all. In fact, it simply clarifies their nature. The reality of anatta & su~n~nata determines a middle way and not a species of nihilism. With metta, Howard #81389 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:26 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.1 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 19-jan-2008, om 1:59 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Sarah: "I'd like to stress that this vipassana wisdom refers to the > direct > understanding of dhammas and their characteristics through insight, > not > a thinking/analytical/book knowledge or pariyatti level knowledge." > > Larry: I agree but "learning and questioning about those things > that are > the 'soil' ", in other words book knowledge of the abhidhamma, is an > important preliminary to insight. -------- N: Larry, you mention book knowledge of the abhidhamma, but actually, we learn and at the same time consider realities such as seeing, hearing, etc. We learn from books but, at the same time, we already verify and consider the dhammas occurring in our life. I would say, this can be right from the beginning when learning from books. There is a combination, always. That is why I would not use the expression 'book knowledge of the abhidhamma', or use the word technical in relation to the abhidhamma. Nina. #81390 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:33 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. truth_aerator Dear Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > We read in the suttas that the Buddha spoke about energy or effort > which should be exerted in order to understand the four noble Truths. We may wonder whether we should make an effort to develop right understanding. >>> As you all well know (I hope) there is a difference between Tanha, and (samma-vayamo). "And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds, & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn45/sn45.008.than.html As soon as we think of effort, we cling, unknowingly, > to the idea of "my effort". Wrong view of self is bound to arise, > even though we know in theory that effort is a conditioned nåma. We do not detect this easily, we need a good friend in Dhamma to remind > us. I am very grateful to Acharn Sujin to point out to us time and > again that we are always lured by attachment, that we are unknowingly > overwhelmed by it. > We read in the Commentary to the "Cariyåpitaka" (translated by the > Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi) about the Perfections which the Bodhisatta > developed for aeons. We read about the perfection of energy: > > "Energy devoid of wisdom does not accomplish the purpose desired > since it is wrongly aroused, and it is better not to arouse energy at all than to arouse it in the wrong way. But when energy is conjoined with wisdom, there is nothing it cannot accomplish, if equipped with the proper means..." >>> No Kidding! Read the suttas and have yoniso manasikara. >>> Clinging is the second noble Truth, the Truth of the origin of dukkha This includes all shades of attachment >>> Tanha actually. Clinging (upadana) comes after Tanha. § 17. "Now what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming... And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving." — DN 22 >>>> > . This includes all shades of attachment and > clinging, including clinging to the wrong view of self. >>> All views of self. Including "AM I NOT?" -mn2 Lots of Metta, Alex #81391 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:59 am Subject: Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for this post: N: "We read in the Commentary to the Cariyaapitaka (translated by the Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi) about the Perfections which the Bodhisatta developed for aeons. We read about the perfection of energy: Energy devoid of wisdom does not accomplish the purpose desired since it is wrongly aroused, and it is better not to arouse energy at all than to arouse it in the wrong way. But when energy is conjoined with wisdom, there is nothing it cannot accomplish, if equipped with the proper means..." Scott: I'm still into the Ariyapariyesanaa Sutta, and was reading how, prior to embarking on his course of harsh asceticism, the Buddha arrived at Senaanigama near Uruvelaa and said: "'This will serve for the striving of a clansmen intent on striving.' And I sat there thinking: 'This will serve for striving.'" [Ala.m vatida.m kulaputtassa padhaanatthikassa padhaanaayaa"ti.So kho aha.m bhikkhave tattheva nisiidi.m " alamida.m padhaanaayaa"ti.] Scott: The Buddha's striving in this case lead to a dead end. How does 'padhaana' relate to the above? [PTS PED: "Padhaana (nt.) [fr. pa+dhaa, cp. padahati] exertion, ener- getic effort, striving, concentration of mind; Padahati [pa+dhaa] 1. to strive, exert...2. to confront, take up, fight against, stand..."] Sincerely, Scott. #81392 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:09 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. nilovg Dear Scott, Op 19-jan-2008, om 15:59 heeft Scott Duncan het volgende geschreven: > Scott: The Buddha's striving in this case lead to a dead end. How > does 'padhaana' relate to the above? ------ N: It was not the striving of the Middle Way. So it led to a dead end. There are the four right efforts of the Middle way. These go together with right understanding. Without right understanding of nama and rupa there could not be the four right efforts, striving would not be balanced. Nina. #81393 From: "Scott Duncan" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:19 am Subject: [dsg] Re: Lessons in Detachment, Ch 5, no 2. scottduncan2 Dear Nina, Thanks for the reply: N: "It was not the striving of the Middle Way. So it led to a dead end. There are the four right efforts of the Middle way. These go together with right understanding. Without right understanding of nama and rupa there could not be the four right efforts, striving would not be balanced." Scott: So this was not samma-padhaana. Is 'striving' a function of 'energy' (viriyaa cetasika)? Is it a synonym? Do you think the Buddha's decision to strive is to be understood as being his conscious decision to willfully direct his effort? Or was it a case of wrong striving arising and leading to the behaviour described? Sincerely, Scott. #81394 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Full bodied determinism? nilovg Venerable bhikkhu Pannabahulo, Op 19-jan-2008, om 12:15 heeft pannabahulo het volgende geschreven: > The Lord Buddha's struggle for – and attainment of – enlightenment > was entirely due to determining conditions which were entirely > outside of "his" control as there was no self to attain or achieve > anything. "We" are all merely empty puppets continually at the mercy > of `accumulations' and other conditions. > To me this is nothing short of full bodied determinism. ------- N: We are because of ignorance already in the cycle of birth and death, going from one life to another. This is a fact. However, we should be grateful to have come across the Dhamma, so that we can listen to the Buddha and develop understanding leading to the eradication of ignorance and all defilements. Then there will be freedom from the dukkha of samsara. It is of no use to ask oneself: if everything is conditioned we are a hopeless victim of our accumulations. This is reasoning and it is not helpful. As Sukin said, the past has gone, the future has not arrived yet.. We should rather understand the present moment: there is seeing arising because of conditions, but no self who sees. We did not create seeing, it arises because of eyesense and visible object. Hearing is another citta, arising because of earsense and sound. attachment or aversion to what is seen or heard is again another dhamma. A person who shouts at us is not real in the ultimate sense. There are mere dhammas rolling on. Hearing an unpleasant sound falls away immediately, so why should we think much about it? We may notice that understanding of all such fleeting realities is very beneficial for daily life. Problems can be faced with right understanding. With respect, Nina. #81395 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:40 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Outline of Purification of View V.3 nilovg Hi Larry, Op 19-jan-2008, om 4:30 heeft LBIDD@... het volgende geschreven: > Vism.XI,27: Herein, 'defining' is determining by characterizing > individual essences. ... 'Attention given to elements', the meditation > subject consisting of elements' and 'defining of the four elements' > all > mean the same thing. > > Larry: "discerns the four elements in brief or in detail" consists of > finding hardness (earth element) in all the various parts of the body, > and the same for the other elements. Two paragraphs detail various > ways > of counting these manifestations of elements. ------- N: When we read this we should remember all the time that this is not meant as book knowledge. Even when we read about counting. Hardness of the body apopears, and only when this is realized right now, it can be known that it is a mere element, or a mere dhamma, not my body. If we overlook this, we do not get the essence of the teachings. ---------- > > Vism: ... And when these instances of materiality derived [by > clinging] > from the primaries have thus become plain in detail in the case of > these > forty two aspects, another sixty instances of materiality become plain > with the physical [heart-] basis and the [five] sense doors, that is, > with the heart-basis decad and the five decads beginning with the eye > decad. ------ N: Rupa produced by kamma arises in a decad: the eight inseparable rupas (four great Elements and colour, smell, flavour, nutritive essence present in every group of rupa) and also life faculty and one of the senses or the heartbase. ------- > > Larry: (snipped) > Regarding "kinds of consciousness", rebirth linking, bhavanga, and > death > are functions of one kind of consciousness that also functions as > investigation and registration. It seems unlikely that anyone will > discern rebirth linking, bhavanga, or death consciousness, but one > might > discern investigation or registration. --------- N: Santiira.na is an ahetuka vipaakacitta that can function as rebirth-consciousness in the human plane only in the case of being handicapped from the first moment of life. Registration does not function as rebirth-consciousness. In the human plane there are eight mahaavipaakacittas that can function as rebirth-consciousness. -------- > > L: "Kinds of consciousness" includes kusala and akusala cittas as > well as > kusala and akusala vipaka cittas. It seems unlikely one would discern > all these in one short period. It would more likely happen over a > period > of days, weeks, months, or years. However, the sense I get from this > chapter is that there is a summing up and review of "all this". > There is > a bringing together of all this knowledge into one understanding: > _all_this_ is mentality and materiality. ------ N: I think so too. It depends on the individual what kinds appear to sati and pa~n`naa. Nina. #81396 From: "Alex" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:04 am Subject: Satipatthana and "Bare Observation" myth truth_aerator Hello all, it appears to me (hopefully I am wrong here) that some claim that Buddha has taught "choiceless" or "bare" observation at whatever arises. However this is patently false and we need to go no further than the MN2,10,2 . "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself. same with feelings, mind, dhamma http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html --- Note that there is a choice and it is not simply "bare" observation, you are instructed to focus on one of the 4 satipatthanas in and of itself. This means that you shouldn't thinkg of other satipatthana while doing a chosen one. Furthermore -> ---- 5 ways to deal with thoughts ------ "Now when a monk... attending to another theme... scrutinizing the drawbacks of those thoughts... paying no mind and paying no attention to those thoughts... attending to the relaxing of thought-fabrication with regard to those thoughts... beating down, constraining and crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it: He is then called a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and — through the right penetration of conceit — has made an end of suffering and stress." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html --- To remove all fermentations ·by seeing, (4NT, ideas that lead do dropping of sensuality, becoming, ignorance ) ·by restraining, (the 6 sense-faculties) ·by using, (using the robe, the alms food, lodging, medicinal requisites ... appropriately) ·by tolerating, (cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words & bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. ) ·by avoiding, (wild elephant, a wild horse, a wild bull, a wild dog, a snake, a stump, a bramble patch, a chasm, a cliff, a cesspool, an open sewer ) ·by destroying, (thought of sensuality, ill will, cruelty, evil, unskillful mental qualities) ·by developing. (mindfulness, analysis of qualities, persistence, rapture, serenity, concentration [Jhana], equanimity) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill will... Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of cruelty... Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. The fermentations, vexation, or fever that would arise if he were not to destroy these things do not arise for him when he destroys them. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by destroying. - mn2 ------ These and other quotes should dispell any illusion of "bare" observation which while it is useful at times but isn't the whole picture. Lots of Metta, Alex #81397 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:22 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) nilovg Hi Howard, Op 18-jan-2008, om 22:53 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I understand > that viriya, including viriya in it's form of khanti, is sobhana or > not > depending on whether the current citta is sobhana or not. As for > when the citta is > sobhana, that, I presume, is determined by cetasikas (other than > the viriya) > accompanying that consciousness, because consciousness in and of > itself is > neutral, correct? ------- N: I understand why you think like this, because citta merely cognizes an object. As I wrote in 'Lessons in Detachment" today: Citta merely cognizes an object, and the akusala cetasikas that accompany citta cause it to be impure. Also sobhana cetasikas cause it to be sobhana. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas condition one another by way of conascence-condition and by way of mutuality-condition. Thus, citta is not neutral, it is either kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. Kiriya is translated as inoperative, it arises in a process and also in the case of arahats instead of kusala citta. Nina. #81398 From: upasaka@... Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:07 am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Perfections Corner (74) upasaka_howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/19/2008 11:23:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@... writes: Hi Howard, Op 18-jan-2008, om 22:53 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven: > I understand > that viriya, including viriya in it's form of khanti, is sobhana or > not > depending on whether the current citta is sobhana or not. As for > when the citta is > sobhana, that, I presume, is determined by cetasikas (other than > the viriya) > accompanying that consciousness, because consciousness in and of > itself is > neutral, correct? ------- N: I understand why you think like this, because citta merely cognizes an object. As I wrote in 'Lessons in Detachment" today: Citta merely cognizes an object, and the akusala cetasikas that accompany citta cause it to be impure. Also sobhana cetasikas cause it to be sobhana. Citta and the accompanying cetasikas condition one another by way of conascence-condition and by way of mutuality-condition. Thus, citta is not neutral, it is either kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya. Kiriya is translated as inoperative, it arises in a process and also in the case of arahats instead of kusala citta. Nina. ==================================== Nina, we really see this matter in the same way. Please note that I wrote "consciousness *in and of itself* is neutral." But, of course, consciousness never occurs "in and of itself." This is why I so often say that dhammas are nothing in-and-of-themselves, but are things-in-relation. With metta, Howard #81399 From: "Tep Sastri" Date: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:27 am Subject: Re: Satipatthana and "Bare Observation" myth dhammanusara --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alex" wrote: > > Hello all, > > it appears to me (hopefully I am wrong here) that some claim that > Buddha has taught "choiceless" or "bare" observation at whatever > arises. > > However this is patently false and we need to go no further than the > MN2,10,2 . > > "In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of > itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally > & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the > phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon > of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of > origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his > mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of > knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by > (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains > focused on the body in & of itself. > > same with feelings, mind, dhamma > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.than.html > --- > > Note that there is a choice and it is not simply "bare" observation, > you are instructed to focus on one of the 4 satipatthanas in and of > itself. This means that you shouldn't thinkg of other satipatthana > while doing a chosen one. > > Furthermore -> > > ---- 5 ways to deal with thoughts ------ > "Now when a monk... attending to another theme... scrutinizing the > drawbacks of those thoughts... paying no mind and paying no attention > to those thoughts... attending to the relaxing of thought- fabrication > with regard to those thoughts... beating down, constraining and > crushing his mind with his awareness... steadies his mind right > within, settles it, unifies it and concentrates it: He is then called > a monk with mastery over the ways of thought sequences. He thinks > whatever thought he wants to, and doesn't think whatever thought he > doesn't. He has severed craving, thrown off the fetters, and � > through the right penetration of conceit � has made an end of > suffering and stress." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html > --- > > To remove all fermentations > > �by seeing, (4NT, ideas that lead do dropping of sensuality, > becoming, ignorance ) > > �by restraining, (the 6 sense-faculties) > > �by using, (using the robe, the alms food, lodging, medicinal > requisites ... appropriately) > > �by tolerating, (cold, heat, hunger, & thirst; the touch of flies, > mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles; ill-spoken, unwelcome words & > bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, racking, sharp, > piercing, disagreeable, displeasing, & menacing to life. ) > > �by avoiding, (wild elephant, a wild horse, a wild bull, a wild dog, > a snake, a stump, a bramble patch, a chasm, a cliff, a cesspool, an > open sewer ) > > �by destroying, (thought of sensuality, ill will, cruelty, evil, > unskillful mental qualities) > > �by developing. (mindfulness, analysis of qualities, persistence, > rapture, serenity, concentration [Jhana], equanimity) > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.002.than.html > > There is the case where a monk, reflecting appropriately, does not > tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys > it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. > > Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of > ill will... > > Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate an arisen thought of > cruelty... > > Reflecting appropriately, he does not tolerate arisen evil, > unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels > them, & wipes them out of existence. The fermentations, vexation, or > fever that would arise if he were not to destroy these things do not > arise for him when he destroys them. These are called the > fermentations to be abandoned by destroying. - mn2 > > ------ > These and other quotes should dispell any illusion of "bare" > observation which while it is useful at times but isn't the whole > picture. > > > Lots of Metta, > > Alex > T: As I understand it, bare attention is not the whole Teachings (so you should not expect a whole lot from it); it is just a tool to train mindfulness/awareness in and of itself. I also understand that bare attention is for beginners before they move onto developing the four foundations of mindfulness. Tep ===